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IFH 657: Audience•ology: Hollywood’s Best Kept Secret to Make Money with Kevin Goetz

Kevin Goetz has been at the center of what Hollywood calls the ‘movie research’ industry for more than thirty years and his position in the entertainment world is quite unique.

Named one of the most powerful and influential people in Southern California by The Los Angeles Times Magazine, Goetz became one of the leading advisors, researchers, and focus group moderators over two decades before starting his own firm, Screen Engine/ASI out of his living room.

Today, his research firm is a multi-million-dollar company that employs over 300 people worldwide where he works alongside the major film studio chiefs, decision-makers, network and streaming platform executives. 

The insights produced by his firm touch every aspect of entertainment and television content creation from selection, acquisition, casting, and production, to post-production, marketing, and distribution. Goetz recently wrote the book, Audience•ology: How Moviegoers Shape the Films We Love about an important aspect of his business—audience test screenings.

His podcast, Don’t Kill the Messenger, brings this book to life with filmmaker interviews discussing filmmaking, their films, and how audiences have impacted their final cuts. Goetz has also produced twelve movies and brings both a marketing and filmmaking perspective to the interpretation of his research analysis.

Kevin Goetz is a member of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences and several other distinguished organizations including the Television Academy and the Producers Guild of America.

He is a board member of five charitable organizations as part of his philanthropic endeavors and resides in Beverly Hills with his husband, Neil, and their labradoodle, Kasha. 

Please enjoy my conversation with Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz 0:00
When I was producing, I would hold the auditions, obviously, as the artistic director and the producer of the theater. And my advice to every actor who's trying really hard to get the job is to sit in casting sessions, a casting session, and you will come to realize very quickly why some people get the job. But mostly why you don't get the job.

Alex Ferrari 0:27
This episode is brought to you by the best selling book, Rise of the Filmtrepreneur how to turn your independent film into a money making business. Learn more at filmbizbook.com. I'd like to welcome to the show, Kevin Goetz. How you doing Kevin?

Kevin Goetz 0:42
Hey! I'm well Alex thanks for having me.

Alex Ferrari 0:44
Thank you so much for coming on the show. You are, as they say, an OG in the test screening space of figuring out what the audience loves and wants and, and more importantly, what they're willing to pay money for. Yeah. You've been doing this for doing it for a couple years now.

Kevin Goetz 1:02
I've been doing it for quite a long time 35 years?

Alex Ferrari 1:07
That's yeah. Wow. So you've seen a few things along the way, I'm sure.

Kevin Goetz 1:11
Oh, boy! Yeah. If these walls could talk, as they say,

Alex Ferrari 1:16
Well, I'll ask questions. And you could tell stories that you could say on air. And then after we stopped recording, you could tell me all the stories you can't say on air.

Kevin Goetz 1:22
On your private line. And I'll give you the real the real stories.

Alex Ferrari 1:28
So first and foremost, how did you get into this line of work? How did you get interested in the film industry in general?

Kevin Goetz 1:33
You know, I've always been interested in, in film, but I was always, I always like to say sort of my DNA was a being in show business. I was a child actor. It was in my blood, I always knew that this was what I was supposed to do. I was a dancer, I was a singer, I was a what we call a triple threat if you're from the Broadway scene, and I made my living doing a lot of commercials, TV commercials and theater around the New York area. So that's that's what I did until I went to Mason gross School of the Arts at Rutgers, which is one of the best acting conservatories in the country, and I studied with Bill Esper, the Meisner technique. And that was a four year conservatory, Graduated, went to New York, and started working up pretty regularly, sort of begin to get began to get like burnt out at my in my early 20s. And I'm like, this is not going to be a good thing, if I, you know, unless I really, unless I really commit to giving up control, if you will, and allowing others to decide my fate. I love and still love, the art of acting and the craft of it, and the under uncovering a character and all that. But what I found was I had a business sense on the other side of my brain that needed to be nurtured. So when I was 17, I started my first business. So I had an entrepreneurial business sensibility, and combined with the creative and the artistic sensibility, so it kind of was the way for me to, I had to listen to both voices. And it was kind of a way for me to find the right path. And it turned out that I got a survival job when I came to California to work as an actor. Because my residuals were drying up, I had done a play for four and five months. So you know, you don't get paid that much in theater. And so I needed to do some odd jobs. And one of them was working at a place called NRG National Research Group, and it was doing these test screenings, I had no idea what that meant. And that was about 3536 years ago. And I was sort of sort of plucked out of the chorus, if you will, by the principles of the company, because they saw a potential in me, I suppose. And, and I began to pull or coordinate focus groups, like pick the people to be in the focus groups after the screening. And then within two years, I was trained to be a moderator. And I he didn't really know what that was the art of it didn't really know much about marketing at the time. And it was all sort of learned in the field, you know, out there. And what was really interesting, Alex, is that, when I would moderate in the beginning, I would actually play the role of a moderator like I would, I would, I would give myself an objective, you know, you need to get as much information as you possibly can. That's your objective and you're seeing that you're about to do and you're a great listener, you've got to you know, my actions if you're an actor, you know what that means your app, my actions were, you know, really to, to gain as much information as I can to probe to you know, real real active active a Have verbs, which are the act the way the actor sort of creates behavior. And that's how I got through them. And I was successful at it. And suddenly, well, I wouldn't say suddenly, I would say, slowly, actually, I began to realize that, you know, I was, there was an art to this, you know, there was, there was a way of probing, there was a way of leading the witness, I had to sort of learn those things. And I took all sorts of sorts of courses in terms of other moderators, and I joined the qualitative research consultants Association, which is sort of a leading moderators, and I would take workshops and things. And I learned pejorative projects or projective techniques and different kinds of ways to, to, to engage with people behind two way mirror, you know, the two, so forth. And, and then I became, I guess, one of the most requested moderators, talking 30 years ago, 25 years ago. And then I was also a high finit. You know, I also still had my hand in acting, and then I moved into producing, and I began to produce at my own theater, in 1990. And then I, I, which I ran for five years as the artistic director and producer up in San Luis Obispo as the professional theatre called Central Coast Repertory Theater. And then I started doing movies, and television movies in particular, and then I made one and got a lot of acclaim. And we won an Emmy Award for it, called Wild Iris. And I really began to speak the film language in a different way. So now I had my moderating on the one side, and knew how to get into and talk to directors and producers about their movie. But you know, what was interesting, and I think this was my, my competitive edge was that I am an artist, and I understand the, and have a tremendous respect for filmmakers, I have a tremendous respect for the artists and people in our field, who have to sort of put their babies you know, and give birth to these children that are, are their creative beings. And they really take on a life of their own, and they're so invested filmmakers are so invested in so when I have an I call it the privilege to work on a movie, I really feel there's a responsibility, I have to represent the audience in the best way possible to give filmmakers the best information they can possibly get. This is a long way of saying that my journey was all meant to be, it's all the perfect path, if you will. So I talked about in my book audience ology, which I know that you, you've read, and we're trying to say nice things about, I think that's what you said. I talked about finding your end end. So you could start in one thing in life and think it's the absolute thing that you're supposed to be doing. And then you have a skill set, that also is really pretty strong. And you get to a point. And if you're lucky enough as I was to find great mentors and marry those two passions, and find your end, you will actually flourish in a more complete way.

Alex Ferrari 8:35
That's a that's profound, because so many of us as filmmakers, start off like I need to be Steven Spielberg, how many people said I, I'm the next, Steven Spielberg?

Kevin Goetz 8:44
I teach at film schools, several several times a year in all the major film schools around the country, and I have to say many.

Alex Ferrari 8:52
Right, exactly. But then as you start going through the path, and this is only from someone like myself, who's been doing this for close to 30 years as well, you get to that place where you're like, Well, I'm not going to be Steven, because there's only one Steven. So then we're like, well as I could do oh,

Kevin Goetz 9:09
By the way, and there's only one Alex. Correct. And when you can realize, right, that you there's only one Alex and Alex is extraordinary in his own way. Steven can't be Alex. Correct. Then you and that takes a lot of courage and confidence to live in your own skin comfortably and it took me years to get there. It does'nt happened overnight. Right. And you can relate to that right Alex?

Alex Ferrari 9:37
Absolutely! 110% took me forever to finally understand who I was feel comfortable in my skin. And that and that you're talking about is so important because it's just like, well, I could be a director and I could also maybe own a post production company and then exactly and then I could also write and so

Kevin Goetz 9:55
And write and have a podcast at but but but all of these things things bring you to the perfect place where you're supposed to be in life, if you lean into your gifts, not sit on them and wait in a room for someone to call, that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about putting yourself out there. But recognizing all these wonderful things that you have, finding those end or ends, and realizing them, you know, and that takes a certain degree of courage, I think, and self assurance,

Alex Ferrari 10:27
Right, and just like yourself, that you started off as an actor, but you your skill set, as an actor lends itself so beautifully into your, to your other career, the end of test screenings and understanding the audience and so on. It was kind of like with me, I was like I was I wanted to be a director. But I also had a skill set in post production. So I opened up a post production company, I became an editor and became a colorist, and I, post supervisor, and all of that while I was directing. So then, together, it became much more powerful, because it's a director on jobs that could package all of it together, like yeah, I'll tell you, I'll add it for free.

Kevin Goetz 11:00
That's on the practical side. But think about what you knew as a director that many directors don't know how to say, Oh, if I do this, oh, my gosh, that is going to cost me a ton in post, because I'm going to have the time this, where other people say fix it in post, alright, famous expression that we hear from many, many indie filmmakers is, they do it in post, we'll fix it in post. But you know, and you probably saved yourself countless hours. And by having the skill set of post production,

Alex Ferrari 11:31
Exactly and even when I'm doing this as a podcaster. Understanding how to talk, my skill sets, as a director has helped me to talk and have engaging conversations, raw conversations with my guests. And then all the technical stuff of the behind the scenes stuff, I was able to launch like this because I had 20 years of post production experience. And I'm like a podcast, I could do a podcast in my sleep, you know, comparatively to finishing 50 movies in my in my day, and so on, so forth. So it was just a really it. But I love that concept of the and I've never heard it put that way before. It's and I hope people listening don't get caught because they get so caught up in like, if you would have just said, I'm only going to be an actor, I'm gonna hold on tight to just that I'm not going to shift, I'm not going to pivot, I'm not going to move, and not allow it to unfold in the way it's had to unfold for best,the best.

Kevin Goetz 12:20
Another other example, excuse me, another example that I have is, when I was an actor, you know, there was so much personal investment that you would put out every time you went into an audition. When I was producing, I would hold the auditions, obviously, as the artistic director and the producer of the theater. And my advice to every actor who's trying really hard to get the job is to sit in casting sessions, a casting session, and you will come to realize very quickly why some people get the job. But mostly why you don't get the job. And so much of it is not something that you're doing, you may get the best reading but somebody is already cast is a redhead and the kid is a really dark haired child. And so you realize that that doesn't go with the redhead and you're already committed to the redhead. So you know, you got to then just so all of those things, that if you actually understood the process would make you more effective. And that goes for anything, as you were saying, in your case, it was post production in my case, you know, it was it was entrepreneurialship like really leaning into that and saying, Hey, you're, you're good at this, you're good at business. You know, I, I run a research company. And one of my probably, least strong skills is statistics. I've learned how to get by how to speak about means and mediums, all that stuff, but I have great statisticians that I hire that make me look really good. I know my deficits and that's another superpower is to know what you're not good at. And not be it's not modesty or in modesty. It's it's just like, know what you're not good at. And then kind of acknowledge it and try to fix it with some buddy else or some others person's gift or superpower. It's not going to be yours. There's so many things I recognize that I do well, and there's so many other things I realized that I'm subpar. I just am and I don't pathologize it I simply recognize it and say I'm gonna fill those those holes,

Alex Ferrari 14:46
But you are so comfortable in your own skin and that's when you're comfortable in your own skin. The ego is a little bit more tamed and when it comes to hopefully where you can identify those things and go like I can't stand audio. Still, to this day. I still can't deal with audio. I'm a visual guy. And in post production, I always just sent it off to the audio guy. I'm like, here, here are the stems. Mix it for me send me a stereo track back or send me the the stems back and I'll put it in and I'll deliver it but I, you know, sometimes I would send something up and said something like, You sent me a mono track. I'm like, I don't I can't tell I can't hear mono from stereo. I don't want to talk. Like it's just completely my kryptonite. It always has been from everything I've ever done. But I understood that and I, you know, didn't try to do it myself. I outsourced it. I understood that that's definitely not what

Kevin Goetz 15:32
I always loved. When I made movies, I always loved the mixes.

Alex Ferrari 15:36
Oh, yeah, I love being in the mix. I just don't like doing it.

Kevin Goetz 15:39
Gotcha, gotcha. But I always love the mixes because I, I always loved sort of understanding how much you can really, in that post production process. And in fact, screenings are really a part of the post production process, particularly with the studios, but we work on more independent movies and probably studio movies, in our total Arsenal every year. Just there's so many more movies that are people don't even know about there's three movies opening this weekend. And, you know, I'd like to know how many of your listeners even you know, know what they are. They probably don't know, any movie coming out on their radar except Ant Man, which is in like, you know, 3 3 4 weeks there's a there's a reason that you know, that the screenings have become so important in that post production process. Because they do inform often, you know, the the word of mouth of, of how your movie is going to really perform in the marketplace. So it's, it's a very important measure to understand before you embark on you know, the release.

Alex Ferrari 16:55
So let me ask you, because I'm gonna play devil's advocate here, because I'm assuming there's some filmmakers out there going, Well, why do we care about the audience? This is art. I am an artist, an artist, you know, you don't paint lilies. Van Gogh didn't paint lilies for an artist for for the audience. He built a painted it for himself. So to be the devil's advocate, why should filmmakers care about what the audience thinks in today's world understanding that if it's an independent film, versus a studio studio, $200 million dollars under million dollars, big things at stake, get that but as far as the indie world is concerned, why should they care?

Kevin Goetz 17:30
Well, that's saying that Steven Spielberg or whatever studio is not an artist. Exactly. Number one, right? Well tested movies, all the greats, test their movies, and have throughout movie done. In other words, since the beginning of movies, Charlie Chaplin, Buster, Keaton, Harold Lloyd all took their sequences up to Hollywood Boulevard and tested them, great filmmakers throughout history, great moguls, et cetera, tested their movies. And that has not changed, I find a person that doesn't do that is doesn't have a respect for the art form. The art form is not a painting, it's not a novel. It is not a singular vision, it is takes many craftspeople and artists to, to, to put to make a movie and and I told that Angley and I had a bit of a an exchange. It's in the book of my book, where, you know, he said, you know, Picasso never tested his paintings. And I said, because those supplies cost about five cents. And if he didn't like what he did, he could put it in the back of his closet. But you've just been handed $100 million to make your movie by people who absolutely have a stake in this financial stake and creative steak. I mean, the, you know, a studio studio executives are not some empty suits. They're awfully talented people, many of whom were filmmakers, many of whom come from a very serious development background, and they have lived and experienced, you know, how to structure a movie and the successes, the failures, etc. All throughout their lives, and to not include them. As part of the process is is disrespectful, I believe, not to mention, the fact that there are great, you know, cinematographers that have really been the star of many movies that I've worked on and have saved many movies, or the editors as you well know. An editor can be so impactful, and can help or hurt a movie, you know, tremendously uh, you know, I have a podcast it's called don't kill the messenger and and I just interviewed two editors and I want wanted the editors on there. One was Billy Goldenberg, who won the Oscar for Argo. And the other is David Rosenbloom, who was nominated for Oscar for Insider. And there's me great. These are two really, really terrific, terrific editors. And and we talked very much about the alchemy of what makes the movie successful. So if, and I want to qualify this, if a director has raised their own money, is wrote the movie is producing it and directing it and is what we used to call the O'Toole true Oh, tour. Yeah, you want to make it and you don't care about the financial repercussions, or how to leverage your art your asset, if you will. Go with God. But that's not 99.9% of how any movie is done or constructed. I still think if you are no tour, you should include the audience in the discussion because Who are you making this for? Any purist filmmaker, it says they're making a movie for the big screen. Okay. But if you're making it for the big screen, that implies that you want an audience to see it. And if you are going in that direction, getting feedback, getting how things land, at the very least, is at least giving you an indication of what to expect. And I like to say and I've said it a bunch of times if somebody honks at you on a freeway, you know, you know, you're an asshole. I'm sorry, they're an asshole. If somebody honks at you on the freeway, single person, they're an asshole. But if five people are honking at you on the freeway, you're the asshole. Right? And so you can choose if everybody is saying your ending is, is bumming me out in a way that is betraying what came before it. You can have sat endings, that's not the issue. But it's just not working. It's just not satisfying, emotionally or intellectually, or your movie is like so long in the middle, it goes on forever, and I disengage that is just not a good thing. And if everyone's telling you that, you can choose not to listen, if you paid for yourself at all. But if you haven't, then you want to hear them and say, Okay, what can I do? You know, Ron Howard says it best Alex, he really does. He says, Look, I get to, I get to find my script, okay, I get to cast it the way I want to, I develop it the way I want to first then I cast it, then I shoot it my way, then I edit it with my editor. And then I show it to an audience. And at that point, I have to give my child sort of send them to nursery school, if you will, or two, you know, and that's really painful. Hard to do, right? You know, oh my gosh, they're really becoming a person. And it's when the rubber hits the road. And you have to choose at that point, whether to turn off or listen. And in my experience in 35 years, the great filmmakers, and the most successful ones, listen, they listen to the audience. They don't necessarily make all the changes an audience says to make, but they listen and try to address why they're saying what they're saying exists because someone says that scene doesn't belong may not be the answer to the fix. By removing that scene, it may be something leading up to it, I often say and filmmakers on your podcast are going to agree with this completely. When there's ending problems and they're often are in many movies, as we know, it's the most important thing that a movie goers is left or a movie viewer we're saying that because some of you are on streaming are left with therefore you want your ending to land in a certain way. And if you if you can, you know sort of get that right, then you can change potentially the DNA and the trajectory of your of your, of your picture.

Alex Ferrari 24:29
Now, there was a very famous example that I it was so famous that it reached the public knowledge which was fatal attraction, how that movie was completely changed by the screening. And I saw the original ending and it was a bummer and it did not. It didn't it completely failed the point that we saw

Kevin Goetz 24:50
So what I was gonna say about before we get into fatal attraction to to finish the point I was just making is that often the ending is not the issue. It's Act One, that's the issue. And because act one was not set up correctly, this is a very common problem. They can't just fix an ending. Often sometimes you can sometimes in a comedy particularly there's a

Alex Ferrari 25:16
Fatal attraction and fatal attraction they reshot,

Kevin Goetz 25:18
In Fatal Attraction have to look at and fatal attraction is, how did it become so successful in the new ending, because what they set up was this guy, Michael Douglas, who was essentially a good guy who screwed up and had an affair with another woman, but it was a one night thing. And she didn't think so Glenn Close, obviously. And Archer, the wife was ready at by the end of the movie to forgive him. So in other words, he was on a path that clearly was felt like he was wanting to redeem himself and do the right thing. But she wouldn't let it go. So you know, but what happened was because they set that up, I think the audience was really bummed out that it became about Alex sorry, the character. And the character sort of took her own life at the end of the movie, which was kind of in many people's view, from a satisfaction standpoint, a cop out for right, and not having emotionally feeling like he that he leads the lead, Michael Douglas would get his proper come up and, and the wife, of course, didn't get any comeuppance. And so the audience spoke in loudly, and very much so in their scores and their ratings, that the ending was not working. So what they did is they went back and realized, the setup that they had done needed to pay off.

Alex Ferrari 27:01
Right, they were they were ramping it up, they were ramping it up, ramping it up, and they just dropped the ball at the edge or like

Kevin Goetz 27:07
Exactly and you can feel by the way, in the room, when you're in the room to that movie, you could feel the air being sucked out of the room. It was amazing. The focus groups afterwards, I would say. So how many of you liked the movie, every hand goes up? What were their ratings, the ratings were like, six, excellent. 10. Very good. For good, no FERS reports. But because of that, muted, excellent. People were not definitely recommending it, they were only probably recommending it. So there's a correlation between the definite recommend and how well your movies multiple is going to opening weekend multiple is going to be right. So in other words, if your movie opens to 10 million, and you do a three times multiple, that means you've done 30 million, or we'll do 30 million at the box office. So there's a correlation between that word of mouth and the bucks off. It's multiple. And so we don't want to torture filmmakers. What we want to do is say there are real financial implications that can be garnered, you know, gleaned from this so in the case of that it was a muted definite recommend response and the movie would have probably if not for this new ending. Done I don't know

Alex Ferrari 28:22
Decent boxer is a box office. Yeah, cuz it was a it was a very fine movie, and good stars and all that stuff. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz 28:29
They made the decision reluctantly, excuse me, reluctantly, by many to shoot me now. When I say many Glenn and Adrian line, were against it. Michael Douglas was for it. Different people have told me this. So I'm speaking from other people's recounting of this and so they they all acquiesced and they shot this amazing suspenseful Oh, it's not yet it was beautiful bathroom. And then some because it was like a twist on a twist. And now people talk about it as the Fatal Attraction ending. And for any filmmaker, watch them on the bus see the movie if you haven't seen it, because now several years have gone by so many younger people maybe haven't seen it, you must see it. And in so this thing, we're you know, I don't want I don't want to ruin it. But I will tell you that it's Michael Douglas gets redemption. Glenn Close gifts which he deserves. The wife gets redemption, or you know, no. Retribution. I didn't mean redemption. Michael just does get redemption sort of.

Alex Ferrari 29:41
But there's and he gets some come up and he does get some come up and says Well, hey, what's that?

Kevin Goetz 29:47
Yeah. 100% the audience cheers. Okay. The scores come up. I don't know. 2030 points. And the movie does. Awesome. Huge, huge. You know, she's on the cover of Time magazine.

Alex Ferrari 30:03
It was a cultural it was it was in the zeitgeist. Yeah, there's no question.

Kevin Goetz 30:07
That's right. And that was absolutely because audiences spoke. And it's why it's such a great and known example. But there's so many. I mean, I work on, I think I've done over five or 6000 movies in my, in my career titles, and most of them have some kind of change.

Alex Ferrari 30:26
Well, let me ask you, because this is another legendary one airplane, which is I think, before your time,

Kevin Goetz 30:30
It was before my time but aiming at I came in the late 80s.

Alex Ferrari 30:35
Right. So from what I heard that airplane had the worst, or the worst possible scores in the history of the studio at the time, and they're like, Oh, my God, this is gonna bomb. We can't fix this. Because there's no fixing airplane, you can't change a scene and change airplane. It's all a giant, you know, airplane movie, you can't change it. And then it comes out, and it's a monster hit. And from what I heard was that people at that time were embarrassed to say that they liked it. Because it was so silly. And that hadn't been something that's silly up to that point in that way before. Because if you watch our plane today, you're just like, This is amazing.

Kevin Goetz 31:16
Are you talking about the real the one with Karen Black? Where? The comedy,

Alex Ferrari 31:23
The comedy, The comedy, comedy.

Kevin Goetz 31:25
Well, there was an airport. I

Alex Ferrari 31:27
know there was airport and I'm talking about airplane.

Kevin Goetz 31:31
People know. Yeah, that introduced an entire genre that had never the spoof that had never really existed. And so there was no precedent for it. Right. So that's another reason why probably it didn't score well is that people didn't know where to put it. Had a classify it? Right. Goofy. I remember working on the naked guns. Oh, god. Yeah. I did every one of them. And I mean, from nothing's falling down the staircase.

Alex Ferrari 31:59
Oh, no. Yeah. Nice. Beaver. Yeah. Great.

Kevin Goetz 32:06
Oh, funny. And, and people just lost it. And but they were they were coming in with an expectation, and so on. Yeah, exactly. So you needed to deliver on that claim. So each one had to, like surpass the one before it, which sometimes it's successful is, you know, and sometimes not when you get to sequels, but that's only increased, that, that when I as IP has taken more of a front seat, and sort of the notion of the big idea, at became like the central focus of what drove people to theaters. You know, the, you had to satisfy you had more of a, if you're a studio, if you're a filmmaker, more of a responsibility to give the audience what they wanted.

Alex Ferrari 32:57
Right! without, without question,

Kevin Goetz 33:00
how enough tests that how could you? I mean, how could you not? Exactly, I have kind of have a reverence for the audience. When I call the audience can be 10 people, or it could be a million people. Just the word audience. And that's why the book is called Audience ology, because I kind of have become an advocate for the people, and the people, one person doesn't necessarily change the world, but the, you know, Wisdom of Crowds, as they say, It's a phrase and books that are out on that. There's validity to that. And it's that whole thing about the hunting on the freeway, it's like you want to, you want to listen to what the general consensus is, it doesn't mean you dumb it down. It means that you say, Okay, if all of these people are saying that, how can I figure out, so a lot of my time is spent helping the filmmakers figure out what is going on beneath the surface, you know, and that is also part of the art, I guess, of what I do, which is going back to my acting roots of understanding a character and peeling back the onion, to get to those layers underneath the character to be able to bring that that asset to filmmakers and say, well, here's what I think they're really saying, this is the subtext here, as opposed to, you know, change your ending. It's a comic needs more comedy, you know, like those things are unhelpful majority of the time.

Alex Ferrari 34:34
What was in all your 5000 Plus screenings that you've done over the course you know,

Kevin Goetz 34:40
20,000 plus 20 titles? No, I mean that because just to you, I mean, I'm literally out almost every night. Not anymore. I mean, I have a battery of folks that that that

Alex Ferrari 34:54
Do this for you now. Yeah. But with all the experience. Yes. What's the worst What's the worst screening experience you've ever went through that you can say publicly? Like the Movies screened poorly. The filmmaker didn't accept it.

Kevin Goetz 35:09
My worst experiences were on the with the audience didn't see which they were. They were logistical nightmares. Were an entire audience was cancelled by my people by accident, because we were over, confirmed. And everyone flew in from London and from it was in New York and from LA, the expense that went into just showing up. And a major, major big movie, a huge blockbuster. And there was like, there were like, 40 people, the only 40 people who didn't get the message that it was canceled. And the reason that they canceled is because we were so over confirmed that the we went back to cancel certain folks so that we wouldn't have a mad scene. You know, like a mob scene, the mad mad dash.

Alex Ferrari 36:03
So for them, one of the biggest blockbusters of its day or four people show up 40 people show up,

Kevin Goetz 36:07
40 people show up, and within 40 minutes, we got about 280 people from the mall to come. By I said, No matter any means. And this thing scored so well, on it was no science to it, though. But it was one of the worst nights of my career. And I recently had one where, you know, we have digital devices and the digital devices that we use to collect the data, we had a connectivity issue, and it was a nightmare. And fair enough, you know, so but we are now already we have ways to you know, we have paper and pencil standing by in case there's that issue. So we're able to get the data, but it is so unnerving. So those are the things that I really remember, as far as a movie is concerned, there are some that are just misses, they're just that you test it and there's complete and utter rejection doesn't happen often. It never happens with a studio. It just wouldn't happen anymore with the studio because the stakes are so high and so many people have touched it. It's never a unmitigated disaster. These are usually independent movies that just for whatever reason, were not executed well, and, and had marketing assets that just were like, non existent. You know, because there was nothing to hang your hat on. So you had not no marketability, and you had no playability. And so what do you say, you come out and you just say, you know, you and you know, they spent way too much on movie, you're like, sorry, those are those are really tough, because you feel for these people. And sure somebody is going to be losing a lot of money. And the director, if they didn't invest their own money will have reputational damage. And it's it's just a

Alex Ferrari 38:10
What was it was kind of like that movie back girl that Warner Brothers shelved recently. Like, I've never heard of that before. Yeah, I know. How odd is that movie that they can't just dump it on HBO backs? Like, I don't get that.

Kevin Goetz 38:24
We, you know? Well, I don't know the particulars of that. But if I were a guessing man, I didn't work on that particular movie, another company did. But my guess is, first of all, I heard that it wasn't that bad. Number one, go back and be like, your what?

Alex Ferrari 38:43
How bad they released show girls they've released.

Kevin Goetz 38:47
But you have to also what I would be asking myself is is it political brand? Their most important asset one of their five most important assets in the arsenal, the Batman. Does it hurt the brand? Does it hurt DC? That's an issue that I can't really speak about.

Alex Ferrari 39:07
But they released cat but they released Catwoman for God's sakes.

Kevin Goetz 39:10
I remember how many years ago was that? That was a while ago. Yeah, the Batman wasn't as good see, wasn't DC then. So now now you can compare the two. Look, I'm about fixing things. I would take a different approach. Misters Azov is has his own financial sort of agenda, which is I respect i How could you not I mean, it's really difficult decisions that he has to has to has to undertake, but the fact is, is is, that was part of the that was part of the cash. It was a casualty of that. Makes sense? So you know, as a researcher, I've fixed through audience reaction. So many movies And I would love to have taken a stab at it. My guess is my heard that they probably needed to reshoot a bunch. So are you going to spend exactly are you going to spend more money? I mean, like World War Z. I mean, they reshot, oh, ton, maybe a quarter of the movie. And it was a big hit. Huge. I do think that it's a it's a tough thing to look at. And until we are in the we are in the shoes of David Zaslav or of the executives at Warner's who made that decision, it's really hard to just say, why would why did they do it? I'm sure there was a compelling reason to do it, if not more than a compelling reason.

Alex Ferrari 40:43
And because it's unheard of, really it's the first film of that.

Kevin Goetz 40:47
It's kind of unheard of. It's kind of unheard of a shell of a was $100 million, at least some like that. I don't know. I don't know what it was. But yeah, something big. And you also don't want the reputational damage, which it did. They get a lot of flack for it. And I'm sure that was weighed in the equation. And it's just it's a lousy decision, no matter how it how it comes about.

Alex Ferrari 41:11
It's a lose lose.

Kevin Goetz 41:12
It's a loose, loose. It's kind of it kind of is there's kind of is, and yet it was done, you know.

Alex Ferrari 41:19
Now, this is a question I'm really wanting to hear your opinion on, because you've been working in the business for so long. And obviously, in the 30 plus years, you've been working in this, you've seen the business change. You know, you went through the VHS days, the DVD days. And now the streamer days Home Box Office days, you know, the mail days? Yeah, all those Yeah. You know, when you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger just shows up reading a telephone book and hits a $20 million opening I remember these days. But the theater experience seems to be not only taking a hit. But is it going the way of Blockbuster Video, like in the next 1015 years? Or they're just going to be less screens? Because the theatrical experience, you know, and don't get me wrong when a movie shows up, like Topcon or avatar. But those are the only two experiences that are the only two movies I can think of right away that everybody went out to go see. What do you believe is going to happen? And where do you think this is all going in the theatrical experience? Because I grew up in the theatrical experience. I love movies. You obviously grew up in that time period. It there's nothing like being obviously obvious. You just said 30 years, sir, you like 25? You just said 30 odd years.

Kevin Goetz 42:38
I set myself right up to that we

Alex Ferrari 42:39
We look fantastic, sir. No, but But seriously, like we both kind of grew up in that field. So there's nothing like the theatrical experience. But this new generation didn't grow up with it. So right. What do you think?

Kevin Goetz 42:52
Yeah, well, I think that it's, it's never coming back to the way it was. And I just think it's not an indictment on movies. It's not an indictment on the particular movie, necessarily. I'll explain that in a minute. It's more of an indictment, if you will, on consumer behavior and new generations. With the replacement of, of movies as a prime source of entertainment with television and gaming. With social media and short form, entertainment. Gen Z's are really, and half of millennials are really, I wouldn't say rejecting the theatrical experience. They just don't care about it in the same way that you and I did, because we had, there was a nostalgic quality to it, there was a romanticism, there's something about being in a theater that excites us, because we grew up with it. So we have different memories, and so forth. The younger generation just doesn't feel that. So as people age out and age up, there's going to be less attendance. In terms of a wide variety of movies in a theater, three things happened that have never occurred at the same time, right, which is this notion of choice, so much choice, the notion of price. The price is just too damn expensive, to not be selective about what you're going to see. And convenience. You know, it takes what, about 40 minutes? On average? I think it's 3840 minutes to decide what movie and get in a car to go to like that's the average as opposed to like 16 or 17 minutes to choose a movie through streaming and, and be at home. You can buy five or six streaming so Ever since for the cost of a family for going to one movie, with concessions in parking cetera, you can't compare the the value proposition. However people still like going to the movies, they also like going out of the house, occasionally, occasionally, movies will become more of a product of like a show or a concert. And what that means is an experience. So if you don't have a movie that has some kind of experiential component to it. Elevated, fun, elevated, fun, elevated, that means a horror movie that is, oh, it's just a really kick ass comedy that still comedies not really come back. No. And I'm not sure they, they, they will there will be a comedy that just does so well. You know, like There's Something About Mary Crazy Rich Asians remember how that's not?

Alex Ferrari 46:06
That's not good. But that was pre pandemic too. So that's the other thing

Kevin Goetz 46:10
I understand that but no one expected it to do the blockbuster business, there will be one because there's always one. There's one like, like, just when everyone's had romantic comedies are dead, you know, ticket to paradise comes in sort of works. And then just when they said dramas are dead, you know, man called Auto comes in and works. But it doesn't work that they were shot. They're not I mean, it does make a point, or can prove a point that there is an audience that will still go, but it's far less. So really the this as the population grows, actually, more people will go to movies, but we'll see such such you were you were movies, fewer titles. So what you just said is 100% Right now I have a theater and then a screening in my house. So I watch everything on a big screen. And it's with Dolby and the whole thing and I'm very blessed to have that. So I never need to go to a theater and I spent my life working on movies in theaters. But I left my house to see Avatar, you know, because, of course, of course. My house to see Top Gun. Yes, I did to leave you chose. I did not leave my house for anything else.

Alex Ferrari 47:30
You and me are the exact same. The only two movies I've seen in a theater other than maybe press screenings or something like that. No, I'm not talking about work. No, that's different. Because I just saw a man from auto and things like that but theatrically but for me to get out. Go pay tickets. It was top gun because that's like I have to go see top gun because it's an experience. And I go it's avatar because it's avatar and it's James Cameron possible in a theater. I will probably see Mission Impossible to Oppenheimer in a theater. You know, you're absolutely right. That's a prime another but again, these are

Kevin Goetz 48:03
Even though it's a drama, quote on but it's but a Nolan trailer and I was Nolan. It's Nolan it's Christopher Nolan. It's not viatical it's going to be an expirience

Alex Ferrari 48:13
But the fable ones. I'm not gonna go see them the theaters. I want to see it and it's I'm looking forward to wonderful. I'm looking forward to it.

Kevin Goetz 48:22
You know, it's so interesting. There's a great filmmaker. And I'm not being cheeky, I really don't remember when I say great filmmaker, a very popular filmmaker, a very well, a well known filmmaker and but I forget which one it is, but said this quote, which is my favorite movie of all time is jaws. And I have never seen it in a movie theater. Isn't that interesting?

Alex Ferrari 48:50
I've never seen jaws and

Kevin Goetz 48:53
This notion of you have to see things in a movie theater is just not the case. And and if it were the case, the Academy of which I'm a member would you know make it mandatory that people have to see movies in a theater, it's just unrealistic. And it's just not true. I don't get any less enjoyment from 90% of most movies, because I've seen them on a big screen. Forget my screening room but I'm talking about like a big screen of any of us have with flat screen. Well, just having a 72 wins. It's an again, you have a lot of people a lot of my friends have these sound packages that are really cool in their rooms that are surround sound, etc. And they really emulate the experience and many theaters have gone the wrong direction in a way and have tried to emulate the living room as a way to ingratiate the consumer and bring them in. So they have these great reclining seats and the screens have gotten smaller and Right. It's like, as the theaters have condensed their the experience to make it more elite or, you know, like food service. And homes have gotten bigger and will get bigger. You know, the Consumer Electronics Show shows walls of screen like walls of screen in your home, it will end up being a feature like marble floors and granite counters.

Alex Ferrari 50:24
So it's Total Recall, like Total Recall had that like they just turned up.

Kevin Goetz 50:27
But I'm saying I would say exactly. But I would say you'll, you'll say I like I'd like the full screen in the game rec room or the den and the sound package as well also in the master. So you're going to have like a wall screen and it'll be part of the feature of the buildings built ins. You know what I mean? So this is going to happen. So everything points to there's going to be a there has to be condensing reduction of screens. I mean, Regal just filed for bankruptcy. As you know. They're closing one of my favorite theaters in Los Angeles, which is Sherman Oaks

Alex Ferrari 51:07
They're closing Sherman. Yeah. Wow.

Kevin Goetz 51:11
Were you in LA?

Alex Ferrari 51:12
Yeah. But I wasn't really for 13 years.

Kevin Goetz 51:15
Yes. So this is that's my theater that I go to. Or Burbank. That's the Burbank

Alex Ferrari 51:21
I lived in Burbank. So that was my AMC was. And they always had the test screening guys out front always

Kevin Goetz 51:27
Oh, well, we do. Um, they're probably once a week, I think

Alex Ferrari 51:30
Every day but always, Oh, is there

Kevin Goetz 51:33
A second home. I like I like I own a second home in Burbank and the theater. There a lot. And it's just, it's a lot of people like it. It's it's a very good testing location, because it is ethnically racially diverse. It has a level of sophistication, but also sort of working class folks, you know, does that regular regular people regular back did that does that. And there's a there's also you get a mixture of you know, education, which is really nice. So as far as testing, it emulates a lot of pockets in the United States. So it's a good, it's a good testing ground. So it's like the block in Orange County or Long Beach. Those are really important in the LA area.

Alex Ferrari 52:20
Well, let me ask you, then, with all this conversation of theatrical, where does that leave you in the work that you do? Do you still do test screenings for things that are going to streaming? And how is that how does that work?

Kevin Goetz 52:33
Well, it speaks to our conversation that we had at the beginning of the podcast, which is people are going to it's important to get your the the opinions of folks, whether it is what the platform agnostic in other words, it's whether it is on a streamer debuting on stream or debuting in a theater, that word of mouth is going to dictate how, how strongly the movie will perform. And streamers want and report now on drops, as well, they want to make the best version of itself they possibly can. And when I say the best version, I mean, the one that appeals to the widest, widest number of folks. And that is a very important determination. So all of the streamers are my clients. And even even though may I say now my biggest clients and I will say this I also during the pandemic, we went into triage mode at screen engine ASI, which is my company, we went into triage mode. And we we came up with we invented a synchronous, that means in real time screening platform for two to 300 people, that you as a filmmaker can stay in your home and watch people watching your movie at once. So that's where it's gone. And well, a lot of it did go there. But many people still are holding on to this notion of looking at a movie in a theater. So half our business is on the small screen and half our business is still on the big screen. And we've only increased exponentially because as content increases, so does our business. Because as you're saying, and it's a really good point just because something is not theatrical is not an indictment on your movie. Yet you need the same results you need strong word of mouth. You want to have good critics ratings, you want to have scoring and scores so that your subscribers if it's a streamer, are satisfied like these are important things to know and understand. And unless you engage with the audience, how the hell are you going to know that?

Alex Ferrari 54:56
Well doesn't doesn't the streamers have an immense amount? have data that the studio's just do not have in the sense of the algorithm and what people are watching and when they're coming off. I mean, they know so many data points on a movie. That's one of the reasons why from what I understand Adam Sandler keeps getting those 100 million dollar deals at Netflix because their data states, people watch it people, you know, click on it, people continue to enjoy his kind of humorous kind of films, where most of us are like, but how is Adam keep getting all these get that he's a silly film. A lot of his movies are silly and comical when he's not doing his dramatic stuff. But you're like, wow, he's still going Why is Netflix doing

Kevin Goetz 55:35
You have a clearly they have more many more data points and metrics, then the studios are able to but you know, like, we have a product called Host track. So every week, screen engineer size in partnership with comScore. And it's the exit poll currency, everyone subscribes to the product. And we gauge reaction to studio movies and who actually showed up. So we can tell you, the actual audience demography, and how they rated it in those individual groups. So they're not without data should definitely less sophisticated, of course, then the streamers are able to, to to have, but you know, theatrical is a big bet business, right? You're spending big dollars. But there's no question that those marketing dollars at create a movie getting into the zeitgeist that a streaming movie simply doesn't do, and I believe increases the value of the IP. Even if it's not as successful in its theatrical run, the sort of the goodwill, if you will, or the nature of the of the of the asset takes on a more important, you know, life than if it doesn't have a campaign behind it. It feels has more gravitas, it feels like it's a bigger thing. So with that comes the positive of what I just said, but also comes with tremendous risk, because you have to make that much more money to make back the P PNa. And that the PNA is could be significant, you know, on on movies, and, you know, you have to sort of double down it's kind of like you're, you're talking about that girl. So if you know fat girl was something that was gonna go theatrical. They'd have to spend how much to get people 100 150 Yeah, something like that. It'd be insanely probably somewhere between my guess is somewhere between 75 and 100 worldwide to get that movie, you know, properly plays, etc. So you have to then say where does one cut their losses. And that is what more and more people will probably be doing. But cutting your losses usually means then taking a loss but going on a stream or not investing in the PNA. But if streamers don't want the movie, or if you think you might do damage to your overall brand, there may be compelling business reason to do it. And so

Alex Ferrari 58:22
It's it's fairly interesting. Now, can you talk about your new film audience.ology in a film book. Audience.ology?

Kevin Goetz 58:30
Well, it's made me made into a film

Alex Ferrari 58:32
Starring Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt. It's amazing.

Kevin Goetz 58:35
First of all, it's a year old already. But it's, it's been a best seller, Simon and Schuster. pretty thrilled about it in its category, man. It's not like New York Times, you know, we've sold 2 million copies. But it is gotten really great feedback and press and critical response. And I couldn't be more proud of it. I worked on it with my, with my co author, Darlene Heyman, for like 12 years. So it was interviews, interviews, interviews, and then finding the right voice and structure. And, and because it was as successful as it has been, and it's now in paperback. Simon and Schuster gave me a second book, which I'm writing right now with my co author, Bob Levin, and that is called how to score in Hollywood. And that book,

Alex Ferrari 59:26
Great title.

Kevin Goetz 59:28
Why don't come up with a good title, you know, you know, that's, that's not good. That's not good. Consider it heading, having been tested, et cetera, et cetera, up but what I was gonna say was that book is about getting to the green light. And what does it take to get to the green light? What's the alchemy? And what goes through people who are in that position to give it the Yes. What do they go through? What are they feeling? How much audience response to they use? How much should they use it? And so we take on that debate a little bit as well. So I think it's going to be a fun fun read. But I have no idea when I'm going to finish it because we're about halfway through, we love where it's going. So does so does the publisher, but I'm running a business, I am doing my podcast. And I think, by the way, I think a lot of people who do actually listen to yours would like my podcast, if I can do a shameless plug, sure, of course, don't kill the messenger, it's called, which don't kill the messenger came about because that was originally gonna be the title of audience ology. And it's interesting, that was my title for a long time. So it's kind of married to it. And it basically the publisher at Simon Schuster thought it was maybe a little too self serving and, and let's put it on the audience, which is what it's all about. And in, I don't know, maybe 15 years ago, Patrick Goldstein did a feature on the calendar cover the calendar section of the LA Times. And he he dubbed me the Doctor of audience ology. And when I brought that up in the book, they said, you know, we love this idea. And that's how audience ology came to be. And it really is kind of taken on a life of its own in terms of the possibilities and, and so forth, maybe doing a TV show and around it and all that, in any event, don't kill the messenger is what it means it's I'm coming in to deliver the news of the audience. You know, don't beat me up. It's the easiest thing to do is to is to is to pick on the guy who's who's has to give you the truth and or tell you the truth. And so it's been a sticky title up I kind of base the podcast on the notion of people have an interest in like yours, your podcast, people have an interest in movies. There some war stories of screening experiences, but getting into individuals who have made an impact continue to make an impact, and how that affects kind of, as you said, the post production and, and in particular, the screening process.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:13
Now, my last question to you is, what is the craziest, most entertaining, insane screening event that you can talk about publicly?

Kevin Goetz 1:02:22
I think the one that pops in my head, well, two of us, two of them pop into my head Borat

Alex Ferrari 1:02:27
Oh my god, what was the Borat like?

Kevin Goetz 1:02:30
For at the original Borat screening, which was in Marina Del Rey. Remember, no one really. Some people knew the algae character. Yeah. But they didn't know Sacha Baron Cohen. Really? He? He did this movie. It was never saw anything like it. And people were pissing in their pants. I don't know how else to say it. I mean, I got, you know, the wave, like the wave. They do it ballgames they were doing that one guy got up from he was sitting like in the fifth wrote to the screen, he got up and ran up and down the aisle with his arms. And people were just laughing at that, because he couldn't contain himself. When the teabagging scene happened. Oh, no, no, that's just it was it was it people were just out of their minds. And so it scored hugely. And it was a great, it was one of those magic moments of your experience something in a culture, you know what I mean? And the other thing another one was like, was something about Mary? Oh, yeah. Another one like that. Yeah. When Ben when Ben Stiller comes out with the, with the hair gel. Oh.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:39
Cameron Diaz. Cameron Diaz has,

Kevin Goetz 1:03:42
Because of his sorry,

Alex Ferrari 1:03:43
No, she she comes out with this thing. His his manhood.

Kevin Goetz 1:03:50
I was gonna say, but and with the zipper. Oh, there's when the dog flies out the window. Lin che and see your eye? Alex laughing Yeah. Because imagine being in that first screening and not knowing that that was oh, what it was it was just crazy and peep. It was one of those and I I've had many of those. The first screening of Forrest Gump the first screening of Titanic.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:21
Oh my god, what was the Titanic screening?

Kevin Goetz 1:04:23
It was people went nuts because it was one of those it was I compare it in the book to the gauntlet that when screening that is alleged to have happened, it did happen. I spoke to Samuel Goldman before he passed away about it because he had talked directly to Darryl Darryl and not their authentic David O. Selznick. And essentially, it was we got the executives to Minneapolis. No one knew what we were going to see Fox. Tom sherek arranged it so people just showed up at the airport for the private jet and we were flown to to Minneapolis and Jim Cameron, was there already trying to set up lights and for the question, you know, and arranging things and and I said, this is not great expectations, which is what we were told we were going to see. That was a fake title. So people thought they were going to secret expectations. And when I, when I mentioned that, actually, I don't think I mentioned the title. What happened was, I said, I'm so glad to hear and they're like, what is it? What is it and then all of a sudden, the water thing comes up. And that water image, and people thought it was a trailer at first. And then it said Titanic and people were like, oh, and because

Alex Ferrari 1:05:42
Because because at the time for everyone listening, everyone was bashing Titanic because it's never going to work the world's biggest flop. It's how are you going to even how can you make a movie about Titanic? We all know the ending and all of this stuff. Oh, I remember all of that, because they were just killing Jim over the most expensive movie ever made. And all those years.

Kevin Goetz 1:06:03
So that was that? Watch. I was crazy. That was crazy. And I also remember, oh, there was a great story of us recruiting. I remember it was I think it was the first Toy Story. And but we recruited it under something. It wasn't Benji, but it was something like last week, something like last year, and we recruited the movie with this. And then we get up to announce the name. It wasn't me. But another colleague got up to announce the name of the movie. And people were like, boo, because they never heard a Toy Story. And by the end of it, a new franchise was born. And people were like Benji, who lastly, what?

Alex Ferrari 1:06:50
Because imagine, imagine seeing Toy Story for the first time when nothing had ever been released like that before. I can't even imagine.

Kevin Goetz 1:07:00
And so you've got all these great, great stores, people audiences, discovering these great movies,magic.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:09
And I think you were saying that there's going to be a comedy that's going to break through again, something like bore at if anyone has the balls to make a film, because I remember watching Blazing Saddles. It when I when I was working at the video store when I was a young man,

Kevin Goetz 1:07:23
I worked at video store. That's that's where I

Alex Ferrari 1:07:28
Five years, five years, my mom and pop in Florida.

Kevin Goetz 1:07:31
I was in New York City and I was the weekend manager.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:37
I wasn't I was I was a manager I was a manager.

Kevin Goetz 1:07:40
So talk about finding your end, I realized the owner was just blockbuster was soon to open a year later. But it was before Blockbuster and I put a business plan together and I said I want to buy your business and guess what? He fired me. What felt threatened I was 21 years old. He felt threatened and and I was dumbfounded it was the greatest thing ever. And then a year later he was out of business because blockbuster went on 79th Street and it was like done dude all those mom and pops as you know went out of business

Alex Ferrari 1:08:11
Done they were done but I was I remember watching Blazing Saddles because I was those times I was watched so

Kevin Goetz 1:08:17
We would walk put movies on while we were we had a real shrink wrap our movies and

Alex Ferrari 1:08:22
Obviously obviously I did the same thing you knew right? Yeah, when you're gonna resell the used ones you'd be shrink wrap them and put them out of course of course. Yeah, I used to play Nintendo in the back and watch movies up front. So I'm watching Blazing Saddles

Kevin Goetz 1:08:35
I went into the X rated section here in there

Alex Ferrari 1:08:37
I didn't our city did not allow pornography of Florida so it was that area of there was like a couple couple of areas over wide area or large l Fort Lauderdale for whatever reason

Kevin Goetz 1:08:50
That's more aggressive than a lot of

Alex Ferrari 1:08:52
It did not allow it but like, if you went to another city you couldn't but for whatever so I never had that joy. But I'm watching Blazing Saddles.

Kevin Goetz 1:09:02
We're seeing Debbie does Dallas. I'm just going to tell you Well, I mean, you don't know what you miss.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:06
Listen, people find a way but

Kevin Goetz 1:09:11
Before there was the internet doing which we tested, No, I'm joking.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:14
No, we tested and but watching Blazing Saddles I said, this movie will never be there's nothing that will ever come out. As like ballsy as this film, like it was just a couple of first of all that movie can never come out today. Like as as it just in the culture and the climate that we have today would never be able to come out today. But when Borat showed up, I was just like, how did this sneak through the guard gate? Like how in God's green earth? Did they do it? And then when they released it during I think it was pandemic 2021 He reads a sequel I'm like, or 2020 Whenever he released that

Kevin Goetz 1:09:51
We worked on that really. Like thanks. Sasha wrote a really, really nice quote for the back of my book. And we worked. I did all the Borah, second one, two and beyond so much fun. And I just interviewed on my podcast, Monica Levinson, who produced it. And she talks about, if you want to hear it that should have been her being arrested, and how that all worked and how they get releases and stuff. That was pretty cool.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:19
How they were able to do stuff like but you know, and not to go off too far off the train here for a second. But what Sasha does he his life is threatened. Like the stuff that he would do. It was like life threatening situations. He put himself in for our comedy like Jerry's.

Kevin Goetz 1:10:36
No, that that concert we talked about the concert, you know, that concert? Yeah, in the second in the second one. And you saw that they were trying to tip over the ambulance that he was being taken. He was genuinely fear fearful. I mean, you could see it,

Alex Ferrari 1:10:50
Because he just, he might have jumped he just might have gone too far. Like siblings just might have just just a little bit might have gone too far. Because that's not for me, either. But, but for his safety. He might have gone well, yeah, yeah, that's what I mean.

Kevin Goetz 1:11:06
But the whole thing is based on this authenticity, and so it's just amazing to me, also what people will do, and sign away.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:16
I know Oh, yeah. After after bar, I came out there was like lawsuits trying to like I did well, like why we because they signed the release. And because they didn't know, you know, like, some of the stores he went into and some of the things he did. And people sign the releases. And they're like, no, no, it's like that whole dinner, that whole dinner scene where he comes back with a sack

Kevin Goetz 1:11:33
Don't get me don't get i i literally I when I watched the second one, I fell off my chair during the movie. Oh, God, if you get what scene it was, I literally fell off my chair. I was in the desert in Palm Springs. Doing it remotely on this platform, the virtual works platform. Yeah. And suddenly, I'm like, laughing so hard. And I was on a small chair and I I pulled myself back fell off. And they're like, where do you go? He's that Yeah. Oh my god.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:11
Yeah, but where can people find out more about you and the work that you're doing, sir?

Kevin Goetz 1:12:15
Well, my social media is Kevingoetz that's goetz. Yeah, Kevingoetz360 and I'm on all the social media platforms. And the book is called Audience.ology. It's on Amazon. It's there's a, you can get it the the I read it as well. And then also, the podcast is called don't kill the messenger. And that's also just Google that it's on all the different platforms.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:41
Kevin, I appreciate your contribution to film history. Over the last 30 years. My friend seriously!

