20 Cinematography Terms Everyone on a Film Set Should Know

Camera terms aren’t just jargon for one exclusive department to throw around like code as they shout at each other across the set. Everyone working on the film should be privy to them and use them day-to-day in order to get things done efficiently. Here are 20 camera terms that every crew member should know:

AKS – Abbreviation for accessories. Often labeled on the boxes of camera equipment.

Camera Left/Camera Right – The direction of left and right in relation to the direction the camera is facing. Usually opposite the subject’s left and right.

Check The Gate – Called out after a take that the Director is satisfied with, for the 1st AC to check the internal part of the film camera called the gate. They check for any signs that may cause the film to be unusable in that previous take. Nowadays, as we use digital media rather than film stock, some people use the term ‘check the chip’ as there is no film gate but a camera hard drive. The 1st AC may playback the last take on the camera to ensure there were no technical faults.

Cowboys – A shot that is framed just above the knees of the subject.

Crossing – Called out as you walk in front of the lens if the camera operator is lining up the shot. Courteous to let them know you will block their shot momentarily but are passing through.

Cutaway – A shot of something that isn’t directly related to the action sequence. E.g. A cutaway shot of a clock, as a student rushes down a hallway late to class.

Dirty – Something is in the foreground of the shot. E.g. An actor’s shoulder or some set dressing.

Eyeline – Where an actor looks relative to the camera. This may be adjusted on different camera setups to ensure the shots can be cut together smoothly.

First Position (Ones) – The place where an actor starts in the scene. They may then have a move to a second position and so on.

SHORTCODE - SHORTS

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Jam – To sync something, usually the camera to the sound time code.

Marks – Colored tape, sausage-shaped bags, or t-markers put on the ground to help the performers know where to stand. It can also be used as focus marks or dolly marks to help the camera and grip team through their camera moves.

Master – A camera setup that runs the entire scene and keeps all characters in view. Often used as an establishing shot of the scene. Most directors will begin by shooting the master coverage of a scene and then move onto the closer coverage of singles, etc.

MOS (Mute On Sound or Mit Out Sound) – Rolling cameras without recording sound. MOS is written on the slate so those in post-production know there are no sound files to sync with the takes.

Off Screen – The actor is not in the camera frame but is still required to be on set for an eyeline or to deliver their dialogue for the other actors.

POV (Point of View) – A shot taken from the view of the subject. Normally what the actor is looking at but can be the POV of any item. E.g. An animal’s POV looking up at its owner.

Second Sticks – The first clap was missed so the 2nd AC does a second clap and calls “second sticks” so the post-production team can sync the sound and image effectively.

Singles – A close-up shot containing just one character.

Slate (Clapper Board) – The clapper board used by the 2nd AC’s to put an ID on each take so the editor can easily see what scene this shot is for and what take it is. It is also used to sync the sound between the camera takes and sound rushes during post-production.

Spraying – When spraying any aerosol such as hairspray or water around the camera, it’s considerate to call “spraying” so the camera department can either cover up the lens or turn the camera away from where you are so nothing goes on the lens.

Tail Slate/End Slate – The clapper board is added at the end of a take rather than at the beginning. The slate is turned upside down or 90 degrees to identify it is a tail slate.


Matt Webb is the author of Setlife: A Guide To Getting A Job in Film (And Keeping It). He is an Assistant Director with credits including The Great Gatsby, Mad Max: Fury Road, Hacksaw Ridge, Pirates of the Carribean and Alien: Covenant.

Setlife: A Guide To Getting A… is a must-have guide designed to prepare you for what happens on a typical day on a film set. Matt Webb’s no-fuss, practical tips are essential reading for anyone chasing a career in the film industry. The book is available for $25 from Amazon.

IFH 472: How to Make Money Selling Indie Feature Film NFTs


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If you’ve already listened to my last episode on NFT, then this one will feel like a bonus. But for those of you who haven’t, we explored a new territory this week in indie film and blockchain. My guests today are the filmmakers, Trevor Hawkins, and Nathan Kincaid, pioneers of the first-ever film sold as a non-fungible token, Lotawana. Which will be released soon. 

A monotonous life has pushed the unfulfilled Forrest (Todd Blubaugh) to a voyage of self-discovery by living amongst nature aboard his sailboat, Lorelei, on an alluring Missouri lake. Soon he catches wind of the rebellious and free-spirited Everly (Nicola Collie) and their idealistic dreams align. This thrilling and thought-provoking romantic journey follows the wanderlust couple as they are confronted by the challenges of their unconventional chosen path.

The Kansas City natives have worked extensively in commercials and short film production; often in partnership. 

Their decision to put Lotawana up as an NFT as an experiment was encouraged after a crash course on NTF from Trevor’s brother-in-law. They were trying to figure out the distribution and financing of their next film amid COVID. Nathan and Trevor saw the path as a viable stream to generate revenue and attention for their indie film. In thirty days they have seen a return of a fifth of their production budget. 

There’s no denying that NTFs might just become a brave new world that will change the playing field for all creatives. Especially for digital artists. It’s unclear what the future of NTFs will be, yet is an adventurous avenue for filmmakers to explore, interpret and utilize in ways that add value to their art and its ownership.

The guys and I didn’t talk only NFT in this conversation. You will hear a bit about the soul-crushing challenges of shooting commercials, the filmmaker’s ultimate best investment – lenses, and much more. 

Enjoy my informative conversation with Trevor Hawkins and Nathan Kincaid.

Alex Ferrari 0:00
I'd like to welcome to the show Trevor Hawkins and Nathan Kincaid, man How you guys doing?

Trevor Hawkins 0:09
Great, man. Thanks for having me.

Alex Ferrari 0:10
Oh, thanks. Yeah, I'm so I'm so happy to have you guys man. It's it is uh, you know, you guys came on my radar a little while ago when when I saw something about NF T's fly by and I was like, wait a minute, I've heard of these NF T's some guy just sold an NF T for $70 million, or some craziness. And I'm like, Oh, wait, there's some filmmakers being involved in this stuff. I'm like, let me let me check out what you did. And I saw some articles that were written about you in your film. And I was just like, well, I got I got to talk about that I got I got I got to get in there. So from the moment that you we actually book this, to the moment that we're actually recording it I of course have done obscene amounts of research into NF T's Bitcoin blockchain and the whole ball of wax. I mean, I've seen every little every documentary ever made about this, the subject matter.

Trevor Hawkins 1:02
You might be more of an expert than we are at this point.

Alex Ferrari 1:05
But your interview you but but the thing is, though, but you guys are in it, like you guys are in the weeds on it. So like all I have is just knowledge but you guys are like in the weeds doing stuff and I want to see how it's working out for you and everything. So before we jump into NF T's blockchain and all these kind of buzzwords that everyone's hearing out there, how did either both of you guys get into the business?

Trevor Hawkins 1:29
I just picked up a camera in high school and sort of filming my friends skateboarding and wakeboarding and love the skateboarding wakeboarding videos more than I liked the actual sport. I fell in love with the art bit and then in high school, I went to my buddy, his name's Brian Freeman's house. And in one week, we watched in his parents basement, Requiem for a Dream, Donnie Darko and A Clockwork Orange and Blue blew my mind. That's a heavy week. Is that a week? I just like? Yeah, and one week and that was I wasn't even really that familiar with cinema at that point. And so it obviously knocked my socks off. And I've been in love with it ever since. And I've been chasing it ever since.

Alex Ferrari 2:07
Wow, that's that's a heavy week, brother. Man. That is a heavy, heavy week, man. How about you, Nathan?

Nathan Kincaid 2:15
Yeah. In high school, kind of similar. I was a kid I had a camcorder in the trunk of my Pontiac Grand Damn.

Alex Ferrari 2:23
Well, well played, sir. Well played. Yeah.

Nathan Kincaid 2:28
I had to go to college. I was like a family stipulation. But here in Missouri, there was no film program. So as a communication major, felt like it just weren't getting straight, scratched, cinematic itches. So I was shooting for the athletic department. I was up on a scissor lift, filming football practices. I was under the hoop shooting basketball games. And then I decided to go to film school for a master's degree. And LA is always it's funny that we're here talking about what we're doing with NFT's from Missouri, because I've always kind of had a side I at Los Angeles, just from reading the trades and down and dirty pictures was a book that made it really impact on me. Yeah. Yeah. So I was like, and then I've always been a huge Coppola fan. And so I went to film school in San Francisco. Yeah. And then it was during a time when digital was really starting to take over. But at the school I was at, they were like, digital will never take over film. And says like, okay, so I learned film and came up in that, and which I'm grateful for, you know, in hindsight, because it makes you pre visualize and be more prepared and all that stuff. But then after school, I didn't want to take the well paved road to Los Angeles. So I came back to Kansas City to kind of figure it out. And it really wasn't soon after that, that I met Trevor. And I found a kindred spirit and someone else who really was like, serious about doing this, and then we just started getting in the local game. And then eventually that led to a lot of commercial work. And so we both currently make a living in this market doing commercial production. Yeah, that's what we've been doing for the last decade basically.

Alex Ferrari 4:26
And I've said it on the show a million times. I think some of the best best ground you can work to get experience is commercials for film because you work the of course you learn the craft, but it's the politics man, the politics, the politics of the set, how to handle clients how to do that. It's just walks right into like how to animate investors that I know producers. If you get into the studios, how do you how do executives and how you balance everything, egos and all of that stuff. So it's a great training ground for for all of that. But now, tell me about your film. If I pronounce it correctly, Lotawana,

Trevor Hawkins 5:03
you nailed it.

Alex Ferrari 5:05
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So tell me about your film Lotawana

Trevor Hawkins 5:10
yeah so, Lotawana is a story about a young couple that live on a sailboat. And they're sort of, I guess, over a bit fed up with their superficial materialistic lives they've been leading. And so they sort of recreate this world for themselves. I don't sailboat. And maybe because of a bit of lack of preparedness, that world comes crashing down on them. And so the whole movie is sort of a thought experiment to the viewer of, can we rewrite our own rules of modern existence? Or does society operated a way for a reason as sort of like, ideally, idealism meets realism, kind of, it was born out of the idea that at one point, I was gonna leave for a few years to sail around the world with one of my friends. But that would mean I'd have to give up on my biggest hustle, my own indie film, hustle, my dream of becoming a filmmaker and making films. And I'd have to give up all of that momentum. And so I had this moment where I realized that I had to stay home. And I had to give up on that, like adventure dream to sort of keep my filmmaking dream alive. And so I'm just really interested in that interface. They're like, Can we still live authentic, unique, fulfilling lives while still sort of, you know, like, doing commercial work doing Wendy's commercials?

Alex Ferrari 6:29
to stay alive, bro. Hey, hey, listen, man, I started off in commercials as well, man. So I completely understand it. So it's, yeah, sometimes you're like, if you ever done tabletop? Yo, yeah. Oh, tabletops. That's, that's a whole other level of crazy with the client to like, you know, can you move? Can you move the cup this way? It's not listening properly. And you're like, what am I doing with my life? Like, why am I here? Like, it's not even, like, Really? But then you look at the check. You're like, Okay.

Nathan Kincaid 7:04
I gotta piggyback that man. We had a moment one time and it was slow motion, like fried onion ring bits being and people were analyzing, like, which way they bounced when they hit?

Alex Ferrari 7:15
Yeah, yeah. Oh, no, we lost the production company was that they lost the account, because the catch up, looked too bloody in the shot, and they in no one caught it. And like they did this kind of like this kind of sweep across. And they're like, yeah, this director has no idea how to shoot catch up. And you're like, Wow, man, this is? This is this is a thing? I don't understand. Yeah. This is maybe maybe I should make a left turn here.

Trevor Hawkins 7:45
And I could go down this dark road with you for a long time. No,

Alex Ferrari 7:48
no, no, no, no, this is not this is not this. We're not here to talk about the horrors of working in the garage. And how soul crushing it can be sometimes sometimes it's fun. But it's it's a bit, there's an off balance there. But um, so when you guys finished your movie, I'm assuming you looked at the distribution landscape and said, well, there's only money to be made here during the traditional distribution ways. I'm sure all these distributors are going to just give us lots and lots of money going to be completely transparent with everything. And we should be able to recoup all of our budget and then some so enough to be able to make another movie. Is that what the conversation was like? Yeah. Yeah. So that's

Nathan Kincaid 8:31
Trevor, you know, we got all these amazing offers. We're just I guess we should just close your eyes to pick one.

Alex Ferrari 8:38
All we see is money. all we see is money in like complete transparency everywhere. Like what Netflix absolutely take two of those. Like, it's, I joke about this for everyone who's listening. If it was, this is their first episode. I joke about this because it's the satis situation that we have as filmmakers is to deal with getting our films out there. So when you look at the landscape, and obviously it wasn't probably what you were looking for, because last I checked, Brad Pitt doesn't star in your movie with Leonardo DiCaprio, right? So it's not yet. So it's a tough sell. It's just looking at the movie. From a trailer standpoint. It looks by the way stunning. It's gorgeous. It's beautifully shot. The story sounds fantastic. But in the marketplace, this is going to be it's an interesting sell. It's an interesting sell to get it out there into the marketplace. So what made you guys that said, You know what, let's, let's bet everything on going down a different road.

Trevor Hawkins 9:36
You want to take it, Nathan?

Alex Ferrari 9:38
for everyone for everyone listening and not seeing their videos. Both their faces froze for a second smiles came up on their faces and they just said Where do you want to go? You go you go fight? Well,

Nathan Kincaid 9:48
I mean, what we've been saying is and everyone that's listening to this podcast is gonna is gonna I think align with this and that is we're in this crazy world now. Where It's easier to make a movie than it is to get anyone to see it, you know. And it's just not the same as it was like there are perceived barriers to entry that there would have been to get a film camera and to get film and put it crew together that way. So basically, we've kind of had our own thematic journey as we've gone on making this movie. And we've always done everything. We've always taken every step of the way to think outside of the box. We've considered the traditional options everywhere we could, but we also step back and we're like, Okay, well, because we're not a big machine. We have nimble opportunities to do things that larger budgets and entities wouldn't be able to have. So if you go all the way back to the beginning of the movie, we were entertaining some like presale offers, but those were contingent on us getting well. Not Brad Pitt, but certainly name market. marketable talent. Yeah, we would love to work with Brad, by the way, because we're all from Missouri.

Alex Ferrari 11:09
Hey, Brad. Hey, Brad, if you're listening, we're all willing to work with you, sir. I know, it's tough out there for you right now, Brad. But if you're willing, any three, or any one of us in the West,

Nathan Kincaid 11:19
bucket list, homie. And so basically, once we saw that we could do a pre sale with a certain amount of budget with certain talent, that also then I'm putting together the schedule. And I'm starting to tell Trevor, like, so we can afford, like, 20 day shoot, maybe. And we're thinking, Man, this is our first movie, we want a little breathing room, you know. And so at a certain point, we said, okay, you know, we're going to, we're going to find our own talent. And once we did that, that opened up the playbook for us. And so for example, we decided to shoot on these lakes every season, you know, not just three weeks consecutive in one month that gave you one look, suddenly, our playbook opened up. And it was like, Okay, cool. Let's shoot a week in February when it's snowing, then let's pick up in late spring, let's do you know, and fall and everything. And so, for us, by the time we got to the, to looking at the ways to get this movie out there. Well, first of all, also, there's the whole era of COVID. We were so excited for film festivals. I mean, that's it as an indie filmmaker, that's your reward, kind of Sure. To meet people like yourself and and other filmmakers and to talk about it and stuff. And so that stuff didn't happen. And then basically, when the NFT possibility showed up, like this little dangly sparkly thing. Well, basically, Trevor and Trevor's wife, who's the CO producer with me on the film, their brother in law, had been looking into what NF T's were, and this is like second week of March. And so he was talking to Trevor's wife about her maybe releasing this album, she's been working on musically as an NF T. And then it just the conversation evolved from there. And they spent a weekend looking into it. And then they kind of pitched it to me. And I was just like, Oh, yeah, I see. I see this, what this is, and so, and again, because we weren't, we didn't have investors that we had to get permission from. We just had to decide on on our own if this is what we want to do. And it's it's just like, Well, what do we have to lose? Really?

Alex Ferrari 13:45
So, so Okay, so we've been talking about NF T's NF T's Can you explain to the audience, what is an NF? t?

Nathan Kincaid 13:52
You can do that part, Trevor?

Trevor Hawkins 13:55
Okay. So the way I understand in ft as of the last month and a half is they exist on the blockchain and the blockchain is one irrefutable code that exists in one unit all around the world. And it exists across all types of computers that are always cross referencing and cross checking each other. So if anybody tries to counterfeit the blockchain, it's essentially impossible because they'll get caught. And I don't know the repercussions of what happens. They just can't,

Alex Ferrari 14:24
I can't I can't, I just can't because it it ruins everything else afterwards. Yeah,

Trevor Hawkins 14:29
sure, sure. And so what that's done is, throughout time, if an artist were to paint a painting, and then hold it in their hands, they can take it to a gallery and the gallery can quantify that and say this painting is worth this much because there's only one, but enter the age of digital art where if you create a piece of digital art, whether it be a cat meme, or a movie like us or an album, or a digital painting, you can recreate that digitally an infinite number of times, essentially losing value to everyone. One of the copies there's never been an original. There technically was but it doesn't matter to people because it's non verifiable. And so what happens with the blockchain is, since you can have one blockchain and one blockchain only if you upload your art to the blockchain in a process called minting, then you all of a sudden have verifiable proof that cannot be broken. That that is the original piece of art that has ever existed. So if I were to make a cat meme, and uploaded on to the blockchain as an NF t, then that will forever be the first cat meme that I have that that there's ever been a reason by you bite me. And then the reason why that has value is just like, why does anybody care about hanging original art in their house versus just a replica, everybody feels the value of the authenticity there. And so for the first time ever, digital art has had an authentication process of originality. And so that's why this whole thing is sort of stormed and flared up as all these digital artists are running into this space. And we've been really lucky because we like Nathan said, when this whole thing kind of exploded, we were standing there with the recently completed indie film in our hands. And nobody had done this with an indie film yet. And so we just kind of took the plunge. Like Nathan said, we weren't beholden to anybody, I actually mortgaged my house to make the movie. And so we own the movie outright. Nathan, myself and my wife, Cory. And so we didn't have to ask permission to anybody, and we just threw it up as an NF T. And we have a few different NF T's available. Some of them are copyright NF T's we have a collection of those where if anybody purchases, one of our copyright, NF T's, they will actually become one of the shareholders have the theatrical cut of our movie and join in with decision making, and profit sharing and everything that goes with owning a cut of a indie film. And then we have a world premiere NFT, which we're really excited about as well that if anybody purchases one of these world premiere NF T's, then they're going to be the first people on the planet to watch the world premiere of this movie, like Nathan was saying, we don't have festivals right now with COVID. And the ones that we've been accepted to have all said they're just doing a digital thing. And we haven't been stoked about that. And so this is essentially our festival run, as Nathan's been saying, and what's kind of cool about it is that forever world premieres have been a localized thing and a physical city with physical people going into physical theater. And now anyone from around the world could join our world premiere, we're also offering a couple other smaller NF T's just entry level things like frame grabs in the movie. And we've got a list of mile long of drops that we plan on doing here in the near future. We're excited though, because what we found is that our specific NF T's are turning into what they're calling legacy tokens, because like you said, we were the first through the door, that now people are caring about the first NBA one, the first Ilan must tweet the first, pretty much every type of NF t that comes to the door. And we've secured our place in history in this whole new frontier. And we're honestly, we're not experts on the blockchain. Whenever my brother in law told us about it, we frantically googled what an NFT was just like everybody else. And so we're kind of making it up as we go. But we feel really confident. And we're really stoked about where things have come so far already with it. Because I mean, just in the last month or so, we've made back a fifth of our production budget. And that's just within within the first month. And what's sweet about NF T's is after you sell in enough NFT and then subsequent purchases, like say, if that buyer were to resell that to another buyer, you can set your what's the word

Alex Ferrari 19:03
percent

Trevor Hawkins 19:04
percentage to where you would get, I think the industry standard is

Alex Ferrari 19:08
10%,

Trevor Hawkins 19:09
which is what we went with, we'll get 10% of resale resells down the road. So as legacy tokens raise and value, we will we will see money coming from that down the road. And our end goal is to turn this around and be able to use this whole new marketplace and this whole new frontier to fund our next film that we've already got written and ready to go.

Alex Ferrari 19:32
So Lego so legacy tokens are essentially the rookie card of of the artist essentially. So this is the Mickey Mantle rookie card. Or

Nathan Kincaid 19:42
it's not just the rookie card of a player. It's kind of the rookie card of a sport. Well, you

Alex Ferrari 19:47
have a you have a you have a rookie card of the sport because you're the first out the gate, doing something like this. But then being the one that gets that not only That legacy token, but of Trevor's first film out there, and I, you know, I, the way I've explained it, to some people is like, imagine if, you know, you had Quinn Tarantino's NFT for my best friend's birthday, which is the unreleased first feature he ever did, you know, or the Reservoir Dogs NFT.

Trevor Hawkins 20:25
Right.

Alex Ferrari 20:25
And all of a sudden when quitting blew up that NFT would be extremely valuable. So when you're purchasing an NF t from an artist, which is what's going on here, you're betting not only on the NFT, but you're also offering something else. And there's, there's multiple different kinds of NF T's, which we'll talk about in a second. But you're also betting that Trevor is his next movie is going to be the Avengers, obviously. And then, and then and then he wins the Oscar for the Avengers first time ever, and then you know, things like that, and then all of a sudden that NFT turns into a much more valuable proposition. I know you're he's he's blushing By the way, everyone he's actually blushing right now. But that's it, but that's the thing you'd like, you know, if you're, if you're buying NFT's from Sundance Film Festival, guys and gals, you know, how many of those if we would if there was NF T's in the 90s? How much would add burns Richard Linklater, Spike Lee or you know, Steven Soderbergh all those all this videotape. Yeah, yeah. All those NFT's what would they be worth today? You know, if there was something like that's a woman when I was looking into NFT's, the first that I just couldn't grasp it, I couldn't grasp it. I'm like, Okay, I get it, I get it. But then it just like, Oh, it's a rookie card. Got it. Okay. And then every movie is another season that he's playing in the maybe that that movie, so let's say your next movie blows up. That's the year that you won the MVP, and you won the World Series. You know, but other seasons, maybe other movies don't pop that way. And they're not as valuable because of you know, but it like in any filmmakers career, some movies are much more valuable than other films, depending on

Trevor Hawkins 21:59
I think that's a great analogy. I haven't heard of put that. That's actually quite, I said thing.

Nathan Kincaid 22:04
I've been a baseball card one and then also you think about like, amazing Spider Man number one or

Alex Ferrari 22:09
something comic? Yep. Yep. Well, it's like, it's like a, it's like in comic books, I was a comic book, I've been a comic book collector, most of my life, you know, there's different issues that have more value because of what happens in the issue. So the first the first appearance of venom and the first appearance of the Green Goblin or whatever that you know, the different things are when Spider Man suit turns black, or these kind of things, these events make those issues more More, more popular, and hence more valuable. Same thing would happen with NF T's. So you already have a rookie card scenario, you have your amazing, not amazing Spider Man. Number one, you have amazing fantasies number 15, which is the first appearance of spider man with a lot of wanna, right now. And you're also like, oh, by the way, you're also the first comic book, that's a legacy token. So that's essentially what you guys have in this thing. And then as as your careers continue to grow the value of this not only from the point of view of being the first comic book, and the first appearance of Trevor, as a filmmaker, and, you know, as a creator, or creative creator behind this, and forgive me, if there's other creators, I'm just using you as an example driver behind this, but then the value goes up. But then there's sometimes you might have in 1941, like Spielberg did, you know, he had Jaws, Close Encounters 1941. And then all of a sudden, 1941 might not be as valuable then Raiders of the Lost Ark came up, and then that NFT is gonna explode as well. So that's the kind of, that's the way I see it in my head. And that's the only way I can make any sense of it all. But it's extremely exciting. potential, and I feel that no one's really figured it out yet. No One No One everyone's still trying to figure it out. Literally, by the day, I've been having conversations with distribution guys about figuring it out. They're all trying to figure out how to crack the nut. They all know something's cool here and they all know is the future. But um, like I was just thinking I'm like, this is a no brainer for like Disney. This is no brainer for like, you know, you're gonna buy the Avengers on it. Yeah, I'm sure that like they I'm sure there's going to be an Avengers, you know, you know, or the next Black Panther. Can you imagine an NFT for Black Panther? You know, after Chadwick unfortunately passed, like the value of that, like, Oh my god, how much I mean, what and even before his passing just the explosion of what that movie was, imagine if there was an NFT for that works. I think the NBA guys have been doing that the best the top shot, guys.

Trevor Hawkins 24:28
I mean, there's we've been fortunate enough to talk to some like development companies in ft world right now. And they're talking exactly like you the actual people writing the code and developing this world right now are saying to themselves that we don't know where this is gonna go. We don't know if we're gonna be the ones right now. All these tech companies are rushing in like, the gold rush of 19,000,049 whatever year that was 1490 whatever. Right. But yeah, right now No one knows what's going to happen. It's a brave new world. And we're lucky enough to be the first ones out of the gate and entire film industry.

Alex Ferrari 25:06
That's insane. Man, that's absolutely insane. Now with NF t, so you have there's different kinds of NF T's. So you actually are selling? Basically, points, essentially, you're selling like points on of the film through distribution. And is it only for the theatrical one? Or is it for all of the distribution of your film, because I know Kevin Smith is releasing his next movie, and giving, like literally just selling and auctioning off his entire distribution rights to his films. So what is yours?

Trevor Hawkins 25:34
So yeah, we have a few different types of NF T's and just how we kind of took a note from when we were researching, we kind of took a note from Kings of Leon, when they released their album, and Grimes and a few other folks, when they released their music, you also get these bonus things with them. And so we kind of took a note from their style. And in addition to the, to the NFT itself, the NF T is literally only a chunk of code on the blockchain. So if you buy a normal NF T, that's really all you're getting, you don't own the copyright to the piece of art, you don't own copyright to anything else. But with us, if you buy one of our copyright, NF T's, then the bonus you get with that is an actual share of the theatrical cut of the movie. And so it's you would own that cut of the film. So wherever that theatrical cut goes off and lives in the world, you would own a part of that and own be entitled to any profits to that. The counterintuitive part is that the value of what you're purchasing in ft, is really just the NFT itself. Because as everybody knows, becoming an investor and owner and an indie film has never been a get rich, quick scheme. And

Alex Ferrari 26:52
really quickly, how do you how do you make? How do you make a million? How do you make a million dollars in the film industry? You start off, you start with a billion. Oh,

Trevor Hawkins 27:03
exactly. And so the day if and when lotto Juana turns a profit, then absolutely all of our shareholders who have purchased these NF T's will be entitled to that. But really the value, and the cool piece of this whole bit is just owning that NF t itself. And then, and like I said, the other collection that we've got is the world premiere, the bonus you get with that world premiere NF T is that you'll be the first person to ever watch that movie in the public world premiere of a lot of one. So that's kind of like a ticket stub. The NF T is really the ticket stub, and along with that ticket stub, you get to go to the event.

Alex Ferrari 27:40
Now do you actually Alright, so you don't actually put the entire movie up on open sea, which is the platform that you guys chose to use. It's not like the whole movie is up there somewhere for someone to watch, you're actually just selling rights at this point. So you're selling rights or access to the film in one way, shape, or form like and because you're buying it on the blockchain, or you're buying an NFT. It's, it's there, and it's yours. And you can't get rid of it. And it's done. But there's other ways of going about it. So you're selling distribution, basically selling points to at points and event like, you know, points, basically points in world premiere. So you're selling like a couple different things. But you could also sell it as an art piece. So you could say there is 100 Limited Edition. And FTS, have a lot of Juana as an art piece that you can sell. And if you and there's only going to be 100 ever, so they're like limited edition prints of the film. And there's only 100 of them. So if you had again, going back to that analogy, El Mariachi, the only one of your number, you know, you have one of 100 El Mariachi NF T's. What would that be worth today? So that's another possibility and selling it more as an artwork thing. But there's other the other possibility of selling distribution rights. And also there's another possibility of raising funds for you from a crowdsourcing and crowdfunding and crowdfunding through it as well, as you've heard of that as well.

Nathan Kincaid 29:04
Oh, yes. Yeah, we've been we've we've been thinking about that route for a long time. And, yeah, it's a good point, when you're, you're saying about making an art piece, you know, you think of like certain, say, a criteria on collection DVD that has only a certain run. And we we thought about all that. So you have to you have to remember when, when we were getting this thing minted on March 16, you know, and we're trying to move fast, because we don't know who else is out there trying to do this, right. So you're really quickly trying to decide what we want to do. And you know, we quickly decided that we wanted to give it give, put this real world value on it as well. But we then saw an opportunity. And this is where it gets exciting because this is an experiment as well. So when we when we made the copyright NF T, that opens up this kind of thought process this, you know, you've opened a new organic road of thinking here. And so now we're like, Okay, so what happens when we get an offer for distribution? Do we then and what and where we're getting now and working with lawyers on making real is like, you know, then do those copyright NFT holders get go to a password protected site, and they get to see the deal points, and they get the vote, as well. That's,

Alex Ferrari 30:34
that sounds fun. That's good. That sounds fantastic.

Nathan Kincaid 30:38
Right. And so I know there's I mean, I went to film school, I know there's a lot of film school people out there that don't get to be involved in these kind of conversations. And and they'd love to be, you know, and it could be it's exciting. So it

Alex Ferrari 30:50
is exciting. But also, I think you're in this is, again, being the first one through the door, you're the one that gets shot, or first, whatever the hell you get the arrows in your back. The thing is that you're living in the NFT. And the rights are in the NF are in the NF t but you're still dealing in the in the real world, and like the legacy world of distribution and the legacy world of, of how money is made and everything like that. If the entire system was on blockchain, if everything worked on blockchain, then it would be all automatic. It'd be an automatic payment systems, you wouldn't even have to worry about it do we do we'd be doing smart contracts? Essentially, well

Trevor Hawkins 31:29
are we have a digital strategist who actually probably should be on this call with us. But he he's much more knowledgeable about this whole space. And he's telling us about platforms that already exist, that you can just sort of throw a lot of one as a project onto and then divvy up all this stuff, we actually have plans of releasing the film lot of one a properly to the entire world to view later this year, like fall, winter time. And as Nathan said, In the beginning, we had offers that we weren't stoked about for pre sales and initial financing. And then we decided to go our own route, we had our own production struggles that those are stories all in themselves that we had to overcome. And then after the movie is completed, we had distribution offers that we weren't that stoked about as well. And so

Alex Ferrari 32:16
can you can you can you tell me what those were, I love hearing these, I love hearing these fantastic offers. Well, hey, without names, without names with companies, yeah,

Trevor Hawkins 32:25
without dropping companies, it was just sort of everything you'd expect for an indie film, we had a handful of distributors that were like, yeah, we'll throw you up on all these digital platforms. And then we expect you to see this much money, and they give us these breakdowns of all this stuff. And then we looked at the other slate, we looked at their slate of films that they're currently representing, and maybe they'd have one or two gems in there. But for the large part, they're like, we call them like spray and pray distributors, where they just like, throw a million movies in the shotgun. The

Alex Ferrari 32:57
shotgun distributors. Yeah,

Trevor Hawkins 32:58
yeah, exactly. And so we just did not we put too much time and too much work and too much blood, sweat and tears in this film to just settle for something like that. And we're, we're proud of the film that we made. And so it felt a little bit like settling that we kind of knew that we wouldn't get a lot out of it. And so that's what when this whole NF t thing came along. And we didn't have something we were super stoked about on the table. We'd said, What the hell, why not, and it's paid off for us because we're getting to talk to you, then how many indie films out there would have loved to have conversations. I mean, we've talked to indie wire and Screen Rant and the 30 others or maybe not 30, maybe like $15 or something like that, like, so many indie films would just love that opportunity. And like I said, we're already starting to make money back. So we feel like it's been a success so far. And looking forward to the way we released the movie publicly to the world. We've got some ideas that we're really excited about that is even going to sort of try to transform that space a little bit as well, like be and do something that not everybody's doing and actually getting eyeballs from around the world to watch the movie.

Alex Ferrari 34:06
That's, that's, that's awesome. And it's it's such an exciting thing. And one thing that we kind of talked about, but I want everyone to listen and to understand is that with NF T's that 10% that you're talking about that you've set in the NFT that you know, if someone resells that and resells it, that's revolutionary for an artist that's an absolutely revolutionary idea because it Van Gogh paints a van Gogh and gives it to a gallery and the gallery pays 500 bucks for it. Then Van Gogh dies and everyone thinks that he's a millionaire, or if he doesn't mean doesn't die. He's still alive and everyone thinks, oh my god, this guy's amazing. They could go off and sell that for $60 million, and the artist gets nothing, not upset. But with NF T's the artist continues to generate revenue with every resale so if the artist becomes more popular if the artists become you know comes becomes more expensive. The artist is continuously getting a passive revenue stream For the rest of his life, and I'm not even sure if it continues to go on and on for eternity, essentially, you know,

Trevor Hawkins 35:08
absolutely right, just how Macklemore and sturgill Simpson, when they first started releasing their own music, they kept it. They didn't want to go through the label system because of how many people had their hands in the honeypot. And they decided, hey, you know, this new digital world and new emerging technologies? Why don't we just do it ourselves this way. And they're better off for it. And so now that the film industry has kind of taken a note from the music industry, and a lot of different ways, where we're really kind of letting ourselves be the guinea pigs for all these new avenues of the film industry.

Alex Ferrari 35:39
Yeah, I mean, it's pretty brave what you guys are doing? I mean, because I know, I mean, looking at the film, I don't know what your budget was. But looking at the film, it doesn't look like it was done for five bucks, five bucks. I mean, it looks like it costs it cost a minute. I mean, it costs a bit it costs a bit to make so and you've financed that, you know, you refinance your house and got the money which I've yelled from the top of the mountain in this podcast, don't ever refinance your house to budget, an independent film. I've said it a million times. Because it's usually the first it's a risk. But is it a risk that you're willing to take? So you know, hopefully, I don't think that it's going to you have I say that because you also have a career, you have revenue coming in. But I've seen filmmakers who do that. And they are hoping and praying that this is the only revenue that's going to keep their family alive. And I've seen, I've seen divorces, I've seen every I mean, because that's just stupid. But you're taking a calculated risk. So it's okay. I will, I will accept that you need my acceptance. But I just want everyone to know that yes, that that makes that will take it makes all the sense in the world. Now one other thing that you were doing with, with NF T's as you started putting out stills from your film, as I am assuming art pieces, those are being treated as art pieces.

Trevor Hawkins 36:57
Yeah, so each still that we put out, we put out 20. So far, when we first listed it, they're about five bucks a pop, but a theory has gone up a little bit. So they might be around 10. Now, I don't know what those are. Yeah, sure. And those are just meant to be just little art pieces, entry level things that if people are excited about what we're doing, they can jump in and buy some of those as well. Over half of them have already been bought, there's only nine of them left, so and

Alex Ferrari 37:21
then you're only doing one or one at a time. There's only one NFT personal.

Trevor Hawkins 37:27
Exactly. So and we released 20 stills from the movie that we're stoked about, and I think 11 of them have sold so and I'm not even sure if anybody's even relisted them for sale yet. So those are digital art piece collectibles that people are already owning, and they will always in forever be the NFT owners of that, then there will never be any more. Those are sort of like one off things.

Alex Ferrari 37:50
That's so awesome. Like, I can't believe that. That's like, I don't need to say like, I can't believe that's working. Like, like, I can't believe it. But it makes sense. I mean, if you're into this, and you're if you're really excited about doing it, it makes all the sense in the world. And you are it's just such a you could everyone listening, you have to understand the potential here is massive for the right project for people who know what they're doing how they do it. It's not going to be perfect for everybody. But it's another potential revenue stream. Even if you go traditionally, you could still do NF T's. And I'm already hearing the distributors are adding that into the contracts now like it's this includes NF T's you can't we own everything. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Trevor Hawkins 38:32
The music industry is being flipped upside down right now in real time from this. And there's music companies out there that are trying to be the big the next big Spotify for the blockchain world. And everything's changing in real time, because it's sort of a user generated space where you can be the owners of all of your content as where Spotify has been. I'm, I don't really have a dog in this race. But Spotify rips off musicians, you know? Absolutely. Absolutely. They don't pay what they should be paying for all their plays. And artists are getting tired of that. And so entered blockchain and all these new technologies and people are running over there and just like streaming upset the world of like CDs and traditional music purchasing. Now, blockchain is upsetting the existing streaming paradigm. And the film industry forever has had an existing physical DVD, VHS paradigm that got disrupted by streaming. And now, the film industry will probably take a note from the music industry, as it usually does. And the blockchain in all of these new interfaces could be next. And like I said, we just happen to be the first out of the gate. I mean, yeah, like with NBA top shots. I

Alex Ferrari 39:43
mean, those guys jumped on so quickly, and they're doing so well with those NF T's. I mean, in there, the first kind of major organization to really take it seriously. But it was just a no brainer, like it's a it's a it's a sports card, but you're buying highlights. You know, you're you're buying You're buying Imagine if you're buying a Michael Jordan highlight, like you own that highlight, like that's, that's pretty cool. That's a pretty cool idea so if you owned El Mariachi you know as as an art piece pretty cool bragging rights man I gotta, like, you know, like, and like people listening like I got I got a lot of water, a lot of wantagh's, you know, NFT like I'm the I bought the first independent film ever put out on on NFT that's bragging rights. And that's the same reason why you buy an original and put up on the wall, as opposed to buying a poster 100% right. Now, now you also chose I was gonna ask you about gas. Next is a gassing or SP gas fees. Yeah. So explain to the people like if the open sea is the platform you're using, they're arguably one of the biggest platforms for NF T's, right? Yeah. So explain what a gas fee is. And what was your gas for you to put this stuff up, if you don't want me to ask him.

Trevor Hawkins 40:59
Open see is operates a little differently than some of the other platforms you can mint NF T's on and you only pay your gas fees and percentage to the platform which is open see once you're in empty cells. So you can list 100 or 1000 nF T's you don't pay a dime until they say something. And then they just take a percentage of that and what gas fees are. It costs money and human hours to keep to make the blockchain exist and keep going. And gas fees all those are as money going into the honey pot of developers that keep this thing running. So nobody's really making a ton from what I understand. I'm not an expert on the blockchain. But these are literally just like your taxes that you have to pay to keep the roads going.

Alex Ferrari 41:47
And for people it's through my understanding of the blockchain in order for every transaction that goes into the blockchain, and by the way, there are multiple block chains. So everyone thinks that there's just not the one blockchain there's multiple different block chains by you know, aetherium is one. Bitcoin runs on another blockchain, but that's crypto and we'll get to crypto in a minute flow and there's a bunch of different blockchains and then there's now people building block chains internally for companies. blockchain is a concept. But Ethereum is arguably the biggest most well known blockchain to do other tack on other businesses and platforms and things on so it's like the highway that they've put on where you could put you can establish businesses and houses and things like that. So from my understanding with with blockchain hold, I just lost my train of thought because this is tough man this is rough stuff

Trevor Hawkins 42:36
blockchain well, and you're you're getting into the point where you're gonna start schooling us we might be learning some facts from you here.

Alex Ferrari 42:46
Okay, okay. So So blockchain Okay, now just just came back to me. So blockchain every time that there's a, a, a transaction, it needs to be verified. And by the people who verify it are miners, people outside that are all around the world, trying to break down the algorithm, the complicated math calculations to verify that the thing and put it into the blockchain, and there's so many block so many transactions that go into one block before it goes back on the chain. And this is all being done completely decentralized. Without anyone those gas fees, because in the way that why miners do that is because they get paid. And how do they get paid as generally with crypto. So if they're on the Ethereum, they get a little bit of aetherium crypto per transaction that they break, and then everyone is racing, to be the first to break that or to calculate that with their computing power. So they get the they get the money. So there's 1000 people trying to millions of people trying to, to be the first to to do the math. That's why you need bigger and bigger computers faster and faster internet more and more power. And that's how this whole thing goes. So with Bitcoin, Bitcoin, which we'll talk about a second is its crypto, which is a it's an actual currency, every transactions that happens on that is a bit slower because it's getting tougher and tougher to break these codes because there's a limited amount of Bitcoin ever that's going to be mined, where theory there is not a theory that goes on and on and on. It was built like that, because it's not arguably wasn't supposed to be a cryptocurrency. It was supposed to be a platform where people can do that. But now aetherium is exploding. As of this recording, I mean, it's gone up like 25% in the last week or two. But that's the world of crypto now. How much do you guys know about crypto and can you talk about cryptocurrencies a little bit and how that whole works?

