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IFH 210: How to Work Creatively with People and Not Kill Each Other

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One of the biggest issues filmmakers, screenwriters and creative types in general have is working with other people. Creativity is very personal to an artist, in any part of the process. I’ve seen first-hand decade-long friendships get destroyed by “creative differences”.

I could see the deterioration of relationships in my edit suite over the years; producers, directors, writers, cinematographers, etc. I personally lost friends along my filmmaking journey because of creative differences.

The biggest problem I see is that people need to set up a clear distribution of responsibilities for each person in the party. Create sandboxes and rules of play in those sandboxes. Miscommunication is death in any relationship.

In this episode, I go over a few techniques that have helped me work creatively with people. I can’t tell how sad it is when you lose a friendship over a project, I hope this episode can help you avoid this unneeded pain. We make movies. We tell stories. We provide entertainment to others. We should be able to build long-lasting creative relationships in this business.

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Alex Ferrari 2:13
Now you guys might hear it in my voice. I have been sick, very sick over the last couple of weeks. It's been really rough holiday season for me and my family. My daughter's brought home this wonderful little bug, which then turned into another bug. And I am now on antibiotics. So my voice is a little bit more Barry White today. So enjoy it while it lasts. But that's why I've been a little slow with the podcast this week. But I'm here and I wanted to get you out one more fresh podcast before the year is out. And this episode is an episode that's very dear to my heart and one of my delusional fevers, I came up with the idea for this episode. Because it's so important and it's one of the more painful areas of of what we do. And it doesn't have to be, I'm going to go over specifically techniques that I've been using over the course of the last years to be able to work with people that you might not have a personal relationship with, and be able to work with them without having to kill each other. And then also how to work with people you have a personal relationship with and not kill each other. And I think the second one's a lot tougher to deal with and a lot tougher to work with because you have a lot of inside information on each other. And I'm going to tell you a story about you know how I lost a few friends along the way. And the differences between how I work now and how I used to work. Now let's start talking about the creative process in general. You know, we are creatives you know, we are people who have a lot of passion behind what we do whether we be directors, cinematographers screenwriters, any any area of production designers, you know, wardrobe, whatever we all have, we're very passionate about what we do. And sometimes, you know, people kind of cross into our sandbox. And that's where a lot of the problems start coming in. I think the biggest problem is miscommunication. And look, there's always going to be and before I get into it, look, there's always going to be acids, there's always going to be people who are going to try to manipulate and and do things and get their way and hurt try to hurt you. Or try to take you down because they want to move ahead. There's all sorts of different kind of political things. I'm talking about just a good honest relationship, which happens, believe it or not in this business. But you know, I'll tell you a story real quick. Once I was working with one of my best friends at the time, and we produced a movie together. I was a director, he was the producer on it, and I was a producer as well. And, you know, it was the first big thing that he'd ever done. And, and I'd been around the block a little bit at that point. But the one problem we had was he wanted a little bit more control of the vision of the The project, and I had been already a director for, you know, 810 years at that point. And he never stepped foot on a set prior to that, and, and he wanted more control over it. And he really didn't understand how the game was played. And it was my fault for not really educating them and setting up boundaries at the beginning. And that was the very beginning of the downfall the project is, while we were on the project, and, you know, actually shooting it was great, you know, we, we both stuck to our own sandboxes. And, you know, he did his job, I did my job. And we were able to get out, you know, with a great product, a great product, the problems were in pre production and post production. And then farther along afterwards. And it was unfortunate, because it took about another year, year and a half after that project was released, that our friendship started deteriorating to a point working there and never was able to recover. And it was very sad, I wish it wouldn't have happened. And a couple things I learned along the way of what I could have done to help that situation along so it wouldn't have happened was one clearly define what our jobs are, clearly define what we were going to do in the project. So there is no miscommunication. So you're like, I'm the director, I'm responsible for this, this, this and this, you're the producer, you're responsible for this, this, this and this, we can, you know, meet here somewhere in the middle, if you want have creative ideas, great. But the end of the day, I have the final say I have the final cut, and so on and so forth. So having a very frank and honest conversation with your collaborator, especially once if it's going to be between a director and a producer, is going to be invaluable to you moving forward. Because if there is that miscommunication where the producer thinks he has more power, or the or the director feels that he or she has more power in his sandbox, whether on the more on the production side of stuff, or there's more the writer has more feels it has more control more authorship over the project than the director, these are problems that will fester. And if they do not be if they're not taken care of right away, they will fester, they will blow up. And the bigger the bigger the guys and girls that you're working with, the bigger these fights can turn into and you've seen it. You've seen it, you know with Josh tank in fantastic for you just recently saw it with the solo movie, then the new Star Wars movie that they fired the two directors because of creative differences. And it was obviously a miscommunication. Because those directors came in thinking that they wanted their flavor of stuff. And Disney or Lucas Films like wait a minute, wait, we can't make it this funny. And all of a sudden, they're like, Well, you know, why did you hire these guys then? And there was a miscommunication. And that was just lack of communication, on really laying down what was going to happen. It was a failure on both parts, in my opinion. So laying out what your job titles are, is, is one, two, asking the person you're collaborating with what the what outcome do they want for this project? is such an important question to ask. So if you're a director, and you're hiring a producer, or working with a producer on a project, and you both are, you know, 5050 partners on it, and you know, you want to get it out there the question you have to ask like, Okay, what do you What's your outcome for this movie? What do you want to do with this movie? Is it a money grab? Is it to get your name out there? Do you care about making money with it? Is it only about money? What what's the point of this? Is it about getting the message out there? What is the point of this endeavor? And if you guys are have two different answers, this is a problem. Because if you want to get it out there just to promote yourself as a director, you really don't care if it makes money. But the producer is like no, no, no, no, we have to we have $150,000 here that we've borrowed, and we got to make our money back on this. And so it's about the money. That's why we have to cast this person. And all of a sudden, the two, the two point of views, the two end points of the project are completely different that project is and is going to fail, it will fail because the team is not coherent. It's not they're not together on their end goal on their end vision. So you really have to understand where each of you are coming from, you know, and, again, for screenwriters for I'm talking about producers and directors with screenwriters are the same thing. You have to talk to your screenwriter. What's your goal with this? Do you just want to get paid out? Do you want to get your name on IMDB? Do you want to get a movie produced? What is your end goal on this? answering these questions will prevent so so many problems. I can't even explain to you. And not only from my own personal experience that I've gone through a lot of this kind of hardship working with with other people sometimes. I've seen it in my edit room. I've seen relationships deteriorate in front of my eyes in editing and And you know, the final stages of deliverables, because I just see what happens. I hear all the stories about what happened, and what's going on and the drama. And, you know, why is this movie have 20 Executive Producers on it, I'm not even joking, I did a movie that 20 Executive Producers on it with 20 different points of view, not to mention the director, the stars, the main producers, the distributors, it was Miss she just could, I can't even explain to you how crazy it was. But understanding that when you're working on these little indie movies, you really have to have a very clear vision of where you want the movie to go, and what the outcome is that you're going for. Because if it's not on the same page, you guys will fail. And this is where relationships start get deteriorating. And when you're working with people that you you know, your friends, you know, I worked at a project once with a dp friend of mine. And he, you know, was friendly, friendly, friendly, friendly. We'd known each other for a few years, he was coming on board doing me a few a bunch of solids. And boy, I tell you, when I got on set, he was a complete ass. He was showboating for other people on the crew, he did not have my back, I had to kind of save it in color. Because I didn't feel that he did the greatest job he could in the project. And, and overall, I learned a big lesson that day, I was like, wow, not that day, that project, you know, and that was the end, that was the beginning of the end of that relationship, because of the way he treated me. And where I was in a very tough situation. He didn't have my back. And that was, again, a miscommunication. He had very different goals than helping me make my movie, he wanted something cool for his demo reel. And that was very evident, with the way he shot it. And his attitude towards me, he didn't care at all about my movie getting made, or that I had put up a lot of money to make it. But unfortunately, it was. So these are these are hardships, these are things that they will not teach you in film, school. These are things that a lot of people don't like to talk about. But it is the honest truth. And we hear about it every day, we hear about creative blow ups every day. And those two main questions, I think are what can solve a lot of pain and suffering from this process, you have to set up clear goals for what the movie where the project that you're working on, is going to be, and that everybody is on the same page, on how to sell it, how it's going to be distributed, what the end goal as far as money is concerned, how you're going to market it in every other aspect of the production and making of the movie, you have to understand what those goals are. And secondly, you have to set up very clear divisions of labor on a professional set. This is not a problem, you know, the director is a director, you know, the DP is the DP, the producers, the producer, the production designer, the production center, and so on. But on indie movies, a lot of times, you're not dealing with very seasoned professionals, you're not dealing with guys who've been doing this, or girls have been doing this for 20 years, you're gonna be dealing with new people. And that's where the problem lies. So you've got to be very clear as leaders in your project, whether you're the producer, the director, or both, you really got to lay down the long go, this is what you're responsible for, and you've got to do it. Sure. Sometimes, sometimes things will overlap. You know, like when I work with a dp, there's directors who work with DPS in a way that they're like, I don't even want to know what the lens is. I don't even want to know what what the camera is just show me the picture when it's done. And that's all I care about. Unfortunately, I'm not that kind of director. I'm a director who can speak the same language as a dp because I've shot myself, I'm very tech heavy, since I'm doing the posts on top of them in regards to things. So I'm much more, I cross into the DP sandbox a lot more when I work with a cinematographer. And we collaborate a lot more, you know, so it all depends on what kind of director and DP you are. But then you got to make sure you find a collaborator who's willing to do that. There's other DPS with like, get out of my sandbox, I'm like, Well, no, we can't work together. Because that's not the way I work. So you have to have these conversations beforehand. Because if you don't imagine getting on set, and you want a little bit more control over the light, or you know the lights or camera or lenses, and the DP is like, you know, get out of my head, my, my, my side kid, I'm going to do whatever I'm going to do, and that's the end of it. That happened to Steven Spielberg. When he first started out, he was dealing with a lot of these big, so old, salty DPS. And he was really trying to get into it and they wouldn't even talk to them. You know, especially, you know, working on, you know, on television in this in the 70s. It's so it happens. It definitely happens but have these conversations if you have the sense of power and a sense of power. But if you have the power, and in these indie projects, you should be very clear about what those divisions of labor are. And if you can answer those two main questions, a lot of these painful situations can be eliminated from your filmmaking journey. So I hope this episode helped you out a little bit, guys, it was something that was a short one. But it's something I really wanted to get off my chest and wanted to see if I can help you guys out a little bit as well, because I know, I know somebody listening right now is going through this as we speak, or has gone through it recently. Or we'll go through it in the near future. So I hope it helps you guys out. Now, I want to I want to give a shout, I want to give a call out to anybody in the indie film, hustle tribe, I'm going to be going to Sundance this year, coming up in a few weeks, and I am looking for a sound person, I'm looking for a sound person, preferably if they live here in LA, which would be great. And we're going to be able to fly you out to to LA to hang out with me and the tribe, you know, the our crew and everything, we're going to be shooting a bunch of interviews out there for indie film hustle. And we're looking for a professional sound person that can come out and help us out for like four or five days. So if you guys are interested in anybody out there, you know, fits that bill, please email me at [email protected]. Send me your resume, send me links to your website, your IMDb and everything like that. Preferably, if you have some feature experience, interview experience as well, that'd be great. But again, just email me at [email protected]. And I hope to have a tribe member with me at Sundance this year, helping us out. So I want to try to have as many of you guys there as possible. And we're going to be there from January 18 to the 23rd. But am I mistaken. And you know, if you guys are going to be out of Sundance, hit me up, see if we can hook up and see if we can get a little get together of the tribe and get some drinks. And you know, there's gonna be a party on Saturday night that we throw every year that would be a great party. If you're in the area, you're more than welcome to come on in and say hi, it's a insane party that we throw on Main Street every year. So just email me at [email protected]. And this is going to be the last episode of a new fresh episode of for the year of 2017, which has been an amazing year for me. And for the tribe. I know I've heard so many great things about what you guys have been doing so, so happy that indie film hustle has been able to help you guys along your path and journey. Tomorrow, we're gonna release a throwback Friday. And then Monday, we have an epic New Year's Day episode, which I'm going to be recording tomorrow. And the surprise guest is a big, big, big deal in the world of getting you up off of your ass to go do something. So I cannot wait to share that news with you as well. And don't forget Monday, New Year's Day starts the Ask Alex show on YouTube. Every day, I'm going to be releasing a new episode of the Ask Alex show. And that will be for 31 days where I'm doing a consulting session with members of the tribe. And so we'll be going a question a day. Sometimes the questions are two minutes sometimes or 10. All depends on the situation. So it's a lot of great information. I had a ball doing it. If it's something that you guys want to see more and more of, let me know. I'll know by how many likes I get on YouTube. I'll know by how many views I get on YouTube, if you like it, share it, get it out there, but it's gonna be at indiefilmhustle.com/YouTube, it'll go right to the channel. And I got all sorts of other crazy stuff coming up for the new year as well, guys. So thanks again for an amazing 2017 the growth of indie film hustle has been amazing. And I'm so happy that we're reaching more and more people around the world. So thanks again. As always, I am humbled. Always humbled to serve you guys on your filmmaking journey. As always, keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 209: Directing Studio Feature Films in Hollyweird with Demian Lichtenstein

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Today’s guest is director Demian Lichtenstein. I had the pleasure of being on a panel with Demian at a film festival a few weeks ago. His generous approach to sharing his experience, knowledge and Hollywood war stories was breathtaking. I had to have him on the show to drop some knowledge and truth bombs on the IFH Tribe.

Demian has amassed a vast body of work in the music video industry since receiving his BFA from New York University in 1988, leading to his current status as a feature film director. Some past projects include directing Music Videos for Sting & Eric Clapton, Grandmaster Caz, Shabba Ranks, Queen Latifah, West of Eden (Best Independent Video/MTV 1987), Cypress Hill, Gloria Estefan, Sony, Warner Bros, Columbia Pictures, MCA, Epic, Island, Atlantic, Tommy Boy, IRS Records, World Hunger Project, and the Multiple Sclerosis Society.

Demian is a member of the DGA (Director’s Guild of America) and was Chairman of the New York Independent Film Coalition for two years and has directed, produced, written, photographed, taped and/or recorded audio on over 225 features, short films, music videos, commercials, and concerts.

Demian Lichtenstein directed the cult classic [easyazon_link identifier=”B00005LDDB” locale=”US” tag=”whatisbroke-20″]3000 Miles to Graceland[/easyazon_link] starring Kevin Costner, Kurt Russell, and Christian Slater.

He also shadowed James Cameron on the set of Avatar for a bit but we’ll get into that as well. Enjoy my conversation with Demian Lichtenstein.

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Alex Ferrari 1:29
I have director, filmmaker, entrepreneur Damien Lichtenstein. He is a director that I met on a panel I did on a film festival a few weeks ago. And I gotta tell you, Damian blew my mind when he was sitting next to me what he was, you know, telling these kids that were in the audience. And you know, we were there to scare the hell out of them. And I think we did a good job. But Damien was just a wealth of information. He was so generous and kind, but yet harsh and real about his message. And I said, I got to have him on the show. And Dmian has been directing for years in Hollywood, and he has been inside the Hollywood system, has worked with amazing people. He was also director of the cult classic 3000 miles to Graceland, starring Kevin Costner, Kurt Russell. And Christian Slater was such a fun movie. And I really wanted to talk to him about how he got a project like that off the ground, how he got, you know, arguably, at the time that he made this movie, Kevin Costner was one of the biggest movie stars in the world, you know, and how he was able to get Kevin and Kurt Russell, he's legendary actors to work with him and get this project off the ground. So we do talk about that in this interview. And he really talks about the inner workings of Hollywood, the good, the bad, and the ugly. And we'll also talk about his new company, futurism entertainment, and the world of creative VR, and all the cool stuff he doing with that, and he also shadow James Cameron on the set of avatar for a little while and and there's some wise words that he talked about with James as well. So this is just a really information knowledge bomb packed episode. I'm so excited to bring it to you guys. So while any further ado, here is my conversation with Damien Lichtenstein. I like to welcome to the show, Damien Lichtenstein. Thank you, man, so much for being on the show. I really appreciate it.

Demian Lichtenstein 4:48
It's my pleasure. I'm happy to be here.

Alex Ferrari 4:51
Yeah, we were doing that panel at that film festival a few weeks ago, and you were you were blowing my mind when you were sitting next to me. Some of the stuff that you were spouting out to the audience, I'm like, I have to have you on the show. You have to say these things to my audience. So I do again, appreciate you dropping, hopefully going to be dropping some good knowledge bombs, and some truth bombs on the on the foam tribe.

Demian Lichtenstein 5:16
I'm all about truth bombs and knowledge bonds. On occasion, since you know, I'm in Hollywood, I've been known to be completely full of it. So I'll do my best not to be.

Alex Ferrari 5:30
Thank you, man. So how did you get into business in the first place? Why? Why did you want to get into this crazy business?

Demian Lichtenstein 5:35
That's a great question. There are multiple answers. I have always been fascinated by the frame. There was an image of me when I was a baby like one and a half years old sitting on top of one of my father's freshly just sewed paint canvases. I had crawled onto the canvas that was still drawing with a white, you know, background paint that is applied to almost all canvases. And then I had picked up a brush and I had started painting around me. And I had a very early relationship to the frame. Both of my parents were artists, both of them painters and sculptors and puppeteers so I, I grew up in this, this world of art and creativity and bore witness to it at a burly very early age. Skip to my parents were divorced and my mother lived in Vermont, my father lived in New York City. And I found myself growing up in the art community and Soho in New York City. And my mother in Vermont ran the Vermont Council on the Arts, which included everything from painters to filmmakers, and musicians and everyone in between. So every weekend, my mother's home was like, kind of like the who's who of artists that were in the state living or visiting and hanging out. So I was surrounded by art and creativity at an early age and in New York. A similar with my father. You know, I found myself in a lot of the, you know, in my early days and my youth surrounded by extraordinary artists. Um, you know, a side note, I crashed Andy Warhols Painted Jaguar on my prom night, just to give you an example of how embedded in that world I was. The but if I'm really going to just, you know, take pieces of it. I was an off Broadway child actor, professional paid at the age of eight. And I got into an argument as a, you know, precocious punky child actor with the director. And because I didn't agree with his direction for my character, and he pulled me aside and quite harsh tone said, you know, one day when you're the director, kid, you can do it any way you want. From now on, and for the rest of this show, you'll do exactly what I said. And I went home that night and announced that I was now a director. Because they got to tell people what to do, which I think is an eight year old kid is quite fascinating. The and then filmmaking, the my mother, one of her hobbies was photography. And she would take me on top of the mountain in Vermont and she had a Canon and that's probably why I like Canon cameras today. And she would tell me to pick a lens and from that lens, she would tell me to pick a shot. And then I explained to her that I wasn't really clear what the difference in the lenses were and what it meant. And she started educating me on this issue. And I had one really incredible moment with her that she I'll never forget probably because she told me never to forget it. Which is that I picked an 85 millimeter portrait lens and we were sitting on a sun dappled mountainside with ancient moss covered rock walls and tall pine trees and you You know, huge, beautiful maple trees and birds and deer in the meadow and the old farm on the other, you know, mountain side and cows in the distance. And it was just incredibly beautiful. And I was looking and looking and looking and looking. And I put the camera down and I didn't take a picture and she said, What's wrong? I said, I don't know which picture to take. And she said, What do you mean? I said, it's also beautiful, what if I take the wrong one. And she said, Ah, she has, you know, I want to tell you something as an artist, and I want you to never forget this. And I said, Okay. And she said, it's just as important, perhaps even more important, what you leave out of the frame is what you put in it. And in that moment, the wind kind of blew and kicked her hair back, and she turned her face up to the sun, and I swung my portrait lens around, and took what I think was my first best shot of my life, which was a close up of my mother's face turned to the sun. You know, and that I think, on many levels has driven my life and my career. Always looking at, it's just as important what I leave out of the frame is what I put in, and that has held true. And all of my endeavors especially when I forget that great wisdom, and I find myself or in the past had found myself in a heap of trouble. And then remember, you know, what, am I not choosing to leave out of the frame? You know, and in Hollywood and other places in life, that can mean a lot, right? You know, what are you leaving out? What what situations people's, you know, do you choose to leave out of the frame? And what situations opportunities and people do you choose to put in your frame. So I think as a filmmaker, it's super critical to have a real clarity on what you're putting in your frame. Now cut two, I was very fascinated with model building. And I built a lot of diagramas that's like a, you know, two feet square board and on it like a, you know, like a French, you know, hillside with a German tank coming through the stone wall and, you know, a p 51 Mustang on a little steel rod coming in, you know, to shoot the tank, etc. Like I really got into it. I mean, I would paint the little color of the eyes of the tank commander and the pilot and I was really, really, really detailed. And then I would look at it for a while and then when my mother or my stepfather weren't around, I would remember this is Vermont. So I go to the gun closet and I would empty out, you know, some shotgun shells of the gunpowder and tie it up in a little bag, put a fuse on it, like blow it up, right. And several times my mother had to pick the chunks of shrapnel out of my face because I stood way too close to make sure I had a good image in my mind what I just blew up. And when I built a really big diagram, my mom said to me, before you blow this up, I'm like What are you talking about? I'm not going to blow it up. But right before you blow this up, I have a present for you wait till I get home. And she came home and she unwrapped a bell and howl super eight film nice. And she showed me how to use it and how to click that super eight cartridge in and explain to me the process of a zoom lens and showed me how I could stand 1015 feet away have a friend of mine light the fuse and runaway and I could film it. And I did and I watched that one film, probably, I don't know, two 300 times I don't remember until the film literally shredded and the projector and from that moment if you cut to a year later I've got like eight farm kids, you know, letting be 17 that are stuffed with cotton balls and lighter fluid on fishing line flying through the trees. We've got a bunch of firecrackers lined up in front of a bunch of tanks and fish fuses and like the plague like the fuse and I back then I didn't understand that you could get separate shots. I just tried to take

Alex Ferrari 14:59
No wonder I got it.

Demian Lichtenstein 15:03
And that really began my filmmaking career. Because it was the fun thing to do. And, you know, I had ready accessible, you know, talent and crews and kids and people that would do crazy stuff, you know.

Alex Ferrari 15:21
That's, that's an awesome story. And you've been, you know, the one thing I found so fascinating about you, and I can, you know, I can almost smell it and feel it off of you when I was sitting next to you. And when, and we had a chance to sit and talk later, is that you've, you've been around the block a few times here in Hollywood, and you've, you know, you've seen shrapnel, without question. And that's what I found fascinating about you that you were one of these guys that have gone through the system have been in the systems to work in the system. But yet you were still very giving, and you were still very kind with your knowledge. Can you explain a little bit about your journeys? And that's a very large question, your journeys through Hollywood? And kind of like, what are what are some of the things that filmmakers need to look out for, especially when they're starting to, to kind of walk into the Hollywood system? And if they're lucky enough to ever walk in that door? But what are some things you got to kind of look out for in your opinion?

Demian Lichtenstein 16:22
I think what you should look out for is can be, you know, phrased into what should you as a independent filmmaker, a new filmmaker, even a seasoned one be looking for? The, the reality? You know, I think the panel we were on was kind of like how to break into the business.

Alex Ferrari 16:48
We scared the hell out of them that day.

Demian Lichtenstein 16:50
I think we scared them good. And and I remember saying, if you can think of anything else that you would rather do in the world than this, yes, then go do that. No harm, no foul. Like, you know, I'm being a filmmaker, so that one day I can buy a fishing boat and live in the Bahamas and go fishing every day. Yeah, then go to the Bahamas, and go to work for a fishing boat. Work your way up to the system until one day, your boss offers you the boat. And then one day you buy it from him right? That go do that don't be a filmmaker, right? There is this be a filmmaker. Because there's nothing else you can do with yourself in your life, because you're driven to be a filmmaker, or an actor or cinematographer or director or producer or writer, you can be an you know, a hyphenate filmmaker, or you can specialize, if you you know, have a specialty then specialize quickly. And what you love to do. You know, if it's cinematography, or if it's costume design, or whatever it is, there are so many specialized things within the industry. But if your passion is to be a director, then as an I'll use director as an example. Then go and, you know, look at all the great movies of the past the great movies of today. And what you think you know, would be the filmmakers you would follow in the future, and then go to those filmmakers and offer yourself as a mentee as an intern. And while you're doing and I'd literally mean that if you if I I don't want to take away from a university degree or college education I, I have mine and I want to give it back for anything, I think they're really important. Yet at the same token, if you're going to find yourself coming out of school only $100,000 in debt and student loans and discover, discover that the world is not your oyster in this arena and not open to you that the kid that you rolled out of high school with, you know, is now a senior executive. You know, the Hot Shot producer directors company that you wish you could get a foot in the door at because he or she went and spent four years in the ditches in the dirt proving themselves and this is kind of like I don't know if it's time for the dojo analogy.

Alex Ferrari 19:50
Yeah, I was gonna I was gonna be there. My next question actually.

Demian Lichtenstein 19:53
Yeah. My example that I know you brought it up to me again, was that you come to me My studio, I have a small studio, if I look out my office right now, there are four extremely competent people working, you know very hard on one project we've been developing for over five years. So when you walk in my door, you know, it's great that you, you have a script, the likelihood of that script being something I'm interested in doing are pretty close to zero. Even though I might get lucky, and you never know, and it might be the most brilliant thing ever written. And I can't believe that you brought it to me. But regardless of that, the people that are actively working in the business, the way I reference it for either professionals, or newbies that come into my space into my studio is like a dojo. And what I specifically mean by that, you know, kind of like, you know, The Karate Kid with the wax on wax off conversation, I actually spent, you know, decades in a dojo, literally, and what did that look like, it means I came in as a white belt, and I paid the master money to teach me how to become initially competent. And then if I wanted to, eventually a master, in that particular form of martial art, I had to wipe the floor with my hands, you know, I had to sweep, I had to clean the toilets, I had to, you know, it's kind of like I referenced the Kill Bill, when you know, you wanted to go like Chinese kung fu master, and you're carrying rocks and water upstairs and you're being you know, abused and beaten. And you're having a punch your knuckles against, you know, a tree or a wall until they're cracked and split and bleeding. That's kind of what it's like, it is a dojo. And when you come into my dojo, I am a 12 degree Master black belt, in my particular discipline, I have been training and developing myself, literally, since I was eight years old

Alex Ferrari 22:25
As a filmmaker, you're talking about that,

Demian Lichtenstein 22:27
Right! as a filmmaker, since I was a as a filmmaker, and if you really want to, you know, slice it to the core, okay, since I was 10, okay, but I consider my professional acting career essential to myself as a director and a filmmaker, as a child actor, I really understand actors at the core level, which is that they're all children inside looking to express themselves in a way that brings them closer to their original source experience of life, you know, um, but regardless of that conversation, the in my office, you are in a dojo, you are speaking to a master of this discipline, and this particular style. Often, it's funny, because as a master, I'm paying you to train me instead of you paying me, most people would be better off going to a filmmaker production company, and saying, I would like to offer my services as a free intern for one year, I will pay 100% of my own housing, my own costs, my own schooling, etc. And I will be of service to this company. And if I survive the year here, and you believe that I am a value to this company, then I would like you to give me the first available and, you know, lowest paid position, so that I can work my way up and learn from the ground up. That's like entering with the mindset of a white belt, who's intent on becoming a black belt. So it's important for filmmakers to understand that when you're talking to someone who has actually made feature films at the studio level or independent films, or television series or whatever, they have mastered a discipline and they deserve in principle, your respect. If they do things that no longer deserve your respect, as we see happening in Holly today, yes, the Weinstein's and some of the other people that And trouble, then don't give them your respect. But you know, not for a microsecond, you should not put up with any form of harassment, I'm not talking about harassment, I'm talking about the discipline of being of service to those who have been in the trenches, and have been on the mat and have been in full contact knocked down martial arts tournaments, mostly longer than most of those new incoming people have been alive.

Alex Ferrari 25:35
Kind of like that analogy used, which was a great analogy, as well as a, you know, you're the season guy who has been in the trenches for the, you know, in this war for, you know, a year and then the new recruit comes in, bouncing, bouncing away. And the first thing you said, like, you stay away from me, cuz you're gonna get me killed. Exactly. There's a difference between enthusiasm, you know, and stupidity, there's a fine line,

Demian Lichtenstein 26:05
It is a fine line. So, you know, the, the, the dojo analogy is really good, from the perspective of, you know, understand that you're entering a Masters space, and that that master has 100,000 things they could teach you, right. But the first one you want to learn is respect, discipline, commitment. And, in turn that respect, you know, and that commitment, will, will come to you, I, and at the same time, that you're being of service to a very qualified, creative person,

Alex Ferrari 26:57
And then that and that's I didn't mean to cut you off. But that's something that's very, you should make a point of is like, whoever you do do this with, they have to be, you know, you should be not giving it to any schmo off the street, you should do your research.

Demian Lichtenstein 27:09
Do your research. Yeah, that's why I said at the top of the conversation, well, you know, watch the great films, you know, it's really hard for a qualified filmmaker to be sitting there in a conversation and talking about movies. And they might reference something like, well, for example, in Lawrence of Arabia, and they go, Lawrence of what

Alex Ferrari 27:36
I've got I, I was I was years ago, I was I was working with a music video director, who was like the hottest music video director in the world at the time. And I said, Oh, and I was color grading something for him. I'm like, so you want me to do is kind of like Blade Runner? And he's like, blade? What? And I'm like, Are you kidding me?

Demian Lichtenstein 27:54
Exactly. And that's, that's one of the problems of today, is that you? You were in a new culture, by the way, okay. And the culture we're in right now is the instant gratification culture of Give it to me on my, you know, iPhone, instantly. And I only have time to absorb, you know, three minute clips. Okay. If that's the case, for us, a wide section of the global marketplace, then you have a very unique opportunity. That unique opportunity, is that, you know, I'm not even talking about the iPhone 10. That's just coming out. But you can take an iPhone, or you can take, you know, any other camera phone, if you will, and you have enough sound and image quality on there to shoot a short two minute three minute project today, absolutely. You know, and at the same token, if you want it to be more professional, with a laptop and $1,000 cat, you can get a camera that shoots 4k for $1,000. Now,

Alex Ferrari 29:16
Yeah.

Demian Lichtenstein 29:18
So you can go out and you can shoot a 4k short film, and cut it on your laptop and do music and sound effects and titling and basic color grading, etc, etc. You can do all that right now and then deliver that content. And by the way, there are a lot of people that are doing it. So the tools to creation have never been more accessible than ever before. That's why I used to lead a seminar called shut the EFF up and shoot because, um, you know, my my example is I would stand actors And I would ask them, when's the last time they had any sort of significant role in anything?

Alex Ferrari 30:09
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Demian Lichtenstein 30:20
And then I would ask them, How many hours a week, then a month, then a year? Do you spend going to auditions? And there's nothing wrong with auditioning? It's a great learning tool. And how much gas money does it cost you? How much parking money does it cost you? How much food money does it cost you because 99.9% of time, you have to park yourself, feed yourself by yourself. And if you aggregate that time and that money, then I say to that actor, instead of having done all those auditions, auditions for one year, you could have shot an extraordinary short film. And if the group of you gang up and do it together, then you could shoot a feature. So I really what I tried to dive into for you know, filmmakers, is and people all other ilk is, you know, two things. What do you what do you want to look out for? Well look out for bullshit artists. Look out for people who specifically are doing nothing, but using you to advance their agenda and have zero interest in you. Okay, it's, uh, that that is something to look out for. Look out for, you know, all the and hopefully, there'll be a shift a change in Hollywood with what's going on right now. With all the misconduct allegations that are coming to the surface, and look out for you know, having your creative heart or soul, you know, abused in any way. You're better off. Now, this is real critical, you know, on the street advice, you're better off finding a great young attorney, becoming friends with that attorney. And having that attorney, then you are with having an agent or a manager, the attorney is more important than the agent or the manager want to be very clear about that. Okay, the attorney, remember, even on the panel when the people were talking about Wow, if I'd had an attorney?

Alex Ferrari 32:51
Hmm, yeah, you're right. You're absolutely right that people always forget about the attorney, because the agent and the manager get all the spotlight.

Demian Lichtenstein 32:57
Yeah. But they're not the ones that protect you. I don't move very, very rare that a agent or manager will protect you, I'm sorry, to my agent and managing friends to say that but very rare. Who's going to protect you in any contractual situation, as your attorney, even if you go and make that little film, I'm highly suggesting that you go out and make. You want to make sure that you pay for that project. You want to make sure that the script is copyrighted with the United States Copyright Office. By the way, everybody w ga registrations don't mean anything in a court of law, nothing. Nothing, nothing. mailing it to yourself. doesn't mean much either. Right? What mean something? Is the United States copyright form P a registration of that material. But mean something is that anybody who touches that material, ie, well, let me just work on the script over the weekend for you. I know you're tired. Anyone who touches the material has a contractual agreement with you that their creative work belongs to the material, not to them, right. Otherwise, the answer is, look, I really appreciate your help. But if I if you can't sign off on something called a CFA, that's a certificate of authorship. Okay, and that you waive all your droit moral rights, ie, the this belongs to the project not to you. All of these things become super critical that your actor sign off if you're using sag actors then, you know, you get a SAG new media agreement in place and if you're paying everybody you know $10 a can of coke and a slice of pizza then that's what you're paying them. But you have everything In writing, because that little project you make, hits it in any way. And suddenly you have an offer out of, you know, not left field ever, it's out of the hard work that you as a filmmaker, or a group of committed filmmakers created. And then Netflix comes along, or Apple or Amazon or any of the other people that are now becoming movie and television studios. That if you don't have it buttoned up legally, then you're in trouble.

Alex Ferrari 35:35
Right? They won't,

Demian Lichtenstein 35:36
They won't touch it. So this is like a critical thing. Yes, it's, it's, it's great to have agents and managers. They're nowhere near as critical as your friendly attorney.

Alex Ferrari 35:52
Now, you talked a little bit about, you know, mentoring, and you know, walking into the dojo as a white belt, you did mention that you happen to shadow James Cameron on avatar. So can you please tell me what that was like? And I'm assuming you walked in as very much as a white belt in that scenario.

Demian Lichtenstein 36:12
I did you know what, what happened is, I'm in the Directors Guild of America, which I highly recommend.

Alex Ferrari 36:21
I would love adjust me I'm waiting for the moment to get in

Demian Lichtenstein 36:25
The end, it is possible to get in the Directors Guild wants the you and other directors to come in. Or they don't want you not to be a part of it, because they know that it's the new voices that matter, right. That's why I'm on the board of new filmmakers of La because they're you we have to get back into the community of creators, our knowledge and etc. But it's also the same at the DGA at the Directors Guild of America, I'm a co founding member of the Leadership Council of the DGA. A lot of the Leadership Council work is in the political arena now, literally meeting with, you know, the biggest politicians in the United States. And discussing the issues that concern creative rights, intellectual property rights, filmmaking, runaway production, etc, etc. And it's a nonpartisan group formed by Republicans, independents, Green Party Democrats. What we all have at core is that we're members of the Directors Guild. And we're committed to providing the structures that policy level that support filmmaking in the United States and abroad. So it's a you know, it's a weighty group. And so that helps

Alex Ferrari 38:00
You get

Demian Lichtenstein 38:01
Yeah, so the answer is there is that being a part of all of that. One of the things that happened was that Steven Spielberg and James Cameron, also, Jeffrey Katzenberg, at the time came to talk to a large group of assembled directors about the necessity for everyone to learn how to create 3d films The right way, because if we do it the wrong way, it'll become a fad rather than a new form of art. Right, like a resurgence of an old form into a new form of avatar. You know, and I stood up and I said, Look, that's really really easy. No offense, Jim, for you, and Steven, for you. And Jeffrey, for you to sit there and say that to us. But you're James Cameron, and Steven Spielberg. Most of us sitting in the audience are just figuring out how to pay our rent or mortgage, you know, and put our kids through school or you know, the alimony bill, so to speak. It's like we have to be trained and educated by you as the Masters in this, because we're all white belts. That's what I said your black belts were white belts. Right? And, and then Jim said, well, then why don't you come to school and learn that?

Alex Ferrari 39:35
And I'm sure everybody in there was like, why didn't I stand up?

Demian Lichtenstein 39:39
Yes. What, which then began a relationship with Jim that I'm not a close friend of gyms. It is we share By the way, the same business manager and I and I'm in the middle of potentially really helping his team out with some really radical new technology that would help him and would help Peter Jackson in the pursuit of the movies. They're creating Avatar and beyond. And but if i that is years later, right, this is almost a decade later, right? But if I hadn't done that, if I hadn't stood up, stood up, and I hadn't said, Look, I'll be a white belt in your school. And I have gone and And literally, you know, you have to strip away all your ego, all your knowledge, all what you think, you know. And stand the not in the shadow, but in the light of a master who's at the forefront of creating, which is what I had the honor and the privilege to do with Jim.

Alex Ferrari 40:54
So how, how was that experience? Because he was literally creating the technology as he was shooting almost, wasn't he, the avatar?

Demian Lichtenstein 41:03
He was and what happened, I think what's, you know? I mean, it's the one thing I can tell you is that it's difficult to be in the presence of an actual genius, when you suddenly discovered for yourself that you're not one.

Alex Ferrari 41:24
You know, what, Russell carpenter who was on the show as well, he said the exact same thing about Jim, after Titanic, the True Lies.

Demian Lichtenstein 41:31
Yeah, I mean, that's, that's what you're dealing with the gym that the man is operating on another level. So multiple levels he's playing, you're playing single board chess, and he's playing holographic chess with 20 levels. And, and remembers every single chess move he made on every board instantaneously. Right? The It's an extraordinary thing to watch. Now, I think what really happened for me was I had a sudden, they call it a sea change or a shift. And where I suddenly understood that I really needed to understand technology, that I needed to understand how the movie industry was going to be shifting, where technology was going to come into play, at a level beyond my current capacity to understand. I had to look at what were the problems being faced by filmmakers, when Jim was making avatar? And what were the problems I was experiencing as a filmmaker with new technology. And at the same time, as all that was happening, I was also looking at, in the world of entertainment, where are the biggest gains? Where's the most money being made? where, you know, and I started getting a lot of those answers were pretty easy to understand. And, you know, for me, it was like, you have to understand that everything is shifting towards AI, artificial intelligence and quantum computing, I better start understanding a little bit about AI and quantum computing. We have 3d, I better start understanding a little bit about 3d, digital camera systems. And then you really discover for anyone that makes films and really deals with post production work. You understand that rendering is probably one of the biggest issues. So rendering technologies and where was all that shifting? And then also, again, where were the biggest gains being made financially, and they weren't in movies, it was in gaming, video gaming, specifically. So then, and I and Jim was making a video game of Avatar and I was putting together a big 3d action movie and I decided I wanted to make a video game out of it. And I wanted to do a 3d video game and then you suddenly understand you're not just rendering a second camera I it's more like you're rendering four separate eyes at the same time. So all of these things started culminating in shifting my perspective into something of I would say, I'm as much a futurist now,

Alex Ferrari 44:42
Because I am a filmmaker. And this all came about purely because you shadowed James Cameron on the set of avatar for a handful of days. Correct. And you told me on the set on the set on your last day, I think you said when you tell Jim Hey, I've got to go gym, I'd stay here forever, but I got to go make a living. He what was the best advice you received from James, if you can recap that for everybody.

Demian Lichtenstein 45:12
We broke for lunch. And he and I sat down alone. The whole crew was out there and, and he really he said some really great and empowering things to me. But what I said was I said, Okay great with with, with everything that I've seen, I'm learning that I can interpolate with everything that's going on. And, you know, knowing that I have to get back to you know, my creative life, and you've got a huge endeavor in front of you. What, what is your single greatest piece of parting advice? And he said, Well, I'm gonna answer your question with another question, Damian. But first, I think I'll start with a statement. And what he said was, which felt good, even though I don't know that's true. But he said, You know, you're as good a filmmaker as any of us. You're a filmmaker, is what I need to ask you. Is, since Lucas discovered his, for all intents and purposes, Steven, and he met Spielberg discovered his Peter was really his partner on the avatar shows Peter Jackson. Peter certainly had discovered his, and even with all my success, I finally discovered mine. The question is, what's yours?