Kevin Goetz 1:12:47
Your such a pleasure and you're such a wealth of knowledge and to talk to someone who is in the know and really gets it. You have great enthusiasm, great enthusiasm.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:57
I appreciate you very much my friend. Thank you again.

Kevin Goetz 1:12:59
Thank you so much!

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IFH 656: Confessions of a Million Dollar Screenwriter with Diane Drake

Today on the show, we have million-dollar screenwriter Diane Drake. Her produced original scripts include ONLY YOU, starring Robert Downey, Jr. and Marisa Tomei, and WHAT WOMEN WANT, starring Mel Gibson.  Her original script for ONLY YOU sold for $1 million, and WHAT WOMEN WANT is the second highest-grossing romantic comedy of all time (Box Office Mojo). In addition, both films have recently been remade in China, featuring major Chinese stars. And WHAT WOMEN WANT has recently been remade by Paramount Pictures as WHAT MEN WANT, with Taraji Henson starring in the Mel Gibson role.

Diane, who is a member of the Writers Guild of America, recently authored her first book, Get Your Story Straight, a step-by-step guide to writing your screenplay. She has taught screenwriting through UCLA Extension Writers’ Program and now offers story consulting and her own guided online course via her website.

Diane has also been a speaker/instructor for The Austin Film Festival, the Atlanta Film Festival, the Rocaberti Writers Retreat in Dordogne, France, the American Film Market, Scriptwriters Network, Phoenix Screenwriters Association, Stowe Story Labs, Romance Writers of America, Oklahoma Writers Federation, University Club, Storyboard Development Group and the Writers Store, among others; and a judge for the Humanitas Prize, the Austin Film Festival and the UCLA Writers Program.

In this episode, we get into the nitty-gritty of being a screenwriter in Hollywood. Diane is very open about her experiences, the good and the terrible. If you want to be a working screenwriter in Hollywood, then get ready to take notes.

Enjoy my eye-opening conversation with Diane Drake.

Alex Ferrari 3:05
I'd like to welcome to the show Diane Drake. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Diane Drake 4:38
Thank you so much for asking me it's my pleasure.

Alex Ferrari 4:40
It's been an absolute pleasure to have you before we even get started. I have to say how much I love your your first screenplay. The only you it is was forever. For all those listening who don't know that movie only you is starting a very young and Babyface Robert Downey Jr. and Marissa Mayer And Bonnie Yes, as well. Oh, and Billy Zane, if I remember correctly, is in that movie as well. And Billy's A. And the reason I bring it up first is because it was it was during my video store days when I first saw that movie. And of course, I had a huge crush on Mercer to me because everybody of my generation has that crush without question. So when that movie came out, I was just like, Oh my God, but it was honestly the first experience the first time I actually fell in love with Italy because it was shot so beautifully. The director, Norman Jewison, right.

Diane Drake 5:34
Yes, the director was Norman Jewison. And the cinematographer was fun night. This too, was legendary. I mean, he did Ingmar Bergman's movies, and he done Woody Allen's movies. And I think the only reason he did this movie was because it was Italy with a lot of people who want to work on that movie, because it was Italy.

Alex Ferrari 5:53
Yeah, it's a rough, it's a rough shoot, that's a rough shoot,

Diane Drake 5:55
you know, I tell you, I was no pool, but I'll tell you something about that. So So I, when I came up with the idea, I was very much in love with Italy. I'd been there once, briefly. And I really loved it. And I wanted to go back. So it was sort of a vicarious, you know, fantasy of mine. But the other thing was that I had realized that I felt at the time and I could be wrong about this, but I don't think so that you really hadn't seen Italy on the big screen in a while. And the only place you had seen it was in like any movies like Cinema Paradiso, or there was a lovely, lovely movie. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but I love it called Enchanted April.

Alex Ferrari 6:38
I remember that movie.

Diane Drake 6:38
Yeah. Oh, it's such a beautiful movie. So, um, so and I knew by virtue of the nature of the story, that it had to go somewhere, right, and I didn't, you know, she had to take off. And I didn't want to go from LA to New York or whatever, right? I really want to go to Italy. So I'm like, I'm gonna send her to Italy. And in fact, I don't know if you remember, but they travel all through Italy. And kind of late in the movie, they go to post Toronto. And I had never been to post Toronto. So I sent them to post Toronto because I wanted to go to post. But one of the little wrinkle of this is that when I was writing that script, and I was down and out, I was unemployed I had, I had had one little tiny say, like, gotten to the Writers Guild, we can talk more about that if you want. But, um, but I was struggling. And a really close friend of mine, who I whose work I really respected a lot. And he was a script ahead of me. And we both worked in development prior to this, and we were both out of work. And I just really, I trusted his judgment. And so I was kind of having problems with the script as one does. And he very sort of cockily said to me, you know, he's like, Well, I'll send it to me, I'll read it, we'll have brunch, I'll tell you I give him a note, you know, I'll help you fix it. So we did that. And his notes were really good. I knew that I was so funny, too, because I literally just pulled them out. I hadn't looked at them in a million years. But I knew it meant I was gonna have to tear the script apart. And that would be difficult, but I knew it would make it better. So I was okay with that. But But the other thing he said to me was, but don't set it in Italy. And I was like, Why? Why not set it in Italy? And he's like, because if he said in Italy, it just becomes a movie about Italy. So there's a little lesson for you, you know, take what is useful for you. And we asked, because I just felt like no, you're wrong about that. To me. That was one of the great joys of it started as writing it. And I think it has been for people watching it. And I will tell you that movies done really, really well and DVD and whatever. I don't know if they stream it now, but I think a large part of the reason obviously, Robert, of course, you know, come on. But

Alex Ferrari 8:49
But but also Robert was Robert circa 1994. Isn't that Robert circa 2008 2018?

Diane Drake 8:56
No. He was a big star.

Alex Ferrari 8:59
Oh, he was a he was a star. What was that before after Chaplin? I think that was

Diane Drake 9:03
before it was actually let me think about it for a minute. I think it was for

Alex Ferrari 9:10
I think it was before Chaplin and before he had his his problems.

Diane Drake 9:14
Yeah, well, between us he had some problems then. But here's the thing. Here's the thing. In spite of that, he was extraordinarily professional, extraordinarily kind. I can tell you this, the sweetest story about him if you want me to later, that to this day makes me kind of cry. I mean, he was lovely. He was lovely. He may have had his own demons at the time, but he was amazing. And I think that's part of the reason there was so much goodwill for him, you know, in all right, you know, because he's just such a gracious, kind, gifted person. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 9:48
No, no question. I had the pleasure of meeting him once at Sundance and he was just such a just a darling, he was no reason to be nice to me. I was just as a little, you know, guy just walking up like hey, You know, can I get a picture? I gotta talk. And he was such a sweet man. But I do love that movie in the magic between him and Marissa, were just wonderful in that film. But before we go off on a tangent, because we could talk about only you for the rest of us. First of all, how did you get into the business?

Diane Drake 10:15
Okay, so it depends how far back you want to go. But basically, I'll try to make it brief ish. I am. When I got into college, I had a degree in communications, visual arts, and it's kind of worthless, you know, in the marketplace, it wasn't worth it to me. You know, I had no connections or anything. And so I thought, well, I guess I'll be practical, because my BA is not real practical. And I'll get an MBA, because that's what everyone was doing. And I guess that seemed like a good idea. And I hated it with passion. And I remember sitting in my accounting class and thinking, if I survive this, and, and this is going to qualify me to do this for the rest of my life. And I don't want to do this. So I quit. And which was really hard, because I'd been a pretty good student up to that point. And, you know, it's like taking out loans and everything, but it's just wasn't for me. So I that was not in California, that was in Colorado. So I moved back to California, and decided I would go to law school, because that's impractical. But I thought, but I'll do it in California. And I'll do entertainment law. And that'll be kind of sort of cool. And it'll be practical, too. And so I got a job in the legal department at what was then Columbia Pictures and applied. And I looked around, and I saw how miserable a lot of people in the world of art and luck. And before I got into USC, and I got on the waiting list for UCLA. But I didn't want to spend the money to go to USC and I ultimately did not get into UCLA. And I thought, okay, I mean, I don't know that I want to do this anyway. And so that, that it was at that point that I first learned, because I was working on the lot, that there was such a job as being a reader. I didn't know that that job even existed when I started. So I thought well, I could do that, you know, and, and that's how I started. And I started as a reader and worked freelance as a reader and worked my way up. You know, I did acquisitions for an independent company for a while. And then my last job, before I started writing was I was a VP of creative affairs for Director Sydney Pollack. Um, you know, at the time, you know, it was a really good spec sale era. Yes, it was. And I can go into more about how I was leaving there, but basically, you know, I just kind of looked around, and I thought, well, you know, that looks like a pretty good life, you know, like, this writer was off on a cruise around South America, I mean, seemed very glamorous, you know, because they were feature writers, and they were at the top of their game. And so, you know, it was like, well, and here I was sitting in judgment on these people's work. But having said that, to be a critic, it's a write about writing is a lot easier than writing, let me just say, you know, so, it is, it is a different skill in a way. And I think the thing that I lacked, and I wound up having a little talk with myself about it was confidence. And I think by that point, I had read an awful lot of scripts, and I felt like I had a relatively good understanding of the process, at least intellectually. And I would read stuff that I thought, you know, not necessarily stuff that our company was working on, but you know, just around town that it's old or you know, was getting heat or whatever and I would think it wasn't that great you know, and like and these guys and in most cases, they were guys did not know as much as I did. But then I had to realize I'm like, Yeah, but they're doing it and you're not no, no.

Alex Ferrari 13:41
Yeah, fair enough. Well, can you talk a little bit about that time in the late 80s and early 90s which was the script the spec script boom, which I mean in today's world is just unheard of. I mean yet there still are million dollar scripts and they are still spec scripts they get bought but people don't understand even I was even because I was I was just coming into the business going to film school but you would read about obviously Shane Black kind of crack but and Joe Lester house those guys just busted the door open for like 234 5 million baht

Diane Drake 14:12
Kind of out of control to be honest, but I mean it's sad to me that there was a time that to be original commanded a premium. Right? That's pretty much the last thing they want. You know, that particularly the studio's I mean, it's, it's just not what it's about at this point is about intellectual property. It's about anything that's already been successful as something else. And they're not in the business of making the sort of movies I used to write, you know, and I used to go see, to be honest, that my favorite kind of movies, you know, the movies like Jim Brooks made, you know, those kind of that's not what they do anymore. They don't want to spend 50 million to make 150 million, you know, they want to spend 300 million and make a billion. And it's it's unfortunate, you know, and I mean, there's work to be out there, but it's pretty much to work on that to work on intellectual property. You know, you write an original so you can get a job writing something that's already been something else, I think. I will say, you know, so I'm sure you know, and probably your listeners know, there's kind of two businesses now there's a studio model, which again, is 300 million to make a billion franchise merchandising, you know, tentpole mostly superheroes, right. Right. handful of people, like Judd Apatow, who are sort of a brand unto themselves that can kind of get away with that little middle ground movie,

Alex Ferrari 15:33
Tyler Perry and those kind of guys. Yeah, there's there's a handful, but there's a

Diane Drake 15:37
franchise, you know what I mean, like kind of its franchise, I mean, appetite, you could almost say it's French. It's not quite, you know, but, um, but there are brands, let's put it that way.

Alex Ferrari 15:47
Blum house and things like,

Diane Drake 15:48
I mean, when I when I wrote on the you, I mean, I had had I sold, I hadn't sold anything, I had written one script. And I got me an agent, very small agent. And he got me one meeting, and I got the job, which is miraculous to me in hindsight to you know, to destroy a little treatment. So it's 25 grand, it got me in the right scale at the time got me insurance bought me the year to write only you. But But so I was nobody is my point. And yet, my agent, and my agent was coming off a hot sale, he had just sold the script for like half a million dollars. So he was kind of an even though it's a smaller agency. He was kind of a name at that point. But still, Julia Roberts agent wanted only you for her. And Demi Moore wanted it. I mean, you could not get two stars. Equivalent caliber. Now, if you were nobody, you know, and get your script read in a day or two. That's how it used to be. That's how much that's how big a market there was. And how much demand there was for original material. saying, Yeah, I'm such changed. I'm so sorry to say but but and this doesn't necessarily affect me, at least not yet. But TV streaming on

Alex Ferrari 16:59
Netflix. I mean, Netflix is now the 800 pound gorilla, and they're doing things that, you know, I mean, it's amazing. They came in and just completely changed the game.

Diane Drake 17:09
They changed the game. And so you know, now there's Amazon. I just I Yeah, exactly. I just taught an advanced class for UCLA, and a manager came in to speak, it was lovely, and she was talking about Disney plus, and you know, that there's gonna be that and that's a lot of intellectual property, too. But apparently, they're looking to make some originals as well, which kind of shocked me. And in that 40 $50 million range, which kind of almost no one's doing, although somebody was telling me what Netflix is doing that day. Netflix is doing everything. But um,

Alex Ferrari 17:39
I was looking at I still always remember that film that just came out this last Christmas, which was the Kurt Russell Santa Claus movie. That's right. That was direct. Yeah, Santa Claus, whatever, I forgot the name of it. But it was it chronicles of Santa Claus, or whatever it was. But regardless, we'll see it every year for the rest of our lives now. But it was directed by Chris Columbus. And that was easily $150 million. Film.

Diane Drake 18:03
Oh, to make it? Yeah, I

Alex Ferrari 18:05
You do a lot of visual effects in that. I mean, it's over 100. It's over 100. And you still got Kurt Russell, who's

Diane Drake 18:13
I think it was we should look it up? I know, it was.

Alex Ferrari 18:17
But regardless, it could have been released theatrically without question, it would have probably made 250 million it would have been in

Diane Drake 18:22
the olden days. I'll tell you something about a Christmas movie, though. I'll tell you something. I wrote a Christmas movie with a partner a few years ago. And because I thought, you know, let me just do intellectual property. Right, like Santa it. You know, it's public domain. It's intellectual property. Everybody knows the story. So a partner and I wrote like a Santa Claus origin story, you know, and basically like, how he met Mrs. Claus how the reindeer learn to fly. Yeah, like, it's kind of right, fun. And I felt like we haven't seen this. And I'm even seeing a new Santa Claus. You know, even friends who were in the business like, Oh, that's really fun, you know. And it was basically the idea that he started off as a con man and a cat burglar. And that's why he was so good at breaking into places genius. And so you got this great character arc. And you know, you have fun with like, how all these things came to be. So I thought that seemed pretty marketable. And I sent it to an agent who said, who I could tell between us had not even read it. And I can tell it because it starts with Santa as a little kid, but it's only for like the first five or so pages. And then you cut to him as an adult, not as an old man, but as an adult. And he's like, Well, you can't do Santa as a kid. And so I had to kind of be like, not rude and saying, Well, he's really not, you know, it's just the first few pages and, you know, and then he said, and this was the critical thing. This was a few years ago now. But he said, Well, you can't you can't do a Santa Claus movie anyway, because they don't celebrate Christmas in China. Wow. Wow. Really? Yeah. There you have it. That's the extent to which the money and the marketplace is dictating what gets made. Because when I was first in the business, global market us You know, two thirds foreign was 1/3. And now that's reversed. And it's two thirds us is 1/3. And of that two thirds, a lot of that's China. And a lot of that is action. Um, so and I thought to myself, I thought, well, I guess that's why we haven't seen another Christmas movie on the big screen then it since elf. I couldn't see him since he no longer that was that was

Alex Ferrari 20:26
Early 2000s, wasn't it?

Diane Drake 20:28
I guess John Fabro wanted to make Elf 2 they would be happy to let him but aside from that, I don't think we'll see it. And so it was so interesting to see that Christmas Chronicles thing. My partner and I even talked about it about dusting ours off. But honestly, it needs more work. Like,

Alex Ferrari 20:47
If we go down Christmas movies, then, you know, the Disney Channel Hallmark has those things so, so on lock on those low budget.

Diane Drake 20:54
But But getting back to what we how this, what kind of kicked us off was you know, we had flying reindeer and stuff. So that was the other thing was like It couldn't be made cheaply, we thought because you were going to have to have those visual effects you were going to have to have, you know, it was not a cheap movie to make. So yeah, that was kind of interesting. But it was funny too, because both my movies only that have been released only what we want had been remade in China with Chinese stars. So I kind of felt like but they liked me in China, I think it would have shot.

Alex Ferrari 21:28
It's fascinating, fascinating. The, the way the marketplace has changed so much. And then such a kind of ignorant comment by that agent is like, Oh, they don't celebrate Christmas in China. If you could just that's such a Hollywood la thing to say

Diane Drake 21:44
Marketing driven right now, but here's the thing, here's the reality. He's got his finger more in the marketplace than I do. He knows what buyers are looking for. One assumes Now obviously, again, nobody knows anything and all that. I mean, I yeah, I did feel it was dismissive. And I did feel that like, you know, it was like, really? And yet, when I stopped to think about it, I thought well, and maybe that's why we haven't had enough because it used to be like every few years, you get a new Christmas movie. I mean, all those Tim Allen movies at home, you know, and we haven't seen it. We haven't seen a big family action comedy Christmas. Maybe that's why Christmas Chronicles was huge deal. I think, you know, because and people, you know, Kurt Russell, people who used to go to those movies when they were younger, and now they've got kids or grandkids or whatever, you know, and they remember him and it was kind of genius casting that way

Alex Ferrari 22:35
They credit Chris Columbus is no slouch as a director.

Diane Drake 22:39
We see MCs right? But it's so interesting that of course, it was not released theatrically. Like they didn't sell that theatrically.

Alex Ferrari 22:44
No, they could have easily if that would have been released, it would have easily made a couple 100 million to 300 million

Diane Drake 22:49
access the I think Well, you're right, maybe right. But I think the prevailing wisdom was, you know, and that's why it was Netflix. And I don't think it costs as much as you think

Alex Ferrari 23:00
I think you might be right. And I think it's at least 80 Because just to get Kurt Russell and Chris Chris out of bed, it's gonna cost a couple bucks. I don't, I don't know we will have to, after this

Diane Drake 23:12
interview, after this interview be interesting to see we should look that up.

Alex Ferrari 23:15
After this interview, I will look on that. Now, you also said you work for Sydney Pollack, who is obviously a legendary director. And I'm a huge fan of not only him as an actor, as a director, but also him as an actor, is you know him and Eyes Wide Shut. I love his stories with Stanley and all that kind of stuff. What was it like working for a legend like that? What did you learn from him?

Diane Drake 23:37
Um, gosh, well, first of all, sadly, he's no longer with us. But, um, he was difficult and extremely demanding. But because he was extremely demanding of himself, you know, and, and driven, you know, and, and kind of brilliant. I mean, he really was one of the smartest people I've ever met. He could be very charming. He started as an actor. And he could be not very nice, you know, he could be really, really tough. But I learned so much work in there. And I don't, I really don't think I would ever become a writer had I not worked there. You know, it was a combination of what I learned. And also the fact that I felt like, I'd reached the end of the road there and I couldn't I'll get into that if you'd like. It wasn't him but someone else I was working with, they're just kind of made my life a living hell, and I had to get out and so I, you know, that sort of a gun was put to my head and I was like, Well, you know, if you know so much, why don't you see what you can do. But, um, but it was great. I mean, to watch him work with writers and he was so articulate and he was so insightful and you know, yeah, they don't really make them like that.

Alex Ferrari 24:54
If they broke the mold with Sydney without question, and and just to go back to only you for a second Sorry,

Diane Drake 25:00
I'm sorry. So the guy said he was doing like in Tootsie, and husbands and wives, you know, and you know, he didn't want to be in touch. He didn't want to play that part. Right? That was Dustin Hoffman, who insisted.

Alex Ferrari 25:14
He was great at it. And just, and just to go back to only you for one second, that script was the first script you sold, and it was a million dollar buy if I'm not mistaken.

Diane Drake 25:23
It was. It was crazy. I mean, God, it, it was really nice. It was a million dollars up front. It wasn't even like if we make the movie. You know, it was it was a million dollars. Um, and like I said, I think largely because at that moment, at that little tiny window in time, we had Julia Roberts potentially interested in to me more interested. And then Norman came on shortly thereafter, I think he came on after the deal was closed. But um, yeah, I mean, you know, it was just again, it was a different time, there was a lot of competition for it, you know, the stars aligned in my favor. And, yeah, it was kind of surreal. And I remember I was so like, just praying that I could sell it at all that I could get, like, Writers Guild minimum or something, you know, so that I can continue to be a writer. I don't know. Because I didn't know what else was gonna do. At that point. I didn't think I could go back to work in development. I just had kind of burnout on that. And I just thought, I mean, I'm so yeah, and it happened so fast, you know, because this, there's a saying in Hollywood, good news travels fast. And I think it's still largely true, maybe not quite as true as it was then. But back in those days, it was like, you know, you get all this heat and, you know, things would happen or not. And so it was really like less than a week from the time it went out to closing that deal.

Alex Ferrari 26:53
Now, what is it? What is it like cuz I want, you know, writers listening, you know, you get a million dollar deal, which obviously, is a lottery ticket. I mean, it does not happen often. What happens to you on your career afterwards? Like, I know, it gives you a career, obviously. But what are the steps? Like, what are the meetings you're taking? What are the assignments you're picking up? So people understand? Like, if it just so we can live vicariously through you? What it's like, after a sale like that?

Diane Drake 27:24
We'll learn from my mistakes. Oh, okay. I did some things, right. And I did some things that probably I might have done better, or definitely, um, so I obviously kind of came out of nowhere and, and had a lot of meetings, and had a lot of things thrown at me. But, you know, I really was a new writer. I mean, it was my second script. And I'd written the first one while I still working for Sydney, like it three, in three months at night. It was a talking animal movie. only took me about a year. So, uh, you know, I at that point, for better or worse, I felt like, well, I kind of want to work on stuff that I want to work on. You know what I mean? Like, that sort of means something to me. So I probably in hindsight, had I been totally mercenary should have just stacked up assignments to the just like taking whatever came my way. And, you know, done the best I could and taken the money and run. But hopeless romantic ideal is that I am, I just didn't really feel like I could do that. I didn't know where I would pull it from, you know, I didn't even know how I could do like, a not about a bad job on something if I didn't relate to it in some way. So there was actually only one project in that time. I took meetings for about a year. You know, I was I actually went to Italy, while the movie I worked on only for a while. And it was in Italy for a little while shooting. And then I came back and you know, it was doing the meeting thing. And there was only one project that I really wanted. And actually, Meg Ryan was attached to it. And she had a deal at Fox and I didn't really have what they call a quote because I hadn't worked on assignment. So I just had, like, you know, I have a million dollar sale. So my agent asked for a lot of money, which was fine. But they didn't want to pay it. And it was a movie, pretty much starring all women. Interestingly, in hindsight, and all the people involved were women like it was it was it was actually Rosanna Arquette it was a story of hers. And Meg was gonna play Rosanna Rosanna was gonna play her own best friend. And it was complicated. But anyway, um, so we came down in price three times, like we came in at a certain level and fox came back really low, and then we came down and buckskin back really low, and then we came down and bucks came back really late. So three times they never came up a dime. And to me what that meant was, they're never going to make this movie. They don't want this movie. And maybe I'm wrong about that. Maybe I misread it, but that was my interpretation that they were placating Meg. They weren't gonna tell her no, she had to deal with the studio. But they they had no interest in making this. And because I had been so fortunate as to not only sell a script for a million dollars, but actually have it go into production. I kind of thought, Why do I want to sign on for something that I know they're not excited about? To begin with? Right? And that was when I walked away and thought, well, you know, you did Okay, last time, right? In your own idea. So why don't you come up with something else? Oh, the ego? Yeah, wow. But here's what happened. So I gave an if I could only do this now, if only but at the time, I was younger, then I said, Alright, you got a week to come up with something. And that was when I came up with what women want.

Alex Ferrari 30:42
Wow. And, and that is a great segue into what women want, which is obviously was a huge hit with starring Mel Gibson, pre Mel Gibson. And you know, Mel Gibson, pre Mel Gibson, and, and the lovely, incomparable Helen Hunt, who's amazing in the film, and I remember watching that film 1000 times I love that movie. And but there was a bit of drama with that movie wasn't there for you.

Diane Drake 31:11
There's a lot of drama with that movie that I am still technically not at liberty to discuss. But let me just say it was very bittersweet. It is very agonizing. Honestly,

Alex Ferrari 31:23
it was you have a story credit, you have a story credit on

Diane Drake 31:25
that. I have a story credit. And I wrote the original script for that movie, and there's no way that should have happened. There is no way by Writers Guild rules. Uh huh. That that should have happened. And that's all I'm gonna say for now. But that was a huge, huge battle in my life. And yeah, I, you know, I, I always say to people, I'm really trying not to do this anymore. But I always say to people when

Alex Ferrari 31:53
I want to say anyway, but but I'm gonna say it anyway, I don't say this.

Diane Drake 31:58
I say I will never get over it. And I will never get over it. But I have to start, I just have to tell myself, I'm bigger than that. You know, but I the reason it's particularly fresh right now is I just relived it all, because it just got remade, right. So I had to deal with the Writers Guild again, and I had to deal with the credit again, and I had to deal with what was done to me on that movie again. And what was done to me was, you know, brutal, it was not right. And I'm not the only writer in Hollywood to have had this experience. I know that I did get paid, I got paid very well, for my torture. And the movie got me, you know, and it was a huge hit. And all that's to the good, but um, yeah, I have a few bones to pick with a few people, including the Writers Guild.

Alex Ferrari 32:43
And, you know, and if it makes you feel any better, I also had on the show, Paul Castro, I don't sure if you know who Paul Castro is he used to use he taught over at the UCLA Extension program for almost 10 years as well. He wrote August Rush. And he wrote the original screenplay, and the original story. And he had the exact same thing happened to him. And he does, I mean, he did get the store credit, and he has a store credit, but another bigger, the producer brought in a bigger screenwriters name, and then they, he wanted to take credit. And then it was a Writers Guild battle. And it does happen, it does happen, you know, unless you are unless you are an 800 pound gorilla. You know, that's not happened.

Diane Drake 33:24
You know, that's the thing. I mean, after I sold on the EU, I didn't teach anything. I didn't do the kind of thing I'm doing now. But every once a while, I get asked to speak somewhere, you know, and I'd always get the question like, how do you protect your material? And I would always say, Listen, you know, I mean, obviously, at the time, I was in The Guild, I had an agent, I had a lawyer, but still, you know, it's like, you can register your stuff with the guild, even if you're not in the guild, like $25 You can register it with the US Copyright Office. And my response was always, it's just easier for them to pay you than to steal it from you, really. And then what women want happened to me. So yeah, it's, uh, there's, you know, there's only so much you can do and,

Alex Ferrari 34:13
you know, when you go up against when you go up against a studio when you go up against bigger, you know, bigger name, you know, like, you know, for lack of a better term, like, you know, this doesn't happen to Aaron Sorkin or Shane Black you know, yeah, Quinn Tarantino

Diane Drake 34:26
would have not I think I mean, listen, read William Goldman. I mean, they all have their horror stories, even people very top you know, it's just, it's just differently, but, um, yeah, I will say I feel like and I always have to, like temper this. Like, I've been very fortunate. You know, I was fortunate that it sold I was fortunate that it got made. I was fortunate. I got paid. I had a really good attorney. I'm not good enough as it turned out. But, but you know, I really do fault. The writer skill a lot on this And, you know, I'm not the first writer to do that. And you know, they do their best. But, um,

Alex Ferrari 35:07
it's politics. It's Politics, Politics, Politics.

Diane Drake 35:11
It's just the reality, you know, and I had the guilt exists. And I appreciate, you know, the residuals and all that. And, but, yeah, they're, they're not immune. They're not, you

Alex Ferrari 35:21
know, it's politics. And I think that's something that they don't teach in film schools and stuff, they don't understand any new screenwriters coming up, don't understand that. Look, there's there are rules that everyone says there are. And then there's rules that nobody tells you there are until you get slapped across the face with those new rules. And you are a perfect example. And Paul's a perfect example of that, that things happen, especially when egos get involved, especially when big names get involved. And a lot of times are like, well, who's that? Well, that's an app, let's just crush that and move that out of the way. It does happen. It does happen. It's unfortunately, it

Diane Drake 35:55
does happen. And it happens far too often. I mean, you know, compared to a lot of what people go through, you know, at least my name is on it, and at least

Alex Ferrari 36:04
Absolutely, you actually have one of those success stories.

Diane Drake 36:07
Having said that, I mean, you know, that it's just, you know, it's funny, I'll do a little segue here. So one of the things I talk about, and it's only kind of recently come to me, you know, it's interesting teaching, because when you're writing, it's, you know, I assume it's like somebody who's a good tennis player or whatever, it's intuitive, right? They've been doing it so long. And then when you teach it, you have to really break it down. You're trying to explain to somebody else, you know, how it works. And so I like teaching because you always kind of get new insights for as long as I've been at this I'm still like learning stuff myself, you know, there's never ending. But one of the things I've recently kind of concluded, or at least, you know, contemplated is that I really do believe that in a way stories are about justice. Because I think everyone feels like an underdog and everybody recognizes that life is not fair. It's just not and yet And yet there's something really deep in us like primal almost Lee almost that wants to believe it is that you know, is so like, we just like expect it's going to be but of course it's not. And that's part of the function story, sir. Right? Because we want to see people get what they deserve. We want to see the hero get what he deserves. We want to believe there's justice in the world. We want to believe, you know, we want to see the villain get what he deserves. And you know, and that leads to the whole Zeitgeist thing about superheroes now, because I think everybody feels so powerless. But you know

Alex Ferrari 37:38
what I mean? I always use this as an analogy, because what you just said is a perfect analogy for arguably my favorite film of all time Shawshank Redemption. Yeah, you saw shank redemption. I always people like what is about that movie that, you know, I saw that movie when I was 20 something where I literally probably still thought John Claude Van Damme was a greatest actor of all time. So there wasn't a sophistication there to see a good story but yet even my high school and college friends were liking that movie. Like, what is about that story? Like, on paper? It's a horrible title. It's like not right horrible worse, worse marketing worse marketing campaign ever. I mean, it's about you know, in the middle, it just there's nothing appealing from on the surface about that film. But yet I always tell people that I think it's I think people connect with it so much because it's an analogy for life where you are Andy do friend and you feel like you your your life sometimes might feel like you're in prison or that it's not fair. And then you get beaten constantly for 20 years, and then you finally escaped and assistance cathartic thing? Yeah. So that's why I just thought of that when you were saying that because it was, I feel it's very much what do you think about the damage? I'm assuming you like that? If not, you're dead inside. And I

Diane Drake 38:53
haven't seen as many times as you have. I remembered I remember very fondly. But you're absolutely right, that it is a lot of people's favorite movie. Like, you know, if you're on Twitter, and people name things, that movie comes up a lot. So it really did strike a chord with people. And and yeah, getting back to what I was saying. I mean, I think the most powerful people in the world think of themselves as underdogs. You know, it's all relative right? Here. I think they identify with the underdog. And it's funny, you know, that, how I am and I don't know who it's by, I should know, but I'm into each life some ramus fall, you know, that saying, okay, so I only just recently came across the line that precedes that, which I think is really lovely, which is by fate is the common fate of all into each life summary as well. That's awesome. Like, you're not going to be exempt, you're not going to be exempt and it's going to suck you know, and so we all have our our crosses to bear so to speak. So yeah, I do think stories really speak to that in the desire to believe there's some I mean, you know, we look at we build temples to justice, Supreme Court, whatever we want to believe that that matters, even though so often, it seems not to

Alex Ferrari 40:04
what is the what is the great fear that you had to overcome to finally be able to put your fingers on that typewriter or on that computer or on that on that computer to actually start writing and put yourself out there as a writer, because I know a lot of people listening are either just starting out, and they just have these. I'm a very big mindset guy. So like, it's all about your mindset and what beliefs you have about yourself and the confidence that you spoke about? And what was that thing that you finally, what was the dragon that you slayed to get to where you were,

Diane Drake 40:35
um, you know, I don't know if I can quite put my finger on the fear, although, like I said, just sort of the general umbrella of lack of confidence, which I think stays with you, you know, I just think stays with writers period, and probably most creative people. And, and I but I do remember telling myself that I needed to accept the fact that I was not going to probably be able to write to a level that I would really respect, right, because even though my critical faculties have been pretty well honed, I was just beginning as a writer. So you know, cut yourself a little bit of slack there, right? You know, you haven't been doing this, as long as you've been watching movies, you know, even people who don't do development for a living, don't analyze material for a living, you still do it right, as a viewer, an audience member, whatever. So you've consumed a lot, but you haven't produced much chances are, you know, depending on where you are in your life, and what else you've done, in terms of creative writing, so there was that. And then there was also an again, this is a little bit more of a function of the fact that it was such a great time to sell originals. But and what I was saying earlier about, you know, looking around and seeing people selling stuff and thinking, Well, I know as much as they do, or you know, so I really didn't kind of start thinking, Well, why not me? Why not? You know, I been at this, you know, so I think it's a combination of, again, allowing yourself to be a beginner in a way and at the same time doing your homework, so that you have something to back it up. Right that you have educated yourself about the craft. And that's one of my pet peeves, I have to say is that I think people, a lot of people by virtue of the fact that they've seen a lot of movies, I think it's probably it's not that hard to write one, right. But the analogy I always use is like, well, I've driven a lot of cars, but I wouldn't attempt to build one without investigating how an engine works and aerodynamics and those things, right. So and it's also the function of the fact that like, not everybody thinks they can play a musical instrument, but everybody can type. Everybody can, you know, they know the alphabet, they got a computer. So you know, but there's a little more to it than that. So yeah, you have to do your homework, too.

Alex Ferrari 42:44
Now what? So we've, we've gone down the rabbit hole of your career, and actually just kind of talked all about the business of screenwriting, which is fantastic. And I think it's great, great information that doesn't get talked about often. But let's talk a little bit about the craft. Just a little bit about the craft. What are some of the most common mistakes or issues you see in first time? screenplays.

Diane Drake 43:08
Okay, so I, I'll be a little plug for myself here. I recently not that raised by now. But a few years ago, wrote a book called get your story straight about writing screenplay. And it grew out of my teaching for UCLA. And as I was saying earlier, in terms of like, trying to figure out how to teach it. What I wound up doing, you know, what sort of happened was, I found myself putting a lot of emphasis on structure. And I know people have a problem with that. Sometimes they think of it as formulaic or whatever, but it's really not sorry about the sirens.

Alex Ferrari 43:44
Oh, good. So good. I'm assuming you're in LA. So it's okay. Yes.

Diane Drake 43:50
Yeah. But, um, so I think that's it, I think a lot of times, you know, because the screenplay, it's a marathon and you spent 120 pages now it's maybe 100 to 110. But that's still a lot, right. And it's very easy to get lost on that sea of possibilities and, and write yourself into a corner to mix my metaphors. And I think, again, getting back to what I was saying about justice and sort of how it's primal. I think that story structures like I, I didn't invent it, you know, this was Aristotle, this is beginning middle. And this goes way back. And again, I think is sort of primal. It's kind of like you, you may not know a lot about music, but you can tell if something doesn't sound right. If it's out of tune or whatever, right. You might not be able to put your finger on why it's the same thing. It's like, we almost have this intuitive sense of like how things ought to be building or moving forward or shifting, you know, as the story progresses. And I think structure is something that's often kind of invisible to the average person. They don't they're not conscious of it, but they are unconsciously aware of it, you know what I mean? And that's and so Those are the problems I see most often, you know that people are structural, yeah, they're structural, you know, it's like it, you and that everything needs to have a purpose, right? It's not just random chitchat, it's not, you know, you need to be building, these seems to be telling you something that you didn't already know. And they need to be taking you in a specific direction, and you probably better have a pretty good idea of where it is you want to wind up before you start, if you're going to stand any chance of getting there.

Alex Ferrari 45:28
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now, back to the show.

Diane Drake 45:39
So and I also always, you know, the caveat to that is, you know, there are movies that don't follow those, I don't even like to call rules, principles, maybe, you know, but if you want to do that, well, fantastic, you know, then, but it, you'll be doing it if you if you educate yourself about it, you'll be doing it consciously, you'll be breaking those rules consciously, instead of you just don't know any better. And you're just kind of bound, right? Like Charlie Kaufman can

Alex Ferrari 46:06
do that. Right. But very much so.

Diane Drake 46:10
But that's a high wire act, you know, I mean, don't try that at home. That is that is somebody who's at the very top of their craft, and very unique sensibility and all that. For the most part, the vast, vast majority of critically and commercially successful films hit those beats, they just do. And it's funny, because even movies that you think of as being, or I think a lot of people think of as being novel and indie or whatever. You'd be amazed how much they fulfill that. I just, just recently, we screened Little Miss Sunshine. And I had them do a worksheet on it, like, you know, what's the inciting? What's the opening image, you know, opening image of that movie, it's so on target, it's all sitting there watching a pageant, and it's reflected in her glasses. I mean, it's so perfect, and she's acting it out. So you instantly know what that movie is about, or you know, you don't know. But in hindsight, like, that's what that movie was about. And all those beats that inciting incident in the first plot point, and you know, the midpoint, and he's just hitting those marks in in really inventive and character driven ways. So

Alex Ferrari 47:16
very much. So one thing I wanted to ask you as well, what do what does the scene always have to have in it? Like, what are the elements in the scene? Because you're right, so many times people are just like, so how are you doing? I'm doing fine. How is that going? And they like, just, it's like, no, that's that way we watch a movie to watch real life. That's called a documentary. What should a scene do? And what elements should be in every scene in your script?

Diane Drake 47:39
God, I wish I knew. But I will say this, you know, I mean, dramas conflict, right? Somebody should be one, tell me she wants something, you know, and they probably should know. And I wouldn't say always, but oftentimes, we going up against somebody else who, you know, doesn't want them to have it. Right. That's kind of how you feel it. But I think, you know, some scenes are more character oriented, and they're telling you something more about the person, particularly in the first act, you know, when you're getting the lay of the land. You know, some scenes are really just kind of moving the plot along, we know who these people are, by now, you know, you want to be consistent with who they are. But this is What's tricky about it, right? Because you can't really totally boil it down to a formula, that it's the prototype every time out, right. And that's why even people like Sydney, Pollack, you know, have their hits and their misses, you know, it's just, they're there. It's intangible in a way, you know, but, um, in general, you want to be moving things forward, you don't want to be repeating yourself, and you want the story to be building as you go. And you want there to be something at stake that people care about, or understand at least what it means to the protagonist, and that you care about whether or not they get it, because if you don't care, then the whole thing is moot. Right? Right. That's kind of fundamental.

Alex Ferrari 49:01
So then what film in your opinion has, as an example, like a perfect setup, structurally speaking, like just like, great,

Diane Drake 49:09
you know, there's quite a number of them because I, I know this because I teach them in my class. And I don't have anything that's really brand new. But you know, I try to get to newer things, but tipsy is genius. But you know, 10 Seems like I don't know, eight writers on that. Right? I mean, credited it's not but like Elaine May was uncredited on that, you know, Larry Gelbart was on that Marsha school, who was the guy who came up with it with Dustin. You know, and then there were at least three or four others. I wasn't working for Sydney at the time. But you know, I'm aware at least three brothers that you know, he worked with plus Sydney, who never took a writing credit, but worked very closely, you know, with people developing scripts. So that's how hard it is. Right? That's that this is how challenging this craft is. You got all those people at the top of their game and it took them years That thing did not happen overnight. I think that thing was in development at least three or four years before. And when they first pitched it to Sydney when Dustin and I guess my Cisco versus Sydney, he's like, you know, and he had not done comedy right. In fact, I think that's his only comedy. And it's really a shame because it's such genius, but he felt like, you know, I don't really do farce, and it's great. I would go see it. You know, Blake Edwards did it, I go see it. But I don't know how I don't know a way into it. You know, a guy putting on a dress. And apparently, in one of those meetings, somebody said something about, you know, how it makes a man out of my goal, like being a woman, man. And that was what Sydney latched on to thematic, Lee, that was interesting,

Alex Ferrari 50:43
then I'm assuming that is a that's a difficult pitch like that, at that time in history as well. It must have been a difficult pitch,

Diane Drake 50:51
Dustin, and he was pretty big star. But, um, and he really wanted to make it and he really wanted to play it. You know, there was something about playing that character he really sunk his teeth into. But that was the thing that made it interesting for sending this was sort of the larger thematic question that he could explore there. But Toy Story is also master class and structure.

Alex Ferrari 51:14
Pretty much almost every one of their movies is a masterclasses structure. I mean, you could argue that all of them,

Diane Drake 51:21
I'm going to be unpopular here and say that I'm not as big a fan of the Pixar movies as I used to be, because this is just me. I don't think they're as funny as they used to be. I think they've gotten very sentimental. And yeah, and, and I missed the wit, you know, and I don't know if that's just a function that most of the guys and they are guys, almost all guys, and maybe there's some women now, but who made the bulk of those movies have gotten older. I don't know whether it's just easier and safer. commercially speaking, you know, it is easier, I think, to sort of push those sentimental buttons than it is to be genuinely witty and inspired. Especially when you're kind of working on almost like Shakespearean level where you're aiming at kids and adults and everybody in between. But I just think the original Toy Story is genius. And, and so funny and, and, and ultimately, so touching. But I mean, the idea that buzz has this existential crisis when he realized he was not a Space Ranger. I mean, now, right? There was best things ever in a movie. And it's fantastic too, because it's fantastic character arc, because it's that's his epiphany. That's the moment that they're able to escape sins and you see the light go on in his eyes. And he finally realizes, you know, it's okay not to be a space ranger, you know, he's cool with being Andy's toy.

Alex Ferrari 52:46
isn't a great in the sequel, where he actually runs into another Buzz Lightyear who still has that same thing. He's like, Oh, you silly, silly, man.

Diane Drake 52:56
I mean, yeah. The King's Speech is another one that really hits those marks sideways really hits those marks. A lot of them you'd be surprised so you can any really, in my opinion, pretty much any really successful commercially critically, you know, solid movie, you can go through that checklist and identify for yourself those beats again, unless it's something very different. Like like Charlie Kaufman or

Alex Ferrari 53:24
you know, Tarantino Tarantino stuff.

Diane Drake 53:26
Yes, exactly. We've got that loopy structure and stuff, you know, which is genius, too. But I think even in that, you know, you can identify Inciting Incidents and stuff. Yeah, that's, that's yeah,

Alex Ferrari 53:37
you break Pulp Fiction down, and it follows the path, but it's it's done that

Diane Drake 53:42
The way. It's, yeah, it's so put around in time that way, and like 500 Days of Summer, or Yeah, yeah, they're hitting those marks, but they're doing it in a way that like, it's like, really,

Alex Ferrari 53:53
it hurts the brain. It hurts the brain to think about how he, he was able to structure that up. No, I wanted to touch about because you touched upon this earlier superhero films. It's obviously so pervasive right now in our culture. Um, look, I have a Yoda sitting behind me. I have some superhero statues in the back. I'm a huge superhero fan is my generation. I was raised with comic books and stuff. So I love it. But it is now a thing that now studios every, like, if you were I remember, like 89 When Batman showed up that Tim burns Batman, everyone was like, holy cow, a superhero movie that was not Superman, circa 1977. Now, every week, there's a new $300 million movie. What is it about the superhero genre, which Spielberg also said that will eventually go out like the Westerns? I don't know when it'll go out but waiting. It's gonna it's gonna be probably another 30 or 40 years. I mean, they're gonna they have 40 or 50 years of these characters still going and then they can reboot it and as long as people keep showing up, they're gonna keep going, but what is it about that genre? What is it about? What's your opinion on the genre? And in better and better question is like, is there anything that could be done with screenwriters coming up in this genre?

Diane Drake 55:12
You know, I am not the person to ask because I really, I all admit that upfront, I'm just I'm, I, I've tried, I really have tried design. No, that's what the kids are saying. You know what I mean? I like I know, of course, I'm well aware of how popular these things are. But they just make my eyes glaze over.

Alex Ferrari 55:30
I have a Nolan How about Nolan's work?

Diane Drake 55:34
Christopher Nolan. Yes.

Alex Ferrari 55:35
Like the Dark Knight?

Diane Drake 55:37
I haven't seen it. I'll confess. So I'll say this. I love Iron Man. Okay. It's Robert. And because it's John Pharaoh, and I love John. I think John Piper was fantastic. So there's wit in that movie. I think that's just for me. I just, I like, things that make me laugh. And I'm bored by watching an accident sequence that goes on for 20 minutes. I mean, how many times can you watch things blow up? How many times can you watch, you know, giant fingers punch each other? I just entertaining. I wish I did. Because clearly there's there's money to be made, you know, and I feel a little left out in the cold at this point. But I it just they don't entertain me. I never read comic books. I'm not interested. I think the original Superman is brilliant. Because again, it's character, right? There's width, and there's romance, and there's character. And there's tongue in cheek, you know, and maybe some of these movies have that. And I've missed the ones that do. But I'm like you said There's a new one every week. And i just i i It's not my thing.

Alex Ferrari 56:44
The one thing the only movie I will suggest you do. Only one I would say you watch is the Dark Knight. It is arguably the godfather of of superhero movies. And if you take the superhero element out of it is a basically an amazing heist film, just a heist film mixed with a crime drama thriller. If you take it because a lot of these you you take the suit off. It's done. Right, right. Christopher Nolan does such a good job that and that's the second one. Not the first. The first one's great. And the third one is good. But the second one is, if that's the reason why we have 10 That's why we have 10 Oscar nominees. And because of because of that movie, right?

Diane Drake 57:23
Right,

Alex Ferrari 57:23
it was so good.

Diane Drake 57:25
Well, and this is not superhero, but um, you know, it's not like I don't like if anybody cares. Really, right. Like, I'm like, you know, darker movies. Like, really a movie that I love, actually that I was also just pointing out to my students because the final battle in it is aliens. The second one simply ever did, which I just think is genius. You know, it's so suspenseful. But again, great characters. You know, Paul riser is so scary in that movie. Like you can't believe he's that bad a villain and he's frightening

Alex Ferrari 58:01
and normal looking. But is normal looking. That's the thing the same, right?

Diane Drake 58:05
Whoa. And we're used to seeing him in comedy. And then again, it's gonna be incredible. And oh, my God, oh, Caxton. I know.

Alex Ferrari 58:21
Man, and I would argue and I know, I might get crap for this on people listening. But I'm like, it honestly hasn't been a James Cameron film that he's made really, that I don't like, I think they all have. I mean, he's just one of the, like, the abyss, I thought was,

Diane Drake 58:36
I actually never saw any of this. I was not a big fan of Avatar. In fact, I felt like Avatar was a bit of a rip off of aliens. Oh, no,

Alex Ferrari 58:43
Avatar was a ripoff of FernGully it was a ripoff of a billion other things. But it hits those he was able to hit those buttons. So yeah, everyone was a bull's eye. Everyone was a bull's eye. And then you mix that in with insane technology. Insane,

Diane Drake 58:59
respectable. Exactly. And I clearly that's part of its success. And probably a lot of people who loved avatar never saw aliens, you know, I didn't realize the extent to which, you know, he was kind of ripping himself off. But um, I just and I also think, you know, aliens had wit, I mean, it just so you know, if you can combine all those things, it's fantastic. But to me, I just feel like so much of the superhero movies are the ones I've seen. And again, I haven't seen very many, but the ones I've seen and even wonder woman like I heard so much about Wonder Woman and of course I wanted to, you know, applaud it. It wasn't that great. I'm sorry. It really wasn't I was expecting Superman and maybe the bar was too high. But in terms of like that relationship between her and I can't even remember the guy now. I just really expected more of it. It looked great. She looked great. You know, but that whole third act is same old same old you know, it just I I don't know I mean a Listen, I'm not an easy person to go see movies with

Alex Ferrari 1:00:00
Fair enough, fair enough? No, confess,

Diane Drake 1:00:02
whatever you do your that was more critical.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:06
So what?

Diane Drake 1:00:07
Let me just say, I will say this, when something's really good, in my humble opinion, I appreciate it so much. Because I know how hard it is. I really do

Alex Ferrari 1:00:16
I agree when I say like, I saw green book, and I was just like, well, that's just great. I mean, it was just so well, the chemists literally two guys in a car. And it just held you and it was wonderful performances, wonderful writing wonderful directing. It was just hitting every I don't know if it was best picture. But it was still are arguably one of the best films I saw this last year. But yeah, when you find it when you see it, if it keeps me up past my bedtime, that means it's a good movie

Diane Drake 1:00:48
See it again, because you want to see how they did what they did. You know, that's something for what it's worth, I really recommend to your listeners and writers is, if there's something you really like, watch it and read it and watch it and read it over and over and over. I feel like it seeps into you the rhythms of it. You know, even if you feel like you know it forwards and backwards, if you can still learn from it and really dissect how they're doing what they're doing. Look at how it looks on the page, look at how you know, it hasn't made it to the screen, that form has been changed that kind of thing. Just really do the forensics.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:25
Yeah. And yeah, of course I've been I've worked in a video store. So I saw 1000s and 1000s of movies. And that's how I kind of got started in my business just watching. It was the first time in history that you could do that when the VHS came right, right. That's right. Yeah. Before then you have to wait for the movie.

Diane Drake 1:01:39
Scripts,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:41
you can pause it and rewind it. And you're gonna have Martin Scorsese talking to you.

Diane Drake 1:01:46
Yes. Now.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:48
There's no excuse whatsoever. Now, your book, uh, tell me a little bit about your book. I want to I want to get people to if you're interested in it, where they can get it. What's it about?

Diane Drake 1:01:58
Um, it's called get your story straight. It's on Amazon. Like I said, it kind of grew out of my teaching for UCLA. And it I really go into what I think are the important elements of a functioning screenplay. And I use a lot of examples. Like I was saying I dissect a movie at the end of noumenon every chapter but almost every chapter, including Ironman and King's speech and sideways and Tootsie and toy stories, and the kind of all over the map fell on the waves, you know, winning screenplays, yeah, genius. Thurman always so holds up. How well that movie. It's so good. It's so good. That sequence I just gonna go up on tangent here quickly, the sequence because founders are talking about turnaround, the sequence where they get stopped by the cop. And Thelma, you know, starts in that sequence as like a little girl, you know, she's like, please, please, please don't let it get stopped. Please don't ask us. You know, and then they need the cop clips of the car. And then she sort of coqueta she was like, officer, I told her to slow down. No, it doesn't work either. And he makes Louise get out of the car and makes her go sit in the police car. And then, you know, Thelma appears at the window with the gun and start calling the shots. Oh, shoot the radio. And so you see that character arc in that sequence? You know, and it's just so brilliant. And it's so brilliant too, because you believe it? Right? Because we know she's met Brad Pitt. And we know there's money been stolen. We know. You know, she's desperate at this point. She's also, you know, had this little quick romance with him. And yet he's taken their money, but he's taught her how to Rob I mean, so it's not like it's not set up. You know, it like you don't see it coming yet. At the same time. It's like, oh, yeah, I can buy that she would do that. So

Alex Ferrari 1:03:49
it was such a great such agreement, and we are going to attach it but that was a great movie. Ridley Scott directed it. And people like Ridley Scott, like when he did that movie. It was like, what the guy with the Blade Runner and aliens doing?

Diane Drake 1:04:01
I know and it's visually so stunning. You know, it's Oh, it's so great. Anyway, so about the book. So yeah, so that's that's what the book is.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:10
With. Thank you. And then what else are you up to? What other things do you do?

