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IFH 535: Getting Your First Feature Off the Ground with Leroy Kincaide

Leroy Kincaide, Leroy Kincaide filmmaker, the Last Rite

Today on the show we have filmmaker Leroy Kincaide.

With over 15 years’ experience in the entertainment industry, both in front of and behind the camera, Leroy has featured on shows created by companies such as ITV, BBC, WWE and PARAMOUNT.

Before turning his creative hand to the film industry, Leroy was one of the UK’s top professional Wrestlers, holding a heavyweight championship and at the peak of his career had a televised match on WWE’s SMACKDOWN at the O2 arena.

It was around this point in his life, Leroy realised that he wanted to be the creator of his own destiny, so after what was looking to be a very promising future in the wrestling business, he found his true passion for the film industry, and decided to embark on becoming a film director.

Wanting to express his storytelling creativity, he founded Nocturnal Pictures in 2014 and has since written and directed several short films, music videos, and has successfully completed his debut feature film The Last Rite.

A medical student suffering from sleep paralysis finds herself plagued by a demonic entity, after moving in with her boyfriend.

With a distinctive style, dark vision and thought evoking take on story narrative, Leroy is currently building a slate of genre movies fitting for what his imagination can create in a dark cinematic universe.

Following the success of the world premiere of The Last Rite, Leroy was nominated for the Screen International “Genre Rising Star” Award for his debut feature film.

Enjoy my inspiring conversation with Leroy Kincaide.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:00
I'd like to welcome to the show Leroy Kincaide. How're you doing Leroy?

Leroy Kincaide 0:14
Hey, buddy. How's it going, mate you good?

Alex Ferrari 0:16
I'm good, man. I'm good. I noticed an accent. So you're definitely not from the States. Right Sir ?

Leroy Kincaide 0:21
Absolutely bloody not mate no from the UK from a little town called Maidstone in Kent. Oh, yeah, it's quite different from across the pond. But before we get going, Dude, I have to just say man, like big fan of the show. You got me through 2020 Not gonna lie. Every morning when I was making my breakfast. I was like, Yes, Alex Ferrari. Let's get that on. Yeah, dude, you're serving and protecting the, you know, the community of filmmakers that day. So

Alex Ferrari 0:31
I'm trying

Leroy Kincaide 0:34
Just keep doing what you're doing

Alex Ferrari 0:53
I truly, I truly appreciate that. Man. That means that means a lot. It means a lot. Man. I like I've said many times before, sometimes I just sit in front of this mic. And I don't know where this goes. It just goes out into the ether. And but people are listening. You know, it's hard. It's unlike a rockstar who could see the audience. I can't. So I don't know who's listening. So I love hearing stories like that. So a May 2020 was rough for everybody in 2021 Ain't that much easier? Yeah, we're still we're still definitely it's still not 2019. So take us back. Oh, 2015 Oh, the good old days. Yes. Gas wasn't seven, seven pounds a gallon like it is now. How much is gas over there? Now?

Leroy Kincaide 1:42
It's a lot. It's like, um, per liter. It's about one. So I've got diesel. It's like one pound 62. I think 160 falls there about

Alex Ferrari 1:56
That's a pound. So that's like to like 250. us something like that? Yeah, yeah, that's like super cheap. It's super cheap. By the way. That's super cheap. Like here? Oh, yeah. La, we got to around $6.50 per liter per nano per gallon. All you're doing leaders because you have the metric system because like the rest of the world, you have the metric system. We on the other hand, are still stuck on gallons. So okay, let's not get into a conversation of metric system. Let's move into filmmaking. So, you've got a hell of a story, man. was one of the reasons I wanted you on the show because you got a hell of a backstory. How did you get started in the entertainment business? And then how did that get into the film business?

Leroy Kincaide 2:42
So my, my background is very eclectic. Let's just say like, I've got a diverse space of repertoire of work. I started in the entertainment field. When I was 15. I was a professional wrestler, stuck to professional wrestling for quite a while. I'll wrestled probably up until the age of about maybe 30. And yeah, and then pretty much after that, I segwayed out of the game and just found a passion for acting and filmmaking. I had a great run while I was wrestler, had an awesome time I was in the process of potentially getting picked up by WWE had a match on SmackDown done all of that, but it just want to say it's like, you know, when you do something, you're too good to quit. But you don't love it. It was a bit like that.

Alex Ferrari 3:37
I feel it very much. So,

Leroy Kincaide 3:40
Dude, I love the industry for what it had. But I hated the business. I hated the business with a passion. Because it you know, it's like the film industry attracts a lot of interesting people. Some people can be predatory, some people not so predatory. Wrestling is no different. And it was that side of it. That for me just made it not so fun. You know, when you start realizing the magic trick is not really that magical. And you start looking beyond the veil of things, you start to realize that okay, you know, you're just a cog part of many other 100 different parts where when you grow up with the spectacle, what you see what you get different.

Alex Ferrari 4:22
Oh, no, I mean, I'm old school wrestling fan man back from the 80s like going to the WWF was kicking off and so I'm a huge I was a huge I saw the rock wrestle man. I saw Hogan wrestle. I mean, I was a big wrestling fan. From back in the day to man I was I watched WrestleMania one in New York when I lived in New York, so it was like going on in Madison Square Garden. I was living in Queens at the time, and I was watching Mr. T and Hogan. You know, taking that taking that Subway down. I saw the hole I still remember it so clearly. So I'm old era. Oh, yeah, dude, that's what that's when it was really created. That's when that's when a sports entertainer and started and that's the time when people didn't even talk about wrestling as being fake. Or not fake, but because it ain't fake, because trust me, I've seen wrestling it hurts. But yeah, pre predetermined outcomes and they're working as a team and all that kind of stuff. But back then you couldn't even say that it was like, No, it's a sport. Dude. The guy's wearing a turban, man. Come on. Like he's walking in wearing feathers. Like what? Come on. Seriously. You know, Coco, beware really? So do you throw it back? Oh, no. No, I can throw down I can throw down with my wrestling my wrestling trivia man back in the day. Oh, British Bulldogs. Dude, are you kidding? Man? Oh, yeah, dude, it was

Leroy Kincaide 5:40
Yeah, then back in the day. I mean, the rest of the the wrestling scene has obviously is, you know, some of the audience is changed a lot over the years. You know, the Attitude Era was the best era for me. Like that was where I was like, I want to live this sport and just dive right we're doing it like, I love it. Because you sacrifice your body so much in the industry, right? You come you come home and your back's aching. You've got like scratches all over your body and everything. And you don't do it for money you absolutely don't do for money because the industry unless you're at the top, you don't tend to get an awful lot of money. So I have a massive amount of respect toward the end guys out there throwing down on a nightly basis because you know, it's a lot on the body and a lot of broken marriages in that industry is you know, it's it's just Rachel Matic you know, I don't need to go into every detail but

Alex Ferrari 6:35
Yeah, it's the funny thing is that there's a lot of there's a lot of similarities between being an independent filmmaker and being an independent wrestler you know, because you know you are the product and and the different filmmakers trying to make the product but at the end of the day is trying to get seen trying to get noticed and there's a hell of a lot of abuse that comes along the way man you know you with wrestlers, it's physical, mental and so many other things that happen you know from every documentary I've ever seen especially going back to that go into that Jake the Snake documentary which was that connect that first time that you got to real behind the scenes of like oh my god like one of my heroes growing up is like living in a trailer park can't even like it's it really started to ring true like to this is the reality of what it is. And that's what I do on this show too with independent filmmakers like people lose their homes people's marriages break up if you're not smart about how you do it.

Leroy Kincaide 7:30
You've got it you've got to really like position yourself well to succeed I think the the biggest thing that happens in the industry is that people get caught up in the painkiller slash fast cars FAST Women in that scenario and right sure it's easy to burn out like that and unfortunately you know, if you're very heavily influenced by what people want to do, you'll end up just doing everything in anything and then before you know it you've got nothing because you mentioned Jake the Snake back in 2003 2004 was very fortunate I got an opportunity to meet Jake the Snake he come down to the wrestling school I was out and done like a seminar. And you know he's going through a rocky time at that time. But like

Alex Ferrari 8:14
This is pretty this is pretty this is pretty documentary. I was it oh three what it was it was that oh three? Oh, yeah. Very Oh, yeah. This is very before the documentary. Yeah.

Leroy Kincaide 8:25
Just before Yeah. So like, but what a wealth of knowledge man, like, you know, you see, you see as you say your stars like you know growing up and you see them as they end up and you're like, wow, what happened? And then you listen to their their genius ability to know how to communicate to an audience and cut promo like he was a king of promos, man. Like, he was the king of promos. And, yeah, it's just amazing to sort of see, you know, how far they can come and then how and how they can end up and it's a shame, you know, is a big shame. But, you know, the sport is the sport. And unfortunately, unfortunately, for some it's the way it is. So I think the key is about like playing with the cards the best way you can you tell?

Alex Ferrari 9:13
It's like the film business is the film business. And it is what it is and is the game the game changes monthly now, you know, everything's like what? When you start making a movie, the whole market is changed by the time you're finished making the movie. And that's something that we'll talk about yours because yours took a couple years, at least two or three years you said to to get going but you So you went from wrestling onto sets and working as an actor. You've been on many sets. What did you What is a nugget of a nugget, a golden nugget that you pulled out from? From being on all those sets that you brought into your directing and into your filmmaking career.

Leroy Kincaide 9:53
I'm in let's see, I would say the biggest takeaway. I can Use for for the audience's sake is to model patience. I think patience is something that we, we tend to lack a lot of in today's society. But moreover, like, when you're on set, you know, you call times that, like, you know, I was just doing some work on gangs in London, just doing a bit of stunt work on that. So you know, your call time is radically early two hours journey. You sit there all day, and you're not used, for example, oh, yeah, it's like, you could go, Oh, my God, I've had a bad day, blah, blah, blah. Or you just embrace the fact that you're working in one of the key industries that you want to be a part of, and embrace that. So moving from all areas that I've had experience with answered, like making films and stuff like that. The key is just to model patients. And to know that, like, there's a process for everything that you got to do. And, you know, just I think with patience, also comes the ability to, to make crucial decisions without emotion, coming to involved in it, because I think that's it's a very emotional game if you get too connected to make sure that his knees and emotion as the player a certain part.

Alex Ferrari 11:19
Yeah, I think some of the best advice I ever got was from Richard Linkletter, who said, well, however long do you think is going to take? It's going to be twice as long, it's gonna be twice as hard. And that's some of the best advice I've ever heard in the film business. And also don't be a dick. That's the other. That's like the best piece of dope. Don't be a dick. It's so true, isn't it? Isn't that true, though? Isn't that true? Don't be dick

Leroy Kincaide 11:44
The thing is people not saying it's a bad apple. Look, let's not kid ourselves. We all have a bad day. We all everybody day, yes. But the key is about how you don't allow your day to affect you, but beyond you others, and try your best to actually be someone that people want to mix it up and collaborate with. You know, in this world, we have an eclectic mix of everybody, which is important, because don't want everyone the same. So some people you naturally won't shoot the breeze so frequently with, but the key is like, you're all there to share the journey, right? And the process so just always get your pickaxes up, get your shovels and just dig, go for gold man.

Alex Ferrari 12:30
Cut wood carry water cut wood carry water

Leroy Kincaide 12:35
Amen.

Alex Ferrari 12:37
No, I just real quick, I wanted to kind of go back a little bit to your wrestling time. Is there anything from those 15 years working in that side of the entertainment business? Any lessons that you brought into your filmmaking as well?

Leroy Kincaide 12:54
Yeah, I would say it would be the, the discipline, the the, the the process of realizing that like, you know, when you start out wanting to do a certain the same wrestling, you'd want to do a certain move, you'd not do it right the first time, the 10th time, you're still not doing it right, the 20th time, the 30th time, maybe by the 14th time, you might have suffered something. And the repetition in the repetition is the thing that I find most effective in the film industry where I translate the whole book. So the way I look at that is being highly obsessed with what ever process I'm going through. And I repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat to a level that we're probably most people probably wouldn't want to keep going. But I think at the point when you feel like just there's enough, no, you've got more in the tank, keep going. The discipline that I find from wrestling that I pull into this industry, just it's paid, paid off hugely, because it meant at times where I could have dropped the ball there times where I could have maybe gone I don't know if I can quite do it. I know whether it's a good day, a bad day where I've got a cold, whether it's night, whether it's morning, I got to get up, I got to make stuff happen. And they said it needs to be done. Or the grade needs to be done. Or this script needs to be finished. It's just so easy to to let yourself off. And I try to not like ever do that. Like I do my absolute best to continue to just keep pushing the needle as hard as possible. Especially especially in in the film industry because the thing there's not it's not an easy way to make something happen. Right? It's always tough

Alex Ferrari 14:51
For every for everybody man for even at the event at the highest levels. Those guys are still struggling to get some things made. You know, you know I and I've gotten to talk to a lot of men I hear off air I like so what's your next project? Man? I can't get financed. I'm like you can't you got an Oscar How can you not get fine is in the like, he's the kind of movie I want to tell on the budget I need and this and that. It's it's it's different, obviously, than getting your first film off the ground, but it's still a struggle no matter who you are. Yeah, yeah.

Leroy Kincaide 15:17
It's always like, as I say, like, each new level brings a new devil, right?

Alex Ferrari 15:22
Oh, that's good. Say that again, say that again? Say that again? I like that one. So

Leroy Kincaide 15:25
Each new level brings a new devil.

Alex Ferrari 15:28
I'm gonna steal that one brother. That's good.

Leroy Kincaide 15:32
You know, nothing's ever really stolen.

Alex Ferrari 15:35
Yes, we're paying that will pay I'll pay for it, sir.

Leroy Kincaide 15:40
No credit is paid on. Yeah, with the new levels thing and new devils is basically like, you know, the more money you get, the more responsibilities are gonna come in the money. You know what I mean? It's like, at this level, you know, I've just made the debut horror. It's like, get fabulous. You know, we've just gone out there, and we've just made it happen. Sweet. Let's say the next film, we get a ton of investment in. Yeah, that's great. Now we've got responsibility. Not that we haven't already. But we now got a responsibility to make sure that that person that trust, us, gets it back. And then the higher the budget, the more people and I could just, you know, if there was 100 million budget thrown my way. You know, what, I think I need a stiff coffee, double espresso.

Alex Ferrari 16:35
Every, every 15 minutes on the set.

Leroy Kincaide 16:40
Process The weight of how, how much that is not just about my creativity, that's like, someone's trusting me with that. Like, that's a lot man. Like, and that's a responsibility not many of us are gonna ever feel the weight of so I think we can call stones, you know, people that have done whatever and whatnot. But it's like until we're there. You know, it's, we got to realize each level with its new Devil is a process.

Alex Ferrari 17:09
Oh, there's no question. And I've said that to so many people. I'm like, I can't even imagine what it's like to be James Cameron. Like, I mean, like, I can't even comprehend what he did with avatar. You know, the first Avatar, I can't comprehend what he did had to deal with, with that. davek being the biggest movie of all time, at that moment. You know, like, that kind of pressure and also trying to be creative. And also trying to deal with the politics and also trying to do it like it. I can't I Yeah, man. I, you if you see directors, they age, like presidents. Yeah, you know, it's like they because there's a lot of stress until unless you're like, unless you're like, like Ridley Scott, who can bust out like four gladiators a year. And he'd be like, I'm good. Like, he's just that guy. But because he's been doing it. Jesus, man. I think he's spent more time on set than he has outside of set in his lifetime. More like more likely.

Leroy Kincaide 18:10
Yeah, I think they were back in the mix of doing a new Gladiator.

Alex Ferrari 18:14
Yes, they are. Yeah, they're doing they're doing the the sequel to the sequel, The Gladiator. I mean, he just busted out what? That new one, the last tool and the house of Gucci and now he's doing another like he, he does and he's like 81 or something like that.

Leroy Kincaide 18:30
We don't know his age, but

Alex Ferrari 18:31
He's like, he's just he just but most prolific one of the most prolific directors of his of his generation. He just works Nevers, but I think that's the commercial side of it. He was because he didn't make his first feature to lose 40 Did you know that he didn't make his first feature to lose 40 That's when he made his first feature. But before that, he had 20 years of a million commercials and music videos.

Leroy Kincaide 18:56
But he posts so much like, I remember watching like, I think on YouTube, there's like a kook optics I've got like, yeah, behind the scenes there. Sure. And they were talking it was one of the cinematographers were talking about how we got lots of his inspiration from doing commercials for Blade Runner, and all of that because he got a lot of time to experiment in that space. And I think that's like phenomenal.

Alex Ferrari 19:22
Oh, no, no commercial because some of the best directors in history have come out of commercials but Ridley and Tony were the first do that really. They broke down that that was before Fincher and before Spike Jones and Fuqua and all those you know Michael Bay and those guys that came out afterwards but alright, we want to see we just get out there apologize. So tell me about your film and the last right how tell me the horrific story of how this thing got

Leroy Kincaide 19:51
You know, what did I have to do? Literally everything

Alex Ferrari 19:54
Who did you kill? Who did you kill? Where are the bodies buried?

Leroy Kincaide 19:58
In the back garden, just thank you. Thank you know so like the one the last right come about that Well, I think it film first the film is, let's say it's a mixture between Exorcism of Emily Rose meets Amityville Horror focuses around three elements sleep paralysis and night terrors. demonic possession, and shadow figures like Daddy, that's where the heart of the story is birthed from. inspired by true events, not story, true events, some of the events that have inspired that story I had personal experience with. So, you know, I used to get a lot of night terrors and sleep paralysis stuff when I was a kid, very interesting story, I won't go into massive, massive detail. But yeah, some things that affected aspects of my sleep right up until later years being like, you know, nearly 20. And I drew a lot of my inspiration for the piece around the subject matter itself. And then I just wanted to, like, serve it the best way I could, by telling a story that needed to be told, without all the smoke and mirrors stuff, you know, there was no budget to, to make it like, you know, with heavy CGI, and all of that. And so it was a case of doing the absolute best at telling the story without, you know, without any all the bells and whistles and giving it key execution. And that was really what we did. So we started in 2018, start beginning the script 2018 and filmed in 2019. There was a little story there that was due to shoot in March of 2019. So we we just secured the beautiful house that we went to shooting. So it's like yeah, let's get this house paid for the house. You know what they'll get money we had we booked the house for a month. And then just in between that I was doing door work. So as a part time doormen. So I was working in nightclubs and stuff like that. And this big fight erupted, pretty brutal, was punched in the eye with a key horrible stuff. And I put my arm out and told my bicep just before due to film. This was literally like the 20th of January. And I was about five, four weeks out from filming. So being, you know, on the indie side of it, where we had to literally do 1,000,001 jobs ourselves, as the DP as the director as the writer, and yet, everything. It's like, I knew what that meant. That meant we wasn't going to be able to shoot at the day would book the household. So we run the risk of losing like all of the all of what we put down as a deposit and everything. So luckily, we were able to work that out. So we pushed filming back until September. And then yeah, 2020 where you got me through was pretty much the edit. It was lots of editing, lots of cutting backwards and forwards collide a lot more time. Everyone had time.

Alex Ferrari 23:12
You got to perfect it. So you financed us, right?

Leroy Kincaide 23:16
Yes, yes.

Alex Ferrari 23:17
So. So do you mind talk? Do you? Are you allowed to talk about the budget?

Leroy Kincaide 23:22
Oh, yeah, we were quite cool to talk about is not

Alex Ferrari 23:26
Okay, so what was it? What was the budget of this film? Because it looks fantastic.

Leroy Kincaide 23:29
So the budget for the film was 27,000

Alex Ferrari 23:35
Pounds. So yeah, she's looking at like, $40,000 I'm like that probably 35 or $40,000. That's, that's pretty good. I mean, I believe it looks really good for that price. No, no, it No, it does look good. Look, I get I get hit up all the time if people want to be on the show. And the first thing I do is I check the trailer. And if the trailer doesn't like I can't man, I'm sorry. I can't, like I can't, I gotta, there's gotta be you gotta be at a certain level man. And I could smell it really quickly. But I saw that was a really nice, polished piece. It looked good. And then I was even more impressed when I found out that you did the majority of the hats and, you know, speaking from someone who does the majority of the things on my films, you know, I do I do the same thing. So hustle recognizes hustle. So how how did you handle all of those hats?

Leroy Kincaide 24:28
By you know, like, by not over complicating the wheelhouse, right? I guess you could say like if I if I look back through through my years and the backstory is important, because we all learn a different way, right? Like we can all retain information a certain way. Some people are like, proactive learners, they go out and do things make it work, but they use this in the classroom, or they're great in the classroom, but awful at putting things into practice. I was the first one. So I learned very well By doing stuff, I wasn't the best academically sitting in a room. So because of my abstract obsessive nature being, shall we say a tad off of the radar with high functioning autism and all that, not that that's a bad thing. What it allows me to do is process a high amount of information, and not see it as multiple things and see it as one thing. So what I do is, I don't see all the jobs as multiple jobs, I see them as part of the process to get the feel mate.

Alex Ferrari 25:34
To perspective is this perspective difference?

Leroy Kincaide 25:37
It absolutely feels like, if you talk about it, if I talk about it, and go, Okay, well, I had to learn about the writing. And then you learn about the writing into, you know, three act structure, and then you learn about character development, and you're this character work and all that, that's your script, and then you look at the lenses, and then you look at camera, and then you look at it, before you know it, there's like 20,000 Different things they're looking at. And if you put them all down on paper and said, You got to learn all of this in a matter of whatever your mind would just go. I can't How can you retain all that, but because over time, and I mean, this is over a gradual process of time, mind you, it's not like, you know, three years, I just said, I want to make a film. You know, I've been doing other bits before that other shorts, before that. The information has been just gradual. So what I've been able to do is fine tune the direction that I want to go in as a filmmaker, because that that helps, you know, knowing the, the direction I want to go creatively and as a an artist, but also as someone who's wants to be in the business as a business player, not just someone who's like, Oh, I've got to paint pretty pictures. Like, yeah, I want to paint pretty pictures, but it's no good if you film doesn't correlate in the right way. You know, so it's about realizing that telling the story comes from a few places, you know, as you know, is the story you write the story you read it and the story that you know, it's really so that it so for me, it was more about like, what am I serving as a story? Can I serve it to the best of my ability throw myself at all areas? Because we didn't have the money to throw it? All the areas? You know, we had like what? 30 I think it was like 36 days shoot.

Alex Ferrari 27:35
Oh, wow. Maybe you shot 36 days? On a on a $40,000 budget? How the hell did you do the bombing people were on your crew.

Leroy Kincaide 27:47
My producer, Chloe, you know, she was like wearing a gazillion hearts as well. Sure she was born wardrobe and Okay, prepping the food and that there was a sound guy who was with us the duration. And maybe on on most of the days we had a makeup artist, only one. But there were days where we didn't have any. And then other than that, it was all me like so. I

Alex Ferrari 28:16
You rigged all the light you rigged all the lights you set everything up yourself. You didn't know you had no gaff you had no, no grips. None of that stuff. You just figured it all out yourself. Well, man, that's even. That's even more impressive looking at the trailer, because you look at that film, it looks polished as hell, man. It does. It has a very good look to it. And it looks polished and doesn't look like it does not look in the least like you shot it for 40 grand and had three four people on set. I mean, it's I mean, it is a one location. It's basically a one location movie, right

Leroy Kincaide 28:51
14

Alex Ferrari 28:52
14 locations, you know, but most of it takes place in the house. Right?

Leroy Kincaide 28:57
Most of it takes place in the house.

Alex Ferrari 28:59
But you ran you ran around you ran around outside of the house as well in other locations.

Leroy Kincaide 29:05
Oh, no. So what we did, we had to have one block during the house process, which, you know, that that, you know, that was a process in itself because it was balancing night and day and a lot of the film took place at night. And there were some night and day shoots where you know, people got like no sleep. But ultimately, once we got the block of the house done, that was the main bulk of the film. And then there were other bits where we had to go to like church a couple of times. It was like two churches. It was like a another like monastery sort of place which we used where there's like an interview type of deal going on there or meeting so yeah, it was a variety of different locations to try and even though it takes place in one location, it was about trying to make it feel like it had more scope around it. Like it's a world there as opposed to just a house like you know So yeah, so there was a lot of legwork by all parties involved. But yeah, we we most we had four crew on a day.

Alex Ferrari 30:11
God bless, bro that that is that is impressive man because I know what it feels like shooting I shot my first feature in eight days for like you know a few 1000 bones and and I was I did most of everything and I had the most three four people on set. And mind you guys was a comedy not a horror, but it's still yours came out looking really really nice man. So congrats on that bro.

Leroy Kincaide 30:34
Are you talking about

Alex Ferrari 30:37
No, no, no, I'm talking about this is Meg.

Leroy Kincaide 30:40
Oh, this is Meg.

Alex Ferrari 30:41
This is Meg was my Yeah, this is Meg was my first feature which I shot for five grand over the course of eight days in LA and we just shot up a bunch of people's houses we shot it, I think in I think eight total days. And I shot I that was when I D peed myself because I was like what the hell I want to I want to shoot it. And it was my first feature. And we got it. We sold it to Hulu and we sold internationally. And we had some we had some faces and some you know some stars, not say stars but faces that people recognize. And it did very well. Ego and desire was a whole other code that was that was just me running around for three to four days with me and my sound guy, my camera man and my DP and that's it. So it was like three people running around Sundance stealing the entire movie.

Leroy Kincaide 31:25
It was very interesting the way you picked stuff up. I was assuming I was thinking, I'm sure did you have permits, they do permits, permits

Alex Ferrari 31:36
Permits. I just told the entire movie even went to Sundance headquarters and shot two scenes there. Yeah, we just we were just fearless man, it was just and it was so scary. Because honestly, I got on the airplane. And I didn't know if I had a movie, because I didn't have time to watch the film because we you know, we only shot we shot a total 36 hours for the entire feature. So production time was 36 hours. And there's just no time to sit there. And I mean, I saw that we transferred files but I didn't like look at dailies. So I did I really have no idea if I could fit if it was gonna be a really, really long short, or is this gonna be a feature? And I was like, I just need to make it 70 minutes. That's all I care about. I just needed 70 minutes, and we made it to 73 minutes. And I think we used 98% Of all the footage we shot. But oh yeah, it was just like, it was such a crazy experiment. It was an experiment. You know, it was just like, hey, let's see what happens. And don't forget, I was also shooting interviews at the time too. So I was like, making the movie on a side hustle. While I was actually interviewed people for the show

Leroy Kincaide 32:43
It should be more like about how you made that happen because like as someone that you know if you're doing a DP stuff as well.

Alex Ferrari 32:49
No, that was Yeah, that one I didn't DP actually smart enough to bring my DP with me. So ah, I'm so it was me my DP who was also my camera op with my gear and my lenses and you know, we talked about how I wanted everything to look and everything like that we shot it with a pen, it was the Blackmagic tennety P pocket cameras I wanted that 16 sensor and I had an amazing sound guy that was a three and then I had one friend who would just come and do whatever so we had four people crew running around with three talent seven is running around the entire dance asserting stuff it was it was insane. It was a different world when people could actually go on a bus without a mask on and there were crowds and all that all this stuff and was it the crowd

Leroy Kincaide 33:35
Ohh man what a time to have been alive right?

Alex Ferrari 33:38
Time to be alive. Jesus,

Leroy Kincaide 33:42
You would just think it was like let's literally like a couple of years ago.

Alex Ferrari 33:46
It was it was it was two three years ago when we shot it Yeah, we shot it in 2018 I released them in 2020 in January of 2020 right around Sundance time and we actually premiered it rain dance we will premiered it rain dance.

Leroy Kincaide 34:00
I was just gonna say we I was gonna go down there that year for 24 Rain dance but obviously you know obviously lock downs and stuff happened but rang dance like yeah, so they permeate that I study ocean dude.

Alex Ferrari 34:15
Yeah, it was a big that was a big festival for so it's a great great festival, the world premiere at and the only festival honestly that didn't have a stick up there but about a film about Sundance because I didn't realize how if you've seen the movie, you'll understand it is a perfect film festival movie. It literally is as perfect for film festival crowd as you can get. And film festivals just had a real big stick about promoting Sundance. And like because you don't want your audience sitting. Watching a movie about another festival that's much cooler than what your ads and I didn't consider that when I made the film. I thought it was gonna be like a Gangbuster across like, Oh, it's just gonna get the can. This is getting into Toronto. This is gonna get to South by this. Nope. You Nothing man I got rejected,

Leroy Kincaide 35:01
Like access denied

Alex Ferrari 35:03
Access, oh, no Access denied. But I always tell the story that Sundance normally when you send something to Sundance, you know, he's in that Vimeo link. And you see, like, it's it gets seen two three times, you know, like, you know, a couple, a couple of screeners will watch it. And you know, if it gets up a little bit, you might have four or five people watch the movie at 60 views. They just got passed through. Everybody watched it, because everyone's like, someone shot a movie at Sundance. Do you want to see this? Like, it was like, it was like this whole thing. And I've actually met is so funny. I won't say who it is. But I've met other programmers at that are big at big festivals. And then they'll go, Oh, you're Alex. Yeah. I've seen your movie. I was like, really? Like a 20? Shot of Sundance. Right? Yeah, we saw it. So it's like this cult little thing that goes on the ground now, but anyone listening? If you haven't seen ego and desire, please go, go go watch it. Because it's so it's, if you're, if you're a filmmaker, man, it's built for filmmakers. Now I have to ask you, man, so Alright, so we all have that day as directors on set, that the world is coming down crashing around us that everything's going wrong. And oh, my god, how am I going to get out of this? What was that day for you? And how did you overcome that obstacle?

Leroy Kincaide 36:22
Um, right. Now, I really wish I could say that that happened.

Alex Ferrari 36:30
It didn't say it was perfectly perfectly run through everything was smooth all the way through,

Leroy Kincaide 36:35
Outside of a day getting rained off, which was an evening, so we chop in the day in house. And then it was an evening, we just do tissue. But because it was raining, I was like, well, we'll just move it to another day. I wish I had a more dramatic story than that. Let me try and think of something. I mean, like, you know, the thing that I think is the most difficult thing in the process is being consistent. You know, if you're shooting, what play six nights, stay six days shoots and stuff. It's like, the persistent, like repetition of it is quite hard. Like I think that's, that's a tough thing, I'd say, in terms of an actual day and never really had a bad thing. Oh, boy, actually, oh,

Alex Ferrari 37:27
There it is. There it is. I was when I was I was waiting, I was waiting, I was like, wait a minute,

Leroy Kincaide 37:33
Swami. I'm not gonna I want I want, you know, I wanna throw anyone under the bus or anything. But there was one specific night, you know, I'm very, more to say, quite hands on director, I believe in allowing a lot of room for people to play and have fun. I think that's part of the process. In all areas, not just on screen, I think, you know, with crew, like, you know, allowing room for people to work and develop, because, hey, we're all in this process together. Let's make it work. There were just one of our team players on the crew side, who wasn't quite getting across what we needed. And what I would say, Anthony, this is a good point, actually. What I would say would be to stop the process of processing thinking, when you sense somebody is not right, as you get going. Now, you have interviews with people, right? You get people on board, you get people in the mix, you hope everyone's gonna stick by the word, and do what they say. Because that's why you employ them to get them in the mix. You're like, look, we got natural budget. It's gonna be a crazy ride, we want to do a fabulous thing with this project. You want to you want in like, you know, it's your first film, it's our first film, whatever, like this, just have fun. There was one of the people that we got working with over time, it did more to say, she probably should have left the project in the first week. But you know, you're trying to manage a budget and you keep people on board as long as possible. There was a point where we almost didn't get the main part one of the main aspects of the movie because of this individual, not quite being not not up to task, the attitude just wasn't, wasn't right. And, you know, you know, I, I try, you know, I want to come around and give hugs and love and rainbows and unicorns, but sometimes it unfortunately just doesn't work and that managing a person at four in the morning after a long slog of I was in that it can be quite taxing. So I think that was a tough, a tough thing. And the way I managed that is with empathy. You know, you have to, you have to remember that, like, you know, people were there away from their family and their loved ones, and I'm whatever. And I understand that. And I think it's not about, you know, being a lion and trying to bite people's heads off. It's about just being okay. You know, it is hard to not take it personal, though.

Alex Ferrari 40:32
I was a direct as a director, absolutely. I understand that point. Yeah, easily.

Leroy Kincaide 40:36
You know, when you're when you're trying to create something, and someone is trying to project to you what you need to do versus no, this is what I want, not what I need you to do for me, I just need this and all. So that managing those things, in that moment in time, probably, I would say was the toughest bit. If I'm honest, it wasn't like, you know, an actor didn't show up, or, you know, we rushed the location.

Alex Ferrari 41:08
But that's actually more that's, I think that's even more devastating than, you know, an extra not showing up sometimes. Because that's a one off thing where this is a continuous. It's a continuous burn, if it's not handled properly.

Leroy Kincaide 41:21
Yeah, yeah. And it's like the, you know, one of the things, especially in the indie, indie scene, right, is when you don't have a lot of budget to just, okay, thank you very much. Thanks for your time ended today, we'll get someone else in whatever. When you don't have the budget to really play in that ballpark. You You've got to remember, like, you've now run the risk. If the longer you keep said people in the mix, you run the risk of derailing what you're trying to do that. And that's one of the things that like, you know, because I believe for me, I like to, as I say, I like to give hugs, love, and all of that, because it's a tough process this thing. But there comes a point where you, you have to ask yourself, like, what is everybody here to do? You know, if if you are all here to tell your story, to get your film across the line? Because it's tough. Lots of days, lots of hours, and all of that. How do you work this situation to make it the best outcome for all. Now, sometimes you have to make a tough decision to do that. Because if you don't, what happens is you end up looking back in the edit, go in, I wish I'd done this, I wish I'd done that we shouldn't have done this, we shouldn't have done that. And I don't know as a as a filmmaker, I and a director, I can't allow myself that much leeway to sit down in the edit and go, Ah, I wish I just said this not gonna do it.

Alex Ferrari 43:03
No. And I think that's a lesson that you learn. I think that's a lesson that you learn as you get older. I mean, even though this was your first feature, you'd been around the block a couple times already, by the time you made your first as a human being, you bet. And so just but and also just bumping around and in, in wrestling and also as an actor. So this wasn't your first barbecue per se. So you've had some experience, but when you're younger, you don't want to ruffle feathers. It's about you know, ego sometimes and you don't want to, you know, you don't want to start fighting and so you let certain things go. But when you get into the Edit, you're just like, dammit, I wish I would have gotten that. Dammit. If I did not have to cut around. This is not exactly what my vision was. That's the lesson you start learning early on as a director. And look, I just had it happen a few years ago, when I was on I was on a show that I was doing and I won't throw them under the bus either. But there was a key crew member. We had to shoot. I shot 96 pages in four days. And it was it was a show an eight episode show. And we never went over we shot 10 hour 10 hour things 10 or 12 hours I forgot what it was, but we never went over and not one day. And this guy was giving me problems day one, and he was just giving me attitude. And I And the funny thing was, it was my production company. Like my producer hired him. My producer hired him. So I was literally paying his bills. And he and he had no he had no issue he like he he was just giving me attitude, like within the first day. And I just turned on my DP I was like, Oh, this isn't gonna work. We're gonna have to have a conversation. So I pulled them aside and he's like, Look, man, either get on get on board or get out of the way. Because I can do this without you, bro. I've done I've done I've been doing this 25 years. I don't need your position. I'll handle whatever you're doing. So either get on the board or get the hell out of the way. And it was a very smooth thing. Well after that it was very calm relaxed. Yes, sir. No, sir. But you know, sometimes there are those old it was he was a little bit older than me and had no idea not that I'm anybody but had no idea what experience I had. He just saw some guy show up and like Who the hell's this guy. And sometimes you've got to, you've got to show some teeth. Unfortunately, you've got to because it's your responsibility as a director to tell the story. It's in your hands. And if you don't fight for the story, nobody else will see it. And as a ODP friend of mine used to say you're surrounded by assassins. So like, there's constant things happening all around you all the time. And I use that term constantly is like, oh, surrounded by assassins? Because it's, it's like, oh, this is not working, or that didn't work or I can't get I can't get the dolly track fast enough. Or I got it set this line up again. I gotta make it turn around. It's 1000 things. But yeah, that turns surrounded by assassins is very, very apropos.

Leroy Kincaide 46:07
I like it, I like it,

Alex Ferrari 46:08
You can steal that one. And you can steal that one. Even Trade, it'll be an even trade. Yeah,

Leroy Kincaide 46:14
I'll put your name just underneath it like the quote, you know, surrounded by assassins? Yeah, I think I do think though, when I when I listened to the Savannah, you know, I'm some of the like the put my ear to the floor and listen to what the consensus in how things are, and what's moving and what's going around. I think it's definitely a subject that I believe a lot of people would talk more about, but they treat it very much like taboo, in terms of dealing with problematic characters, because unfortunately, you are right, the surrounded by assassins analogy is very, very crucial. Because, you know, everybody is making a movie with you. Or they're making their movie in your film. And the it's very easy to see what's going on. As all this is all smoke and mirrors. And it's all wonderful when lovely and dandy, but sometimes, you know, if if you don't address the key things that need to be stared managed, you know, there was a couple of other situations as well. Some stuff happened in post where other people you bring to the party to share a slice of the cake. And not everybody shares what you see. Oh, yeah. And I'm very pleased to have come out this side of it and very much stuck to my guns on everything, like I believe I will, I will always accept a new idea. I'll always accept the possibility of a new idea. But if it doesn't improve the direction and where I'm going, I don't want it. Like, I'm happy to say that because I think, you know, we have all got our own story that has got us to this point in time in life and stuff like that. And it it's not for me to know what Alex Ferrari should do to be better. It's like, if I can't give you what you need, then I shouldn't it's not my job to tell you what you need to do, because I want you to do it. Right. You know, and, and unfortunately, we get this word. There's a word that goes around the collaboration word. People say you're not collaborative, when the All they're doing is projecting what they want you to do. And right, that's not collaboration. To me, that's not collaboration, right?

Alex Ferrari 48:38
It's also not professional, you know, the professional, you know, when you're working with I mean, I mean, we could throw around big names like Ridley Scott or Steven Spielberg. And they, they actually have collaborators, who they've worked with on many projects and things like that, but they're actually collaborators, but they understand that the end of the day, it's even a release call, like, no one's gonna tell. And obviously, they walk in with the mountain of, of reputation that they've built over their careers. But when you look at George Lucas or James Cameron, who both no offense to the British, the British cruise, but gave George Lucas a hell of a time on Star Wars and gave James Cameron a hell of a time on aliens, and they both shot over a pinewood. And it was they just didn't, they just didn't believe in what this guy was these guys were doing and they just, they were making their own movie. And they had to like it had to fire the first ad. Like if you just watched on Netflix, they just released the movies that made us and I saw the whole aliens one and you just hear the stories and like, the first ad was like this British guy and he was like a legend is the first ad and the crew loved him but no one cared about this. James Cameron guy who did this little movie called Terminator who had not it yet in England, so no one had ever even seen what he done. Oh, it's a whole story. But anyway, but yeah, but they fought through it. They fought through it and were able to To create, you know, two of the greatest, you know, sci fi films in history, you know, but that's the, but that's the case of who they are. As filmmakers, you know, and they had to fight to get that thing I have to ask you, did you have tea time? Is that a thing? Or is that just really? Was there a time? What is their tea time on set? Stop? Do you like stop production in England? For at like, oh, it's one o'clock. God stop tea time. Is that a thing?

Leroy Kincaide 50:28
I would like to say that's not really a thing. But I think that's more of a thing that we probably as Brits, like, admit, for sure. Like, you know, slight like, sure. Sure. It's, it's like a sacred practice here. Like, you know, lunch has to be lunch, like, we you know, it's got to be the right lunch. It can't be like, any sort of lunch. It's got to be the right lunch. And what I mean by that is like, yeah, we've got working lunches and stuff. Sure, sure, you know, in the game and stuff like that. But ultimately, we all as Brits, I believe, do like the solid one hour lunch. Without fail every day, we can get that most people are cool.

Alex Ferrari 51:09
But there is a break for Tito. There's a little tea time break somewhere along. So it was so funny. It's so funny, because I come from Miami. And that's why I started my production career. And I'm Cuban. So I was raised on Cuban coffee. If you're ever in a production, a true production in Miami wood that is based from Miami, you're gonna see a little old man, or a little old woman. Come around with a tray full of thimbles there thimbles of coffee. And you're going to look at and go, Wow, that's such a cute little coffee. Maybe I should have five or six of them. No, you should pick one. And hold on tight. But that's the thing and everyone stops for the Cuban coffee. Everyone can. That's a Miami production thing. It does happen all the time. But if it's a true Miami production, they they bring that around and I love Mike man when I'm on set, man, I got a little man comes out. And he's like, making it like in the back on like on a hot lead. Not a hot stove. But uh, you know, I'm talking about the electrical stove or something like that, like, yeah, yeah. And he's just like mixing it in like a can and stuff. And like, ah, ah, the best man. There's the

Leroy Kincaide 52:16
There's nothing like coffee like so one of the one of the rules I made sure we had in our house was like coffee was on top. 24/7 If you want a coffee, there's an espresso machine and a Tassimo machine. Don't make yourself one. Absolutely. Because I think like, you know, in the house, it was very, like, a communal area. Sure, sure. When we shot the film. So, you know, we sort of like said, you know, all the policy here, guys, whenever you want a coffee, it was you know, it wasn't like, we put it way out of the way. And you can only have it between the hours of one and two and don't taking too many. There was just like we just, I believe very much so in like being able to look after your your people that they're No, it's just it's bothering.

Alex Ferrari 53:04
And that's such a small thing. But go such a long way. Like if you're on set and it's the 11th hour. And I gotta like beg for a cup of coffee. It's a it's not a good thing. Like I gotta make a run to Starbucks. Like that shouldn't be a thing. I mean, maybe an extra thing. But if you just want to grab a quick coffee or quick something to keep you going. Feed them well. Make sure there's always coffee. Try not to do have you heard of the spinning that's spinning wheels of death for lunch or dinner? Have you heard of spinning wheels of death? No. That's pizza. That's pizza. So that's good. Spinning wheels of death as as my old salty DP used to call? Are you not giving a spinning wheels of death? Are you Please don't. Please don't do that. Because Because pizza will just bring you it just slows everything down. It's quick, it's cheap, but you will pay for it. In the long run.

Leroy Kincaide 53:56
Yeah. I mean, like we for most of the nights because obviously we we were pretty much on average. I mean shooting night shoots, right? We were literally we pretty much all became nocturnal. So we didn't really actually get to bed much before six to 9am on people. A couple of you know, the legendary crew. You know, Jonathan Ito he was our sound guy. He was traveling up from London to Ken so he would come down and he'd like you know, you'd get down for like five maybe 6pm You'd have his nice coffee and have his token coffee as he would always do but then by the time he was finished, he would have to drive another hour and a half back God bless like six six in the morning and he hit this guy this guy was like one of our like bedrocks short sound sound of your of the production because I think for me, I absolutely worship sound I think It's jumping.

Alex Ferrari 55:02
Look, look when I was making one desire, man, people were like, how the hell did you get that sound like, it sounds like it sounds amazing. I go, it's all a mixture between my location sound guy and my post sound guy. And both of them working together made that movie sound much better than it ever had any business of sounding. And it gave me gave the whole movie a production boost of value production value boost. It's so so so important.

Leroy Kincaide 55:29
Yeah, yeah. I mean, one of my, one of my, he was the key person, and we got involved first. So he was our first team player. And, and I said to him, I said, you know, like, we're going to be working very closely, because, you know, I'm DP in it and stuff. But one of the things I said to him, I was like, Look, you are like, pretty much like God on the set, in terms of, if you need more time to set up that thing to get the sound right. We're going to take the time, and we're going to set that up how you need it, because he was on his own. So he didn't have a mixer or whatever he was mixing and doing all this stuff.

Alex Ferrari 56:05
Just mix it and hold it up. Oh, yeah, do this and say, Oh, no, dude. These guys are ridiculous. I have no idea how they pull that stuff off, man. It's, it's amazing. To me,

Leroy Kincaide 56:15
I'll be like, Oh, dammit, we got a boom in shop. But the shop is great.

Alex Ferrari 56:21
We'll fix it. We'll fix We'll fix that out and post. Are you kidding me? We'll, we'll fix it and go clean that up. I always have a rule. Man, I always have a rule. If I'm on set only I'm the only person that can say we can fix it on post. Because I'll be the one fixing it in post. No one else has a lot to say we'll fix it in post because that they have no understanding of what it actually takes to fix that post.

Leroy Kincaide 56:42
Oh, my. Yeah, it is one of the one of the main scenes in the movie, where we've got the main light exorcism thing going on. Lots of action going down. Lovely. Lovely. So I've set the light up. So I've tried to make this light feel like there's some ambient moon light kicking through the room, but it's just like the screen hazy sort of thing. I was like, yep, sweet placed it there. I've got no choice to think about is it bouncing off of the bloody bed is it bouncing off of here. You know, because of the the time in the evening. I just had to get it up. I literally just we should be true. The trigger piece gets opposed. And I can see the light on one part of the bed. The rest of the frame looks cool. But it's on this one particular bit. Every single angle every frame. And I'm like, does this mean I've got to rotoscoped the entire piece. Two and a half weeks later. Yes. I had to literally cut out a light. And I'm very glad I did it. But oh boy is like pulling teeth.

Alex Ferrari 57:50
Amen. It's a lesson you will I promise you won't do that again. I promise. No. That's when you when you get bit once you learn. You're like yeah, well that's that's put it in the back. That's not gonna happen again. Now, you another part of your story, man that's really remarkable is that you landed a major, you know, somewhat say legendary distribution company for indies. Samuel Goldwyn here in the States. How the hell did you land Samuel Goldwyn as a distributor for release of a film? That's from the UK with no stars. In a genre, that's, let's you know, call it what it is. There's a million in one horror movies out there. So how the hell did you land that man?

Leroy Kincaide 58:37
Um, I don't have any

Alex Ferrari 58:42
Idea how it happened.

Leroy Kincaide 58:44
Words gonna say we did this. And we did that. And we did this. And we did that. But however, what I can say, is the things that led up to that opportunity being able to exist. One of the things I would definitely yeah, I'll put this out for people is that like, I was quite naive at the start of it. When we got out, you know, somebody's golden in his company wants to buy your movie and stuff in our kindness. Cool. Right? And I'm like, I feel like I've heard the name before, but I'm not too sure. Anyway, he had this deal sitting around for like, a week, right? And I remember I was talking to him. And then I said, yeah, we've got this company who's quite interested in our film, you know, because we had a lot of nose weird. We had so many knows so many critique so many different things, because everybody's got their idea and what they think, are you moving right? So we would like you know, we got this deal. It seems quite cool. It's in America. America was our main territory that we wanted to really hit. And I sent them an analysis company that said, Oh, Sam Goldwyn, is so what Metro Metro Goldwyn Mayer think Metro goblin. Yeah, yeah, MGM. MGM was that night Yeah, literally, like, for a week, I reset with this name loosely in my head, thinking I'd heard of it. And then I researched it. I was like, what an idiot? And I realized it was the part of Yeah. Yeah, the the legend that he was of these period of time, you know, and the legacy that that company represents was just like, I was very taken back, I'm not gonna lie, I was like, you know, his little old me from a little modest village, you know, don't come from any specific background, and in my family of filmmakers, you know, getting our movie with very little resources available, right from the ballpark, my French part for my big ton of hard work and just effort put in, you know, got our film there. And I did ask myself this question, I was like, what is what has led to this point in time for us to get this movie? With a company like that? And, you know, to answer your question, I think one of the things that, I believe, is the biggest thing was that I never lost sight of the vision that I had for the film, throughout the entire process. This meant that there were times of conflict, and when there were times of uncertainty, and there were times of doubt, you know, it was this reminded me of that first time, well, there's always a first time for something, right. So when you've cut your film, that feeling you feel what the first time you know, it's together is a feeling. The feeling when you first hold your script, from being on a computer to being in physical form, is a feeling. And it's remembering that was the thing that I think, ultimately paid the way forward. Because there were times where we was questioning, you know, do we cut more of the film out? Do we not have enough of this? Do we know, you know, all this down? And you have to get to the stage where you have to believe what your intuition is guiding you to do? You know, not necessarily the feeling side of oneself, but like, your actual intuition, your gut, the gut, the stomach, yeah. Yeah. And let that take you to where it's going to go. The one rule I set to myself is high execution value. That was it. Like, I was, like, I want to shoot it the best way I can, with the most I've got. So making that work in pre production was the key was like finding the right camera finding a lens package or lenses, I could get working with any diffusion, if I used any, really realizing that I had to research my ass off to be able to figure out the best way to communicate my message as a as a director. And then the rest, I would just say, you know, slowly took its way forward. And you know, we we spoke to a different people, some sales agents when we went with moving forward. We just ended up with Samuel Goldwyn, and that sort of really, I don't have any

Alex Ferrari 1:03:19
right place, right time. Right product. That's the way it looks. A year earlier. Maybe now a year from now, maybe no, but right now, it hit I call it the the El Mariachi factor, which is Robert hit at the right place, right time, right product, you know, a couple years after a couple years before, who knows, but that moment in time, all the stars aligned. And sometimes, a lot of times filmmakers don't understand that there is a tremendous amount of luck that is involved in what we do. But you need to help that luck along meaning you've got to be prepared for it when it shows up. Because if you just sat around going, think I'm gonna make a movie one day, I got this idea. It's never gonna happen. But you did it and didn't then these opportunities present themselves the universe does conspire to help you man. It I truly do believe that.