Alex Ferrari 47:05
What are those things that he was saying that he found?

Demian Lichtenstein 47:10
What his vision was for himself as a filmmaker, for his life for Lucas was Star Wars. Right? As an example, for Cameron. It's avatar? Yep. What's yours? And I looked him right in the eye and quite sheepishly and maybe intelligently said, you know, Jim, I have no fucking idea. And he looked at me and nodded his head. And he said, when you figure that out, when you discover for yourself what yours is, then everything else you need to do will be self evident.

Alex Ferrari 48:01
That's amazing advice.

Demian Lichtenstein 48:04
And we chatted about some other things. And then he got up and, you know, did his thing. tosses played out and was walking back to set and I was standing watching him go, and then he stopped. And he turned and he looked at me, and he said, and one more fucking thing. I said, Yeah, he goes, make sure it's a love story. And then he kept walking.

Alex Ferrari 48:31
That's brilliant. That's because you know what, and I think all of his movies, he has some sort of love story. And everyone, every single one from aliens to a BIST to everyone through lies to terminators. They all have a love story,

Demian Lichtenstein 48:48
Avatar, all of them. They all revolve around the essential need of a human being, to fall in love, or to be loved, be loved, or to rediscover that, who they really are at the core of their being is love. So that's an enormously powerful message that he imparts into pretty much everything he does.

Alex Ferrari 49:24
And he's done pretty well with those. He really has not done bad. Not bad at all right now. You directed a movie that I was, I'm a big fan of 3000 miles to Graceland. I saw when it came out back in the day, and I was just a huge fan about it. A huge fan of it. And I wanted you to talk a little bit about because I remember when it came out, and it was a big hoopla. At the time it started Kevin Costner and Kurt Russell Christian Slater. And at the time, you know, I think Kevin was still at the peak of his powers at that point, if I'm not mistaken. How it still is another way? Oh, absolutely. I'm a huge Kevin Costner fan. But you know, there was that peak where he was he could get anything greenlit just by walking on the just walking in the room? How can you discuss a little bit about the process of putting together a studio project like that, because you're the producer and a director on it as well. And I know you've done prior to, to getting it going, you had to done other feature films, and directed other features to get to that point, but when you how do you put a project like that together, so the audience understands?

Demian Lichtenstein 50:36
Well, I'm going to tell you what, what Kevin said to me. He said, If you come to me, and you want to produce one of my movies, then you better have either one, a few Academy Awards as a producer, or you have to have a series of movies that have grossed, you know, $100 million plus in a row. If you're a cinematographer, same thing, you need to have had some Academy Awards or, you know, had big movies that have been very successful. And you're obviously brilliant at what you do. And then he kind of went down the list of all of the different primary crew positions and his his thoughts that he said, however, if you have a script, and I think that script is great, and especially if I want to make that script, then I don't care where you came from, what awards you have, what you would ever have done, or have never done. If that story is a story, I want to be a part of, or a story I want to tell, then we've got something to talk about. And so it comes down to a couple things. It comes down to one having a great piece of material that other people make their own. Okay, this will come back to this but I want you to remind me to talk before we're done about the understanding of being a filmmaker means you learn how to let go and let everyone else got it you own what you're committed to doing

Alex Ferrari 52:42
Got to cut

Demian Lichtenstein 52:44
But that's that's really what it came down to now we 3000 miles to Graceland got made for one reason, one reason only Other than that, we had a great story to tell was that Kevin Costner said, I want to make that story. And that's that's why of course greenlit. Be greenlit it but by getting to Kevin Costner. Okay. pretty fascinating story, how I ended up, you know, at his home, having dinner, talking, and then being invited back again, again and again. And then I think was on the fourth dinner, that he said, You know, I hear that you have a really cool idea for a movie. Would you pitch it to me? Sometimes.

Alex Ferrari 53:36
So what am I but you were meeting with Kevin Costner about? Like, how did you get those dinners prior to, it wasn't about this movie was about something else.

Demian Lichtenstein 53:44
It was about the movie, but it was about something else. Okay. And this is again, where kind of understanding the importance of certain things early in life, and why they matter. And again, it's very much in the current lexicon of what's going on in Hollywood today. So back in New York City, when I was in house director at Sony Music Studios knows one of the top music video directors in the world for a period of time. You know, look, I had a great time. I had like, you know, 25 girls on the payroll for dancing that you could always turn to for you know, dance videos and things like that. There was like, you know, it was a lot of fun and everyone different time, different time. Everyone was having a great time. But you know, I hired an assistant. For two reasons. She was super smart and extremely beautiful. And that assistant is still today. extraordinarily intelligent. She's a doctor, by the way, when I told you she's brilliant, she's a doctor today of Chinese medicine. brilliant woman, Sharon. And Sharon is the especially back then was the kind of girl that every guy dreamed of having as his girlfriend. Okay. I don't know how else to say it. Sure. That's that simple. And And I'll never forget one night we were editing a crisscross music video in the bowels of sell music three in the morning and came into the Edit studio really upset and leaned over the table and watched her hair kind of cascade past her face with the light from the monitors kind of making it looks like it was stop motion is it like, through and I even had that moment of literally thanking God, that girl is so beautiful. But she was really upset. And I said, Let me guess you're just had a big fight with your boyfriend. She's like, what are you psychic? I said, No, you're you. And you're with a director in a dark room and a highly secured facility that no one else can get into. If I was your boyfriend, I would be deeply concerned. Right? So I'd like to meet your boyfriend. And let him know he has nothing to be concerned about. She said, Wow, you really do that? And I said, Yeah. And that guy became a friend of mine for many, many years. When Sharon moved out to California, you know, I followed, you know, not following her. But a couple of years later, I came out with my girlfriend. And when I called Sharon. She said, Hey, what are you doing? And I said, Oh, we've moved on here. Let us meet you for lunch chat. She's great. What are you here for? I said, I I've got a script. I've been working on that directing. And she's what's the call? They said 3000 miles to Graceland. She's a cool who's in it? I said nobody yet. But I really want Kurt Russell and Kevin Costner. And she laughed. And I said, I know. I know. It's that I'm shooting pretty high. But you know, they're two of my, you know, heroes. Those are the guys I want in the movie. Great, good. Let's have coffee. And you know, do you have the script? And I said, Yeah, bring me a copy. She called me the next day. And she said, Hey, I'd love you to come up. Have dinner with me. And my boyfriend. I said, Sure said, Bring your girl and I look forward to seeing you. I said great. And a couple days later, we drove up into the hills and drove up to a nice house and walked into the kitchen. She said, Honey, my friends are here said all right. And outlaw Kevin Costner. You got to be kidding me. Yeah, yeah. Now. Now I'm going to tell you something interesting. Yeah. And again, that's why I think it's so important the environment of day. And look, I've been good. I don't think I've been perfect my whole life. I'm sure I've made mistakes. But you know, I Kevin said, two critical things to me. One, three things. He said, You know, it's really interesting. You're here in my home, you've watched movies in my theater, and you've held my golden statues in your hand. I know you're a filmmaker. And I know that, you know, you have a project. And I'm really impressed by the fact that you never once brought your project up to me that you were interested in who I was, as a human being not just the movie star. I said, Yeah, you're not just a movie star. You're an Academy Award winning filmmaker, Kevin. And I just want to know, I appreciate that. I said, Thank you. I, you know, I appreciate you having me over to your home. The next thing that he said that that that mattered was he said, we were actually sitting alone. The remember very well and is really cool, kind of jumbly hot to just talking about filmmaking and about the great filmmakers that we love to have the pet you know, from the past. And they turned to me quite directly and he said, You know, I'm, my girlfriend told me that, you know, you're the only guy that she'd ever worked with, who didn't try to sleep with her. And I said, Well, you know, she's brilliant. I have a lot of respect for her. And you know, quite frankly, that's not what I hired her for. I am I hired her to, you know, bring her intelligence and her skill set to helping you know me push my life and my career long. So I just want you to know that, you know, as her boyfriend, you know, I know, that always impressed her, and then It impresses me. That's where I said, well, thank you.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:14
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Demian Lichtenstein 1:00:24
And then the third thing he said, that mattered after I pitched my project to him, as he looked at me, and he said, You know what, I said, what he goes, That's literally the best pitch I've ever heard in my life. And if I ever made a movie like that, I wouldn't play the hero, I play the bad guy. When you have the script, let me read it. I said, I have the script in the trunk of my car?

Alex Ferrari 1:00:51
Of course you do. I'm surprised you didn't have a waterproof version of it in your pants.

Demian Lichtenstein 1:00:58
And I gave it to him. And you know, and the rest is history. Now. The The, the thing to understand there that I think is missing on a lot of people that want to be get into the business is that they're so focused on themselves, that they forget to listen. Mm hmm. It's like being in a conversation with someone who's completely uninterested in what you're saying. They're just thinking about the next best thing they can say, right? You know, or it's about that person who at the party, which, by the way, my wife has accused me of being on occasion. So now let everybody know, I've been that guy, apparently, you know, such an arrogant bore, that the only thing a he or she dominates the entire conversation, with their stories about their stuff. And it's quite frankly uninterested in anybody else, his story or in any one else at all, because narcissism is ruling the day. And personal, you know, grandiosity, rather than a level of humility. And understanding of human beings can look Sometimes you'd like now you have to be the person talking and trying to make a difference, right. And I think that it's, it's, we're at a really, really critical time and creativity where we need not just the established, but the upcoming and new voices, to you know, tell important stories about humanity and about the planet and about the animals and about the universe and consciousness and spirituality and love. And to really get the depth of the gifts that they have inside of them, and figure out a way to express those gifts without being complete dominating assholes to everybody else. Right.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:28
Amen. Amen. Now, when you when you work on when you work on 3000 miles of grace, and I'm assuming this is the first time you worked with arguably legends, you know, Kurt Russell, Kevin Costner

Demian Lichtenstein 1:03:41
First time with acting legends. Prior to that worked with people like Eric Clapton, sure skinning them, you know.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:53
So how, yeah, exactly as a musical director, but let me ask you a question. How do you direct an Oscar winning director? How do you direct someone like Kurt Russell, who's been literally he was born and he just right off the womb he was act they can Disney movies, like how do you direct those kind of actors?

Demian Lichtenstein 1:04:12
You know, Kurt Russell's first acting gig was as a kid kicking Elvis Presley in the shins. And the movie it happened at the World's Fair. And in 3000 miles to Graceland, Kurt comes around the corner of his Cadillac to find a kid stealing his public eye you know, his air valve caps. And then he promptly kicks Kurt Russell in the shins off. So there most people would never know that and the album that Kevin signed, sorry, Curt signs in 3000 miles of Graceland in the elevator scene with the girls. Is it happened at the World's Fair Of course. I kept telling Kurt, we only have one copy of this album. It's literally the only one we could find. I make sure when you sign it, you sign it as Elvis Presley, not as Kurt Russell. So watch, you literally see he starts to sign and K and then turns it into an E and then it's pretty funny. He's like, Ah, man, you know,

Alex Ferrari 1:05:26
But like how do you direct guys like that?

Demian Lichtenstein 1:05:30
It comes down to this. You listen. You listen to their ideas about the character, you listen to their ideas about the story. You come to some understanding of what's driving and motivating them as a character. And to say simply, as a director, you as a director come prepared. People have to understand that, you know, two groups decide whether or not you make your day, big movie, to the crew and the cast. The cast can think You're such an idiot that they refuse to come out of their trailer and work another minute with you guess what, there's not a lot to shoot, right? Or some other issue of keeps them in their trailer, they can move like molasses super slow, because you're such an ass and they have no interest in helping you in any way. Because you're unprepared. You're unprofessional, and you don't treat people with respect. So be become prepared. And literally what I mean is read your script, block out your shots, write down your shot list, make quick thumbnail storyboards, and hopefully have a storyboard artists that can turn them into storyboards, but stick figures will do. Your floor plan is really critical the set where your cameras are placed, and what shots you plan on getting from that direction, have an understanding of that and really work that out with your ad team. rector's team, that's why the DGA is so important, because they really understand the importance of the director's team. It's a team of people, it's not just you, about directing, to Team teams make movies, you know, teams, you know, there's very, just, it's a team effort. So in talking to the actors, when the actor knows, they can they know, because guys like Kurt Russell, have worked. And Kevin have worked with 100 directors, and they've had the 33% of them that are 100% prepared, the 33% of them that are completely unprepared, and the 33% of them that, you know, are maybe figuring it out in the moment to some degree, but their skill set is so high, that you know, they've got a certain level of movement and velocity that is unique to them. You know, it's I'm not worried whether or not you know, Spielberg has storyboarded mass, but they have not worried if they have but they have. So the point is, is that when the actor sees that you are technically prepared and in communication with your crew, and that your crew is respecting you because you understand what you want. Right like I and I'm answering your question because you'll notice it goes both ways for the crews as well. When I'm on a set, you know, there's a certain period of time people show up for breakfast. I have a rule my rule is first shot is off within the first hour period first shot no matter what, no matter how big the day is how big the setup is, you know totally got it you're prepping you know camera, but you know, give me camera be on a you know, on a hi hat right here. I want it why but not super wide. You know, I'll take a 35 millimeter lens. Right here. If you think 18 is better, we can do that. But you tell me Dave, my VP, what you think but that's what I'm thinking of and I want to see my lead guy, you know cresting over the hill as the sun is rising. Let's, I know I didn't have that in my initial shot list and boards, but I really want that shot. Let's get that right now. And then you go over to your cast, which are typically in a big movie, they're in makeup in the trailer. Right? Right. And then you go in and and, you know, you spend time making sure that they're, that they're clear. And what I mean by that is everyone has their own bag of tricks. But for me with guys at the level of Kurt and Kevin, my thing is to check in with them. No, I call it clearing clearing the way for the day. Okay, ie, it's helpful for me to know that you got into a huge fight with your wife this morning on the phone or your girlfriend or, you know, it's helpful for me to know that your high school best friend just died in a car wreck. It's helpful for me to know that you're leaving the set to go to a funeral? You know, it's just I need to know, regardless of how much of a professional you are, what is influencing your state of mind?

Alex Ferrari 1:11:15
And how do you how do you do that? When you check in? Do you actually ask them? How are you doing today?

Demian Lichtenstein 1:11:21
Yeah, I actually I actually asked, okay, it's kind of like, my wife will ask me, you know, how my day was, you know, sometimes I'll just grabbed out an answer, you know, but often I'll go into a little bit of a dissertation of the day and level blah, and then I'll get up and go do something. And then she'll be like, you know, you didn't ask me how my day is. I want to you didn't ask. I was like, wow, sorry. I mean, you know, to come back. And I say, not, you know, just like, I apologize for that. And I actually really want to know how your day was. So literally checking in with the other human being, rather than just like, once again, to be out of makeup. Good. You got those lines memorized yet. Right. Cool. So remember, today, you're the happy guy. And walking out, right? actors are taught by coaches and acting teachers, they're trained to be prepared to get nothing from a director.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:27
Right!

Demian Lichtenstein 1:12:28
They literally call it doing your own work, right? Like, you know, I tried to give have had meaningful conversations with them before we try to understand what's motivating them what's going on, where they're out in the process. If they're upset with me, I tried to clear that upset out of the way. So it doesn't influence the day, you know, you know, an example would be, you know, you know, you just check in what's going on with space and then great. And then. Anyway, yeah, and it just depends. It's more of a knowing like you don't it's not like you lead every conversation with Are you pissed off with me about something or? But you might go like, Hey, is there anything you've been really wanting to tell me or something? I feel like I missed something. And I didn't hear something you're trying to communicate to me is, and they might be like, Well, yeah, actually, you know, yesterday, you promised me at the end of the day that I'd get to run that scene the way I wanted to, and then your line producer came in and pull the plug. But I never got to do it the way I really felt that needed to be done. Right. Now, I'm a big boy enough to know, I can't go back to that location. But I still feel like that's a critical thing that has to be in this show. So I was like, Well, you know what, first of all, let me apologize for that. I did say that. And I have this idea for the shot of you walking out of the Sun of the Hi Hat as you crest over, you know, the hill and you're coming down. And I really believe that, you know, that idea you had, um, we could work into that shot in this way. What do you think? You know what that would really work. You know, if I if you pushed into the close up on me, you know? And I turned and I said, Well, Sally, you told me I'd be back one day, and I guess you were right. And I wasn't because I'm coming home would do it. Okay, great. We're gonna do that first up. Now, I'm just giving you an example. But as an actor who now feels like they're in relationship with the director, that the director is listening to them that the director cares about what's going on for them. Not just about them parroting out some good lines for them, that understands that there is a co creative relationship happening with the person who's embodying this character on screen. You know, who would you say is the greatest living actress today?

Alex Ferrari 1:15:20
No, well, Meryl, I'm assuming

Demian Lichtenstein 1:15:22
Meryl Streep, right? Right. So Meryl said something great. Now, she didn't say it to me. But what she said Is she said, as an actor, I give voice to a soul that doesn't have one. That's a great line. And you really want to think about that. Because that, that when I heard that, that never left me as a director. As an actor, I given voice to a soul that doesn't have one. Because the actor and bodies the living breathing soul of the character that has been written, you know, on the page, either by another writer or yourself. And they are as an actor, doing everything they can to embody the soul of that being and give voice to that character. As a director, I'm sorry, I cut you off,

Alex Ferrari 1:16:23
No, Im sorry to cut you off.

Demian Lichtenstein 1:16:25
As a director, it's my job, or the job of a director to clear the pathway so that that voice can be fully realized from the depths of the soul of that character. And as a director, it's always good to check in to find out if you're the biggest roadblock. I can tell you, as a director, I have discovered Holy shit, I'm the biggest roadblock here. Because I'm so consumed by my idea that I'm not open to what the soul of this character is trying to say.

Alex Ferrari 1:17:09
So can you go back, you told me to remind you about letting go and to go back and talk about that a little bit about letting go of the process and letting go of other people that taking it on their, you know, take making it their own? Can you talk a little bit about that?

Demian Lichtenstein 1:17:20
Yeah, that's perfect lead in Thank you. The IE at some point in the process, you discover, okay, that you are just part of the system. Right? You were part of you are in a studio level project, you as a director, if you've noticed of late, by the way, if you're paying attention, you are a essential replaceable part. Exactly. Okay. And when you understand that you are an essential, therefore you need to be operating. Like, you know, a wheel on a race car is essential. And it's a replaceable part. Okay, so you want to be aware of it, that when you move into a larger project, you're an essential but replaceable part. You want to start to get into the concept of CO creation. You want to look at how can I check my ego at the door and bring my competence, my commitment, my compassion, you know, and my creativity to the party. You want to learn how to be a extraordinary listener. Another thing Kevin said to me, Well, long before we went into production, he turned to me and he said, You know, I've worked with a lot of directors. I said, Yeah. He said, I have never worked with a director that listens to me the way you do. It's really unique. And I said, Thank you, I really appreciate it. He said, How did you learn how to do that? I said I actually went to school, where you learn how to listen. I literally trained and developed myself in a leadership capacity and listening multiple different schools of thought and going back to the dojo and to the Masters, you are listening, you are not talking. Right. All right. Higher education, higher consciousness. You know, you talk at one point but you your primary job is listening. When you're there as a director and you're watching a performance What matters is the depth of your listening. There is a profoundly different experience for the actor. If when they look over to the director's chair, they see a guy texting, while they're in the middle of their rehearsal, as compared to a guy leaning on the edge of his seat, like the words that are falling out of his mouth, and the twitch of his eyebrow, and the swipe sweep of, you know, his hand gesture is potentially the most miraculous thing you've ever seen. Because you're listening for greatness, you're listening for creativity you're listening for, does that truly move this character in this story forward? So Kevin said, well, however you learned how to do it, I promise you this, if you continue to listen to me the way you do, I promise you that on set, I will be your greatest listener, I will listen to you in a way that I have rarely listened to other people. And I said, Thank you that I will do everything I can to continue to earn that level of trust with you. And that's also the next thing that it comes down to, is that People need to trust you, as the creative. They can disagree with you, they can be angry with you. You know, you know, but it's very simple. You know, if you say, you know, I'm going to show up on set 7am, and meet you there tomorrow to go over shots to your dp. And you say that five days in a row and all five days in a row, you don't show up until 11am. Because, you know, we're on a split schedule and call is until 12. And, look, I'm busy Dude, I got shit to do. You know, I got problems I got politically, well, guess what? That dp no longer believes in you as a director. Right? Because they can't trust your word. And they know you're not interested in showing up to honor both your word and to co create with it. Right. Okay. He's no longer making the movie for you or with you. He's just making a movie. Have you ever been on a big set? With you know, the hire crews? It's really fascinating. Round the if let's say you're on a eight week shooting schedule. Around the sixth week, on every break or downtime, you see every crew member on their phone, or their iPad or whatever, because they're all all busy lining up their next gig, right? You're just a guy or a girl, a man a woman. Let me not say, girl, you're just a man or a woman that happens to have the gig that's paying them today. Right? And it's really fascinating. I've seen it multiple times. Like they're just they're not checked out of their job. They're just hustling. Yeah, they're hustling their necks. Good.

Alex Ferrari 1:23:28
Now, can you discuss a little bit about what you're doing with futurism entertainment.

Demian Lichtenstein 1:23:35
Okay. Um, I've spent the last seven years of my life as a white belt, learning how to become a black belt in the world of video gaming, virtual reality, and quantum computing. I believe that the future of entertainment is going to be instantly accessible, let's say via you know, we'll call it the smartphone for now. And through VR and AR technology, you're going to be able to transport yourself instantaneously into the holodeck. There's even the company is now registered themselves as the holodeck, by the way, where you your avatar of yourself will be photo realistically if you choose to play in that world or you could be a Pokemon character. If that's your choice, we'll be transported into that universe. You know, we could be like avatar your you are now on the planet Pandora. And you are now a NaVi or you're a soldier or your You know, a winged giant, forget the name of their birds.

Alex Ferrari 1:25:06
But yeah,

Demian Lichtenstein 1:25:08
That you, you get to become a part of the story that you're watching, you're in it, you're experiencing it, we're moving out of, you know, you know what I could call third party experiential experiences, observable experiences, you know, you're sitting in a theater and you're getting the communal experience of sitting with other people watching a story unfold. Now you're in the story. And your communal experience may be the 100 or 1 million other people that are in that story with you. Clicking in globally, all being run by advanced artificial intelligence coming from the mind of a creator, like a Cameron Spielberg. But it's all focusing into an entire new way of absorbing not only information, but entertainment. And, and it's still the Wild West, and people are still figuring everything out from VR to AR to Mr. mixed reality, augmented reality, virtual reality, of there still advancing, you know, in cinema, you know, there's a whole new way 3d is coming, we'll probably see with Avatar where you, you still get 3d, but you don't even wear glasses in the theater anymore.

Alex Ferrari 1:26:45
That would be entertaining. That would be interesting when that happens,

Demian Lichtenstein 1:26:48
Right! So the all these technologies are advancing. And as these technologies advance, you know, futurism is positioning itself to be one of the creative groups of people that understand the radical embracing of new technology and art, which is really what futurism means. Like, if you look it up as a concept. So that's, that's what futurism is about. And it's, it's awesome. And I have figured out that one thing, by the way, it took me, you know, two years after that conversation with Jim to figure it out. And it took me another five years to write the first three drafts of the script. And now we're redrafting as we speak. And to figure out the the, the game, the massive multi online player games, figure out the virtual reality scripts to figure out the augmented opportunities to figure out the AI and quantum computing technology required to execute on it. You know, we're all forging our pathways. But at the heart of it, if you ask me what I like to do, I like to put a regular 2d camera on my shoulder and take some material that I've written or someone else's written and get out there with some actors and create some magic on screen.

Alex Ferrari 1:28:33
Now I have a few last questions, you have some time to ask all my questions, really rapid fire, if you don't mind? Sure. What advice would you give a filmmaker wanting to break into the business to go make a movie? I get that a lot on the show.

Demian Lichtenstein 1:28:49
Literally, yeah, go, go. Go do it. Go sit down. If you don't know someone that knows how to write and someone that knows how to shoot, and someone that knows how to edit and someone that knows how to act, then you write, shoot, you know, direct edit and act in it yourself. And music is important as well, so composer, etc. But you know, go make one.

Alex Ferrari 1:29:15
Can you tell me what book had the biggest impact on your life or career?

Demian Lichtenstein 1:29:25
What book had the biggest impact on my life or career? That's a loaded question. I'm reading books all the time. I think I think the one that had the biggest impact on my life and careers, the one that I co wrote myself,

Alex Ferrari 1:29:49
Okay. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Demian Lichtenstein 1:30:02
And I mean that from the perspective of who, who I had to discover. I was. And by the way, I didn't like what I found out about myself. And then, and the people that I interviewed for the book, or that I came into contact, because of it, you know, from the Dalai Lama to, you know, jack Canfield, who sold more books than anybody planet, Marianne Williamson to Reverend Michael Bernard Beckwith to use the books called Discover the Gift, the that book, and the documentary that went with it probably had been one of the biggest impacts on me, because I actually had to make it. With that said, there's a really brilliant little book by a Buddhist monk called the diamond cutter, okay. And it's, and it was one of the, the few back in the day you call it books, manuscripts. conversations that Buddha himself said was, you know, critical to understand and it was essentially about the combination of consciousness and spirituality with business. A lot of what we see happening in the world today is business trumping consciousness, humanity, or spirituality. Rather than coming to the fundamental understanding that business and consciousness go hand in hand, the the simplest way to understand that is that if you have a huge company, and the leadership of that company are conscious and enlightened and care about humanity, than the impact on the 1000s of people that work for that company, is, you know, radically different than someone who's running a big company that thinks it's only about money. And you know, that the people that work for them are basically slaves. Alright, so

Alex Ferrari 1:32:43
Any pharmaceutical company, any pharmaceutical company, or you know, almost any big oil company, but never mind.

Demian Lichtenstein 1:32:54
So, even though I don't think, you know, I could go on with a big list of books, but the diamond cutter to sell that one book is a good read, a good read and an important read it will teach you something about yourself and creativity and business and spirituality and consciousness. I don't know why that comes to mind. Another book that had a great impact on me it's not about filmmaking at all. It's called the way of the superior man by David data. That's really worth reading for men, specifically. And, and I think the things I don't know if you're gonna ask the question, but the things that have had some the biggest impact on me directly and supportive in my career has been my being a student at landmark education, which is a higher consciousness, self awareness seminar company. My deep work with my Lakota Native American spiritual work, the ceremonial leader within that work that I work with and so that's that's been very profound. And you know, the the greatest teachers in my life today, bar none. are my two children. Romeo, Luke, two and a half, roughly one and a half. And my wife because they are the ones a bit Teach me every day. What really matters Yes. Secondary to my ego wants or needs.

Alex Ferrari 1:35:07
Hey, Ray Mansur what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Demian Lichtenstein 1:35:28
You know, I was sitting up at a house right underneath the Hollywood sign. I mean, literally, under the sign just you can't get much closer. Sure. And the house across the street was like a cliff house and and it used to be James Dean's house. house right across from it that perched on the other side of the cliff, which is literally one street across, right. Was my production designer Robert, for 3000 miles.

Alex Ferrari 1:36:05
I know Robert. Yes. Robert vikos. Yeah, he was my production designer. A bunch of commercials. I did. Yeah. He's amazing. I love that. I've been to the house. I thought the house was amazing. Yeah. Incredible house, right. And he moved by the way. Yeah. So he's in Europe now. Right? In Spain

Demian Lichtenstein 1:36:20
It's thing he couldn't,he couldn't take America anymore, and what was happening and didn't want to raise his twin daughters here. And left. And that's, by the way, that's a lot of what's been happening is some of the greatest, most creative people that literally been saying, I'm done and literally leave to go live the life they dream of living. Sure. And he's doing that. But so I was at Roberts house, and a art director. That was a friend of his who was a Vietnam vet, and had been shot and had killed people in combat was an older gentleman. These saw me sitting there in a really deep, mopey, upset mood. And I just had another big movie that I'd spent like two years developing and prepping. Have the financing polled right before we before we went into production, of course. So now my creative life was upside down, my financial life was upside down. And I really felt like my career was over. And he said, What's, what's wrong, Dan? And I said, Well, you know what, my son at that point in my life, where I'm pretty clear, it's all over. And he goes, Well, what do you mean all over? It's it's done, when you might as well just jump off the cliff. It's done. And he's like, well, sort of jumping off the cliff, what do you really upset about? He does? And I said, well, that, you know, even with all my things that you would have thought would have no, you know, catapulted my career and it's just, it's taking so long. So long.And he looked at me and he quietly, he had this like, leather pouch on his belt. And, you know, he had like the studded leather jacket, and long hair and black arley. And, and he looked at me, and he quietly pulled out his little tobacco pouch and rolled himself a cigarette and, you know, looked at me for a minute, and he kind of looked like Merlin the magician, you know what I mean, right? And he was a wise, wise man. He'd seen a lot of the world and a lot of life and a lot of the ugliest parts of the world and a lot of the most beautiful parts of the world. And he said, Do you know what the beauty Damien is of your career? Taking a really, really long time. You know, the beauty of that is, you know, like, quite frankly, No, I don't. He said, it means that you are going to have a really, really long career.

Alex Ferrari 1:39:31
That's awesome.

Demian Lichtenstein 1:39:33
And what I've learned from that, and that moment, is something that all the great sages say, but you have to discover for yourself. Is that it is a journey is not a destination.

Alex Ferrari 1:39:50
Yeah, man. I preach that all the time.

Demian Lichtenstein 1:39:53
And if you think that you're getting in this for the hit it and quit it, get Rich get famous fast, huh? That's not going to happen. That's about as much chance of you winning the lottery. Sure. Okay, there happens to a rarefied few. But that's why you know about it.

Alex Ferrari 1:40:18
You never, you always see the winners of the lottery, you never see the millions of losers.

Demian Lichtenstein 1:40:23
That's right. So the critical piece of advice is to understand and you know, and bear witness to, and, and be fascinated by that each and every step along the way, is in and of itself, both a great learning experience. You know, I saw this quote the other day, from my literary agent, by the way, was a manager and does agency and stuff, but he's really a literary manager, books and, and he's had many movies made from the books he's represented, etc. But his quote is, I never lose, I only learn or succeed. And I think that's the one that I'm really coming to understand that if who you are, is committed to a long and varied and at times, deeply painful, at times, extraordinarily exhilarating. But in principle, a long a lifelong career, then become a perpetual student of the moment. You know, I mean, relearning things about myself in this interview with you. That, you know, this morning, quite frankly, I forgot.

Alex Ferrari 1:42:13
Right? Right. It's, it's fascinating when you when you get down when you start going down certain paths or doors open up again, they've been closed for years.

Demian Lichtenstein 1:42:21
Yeah. So this is, that's, that's really what it is that I'm, I'm learning that every day right now is a miracle. And every day is an opportunity to learn. And every day is the opportunity to make a difference for somebody in your life. That's, that's really it. You know,

Alex Ferrari 1:42:51
Damien it is That's a very great answer to a very tough question. Sometimes where people can you tell people where they can find you or find out more about futurism entertainment? What you do?

Demian Lichtenstein 1:43:05
Um, Yes, I can. I mean, I'm on Facebook, obviously. Sure. futurism we are in our early stages. You could call it a startup company. We are currently working out of I just built a new home studio and Encino at my, my home. Because I don't want to miss my children growing up those formative you know, first five years. Yep. So this is where I typically AM. Or, you know, traveling somewhere I have to travel to talk to the people I have to talk to you. futurism is not fully open for business yet. From the perspective of that, you know, I'm hiring beyond the staff I have or that I'm currently, you know, in production. We are currently completing our business plans, our financial modeling, we are really looking at you know, how to be a essential and critical part of the new creative, a world that is opening up for everyone right now. And, and I guess I want to remind everybody The other thing too, it's just really critical to remember that, you know, this is the film business. This is the business of entertainment. There, it's an important thing to understand that it's not only about your creativity, it's about how can you build a sustainable model that generates revenue that hopefully creates a profit that allows you to continue to engage in the creation of your dreams. How do you do that? You know, a good idea is to model or find some way to be mentored by or connected to people that have been radically more successful at it than you have.

Alex Ferrari 1:45:45
No. Absolutely not. This has been an epic interview. Damian without question, thank you so so much, for I know you're a busy guy and taking all this time out to to share your knowledge and experience with the with the tribe. So I really, really appreciate it.

Demian Lichtenstein 1:46:03
It's my pleasure. And I will promise that if we ever do this again, I'll have a good microphone set up. Ritchie boomy setup hollow and echoey.

Alex Ferrari 1:46:18
Not a problem at all. And it has been my pleasure being a white belt in this conversation. So thank you so so much, my friend.

Demian Lichtenstein 1:46:25
Thank you. I look forward to seeing you.

Alex Ferrari 1:46:29
I want to thank again Damian for taking the time to to come on the show. He dropped some major knowledge bombs, and just a wealth of experience. And I knew he would, from meeting him and talking with him that day. And I hope you guys got a lot out of it. Because it's some of the stuff that Damien talked about in this episode. You will not learn unless you go through the hard way. And in a small way, I hope this podcast helps you guys trying to avoid a lot of mistakes that my guests have made and I've made, and people I've talked to have made. So hopefully this this, this helped you. And again, Damien, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to the drive. Now if you want links to anything we talked about in this episode, just head over to indiefilmhustle.com/209. And Merry Christmas. Happy Holidays. I've got some presents to go wrap. As always keep the hustle going. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

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YOUTUBE VIDEO

LINKS

  • Futurism Entertainment
  • Demian Lichtenstein – IMDB
  • [easyazon_link identifier=”B00005LDDB” locale=”US” tag=”whatisbroke-20″]3000 Miles to Graceland[/easyazon_link]
  • [easyazon_link identifier=”B0044XV3QY” locale=”US” tag=”whatisbroke-20″]Avatar[/easyazon_link]
  • [easyazon_link identifier=”1622038320″ locale=”US” tag=”whatisbroke-20″]Way of the Superior Man[/easyazon_link]
  • [easyazon_link identifier=”038552868X” locale=”US” tag=”whatisbroke-20″]Diamond Cutter[/easyazon_link]

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IFH 208: Cinematic Masterclass with Philip Bloom

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Right-click here to download the MP3

Today on the show we have a legend in the filmmaking blogosphere, award-winning cinematographer Philip Bloom. Philip is a world-renowned filmmaker who, for the past 10 years of his 27-year career has specialized in creating incredible cinematic images no matter what the camera. He started blogging back in the early 2000s before anyone was really doing it. I personally have been following him for years.

Philip even got an opportunity to shoot for the Jedi Master himself George Lucas on the film [easyazon_link identifier=”B007YJS7G4″ locale=”US” tag=”whatisbroke-20″]Red Tails[/easyazon_link].

Here’s some more info on Philip Bloom:

Some of his most iconic work was created with Canon DSLRs. As one of the biggest evangelists for their use in productions his website became the place to go to for budding filmmakers as well as experienced ones keen to embrace the new technology. His site now regularly has over 1,000,000 visitors a month.

His use of Canon [easyazon_link keywords=”DSLRs” locale=”US” tag=”whatisbroke-20″]DSLRs[/easyazon_link] to shoot part of Lucasfilms’ last movie “Red Tails” proved a huge point to the naysayers. This technology was proved very viable in large-scale productions.

He has become very well known for his in-depth video reviews of various cameras, which have helped many people in the huge decision of buying a camera. He has worked for all the major UK broadcasters, such as the BBC, ITV, C4 and Sky, as well as countless independent production companies and many others around the world including CNN, CBS, Discovery, FOX and NBC. 

Independent projects are key to Philip and he splits his time between bigger projects and small independent ones. One of his most successful independent projects was “How To Start A Revolution” which won a BAFTA in 2012 and was also awarded prizes at several film festivals including Best Documentary at the 2011 Raindance festival. 

 

If you want to learn more about Philip Bloom‘s techniques and methods I’d suggest you take a look at his new online course Philip Bloom’s Cinematic Masterclass.

Here’s some info on the course:

Join filmmaker, educator, and pioneer Philip Bloom as he embarks on his most adventurous project to date. From the wind-swept coast of Ireland to the unforgiving heat of the Mojave Desert, USA, travel with Philip as he guides you through the art and science of filmmaking, and shares his most important advice for capturing the style of cinematic images that have made him one of the world’s most beloved independent filmmakers. Available in gorgeous 4K resolution, Philip Bloom’s Cinematic Masterclass is a ten-hour journey that will educate, entertain and inspire you.

As a gift to the tribe, you can watch the first lesson for FREE.

Enjoy my conversation with Philip Bloom.

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Alex Ferrari 1:34
I'm back and today we have a insanely cool episode. I am talking to one of the oh geez, the original gangsters of the filmmaking blogosphere, Philip Bloom. Now if you guys don't know who Philip Bloom is Google, because he has been around since the early 2000s. He's one of the first filmmaking bloggers out there. He has a massive online Empire, if you will, he's worked with George Lucas shot, shot the movie Red Tails with him on a Canon five D when it first came out. He also travels the world as an award winning cinematographer. And over the years, I've learned a ton from his YouTube channel, his blog, and all the cool stuff that he puts out there for the filmmaking community. And I am honored and humbled that he would come on the podcast to share his experience and knowledge with the tribe. And there'll be a little surprise for you at the end of this episode, Philips got this brand new, insane course that he's got called Philip blooms cinematic master class, and I will have a link at the end of this episode where you guys can go and check it out. It is almost 10 hours long. It is definitely a master class. I have taken a bunch of it already. And I've learned a few things along the way as well. So definitely check that out. But without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Philip Bloom. I'd like to welcome to the show Philip Bloom. Thank you, sir so much for taking the time out to to share your knowledge with the the tribe.

Philip Bloom 3:12
Alex, thanks for having me.

Alex Ferrari 3:14
So how did you get into this crazy business?

Philip Bloom 3:18
I very a path which probably doesn't exist anymore. I it goes back to I think most times when you grow up, you don't know what to do. And I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I was watching a TV show. And it was about a guy who tried out different careers. And what episode was where he tried to be a news photographer. And I watched that this was this was like a knee sort of like mid 80s. And I thought that looks really cool. So I friend of my dad's new oppress geographer. And so I had a conversation with him about it. And I took photos and I was you know, a hobbyist. nothing particularly is better photos. But I thought that looks like a really interesting job. I didn't really know what to do. And then he said to me, I would not bother doing this because photography is on the way out because digital is coming in. And that's going to change everything. It's going to cheapen industry, you should get into TV news. That's where the future is. So when Yeah, why not. So I then sort of like made inquiries and contacts and tried to get in touch with somebody and eventually found somebody who knew somebody and I managed to go out with a news crew. I was about to get about 16 or 17 did that for a day and it was the best thing I'd ever done. It was so much fun. And this was back in the golden age of TV news in a way because where you are really looked after I think they did a I went out with like three man crew. We went out to the press conference for boxer. Then we had a three hour lunch and just Chinese restaurants really expensive Chinese restaurant all on the company. And I was like, Wow, this is amazing. This is the life that I think then they said, We may do something later, but probably not. That'll be it for the day. I'm like, this is a job. And by eventually, I, by the time I left school, I then got I managed to get my foot in the door into sky television, and to try and become a news cameraman. So that's kind of how I got in never wanted to be a filmmaker, and I want to be a filmmaker in the slightest. wanting to do something, wanted to find a job that could pay me to do something that was interesting. Because I really had no idea what I want to do growing up. And that was basically just sort of fell into it just found that I really enjoyed filming, and really enjoyed the the excitement of and boredom as well of news. And that kind of that's kind of where we're ready. And I did that for 17 years. Oh, wow. was what? for staff? And it was the best training anybody I think you can have when you want to become a storyteller? Because you get I got to learn how to use Git not particularly technically, because it was much simpler times it was one camera one lens, right? In two settings like a try. That's it. It was like, yeah, there's no settings in camera. It's turned it on. And now you you had a gain switch. There you go.