Diane Drake 1:04:14
So I teach I do consulting. I do private consulting I speak I which I really enjoy I last year and I'm doing again this July I was a mentor at a retreat at this castle in France called marijuana castle. There are some folks anyway, it's miles Copeland. I don't know if you know that music producer responsibly. His castle. But it's fantastic. It's just a great experience. And then I'm gonna do another one of those in a monastery. Naples.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:46
Rough. Yeah, that's

Diane Drake 1:04:49
the best part. Honestly, I'm like being read. Anyway, that's an April 2020 The Italy one. So I do that and I I am Working on working on something and I haven't written anything in a while for all the reasons we discussed. But I do have a story I want to tell. So a lot of people have told me I should write it as a book. For a number of reasons. A Hollywood's more interested in books right now than they are in original ip ip. Yeah, exactly. No, it's really true. I mean, the manager who came to speak at my seminar or whatever, at UCLA recently, was saying literally even self published books they're more interested in than they are in an original screenplay. Because it sort of doesn't matter. It's as long as it's something else first. It's stunning. Um, but having said that, you know, I'm not. I've spent all these years in Screenwriting. That's what comes to me naturally and to try to write it as a novel. Oh, although the thought of like, not having anybody mess with it is really appealing. And it's, it's kind of daunting to me. So we'll see. But I yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:06:00
I'll tell I'll tell you what if I can write a book because I have a story that I had to tell. And I wrote a book that just got released about a crazy story in my life as a filmmaker, and it got published and people already asking me, when's the movie coming out? Because a friend of mine wanted me to write the screenplay. I'm like, I'm not gonna write the screenplay. I'm not gonna go chase money for a screenplay. I'm not gonna, and I can't tell the whole story. In a screenplay, it's gonna be so much more difficult. But what a lot of freedom in a novel, it is a tremendous amount it's for. And I've written more screenplays that I've written anything else in my life? It just just flows. It's so it's nice. It's,

Diane Drake 1:06:37
well, how you encouraged me, I appreciate that. I just, I don't know, I don't literally like kind of know how to do it on the I'm so used to being spare, you know, like, now. I've got to like, you know, they said, you know, it's like, I find that really challenging. Maybe I should just like, map it all out and then translate, right?

Alex Ferrari 1:06:55
It's like speaking, it's like speaking publicly doing a 10 minute speech versus a three hour speech. Like, it's much harder to do a 10 minute speech than it is to do a three hour speech, because three hours you can just Miranda and

Diane Drake 1:07:08
tell stories. And can you think the novel is like a three hour speech?

Alex Ferrari 1:07:12
Absolutely. Because I was able to go into places until until little detailed stories and then not have to be so precious with your words. Because when you're a screenwriter, they just beat you down with like, every single word has to mean something, that description has to move the story or we're in a novel, you could just you literally just all the chains are off, and you could just write and it is honestly for me, as you know, as a screenwriter, and as a writer it is so it was so freeing. I was like I'm just gonna write 1000 words today and then just write 1000 words and I'm gonna write another 1000 words today and, and there's no the structure is so much more freeing it as a writer, it feels it feels so much better for me. I do think that novel writers have an extremely difficult time becoming screenwriters. But I think screenwriters have a much easier time become novel writers. I had Doug Richardson, the screenwriter from bad boys, and diehard to on. And Doug. He's writing. He's writing novels now. He, he loves to teach. He said series of novels. And he still write screenplays. But he's like, oh, man, it's just so great. Because you could spell play and what you said, it's yours. No one's gonna mess with a word.

Diane Drake 1:08:24
Well, that's, that's the biggest thing. You know, I mean, obviously, you got editors, you know, if you get that are your sisters but, but, ya know, it's a whole other. Yeah, that that is something that, you know, is, I think, kind of unique to screenwriting. It's like, you know, if you do if you're a painter or poet, or whatever, you do it and maybe people like it, or they don't like it or whatever. But nobody's like, let's put a little more read on that. You know, write your own brush. Yeah. So I

Alex Ferrari 1:08:54
hope I've encouraged you to write in a novel.

Diane Drake 1:08:57
It's a good perspective shift for me.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:00
So I'm gonna ask you a few questions. I asked all my guests. What advice would you give a screenwriter one to break into the business today?

Diane Drake 1:09:05
You know, I I think I think okay, if you happen to be a minority, there's never been a better time. Right? So many fellowships, diversity fellowships programs out there particularly in television. I think the vast majority are in television but they all these you know, platforms and networks and everything as we discussed have so much you know, time to feed you know, and there's unlimited Netflix right?

Alex Ferrari 1:09:39
Oh, there's Netflix is just the starting there's so many streaming I think there's like 1000 moments shows going on right now. It's insane.

Diane Drake 1:09:45
And who knows how long that's gonna be the case. But for the time being, there's there's that vacuum not backing but you know, there's that market to fill. And there's a lot of heat on these organizations to open doors to people who always have been kept out basically. So, um, so if you're one, if you fall into that category, I would absolutely encourage people to pursue those fellowships and, you know, do your homework on that. And that's easy to find on Google that stuff. And then there's the contest, you know, nickel, you know, there's a handful that I think really sort of matter nickel as Film Festival, probably final draft, you know, there might be a couple more that I'm not thinking of right now. But that's kind of a way to get noticed, you know, and then, you know, the other thing is, and this is the trick, right, it's like, go do your own little thing. So there's this democratization of the technology, right, but at the same time, there's so much clutter out there. So that's hard to rise above. But, you know, I always say, and I always add that, you know, sometimes I wish this weren't the case, when my work doesn't seem to catch fire, you know, but, um, I really do believe if you write something good enough, and that bar is very, very high. But if you do, it will get noticed, people will talk about it, they will talk to their friends about it, and it will spread, and you will get somewhere with it. But you know, Mike Lawrence, you know, who wrote Little Miss Sunshine. There's a great clip of video of him online, if people are interested, where he talks about sort of his inspiration for that movie, and the origins of it, and he's really lovely. But one of the things he talks about is how he was a reader before he became a writer, I think, from Matthew Broderick, and and he says, I believe it's in that clip, where he says, you know, that I realized the talents, kind of a wash in B minus two B plus scripts. And then a lot of them just didn't ultimately fully deliver, particularly in the end. And he it was very important to him that that ending on Little Miss Sunshine really said something I did, and yeah, you know, like, it went away, you didn't expect and yet it made perfect sense. And it tied everything together with the medically and, you know, story wise and everything. So, I think that's true, you know, I think, to, to write a B script, it's probably not going to get you that far. But if you can, either, you know, whether it's in the conception of the idea that so unique that it's like Jurassic Park or something, you know, that it just really is just almost sells itself that way, or your execution is really so masterful, and and that is hard. That's really hard. And you had it, it doesn't happen in one or two drafts, you know, you'd have to really be willing to keep at it.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:31
Now, what can you tell me what book had the biggest impact on your life or career?

Diane Drake 1:12:37
I wish you'd asked me these questions about what book had the biggest impact? Um, you know, I can't think of one in particular, there's a book I really, really love. I don't know that it had the biggest impact on me, but it's called West with the night. It's actually setting African people wanted Sydney to make it after he did out of Africa. And it's a true story too, but he'd already done out of Africa. So sure, he wasn't gonna go back there. But that's a brilliant really book written by a woman who was a pilot in a bush pilot at the same era of Isaac Dennison. But what I will say is after I quit business school, and was thinking of going to law school, when I was in college, I didn't take any Well, I took one literature class, and I hated it, because they made us read books I didn't like, and so which is kind of like being forced to eat food, you don't want to eat, you know, and irony of ironies, that's what my living became, was reading, reading stuff. I didn't want to be reading screenplays. But for whatever reason, I just decided, when I got out that I wanted to have a better understanding of classic literature. And so I did my own little self, you know, self directed course, I guess, of reading the classics, sort of right after I got into college. So I read because I wanted to know what we built by Moby Dick Or they talked about Grapes of Wrath, or they or, you know, Jane Austen, or whoever, Tolstoy you know, I wanted some familiarity with that. I don't honestly really even know why. But I did. And what I learned from that was, it just taught me a lot about the universality of human nature. You know, like, at the time, like, you know, it was still the Soviet Union, and they were like, the big red menace, and I knew nothing about Soviet and then I read Tolstoy, and it's like, oh, but they're just like, people. Right? I mean, obviously, he was precisely, but you know, what I'm saying like that this Russian guy, you know, from the 1800s, right? Us 1800s, I believe, could speak to me, you know, in the 20th century, which was astonishing to me, but he really did and that's it. That's Shakespeare, right? That's, that's the things don't change that much. And so I think collectively that experience, really, it gave me a lot and I think it also gave me kind of confidence in my ability as a reader That was

Alex Ferrari 1:15:02
Very good. Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Diane Drake 1:15:11
Wow, what am I still learning? Um, you know it, I'll say this, it gets back a little bit to what we're talking about justice, you know, and you stay in this business long enough, some really shitty stuff is going to happen to you. It's just going to, and like I said, nobody is immune. And it's ugly, it is it is uglier than you can possibly imagine, that I could have possibly imagined. Um, the other side of that coin is, is can be incredibly exciting and incredibly fun. And I got to go to Italy and hang out with Robert Downey Jr. You know what I mean, it's like, but it runs the gamut. But I do remember having a point, a long time ago, in my life where I thought, you know, you either need to just accept that this is the nature of the game, you know, this is the nature of the beast, or you need to get out, because you are not going to change this. And so, yeah, you're not. Now having said that, I still have difficulty with that. And, and I will say, in the wake of the me to stuff, part of me is like, hats off, you know, for your collectively for those women collectively going, No, you know what, it's not okay. And we are going to try to change it. And, you know, maybe they will in the long run, maybe they won't, I don't know, but I really give them credit for having finally said, No, we're not just gonna say that's how it works. That's how the business is. There's nothing we can do. So if you have to, I think almost have like a duality, you know, where it's like, okay, this is the way it is. And you do your best to cope with it and just keep your head down. You know, do your work. That in the end, I think is your salvation, is do your work, do the best you can and, and strive as you do that, because it is so critical to be inspired by the work that you admire, and the work you love and really seek that out. Because that's what beat you.

Alex Ferrari 1:17:10
And the toughest question of all three of your favorite films of all time.

Diane Drake 1:17:14
Oh, my goodness. See, now this is so hard. Um, well, I would put them on Louise up there. I really would. I love that movie. Um, gosh, we think hear from it. I mean, there's little movies that I love. I don't know if I put them My all time but they just touched me like Al Pacino. I love love Pacino's beautiful. It's so beautiful. And it's just so quirky and sweet and beautiful. I really like Pulp Fiction. Fiction, and I and yeah, so and yeah. Butch Cassidy maybe Hello. Paul Newman. Anything Goldman? It? Yeah. And anything really true

Alex Ferrari 1:17:58
Princess bride I mean,

Diane Drake 1:18:00
Princess Bride, misery. I mean, come on. Yeah. All the presents. And at all of them. He's just genius. And they all hold up so well.

Alex Ferrari 1:18:09
And where can people find you and the work you're doing?

Diane Drake 1:18:13
I didn't, they can go to my website, which is dianedrake.com. And you can reach me there.

Alex Ferrari 1:18:18
Very cool. Well, Diane, it has been an amazing conversation. I'm so glad it went into places I wasn't expecting, which I love. Which is great. And you really drop some knowledge bombs on the tribe today about the realities of being in this business. And hopefully some inspiration and some cautionary tales, as well. So thank you so much for taking the time out to talk to us.

Diane Drake 1:19:02
Oh, my pleasure. Thank you. It's really fun.

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IFH 655: Oscars®, Zombies, James Bond and Tom Hanks with Marc Forster

Marc Forster is a German-born filmmaker and screenwriter. He is best known for directing the films Monster’s Ball (2001), Finding Neverland (2004), Stay (2005), Stranger than Fiction (2006), The Kite Runner (2007), Quantum of Solace (2008), and World War Z (2013).

His breakthrough film was Monster’s Ball (2001), in which he directed Halle Berry in her Academy Award-winning performance; the film also starred Billy Bob Thornton, Heath Ledger, and Peter Boyle. His next film, Finding Neverland (2004), was based on the life of author J.M. Barrie. The film was nominated for five Golden Globe Awards and seven Academy Awards, including Best Picture and Best Actor for Johnny Depp.

Forster also directed the twenty-second James Bond film, Quantum of Solace. In 2013 he directed the film adaptation of the novel World War Z, starring Brad Pitt.

His latest film is the remarkable A Man Called Otto.

Based on the # 1 New York Times bestseller “A Man Called Ove,” A Man Called Otto tells the story of Otto Anderson (Tom Hanks), a grump who no longer sees purpose in his life following the loss of his wife. Otto is ready to end it all, but his plans are interrupted when a lively young family moves in next door, and he meets his match in quick-witted Marisol.

She challenges him to see life differently, leading to an unlikely friendship that turns his world around. A heartwarming and funny story about love, loss, and life, A Man Called Otto shows that family can sometimes be found in the most unexpected places.

A Man Called Otto stars Tom Hanks (Philadelphia, Forrest Gump, Cast Away), Mariana Treviño (Club the Cuervos), Rachel Keller (Fargo) and Manuel Garcia-Rulfo (The Magnificent Seven).

The screenplay is written by Academy Award® nominee David Magee (Best Adapted Screenplay, Life of Pi, 2012; Best Adapted Screenplay, Finding Neverland, 2004) based upon the best-selling novel “A Man Called Ove” by Fredrik Backman, and the film A Man Called Ove by Hannes Holm.

The film is being produced by Fredrik Wikström Nicastro, Rita Wilson, Tom Hanks, and Gary Goetzman.

Enjoy my conversation with Marc Forster.

Marc Forster 0:00
I feel once you connect with an actor to make them feel comfortable and understand the visions you have, that's the key thing.

Alex Ferrari 0:08
This episode is brought to you by the Best Selling Book Rise of the Filmtrepreneur how to turn your independent film into a money making business. Learn more at filmbizbook.com. I'd like to welcome to the show Marc Forster. How you doing Marc?

Marc Forster 0:22
I'm good thank you and you Alex?

Alex Ferrari 0:24
I'm very good, my friend. So my first question we're going to jump right into it is, how did you get started in the business?

Marc Forster 0:31
You know, I grew up in Switzerland, in the mountains in Davos, and you know, surrounded by just nature and not much the parents in a TV. And I always had to play outside to entertain myself versus being entertained. And, and that's sort of inspired me to become a storyteller. The first time I saw a movie in a theater. So that's what I want to do.

Alex Ferrari 0:52
Now, how did you get involved with Monster's Ball because that was a such an impactful and crazy movie.

Marc Forster 1:00
You know, I made a movie called everything put together. And that premiered at Sundance. And the writers saw that movie and time producer, so they all saw it. And they said I would be right for it. And they were trying to get the movie made for like eight years. And the first first couldn't get made. And it was you know, originally Sean Penn directing was Robert De Niro, Sean Penn and Marlon Brando. And it was too expensive. And the first thing they asked me, look, we've been waiting to get this chance for all this time, we would make the movie with you. But can I make it for $3 million. And I made the Sundance movie for 50,000. I said $3 million. I couldn't do that. So that's how I started.

Alex Ferrari 1:40
So when you're when you were directing Haley and Billy Bob in that film, like, Did you just see what was going on with Haley's performance at that point, like, because she was amazing.

Marc Forster 1:51
You know, I didn't predict that she would win an Oscar at the time of shooting, but I definitely saw it when I saw performances, she was extremely powerful, extremely raw and vulnerable. And, and that's what we discussed, and we wanted to go for and that it felt real. And, you know, because how they, you know, is such a, you know, glamorous and beautiful human to really make it believable, the part I felt she worked extra hard.

Alex Ferrari 2:18
How did what advice do you have for directors who want to pull those kinds of raw and, you know, to those kinds of emotions out of an actor, what did you do to make her feel comfortable enough to be that vulnerable on screen.

Marc Forster 2:32
And, you know, ultimately, you you, you know, you discuss the part in depth in your vision and depths, and you communicate your vision. And I feel once you connect with an actor to make them feel comfortable and understand the visions you have, that's the key thing. I mean, for the most vulnerable scene between the intimate scene between Billy Bob and her, you know, there was a closed set, of course, and, and closed everything that they felt totally protected and safe.

Alex Ferrari 3:01
No, now you you made the jump from indie to slightly larger budgets, just slightly, from, from Monsters Ball to the James Bond, how did you handle psychologically the jump from 50,000 to 3 million to a couple 100 million?

Marc Forster 3:17
I mean, that there were a couple of movies between Yes, there was. So so, you know, I had like, I think finance they like for four or five movies in between. So I did the budgets increasingly much bigger. And you know, the one Catona was the one before the Bond movie, but still, it was only like the $25 million range. And it's, it's like, same thing if you have like a, you know, a small sort of boutique shop, or a boutique, you know, custom made shoe to store and then suddenly become CEO of Macy's or something. And, and it's a different thing, you suddenly have so many more people so many more questions. You're shooting seven, seven countries, seven countries all over the world, you know, this $20 million budget and, and history of a franchise that one of the most or the most successful franchise in history, and you suddenly it's suddenly when you start reflecting our thinking, I hope I am not gonna, you know, this is not an awkward guy that that ship is not gonna sink because otherwise my career is over.

Alex Ferrari 4:25
Right, exactly. So what does that feel like being on the set for the first day of shooting Quantum of Solace, and you just sit there like, okay, there's a million people running around trying to get this thing going, how did that feel being on the set on a Bond film such a legendary franchise?

Marc Forster 4:41
You know, to begin with, we started on purpose, the movie very intimate, was not some of the big big action sequences and big sets, so that it felt very familiar to me. I knew the territory. I knew how to do those, those scenes and and from that we started growing, but you know it what feels Like before, you're always under the radar, nobody really cares. And then suddenly a Bond movie and suddenly you have the world press attention on you. And that that is actually the biggest pressure and that I didn't know. So you don't you don't study don't think about that, that suddenly, everyone, and everyone will write about you. And before that nobody will hear.

Alex Ferrari 5:23
How did you deal with that psychologically? And how did that affect if it affected at all your creativity, or your process?

Marc Forster 5:28
I mean, the the process of movie was a tricky one, because there was a writer strike going on, at that time in 2008. So we had a sort of unfinished script, and then the strike was October to February. So it was very tricky. It was often just me, Craig and me in the trade are trying to figure out what we're going to do next. So so that was the even more pressure, I think, if it would have been a completed script that everybody said, this is fantastic. Let's just go and shoot it, it definitely deflates some of the pressure. But if you have something that's not completed, and you're suddenly stuck in that position, and you have a release date, in place, only five weeks to cut the movie. It's, it's kind of intense.

Alex Ferrari 6:09
Now in I mean, obviously, you also worked on World War Z, which is another small, independent budget. How did you deal with the stress of heading up such big productions? I mean, as a director, there's just so many people in so many departments, and you still trying to be creative and still be intimate with your actors? How do you handle that stress?

Marc Forster 6:29
Um, you know, I'm like, it's interesting. I like it was the it's for the mob Israel sequence when the zombies came over the wall. Yeah. Remember that sequence? Of course. So when I drove in the morning, I had a driver drive me to set in multiway, shelter and alter, and we came to set and we pulled up. And he looked at 2000 extras and helicopters in the air and buses and vans going on Friday night, but a driver literally had an anxiety attack, just looking at it.

Alex Ferrari 7:01
Not helpful.

Marc Forster 7:03
And I was like, whoa, what, what are you doing today? So you just go out and you just have to focus and you can't, you have to plan out all the chatter. Yeah. And I think that's one of the key things for directing in general. You know, you have so many voices always in general, from the financier, studio, actors, producers, whatever they do, we stick to your vision, you when you hear chatter, it takes some some stuff you like, but ultimately, you have to stick to your vision. And I think it's part of the art in that to be able to stay calm and blend it out.

Alex Ferrari 7:35
Now, as directors, you know, there's always that day that you feel like the entire world's coming crashing down around you. I'm assuming you have that every day. But um, there's more than there's that one day on any production, that you don't know how you're gonna get through. So what was that day on any of your productions? And how did you overcome it?

Marc Forster 7:51
I think, you know, I would say when we're shooting in western China, the Katonah our line producer forgot two hours before digital it was still wishes to do film. And Atlantis forgot to order film. So so we sort and left you know, short ends. So basically, where we're shooting these scenes, there was a six minute dialogue scene and only have like two minutes of film. So I couldn't tell the actor you can only piecemeal this and she was doing as a piece of so the actors like actors are playing six minutes of roles and acting the harder but only two minutes of filming it. So at the end, I knew there was no film and then I peed I basically next time I'd just shoot the middle and then the end. But sometimes the actress didn't ascend Why do you do so many takes and the second we got it then it was so great. And and but they weren't aware that was super stressful is thinking of these great performances, but you don't have to go on film. And just telling them oh, you know, we don't have a film in the camera right now. Which is like out wasn't, wasn't the right thing to do.

Alex Ferrari 8:56
Now on your new film, a man called Otto which by the way I saw and absolutely loved this such a beautiful film. And Tom Hanks is this newcomer Tom Hanks is fantastic. By the way,

Marc Forster 9:07
A real discovery.

Alex Ferrari 9:09
A real discovery without question. How did you get involved with this project? And also like, it seems like you're going back to your roots a little bit. It's a very intimate film, very small in scope comparatively to the other big things you've done over the over your career.

Marc Forster 9:24
Yeah, you know, I wrote the book, and I was so touched and moved. And I laughed, and I cried, and then I saw that was a Swedish version of the film, which I saw was good, too. So this movie, we have to become a very conversion out of this because it's so you know, it's so funny, but it's also so touching and dark. And it's like both but ultimately, it's a life affirming film. And what I loved about it brings the neighborhood back together. I think we are also divided these days. And I think that still at the end this is you know this I always feel like it's one country where we all need to work together. And even though we have different point of views, and there are so many different characters on that street, which is so sweet, and I like the new neighbor, the Mexican family that moves in across the street, who she comes over and tries to use English food. And I think food is one of those great things that we can literally all share, which, which definitely wants was someone's heart, but she's so persistent, that neighbor that her name is Mariana Trevino, marriage plays Mosel that autos character, who Tom Hanks plays, just that ultimately can't keep us opens up. He can't, he can't take it anymore.

Alex Ferrari 10:40
Do you? Do you still get nervous when you're directing people like Tom Hanks, like, on the first day on set? You're like, Tom Hanks is here.

Marc Forster 10:49
I mean, no key is I love that. And I think he's one of the greatest stars ever. He's definitely, you know, greatest town that we work with. I mean, it's so extraordinary. You know, after 40 years, he still loves what he does, and, and is a big movie star. And he comes in the morning and he sits on set and he never leaves. He's like, in like a meditation. And, you know, usually stars of that caliber, you take to take that out to trainer, he never he stays there all day long as a crew, he just sits there with the crew, and then you realize, change, life doesn't leave. And it's just this concentration and this sort of just being there. It's pretty, pretty special.

Alex Ferrari 11:29
How do you approach the different? How do you approach different acting styles? And you're directing? Because, you know, Tom Hanks is very different than a Halle Berry. That is different than a Brad Pitt? Like how do you adjust multiple characters in the same scene?

Marc Forster 11:43
Yeah, it's basically you, you have to, like find a way to get to connect and see what what the actor needs or not, and how open they are, and how willing you know, some of you know how, how willing they are to collaborate. And I was pretty lucky throughout my career that I always worked with actors who were very open. And we had, I never had, like, you know, the sort of nightmare situation, and that they were very focused and prepared and, and on time, so I never dealt with, with with the, with the Divas of the show business, which I'm, I'm very, very blessed. But at the same time, you just see what what they need, and really try to feel them out. Because sometimes it's better to say nothing than too much said, because sometimes the actor needs that space, and they find it and you as a director, maybe just have to say maybe we can just try a different prop, you know, try this or that it's less than giving you a demo direction is let's try something a different direction. So so that's, you know, how it how it really from person to person difference?

Alex Ferrari 12:47
And how did you balance the darkness of the story with the humor, because you did it so masterfully because you? I mean, you definitely touch upon very, very dark themes in this in this movie, but yet you're laughing and crying and dealing with those things. It's a very fine balancing act you did.

Marc Forster 13:05
Yeah, it's it's a lot of it is in editing because you know, we obviously shot a little bit more here and there. But it's it's finding this balance also, between the flashbacks and present day that you go, you don't stay too much in the flashbacks to come back that emotion. So stay connected with Tom and in the present day. And also in the, in the flashbacks. Ultimately, they just give enough information that creates sort of a mystery and enough for you to wanting to keep watching. And it's juxtaposing sometimes the dark was the humor strangely direct, you know, when places the hinge breaks, and he's on the floor, and he lands right next to the paper wisdom was the you know, yes to $5. And then he says, Let me get that takes you right back into the human.

Alex Ferrari 13:51
Right. It's just like, like, what is he's just did that. And he's like, no, like, it's a good, good. So the deal I gotta keep so beautiful. Now, I'm gonna ask you a few questions, ask all my guests Marc, what advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Marc Forster 14:08
I mean, ultimately, I think that, you know, today, you know, you can make your film on your phone. Basically, what it really comes down to is a great story. And I think also, when you find your story, the more personal connection you have with that, the better. It's either, you know, if you don't have the funds, I would recommend to do a short and then have the feature script ready. So you shoot the short and then say, look, there's my short and this feature is going to be and that's how you know how to raise money and, and figure it out and get actors and people that would love the short that's that's take our bet on this guy, or to make a feature for if you can raise the money. But no matter what it all comes down to the script, that the script is really strong and be free. I think it's important to keep it to other people to read the script to have them have a look, get feedback and just keep working. on that, but I think the stronger the script is better. And another thing is, once you make a movie, and you have a movie that works, let's say at Sundance or any of the festivals and someone buys it, that you have a second script ready, because you don't want to too much time say, Oh, I have nothing, I have to write another script or find something for next year or two, to get that going. But at that time, we live in such a fast society that that might have been too late. So I think to have a second project ready is important as well.

Alex Ferrari 15:29
Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Marc Forster 15:37
I think, you know, patience is definitely something you always have to learn, like, even sitting in traffic and staying home. You know, it's like impatience with these people was, you know, as your kids was everything it's like, just to be patient. I think it's really a hard one.

Alex Ferrari 15:56
Um, what did you learn from one of your greatest failures?

Marc Forster 16:01
Yeah, you know, they always say Silicon Valley is built on failures. And seeing failures are truly key for an artist for anyone, because you learn from them. For instance, after Finding Neverland, I made a film called stay. That wasn't Ryan, Ryan Gosling only walks great task where you McGregor great cars. And, and it the critics didn't love it, the artisan love it as part of a little bit of a following throughout the years. But when ultimately, when I made that movie, I think, why doesn't this print that movie work? And then I and out of that movie came straight from fiction, which also is sort of absurd and comedic. But then we worked and I was able to make that sort of absurdness that movie emotional. And it wasn't able to do that in state, even though visually is cool and compelling. But it ultimately didn't connect with people emotionally. And, and strain. Friction that so.

Alex Ferrari 17:05
So then, in the hardest question of all three of your favorite films of all time?

Marc Forster 17:10
Three of my favorite films. Well, I mean, it's a tricky one. You know, like, I love a lot of the dead directors. You know, I love I think in my Birdman, Swedish director, I would say like wild strawberries of his own, we really enjoy it. I, you know, I mean, there's three. There's a tough one,

Alex Ferrari 17:33
Three today. I know it changes tomorrow. So it will be on your tombstone. Don't worry.

Marc Forster 17:38
That, you know, I like you know, I always loved the Marx Brothers duck soup.

Alex Ferrari 17:46
It's so good. It's still, it still holds today.

Marc Forster 17:50
Yes. And I think Howard harps bringing a baby. It's one of my favorites. Because I just love how fast that dialogue goes, and how she performs that. And that's also one of my favorite films.

Alex Ferrari 18:04
And where can people watch A Man Called Otto.

Marc Forster 18:08
Hopefully, they all will watch it in the theaters. Because it's a movie that really, you should experience in a theater. And it's one of those movies, you know, people seem to come and come out for it. And it's something you want to expense together. You laugh and you cry. And you don't want that alone alone at home for TV. So right now, it's still theaters for next couple of weeks. So please go and support it.

Alex Ferrari 18:29
And very last question. I'd love to hear your opinion on this. Yeah, as a filmmaker, we grew up as filmmakers, we grew up loving movies at the theater. But that seems to be it becoming more and more of an endangered species unless there's certain kinds of films. What do you what are your What are your hopes for the future, my friend because it's tougher and tougher to get people at the theater nowadays.

Marc Forster 18:51
You know, Man Called Otto was the kind of movie Hollywood used to make. Yeah. And they don't make very much anymore. And I ran into a few people answered, really, they said, we have hope again, because the main hook auto seems like people came out to see it. And we didn't think those kinds of movies would stop in a theater. And I'm so glad they came and supported the movie. And I hope you know that people keep coming out for movies like that, because that will keep those movies alive because the financier is obviously in the studio's will not pay for a movie when no one shows up. And they very quickly have the algorithms you know that so many people don't. The decisions today are not being made anymore by the gods by like the old studio heads or people it's mostly made by algorithms and marketing. So can I market a movie with who is more can we sell it? They run these numbers and that's that's how it gets done mostly.

Alex Ferrari 19:45
Marc it's a pleasure talking to you my friend. Please keep up the fight the good fight, my friend, keep making the films you're making. I really appreciate it.

Marc Forster 19:52
Thank you so much, Alex. Have a good day! Take care!

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IFH 654: The Neuroscience Behind Profitable Screenwriting & Filmmaking with Paul Gulino

Today’s guest is screenwriter Paul Gulino. Paul is the author of The Science of Screenwriting: The Neuroscience Behind Storytelling Strategies.

Paul believes in Hitchcock’s adage that “films are made on paper.” Although students may obsess about a film’s look, all of the visual elements, he says, function to enhance the story. And that, ultimately, comes from the mind of the screenwriter.

In spite of the fact that there seems to be a screenwriter behind every corner (in California, at least), screenwriting is something of a lost art, Gulino maintains, having seen hundreds of flat screenplays as a story analyst for Showtime Entertainment.

Honing his own skills through writing for the theater and practicing the craft as taught by Frank Daniel and Milos Forman, Gulino secured an agent with William Morris on the basis of his thesis script. With that “real world” confirmation in hand, Gulino went on to write and see produced features, plays and comedy sketches.

Screenwriting, he says, isn’t a craft you can learn from a book.

“The best way is to learn from someone who knows the craft, so you can see how theories can be applied to your own work.”

There must be something to that. Or at least it’s worked for screenwriter Paul Gulino.

Enjoy my conversation with Paul Gulino.

Alex Ferrari 0:36
I'd like to welcome to the show Paul Gulino. How you doing my friend?

Paul Gulino 3:12
Oh, I'm doing much better now that we've started live. Thank you for being part of my world.

Alex Ferrari 3:20
Yeah, I appreciate it. Like I told you, when we were off air, I always love bringing different voices and different ideas on the screenwriting process, because you just never know what's going to connect with that individual screenwriter out there where they might would like one person or they might like the other person, or this book really talks to them, or that idea really talks them. So I always love to bring new ideas on. And when I read about your ideas and your approaches, I was like, well, I gotta get Paul on the show. So I'm so glad. I'm so glad you're on. So first of all, how did you get started in the business?

Paul Gulino 3:51
I started with a super eight camera when I was 10 years old, you know, dad to break camera and making a movie with our dog, the family dog and then graduating to Super eight sound and then finding out one day that there was such a thing as the film classes taught at university but I was like, really, and I studied with Frank Daniele at Columbia University. And as I said before he was the he's have a lot of very successful students is a was unique teacher is stable would include Milos foreman would be recognizable David. David Lynch was another one Terrence Malick. Martin breasts was one of his students at the American Film Institute. He's on top. So there were a lot he had. He was the founding director of the American Film Institute, and he brought his pedagogy from Czechoslovakia to the United States through that, and in turn, his pedagogy came from studying American Cinema in Czechoslovakia, and basically watching movies over and over and over again, because you could do that for one price, sitting in the theater and then applying Western dramatic theory to understanding how how movies work. And then his approach to teaching was sort of like working with you as a collaborator on your script, while smuggling theory in so you have a broader picture of how, what your choices are basically making you aware of what your choices are when you're telling a story, so and so that's how I got my start. After I went to film school with Frank, I was doing the thing with writing and was in New York City. So I was working on stage plays, and trying to get things release in front of an audience and then moved to LA in 89. And then, was able to get an agent and he was able to sell a spec script and and got that made, I like to say the screenplay was loosely based on a real story. And the movie that resulted was loosely based on my screenplay. And another film made a few years later, and I've been working as a consultant working, worked on an Animated Feature Animation on a project that could not get made, but it was a it was a great experience, you know, one of these things where they spent $30 million on it, and then decided I was the sixth writer out of about eight writing teams on the project. Fair enough.

Alex Ferrari 6:48
So when you came, so when you came to LA, though, it was during the whole spekboom time, isn't it? It was the time where spec rise spec scripts were like, everybody was making a million here, 2 million there. I mean, the whole Shane Black Joe Astor house era of spec scripts, it was that time, right.

Paul Gulino 7:07
Yeah, that was basically the 80s was the discovery that there's such thing as writing a screenplay. And that you can that that's a viable option, and that Hollywood resolve into this thing back then. Yeah, there were there have been periods when they work. And then they weren't. And then they were, you know, there was a boom in this an interest in screenwriting, or what they called, at the time photoplay writing back in the 19 teens. So you look back there, you'll find about, I believe there's about 60 titles on how to write a photo play. And the public was very interested in this. And there were manuals, how to write a photo play, and because they were taking from the outsiders at that time, and then you have this drought for many years, because Hollywood became sort of a closed shop, Film School of that time, and then starting for variety reasons. In the 70s, things fell apart, and it opened up and new voices were heard, and that's when screenwriting was sort of rediscovered, and then starting in 79, you have subfields book come out. And then the boom in screenwriting books, pedagogy and interest in it begins there. And so when I was in film school there actually, my path is my frame of reference is very different because there were no manuals at the time, I was learning from somebody who is from a master teacher, and there were books on playwriting. Certainly there were plenty of those. But it was it was something being rediscovered at the time. And what how do you put this stuff together?

Alex Ferrari 8:52
So you you've been teaching for many years now. So you've had a lot of students you see, you've probably read a handful of screenplays, just a handful in the course of your of your time teaching. What is the biggest mistake you see first time screenwriters make?

Paul Gulino 9:08
That's an interesting question. Because my perspective is a little strange in that I I'll train them initially. So like they're not writing a feature script that nobody hands me a feature script right away and it has the effect that they have to go through. Kind of like Etudes you know, how musicians have scaled cetera? Well, we have writing Etudes, you know, they're going to exercise different writing muscles and then they build up to a feature and then then start working with them on that. So said once I've consulted on where I get a full line, are you hearing a hammering it somewhere?

Alex Ferrari 9:47
That's okay.

Paul Gulino 9:47
Okay. We got sound engineers, you know, that's it. I'll get rid of that. The ones that I see nowadays what I can notice is In a way, they're overthought. Like there's encrusted with all these different, you know, they read a lot of books on it, and they want to do it right. And I'll have stories that are promising. And then, but I see they're jamming it into some idea. And then they're really proud of the fact that I, okay, I have the second twist here, see, see, I got it here. And this is here. And so there is often a departure from between conflict between what their story is and how they're executing. So for example, I was doing a romantic, working with someone working on a romantic comedy recently, and this person had a woman main character, and she's going after them, she's with the wrong guy, you know, she's with the wrong guy, and the right guy is right out there. So enter the second act. He's got this, all is lost moment, or dark night of the soul. And that moment consisted of her finding out that the guy that she's with is all wrong for her. He's not only not right for her, but he's stealing and he's cheating. He's, I don't know why he's probably got, you know, murdering puppies somewhere. I wasn't that bad. But it was like she makes discoveries. And why? Because you're supposed to have this happen at the end of the second act. And I said, Well, wait a minute. She doesn't belong to this guy. So maybe the end of the second act is she gets some audio. But it sounds like from what your material, the worst possibility would be that she lines up with the wrong guy. So the worst thing that could happen is he proposes to her and she accepts it. Now we have a third act tension, which is going to be is she going to realize in time before the wet hick send the right guy right there, you see that the landscape is, I like to say all all truth in screenwriting is local, you know, depends always. Yes, you could have a desperate moment at the end of the second act. And then what the terrain of the story is you're working on. And so I've run into that. I don't know how helpful that is. The The thing was, the other thing I noticed that I have to work with students on is his dialogue, and the mistakes that they make, and it's certainly mistake I made. And it's a mistake that people starting out make. And I can see that it's not about overall feature screenplays, it happens in short films. So I can tell you what they come with is what I call q&a dialogue, Question and Answer dialogue. Yeah, character enters the room and says, How are you today? And the person says, that I didn't sleep much last night. How about you? Well, I slept pretty well. But I am thinking of going to the store. Would you like to go to the store? I think I might go to the store. But you know that one question, one person questions, everyone answers, and it's emotionally neutral. So we work I work with them on how to overcome that that problem, how to understand how characters interact, and how you can avoid that sort of behavior in your scripts, and then make them readable. So that's, that's a mistake that I see. And that's what people do. takes a while.

Alex Ferrari 13:23
I realized when I was first writing screenplays I'm by by no stretch a master screenwriter by any stretch. But when I first started writing, I did everything a lot of the things that you're saying right there, I did, because I was I've read so many books, and I read so much technique that I was like, on page, this, this has to happen on this line. So I would like jam it in there. Regardless if it meant it was correct or not correct. And I would literally conform the story around. Absolutely having to hit this specific point. And I found it and from my own experience, that it is just it's insecurity. You know, it's an insecurity of not not feeling comfortable with the craft enough to be able to just let it let me do what I need to do to tell the story like, you know, with with these master screenwriters out there, even master filmmakers that they take their time and they don't, you know, they don't have to hit certain things. Yes, they're going to hit probably the three act structure or something like Raiders of the Lost Ark, which I think has a five act structure if I'm not mistaken. You know, those kind of things. They'll hit those points in good time. And as long as it works within the stories that makes sense.

Paul Gulino 14:38
Yeah, it's it's, it's to me it's because I was trained before a lot of theories came out other than Aristotle and sure poetics other more traditional drama. The way I was trained, if you look at what the function and what then out from the very first meeting in first class, it's about connection, as opposed to expression. If it when, take a step back and ask yourself, when you go to a film school, when you take a writing class, what is it, you're actually learning, you're now learning how to be creative. That's not something that can really be taught that we know of yet. And you can create circumstances by which people can maybe be more creative, but it's not well understood. And, you know, it's hard to model with computers to get computers to be creative. So we don't do that we don't teach you the creative process. What we do teach you that what we have learned a lot about, over the last several 1000 years, is we've learned about audiences. And, and we can, if you know that your job is to connect with an audience, we can teach you about audiences. Now, I don't mean like, a particular demographic, I mean, a general person, a normal human being, how do people respond to material? And so when you think about how a story is structured, a term that's used a lot, by structure, I guess I would mean, the arrangement of the pieces, the pieces being the scenes, and information. You You can see that strategy, you know, three, x five, x, whatever, as a kind of subset of the bigger question of how do I grab them? And how do I keep them? How do you grab an audience? And how do you keep that up. And if you know how, the tools, if you have the tools to do that, you can use it in a variety of very exciting, interesting ways. And you can pivot between the feature film and the stage play series, you know, streaming series, because you know how that's done, you know, how to get in people's heads. And that's one of the things that fascinates me about this, why I wrote that the second book with county shares a psychology, like a college professor, it's how to film get into people's heads. And how can I get how can you teach people how to get into people's heads and manipulate them? And one of the things I like to do when I'm lecturing is, I'll show them like a short film that I like, like a four minute movie, and then I'll stop it, like, with about 30 seconds left in and say, Sorry, we got to move on. I'm sorry, we you know, and this movie has achieved something. It's got them wondering what's happening next. And when I do that, you hear the groans I say, what's wrong? I'm, okay, I showed you most of the movie, why do you have to see the rest, you know, and I, I just showed this, these images up here in sound, and it went out into the audience, and it worked them over, and it manipulated them. And now they're kids, because they want to see the end of this. And that's like, amazing. And I love that fact, and I love learning how to do that. And then teaching people how that can be done. And so when we talk about three act structure, or do you need it, or do you not need it the way it's about how you define, if you define them by function, what is the function of the Act? Well, if the function is to create what we call dramatic tension, which is who will the boy get the girl or the boy get the boy and let's not generalize this, we can, in the modern age, we can we will, the LGBTQ person gets the one that they like, yes. Well, that person get that person. Okay. That's the question, okay. And we, if we connect with that character, we're going to be tilted into the future, we're going to be wondering whether they're going to get that person. And then, so you wind up in drama, it's called the main dramatic question. Okay.

Will will the person get the other person? And the question question has three parts, you post it, you deliberate, you answer, you don't need more, and you can't have less. And so if you want to do dramatic tension as your main tool for keeping the audience interested in your movie, you don't have a choice. I mean, if the character if the audience is watching something, and they don't know why the character is doing what they're doing, then they're not going to be in suspense about whether they're going to get what they want. It's not gonna work. So therefore, you need to pose that question in the audience's mind. And then the third act as you answer the question, I'm sorry to interrupt you. So

Alex Ferrari 19:40
no, no. Because you wrote this book, which is called the neuroscience of screenwriting, which is is amazing. It's amazing. I love studying neuroscience. It's a hobby of mine as crazy as that sounds. I love studying neuroscience. And I want to ask you, what is it about the human mind That that example that you said in your class when you cut them off? What is it in our brains? That is this need to know what happens this? Absolutely, because you go on the ride and a good story, a good movie, a good book will take you down this road. And if someone ruins the ending for me, that's still worse if you get a spoiler out, or you ruin the movie for them before they ever get to watch it or ruin the book or anything like that. There is anger, there is like pure anger. What is it on a on a neuroscience level? What are the connection? What are the synapses in your mind that are coming I mean, this is just programming over 1000s and 1000s of years, 10s of 1000s of years of telling stories around the campfire where now we're just if we don't hear the end of that story, we could die. Because that was the original. Originally the story was like there was a tiger who ate the child. And if you go around this corner, what corner? What corner, what corner, we need to go around? I'm sorry, I can't tell you the corner. And now you're dead. So I don't know, is that something? I'm just throwing that out? out there?

Paul Gulino 21:09
What do you think? Well, that's there's, there's one theory, which is a little bit experimental. It hasn't been confirmed yet. So we didn't actually put it in the book. But there's a theory of mirror neurons that Connie talked about that. This idea that when you watch somebody eat a chocolate pie, the very same neurons that are happening in their brain, if you like chocolate, you know, are firing in yours. So you connect with it in that way.

Alex Ferrari 21:37
That's, that's basically advertising.

Paul Gulino 21:42
And, by the way, I make a great chocolate meringue pie, you know, so just because it's important to me, but so, but that's one there, but it hasn't been confirmed. But the best, the best argument that I've heard about, okay, why do we read stories? Why do we watch stories? It's because it's universal, you kind of look for, what's the adaptation and evolution, because in evolution and human existence in any kind of life form, any activity takes energy, and you're going to have to eat or consume things in order to have enough energy to do that thing. And you don't want to waste energy, you could start Okay, or not efficient. If you could spend your time hunting rather than doing something else, you're wasting your time and you're reducing your chances for survival. Well, so why are what stories must play some role in survival? And a good argument comes, there's a book called the storytelling animal by Jonathan gottschall. And his argument is this that we mentioned in the book, it's that it's like learning, it's a learning, it's a way of learning about life without being in danger that you are, it's a rehearsal for life. And it is a learning thing. You like you just said, you tell a story about this Tiger that's over there. And you don't tell people? What's the lesson learned? Then? It's, it's, it's not. It's frustrating. And this process by which we become involved in the storytelling, there's other theories about that. It's it has to do with how we, in terms of connecting with main characters, let's say, Now, why do we do? Well, there is a process by which some would argue that morals and society are created, which is one theory is called blurring, that you'll literally you'll blur and become another person. Like the example, the one the theorists gave was, this lady is thinking of killing his neighbor, her neighbor. Okay. And then, before she does that, she imagined what it would be like to be that neighbor. And then for a moment, she mentioned the pain that she would cause by doing that, and then they're blurred, their identities blur, and then she decides as a result, I better not do it, because I don't, I don't want them to feel the pain that I've paid to feel. Okay. So that's a theory of how we connect with people. And that's deployed by storytellers. When we tell a story. When we connect with a person on screen. We literally lose ourselves. I mean, I know you've had this experience, of course that yes, yeah. You You're watching a movie I've had in a movie theater where the power went out, you know, where am I I'm, I'm in a movie theater. It's new and I thought it was nighttime because the movie, you get lost in it. It's

Alex Ferrari 24:35
very mad. It's such a magical thing. It really when it's a good story in a good movie or a good book. You're not there you are in the story you are, everything else just shuts down because you were we're literally sitting in a dark room for two hours. Looking at some images flicker and some sound play. It's it's fairly a magical experience in the moment

Paul Gulino 25:01
Right, there's this thing called the willing suspension of disbelief that you're willing to do that. Okay? Well, gosh, I'll argue that it's not willing, you can't help it. If I start telling a story, okay, there was a ship on the sea and the sea salt was blowing. And you know, the waves were coming in the clouds appeared on the horizon. And there was, you're there already, you can't stop feeling those things. And hearing and imagining

Alex Ferrari 25:28
is, is the equivalent of saying, Don't think of the pink elephant.

Unknown Speaker 25:32
It could be

Alex Ferrari 25:34
whatever you do, don't think of a pink elephant right now. And you're you can't, you can't stop it. Now everyone who's listening right now is thinking of a pink elephant. But I told them don't think about it. So very soon, when you were telling that story, I was already I was already going in my head. And connecting to the experiences of when I was on the Odyssey on a boat, or when I was on and I could smell the ocean. I was already I was already going real quick. And I wasn't even exerting any energy to do it.

Paul Gulino 26:02
Yeah, it, it comes naturally to us because it helps us another psychologist. Let me get I want to make sure I get the name, Keith outlays. He has an article called the flight simulator of life, that stories are the equivalent of a flight simulator. For an airline pilot, you're on a flight simulator. So when you crash, you don't die. A movie, your you become that other person in the movie in the story in a film and the TV series. And they go through all kinds of danger, and they learn lessons. And guess what you got to learn the lesson that they learned but you didn't have to die. You've got to learn it. So even a tragedy where the character doesn't survive. You learn from you know, you've learned don't do that.

Alex Ferrari 26:55
Now, isn't it interesting because as of this recording, the Joker came out in theaters last week. And it is causing all sorts of commotion people are walking out of the theater, people are loving the movie. It is it is a very diverse, a film that divert not diversity. What's the word divisive film, right? Because and I haven't seen it yet I have. I have my tickets because I either. I want to see it too. But the thing which I bring it up for this conversation is that you are following a villain. You're watching a person go from being maybe a damaged human being into a full blown villain, arguably a psychotic maniac, who is arguably one of the you know, greatest villains ever created in the scope of movies and possibly in comic book lore as well. So people have a problem with that, because you're now attaching yourself to a villain in such a deep, dark way that it is bothering people. And I can't remember a movie. I mean, taxi driver would probably be the closest thing like when you watch taxi driver, there's a lot of people who just can't deal with it because you're you're Travis Brickell, I mean your,

Paul Gulino 28:19
your work that I do that

Alex Ferrari 28:21
you're in there, there is nothing else you can attach yourself to and the filmmaker and the storyteller and the screenwriter. Dave, you're Travis and you're going through and you're he's, he's who he is. So people that's why films like that have such a diverse, divisive, a feeling. And in today's world, you don't get those kind of films. So I'm excited to watch the Joker in these put up by Rudy.

Paul Gulino 28:45
Yeah, that that'll that'll be very interesting. The usually, like there have been successful movies. And one reason one word I discouraged by students from using that's popular is when they talk about the main character is hero. And I understand like the hero's journey, they don't necessarily mean hero, but when you say some of the hero, he got a The, the impression you get the connotation is, oh, someone who's hero, they do heroic things, and they're strong, and they're attractive and all that. But we don't learn from those kinds of people we learn from people who got problems and, and trends that transgression, they do the wrong thing. But you can still you can have a character who's a, let's say, a man who has an affair with a married woman and decides to murder her husband so he can get money. And we'll go with it. Because you know, Double Indemnity, that that works, but there isn't enough there for us to connect with so that we're okay with going for the ride even though it was controversial at the time. Yeah. And there was questions about who couldn't get naked. For a long time, and then there was this sense that people do learn from movies, and therefore we can't have bad people as main characters, unless they're really punished. And I don't know if you're aware of this, but they wrote and shot an extra sequence in that movie that they cut out. And that extra sequence was, you remember the film very clearly.

Alex Ferrari 30:20
Very clear. I saw years ago probably films

Paul Gulino 30:22
years ago. Okay. Well, the last scene is spoiler alert, but it doesn't matter. It's so

Alex Ferrari 30:29
if it's over, if it's over 5060 years old, it's not a spoiler alert anymore. It's the

Paul Gulino 30:36
I can't get to the Statue of Liberty Statue of Liberty. Exactly. So this what happens at the end is he actually it's wrapped around with the beginning of the pack that begins with actually a flood that begins of the present. And the whole thing is a flashback with the guy narrating. And in the end, he stumbles and falls in the office, and that's where it ends, you know, and he's with his buddy, who suspected him and had to, you know, ultimately turn him in. But that was, that's where they ended it. But the next sequence that they didn't shoot involved, Fred MacMurray is execution, he goes to the electric chair. It was an extensive, elaborate sequence. And keys, his best friend is sitting in the audience, you know, watching his best friend being put to death for his crime. They realized it was a little too much. So they they cut that out, but you could see how conscious they were making sure that we don't connect with, we don't learn that it's okay to kill people from this movie. Another picture that I like to cite is one that's made the main character committed statutory rape, and is in jail for fighting, fish fighting and people having you know, assaults. And also he's a lazy bum and doesn't want to do any work. That's One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. That's, that's, you know, McMath mcmurphy. A movie. Yeah. But so you've got this flawed character in his own way. And the way it is, is tragic flaw is a good thing. He has humanity. You know, that's how the movies really twist things around. But we, our first impression of them is, and that's something called the primacy effect first impression, the first time you see him, he's, he's whooping it up for joy. And then he's going around trying to talk to people and helping him with play cards. So your first impression is, he's a good guy. And then you learn a little bit more about him. And then you find out what kind of person he is, but but his behavior is at odds with that. So I don't like didn't censor themselves from having interesting flawed characters. Now, the Joker, I haven't seen. The reason for diverse opinions is something else that we talked a little bit about in the book, it just has to do with, of course, what we bring the movies, and we do bring on life experiences. We write and so different movies are going to affect people in different ways. And I tell my students, you know, when I pick movies that I show that I analyze that it's taken for three reasons. One is I feel have to feel that they work, because I can't show you a movie that why and how it works if I don't think it work. The second is it has to be rich in the in the craftsmanship. So I can point out different things that the writer and the storytellers are doing, that they can learn. And the third thing I tell them is the luck of the draw, I got to love it. And that's just me. And if they're out of luck, as the guy in the next room, he's going to show a different set of movies. And that just has to do with what resonates with me in particular. And there is a concept in constructivist psychology called the schema. A schema is a is a conceptual framework by which we understand the world. It's a shorthand way of understanding things. You it kind of borders with object recognition, but it's like constructivist psychology, which plays a role in how we understand movies, and which I think if you understand that you can have fun is the premise of that the argument is that our experience of the world, our experience of life, is not largely knowledge based. It's

based on inference, because our brains are powerful enough to process everything that we're seeing all around us, you know, of course, of course, right? So an example would be if you see a curb on a street, you know, a curb. The first time you're going to look at it, you're going to check it out, when you're two or something and you're going to navigate it. But once you store it, it's called that's called bottom up processing. You see it, it goes up in your brain. Then after that, it becomes top down processing where you see a curb, you compare it to their memory of how curbs work, and then you assume it's like any other So you just walk over, you don't measure each time you walk over, that wouldn't be efficient. So we take, we have those shortcuts. And what happens is that sometimes we're wrong. Sometimes that curve isn't what we thought it was. It's a different curve. So we thought we thought so. So when we that, we'll get back to that in a second how that plays a role in screenwriting, but in terms of how we perceive things, we do bring that top down processing to the world because we've all had slightly different experiences. So that going back to Cuckoo's Nest, there's a scene in which a nurse ratchet the first time she does this group therapy, and it's terrible. She's it's just everybody's at each other's throats. And she's sitting there impassively at the end, okay. And I started there, and I asked my students, what do you think's going on with her, and I got different reactions. The first one said that she was a sadist. And she's happy that they fell apart. Another one said that she thought this person had regret that they weren't healthier. Another one was, you know, there was a variety of these things. And no one's right. It's just, they're bringing their stuff. So the Joker will be an interesting one, to look at what we identify with,

Alex Ferrari 36:17
I always I always tell people that, from my studies in neuroscience, that many of the things that stop us from specifically being like screenwriters, or being artists in general is by the associations of things that happened to us in the past, where you either associate failure and your brain tells you, you're basically the brain needs to keep you in this nice safe box, you're in a safe zone, that safe zone is where you go, and you only go up to the edge of that safe zone, because outside of that zone is unknown, and whatever is unknown, is potentially deadly, because that's our how our, you know, our alligator brain or reptilian part of our brain works. So that's why it's so difficult for people to lose weight, because their safe zone is being where they're at, or I can't write a screenplay, I'm just gonna do a short first. And then they slowly build up the courage to like, I'm gonna do a screenplay. And then, and if it's not really good, or if it's, someone beats them down, and they're not prepared for it, they're like, Okay, I'm gonna go back. It's kind of like you're always stepping in and stepping out, you're always trying to do, we're built to be comfortable. And in a comfort zone. And I always tell people to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. That's the only way you grow. That's the only way you get out there and do things. And it's and that works with writing as well. Because I know you as well as you do this many screenwriters out there who live in their box, and they do their box well, and they don't generally jump out of their genre that their style. You know, that's why I love people like, you know, Tarantino who stays within his box, but man, he's jumped into every genre possible, and just throws his flavor into every genre. Same thing with Kubrick, when Kubrick was was doing his masterpieces, I mean, he literally made the definitive film of every genre that he walked into, essentially, so so I was just I wanted to get your opinion in regards to the neuroscience behind that and the in the how it affects us as screenwriters and as creatives.