Trevor Hawkins 44:38
I'll put it this way. I feel like everything you just said, we've heard from Tucker, our digital strategist who's on our a lot of on a team. And I feel like last time is explained my eyes kind of glazed over a bit and exited the room somehow in my brain. So I feel like that again, a little bit right there. So I think you've reached the end of our

Alex Ferrari 45:01
College. Nathan, you've been very quiet Nathan. Yeah,

Nathan Kincaid 45:05
yeah. Hey Tucker, Tucker, somebody gets Tucker on the phone.

Trevor Hawkins 45:09
filmmakers from the beginning. And that's where our heart and our passion is we got experts on is

Alex Ferrari 45:16
no worries, that's I wanted to get to that point, we've reached that point. And that's fantastic. And I'm glad we've got that. But it's the crazy artists that are the ones who make this stuff possible, man is that, you know, it's, it's pretty remarkable. Now,

Nathan Kincaid 45:31
I'll just throw in there real quick, man, if you're an indie filmmaker, I mean, at some point, you're an entrepreneur as well, like, you're always looking for a way to just get it done. And like your ad says, You're always hustling, you know, you're, you're, you're trying to find a way. And so, you know, this was a way that presented itself to us. And we, you know, we took it. And basically you, because I feel that an independent film that has maybe a bigger star involved or a bigger, you know, no offense more marketable director or something else that can bring an audience, someone who has an existing audience, whether that be a YouTuber, a podcaster,

Alex Ferrari 46:10
or like a, you know, an ED burns or Spike Lee, or someone who has an existing audience out there, I feel that it's gonna be a lot easier for them to generate revenue because they have an existing audience. So that's why I still find it so fascinating with you guys. Because I'm like, well, there's no stars in it. This is his first film. So you're generating this from basically all the press that you've been getting about this, because you guys are the first one through the door, and people are like, this is cool. And now this is new and, and you're generating revenue from this, which is honestly genius.

Trevor Hawkins 46:41
Oh, well. Thanks,

Alex Ferrari 46:43
dude. I did I did I see I've seen everything, bro. I've seen all about indie. I've seen every tactic on how to hustle some money for an independent film. And that's why I reached out to you guys. I was like, Oh, no, no, like, I gotta I gotta get these guys on the phone.

Trevor Hawkins 46:56
Yeah, I mean, we're never in a million years when we have thought this is what a majority of our conversations would be about when lotto Juana started getting attention. And we're actually really excited. We believe in the film itself. And we're really excited to have conversations about the actual movie whenever we do release it later this year. Yeah, yeah, we'll take all of it we can get right now. It's just such a, we're so lucky that we even found ourselves in a situation,

Nathan Kincaid 47:22
right. So many examples in the past, though, like, even when Morgan Spurlock did supersize me, they got these like fat Ronald McDonald dolls, and we're handing them out at Sundance. And that got people to see the movie. And then they said, Oh, that's a good movie. So, you know, yeah, we're not just a gimmick. But you know, this market is so oversaturated if you if you can find a way or think of a way to get through the fray, then if you're really an indie filmmaker, you're gonna have to think of something you got to find a way

Alex Ferrari 47:59
Oh, there's no question about it, man. I mean, you that that's the thing, you've got a quality product, man, look, I've seen Look, if I would have seen the movie, honestly, I'll be I'll be straight up with you guys. I read the story. I read the stories and read the articles. But if I checked the trailer out, and when I looked at the trailer, if it was like some sort of garbage thing shot on, like, you know, a VHS camera or some stuff, and like, if it would have been like, that would be like, No, I can't have him on the show. There's, there's a quality product here. You just, yeah, no, I mean, just from did I see so much, man, I talked independent filmmakers on a daily basis. I'm sent everything every day. So I see so much stuff coming through. So when anything like this comes through my in in front of my radar, I can see quality. So I'm like, Okay, these are these are filmmakers, they know the craft, they can put something together looks really good. So I knew there was quality there. But trust me, man, if it was, if this was like a garbage thing, I would have not had you guys on the show. I'd be like, Look, I'll find another way to talk about NF T's but there's a quality movie here. So it's not a gimmick, because that would have been a gimmick. Like, you know if, if a if a trauma film does this, which I'm sure Lloyd will be doing this any moment now. But if like a you know, like a trauma film, make something like this, which are those like Toxic Avenger films, which he should because they're going to sell out. But a trauma esque film that didn't have the cachet that trauma does, I would have been like, no, not so much. But this is quality man from the poster to the from the poster to the trailer to the website. Now you guys have a solid, a solid presentation of a film and I say I don't take that very lightly. Because most independent films have absolutely no idea how to present themselves how to market themselves how to get themselves out there. So that's another reason why I wanted to get you guys on the show.

Trevor Hawkins 49:45
Well, that means a lot man, especially since you live in breed this world. That That means a lot. That's huge. It's Nathan and I've been hitting our heads together for long enough now because I mean, we're We are proud of the film we made and I mean we'll See what the world thinks of it. We're really excited to hear the good with the Bad's. But I mean, it. We're not famous Nathan and I aren't famous, our actor and actress aren't famous. And we did make a drama that is pretty, not by the books. And we, when we were starting out, we thought we wanted to do something different. But really what happens is is double edged sword where you kind of get penalized when you're in our situation, because we're not famous. If we were famous doing some different people eat it up instantly. Or if we had a top like an alias star in our movie, then people go to see it in a heartbeat. But since we don't have any of that stuff along with the ride, we've got to come up with something crazy like NF T's just to get people to even look at it.

Alex Ferrari 50:46
Right? No, absolutely. And that's the problem with the marketplace today. Like you honestly, anything you said, it's so beautifully at the beginning of this conversation is like, there is no barrier to entry to make a movie now anyone can make a feature film you. You've just cobbled together basic understanding of how to craft the film. It's not hard to do. I mean, look at it. It's hard to craft a good film. We all know that. But the technical aspects of making it it's not the cost is not there anymore. Like you couldn't look at my last couple movies I made for under 10 grand each. And they were sold around the world and God and Hulu and all this kind of stuff. So but those were those kind of stories, those kind of movies. But now it's it's getting it's about getting it seen so and what a film school still teaching, they're still teaching you how to make no.

Nathan Kincaid 51:32
Yeah, I mean, now all the information I got for $50,000 in debt, you can find online. So

Alex Ferrari 51:40
listen, I was I was 20. I was $20,000 in debt, I graduated in 90, okay, something 90 something. So, and I the best, the best two things I learned in film school is how to wrap the cable. And because that's an art form, how to wrap cable properly, and how to make a good cup of coffee. And that got me my first few jobs. That other than that, my teacher, my post teacher said, they'll never edit broadcast quality on a computer. Ever. That's what he said, I remember that. So clearly in my in my head. I was like, wow, okay. And I learned on film, too. I learned on film and on online systems like the CMS 3600. I know you how old you guys are younger than you much younger than me. So I'm like probably calling you talking gibberish to you. But like the online tape, tape, the tape and all that kind of stuff is what I learned on. And the first ad that I jumped on was the meet when it was called Media Composer. And it was like 20 to 60 by 260 or so. Like it was like,

Trevor Hawkins 52:42
resolution was horrible. I'm gonna type stuff.

Alex Ferrari 52:45
Know what I mean? Because the block like no, like,

Trevor Hawkins 52:47
we used to have this editing machine in my broadcasting class in high school called a Casablanca and it was like a VHS to VHS editing machine. I don't even know how it works.

Nathan Kincaid 52:59
We had that too. That was one of the original, like nonlinear editing systems. But then I went so I had that in high school. And then I went to Well, I went to undergrad, then I went to grad and they still have flat beds in the basement. Yeah, they were like cutting for real for real. And, and then the digital technology was I remember like things like p two cards and the the media just kept changing every other year. And it was like, I was like, man, I don't want to spend my time trying to keep up with what the fastest memory card is. Like. So I just went all in on the film and studying the classics and studying the industry and stuff like that wouldn't change.

Alex Ferrari 53:39
The lenses changed so fast. The cameras changed so like now you know now like 8k What is it? 10k or 12k that it's like it's obscene. What is going on right now? And I just, I it's like when I'm ready to shoot something I'll look I'm like Alright, what's going on? What do we got? Alright, let's we'll get picked that we'll pick that we'll pick that and the only thing you should invest in ever is lenses because that doesn't change. You still need good glass no matter what the sensor is. But I mean all you need this guy and I love vintage Personally, I love the nice vintage glass. And I'll geek out for you guys if you if you're into into glass. My last film I shot with a Canon optic 5.8 wide is the little brother to the 9.8 which Kubrick shot Clockwork Orange and shining with all those wide shots that they don't fisheye.

Trevor Hawkins 54:28
Wow,

Alex Ferrari 54:29
that's Yeah, I got it. I got it. I put it on the 16 millimeter sensor of the Blackmagic Pocket. The Smart the first Blackmagic Pocket I shot a movie with him spray. It's fantastic.

Trevor Hawkins 54:37
I'm a little jealous of that I shot a lot of wanna on it was cell finance self shot everything and all we could afford was canon L series glass on the EF mountain that we shot on on

Alex Ferrari 54:49
dude all my stuff's on the EF mount EF mount are are 4/3 four thirds, micro four thirds. Oh yeah, I was. Oh yeah, it's fine, dude, it's fine. I shot my last two features. We're on On, on the Sigma 18 to 35 portrait lens, which is a fan, plastic lens, it looks gorgeous. And it's fine, dude, it's fine. People get all caught up with that stuff. And at the end of the day, imagine, imagine this conversation we're having right now, right? And then there's arguments in production like, No, we need this camera, we need this lens, we need this, this this. But when it's done, they're like, now what? Now what I? Where do I get

Trevor Hawkins 55:23
a sculptor friend of mine who says it's so well, he says that the best painters, the best sculptors in the world, can break a twig off of a tree and make a better piece than everybody does got all the finest toolkits available. And that's kind of how I feel with cameras as well, um, I don't keep up. I'm a dp as well, I shot a lot of one and I do commercial stuff. And I don't keep up minute to minute, like you were saying, because I feel like it's more about the artistry of what you put in front of the lens. You gotta know the lenses do. But yeah,

Alex Ferrari 55:54
at a certain point, you're just like, do I need 55k? Like, I don't need a 55k resolution, which we're going to go there eventually, at a certain point you like, how much more you're going to

Nathan Kincaid 56:05
broadcast it against the surface of the moon? Because the kind of surface you're getting?

Alex Ferrari 56:11
I mean, so I want to get your opinion, guys. What do you think the future revenue potentials are with NF T's and independent films? Do you think that is going to become a mainstay? Do you think it's going to be? Do you think it's going to become an oversaturated marketplace again, just like crowdfunding was when because when crowdfunding showed up, the first few films that crowdfunded did extremely well, but then everyone just got burned out on it. So do you feel that NF T's are going to go the same same route?

Trevor Hawkins 56:36
That's a great question, man. And that's the one that everybody's wanting to know right now. Because, sure, I would believe that some of the prices of some of the NF T's have been sold for those astronomical numbers are a bit inflated. But I do believe that this is a new frontier that's here to stay. Like I said, it legitimate legitimizes digital art for the first time in history. And this people aren't going to run away from that this is a new frontier, maybe things will get more valuable. Like if you get in early, maybe you'll be one of those folks that things just raise in value, which is we've already seen happening with us, and just the short amount of time. But yeah, maybe eventually, the digital art space is gonna get so flooded that it's not, we never even thought of it as a get rich quick scheme, we were mainly just looking to get a lot of water out into the world. And this seemed like a great way to do it. And if we could, the end goal would be to fund our next film, like raising money to make a movie number two that's sitting on the table ready to go. That's That's the dream right there. And I don't know, I mean, your guess is as good as mine. I bet I could see a lot of folks running into this space, but it's still so green, it'll be green for a while it will be Yeah, that hell no.

Nathan Kincaid 57:52
Some problems, but it doesn't solve all the problems. And there's still a market saturation problem with film content. There's too much content out there. And I don't know where you're, you know, I'm not advocating for gatekeepers, because because that that can be frustrating at times. And that can be politicized and monopolize. And, and so you know, yeah, it's tough. It's like, if there's a way here, there, there's a revenue model here that exists and that were going to help find, but it still doesn't solve the problem of, well, what happens when you have more films being made, and people can watch? You know what I mean? To me? And, you know, what, I don't know, I think maybe people need to be a little harsher. In some sense. It's like, you know, just because you can make a film doesn't mean that

Alex Ferrari 58:56
you should

Nathan Kincaid 58:56
worthy of people watching it or that you should. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 59:01
Look, it's Look, it's the same thing that happened. And I saw this happen. It's when, when editing systems became affordable, and everyone had a Final Cut, when final cuts showed up, and started disrupting avid because when avid was avid was around, it would cost 50 grand minimum to get into a digital editing system. But then at Final Cut showed up in like, you know, maybe 434 grand you you're up and running as an editor and then all of a sudden, my rate from 50 bucks an hour, 75 bucks an hour as an editor, a freelance editor had to drop down to 25 or 30, because I had a 500. Other Yahoo's who had no idea how to edit anything, but they've they've completely saturated the marketplace. And then I'm like, I'm competing with a guy who just got out of film school, who has barely any understanding, but he says he'll do it for 20 and the producer is such an idiot that he goes, sure I'll let up. I'm gonna pay this guy. Obviously the money makes more sense. But then after he screwed it up, they usually come to me anyway. They're like, Oh, this guy's bended up Can you do, but that was the problem. So it's like, it's great that everyone has access to this stuff. But it's it's the solution and the problem all at the same time, because now it opens up opportunities for people who would have never had opportunities to do it. And then, but it also domitian diminishes opportunities for filmmakers who should get it? And I've had that conversation with some of the guests I've had on the show. Like I talked to Edward burns and not to be a douche ego drops names, but but when I was talking to Ed burns about I go, do you think brothers Macmillan would make it today? And he's like, probably not his color. Do you think Clark's would make it today? Do you think El Mariachi would be seen

Nathan Kincaid 1:00:35
or slacker? Right? Right? But see back then those guys, you know, Kevin Smith and Edward burns, and like even Christopher Nolan with some of his early movies, they had a production barrier to entry, that they really had to want it. They really had to have the dream and the passion and they found a way to get it done. So then they broke through to this space where there, there weren't as many. And so you know, that's what sucks now is that you're actually your barrier, your barrier to entry or your gatekeepers are the distributors. But you have this whole tear of them that are letting everything through that right. You know, I don't know, how do you get? How do you separate the wheat from the chaff? How does the cream rise to the top today?

Alex Ferrari 1:01:20
Yeah, well, yeah, because there's distributors out there like, like you were saying, the throw everything against the wall and see what sticks distributor, they're bringing all the they're they're hustling all these kids and these guys in and gals who are putting these movies in, and they're like, Oh, I can make a quick 5000 off of that. And the filmmaker will never see a dime ever. I'll make a quick 5000. So if I can get 10 of those. Well, that's 50 grand this month. And the way I structure the deals is I never have to pay the filmmaker and after that if it makes any money, whatever, but it probably won't. And that's the and that's and they and they have so much content. And so many films that it's so it's it's it's just it's it's a tough man, this is a tough nut to crack brothers. And this is a tough man.

Nathan Kincaid 1:02:00
Maybe it's tastemakers. Maybe it's going back to the 70s when you had a Pauline Kael or something like that, Roger Ebert

Alex Ferrari 1:02:07
or Roger either

Nathan Kincaid 1:02:08
Yeah, exactly. Roger was doing an amazing job. You know, maybe it's Alex Ferrari, he's got it.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:16
Yeah, I'm not that guy. I'm not that guy. But the but the point is, though, that there has to be something and and there are I mean, look, Criterion Collection does a fantastic job. You know, and a 24 does a fantastic job, but look at look at a 24 slate, they do one movie a month, if that a year, they're the Sundance of distribution at this point. You know, right. If you're lucky enough to get picked up by 24 You know, you're going to get seen and people are now watching an A 24 film because it's a 24 You know, it was like Miramax back in the day, like old Miramax released it must be must be pretty decent, if you know if that's been released. I don't know if that world exists anymore. Man. I just don't i don't think i think it's just too many, too many streaming services, too many options. It's, I think the next the next frontier for filmmakers, is not only to be able to make a good movie, but yeah, you need an audience. You need an audience that follows you from from film to film. And that is the next frontier because filmmakers who are successful are the ones who cultivate audiences, and then also figure out how to generate revenue from multiple revenue streams, which is what I wrote my book and all that stuff by being from shoprunner, about creating multiple revenue streams and NF T's are such a great alternative revenue stream that could be potential. And again, it's you could arguably, crowdfund you're moving on NFT sell distribution rights on NFT. And also art pieces on NF T's. And there's three general, those are three revenue streams that are completely outside the system, completely outside the system.

Trevor Hawkins 1:03:50
To make that yeah, that's, that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to be the case study that can recoup our production costs and turn that around and start funding the next film in real time. That's our end goal with this whole space and NFT world.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:06
That's awesome, man. Well, I'm gonna ask you a few question, guys. I asked all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Trevor Hawkins 1:04:16
I know you want to go first. I know what I would say. Go for it. love what you do. Because to me, there's a big difference between wanting to make good movies and wanting to be the person that's the filmmaker. There's an artist there on one side of it. And then there's kind of like a character type on the other side. And I've in my own personal career. I've never really said this publicly anywhere. So this isn't offensive to anybody. But I've met people that I can tell. They don't really care what the movie is they're making. They just want to be the filmmaker. They want to be the person in the chair. They want to be the they just want to be that person. And I think that the real value that anybody's gonna get out of this career, this industry is gonna be what they create. At the end of the day. My wife is a musician. And she's so self conscious about, oh, what if nobody likes this album when it's getting ready to come out. And I'm like, I don't care if nobody ever hears this album, except you and I, because at the end of the day, when you're 70 years old, All that matters is how you feel about that album, her her entry level to play the game of writing music is a lot lower than making a film. Yeah, that's why we all have to play this lesson, we all got to have our own indie film, hustle. Because if you need an army to make a movie, you actually have to raise a lot of damn money to make a movie. And so we have a little bit different rules there where we have to go inside the industry enough to make it work for ourselves to even be able to make our art, which is kind of infuriating at times, but that's why I say the biggest the biggest piece of advice is love your art love what you do, because at the end of the day, when you're dying, that's all you're gonna have. I just did an arm where am I proud of the pieces that I made? Or did I just make schlocky things to get attention? Oh, no. And before I let Nate before Nathan, I

Alex Ferrari 1:06:14
want to just piggyback on this, what you just said, there's so many filmmakers, and I've met them who want to play the part of the filmmaker wants to play he wants to be or she wants to be the rock star, direct, they want to be turned to let's just call it what it is. They all want to be Tarantino, they all want to be they all want to sit in the chair and tell people what to do and have an walk the red carpet, their red carpet filmmakers. They're not real real filmmakers. They're red carpet filmmakers, they just want to take the pictures, and you know, live the lifestyle. But they don't actually want to do the work. And those guys and gals get they get weeded out. I've just I've been around a few. I've been around a little longer than both of you guys. I've seen it. It happens, the business will weed those guys out because they don't last they can't. It's too hard. This is too hard of a thing to do. You could fake your way, to a certain extent. But after a certain while, if you don't got the goods, I don't care if your last name is Spielberg. Anyone can help.

Trevor Hawkins 1:07:09
Right, right, Nathan?

Nathan Kincaid 1:07:11
Yeah, well, and I'll say something different, because I actually was gonna say something quite similar to that was basically make sure this is really what you want to do. Because it is so hard. But then so something else beyond that. It's probably something people have heard before. But it's like, if you really are committed to this, and you really want to do it, then study the history. Study the craft, look at who came before you. And yes, change the game. But you know, no, no, the groundwork that got you here. And I understand people they watch Citizen Kane, and they're like, okay, you know, I don't get it. I've seen that before. Yeah, but nobody saw before then. You know what I mean? And so it's like, knowing the knowing the evolution of this medium, and not going into things like 3d or, you know, surround screen or something like that, and all that's fine or whatever. But really the medium of cinema and the evolution of juxtaposition and just the craft, like if you're gonna get into this, do something cool. So the rest of us that are also trying to do this can be inspired to like, my favorite stories are like, are like how, after Nolan made memento, he still couldn't get a good deal. And Soderbergh stuck his neck out for Christopher Nolan and was like, yo, you should really use these, you know, I love that kind of stuff. So that would be my just just No, no, the craft no the other artists that came before you and that are in the game and do something different. Do some awesome.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:48
Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life,

Trevor Hawkins 1:08:55
trust your team, that was a big one for me, whenever I was always a one man show and then a lot of water came on and having or when we'd made a lot of one I had a crew of 10 and I was just so in the mindset of I had to do everything and Nathan was constantly reminding me no delegated man hat. Let me do this. Let Cory do that. Let like that was a big lesson for me to learn. And then, most recently, the lesson I just learned was lean into yourself, which is a weird thing to say. Because when I wrote a lot of wanna, it was kind of a love letter to Terrence Malick movies, and I live in a rural Lake town. I'm at the real life like a lot of water right now. And I didn't think that that would be something viable to be appealing to like the rural laketown the rural America vibe would be that appealing to a lot of people in the film industry. But lately, the script I've just written, leans into it. 100% and I'm feel like I'm learning right now in real time to try Just my own unique experience and lean into that more instead of what I think other people want to see.

Nathan Kincaid 1:10:08
Yeah, well, and that just, this is why we work together is because what I was gonna say was, you know, the lesson I learned was you can't do it alone. Now, I learned that, you know, a long time ago, but when you're when you are, you know, a teenager or you're your young 20s and you're full of ego, and you're trying to muster up all the power to be a filmmaker. Like, it's gonna take a team, you know, so looking for those other people that you vibe with that you can that you can create with, like, that's so important. Always keeping an eye out for those people,

Trevor Hawkins 1:10:44
and life partners you can trust.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:48
Amen, guys, I mean, if you can find people that's why like Ron Howard and Clint Eastwood, they worked with the same crew for the last 30 years like they This is like, Ron Howard won't shoot a movie until his first ad is available. Like he just like, I'm not, it's this is the guy like I don't have to worry about anything. I know. It's gonna get taken care of. I do the same thing. I have a group of friends of mine and people I collaborate with all the time. I'm like, I just know I don't have to worry about that. When you have them on the on it. It's It's so valuable. so valuable. And three of your favorite films of all time.

Trevor Hawkins 1:11:20
Oh, and you want to go first, Nathan? Oh, man,

Nathan Kincaid 1:11:23
I'll try to go quick without thinking too much. Trainspotting

Alex Ferrari 1:11:27
urraca and the Godfather. Nice.

Nathan Kincaid 1:11:33
so cliche the last one, but I really do.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:36
And I'm gonna and I'm gonna argue that it's godfather one and two, we just put them together. It's fine. It's fine.

Trevor Hawkins 1:11:43
He's for real. He just had a daughter and we got him a godfather onesy for his daughter.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:49
solid, solid.

Trevor Hawkins 1:11:51
For me, it's easy, because I keep a revolving top 50 movies of all time. Wow. My favorite movies of all time lists. And so when I fall in love with the new movie, it's heartbreaking to throw one of my top 50 off just to keep my different level. That's

Alex Ferrari 1:12:07
a different level of Geek man. I appreciate that. That's completely devil. Like, I mean, the for the geek. I mean, and this is a guy who has a life size Jota sitting behind him. That's a full level gig, man. That's good. I'm impressed.

Trevor Hawkins 1:12:17
Yeah, I gotta stop 50 that I'm pretty religious about and my top three are tree of life, Assassination of Jesse James and No Country for Old Men.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:27
There is a theme there. There is definitely a theme in the filmmaking styles of those films. So I can see what a lot of was gonna be like. But will there be but will there be somebody killing people with Eric Eric? or something? Like, from no country from all that? What does that call? Like a bolt gun or something like that? Yeah, the

Trevor Hawkins 1:12:47
air compressor stun gun thing.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:49
So amazing. What an amazing film God such a great film. Guys, it's been a pleasure talking to you, man. It is. I'm so impressed. And just awesome that you guys are doing what you're doing man. And and anytime I anytime I got someone on the show who was the first one through the door on anything. And it's so rare nowadays to be the first one through the door and anything in our business. It's like, it's a tough, it's a tough thing to get. So I'm, I'm humbled that you came on the show to talk about it and share your adventures with us. Please let us know when you make your first million off of it. And then and then and then you're always welcome back. So thank you guys so much, man. I appreciate it.

Trevor Hawkins 1:13:29
Alex, thanks so much. This has been awesome if anybody wants to check out the trailer.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:33
Sorry, Jesus, of course.

Trevor Hawkins 1:13:35
Yeah, no worries. Yeah, everybody wants to stay up to date with what we're doing. You can purchase NF T's from our website, you can watch the trailer, you can see our posters, you can stay up to date with our releases. Like I said, we're going to be releasing the movie later this fall. It's just a lot of one a movie calm. And if you just Google a lot of one a movie probably any way you can think to spell it. You'll probably find it.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:56
And I'll put that I'll make sure to put that yeah, it's right there for anyone watching. It's not hard to spell Lotawana. So I'll put that in the show notes as well. Thanks again, guys. I appreciate it.

Nathan Kincaid 1:14:08
Thank you, Alex.

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IFH 471: The Complete Guide to NFT in Independent Film (and How to Make Money)


Right-click here to download the MP3

So today we are going to go down the rabbit hole of NFTs. What the heck is an NFT? It is a Non-Fungible Token. Basically, an NFT is a completely original digital file or a digital collectible which is registered on a blockchain ledger just like any cryptocurrency.

But unlike cryptocurrency, like Bitcoin or Ethereum, an NFT is totally unique and because it lives on the blockchain it verifies who is the rightful owner of this one-of-a-kind digital collectible file.

In February 2021, digital artist Peebles sold a digital artwork for $69.3 million at auction. You heard correctly almost $70 million for a digital file. The founder of Twitter, Jack Dorsey, sold his very first tweet as an NFT for $2.9 million.

It took me a minute to understand what these things were and then it clicked. In short, they are digital collectibles. NFTs essentially are digital baseball cards, comic books, Garbage Pail Kids, Funkos, or Pokemon cards. They are just a digital version and in many ways better because you know exactly how many copies exist.

I’ve already had conversations with Hollywood executives that told me that the studios are coming very soon and they are coming hard. Hollywood is beginning to see the value of NFTs and when they come in it will be a feeding frenzy. Imagine Marvel Studios, Harry Potter, Star Wars, or Pixar NFTs. It’s going to be insane.

Could Oscar® winning screenwriters create NFTs for their screenplays? Could a popular filmmaker create NFT short films? Would you buy an NFT from Chris Nolan, David Fincher, Aaron Sorkin, or Quentin Tarantino?

The NBA is selling “moments” as NFTs through NBA Top Shots. Basically, they are selling highlight clips as NFT and are killing it. Fans of the NBA are gobbling these NFTs as fast as they are released. I really think there is now one doing NFTs better than the NBA right now.

Musicians are having amazing success selling NFTs directly to their fans. This is turning the established music industry on its head. NFTs are essentially killing off the middle man. No more label, just a direct relationship with the artist’s fans.

The other amazing thing about NFTs is that the artist continues to make money on every sale of the NFT forever. Let me explain. When an artist creates an NFT by “minting” it. Minting is the process of create the digital file (NFT) and placing it on the blockchain. The artist then sets the residual percentage every time the NFT sells.

So if I mint a short film and sell it for $500. I get $500. Now, if the new owner sells it 2 years from now for $10,000 I get 10% of that sale. Every time that NFT is resold I get my cut. All transactions are transparent. All on the blockchain.

So how can filmmakers make money? There are so many options because NFTs are in their infancy. Everyone is trying to figure out how to use them in indie films.

Indie Film legend Kevin Smith is selling the distribution rights to his new horror anthology Killjoy. He has even created his own NFT Studio called JAY & SILENT BOB’S CRYPTO STUDIO PRESENT SMOKIN’ TOKEN NFTS. Here’s some info on Kevin’s new endeavor.

Since their first appearance in CLERKS over twenty-five years ago, Jay and Silent Bob have been selling out to the world of collectibles! From t-shirts to toys, the stoner duo’s likenesses have been stuck on both tacky and tremendous trinkets treasured around the globe!

Now Jay and Silent Bob blaze into blockchain with crypto-collectibles called Smokin’ Tokens!

From Jay & Silent, Bob’s Crypto Studio comes the first in a series of NFT’s that celebrate the many movies of New Jersey’s least likely heroes. The inaugural Smokin’ Tokens commemorate the pair’s latest cinematic adventure,

JAY AND SILENT BOB REBOOT – featuring amazing art by fan-favorite  John “Captain RibMan” Sprengelmeyer!

You gotta love Kevin Smith. He’s always looking for new ways to connect with his fans. His first collection of NFTs almost completely sold out. There might be something here boys and girls.

Some other ideas are:

  • Selling the distribution rights to your film in shares like the indie film Lotawana
  • Create  an NFT for a short film to finance it
  • Sell NFT collectibles from the film
  • Fundraise your budget with NFTs
  • Anyone with a fanbase or that can tap into a fanbase can and should create NFTs
  • Social Media Influencers, YouTubers, any company with IP that has fans should be all over NFTs.

These are just some ideas. I decide to throw my hat in the ring and created an experiment. I minted a few NFTs for my first short film BROKEN and some “legacy NFTs” of the first-ever filmmaking tutorials ever uploaded to YouTube. Here is the description of one of the NFTs.

SHORTCODE - SOUND FX

Need Sound Effects for your short or feature film project?

Download 2000+ sound effects designed for indie filmmakers & their projects for free.

I decide to throw my hat in the ring and created an experiment. The Indie Film Hustle NFT Collection. I minted a few NFTs for my first short film BROKEN and some “legacy NFTs” of the first-ever filmmaking tutorials ever uploaded to YouTube. Here is the description of one of the NFTs.

This NFT is called Muzzle Flash Breakdown and is one of the first filmmaking tutorials to ever be uploaded to YouTube. It was uploaded on August 28, 2006, by filmmaker, author, and Indie Film Hustle Podcast host Alex Ferrari from his 2005 award-winning short film BROKEN. 

It was taken from the best-selling DVD of the film. That DVD was one of the first indie short films to ever create a massive collection of tutorials and making of videos that explained how to make a low-budget independent film with off-the-shelf software and digital consumer cameras.  

This is part of a limited series of filmmaking tutorials that were uploaded to YouTube from the short film BROKEN. All the videos were uploaded and released on the same day in 2006. The external link attached to this NFT will show the original upload to YouTube.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFPoBZY5BrA

When you purchase this NFT you will also gain access to the short film BROKEN, the entire collection of tutorials and commentary tracks via private link and passcode. You will also receive the original QuickTime file that was uploaded to YouTube.

To access my NFTs go to: www.ifhnft.com

I released three of 6 of the total filmmaking tutorials I uploaded on YouTune back in Aug 2006. If these sell out I’ll upload the rest and maybe some of my other popular short films I directed over the years. I wanted to give you an example of what an independent film NFT looked like and this is totally an experiment to see what happens.

Maybe I’ll never sell an NFT, maybe I sell them three years from now or maybe they will sell out in 15 min. Who knows. What I am excited about is the potential of what this could mean for the indie filmmaking community.

UPDATE: In less than 72 hours I sold out of my first ever NFTs. I just added the second part to the film tutorial series as well as the FIRST Indie Film Hustle Podcast Episode NFT. Click here to check it out.

In this episode, I break down everything you need to know about NFTs, how to make money with them, and more. Enjoy!

Alex Ferrari 0:02
Now, there's been a lot of talk lately about this thing called NFT's. And it's going to revolutionize the world of the artist and being able to put the money back into artists pockets. And of course, when I heard about this, I was like, Well, what does this mean for us as independent filmmakers. So I wanted to put together an episode that would be a guide to all independent filmmakers out there on what NFT's are, and the many different ways you can use them to possibly generate revenue for your film or fundraise for your film or distribute your film and so many other things and we'll talk about that in this episode. But let's first off talk about what an NFT is. An NFT is a non fungible token, which means that is a unique digital file that is registered on the blockchain. Now before I continue with NFT, I need to explain to you what blockchain is. Now, many of you might have heard the term blockchain associated with cryptocurrency like Bitcoin, or aetherium, or Dogecoin, or some many other cryptocurrencies out there.

The technology of blockchain is revolutionary, and I personally believe it will transform the world, if not as big or bigger than the internet did. I know that's a very big statement. But you'll understand in a minute, what blockchain is basically, is a ledger. It is a public ledger, that cannot be messed with hacked, adjusted, and it's completely transparent for everybody to see. So every time there's a transaction, it gets put on a blockchain, and then that blockchain is registered there. And then the next page in that ledger, let's say, which we call a block will be the next one. And then other transactions happen there, and then another one and another one, and it goes on for infinity.

But you can't go back to page two or three and adjust something or erase a number or change something, because it will screw up the entire blockchain. And it's on it's impossible to do. So Bitcoin has been around for 13 years since 2008, when it was first released. And I was the first time the concept of blockchain was presented to the world. In that time, no one has been able to hack, modify or adjust the Bitcoin blockchain. It is not possible to do it is as perfect of an idea as anything that's come out of humanity in such a long time. And I don't want to go into so deep into blockchain but that is the basis of what NFT's are because NFT's live on a blockchain. Now when I first heard about NFT's, I was just like what I don't I don't understand what it is, is a digital file. Why are people spending millions of dollars for these digital files?

Well, in February 2021, there was a digital artist named Peebles who sold a digital artwork for $69.3 million in an auction. And the founder jack Dorsey of Twitter, sold his first tweet for $2.9 million dollars. And it is essentially a digital collectible. Now, I know a lot of you out there who are probably either my vintage or older or might not get this and I'm going to break it down for that part of the audience right now, because the younger crowd might understand what this is. It is essentially a baseball card. It is a comic book. It is a garbage pail kid. It is a a Pokemon card. They're just collectibles. But unlike those examples I gave you where there is hundreds if not 1000s of rookie cards out there for a baseball player.

There's only one that you could make multiple versions of it, you could do a limited run of you know, 1000 or 100 or 50 if you like, but they are digital collectibles. So in a lot of people are asking Well, why would you pay money for something that you could just download a JPEG off online for? Or buy a printer by buy a copy of it and put it up on your wall? Was there same reason why people buy cop posters and prints in limited edition prints of artist or they buy replicas of Van Gogh paintings, and put it on their walls? Because limited edition prints are the same thing as NFT's you can or if it's not limited edition prints, you want the actual print? So what would you rather own? Would you rather own the Mona Lisa?

Or would you rather own a poster of the Mona Lisa? And that's what this all is. These are that's what an NFT is it is a digital collectible. Now how is this going to work for us as independent filmmakers and screenwriters? How is that going to work? Well, let me give you an example. Let's say that Van Gogh painted a painting. And he went and sold it to a art gallery for $500. Because no one knew who Vincent van Gogh was, at the moment, he sold that painting to a gallery, someone at the gallery said this guy has some talent, let me buy this thing for 500 bucks, then fast forward five years, and Van Gogh is the biggest artist in the world, let's say. And that $500 print of that $500 painting that they bought, they go off and sell it for $30 million at auction.

Well, that's great for the the owner of the original painting. But that does nothing for the artist, the artist does not get to reap any of those rewards. And that has been the problem with art for the longest time in the art world because the artist never gets to, you know, you know, wet his beak, as they say or wet her beak, as they say, when it comes to upsells, or future revenue generated from their art. Well, the thing with NFT's is is as the artists you control what you do with your art. So if I'm an artist, I'll put my let's say digital painting up as an NFT.

And there's only one of them, and I'll auction it off, or I'll sell it at a fixed price and someone buys it for that. So let's say I put a poster up of one of my movies, and somebody out there decides to spend $1,000 for it. And I'm like great, you now own that NFT I don't own it anymore. You own it. Now let's say in a couple years, my art starts selling crazy people will really pop really want my poster art and all that kind of stuff. Well then say the original owner of that first NFT that they that was bought for $1,000 they put it back on the market and they sell it for $100,000.

Well, because I created that NFT I could put whatever percentage it is I want but because it's on the blockchain every single time that NFT is sold 10% comes back to me. That's the standard rate for this. So you could do 20% you could do 5% but standard percentages are 10%. So from here until eternity, every single time that NFT is sold somewhere else. Anywhere, anytime. instantly. I get 10% of whatever sells. So if this, this art continues to grow in value, so someone bought it for 100,000. A year later, they sell it for a million, I get 10%. In two years later, they sell it for 10 million, I get 10%, and so on, and so on and so on. So that way the artists still is able to generate revenue from their art for their lifetime.

This is revolutionary for artists in this world. Now, how does this translate to independent filmmakers? Well, when I got when I finally understood that this was basically a baseball card, a digital collectible version of a baseball card or a comic book, I'll use this analogy. Imagine that Steven Spielberg created an NFT for his shirt first short film called amblin. And that was his first short film, and he put it out as an NFT and he sold it for $100. That would be the equivalent of a Mickey Mantle rookie card. How much would ambulance shortfilm be worth as an NF? T. Today?

How much would it have been worth when jaws hit on Raiders of the Lost Ark hit or when he hit? Or when jurassic park or Schindler's List hit and all these other milestones in Steven Spielberg's career, what would that short film be worth? Would it be worth $5? Or would you be worth hundreds of 1000s of dollars? Possibly millions? That is what we're talking about here, guys. So imagine a world where filmmakers are treated like baseball players, or like your favorite comic book character, the first appearance of spider man is worth millions of dollars. But as the career goes on, let's say we keep that example going. Or I'll switch over to a contemporary director as well. Let's talk about Chris Nolan.

So Chris Nolan make he made his first feature film called the following. If we if we would have had an NFT for the following, how much would that NF t be worth today? So after that, he creates an NFT for momento. How much would that NFT be worth today. And he continues to create NFT's per movie per project that he makes throughout his career for people to buy, trade and sell, because they are now buying into him as an artist. Just like you would buy a rookie card for Mickey Mantle, but then you would also buy every year that he's playing baseball, you would buy that year's card, the equivalent would be with filmmakers. Imagine if you owned Reservoir Dogs NFT. Quinn, Tarantino's first feature film or Pulp Fiction or Django Unchained are in glorious bastard. Imagine if you had the rights, or excuse me if you owned that NFT and that could be one NFT.

Or it could be a limited edition of maybe 100 nF T's or 1000 NFT's but that's all the NFT's that will ever be made of that piece of art. Now, that's that's the way I've been able to wrap my head around this seeing like, Where can we go with this? Where can independent filmmakers go now, that is one way you can use NFT's Kevin Smith is now currently using an NFT to sell all distribution rights to his next film. Now, that means that the person who buys that NFT owns the movie owns it and can exploit it and do whatever they want with it from here until eternity.

Now, if they ever sell these rights, Kevin gets 10%. And the producers of the film gets 10%. That's one way of going about it. And also with buying the rights Kevin included in that NFT full marketing, promotions, interviews, they're gonna help the film whoever buys those rights to get it out into the world. And he has a stipulation as well that you have to release it, you can't just sit on it and just go Haha, no one will ever see this movie.

So that is another way. We have a up and coming interview with the first feature film ever independent film to ever sell NFT's for an independent film. And that film is called Lata Juana with Trevor, the director is going to be on as well as his producing partner, we're going to talk all about how he did it. And what they did, essentially was sell shares in their movie.

So you're selling shares as NFT so now every time there's money to be made from anytime there's money that comes in these, these people who own the NFT's will get a piece of the movie. So there's that's another way to make money is with NFT's and independent films. Even Another way is to essentially crowdfund your film with NFT's meaning that you can put 1000 shares for me or for your film as NFT's, and people could start buying them.

And you can set whatever price you want. You can auction it if you like. And you can raise capital to make your movie, if you have an audience if you have people who will believe in the project you're doing and so on. But this is unlike crowdfunding. It's they're just buying shares in your movie, and they can do that. Now, how is this all done? This is all done using cryptocurrency. So the reason why NFT's work it's not because they're sending you a check every single time a sale comes in, it all happens automatically on the blockchain, to your to your cryptocurrency wallet, usually it's using etherium, which is a whole other conversation.

But that is the that is the cryptocurrency that they're using for NFT's right now. But the thing is, guys, the NF T's right now are in their infancy, everyone's just trying to figure out what to do with it, what what's going on with it, how to do it, some people are selling NFT's with physical things with it, they're selling experiences with their NF t. So if you buy my NFT, you also get a hardcopy version of it. And you'll also get, you know, a conference call with me and you can maybe get an autographed picture from the store and they just constantly are packaging things together. So nobody really knows what to do with the film and how to with the with the NFT's and how to actually market it because it's all brand new.

This is essentially the internet in 1996. Okay, that's what NFT's and blockchains are right now the concept of a blockchain, people are starting to figure out imagine in 1995, if I told you to go go to this URL, nobody would have understood a lot of people would have not understood what you're talking about. There was a group of people that did, but many people wouldn't. It's the same thing. Now people are like, what is cryptocurrency? I don't know, what is a blockchain? What does that what is an NFT?