Alex Ferrari 6:26
Yes. In the white balance

Philip Bloom 6:28
Yeah, yeah, white balance, and of course, is black and white, if you find so you had to get it right. You knew you got it, right, because you didn't get a phone call later to tell you that you got it wrong. And that the way things worked back then. But it was brilliant was great training, I got to learn how to tell stories really quickly. Learn how to shoot efficiently, how to walk into a room and see the positions where I need to be, I knew how to learn how to figure out how to shots I needed to get really quickly. And then they asked then it gave me a chance to do long form stuff later on. And I was always traveling around the world. And they taught me how to edit. It was just a really brilliant experience. And, and I guess it's one of those things that when you get to I got really comfortable with it. And I could easily still be doing it now. But I realized that I had to leave to push myself further. And that was 11 years ago, in this way.

Alex Ferrari 7:19
And then you get into more filmmaking more documentary after that.

Philip Bloom 7:24
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, docu, documentaries is kind of what I was doing for the last few years of my startup anyway. Because I was one of the few cameraman, there was like 25 kehrmann that worked at the company on the news roster. And I was one of the few who edited. And so I got sent to do the interesting stories. And then it gave me the more creative stuff. And I showed a flair for doing creative stuff. And so they pushed me to more and more do that. And then so I was doing the longer form stuff, sort of like what I guess what you equate slight, 60 minutes, types you have. And that was brilliant. So that really gave me a taste for longer stuff of doing that. So that's why I went into freelancing. That's why I really wanted to still push forward with documentaries, as my main thing is still my main thing. But also try the other things which could, which you know, interested me, you know, and, and I've certainly found that trying all these different things, and still doing different types of work really helps in every aspect you're in. If you're filming narrative fiction, coming from a news documentary background is incredibly useful. Because you're, you know, you have that speed of thought. But also if you've you we can take from that fiction, though, is that aspect of planning, and, and working with others for to in a much more controlled way. And bring that into your documentary work can can have a really interesting effects. I love the way that everything that I've done in these past 11 years has really sort of jailed and work together to make everything hopefully better.

Alex Ferrari 9:03
Now you were at what point in your career did you decide, hey, I'm gonna start blogging. I'm gonna open up a YouTube show, YouTube channel, you're one of the first guys in the in the industry in the film industry at all that was kind of figuring that out. How did you start this blog and what made you want to start one?

Philip Bloom 9:23
So I think the website started initially, this is in 2006, just as a place for my showreel because nobody, because prior to this, people were just and still what at this time we're sending out DVDs,

Alex Ferrari 9:40
Sure CD ROM, or VHS,

Philip Bloom 9:42
Or VHS is and nobody the effort it takes for somebody to open it up and put it in a machine and play it. It means they're not going to watch it. And I just thought if I could just send them a link over this thing called email, the employee seems to start having these days and it's When basically it was just seemed like the most obvious way of doing things. And that's basically started it. And then about a year later, I started up the blog. And the blog was really was just a simple way of me sharing my experiences using something called 35 millimeter adapters, which is what we use before data loss as a way of tricking the smaller sensor cameras into having essentially 35 millimeter field of view and aesthetic and everything and it was really clunky. system. Yeah, remember, and the only way you could find out information about these really was by going through all of these forums, the dv x users and the DB info and stuff like that. And it was going through countless threads. And I thought, yeah, I'm just gonna just have a place where I can just share my my experience with it and see, I can hopefully help people out if they think you're going down this path, and I can see me trying out all this, all these gears, all these different adapters that I'm buying, trying to get the most filmic look at it's simply my it sounds a bit trite, but it is true, I did actually just want to give a little bit back because I was trained by such brilliant cameraman back in my news days. And I just wanted to just to have, you know, I was taught I was educated on the job and stuff like that. And I could only see the way things were going, that that wasn't happening anymore. And people were sort of floundering. So I just wanted to share my experiences. And so hopefully people could learn a little bit from what I was doing. And that's kind of really basically what it started out as just simply just me giving a little bit back.

Alex Ferrari 11:40
And then it grew and grew and grew till it's the juggernaut that it is today. And you and your YouTube, and when did you start your YouTube channel?

Philip Bloom 11:48
Um, you eager to find out? I mean, it started it a long time ago. I can't remember how long ago, but I mean, it must be about nine,

Alex Ferrari 11:58
At least like 2000 2010 2008, something like that.

Philip Bloom 12:01
Oh, well, but yeah, before then yeah, so I didn't really do much with it. It was just a place of putting up some stuff. And, and really, I have to say, I mean, Vimeo was kind of my main place, there was exposure, and then Vimeo exposure and disappeared. And maybe I used to use that as a place to put my work up to be seen because it's a clean platform. YouTube always struck me as a very noisy environment. Yep. And I've actually grown to love YouTube for what it is I've embraced it for what it is. And it took me quite a few years to understand what needs to be done with it. And I've never really embraced it in the full way that many have. Because I think to truly do that. It's a full time job. That hands on YouTube for me. So it's just, I put up stuff every now and then. But it's and i'm not i'm not a snob at all about these things. And you see this online, when you talk about these things. People say oh, no, I don't put myself on YouTube, the quality of people who watch it out, and we're near as good as quality people who watch it on Vimeo, unlike, right, so you want to pick and choose your audience where you're in the wrong business. If you want me to watch it, surely as many people watch as possible, there's no and YouTube is for me, it's now grown bigger to me than than Vimeo. I still use Vimeo, initially put my stuff up. And then when I'm happy with it, I will then put it up onto YouTube. Because as you know, you can't change the video on YouTube, you have to let it go. And it's not like I do daily vlogs or anything. It's when I put stuff up on YouTube, it's generally quite a crafted piece that I put up there. So it takes me a while to make it.

Alex Ferrari 13:46
So when you approach a film or a series, how do you approach How do you kind of like creatively go after a new job?

Philip Bloom 13:58
It is that's a tricky one. Because it really depends on the type of work there is so varied and degenerate the way that work. I'm lucky enough to be in a position now where I don't have to actually knock on doors are such the fine work. I still make new contacts and do things like that just the normal way. But I don't send my my I don't try and contact people looking for ways I get people contacting me with job offers and ideas. And if it's something that interests me, then I will, then I'll go and work with that. And it really depends on what the job is. It can be it's such a different process, you know, whether it's set, whether it's working on a documentary series, or doing a corporate or branded content, for example, I mean, all of these things have such different processes. Obviously, there's some parts of it which are of a similar, which is I think the common ground and all of it would be filming. Because on everything that I do, I'll always be filming something But other stuff I may not be editing, I may not be doing any pre production it really depends on on type of thing that I do.

Alex Ferrari 15:08
Now you should a lot on location. Do you have any tips on lighting with natural light?

Philip Bloom 15:19
Yeah, lighting, natural lighting is a wonderful thing. It's an unpredictable uncontrollable thing frequently. And so whilst working with what there is, is a nice quick way of doing things, you can't use it for everything, it's the best thing I can suggest when when you're working with available, I mean, I would always suggest having your own lights as well, to give it a try and do talking heads and interviews in a room trying to do that on just available light or natural light. Unless you've got continuous gray cloud outside or anything like that, it's just gonna be a nightmare. But it is a case of working with what's there don't fight it, embrace the light work find a location or room with a background that works with the windows what there is when you walk into a room that has lights on, turn them off, and then see what the lights like and then turn the back on again if you want. So it's a case of just don't, don't turn the camera on until you've you've figured out where the light is and how you can harness it. And I think too many people don't look at where the light is, before they choose their background first and then they go about the light the two should be hand in hand especially if you're going to be working with natural light you need to make make it work together very well.

Alex Ferrari 16:47
It's not it's in other words you kind of roll with the punches when it comes to natural light as opposed to trying to control it or manipulate it too much I mean you can control manipulate it to a certain extent but it's ever changing so it's kind of like you know wrestling a wet cat.

Philip Bloom 17:01
Yeah, it just depends on what it is you're trying to film if you're just trying to grab some shots here and there it's you know, you can work with it and we know lighting is not turning up the ISO and your camera as you know, is a completely different thing. Right horrendous thing some people actually do think that is what lighting is no, we still need to lighting so you know creates the really creates everything and I love natural light. But when I when the natural light doesn't work for me, which is can easily be you know 75% of the time, that's when you start adding lights yourself, but in the most naturalistic way possible for me, it's all about finding the position where you would like to be that looks like it's a motivated lightsource like it could be the window and that's what I could be doing I could literally just be putting up a light to add to the window light to take it over to add a little bit more to it to give a bit more sparkle casing changes. So I think that's kind of what you need to do with it and then there's lots of apps and things out there which you can use to see you know if you want to scout locations beforehand to see where the sun will be the light will be and how that will affect things. But most of the time if you're just doing things quickly you just have to work with it and just be quick is my best advice if you are going to work with natural light don't faff around and start being undecided about what to do You just have to just go with it.

Alex Ferrari 18:27
Now I know because I actually watched your your Skywalker Ranch video that you did years ago which was stunning and for any Star Wars fan that is Mecca so I watched that I found that online I was like wow and then you were shooting it with a DSLR if I'm not mistaken right

Philip Bloom 18:46
Yeah, yeah, so that was a that was an interesting time so that was back in 2009 and they contacted minutes is a fun it's a nice story because I'm a huge Star Wars fan have been up since I saw the first Star Wars 77 and they emailed me and I didn't reply so Lucasfilm emailed me and I didn't reply because I'm terrible with emails and in I have a PA now and it makes things better but now she does my work email she doesn't do my personal emails and I'm still rapid with my personal emails. But I still was still bad then and I missed it and then they called me and I did I'm rubbish with voicemails terrible with voicemails. I'll be like, you know, you have 60 new voicemail right got it. Me. But actually, the did play it back. I played one back about a day after it was left and it was producer Rick McCallum said dropped to an email last week and tried to avoid it strange that we've not heard about. from you. I think basically, anybody never nobody ignores and I wasn't ignoring I'm just rubbish.

Alex Ferrari 20:07
No one ever ignores an email from George Lucas.

Philip Bloom 20:10
I mainly call them back and apologize. And they just said that they, they want to know what this can find the marks who's about if it's any good. They have second world war movie that they're currently shooting called Red Tails. And they've got some other plans for other stuff that they just want to just don't know what the quality is like. They've got one, they messed around with it, but they're not they don't really know much about it. So could I come over to Skywalker Ranch for maybe a few days? And give them some advice? And I was like, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 20:43
Sure what actually,

Philip Bloom 20:44
I was actually I was booked on a job. Oh, yeah, I was booked on a job to do short notice. It was like, can you come out next week? I was booked for like three weeks. And so I found out the production manager at the job I was on and gave a sob story of like, you know, how important Star Wars was to my life. And then eventually got to the bit that I said, and they've asked me to come over there next week to work with them. And she said to me, why don't you tell me that the beginning 10 minutes ago? Yeah, that's fine. Understand totally, no problem. I'll let you I'll let you off the job. And yeah, so I went out there. And I shot with it around the ranch, which was I didn't have long today at all. And they just wanted to see it didn't want me to shoot any test charts or anything like that. They weren't interested in that they wanted to see what it looked like projected. So I just shot some stuff around the ranch. And I went into their, into the the main house into the screening room. And it was ahead of experience because it was McCallum there. And George Lucas is he's visiting director friend Quentin Tarantino's legendary sound designer and editor Ben Ben burrs there. So they go into this and

Alex Ferrari 22:06
What then then just Dennis Miranda show up.

Philip Bloom 22:09
He was he wasn't that I cut the stuff on my laptop in the room. And when it looks are I bit noisy bit of aliasing there bit more. Right? It's all right. God. And I didn't know they were going to screen it on the big screen. So I wanted to get in there. And I had is one of the things I would like to have seen on the big screen before anybody else saw it, just to check it. So the first time I ever saw canon five, the Mk two subjected was at that point. And it looked beautiful looks so much better than did it on the computer, through their their magical idea what amazing project that I had it looked fantastic. And they loved it. So it was a hell of an experience.

Alex Ferrari 22:50
And then then you get to work a little bit on Red Tails.

Philip Bloom 22:53
Yeah, so I did some shoots did some stuff for them up at in Sonoma a couple of weeks. And then in Prague A few months later as well. So I did about three weeks work on the on the movie. And it was that was it was crazy, because that was me with my little ID mark two. And I also had a 1d Mark four as well, that have a seven day as well, maybe a seven day cop member, I think I did had a 70 modified to PL as well as at the three cameras to switch between. And they they were shooting on Sony f 35. So big beasts, and you know, proper cinema crew. And sure it looks like it's just a monster. So you know that I would be there to get an angle they hadn't thought of because I was so nimble and able to just slot it and find things with my eye what I did. And I was able to be set up and ready within like two minutes. guys were like 45 minutes to an hour just to repo each position. Of course. That was it was it was fun. It was it's a fun drinking game watching the movie. Boy, I can't do it because I would kill myself. There's 150 shots of my film.

Alex Ferrari 24:11
Yeah, that's insane.

Philip Bloom 24:12
I know. I know every single one of the shots when it comes on. And of course they've graded it beautifully. You couldn't tell. But it's not. It's not for what people initially thought of. Oh, you must be using it for like cockpit cams and stuff like that, like, because they're not really the cockpits they're obviously it's a stage and they're on. They're on gimballed and there's a techno crane and I'm sure they're so my camera was not forgetting those really like small space type stuff. It was really just I was the small camera to find small spaces and get angles that they couldn't or hadn't thought off beforehand.

Alex Ferrari 24:48
Now you would you agree that they found you basic did they find you because of your blog? And because you work with one kind of talking about DSLRs a lot?

Philip Bloom 24:57
Yeah, I think I mean without question who It was the when the five D came along, I didn't embrace it straightaway. The Fray did reverie, of course in November 2008. And I had played with I bought the Nikon D 90 a month before that hated it. I was so excited by the concept of DSLR, I was having a large sensor to better shoot video, but the quality of the nicotine, it was so bad. And then I saw the five D Mark two and when that looks cool, but I have no Canvas, and it only shoots 30 P and I need to shoot 25 p 24. p. So that gets me but I did get to try it for the first time in May. And then realized you could you can get past that the lens limitations and also the fact that there was no manual control by using old Nikon glass with an adapter and and also found a way of converting the set up to 25 p to make it look okay. And so yeah, so I was I you know, once I did, once I figure that out, I really just loved it. And I think that's kind of you know, a lot of people saw my stuff and so I was doing and picked up from there.

Alex Ferrari 26:07
Now can you because I have I have a love hate relationship with DSLRs because I've upgraded I've graded probably about five features that were shot on the DSLR and they've never shot properly. If you shoot the DSLR properly, like you did on Red Tails. I'm sure it looks and I saw the movie. It looks great. Yeah, but most people don't know how to shoot DSLRs properly gets too grainy, like one movie I had was like in the movie in the woods at night with no light. And they're like, hey, why is there so much grain? I'm like, Guys, you know, it's you know, we have we it's not it's it just couldn't work. So What tips do you have with a shooting DSLR now that DSLR is also that you shot red cells which are much different than they are now with the ACS two that can literally look into into the darkness of of hell, and they clean but what what what kind of tips do you have when shooting DSLRs for filmmakers who want to shoot a feature or a short and try to get the most out of that camera.

Philip Bloom 27:09
It's funny that has been quite a few years now since they first came out and the yet the image quality has come on enormously. But the key the key core principles we need to stick to much the same. You need to if you're going to use it use a handheld need to have it on some some sort of rig just to stabilize a little bit because unless you have one you know one of these five axes stabilized sensors, then that's going to help you as well. But that's one of the first things is just make sure if you are going to shoot handheld Just be aware of the terrible issues we can have a rolling shutter which is a huge giveaway for DSLRs is that horrible micro vibrations that we can really see not just jello, not just like rolling shutter he said that you know that you don't wish it really looked like oh my god like somebody's wobbly much caffeine. Sure while they're holding the camera. So be careful that you know using is lens Miss stabilized lens if you haven't got that. But it's know what your camera performs best out with its ISOs. And yes, many of the cameras that you know the a seven s two, you can push your camera much higher, but you still need to expose correctly. So that's one of the things that people aren't doing right. And I do not recommend shooting vlog format on any of the DS laws with eight bit codecs, which is pretty much all of them except the GH five leave and then it's it's still a little bit challenging. It's a it's a hell of a codec, the GH five blog, it's it's, it's really hard to grade. So I would I would suggest No, no, no, no how far you can push your ISO, and then only use it for extreme purposes. It's not a replacement for lighting. It's a way of hopefully being able to film in environments that you couldn't normally film in. That's basically what their solarz were excited to me about was was apart from the size and the optics was just this just I think it was the ability to push that low light up a little bit like that. And I think when the SMS two came out of there, seven s came out initially, it wasn't the fact that I could film in moonlight. It was the fact that I could film in street light but not wide open, which is what too many people are still doing when choosing on DSLRs. That's the other tip is just because you've got an F 1.4 lens doesn't mean you should shoot at F one point for every single shot, right. It's incredibly hard to keep focus. We do have some cameras coming out now with pretty decent autofocus. But it's still not necessarily the way to go. That's a different thing. I would use that for certain things like interviews and stuff like that other than that, it's being sensible with it being sensible. So I would say the key things is going to be Don't be shooting wide open. Keep your camera stable if you can, as much as possible, don't push your ISO too far and don't fall into temptation of shooting log unless you absolutely have to proper video cameras with 10 bit codecs or shoot log fantastic. But eight bit compressed codecs, whether it's a drone, or DSLR, it's it's a nightmare. And you spend so much time in post just trying to hide all the problems, which if you hadn't done that in the first place you wouldn't be doing

Alex Ferrari 30:31
Now, one thing I really do like about your your work is that you are it's Lisa seems from your blog and from your your YouTube channel that you are not married to any one camera. You're not like, I'm only the Canon guy. I'm only a Blackmagic. I'm only a Nikon guy. I'm only an Erica, you. You use multiple cameras, depending on your job. Can you can you suggest or show people how or advice on how you could pick the right camera for the right job, which I think it's so, so important, because I think sometimes it's just trying to use a hammer to screw in a lightbulb. It's like just hammer it. There are other tools.

Philip Bloom 31:13
Yeah, I mean, that's, yeah. Back in the candidates, I was approached to be one of their ambassadors. And I said no, because I wanted to, I didn't want to be tied to any format. I had an independent voice. I didn't want to lose that. And also didn't want to lose out on the fact that I you know, other people gonna make cool cameras in their phone. I don't want to be like, Oh, no, I can't use this because I'm signed in, signed up with these guys. And so yeah, I'm, and I'm always gonna be like this because I, I'm very fickle, and I will fall in love with a camera, and then something else will come along and turn my head and go, Oh, no, use this now. And, and so yeah, I mean, when it comes to life photography, I mean cameras, Pentax and Fuji cameras. And, and so but when it comes to video, I my main video cameras or Sony, but I also have canon ones as well. And I have lots of different types of of them and and I guess I am lucky that I can be in that position of saying the right tool for the right job. And obviously, if you you've already got one camera, then you're going to be a little bit stuck and kind of that's your your camera for the job. But if it's if it's important, then I would certainly try and rent it or find somebody who's got something that would be more appropriate for your job. Because you're right, it's it's, you see people using totally the wrong cameras, when it could be something as simple as you can have a chocolate bar, so they try to use a Blackmagic Ursa mini for wedding videos and like you crazy. We try to do Yeah, but I'm sure we can shoot RAW, raw, like why you should enjoy in the first place for a wedding video. And the camera they can't put over 800 ISO and a wedding video with no control of your lighting and probably no lights. Sure, crazy itself nice and nice to write. You know, and so somebody who's Oh, I want to do you know, some visual effects and that it's all going to be green screen and stuff like that. I'm shooting on an 87x. And I'll be like, why that's the wrong camera for you for doing this. Right, you should get yourself Blackmagic submitty because that shoots raw and that shoots 10 bit progress. And that's going to be much better for you and it's still pretty cheap. And you're already in his lip. It's already late because it has to be because in a studio and green screen, so they have to worry about the fact that you can't push your ISO. Right. So I mean that you know that's that's the best thing about like the black magics is is working in lit controlled locations. They do really well with that. And then we have to push it too far. Because they're the cheapest cameras I know of that have a terrific inbuilt codec or Pro. It's gorgeous hand roll if you need it. You know having to deal with all of these nasty compressed v frame codecs all the time eight bit ones when you get committed to shoot straight pro rated like Oh, no transcoding. Oh, my this system works with it. And I can grade it, it doesn't fall apart. Wow. Fantastic. So that's kind of what you need to look at is what but if you know it's safe, you don't have to Tamar, that it's a bit harder. I mean, I interesting. I read on reading Facebook today and a dp guy I know. And he was asking about time lapse. He's got a red, epic W and he's complaining about the fact that the time lapse ability of the camera is basically lacking in that you can't do more than one frame a second and say currently long exposures right tool for the right job. This is a 70,000 whatever it is dollar camera, right? Just get a $2,000 DSLR that's going to shoot RAW, shoot long exposure, shoot everything you wanted to do the right job and doesn't doesn't tie up your 70 or 1000 Dollar camera. There's a time lapse. So

Alex Ferrari 35:03
Yeah, I think yeah, I think a lot of times filmmakers DPS, they spend 70 grand on a camera and they wanted to do everything and be perfect for everything. And a lot of times you, right, you, you have that ability in your work has shown that you could just like, you know what I yes, I have a $70,000 camera, but, you know, it's like I have a Porsche, but I'm not going to drive to the supermarket with a Porsche where I could easily either just walk or, or or drive my Prius, you know, it's just the right tool for the right job. kind of thing. Yeah.

Philip Bloom 35:33
Yeah. I suppose if you have spent 70,000, you kind of insistent on the fact that oh, my God, I'm going to get every single last pennies worth out of this camera. Right. But, you know, I said this in, in many times. And I've also got this policy now of not wanting to, I'm never going to buy a camera over $10,000 again. And I've done that like three times now. Yes, before. And now it's just, there's loads of great cameras sub 10,000. Not so much. And if you need anything more than just rent it because it's just not worth it. Because they get cheated, they get superseded so quickly these days. And it's just not really worth spending all that money, especially in a system that you could end up changing in a read requires so many bits and pieces, and maybe then you'll switch to area who knows. But it's I just think there's so many great cameras out there for for the sub that just just stick with that. Really, unless you're super rich because I bought a Sony f 35. And with allowes Last time, I bought a really expensive camera. And I loved it, it was amazing. And then the FS seven came out, and it did everything I needed it to do for documentaries without me worrying about my hugely expensive camera being potentially damaged and stuff like that. So I found that it was sitting on the shelf for like six months hadn't really been touched and the FSM was being used all the time. And so I sold it and that was when I decided this is silly I should now you know I'm not going to buy the expensive camera again. So because the FS seven did everything I needed to do it didn't shoot RAW easily. Didn't matter because I didn't need to shoot RAW right right. Yeah, the rifle

Alex Ferrari 37:17
Yeah, and I'm a huge fan of the Blackmagic I shot my feature on the 2.5k Cinema Yeah, and the pocket is arguably some of the most beautiful images come out of that little camera you know again right tool for the right job you know if I'm going to go shoot an IMAX This is not the tool for you. But if you're creating this kind of almost Super 16 style film look out of the box that that little pocket camera is amazing and the Ursa Mini is is one of the most underrated I think cameras out there because it's not as sexy as the red or the Alexa a man it has a bite Would you agree?

Philip Bloom 37:54
Yeah, I haven't shot anything properly myself with the 4.6 Ursa mini I really liked what I go with it though I had definitely had issues with as a from a documentary background with the fact the buy in is available light I will I knew I was going to come a Cropper and there are some quirks here and there which slow me down but I thought for the money the image was fantastic and I've always found it disappointing that they well they went with originally with the the Ursa which was the craziest camera Oh the

Alex Ferrari 38:27
The first one was hard

Philip Bloom 38:28
Yeah That was funny. I mean I went to a trade show Yes. And I remember the first time I picked it up I just you know in front of them that they've let me pick it up and I went holy crap anyway yeah we don't really consider this a handheld camera I like what kind of world do you live in? What is that he was he was a camera should be anything he shouldn't we consider this a tripod camera might blind me Sure studio camera is a tripod camera but this is crazy sure, but I just wish that develops the pocket camera but I wish that made no version of that because that really is the I think is my favorite camera that I like bought from them yes in size and form I had loads of issues while but what it gave you was astonishing in the package

Alex Ferrari 39:22
I wish they would do 4k like if they could do 4k in that little camera with raw in progress and handle the damn battery issue it's just

Philip Bloom 39:29
Yes

Alex Ferrari 39:30
Just do something better with the battery if the plug in a juice box or something like that now whenever the juice box it will run six seven hours but still it's like a little bit more bulky but God that little camera is good and the Micro Four Thirds opens you up to so much glass especially vintage glass that I'm a big vintage glass guy and it's it really is gorgeous It is wonderful camera.

Philip Bloom 39:53
Yeah, it's just a shame that they didn't really know they just seem to just forgot this has gotten battered and they have their micro camera setup. I call it this is not the same, it's not the same thing. It's so I don't know if then they'll ever go back to that the SMD pro looks I have never played with it it looks like a soldier many of the operational issues they had with the previous one so

Alex Ferrari 40:14
They have solved that I shot a shot a series with it and I shot with the new one and the old one. And they both work like champs but the brand new one that they just released the time code on the on the side and everything it's solved. It's a tank now it really is a tank and it's you'd like you're right if you push it a little too. It's not. I always I did a test between the Aerie Alexa and the end the Ursa Mini, and I shot them down the middle. And when you shoot them down the middle, man, yeah, it's pretty damn close. It's definitely not you can tell it's not worth spending 80 grand or whatever the Alexa cost now, comparatively, all down the mirror, you just start seeing where the Alexa is worth it. When you start pushing her. When you start pushing on the on the darks and the highlights get clipped a little bit. So if you go a little bit up or down is when you start getting but if you should have done the middle of it. best bang for your buck.

Philip Bloom 41:07
But let me ask you, though, if you were given, somebody said I'm going to swap out your Ursus for aerial axes for free. You'd go Yeah, right. Of course you would. We'll work because they're amazing. But you're right it's unless I dated people I know who own a Lexus smart bought a Lexus, our DPS who read them to the production's share first. So that's those are people who who should be buying a Lexus the rest of us should be renting them in. absolutely need them.

Alex Ferrari 41:42
Absolutely. Now, do you have any advice on how you test a new camera which I know a lot of filmmakers get their cameras and they really don't know how to push it or test it or you know, put it through the through the wringer a little bit to see if it's even worth it.

Philip Bloom 41:55
Yeah, so me It totally is totally real world. It's it taking out of other kind of other working studios as such I do work in doors and things like that, but that working studio so I want to see how it works with unpredictable lighting. I want to see how it operates as a camera is how slow is to figure out I think the last time I tested was the Canon c 200. And I kind of I actually really liked it it's a bit of a strange quirky camera in that it has a terrific inbuilt inbuilt feature called 12 bit raw internally and yet the if you can't do roll then you have to do an eight bit right 14 okay that which is so bizarre to have no middle ground I mean we all know it's a cannon protecting its other cameras issue right but it's but other than that it's actually really nice image and a really nice camera and for me I just wanted to see the things which that it was a selling point really which was the the role the autofocus and just what the eight bit codec was like so those are kind of the headline features I was looking at to see what they're like and this like when I'm getting our hands on the the ETA one from Panasonic what I want to see is what this July so is going to like what sort of noise levels Am I getting because the main selling point is that you can shoot in low light conditions by switching to different the higher native setting so want to see what that's like there's kind of I look at the headline features of the camera and go Okay, I need to see what this actually is like and then as well do the everyday the bread and butter type stuff to see how it actually works for real use because obviously you need to if it may well have a really cool feature but if it doesn't operate the camera well just generally then it's it's a bit pointless. And it takes me back to when I saw the was when the Sony A seven s came out and it was all about all about how amazing the low light was. And they released a video and it was I watched it and I was like Okay, it looks nice. It's nicely shot and it was like fishermen in Scotland or something and it was all shot high ISO and it showed you a couple of exactly what it was six

Alex Ferrari 44:19
Or something like that

Philip Bloom 44:20
Even though like nighttime it looked like daytime or something right and which was fine but because it it was like that all the way through I had no sense of any of what it was doing. And so I got the camera on loan from them just before it was released and went Alright, I'm gonna take this down down to Brighton and in south of England and then just really just see what this is like and so I did a video and I shot it where I want did I this is what it looks like to the eye which is like 100 ISO and then I shot it at 25,600 ISO which did turn it into like daylight is having this Friends having this ability to do this transition show, this is what I see. And this is what this shows. And that's I mean that's kind of a way to sell the cameras ability because he saw straight away that was like, ah, I now I get it I get what, how amazing this is because I didn't get it before because everything was just brought everything just looked okay look fine. So it's, that's kind of what I when I'm looking at cameras that's kind of I just want to see what makes this special.

Alex Ferrari 45:28
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. Now what are three of your go to lenses? If you're on a desert island? I know it's like picking your children

Philip Bloom 45:50
That question you know religion say one actually one's easier, one's easier and always You didn't tell me what size sensor which sensor we're talking here?

Alex Ferrari 45:58
Let's say full frame.

Philip Bloom 46:00
Okay, all right, then. That's easier. So I would say a 15 millimeter is my first lens without question. Because as long as it's the relative field of view of what we see our eyes so I do love that standard field of view and I can show you pretty much everything on that. And then it gets really tricky because my favorite walk around lens is a 35 mil

Alex Ferrari 46:25
Which was brand?

Philip Bloom 46:29
And you know I don't really have any you to my focal lengths or brands?

Alex Ferrari 46:35
Brands brand brands like like Canon Nightcore

Philip Bloom 46:40
This is getting really hard. So if you you know if you want the really beautiful sharp images and the Sigma art lens is a fantastic

Alex Ferrari 46:53
Amazing

Philip Bloom 46:53
If you want, they are incredibly, but if you want some a little bit more character than sure some of the older knickers are always good for that sort of thing. Nice and cheap.

Alex Ferrari 47:07
Do you use a lot of Do you use a lot of vintage glass? Or do you ever play with it

Philip Bloom 47:11
Occasionally, occasionally, not as much as I used to. I used to these days I tend to use a lot more detailed, sharper lenses. But I still I still do you know when I'm doing any lens whacking freelancing or using my old glass and a lot more for stills I do for stills as well. But for videos, probably less so. But I don't really always a horrible question to ask because I just I love long telephoto is as well.

Alex Ferrari 47:43
Sure it's the right tool for the right job. I know it's like it's a it's a tough question. If someone asked me I have a couple of lenses that I go to all the time. But in there's a couple of fun ones that I I play with like a

Philip Bloom 47:58
Hand and got a great one that I've recently bought 70 to 300 Yes, it's not a standard constant aperture. It's not their white one. It's their their non L series one but it's new ish like last year and it's not that expensive. It's got crazy fast autofocus for doing stills. And build quality is great. It's light and the optics are great. It gives you a huge range so 70 to 300

Alex Ferrari 48:24
What's the How fast is it 35256 I think okay, so it's outdoor soccer but

Philip Bloom 48:33
Yeah, it's an outdoor lens but you know if you if you want a lens which is a you can limit me to three it's really cheap with a long big long zoom that's going to cover a big range and I still have a fast 50 mil for my primes then wide angles I love my big wide angles as well but you know my think my biggest wide angle I've got that is not fisheye is 10 mil which is ridiculous that's avoid lander

Alex Ferrari 48:56
So you haven't avoid it.

Philip Bloom 48:58
It's It's It's boy let them make amazing glass.

Alex Ferrari 49:02
They do.

Philip Bloom 49:03
Well that 10 mil is like I bring it with and I put it on and I take a couple of shots with it. I think I've shot video with it twice maybe briefly. sure if it's too wide, or it's just ridiculous. It's it's an effect lens. So my favorite actual why my favorite focal length in wide is actually around 24 2024 mil around. Yeah, I do like wider than that. But it's you know, it's you can just find myself a little bit too it'd be a little bit too wide. So 2024 is a good sort of middle ground like sigma record rate 24 mil point for that make a 20 mil as well.

Alex Ferrari 49:44
They're 18 to 35 is amazing.

Philip Bloom 49:46
There aren't lens. Yeah, if you've got for crop sensors that it at 35 is fantastic. Yeah. And I and I if you're 20 that gives you your 24 to 2474 frame equivalent, so it's a great lens

Alex Ferrari 49:59
Now If If you want to talk about why my favorite Why'd I have is the canoptek 5.7 micro four thirds, but it doesn't. It doesn't fisheye. That's impressive. It's the it's the Kubrick lens. It's what he shot is the big brother of that is the 9.8 which is for 35 that one is for 16 so I use it with a pocket and with a pocket it just it's amazing. But it doesn't fisheye so if you remember the Sheen's from the shining in the yeah that's all shot with the Coptic as well as the the right before the rape scene and Clockwork Orange that was shot with the Coptic it's one of his It was one of his go to lenses in his in the series, but it's gorgeous. It's such a gorgeous lens. So we're geeking out.

Philip Bloom 50:50
On I mean, I do love my wide angles, and Zeno bought the 10 stuff like that, but um, yeah, sort of like a 1635 zoom is always a good a good, yes. You know, it's one of the things that people ask for advice. And they say what three lenses should I buy? My advice tends to be a call first question is how much money you got? No, point giving them any advice? Because it's such a you know, it's it's an impossible question to answer. And then

Alex Ferrari 51:15
There's the end lenses and what kind of what camera? Are you going to be using it on? Or what are you going to do a shooting film or video? I mean, or photo or motion? It's Yeah, it's, it's a very big question has many multiple answers. Now, do you have any tips? Well, good.

Philip Bloom 51:29
Yeah, I just I mean, just with the five D are just in its it hasn't really changed in five days, simply, you have the three, the three zooms, you're 1635 24 7070 to 200, that covers everything. And then you have a fast prime for everything else d 51.4. And that's kind of what you need to go. But that's 1000s. You know, it's if you're shooting documentaries, you kind of want that flexibility. If you're shooting features and narrative type stuff, then you can shoot on on primes. And not is that the joy of a zoom is the speed which you need when you're shooting documentary. You don't have to worry about that, then you can you can go with cheaper, more vintage primes. So it's a massive question.

Alex Ferrari 52:12
That's a whole podcast in itself. Yeah. Now let's talk a little bit about your masterclass, you nuke a new course that you put together for m Zed? Yeah. Can you talk about what the course is about? And what students can expect in the class?

Philip Bloom 52:25
Yeah, it's, um, I would say it's pretty much my 27 years of experience and knowledge as much as possible, just distilled into the facts of what it's like nine episodes, 131 and eight main episodes, like runs like nine and a half hours or so. And it's, I just wanted initially, m Zed asked me to do something about drones. And I went, yeah, cool. I don't that's gonna be, there's no way I can possibly feel much more than, you know, a couple of hours just on that. And so then I made the mistake of suggesting What if we did it about everything, everything that I do every type of filming styles I do. And then when Yeah, cool. And so then I realized just what I was letting myself in for, because I started breaking it down twice, I should have done that before I suggested it to them. Initially, it was going to be a six hour course. And by the time I started editing, that guide is going to be a lot longer than six hours, because I knew that when I was filming it, that it was going to get bigger and bigger and bigger. Because once you start talking about a subject, you realize you need to go down a path. So when I was breaking it down in pre production, and what we needed to do and figure out which episodes, what topics we should cover. That was kind of you know, where I realized, you know, it was a very good thing to actually make discipline wise, because it did require a lot of people duction. Otherwise, it just was not going to be a practical thing to shoot because it's sure enough as it was. And so I went through the topics that I really wanted to cover. The first one is the first episode is quite dull in in respect, because it's just me in my kitchen, but it's me explaining all of the stuff you actually do need to understand before you go out and shoot, which is all the technical stuff, a little bit of history as to why we're using these cameras and some of the flaws, the problems we can have with them. So it's going through everything you needed to know squeezed into like an hour and 20 minutes and then I went out and then I realized the next episode was okay, now I've got all that stuff out of the way. And I can just focus on being creative. And then it was never really competition is one of the things that's been very natural to me. And I've always been asked how can I improve my composition? And that always, well, you can always read books and to understand how what you're looking for competition. But then you need to work then you need to experiment and then you need to watch movies and TV shows and see how they do things and see what you like and and So that's kind of why this the first episode. So the second episode was all about showing what different lenses do and showing how cool a long telephoto can be on a subject and bringing a background closer to a person and the effect it can have compared to say, a standard lens and a wide angle lens. And then showing people how to move the camera when not to move the camera showing all these toys that can distract you when to use them. I mean, it was just so much in this course. And, and I think it's one of the things that I can look at the the list of the topics, the only really explains half of what you're learning, or did not even that from just what it is. So like, people will say, oh, there's no episode on lighting. I'm like, Well, no, because lighting is in every single every episode. Same with sound she found in every episode. I didn't want to do one because it's all filmed on location. I tackle things real world, much like I've always, I always want to do my reviews. And it's like an extension of that I wanted to show Okay, so I'm gonna do this episodes about interviews. So this is how you deal with getting to location and you know, you don't have the right room, you got to work with the light. One of the issues with the lights was the problems with the sound we have here. What can our background be, and it was really trying to take things as realistically as possible. And unless you're having real problems that I had to solve during the actual shoot, and showing them how I would deal with it. So that was kind of what I was trying to get with it.

Alex Ferrari 56:34
Well, I'm excited to to watch it myself. And I will definitely put all the information in the show notes for this episode for everyone to take a look at now. I have a few few more questions if you have some time. Sure. Yeah, sure. you've traveled pretty much all over the planet at this point in your career. Do you have any travel hacks for filmmakers? In what respect in their words of traveling, packing, getting things through? Oh, I mean, like you know, getting cheaper deals or even just even be able to pack all your gear what gear to bring with don't overpack. Yeah, everything. Like there's a bunch of stuff. Any any tips at all? Because I know Yeah, in today's world traveling, yeah, traveling with a bunch of gear and keeping it safe. And you're walking around with 20,000 bucks in your backpack? You know, it's like, it's pretty rough.

Philip Bloom 57:26
It's the worst thing about my job by far is the traveling. It's not the it's not that it's the traveling bit itself. It's not being in other places. That's the coolest bit. Sure. It's the getting there is the worst bet it is. And it's the most stressful thing is packing and figuring out what you need your weight allowances in whenever I'm booked on jobs. And I need to look up flight routes and see who flies there. Because I know which airlines have the better baggage policies. You're you're lucky you live in the states and you think you have bad baggage policies that you do not. You also write even your worst baggage allowance part of the policy with an airline is amazing compared to what we have to deal with here. There's like two airlines that fly out that the UK airlines, British Airways and Virgin Atlantic who charge you per bag, everybody else charges you per kilo. Ah, so that is where things start getting crazy expensive. So I think the most I've ever spent on excess baggage, probably about three and a half 1000 pounds each way.

Alex Ferrari 58:43
Three and a half 1000 pounds.

Philip Bloom 58:45
Yeah. And that was it was a great as a job in in Japan. And the client had insisted on flying via Amsterdam with KLM KLM charge per kilo. And I told them, this is expensive, and they didn't listen to me and then they had to pay. And so you choose the airlines for reason. You it's worth if you're flying entirely in the USA. So if I fly to the US, you get like two bags. There's your minimum allowance. But if you fly anywhere else from from London, you'd get one bag. So I guess you guys have just managed to negotiate a better thing and

Alex Ferrari 59:25
We and we think it's horrible. It's absolutely atrocious.