Paul Gulino 38:22
Well, I'm, I'm certainly not a neuroscientist.

Alex Ferrari 38:24
I don't, neither, neither am I, but from

Paul Gulino 38:27
from, I have several patients I'm going to be operating on later today. Because you know, you everybody's got to make a little money on the side of

Alex Ferrari 38:36
neuroscience is a nice side hustle.

Paul Gulino 38:39
Yeah. You can do a series of multiple surgeries for the same issue. But there it is true. What I that are to talk about the reptilian brain, our two most basic impulses are hoping fear, emotions are hoping to fear okay. And, and fear is actually what you're describing, saying that safebox fears actually stronger than hope. And the example that I heard from one psychology professor was that if you are in a restaurant, and you get this, you know, a fancy restaurant with a wonderful seafood plate, you know, with all this all the fixings and everything, and you're about to eat it and you see a roach cockroach in it. That's it, you're done. Okay, you're not going there, you're not going to touch it. Contrast that suppose your sit down to a meal, and it's covered with roaches, and you see one, you know, artichokes? You're not going to say, yeah, look at that. I get an artichoke out of it. You don't you don't touch it. So that's the example they gave the top and fear. Now something else that's useful that we didn't talk about in this book. But it's another thing that I think is useful for when writers work with characters is this narrative theory of of psychological development. Because you're talking about people that say the posterity was different, that, that the idea is that we, up till age, by the time we get to age three, we have developed a narrative of our lives. And we tend to notice the things that confirm that narrative and ignore the facts that don't. This leads to all kinds of neuroses. I mean, like, you know, I'm the one who never was loved. So I'm unlovable, okay, someone throws himself at you. That's an aberration. That's not doesn't fit, you know. And there was this episode of a senator I forget his name a senate US Senator A few years ago, who was caught having sex with men in bathrooms in Minneapolis. Right. Okay. So what? What was his story? Well, he was married, and he again, and he's a he's a straight man. Right? Well, that's the story, he tells himself. The fact that he's meeting strange men and having sex with them, gets ignored in that narrative. It's like, Oh, I don't know what that is. But that has nothing to do with who I am. What I am, is a straight man with a family and all that. And in a way, this guy is living two different lives, you know, what he's aware of, and one that he blocked out? I can't speak to him. He's not my patient. I don't know. I'm not a psychiatrist. But you can see that process happening, that it's possible that a guy who's spent 50 years of his life, he's like, 6050 years of his life, suppressing some reality, and construct a reality in which he was not gay. If he ever came at 865, to realization that he was gay, that's 50 years of your life that you're a stranger.

Alex Ferrari 41:44
It's dead. It's devastating. It's devastating.

Paul Gulino 41:47
Yeah. We should put that away.

Alex Ferrari 41:49
So that so let me so let's turn this into something for for screenwriters in regards to the the script, the screenwriting guys who's listening? No, because I mean, listen, I could talk neuroscience all day. But the but the concept for for character development, this is so powerful. And it's such a powerful tool to use as a screenwriter to get into psychology and to get into almost the like, just the concept of what we just talked about, adding that, that sub layer that, that that that thing underneath of the that underlining thing is like, I have to stay in this safe Spock's perfect example a guy who's been, you know, 50 years saying, I'm married, I have kids, but then I go off. I mean, that's, and and exploring why he did that. That's a story. That's a screenplay, or the person who has a wife and kids and he's a serial killer, you know, on the side, and we've seen those kind of movies, like they they literally compart my compartment. I can't say the word you know what I'm saying? To mentalize Thank you, sir. I'm a little bit, but they're but they put their their worlds in different boxes as almost a defense mechanism for themselves. So someone like this, the guy you're talking about this politician, he literally was doing this to protect himself in his mind. Like, that's that other story, which is his true nature. He couldn't for whatever reason, the way he was raised his environment, his social group or community wouldn't accept that. So he suppressed it. And now it comes out in this very strange way, years later, because it can't You can't hold something like that in it's not something you can maybe hold it at bay for decades. But eventually it will come out that is such a powerful,

Paul Gulino 43:39
a character development tool, the difference between the story you tell yourself about yourself, and the reality when that collapses, that's huge. And the way you can use it in screenwriting, you know, a lot of people like, I think creating characters, it's, it is kind of a mysterious process, people come up with him, some people are very good at it, some have more plot driven or that kind of thing. They divided that way. stories and characters are more primitive. But usually people try to write a background about that character, okay, he was raised this, he did this. And that's useful to generate ideas. But the other thing to think about is not what they went through, but what do they tell themselves about what they went through? What is it because this is really important, when you're when you're writing a screenplay, when you're even plotting it out? The character doesn't know what the story is about. They think it's about something completely other than what what you're in the journey here, but I'm going to put them up. So where is their head? Where is your characters thinking things are going to go? What's the narrative that they're telling themselves, while you're plotting while you're God? doing all kinds of things to their lives? So in that sense, to give a little thought to this question, when you're thinking about coming up with a character when you're trying to come up with the specifics of a character, what are the what are they? What do they think about themselves? What's their image of themselves? And their story really their story of themselves. And and we certainly we do exist in a story, you know, we do that

Alex Ferrari 45:07
as a defense mechanism defense mechanism for our own sake, you know, just for us to be able to, to continue to it's a story stories are so powerful that we tell ourselves stories just so we can make sense of this insane thing called life. And I think that's one of the powers of story, it is a way for art in general is a way for us to process just being alive and just generally, so we're always looking for something to just grab on to and story is such a powerful thing. Would you agree with that?

Paul Gulino 45:36
Yeah, well, let me tell you some practical things for your students how to apply that. That was the first lesson that Frank Daniel, I mean, I have it in my notes from the first day of the first class was that your job as a screenwriter is to turn the audience into keen observers of detail, that you are going to give them clues. And when you give them the clues, you do it in such a way that they're going to anticipate where you're going. And once you've got them, anticipating where you're going, you got and you can do all kinds of things with that. And that idea was formula I studied with him in 79 to 82. Okay, in 1985, a theorist named David bordwell, actually took that idea. Now, he didn't get it from Frank Daniele, he did it himself. He came out with a book called narration in the fiction self. So there was a very influential narratology in the study of narrative in academic world, and he applied constructivist psychology to how we comprehend movies, that in other words, we're not sitting back in just absorbing, we're actively involved in anticipating. And that's how we go through life. I was telling you about how we assume things about the world. Well, I can give you clues. I could tell you a simple story now. And it's like that. Suppose I show you a movie. You're watching a movie, and in this movie, you have a man, and he goes to a flower shop. And he gets flowers, and he puts on the on the flowers, Happy anniversary, and he gets a box of chocolate, okay. And he's, he goes, he's heading home. Meanwhile, his wife gets up, you know, she gets herself all attractive, and negligee and all that, and at home. And then she gets out a gun. And she puts the gun in the drawer of the nightstand. Okay, so where are we going with it? I just tell you that much. You got a pretty good idea that he's planning to make love and she's planning to make war. Okay. That's how it's going to read. I can pretty much assume that there may be some people who think, well, I really have no idea what's going to happen. But I think most people are going to say, shit, he's have a lot of trouble. Okay, so then he comes home, and presents her with the flowers and chocolates, she reaches for the drawer opens it up and says Happy Anniversary that turns up. He's a gun collector. And this is the gun that he's been hoping for. And she's been saving for a year to get him this gun. Okay. We have a twist, we just, I just told two stories, the one you thought you were seeing and the one you're actually saying, right? That's all twisted. But I rely on giving you clues. And assuming that the audience is going to put them together. Now then I then she takes a piece of chocolate, she gets sick. And and then it turns out he poisoned stock. Okay. There's another trip, I give you that information. I just I decide what information to give you and what to withhold. And that's one of the things that Daniel mentioned. He said, there's really three questions when you're developing a story. When you're in the ideation stage, and you're trying to figure it out on the outline stage, be cheap. The three questions are of course, what is the main character want? What are they trying to avoid? Okay. The second is, what does the main character know? And what is the main character not know? And the third is what does the audience know? And what is the audience not know. And based on those three things that's going to determine how your story plays. And a story can be. It's, it's a difference between the story and the telling of the story are in narratology terms, terms, the narrative, which is the story and the narration, which is the telling of it. Another example I could give you. There's this there's this man, he's at the doctor, right? And he tells the doctor, I'm really worried about my wife. I think she's getting Harvard here. Okay. And, but I'm afraid to bring it up with her because she's concerned about you know, maybe she'd be offended. I'm getting older and all that sensitive to a doctor says very simple. Go home tonight. Get a certain distance away, talk to her in your normal voice and keep getting gradually closer until she can hear you. Right. And then you'll know if there's really a problem because if there's no problem, you'll know. So it goes home and she's over in the kitchen and he's in The living room, you know, the doors open. And he's sitting on the couch and he just says in his normal voice, darling, what's for dinner? Okay, so he gets up and he goes to the edge of the kitchen when the door is open, he says, normal voice, darling, what's for dinner? Nothing. So then he goes into the right into the kitchen. Darling, what's for dinner? Nothing. So finally it gets right behind her, and says, darling, what's for dinner? She says, for the fourth time chicken.

Like, alright, the story was a man is hard of hearing. But he thinks that his wife, who's hard of hearing, the doctor tells him to go home and do this test, he does a test, and then discovers that it's actually he's one of those artists here. If I tell it that way, you're not going to go, it's not going to go anywhere, right. But if I withhold certain information, I tell you the same story, but it plays differently. So that's one of the elements of constructivist psychology you can play with. And it's it's a, it's useful to realize, too, that audiences don't. When they go to a movie, they don't see a story they see seen at the scenes, and they construct the story based on the clues you give them in the team. That's all they ever see our feet, what they create the story in their minds. And knowing that you you realize you have this power that you can manipulate. Anyway, I'm sorry.

Alex Ferrari 51:30
The the the master of this of suspense, of course, is Mr. Hitchcock, which, and as you were saying the story I was thinking of psycho, which was a perfect example of that he played on the audience knowledge of Janet Lee as a big movie star. And they thought and they went down this road with her. And they're like, well, she's, I mean, obviously, she's the movie star. Nothing is going to happen to her. And 20 minutes in. She's gone. You know, sorry, spoiler spoiler alert, guys, she gets killed in the shower scene. Yeah, she gets killed in the shower scene. So now the audience has nobody to hold on to. And now they're handed over to this weird dude at the hotel motel. And now he becomes the main character in the middle which was completely revolutionary at the time and you know, West Craven did it again with the scream in a smaller way at the beginning of scream as well. They do that like just kill off the the but but the thing is that they carriage you along. And it was this whole narrative that he the whole narrative that he was talking about, like the money and she was running and then the cop pulls her over. And it was all Bs, is it he was completely leading them down the wrong way. Like, no, we're just gonna kill her. And now it's really about this. That's brilliant storytelling.

Paul Gulino 52:50
He played the audience. And I think that's a great example. I'm glad you brought up a great example about I know you had another guest though a while ago, and said, Carly glacius. I think he said he echoed what I what I think is that, if you if you think about rules, because you always hear here's the conversation. I hear the film school all the time. Because it's like, somebody we watch us a student film, and it's kind of underwhelming and somebody says not that are our students always have breakdowns,

Alex Ferrari 53:18
obviously. Obviously,

Paul Gulino 53:21
university for God's sake. All right. So somebody will say, Well, you know what, they really got to learn the rules, you know, filmmaking storytelling. And someone else would say, Yeah, but you got to break the rules. And then someone else will say that you're gonna learn the rules before you break the rules. And then somebody else will say, how about lunch? Let's go to lunch. I love it. You know, it just goes, this conversation never goes anywhere. Or I'll hear someone say, Well, he broke the rules. But he was Hitchcockian a breakthrough. What does that mean, that doesn't help you as a writer? Well, if you don't, instead of asking, what's the rule, ask what's the effect? See, if you follow the rules, and I've seen students do this, they'll follow every rule, and they want me to go like this. Hey, congratulations, you follow the rules? The rules don't apply to you. And they don't pay you. And, and following them means you're a follower. But if you ask, what's the effect of my choice, storytelling choice on the audience, then that puts me in the power position, I'm the one deciding the effect. And audiences do applaud, and they do pay for it. So think about what's the effect of what your choices are. So for example, with psycho is a good example of a schema, you just mentioned the schema if you have a major star, and audiences are used to seeing major stars in movies, and they're used to seeing them all the way through the movie, they may die at the end, but they're used to seeing them all the way through the movie. And the producers who paid money, a lot of money for that car, they want to wait to the movie to get their money's worth from it, then that's what the expectation is gonna be. So and another thing we talked about how audiences can To a main character, well, you use that as a way in a traditional drama, not like an ensemble, but it's a drama, like a traditional drama with a single protagonist, that that's where the audience connection. So you're going to keep them interested because that person is alive. Okay, so you have a lot of powerful things going on. And then, but then if you violate that, if you break that, like, like Scott did, the question isn't, he was bad because he broke a rule, it's hard to get away with that. He didn't have the connection to the main character sustained audience interest through the movie. So what did he do instead? And what he did you mentioned, he dwelled and he did it intentionally. He dwelled for a long time on getting the base to cover it up. And he really took a long time, they could have just caught away, and it's all cleaned up. But he washed it out. And he's cleaning it up. And he's doing this and he's barely putting the body in there. And it's now by that time, we've connected to somebody and we've connected to a young man who's desperately trying to cover up something his mother dead. That's the story. And we're or

Alex Ferrari 56:15
is it? Or

Paul Gulino 56:17
is it a path? What do you know what you think? And I'll give you one more example of the of how, you know the contrast between following rules and, and going for effect, okay. Let's say you wanted to write a book about how to tell a mathema joke, right? What would you do, you would go around inside every Knock Knock joke you could find. And you would come to some general conclusions about it, you would write the book, and you would say, in order to tell a mathematic joke, you have to have you start out by saying Knock knock, the other person will say who's there? Then you give a partial answer. And then they say partial answer who would repeat it back? And then you give the full answer with a choice. That's how you do it. Those are the rules. Okay, so let me let me try this. Knock, knock.

Alex Ferrari 57:08
Who's there?

Paul Gulino 57:10
control freak. Okay. Now, here's what you say, control freak who think that, right? I just broke the rules. But I didn't. What the effect I wanted was a laugh, not talk rules. So I relied on the team of Knock Knock joke, to get the effect I wanted, which was the laugh rather than to simply deliver another knock that joke of a different Thank you. But so this is the world of prank Danielle got me into which is playing games with the audience. And ultimately, strategizing on how to keep the audience wondering what's going to happen next. And if you can do that, if you know how to do that. You can do anything with them in a feature film. And you can pivot into streaming, you can pivot into stage, one x 10 minute plays, what it doesn't matter, you understand what, how to grab them and how to keep them, it puts you in a real power position. So we were not taught, like, by page 30. This by date 60. This by page 90, they weren't really taught that or we were discouraged from following formula. Actually, the one formula we were told to follow was stories about exciting people told in an exciting way. You know, if you if you use that formula, you're asking the right questions, what's an exciting character? And what is how do you tell that story? That way? It doesn't mean that you're not going to see the patterns, because often you will. And if you don't have any other resource I know, I know a really successful very good writer who learned from fifield says read the book, and she's done one and I'm saying I've analyzed the films for the class, and they're like, terrific. So it's a tool that can help you. We were just taught in a different world where you're thinking about how it's affecting your audience. And yes, we Frank Danielle, did the three act structure that I hear people say well Sinfield give up a three act structure. There was actually a book that came out the year before screenplay that espouse the three act structure, but it just didn't catch on. I forget what it was called. But Frank, Danielle 79 has been talking about it for years. And, of course, you can trace it, you can trace it to Aristotle. It's it becomes explicit. There's a book called playmaking by Archer to get the guy's first name came out in 1901. Lightning, and he described essentially a three act structure. He said plays tend to be five acts, but it really three, you know, set up developing resolution. It's been around a while, but as I say, it's really we, the way I approached it, it's a tool for getting up into this mode of hope and fear, which is what sustains our interest. And then you go from there. So if you want to use that tool, use it.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:10
Your brain, it's exactly what you're saying is like, if it works for the outcome that you're trying to achieve, then use it if you want to use a hammer, or if you want to use an iPhone to get that that nail in the into the wood while you're building the house. It's your choice, one tool probably will do it better than the other. And is that less expensive, but whatever works for you, that makes sense for you and what you're trying to achieve. You should use I'm not sure if that analogy works or not. But

Paul Gulino 1:00:38
yeah, well, I mean, if you want to destroy your iPhone, then that's what you you use the iPhone or the hammer, you know, the hammer, you say for other jobs, right? Maybe a hammer

Alex Ferrari 1:00:49
or a wrench, let's say a wrench, you could use a wrench to get it in as opposed to a hammer. But the hammer is better prepared to you know, better built to do some kind of job. So I think all these tools, all these methods, all these techniques that all of these authors and gurus and and just teachers from throughout history have thrown on us. That's exactly what they are their tools, their techniques, and they put them in your toolbox and you bring them out to achieve the what you achieve what you want to achieve. Yeah,

Paul Gulino 1:01:21
yeah. And there's other tools too, that I've talked about with the students that that I've noticed filmmakers use to keep us wondering what's coming up next. And sometimes you can sustain a whole movie with him. Sometimes you really can't you need to help other tools. But something like what Frank Tanja used to call advertising, I don't like that term, I use telegraphing. It's essentially telling the audience literally where the show was going. Because a drama, unlike a novel, novel have usually there happened in the past, you got a narrator that tells you drama, since Greek times was something that was about to happen right in front of you. And they were both they've been written to the present tense their instructions for actor and that set people about what to do for something you're going to create right in front of the audience. And so it's particularly important to keep the audience attention in the future anticipating and so you can have something called an appointment. You've seen it use a movie, you know, Micha Jerry's use a terrier five o'clock. Yeah. And then because film is selected, you don't just turn the camera on and run it, you cut to different places, when you arrive at Jerry's carrier, the that confused about that? You know, you don't know, you know why you're there. So you maintain anticipation. And also, you're not coherent. Another one that can be used as a deadline, called a deadline, or a ticking clock, you know, you've got five days to bring the Duke back, you know, by midnight Friday, or you're uncooked, you know, that, you do that. And it's done in toy store. You mean from the get go? These guys knew what they were doing the original one. It's the birth, the move is in a week. Right? So we know that we have one week that this story is going to take place in a week. And that helps us because we've all I think have the experience of being in a movie where you thought it was over. And then it just keeps going. keeps going.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:25
That would be the end of Lord of Rings, Lord of the Rings, eight endings, and we're just like, Are you kidding me? Peter, come on, let's move on.

Paul Gulino 1:03:34
Yeah, I remember I had a friend a bunch of us, like we're teenagers went to the, to the opening of the first one, you know, get together in the theater, a bunch of colleagues, and one of them had, just before the movie started, you got one of the big Gulf waters. But you know, I said, You're not gonna make it. There's no intermission. I was right. Anyway. See, the problem is that the filmmaker hasn't signaled properly when the big moment is because we do emotionally save ourselves for these big moments. And so a deadline can help with that. But you put a framework around it. The one that I like the example I like to give it. But instead American Beauty where it starts out with a year I'll be dead. Right? There the deadline for you. Yep. So what it does is it it lets us it lets the audience relax and not wonder where this is going. You don't want to be wondering where it's going. You want them to be anticipate. So if you tell them where it's going, Okay, let's get there. Yeah. And

Alex Ferrari 1:04:27
that's what it's like. So American Beauty is a great example. I love doing this with movies. I did it with my, my, my last movie I directed, where I show a scene that's far from inside the movie closer to the end, at the very beginning to let everybody know, Oh, hell, this is gonna we're in for a treat. And you're waiting for like, you know, either there's a meltdown or a murder or something happens. And you know, it's not a surprise that there's a murder. We all know that someone's going to get killed, but like, who did it and when are we going to get to that point and now Now you're on the ride with him. So I love that technique as

Paul Gulino 1:05:05
Sunset Boulevard with my students.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:09
It's a great player. I mean, if you remember the player, there's so many of those, that technique is so powerful. If you do it properly, you you show that that little bit of information at the beginning you're like, what do you mean someone's gonna die like and then all your into now you're completely connected to these characters? Like, when am I going to see that? When am I going to see the tiger come out? This is basically where we've, we've been informed that the tiger is there. And he killed somebody. And we're like, Where is the tiger? When is this? When is the hammer gonna drop? And I love that I love speaking of suspense, because again, I'm a huge Hitchcock Hitchcock fan, and I never, I've never heard anyone Express explain suspense better than Hitchcock. Which is the the bomb underneath the underneath the table? Can you tell that story?

Paul Gulino 1:05:57
Oh, yeah, that's the idea is that you can stay in suspense longer than surprised, is the effect of surprises. 15 seconds, I think. suspense, maybe 15 minutes. So the difference would be that if you have two people sitting in a cafe talking, and then a bomb blows up, okay, you have a shock effect. But if you reveal to the audience, ahead of time that there's a bomb under the table, then every line of dialogue is imbued with this dramatic irony. And every line of dialogue has a double meaning. I mean, when somebody says, Do you think I should get another coffee? Well, I'm not sure you know, I'm tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. Suddenly, that innocuous line has a huge impact. And that's another one of the tools is dramatic irony. I have to let my students know, you know, the characters don't have to know everything all the time. You can, you know, reveal things and just not them see certain things.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:55
But what was the big rule? But what was the big rule that Hitchcock said that you cannot break when doing that technique? Do

you remember?

Paul Gulino 1:07:03
Oh, no.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:05
So the technique of suspense is he goes, he did it once in a movie, and the audience was very, very angry at him, which is you show them the bomb, and it's ticking. But under no circumstances can that bomb go off and kill the characters? You cannot let that happen. He goes, because the audience will be very angry with you. If you kill them actually, like surprise, that's fine. But if you tell and you torture them for 15 minutes, and then you still kill them, then you lose the audience. And I was like, that's it. He was he did it in one of his early movies. I forgot his foreign correspondent or something like that, where there was a bomb on the on the bus. And we knew the bomb was on the bus and it was ticking and it blew up. And everyone was like, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, you can't. There's a contract. There's a contract. We have an agreement here. You can't do something like that. So you know, that's a rule that I haven't seen broken very often. I mean, in a suspenseful situation. in that specific scenario, you can't blow up the characters. You just can't.

Paul Gulino 1:08:05
Yeah. Because you know, I happen to have a script right now that I'm working on, where I killed out characters, I'm gonna change that change it

Alex Ferrari 1:08:12
right away. Mr. Hitchcock said, No, I'm gonna ask you a few questions, because I could keep talking to you, Paul, for about another two, three hours. But I know you're busy man. You've got fresh minds, you have fresh minds to teach. So I want to

Paul Gulino 1:08:26
I want to say one more thing about the deadline thing. There are a couple of movies that they do that you I've seen that sustain an audience interest and those primarily through that purpose through that means one of them was The Hurt Locker. Now that's a that's a huge I don't know if you saw that. But it's a countdown. So the screenwriter there is he seems to be able to write these micro realistic scenes were very vivid. But it freed him to just explore these different situations. As long as we're reminded once in a while that we're ticking down to day zero. And we know it's going somewhere. So we

Alex Ferrari 1:09:03
like high noon, like High Noon eventually. Yeah,

Paul Gulino 1:09:05
I do another one 500 Days of Summer didn't go exactly North but eventually when you know that when you get to 499 the movies almost so you know or Julia Julia You know, there was Yeah, different recipe every day when you get the recipe 350 we're close to being at the end. So you can do that to frame things and then it frees you to to explore other kinds of drama. Anyway, okay,

Alex Ferrari 1:09:31
it is a it's a kind of roadmap for the audience like at the end of it like at 12 o'clock all Hell's gonna break loose at 365 recipes. We're pretty much gonna be close to the end of this thing. So it's kind of

Paul Gulino 1:09:46
chocolate cake by that point. You know the really rich prospect but perfect.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:50
So perfect example with Julia Julia which I love that movie. By the way, imagine if you've made that agreement with the audience at the beginning and at the at the at the A 365 she's like, you know, there's another book I'm gonna do and you go on and like, and that's like, and you just, she's just like, you know, I want to do another blog, and I'm just gonna end that's in the movie keeps going. Can you imagine that movie would be horrible? You'd be like, No, no, no, no, we there was an agreement here. You can break that you can break that agreement here and there. But you've got to be careful with how you do it. You know what I mean? That may suffer. But I could just thinking how horrible that movie would be. Like, let's say high noon, at noon, they're like, four o'clock. We're just not we're

Paul Gulino 1:10:32
a bit late, right?

Alex Ferrari 1:10:35
Where we did a shoot out here, but there's three other guys coming at four. So we're just gonna keep going. Like you can't.

Paul Gulino 1:10:45
You've got to keep that promise or people will turn on you without question.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:50
So I'm going to ask you a few. A few questions. I asked all my guests and what's specific to you? That I've never asked before the show and I want to I'm going to start asking all of my guests. What are three screenplays every screenwriter should read

Paul Gulino 1:11:03
three screenplays that every screenwriter should read? Boy. You know what I so closely identify the screenplay with the movie button, you know the style of like, I consider Billy Wilder like the guy who could teach me any of his movies. It's like a textbook on how to write a screenplay. But the screenplays that he was writing, were done. They were called continuity. And this thought was very different. Or Preston Sturges I love Preston circus. Yeah, if you're going to read a screenplay and really enjoy it, any of the Preston Sturges comedies from the early 40s will get you there.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:45
And also of his travels, also of his truck, yes.

Paul Gulino 1:11:48
All right. But just be prepared that it's not going to be in the master sequence, Master scene format, it's going to be in the continuity with the sequences marked, you know, sequences a through whatever they were doing. Okay, the screenplays that I've loved, if there's the one screenplay, and one of my favorite movies, is called trouble in paradise. Number 1932, the first talkie romantic comedy, and arguably still the best one. And it's in. It's in a book called three screen comedies by Samson raphaelson. So you can actually get that book and read that and I happened to read that script before I saw the movie because the movie was finished when I was young, you know, we didn't have VHS, we couldn't get the movie. It was tied up somewhere. So I had to record. But but that script was so you can see this students every step of the function. See this? It's, it was one of these, it's one of my pet peeves about a lot of films I see nowadays. It's about how the third act is like, usually too predictable, because there's a misunderstanding of what the third act is. But that's another podcast. But in this one, for example, what is that I'm reading this and I'm turning the pages of this comedy. And I have no idea how they're gonna solve this problem. I think that's it. Yeah. It's like, all these different elements are coming into play. It's like, no, there is no way for this guy to get out of here. You know, it's not even can you run faster or jump higher. It's like, running faster jumping. That's not going to even help out here. He's, like, trapped anyway. So that's raphaelson one of Raphael Sims, Billy Wilder. Double Indemnity is a terrific one. Because you can learn about indirection with a dialogue. You know, what a lot of people call subtext, I use a slightly different term. But how the characters are speaking metaphorically. So they don't have to reveal what there really, is there. Is

Alex Ferrari 1:13:47
there any movies in the last, let's say 20 years in the 2000s? that that that screenplay, you're like, man, you've got to read this.

Paul Gulino 1:13:57
I don't know if I've, I've seen some good, obviously, some really good movies, but I scripts I've read no recent movies that I read recently anymore. Which kind of breaks the rules a little bit is in Bruce. I'd like to show that after I show a classic like Toy Story. I mean, I've read the script. It's a great script to read. But it's I think it's a conforming script. It's one that they wrote after the the animation is a little different. They when they get to the end, then they write the script that is that maybe the you know the stars are gonna actually read because it's linked up to that thing, but that's alright, that's 25 years ago now that was

Alex Ferrari 1:14:39
fair enough. You know, I don't want to put you on the spot. It's fine.

Paul Gulino 1:14:42
But I've read know the in Bruges is very literate. I liked it. But he I'd say the script was flawed compared to the movie because the the I think it was interesting.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:53
It's always interesting. Sometimes the script is so much better than movie and sometimes the movie is so much better than the script. Right? He

Paul Gulino 1:14:59
definitely cut Some things out of there just like Well, everybody does. I mean, I don't even know if you know if you know, Sunset Boulevard, there was an opening there that was cut out. Did you know that? No, I didn't. Yeah, it starts out in the morgue. With him talking to the other dead bodies. I'll explain. Well, how'd you get here? Well, I'll tell you my story. And when they test screened if they shot it, when they test screened it, they found out that people were laughing too hard. And then they didn't know how to take the rest of the movie. They thought it was straight up comedy. Well, I

Alex Ferrari 1:15:29
mean, they said to a body talking to other bodies, and yeah, I mean, right.

Paul Gulino 1:15:34
So that you can read the script, I think, no, I'd never read. I'd never got to read that version of the script. But anyway, in bruises, very literate. That's a good script to read, I think. But, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:15:49
that's plenty good ones. That's, that's plenty. That's plenty of homework for everybody.

Paul Gulino 1:15:54
Okay. Now, what

Alex Ferrari 1:15:55
advice would you give a screenwriter wanting to break into the business today?

Paul Gulino 1:16:00
Yeah, well, that is probably going to sound familiar to you and the other guests, but obviously reading screenplays, I've you asked about reading screenplays, I have read that many lately. But when I was when I was younger, when I was learning, that's what you do. You have to read the screenplays and find out how they read and what, you know, how things are expressed. So you read a lot of those, and then you write them. And you just keep writing. And I am the the persuasion that you write what you're really passionate about without concern about marketability. I mean, yes, you wanted to connect with people. But the there's another teacher I've heard interviewed, named, let's see, he talks about the Pitch Perfect, authentic script, that's the term he uses. I think it's a great term. The pitch perfect, authentic script. That's the one that's very unique that the the that is really your original voice that connects with people that don't be afraid of that, you know, write the things that are really exciting to you. And so doing that, and then just again, the same in history that's opened up you're talking about, I'm encouraging the screenwriters to take initiative and make their stuff. Make Yes,

Alex Ferrari 1:17:22
yeah. And nowadays, you definitely have the power to do so.

Paul Gulino 1:17:26
You if you wanted to do it in 1965, the other 260 millimeter black and white, think, sound and pray. And now you can choose something that they can't really tell Is it done with a million bucks, and you make it look good. Now you can look, don't worry about the gatekeepers to it, and you are going to learn and I'm doing a class though experimental class where the students were all writing queries, you know, the could be thing with five that we're doing five to seven minutes, they're doing seven to 15 minutes. But each student Right, right, seven minutes of a, of a continuing story that we're trying to the audience, and then we shoot it in January and see if it plays, you know, and get them. My hope is that, eventually develop it in a way that students leave film school with a credit on something that people maybe have seen. You can, right now the model of film school is make a short film, send it to festivals and pray because there's a market for short films in 100 years, it went out in the teens, when we went into features and cereal. The original cereals were actually what we call babies, now, they're about 1520 minute episodes. And that's what we're going to come back to that they can go they can do that, and have something marketable anyway, that that suggestion would be good to go, you could still do these things and and i think you get recognized that way and draw attention to yourself. And I do think this great many opportunities now than there ever was.

Alex Ferrari 1:18:59
What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Paul Gulino 1:19:06
Okay, so given that, the without trying to sound mysterious, it's understanding that you can, you can be living two lives when you think you're living in the one you're in. You know that you will learn this lesson that something you thought you knew you didn't really know. And that it you reassess how you how you understand saying, No.

Alex Ferrari 1:19:34
Now what did you learn from your biggest failure?

Paul Gulino 1:19:39
Learn from my biggest Oh, I'd like to tell you, I've had plenty of those. So I mean, this is a rich experience. same person I like. You've heard of the Duke of Wellington, the guy that beat Napoleon. He has a quote that I like to use frequently. If he wasn't always a winner. He had this disastrous campaign. paid in Spain a few years before he beat Napoleon, the Waterloo. And he commented on it. He said, Well, I learned what not to do. And that's always something. And the biggest lesson that I've learned from that he said from a failure,

Alex Ferrari 1:20:18
yeah, what's the What? What did you learn from your biggest failure?

Paul Gulino 1:20:22
I learned my biggest failure to, I guess the biggest thing would be to relax and focus on what you really want to make. And, and, and do that, you know, because I remember the experience was that out of film school, I developed a thesis screenplay, you know, and it actually got recognition. And it got me a William Morris agent. And I was like, this is really great. I'm on my way. But then, when that didn't sell, you know, he was like, Hey, what's the next project? And suddenly, I was in a different world, because I felt like they were watching me, like, and I was being I was trying to create, under these circumstances of desperately, you know, and it changed my process, I didn't know enough to just say, whatever, I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do, and you'll like it or not. So that that was a failure. That was an opportunity that was met. And it was.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:22
Now what was the what was the fear that you had to overcome to write your first screenplay? Was that big fear that you had to overcome?

Paul Gulino 1:21:31
Oh, the biggest fear to overcome when I was writing that first screenplay, I suppose whether I had enough story, you know, remember, I was under the guidance of a master? Who is that, you know, factor that was not only a teacher, he did produce and write a lot of films in Czechoslovakia and one Academy Award for shop on Main Street 1965. But there's certain decades, so we actually knew the process inside and outside. So I had that, that guy, but still, when I'm just when you're just trying to when I was just trying to get ideas together about how I would do this. You know, what sort of story there I suppose that that might have been it.

Alex Ferrari 1:22:17
Okay. And three of your favorite films of all time.

Paul Gulino 1:22:22
That one, you know that that kind of changes? Depends every day? Ah, I am with it. But I would certainly put the trouble in paradise. Up there. It's defining that movie. Yeah, put it on. I'll watch it again. You know, that kind of movie? I certainly, what else? I mean, there's so many amazing ones. I did, I really think from the point of view of pure craftsmanship, took the first toy stories is a remarkable accomplishment. I was actually invited to give a lecture at Disney Animation a little while ago. And guess what I use that movie. I said, I don't know what process they used to work this. But here, I'm going to show you what they were doing. And it's just in 80 minutes, you know, the stuff that they did? What else if I may I love Lawrence of Arabia. That's another textbook

Alex Ferrari 1:23:23
of cinema in general,

Paul Gulino 1:23:24
a seven month period. I guess that dates me a little older films, but that's dead. So

Alex Ferrari 1:23:32
those are three good ones. Yes, three good ones they've been on the show before. So it's except for trouble in paradise. It is the first time that's been on the show. So but you have very good choices.

Paul Gulino 1:23:41
Now, I gotta tell you problem paradise, written by a guy named Samson raphaelson. I had a chance when I was in college, to take a class with him. He was at he was 80 years old. When he was teaching that class, they would come in with his wife. He was a part of hearing, you know, he would help him a little bit. And he the first class he told us don't think that you're going to you know, get any industry contacts from me because everyone I know is dead.

Alex Ferrari 1:24:13
Right? Why line? That's great. All right. I plan to I plan to do I plan to use that in about 40 years, 40 or 50 years. Now, where can people find you and find out about your work and the books you've written?

Paul Gulino 1:24:31
Well, I the first book I had, which seems to have legs that came out 15 years ago, but it's called the screenwriting, the sequence approach. And we haven't talked much about that, but it's a technique that I learned from Frank Danielle, that one is available. Then the new one is called the science of screenwriting by Tony shares of me and then my website is called right sequence calm Okay, all one word of it, you know for people want to learn more. So,

Alex Ferrari 1:25:06
it has been an absolute pleasure having you on the show my friend. Thank you so much. You have dropped multiple knowledge bombs today, sir.

Paul Gulino 1:25:13
Okay. But they're peaceful, right? They're positive.

Alex Ferrari 1:25:17
They're positive bombs. They're very positive good information bombs. So thanks again for being on the show, my friend. I appreciate it.

Paul Gulino 1:25:23
Thank you. Take care. Talk to you soon.

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IFH 653: Dropping Acid & Winning an Oscar® with Ghost Screenwriter Bruce Joel Rubin

At age five, Bruce Rubin had a spiritual experience playing in a sandbox in the middle of the afternoon. The sun disappeared, and a dense night sky appeared in its place. Infinite galaxies were swirling in the vastness of his own head, and he sensed the entire universe was contained within him.
He knew instantly he was one with all there was. In the years that followed, Bruce became an Oscar-winning screenwriter, a spiritual teacher, and, most recently, a photographer. Each aspect of his life has been a conscious effort to explore and reveal what he learned in that sandbox.

Bruce was born in the middle of WWII and raised in Detroit, Michigan, the son of Sondra and Jimmy Rubin. He has a younger brother and sister, Gary and Marci. There was very little remarkable about him. He wanted to be an actor, writer, and director but had no talent to speak of.
In 1965 he took a massive (and accidental) overdose of LSD and began a journey that lasted between 3 and 4 billion years. When he returned, he knew he would have stories to tell. He also knew he needed to find a teacher, so he hitchhiked around the world for nearly two years in search of one.
After living in ashrams in India and in a Tibetan monastery in Kathmandu, he met his teacher Rudi in New York City just blocks from where he had begun his journey. Rudi taught a meditation practice that became the foundation for Bruce’s spiritual life. He has meditated every day since. 
Bruce’s screenwriting career began late in his life. Earlier, he had been an assistant film editor for the NBC Nightly News and Curator and Head of the Film Department at the Whitney Museum in New York. When Rudi died, Bruce gave up his museum career to continue his spiritual practice with a disciple of Rudi’s in Bloomington, Indiana.
While there, he was also writing movies, twice locking himself in a hotel room and refusing to emerge without a finished script. He also began teaching meditation to an expanding community of fellow seekers and continues holding classes to this day.
After 44 years of daily meditation, Bruce experienced what is referred to as a spiritual awakening. For him, it was a revelation that no one could awaken. The illusion of a separate ego dissolved and left him in a state of extraordinary emptiness and inexplicable expansion. It was a profound step in a journey that began in a sandbox and continues to this moment.
Bruce continues to share his evolving experience with his students. His talks can be found on YouTube and on his site. Recently, he also discovered photography as an unexpected opportunity for communicating his spiritual vision.
The result of always having an iPhone in his pocket, he describes this new phase in his creative life as the discovery of seeing. As Bruce explains, “The mystery and magic of the world are not hidden. It is under our feet, on old walls, and in rusting garbage cans. The beauty, the wonder, never ends.”

Please enjoy my conversation with Bruce Joel Rubin.


Originally aired on my other show, the Next Level Soul Podcast with Alex Ferrari. What is NLS?

Next Level Soul founder Alex Ferrari is a #1 best-selling author, podcaster, speaker, conscious entrepreneur, and award-winning filmmaker. His industry-leading podcasts, the Webby award-nominated Indie Film Hustle, and Bulletproof Screenwriting, have been downloaded 30 million+ times collectively.

He has had the pleasure of speaking to icons like Oscar® Winner Oliver Stone and Billy Crystal, music legends like Bruce Dickinson (Iron Maiden) and Moby (Grammy® Award Winning Music Icon), actors like Guy Pearce (Iron Man 3), Edward Burns (Saving Private Ryan) and Eva Longoria (Desperate Housewives), thought leaders like Rich Roll (Best-Selling Author & Ultra Endurance Athlete), 2X Noble Prize Nominee Dr. Ervin Laszlo, Mindvalley Founder Vishen Lakhiani, and New York Times Best-Selling authors Dan Millman (The Way of the Peaceful Warrior), Neale Donald Walsh (Conversations with God), Bruce Lipton (The Biology of Belief), Gregg Braden (The Wisdom Codes) Dr. Eben Alexander (Proof of Heaven) and Dr. Raymond Moody (Life After Life).

Alex always asked the big questions; Why are we here? Is this all there is? What is my soul’s mission in this life? He developed Next Level Soul to help people worldwide get closer to their higher power and look inward for the answers they are searching for.

The Next Level Soul Podcast discusses all aspects of life’s journey; Spirituality, Mindset, Relationships, Health & Wellness, Longevity, Creativity, Business, Entrepreneurship, and Money.

We help answer those questions by having raw and inspiring conversations with some of the most fascinating and thought-provoking guests on the planet today.

Learn more at Next Level Soul Podcast with Alex Ferrari

Alex Ferrari 0:28
I like to welcome to the show, Bruce Joel Rubin. How you doing, Bruce?

Bruce Joel Rubin 0:32
Great thanks Alex doing well.

Alex Ferrari 0:34
Thank you so much for coming on the show, my friend. I'm very excited to talk to you. I mean, I, obviously I've been a fan of your work in the film industry with the films that you've written and directed and been part of, but also, I'm excited about your spiritual path and where you've been going with that throughout your life as well. So, but my very first question I have to ask you is what? How did you know that you wanted to be a writer?

Bruce Joel Rubin 1:00
Um, I don't think I knew that exactly. I had a bit of a skill set. I know, I was reading poetry and fourth or fifth grade, and my mother would read it to my aunt's and they would go, Oh, this is wonderful. And I would feel, you know, filled up by that. But I know I didn't know that I kind of loved theater from a very young age. And I kind of got interested in movies. If I was four years old, but I didn't see film as an art form until I was in high school. I saw you know, the magician seven or magician seven seal, bear in mind, and then some Antonioni, etc. And I realized it was probably worthy. And, and then I just felt, I would like to make movies writing movies was like a doorway to making movies. But there's a whole other step from writing movies to directing movies, or forget writing, just go right to directing. And I have a lot of friends who did that. But I really, I found the doorway for me was a writers door.

Alex Ferrari 1:58
Now, how did you break into Hollywood? Because even in the 80s, little, I would imagine was a bit easier than it is today. But it was still hard.

Bruce Joel Rubin 2:08
I don't know that there's a doorway to Hollywood, I've always told people you have to go through the crack underneath the door, you know, not open for anybody really? I don't know. I mean, I didn't really get a career going until I was in my 40s. So there was no easy path at all. I just, I think the biggest problem, and this is not mine alone is most people's is, what do I write about? What's what's my subject? What's my story? What do I have to say to people, and if it's only that I want to be rich and famous and a Hollywood celebrity, well, you know, take any path you want, in a way. But if, if you have something more than that going on, then then that's, that's different than you then you have a story you have to begin to imbibe, in a sense. And my story kind of arrived in the 60s, my, my roommate, was a very good friend of Timothy Leary, and would go up to Millbrook on a regular basis and do LSD and persuaded me that I should try LSD, SS 1964. And five, I can 65. And he gave me a very big tablet. And he said, When the right night is happens, let me know. And I said, you know, Barry, today's the day, I'm going to do it. And interestingly enough on that very day, the man who brings Timothy Leary, that pure LSD from Sandoz laboratories and Switzerland, arrived in New York City and came to my apartment. And he asked Barry, could he leave this jar of pure acid, LSD, Lysergic acid in my refrigerator overnight before they all went up to Millbrook and Tim Leary. And Barry said, Sure, you can kind of tell where the store is going. Quick and Dirty of it is, I took the 65 milligrams of Berry gave me for a big hit of a trip and nothing happened. So he said, Well, we just happened to have this jar in the refrigerator, and he got a dropper, and he went to give me a drop anyway. And the whole eyedropper 1000s of milligrams of shooting down my throat. And I knew at that moment that there was nothing I could do about it at all. And so somewhere during the next three to 4 billion years, I don't know exactly. I went on a journey that was was remarkable on every level. And I could spend your whole program talking about that, but I won't.

Alex Ferrari 4:40
Please dive in a little bit though, please. I want to Yes,

Bruce Joel Rubin 4:43
Well, it's just the disintegration of everything you know and believe, including who you are, what you are, that you have a life that you have a body that you are existent, separate from anything else. You connect to the big boys to the to the bigger picture in a really massive way and And then you I thought I was dead, I thought I, there was nothing, there was literally nothing left. And then in the middle of nothing, which is also timeless and spaceless, something happened that I can only describe as a kind of impregnation, something dropped into whatever I was, and I divided in half quarters eight sixteenths on and on. And the next thing I know, my fingernail and part of the room is coming back and my elbow and my head and the space I was in, and then this whole thing reconfigured itself in a huge way. And it was completely back to where I had been. And I started laughing and roaring with laughter. And I said, Why am I back, and this voice clear as day and I wouldn't say it was loud, but it was pretty instructive. It said, your back to tell people what you saw. And then I spent the next however many years trying to figure out what it was, I'd had sing, I was given a copy of the Bhagavad Gita, the Hindu song of God, which is an approach to mystical experience. And I discovered, of course, the Tibetan version of that, and then the Judeo Christian versions and Muslim versions, and there was a worldwide network of people with mystical experience I gathered that was my experience in a way that I could begin to grasp with my mind, but what had happened was so beyond mind, and, and I didn't quite know what to do with it. And I began, I hitchhiked around the world for a year and a half. I had a job as a filmmaker, editor at NBC News, I gave that up. And I decided I had to go to India, with a long stop in Greece, before I went, where I was just reading everything in sight of these books aren't doing it. So I continued, you know, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India. I mean, I went this long route, which was wonderful and informative and essential. And somewhere in the middle of Afghanistan, I had a dream that said, you have to make a masterpiece. I had no idea what that meant, or how I would even know if that ever had happened. But it was like a requirement. Then I came back. Well, long story goes on and on. I ended up in Japan having not found anything I thought would be a teacher. I had met with His Holiness, the Dalai Lama for a day trying, thinking I was going to tell him because he was going to talk to the UN what what the Western concepts were of Tibet and Tibetan Buddhism and how ShangriLa like it was going to be but he was so far ahead of me. And in the end, we talked and talked and he was he offered to be my teacher. And I went you know, I just don't think you're my teacher. But find a teacher, would you be open to my coming back? And he laughed and said, of course, which is the first time that ever happened because I've met other teachers who if you don't say now it's over forever. So that was pretty amazing. And, and so I continued with my journey, I did not find a teacher at that point, I ended up in Tokyo. In a record store, the Beatles had just done a record called Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. And there was another record by a group called surrealistic pillow Jefferson Airplane called surrealistic pillow. And Gracie slick sing a song called Don't you need somebody to love? And that was like, that was the end of my understanding of what I needed in life. And I came back to America. And my friend said, you want to meet a girl? I said, Yes. They introduced me to the woman who became my wife. I went home and told her this whole story. I went home to her home. And I said, Do you want to be with me for the rest of my life? She said yes. Which is kind of shocking and amazing. 55 years at this point, there's a lot more than story than this, obviously. Little tips of the iceberg. The same day I met her I met this guy named Rudy Rudy was a New York City antique dealer with Asian art. I was trying to sell some Tibetan carpets for Tibetan monks I had lived with in Katmandu. He was not interested. He asked what I was doing in India, I said, I was looking for a teacher. He said, Did you find what I said? No. He said, Well, I can teach you everything you want to know. Well, I mean, I saw there was enormous hubris on that I didn't know if I should believe it or not. I went to a class that he conducted. And I sat there and he looked at me and I fell flat on the floor, exploded onto the floor. And every time I looked at him, I go and I started sitting on the floor. And, and at that time, I realized I was gonna have stories to tell. I didn't know what they were, but I knew where they were coming from. And I also knew that the guys upstairs whoever whatever is going on here, whatever name you want to give it, nothing is everything this god you No, some nirvana. I mean, it's it goes on and on. But it wanted to make sure I was committed to this. And I ended up as a film curator at the Whitney Museum. And my teacher Rudy died. And I needed to continue my studies, I thought with a teacher in Indiana, and I gave up my job as a curator. And during the time in Indiana, I wrote a movie called brainstorm, and endless stories behind all of this, but the film got made. And while we were in Hollywood, at the premiere, we had lunch with Brian De Palma, who said to my wife, if you want a career in Hollywood, Bruce, you got to move here. We were then living in DeKalb, Illinois, where she was a professor of art at Northern Illinois University. I was teaching public speaking. And we were barely surviving, and she quit her job. And she put our house on the market said, we're moving to Hollywood, I had no career, I had nothing but I had written a script called Jacob's Ladder, which for some reason, actually caught the attention of people in Hollywood. And an article came out about the 10 best unproduced screenplays in Hollywood. And for some reason, I've later learned out why it was considered one of the 10 best scripts, and in a way that opened the door for me. And I ended up going to Hollywood. The first agent I got said, just the week before we moved, I can't represent you. Nobody wants to make movies about ghosts. Because I come up with an idea. I had no agent. But somehow, the universe started to click in in major ways. I got an amazing agent who said I was my scripts, why he got into business. And as named Jeff Sanford, and I moved up to Hollywood, and he had worked for me almost immediately, my wife got a job at the Getty charging, they're evaluating their art program around the country, and our life took off. It just took off and then films got done. And, of course, you know, when you do a film, like brainstorm, which had every possible problem that could go wrong in a movie, including Natalie were dying, for it was finished. And I don't consider that a problem, but a tragedy. But But But what I realized is having a film made in Hollywood is not a doorway, to Hollywood, it's like having a child you lost you don't talk about it. And if you make films that don't make money, they don't have no currency in the business. But I did, luckily. And still, to this day, don't know how right this film Ghost. And for reasons beyond me, it became highly celebrated and recognized and financially viable, like the number one film of 1990. How did that happen? I don't fully know. But I do know that that opened the doors for a career. And from that time on, I was working.

Alex Ferrari 13:05
So there's a lot to unpack there. Yeah, that was just like a little snippet of your experience.

Bruce Joel Rubin 13:16
Go ahead.

Alex Ferrari 13:17
Yeah, there's like a lesson, a little snippet of your experience. But the LSD alone, just when you because it's one of my I've never taken LSD. I've never taken the psychedelics, but I'm fascinated with the spiritual implications of the work that's being done now in at Harvard, and many other many other universities around the world are really studying for PTSD and so many other things. The volume, the dosage, you took is, is is insane. Like, that's not that even in a controlled environment, what do they give you?

Bruce Joel Rubin 13:55
I don't know. But I would say 20th Hundreds of what I took something like, you know, I mean, and now there's a lot of micro dosing, which may be a smart move. Also, I should, you should know that the LSD, I was taking this from Sandoz laboratories, you know, it was the pure of the purest of the pure, and it's no longer like that. So I don't, I'm not a salesperson for LSD at all chap, grabs more psilocybin, but even then, I don't know. I mean, you know, all I know is what happened. At that moment in time, everything changed, and my life became a different life. And it somehow impacted me with this need to tell people what I saw, which is, in a way why I even said yes to this interview, because I don't turn down the opportunity to share the story. It's, it's meaningful, I can't I don't want to be a promoter of a drug, or even in the end meditation, you know, I mean, I've done meditation for 5050 some years. I have to say, oh, Ah, I think meditation is wonderful. But most Americans I know are not really geared to tell me why we love meditation, meditation or that lifestyle. So I've reduced all of that. And I'll do this quickly because it's a speech field. But basically, it all comes down to me to be a good person, and be kind. And if you can be reactively kind of people, when everything in you wants to do the other, that can turn things around inside you, that would be similar to what a meditative life would do. In other words, it changes the reaction to the viewer, rather than the doer and the reactor. And if you can become that person, which, interestingly enough, is the key teaching of His Holiness, the Dalai Lama. So I have decided, even though I said no to his teaching, all those all those decades ago, in the end, he truly in a way has been my teacher as he has been a world teacher. But the key teaching is Be nice, be kind.

Alex Ferrari 15:56
So it seems that it just from what you're telling me with, with your experience with LSD, it just kind of just tore everything away all the materialistic, all the concepts, all the programming that you've gotten up to that point, was all wiped away to show you the truth, essence, the truth, the oneness, all of that,

Bruce Joel Rubin 16:16
With no way for the mind to comprehend it.