Leroy Kincaide 1:04:15
Absolutely. I mean, there's a definition of luck that I like to work with sometimes, and that is when preparation meets opportunity. Absolutely. You have to, you have to prepare yourself, like Whenever someone's gonna make a film, right? And you're going to set off on this journey. You don't know it's going to take six months or a year or two years or four years or however many years that you say you aim to get it done in this time. And if it works in that timeframe, because you got around for it because of certain things fabulous. We didn't predict 2020 was going to give us COVID We literally all shift of everything we had planned Literally every plan gone, eradicated as it was for everybody. Right? So it meant that we had to, you know, reverse engineer the end goal. Adapt, you know, be, you know, the element of Darwinism, the one who's most adaptable to change is going to be the one that can maybe last the longest, you have to learn to adapt and work these obstacles the best way, because I don't really see problems, more than I see solutions. Solutions are the key.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:32
Yeah, and as in, as I always, if you've heard the show, you know, I always like using the analogy of getting punched in the face, and that we all get punched in, we all get punched in the face in this business, and I don't care who you are, it's just as you go down the line a little bit, you pick up a couple more like that. First, I'm sure your first wrestling match is a lot different than your last. As far as how you took, here's how you how you took a fall. You know, how you all these kinds of how you took a role, how you did all this kind of stuff. As you get older, you start learning how to duck those punches, sometimes you can, you know, move a little bit, but you're going to get punches thrown at you. And it's about adjusting. It's about pivoting. It's about letting those things slide by you. And we all took a huge punch in 2020. And a lot of people didn't recover in there out of the game. And that's what I tried to do with this show is try to let everybody know, don't walk into this. Don't walk into the ring going. Wow, this is a cool place. Who's is that Mike Tyson? What? Why is he coming towards me? I don't. That's what but that's you laugh. But that's filmmakers. Man, I did it too. I was there, I got pushed out a bunch of times.

Leroy Kincaide 1:06:40
But you know that that's the this is the thing. This is why I mentioned the thing about earlier on about having a little butting of heads between myself and someone else just not seeing the right thing in Division. Sure. This is the stuff that if we can't work our way through the bad days, because you can't help but take certain elements personal because you they feel personal. Because you've got people involved, you're working on stuff, you want to go into business with the best interest and someone takes advantage. Unfortunately, the world is filled with people who just see opportunity, and they don't care about you. They just care about what they want. Of course, when you know, when you realize that, like you know, life is really what you make it but beyond what you make it. It's like giving bloody hell for trying to do the thing that you love to do. And who's who can say you can't make it happen. Who's to say you can't do these things? Because you know, we've all heard these stories of people that said, oh, you can't do this. I've even got one of those myself.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:47
What you mean? You mean, somebody told you you couldn't make a film? Shocking.

Leroy Kincaide 1:07:52
Shocking. I heard that my and I was just like, Yeah, but for you, you can't do that. Let me figure it out. And if I fail, I'd like to fail forwards on my terms, not someone else. Amen. Preach, I think. And, and that's the thing that like, the toughest thing with the filmmaking aspect of it is like that, we just got to know that there's a process and a price of entry. And that price of entry could be you make a film and it goes nowhere. It could be you lose a load of money, but then you make some money to make a new film. I don't know what everyone's process is going to be. But everybody's got their process myself. I had to ruin my arm to position myself mentally as a DP. Because that was that was the block of time where I feel I got the most in a three, four month period when when I was off work and off everything because of my injury or mom, that that block of time there had I'd not had that. We definitely wouldn't be having this conversation.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:58
You learn you had the time to educate yourself and test things and do things?

Leroy Kincaide 1:09:03
Dude Yeah, that that time there was in valuable.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:07
So I so I want to I just want to put I just wanted to put a spotlight on this because so many people don't understand this. When you had your house booked, everything was going you were like, I'm gonna go shoot this. And then this accident happens to your arm, which knocks you out for three or four months and pushes everything and changes everything the way you had it planned. When you look back, it was the best thing that could have happened to you in order to make this film as successful as it was but at the moment that that thing happened to you. All you could think about was the bad thing to happen. But I always come to believe that even when bad things happen in your journey, most of the time, if not all the time. When you look back you like you know it was probably good thing that that happened, you know might have shot you know, I needed this. I needed this happen to happen and if I didn't have that this wouldn't have happened. Like with me, I mean, you probably heard the story of me working with that mobster. And doing that movie, you know, almost making the $20 million movie with the mobster and stuff that was the worst time of my entire life. It's just it was devastated me. But looking back, I'm like, that's the that's the thing that made me. That's the shrapnel that is the voice on the microphone.

Leroy Kincaide 1:10:21
Absolutely. I mean, you know, these are character defining moments. Because, you know, when we've, if I go back when when I hurt my arm, I remember my first thought, my first thought was, it wasn't the fact that my bicep wasn't in its right place. Because that the shock of that happened, and that was gone. What was left after that fact, within the five minute window, while there was still the fight and stuff going on, and I was still sort of trying to figure it out, what was going on in the crowd of people was actually I was like, I'm no longer going to be able to hold this camera. And for me, it was more it is funny, but like, for me, it was like a life or death situation because I was like, this is my opportunity to, to build something that potentially can change the trajectory of or start the trajectory of change for the rest of my life. Now, it sounds quite ambitious, quite bolshie to say it, but I feel very much like, purpose is in me creating the film. So because I'm so connected, or was so connected, the injury wasn't the problem. It was like, Nah, I'm not gonna hold the camera, we're gonna lose the location, we were literally, we had the casting for the lead actress the day after, not, not any month. So whatever. After the following day, I had to go after being a hospital till five, or whatever I am, I had to go to the casting to cast our lead actress. And then I had to say to you, I'm really sorry, we've booked you to try and do this, if you're still available. Just let you know, we're gonna have to shoot in September, tore my bicep, and it's black and blues.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:18
So it's so it's so funny that you say that because I just had someone on the show, as of this recording hasn't come out yet. But it will come out in a couple next week, where their first thought they lost their house. They have seven kids. And they lost their house because they mortgaged it to make a movie that failed. And the only thought in his mind was like, oh my god, I'm never going to be able to make another movie again. Not that I've lost my house not like how am I going to provide for my family? The first thought that came to his mind was I'm never going to be able to do this again. And I call that the beautiful insanity. Because that is what we are. We're insane. But there's a beauty behind our insanity because we as filmmakers don't think clearly. Because because we're insane. We're insane. The whole process is insane. From the the indie filmmaker trying to make their first movie all the way to a $200 million blockbuster director or an Oscar winning director. There's an insanity to what we do. And you have to have that spark of insanity to be able to do what we do. But sometimes it goes too far. And that's when marriages or break up and families break up and I mean you desolate I've talked to homeless filmmakers before they got homeless afterwards. It's it's it this is not a game. But, but unfortunately, like I've said before, once you get bitten by that bug, it's with you. You can never get rid of it ever. You can't. It'll go dormant for 30 years, man, but it will pop its head up. Like when you're 65 and you're retired after being a doctor for 30 years and that's the safe route and you're like but you want I really want to do I really want to direct like like you like you're like I've wrestled address I've ever had to wrestle but what I really want to do is direct there is an insanity there to that process. And it's it's a beautiful insanity.

Leroy Kincaide 1:14:17
It's very beautiful. It's also weirdly very It's like being tortured as well. Because Because like I think that the you see this is the issue of creativity right? And now I'm someone who believe very much in creativity is very spiritual in the way that we connect to a vision an idea and we channel it from another Sure Sure sure. Astral plane or whatever. Now, when you have foresight to be able to see your vision you have to deal with the world doesn't see anything close to ever seen what you see that only way you can get that is you have to make it, you have to bring it out your head. Even when you're in process filming, you can show a little rush from the day. But it's not the movie because it's not edited. So the process of this is just in any art form, actually, or any form of creativity where you have to build a vision in your mind, to project it to the world, to give it to the world. To conceive something that nobody else sees, live with it day in, day out, month in, month out year in year out, and still have no one see, it is like absolute torture until you birth that little beauty. And once you've done it, the work is done. Next at a new level a new devil right. But while you're in that creative process, I gotta say like, it's a blessing and a curse, being creative. Because you're never at peace, you're always thinking of new ideas, feeling created creative vibes coming to you wanting a new idea. And our key is almost like being like a radio and tune into the frequency that we need to stay focused on. Because otherwise we're like a dog in front headlights. Right? We just

Alex Ferrari 1:16:13
Shiny lights. Yeah, shiny. Yeah, it's all shiny squirrel, and you just turn it you're like what's going on over there? No, you're absolutely right. And in, you're right, there is no peace, because we have 1000 ideas that 1000 times a second coming in. And we know that we unlike let's see musicians or painters who can go out and paint something in, you know, or go out and write a song, or play a song. That's a lot easier. timewise not craft wise, but timewise than making a film because film is arguably the most complicated art form on the planet. Because you've got to gather so many people you got to it, there's so many other disciplines other than the artistry, you know, the politics of it, the politics of it, the psychology of it, the business side of it, there's so many elements, it really does bring the whole package together of all the Arts and Business and the worst and the best of humanity comfortable from set. I mean, it's there's no question. So it is it is a it is a beautiful insanity that we live my friend. Now where can people where can people see the film?

Leroy Kincaide 1:17:21
So the film, the moment is, by the time that this is all out? It should be on iTunes, Amazon, Vudu, Google and a few other places that are not too familiar with in the States. But yeah, but it's on all the major platforms out there in the States. And we've got a UK deal coming soon. But I'm not too sure when that's coming out in the UK. But yeah, very cool, man. We just get told like this is where it's going. This is what's going on. Fabulous.

Alex Ferrari 1:17:49
As long as as long as the check shows up, brother and clears. That's all that matters.

Leroy Kincaide 1:17:56
You see, that's the bad news today. It's like here because you up. So you've had some beautifully interwoven stories where other filmmakers God bless them have come on and poured their heart out, like by getting stung, and completely ripped off. And it's like, it does make you feel very much like, damn, like, is it even possible to get a film out legitimately anymore without being taken advantage of, you know, it's such a, an area where there's so much mystique and so much like confusion, because us as artists and business, we know we're business entrepreneurs as well, we're building a business, but you know, when you finished your IP, you put it out, and then everyone wants to take that slice of the cake. leave you with, you know, cut the crumbs on the plate. But ultimately, it's like, when you hear of all these stories, I think it can almost like derail you from just aiming to just tell the story. But at the same time, I think be mindful of that there are individuals that do try to take advantage. You know, we had, we had one guy before we signed with anybody. He was contacting us from a random random email, pretending to be some Hollywood producer, right? So the film had just, like started doing around. We was like promoting it on like online and stuff. We just completed the movie, so no one had really seen and this guy had came out of the woodwork and was like, oh, you know, I'd like to take a look at your film. We've got loads of sales agents and people want to look at your movie, blah, blah, blah. And then we found out that this guy had been moonlighting as someone and actually been trying to sell our movie without us even talking to him. He was like, speaking to all these other production companies and distributors and whatnot about our films and he's repping our film. And it was just like

Alex Ferrari 1:20:05
All the time. I've heard that story. It's horrible. It's you know, it Look man, look, don't get me started, you know how I feel about predatory distributors while mentioned IV, you know, that's a key I will I mean, I will go off. It's one of my missions in life. It's one of my missions in life to help filmmakers as much as I can in that department. But the atrocities that I've heard of it's shocking and things that I even haven't even hit the air. Never been on the show, things I hear about in private, are maddening to the to the point where you're just like, I can't even believe this is legal. And it isn't most of the time. But yeah, I've heard people like, and then like, let's say a production company bought your movie, did he have the masters? He didn't have the Masters, right?

Leroy Kincaide 1:20:52
This guy, this guy didn't have, he didn't even

Alex Ferrari 1:20:54
It have a trailer. Right? So this guy was, so this guy was literally going to scam a production company, or another distribution outlet by saying aye, this, get the money and then say, oh, and then you're going to get in trouble. Because they're going to call you and go, Hey, where's our movie? I'm like, What are you talking about? Like, I've never even heard of, I've never heard of that. Do you see that kind of, there's just so much of that in on that side of the business. It's it's not for the faint of heart, man, this whole thing is not for the faint of heart, unfortunately. And it is my job to let everybody know that they are walking into a ring and there are going to be punches thrown at them. And and sometimes there's some MMA guys in there too. So that's even rougher. I'm gonna ask you a few questions asked all my guests are, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Leroy Kincaide 1:20:58
Listen, this thing, longest learn. Ultimately, I would say the lesson that has taken the longest to learn, truthfully, is to trust in my first intuitive nudge to do what I feel I should do. I think we second guess ourselves to the point of where we end up getting confused as people is general. And one of the things that I feel that this took me the longest to trust was what makes me think I could do said thing about doing said thing before, you know, this is a question we ultimately all face. But you somebody who's got have a first time, every time right? Sometimes first, whichever way you look at it. So realizing that I think once once I learn how to, you know, trust in it, let go of any doubt, and just run with it. You know, the last right is the the child of trusting that intuition. So I'd say if anybody's listening and would get something from it, like, you know, just, they could take from this, I would say just trust your intuition. And you know, don't never second guess yourself, like, you know, you get one life and you've got to take take the best swing you can, right, perhaps,

Alex Ferrari 1:23:17
Amen. Well, I appreciate I appreciate that, because that's something that's taken me a long, long time to, to hone is listening to the gut. Because there's something inside, I don't know what it is. But it's something that that tells you certain things. And if you can, if you can tune into that, you're gonna do a lot better than when you don't, don't let your head don't let your head get involved.

Leroy Kincaide 1:23:40
It's quite crazy, too. Because, you know, like, some some of my work that I've done aside from this is I've done a little bit of like, I want to say life coaching, but I've looked at a lot of like thinking into different results and altering shirt mindsets, right. And the mindset is the real thing. This is the thing where people become their self, or they die as a result before they're even dead. What do I mean by that is, you know, we create self sabotaging activities by default, because a lot of time we're born into a family system, environmental system, Gao system or whatever. And we have to break the cycle when ourself to realize the potential. Now, everybody's got potential. Everybody's got the ability to, I don't want to say be at whatever they want to be, because that's a bit too like, you know, sunshine and rainbows stuff, but ultimately, like, we can really exceed in potential but where we stop is because it myself, I talk to myself, because I'm not brought up in a environment where, you know, maybe having money was the thing, or maybe being a filmmaker was the thing. The thing that you look for is the thing that you resonate mostly with because it's, it's in you by default, right? So how do you break that, you have to break it by going against what your head usually tells you to do, oh, you want to do something creative, or what makes you think you can do that? In your head, you get that voice, just like well, and it's your, you're continuously fighting this inner battle. And you can conquer and harness the fact that whatever is going on inside your mind usually is something that's projected to you through years and years and years and years of conditioning. When you undo all that the potential for what you can be is endless. And that's one of the things that like, is the biggest thing that over life I feel that has really enabled me to trust in my intuition and to trust in my abilities. Actually, I get myself out of my own way. You know,

Alex Ferrari 1:25:56
That I'm gonna tell you that I'm gonna I'm gonna leave it at that man. That's a great way to end the conversation. But that was beautiful. So I wish you nothing but the best man continued success with your film. Thank you for being being so honest and forthcoming with your story. And hopefully, it this this conversation will inspire a few people out there. So thank you again for that. I appreciate it, man.

Leroy Kincaide 1:26:20
No worries, man. Thank you for having me.

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Paul Thomas Anderson: The Complete Guide to His Films & Techniques

Paul Thomas Anderson, Paul Thomas Anderson directing

In the larger film community, director Paul Thomas Anderson is widely considered to be one of the greatest living directors in America.  While his output is relatively small compared to his peers, each of his films is of such an impeccably high caliber that his impact on the medium is undeniable.  Affectionately called PTA by his fans, Anderson is held up by his contemporaries as a shining example of a true artist creating truly important work—high praise for a man who has yet to even win an Oscar for himself.

Filmmakers of my generation look to Anderson like the Film Brat generation looked to Stanley Kubrick—a god walking among us, an elder young enough to accessible, an ideal to which we aspire.  It should come as a surprise to no one that Anderson is a profound influence on my own work.  I had first heard rumblings of his greatness towards the end of high school, when all the artsy drama kids could talk about was 1999’s MAGNOLIA during its cult resurgence on DVD a few years after its release.

When I entered Emerson College as a second-semester freshman, my roommates sat me down to watch 1998’s BOOGIE NIGHTS, his second feature and his mainstream breakout.  I was instantly hooked.  Anderson was the first filmmaker where I could actually see how his work was constructed and subsequently desired to emulate it.  He was a role model and a guiding light in the crucial moment of my life when my paradigm of what film could be was radically blown open.

To later find out that Anderson too attended Emerson (albeit only for a year) was a moment of untold delight for me—validation that I was on the right path towards a rewarding, fulfilling career in filmmaking.

Born in 1970 in Studio City, California, Anderson is firmly a member of Generation X, whose filmmakers were raised on an endless diet of movies on videocassette.  The first to cut their teeth using cheap video and not expensive film, they could afford to make mistakes– and they made plenty of them.

Like his peers Steven Soderbergh and Quentin Tarantino, he broke out as a professional director in the heady days of 90’s independent film, catapulted into the limelight by a formidable debut at the Sundance Film Festival.  But unlike Tarantino and Soderbergh, Anderson came from a family already well-steeped in the entertainment industry.

  His father, Ernie Anderson, had been a late night horror TV show host under the name of Ghoulardi—a name that Anderson would later appropriate for his own production company.

At the age of eight, Anderson made his first home movie, and at twelve he began regularly making them with his father’s Betamax video camera.  His father encouraged his pursuits, unconsciously enabling them by providing the junior Anderson with a never-ending source of creative character fodder- Ernie’s own eccentric showbiz friends.  From this ragtag collection of aging hooligans, PTA drew inspiration and began to forge a distinctive voice for himself.

By age seventeen, Anderson felt ready to tackle his first “serious” project.  He recruited the talents of his father and his friends, and raised the money he needed to shoot by taking on a job as a birdcage cleaner.  He wanted to make a film about John Holmes, the legendary pornographer with a legendarily large package.  He was fascinated by the subculture of pornography, at least as it existed in the late 70’s when it was still relatively underground and unregulated.

Stylistically, he was influenced by Rob Reiner’s THIS IS SPINAL TAP (1984) and its comedic documentary conceit.  All of these elements converged to form THE DIRK DIGGLER STORY (1988), a mockumentary about the eponymous, John Holmes-inspired porn star with a large endowment rivaled only by an even larger ego.  Clocking in at 30 minutes (noticeably long for a first work), the short plays like an early blueprint for his breakout feature BOOGIE NIGHTS by featuring prototypes of characters and the same basic plot progression found in the full feature.

Anderson’s friend Michael Stein plays the role of Dirk Diggler, establishing the character as a combative, egotistical force of nature long before Mark Wahlberg got his hands on the part. Bob Ridgely, a friend of Ernie Anderson’s, plays the role of director Jack Horner (later inimitably played by Burt Reynolds in his career comeback).

Ridgley wrings a lot of emotion out of his role, despite hiding his eyes behind giant black sunshades. Other core characters from BOOGIE NIGHTS make their prototypical appearance here, like John C. Reilly’s Reed Rothchild in the form of an impossibly buff Eddie Delcore and Rusty Schwimmer’s Candy Kane, an early version of Julianne Moore’s Amber Waves.

HARD EIGHT (1996)

Screening his short film CIGARETTES & COFFEE at the 1993 Sundance Film Festival was a transformative event in director Paul Thomas Anderson’s career.  Not only was he invited to workshop his film in the Sundance Institute’s prestigious Directors Lab, but he was also approached by producer Robert Jones, who offered his assistance in expanding the film into a feature.

Naturally, Anderson went to work, developing his short into a larger story that concerned itself with an aging gambler who will do anything to hide his dark past from a pair of close friends he’s come to love as if they were his children. Anderson lovingly gave his story the name SYDNEY, like he was naming a child.  His experience in making the film, however, was anything but blissful.

He was hamstrung by Jones’ constant meddling and sizable ego, and further compromised by an inept distributor (Rysher Entertainment) that strong-armed his film away from him only to dump it into theaters with little fanfare.  That film exists now as HARD EIGHT (1996)—beloved with immense fervor by Anderson’ cult of followers but completely overlooked by the mainstream film community.  Last released as a bare-bones DVD in the early 2000’s, HARD EIGHT is in desperate need of a latent rediscovery and a restoration of Anderson’s original vision.

In a diner in the middle of the Nevada desert, an old man named Sydney (Philip Baker Hall) offers a forlorn-looking young man named John (John C. Reilly) a cigarette and a cup of coffee.  They get to talking, and John reveals that he’s just lost all his money in Vegas after going there in hopes of winning enough money to pay for his mother’s funeral.  Sydney takes pity on this poor soul, offering to take him to Reno and teach him a little trick that will net him some money at the casinos.

Two years later, John and Sydney are nearly inseparable—that is, until a streetwise cocktail waitress and sometimes-hooker named Clementine (Gwyneth Paltrow) enters their life.  Initially, the three form something of a family unit, with Sydney acting as the father figure.  However, Clementine risks everything when she makes a bloodied hostage out of a cheap john who won’t pay up.  Fearing the legal repercussions of Clementine’s actions, Sydney urges her and John to flee the city and lay low for a while.

At the same time, he’s approached by John’s friend Jimmy (Samuel L. Jackson), a smooth operator who knows a secret about Sydney’s dark past– a secret that would destroy Sydney’s little family unit forever.

Veteran character actor Philip Baker Hall finally steps into the limelight as Sydney, a paternal and patient soul.  He’s a helper of people, seemingly trying to atone for some great wrong he’s done in his life.  Hall brings a great deal of class and respectability to the film, expanding upon his role in CIGARETTES & COFFEE with an involved performance that might just be his best.  Known primarily for his Judd Apatow comedy gigs, John C. Reilly turns in a rare dramatic performance as the anxious, yet loyal John.

Reilly plays the character like a dog who doesn’t know any better, constantly screwing up and depending on Sydney to bail him out.  John is a lost young man, deeply in tune with his emotions but unable to properly express them.

Gwyneth Paltrow is convincing as the cynical, disillusioned cocktail waitress/hooker Clementine.  Considering her real-life personality, the role of Clementine is an extremely edgy one for her.  She courageously lets her makeup smear and doesn’t shy away from the inherent ugliness of the character’s personality.  As Jimmy, Samuel L. Jackson is dangerously slick and unpredictable.

The 90’s were Jackson’s heyday, seeing him turn in unforgettable performances for directors like Quentin Tarantino and Steven Spielberg.  His trademark pitch-black charm is present all through HARD EIGHT, providing yet another variation on that Jackson persona we all know and love.

Over the years, actors like Hall and Reilly have become a core part of Anderson’s repertory of performers.  A few cameos contained in HARD EIGHT illustrates the foundations of this repertory, like the appearance of Oscar-winning actor and regular Anderson collaborator Phillip Seymour Hoffman as a cocky craps player, and THE DIRK DIGGLER STORY’s Robert Ridgley turning up briefly as a schmoozing keno manager.

Anderson’s repertory isn’t just limited to the talent, it extends to the skilled craftsmen he employs to help bring his stories to life.  As his first feature, HARD EIGHT naturally sees the first instance of collaboration with several of them.  Robert Elswit serves as the cinematographer, shooting on Super 35mm film and helping to establish Anderson’s formalistic aesthetic.

The film is presented in the 2.35:1 aspect ratio, but it wasn’t shot in anamorphic, despite Anderson’s desire to do so (budget constraints).  The visual presentation applies the same approach used in CIGARETTES & COFFEE—a classical, economical style of photography that’s short on fuss and long on power.

The gaudy Reno setting and a low-key lighting scheme lends HARD EIGHT a loungy, neo-noir vibe.  This is also reflected in Anderson’s constantly moving camera, which is always precise and never frenetic.  He utilizes graceful dolly moves, using handheld cameras only sparingly to convey immediacy.  More notably, Anderson incorporates several Steadicam tracking shots that create a slick energy and sense of space.

While he would later use the Steadicam to more striking effect in his later films, Anderson keeps its usage in HARD EIGHT relatively simple, following Sydney as he walks through the casino floor, or as he approaches the fateful motel room that will shake up his adopted family unit forever.  Overall, Anderson chooses to cover a lot of his close-ups in profile, which subtly conveys a feeling of precision and thoroughness in his compositions.

HARD EIGHT also marks the first time that Anderson works with the musician Jon Brion in a score capacity.  Brion collaborates with Michael Penn to create a jazzy, cool-cat sound that accurately reflects both Reno and Sydney’s aged sophistication.  The film also contains the first instance of a particular tonal bell cue—dark and relentlessly foreboding.

It works so well that Anderson opts to use it again in his later works, unconsciously creating a musical bridge between his first few films.  A couple Christmas songs litter the soundtrack in order to give us a sense of the film’s wintery setting (because we’re in the desert, we wouldn’t know it’s December otherwise).  Furthermore, an Aimee Mann song shows up in the end titles, which is notable because Mann would later become a very important collaborator for Anderson in his 1999 feature MAGNOLIA.

Of all the themes that Anderson continually explores throughout his career, the theme of the family unit is the most apparent in HARD EIGHT.  The characters have all adopted each other in some fashion, as they all seek the comfort of companionship in a cold world.  Sydney and John share a father/son relationship, while John takes the very literal step of inducting Clementine into his family by marrying her.

Sydney’s unconditional love and uncompromising generosity towards his young charges is revealed to come from a terrible secret that threatens to undo their union, thus the theme gives the film its stakes and driving force.  The tone is very similar to CIGARETTES & COFFEE, with the first scene of HARD EIGHT lifted nearly directly from the short.  Nonetheless, Anderson does a fantastic job expanding the scope and changing the focus of his story while creating a consistent tone.

While the process of production was relatively painless, Anderson’s experience in post-production was a hard lesson in the corporate obstinance of the studio system.  He was faced with a difficult distributor in Rysher Entertainment, who wanted him to change the film’s name from SYDNEY to HARD EIGHT out of a fear that people would mistake the film for being about the city in Australia.

Anderson begrudgingly acquiesced to their demands, but they weren’t about to stop there. Producer Robert Jones became a constant source of headache, refusing to give his consent for Anderson’s request to place the credits at the end of the film instead of the beginning (despite the rest of the cast and crew being fine with it).  When Jones and the studio balked at Anderson’s 150-minute director’s cut, the young auteur refused to make any cuts and was subsequently fired.  Rysher took the film away and re-cut it.

Anderson’s original vision was validated when HARD EIGHT was accepted into Cannes’ Un Certain Regard program—on the condition that his director’s cut was the version to be screened.  After the festival, Anderson’s cut was never seen again, and the finished film languished on the shelf for two years after Rysher suddenly (and unsurprisingly) went belly-up.  Given how much of a mess Anderson’s experience in post-production on HARD EIGHT was, it’s something of a miracle that his debut turned out as assured and confident as it did.

A dismissive attitude towards the film hasn’t stopped the home video market from reclaiming HARD EIGHT as a lost treasure.  Most cinephiles agree that it’s an underrated gem of a film, a work on par with any of Anderson’s best.  While it exists today as an outdated transfer on a bargain bin DVD, HARD EIGHT marks the humble starting point of one of our greatest contemporary auteurs.

Until somebody (come on, Criterion) comes along and releases the director’s cut, we’ll just have to content ourselves with a watered-down, abridged version that provides fleeting glimpses into a brilliant young filmmaker finding his footing.


BOOGIE NIGHTS (1997)

For most filmmakers, every one has that singular film that serves as a flashpoint in their own individual development; a film that lets them see the whole medium of cinema through new eyes, informing and shaping everything that comes after it. My flashpoint arrived in the winter of 2005—I had just moved to Boston to attend Emerson College, and my film watching experience was limited to whatever was new in theatres or at Blockbuster.

One night, my new roommates sat me down to watch a film by a director I had never of heard of before—Paul Thomas Anderson. The film? Anderson’s second feature:BOOGIE NIGHTS (1997). I was transfixed; riveted by the subtle layers and subtext unfolding before me in such rich, dynamic and new ways. BOOGIE NIGHTS is one of my favorite films of all time—a film that I return to time after time for inspiration and guidance.

Despite having previously made the well-received HARD EIGHT in 1996, BOOGIE NIGHTS became Anderson’s breakout force and announced him to the film community as a bold, new force to be reckoned with. The success of HARD EIGHT had enabled access to the executives at New Line Cinema, who wanted to help him make his follow-up.

With these powerful forces at his side, Anderson turned to his 1988 short, THE DIRK DIGGLER STORY, for inspiration in creating the backbone of a new story. He fleshed this little nugget out into a sprawling meditation on the San Fernando Valley’s pornography industry over two decades of success and upheaval.

BOOGIE NIGHTS begins amidst the glittering disco lights of 1977, before the specter of AIDS took away the notion of free love without consequences and spurred heavy government regulation on the porn industry. Eddie Adams (Mark Wahlberg) is a young high school dropout from Torrance who buses into his nightly job as a bar-back for a disco club out in Reseda.

Eddie is a quiet, unassuming boy, save for his hidden talent: an abnormally large penis, which he uses to generate extra income by masturbating in front of strangers for money. One night, he meets Jack Horner (Burt Reynolds), a director of exotic adult films who invites Eddie into his world with a friendly smile and a firm handshake. Eddie eagerly takes Horner up on his offer, quickly ingratiating himself into the larger-than-life world of pornography and finding a close-knit family in the group of collaborators that Horner has assembled around himself.

Eddie takes the stage name Dirk Diggler, and with his inherent natural talent and sexual prowess, soon takes the entire operation into the stratosphere. Diggler and company ride high through the remainder of the 70’s, but a murder/suicide committed in Jack’s house on New Year’s Eve 1979 welcomes the 80’s with a foreboding, bloody omen.

The dawn of a new decade also heralds the arrival of a new technology that promises to upend the industry as they know it: videotape. As video becomes more commonplace, Jack Horner and company find their artistic integrity compromised, and their personal lives significantly altered for the worse. As Dirk strays increasingly further from Jack’s clan, he risks destroying himself upon the very altar of his own success.

Despite dealing with such lurid subject matter, Anderson finds a peculiar kind of dignity and grace within his characters. He shows us that pornographers are people too—just as capable of real love as we are. Before BOOGIE NIGHTS, Wahlberg was “Marky Mark”, a young rapper with a few unimpressive film credits to his name, but the role of Dirk Diggler established him as a genuine acting force that persists to this day.

Reynolds is inspired casting as the patriarch of his little porno family/empire. Like John Travolta in Quentin Tarantino’sPULP FICTION (1994), Reynolds’ against-type performance resulted in a newfound cultural relevancy after a long spell of waning popularity, eventually culminating in an Oscar nomination for his performance. Ironically, Reynolds hated the role and didn’t get along with Anderson during filming. He even went so far as to fire his agent for recommending the role to him.

Julianne Moore counters the two-fisted machismo of Wahlberg and Reynolds as Amber Waves, Horner’s wife and a mother figure to Dirk. She’s heartbroken over her real son being taken away from her by child services, so she turns to Dirk for a surrogate relationship—one that becomes incestuously sexual. Moore turns in one of her most beautiful performances here as a conflicted, inherently sad woman with deep reservoirs of unconditional love, walking away with an Oscar nomination for her efforts.

BOOGIE NIGHTS also serves as an establishment of Anderson’s close-knit repertory of performers—actors who have come to regularly appear in his films throughout his career. These include Luis Guzman (as a nightclub owner and pornstar-wannabe), John C Reilly (as Dirk’s doggishly loyal friend and co-performer), William H Macy (as the disgruntled, cuckolded assistant director), Ricky Jay (as the droll cinematographer), and Philip Baker Hall (as Floyd Gondolli, a smug rival of Jack Horner’s who personifies the encroaching malevolence of videotape).

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On the female side, there’s Melora Walters as a sweet and naïve porn actress, and Heather Graham as the plucky, somewhat-ditzy Rollergirl. Further rounding out the cast is Don Cheadle as urban cowboy Buck Swope, Thomas Jane as cocky bad boy Todd Parker, and Bob Ridgley, who starred as Jack Horner in THE DIRK DIGGLER STORY and makes his last film appearance before his death here as The Colonel, an eccentric dandy who finances Jack’s films.

And last but not least, there’s Phillip Seymour Hoffman, Anderson’s closest acting collaborator who tragically passed away last week. He left behind an enduring legacy of masterful performances, one of which is found in BOOGIE NIGHTS’ Scotty J, a sexually confused and awkward boom operator who carries a one-sided torch for Dirk.

BOOGIE NIGHTS is the work of a young, ambitious filmmaker with bottomless reserves of zeal and talent. The tone is a distinctive blend of the multiple-perspective affectations of Robert Altman and the volatile, kinetic energy of Martin Scorsese. HARD EIGHT’s cinematographer, Robert Elswit, returns to shoot the film in the true anamorphic aspect ratio of 2.35:1 (achieved this time via actual anamorphic lenses and not a workaround like Anderson and Elswit had done previously).

Bob Ziembecki’s authentic period production design never reads as over-the-top and kitschy, instead popping from the frame in appropriate blasts of psychedelic color. The brilliant performances and Anderson’s bold narrative are aided by a constantly-moving camera that glides through the various scenes like an unstoppable rollercoaster. Even from an early age, Anderson has utilized the camera more confidently and audaciously than any of his peers, effortlessly mixing Steadicam, dolly, and handheld shots into a coherent whole.

Anderson’s use of the Steadicam in particular is worth noting, choosing to cover many of the scenes in long, traveling shots. The most notable of this is BOOGIE NIGHTS’ opening shot, which is, bar none, one of the best openings in recent film history. We start on a neon marquee flashing the film’s title, and then crane down to reveal a lively street scene that establishes both the setting and the time period.

Then, without skipping a beat, the camera operator steps off his platform on the crane and then enters Guzman’s nightclub as Anderson introduces us to all the major players of the story in one unbroken take, a la Altman’s iconic opening to THE PLAYER (1992). Of course, all this virtuoso camerawork wouldn’t be nearly as effective without editor Dylan Tichenor to stitch it all together. The film runs nearly three hours long, but if feels half that length thanks to Tichenor’s breathless pacing and exuberant sense of energy.

A major commercial selling point of BOOGIE NIGHTS was the music—specifically, the glut of 1970’s and 80’s pop hits that likely moved more copies of the soundtrack CD than the actual film itself. Anderson’s ear for music is spot-on, using several well-known cues in interesting ways that fill out the reality and authenticity of the period. The indulgence of the era is reflected in the glitzy needledrops, oftentimes creating an association between song and picture that becomes forever joined in the mind.

One instance of this is a scene where Alfred Molina’s drug dealer character sings along to Rick Springfield’s “Jessie’s Girl” during a particularly foreboding business exchange. It’s an unbearably tense sequence and a master-class in direction even without the music, but its inclusion transforms the scene into a truly transcendent moment.

For the score, Anderson recruits HARD EIGHT’s Michael Penn, who bases his musical palette around an inspired conceit—a carnival. The film opens against black with a somber dirge that sounds like a sad clown flailing around under the big top, a theme that reprises itself later on as a motif signifying Jack Horner’s little family unit.

The strange, carnivalesque nature of Penn’s score reflects Anderson’s bizarre, yet touching display of humanity while highlighting the hidden similarities between two decidedly different performance-based occupations.

Several of Anderson’s thematic preoccupations are present here, coalescing into an identifiable set of tropes. As a member of the first generation to come up under the rise of video, Anderson’s incorporation of the medium is more involved than any other filmmaker of his ilk.

In BOOGIE NIGHTS, the arrival of video is a major plot point, throwing the industry into a state of massive flux and becoming the fulcrum of conflict between Reynolds and Hall’s characters. Videotape highlights the characters as ideological opposites, fighting a war that pits economics vs. artistry—a conflict that can be argued to encapsulate the film industry as a whole.

To the characters of BOOGIE NIGHTS, video is a harbinger of doom and betrayal. Its arrival coincides with the fall of Dirk Diggler and Jack Horner, the fallout on their professional and personal lives being akin to a devastating meteor, or a nuclear bomb. BOOGIE NIGHTS shows remarkable prescience in its insights into video’s role in the video arts. We’re still having the film vs. video argument today, although now the two mediums are virtually indistinguishable from each other.

Because Anderson’s films very rarely have life or death stakes, the driving force and the emotional drama stems from the theme of family—specifically the threat of abandonment or loss. BOOGIE NIGHTS places this dynamic at the core of its story, presenting Horner’s filmmaking crew as a legitimate family, sharing in each other’s big life moments and cheering them on at weddings and awards shows.

Anderson also shows us how Dirk Diggler’s abandonment of his adopted family of pornographers leads to ruin. At the end of the day, he saves himself by crawling back in shame to Horner’s patriarch figure. In ending his story in this fashion, Anderson has created a prodigal son fable for the twentieth century. It’s a parable that illustrates the conceit that tragedy will ultimately befall those who choose to permanently turn away from family.

Anderson’s films often set their stories in his home state of California, and BOOGIE NIGHTS—perhaps more so than his other works—could not have taken place anywhere else but the Golden State. The San Fernando Valley, just north of Los Angeles, has served as the epicenter of the porn industry since its inception. Just like porn plays the redheaded, swept-under-the-rug stepchild to the Hollywood film industry, so too does the Valley sit offset from Los Angeles, stigmatized and dismissed because of its sleepy, suburban airs.

Like it or not, the porn industry is very much a part of southern California’s cultural heritage, so who better to paint its portrait than Anderson, the great cinematic recorder of California himself.

BOOGIE NIGHTS is also perhaps the most frank look at another of Anderson’s key recurring themes, that of sex dependence. HARD EIGHT and BOOGIE NIGHTS both flirt with sex as a paid profession: the former’s emotional tensions that stem from the troubles of Gwyneth Paltrow’s weary hooker Clementine contrasts with the latter’s celebration of sex on camera as an act of liberation and expression.

This also highlights a strange double standard when it comes to paid sex—the presence of the camera, for whatever reason, is the final arbiter between what is legal and what is not. The characters ofBOOGIE NIGHTS come to depend on their sexuality, as if it were a drug. Towards the end of the film, Dirk Diggler is back to where he started, reduced to jerking himself off in front of strangers for a couple bucks.

For others, like Cheadles’ Buck Swope, their past as porn stars hangs like a noose around their necks, impeding their progress in real world pursuits like starting a family or taking out a business loan.

BOOGIE NIGHTS caused quite a stir when it released, with high praise for prestigious film festivals like Toronto and New York leading to three Oscar nominations (one of which was a Screenplay nod for Anderson himself). The film was a breakout hit, its success arguably fueled by a bout of 70’s nostalgia that was pervading pop culture at the time. Thankfully, BOOGIE NIGHTS’ legacy has outshined the trends of it day, enduring to become one of the best films of its decade and ensuring Anderson’s future as a major new talent on the scene.


MUSIC VIDEOS & SHORTS WORKS (1997-1999)

During the period between the release of his breakout feature BOOGIE NIGHTS (1997) and his sprawling follow-upMAGNOLIA (1999), director Paul Thomas Anderson branched out into other forms of cinematic expression.  He did what many filmmakers do between features to pay the bills: shoot commercials and music videos.

However, unlike other directors, it can be argued that he wasn’t exactly doing for-hire work.  Almost all of his short-form work from these years can be tracked to some kind of investment in his feature work or his personal life.

MICHAEL PENN: “TRY”

For instance, his first music video was made for BOOGIE NIGHTS composer Michael Penn to promote his single “TRY”.  The video was shot almost entirely in secret, with Anderson, Penn, and co-producer JoAnne Sellar stealing away during BOOGIE NIGHTS postproduction for a couple hours.  They shot in what is allegedly the longest hallway in America, located in downtown Los Angeles.  The video follows Penn in one long Steadicam take as he sings to camera and marches through various vignettes.

The piece is indicative of Anderson’s mastery of the camera and sense of movement, as well as his confidence with a Steadicam rig.  Complex moves are pulled off with a dance-like grace that makes the entire piece look effortless.  Anderson is known to be somewhat of a mischievous director, and “TRY” follows suit with a cameo by his close friend and collaborator, the late Phillip Seymour Hoffman, as a slobby sound recordist.

FIONA APPLE: “ACROSS THE UNIVERSE”

The success of BOOGIE NIGHTS led Anderson into an echelon of celebrity that was previously unknown to him.  He started dating singer/songwriter Fiona Apple, a relationship that birthed a small run of enchanting music videos.  The first of these was for Apple’s cover of the Beatles’ “ACROSS THE UNIVERSE”, a track commissioned for director Gary Ross’ film PLEASANTVILLE (1998).

Anderson adopted PLEASANTVILLE’s black and white midcentury aesthetic for his video, albeit with a twist.  Conceived as a series of long takes, Apple sings to camera while hooligans in letterman jackets trash a diner in slow-motion around her.

“ACROSS THE UNIVERSE” is a deceptively simple piece, with expertly-executed camera movements that give no trace of the complicated rigging and blocking required to achieve such shots.  For instance, in the opening shot we track in directly on Apple, but we don’t see the camera in the mirror behind her (when common logic dictates we should).

The piece is filled with little “how’d they do that” flourishes like this, and like Michael Penn’s “TRY” before it, includes a cameo from one of Anderson’s repertory performers in the form of John C. Reilly as a suit stealing music from the jukebox.

FLAGPOLE SPECIAL

For 1998’s RET Inevitable 1 Festival in New York, Anderson was commissioned to make a seventeen minute short titled FLAGPOLE SPECIAL.  The short apparently works as an indirect groundlaying for the Frank TJ Mackey character played by Tom Cruise in Anderson’s MAGNOLIA.

Based on a random conversation Anderson found on an old audiotape, FLAGPOLE SPECIAL was shot on digital video and features John C Reilly and Chris Penn riffing on their frustration with women and coming up with plans on how they would “Seduce and Destroy” them.  As of this writing, it is publicly unavailable for viewing.

FIONA APPLE: “FAST AS YOU CAN”

In 1999, Anderson made his second music video for Fiona Apple, for her song “FAST AS YOU CAN”.  It’s a much simpler piece, with Fiona performing straight to camera, locked into very precise compositions.  While the video is straightforward and uncomplicated, Anderson does add various visual obstructions to the frame, like smudges and smears on the lens in a bid to make things a little more interesting.

FIONA APPLE: “LIMP”

Anderson’s third video for Apple covered her song, “LIMP”, and takes place in a dark mansion as a lovesick Apple roams the house, unable to sleep.  The piece is full of the graceful, fluid camerawork that Anderson is known for, but he counters the elegance by chopping it up into a series of staccato, rapid-fire edits as the song’s intensity builds.


 MAGNOLIA (1999)

During my senior year of high school, I spent a grand majority of my time in the halls of the campus’ performing arts center. The eclectic mix of creativity and awkward hormonal clashes was endlessly fascinating to me, no doubt because it reflected what was churning inside of me. Within the rigid and confining social structures of high school, it was the one place I could go where I could truly be myself.

Towards the end of my time there, the more literary-minded and illuminated types began talking earnestly about their love for this 1999 film called MAGNOLIA—I film I had never heard of. I even acted in a one-act play whose author made no attempt to hide how much it had been influenced by the film.

I never got around to seeing the film myself until my first semester at Emerson College, where I was introduced to director Paul Thomas Anderson’s work by way of BOOGIE NIGHTS (1997). When I finally sat down to watch MAGNOLIA, it became immediately apparent to me that I was watching a masterwork from a highly confident director who was wielding his camera with a degree of energy and power unlike anything I had ever seen before.

The runaway success of BOOGIE NIGHTS resulted in New Line Cinema gifting Anderson the opportunity to do anything he wanted as his next project. Knowing he’d never again be in this enviable position, Anderson decided to go for broke and make a passion project that he described as the All-Time Great San Fernando Valley film. In plotting out his story, Anderson tapped into great reservoirs of creativity and inspiration.

What started off as a small, off-beat character piece soon blossomed into an all-encompassing statement on loneliness, regret, and chance in a small patch of suburb just north of bustling Los Angeles. MAGNOLIA sees Anderson step ever more firmly into Robert Altman territory by weaving together several disparate threads and slowly pulling them taut to reveal a tightly-woven tapestry of life, love and loss.

Simply put, it is the magnum opus of the first phase of Anderson’s career, capping off a long fascination with sprawling ensemble-based stories.

The central conceit of MAGNOLIA is that the film’s story unfolds along a stretch of the titular street, located in the San Fernando Valley—purportedly all within a span of a few square miles. The idea is to communicate the range of humanity that can occur in such a small amount of space, and how we’re more connected than we think. At the center of the film is an awkward romance between Claudia Gator (Melora Walters), a nervous wreck of a woman who’s been hollowed out by excessive drug use and several emotional trauma.

After playing her music so loudly that the neighbors call the cops, she’s visited by John C Reilly’s Officer Jim Kurring—a gentle giant who finds in Claudia a beacon of hope and a potential cure for his romantic ailments. Claudia’s father, venerated game show host Jimmy Gator (Phillip Baker Hall), also tries to reach her, struggling to find some redemption from the sins of his past as he loses a fight with cancer.

A short distance away, Donnie Smith (William H. Macy), a former child genius and famous contestant on Gator’s game show, is struggling to hold on to his job at a local furniture outlet so he can pay for braces he doesn’t need, all to impress a male bartender that’s caught his eye.

As all of this is going down, an old man named Earl Partridge (Jason Robards) lies on his deathbed, attended to by his nurse Phil Parma (Phillip Seymour Hoffman). Earl’s wife Linda (Julianne Moore) storms about town trying to make her own wrongs right in the wake of the realization that only now has she come to actually love her husband.

And last but not least, there’s Frank TJ Mackey (Tom Cruise), Earl’s estranged son and a chauvinistic pick-up guru/artist hawking an allegedly “foolproof” seduction technique, bound for an emotional reckoning of his own.

As MAGNOLIA unfolds, all these story threads draw closer together; the major events rippling like waves through the narrative. Destiny has intertwined their fates. MAGNOLIA explores ideas about chance and coincidence, comparing them against a larger, pre-determined arc of the universe. In a move that’s both inspired and utterly baffling, Anderson uses a counterintuitive image to state his case: a random, inexplicable downpour of frogs, materializing as if from nowhere and hurtling towards the earth with biblical fury.

The film goes to great pains to suggest that these seemingly random events might just be the opposite, and that our fates may indeed by pre-ordained and unforeseeable as a sudden hailstorm of amphibians.

While an expanded budget allows for higher-profile actors, Anderson culled his cast mostly from his pool of BOOGIE NIGHTS alumni. Reilly, Walters, Hall, Macy, Hoffman and Moore all deliver some of their best work, thanks to an unwavering dedication to Anderson’s vision and an eagerness to play against type.

MAGNOLIA is perhaps the most definitive example of Anderson’s company of actors, featuring supporting performances from Luis Guzman as an irritable and impatient contestant on Jimmy Gator’s game show, Ricky Jay as the show’s producer and the omniscient narrator during the film’s prologue and epilogue sequences, Alfred Molina as Macy’s Persian furniture store boss, and even Thomas Jane as a young Jimmy Gator.