Philip Bloom 59:28
Yeah, it's worth seeing if you can get some media accreditation because there's a number of airlines which give you better deals. Southwestern Delta, United a couple of others. There's a few of them out there which you know if you've got problem with media accreditation can save you a lot. I mean delta will also you know quite good in that they will let you I think like 50 bucks or probably change 30 bucks per bag up to 100 pounds which is crazy. Just remember that the important stuff always has to be carried with you. And we're supposed to carry out our lithium ion batteries as carry on luggage. So know your rights with the airlines, because I guarantee you, they don't know your rights. So you will they will tell you something and like, actually, no, if you look at the policy on your website, this shows you what you're allowed. And again, let me check on my and they go, and then they'll confer with somebody else. So this happens all the time. They need to understand what you are allowed and what you can't do. You know, when it comes to batteries, you got to be careful about the what hours you have on some of the drone batteries, some of the larger era batteries, you can you can take like two per person. So make sure you fly with somebody else who can help you out with that. I do check a lot of expensive stuff. You have to because of your your carry on limits. Sure. Sure. And I don't use petty cases of Pelican cases. The simple reason being is yes, they offer great protection, but they look expensive. Yep. And stealable Yep. And so my luggage looks really unfilmed gear like it's still really protected inside. It just doesn't look like if and that's I look like average luggage. And if you know if you can get the pinkest most colorful, garish looking luggage with Hello Kitty stickers on. Do it. 1000 valuables nobody's gonna steal it.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:45
That's great advice. Actually, that's awesome. Yeah,

Philip Bloom 1:01:49
I really think Petey should Pelican should make a series of I think, yeah, I you know, when I have had to fly with with the hard cases, whether it'd be like for mobi or a drone ohnaka and inspire, then I cover them with stickers, like superheroes and stuff like that really do my those hard cases got Superman stickers on everything, it just doesn't look like professional film gear anymore. Try to disguise it as much as possible. It's, it's a big old topic. And it's a difficult one. And it's and then you get because certain countries will need you if you're taking professional film gear into be to have a proper document accardi, which costs a lot of money. And you need to have everything itemized and listed. But some countries won't accept that. And you have to negotiate with them beforehand, or find out what you needed to have there. And this is why sometimes it's really nice just to go with a small DSLR style camera, and just try and not be obvious. If it's if it's difficult to get to be too or too expensive to have that then it's try and go in. But you are always going to have a risk if you are doing a paid job. And you try to try to cut corners and not get a carny and go to the tourist and not get the correct visa and you you're gay get stopped and doesn't get brought in. That's your fault. And it's just one of these things. If you're doing it for a client, you have to pass on these costs to them, explain to them okay, well, we're going here. And we need this and, and it's just one of the things flying is just absolutely horrendous. And, you know, there's really every day you know, there's always a new story about how the FAA or wherever it is are going to change what we can share data saying anything with any lithium ion battery cannot be checked. And then and then no camera can be checked. And it's kind of like no professional electronic gear can be checked online at some point soon. If this goes down this road. I don't think we'll ever be able to fly abroad with our gear anymore. We'll just have the era of the rental company is going to be there because every speaking FM a major rental outlet, every single city in every single place because we can't fly with anything. Which be terrible, terrible if that ever happens. But yeah, it's I hate it. I hate it so much. I always bring too much always bring too much. So make the best advice I say is just make a list beforehand. And just bring what you need. Maybe you know a couple of backup things as much as possible. Like I always have a second camera just in case. But but kind of the obvious stuff. Really.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:32
Okay. Batteries always bring back extra batteries. Oh god. Yeah. batteries, batteries, batteries. Now um, what advice would you give a filmmaker wanting to break into the business today?

Philip Bloom 1:04:44
Ah, I guess the first question is why do you want to as long as doing it for the right reasons and that's great. It's not you know, you never was not a business to get rich in two.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:56
Gonna say it's not rich and famous. That's not the reason why to get in?

Philip Bloom 1:05:00
Ohh no. Go and become a banker or something you want if you just want to do something creative and you because you get into because you want to be creative. So that's my best advice to start with. And it's a tricky thing, it's, it's one of the things that I think this is kind of partly why it's so good to have. This course I've done with em, Zed is it. Whilst it's not a film, school replacement, it condenses all of my knowledge into this one thing. So people watch it, they can get, you're not gonna become a filmmaker from watching this, but you're going to get a lot of knowledge from it. And hopefully use that knowledge to find your own style and voice and know how to do things a bit better. Because that's what you're going to need to do, you're going to need to be patient, which a lot of people aren't these days, or too much like, wanting stuff to happen overnight. I think my best example of this was a guy did. So I do this, I do some private tuition with people. And this guy emailed me saying he wanted to get to make a short film to be entered into next year's Cannes Film Festival. And he wants some training for that. I'm like, interesting. And so I asked him to tell me, it's a really strange way of actually wording things. And yes, I want to make,

Alex Ferrari 1:06:26
I'm gonna submit it to the Oscars. It's been submitted to the Oscars.

Philip Bloom 1:06:29
Yeah, I'd like to win an Oscar. So I'd like to do some training. I have not won an Oscar. So I'm the wrong person. That comes to me. But I said to him, so what is it? What do you want to do? What do you want to learn from say, I want to get a grounding of light, you know, things which can help me make me be able to make this film. I was so What experience do you have? None. I've never used the camera. I've never made a film. Oh, God. But I've, I've seen lots of film. Oh. So I then said, Well, I don't know how long you're expecting, trading wise for me. But

Alex Ferrari 1:07:06
You got 10 years

Philip Bloom 1:07:08
How long do you expect? What do you want for me? Exactly. And he said, maybe? How much would it cost for two hours of training?

Alex Ferrari 1:07:22
Oh, my God, you gotta be kidding.

Philip Bloom 1:07:24
I reply to everything when you know, that's not going to be enough. And then he replied, saying, well, we're about four. That's where the conversation I felt like a practical joke. But it wasn't I was being deadly serious. And it's one of the things you've got to be so patient with. And you've got to work your ass off for years. For years for years. Yeah, absolutely. It's before, you know, when I left sky, I was senior care man. And you know, I couldn't go any further at the company without going into management, leaving the camera behind. And then when I left, I didn't want to do news anymore. So I had to start completely again from the bottom. And it took me four years to start getting the work that I really wanted to do, even after being 17 years in another aspect of the business. Exactly. So it's, and now there's a huge amount of more competition than there was even 11 years ago. So it's you've got to be really patient. And you've you've got to be obviously got to have talent, you got to have the ability to sell yourself as well. And it's not something to be embarrassed about and talk about not talk about, you know, it's a business or any job, any job where you are selling yourself and your skills, its business and you have to be able to sell yourself I remember what would this guy who's such talented director, filmmaker, but wasn't doing anywhere near the work he should be because he just was a terrible salesman. So you've got to have that skill as well find good people to work with try and network as much as you can with people. I'm not sure you know, a Facebook group is not the same as open networking, whilst it can be useful. It's just there's so much noise on there. It's It's everything has become so diluted, it's much much much harder to find clear voices. Yep. Listen to. But at the end of the day, if you can make it in this as a business, then it's a career, then fantastic, because it is the mean it's the greatest thing in the world to be able to to be able to do what I would do if you weren't paying me and pay me for stuff as well. That's great. But you got to understand that most of the time that you get paid, you won't like what you're doing. You won't like the work that you're producing. Yes. Amen. And let it go and Then do stuff yourself to have that creative fulfillment. Because when you're doing a corporate for some guy, you're gonna, you're gonna look at a girl guide. And they're going to tell it, you're working for them. You're not you're not making, they're not hiring you to make a Philip bloom film, that how you make a film. They're, they're the client, you make it for them. And yeah, you've got to make it as good as you possibly can, they probably come to you because they've seen something that you've done, right? But the end of the day, you are going to find that you are not going to love what's been done with your, what you've made necessarily, or what's been done with your work. And you just have to accept that and move on. Now what, wait, they'll give everything to it, just because it is not just a crappy thing. still get everything to it. Because you can still be you can still be creative, you can still get so much out of it yourself. And when you get home, you don't feel like oh my God, what a terrible day, I had to film this worst call center ever. It was all for lighting, bla bla bla bla bla bla bla, that's fine. But if you made an effort and made it look good, then you can come home and go and pour yourself a drink and go I deserve this because I I made that look good. And you're happy. You won't come home and feel better ever.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:18
God Yes. And there are a lot of bitter filmmakers out there without question because they fall into that trap. And when I when I spoke to work with Robert Forester, and he gave a great piece of advice, which is like no matter how small the job, give yourself, give it 110% because you never know who's watching. You never know who's on set, or who will see that work and maybe hire you for another job somewhere else.

Philip Bloom 1:11:42
Even then, even that client, they may give you this really terrible job. Yep. And then they see my God, this was really bad and can't believe how good you made this. You're perfect for this, this job that we have six months in the Seychelles, right? All right, great.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:59
And that you never know. You never know. You never know what you're gonna get. Now, what's the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Philip Bloom 1:12:10
Oh don't kill yourself with work. Take set yourself. time where you stop. Now, my edit suite is I have a home edit suite, which is financially convenient. And obviously nice and handy. There's no commute for me when I'm editing. But that divide between work and life is really difficult. And so when I am editing apart from I mean, when I was cutting him dead serious Mind you, I had to break this most times because I was working, stupid long hours editing. But for most jobs, I kind of set myself if it's 630 to 7pm I'm like, okay, no more work up to seven. And be disciplined about it. discipline that you start time disciplined about your finish time. And make sure you give yourself time to see your your girlfriend, your boyfriend, your husband, your friends, your children. Sure, make sure you have a life. I very rarely work weekends now. Unless the shoot demands it or you know, I have to go somewhere. So I will down towards that weekend. Yeah, you still find me with a camera, you're still seeing find me flying a drone or taking photos somewhere. But that's me. That's my own time. And unless you can find yourself a girlfriend to who'd like to do it with you. Always good. Myself and Sarah loves, loves shooting and she loves all that stuff as well. So that really does help. But I think it's really important to get the work life balance, right. And it took me probably about 20 years or so to start realizing how off it was. Yes. And now I work way less than I used to write. I probably work I probably work half as much as I used to two years ago. So yeah, I earn a lot less, but I'm a lot happier.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:14
And that's really nice.

Philip Bloom 1:14:16
It is priceless. It also makes my work better. But yes, I'm happier.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:21
Yes. very diligently.

Philip Bloom 1:14:23
Yeah, I think that's probably the best thing I've learned took me a long time to learn it. I'm very stubborn. But I eventually figured out

Alex Ferrari 1:14:32
I feel you 100% I try to do exactly all those things. I don't work weekends. And I have a specific time I come in and a specific time I come out every day. And because everyone always asked how do you create so much content? How do you you know run this this, you know this big blog and do all the stuff you do and have twins and have a family and all this Mike, you got to you got to do exactly what you said. Got to be very strict with yourself. And

Philip Bloom 1:14:55
I'm impressed. I mean, you got kids. I mean I haven't got kids yet and I don't even know How I'll cope with having kids as well. Apart from I'll probably just film them a lot.

Alex Ferrari 1:15:05
Yes, they were probably the most documented children in history without question. I think they probably will. Yeah. And last question, what are three of your favorite films of all time? Oh, you know, it's an impossible question. Just today today, what do you feel like today?

Philip Bloom 1:15:20
Oh, um, I still want to go with Empire Strikes Back is in is in always in my top three? Absolutely. It was. It was. That was one of the first films I ever saw as a kid where I still remember the emotional reaction I had. Also that, and it's still watch it today. And I still feel Wow, this is incredible. I'm also a huge Alfred Hitchcock fan. Yes. And find it difficult to pick a favorite. But again, I think for the emotional impact, or maybe it's another film with a downer ending. That's vertigo. Yeah. It's just such an incredible film in every way. I think I just think of all my favorites, or have such downer endings. I don't know why I actually like happy endings. I like things to I want to I don't want to feel like like I felt at the end of seven every time I see a film.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:17
I know. Right? Yes. Like that's Fincher for you. That's Gone Girl. I'm like, holy crap. No, the worst date film of all time. Yes, they are. The worst. Is that fatal attraction and fatal your breakup

Philip Bloom 1:16:37
Fatal Attraction break up now shares your Yeah, that's not a good one as well. I guess what? And I think maybe something more recent. I don't know. But of the films that I've seen recently, what another one that had a really good emotional impact on me was Danny bill knows arrival last year.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:56
Yeah, that was actually a really interesting. That's such an interesting film to watch.

Philip Bloom 1:17:01
It's not my favorite film. Now. It was my favorite film of the year. And in I saw blade runner 2049 last week, and that's, again, incredible. Oh, yeah. He's an amazing filmmaker. But I always tend to go back to the same films I end up watching again and again, again, whether it's original Planet of the Apes. Sure. I love love my sci fi very much. And invaders. ravenloft are

Alex Ferrari 1:17:27
Of course

Philip Bloom 1:17:28
Perfect film than Raiders.

Alex Ferrari 1:17:30
Raiders is is, is perfect. It is a perfect film. And since you're a Hitchcock fan, have you seen the new documentary? 7852? No, I have not. Have you heard of it? No, I have not. I just found out. I just found out about it the other day. Well, it's on iTunes. I watched it yesterday. And it is an entire documentary about the shower scene in psycho. Wow. And they go through every shot. And they talk to everything in the impact of psycho. But they've literally break down everything about the shower scene, which is arguably the you know, 90 seconds, the most important 90 seconds in film history. Honestly, some of them yeah, I mean, what he was able to do in that shower sequence. But someone put together arguably a really good documentary shot in black and white by the way. It's gorgeous. It's on iTunes, you definitely should watch if any film geek, definitely Hitchcock fan will love it. Yeah. Anybody who has not seen psycho, what the hell are you doing? Why are you listening to us? Go watch psycho.

Philip Bloom 1:18:32
Watch this film. That is if you take the sections, which obviously date the film, which is the beginning, the anything that anything outside of just the motel is it stands up completely today. It could have been that it's just so incredible. And I just some of the it's the most innovative filmmaking you'll ever say. And we're talking

Alex Ferrari 1:18:57
1960 it's we could do a whole episode just on psycho without question. Now, where can where can people find you and your work?

Philip Bloom 1:19:14
My website is philipbloom.net. So it's P H I L I P B L O O M, and my blog is there and that is the same Philip Bloom is what I have for all of my social media, whether it's instagram, facebook, twitter,it's just

Alex Ferrari 1:19:33
My space my space geo cities No, sorry. You know, it probably is still there Mises to properly

Philip Bloom 1:19:39
I haven't really used it as such. Right. It's one of the things I do have. But yeah, so it's pretty simple to find me and I'm quite active. I'm pretty active on them. And it is a real mixture of photography, filmmaking, and personal stuff. I put some I do put personal stuff on social media. That's kind of you know, Another, it's a whole podcast is about, you know, yes, you will have a dividing line between this sort of thing. And I think it's important that to be to be to be you on social media. And that's why I always say my bio silly grumpy so depending on how I'm feeling, I will be like that. And I put some personal stuff up there and I put some perfect everything I tried to make as nice as possible. And a nice mix and I just try and make it feel as as, as me as it is, you know, like the M Zed course, it's me what you see is a very, I'm very different anything else you will ever see training wise, because it's it's very personal. And I kind of think that kind of sums me up reading and how I like to share things.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:46
Philip man, thank you so much for taking the time out. It's been an absolute joy speaking to you man. Thank you so much.

Philip Bloom 1:20:52
Thank you very much for having me. Thank you.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:54
I can't tell you what an absolute thrill and pleasure was to talk to Phil up and you know, after reading his blog for so long and and listening to him on YouTube. And I mean, if you need to know about camera gear, and and reviews about camera gear and things like that, man, I definitely check his website out, I'm gonna leave all his links in the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com/208. And as promised, link to his amazing online course, just go to indiefilmhustle.com/bloom, that's bloom, indiefilmhustle.com/bloom, like I said, it's almost 10 hours. And as a special gift to the tribe, you get to watch the first lesson for free. And he goes over so many things in this course, things I wish I would have learned or wonder what you'd known about when I first started out in the business. And you don't even have to buy the entire course, if you just want to buy modules of the course like visual storytelling, how to do interview, slow motion, Time Lapse, aerial cinematography, with drones, how to really work with story post production, or just the basics, lens whacking things like that, you can buy them per module, or you can buy the entire course, I say get the entire course. It's definitely well worth it, guys. And I wanted to take a quick second before we go to thank you all for emailing me, and, and giving me all these amazing emails and letters about how the podcast and the work that I'm doing with indie film hustle has affected your lives, it really means a lot to me. I'm really, really grateful and humbled. Every time I get an email, I try to email everybody back, I try to return everybody's letter, in one way, shape, or form. I'm only one guy so I do the best I can. But I want to just publicly say thank you again, so much. And I will keep doing this as long as I can. Because I know how much it really helps you guys out there. And please spread the word about the podcast, about the blog about the YouTube channel about everything we do at indie film, hustle. So we can help as many filmmakers, as many screenwriters, as many artists as we can, with the knowledge that I'm trying to put out into the world and the good, positive energy that I'm trying to put out into the world and helping you guys all out. So again, thank you very much. I truly truly appreciate it. And as always, keep that also going. Keep that dream alive and I'll talk to you soon.

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James Cameron Screenplays (Download)

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What can be said of the most successful writer/director of all time? James Cameron is in a league of his own. His filmography doesn’t have a failure in it. From Terminator to the #1 and #2 biggest movies of all time, Titantic and Avatar. I can wait to see what he comes up with next.

Take a listen to James Cameron Masterclass as he discusses his films and storytelling techniques. The screenplays below are the only ones that are available online.

When you are done reading take a listen to Apple #1 Screenwriting Podcast The Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, with guest like Oscar Winner Eric Roth, James V. Hart, David Chase, John August, Oliver Stone and more.

(NOTE: For educational and research purposes only).

TERMINATOR  (1984)

Screenplay by James Cameron –  Read the screenplay!

RAMBO: FIRST BLOOD PART II (1985)

Screenplay by James Cameron – Read the screenplay!

ALIENS (1985)

Screenplay by James Cameron –  Read the screenplay!

THE ABYSS (1988)

Screenplay by James Cameron –  Read the screenplay!

TERMINATOR 2: JUDGEMENT DAY (1991)

Screenplay by James Cameron –  Read the screenplay!

STRANGE DAYS (1993)

Screenplay by James Cameron & Jay Cocks –  Read the screenplay!

SPIDER-MAN (1993)

Screenplay by James Cameron, Barry Cohen, and Ted Newson (UNPRODUCED) –  Read the screenplay!

TRUE LIES (1994)

Screenplay by James Cameron –  Read the screenplay!

T2: 3D BATTLE ACROSS TIME (1995)

Screenplay by James Cameron –  Read the screenplay!

TITANIC  (1998)

Screenplay by James Cameron –  Read the screenplay!
Screenplay by James Cameron –  Read Text Version

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AVATAR (2009)

Screenplay by James Cameron & Jay Cocks –  Read the screenplay!

SHORTCODE - SCREENPLAYS

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SHORTCODE - TV SCRIPTS

Do you Want to read all the television pilots from the 2016-2021 seasons?

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IFH 207: Inside the Visual Effects of Star Wars: The Last Jedi & ILM with Dan Cregan

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Right-click here to download the MP3

Ever wonder what it is like to work at ILM (Industrial Light and Magic) on a Star Wars film? Today’s guest is one of my best friends, Dan Cregan. Dan and I go way, way back. He worked with my doing VFX on my first film BROKEN.

We’ve continued to work together over the past 12 years. Dan has moved up in the VFX world working on blockbuster films like:

  • Star Wars: Rogue One
  • Star Wars: The Last Jedi
  • The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug
  • Spectre
  • The Martian
  • Guardians of the Galaxy
  • X-Men: Apocolypse
  • Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Men Tell No Tales
  • Fantastic Four
  • Dawn of the Planet of the Apes

I wanted to bring Dan back on the show to share his experience working behind the scenes of Star Wars: The Last Jedi and ILM. Enjoy my conversation with Dan Cregan. May the force be with you.

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Alex Ferrari 0:21
And today we are going to release a special episode. And it is an episode with my good buddy, one of my best friends in the whole world, Dan Cregan, who is a VFX guru or slash Jedi. And he worked on not only Rogue One at ILM, but he also just finished working on the last Jedi and I wanted to haven't had him on he was number episode number six of the original time he was on the podcast. And he's one of the rare re invites the comeback. And it's been almost over 200 episodes since he's been here. And I wanted to dig in. He's been very busy. He's worked on a lot of big movies over the course of the last couple years. And I really wanted to dig in on what it's like to work at ILM, what their workflow is like what the effects are like, working at that high level and advice for VFX artists, advice for filmmakers on how to deal with VFX artists. And we also geek out a little bit as you know we would so without any further ado, here is my conversation with VFX Jedi Dan Cregan. I'd like to welcome back onto the show returning champion Dan Cregan. What's up brother?

Dan Cregan 2:47
How's it going?

Alex Ferrari 2:48
Dan, you are my you. I think my first or second interview. You know you were you were episode six, or you were episode six. But you were one of my first actual interview is not just me yapping. So it's been over 200 episodes since.

Dan Cregan 3:08
Wow.

Alex Ferrari 3:09
So it's insane, brother. So thanks for coming back. And you've been busy

Dan Cregan 3:13
This little thing you're doing and it might be taken off a little bit, you know, a little bit.

Alex Ferrari 3:16
It's it's you know what, it's helping a lot of filmmakers and a lot of artists out there. And that's that's the goal and what I do with Indie film hustle, but yeah, it is it's taken up more of my time than it did back when I recorded originally. And you have been semi busy as well as

Dan Cregan 3:33
A little bit over a little bit

Alex Ferrari 3:34
Over the last couple years. Last we heard you were working your your big movie had Buffett just finished was Guardians of the Galaxy, and The Hobbit. But since then you have what you finally got to Mecca, which is for all visual effects artists, Industrial Light and Magic. And I wanted to bring you on the show because this week, the last Jedi gets released. And I have an inside friend who was there while making it you helped make the movie and has yet and has, from what you tell me seen it at least 20 times will be by the way, no spoilers at all. So don't worry about spoilers for the movie. But before we even get to last Jedi, as long as I've known you, you've always wanted to work at ILM, Industrial Light and Magic for anybody who doesn't know what that is. And what is it finally, what was it like finally getting to like walk through those hallowed halls and work?

Dan Cregan 4:31
Well, it was very surreal. I mean, maybe that's an overused thing to say, no, this was surreal, but it was surreal in in the very definition of the world word. You know, I was lucky for one I got to work in ILM San Francisco. Now I'm not you know not to say anything against the other branches because there's one in Vancouver. There's one in London, there's one in Singapore. But you know San Francisco is where it all started. That's where the original players still are. You know, that's where the history is, even though they're not in their original building the Presidio has got a lot of history in it, since I think they started episode three at the Presidio. So like 2005. And so, but all the old props are there, and it's like walking through a film museum every day, and all the original posters, and I've seen 95% of all these films on the wall. And, you know, and it's funny, because a lot of the younger artists will be given tours, their family and friends through the, through the facility. And, and they don't know, so many of these movies that I grew up on, that are on these walls, and I and I always had to bite my tongue and try not to interject with, you don't know what that is, this is so and so. Or this isn't something else, you know. So it was, um, it was like being home, you know, and I'm an East coaster, you know, I'm from South Florida. Like you, I hate to remind you of that

Alex Ferrari 5:52
I am I am

Dan Cregan 5:54
So but you know, but I felt very at home in that place. Maybe not in San Francisco as a whole, but, but when I was at work there, it just felt like where I belonged. Because everywhere I looked was a piece of film history, things that I have obsessed about and thought about and probably given way too much time thinking about for that matter. And just being able to walk through those halls and and, and, you know, walk and see directors come and go and and sometimes actors get tours, and they come and they give speeches and man and there's nothing like it. I mean, I dreamed of being in the film business. And this was the epitome of being in the dome business, you know,

Alex Ferrari 6:32
Yeah. And I wish I would have taken you up on the offer to fly up to San Francisco and take that tour. I really do. I'm hoping that you get another gig there soon. So I can actually just jump on a plane for a day and get up there and, and take the tour. It was just hard. talking to my wife about my baby. I'm just gonna jump on a plane and golden tour ILM with Dan for a day. She's like, how old are you? I'm like, I know. I know. Oh, you have been taking a selfie with Yoda found in our two Oh, I would have made an entire event. And the tribe would have would have thanked me for it. But maybe next time I'm sure you'll get called back. So the first movie you worked on at ILM was Star Wars Rogue One, which was your first Star Wars film? It was and arguably one of the best in the in the entire saga in my opinion. I loved it. What did you think of it?

Dan Cregan 7:24
I am really fond of it. Um, I I you know, it's funny I there's a lot of things about it that I love even more than Force Awakens as far as it feels so tied to the original trilogy I grew up in and and, and having Vader in it and everybody's like, not only do you have Vader in your movie, you have the Vader seen that now people may be considered the greatest Vader's seen in all of Star Wars. And so it's just cool to have my name on on the credit roll of that film. And, and, you know, I overall think the movie was a tremendous success. I think the last 40 minutes are where it really sings. I think the last 40 minutes of that film are just perfection. I think there's there's a little too much like planet hopping in the in the first half. And I think it's like just a little confusing, and he doesn't find its rhythm. But once it does, I think the thing is absolutely, just as strong as they come. Now I you know, whenever anybody asked me about any film I've worked on, I always have to stipulate that I don't have a clear vision of it. Because when I was working on Rogue One, I watched it in pieces the same as I did later with last Jedi. I just kind of I saw most of the film before and thought in theaters, and I saw it out of continuity out of order. And I saw it evolve and have different versions. And and you just tend to love it. I mean, when I saw the Vader hallway scene, before, you know anybody else, I jumped out of my desk, you know, I was like, Whoa, you know, and, and the lay ending I said, Whoa, this is crazy. We're really doing this and all those things were amazing, even though I didn't get to work on those shots, you know, so it was amazing just to have to be a part of the team and see those things. And now that everybody's seen them, you know, I couldn't talk about them. I can't you know, you know, I signed so many legal documents and nobody wants to hear about it before it comes out anyway, it would be spoiled. And so when i when i do finally watch it, I have the added baggage of any film I work on I have the added baggage of knowing how it came to be which not it doesn't ruin my enjoyment of a film but it definitely taints it in a certain way to where I can't give a 100% clear review of something that I enjoy it now I have so many friends who are Star Wars fans and they and they were all talking to me oh it's the best since Empire and it's amazing and I love it more than then you know anything that's come out in Star Wars since the original trilogy and you know so I've heard a lot of that and i and i love that I've been a part of it but to me there's there's a slight difference when you When you're behind the curtain, and you see all the pieces come together, it takes away a little of your objectivity. So that's the cost, the cost of achieving your dream of working on on your childhood fantasies is that you do put a little dent in those fantasies, at least, you can enjoy the new ones as a fan. And, and that being said, When Force Awakens came out, it actually was the other way around. I hadn't worked on it, but I had friends who worked on it, and I was jealous, I was so jealous, and it ruin the film a little bit for me, because all I could think about was I wanted that job so bad. And I didn't make it and now here it is, and now Han Solo is dead. And I'll never

Alex Ferrari 10:38
No one people have seen it.

Dan Cregan 10:41
Um, Force Awakens has been out for how long? Two years?

Alex Ferrari 10:45
Okay, you know, what, if whoever's listening has not seen Force Awakens yet, and you're a Star Wars fan, I'm sorry, sorry. It's just,

Dan Cregan 10:51
If you're a Star Wars fan, and you haven't seen the Force Awakens, then there's something wrong

Alex Ferrari 10:54
That at that point in the game, there's something wrong. And I remember you telling me after Rogue One came out that you literally had because you are in your computer, you can at your workstation, you can bring up any sequence you want, right in the in the data in the off the hard drives. And you would literally have this debate or stuff on loop, right?

Dan Cregan 11:17
I did, and sometimes fellow artists who are working on other films that are sitting around, you don't want to be subjected to that either. They're like, Don't show me Don't talk to me, don't tell me I don't want to hear it. It's so hard to save spoiler free when you're when you're working on a film. And, you know, we have access to all the dailies one of that's one of the advantages of being at ILM is that sometimes same as when I was at wedo. Working on the Hobbit, you have access to the whole film. A lot of times when you're at the smaller VFX houses, you only have access to the part of the film you're working on. Like when I was working on Spectre, the James Bond movie, I would have loved to spoil the whole thing for myself, but we only had access to the mountain Shea scene that I worked on and, and that was better. So if I get to work on a small bit of a movie, I actually can watch the movie like a fan, right? I only know my 15 minute or 10 minutes sequence that I was privy to so that that can be that can be nice, you know? So there's definitely a price to pay for knowing, you know,

Alex Ferrari 12:12
Now, I'm going to ask you, I'm gonna ask you a simple question. You can say yea or nay. I'm just going to ask it since Rogue One had a bunch of behind the scenes, we can call it drama. There was some amazing footage shot and shown in those trailers. Do you have any insight on what was going on back there or anything like that? And you can easily just say, Alex, I can't talk about

Dan Cregan 12:36
Well, it there's nothing for me to say I was brought in. And one of the reasons I got my big ILM break I think and I'm and I am kind of partially guessing here was because of the reshoots because of the changes made to the film. The VFX deadline got pushed, they needed help to finish the movie on time to make its December release. And, you know, that's how I got in the door. It's hard to get that first job with ILM, or at least it was for me anyway. I mean, I I think it was my I want to say my sixth try.

Alex Ferrari 13:10
You know, that was that was a try that you told them that you worked with me on broken obviously. Yeah. And that's what opened the door. Got it, obviously.

Dan Cregan 13:17
You know, I had been trying to get an island for years. So, you know, this was finally the moment and it was Star Wars film and six weeks and you know, San Francisco home base. It was it was just amazing. I was like, yeah, that's incredible. So I so yeah, so I got out there and I thought well, what is it gonna be and there was no disorganization. It was it was wonderful behind the scenes I felt, you know, I felt like the media was blowing it out of proportion. Personally, to me, it really was. And maybe it's just the professionalism and the level of skill that Lucasfilm has, but all the work was was spot on it. There was no rush. And we were doing a lot of work on a short deadline, but there was no panic. It was all done very well. The director Gareth Edwards was there with us working with us, he was friendly. My VFX supervisor was john Knoll, who was amazing is like working with a rock star. He was friendly and calm and, and everything just worked like a well oiled machine. It was just so smooth. I was blown away. I I've done a lot of VFX work for a lot of films, and I've seen some pretty stressful situations. Yes. And be part of some. And Rogen was not that it was it was completely smooth. So I think the stories of the changes and you know, I got a little blown out of proportion. I think the changes that were made made the film considerably better. I don't think that there's ever going to be a cut with the extended footage that's going to somehow magically be you know, something different. I think what they went with was immensely better. I think everybody was on board and there you know, and it was just a It came out great. So I have a lot of faith in in Lucasfilm, and Kathleen Kennedy and everybody, I think they just do great work. And I trust them when they make changes to films. And what they do. A lot of people are like, Oh, it's the Disney influence, or Oh, we're trying to reach a certain audience. But I honestly think that they just want to make the best film possible. And they have the money and the resources and the time and they care enough to actually do it. So I'm a little less cynical having worked there. I'm actually I'm more of a fan of Lucasfilm and Disney in general about the way they do things then then I was before.

Alex Ferrari 15:37
I mean, I'll tell you what I mean, if Rogue One is them trying to hit a complete mass market, that's not the that's definitely not it. Because it's one of the darkest installments inside of Star Wars universe. Without question, I've yet to show it to my daughters, purely because there are some questions I'm gonna have to answer afterwards. So I'm just gonna leave that be. Even though they have the toys from Rogue One. They, they haven't shown it to him because it's pretty darn dark, actually, arguably darker than Empire, which is one of the darkest, darkest installments as well. Now, you said you worked with john Knoll, and for people for the audience. You know, the guys listening? JOHN Knoll is a legend. He's up there with Dennis Muir. And as one of the, you know, guys at ILM, who are just legends, but john Knoll specifically was if I'm not mistaken, please correct me. He was one of the original developers of Photoshop as well.

Dan Cregan 16:34
Yeah, him and his brother developed Photoshop Thomas No, which is the name you usually see when you load up Photoshop, but he was one of the original developers as well. Yeah, he co created Photoshop. That's insane. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, it was right around his time at the beginning of his ILM, tenure, you know, and and, you know, when he was working on the Abyss around that era, rather early 90s, and 8990, somewhere around there, and this was just the start of everything amazing. That's happened. You know, it seems like it all started at ILM. You know, really did I mean places like what an MPC and other places I've worked at they've, they've continued to legacy, but it all started with ILM.

Alex Ferrari 17:16
Oh, yeah. They were the they were the the Big Bang, if you will, of the visual effects industry without question. And john will was specifically your VFX. Supervisors. So you are working with john, on a daily basis. Correct?

Dan Cregan 17:29
Yes. I mean, you know, when you go into the screening room, he's he's the person giving you notes. And that's, that takes a little getting used to when you're coming in the first time, you know, I mean, I mean, some people I guess would be kind of unfazed, but if you know about the business or the history, I mean, it can be kind of a really intimidating thing. And but there is he's such a cool guy that there was there was no reason to be nervous or anything. It's just, you know, just another day at work there. You know, that's the greatest thing.

Alex Ferrari 17:57
Now. Can you talk a little bit about that process? What is the screening process? What is what it like notes, can you talk about that so the audience understands?

Dan Cregan 18:05
Yeah, you know, VFX studios tend to run the same way ILM wet uh, you know, MPC digital domain, all the places I've been, you know, they tend to have the same kind of workflow, you know, your assigned shots. You know, they have some kind of shot organizing system like a shotgun. That's a very common common one. You get assignments, you see the other people who are working on your shots and those assignments so you're working with other artists at ILM, you there's a lot of interaction with the other artists in the departments there's a lot of teamwork, there's there's a lot of communication, you're talking to the other people working on your shot, meaning CG artists or roto prep artists or, you know, dynamics, anybody you know, you're getting a lot more input from those people directly. So we're at other studios, sometimes there's a little more, it's already done by the time you get to it, do your part and send it along, you know, next person in the assembly line. So it was a lot of teamwork at ILM that I really enjoyed but it took a little getting used to. And then on a daily basis, you you do your work and almost every VFX studio, you have dailies you have daily dailies where you'll have your shot. Now when you get close to the deadline, you usually have morning dailies and afternoon dailies and then when you're really getting close to the end of the project you have like 10 o'clock at night evening dailies so you have like morning, mid afternoon and evening dailies and, and the problem with too many daily sessions usually is you get notes but then you don't have time to address those notes before the next daily session. And then your shots not in the next Daily Show session and then they're like where's the shot and the coordinators are are contacting you to try to find out where you are. But it's generally the workflow it's you're sitting at your desk you're working, you're using your your shot management system to understand where you are in the process. You're doing your work, you're listening to your headphones, you know your your shot comes up and you use it when you Did you know what i like this work I'm doing let me let me submit it in so my soups can look at it and give me some direction. You know, you, you create a stopping point, you submit your shot into dailies, you keep working. And then at some point, you're alerted, hey, dailies are going on your shots can be viewed by your supervisor Come on in, and then you go into the dailies room and, and view the shots. And that's pretty much and then you get more notes and you rinse and repeat until they say, all right, I think this is good enough for another supervisor or the director to see it, we're going to submit it to the director. And then you get those director notes where the director says awesome, and then on your way you go and you're on to the next shot. So that's, that's pretty much you know, that your job your daily life as a VFX. Artist.

Alex Ferrari 20:45
Now how many? And I know this is a long question, but how many departments on a typical shot like as your your comp, if I'm not mistaken, correct,

Dan Cregan 20:53
I am comp I am the end of the line. And the last one to do you know, a shot, I'm the one who assembles all the pieces together from the different departments to create the final shot that's in the film. The only thing that may be done after me is color grading, you know, and you know, in certain editing. For the most part, though, what you see on the screen is what left my computer, which is the cool thing, but uh given to me, you know, there's animators, there's layout, which you know, layout creates, you know, the, the tracking for a scene and the general the framework of the scene and make sure all the measurements are correct. And, you know, everything is, you know, properly blocked out. And then animation, you know, you if you have CG creatures or CG vehicles, they animation, just like an animated movie, that's where you get that. And then you have like lighting where they do all the texturing and lighting to make it look real. So what I received should already look very good. And when you're at a studio, like ILM and weda, the stuff is just beautiful. And you're almost like, wow, what am I doing here, I mean, because this already looks great. And it's my job to give it that little extra bit, that little extra icing to make it I mean, some shots are different than others. I mean, some shots need work, it's just the nature of the beast. Some shots, you know, require a lot on the composite or to make them go across the finish line. If you can fix something in comp without sending it back to other departments, that's what you do. But if you if you can, if you have the time and you have the resources, it's better to send it back to the individual departments to be done right. And then back to me to just put in the final shot and move along. You're also but what how many departments on a shot depends on what the shot involves. So if it's just, you know, background and placement with green screen, maybe you don't need animation, maybe you don't need lighting, you just get DMP digital matte painting department gives you a matte painting, and you're keying it in and compositing and boom, you're good to go. And then it's done. And then other times you have a shots with, you know, affects simulate, simulate VFX simulate simulation, like smoke and rain or tornadoes or, or things like that. Or you know, and you have animation and you have digital matte painting and you have you know, like everything you can I've had shots with, with everything you know, and those are the ones that take a while. And sometimes it's a composite or you're just waiting for those elements to get to you and they'll give you other shots to do in the meantime, but you're just waiting for those things to hit. And and you know, that's that's the process. That's that's the magic that creates these films nowadays that all have so much it's done on everything you look at

Alex Ferrari 23:36
Now, what's where's the rendering done? Are you doing the rendering on your workstation, because some of these shots will take days, depending how complex is

Dan Cregan 23:45
Well sometimes your workstation is part of the render farm a chain of computers that's doing the actual rendering. But usually you don't have it on your you don't render locally on your own station, you're sending it to the farm. And these big VFX studios have these massive farms that can do amazing amount of you know, computational, you know, processing, you know, that can really turn the shots out. But of course, there's an old adage of, you know, oh, when we can render faster, this will all go quicker, but it never does. Because the faster we can render, the more complex we make the shots and the render time stays about the same. So we only tend to be just moving the finish line we never crossed the finish line sooner we just keep moving the finish line out so it takes the same amount of time. We're just covering a greater distance you remember one SD

Alex Ferrari 24:34
Was like a pig to render. Yeah, we're just doing like standard like the stuff we did together. 12 years ago. It took forever to render now, literally, you can render that on your iPhone. But we're not doing that anymore. Now we're in 4k.

Dan Cregan 24:49
Yes. wrongly, so don't get me started on whether you need to be in 4k or not. But yes,

Alex Ferrari 24:55
Please I preach brother preach.

Dan Cregan 24:57
Yeah, I mean, for most projects, 4k is overkill. 2k is more than enough. And sometimes HD is more than enough, quite honestly. But 2k is a nice resolution, 4k is just overkill unless you have a shot that specifically demands the extra detail, like moving a far distance in a shot. I remember on the Hobbit, we had a scene where, you know, Bilbo is in this giant, cavernous dungeon in the mountain and, and this camera comes from way down the hall and out and it zooms all the way by him on his face. And you know, you need, I think we did that played in 6k, I can't remember it was crazy, but you need the detail on a shot like that. And turning that in stereo and 40 frames a second 42 frames a second or whatever, it was just unbelievable. You know, it was, you know, you got to have the best computers in the world to turn that kind of, you know, those kind of shots around, you know,

Alex Ferrari 25:52
And that's the thing. And please, I want you to I want I want you to tell the audience from your perspective as VFX artists, 4k and dealing with 4k plates, and dealing with 4k workflow, because there's so many independent filmmakers out there who come to me, they're like, Oh, I want to color graded 4k, I want to master in 4k. And I'm like, Why? Why do you want to do that? And it's like, VFX heavy. And these poor VFX artists say yeah, I'll do it if they like, they just can't get it done. Because it's just too much rendering. It's too much bandwidth to push all of that, especially if you got 1000 shots or 500 shots. It's too much if you got one shot two shots fine. And if you're Guardians of the Galaxy, you want to shoot 8k on the new read. Absolutely. Go for it. You guys have the resources to do that. But from a VFX perspective, What's your feeling?