These are things that will be part of our societal vernacular, in the coming years. These things everybody will understand what an NFT is just like everybody now knows what www dot blah, blah, blah, calm means, or what at? the at symbol is for email or what email even was trying to explain what email was to somebody who didn't understand it? It's the same thing that's going on right now with NFT's blockchain and cryptocurrency and I promise you one thing the moment the studio's understand what's going on with NFT's they are going to jump in because what would you think the NFT for the latest Star Wars movie is?

Or the limited edition stuff that they're going to put out for the next Star Wars movie? Or for the next Marvel movie? What would the Avengers end game be worth as an NFT? What would Iron Man's NFT be worth and all sorts of different products and NFT's that they can create limited editions for all of these digital assets that they can create an auction off? to not only sell, make money with the actual NFT. But the marketing? Can you imagine that Disney puts up the Avengers end game NFT. And there's only one and you get to auction it, I promise you that will go from millions of dollars. And the press that they will get from that in addition to just the the money that they're going to get is going to be invaluable.

So the moment that the studio's figure this out there it's going to be they're going to just get everyone's going to go into it. Because then they're going to go into the Casa Blanca NFT, The Three Stooges, NFT's, the the jaws, NFT's and they're going to go into their archives, I'm going to pull up all of the greatest movies that they have in their catalogue and start creating NFT's from those films, because movie fans are going to want to own a digital collectible from their favorite movies. I'm telling you, this is going to happen. Can you imagine the Criterion Collection NFT of Seven Samurai? Can you imagine the Criterion Collection version of Rashomon or of any of their Chasing Amy or whatever movies that they have the NFT rights to? You mean to tell me that no Criterion Collection, collector out there will not buy the NF T of their favorite films. I'm telling you, this is going to be something it might be nothing, but I truly truly doubt it. Now I know a lot of you are asking where do I set these up? Where can I actually sell these things? Where can I create an NFT? How do you how do you create an fd?

Well, there's popular marketplaces like open sea, rare herbal and mental mental is the one that has in vestment from Mark Cuban Ashton Kutcher and a couple of other big shots. And at NBA top shots, sells pro basketball moments, like highlights, like you own the highlight from LeBron doing this, or Michael Jordan doing that. Major League Baseball is starting to finally get into it as well. And they're creating NFT's for different moments and things like that. And they're selling out like their people are going crazy for this stuff. And I know a few of you asking, Is this a fad?

Is this a bubble is it's just a waste? I personally don't believe so. I think that it is here to stay. It's going to change. But I think not only do I think blockchain is here to stay, blockchain will be here, and will be part of every fabric of our existence, in my opinion, on the digital world. In the next coming years, there's things that are being worked out things, they're trying to figure out technology wise, and in bandwidth things, the exact same stuff that people were talking about when the internet showed up.

And if you old enough to know what it was like to dial up internet through the free AOL disk, that you would get an A magazine and a computer magazine to get access to the internet, how slow it was. And nobody really understood what a website was how to build it properly. jpg wasn't even a thing then. So pictures took forever to download, all those things needed to be figured out. And that is what's happening right now with blockchain. And if t is just another thing that you could put on the blockchain, there's so many things that can be put on the blockchain.

But NFT is that so I personally don't believe that NF T's are fad, I think it's here to stay. I think it will change and maneuver and, and and morph into something else in the coming months and years moving forward. But I think it's here to stay. And it's a very exciting time, because it's something new, and it gives power back to the creator to the artists. And I mean, right now, the music industry, musicians and artists are putting out albums and NFT. And they have complete control of the money flow. And labels now are putting in their contracts that they own NFT rights as well. I promise you distribution contracts are going to start coming up that we want NFT rights. This is a thing, it's here to stay in my opinion.

So if you want to see an example of it, I decided to put a test study together. And I launched my own NFT's. Now I have the distinction unless somebody else tells me different. And I've done research and I can't find any others. I was the first person to ever upload a filmmaking tutorial on YouTube. I cannot find one any where else. I was the first one it was released August 28 2006. Now, there are six total videos I uploaded to YouTube. And I actually put in the NFT. A link to the YouTube video for proof and a provenance, if you will, of one this file was actually uploaded.

So when you buy this NFT, you will have access and you will own one of the original six uploaded filmmaking tutorials on YouTube. I only uploaded three of them currently I wanted to see what happened. And there's three other ones if you check out the YouTube page, you'll see that there's three other ones as well. I also think I have the first movie trailer ever uploaded to YouTube due because I can't find it. I beat Sony Pictures by like, a couple months of when they before they opened up their YouTube channel so I don't think I'm the only I'm the first movie trailer ever but I think I'm one of the first for sure. But right now I can't find any other any other movie trailers because now I actually uploaded those much earlier.

I forgot what date I did, but that's not an NF t But anyway, that's regardless. So that's what we call a legacy. Nf t. a legacy NF T is essentially the first ever of its kind. So the first filmmaking tutorial NFT that would be mine. A lot of wanna would be the first independent feature film ever sold as an NF t in the history of of NFTs. So those are what they call legacy NFT's so like the first tweet ever sold as an NFT is a legacy NFT. The first comic book The first baseball card, the first Garbage Pail kid, these are first Pokemon card, these aren't legacy, NFT. So those are things that you should look out for as well. So I put these three up, made it really affordable right now currently because aetherium has gone down in price is 65 bucks. If Ethereum, the cryptocurrency goes back up, when I put first posted them, it was like 125 bucks. So it went down a bunch. So now they're 65 bucks, 64 bucks.

So it will range depending on when you buy it. Now, obviously 65 bucks is not going to make or break me, I'm using this as an experiment, I want to see what happens. I want to see if there's anybody out there in the indie film hustle tribe that finds value in that. And you're not only buying that NFT because of its legacy, but you're also buying it because I put it up. And hopefully one day, I will do other things in my career where these will become much, much more valuable. I have no idea. We'll see. But it's just a really interesting experiment. And another NFT I put up was to my first short film broken, which many of you know and listen to my podcast? No, it was in over 200 film festivals, it was reviewed by Roger Ebert.

It was basically the start of me even thinking about doing something like indie film hustle back then where I created a DVD that sold 5000 copies made over 100,000 bucks as a whole. All sorts of stuff, I'll put links to all the story if you haven't heard that story in the in the show notes, but I put it up as an NFT. To see what you know, if you believe that one day, I will do something artistically that will become more valuable. or for whatever reason, I become more popular. And this becomes more valuable. It might be a good investment. I don't know, this is a weird conversation, because I'm the artist saying hey, maybe one day I'll be big guys. And this will be worth a lot of money. I have no idea. This is an experiment.

Okay, I have no idea. But I wanted to kind of show you have put an example up there. So you can see what what it is and how to do it. And what you know, we'll see what happens, you know, I don't know, I have no idea what's gonna happen in the future with my career, this will be worthless, or this will be worth something or whatever I don't know. But I wanted to show you guys I wanted to give you an example of what this was. So if you do buy the NFT, to my first short film broken, not only do you get the NFT, the actual digital NFT file for the original collectible, if you will have broken, but you also get, I also threw in a bunch of physical stuff. So I'll send this stuff out to you.

So you'll also get access to it digitally. So all of the special features all the other things, including those first tutorials that I upload won't be sent to you digitally. And you'll have access through indie film, hustle TV, you will also get a copy of the DVD signed by me. And you'll also get a lipstick and bullets which is the blu ray really rare because it was only released very little a lipsticks and bullets, blu ray, which has broken and three of my other feature films that they put into a compilation, blu ray that was released a god like eight years ago, as well. So you'll get that. In addition to that plus, you'll also get a digital collection of never before released poster designs that I created October 22 2004. And those are the original files as well.

So you'll get a bunch of stuff when you buy this NFT. Currently, as of this recording, the NF T is running $264.60 that will change depending on the rate of, of aetherium. So if these sell out, I'll put up the other three filmmaking first filmmaking tutorials on YouTube. So there's you'll have the entire collection of six up there. And then I also have three other short films that I made that are red princess blues, references blues animated which have Lance Hendrickson in it, the late great, Robert Forster, and I'll put those up as well as NF T's and those are and if those ever became a feature film, which I want to make one day, they might become valuable.

I don't know, again, 250 bucks, 50 bucks, it's not making a break. And you guys, I'm just putting it out there to see what happens. It's gonna be a really interesting experiment. Nobody might buy it right now. It might sell out in 15 minutes. I have no idea. So I'm really curious about it. So how did I put them up? Where did I put them up? I put them up on mental. So mental dot app. The reason why I use mental is because there was no cost to put them up. If you use any of the other platforms. Those other platforms are going to charge you what is called a gas fee.

A gas fee is the cost to actually have someone verify the transaction on the Ethereum blockchain. And gas fees go up and down and they're really expensive sometimes, and sometimes they're more affordable. It all depends on where aetherium is at the time. This is one of the problems that you're trying Figure out, we're trying to figure out right now, we're not we but the whole community is trying to figure out how to streamline this. So it becomes more mainstream. You could also buy with cryptocurrency, you could also buy with a credit card. So that's why also like mental as well, I know a lot of wanna use open sea to put up theirs, which is probably one of the biggest, but minimal is up there as well. And there's no cost to get things up there. So if you want to put some tests up to see what's going on, you can join me there are no other independent films up there.

Right now, guys, we are at the beginning stages of this stuff, guys, I don't think it's going to go away, I might be wrong, but I don't think it's going to go away. So that's why I jumped on and threw my hat in the ring to see what would happen the same way I've done so many times before in my career, like the YouTube videos and see what would happen. And I had a website back in 9798, making money online. And I always try to be ahead of the game, I'm always trying to see what's around the corner. And I think NFT's are around the corner, it's going to take a minute for everyone to figure out what to do, how to do it, how to set up standards, all that kind of stuff.

And also putting things up as an NFT, you do need a little bit of technical knowledge, I'm not gonna lie to you, it's not the easiest process in the world. But I learned it, you know, in a couple hours watching a bunch of YouTube videos, and tutorials on how to do it on mental mental is pretty easy, not that complex to do, you just have to educate yourself a little bit about it.

And there's tons and tons of tutorials on youtube for free on how to update things and understand what gas fees are, and all this kind of stuff. So you can learn all that stuff fairly easily. But it is doable. So I hope this episode has, you know, lit a fire under your butts to see if there's something else that you can do maybe another revenue stream maybe another way to raise money another way to, to distribute your film and get it out there into the world. There's so many just the opportunities are endless. And the options are endless with NF T's you can really do a whole lot with it. So let's all see what happens. You know, I'm really interested. Now if you want to purchase, or at least look at my NF T's, all you have to do is go to IFH and f t that's like indie film, hustle, IFH and FT.com. And it'll take you straight to my, my collection of NFT's and let's see what happens.

Again, big huge experiment, I'm expecting that no one's gonna buy anything, and nothing is gonna happen. Because I just don't know, I just don't know. So I'm really excited to see what happens. And then the next week, week and a half, we're gonna have some great guests on talking about NFT's talking a little bit about blockchain, and all that kind of stuff. So I really wanted to kind of give you guys a nice, a nice collection of information about this stuff. So just keep an eye out for all of those. So if you want to get links to all the stuff I've been talking about in here, and I'll throw some tutorials and how to get some stuff done and everything. I'll put those in the in the show notes as well at indie film hustle.com Ford slash 471.

Thank you so much for listening, guys. I really hope this, a lot of you come back to this episode. And really, it helps you guys. I hope this helps everybody out there. I hope I want to hear if you as a filmmaker, put out some NFT's and you sell them, call me I want to know about it. I want to see how you're doing. I want to hear stories about how you're using NFTs and what's going on with NFT's in in your process in your workflow with your project either at the beginning of a project in the middle of a project at the end of the project, whatever I want to see what you guys in the tribe are doing. Reach out to me You guys know how to get a hold of me online. through the website. All you got to do is email me and message me and me or somebody from my team. We'll get you back but I am very interested to see what happened. So thank you again for listening guys.

As always, keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive. Stay safe out there. And I'll talk to you soon.

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Download FREE Storyboard Template + Tutorials

The movie ‘Mad Max: Fury Road’ is one replete with actions, blood, and gore. It tells a story of how a vicious and tyrannical leader Immortal Joe is relieved of his secret harem containing five beautiful princesses.

Check out this brilliant video by Mr Nerdista.

These princesses were kidnapped as children and kept as breeding machines for Immorta Joe. However, his most trusted war leader, Furiosa, betrays him by carting away with his prized possessions. Furiosa, the warrior woman, tries to take the women to her childhood home -the green place- where she was also kidnapped. The road to ‘paradise’ is fraught with danger. There is no hiding place as Furiosa, her side kick, Max and the women try to escape the tyrannical warlord. An angry leader who is hard on their tail along with thousands of fierce armed warriors whose only rule is to kill the betrayer and return the harem unharmed.

This reverting movie has a lot in common with comic strips and superhero films. It uses explicit scenes to portray the plot. The film was created mostly from the story boarding style of about 3,500 different comic books. The writer George Miller, and his artists worked for two years, tirelessly building the action in drawings before adding any form of dialogue with the story board. ‘Fury Road’ is majorly created through art and sketches. If you view most of the scenes in the movie alongside with the story board, it would seem like a comic book adaptation.

To prioritize the images or visuals of the film, George Miller lets his characters speak only when necessary. Meaning, the movie is all about action and less about dialogue. Unlike conventional movies where dialogue is used to paint pictures, Fury Road is the opposite. The film uses images to replace words, a nuance employed in comic books. Even Miller’s story board contains no words at all.

Another way Miller has been able to make this movie otherworldly is the unusual names he gave his characters. The names like Furiosa, Immortal Joe, Nux, etc., make them seem unreal, almost like they are their alter egos or aliases just like how comic heroes are.

He portrays Immorta Joe as a villainous character who aims to deny his people of natural resources. Making them beggarly, diseased, and dependent on his benevolence. His minions are kept loyal, with a ridiculous promise of an afterlife that rivals paradise and fear of retribution if they disobey him. Just like the evil villains in popular comics such as Spider Man.

Mad Max: Fury road relies heavily on the elements of a superhero movie or a comic book even though it’s neither. But, it just as well might be seen as the best of either cadre.

It is said that the movie Mad Max Fury Road has finally been made into a comic strip to the delight of its fans. The influence of storyboarding in this movie is epic.

Download FREE Storyboard Template + Tutorials

For many directors, storyboard is imperative to the filmmaking process. I created over 200 storyboards for my first short film BROKEN. For that project I found it to be extremely helpful. Check out how my storyboards ended up in the film.

If you are new to directing and need a better understanding of shot selections, storyboard and what they mean to your storytelling process what the video below.

I always found it to be a pain to look or create my own storyboard template. Well, you have enough to worry about. You’re directing a film for God sake and the last thing you need to worry about is the damn storyboard template so I did the work for you.

There’s a storyboard template to fit any creative desire below. Happy filmmaking!

Download your storyboard templates here.

Spoiler

Storyboard Template

Another choice when it comes to angles is also the question of, are you going to show an upshot? Where you don’t see the ground at all because you’re just looking up into the sky or are you going to show the down shot? And you not be asking yourself, okay, Sherm, what is it, which do I want to show? Well here’s a good part is you get to choose and the whole point to choosing, is that as long as you have good reason for what you’re going to be choosing. You’re probably going to be doing the right choice.

Here is what I’m talking about. If every one of these choices has meaning behind it and usually it has to do with that camera being representing us and our attention. And so if you imagine that your story involves somebody walking up and looking of a tall building, that’s going to be part of the story. For example, let’s say this guy is fresh out of the sticks he’s and never been to New York City before. He’s looking up at giant building.

Well that story is going to tell us something, that’s just going to, we’re probably going to want to draw something like this, which is from his vantage point or his P.O.V, which is his point of view. What point of view does is it’s really the heart of getting us as a viewer to identify with character, because if we identify with the character then what happens to the character on the screen is going to matter to us. And that again is just the heart of making that connection with the viewer. So this choice of angle and composition is really, really important for getting an emotional involvement with the viewer.

So again the beginning, when we’re talking about cutting, we’re talking about we need to choose what to shall and that’s pretty much just information. We haven’t decided yet how we’re going to show it, but an angle composition, we’re talking about now how to show it. And we’re getting more into the character of more into their point of view. For characters using up shots and down shots quite frequently if you have two different sized characters in a show. When they’re talking to each other, this character is generally going to be looking up at this character.

And this character is generally going to looking down at this character. So frequently your characters are going to be drawn in up shots and slide down trust pending on their size. Well, a lot of people get really thrown when they try to draw up shots of characters. For example, they may try to draw the underside of her nose and have difficulty with the character’s features drawing from such an unusual angle, and for example you can see the ceiling and the walls of the room. And what I wanted to show you is that frequently, especially with animation.

These kind of up shots can be done much more simply despite implying the upshot using the background. So if your character normally looks like this in a three-quarter view from straight on, just by adjusting the background a little bit and showing that same ceiling. You have a slight upshot, but without the weirdness that can come with trying to draw on upshot, a character that hasn’t really been designed for that.

So this right here is something that could save you quite a lot of time and trouble because generally you’re not going to have that kind of extreme angle where this one will read just the same. The same will follow for another character if you’re working in a down shot. If you have a little character like a mouse, very frequently you’re going to be looking way down on them, well you could spend a lot of time trying to figure out what he looks like from that position, but he’s going to look probably pretty weird and pretty off model.

So again, it’s just as easy, and you’ll see this in a lot of kind of cartoons that have these sort of characters that you can just draw that same character from more of a standard point of view, but still show the floor to represent a down shot. This is a total miracle when it comes to trying to draw characters on model.

I’ve just seen so many people struggle and struggle with this, because most model sheets that animation will show you is going to show characters from pretty much a straight on view, but in 360 degrees. Again even if you’re work on live-action. These kind of shots could be very difficult to draw. Drawing up shots on characters and down shots tend to be a lot more challenging and if you’re wanting to just get a convincing shot that reads very clearly, you can just use this technique of manipulating the background.

So again that is for down shots and up shots and again this has to do with who’s mind it is that we’re getting into. So when we see this sort of shot, the viewers aren’t thinking about it very much, but they are going to get the feeling subliminally that they’re looking from a low point of view, because we can see that ceiling. You might even put a little, it might be a little lamp up there.

There might be other background elements, like a picture frame or maybe a lamp on a table. Regarding composition, I would also stress that other decorative elements like that when put into a background are there to still support the scene, background design is one of many things that you’re going to have to deal with and an artist that draws flat or unconvincing or cluttered backgrounds are just going to have a difficult time getting people who like their work. So this is kind of arrangement of background details that you would want to have.

And even if you really look at the schematic of this room and you thought oh no you know what that light, that light should really be here and there’s a chain hanging down like right there. Well these kind of elements start touching and tangent against the main character will really start to distract the viewer and they are totally distracting. And we’ll talk about this other topic of tangents.


Today we are doing storyboarding, which is one of my favorite parts. Because you’re making the movie before you make the movie. I absolutely love it. We tried to capture the whole process of making those boards to show you guys so let’s not delay any longer Shall we jump right into it.
So I’m working on storyboards.

Now we’ve been working on it for a while. First, of course, comes a shot list and things like that. And once I have a clear vision of what I want the thing to look like, it’s time for me to board now storyboarding isn’t a completely mandatory thing for you to do. There are some directors who don’t most do storyboard. Some don’t do it before time, like Ridley Scott will board what he wants to shoot that day the day before or on the way into shoot the actual film, but some will board way in advance and get really detailed with it. I’m the type of person who likes to board every single shot in the film.

The reason I like to do this is because I set such a clear plan before time I make my entire film before we ever step on set. And by doing that, it is really easy for me to throw everything out the window when I want to because there’s a clear plan in place, I don’t have to be stressed out or constantly thinking how I’m going to do the next thing I have something to fall back on and this structure to work off of.

So I can really get creative and do whatever I want. After that. So when I bored before, anytime I would do storyboarding before, I was always doing it by myself, I didn’t really have a budget or the network to bring somebody in to help me do storyboarding. And you can do that if you don’t have an artist or you can draw, you can still do your boards or stuff like taking pictures, and making your storyboard through pictures.

There’s an app on iPhone called cinematic, which we’ve talked about on the show before which is awesome and has everything you need to make a storyboard. Just go around your house with your friends, getting the clear idea of what it is you want your film to look like. It’s really, really helpful, especially when you’re working with a crew to be able to just show people not try to explain but actually just show this is what I’m talking about. Another great one is frame forge 3d. That’s an awesome program where you can actually find your shots.

And once you have your shots set up, it also makes camera plots for you. You can do different frame sizes, you can do different lenses, you can also get all the measurements, if you know where you’re shooting, you can get the measurements of the room and build it exactly, you’ll know all the heights of your camera. And what I love most about frame forge 3d is the fact that you can find shots this way.

Like it’s a great thing to just move the camera around this virtual world and find the exact shot you want to come in zooming out, you can really learn different focal lengths and what what they’ll make that scene feel like so there’s a lot to that program that’s really beneficial. But with this one, I really wanted to work with a storyboard artist because I was convinced by Fred Dan that that was the way to go when you’re directing, especially with your first big project working with a storyboard artist, he says is the first time that you direct your film, and I gotta say he’s 100% right, having to give my vision to another person verbally for them to put it down visually, has really helped me I mean, I’ve had to justify shots and the way a scene played out, that made me completely rethink the scene because I was wrong.

Once I was seeing it there. And I was explaining why one moment happened to the next, I found out that this was something I was gonna change on set. And given that we only have a certain amount of time to shoot, we’re having a crunch crunch our days, because of the budget, we got to keep the budget down. But working with so many people to find that issue onset was something like this would really be difficult for the production, I mean, something like tell or losses, that’s fine, we’re there with a bunch of friends, it’s not that big of a deal.

But something like this, I really need to make sure all my stuff is locked down. And when I get on there, I know exactly what I want. That way I have the freedom to move around a little bit if I want to. So having Jordan who is the storyboard artist I used, write, draw up the boards and even give me ideas for things was really, really helpful. They bring out they want it I talked a lot.

There was a lot of explaining but now on day three of boarding, which is, I guess 18 hours into boarding. There’s kind of like an unsaid language happening where she totally gets my style. And now I just kind of get the idea of what the morals but I just watch her rip what’s in my head directly out and draw it into a frame. But again, these boards don’t need to be super detailed.

I mean, Jordan isn’t even spending a ton of time to make this look like a comic book. It’s just what you need to get the detail across of what you’re trying to do. I mean if all you’re doing is drawing stick figures and it still gives the idea of perspective and composition. Well then you have yourself a storyboard and I think it’s really important especially when you’re shooting a film. Because you’re shooting completely out of order, you’re all over the place. This helps you retain your original intention of what you wanted for that scene what you wanted the camera to do.

Because in pre production, you have all the time in the world to really dive into your script and figure out what you want your audience to be filming, when you’re on set, it gets really stressful. And it’s really easy to forget where you’re at, under that sort of stress. But with a storyboard, you can easily just go look at the image. And it all comes right back to what you originally wanted for that scene. So it’s really a kind of a safety net, to ensure that what you originally wanted, is still going to find its way to the film.

Another thing that I thought was interesting that I hadn’t thought of before was the actual location we started boarding before I found my locations. And once I found them, we actually redid a few boards, because I had to redo my shot list based on the location, some things when it worked, then I was able to show my artist, some images of our location. And she started tailoring her images to what the location actually looked like, which was really going to help us once we’re there, we know exactly where I wanted the camera, originally, thanks to the storyboards. And it helped us see what we were able to actually do with the camera and not since we know what sort of obstructions are actually in the scene.

Now if you can’t see the location first, it’s really not that big of an issue. The storyboard is still going to help you to know what sort of thing you want. And so you can easily rearrange your shot based on the location you have still getting all those ideas and punctuations that you had in the storyboard. So here’s how it worked. First of all, how did I find a storyboard artist? Well, I just searched the internet, I googled storyboard artists, and then around my location, and I spent days looking for people that I think would be down to do it, that wouldn’t cost a ridiculous amount of money, what you can do is look for people in art school, if someone’s actually still in college, they’re going to be down to do your project desk, just to have a credit just to get experience, it’ll probably do it for free. Of course, it’s nice to give them any amount of money you possibly can. But most of these people in these art schools will probably just hook you up for free, and they’re going to be very, very talented people.

Now, when I met up with Jordan, of course, we start going through the boards one by one starting from our first shot. And I actually went through the script in chronological order. So jumping from scenes back and forth, so I could kind of see my movie layout in front of me, I would describe the shot and draw very, very poorly on a notebook to try to express what I’m trying to think of what’s one thing that helped us a lot was doing Google Hangouts, since I’m in pre production, I couldn’t meet that much. So we would do Google Hangouts, and you could do a screen share. And I was able to show her my screen with frame for Janet, and then position the camera to kind of kind of give her a general idea of what I wanted to do.

And she could go off that. So frame forge really helped me out there too. So the first thing she does is thumbnailing, which is just these really basic, really sloppy images to where only her and I can really tell what that is, then she’s gonna take that back, and then she fixes it up to the second round of roughs. This is a lot more intelligible, you can tell what you’re looking at, it gives me a clear idea of where the camera is perspective and angle.

And then once I approve all those, or have corrections, move up, move down, left, right, I’m very picky about because I want everybody to know exactly what I wanted, she goes back and she makes the final boards, including shading and everything else that really captures the tone for the rest of the crew to see, which is why I’ve been really loving using an actual artist. Because not only is the angle that I want in there, but the actual tone is being represented for people to be able to see there’s also a side to storyboarding that’s kind of like screenwriting. Whereas screenwriting, there’s a secret language to it, that formatting kind of shows someone that the person writing knows what they’re doing, since their formatting is correct, well, storyboarding does have something similar to that. And that is the way that it shows how a character is moving or the cameras moving in and out.

So the usual way that you show the different camera moves is just drawing arrows with usually the cameras written inside them. But for something like zoom, you want to show like the zoomed out version. So this larger frame is where it starts. And the smaller frame is where within and then just draw on the arrows to show the direction of the zoom. So for the reverse zooming out, you do the same thing, you show where it starts. And then you show where it ends, these chunkier arrows are usually what you use for camera moves, there’s like, as you can see, there’s kind of an infinite amount of shapes that you can have the four character moves, what you want to do is use these like skinnier arrows, just so you have a difference between the two. And you can tell what, what the arrow is talking about. So if this guy is going to move this way, you want to draw a little arrow that’s going that way.

I mean, really, what a storyboard is going to do is keep you on track. Like I said, when you’re on production, it’s a little bigger, more than you’ve ever handled before. And it’s crap hits the fan, you start getting crazy stressed out, this is going to help you keep in mind your original intention of what you wanted, and get everybody else on the same page with you. Now if you’re looking for a storyboard artist, you could always use the storyboard artist I used you she can be found right here. She’s incredibly talented, and she’s not going to rip you off, which is nice.

She also has a Twitter right here that you can follow and you should follow because she is quite talented. But that’s it for today. I hope that was helpful to you guys. And of course, again, if you don’t want to draw the thing you can use frame forward, you can use Cinemax, you can just use pictures if you want however you want to do it. Just the idea is to put your vision on paper for you to keep in mind and for everyone else to see. But now, back to the rest of this pre pro and I’ll see you guys next week.


You know, when it comes to camera angles in framing, the full shot or full body shot includes the feet and the frame. For this type of shot, remember to never cut off just the feet. In fact, it’s bad practice to cut off your subject or your knees and below, made look like you basically did it unintentionally or by mistake, like you can see here. It also just looks awkward when the person’s legs are cut off below the knees. Now this, in fact, is not a rule by any means. In fact, I don’t really think there are any rules and film.

But it’s just, you know, bad practice. If you’re going to frame your subject like this, then you better have a good reason for it. Otherwise, it will just confuse your audience and will just simply look like you don’t know what what you’re doing. So basically, for full body shot, you should, you know, stick to something like this. next shot is a medium full shot, that’s when you go in a bit closer, and it’s usually also when you cut off your subject somewhere in between the knees and the waist. And once you frame up above basic the waist area, that’s called a medium shot.

After that, we move in for a close shot that frames from around the breast area and app. And then this here is a close up view which basically frames mainly just the subjects head. Once you move in even closer where you start to cut off the forehead or the chin. That’s usually referred to as an extreme close up, even once you move in to just frame the eyes, for example. Now what you got to remember is that there is no standard by which to go when naming these types of shots. These are simply the names that I use.

There are others out there that use different names. What’s important is that you know what type of shots you want to get. So you know, when you’re planning your shots or doing your storyboards, you always use the same names for the shot type. So you basically don’t end up confusing yourself later on down the road when you go back to look at your notes or your storyboards. And next we’ll talk about the types of shots or angles like over the shoulder or a two shot. These are most commonly used in a scene where two characters are talking to each other.

The shots refer more to the angle than what the exact framing is, for example, you can have a close up over the shoulder or a medium over the shoulder like you see here. And you can even go to a full body over the shoulder. Same goes for the for the two shot. Here we have a full body to shot and then a medium to shot. And then a close up to shot.

Or you know you can also have a three or four shot or whatever and and depends on how many characters you have in your shot. Other shot types you might hear about are an insert or a cutaway, which is basically a close up on a part of the scene or you know, could be a POV of one of the characters we’ll be seeing basically a certain detail in that scene like we see here, where one of the characters passes the car keys to the other. And many times people ask me what size lens should they use to get, for example, a good medium shot?

And really, there is no one correct answer. The types of shots or the framing really have nothing to do with the lens. For example, you can have a medium shot that’s shot using a wide angle lens, such as this 16 millimeter Canon lens that I’m using here. Or you can have a medium shot that shot using a 50 millimeter lens.

Same if you use 100 millimeter or even a 300 millimeter telephoto lens. They all produce medium shots. But of course, each of those lenses gives that shot a different look and effect. The framing doesn’t change. It’s just a perspective. So remember that shot framing has nothing to do with the lens size. And the only way you’ll ever really know what type of lens to use in your scenario is once you have a lot of experience going out there and filming, you know, just trying out different types of lenses and experimenting, then you know afterwards, you should come home and compare what kind of effects you got using various lenses on different types of shots.

Because there’s virtually an infinite amount of effects that you can get when you’re mixing up different types of framing, shot types, angles and lenses. For example, let’s take a close up and do a few versions of it and see what kind of effects we can get. If we were to use a mid sized lens such as this 50 millimeter, then you would get something like this, you know an average type of kind of looking shot.

But for example, if you’re filming, let’s say a comedy and you want it to show a person you know in a funny way, then it might be better to go in and real close and use a wide angle such as the 16 millimeter lens, which will make your subjects features look a bit distorted or exaggerated. It’s not actually the lens that makes your subject look that way but your relative position to the subject.

Basically, the closer you move to subject the more dramatic the perspective will be. But obviously you got to use a wide angle lens when shooting this close. Right now we’re about two feet away from the subject. Now if we were to use a 15 millimeter lens at that same distance, then the perspective doesn’t change. But the framing obviously will, because we’re basically just zooming in. So all you end up seeing is this, it will be the same view look at this shot that we got using a 16 millimeter lens, and then digitally zoomed in. The only difference being that the depth of field will be the same as the 60 millimeter lens. And of course, we end up losing a lot of the resolution, which is why we use different lenses.

Or if you’re using a camera that doesn’t have interchangeable lenses, then you would simply zoom in or zoom out. Now let’s take a look at a full body shot. To get it with a 16 millimeter lens, we have to move away from the subject a few more feet, if you were to move away from your subject to about 250 feet, and this wide angle might be good if you’re trying to get let’s say a wide shot of the location.

Because your subject is so small that it’s really hard to even see him. So that’s when you do want to use a long lens such as this 300 millimeter to basically zoom in. Now when you’re this far away, that’s when the subjects will look more flat and less exaggerated. Since you’re seeing all the features from pretty much the same perspective. It will also bring other surrounding objects such such as this mailbox that we have there in the background, closer to our main subject.

Whereas if we were you know, a bit closer, and let’s say using a 50 millimeter lens, it looks like that mailbox is a lot further away. They’re both the same types of shots, a full body shot, but what changes now is our relative position to the subject. And since with the 300 millimeter lens, we have to move away so much further. And then zooming optically, we end up also zooming in on the mailbox, which is why it makes it look like it’s basically a lot closer to our subject. And then for example you can see in this full body shot that we got using our 50 millimeter lens.

So anyway, next time you’re wondering what lens you should use in your setting, just simply go out there with your camera test all different lenses experiment, and above all, just have fun, because that’s really the best way to learn.


In the logo, you know, I feel like every time that I look up storyboards and how they’re supposed to look, they always look really nice. And I used to think that to do them properly, you actually had to be a good artist, which I am the exact opposite of, which I guess is just a bad artist. But today I’m going to show you the basics of doing storyboards and show you that I can do them, anyone can.

storyboards are done so that you can visualize your film scenes before you actually shoot them, which is a huge help to have on set, it makes your life so much easier, it’s a lot harder to forget to get a shot or you know, not get coverage or a certain insert shots that you wanted to have. And you just forgot while you were on set, it’s a lot harder to do that when you have a good visual reference on set.

And you know what the final product needs to look like. And there are some amazing storyboard artists out there like really good to the point where you feel like you can already see the final look of the movie when you look at them seriously, really amazing people out there. But if you’re like me, then you are not one of those people. I mean, this is how I drew Griffin. It’s like a preschooler with not a lot of talent.

But you don’t need to. But you don’t need to be really good at drawing to be a good storyboard artist. The important thing is that you can interpret what you’ve drawn, and that you can effectively translate them into the images, you want to demonstrate just how bad an artist you can be and still make this work. I’m going to use a few very quick excerpts from the short film script that I’ve been working on and no laughing all No.

Now, as you can see here, that’s supposed to be the cabbies head in the foreground, that is William in the mirror, those are supposed to be the buildings that’s supposed to be the street. So as you can see, I’m not very good. I just make it so you can identify the characters like I know that that’s William in the backseat, because of that really well drawn cowboy hat that’s on him. It’s pretty still shot.

But alongside your storyboards, you can add notes that tell you things like the lighting in this case, I wanted Williams faces and shadow now I already sort of shade it in his face to get that across. But just so that people understand that if they look at this and can’t quite understand what I’ve drawn Williams face and shadow except for brief flashes from exterior light. You can also say the action that’s supposed to take place cabbie, adjust the mirror, I’m not drawing a really bad arm reaching up. But you know, it will be understood that that happens in the shot.

Here’s a line from later in the script. Now he kind of does the dramatic turn back like and says line. Now if you want to show on screen movement, you can use arrows within the frame. In this case, I’m showing that his head is turning around but not his body. You can use this for anything, you can use it for walking, you can use it for any small movement that you feel you can animate just using an arrow, you can do that.

Now on this shot, I also want the camera to push in. Now I could draw a second closer picture to show that that’s what I want to have happen and then just label it accordingly. Something I’m going to show in just a second. But in this case, I can show that the camera needs to push in just by doing this, I’ve drawn what the final framing will be these arrows here show that the camera will push in that just to show that it’s a push and not zoom again down in the notes camera pushes in from medium to close up.

Now I’ve got the shot where the car full of the thugs is driving up slowly. And they’re all looking away from the camera out of the parking lot and the building in the background. Looking for a particular car. Now I drew the worst car ever. But for the actual framing, I wanted it to be tighter. So I’ve adjusted the frame accordingly, you can actually draw the rest of the picture and just keep the frame for visual reference as to how it’s supposed to look when it’s shot. And again, I want the camera to move. But this time I’m not, you know pushing in or zooming in. But I actually just wanted to track along with the car. This is easier to get across if you use arrows that kind of crossed the line from outside the frame into inside. And in this case, just for reference, I’ve written track, that is pretty simple. Drawing a car is not as simple for me.

Now this is if you have one long shot, but you want to show multiple frames to show what the action is going to be. This one is going to be a shot that starts off on the ground showing the door of a car opening the legs stepping out of the camera pushes in and raises up and shows the character of William they’re raising his gun and about the fire. Now as you go through your storyboards, you should number them. And if you have multiple frames for the same shot, you just label it one a or whatever number a than B and C etc. And that’s just a few brief storyboards for me but they’re good examples of what you can do when you really can’t draw. But you do have other options if it’s a quicker shoot and you just sort of quick notes on how things need to look.

You can actually do small thumbnails in the margins like this one here, which was just going to be a two shot of the two characters in the cab and I didn’t need to do anything fancy. I just show the two characters are sitting alongside each other face in the camera. That’s the framing, nothing fancy but it’s good to have on set if that’s all you can do. Some people don’t like to completely visualize that they just like to make a shot list. They have a list of shots that they want to get like extreme close up, insert and master shot and they’ll just in writing describe what they want.

And those can also be put in the margins there also pewter programs that you can use that you can make digital art storyboards. And there’s quite a few out there if you don’t even want to touch pen and paper. And it doesn’t always have to be as messy as what I’ve done here. So if you want to look a little bit more professional, you can find templates for storyboards, and shot lists and all that online. And that’s really it. For me, again, I’m not good at this. I’ve said that 100 times at this point, but you don’t have to be, you just need to be able to translate your images to the screen.

And when we actually start shooting the short film, we’ll come back to the storyboard and see just how well I was able to capture that. And another thing you can do that Robert Rodriguez actually does is that you can actually just go on set with a camera and just sort of video storyboard with your actors, have them stand in their spots, get an idea of what you want it to look like and just leave it at that. That’s one of the videos we’re going to be showing in the playlist at the end here is a little featurette on how he does his video storyboarding one video I couldn’t find anywhere online, unfortunately.

But if you have the seven DVD you should check it out. There’s an alternate ending where all they had was the storyboards and they had actors do voiceovers and they sort of animated it, which is called an animatic, which is a whole other thing for another episode.


I know what you’re thinking Mad Max, a comic book film. What enough is this guy talking about? Well Hear me out for the entirety of this video and then just maybe you too will see how Mad Max Fury Road is an unconventional comic book film. Everything that we’ve seen on screen and Fury Road is largely practical effects. We’ve all heard the story about how George Miller and his crew wanted the film to feel tangible and truly kinetic and energy. But what if I told you that 80% of what we see on screen was recreated from 3500 panels of comic book style storyboarding?

In fact, take a look at this. And now this, Miller and his team of artists worked tirelessly for two years drawing out the entire film before even putting any dialogue to paper. It’s important to note that these are genuine panels almost as though they could be printed instantaneously and passed off as comic books for many films on the go to storyboard process.

Very few do so without actually knowing the dialogue they are working off Fury Road was conceived through art and sketches. And if we continue to view the side by side shots of the panel and then the film, it almost feels like a pulpy comic book adaptation, something similar to this perhaps. From an artistic standpoint, the whole visual and feel of Mad Max would not look out of place if say, US DC or Marvel logo slapped in the opening credits of it. In fact, Fury Road is the greatest superhero film of this decade.

Because yes, let’s face it, this is eerily reminiscent of the world of a superhero. And it all starts with Furiosa. Our protagonist could easily be compared with Batman, for example, her parents of dad she rose this vast world alone and effectively by the end risks her life to better and protect that of the people around her. She even has a trusty sidekick, Max. that camaraderie and short could be conversations but yet another strong facet of this forms layered comic book style nuances. While the dialogue is minimal. This only adds to the sheer hilarity and sometimes cheesiness of it all.

Mila himself had this to say about the dialogue, or something which was pretty nonverbal. I mean, people obviously speak in the movie, but they speak only when it’s necessary. And I think that quote is super important, especially as it’s a way of prioritizing the images as vivid replacements of words. There’s the often spout cliche in screenwriting, where you can paint a picture with words for Fury Road almost subverts this, as this pictures evoke words. Instead, the minimal dialogue has its roots deeply ingrained in the comic book style, with Miller storyboards, even after the script containing zero words. Another little nuance which solidifies Fury Road as a somewhat unconventional comic book film is the character names.

They don’t usually feel like real people almost as though these are their aliases. alter egos. Furiosa max rocker tans be immortan Joe slip knocks, the list goes on. And the comedy for he’s pretty awesome.

It almost establishes an idea of hierarchy as the longer name characters are often the most powerful. Meanwhile, those with shorter names are more expendable. The names alone concoct this world that feels as though it exists in a realm of imagination. Get the images much like Gotham and Metropolis remind us that this is a world like ours where if something goes wrong, we could very well end up inhabiting it’s almost cautionary in a way I live in comparison. swampthing in the both deal with nature and the environment as a rustling of society.

The point here is in the Mad Max is ripped off these comic book arcs or films, or was even influenced by them, but it’s simply a fun anecdote that helps this action epic operate as a quasi comic book film. On the topic of characters Fury Road also delivers the brutish villain in in Walton Joe, a man hungry for water and oil depriving everyone of natural resources for his own presidential like power is cold season Come on the wall boys into giving up their lives for him if need be. In return, he promises them a birth in the afterlife of Valhalla.