Of the new talent, Robards gives a heartbreaking performance in his final film role as a man besieged by regret at the end of his life, and Cruise was nominated for an Oscar in what is generally considered a career-best performance as the scene-stealing chauvinist who uses bravado and machismo to bury his crippling daddy issues. MAGNOLIA is the kind of film that lives or dies off of its performances, and thankfully the collective efforts of Anderson’s brilliantly-chosen cast helps the piece soar to exhilarating heights.

MAGNOLIA is not as visually stylized as Anderson’s previous work, but he still manages to achieve a larger-than-life feel thanks to returning cinematographer Robert Elswit’s virtuoso camerawork. The film’s aesthetic is textbook Anderson: a 2.35:1 anamorphic frame given vigor and color by a mix of confidently executed dolly, crane, Steadicam, and handheld compositions.

Like BOOGIE NIGHTS before it, MAGNOLIA uses long tracking shots to convey space and time, pulling its characters along their cosmic journeys. Elswit and Anderson find the opportunity to experiment with different film stocks and cameras in MAGNOLIA’s bookending “chance or fate” sequences—a highlight being Anderson’s use of an authentic, hand-cranked Pathe camera to simulate the look of old silent pictures.

With MAGNOLIA, Anderson’s regular editor Dylan Tichenor has his work cut out for him in keeping track of all these disparate story threads. If Sergei Eisenstein’s montage theory established how editing could be used to tie two separate events into continuous time and space together, then Tichenor’s work on MAGNOLIA serves as the arguable evolution—interweaving the sweeping emotions of human experience into a cosmic tapestry.

Anderson and Tichenor’s edit plays like the film equivalent of a symphony, with harmonies and choruses organized into distinct movements. The movements themselves are distinguished via an inspired intertitle conceit that, instead of conveying the passage of time, notates changes in weather and humidity. It’s an interesting idea that we’ll certainly never the likes of again, further evidencing Anderson’s unique worldview.

MAGNOLIA is the first of Anderson’s features to not feature the work of composer Michael Penn, but he does retain musical continuity in Jon Brion and Penn’s wife, Aimee Mann. Brion’s score in particular is worth singling out, as he has created a brooding suite of orchestral cues that are at once both foreboding and elegiac, giving the necessary weight to the burden that Anderson’s characters must carry.

The score ducks and weaves through the piece, oftentimes playing against or running under diagetic source tracks from Mann and Supertramp. The effect is disharmonious, but in a good way, further solidifying the film’s mosaic conceits. Mann is a huge vocal identity within the soundtrack, providing several key songs such as the showstopping “Wise Up”. The song is incorporated in a strikingly original way, playing over a sequence in which the characters sing along to it, staged within their various individual vignettes.

The result is nothing less than one of the most unexpected and memorable moments in recent film history.

The medium of video plays a huge role in shaping Anderson’s worldview, like it does for several of filmmakers in his generation. However, his treatment of the format undergoes something of an evolution throughout his filmography. In BOOGIE NIGHTS, video was a disruptive, transgressive advancement that held malevolent implications for its characters.

By the present-day narrative of MAGNOLIA, video had become commonplace and commodified. Its power harnessed by people like Frank TJ Mackey as a sales tool— a slick, well-lit means to nefarious ends.

Mackey’s “Seduce And Destroy” operation is indicative of another of Anderson’s thematic fascinations, that of sex dependence. Mackey employs a tactical, scorched earth approach to seduction, viewing women purely as targets to be eliminated with the ballistics rocket below his belt. As his character arc plays out, it becomes quite clear that this militaristic, highly-disciplined and aggressive approach to sex is a crutch he leans on, a shovel to bury deep-seated rage about his past and his family.

Indeed, several of MAGNOLIA’s characters’ dramatic troubles stem from sex in some manner—Reilly and Walters’ fumbling romance, Robards’ abandonment of the love of his life for a fleeting affair, or Hall’s continuing infidelity and the implied sexual abuse of his daughter. MAGNOLIA’s thematic exploration of sex dependence overlaps with his exploration of family dynamics, digging deep into his characters’ insecurities and faults to find an inherent desire for the comfort of home and family.

Like any wildly ambitious film, people didn’t quite know what to make of MAGNOLIA when it was released. The film didn’t do well at the box office, but critics hailed it as a profound expansion of Anderson’s directorial skill. People were just as quick to deem it a masterpiece as they were to deride it as an overindulgent failure. Regardless, MAGNOLIA went on to considerable awards seasons success, winning the prestigious Golden Bear award at that year’s Berlinale as well as an Academy Award nod for Anderson’s screenplay.

Now that over ten years has passed, MAGNOLIA’s legacy as one of the 90’s best films is assured. It is an undeniable technical triumph, and a product of a confident virtuoso aesthetic that, for all its complications and flourishes, never loses sight of the big picture.


MUSIC VIDEOS & TV WORK (1999-2000)

With the release of 1999’s MAGNOLIA, director Paul Thomas Anderson had arguably reached the peak of what he could do with his particular stylistic conceits. As he developed ideas for his next feature project, Anderson dove right back into the world of music videos and short-form work as a way to keep his directorial skills active and engaged.

AIMEE MAN: “SAVE ME” (1999)

Like the music video for Michael Penn’s “TRY” following BOOGIE NIGHTS in 1997, Anderson created a tie-in music video for one of MAGNOLIA’s musical muse, Aimee Mann. The track, “SAVE ME”, appears during the closing scene of MAGNOLIA, and was written specifically for the film. To reflect his, Anderson and Mann settled on an idea that would recreate key moments from MAGNOLIA in motionless tableau form, while integrating Mann singing towards camera in the background.

Anderson’s fingerprints are all over this video, with a camera that continuously dollies forward on Mann with a creeping confidence. He also throws in a little visual variety by way of moving the furniture and set dressing around in elegant, almost impossible ways that reveal the hidden artifice of each vignette. “SAVE ME” is a simple, yet moving little music video—and arguably Anderson’s most popular.

FIONA APPLE: PAPER BAG (2000)

The turn of the millenium found Anderson and then-girlfriend Fiona Apple collaborating on a music video once again, this time for her song “PAPER BAG”. The video finds Apple performing at a bar inside of an expansive lobby, surrounded by little boys dressed as grown men. Anderson shoots wide to feature the location’s beautiful architecture, as well as to showcase elaborate old-school musical choreography.

The piece is again an instance of Anderson’s elegant camerawork, incorporating the same whip-pan technique that he made a motif of in MAGNOLIA.

SNL: “FANATIC” (2000)

By the year 2000, Anderson’s work began to shift away from the sprawling, dynamic style that had made his name and towards experimental explorations into comedy and other genres. The first of such projects was done almost as a lark– less of a serious, cerebral project and more of a fun diversion for him and his friends at Saturday Night Live. The piece is a spoof on MTV’s show “FANATIC”, where a mega-fan gets the chance to meet his/her object of worship.

Anderson recruits SNL cast member Jimmy Fallon as “Fanatic’s” overly-aggro host, who tracks down Anna Nicole Smith’s biggest fan (played brilliantly by Ben Affleck in a role that lets him eschew his romantic leading man persona and ham it up with a false set of horrible teeth and giant braces). While Anderson’s “Fanatic” is undoubtedly a fun little side-project, in an oblique way it still fits naturally amidst his larger body of work.

The handheld video format and the reality TV conceit echoes THE DIRK DIGGLER STORY’s presentation and comedic tone, while Affleck’s quest to make Anna Nicole Smith his mother echoes Anderson’s thematic explorations of family and the search for home.

THE JON BRION SHOW (2000)

During this time, Anderson’s regular composer Jon Brion was trying to launch a new music-oriented variety show, appropriately titled THE JON BRION SHOW. Brion was unsuccessful in finding a home for the show at VH1, so Anderson stepped in to finance and direct a new pilot. While three episodes were produced in total, only the one featuring the late Elliot Smith has been made publicly available.

THE JON BRION SHOW follows a pretty standard, generic variety show format, utilizing multiple video cameras to cover Brion as he guides us through the evening’s playlist. The piece is a very rough, yet fascinating look into Anderson’s interests outside of just filmmaking, as well as a nostalgic little time capsule of a very particular sound that flourished during the turn of the millennium.

While Anderson’s output during these years is relatively small, he was able to capitalize on the popularity afforded to him byMAGNOLIA’s modest success with a string of experimental works that allowed him to broaden his scope and expand his aesthetic.


PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE (2002)

By 2002, director Paul Thomas Anderson had gained a reputation for long, sprawling features with multiple points of view. He had arguably reached his personal apex with this style in 1999’s MAGNOLIA, and began feeling a desire to subvert his critics and move away from the types of films that had made his name. During interviews, Anderson began to vocally express his wish to make a short romantic comedy with Adam Sandler—a wish that was laughed off by most critics who knew of his mischievous nature.

So imagine their surprise when he actually follows through on his promise with 2002’s PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE, an off-the-rails romantic comedy inspired by the real-life story of a California man who exploited a loophole in a Healthy Choice/frequent-flyer promotion for personal gain.

On paper, a rabidly quirky Adam Sandler vehicle directed by an arthouse auteur would read as a surefire failure, but Anderson’s fourth feature finds him feeding off the energy of a particularly experimental phase, making for the shortest, most idiosyncratic (but also the most charming) film of his career.

PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE follows Sandler’s Barry Egan, a neurotic entrepreneur of novelty hotel plungers and a man prone to volatile emotional outbursts and crippling anxiety. Despite being surrounded by seven overbearing and suffocating sisters, Barry is a profoundly lonely man who takes a simple pleasure in running a modestly successful business.

One night, a misplaced yearning for human connection leads Barry to dial up a phone sex line, inadvertently exposing himself to a ruthless extortion scheme that thrives off the guilt of so-called “perverts” like himself. As he battles with fraud, he’s introduced to the calm yin to his powderkeg yang: a pretty Englishwoman named Lena (Emily Watson). She’s socially awkward like he is, and their off-kilter chemistry brings out an adventurous side to each other that they never knew they had.

On top of all this, Barry has also stumbled upon a loophole in a frequent-flyer promotion run by Healthy Choice that nets him an insane amount of airline miles at the cost of several pudding packs. Emboldened by his newfound love towards Lena and flailing rage at his fraudulent tormentors, Barry sets about collecting as many pudding packs as he can to rack up miles and take control of his life.

Sandler, one of the most polarizing figures in Hollywood, is rightfully vilified for his dumb, juvenile slapstick comedies. To the complete surprise of the stuffy film elite, Sandler’s performance in PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE turned out to be one of 2002’s best—his conveyance of a dark, complicated soul is routinely hailed as his finest hour.

Watson’s casting is equally inspired, her gentle eccentricities becoming the perfect foil to Sandler’s tenuous grasp on his temper. The reliable stock company of actors that Anderson had cultivated in his previous three features is largely absent from PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE, save for the late, brilliant Philip Seymour Hoffman as the cocky sex-line extortionist and Luis Guzman as Barry’s loyal, if somewhat dimwitted, business partner.

Much like the title suggests, PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE is a strange brew of discordant influences and tones, taking conventional rom-com tropes and filtering them through Anderson’s unique worldview. Cinematographer Robert Elswit returns to lend some visual consistency to an otherwise-radically different project for the director.

The pair continues their use of the anamorphic 2.35:1 aspect ratio, as well as dynamic Steadicam camerawork and bold, deliberate compositions. Anderson also builds upon his core aesthetic with several expressionistic visual abstractions, like unmotivated lens flares, harsh highlights, silhouettes, and animated watercolor-painting interludes courtesy of video artist Jeremy Blake.

Production Designer William Arnold also returns, creating a bright, yet drab, every-world for the characters to inhabit. Arnold utilizes a red, white, and blue color palette to convey Anderson’s curious vision. A film’s color palette should be an active participant in telling the story, and Arnold’s work accomplishes it with a minimum of fuss.

The white, colorless walls of Barry’s apartment and warehouse suggest a bland, directionless existence, so when Barry shows up in a bright blue/indigo suit, the act is indicative of Barry opening himself up to the potential of excitement and change. Watson’s Lena appears primarily in a bright red dress, nicely complementing Barry’s own wardrobe with the color of passion—a passion that will fully consume Barry and give him the necessary courage to overcome his obstacles.

Anderson’s musical choices also mark a direct shift away from his past work while still maintaining a degree of continuity. He retains the services of composer Jon Brion, who utilizes the distinctive sound of the harmonium to create a discordant electronic sound that bubbles furiously and echoes Barry’s severe internal stress. Indeed, watching PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE can be a very stressful watching experience, mainly due to Brion’s jittery, unrelenting score.

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Instead of the wall-to-wall jukebox approach that Anderson employed in his previous films, Anderson employs a much more disciplined approach to his needledrops. He limits them to just one: Harry Nillson’s “He Needs Me”, a rather strange little ballad that captures Anderson’s darkly whimsical tone and becomes the de facto theme song to the piece. PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE is the end of an era for Anderson, with the film being his last collaboration with Brion (as of this writing).

In Anderson’s subsequent hiatus from filmmaking during mid-2000’s, Brion became one of the unfortunate casualties of the director’s artistic reinvention. I don’t imagine that this could be attributed to bad blood between the two, but rather an amicable parting of ways as the result of Anderson’s evolution of style requiring a sound far different than what Brion could deliver.

Despite creating such a radical stylistic experiment for himself, Anderson can’t help but incorporate his major thematic fascinations into PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE’s story. The film is fundamentally a love story, and love stories are fundamentally about the search for a mate—- with the creation of a family being the larger implication. Barry’s search for a mate, personified in Lena, is a way for him to escape his own family of seven emasculating sisters and become the head of a new one.

PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE’s love story also serves as a convenient conduit for Anderson to explore ideas toward sexuality by way of Barry’s varied responses to his newfound feelings. He confuses sex for love, initially trying to alleviate his loneliness in the companionship of a phone-sex line girl. Their conversation is hollow and transactional despite being laced with aggressively sexual dirty talk.

Contrast that withBarry’s wooing of Lena, a dynamic that is almost child-like in its innocence while simultaneously providing a profound, intimate connection and a foundation for love to flourish. Anderson’s love of California iconography and culture is also present, albeit in a subdued form that accurately conveys the colorless palette of the San Fernando Valley’s suburban/industrial outskirts.

A distinct step away from the kind of films people loved him for, PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE was a bold gamble for Anderson—a gamble that ultimately paid off when critics hailed Sandler’s performance as one of the best of the year and awarding Anderson himself with the Best Director prize at the Cannes Film Festival. While not his best-known film, PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE has attained a cult following that’s kept it within cinema’s collective consciousness.

It may be minor in terms of impact and scale, but PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE is a major shift towards a new phase of Anderson’s career and in-depth character studies that continue to this day.


ANDERSON’S SHORT WORKS (2002-2006)

After the release of 2002’s PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE, director Paul Thomas Anderson embarked on a little hiatus from feature filmmaking that would last for five years. While he decided on what he wanted to develop as his next project, he took on several small-scale projects to keep his skills sharp and his creativity active.

BLOSSOMS & BLOOD (2002)

Several of Anderson’s works from this period are conceptually supplemental to PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE and his collaboration with Adam Sandler. When tasked to find a purpose for his feature’s deleted material, Anderson decided to forego the conventional route of including them as DVD bonus content.

Instead, he whipped several of his leftover elements into a self-contained mood piece called BLOSSOMS & BLOOD. The piece is an artfully-blended mash of deleted scenes, video artist Jeremy Blake’s animated paintings, and the music video for composer Jon Brion’s single “Here We Go”. BLOSSOMS & BLOOD utilizes flares of color and light, as well as a disorienting, experimental sound mix to reflect the abstractly-whimsical tone of PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE.

Freed from the demands of feature-length storytelling, Anderson is able to crank this particular aesthetic into overdrive, giving us a glimpse into Barry Egan’s inner madness and rapture.

MATTRESS MAN (2002)

The production of PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE spurred another set of works for Anderson, and while they are tangentially influenced by the feature, they aren’t as directly intertwined with it as BLOSSOMS & BLOOD is. In 2002, the internet was just beginning to take off as a forum for short-form video exhibition.

Anderson, perhaps consciously or not, took advantage of this nascent technology by releasing a trio of very small sketches based around a singular, slap-sticky joke.

The first, MATTRESS MAN, sees the late Philip Seymour Hoffman reprise his sleazeball character from PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE filming a commercial for his mattress retail business. The piece is filmed in analog video to emulate the homegrown, lo-fi nature of regional retailer commercials.

Aside from being hilariously entertaining in the span of a single minute,MATTRESS MAN is valuable within Anderson’s body of work in that it continues his exploration of video as a medium. Whereas MAGNOLIA’s (1999) Frank TJ Mackey character employed slick, well-lit video to sell his “Seduce & Destroy” technique, MATTRESS MAN shows us how in a different set of hands, video can come off as inept and clumsy.

BALLCHEWER (2002)

The second piece from this period is BALLCHEWER, which also appears to have been shot during the production ofPUNCH-DRUNK LOVE. It features Anderson regular Luis Guzman and PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE’s Emily Watson interacting with a pitbull. Curiously, this piece looks to have been shot on film in Anderson’s signature anamorphic aspect ratio, leading one to believe it might have been shot on a lark at the end of one of the feature’s shooting days.

The punchline toBALLCHEWER is oblique and a little muddy, making it the weakest of the trio.

COUCH (2002)

The third and final film of the trio, COUCH, continues Anderson’s collaboration with Adam Sandler, who plays a man trying out new furniture at his own peril. The piece is shot in black and white, and told mostly in silence except for exaggerated sound effects.

None of Sandler’s restraint or nuance from PUNCH-DRUNK-LOVE is present here. Instead, Anderson lets Sandler go full-on clown mode, creating a dynamic that feels distinctly out of place with Anderson’s aesthetic. Together, these three sketches form a triptych exploring the fine line between lowbrow slapstick and highbrow art—a conceptual investigation whose promise Anderson ultimately mined better in PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE.

DEMO JAIL (2006)

Anderson was largely absent from the scene during 2003-2005. His first child (with comedienne Maya Rudolph) was born in 2005, and the same year he served as the standby director on A PRAIRIE HOME COMPANION, directed by his hero Robert Altman (who was ailing in health and was obligated to hire someone to replace him in the event of his death for insurance purposes).

Needless to say, big things were happening in his life that necessitated a short break from his career.  By 2006, Anderson’s productivity began picking back up, beginning with a short sketch he directed for (the short-lived) THE SHOWBIZ SHOW WITH DAVID SPADE called DEMO JAIL.

The piece riffs on an old joke within the entertainment industry—that of the wanna-be who forces his awful demo on an established and successful friend. David Spade naturally plays the successful friend, who is trapped inside his intern’s car and forced to listen to the same terrible song again and again.

Shot on video, the sketch itself isn’t particularly good, with nothing in its execution to suggest Anderson’s hand. All in all, it’s rather forgettable, but it does serve as a warning shot for Anderson’s career comeback the following year with his staggering epic, THERE WILL BE BLOOD.


THERE WILL BE BLOOD (2007)

The year 2007 was a very special year in cinema for me. On a personal level, it marked the tenth anniversary of my own first short films, an occasion I celebrated with a limited engagement of a feature I co-directed at a local Portland arthouse theatre.

On a wider scale, 2007 saw the release of three of my favorite films of all time (NO COUNTRY FOR OLD MENZODIAC, and THERE WILL BE BLOOD), by three of my favorite directors (The Coen Brothers, David Fincher, and Paul Thomas Anderson respectively). Now that we’re some years removed, these three films are generally considered to be among the very best films of that decade.

Watching these films was a religious experience for me; I could only imagine that this was what it must’ve felt like to take in the first screenings of films from the French New Wave of the 60’s or the American crime dramas of the 70’s.

It was the height of a very special time in cinema, where visionary auteurs found homes for their passion projects in specialty studio shingles like Focus Features or Fox Searchlight. The aforementioned three films represented the apex of this movement, and were the culmination of an unsustainable model that would cause the whole house of cards to come toppling down only a year later (an implosion I would unwittingly experience firsthand during my internship at Warner Independent Pictures).

Out of these three pictures, THERE WILL BE BLOOD cut through to affect me on the most fundamental level. My initial impression of the film was that it was a staggering achievement—I walked away convinced I had seen the modern equivalent of CITIZEN KANE (1941), and that a new contender for “best film of all time” had just been christened.

Time has softened my hyperbole, but my conviction remains—THERE WILL BE BLOOD will stand the test of time as one of the greatest films ever made. THERE WILL BE BLOOD’s conception was something of an unexpected lark. After the release of 2002’s PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE, director Paul Thomas Anderson was out of the public eye for five years, undergoing lots of personal and artistic growth, building his family, and finding inspiration from unlikely places as fan anticipation for his next project grew to a fever pitch.

While experiencing a bout of homesickness during a trip to London, Anderson purchased a copy of Upton Sinclar’s novel “Oil!”, mainly because he liked the image of California oil fields on its cover. Transfixed by the novel’s cinematic potential, he began pulling further inspiration from the biography of real-life California oil tycoon Edward Doheny and John Huston’s classic 1948 film THE TREASURE OF SIERRA MADRE (which he watched nightly).

He gave his project the lurid title THERE WILL BE BLOOD, constructing it as his own version of the great American epic—a grand statement on capitalism and the perversion of all-consuming ambition, embodied by one of the most original and compelling antiheroes in cinematic history.

In turn of the century Bakersfield, California, ruthless oil tycoon Daniel Plainview (Daniel Day-Lewis in a career-defining, Oscar-winning performance) is very rapidly accumulating wealth from his growing oil enterprise. Along with his adopted son HW Plainview and business partner Fletcher (Ciaran Hinds), Plainview negotiates the purchase of the Sunday Family homestead, located in the barren deserts of a village called Little Boston.

Unbeknownst to the Sundays, the land has an ocean of oil underneath it, just waiting to be drilled by Plainview and his cohorts. His supremely profitable enterprise brings unprecedented growth and prosperity to the inhabitants of Little Boston, turning it into an overnight boomtown.

However, success has its dark side, which Plainview learns as he grapples with Sunday’s son, Eli (Paul Dano)—an aspiring evangelical preacher who extorts Plainview into building a church for him and his flock. The two viciously lock horns in a battle that pits capitalism against theocracy for the soul of Little Boston.

Anderson has painted in THERE WILL BE BLOOD a dark portrait of greed, corruption and power that forces us to confront the ugliest aspects of our American ideals. Day-Lewis’s portrayal of blackhearted Daniel Plainview possesses shades of Bill The Butcher from Martin Scorsese’s GANGS OF NEW YORK (2002), only more intelligent and sophisticated in both temperament and taste.

He simply looms larger than life, and in the process becomes a legendary screen villains on par with Bela Lugosi’s Count Dracula or Heath Ledger’s Joker. As Plainview’s ideological foil Eli Sunday, Dano could have very easily been overshadowed by his co-star’s scene-shredding gravitas.

Fortunately, Dano more than holds his own with an amazing performance as a vain, manipulative so-called Man of God whose intentions are just as slimy as the “devil” he endeavors to destroy. THERE WILL BE BLOOD focuses mainly on the duel between these two unconventional titans, thus eliminating the need for Anderson to recruit any of the members of his personal acting company. Working with a suite of fresh new faces, Anderson’s focus is invigorated.

Despite the changing of the guard in front of the camera, Anderson still relies on most of his usual technical collaborators: producers Daniel Lupi and JoAnne Sellar, editor Dylan Tichenor, and cinematographer Robert Elswit who won the second of the film’s two Oscars for his stunning work.

Anderson’s preferred 2.35:1 aspect ratio is perfectly suited to capture the dusty, earth-toned vistas and sweeping, confident camera moves. While Anderson’s visual language doesn’t change physically, the dynamic of its intentions has.

Elaborate camera moves project a grand scale that evokes the work of John Ford and John Huston and lends the picture an overall air of myth. The grandeur is almost overwhelming, and would risk coming off as supremely pretentious in the hands of a less-capable director. Thankfully, Anderson’s confidence and mastery of his craft assures the tone attains the right balance of gravitas.

Anderson scores a new collaborator in production designer Jack Fisk, who had already become a legend in his field for his work on Terrence Malick’s films. With THERE WILL BE BLOOD, Fisk does what he does best: bringing an authentic, lived-in period vibe designed to place us firmly in the time and place of the story. Fisk’s attention to detail is truly incredible—everything falls within Anderson and Elswit’s established color palette, and nothing rings as false or out of place.

Anderson’s reinvention of his visual aesthetic extends to the music, where he finds an inspired, creative refreshment in his collaboration with Radiohead guitarist Johnny Greenwood. The music in Anderson’s films have always erred on the side of quirky, but in THERE WILL BE BLOOD the musical character shifts from Jon Brion’s curiously endearing compositions to something more classical and avant-garde.

Greenwood uses harrowing, discordant strings to pervert the conventional orchestral sound into a droning echo of Anderson’s portrait of brutal capitalism. Anderson supplements Greenwood’s compositions with classical source cues like Arvo Parte’s Fratres suite or Brahm’s Violin Concerto in D Major, creating a distinctly Kubrick-ian vibe.

At the center of the film is a tense dynamic between Plainview and his adopted son HW, a precocious and intelligent little boy whose increasing rebelliousness earns him a one-way ticket to an expensive boarding school far away. The elder Plainview is too consumed by his drilling operation to properly raise his son, and in the process inadvertently turns his little business partner into a competitor.

Anderson’s career-long exploration of family dynamics takes a left turn in order to reflect Plainview’s empty soul. Plainview uses HW to project the appearance of an affable family man, even as he takes over people’s land and robs them of their potential fortunes.

In eschewing a conventional plotline or story-arc, the emotional climax ofTHERE WILL BE BLOOD hinges on this tension between Plainview and HW, which comes to a head when HW is a grown man and expresses a desire to move to Mexico with his wife and start an oil company of his own.

Plainview sees this as an act of betrayal and rejects HW as his heir while revealing his true lineage. It’s a pitiful power play that affords Plainview a temporary, petty victory, but it’s clear to the audience that he’s damned himself to a short-lived future of loneliness and regret.

In Anderson’s eyes, tragedy ultimately befalls those who choose to permanently turn away from family. Plainview’s ultimate tragedy is that for all the material wealth he could accumulate, he would always be emotionally and ideologically bankrupt and didn’t have the wherewithal to recognize it.

Anderson’s other thematic fascinations are present in THERE WILL BE BLOOD, albeit in surprising ways. His stories and characters are inherently Californian in nature, meaning that they always reflect some aspect of the Golden State’s rich cultural heritage.

The oil boom that fueled the rise of cities like Los Angeles is depicted here during its infancy (however, the film was shot, ironically, far away from California in Malta, Texas). The fields of steadily-rocking oil derricks profoundly shaped California’s geography and culture, and one need only to look at the expansive oil fields of LA’S Baldwin Hills to see that oil continues to drive California’s economy to this day.

THERE WILL BE BLOOD’s true genius is in its understated relevancy to our modern age, and how our actions can reverberate over the course of a century. Despite all of our technological advances and progress as a society, we’re still down there in the muck, bludgeoning our way to prosperity.

Anderson’s filmography is greatly interested in sexuality and the human dependency on it. THERE WILL BE BLOOD is notable in this regard for its curious omission of all sexuality. Plainview is driven purely by greed, and hasn’t the slightest care of what other people think of him, much less the opposite sex.

Even the process of obtaining a son comes to him by way of something resembling more of a business transaction than the result of a sexual act. The absence of Plainview’s sexuality in itself is a profound comment on the intricate relationship between ambition and sexual longing, and how non-sexual pursuits like wealth and power can still be fetishized and obsessed over.

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Anderson’s classical, formalist style had been used to subversive effect in his previous work, but his full embrace of it inTHERE WILL BE BLOOD points to his maturing into a very different kind of filmmaker, one whose work is infused with an almost Orwellian sense of self-aware importance (oftentimes mistaken for pretension).

The palpable influence of Robert Altman, Jonathan Demme, and Martin Scorsese in previous films gives way here to the unimpeachable greats—John Huston, Stanley Kubrick, John Ford. As a whole, THERE WILL BE BLOOD feels very Kubrickian, its opening prologue running for a full twenty minutes before the first line of dialogue is spoken (a surefire nod to the Dawn of Man sequence in Kubrick’s 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY (1968)).

This choice doesn’t come from a desire to deliberately emulate Kubrick, however—instead it comes from a place of supreme confidence in Anderson’s skills as a visual storyteller. In seeing Plainview doggedly persist against a series of debilitating mishaps to get his first oil well up and running, we learn more about the ruthlessness and intelligence of the character far more than a dialogue scene could ever tell us.

Of course, Anderson’s knack for memorable and striking dialogue continues to be put to incredible use here. While there’s less of it, Anderson manages to concoct some of the most-quoted lines in recent film memory. The film would’ve been legendary enough even without the inclusion of Plainview’s “I Drink Your Milkshake” monologue, but its inclusion brings Anderson’s full vision over the top and into the territory of unimpeachable greatness.

THERE WILL BE BLOOD was hailed as a masterpiece when it was released, with critics praising its metaphors for a modern-day thirst for oil, an unquenchable commodity that is widely believed to have driven us into a needless war with Iraq under President Bush.

It is arguably Anderson’s most successful film, with a wide swath of nominations at that year’s Academy Awards (and two wins, but none for Anderson himself). Anderson dedicated the film to the memory of his hero Robert Altman, and in doing so, he closed the book on the first part of his career—a career that Altman had directly influenced—and began an exciting new one, marked by laser-focused character studies and a sense of grandeur unmatched by any other filmmaker working today.


THE MASTER (2012)

It’s symptomatic of a high-concept, tentpole-driven system of studio filmmaking that even one of our most treasured directors must struggle to find funding, despite an unbroken string of critically acclaimed works to his name.

After the collapse of specialty studio shingles like Paramount Vantage and Warner Independent Pictures who had churned out dozens of dramatically rich prestige pictures (albeit admittedly calculated to snag Oscars) during the mid-aughts, directors like Paul Thomas Anderson suddenly found themselves shut out from a Hollywood game that increasingly favored mindless popcorn fare.

For Anderson in particular, his long-percolating idea about a religious cult inspired by L. Ron Hubbard’s Church of Scientology was deemed too risky of subject matter for its asking budget. Anderson and his regular producers, Daniel Lupi and JoAnne Sellar, struggled to find funding for nearly five years, a fact made all the more excruciating because his previous film, THERE WILL BE BLOOD (2007), had generated some of the best reviews and press of Anderson’s career.

For a long while, Anderson’s highly-anticipated project, known by various names asTHE UNTITLED PAUL THOMAS ANDERSON PROJECT and THE MASTER, looked like it would never see the light of day. Enter: Megan Ellison, a hotshot twenty-something heiress with a love for visionary auteurs and their work, as well as the considerable financial resources to help make them.

In an industry increasingly paralyzed by risk and creative bankruptcy, bold figures like Ellison represent a beacon of hope that art and commerce don’t necessarily have to be separate from one another. Drawing further inspiration from LET THERE BE LIGHT (1946), John Huston’s World War 2 documentary about soldiers and PTSD, Anderson centers THE MASTER’s focus on Freddie Quell (Joaquin Phoenix)—an eccentric, unstable man whose condition was amplified by the shell shock he contracted during the Pacific Theatre of WW2.

reddie can’t hold a steady job, is obsessed with sex, and is slowly drinking himself to death with a potent brew of whiskey, paint thinner, and torpedo fuel. In a drunken stupor, he wanders onto the yacht of a fatherly middle-aged man named Lancaster Dodd (Phillip Seymour Hoffman), who is revealed to be an enigmatic and charismatic scholar as well as the figurehead of a new religious following known simply as The Cause.

Freddie and Lancaster share a curious attraction to each other, with Lancaster tickled by the sense that he and Freddie have met once before—perhaps in a past life. Freddie uses Lancaster’s hospitality to ingratiate himself into The Cause’s good graces and inner circle, eventually earning himself a spot as a Lieutenant and Lancaster’s right-hand man.

THE MASTER defies narrative convention in that there’s no traditional story arc for audiences to follow. Instead, Anderson lets the story unfold in a compellingly obtuse way that highlights the leads’ off-kilter orbit around each other.

The result is a strange hybrid combining the starkness and gravitas of THERE WILL BE BLOOD with the eccentric abstraction of PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE (2002). There’s no condemnation of Scientology to be found here, like many had simply assumed or believed before seeing it—instead, Anderson’s vision is a portrait of a deeply disturbed individual finding his place within a community.

It just so happens that the “community” also happens to be a cult. The character of Freddie Quell is played with rapturous abandon by Phoenix in his first major role since his staged breakdown-as-performance-art seen in Casey Affleck’s I’M STILL HERE (2010).

He crafts a haunting, Oscar-nominated depiction of a man ravaged by war and self-abuse, commanding our undivided attention in every frame while fully immersing himself in his character (much like Daniel Day-Lewis had done in THERE WILL BE BLOOD).

Likewise, the late Hoffman was nominated for an Oscar in his last collaboration with Anderson before his untimely death in early 2014. Due to his long, rich working history with Anderson, Hoffman had the benefit of the role being written expressly for him, making for an effortless performance that projects a paternal warmth and convincing gravitas.

As one of the last roles of his career and life, Hoffman’s quiet, authoritative presence and un-showy confidence proves why he was considered to be one of the best, if not the best, actor of his generation. And last, but not least, Amy Adams plays Peggy Dodd, presenting a warm, matronly front as Lancaster’s wife—but behind closed doors, she’s more calculating and manipulative than Lady MacBeth.

In a film devoted to the two titan performances from its male leads, Adams more than holds her own, ending up with Oscar nomination herself for the trouble. Anderson’s regular cinematographer, Robert Elswit, was unavailable to shoot THE MASTER, so the auteur enlisted the help of Mihai Malaimaire Jr—currently making a name for himself as Francis Ford Coppola’s go-to cameraman.

The visual style of Anderson’s sixth feature is starkly different from what came before, the chief difference being Anderson’s choice to shoot the picture on 65mm film, making it the first feature to utilize the format since 1996.

This decision informed every subsequent choice down the line, meaning Anderson couldn’t shoot in his preferred anamorphic aspect ratio, and that the 65mm film camera’s sheer bulk limited his ability to execute his signature, dynamic movements.

Anderson reconciled this diluting of style with an opportunity to explore the idea of portraiture. He had always incorporated some aspect of it into his framing in past works, such as the precise profile compositions that dotted HARD EIGHT (1996) and BOOGIE NIGHTS(1997), but in shooting on 65mm film, Anderson was able to better replicate the look of large-format portraiture photography.

A higher image resolution meant shallower focus and finer grain, and when combined with the deep, stormy blues and greys afforded old-fashioned chemical color-timing, creates a rich picture that draws the viewer into this curious world.

As I mentioned before, the size of the 65mm film camera meant Anderson’s compositions were mostly limited to locked-off tripod shots, which makes for a significantly more sedate experience than any of his previous works. What little camera movement there is takes the form of slow and steady dolly moves, giving THE MASTER a patient, calculated pace that echoes the work of Stanley Kubrick.

THERE WILL BE BLOOD’s production designer Jack Fisk returns for THE MASTER, faithfully and subtly replicating the look of midcentury California. Every non-organic thing within the bounds of Anderson’s frame—the costumes, the color palette, Lancaster’s trusty yacht—is Fisk’s domain, and his unwavering commitment to authenticity and Anderson’s vision helps to create an engrossing experience that never feels false or out of place.

Anderson supplements Fisk’s authentic midcentury feel by incorporating a few well-chosen needledrop songs from the era, like Ella Fitzgerald’s “Get Thee Behind Me Satan”. Compared to the wall-to-wall disco explosion of 1997’s BOOGIE NIGHTS, the relatively sparse placement of source tracks shows the discipline and restraint of a mature filmmaker secure and confident in his vision.

Increasingly relying on original score to communicate his intended tone, Anderson again works with Radiohead guitarist Johnny Greenwood, who crafted THERE WILL BE BLOOD’s stunning symphony of dissonance. With THE MASTER, Greenwood crafts a lumbering, staccato score that promises mystery and discovery, while echoing the hypnotic techniques that practitioners of The Cause use on their followers.

Throughout the course of his filmography, Anderson’s exploration of family dynamics, sexual dependence, and the cultural heritage of California have evolved in surprising ways. California is notorious for its laidback, inclusive social structures— structures that allowed the rise of Scientology and other fringe religions.

Just as Scientology is distinctly tied to the Golden State in its origins and operations, so too does THE MASTER’s fictional organization claim California (specifically San Francisco and the state’s northern region) as its physical and mental territory.

Despite the film’s storyline taking us to different places like New York City, Phoenix, and Lynn, Massachusetts (the hometown of Anderson’s father, Ernie), Anderson’s treatment of these locales never loses sight of a distinctly Californian approach, utilizing primal iconography like the beach, palm trees, and the desert wherever it can.

Anderson’s continued fascination of family dynamics uses THE MASTER to explore the idea of family in a larger sense: a community, and the sense of belonging to one. As a lost soul without any family we are made aware of, Freddie comes off like a complete mess of a human being.

He travels the world like an aimless drifter, with no real driving force pulling him along besides the pursuit of fleeting comforts like rotgut booze and fast women. It’s not until he’s caught under the spell of Lancaster’s charismatic charlatan that he finds a semblance of peace and companionship.

He’s able to calm his voracious sexual appetite and channel it into what he perceives to be meaningful pursuits in service to something greater than him.  Without the presence of a conventional plot arc, the film’s stakes and key emotional conflict stem from Freddie’s presence within the community becoming a liability and a danger to Lancaster and Peggy, an idea made all the more complicated by the chummy father/son relationship that Lancaster shares with Freddie.

In this way, THE MASTER plays like something of a companion piece to THERE WILL BE BLOOD. Both films hinge on the relationship between father and son, with the father being a powerful man of influence and means, while the initially-loyal son bears the threat of the father’s professional demise. The similarities become most evident in each film’s climax, which both take place in the father’s grand, cathedral-like office. THERE WILL BE BLOOD finds the scene bathed in darkness, as Daniel Plainview venomously rejects his son and condemns himself to a life of wretched loneliness. Conversely, Lancaster Dodd’s office is awash in blinding daylight and, while he also releases Freddie of his bond, he does so in a warm, reassuring manner that’s meant to bring peace to Freddie’s inner chaos.

As a continuation of Anderson’s weighty examinations of profoundly flawed men, THE MASTER was received with great enthusiasm by critics. However, the positive reaction was not as universal as it was for THERE WILL BE BLOOD.

The two films are stylistically similar, conceived of and executed in a similar mindset and directly influenced by the work of John Huston. Anderson’s works have never exactly lit the box office on fire, and THE MASTER is no exception. However, its winning of the Silver Lion award at the Venice Film Festival, as well as the Academy Award nominations for its three leads, ensures THE MASTER’s place as one Anderson’s defining works.

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FIONA APPLE “HOT KNIFE” MUSIC VIDEO (2013)

For his first music video in a decade, Anderson teamed up once again with his old flame Fiona Apple, crafting a video for“HOT KNIFE”, the closing single off of Apple’s new album, The Idler Wheel. It’s unclear at first glance what the shooting format is, since it appears to be large format like 65mm, but notice that it also incorporates Anderson’s preferred anamorphic aspect ratio. I’d suggest that the piece might be digital, but I ultimately suspect that it isn’t because Anderson has yet to use the format in any of his other works. This seemingly simple, deceptively complex look extends to the video itself, featuring a conventional performance that reveals a layered complexity as the song builds. The visual trickery that marked Anderson’s previous Apple videos returns in somewhat subdued form, showcasing Anderson’s discipline and restraint as his craft has matured.

Anderson shoots Apple against a black background, lighting her in the style of portraiture in an aesthetic conceit carried over from his 2012 feature THE MASTER. The color palette is even similar, featuring cream highlights complemented by neutral, desaturated tones.

He mirrors the track’s layered vocals with a triptych of panels, surrounding Apple on both sides with backup vocalists featured in profile. The result is a subtle tapestry that visually echoes the construction of the song itself.

As of this writing, “HOT KNIFE” is Anderson’s most recent of his released work. Later this year he will release his seventh feature, INHERENT VICE, adapted from Thomas Pynchon’s novel. It will be Anderson’s first adaptation of someone else’s story, and will re-team him with THE MASTER’s Joaquin Phoenix while transporting him back to the 1970’s-era Los Angeles previously seen in BOOGIE NIGHTS.

Without knowing too many particulars of the story, it’s not hard to image thatINHERENT VICE will find Anderson continuing his in-depth character studies of compellingly flawed men.

Anderson’s sixteen-year rise from maverick indie upstart to elder statesman of American prestige cinema has eclipsed his peers, and rightfully so. The assertion that Anderson is one of our greatest living directors is one that’s widely agreed upon by the international cinematic community, and while one might think this would all go to his head, Anderson has shown a remarkable degree of modesty, humbleness, and mischievousness that endears him where other pretentious visionaries might fall short.

By merging old school aesthetic sensibilities with new school storytelling techniques, Anderson has directly inspired a generation of up-and-coming filmmakers while securing his own place among the pantheon of great directors.


ANDERSON’S INHERENT VICE (2014)

Over the course of seven features, director Paul Thomas Anderson has built up a reputation for himself as arguably the finest filmmaker of his generation.  It’s symptomatic of Hollywood’s current priorities, then, that even a director as lauded and widely-esteemed as Anderson has a difficult time getting a film made.

After finishing his 2007 masterpiece THERE WILL BE BLOOD, Anderson struggled for several years to get his follow-up, THE MASTER (2012), off the ground.  This time away from production allowed him to develop several projects simultaneously, one of which was the first novel from cult crime novelist Thomas Pynchon to ever be adapted to the screen.

Titled “Inherent Vice”, the novel’s film rights were promptly snatched up in 2010 by Anderson and his producing partners Daniel Lupi and JoAnne Sellar.  Anderson scripted the adaptation himself, with an eye to cast Robert Downey Jr in the central role of Doc Sportello, a stoner burnout turned private investigator.

However, the film’s extended development cycle caused the director to reconsider his choice, and in the end, Downey was replaced by the leading man of Anderson’s previous film, Joaquin Phoenix.  INHERENT VICE marks Anderson’s return to the studio fold after the independent production and distribution of THE MASTER, but even the increased firepower afforded by Warner Brothers’ backing wasn’t enough to save the film from its own labyrinthine plotting and an ambivalent audience reception.

 After completing two consecutive portraits of powerful, disciplined men, critics decried Anderson for taking a hard left turn into irreverence and mischief– but in the process, he just may have created a new cult classic that’s far, far ahead of its time.

The plot to INHERENT VICE is, in a word, incomprehensible.  The story’s various twists and turns are densely layered and delivered almost entirely in stoner mumble and hippie slang.  Multiple viewings aren’t encouraged, they’re mandatory in order to fully untangle the sea of knots that Anderson has woven here.

 It’s important to note then, that this is not a simple case of directorial overindulgence; in presenting INHERENT VICE in this way, Anderson has faithfully captured Pynchon’s idiosyncratic voice and spirit right down to the letter.

 The story is set in 1970, in the fictional SoCal seaside village known as Gordita Beach (akin to the real-life Hermosa or Manhattan Beach communities).  The Manson murders have brought the Free Love era crashing to the ground, shattering the collective dream of the 1960’s and leaving everyone too zoned out to pick up the pieces.

 Their utopian dreams in shambles, the hippies and the stoners have chosen to carve out their own place within the workforce– one of whom is Doc Sportello (Phoenix) a private investigator who works out of a rented room inside of a doctor’s office.

One night, he’s visited upon by his ethereal ex, Shasta (Katherine Waterston), who pleads for his assistance in tracking down her new beau– a real estate mogul named Mickey Wolfmann (Eric Roberts) who has recently gone missing.  Doc agrees to help Shasta, partly because he still carries a torch for her.

 As he descends into the seedy underbelly of SoCal’s surf culture, he manages to uncover a sprawling criminal conspiracy perpetuated by crooked cops, hedonistic dentists, and murderous white supremacists.  Frankly, it’s hard to keep track of all the disparate elements, and the only thing that’s given a modicum of bleary-eyed clarity is the film’s title.

 Even then, it’s full meaning is maddeningly elusive.  Going by the film’s definition, “Inherent Vice” is a shipping term that describes an item whose decay is an inevitable product of its own internal components (rather than via external forces).  Milk will spoil, chocolate will melt.

 In the film, Doc wonders what the term means when it’s applied to ex-girlfriends– we can surmise that it is our own inherent vices that turns those girlfriends into exes in the first place.  Our weaknesses and indulgence cause us to deteriorate from the inside, keeping us from arriving at our destination in a pristine, perfect state.

Anderson’s approach to INHERENT VICE suggests that the film, then, is about the Flower Power generation’s internal degenerative agents and their attempts to keep their particular way of life alive in the face of a New Conservatism embodied by figures like Ronald Reagan.

Controversial leading man Joaquin Phoenix fully embodies Thomas Pynchon’s eccentric creation in his second consecutive appearance for Anderson.  Much like Anderson’s original choice, Robert Downey Jr, Phoenix is a no-brainer for the role, and could’ve sailed by on the strengths of his own eccentric charisma.

 However, Phoenix disappears entirely inside Sportello’s signature mutton-chops and birkenstocks.  A burned-out hippie in the grand tradition of THE BIG LEBOWSKI (1998), Sportello is a relic of a bygone age that won’t recognize that it has ended.

 Phoenix charmingly mumbles his way through Anderson’s idiosyncratic caper, but years of heavy drug use have done little to dull his investigative edge.  Josh Brolin’s Lt. Christian “Bigfoot” Bjornsen is almost the exact opposite– a sharp-witted lawman with a particularly blunt approach to justice.  Brolin is effortlessly convincing as the lantern-jawed, masculine ideal of Eisenhower-era America.

The ironclad resoluteness of Lt. Bjornsen is a fantastic foil to Sportello’s squirrelly paranoia, creating a truly entertaining chemistry that fuels the film’s momentum.  In the absence of a true, singular villain for Sportello and Bjornsen to track down, the story compensates by focuses instead on the titanic battle of wills between these two characters– each man embodying the ideals of their respective eras and hellbent on staying afloat amidst the tumultuous sea of change that threatens to wash right over them.

A rogue’s gallery of oddballs and eccentrics populate Anderson’s supporting cast, most of whom are working with the director for the first time.  As Doc’s ex-lover, Shasta, Katherine Waterston is presented to the audience in a manner not unlike a spiritual vision.

She’s a ghost– drifting in and out of Doc’s life without warning, bewitching him with her perpetual pout.  Already a growing presence within the independent scene, Waterston delivers a breakout performance that lingers in the mind, infecting the audience’s memory much in the same way she’s infected Doc.

Better known for her musical career as a singer and harpist, Joanna Newsom lends her ethereal physicality to the film as Sortilege– a character whose purpose within the narrative is never fully explained.  She acts as something of an avatar for Pynchon himself, preserving his distinct prose in the form of onscreen narration.

It’s implied several times throughout that only Doc has the ability to see and interact with Sortilege, which suggests that she might be something of a guardian angel– a soothing voice to calm the paranoid storm raging in Doc’s head.

Despite extremely limited screen time, Benicio Del Toro makes a memorable impression as Sauncho Smilax, an attorney specializing in marine law who acts as a pro-bono lawyer, confidant, and friend to Doc.  The same can be said of Owen Wilson in his subdued performance as Coy Harlingen, an ex-junkie musician and family man who’s been faking his death for the last few years.

Jena Malone is quickly becoming one of the more interesting character actresses of her generation, as evidenced by her turn in INHERENT VICE as Coy’s wife, Hope– another ex-junkie who found God and a set of false chompers after giving birth to their son.

Her recent dental work ends up as a vital clue in Sportello’s investigation, linking her to Martin Short’s demented, coke-hoovering dentist character Dr. Rudy Blatnoyd.  Blatnoyd is a member of The Golden Fang, the shadowy crime syndicate that’s seemingly behind this whole mess.

Rounding out Anderson’s supporting cast of note is a quartet of well-known character actors, each of whom effortlessly slip into the director’s idiosyncratic vision of LA in the early 70’s.  Reese Witherspoon plays Deputy District Attorney Penny Kimball, Doc’s current lover and a strong-willed, independent woman in her own right.  Curiously, she’s very much a manifestation of The Establishment, an entity Doc has been battling all his life.