Dan Cregan 26:41
I feel like it just adds more time and effort. You know, it just makes things slower. And it just it stresses the computer out. And depending on the you know, the resources you have to render if you have a big farm and you don't mind the renders taking hours and hours and hours, even with the farm. I guess it's all good as long as it's not slowing you down. But in in the indie world, it slows you down way too much to be useful. I mean, you'd rather be moving quicker and getting more versions of a shot, then waiting longer to see each version. It's just very wasteful. It's just not necessary. I mean, you know, quite honestly, you know, 10 ADP actually blows up wonderfully. I don't know if there is a secret, okay, because I'm not privy to everything. Okay, I did a game of thrones episode. You know, Watchers on the wall and season four. Those episodes were intended EP because they're for HBO, for your TV. And they are beautiful. Well, they had before season five happened. They did a special IMAX showing. So it's nine and 10. The one I worked on was episode nine of season four. And so I go to an IMAX theater to see my work blown up to IMAX. No, they did. It's gorgeous. And ADP blow up 10 ADP blown up to IMAX and it's perfect. It's beautiful. I mean, it's not as ultra crisp and ultra sharp as if it was shot with an IMAX camera. But I was never once super aware of the conversion. And I enjoyed it so much seeing that episode on in IMAX. And and I just it got me to thinking though, if this can be done, if you can take 1080 p footage and make it really nice and IMAX, then what are we doing? Why are we spending all this time now? I've been doing you know, you know, an electronics store. And I've seen 4k displays doing 4k footage of like skydiving and stuff and cityscapes and you see all this little tiny detail. And I think that's amazing. But I've never seen that kind of detail on a film. And I've never seen that kind of detail in normal, you know, projects, so maybe we'll get there but that's just not something that I see very much, you know. Yeah. And, you know, even when you see a 4k restoration, say Ghostbusters and you see it projected at 4k. You're like, Okay, this is great. They went back to the original film and they you know, and it's 4k. But is there that much improvement now, HD was a big jump. And but if you really look at the 2k two HD gap, it's so minor that you're like, Are we really getting our money's worth. And then when you look at the 4k jump now I've watched like Netflix shows like daredevil and Jessica Jones at 4k, and I admit I see the extra detail and I enjoy it. I really, um, and I just don't know, though, that it isn't always worth it. It depends on the project. I think that if your pipe set up for it, more power to you. But if you are not absolutely set up for it, it is not needed. And there's not many places that are set up for it really there really isn't. You know, there just really isn't.

Alex Ferrari 29:57
I mean ILM, what a MPC. Those guys They're they're set up for it, but they have an insane amount of infrastructure to be able to push that. So like if I hired you, Dan for a VFX, shot on, like 10 VFX shots on an indie film, and they're all 4k down, you'd be just like, what are you doing Alex? And then I would probably try to charge you double or triple for it. Because that's the same thing I do. When someone comes to me, they're like, Oh, we want to master in 4k, I'm like, well, it's going to cost you another 1520 grand. Sorry, it because it's going to take so much longer to process it to deal with it to render it out to master it, it just adds a level of stupidity on a film that that is not going to be projected ever and 4k, generally speaking, I know a lot of people listening. Now we've gone off a tangent here for a second. But I know a lot of people are saying, Oh, well, you know, 4k, you know, future proofing? I'm like, come on it.

Dan Cregan 30:54
I mean, you can't you can't future proof everything. I mean, we could be you know, watching holographic projection usable film someday. And you know, and, and there's conversion process, the same way we turn, you know, flat films into 2d into 3d projected films, you know, we it can be done. And there'll be ways to convert old material, there always will be. If it's worth saving, it'll be saved. And it's just, it's it's just, it's just not very, it's just not very time smart to try to push that high resolution. We've talked too fast, too. I mean, if you look at how long it took us to do the HD jump from SD, in the production world? Sure. Why are we Why are we jumping? You know, past 2k, all the way to 4k, and you know, people talking about 8k televisions coming down the pipe someday I'm like, why? We're moving too fast. For no reason whatsoever. You know, it's, it's because I think the we got to sell electronics.

Alex Ferrari 31:54
Like now that now it's now cheap, HD, Ultra HD, which is the color space changing. And I get and I see that and I see what the process is for the Ultra HD. But yeah, you're right, you just have to constantly be selling the new thing. So it's a curved television, or it's this or this that or Yeah.

Dan Cregan 32:13
Now high dynamic range. I think that's pretty cool. Because, you know, we we've been working in High Dynamic Range when you're working on Raw, you know, dp X Files or E xR files, you know, like raw film, you know, raw digital, that has high dynamic range in VFX. world, we have to do that, because we need to see detail and the brightest brights and the darkest darks. So being able to manipulate that in the VFX process is important. So the fact that that range is starting to be preserved all the way to the final product. It's exciting.

Alex Ferrari 32:44
Yeah, and that's an i in as a colorist, it's invaluable. That's why I always like editing or color grading and raw. So now that we've gone off on a tangent, Dan, as we all I think, though, I think it is very interesting, hopefully, for everyone listening, but let's get into the last Jedi. And and you work on it. I'm sorry, as much as we can, as much as we can, contractually. So how long was the post production process? I know you weren't there the entire time, obviously. But what is a typical post schedule for a film of that magnitude?

Dan Cregan 33:19
Well, that's all over the place. You couldn't really answer that. I think ideally, it's somewhere around six months. I think that would probably be a sweet spot. But certain films take more time. Certain films take less time, you know, we we knocked out x men Apocalypse, I think in roughly three months, maybe four months. I mean, most of the work, the bulk of the work is done in three or four months.

Alex Ferrari 33:42
But you have that, but they had an insane size team at that point.

Dan Cregan 33:45
Yeah, they do. You know, we had 90 compositors on our show. It was, you know, a lot of a lot of churning a lot of a lot of movement. You know, and it really just depends on what the production decides on and the longer you have to tweak, you know, the better I guess, you know, so I want to say it was a no and I'm guessing because I was on the left at AI for three months. And it was still going on when I left. I think it was three or four weeks away from wrapping up. So that's a

Alex Ferrari 34:13
Pretty long stretch for for film for you to be away on a film. But well, yeah, no.

Dan Cregan 34:19
Yeah. I mean, usually I I tend to you know, and if anybody who knows me knows I like to spend less time on the road living out of hotels, so I try to keep my contracts three months and under. So I usually come in for crunch. I usually come in at the end like I was on row one for six weeks. You know, it was kind of my trial with ILM. I think this to get to know me, and then they brought me back luckily gratefully for last Jedi and that was longer at nearly three months, one week short of it. And you know, and I got to do a lot more on last Jedi and it was it was an amazing experience and and what was different about it was working so hard. out from release. So, you know, I finished in June, and the movies coming out a week from now and it was a long time to have it in my head and never be able to talk about it. That was a new experience for me having that inside me for so long and not being able to say a peep, you know, not a word. So that was different

Alex Ferrari 35:17
Now with them. What was it like working with Ryan Johnson? Because he seems like an just a wonderful energy, if you will to work with just a very calm dude. What is it like really work with him on behind the scenes?

Dan Cregan 35:31
Well, he, you know, to be perfectly honest, he was only unlike Rogue One where Gareth Edwards was seem to be at ILM every day with us, Ryan Johnson was I think he was down in LA, I think he was in your neck of the woods. So he would he would video remote in and look at our shots every day, which we all got to see as artists. So that's when we kind of worked with them remotely. In that sense, he did come up and sit with us on a few occasions and we got to you got the in person critique, but you know what, in person, and, you know, through the video conference that we would watch the shots. Uh, he's just the nicest guy and so even tempered, and, and just seems like a really genuinely great guy. And I'm so happy he's doing a new trilogy, you know, you know, cuz he's just, he's got the perfect temperament for it. He's, he's just, he just seems like the kind of guy you want to trust, you know, and, and he's not too high, not too low. But he's excited about what he's doing. And he's excited about, you know, what he's looking at and the work that we're doing. And it's such a thrill when you're watching when you're listening to the director, look at your shots. And then they're and they like, all perfect, great or, oh, I kind of like you learn so much about a director listening to a day after day after day, you learn about what they like, what they don't like, what their little hang ups are, what what what their personal preferences are, every director is different. And you have to restyle your your, you know, what you're doing, you know, for the director, that's why it's the directors film, you know, it, they're the ones calling all the shots on, on, even on the VFX process. I don't think a lot of people know how involved the director really is. I mean, they're, they're making every little pixel decision with the VFX supervisor, you know, and, and, you know, they're the last word, they're the one telling you this will fly, this won't fly. We need more smoke here, we need more lasers here, we need a better sky here. We need, you know, again, we

Alex Ferrari 37:30
Get a Yoda here. Yeah.

Dan Cregan 37:33
And, you know, and, and Ryan had to be one of the nicest directors that I've ever just had to just have the privilege of working around. He was just just a really nice guy and just, uh, just, you know, really earnest and, and trying to do the best job and he took it so seriously, and at the same time, kept it light and you can that you cannot put a price on a good working environment, just a good, happy working environment. My two shows that I lm the people have been great. My my you know, that. It's not always like that. I've been on a lot of films where it was high stress, high pressure, arguing, fighting angry. And my both of my experiences that ILM, everybody has just been so professional and so laid back. It's like, that's the only way I want to work from now on to me, it's, it's just not worth it. If you're working these long hours, he's 12 and 14 hour days and people are, you know, yelling or or, you know, or using you, are you Yeah, I mean, if you're gonna put in these hours and sacrifice what we do, the least we can have is a fun working environment. Because at the end of the day, it should be fun, we're not curing cancer, where we're, you know, making fantasy movies, you know, I mean, we're more making, you know, dreams, and then that should be a fun process. Because I feel like if it's, it's not a fun process, it's going to taint the end product in a way, you know, and you kind of see that in a lot of productions. And, you know, there is the, the the other way of thinking though, the whiplash way of thinking a movie I particularly loved if anybody's out there, you know what I'm talking about that you got to have tension and stress and be pushed to your limits to truly make great art. And, you know, there's a small part of me that believes that too. It's just, I think it's, it's just in the maestro, you know, the, the guy holding the baton, the guy that's that's setting that tone, and bringing the best out in you. They've got to know what they're doing. I can take the abuse if it's done in the right way. And I think there's something to be said for both ways. But if I had to choose and I think anybody would choose you prefer being happy all day in your working environment, rather than being pushed to the point where you want to throw a desk.

Alex Ferrari 39:51
And I think I've pushed you on both ways, if I'm not mistaken. I've been in a very wonderful working environment and sometimes you wanted to throw a desk at me Never on my projects, though, when you and I work together, like on projects that I create, and we kind of work together on, we've rarely had any bumps of heads, but only when I bring in clients,

Dan Cregan 40:11
Clients. Yeah, it's the old clerks adage, you know, this job would be great. If it wasn't for the customers. You know, it's, it's it really is that, you know, I think everything we do, would be better if we were just calling our own shots and making our own stuff and just doing what we want. But as soon as there's a client involved, you know, you are at the service of the client, and that's always going to push you in places that you know, necessarily enjoy going. So, you know, I remember, even back when I used to do graphic design, you know, it was like, you give a client three versions of something, never give them something you don't like, because invariably, they will pick that one. Exactly. And then you're stuck working on the one you hate, you know,

Alex Ferrari 40:56
now what, can you tell me any stories or discuss anything about the last Jedi without giving away anything or them suing you? That's, that's the tricky thing, isn't it? I you know, I think just making up behind the seven funniest thing,

Dan Cregan 41:11
In general, and I don't think I'm spoiling anything or breaking any NDA is is, you know, the porg. Yeah. From the day I got to the studio, the poor were a hot topic.

Alex Ferrari 41:20
Okay, so so everybody, if so, if anyone who's not seen the trailer, you have to watch the trailer for the last shot, and there'll be this little adorable character. Screen screaming. And now there's toys at Target. And then Toys R Us because I've seen it with my daughters. And they're like, Oh, what's that? I'm like, I don't know. But it scares me. Cuz it's adorable. I think it's cute. But it could turn into a Jar Jar. It could go eat. Don't eat it after midnight. That's all exactly like it could go into the what, you know, the big, big critique of Jedi was that he walks was just to sell more toys and stuffed animals. It smells a little of that. But please tell me from your perspective.

Dan Cregan 42:04
Well, I think that's the core of the argument, I think, from the artists who are at ILM, who remember Jedi who grew up on Jedi were the ones that actually worked on Jedi that are there. I mean, it goes back to that whole was George right? That, you know, you got to have the flavor for the kids. I mean, these movies are made for all ages. It's not when one part of the audience claims ownership over something and says, I gotta have it dark and everything has to be like Empire. And I want everything angry. You know, I think

Alex Ferrari 42:33
You mean like DC sorry.

Dan Cregan 42:35
Yeah. I mean, you're you're being that that militant fanboy that that just wants it the way they want it. Nothing else is good enough. And I think you're missing the casual audience and a whole subsection of Pete, we don't tend to think about what kids would enjoy. And you got to do that when you're making movies. They deserve part of the film as well. Star Wars is not supposed to be seven. It's not supposed to be this dark and depressing world that doesn't have any hope. I mean, when you were, you know, watching, you know, Batman versus Superman, one of the biggest things is man, this is joyless. It's so, you know, and I agree. And that's, you know, and that's Oh, and some people like it, though, some people are like, yeah, that's setting us them apart from Marvel, and it's, it's, it's darker. And I think Star Wars always will have a fun kid part to it. And we, as fans have to come to grips with that. And, and I think the Borg are fine. But of course, when I was in the studio, you know, that some of the artists are like, I hate these little rats with wings. And you know, and other artists are like, they're adorable. I love them. I want stuff poured all over my desk. So, you know, they're diverse and they were diverse, from you know, the it's a site of divisive subject from the get go when I got there. And when I saw them, I'm like, what's going on with these things, you know, and now they're out in the world and, and already the conversations begin, people are like, oh, they're awesome, you know, when it's, it's yelling just like Chewbacca in the trailer, you know. Now there's another little TV spot out right now where Chewbacca is like brushing the pork off the console and knocking it down. And there's people going off Finally, Chewbacca is throwing the porn to the ground, you know?

Alex Ferrari 44:15
But that's genius. Because it's creating conversation. It's creating even the small amount of controversy within the fan base. It is getting people talking not that you need a whole lot of people more talking about. But it is it is a good way to kind of get them going. Get them revved up.

Dan Cregan 44:33
Yeah, it definitely was the thing. It was the thing we talked about most I think, you know, the poor guy, and it was the kind of inside joke and I think Ryan, you know, I think he knew that. You know, I think everybody was

Alex Ferrari 44:45
He granted right? He created Yeah,

Dan Cregan 44:47
I mean, I think they were they saw these from what I've read because I don't I don't know sometimes I'm just like you guys, I have to read this stuff. From fansites. I believe they saw some birds that were on that island were you know that they were on At the end of Force Awakens, and it gave them this idea, we should have the Star Wars equivalent of this bird in the movie, you know, and, and, you know, it's just a little flourish, it's not crucial to the film, it's just something that's it's gonna annoy some people and there's some people that are gonna like to flourish, but it's, I don't think in the end it will ruin your appreciation to port spoiler the poor don't rise up and overtake the first one.

Alex Ferrari 45:28
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. Though I don't it's not like the wax is not

Dan Cregan 45:41
Gonna be the wax part to it really can't be because that's where he walks went wrong is that the walks were, you know, taken out stormtroopers and people can't deal with that. But this is a conversation. The poor, the poor are not I don't think quite suited to do that. So I don't think we're ever going to get to that point.

Alex Ferrari 46:01
And we know that and one of the cast members came out publicly says I hate them. Yeah, john boyega. Just like, I hate them. I hate them. I don't know what they're talking about. I don't know what they're doing. It's horrible.

Dan Cregan 46:16
The good thing is it's it's not a major part of the film. So they shouldn't you know, ruin or enhance it, you know, any part of the film either. They're just kind of there. And I think they can only enhance I don't think they can ruin I should say, I think they can only be there if you like him. But if you don't like him, I don't think they're going to really get in your way of enjoying this installment of the Star Wars saga. And you know, and

Alex Ferrari 46:38
Did you did you work on any shots with him?

Dan Cregan 46:42
With poor gut No, never had important shots. You know, I was I was not gifted with those shots. But I can say that I did have shots with the crystal foxes which which you've seen in the trailer as well? Yes.

Alex Ferrari 46:56
Those were those were I thought really cool. I can't even imagine what they just look insanely cool.

Dan Cregan 47:01
Yeah, they are amazing. And working on those was a lot of fun.

Alex Ferrari 47:05
And you say and you also had a Luke shot. If I'm not mistaken.

Dan Cregan 47:09
I did get to work on shots that contain Luke Skywalker. But no, that's all I can say about that's all

Alex Ferrari 47:15
I can say. That's all I can say. That's all we're gonna say. That's there's no ILM. There's no reason Lucasfilm no reason to to sue Dan. He said anything that's not been laid out in the trailers. We all know it's on the poster Lucas in the movie. That's all we know.

Dan Cregan 47:29
And when you when you sign NDA is, that's pretty much your guideline, you look at what they release in the world. And you know, you can talk about something that's on a poster or in the trailer, or, you know, as long as you're not saying anything about it, that shouldn't be public knowledge. But you know, to the young VFX artists out there, I would say the better thing to do is just not say anything, don't do what I'm doing right now, don't even dance around the edge.

Alex Ferrari 47:53
Don't go on a podcast,

Dan Cregan 47:55
Don't go on Alex's podcast and talk about what you do behind the scenes. Because I guess if I, right now, if I burn my bridges, and nobody wants to hire me ever again, I can at least take solace in the fact that I made it to ILM, and I got to work on Star Wars. And you know,

Alex Ferrari 48:10
I think you're safe. But yes, don't do this. Do not do what you're doing here. But don't think you've done anything wrong? Or very cool. Yes, of course, of course. But yeah, but you've got some history with this as well. So for young VFX artist, Dan has been around a little bit. So that Yeah. And he's also he knows I'm not gonna give him any gotcha questions.

Dan Cregan 48:32
Oh, and I am back when I was at digital domain, you couldn't speak with any form of media, without going to the public relations department, you know, because I was a full time staff member of digital domain. So, you know, there was no publicly talking about anything regarding the studio, they kept a tight grip on it, you know, and I, and mostly, I don't think the studios are too worried about it, generally, digital domain was, but since then, I've noticed the studios know that if you were to break your NDA, you're just costing yourself your career. So people are pretty good about not talking about what they work on, you know, and, and it's, it's, it's really easy not to talk when you know, you won't get another job if you talk about it. So I exactly, it's not a hard rule to really maintain. Because the tricky part is, here's the hardest part, if you have a family or if you have a home, and they start asking you and you're so that's so loadable here with everybody in your family and you can't even do that. Because you know, because you don't know where they're going to spread it,

Alex Ferrari 49:32
You know that it'll get back to you. Exactly. That's that I've never even asked nor would I want to because you'd be ruin the fun. So I yeah, you just don't ask things like that. of the insiders is.

Dan Cregan 49:45
No, I mean, it's a little bit of a burden to carry, but I'm not going to complain because there are far worse jobs to have. I mean it it does make you a little nervous sometimes and most of the time when you get a new VFX job. On day one, you're sitting there watching a video that tells you that About not saying anything you know about anything that you're talking or doing about, you know, just the best practices just shut up and pretend you don't even exist.

Alex Ferrari 50:09
Just you know, best practices is just be cool.

Dan Cregan 50:12
I tell you for me, though, it's it's hilarious to go to film websites and watch the rumors spread and see things. And you know what's real and what isn't, and just laugh at people and just kind of say, Oh, you're so far off? Or Oh, hey, you got it. But I'll never tell you You got it. Or, you know, it's weird to see, to know that. And to watch people speculate, it's fun. It's a lot of fun. You know, that's, that's why I wanted to do this right. So that I, so that I could be a part of this process and show from the other side. And, or, as Kevin Smith would say, know how the sausage is made. That's what he you know, I know how the sausage made.

Alex Ferrari 50:48
Yes, exactly. So now, Dan, when you went down, because I have no, I basically was at the beginning of your VFX career. And, you know, you always told me that there was kind of like four movies, three, specifically, but then a fourth one came up as that that genre popped up was, you wanted to make a Star Wars movie, you wanted to make a James Bond movie, wanted to make an x men movie. And then eventually, like, I wouldn't mind making a Marvel movie. And you've done all of that. And even when you did Rogue One, you were like, but it's not an original trilogy. It's just Oh, and I'm like, shut up, dad. But I really want to do one of these. I want to do one with Luke Skywalker, and then boom, you get last Jedi. So I have to ask you, Brother, what? What's next, as you just Are you done? Are you just gonna check out? Oh, well, you're one of the few artists that I must know. You're one of the few people in the business that I know that has achieved their goals. In many ways. I've actually I've checked the boxes on the checklist. Yeah, there's bucket lists that you checked off,

Dan Cregan 51:57
It was strange, you know, I kind of had the ability to do it. Because of my own situation. So not every VFX artists can hop studios the way I do and live in South Florida and can afford themselves the ability to wait for the right contract to come up to work on the right film, that the freedom in this business is having the ability to pick and choose which project you work on. And really, step one is build your resume to a certain point where you're desirable. And then once you've done that, then have enough money and no overhead to be able to sit and wait for your desired project to need somebody of your skill. And then once that happens, you jump on it. And even then you don't always aren't guaranteed of getting it but you can at least put yourself in a position to be where you want to be, you know. So, you know, used to tell me, you know, if I want to get hit by a car, I had to go play in traffic. So I was able to do was I was able to pick and choose my spots of when I jumped into traffic. So no guarantee the car was going to hit me. But I just jumped into traffic at the right time. And so it was just being at a company that said, Oh, we got the new Bond film. And I'm and I said, you know, I've always wanted to work on those. Could I get on that project, please? And they all right, Dan? Sure. We'll put you on that project. And it's just a way in. So that's ended up how it happened to where that I got to do those things. And, you know, as far as what's next, man? I didn't think I would make it this far. So I don't know. I've been kind of struggling with it a little and it's a good problem to have. Don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining

Alex Ferrari 53:40
Handcuffs, golden handcuffs. Yes.

Dan Cregan 53:42
But it is a little bit like well, what stimulates me now? What because now I'm on the next level tier of difficulty. Now it's like, well, I'd like to work on a Nolan film. I'd like to work on a Fincher film, I'd like to work on a Cameron film. Well, then it's like, even more difficult because it's not always common knowledge, who's working on what where, I mean, you pretty much know where Star Wars is gonna be worked on, you pretty much know where bond is gonna be working. You know, it's hard, but you're looking for

Alex Ferrari 54:07
Filmmaker Eve, right? But if you're going to be if you want to go on avatar, brother, there's like four of them. Call me Yeah, there's a real good chance you're gonna get on an avatar, if there's a if, you know, you've got at least another 10 years.

Dan Cregan 54:21
It is true. That's me wrong. But it's, it's, it's still a little bit more difficult. But you know, overall, there's a piece with having done the things that I really wanted to check off. And now it's more now I'm my my cares kind of shift to a different mode. You know, how much money am I earning? How long am I going to be on the road? You know, now I'm, I used to be like, oh, I'll do anything three months and under. Now I'm changing my tune. Now. I'm like, boy, you know, eight weeks feels a lot better than than three months, you know, on the road. So and those chances don't come up. But I can honestly tell you what My new priorities are Chenault Sure. My Doherty is Stranger Things, obviously to do Stranger Things and when they perform, or Westworld, or because like, I've been talking a lot about how TV has become such a fertile, amazing ground where the best work is being done for Netflix and for television for HBO. I mean, I did Game of Thrones. So I was very happy about that, that was definitely would have been on my list if I hadn't already done it.

Alex Ferrari 55:28
So that it will always just change.

Dan Cregan 55:30
Yeah, they probably saw whatever I'm passionate about at the moment. And I think, you know, and I can tell this story now. You know, I was home from last Jedi, I was really worn out last night, I took a lot out of me, and I was tired. And I was ready to spend a long time at home. And atomic fiction was looking for people. For a 911 project, we need compositors, five weeks wouldn't have been. And I'm like, Boy, that's right up my alley. That's what I like to like to do five weeks on something. And I just couldn't even bring myself to apply because I was tired. And I was ready to stay home. And I ended up talking to atomic fiction about a month ago in an interview for another job. And they said, Oh, you should contact us for that. And I'm like, Yeah, what was that job? Oh, that was Stranger Things, too. Oh. I was just I was just like, I was like, I should have just got on the road. I should have just should have just sent the email in I should have, you know. So my career is littered with the could have bins.

Alex Ferrari 56:31
I think everybody's got too many sir. Not too many outs.

Dan Cregan 56:35
I mean, just like, when I was a digital domain, my team had an opportunity to be a part of Dragon Tattoo. And that was Fincher movie. And that would have checked a box for me. And it just in the end, my team didn't get to work on the film. So I was so close to it right next to it, but I didn't get to do it. And, you know, like I said, I had friends that got to do Force Awakens, and I didn't and, you know, just decisions where if I turn left or turn, right, I could have gotten to do something I didn't get a chance to do. So I have these little regrets. I can't do anything about them. And I think that's kind of normal. And I can't complain, because I've gotten to do so much every time I talk about what I didn't get to do. People are like, Oh, shut up.

Alex Ferrari 57:15
Yeah, pretty much just what I'm saying, Dan shut, you know, shut up.

Dan Cregan 57:20
So, you know, it's a personal thing. And it's just like, it's like, when I when I do these jobs, I just want to be excited. You know, and, and before Rogue One, I was starting to not be excited anymore. I mean, I was doing Pirates of Caribbean before Rogue One. And it's not that it was bad. It was fun. It was good. And before that it was x men. I was I was happy, but it was a job. And I was start I've done so many films, and it was just starting to feel like a job. But man when I walked into ILM, San Francisco in the Mecca, as you call it, and they sat me down into computer and said make laser blasts with stormtroopers. And I'm like, I was a little kid again and my my stomach was churning with butterflies. And

Alex Ferrari 58:03
I remember I remember you telling me you're like, I don't know dude. I'm like, I'm a pro.

Dan Cregan 58:11
I've been doing this for years I've worked on billion dollar films, you know, like I have been nervous but a man that ILM brought it out of me it was like being a beginner all over again. And it was an exhilarating it was making me so excited to come into work and to sit down and and you know, like like, I'm like, this is incredible. I'm I'm sitting down today and I'm working on spaceships and I'm working on you know, this movie that has Darth Vader in it. I mean, what what am I what world

Alex Ferrari 58:43
Am I in right now?

Dan Cregan 58:45
Am I in a felt like a dream and that's a cliche too and I you know, I say that a lot but it was that hazy unreality kind of feeling you know

Alex Ferrari 58:55
Looked at I get it completely and and for everyone listening I was with Dan pretty much since the beginning. I was this first I'm assuming I was the first big show you did. Yeah. With my short broken and and then we've just continued to do work for years and Dan and I did a lot of work together doing independent films for years before you got a shot at did six or seven years yeah, six or seven years paying you're working doing projects it's a long time before you got the call up at digital domain and that honestly happened purely because they had a Florida outpost Yes. Because you weren't have been called to LA digital domain it just probably wouldn't have ever happened. So you right place right time and you would prepare yourself to a certain point. And then once you were invited once you started once you dated one pretty girl. All the pretty girls said okay, he must be all right if he dated one pretty girl. And it's so true you like he nobody wants to be the first of the party. And once they once you had digital domain on your end You weren't doing like crazy, amazing stuff at digital domain you were you were running this roto right? Yeah, well, no, it was three stereo, stereo version roto all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, it was, yeah, you weren't doing sexy stuff.

Dan Cregan 1:00:14
Not at all. But I felt but I had those butterflies when I was a digital domain to because it was my first big job should I'm looking at posters of, of, you know, all the digital domain movies. Just Yeah. And just the idea Oh, this is the company that Cameron helped co found and and, you know, bits elements and fight club and the first x men and all these movies, they have been a part of Sure. So, you know, I felt all that history even though we were new studio in Florida. Man, it felt crazy to be a part of that after no offense after working with you for seven years, six, seven years. Screw you, sir.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:50
Screw you, sir. You nothing, nothing without waiting. I'm joking.

Dan Cregan 1:00:55
Different you know, it's you just can't replace. When you get when you're in the pros, you know it when you look around you, you know you're in the pros, there's no, there's no ifs, ands or buts about it all of a sudden, you know, this is for real. And you're working, you know, at the top, and it was like, and then the fear creeps in. And then you're like, I just want to stay here. I just want to make sure they know I'm worthy to be here. And

Alex Ferrari 1:01:19
Yeah, like at any moment, they're gonna walk in and go, who are you? What are you doing here? Security?

Dan Cregan 1:01:23
Yeah. And I felt like that every day at ILM, even on last Jedi my second trip to ILM. I felt like man, they're gonna they're just gonna say, What are you doing here? You know, we're

Alex Ferrari 1:01:33
Gonna figure it out that you really they're

Dan Cregan 1:01:35
Gonna figure it out, you know, I'm a pretender. I didn't, you know, you know, and that's just partly the way I'm wired. You know, I'm always, you know, hardest on myself, but I just, that's how surreal the whole process was. And, you know, and I, and I'm always hyper critical of my performance. So it was, it was good, though, to get back to a place where I was fighting, to just maintain, you know, a certain level, because you can be very complacent. When you're working on things that are below your skill level, you can become very, you can take for granted, the things you know, and the things you can do. And this industry with the technology, and the changing techniques changes so rapidly and quickly that all of a sudden, you can be yesterday's news, you know, like, like the optical compositors, who didn't want to learn how to use the computer, you know, and that they were retired from the film industry, because it all went to the computer. So, you know, it's a hard business to be in as far as staying on the cutting edge, you have to do it. I mean, thank you preach that in your podcasts about learning the new techniques and learning what's available to you, and all the things you can do. indie filmmakers today have so much power than they had before,

Alex Ferrari 1:02:45
You know, and the thing is, also you got to challenge yourself and be around people who challenge you. And that's how I felt the way you felt when you went to digital domain is how I felt when I went to LA. Yeah, was like, all of a sudden, you're like, oh, oh, this is Oh, this is the game, okay. And you got to challenge yourself. And you always want to be around people who are better than you. And that you can learn from and you can grow with because if you're the guy at the top of your group, or the top of your, you know, area, you're the big fish in that small pond, you're never gonna grow, you've got

Dan Cregan 1:03:21
No, you reach your maximum size, when you're the big fish you you don't ever get to you Don't you know, and that's okay. If you want to be the big fish in a small pond. That's nothing inherently wrong with that.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:32
Yeah, but there's always this, there's always a shark that's learning more somewhere else, and shows up, it'll eat you alive.

Dan Cregan 1:03:39
That's gonna happen to you sooner or later in life anyway, I think that's just like, you know, you're gonna get, you're gonna get knocked off the top of the mountain at some point. You know, I think the important thing is to be there and to work to get there and always try to be improving, and to stay there as long as you possibly can. If they if that's what you want to do. If you wake up in the morning, you got the passion, then you keep going. If you if you wake up in the morning, and you're like, I don't want to do this life is too short. Don't do it anymore. Do something else. You know. Now,

Alex Ferrari 1:04:07
What advice would you give a VFX artist just starting out and trying to break into the business today?

Dan Cregan 1:04:14
Wait today is it's such it's such a different game. Nowadays. You know, I think we talked a little bit about this last time, I'm still a big proponent of school just because it starts with your network. It starts you with those people you need to know. But I'd say be careful what you're getting into like like I think even before you think about oh schooling and then I'm going to go try to get into say the MPC Academy and try to become a rotoscoping painter and get into the business. I think you have to look long and hard about what you want to do because the industry today is is it's being done on foreign soil. I mean that there's that's there's no ifs ands or buts about that either. it's it's it's being done in Canada. It's being done in New Zealand. It's being done in Australia. It's being done here. And these, this is where the majority China, and you know, right and India, these are the places the work is being done the most of it. And the you know, the dream of living in Southern California your whole career and working in the movie industry is is not there for VFX artists anymore, not the way that's the, the the game is presently set up, you know, I would caution, anybody who doesn't want to move, or anybody who doesn't who's afraid to travel to jump into the game today. And I would caution anybody who you know, is not down for, you know, the way it works, the living in hotels, the being the the instability of it all the fact that today, it's Vancouver, tomorrow, it could be Montreal is the head place. And then after that, it could be anywhere that decides they're gonna throw a lot of money at the movie industry to make movies where they're making them. You know, where they want him to make him. So you know, you have to be down. You got a goalie, I say this all the time. You just got to love it. You just got to movies have got to be it for you. It's got to be what what, you know, what makes you get out of bed in the morning to do this? You know, I think a lot of people today, I still think there's young film fans and young movie passionate people. But I think video games are another thing that that kids today are feeling really passionate about. And there's a lot of the same challenges in the video game business. Although, you know, there's a lot of studios in the United States for that still. But the instability is the same. And the hours are the same. And the deadlines are the same. Even more brutal if from what I hear. Yeah, I mean, I mean, Alex, once you reach a certain amount of hours when you're at 120 hour weeks, I mean, is there really a difference in the brutality there is Shay sir, to shave, there is a point in the brutality and I and I realized this when I was on Hobbit, where you just become a zombie ghosts numb to the whole thing. So I think there's a threshold point where you just become dead on your feet doing the job. And, you know, and then it's just your body deteriorating, from then on until you drop dead pretty much.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:07
Wow, that's if that's not an advertisement to jump into the business. I don't know what

Dan Cregan 1:07:11
No, but maybe that's but that's why the show has got to end I think, longer production cycles are even more dangerous, at least on a movie, you know, you got that end finish line, and you're only grinding like that for the last few months usually. But, you know, video games cycles, I've heard of going on for a year for two years, you know, and those bad hours going on for that long. I mean, there has been some famous cases in the in the past, like the a widow, if you look up that story on the internet, about a wife whose whose husband worked at EA, and you know, never saw, you know, and the family suffered and everything suffers. So, you know, anybody who wants, you know, wife and kids in the house in the white picket fence VFX might not be what you're looking for. It's a young person's game, though. You know, 20 year olds might love the idea of world travel, working on gigantic franchise films and, and oh, and long hours and excitement, you know, and I think they're, you can do that when you're 2025 I think you get older. Some of that loses its appeal. I mean, even if you do it, you can only do it for like, five, five years, maybe you know, and then and then you're kind of done. And then it's like what is the VFX artist transition out of? What do you do after you know DirectX? Obviously, Ah, man, I had a dime for every VFX artists that wanted to be a filmmaker. I mean, they call us we're all filmmakers in the sense that we're all contributing to makes sure you know, or so we're all filmmakers. But I think that some of some of us grew up wanting to know how to make the monster know how to make the laser know how to make the spaceship but I would say a greater portion of us just grew up loving films and wanting to be a part of it and and a natural progression for that is saying you know, I want to be a director I want to make films I want to produce whatever that's all of Hollywood I mean, you know you don't know anything about in that in LA right every waitress every barista every every

Alex Ferrari 1:09:08
There's nothing like that here. There's not there's not a laptop in every Starbucks that has a final draft open working on

Dan Cregan 1:09:14
Yeah, there's no grips flying around everywhere you go. You know you buy a car in LA I'm sure the salesman is trying to sell you a script to go with the

Alex Ferrari 1:09:20
Yeah, favorite. My favorite thing to do now is to go into when I get into an Uber and go so how's the screenplay coming? And I've had a couple of them turn around. How do you know? If I look at him, I go, how's the audition? How'd you know? Yeah, that's God. That is so yeah, that's so LA. But it's so true.

Dan Cregan 1:09:44
So I understand it. I do understand everybody's got these dreams. I mean, I'm not here to sit down that at all. I mean, you know more power. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:09:52
Absolutely. You got you got a dream. You got to work at it, but don't. But do it smart. Don't do it foolishly you know and be and understand what you're getting into. Before you get into it and waste 10 years of your life.

Dan Cregan 1:10:03
Yeah, and you're gonna need some luck. I mean, let's be honest. It's it's not all about skill and talent. You literally need to just get hit by a car. You need that luck you need you got

Alex Ferrari 1:10:13
A digital domain a Port St. Lucie was that luck for you?

Dan Cregan 1:10:16
Exactly. You know, that was my random car that hit me out of nowhere. You know, you

Alex Ferrari 1:10:21
You were ready. When that hit you.

Dan Cregan 1:10:22
I was prepared. I was bracing myself, I was ready for it to happen.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:26
Now, last question, sir. I need you to rank your top three Star Wars films of all time, not including last Jedi, because that's against the rules. But every other movie top

Dan Cregan 1:10:38
Ranking Star Wars movies top three out of the ones that exist

Alex Ferrari 1:10:41
Out of all the ones that exist in the canon.

Dan Cregan 1:10:45
Well, Empire is an easy. Number one, okay. You know, Star Wars is probably number two, the original A New Hope. And that's where it gets dicey. I love parsa Jedi. It's hard. You know, we're of a certain age where we love the originals. You know,

Alex Ferrari 1:11:02
There's now Rogue One and force awakens in that in that mix as well. We're just going to exclude the prequels that they don't make the top three

Dan Cregan 1:11:10
I still I you know, they don't but I have a lot to like about the Pico Pico. And we could probably do a whole show about what's redeeming about the prequels

Alex Ferrari 1:11:18
There are many things redeeming about the prequels there's Yoda fighting in Attack of the Clones first time we saw that that was genius. They actually sequence At the end of regiment Revenge of the Sith awesome. That the pod race Great. Good stuff awesome.

Dan Cregan 1:11:37
I would argue that the overall story if you look at it separate from dialogue separate from you know the actual scenes

Alex Ferrari 1:11:44
From acting lighting composition is brilliant.

Dan Cregan 1:11:49
I would I would I would go to my grave defending George Lucas on the ark. Yes, one through six. Yes. You know, yes, I think it the whole thing is a masterwork as a concept. I just think that you know, things happened in the actual producing of it that didn't turn out quite as great as we would have liked. But that's easy for us to say it wasn't our thing. I mean, we made it our thing we adopted it

Alex Ferrari 1:12:15
It's just that you know,

Dan Cregan 1:12:16
I you know, and finish your question. I got to go with Jedi for three just because I'm I'm old and I and I liked the original trilogy and they'll never replace that part of my heart. They will never be moved I do not think

Alex Ferrari 1:12:27
See I would agree with you. I would agree with you on the one of the two but I wouldn't go rogue one. You really moved into the three spot I would move that I would definitely move that in the threes. Because as a as an ascent on a cinematic standpoint, now we're Geeking guys sorry. But on a cinematic standpoint, I think Rogue One is a much stronger narrative as much stronger film. It also doesn't have the weight of having to be the third part of a movie, or a trilogy so there's that going for but as a standalone I think it was great. I think I know I might get heat for this. I think Force Awakens is better than Jedi. And in many ways there are moments of Jenna but I loved Force Awakens I love what JJ Abrams did with force awakens so that's why I'm so excited about last Jedi but Rogue One is definitely should have some respect up there in the it's close

Dan Cregan 1:13:16
I think it's very very with me it's super super close to Jedi it's it's neck and neck right there at the bottom I almost included in the original trilogy at this point because of the way it was it's so connected it's so hand in hand and that Vader scene belongs as a part of the core of Star Wars alone You know what I mean? I you know my defensive Jetta is this I mean for me it's three you know three quarters of a perfect movie the you know I love the opening sequence at javis Palace that whole thing to me is perfection and it's something we may never see again. Because it's kind of risky you know it's I mean slave Leia doesn't fly in today's PC World

Alex Ferrari 1:14:02
You know imagine slave Leia today.