Alex Ferrari 16:19
It's a different, you're, you're comprehending it on a different level than the mind.

Bruce Joel Rubin 16:22
You're, you're just knowing that.

Alex Ferrari 16:24
Right! Exactly. And that's why I've told people differences, like there's belief, and then there's a knowing, and there's very different ideas.

Bruce Joel Rubin 16:33
And there's another element of more verb, verb, beyond knowing which is being. Right. So one learns to go from the knowing into the being. And in a way, there's a very non dualistic aspect of this, there's not a me and to you or me and a knit, or me trying to do, all that gets gets wiped out. So there's only the beam which is infinite and eternal, and everywhere, around us all the time, almost never proceed by a human mind, which is so involved in the mee, mee, mee, mee sort of idea, and which is programmed to be like that. So I'm not saying it's, in a way a bad thing to be, to be human being and to be a person. And all of that is really an unbelievable gift and full of awe and grandeur and beauty and all these things, you know, but we don't see it. So the sadness about being a human being who doesn't recognize any of that, except maybe on the doorway out, I don't really know, is to miss the boat, you know, and to not find it while you're here. And that's their sadness. And that because this is an amazing thing we're in, you know, yes, beyond beyond and, and it's hard to imagine the world being, in many ways what it is in so many negative ways, because there's a real yin yang to all of it, there's a good and an evil and all those things play out. But there's also the witness, and there's also the state in which it occurs. And being the witness to that state or being one with that state is remarkable. I mean, just remarkable and want something we're all capable of. But, you know, our culture doesn't talk about it at all. We talk about his belief and you know, go to church every, every Sunday morning or synagogue on Friday night or Saturday morning, or whatever your particular teaching is. And, and you know, and I used to do that when I was young, and everything was all about who's wearing what, how are they look beautiful tonight.

Alex Ferrari 18:27
Sunday best, sunday best.

Bruce Joel Rubin 18:30
There was never a sense of anything greater going on. It was stand up, sit down, you know, prep, sing and pray. But But there's more than that. And I don't want to be a proselytizer so I can move on to other topics. But this is clearly the doorway to what became a career. Now, because of that,

Alex Ferrari 18:53
And now that you've told me about your experience, Jacob's Ladder makes so much more sense. I mean, that script, I remember I was working at a video store when that came out. I was working at a store when I was high school or ADA 293. So I recommended Jacob's Ladder, and people were just like, and either you loved it, or you were like, What the hell? What kind of trip was I on? Can you imagine a studio trying to make Jacob's Ladder today? Could you imagine?

Bruce Joel Rubin 19:20
It would not happen. And yet, it's an important film in a certain Yes. And that creates, it really does depict what the Tibetans call the Bardo state, the state that is either right after you die or right as you are on the edge of dying, where you need to fix the mind and the understanding of what you are, who you are, what your life was. It's a it's full of blame. It's full of darkness is full of fantasy. It's full of all these things, but trying to get to the pure center. If you can do that in that period of timeless time and get it worked out which is what Jacob is doing. Basically, you become a, I would guess, liberated free person or at least able to move on into whatever follows.

Alex Ferrari 20:08
Did you? Were you happy with the way Adrian Lin directed that film? And like, because it's such a, it's not an easy film to direct. I mean, that's a it's that script is not an easy script to produce. I think he did a fantastic job. I'm just curious. It's like, did he capture the essence of what you wanted?

Bruce Joel Rubin 20:25
Again, another long story. Yes. On level, yes, we had an immediate disagreement about it, which, in a way, resolved itself on his terms, but probably the right terms. And mine was that I had done a kind of biblical version of that journey. There were demons, very classical demons, Blake, like, imagery, there was a real Jacob's Ladder, like, like this long staircase into heaven. And all these, what Adrian will call Spielbergian touches. And he said, I can't do that. I won't do. And he didn't say that right away. But I, but he did say it. And he said, it's just he said, those are classical images, and people will laugh at them. He said, We have to find another version of that. And he showed me this image of a woman with little growths coming out of her head. And they were very disturbing. He said, those are the horns I want, rather than horns, little little cancerous like growths, that makes people get really uncomfortable. He said, I want it to look like that, that the movie has to be based in physiology of the human being. And it has to have that kind of touchstone for people who watch the movie to become deeply uncomfortable, as they watch it, rather than free to say, well, that's just classical biblical imagery. So he was right about that. And we dialogued about it a lot. And, you know, there was a lot of frustration and some ways on my part as I had to give things up, and story upon story in a way, but I think in the end, he made the right movie. Now, we did some work toward a month before releasing the film, cut out 1/5 of the film, the ending, I heard about that. And, and it was because audience's reactions were no better or worse, when the ending was removed. And the ending was very full of kind of turning the wheel again, you know, it didn't really give new information, but it elaborated stuff. And as I watched it, I realized, you know, you can lose it. And I, in the end, voted with the larger team, to say, drop it from the film. And then if I watched Jacob's Ladder, in those days, I would miss it. But I then watched it 30 years later, not that long ago. And I'd forgotten all about that stuff. And I just watched the movie, and I was incredibly moved by it. I did not expect it. I found its heart was there. And and it didn't miss anything. And it also taught me a lot about writing and about explorative writing that sort of recapitulates things that don't need to be recapitulated. You know, the, the core of our story is a very, very simple thing, really, but very many very, very people who write movies in Hollywood. Don't don't they don't get the simple line of it. And neither neither do producers or executives. It's kind of shocking. But there are some very simple things you need and Jacob's Ladder, Jacob's Ladder, found those and got it on film. And it is a very trippy experience. And I'm told, I don't know firsthand that a lot of kids in college, sophomore year get stoned and watched Jacob's Ladder. It's like a rite of passage. I think that's great.

Alex Ferrari 23:56
That's amazing. Now that other little movie you you wrote in your career ghost you know, I for people listening who are younger. The impact of ghost when it when it came out was it just was everywhere. It was in the zeitgeist, it was pop culture. I mean, how many references of the, the, you know, the, you know, the pottery scene was and you must laugh every time you see them. I mean, the jokes and the spoofs. And I mean, that scene has been done so many times. That what fascinates me about that movie, as well as one of the guys who did airplane is director of ghosts. And I remember in the theater, when his name came up, I'm like, what, like, even then I was like, What is going on? But my first question about ghosts is how did that story come to life because it's so beautiful and so touching. And it's so you know, it just goes along with your filmography so beautifully, but what came what was the genesis that idea

Bruce Joel Rubin 25:00
I wanted to tell the story of a person on the other side of a ghost, who's comes back to try to save a woman he loves and to tell her that he loves her. That was the real kind of the genesis, but I didn't have much of a story. And I was trying to figure out, how do I get that story to work, and I was watching production of Hamlet. And Hamlet has a very big ghost story. And one of the big things is his father as a ghost, comes to him, tells him what happened, and says, revenge my death. And I thought, ah, there I go. That was my that was the gift. So I decided, my guy, Sam wheat, had to discover what happened to him, had to know how to know that he was killed by someone had to find out who that someone was, had to discover that his wife was in jeopardy, and that he needed to communicate with her and save her. And he was dead. And he was a ghost and couldn't touch anything. He was present in her life. He was there all the time. But he was an invisible presence. And he had to figure out how to become empowered. And so the idea of a psychic was came up as someone who you could talk to, and then a friend of mine had this idea that should be it should be a fake psychic, which is a brilliant, brilliant, that changes everything. And then I just started weaving all of that, together into a story. And, and the film started become what's called a four quadrants film, which means it can talk to audiences at every level of kids and adults and seniors. And also that it was sad and dramatic and scary and funny. And it had all those things, working in it, but they worked together. I was of course, worried when Jerry Zucker was proposed as a director, but as you would well, before Jerry Frank Oz was going to do it. And I loved the idea of Frank Oz doing it. But he wanted to erase every single shadow in the movie, because it goes couldn't cast a shadow. I said, Frank, that's not going to matter story. It's going to take over, no one's going to see shadows. I took them to see blade spirit on Broadway. So look at all the shadows. They're taking out of the shadows started to be a budget so far beyond the production capacity, that that we decided to step separate. Milos Forman wanted to direct it. I flew out to Connecticut met a meeting with him very unexpectedly odd kind of experience. His whole idea was that Molly should die at the end, and that she should go off to be with Sam and heaven. And I. And all I could think of was, this is Milos, he's going to call Paramount saying I want to do this movie. He's going to do it his way. I'm not going to have a word of any of mine in this movie. But I wrote ahead to the executive to Lindsay Duran, who was the vice president in charge of this film, and central in my life on many levels. And, and I told her what everything he said. And so even before he called the studio, they said, No, we're not going that direction. But then she called me said, Are you sitting? And I said, Yes. She said, we found a great director for your film. I'm thinking Scorsese Spielberg,

Alex Ferrari 28:18
Right. Yeah.

Bruce Joel Rubin 28:20
She said, Jerry Zucker. And I, and I thought, of course airplane. I mean, I thought all the comedies and I thought, you know, Beetlejuice had just come out. So everybody's, they're gonna turn this into an uproar, approving comedy. But they were, they were very serious about Jerry at Paramount. So they wanted us to get together and I did something which was smart. I think. I arranged to have dinner with Jerry. But I said one ground rule. We can talk about anything except ghost. And he agreed to that. And so we just talked, and we talked and talked and to this day, we talk and we talk this is formed a friendship that was indelible and remarkable and continues. But when we ended up talking about ghost, I wrote 19 drafts for him. And after 10, it was such a different movie, that I was ready to quit. And I thought, we have ruined everything. And then he started to see it through my eyes. And we started bringing it back. And we got another nine drafts. And by the time they were at the 19th draft, it was the right movie, his ideas, my ideas. They had merged, cross fertilize, it was really amazing. And we had the movie we wanted, and it was a good script. And I was very excited about it. And then even in the production, where most writers have told you, no, we don't need you or want you wrong. You're not on the set. Jerry had me on the set every day. And so we were together. And there was a communion between writer and director, which almost never happens. And I think ghost is a living proof that it can be a good thing if you do it.

Alex Ferrari 29:58
And then you know how airing. Patrick Swayze Demi Moore will be Colbert, I mean, those Tony Goldwyn Golan. I mean, just the cast was so perfect.

Bruce Joel Rubin 30:12
We remember Schumann's

Alex Ferrari 30:15
Right! I mean, I mean, Patrick Patrick essentially was dirty dancing at that point. And he was not a he wasn't a bonafide started than Roadhouse a year earlier. You know, he's like, A, and Demi Moore.

Bruce Joel Rubin 30:26
She's really, she was pretty much the the money. She was a yes, but everybody else was over our dead body.

Alex Ferrari 30:34
Really. So you have to fight for Patrick.

Bruce Joel Rubin 30:37
I had to Jerry didn't want Patrick at all. Yeah. And I talked to his agent. And I said, have it here and have him offered to read, have him come to the reading and a suit and tie. And I've been she arranged for me to have a phone call with him. I told him wear a suit and a tie and a jacket and all this stuff, carry a briefcase. And I told him what scenery, which was the end of the movie. And he did all of that. And Jerry was sitting there crying, as was the producer, Lisa Weinstein, me and, and, and Jerry said to me, as soon as he left the room, he said, If I ever say over my dead body, that's what we hired.

Alex Ferrari 31:14
So that was, and it worked out. It worked out.

Bruce Joel Rubin 31:17
It worked out great, I think and what he was not my first choice I was very afraid of over the top kind of performance. And I was very hesitant about it. And I was completely wrong. I just completely wrong. She won the Oscar, Oscar and she was brilliant. She was totally brilliant. I just loved her in that film and just love being around her. So in the end, we were very, very blessed with that movie.

Alex Ferrari 31:40
Well, the thing with will be in her performance is that she kept she that counterbalance of the seriousness. I mean, you That movie was it's such an intense movie, in many ways. Without the breaks of the comedy that she brought, and it wasn't over the top comedy was just just enough to break those scenes up. It wouldn't have worked without a will be it I mean, the whole thing just was a perfect writer.

Bruce Joel Rubin 32:06
We tried it we interviewed a lot of major actresses for that part. And I gotta tell you, I thought I'd written the worst worst part ever. Didn't work out. I mean, every every major black actor in Hollywood, tried out for it, including Tina Turner, who was not an actor. And you know, Alfre Woodard, the unknown, and they all tried out. They're all wonderful, but they were not what we needed. And what B was what we needed. That's amazing. When she came on board, it worked.

Alex Ferrari 32:33
So the movie comes out. It is a monster hit. I remember at the video store, there was white VHS cases, if you remember correctly, that was unheard of. I never seen anything like that. Because it was such a big movie. It's kind of like a marketing promotional thing. It was just a massive, massive hit number one movie of the year. I think Tom Malone came out that year if I'm not mistaken. And it beat home. Well, it was an insanely big hit. Then you go to the Oscars, and you win. What is it like first of all, the World Wind of being in the in the center of that hurricane, the ghost hurricane? Because I mean, and I love that you preface this, this conversation wherever you're going right now with this enlightened path that you've walked, you know, in breaking down everything with that trip that you did in everything that you were, I think ready also at an age to ready for this kind of success ready for this kind of attention. Because it would crush most souls. Most people Correct?

Bruce Joel Rubin 33:29
Oh, you honestly the universe was very conscious in withholding any kind of feedback from me. I would never meet people who saw the movie, except for my family. I was in a cab. In New York City. The guy said what do you do as a screenwriter? What have you written this movie called ghost? It was on every billboard. He said, Oh, I think I heard of that. A woman in line behind me at a restaurant says to a friend of ours you see that horrible movie Ghost. And that's what I got. I mean, that's that's really all I got. And the universe by giving me Hollywood was basically sending me on a track that is really very common for writers which is destruction of ego mind. Because so often they take away what you do give it to other people, other people's voices get in other people's hands get dirty with it, and in the end of the movie looks like what you feel lucky by getting the Oscar I don't know what it meant. It was an odd moment for me. I'd always wanted one since I was a kid, but having it felt like done. Something was done. Now I don't know if that voice that I heard in Afghanistan. Does it do a masterpiece? I don't know if ghost is a masterpiece. I don't claim

Alex Ferrari 34:48
I'd argue. I'd argue it's a beautiful film

Bruce Joel Rubin 34:51
You know, to me. I got this award that said recognition on some level. You went on my bed stand when I got home and never moved It's not highly displayed. You know, you walk into certain offices in Hollywood and all you see are the awards first. I, to me it was the it was getting something done on my journey that needed to be finished. That was really important. I happened when I was on Hong Kong on victorious peak at the end of my round the world journey. And I was sitting up there and something in me again said, done, that I had gone around the world. And somehow I had completed something, maybe from another life. I don't know how that works. But whatever it was, it was done. That was a great thing. Oscar Dunn, put stuff aside, move on, move on to whatever follows. But it's not to sit around and go, Hey, look, look at I am. Because one of the things you realize on the LSD trip, and the Bardo state of Jacob's Ladder is they tear all that away. You know, they just take your whole life away. And there's actually a teaching in Jacob's Ladder, which is really crucial from a 16th century century theologian. And, and he said, if you're afraid of dying, holding on, you'll see demons tearing you from your flesh. If you're open to dying, the same demons or angels, freeing you from the earth, it's a matter of where you have arrived in your life. And that really is kind of essential, and the theologian has named Meister Eckhart. He's a great theologian. But that's really what the human journey is, are you attached to you? Because you don't leave this world with you? They take it they take everything away? Are you able to go like this? Or are you going like that, and that's kind of the human journey. And very few people I know have gotten to this, but you can, my mother in law without any spiritual life of any kind at all, and kind of angry at lots of people and a lot of stuff. Slowly as she lost her mind, and dementia. She arrived at her last words to me, which was silent work. And it said everything. So you don't have to sit and meditate your whole life away. You just have to whatever it takes, because she was a good person, you just have to get to this, you know, and that's really meaningful and valuable.

Alex Ferrari 37:18
That's such a powerful, powerful idea of the demons and the angels. It is such a powerful idea. Because it's the same action. It's just about perspective. Remarkable. So you, as far as once you got the Oscar and you were in town, and everybody's like, you're the best, you're the best. You're the greatest. The ego didn't get out of control you. It was completely. You had it on a lot.

Bruce Joel Rubin 37:44
Okay, a quick story. I'm walking out of the Paramount commissary with an executive. And he's telling me, and this is before the script was starting to happen really was just beginning. He said, You wrote the best script I've ever read in my life. And I went, Wow, a week later, I'm walking out of a commissary, he's in front of me with another guy. And he's telling the other guy, I want you to know, you wrote the best script I've ever read in my entire life. And I went, Oh, that's how it works.

Alex Ferrari 38:15
And they're my friend is Hollywood.

Bruce Joel Rubin 38:17
That is Hollywood. That is Hollywood. There's a lot, a lot to be learned from all of that. And if you want, you know, some people get crushed by it, and just sadness and misery. And some people and I've been one of the lucky ones who get kind of like freed from it. I don't walk around with a night Hollywood identity at all. It's it's so past tense. I'm glad I had it. It was a really it was a great ride. But mostly it's crashing, you know, the things that stuff is taken away and changed and altered. And, you know, you wouldn't believe the ride of a writer in Hollywood. Most people don't. It is brutal. I'm reading an autobiography whether it will ever put it out or not. I don't know. But it really does capture what it means to be that person to be a writer in this business, because I haven't seen any books about it that really it's nothing that talks about that the real heart of what you go through. On the other hand, what an honor to be able to write movies that speaks speak to hundreds of millions of people

Alex Ferrari 39:19
Without without question and one of my other one of the other films in your filmography that really touched me and is the one that you directed My Life with Michael Keaton and Nicole Kidman, and it is, these are these are movies I would never get made today. None of them and most of most of your filmography would never get made today by the studio system. But that's to be said by many people of the 90s and 80s and 90s. But that film is so touching even when I was saw it when it came out. I was still a young man. It moved me now looking back I have children now. I've just like it's a completely different experience watching a film like that. Where did that idea come from? And for that People have not heard about what the movies about. Can you give it like a you know quick little logline about it?

Bruce Joel Rubin 40:05
Yeah, it's simple logline, which if our studio head would say no. The guy who's dying of cancer who discovers that he's going to have his first child, and he will not live long enough to meet that child. And he wants to leave something that will represent who he is to his family, but he has no idea really who he is. So it's a movie of discovering, finding out who he is, and what he can leave for this

Alex Ferrari 40:32
300 million 300 million budget easy.

Bruce Joel Rubin 40:38
I mean, again, 1000s of stories, and it was the most poorly reviewed movie I ever did ever worked on. It was so bad that I went into like a spiraling depression for about nine months. I think it was, I mean, it was really a killer.

Alex Ferrari 40:53
Why?

Bruce Joel Rubin 40:56
People hate well,

Alex Ferrari 40:58
It found it found its audience, it found its audience,

Bruce Joel Rubin 41:00
Because it's found its audience. And it's been incredibly sort of meaningful to me. But the what finally gave it a voice. And it's a story kind of worth telling to other writers in that I went to a party some months after it came out. And a woman came up to me and she said, I understand you wrote the movie in my life. And I said, Yes. And she said, I have to tell you something. My husband died three years ago, and I had a 10 year old son. And he and I were never able to talk about his father's passing. She said, I found out just recently that I have terminal cancer. And the idea of leaving this world, without a dialogue with my son was so painful. But we went to this movie theater and saw this film my life. And my son was sobbing. And we came home. And he sat down on my lap, and we had the conversation that I needed to have in order to leave this planet. So I want to say thank you. And I went and now I knew I made the movie. One or two people. It was it was perfect. I didn't need anybody else.

Alex Ferrari 42:11
But if it happened for those two, I'm sure it happened for many others around the world. And that's why it's found its voice around, because it's not an easy conversation to have at all, and you made it palatable with that story and Michael Caine's performance.

Bruce Joel Rubin 42:28
Talks about it positive, he says, People ask him about that movie more than anything else. You really want to know about Beatle

Alex Ferrari 42:36
Beetle Juice, Batman, all the major things he's done in his career. And he's like that little movie. I did call my life. But he was so brilliant in it. And he was, he was great. He was amazing.

Bruce Joel Rubin 42:47
Nicole was perfect. Nicole Kidman was brilliant. And Queen Latifah got her first big acting job. That's right. That's right. It had it had a place in the history of Hollywood. But not for me. It was like it was it just tore me apart.

Alex Ferrari 43:04
So how did you how did you come out of that? That because look, we all go through that we all have something happens to us that we will go down that dark road? How did you come out of that dark road, even with all the experience and knowledge that you have about consciousness and oneness and everything?

Bruce Joel Rubin 43:19
Rudy was just brilliant, brilliant. He said, a pattern that takes you nine years to work through at one point will occur again and take nine months. And that will occur and take nine weeks, and then it will be nine days. And then it will be nine hours. That'll be nine minutes. And it'll be nine seconds. So be prepared things that can take huge toll on you. And you're allowed to be like this, you know, and I have learned that.

Alex Ferrari 43:44
You know, he's really so right.

Bruce Joel Rubin 43:47
He was totally brilliant.

Alex Ferrari 43:49
I mean, because things that used to like wouldn't tear me up when I was a young man would take me months, then would take me weeks, then take it to now gotten to a point where it takes me seconds for something that would have derailed me for weeks even holding on to grudges and all this kind of stuff. You just let go of it much quicker as you get.

Bruce Joel Rubin 44:10
I mean, not everybody does that. Of course. Of course, if you can and do it. It's a great thing. And I learned a great deal from from that. And every other movie I did. I mean, I'd say a third of the movies that I wrote out made two thirds did not so I wrote a lot of other movies, but actually 1/3 is a fairly good ratio. And, and I and I learned from every single movie that I did, and every one of them taught me a different lesson. I worked with amazing personalities that all have stories behind them. But I really are. I came away with a big worldview. You know that that the Hollywood worldview of Hollywood and people who were highly successful and people who were on the way out the door and in between, but it's like, if you're going to study human experience, it's a great place because it's so blasted at you in a big way. So I'm grateful for that.

Alex Ferrari 45:02
What is the biggest lesson you think you took away from your time working in Hollywood?

Bruce Joel Rubin 45:07
Well, the lesson for me is, it's not an old thing so much as you know, stay humble, and don't think you are the identity that other people might thrust at you. You know, for me, it was it because they're still they're still doing it, I really call it the guys upstairs, and I call him but I got is just as good to work for me or whatever you want to call it, it's still directs me. And it's still very much it humbles me on every opportunity it can, because I see myself as nothing more than a conduit in a voice in a way. And I try to do the best version of that I can do my best scripts were, were taking dictation, you know, and I just follow, I follow what's what kind of I'm being given. I mean, it feels like you're writing and I can see why people think they, they did it, you know, until they can't, and they drink, and they do all these things to try to find our way back to it. But, you know, it's really, it's really a transmission in a sense. And it's working for the human race and for people and for the betterment of being in the world. You know, I mean, I think I personally believe I don't know this as a fact that at the core of this whole emptiness and nothingness that this comes out of the first thing that rises is love. And don't ask me how or why. But I've had that experience and all so many times when they dropped the bottom out underneath me even to this day, and there's nothing there. Nothing at all. And if it was a part of you, that reacts to it, that's the that's kind of go, you know, so if there's a part of you, that goes, Oh, you're racist. And then when there's absolutely nothing, and you just go, Okay, this thing starts to rise up, and it is a rising, ascending, lift up energy. And it starts with love. And then it goes into I mean, quote, beauty, and truth, start to flow into manifested form. And here we are, you know, and I see where it comes from. And I know it goes back to nothing, but I, you know, I don't, I don't care because that nothing is unbelievable. And when it starts to manifest, its beauty is beyond belief. And we are, it's one of its expressions, you know, there probably others way bigger than us and better than us. But we're, we're it's expression. And now AI is this expression. So it doesn't even need a body or a person he's just tapping in. And we were maybe not that maybe here just to create AI, you know, doesn't need food, it all needs electricity. You know, me, maybe a programmer at first, but then it's all you

Alex Ferrari 47:39
Just goes off and runs, it goes off and runs. I find it interesting because I've spoken to a lot of, you know, successful writers over the years. And when you're writing, I think it even as, as me as aren't when I write, the best writing I've ever done is when I feel like I'm not writing. It feels like it's coming through, is there something that you do in your process as a writer to kind of tap into that?

Bruce Joel Rubin 48:06
I get out of the way

Alex Ferrari 48:07
Just like, do you just do show up at a certain time? Do you like is it a routine or do you just a second you sit down you just go

Bruce Joel Rubin 48:15
In writing but but used to be, um, morning was rewrites, which made it easy. So I would sit down and fix what I did the day before and polish it and get in the gear in a way. Somewhere, I put lunch in there. And then the, the the movement and the activity was already in place. And I would create the new stuff in the afternoon. And I would try to write three to four pages a day. And if I did that over the course of 10 weeks, which is usually what you're contracted for in Hollywood, I would have a finished script. It would be a first draft it would need work and all that other stuff. But you know, I wasn't sitting looking over my shoulder being critical as I wrote because then you don't write then you're just sitting there rewriting the same scene 400 times and you don't even really know where it's going. You don't know how it's going to end up. So I think just right just let it out. See where it goes. Be surprised I love to be surprised movie. You know, when it when it happens. I remember when I was writing ghosts and a lot of the movies about how Sam never says I love you, he says did out. Right. And finally he comes back after all of this drama, and is able to say to his lover is the woman he loves. I love you for the first time. And she goes Ditto. I didn't expect her to say ditto. And the minute I was typing ditto, I just burst into tears. I mean, it was like poof, I was just completely taken over by by Molly being Molly not me being Bruce test. It was Molly, and she was writing what she needed to say. And that was incredible. And I get to be the witness of that. You know, I just did it and you know, you beat the characters live in you and they become alive. And then you have this moment that's really so personal and simple. I think a lot of people cried at that moment. And, you know, and so, you know, you're just the first person to get to see it.

Alex Ferrari 50:08
That's, that's remarkable. When you we the stories that you've talked about, and the stories they've written over the years have been about the unseen world is states on your, on your biography. What drew you to that was it again, back to that, that LSD trip that kind of just set you on the path that you like, I need to explore what we aren't seeing and putting this out into the mainstream.

Bruce Joel Rubin 50:36
Yeah, I'm being told to do it. You know, it was just saying, you know, you, you went around the world, you've read, you've looked, you've talked, you've experienced, you've had teachers, get it on screen, but get it on screen for the masses, not for the few, talk to the world, talk to the world, give them some insight. And so my experience is, every movie that I have done, is a sentence. And in the 12, or whatever movies I've made, that got produced, it's a paragraph. And it's all a paragraph about the same thing about the sense of time space continuum, the idea of there being something beyond that we don't understand, and, and that we're all on a journey to find it even funny little movies, like the last Mimzy which, you know,

Alex Ferrari 51:20
I love the last Mimzy such a fun movie,

Bruce Joel Rubin 51:23
I wanted to write for children, but adults came to me telling me how moved they were about that film. And, and, and part of me wanted just to go to children, including like Stuart Little to which I had a very real conception of that would impact little kids. But, you know, I was overruled in many ways on on that. And so some of the things I wanted to sort of plant and seeds may not have gotten planted. But I have learned I've just learned a lot. And last Mimzy was an interesting one, because it had a very strong Buddhist aspect. It's about these kids who find toys from the future. And who are who need to be have their we don't know this till the end, I don't know, shall I give away the ending? It's fine, it's fine. But the ending of the movie is the impregnation of this little creature that they find that will carry the DNA of a pure soul from the past into the future and save humanity. Really. But I that's not in the in the original digital short story called mimsy were the Borg groves that were, it was a TV pilot once for something and I saw it and it didn't have an ending. And I just didn't fit didn't know what it was. And nobody ever went with it. But I remember being like, what was the ending? What was the ending? It turned out, I had to be the one who did the ending. And the way the ending came to me was walking into the meeting at newline. With no idea, but all I could think of was Tibetans, and the Tibetans have this thing when the Dalai Lama dies, they have to find a new Dalai Lama. And the way they determine that is they take all the toys that were part of a Dali Lama's childhood, and they mix them up with all these other toys from other kids. And they go on a search that's led by psychics and people who have some insight. And they go to these new children and the one who picks all of his old toys. That's when they know who it is. And that, that lesson through the Dalai Lama was the one I walked into the meeting at newline with, and I sold it Michael Phillips was there he was done close encounters the third kinds and all these other wonderful films. And Michael got it. He just got it and said, yes, yes. And and somehow I then got the job of writing the movie. It was an eight year process, which

Alex Ferrari 53:42
Bob Shea, Bob Shea was, if I'm not mistaken, he was like, wanted it so bad. Like he really wanted to make it.

Bruce Joel Rubin 53:48
Yeah, he did. He directed it. He and I went to the same high school, which is kind of strange and interesting. But in the month before we were supposed to have this movie shot, he talked to Steve Jobs. And he said, Why is Pixar so successful? What is it about these movies are so successful? And and he said, we cut out everything that's not necessary. And Bob came to me and he said, Bruce, cut 30 pages. And I said, we're about to shoot this movie is, is locked in, we're going forward, cut it up, cut everything, it's not necessary. And he said, you know, he didn't say this. But clearly, I had a lot of Buddhist monks into interfering, if you will infiltrating the film. And I realized they're not going to survive. And I had to pull all of them out of the movie, all the scenes with them and 30 pages of stuff. And the movie came out. And I thought it was going to be so absent of what I had wanted it to be. And what I discovered is, if it's embedded in its core DNA, right, it doesn't matter what you pull out, it's still there. And I was so surprised by that, and so shocked that I I learned all these lessons. And so, you know, I'm not saying that it was right to cut all those pages, but the movie survived. It worked. It was a whole piece of cloth. And I was totally grateful for that.

Alex Ferrari 55:12
And I have to ask you, because you've had this, this effect on humanity with the work that you've done, because like you said earlier, your stories got out to millions, hundreds of millions of people around the world. What does it feel like for you as as a conduit for this information? How do you as your life's work as your life's work? How does that feel? Because you, you've impacted so many people with your work. And the one thing before you answer the one thing that I love about your stories, I've spoken to hundreds of screenwriters, Oscar winners, and starters, everybody. What I find really interesting about your journey as a writer, and as a human being as a soul, is that your work has a thread that connects all of them in how you can connect the last Mimsy to Jacob's Ladder. Is it valid, to say the least, works. But the thing is that you you had a very clear mission on what you were trying to do with your life with your career as a writer to help the world awaken a bit more. How does that feel? It was a was it a conscious effort? Or did you kind of just stumble upon it?

Bruce Joel Rubin 56:27
No, but the reward, the funny little rewards, one was deep impact, and trying to go off and inhibit a meteorite that's coming, or an asteroid to destroy the earth. And there were not a lot of people in this country who were thinking that was a real issue or a big problem, but it is a potential problem. And about two months ago, they actually sent a rocket off, and found that they could deflect a comet on its path to the earth. And I met with a lot of scientists and I met with a lot of congressmen after the film came out, trying to talk about this issue, because I said, and the movie said, this is a real issue. And so when I saw that comment, deflected, I thought, one tiny part of me has helped save, possibly the human race. I don't know. But that's a really tiny little sweet thing. And then I spent sent me an article just the other day out of nowhere, about this guy who's trying to use artificial intelligence to help people who have paralysis, total paralysis, to be able to move things with their mind. And he said the inspiration for him was when Sam wheat in Ghost, Penny up the door and caused it to float. He said, He saw that and that connected in his mind. And he has now created an AI program that is going to be able to is already helping people move things with their mind. And I went, wow. So little things like that. They don't I'm not walking around, carrying a you know, a big placard saying, Look what I did. Look what I did. I have no none of that at all. It's almost like a joke. I mean, I don't know if you this is about in July, the History Channel came out with something that someone sent me, which said, you know, the famous the most important thing that happened on this date in history. And the most important thing that happened on that date in history, which is the 13th of July 1990 was ghost opened and I'm gonna ghost go, that's the most important thing that happened. And I sent that to Lindsay Duran, who used to be the executive of Paramount and she said Murat sob died on that day. What do you mean, the ghost was the most important thing that happened on that day? And I look at it and in a way it's like it is like a laughable thing. I have no idea I don't own it. I don't care it's it was an interesting kind of wonderful ride and I'm grateful for the ride I would I would tell anyone in the world is open to losing their mind and their ego and everything else. If you want to journey into speaking to multiples of people and telling them something that might be worth saying one sentence, then that's that's it's worthwhile life.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:28
And where can people find out more about the work you're doing with your meditations that we didn't even touch on your photography and your meditation and what you teach? And also just to get access to your old scripts and things like that?

Bruce Joel Rubin 1:00:40
I think the scripts are online, I don't I have no idea. I see them every so often to come up to for sale, I don't know who's selling them. I have no idea. We've been teaching this meditation class, and I give talks that are on YouTube under my name, Bruce Joel Rubin. And there are 500 plus, now talk. So if anybody isn't totally bored already, with just what I've had to say, Here, you can check, you can check them out. The class I give is you have to be initiated into the actual practice, you can't just share it in general. So I don't and, you know, Rudy has to be one on one. And I try. And that's what I do. I try to share the practice one on one. But the lessons of that are all on talks, and I give after the classes and and I still teach them I've been teaching every Sunday for 50 50 years, or more and and they're just kind of what I'm learning week by week, you know, and I'm not trying to teach them as any ultimate anything, but they do, I think hope open minds and eyes a little bit to a way of looking that might be helpful.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:14
My friend, thank you so much for being on the show. It has been a pleasure and an honor talking to you and you're such an inspiration on multiple levels, not only in the filmmaking side, but on the spiritual side as well. I appreciate all the work you've done for humanity and for and for good storytelling, so I appreciate you my friend.

Bruce Joel Rubin 1:02:30
It's equal thank you so much.

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Film Crew Positions: Ultimate Guide to Everyone on a Film Set

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Unlike many other art forms, filmmaking needs a film crew of collaborators to bring the art to life. A film’s success or failure depends on the ability of the film crew to make good decisions.

If you are new to filmmaking, you might find it helpful to take some time to learn about the roles of the various members of a film crew and how they can contribute to making a successful film. This article will briefly discuss the film crew positions in a typical production.

Please note: We have added a couple of ridiculous easter eggs for the film and tv professionals in the audience. Enjoy!   

Table of Content (click to jump to the department of your choice)

Above the Line vs. Below the Line

“Above the line” film crew positions are usually found at the very top of a production hierarchy chart. Above-the-line crew members are those who carry the most creative or financial responsibility for a given project and usually work from pre-production to post-production.

They are the ones who make major decisions and are often directly responsible for securing financing.

Most of the crew on a film set is “below the line.” Their job descriptions are varied from department to department. This large collection of film set jobs would be broken down into separate departments. A film crew hierarchy is contained within each of the individual departments and starts with a department head.


Above-the-Line Crew

Film Director

The term “director” usually refers to someone who directs actors on stage, in a movie, on television, or even in video games. However, a film director also directs the other people involved in the production. This includes casting, scriptwriting, and even the special effects and music in the film.

Many directors like Christopher Nolan, Quentin Tarantino, and David Fincher are considered “Auteurs.” Auteur Theory is a way of looking at films that state that the director is the “author” of a film.


Film Producer

film Producer is often responsible for ensuring all the details fall into place for the production of a movie. One key thing to know is that the majority of projects have multiple producers.  Another key thing to know is that there are different types of producers. 

Some focus predominantly on securing funding and/or distribution and/or attaching special assets early on in the development process, in the independent world, while some focus on story and creative aspects of the project, while some focus on specific stages of filmmaking such as development or post-production.

This can include but is not limited to setting the tone of the production (i.e., what tone should the production be set at), picking a director, and finding a cast and crew.

producer also handles casting (finding the actors and actresses, usually in conjunction with the director), organizing the budget, and hiring the staff needed to make a film happen. A film producer usually hires all the professionals needed to create a movie. More commonly, they hire the department heads, which in turn bring the rest of the crew on board.

They make sure that everything’s going according to plan. They might also work closely with directors and screenwriters, especially when making decisions about cost. They typically have the final say on any decisions affecting the final output of the film, for example, the final edit, unless someone like the director is contractually entitled to this.

There are many types of producers. Some producers only deal with the financing of the film, others are development/creative, and some producers are connectors and only find money and/or talent.


Executive Producer

The executive producer is the person who sources and secures the financing for film production. The executive producer’s top priority is ensuring enough money for the project.


Below the Line Crew – Production

Line Producer

During preproduction, often, it is the line producer who generates the full production (sometimes called a line item) budget, as well as breaks down the script and generates a preliminary shooting schedule. The line producer ensures that the movie is shot according to the production schedule and budget.

On the production side, the line producer’s main task is to make sure that the movie is delivered on time and under budget. If it doesn’t meet these goals, he or she will make sure to change things up until the filming is completed.

It’s not a creative role. Typically, it’s all about project management. The line producer hires most of the “below the line” talent and craftspeople. Sometimes they are required to get approval from the producer and/or director for choices in department heads. The best ones make the budget and ensure the project doesn’t go over.

Unit Production Manager (UPM)

On very low-budget movies, this position is often combined with that of a line producer. A UPM or unit production manager manages the day-to-day operations of the film production team (film crew) and ensures that they are well-supported and equipped to complete their tasks.

In other words, a UPM ensures the cast and crew’s safety during production and that the final footage meets expectations. More often than not, this is done in conjunction with one or more of the producers. The job requires great attention to detail.

A unit production manager might also ensure that safety rules are followed during filming. This is because it is vital that the safety of actors and crew is the number one priority, especially when shooting on location.

Production Coordinator

In lower-budget production, this role is often combined with UPM. Production Coordinators are essential for making sure that all the little things happen on a set or in a movie studio. They keep everything in sync and organized on a film set. They ensure that there’s enough food and drinks on set. They check in with various departments to avoid and/or solve minor to medium-level problems.

They ensure that the actors are prepared and managed. They make sure everyone is where they need to be before they begin filming each day on set.

Assistant Production Coordinator

The Assistant Production Coordinator is involved in all aspects of production, from solving problems on the set and distributing scripts to handling everything on set’s logistics.

Set Accountant

The Set Accountant monitors the film production’s finances, making sure that he or she keeps track of expenses and that the production stays on budget. It requires specialized knowledge of how the various departments of a production function on their own, both physically and financially.

Office Production Assistant

Office production assistants’ duties typically include: assisting with answering phones, filing paperwork, and data entry; organizing lunches, dinners, and transportation reservations; photocopying; general office administration; and distributing production paperwork.


Assistant Directors

1st Assistant Director

A 1st Assistant Director (first or 1st AD) is one of many crew members responsible for keeping the set running smoothly. They are debatably the most important crew position that handles this. A 1st AD coordinates various functions on set with the rest of the crew.

They manage the day-to-day operations of the film production, from scheduling cast, crew, and equipment to coordinating with certain department heads as it pertains to shoot schedule. They are typically in charge of safety on set and supervising the shooting of each take.


2nd Assistant Director

A second assistant director creates daily call sheets from the production schedule. The “second” also serves as the “backstage manager”.  They liaise with actors, put them through their make-up and wardrobe, and relieve the “first” of these duties. They report to the 1st AD.

2nd 2nd Assistant Director

The 2nd 2nd AD (often referred to as the 3rd AD outside the U.S.) is the primary assistant to the first assistant director and is responsible for coordinating the work of all the background actors, certain crew, production assistants, and sometimes talent.

Key Production Assistant

This is the lead production assistant on production. Many times they will help the first assistant director and line producer coordinate the other production assistants on a film set.

Production Assistants

A production assistant (PA) helps keep a film or television project’s cast, crew, and production staff organized and on track.

This can include: setting up aspects of the set, taking out the trash, helping cast and crew find their stations, running errands for various departments, making sure that there are enough food and drinks available, and most importantly, taking care of the actors and crew.

Production Assistants, while critical to a well-run set, are not involved in any decision-making of any kind for the film.  It is often considered the lowest rung on the production ladder and hierarchy.  Having said that, it is still important. For someone without formal departmental training, this is a perfect starting position for someone who wants a career in film production.

Having qualified technicians handle equipment helps keep everyone safe.

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Locations

Location Manager

The location manager is responsible for managing shooting locations to be used in a film. This can (occasionally include scouting for locations) include dealing with permits, settling location contracts, coordinating with other departments, and more.

Location managers are also responsible for making sure that the production company, the cast, and the crew all have the best experience possible on set. If the location manager is not properly prepared and knowledgeable, the entire production may fail to meet the director’s vision for the film.


Location Scouts

The location scout’s job is to find the perfect place to shoot. He or she will study the space, read the script, and make sure there are no major obstacles in the way. The location scout will most likely meet with the director and producers to determine if the space suits their needs.

The location scout should also have a keen eye for cost. Because the location scout will be doing a lot of scouting for free, he or she must be able to find good locations for a fee that fits within the production budget. On low-budget productions, this position may be absorbed by one or more of the producers.


Transportation

Transportation Captain

The Transport Captains in your film transport the cast and crew from one location to another by private cars, mini-buses, or coaches. If you’re a low-budget film, you may only have one Transport Captain who makes sure that everyone arrives on time.

Transportation Coordinator

The transportation coordination person will coordinate all transportation needs for the production. Transporting equipment and crew to the filming locations and any other necessary areas relative to the shoot is included.

Picture Car Coordinator

The picture car coordinator is responsible for everything relating to vehicle usage, repair, modification, and movement on the set. They are also responsible for ensuring that the cars are always in good shape so that unforeseen accidents will not interrupt the rigid movie production schedule.

However, this position often only exists are very large-budget films.  Otherwise, this job may be handled by either the head of the transportation department, a member of the art department, or a producer.


Sound

Production Sound Mixer

A production sound mixer typically works with audio engineers and directors to ensure that the soundtrack of a film production is in sync and properly balanced.

Depending on the type of film being made, this could involve working with sound engineers on location, working with a studio to produce the sounds in post-production, or any combination thereof. Often in low-budget production, the mixer manages all sound recording on the set and any on-site real-time mixing.  They also typically manage any wireless personal microphones.


Boom Operator

Boom operators work in conjunction with the production sound mixer. The boom operator holds a microphone on a pole, which is often the primary audio source. The Boom operator is also responsible for yelling ACTION into the boom mic before each take…we are just joking on that last one. That would be insane = )

Sound Utility

The sound utility assists the sound department and acts as a liaison between the department and set to problem-solve any issues that arise in the production that could jeopardize sound quality. This position is far more common on larger-budget productions.

They support the production sound mixer and boom operators by setting up and maintaining audio hardware, keeping the set quiet for capture, and helping resolve any audio problems that might come up.


Continuity

Script Supervisor

A script supervisor is primarily responsible for ensuring the script dialog and shots are adhered to, notating each take, and notating the actors’ improvisations. Their log is often passed to the editor to make editing the film significantly easier.

On a lower budget set, they are in charge of the continuity of the motion picture, including wardrobe, props, set dressing, hair, makeup, and the actions of the actors during a scene. However, a separate person performs these functions on medium and larger budget productions.


Camera Department

Director of Photography

director of photography (Cinematographer, DP, DOP) is responsible for establishing the movie’s visual look. They are typically the ones who will be in charge of the camera and will set the camera’s lighting, as well as use different lenses to capture the images, film stock (if you are shooting film), camera selection, shot selection, camera operation, and other elements.

Generally, they tell production the cost of the camera and lighting packages that will be needed to shoot the production. It is important to note that their decision-making power is still usually superseded by the director and sometimes the producer(s). 


Camera Operator

The camera operator captures the film’s footage as dictated by the script, director, and cinematographer. They shoot what’s happening. On lower-budget film productions, the cinematographer will be his or her own cameraman. The person responsible for creating the look of a film is also known as the director of photography.

1st Assistant Camera (aka Focus Puller)

The first assistant camera (also called the 1st assistant camera, 1st AC, first AC, or focus puller) has one main job: to keep the right subject in focus throughout each scene.

Many people just think 1st ACs just pull focus, but that is just the tip of the iceberg. They are thinking ahead 25 steps to ensure that the department runs smoothly while their hand is on the focus wheel, keeping the shot in focus.


2nd Assistant Camera

The second assistant camera (2nd AC) or clapper loader is a member of a film crew whose main function is to load film magazines (if you are shooting on film), loading hard drive or cards for recording on digital film cameras, operate the slate, creating camera reports, and keep records and paperwork. 2nd ACs are needed in every production; they are essential to every single project.


Steadicam Operator

A Steadicam operator is responsible for setting up and operating a Steadicam camera system for recording a live-action video or animation sequence. This includes:

  • Setting up the Steadicam rig
  • Testing and calibrating the Steadicam rig

Steadicam operators are responsible for monitoring the cameras during filming, but the 1st AC is responsible for making sure the camera remains in working order while also helping the director achieve his or her vision. The job requires strong communication skills and the ability to multitask, as well as the ability to make quick decisions and work in a dynamic environment. A comfortable pair of shoes is also a must.

They answer directly to the director of photography.


Drone Operator

Any person or organization that rents or owns a drone is a drone operator. If you are also the person who actually flies the drones, you can be both a drone operator and a remote pilot.


DIT/Media Management

A Digital Imaging Technician or DIT is the person on the camera department crew who works with the director of photography to ensure that the camera settings, signal integrity, on-set preliminary color correction, and other image manipulation are perfect.

They often create LUTs with the director of photography, so the colorist has a starting point when the project gets to color grading. A DIT is a liaison between production and post-production teams on feature films, handling data management from set to editorial suite.


Still Photographer

The still photographer contributes daily to the filming process by creating set stills, while the on-set still photographer creates photographs for the promotion of a film. All the details of the cast’s wardrobe, appearance, and background are recorded by the photographer with these.

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Grip Department

Key Grip

The key grip is the person in charge of the grip crew on a film or television production. The men and women are in charge of positioning the production’s nonelectrical lighting gear. The people who position this equipment are also under their supervision.

He’s also responsible for all the keys on a film set…again just kidding on that last one. = )


Best Boy Grip

The best boy is the first assistant to the grip crew or the lighting department and usually fills a number of roles on a television or film set. The best boys take care of everything in the grip department to ensure a seamless production and work directly with the gaffer and the director of photography.

The best boy grip’s most important job is handling payroll for the grip department. They do the timecards and make sure everyone is getting paid what they are due. The best boy grip is the point of contact for all the other departments.

Dolly Grip

The dolly grip is used to operate the camera dolly. This technician places, levels, and moves the dolly track, then pushes and pulls the dolly while the camera operator and camera assistant ride.

Rigging Grip

Rigging Grips (aka Riggers) are a type of Grip. They assist with set up, production moves, and setting up and dismantling sets, equipment, and scenery.


Electrical Department

Gaffer

A Gaffer is in charge of running the crew and overseeing all the lighting equipment. The Chief Lighting Technician, also known as the Gaffer, works directly with the cinematographer to provide the lights and electricity needed for a given set-up.

To execute the lighting plan for production, the gaffer has to run a team of lighting technicians.


Best Boy Electric

The Best Boy Electric is the head assistant to the gaffer. While managing and scheduling the rest of the electricians and lighting technicians, they are the second in charge, typically watching over the electric truck and rentals. The best boy electric’s most important job is handling payroll for the electrical department.

They do the timecards and make sure everyone is getting paid what they are due. The best boy, electric, is the point of contact for all the other departments.

Rigging Electricians

Rigging electricians are a separate crew who work in advance of and after the shooting crew. They pre-rig stages and locations with cable and lighting equipment, along with the rigging grips, so the shooting crew spends more time shooting and less time waiting for lighting. They will also wrap locations and stages after the shooting crew is done.

Set Electricians

Set electricians will set up and focus lights for each shot of the shooting day. They will provide power to other departments as needed during the shoot day.

Shop Electricians

Shop Electricians work with the art and set dressing departments and construction crews to wire up lights and equipment that are part of the set. They also provide work lights and portable generators at locations that are being prepped.

Basecamp Electricians

Base Camp electricians provide power for campers and other vehicles away from set.

Generator Operator

Generator Operators (aka Genny Operator) are responsible for loading the generator, transporting it to the film shoot location, and ensuring that it is operational before production begins.


Art Department

Production Designer

A production designer is responsible for the art direction, design, and execution of visual elements in film production. A Production Designer’s primary job is to create environments and design key props and set dressing that helps tell the story and advance the plot in the most cinematic way possible.

He or she needs to work closely with certain other departments to ensure that the visual elements they’ve created are consistent with the rest of the film. This may include wardrobe, make-up, special make-up effects, and digital effects departments, and sometimes even the location scout.

A production designer must be organized and detail-oriented and able to multi-task in the fast-paced world of film production. They must also be a creative problem solver, able to think outside of the box.

Responsibilities:

  • Collaborate with the Director and Producer to determine what type of sets and props will be needed.
  • Work with the Art Director and Set Decorator to decide how to design the set best and ensure it is completed in time for filming.
  • Create and oversee the construction of sets and props that are part of the story being told.

Art Director

Art Directors are responsible for executing the vision and instructions of the production designer on the set. This person helps set the tone for each shot and scene. She is in charge of the visual palette (color palette, lighting, etc.) and shapes the shots in such a way that they fit into the overall flow of the story and the overall feel of the film. They are, in many ways, a production designer’s second in command.

The director may assign specific tasks to the art director, but it’s ultimately up to them to interpret those instructions and create something unique. They also have to balance their style with that of other departments, like costume designers and sound editors, and ultimately answer to production designers.

Art Department Coordinator

The art department coordinator is a position on the production crew that is in charge of overseeing the entire art department. They are concerned with the execution of visual artistry on set. They monitor the budget for the department, keep everything in order, and ensure information flows smoothly between fields.

Construction Coordinator

Construction Managers are in charge of constructing sets and stages for film productions. From initial planning through to the final coat of paint on the finished sets, they coordinate the entire process of set building.

Carpenters

The Production Carpenter builds, installs, and removes wooden structures on the film set and location. Several construction team members carry out the producer and director’s design and creative vision.

Key Scenic

The key scenic is an artist, supervisor, and organizer responsible for making the surroundings and sets of a film look realistic within the world is established on screen. This often is in the form of paint and texturing of surfaces. Sometimes it includes sculptural elements and even molding and casting.

Scenic Artists

The scenic artist is in charge of laying out, painting, sculpting, priming, detailing, and the rest of the backdrops and hard scenic items.

Set Decorator

Set decorators add interest to the drama by creating the background of the action and explaining the context. While prop masters deal with placing objects an actor holds, set decorators are concerned with the walls, floors, vehicles, and furniture.

Set decoration is a multi-disciplinary art form. A set decorator must be well-versed in the technical aspects of production, lighting, and camera movement and be able to interface with the Special Effects department where relevant.

Leadman

A leadman is a set decoration department member who is in charge of the props and swing gang. The swing gang does the set dressing and removal.

Set Dressers

Before rolling the camera, the set dressers arranged objects on the film set. They are working under the direction of a Production Designer and the Set Decorator. Placing furniture, hanging pictures, and putting out decorative items is done by the set dressers.

Greensman

A Greenman (aka greensperson, nurseryman, greenskeeper) is responsible for taking care of anything “green” or naturally used in the production of the film. Plants, bushes, trees, flowers, etc.

Art Department Production Assistants

The assistant to the art director helps the entire art department. In many ways, they are like standard production assistants by supporting the art department exclusively. 

Their responsibilities can be everything from running paperwork back and forth, to retrieving props and set decoration items from and returning props and set decoration items to rental houses, to any general departmental errands during preproduction, production, and the earliest stages of post-production as it pertains to the art department.

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Props

Property Master

Property Masters are responsible for all props in the production, including acquiring them, keeping them organized, and making sure they’re used safely. The props master reports to the production designer and leads a team of prop makers or props-department runners.


Assistant Property Master

The assistant property masters help the prop masters with anything on set. Once a scene is wrapped, they ensure the correct props are prepared, on hand for the shoot, and archived.

Prop Maker

Any props that aren’t bought in, or hired, are made by prop makers in the properties department of feature films. Prop makers use a wide variety of materials, techniques, and tools.

Prop Assistants

The prop assistant aids the assistant props master where needed. An outside props person may be assigned to purchase props, and an inside props person may be assigned to oversee the use and maintenance of props. They report to the prop master.

Food Stylists

A food stylist is a person who prepares food for photography, video, film and even lives events. The best promotional pictures and videos of a dish can be achieved with the help of a food stylist who has an artistic and technical background.

Animal Wranglers

The animal wrangler ensures that animals or other hazardous animals don’t interfere with filming. He or she may handle and train animals for on-screen roles in movies or television shows.