This character trait leads to some gloriously off-kilter chemistry between her and Doc, and makes for some of the film’s most memorable moments.  Eric Roberts, also known as the The Man Who Will Act In Anything, displays formidable control of his craft in his brief appearance as real estate mogul Michael Wolfmann.

The mysterious man at the center of this whole caper, Wolfmann is initially presented in photographic form as a rich and successful businessman.  However, when Doc tracks him down at a rehab facility outside of town, Wolfmann is strung out and barely coherent, having been placed under the watchful eye of the feds and doped up beyond all recognition.

Michael Williams, a rising talent with high-profile turns in THE WIRE and BOARDWALK EMPIRE, makes an amusing cameo as Tariq Khalil, a former member of the Black Gorilla gang who has just gotten out of prison, only to find his old hood completely bulldozed to make way for one of Wolfmann’s planned suburban communities.

Finally,SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE alum Maya Rudolph– Anderson’s real-life partner and the mother of his children– appears briefly as Petunia Leeway, the secretary at Doc’s office.  INHERENT VICE is a film that often feels meandering and unfocused– the production process was politely described by Anderson’s collaborators as “chaotic”.

Most of the time, this would be a bad thing, but that isn’t necessarily the case here.  Indeed, Anderson’s adherence to Pynchon’s particular voice and his cavalier subversion (or outright disposal) of the genre’s most recognizable tropes make for a singularly unique mystery film.

The cinematography goes a long way towards conveying this notion, with Anderson’s long-time director of photography Robert Elswit returning to head up the production after his absence during THE MASTER.  Having shot most THE MASTER in large-format 65mm film, Anderson and Elswit return to the tried-and-true 35mm gauge, choosing a grainy stock that adds a slight veneer of granola crunchiness.

Retaining THE MASTER’s 1.85:1 aspect ratio, INHERENT VICE is presented as a gritty, sunbaked take on the traditional noir genre– some have even go far as to call it a “surf noir”.  The color palette deals in muted, faded tones that were once previously bright– a reflection of the harsh sobriety that followed the collapse of the chemically-altered dream of the 1960’s.

The lighting is bright and naturalistic, save for the nocturnal sequences, which take on a deep, almost-theatrical cobalt hue.  A filmmaker long known for his dynamic camerawork, Anderson’s recent output has seen a noticeable drawdown of flashy techniques in favor of masterful discipline.

 INHERENT VICE seemingly deviates from this laser-focused approach by shooting a substantial majority of setups handheld, yet it also reinforces Anderson’s previous aesthetic conventions in a big way.

The film plays like something of an amalgamation of his prior stylistic epochs:  his early-career fondness for extended tracking shots and current fascination with the compositional conceits of portraiture are present in their own right (like in the long Steadicam shot that plays under the opening title), but they’re also combined to form a recurring visual motif unique to INHERENT VICE.

Many scenes are presented in extended master shots with little to no coverage, with his compositions accentuated by a slow, almost imperceptible dolly and/or zoom movement forward that’s somewhat reminiscent of Stanley Kubrick’s late-career aesthetic.

Anderson’s foray into comedy in the years surrounding PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE (2002) also informs INHERENT VICE, making for his most outright comedic effort in over a decade.  There’s a surprising amount of visual slapstick at work here, along with several playful visual gags like a shot of his characters partaking in a pizza dinner party composed to recreate Leonard Da Vinci’s “The Last Supper”.

INHERENT VICE marks Anderson’s first collaboration with a new production designer, David Crank.  Having worked as an art director under legendary production designer Jack Fisk on Anderson’s previous two features, Crank stepped up to the task when Fisk proved unavailable to reprise his role (most likely due to his commitments on Terrence Malick’s forthcomingKNIGHT OF CUPS).

INHERENT VICE takes place in a 1970’s that has yet to see the glittering disco balls depicted inBOOGIE NIGHTS (1997), so naturally the film’s aesthetic hews closer to a late 60’s feel.  Crank’s production design is realistic and low-key, projecting a modest and lived-in authenticity that never descends into camp or exaggeration.

In his third consecutive collaboration with Anderson, Radiohead guitarist Jonny Greenwood proves himself an invaluable component of the director’s mid-career aesthetic, much like Jon Brion had been for HARD EIGHT (1996) through PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE.

Greenwood is inherently suited towards Anderson’s artistic quirks, enabling him to complement and elevate the footage into a higher, sometimes-transcendent realm.  For all its perceived imperfections, INHERENT VICE’s strongest suit is arguably Greenwood’s original score– a romantic, mysterious and avant-garde effort comprised of violins, oboes, and musical saws that harken back to the ornately orchestral cues of yesteryear.

While he doesn’t lean on needle drop source tracks as much as he did in the first act of his career, Anderson nevertheless uses his lively period setting as an opportunity to employ some choice art-rock and pop classics from the era.

The most high-profile of these tracks is Can’s “Vitamin C”, deployed as a luridly beckoning narrative agent during the film’s opening sequences.  Artists like Neil Young and Sam Cooke also appear on a soundtrack that ably captures the eclectic vibe of vintage SoCal: a broadly diverse palette of crooning country ballads, funky R&B cuts, and psychedelic rock riffs.

The music technically may be from the same era, but it’s a far cry from the bright, cheery pop tunes we heard in BOOGIE NIGHTS.  Indeed, INHERENT VICE’s selection of cues highlights the darker, more-paranoid aspects of the decade.

Throughout the film, Anderson recurringly utilizes an interesting musical technique that blurs the line between in-scene music (diagetic) and soundtrack (non-diagetic).  Oftentimes, someone will be listening to music within a scene only for Anderson to then transition to the next beat while changing the acoustic dynamics of the track to reflect that it’s now playing over the image.

The effect is similar to stream of consciousness–  a cascading flow of ocean waves washing over us and carrying us through into the next moment.  Though INHERENT VICE may be a faithful adaption of Thomas Pynchon’s novel, there’s so much overlap between the source material and PTA’s core thematic conceits that the final product also reads as decidedly Anderson-ian.

His recent explorations into the dynamics of power with THERE WILL BE BLOOD and THE MASTER is manifest in INHERENT VICEvia the ideological war being fought by Doc and Lt. Bjornsen.  They have diametrically-opposed outlooks on life, but they’re flip sides of the same coin: they’re both inclined to seek out the truth.

As such, their animosity and one-upmanship ironically resembles mismatched buddy cop comedies or the withering pettiness of sibling rivalries.  The off-kilter intimacies of non-blood familial relationships drive Anderson’s characters throughout his filmography, with INHERENT VICE’s contribution being the major subplot that endeavors to reunite Coy Harlingen with his wife and child.

Funnily enough, this subplot ultimately serves as the source of the film’s climactic emotional catharsis in the absence of a tidy resolution to the film’s primary plot.  Bizarre, dysfunctional sexual encounters are another prominent component of Anderson’s artistic aesthetic, a conceit that plays out in INHERENT VICE via a visit to a secret “massage” parlor, pornographic neckties, and a love scene between Doc and Shasta that plays out with such a prolonged sense of suspense and anticipation that it would make Sergio Leone jealous.

Perhaps the most significant aspect of INHERENT VICE as it pertains to its place within Anderson’s larger body of work is its engagement with California’s distinct cultural heritage.  Much like THE MASTER explored how the Golden State’s relaxed sense of independence made it a breeding ground for crackpot religious cults and delusional charlatans, INHERENT VICE examines how the potent cocktail of mind-altering substances and alternative lifestyle explorations in the 1960’s exploded into countless subcultures and communities.

Indeed, more so than many other films to my memory, INHERENT VICE captures that peculiar blend of paranoia and unease that plagued LA’s utopian communities in the wake of the Manson killings.  The sunny LA cityscape has always been a colorful place, culturally-speaking, and INHERENT VICE bypasses the glitz of Hollywood or the glamor of Beverly Hills in favor of the Southland’s drought-choked sprawl.

Distinctly Californian characters like hippies, neo-Nazis and cult leaders clash together in distinctly Californian locales like seaside coffee shops, rehabilitation facilities and canyon-side mansions.

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As his filmography has grown, it’s becoming more evident that Anderson has achieved something remarkable– with the exception of HARD EIGHT, the Golden State has served as a prominent connective tissue between all of his films.

Just as much as the 20th Century could be called “The American Century”, so too could it reasonably be referred to as the “The Californian Century” in that the state was an embodiment of the progressive ideals that drove American prosperity for much of last century.

Anderson’s films mostly take place in California, spanning a wide variety of time periods.  The span is so wide, in fact, that nearly every decade of the 20th Century (save for the 30’s) is represented at some point in Anderson’s work.

THERE WILL BE BLOOD covered the birth and growth of the state from the turn of the century to the late 20’s.  The postwar boom times of the 40’s and 50’s are the setting of THE MASTER.  INHERENT VICE takes place in 1970 but contains flashbacks to the 60’s.

OOGIE NIGHTS’ decadent excess spans both the 1970’s and the 80’s.  MAGNOLIA andPUNCH-DRUNK LOVE explore California’s evolving sense of identity during the 90’s and the turn of the new millennium.  If you were to watch Anderson’s output in chronological order according to their story’s time periods, you’d come away with a weirdly alternate, yet comprehensive history of the American Century as seen through California’s distinct perspective.

INHERENT VICE is the kind of film that’s not easy to love– it takes multiple viewings to even understand its plot, let alone embrace the idiosyncratic quirks of Anderson’s vision.  When it premiered at the New York Film Festival to polarized reviews, word of mouth began to spread that Anderson had made an objectively bad film.

Critics praised the performances of his cast, but they all pretty much agreed that the story was unsalvageable– an overindulgent failure.  Box office receipts were consistent with this reaction, confirming INHERENT VICE’s cultural reputation as a huge misfire from one of our most treasured filmmakers.

Any Oscar campaign plans were probably scaled back instantly, but even the mountain of disappointment that greeted the film upon its release couldn’t stop it from earning Oscar nominations for Best Adapted Screenplay and Best Costume Design.

The collective frustration with the film is very real, most likely a reaction stemming from only one or two viewings at best– relatively snap judgments made by people who don’t care to commit to untangling the film’s myriad mysteries.

Like so many films before it, INHERENT VICE might simply be a victim of unrealistic expectations– after all, Anderson’s previous two works were staggeringly confident and majestically executed, and if the director’s rabid fanbase was expecting more of the same, they were bound to be sorely disappointed.

Such expectations tend to deny filmmakers like Anderson their right as artists to grow and experiment, and anyone who expects their favorite artist to deliver the same thing again and again like its some mechanized process surely misses the entire point of art.

Of course, INHERENT VICE could also simply just be a bad film– it ultimately comes down to individual taste. Just like the unattainable mystery at the center of the film, there will probably never be a definitive critical consensus as to INHERENT VICE’s place in the cinematic landscape.

If I was a betting man, I’d wager that it’ll slowly accumulate a cult appreciation not unlike THE BIG LEBOWSKI as multiple viewings increasingly reveal the full scope of Anderson’s irreverent vision.

What’s less ambiguous about INHERENT VICE is its place within Anderson’s body of work.  As of this writing, Anderson is forty-five years old and has seven features to his credit.  It’s hard to imagine that the hotshot kid who made BOOGIE NIGHTS is nearly fifty now.

By middle age, most successful directors have found an aesthetic that maximizes their personal strengths, inevitably settling into a long period of what one could call beneficial stagnance– yet it’s stagnance nonetheless.  Treading water keeps you afloat, but it doesn’t actually take you anywhere.

Midway through his career, Anderson seems to have found his strongest suit only to throw it away in hopes he might stumble across an even stronger one.  He’s experimenting; pushing the boundaries of his voice.  The results may be uneven, but they keep his perspective fresh and honest.

The irreverent playfulness on display in INHERENT VICE marks a departure from his string of John Huston-inspired power portraits, and while it’s a safe bet that Anderson won’t bring this film’s stylistic approach to his next, he most definitely will continue to refine and rework what it means to be “A Paul Thomas Anderson Film”.


JOANNA NEWSOM “SAPOKANIKAN” MUSIC VIDEO (2015)

In August of 2015, director Paul Thomas Anderson dropped a new music video on the unsuspecting masses.  The piece features his INHERENT VICE star– singer/songwriter Joanna Newsom– performing her new single “SAPOKANIKAN” as she walks through the chilly Manhattan streets at twilight hour.  On the surface, it’s a simple performance piece that’s so low-tech in its execution that seemingly anyone could have done it.  Indeed, upon first glance, there doesn’t seem to be any indication of the prestigious filmmaker’s participation whatsoever.

 It could just as well be a scrappy film school student’s work.  However, Anderson’s deceptively simple approach here reveals some interesting insights for those who would delve deeper.

“SAPOKANIKAN” is a stark departure from Anderson’s previous work in the visual sense, but it stays consistent with his artistic conceits and thematic fascinations.  The piece appears to have been shot digitally, which is a notable factor considering Anderson’s preference for celluloid within his feature catalogue.  It also appears that Anderson is operating the camera himself, shooting handheld in extremely guerrilla fashion using only the natural light afforded by their most-likely-stolen locations.

 The piece’s spotty, inconsistent focus is further evidence of the extremely lo-fi nature of the shoot.  Overall, there’s a great deal of looseness to Anderson’s approach– the piece comes off less like a music video and more like a documentary: very improvisational and naturalistic.

Anderson’s work as of late has demonstrated a fascination with portraiture– a conceit that has generated some of the most affecting close-ups in recent memory.  This dovetails quite nicely with the format of a performance video, allowing Anderson to indulge in compositions that put Newsom’s ethereal visage front and center against a twinkling backdrop of fuzzy light orbs.

When it comes to music videos, Anderson has always been picky about which artists he chooses to collaborate with.  Traditionally, the artist in question is either a close friend/lover (like Fiona Apple) or has worked with him on his features in some capacity (like Aimee Mann or Michael Penn).  Specifically, the artists he chooses to direct videos for tend to be strong-minded and quasi-eccentric female singer-songwriters.

Joanna Newsom, being both a left-of-mainstream singer/songwriter and the wispy, lilting voice of INHERENT VICE’s quasi-narrator/commentator Sortilege, carries on this proud tradition.

“SAPOKANIKAN” is hard to place within Anderson’s artistic trajectory, simply because it seems so off-the-cuff and improvisational.  Without any further commentary by Anderson or Newsom themselves, it’s difficult to tell whether the lo-fi, handheld aesthetic was a result of the production’s limited shooting circumstances or if Anderson is moving away from the structural formalism that marked his camerawork in favor of the loose, playful vibe he began exploring in INHERENT VICE.

 If recent developments on his feature slate are any indication, it might be the latter– he’s reportedly attached to write and direct a new version of the classic children’s tale, “Pinocchio”.  It may very well be several years before we’re able to discern how “SAPOKANIKAN” informs Anderson’s evolving aesthetic, but in the meantime, at least we have a charming promotional piece for one of the music industry’s most enchanting artists.


JUNUN (2015)

From the outside perspective of American culture, India is often regarded as a faraway land of personal and creative rediscovery.  Many American artists have made the journey in a bid to escape the confines of Anglo-Saxon cultural values as well as their own individual stylistic paradigms– Wes Anderson did it with 2007’s THE DARJEELING LIMITED, and Danny Boyle followed swiftly after with the Oscar-winning SLUMDOG MILLIONAIRE (2008).

Following the ambivalent reception of his 2014 feature INHERENT VICE, acclaimed director Paul Thomas Anderson made the journey himself, tagging along with his regular composer (and Radiohead guitarist) Jonny Greenwood as he embarked on an ambitious concept album called “Junun”.  In a way, the trip was a chance for Anderson to repay the creative debt he owed to Greenwood, whose eclectic musical taste had played a crucial role in the director’s mid-career stylistic reinvention.

The resulting work, 2015’s JUNUN, is notable within Anderson’s filmography for several reasons, chief among them being that it is his first documentary as well as his first substantial foray into the digital video format.  The central conceit of the piece traces Greenwood’s creation and recording of the album in collaboration with Israeli composer Shye Ben Tzur and local brass ensemble The Rajasthan Express.

The music, recorded inside of the ancient Mehrangarh Fort in Jodphur, takes its inspiration from a variety of Eastern influences and customs while blending in a combination of spoken languages like Hindi, Hebrew and Urdu, as well as hints of Radiohead’s post-modern sound via Greenwood’s avant-garde touch.   The 1.85:1 HD presentation is relatively unadorned and naturalistic, perhaps even a little lo-fi looking– apparently, a more polished visual presentation was planned, but Anderson’s camera gear was held up by customs and he had to make do with his own personal camera and one of his producer’s drones.

Thankfully, we live in a golden age of DSLR cinematography, so Anderson’s consumer camera set-up proves more than capable at capturing the majestic grit of the ancient environs or the stunning character of the light– be it either dusty daylight or amber-soaked candlelight.  Anderson operates the camera himself, taking his cues from the cinema verite documentary style pioneered by D.A. Pennebaker and the Maysles brothers.

 He alternates between locked-off tripod shots that studiously observe Greenwood and Company’s creative process, and shot-from-the-hip handheld shots that grab fleeting unplanned images in a bid to establish a sense of temporal immediacy and impermanence.  As befitting a documentary about the process of creation, Anderson makes no effort to obscure his own process– on-the-fly ISO changes, various repositions of his tripod and compositions, and even his own off-camera voice prompts are left intact within the final edit.

 He also incorporates newer documentary techniques like timelapse footage and economically-achieved aerials via the aforementioned drone.

JUNUN is utterly devoid of most of Anderson’s signature stylistic traits as a director, arguably a case of the director exercising gracious restraint so as not to overpower his regular composer’s own creative message.  Indeed, the presence of Greenwood in the first place is the most visible signifier of Anderson’s participation.

His long fascination with the cultural significance of the video format, last explored in 1999’s MAGNOLIA, reappears in JUNUN not as critique or commentary, but simply as an acquisition format chosen for the needs of the shoot.  Beyond that, there’s only fleeting instances that bear the imprint of Anderson’s idiosyncratic vision: the brief appearance of a harmonium calling back to PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE (2002), or the frequent cutaways to a pigeon watching from the rafters that serve to highlight the director’s inherent mischievousness.

Though little seen by audiences at large, JUNUN was well-received by critics.  After the film’s debut at the 2015 New York Film Festival, Anderson embraced the emergent market of digital distribution, releasing it exclusively on the social film site Mubi before making it available on iTunes.  By bypassing traditional markets, he was able to access his rabid fan base directly, and more immediately satiate their hunger for new work.  JUNUN stands on its own merits as an intriguing insight into the creative process behind an admittedly fantastic album, but the question remains: how exactly does it fit into Anderson’s continual evolution as a cinematic artist?

From a technical standpoint, the film seems to follow a precedent set by INHERENT VICE, which saw Anderson turn away from the restrained formalism that marked THERE WILL BE BLOOD and THE MASTER, finding new inspiration in chaos and spontaneity.  However, there’s a profound emotional shift also unfolding here– the joy that Greenwood and his collaborators achieve while recording in ancient surroundings approaches an altered state of mind– the act of creation and travel is a transcendent experience for them.

Whereas INHERENT VICE’s characters achieved enlightenment with chemicals and substances, JUNUN’s high is purely natural.  Anderson can’t help but be dosed by the infectious rapture of his collaborators, and as a result, delivers a lively meditation on creation and culture that expands his own artistic horizons far beyond the Californian landscape that so profoundly shaped his previous worldview.


JOANNA NEWSOM “DIVERS” MUSIC VIDEO (2015)

The production of INHERENT VICE in 2014 begat a particularly strong working partnership between director Paul Thomas Anderson and cast member Joanna Newsom, who played the film’s ethereal narrator.  The momentum of that collaboration spilled over into Newsom’s other career as a singer / songwriter as she prepared to release a new album titled “Divers”.

She recruited Anderson to helm the video for the album’s first single “SAPOKANIKAN” (2015), and when it came time to make the video for the album’s title track “DIVERS” (2015), Anderson again provided his services.  With this development, Anderson and Newsom had seemed to cement a platonic version of the creative partnership he shared with former flame Fiona Apple in the late 90’s and early 2000’s.

Whereas the video for “SAPOKANIKAN” was quite improvisational in its use of handheld location shooting and natural light, “DIVERS” takes the opposite tack, opting for an ultra-controlled and disciplined execution.  The video was filmed at the New York City studio of abstract artist Kim Keever, whose particular aesthetic gives the video its central idea.

Anderson places Newsom center-frame amidst a fantastical miniature mountainscape, lit to resemble a baroque Romantic-era painting.  As the piece plays, Anderson slowly– almost imperceptibly– pulls the camera back to reveal more of the landscape, while brightly-colored clouds blossom in the sky.  At this point, we realize that the visual trickery is all occurring in-camera– Anderson is shooting through the prism of an aquarium with perfectly-still water, and the beautiful, ethereal cloud-blooming effect is actually colored sand being poured into it.

After the relative stylistic anonymity that marked “SAPOKANIKAN” and his India-set music documentary JUNUN (2015), “DIVERS” finds Anderson returning to familiar thematic territory.  The fascination with portraiture that marked THERE WILL BE BLOOD (2007) and THE MASTER (2012) is front and center here, with Anderson’s choice to focus on the close-up contours of Newsom’s facial features acting as an echo of the mountains that surround her.

 The decision to use Keevers’ expressionistic aesthetic recalls Anderson’s collaboration with the late digital artist Jeremy Blake on PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE’s painterly interludes, further establishing the director’s appreciation for the work of artists across other visual mediums.

In keeping with Anderson’s lifelong defiance of convention, “DIVERS” received an unconventional rollout for a music video.  Whereas most are now simply released into the online ether and supported by write ups from a handful of tastemaking music blogs, this particular music video instead premiered in local arthouse theaters throughout New York City, only making its online debut after a brief period of exclusivity.  Reaction to the video was mostly positive, with many lavishing praise on Anderson’s stunning visuals and unique approach.

At the time of this writing (April 2016), it’s currently unknown what Anderson’s next directorial effort will be.  For a while, he was attached to write and direct a new live-action adaptation of the classic fable PINOCCHIO, which undoubtedly would have been an interesting take to say the least.  The stylistic experimentation and embrace of chaos that’s shaped his most recent output leaves us perplexed and unsure what his next move will be– which is exactly where the unpredictable auteur would have us be.

It’s hard to believe that the boy wonder who took American independent cinema by storm is now a middle-aged man approaching 50, a fact that only makes his staggering accomplishments in the intervening few decades that much more astonishing.  Whatever comes next, it will be sure to intrigue, inspire, surprise, and shock us– and it will further establish Anderson himself as one of the most vital and important filmmakers of our time.


RADIOHEAD: “DAYDREAMING” MUSIC VIDEO (2016)

Director Paul Thomas Anderson has long been tangentially connected to the avant-garde rock group Radiohead via guitarist Jonny Greenwood, so it was only a matter of time until he collaborated with the band directly.  In 2016, he did just that, releasing a video for “DAYDREAMING”, a track called off their ninth album– the first since their 2011 release “The King Of Limbs”.

The piece features Radiohead frontman Thom Yorke walking through various locations and environments, stitched together as if it were one cohesive labyrinth.  Anderson makes a repeated visual motif out of doors, stairs, and other transitional architectural structures, imbuing them via the magic of editing with the power to effortlessly transport Yorke across space and time.

Captured in cool, neutral tones with what appears to be a mix of conventional celluloid film and digital acquisition,  “DAYDREAMING” bears Anderson’s cinematic stamp much more explicitly than his recent videos for Joanna Newsom.  Though broken up into a series of vignettes, the video’s editing essentially structures itself as a handful of extended tracking shots, a camera movement technique Anderson staked out for himself as an artistic signature in early works like BOOGIE NIGHTS (1997) and MAGNOLIA (1999).

 Whereas he almost exclusively used the Steadicam to achieve these types of shots before, here Anderson also uses handheld camerawork, giving himself a wider berth for spontaneous inspiration.  His camera consistently pushes or pulls us along the Z axis, beckoning us toward or repulsing us away from a singular point of convergence.  Meanwhile, a shallow depth of field works to obscure that distance, lathering the video in a coat of mystery.

“DAYDREAMING” also alludes to some of Anderson’s core artistic conceits, namely the iconography of California and the compositional values of portraiture.  While the various spaces that Yorke stumbles through are meant to be taken as generic, geographically-speaking, they nevertheless remain characteristic of the Californian landscape: sunny beaches, crowded laundromats, grungy industrial spaces, and sleepy bungalows.  Anderson also finds a few opportunities to dwell on Yorke’s face as he stands still, framing his weathered visage inside of a tight portrait.

The video operates primarily on dream logic, and this dreamlike quality– of being removed from an objective, sober reality– generates a feeling of consistency with Anderson’s other output from this period.  “DAYDREAMING” speaks to Anderson’s recent exploration of alternative distribution techniques, in that he unleashed the video on an unsuspecting populace; there was little to no advance notice that there was even going to be a new Radiohead album, let alone a stunning video from Anderson to accompany it.

 As a band, Radiohead has shown a preternatural ability to harness the power of the Internet to find innovative distribution avenues.  If his recent efforts are any indication, Anderson is quickly mastering these same skills for himself.


RADIOHEAD: “PRESENT TENSE” MUSIC VIDEO (2016)

Following his surprise music video, “DAYDREAMING” for Radiohead’s surprise 2016 album, A Moon Shaped Pool, director Paul Thomas Anderson dropped yet another collaboration with the iconic art-rock outfit out of the warm, blue September sky.  In delivering his second video for the album, Anderson has proved himself a cinematic soul-mate to the avant-garde musical character of Radiohead’s new album.

The piece, for the track “PRESENT TENSE”, dramatically scales back any stylistic pyrotechnics in favor of a subdued, intimate performance video.  Sitting against a bare-bones backdrop in warm amber light so dim it could almost be candlelight, Thom Yorke and Jonny Greenwood perform the track through its entirety with their voices, their acoustic guitars, and even a Roland CR78 drum machine.

 Anderson alternates his camera between two separate setups, framing the two bandmates in static medium shots before punching in for a few shallow-focus closeups that further demonstrate Anderson’s fascination with the visual language of portraits.  Yorke and Greenwood give themselves entirely to their performances, achieving a heightened state of mind that calls to mind the similar expressions of artistic rapture evidenced in Anderson’s 2015 music documentary JUNUN.  

From “BURN THE WITCH” to Anderson’s own “DAYDREAMING”, the music videos that have accompanied the release of A Moon Shaped Pool have been nothing less than creatively-arresting works of art.  “PRESENT TENSE” is a much more subdued effort in that sense, but it nevertheless resonates with the conceptual clarity and restrained profundity that has become a hallmark of Anderson’s mature aesthetic.


RADIOHEAD MUSIC VIDEO, “THE NUMBERS” (2016)

The entirety of director Paul Thomas Anderson’s 2016 output has been exclusively for celebrated art-rock outfit Radiohead, an association that no doubt came about via Anderson’s frequent collaborations with guitarist Jonny Greenwood on the score for his last three features.  The release of prior music videos for “DAYDREAMING” and “PRESENT TENSE” were both surprise events in the spring and summer, respectively, and in the autumn, Anderson released a third surprise video– this time for Radiohead’s track “THE NUMBERS”.

This particular piece recalls the casual, intimate vibe that Anderson created previously for “PRESENT TENSE”, setting up a vignette that finds frontman Thom Yorke and Greenwood sitting on a park bench and performing the song to the accompaniment of a CR78 drum machine.  “THE NUMBERS” take the opposite tack in its visual presentation, setting the action during a bright, sunny day in the California mountains.

Strung together in a series of four distinct shots, “THE NUMBERS” possesses more of a formal approach than its predecessor, tracking in on its subjects from a wide establishing frame via an elegant dolly move.

Indeed, the piece is an interesting mix of the formal and casual; a tone entirely appropriate for this current period of growth and experimentation Anderson seems to be undergoing.  Nestled somewhere between the classical camerawork of his narrative features and the handheld naturalism of JUNUN“THE NUMBERS” further implies Anderson’s hand via the backdrop of Los Angeles’ dramatic mountain vistas and the subtle portraiture of Yorke’s face, captured at an oblique angle.

It remains to be seen if Anderson and Radiohead will collaborate on any further performance videos, but it’s a safe bet that the director’s experimentations here will lay the groundwork for whatever form his aesthetic takes in his next feature effort next year.


“VALENTINE” (2017)

Director Paul Thomas Anderson’s output since his 2014 feature INHERENT VICE has been emblematic of a seasoned visionary dropping the selectiveness implied by his “prestige filmmaker” status and rediscovering the joys of artistic expression for sheer creativity’s sake.  The 2015 music documentary JUNUN is arguably his most substantial work in this vein, with him embracing the mobility and cost-effectiveness of digital filmmaking for the first time in a bid to capture the recording of the eponymous Jonny Greenwood album.

 His ensuing trio of music videos for Radiohead’s 2016 album “A Moon Shaped Pool” doubled down on this approach, with the latter two in particular content to simply sit and observe Greenwood and Thom Yorke perform the respective tracks acoustically in simple surroundings.

JUNUN and the Radiohead videos were executed under relative secrecy, with the former making a surprise debut at the New York Film Festival and the Radiohead videos dropping on the unsuspecting blogerati with no advance warning.  2017 looks to continue this phase of Anderson’s career, judging by the similarly-surprising release of his music video for indie rock band Haim’s new single,  “RIGHT NOW”.

 Even more surprising is the revelation that “RIGHT NOW” is simply the first third of a longer short film called VALENTINE, so named for the recording studio that the short takes place in.  Clocking in at a brisk fourteen minutes, VALENTINE was produced in secret by Sarah Murphy, Albert Chi, and Erica Frauman, and documents the Haim sisters as they perform/record three tracks off their first album since their 2013 debut.

Anderson’s involvement with the project is certainly unexpected, given his relative celebrity in regards to Haim’s own artistic profile, but just like his prior music videos for Fiona Apple and Radiohead, his connection here is highly personal.  He had reached out to them strictly as a fan around the time of their debut, but through their correspondence, he came to discover that the trio’s mother had been his art teacher (1).

“RIGHT NOW” came about specifically when the band asked him down to their studio for his creative input on the track– a visit that apparently inspired him to document the song’s recording right then and there (1), subsequently leading to the expansion of the project under VALENTINE’s current scope.  Serving as his own cinematographer,  Anderson shoots VALENTINE in a manner indicative of the extremely tight prep window, but which nonetheless exhibits his impeccable taste for composition and movement.

He brings his compelling cinematic eye to the 35mm film image, harnessing the soft ambient light of the studio to create a cold color palette of cerulean & steel tones.  The piece creates a minimal aesthetic by stringing together a series of long takes that echo the spare, deconstructionist nature of the tracks themselves.  Anderson’s camera evokes the sensation of searching as it smoothly tracks, pans, and zooms around the studio and documents the three Haim sisters laying down the tracks using a variety of instruments.

 In this regard, VALENTINE’s execution is relatively straightforward and documentary, but its subtle emphasis on the music’s physical construction via its constituent parts evokes the transcendent joys of artistic creation.  Indeed, VALENTINE is just as much a celebration of creation as it is a portrait of Haim as a band– to the extent that Anderson doesn’t bother to frame out his film lights from several shots, thus evoking the particular joy that the act of filmmaking brings him.

 Anderson typically frames his close-ups in a manner resembling portraiture; a conceit that ably captures the Haim sisters as they lose themselves in the expression of self via their music.  Like the musicians featured in JUNUN, the Haim sisters seem to enter a state of heightened internal connection to their creative engines, manifest outwardly in facial expressions one might describe simply as “rapture”.

VALENTINE would follow the release pattern of his recent musical work, dropping out of the sky with little in the way of advance warning and generating an exclusive “cool-kid” vibe by screening exclusively at the Film Forum in New York for a brief period before making its Youtube debut after months of buzz.  The film might be understated in its execution, but it is an impeccably-crafted and profoundly resonant hybrid of music video and short documentary.

 Haim couldn’t have asked for a better collaborator to kick off the release of their second album, and given Anderson’s history of doing multiple videos for a single album, it wouldn’t be surprising if they were to coax him back for another round.  In the meantime, the cinematic community waits feverishly for his next feature– a reunion with THERE WILL BE BLOOD’s Daniel Day-Lewis set in the fashion world of midcentury London and slated for release this Christmas..


HAIM MUSIC VIDEO: “LITTLE OF YOUR LOVE” (2017)

Towards the end of a particularly prolific year of musical collaborations with zeitgeist-y rock icons like Radiohead, director Paul Thomas Anderson embarked on a couple projects with Haim, an indie band comprised of three sisters celebrated for an old-fashioned sound that was nonetheless cutting edge at the same time.

Following the production of their 2017 short film VALENTINE, Anderson and the Haim sisters reunited on a music video for their track “LITTLE OF YOUR LOVE”, an infectious, high-energy pop anthem.  The piece is vintage PTA, adopting a vibe that’s highly reminiscent of his 1997 classic BOOGIE NIGHTS, but it also evidences the remarkable growth he’s undergone in the twenty years since.

The piece is relatively simple in concept, consisting of the Haim sisters singing to camera while dancing along with the crowd in a large tavern.  The execution is anything but, consisting of a series of long takes and fluid tracking shots that almost seem to dance along with the sisters as they sing to camera.  Anderson seems to shoot the video in the same way he shot VALENTINE-– serving as his own cinematographer and shooting on 35mm film.

Aside from the unmistakable BOOGIE NIGHTS vibe, “LITTLE OF YOUR LOVE” bears the signature of its maker through its San Fernando Valley setting (seen in the opening exterior shot with the iconic Hand Car Wash sign of Studio City’s Ventura Boulevard in the background), as well as the constant use of compositional conceits that evoke the style of portraiture.

Following Anderson’s short-form release model as of late, “LITTLE OF YOUR LOVE” dropped out of the sky and landed onto the internet without any advance warning, gifting us with a wholesome little Andersonian snack ahead of his latest feature slated for release this holiday season.  The video itself continues Anderson’s string of simple, yet artfully-imagined performance pieces that bring to the music video genre the same kind of eccentric nuance and inspired vision that he’s brought to bear on theatrical features.


“PHANTOM THREAD” (2017)

As one of the most acclaimed artistic voices in contemporary filmmaking, director Paul Thomas Anderson enjoys a level of prestige that’s virtually unmatched by others of his generation.  He’s gotten to this level by refusing to be anything other than himself: an idiosyncratic kid from southern California’s San Fernando Valley with eccentric artistic tastes and an unabiding compassion for flawed characters.

Having already made no less than two of the most cherished pictures of the 1990’s — BOOGIE NIGHTS (1997) and MAGNOLIA (1999), Anderson had seemingly reached an altogether different zenith starting with 2007’s THERE WILL BE BLOOD.  This film marked a titanic evolution in his artistry, sparked by its intense meditation on the nature of power & ambition as perverted by a ruthless oil tycoon.

2012’s THE MASTER fanned the flames with a similarly-intense exploration filtered through the prism of a Scientology-adjacent cult.  Anderson’s subsequent picture, INHERENT VICE (2014), stumbled slightly in terms of its reception, but has nevertheless managed to endure in our collective cinematic memory thanks to its stoner dream logic.

Most directors who reach this level of artistic excellence are all too happy to stagnate— it’s safer and easier to go with what’s been working, even if it does tend to yield diminishing returns.  Anderson, however, distinguishes himself yet again, having subsequently embarked on a period of intense personal experimentation with several short-form music videos and the verite-style documentary JUNUN (2015).

These projects would serve to refresh his artistic perspective, offering him the opportunity to experiment with new techniques in a pared-down environment.  Anderson is — if nothing else — a master of self-reinvention, and much like his experimentation with short-form slapstick comedy in the early 2000’s was followed by THERE WILL BE BLOOD’s staggering creative revelations, this new period of growth was setting the stage for yet another showcase of his artistic ascent.

 Of course, he would need the right idea, which he found one day while laid up sick in bed and, in his vulnerable state, struck by the tenderness and care evidenced by his wife, actress Maya Rudolph (1).  He found he could plant this tiny seed of emotion into his developing interest in male fashion designers— specifically Cristobal Balenciaga of Spain, whose strict, “monastic” approach to his work/life balance provided the template for Anderson’s emerging concept about a similar figure dressing royalty and socialites in 1950’s London (1).

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The resulting film, 2017’s PHANTOM THREAD, would prove unlike anything Anderson has ever made before; its oblique narrative about the erratic romance between a powerful man and his seemingly-demure wife sublimely coinciding with the zeitgeist of the #TimesUp movement and its unveiling of toxic power structures.

 The film marks something of a ten-year reunion between Anderson and his THERE WILL BE BLOOD star, Daniel Day-Lewis, building upon the intimacy of their previous collaboration to the point that Day-Lewis actively collaborated with Anderson on PHANTOM THREAD’s screenplay (indeed, the director has conceded in interviews that Day-Lewis should have received some sort of co-writing credit (1)).

 The towering nature of Day-Lewis’ performance is to be expected, but his character of the renowned English dressmaker Reynolds Woodcock surprises us at every juncture.  By turns sweet and ferocious, Woodcock’s urbane sophistication & disarming charm floats atop a churning, roiling brew of discipline, ruthlessness, and tar-black venom.

Molded in the template of THERE WILL BE BLOOD’s Daniel Plainview or THE MASTER’s Lancaster Dodd, the conceited titans portrayed in his previous meditations on power, Reynolds Woodcock has chosen to marry himself to his work.  Every waking minute that isn’t spent eating is spent on designing his elegant dresses— an obsession that Day-Lewis imbues with his signature authenticity and studied intensity, thanks to a year of apprenticeship under New York City Ballet’s head costume designer, Marc Happel (1).

 His elegant, impeccably-dressed urbanity fuels this highly-disciplined lifestyle, drawing a steady parade of short-term female companions that are so easily cast aside like unwanted leftovers.

Indeed, the only woman that’s managed to stay close to Woodcock is his sister Cyril, played by Lesley Manville in an Academy Award-nominated performance overflowing with icy pragmatism.  She runs the day-to-day operations of House of Woodcock, allowing Reynolds the freedom to focus on the creative; as such, the two are inseparable, never missing a meal together (much to the chagrin of his short-lived lovers).  Woodcock’s orderly, monastic life is soon upturned by a chance meeting with a waitress at a small cafe in the English countryside.

This demure and quiet woman is named Alma, but underneath her sweet small-town surface lies a fierce, strong-willed spirit that stands in stark contrast to any love interest that Woodcock’s ever encountered.  French actress Vicky Krieps excels in the role, puncturing holes in Woodcock’s ordered lifestyle as she infiltrates deeper into the House of Woodcock’s operation. Their resulting chemistry is unlike any love story we’ve ever seen— one where affection is shown not by kissing or hugging, but by exertions of power.

Woodcock’s hope is that Alma will eventually fit neatly into his rigidly-defined lifestyle, but she refuses to yield to his egomaniacal expectations.  Instead, she strips him down so that she may build him back up better than before. She does this by lacing his food with the powder from a poisonous mushroom— just enough to knock him flat on his back with a nasty fever for a couple days, at which point she can exert her own power by nursing him back to health. It’s an admittedly bizarre approach, to be sure, but it’s also a uniquely compelling and perversely beautiful conceit that speaks to the unmatched idiosyncrasy of Anderson’s storytelling.

With a production budget of $35 million, PHANTOM THREAD distinguishes itself as one of the most expensive films that Anderson has ever made — second only to 1999’s MAGNOLIA (1).  This relatively-lavish spread of resources, furnished by Focus Features and Megan Ellison’s Annapurna Pictures, enables him to realize an elegant vision of mid century European class and sophistication without losing his off-kilter edge.

Anderson employs the classical conceits of old-fashioned filmmaking to reinforce this vision, and in the process creates an economy of craft that’s profoundly subtle and uniquely his.  As one can tell in the organic veneer of grain present throughout (especially in close-up shots that linger on the texture of various fabrics) PHANTOM THREAD was shot on 35mm film, but this — nor Anderson’s continued insistence on celluloid over digital in his theatrical work — is not what distinguishes the film’s cinematography.

Having operated the camera himself on his recent music videos and JUNUN, Anderson had been slowly improving his technical expertise as a cinematographer; when longtime collaborator Robert Elswit proved unavailable to return for PHANTOM THREAD (apparently a result of a rapidly deteriorating professional relationship), he felt his experience was sufficient enough to take on camera duties here as well.  As such, PHANTOM THREAD doesn’t have an officially credited cinematographer.  Anderson simply absorbs those responsibilities into his job description as a director, relying on the wisdom of his gaffers and camera operators (as well as his own intimate knowledge of the format) to get him the results he wants (1).

Said results are nothing short of mesmerizing, with Anderson’s melodramatic rendering of color and light recalling the vivid aesthetic of midcentury directors like Douglas Sirk or Alfred Hitchcock.  Production designer Mark Tildesley assists Anderson’s realization of 1950’s-era London as a world of cold hues, creamy neutrals, and the occasional punch of warmth.

This heavily restricted color palette reflects the regimented order and discipline of the House of Woodcock, further reinforced by the pristine, anonymizing white coats his employees wear.  Indeed, Woodcock’s vibrant dresses are the only source of saturated color, and rightfully so— PHANTOM THREAD’s somber color conceits better allow costume designer Mark Bridges’ Oscar-winning work to leap off the screen with breathtaking ferocity.

The 1.85:1 frame gives Anderson plenty of room to fashion his characteristically-compelling compositions: a beautiful wide shot of Woodcock designing a dress for Alma by the light of the moon comes immediately to mind, as does an extended tracking shot that follows Woodcock through a raucous, labyrinthine New Year’s Eve party as he searches for her amidst the crowd.

Even the close-ups possess a resonance that eludes the work of Anderson’s contemporaries, imbued with a profound magnetism by virtue of his framing of faces in the style of portraiture. Just as the appearance of Alma poses a disruptive force upon Woodcock’s regimented lifestyle, so too does Anderson subvert the elegance of his classical camerawork with the expressionistic techniques of New Hollywood filmmaking: BARRY LYNDON-esque slow zooms, the breaking of the fourth wall, and the occasional handheld shot (its relative scarcity making certain scenes like Woodcock’s woozy, post-poisoning collapse all the more visceral).

Anderson’s public-facing modesty over his supposed inexperience as a cameraman belies his profound grasp of film’s technical aspects.  Indeed, it’s hard to think of any other word than “impeccable” when it comes to describing PHANTOM THREAD’s sterling visual presentation.  As his artistry has matured, Anderson has increasingly shown the kind of comprehensive mastery of the medium exhibited by consummate filmmakers like Stanley Kubrick.

Anderson’s ability to speak the language of key technical departments facilitates strong relationships with recurring collaborators like editor Dylan Tichenor and his producing partners JoAnne Sellar and Daniel Lupi.  PHANTOM THREAD also continues Anderson’s fruitful partnership with composer and Radiohead guitarist Jonny Greenwood, who’s Oscar-nominated work here stands in a class entirely above his previous compositions for the director.

The score lends an elegant romanticism to Anderson’s lush images, employing a classy, piano-based theme that reinforces the urbane sophistication of Woodcock’s world. A handful of sub-themes grow and evolve along with the film’s central romance, gradually adding complex string orchestrations aside from other elements.

This approach culminates in the scene where Alma mixes poison mushrooms into Woodcock’s dinner, with a dramatic, bombastic string arrangement instantly recalling BARRY LYNDON’s usage of Handel’s “Sarabande”— and further reinforcing the Kubrickian atmosphere that Anderson has managed to conjure around the entirety of PHANTOM THREAD.  Several piano renditions of torch songs and jazz standards like “My Foolish Heart” populate the soundtrack, further capturing the distinct time period and contained lifestyles on display.

PHANTOM THREAD roughly follows the thematic template that Anderson fashioned with predecessors like THERE WILL BE BLOOD and THE MASTER, in that the film’s narrative paints a towering portrait of a powerful, complicated, and eccentric man.  Reynolds Woodcock is the natural successor to figures like Daniel Plainview and Lancaster Dodd, each a titan of his own industry, cutting mythic silhouettes that loom over their respective eras.

One could discern these anti-heroes as emblematic of a certain kind of toxic masculinity— one that leverages power and influence in service only to ego, greed, and vanity. They are charismatic in the manipulative manner that these types of people usually are, blessed with a dense, undeniable gravity that pulls other people into their orbit.  Anderson’s characters are guilty pleasures, made particularly attractive by dint of their crackling wit and biting turns of phrase.

His gift for writing idiosyncratic and endlessly-quotable dialogue molds figures like Plainview, Dodd — and now, Woodcock — as eminently-watchable, silver-tongued serpents. This is especially true of Woodcock in particular, his ridiculous name a deliberate decision made by his mischievous creator to perpetually torpedo the dressmaker’s practiced self-seriousness.  He’s always ready with a quip as darkly comedic as it is poison-tipped.

Day-Lewis’ brilliance as an actor is particularly valuable in this regard, giving him an effortless ability to confidently deliver impossible, bizarre lines like “Are you a secret agent here to kill me? Show me your gun!” or “I’m admiring my own gallantry for eating it the way you prepared it”.

Where Woodcock stands apart from figures like Plainview and Dodd is in the fact that he has a companion who can match him blow for blow.  Plainview had no such companion to speak of, even giving up his own adopted son in the pursuit of profit. Dodd’s wife was strong in her own quiet way, preferring instead to work in the shadows and bolster her power by reinforcing her husband’s with an almost-Machiavellian calculation.

PHANTOM THREAD’s Alma possesses a fundamental independence all her own; a resolute defiance that quickly brings Woodcock to heel.  The old saying goes: “behind every great man is a great woman”, but Alma refuses to be a passive agent in Woodcock’s growth.  She has a variety of qualities with which to check Woodcock’s aggression, but — unlike the male protagonists of Anderson’s power portraits — yelling and screaming are not amongst them. She deploys her compassion strategically, quickly making herself indispensable.

Anderson’s decision to frame the narrative from Alma’s point of view allows the audience to more-fully experience her complex inner life, while at the same time revealing more of the personal sensitivity to the female experience that allows him to craft compelling, multidimensional women characters.  Indeed, Alma stands as the latest (and perhaps most vivid) figure in a long procession of memorable heroines throughout the director’s filmography.

With the exception of HARD EIGHT and its Reno setting, nearly all of Anderson’s films have taken place in his native California.  PHANTOM THREAD’s British backdrop marks a significant departure from Anderson’s norm— a development that seems to have sparked a notable shift forward in his artistic evolution.  The experience of watching PHANTOM THREAD, even after having seen it multiple times, is a breathtaking one.

There’s a unique aura that envelopes the film, as if it has already attained the silver glow of classic cinema.  This sheen blinds one from the awareness that it didn’t make very much money at the box office; frankly, its financial performance is an irrelevant footnote in light of Anderson’s monumental artistic achievement.

The word “masterpiece” is thrown around far too often (I’m likely guilty of some misuse myself), but PHANTOM THREAD most certainly qualifies as one when the experience of watching it evokes the same awe and admiration as a timeless film that’s been around for generations.

Unlike many masterpieces of its ilk, however, PHANTOM THREAD would enjoy the luxury of being celebrated in its own time; numerous critics put the film at or near the top of their annual year-end lists, culminating in the aforementioned Oscar nominations for Day-Lewis’ and Manville’s performances and Greenwood’s score, alongside high-profile nods for Best Picture and Best Director (Anderson’s second).

While Best Costume Design was the only one of its nominations to ultimately win a gold statue, PHANTOM THREAD nevertheless continues to accumulate an artistic capital or pedigree far more valuable than any award.

It’s hard to dismiss as mere coincidence that Anderson’s friend and artistic hero Jonathan Demme passed away on the day that PHANTOM THREAD wrapped principal photography (1); Anderson’s own aesthetic evolution had long since superseded Demme’s stylistic influence (once so palpable in early works like BOOGIE NIGHTS), but the latter‘s physical passing in this context feels like a cosmic, posthumous blessing for the former’s artistic development to ascend towards a higher level all his own.

People often invoke Anderson’s name when citing the best living directors, and PHANTOM THREAD serves only to escalate the validity of their claims.  With each successive film, Anderson makes it painfully apparent that his talents are of the kind that only comes around once in a lifetime.  His elegant eccentricity has inspired a generation of emerging filmmakers to follow their own weirdness, ensuring the continued vitality of cinema’s artistic potential.