We’ve seen this type of manipulative and power hungry villain and the likes of Green Goblin and many Spider Man arcs or the Joker and His endless band of goons, the myth and legend of immortan Joe makes him as compelling as the best comic book villains to even has that stereotypical muffled voice of the comic book villain like say Bane, for example.

And as a side note, Fury Road has recently been turned into an actual comic book series. It may not explicitly be a comic book or superhero film, The Mad Max Fury Road toys so heavily with elements of the two that it might as well be and if it constitutes as one then it may very well be at the top of many lists as the best. Hey guys, I’d like to thank you all for watching the video.


Storyboards are illustrations that represent the shots that will ultimately make up a movie. They allow you to build the world of your film before you actually build it. There are any strict exacting rules on how to do storyboards conveying information is what’s important. storyboards are ultimately a technical document a tool. So it doesn’t matter if you’re a skilled illustrator or not. This can work just as well. Is this a way they could take care of? Yes, no problems. I’ll put them on my cat.

Even if you struggle with the perspective or can barely draw a stick figure you can still convey what types of shots you want and their basic composition. Who storyboards typically, the director sits down with a storyboard artists to help articulate their vision. However, it’s not uncommon for cinematographers and production designers to join in the process as well.

I usually meet with the director and produce rough thumbnail sketches that summarize the important information each panel and then afterward I’ll fill in the details on my own meeting with the director once again after completing the panels to make sure everything works. Well then share the completed panels with the rest of the team. Let’s break down the parts of a storyboard.

The panel or frame is a rectangle that represents what the camera will see. panels come in a bunch of different shapes. Pick a panel shape that matches your shooting aspect ratio square widescreen, really really widescreen. A person drawn really small on the panel is a wide or establishing shot. A big head taking up half the panel is a close up. You’d like them. deciding where you put the person your frame is the basis of your composition. This may seem really basic, but this has a huge impact on how you prepare for your shoot these illustrations give your cinematographer a starting point things like camera angles, lighting, depth of field the whole gamut of decisions can be informed by the storyboards.

It’s also a great way to decide what you’ll need out of your locations. Do you really need a giant bottomless pit? Or can you get away with one visual effects wide shot and then cover the rest and tighter shots? Okay, let’s talk about arrows. So now that we have a panel with a character in it, let’s say that character is moving to the left by dragging an arrow pointing to the left we show where that character or door or dinosaur is moving. There’s no real rule to drawing arrows and everyone has their own personal style. But what’s important is that your arrows are easy to read and make sense.

Here’s some examples of arrows. Arrows for characters moving towards camera arrows for characters moving away from camera, this character is kneeling down, and this character’s head is falling off. Arrows within the panel usually mean a subject is moving in the shot arrows around the edges usually imply some sort of camera movement. So here the Raptor lenses right, and the camera pans left.

Now let’s talk about camera movement. camera movement. Arrows also aren’t really standardized, but let’s go over some common ways camera movement is illustrated. Dolly movements are typically done with one arrow often narrowing a little bit to suggest movement in or out of 3d space. Both Dolly shots and zooms can also be illustrated by placing arrows in all four corners of the panel. This shows a widening or narrowing of perspective, you can draw a panel within your panel to show how far your dollar zoom goes.

Clearly conveying information is key. So it’s better to over explain than to confuse people. Hands are often shown with an arrow on the side of the panel, either pointing to the left or to the right tilts up and down are done much the same way. Except with the arrows at the top or bottom of the panel. You can also elongate the panel to fit the entire shot in a single drawing.

Since this can get a little confusing, it’s okay to make a note indicating whether or not the shot is tracking versus panning or dollying versus zooming. Because arrows are often used the same way in both instances, you can make your notes beside the panel or in the arrow itself. Sometimes you’ll need more than one drawing to illustrate what’s happening in a single shot, especially if it’s a really complicated action or camera movement. When you take panels with angle composition on screen movement and camera movement, and then combine these panels into a sequence, you have the foundation of your movie
storyboards are pretty Pick really useful for preparing scenes that require multiple effects techniques.

For the scene from truck flipper versus bus puncher, we use storyboards to decide what was going to be stunts, what was going to be practical onset special effects, what was going to be green screen and what was going to be CGI based on exactly what kind of action was needed in each specific shot without planning ahead. A scene like this would have been impossible to shoot in the amount of time we had available. storyboards are typically created based off a completed script. But if you’re doing a story that’s extremely visual storyboards essentially can be your script like with Mad Max Fury Road.

Since it’s such a visual film, the beats were more effectively planned out with pictures than with text on a page. While this is an extreme example, this holds true for preparing all visually complex scenes. There’s also plenty of other alternatives to storyboarding, Stanley Kubrick used actual photos from his location scouts to find his compositions. It’s also worth mentioning that filmmakers who’ve adapted comics and graphic novels often use the original artwork essentially as storyboards for the final film, you can make animatics of your sequences on your computer to include motion and timing. You can also videotape your prevas which is really useful for complex action.

You don’t need the actual set costumes or magical flying speeder bikes to test out your ideas. In the original Star Wars, George Lucas used real world war two documentary footage to help pre visualize the space battles headache.

Animation has also been used to help capture complex sequences, Jurassic Park, you stop motion animation to pre visualize the dinosaur scene. When the decision was made to use CGI in the final film, they had already planned ahead and painstaking detail and knew exactly what specific movements the CGI was going to need to be able to do.

By the time Peter Jackson did the Lord of the Rings trilogy, digital technology had developed to the point where they were able to motion capture the cave troll sequence, and then move a digital camera around in 3d space to pre visualize the entire scene in a virtual setting. There’s no hard and fast rules are one way to do it. But the ultimate goal is planning and clear communication. So whatever tool is going to help you prepare and share your vision the most use it it’ll pay off when you get to set and will help empower you to make the best film possible.

What the Heck is the 180 Degree Rule? – Definition and Examples

You might hear on set a DP or camera guy to discuss the 180 Degree Rule and say:

“You can’t put the camera there, you’ll cross the line”

There’s a lot more to shooting a great scene than just planting a camera somewhere and yelling action. We all want to shoot a scene that can be cut together to achieve great continuity with a good variety of shots.

The 180-degree rule is a cinematography guideline that states that two characters in a scene should maintain the same left/right relationship to one another. When the camera passes over the invisible axis connecting the two subjects, it is called crossing the line and the shot becomes what is called a reverse angle. Reversing the angle is commonly thought to be disorienting and can distract the audience from the intent of the scene.

The videos illustrate the basic principles of the 180-degree rule, establishing action lines, working with shifting action lines, and redefining the action line using neutral shots, camera movement, and cutaways. Knowing how to apply the 180-degree rule, and when you might want to break it can take your production skills to a higher level.

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I broke the 180-degree rule in my film This is Meg and all is OK. I knew the line was there but made a call and it worked out perfectly. You just have to understand the rule so then you can later choose to follow it or not.



Spoiler

Transcript for Moviemaker Video:

There’s a lot more to shooting a great scene than just planning a camera somewhere kneeling action. We all want to shoot a scene that can be cut together to achieve great continuity with a good variety of shots. But 180 degree rule is a useful tool to help you achieve this. In this segment, we talked about the basic principles of the rule, establishing action lines, working with shifting action lines, and redefining the action line using neutral shots, camera movement, and cutaways. Knowing how to apply the 180 degree rule and when you might want to break it can take your production skills to the next level.

The basic idea behind the 180 degree rule is to establish and maintain the screen direction of your actors or action in the scene. Failure to follow the rule can make scenes difficult to follow for your audience. The most important factor in working with the 180 degree rule is knowing how to establish a line of action. The line of action is an imaginary straight line that is drawn between a subject and an item or person they’re interacting with, or a straight line drawn along a path that a subject is moving on. Let’s look at two actors position for a dialogue scene.

As an example, if we look at the scene from overhead, we can draw a straight line from actor one sight line to actor two’s. This is our line of action for this scene. The 180 degree rule states that once you place your camera on one side of the line, you should keep all your shots within the 180 degree arc on the same side of the line in order to maintain proper screen direction.

When you first introduce a scene, you’ll typically have an establishing shot to help orient your viewers. The establishing shot gives the viewer the basic geography of the scene and determines the screen direction of the actors or action. This is the establishing shot for our scene, an actor one faces screen right and actor two faces screen left. As long as the camera doesn’t cross our action line, our actors sight lines stay consistent. This prevents the viewer from being confused or disoriented. In contrast, if we cut to a shot that has the camera placed on the opposing side of the action line, our actors are now facing the opposite direction and their sight lines will not match up properly.

Taking a look at the two shots in Split Screen clearly demonstrates the concept when shot properly are actors look toward each other. When the 180 degree rule is broken, our actors no longer appear to be looking toward each other. We can also apply the 180 degree rule to action, such as a person walking, let’s take a look from overhead. We can establish our line of action by drawing a straight line in the direction he is moving. If we place our camera on this side of the action line, our actor will be moving from screen left to screen right, we can change angles freely on the same side of the line without altering the screen direction of the actor.

If we were to move our camera across the line and cut to that shot, it will appear to the viewer as if the actor is traveling the opposite direction. This holds true for cars as well. And it’s extremely important in sports as you don’t want to have a player running toward the goal line, then cut to a shot that makes them appear to be running the opposite way.

Of course, you could break the 180 degree rule for dramatic purposes if the story supports it. If your character is disoriented or lost, it can give the audience the same feeling. So we’ve learned how to establish the action line and what happens when we break the 180 degree rule. Now let’s talk about movement within a scene that can cause the action lines to shift. If your scene has movement that will shift the action line, you’ll want to have a basic idea of which direction you’d like to shoot. Let’s take a three person dialogue scene as an example.

Here’s an overhead shot of the setup. Our initial action line is between actor one and two, because they will begin the scene by talking to each other. But once actor one turns to actor three to speak, our action line will shift. We’re going to establish our scene by placing the camera here and try to keep this initial point of view in mind when our action line shifts.

This means we’ll shoot from this side of action In line one, and this side of action line two, the key to making this work is showing the action that shifts the line. In this case, we want to clearly see actor one change his sight line from actor to to actor three. Once we’ve shown the turn, we can now place our camera anywhere along the 180 degree arc of the newly established action line. Now let’s have actor two and three turn to each other to talk. Looking at the overhead, we can see we now have established another new action line.

Based off our initial view, we choose this side of the line. Again, we must show one of our characters turn his head to establish our new action line. Once we’ve done that, we’re free to get shots on the proper side of the line. While something as simple as an actor changing his or her eyeline can shift the line of action, and actors movement can cause the line to shift as well. In this scene, one of our actors begins to walk off, then turns back toward the other. By changing their position, they’ve also moved the line of action.

And now a camera position that would have caused a screen direction shift is well within the newly established 180 degree arc. You can also intentionally create new action lines by using camera movement, neutral shots, or cutaways. In this scene, we’ve established our action line, but we want to transition to the other side of the line. One quick way of doing this is to show the camera breaking the line. As we move past our actor, our audience is now reoriented to the new screen direction, and we’re free to cut any shots that fall in the 180 degree arc of the newly established line. You can also use a neutral shot in order to reestablish an action line.

A neutral shot is obtained by placing your camera on the action line itself, which allows you to then cut to shot on either side of the action line. In the walking example, we could cut to a neutral shot of the actor walking directly toward the camera, which is on our action line. This frees us to cut to a shot on the other side of the action line without being disoriented.

A third way to establish a new line is to use a cutaway shot. In this example, we might use a shot of the surrounding landscape followed by a shot taken on the opposing side of the action line.

Keep in mind that each time you establish a new action line, you are now locked into that 180 degree arc until the line shifts with your subjects action camera movement for specific camera shots. Creating a scene with well selected shots and great continuity is a crucial building block to telling effective stories with video. By understanding the 180 degree rule, you can shoot and edit your next project with confidence and style.

IFH 470: How to Sell an Original Show to Hulu with James Lafferty & Stephen Colletti


Right-click here to download the MP3

Our guests this week are stars from the early 2000s teen drama television hit show, One Tree Hill, James Lafferty, and Stephen Colletti. The buzz the show had was undeniable, and if you were a fan of the show, then you would be glad to know that your favorite characters, Nathan Scott and Chase Adams have a new project together and they talk all about it this week’s episode. 

But first, a summary of our guests’ track records in the industry. Both James and Steven landed their first acting gigs in their late teens and have since expanded their skills to writing, producing, and directing. 

James, started out as a series regular on One Tree Hill in 2003, having appraised one of the lead roles of the show for which he was nominated four times by the Teen Choice Awards. Actor and television personality. Stephen joined as a regular after recurring his role as Chase Adams since the show’s premiere.

Half-brothers Lucas and Nathan Scott trade between kinship and rivalry both on the basketball court and in the hearts of their friends in the small, but not so quiet town of Tree Hill, North Carolina. Here’s a first look at the characters in its pilot episode:

Steven has consistently worked in film and television hosting MTV specials Beach House, Spring break and the VMAs backstage live among others. He’s made appearances on TV shows MTV reality television series Laguna Beach: The Real Orange County, VH1 2013 romance drama, Hit The Floor, and Taylor Swift’s White Horse music video.
Between 2009 to 2012, James began testing out the directing pond. He directed four episodes of the nine-season run of One Tree Hill and five episodes of The Royals, which he played another lead role on. In 2016, he briefly graced our screens in six episodes of Underground, the series, as Kyle Risdin.
With the country on the brink of the Civil War, the struggle for freedom is more dangerous than ever. Underground follows the story of American heroes and their moving journey to freedom.

The guys creatively reunited to create an original comedy television series, Everyone Is Doing Great that’s streaming on Hulu. They co-directed, produced, and wrote the show.  What was remarkable was that they sold an independently produced show to a major streamer, which never happens. We dive in on how they were able to do that. 

The seven episodes show follows Seth and Jeremy, two guys who enjoyed relative success from ‘Eternal’, a hit television vampire drama. Five years after their show has ended, they lean on each other as they struggle to reclaim their previous level of success and relevance, awkwardly navigating the perils of life and love amidst a humorously painful coming of age.  

I had lots of laughs with these two and can’t wait for you to listen.

Enjoy my conversation with James Lafferty & Stephen Colletti.

Alex Ferrari 0:24
We have on the show today, James Lafferty and Stephen Colletti. And they are both actor, producers and directors of the new Hulu show. Everything is doing great. Now, James and Stephen did something that really hasn't been done before which they actually shot an entire series first, and then went and sold that series completely done to a major streamer. That's generally not the way it works. Generally, you would do a pilot, maybe or you would pitch them the show, and then they would pay for it and do it that way. But for whatever reason, they were able, I guess, the timing and the product and everything. They were able to do the impossible and had Hulu purchase their show already produced. So they had complete creative control. And they just did what they wanted to do. And they did it all on a shoestring budget, basically by crowdfunding and raising some capital in the private sector, which again, not a lot of money to do what they did. They really did this on an indie film style budget. So I really can't wait to share with you all their secrets and how they did all this. So without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with James Lafferty and Stephen Colletti. I like to welcome to the show James Lafferty and Stephen Colletti How you guys doing?

James Lafferty 3:58
Fantastic.

Stephen Colletti 3:59
Thanks for having well, man

Alex Ferrari 4:01
Thank you for being on the show. Man. I heard we have we have some friends in common in Dinesh Nelms who were on my show a while ago promoting or will talking about their whole career. But at the time promoting fat man, which is obviously one of the best Christmas movies ever made. It in my audience was going crazy for that episode, because it is just just hilarious if anyone listening has not listened to go find that episode on the back catalogue because the boys were great. And then they reached out to me. They're like, Hey, I got these guys who did this insane thing. We're part of this project and they pitched it to me and I was like, well, I've never heard of that before. How the hell did these guys shoot an independent series that got picked up by a major streamer? Like I know they picked up indie films because my film was picked up. My first film was picked up by them for a license for a year back when they were doing that kind of stuff, but a show is unheard of. So we're gonna get into The weeds about how you guys did that, because I'm fascinated it's really, really want to know how the hell that happened. But before we get into it, how did each of you get into the business? We'll start with you, Jimmy.

James Lafferty 5:12
Yeah, so I started really young, I started doing extra work. Actually, when I was about six years old, my, my mom would bring my brother and I and from Riverside County to LA just to get on two sets, just to sort of expand our world a little bit. We didn't really know, you know, at a young age, what we want it to be, you know, obviously, we didn't, you know, we weren't like, theater kids or stage kids or anything like that. It was really just for a mom to, you know, help us understand that the world was bigger than a small town that we came from. And we just fell in love with it. Of course, I mean, you can't really take a kid to a film set and play around with the kids and get to experience that atmosphere and have them not catch the bug. And sure enough, we did. And so from from about 10 years old on I started auditioning. And from there, it was just like a steady progression of you know, working my first Mervyn's commercial at 12, to, you know, getting a guest spot on, you know, Picket Fences or something like that. And then, you know, just continuing on from there to reoccurring roles. And I basically, yeah, by the time I was a senior in high school, I had booked this little web team drama called One Tree Hill, which ended up becoming sort sort of hit, I guess, I made at least ran for a very long time. Until about 2011. And, yeah, that sort of takes that takes us up to, you know, I guess, when I was an adult, right, you know, that's sort of how I was my way and really,

Alex Ferrari 6:40
but how about you Stephen?

Stephen Colletti 6:42
Yeah, I was a little more unconventional, I, I kind of first started working the business in 2004. The working with MTV, I started out doing a reality show with them completely victim of circumstance out of nowhere, did this show land in my community and dropped my lap. But I was interested in in hosting and wanting to get in there in entertainment. And so, in fact, one thing I want to do was, was to be a vj. You know, watching Carson Daly growing up and doing that gig, I thought that was a pretty cool thing and wanted to pursue that. So I looked at MTV is like, Well, alright, I feel like these people can get me in over there. So what I'm doing the show called Laguna Beach, for a season two seasons. And then I started hosting for MTV. And then I did a little bit of acting growing up it you know, just just in school and stuff and enjoyed it. But didn't think it was gonna be something I'd take seriously. And the more I kind of got into hosting wasn't so excited about it found acting interesting, wanted to study it and did and so as I was hosting for MTV, I was working on on acting and studying and from there, I booked my first film something called it was actually wind up being havoc, too. It wasn't that wasn't it wasn't supposed to be the sequel originally. But that's what who today new line, I think it was, it's what they want. I'm selling it as called normal adolescent behavior. And in that film, actually worked with a girl named Hilary Burton, who worked on One Tree Hill, and I want about shooting for One Tree Hill and getting a part there. And then it was kind of set on working on the show with James for about five or six years.

Alex Ferrari 8:34
So you guys, so you guys are coming out this whole thing very unconventionally, because you're coming from the acting side. So you guys were on a hit show, for a good amount of time. You've been obviously you guys have been on sets a lot throughout your careers up to this point. And then what what made you guys get together and say, you know, we're going to take the power in our own hands and build our own content and try to sell that. So you essentially, stop asking permission to do what you love to do and start creating those opportunities for yourselves very, very Ben and Matt, goodwill hunting style in that way, so what what made you as actors decide to like, you know, is there something that caused you to do it? Or is it something that tickles your fancy or just like, you know, what we you really need to kind of get our own stuff going?

James Lafferty 9:22
Yeah, I think it was a mixture of things, as it always is, I guess, you know, it's, it's, it has a little something to do with, you know, coming off of a TV show and thinking things are going to be easy and actually not being that easy. It's you know, getting to a certain point in your life as an actor or I guess, as a professional in this business where you realize that things are cyclical, like you're going to have, you're going to have times that are you know, really good for a while you're gonna have a great cycle and then you're going to have a really dry cycle and then you're going to it's going to come back it's a sort of pendulum swing situation and you start to realize that at a, I guess around for us, it was around that 2526 27 age when One Tree Hill was ending, right? But then also, you know, I don't think you can be on a show for that long and not learn something, I mean, really have to not be,

Alex Ferrari 10:09
you have to be pretty dense and you have to be pretty.

James Lafferty 10:11
Yeah. And I think, you know, we, we were always paying very close attention, because we always knew that behind the camera was where we want to be eventually we just we knew that we would want to tell stories, you know, for me a big part of it was being able to step behind the camera and direct on One Tree Hill. And then I know, you know, Steven can speak to, you know, the fact that he was producing coming out of One Tree Hill and stuff. But um, you know, that's, that's sort of where I was coming from is like, I know, I want to tell stories. But you know, and I know, I'm gonna want to write, right, so I'm writing scripts, and these scripts are like high concept and very expensive. And this is obviously as you know, and your audience will know, these, these ideas are very hard to get made. So at a certain point, for me, it was like, Okay, what can I make, that can be made? You know, what can, what can we make that that can be made for a reasonable budget, and that we can actually shoot so that we can prove to people that we can tell stories, and hopefully, take that next step as storytellers not just people who are, you know, auditioning for jobs?

Alex Ferrari 11:13
How about you, Steven?

Stephen Colletti 11:16
Well, I think it's, I feel like it was always somewhere. Yeah, it was something in the back of my mind knowing that, you know, in this industry, especially just with technology, these days, what it affords you, you better be able to figure out stuff on your own, because, you know, I just, I know that where I stand in this industry, and I was not, you know, God's gift to the entertainment industry as an actor. And so I knew to do certain things that I wanted to do, you know, you're gonna have to create those opportunities for yourself. And so I, you know, it's just kind of been a steady evolution of, you know, trying different things, you know, realizing I had all my eggs in that inactive basket, when I was in my 20s. And realizing that the opportunities that were coming to me, were kind of out of my control, you know, you go audition for things, and something's you really, really want and it's almost like, the more you want something more, you want it not getting it, and then a job that you're like, yeah, I really don't care if I get this job, and it's like, you booked it, you know, you gotta get I gotta go take it, because I need a job. So I think that, you know, to really, as I got a little bit older, and a little more, Yeah, a little more edgy about the business realize, I, if you know, what I want to do, I'm gonna have to, you know, take the bull by the horns and try to figure out to do it on my own. Because, you know, that's not going to all just line up with landing the perfect audition at the best time and booking it and then Off you go, you know, it's just not, that does not happen every day or, you know, likely at all. So, you know, yeah, I think from there, you know, it's, it's been an evolution of certain projects that, you know, haven't gone very far. And, and just, you know, whether it be a little bit of writing a little bit of producing, but, you know, kind of learning is something from each thing. And then, you know, with this one, with, everyone's doing great kind of felt like, all the pieces started to, you know, fall into place where, okay could take, you know, what I've learned up to this point, and in trying to get stuff made, and go out there also to say, you know, partner up with somebody, you know, realizes I can't do stuff, you know, on my own, and, you know, you got to get good people around you to help you, you know, you know, fill in your weaknesses and get, you know, get things made.

Alex Ferrari 13:29
So, how did you guys come up with everyone is doing great.

James Lafferty 13:35
Yeah, it was, it was sort of out of necessity, I guess. You know, I think we had, we had lived enough life coming out of One Tree Hill to realize that we had lived a pretty absurd life in our 20s. And to have that amount of success at such a young age is completely it's absurd, it's, it's insane what happened, and we were insanely fortunate. And then to have, you know, some some years that weren't so successful, you know, to really humble you and to make you look back and go, Okay, I see a sort of like arc forming here, where, you know, we had a late coming of age, you know, and we had a late coming of age in this really crazy industry, where the hilarious things are happening all around us. And there's, you know, extraordinary, extraordinary things happening all around us that really make for great comedy. You know, and we've never, we've never felt sorry for ourselves throughout this whole process of, you know, auditioning and rejection and all this stuff. Like, I think, you know, we've always found the narrative that it's, you know, a really tough thing to do a little bit tiresome, because it's what we chose to do, right like nobody's gonna feel sorry for you because you just keep coming back for more and you know, you're always going to come back for more. So really, for us the the catharsis and all this was just a laugh at it. So get together to share our stories, and they'll be like, you're never gonna believe what happened at this audition today. Like you're never gonna believe what I saw this party or this person that I met or, and, and and just laugh at these things, and you You know, this is something that we really wanted to bring to a show that that lined up with our comedic sensibilities, right. Like, we knew that we wanted to make a show. That was up to the standards of the shows that we love to watch. We love shows like fleabag, you know, catastrophe. We love the trip with Steve Coogan and Rob bryden. Like, we love will that best show on HBO doll on em, things that are feel really naturalistic and feel really dry. And mind humor, a lot of out of a lot of like, awkward and cringy moments, to the punch lines. And we we just felt like we were like living in this world where all of a sudden, we could see, we could see this happening around us, we were sort of observing it. And so we decided to sort of, I guess, take that and, and try to create some characters that we could map on to these things, and onto this world and into these situations, and create a story around it that would also line up with our storytelling sensibilities, which is really we gravitate to stories about, you know, friends, families, and, you know, families basically, that full of people that are just there, they probably shouldn't be friends, but they have this shared experience, or they have this shared past, where they're sort of forced to continue to deal with each other. And whether or not they stick together is based on whether or not they love each other. Right. Like, those are the stories that we're onto. So it was just all these things as sort of confluence of things that came together to at this time to make us realize that we might have, you know, a story to tell here through everyone's doing great.

Alex Ferrari 16:30
Now, Stephen did teach your agents and managers and your friends around you say you guys are absolutely that this is not going to work. No one's ever, you know, done an independent show before and sold it anything major before me did that happen?

Stephen Colletti 16:44
You know, I got kind of the status quo from the the reps were, that's, that's really nice. You know, they're like, Okay, you go to your little bit, you're gonna be auditioning, right? You should still be sending you stuff. And I'm like, Yeah, no, of course, we please do. Like, okay, just making sure. But you know, I think that they hear that and the expectation on there. And it's like, oh, man, I got a nickel for every time I heard a client talk about something that they're making on their own and never seen it even myself, they probably have a few nickels for me, because I definitely have done it before. As you know, try to shake them down to help you, you know, get some traction on a script or, like get something, you know, get them to read something that you wrote. So, there, you know, there was that kind of like, you know, yeah, they're just playing along. It friends. It was, you know, there was we had some good support from friends at rooting us on like, you know, I think people in the industry were like, Fuck, yeah, man, like, go do it. You know. And I think that it also, you know, with the community of people that God around our show, when we were crowdfunding, I mean, that really helped lift us up and continue. have us continue to move forward on it was that, you know, people were on board and excited, they heard about the concept, they would just be looking at a log line and being like, you know, what, that seems interesting. I'd be into that. And we're like, yeah, like, I want to contribute to the show. Go on and do it. So I think it was, you know, for the most part, it was positive feedback, and to have like, our communities of family and friends, saying, you know, go for it is really cool, and definitely helped propel us to the finish line.

Alex Ferrari 18:22
So I find it fascinating. You said that the agents play the long because I actually, you know, earlier in my career was I had a full films, and I got a star attached. And it was, you know, she'd done TV, and she had done a few movies and things like that, and we go in, and what you're saying is exactly what the agents would do. They came in, they did this show, they sat around the conference table, like, okay, so you know, oh, yeah, we can go out to this person. And, yeah, we might know this person to try to kind of play along and I was so green. I'm like, Oh, my God, we're gonna get this movie made. This is amazing. And then, you know, nothing ever panned out. But they needed to play along to keep the client happy. So I'm so like, I didn't know that was a thing. And when you just said it, like, that makes all the sense to me. Because I've been in that room when we're like, oh, yeah, cuz she's the producer on this. And she wants to put this all together. I was like, No One No wonder nothing.

Stephen Colletti 19:14
You don't listen for us. You know, it's like they don't they know, the road. And it's enough. It's time. They don't have the time for that. They're like, Look, this is the bottom line game. I'm here with my clients for like, you know, like, I know if this person is getting started on a project, like this film is not going to be made next month in six months. And wow, if they make it in a year, that's incredible. So they're like, I don't I don't have time for something that's two years out.

Alex Ferrari 19:40
To get paid Now. Now. I need my 10% I need my 10% I need my 10% Yeah. So

Stephen Colletti 19:46
10% in 2024 Yeah, exactly. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 19:50
luck. Good luck. Yeah, exactly. Good luck to you, my friend. But you're still gonna go out. We could still send you out. Right. We could sit now we could still say yeah, I love that because we still need to make our money off. Right now so it's, it's fascinating.

James Lafferty 20:02
You're gonna be supportive 100% Oh, yeah. Just just means like, you know, saying like, yeah, sure we'll help out. And then we'll step in later.

Alex Ferrari 20:12
Yeah, we if you bring in 5 million, we can get the rest. up, bring 5 million and Will Smith to the table, we can get you. The rest of it. No problem. No problem. Yeah, that's, that's the way the game is played. So Alright, so guys, how did you put this this cell financed? I mean, because it doesn't look like it's like a you know, it's not Game of Thrones for sure. So I'm assuming the budget was, you know, indie. But how did you guys raise the budget?

James Lafferty 20:43
Yeah, well, it was, um, it was, I guess it was a sort of a tiered process, sort of just like the entire process was, you know, we, we didn't know that we were going to shoot our entire season independently. We started off with a pilot, and the pilot was self financed. And very naively, we thought that we would execute this pilot and the money be money, and they would sell it. And then somebody would be like, Oh, yeah, we want this to be a, you know, who the original or whatever. Yeah, that didn't happen. Didn't happen for a lot of reasons. You know, first of all, I think the pilot that we made was a pilot that we wanted to make, and we were really, really proud of it. But it was 2017. And, you know, a lot of the streamers that exist now didn't even exist back then. And a lot of the, you know, bigger ones. Now, we're just sort of booting up. And you know, they're different departments and sort of really defining what kind of things they want to do. And we just didn't anticipate the challenges of shopping around and independent TV show, we didn't realize just how kind of, I guess, unprecedented it was, it's just not something that happened, there was no template for selling it right. further than that, we didn't know that we even needed a sales agent, really, we didn't know the sales agent game, right? We were having our talent reps reach out to development people at these companies. And seeing if, like, you know, they would get it, you know, if they could push the ball forward. We weren't even we weren't considering the acquisitions departments and things like that. You know, we'll talk about this later about, you know, we didn't actually know how sort of nebulous that world was as well, and how many gatekeepers that there were and how relationship based it is. So we just didn't have any of these relationships or any of these connections. So once we realized we weren't going to sell the pilot. And that if we were going to produce the rest of the season episodes, two, three through eight, we were going to have to do it independently. We were we had always considered the crowdfunding route. But we didn't know for sure if we wanted to take that plunge. It was our last, it was really our last sort of final option, because we had heard that it's going to be the hardest thing you ever do. Yes, I've done it's over like, yeah, and you know, the gnomes brothers, who you had on in the past. Like they, they did it as well. And I watched them do and I watched them break their backs for the money they made for post on their first movie or one of their first movies. And, you know, they were they were encouraging us to do this as well, like the Noah's brothers had our backs on the crowdfunding front, they're like, you should do this, because it's going to help you retain creative control whatever money you can raise your budget, it's going to help you maintain that leverage, and that control over the project or for its life. And so yeah, I guess you know, once we had exhausted all options, we took that plunge, that crowdfunding plunge crowdfunded For how many days even 45 days?

Stephen Colletti 23:40
Yeah, at least 45? Not all July, June, July, and then we extended a little bit into August. So what's it been up to about three months?

Alex Ferrari 23:48
And what platform? Did you guys use Kickstarter, Indiegogo,

Stephen Colletti 23:50
Indiegogo.

Alex Ferrari 23:51
Right? And how much did you guys raise?

Stephen Colletti 23:54
we wind up raising about 270k. And that's after. Yeah, after fees. And we had to take some money for of course, for the perks and stuff like that, we were able to, to use about at least 200 210 215 in our budget. And then we had to bridge the gap a little bit to get to where we can, you know, still have enough to finish the season.

Alex Ferrari 24:18
That's amazing. But that's, that's a success man. Like you pull in over a quarter million on a on a platform for a television or streaming series. That's a pretty, it's a pretty good goal. I guess you tapped into a lot of your fans and things like that. To help with that.

Stephen Colletti 24:33
Yeah, no, I know, for sure.

James Lafferty 24:35
Yeah.

Stephen Colletti 24:36
To have people, you know, contribute for a you know, a show they haven't seen before, you know, this was not the reunion or these equal or something. So right, you know, people were having to take a leap of faith for us. And yeah, I think that was that. You know, we struggle a little bit out the gate, trying to get people on board for this, but it was, you know, Really, it was that community behind, you know, One Tree Hill that, you know, got involved and and wanted to see us, you know, where we wanted to support us and whatever our next venture was because they knew that maybe, you know, the reunion wasn't gonna be happening anytime soon. So yeah, incredible community of fans, they're been very loyal. And we're very grateful for that. Because without them, this doesn't happen. And it ultimately was, you know, about two weeks in we're like, we need some sort of kick, you know, we really need something to to boost the finances there, or at least the on the money coming in for the Indiegogo project. And we, we came up with the idea of, of doing some live watches, where we would invite some cast members from the show from our old show, once your Hill and and watch an episode. And, you know, it offered us a great opportunity for us to, you know, see some of our cast members that we hadn't seen for a while and kind of, to fill a little bit of that, that want for what the fans are looking for is they're trying to hear the news, and whether or not the show's gonna have a union or whatnot is like, well, they just want to see some of these people back together. And, you know, to get, you know, four or five of us sitting in a room chatting about the show, it was, you know, an experience that fans really enjoyed. And they came back, you know, four or five times as we did a few of them, and they wind up just being, you know, the most lucrative thing for us in our project. Yeah, raising up. Yeah, I

Alex Ferrari 26:25
mean, you leverage what you have. So, you know, if you've got a fan base, and I'm assuming, how did you get to that fan base? I mean, did you just hit the Facebook groups? I mean, I don't think you have an email list with a bunch of One Tree Hill fans. So like, how did you how did you reach out to these these communities and get them to, to watch and to contribute?

James Lafferty 26:43
Yeah, are following us on social media were a huge part of it. I mean, pretty much everybody that follows me is a One Tree Hill fan, unless they're my mom or my friend. So you know, that was that was that was really important is being able to connect with people through social media. That was what brought in, you know, I think our first wave of people, but I think another really important thing was that we were able to show these people that that just, you know, this first wave of people that we have a product that you're going to like, right, because the challenge with an arts project is that you can't really show them the content of the arts project, right? You can't really like have virtual screening for people on the movie you're trying to make. Fortunately, we were making a TV show and we had shot a pilot. And we were able to take this pilot around to some festivals that were really, really great, like at x festival is a television festival in Austin, that showcases all kinds of television. And you know, they they showcase a few independent pilots every year, they chose us for one of theirs. Series fest is an all Independent Television festival that they hold in Denver, Colorado. At the time, New York television festival was one. So there was just, there's a bunch of different festivals that we were able to hit and we were able to invite fans out, you know, people that knew about us from One Tree Hill, and invite them to the screenings, talk to them after these screenings, meet them after these screenings and get there first of all, creatively get their feedback, right? See if the show was actually funny to them. But then also they were able to see the first episode of the show. And then you know, tell other people on our Instagram feeds or on our Twitter feeds or you know, on the message board on Indiegogo like yes, this is a good show, you will like this show, you know, there's there's something here. So I think that that was a huge, huge asset to us being able to take out that sort of, you know, if this wasn't a TV show, you call it like a proof of concept, right? Wasn't TV shows a pilot. And it just it just the timing of that taking out those festivals, we in hindsight, we realized just how incredibly, you know valuable that was for us.

Alex Ferrari 28:47
And how many days did you shoot? Like how many total days? I mean, assuming you just sat and just just shot it all out in a row. Right? So how many days did you shoot eight episodes and each episodes? What 30 minutes? Less than that?

Stephen Colletti 29:00
proximately 30 Yeah, we got we got anywhere from 25 to 37 minutes. so thankful for the streaming services to be flexible. Right. Exactly three never to kill as many babies as we had expected. But yeah, we want up shooting over the course of about 35 days. eight episodes that's a lot and yeah, obviously block shooting everything getting locations wrapped up in was was you know key. Michelle Lange Who?

James Lafferty 29:31
those seven episodes right that we shot because we had already shot the pilot the year before and then we shot seven episodes, this seven additional episodes over that 35 day period.

Stephen Colletti 29:40
Thereafter, minus one is seven that is confirmed. This is why we make a great team. So we Yeah, and Michelle Lange who works with the nelmes brothers. She's married to Ian there they she you know was so clutch in getting ours. Schedule all dialed up and and and making sure that you know, we're maximizing our locations. And it was fluid to that schedule was changing constantly. And she did a good job matching mapping it out in the beginning. And we kind of had an idea of where we were going to be for the next 35 days from the jump, of course, but, you know, she was always kind of looking to adjusted, where can we make Where can we save a buck? And you know, having somebody like that on our team, just, you know, thinking about things that we are not even anywhere on this same universe and thinking about what that scheduling and how we can save some money. Because especially when we're doing our shoestring budget was key. So we it was it was hectic, but we we got it done. And you know, Michelle Lange was a big part of that.

Alex Ferrari 30:45
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. So you guys have been you guys have been on onsets pretty much, almost all your life. At this point, you were like, really were on sets for a long time. And a couple and you've directed, you know, a few episodes here and there. How much did that play in in the success of what you guys we're doing it because obviously you knew what a professional quote unquote set was. But you knew that One Tree Hill set is definitely not going to be the all the bells and whistles that you're going to be using on this show. So how was that transition? Because you know, you're used to being on I've been on network sets, they're they're nice, they're plush. The craft, the craft is fantastic lunches, you know, lobster, you know, it's really it's really a nice scenario, depending on the budget of the show. But generally speaking, that work shows are really nice. So how was that transition from? Hey, I need something Oh, we have a department for that, too. We need something figure it out. Hmm.

James Lafferty 31:50
Yeah, I think it's a really good question. Because I think there are things that we that we learned, you know, from being on larger sets that helped us, and there were also things that totally blindsided us as well, right. You know, there was, I think that the general concept of time management really sinks in, when you work in television, you know, on whatever budget you're working on, like, you know, working on, whatever, whatever network TV show, you're still trying to shoot an ungodly amount of pages a day, no matter what, there's not enough time, you never have enough days to get the show to get the episode that you want to shoot. And as an actor, you sit around and you just watch people like run around like their hair's on fire, trying to make this impossible thing possible. So and you learn about time management really well, because you're always watching your clock, right. And so I think that's one thing that we were able to carry into, to everyone is doing great is his clock management, right is that time management is is making sure that, you know, we have contingency plans that we have this space in our schedule to shoot things that we might have missed, or that we're able to adapt, if you know, we didn't get this one thing at this location, what other location can we put it that we had seen enough of this sort of sleight of hand be played, you know, throughout our careers to be able to employ it ourselves, and obviously, with the help of our producing team, but then also, there's nothing that can compare you to, you know, or that can prepare you to for the, you know, first week of our shooting in Stevens actual apartment, and you know, the fact that there's going to be 35 crew and a two bedroom apartment, you know, wearing their work boots.

Alex Ferrari 33:27
And did you get from it? Did you get permission? Or are you did get permission? You didn't gorilla?

Stephen Colletti 33:32
Yeah, but you know, we, you stretch permission for a couple of people just for like, two days? Not necessarily. We won't say how many people were there. And we won't say For how many days but it didn't really work out to that

James Lafferty 33:49
when I quoted. And you know, you gotta like hand it to Stephen, who is you know, this is his apartment, he's producing, writing the show, he's directing one of the episodes that we're shooting at that location, and he's gonna be thinking about all these different things. And he's also thinking about the fact that like, this person today didn't wear social soft soled shoes. Yeah. So like, we might get kicked out, you know what I mean? Or he's worried about you know, getting Starbucks gift cards to all of his neighbors and making sure that they got them so that we've got you know, we're in the good graces of the building. You know, it's not a it's not a completely conducive mindset to creativity. Nothing can really prepare you for that nothing in our experiences on

Stephen Colletti 34:29
me right now. Seriously? Yeah, like you said,

Alex Ferrari 34:30
You started you're starting to see the twitching I could see the Twitch, you

Stephen Colletti 34:34
know, how we I don't know how we got through those those days. But yeah, I mean, I got sick in the middle of it as well.

Alex Ferrari 34:41
Oh, yeah.

Stephen Colletti 34:43
Anytime an apple box was just scraping across the floor. Mentally murdered that individual and then carried on with my scene.

Alex Ferrari 34:52
I'll tell you what, man like I've shot so much in my own places during my career like on my own house like my first my first like $50,000 I spent on my commercial demo reel back when I was doing commercials, which I shot on 35 and all that. I did it in my house, I'd like to two full shoots in my house like doing different areas, like in my living room, I'd set up a set. And I like because I had to. And that exact thing someone like a grip would just drag something along. You just like trying to direct it. And then you have the money. So this is basically exactly the only thing that you did that I didn't do is I was an act in it. Thank God. So I'm doing everything. I'm doing everything else. But I feel you man like you that Apple box kiss drags, oh, god,

Stephen Colletti 35:34
oh, we had a, I had this, this deck. That was great. Because you know, people can go have lunch out there and we can store gear out there. And but you know, we fired up breakfast there at like 615 in the morning.