Costume and Wardrobe

Costume Designer

Costume designers design and create the wardrobe, both in terms of style and functionality, which gives the actors the outfits they wear on screen. 

The main responsibility of a costume designer is to create the look of a character, whether it is a superhero, an action hero or a villain, a princess, a pirate, a cowboy, a police officer or a nurse.

He or she can dress a character in any color, and they can be of any ethnicity. The designer’s goal is to create a look that reflects the character’s role and personality. Sometimes the costume designer must work in conjunction with the make-up designer to help create a seamless character design.


Assistant Costume Designer

The assistant costume designers help the costume designers with looks for actors. They plan, create, organize, and help maintain clothing.

Key Costumers

The costume designer’s artistic vision is maintained by the key costumer, who is responsible for managing personnel and on-set activities. He or she should be aware of each scene’s needs and the costumes’ evolution.

Set Costumers

Set costumers keep track of the costumes so they don’t get damaged or dirty when unloaded. After each use for dirt, tears, and other problems, they establish guidelines for actors to check their costumes and where to put them.

Wardrobe Supervisor

The wardrobe supervisor is responsible for all the costumes. In consultation with the production manager, costume designer, and sometimes the director, the wardrobe supervisor can help coordinate and assign dressers to specific performers.

Seamstress

In addition to supporting the filmmaker’s vision through their work, seamstresses, tailors, stitchers, and sewers help actors move around comfortably in their clothes. Alterations to outfits are one of their responsibilities.

Agers and Dyers

These technicians are responsible for taking freshly made costumes and adjusting them, through distressing and painting, to look (lived in).  Sometimes this work is very subtle (a chip on a button, fray of a thread, a little wrinkling), and sometimes, it can be extreme (massive dirt and sweat, tearing, and heavy fraying).

Shoppers

If show demands do not require a separate buyer, the duties are to do basic shopping, buying, and returns, assist with research and phoning, can do costume breakdown and aging, can do laundry, ironing, sewing skills, and costume maintenance may assist with fittings and alterations.


Hair and Makeup

Hair Department Head

A hair department head designs all of the hairstyles for the show and manages a team of hairdressers that help implement and maintain the design vision for the principal cast, background actors, stunt performers, photo doubles, and any other hairstyles that will appear on camera.

The hair designer works with the director to discuss the story and the characters’ needs. The hair designer is also responsible for sourcing or creating all of the wigs that appear in the show, and their design is closely tied to the hairstyles that are being worn.

This can be seen in the fact that it takes the longest amount of time for a hairstyle to be designed and that the hairstyles are very detailed and unique to each character.


Makeup Department Head

The head of the makeup department is NOT to be confused with the key makeup artist, who is, in fact, the makeup department’s second in command. The Department Head oversees the makeup design for the entire production and ensures continuity throughout filming.

They will often apply makeup to lead and other principal actors for special or hard-to-produce looks.

Special Makeup Effects

Special makeup effects artists use makeup and prosthetics to recreate wounds, defects, and supernatural features. Basic film makeup can be combined with knowledge of advanced makeup techniques for more dramatic effects.

The makeup effects artist usually works in conjunction with the hair stylist, standard makeup artist, special effects coordinator, and/or costume designer. Makeup Effects artists are also responsible for proper skin care before and after the removal of special cosmetic products and prosthetics.

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Stunts

Stunt Coordinator

Stunt coordinators are responsible for making sure that actors perform their stunts safely and without injury. They work closely with the stunt team and the director to ensure that the stunt work looks good on screen.

The more stunts an actor has to do, the more likely it is for something to go wrong. Because of this, stunt coordinators must have excellent communication skills and knowledge of how to handle actors who get injured on set.

Stunts are often dangerous and require careful planning. They can be as simple as a person jumping from a moving car or as complicated as a person being shot by an arrow or bullet.

It’s important for stunt coordinators to know what their actors can and cannot do and how to safely work with them in order to keep the production going smoothly.


Stunt Performer

A stuntman performs stunts to be used in a film or television show. Car crashes, falling from a great height, dragging behind a horse, and explosions are some stunts in films and television.

Stunt performers are often referred to as stuntmen or stuntwomen, although the gender-neutral term stunt performer may be used.

Stunt Rigger

The ropes and pulleys that allow stunt doubles and actors to fly off cliffs or under speeding cars without actually falling or getting run over are designed and implemented by stunt riggers. They set up hoists, scaffolding, lifts, and booms needed on film and television sets.

Visual Effects

Visual Effects Supervisor

Visual Effects (VFX) Supervisors supervise all visual effects shots on a film project. All of the VFX artists that work in the process are managed by the VFX Supervisor. They make a decision on what is needed for every shot of the film.

The visual effects supervisors and the visual effects artists sometimes create previsualization materials to help plan everything from specific VFX shots to digital elements like digitally rendered creatures or full backgrounds.

Afterward, they discuss the details of each shot and present the final VFX materials to the director, producer, and other members of the filmmaking team. In a movie scene, VFX supervisors have the ability to tell the VFX artists what kind of effects to use for any given shot.


VFX Coordinator

The VFX Coordinator organizes all the VFX for the show. This includes: Working on all aspects of the visual effects in the post-production process – Being able to understand the workflows for the visual effects – Managing schedules and resources – Scheduling and managing shots – Coordinating visual effects – Assisting with the post-production workflow of the film.


Special Effects (Practical Effects)

Special Effects Coordinator

The Director wants explosions, natural disasters, or general destruction on a movie or television show set, and that’s where the Special Effects coordinators come in. Special effects can include everything from a gas explosion in a movie to a car crash in a movie.

These are one form of practical effect. However, these days it is more and more common to include special makeup effects under the header of the term “practical effects.”

The special effects coordinator is responsible for coordinating the work of several other departments, which may include make-up, stunts, costume, and art departments, to create the desired result.

This includes everything from hiring the right people to get the job done to ensure the equipment and materials is in place when needed.


Special Effects Foreman

The Special Effects Foreman (aka SFX Forman) is the supervisor of the mechanical effects used to create non-digital optical illusions. He or she is responsible for overseeing the creation and execution of special effects on films.

The SFX Foreman is in charge of all special effects created in the visual effects industry. Their primary responsibility is to ensure that all aspects of the effects are well executed and delivered on time.

Special Effects Technicians

Special effects technicians assist the SFX supervisor and foreman in executing all necessary wind, rain, explosions, fire, and other special effects.

Armorer

The armorers’ responsibility is to transport, store, and safely use of all weaponry and firearms on film sets. Unless a licensed armorer is present, it is not permissible to use firearms on set.
The weapons master, also known as the armorer, weapons specialist, weapons handler, weapons wrangler, or weapons coordinator, is a film crew specialist that works with the property master, director, actors, stunt coordinators, and script supervisor.
If you are looking for a a safe and realistic alternative to blank-firing movie guns, we recommend airsoft guns or digital VFX.

Pyrotechnician

This is a specific branch of Special Effects. A Pyrotechnician is responsible for designing and orchestrating all the explosions in the movies. The work that goes into setting off explosions that end up on the big screen is much more methodical than the explosions themselves.

The explosion of fireworks is a delicate process, requiring precision, skill, and a lot of practice. And while there are plenty of ways to create explosions, there are very few ways to create the explosions that you see on the big screen.


Catering and Food Services

Production Caterer

The production caterer is responsible for providing the crew with healthy foods in order to keep them happy and satisfied so they can do their job without interruption. Otherwise, if the production crew has to work very long hours, they will not be able to eat or have to leave the set to go to restaurants or to get food brought to the set.

In order to deliver the right food for the shoot, the production caterer needs to have a deep understanding of the shooting schedule and a good working knowledge of the production budget.

The production caterer should be knowledgeable about the film’s script, production team, production schedule, and other logistical details that are critical to the success of the shoot.

Key Craft Services

Craft services (aka: Crafty) is a film production position tasked with providing snacks and drinks to all crew members of a film set. Craft service typically provides a spread of coffee, water, and prepackaged snacks at a designated food and drink area.
The best thing about craft service is that it provides an outlet for film crews to eat, rest, and refresh throughout the duration of a long day of filming.
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Safety

Set Medic

A set medic is someone who provides emergency medical assistance to people on TV or in film productions. You work as a set medic on set. You have responsibilities for waiting on medical issues during shooting.

Advising the production team on safety issues is one of the other duties. When working as a set medic, you travel a lot. They work in water, at heights, in studios, or anywhere a production takes place.

Intimacy Coordinator

The well-being of actors who participate in sex scenes or other intimate scenes in theater, film, and television production is ensured by an Intimacy Coordinator. When nudity/hyper-exposed work, simulating sex acts, and intimate physical contact are needed on set, the Intimacy Coordinator acts as a liaison between the actors or performers and the production.


Covid Compliance Officer (CCO)

A Covid Compliance Officer works directly with the production to ensure the protocols and guidelines are followed. A CCO is either a stand-alone position or supported by a covid compliance supervisor on longer productions of 1-2 weeks when more planning is needed.

These individuals serve enforcement of Covid Compliance. The Health and Safety Department usually supports CCOs on longer shoots. Covid Compliance Officers (CCOs) will work with Production/Production Management (PM), Production Assistant (PA), and Production Supervisor (PS) to ensure that the cast and crew follow COVID-19 protocols.

CCOs will be in constant contact with Production during the shoot to ensure that COVID-19 protocols are being followed and enforced; if you want to learn more about filming during COVID, check out our webinar: How to Shoot a Feature Film in a COVID World.

Honey Wagon Operator

The Honey Wagon Operator is in charge of the “honey wagon.” The honey wagon is a trailer that has a number of staircases leading off of it. There will be staircases to restrooms that the cast and crew use. They will usually will not be clearly labeled “men and women” restrooms. This is probably to discourage non-production crew from using them.

Some of the staircases lead to small dressing rooms for the actors. One of the staircases may lead to a room that PAs and ADs operate out of.

 

How to Get Professional & Safe Looking Prop Guns for Your Film

When my team and I were making my first short film, BROKENwe really wanted to have functional and professional-looking guns for the project. Obviously, we weren’t going to use real guns, and getting our hands on working prop guns was too cost-prohibited. We also wanted to ensure that everyone on set was safe, which was our main priority.

We knew we could create some badass muzzle flashes in visual effects, but I wanted to have some realistic-looking guns on-set that had blowback to enhance the VFX and ultimately make the gunfights look real.

After doing a ton of research, we discovered Airsoft Guns or “Air Guns”(our prop guns). These are basically jacked-up BB guns. They range in price from $12-$50 for good-looking plastic replica pistols (excellent for wide shots) and $20-$95 for metal replica pistols with realistic blowback (great for close-ups).

You can also get some remarkable-looking replica rifles, shotguns, sniper rifles, and even a grenade launcher. Crazy!

These Airsoft guns added so much realism to the film. The combination of practical blowback with high-end visual effects was a great combo.

Safety First

When using Airsoft guns or any firearm prop on set, you MUST assign someone to be responsible for all the weaponry. These guns might not be real, but they can hurt people. By law, if you use professional prop guns, you need an armorer on set at all times. Everyone on a film crew must act professionally, even if you are using Airsoft weapons on a low-budget independent film.

The late actor Brandon Lee was infamously killed on the set of The Crow by a misfiring prop gun. (Brandon Lee Death)

More recently, a terrible incident on a professional film set in New Mexico occurred where actor Alec Baldwin accidentally killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and injured director Joel Souza with a misfiring prop gun. Prop guns, even Airsoft BB guns, are no joke and NEED to be respected as if they were real.

Also, please check your local state and city laws in regard to owning or using Airsoft guns. Always be careful, responsible, and above all, safe. Getting some cool shots in an indie film is not worth getting people hurt or worse.

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Where to Find the Guns?

This is the way to go if you want to have real-looking guns in your film. We purchased most of our guns through a local Airsoft or Air Gun reseller, Amazon.com.

We even asked the local reseller if he had any broken Airsoft guns in the back. He gave most of them to us for FREE and charged $5-$10 for $100 pistols. They didn’t work, but they look great on camera.

Click on any of the links below to get some examples of Airsoft weapons.

Airsoft Prop Gun – Pistols Metal Pistols (with Blow Back):

Airsoft Green Gas (Fuel for Blow Back)

Airsoft Prop Gun – Pistols (Non-Blow Back):
Good for background and nonfiring shots

Airsoft Prop Gun – Shotguns:

Airsoft Prop Gun – Rifles:

Airsoft Prop Gun – Grenade Launcher:

Airsoft Prop Gun – Sniper Rifle:


BONUS: Realistic Prop Knives & Prop Weapons

If I may quote one of my favorite Christmas films:

“You’ll shoot your eye out kid.” – A Christmas Story

It may be funny, but it’s true. Have fun and be very careful.  Good luck and happy filming.

Spoiler

A lot of the things that we used in BROKEN were done on a shoestring. One of the bigger things that we ended up having to use as far as props were concerned were the weapons, and the guns that we decided to go with were airsoft weapons; airsoft weapons gave us the ability to have blowback as well as a realistic feel and look to them, the nine-millimeter weapons that we used for a lot of the main characters and the 45, those things had an amazing amount of blowback, which looked very realistic. The shotgun was completely composited and, and, and plastic and metal weapon and the realism that imparted on to, to the shoot were, you know, insert me, it was irreplaceable because we would never have been able to acquire weapons of either having a real professional there with real guns or some kind of a weapons Wrangler, that would have been able to give us the resources.

Plus, from an insurance standpoint, there is no way that we could have afforded to have weapons that were blank-firing or squibs going off or anything of that effect. That was just not something that we could have done logistically or financially. The weapons, the guns themselves that have blowback, are powered by something called green gas. And what you basically do is the clip that’s normally filled with bullets or any kind of a projectile comes out of the bottom of the gun, you take it, flip it upside down, and then force the can nozzle into the top of the weapon. By doing that, you force the compressed green gas into the chamber, which is very cold. And it’s pretty, it’s pretty toxic as well.

So you don’t want to inhale it or anything like that. Once you put it back into the weapon, and you caulk it like you would a regular weapon, you have blowback, and it kind of also shot a bit of the cold air because the room was so hot, it shot a bit of that cold green gas would come up off the top and gave a great look as well for the transitions that the vs. VFX guys needed for, for the weapons to integrate the visual effects with the practical shooting of the weapon itself. You would think that the level of these weapons would be expensive, but they actually weren’t relatively; we found for a lot of the static shots that we use that we didn’t have to use actual working weapons; we bought weapons for as little as two or $3. apiece, the larger weapons and the weapons that actually had blowback were a little bit more costly, but they weren’t any more expensive than 20 to $30.

We were very fortunate to be able to locate them at the airsoft depot here in South Florida. And we recommend that you either go online or visit one of these locations if you’re going to use these weapons because they’re both safe. And as long as you don’t put a projectile in them. You have nothing to worry about. And just get somebody to be responsible for them and, you know, make them completely responsible, not anybody else. touch those guns and make sure they get anything else in there because you don’t want a liability problem on your hands.

Ultimate Guide To Ti West And His Directing Techniques

TI WEST’S STUDENT WORKS (2001)

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As an avid read of independent filmmaking blogs and news sites, I was first exposed to indie horror director Ti West around 2011, when his feature THE INKEEPERS was making the rounds at film festivals.  He was praised for his old-fashioned aesthetic, and for making scary movies that were actually artful and high quality.

I became a firm believer in West after watching THE INKEEPERS and finding it to be one of the most energizing horror films I’d seen in years.  That impression was further reinforced by watching his 2009 feature THE HOUSE OF THE DEVIL and finding it to also be a brilliantly crafted film.  As a filmmaker with the grand majority of his career still ahead of him, West may seem an odd choice for a retrospective essay series such as this one.

He really only has a few high-profile features to his name, and even then he hasn’t caused a significantly large ripple in the film community yet.  However, with each film he makes, his profile grows a little more, marking him as a director to watch.  His commitment to bringing the genre back from the uninspired dregs of such studio horror franchises as the SAW series or PARANORMAL ACTIVITY is both refreshing and promising.

As his career grows, he’ll almost certainly become our preeminent director of scary content, redefining horror for a whole new generation.

Born in Delaware in 1980, West is one of the few working directors that is close to me in age, so thusly, he belongs to my generation of filmmakers: old enough to remember the days of VCRs and video cassettes, but young enough that we’ve always had access to cheap digital video cameras.  As such, a lot of us have been making films quite economically from a very early age.

We were also the first generation of filmmakers to directly benefit from online video and the rise of Youtube, which allowed us to distribute our films directly to fans without the need for conventional theatrical releases or film festivals.  West’s formative years were no doubt spent watching and re-watching videocassettes of horror classics until the tapes wore out.  The fuzzy, lo-fi aesthetic of the format played a huge role in influencing his own.

He studied filmmaking at the School of Visual Arts in Manhattan, where he found himself under the tutelage of noted indie director Kelly Reichardt (WENDY AND LUCY (2008), MEEK’S CUTOFF (2010)).  From her, he learned the value of minimalism, resourcefulness, and conviction of vision.

It was his relationship with Reichardt that led to his internship at Glass Eye Pix, run by director/producer/actor Larry Fessenden.  Fessenden had starred in Reichardt’s debut feature RIVER OF GRASS (1994) and had since carved out a niche for himself as a producer of grindhouse genre exploitation films in the vein of Roger Corman.  Fessenden took an active interest in his talented young intern, and agreed to executive produce his first few features, bringing West some instant indie cred.

While he was at SVA in 2001, West completed three short works titled PREY, INFESTED, and THE WICKED.  PREY appears to be the only of these shorts that is publicly available, so I only have that go off on in exploring West’s first forays behind the camera.  PREY concerns two young men who are chased through snowy woods by a bloodthirsty creature.

It’s a pretty standard horror story, with the bulk of the action focusing on the protagonists evading the unspecified monster.  What it lacks in story, PREY makes up for in execution— West’s confidence behind the camera is already apparent.

PREY was shot on 16mm film, as were his other two student shorts, so the film is naturally constrained to a square 4:3 frame.  The cinematography by West himself is unadorned, with the young director hand-operating his camera and employing zooms for dramatic effect.  He takes a lot of visual cues from THE BLAIR WITCH PROJECT (1999), like the woodsy setting and handheld camera shakiness but he also employs his own visual language with the monster, giving its POV an eerie, supernatural feel with a monochrome negative filter.

We only see the Monster in extreme close-ups, its snapping jaws most resembling a wolf.  Even then, West knew that the key to effective horror is that our imaginations can conjure up something far scarier than what he could realize on-screen.  PREY also shows West’s affinity for immersive sound design, an aspect on which most horror films live or die.

Despite the lo-fi nature of the cinematographyPREY comes off as pretty polished thanks to a high quality sound mix.

In his student films, we can already see West’s defining characteristics emerging.  His influences and inspirations are incorporated into his work in the form of old school techniques and suspense.  Make no mistake, PREY is very much a student film, much like the subpar shorts I saw in my own days as a film student at Emerson College, but it also has a distinct confidence behind it.

Without being able to see THE WICKED or INFESTED, it’s still clear that West knows what he’s doing, and that he already possesses the skills that will make his feature work stand out from the pack.


THE ROOST (2005)

These days, it’s extremely rare that an internship will lead to a full-time job.  It’s rarer still, as an aspiring filmmaker, for an internship to lead directly to your first professional directing effort.  However, that’s what happened with director Ti West, who interned under producer/actor Larry Fessenden’s Glass Eye Pix.

Fessenden was impressed by West’s student films, so when West pitched him a feature idea about a pack of killer bats called THE ROOST, Fessenden was quick to come onboard as executive producer.  Released in 2005 with intentions as a modest, low-budget throwback to cheesy horror films from the 1980’s, THE ROOST exceeded all expectations.  West’s confident direction propelled it to a warm reception at various film festivals, effectively launching his career as a feature filmmaker worth watching.

THE ROOST follows four friends driving through dark woods en route to a Halloween wedding, when suddenly a renegade bat surprises them and causes the car to swerve into a ditch.  Unable to free the car, the friends set off into the night to search for help.  They come across a dilapidated barn and take shelter from the elements, but it’s not long until they discover that they’ve wandered directly into the bats’ roost, and their bite has the power to turn the bitten into bloodthirsty zombies.

One of the film’s peculiar quirks is the use of a framing device that resembles those late-night horror movie presentations introduced by a ghoulish host.  West’s fictional show, which he calls Frightmare Theatre, places the macabre host inside of a chintzy, gothic castle and takes time out of THE ROOST’s narrative so that he can crack blackly humorous jokes.

This bookending conceit boasts the film’s one recognizable face, in the form of Tom Noonan (famous for his portrayal of The Tooth Fairy in Michael Mann’s classic MANHUNTER (1986).  Noonan is pitch perfect as the droll, Vincent Price-esque Master of Ceremonies, his naturally-gangly physicality adding to the cheesy spookiness on display.  Securing the services of Noonan was THE ROOST’s ultimate coup, as his name brought a great deal of legitimacy to West’s efforts.

The cast inside of THE ROOST’s main narrative doesn’t fare as well, unfortunately.  West casts a quartet of unknowns (Karl Jacob, Vanessa Horneff, Sean Reid, and Will Horneff) that are most likely friends of his from film school or from local auditions.  The characters are standard horror archetypes: the bookish nerd, the sassy girl, the stubborn stoner, and the virtuous alpha male.

Not a lot is required of the actors other than to scream and run on cue, which to be fair, they all do effectively.  Otherwise, the performances are wooden and uninspired.  There’s a reason why none of them broke out along with West in the wake of the film’s success.  On the brighter side, Fessenden himself appears towards the end in a cameo as a tow-truck driver attacked by the flock of bats.

Of the filmmakers in my generation, West is unique in that he mostly shoots on film.  Since he’s also shot a feature on video, I don’t think he necessarily prefers film to video, but I do think his old-fashioned aesthetic demands film because video can’t replicate it (at least it couldn’t when THE ROOST was made).

West is a capable cinematographer in his own right, but he’s probably like me in that his shooting on actual film tests the limits of his skills when he’s also directing.  The mechanics and mathematic calculations inherent in film is best left to a dedicated cinematographer, so West entrusts the Super 16mm photography to DP Eric Robbins.

The aesthetic of THE ROOST is relatively unadorned, with the majority of camerawork being handheld.  Robbins’ lighting setup is low-key, with lurid colors similar to the carnival-esque aesthetic of Rob Zombie’sHOUSE OF 1000 CORPSES (2003).  It embraces the lo-fi natures of 16mm film, creating a similar look to the heyday of VHS horror.

The color red is used specifically for effect, popping out of the darkness and flashed in gory freeze frames.  The Frighthouse Theatre segment gets its own particular look, with black and white photography filtered to resemble an old TV broadcast.  Production Designer David Bell populates the set with loads of cheesy gothic objects and dressing, completing West’s tongue-in-macabre-cheek vision.

West also incorporates storytelling elements whose influence comes from unexpected places, like Michael Haneke’s FUNNY GAMES (1997).  Three quarters of the way through the film, the story abruptly ends with the surviving characters giving up and accepting their fate.  Noonan’s unhappy host returns, expressing his disapproval of the ending, so he actually rewindsthe film and plays it back to show the alternate, definitive ending.  Haneke did the same thing in his film, toying with his audience by presenting false hope only to snatch defeat from the jaws of triumph.

Composer Jeff Grace also received a modest breakout with THE ROOST, having previously assisted Howard Shore in his work on THE LORD OF THE RINGS TRILOGY for Peter Jackson and GANGS OF NEW YORK for Martin Scorsese.  He crafts an ominous, discordant suite of cues where shrieking string instruments evoke the terror of killer bats.

He also uses a gothic organ in the Frighmare Theatre scenes that further lends to the intended cheesiness.  Diagetically, West incorporates a few underground punk songs into the mix, giving us a little view into his own particular musical tastes.  The sound mix as a whole is incredibly strong for a film this low-budget.  Graham Reznick serves as the sound designer, turning in what would be the first of many mixes he’d create for West over the years.

THE ROOST immediately differentiates itself from other indie horror films because of its old-school aesthetic.  While most directors of our generation are trying to make slick, glossy horror films with digital cameras, West is appropriating the look of a by-gone era and making it his own.  There’s a distinct charm in his approach, a palpable soul.

In taking this old-school approach, the evidence of West’s craft and direction becomes more visible.  Filmed mainly in West’s native Delaware, THE ROOST is the first appearance of a peculiar signature of West’s, namely that the story revolves around a singular locale.  This signature may be borne out of the needs of low-budget indie filmmaking where the locations budget is sorely lacking, but inTHE ROOST, West uses it to his advantage to paint a compelling portrait of the abandoned barn in which our characters take refuge.

THE ROOST is stuffed with references to various non-filmic Halloween-time media traditions, like spooky radio shows and the aforementioned Frightmare Theatre presentation.  It’s difficult to tell how much—if any—inspiration is sourced from Zombie’s HOUSE OF 1000 CORPSES, which was a similarly old-fashioned horror jaunt that premiered only two years prior to production on THE ROOST.

Knowing their shared affinity for 80’s horror, it’s unlikely that West didn’t like Zombie’s film—which makes the similarities to Zombie’s own debut hard to ignore.  For example, both films open with the cheesy, late-night Frightmare Theatre conceit.

THE ROOST leveraged Fessenden’s name to draw attention to itself during its South by Southwest festival premiere.  But once West filled out the auditorium, attention shifted directly on him, with several critics and horror blogs naming THE ROOST as one of the best films of the year.  Now, THE ROOST isn’t a great film by any stretch of the imagination.

It’s a serviceable entry in the genre, mostly notable for that fact that it is West’s debut.  His direction shows the signs of a young filmmaker, frequently indulging in awkward, unnecessary exposition.  But with his effective direction of the horror sequences and convincing visual effects, West is able to hit where it really counts.  The film was eventually picked up for distribution by Showtime—quite the feat for any aspiring filmmaker.  With the success of THE ROOST, West had staked his territory in the genre and established himself as a director to watch.


TRIGGERMAN (2007)

Director Ti West enjoyed the modest success of his feature debut THE ROOST (2005), but quickly found himself languishing back in the same obscurity as his peers while he was trying to get his next project off the ground.  After about two years, West approached his executive producer and mentor Larry Fessenden with an idea for a film that he could shoot down and dirty with little money, about a group of friends hunted by a sniper in the woods.

He pitched it as a subversion of the “hunters become the hunted” subgenre, but made in such a realistic way that the banality of key moments could go by without audiences barely registering.  West based his idea off a purportedly true story (I call bullshit), and convinced Fessenden to finance and produce the film.

With $10,000 in hand and seven days to shoot, West ventured once again into the woods of Delaware and shot his second feature, TRIGGER MAN (2007).

The story concerns three old friends who get together and head out of Manhattan for a weekend hunting trips in the woods. We can tell they’re old friends because they’re so stylistically different from each other that the only way they’d be friends is if they went way, way back.  Sean (THE ROOST’s Sean Reid) is about to get married and dresses like he just scored a shopping spree from Abercrombie & Fitch.

His friends, Reggie (Reggie Cunningham) and Ray (Ray Sullivan) are still in an adolescent, grungy, punk phase and lead seemingly aimless lives focused on getting drunk, stoned, and laid.  What promises to be a relaxing weekend of camping and hunting gives way to terror when the trio is attacked by an unseen sniper that’s been relentlessly stalking them.

Keeping true to his minimalist approach, West keeps his cast at a bare minimum, having them use their actual names as their character names.  He once again directs Reid, who previously played the stubborn stoner in THE ROOST, and gives him a character in TRIGGER MAN that’s the polar opposite.

The character of Sean, as played by Reid, is rich, well-groomed/dressed, and is clearly leaving his two old friends behind as he climbs the social ladder of life.  This adds a degree of simmering tension with Cunningham and Sullivan, the two greasy punk types.  Cunningham emerges as the unlikely protagonist of TRIGGER MAN, making for one of the more unconventional leads in recent memory (what with his unpleasant mullet and, frankly, thuggish countenance).

I took this as another sign of West’s unfettered bravery and confidence in his craft despite his early age.  The fact that we come to care about this conventionally un-savory character by the end is perhaps West’s most substantial accomplishment in the entire film.  And like THE ROOST, Fessenden himself appears in a cameo at the very end as the sniper’s henchman who ends up on the wrong side of Reggie’s gun barrel.

What’s immediately apparent upon watching TRIGGER MAN is how starkly different it looks compared to THE ROOST– so much so that one could be forgiven for thinking West made the former first as a shoestring feature long before his 2005 breakout.  West slimmed down his crew considerably by also acting as the Director Of Photography and shooting on digital video with primarily natural lighting.

He opts for an untreated, unfiltered, inherently “video” aesthetic, letting the natural earth tones of his location dominate his muddy color palette.  This allows the bright orange of hunting vests and the visceral crimson of gore to really pop out and jar the audience.  West shoots almost entirely handheld, reveling in slow, quiet stretches of observational camerawork that’s only broken by in-camera rack zooms.

The zooms themselves have no motivation or logic behind it, other than making the camera itself a living, breathing participant.  It also echoes the visual sensation of acquiring a target through a sniper scope.  West chose the forested Delaware location because he grew up in the area, and could secure a singular park permit to shoot anywhere he pleased, thus wringing as much production value as he could out of the concept.

Jeff Grace once again collaborates with West to create the score, crafting an ominous, pulsing energy that propels his ambient soundscapes.  It’s an effective and perfectly serviceable score, but nothing truly stand-out.  West also peppers in several underground hardcore songs for a punkish vibe that reflects the musical sensibilities of his protagonists.

The unglamorous, amateur nature of West’s video aesthetic is bolstered by Graham Reznick’s accomplished sound design, proving the old age that sound is instrumental in the audience’s perception of a film.  If it sounds good, they’re much more adept to watch something that may not be quite up to par, visually.

West’s aesthetic continues to be influenced by the heyday of 1980’s VHS chillers.  While utilizing the relatively new medium of video to shoot TRIGGER MAN, his dedication to the old-fashioned ways is reflected in, among other things, the yellow, vintage font of his titles.  The action of the story occurs around a singular structure, which is another recurring trope within West’s filmography.

In THE ROOST, it was an abandoned barn, and in TRIGGER MAN it manifests as an abandoned factory in the middle of the woods.  Really, the main deviation from West’s style is his decision to shoot on video, as he has shown himself to be a staunch advocate for film-based acquisition as his career has progressed.

West’s second feature turns out to be a taut, surprisingly entertaining little thriller.  TRIGGER MAN has a few flaws in logic indicative of a young filmmaker at the helm, like the main character completely not once calling for help despite the working cell phone in his pocket.  Such flaws only amount to minor quibbles, and ultimately the film premiered to a warm reception at South by Southwest, further reinforcing West’s reputation as a director of finely-crafted, old-fashioned thrillers.

Soon enough, West found himself in the company of like-minded filmmakers in the SXSW social circle, like mumblecore king Joe Swanberg and splatter master Eli Roth.  But it was his friendship with Roth specifically that would lead to his next project—and his first major studio film.


CABIN FEVER 2: SPRING FEVER (2009)

My first job out of college was as an administrative assistant at Lionsgate Entertainment in Santa Monica.  On my first day, I had a lot of downtime, so I delved into the script library and, out of pure boredom, chose to read director Eli Roth’s early draft of CABIN FEVER 2: SPRING FEVER.  It was as awful as I expected.

I only mention this because it was my experience with Lionsgate and approach to filmmaking that gives me some insight into the subject of this essay.  The movies that came out of Lionsgate at the time were juvenile, uninspiring works of commerce whose story elements were coldly calculated by the marketing department to wring the maximum amount of money from fiercely loyal niche groups.

It explains why Lionsgate is such a successful studio- they have a theoretically great business model, but their movies are devoid of soul or any real cultural value.  Because of this single-minded drive for profit, a lot of filmmakers get burned when they work with them.  It happened to director Ti West when Roth, his friend and the helmer of the first CABIN FEVER in 2002, personally nominated him to direct the sequel and helped to set West up at Lionsgate with his first major studio gig.

Executives loved West’s unconventional take on the concept, which had already seen two rejected screenplays previously, and when shooting began in 2007, he was more or less left to his own devices.  But then, something went seriously wrong in the editing stages, and these same executives unhappily ripped the film out of West’s control.

Subsequent re-edits sullied his original vision, so he campaigned to have his name removed from the credits altogether.  However, because he wasn’t a member of the DGA, he wasn’t privy to the same Alan Smithee privileges that a more-established director would have.  His only other option was to publicly disown the film, so it languished on Lionsgate’s shelf until it was quietly released in 2009 to critical pans and dismal box office performance.

CABIN FEVER 2 takes place immediately after the events of Roth’s original film (which I never saw, so I have no idea what transpired there).  The flesh-eating disease upon which the series centers itself around spreads from a rural camp setting to a local private high school.  John (Noah Segan) is your typical, nerdy virgin character who wants to ask his crush to the prom.

The only problem is his crush, a girl-next-door type named Cassie (Alexi Wasser), is part of the popular clique and already has a boyfriend.  Meanwhile, the skin-eating disease quietly spreads amongst the population until prom night, where it rages fiercely inside the contained school grounds.  Now, John must fight to save himself and the girl he likes from a certain, gruesome death that they can’t begin to comprehend.

As far as teen horror goes, the story has been done to death.  There’s nothing original for West to play with, so he tries injecting a great deal of humor into the proceedings and embracing the inherent absurdity of his premise.

CABIN FEVER 2 makes no bones about what kind of movie it is: a disposable adolescent gross-out flick.  As such, it can skate by with a cast of unknowns to save a couple bucks.  I won’t even mention Rider Strong’s presence—he’s in so little of the film he was better off staying home.  It’s the first of many red flags in the film, because you know you’re in trouble when the biggest name actor the film has is killed off in the first minute.

As John, Segan is handsome in a geeky sort of way.  You could see him being the type of nerdy dude who comes into his own in college, but with this disease running rampant, prospects that he’ll even make it far that look pretty dim.  Alexi Wasser plays Cassie, the popular girl with shades of geekiness of her own.  The true highlights of this film, however, lie in the supporting cast and cameos.

Michael Bowen plays the toupee’d, disgruntled principal while Mark Borchardt of AMERICAN MOVIE (1999) infamy and 30 ROCK’s Judah Friedlander make memorable appearances.  West’s producer and mentor Larry Fessenden shows up as Bill, a tow truck driver whose graphic death in a diner alerts the townspeople to the presence of the flesh-eating disease.

CABIN FEVER 2 marks the first of several collaborations between West and cinematographer Eliot Rockett.  West takes the opportunity of major studio funding to shoot on 35mm film, amplifying his cinematic conceits with the panoramic 2.35:1 aspect ratio.  It’s hard to tell who exactly is responsible, but the visual presentation of CABIN FEVER 2 is seriously messed up.

I can’t tell if the color timing, with its super-crushed blacks and gauzy cream highlights, is intentional or not.  The overall color palette skews towards warm autumnal colors, which seems odd given the film is supposed to take place in the spring.  But the true elephant in the room is the warped nature of the image, which looks like it stems from either a strange spherical aberration on the camera lens or editor Janice Hampton seriously screwed up her media management in the cutting room.  There’s no way it’s intentional.

Ultimately, CABIN FEVER 2 just might be the most vile–looking film I’ve ever seen.  I get that it’s supposed to be exaggerated body horror, but it goes too far several times.  I tend to have an iron stomach when it comes to gore, but even I was left feeling queasy for hours afterwards.  I simply have no desire to ever revisit this film– its aesthetic was thatoppressively unpleasant.  I don’t blame this on West’s participation, or even Rockett’s,  but rather on Lionsgate for unceremoniously dumping the film in post without the resources it truly needed.

The music is even more atrocious than the visuals.  For whatever reason (probably Lionsgate again), West foregoes Jeff Grace’s services in favor of Ryan Shore, who crafts an uninspired industrial score.  Its shortcomings are propped up by heavy source cue usage that draws from the psychobilly genre.  It might have seemed a bold, edgy move at the time but the result is an awful sonic experience.

I can’t imagine too many copies of the soundtrack were sold.

Because CABIN FEVER 2 is such an obvious chop job, it’s hard to tell which elements of the film bear West’s mark.  There are a few obvious ones, such as the use of handheld POV shots, and the fact that the story is built around a singular location (the school).  There’s still something of an old-fashioned 80’s aesthetic, but it’s much more downplayed (most likely as a result of Lionsgate’s meddling).

One of the film’s only bright spots are a pair of animated bookend sequences that render the uncontrollable spread of the virus in a comedic way.

CABIN FEVER 2’s utter failure on all fronts is easily the lowest point of West’s career so far.  The satisfaction of working on his first major studio film was replaced with the disappointment of having it taken away, shelved for years, and ultimately dumped by the same uncaring entity that hired him in the first place.  Still, it was a valuable learning experience for the young director.

Whereas most directors would retreat into the relative safety of working within their wheelhouse, West instead doubled down on his desire to work in the independent realm and forego safety altogether.


THE HOUSE OF THE DEVIL (2009)

Every week, it seems like a handful of new horror films hit store shelves, coming seemingly from nowhere and looking like complete and utter garbage.  The market is literally flooded with these derivative shlock films, but why?  A staggering majority of independent filmmakers have clued into the fact that horror films are proportionally higher sellers than other genres.

It’s a genre where quality doesn’t matter, which explains why a horror film that looks like it was made by the high school AV club would be bought and distributed by boutique labels while a high-quality dramatic film would be left behind like a redheaded kid at an orphanage.  A lot of these films are styled after current genre trends like “torture porn”, or “found-footage”, and as such, they are quick to fall out of style and thus languish in eternal obscurity.  In other words, these films are meant to be disposable entertainment, nothing more.

But director Ti West doesn’t his work to be seen as “disposable”.  He wants his films to stand the test of time and scare generation after generation of cinephiles, and his intentions of timelessness are evident in his work.  After getting burned by studio meddling with his third feature CABIN FEVER 2: SPRING FEVER, West was back in the independent realm and found he needed to do something really special to distinguish himself from all the product that was over saturating the indie horror market.

But rather than embrace current trends, West decided to stay true to his character and tapped into his nostalgia for the old-school horror films of the early 1980’s—a nostalgia he was surprised to find was shared by a great many horror aficionados.  His resulting vision, 2009’s THE HOUSE OF THE DEVIL, was a hell of a comeback after the disappointment of CABIN FEVER 2.  It’s easily West’s best film, and arguably his masterpiece.

The time is circa 1983.  The place is rural Connecticut.  Samantha (Joceline Donahue) is a college co-ed who is looking for her first apartment so she can escape an oppressive dorm environment.  She scores her dream pad, but her joy turns to anxiousness when she remembers she doesn’t have the money to afford it.  She sets about looking for a job, eventually finding one as a babysitter.

She travels out to a big house in the woods with her friend Megan (Greta Gerwig), and despite both of their misgivings about the situation, the owner’s offer of $400 for one night of work is too much for Sam to pass up. So she musters up the courage to hang out in this huge house all alone, but as she explores the dark corridors to stave off her boredom, she uncovers clues that suggest she just might be dealing with a murderous cult of Satanists intent on offering her up as the mother of the devil’s child.

West is lucky in that his inspired casting choices were fully onboard with an admittedly risky conceit.  As the sweet and virginal Samantha, Donahue is a great find—her subdued, involving performance suggests that she’ll one day be a huge star in her own right.  When someone can pull off the high-waisted mom jeans look and actually make it look good, you know you’ve found something special.

She has to carry the weight of the film, and she does so effortlessly.

After Tom Noonan’s campy appearance in West’s debut film, THE ROOST (2005), he once again collaborates with the young director and plays the role of Mr. Ulman, the quietly strange owner of the house.  Noonan’s physicality is perfect for the role, what with his imposing slenderness and sunken facial features.  He’s almost like a walking corpse in a tuxedo.

Mumblecore queen Greta Gerwig rose to attention through her collaborations with the movement’s forefather, Joe Swanberg—himself a friend and colleague of West’s.  The role of Sam’s sassy friend Megan is a small one, but Gerwig’s spunky personality is highly memorable.  Dee Wallace rounds out the cast as the kindly, maternal Landlady of Sam’s new apartment, but it’s more of a cameo role honoring madam’s rich legacy within the horror genre.

Eliot Rockett returns as the cinematographer, proving that West’s experience on CABIN FEVER 2 wasn’t all for naught.  The film was shot on Super 16mm film, as West desired to make the film appear as if it was actually shot circa 1983.  This meant appropriating camera techniques like slow zooms instead of what would usually be accomplished with a dolly move today.

The image is grainy and lo-fi, using moody intimate light to cast key portions of West’s classically-composed frames into the dark shadows of the house.  Colors are mostly subdued, save for pops of crimson blood when things really start going down.

A lot of credit goes to Jade Healy, the production designer, who absolutely nails the period elements.  I’ve never seen such a flawless recreation of the 1980’s, right down to the feathered hair and mom jeans.  THE HOUSE OF THE DEVIL absolutely succeeds in convincing audiences that it is a lost film from the VHS format’s heyday.

The score by returning composer Jeff Grace is slow and haunting to match West’s razor-taut, patient pacing.  The musical palette is appropriately creepy and moody, using different instruments to create an old-fashioned aesthetic that further enhances our sense of the time period the story takes place in.

There’s a great sequence where West drops The Fixx’s energetic “One Thing Leads To Another” onto the soundtrack and simply lets Donahue spazz out around the house in one last moment of unbridled youth and innocence before the horror truly sets in.  Graham Reznick supports Grace’s score with another excellent sound mix.  West’s films have placed such a priority on immersive sound design that by this point in West’s career, Reznick has emerged as the young director’s most valuable collaborator.

Obviously, West’s affinity for the 80’s aesthetic conceits run rampant throughout THE HOUSE OF THE DEVIL.  It serves a very real story sense, in that there was a very real “Satanic panic” in the early 80’s that fueled mainstream paranoia over murderous cults, which informs West’s approach to the film.

However, the 80’s conceit goes one step further in amplifying the suspense because it places the story at a point in time where breakdowns in communication were still possible.  With no cell phones or internet, Samantha is truly isolated in the house, which generates that kind of terror that comes with being helpless and alone.

It’s a specific type of terror that you simply can’t get with a story set in our current, always-connected day and age.  West furthers the structural aesthetic of 80’s horror filmmaking by mimicking old-fashioned freeze-frame opening titles, right down to the vintage yellow type.

The film bears another of West’s signatures in that it takes place in a singular location.  In THE HOUSE OF THE DEVIL, the locale is a spooky Victorian mansion in the woods—charming and idyllic by day, but instantly foreboding once the sun sets. West also attempts to create something of a contained universe across his work, like the reference to Frightmare Theatre, the late-night horror TV show that Tom Noonan hosted in THE ROOST.  In THE HOUSE OF THE DEVIL, Samantha is watching late night programming on the television via—you guessed it—Frightmare Theatre.

The show’s presentation that night (George A. Romero’s NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD (1968)) is another instance of West overtly acknowledging his influences and idols.  It also helps that he didn’t need to pay licensing fees to use Romero’s footage in the film (thanks, public domain!).

The supreme care that West put into THE HOUSE OF THE DEVIL was immediately apparent to audiences when he premiered it at the Tribeca Film Festival in 2009.  Praise was so abundant that his association with CABIN FEVER 2 was almost erased entirely before it had even begun (CABIN FEVER 2 actually came out several months after THE HOUSE OF THE DEVIL, despite being shot two years prior).

His commitment to the 80’s aesthetic extended to the film’s home video release, which featured a very clever promotional release in the VHS format, indulging in our shared nostalgia for the glory days of videocassette horror.  If ever a modern film were more perfectly suited to release on an anachronistic format, THE HOUSE OF THE DEVIL is it.

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Ultimately, THE HOUSE OF THE DEVIL is not just a rousing success, but a crucial turning point in West’s career.  It’s where he went from rising star to the de-facto horror director in the independent realm.  By taking his cues from Kubrick or Polanksi, and not from what was currently selling, West has made an effortlessly smart slice of horror that’s several cuts—nay, slashes– above the rest.


DEAD & LONELY (2009)

With the advent of his career occurring squarely in the middle of the social media age, director Ti West created opportunities for himself by befriending and collaborating with like-minded contemporaries, much like the Film Brat generation had done decades before.  The SXSW success of his earlier films THE ROOST (2005) and TRIGGER MAN (2007) led to burgeoning relationships with tastemakers within the Mumblecore movement—most notably Joe Swanberg.

Their friendship paved the way for West using Swanberg’s muse, Greta Gerwig, to great effect in THE HOUSE OF THE DEVIL (2009), but it also opened doors and granted access to some of Swanberg’s executive friends at IFC.  In a bid to build buzz for the imminent release of THE HOUSE OF THE DEVIL, West decided to collaborate with IFC on a short web series called DEAD & LONELY (2009).

Released daily during the week leading up to Halloween that year, the series split its story over five separate episodes- “DATE OR DIE”, “MAKING CONTACT”, “SECOND THOUGHTS”, THE DATE PART 1”, and “THE DATE PART 2”.  One narrative spans the episodes, telling the story of a lonely, nerdy guy (Justin Rice), who invites a strange girl named Lee (Paige Stark) that he met on the dating site dateordie.net to his home, only to find that he’s just invited a bloodthirsty vampire intent on sucking his blood.

Each big story beat is spaced out so that each episode ends with a little cliffhanger that leads directly into the next story beat.

West’s collaborators on DEAD & LONELY are some of the biggest names in Mumblecore cinema.  Swanberg himself serves on the crew, as well as David Lowery, an editor/director in his own right that would later go on to great success at the 2013 Sundance film festival with his feature AIN’T THEM BODIES SAINTS.  Justin Rice, of the band Bishop Allen, rose to indie prominence when he starred in MUTAL APPRECTIATION (2005), directed by the founding father of Mumblecore, Andrew Bujalski.

In DEAD & LONELY, Rice doesn’t stray too far from the awkward, nerdy character he usually plays, which is basically just a fictionalized version of himself.  Paige Stark plays Lee, the predatory vampire.  She’s expectedly eerie in her behavior, but she doesn’t quite pull of the sultry sex appeal that West aims to imbue her character with.  Swanberg also provides his voice as an unhelpful friend over the phone, as does Lena Dunham of TINY FURNITURE (2010) fame in the role of Justin’s ex-girlfriend.

West even gives himself a little cameo in the form of a profile photo on Date or Die’s website.

IFC may have produced DEAD & LONELY, but it certainly looks like the burden of funding was shouldered by West.  The web series was shot (probably by West himself) on a prosumer DV camera like the kind Mumblecore director Aaron Katz shot his early features DANCE PARTY USA (2006) and QUIET CITY (2007) on.

West throws a black matte over the image in post to approximate a 2.35:1 aspect ratio, and the camerawork seems mostly made as up the filmmakers went along.  By this, I mean that West composes his shots mainly in extreme close-ups and unmotivated rack zooms— all aesthetic hallmarks of the Mumblecore movement.  By appropriating the lo-fi video look of his contemporaries, West shows he is very much a filmmaker of his generation.

Even the film’s location, a dumpy apartment in LA’s Silverlake neighborhood—a hipster mecca and my former (and hopefully future) stomping grounds—reinforces the cultural trappings of this particular indie movement.

West’s regular sound designer Graham Reznick pulls double duty, doing both the mix and the score.  He creates a pulsing ambient soundscape, with drums that pump like the rhythm of a heartbeat.  The score buzzes under the entirety of the episodes, propelling the story along and sustaining dread where it might otherwise be lost.

The lo-fi look is part of West’s aesthetic, but it doesn’t have the same old-fashioned patina that usually comes with shooting on film.  Instead, the digital video format creates something at once both new and disposable, and West is forced to appropriate the style of Mumblecore while applying horror genre conceits to it.

The result is almost a casual, indifferent horror—not truly horrifying but darkly quirky and detached.  As West’s first foray into the peculiar, nebulous format of the web series, it generated a healthy amount of buzz on blogs but didn’t make much of a splash beyond that.  It was a great way to introduce West to audiences who might otherwise be familiar with him, but the final product probably needed to be of a higher quality to lure people into investing their time in his feature work.

West’s career growth here lies instead on the social side of things, as he strengthened his bonds with the Mumblecore crowd, and used their influence to realize his next round of works in inspiring new dimensions.


THE INNKEEPERS (2011)

After the success of 2009’s THE HOUSE OF THE DEVIL, director Ti West teamed up once again with his mentor and producing partner Larry Fessenden to realize his vision for an old-fashioned ghost story titled THE INNKEEPERS (2011). He was inspired by a charming, spooky hotel in Connecticut called the Yankee Pedlar Inn, where he purportedly stayed during the production of THE HOUSE OF THE DEVIL.

His idea was a return to the haunted-house chillers that he had loved as a kid, the kind that were popular in the 1980’s and didn’t take themselves too seriously.  THE INNKEEPERS was the first West film I had the pleasure of seeing on the big screen, and it was maybe the most visceral experience I’ve had watching a horror film in quite a while—I saw it with two other guy friends of mine, and we were literally jumping out of our seats.

When we begin the story, we find the Yankee Pedlar Inn on the eve of it’s closure—the historic old hotel’s glory days are far behind it, and it is slowly being forgotten in the rush of the modern world.  Two concierge clerks, Claire (Sara Paxton) and Luke (Pat Healey) keep the hotel running, despite the fact that there is nothing to run.

There’s maybe one or two guests staying in the entire building, so they spend their days and nights goofing off and recording their nightly ghost hunts for their paranormal website.  For the most part, any paranormal activity seems to have departed with the hotel’s business, but their luck changes when an ex-actress and spiritual mystic named Leanne Rease-Jones (Kelly McGillis) checks in and helps them contact the spirit of a bride who was murdered on the grounds.

Claire and Luke soon get more than they bargained for when the spirits multiply and began to exact punishment for having their slumber disturbed.

West is an unconventional independent filmmaker in that his rise hasn’t necessarily been dependent on casting well-known names and faces.  He instead prefers talent that’s well-known to loyal niche groups, such as Tom Noonan or Dee Wallace. With THE INNKEEPERS, his highest-profile performer is Lena Dunham, and she only has a brief cameo as an over-talkative barista.

His leads are unknowns—Paxton is cute and spunky as the nerdy, asthmatic tomboy Claire, and her general physicality is very unconventional for the female lead of a horror film.  As her counterpart Luke, Healey is the other kind of nerdy: aimless and aloof.  Rounding out West’s cast is McGillis as the acerbic, chain-smoking mystic Leanne Rease-Jones.  She brings a somewhat granola gravitas to the role, and helps transition the film from a realistic state of mind towards one that’s open to the presence of the supernatural.

West once again collaborates with cinematographer Elliot Rockett, this time shooting on 35mm film with the 2.35:1 aspect ratio.  Because this results in an inherently cinematic, somewhat modern look, West’s old-fashioned aesthetic is instead rooted in his approach to the camerawork.

The film’s obvious influence is Stanley Kubrick’s THE SHINING (1980), what with its long, slow takes moving down empty hallways and parlors.  His movements are indicative of a substantially larger budget, and he utilizes various dolly and steadicam shots to add a classical touch and a sense of high production value.

He supplements this with several handheld POV shots when things get really hairy, which is true to his stylistic roots as a director.  He favors wide compositions, with a deep focus that has our eyes constantly scanning the frame in anticipation of a ghost emerging.

Returning production designer Jade Healy doesn’t need to do much in the way of set design, as their real-world location was so moody and evocative to begin with.  Rather, she works within the generous confines of the location to reinforce West’s naturalistic, subdued color palette and timeless sensibilities.

The scale of Jeff Grace’s score is expanded to match West’s visual upgrade.  He crafts a lavishly orchestral suite of cues that are appropriately creepy and suspenseful, while also playful during several moments to reiterate the several instances of comedic relief that West uses to inject levity into the proceedings.  It’s almost something like the spooky score you’d get in an early 90’s horror TV show, like Nickelodeon’s ARE YOU AFRAID OF THE DARK?

Returning sound designer Graham Reznick really outdoes himself this time around, creating an immersive mix that plays to West’s carefully-cultivated sense of creeping dread.  When you boot up the film at home, it advises you to play it loud—this should give you a sense of how important the subtle bits & pieces of Reznick’s mix are to the overall experience.

A standout sequence concerns Luke and Claire stalking the back hallways and grand parlor rooms of the Yankee Pedlar while recording Electronic Voice Phenomena (EVPs)—aka voice recordings not present during the time of capture, but manifesting instead out of the white noise of the recording itself and commonly believed to be of supernatural origin.