Anderson’s artistic future remains as unpredictable as the character of his work, but if PHANTOM THREAD is any indication of what might lie in store for his audience, than said future will be utterly unlike anything we’ve seen before.


“HAIM: NIGHT SO LONG (LIVE AT THE GREEK”) MUSIC VIDEO (2018)

Following their series of collaborations throughout 2016 to support the new album “Something To Tell You”, director Paul Thomas Anderson and the buzzy rock band Haim would reunite for yet another music video, released right in the middle of PHANTOM THREAD’s awards season campaign.

The song— “NIGHT SO LONG” — is a spare, gorgeously haunting piece that calls for a matching visual treatment, which Anderson delivers in the form of a live performance during Haim’s sound check and subsequent concert at the famed Greek amphitheater in Los Angeles.  Following in the minimalist tradition of Anderson’s recent music video work, “NIGHT SO LONG” uses its simple construction to better access and capture the transcendent joy or fleeting rapture of musical expression.

Shooting in a low-contrast style with natural light, Anderson — likely operating the camera himself — initially captures the Haim sisters as close-up faces singing into a microphone.  There is little to no context, until a hard cut to a wider shot reveals the girls are performing on a stage by the light of the low-hanging sun. Anderson then shows us the empty amphitheater sprawled out before them, before a hard cut drops the veil of night on top of them and fills the seats with a crowd of fans waving their phones.

 The piece ends where we started, back on a closeup of the band as they finish their sound check, albeit with the audio swapped out for that night’s live performance— leaving us with an invisible crowd of cheering ghosts while the sisters resign themselves to their introspection.

Anderson’s recent string of minimalist music videos differentiate themselves from the pack by embracing subtlety and nuance over flash, or ideological concepts over technical ones.  It’s a testament to his confidence and skill as a filmmaker that he’s able to so quickly and succinctly convey the breadth of his artistic signatures in the space of 5-6 cuts, while still ceding said signatures to the back seat in order to direct our focus onto the band’s own artistry.

 The track is a beautiful, yet unexpected closer to an otherwise infectiously-energetic album, as is Anderson’s visual realization of the emotional truths behind it.

Beyond its immediate pop culture value, videos like “NIGHT SO LONG” stand to remind us of their creators’ continually-evolving relationship to the cinematic medium; that even brilliant and insanely-accomplished directors like Anderson are still finding new avenues of expression within it disproves the idea that the cinema is an outdated art from best relegated to the twentieth century.  Indeed, as long as there’s practitioners like Anderson, the medium still has plenty of life in it yet.


“ANIMA” (2019)

Director Paul Thomas Anderson is quite obviously well-regarded for his contributions to the theatrical feature space.  Case in point: his last three films — THE MASTER (2012), INHERENT VICE (2014) and PHANTOM THREAD (2017) —- were included in a recent (if somewhat premature) ranking by Indiewire of the 100 best films of the decade.  However, there’s another case to be made for his short-form output as perhaps his most radical, experimental, and exhilarating work.\

  His recent string of music videos for Radiohead, Joanna Newsom, and Haim has created an organic creative space for Anderson to refine and reshape his artistic voice with innovative new techniques unfettered by the demands of three-act narrative structure.  Anderson also uses these projects to experiment with alternative distribution strategies, whether it be a surprise online release or an exclusive limited engagement at a repertory theater with serious indie street cred. It seems only natural, then, that Anderson would one day collaborate with Netflix, the current reigning championship of “alternative” distribution.

Shot in May of 2019 — a scant month or two before its release on the streaming platform — Anderson’s semi-futuristic short ANIMA distinguishes itself as one of the most radical, visually-striking works of his career.  Described by Anderson and Radiohead frontman Thom Yorke as a “one-reeler” (a term from the silent-film era), ANIMA unspools across a dystopian cityscape over the course of fifteen fleet-footed minutes, driven by the idiosyncratic rhythms of three music tracks from Yorke’s eponymous solo album.

The title of both the film and the album is derived from Carl Jung’s theories on dreams and the collective unconscious (1), suffusing an otherwise-simplistic narrative with a rich subtext about the inner chaos that animates us as well as the ceaseless difficulty of pushing back against the conformity of modern life.

Anderson mixes the undeniable influence of dystopian parables like 1984 with the absurdist physicality of silent-era stars like Buster Keaton or Charlie Chaplin to arrive at a wholly unique, bemusing tone. In short, the narrative follows Yorke’s character as he tries to return a forgotten briefcase to a mysterious woman (York’s real-life partner Dajana Roncione).  His journey unfolds like a sprawling dream, taking him from the twisting underground labyrinth of the city subway system on through to a cavernous quarry-like space.

The piece culminates in Yorke fighting against gravity itself on an abstractified white plane before he’s able to emerge onto the nocturnal streets of a European city and reunite with the woman on a streetcar just before the sun begins to rise.  The choreography, by SUSPIRIA’s Damien Jalet, reinforces the dreamlike nature of ANIMA’s story, forcing the frames’s subjects to contort themselves into impossible shapes that further abstractify Yorke’s surroundings.

After serving as his own cinematographer through his string of short works as well as PHANTOM THREAD, Anderson invites seasoned DP Darius Khondji to shoot ANIMA using a mixture of film and large-format digital acquisition.  A fine layer of organic grain blends the two formats seamlessly, better allowing for a subtle emphasis on their differences: the clean stability of the Alexa 65 image versus the constrained tension of film (it’s unclear whether ANIMA’s film segments were captured on 35mm or on the larger 65mm gauge to better match the digital resolution).

  Anderson’s first-ever collaboration with Khondji yields stunning results, with Khondji’s decades of expertise melding quite seamlessly with Anderson’s strength of vision and own technical mastery of the craft.  ANIMA was shot almost entirely on location, in various urban and subterranean locales around France and Prague.  Following in the tradition of George Lucas’ THX 1138 or Andrei Tarkovsky’s STALKER, the dystopian atmosphere is implied rather than visibly constructed, achieved through a painstaking curation of appropriate real-world locations, costumes and color.

One of the earliest images shows a subway car full of people in the same dark overcoat, cut in an ultra-modern, future-adjacent silhouette. The sameness of the costumes underlines the dystopic, conformist environment into which Yorke is dropped, all the while complementing the slate-beige neutrality of the subway stations, underground industrial cavern, and above-grade streetscapes.

By leaning heavily into earth tones in his locations and costumes, Anderson is able to leverage pops of bright color to striking effect— take the candy-red support poles in the subway car for instance, or the electric chartreuse of the streetcar’s signage. Even the simple contrast between pure blacks and whites sears the eye, best evidenced in the middle section where Yorke battles society and gravity alike atop an unsteady blank plane.

Anderson and Khondji utilize a combination of handheld camerawork and classical tracking movements to reinforce the probing, dreamlike nature of ANIMA as a whole, while the lenses required by the choice to shoot in large-format mediums creates a shallow depth of field that facilitates Anderson’s continued exploration of portraiture’s compositional conceits.  Ethereal lens flares and impressionistic, looming shadows cast onto stone walls further add to the allegorical, highly-experimental nature of ANIMA’s presentation.

Despite Netflix’s rapid emergence as the entertainment industry’s “establishment” over traditional studio structures, it’s somewhat fitting that Anderson’s most abstract work to date would, following an initial limited IMAX release, make its wide debut on a platform wholly dedicated to shattering theatrical norms.

Like much of his recent short-form work, ANIMA’s audacious technical presentation leaves little room for Anderson’s thematic signatures— Yorke’s quest for connection with the mysterious woman echoes the constant search for a sense of family and belonging so often undertaken by his characters, placing ANIMA most in-line with PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE over any other particular film of his.

That said, ANIMA’s very existence makes one acutely aware of the need for Anderson to tackle a future dystopian setting in his feature work; the world on display here  would make for a compelling backdrop upon which Anderson could further the themes of family, power, and idiosyncratic identity that shape his inimitable voice.  For the time being, however, the virtuoso visuals throughout ANIMA will have to sustain our speculation about what new direction Anderson’s unpredictable artistry will take.


HAIM: “SUMMER GIRL” MUSIC VIDEO (2019)

It appears that director Paul Thomas Anderson and I are engaged in a strange dance: every time I think I’m up to-do-date with my essays on his work, he goes and drops a new piece that takes the film world completely by surprise.  This time, however, I was ready, thanks to a cryptic teaser photo that popped up on Instagram last week featuring Anderson with the Haim sisters in front of the New Beverly Cinema in LA, the celebrated director holding a fresh 35mm reel of film labeled “SUMMER GIRL” set to be threaded up on the projector that evening.  Thankfully, the wait wasn’t long for the rest of us.

Set to the new Haim single of the same name, “SUMMER GIRL” positions itself in perfect creative harmony with Anderson’s previous collaborations with the band.  As other music videos become increasingly more complex and cinematic, Anderson’s contributions to the medium have simplified into brilliantly-executed performance videos centered around a core visual idea.

On a surface level, “SUMMER GIRL” finds the band performing to camera as they waltz through various iconic locales around LA— we see them chowing down at Canter’s Deli on Fairfax, selling tickets at the Quentin Tarantino-owned New Beverly Cinema on Beverly, and strutting down the San Fernando Valley’s Laurel Canyon Boulevard shopping strip.

All the while, they pull off endless layers of coats, sweaters and t-shirts, as if digging down to the state of endless summer that inhabits their very essence (signified by the bathing suits that are ultimately revealed). That LA doesn’t have easily-discernible seasons is an amusing paradoxical fact that surely must not have been lost on Anderson.

The video’s stripped-down technical execution is consistent with Anderson’s other recent music video work, likely with Anderson himself operating the 35mm film camera.  The piece favors shallow focus and natural light, harnessing the golden glow of the late afternoon sun to imbue the Haim sisters with a summery luminescence.

Anderson’s constant use of tracking movements also lend a kinetic, fleet-footed energy, beginning with the documentary-style realism of a handheld camera only to bust out a butter-smooth Steadicam for the climactic vignette.  It’s not a particularly flashy video, but Anderson nevertheless infuses it with the intangible aura of a master filmmaker at work; his confidence with technique and his clarity of vision result in an elevated watching experience that stands out amongst the din of an oversaturated market.

Born from a place of melancholy and uncertainty (front woman Danielle Haim wrote the song for her partner as he was undergoing treatment for cancer), “SUMMER GIRL” asserts itself through the prism of Anderson’s eye as an ode to that indomitable California spirit: eternally youthful and vibrant, confident in its own skin, and poised to lead the way into a golden, sun-soaked future.


Author Cameron Beyl is the creator of The Directors Series and an award-winning filmmaker of narrative features, shorts, and music videos.  His work has screened at numerous film festivals and museums, in addition to being featured on taste making online media platforms like Vice Creators Project, Slate, Popular Mechanics, and Indiewire. 

THE DIRECTORS SERIES is an educational collection of video and text essays by filmmaker Cameron Beyl exploring the works of contemporary and classic film directors. 

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The Original Dirk Diggler & The Early Films of Paul Thomas Anderson

I can remember when a young director by the name Paul Thomas Anderson released a remarkably good film called Boogie Nights back in 1997. The film was kind of a small bomb going off in the film industry.

Anderson made by far the best feature film about the groove porn business of the 1970s. Anderson was able to take extremely sleazy topic and elevate it to high art with his brilliant direction, camerawork and amazing performances.

Click below to read the screenplay for Boogie Nights and watch some of his early films, including the original Boogie Nights, his short The Dirk Diggler Story, as well as Cigarettes and Coffee, his hard to find short film.

Anderson is infamous for dropping out of NYU film school after two weeks. Here’s why:

My filmmaking education consisted of finding out what filmmakers I liked were watching, then seeing those films. I learned the technical stuff from books and mags, and with the new technology you can watch entire movies accompanied by commentary from the director. You can learn more from John Sturge’s audio track on the Bad Day at Black Rock Laserdisc than you can in 4 years of film school. Film school is a complete con, because the information is there if you want it.

The Dirk Diggler Story  wonderful mockumentary short film shot in 1988 and written and directed by one of the best working directors alive, Paul Thomas Anderson. It tracks the rise and fall of the fictitious Dirk Diggler, a very well-endowed porn actor. The character is based on legendary porn star John Holmes.

Download and Read Paul Thomas Anderson’s Screenplay Collection in PDF


The Original Dirk Diggler

Anderson’s first work is admittedly lo-fi, filming on videotape partly out of necessity, but also because of the inherent video aesthetic of both the documentary and pornography formats.  Anderson’s penchant for constantly moving the camera is already evident in THE DIRK DIGGLER STORY, seeing him utilize both handheld and Steadicam-based camera moves that roam the space and adjust the composition mid-record to lend a degree of immediacy and realism.

The documentary footage is interspersed with staged still photographs and taped interviews with the characters, further riffing on the style ofTHIS IS SPINAL TAP.

Because the year was 1988 and computer-based nonlinear editing suites had yet to become commonplace, (and editing video on a flatbed Steenbeck was impractical), Anderson had to edit THE DIRK DIGGLER STORY using the archaic, terminally frustrating VCR to VCR method.

The bane of many a young filmmaker’s existence in the 90’s, the method consisted of tediously syncing up a desired take on one VCR, recording it to a blank VHS tape on the second deck, hitting pause and then finding the next chronological shot from the original footage.  Any mistake meant you had to rewind the tape to just before the error and start over again.

It was a horrible process that also completely destroyed the quality of the footage, in addition to probably discouraging a significant number of would-be directors from pursuing the profession.

Several of Anderson’s defining thematic conceits make their first appearance in THE DIRK DIGGLER STORY, like a constantly-moving camera and the presence of an omniscient narrator (best employed in 1999’s MAGNOLIA), who here is voiced by Anderson’s father, Ernie.  What really strikes me about the DIRK DIGGLER STORY is the presence of a palpable family dynamic amongst this group of pornographers.

The family angle would later be played to a more substantial degree in BOOGIE NIGHTS, but already we get the sense that Anderson has a genuine love for these characters, like they’re a part of his own family.  They depend on each other, they need each other, they are not complete without each other.

At a very core level, Anderson’s films are about people trying to find their place in a family unit, and those who actively turn away from the embrace of family are met with tragedies like accidental death (Dirk Diggler in this film), murder/suicide (William H. Macy in BOOGIE NIGHTS), or abandonment (Daniel Day-Lewis in 2007’s THERE WILL BE BLOOD).

As an early draft of BOOGIE NIGHTSTHE DIRK DIGGLER STORY story is already interesting on its own merits, but what makes it even more compelling from my standpoint is how fully-formed Anderson’s filmmaking voice already seems.  The fact that this short follows BOOGIE NIGHTS’ general plot progression shows how long Anderson had spent developing the idea while conveying his gift for interesting, unique stories.

Despite being shot on shoddy video, the film has a certain polish that places it above what 99% of aspiring, pre-film-school directors are capable of.  There’s not a lot of directors that most can say were born to be a filmmaker, but in the case of Anderson, it’s a notion that’s nearly impossible to deny.


CIGARETTES & COFFEE (1993)

When it was time for director Paul Thomas Anderson to go to college, he naturally went the film school route, like so many other would-be directors did before him.  He was admitted to Boston’s Emerson College as an English major, lasting for 2 semesters (it seems like all the prominent Emersonians are actually dropouts).  Unsatisfied with his education there, he enrolled in NYU’s film school, and he was there all of two days before he decided that the institution of film school in general held no benefit for him.

Instead, he decided to make a short that would serve as his “film school”, so to speak.  He scraped together funding with $10,000 his father, Ernie Anderson, had squirreled away for college tuitions, and supplemented that with some gambling winnings and his girlfriend’s credit card.  Once funding was complete, he worked with producer Wendy Weidman to secure a desert diner location for a weekend of shooting, as well as a camera package donation from Panavision.

This one weekend soon ballooned into a much longer shoot as production issues and on-the-job training caused no shortage of hiccups for the burgeoning director.  The final result was CIGARETTES & COFFEE (1993), a weaving narrative about three sets of characters connected together by a single twenty dollar bill.  The film debuted to an incredibly warm reception at the 1993 Sundance Festival, effectively kickstarting Anderson’s directing career into high gear.

In a diner in the middle of the desert, a variety of transient souls come and go, on their way to destinations unknown.  In this particular moment, at this particular diner, several of the patrons are unknowingly connected to each other by a twenty dollar bill that has passed between them.  In one booth, an elderly man (Philip Baker Hall) has met his squirrely younger friend (Kirk Baxter), who reveals that he’s discovered his wife to be cheating on him with his best friend, and he fears it might be too late to stop the hit he’s ordered on them both.

Two booths over, a newlywed couple in the middle of their honeymoon are quarreling over the wife’s loss of a significant amount of the husband’s money at a casino gambling table. Outside the diner, a mysterious lone man has arrived and conducts a mysterious conversation in a phone booth.  The twenty dollar bill unifies the characters in some kind of cosmic conspiracy, all tied together by the time-honored ritual of brutally honest conversation over cigarettes and coffee.

Anderson’s deep knowledge of film history and obscure character actors is highly evident in CIGARETTES & COFFEE.  The piece is anchored by Philip Baker Hall, a venerated performer who has since become a key player in Anderson’s repertory. His calm, collected delivery grounds the film and sets the tone just so.  Getting Hall on board was something of a coup for Anderson, who approached him on the set of a CBS TV movie that the two were on together (Baker as an actor, Anderson as a lowly production assistant).

Anderson gave Baker the script to the short, and Baker was generous enough to take a gamble on this unruly, untested young director.  Anderson also recruited the help of Kirk Baltz, who had previously made a name for himself as the unfortunate cop Marvin Nash in Quentin Tarantino’s RESERVOIR DOGS a year earlier.

  Additionally, Baltz acted as a producer and was instrumental in getting the film made.  Scott Coffey and Miguel Ferrer round out the cast, with everyone turning in fine performances that make Anderson’s direction look confident and competent, considering this is his first real time at bat.

Anderson has made a name for himself with his precise, classical approach to composition and camera movement. Unconcerned with modern, trendy techniques like “shaky cam” or rapid-fire editing, he takes his cues from the revered directors of yesteryear.  CIGARETTES & COFFEE is the first evidence of this aesthetic, lensed by cinematographers Vincent Baldino and David Phillips.

  Shot on handsome color film, the short is a far cry from the washed-out analog video of THE DIRK DIGGLER STORY (1988).  At least, I think it is—the only copy available to view is sourced from a rather degraded VHS tape, and I have no idea if a pristine transfer is out there somewhere.

The first thing I noticed about CIGARETTES & COFFEE’s visual presentation is somewhat of an abstract, intangible thing—but there is such precision to Anderson’s compositions in the piece.  Every shot is thoroughly considered, telling the most amount of story with minimal force.  This is echoed in his camerawork, which glides on dollies and Steadicam rigs fluidly and flawlessly.  Like his peer Tarantino, Anderson uses punchy insert shots sparingly, using them as bold punctuation rather than detailed cutaways.

Furthermore, there’s a distinct California vibe here, despite the story itself possibly being set in Nevada.  Having lived his entire life in the state, Anderson’s work examines the nature and psychology of California more so than any other contemporary director.  Almost of all of his work is set in California—specifically the San Fernando Valley where he was born—and explores the weird and wonderful characters that inhabit it.

This part of his style is better realized in his features, but CIGARETTES & COFFEE has elements of California-ca (?) in its dusty diner setting, beat up muscle cars and sunshade-wearing mystery men.

The early period of Anderson’s career was heavily influenced by Robert Altman.  Both men made ensemble films that followed a variety of colorful characters instead of a traditional plot with a singular protagonist.  While these characters initially seem very disconnected from each other and thrust into a sprawling narrative, Anderson pulls the various story threads tighter together to form a coherent mosaic centered around a singular theme or idea.

In CIGARETTES & COFFEE, we have three separate sets of characters who, on their face, are completely uninvolved in each other’s affairs.  However, they are each united by a particular twenty dollar bill that has passed between them.  Possession of this bill brings different fortunes to different owners—some lose everything, some gain only a little, and for some, it’s simply a routine business transaction.

CIGARETTES & COFFEE is undoubtedly the work that launched Anderson’s career.  Its selection into the Sundance Film Festival’s shorts program brought him to the attention of the industry’s best and brightest.  The Sundance Institute even invited him to develop the short into a feature at their directing labs, a program that also helped Tarantino launch his first feature.

In the labs, Anderson got a film education much more valuable than the one he sought and failed to find from Emerson College and New York University.  In Park City, Utah, he learned from the best and honed his skills—all while developing his first full-length feature he liked to call SYDNEY, but we’d come to know as HARD EIGHT (1996).

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IFH 534: Swingers, Scream & Rudy – The Art of Producing with Cary Woods

Today on the show we have legendary film producer Cary Woods. 

Cary Woods is a film producer best known for producing worldwide blockbusters such as Scream and Godzilla, the beloved independent films Kids, Cop Land, and Gummo, and modern classics like Rudy and Swingers.

Woods is also responsible for producing the breakthrough features of such notable directors as James Mangold, Doug Liman, M. Night Shyamalan, Alexander Payne, Harmony Korine, and Larry Clark, as well as the screenwriting debuts of Jon Favreau, Kevin Williamson, and Scott Rosenberg.

Woods’ filmography features a lineup of A-List actors, including: Robert Downey, Jr., Robert De Niro, Sylvester Stallone, Marisa Tomei, Christopher Walken, Harvey Keitel, Mike Myers, Laura Dern, Heather Graham, Ray Liotta, Burt Reynolds, Drew Barrymore, Matthew Broderick, Courteney Cox, Timothy Hutton, Andy Garcia, Neve Campbell, Sean Astin, Michael Rapaport, Jean Reno, and Steve Buscemi.

Born and raised in the Bronx, Woods graduated from the USC Gould School of Law before beginning his career at the William Morris Agency (now WME). As an agent, Woods represented – and in many cases introduced audiences to – the likes of Gus Van Sant, Uma Thurman, Jennifer Connelly, Milla Jovovich, Charlie Sheen, Matt Dillon, Todd Solondz, and most prominently, Gregory Peck.

At WMA, Woods also represented many of the industry’s most successful stand-up comedians including Sam Kinison, Andrew Dice Clay, Gilbert Gottfried, Sandra Bernhard, Tommy Davidson, and Jackie Mason.

After developing the Indie favorites Heathers and Drugstore Cowboy as an agent, Woods accepted a position at Sony Pictures Entertainment (the parent company of Columbia Pictures and TriStar Pictures) as a Vice President – Office of the Chairman, reporting directly to Peter Guber. Woods later segued to a production deal at Sony, resulting in the release of a succession of iconic films, including So I Married An Axe Murderer, Rudy, Only You, and Threesome.

After starting his own production company – Independent Pictures – the explosive release of the 1995 cultural phenomenon Kids (starring then-newcomers Rosario Dawson and Chloe Sevigny) began a streak of culturally significant, critically-acclaimed independent films produced by Woods under his banner.

The next few years saw the releases of Citizen Ruth (the first film from future two-time Oscar winner Alexander Payne), Beautiful Girls (which introduced American audiences to Natalie Portman), and Swingers (springboarding Vince Vaughn to comedy mega-stardom).

His 1996 film Scream (the most successful film of “Master of Horror” Wes Craven’s career) marked a turning point for the entire genre, grossing over $170 million and setting a box office record that would stand for 22 years. The film instantly and single-handedly pivoted horror toward postmodernism, spawning a massive billion-dollar franchise (consisting of successful sequels, a TV series, toys, and Halloween costumes), as well as inspiring countless knock-offs in the years since.

Gummo – the directorial debut of Kids’ screenwriter Harmony Korine – received the FIPRESCI Prize at the 1997 Venice Film Festival. Bernando Bertolucci, the famed director of Last Tango in Paris, praised the film, calling it “The one revolutionary film of the late 20th century.”

In 1998, the first US-produced entry of the iconic Godzilla film franchise would become Woods’ and Independent Pictures’ single highest-grossing film, earning nearly $400 million.

Woods would go on to serve as co-Chairman, and Chief Creative Officer of Plum TV, in which he was a founding partner. Broadcasting in the nation’s most affluent markets (i.e. Aspen, the Hamptons, Miami Beach), the luxury lifestyle network would go on to earn eight Emmy Awards.

Enjoy my conversation with Cary Woods.

Right-click here to download the MP3

 

Alex Ferrari 2:20
Well guys today on the show, we have legendary film producer, Cary Woods. Cary has, he's produced some films that have been very, very important in my life over the years. And I'm just going to list off a handful of the projects that he's produced from So I Married an Axe Murderer Rudy, kids, the legendary swingers scream, Cop Land, M Night Shyamalan first film wide awake, and even going all the way from Indy to the big budget Godzilla from the 90s. I mean, Cary has done it all. And I want to have Cary on the show to just dive into what he does what a producer does, and to discuss these amazing films, and how he got involved with them, and so on. So this is really not only entertaining, but also fairly educational. So get ready to take some notes. So without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Cary Woods. I'd like to welcome to the show Cary Woods how are you doin' Cary?

Cary Woods 3:33
Thank you very much love being here.

Alex Ferrari 3:36
I I've been a fan of your work as a producer for many years. You know, me coming up in the 90s. As a young filmmaker, I was influenced by many of the films that you worked on. And we're going to we're going to go down memory lane a little bit and I'm sure from our other conversations, I know that you've got some good stories.

Cary Woods 4:02
Well, I'm flattered.

Alex Ferrari 4:04
So how did you get started in the business?

Cary Woods 4:09
Well, I went to Southern California to go to law school. And I did so at the University of Southern California law school. Not long thereafter, I realized I didn't really want to be a practicing lawyer and and I loved film. And being the guy from the Bronx, the notion that I was going to come to California and end up in the film business would have been like you're telling me I was going to be an astronaut. But if you're in Southern California news, throws stone you're gonna hit somebody who either is or who has a relative in the film business from a television business, which I did at law school. And nonetheless, long story short, I made my way into the William Morris mailroom passed the law school.

Alex Ferrari 5:03
Very cool. And that's it. That's where many, many a career has started.

Cary Woods 5:10
Excuse me?

Alex Ferrari 5:11
That is how many, many have a career in Hollywood have started it?

Cary Woods 5:16
Yeah, I'm definitely not alone with the William Morris mailroom as a starting place.

Alex Ferrari 5:22
Now, how did you get from the mailroom to producing your first project?

Cary Woods 5:27
Well, um, my first project do you mean as a as a film producer?

Alex Ferrari 5:33
As a film producer correct.

Cary Woods 5:35
Well, I had ended up working as an executive at Sony Pictures for join Peters and Peter Guber, I was hired as an executive working for them. And when seemed I just didn't want to be a studio executive. I wanted to be a movie producer. And I had a friend Rob freed who had a production deal at Columbia, which is where I was, and I was given the deal there. And Rob had been working on a movie called sewing Married an Axe Murderer. And I think at the time, he was developing it and Chevy Chase was attached to play the lead. But we weren't getting any traction. And I had a friend who was an agent at Uta, her name was Cynthia Shelton, and she represented Mike Myers, who I was a gigantic fan of on Saturday Night Live. And she thought that the part would be great for Mike. So I said, Well, you know, I love Mike. Let's see what he thinks. He reads a script. He really, really likes it. He wants to make a substantial amount of changes, but we love all of the ideas that he had. And he did make those changes. And then we were lucky enough to then have Wayne's World come out and pretty much making the biggest comedy star in the world. And so Tristar, which was where the movie was set up, was thrilled to have Mike Mars now be the star. So I Married an Axe Murderer.

Alex Ferrari 7:19
And you rode the Wayne Wayne's World tidal wave.

Cary Woods 7:24
Well, you know, it's like when you have the guy who just starred in the biggest comedy of the year before starring in your comedy. Movie, it's kind of a stroke of luck.

Alex Ferrari 7:38
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And you also you worked with Peter Gubers. Who, who are obviously, you know, legendary film producers, what were what were some of the lessons you took away from working with them.

Cary Woods 7:55
Peter was incredibly first of all he's very, very smart in you can't teach that. But he was an incredibly organized guy. So we would get on the plane, and he would take out a sheet of paper, and he would go over his to do list and his to do list would be anywhere from 20 to 50 things that you would be constantly reviewing of things, projects that you were doing together. And so that you would basically I mean, and there was no particular time of day that you would be going over them. I we were together a lot. And he would go you having a to do list and I go Yeah, and goes, Okay, let's, let's go through it. You know, and it'd be like, Okay, what's going on with this? And what's going on with that. And basically, it was just a sense that projects are constantly on, you know, the reading the moving forward, or, or nothing's happening. And when you go through those lists, it's sometimes painfully obvious that you haven't done anything on something for a few days or a few weeks, or whatever it is, but he was tightly in control of everything that he wanted to get done. And so yeah, so that was pretty much a pretty good learning experience.

Alex Ferrari 9:09
So I've been asked so many times over my career, what a producer does carry. And you know, the question is such a loaded question, because there's so many different kinds of producers. But in your opinion, what does a producer do on a on a feature film, let's say?

Cary Woods 9:25
Well, you know, I'll go back and make that same pun, which is, how long as a piece of string? I mean, really, there are so many different types of producers. I mean, I think one, probably one of the best ways to do it is isn't talk about it is that without whatever contribution that person made, there would be no movie. You know, that's a producer. If that person didn't exist, you would have never seen that movie. You can be a little bit less strict about it and say, okay, the movie wouldn't have been the same movie it would have gotten made. But it would not have been the same movie without that person. Sometimes good sometimes bad. Yeah, the academy actually has rules about it, which is that it used to be to be a member of the Academy, Producers Guild, you had to have two credits, but they couldn't be shared amongst more than two people. So if you shared credit with one other person, you got to have a point. And you needed four of those to equal to, if there were three or more, it counted for nothing. So that's the way the academy strictly looked at produce. I don't know if it still does. I mean, I joined many years ago, and I was asked, Well, do you have four credits? And I said, Well, yeah. And but I didn't realize that that was the math that we used to be curious to see if that's the way it's still done. But they basically, were recognizing that there was two producers that were required there. Now you can have, I don't even know how many producers but I don't even know if there is a number. That is can you have 30? I don't know, I don't really know the

Alex Ferrari 11:17
I'll tell you what I worked up. I worked on a project that had 30 producers, because I did the credits on it. And my God, it must have taken me two weeks just to do the credits, because everybody's like, Well, my name is above this, and I have a shared card with this. And where's how big the font? Oh, it's insanity.

Cary Woods 11:35
My guess would be that we're not for I think they're probably a few of those that had they not existed, the film probably still would

Alex Ferrari 11:45
Couple probably a couple

Cary Woods 11:48
It took the strict definition, then that would be I mean, you know, a producer makes the movie happened, it doesn't, you know, either the movie wouldn't have happened wouldn't have happened in the same way, then there's no point in their executive producers

Alex Ferrari 12:05
Co-producers

Cary Woods 12:07
Or can make a significant contribution. I mean, line producers, the people are on the field actually putting the movie together physically. They don't often get producer credit, they get co producer or associate producer, Executive Producer, they physically make the movie, like I count them among people, without whom there wouldn't be a movie, you know. So there's a lot of different kinds, and basically, some contribute and actually make the movie or make the movie better. And some don't, you know, and that's, that's what it comes down to.

Alex Ferrari 12:42
So you you made a movie earlier in your career that it obviously impacted me. And of course, I can't watch it without crying even to this day, which is Rudy, how did you bring a story like that to the big screen? I mean, it doesn't seem like a automatic blockbuster idea.

Cary Woods 13:04
Well, Rudy is the producer of the movie, Rudy you know, he felt that this was a movie. He felt his story was a movie. And there was a brilliant sports movie called Hoosiers. Also an Indiana sports movie that was written by Angelo Pizzo, the same person who and and Rudy loved that movie and being Rudy. He meaning he wasn't going to let anything get in his way. He came out to Los Angeles and he found Angelo Pizzo. And he said, I want to tell you my story. And Angelo being the kind of guy he is he's a great guy didn't slam the door face and said, Yeah, I mean, come on in and he starts telling them the story. And Angelo, thanks. Yeah, that's, if that's a true story. That's a movie. And Angela starts writing it. And I mean, Rudy is the, you know, the movies about him. But he, he's the he is the producer of the movie in many, many ways. He didn't get it made. But if you think about the person who first saw an idea, a story and said, Wow, that could be a movie. In this instance, that person was rude. And it was also Angelo after that, who confirmed it and wrote it. But yeah, that's how that happened.

Alex Ferrari 14:28
And how'd you get involved?

Cary Woods 14:30
And then I got involved because my partner, Rob freed. This was one of the projects that he had percolating when we joined together at Columbia. And, and it was right at the beginning of the project getting going in and then David, on SPA or director met Sean Aston in Chicago, and called the SAP and said I've got our Rudy, when he said, What do you mean? He goes, I mean, he was showing us and Rudy Rudy was involved in every part of that movie because he was just that kind of infectious guy. So just around. And Rudy felt that Shawn Aston should be rooting. And then that was it. Now, at the time, Sean asked, and wasn't the big star casting Sean asked and didn't really help us with the studio saying, Oh, this movie, but that Shawn was perfect for the part, you know, obviously, and we just went at it. This is the guy

Alex Ferrari 15:41
And then did you and then you peppered and you peppered a bunch of good actors, and very known, respected actors around Sean, to kind of round out the cast.

Cary Woods 15:53
It was never really a cast heavy or star heavy thing. It was just based on the fact that it was a true story. I mean, we had tape of Joe Montana on the Sunday morning show where they asked literally, they asked him what was the most exciting sport? What happened the most striking moments for you in sports, and he starts to tell the Rooney story. He goes, Well, when I was a sophomore at Notre Dame, he starts telling story, Joe Montana, and we had this on, that we were showing to the studio guys, you know, because we were saying this, these are the kinds of people are going to come out this movie for us. I mean, we did so much there's so much into getting a studio behind the movie. I mean, one of the things that happened when this was because I had worked for Peter Guber before I you know, turned it into a producing deal with Sony, I invited him to one of the Notre Dame games that year they were in the top five or 10 and there was a game against Michigan, if anybody's not a college football fan, this will bore you but if you are, you're going to love it and we invited him to come to that game. And you know, we got him seats on the 50 yard line in that morning, you know, they were gonna fly in on the Sony jet had a bunch put together a Notre Dame pack of like, you know, a fanny pack and a scarf and gloves and they will all put it in each of their seats on the plane without them knowing about it so that when they came on the plane, they had all the stuff flying out to South Bend for the game where they were when the plane was meant on by a South Bend Police Force and driven in to the stadium you know, with you know, police sirens blaring and then went were brought into the tunnel so that they could come in the tunnel to their seats. I mean, we did like a whole thing. And you know, they loved it and obviously you want the studio to be beat this was in the middle of production you want the studio to be in to your movie and to love it be that matter as it relates to their How much are they going to spend on it? What dates are they gonna put it out and all of that plus it was incredible fun.

Alex Ferrari 18:22
Yeah, I couldn't imagine I can only imagine Yeah, I remember seeing it in the theater. I remember when it came out. Everyone was just you know, it's one of those it's it's always on the like the top 10 sports movies of all time because of Rudy story. It's pretty remarkable. Honestly. This whole store

Cary Woods 18:41
Angelo Pizzo and David Anspaugh, the director credible. I mean, the those same two guys did Hoosiers, which arguably is another movie among the top 10 best sports films and like, same guy. Yeah. You know, and they're both Deanna they both went to school at Indiana. They were college roommates. I mean, they are Indiana, Indiana.

Alex Ferrari 19:07
Now, how did you go from a film like Rudy? And I'm not sure if it was the very next one. But I know it was a couple movies down to kids. Which is it? I remember going to the theater to see kids. It's, you know, obviously the legendary Larry Clark made that. I remember seeing it in the theater. I don't know how old I was. I must have been Oh, I was older than the kids in the movie. But not by much probably about five or six years. And I just was like, How Did This Get Made? How did this get out? And and I remember hearing but like it's you know, it's there's so much hoopla about a film like that. How did you get involved in with kids and how to come to life?

Cary Woods 19:50
Well, Gus when I was Gus Van Sant, first agent at William Morris. And, you know, we obviously remained friends after I After I went off to be a producer, and he called me up and he said, you know, hey, look, I got this script, you know, Larry Clark is directing it. It's incredible. I mean, he just went on about how much he loved it, and how much you love this writer and blah, blah, blah, what I read it because no one's gonna make it. And I said, I'd love to read it. And I had, literally about three weeks earlier met with these guys who were about to, they were, they were gonna invest about five to $10 million into the film business. And we're talking to me about things that we could potentially do together. So I read the script. And he sent me that and Ken part, two scripts at Harmony Queen wrote, and I literally either read them in the same night, or one night after another, I couldn't believe what I was reading, because it was, it was so fresh and so original. It's he was writing about a generation that he was part of, and usually it takes about seven to 10 years for somebody to become old enough to write about that generation. So if you're writing about in 1617 year olds, usually you're about 25 When you write, but harmony was writing it when he was 17. So he was living it and writing it. And it was incredible. And so he told me harmony is coming to LA and would I meet him? And, and I did and, you know, he looked like he was 15. And, and we just spent the day. I mean, I knew he was gonna make the movie after I read the script. And then I flew to New York immediately to meet with Larry. And, and then that was it. I called the guys and I said, I think I found our first movie. And, you know, and I sent it to them. And, you know, they said, I mean, I'm still to this day match you if they've ever read it or not. But I was extremely enthusiastic. And, you know, it was, it was really, really fresh and exciting. And Larry had, I mean, talking Larry, it was like he had directed 20 move. He didn't have an iota of doubt about what he was gonna do with that movie. And, you know, so so we went forward.

Alex Ferrari 22:31
And that kind of I mean, it was also a young, a young Rosario Dawson was her first project. I mean, you guys literally plucked her off the stoop, didn't you in New York, right?

Cary Woods 22:42
Barry and harmony walking in the Lower East Side. And her mom, Rosario and a mom on the stoop talking. And they heard her and they heard the dialect. And they just stopped and walked over and said, you know, this is they've just started talking to her. This is what we're doing. Would you like to be involved? I mean, Rosario doesn't have you know, she's not in the movie all that much. But you know, really important point. And obviously, she's Rosario. She was fantastic. And yeah, it was just one of those things where they just passed by hurdle on the stoop. A mother is incredibly interesting woman too. And, yeah, that's exactly how it happened.

Alex Ferrari 23:28
How? So I remember when that movie came out. I mean, it was obviously done independently. It wasn't done by Studio. I, if I'm, if I'm if I'm correct, correct. There wasn't a major studio behind that film.

Cary Woods 23:43
Correct.

Alex Ferrari 23:43
Right. So it was done independently. And I remember when it was coming out, there was so much controversy about it because of the subject matter and kids and the sexuality of it all. And, and I've just never seen something so raw and honest, because I was a kid, too. We all were, and we all knew what was going on with those during those years. I mean, that was a heightened version of that. No question, at least in that group of kids. But how? How did you get this out? Because I remember there was like picket lines. People were like, well boycotting this thing come out.

Cary Woods 24:19
Well, I can tell you this. There's a lot of thought into it. We hired first of all, I hired a lawyer called off the Garbers, who was one of the kings of First Amendment law, he represented the New York Times. His daughter, Liz Garbus is a pretty important documentary filmmaker right now. But we showed the I anticipated that we could find ourselves people you know, and down south or wherever, actually challenging us legally. And so I wanted to have, you know, a legal opinion shutting that down. Before it could even happen. I mean, there was nothing about The film that in any way skirted the law, but I just wanted to be sure that we had all of our I's dotted and T's crossed. So off the Garbus, you know, was our first amendment lawyer. So he he did that. I mean, we were very, we knew going in I mean, we, everybody was legal, you know, everything was done correctly, because we knew what it was. And we knew that it was dynamite. But at the same time, we were dealing with St. Kitts, so you're you had to be extremely cautious about the way we went about things a couple of guys was sleeping, you know, at Larry's house, or at Harmony's house, because otherwise, there were times where you just wouldn't know if they would show up. You know? And

Alex Ferrari 25:53
That's how you get that that's how you kept an eye on that's how you kept an eye on?

Cary Woods 25:57
Well, yeah, you know, because, I mean, they were excited to be in the movie, but, you know, when, when, when the movie was done, they went back to being kids, you know, to being done, which meant they were out.

Alex Ferrari 26:09
Right. And I saw another documentary about many of those kids. And they became, you know, just legends on the streets of Washington Square and all that. But after that movie came out, it was it was one of those movies in the 90s, like that only could be released in the 90s. I don't think that that there's no way in God's green earth that kids could be released today. In a theatrical experience.

Cary Woods 26:33
I don't think no. Just couldn't get made that, you know, that movie wasn't independently made. Nobody was giving anybody the money to make that movie. I think that we had one shot, and we were lucky. We took it. And that was it. You know, but it was just one of those things where it all came together. And and I think having it,

Alex Ferrari 27:02
I think I love that film, too. I think it's one of those films that independent filmmakers should definitely watch. And it's such a almost cinema Veritate way of looking at it you feel like a fly on the wall during that film. It is it is one of those quintessential 90s films to say,

Cary Woods 27:21
I'll tell you how many times people ask me how much of it was scripted. And how much of it was scripted was almost 90% Virtually every word was scripted is you know, there's the scenes, the girls talking scene where Larry and Irene let them go, you know, just say, Sure, go for it. But other than that, every single word in that script was scripted. You know, that's,

Alex Ferrari 27:45
I mean, remarkable. It seems so natural. It seems like Yep. It's dialogue that it, it's like, there's no way someone sat down and wrote that. But

Cary Woods 27:55
Well, he was there, Pierre, he was there. He was, he was a skater. And these guys were his friends. And he hung out with them. And he knew how they talked about them. And he, you know, so you couldn't possibly be, you know, he, he was there. These were these. This was the kind of dialogue that he was part of it.

Alex Ferrari 28:21
Yeah, that's remarkable. Now, now, you also worked on another movie, which is essentially one of those quintessential 90s indie films. And they're, you know, I always you know that that whole time period of the 90s is where the independent film boomed again and you know, for mariachi, Two Brothers McMullen and clerks and all of these films, and one of those films was Swingers, and swingers was one of those films because for me, when it came out, it was one of those. I can't believe they made that in the sense of like, I How did they make that movie for such a small budget? How did you can you tell me how that project came to be?

Cary Woods 29:03
Well, all of that stuff. Well, I came into it a little bit late, but here's was my relationship to it. Jon Favreau and Vince Vaughn, we're both in Rudy. John fans currently Rudy's best friend. Yeah. And John fabro played the quarterback at the end. He's a little bit of an asshole, so I got to know them in that movie. John then went off and wrote in John and Vince are friends in John went off and wrote that script, which is kind of a little bit of their story of his and Vincent story in Chicago. And Doug Liman the director. Originally, John wrote it to direct it. And Doug Liman got the script and read it and wanted to direct it and he offered to find the answer this father As a lawyer, and he had clients, and they were gonna put together the money to finance it, and it wasn't a lot of money.

Alex Ferrari 30:06
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Cary Woods 30:16
And, you know, when John was going to star in it, and he wrote it, so he agreed to that. He agreed to do that. So then the movie happened. And then when it was done, they weren't getting into festivals, and they were having some, so they called me and they said, Hey, would you look at this movie? You know, I think he may like it. And then, you know, I'm like, sure. I loved it. I absolutely knocked me out. I couldn't believe how much I loved it. And you know, and then we did some work, they did some music stuff, and, and they didn't get into Sundance. And I remember calling people. back a couple weeks before Sundance, I started to call around to the studios, to set up screenings for people who were, you know, the heads of the studios saying, Look, if you haven't been, if you haven't not been to Sundance yet, so you haven't spent any money, which is good, because the most valuable film in Sundance this year is not going to be in Sundance, I'm going to send it to you right now. And essentially, they watch the film, you know, it wasn't in Sundance, and people started to like it Now eventually, Harvey one with whom I had a deal. He really wanted it. He just, he had to have it. And there was one other company, who, whose person whose highest level person who can see the movie had seen it and liked it. But in order to get it bought, the person who could say yes or no to that level of decision, wasn't in the state, and was going to be another day before he came back. And so basically was like I either had to take Harvey Weinstein's offer, which he hasn't even said anything yet, or dance for day two, until this guy got back to the United States without even knowing whether he was gonna say yes, even if he did see it. So I really didn't have a short thing. I had no one of the offers. So I got a tremendous amount of pressure from Harvey Weinstein about, of course, so he didn't know really, that I didn't, that the decision maker wasn't around. He didn't, he didn't know that he didn't know how long it would take for the guy to be back. You know, he just knew that I was holding out, you know, like, he was gonna see it any minute. And he finally said, Well, you know, I said it look, you know, if you want it, make me an offer that makes me take it off the table so that I don't do anything irresponsible to my partners, you know? And he said, Okay, well, what's that number? And I told him, and it was a larger number than I think he thought, but he said, Yes. And, and so we he got the movie, and he put it out. I never was really happy with the way he put it out. I don't think that the movie, it gained a tremendous amount of acclaim and fame after it's released, but didn't do didn't have a really big box office rice. But, you know, but he put it out it is, you know, and then, of course, on video and streaming, it became a thing, but I don't think he really understood what it was when he put it out.

Alex Ferrari 33:56
But that so, it so let me ask you though, because I remember that, if I remember correctly, because it's been a few years since then. The budget of that film was like to 200,000 a quarter million or something like that, right. 250 Yeah, accordingly, accordingly. So it was a $250,000 budget film. And Doug Liman made that movie look like it was made for me, you know, at least three or $4 million, if not more.

Cary Woods 34:23
Doug is a super, super talented guy, super talented guy. The casting was incredible. There was no stars movie, you know, Heather Graham, the only sort of known person in the movie, but she didn't work at her anywhere near what her salary would have been. And, you know, he did a beautiful job. He's really talented, you know, and in in those kinds of movies, the script was so good. You know, when you think about movies that don't cost a lot. It's the screenplay you know, that screenplay. I was just sad. You know, what people remember about that movie is no one really remembers the shot. They everybody remembers, Oh, mine come up to me Oh, remember the shot when this happened, but they will come up to me and say your money, you know,

Alex Ferrari 35:15
Oh God, I mean that guy. Oh my god, how many lines that movie is like one of the most quotable movies of the 90s. I mean, it was everybody was quoting that movie and I was in college, when that movie hit and it was just like everybody was talking about swingers and how they got it made and, and how it looked and it looks like such high production value. It's so It's remarkable because do you think a movie like swingers would even dent the world today? In today's marketplace? I mean, the quote, the script is good, obviously it but

Cary Woods 35:49
It's hard to know. I mean, it's look, the movie is a love story between these two gods. Right? They love each other. Sure. No, John and Vince love each other. Is there room for with a different backdrop for two guys of that age really loving one another as friends? I think so. I mean, that's the kind of story those stories happen. You know, and, and I think, you know, well written and well told, you know, not not about swing music, but about around something else. I think it worked. You know, I mean, those are the kinds of human relationships that are gonna always resonate one way or another.

Alex Ferrari 36:31
And in the end, the investors of that film did okay.

Cary Woods 36:34
Everybody did great.

Alex Ferrari 36:39
I know, I remember I read something that Doug lime was like, yeah, there was some dentists that we got some money from, and, and they got a check back. And they're like, when can we do more of these movies? Is this the way it always is?

Cary Woods 36:52
Well, look, everybody did great. But, John, you know, John Van, and Doug really did. And it's not because they all got rich on that movie, but their careers just all took off. And their careers are incredible. All three of them have amazing careers right now.

Alex Ferrari 37:11
Right! And Vince Vince is I mean, he built a car to his his comedic career. And John is built as not only acting career, but also his directing career. And Doug is, he's a fantastic, fantastic. Is he gonna do that? That space movie with Tom Cruise? Now? They're gonna actually shoot in space.

Cary Woods 37:28
They're talking about it. No one talked about it. I'll tell you, John bathroom thing that's amazing about him is that when he was on the set of Rudy, he was always around the director. I mean, there was it was so clear that this guy wanted to direct and that he would direct, you know, he was he was constantly around the director picking his brain, you know, it was like, it was very clear that this was a guy that would one day be sitting in the director's seat

Alex Ferrari 37:58
And launched the biggest movie franchise in the history of cinema. Can you imagine if you would have said, Oh, the guy from swingers? Right? It's gonna launch a multi billion dollar franchise that Hollywood has never seen before. Yeah. And now he's redoing it. And now he's heading up Star Wars, essentially. So he's done. Okay. He's money. He's money as they say,

Cary Woods 38:26
He is money. Really smart. And he really works hard.