James Lafferty 35:52
Oh my god, how did we get away with it?

Alex Ferrari 35:54
Starbucks Starbucks cards go a long way.

Stephen Colletti 35:57
Yeah, basically, you know, there was some supportive people, some supportive neighbors, but then there wasn't some supportive neighbors. And there was we did get a noise complaint, like on the first day, you know, there was a the manager who I'd spoke to how to talk to somebody else. And so they showed up and they were like, what are you doing? And I was like, you know, I talked to all that I Okay, all right, right on. But at first there I thought, you know, they had come to basically shut us down. So yeah, I mean, it's still Yeah, once

Alex Ferrari 36:34
he stressed out, he is stressing, it's over, Bro. Bro, it's over. It's over.

Stephen Colletti 36:38
It's felt like a mistake. Because after all this build up to get to this point of wanting to shoot the show. And it's our own. We're so excited. And we got our first couple days of shooting. And then all of a sudden, it's just back to back days, like in my apartment with one thing after another and I couldn't you know, once we got to the finish line, and we were like halfway through that last day there and I'm like, Okay, we got it now I know we're gonna get through this location. The shoot started for me but I couldn't tell you what happened on any of the scenes my characters department because I've my brain was just ping pong off the walls.

Alex Ferrari 37:15
And that's it they I mean for filmmakers listening now, man, until you're in the into you're in the weeds, or as they used to say like when you're in war, when you're in this shit. You really, really feel it because, man it's 1000 things going on at the same time. You've got money dealing with you've got your act, you You're acting, which is insanity to me. Like I can't even begin to begin to try to think about acting in a scene while doing all this stuff. It's it's brutal, man. But I think this is a comment that no one's ever asked this is a sentence has never been uttered in Hollywood. All I have is too much time and too much money to make this project like that. That's never been uttered in Hollywood since the days a fucking Edison. No one is ever said that.

James Lafferty 38:02
Absolutely.

Alex Ferrari 38:03
That you know, it's it's insane. So

Stephen Colletti 38:05
we got another week. You sure you don't want to use it?

James Lafferty 38:08
Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 38:11
Good. Do you want another month? I mean, we could just do another month if you want. Like, yeah, you've never you never hear that. It's insane.

Stephen Colletti 38:18
I mean, I go to Panama and get a shot on the beach. You don't want it? You don't

Alex Ferrari 38:22
want it. That's fine. We'll just green screen it. That's fine. Yeah, I can imagine the culture shock for you guys as being, you know, regular actors on a hit show. And never having to think about any of that. Like even when you were directing on the show, you still never had to think about that. You were just directing the show. And it's all your family and friends around. You know, you've been with these people forever. You don't think about all that other stuff. Really? I mean, time management. Yeah. But when everything's on your shoulders, I gotta believe that the culture shock must have been what at what moment? Did that hit? You guys? Like, was it day one? When you said on the on day one on the pilot even like, Did you just go? Oh, we're not in Kansas anymore. Like, what was that? I mean, I'm sure someone told you. It's like, it's like having kids. Someone could tell you you're gonna have kids. But it Oh, it's gonna be bad. You're gonna lose sleep until you have a kid you have no idea. It's like writing your face. So when was that moment? Yeah, guys.

James Lafferty 39:21
I think for me, it was when we were at Stephens apartment. And I don't know, this is probably the first time we've ever told the story might get crucified by our producers. But I just think it's too interesting. You know, we had at when we started shooting, we had about two thirds of our budget. And we had a contingency plan in place like we were starting in Stephens apartment. We're gonna shoot all this contained stuff. We knew that we could shoot a version of our season for two thirds of the budget, right? We just have to change a lot once we left Stephens department. And, and we were still waiting to see if financier was going to come on and cover that that final third. And we were getting to the point I was probably like four or five days in when it was really like a breaking point and Michelle laying had become set and like Sydney and Steven down and city and and Ashdown and Jaya Durango or other executive producer. And you know that like that was like the rest of the crew setting up a shot over at Stephens apartment and we are like down the hall and sort of around the corner and like a little outdoor lounge we can see across the gap to Stephens apartment, and it was nighttime. And Michelle is walking us through the fact that we might not get this money and could change a lot. And but everything's gonna be okay. I remember just having like a bit of like an out of body experience where I just sort of like, I just sort of went numb, and I just sort of left like I was sort of seeing the world from behind my eyes. And I was like, Oh, this is it. This is what they talk about.

Alex Ferrari 40:45
This is I'm dying. I'm dying. I'm dying.

James Lafferty 40:47
I don't mean to do much. And it's all on you. And yeah, something either really, really miraculous is going to happen, or this is going to be a horror story. You know what I mean? It's like, this is the moment that it hinges on. And thankfully something miraculous happened in that particular scenario. But that was a real. Yeah, that was a real moment. For me.

Alex Ferrari 41:08
It was it was like, you guys had a coming to Jesus conversation, like come to Jesus conversation is basically the set up is like this guy's Look, it's this is. And I've had, by the way, I've had those conversations with my first ad on projects, or my UPM on early, early early projects are like, Look, man, I know you've got 752 shots you want to do in four hours. I understand that. But this is the reality. You got four shots, let's do this. Yeah, see, we just say, Steve,

Stephen Colletti 41:38
I was gonna say, yeah, I think in I feel like, you know, James Nye, we've had this, like, you know, go get 'em attitude. So it was like, there's nothing that we can't handle, like, we could we will figure it out, you know, we'll figure out how we'll do this. Like, we're just not going to take no for an answer, blah, blah, like, just learn on the fly. That's why I like working with James. Like, he's resourceful. He gets it, he just shuts up and does the work, you know. And, you know, there was definitely times where like, Oh, you know, what we've Southern. So we've taken on too much. It's like, you just can't do this, like this isn't, there are people that have gone to school for this, or have trained to do this for a while. And some of the tasks like we just took for granted, like, for example, locations, like I was doing locations for a while, and then we got closer to shooting. And it was like, I missed a lot of locations that need to be actually locked. And then it was like, Well, those are kind of in the second half. So we'll start shooting, and now we're shooting and there's some locations in the back half that we're still trying to lock I'm trying to we're trying to negotiate like at every single location, it was not taking their you know, their their first offer, letting them know, like telling them the story, you know, we're crowdfunded, we're shoestring budget over here. So like, please, like, you know, what, what can you do to help us out, and it just there was, you know, you're just juggling those, and we actually had in the middle of the shoot to bring somebody on and say, Okay, this person is going to just handle locations, like stop worrying about you tried, you know, you got some good stuff, but like, it's starting to, you know, distract you from other things. So

James Lafferty 43:14
you can be driving from Northridge, down to down to Downey every day. like trying to, like putting the finishing touches on the script. It's just not.

Alex Ferrari 43:23
Yeah, and that's, that's one of the biggest mistake, first time filmmakers in the indie space do is they'd like, Oh, I can do all of this, or I could do this, I could Yeah. And they take so much on that you get nothing done. You have to bring you have to bring in people and you have to have help in one way, shape, or form. And sometimes it's it's educated help. Sometimes it's not educated help, like, you know, you get your, you get your brother, your buddy who wants to be in the business, like let's do location scouts. Sometimes it works out great, sometimes not so much.

James Lafferty 43:52
You know, I think the line is blurred these days as well with, you know, what you can learn and what you can't execute, right? Like you can learn, you can learn a lot like and this is this has been a blessing for us, you know, the fact that technology has come so far, the fact that our access to information is just so exponentially better than it was even 10 years ago, you know, but it also it gives you this false sense of security, it gives you this, you know, false sense of capability, really, I think, you know, we did learn to do a lot. And we did we were especially in post production, right? Once we got into the editing process, we were able to save ourselves a lot of coin just by doing things ourselves and learning to deal with things by ourselves. But the same time, we had to we had to recognize where we had to draw the line where like, you know, okay, we can we can keep banging our head against the wall with this thing that we just learned to do on YouTube three days ago, or we can sort of, you know, reach a point where we realize, Oh, this is what they pay people big bucks for, okay, let's go find somebody who knows what they're doing right before we, you know, you know, carve up our project more than we need to hear, you know, do something, you know, make some sort of fatal mistake, right?

Alex Ferrari 45:00
So you guys didn't shoot your own movie. You weren't a DPS as well.

James Lafferty 45:06
We did not Soderbergh it. Now

Alex Ferrari 45:07
he did. It is.I found out I honestly, within like a couple years ago, I found out that solder Berg was his own dp. And he'd always been his own dp, I had no idea because he changes his name on the credit.

Stephen Colletti 45:19
I didn't know that

Alex Ferrari 45:20
all of his and then you go back and like he did Ocean's 11. And che and I mean, Erin Brockovich, and like, he, he was a toy, you start thinking about it, like, and he was the writer, and he was, like, he's a freak of nature. He's like, an absolute freak of nature to do all of Yeah, very, very few very few guys can do. And trust me, I, my first feature I was the DP on. And mind you, I was already 20 years in. And I have been a colorist for 10 years. So I'm like, you know what, let me just get it down the line, I tried to sit it down the middle, expose it, I'll fix it in post, which is exactly what I did. But after after that, I was like, never again, never, ever, ever again. It's too much, man, it's too, it's too much. It's the takes a special brain to do all of that stuff.

Stephen Colletti 46:08
But I was just gonna say another thing we learned, like real quick was, I think was important to take, being able to understand like a pulse of your set, that I felt like I recognized as I'm sitting around on a set waiting for, you know, to act on certain acts, just the, you know, how, how quickly, like a dynamic can change, it's almost like people are, especially these long days, like people can get, you know, they get edgy, naturally, I totally understand it. And so it doesn't take much to set people off. And so to kind of, you know, be a little more aware of, of, you know, the treatment of people, especially for us, when you know, there's no room to go anywhere, we were crammed in an apartment, and we're crammed in whatever location, you know, all on top of each other that, you know, to try to, you know, respect people for the jobs that they're doing, give the attaboys and, and, you know, also, I guess, still try to provide some decent food because, you know, our, you know, we had them, there's no comfort for them whatsoever, and they're working completely full days. And, you know, I think Michelle Lange was, was key and saying, well, we're gonna, we're going to pay for a decent caterer, you know, we got to get some, we got to get them fed well, but, you know, just trying to just check in with with crew and, and have, like, you know, you create a cold, cordial relationship with everybody. And I think that also helps at the end of the day, when the going gets tough. And people either want to get the f out of there, which I understand or just so sick of like, This lack, like, we're missing a couple of resources, and you're having to wear an extra hat, you're not certainly getting paid for it, but like, you know, what, they're gonna step up because they believe in the people that are running this project. I think that that helped us a lot. And, you know, we also had young, we had a lot of young filmmakers, people that are just getting started in the business. And that was really crucial. Because while they're not getting paid, you know, big money, they're ready to hustle, you know, they're ready to, you know, to be on a set and make a film project, you know, so that was, you know, something that was also very vital to, you know, fill in the blanks of not having a comfortable set that you would get on a major network, you

James Lafferty 48:21
know, did you guys that we learn, oh, sorry, I was. I was just gonna say, um, that's something that we learned from the Nelms brothers as well. Being on set with the knowledge brothers, I learned very early on with them that like, the reason that their sets are so amazing, and people are so happy, it's because they realize that they're not being asked to do anything that the directors wouldn't do themselves, or wouldn't don't have the utmost respect for right? Like, these are guys that these are not directors that go to the directors trailer in between setups, and do whatever the hell they want to do. And they're like, these are guys who are they're on set every single, every single moment. They love the process, they truly love being that, and that is contagious. And that's what gets people through those long days and those long nights is, is knowing that the person at the top still really cares about this and really cares about, you know, really wants everybody else to care. And is is willing to put in the work just like they are. I just yeah, I mean, we learned that from that from them very early on. And just we tried to be those guys on set every day.

Alex Ferrari 49:23
Now, did you guys happen to feed your crew spinning wheels of death? Do you know what those are is that this is an old this is this is the best stuff comes from old DPS. So a buddy of mine who's like he's been in the business 4050 years, and he was DJing something I was directing. And it was a low budget situation. And we talked about lunch, and I said, Hey, do you guys you know, maybe we should just get some pizza. He's like do not bring out spinning wheels of death. Do not bring out just because that's what they're called because it just drags the crew, cheese and bread and it just slows everyone down. He goes, don't do it. Don't do it. And he also, he also always used to say every time he couldn't get something the way he wanted to say, I'm surrounded by assassins surrounded by everywhere I'd look surrounded by assassins, and I use that like constantly on a setlist surrounded by assassins. Goddamnit. But did you? Did you do the pizza thing at one point?

Stephen Colletti 50:20
We actually didn't do pizza.

Alex Ferrari 50:21
Good. That's a good producers

Stephen Colletti 50:24
producers shout out was a Spartan catering. James

James Lafferty 50:28
Spartan brothers. Yeah, but yeah,

Stephen Colletti 50:30
they were they were solid. They had good food. And, you know, we tried to make sure, yeah, you have you other options for, you know, people with with allergies or whatever, and just made sure we're on top of that, or, you know, there was a couple days where they might have forgotten or maybe those first days, you know, working through the kinks that there weren't enough of those meals. It was like, Let's go, you know, let's get this fixed right now, you know. And other than that, we kept them well caffeinated. That's for sure. This This started well, I know myself, but RDP was was a caffeine theme. And so we just made sure we got the Starbucks runs in the coffee going and, you know, thankfully, it was a small enough crew that were like our and this is something that James and I we just handled. We're like, you know what, just take our card and go. Let's get everyone whoever wants something from Starbucks or

Alex Ferrari 51:19
just go Yeah, it's the cheapest is the cheapest investment you can make in this film. I'll tell you a quick story. I come from Miami originally. So in Miami, onsets, there's a little old Cuban man, who's he's hired. It's always a little old Cuban man who walks around but two to three times a day with a tray full of these little thimbles of coffee called Puerto Rico's which is Cuban coffee or little. There's like this big and you look like that can't do anything. And I was just alone. I'm Cuban. So I was raised with this stuff. So I I see, you know, people who are not used to Cuban coffee, like oh, there's just a few of them. That's, that's so little. And they would chug like four or five of them at once. And within 15 minutes to just like she's like freaking freaking out and I like it we and all the all the people who are used to that coffee like let's let's watch let's see what happened to that act. That actor and you just see him just start freaking out like trying to do a scene. So Cuban coffee earlier, I

James Lafferty 52:15
love that. That's that sounds efficient.

Alex Ferrari 52:18
And there's a there's a little way he does it with the sugar and like, he he makes it all foam up. It's a it's an artistry thing. And it's just their little little thimbles man not even shot clock like symbols. That's how powerful and dense the human coffee is. Oh, he makes

Stephen Colletti 52:34
the card the Starbucks runs. And it is I think Starbucks you know, those are sure people that will shit on the coffee naturally, because it's not that great. But there's still a lot of people that are like, it's a desert to that right. A couple people. You get that dialed up for right after lunch? And yeah, you know, it's it's a little gift, that gift goes a long way. Those those anytime that the crew was feeling down, it was like, Alright, let's on the double with the the Starbucks runs in and then when someone would show up with them, you know, everyone perked up. And it was it was

James Lafferty 53:07
it was as much for us as it was. We needed it.

Alex Ferrari 53:11
You got to keep Yeah, you got to keep Yeah, keep the ball rolling. I mean, look, if you don't have money to pay them, the normal day rates, at minimum feed them well. And get them Yes, feed them over coffee. That's I mean, you could you could pay them nothing. Feed them. Well. Yeah, that's at minimum you have to do and that's going to be the best investment you can have in your projects. Without question. Sorry. So you finally get this whole thing together, guys, it's it's finished. It's done. You guys are feeling good about it. And you're like, Okay, now what? How the hell do you go out? How do you get hulu's interest in it? And like, you know, I'm sure you hit walls everywhere you went? Because like, this has never happened. No one's ever done this. How did you do it?

James Lafferty 53:54
Yeah, it was a series of unfortunate events, followed by one very fortunate event. One single very unfortunate event. Well, let's see we, we finished with it took us about eight months to finish the show, in post to you know, get all the episodes to where they needed to be. As we were doing that, we also we got to see, sorry, we got Episode Two across the finish line. And then we took Episode Two out to some of these festivals that had accepted us and you know, our pilot episode. We also use episodes one and two to shop really to take out in this sort of soft way. Right, like to take out some contacts or some you know, in rows that we had made. So we continued that festival circuit. We continue to take it out a bit but again, it was the same thing as with that pilot episode. We still didn't have a sales agent. We are still going to our talent agents to reach development executives. We are still running into walls and we couldn't get anybody to tell us what to do. You know, we there was no That whole side of the industry is so relationship based. And we didn't have the person with the insight or the or the relationships. Or if we could talk to somebody that didn't have the relationships, we had something that they didn't know what to do with. Because there was no template for it. They're like, You brought me a movie. If this was a movie, it would be one thing. There's a million ways you can go. But this is a TV show. And we don't know what to do with this right now. And so we got to I guess we finished the show sometime. And what was it mid mid 2019, Steven, something like that. Or maybe fall 2019, we started really getting to a place where you're happy with the show and felt like it was finished. Yep, yep. Yeah. And we're still taking it out. We finally realized that this whole sales thing is probably not going to happen for us. So we start getting ready to sell distribute, we were going to go through Amazon. We were getting our music finished, we were getting all our contracts in line. We were about two weeks away from hitting from hitting submit to Amazon's platform to

Alex Ferrari 56:07
but so for basically for s VOD, and T VOD, or just

James Lafferty 56:11
for for rentals. First, I think Yeah, to purchase for rented or buy a

Alex Ferrari 56:14
transit and transactional first. So, but you knew that I mean, your budget was,

Stephen Colletti 56:19
I mean, based on the numbers, you're saying your budget was well north of 250. So to generate that in transactional takes obscene amount of work, and luck, and magic from the film gods to make that work. So we're going we're taking that as we're gonna take the show on the road, like that, we're gonna do that. Now, we also got to go to what was successful for us and go fill some theaters, you know, like, tour around, make some stops, and do some parents kind of stuff just to leverage as much interest and bring in some income to try to get back our budget?

James Lafferty 56:56
Yeah, we came up with a pretty good game plan for that, you know, we did the numbers, and it seemed like we could get somewhere close based on you know, we've done fan conventions before for One Tree Hill, we knew that there was a certain amount of a built in audience for everyone is doing great itself anyways, you know, we felt good about our odds, really, we knew that it would be really, really tough. We knew that it would be basically like crowdfunding all over again. Fun, fun. Yeah. Just wanted to get the show out there. And we didn't know any other way to do it. And so yeah, that took us to, I think about january, february of 2020. And then, my brother, who was a producer on the show, as well, his name is Stuart, he just made a random phone call to a friend of his who is a producer who has a relationship with endeavor content. And so my brother sent this producer, our show our first couple episodes, the producer was like, Oh, this is interesting. I don't know. By the time he sent it to endeavor, this agent and endeavor had taken a look, and we were going into lockdown were blocked down wasn't far away. And this agent went, Okay, well, this is, you know, interesting. Like, he really is credit, like he really saw him himself in, in, in these weird ways. When we finally got on the phone to talk to him, he sort of pitched our show back to us in a way that nobody else really had, which was really cool. He seemed to just connect with it on on one level, but then on another level, he was like, you know, we don't know when people are gonna be making stuff again, there's gonna be a real hole in, you know, and buyer schedules, you know, come, you know, quarter three, quarter four, and, and, and this could be a possibility. So, endeavor content took it on. And then there was a list of about 17 different buyers that they were going to go out to with the show. And over the course of what, three or four months, each of those buyers passed, really, really painfully and slowly and slowly, and slowly and slowly and painfully. And yeah, we were worn down to the point where we were pretty much just like, you know, going to the park and laying down and staring at the sky waiting to die.

Alex Ferrari 59:04
Because there was no tour anymore. The tour was shut down. There's no tour. There's none of that stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man.

James Lafferty 59:11
And then we got the Yeah, we got the call from endeavour that said, Yeah, really wants to make an offer. And that's, that, that changed. That changed literally everything.

Alex Ferrari 59:21
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. Wow, so is the same. It was literally the timing right place, right time, right product? Yeah. a year earlier. Maybe not so much. A year later, maybe not so much. But that moment in time, was the time and similar to my film, like at that moment in time, it worked like they would never buy a film like that today. So it just happened to be the right timing, man, that's, you know what, like, like I always say to people, look, luck has a bit to do with this whole thing that we do, there is luck. But the thing is, if you hadn't built that product, all the luck, and we're really willing to help you, you needed something to sell. So it just happened to work out.

Stephen Colletti 1:00:12
It's kind of like it's a create your own luck scenario, you know? And there's no, you everyone's looking for like the recipe, right? How do you do it? So how did you get your independent show to Hulu? Right, tell us the secret. And, but ultimately, there was a lot of hard work that then fell on chance, you know, and fell on a right place, right time opportunity, which you do hear all the time. I think that the way you get the hair at the end of the day, is, you know, you pay your dues, you work hard, you get, you know, you're trying to you're bringing people in to you bring in smart people around you keep you motivated, keep you pushing where, you know, you're overextending yourself. And I think that's when invites the opportunity for for maybe that luck to strike, you know, and it's no guarantee, but this is also what we sign up for. But, you know, had we tried to do these buyer screenings that didn't work well, had we tried to shake down our reps for months, slash years to, you know, get it to the right people, and never feel like we got the right shot. You know, have we not done all of that? Would we have gotten to this gotten to this moment of right place? right time? You know, I don't think so. It just, you know, there was no shortcuts. So, you know, you can you can help your fate, I think I'd like to I'd like to believe you know, I believe,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:33
no, there's, there's no, there's no question about it, man. There's absolutely no question. So when does this so you basically sold Hulu for domestic only. So this still has an international opportunity as well for sales.

James Lafferty 1:01:45
We're going to be in Australia, in the Nordics. And in Latin America courtesy of paramount plus, and their rollout overseas. Which is, which is really, really incredible. And another one of those another one of those things, it's like, you know, man, it's just, it's just, it's crazy, because, you know, we didn't get Hulu, then our show is never legitimized enough to get on, you know, Paramount plus for overseas, you know what I mean? It's like this domino effect of, of things of things happening. And, you know, obviously, it shows the power of getting on to, you know, a streamer like that. But we're just really grateful that we're going to get a reaction from other cultures as well, because, you know, we've seen to have gotten a really good feedback from our domestic audience. People are still finding the show, most people seem to like it. But you know, comedy is hard. When you take it when you export it, cultures find different things funny. We were actually really inspired by some Australian comedy, and Australian stories, storytelling in general British storytelling, so we feel like it will export nicely there, we hope. But we know non English speaking countries, it's really impossible for us to tell. And so yeah, we're kind of waiting on pins and needles to see how it does. And it's gonna be really exciting. We got a call from endeavour actually asking if we wanted to, if we wanted to have a say, in the voices for the Latin American market and the Portuguese market for dubbing and we both were like, I think we could be hands off with this. Yes, this is the one we're comfortable delegating.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:20
If I keep up I would.

James Lafferty 1:03:24
I gotta brush up on my Portuguese, right? No,

Alex Ferrari 1:03:28
no, dude, I used to do I used to do translation not translations, but versioning out for commercials from Latin America. I had to do 30 different versions because every country has their own Spanish. So you you can't you can't send you can't send a Puerto Rican vo guy to Mexico you can't send a Mexican guy to Argentina there's such a different and accents. And that's when I discovered that you just can't it's not one spouse can't send a Spaniard down to Mexico like it doesn't it doesn't translate well doesn't get accepted well, so that that that that's going to be a process for you guys down there. whoever's doing that with you as hands off of that it's going to be an interesting

James Lafferty 1:04:08
You're making me very glad that we said no state

Alex Ferrari 1:04:11
stay away. Stay out of it. Stay out of that, dude, just collect the checks or just take the check a gadget. That's great, man. Listen, it's in this is an inspiring story. I know that there's a lot of actors out there who you know, have maybe been on shows or has a following and are frustrated just like you guys were with, you know, having to go and hustle out jobs and asking for permission constantly. And I'm not saying you're still not doing that, obviously, because not the ages will get very upset. So you're still going out on jobs and stuff, but at least you have a little bit more, a little bit more control of your own destiny, where you're like, you know, we have a track record now. Now we can go out and do it on maybe a movie or or another series and maybe get hired to do be on that side of the fence and now you're building a different level of your career. Um, you know, what, what advice would you give any actors listening out there right now, because I know I have a few actors who listen, as well about trying to do something similar to what you guys are doing.

James Lafferty 1:05:13
Yeah, I think I think, you know, one thing that was easy to forget, the more serious the process got for us was that we started this thing as an experiment, a creative experiment, and we agree with each other that, you know, if that pilot episode sucked, then nobody would ever see it. And that would be okay. You know, we only spent as much money as we were comfortable losing on that pilot. And we went at it experimentally. And I think that gave us the freedom to be creative, as creative as we could possibly be to be uninhibited, and you know, and being creative. And it really helped us to just enjoy the process. And that was, that was extremely important in finding the tone of this thing, and determining what it really was, you know, and shooting it. And also, you know, getting in there and edit and making sure that we just had the time, and we were giving ourselves, we were giving ourselves the luxury of time to learn and taking the pressure off, right, as much as humanly possible. At least with that, that first episode. And I would say for you know, that's the advice that I would give to an actor that's going to go out and make their their first movie is like, Look, you won't get this right the very first time it, you might get it right, but you won't get it as right as you could, because you will be learning every step of the way. And that's okay, that doesn't actually mean that it won't be brilliant, like, it could be incredible, but you're going to see the mistakes in it, you know, the finished product, you will see the mistakes. And so don't worry about getting it exactly right all the way through, worry about setting out to tell the story that you want to tell. And by the end of it, you know, hopefully you will, you will have told it, I think you know, know the story that you want to tell. And also make the kind of thing that you would want to watch. And that's all you got to worry, that's all you got to worry about the first time around, you know, surround yourself with people that can worry about the other stuff for you and treat them with respect and pay them well if you can. But at the end, at the end of the day, just just try to make, just try to make the show or the movie that you would want to watch and, and see what happens. And you know, if you make mistakes, that's okay, you will learn from those mistakes, and you'll get you'll you'll get it right the next time.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:29
Have you seen? Yeah, I

Stephen Colletti 1:07:31
would, I would say, you know, check your ego at the door from the jump, you know, it's it's not, you're not the star of the show here, I think anybody can come on, and work for hopefully a decent meal. And that Starbucks coffee after lunch is now the star for you, you know, it's it's, I think getting those people around you that that are going to be able to, you know, help push you with this project, help get it to its finish line, and have it you know, the quality in a way. You know, I think that creating those relationships and supporting them wherever they need support is is very vital. So you know, this isn't about just work on your project here. You know, you offer your ass up to carry gear for them on another project or whatever it is, you know, I do that and get that experience in and create those relationships because this is not something we're not Steven Soderbergh over here. You're not going to be able to do everything on your own. You need a lot of help. And and so you know, people are going to work with people that they you know, believe in and that they enjoy working with, especially when the going gets tough, you know? So,

James Lafferty 1:08:41
yeah, you have a really good script supervisor. You're gonna be in front of in front of him behind the camera. As a really good script supervisor,

Alex Ferrari 1:08:51
a good a good first ad doesn't hurt either.

James Lafferty 1:08:54
Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:55
Yeah, definitely doesn't really yeah, I'm gonna ask you a couple questions. I asked all my guests. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

James Lafferty 1:09:07
True? Get off your button, do it? That was that was one that took me the longest to learn. Definitely, really? Yeah, definitely. I mean, coming from, look, as an actor, you are very single minded when you get to set your and that's the way it should be like you were there to take care of your job. And, and be present for the other people that are in the scene with you. You know, I worked in I worked as a director and television as well, which was incredible, which was one of the most like animating and eye opening things that ever happened to me because that's where I realized just how much of an ecosystem every single set is right? And how much every little component depends on the next one. That was a big eye opener for me, and it was a whole level a whole other level of working hard and and it was something that I enjoyed, but still You have that safety net, still there is a machine working to help you get everything done. You are not pulling the thing along, you are more of a facilitator. Right. But yeah, it wasn't until, you know, working with the Nelms brothers and Michelle Lange and Johnny Durango on their sets, that's when I realized the power. And the gratification that can come from just getting off your butt and doing something, you know, yourself pulling something yourself, together yourself how much you can learn how good you can get at what you want to do. You know, you want to tell stories, the best way to you want to tell stories this way, I think the best way to become a master at it is to is to, you know, try to pull something together yourself. That's what they they taught me. And it took me a while It took me a while to learn that I didn't meet me till I was like 25

Alex Ferrari 1:10:51
How about easy?

Stephen Colletti 1:10:53
Oh, man. There's a few things I figured out I'm still getting.But I thinkman,it's funny. Like, I do believe that. It's tricky that, like, once sustaining your own lane is is an important thing to know, like what you can't do. But the same time with this spirit, this project, it was like tried to do is figure out as much as possible. But I think that there was I still need to understand, like, knowing my, my boundaries, and and once I know what when I know what those are, like, just don't try to pretend like you know, anything else, you know, we're no further trying to, you know, take on something that you're like a wall, just figure it out. You know, I think it's okay to to seek out help or admit that you just don't know how to do something, you know, the sometimes we're fearful of, you know, feeling inept, at whatever, you know, at being able to finish a job. And so you know, you try to overextend yourself or try to say you got it, but, you know, and ultimately don't now you've set things back. So I think it's, it's understanding, you know, my boundaries, and I feel like I'm still, I'm still trying to figure that out. You know, like, you know, I can't say that I can do this when when I can't or you know, I'm just not everything I could figure out on my own. Right. So,

Alex Ferrari 1:12:18
and, and the toughest question of all three of your favorite films of all time.

Stephen Colletti 1:12:23
Oh, gosh.

James Lafferty 1:12:25
Alex, I listened to your podcast and prepared myself. Because I never had the answer to this. You say? Thanks for the heads up. Yeah, I planned. I planned it this way. at Ferris Bueller's Day Off Nice, nice. And Silver Linings Playbook. Nice because I I feel like I learned something from each one of those films at the time in my life that I watched it. So it was like, you know, when I was a tadpole, and then when I was like, you know, pubescent and then as an adult? So there's something for me in each one of those stages. So God beat that, Stephen.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:06
Wow. Well, he just left it dangling in the wind there, brother. I'm sorry about that.

Stephen Colletti 1:13:10
I'm just gonna say. But we had, we had like, three VHS tapes in my house growing up. And one was like somebody had left a Blockbuster Video, which was predator over at our house,

Alex Ferrari 1:13:27
obviously one of the greatest action films of all time.

Stephen Colletti 1:13:31
And Forrest Gump, which I thought like, the scope of that movie was always something that just like stuck in my mind. And the way Yeah, the way the story is told the way we go throughout all these different parts of history, and that sat with me I think, of late. Well, obviously not of late, but it was actually James little brother introduced me to True Romance.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:56
Oh,

Stephen Colletti 1:13:58
by Tony Scott. And that is a that is a favorite of mine. Dude,

Alex Ferrari 1:14:03
I remember walking out because I'm a bit older than you guys. So I remember walking out of the theater, watching True Romance. And me and my friends just looked at each other, like what the hell was that? Like, we were just so shock.

Stephen Colletti 1:14:18
That's another movie that another feeling that I had there. I'll give you two other movies that for me going to the movies with like the experiences about kernel activity when that movie, like just the reaction in the theater was amazing. And then also, Interstellar was another one which was amazing going into the bathroom afterwards and just getting everyone's reaction just like oh, wow, like that was like it's that when it's kind of hard to step back and society. It's not just the glare of being back in the sunlight. It's like whoa, like where did I just got

Alex Ferrari 1:14:53
I missed that I missed do I miss going to the theaters man I miss go in and get all that experience. I just saw a picture of Nolan in Burbank, oh, yeah, is going going to that's the theater I go to. That's exactly that's the exact theater I go to. He's just sitting there with his wife and his friend just like that. We're gonna watch. I think it was watching the Snider cut there. I'm not sure what he was watching, but he was watching something there.

Stephen Colletti 1:15:15
I was honestly trying to Google that as well.

Alex Ferrari 1:15:17
I think he was watching. I think he was watching. I think it was Justice League the four hour cut of that at the theater. It's Yeah, man. No one is me. Jesus, there's only one of him running around right now. That's for sure. Listen, guys, thank you so much for for being on the show and being an inspiration to a lot of people out there hopefully, listening and maybe they'll pick up their, their, their, their, their chariot to take it to the finish line, and try to get something done. So I appreciate that man. And good luck to you guys. Keep going. I can't wait to see what else you guys do next.

James Lafferty 1:15:51
Thanks so much, man. Yeah, I appreciate appreciate your podcast too. Great work.

Alex Ferrari 1:15:55
Thank you, Matt. They

Stephen Colletti 1:15:55
get Thank you, man. Keep hustling.

Alex Ferrari 1:15:59
I want to thank James and Steven for coming on the show and dropping their knowledge bombs on the drive. And also for the inspiration for a lot of filmmakers out there who are trying to get series off the ground or series sold to major streamer. So thank you so much, guys. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at indie film hustle comm Ford slash 466. And if you haven't already, head over to filmmaking podcast.com and leave a good review for the show. It really helps us out a lot. Thank you again so much for listening, guys. As always, keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive. Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 469: Hemingway and the Art of the Documentary with Lynn Novick

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I am a huge fan of today’s guest. Since seeing one of her first documentaries, I was transfixed by her power of storytelling. Our guest is an Emmy and Peabody award-winning documentary filmmaker, Lynn Novick—a formidable and respected PBS documentary filmmaker with thirty-plus years of experience in the business.

Her archival mini and docu-series documentaries bring historically true events to the big screen alongside her filmmaking partner, Ken Burns. 

You’ve most likely seen some of her landmark documentary films. The likes of Vietnam (2017), TV Mini-Series documentary The Civil War (1990), College Behind Bars (2019), eighteen hours mini-series, Baseball (2010), and many more. All are available on PBS Documentaries Prime Video Channel.

Just this year, the pair premiered their latest co-produced and co-directed three parts documentary on PBD—recapitulating the life, loves, and labors of Ernest Hemingway. The series explores the painstaking process through which Hemingway created some of the most important works of fiction in American letters. 

Novick is an experienced-learned documentary filmmaker. In the mid-1980s, she applied to film school but did not pursue that lane when she couldn’t find a documentary filmmaking-specific program. Instead, she sought out apprenticeships. Starting at the PBS station in New York City WNET, for six months. And then worked for Bill Moyers as an assistant producer on a series of projects, including her debut production in 1994 with Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth, followed by A World of Ideas with Bill Moyers, etc

The Civil War is a comprehensive survey of the American Civil War.

Novick’s decades-long collaboration with Ken Burns emerged in 1989 and has led to the co-production of a number of renowned docu-series.  First, there was the highly acclaimed ‘The Civil War’ which traced the course of the U.S. Civil War from the abolitionist movement through all the major battles to the death of President Lincoln and the beginnings of Reconstruction.

Her vast experience as a researcher comes in handy on these kinds of projects, she explains during our convo. 

She won an Emmy Award in 1994 for producing the Baseball documentary and won a Peabody Award in 1998 for her co-directing and co-producing of Frank Lloyd Wright‘s documentary. 

Baseball covers the history of the sport with major topics including Afro-American players, player/team owner relations, and the resilience of the game.

Other must mention include multi-Emmy nominations documentary ‘Prohibition’, The Vietnam War, Jazz, and Novick’s first solo directing, College Behind Bars (2019). 

College Behind Bars explores urgent questions like What is the essence of prisons? Who in America has access to educational opportunities? Six years in the making, the series immerses viewers in the inspiring and transformational journey of a small group of incarcerated men and women serving time for serious crimes, as they try to earn college degrees in one of the most rigorous prison education programs in America – the Bard Prison Initiative (BPI).

Novick is one of those filmmakers who have combed through an obscene amount of knowledge and understanding of documentary films. I have a feeling you will enjoy this chat as much as I did.

Enjoy my conversation with Lynn Novick.

Alex Ferrari 0:15
I'd like to welcome to the show, Lynn Novick. How you doing, Lynn?

Lynn Novick 0:19
Great. Thanks so much for having me.

Alex Ferrari 0:20
Thank you so much for being on the show. I am a big fan of your work. I've seen many of your documentaries over the years, I've gifted many of your documentaries, especially to to my father who just devoured baseball. And other things like that. And jazz. I know you were part of those projects with Kenya, as well. So and I dying to ask you how the hell you do these things. So before we get started, how did you get into the business? How did you get into being a filmmaker?

Lynn Novick 0:52
Sure. Well, first, before I get started, thank you for having me. I'm a little bit subconscious, because I had some dental work, and I'm missing a tooth. And so anyway, I asked your forgiveness about that. But it's a temporary situation. So there you are

Alex Ferrari 1:02
in there it is, in looking in the world that we live in a missing tooth is very low on the priority list of things that could happen so anyway.

Lynn Novick 1:20
Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 1:21
in the grand scheme of things, the way the world is working, a little bit of dental is, I'll take that over the worst things that could happen to you in today's world.

Lynn Novick 1:29
So for sure, especially nowadays, my goodness, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:32
exactly.

Lynn Novick 1:32
Minor nothing. Yeah, exactly.

Alex Ferrari 1:34
So how did you get it? Yeah.

Lynn Novick 1:36
So you know, I was, I would say, if I look back on my trajectory, such as it is, now it didn't, wasn't clear to me when I was first starting out. I didn't know what I went through. When I got out of college, I was very kind of lost. And I actually saw a number of documentaries, both on PBS and in the movie theater back in those days, which is in the mid 80s. That made me think, wow, you know, I don't really know what I want to do with my life, I might go to law school, or maybe I'm gonna be a professor, I really didn't know. And I just was so transfixed by the power of storytelling, true stories on a big screen based on history and things that really happened. And I love photography, and I loved history. And I just thought maybe I could do that. No idea how or what it would involve. And you know, if a film is well made, you really don't see the effort. It's like the swan going along, and you're just gliding on the water, but you don't see the feet, doing all this below the surface. So I had no clue what was involved in making a documentary, or how challenging it can be or how rewarding but I just naively thought I'd like to do that. And I actually applied to film school. And I got in. This was in the mid 1980s. There weren't many programs where I couldn't find any that taught documentary filmmaking. They're all narrative, scripted, based. And so I decided not to go to film school because I didn't think I had the imagination, frankly, to make up stories and to tell them on the big screen. And I really want to tell true stories. So I decided to apprentice myself if I could. And I really did go through kind of an apprenticeship starting at the PBS station in New York City WNET, for six months. And then I worked for Bill Moyers on a series of programs that he was doing at the time. And then I freelance for a while and I kind of each job I had, I learned a little bit more about the process, and different pieces of it that I could sort of master. So archival research, filming interviews, organizing material, writing a script, you know, different aspects of what kind of goes into any particular film. And luckily for me, I did hear that this filmmaker named Ken Burns was working on a film about the Civil War. And I thought, wow, that that's my dream job. And I managed to meet someone who knew someone who knew someone who can, and literally was so lucky that somebody quit as he was finishing the film. And he really needed someone to come in and help finish up the sort of administrative licensing process for all the pictures they used. So I just walked in the door at the right time, I had enough experience to do the job he needed done. And when we finished that, I was looking for another job. We only had a six month job when I first came. And he said, Oh, wait, don't leave. I'm going to do the series on Baseball, and you should stay and produce it. Wow. That was for me jumping off the high diving board. I had never produced a series I didn'y know about baseball,

Alex Ferrari 4:26
like a 38 hour looking like

Lynn Novick 4:31
joking the other day because the original proposal he told me was five hours. It turned out to be 18. Exactly. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 4:39
So when you work when you work with Bill, memoria, did you work on a power of myth?

Lynn Novick 4:44
I did.

Alex Ferrari 4:45
Oh, my God, you were. So you were there with Joseph Campbell. And we're not there. But

Lynn Novick 4:50
I wasn't there. Actually, when I came onto the project. This is a series of interviews with this incredible philosopher Joseph Campbell about the power of myth and different cultures and how there's, we tell this Same stories in different cultures, whether the Aztecs or the Greeks, or you know the Norse gods, he found these incredible patterns of kind of the human journey he had passed away. Before I came on the project, he was quite elderly when Bill started interviewing him. So they were organizing the material. And my job was to find the visuals. So he mentioned the Aztec ballgame. I had to figure out what are we going to show where he mentioned, you know,

Alex Ferrari 5:25
Star Wars, the Wayne

Lynn Novick 5:26
and the, you know, the Holy Grail, we had to find stained glass that could show sort of he he covered such a wide range of topics. And I was in those days, sending snail mail letters to the far flung corners of the earth trying to get images to show.