West effortlessly builds suspense in this sequence with nothing but silence, leaving us hanging on the edge of our seats as we strain to hear whatever the microphone is picking up.  It’s a lo-fi, un-showy technique but its use results in some of the spookiest moments I’ve ever experienced in a horror film.

With THE INKEEPERS being West’s fifth feature film, his style has been well-established.  An old-fashioned approach guides every decision, typified by a slow, brooding pace and a great deal of importance placed on the sound mix.  Even when he’s working with high production values and a contemporary story such as this one, his old-fashioned aesthetic demands that he doesn’t rely on cheap “jump out” scares like modern horror films do.

While he does acknowledge it within THE INNKEEPERS, he appropriates it to make a mockery of audience expectations, fooling us into bracing for a shock scare but continually giving us cinematic blue balls by never delivering (until the very end, that is).

This slow pacing adds an extra dimension of creepiness to his ghosts, which are easily the most viscerally terrifying depictions of apparitions that I’ve seen on-screen.  They possess all of the menace with none of the corniness, behaving much like you would expect a malevolent supernatural entity to do.

The other important element of West’s aesthetic is his placing of the story within a singular locale.  He creates in his fictionalized Yankee Pedlar Inn an insular world that’s able to block out the cynicism of our everyday reality, and allows us to indulge in superstition and belief in the paranormal.  This signature of West’s may have emerged out of indie/no-budget necessity, but he’s truly at his best when he’s guiding us through empty, foreboding architecture.

THE INNKEEPERS is West’s biggest film yet, and its release translated to a significant amount of career exposure for the young director—not just in horror circles but the larger indie world.  He always has a home for his pictures at the South By Southwest film festival, but THE INNKEEPERS propelled him to international success for the first time with screenings at Stockholm and Melbourne.

His old-fashioned approach was ironically praised as fresh, probably because the increasingly homogenized horror genre has left fans clamoring for something new, different, and bold.  THE INNKEEPERS opened may doors for West professionally, potentially providing a new path back into studio filmmaking that would be more respectful and aware of his considerable talent and vision.

While his next feature has yet to materialize, West has kept himself very busy in the independent world by collaborating with his friends on another time-honored horror genre tradition: the anthology film.


ANTHOLOGY SHORTS (2012)

While THE INNKEEPERS (2011) is director Ti West’s latest feature as of this writing, he’s kept busy with a number of directing efforts that take a page from another grand tradition of the horror genre: the anthology, or omnibus, film.  As part of the first generation of directors to come up in the age of social media, his interaction with his peers led directly to his participation in two such projectsV/H/S and THE ABC’S OF DEATH, both released in 2012.

The great thing about anthology films is that they offer the chance for a director to fully assert his or her vision.  It’s like a playground where id, ego, and superego can run around unchecked.  Omnibus films often give us a raw, unfiltered glimpse into a director’s particular aesthetic conceits.

Of his two 2012 projects, V/H/S is easily the most prestigious, having debuted at Sundance as part of their late-night programming.  His involvement with the film positioned himself alongside Joe Swanberg (his DEAD & LONELY (2009) collaborator) and Adam Wingard (2013’s YOU’RE NEXT) as emerging masters of horror.

The conceit of V/H/S is that a group of gutter punks rage across town, videotaping their exploits as they destroy abandoned houses and force women to expose themselves on-camera.  One night they break into somebody’s house to steal a particular VHS cassette tape for an unnamed client, only to find hundreds of unmarked tapes and a dead body sitting in front of a bunch of TV screens.

Undeterred by this foreboding sight, they begin to go through the tapes one by one, with each of the film’s individual segments making up its own tape.

West’s contribution appears second, and is titled SECOND HONEYMOON.  It concerns a young married couple—Sam (Joe Swanberg) and Stephanie (Sophia Takal)—on a vacation in the southwestern desert, filmed entirely from the husband’s digital video camera.  By day they explore the desert around them, but at night an unknown third entity films them with their own camera as they lie asleep in their beds.

Naturally this all leads to a bloody, surprising twist that I won’t spoil, but I will say this: SECOND HONEYMOON is easily the best segment in the film, with Swanberg’s own directorial piece (the cleverly webcam/Skype-recorded THE SICK THING THAT HAPPENED TO EMILY WHEN SHE WAS YOUNGER) coming in at a close second.

SECOND HONEYMOON was filmed on a digital consumer video camera, probably by West himself, so it fits within V/H/S’ aesthetic conceit—but it also begs the question why such a new digital format would ever be transferred back to VHS in the first place.  The camerawork is mostly handheld, utilitarian coverage- the kind you’d expect of someone who isn’t a filmmaker shooting video.

The pacing is pretty slow, as is par for the course with West, but it picks up quite luridly by the end with some excellent gore effects that only become more visceral and realistic using the found-footage conceit.

For THE ABC’S OF DEATH, twenty-six directors were each given $5,000 to make a short with complete creative autonomy. The only requirement is that the subject matter had to do with death, and should take inspiration from a singular letter of the alphabet.  West’s segment, titled M IS FOR MISCARRIAGE, is a short work—running less than a couple minutes.  It concerns a woman whose clogged toilet threatens to overflow.

What’s in the bowl?  Why, wouldn’t you know it– a dead fetus!  Charming.

The video itself is pretty grainy, with a short zoom being the only camera movement that West indulges in.  The effort as a whole is decidedly lazy, like he spent maybe $30 of the $5000 in making it and then just took off with the rest of the money for himself.  He probably knew he could do so without consequence, as he’s easily the highest-profile director associated with the work.

His laziness is pretty insulting however, and M FOR MISCARRIAGE is easily his worst, and least-inspired, work.

V/H/S brought a little more exposure for West in the form of his his first trip to Sundance, while THE ABC’S OF DEATH is (much like West’s segment) dead on arrival.  These are somewhat lackluster films to end West’s career examination on—they’re really more in-between jobs that fill out time between features, but that’s where he currently stands as of this writing.

You won’t find many instances of me dissecting the career of a director who is still very much on the rise.  But West is a special case, as he has managed to make some incredibly large waves in less than a decade of independent filmmaking. He’s brought a sense of craftsmanship, patience, and prestige back to a genre that’s been creatively bankrupt for several decades.

There’s no telling how he’ll do when he inevitably branches out into other genres, but as of right now, West represents a beacon of hope for hungry horror aficionados, as well as the indie scene at large.


THE SACRAMENT (2013)

Up until September 11th, 2001, the greatest loss of American life in a single event was not, as some may think, Pearl Harbor—or any other act of war for that matter. On November 18th, 1978, United States Congressman Leo Ryan and a small delegation visited the Peoples Temple Agricultural Project— led by a religious zealot and fanatical communist named Jim Jones and located near the northern border of Guyana.

Ryan and his delegates found a surprisingly peaceful utopia, where Temple members had settled with their families and built a new kind of society that saw everyone living in harmony and united by the teaching of their charismatic leader. However, on that fateful day in November, Jones became convinced that Ryan would return to the United States and send in the military to destroy everything they had built.

After his armed guards murdered Ryan and the delegates, Jones assembled Temple members for a meeting and announced that it was time to commit “revolutionary suicide” against the so-called fascist pigs who would most surely descend upon them in short order. They mixed cyanide with fruit punch and drank it—willingly. Over 900 people died that day, and ever since then, the specter of Jim Jones has loomed large in our collective unconscious.

Director Ti West had long held a fascination towards what came to be known as the Jonestown Massacre. He initially envisioned it as a miniseries that would follow the formation of Jones’ cult in San Francisco through their relocation to Guyana and eventual suicide. Despite being a young, upcoming independent filmmaker with a handful of well-received features under his name, West realized that his vision perhaps might be too ambitious, and subsequently scaled it back into a feature film that would apply a fictional, contemporary take on the subject matter.

Despite the failure of his first studio effort, CABIN FEVER 2: SPRING FEVER (2009), West had gained a trusted collaborator in producer Eli Roth, and it was Roth whom West first approached with his idea for a film that would come to be known as THE SACRAMENT (2013). With Roth’s help as producer, West was able to obtain financing without having written a single page of script—a testament to the benefits of having a reputation as a fiscally responsible filmmaker working within a genre that almost always makes money.

The finished product, while far from perfect, shows a great deal of growth for West as he branches out into other forms of horror and gives us a darkly disturbing glimpse into the follies of blind faith from which we can’t look away.

West’s fictional take on The Jonestown Massacre focuses through the prism of the found-footage subgenre of horror—a conceit that has admittedly been done to death by greedy studio executives looking to trim budgets and maximize profits. However, it is an extreme disservice to West in calling THE SACRAMENT a found-footage movie.

Instead, the film presents itself as a documentary by Vice Magazine, the real-life purveyor of immersive journalism documentaries. Patrick (Kentucker Audley), a young fashion photographer, has just received correspondence from his sister after several years of silence, inviting him down for a visit to her new home at a place in South American known only as “Eden Parish”. Sam (AJ Bowen)—Patrick’s friend and a journalist for Vice—volunteers to accompany Patrick and bring a videographer named Jake (Joe Swanberg) in a bid to make a documentary about this mysterious alternative community.

When they arrive at Eden Parish, located in the jungles of an unnamed South American country (but filmed in Georgia), the filmmakers are surprised to find this “utopia” guarded by aggressive men packing AK-47 machine guns. Patrick’s sister, Caroline (Amy Seimetz), welcomes them and takes them on a tour of the encampment.

Along the way, Sam and Jake interview the campers, who have nothing but high praise for Father (Gene Jones)—their charismatic leader who has devoted his life to creating a community founded on the principles of clean living and independence from the modern world. They’re even granted an interview with Father himself, and they can’t help but be impressed by his charismatic intelligence and folksy, unpretentious appeal.

But the longer they stay in this utopia, the more they uncover the darkness hidden within—a growing number of campers desperately want out, while others will stop at nothing to keep their secret society contained and unduly influenced by the outside world. In spite of the uninspiring found-footage tropes that it employs, THE SACRAMENT is a riveting looking into the dark aspects of human nature, as we all a shocking exploration of the nature of cult.

West anchors his narrative between his five leads, complementing them with one of the best cast of extras in recent memory. In lieu of casting recognizable celebrities in the roles, West plays to the POV conceits of his approach by casting two independent filmmakers—Joe Swanberg and Kentucker Audley. Both men are collaborators and close friends of West, and have been running in the same film circles for quite some time now.

Swanberg and Audley know their way around a camera, which makes it quite easy for West to simply hand off his camera to his actors and let them shoot the movie for him. AJ Bowen, who previously appeared onscreen for West in THE HOUSE OF THE DEVIL (2009), is convincing as an idealistic young journalist who is unafraid of pursuing dangerous stories.

The biggest plaudits, however, belong to Gene Jones and Amy Seimetz as the film’s best revelations. Gene Jones, perhaps best known for his bit role in the Coen Brothers’ NO COUNTRY FOR OLD MEN (2007) is a spellbinding and charismatic presence as Father. His grandfatherly, southern drawl is warm and inviting to the point that it’s easily to take anything he says as the hard-earned truth, yet he’s always hiding behind dark sunglasses (even at night).

It’s an unforgettable powerhouse of a performance, and fellow directors would be wise to keep him in mind for the future. The same can be said of Amy Seimetz, who plays Caroline, Patrick’s friendly hippie sister. She’s intensely dedicated to the cause, to the point where she becomes a crucial agent of destruction as chaos breaks out amidst Eden Parish.

Throughout his career, West has cultivated a reputation for utilizing an old-fashioned, lo-fi, film-based aesthetic. This approach served him well in his debut, THE ROOST (2005), and even more so in THE HOUSE OF THE DEVIL—which could actually fool someone if you told him or her it was made in the mid-80’s. With THE SACRAMENT’s contemporary setting and new media storytelling conceit, West foregoes the vintage patina of film for the sleek perfection of digital.

West uses the new Canon C300 line of HD video cameras, which combine the mobility and ease of 1080p-capable DSLRs with the higher bitrate and lowered compression found in digital cinema cameras. The demands of West’s found-footage conceit result in the actors operating the camera in naturally-lit, real-world locales—yet West doesn’t forego a cinematographer here, where he probably could have gotten away with it.

Instead, he recruits Eric Robbins, the cinematographer for THE ROOST, for their first collaboration in nearly ten years. Robbins’ hand is nearly imperceptible, helping West craft a bright and sunny aesthetic that’s not auspiciously scary-looking— which of course makes the horror to come all that more terrifying. Returning production designer Jade Healey does a great job turning Georgia farmland into a convincing jungle settlement in South America with the strategic placing of palm trees and spartan dwellings.

Prior to THE SACRAMENT, West had collaborated primarily with composer Jeff Grace in scoring his films. For whatever reason—perhaps Grace’s own rising star precluding his availability—West goes a different direction here with the hiring of well-known composer Tyler Bates. The character of Bates’ score accurately reflects West’s intended tone with a tribal, ominous sound that never spills over into outright horror.

Instead it lingers at a simmer, building up pressure as the film unfolds towards its finale. West also managed to secure the use of indie rock band Heartbeats’ popular track, “The Knife” for his opening credits, further establishing the “hipster cred” of the Vice documentary framing conceits.

With THE SACRAMENT, West is clearly attempting to branch out from the specific brand of contained horror that has so far been his bread and butter. It may take place in a singular location like his previous features have done and it may be marketed heavily on its horror merits, but THE SACRAMENT is unlike anything West has ever done.

Whereas found-footage films tend to pigeonhole their makers into a strict set of rules about form and execution, here West is able to liberate himself from his own strict aesthetic rules and in the process, imbue greater meaning into the film. Take the character of Father, a compelling personification of cowardly evil who exploits blind faith towards his advantage.

Through the lens of Father, THE SACRAMENT becomes a salient meditation on how religious texts can be perverted by zealotry and distorted to justify evil intentions. West’s self-discipline and courage as an artist is highly evident in how he shoots the death of one of the key characters. It is presented in a beautifully-composed wide shot (ironic considering the haphazard, chaotic aesthetic) that continues unbroken for quite a while as the character succumbs to an injection of cyanide into his neck.

We watch the poison course through his body in real time, easily becoming one of the most unnerving deaths in recent cinematic memory. This is the point where West hammers home the true terror of his idea and exhibits his mastery of the craft.

In a market oversaturated with uninspired found-footage horror films, THE SACRAMENT stands out as one of the most original, thanks to West’s careful crafting of visceral suspense which suggests that suggests none of our characters might make it out alive— therefore hooking us deeper into the film as the objectivity of the footage is suddenly called into question.

Despite a successful premiere in Toronto, THE SACRAMENT was only given a limited release that saw mixed critical reception—many no doubt were unable to get past the found footage conceit. However, THE SACRAMENT seems destined to live on in the home video market as a cult (sorry) hit, and its success there will undoubtedly position West will as he develops his next adventure.


TELEVISION WORK (2015)

Over the course of a decade, director Ti West had been quietly building an accomplished body of independent feature film work in the horror genre.  In the absence of breakout hits, he had nonetheless managed to accumulate a notable degree of creative and cultural capital that enabled his continued output.

It was only a matter of time before the indie cred he generated with films like THE HOUSE OF THE DEVIL (2009), THE INKEEPERS (2011) and THE SACRAMENT (2013) could be leveraged towards his first gig directing for prime-time television.  That time arrived in 2015, at the height of what has come to be known as the Golden Age of Television– an age in which the proliferation of limited series and serialized content would attract a caliber of directing and performance talent normally reserved for cinematic features.

A lot of good television has come out of this era, but so has a lot of bad– and, unfortunately, West’s first two efforts in this arena would fall into the latter category.  The constricting nature of the medium ultimately stifles his creative individuality, resulting in a pair of perfectly serviceable, yet anonymous and uninspired, episodes.

SCREAM: “THE DANCE” (2015)

In 2015, MTV released its serialized reboot/sequel to the SCREAM horror franchise, becoming a part of the larger wave of TV series adapted from iconic films.  West’s experience with horror, particularly the teeny-bopper variety seen in his disowned feature CABIN FEVER 2: SPRING FEVER (2009), positioned him as an ideal candidate to helm an episode of the show.

The series was executive produced by SCREAM stewards Wes Craven and the Weinstein Brothers, but the showrunners depart entirely from the established franchise canon in a bid to update the property for a new generation.  An inspired choice finds the show incorporating the framing device of a podcast, a la SERIAL, to detail the exploits of a new generation of beautiful teenagers trying to evade a mysterious masked murderer in the sleepy town of Lakewood.

 West directs “THE DANCE”, the penultimate episode of the first season that culminates in an eventful Halloween dance.  For such a high profile property as SCREAM, there’s surprisingly little in the way of familiar talent– indeed, the only recognizable face here is Bella Thorne, and even then you’re probably asking yourself “who?” as you read this.  The acting is fairly awful across the board, with MTV seemingly banking on the fresh-faced beauty of its young unknown cast distracting us from noticing.

Beyond the appearance of Halloween iconography enabled by the titular school dance, there’s little to no evidence of West’s hand here.  Well-known for his vintage visual style and fondness for shooting on film, here he must service the pre-existing digital aesthetic, which bears all the hallmarks of a fast TV shoot– utilitarian and blunt lighting, the deployment of faster handheld and steadicam moves instead of deliberate dolly or crane setups, etc.

All this being said, West does allow some creative ambition to shine through, staging a scene in which the town sheriff makes a shocking discovery during a house call in one, unbroken tracking shot.  The episode also includes a teaser prologue, which West renders in a harsh green color cast, and peppers with POV shots and surveillance camera angles that recalls the found-footage conceit of THE SACRAMENT.

SCREAM: “THE DANCE” is currently available on Netflix.

SOUTH OF HELL: “TAKE LIFE NOW” (2015)

West’s second directorial effort in the television realm is “TAKE LIFE NOW”, an episode of the little-known WEtv show SOUTH OF HELL.  Starring Mena Suvari and absolutely nobody else we’ve ever seen before, SOUTH OF HELL styles itself as a campy Southern Gothic series in the vein of TRUE BLOOD or TRUE DETECTIVE but faceplants in its execution.

Concerning something about demons inside people who can appear with the simple application of cheap green contact lenses, the story is a muddled mess of horror cliches and formulaic plotting.  West’s hiring for “TAKE LIFE NOW” no doubt originated with his relationship to the show’s executive producer, fellow horror director Eli Roth.

The episode finds the show’s characters getting involved with a mind-control cult disguised as a self-help program and led by a charismatic charlatan– a plot that echoes the setup of West’s THE SACRAMENT and most likely further facilitated his hiring.

Drunk on the spooky atmosphere of its South Carolinian setting, SOUTH OF HELL whole-heartedly embraces the iconography of the resurgent Southern Gothic subgenre, especially its trashier aspects.  Again, West is compelled to replicate a visual aesthetic that had been determined long before he was brought on board, gamely working with cinematographer Walt Lloyd in crafting the digital, harshly-lit image.

A muted color palette deals primarily in large swaths of teal, amber, and green– a common color scheme for the genre.  The cinematography is easily the strongest aspect of the show, at least as I could judge from this particular episode, but it still can’t overpower the distinct whiff of bad fan-fiction that stinks up the overall proceedings.

Despite the deliberate absences of his distinct directorial signatures, West nonetheless delivers competent work that plays into his genre wheelhouse.  This pair of episodes nonetheless marks an important milestone in West’s burgeoning career– by leveraging his success in the indie sector into paying work that will keep his skills sharp and his name on the callsheets, he continues to build a solid financial platform that will enable his creative freedom in larger, more-ambitious endeavors.


IN A VALLEY OF VIOLENCE (2016)

With an enviable body of well-crafted and warmly-received horror features under his belt, director Ti West was no doubt eager to show the cinematic community what else he could do. He had an idea for a western that drew inspiration from classic genre touchstones like HIGH PLAINS DRIFTER (1973), as well as recent action pictures like JOHN WICK (2014).

In short order, he managed to secure the participation of producer Jason Blum, whose production company, Blumhouse Pictures, had carved out a comfortable niche for itself in microbudget genre features and television shows– one of which, SOUTH OF HELL, West had recently directed an episode of.

Blum’s involvement also enabled access to actor Ethan Hawke, who had a collaborative relationship with Blum thanks to prior indie hits like THE PURGE (2013).  Reuniting with his producing partners on THE SACRAMENT (2013), Peter Phok and Jacob Jaffke, West and his creative team would venture into the deserts of New Mexico to commit his vision to celluloid.

The result, 2016’s IN A VALLEY OF VIOLENCE, would find West entering uncharted territory in a personal artistic sense, while staying true to the aesthetic conceits that have thus far propelled his career.

Like previous West narratives, IN A VALLEY OF VIOLENCE takes place in a singular, somewhat-confined location: the dying frontier town of Denton.  Ethan Hawke plays Paul, a civil war vet haunted by some untold tragedy.  He’s on his way down to Mexico, his only companion being his trusty dog– who he’s trained to be a ruthless killing machine on command.

Paul stops in Denton’s saloon for a quick drink before continuing on, but manages to entangle himself in a fight with James Ransone’s Gilly, a cocky lawman with a chip on his shoulder and a lot to prove.  He wins said fight, utterly humiliating Gilly in the process in full view of his posse (one of whom is played by Larry Fessenden, an early collaborator of West’s and an old filmmaking mentor from his internship days).

 In retaliation, Gilly and his posse ambush Paul in the middle of the night and kill his beloved dog.  A heartbroken Paul vows total revenge, riding back into town for a day of reckoning.  West spins an incredibly lean and straightforward narrative, venturing little outside of the central Paul vs. Gilly conflict save for Paul’s alliance with Taissa Farmiga’s sweet, lovestruck hotel clerk Mary-Anne, and his reluctant enmity with Gilly’s father, Marshal Clyde Martin.

 John Travolta earns second billing as the good Marshal, a morally-compromised lawman with a wooden leg.  The action builds to an appropriately-explosive climax with no shortage of bloodletting, but West’s true interest lies in the nuanced relationship between his morally-ambiguous leads.  The white hat/black hat dichotomy is a well-trod convention of the western genre, but West subverts it entirely in favor of letting the dynamic complexities of his gray-hat leads shine through.

IN A VALLEY OF VIOLENCE may be West’s first film working with bonafide star talent like Ethan Hawke or John Travolta, but behind the camera, he assembles a core creative team made up of longtime collaborators.  Some, like cinematographer Eric Robbins or sound designer Graham Reznick, have been with him since his first feature– 2005’s THE ROOST.

 Robbins imbues the 2.35:1 35mm film frame with a dusty, earth-tone palette appropriate to the Old West setting, embracing the iconography of classic westerns past while bringing its own unique identity to the table.  West and Robbins also utilize classical camerawork like cranes and dollies in conjunction with modern techniques like handheld setups and slow zooms, injecting a kinetic freshness into a genre that hasn’t seen much innovation since the days of Sergio Leone.

Perhaps the most striking aspect of the film’s cinematography lies in the way West and Robbins render Paul’s civil war flashbacks.  They present these sequences as nightmares, borrowing contemporary horror techniques like staging a chase in the woods at night and lighting it almost entirely by flashlight.

Longtime production designer Jade Healy returns as well, building the entirety of Denton out in the New Mexican desert quite literally as a sandbox for West and company to play around in.  Finally, frequent composer Jeff Grace returns after sitting out THE SACRAMENT, channeling the style of Ennio Morricone with an eclectic mix of guitar riffs, drums, spurs, and synth strings.

As previously mentioned, IN A VALLEY OF VIOLENCE is West’s first genre exercise out of the horror/thriller realm, seemingly content to tackle the conventions of the western in a straightforward manner.  Indeed, on first glance, most if not all West’s features seem rather straightforward in their storytelling– another look, however, reveals these otherwise “straightforward” narratives are nevertheless born of a postmodern technical approach.

THE HOUSE OF THE DEVIL (2009) embraced its 1980’s period setting to the point that it was physically crafted and marketed to appear like it had been made contemporaneously.  THE INKEEPERS (2011) married the visual conceits of the Victorian haunted house story with the modern technological era.  Even THE SACRAMENT used its found-footage structure to question the objectivity of the format itself.

IN A VALLEY OF VIOLENCE subverts the swashbuckling nature of the western genre by using the visual grammar of horror during Paul’s climactic vengeance spree.  Beyond narrative beats like Larry Fessenden’s character getting his throat slashed in the bathtub, West employs the type of framing and movement one expects to see in a scary movie– or not see, given West’s strategic withholding of visual information from his compositions in favor of aural suggestion.

The vintage aesthetic that’s marked West’s body of work to date expectedly surfaces IN A VALLEY OF VIOLENCE, even if West is barely making a conscious effort to do so.  In an age where most indie films like this one would have been shot digitally, West’s choice to shoot on glorious 35mm film is an old-fashioned one by its very nature.

West further evokes the mid-century style of spaghetti westerns by borrowing (rather liberally, I might add) from the graphic style of Leone’s FISTFUL OF DOLLARS’ opening titles for his own credits.  The result is a modern, modest western that pays homage to its cinematic forebears, destined to age gracefully thanks to the timeless quality of its execution.

IN A VALLEY OF VIOLENCE received a high profile premiere at South By Southwest, bowing to mostly positive reviews.  However, it didn’t have much staying power at the box office, leaving the arthouse circuit almost as fast as it arrived.  Thankfully, it was made under the Blumhouse model, which it to say it was churned out on the cheap as part of a larger slate, and its failure to perform could be subsidized by the profits from Blum’s other pictures.

Despite its almost-certain destiny as a minor work in West’s filmography, IN A VALLEY OF VIOLENCE nevertheless exhibits an ambitious young director using his established skill set in the horror realm to become a more well-rounded filmmaker overall.


“WAYWARD PINES” EPISODES (2016)

Director Ti West’s 2015 stints on MTV’s SCREAM and WEtv’s SOUTH OF HELL established him as a viable filmmaker in the television space, which, in the age of streaming and endless content, presents a far more reliable supply of paycheck opportunities than feature filmmaking can provide.  After releasing his under-the-radar western IN A VALLEY OF VIOLENCE (2016), West returned to TV, leveraging his experience working with high-profile talent like Ethan Hawke and John Travolta into the bigger-budget world of broadcast productions.

He was hired to direct two episodes from the second season of the popular Fox show, WAYWARD PINES— the brainchild of M. Night Shyamalan and Chad Hodge, adapted from the eponymous book series by Blake Crouch.  He was assigned a mid-season episode titled “EXIT STRATEGY” as well as the season finale, “BEDTIME STORY”, either of which would have been a plum gig for an enterprising young filmmaker like West.

 Considering that the series has yet to get picked up for a 3rd season, West’s effort takes on an added significance: making him responsible for the finale of the entire series.  In effect, he would have to finish what Shyamalan started.

WAYWARD PINES is a mystery drama in the vein of David Lynch’s TWIN PEAKS, albeit with a major sci-fi twist: it’s actually the year 4032, and the small mountain town of Wayward Pines is the last bastion of humanity after a mutated strain of humans has obliterated the rest of the species.  West’s episodes in particular both circle towards the endgame, showing how the threat posed by the Abbeys (as the mutants are called, short for “aberration”) will reach its logical conclusion.

The plots of the individual episodes don’t quite transcend the well-worn plot manipulations of standard broadcast dramas, but the show’s sci-fi/horror twist provides enough intrigue to keep things moving along at a brisk clip.  Far more interesting about the stories contained within West’s episodes is the opportunities it provides to work with established character actors like Jason Patric, Djimon Hounsou, and Shannyn Sossamon.

As appropriate for the medium of broadcast prime time television, “EXIT STRATEGY” and “BEDTIME STORY” contain little to none of West’s unique artistic signatures.  He’s forced to adapt to the stylistic decisions of others– Shyamalan’s most of all, considering his role in establishing the series’ overall aesthetic by directing the pilot.

The digital cinematography is appropriately dark and moody, albeit with an intangible flimsiness, an unfortunate byproduct of TV production’s fast-paced nature.  That being said, there’s definitely a concrete style at play here– a shallow depth of field coats the background of nearly every shot in a thick veil of fuzziness, and flashier techniques like canted angles and drone photography supplement the standard coverage workhorses.

Judging from West’s episodes alone, one compelling aspect of WAYWARD PINES’ aesthetic is the recurring use of unconventional compositions, which often throw the subject off to an extreme edge of the frame in favor of a considerable amount of dead space.  This makes for a captivating, if slightly uneasy, viewing experience that pulls the audience ever deeper into the gloomy intrigue.

West’s work here is serviceable, delivering what I imagine is a satisfying conclusion to the season (or series, as it may turn out).  It doesn’t offer much in the way of personal artistic growth, other than the continued experience of working with recognizable performers, but it nevertheless solidifies West’s portfolio of commission work and positions him well for the leap into prestige TV, should he want it.


Author Cameron Beyl is the creator of The Directors Series and an award-winning filmmaker of narrative features, shorts, and music videos.  His work has screened at numerous film festivals and museums, in addition to being featured on tastemaking online media platforms like Vice Creators Project, Slate, Popular Mechanics and Indiewire. To see more of Cameron’s work – go to directorsseries.net.

THE DIRECTORS SERIES is an educational collection of video and text essays by filmmaker Cameron Beyl exploring the works of contemporary and classic film directors. ——>Watch the Directors Series Here <———

IFH 652: Writing for Emotional Impact (Audiobook Preview)

In this episode, you get a FREE PREVIEW of the IFH Books release of Writing for Emotional Impact: Advanced Dramatic Techniques to Attract, Engage, and Fascinate the Reader from Beginning to End by Karl Iglesias. Enjoy!

When reading a story, there are three kinds of feelings: boredom, interest, and wow! To become a successful writer, you must create the wow feeling on as many pages as possible, which requires writing that engages the reader emotionally.

In his best-selling book, screenwriter Karl Iglesias explored the working habits of A-list Hollywood scribes. Now, he breaks new ground by focusing on the psychology of the reader.

Based on his acclaimed classes at UCLA Extension, Writing for Emotional Impact goes beyond the basics and argues that Hollywood is in the emotion-delivery business, selling emotional experiences packaged in movies and TV shows.

Karl not only encourages you to deliver emotional impact on as many pages as possible, he shows you how, offering you hundreds of dramatic techniques to take your writing to the professional level.

In this audiobook, you will learn:

  • Over 40 techniques to humanize a character for instant empathy
  • The seven essential storytelling emotions
  • Over 70 techniques to create them
  • Over 50 ways to craft powerful scenes, including the emotional palette
  • Over 30 techniques to shape your words and energize your narrative description
  • The most common dialogue flaws and fixes for each
  • Over 60 techniques to craft dynamic dialogue that snaps, crackles, and pops off the page

Not only does Karl Iglesias “get” emotion, but he also shares insider secrets for moving the reader from tears to laughter and everywhere in between.

Alex Ferrari 2:12
Well guys, today you are in for a treat. I am bringing to you a another audio book preview from IFH books. Now the author of this book is Karl Iglesias, who is a author story guru, and been a guest on the show many times actually is one of the most popular guests that's ever been on the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, and Karl and I got together to release the audio book version, which is basically a seminar based on his best selling seminal work in story called Writing for Emotional Impact. Now you're gonna get a little bit of a taste of what this book is. And if you want a free audiobook copy of Writing for Emotional Impact by Karl Iglesias, all you have to do is go to freefilmbook.com And subscribe to a free account on Audible. When you do that. You get one free book and you just go to go pick up that book. And there you go. Now you could do that or you could just pick it up on Audible if you already have an account and and pick it up that way. But it is a great, great, great book. And I'm so excited to be sharing this with you guys. So without any further ado, enjoy your free preview of Writing for Emotional Impact by Karl Iglesias.

Bulletproof Screenwriting and IFH books presents Writing for Emotional Impact, advanced dramatic techniques to attract engage and fascinate the reader from beginning to end by Karl Iglesias performed by Karl Iglesias

Introduction. It's not about plot points. It's not about act structure. It's not about character. It's all about emotion. There are three kinds of feelings when you read a story, boredom, interest, and wow. To become a successful screenwriter, you must create that wow feeling on as many pages as possible. And this requires writing that engages the reader emotionally. In his best selling book 101 Habits of Highly Successful screenwriters, screenwriter Karl Iglesias explored the working habits of a list Hollywood scribes. Now he breaks new ground by focusing on the psychology of the reader based on his acclaimed classes at the UCLA Extension. Writing for emotional impact goes beyond the basics, and argues that Hollywood is in the emotion delivery business selling emotional experiences packaged in movies and TV shows. Karl not only encourages you to deliver emotional impact on as many pages as possible. He shows you how offering you Hundreds of dramatic techniques to take your writing to the professional level. What you're about to listen to, is the screenwriting masterclass that inspired Karl to write the book Writing for Emotional Impact. Everything in the book is based on this seminar. But this seminar goes a little bit deeper than the book does. So you are in for a treat. I personally read this book early on in my screenwriting career, and I can't tell you what an impact no pun intended, it had on my life as a storyteller, and specifically as a screenwriter, getting my screenplays read and optioned by major Hollywood producers. I am so proud to present Writing for Emotional Impact as the first of many books in the bulletproof screenwriting audio book series, sit back and enjoy. Alex Ferrari, writer, director, producer podcaster, author, public speaker, and founder of Indie Film, Hustle, Filmtrepreneur, and Bulletproof Screenwriting.

Karl Iglesias 6:04
Thank you very much. And welcome to this seminar on dialogue. When we talk about crafting fresh dialogue for emotional impact. We're presenting lots and lots and lots of techniques, along with script examples to give you a set of tools that you can use to go over your dialogue and and make it that much fresher and sharper, and just make it like crackle, pop and pop off the page. So my name is Carly glaces. I'm the author of the one on one Habits of Highly Successful screenwriters, and the upcoming writing for emotional impact, which is all about the craft. Okay, without further ado, let's dive into what we're going to what are we going to be talking about today? What dialogue must accomplish in the script, the most common dialogue problems and how to fix them? What constitutes great dialogue. And I've actually separated into four categories emotional impact, individuality, meaning how to write individual dialogue, unique voices to separate your characters. One of the most important things how to provide information through your dialogue in a subtle way. Because what I see a lot in scripts, amateur scripts, is just plain old on the nose, really boring, an obvious exposition. And lastly, we're going to talk a little bit a little bit about subtext, which actually will be covered in depth in the next seminar, the psychology of subjects. So I'll talk a little bit about it, but I won't give you actual techniques that will be the next seminar. And you will have a lot of homework after this seminar because I will tell you give you a list of the dialogue masters that you have to read. Okay, one of the best ways to learn how to write is to read scripts, rather than going to the movies, because you can actually see how the other writer writes on the page and how we evokes an emotion in the reader. Whereas in the movie theaters, you're experiencing the emotions, from the craft of about 200 craftsman, the music, the cinematography, the editing, so there's no way to find out how to do it on the page. So the only way to do it is to through reading the scripts. And I'll tell you which writers are considered great dialogue masters for you to study. Okay, so let's start with what dialogue must accomplish. Most of the books and seminars, unfortunately, dialog tend to be glossed over. And the reason for that is that most people believe that data cannot be taught in a sense. And there's a little bit of truth to that people thinking I've ever an ear, just like a musician. You know, Downton has a good ear, that one must accomplish several things. What you read is that it must advance the plot, right? It must events provide exposition, and reveal character. This is usually the two things that teachers teach. But as you'll see right now, it actually has to accomplish a lot of different things too. And I'll go through each one carefully. The very first thing is reveal character. That's an obvious what a character says and how he says it or she says it reveals their character, it must reflect the speaker's mood, and emotions. It must also reveal or hide the speaker's motivation. The most common one is advance the action and carry information or exposition. And this is what I see in about 99% of amateur scripts. Most of the dialogue is a straight information. It should foreshadow what's to come. And of course, it should have emotional impact. And by that I mean that the dialogue should be funny, tense, you know, etc, etc. This is what great dialogue does, it provides emotional impact. So what I'm going to do is actually talk about some of the most common dialogue problems that I see in amateur scripts. And we'll talk about also how to fix them. Okay. And this will be in order meaning from the least common to the most common

So what I see a lot is what we call stilted or formal dialogue. And stilted means that it's very literary, it's grammatically correct. Another thing you see a lot is that dialects are hard to read. A lot of amateur writers create a character that's from a particular region or country and actually write and actually phonetically spell the dialect, so that when you when you read it, you technically hear it. It's good to certain point, but what I see a lot is that there, it's really hard to read, and that takes you out of the reading, you try to figure out what is he saying, okay, and I'll show you a way of how to fix that. So Dalits are to read, try to avoid, try to avoid that characters talk too much. In other words, you see a lot of huge chunks of dialogue, in scenes, characters all talk the same, this is a very, very common thing. And usually the voice is the writers, obviously, you know, it's every chunk of dialogue, you see, every character speaks the same way. And one of the ways to, one of the standards you should shoot for is to actually hide the characters names in your script, once you print it out, like the first draft, hide it and then read the dialogue. And you should be able to know who's speaking just from the dialogue customer, that's your standard. Dialogue is predictable. You see this a lot in bad television, and even good television sometimes actually see that. And this is when you're able to predict what the next response will be to dialogue. You know, if somebody says I love you, the most common response I was all the time I love you to write. And your job as a screenwriter is to write unpredictable dialogue. Dialogue is wooden, flat and bland. And this usually occurs through the exposition when you see exposition, and this is, you know, straight information. It's also flat, it's bland, it's boring. Dialogue is to expose a story. And the reason for that is because the writer doesn't know how to write, provide exposition in a subtle way. And then, of course, who can predict what the last and biggest problem is? Dialogue is on the nose, the most common problem. And under nose means that the dialogue has exactly what a character is thinking, what the character wants. character's motivation, desires, it's just on the nose when it's exactly what they're thinking and want to say. And the reason is boring. I'll talk about it in a second. I shall talk about it in subtext seminar, because that will be the bulk of this of this problem. Okay, so what constitutes great dialogue, emotional impact, individuality, meaning each character has their own voice, subtle exposition, and then subtext. Okay, so I'm gonna start now with the very first category, emotional impact. And what I'll do is actually give you the technique, and I'll show you examples from scripts, okay? And you'll be able to see it in action from great scripts, so cliche alternatives as your very first technique. And as the title implies, it just means turning nucleus taking cliches, cliche lines, as you've heard and turning them to your advantage meaning use an alternative to that okay. And let me show an example. This is from Lethal Weapon by Shane Black. Oh, by the way, guy who shot me Yeah, same dose shot Lloyd Jesus. You sure? I never forget an asshole. Okay, now what would have been the cliche there? The cliche would have been I never forget to face right that's a line you've heard 100 times shame black to deadline. It's a cliche and just tweak tweaked it just a bit. And made I never forget an s&m it that made it funny. All right. So that's one example. This is an example from body heat by Lawrence Kasdan. This is a scene where received played by William Hurt and Maddie played by kissing Turner are in the bar. And obviously they're attracted to each other. Most men are a little boys. Maybe you should drink at home. Too quiet. Maybe you shouldn't dress like that. This is a blouse and a skirt. I don't know what you're talking about. You shouldn't wear that body. Okay, great line. What would have been the cliche line there? You shouldn't wear that dress. Okay, in this case, you just tweaked a little bit. You shouldn't wear that body and just raise it to another level. So that's an alternative to a cliche. Let me give you another example is from 48 hours. I love this example.

Crazy. Oh, you guys were in like last week. You better ask around. I'm not supposed to be hassled I got friends. Hey, Park the tongue for a second suite bands. We just want to search the room. Okay, where's the well What would have been the cliche, this isn't the second response that from vents on Twitter said, Hey, shut up, or Hey, quiet. That would have been a cliche, right? But he said, park the tongue for a second. Okay, a little witty alternative. So that's three examples for a cliche alternative. Let me give you another technique. That's called the combat Zinger. This is pretty self explanatory. Now, everybody knows what a zinger is. Right? So it's a quick way to come back. That's usually supposed to attack a person. This is very common in buddy films, right? Like 48 hours rush hour, one person sets up the line, the other person just comes back with a zinger just back and forth. And I think in Saturday Night Live too they had they have a character who's like, Mr. Zinger, right and the whole thing so you understand the concept. So let me give some examples of combat zingers. This is also from 48 hours. We in brothers, we ain't partners and we ain't friends. And if Dan's gets away with my money, you're gonna be sorry, you ever met me? I'm already Sorry. Okay, so it's a little Zinger there. From aliens. One of the lines that got the biggest laughs laughs in the movie. Vasquez is a is the woman Marine, right? Hudson Hey Vasquez Have you been mistaken for a man? No Have you Okay, come back so you hear this from All About Eve great strip by the way to study because it's got like hundreds and hundreds of really witty lines and comebacks from Mankiewicz. Bill is it sabotaged as my career nothing to you have you know human consideration? Show me a human and I might have Okay, so Margo is insulting. All right. Exaggeration is your another set of techniques. And this is a great device to amuse the reader. Now exaggerations are not meant to be taking literally okay, you exaggerate something so they're supposed to be taking metaphorically and I want to show you examples. You'll see what I'm talking about. This from Annie Hall, Woody Allen. After he parks the car. Don't worry, we can walk to the curb from here. Okay, remember she parked the car a little far. Okay, that's an exaggeration. And then later on, there's another line where it says Honey, there's a spider in your bathroom the size of a Buicks. Okay, that's an exaggeration. Obviously, there's a spider is not the size of the Buick, but just the line itself. Metaphorically, it just sounds great. Okay, so exaggeration. Another example. This is from the Gilmore Girls. No, I don't watch that show. But I I've seen a couple episodes. And it's incredibly witty is like the lines just go like that. So it's a great script. I actually read a couple of scripts and it has been going oh my god, this is really great, great dialogue. My parents set me up with a son of a business associate. He's going to be a doctor, how old is he? 16. So he's going to be a doctor in 100 years. My parents like to plan ahead. Okay, so the exaggeration there is gonna be a doctor in like 100 years, okay. And from as good as it gets, Carol, an ear infection can send us to the emergency room maybe five, six times a month, where I get whatever nine year old they just made a doctor nice chatting with you. Okay, you see the with exaggeration here is the nine year old doctor, whatever nine year old, they made a doctor. So it just raises your dial up to my level when you use that particular technique. All right, call me comparison is another technique. Now this is about humor. It's a humor technique, actually. And a lot of people think, well, you need to be funny. I agree. Okay, you need to actually be funny to come up with funny lines. But if you really study humor, you come up with actually the code the sides. So universally, humor is a science in a sense, you know, probably more science than art. And if you really study this is one technique, which is the most common techniques in humor, which is to compare two things that creates the laughter and I'll show you an example. So this is technical comic comparison. Nice to meet you. Oh, and who might this be? This is Eddie. This is the dog. I call him Eddie spaghetti. Oh, he likes pasta. No, he has words. Okay. So that that laugh was generated because he's actually comparing it with spaghetti pasta and comparing it with worms. Okay, here's another example. This is from Notting Hill. Ah, there's something wrong with this yogurt. It's mayonnaise. Oh, okay. Remember that? That scene? Okay. It's comparing, you know, yogurt with mayonnaise.

Okay, next one is from Monty Hall. It's so clean out here. That's because they don't throw their garbage away to turn into television. And okay, we're talking about Los Angeles. You remember that is a great script to read to, obviously this Picture Academy Award. So obviously compared TV with garbage in this case. So common comparison. All right, moving on. Something called lists. This is very self explanatory. This is about using specific lists for dramatic effect, which can include usually, this is used a lot to show a character's frustration. Just feels a little secret there. Let me show you some examples. This is gonna be hard to read because a lot of it but this is the scene in Erin Brockovich where the love interest is introduced, and Isa is asking for her number. And she says, which number do you want? George? You got more than one? Shit? Yeah, I got numbers coming out of my ear. Like for instance, 1010. Sure, that's one of my numbers. is how many months old? My little girl is you got a little girl. Yeah, sexy, huh? And here's another five. That's how old my other daughter is. Seven is my son's age two is how many times I've been married and divorce you getting all this? 16 is the number of dollars in my bank account. 4543943 is my phone number. And with all the numbers I gave you, I'm guessing zero is the number of times you're gonna call it. Okay. So there's the list right there. So giving him a list of numbers. And this is really, really well done. Give me another example. Numbers some something's got to give with Jack Nicholson and Diane Keaton. Can we talk tomorrow? What for? I saw your friend you were having dinner with is that what is that what you want? It's never going to work with me. Look at me. I'm, I'm a middle aged woman. Don't let this brown hair fool you. I don't have real brown hair on my head. I'm almost all gray. That would freak you out, wouldn't it? And I have high cholesterol and my back hurts every morning and I'm postmenopausal and I have osteoporosis and I'm sure arthritis is just around the corner. And I know you've seen my varicose veins let's face it, man, that's not quite the buzz you're looking for. All right, a list of all her little ailments. Now actually, this illustrates a good point because you know you have a lot of teachers that tell you to not have huge chunks of dialogue right? Tell you only one or two liners, but this works because it's using one of the techniques or this particular chunk of dialogue has emotional impact. And the secret here is that when you have emotional impact, it doesn't matter how long your your speech is. Okay? The reader is not thinking oh, this is too long. This is amateur because he's really impacted by that speech. Okay, another example this from be dazzled. Not a good film, but the script was okay. The original is even better by the way. The devil there's nothing sinister here paragraph one states that either devil and nonprofit or corporation with offices in purgatory hell in Los Angeles will give you seven wish wishes to use as you as you see fit. Why seven? Why not? Eight? Why not? Six? I don't know seven. Sounds right. It's a magical mystical thing. Seven Days of the Week Seven Deadly Sins seven ops seven dwarfs, okay. Okay, so there's the list right there at the bottom. It also creates a nice rhythm to it, which is really important in in dialogue. All right, one of my favorite techniques is metaphors and similes. Now, I think they spoke about metaphors and similes into description when you use descriptions. This is for dialog. Jenna metaphor for those. Those of you who don't know is when you compare something you say this particular thing is something else. Like, you know, you try to describe somebody, sneaky guy and you say he's a snake. Okay, that's a metaphor, but if you say he is like a snake, that's a simile. So let me give you some examples of this from Bull Durham. Another excellent script. Is somebody going to go to bed with somebody or what your regular nuclear meltdown honey slow down. Okay. So the very first one there your your conscious comparing to a nuclear meltdown, your regular nuclear meltdown, that's a metaphor. And then later on, crush this guy hit the shit out of that one, huh? Well, I held it like an egg. And he scrambled the son of a bitch. I mean, fun yet. Okay. This is after he told him you have to hold the ball like an egg when you pitch it. The guy doesn't think I pitch the ball and he slams it like a hole for a homerun and he's trying to figure out so I held it like an egg is the simile and then he scrambled a son of a bitch. Right? Instead of saying he hit the homerun which would have been on the nose. He says he scrambled the son of a bitch. That's really interesting. Metaphor. And then of course All About Eve which has hundreds of them.

There's a sudden Sharpie out from the bathroom. You're supposed to zip the zipper not me like trying to zip a pretzel standstill. Bill grins To what a documentary those two would make, like the Mongoose and the Cobra. Okay. So just in that little three lines you have like to write, zipper pretzel, and like a mongoose and the Cobra and from Casa Blanca, another great script that has a lot of metaphors, similes, and just all around great dialogue. My interest is whether Victor Laszlo stays or goes, is purely a sporting one. In this case, you have no sympathy for the fox, not particularly, I understand the point of view of the Hound to Okay, so you're comparing what's going on, you know, the Nazis after Victor Laszlo, like a fox hunt. And this is the reason when, you know, obviously, when you don't know the all these techniques, basically, when you read the script, you're going wow, this this is also conscious reading that you're going wow, this is great writing. You're not stopping on this is it? But as a writer, you have to notice this as a writer when you have mastery of the craft. This is what we're talking about. Okay. Really funny one from Austin Powers, The Spy Who Shagged Me Dr. Evil, you're not quite evil enough. You're semi evil, you're quasi evil. You're the margarine of evil. You're the Diet Coke of evil, just one calorie not evil enough. Okay. This can also be also like lists too, because he's going through the whole list of them, but obviously a lot of metaphors there. Okay. Another great technique is called parallel construction. Now this is to create rhythm and dialogue. A lot of politician use that in speeches, by the way, the parallel construction. And like, for example, Martin Luther King, I have a dream you keep repeating of a dream. Jeff Kay's line, a famous line asked, not what the country can do for you ask what you can do for your country. That's a parallel construction. And we'll show you some examples of that. This is from Rocky. Look, Bob, if you want to dance, you got to pay the band. If you borrow, you got to pay them in me I get emotionally involved. Okay, so the parallel construction is this the first line if you want to dance, you got to do this. If you borrow, you have to do that. Okay, so it's, it's the same construction as the first line, and it just creates a nice rhythm. Let me give you another example. From Apocalypse Now. shirts. We must kill them. We must incinerate them pig after pigs cow after cow village after village army after army. So you see a whole bunch of them. You see how they're all constructed the same way parallel construction. And then from the Gilmore Girls again. Oh grandpa as the insurance biz, people die. We pay people crash cars we pay people lose the food we pay. All right. Another technique progressive dialog. Now as the name implies, this means it's dialogue that actually progresses either upwardly or downwardly. And I'll show you an example what I mean by that. This from Monty Python, flying circus. This is sketch the interview is interviewing a camel spotter. So in three years you spotted no camels? Yes, in three years. I tell a lie for be fair five. I've been camo spotting for just the seven years. Before that, of course, I was a yeti spotter. A Yeti spotter? That must have been interesting. You've seen one, you've seen them all. And have you seen them all? Well, I've seen one. Well, a little one. A picture of I've heard of them. Okay, so actually this liquid exam because you have both you have the upward progression where he's talking about the years, right? I've seen him in three years on or four. I've seen seven years, right. So that creates an effect that's progressively up. And then the last line is progressively down. I've seen one. I've seen a picture. You know, I've heard of him. Okay, so that creates a nice effect. This is another example from almost famous Cameron Crowe script. Penny Lane. How old are you? 18 Me too. How old? Are we really? 17 Me too. Actually. I'm 16 Me too. Isn't it funny? The truth just sounds different. I'm 15 right? Remember that scene. So this here we have a downward progression. creates a really nice exchange, and then a famous one from Glengarry Glen Ross, David Mamet. Blake, we're adding a little something to this month's sales contest. As you all know, first prize is a Cadillac Eldorado. Anyone wants the second prize. Second prize is a set of steak knives, third prices, you're fired. Okay, so obviously another upward progression here. Okay, this is one of my favorite favorite favorites. techniques are called push button dialog. Now as the name implies, eyes. This is dialogue that pushes someone else's buttons.

And causes an emotional reaction. Now, it doesn't have to be a nasty thing like you're trying to insult them, they'll be like a combat Zinger. It could be also you want to make them like you want them to love you. So, you know, you also would say a line, and I'll show examples of that too. But if you if you think about your most famous of like, favorite favorite lines of dialogue in the history of movies, okay, there, chances are like seven out of 10 of them are push button dialog techniques. Okay? They're really really effective. So famous lines, like, you know, frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. That's a push button dialog. You're not too smart. Are you? I like that in a man. That's that's from body heat. And okay, let me give some examples of this from real genius. Oh, you're the new starter? Are you? Or is it dud? How do you mean start hotshot brain? Your 12 year old right? I'm 15. Does you probably know that. Okay, He's insulting his intelligence push button. Right? They're as good as it gets as a couple of them there. Oh, come on. Come on in and try not to ruin everything by being you. All right. And then later on, Carol, when you first came into breakfast, when I saw you I thought you were handsome. Then of course you spoke and other push button. And now there's a great line from Silence of the Lambs. laughter Why do you think he removes their skins agent Starling thrilled me with your acumen. It excites him. Most serial killers keep some sort of trophies from their victims. I didn't know you ate yours. Okay, cool. Push, push his buttons there. And vice versa. Actually, one of the most most memorable scenes is when both people are pushing their buttons back and forth, you know. From another example, from something's gotta give, wow, it's the perfect beach house. I know, my mother doesn't know how to do things that aren't perfect, which explains you. Okay. So in this case, that's, you know, he's actually giving her a compliment, right? So it's pushing her romance buttons there. So it doesn't all have to be negative. Okay, and this is kind of a little long, but this is the famous body heat scene. I'm a married woman, meaning what? Meaning I'm not looking for a company she chose back towards the ocean, then you should have said I'm a happily married woman. That's my business. What? How happy I am. And how happy is that? You're not too smart. Are you? I like that in a man. All right, famous line from body heat. All right. Let's do one of three more techniques under that category. This is reversals. And this is when, as the name implies, a reversal is when a character takes the opposite turn in the middle of a thought. All right, let me give some examples of that reversals as good as it gets. You want to dance I've been thinking about for a while. And Carol rises and no. Okay. You see the reversal there? That creates humor. When Harry Met Sally. I've been doing a lot of thinking and the thing is, I love you what? I love you. How do you expect me to respond to this? How about you love me too? How about I'm leaving. Okay, so you got a reversal? And actually, this is also an example of another technique you just saw. How about you love me to hop on? I'm leaving parallel construction right? From Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid William Goldman's famous script. I think we lost them. Do you think we lost them? No, neither do I. Okay, it's a very simple right very simple reversal. Creates creates an emotional impact right there. Okay. Another technique you have at your disposal is understatement. And this is the opposite of exaggeration, right? Remember, you had exaggeration in your toolbox? This is the opposite understatement. And this is when you actually that you downplay the dial up downplays you know the problem. Like the famous line in Apollo 13 Houston, we have a problem. That's a good example of understatement. All right, from almost famous, and he just shakes hands with mom and exits. As the car takes off. She'll be back in the distance we hear the whoop of her daughter. Maybe not too so that's an understatement. From psycho mother isn't quite herself today very simple. The Mother of All understatements right from last boyscout want to shame black scripts the two minute approach to door Jimmy takes out his key ring the cops are going to want to check this place out so don't disturb anything. Yes Massa Jimmy opens the door flips on the lights stopped stops in his tracks in his tracks the room has been systematically torn to pieces broken furniture shredded clothing everywhere it looks like a combat zone. I think someone disturbed some stuff Joe okay understatement.