Alex Ferrari 38:31
Yeah, I heard he's the nicest sweetest guy on the planet.

Cary Woods 38:34
Sweetest guy. Yep.

Alex Ferrari 38:36
I hear. So so then you got to work on another project from the 90s, which also is kind of a redefined genre, which is scream. How did you get involved in screaming and how did was it like,

Cary Woods 38:53
Well, it was weird one because, you know, some of the people might company you know, some of the development people read the script came into my office. You've got to read this script. This heart phone came in. First of all, it was called scary movie. Right? Right. You got to read the script called scary movie. I go, Well, what is it? It's a heart. I said, but you guys know, I don't like horror movies. Which is the truth. I'm not a big horror fan. It's not a horror film. It is a comedic. It's a spoof on the horror genre. It's calm. So I said, Well, I like comedy, and I like spoof so I read it. I loved it. It was hilarious. And so I, you know, I read I loved it. And I immediately called up the studio and I sent it over them and said, We got to make this thing. So it was Miramax. And they agreed, and, and I knew Drew Barrymore and I sent her the script for the lead, not the part that we know that you Barrymore played, and she wanted to do it. And so then, you know, then that was it. I Drew Barrymore and the script, and you know, we were ready to go. So, um, and then and then when then that happened, but I then got I got a call from drew a few weeks later saying that she didn't want she wanted to play the part of girl number one. And I'm thinking wow, okay, great, cool. So we're gonna play that, like, how do you want to look different? Like, how do you want to do that? She was No, no, I only want to play girl number one. And I thought, oh god that goes to movies. My league just left. So I say, well, that goes dead on page 22. She goes, yeah, no, I love that part. I want to do it. And I'll do anything else. I'll do any publicity or anything like that. Now, at this point we had with Craven, you know, he had come on. And so the film itself was more solid, you know, yet Wes Craven directing it. And she said, you know, I'll talk to Wes, and I'll explain it. And I. And when she explained it, she said to me, Look, if I die on page 20, whatever, then anything can happen after that. The audience will, nothing will surprise them, they'll be up for anything. Because, you know, if they've killed me on page 22, then anything could happen. I knew she was right. And I went, I called Harvey wanting the next day. And I said, Look, Drew doesn't, you know, wants to play girl number one, but she will let us you know, she'll do all the press that we wanted to do. And, you know, you'll save millions of dollars, because you won't have to pay her much. And you'll still and he said, Okay, let's do what is Westbank? And I said Wesson is fine. He said, Okay, let's do it. And a few remember the poster for school one? Oh, yeah, Drew Barrymore's? Right. That's it. He's in the middle. She's in the movie for like three minutes. And the poster is her beautiful face with her blue eyes, you know, shining out of the poster. Hilarious.

Alex Ferrari 42:30
But she was so it was Drew's idea to be that part. It wasn't it wasn't was his idea.

Cary Woods 42:35
No, no. Wow. Drew Barrymore is brilliant. Some actors sometimes just have an instinct about these things that you just don't see. I mean, Matt Dillon had it about drugstore cowboy. You know, drugstore cowboy was written for a 40 year old man. You know, Gus, drugstore can be the, you know, firstline 40 year old Bob. And I had given I was an agent and I gave it to Matt as a writing sample, because I had just signed Gus as my client. And I wanted him to hire Gus as a writer. And I gave him drugstore cowboy is a writing sample for the script that he wanted to write. He read the script. And he called me up. He was happy to see you. I go, why he goes, I'll tell you what, dinner so we go to dinner. He goes, Listen, I have to play this part. I met the guys 40 years old. We've already sent it to Bill hurt, which we had sent it to Bill hurt after kiss of the Spider Woman. He goes, No, that's too old. He can't be 40 because if he's a 40 year old guy who has been a drug addict, since he's like, 13, there's no so persuaded me and I introduced them. You know, I set up a meeting with him and Gus, and he persuaded Gus to and ended up being a drugstore cowboy. And it was purely because he saw something about that character being 20 years younger. That the writer director didn't see surely I didn't see. And you know, we were connecting it to Drew saying that she should play the part of the girl. Girl number one she didn't even have a name she just drove number one. Sometimes out to see things that we don't see. It's an interesting,

Alex Ferrari 44:32
It's and that's the brilliance of that movie. I mean, if you don't kill me, spoiler alert for anyone listening if you don't kill a bear. If you don't kill Drew Barrymore off in the first three or four minutes of the film. I'm not sure the movie does well, it even it's the thing that it was the Hitchcock aspect of things you know, you killed off your main lead. Well, wait a minute, if I could, I just killed off Jubair more. Nothing is everything's out the window. And it was So perfect with a commentary on the horror genre and what Kevin Williamson script was doing. And it was a remarkable script now, I got to ask you though, with with working with Wes, did you? What was it like working with, you know, kind of like a legend? You know, and he was at the, I think at the top of his game at that point.

Cary Woods 45:19
What it was like was Yes, sir. What else do you need? Yes, was a horror movie with West Craven, for now. And, you know, and I'm not even a guy and even if I was didn't matter, I'm not even a guy who like pretended to, you know, have a great interest in the genre of great knowledge about the genre. Only news ahead, Wes Craven directing a horror movie, you know, so that was it, you know, whatever he needed was, what was what my job, you know, and, and he was a pleasure to work with.

Alex Ferrari 45:58
Now, how did you get involved with Cop Land, another film, that just is, I mean, one of the starting films for James bang Mangold, who, who's had a decent career, since then,

Cary Woods 46:10
I had, I saw heavy at Sundance, Jim angle, first movie, and I flipped out for it. I just flipped. And, and I'm very director centric, you know, if I see a filmmaker that I really like, and that's interesting, I want to talk to them and meet them and see what they're interested in, you know. And so I saw heavy at Sundance, and Jim was there. And, you know, the beautiful little movie. I don't remember if at the time movies were selling for a lot at Sundance, but it wasn't that kind of movie wasn't going to be like a big commercial thing. But beautifully done. And I met with him and I said, Well, what do you do you have anything you want to do? Next? He goes, Yeah, I want to do a contemporary Western. It takes place in a police to any pitches me Copland? I go, That sounds really great. You know, when when you're done writing it, can I read those, I'm done writing it. Great. Let me read it. So I read it, I love it. I say I want to do it. I go down to Harvey I go, I think I found our next movie, and I give him Cop Land. And then, and he loved it too. And then he sent it to John Travolta, they had just finished Pulp Fiction, and he sent it to John Travolta to play the lead. And I remember going down to meet with John Travolta who liked it. But who as he put it, wanted to get paid. And what he meant by that was that apparently on Pulp Fiction, knowing that pay, no. And Pulp Fiction then became a big giant hit, and John Travolta now was back at what his price would be on the open market, which was nowhere near what Harvey was gonna pay him. So he said, Look, I love it. I want to do it. Tell Harvey I just want to be paid. And so. Okay. And then an agent at William Morris. I think John Stuart storm was at ICM at the time and somebody at William Morris, who was trying to sign him sent him the script, because an agent thing to do is to send a script to somebody at another agency that their own agent might not have thought of them for, which is what happened here. Stallone had never heard of the movie. And he read it, he loved it. He was down in Florida, he offered to fly up to New York and meet. We met him, you know, he said he was going to gain weight. He couldn't have been any nicer or any more respectful. I mean, it was like, you know, the opposite of things that you heard about Sly Stallone, and you know, he was going to be working with a first pet Well, a second time filmmaker, but essentially, you know, first time filmmaker, and couldn't have been a nicer, more respectful guy couldn't have been, and he, you know, he, he worked as hard as you can work on that port. And I think he did a great job. He was great.

Alex Ferrari 49:36
And how did you put together that cast and being it's an insanity of a cast?

Cary Woods 49:43
It's always a script, really. It's always about it's about the script and the director. You know, if you have a script and the director can go into the room, and persuade the actor that he's going to get what is on the page if the actor likes what's on the page. You're going to get him, he's not going to do it because he likes you because you're a nice guy, and you'd be the guy to go out to a game with, you know, it has to be these are artists and they want to do something that's gonna challenge them. And that was a really, really good script. And then of course, as we kept going on this cast started become better. So then the actor was like, Well, wait a minute, you've got De Niro and Stallone and yeah, you know, so then all of a sudden, it becomes like a snowball effect with Harvey Keitel, you know, and it's like, all of a sudden, yeah, you know, now you want to be part of

Alex Ferrari 50:36
Nobody. Nobody wants to get to the party first. But once once the mood right, once the movie is dating a pretty girl, all the pretty girls want to come?

Cary Woods 50:45
Exactly Well, we had a lot of pretty girls at that party.

Alex Ferrari 50:48
There's no no question. No question. I mean, you're looking at I mean, Robert Patrick Lee Ray Liotta. Like he just got the list just goes on and on. You just watch that movie. You're like, how did it get this guy had to get this guy, holy cow. It was, and still alone is probably one of his best performances in, throughout his career

Cary Woods 51:06
Go out as a producer and say, Oh, well, I'm so amazing. It isn't you don't have a script, you could be I don't know, whatever you are, you have to have a script. And you have to have the right talent director that's going to be shooting it, you know, and then they you predicting the made, you can make it look good as a producer, if you have those two things, you know, without them. I don't know what else you can do.

Alex Ferrari 51:29
Exactly. Now, you also worked with a young, a young filmmaker, writer director, by the name of M Night Shyamalan, on his first feature called Wide Awake, which has, which he's completely gotten nothing to do with his career. As far as his where his path, but yet you worked with EMI at the very beginning of his career. What was that experience like?

Cary Woods 51:58
That boy, graphical, very nice guy. Here's the thing about an night, first movie or second movie, you did a little thing in India before that. But he carried himself again, like Larry Clark, he carried himself like he had directed 20 movies. I mean, this guy knew filming. Or he knew what he wanted to do. And he was he's going after he's a pleasure to work with. And this was the kind of thing where his Indian movie and him he the power of his talking about his script and about what the movie was going to be and just as intelligence made us feel, and it wasn't a very expensive movie made us feel like well, yeah, we want to be we want to work with this guy. And that was a major milestone.

Alex Ferrari 52:47
And then and then as I say, the rest is history when he wrote that little ghost movie.

Cary Woods 52:53
That will go smoothly Correct.

Alex Ferrari 52:56
Did he Did he mention the ghost movie while you guys were working together or not?

Cary Woods 53:00
No, unfortunately. He and the Weinstein's had a falling out shockingly, the shocking. Shockingly, another director that didn't want to work with them ever again. And just my luck, I'm stuck there. And he goes off and does that movie, you know? And I'm just like, you know, nothing I can do about it, because I still had my deal where I was stuck at Miramax, right. So, yeah, so there were a number of there were a number of those.

Alex Ferrari 53:36
I'm sure. I'm sure there was a couple of drinks after success came out.

Cary Woods 53:42
Yes, listen, I love them. I wish nothing but the best and I surely understood why he didn't want to do anything with those guys again. So you know, no quarrel for me.

Alex Ferrari 53:52
Of course, of course. And then you know, so you've been living during your career at this point. You've been living in the indie world in the Miramax world, you know, it basically in the heyday of Miramax, which was the 90s, basically from the early 90s, all the way into the basically the early 2000s. And then you got to jump into a very deep pool, working on a huge big budget blockbuster like Godzilla with Roland Emmerich, who is, you know, arguably one of the best action directors and spectacle directors. Honestly, I think in the history of cinema, what was it like and what did you take away from that experience from working on smaller budgets, smaller films to jumping to

Cary Woods 54:38
The truth of the matter is that it went backwards. I worked on the big ones first. I had my deal in Sony before I did kit or gumbo was good shirt or any of those, you know, Godzilla was an odd thing because I was dealing with a guy. We always chasing down the rights to Mr. Magoo. You And there was a Japanese company called toe toe ha that represented that owned the rights and there was a guy in the Valley who represented them in dealing with people who wanted to come to them for the rights and I came to them for the rights will came to him to see if the right for Mr. Magoo available may work. And I went back to Tristar and Colombia which is where my home was. And they wanted nothing to do with Mr. Magoo. And despite the fact I have to go tells the guy from Magoo that they don't want to do it even with Mike Meyer, they didn't like the dailies on AX murder. Don't that's a whole other story I read not even get into because it's so aggravating. But, um, I mean, Mike Myers was a comedic genius as far as I was concerned, and the studio didn't like the dailies or So I Married an Axe Murderer. So consequently, they didn't want to get the rights to Magoo for Mike Myers to write and star and Magoo. I mean, think about that. Any event, I had to go back to the guy and say, Look, I'm really sorry, but the studio is passing. It was Oh, that's too bad. But you know, what just became available is that my clients own the rights to Godzilla. And up until now, the director who created it was alive and he didn't want to share the reading want us to option the rights to an American studio, but he passed away sadly, a month ago now my clients are willing to do it. And I'm Godzilla. So I raced back to the office. And they said, No. And I had worked for Peter Guber, who was their boss. He was the chairman of the studio overs. You know, Columbia and Tristar. I tracked him down. And, you know, basically he said, Well, how's it going to go? Not that great. This is what happened. And he goes, the rights to Godzilla the fire breathing monster, I go, Yes. He goes, Oh, no, we have to do that. Leave it with me. And then again, that was it. They got the rights. No one was happy with me. But nonetheless, we got the rights.

Alex Ferrari 57:20
And you said you had to jump you had to jump over a couple people said to get that project greenlit.

Cary Woods 57:25
It was the kind of thing that you're not supposed to do. So if I was taught political politics in studio 101, I broke every possible rule.

Alex Ferrari 57:38
But it's Godzilla man.

Cary Woods 57:40
But it's Godzilla man. Yeah, it was Godzilla. And you know, just sometimes, it just happens so often, when you just know somebody is missing. You know, somebody's missing something here. Anyway.

Alex Ferrari 57:53
And I remember I mean, I remember when Godzilla came out, it was the marketing budget on that, oh, God, Oh, my God, it was everywhere. It was. I remember, they took big chunks out of like, the Empire State Building or something like that, like they had a banner. And it looks like, literally, there was a chunk missing. It was

Cary Woods 58:13
For the premiere screaming in New York was at Madison Square Garden. Madison, in the marketing was brilliant. You know, you have to say, I mean, size does matter. I mean, they were having so much fun with it, you know, um, it was fun. It was a it was a fun project to make into market. You know?

Alex Ferrari 58:43
What was in that? Obviously, that was probably the biggest budget thing that you'd ever worked on,

Cary Woods 58:48
Yeah, by by a lot.

Alex Ferrari 58:50
Right. So what was it? Is there any little lessons or gold nuggets that you kind of pulled away from that experience?

Cary Woods 58:58
Can you do a movie that size? Have a director like Roland Emmerich? You know, it's having some experience and doing movies of that size is really important, because it's not what I did. No, it's not my thing. And he knew exactly what he was doing. So

Alex Ferrari 59:21
Yeah, it's remarkable. It's remarkable now that they give Marvel movies to younger, inexperienced directors or just they maybe have one or two indies under their belt, and they get thrown into this 100 and $50 million beast. But I think that that's a machine.

Cary Woods 59:39
I think the exactly, I think the infrastructure is in place right now, where the line producers and everything else, where you basically can put somebody in there who creatively puts together who talks about what it is they want to do, and then they've got this giant team of people who can make it happen. ad budgets that work for them. And obviously the budgets generous, but I don't think I think it's it. They've now got it down to a science, especially at Marvel. They didn't you know? How many of them were here? Are they turning out?

Alex Ferrari 1:00:16
Three three to four if you include the Sony stuff? Yeah, it's

Cary Woods 1:00:20
I mean, it's essentially it's right. They got it down to a sign.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:26
It's a factory. It's a factory.

Cary Woods 1:00:27
It's a factory.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:29
Yeah. And there's, you know, those kind of movies. God, I just remember, seeing Godzilla was freaking everywhere, man. Like there's, it almost reminded me of Batman 89. Like, it was at that level of marketing.

Cary Woods 1:00:43
It was, well, you got to remember the guys, the producers of Batman. Damn, you know, the studio about Godzilla. Makes perfect sense. Yeah, it's probably not a complete coincidence.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:59
Now, um, what are you working on now? What are the projects you're working on now?

Cary Woods 1:01:04
Well, we just finished shooting a movie, The John Slattery directed go Maggie Moore, starring Jon Hamm, and Tina Fey. And based based and actually, it's based on a true story of a killing that happened about 30 years ago outside of Euston two women about the same age pretty much kind of nondescript in their 40s. And they were both murdered three days apart about 30 miles from each other. And the thing about it is, they both had the same name. So three days, murders three days apart, 30 miles apart, pretty much the same age with the same name. They investigate and the authorities conclude that it's a coincidence.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:03
Of course, of course it is,

Cary Woods 1:02:05
Of course. Alright, a pearl. Paul Birnbaum reads about it and thinks no possible way. Is that a coincidence? So he concocts a tale. And this was on America's Unsolved Mysteries. I mean, Robert Stack did an episode on this. Our writer saw it and thought this, you know, this is perfect fodder for like a, you know, Fargo like black comedy, which he wrote, and is great. And Slattery found it and he put it together. And you know, him and Faye are incredible. Nick, Mohammed from Ted lasso is in it. And he's great. I love him and Ted lasso. And yeah, so I'm excited about that. We just wrapped that a couple of weeks ago. And I'm doing a teeny tiny little movie called man with a really talented, who I think you spoke to called Steve Friedman, who's like a 21 year old kid who basically put together a movie for like, $15,000 as a crowdfunded thing. And somebody brought him to my attention. And I took a look at, you know, a few minutes of it and just spoke to him for a little while, and it was clear that he was talking to a filmmaker. So

Alex Ferrari 1:03:26
Yeah, he has he has a very interesting story and he's going to be on the show in probably a few weeks after your your you air. But he, he's great.

Cary Woods 1:03:36
He's very much one of a kind. He's funny, Tik Tok generate he's an old soul from a different generation. Yeah, yes, very much. And, and he's really smart. And I think really talented. And I only don't know many people who love movies as much as he does. He truly loves cinema. And he's a throwback and I'm really and he's 21 So I'm really curious to see what the future holds in store for him and I have no doubt it'll be great things but it's fun it's fun working with you know another 21 year old director kit you know, it's been a while for me

Alex Ferrari 1:04:14
And he probably has any probably has a ghost movie that he's gonna direct soon soon after.

Cary Woods 1:04:19
Oh, I would imagine but this time I'll be the producer

Alex Ferrari 1:04:23
There you go this time you're not gonna let that go? Yeah, no.

Cary Woods 1:04:27
He's not having a fight with the studio.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:31
You're the studio you're in the studio.

Cary Woods 1:04:33
I am the studio right now he's I don't know that his ghost movies gonna be the next one. But he'll do whatever it's gonna be it'll be interesting.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:46
Now as a as a producer carry me. We all you know being on set and working on projects over the years. There's always that day that everything's around you is it everything is crashing down around you. There's you're losing the sun and actor doesn't show up the cameras broken the director as a fit. Something happens as a producer, that the whole world's coming down crashing around you? Is there a specific project or day that sticks out in your mind? And how did you overcome that day?

Cary Woods 1:05:17
I think interesting question. For me, it's, it's different than than a day on a set. Okay. For me, it's more like the movies going away. In other words, like for me once we're on the set the movies happening, so there's a day and you're gonna have a problem with that de you'll fix it somehow. To me, I'm the bigger calamities is Oh, shit, they're not making the movie. You know, the bigger calamity for me was getting the phone call from my lead, you know, Drew Barrymore. Like, I don't want to play the lead, I want to play the girl who's gone on page 20. You know, and I literally, I'm on the phone, and I'm seeing the movie go away. I'm seeing myself having to go up. Oh, well, we lost the lead. So they're not gonna make that movie. And there's that, you know, it's more like, those are the kinds of things I mean, the other kinds of things. I mean, I've never gotten the calamitous call, you know, like my directors, mother died, or my, there are those. Look, we're human beings, and we live human life. No, so it is divorce, there's death, there's all accidents, that can kind of happen. But even those things, you know, will close you down for a couple of days, but you're still making the movie, the other kinds of things where you're just your movies gone, you know, it just went away, you lost your lead, or the money is not coming in, you know, the money changed their mind. Those are more the kinds of things that I've had to deal with. And Drew's probably the best example of one where it was like, Oh, God, there goes, it's, it's, I mean, I have to get ready to have the meeting, where I'm gonna go try. Now I was sold, she sold me, you know, I mean, creatively, I was totally sold creatively, it wasn't my saving money. With them, it was gonna be, hey, you're gonna save X amount of millions of dollars, you know, and it's a good idea creatively. So I was plotting how I was going to sell it to them. But, you know, I got lucky that they saw it that way. And they ended up making well, they got lucky too. And they ended up making the movie, but it could have easily gone another direction.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:42
Now, I'm going to ask you a few questions asked all my guests. What, what advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today.

Cary Woods 1:07:52
But in one, it would in a filmmaker,

Alex Ferrari 1:07:55
As a director as a director,

Cary Woods 1:07:57
Shoot, go out there and shoot stuff and put it on YouTube and get it up. And as much as you can shoot, and if you can write, write as much as you can write? Because, look, it's a different era. You know, when I started in this business, saying to some kid go shoot, well, how am I going to shoot a camera cost $60,000. Now you can go, go get yourself a phone for $500. And shoot, you know, and all you need is a couple of friends or a couple of actors. Do it sweet. Did you know that's basically trees, the model of a guy who didn't have anything, he had a phone, and he started shooting things and cutting, cutting it on the actual phone himself, and putting it up on YouTube. And that's there are a lot of people who are doing that. And now there are a lot more places than YouTube and there's tech top and there's Instagram and there's just go out and do your thing, because there's no reason not to because there's no barriers to entry as it relates to economics.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:59
Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Cary Woods 1:09:18
One of the biggest one of the biggest bands, the thing that gets in the way of people both in life and in art and in this business and many businesses ego, put your ego aside, you don't have to be overly modest, but none of that means anything. What means something speaking since we're talking about movies is what's on screen, or you know what ends up on the screen with your name on it. That's all really that needs to map. You know, the rest of it is like what position credit or you and all of this kind of stuff doesn't really matter at the end, you know? because you can, I won't get asked me about a lot of people and a lot of movies and I won't know what position they were in, I'll just know if their name was on the movie or not. You know, it doesn't matter. You know, Jim Brooks, great filmmaker once said to me, because he was having a screen, I was developing something with him and examine a screening of a movie he had just finished. And he invited everybody in the office to the screening. And very often, you know, a lot of filmmakers are really precious about who gets to see a cut to the movie. And he was invited in the receptionist's and the secretaries and everybody, and I sit there, Hey, Jim, how you know, you're really generous with who you invite to your early screening. You know, well, how come you feel so comfortable doing that? He said, hey, look, these are just stories, and everybody can have ideas about stories. And so therefore, they can have a good suggestion. And if they do, at the end of the day, it's gonna say, directed by Jim Brooks. And I thought that is it's both humble, and it's confident. Yeah, and it's smart. Now, and that's the truth. The end of the day, what's up on the screen is what's gonna matter. The rest of it is all just noise.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:19
Great, great. Great lesson. Now and lastly, three of your favorite films of all time.

Cary Woods 1:11:24
Oh, God.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:25
Whatever comes to mind at right now?

Cary Woods 1:11:27
I mean, come on. Um, well, what you know, it's like me. Okay, the godfather shockingly shockingly. Mean Streets. Marty. And then where do I go from there? Well, I'm going to exclude any of my own movies because they could be in there but um, uh, huh. I mean, just because it's Citizen Kane. I have to say Citizen Kane. Sure.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:08
Hey, that's that's very respectable list. Very, very.

Cary Woods 1:12:11
I mean, you know, you don't want to say Oh, well, yeah, Citizen Kane in The Godfather, but then you watch them in your Yeah. How else can you not?

Alex Ferrari 1:12:20
I mean, yeah, I mean, my list is always generally each it fluctuates. But it's you know, it's it's Shawshank Redemption, Fight Club, the matrix, Blade Runner. I mean, the list goes on and on Pulp Fiction, you

Cary Woods 1:12:34
No, there's so many there's so many.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:37
There's so many. But I always like to like what's coming at the top of the hill? What's, what's the mike throw away, like, if it comes on on TNT? Or if it see on streaming or something like that, you just throw the remote away and just keep watching.

Cary Woods 1:12:49
What have you seen it like? I I mean, I saw Mean Streets not too long ago. I'm talking about showing my son, the godfather. All of this has been happening in the last three weeks. And I guess I was talking about citizen. I mean,

Alex Ferrari 1:13:04
It's fresh. It's fresh in the mind. It's fresh.

Cary Woods 1:13:07
Yeah. But I mean, if I would have seen about a year ago or so I saw Goodfellas at the film forum in New York. You know, if you talked to me a week after that, it would have been good phones instead of means

Alex Ferrari 1:13:19
As as much as it should be, as it should. Yeah. It's, it's It's tough. It's a tough, it's a tough thing. It's a tough thing. But Karen, I really appreciate you coming on the show my friend and Oh, my pleasure and sharing, and sharing and sharing your knowledge with everybody. So I appreciate it. And please, keep making great movies my friend.

Cary Woods 1:13:39
Thank you very, very much. I really appreciate it.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:43
I want to thank Carrie so much for coming on the show and dropping his knowledge bombs on the tribe today. Thank you so much, Cary. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com/534. And guys, I will be making a big announcement in the coming weeks for that big project I have been working on that will be released in early January sometime early 2022. I'm really excited about it. I cannot wait to share this info with you guys. So keep an eye out for that. Thank you so much for listening, guys. As always, keep that also going. keep that dream alive. Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 533: From James Cameron to Steven Spielberg, the Life of Lance Henriksen

Lance Henriksen

Today on the show we have legendary actor Lance Henriksen. I had the pleasure of work with Lance on my film Red Princess Blues: Genesis and if was a surreal experience.

Lance has been in over 300 films through-out his remarkable career.

He’s mentored Tarzan, Evel Knievel and the Antichrist, and fought Terminators, Aliens, Predators, Pumpkinhead, Pinhead, Bigfoot, Superman, the Autobots, Mr. T, Jean-Claude Van Damme and Steven Seagal.

He’s worked with directors James Cameron, Steven Spielberg, Kathryn Bigelow, Sidney Lumet, Francois Truffaut, John Huston, Walter Hill, David Fincher, John Woo, Jim Jarmusch and Sam Raimi, but this is just skimming the surface.

An intense, versatile actor as adept at playing clean-cut FBI agents as he is psychotic motorcycle-gang leaders, who can go from portraying soulless, murderous vampires to burned-out, world-weary homicide detectives, Lance Henriksen has starred in a variety of films that have allowed him to stretch his talents just about as far as an actor could possibly hope.

He played Awful Knoffel in the TNT original movie EVIL KNIEVEL, directed by John Badham and executive produced by Mel Gibson. Henriksen portrayed Awful Knoffel in this project based on the life of the famed daredevil, played by George Eads. Henriksen starred for three seasons (1996-1999) on Millennium, Fox-TV’s critically acclaimed series created by Chris Carter (The X-Files).

His performance as Frank Black, a retired FBI agent who has the ability to get inside the minds of killers, landed him three consecutive Golden Globe nominations for “Best Performance by a Lead Actor in a Drama Series” and a People’s Choice Award nomination for “Favorite New TV Male Star.”

Henriksen was born in New York City. His mother, Margueritte, was a waitress, dance instructor, and model. His father, James Marin Henriksen, who was from Tønsberg, Norway, was a boxer and merchant sailor.

Henriksen studied at the Actors Studio and began his career off-Broadway in Eugene O’Neill’s Three Plays of the Sea. One of his first film appearances was as an FBI agent in Sidney Lumet’s DOG DAY AFTERNOON, followed by parts in Lumet’s NETWORK and PRINCE OF THE CITY.

He then appeared in Steven Spielberg’s CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND with Richard Dreyfuss and François Truffaut, DAMIEN: OMEN II and in Philip Kaufman’s THE RIGHT STUFF, in which he played Mercury astronaut Capt. Wally Schirra.

James Cameron cast Henriksen in his first directorial effort, PIRANHA II: THE SPAWNING, then used him again in THE TERMINATOR and as the android Bishop in the sci-fi classic ALIENS. Sam Raimi cast Henriksen as an outrageously garbed gunfighter in his quirky western THE QUICK AND THE DEAD.

Henriksen has also appeared in what has developed into a cult classic: Kathryn Bigelow’s NEAR DARK, in which he plays the head of a clan of murderous redneck vampires. He was nominated for a Golden Satellite Award for his portrayal of Abraham Lincoln in the TNT original film THE DAY LINCOLN WAS SHOT.

In addition to his abilities as an actor, Henriksen is an accomplished painter and potter. His talent as a ceramist has enabled him to create some of the most unusual ceramic artworks available on the art market today.

His new film is called Alpha Rift.

Nolan Parthmore was just a regular guy, hanging with friends, working his game store, flirting with his co-worker, then one day, destiny came calling. A courier delivers a mysterious antique helmet with no note or description. When Nolan puts it on, his whole world changes. The helmet comes to life and calls out to an evil demon, Lord Dragsmere, who was imprisoned by Nolan’s deceased father.

Nolan soon discovers he is next in the bloodline, heir to The Nobleman, destined to become a hero whether he wants to be or not. Since the Dark Ages, the Noblemen have been guardians against the 13 Devil’s Apostles: dark forces escaped from hell and let loose upon on earth. Generations later, it’s the heirs of these original knights that possess the power to open the Alpha Rift:the only defense against these supernatural foes.

Enjoy my conversation with Lance Henriksen.

Right-click here to download the MP3

 

Alex Ferrari 0:00
I'd like to welcome to the show, Lance Henriksen Lance, how are you my friend?

Lance Henriksen 0:16
I'm good, Alex. Very good. I remember your name we've worked before.

Alex Ferrari 0:22
Yes, we have we have worked before we worked years ago on my on my short film Red Princess Blues Genesis, I reached out to your people and you were kind enough to bless our project with your voice, your remarkable voice. And I never forgot it. I was still just Fresh Off the Boat maybe a couple years in LA. And it was such a thrill to to work with with you and and

Lance Henriksen 0:47
Wilcox Hotel.

Alex Ferrari 0:49
I'm sorry.

Lance Henriksen 0:50
When you first got to LA where you're staying at the Wilcox hotel.

Alex Ferrari 0:54
I was lucky enough to get an apartment in North Hollywood,

Lance Henriksen 0:57
Split side hotel. You leave your brands on the ceiling.

Alex Ferrari 1:04
What's those? What are those apartments by Warner Brothers that everybody used to go live live at when you first got there?

Lance Henriksen 1:10
Yeah, I don't remember

Alex Ferrari 1:11
I don't remember the name of it. But there's that. Yeah. So

Lance Henriksen 1:16
First tell I couldn't afford.

Alex Ferrari 1:19
So so. So tell me, how did you get started in this business man? You've been around for a few years.

Lance Henriksen 1:28
New York. Okay. Yeah, I already had done theater in New York and stuff. And I did one movie, you know, and I liked it. So I thought I'm gonna get into and duke it out, you know, see what happens.

Alex Ferrari 1:43
And then and then you arrive in LA and LA back at those years were a little different than LA nowadays. Not as not as much competition.

Lance Henriksen 1:53
Well, there's a weird thing. I got a job as a desk clerk in a retirement home called, I forget the name of it, but was all real people, you know, like, like this kind of old people. And they were always coming up to the desk saying, Did I get any cards or pictures or anything from my kids? And it was pathetic. It really was. So I started writing them cards and putting boxes. You know, like, hi, you know, cuz I get there. I get the name of their kids. Who never called them nobody. Yeah, so that was a good setting of beginning for what it feels like to be in the business.

Alex Ferrari 2:43
No one calls you no one calls you that's for sure.

Lance Henriksen 2:45
My phone was as useless as you get.

Alex Ferrari 2:50
So when you so when you first started out, you know, one of your first projects was a little film called Dog Day Afternoon. With a little with a little director. Yeah, with a little direct Mr. Mr. Sidney Lumet what was it like? Being on that set that energy on that set seem to be

Lance Henriksen 3:07
I knew those people. I knew them all. Yeah, just studio people from New York. Sidney Lumet said I don't know what you're doing. But keep doing it. That's the only direction I got from him.

Alex Ferrari 3:23
Really? That was it. Just like just keep doing what you're doing. Now is the energy on that set was it seems so like, kinetic was it like that behind the scenes as well?

Lance Henriksen 3:36
Oh, yeah. Uh, we were real. You know, everybody was real. You know, John Casals was one of the great guys in the world. And yeah, and, and I remember I had to shoot him. And we said, John said to me, Look, let's, let's rehearse it because you don't know what's going to happen. So I turned to him, and I say, Sal, keep the gun pointed out, because you might hit a bump, you know, something will go off and, and we started laughing. We were in hysterics laughing. And I thought, Oh, it's a good thing. We did this, because when we get to the airport, you know, we're gonna be screwed if we do this, right. Laugh. I mean, we laugh for an hour while they were setting the commerce up on the hood and all over the view. And it was because I really liked them. And it's so absurd that I'm going to shoot them. I mean, it was like, and he got the same feeling. So it was like, we were go for I mean, really laughing for an hour.

Alex Ferrari 4:51
Wow. Because it seems like almost a documentary. It literally almost looked like a documentary.

Lance Henriksen 4:59
Yeah, it was And oddly enough, a lot of the guys that were actually involved in that they they were there on the street, you know, with all the extras. So weird for them.

Alex Ferrari 5:14
Oh god reliving that from a different perspective. Yeah, totally. So then, so then you've made a few other films and you you run across. Another, you have the list of directors you work with is ridiculous. But the next one on the list is Mr. Steven Spielberg, and you're working on Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Is that the biggest budget at that point in your career that you worked on?

Lance Henriksen 5:38
I never saw anything like it. We flew all the way to, you know, India, to run up that mountain and have 1000. I think there were 5,000 extras there that day, where we're saying, Where did it come from? What did you see? And they all went, they all pointed up, you know? And suddenly a rabbit ran across the field with all these experts. And they chased it. So you got 10,000 extras chasing a rabbit was the funniest site in the world, man.

Alex Ferrari 6:26
And when you're working in so when you're working with Spielberg, I mean, that's, uh, he's, he's, he's fresh off of jaws. So he's the biggest director on the planet at that moment in time because he created the blockbuster. What was it like working with Steven at that time in his career?

Lance Henriksen 6:42
Well, he was a kid. Yeah. He was a kid. I went up to him and I said, Look, I want to get one of these little monsters, you know, aliens. And I want to throw my coat over and go into the porta potty and just hold him so we got proof. That was one of the ship takes off. They're gone. And he's any look at me like, I don't know, like, I just fell into his birthday cake. And he looked at me anyway. That's, that's a different movie. Okay, I got it. Okay.

Alex Ferrari 7:20
I'm good. Steven. Thank you. Thank you very much. Was there anything that oh, you also you also got to work with Truffaut on that he wasn't he an actor in that correct.

Lance Henriksen 7:31
François Truffaut?

Alex Ferrari 7:32
Yeah, François, right. Yeah. Did you work with him? Did you interact with Truffaut ?

Lance Henriksen 7:36
Oh, he was with him every day.

Alex Ferrari 7:38
What was it? I mean, I got I've never spoken to anyone who actually knew Mr. Truffaut. What was it like what was he like as a as a because he was acting and then not directing?

Lance Henriksen 7:48
I mean, the guy look, I was on that movie for six months. So yeah, getting paid scale. You know, it was okay. Yeah, sure. The truck while I was there, I learned to fly. Because we were on an airport. You know, it was a big airport hangar, right. And I'd get up in the morning at four in the morning, and I'd go do my flying lessons. And then I would land at eight and walk into the set. So I felt like, look at me, I just landed. But anyway, they stopped me when I wanted to skydive. They sent him one of the ladies out there said you can't do it. So

Alex Ferrari 8:37
Please, yeah, now I'll put it after production. Do it all you like, after production you could do it all you like, but not while we're doing it production.

Lance Henriksen 8:45
François Truffaut this is his story. He did a movie called 400 blows. Sure. So did yours in Germany did Fahrenheit 451 All of this stuff. And I never mentioned 400 blows only because it was two. When I saw it. I was a kid. You know, younger kid. And I didn't want to talk about that. I talked about Jules and Jim I talked about Fahrenheit 451 and all of that. And he at the end of the movie. Well, he got pissed at me, first of all, for always going on standing on the set. He said no, you got to read a book. You got to do something else. You can't be in a hangar watching a movie being made. And I said yeah, but I never saw anything like this. So anyway, he gave me a book by Joshua Logan. And he said I'm going to quiz you on it. That's the kind of guy as you know. And I said okay, and I only read the Marlon Brando chapter from tea house. Niaga small. And it said Josh Logan said This is like walking through a maze with me but I'm filling you in on all the little truths. But anyway said the first two Tech's he did with random one, Brando gave it everything in that tech. And the second take that Brando did with him. He did nothing. And you said the biggest mistake I ever made was choosing second date. That is the truth. Whoa, I got that piece of information.

Alex Ferrari 10:39
That's amazing. It's amazing. So I think

Lance Henriksen 10:45
Kindest guy in the world. Yeah. And if you were a restaurant, all the women in the restaurant would like zero and on him. He had that energy. I don't know, French dress good.

Alex Ferrari 11:01
There was that vibe, that vibe. There's a thing that's it's you can't really, when you've got it, you got it. And you know,

Lance Henriksen 11:07
When you got it, you don't have to push. You had a lot of girlfriends along the way. I got to learn from you tell me how to do that.

Alex Ferrari 11:19
So there's so one of the films that I see. I saw you and I, you know, I remember you vividly and it was a terminator. And there has been so many mythical stories. It's almost folklore on how that movie was made. And you know it Jim did this, Jim do that. How did what was it like from your sight from your perspective working on that film? And what are the truths behind?

Lance Henriksen 11:48
He said to me go in to Emmerdale. You know, do the Terminator

Alex Ferrari 11:54
Because you were originally going to be the Terminator.

Lance Henriksen 11:58
I blew it though. Because Jim said go in 15 minutes before me. And I said, okay, and then I'll leave. You know, I'll just give a shout out, shake him up. And so I kept the door open am Dells office. And, and the Secretary was sitting there, grabbed her typewriter and pulled it off into her lap. She got shook, because I had cuts and silver teeth. And then I went into handhelds office. And I soon just stared at him for like, five minutes. And then Jim arrived and I left. You know, I didn't even I didn't even think I was going to do Terminator. I mean, I would have played him more like, like a spider, a real dangerous spider. Right, which they're fun. He was like a bulldozer. So that was fine. Yeah, I mean, Winfield and I, Paul Winfield. We had a great relationship. We made each other fucking crack up all the time. So it was what was great about it. It was Gail Bell. Her was producing it, I think. And it was like, Jim was coming out of the chute, you could tell he just just had a rhythm about him. And he always does. He knows. He's like an isolated animal of some kind. That is just so focused, you know, after we did aliens, and it was one of the most dynamic directors I've ever worked with ever.

Alex Ferrari 13:43
But you also, but you also worked with him on Pirana to the spawning, as well. Right? Is that where you met him?

Lance Henriksen 13:49
We don't talk about that. No, no, we don't it's just like awful.

Alex Ferrari 14:00
What Jim but Jim says it is the best flying Pirana movie ever made.

Lance Henriksen 14:09
Yeah, it was so excited because I had to buy my wardrobe. Off the waiter. Okay, because I had no wardrobe. Right? So I gave the guy 75 bucks for his pants and a shirt. Because I'm playing a harbor cop. It had a blue stripe. But I got over that really quick.

Alex Ferrari 14:38
So when you do you imagine you've met Jim on that show, right?

Lance Henriksen 14:42
Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 14:45
I'm sorry. That's the best thing about the movies.

Lance Henriksen 14:49
But even I saw what he could do, you know? Yeah, it's up and I was buying my suit off a waiter. He was up in his room making rubber fish cuz they didn't have enough of them you know all kinds of stuff. I mean it was I put the harbor boat up on the pier because they wouldn't even be down there let me learn how to drive it. Alright so by x i come weapon and he said come with and then okay I whipped in and put it right up on the pier

Alex Ferrari 15:24
Ohh different times different times. So when you're when you're working on the Terminator because that was a fairly low budget film I think it was if I if that if I know the budget was I think anywhere between five to 7 million or something

Lance Henriksen 15:39
You couldn't prove it by me that it was love budget it was but right. I don't know what the budget was. Right. But it was all his friends all the talented people involved in it. You know, is really, once once the train leaves the station, it doesn't stop. Right. And that's no matter what the budget,

Alex Ferrari 16:03
Right! Because if you're going you're going into whoever

Lance Henriksen 16:07
They would go, Yeah, you're in.

Alex Ferrari 16:10
So when you saw Arnold show up as the Terminator for the first time and you saw him What did you what was your first reaction?

Lance Henriksen 16:18
He was he was sitting on the on the steps of his honey wagon. Okay. Trailer, he got a Honeywell Sure will. Because the budget didn't allow, you know, a Tiffany anyway. But anyway, he was sitting there smoking a cigar and a and he was really happy. He was amazingly happy. Just like greeting everybody and making jokes and he was happy. And I was grateful for that

Alex Ferrari 16:58
He is. And and at that time of his life. He was really big. I mean, he was he was still

Lance Henriksen 17:04
He got that all going, you know.

Alex Ferrari 17:07
Yeah. And he was did you see? Did you see the same thing in Jim that you did sign Arnold when you saw him? You're like, Oh, this guy's gonna be a star. Did you see that? When you were on the set?

Lance Henriksen 17:17
I know how I saw how Jim was treating Jim was treating him. Like I don't know. He was telling him everything that he needed. Jim would tell him. I need you to be quiet and just look up. Walked out way. You know, I mean, he knew what he wanted from Arnold. It's good. It wasn't you know, wasn't the later. Be careful.

Alex Ferrari 17:51
Right. Yeah, he barely had any dialogue on the first one. Then he opened up in the second one a bit.

Lance Henriksen 17:58
Yeah, yeah. Those lines Get Cover!.

Alex Ferrari 18:05
Get down! Now one of your best known characters, his Bishop in Aliens, which you brought such humanity to that Android. It is remarkable.

Lance Henriksen 18:28
It was really on purpose. I hadn't I had made a decision that before I even got to England, you know, that there was what what is Android is he say, a protecting devices, a tech take care of humans to devices is also as vulnerable as during Apartheid a black child, you know, who wouldn't even dream of making any motions or noise? Because they're afraid of getting snuffed out? You know, I mean, anyway, a lot of elements like that work. I wouldn't dream of hurting anybody or anything. You know, I mean, it was there was the, the innocence of that, you know, so. And I got the role, but Jim said, in England, if you if you've got a if there's somebody in England, it's better. Jim told me, he said I would have given him the part but what you brought to the table was just exactly was good, you know, so grateful for that. Now, you learn shit to do with the knives and stuff because he told me, he called me before I went to London said Remember when we used to do the knife thing? And I said, Yeah, I can get good at it. When I got to England, I had all 29 Because I know it, he might pick a different, and I had to work with all of them. Sure. So I got there. I was good at it all. But anyway, they almost wouldn't let me in the country. Because the guy, they saw it on the scanner that I had knives and said, step away from your bags. Not let me in. Yeah. All right. Pretty active around that time.

Alex Ferrari 20:33
Sure, sure. And that was 86' 85'. So that's not even post 911 For God's sakes. Can you imagine? It must have been on edge.

Lance Henriksen 20:42
Yeah

Alex Ferrari 20:45
Now is there's so many, you know, stories of the English crew and Jim and Gail having such a hard time making that movie because they were basically fighting the crew and they didn't really believe in Jim and no one had seen Terminator yet.

Lance Henriksen 21:03
Yet. They were given them. They were dragging their feet, they were taking tea breaks every five minutes, they go to the bar that was at Pinewood and they had lunch near come back and slowed down again. You know, I mean, it was, those guys were all under contract. So they didn't have anybody, but they, despite all of that personality stuff going on. They called him Grizzly Adams, Jim, because you have grown a little beard. And who the hell was he to come in after Ridley Scott. You know, who is a British are better, you know, was their whole thing. And and it was like, for us. It banded us together even more. The only time it wasn't Bishop was one of one of the ad's British Hadees pushed me on the chest. You know, say hey said stop. Push me. I said you do that again. I'm gonna kick your ass. I meant Sure so who? I'll never forget his face when I did that. He got shut up man, you don't fucking push me.

Alex Ferrari 22:22
New York In New York maybe?

Lance Henriksen 22:28
Oh, good.

Alex Ferrari 22:29
And I'm assuming and I'm assuming having a

Lance Henriksen 22:33
Days, weeks and months of working together all of us. We all know each other and believed in each other. You know, that's, that's a different feeling. than just going we're gonna leave a bunch of garbage in pull our trailer out of here and we're gonna go home. We didn't do that we were there to do it. Really do. And those guys by the way. The guys on contract mind would. There was some of the best makers of props and things and sets. They were unbelievably good. If they just welcomed us, we would have been fine. But so we went through about a month a bullshit. And then I guess I don't know the real story behind it. But Gail was saying we'll just get out we'll leave here and go do it somewhere else. You know, you're not gonna screw up his movie. I mean, and they turned around turned around completely.

Alex Ferrari 23:38
Really? Yeah. Yeah, because I can imagine that having you know, in 1986 A female producer on top of it all was it was a shock because you generally didn't have female promoters.

Lance Henriksen 23:52
She's 5'5" you know she's but tough. Oh, yeah. She's smart. I love her.

Alex Ferrari 24:02
And she and and honestly, many people say this and I say it as well as aliens is essentially a masterpiece in in the genre there really it really holds up.

Lance Henriksen 24:13
It is it holds up.

Alex Ferrari 24:14
You can watch that today. You can still watch that today. And it's not you don't you don't see the date. There's no date.

Lance Henriksen 24:21
Oh, we get a lot more attention than I am. Now.

Alex Ferrari 24:24
Oh, okay. Now you also, right, exactly. Now that you also worked on another classic film called near dark with with Miss Kathryn Bigelow. I remember I was working in a video store in the 80s late 80s Oh yeah, I work I worked in a video store for five years. All I saw everything from 86 movies from 86 to like 93 I pretty much watched everything Because anything that came out, I watched it because it was I was in a video store, I was a kid in high school didn't have much social life. So that's all I did was just watch three, four movies a day, constantly. So I remember watching your dark, I was just like, Oh, my God, this is remarkable. And I have to say, Kathryn Bigelow is easily one of the best action directors of her generation, and she doesn't get the credit that she deserves, in my opinion. I mean, she won the Oscar obviously, for for, for her lock on everything. But as an action director, Mike got sheet. She holds her own with anybody.

Lance Henriksen 25:32
Anybody believe me

Alex Ferrari 25:37
What was it like working on that?

Lance Henriksen 25:39
You know, she would do things incredible. Like, we had to, we had to deal with sunlight. So we're, we improvised a whole rehearsal of how do you enter a room that's brightly lit with Windows and stuff? So we would improvise all the things and we actually use them in the movie. I mean, we, our instincts were already there. Because we rehearsed. You know, spraying the windows, put tin foils on the windows, like Elvis used to do in Vegas. And then, um, we would improvise even dialogue where we had we had these characters down so well, no matter what you threw out those. We would, we would, Billy Paxton was brilliant. At work he did, and all of us felt we were those people. The day we finished shooting, we're standing on a road in Arizona. And we suddenly said, we should start the prequel right now. Because we were ready. We liked these characters.

Alex Ferrari 26:56
And there was never seek and there was never sequel or prequel. And it's such a sad,

Lance Henriksen 27:01
Went belly up. So our first ad was as big as this. You know? And so it just lost. It was lost boys doing rock and roll vampires. It was like, come on, but they had full page ads.

Alex Ferrari 27:21
So yeah, you were the cult, the cult film.

Lance Henriksen 27:26
Poor step kid.

Alex Ferrari 27:28
But I mean, anyone listening, if you have not seen near dark is arguably one of the best vampire films ever made it no question.