Dan Cregan 1:14:04
She she did end up killing Java. That's the good point. I mean, that she's those great strong female character

Alex Ferrari 1:14:10
Can you imagine slave rey

Dan Cregan 1:14:12
Like yeah, we they would get killed in the politically correct world today, which maybe is progress. And I'm not here to say this is wrong or not sure. I'm just saying that you probably couldn't do the beginning of Jedi today. And I and I have so much respect for the weirdness of the beginning of Jedi it is brilliantly weird, and an unusual and different in the third part of a trilogy and then they brought some they went back to the same planet but at the same time they brought something completely new and then I would say toward the end the space battles impressive but we've been there before so it's a bit of a rehash the walks less said the better they have their audience it's not me. The whole father son. Oh,

Alex Ferrari 1:14:53
It's a thought.

Dan Cregan 1:14:54
With John Williams On sing music. Yes. Are you scared me to Death when I was a kid Yes, that whole thing is perfection To me it is it is really is and that's what elevates so the so the beginning part and then the the part at the end with with with Luke and Vader that's what make it rise so high for me there's still so much top quality work that in an originality level that's just not being done a lot today anymore. I mean that's that's a whole separate podcast in and of itself right now much. we're lacking this epic, original storytelling and Yes, I understand that hero's journey and Kurosawa and he'd stole from the best and all that, but everyone does. Yeah, it's it's still felt so original. I mean, what's what's around today? That's an original work that has that level of fandom. Maybe Harry Potter, you know, that's, that's got that's got

Alex Ferrari 1:15:52
From when it started. Absolutely.

Dan Cregan 1:15:53
Yeah, you know, so it's just not being done a lot. It's a rare thing. And that's why it ended up being such a career goal for me is to be a part of that universe. I mean, it just, even in the very miniscule tiny way, my name in the credits at the very end, where nobody's ever gonna see him, but me and my family. I mean, it's still there. And it still means something to me. And it's, you know, you know, something

Alex Ferrari 1:16:18
I Dan, I think that and I said this the last time we did this in our first interview, I still feel that you and I need to do a podcast of just film geek stuff. So everyone in the audience if you guys want to hear podcast with me and Dan, a series, a limited series on me and Dan just talking movies, email [email protected]. Let us know, Dan, brother, it is always a pleasure talking to you. Every time we talk, we talk for hours, but I'm going to cut it off today because people have things to do. But thank you again for the inside. Look at your life, your career, your journey, and shining a little light on the VFX world and specifically Star Wars. So thank you, brother

Dan Cregan 1:17:03
Always great to be on the podcast Alex. Thanks for having me.

Alex Ferrari 1:17:06
I hope you enjoyed that inside look to Industrial Light and Magic in the behind the scenes of Star Wars The Last Jedi as well as Rogue One and what it's like to work in a facility like ILM, which is you know, at the at the end of the day probably at the top of the the echelon of visual effects companies they were the first guys to do it and and I'm so glad and I'm proud and happy for Dan for being able to achieve a goal that he's been chasing for over 20 years. So it you know, you guys got to work hard and you will get there but it does take a lot of time. A lot of preparation and a whole lot of luck as well. I already got my ticket bought for last Jedi for Friday, I cannot wait to go see the next installment of the saga. If you want to listen to the first podcast I did with Dan which was like basically a VFX masterclass, which is episode six just go over to indiefilmhustle.com/006. Or go to our show notes at indiefilmhustle.com/207 and a half that and anything else we talked about in the show notes. Oh, and by the way, if you guys have not checked out the YouTube channel, don't forget to head over to indiefilmhustle.com/YouTube on Tuesday, we will be releasing the first episode of PT Anderson's part of the director series that we're going to go throughout his entire career breaking everything down, up until the Fadiman thread which has obviously not been released yet, but as soon as that gets done, we'll we'll update the series but every other movie goes into insane detail. And you definitely check that out. So head on over to the YouTube channel. And as always, keep that also going keep the dream alive and I'll talk to you soon.

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FREE Screenwriting Master Classes: Top Ten List

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Screenwriting Master Classes: Top Ten List

What you are about to listen to is probably the equivalent of taking at least five years of screenwriting courses or classes at a top tier film school.

BAFTA (The British Academy of Film and Television Arts) has an amazing collection of FREE screenwriting lectures from some of the biggest and most successful screenwriters in the world.

There’s easily between 15-20 hours of remarkable content here. Take a listen and get ready to take notes from these masters of the craft of screenwriting and storytelling.

When you are done reading take a listen to Apple #1 Screenwriting Podcast The Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, with guest like Oscar Winner Eric Roth, James V. Hart, David Chase, John August, Oliver Stone and more.

Also, keep a look out for the bonus content at the end of the post!

Joss Whedon – Screenwriting Master Class

Joss Whedon’s work ranges across both film and television was strongly conveyed as he discussed the success of Buffy the Vampire Slayer (1997-2003) and Toy Story (1995) through to his recent cinematic interpretation of Much Ado About Nothing (2012).

Having debated the thematic elements of Buffy and Angel (1999-2004), the interview moved towards The Cabin in the Woods (2011) and The Avengers (2012). Whedon’s emotive intentions in his writing remains steadfast, advocating how “the end game is getting people to feel, and if you can get them to think? Bonus”.

It was clear how much his “absurd love of story-telling” motivates him. Whether writing for the big or small screen, Whedon’s passion for “build[ing] narrative structures” and always working to give his audience something unexpected permeated the interview and has warranted high expectations for his projects, including The Avengers 2 (2015).

With an array of unforgettable characters, emotionally heartfelt and witty scripts, and more end-of-the-world apocalypses than you can shake a vampire stake at, writer and director Joss Whedon has established himself as one of the most original voices working in the film and television industries over the past 20 years.

Charlie Kaufman – Screenwriting Master Class

Kaufman – one of the few contemporary screenwriters whose name commands top-billing status alongside his films’ directors – has quickly established himself as an uncompromisingly original and imaginative talent.

1999’s Being John Malkovich, in which the eponymous actor plays a fictional version of himself, earned Kaufman a BAFTA Film Award for Best Screenplay – an award he picked up again for Adaptation (2002) and Eternal Sunshine Of The Spotless Mind (2004).

Failure is a badge of honour. It means you risked failure.

Nancy Meyers – Screenwriting Master Class

Screenwriter and director Nancy Meyers is an Academy Award nominee for her script Private Benjamin (1980) and Golden Globe nominated for her screenplay It’s Complicated (2009).

Across a career spanning 35 years her credits include Father of The Bride (1991), The Parent Trap (1998), Something’s Gotta Give (2003), The Holiday (2006) and The Intern (2015), starring Robert DeNiro and Anne Hathaway.

In an inspiring lecture laden with advice for up-and-coming writers, Nancy Meyers discussed creating characters, producing and directing her own work and her concerns for the film landscape in Hollywood.

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Brian Helgeland – Screenwriting Master Class

Brian Helgeland stands out as one of Hollywood’s master screenwriters of intelligent crime film.

After cutting his teeth in horror (Nightmare on Elm Street 4 was an early credit), he quickly jumped to A-list status with an Oscar® win for the pitch perfect noir thriller LA Confidential and Oscar® and BAFTA nominations for Mystic River.

As a writer, Helgeland is highly prized for smart, muscular thrillers like Green Zone directed by Paul Greengrass, and The Taking of Pelham 1 2 3 and Man on Fire, both directed by the late Tony Scott, as well as Payback which he wrote and directed himself.

On writing crime film, he says:

“It strips people down to their basic elements. It gets to the hunting-gathering heart of the matter. I don’t want to write about the ennui rich people feel. I could care less. I want to write about what’s in people’s heads, hearts and between their legs when they either are in prison, might go to prison, have a gun in their face or are pointing one”.

In this lecture, Helgeland urged screenwriters to ‘fight’ to assert themselves in front of studio executives, argued that films should be ‘commercial’ (that is, profitable on some level) and paid tribute to Cool Hand Luke screenwriter Frank Pierson.

Scott Frank – Screenwriting Master Class

Scott Frank, a remarkably diverse writer whose films have grossed over a billion dollars at the box office. During writing the screenplay for Kenneth Branagh’s 1991 thriller Dead Again that he says he really learned his craft.

Frank cemented his growing reputation with a brace of Elmore Leonard adaptations – Get Shorty and Out of Sight – and has since gone on to pen films as diverse as Minority Report, The Lookout (which Frank also directed) and Marley & Me.

Frank began his candid, funny and informative lecture by explaining that when writing he finds it useful to follow a set of rules that he has laid out for himself.

He confessed that they are a set of rules that may only work for him, whilst also noting that

“rules are something to cling to when ideas fail.”

His first and possibly most important rule was

“why you decide to write something doesn’t matter, but how you do it is important.”

Frank revealed that he was initially motivated to write Out of Sight because he wanted a bigger house but that it ultimately turned out to be

“the single most enjoyable job of my career, and is perhaps the work that I’m the most proud of.”

He explained,

“It’s okay to write something just for the money, and it’s also okay to write something just because you want to.”

John Logan – Screenwriting Master Class

The man behind Russell Crowe’s brilliant line “At my signal, unleash hell” in Oscar® Winning film Gladiator, John Logan is widely regarded as one of Hollywood’s most prolific writers.

John Logan has collaborated with some of the most visionary directors of our time: Tim Burton, Martin Scorsese, Ridley Scott, Steven Spielberg.

He is notable for the diversity of his projects: in 2011 alone his writing is at the heart of the Academy Award® Winning animated comedy Rango, Ralph Fiennes’ directorial debut Coriolanus, James Bond’s Skyfall directed by Sam Mendes, and Martin Scorsese’s The Aviator and Hugo.

What I say to to young writers is: read your Shakespeare. Read your Shelley. Read your Keats. Read your Byron. Love language.

He discusses the techniques of writing for the big screen.

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Learn from the best storytellers and television writers working in Hollywood today. Netflix, NBC, Hulu, HBOMax, Amazon, CBS and more.

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Guillermo Arriaga – Screenwriting Master Class

Arriaga came to screenwriting relatively late in life, having been a university teacher and novelist before meeting his collaborator Academy Award® Winning Director  Alejandro González Iñárritu, with whom he made some of his better-known films – Amores Perros, 21 Grams, and Babel. His work is famous for utilizing a fragmentary, non-linear approach to plot, which contributed to Amores Perros’ winning countless awards.

The first rule of screenwriting, or any art, is having no rules.

Emma Thompson – Screenwriting Master Class

The writer and actor’s feature screenwriting debut Sense and Sensibility (1995) remains one of the definitive Jane Austen screen adaptations.

In 2001 she wrote the Golden Globe-nominated Wit for director Mike Nicholls, and in 2005 penned the family hit Nanny McPhee. She returned in 2010 with the sequel Nanny McPhee And The Big Bang.

Emma Thompson described how her writing routine involves yoga and Hoovering, reflected upon her early acting experiences at Cambridge Footlights, and explained why ‘if you can’t fail, you can’t do this job’.

Aline Brosh McKenna – Screenwriting Master Class

Relatively new to the industry but with a string of commercial successes to her name already, Aline Brosh McKenna is one of Hollywood’s current ‘It’ writers, with a particular finesse for romantic comedy.

A first feature credit on Three To Tango (1999) led to Laws Of Attraction (2004). McKenna’s feature script for box-office hit The Devil Wears Prada (2006) was adapted from Lauren Weisberger’s novel.

McKenna’s sharp and sassy screenplay for The Devil Wears Prada was nominated for a BAFTA and a Writers Guild of America Award.

Nick Hornby – Screenwriting Master Class

Nick Hornby is an Oscar-nominated screenwriter and award-winning author. His most recent screenplay is an upcoming adaptation of Colm Tóibín’s acclaimed novel Brooklyn (2015), directed by John Crowley, many consider a front runner for Best Picture at this year’s Oscars®.

Prior to that, he adapted Cheryl Strayed’s NY Times bestselling memoir into the film Wild (2014) which was directed by Jean-Marc Vallée, and starred Reese Witherspoon.

Nick was Oscar® and BAFTA-nominated for his screenplay adaptation of Lynn Barber’s memoir An Education (2009) directed by Lone Scherfig and he adapted his own memoir for the screenplay of Fever Pitch (1997) starring Colin Firth.

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The Bulletproof Screenwriting collection of screenplays are organized by screenwriter's & filmmaker's career for easy access.

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IFH 206: Crossover Episode with the Just Shoot It Podcast

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Right-click here to download the MP3

I thought it would be fun to do a crossover episode with filmmaking podcast Just Shoot It with hosts Oren Kaplan and Matt Enlow. I was invited down to their studios to record a “recorded live” episode and we had a ball.

The conversation was energetic and turn heated in a few places. We talked about directing, USC Film School Grads, the state of indie films, the wonderful world of digital series and much more. It’s a great listen. Enjoy my conversation with Oren Kaplan and Matt Enlow of the Just Shoot It Podcast.

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Alex Ferrari 0:08
So today guys, we have a special episode, we have a crossover episode with the podcast just shoot it, which is hosted by Matt Enlow and Oren Kaplan. And these guys, they have a pretty cool podcast. And they talk a lot about filmmaking and talk to filmmakers and things like that. And they come from the perspective of the director because they're both professional directors working in Hollywood today. And it's it was really interesting, we had a very energetic and sometimes heated discussion in regards to the state of the film business. And from our both perspectives, and I thought it was really great, very informative, and a lot of fun to listen to. We thought that we would share our audiences, our tribes together and kind of introduce each other to each other's audiences, and I thought it'd be a lot of fun. So without any further ado, enjoy my conversation with Matt Enlow and Oren Kaplan from just shoot it.

Matt Enlow 2:17
Okay, so we're here with Alex Ferrari.

Alex Ferrari 2:20
What's up guys?

Matt Enlow 2:21
How's it going, man?

Alex Ferrari 2:22
Good, man. Good.

Matt Enlow 2:23
Thanks for reaching out to us and saying, Let's, let's chat.

Alex Ferrari 2:27
Absolutely, man, I'm a fan of the show. And you know, the filmmakers, there's a few of us doing these podcasts. So I think it's time for us to kind of join forces and help each other out as much as we can cuz it's a small community is and if we can share more information with everybody, the better.

Matt Enlow 2:40
Well, when you consider the community like when you say the community every time at directors?

Alex Ferrari 2:45
No filmmakers in general, my community is made up from everybody from the person who just wants to make thinking about making movie all the way to the high end professional that might need help with distribution. And they've never self distributed a movie or knife and gone down the distribution line. So I get everybody screenwriters, filmmakers, directors, you know, cinematographers. Every every discipline, listens to me.

Matt Enlow 3:10
And you folk, you do all types of filmmaking commercials, corporate videos, feature films, everything, mostly,

Alex Ferrari 3:16
I mostly focus on independent film. I have had commercial stuff, since I'm a commercial director, and I'm a music video director. I've had episodes that go around that that stuff, but I've mostly I'm gonna say 95% focus on independent filmmaking and being able to make an independent film or series now because series or streaming series are such a big thing now. And so many more filmmakers are going towards that world as opposed to film because it's much harder to make a film in many ways than it is to make.

Oren Kaplan 3:44
Isn't it funny how it worked out that way?

Alex Ferrari 3:46
Isn't it?

Matt Enlow 3:50
And is it? Like you're saying a streaming series? Is there any difference between a streaming series and like a network series?

Alex Ferrari 3:58
Yeah, a lot of different money. budget is the first big difference. But a lot of times when you're doing a streaming series,

Matt Enlow 4:05
Or I mean like a series on HBO versus FX versus Netflix versus Hulu, isn't it at the end of the day, kind of all the same?

Alex Ferrari 4:12
Budget, budget a much bigger budget HBO has a much bigger budget than Netflix depending on what kind of show it is and who's in that show. You know, Hulu has a much different budgets, generally speaking than Netflix does, but again, or HBO, HBO? You know, what is it Game of Thrones cost an episode

Matt Enlow 4:30
Sure. Right. But what is going to Curb Your Enthusiasm cost?

Alex Ferrari 4:33
Yeah, exactly.

Matt Enlow 4:34
What does a stranger things cost?

Alex Ferrari 4:36
Exactly. So it but when I say streaming, I'm also saying independent fee and penance series that are streaming. So there's a lot of filmmakers who are going out and raising 100 Grand 200 grand what we used to call a web series maybe right? Yes, that's a dirty word. You can call it away man. Anyone out when I was making a beard, right? It's weird, right? It is. It's super weird because you know, I always anytime someone says I want to make a web series. I'm like First thing you got to stop calling it a web series and call it a streaming series in the real world. It's a marketing perception thing. You say a web series, they think YouTube. They say I say digital digital series works fine as well streaming or digital series was much better than web series.

Matt Enlow 5:14
Yeah, when I worked at Disney and direct and web series, but now when I tell people what I did there, I said and directed a digital, like a digital show, episodic, digital episodic show.

Oren Kaplan 5:25
You just call it a show at this point, right?

Matt Enlow 5:27
Yeah. on IMDb they put TV show.

Alex Ferrari 5:30
Yeah, it's always there because they haven't caught on yet to watch it. And thank God, they haven't because it makes you look bigger when

Matt Enlow 5:37
Wow. It kind of has the opposite effect. Sometimes I'll see someone and they'll have like a TV credit on IMDB. I'm like, Oh, yeah, right. And then it turns out, it's like a real TV show.

Alex Ferrari 5:47
But there's just so much content out there. You can't even keep track of it. I'm sure. When we were when we were coming up. I mean, you know, we can watch everything. We literally could watch every movie that came out that week at the video store. Or every series. I'm like, you could really but now there's what I think 500 scripted series. Yeah, I think that's the number. That's the number I think, four 450 500. That's insane. Like, I know shows, yeah, they have massive audiences that I've never seen an episode of.

Oren Kaplan 6:14
Sure. I think it's more interesting when those audiences are very small, right? Like, but still have the same sort of budget, not even passion. I'm talking about like, I'm talking about that we're in a bubble, right? And that like scripted, episodic series of eventually, sooner than later probably are going to start going away. And that number 500 is going to be less and less.

Alex Ferrari 6:37
I would agree with you.

Matt Enlow 6:38
But even like a madman that won every award like nobody wants it outside of LA, right.

Oren Kaplan 6:43
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know the actual numbers on Mad Men, but like,

Alex Ferrari 6:46
It was like three, I saw The number Actually, I did just see an article with the numbers. And it was it was like three, I think it never hit more than three, 4 million. Oh, no, I'm sure it's less than that. even less than that. Probably 1.8 or something like that. Yeah,

Oren Kaplan 6:58
I remember, I can't remember the exact numbers but realizing like oh, more people watch College Humor sketches that I shoot then watch the newest episode of girls. Like I'd be disappointed with the performance of like a funny internet sketch comedy video relative to plenty of premium xyc guys t Emmy Award winning TV.

Matt Enlow 7:20
When I was working on the quiznos campaign, we were doing all these parodies. And I pitched them they had this like lobster sandwich. And I was just gonna do like a video called lobsters, which is like a, like a girl's parody. Sure. And cuisine is based in Denver. None of them had ever seen girls. And they're like, we don't know what that show is or like, why anyone would care about it. I was like, What are you Tom? its biggest show all the teens are talking about it? No, no, like, no. Just you.

Alex Ferrari 7:45
But I mean, you look at YouTube. I mean, you get these YouTubers that are, you know, they put out an episode of them just sitting there talking and they get 2 3 million downloads. So that's more than most television shows, you know,

Oren Kaplan 7:56
I mean, and like millions of people are listening to this show as we speak, right?

Alex Ferrari 8:00
If not billions, if not billions. But it's true, though. And the barrier to entry has gotten so affordable. That I mean, YouTube is a perfect example, these guys who are who have 567 8 million followers, and they just put out these little videos that for their audience works beautifully with, you know, either sometimes a little production value, or it's just them talking or whatever it is. But it's content, you know, and like I said before, on another show an hour of content, if I'm watching an hour of something, it doesn't cost It doesn't matter if it cost $100 million dollars or $100. Still an hour. And that's you know, that's and that's where before you couldn't make an hour of content for $100. Right, you know what I mean?

Oren Kaplan 8:45
Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting because we lump all pre recorded linear video content together, right? But like the difference between, say the video of us all, like shooting the shit around the table, versus a vlog that's maybe a little bit more produced versus Conan or feature. Yeah, like doing a monologue or interacting with your community or your fan base versus scripted. It all gets lumped together. And it's always been so strange and so fascinating to me. And I feel like I've seen a lot of articles recently that are like about the nature of premium advertisers getting upset with advertising against less than premium content, and that there's kind of a course correction there going back to more traditional avenues of like broadcast and cable, even though YouTube ad spends are like through the roof right now. Yep. So we'll see. Well, nowadays,

Matt Enlow 9:44
definitely, when I'm doing like commercial stuff, if it's gonna be like a YouTube pre roll, and it is literally playing at the same place that the Geico and you know, Little Caesars in the State Farm commercials are playing. So I kind of feel like even though it's not a broadcast ad, it's basically well being Might as well be it's gonna be a minor 32nd ad,

Alex Ferrari 10:03
you'll get more eyes than network ad in many, many, many ways. Yeah, just won't get the cat. Yeah. It's not the same. Exactly.

Matt Enlow 10:13
Well, let's just to back up a little. So you have a podcast? Yes. And you film hustling you have a website, you have the soul basically, kind of like an educational film education community that you've built over the past couple years. And you're also a director, and is, so when you set out to create this, you know, kind of like indie film, hustle. Was there any connection to your directing? Like, aside from your experience? Like Did you do it to try to get more jobs?

Alex Ferrari 10:39
Not I mean, I mean, who in their right mind would start a podcast or blog to get more directing work? Like that's just craziness? Funny story? No, and it did happen for me as well. But you don't go into it writing corn that you're going to like that was the last year

Oren Kaplan 10:55
that's a bad plan to go start a podcast in order to do

Matt Enlow 10:58
well? Well, I mean, I guess that's what I think I'm asking what I think is worth discussing is like, there's people, there's filmmakers, we have listeners, you have listeners that want to move to LA and make movies or TV shows or commercials or whatever. And they're writing and they're pitching and they're doing all this stuff, but they're not that busy. Like what are these? What are the other things they can be doing to kind of generate a network and a community and like, basically, opportunities for work? Like for us? This is one of those things like, is that kind of part of what drives you for indie film, hustle?

Alex Ferrari 11:33
No, what drives? I mean, look, there, I wouldn't be lying to you, if I didn't say insane amount of opportunities have opened up, I've got you know, I landed, you know, a $10 million Hulu job, you know, doing all the post production for it purely because of my podcast. Like, you know, the producer listened to the podcast and said, Hey, I need some help with post. I'm like, Okay, great. And let's and then all of a sudden, I got the job. And you were post super. I was on that one. I was a I was the online editor, color grader and I did all the deliverables for the Hulu show. And handled all the visual effects like placing it on the Nintendo Switch. Oh, yeah, it was dimension 4040 cool throughout the jump for any level you are Yeah, rocking jumps. Yeah, rocket jump. Yeah. To work with rocket jump, which was an education in itself. What are those guys? And yeah, Matt went to college with all those guys. Did you? Well,

Oren Kaplan 12:22
I'm a little bit older than those students. Really like my roommates little brother

Matt Enlow 12:29
In a school tear that

Oren Kaplan 12:32
three or four years, there was a little bit overlap anyway.

Alex Ferrari 12:35
But yeah, dad's and Freddie and Matt, those guys were awesome to work with. And, you know, I picked their brain about how they built their community. And I did a whole I think, a two hour podcast with Dez. Just about how they built, you know, this massive community. But yeah, and then I landed a show they did a digital a digital series for Legendary Pictures recently. And that was, again because of the show. So those doors open up a lot. But it was not my, my focus. I didn't open up, you know, didn't start a podcast and start up in the film hustle to go. This is going to get me directing work. Because on paper, that sounds ridiculous. Sure.

Oren Kaplan 13:09
And it's more really that there's a great opportunity in meeting other filmmakers right now. That's just plain old networking, but also like you would do it for fun anyway.

Alex Ferrari 13:22
Right? I mean, I have access. In sure you guys do too you meet these directors or screenwriters, or producers or finance ears or whoever, that you would have never in a million years been able to sit down and talk to for an hour and a half, and make a connection of some sort with them. So the podcast is extremely powerful for that. But if other filmmakers want to try to get in on that game, it's gonna be tough because it it I mean, you know, you guys been doing this for two years, I've been doing it for two and a half years. This is a long game. This is not a short game. And you've got to love what you're doing. But But the main reason I even opened up in the film, hustle start is because I honestly wanted to help filmmakers, because I found there was so much misinformation out there. And there's not a lot of people that have actually walked the walk, who were talking,

Matt Enlow 14:06
and I'm putting you on the spot. Sure. Can you name five of these common misconceptions that you can send out to correct? They don't have to be the five biggest ones. Just five, five, I mean that you should your distribution plan should be Sundance, that is your distribution plan, that you're going to make a movie and I'm going to get into Sundance and win and then I'm going to get a million dollars and live in Hollywood Hills. That's like a Craigslist posting that's like, please come work on a Sundance submitted work.

Alex Ferrari 14:36
And short film.

Matt Enlow 14:38
I'm working on a project that's being submitted to Sundance, right? Yeah, there actually is not a project that is

Alex Ferrari 14:44
exactly so those kinds of things. Understanding marketing, understanding how to build an audience how to distribute your own film. Just how to put as many tools in your toolbox. You know, I'm a kind jack of all trades kind of filmmaker so I learned every aspect of the of the business because I needed to I was you know, I hate to say I came up from the street but you know, I started in a very small market in Miami. So you had to just to be able to live I've only been out here for 10 years and when I got out here It sounds funny to say that but that is about how long it takes to like kind of get it right it takes it takes a while to get going especially if you can now like 10 years ago was a lot easier than coming in today.

Oren Kaplan 15:29
I feel like Miami actually as a scene is really kind of like hopping right now. Like I feel like more and more I'm hearing about people shooting in Miami and

Matt Enlow 15:36
have you heard of moonlight ballers? not asking when? And now shooting in Atlanta wait does the show still take place in my you know, I

Alex Ferrari 15:52
think I don't know I haven't I haven't seen the nieces but they did leave. I think it's Louisiana or or Atlanta.

Oren Kaplan 15:58
I'm really behind on my ballers as well.

Alex Ferrari 16:00
I do. You know it's on my list. I really do want to watch ballers

Matt Enlow 16:03
first season is great. That's the second season is horrible. It's just like he's great. And like an entourage. They're just yeah. And there's like a breakout performance in there. I I would say look out for this guy. The Rock. No, you know, I forget Isaiah Washington everywhere. Yeah, no, what's his name? He's Denzel Washington. Son. He's Oh, what do you mean football players? Oh, my God, His name. But he's really he's quite good. Yeah, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 16:30
So I lost track what we were talking about. Oh, you're telling me your five things. Yeah. So those are the kinds of things that kind of set out to kind of show and, like, basic understanding is something called post production workflow. And understanding that concept, because I've seen so many filmmakers walk through my doors, who had no understanding about workflow. And they're like, Hey, I'm going to go shoot this, and I'm going to shoot it on five cameras. And I'm going to, I'm going to edit it on two different systems. And I'm going to do it at or download it, you know, on the side somewhere, and then, and then we use proxies. And we're gonna come back and reconnect the red files. And like all this kind of horror stories that costs filmmakers, 1000s and 1000s of dollars, or just stops the movie I know, I saw, remember, one movie was in the heart, the kids hard drive for like two years, because he could not afford to get and it was shot cable. And it was also shot on the red one. Back when red ones workflow was challenging to say the least. So they brought it to me, I'm like, I can do it for you. But I can't do this for free, this is gonna be a lot of work. And the poor kid was like waiting and waiting till they finally got the money to get his movie. So those are the kinds of things that I wanted to try to help because that's just simple conversation to help could have helped that that project all the way through this is how to prep a project. Just Just understanding basic workflow.

Matt Enlow 17:49
What's like, what do you see between filmmakers that make one movie and like the people that have sustainable? Yeah, well, making

Oren Kaplan 17:56
the difference? That's the thing that we think about all the time, the difference between a first time filmmaker getting one movie made and then never making another one again, which is a common Oh, all the time. All right, most. what's the what's the difference between that and the person who makes a living?

Matt Enlow 18:11
Yeah, like, Who? When you Yeah, I guess. And that's what we try to talk about our pilots, how can you make a living as a filmmaker, right? And not like, crowdfund this and do this and meet rich dentist, you know, like, not the like credit card and filmmaker, but the sustainable life filmmaker that can live forever? Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 18:31
have put food on the table for his family, and so on and so forth.

Matt Enlow 18:34
Yeah, I mean, and what mistakes like what are what misperception to people have about that, that you kind of talk about through indie film, hustle?

Alex Ferrari 18:41
Well, through any film, hustle, I talk? Honestly, with filmmakers, I know more filmmakers who don't do a second feature, then do a second feature. Because doing if you don't know how to do the first one, right? Meaning you overextend yourself, you become too ambitious, you spend too much money, you have no idea how to make money with it, you're not going to get an opportunity to make a second one, no one's gonna hire you. So that means that you're gonna have to do the credit card thing. And then you know, when you make a quarter of a million dollar movie, chances of you make a $10,000 movie are pretty nil. Unless you've started at the 10,000 worlds. So you started at the 250. And then just you're done. And then you're done at that point. What I see filmmakers, at least that that I've seen have made it is they're smart about it. I had a friend of mine who had a big hit with a really low budget film. What was the film I was called blackballed with my buddy Brandon. He's been on the show. And he, he made a movie. He's used to be the tape vault operator over at Comedy Central. And he did this like little movie on the weekends. I think his budget were like 30 grand or something like that. When it was all said and done. And he got some investors. It's like maybe partially improvised. It was mostly Yeah, it was mostly like, Yeah, because those guys were amazing. revisers so they kind of shot a bunch of stuff on like, the Canon XL or whatever it was back in the day. And he made that movie. And it went South by Southwest. And he got an agent and he went down that path. Then he got, if I'm not mistaken, he did one. I think he did another movie before this big they won't. But he made a big movie was a big movie being 1,000,002 million dollar movie. But it didn't do well, because it wasn't positioned properly and stuff. So what did he do? So after that, many filmmakers would have just been like, I'm done. He went out and did another found footage, horror movie, you know, by himself for like, no money. And he went out and sold it. And he went out and made money with it. And that put him back on the map. And then he then he's in now he's working on a much bigger budget film, and he's been able, and then he does commercials on the side, and does music videos, other things like that, that keep on going. But that's smart. You know, you don't give up and even after, you know, fair, you know, pretty much a fit, not a failure, but because it was a fun movie, but it just didn't make money. It was too It was too commercial for the Indian to end for the commercial. So he was in that really gray area. But he kind of built out his career doing this like thinking about what the next step is, and not putting all his eggs into one basket, which I think is a mistake a lot of filmmakers make, they're like, this is the thing that's going to blow me up. This is the big one that's going to get me the Oscar the Sundance or whatever that bs is where the filmmaker who makes a career out of it understands that this is a job. This is one project and I'm going to have multiple other projects and I don't put too much emphasis on the one. It's going to it has to be good. It has to be great. It has to get to the next level. Sure. But it's not the end all be all if it doesn't succeed, and you have to have other things at your one shot. It's not your one shot.

Matt Enlow 21:48
Look if it is there, is there kind of the other example like I guess there's one way to think about it. It's like, I want to be a filmmaker, I'm gonna make a movie and make the money back so I can make another movie and I can kind of keep making like I'll make the $10,000 feature then the 100, then the 250 then the million dollar, but then there's also the guy that's like the DP that shot like a bunch of movies learned how to make a movie and then went goes and makes blue ruin. And the next movie he makes is going to be like a $20 million studio film right. or green room, which was I think 1.50 no way it was 1.59 way 1.5 with it now. Yeah, yeah. scale, we should double check. But like it's not it's not a

Alex Ferrari 22:28
it's not a $20 million.

Oren Kaplan 22:29
It's definitely not a 20 they don't make 20 million. They rarely do anyone actually realized they The reason the only way to make a $20 million movie now is for it to be a female driven ensemble comedy. Like girls trip or girls trip rough night. Yeah, stuff like that. Moms Bad Moms too. I mean, and they're great. It's like so awesome. But it's so funny that that's like the new formula for a $20 million movie because they're gonna spend probably 50 marketing. Sure. Well, and, you know, probably 18 on cast.

Exactly. I think that's probably literally true. I've relied on it. Alright, so we're meet in the middle.

Matt Enlow 23:06
But but by 20 times the budget probably from Blue ruin. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 23:10
You look at you look at Matt isn't Matt Webb who did the spider man's artwork when Mark lab right. So Mark Webb,

Matt Enlow 23:16
but after a giant music video commercial. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 23:19
Mark is like, yeah, and then he did fine.

Matt Enlow 23:21
He's doing multimillion dollar music like commercial. Sure. Of course. Yeah. He's

Alex Ferrari 23:25
a big guy. But there are those weird scenarios where like, oh, the commercial director or the musical director or the guy who's in one feature gets a tentpole.

Matt Enlow 23:34
But what's the better strategy? Like, I guess, in my mind, it's funny, I, you know, my first movie, like all I wanted to do was get the investors paid back. That was like, my number one thing, and I didn't care if I had to, like, sure go out and like, have people pay me $10? Yeah, I was literally I literally, my basement is filled with hundreds of DVDs of my movie. He still hasn't given me one yet. Do you even own in DVD player? Yes, you probably had the word VHS. No, that's not true, everyone? Well, I think making as many movies as you can is always the best move, making as many things as you can, right? You always get better. But I think for my next movie, unless something happens, and I get a studio film, which probably won't happen, but for my next movie, or even TV series or short film, like To me it's more about kind of showing my point of view and hopefully proving that I have something interesting to say or like I'm an interesting filmmaker. Sure, then it is about making money. Oh, absolutely.

Alex Ferrari 24:34
But the thing is that your film has to make some sort of money in order to continue to make more art.

Matt Enlow 24:40
But do you think blue, maybe blue ruin made money? Yeah.

Oren Kaplan 24:43
You know, I think that maybe what we're kind of circling around is, is the fact that we had this dream. I want to get back to talking about dreams actually in a minute as well. Because I don't I think dream is kind of a dirty word to me. But The point is, is that we grew up thinking that a filmmaking career was one thing, right? And over experience and time, and also the industry shifting now it's something totally different, right? So tomorrow be something and do tomorrow do something different. But also like that idea of like striking it rich and moving to the hills. It doesn't really exist for anyone anymore.

Alex Ferrari 25:22
That's the lottery ticket mentality is one of the that's the mariachi is the Kevin Smith's. That was the 90 Yeah, you're naming people that would suck so long ago.

Matt Enlow 25:30
No, but what about, you know, the Trish seas of the world or whatever, like people that did music videos, and then they did a sequel, like Pitch Perfect three, and then their next movie will be right. But those are very giant music, but they're very few of those

Alex Ferrari 25:44
examples out there.

Matt Enlow 25:45
Well, but there's this giant studio says, I mean, there's all this content, all these TVs? Sure, sure. Directors, there's all these movies that need directors, there's all these digital series that need directors and commercials and music video here and there. Right? So well, directors have to come from somewhere. Right? Right. So he's not going to direct these guys

Oren Kaplan 26:05
to do the pilot and but so so we're in this weird or in an iron brothers situation. I haven't done a feature yet. Right. But we're both booking series a scripted content pretty regularly,

Matt Enlow 26:18
right? Like in the million dollar. Yeah,

Oren Kaplan 26:20
totally. Like, you know, if you travel back in time, and be like, Hey, this is how you're gonna spend, you know, your year. I'm stoked, right? Like just shooting like crazy, a bunch of fun stuff. But I still want to do a feature. Why do I want to do a feature? There's two good reasons one ego share, right? That's the thing that drives me constantly. But then the other thing is, I think there is a little bit of a resume building aspect to it. And that's I think, what Oren you're getting at and we're all kind of circling around Is that you? It's hard to be taken seriously as a filmmaker without a film Evo. I shot you know, but

Matt Enlow 26:53
you don't think if you had you think like Tony ascenta who's never made a movie,

Oren Kaplan 26:59
Tony, Tony said on Google listen to the podcast, he caught so much it he had a great pitch and a great team behind them but like hot, constant shit, he meet me in American van he made American radio and didn't have a didn't have never made a feature. And like was questioned the entire time. We texted him a little bit. And I

Matt Enlow 27:17
guess even Paul brigante who directs SNL and has done a ton of TV now, he hadn't done a feature before and he just went made like a tiny micro micro budget feature. Just doing even though he's drinking like crazy ex girlfriend, all these like great TV shows. It's It's a weird thing. The the the feature, which in all honesty is is is going away more and more and more towards Siri. It's kind of for old people.

Alex Ferrari 27:45
I mean, I hate to say it, I mean, but I look, I'm always gonna watch features. It's sure I love features. It's you know, but overall, look, I just, you know, watch, I love watching Stranger Things, you know, and bingeing on that that's another kind of entertainment. But I think the feature does still have this, this kind of cachet, especially within the industry. You know, I just directed my first feature last year, and doors opened, just because I did this micro budget feature. And people were just like, whoa, wait a minute, and like, oh, now he's and I've been directing videos and commercials and shorts that are award winning, and all this kind of stuff. And the second you do the feature, everyone just felt like okay, now he's a real filmmaker,

Matt Enlow 28:28
but do you think that they perceived you differently, or you perceived you probably a little bit of both. And that you because when you make a feature, you spend so much frickin time on it that you end up telling everyone about it, you're promoting it, you're really pushing it when you make a digital series. You've talked about it for two weeks, and then you move on to the next thing. Well, I

Alex Ferrari 28:46
think also that what the feature is, like a lot of people that were talking to me it was people that I've known for years, that all of a sudden have a different perspective on me, purely because I directed a feature film and does it so doesn't matter if the movie is good or not. And a lot of ways yes and no, it all depends. Does it have a nice trailer? You know, at the end of the day, I hate to say it but you know like is the trailer look good? If it looks good? Does it look good? Where's it been? Like I sold it to whoever nice famous actors in it yes I have some famous famous but that all recognizable yeah everyone you probably recognize oh that's that person yeah that guy died in that thing Yeah, but no no actually had like people from Reno 911 and mad TV so like, okay, it's his faces Yeah,

Matt Enlow 29:29
that's actually the same actor that was both on Reno nine on one and Manti

Alex Ferrari 29:34
but a really good weeks on it was great. But no, I'm I lost my train of thought What?

Matt Enlow 29:42
I was asking if the movie had to be good. And you said that the trailer has to be the truth

Alex Ferrari 29:46
in all honesty in the look how many people in this town actually watched the frame?