Alex Ferrari 5:42
Right, and I'm assuming, how did you get the licensing? Well, I guess the licensing for Star Wars was pretty easy, because you could just start talking to George.

Lynn Novick 5:48
That's what Bill did. Exactly. So the Star Wars, right. So George Lucas was hugely influenced by these works, and this writer. And so that is how the project I believe, got started that Bill Moyers and George Lucas basically agreed that bill would do the interviews of Joseph Campbell, and they had them at Skywalker Ranch. And then George Lucas, let them use the footage, I believe for, you know, some nominal fee. So that that was the organizing principle. And I have to say, when we were working on it, I did not realize how popular it would be. I thought to myself, what did I know who's gonna want to listen to some old guy talk about the Aztec ball game and Hercules and whatever. And it was huge. It was huge. So it was really it was a wonderful experience to see that people really responded to it.

Alex Ferrari 6:31
Oh, no, absolutely. And I actually saw years later, Bill did an interview with George Lucas on the power of myth on just George Lucas's version of that. I remember watching as well, no, I was a huge fan of that. I mean, I've seen that power of myth thing. 1000 times. It's just so awesome. And any filmmaker, any favorite maker listening today should absolutely watch that. Because also the narrative structure that he talks about, is involved sometimes in documentary and documentary work as well. Just the the, because that's life. That's what the myth, hey, it's life in all our lives as the call to adventure, the refusal, I don't want to go take that new job in, in New York. You know, I live in Kansas, and I'm scared, but then I go and the adventures and the tricksters, and that's life. So it is really, really powerful. So I think why it's so popular.

Lynn Novick 7:21
I agree. And I was just very naive. And I just didn't appreciate the power of what Joseph Campbell had to say and how it touched that deep nerve. And people have tried to find meaning, trying to understand our human condition. And the moment we're in and how it resonates with what happened, people in the past, you know, had the same questions that we have. It was it was, I should go back and watch it again. Because I think it also does have some storytelling lessons for, you know, how to put the pieces together so that the story unfolds in the way that people can watch it.

Alex Ferrari 7:54
So I've always been fascinated, because when you can go down this road to make a just, just ridiculous 18 hours. I mean, they're, they're obscene. They're obscene. How long jazz? How long was jazz? jazz was like 10 hours, eight hours, I

Lynn Novick 8:09
think it was more like 20 because it was 10 parts. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 8:12
expect that going on. So how do you start a project like that? Like, how do you you're not just covering like Hemingway is a fairly large. We'll talk about your latest project in a minute. Hemingway is a man's life. I know you guys didn't, Mark. I'm sure if you did. I know Ken did Mark Twain. And you have Frank Frank Lloyd Wright's poster in the back. So those are specific people's lives. And that's pretty extensive. When you tackle a concept like baseball, or jazz, like the obscene amount of knowledge that you have to comb through? How do you start a project like that?

Lynn Novick 8:45
Yeah, I find the beginnings of project probably the most terrifying, because you don't at least for me, I usually don't know that much about it. So I have a huge amount to learn. And then to figure out well, how does this fit into something that could be on television, people would want to watch. And, you know, I have to say that one of the critical ways that we go about doing this is in collaboration with other people. So our writer, Jeff Ward, who Kent has worked with for longer than I've worked with Ken, he wrote the Civil War script and several other scripts before that. And he wrote baseball and jazz and all the other films Ken and I've made together so he dives into the deep end of the pool. Also, we order a lot of books, we start to read them, we start to take notes, we started to make outlines. And then we also figure out who is a smart people who are experts, in whatever subject, it happens to be, who are they and can they help us? So when the history of jazz it was when Marsalis you know, we went to see him early in the process and said, Will you help us? And he said, Yes. And then he said, here's the 10 people, you should talk to hear the 20 books you should read, and that lead to other people. So we build a kind of a team of people who really keep us on the straight and narrow in terms of what's important to include and what we don't have to include and you know how to understand that A picture that we're trying to tell. So in the start is hard.

Alex Ferrari 10:04
And I'm assuming though, as you're going through this process that, let's say you have a structured outline, and then all of a sudden you read a new book, or you hear something new from a new interview, and you're like, Oh, God, everything's got to be shifted. We got to insert this here. Now. Now, everything has been all. And I'm assuming that's a constant. It doesn't happen once in a project that happens constantly, because you discover new things in your archival or archaeology. archaeological dig, that you going through

Lynn Novick 10:29
Yes. And once the word goes out that we're working on something, people are always sending us stuff, which is so great. So the worst thing that can happen is after the film is done, and then that happening has every project Yes, of course. And it's just you sort of just feel I wish I knew about that two years ago, but what can you do? So you know, but we don't try to be the last word. So new materials always coming out about every subject. And someone else can take up the baton and continue telling that story in some other way. And you know, that's fine. With baseball, one of the challenges was there, you know, so much, there's more to now but there wasn't a lot of serious academic historical scholarship on the topic. Frankly, there were, you know, history of the Boston Red Sox, or biography of Babe Ruth, or you know, something about baseball, and the Black Sox scandal, but there wasn't really a big shelf of serious kind of academic historical work. So we really had to find historians who knew American history and happened to be baseball fans, and they could help us kind of get this in the context, because we weren't just doing a sports show, we really wanted it to be about the story of America through the lens of baseball,

Alex Ferrari 11:34
right in the watch national national parks one was, because I'm a huge national parks fan. And that's actually kind of my dream project as well, because you guys got to travel to every single

Lynn Novick 11:44
measure the water, I did work on that, but I, I know, an invitation to go to all those incredible places may have it

Alex Ferrari 11:51
must have been a rough job, like okay, we're gonna go to Yellowstone again, oh, we gotta, we gotta go to Yosemite again, you know, but those, that's another thing that you guys get to do. And sometimes, obviously, depending on the on the, on the topic, but you get to meet some of the most interesting human beings who've ever lived, you know, and, and you're talking to people who either know a lot about a subject or are part of the subject, like you said, a jet and jazz with Marcellus. He, he is like a living legend. So to talk to someone like that. I mean, that must be amazing as a documentarian to be able to talk to you talking to history, essentially,

Lynn Novick 12:28
yeah, that's one of the best parts of my job, I would say is the chance to meet and get to know people, really spend time with them and hear their stories. And, you know, you inevitably understand the history in a completely different way, once you've talked to someone who lived through it. So, I mean, I will never forget, we're working on a film on the Second World War. And some of the people we meet don't end up in the film for whatever variety of reasons. So we were trying to find some people who had been on D day and Omaha Beach, and I remember going to visit the veteran and his daughter had contacted us, and this happened a lot on that project where a family members would say you should talk to my dad or my uncle. So we would go to their home. And I remember going into this man's kitchen, and his daughter said, Dad, Dad, you know, Linda's here that they're making the document tree, they want to hear about your time in the war. And he was saying, okay, okay. And I said, so, you know, after chitchat, whatever, just not talking about the weather, then I sort of got to my point. So I understand you were on D day. And he said, Yes, I was in the engineers Battalion, which means I had to get out early to kind of take out the mines and blow up things that shouldn't be there and credibly dangerous job. Okay. So he said, so I'm sort of trying to understand what he's saying. And he said, I got out of the boat. And for me, D day, I always think, how do you get out of the boat? I mean, I would not be able to get out of the boat. But everyone's getting out. So you get out, even though you're getting fired on. He said, I got onto the beach, a shell came in and killed my best friend. And then he started to cry. And then he didn't talk anymore. So he he and he had to leave. I mean, he couldn't actually speak. understandable, right. And his daughter sort of said he never talks about this. And she had hoped that he would be able to but he actually was so traumatized. Even 60 years later, he couldn't speak about it. And even though we didn't put him in our film, because he he couldn't really participate in that way. Spending that morning with him helped me appreciate in a very visceral way. What we're asking people to do by reliving these really difficult moments and how hard that can be. And the gratitude and humility you have to have because you just, you know, the generosity of someone to even try to do that is is is sort of inspiring.

Alex Ferrari 14:48
Yeah. I mean, it's one thing to talk about jazz and talk about my good times playing baseball. Right another thing about like the Vietnam War, you did the Great War, World War Two and all these other like dark dark times in American history. That's what I love. What you can do is you really are historians of the American experiment. You know that you all I mean, is there any, it's all American based pretty much if I'm not mistaken, right? Is there anything world based? I don't?

Lynn Novick 15:20
Well, the Vietnam War is the first time for that in work that Ken and I have done together where we really tried to represent a story that was, you know, as Americans were interested in it, but the Vietnamese story wasn't as important to us, right. So we tried very hard and I, I made a number of trips to Vietnam with Sara Botstein, the producer, to get to know Vietnamese, people who had lived through the war and to hear their stories, and hear how they talk about it and what it means to them, which is very different than how we talked about it and what it means to us. So, yeah, so that's the first time we've really ventured to another country, another culture to that to gray so that the film hopefully really represented, you know, as best we could do, not just an American story,

Alex Ferrari 16:07
right? Exactly. Yeah. It wasn't a completely American point of view is like the oppressor and the pressy. kind of vibe, or that's not the proper word, but the

Lynn Novick 16:17
four antagonists or whatever, yeah, yeah, yeah, antagonists attack Exactly.

Alex Ferrari 16:21
So you got the point of view, because to us, to them, we're the bad guys to us. They were the bad guys. Like I always tell people, we're all everybody is the hero of their own story. Nobody goes to sleep twiddling their mustache going. Evil. No, everyone thinks that they're the good guy. If they're right,

Lynn Novick 16:40
which is, and you're right. And for Americans, the Vietnam War was the first time and if we really had to face as a culture, maybe we're not the good guys. Maybe we're not always good guys. And that was a reckoning, that we still haven't really sorted out.

Alex Ferrari 16:54
Because after World War Two, we're just like, you know, as you were, we're g we're super we're Superman. We're, you know, American Pie and baseball. And we saved the world. And that and we're still kind of on that high. In you know, that pr, pr is still running. But I think from the Desert Storm and all these other wars that we've gone into people's like, you know, maybe, maybe we're not always the best guys. We try. We try.

Lynn Novick 17:22
But like any human try,

Alex Ferrari 17:24
but the thing is, like any human being, we have different, you know, we can't be perfect.

Lynn Novick 17:30
Well, we're certainly not perfect. Yeah. I think if we're perfect, it would be so boring. It's exactly sitting here talking because there would be nothing to tell. So I think it's especially hard for Americans, though, to really examine our flaws and our failures. I do think culturally, like you said, We'd like to think of ourselves as the good guys, and that we're always on the right side of history, and that we, you know, stand for something that's good, and, you know, inspiring and noble. And it's a lot more complicated

Alex Ferrari 18:01
as a human being is like, you can't it like there's so many layers, like as they say, Shrek, like Shrek, you're like an onion, multiple layers, multiple layers. Now, the other thing I find fascinating about documentarian work is and I've worked on documentaries and post editing them, but nothing like a 90 minute, you know, documentary. So I have some very small experience doing that. But the durance that you need to have as a filmmaker, to sit like some of these projects not only takes years, I mean, some are like, Did you do anything to quit like a decade? Or am I exaggerating? Well,

Lynn Novick 18:41
the national parks, I think they really did work on for almost a decade. And that allowed them to visit all those parks and film them at different seasons and accumulate all that material. But but in fairness, it's not the only thing that they were working on. Right. So it's not your only project for 10 years. But you know, we might work on it a part of the time and work on something else that shorter term, and then come back to it depending on

Alex Ferrari 19:04
Yes, yeah. Cuz I'm assuming you guys don't just sit down and just do like, okay, we're just doing jazz for the next three years. You've got four or 568, different little, some like Hemingway over here and, and a jazz over here in the Vietnam War over here, Frank Lloyd Wright over here, and you're kind of like dabbling in a bunch. It kind of keeps you all busy and sane.

Lynn Novick 19:24
Yeah, well, I mean, Ken does work on I think he says he's working on eight or nine projects right now. Right. And they're all at different stages of production. So he can be in a room with one project. And, you know, the film is being let's say, they're shooting interviews for another project and developing a script for another project. So using different parts of his brain for different aspects of that, for me, I like to work on maybe no more than two or three projects at a time. So my brain can't handle it. So but that's enough. So, you know, today I'm working on one or two projects and tomorrow, but like eight or 10 I don't know how can does it honestly, it's amazing.

Alex Ferrari 19:57
It's exact, but even two or three is like you know, because as As narrative filmmakers, you generally are working on one. And that one could take two years. You might be writing maybe something else, but I've been on projects that's take two years, three years. And that's all you do all the time, it becomes kind of crazy, but the endurance is remarkable. Now I have to ask you, what do you think the job of a documentarian is, in your opinion?

Lynn Novick 20:23
Wow, you know, documentary and the time I've been working in this field, which is more than 30 years, it's really evolved. And, and even the genre such as it is, is so capacious, there's so many different kinds of documentaries and different approaches and different kind of philosophies. So, you know, it's almost hard to pin it down, because different people approach it with different expectations. So I like to think that it's a way of putting on the screen, it doesn't have to be the big screen, it could be a small stream, a true story, not based on a true story, or inspired by a true story, but an actually true story, something that really happened with real people. And that, then, you know, that's the number one for me, then is it going to be sort of a story of something that's happening right now, that would be sort of a, you know, present day story that you're following action as it happens? Or is it something that happened in the past, like what we have mostly done or though not exclusively, where you're excavating? A long ago story and trying to put the pieces together, like you were the jigsaw puzzle, of, you know, figuring out what happened. Hopefully, it has a beginning, middle, and end Aristotelian poetics of just, you know, a story that kind of makes sense, and the way that we think of narrative, which means you have to impose some kind of order. And some kind of, you know, right, you have to pick out the things that you think fit to get your beginning, middle, and end, you can have some detours along the way. But ultimately, for me, it's has to touch people, it has to have a human dimension and mean something to the people who watch it so that they are engaged in care about the story that people the information that is true, you know, and that you come away with some new perspective, or deeper understanding of some aspect of history, the human condition, what it means to be alive, you know, those kind of things,

Alex Ferrari 22:21
the because, you know, a human story, you know, history generally is not so neat, as have a middle, it's not constructed in the middle, a beginning, middle and end a human life. I mean, yes, does have a beginning, middle and end, but it could be very anti climatic, it could be very wide open, it could be multiple different things. So it's interesting how you, you are able to put together you have to put a structure, there has to be some sort of narrative story put into history, which is so much more complicated I feel than just writing what I know, I've seen in some of your other interviews that you're like, Oh, you just said it here. It's like, I can't do afresh come up with the story. I'm not that creative. But I'm gonna give you more credit than you're giving yourself is to construct a narrative out of history. Yes, sometimes it falls. But sometimes you just kind of really work it and understand the structure of story. So well, even more so than I think when you're creating it.

Lynn Novick 23:17
That may be I've never tried the scripting adventure. So that seems like it would be harder and easier for me that, you know, I came to understand this in a deeper way, when I was working on documentaries that I made over a number of years called college behind bars where we were filming not history, but life as it was happening. And it was filmed over four years, as we got to know people, Sarah Botstein, a producer, and I got to know people who were in prison who were enrolled in college, which is very unusual, because most people in prison don't have access to college of any kind. And they were in this incredibly rigorous and impressive program called the Bard prison initiative in upstate New York. So you know, we would come in and out of the facility multiple times a year with our cameras, sometimes without our cameras, other times, get to know people, or hopefully earn their trust over time, and follow them around through classes, into the yard into their selves, you know, meet their families, and kind of understand the beginning, middle and end was basically you're enrolling in the program. And hopefully, four years from now there'll be graduation. So luckily, school does have a beginning, middle and end, right. So we knew, we hope we begin with, you know, orientation and end with graduation. But along the way, we had 400 hours of material of all kinds of things, you know, that we didn't know how they would fit into our film or not, and you just be kept filming. And a lot of the times we wanted to call the company seat of the pants productions, because we just had I felt we had no idea what we were doing. But if we sort of showed up enough, maybe it would all make sense later. And working with our editor, Fisher Reedy and assistant editor chase Horton meet eventually managed to kind of wrestle these 400 hours into four one hours where you really get To know people and see how they evolve, and are transformed by the process of education, and overtime, get to know why they're in prison and their families. And some of them came out of prison while we were filming. But at the beginning, we had no idea. And we really did have to impose a structure on each scene. And each episode, and on the whole thing,

Alex Ferrari 25:20
there wasn't any structure. Right? And that's the thing that I feel that with, with the historical documentaries that you do you do those? They're safer in a sense, because, you know, you're discovering the archival, yes, you'll have surprises. And yes, you'll have things but it's not gonna hit you not gonna blindside you. Whereas if you're following real life, it's unfolding in front of you are on the edge, you really have no idea and you might start the documentary and the story in one way. And then all of a sudden, it just turns like, that wonderful document or Hoop Dreams back in the day. Oh, my God, like, how did that like, you know, just the like, Oh, my God like it. So something like that you really it's a completely different kind of documentary and different kind of filmmaker to go down that. How did that feel jumping from? From very safe, historical, very long, laborious, you know, process to? I'm on the edge? Like, you're like, Yeah, what's happening? How did that?

Lynn Novick 26:21
I mean, it's kind of exhilarating and terrifying, and exhilarating, in a sense of is exciting, because you don't know what's gonna happen. Right? And you sort of are open to whatever happens, we'll figure it out. But it's also certainly scary to think, wow, what if I mean, I had the feeling okay, we started this film. But what if the Department of Corrections which gave us incredible access, or the students, the people in the film decided they didn't want to do it anymore? Right, that could have happened, someone could have said, you know, what, actually, we're not doing this anymore, for whatever reason, that could have happened or, and things did happen. People got in trouble and was transferred to another facility and couldn't be in the program anymore, or something happened in their personal life or, you know, academic things, whatever. Just all kinds of things happen that you can't predict in life. But when you're trying to make a film, it can be very destabilizing. You just have to stay open to that. But you know, even with historical films, I mean, for the Vietnam War, it may seem like it made all sense when you see the final film, but at the beginning, we're not at all sure what the hell we're doing. Yeah. Because, first of all, I've never been to Vietnam, I don't speak Vietnamese, we have to go and want to go over there and meet people and figure out how to what questions to ask them, and who to talk to, and how we're going to do that. And we've never really thought about the Vietnam War, from the perspective of the Vietnamese get turns out, it's really complicated. So even just, and we wanted it to be from the ground up ordinary people telling their stories, but then we have to figure out well, we're not going to interview john mccain and john kerry and Henry Kissinger, we're going to talk to regular people with regular people. So it was you know, word of mouth and sort of going out into the world and trying to find people who fit certain criteria that we had of being in the anti war movement or being on a college campus or being you know, a soldier who then turned against the war, we had like different ideas of things, or someone who covered the war. But we didn't really know what that would be. It all makes if we do our job right at the end. It looks like it all fits in and makes sense. But it really doesn't at the beginning. And even at the middle of we're not too sure.

Alex Ferrari 28:31
Now with college behind bars, I wanted to wanted you to kind of express to the audience what it felt like because I was I was I had the privilege of doing location scouts for a film that I was going to direct and every prison in Florida, I went to every prison that would allow us to I was to shoot there if we wanted to shoot it. I got access to it. And I'd never been in, you know, in prison. I you know, I was a boy from Florida like, I mean, I I'm a good boy, I don't have never been in prison. So when you walk through those gates, and you feel the energy, and we were in empty areas, we weren't within you anywhere there was inmates, though, we did see like some of them were very low, low security, low security areas, so that you see them walking and stuff. But I never was in a place where there was like, you know, as as they said, the HBO show oz or something like that. I wasn't in that. But that feeling of that place, the energy the almost the ghosts, if you will, of that place. Did you feel that? And you were going into a place with live, you know, people and interacting with people. Can you express to people about how that goes and how you put that onto the screen with college behind bars?

Lynn Novick 29:48
Yeah, thank you for asking. You know, I do think it's important for all of us as citizens to try to have some proximity to the problem of criminal justice and incarceration. In our society, which is horrendous and appalling, and it's, it's not easy to get access, if you're not don't have a family member that's caught up in this, you know, it's far away from most of us, and it's behind walls. And so I had never had the experience of being inside of prison until I got invited with Sarah to give a lecture basically, in this college program, and that we went into that we went through the, you know, the double gate, and then the other double gate and then walking through the, you know, long hallway and kind of could see the yard over there, and then down another hallway and then update, you know, I remember every step of this way into past an officer into a classroom. You know, it's, it's an oppressive, dehumanizing, really just degrading and oppressive environment. And it's meant to be that way, nothing, there's by accident, it's all by design. It's very purposeful, and especially, probably do in Florida. But in New York State, the majority of prisoners are black and brown, the majority of the officers are white, the dynamics of how control is managed and security is done is I found extremely disturbing. Just, I did feel, you know, it's just I found it really, really upsetting and disturbing, to say the least. And yet. I also think it's easy for us if we have seen Oz, or locked up, or the other kind of Hollywood versions of incarceration, to have a very skewed perception of what is actually like, and one of the most profound things that one of the students that we've gotten to know really well said, is that suicide is a much bigger problem than homicide inside prisons. It's about despair, and loneliness, and isolation, and giving up hope, and a place where there is no hope. And people, you know, to compensate in different ways in that environment. And so we have this image of this violence and you know, awful things happening, but actually, it's most, a lot of it is really designed to make people isolated and lonely. And to not care.

Alex Ferrari 32:11
Yeah, I'll tell you the one of the officers, that was our tour guide, he actually is like, do you want to go on one of the cells and I went into one of the cells and they shut the door behind me. And that's sound, I'll never forget the sound, I'll never forget the sound because I'm like, I'm playing, I'm cosplaying this right. Now. This is right. This is not real for me. But I can, I can feel it. It is a feeling and you were like, it was visceral. And I was a young man, I was in my mid 20s at that time. And boy, was it powerful. And I agree with you. I think if any of you ever, everybody could just feel that. I think our opinions of that whole system, honestly, needs to be needs to be addressed in a very, very, very big way.

Lynn Novick 32:55
I agree. Well, that office experience that we had, you know, we did, we spent a fair amount of time inside people's house with them. And when you see the film, people who are the people that we got to know are college students, so their cells are full of books. So you're seeing American literature, art, history, philosophy, economics, algebra, Mandarin, you know, all the things they're studying, they're their selves are full of books, and they're doing serious academic work, while in this very inhumane space. So there's kind of like a cognitive dissonance about that. But also, it's extraordinarily inspiring to see that even in this dark place. They hold on to and many of them have talked about this just a sense of hope that there's something other than this place. And the way to move through it is to make sure you use your time the best you can and to, you know, open your mind in whatever way you can.

Alex Ferrari 33:47
Yeah, I would, I would, I would completely lose myself in in books, I would completely lose myself into that I would escape into that, because that just makes the most the most sense. The most sense without question. Now you were talking about 400 hours for this project? 400 hours, cut down to four hours? Uh huh. I mean, I've edited 25 years. So I understand the process. I've never had 400 hours of footage. So how do you be? I mean, I'm assuming it's a team. There's not one person?

Lynn Novick 34:23
Well, you know, in all honesty, because we're shooting digitally these days of cameras rolling, especially if we're in a prison where you just, you know, yeah, just keep rolling, because you never know. So there's a lot of that 400 hours, probably 50 hours, you don't even ever look at that just as just like, you're walking down the hall or whatever, and you're not really you know, but nonetheless, we filmed interviews, so we transcribe them only pick out the best, you know, moments from those. We filmed a lot of classes because it's a film about college. So in those an hour long class might be five minutes. That's really interesting. So we sort of like whittled down from the beginning, that what we'd say the highlights, and then we basically put them in a String out and watch it and our string out was like nine hours long. So then it was just that's not bad, though. 400 to nine, you know?

Alex Ferrari 35:08
Yeah. Right. And in the scope of the projects, you do nine hours, bad.

Lynn Novick 35:12
Yeah, well, we were planning to make a feature length Doc, though, at the beginning, we had nine hours to boil down to 90 minutes. And I realized that's not going to be possible and make what would be possible, of course, but we just decided to go back to PBS and saying, you know, what, this material is so rich, and they actually had said at the beginning, you know, you might end up with something bigger than the feature because this is a very profound and, you know, rich story to tell, and to get to know people and see what happens to them. So you know, we, it, I have, our editors do an enormous amount of the time spent looking at the material over and over and getting to know it really, really well, and picking out the things they think work best. And then we would react to that and kind of fine tune and home with them. And we also brought in the people who were in the film, if they had been released from prison, especially to see it and kind of help us to get back to my point about being authentic authenticity and being true. You know, they live this and we've got a version of it, that we captured with our cameras, right? But we didn't want to put something out that didn't feel authentic and true to them. Because you know, you have the camera on for a little while you turn it off, or you look over here, but something else happened that you didn't notice. And just there's a lot of subtleties to what gets into, you know, gets captured on film or whatever we capture things on nowadays. It's always

Alex Ferrari 36:39
it's it's hard because I need to Xerox like, it's just film film is gonna be film, I need to film it or I need to tape it. You know? It's just the way it is. I just heard I heard a newscaster the other day say like, Oh, yeah, we were taping this. I'm like, they were on it was on an iPhone. It was on an iPhone, come on. But it's just it's just it's part of the lexicon. Now, tell me about your new project Hemingway, which is a fascinating subject. He is such a larger than life figure in American history. In the literary world, he is a giant up there with Mark Twain and Shakespeare. I mean, he is our Shakespeare in many ways, a give or take. But he is a giant and has so much information or like, even I, I've read a bunch of Hemingway, you know, growing up and right, but and but the myth of who Hemingway is, is larger than life. It's as art like I don't know much about Stephen King's personal life, though he is a giant in the literary world as well. Different than Hemingway. But, you know, other than a few things he's not there's not a myth about him. No, there is a myth about Hemingway, how did you go to tackle this subject matter?

Lynn Novick 37:56
Yeah, well, you you you really hit the nail on the head there because Hemingway is unusual in the sense that he, the myth is sometimes bigger than him. And I think many people that we talked to said it kind of gets in the way of actually seeing him. But he's so famous because of this myth. His work is extraordinary, as he said, but it's the myth that people know. And he created that that didn't just happen to him. He was the reason why there's a myth. He very consciously created this persona, and then kind of fed the flames of that throughout his life in very conscious and sort of

purposeful ways. Was he branding? Yes, exactly.

Alex Ferrari 38:39
He was branding himself. He was he was, he was an influencer before they were influencers.

Lynn Novick 38:44
Exactly. He understood all of that in a way that I think a lot of writers don't, or wouldn't want to more than like a movie star, or a rock star, you know, he had a sense of his brand. From a young age. It's fascinating, really. And that's a story in and of itself.

Alex Ferrari 38:59
Before there was ever a concept of a brand, like a human being being a brand. Like, you know, Marilyn Monroe became a brand but Maryland did not know about it when you know, those big movie stars of the day did not think about that. But you're right, we're using rock star movie star, he essentially is the rock star or movie star of the literary world.

Lynn Novick 39:19
Yeah, I agree. And that's not necessarily the best thing for a writer, just to say, you know, he's not playing arenas, you know, anything like it on the big screen, right? So he's writing in his room on his typewriter. So but what he was famous for was kind of these escapades, you know, hunting and fishing and you have, there's, I can't tell you how many pictures that are of him posed with the enormous fish he caught or the animal that he shot, you know, or in kind of like pretending to be boxing, you know, all these really macho sort of what we would now call hyper masculine poses. And even in his own lifetime, it got a little tired, and there was criticism of it. You know, Even then he was he was at the extreme of this masculine persona. And he also kind of knew that, but I think he was trapped by it at a certain point. And it's true. He did enjoy the things that he was famous for doing. But having to perform the role of being Hemingway must have been sauce very tiring. Yeah, exhausting. Exactly.

Alex Ferrari 40:23
Yeah, cuz once you build a myth like that, you've got to live up to it.

Lynn Novick 40:27
Right? And it's

Alex Ferrari 40:28
a beast that you can't control. And that's the thing about brands and about your career, your legend or your myth that you create. It goes off and you can't, if you build to a point, it becomes its own monster. And I think I think the myth is the monster that ate Hemingway. Unfortunately, unfortunately, at the end, it was too much for him. Yeah,

Lynn Novick 40:50
I mean, it is it's a tragic story back to our hero's journey from Joseph Campbell there, you know, it's, there's hubris, and there's just tragedy that happens to him and some things he's responsible for, and some things he isn't. There's a family history of mental illness. And so, you know, you're born with that that's a something you can't control and the time when he was alive, certainly true now, but even more so then there's such stigma around mental illness, depression, anxiety, no one talked about that. They would say, somebody went for a rescue here, or they're just taking a break or something, you know, you would rather I don't know. I mean, the shame of going to a mental hospital. You know, he didn't want that. And he was suffering from very serious psychotic depression, among other things at the time that he should have gone to a mental hospital.

Alex Ferrari 41:41
Did he write any of his works? While really going through some episodes?

Lynn Novick 41:50
Yes, I I'm, I'm not sure I can line up everything chronologically. Exactly. But he also suffered from alcoholism, chronic alcoholism, which no one does affect your power to

Alex Ferrari 42:06
mission, mythical alcoholism. I mean, yes,

Lynn Novick 42:09
he glorified drinking, right. So but then he, you know it that got the better of him. And then also, he suffered from a number of serious concussions, head injuries, over the course of his life, probably eight or nine very serious concussions, which now we know that does really serious damage to your brain and your capacity to think and function and your moods and can cause depression and paranoia and all the horrible things we've seen happening with people who have suffered from traumatic brain injury and CTE. He had no idea about that. So he, you know, one of the psychiatrists who studied his trajectory suggests that he had a kind of a dementia, which is not like you don't know your name, but you there's a kind of confusion and lack of capacity to really do organize thinking. And he really struggled with writing. The last 10 years of his life, he had a lot of projects, he couldn't finish any of them. He couldn't figure out how to edit himself. He was just sort of overwhelmed with a lot of ideas, but nothing really jelling. And he did manage to write the old man to see in the middle of all of that, by some miracle, they had a few months of clarity. But before and after that he was really a mess.

Alex Ferrari 43:24
It's it's fascinating. What was the one thing that you discovered by Hemingway that you did not know when you started this project? that surprised you?

Lynn Novick 43:36
Well, I mean, a lot of things surprised me because I was not an expert when we started the project. So it's hard to say the one thing but one of the more fascinating themes that emerged in the course of making the film was an eye maybe I kind of vaguely had heard this, but I don't think I really understood it, that he for this hyper masculine guy, who played the part of the man who was the man's man, right, who was always strong and tough and didn't betray weakness, and, you know, courageous and morally right, and all these things that he, you know, held such high esteem. He was vulnerable. He was anxious, he was empathetic, he was concerned about how male behavior affected women. So he writes about that really beautifully in ways that I don't, I didn't fully understand. And that, you know, we have this phrase now toxic masculinity, which I didn't have that in my vocabulary 10 years ago, but I understand what it is now. Hemingway could be the embodiment of that in his personal life, in his relationships with his wives and other women in his life, but in his work at times, and not always, he critiques that, so he writes a story called hills like white elephants, where it's a man and woman at a train station. This is written in the 1920s. So it was quite, you know, I don't know, risky thing for him to do. But it was unusual in that it was about an abortion. man wants a woman to have an abortion. Now, she doesn't want to, they never say the word abortion, he just keeps saying to her, it's just a simple operation. They just let the air in, and then you'll be fine. We'll be just like we were before. I promise. It's just a little operation. And she's not sure. And he keeps at her and at her at her. And when you read the story, you're not thinking, Well, what a great, strong, tough guy this is, you're thinking this guy's a jerk. I don't care if you're a man or woman reading that story, your sympathy, and you're the hero where the moral center of the story is the woman. At one point, she just says, Tim, will you please, please, please, please, please, please stop talking. And, you know, the Hemingway the myth of Hemingway should be capable of right having the sensitivity to write that story in the way

Alex Ferrari 45:58
that he does. And that's that's the beautiful duality with Hemingway is that he portrays this complete macho man drink until you're you fall over, then get up and smoke a cigar and write a masterpiece, you know, while while you're in the keys are in Cuba, and then you're hanging out with Fidel and all this, like all of that, that's the myth. But if once I did, I've seen parts of not all of them, because again, it's six hours, and I have children. But the parts that I have seen that he when he was younger, was dressed as a girl, and his sister was dressed as a boy. And above that, through the through his life, he actually had his wives cut their hair short. And they would this gender kind of thing that they he would like he would play with. there's a there's a sensitivity behind all of all of that macho pneus. And I found that to be true with. I've mean, I've spoken to many, many people in my life. And I've met many, many interesting human beings in the entertainment industry, the more macho, big they are, generally, the more insecure, the more scared, the more they lash out, because they they want to show any, and they can't show any weakness, because of something that happened in their childhood or something like that. It seems very similar to with Hemingway, he put this, this shield up, I think it was almost a protective thing for him, because he didn't want anybody to know who he really was. But it would slip through in his writing, he couldn't hold it back there. So that's really, he's such an interesting character.

Lynn Novick 47:34
I agree completely. And you know, that, that what you just described is something I was sort of focused on, we started the project on this kind of obnoxious mess, and some beautiful writing that I loved. And I didn't understand the complexities of what you just described, until I've gone all the way through the whole life. And, you know, late in his life, he he started to write more explicitly about his interest in gender fluidity and in gender role playing and in a kind of vulnerability in his intimate life. He never published that during his lifetime, but his family has allowed some of this material to be published, especially in the novel called the Garden of Eden, which is not my favorite in terms of Hemingway, great work. But in terms of understanding Hemingway, the man, it's really fascinating. You see a man, his wife is sort of transitioning to male, I would say in the story, and they bring in another woman into the relationship. So there's a polyamory component to this, the husband becomes kind of the female in bed with her, the wife who's more of the becoming more of the husband, and then this other woman, and it's very interesting and relatable to us today, in a way that in his lifetime, I think, you know, what, if he couldn't publish it, let's put it that way.

Alex Ferrari 48:48
Right. I mean, it be interesting to see how, because and there's that whole concept now kancil culture, and you know, like, you know, oh, you can't say that you can't do this. You can't do that. There's a lot of stuff in Hemingway, that is arguably like, when's that? When's that shoe gonna drop? And he second now, when is it? When is someone going to go? Well, we can't we got to pull out these books that I mean, Hemingway's, which, what do you think? I don't want to talk about canceled culture in general, but specifically with Hemingway? Why do you think that he kind of transcends that? Because there's nothing like if they're, if they're knocking out, you know, the Swedish chef, and, and Dr. Seuss, I mean, anyways, a much easier target than Dr. Seuss. So what do you Yeah, makes his work kind of almost impenetrable to that kind of, you know, what makes him stand away from that?

Lynn Novick 49:43
Yeah, you know, we'll see how it all plays out.

Alex Ferrari 49:46
We're still early.

Lynn Novick 49:49
And I'm glad we're having a conversation as a society about you know, reevaluating these icons of the past and looking at them honestly for who they really were and what they really said. And what They say about us good and bad. And I think that's healthy. And I'm not big on the Pantheon, where you can only have so many people up on Mount Rushmore, or you know, it can only be four writers and you have to pick, I think we have room for a lot of people to be read and discussed and to whose voices matter. And it certainly shouldn't just be Hemingway by any means. But taking him out of the equation is a mistake, too, because he helps us understand some of the problems and challenges in his limitations, as well as his strengths, raises incredibly offensive words, hurtful words, he, there's anti semitism in his work that I personally find deeply offensive. But it doesn't mean that I don't want to read this on all survivors, it means that when I do read this, I'm also rises, I'm going to be thinking about anti semitism in our culture, and why does it exist? Does it still exist? Why would you know, what does it say about the people who read this book then? and loved it? You know, it's in other words, it's part of our history that we have to face, like it or not. And there's also potentially a critique of those things in there, too, if you want to look at it that way.

Alex Ferrari 51:10
I mean, look, you know, look at Mark Twain. I mean, you look you read Huck Finn. I mean, he's saying some stuff. That's probably not the most PC stuff in the world nowadays to listen, but I always find it, especially in history, and you're much more more of a historian than I am. But from my, my, my limited perspective is in history. It is a product of its time, and has to be looked through those that lens. If it's being brought into today's world, there's a conversation to go, you know, what, what they said, there isn't appropriate from our point of view, they're just like, and I promise you and everyone listening in 100 years, they're going to be looking at stuff that we're doing and going Yeah, well, we really the social media thing, not really the best idea, you know, you know, polluting the entire planet and killing ourselves. So not denying the global warming, not the smartest thing. So we're going to be judged as well. So

Lynn Novick 52:04
I think we should be and we should be right. Yeah, look, I mean, just because you brought him up Shakespeare, there's racism, there's anti semitism, there's misogyny, you know, and we don't just say, well, we're not going to read Shakespeare or we aren't going to ignore those things. We're going to have that conversation. You know,

Alex Ferrari 52:21
it's as a teaching tool, I feel it's a teaching more than anything. With my daughter's with my daughters, as I'm watching things sometimes now, you know, things that I grew up mechanical things I grew up with. I mean, I'm stuffed suffice on TV, some episodes of Tom and Jerry, some Looney Tunes episodes, which are straight up just racist, completely racist. And we didn't think twice about it. And then my daughters will watch something. And they'll point out what is that? And then there's a conversation to be had about it. It's a teaching tool at this point in the game, but you can't sanitize it. Because,

Lynn Novick 52:57
right when,

Alex Ferrari 52:58
let's say a child is sanitized from all of that. And when they hit that, imagine getting hit with racism for the first time at 30. Yeah, you can't. It's a difficult, like the concept of racism, like you've

Lynn Novick 53:10
been so sheltered. Now. It's out there, right?

Alex Ferrari 53:13
You shouldn't really

Lynn Novick 53:14
Yeah, I do think with children's literature and children's books and children's media, it's maybe a little bit different criteria, right. And for adults, because we have the tools hopefully to kind of have that critique in conversation. We're working on a film, Ken and Sarah Botstein and I about America's response to the Holocaust. Right? So we're, and we're trying to understand anti semitism as a factor of life in Germany, and we came across a book that the Nazis put out a picture book, about the horrible Jews and how they are, you know, subhuman. And, you know, we'll destroy you and put you in the beautiful illustrations, incredible, you know, with a devil. And I mean, if you were a kid reading that you would just, it's captivating. So I kind of think, well, maybe for children's literature, we have to have different criteria, because children don't have the framework

Alex Ferrari 54:06
or the tools

Lynn Novick 54:07
to read that. Right. Exactly. So I understand the impulse to remove some Dr. Seuss books, because, and that was done by the estate, when they decided they didn't want these books out there anymore. You know, the cat in the hat is still great.

Alex Ferrari 54:21
Look at the cat hat is still great. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's, we're living in very interesting times, and I'm as a documentarian, I'm assuming you're looking around going, Jesus, I'm just pulled there's so much I want to say right now, there's so many different projects I want to do. But out of all the projects you've done, which is the most difficult which is the one that was the longest, just even if it wasn't timewise just difficult to get through because you've tackled some tough subject matter.

Lynn Novick 54:48
I you know, I think, truly the Vietnam War series and the college behind bars which we were working on, more or less at the same time, both were dealing with enormous trauma traumatic extreme. variances and tragedy. And cause behind bars was also an uplifting story of transformation. But there's tragedy and devastating human experience within it. So and the Vietnam War is just an unending tragedy. So spending the time to get to know people who are still carrying that loss and grief, unprocessed, and anger and rage and disillusionment, especially with our country. As we said before, sort of, you know, we weren't always the good guys, and our leaders lied to us and let us down and told us we were there for one reason, or other reasons, or the reasons kept changing, or said, we were winning when we weren't or minimize casualties on all sides, just the kind of the betrayal, I would say, of the American government, of the people by the government, and the Vietnamese government. Not a whole lot better, by the way. So you just have epic tragedy on all sides, kind of sitting with that, for all those years was

Alex Ferrari 56:02
difficult to to me day in, day out. I've been emotionally spiritually it must been rough.

Lynn Novick 56:09
Yeah. and spending time with the people who were still carrying that weight. And then, you know, watching the film, as it evolved with some of the veterans that we got to know and some of the people who protested the war and still felt very raw about it. It was it was really painful, I think. So that that experience that sits with me, and there are some days both on both of those projects of, especially filming interviews with people who shared extremely difficult stories and really open themselves up in ways that I have never experienced before. was just a profound experience that I will never forget.

Alex Ferrari 56:51
Now, I have to ask you, I because I'm not I just need to know your opinion. What do you feel about the rise of the docu series? Oh, of Tiger, King of those kind of, you know, that's why I want I know you cringe right there for people that watching she cringed. I want to know what a true documentarian who's, you know, considered a very serious award winning someone who's deadly serious about what you do. For debt. You know, for decades now, there is a rise of docu series, and some are really good. Some are, you know, Tiger King is just what it is. I'm not specifically asking you to comment on specific ones unless you'd like to, but just in general, the whole rise of docu series, because there are some docu series that are fascinating to watch.