Lance Henriksen 27:35
Much fun, man. We pick your own wardrobes, right? They, you know, they had some we had a great wardrobe guy. And I said, we had to write our own bios, like, how did we get turned? Where did we come from? We had to ride a mile. And mine was that that I was sailing on an iron clad for the south during the Civil War. And we got slaughtered by it by you know, cannons from the shore and stuff. But we kept drifting into the marshes at night. And we started to get fed on the lot of vampires feeding on the dying man. And I got I got a turn because my chest was blown open and, and I was steaming into the night air. And it stood over man, and instead of killing me and feeding on me and turn me so I mean, I have my own figured out. That's why I had a rebel flag inside my code and my hair had a pigtail on a dipped in tar, like Stiller's did back in those days. You know, we just created our own our own ambience and we picked each other up along the way. That's what if we had done a what he call it, you know, a prequel, he would see all those people got together. They're different. The 20s 1800s You know,

Alex Ferrari 29:22
That wouldn't have been that would have been amazing. You could have done you could have done an anreise thing where you go through all history kind of figure

Lance Henriksen 29:32
Have dinner with her. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 29:34
What does she love the film? Does she like the film?

Lance Henriksen 29:39
Oh, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 29:44
Now, you

Lance Henriksen 29:47
You know after I did the movie.

Alex Ferrari 29:50
Now you you've you've worked with so many directors is there. I'm not going to ask you if you have a favorite director but is there a way that that you like to be directed and and then did you connect with a certain director in a way from like, as a collaborator in a way that just stepped stands out throughout your career?

Lance Henriksen 30:11
Yeah. I met with so many good ones, you know, I mean, it's there, there is an automatic kind of understanding a member, a member, certainly, Sydney Limmat. Love New York actors, he would hire you and say, Look, this, this part only lasts a week, but I'm going to give you a run on the show, because you wanted to, say, get an apartment, you didn't know. It was like, he is the kindest man. And it was great to be around him because he was so knowledgeable. You know, standing on the set with the best actors in New York. All around you, and you're watching these guys work. And I was young. You know, I was 30. So it was like, yeah, it was my, my experience. I could never single out one. There are parts of all of them that I'll never forget. You know, and they influence me about freedom and about, you know, how to how to make something that it's even beyond your wildest dream by just getting on board and going with it. Get off these guys. They they they're not Intimidators they're nice. They're nice people. You know, most that especially in that era, the 80s and the 90s.

Alex Ferrari 31:46
Did you is your Is there a way that you'd like to be directed as an actor? Because I know every actor has a different way. Some people want more attention.

Lance Henriksen 31:56
Yeah, everything happens in rehearsal. You know, when you're when you're approaching when you're no part, I did a movie with Viggo Mortensen, who was he was probably one of the kindest, smartest people I've ever worked with, is he wrote it, directed it Zenna he produced it. I mean, did the music for it, and edited cheeses and never complain the minute we just was so busy trying to form those that relationship and those relationships. It was the greatest experience I've ever had. I mean, it's like, but that's for a very different reasons. So we're the only mechanical thing in it. I mean, the rest is, was shot beautifully and all of that. But by the time we started, we knew what we were going to do.

Alex Ferrari 33:00
What advice would you give a young filmmaker or film directors in general, on directing actors, because I find that they focus so much on the lenses and the gear and the how, look how many K's we have, but they don't focus on.

Lance Henriksen 33:16
Everybody's at them to get information. Right. Right. That's part of the deal. You know, the camera guys, they it's all about he is the core focus of it is getting less. So there are more producers, businessman with they know the answers to everything. Right? Like politicians talk out of both sides of their mouth and out there. And everything. Where the director is responsible. I mean, he's responsible for the approach that there's so many levels. But it's also they've got a bunch of ravens trying to pick their eyeballs out, you know, which are the producers?

Alex Ferrari 34:06
Right? Or the studio execs or something along those lines. Yeah. But is there a way that you would recommend directors working or approaching actors and how they work?

Lance Henriksen 34:17
Well, yeah, I mean, just, I think the only answer is just to be heard. And I think it's up to the actors not to prove, you know, not to do it at an inappropriate time. We've got a guy jump in and jump off the hook onto an airbag and you're talking about what do you think I jump in my car and try to save him? What do I do? You know, I mean, why don't you just shut up and go watch, you know, right now.

Alex Ferrari 34:48
Is it. Is it true? And I want out because I always tell people there's my experience as a director, that actors sometimes if they don't feel safe on set, they will test The director to see if they feel if there's if this is a safe space. And if it's not, they might go rogue, they might protect themselves and they might shut down and they're like, look, I'm here. I got to do what I got to do. But this is obviously I'm not getting the support I need. Do you find that actors do test director sometimes just to see where they're at? in general?

Lance Henriksen 35:20
I don't know what neurosis an actor might bring with him. Sure. I don't have any, any way. I know what I do. Okay. I mean, I, I've done now it looks like somebody said the other day that I've done 300 movies. Well, that's a shocker. Because that's, that's a lot of days, weeks, months and years on a set. Yeah. One thing. I guess one of my favorite. Jim Jarmusch is probably one of the kindest, illuminated humans that I've ever worked with. I remember getting a part in for I forget the name of the movie. And I walked in, and I said, Jim, look, I know, I might not get the part because of what I'm going to say. But, but I don't think anything you wrote for this character that I'm going to play has anything to do with, with acting or whatever it is, you know, I mean, I can improvise everything through this whole movie. And make it work as a Western, you know, with Johnny Depp. And you know, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 36:41
Dead man it was called dead man.

Lance Henriksen 36:45
Yeah, I'm talking so much that I'm forgetting. No, but when I'm talking, I don't think And fair enough. So But anyway, that's what I did in that movie. I improvised the whole role. Wow. Yeah, I remember walking, I had to kill this kid who? This black kid who's, he's got knives. And he's a nasty kind of guide. And he insults me. And I remember walking into a Native American post, and looking at all the stuff, you know, the beautiful jewelry and all that. But there was a brick. And and I said to the guy and there was a car painted on the brick. I said, what is that? And he goes, it's Navajo mentor. And as a wife, okay. When I got on the set, and I shot that kid, he said, he said, he's only my partner said he's only a kid. He's just a kid. And I said, Well, isn't Melbourne on mud toy now? How? Wow. It's like I go through a period of gathering. Unconscious gathering was something that intrigues me. I, I know I'm going to do this move beyond seeing it through the eyes of the character. So so that was a great experience because he just let me fly. That must have been I was an actor anymore. You were being just being

Alex Ferrari 38:34
Yeah, that's amazing. And you also worked on one of my favorite Westerns of all time, the quick and the dead. Quick in the dead. I love clicking a dead.

Lance Henriksen 38:46
Yeah, no, that was a trip. The crew made a they made a thing where they said you cannot kill ace. Mm hmm.

Alex Ferrari 39:01
You were like you were one of the look in that cast was ridiculous. I mean, from Russell Crowe as like a supporting actor. Sharon Stone and Leonardo DiCaprio in you and Sam Raimi is directing and you're just like, a you stood at Jesus. And you stood out like your character was so wonderfully constructed. You played so beautifully. And you're right, like when you when spoiler alert. When you have to end your your scene. I was pissed. I'm like, no,

Lance Henriksen 39:43
No, no. Greet him like that. Right before I went on, I got that little thing with the moustache one thing I didn't know if I was going to use it. But then as Jean was talking me I was going Yeah, Yeah, I shot one guy one, right.

Alex Ferrari 40:05
And how was Sam? How was Sam to work with because I've heard so many wonderful stories about Sam Raimi and as a director working with actors.

Lance Henriksen 40:13
Oh, he was, he was very young, you know, and he was he was so excited about having any camera he wanted anything you wanted. You know, he was he was like, I remember I said, look, look at this wardrobe. I got embroidery all over it. And I said, I, I look like a showman. You know, and so, I went with a buddy of mine, who's Rex Rossi, who was one of the great ropers you know, one of those guys and he, in fact, he was I've wanted him to be my daughter's godfather. And he did, he said, but anyway, I've said, Rex, the guy's a showman, I got to have some way of shooting the card out of this girl's hand and making it a showman, you know? So we started working on and we came up with that flip off the horse, where I just want to turn sideways, flipped off and shot her into the belly. And I showed that to Sam before we did it. And he went, oh, oh, that's in the movie. He was like, yes, that's in the movie. We did it.

Alex Ferrari 41:32
That's that's the thing. Like, I guess that was I think that was probably the first time he was given a real budget and it was a big but I mean, it was a studio project. And he and he had like I could only imagine like having every toy at your disposal with this insane cast

Lance Henriksen 41:49
They set everything up. That was that was one of the great sets.

Alex Ferrari 41:54
Oh, was. It was it was absolutely beautiful. And you also got to work with another director and legendary director, Mr. John Woo. On

Lance Henriksen 42:07
Favorite John was scared because he thought I was going off the deep end, right? Characters so fucking crazy, man. I know. They'll with John. I'm still friends with him. He sent me champagne. I send him pottery, you know? But he's, he's so kind, kind hearted man. He just and he does the most violent films. He's probably getting back at his goats, you know, whatever they are.

Alex Ferrari 42:42
Yeah. And so for everyone listening the movie that that Lance and John worked on was hard target, which was a John Claude Van Damme vehicle back in the 90s. And as Lance's head is twisting left and right as I said this name. But

Lance Henriksen 43:02
Emma's, actually, he's a good guy, and he's very talented. Physically. Sure. Know what I mean? Oh, yeah. You know, he identified seeing when we kicked me in the face. He did a spinning hit. And it just barely touched me. He's so control. Yeah. Made me relax a lot more.

Alex Ferrari 43:25
Yeah, cuz I mean, and this was the first was that what was that the first John Woo American film was a broken arrow. I don't remember if it was that one or broken arrow. I think it might have been the first time he came over from Hong Kong. Yeah, cuz it was I mean, you look at some of these editing. Yeah.

Lance Henriksen 43:45
He was a universal. Yeah, it was universally. One of the producers from the tower would come down and go. How's it going, John? Oh, that scene? What if you cut it that way? And then he'd leave. He would leave. And then another one would come down. He said all I want to do is get out of here. They're not leaving me alone. Keep coming. juggles.

Alex Ferrari 44:19
Now oh, by the way, I have to tell you one of my favorite films I've seen of yours. Which is not one of your better, like best known films, but it impacted me because I saw it on a date. I took my date to see this film in the theater. Yes. And we both loved it. Stone Cold. Oh, Brian Bosworth Brian. Both were stars and you are the main villain as a biker gang. I never forgot that movie. I must have watched that movie a dozen times when I was at video store. I was just he played that part so beautifully. Thank you.

I was a bit fun.

Lance Henriksen 44:56
Changes car. You know what I, again, I do better work when I improvise. Because we had a script the guy, the guy. What happened on that movie was chains was always talking biblical talk literally right out of the Bible, or in the movie, but but in the script, and he got fired. His first dailies came in, I wasn't in any of those scenes, but they saw them and fired him and brought a guy who was really good. Craig Baxley. And Higley, Craig had done stunts and stunts, you know, all kinds of movies and, and Craig came in, and I met him when it came in from the airport. And I met him and I was sitting in the lobby waiting for him. When he came in, and I said, Greg, can we have a beer together or something? Let's talk about this. Because your script, you read it? It's, it's, it's really abusive shit. I mean, it was bad. You know, I don't know how he got the job. The other director, I don't even know. But But anyway. So he said, Well, what are we going to do? Because I said, the dialogue is shit, all of it. So he said, What do you want to do? And I said, Well, we'll get there. If our call time is six. I'll get there at five with, with. Let's just face football. prions was, yeah, but yeah. So and We'll improvise. We'll just improvise the whole scene. We know what it has to actually was, you know, improvise. So that's what we did.

Alex Ferrari 46:57
It worked out, really. So every every every piece of dialogue almost was completely just. Yeah. That's brilliant. That makes that that's a nice little tidbit about that. I mean, over over the course of your career, Lance. I mean, you've been on set like you just said, you've done close at 300 over 300 projects. You've been on set so many times. What was the project or the day that was that stands out in your history in your mind? As like, Man, this is really, how are we going to get out of this? Like, you feel like everything's coming crashing down around you? What was that day? And how did you get through it? How did you make it through that day?

Lance Henriksen 47:42
I try to get those. There's a whole group of movies that I've done. They're called alimony films.

Alex Ferrari 47:52
You said that to me. You said that to me when we work together.

Lance Henriksen 47:56
It's good to know that that's that's real. Yeah. A lot of actors take movies that the only one that's there, they need money, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I've done some of those that were like, oh my god, I thought you know, you. You don't want to be seen on the street when that comes out. You don't want to do, right. I only see my movies once. And then I don't look at them ever again. You know, the only one that I might have watched more than once was powder. Yeah, sugar powder.

Alex Ferrari 48:34
I love powder.

Lance Henriksen 48:35
I thought that that was a really good movie. But, you know, some other political shit happened. I didn't go to release but but you know what? You got to take the good with the bad. You really do? I mean, try to do something. I have a will that says don't give up, man. You know, just be there. Be there even for a bad situation. You know, don't don't don't run away. Because that then you turn into a runaway

Alex Ferrari 49:13
Now is there.

Lance Henriksen 49:15
You have to go with it. I would. I would like to mention some of those big only because they tried everybody tried. Sure. Yeah. And they were stricken by a lot of different things. Like look oh can happen on a sir. When you when you see this wonderful woman. She was when I met her. She was a Steadicam operator, very strong woman and wonderful and beautiful. And you know, and she gets shot on a set. That's that's the ultimate total thing. I mean, it's over. Once that happens. I mean, it's over. Right? You fix in you know It's gonna be an ugly thing for a long time. But anyway, that's how bad it can get. I've never been hurt on the side. In my 300 movies never been hurt. And I've done physical shit wherever anybody, I don't care. You know, I'm still doing it. It's like I'm not. I'll probably just drop dead quickly one day, you know? Okay, well, it's a rap.

Alex Ferrari 50:30
It's a rap. And where's Lance Lance is he's got he's got a new cast, they call he's got a new cast, they call. Now, out of all of your movies, and all the people you work with, which is the craziest story that you can share publicly?

Lance Henriksen 50:53
I did a movie called The visitor. Yeah, I was young. Yeah. It's like the the hot young guy in that movie. They just there was Glenn Ford, Shelley Winters, all these actors that we all know from the 40s. You. They were in John Hughes cheeses. All these guys and I got to talk to John. Finally, one day after we made a joke. And he said, Okay, look, I don't want to come back last. So let's do it now. He's like my hero. And I said, Okay, let's let's do it. And I'm staring at him. And he goes, you have the first lines last, so I'm sorry, John. I got my first direction from John Houston. So

Alex Ferrari 51:55
Not a bad Not bad. Not bad.

Lance Henriksen 52:00
Not a bad moment.

Alex Ferrari 52:03
Can we talk a little bit about your new film? Okay.

Lance Henriksen 52:09
The visitor? Yeah. Yeah, I did in Rome. Okay. We go to Rome. The movie turns to shit. I don't know why.

Alex Ferrari 52:20
Because Pirana wasn't Parana shot.

Lance Henriksen 52:24
No, yeah. That was an Italian producer. Yes. Yes. I've never worked in Rome again.

Alex Ferrari 52:32
But your visit, but your visit. Now, tell me about your new film Alpha drift. How did you enjoy working on that?

Lance Henriksen 52:43
I gotta tell you, I was impressed with him and took that movie. Because he started is almost like with a grain of sand. You know, he made key chains with the alphabet symbol on it. And every day, he was battling budget every day. And that's why that was done years ago. And now it's coming out. You know, I think almost three years, two or three years. But he was tenacious. He's a guy that we'll talk about. I won't give up. And then he would, he would do what good movie makers do they wangle what they want. I want a McLaren. And one of his people pull some strings. And they got a McLaren. That is the most expensive car in the world. There's some have sold for $13 million at least a million to drive it. And the owner was standing by the fucking camera shaking. Because it's so fast. If you just touched that gas, you're gonna fly down, you know, Moon, you're gone. And again, that's an example of making do as good as you can. With limited, you know, with limited choices, and you did very well with it. His location choices were were good choices because he was containing it. You know, I mean, I wanted to do it. I just felt I didn't. I didn't really understand it. When I first started the hell I was, you know, you know, it's, it's a very it's a very, almost like looking back into time. In a way. They're dragging the past into the present. And saying to a young man, you're genetically right. You are the next whatever. Why I had to respect it and do the best I could, you know, I mean, with what we had. And and it was, and it looks like he pulled it off because he got distribution. I'm really, I'm super happy for him. I really am.

Alex Ferrari 55:18
Yeah. And we'll put and we'll put links on where you guys can watch Alpha drift afterwards. It does look fantastic. It's a good fit. It's a family film. So it looks like a lot of fun.

Lance Henriksen 55:26
There isn't a real rough moment in it. Well, listen, killings, but sure, your demons so it's not. You Have you noticed how violent all the movies are like on YouTube and all these cable things?

Alex Ferrari 55:47
It makes it it makes the 80s look tame.

Lance Henriksen 55:51
Oh, yeah, it's more murders than you can imagine. Right and peak ruimin You know, where you're seeing a little bit? Not a lot, you know, there. But it's just the whole porridge. They're like remakes of movies that are still out. You can

Alex Ferrari 56:09
Look I look. When they remade point break. I was like, stop it. Is that that is a masterpiece of its time. You can't really?

Lance Henriksen 56:21
Yeah, what you can't you can't remake that. They're just going over to I think screenwriters Guild and saying, Can I read a bunch of these scripts? And they do. And then they write out a clone of that script.

Alex Ferrari 56:35
It's, it's, it's because everyone because if you know, you know this better than most that the whole town is run by fear. So you know, because it's run by fear. They're like, well, this is has an established audience that they think is going to come out but like, perfect example. Any executives listening out there? You bring a movie like point break out there who's a generation who's gonna watch Point Break my generation, the one that grew up with Point Break? Really? What are we going to run out to see Point Break? The remake? No. And then the new kids are going to be like, what's that? Oh, skydiving? Oh, that's not a big deal. But in 1990, whatever it was when it came out. No one had really seen before.

Lance Henriksen 57:17
No, you're right. Right. So it's different. Reaction, a lot of stories. Even Korean movie companies are doing their we our movies, their movies, or doesn't matter.

Alex Ferrari 57:35
But the funny thing is that the that the era that they're mining, was allowed to be creative. Where you could make a Gremlins of Goonies a Terminator, and aliens, you know, can you imagine trying to launch an aliens franchise now without the IP of aliens? But can you imagine just alien in it just wouldn't wouldn't be not not in the studio system you'd have to do in in the independent world.

Lance Henriksen 58:03
I think I think that's a great description what's going on now? Which made me feel like I never want to be a director. I have no interest at all. I'm a better supporter of a director. Alright, then, you know, of wanting to be one who 100 people a day, hitting you up for answers? Who the hell wants to live like that?

Alex Ferrari 58:31
I love it. Some people are built like that.

Lance Henriksen 58:36
But see, you maybe will break out into your dream so totally, that it will be what you want it to do. But I have no desire. I'm in a job that I shouldn't be doing.

Alex Ferrari 58:50
Right. And I have like, I've had to act a couple times in my life in front of the camera and it. No, no, thank you. It's not what I like to do. It is terrifying. I have such respect. Oh my god, it's an it even when I was playing myself on camera for a movie. It still was terrifying for me. I was like, oh my god, this is horrible. I don't want to be in front of camera ever again.

Lance Henriksen 59:17
You feel a lot better. Yeah. That's it. Okay. Looks from a different mother. But

Alex Ferrari 59:26
Now I'm going to ask you a few questions. I asked all of my guests. Lance. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Lance Henriksen 59:35
God, that's hard. I just did a movie. And it's called the artifice girl. And a guy named Franklin rich directed it wrote it. He's even in it. It's a three act movie. I feel I feel like it's one of the most interesting roles I've ever done. Yeah, and he wrote it, he did it. And the relationship during the shooting was this was in Florida. This is gonna come out and peep is so original and so good. I mean, I'm proud of it. I'm proud of I really am. I mean, I've done like three movies over the last year or so. And they're all different. They're all different. Sure. And I've been lucky. I mean, there's no word to touch you. But anyway, it's, I've been blessed with a career.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:40
Absolutely. Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Lance Henriksen 1:00:48
Wait, say that again?

Alex Ferrari 1:00:49
What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Lance Henriksen 1:00:57
I think there's a pocket in all brands where we have a fantasy world apart. And it's like a, it's probably a different organ and I was born with it. I didn't know I had it. But really what it's about, I think, is learning how to be a human, you know, a humanity. That I think when I see people be kind to somebody else. I am. I just get a lift. I get a jolt, right. We're slipping through some nasty shit right now. Excuse my friends. Sure. That we really need to see the best in people and not not fucking punish them because they made a mistake. And even in dialogue, everybody wants to punish somebody. I blame I blame politicians for all

Alex Ferrari 1:01:57
Yeah, I

Lance Henriksen 1:01:59
I think that whole system sucks.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:03
Well, I think they've been saying that says politics were created. Yeah. Now and last question, if you can answer this three of your favorite films of all time.

Lance Henriksen 1:02:18
Oh, yeah. Well, they are the 80s films. I mean, it's certainly aliens. Your dark the ones you mentioned there. And Jim Jarmusch his movie dead man. Yeah, I love that card is total killer. But even killers have a soul?

Alex Ferrari 1:02:43
Well, that's the thing. You have played a lot of bad guys in your day. And you always bring humanity to all of those bad guys. And I think that's what makes a good bad guy is that there's something it's not if you're just twisting your your mustache literally and going Haha, I'm just bad to be bad. It's boring. You know, we're not in. It's yeah, it's not 1910 anymore. We're not on a train track anymore. Bad guys need to have depth. And you brought that to every bad guy ever seen you play

Lance Henriksen 1:03:10
Some of these action movies that are on you know, like Netflix. Really well done. Especially the Chinese ones. South Korean ones. They're in terms of action movies, these guys. And they're way ahead of us now. I mean, it's like an occasionally there's one of those movies with American. Right. Mariah good.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:44
Yeah. All right, kill him and make it a lot. Kill him a lot.

Lance Henriksen 1:03:50
A lot, a lot. And then he comes back and a lot more than that.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:55
Oh, no, I didn't it. Um, Frank Grillo, the actor Frank Grillo. He's like one of the biggest movie stars in the Chinese market because he just plays the American bad guy.

Lance Henriksen 1:04:06
You want to hear something? Yeah. Yeah. The Chinese is smart. i The Macao International Film Festival was on when falling was shown there. The one I did with Vigo they gave me best actor. Wow. shockers. Here's the shocker. I mean, I was done that I got this wonderful actress, you know, gave it to me and all this stuff. But what blew me away was China. Love this American story. They love the movie. I mean, it was and this is our story. This is a guy slipping into dementia and a son. And it's it's just I was like gave the the award away I gave it said the guy that worked with me when I was preparing for that movie. You know, he worked with me for a month and when I got the award I I look up and I got a bunch of awards. My daughter when she was five used to polish them, that's about what they're worth, you know, I mean, but I knew that if I gave it to this young young kid who was really smart and he studied acting in Ireland and stuff he's really bright. And I knew I needed to stir the pot I really need to find a way to make it real and Vigo would come over and we we'd rehearse a little bit you know and stuff. But he deserved it. I wanted him to be happy that he had that experience because the movie speaks for itself. The movies is what it is is wonderful movie less skilled our release. And Corona just shot.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:13
Lance it has been an absolute honor and pleasure talking to you my friend it I mean I can keep talking to you for at least five or six more days. Just to try to go over your career. But is

Lance Henriksen 1:06:26
Dan Lance by the way, let's let's leave it with him. Here's a guy who inevitably will make movies with the budget he needs. And you'll have this but he did this all by himself. This is like him and his friends. It's not a it's not a low budget looking film at all.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:50
No, you're talking about Alpha drift. Alpha drift

Lance Henriksen 1:06:54
Yes, kids will like it.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:57
I iIThank you for your time my friend and also thank you for your for the work that you've done as an artist throughout your career. It is it is is definitely affected my life over the years and it was again an honor working with you on my little short film all those years ago. So thank you again, my friend and continued health and success team, my friend.

Lance Henriksen 1:07:19
I'll see you down the road. There's more to come!

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IFH 532: David Fincher & The Art of Cinematography with Oscar® Nominee Jeff Cronenweth

Jeff Cronenweth A.S.C., Jeff Cronenweth

Today on the show we have Oscar® nominee Jeff Cronenweth A.S.C. 

Cronenweth worked as a loader and 2nd assistant before graduating high school, and then enrolled in film school at USC where he studied cinematography. Among his classmates were John Schwartzman and Robert Brinkmann, as well as [director] Philip Joanou.

After graduation, Cronenweth resumed working with his father, joining a core camera team that included operators John Toll and Dan Lerner, and 1st assistants Bing Sokolsky and Art Schwab.

Jeff worked with father Jordan Cronenweth (cinematographer most notable for Blade Runner) as a camera loader and second assistant camera during high school, working his way up to first assistant camera and then camera operator until the mid-1990s.

Moving up to first assistant, Cronenweth began working with Toll, who was just beginning his work as a cameraman, and veteran Sven Nykvist.

“I couldn’t have learned from better people than John, Sven and my father,”

Cronenweth relates.

“They were all soft-spoken, but very tenacious in achieving their goals. It was a great experience to watch them, learn set etiquette and see how they delegated responsibilities and dealt with producers and crews. I did six pictures with my father and eight pictures with Sven.” [From American Cinematographer Magazine.]

The first major motion picture where he acted as a DP was on David Fincher‘s masterpiece Fight Club. Other notable feature films on which he worked as a DP are One Hour Photo, K-19: The Widowmaker, Down With Love, The Social Network, Hitchcock, The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, and Gone Girl.

Enjoy my conversation with Jeff Cronenweth A.S.C.

Right-click here to download the MP3

 

Alex Ferrari 0:00
I'd like to welcome to the show Jeff Cronenweth how're you doing, Jeff?

Jeff Cronenweth 0:14
I'm excellent. Alex, thanks for having me on.

Alex Ferrari 0:17
Thank you so much for being on the show. Man. I've, I've been a fan of yours for a long time because I am a lens geek. I am. I'm a DP geek, in the sense of how, look, things look and stuff like that. And I've studied your work as a director and as a colorist, for a long, long, long time. Especially the work you've done with music videos, your stuff with Fincher yourself with Romanic Romana grazer as Mark Romanek. I pronounce it right.

Jeff Cronenweth 0:50
Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 0:51
All that kind of stuff. So before we jump into the weeds with you, man, how did you get started in the business?

Jeff Cronenweth 0:58
Well, true nepotism, if you will, but longer story than that my great grandfather owned a camera store in Pittsburgh. My grandfather was a portrait still photographer for the studios on staff at Columbia Well, throughout his career, various studios, but they used to have an Oscar category for still photography, you have to put yourself in that era and realize like the technology prevented him to take it from taking pictures next to us on set, like, like people do nowadays. And so they had their own sets and directed the talent and built the sets. And that was the sole source of publicity for you know, the entire movie, so there was more weight on that and so he won an Oscar for action still photographer, the picture of Judy Garland and Mickey Rooney and 1941 and, and then my father, who's Jordan Crona with shot Blade Runner amongst Blade Runner Peggy Sue Got Mallard altered state state of grace, you know. And then including, Oh, Father music video with with Fincher and Rattle and Hum with with Phil's Juana. And so I always had been around it from early age, you know, visiting the set and just loved the camaraderie and the kind of common goal of accomplishing or overcoming that day's complications. And it just seemed like a great team creative sport to me. And I didn't know what I wanted to do. But I knew I wanted to do something in it. You know, it's like, every morning, they went to war, and every day, at the end of the day, they came back and kind of celebrate the victory of that day. So it was intriguing to me. And so I followed in his footsteps, you know, I went to, I started a junior college, and there was an opportunity with the goal of going to USC film school, and there was an opportunity to get into the Union. So my dad called and said, stop going to school right now come join. It was very difficult in those days to get in. And so I went and worked for about two years as a staff loader at a commercial company in Hollywood. The debate at the moment, in our family at that time was he was about to start Blade Runner. I was 19 years old. It was a very high scrutinized movie. It was the only going on on in town. Ridley Scott's first movie in United States there was all kinds of tensions on the set. It was a lot of nights when wet, you know, and he thought that it was a crapshoot. If I if I went for that, that I would get into the IA instead he said, you're better chances are of going working at this stuff as a staff loader at this company. And if no one's available in 30 days, you get in and then you learn all about camera gear. And so I didn't do Blade Runner. But quite honestly, you know, at 19 That movie was really a handful. And I think i i Instead I ended up like prepping five camera shows a day for commercials have different packages and distributor ups. And you know, I, of course what I love to have had a blade runner on my resume. Instead, I just went after work every day and watched until I got tired and went home.

Alex Ferrari 4:27
So you actually weren't you were on the set. You were actually hanging out watching your father where

Jeff Cronenweth 4:30
I was on a set as much as I could. Yeah, oh, I was working in Studio City. And they were at Warner Brothers on the backlot. So it was quite close. And then and then after I got in and after work for a year, I went back to college and graduated from film school at USC and in my class was Phil's wanna Robert Brinkman. John Schwartzman. We can go on but there was a few of us that all stayed friends three of us became DPS. Phil went on to dreck and he directed a movie that you know my dad shot state of grace, amazing looking, authentic looking movie for that for that period. And and then I worked for Phil for years after that, you know shooting commercials and music videos and all kinds of things. So I kind of went that and then I went the Craftsman route, you know? Like it's a great segue because Robert and Robert Brinkman and John and John Schwartzman came out and music videos are just starting to materialize. And so they shot a lot of a corporate moving industrials, we call them sure and learned, learned by making their own mistakes, but actually shooting. I did it the other way. I was a film voter and then I was a second assistant. And then I was a first assistant and I was a camera operator. But the sets I was working on were the biggest sets going at the time, you know, and so I watched, or the idea was that I would watch master solve problems. I wish I paid more attention later. But

Alex Ferrari 6:02
An't that Ain't that the truth?

Jeff Cronenweth 6:05
Like, man, how would he have solved this problem? And so you know, I had a had a great like I worked with, with my dad, of course, and John tall, and Laszlo and Gordon Willis and high school, and Bill most and I did eight movies with spend Nyquist, and, and they all they all had different styles and different personalities. But they all had the same kind of low key, not insecure, listen to anybody that had a good idea wasn't threatened, great camaraderie on the set, great control and set management. And so I was very fortunate to learn and watch all them. Ironically, Schwartzman and brakeman probably beat me by a couple years, until I was shooting the same size movies that they were shooting. But but we all got to the same place. So you know, there, I guess at the end of that long story, there's not really one way better than the other way. For me, I think we're individuals for me. I needed to mature more and watch and learn slowly. And but there is no, there is no replacement for hands on doing it yourself. So it's a combination of both.

Alex Ferrari 7:20
Yeah, I think it's also there's a lost art of The Apprentice. I mean, the apprentice I mean, that's the only way when I was coming up in the 90s. I mean, that's how I learned I was on set, I was learning behind someone who had done it before. And there is still that obviously, in the camera department specifically. But it's not as is not the apprenticeship is not something that is as done as much as it used to be. It's kind of like a lost art almost like all this. I mean, you just did laid out years of work, you know, working a couple years in in a camera shop, the amount of knowledge you got about those film cameras back then. I mean, you when you finally got on set, you were like, Yeah, I know that. I know that I know how to do that, because you've done it all. But so many DPS nowadays. It's just like, well, I got a RED camera, I'm a DP.

Jeff Cronenweth 8:09
And there is truth to that. But I fear there's no history behind the choices being made. Do you need it? Um, no, I suppose you can just make pretty pictures. And that's fine. But there's a lot of logic about where where the industry came from why we compose or photograph things a certain way, in continuity, which is a hard thing to learn. Because it's really easy to shoot a pretty master, it's really hard to do two days of coverage of that master to make it look like that same two minutes of time, but make each shot stand out and be beautiful. And that's what separates the men from the boys or from the adults from the children, if you will. And so that's something that that's harder to deal with. And then, you know, managing a crew is a lot of have been successful on the set, and dealing with studios and figuring out how to navigate through the complexity of that and egos and personalities. And, you know, getting what you need to get to visually support the movie the way you want to support it. So those are all things that I would not trade for anything and that I see could be something that's more challenging for young filmmakers that don't go that route. Yeah, that said that said when I was a when I went to USC, there was no internet and there was no downloading cable and there was no DVDs. And there was no VHS I don't think let me know that. There had to be tested.

Alex Ferrari 9:37
When what year were they just started

Jeff Cronenweth 9:40
82. But what I'm what my point is, you had to go to a place like that in order to see all the classic movies and review them and talk about them and dissect them. You couldn't just click on something and watch a scene. It didn't exist. If you were lucky. There might be a midnight show and some off off You know, small Theater in Hollywood, you can go watch a classic film. And so learning that and that history and that knowledge was something that today, you can click on a movie, you can dissect that movie, you can look at a particular scene that you want, you can count the frames, you can analyze the train. And usually there's a whole lot of discussion from either the director or somebody else on the on the, on the show that describes what happened and why it happened in those things. So in a way, you know, it doesn't replace doing it yourself. That's the thing. Like no matter what you read, or write or learn, or watch, you still got to make films and you still got a photograph, and you still gotta try to cut things together and find out why it works and doesn't. But that was the reason that it was so important at that time. And nowadays, I think there's such a enormous amount of resources available to filmmakers, that it does shortcut at some degree. Right?

Alex Ferrari 10:54
Yeah. Because I mean, yeah, I remember, in the 80s, there's like, there was nothing about filmmaking like nothing. You couldn't even you had the occasional Star Wars making of or Raiders of the Lost Ark making of VHS. And then you had criterion laser discs. And that was,

Jeff Cronenweth 11:09
That was later than LaserDisc.

Alex Ferrari 11:11
I'm talking about like, 88 to 92. And that world is when those came out. But in the early 80s, there was you got to go to libraries, and go like find books about what you are you apprenticed or you're apprenticed.

Jeff Cronenweth 11:23
And if you remember, there was like, one bookstore in Hollywood, and bookstore

Alex Ferrari 11:28
Ohh god. Yeah. Or French, French, French, something French. Yeah, it was over in Studio City. They just shut that they shut down a little while ago.

Jeff Cronenweth 11:36
It was an old one I in Hollywood as well. There's the one in Studio City off of Lankershim was Laurel Canyon, which you're talking Exactly, yeah. And those had a plethora of, of dusty film books that you can go and, and learn about, you know, a director that you you know, you're like that Right, right. Now, now you either just you download the book on your iPad, or you order the book on Amazon, or whatever you do. And it's all right there at your fingertips. So it's different, but it's still doing it. Getting a camera in your hand and doing it is ultimately what it is. It doesn't matter what the camera is, whether it's your iPhone or a camera, it's still telling stories starts there. And that's what you got to do.

Alex Ferrari 12:18
Now, one of your great collaborators of your career is Mr. David Fincher, who I'm a huge, huge, huge fan of Mr. Fincher. And I yeah, he's, he's, he's our generations, Kubrick, in my opinion, and the way he makes his films, specifically Fight Club, is anytime anyone asked me my top three fight clubs, I was on the on the top of that list. I've had Jim rules on the show who wrote Fight Club. And I got to find out first of all, how did you meet David? And you've done a few things prior to your music? You did a bunch of music videos as well. How did you meet him? And what is the working relationship? Like how do you work with David Fincher in 1995 versus David Fincher Gone Girl?

Jeff Cronenweth 13:03
Yeah, those are all great questions. I met him fortunately, through my dad, we did a we did a music video called Oh, Father with Madonna. It was the last video on that that album. And it was a black and white video. I remember it kind of alluded to a not great relationship with a celebrity actor that we all know. And, and we met on that. And then we did a couple commercials. And one of them. was at&t all about the what to expect in the future. And

Alex Ferrari 13:40
I remember, I remember that campaign.

Jeff Cronenweth 13:42
Yeah. they just have like a 20 year or 30 years? Yeah, yeah, remember that? rewatching of it, because it was so accurate. You know, it had an iPad, a pad, which we had never seen before. We didn't we wouldn't come to fruition for another 20 years or 15 years. But we had a guy and I with an iPad on a beach and in St. Yes, yeah. And toll booths that were operator list, you just had a sensor and I remember all these Yeah, a shot of a baby monitor with a dad somewhere else looking at the baby, and classroom with a computer and a projector that had the kids are all working off of laptops. And it was really clever, as you would expect with David, and they wanted to shoot they could only afford to shoot it here in Santa Monica at the beach scene and he just felt like it didn't have the weight to support the concept. So he took me and, and the ad and his producer and we went to St. John. And, and, you know, he told me Well, me go back one step. After the Madonna video he gave he gives me a call and goes I need to shoot an insert of Madonna's teeth with stitches and pearls dropping on the floor. And Panavision said they let us do it and I go great, you guys Meet me at Patterson had to go good. And he goes, bring your meters. I'm like what? meters, I'm gonna focus baller. And so when he goes, this is what I want to do match your dad's light. And he left and I'm like, Oh, God, and I lit it, and it all cut in, you know, it was great. The way it all fit together, and, and then he asked me to shoot this thing in St. John with him. Then I shot second unit on the game. I shot second unit on seven. I was in London with my dad. And when we started aliens three, but the studio, my dad had Parkinson's disease, he was working right through it. And, you know, truth be told there was a lot of animosity about foreigners being there at the time, you know, the film industry was dead. They wanted it all, you know, crew from from London, not just not just the Brits, the production company wanted at Fox wanted it. Everybody wanted it all to be local. And so we went and they felt as the scale of the movie got bigger, he wouldn't be able to keep up. So we got let go. And David heartbroken said, Listen, if you guys aren't here, it's just me, it's an easier armwrestling match for me because they don't have you to hold over my head and, and it'll just be me up against them. And so it was his first show and stuff. So all those things, were building a relationship. And then, of course, the game. And then and then he caught me too. He called me when he had Fight Club, and said, Come come over, and I went over to his house. And he's like this, you know, Brad, Brad jumped the wall the other night and knocked on my door, said you got to read this book and then sat there while I while I read it, he wouldn't leave until I finish that. And so I think it's a these are his words, I think it might be the best movie, he gets to act, and it would probably be the best movie I direct. And it may not make any movie and may not make any money. Uh, but read this and tell me what you think. And if you're interested in shooting them like the answer before he finished the sentence. But of course, I played it like you wouldn't like okay, and, you know, danced all the way to my car. And then read it, of course and was in love with it. I didn't know how we were going to shoot it. It was very complicated script and so much going on, is quite overwhelming at first. And I think a lot of us weren't 100% confident in how it'd be received until it got closer to being finished. You know, because it was such an interesting story. And David had a really had, in his mind, the tempo and the cadence of B and, and the nuances that that were pushing boundaries that we were all like, kind of like, I mean, that's what you want, of course, because you want to ruffle some feathers along the way. Right.

Alex Ferrari 18:03
No, no question. But it's really interesting, because I mean, you know, talking to Jim, I mean, that is an that's an on mapable book. That's an it's an adaptable book, first of all, so that the script was even made is remarkable that the script is almost unfilmable. I mean, you read the Fight Club script. It's like, how, and then the you guys actually pulled it off in the way that you did. I mean, it was it was a it's a masterwork. And I remember when it came on to theater, I saw it in the theater. And it wasn't, it is aged very well. It was not as well received. And it didn't make a whole lot of cash. When it came out.

Jeff Cronenweth 18:41
It's funny. We shot all these great commercials that were as irreverent as the movie was, you know, like Brad standing in a movie theater. Going, in case of emergency. The lights will light up on either side of the roads, here are the two exits. And remember, don't let anybody touch you in the bathing suit area. And, you know, Columbine had happened that summer before and so everybody was quite aware of violence. And so the idea was not to market the film as a fighting film, but because it's really not those are metaphors and sure, different things. But uh they didn't do it, you know, he didn't have he didn't have the publicity control at that point in his career. And they, you know, they put out all this fight footage, and, you know, my parents went to see it, because I made it but they thought it was a boxing movie, you know, based off function.

Alex Ferrari 19:43
It's called Fight Club. Yeah, that's exactly the way they marketed it. Yeah.

Jeff Cronenweth 19:45
And that's what they that's what they showed in the in the trailers and stuff. And so that was unfortunate. It did not work. It was a flop. But ironically, in that first meeting, Fincher was like, I want this to be Our generations Blade Runner in that it describes what the 90s kind of what what it feels like to be in the 90s. And and in Blade Runner was a failure when it came out as well. You know, it wasn't until 10 years later, five years later that it blew up. And the same thing when when the DVDs for fightclub came out, oh my God, it was enormous. And then it became a cult film. And then both both, both Blade Runner and fight club are in the National Archives. Right? Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 20:31
So to go back for a second, that moment when David said, Hey, match your dad's lighting on this, these close ups. If you wouldn't have done a good job there. A lot of your career might have not gone the same way. Just that one is a possibility, right? Like if you would have screwed up that day, or didn't have the knowledge base to be able to do that, from all those years of working hard. Just for that one shot. And David, I think at that point, David, David was still I mean, David was David in the commercial world, like he propaganda was up and running. And you know, he was a big he was a big deal in the commercial world. So it's just it's fascinating that that one moment, I just, I just go back. I'm like, if he would have screwed up that, does he call him again? Does he does he ask him to do another video?

Jeff Cronenweth 21:21
He would call my dad so we would have worked together again, but I don't know that he would have had the trust in me to to do what later came, you know,

Alex Ferrari 21:28
Right. No, exactly. Can you can you explain to people what it's like, what was like shooting music videos and commercials in the 90s? Because that's my that's my sweet. That's my decade. I went to film school during that decade. And I actually had my one of my good friends was the vault operator propaganda. And he would send me VHS of David's reels. This is pre internet. You know, this is before everything was so I could watch him and Michael Bay and Spike Jones and Fuqua and all so he would send me these compilation reels of all this stuff. I saw like I saw the game promos, before anyone saw the game promos like that, with that, that moquette What is it the puppet flying in the air and all that stuff? So I was I was really deep into propaganda, specifically Fincher and like, how can you explain to people what is like, with those budgets? With that, I mean, it was an insane time for music videos.

Jeff Cronenweth 22:21
It was fantastic. Because there was a bunch of very young filmmakers that were unbridled, and you you each, each job, each song that came up, someone was trying to do something that hadn't been done before or a different perspective on it. And you would watch that you're like, Oh, my God, how do that or you know, like Jake Scott shooting entire video backwards in reverse. Yeah, or shooting on Super Eight or shooting, you know, Harris vetus baking film, for a whole video, you know, so that it all had all the kind of warping, textures too, and everything. So it was a it was a wild west of shooting and almost anything went but there was an enormous amount of competition. And people, very creative people, you know, competing against each other. And so the budgets at that time this is pre Napster. So the videos were generating enormous amount of income and sales, record sales. And so the budgets were enormous, you know, I I, Harris betas photograph screen, but I operated in shot second unit on screen. And the screen, you know, is at least if it's not the top, it's right there at 7.2 million. With Janet and Michael Feathers.

Alex Ferrari 23:40
It was I think the bitonal was expensive at the time, I think still is.

Jeff Cronenweth 23:44
It might be Yeah, I don't know. But the budgets were incredible, you know, 1,000,002 million 500,007 50. All all were reasonable budgets. But the quality of the work was really, really interesting. And the ideas were new and fresh and interpreting different musicians and, you know, rap was just coming in and, and so you had the hip hop, you had hip hop before rap, and then you had you know, Jana and Miko, and Madonna and Bowie and George Michael, and you just had a lot of interesting artists that were all blooming at the same time. And the good ones like Madonna and Michael and Jana, they took the videos very serious. You know, there was a lot artists that were young and, um, they'd be hungover that so five hours late and you're looking just going, you know, this isn't for me.

Alex Ferrari 24:43
Like, this is gonna be out there forever.

Jeff Cronenweth 24:46
So you do you run out of money if you show up or don't show up today. So, you know, so there was a big difference between like, people dedicated and you know, they always had interesting concepts with good stories. that were that that did the songs justice, but weren't just like a band playing on a pedestal somewhere, you know, looked it up. And so it was really quite amazing and exciting. You know, I, I think I shot maybe 350 music videos or something, something that degree that's insane.

Alex Ferrari 25:20
Like when you did something like, you know freedom with George Michael like, which was a revolutionary music video because he wasn't in it. Yeah. And David and you put that together. I mean that's I still Well, first of all, it's an amazing song. But like the explosions of the of the, like the explosions on the on the base hit and things like that with the guitars blowing up and the jacket blowing up. I mean, it's just it's just, it's for people that weren't around during that time. I mean, I was working in Miami in the Miami market. And you know, we're Gloria Estefan. And all those guys were and they they were getting million million and a half dollar budget. Second and third tier artists, were getting 250 to 500. And I was working on those. I was like, can you imagine that today? Doesn't make

Jeff Cronenweth 26:07
I still do maybe one or two a year? Yeah. I love them. But, you know, I don't go out and seek it out. But they come one or two a year. And so it's like the last couple have been the Taylor Swift, Terry, Maroon Five, and they always have a fair amount of money to do it. Right. Right. Now, what changed? What changed a few years ago, is they figured out how to monetize the videos, you think again, and and the videos and kids by downloads of the music videos. So the videos have, not only are they presenting the song, but they buy them to watch over and over again. And so, you know, it'll never be what it was, of course, but, you know, it could come back to some degree where where you have decent budgets to, to make, to make videos that make statements and really promote an artist.

Alex Ferrari 26:59
Yeah, because now I mean, you throw up, you throw it up on YouTube, and you just monetize it on YouTube and you got a billion views, that's a it's a pretty nice chunk of change that's gonna come into your pocket or to the studio or the the labels pocket, but whoever's paying, so there is way there are ways still now where some of these artists even just naming every time they've dropped a video, it's 100 200 500 million, billion, you know, watches. So it can it can't happen but, but like the the, I mean, nobody names like second third tier X, having half a million dollars, those days are gone. Those days are definitely gone. Now. Speaking of music videos, you also worked with another, you know Trailblazer with Mark Romanek, who I'm also a huge fan of and his work with him. What is what is the how you also shot his film, one hour photo, which I absolutely adored with, with the late great Robin Williams, how did you approach that film? Because the look of it is so Oh, God, it just feels like there's that that fluorescent light coming down on you. And you just feel off? Watching it? How did you approach that creatively with him?

Jeff Cronenweth 28:11
It was a, it was a baby movie, in in comparison to fight club, budget wise, you know? Sure. And so there was certain strategies and things that you had to do that because you had to be financially responsible, and you had limited resources. But the wonderful thing about that movie for me, and what what I loved about it is it had three worlds that he lived in, it had the store, which was his safe place, his ethereal place where he was God, and he could view these people's lives and make judgments and then react. And then there was their house, the family he was obsessed with, which is very warm and loving. And at least on the surface as we as we find out later. And then his his cold and industrial apartment that he lives in that was void of personality, except for the wall of other people's likes that he made, right. And so that gave me three distinct worlds to light differently, you know, within that budget, and that was really fun to do. And the thing that I love the most is, you know, you're going to be in a store. And Mark really wanted it to feel overlap in the sense that it's coming from the top and it's a you know, big, big big box store. And so I couldn't I couldn't I I'm not necessarily a fan of top light, just don't like what it does in general to people's faces, but we created these fixtures that you could look at and see a little bit of light, but they weren't they didn't really have an impact coming down, but they shot up and we painted the ceiling white, and so it all was bounced softlight off the ceiling, the gate kind of ethereal glow in there. And then you go back and you can analyze it. And that's like, that's his heaven. And that's his world. And this is this and the lights coming down from there. But it was really, this is this beautiful, I mean, that all fit into the story. But it was this beautiful, soft light. So you took this really industrial building and made it something that was prettier, but still had the personality that Mark wanted reflected and, you know, visually to match the story. And so that was, you know, we bought all these old fixtures in from the salvage company and then cut holes in them and put them up and, and made those work and then shot in that store. You know, what was rather trying? Was, we shot in there for the first two weeks, I think, or three weeks, right? And so you want to you know, it's okay, to have to have, you want a balance to the movie, you want up and downs, light and dark shadows and things that are that you can't see. And going to dailies for the first like 16 days, all that footage was in that store. And it was all this white, low contrast thing. I was losing my mind. I'm like, What am I shooting this is like, there's nothing to balance again. But then of course, once we got out, we started getting into the other worlds and I was able to manipulate contrast and light and have direction now as opposed to top and stuff. It really like it really balanced out the movie, and it has a really cool look for it. And I definitely serve the story.