Oren Kaplan 29:50
Well, but I guess to qualify, right, you said the trailer has to look good. So it's pretty hard to cut a good trailer from a bad movie. That's one and also It's hard to get a bad movie into good film past. So people aren't going to watch your movie, but they want to know that it's good by signifier. But

Alex Ferrari 30:07
I think what's more important than getting into a film festival because there's really only five that matter. sure that's true. That's the only five that matter. And I've been in over 600 film festivals, all my projects over the years. And so I know the five the LA funny films festival, obviously, New York Film Fest in New York funny film. Sorry. But what's more impressive now is did you get it on Netflix? Did you get it on Hulu? That is different because I was just another micro budget film until I sold it to Hulu. Plus, Hulu doesn't take everything you have. Alex, do you know why? Hulu was interested in your film? It just hit the right note for them. And they and I think it was probably a combination of the genre. A hopefully I'm hoping it's they'd like the film. And the cast, right. This

Matt Enlow 31:01
is the movie about the actress mag. Yeah, this is Mike that's trying to figure out like she's on the right path. No, she's

Alex Ferrari 31:08
no, the story is about an actress who has is a success. You know, she was successful. And she's a working actress, but she's not 21 anymore. And she's kind of left behind. Like, she doesn't do social media. She doesn't do YouTube stuff. And she's like, I got 20 years of amazing experience. And I you know, I've been on big shows, but I can't get booked because the 20 year old sure because she has a million Twitter followers, like this is so frustrating. And you wrote this to write, she wrote, we wrote it together. But she's the one who wrote the final we came up with the story. And we went obviously

Matt Enlow 31:40
something that you could find a personal connection to,

Alex Ferrari 31:43
I don't know, she I called her up. I said, Jill, I want to make a movie about your life. And she's like, okay, and we and we came up with the scriptment. And then she ironed it all out. And she she wrote it for her friend. And they came over and we shot in a daze. And who paid for it. I crowdfunded it to my audience. Oh, wow. So it was, you know, it was in the profit before we finished the final cut. So Wow, that's, that's, but that's how you kind of do it. And then then we sold it. To Hulu. We itself do we did self distribution through iTunes and Amazon. And then I went through, I wanted to kind of control the distribution on and a lot of ways I use Mac as an example to my my audience to go Look, guys, this is the path, I did it, you can do it as well. And I'm going to take it all the way through and I'm gonna show you how I take it all the way through,

Oren Kaplan 32:35
it almost becomes a case study for your art

Alex Ferrari 32:36
interesting without question, and I did it in many ways, as a case study for myself. Because after so many years, I'm sure you can relate the like, Can I make a movie? Like, you know what, like, what what do you make this big mountain you got to climb and I just kind of cut that mountain down. I just it's funny, I don't have that. I'm like so ready to go make it? Sure.

Matt Enlow 32:58
Honestly, you have a different problem, which is a problem that I have that a lot of us have, which is that you have a job offer to go do a digital series or branded content or whatever, you don't want to turn it down because there is someone saying, Hey, we want you and we're going to give you a crew and pay you and everything's ready to go. You just step in, and the budget is like significant and yeah, and here you talk a little bit of a little bit of golden handcuffs.

Oren Kaplan 33:23
I think honestly, for me, there's a little bit of like, creative and decisiveness I'm dealing with right now. I think that's I know, I can go make a movie, right. Like I was alluding to the the series that you know, I did the previous years, like, I did eight half hour episodes back to back just this summer, right? Like that's two movies in a row. So like, I know, I can do that stuff. And I'm not scared of it. It's more just like which one do I want it like what it is the one that's exciting and

Alex Ferrari 33:53
that and then tomorrow you wake up and you're 60 sure exactly. Yeah. That was what I was afraid. Oh, yeah. Man is none of us. Here are 28 I just turned 59. Exactly. You look fantastic. Hey, thanks, man. The secret is beer and salty snacks. Yes. Sodium sodium preserved. But yeah, that's that's how I finally I did it. And by doing that, I did show a lot of of my audience that it could be done. But what the second I announced that I went to Hulu, it that wasn't it's like, oh, no, you're not just a dude. They just made a microfilm micro budget film and on iTunes. Sure, you know, throughout an aggregate again, it's signifiers, right? It's just like, people don't have time to watch your movie, but they need something to grab on to to say, oh, okay, this is good, because there's a 1000s of movies. Yeah. So just by being able to say that it was purchased by Hulu. And then we also went with a foreign distributor to handle my foreign sales. And we sell China we sell South Africa, we sold a bunch of territories, which is shocking to me like, Well, I

Oren Kaplan 34:57
mean, the signifier again, right like that's probably part Have it

Alex Ferrari 35:00
i'm sure yeah, I'm sure and now we have other after AFM. We have other deals on the table as well. So off of this little short it's a little a feature film alone, you know? Sure only took you eight days, bro. It took eight edited in three weeks.

Matt Enlow 35:13
Wait are you serious? Yeah. You shot in eight days? Yeah. edited in three weeks

Alex Ferrari 35:18
I shot in an eight days I was a dp on it. I did I took me three weeks to cut cut it four weeks to color it because I was the DP so I want to make sure you've seen it on shot on the Blackmagic Blackmagic 2.5 cinema. We shot two camera brick yellowbrick Exactly. Oh fun. And we shot it raw because I knew I was here to help. Yeah, and I did it. And it was the first thing I ever do paid. Meaning the first thing feature I didn't feel Sure, sure. But I've been a colors for mine to choose to shoot yourself because I couldn't afford to hire dp and also I wanted to do it myself. I just I just this story was controlled enough that I think I can make it look good because also I'm a colorist I've been a colorist for 10 years. So I seen what I could do with really bad footage. So I'm like I can shoot better than this.

Matt Enlow 36:06
Right? You had like a gaffer and key grip.

Alex Ferrari 36:09
The crew was three people. It was Roman. Yeah, it was me. I was I was a camera and the director, Jill was the slate girl and care and craft service. I had my gaff and my second big camera. And then I had a guy who held the boom, because I can't call him the shower. I actually showed them how to use the Tascam and here's the record and I bought the gear was all my gear and I taught myself how to record audio and let's shoot and I did testing beforehand. I took it to my audio guys and I'm like, is this good lights? Yeah, of course. Yeah, we had some lights. But I'm curious how many lights? Like two three? Yeah, yeah, de la DC. I

Matt Enlow 36:53
just LED on battery power. And ladies are nuts, man. Just name the whole game. Oh, it's like I used to not be able to shoot anything without like an HDMI which kind of like forever 120 bucks a day. I needed 2000

Oren Kaplan 37:06
watts ci the big changes like you don't see people with hot hands. You don't see gloves anymore.

Alex Ferrari 37:11
You don't need to know Well, yes. Yeah. And they're so insane. Like he literally he had you know, you put a brick on the back of it and we'd stick it on top of refrigerator. Forget about it. And you're good. Yeah. And you're good and you just like turn it on doesn't get hot.

Oren Kaplan 37:22
Sure. Sure. I like I don't like that. And then somebody dial something in on it color temperature you want. Yeah, yeah. So

Alex Ferrari 37:27
we use mostly that and I think one day we use the dimmer with China ball for a big outdoor scene. And that was it. So I really kind of stripped down the process to like, what do I absolutely need to capture image capture an audio and tell a story and then write that story around it and it was also a script so it was a mostly improv but we structured out scenes and had story beats that they had to find but again the guys that were all my actors they're just the legendary improv t shirt you know not gotta you like so it was like by wow that Yeah.

Matt Enlow 38:03
Did you have any teeth scene Did you know Yeah, when they say cut? Absolutely. So

Alex Ferrari 38:08
we just did it was very duplass brothers kind of way or just Weinberg kind of way of just kind of like a lot of nudity in this movie. There was no nudity you know? There was there was inside your shirt. It was some side boot and maybe a nipple through a shirt no balls. No there was no testicle there was no testicles now

Oren Kaplan 38:27
I'm not watching it. Sorry. You know it I think that's really interesting though because I was just running around shooting some night exteriores we talked about in another episode but I wonder if there's we're about to see kind of a new indie movement of like the three man five man crew like I'm curious to see as lightning has changed some Yeah, with all the stuff that we're talking about.

Matt Enlow 38:52
I think it's like 10 years ago. There was like the dv x 100 or whatever.

Oren Kaplan 38:57
This camera of all time. Oh, man. amaze me my fretboard and the DVS

Matt Enlow 39:01
that made everyone like everyone can shoot cinematic stuff now, right? Yes, yes, but you can light cinematic so now you can light led so the next revolution hopefully 10 years from now. It's like some plugin and After Effects. It just adds extras. That's the only bet to me that thing? Well, I biggest thing that is like if I want to go make a no budget movie to me like you want to David Fincher scene. You know, there's two guys talking in a bar. There's like, yeah, there's 30. Yeah. No, it's true. They'll never reuse them. And that's what I my stuff can never look like that. Because no one is going to get me 100 extras for a two person conversation in a bar.

Alex Ferrari 39:39
Right, exactly. But I think honestly, the next revolution is going to be distribution, because I think technically we're at a place where anyone could shoot pretty much anything, though. Even the stuff that I just talked about with how I shot it. I mean, I've got 20 odd years behind me. Sure, sure. You know, there's a level of skill there's, there's some tools in the toolbox you need to be able to do That. So you need someone like me or someone who has that kind of skill set that be able to handle all those jobs and be able to do it at a, at a decent level or, or just has made three movies worth of mistakes.

Oren Kaplan 40:10
Do you know what I mean? Exactly? You can be 22 and have done this a couple times now. Absolutely.

Alex Ferrari 40:15
You know, absolutely. But you know, there's something to be said for Ah, you know, after you do it so many times it does, it does help. But yet the more Look, I'm sure there's I know, for a fact there's 22 year old that I've done six features. Yeah. You know, they've been on my show. And I'm like, how many features? Oh, yeah, I'm done. I've done six somewhere myself. How old? Are you 90? And I'm like,

Matt Enlow 40:35
Yeah. Is it bad? And I don't care at all about distribution. It's been zero?

Oren Kaplan 40:43
Maybe? Yes. I honestly, I think that because, Alex, I don't mean to cut you off. But I think that what you're getting at is that it's the it's the final point of the, of the chain, right? And is the thing that has changed significantly. And if we can master distribution, and master our audiences and master how to get our movies into people's hands, then you make whatever the fuck you want.

Alex Ferrari 41:05
Absolutely. And I think, you know, you're coming from a different perspective, as far as I don't care about distribution, because generally your projects have distribution or have a marketing budget or have a budget period, you know, when you're doing it, but you know, for people who are making 100, you know, even $100,000 features, or $50,000 features or $10,000 features, they have to understand not only distribution, but they also have to understand marketing and audience building and or at minimum marketing, and how to use Facebook, which is the most powerful marketing tool on the planet. And if they understand those three things, that's I think that the final thing because I think it's a crime that any film school today does not teach, distribution, marketing, social media, and audience building, it is as crucial in the filmmaking process as lens choice camera, if you're going to try to do it yourself, if you're going to go into the studio system, or you're going to be working with other you know, other scenarios. But if you're going to try to do it yourself, which in all honesty, most of us when you start you start doing it yourself, and tell us how you got to where you are.

Matt Enlow 42:09
Well yeah, I guess it's not that I never cared about like when I was doing all my YouTube stuff like you and although our garbage that ruined to YouTube, I mean, I was at least part of the you were part of the problem. I was involved with the people that did it that would like make 100 YouTube accounts, comment on their own videos and get them to the top of the front page of YouTube. You can gain like,

Oren Kaplan 42:29
like profile or a thumbnail image. Yeah, well, you were the you were the click clickbait

Matt Enlow 42:35
clickbait. But I would back when YouTube first started and it should, you can set your own thumbnail it would be this literally the the haidle frame. Yeah, so if you had a seven minute video, that frame at three and a half minutes was what your thumbnail would be. So yes, you would gain like, let's say, like, we made this video called spinning rainbow, which was about like that spinning rainbow on your Mac, you know, and computers get stuck as well, right? Yeah, the beach ball of death or whatever. And my wife Kara, there is a shot of her at the end of the video that where she's like about to take her shirt off. And then you see the beach ball of death. You see some cleavage. And you know, it's one of those types of frames. And I've made that the middle frame and the second half of the video is just the spinning ball. But yeah, so that's the that's the thumbnail on the comments must've been beautiful of that. But that's what you used to have to do to get views. So yes, and my first feature, you know, we got screwed by the distributor. Like they made a million dollars and we son none of the money, all that stuff. But I guess my dog care as a filmmaker, my evolution on thinking about the business has gone from I used to really care about cameras and lenses and lights and how am I going to buy this? And how am I going to make this and how am I going to get people to watch it. And now I'm much more focused on trying to make something that I think is good and people will like so that I can give it to somebody else to like worry about like distribution is its own, like beast with professionals, and people and like, I don't want to compete against Netflix and distribution. I want to make a show and have Netflix distribute it you know, our Hulu distributed like marketing is different, you know, and that's I think even the biggest filmmakers in the world like are like Oh, there's like the billboards are crappy or like the artwork is dumb or like look at this Justice League poster like who had seen this movie with this dumb poster racers are so dumb, you guys. Yeah,

Oren Kaplan 44:32
but when you look at like PT Anderson, like shot extra footage for the Magnolia trailer, it's an It's incredible. You know, like there are those are tools like the social network and the Fincher stuff. Yeah, trailers.

Alex Ferrari 44:43
Yeah, they're incredible. The Deadpool one of the best marketing campaigns, yeah,

Matt Enlow 44:47
marketing, I love marketing. And that's like a lot of what is my background is trying to make videos that are marketing other projects, you know.

Alex Ferrari 44:58
We'll be right back after a while. word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Matt Enlow 45:08
So, I think the marketing side is really important advertising I obviously like love you I just don't want to get into until like distribution accurate uploading things to iTunes and do like, I don't know, I guess it's just like, if the goal is to be a filmmaker, why am I wasting my time worrying about this? Like

Oren Kaplan 45:29
how? Well the answer is the obvious answer is that you're the only person who really cares. That's the truth. Right? Right. And so unless,

Matt Enlow 45:39
but I want to get on but I want to make stuff that people care about, I guess, does that make sense.

Alex Ferrari 45:43
But in today's world, in today's landscape, if you don't have the privilege, or the opportunity to do what you're saying, to give it to a distribution person, or to give it to somebody to market, your work won't get seen. And as this every day that goes by, and every minute that goes by, and another 200 million hours is uploaded to YouTube or online somewhere. It's the the waters are getting muddier and muddier and muddier to the point where what do you think it's going to look what the landscape is gonna look like, in five years, or in 10 years, it's gonna be impossible to get anyone to even pay attention to you, unless you have one of these big, you know, companies that will pump, you know, Justice League kind of money out there for your project to get seen, and they'll get lost. So if you don't understand the way that works, you might get left behind as a filmmaker. And it's sad, but it is the reality of and from my point of view, at least, it's the reality of where we're at. And where we're going. I don't think it's going to change anytime soon.

Matt Enlow 46:40
But that I guess the opposite thing. Look, I think there's something pure about making a film and getting people to see it, because you think it's people should see it. Because it's, you think you're saying something that's worth listening to. And they're, you're really trying to get the biggest audience you can get, or at least the demo that will connect to your stuff. And then there's the other point of view. I talked about this on podcast before, like during the writers strike of 2007 or whatever, I made this video about the writer strike. And that's like how I got like my first agent, my first manager, it had got like, 20,000 views, not not a ton, but all like 95% of those 20,000 views were Hollywood people. Right? So like, like in a show, like Broad City like nobody watched that web show. But Amy Poehler came, you know, found it and now it's those people are super successful. And they have this giant show that a lot of people love. But I don't think Ilana Glazer and Abbi Jacobson care about distribution, right? They just care about making the best show they can make and pushing, you know,

Alex Ferrari 47:45
but the thing is, you just said something. Amy Poehler founder,

Matt Enlow 47:49
you know, without Amy they're still wobbling around with an audience find them because she's, like, opened up new york times, and they're like, check out this awesome web series. She found it because they knew someone and they said, I mean, you probably

Oren Kaplan 48:02
haven't been the reason they, they were UCB people. And so like, it was a buzzy show, and they pitched me on it. They lived in New York, and hung out at the theater that Amy Poehler founded. That is the reason and then also on top of that, can volterman Hulu and comedies ran Comedy Central this time? New Amy Poehler because he was on the UCB TV show back in the day. Well, everyone knew subpolar Sure, sure. But, like, I never texted him. Yeah, yeah. I mean, maybe not. Not literally, but like, yeah, they were friends. They knew each other from back and but there's always stories like that.

Alex Ferrari 48:37
And there's always I mean, we've all felt fallen into luck. You know, like, Oh, this person knew this person need this person got me that job. And that got me that job. But my point is that there's two systems in the world and the in the entertainment world, there's the studio or big company system, and then there's the independent. So it all depends on how you go. I look. I don't want to hustle for the next 20 years. Doing everything myself. I would want an indie film, chill, you know? Look, look, look what perfectly example is Joe Swanberg. You know, he busted his ass for 12 years, making his kind of movie, whether you like them or not irrelevant. He had an audience and he made his films and he was unapologetic and how he made them. One year he made six feature films. That was the one year he had to because he had to make money that year. So he had an output deal with IFC and that was the way he did it. And then all of a sudden, he found a deal with nothing. He found a home at Netflix, where now he's he's now starting is finishing up a second season. I think it comes out a few weeks of his series easy. Excited. I love I love that show, too. I love that show and that he did in between that he did a feature with with Jake London. In London, right. They've got Johnson Johnson, Jr. Yeah. You're thinking of the guy from drinking, but he's dazed and confused. Yes, yes. Yes, yes. So, but he's got a home now. They're the duplass brothers. How home now at Netflix,

Matt Enlow 50:01
but I would argue that those guys like Joe Swanberg, even though he didn't get into the studio system, because the studio system was not interested in his type of movie necessarily. But he got into Hollywood like you look at the cast of his films, like you know, from the very beginning, they're like these top Hollywood actors because he was

Alex Ferrari 50:21
the very beginning, not for the first 1520 movies. How many movies is he made? 30 features Yeah,

Oren Kaplan 50:27
he's made a bunch of movies are 70 didn't have no Nobody. Nobody gave him basically drinking buddies. That was

Alex Ferrari 50:35
like his movie. And that was a really No, no, no, he hit No, he did something prior to drinking buddies. But do plus do plus was in one of his first big ones, but he was still just duplicate. And it was they were both nobodies at the time. Other than that, he was just there was the app man, he had no big stars. And I clearly

Oren Kaplan 50:53
don't have my info correctly. But the point is, your point still stands though, because he just got in bed with IFC at the right time.

Alex Ferrari 51:00
Yeah. And that was a moment in time and that left and he was left IFC changed ownership or whatever. And that deal he had went away.

Matt Enlow 51:08
But my point is that he didn't make movies that like, reached a niche market in the Midwest. He wasn't on Google Trends, figuring out what to do what he wasn't worrying about distribution, he was making. Stuff that he connected with, and and eventually, he found famous actors that also

Alex Ferrari 51:27
I'm gonna, I'm gonna because I've studied Joe a lot, so I have not enough. I'm gonna I'm gonna disagree with you a little bit. The way Joe worked on getting his stuff done is he wholeheartedly was interested in distribution, because if he didn't understand distribution, he wasn't going to make any money. And with his kind of films, if you guys I'm sure you have seen some of his films, they're not for everybody. You know, as boss. There's a lot of balls. Yeah. And there's definitely some nudity. But the he all those movies that he did before he started making drinking buddies is still to this day, I think the biggest budget thing he did, which was a $350,000 budget, and his agents were they just was so hard to get that movie made with Olivia Wilde with was Olivia Wilde, Johnson Johnson and, and God, okay, Kendra, and Annika Kendrick? Yeah. Even with those stars, they were having trouble getting him a $350,000 to shoot it on 35 and they'll ball the wax.

Matt Enlow 52:30
We can get any of us can get 350 grand for those three names. You now so

Alex Ferrari 52:36
now but back then even then, you know, Anna wasn't? She was she was big, but she wasn't as big. She wasn't. I don't think Pittsburgh had come out

Matt Enlow 52:43
yet. Right? What's the movie in the George Clooney movie?

Alex Ferrari 52:47
She had, but that wasn't she wasn't bankable. You know, there's a difference between being a big movie. Sure. You're, you're an Oscar nominated actress. That's all nice and dandy. But do you sell foreign? Yeah, that's the again, we're back to business. So if you don't understand these basics, it's difficult to you know, I think only I don't think you need a PhD in this stuff. Because I definitely don't have a PhD in it. We have to understand the basics of it. But that's how Joe got going. He I think he didn't do anything. I don't even know what number drinking buddies was sure. But I think it was like 2523 out of the 30 years something like that was up there for sure. Right. So it so all of that time he was self distributing or finding distribution for his movies in any place he could because the self distribution avenues weren't open back then because those things didn't exist. But he sold to IFC, he sold to a few other you know, in the he was really like, when you think indie he's in that in the indie was he got into Sundance, Sundance rejected him, mostly. and South by Southwest is what blew him up South by Southwest found one of his first few features like that was like, yeah, South by Southwest, again, a moment in time where it was like it was the mumble. It was the mumble core moment when mumble core became a thing it was because that year, I think, I don't know if it was puffy chair was at South by or not. But it was tiny furniture and you know, all of those, those and he was one of them. And they call that mumble core. And that's how he got lost. So he was at the right place right time. But prior to that moment, he had already done 1520 movies shooting on VHS, you know, no, you know, no sound than Gary and I just shot whatever, you know, the GoPro would have been fine for him, you know, total, just editing it on like iMovie. You know, and that was fine for him. But that was his style. And that was the style of the whole mumblecore movement. But they were and he said it very clearly once like if I can't be taken seriously, as a filmmaker, at least I'm going to be prolific. And that's exactly what he did. So now he's at a point in his career where he's got a deal. He's got output deal. He's doing series, and he has complete creative control. And he has budgets. He's he his big thing was getting into the DGA, because he needed insurance for his family. I mean, he's and if you ever watch that South by Southwest keynote that he did, or do you see that it's in saying like he tells you the real truth about what it's like being an independent filmmaker financially. So in my opinion, I do think you do need to know some of it. Because if you don't you will even if you're working within the studio system, if you don't have a basic understanding of it, you will get screwed at one point or another. Right? Well, I think orange doesn't.

Matt Enlow 55:20
That's not that you I don't disagree. I don't think there's a right or wrong, I guess there's like just thinking out loud here that there's kind of two strategies as a filmmaker, you can basically make what you want keep making stuff. And, you know, thinking about distribution, and like the Joe Swanberg method, or whatever your time, I just keep making things and get them to as many people as possible, whether you're building a following on YouTube, or whether you're going to a lot of film festivals or whatever. So that's strategy one, and the strategy two, is make something that someone in Hollywood will really like and want to hire you to do that same thing again, but for more money without you having to worry, man.

Oren Kaplan 56:01
Yeah, I guess that's the same strategy, though. I think the the differences is that in the circumstance where you make the following, and no one cares, then you distribute it and you try to figure that out or whatever. And then you make you have to make momento before somebody cares. But

Alex Ferrari 56:16
without following there is no moment. Exactly.

Matt Enlow 56:19
Right. So when you say you have to make them momento, yeah, yeah, noose and the fall momentum, no momentum. Okay.

Oren Kaplan 56:28
You have to make momentum to make. Right, yeah, but so you get what I'm saying, though, it's like, I don't think that either, you have to do both at the same time, right? Like, you can't try and make a movie that's for Hollywood. And in the same way that you kind of can't make an art movie for an audience in a certain sense. You just have to make what you want to make. Be true to yourself, be true to your voice, and like, make it as good as you can. And then if, if Hollywood comes knocking great, and if not, you still know how to make money off of your movie. So you can make another one, right.

Alex Ferrari 57:01
I mean, like, the The point is that if you go down the road, and you go down this, it's a very slippery slope, by the way, trying to make something to get Hollywood's attention, take it from someone who was trying to do it for almost a decade. It is a very slippery slope, where you put all your hopes and dreams into this one project, that someone magically will come from the mountain Hollywood and anoint you as a director. That is also very, very, you gotta be real careful with that. Because you know, as well as I do, you can't kind of do that. Like you can make something that's super amazing. And but if you're aiming it is specifically to impress somebody in Hollywood, it's, a lot of times it feels I've been in agents offices, you know, sitting there and the like, and they saw my short film, and they got me into the office. But they're like, hey, look, these are, and they showed me like five other shorts, from guys around the world who they are amazing. Never heard of them. You guys have never heard of them. But they did amazing stuff. And I was like, wow, how Why didn't those guys pop? If I'm here, why not? And then why did I, you know, get to where I want to go from it. Where after doing this so long, from my point of view, at least, if you if you continue to create content that you're true to, if you do it on a budget that you can afford, or either find money to do ads on a smaller budget and just keep producing those. If you're a guy who has five feature films, and they've all made money in one way, shape, or form, somebody will give you money to make another movie. So and you look at and I'll use Joe as a perfect example. Because look, you know, you look at some of Joe's early work, some of it's unwatchable, and I'm a fan of Joe's, but some of his early stuff was really unwatchable, because that was a kind of filmmaker he was doing at the time, because that's all he had access to, you know, and a lot of people are really turned off by his work, but he didn't give a crap. Like this is the kind of work I want to do. And I'm going to keep doing it. And I'm going to make my $2,000 movies. And I'm just going to keep going down this road. And eventually someone's and that's exactly what he did. He became he's to the edge like you know, you don't get your first big break until May 22 features.

Matt Enlow 59:02
So it's just a point of view. But I guess continuing to play my demo. Do you think that the type of films you want to make like look, Joe Swanberg makes kind of these edgy or sexy character pieces that take place in small towns and houses and apartments and that's his niche. Yeah, right. If you want to make a big visual effects monster movies, you're going to make a magical $20,000 you know, well it all depends if look I mean to make to be taken seriously, I

Alex Ferrari 59:32
guess well look, look at 500 Days of Summer. I mean that's not it's small movie. No, but it's well how much was that movie?

Oren Kaplan 59:39
I don't know that 500 Days of Summer is like a good example of how to get Spider Man after that right because that's what you're going yeah, I think you that it's commercials and music videos or the the

Alex Ferrari 59:51
commercials in the media commercials or musically that didn't get him that job. 500 days of software did the other stuff was kind of like oh, and he's also got

Matt Enlow 59:59
ads and it's all So Zoey Deschanel and Joseph Gordon Levitt and yeah, but I've seen movies that with with big stars, that doesn't matter. I mean, the story has to be good. It has to be I mean, it's not $100,000 movie.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:09
No, it's not $100,000 movie. It was a few million dollars. It was a it was a Fox Searchlight phone Right, right. So I'm probably gonna

Matt Enlow 1:00:15
get a film. I'm gonna probably say it was 5 million or below seven and a half million,

Alex Ferrari 1:00:19
seven and a half million. Alright, so that was a fairly decent budget back in the day when there was those kind of budgets or I had a movie.

Matt Enlow 1:00:27
That was Fox street light switch like don't know exactly. Who was the director of Tron. Joseph Kaczynski, he did Halo camera. David Fincher, Deborah was getting offered these Halo commercials. They were with the same management company. He's like, well, I can't do them. But check out this guy Joe Kaczynski. It's a hell of a hell of a nice boy. And by the way, tron is pretty bad. And so is oblivion. Yo, you know what's good, though? The Trump pinball machine.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:58
But the point is that visually he I did like them visually, both those he was a very visual director. But story wise, it didn't work as well. You know, I really wanted to like Tron so wanted to like draw, give that pinball machine a shot. But But yeah, there are those stories of these directors who get these big movies. But I think those are again, those shot in the dark lottery ticket things.

Matt Enlow 1:01:22
It's more of the grind of building it slowly. from someone who's tried to go that hack the system, and make that one thing that blows you up or gets the right attention. That's a dangerous place to be because you could keep doing that for a decade. And But you see, like, there's I feel like there's more. I know Josh Trank is like this weird example. But he made Chronicle right, that was his first movie, then he got fantastic. fornia was supposed to do Star Wars. You see, even like a Ryan Johnson or Ryan coogler. Who does, you know, Fruitvale Station then crean then Black Panther, like, like you see a lot more of those examples, or at least we hear about, but more than just one station,

Alex Ferrari 1:02:05
what was the budget on

Matt Enlow 1:02:06
that? Probably 1 million or some right then from there, he

Alex Ferrari 1:02:09
went to creed. And why 10 million and why did he get created because he wrote that idea. And he came and he pitched it the sly,

Matt Enlow 1:02:15
right? And he didn't he I wasn't even into it until after Fruitvale Station,

Alex Ferrari 1:02:19
right? So he had to hustle that second job. And he had the he had the access because of Fruitvale Station. But that could have easily gone nowhere. And then from there, that was such a big hit. They're like, Oh, wait a minute, we need someone to do Black Panther. He would be there. And boom, it's just the luck

Matt Enlow 1:02:34
of but instead of spending a year distributing Fruitvale Station he spent that year hustling sliced alone, you know what I'm saying? He wrote he wrote the script rather than

Alex Ferrari 1:02:45
learning about everything everyone has. Everyone has different paths. Yeah, of course. It's a path. Look, I would much rather make a movie for a million dollars and let someone else distributed for me, but he was at a different level. Coming out the gate. Where do you go to school? By the way? Yeah. Yeah, I thought, bro. Yeah, I thought so. So there's a big difference from USC grads that come out because I know a bunch of USC grads and there's a connection and there's, there's, you know, it just there's a you pay for you earn the money you spend at that school you get back. Well knock on wood to a certain extent. Not everybody in your class. I'm sure it's your wedding director. Yeah. I've spoken at USC many times I see the students there. It's a you know, it's amazing. But anytime people ask me about film school, they're like, should I go to film school? I'm like, Well, yeah, it's cool. You know, in but you can anything you need to learn about filmmaking. You can learn now by yourself. But I'm like, well have an opportunity to go to USC, I'm like, can you afford it? Yes. Then go. The connections you'll make it will set you up for your career. And it's the truth. I mean, you're USC grad. And but you still have to hustle. You still have to hustle. There's no question. But you're hustling here. Or you're hustling here. You know, like, it's a lot easier to hustle out of being a grad at USC than being a grad at Broward Community College in Florida.

Matt Enlow 1:04:05
You're plugged into a network of people that are really committed to succeeding I think that's the difference. Yes. The other thing that I have spent a lot of money or investing a lot of money to succeed got

Alex Ferrari 1:04:14
a court you know, quote unquote, the cream of the crop, if you will, and a lot of ways you know, even Spielberg got rejected. Yeah, I will say this. I love USC.

Oren Kaplan 1:04:26
I don't think that the quality of student is that much higher, quote unquote, than any other dedicated film program. Honestly, I think I think that like, there's like money and like some book smarts for sure. Like the test scores are like, incredible. But in terms of commitment, which is kind of the main thing and resilience as as battle tested as any other program.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:52
But the thing is that there's a network, there's a connections that you make, and you know, that's also

Matt Enlow 1:04:56
based in LA which makes things very easy. When you've got the guest speakers that you have coming in talking to you now, man, that doesn't matter you could like

Alex Ferrari 1:05:05
things are still pretty cool. Yeah,

Oren Kaplan 1:05:07
super cool. Cool. I know I you know I was there's a class Thunder Mountain teaches a class there that's very shareable but it's all just movies that are gonna be out in two weeks and then the director comes in toxin. That's incredible, but that's $4,000 class. You know what I mean? Like, that's insane to do, right when you could go to the DGA, and just like, wait in line and go see the same commerce director and conversation exactly right.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:33
There's always ways around it. If you can afford film school, it's a wonderful thing if you need someone to kind of set it all up for you and teach you that way. Great. But if you can hustle it yourself. There's so much information on YouTube. There's so many online courses I was just watching. You know the masterclasses? Sure. I have early access to the Ron Howard one. And I sat there watching today watching Ron Howard direct the scene from frost Nixon and my mouth was on the floor I was just like just watching him and whether you like his movies or not, you know I always liked this movies.

Matt Enlow 1:06:09
masterclasses are worth it. Yes always like

Alex Ferrari 1:06:12
depends on which ones thumbed, some are good some are not like Aaron Sorkin's I thought was really great. If you want to get into TV writing, Shonda Rhimes is amazing. Werner Herzog's I enjoyed, but there's a lot of like, it's explained. Yeah, I keep paying for these. Oh, are you paying for all of them? I've paid for some of them, but I thought it was just subscription. Now it just turned into joy. I see. So now you have access to all of them for like a buck 80 a year. That's it. So it's not that bad. And you get access to the $180 $180 so you get access to their entire 26 lessons. So the I'm still paying off USC. But I also just saw Martin Scorsese's and that was amazing. But the Ron Howard one I just sitting here watching him direct the scene. And this like, you know, and you're sitting there as the director and I see what he puts up. I'm like, that's not gonna work. That's not gonna cut and then you're like, God dammit, he's good. You know, you can see that tats invaluable. Like that's much better than having some guy come in to the letter mountains class. Yeah, you know, so those things are accessible to us. Like we wouldn't have killed to have Martin Scorsese talk to us. For two and a half, three

Matt Enlow 1:07:21
hours. We used to have to watch the director's commentary, right, which is, which was that was what I on LaserDisc

Alex Ferrari 1:07:25
that's what I had it on the laser just before the DVDs came out. I had the raging bull $125 criteria. Hey, man.

Oren Kaplan 1:07:33
I hope you still have it. I do very cool. I still have it. I have Casa Blanca. back. Yeah. Excellent. That's a real talk about street cred right there. Oh, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:43
Some old school songs are endorsing all this geeky stuff. probably start rapping. We can keep talking for another day forever, and jump into our unpaid endorsements section. Okay. Oren, you want to take it away. You got something? Yeah, I'm gonna endorse the worst thing. But I did see lady burn. And I know it's probably gonna be up from mine Oscars and how was it? I loved it. I don't know. It's just like so that way that Matt talked about Helen highwater, when he endorsed that that was such a good, it's like, it's, I mean, obviously, very, very, very different. actually didn't even really like Helen highwater that much. But there's something just so simple about the setup. And just like, really amazing performances. In the very first scene of the movie, you find out who the characters are, what their relationship is, and what they want, you know, and then, when you see them either getting or not getting it. It's like, makes you cry by the end of the movie, you know, and it's a comedy. It's hilarious, too. But the you know, the lead actress who nobody can say her name, sir, show Ronin, or whatever. She's doing, like an impression of Greta gerwig. She's Irish, but she's like, plays this like girl from second unit.

Oren Kaplan 1:08:57
I'll take some notes about my childhood. But I think that maybe a different part of town that I grew up in.

Matt Enlow 1:09:04
Well, that's part of what the shows like she's from kind of the wrong side of the tracks. But I'm looking forward to seeing that one I want to see that was great. So so check it out. And just, it's a good one to just study and how simple a story you can tell. And I think we already endorsed the meyerwitz story. Yeah, Paul did want to see that is that but it's free. It's awesome. I mean, if you have Netflix, you can watch it. And it's um, it's of a similar genre, but it's another example. That one's like a little more complex of a story directed it. I mean, yeah, you know, but there you can see why they're a good couple. And think they're like a good double feature if you watch them on separate nights.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:45
One thing I just finished watching yesterday, actually, do you guys watch the net? You watch the Marvel stuff on Netflix like daredevil and

Matt Enlow 1:09:54
Jessica Jones, what do you think? I love Jessica Jones. She's great. It was a great series. But I heard Punisher was really good I just finished watching punish. Oh, you got into it's the best one of the bottom Really?

Alex Ferrari 1:10:04
Oh cool without question. And the reason why I love that so much was it is the most grounded out of all of them? Because it's just like two dudes there's no superpowers there's no nothing it's just like straight up. And the way the story is intertwined with the backstory of the villain and how the villain becomes the villain and how that's all connected the villain. I don't want I don't wanna spoil it. It's not like a known thing. That's not No, it's not straight. you're figuring out who the villain is along the way, you won't know who the villain is, I think until like, you know, eight episodes in or something like that. So it keeps you on your toes the entire time. He actually wears the skull I think three times in the entire series. So it's all just him. You know his backstory building it up. It's just so and he's in this What's the name of the actor? Oh, God, john guy from walking dead. Yeah, I guess I movie? Yes, yes. Yeah, he is. Oh, he was a baby driver, too. wasn't he? Oh, yeah. Whatever as well. He's amazing. JOHN. Something I can't say his last name. But it's if if you're even remotely interest

Matt Enlow 1:11:11
now we'll watch it we're like so my wife and I it's pretty violent. Oh, when he shows Oh, it's really catching

Alex Ferrari 1:11:18
up on that's what we were just talking about. Look at all the content that we have

Matt Enlow 1:11:20
just been at all curbs he's a nine. Yeah,

Oren Kaplan 1:11:23
well, I might I can help you out or and with my endorsement, which is just the pilot episode because the rest of the series hasn't been created yet. For love you more which is the Amazon you know, they always do their pilot seasons where they supposedly we vote on whether or not a show is coming back. But I have a hunch that they've already decided if it's you already, but love you more is Bridget efforts. New Series. It's great to see. So Bridget Everett, you would know her from she was in patty cakes, which didn't do great but she's in train wreck. She's kind of like a New York kind of cabaret comedy person who's been around forever. And she would at the end of every show. She's in lady dynamite as well if we're talking about like shows, but she was always at the end. Oh, yeah. Amy Schumer. Yeah, every Amy Schumer season this like she was the final sketch. Anyway, she's got her own show on Amazon Prime called love you more. It's like in this realm of like grounded comedy kind of slice of life stuff. But I just found it to be really like raw and funny and emotionally true. And also really like over the top in ways that are awesome and incredible. And I was super excited to eight is a very adult show. You see not for the faint of heart. You see some D in the very first scene so like spouse Yeah, yeah. Nice. Yeah, stoked. I guess technically. It's the second thing anyway. Love you more on Amazon. You're watching amazon prime. So Alex Yes, so much for hanging out man,

Alex Ferrari 1:12:57
you man for having me guys. how can listeners learn more about you? Where can they find you? And they can find me at indie film hustle calm. You can find me on iTunes as well for my podcast and on YouTube. I just type in any film hustle anywhere on computers on a computer with me. Should I ask Siri?

Oren Kaplan 1:13:19
You love asking Siri well and where it's asking about

Matt Enlow 1:13:21
Indie film hustle. Alright, well well series. You can follow me at Matt Enlow and you can follow our show at just shoot a pod and I am at mighty pilot and Alex is at indie film hustle.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:36
I had a ball talking to those guys and please definitely check out their podcast at justshootapodcast.com there are a lot of fun man and I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. It was a lot of fun going down to their place and recording kind of live with actual people in the room, which I rarely get to do. I'm usually doing everything over the internet so it's been so it was actually fun to have a energetic conversation about the film industry. So hope you guys liked it. If you want the Show Notes for this episode, just head over to indiefilmhustle.com/206 and as always keep that also going keep that dream alive and I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 205: How to Pitch Your Screenplay in 60 Seconds with Michael Hauge

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You walk into an elevator and just before the door closes Steven Spielberg gets on. You have 60 secs to pitch him your latest screenplay. What do you do? Your goal is to have your audience say “yes, I understand, and I care” after reading or watching your brand story.

If your audience just says “now I know” then you have successfully informed them but not enough to make them care, to make them stay to whatever you have to say next. Your career can be made in 60 seconds – if you make the right pitch!

Today’s guest is returning champion Michael Hauge. He is the best-selling author of Writing Screenplays That Sell (now in its 20th Anniversary Edition) and Selling Your Story in 60 Seconds: The Guaranteed Way to Get Your Screenplay or Novel Read. 

According to Will Smith,

“No one is better than Michael Hauge at finding what is most authentic in every moment of a story.” – Will Smith

We discuss pitching techniques, the pitch story arch, and much more. After partnering with Michael on the best-selling Udemy Screenwriting course Screenplay and Story Blueprint: The Hero’s Two Journeys I wanted to work with him again. We came up with the NEW online course Pitching Your Screenplay or Novel in 60 Secs (Click here for an EXCLUSIVE Discount). 

Enjoy my conversation with Michael Hauge.

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Alex Ferrari 0:30
Today on the show we have returning champion Michael Hague, Michael Hague, if you guys are not aware, is a string, screenwriting consultant and overall screenwriting guru that has been on the show before in Episode 55. And he has written many books but the must have on every screenwriter shelf is writing screenplays that sell, which is a mandatory reading for any screenwriter out there. And Michael and I partnered on a online course called the screenplay and story book blueprint, the heroes two journeys Where is with Michael and Chris Vogler, the author of the writers journey, and that is easily one of the best selling online courses we've ever done. And I wanted to have Michael back on the show because today we're going to talk about how to pitch your story in 60 seconds. And Michael wrote an entire book specifically called selling your story in 60 seconds. So whether you're a screenwriter, a filmmaker who's trying to sell their or not sell their story, but pitch their story to somebody who you want to be in the movie, or, or be part of your movie, an investor, an agent, an actor, a crew member, that you want to get to work on the film. This is very, very important and obviously very important for screenwriters trying to pitch their stories to producers, and studios. And we also have, of course, an online course that Michael and I worked on. And we'll have a special discount for you at the end of this episode. But in this conversation, I was able to weasel out as much information out of Michael as possible for you guys to really understand how to pitch your story in 60 seconds like a pro. So without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Michael Hauge. I'd like to welcome back to the show, Michael Hauge, Michael, thanks so much for coming back on the show.