Lynn Novick 57:38
Absolutely, absolutely.

Alex Ferrari 57:40
We just, which is the one that we just want. My wife was watching the one on the Menendez brothers, and now that there's a whole movement to free them Menendez brothers, and I'm like, are you like, there's a bunch of millennials? Oh, like freedom. They were like, What is going on? And watch that whole series? My wife and I were just like, are we free Brittany? Like that, you know, that whole thing? That was a fascinating document. She's just sitting there going again, and please. Well, you can do

Lynn Novick 58:07
it. I'm just curious, oh, wait into this. I don't I you know, I look. Sometimes I feel there's a very fine line between telling someone's story and exploiting them and sensationalizing them and actually using them. And, you know, and sort of having the it's really a reality TV kind of ethos in the documentary, space clothing or whatever, right? And so the people are kind of performing, you know, outsize version of themselves like Hemingway did. Right. But you know, they're not there. They're, yeah, they're on camera. So but, you know, how much are they able to really have agency and that maybe a lot? You know, there's it's just it gets very complicated, I think in terms of what is a documentary and what is kind of a performance. Now, everybody, when there's a camera on them, including me, right now, we all perform to some degree, we're, you know, if I were just talking to you on the street, it would be a different conversation. We all know that. But if you are being filmed, and you're sort of the more you act outrageous, and the more you just play it up, the more you're going to be on screen, then you know, that's what happens. So everybody gets it, and everyone is part of that. So some So anyway, I think some of the some of it is in that mode, right? And Tiger King I would say I didn't watch the whole thing I heard it was great. It was beginning of the pandemic entertaining, entertaining as heck back great. It totally entertaining. But after a while, I just thought, where's this all going? I don't know if I really care in the end. So

Alex Ferrari 59:47
it was it was it was a I think the timing of that release. It was the beginning of the pandemic. That's why I was at home. And everybody was like, What is this? I saw it come across my screen. I was like, what I saw my wife I was like, why are you watching this? And I'm like, because I it's the pandemic and there's nothing I gotta watch this. And it was a UK it was it was but it was a train wreck. It was a train wreck and you were watching the train wreck and that is very reality show style stuff. Whereas in you know Oscar winning documentaries like searching for sugar man, or, or the wire? Is it the wire or the Yeah, the

Lynn Novick 1:00:22
wire is actually not a documentary. A great TV. No,

Alex Ferrari 1:00:26
no, the one about the guy who, who won the Oscar. Yeah, man, a man or a white man on what? You watch those kinds of stories and you're just like, Oh, my God, that's like amazing storytelling.

Lynn Novick 1:00:38
I, you know, I look, I mean, I think a docu series is wonderful, because it's like reading a novel or having an extended podcast where you really dive in and get to know people and a story from multiple perspectives and over time. So if you listen to cereal for eight hours, you get really sucked into Who are these people. And there's different ways to think about this. And, you know, if it's artfully done, it's totally captivating. And I'm really thrilled that these that there's a huge audience for this kind of storytelling and these kind of stories to be told. I just when it gets into the sort of sensational, almost exploitation, exploitative realm. I get uncomfortable. So like making a murderer, right. That was fascinating. Right? You know, that was landmark docu series. I'm not sure in the end, that they fully gave you all the information you needed. They sort of shielded certain parts of the story from the audience. I think that is problematic. I loved oj Made in America. I thought that was one of the greatest amazing share brilliance. Yeah, absolutely.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:43
But there's, but I think at the end, that opens the appetite for other documentaries. And I think that's a good thing. You know, so Tiger King probably brought in a generation or a bunch of audience to the concept of a docu series. And now there'll be more interested in might be watching, you know, one of your projects or college behind bars or something along those lines, because they associated the docu series. I could jump into them. It just yeah, I think it helps everybody. It does help everyone, even though some of it might be more exploitive. It does open up hopefully the audience to other great documentaries.

Lynn Novick 1:02:15
I agree. And to get back to what you said at the beginning. It's about real people. You know, so there's something absolutely fascinating about this is not an actor, right? So person doing their thing, whatever it is. This is not somebody wearing a costume,

Alex Ferrari 1:02:30
right? Or superheroes outfit or a giant lizard or giant girls. But yeah,

Lynn Novick 1:02:36
there's something is absolutely fascinating for us as human beings to be eavesdrop on somebody else's life.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:42
What's the voyeuristic is that voyeuristic thing that you know why voyeurism is such a powerful thing. I mean, Hitchcock knew that extremely well.

Lynn Novick 1:02:50
I know, I was thinking

Alex Ferrari 1:02:52
extremely well. We're all fascinated, like, Who's What? What's going on behind that closed door out there? What's going on? And that's what documentaries do. They peek you through the door like yours. Like in Hemingway, you're seeing things that were not made public, you know, and you're seeing things behind the scenes that are really, you know, almost voyeuristic in a way. I had one other question for you in regards to because the kind of the kind of documentary you are is you tell the story. You tell the truth. You put it all out there. But there are documentarians and filmmakers who put themselves in the story. They're the guy they're the narrator. The supersize me the Michael Moore, the michael moore's very famously, who put themselves in the documentary, how do you what do you feel about those kind of stories? And that kind of, I mean, just not specifically just filmmakers, but just, it's a different kind of documentary?

Lynn Novick 1:03:41
Yeah, it's wonderful. I mean, I think in a way, it's very honest, because then you know, who's telling you this story? Here's the guy or the woman whose story this is there's no kind of objective, anonymous, invisible force of story, God, whatever. It's, here's the person who's you know, Michael Moore is going to walk you around and tell you what it is. And I think if it works, it can be really powerful. I actually admire filmmakers for being brave enough to put themselves in. And, you know, be in front of the camera. I hate to do that. My partner is a psychiatrist. His name is Ken Rosenberg, and he's also a documentary filmmaker. And he when I first met him, which was five years ago, he said, I'm working on a film. And it's about serious mental illness in America. And he, he filmed at the LA, the emergency room in LA for a number of years, and people who were in psychotic states, and then followed them over time. And as he was working on the film, he realized he needed to put himself in it, which is why so he ended up basically narrating it and being on camera, talking about his own story of his sister's descent into schizophrenia and how she died and how he'd been carrying this burden as a doctor who couldn't help his own sister and how many families suffered so and he very consciously chose to use himself and his story. To kind of ground the film, and so then, you know, well who's telling me this story? And why should I care. And it was, you know, he didn't start out wanting to do that. But it was a really powerful device was also helpful for him to exercise his own demons and tell the story. The film is called Bedlam. And he got to DuPont last year. I'm very proud of him. It's Yeah, so but it was a really good example of the power of the on camera filmmaker, being inside the story and helping you guide you through it, and also being really transparent about why this story is even being told in the first place. So it can really work well.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:34
Yeah, it's a way to connect the audience to the subject matter sometimes, because something's like jazz or baseball, you don't need someone walking you through it. It's not a weird, it'd be weird. Like, Hey, hi, how you doing? I'm Alex. And we're gonna back in the day like that's just like, it seems very kind of kitschy, and it doesn't really like something you would see on Sunday at like three o'clock on. Unlike you're not even local public access, it would just be like, it's a weird thing. But certain topics like supersize me was all about him going through the process. He's the subject, you know, which was, I mean, I mean, he literally changed McDonald's. I know. Like, it was remarkable, that whole world. And I have a couple questions I want to I asked all my guests. What advice would you give a documentarian wanting to break into the film business and into the business of making documentaries today?

Lynn Novick 1:06:29
I'm of two minds.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:31
Let's explore less explicit. Yeah.

Lynn Novick 1:06:34
You know, I think, you know, be sure you're passionate about the story you want to tell? And why you want to tell it and really drill down on that, why you care about it, and what you can say that hasn't been said. And then most important, how will that affect the people who you're going to be filming? which is sort of back to our Tiger King point? You know, is this going to be something that will, your subjects will be okay with when it's over. And I'm not talking about expos day of, you know, corporate malfeasance. If you want to make a documentary about Purdue pharma and the sacklers. Go for it. They deserve whatever bad things can happen to them as far

Alex Ferrari 1:07:13
as I'm concerned.

Lynn Novick 1:07:14
Right. But if you're talking about ordinary people, and you're gonna write so but if you're gonna film just your neighbor, and their relationship with their dog, or something like the truffle hunters, let's say, you saw that right? So is this, why are you doing it? And what are you trying to say? And is it honorable to our larger point, but if you're passionate, and you have a story that you think needs to be told, then you should go for it.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:39
And it's so affordable to do it nowadays? I mean, the cameras are expensive. It's super inexpensive and made before you had to get the film camera and the dad and all that stuff. I'm assuming you guys shot some film back. Yeah. And cut it on flatbed. And

Lynn Novick 1:07:54
the four guys who repaired the scene bags went out of business about 20 years ago. But yes, yes. infrastructure of that world. So, you know, yeah, I think the mode of production is much cheaper and more available and more democratized. You can film it on your iPhone, you can cut it on your laptop, you can put it out on YouTube, you know, so the barrier to entry is zero. So it's more just, is the story worth telling? Is it really important? Is it gonna be worth your spending X amount of time of your life to tell this story?

Alex Ferrari 1:08:22
Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life? Oh, wow.

Lynn Novick 1:08:31
That's such a profound question. Not sure I can answer it. A few things come to mind. The longest to learn. I've learned a lot of lessons. So I, you know, pop this, I don't know if that took me the longest to learn. But it's something I hold on to is how important it is to just be present. And especially now, it's so hard because we're so distracted. I haven't looked at my phone the entire time we've been talking. And that's maybe a record, you know. So, to really, but that's, you know, I'm here with you. I'm not doing anything else. And that's great. We've had a great conversation. And I think we lose that so easily. Just, you know, yeah. How often have I been doing something and I get distracted, and then I'm lost. And then I don't come back to where I was. And so trying staying focused and being present. And just letting things happen because you are present is really, really important. And I think it's it takes a lot of discipline to do that. Especially now it's really really hard.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:35
And three of your favorite films or documentaries of all time.

Lynn Novick 1:09:40
Oh, wow. Okay, well films of all time. I don't have the Godfather way up there on high on the list. Yes. Which, you know, I don't know that's a desert island movie. I could watch it over and over again. So there's there's a few others. I've just documentaries. There's so many I don't know. That's really hard to say. Wish I was prepared for that I have a list.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:02
What comes to what comes to the top of your head?

Lynn Novick 1:10:05
Well, interestingly, under Francis Ford Coppola sort of genre the hearts of darkness. As such, it writes

Alex Ferrari 1:10:12
Eleanor Eleanor Coppola hits Wow. Oh my god, what

Lynn Novick 1:10:17
an amazing documentary amazing documentary. It's about the making of Apocalypse. Now, for anyone who doesn't know an apocalypse now, it's kind of a flawed film, but has moments of brilliance in it. And her telling him how challenging that was. I wasn't a filmmaker when I saw it. But it really stuck with me, eyes on the prize, which was a series on PBS in the 80s, about the civil rights movement, had a huge profound impression on me because it was first time I'd seen that kind of storytelling, just regular people who were witnesses and participants in history, telling their stories. It's such an important historic experiences of our country that I had read about in books, but I did not understand and seeing eyes on the prize brought that epic time in our history, vividly to life and just indelible ways. So that's way up there on the list for me,

Alex Ferrari 1:11:07
well, Lim, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you all things documentary, and I tell everybody out there to please go watch Hemingway and all of your films, honestly. I mean, if you if you've got like a year or two to put away cuz it's gonna take you a minute to watch it. How many hours have you like, I read somewhere, like 80 hours or something like

Lynn Novick 1:11:29
that, if you like that, but it's been 30 years.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:31
Right? So I mean, it's not like you just did that last week. I mean, it is, but but Thank you, sir. Thank you so much for doing what you do and fighting the good fight as a documentarian and telling the truth out there and helping get a little bit bit of clarity on your subject matter. So thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Lynn Novick 1:11:48
Thank you, Alex. It was a great conversation.

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Watch: Robert Rodriguez’s The Director’s Chair (Film School)

Robert Rodriguez is an indie filmmaking legend. His book Rebel without a Crew: Or How a 23-Year-Old Filmmaker With $7,000 Became a Hollywood Player is required reading for any filmmaker. From the mythical El Marachi to Sin City to Alita: Battle Angel Robert has done it all. He even owns his own network, El Rey.

If you are a filmmaker and watch El Rey you need to be watching Robert Rodriguez’s amazing show The Director’s Chair. The Director’s Chair is an hour-long series by Robert Rodriguez featuring the industry’s most notable directors as they engage in a revealing and unexpected exchange about the world of filmmaking. The series provides a forum for two directors to go one on one, offering viewers access inside the minds of some of Hollywood’s most iconic filmmakers.

I’ve gathered most of the episodes available on-line. Each episode is like a semester of film school. Robert interviews directors like Quentin Tarantino, John Carpenter, Sly Stallone, Francis Ford Coppola, Guillermo Del Toro, Robert Zemeckis. George Miller and Michael Mann.

Get ready to have your mind blown! Enjoy.


The Director’s Chair – Episode 01 – John Carpenter

The Director’s Chair – Episode 02 – Guillermo Del Toro

The Director’s Chair – Episode 03 – Quentin Tarantino

 

The Director’s Chair – Episode 05 – Francis Ford Coppola

The Director’s Chair – Episode 06 – Luis Valdez

The Director’s Chair – Episode 07 – Robert Zemeckis

The Director’s Chair – Episode 08 – Michael Mann

The Director’s Chair – Episode 09 – George Miller

The Director’s Chair – Episode 10 – Sylvester Stallone

The Legacy of Quentin Tarantino’s Death Proof

Only a handful of directors knows how just to catch the attention of people like Quentin Tarantino. No doubt, he is good at doing things right. Considered as an exploitation film that stroked the sensibilities of genre nerds, the theatrical release of the double-feature throwback experiment is seen to both confuse and alienate the general moviegoing public at the same time.

Quentin Tarantino and Robert Rodriguez’s Grindhouse was released on April 6, 2007. The directors made an intentional affectation that got many unsuspecting patrons unhappy. The saw the nicks and scratches in the film as damaging. As a result, the confidence of the filmmaking duo began to wane when disappointments from general disinterest and the resulting box office came filing in.

While some may consider the gritty, 70s-style exploitation flick to be one of Tarantino’s purest movies, there is a good number of viewers who are still wondering where his contribution was. When credits of “Planet Terror” – Rodriguez’s lead film – starts to roll, these were the people who pulled on their coats and obliviously left the theater all because they felt deceived.

Up to this very moment, the film –Death Proof – still carries along a raging debate with lots of disapprovals from the viewing public. Even as a major part of the filmmaker’s broader legacy which was meant to serve as a standalone entertainment, the film generally appears to be a far more contentious piece.

While some may find it hard to gauge the lasting effect of the movie, a good number of fans – both the obsessive and casual ones – consider the 2007 American exploitation film as the worst effort of the director by a wide margin.

You can read all of Quentin Tarantino’s Screenplays here.

Death Proof: The Film

Under the collective title “Grindhouse,” the film – Death Proof – was theatrically released as part of a double feature with Planet Terror which was directed by Robert Rodriguez. Basically, it was aimed at recreating the experience of viewing the double features of exploitation film in a grindhouse theater. Though released as part of a double feature in the US, the film got a separate release outside the shores of its home country.

Quentin Tarantino both wrote and directed the film which stars Zoe Bell, Mary Elizabeth, Tracie Thoms, Sydney Poitier, Rose McGowan, Jordan Ladd, Vanessa Ferlito, Rosario Dawson, and Kurt Russell. In the film, Zoe Bell played herself as stuntwoman while Kurt Russell starred as the stuntman. The film pays homage to the muscle car, exploitation, and slasher films of the 1970s. During the 2007 Cannes Film Festival, Death proof was seen to be in the main competition for the Palme d’Or.

Death Proof: Behind the Scenes

Quentin Tarantino was inspired by the way stunt cars were “death-proof” by stuntmen so their drivers could be able to survive horrific collisions and high-speed crashes. It was this fascination that led to the production of the creation of a slasher film that features an upset stuntman with a “death-proof” car which he uses to stalk and kill sexy women.

Apart from women-in-prison films, Tarantino was looking to do a more rigid film. That was when he came up with the idea of using the structure of a slasher film to create something strict that people will love. According to Robert Rodriguez who helped title the movie, the film was simple and straightforward.

In Tarantino’s earlier film – Kill Bill– he had featured stuntwoman Zoe Bell as a stunt double for Uma Thurman and was stunned by her performance. Initially, he thought her role to be a cameo one but it later turned out to be her first on-screen acting. Zoe Bell on her part never understood the enormousness of her role until her name was featured on the film posters opposite other characters like Rose McGowan, Rosario Dawson, and Kurt Russell.

Based on the stuntwoman herself, Bell was selected to play the character, Zoe. In order to make the film look more like the typical 1970 movies shown in grindhouse theaters, the filmmakers sought to employ various unconventional techniques to reflect the style. One way they could do this was to intentionally damage the film. Throughout the feature, the film looked it was in bad shape. This is evident in the hilarious switch in title when the title ‘Quentin Tarantino’s Thunderbolt’ was abruptly replaced by a title card with an inexpertly emblazoned inscription – ‘Death Proof’ – across the screen.

The leading female role was written by Tarantino himself. Basically, he sought to create a kind of a loving homage cinematic sub-culture that many find difficult to comprehend. Viewers who are not used to the “grindhouse” cinema phenomena found it difficult to understand how the film was set out. Both in its look and feel, the film went out of its way to imitate the style of exploitation cinema that was popular in the late 60’s and 70’s.

It would appear that a vast majority of mainstream audiences didn’t find the film at all amusing. This alone led to the major criticisms leveled at it. In the first place, the film is not meant to be taken very seriously. Rather, it was purposed to be a pastiche or a parody of the class of movies a greater percentage of viewers wouldn’t want to see. But in terms of content, theme, and plot, it tends to be highly controversial and little in the way of conventional film logic.

The original idea was to pastiche two films and relay them at drive-in movie theaters as a double feature. As they move from state to state, theater owners will just have to take up the role of the filmmakers to re-cut and re-edit both films. This is the explanation for the appearance of a severely depreciating film stock, the switch between black and white and color, the sloppy editing and the purposeful mistakes in continuity.

Death Proof: The Critics

In a bid to appeal to the obsessive-type movie aficionado who are capable of appreciating the joke and getting the references, the filmmakers try to create a focused adoption of shoddy film-making which is in no wise sloppy as some may see it. To this end, it becomes quite difficult to see what people may be criticizing. A greater number of people would be reluctant to consider sevral semi-unclear movies that influenced the film as they will not actually expect it to keep them enthralled and entertained.

While the rest of Tarantino’s works have received wide praise, Proof’s merits have suffered derisive sarcasm. During a roundtable interview with a Hollywood reporter in 2012, Tarantino was quick to state that he felt the film stains his credit thereby regarding as the lowest point of quality that can be accepted from him.

However, come to look at it, the film seems to contain certain features that can rarely be found in any of his works. Tarantino’s film is such a personal work that’s got his fetishes, self-indulgence, influences, and interests at work. No doubt, everything here including the heavy flaws contributes immensely to the body of work displayed in the film.

Obviously, the movie is the palpable result of the most exciting auteur in cinema. It can be said to be a film writ in his largest, loudest letters. While some critics may see Death Proof as a remake of some cheapie slasher exploitation flicks, others can freely say it is the ecstatic fantasy daydream of the maker after night binging on girl gang.

Apart from Tarantino, there would only be a few people that admire the exploitation in the film. As a matter of fact, most of the features in Death Proof were no classics. Referencing to “vanishing point” is just unheard of. An average moviegoer must have never come across such things as “SwitchBlade Sisters.” No doubt, the movie is unbearably talky.

As part of the pastiche, Tarantino and his crew deliberately insert continuous dialogue that makes it sound chit-chatty with endless gabbing. Those who accustomed with this will find it difficult to understand that the action was deliberate. This was basically done to conserve the budgetary production of the film and at the same time, reference the downside to genuine seventies Grindhouse flick.

Death Proof: The Raves

Outside the meaningless girl talk and the ponderous lulls that can even be forborne, there are still some interesting features in the movie that cannot be overlooked. As a matter of fact, it is hard to deny that the vehicle stunts exhibited in the film are impressive. No doubt, Sally Menke did a beautiful job there! One absolute shocker that cannot be by-passed is the spectacular crash. This remarkable moment alone requires both a ‘pause and replay’ action.

The Jackie Chan factor was fully observed here when Zoe Bell heightened the tension with a sense of actual danger while performing her own stunts. Along with an admirably old-school precision, the climactic cat-and-mouse car chase proved very pristine. As an actress and stuntwoman, Zoe Bell never found the role of playing herself any challenging. Thanks to a sympathetic advantage, she found so easy to showcase her bubbly personality.

Also, the remaining casting is ideal. At first ominous and then pathetic, the renascent Kurt Russell showcases his fatherly charm and charisma into something extra ordinary. He deftly navigates through his role with tonal hairpin turns that are only typical with him. Even Mickey Rourke would have found this role to be quite challenging to handle. No doubt, the twisted ex-stuntman Mike did a great job getting off on chasing pretty women off the road.

Tarantino seeks to upgrade the Mike to the status of a near-immortal by making him literally untouchable especially when he’s in that death-proof car of his. In fact, Stuntman Mike was so elevated that he could not be killed by anyone except in the hands of another stuntman. But in this scenario, there was a stuntwoman.

In a bid to evoke the typical nature of the film’s location – Austin, Death Proof features a soundtrack packed with southern-flavored obscurities which are also part of the director’s favorite. Long before joining the industry, Tarantino has been working as a musical ‘curator.’ So, he knows just how to bring his least-gimmicky and most consistently listenable tune selections into the mix. Just so you know, the director wrote all the song titles used in the movie. As a huge part of all of his films, Quentin Tarantino was able to get his personal 45 collections into the jukebox in the Texas Chili Parlor.

Tarantino is famous for monkeying with his movies’ timeline. But unlike his other movies, Death Proof is the only film that runs in chronological order. Here, he had no choice but to skip the trickery features such as the flashbacks so as to perfectly get aligned with the down-low style of Death Proof. Littered with his personal touches, Tarantino does well to recycle “Death Proof” from thriller materials and stock horror.

Death Proof: Final Thoughts

Towards the end of the film, an amusing but unanticipated change-up occurred when the girls gained superiority over the nefarious Stuntman Mike. This alone is capable of bringing a soothing relief on the face of every aficionado praying for an imminent escape for the girls. No doubt, the girls in tight t-shirts, the other characters, the music, and the colorful iconography added to constructive nature of the movie. All these made it look like a joyous, darkly comic romp.

Apart from attempting to turn its audience on to a whole new world of cult Japanese cinema, Death Proof fully demonstrates to its audience the great use of movement, color, texture, and tone employed by the filmmaker. Nevertheless, the film is meant as a piece of entertainment. The final scene of the movie was shot near the Neverland Ranch, at the entrance to Midland School just on Figueroa Mountain Road.

Sponsored by: Special.tv – Stream Independent 

What is the French New Wave? – Definition and Examples

French New Wave, which is also known as French Nouvelle Vague, can be considered as one of the most influential film movements that took place in the history of cinema. The ripples created by this cinematic movement can even be felt today. A group of critics, who wrote for a French film journal called Cahiers du Cinema, created the film movement.

It began as a movement against the traditional path that French Cinema followed, which was more like literature. The French New Wave had the potential to bring a radical change to French cinema.

Few of the leading French movie directors supported the French New Wave at its inception. They include Jacques Demy, Agnes Varda, Alain Resnais, Louis Malle, Jacques Rivette, Eric Rohmer, Claude Chabrol, Jean-Luc Godard, and Francois Truffaut.

These directors have produced hundreds of movies to the French cinema industry and their involvement created a tremendous impact on the success of French New Wave. As a result, many other French directors were influenced by it, which created an ideal platform to deploy the radical change that the French cinema industry required.

How did the French New Wave movement originate?

The manifesto of Alexandre Astuc, The Birth of a New Avant-Garde: The Camera-Stylo can be considered as the starting point of the French New Wave movement. This event took place in 1948. This manifesto outlined several ideas that were explained by Cahiers du cinema and François Truffaut at a later stage.

They argued that the French cinema was similar to the literature, which expresses the same ideas that are depicted in novels and paintings. In other words, the artists at that time used movies to voice their thoughts. Some of the leading film producers, whose names are mentioned above, wanted to change it and this is the birth of the radical movement in the history of French cinema.

Morris Engel, who was an American film director, also contributed a lot towards the French New Wave. He produced a movie called Little Fugitive back in 1953 as he was impressed with the concept of French New Wave. This film clearly shows how the cinema industry in France got International support to carry forward the much-needed move. The French movie producers still appreciate the contribution of Morris Engel.

During the French New Wave movements, particular attention was paid towards the theory called auteur theory. As per auteur theory, the director of a movie is also the producer of it.

Therefore, the directors took the necessary measures to add a personal signature to the film. The directors who lived in France at that time praised the films produced by Jean Vigo and Jean Renoir because they were pioneer figures who fought against this theory.

They were able to create a few memorable films with the help of talented scriptwriters. The participation of scriptwriters helped them to stay away from adding their personal opinions and views into the movies that they created.

Jean Rouch can also be considered as a prominent figure in the French New Wave. The first new wave feature came out at this point. It was delivered along with the movie Le Beau Serge by Chabrol. The trend continued for a few more years as well, where few other movies such as Godard, The 400 Blows, and Truffaut came out with similar features.

SHORTCODE - SHORTS

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These movies became popular in international film industries in an unexpected manner. In fact, it received both financial as well as critical success. This made the entire world talk about the French New Wave. As a result, a perfect platform was created for the movement to flourish. The characters who took part in the movies that were produced during the radical change were not labeled as protagonists. This created a positive impression on their minds as well.

The auteurs also played a tremendous role during the French New Wave movement. That’s because they received excellent support from the youth audiences. Most of the directors who helped the French New Wave were born during the 1930s. On the other hand, a large percentage of them spend their childhood in Paris.

As a result, they have a clear understanding of how people in Paris experience their life. All-night parties, urban professional life, and concentration in fashion were hugely popular among youth who lived in Paris. These skills assisted the directors to support the movement with radical inputs.

The French New Wave was roughly famous between 1958 and 1964. The movement came to an end by 1973. Even though it was finished at that time, the influencing effects existed for several decades.

SHORTCODE - SHORTS

Want to watch more short films by legendary filmmakers?

Our collection has short films by Martin Scorsese, Quentin Tarantino, the Coen Brothers, Chris Nolan, Tim Burton, Steven Spielberg & more.

The international popularity of French New Wave

As mentioned earlier, many other countries in the world were aware of the French New Wave during the 1950s and 1960s. It created an impact on the International movie industry as well. The big radical change introduced by the French New Wave played a tremendous role in the fact mentioned above.

In fact, the French New Wave was powered up by the social and cultural change that came out after World War II. During this time, some lateral movements also existed in the world. The Free Cinema movement existed in Britain during the 1950s, and the French New Wave even influenced it.

The neighboring countries of France had some like-minded movie producers. They took the initiative to implement the radical change introduced by French New Wave in their countries as well. Most of these young directors were Communist-controlled individuals. As a result, they had the potential to create a tremendous impact on society.

Ivan Passer, Vera Chytilova, and Milos Forman are some of the leading movie producers who lived in Czechoslovakia at that time and took necessary measures to promote French New Wave and its changes to the International film industries. Likewise, few other producers from Poland such as Jerzy Skolimowski and Roman Polanski also contributed towards the global popularity of the movement. Even though these producers wanted to implement the change proposed by the French New Wave, they did not have the required assistance.

As a result, they chose non-professional actors and continued with shooting on location. The French New Wave was popular in Italy as well. Young producers such as Marco Bellocchio and Bernardo Bertolucci were inspired by the radical changes that were introduced by this movement in France. As a result, they promoted those changes within Italy.

French New Wave was not only popular in European countries. It also became a popular film movement in Brazil and Japan. Producers such as Glauber Rocha and Nagisa Oshima made movies devoted to the New Wave as a result of it; this helped them to take international social conventions to a whole new level.

The popularity of the French New Wave in the United States is notable as well. The USA was known as the heartland of commercial cinema. The film industry in the USA had its very own movement, which was led by a filmmaker named John Cassavetes. He gave life to some interesting movies such as Faces in 1968 and Shadows in 1958, which created a tremendous impact on the New Wave movement.

The New Wave movement initiated by John Cassavetes and the French New Wave movement had similarities among them. That must be because John Cassavetes was researching a lot about the French new wave at that time. He must have got some inputs from the French New Wave, which was hugely popular at that moment in time. Therefore, the French New Wave has created an impact on the American movie industry as well.

How the French New Wave Changed Film History Forever

French New Wave took place 50 years back. Now you must be wondering why we should pay our attention towards it. As you can see, the French New Wave has been able to bring some revolutionary changes to the movie industry in France.

Also, it created a tremendous impact on the film industries that existed in many other countries. The result generated by this movement was not only restricted to Europe. It became famous around the world as well and its concepts influenced a lot of directors. These ideas have created the layout for the popularity of alternative cinema, which exist in today’s world.

Without French New Movement, there won’t be Bertolucci, Oshima, and Wenders. On the other hand, advertising, fashion, and music would be done without any major point of reference.

Therefore, the French New Wave was capable of taking the world to a whole new level. It can also be considered as the most revolutionary movement that took place in the movie industry during the 20th Century. Without the New Wave, no film would be open. You would not even like the movies that you can see out there. Therefore, even future generations would appreciate the commitment of the founders of the French New Wave and the influence they created.

Top 20 Best French New Wave Films

Alex Ferrari 0:09
I'd like to welcome show Richard neubert. How you doing my friend?

Richard Neupert 0:13
doing just fine. Thank you.

Alex Ferrari 0:15
I appreciate you being on the show. You know, I've never had an educator, come on the show to talk about a film movement before. And generally speaking, isn't that something I've done? But the reason why I wanted to bring you on was I wanted to talk about all things French New Wave. And I know a lot of people listening Oh, my God, are we really gonna sit here and talk about the French New Wave? We are. But the reason I wanted to bring you is because I wanted to show filmmakers today. What these Renegade filmmakers were doing back then, and how what they were doing can help us today in our new kind of world that we live in, which is these micro budget, low budget, running gun kind of filmmaking, which we now have the ability to do at a much more affordable rate than they did back then. And they were still doing it back then. So before we get started, can you explain to everybody who's never heard of this, what exactly is the French New Wave movement?

Richard Neupert 1:13
The French New Wave was an explosion that really had never happened before. Or since I don't think in motion pictures. A couple of people who were all under 30, which was kind of unusual at the time, ended up making their first motion pictures, they shot their first features, most of them between like 1958 1964. So what happens is parents has this just sort of a burst of new young energy on the screen. At a time when the average director had to be 50 or 60, and work their way up the system. You've suddenly had these people 30 years old, and other making movies, they made cheap movies for us. And some said they were a sexy new movies for really a new generation. And the reason it's called a wave is that between that but really 456 year period, 120 different people got to make their first feature film. And then some of them like john Luke go down and Claude Chabrol are making one or two a year. So it's just these hundreds of new movies are suddenly coming out at the same time out of Paris, and it made Paris once again sort of the center of the film universe, really. And there was so slow new technologies. Yeah, yeah, there was just

Alex Ferrari 2:21
nothing like this that had ever happened before. For people to have an understanding in the time period. filmmaking was very kind of textbook It was kind of like wide shot, close up, edited in a certain way was almost formulaic in a way.

Richard Neupert 2:36
And especially for your audience. I mean, john Luke ghadar, who's the last one still living of the bunch, and still making movies. he famously said, in the early 60s, thank God, I didn't get into the state film school, they turned me down. Otherwise, I would have learned to set my camera, everybody else sets it, I would have learned to edit like everybody else who shot reverse shots, I would have learned to light like everybody else with a whole bunch of three point lighting, lighting. And instead, he's I never learned those rules. I never had to follow those rules. So there was this real excitement that they were aware of the fact that they were working outside the system on the edge of the system. They were criticizing mainstream movies as critics first then started making movies. So it really was a brash new young generation very male, there a couple of women that was really just trying to take on the French establishment, and make movies that they just thought were appropriate for them. And they

Alex Ferrari 3:23
weren't really what you should do. And then they were basically they weren't film critics, basically, they decided, you know what, these guys don't know what they're doing, aren't gonna do it.

Richard Neupert 3:34
They learned in Sydney clubs. And this is one of these, I helped run a nonprofit art house here in Athens, Georgia. And one of the things that was essential at this era was they went to movies, they went to the cinema tech, they watched silent murder movies, they watched Howard Hawks, movies and Hitchcock movies, and they didn't want to replicate them, but they wanted to learn. So what's wrong when they actually started to think, Oh, I want to tell a new story in a new way. But how would Hitchcock treat this? How would Fritz Lang treat this? Oh, I think I have a long take on this. He was so they were also building film history. And they taught themselves film history and film aesthetics, rather than going to necessarily to be taught here are the most important movies and how to do things. So it was it was really a brash, exciting kind of movement. At a time when youth was really exploding. We also got to think about 1950s. This is a time when radio stations are starting to aim at certain segments of the audience. And there's really a whole new audience at the same same time in the teens and in their 20s we're looking for something new in music, something new in literature, even but especially something new in the movies that's going to be theirs, and it became the French New Wave.

Alex Ferrari 4:36
And since you brought him up, Hitchcock, you know, during during his early career, he wasn't really considered a serious filmmaker. He was kind of like a popcorn filmmaker of his time. Kind of like Spielberg was when Spielberg was coming out. They were like, he's not a CEO. He's just makes big movies that people like to go watch. He makes Popular Movies he doesn't make he doesn't make cinema he makes movies and ciuffo was the first serious cinematic director that gave Hitchcock all the credit that he deserved with that amazing interview that he did years ago, correct?

Richard Neupert 5:14
Yes, I hope we've seen the Kent Jones movie the imagery that just came out a couple of years ago, as well. Yeah. In fact, when Hitchcock in Truffaut just sat down and talked through his career in different ways. And actually Truffaut would introduce interviewed him in the 50s when he was really young. So this guy's like, 20 years old. truphone, he kind of hangs out and finds out Hitchcock's in France and goes asks and could it could be interviewing, um, true, false truphone these guys, they're the first ones to walk around with new little nagaraj tape, these little portable quarter inch tape recorders and would interview people like Hitchcock and, and they and usually they're used to being asked what's it like to be with Grace Kelly on seeing your Cary Grant. Instead, these guys are asking about his lighting choices. They're asking him about his vision of the world. So that early on tourism, they really want to take him seriously at a time. Other people said Hitchcock movies are like going to the amusement park, you know, they're just very well oiled machines. And these guys wanted to show no, there's a soul to them. So yeah, they really wanted to investigate means on sand. They used to famously say things like, oh, camera movements, or morale, or moral issues. So everything about lighting, everything about camerawork, they just kind of saw it almost as a religion. And I think a lot of independent film makers today need to get in touch with that sort of aspect of really just the sort of fetishizing of certain aspects of cinema. But anyway, they are they really brought a new attitude toward toward much of the cinema, Claude Chabrol and Eric Rohmer wrote the first book on the 1950s. On his career, like right up to 1955, they wrote a book that right then, so they were really celebrating certain certain filmmakers, and were inspired by them. But they didn't want to make Hitchcock like movies. They wanted to make personal films about their own lives.

Alex Ferrari 6:53
Now, what are some of the characteristics of a French New Wave film?

Richard Neupert 6:58
Typically, they're going to be set in contemporary time. These are not costume dramas, these are not Star Wars. They're not trying to science fiction. In fact, a couple of them, one of them famously said, you know, most of the movies about young couples today are made by 60 year old guys who don't remember what it's like to fall in love. So they wanted to tell stories about themselves young men and young women, and the problems they face. So they tended to be shot on location, kind of like the Italian Neo realist and stuff they shot in the streets. So some of their first films were like somebody say, oh, you're Your mother has a really nice apartment. Can we shoot there? I mean, they would shoot in friend's apartments, they would shoot in their favorite cafes, on the streets, etc. That's why in some of these movies like go two hours breathless, you see people sort of looking at the camera confused. They're just out on the street shoot without permits. So you shoot on location, use as few crew members as possible. And one of the things especially in a digital age, one of the things to think about is these people are starting to use cameras and new recording devices like the Nagara tape deck that had just come out in the late 50s, where one person can just sling a magnetic tape recorder around their shoulder and hold a microphone. And instead of having a sound truck or recording on 35 millimeter optical track, you know, you got one person is the sound department. They started using equipment, it was made for news gathering. So they use really lightweight 35 millimeter or 16 millimeter cameras. They were crystal synced up to a tape recorder. Nobody done this before. So people said it was unprofessional. Well, they said the same thing about Shaun Baker making tangerine on an iPhone. It's that same sort of notion that you use what equipment you can afford, and then making a story tell a story that's equivalent. They use everyday language. They didn't use fancy formal language, they had scripts that were they used to call for a plan of action script, I got an idea. Here's a couple of things we're going to shoot today. They weren't these carefully polished scripts because they weren't approved by some banker, they were approved by some producer. They go out and find their own cash and really be their own producer or find some really amazing young producer who says okay, I trust you guys. Here's $50,000 to make a movie.

Alex Ferrari 9:01
And when you in the scripts that they were using, were they were they kind of like a script meant more like outline, or they have some dialogue in it. How exactly did they lay these out?

Richard Neupert 9:12
depended from filmmaker to filmmaker and that's one of the great things about the new wave. They're all different. Right? So um, john Luke good AR might show up in the morning with some scraps of paper and hand it to his actors in breathless and things like that. And the actors were just like, what is this? It's like making a silent movie. We just learn our lines. He says, Don't worry about it. We're gonna shoot it silent. I'll have you dump it in later. And then others had really careful should Claude Chabrol when he's very carefully worked out scripts, at least a scene the scene. But a lot of times people didn't know where they're going by the end of the movie. They rewrite them as they went, the actors got to help decide things. And that's the other thing about it. They're not using big professional named actors they're using. They're using friends. They're finding actors who they like playing big parts in other commercial movies. And so they'll go up to somebody like clue Bria Lee who had played a couple big parts and they say, hey, look, I thought you were great. And that minor key part there. How would you like to be a mind movie I can only pay you 5000 bucks. But I you will be the lead and the person that decide do I want to make more money playing a minor character in a commercial film? Or do I want to try being the lead and then these became the new stars of the French New Wave. So they're going to make actresses and actors into French New Wave Stars by having them in movie after movie after movie on a Korean enough for for ghadar john Moreau was making a decent living and all of a sudden Truffaut and Louie Ma and these guys make her have that first lady of French cinema. So they they're, they're making their own generation of actors, they're telling them don't come in with your usual makeup on. And they also got rid of some of the Union positions, they weren't real popular with the unions and the main because they would say I would say we don't need to designer, they're just gonna bring their own clothes, we don't need a makeup person, they're going to look like somebody does when they just had sex all night and they get up in the morning, they shouldn't look like they've been made up by somebody professional. So so they're getting rid of a bunch of those things. They want it to look natural. So the dialogue tended to be spontaneous. Sometimes a lot of jargon and contemporary lingo of music was usually Jazzy, something that kind of fit the loose structure of these movies. They didn't follow all the editing rhythms. So if you're using jump cuts and mismatches, you don't want classical music, fitting it you want jazz and something that's that's kind of jarring. So they really put together a sort of casual look, and a different kind of story with new actors. And they really built their own varied styles. Everybody's bills looked a little different, but they were all they were all fun, lively, and felt like something that was made today in the world they live in.

Alex Ferrari 11:33
And he I mean, going back and watching those films, they, they they seem still even contemporary today. The style that they were doing, they were doing, the kind of editing they were doing back then. And even the camera work instinct that they were doing is it's still fresher than a lot of this stuff I see today.

Richard Neupert 11:51
Let me give you an example. There's this guy who shot Oops, sorry. There's this guy, Jacques rosebay, who makes a Jew Philippine. And they were shooting on the beach, and they couldn't get the tripod to stay in the sand. So he had the camera operator, stand up on a chair behind him and put the 35 millimeter camera on his head, and the director became the tripod. For another scene they were doing in a small apartment, he wanted the camera to pull back in, they're like, well, we don't really have anything. So they had somebody, they put the camera operator on like a kitchen chair up close to the character, and they had a guy in the corner, pull the rug back so that you got this slow camera move with it pulls back. It's just the guy pulling the rug underneath the chair that the camera operator sitting on. So yeah, you do that kind of stuff. They regularly Truffaut especially regularly liked to use cars, where he would like they would just turn the car off and use it as a dolly. And you'd have guys just sort of put the camera up here and sit on the hood. And then you've just pushed the car down the street. So you get traveling shots and tracking shots and things that were cheap. You use one of the one of the cars by one of the guys on the crew. You didn't really tracks you do brains. You just shot were you good.