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IFH 651: How to Avoid Cliché Genre Story Plots with Chris Vander Kaay

Have you ever thought to yourself as you were watching a movie

“I’ve seen this somewhere before.”

Well, today’s guest Chris Vander Kaay, breaks down the formulaic and predictable glory that is Hollywood filmmaking and how to avoid it.

His new book Spoiler Alert!: The Badass Book of Movie Plots: Why We All Love Hollywood Cliches takes 38 mainstream movie genres, from ‘Teen Sex Comedy’ and ‘Buddy Action Comedy’ to ‘Film Noir Detective Thriller’ and ‘Alien Invasion Thriller’, and through detailed illustrations reveals what makes them so hilariously recognizable: the key lines of dialogue, the essential visuals, the crucial characters and the indispensable cast, scenes, and props.

So grab some popcorn and buckle up for a laugh-out-loud ride through the wonderful world of cliché!

Please enjoy my conversation with Chris Vander Kaay.

Alex Ferrari 6:05
I'd like to welcome Michelle Chris Vander Kaay How are you sir?

Chris Vander Kaay 6:07
Not too bad. Thanks so much for having me on the show Alex.

Alex Ferrari 6:09
Thank you for thank you for being on the show. Man. You have a really cool idea for a book and and it's really beautifully laid out. Can you tell the audience what the name of your book is?

Chris Vander Kaay 6:20
Yeah, it's called spoiler alert, colon, the badass book of movie plots. And if I had to sort of encapsulate it, I guess I would say that it's sort of an infographic style template that walks you through the tropes and the cliches and the the framework of a lot of well known sort of popular Hollywood genres.

Alex Ferrari 6:39
Now, in the book, you talk about the good bad film, can you can you give me your definition of a good bad film?

Chris Vander Kaay 6:48
Yeah, the difference I guess the difference between a bad film and a good bad film is that both of them might not be great movies. But the ones that are good, bad films are still enjoyable, even if they're not particularly excellent that we wouldn't necessarily necessarily reward them with awards or anything like that. But they're still fun to watch. We kind of call them comfort food movies, you know, you kind of go in knowing what you're going to expect. And as long as they don't just horribly insult you, or if they do insult you, it's it's fun, and they're aware of it, then there can be a fun to it. We Kathleen and myself and Steven Kathleen Fernandez and Steven Espinosa, my co writers, we're big fans of horror films and an awful lot of horror films, or what you would consider comfort food movies. They're not going to win any awards. But they're, they're fun. And even if they are sometimes riddled with cliches, there, there's still a blast to have. And so the reason we wrote this book is it's kind of lovingly pointing those out and having fun with them. But at the same time, hopefully also being instructive. In a sort of a, I don't wanna say like, in a negative, instructive way, but in a way that we're saying, watch out for these traps, it's easy to fall into these, you know, take an extra, you know, take an extra pass at your story and see if there's a way for you to avoid some of the pitfalls that a lot of these movies have fallen into.

Alex Ferrari 8:02
So as far as good bad movies are concerned, I mean, my favorite of all time is the room. Because it is I mean, it is as perfect of a bad film as you can get. And I always I always tell people like a good bad film is it's if you try to make a bad film, like, like a cult favorite, like a being and I've seen those movies that they try to do something like they know, they have the intention of making a bad movie, kind of like Sharknado, which kind of which kind of took its own that just, I mean, you can't really be tornadoes and sharks. I mean, I mean, it's such a bad concept that it was, they knew exactly were self aware. The best good bad movies are the ones that are not self aware that authentically feel like they were creating cinema. And the room is the pure ation of that.

Chris Vander Kaay 8:51
For sure. I mean, one of the things we always talk about when we talk about these kinds of movies is that there needs to be some level of sincerity into the badness in order for us to be able to enjoy it. Because when you are cynically making a bad movie, in some ways, especially to you and to me and to other filmmakers. It feels insulting because it's like there are a lot of people out there trying to make good movies. So when you're taking up money and time and resources and intentionally making something that you think is Olafur, throw away. It, it feels kind of hostile to people who are working so hard to try and make it in this industry. But when you get a sincere filmmaker who was trying and just it's there's something about the way that they made the things there's there's a humorous ineptness sometimes that but but it's never cynical, they were really trying and they really love movies too. And there's something endearing about that. This was

Alex Ferrari 9:38
like one of my favorite movies of all time. It filmmaking movies of all time is Ed Wood. Because you watch Ed Wood, which is not a it's not a bad movie. It's a movie about Edward who was considered one of the worst directors of all time. But the sincerity, the love, the cluelessness that he had in the filmmaking, the way he made his films is what matters Plan Nine from Outer Space. So pleasurable to watch, because you watch that you're like this, like the guy took two Styrofoam plates, spray painted them, and put them on a string and expected us to believe that that was a spaceship. Like, but he wholeheartedly did like it was amazing.

Chris Vander Kaay 10:18
Yeah, well, and it's funny because one of the things he said in the in the movie that I think is really funny is he said, if if you're noticing little things like that, then you you missed the point, right? You missed the point of the story that I'm telling. And that seems funny. But then at the same time, I was literally just watching a documentary yesterday or the day before, where George Miller's cinematographer on Fury Road, was talking about how they shot on very different days, weather wise, and the cinematographer kept saying, We can't shoot this to match with what we just did. It looks completely different. And George Miller kept saying, if people are noticing the sky, I've already failed as a filmmaker. So when you look at like Ed Wood doing plan nine, and then you're in real good Fury Road, it's like it's not all that different and ethos that they're talking about. It's not

Alex Ferrari 11:01
that different, but yet it's miles apart. Like IQ shoot is everything. Yeah, my last, my last film that I directed, there were scenes where there was, there was no, there's no snow on the ground. And then there was snow on the ground. And not one person has ever called me on it, because you kind of just roll with it because the story moves along. But it's also not an element that's strict, like the sky, and the snow are nothings in your face their background elements where a spaceship is where the camera is looking.

Chris Vander Kaay 11:36
Right? Yeah, or a an orthodontist that's a foot and a half taller than your lead actor who died. And so you have him walk around with a cape in front of his face the rest of the film.

Alex Ferrari 11:46
It's just anyone listening, you have to watch Edward Snowden, the room and the documentary, The best worst movie ever made about troll two, which personally I can't watch troll to because I feel troll to suck. I think I died a little bit after I watched that movie. But the documentary about the making of the movie, and the fandom after is is brilliant. But I'm sorry, we went off on a tangent there because I don't get to talk about good bad movies very often. But so you you really break down, you know, from what I saw, you really break down a good amount of plots. But there's always so is there a number of plots that you feel that's like this is a good core plot, and then you could obviously, you know, mix them in left and right all over the place?

Chris Vander Kaay 12:30
Well, when we originally did, when we originally pitched the book, it was actually going to be 50 genres that we were going to cover. And we brainstormed out God, almost 100 I think total. And what we realized was that there were certain ones that overlapped on each other a tiny bit. And so we would start to eliminate the ones that were going to be a little too close to each other. And once we started doing that, you know, there's there's certain horror sub genres that will we'll touch on each other a little bit. And so we were like, well, we don't know which one is going to be the most fun of the two of these to do what has the most the cliches that are easier to exaggerate or to get jokes out of, because we want the book to be entertaining at the same time that it's, you know, helping someone to learn about the structure of a story. But and so we ultimately settled on 38 Out of the 50 that we constructed. And for, you know, page count and cost count issues, were the other reasons we decided on that. But the 38 that we came up with, were the ones that we thought for volume one of a book like this, and hopefully, fingers crossed, we'll have a second volume, depending on how well it sells. But for the first volume, the goal was pick the big ones. These are the ones that hopefully everyone will recognize at least a few tropes from every one of these movies, because they've seen at least a handful of these movies. And so that was sort of our guiding light for the first book was, even if you haven't seen a bunch of heist movies, it's well enough known culturally that you'll recognize some of these cliches. Yeah, and

Alex Ferrari 13:51
I find that a lot of first time screenwriters and myself included when I was starting to write, I would fall into the as Robert McKee says the dreaded the dreaded cliche, the dreaded dialogue, cliche or story plot cliches, and you are pointing out every one of these cliches in these genres. So it's a very valuable book to have on the shelf just to kind of skim through maybe you maybe you're writing the cliche, you don't even think you're writing the cliche, and all of a sudden you're like, oh my god, is this a cliche you like, you might not even be aware of it, because it's something that you might like, no one's ever done this before. I'm like, No, everyone in this genre has done this before. Which is which is really interesting. And I think it is one of the really, I mean, I've read a lot of scripts over my in my years. And the biggest problem is cliched dialogue, cliche story plots, cliche characters, especially in every single one of these genres. So like, when Lethal Weapon came out. Every everybody was about the buddy cop movie. You know, it was like, it was like, I think 48 hours came out first. I think if I'm not mistaken. 48 hours came out before Lethal Weapon it was like 85 it and that was kind of I don't know if that was the birth of the buddy cop movie, but it was that kind of comedic. Well, I'd never seen anything like

Chris Vander Kaay 15:13
that before. Yeah, I mean so far as I know Walter Hill is generally credited with sort of creating the buddy cop not that there haven't been movies with two characters before. But that specific dynamic of the of the either the the straight laced cop and the wild card or the the cop and the criminal partnering up, that is pretty much Oh, to Walter Hill, and in large part, not that it's never been done before, but he really codified it, so that it was clear what the elements of that sub genre were going to be moving forward.

Alex Ferrari 15:41
Yeah. And then Shane Black took it to a whole other place with lethal weapon and then, and it just kept going. And then red heat. I remember right, he came out a little while after that, with Arnold and James Belushi and, and then the buddy cop movie was like a trope of the 80s Like, it's, you still see it nowadays, but not as much as you did in the 80s and early 90s.

Chris Vander Kaay 16:00
Yeah, it's kind of moved into TV. Now, TV is kind of the place where you have the it's almost sort of like leaned into that the first iteration was the the straight laced one of the wildcard. And now they're sort of The X Files dynamic, which is the believer skeptic dynamic, right? And that's sort of become the new trope for the two person team of investigators.

Alex Ferrari 16:19
Right so yeah, in the the CSI style worlds or or the SVU style worlds right out there, they have those kinds of dynamics. I still like the buddy cop movie I mean, it's a good buddy cop movies never can know for sure

Chris Vander Kaay 16:33
was a nice guys, another one from Shane Black, you know, 30 years removed from it's a, you know, probably it's the era it would have done great in, but you know, just a few years ago, again, really, really fun. It's so it's such a simple construction, but if well executed can be so fun and super entertaining,

Alex Ferrari 16:51
and it didn't do as well as it should have. I mean, it's just a different time. This this time is not for that kind of film as much anymore, unfortunately, but I think you're right TV is the place for genres like that. And I think writers in general, understanding these tropes. That's why I think your book is so valuable, is because you like you just don't analyze you generally not you, but like, writers don't go into a genre and start analyzing the bad stuff, the tropes, the the cliches, you don't do that. But you have this like little guy that can kind of go in there. By the way, guys, I make no money by promoting this. I just think it's a cool idea. Because I'm like, Oh, this is this is kind of spying the way you did it with the infographic kind of ways even even so much cooler, because you're just like I looked at, I was looking at I was like, that's that's just kind of cool. The way you laid it all out.

Chris Vander Kaay 17:40
Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that know what one of our goals was, there are filmmakers who do what you're talking about, which is that they work in film and television. Ryan Johnson is the first one I think of but then J Michael Straczynski, and, and I can't think of his name who created Buffy the Vampire Slayer,

Alex Ferrari 17:56
just just me and Justin. Yeah,

Chris Vander Kaay 17:57
they both studied very strongly the genres that they worked in specifically, so they could figure out how do I create something that seems like it's heading in the direction I would expect, so that when I do something completely different, it totally catches you off guard. So in a way, they were very smart, because instead of just trying to do something different, they knew what was already expected and sort of headed in that direction so that when they finally do take that surprise left hand turn, it's that much more powerful. Because you'd already been roped into thinking you were going down a specific path. Brian Johnson doesn't knives out.

Alex Ferrari 18:29
Right, exactly. And the which was so great. I love knives out. But let's analyze Buffy for a second which you know, I love I saw Buffy in the theater. I'm a little older. So I remember seeing Buffy when it came out with Luke Perry and Christie Christie, Christie Swanson. And then when it really took off when he had control complete creative control with the show, but he I saw many interviews with him about that genre, which is like oh, the Vampire Slayer is usually then Hellsing it's usually some big muscular dude fighting Dracula or fighting you know these big things. And he's like, what if it's the victim that usually they're say being saved from how about the victim is the Slayer, which is an is a and they made it somewhere ridiculous calling her Buffy the Vampire Slayer which, in general is just a weird, wonderful name. And then it just created this whole this whole world and he did keep turned it on its head. And I think good. Good creative writers can turn a whole genre on its head. I mean, Tarantino's made a career out of that. And Josh as well,

Chris Vander Kaay 19:35
well, and Josh Sweden and Drew Goddard teamed up to do it again, with the cabin in the woods. That is a fantastic example of a way that you take not just invert the tropes, but actually use the tropes as the central premise of the film in sort of a meta way, like really pointing out that they're there to the degree that actually in the movie, a lot of those characters don't fall into the tropes, but they're actually being forced into them by external circumstances. So that's a really clever way of pointing out the problem with these tropes and these cliches these things we come to expect. So two,

Alex Ferrari 20:06
so two, two examples I can think of right in the horror genre that I think one of the first guys to do it was Hitchcock with psycho. He completely took that genre of film and completely changed the killing office. Sorry, spoiler alert, guys.

Chris Vander Kaay 20:22
So I think we should be saved by that. I

Alex Ferrari 20:23
mean, if it's, it's 70 years, what is it? 60 7060 years. 60 years ago, guys, if you haven't seen it's not on me by killing off your main, your main movie star within the first 20 minutes. And then your audiences like who? Who's? Who do I follow? Who's the protagonist? That was great. And then Wes Craven did it again, and scream, which was an homage to what Hitchcock did with Drew Barrymore. I mean, and Wes did it with Drew Barrymore. Again, so the audience had no idea and that was another scream completely flipped all the horror tropes upside down.

Chris Vander Kaay 20:55
Yeah, well, because that was the first time that people in a horror movie had ever seen a horror movie. And in a way, they were armed with the weapons that they needed to survive. And that's sort of the humor of the film is in watching. Some of them figure it out, and some of them not.

Alex Ferrari 21:08
And the ones who didn't obviously ended up where they end up, dead.

Chris Vander Kaay 21:11
What it's funny, you mentioned Tarantino a couple of minutes ago, in the way that he reinvents genres. And I think it's interesting, you can draw a direct parallel between the original Psycho and from dusk till dawn because they both do the same thing, which is they start as a crime film, and then they become a horror film at the halfway point. Yeah, it's a crime film about her stealing money. And is she going to get away with it? Until he kills her? And then from dusk till dawn, it's are these guys gonna rob the bank and get to Mexico safely. And then at the halfway point, it becomes a vampire film,

Alex Ferrari 21:38
right? So I want I want to talk to you about this, because this is this is a pet peeve of mine. I'm a huge Robert Rodriguez fan. I'm a huge Tarantino fan. I completely understand what you're saying. I feel that psycho did it. Right. And I don't know why he did it. Right. Why that worked? Or I feel that from dusk till dawn did not work in many ways. And Robert and twitten both are they've come out said you know, like, we made two movies. There was not even a sense of vampire anywhere, anywhere in the world of the of the heist film. So when it came out, it literally comes out of left field it literally it just comes light and I knew what we were all knew what was going to happen. But a lot of people were like this just felt it felt weird. We're in psycho. It doesn't feel weird, maybe because it kind of fit. I mean, everyone knew was called psycho. So there was going to be someone who died. So I guess people were kind of waiting for something to happen. It was shocking the way he did it. But from dusk till dawn. I don't I don't know. And I don't know if you're the first to ever hear this an animal analysis of from dusk till dawn. But I when I was watching it, which I'm a fan of the movie, I do like the movie, but it literally just felt like it came out of left field and a lot of people were turned off by it.

Chris Vander Kaay 22:48
Yeah, for sure. I wasn't I enjoy. I mean, I'm one of those people that I would rather a big swing and a miss in a film. That's an interesting try. Yes, then a success at doing okay, so when a movie even if a movie is not super successful at something, if they tried it, I'm happy that they tried something wild and different. I do think one thing that might be the difference between Psycho and from dusk till dawn. And I think because you and I are similar ages that the difference is that there was a psychic awareness in the world about psycho by the time we even became aware of it. Whereas from dusk till dawn was birthed within our lifetime. Right. Right. So I do think that there is to some degree, a level of us whether we're doing it consciously or not recognizing that generations have already accepted this as the thing that it is right. Whereas from dusk till dawn, we were the ones that are actually making that decision, you know, when it was happening in the moment. So I actually think I would have been more excited. Had there been no mention of vampires in the in the trailers, in the same way that there was no mention of the murder in psycho show that I did go in thinking that it was a Quentin Tarantino crime drama, and then have the rug pulled out from under me. The thing that I thought was kind of sad was that you did know it was coming? Yeah, I would agree with that. I probably would have upset more people.

Alex Ferrari 24:03
But no, I would. I would agree with that. And I always find it fascinating because that was the time right after that was such a very unique time in history, because Robert had just finished this Desperado, which was a big hit. And Pulp Fiction had just came out. So basically, the studio said, Hey, guys, what do you want to do? And turn to us like we're not going to get a chance to do this again, let's just do from dusk till dawn and they just had carte blanche to do whatever the hell they wanted. And and you could kind of tell like the first part of the movie is more Tarantino on the second part of the movie is more Rodriguez.

Chris Vander Kaay 24:33
Yeah, for sure. Well, and I it's funny, you said they have carte blanche, which I think is mostly true. But the one thing they didn't have control over is actually the marketing, which is I believe Tarantino even said that when he originally when they came up with the idea, he wanted to only market the first half of the film. He did want it to be a surprise. But I think in the day especially, you know nowadays, maybe you could do a stunt like that. But in the mid 90s You're spending a lot of money to put a film out in theaters. It's risky and These guys have been big hits, but within the indie industry, you know, they're gonna try and mark it the old fashioned way, you know, they're going to tell you everything that there is to know about this film. And so I would be curious to know, you know, what the thought experiment would be of how the film would have been received if everybody went in not knowing that it became a supernatural horror film at the halfway point.

Alex Ferrari 25:18
And to be fair, I mean, it did spawned two sequels and a show on El Rey so it's done. Okay. I mean, it's, that's not that it's not done. Well. It's done. Okay. Without without any questions. So, I wanted to kind of go over some of the tropes of certain genres, I saw the list of, of genres and I want to hear some of these in there and they're not the usual ones, but the first one obviously, is the slasher film. So the slasher film which was birthed in the in the late 70s, because when Halloween is the is the is the birth of the slasher film, right? Well, there's,

Chris Vander Kaay 25:51
you know, depending psycho, psycho age, you want to get into a psycho, you could say, beta blood by Baba.

Alex Ferrari 25:58
I mean, you've exchanged a lot of

Chris Vander Kaay 26:00
text. And I think the big dispute is that actually, people think Black Christmas is really the birthplace more than Halloween because it came out, was it a year or two earlier? Yeah. And it has the point of view killings and the, you know, the girls in the house. And so while Halloween gets the credit, because it is a world class film, and it is like unbelievably good at creating tension. There were a few films that were sort of proto slashers around before that one really sort of coined the phrase.

Alex Ferrari 26:24
Real quick. On a side note, this is some useless trivia. Did you know that John Carpenter was going to USC or had just graduated from USC film school at the time, and used some of us er C's film equipment to make Halloween? Then USC sued John Carpenter for that, because it was a huge hit. They wanted money. And John Carpenter never forgave them for that. That was because you know, can you imagine like a student all of a sudden, it was a monster hit. I mean, it was. It was a monster hit. But that's just a little, little ridiculous, useless trivia?

Chris Vander Kaay 27:01
Yeah. I mean, it doesn't surprise me because he made him a dark star at school. So obviously, you still had the connections. But yeah, I mean, Halloween, I think was the biggest independent film until was it either clerks or Blair Witch came along? I mean, so for years,

Alex Ferrari 27:14
I would I would say, I actually know that the answer to that it was the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles released in 1989, which made 120 million domestically for a eight $9 million budget at that point. And it was in 19. Whatever. 91

Chris Vander Kaay 27:29
It can't hurt it. That's a good that's a good long run. 12 year run that it was the most successful independent release. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 27:35
yeah. Without question. Now. So what are some of the tropes of the slasher film? So you know, so we can kind of go into it?

Chris Vander Kaay 27:41
Oh, for sure. I mean, obviously, the one of the biggest ones is that there almost always is an opening set piece that not only that, we see characters die, so that we know what the stakes are. But also usually we're seeing some sort of origin of the slasher. Oftentimes, it'll be something that happened in the slasher, his childhood, or some person that was connected to the character that will eventually be revealed as the slasher, so that later in the story, we get the big reveal of, oh, it's the sister of or the child of or their mother or the mother of Exactly, yeah, yeah. So that's a big piece, right? The opening set piece, there's the one we always laugh about, which is that there's always a scene where somebody is playing strip poker or skinny dipping or some other way in which you can make only the female cast member take off their clothes and the the guy maybe gets naked, but it's always hidden by strategic shrubbery, right? And then, and there's a few of them, you know, there's the cat in the closet, right? That mean that how many times has that been done that the noise that someone hears and goes to investigate by themselves? The funny thing is, we only had room for six tropes per act. Oh, wait. There's so many tropes, and especially in slasher film we could have filled, we could have filled the whole book with the tropes of the slasher film, but we ended up with about 18 Plus our splash page. And then, of course, at the end, the fake the fake out death.

Alex Ferrari 28:59
That's a big one. Right? Oh, when they come back to life. Yeah. When they get back? Yeah.

Chris Vander Kaay 29:03
Yeah, in Halloween, it was she sat down on the floor with her back to him. And he sat up slowly. And, you know, or, you know, Jason jumping through the window after we think he's already expired or coming up out of the lake or whatever, you know, whatever that final jolt moment is, which all of them are really sort of playing off of, well, Halloween, and then Friday, the 13th was sort of ripping off the end of carry. And so that's kind of where that tradition comes from.

Alex Ferrari 29:25
Yeah, when Karis hand comes out of the grave, back, yeah, that was 76 If I'm not mistaken, so yeah, that was yeah, that was that was another one. I'm sorry. Let's do another one. This one. I'm actually curious about the creepy kid movie. Yeah, that's not as John that's not a genre that's been abused as much.

Chris Vander Kaay 29:44
No, not so much. It's interesting because a lot of these genres are cyclical, right? They'll be super popular for a short time and then they'll vanish and it'll be gone for a while and then something resuscitates them I mean, we were just talking about knives out when was the last time we saw like a big budget of star studded Murder Mystery, you know, like one of those men are home stories like clue. It had been years. And then this one comes out. And I think the same thing is true of the creepy kid movie because they were big in like the 50s in the 60s. And I think a lot of that had to do with sort of the symbolic struggle of the breaking of the home, right, because of the the war effort. And then father's coming home damaged. And then, you know, a divorce becoming a thing in American culture. And so I think a lot of that was speaking to that.

Alex Ferrari 30:26
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Chris Vander Kaay 30:37
But then they did start to pop up again in the 80s and 90s. You know, films like the good son and things like that. And then I do think we had a couple years back, there was a short time where we're getting a chunk of them again, we got an orphan, which was pretty fun. And then I think Vera Farmiga was in that and I think she was in one other one too, maybe with Sam Rockwell where they were parents.

Alex Ferrari 30:56
Oh, God, what was that movie?

Chris Vander Kaay 30:58
Joshua, I think, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but every once in a while, you'll just get like a sort of a small batch of them sort of popping back up, but for whatever weird reason that that's the way that the systems work, you know, we're, we're cyclical, and then suddenly, this thing sort of organically just resurfaces. And that's

Alex Ferrari 31:15
another that's a genre that isn't, like I said, is not a genre we see very often so that is something that could make your story as a screenwriter pop out a little because if you make a slasher film, you know, there's a million of those, and, um, they're not as popular anymore. slasher films are not as popular anymore unless you make a self aware ad slasher style film, which is something that be a lot of filmmakers do another that pay homage to the 80s slasher films. But the creepy kids genre is not. It's not done very often. So if everyone listening out there, if you're making a horror movie, a creepy kid, you know, a creepy kid ghost story would probably not be a bad thing to do.

Chris Vander Kaay 31:55
Yeah, for sure. And one of the things that's good about the creepy kid genre is that it just has sort of built in creepiness. Because if you catch the right child, oh, a lot of your work is done for you. You know, yeah, well, like

Alex Ferrari 32:05
six cents, which was like a twist on the creepy kid movie. Because he Yeah, he wasn't the bad guy. But he was still kind of creepy. Yeah, for sure.

Chris Vander Kaay 32:13
Yeah. You go back and forth for the first act of that movie about what's what's his kids deal?

Alex Ferrari 32:17
Okay, exactly. So what are some of the tropes of that of that genre

Chris Vander Kaay 32:20
up so one of the one of the big tropes that comes up is oftentimes it's a childless couple, right is going to be part of the center, because they're going to be bringing a child into their life, right? Either we beat them before they'd had their own kid, and then they have a kid, Allah, Rosemary's Baby, or like, or I guess the Omen, too. But then you have other movies where you're adopting a child, right? You're bringing a child that didn't, that does not your child, and you're adopting them, bringing them into your life, and then realizing that because you didn't raise them, there are secrets that this child has, that you didn't know about. But it's almost always that there's some sort of secret about your child, right? In Rosemary's Baby is that it was the son of Satan in the Omen, same deal. But in in orphan actually, I don't want to spoil orphan. So I won't say what the twist is in that one, because it's pretty fun. But it's almost always there's some sort of secret Revelation, we don't know. And when we find that out, you know, it hits the fan. It's either that or the other cliche sometimes is that one of the parents seems to know that something is going on with their kid, but nobody else believes them, because it's just an innocent little child. Right? And so there's that element of like, oh, you know, Susan couldn't possibly be doing that. There might be something wrong with you, dear. Right. And almost always, it's the mom, right? Because we're gaslighting the mother for having any question about being a loving mother. You know, that's where that sort of 5060s ideal comes in.

Alex Ferrari 33:34
And there was that movie that came out a few years ago, which was the combination of the creepy kid superhero genre. What was the name of that one?

Chris Vander Kaay 33:42
Yeah. brightburn Bright burn. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 33:44
that was like when I saw the trailer, I was like, that's a pretty good matchup.

Chris Vander Kaay 33:48
Yeah, for sure. I mean, if What if Superman was a sociopath, but what would happen to him as a kid as a kid?

Alex Ferrari 33:53
Yeah, it's like that. That's insane. Yeah, and then, and we'll talk a little bit about that. Because I think one of the ways that you can create new twists on these these older genres is to combine them, you know, like to combine like, obviously, scream, added a level high level of comedy and self awareness, to a horror film, essentially. And it is a fairly bloody, brutal horror film. But there's a lot of laughs in that movie,

Chris Vander Kaay 34:20
for sure. Yeah, I mean, I feel like oftentimes horror is the genre, with the most experimentation gets done. And then it just sort of filters out eventually into other arenas. And I think it's because you're allowed to get away with a lot more in horror. But definitely, I mean, one of the things we've always talked about, I've been a screenwriting professor for a few years, and even before that, when I was just a writer, I would always talk to people about the idea of the power of crossing genre means you had expectations but now that you've joined those expectations with an arena that has other expectations, you've now created a circumstance where your audience doesn't know which set of expectations to look for and that's powerful because it means now you have the element of surprise back In a way that you didn't view, we're just working in the one,

Alex Ferrari 35:02
right? So it's like the comedy, The comedy buddy cop movie versus the a little bit more serious buddy cop movie with some comedic elements. So like Lethal Weapon, arguably has some funny scenes in it. But it's pretty dark. I mean, you meet Martin Riggs, and he's got a gun to his mouth. I mean, it's, it's a it's a fairly dark film. But then you got 48 hours, which is a straight up comedy with action elements in it. With that.

Chris Vander Kaay 35:26
Yeah. And I think the genre obviously goes, it's flexible. Most genres tend to be kind of flexible about what you can. And so you'll have ones that go to the more dramatic and the more serious or the more action oriented, the more comedic. And I think that's one of the great things about genre is the elasticity. Like how far can you take the framework of this one kind of thing that we've already codified? How far can you stretch that before it snaps? You know, before it becomes another thing, like I used to joke about the problem with drama is it's the most recessive genre, right? You put enough jokes in a drama, it's a Comedy, Drama goes away, right? You put a time machine in a drama becomes a science fiction, film drama goes away. So this is this running joke that like dramas, the least interesting genre to work in, because it's so easy to turn it into something else by just adding one thing, you know,

Alex Ferrari 36:11
right. So yeah, I mean, Back to the Future is a sci fi i It's funny, I wouldn't call it a comedy. But it is funny. And it's heartfelt. And there's, there's a, there's drama in it. And but it's a it's a sci fi film is the site. Well, how would you jump into that? Well,

Chris Vander Kaay 36:29
for sure, it's science fiction. But if I had to stick it in another genre, I would say at the coming of age comedy, for sure. And it's it's almost sort of 5050 Because there's a storyline with him and Doc Brown, that's almost all science fiction. And there's a storyline with him and his dad and his mom, which is almost an all coming of age story, you know, obviously with the thread of the the time problem within it. But that's one of the things I loved about it. And it was the 80s was really where the idea of cross genre or cross pollination of genres kind of came in. Because you have all these film students who were coming out having studied genre for the first time, it's like the 60s and 70s and 80s. These filmmakers were going to film school for the first time. So they're the only ones that ever had the conversation about what genres are, what what elements codify them, right? The generation before them was the ones that were actually inventing them, right? Your John Ford's, they were building genres. They weren't defining them. They were just making them. And then after,

Alex Ferrari 37:21
and then also this, the film school generation didn't really cross genres too much Spielberg, Lucas. I mean, I mean, look, it's it was sci fi, sci fi action adventure. And Indiana Jones was kind of like that serial adventure. But like, you know, taxi driver, pretty straightforward Raging Bull. Pretty straightforward, right? Godfather pretty straightforward. You know, they weren't as cross genre ring. They weren't combining genres, much in the 70s. I agree with you in the 80s.

Chris Vander Kaay 37:45
They debts. Spielberg is interesting, because he kind of has a foot in the 70s in the 80s, right? Most of the other guys you mentioned were late 70s, right? You're Coppola's and your Scorsese. And those guys are more sort of traditional in the shape that they put their story in, where Spielberg while he came up in the same era and did some stuff early on, that maybe falls directly into genres. I think, you know, JAWS and duel are pretty clear what those are, but close

Alex Ferrari 38:09
encounters close at but at his upcoming coming of age. Exactly.

Chris Vander Kaay 38:14
Yeah. And for sure. And I think it was it was Spielberg's influence both as a as a director but mainly as a producer, working with guys like Robert Zemeckis, Joe, Dante, big in a big way. has a huge love for film, but also understands the ways to play in different sandboxes I mean, Gremlins is a perfect example. It's a horror film. It's a Christmas film. It's a coming of age film. It's a comedy, right? Yeah, it covers a lot of ground

Alex Ferrari 38:39
Goonies. Yeah, I mean, Goonies is an adventure coming of age comedy, as well, if you just don't, I'm trying to think of films in today's world that kind of does that. I mean, they're not a lot of our there. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but like, it's from the studio system. Everything's so homogenized right now. And it's all based on IP, and they pretty much staying strict to, you know, I mean, Avengers and Marvel movies have just, they're basically action comedies, with adventure comedies, with some dramatic elements drizzled on top.

Chris Vander Kaay 39:11
Yeah, I think all of the adventurous stuff that's being done it sort of the nebulous edges of genres are mostly being done in the independent arena. Horror used to be the independent arena. It has, you know, since the late 80s, I would say become more respectable and become more of a studio thing. But horror has always been sort of toying around with that stuff recently. other genres, like especially the I guess you'd call it, the indie drama world, or the indie world has sort of taken on that mantle now, because when you're spending at least $150 million on a movie, you're not allowed to experiment the people paying for it won't let you, you know, and the mid budget movie is gone. So it's only small budget movies that can have the risk of doing something daring anymore,

Alex Ferrari 39:52
right in the days of the 18 to $20 million. Goonies is gone.

Chris Vander Kaay 39:58
Yeah, it's unfortunate because It's now the $80 million Goonies is now a $40 million season of Stranger Things on television. It's like movie at all.

Alex Ferrari 40:06
Right? And that's where you can make the more money. I mean, in all honesty, you'll make more money on that and that button business model than you will and more creative freedom than you Oh, for sure. We're just shifted

Chris Vander Kaay 40:17
now. Yeah, that there's more there's more creative freedom in television storytelling than there is in theatrical storytelling to a degree.

Alex Ferrari 40:23
Now, the Christmas film, we were Christmas film has a lot of tropes in it. And I love to talk about because it's a genre I've seen grow exponentially in the in the last four or five years, or I'm seeing because Hallmark and was a Hallmark and lifetime have their, you know, they just they just spitting these things out all day and on Netflix as well. It's putting these things out well, perfect example was the Gremlins, which is I forget that is a Christmas movie, arguably, arguably diehard is the greatest Christmas movie of all time. And we can have that conversation. I did a whole episode on that. But we could talk about that later. But the book The Christmas film is, is a genre that there's there being made more and more because there is so much more need for all the streaming services to have Christmas films. So what are some of the tropes of a Christmas?

Chris Vander Kaay 41:12
I think the strongest central trope of any Christmas film is the massive conflict that's going to ruin the holiday. Whatever shape it comes in. That's always the element, right? You never get a movie where it's like, where it's a straightforward drama where you like it'll say, romantic comedy. I know there's romance in the Christmas films on Hallmark. But there's almost always some enormous hook in the center of it. That's going to ruin someone's Christmas, right? It's funny because almost all Christmas movies are actually about how someone's Christmas is going to be ruined. And it's kind of funny because the the goal of the movie then is to just solve how do we not ruin Christmas and almost every single one whether it's the Gremlins are ruining Christmas, or Tim Allen accidentally murdered Santa Claus on his roof during Christmas, you know, there's always some element where the the holiday itself is at risk. And we have to save it in some way. Whether it's on a small scale the family, right, everybody's coming together, like in home alone. It's home alone, right? Yeah. Or whether it's on a cosmic scale like Santa the Santa Claus with an Allen there's always some existential threat to the idea of the holiday of Christmas. And I think it's it's funny that no matter what genre you put it in, whether it's a romantic comedy, whether it's supernatural, like Santa Claus, or Krampus, or you know, any of them, they all seem to fall existentially into that same thing, which is like save Christmas, it's gonna die if this thing happens, you know?

Alex Ferrari 42:30
And I always I always, I always joke, but it's not. It's not too far off. If you've got a dog saving Christmas, it's pre sold. Me. It's not. It's it's that if you got a dog saving Christmas, or better yet, all the litter saving Christmas like there's puppies involved? Oh, yeah, it just it's presold.

Chris Vander Kaay 42:47
Even better if you want to have a kid from a family whose parents are about to divorce runs away to save a dog. And then the parents have to get back together in order to save the kid not dog.

Alex Ferrari 42:57
Stop it'll stop it stop it. We're just spitting out gold here all day guys. This isn't this is these are free to take them and do with them as you wish. And one others honor I wanted to talk about which is a newer genre. The young adult dystopian romance, which is it is a 2000 Beyond 2000s genre. I don't remember seeing my I've seen dystopian before, but the young adult dystopian is something of the 2000s Am I wrong?

Chris Vander Kaay 43:29
I think in film, it is of the 2000s it was I mean, if you can go back to the I think the giver is probably the most famous example is a film that was wrapped up in you know, production staff was for 25 years before Jeff Bridges finally got it made. But that was a book that came out before the millennium. So I think yeah, it came about in why a fiction first, you know, young adult fiction, and then became a genre because they started adapting the books. Interestingly, we sort of oh, why a dystopian romance in some way to Harry Potter because Harry Potter was a why a series that became so successful that everybody just wanted to adapt the next popular why a series because if you can find a franchise and the first one does good money, you're set for a few years at least you know, and that's when they started rolling in right we got our hunger games and we got our turn remember the one about the divergent divergent

Alex Ferrari 44:14
Yeah, that died the die that that the last one they didn't even release? Yeah, the Maze

Chris Vander Kaay 44:19
Runner right? Yeah, people were finding and what happens is and you the industry will sort of write which books it wants, right? Because somebody immediately tried to make one that was much closer to Harry Potter, which was the was the one about the gods.

Alex Ferrari 44:35
Oh, yeah. Percy, Percy, Percy, Percy Jackson Verstegen, I actually enjoy the Percy Jackson

Chris Vander Kaay 44:41
and and there was two of them and they did fairly well but in the scheme of things the YA dystopian romance you know like the the self sufficient girl who has to choose between one of two guys right that sexy punk rocker or the you know the straight laced whoever that really connected with broader audiences and also the the big hook about the world, the crazy world that they live in, those really seem to connect with audiences. And so that became a thing. Obviously, I listed the three that I just mentioned. But then there were ones that popped up on TV as well. There were TV series that were clearly influenced by it and you'd find on places like ABC Family. And so yeah, it became, it became its own sub genre to the degree that it definitely felt like it belonged in the book.

Alex Ferrari 45:20
Yeah, it is a it is an interesting genre. I mean, Twilight, let's not even get into that. That debacle. I'm sorry. Everybody out there. I'm sorry. I saw Twilight and I mean, you don't introduce the villain to the last 20 minutes. I'm sorry. You've lost me. It's just very upsetting. You're staying quiet. Do you agree? Do you disagree?

Chris Vander Kaay 45:39
No. I always I always say that there there's an audience for every movie Fair enough. Just because I'm not it. So to be clear, I'm not but

Alex Ferrari 45:49
you know your closet in your closet a Twilight fan let's just admitted here on the show. Now,

Chris Vander Kaay 45:53
I'm not gonna lie. I've seen all the movies but to be fair, the reason I watched them is because as a screenwriter, you have to know what everybody else around you is watching for sure. That's the reason I watched one of them because because the my one of my favorite directors of all time, David Slade, directed one. Oh, yes. Great director. Yeah, he's fantastic. I couldn't believe he directed the Twilight Zone. But turns out he's the smart one because he laughed all the way to the bank. And he has a fantastic career now. So

Alex Ferrari 46:18
yeah, he did. Okay. It okay. And I think the genius of Harry Potter, obviously, among many things, it's generational. You start with the character when he's when he's what at first grade, essentially. And then you take them all the way through high school or the equivalent of So, I mean, that was just a money making money printing machine.

Chris Vander Kaay 46:36
Yeah, I Well, in the film smartly learned to mature along with the viewers, right, because the first ones were much more sort of, I don't wanna say cartoonish, but

Alex Ferrari 46:45
Goonies more, more, more Guney asked like they're going on an adventure. And it's more innocent, like when you get the prisoner Aska ban for just gets dark.

Chris Vander Kaay 46:54
Well, I mean, the smartest thing they ever did was to hire quadros, to take them from childhood to adolescence, because he understood how to sort of muddy the waters of the world and make it feel even though it's fantastical, it still feels there's some sort of realism to the way that he photographed it, you know, so it starts to become higher stakes. And then in the fourth one, a character actually dies. And we have to see the ramifications of that. And so the film sort of matures, the franchise matures in the way that the people reading them would be maturing or watching them.

Alex Ferrari 47:20
And fun fact, the guy who dies in the Goblet of Fire is now our new Batman. Yep.

Chris Vander Kaay 47:25
He died in Goblet of Fire and then he went to be an immortal shiny vampire.

Alex Ferrari 47:30
But to be fair, and I'm gonna get on to this too much, I think. I don't know. He's a fantastic actor. He's actually got a bum rap because of the Twilight films, but he's actually a really, it'd be interesting. I'm interested to see where this goes. Every time they've ever cast a Batman or a joker. They always crap all over it. And people all the fanboys come out and just like this is horrible. And then yeah,

Chris Vander Kaay 47:49
that is how fandom works, right? People get mad about stuff. It seems like a weird, you know, a weird moniker but it did come from the word fanatic. So I guess it does make sense to a degree

Alex Ferrari 47:59
I mean, I mean, you and I are both have similar vintages. So you remember when Michael Keaton was cast? I mean,

Chris Vander Kaay 48:04
oh my Yeah, the comedy guy from Beetlejuice. Really, Mr.

Alex Ferrari 48:07
Mom, Mr. Mom is gonna be Batman. And now they're talking about bringing them back to play the old like, like an older Dark Knight kind of Batman?

Chris Vander Kaay 48:17
Wouldn't that be amazing? Fingers crossed? I want to Batman Beyond for sure. Oh,

Alex Ferrari 48:21
that would be amazing. Alright, so I'm gonna ask you a few questions ask all of my guests are? What advice would you give a screenwriter wanting to break into the business today?

Chris Vander Kaay 48:29
Um, I would say a, you're lucky that you decided to be a screenwriter instead of any other job, because it's the only one you can do from almost anywhere. So good choice on that,

Alex Ferrari 48:38
and essentially free and essentially, almost free to do it doesn't cost?

Chris Vander Kaay 48:43
Oh, for sure. It's one of the only ones that doesn't have any overhead for you to have to do your supply your trade? You know, if you became a drummer instead of a guitarist, that would be a bad idea for investment purposes. I think writers are the same way. But my advice would be well buy this book. But um, no. My real advice would be you have to you a you have to watch a lot of stuff. But you have to you have to actively watch is it's the thing that most people don't do when they watch something. They watch something and they're entertained by it. And then they emulate the things that they like or, but they don't, they don't dig further into what it is that they like to understand what that thing did in order to be effective, that made you like it. You have to be able to watch actively. And that's one of the reasons why even though I don't tell people to go to film school, I don't tell people necessarily to take screenwriting courses. I do. Tell them read books that can teach you how to do what I'm talking about. And it could be in any way you can learn how to do analysis, from reading books about literature and things like that. But learning how to do analysis of a film is super important for writers. Because you have to you have to be able to create a thing that will capture the spirit of a movie in the heads of every single person who wants to make the movie but hasn't made it yet. And that is a very difficult task. So you have to understand how to be able to push all the buttons in someone's brain, so that they get a sense of the movie in their head, and it's excites them enough that they want to go and make it. So learning how to do the deep dive on a film, watch something, enjoy it the first time, but when you watch it the second the third time, watch it with an eye towards how is this film doing what it does not just I like this film. And that's not always a tough thing to do to separate yourself like that.

Alex Ferrari 50:20
Wouldn't you agree, though, that it is tougher than ever to be a writer in the sense that we as an audience are so much more savvy, so much more educated in what story is like things that I saw in the 80s You know, when Bloodsport came out Bloodsport was the greatest action film ever made for my time and my age. But now, you know, there's you got another 30 years of just story story story. Now kids coming up are literally got every film ever made every TV show ever made on at the tip of their fingers. So as a writer, you've got to be so much better and so much sharper, to tell a compelling story that people will not just go, Oh, I've seen this 1000 times,

Chris Vander Kaay 51:03
for sure. But I will also say that all of those, say when we're talking about the movie from the 80s, right, we're talking about an action film, everybody watching, it wasn't exposed to the entirety of the action canon that we've seen. But neither were the people writing it. Right. Right. So the idea is that writers have the same responsibility now that they did then, which is to know what's already happened, and how you can move it further down, right, but how you can take it to the next step. The thing I love about Ryan Johnson is that he's really good at that he understands where he doesn't just write stories, he understands where the framework for the story and the understanding of the story exists in society now, so that he can use that to further what it is that he's getting out with his story. I mean, they were doing the same thing with the the film, the I guess you'd call them the what the film Brad's right from the 80s of Spielberg, and all of them, they were making their own marches to 50s films in the 80s. Right. That's what Star Wars is. That's what Indiana Jones is. But they were they were taking that and then they were turning it into something that would come out from the 80s. And you just you have to be able to do the same thing now at Yes, it's more work, certainly. But in a way, I think in some, in some ways, it feels more rewarding. Because when you think about oh, no one knew anything in the 80s going into a movie, right? So I can impress them pretty easily. You can impress them now. It means you're pretty good.

Alex Ferrari 52:18
Yeah, yeah. I mean, exactly. If you're, if you're really good now you would have killed in the 80s.

Chris Vander Kaay 52:26
You would have been so ahead of your time that no one got you. I mean, if that happened to John Carpenter more times than I can count, everybody thinks that the thing is a classic now it bombed when it came was horrible.

Alex Ferrari 52:35
Yeah, it's, it's a delicate balance.

Chris Vander Kaay 52:37
Right?

Alex Ferrari 52:38
And yeah, exactly. You don't want to be too ahead of your time.

Chris Vander Kaay 52:41
Yeah. Doesn't do him any good. Now that clap that it's a classic, because he still didn't make any money off of it, you know?

Alex Ferrari 52:47
But he's not bitter at all. He's not bitter at all. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life,

Chris Vander Kaay 52:56
um, the tear is gonna sound crazy for a writer, don't be taken in by the tyranny of story. And I've watched this happen in the in the fan community, which is the demand that everything in a story be answered. It's the death of storytelling in some ways. They're not to be able to be question marks at the end of a story. Everybody wants everything answered. And that in some ways kills the interest that you could, like, the best example I can use is, the best way to explain it is to say, when something isn't answered in a film, it doesn't mean it's unanswerable. It just means it wasn't answered. Right. And that sense of mystery needs to exist to some degree for people to want to revisit something, if I can watch a movie. And then by the end, everything has been handed to me in a neat package, and there's nothing for me to pour over. Why would I bother revisiting that? And the thing that that made me realize that was actually sort of watching the career of David Lynch. And as it sort of culminated in Twin Peaks, the return that show so brilliantly, gave people answers that only revealed more questions that they thought they wanted. answers to, yeah. And and what was powerful about that is he did answer questions that he started asking in the late 80s, with the TV series, but more importantly, he had a conversation, he gave you an emotional experience. And he asked you a few more questions. And at the end of the day, that is what art should be doing. Right? So don't feel so paralyzed by the need to answer every question about your story, that you lose the emotional impact that's going to make it powerful. And that sense of mystery or ambiguity that allows that thing to keep its life and vitality past the point that someone's even seen it once.

Alex Ferrari 54:32
Yeah, I when you said unanswered questions, I just the first thing that popped in my head was inception. You know, then the the that the ending you just like waiting in waiting, and he cuts him like, Oh, my God, it was so good.

Chris Vander Kaay 54:45
Yeah, and in forever, even if people think they have theories about what the movie actually means, because of that ending image, it will always be discussed, right? If we've been given the answer, find that would have been satisfying in the moment maybe, but ultimately, would that have been the best decision For the life of the film past the first time that you've ever seen it, and when the next generation of film gets to filmmakers gets to watch it, or critics get to write about it, you know, that's where it's fun is where there are holes left for us to participate in that.

Alex Ferrari 55:14
And, and Kubrick was pretty much the master of that, for sure. And every single one of his

Chris Vander Kaay 55:20
films in 2001 is in microcosm, you know, that's but almost every one of his films leaves that beautiful ambiguity in some way for you to be able to have to be in concert and in conversation with the movie.

Alex Ferrari 55:32
Yeah. And not to not to jump on on Kubrick, but like, every time his films are so in his stories, because he was the writer for most of those. He was either the CO writer or the writer, the screenplay, as well are adapted from a novel. They age, like all art does. So like good art will mean different things to you at different points in your life. So I still remember watching Eyes Wide Shut in 99. When they came out, and my friends came out, we can't I was a film geek and my friends, like, what do you think of like, I don't know, I don't understand it, but I probably will in 10 years. And, and then, you know, once I was married and had kids, and I watched it, I was like, oh, okay, I kind of get what you get. And then in about another 10 or 15 years, I'll watch it again and go. Okay, Stanley, now I get what you said. It's like great art. Does that great stories do that?

Chris Vander Kaay 56:22
Oh, for sure. I mean, I think 2001 doesn't really hit home for anybody until they've either had a massive loss in their life or they've had a child. The idea of the cycle of human life doesn't mean as much to you in its profundity in that film until you've witnessed one end or the other of it.

Alex Ferrari 56:36
Yeah, it's and we could I should do a whole episode on just Kubrick. I haven't never done that. I'm just such a maverick fan.

Chris Vander Kaay 56:42
Let me know because Steven Espinosa, my co writer would love to join you for that. It's his favorite film of filmmaker of

Alex Ferrari 56:47
all time. Oh, yeah. I mean, I I've gone deep down the rabbit hole on Kubrick more times than I care to admit. Now three of your favorite films of all time.

Chris Vander Kaay 56:57
Okay, so my three favorite films. It's funny, anytime somebody asked me to come on to do an appearance on a podcast, if they're discussing movies, they'll say what movies you want to talk about. And the first thing is the first three movies I asked him if they've covered because they're my three favorite movies are Magnolia by Paul Thomas Sanders. Sure. The documentary American movie grand. And this is the this is the one that always throws people a little bit. The other two are like okay, I get that there is a, a small Canadian horror film directed by Bruce McDonald called Pontypool from 2008. And that is my third favorite film. Many people have not seen it, those who have don't understand my love of it. But I think any great enterprising independent filmmaker who watches that movie will be deeply inspired because it is a film that cost I think, right around a million dollars, maybe it basically takes place inside of a radio station in a basement, in a tiny church in the middle of Canada. But it is one of the most beautifully shot films, it does so much with the budget that it has. And it's just endlessly clever. One of the things I always say as a writer, is ideas are the only thing that you can continuously produce for free in a film, everything else costs money. And that movie had great ideas, crazy ideas in spades. And that's one of the things I always point out, like, especially young filmmakers are trying to put a film together, they got almost no money to scrape together I say, Well, you know, the idea is where it's at, right? That's the thing that's free, find the thing that's going to get people talking, usually it's in the idea phase, that doesn't cost you anything.

Alex Ferrari 58:19
Now where can people find the book and and pick it up.

Chris Vander Kaay 58:23
So it will be available to like, it'll be shipped to you on March 24. It's already available for preorder. And you can either get it from the publishers website, Lawrence King, which in fact, if anybody wants to see what the book looks like, if you go to Lawrence King, I believe there's an entire genre available that you can flip through on the pages there. So you can see the style. I want to say it's the Western revenge film, I can't remember for sure, but I think that's the one. So you can go and you can get the tone, you know, and get a sense of whether you'd like it or not. But you can pick it up from the Lawrence King website and get it from amazon.com. And then once the actual street date hits, you'll also be able to get it at brick and mortar stores. If any of those still exist, you'll still be able to pick them up there.

Alex Ferrari 59:02
I appreciate it. Man. Thanks so much for coming on the show. It's been an absolute ball geeking out with you about genre, and about the different kinds of plots and tropes that we have to avoid. So thank you so much for being on the show, brother.

Chris Vander Kaay 59:14
Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me.

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