Michael Hauge 3:18
Oh, my pleasure. It's great to be back.

Alex Ferrari 3:20
You know, your your your episode was probably one of the most downloaded episodes in the history of indie film hustle. Just because it was one of the early ones. I think I don't even remember what the number was. I think it was like 20 or 30. We're now getting we're closing in on 200 episodes. Soon. Yeah, I'm busy. And but that episode was very well received, and the course that that we partnered on the heroes two journeys, the story, storytellers blueprint has done extremely well. And a lot of listeners have taken that course. So thank you so much for coming back and just sharing your knowledge.

Michael Hauge 4:00
Oh, absolutely. And congratulations. I didn't realize the number have gotten that high. But it's an honor to be back. And and I'm looking forward to talking about this because this is this is a significantly different topic than the other one. This is in the selling arena rather than the creating arena.

Alex Ferrari 4:16
Exactly. Exactly. Because, you know, I brought you back because we're going to talk about pitching. And I think that's a mystery for a lot of filmmakers, screenwriters, people in general, they just don't understand how to pitch and it's such an important skill. So we kind of put together wanted to kind of dig into, you know, a lot of the stuff that you work on on your book, which is called selling your story in 60 seconds, and I wanted to get into it. So what is a 62nd pitch exactly?

Michael Hauge 4:45
Well, this is a pitch that one would give either a novelist or screenwriter would give or in this case screenwriter primarily when they have a very short amount of time number one And they have one goal and one goal only. And that is to get somebody to read their script. Or if you're a filmmaker in another arena to get somebody to look at your short film or your piece of work that you want to use as a sample, but as opposed to say, a pitch meeting in Hollywood, once you reach a certain Echelon, you might be invited to sit down in an agent's office, sit down in a production company's office, and discuss your screenplay or discuss your idea for a script. That's all well and good. But you're never going to get to that meeting, until someone has read your script. And they're not going to read your script unless you know a persuasive way to get them to take a look at it. So this is all about just that, will you take a look at this and read it? And then my script will stand on its own? If you'll only take a look?

Alex Ferrari 5:48
Right! So it's basically the elevator pitch, if you will.

Michael Hauge 5:51
Yeah, if you're going to a very high floor. elevator, 60 seconds to get up there. Yeah, I mean, the 60 seconds is not a precise shirt. But there's another context where it's not just elevator, but it's a phone call. But also, if you go to a pitch Fest, or a pitch Mart or if you're going to a writers conferences, screenwriting conference, and you're just have the opportunity to corner someone who has a degree of power in Hollywood, who's in the business, in the hallway or something. And and you can say, you know, I'd love to tell you about my script. Or sometimes if you're just schmoozing with someone in that context, they'll ask you, well, what am I working on, you can't take 10 minutes of their time to talk about all the nuances and details of your masterpiece, you've got to do it in a very short period of time. But in the 60 seconds, you can give someone enough information about the script that they can decide whether or not they want to read it. But you want them to decide yes or no based on an understanding of what the promise of it is. And not because they don't you, you told them, the start of it, and nothing more, because that's all you have the time for.

Alex Ferrari 7:06
Now, what are the top reasons why pitches go wrong?

Unknown Speaker 7:11
Well, to me without question, the number one mistake that screenwriters make when they're pitching their project is, no matter how short the time span, they try and tell their story. And you just simply can't do that I see sometimes, if you've got a screenplay for a movie, and that, that you can tell the story in 60 seconds, then you've got a story for a 62nd film, because that's, that's what you're trying to do. You're trying to squeeze them, this is how it opens. And this is who the characters are. And then this happens. And then all at once a body is found. And then now we're and if you're at a pitch mark, where they say you've got, say 10 minutes, and you go longer than that, they're just going to take you away and you won't even finish, sometimes you're only given five minutes. But the thing to remember is even five minutes is too long when you have a five minutes like because you've got to have some time left after you pitch it. So the the prospective buyer of that script can talk about it and ask you questions, and find out the details that they want to know not the details that you thought were so critical to put in the pitch.

Alex Ferrari 8:23
Now, how do you target buyers and target people who might be interested in either buying your script? or watching your film or even giving you money for your film? How do you target buyers?

Michael Hauge 8:35
Well, what you want to basically do is you want to follow in the footsteps of people who have been successful at marketing and selling or getting scripts option that are similar to yours. similar meaning not they have the same plot, but they're in the same genre. They have the same general budget. If yours is a period piece, you want to find out well, who who has produced period pieces in the past if it's a horror film, who are the companies pursue, you know, making horror films. So the way you can do that the number one resource I always recommend is the Internet Movie Database imdb.com except that for a very small amount of money, you can get a subscription to IMDb pro.com. And when you have the pro it means let's say let's say you've written a horror film, okay, and you want to find out well who is making or who has made horror films recently that have been successful. And you find out that this Friday jigsaw opens which is kind of a spin off on saw series. Okay, so you can go to imdb.com on your computer, and you can just put the search on jigsaw, and it will have pages or a lot of screens worth of information, the title, the name of every character and who plays that care. After the name of all the cast and crew, but here's the thing, it'll also list say, the producers and the production companies involved, not the studios. And we can explain that in a second. But you check out what are the who are the producers and the production companies, then if you have the pro version, which is, as I say, a minimal investment, then you can click on them, and they will give you contact information. So it will you will then find out Well, this is the address and this is the phone number of this production company. And so then what you do either in that entry, or by calling the office, you find out who is the development director, or the head of development, or the story editor, whatever the title is, who's in the business, who has the job at that company of getting scripts into the company, find out that person's name, and then you you call them cold or you send an email, you can send a letter, but letters aren't really, they're kind of passe.

Alex Ferrari 11:00
Right! It's like sending a fax.

Michael Hauge 11:02
Yeah, you can do a fax, that's still somewhat doable. But whatever it is, you want to try and track that person down, and get them on the phone. And guess what you're going to do if you can get through to them and have them on the phone in their busy schedule. And they're only going to give you 60 seconds, Guess how you're going to use it, you're going to give them your 62nd pitch.

Alex Ferrari 11:26
Now, can you discuss the seven steps of a great 67? Great 66/62? pitch? No, because there's a well then there you go. What are the eight?

Michael Hauge 11:40
Yes, I can. So here's here's how to look at it. A pitch is four steps of preparation, and four steps of presentation. So there are four things to do to get ready to give the pitch. And then four things you need to do to actually give the pitch when you're on the phone or across the table at the pitch fest or whatever the situation might be. So the first four steps of preparation. Number one, you need to you need to review all of these steps begin with I apologize in the background here a more my next door neighbor has to guard Yes, yes. I know where else coming to Los Angeles? Yes. No. worries, you know,

Alex Ferrari 12:39
If there was just one thing I could do in my lifetime is to find a way to get rid of those.

Michael Hauge 12:46
Oh, I know. It's just they make they contribute to noise and philosophy. exactly same time. Okay. So back to the issue at hand. Step number one is review. That means you will look at the story of your screenplay through a particular AI. And what you're looking for are the key elements of that story that your potential buyer needs to know to make the decision of whether they want to see it. So this is instead of telling the entire story, you're going to present your pitch in such a way that you reveal these, these things. So I what I need to do now if it's okay, as I should go through the list of what those keys go for. Okay, so I'll make it very quick. And then taking the course, of course, I go into detail of all of them. But here's what a potential buyer wants to know. First of all, who is the hero of the story? Who is the protagonist? Who are we rooting for? Next of all, where is that character at the beginning of the story before anything extraordinary happens when we are first introduced to that character? What are they doing? What's their job? What's the setting? What's their life? Like? What has their life been like for some time? It's the introduction of that character. Number three, why do we care about this person? Do we feel sorry for her? Do we? Is she in some kind of Jeopardy? Is she a good hearted time person? So she's likable? Is she very skilled, any of those qualities could create empathy, but you have to create, you have to let us know why we will connect with this character as we watch her on the screen. The fourth thing is what's the opportunity, that's my turn for the first key event of the story that is going to start moving forward. It's something that happens to the hero about 10% of the way into the script that has never happened before and is going to get them moving forward moving towards into some new situation. So the next thing is what where is that new situation? So it may be they start out in their home and then they find out they're going to inherit some money. So now they're going to move to they have to go to England and collect the inheritance or if Luke Skywalker starts off on his planet, and then he sees the the holograph, from Princess Leia, and that's gonna take him into a new situation where he'll meet Obi Wan and so on. Next point that you want to establish is, what's the hero's goal. This isn't just a situation, this is the visible finish line that this character needs to cross at the end of the movie. So is this a movie about stopping a serial killer, is that a movie about stopping in invade is about when the love of another character is about winning a competition or escaping from danger. But whatever it is, it needs to be visible and specific and have a clearly defined endpoint. So what is that? Next? What is the conflict? What are the big obstacles the hero is going to have to overcome to accomplish that goal? If it's the King's speech, the goal is to give a speech, but the obstacles are what make it enjoy it, you know, emotional and enticing, and that is he's got a terrible stammer he's going to have to take over his king, he's got to lead his country into World War Two. That's that's the conflict. The next item is the plan. We need to know Well, okay, so how is the hero going to go about stopping the alien invasion or winning the love of the other character. And finally, and this is not within the story, but it's something important to think about, what are a couple antecedents to your script. So what you want to do is in the pitch you're going to convey, or you're going to mention a couple of movies that you could point to and say, Well, those two movies made money. So mine is likely to make money. It doesn't mean the plot is the same, it means they're in the same genre, they have about the same budget, they appeal to the same audience, they have a tone that's similar. Because there are romantic comedies that are dark, romantic comedies that are silly and romantic comedies that are fairly dramatic, you want to pick a couple antecedents that fit into the subcategory of yours. And that's it. I think that was nine qualities of the story that you're going to convey. Now, I haven't talked about how yet, because the class will reveal that. But whatever you're saying in the 60 seconds, you need to mention these things, because that's what's going to determine their decision. Oh, boy.

Alex Ferrari 17:30
Yeah, so another thing I think sometimes mistakes that I see too, as well, and I've done it in the past too, is when you pitch you when you when you compare it to another movie. They tell us a movie that was unsuccessful. Which was like, you know, my movies, just like Ishtar, like really? Suicide Squad all day like

Michael Hauge 17:54
Exactly. Yeah, you know, you don't really want to go there. You got to be careful. It needs to be somewhat recent needs to be with him correct with the lifetime of the person you're pitching.

Alex Ferrari 18:05
You start dating, you start dating.

Michael Hauge 18:09
And don't pitch Casablanca either. Even though you say it's a great movie, it's my favorite. It's not relevant. 10 years 10 years is a good time. But But the thing is that the mistake some people make in their pitches, they'll say, Well, this is this is like up Titanic and and King Kong.

Alex Ferrari 18:36
Oh, yeah, they combined.

Michael Hauge 18:38
Because well, like up, it has a talking dog. And like Titanic, it's a love story and whatever. And you can't do that they've got to be three, they've got to be two movies that that are in exactly the same genre. And and the more money those movies have made, the better it is. Because subconsciously, what you're doing to the buyer is you're you're saying without this is the subtext is, look, those movies made a lot of money. So obviously, you're going to be interested in my script, because it's going to make the same kind of money. Because you need to realize that in Hollywood, the people in power aren't necessarily story experts. But they do. They are good bean counters most of the time, and they know what box office success looks like. They don't know why it was a box office success, but they figured well, if this can be the next Titanic, I'm all for it. Right.

Alex Ferrari 19:33
Now, what are a few things that people should never do when pitching an idea?

Michael Hauge 19:40
Never Well, besides going on and on. Don't Don't tell the person hearing the pitch. how great the story is for it's going to be successful. Don't say this is going to appeal to the mass audience. Don't say this is this is going to be an earth shaking story. Don't make any comments or commentary or judgments about your own script, let the stories down on its own, let the pitch stand on its own. So if if this sounds like an emotionally involving commercially successful story or when that could be, they will conclude that for themselves, you don't need to say, and I mean, I've had people pitch me things that says, I swear this is going to be bigger than avatar. No, it's not going to be bigger than Avatar and our company probably isn't interested because that's not your job, it's my job to conclude that your job is to tell me just enough about your script that makes me want to read it.

Alex Ferrari 20:43
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. Now, how do you gear up for a pitch? Like what are the good things that you should bring into battle, if you will, with you besides the pitch?

Michael Hauge 21:05
My suggestion is nothing. Okay, very pointedly, or a bet. See, here's the thing, when you go to a pitch Fest, this happens a lot. They'll say bring a leave behind. So you have a one pagers, people bring treatments or something like that? Well, if they say that my advice is okay, go ahead and write a one page synopsis of the story. But here's what you don't do, you definitely don't put it on the table. As the pitch began, don't ever set anything in front of the person hearing the pitch. Because if you do, if you give them something to read, they'll be reading instead of listening to you, and you want them to pay attention to you. You can have it in your briefcase or backpack or whatever. And then if they say, Well, I really my boss insists that we take back an outline, then you can whip it out and say, Okay, good. Well, we have this. And sometimes I'll even recommend that someone when they asked that question, the writer say, Okay, look, I know you want to see a synopsis, but one page just won't do my script justice. How about if I email it to you, and you just read the first 10 pages. And if you don't like it went by page 10. Just trash it. Just delete it no harm, no foul. But if it pulls you in, as I know, it will, then you'll get a much better sense of what the value is. They still might say no, that's against the rules that our company and then if they insist give him the leave behind, but don't show it or anything else. There are people who recommend taking to a pitch things like pictures of actors who could play the role. I'm not I'm not a fan, because for two reasons. One, I personally am not a multitasker. So I'm either looking at a picture of Matt Damon, which means I'm thinking about Matt Damon, and thinking to myself, Matt Damon costs a fortune, we're not going to get Matt Damon for this script. So I'm losing interest by looking at that. And, and instead, you want to create a movie inside my mind, that's what you want me looking at. So you want to tell this pitch. And as you mentioned, these elements, I'm picturing this character, I'm picturing this setup, I'm picturing the obstacles that your hero face. So you want me in my head not looking at something else.

Alex Ferrari 23:29
Now, is there a big difference or a different approaches for pitching when you're pitching at a pitch fest versus a executives office versus an elevator?

Michael Hauge 23:41
Well, in the office, it's different because in the office, they are expecting you to come in ready to have a 10 to 20 minute conversation. What I often recommend in those situations is you can start that meeting by giving the 62nd pitch and then letting that be the doorway into a longer conversation. Many times though, when you go into an office meeting for a pitch, it's more about something they've already been pitched, or a script they've already looked at. And the purpose of the meeting is to discuss it. And that's a different animal altogether. The one thing is in a pitch Fest, you have a finite amount of time, but you've paid money to do it. And so they're expecting you to be there on an elevator in those, you know, grab them when you can moments, or even on a cold call. You always want to kind of ask permission you want to say Geez, I I'd love to tell you about the script I'm working on would this be a good time to do that or I don't want to intrude? Or when you get somebody on a cold call, you can say Look, I know how busy you are. But but I I I've just completed a script. I'm sure you know, it's something I really think you'd be interested in because because it's innocent. Same arena as this movie, you just, you know, did, or you mentioned something you have in common? Like, I know you're a graduate of University of Oregon and so am I. And I thought you might be willing to let me take 60 seconds. But you need to ask if it's okay to give the pitch, if it's an unexpected confrontation or connection, something like that. The the the one other difference in a pitch Fest, that's to your advantage is if you paid money for 10 minutes, you get 10 minutes. And one of the other reasons to have a pitch that's, you know, 60 seconds, or at least under two minutes is, then if they say no, and you have another project that might also be of interest, then you can say, well, we still have, you know, seven minutes left, or even if it's a five minute slot, and you only took take 60 seconds, she's only got four minutes left. And I have another idea that's for a romantic comedy. could could, would you be willing to let me present that to you right now. And so if you truly have two pitches ready, that's the only occasion where you'd pitch twice as if they say no to the first.

Alex Ferrari 26:13
Now, do you kind of touched upon it earlier? But do you have any specific advice on how to establish rapport with the person that you're pitching with?

Michael Hauge 26:21
Yeah, I kind of got I know, you asked me about the eight steps that I took. So long was step one, we got sidetracked. But anyway, it's, it's after you beer, your story and figure those things out, then then you want to research the person you're going to pitch pitch to, you want to write out and script the pitch, and you want to rehearse it, rehearse, rehearse, that's the preparation, the presentation is that that first star is rapport or relationship. And there are two ways that are very effective at doing that. One is finding a common experience. If you've been recommended to someone on the phone, then you want to say, you know, Bob said, I should give you a call, he thought you might be interested in this project. And he also said you're in a lunch or something like that. So you mentioned the person who's given you the referral. If it's a pitch Fest, or if it's a cold call, you don't know the person, but you do know that they're a golf fan. And you you know, you were a caddy for Tiger Woods once or you went to the same school, or, or you have something in common? Great. Now, that's not going to happen very often. I mean, really? How many of us know people that are in power in Hollywood? or most of us? If we,

Alex Ferrari 27:37
You, you do know a few people, sir,

Michael Hauge 27:39
I know. I don't, okay, I could, I could use an abacus to count them. I don't need to count. Okay, so then what you do to establish rapport is you acknowledge them for something. And it might be because you've researched them, you know, that they, like I mentioned earlier, suppose someone has made horror films, you can, you can say, you know, I was a huge fan of this of the ring, if they were produced will be, let's say, but don't just say that. Just say why say because it scared the crap out of me or because what I loved about that horror film was that that actually, it developed the relationship between the mother and center, don't just say, I'm a huge fan and let it go with that, because anybody can say that, but tell why you were a fan of the movie, or the or a movie that they represented the writer for or something like that. Now, a warning is when you go to a pitch Fest, it's possible, you won't know anything about who you're pitching to, or it's going to be an underling at the company. But you can always acknowledge someone for this if they're listening to your pitch, and that is they're taking the time to do it. So you can say something like, Look, you know, I know that you probably rather be doing something other than this pitch fest. But it means a lot to somebody like me, who flew here all the way from jerk water USA, just have a chance to talk to you and I want to tell you how much I appreciate it. And, and that should be genuine, you should really be grateful and no one on the planet is immune to an acknowledgement. It just creates a connection when you say I sincerely say I want to thank you for something you did. So that is probably your strongest tool for rapport.

Alex Ferrari 29:29
And can you continue with the rest of the steps after the report was the other ones of the eight or the eight steps?

Michael Hauge 29:35
Yeah, so the next one is I in the in our in my goal to make everything our sound like our which is the word right. The next is revealed this is when you actually give the pitch part of the pitch you reveal those nine elements of the story. And and I have a tip for that too. And that Is or a contrary and suggestion. A lot of people recommend the way to start a pitch is give the title and the logline and I strongly recommend against that, because titles until you know what a movie is about hearing the title is usually meaningless. I mean, it sounds ludicrous now because it's become part of the culture. But if you heard in 1974, that there was a or 72, before the book came out that there was a movie coming up called Jaws, you would have no idea what it was about. Right? Okay. But if you said it was about, it's about a great white shark, terrorizing the community, and now, three guys have to go out in a little boat and try and destroy it. And then you end that pitch by saying so my. So my screenplay and titled jaws is the story of three men trying to defeat a great white shark. So you put the title and the logline at the end of your presentation of those elements instead of at the beginning. And otherwise, it's pretty much going through them in the order I mentioned, a good way to begin might say it might be to tell them how you came up with the idea. So instead of just jumping in and saying, well, Susan Smith is a nuclear physicist, he say, I've always been a huge fan of, of thrillers that have strong love stories underneath. And here's where you can add movies like Three Days of the Condor, or trying to think of another or body, let's say, I'm dating myself with Yes. Because notice how now you're slipping in those antecedents without using the word Annecy, you're saying, I've always been a fan of movies like this, but in and so my thriller, The difference is that the the the man in the hair hero falls for is really a hitman who's been assigned to kill it. Okay, so you start with how you came up with the idea, it grew out of kind of movies you loved or grew out of a true story or something that happened to you in the past? And then you say, so I started thinking, What if, and then you get into the hero, and the setup and those other elements, and then you're sort of off to the races.

Alex Ferrari 32:18
It's so it's, it's when you're when you're doing that, it's because a lot of people I've seen pitch a pitch fest and and just pitch in general, they just kind of go right to it, they just jump right in. And just like, you know, it's like a machine and there's no warmth to it, there's no connection. They're just like, they're literally a robot because they've been trained to be that way. And they've rehearsed so much that it's literally just a machine where you're sitting down and making a connection with another human being. And by doing, what you're suggesting makes a lot more sense to me to like, how you came up with the idea and what movies you like, because that's another way to connect with the person you're pitching with. Like if they like the movie of three, you know, three days in a condor, like, Oh, yeah, I love that movie. Is it kind of like that? And it starts connecting different synapses in their mind and emotions already, before you even start pitching. Is that a fair statement?

Michael Hauge 33:08
Absolutely. Absolutely. I think the way to think about a pitch is it's not a speech. And it's not an ad, it's a conversation. Actually, it's a conversation that you and everyone listening to this has had before because all of us, and all of you have recommended movies to people. You said, Oh, I just saw the big sick. And what's that? Well, it's about this guy. And he's from Pakistan and got it done. You tell the high points and you say, I just loved it. And it was hilarious. But I love the relationship. You have just given a pitch for a movie you saw you've done it 100 times. We've had that conversation. All you're doing in a pitch meeting, or on the phone here is you're having a conversation about a movie you love. It's just a movie that hasn't been made yet.

Alex Ferrari 33:59
Now can you please impress upon people how important a logline is not in the pitch because you actually do it at the end. But just in general. People kind of forget the logline. They just write a sentence it's very it's it's an art in itself, isn't it?

Michael Hauge 34:15
Yeah, I guess I don't want to make it sound too lofty because it sounds something difficult. Sure What but but I think of loglines. This way, a logline is a sentence that's going to come to convey the three foundation elements of any story. And that is character, desire and conflict when I said and so jaws is a it's about a great it's about three guys and a small boat who have to stop a great white shark. That is that is terrorizing their the beach town. I didn't say it exactly that way because I don't remember exactly but that's it all. I was saying character, three guys in a boat goal destroy a great white shark conflict, it's a great way to jerk and it's terrorizing their their village and wants to kill them. Right? That's it, I it's not so much about honing some magic with words. It's nice if you can do that. But it's much more important that you say, character design or conflict. Because without knowing or saying those three things, anything else included is not going to give me an idea of what I'm going to go see. Now you can pick, you want to think about the exact words to create a vivid image of it or be very clear about it, you can add a phrase or two to make it distinct from other horror movies or about also stopping demons or creatures or whatever. But But the main thing and the reason a logline is valuable for you to formulate is it forces you to think about those three basic things in your script. And I swear I've read scripts and talk to people and heard pitches by people who don't really have never really thought about what's the goal, they just have this is about a person in a situation and then they do this, then they do that. And then this happens. And that happens. It's like but what do we want? What are we rooting for? So a logline forces you to identify those three elements.

Alex Ferrari 36:21
Now, in today's world, it's not only just about the feature film anymore, it's also about series, there's I think 450 series being produced this year alone. So what's the big difference between pitching a feature film versus pitching a series?

Michael Hauge 36:38
Well, on one level, it's not all that different. Because it's it's kind of the way I think of it is this you're pitching a series, but you're pitching it by detailing a lot of what would be in the pilot or the first episode of the series. Because that's when we meet the hero, that so that's when the hero is set up. That's when we first have to empathize. That's when whatever the opportunity is, that is going to drive that that whole series, if it's an ongoing story, like say, Breaking Bad or Game of Thrones, that opportunity has to occur to some extent in the first episode, because otherwise, nothing's happening, then it's just a one hour setup. If it's let's say you're pitching a more traditional series, you know, under the NCIS, or something like castle, okay, then you're just pitching a pilot, because you introduce the characters, and they have a goal that they have to accomplish at the end of that episode. So what you do is you think about that episode, and then you kind of expand say, so this is, so imagine these two people, a mystery writer and a woman cop. And when a body is discovered, and they're thrown together, now they have to solve the murder, and each week, and so you then connect it by saying, and each week or if it's an ongoing thing you say. So the overarching story is about a cop who has to stop a hitman from committing a series of murders in her town. That's, that's the series of Fargo. So if you take the first season of Fargo, the overarching goal is the cop has to stop the Hitman. And then, but then what you do is then the one thing you want to add is in so in one episode, this might be by hat might happen. But as but by the end of the first season, this will have happened. So you clearly convey that you've not just thought about three episodes, well, you've not just thought about the opening, but what the ongoing story is going to be and what some of the other characters are going to be woven through it. So I guess the answer would be there's some more detail to add. But you still want to make sure you hit those elements. And you still want to have seeds you still accept now you're going to get to pick feature films you're going to pick successful series that are similar.

Alex Ferrari 39:10
Now, is there? Do you have an example of a pitch that was that blew you away? Or do you remember one at all? I mean, I don't know. Probably not.

Michael Hauge 39:20
But I'm just asking. I didn't know there would be a test. Because to convey why it blew me away, I would have to really remember it and presented to you so I could find out this is this is all the the reasoning. In the class, I construct an example of a pitch that illustrates all of these things. But that's that's when I made up for a movie that's never been written just as an example. Got it. Um, but if I guess I guess I can't keep stumbling along and try and pretend I have any answer. You can say no, you can say that. Oh, it's great. I've heard great pitches, but I don't remember what they Exactly. So

Alex Ferrari 40:04
Now, do you have any final words of wisdom as far as pitching your story?

Michael Hauge 40:10
Yeah. We don't have time for okay. When people do sign up for the course, of course, I read the book, because there was all that. Let Oh, yes, I do. I do have one last thing I want to add. And that is, some is about a couple of things in terms of the presentation. And that is notes, and nervousness. Okay. When it comes to notes, I strongly recommend that you take note cards, and on those note cards in big letters with a, what do they What do they call that a, you know, Greenspan, they used to call it a sharpie, with a sharpie, you just write down keywords that will remind you of that step in your pitch. So it might be if how you got the idea is you're going to refer to two antecedents just write down the antecedents. And then card number two, is your so what if, in other words, it's not something you have to look at steadily, but you want to have that as a backup, even though you've rehearsed your, your pitch. By the way, what you absolutely never want to do is read somebody a pitch. When I coach people on their pitch, I won't let them read their pitch to me even when I'm coaching them, unless there's no other choice, because it is so hard to concentrate when someone's reading to you. You have to be ready to say it as a conversation. You have to be like an actor, after rehearse it so much that you can just make it natural, you can make it into a conversation. But notecards are good idea. Because if you have that backup, then you probably won't need to use it. The other thing is when it comes to nervousness, stop worrying about it or trying to think of a magic way that you won't be nervous, because you will be just accepting. Save yourself. Of course, I'm nervous. I'm not used to doing this. I'm meeting somebody, this is important to me, I they're in power, and I haven't met them before, etc. So of course, I'm going to be nervous. And here's what I would tell you I have worked in Hollywood now for more than 35 years. I've talked to a lot of executives, a lot of agents, I've heard them speak and I've had conversations. Never in my entire career Have I ever heard somebody say, God, I heard this great pitch this movie would make millions it's one of the best I've ever heard. Unfortunately, we're not going to option it because the writer was so nervous. Because they're right. To put it bluntly, they don't give a shit. Right? They are, they are there. Their job is find me a good story. They want your story to be good. They don't care one whit if you're nervous, if you stumble, if anything, they're looking for a story they can take back to their boss, put a feather in their cap if they if you if they can say you got to look at this because this is a terrific idea. This is the terrific story or the or they'll go back read the script, and then they'll say that. So take note cards, and don't worry about being nervous because it's not an issue.

Alex Ferrari 43:24
Michael, thank you so much for sharing a lot about pitching today. And I know again, it's such a mysterious art form and hopefully, the course that we're putting out called How to pitch your story in 60 seconds. And your book story. Please name your book again.

Michael Hauge 43:43
Okay, so it's tricky because there's, they sound the same. The story is selling your story in 60 seconds, right because the book is designed for screenwriters and novelists because they're both in the situation. I'm trying to get their material read. Our course is called pitching your screenplay in 60 seconds because the course is zeroing in specifically on screenwriters.

Alex Ferrari 44:06
Michael, thank you again, so much for being on the show. Again. It's an absolute pleasure as always talking to you my friend.

Michael Hauge 44:11
Yeah. And it went so fast. We probably we probably been talking for three hours that we're done. There's so much more to say I love hearing myself talk. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to listen to myself. My greatest joy.

Alex Ferrari 44:27
Thank you, Michael.

Michael Hauge 44:28
Okay, take care Alex

Alex Ferrari 44:30
Well, I hope you have a better idea on how to pitch your story or screenplay in less than 60 seconds after listening to Michael and his knowledge bombs he jobs. So thanks again, Michael, for sharing your knowledge as always. And as promised guys, I have a special discount for you guys. Normally we are selling the course at 175 bucks but because you're listening to this episode and you're part of the tribe, you get it for 12 dollars and it is well worth it guys. So all you got to do is go to indiefilmhustle.com/pitch60 that's indiefilmhustle.com/pitch60. And the number six, zero or 60. And that will give you a coupon code will take you directly to the course on Udemy. And if you guys have not taken the other course the story blueprint, the heroes two journeys by Michael and Chris, then I will have in the show notes, a link to that course with a special discount as well. The show notes are at indiefilmhustle.com/205. Now guys, I hope you are enjoying your holiday month in December, I have been a very busy be working on all this stuff that I'm putting together for you guys in January. And January is going to be epic. I can't even tell you starting off with the Ask Alex show, which will be 31 days. I don't know how I'm doing it. But 31 days on our YouTube channel where we'll be answering questions from the tribe. And it's it's pretty insane. That alone Not to mention all the craziness that we're going to be doing at Sundance, we're gonna be releasing a epic new course as well. Which I'll talk to you about in a little bit, but not yet. I'm just trying to give you guys as many tools as you can get for the new year and to get that new year 2018 start off right and following your dreams, getting that film made writing that screenplay and whatever I could do to help you. That's why I'm here so, so guys, thank you for listening. And as always keep that also going. Keep that dream alive and I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 204: Why Do You Want to Be a Filmmaker?

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Right-click here to download the MP3

On today’s show, I ask the simple question

“Why do you want to be a filmmaker or screenwriter?”

This single question is one of the most important questions you can ask yourself. Understanding the answer can set you up for success in your career or ultimate failure. It has taken me over 20 years to honestly answer that question and it has made all the difference in the world. I just wished I would’ve answered it in my 20’s and no my 40’s.

Enjoy and if you find value in this episode please share it with as many filmmakers, screenwriters, and artists you can.

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Alex Ferrari 1:15
So today's episode is going to be a special one, guys, because I'm here to ask you one question. And one question only to to kind of people listening to this podcast right now, to my filmmakers. Why do you want to be a filmmaker and to my screenwriters? Why do you want to be a screenwriter answering this question will set you up for your entire career. Because if you don't understand why you want to be a filmmaker, or a screenwriter, or tell stories, or even why you want to walk down this path, this very difficult path. I think that you have to really be honest with yourself and ask the simple question, why do I want to do this? And I'm not trying to dissuade anybody, I just want you. Because if you're listening to this podcast, and you're following what we do at indie film, hustle, that means there's something inside of you. There's something inside of you saying that I want to do this, but I want you to have a very clear idea of why you're doing it. Is it for fame? Is it for money? Is it for respect, is it because I think it's cool. Because all of those are not going to be good reasons. By the way, you will get destroyed in this industry. If you think you're going to get famous, you're going to be rich, you can add ton of respect. Accolades, people, I won't people like me, that's not why you should be in this business. In again, in my, in my example, and believe me, I've tried to leave the business at least three or four times in the course of the last 25 years, okay. And I actually left the business on the last on the last jump for a while, but I was miserable. And I saw my foot in it, but I was miserable, doing something else just miserable. And I only became content with myself. When I came back, I only became happy again, when I came back and and opened up indie film, hustle and started directing again and start doing more work again. But it's it's a tough journey. And the reason I want you to understand how important this question is, is, well, let me ask you this. Do you have something inside of you that doesn't let you sleep at night? is doing this being a filmmaker, being a screenwriter, something that just keeps you restless inside that you can't see yourself doing anything else? But doing this? If those answers are Yes, then you are in the right path. But you really need to figure out as early as you can. It took me a long time to figure it out. But you really got to figure out why. What you want out of this journey, what you're expecting out of this journey. Are you doing it because of an outcome? Or are you doing it because you love to do it? Is your goal to get it to get festival in awards? or anything like that? Or is it because you just want to make the art, make the film, write the screenplay that gets picked up and turned into a big movie? Just answer that question because that answer is what's going to drive you and keep that grind and keep that hustle going. Because if you understand the end, you understand the why you do what you do. Then you will be able to keep on hustling. And if you don't know the answer right away That's okay. It's all right. learn along the way, figure it out along the way. But I just wanted to plant the seed now, for you to start thinking about that question on your journey. Because look at the beginning of it, you're not going to figure it out at the very beginning of your career, you're not going to get it, maybe you will, maybe you're much better and much more ahead of the game than I was when I was 20. Or when I was 19, when I started this journey, okay, but at least start thinking about it, as you are discovering, the reason why you're doing this. It took me years to figure out what that y was. But I had something so deep inside of me so hard, like, he just would not let me sleep, it doesn't let me rest, that I had to keep going, I had no choice in the matter, the drive was so strong, that I didn't have a choice, honestly, in the matter, I just didn't have a choice. And, and I the why I figured out along the way. And maybe you who are listening right now have that drive, that same drive. Now that drive, if it's alive, after you've been doing it for 10, or 15 years, is the drive that's going to keep you going for the next 15 or 20. And you should not give up. And you should keep going. You need to find the reason why you do this. And keep in clarify it so clearly as soon as you can. Because if you are stuck, and I'm talking now to all the guys, and believe me, I was this guy, I was the angry editor, the angry post supervisor, you know, watching other films come through my doors. And I'm being really honest here, guys. And I would be angry because I'm like, why did that mF you know, why that mother get a million dollars? And I didn't? You know, why did that person get a series? Why is that person directing television, and I'm not. And I was always angry. And I would be it would eat me up alive. But then at the same time, the passion kept me going. So I was fighting within myself of how to like, I love this business. But I'm so pissed that I'm not where I want to be. And that's and that held me back for so long. And for so many years. And guys, I'm being real honest here. And this is, you know, as almost as honest, as Episode 88. Or I just ripped into everything and everybody. But I just felt that this is something I've seen so much. And I think this episode could do some real good in the world, and real good to the tribe. Because understanding why you're doing this is so important. You have to be clear about why you want to go on this journey. Why do you want to do this endeavor. And you have to be brutally honest with yourself about why you're doing this. Because as I've said in over 200 episodes now of this podcast, this shit is tough. It will bring you to your fucking knees. But it doesn't have to. If you love what you're doing, and you love the grind, and you've got that answer that why answered and Nothing hurts you. And you could just keep going. You love the journey, you love, the grind, the daily grind, because at the end, you know why you're doing this, and you've got your goal, you got the reason why you're going to just keep going and going and you're going to fall and you're going to fail, but you're going to keep going. And that's when you've succeeded. Because if you can make it in this business for 5,10,15,20 years and enjoy your journey, regardless of where you make it in the business. Regardless, you can shoot for the stars, you can shoot for the moon. And you know, I have very ambitious things I want to do in my directing career. But regardless of where that this path takes me, I'm going to enjoy the journey. And I'm going to joy, the daily grind of what I do every day. But I understand. And only in recent years. And honestly in the last year or so, I finally discovered my why it took me over 20 years to figure it out. Why I want to do this, why I want to keep going and I'm starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel for myself. You know and and I know that there's a lot of people listening right now, a lot of filmmakers la screenwriters, a lot of artists who are on this, this conveyor belt, this conveyor belt of of this business where you have to do it and you'll be driven to do it, but you don't you're upset that you're doing it. Or you're just like, I don't know, I'm not angry, I just don't know where I want to go. And I'm not getting to where I want to be and all this kind of BS. If you answer the question, why am I doing this. But when you find out that why I think one of the keys is, and this is something I've discovered, and maybe it will help you. When you're going to do your art, if you do your art in a selfish manner, if you make your film in a selfish manner, if you write your screenplay in a selfish manner, I feel that it doesn't go as far as if you make something for an audience. You serve an audience, you serve others, with your work, and try to bring something to them, whether that be thrills in a thriller, or horror movie, whether that be comedy, make them laugh, whether that might be inspiration in a drama, or a documentary that makes them think, or a funny little movie about an actress who's trying to make it in Hollywood like I did. Maybe that helps some actors along the way. Maybe that helped some filmmakers along the way. being conscious of the kind of work you're doing and why that work is being done is so important on your path. And I'm not saying that you don't have to think about money. I'm not saying you don't have to think about return on investment or ROI. All of that stuff is included in the why. But understanding that question is so, so important on your journey. And I just wanted to, again, shine a light on this question for you, the tribe, because it will change the way you do things. When you understand why you're doing things. And I've said this before in other episodes, but it's it's worth saying again, that you never know what impact your work, your story your ideas will have on another human being on this planet. It is your responsibility as an artist to get your message out into the world and help this world in whichever way your story can. make them laugh, make them cry, make them think. I hope this makes sense to you guys. And I hope that you haven't wasted your time listening to this episode. You know, I just wanted it's something that came to me. I wanted to just it just came to my head. I was like, You know what, this is something that I've been dealing with. And I'm going to share it with the tribe and see if it helps anybody out there. So do me a favor. If this episode has done anything for you. If it's made you think in any which way possible. Do me a favor, email me at [email protected]. And let me know. Or better yet, go to filmmaking podcast calm and leave a review on iTunes. And let me know there how this episode helped you or didn't help you. And I want to end this episode with a quote from one of my favorite films of all time. And this is from Andy dufrane from The Shawshank Redemption. Remember read hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. No good thing ever dies. Keep that also going keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

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Michael Mann Screenplays (Download)

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Michael Mann screenplays and filmography is truly remarkable. From the ground-breaking Thiefto the modern classic Heat. He created Miami Vice and brought us Manhunter. The screenplays below are the only ones that are available online. If you find any of his missing screenplays please leave the link int he comment section.

When you are done reading take a listen to Apple #1 Screenwriting Podcast The Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, with guest like Oscar Winner Eric Roth, James V. Hart, David Chase, John August, Oliver Stone and more.

(NOTE: For educational and research purposes only).

THIEF  (1981)

Screenplay by Michael Mann – Read the screenplay!

MANHUNTER (1986)

Screenplay by Michael Mann – Read the screenplay!

THE LAST OF THE MOHICANS (1992)

Screenplay by Michael Mann & Christopher Crowe – Read the screenplay!

HEAT (1995)

Screenplay by Michael Mann – Read the screenplay!

THE INSIDER (1999)

Screenplay by Michael Mann & Eric Roth – Read the screenplay!
Eric Roth Draft – Read the screenplay!

ALI (2001)

Screenplay by Michael Mann, Eric Roth, Chris Wilkinson & Stephen J. Rivele – Read the screenplay!

COLLATERAL (2004)

Screenplay by Michael Mann & Stuart Beattie – Read the screenplay!

MIAMI VICE (2006)

Screenplay by Michael Mann – Read the screenplay!

PUBLIC ENEMIES  (2009)

Screenplay by Michael Mann, Ronan Bennett & Ann Biderman – Read the screenplay!