Alex Ferrari 12:57
And you used whatever you had at the time that you have it exactly. There's a real famous

Richard Neupert 13:02
shot in the 400 blows by Truffaut, we've got this high angle shot of the kids walking down the street. And Truffaut just like went up to see said you know, we did a high angle shot from up there. So they went up and they actually knocked on doors. And they found somebody who's they said can we can we prop our tripod out your window. And there's this great shot of them like leaning out the window on somebody's Paris apartment shooting down to the street. So yeah, they would just do all kinds of, you know, impromptu thing, you didn't have to pay anybody to do that. They didn't buy a crane, he just Well, if I just start with a high angle shot from a window, and then it come down and shoot from the street. It's almost like a crane shot, you go from here to here, I'll cut it down and you just you just forget the camera movement. So yeah, they're editing their shooting in ways that they're really trying to, you know, have jarring new effects for what they saw as a sort of new era of post war. European culture.

Alex Ferrari 13:49
So the rule so obviously these these filmmakers were rule breakers, let's go over so everybody understands exactly what's going on. What are some of the rules that they change it? We've kind of glossed over them, but specifically, what are some of the rules that they they broke? Which were hard hardcore rules, like engraved in cement? Or on on on, on? On? Yeah, and submit? Yeah,

Richard Neupert 14:13
well, the man okay. Imagine a scene for your, for your artist. Imagine a scene where a young man young woman, they're not quite sure if they're a couple yet or not, and having a conversation, classical Hollywood or even commercial French cinema, you got an establishing shot. She's in one side of the room, he's on the other side of the room, and an establishing shot, then you're gonna go in for a shot reverse shot, she says, boy, you know, I didn't expect you to show up today. Cut to him on a different thing. But you shoot at evolver shots together, then you shoot all his shots together and you edit to back together, we shot reverse shots, the new wave is gonna do all that maybe in one or two takes and they might just start a start on one character suddenly discover the other person's actually in the room, pull back a little bit to show them. So you'd have just the cameras almost like a documentary filmmaker or a news camera operator, you're trying to sort of capture the movement. So there was a sense of, they'd sought as often as an honesty. They just felt like many of these rules The 180 degree line and eyeline matching, and the sort of editing, continuity editing rules were just sort of made up to, you know, make everything the same. So the each would try to think about interesting ways to put the camera in different places. Same thing with sound, they shot a lot silent, because they figured, well, you know, we're gonna have our characters having an argument in this tiny little French elevator, the noise, it's not how we're going to get the sound in there, we'll just help them, get them in the camera crunched in there. And then later on, we'll delve into the sound. So some things where they use six, sound and live sound out in the streets, other things they would debate in afterwards. So they're not restricted by the rules of what's professional. And some of the critics at the time said that these are unprofessional films. I can't believe this is winning a Film Festival Award when kludge roll, it's got people driving down the shoulder, Lisa in Paris, having a conversation with the top down in a sports car. And you can tell the voices weren't really recorded, then it becomes one of the top movies the cousin list becomes one of the biggest movies in Europe that summer. And a lot of the professionals are saying he's breaking these rules, the sound quality was uneven, you could tell it was miked in a studio, not on the streets. The people go into it didn't care. It was lively. And it was fun. And again, they were sexy. They had a lot of movies about you know, young couples in bed at a time when American cinema is very restrictive. And you got to Doris Day rock that's and you know, kind of comedies, some of these things, Jules and Jim with the love triangle, the Catholic Church is going to condemn it. So they were seen, as you know, not just Rule Breakers in terms of where you put the camera and how long a tape is, they are also in terms of what your content is.

Alex Ferrari 16:31
So the and these were essentially low budget films. These were not Yeah, what what were the with? What were the budgets of some of these films?

Richard Neupert 16:40
Typically $50,000 to $100,000, kind of that range with sounds like you know, okay, but the average French film was about a half a million dollars, or 300, or 400,000. So there made it a lower budget. But here's the deal, if you want to, it's not just young writers, and actors and directors, it was also a new generation of producers. So if you're gonna make a $400,000 movie, for example, in France, it's kind of risky. So what they started to do was decide, hey, somebody say I got $100,000, I'm going to give it to these two people I met, they'll each make a $50,000 movie, if either one of them makes some money, I'm doing better off than putting all of it into one $400,000 movie, and then they start to win these awards. So again, Khaled Chabrol, clincher bro, his grandmother died, left him like $65,000, what's he do with it, instead of buying an apartment or doing whatever a traditional bourgeois person would do, or investing it? He buys he starts a film production company, and he starts making his own his own first film, he had a drawer full of scripts, like a lot of people should. So he started shooting a movie, but he only uses part of it because he gets the state grant to cover part of the production money. And then he finds a producer to put in a third of the money to so he's kind of CO producing it with someone else. The French government's giving him a basically a low interest loan. So then he takes some of that movie money he didn't use, and he lends it to a friend to start making his first feature film. So he takes a $65,000 movie money, makes it into handsome Sarah boo Sarah, his first film, it wins a top prize at a film festival starts to make money, he starts to shoot his second film the cousins. Within three months, he had two movies open in Paris, France, and they both were hits. So they're shooting fast. They're shooting furiously. And at the same time, he's got two friends who are now making their first feature films. So they helped each other out. They even lent each other's you know, they would say, Oh, my camera operator is really good. I'm just finishing up, why don't you use him. So you had the same cinematographers bringing to the shoot with no artificial light, or on location with not much of a shooting script, who were spontaneous. Someone came out of documentary and news photography and got into it. So you got a new generation of cinematographers, too. So it's very low budget, shoot fast. Use outside money, whenever you can get rid of any official union people, they would make appeals, can we please shoot this film, they had to get approval from the National cinema board to get rid of positions. So they're doing everything on every different level to really make movies in a different way. And I think in a digital era, it's really you know, everybody can make a movie today. You can upload it to YouTube, obviously, in other places, but if you want to get it distributed, and really seen out there, you also have to find daring producers and distributors, who will pick them up.

Alex Ferrari 19:14
Now speaking of distributors, how would these films distributed because I'm assuming well, distributors today are not very open minded nor forward thinking. So I could only imagine what distributors in Europe were in the 1950s. How, like, I didn't want the 400 blows shows up. I was not gonna like you know, breathless, I was gonna work.

Richard Neupert 19:37
Yeah, so what typically what's what happened was like the foreigner blows, it won a top prize at the con Film Festival. So it's kind of like a Sundance when he didn't have a distributor. Um, he actually made this move for like, $55,000 they make it he gets accepted at the con Film Festival, partly because he's a really famous critic already. But he gets accepted there. He wins the top prize. He, the North American rights alone, Canada and United States was around $100,000 for a $50,000 movie. So he's doubled his money before showing the movie theater anywhere and then you start to get distributors competing for it. That leads to other people getting excited about young films, etc. So Claude Chabrol has already gotten a distributor, Eric Rohmer makes his first film, nobody wants to distribute it. But then he starts to go to art film circuits. So you can do it a number of different ways. France has this sort of circuit of art films at the time that you can just basically for wallet, but a lot of them get picked up because of the film festival wins. And then a new generation distributors comes along. A bunch of these things are distributed in the United States by new young distributors who are distributing Fellini movies, Ingmar Bergman movies, things that are outside the normal circuit to an art film circuit here. And they're on they're out there looking for new racy stuff. So they're distributed not by 20th Century Fox or Warner Brothers, but they're being distributed by really a whole new generation of European art film distributors around and but they have a bunch of different contracts. Agnes Varda who we lost this last year. And this Varda was a really good example with Clio from five to seven. She's going to get make this movie because her husband shocking to me had just made a movie and that distributors, or that producer said, Hey, you know, what, what's your wife doing? You know, and she's like, well, I've got this movies, he approved her really cheap scripts, she shoots Cleo, he's gonna bundle it with other new wave films. So it got distributed in the United States with he sold like a ghadar a shock to me, and then Agnes Varda film were all rolled together that that an American distributor would then buy. So they're kind of coming as a cluster. They're good friends who help each other out. And that also makes it a wave because there's not just one or two people individually getting picked up. They're all kind of in a in a package. So Truffaut, Godard, Eric Rohmer, Claude Chabrol, Agnes BARDA, Jacques de me, there's a whole bunch of people like that, who are now on the cover of newspapers and magazines, Esquire, there's a great new way of addition of Esquire that's got like caricatures of all the a lot of the new wave actors and directors on its cover saying, Paris is is the place to be right now in the movie world. So they were just these became like, icons of a new generation. They were like, you know, they're like jazz stars or something.

Alex Ferrari 22:22
And it was also a time when there wasn't as much as much competition for our eyeballs as there is to in today's world. So you could make a bigger splash back then, because there just wasn't a whole lot else. Not to take anything away. Neither take anything away from them.

Richard Neupert 22:38
But yeah, no, it's very, no, it's very true. I mean, what was on TV? I mean, French television had like one or two channels at that point. We just had the standard, Mr. Ed kind of stuff. And this was this was, yeah, just very jarring. And very different. So yeah, you're not competing. They're not competing with MGM musicals. They're not they don't want to compete with that stuff. They're not trying to make Star Wars on the cheap. what they're trying to do is have a whole new kind of product that somehow connects with their generation. Do you think it's sort of because?

Alex Ferrari 23:11
Right, and do you think that they're the French New Wave had a direct correlation with the renaissance of the 70s? Especially here in the states where you have melius? You've got Coppola. You've got Scorsese. You've got Spielberg. And you've got you know, there's so many others. dipalma

Richard Neupert 23:29
from Cassavetes on Yes. Yeah. And back. I mean, Truffaut was trying to do Bonnie and Clyde. They were coming over to talk to you about Lou, how about Joe and Joe could are people were asking him to make movies in America, and he would sometimes take the upfront money and then not do anything. Um, it was a bit of a scam sometimes. But But yes, they're really strongly doing that. That that a lot of people being influenced by them. I think the graduate you know, one, one of the biggest movies, I've been 60s, it's really, the first half is kind of a new wave movie like Benjamin, what are you doing? I'm just floating, right? He has no plan. He has no thing. It's about this youth. He doesn't want to play the game. So I think a lot of these things, Mike Nichols, a lot of people were strongly influenced by the new wave in the 60s, certainly by the 70s. Yes, they're looking back to this to this kind of era as a golden moment in, in World Cinema to a certain extent. So yeah, I think it strongly influences things. What is a script? Who gets to make a movie who gets to produce a movie who should be an actress, and by the 70s, we get a lot of those anti heroes and even women actresses that are not classically beautiful in the survey who become really hot stuff in certain movies. So a lot of that comes from the French New Wave kind of impulse. It strongly affects American independent films of the 70s and on

Alex Ferrari 24:45
Now, can you talk a little bit about what the two specific sections one first about how they use the camera and such a special unique way when breaking the rules and then also the editing language because they literally changed editing and the editing language with multiple not one or two little things, but they added a bunch and same for the camera. So can you talk a little bit about how they how they influenced us?

Richard Neupert 25:10
Sure, the cinematographers typically are going to use very lightweight cameras. And again, they have the freedoms in some scenes to shoot silent. So they're gonna have the a lot of and this goes with editing. Sometimes you get a lot of montages of people running through the streets, the streets or the famous garrison. inventa are where they run through the loop and try to set a record of how quickly can you go through the loop Museum, that you should love that stuff silent. So the camera operators can be combated be really mobile getting into elevators, they're also the first ones that I know of who the camera operators start to use non conventional things, not just sitting on the hood of a car and being pushed down the street, but wheelchairs. I mean, that's another thing people make fun of them. They shot in wheelchairs, the camera operators. Well, By the mid 60s, every film school in America has wheelchairs, people say oh, well if they can do this stuff, so they're shooting in wheelchairs, they're shooting in ghadar. There's famous example. And Jacques to me does the same thing in one of his early movies and Lola, that they actually hide the camera operator inside of a postman's cart. So you've got this big cart and the cinematographer sits in there cuts a little hole to stick the lens out, and they get pushed down the street and they make a movie where nobody knows the film's been going is going on. So you get a casual interaction with people just wandering past and it feels natural because it is, but you also get a camera perspective, almost like Ozu standing up a little bit. You get a new perspectives and mobility. So mobility, camera mobility was huge, move the camera around, and then the editing would often try to take some of those long takes together. But they do other things. Gianluca dar famously use a lot of jump cuts, which is basically you take 1/32 shot, and then you snip pieces out. So it's like it's almost like a visual stuttering. Well, within a couple years, they're using it in beer commercials, right? I mean, it gets picked up for nonfiction purposes, commercial start to do some of these things as well. So yeah, having people repeat their actions. In the graduate, I'll just use it as another example, there's a scene in the graduate where Mrs. Robinson walks naked into a bedroom. And Ben turns his head three times with a quote of an Eisenstein movie from the 1920s. But the same kind of thing is going to happen in Truffaut and ghadar. And other places where the real time of how many times did someone turn their head if there's no way to say, so they're going to break up the sort of real time and space sometimes with editing, call attention to editing as manipulation, um, and also use that to help really set the rhythm in a way that maybe this script would in a more classical movie. So the scene the scene structure is usually a little different and cut from thing to thing is a little more jaggedy, and raggedy, the camerawork might look unprofessional, but keeps moving, but yeah, use editing but you just cut from one thing to another. And you don't worry so much about smooth transitions in the way that having a continuity person they didn't always have a what's called a script girl in the old days, a continuity person making sure that the glass of beer is half full, and every shot for the same scene and things like that. So a lot of times there are mismatches and there are so and that was kind of a seen as honesty, we're making movies here was important to the French New Wave.

Alex Ferrari 28:08
And then they also, I from my studying of it, a lot of times they were you normally would use editing to create tension in a scene, they would just use the camera as whip pans and, and just kind of see if there's two people in a room or something like that, that would just jump with the camera as opposed to normally that would be an edit where Hitchcock would obviously use it all the time, but they wouldn't.

Richard Neupert 28:33
Yeah, people just watch the first 10 minutes of breathless for example, you've got a shot of him. He says he's driving his car, boring scene, right? He's driving his car. And then you just you see him like talking to himself. But you look out the hood as if it's his point of view shot and suddenly there's like a british petroleum gas truck, then another car then something else. Well, in a normal movie, you would cut back to him, Milan, you're looking bored, then cut proc then cut to a car then cut. So he just took out those sort of interest interim shots. And he said a lot of times go down and say I edit my movies like a Dick Tracy comic book, like the whole notion you go from from image to image from panel to panel page to page. It wants to call attention the editing whereas Hollywood, you're supposed to hide your cuts, have dialogue or music cut over them. So it just seems logically like there's an impossible. And I literally imagined helicopter is there invisibly, taking shots or something he calls attention to the sound. Why not? Um, and and so it was really a modern, a very modern way of making movies that wasn't seamless. It was seen as again, amateurish in some ways. But it's not just some poor student movie. They usually had really good taste in what they're building and why. And again, I think they're still some of the most exciting movies out there.

Alex Ferrari 29:47
Yeah, I mean, that was the thing I was watching reasonably watching some again and you just sit there going, Oh my god, this is this is fresher than the stuff that's going on right now. And a lot of ways you know it, you know, I feel that I feel this Been multiple generations that have forgotten these films and forgot this movement? And because there might be a stigma because oh, that's what they teach you in film school. So it must not be cool. But and they're, and they're black and white. Oh my god, they must not have that's not good. That's like Citizen Kane. I'm like, No, and Citizen Kane has his own thing. Much, much better than Citizen Kane, in my opinion, as well. But I wanted to I wanted to talk about this on the show, because I think there is generations of filmmakers who don't understand that the what the rules that they broke back then, that it literally if I if I made a brand new French New Wave film right now in the exact same way, it would be fresher. And we could do it so much more such in with such ease today with the technology. I mean, it's insane.

Richard Neupert 30:51
No, it's true. And it's true. And I'll just give another good example, like Agnes Varda is clear from five to seven, she the whole movie for people on the scene, it is any script writer, I think it's a great, great model, you've got a woman who's who's waiting for a cancer test. So basically, she's killing time for about an hour and a half. And every scene is like every chapter has a chapter number. But it also has a timing on it things precise. It's got European time. So it's like 1543 to 1548. So so you're going to have these specific times. So it for every scene last exactly as many minutes as the title says it's going to last and yet within it. So it's got continuity, but in the middle, if there's going to be this discontinuity, so one point, she walks down the sidewalk, she's a pop singer, she's worried. And suddenly you just have all these images, some of them from previous parts of the film, you know, is she imagining all these things? Is this the narrator interposing them, but it's just this brilliant rhythm of all these stills still shots and moving shots and stuff, she just walks out of the cafe, a little frustrated down a street. So they break up really the whole notion of like, you know, what is time? Is it long and continuous? Is it all mental, subjective, and montage is? It's both? So yeah, they're really exploring time and space. And as Gianluca dhar said, where you start a shot and where you end the shot. That's the essence of cinema. They really thought about this stuff, and we're having fun with it at the same time.

Alex Ferrari 32:11
Now, what is camera stylo?

Richard Neupert 32:14
Ah, camera steelo. Yes, the low, the low. The low is like a pen in the 1940s. There's this other theorist. He's a critic, friend of Hungary Roseanne, and he wrote in some of the real leftist journals, even during the war, some of the illegal publications. But this Alexander a stroke wrote a famous article, it's really short whenever I show it to students, because they've heard about it's only like 12 paragraphs, but it's basically says he's calling for the camera as pin, the camera steelo that basically in the past, the great minds used a pen to write today, the great minds will use portable cameras to write. So basically saying, think like a novelist. Don't think like old filmmakers think you will write with your camera. So it was really a notion of sort of freeing up cinematic thought freeing up cinematic language Don't be bound by all the grammar rules you've learned. So it was really trying to say our whole generation, were going to think and express ourselves differently through cameras, and through the cinematic mode. So it really was a World War Two, and just after this new faith that every is disgusted with the war on previous generations, that basically if you're a creative individual, and you're 20 years old, your medium is not to write a novel, or write a play, it's to make a movie. So it really sent this new generation they love that idea. We are going to tell our stories with a camera out in the streets. So it's sort of motivated a lot of that. And Agnes Varda later on talked about she's, you know, she called herself somebody who's a singer, a character, she was a Sydney writer. And her She didn't say this film was seen a key it was seen a written. So there's this real sense of you know, we are a new generation, the film is a new language. And frankly, you know, we're going to be able to tell new stories because of the apparatus. So it's really just rethinking the power of the cinema, the function of a camera and a microphone, and all of that one thing but it this camera steelo became this idea of just like you compose a novel, you compose should compose a movie.

Alex Ferrari 34:16
And I feel that there's one director, contemporary director that kind of encompasses everything the French New Wave has to offer. And, and one of the reasons why his films are looked upon with such reverence reverence is Tarantino. You could look at you could look at scenes and I mean, I've you just you just catch the shots. And he's, he's famously unapologetic about stealing shots in stealing full concepts, and he's wonderful at what he does. He's a master, but you see scenes like in Kill Bill, Django Unchained, even once upon a time in Hollywood. They're just straight up shots from the French gave or inspired by the Frenchman even the chapter points at the beginning of his movies.

Richard Neupert 35:03
No, that's very true in fact that yeah, that you know, that Banda power productions Yeah, there's this this real, this reverence for ghadar and, and and a certain period of his life. No it's and I think what's important is the playfulness, a lot of these new wave films, people act like Oh, you're going to museum gotta watch this seriously? No, they're being silly they're being funny and Truffaut's shoot the piano player, you know, so he says, oh, if I'm not telling the truth, May my you know my mother dry and then you cut this a woman falling over. I mean, they're they were playful at the same time. And I think that aspect of Tarantino really owes a lot to it much less those tracking shots that go on and on and on. With, once upon a time I had students say, No, they just drive around and walk around. And you know, this would be a new wave guide say exactly, you know, that's the essence of cinema, how you cover somebody moving from point A to point B, that is cinema. much, but also that scene of when the Sharon Tate characters watching herself in the movie theater. That's a real New Wave senior right? Because there are a lot of movies, they go to movies a lot in the French New Wave, as well. So no, I think there are lots of Tarantino aspects that pick up on the new way pick up on art cinema from all over the place. And that's why I just think any independent filmmaker needs to know not just recent American independent cinema and be able to talk about their Dharma shows, etc. and Miranda, July kind of stuff, but they should also be able to talk about European alternatives. Early Polanski, and Polanski was inspired by the French New

Alex Ferrari 36:32
Wave do Cassavetes

Richard Neupert 36:36
in Warsaw saying, Wait a minute, Paris is really expensive if they can make a $50,000 movie there. Think what I can do here in Warsaw, you know, where everything's really cheap. So he's there, and they inspire people around the world of their generation and subsequent, but I think it's still is one of those things that the franchising, or is there a new wave on the horizon? I mean, it's become a mythical era that just will never be replicated. But it's been incredibly influential and important in lots of ways.

Alex Ferrari 37:00
And you were saying about them being playful. I'm not sure if they were the first I doubt they were. But they definitely brought it to the attention of breaking the fourth wall. You know, they weren't the first to break the fourth wall. But they

Richard Neupert 37:13
drew other people who had done it before, and usually in comedies, not in the middle of a chase scene. But certainly, I would say in in Pulp Fiction, she says, Don't be a square. You know, that's the kind of thing that a French New Wave character would do. Acknowledge the little dots or the little lines on the screen, acknowledge there's a there's something between the camera and the actors, there's an apparatus. That to me, is a real new way of kind of moment as well. Yeah, it's funny, it's silly, and it calls attention reminds us. We know we're what we're making a movie. We know you're watching a movie. And you know, it's just a movie. The French new way was always about that we're telling stories with cameras are steel. And just calling attention to that soundtrack would come and go the music would boom in and then just stop mid frame and stuff and just can remind you this is fun. We're at the movies and the movies can be fun and smart and challenging.

Alex Ferrari 38:04
Now what are the biggest lessons that today's filmmakers can learn from the the generation of the French New Wave?

Richard Neupert 38:12
One I think know your history so that you have a sense of where you come from, and you don't create those cliches. I'm also though I think make what is your movie. Now, a lot of times and I'm sure you've seen this with you know, filmmaker wannabes, and students who basically they each they have one or two filmmakers they know and they like like a Tarantino like a Wes Anderson. And they want to write scripts that just become like little shadow versions of instead you do what you want. So the new way of Claude Chabrol is going to tell him very personal stories that are about him and his life. He's going to make his first film, he goes back to where he spent time as a kid growing up during World War Two, and he uses friends from that, but he made back then, now they get to act in his movie, that's very different than go to our who's going to go out and try to find you know, hip new actors and actors to be actresses to be in his vision of a movie. Um, but they all look different, but they tell personal stories that to them matter in one way or another. So rather than replicating formulas, these are not movies where you can like, look at right, the midpoint and say, oh, here's the midpoint in the script. No, you don't have beats in the same way. They all are organic and personal. And I think that's really important that they pick topics that they can afford to make. They pick topics that are important to them. They use friends and others as positive influences on them. It's a group project, not one individuales notion. I think those things are really useful, but especially know your technology. What do you have access to? What can you do well with it, and what a rethink from it. How do you how do you say okay, how can I use this camera and not have it look like what everybody else has done with the same red camera? Can I do something different? So kind of thinking about the technology? That's really what they were fascinated with is sort of pushing it there. There's like we keep coming back to breathless, I guess because it's one of my favorites, but truth. But ghadar at one point told Google Paris cinematographer. This timer is like, you know, this film is just not fast enough for the scene you want to shoot here at night, we're gonna have to get some new film stock. And obviously, we don't have time to get new film stock. Let's shoot it now. And he says, I don't care. I want to hear it scream on the screen that you know, as the film feels like it's being overexposed or underexposed. That notion of pushing the film to do something never did before. That's some sort of new way of notion. And and with digital, it's a little different these days, certainly. But I think, yeah, rethinking digital cameras, and trying to rethink how the technology and the story you're telling, and your aesthetic choices all kind of come together to make something creative, a new, doesn't have to be revolutionary, but it should be new and interesting,

Alex Ferrari 40:40
and personal. And I think that's always the authentic and personal. It's always, even if it's an action or thriller, or something, if there is some sort of authenticity from the filmmaker inside. I think that's one thing that the film, the French New Wave directors have is each of their films has a little bit of their DNA in it without question.

Richard Neupert 40:59
And they knew the skills, they had skill sets. It's not like they were naive. They knew the skills, they knew they were breaking rules. It's not like they just grew up, but they you know, but yes, so their personal in that way too, that they say, Okay, I know how to do a shot reverse shot, I'm choosing not to so I'm going to do these alternatives. Same thing with storytelling, I'm not going to tell you all the psychological background on this character until maybe late in the film, or maybe not at all. So the scripts really left people guessing to like, Why is she with this guy? or Why is he just suddenly leaving her? I thought that was the one thing he wanted in his life. You don't answer all those questions. So the storytelling too, was something that left ambiguity and left openness in a way that genre films did not have that Europe. And I think early 60s films were very generic, very formulaic. And this stuff just seemed like it was coming out of you know, who knows where.

Alex Ferrari 41:47
Now, I'm gonna ask you the toughest question of them all. What are your three favorite film French New Wave films of all time?

Richard Neupert 41:55
Oh, gosh. I do think breathless I can watch it over and over and I teach it over and over. I'm too full. I gotta say, shoot, the piano player is done. His least pop one at the time. It's got a really raggedy kind of rhythm. It's got the best shootout in history. Talk about I mean, making no sense of spatially but it's emotional. Near the end. And Agnes Varda I think luminor at by Agnes Varda it's a beautiful color movie that is just about a young married couple happy married couple and he finds another woman on the side. And it's one of those lush uses of color at the era ever, ever. So I think Agnes bar does happiness for bunner cleona five, and it's very good to shoot the piano player, and and breathless are all very different movies. And I think any potential filmmaker can learn a lot from any of those.

Alex Ferrari 42:45
And where can people find your books on the subject if they want to dig a little deeper into the French New Wave and how they can that can help them today.

Richard Neupert 42:53
I do have the history of the French New Wave cinema. It's at Amazon and all over the place. It's one of the best selling Luckily, things. I also translated a book called The the French new ways the French New Wave by Michel Murray, which is much more concise thing about economics and things. But yeah, history of French New Wave is pretty easy to find out. Use bookstores as well don't want to just plug in Amazon. It's as well.

Alex Ferrari 43:18
Richard, thank you so much for coming on and talking shop about the French New Wave and how can it and how it can help filmmakers of today. rethink the way they're doing things and make maybe maybe create a new wave. I think we're due for a new a new wave there was that there was the dogma 95 there was the the mumble core movement. Yeah, yes, there was few many movements. I think we're do we're due for something new.

Richard Neupert 43:46
We are I think American independent cinema is great right now and it's getting better and better. Again. There is a new Renaissance, I hope Anyway, thank you. This was great. I'm talking about the new wave in a while. This is wonderful.

Alex Ferrari 43:57
Thank you, Richard.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

VIDEO ESSAY-RAOUL COUTARD

SPEAKER 1: The French New Wave for a brief moment ripped apart classical cinema and established their own language of cinema, but what fascinates me here today is the genesis of the French new wave and how Raoul Coutard cinematography plays a relatively unsung new brawl in the French New Wave’s look.

A quick new cap on what the French New Wave is, there were these four film critics who had an ambitious purpose in making film.

RICHARD BRODY: To do in cinema what (name 42) did in philosophy but in his view to do it better because of the distinctive ecstatic capacities of film.

SPEAKER 1:  These four cinifiles(54) love film and distained conventional cinema they stopped searching for films they liked and jumped right into making their own films with essentially no training whatsoever.

During their inception they usually film on location and with either no crew or equipment beyond one camera and one camera man.

Raoul Coutard’s background id fascinating he was a war photographer and this became essential for him to work with someone as impossible as John the running gun style is perfect for the theme of Breathless the first Godard film.

It was simple audaciously un done before and only as open of mind as Coutard had been on board, but see that’s why Raul Coutard seems more and more to be the only cinematographer that could have worked with these types.

Raul Coutard had no reputation before his first films with the new wave directors because otherwise like trained cinematographers he would have been caught up in conventions and feared his reputation being on the line as an unconventional method pervaded the scenes.

Raul Coutard styles is described as having no style he was all over the place and I mean that in the best of ways this made sense as Coutard had no come to the industry with any text book training in fact he came with no training at all except with still photography.

Just another aspect of Coutard’s perspective towards film making that meant that he must have had truly an open mind.

See Coutard would just give the actress dialogue as they went along from shot to shot. They would walk into a space and Coutard would just say put the camera over there but what about something as crazy as to insure that no passerby would look into the camera when filming Breathless .

They would hide the camera in a low postman’s cart and go push is along (3:13)right next to the camera hunched down inside the cart as well. So why does this matter why didn’t they just earn the money to film conventionally, because to them the conventional cinema time was far detached from French life at the time not only was there a goal to observe French life but to also interpret meaning from life in general.

What did it mean to be in love or to search one’s self for identity? What did it mean to be alive and how to fight the of nihilism. What is French cinema and what is American cinema. What does it mean to make films most importantly what it mean to truly go along in natural moments.

Raoul Coutard’s shots never lost the sense of natural lightning. Raoul Coutard never loss the sense of a hand held.

After years of revolution finally (4:23) and in the time still shoots his films like old times. After years of frustrations, the marginalized critics felt the disdain for conventional cinema revolutionized filmmaking with their unconventional cinema techniques forwarding a philosophical meditation on world views to the medium of films and doing a completely low budget.

All it took were open minds working on films pushing the medium further, who better than to be the hand that paint the picture than him. Who better to be the cinematographer for the French New Wave than Raoul Coutard.

THE RULES OF EDITING FRENCH & AMERICAN

After world war two Hollywood continue to make movies in the same way it had before the war although editors were now unionized they were viewed for the most part as highly skilled mechanics.

PAUL HIRSCH: There was a man names Owen Marks he edited Touch by Forrest, Casa Blanca, Treasure Sierra Madre, East of Eden and his films are immortal and the man is completely unknown and it is sort of symbolic of the way editors have been ignored in the literature about Hollywood.

SPEAKER 1: Editors worked on Cutters Row and were expected to conform to the established rules of editing.

CAROL LITTLETON: If we were to think about the films that were being made there were a certain film language that were very, very distinct certain kinds of coverage long shot two shot single, single there was almost a formulate way of presenting films. This film language was very strict and in editorial terms there were rules that one felt could not be broken.

DEDE ALLEN: A master shot had to come first and then if you had an overshot then over shoulder and you never went to the close up until you have done the whole dance coming from far to close.

CAROL LITTLETON: For instance if you are going to have a transition from one place to the next you will be down for dissolve.

The next thing you got to remember is the gentleman you meet at the cold cut is not as attractive as the one you meet at the milk department at food doors.(1:35)

PAUL HIRSCH: In the forties and fifties the audience would expect a character to drive up and show them getting out of the car he would walk up to the building and then he would open the door and then he would match cut the door opening on the other side and he would walk in and come over and sit down.

ANNE COATES: It just seem to me absolutely stupid you had to show somebody coming down stairs and all the way across the road and to the side I mean you knew they were coming from here and going to there, why couldn’t you just cut directly.

SPEAKER 2: In France a group of film critics turn directors also challenged the doctrine of invisible editing and launched a revolution among editors.

ANNE COATES: When I first saw the (2:23) I instantly loved it I loved the idea I loved the way they edited and thought I would like to cut like that.

JOE DANTE: You know Godard use jump cuts because why not there isn’t nothing interesting happening in these middle parts so let’s cut to the jump cut.

ANTHONY GIBBS: When I saw the betters I was Stuttgart(2:52) at Godard’s brutality

QUENTIN TARANTINO: What they brought to editing was a breaking of the rules whatever books that said this is how it had to be done they burn them.

MARTIN SCORSES: Actress are too hip for me I come from Lorie Simon Italian American  guy it is too beat, beat neck it’s like you know bulimia too cool I liked it I don’t know what the hell was happening.

RICHARD CHEW: You know when I first saw breathless in the sixties it was like wow I mean just in the first five minutes sequence and introducing John Paul Armandos character as a petit thief I mean every rule was violated in terms of how long to over shot the discontinuity of what was going on, even screen directions you know were mixed in and I thought either this guy doesn’t know what he was doing or he is so confident that he has the grammar film down that he is trying to show us a new way he used the material he has to tell the story.

RICHARD MARKS: There were some films that we had that really changed our perception of what filmmaking was and certainly it affected what editing was. I mean I think one of those films was certainly something like Bonnie & Clyde.

DEDE ALLEN: Some people say I broke those rues first I certainly did not, I mean the Russian broke those rules and the Germans broke those rules this was nothing new but it was new for Hollywood.

DYLAN TICHENOR: Several of those editors have had big impacts on me have influenced my thinking, Dede Allen certainly was the one that taught me that don’t be afraid to take the chance on doing something that doesn’t seem like it is going to work.

When Babe and Faye Donaway get to know each other they are standing on the street corner and she said I don’t believe you rob banks and he said yes I look at my gun and he pulls it out and hold it to her on the street corner and that could easily have been done with the tilt down to the gun the pan over to her hands fidgeting with the coke bottle up to her face, but it was done with her eyes looked from him down to the gun back to him.

It keeps you on edge there is this statement there is the danger there is the eroticism in not being able to fully get every moment because you are cutting off and you are not allowing moment to come to fruition.

RICHARD MARKS: Bonnie & Clyde was much more violent and basically the American likes violence much more than we do.

DEDE ALLEN: Well it was shot in so many wonderful ways this is the scene that Arthur intended be cut in this fashion, the fact that it was so beautifully executed right from the very first cut Jerry Greenburg was my assistant and on that last seen I was with Jerry and he did all the primary editing on that all I did was tighten it later.

RICHARD MARKS: Again one is not saying this is the beginning of the American any way because one is sure there was smaller films before that but this was the one like birth of a nation which suddenly an audio say wow.

Bonnie and Clyde paved the way for films like Easy Rider.

DON CAMBERN: So I had only one feature I was editing while they were travelling which was flowing in by the mile but it was great it was exciting it was totally different from anything I have been involved in these transitions that everybody remembers going in from one scene to the next where it flashed forward to the scene flashes back to the scene you are in.

Dennis didn’t want a straight cut I didn’t want dissolved so we kept throwing around so it is Dennis who scripted part of the idea why went and it came back yes, but let’s us do it three times we finally arrived at the length and each one is six screens and now we can use this whenever we want to and as it turned out it started to have a device and so we stopped doing that we are not going to do we are going to use in discretion places without giving anything away.

Everybody was stoned and they were shitty. I learned sooner on that I could not be stoned and edit while it was going on I thought it was grand and when I looked at it when I was straight I said this is awful and I had to throw it out and start all over.

This film is becoming an icon I am grateful that I had something to do with it because I had grown up in the thirties forties and fifties with movies as they were then. Finally we are going to run it for Columbia with Bill Jackie Chairman of the board it ended there was this long pause Bill finally stands up and he says I dint know what the fuck this picture means but I know we are going to make a fuck of a lot of money.

REAR WINDOW - FRENCH NEW WAVE 

It is quite difficult when we look at God as the early films to separate them out from the other new wave directors people like (45) they all looked as if they are very much of the group they really stands out amongst that crowd certainly from the mid sixties onwards was that he just retained that kind of ferocious interrogation of cinema of the functions of cinema and of how cinema interacts with the world.

So I think there is that combination of on one hand curiosity intellectual curiosity but also just a really sharp almost philosophical intelligence that was fuelling that interrogation. One of the things that is interesting about Godard is that his work is instantly recognizable.

He walks just a few seconds of a shot and there is something about the lighting the framing the way the person moves. There are very, very few film makers that have been able to achieve that degree of that kind of signature to their work.

Godard starts out as a critic as a show film maker in the nineteen fifties breaks into feature film making with A Bout De Souffle (Breathless) as a massive international hit and basically sets him up for the rest of his career and then that sort of a first flourishing work which is really in relations to Hollywood and fuelled by a kind a cine flick engagement with cinema history continues from late fifties to about 1965.

What is so interesting about the film is that you are immediately launched into this kind of weird and wonderful world a kind of Syfy adventure set in contemporary Paris it is playful but it is also deadly serious in its critic of the commodification of Paris so I think it combines that engagement with Hollywood genre but also a political critic of the nefarious affects of capitalism and it brings together those two things in an absolutely perfect way.

I think it is very powerful very playful and very poetic it is beautiful film and there is a shift with (3:27) in particular but then films which (3:31) where Godard’s work takes on a more a sociological dimension he is more interested in engaging with society with contemporary France with pressing issues around consumers than around capitalism and then that leads into the collaborative work that he conducts with the (3:56) group from 1968 to 1972.

From 1973 Godard moves out of Parish moved first to (name4:11) and then to Holand Switzerland and then during that period he is really interested in multimedia and that period which included two massive TV series runs to 1979 then he returns to European art cinema which (4:30) in 1980 and then there is a period.

There is a kind of cycle of films that is often thought of as a kind of the films of the sublime to do with beauty we are going to engaging again with the history of painting the history of music basically the history of kind of classical art and trying to recuperate that back into the history of cinema and those films they are kind of fuels by the question of how to make images. What constitute a poetic image in cinema that is both informed by but different from all these other (5:11).

The lesser half of the eighties are characterized by a couple of quite difficult philosophical films King Layer and (5:19). It is also the period where he begins to work extensively on (5:25) cinema so he is big video graphic films history project is going to really dominate his work really over the decade from the mid late eighties to the end of the nineteen nineties.

When he completed is (5:38) cinema there was a kind of sense that he had come to the end of a massive  project  I think may critics almost write him off as though you know that’s it  as he often does when people think he is he works himself into a dead end  he came out with a completely new project which was the gallery installation in 2006 at the (name 6:01) centre and then since then he has product a string of highly experimental features alongside a lot of video essays.

If we look at a film like Adieu Au Language his recent foray in 3D it has been phenomenally successful with all audiences around the globe both young old the Goddard veterans but also those coming to his work for the first time.

Very, very often Godard’s work gets rejected or it gets classified as being difficult or being in accessible or elitist or whatever when it comes out but then a decade later or a couple of decade later it is reclassified as a classic and it actually becomes much more accessible.

I think that one of the things that became actually an obsession for Godard particularly in the late seventies and into the eighties was what is uniquely cinematic, what is cinema in the sense of how do we put together certain elements in a way that isn’t pre planned to create something that is absolutely unique and to allows some kind of insight that comes directly out of the imagining sound rather than out of written or spoken language.

The Godard classic narrative is intrinsically tied up with capitalism. Something that distinguish him slightly from some of his colleagues at the time the new wave is that he is coming out of a deep engagement with an awareness of political modernism.

He was familiar with experimental writings of people like Faulkner and Joyce and so on that through his sense of ability and experimentation that was to fuel his experimentation with narrative.

Godard’s relation to politics is fascinating and quite complex. There is one period that is the period of the (9:35) group where he is basically align himself with a kind of malice and political line everywhere else in his work his politics is really, really difficult to read and in all of his works and a very good example of this is Le Petit Soldat which is his second film which was band because of it illusion to torture and war.

The politic was a very young player what’s characteristic of that film is that it just wound everybody up because it seemed to be, it wasn’t a tool obvious of the way he was positioning himself.

I think what was interesting about that film in relation to his later work is that in his later work very often there are conflicting political position within a single work which are kind of yoked together and they are presented and they are presented as a problem or a question.

Looking again on some of the group universal film some of the political films they are much more interesting than they are often given credit for. There is a film from 1968 called (10:47) a film like any other Godard basically kind of film students and worker in discussion about the implications of the events in May 1968 which is inter cut with Al kibo  (11:00) footage of the events that have gone on from May throughout the rest of May of 1968 and seeing it again recently it just struck me that they gave an absolutely fantastic.

The historical glimpse into the mentality of that period better written than any other film I can think of, the key concerns that the few of Godard’s work for that period is an attempt to find some kind of constructive dialogue between intellectuals and workers.

As for Godard’s representation of women it is complex and it is more interesting than is often recognized. There is a time in the late sixties and then into the late seventies where Godard starts engaging with feminists this is probably through (12:09) for example in (12:10) in 1975 (name)the female unit is cited fairly extensively on the sound tract.

It is not as if Godard is unaware of his use of the naked female body in his films. British sounds quite a good example because there we have a young naked woman where the text on the soundtrack which is just opposed with the representation of that body is basically one it is a feminist text about the exploitation of women in society and the exploitation of the images of women.

If Godard lesson own works which is TV series from 1976 that Godard navo made a very short notice within a very that is just a perfect Godard interruption.

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