Alex Ferrari 31:36
No, you just brought something to my to my mind when you said contrast. I mean a movie like Fight Club, and seven that you did second unit. But on Fight Club. The contrast is so big. I mean, it's just beautiful. And that was kind of like a telltale Fincher ask thing. He loves blacks. He loves to go deep into the blacks. How much of that was? Was that all in camera? And then you tweaked it a little bit in the lab? Because in 99 Did they the I wasn't di hadn't come out yet. Oh, Brother Where Art then come out. Yeah, right. Right. That was lab. So that was shot that was in camera and lab work that got that insanely crisp and just pristine look, right?

Jeff Cronenweth 32:19
Yeah, yeah. Then that was straight up. There was no cross processing or any of the things that they had done on seven. Right, it was straight up. So the way we shot it, it's terrifying.

Alex Ferrari 32:31
Oh, yeah. Because you're on the edge. And that's the thing. Yeah. When you work with David, I'm assuming you're always on the edge. On a lot of things. I mean, the same thing with a girl with a dragon tattoo and social network.

Jeff Cronenweth 32:42
I'll tell you a little story. Yeah, but don't, don't lose your train of thought. It was my first feature as the as the main DP, right. So it was a big,

Alex Ferrari 32:51
Not a bad one to start with

Jeff Cronenweth 32:52
Not a bad one. I put more pressure on myself then then David or the studio did, because I was so I didn't want to fail him, I had so much respect for him that I didn't want to be the one loose like, you know, the bolt in the entire ship. So we were shooting a scene of Ed Norton with insomnia, laying in bed wide awake, overhead shot. And we had had the sheets tea stained. In other words, they took the white some of the bright white off the sheets. But it wasn't, it wasn't the level we wanted it to. And so we were really struggling with, like, making it feel like nighttime, being dark enough, still seeing him but not having these glowing white sheets. And he kept going. It's too bright. I'm like, David, it's not to write anymore. It's we're getting really close to not going to be an image there. He's like, it's two rights to write. And we shot it and it was too dark. And I was like, I was already like, oh, okay, that's it. Well, when they come looking for the guy to blame all I'm done, and I'm out of here and all that. And the next day is like, Well, you're right, we push too hard, we'll shoot it again tomorrow. And, and he looked at me, he goes, Listen, if we're not making mistakes every once in a while, then we're not pushing boundaries, we were in a safe zone that nobody wants to be in and we're not that's not what we're here to do. We're here to change things and push things and break boundaries and, and not repeat ourselves. And so it's only money. It's a big movie, we've scheduled time for things that don't work out and we'll shoot it again another day. And that was that kind of has served me to this day because you put it in perspective. You know, if you're doing something where it doesn't have a lot of money and you're risking losing a scene, that that's being irresponsible, but if you're pushing the boundaries and you're taking advantage of everything that you have and you and you are going for it it's okay to make that mistake now and then

Alex Ferrari 34:48
No question I mean because I mean looking at fightclub You know, I saw it in the theater and then seeing it on Blu ray and 4k and all that kind of stuff. Maybe you are on the edge because a lot of people don't understand like they look I'm like, Oh, they just fixed that in the computer. I'm like, no, no, this is old school. This is lab work. And like, craft, you know, because now you could choose something down the middle and gain a really crisp and crush the blacks and all that stuff in di much easier than you could back back then. So you actually were You were playing with stops? You were like, Am I Am I too far gone. Because you can only push a pole in the lab so much before the image is gone, and you don't have anything?

Jeff Cronenweth 35:32
Well, the thing that everybody has to appreciate is, in those days, you, when you went to the lab, when you're when you're color correcting a movie, you had red, green, and blue, and you had light and dark. That's it. No contrast, no other color

Alex Ferrari 35:47
No power windows, no power windows,

Jeff Cronenweth 35:49
And no stopping it, you know, there's a footage counter at the bottom of the screen. And you're sitting in there with you know, a guy that's been working in the lab for 40 years, he's got a piece of paper and a pencil, and you're going, okay 524, it's two points to green and 1.2 bright, and he writes it down and two other shots go by. And now you got to watch it over again and go, okay, and you have to keep doing this and keep doing this and keep doing this, you know, it's not like, stop, look at it. Bring up the shot before it. Let's look at those side by side do that. Yeah, let's add contrast, let's have 1000 shades of pink that we can now add or take away. Let's do this, and this and this. So it's a different world. Now, in all fairness, audiences are far more mature or educated than they were then than they were eight years ago. And so the expectations and the critical eye is all that much stronger. So I kind of feel like the technologies kept up with the audiences and the audiences expect a certain amount. And this technology affords us to go that much more in that direction. You know, it's really hard to to get away with something rudimentary when kids grew up watching Game of Thrones.

Alex Ferrari 37:04
Right, like you've watched it, that's a TV show, what TV shows that we have different strokes.

Jeff Cronenweth 37:11
Hill Street Blues isn't, you know, they were really Three's Company.

Alex Ferrari 37:15
Right! Like we were raised in television in the 80s. And you still Game of Thrones? Like are you kidding? So yeah, now, now that everyone's expecting so much more. So the game has, you have to take your game up to that to that level,

Jeff Cronenweth 37:31
You can stop a frame on your computer and analyze it. You know, shots have to match because they can go back and forth and look where before there was reciprocity, which is our human brain processing the image going by that you know, you think you match that to that shot, but God forbid you ever put them side by side? I bet they're, you know, the master. I bet Godfather doesn't have as many shots that are perfect as we all think it does.

Alex Ferrari 37:54
Oh my god. I mean, he did that the prince of darkness. Mr. Willis. I mean,

Jeff Cronenweth 37:58
No, no disrespect. I'm just saying like they didn't

Alex Ferrari 38:00
No I mean, I mean that in a good way. I mean, in a good way, like keep talking about pushing

Jeff Cronenweth 38:04
Did with that. Jesus. Unbelievable.

Alex Ferrari 38:08
Oh my God, you look at godfather to you just like how did you have the balls to expose our Pachino on a Francis for a couple of movie on the sequel? The Godfather? That frickin low like you could barely see him and the mastery to get to that. I mean, he's literally a cough away from it not being exposed. It was it's just it's mashed. It's a masterwork. It's a it's a Master,

Jeff Cronenweth 38:35
I tell you what's missing from that, that that that was so great about it, my father and all and Conrad and all of them did it is they shot to a degree where there was no turning back. So that's what the movie is going to look like. arbitrator coming in, hey, you know what that's too too bright or too dark, or I need to open it up. You can open it up, it's it's gonna go milky, and it's gonna look really bad. So you have to live with what they did you know. And that's the drawback from the technology today is, you know, I can color correct a movie for three weeks. And when I walk away, there's nothing stopping someone from going in and dialing a knob. And all of a sudden, that's not what I thought it was. Now, most studios don't do that. But I've had occasions where I've left and people have made changes, which is a problem.

Alex Ferrari 39:21
Yeah, and exactly. There's when I was a colorist for 15 years, so I know, oh, I know, my friend. Listen, I, I sit there and I always try to work with the DP and the DP. You'd be in the room. But then when he left the producer who's paying me he's like, Okay, I need you to open this up a little bit more. It's just a little too dark. I'm like, Oh, God, what do I do? Like you're like, This is the dude that's paying me like, What do I What do I do? So there is there's this weird place but you're absolutely right. Nowadays you as as as the DP you don't have nearly the control that you did back then like when when your dad shot Blade Runner it was what it was, like they weren't going to tweak it.

Jeff Cronenweth 39:58
That's it. Like, you got what you got?

Alex Ferrari 40:01
So So going back, you know, we were talking about, you know, working on other films like social network and grow with the Dragon Tattoo. Social Network is interesting because first of all is is a masterwork man. Seriously, it is. so beautifully shot and you were using a red one.

Jeff Cronenweth 40:21
Red one, but we had the mysterium X chip, which was the new chip, you know, right. He had a SATA burghead taught Fincher into checking out red he had used among che, right? Yeah. And, and we were David and I were looking at, you know, we went through testing all the different cameras and stuff. And read was, you know, Soderbergh says, Let's try these new cameras. Try this new sensor, I think you'll love it. And we went and met Jim Dennard and Jared land, you know, they were down in Orange County at that time. And so we went down there and looked at the cameras and the footage, and then the new set, sir, and it was absolutely beautiful. And then they started asking what we want to change on those cameras, or what we need on this movie that isn't available. And we had all those rowing scenes, you know, on those years. What are they called mocker boats, I think there's something like they're super fragile, lightweight, and you can't overload them, you know, they're not met Matt to carry anything other than the guys rowing and stuff. And so they made us a carbon fiber camera body that weighed like, six pounds, red red one with a chip. And they made this and they made that and it started this relationship that Fincher and I have enjoyed, you know, since that film, were on social network. That was a that was the mystery max on Dragon Tattoo. That was the epic Sure. All prototypes, like you know, wires hanging out and open backs but Gone Girl was the dragon. I think so. Yeah. And so on, you know, and then he had the Xenomorph on Mindhunter, which was was meant to be handheld. But they ended up not not utilizing that style. But those were those ergonomic cameras that kind of looked like a little bit like Alien.

Alex Ferrari 42:21
I saw that. Yeah, they made that special for him. They call that

Jeff Cronenweth 42:24
Yeah, and everything was like the motors that drive the lenses you had to pick you know, is meant for like a glass. So the like Similac C's all have the same size. And so the motors were attached and no cables and all all these kind of nuances that over the years have evolved. And now you know, last year they did manque and that was monochrome which he had asked for originally for commercial

Alex Ferrari 42:50
It was I didn't he did the Justin Timberlake music video with that too.

Jeff Cronenweth 42:53
Before that he did. He did I know he did a black and white oh god what's it for? You did one with Rooney Mara. That was for some free?

Alex Ferrari 43:04
Oh yeah. I remember that. Yeah, that that

Jeff Cronenweth 43:09
Even before that there was something and then I had shot I did these Levi spots with them that are you know, all with the monochrome. And so he got they made Rangers which was the newest sensor but made the monochrome for Mank. And, and now

Alex Ferrari 43:28
So as a cinematographer, this is heaven you basically go into the toy shop and you go out with like this, I would like that, can you make this for me and they literally custom build the need for your projects

Jeff Cronenweth 43:41
Extremely supportive and helpful. And so yeah, and so i i The last film that I shot, it was on the Ranger but I use the Aerie DNA glass and I you know they tell me that I'm the first person to do that for the day because they had tried to keep it mostly restricted to using with the Aerie cameras and stuff, but then they open the doors a little bit and so I shot being the Ricardos with the 70 mil DNA primes that you know like from the Joker and different things and then the Red Ranger with the full sensor AK so

Alex Ferrari 44:19
I want to talk well I want to talk about the Ricardos because ya know it's it's it's stunning. On social network. There's two shots I have to ask you about the one is if you can and they're they're pretty they're pretty well known shot so I'm sure you can get them on the on the is it was it in? I'm thinking is the overhead shot on top of the buildings is that social network or am I confusing that with Matt

Jeff Cronenweth 44:48
Is with Jesse Eisenberg running through the heart.

Alex Ferrari 44:51
Yeah, and it's just like stays there and that the camera fought like it's attached to him almost it looks like and how the hell do you do that?

Jeff Cronenweth 45:00
That was a solution to the problem that Harvard generally doesn't allow you to shoot movies on their campuses, especially a movie that's doesn't put them in great light, because the infighting between all the students and then of course, the chancellor or the chairman. At So, we had to figure out a way that we could shoot a shot without moving the camera, but we wanted to do a pan and scan within the camera, because we had to leave the cameras locked off so that we could shoot when the sky changed, we could get the depth of the campus, we could get all the detail of the buildings in the background. And then we would tie all that together into a move. And so we put three cameras up there Frame to Frame to Frame and let Jesse Jesse run it, it was the only it's like the only building in Cambridge that's not part owned by the university. So we picked that point in the corner and had him run by he ran by the oldest arch going into the campus, which is you know, if you know anything about Harvard is a famous archway that goes into the campus. And it's pitch black, you know, there's like, I changed like I, I had the city fix all the streetlights on both both streets that you see. And then I put light bulbs on the back of the poles that you couldn't see that made down like the he could run in and out of these pools of light. And then we had this dilemma of not like the archway needed to be backlit for us to see it when he runs by it. And so we kept coming up with scenarios like I was like, let's rent like a fake power truck, go on campus, like we're fixing something and just use the bright headlights and stuff and a little thing on and, and no one will bother us because they'll think that, you know, you're fixing something with the power company. Fincher came up with this idea of making a battery cart light that was all self contained, and hiring a mind. And so the mind would take the cart onto campus behind the RTA turn on the light, and then start mining. The idea is that anybody would come around with think that he's lying to himself, they'd watch for 10 minutes, even if the cops came, he would do his whole thing where he's like, I can't hear you. And, and so we did that. Got the shot, we you know, we lit the archway from on campus with a mind and then tiled that shot, to get him to run through.

Alex Ferrari 47:34
So you so so basically, you I don't like to use the word stole the shot, but you stole the shot. Essentially,

Jeff Cronenweth 47:41
You stole the light source, light source,

Alex Ferrari 47:45
Which is amazing that a film, and the people involved with the film like social network would need to pull those kinds of indie moves to get the shot. But that's but that's the reality of the world.

Jeff Cronenweth 47:58
That's the way it works. You know, that's the great thing about film school is you're always borrowing and stealing and trying to whatever you can, you know, into it. And honestly, that kind of happens on commercials and music videos and everything. You have to kind of like go out and be aggressive to make sure you you get everything that you all the parts that you need to make the story.

Alex Ferrari 48:20
That's amazing. Now the other shot that I love, and it's is the rowing, the rowing sequence, the one with Trent's amazing score. What is the technique to make everything look so small? I know there's it's a photographic technique, but can you explain it to the audience how you got that shot? Because when I saw it, I was just like, wow, that's I haven't seen this in a film before.

Jeff Cronenweth 48:43
Yeah, two things. One, we were only given like an hour and a half to shoot in the area where the regard actually happens. And so we had to shoot some finish line stuff, and this and that, and then we had to get out of there. And so we were up river more from that, and it didn't look exactly the same. And so to avoid any of the matching issues, the idea of this shallow depth of field, super dramatic. And we had seen it on YouTube, where they done like shipyards, miniatures, and you see it moving, you're like, is that a model? Or is that real? It's gorgeous. It's just a matter of lenzing and shallow depth of field and perspective. And so we did that and it solved a lot of problems for us and and super energetic in the in the sense that it adds tension and kind of confusion to this race. So you don't know who's winning when or where and the energy keeps up. And I love the notion of locking the focus and letting the guys row in and out because, you know, on those boats, the boat slides underneath the guy kind of the guy stays and then the boat slides and then he catches up in a slot again. And so that that just was so dramatic to me really what

Alex Ferrari 50:05
It was. So basically, it was a workaround to, to solve a problem. It was not as much of a creative decision, but then it turned into a creative decision and how you worked with it.

Jeff Cronenweth 50:15
Yeah, I mean, we might have done it anyways. Because it was such a cool effect. We talked about it before we did those scenes, but then it became assault as well.

Alex Ferrari 50:24
That's, that's, that's amazing. Now, you've been you've been, you know, you've obviously been in the business for a long time, you've been around a lot of different cinematographers, young cinematographers, what are some of the biggest mistakes you see young DPS make, when they first come out.

Jeff Cronenweth 50:40
I'm not trusting their first thought to an image or problem being talked out of it. letting fear debilitate you, as opposed to embracing it so that you can stay on edge and fresh and push boundaries, you know, I think, I think, God, I've seen some people so hungry to get that opportunity, and so focused on films that they cherished, they tried to emulate them on their first time out. And that's a risky business, because you don't have the kind of support on set to back up those choices if they don't work out. And if you take too long and you don't accomplish your day's work, then all of a sudden, you know, you're you're sprinting through stuff and making mistakes and dropping shots. And, and you've not only have you not achieved your goal, you've you've kind of like undermined yourself. And so I think you have to keep perspective of of the task at hand and know your audience in the sense of like, How much money do you have? How much time do I have? How much sport am I going to get? And sometimes you want to paint with old brushes, sometimes you want to paint with a big fat brush, because that's the way to get through that.

Alex Ferrari 52:07
Right. And so it's the equivalent of me trying to go on shoot fight a scene from Fight Club with, you know, $5,000, and it's six hours for a scene that took you maybe two or three days and you had a much bigger support staff than I would.

Jeff Cronenweth 52:21
That's yeah, exactly. So

Alex Ferrari 52:23
And that is a mistake. Yeah. I can imagine that a lot of them with our trim, like I'm gonna go shoot like Blade Runner. I'm like, Well, he was a bigger budget.

Jeff Cronenweth 52:32
When I was an assistant, I saw guys light for two hours and have like, very specific like, after Husted here after I see him here, or that little Tiguan, but it looked great. The actor comes in as I'm not going to that mark. I'm going here and here. And now it's either a redo for another two hours, or they're dark and not in the light. Or no, you know, it, that's all part of that relationship thing to like, if you once there's a trust and a relationship with the with the cast, and then everybody knows that everyone's on the same team, then we all help each other out. But when someone feels like they're being manipulated, then that's kind of you know, that can be problematic for sure.

Alex Ferrari 53:14
Now, let's talk about your newest film being the Ricardos which I had the pleasure of watching that I absolutely loved it. I think it's one of the best films of the year is I mean, beautifully lit and when I was watching I'm like, Oh my God, these guys must had so much fun shooting it because you're like, you know, it's Lucy and Desi and you know, it's it's obviously Aaron Sorkin directing in wrote this remarkable script. And, you know, you were we were kind of talking about beforehand, the tightness of the script and how tight you know, Aaron writes his scripts. What was it like working with Aaron Sorkin on an Aaron Sorkin script? And playing in this you know, the golden age of television?

Jeff Cronenweth 53:57
Yeah, no, it's fantastic. I it's probably as much fun as I've ever had on the set and I think everybody that was involved in it would tell you that not not because it was happy go lucky joking around just because it was a joy every day to shoot the material to shoot Javier and, and Nicole and JK, you know, and actually the entire cast the sets were beautiful. The atmosphere is very supportive. And it just it just was the the chemistry was so good amongst all the departments and everybody cuz I think we all knew how good the script was. And and it's something that we all have, you know, I don't care where you're from there's everybody has a little piece of I Love Lucy and them. My girlfriend is me is and has been in the country for about 15 years now. And she knows every episode, you know from from Vietnam, Trent so yeah, so you know, it's it's, it has a little something for everybody. And then it's a period piece and it's the 50s And, and, and so it was very, very exciting. I had, you know, worked with Aaron in a different capacity on social network, right, wrote, he wrote that script. And funny enough, the last shot of that movie, I think Fincher wanted to avoid the emotional goodbyes. And I told Aaron to shoot the last shot, which was an insert of a letter coming underneath the door. So of course, I'm still the DP, we I stuff. So that was our first director, DP relationship was that insert on social network. And then, you know, he, he's, he's, his dialogue is so amazing, and his tempo. So exciting. And like I said earlier, he, he makes a complete story, it's tight. And within that, it just opens the door for creativity for all of us to contribute. And, and he's very open minded about it. And he's very, like, embellished as us to bring more to it. And for me, you know, he had done a couple movies as a director before, including, you know, Fagin shot Chicago seven got nominated last year for it. And that, but that movie was like structured in it, you know, is half the movie takes place in a courtroom, which is so, so difficult. And So Aaron, you know, being a guy that wants to progress wanted me to bring some of like the light choices and styles and stuff that Fincher and I had had used over the past. Now, of course, this is different kind of movie. And so you have to adjust your adjust your, your kind of style to whatever the subject matter of the story is that you're telling, but it did open the door for me to really play a lot and to you know, capture the era capture the romance and the magic. And then I have to, to play with black and white, I got to play with flashbacks, like in the 40s which I I tipped my hat to hurl and some of the Mount in my grandfather to the starlight kind of lights and I lights that came through, like barter. And so that was really fun. And, and then, you know, staying true to the era, but but modernizing it a little bit. You know, it's it's, it's, it's one of those dilemmas that you you don't want to be a parrot parody of an era. You want to bring that era to what it is. But you also have a responsibility to entertain a modern audience, right. So you know, if you're doing a picture in 1910, you wouldn't use glass from 1910. They only used glass from 1910 because they had to they didn't have 1980s or 2020 glass, right. So I felt like in exploring some of the choices and cameras and lenses and light sources and all that, that we would stay true as much as we could. But then I would, I would bring it to the future a little bit. You know, like, for example, the black and white footage of the television show I Love Lucy, you know, a DP named Karl Freund photographed I Love Lucy. He was a feature guy. He was an inventor. He was known throughout the industry as a really like a technical technological wizard and a master someone Darfur he won an Oscar in 1937. He invented the incident meter, which read reads the, you know, direct light spot meter that, you know, reflected light. And so Desi and Lucy knew this. And so they asked him to shoot this TV show with that with the idea of trying to solve this dilemma of shooting a three camera show, but shooting it as if it were a live show, but shooting on film, and shooting it in front of a live audience. So all things that had not been done before. You know, in that time, or that era, they you know, if you lived in New York, you could watch a show live. If you didn't live in New York, then they were they filmed a TV monitor. Right, right, yeah. And then sent that around and then rebroadcast it. So the quality went way down. And Desi and Lucy didn't want they didn't want to work on the East Coast, they wanted to live on the West Coast. And two, they didn't want they wanted everybody to see the same image quality at the same time. So they decided to shoot on film, which was an extra cost, which they absorbed, which they also got the rights to after it aired the first time, which was kind of the dawning of syndication, right. So so the idea was to light something from overhead light, something that create a lighting scenario that where you wouldn't have to move lights between setups, that you could move fast and that you didn't block the audience from being able to see the talent and the idea behind that was that Ricky thought that our Desi thought that Lucy performed better in front of a live audience and the rest of the cast did as well. When they interacted, so those things were were the kind of the tasks that girlfriend was given. And then when he solved it all, you know, it was such a hit show and technological kind of accomplishment that people would come from all over the world to watch them do this and then more or less, that's what uh, you know, the three camera sitcoms became forever after that, you know, to this day to this day to this day they had headphones they had a wide shot to close ups they had they talk to each other the super script supervisor Congo kind of regulated the the cameras, you know, and so and then and then Desi you know, he they would cut it take a week to cut. And he he didn't understand why you had to watch just one camera one reel on a movie Ola. And so he asked me Viola to make one where he could run all three reel so he could see all three images at the same time and know where the cuts were based on the tempo and performance as in so now you know, you do split screens, or you have seven monitors, you have whatever it is, but he had them build a movie Oh, where you could run all three cameras at the same time. And so there was a lot of innovation going on. On that set

Alex Ferrari 1:01:12
That show Yeah, people don't realize it. They just look at us like oh, it's a sitcom I'm like, but that's it kind of changed so much about everything on a technological sense on the story sense with her being pregnant for the first time. They they still never said the word pregnant but you know that there was a pregnant woman on a national television was like a thing, you know, and even having Desi as a Cuban lead. Well, that was a biggie. I'm Cuban. So you know, I was Desi was one of the only Cuban people I knew that were in the business. Or Latinos in general. When I was growing up, and I just every every Cuban on the planet knows who Desi Arnaz. It's like he's a patron saint of American Cubans. But it was such a revolutionary and it must have just been such a ball to go back in there and play you were playing. It just seemed when I was watching the movie. I was watching it and it seemed like everybody was playing and having a good time from from the performances, which all four of the leads, all of all should get nominated. But there's no question about it because they were so good. Javier nailed Nicola JK, and the actress who plays ETHEL. Nina, Nina. Oh my god, I love her and Goliath. She's wonderful and Goliath. So when I saw her pop up there, I was like, she held her home.

Jeff Cronenweth 1:02:34
Or even Jay Karen Goliath together, right?

Alex Ferrari 1:02:37
Yeah, JK. No, it was Billy Bob. Billy Bob's in July.

Jeff Cronenweth 1:02:41
But also. JK has a part in it. Because right here, and I think

Alex Ferrari 1:02:47
That's right. They weren't Yeah. So. And she held her own with these. I mean, those three are

Jeff Cronenweth 1:02:52
Oh, yeah, she, she did, she does, I'm a huge fan of those. And then it's a funny thing, because you have a built in audience per se, because everybody holds that show close to their chest. But within that, and because of that, everybody is very critical about how it's been done and who represents who. And so I have so much admiration for Nicole to put herself in that position and take that risk. Because there was a lot of animosity before it ever, you know, long before we ever started shooting when they announced who was being cast in what parts and whatnot. And I'm really, really pleased to see as people take in that movie. More and more people are just like, blown away by how good she is in it. How much of Lucile character she embraces and the true spirit of her. And that's yeah, she's gonna get nominated.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:51
There's no There's no question she's gonna get nominated. She almost like she was channeling Lucy. Yeah, it's what

Jeff Cronenweth 1:03:57
That's what Lucy's daughter said. Wow, she was Lucie. arnaz was extremely, extremely happy and moved to tears when she finally watched the final version.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:08
Oh, God, I can I can only imagine. Yeah, and Javier was just remarkable. And, I mean, I mean, that the lighting of the film, I remember the one shot that uh, it's not a spoiler, but there's a scene where Lucy calls everybody in to the studio late at night. That that scene, and when that door opens, and it's raining outside and light shafts come in. I'm like, Oh, they had fun shooting that.

Jeff Cronenweth 1:04:34
I couldn't wait to do that. From the time I read that book. I had that in the back of my mind. And it's so fun when it comes to fruition, you know? Yeah. You're waiting. You're like, okay, tonight's the night.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:44
It's funny, because sometimes I can watch this. I can watch a movie. I'll go that's the that's the that's the one. That's the shot that got the DVD to do what to get on this project.

Jeff Cronenweth 1:04:55
You're still right

Alex Ferrari 1:04:56
Isn't it true that like someone you read a script, you're like, oh, Okay, I'm gonna I mean, unless obviously, it's just like with David or someone you've worked with before, but if you're working with them for the first time, you look at the scripting like what's in this? Can I, first of all, can I tell the story? But what's in it for me? What, Where's My Challenge? Where can I have some fun is that basically like, Oh, I haven't done that before.

Jeff Cronenweth 1:05:16
It's the good and bad, like, you're like, Oh, this is gonna be amazing, like, and then you get to like, oh my god, a boat in the middle of the lake at night? How am I going to do that? So you know, you go back and forth the whole time, and then you settle down, and then you start to analyze it and solve all the problems and, and then, you know, make the story work. And

Alex Ferrari 1:05:32
Being at being a cinematographer is basically solving problems 24/7 all the time. Like you're, there's things that are coming up constantly, that you have no understanding of like, okay, alright, give me a second here. Let's figure this out here. Let's figure it out that they're in the Oh, the actor doesn't want to stand there. Okay, so let's do this. It's like it's constant with you. It's constant, like on the set?

Jeff Cronenweth 1:05:56
I feel. Yeah, I think I think it is, but it's also the same for the director. Yeah. Like, it doesn't matter who you are, how much money you have, or how many days you have to shoot. problems happen, you know. Rather, weather changes, things break. Someone doesn't come out in time, something's wrong with something else. And whoever makes the best creative compromises at that moment wins, you know. So that's what these masters and they solve the problems. You because you haven't, you don't have a choice,

Alex Ferrari 1:06:33
Right! You got to go through because there's like you watch, watch,

Jeff Cronenweth 1:06:37
Watch storming of Normandy and Saving Private Ryan. And you know, they shot there for a week, two weeks, obviously, the weather is gonna change every single day. And that's supposed to take place in a few hours, and it's sunny, and then it's cloudy. And then it's this and then it's that but there was enough smoke and enough action, and it's color corrected so beautifully. And it's like you're caught in the moment of the energy and another, you know, it doesn't matter.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:00
Yeah. And there's one other film that you did with Sacha Gervasi Hitchcock, Sasha, Sasha is a good friend. And he's, we've talked a lot about, I've talked a lot a lot with him about Hitchcock, and how he did it, how fun was it to go back and like, tread over Hitchcock's like, walk the path of Hitchcock walk sometimes, like recreating some of those scenes, man,

Jeff Cronenweth 1:07:27
Very exciting, you know, again, it's, it's not so different than then being the Ricardos. Right? Good. Go down one of the paths of your idols, and you get to capture the great Anthony Hopkins playing, playing Hitchcock and Helen Mirren playing his wife, and you know, you're so familiar with all of his movies, you know, all the shots. It's a little bit like being put back in that place. And so it's, it's a, it's like a little kid going to Disneyland for the first time. But it's a it's the magical movie worlds that we get to go visit, you know. And so it was really, really fun to shoot that pay homage to, and then try to, you know, Hitchcock was always an innovator. And he was always pushing boundaries. And he was doing the single take movies, and he was using this, he was using that. And we had this debate at the beginning of the movie about whether we should shoot it on film, or whether we should shoot it digitally. And ultimately, you know, it's like, is it sacrilegious to shoot a Hitchcock movie digitally, and ultimately, it became down a financial problem and the producers realize the cost savings and pushed us towards a digital world. But when you go back and you think about it, like if Hitchcock was around today, he would be the first guy using the newest technology so in a way you know, I didn't have that same kind of like, feel like I down the world by not shooting it on film.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:55
No, I don't think I don't think Hitchcock would be dying on the mantle there on the on the top of the hill going film forever. Like he's not that he had been like when he took he would have grabbed an iPhone and shot. Oh, could you imagine him? Like I always wonder is like what would Kubrick to today oh my god what would what would Stanley do with today's technology? Oh god the stuff that they you know the Masters if you would have given these the tools to those masters? What would have happened now

Jeff Cronenweth 1:09:23
Look how good the stories were that they told already.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:26
They were they and in a time when you really needed to know your stuff like like when you shot Fight Club and when you shot when you shot film. You needed to know how to expose properly how did you need it, there's so much more knowledge you need as a cinematographer. Whereas in the digital world, you you have a lot more leeway. There is more leeway. So I'm gonna ask you a few questions as my guest What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Jeff Cronenweth 1:09:55
Watch a lot of movies, study directors and shoot as much as you possibly can.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:01
What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Jeff Cronenweth 1:10:09
That's a good question. I would I just think, you know, I kind of mentioned it earlier is to embrace your fears and utilize that, you know, because I look, I've done a lot of a lot of phones, but when you walk on that, to that elephant stage door the first time or even every day, that morning, or even before that, when you're driving up on a street, and there's you go past 22 trucks before you get to the they drop you off in front of the set, you start, you know, the insulation, and you're like, oh my god, this is the day that I'm gonna get discovered that I don't know what I'm doing. And, and you walk through that stage door, or into that set or onto that house, and you look around, it's all overwhelming, and people are coming up, like, whatever, you know, 1000 questions start happening, and you just gotta sit in process and you watch the scene, you block it out, you know, obviously, you've been there before and you have a plan and stuff, but utilizing it, making it come together. You got to trust yourself. And and know that it'll come and you'll solve the problems and, and embrace all that all that insecurity you know, don't let it get the best of you because that's when you make mistakes or in questioning yourself. And again, I said that before is like, go with what you thought the first time that's usually the right choice, whatever your guts telling you, you know, and if it doesn't feel right, you'll you'll realize it by first time you're watching the monitor and looking through the eyepiece and go, you know, I got something's not working out here. I got it. Change this and stuff.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:40
And three of your favorite films of all time.

Jeff Cronenweth 1:11:43
A Blade Runner, a godfather stuck between like No Country for Old Man or Shawshank?

Alex Ferrari 1:11:57
Oh, yeah. Nice. All good, all good choices. And one last question specifically to you. Was there a lesson? Or what was the biggest lesson you took away from your father when it comes to lighting and being a cinematographer?

Jeff Cronenweth 1:12:13
It's not what you liked. It's what you don't like that has the most impact.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:17
That's, that's great advice. Great, great advice. And where can people watch being the being the Ricardos? And when?

Jeff Cronenweth 1:12:26
I remember 10th and theaters, you know, I, I kind of looked around and see where it was going to be playing. So I think it's a limited release. And then on December 21, it's on Amazon.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:38
That's amazing. Jeff, man, thank you so much for being on the show, bro. I really appreciate it. I can geek out a little bit more with you, I'm sure. But I appreciate your time, my friend. Thank you again for being on the show and continued success and please keep making movies my friend.

Jeff Cronenweth 1:12:53
Oh, well. Thanks, Alex.

LINKS

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Sean Baker’s iPhone Short Film: Snowbird

Between making remarkable features writer/director Sean Baker directs commercial and short films. Back in 2016 Sean directed a fashion short film called Snowbird. It was shot entirely on an iPhone for Kenzo SS16 starring supermodel Abbey Lee, with music by Jack and Kitty Norton.

A little about Sean Baker:

Sean Baker is a graduate of NYU’s Tisch School of the Arts. He is an award-winning writer/director/producer known for Take Out (2004), Prince of Broadway (2008), Starlet (2012), Tangerine(2015), and The Florida Project (2017). Sean’s latest feature, Red Rocket, premiered at Cannes on July 14, 2021. Red Rocket was acquired by A24 for theatrical and home entertainment release.

Baker is also the co-creator of the long-running comedy show Greg the Bunny (2005) which had incarnations on IFC TV, FOX and MTV Warren the Ape (2010).

Listen to his exclusive interview with IFH below.

SHORTCODE - SHORTS

Want to watch more short films by legendary filmmakers?

Our collection has short films by Martin Scorsese, Quentin Tarantino, the Coen Brothers, Chris Nolan, Tim Burton, Steven Spielberg & more.

Steven Spielberg’s Micro-Budget Short Film: Amblin

Amblin’ is a short film made in 1968. It is the first completed film shot by Steven Spielberg on 35mm. The film is a short love story set during the hippie era of the late 1960s about a young man and woman who meet in the desert, attempt to hitchhike, become friends, then lovers, make their way to a beach, and part ways. It later became the namesake for Spielberg’s production company, Amblin Entertainment.

A young man carrying a closely guarded guitar case meets a free-spirited young woman while hitchhiking across the Mojave Desert, she befriends him, then he hauls both of their luggage, they play an olive pit spitting game, she shares a cannabis joint, he becomes her lover, and they accept various rides, en route to a Pacific coast beach. At the beach, the man runs, fully clothed, into the surf, and splashes about, while the woman with daisies in her hair, hesitatingly opens his guitar case and lays out its contents: a tie, wingtip shoes, Thrifty Drugs mouthwash, a paperback of Arthur C. Clarke’s The City and the Stars, a white shirt, Right Guard spray deodorant, a suit, a roll of toilet paper, white crew socks, Phillips’ Milk of Magnesia, and toothpaste. The woman smiles in bemusement, perhaps sensing that her companion was not the free-spirit that she assumed that he was. She frowns in sad disappointment and climbs back up the beach stairs without him. – Wikipedia

There is no spoken dialogue in the film aside from the lyrics to the opening and closing theme song. There is an ambient soundtrack featuring bird sounds, wind, passing car noises, popping noises made by the characters, fire sounds, and laughter, along with instrumental music.

Download Steven Spielberg’s Screenplay Collection in PDF

SHORTCODE - SHORTS

Want to watch more short films by legendary filmmakers?

Our collection has short films by Martin Scorsese, Quentin Tarantino, the Coen Brothers, Chris Nolan, Tim Burton, Steven Spielberg & more.

Top 15 Indie Filmmaking Podcasts (Oscar® and Emmy® Winners)

Indie Filmmaking Podcasts have been so important to me over the past few years. Indie Film Hustle entered into the podcast space in 2015 with the launch of its first original podcast series, The Indie Film Hustle Podcast.

The response to the podcast was so amazing that after a few short months the show became the #1 filmmaking podcast on Apple Podcasts & Spotify, and still maintain that honor. I’m truly humbled and thankful by the response.

The show is only as good as the indie filmmakers who listen to it. Thank you all for the support. I have put together the Top 15 Indie Filmmaking Podcasts from the IFH archives. This list will be updated every few months so keep checking back.

Click here to subscribe on iTunes,  Spotify, Stitcher, or Soundcloud.

1. Oliver Stone

Today on the show I bring you one of the most influential and iconic writer/directors in the history of cinema, three-time Oscar® winner Oliver Stone. Throughout his legendary career, Stone has served as writer, director, and producer on a variety of films, documentaries, and television movies. His films have been nominated for forty two Oscars® and have won twelve.

2. Joe Carnahan

It’s been a hell of a year so far. I’ve been blessed to have had the honor of speaking to some amazing filmmakers and man today’s guest is high on that list. On the show we have writer/director Joe Carnahan. Joe directed his first-feature length film Blood, Guts, Bullets and Octane. which was screened at the 1998 Sundance Film Festival, and won some acclaim.

3. Richard Linklater

We are joined by indie film icon and Oscar® nominated writer/director Richard Linklater. Richard was one of the filmmakers who helped to launch the independent film movement that we know today with his classic 1991 indie film Slacker. As a bonus, we will not only dive into the extraordinary career of Richard Linklater but also that of collaborator and longtime friend writer/director Katie Cokinos, the filmmaker behind the film I Dream Too Much. 

4. Edgar Wright

In the house today is the iconic screenwriter and director, of Scott Pilgrim vs. the World, Shaun of the Dead and Blockbuster hit, Baby DriverEdgar Wright. Edgar has been on the scene making and writing satirical genre films, while also acting for almost thirty years.

He’s here today to talk about his most recent and upcoming film, Last Night In Soho. It is set for release on October 29, 2021, and stars the Queen’s Gambit star, Anya Taylor-Joy. The “Last Night in Soho” title is taken from a song by those Tarantino soundtrack favorites Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick & Tich.

5. Edward Burns

Today’s guest is a writer, director, producer, actor, and indie filmmaking legend, Edward Burns. Many of you might have heard of the Sundance Film Festival-winning film called The Brothers McMullen, his iconic first film that tells the story of three Irish Catholic brothers from Long Island who struggle to deal with love, marriage, and infidelity.

His Cinderella story of making the film, getting into Sundance, and launching his career is the stuff of legend. The Brothers McMullen was sold to Fox Searchlight and went on to make over $10 million at the box office on a $27,000 budget, making it one of the most successful indie films of the decade.

6. Jason Blum

I’m excited to talk to a fellow low-budget independent filmmaker today.

Granted, he does low-budget films on a completely different level than I or most people do at this point. But if we are going to talk about budget filmmaking, it is only fitting to have expert horror film and television producer, Jason Blum of Blumhouse Productions.

That is a testament to his company’s high-quality production. Blumhouse is known for pioneering a new model of studio filmmaking: producing high-quality micro-budget films and provocative television series. They have produced over 150 movies and television series with theatrical grosses amounting to over $4.8 billion.

7. Edward Zwick 

We have been on a major roll lately on the podcast and this episode keep that going in a big way. Our guest on the show today is Oscar® Winning writer, producer, and director Edward Zwick. Edward made his big shift from his childhood passion of theater to filmmaking after working as a PA for Woody Allen in France on the set of Love and Death.

8. John Sayles

John Sayles is one of America’s best known independent filmmakers, receiving critical acclaim for films including Eight Men Out (1988), Lone Star (1996) and Men with Guns (1997). He’s also written screenplays for mainstream films such as Passion Fish (1992), Limbo (1999), The Spiderwick Chronicles (2008) and did a draft of Jurassic Park (1993) for Steven Spielberg.

9. Neill Blomkamp

Ever since I saw District 9 and learned of all the mythical stories behind the short film becoming a feature, I have been a massive fan of today’s guest, Neill Blomkamp. Though Neill is here today to talk about his new sci-fi horror fiction film, Demonic, we also chatted up about his other films that have been successful over the years.

10. David F. Sandberg

So many times we hear those mythical stories of a filmmaker who makes a short film and uploads it to Youtube in hopes of a big time film producer sees to and comes down from Mount Hollywood and offers him or her a deal to turn that short into a studio feature. Today’s guest had that happen to him and then some. On the show is writer/director David F. Sandberg.

David’s story is the “lottery ticket” moment I speak about so often on the show. His journey in Hollywood is remarkable, inspiring and scary all at the same time.  He created a short film called Lights Out. That short was seen by famed filmmaker and producer James Wan (Furious 7, Aquaman, The Conjuring) who offered to produce a feature film version at New Line Cinema.

11. Albert Hughes

I can’t be more excited about the conversation I’m about to share with you. Today on the show we have filmmaker and indie film legend Albert Hughes. Albert, along with his brother Allen began making movies at age 12, but their formal film education began their freshman year of high school when Allen took a TV production class. They soon made the short film The Drive-By and people began to take notice.

After high school Albert began taking classes at LACC Film School: two shorts established the twins’ reputation as innovative filmmakers. Albert and his brother then began directing music videos for a little known rapper named Tupac Shakur. 

These videos lead to directing their breakout hit Menace II Society (1993), which made its world premiere at the Cannes Film Festival and grossed nearly 10 times as much as its $3 million budget.

12. Taylor Hackford

Sitting down with one of the big names in this business this week was a really cool opportunity. I am honored to have on the show today, Oscar® winning director, producer, and screenwriter, Taylor Hackford.

Taylor’s has directed films like An Officer and a Gentleman (1982), White Nights (1985), Proof of Life (2000), Dolores Claiborne (1995), Against All Odds (1984), Parker (2013), the iconic Ray Charles biopic, Ray of 2004, and The Comedian (2016) just to name a few. He also has served as president of the Directors Guild of America and is married to the incomparable acting legend Helen Mirren.

13. Troy Duffy

I’m always looking for success stories in the film business to study and analyze. Edward Burns (The Brothers McMullan) Robert Rodriguez (El Mariachi), Kevin Smith (Clerks), and Oren Peli (Paranormal Activity) come to mind. I’m sure many of you are familiar with the cult indie film classic The Boondock Saints but many of you might not know the crazy story of its writer and director Troy Duffy.

Well, prepare to get your mind BLOWN. I had an EXCLUSIVE discussion with Troy this week, and let’s say, he did not hold back. Nothing was off-limits – from his instant rise to fame to the brutal fate he met – getting blacklisted, all of it. He wanted to set the record straight because there is always another side to the story, and what better side to hear than that of the man who lived this brutal Hollywood adventure?

14. Barry Sonnenfeld

I can’t tell you how excited I am for today’s episode. I had the pleasure to speak to the legendary director Barry Sonnenfeld. We discuss his idiosyncratic upbringing in New York City, his breaking into film as a cinematographer with the Coen brothers, and his unexpected career as the director behind such huge film franchises as The Addams Family and Men in Black, and beloved work like Get Shorty, Pushing Daises, and A Series of Unfortunate Events.

We also chat about the time he shot nine porno films in nine days. That story alone is worth the price of admission.

15. Alex Proyas

I can’t be more excited to bring you this episode. On today’s show, we have the legendary writer/director Alex Proyas, the filmmaker behind The Crow, Dark City, The Knowing, Gods of Egypt, and I, Robot.

Alex Proyas had a huge influence on my filmmaking life. The Crow was one of those films I watch a thousand times, in the theater, when I was in film school. He began his filmmaking career working in music videos with the likes of Sting, INXS, and Fleetwood Mac before getting the opportunity to direct The Crow.

15.1 Sean Baker

Sean Baker is a writer, director, producer and editor who has made seven independent feature films over the course of the past two decades. His most recent film was the award-winning The Florida Project (2017) which premiered at the Cannes Film Festival and was released by A24 in the U.S. Among the many accolades the film received — including an Oscar nomination for Willem Dafoe for Best Supporting Actor — Sean was named Best Director by the New York Film Critics Circle.

His previous film Tangerine (2015) premiered at the Sundance Film Festival and won an Independent Spirit and two Gotham Awards. Starlet (2012) was the winner of the Robert Altman Independent Spirit Award and his previous two features, Take Out (2004) and Prince of Broadway (2008), were both nominated for the John Cassavetes Independent Spirit Award.

Bonus: Eric Roth

This week, I sat down with one of the most legendary and successful screenwriters/producers in Hollywood, Oscar® Winner Eric Roth. Over a 50+ years career, he’s well-known for writing or producing films like Forrest Gump, A Star is Born, Mank, The Curious Case of Benjamin Button, Munich, Ali, and the list goes on.

Bonus: David Chase

The legacy of the crime drama television series, The Sopranos remains a defining art of storytelling for mob TV shows. We have the genius behind this hit TV series, David Chase as our guest today.

As expected, Chase is a twenty-five-time Emmy Awards-winner, seven times Golden Globes winner, and highly acclaimed producer, writer, and director. His forty-year career in Hollywood has contributed immensely to the experience of quality TV.

Before getting into the nitty-gritty of Chase, let’s do a brief of the HBO 1999 hit show, The Sopranos: Produced by HBO, Chase Films, and Brad Grey Television, the story ran for six seasons, revolving around Tony Soprano, played by James Gandolfini, a New Jersey-based Italian-American mobster, portraying the difficulties that he faces as he tries to balance his family life with his role as the leader of a criminal organization.

Bonus: Billy Crystal 

There are performers that impact your life without you even knowing it and today’s guest fits that bill. On the show, we have comedic genius, multi-award-winning actor, writer, producer, director, and television host, Billy Crystal. We’ve seen Billy’s versatile work across all areas in the entertainment world, stand-up, improv, Broadway, behind and in front of the camera, feature films, television, live stages like SNL, and animated movies.

 

IFH 531: Shooting Red Rocket on 16mm Anamorphic & Guerrilla Filmmaking with Sean Baker

Sean Baker, Red Rocket

You are in for a treat today. We have returning champion writer/director Sean Baker.

Sean Baker is a writer, director, producer and editor who has made seven independent feature films over the course of the past two decades. His most recent film was the award-winning The Florida Project (2017) which premiered at the Cannes Film Festival and was released by A24 in the U.S. Among the many accolades the film received — including an Oscar nomination for Willem Dafoe for Best Supporting Actor — Sean was named Best Director by the New York Film Critics Circle.

His previous film Tangerine (2015) premiered at the Sundance Film Festival and won an Independent Spirit and two Gotham Awards. Starlet (2012) was the winner of the Robert Altman Independent Spirit Award and his previous two features, Take Out (2004) and Prince of Broadway (2008), were both nominated for the John Cassavetes Independent Spirit Award.

His remarkable new film is Red Rocket. The audacious new film from writer- director Sean Baker (The Florida Project, Tangerine), starring Simon Rex in a magnetic, live-wire performance, Red Rocket is a darkly funny, humane portrait of a uniquely American hustler and a hometown that barely tolerates him.

I watched Red Rocket and I have to tell you it’s one of the best films I’ve seen this year.

Sean and I discuss his creative process, how he shot Red Rocket with a 10 person crew and a very limited budget, during COVID. Red Rocket opens today in theaters.

Enjoy my conversation with Sean Baker.

Right-click here to download the MP3

 

Alex Ferrari 0:03
Today we have returning champion, Oscar nominated writer director Sean Baker. Now you might know Sean from his film tangerine, which lit the entire independent film world on fire when it came out a few years ago, because it was shot entirely on an iPhone and got a major release. His next project after that was the Florida project, which got nominated for an Oscar. And his newest film is called Red Rocket starring Simon Rex. And I had the pleasure of watching Red Rocket a few weeks ago. And I gotta tell you, it's easily one of my favorite films of 2021. It is is Sean Baker of a film as you can get. The characters are vivid, it was shot beautifully on 16 millimeter film using anamorphic lenses. So this is why giant scope of a film on a very little budget, we get into the weeds on how we made this film with a 10 person crew during COVID. And all the things that you might think of that, you know, once a once a filmmaker is nominated for an Oscar they don't have to put up with, you know, hunting for locations and maybe stealing some shots and low budgets. Well that's not the case. Sean wants to tell his stories and he tells him the way he wants to say it. And that unfortunately sometimes is lower budgets so he was able to run and gun and make this amazing film. With little time and little money during the middle of a pandemic. It is a remarkable feat to say the least the performances are amazing Simon Rex should get nominated for an Oscar as well as the film and Shawn as well in my opinion, but let's jump in without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Sean Baker. I like to welcome back to the show returning champion Sean Baker. How're you doing, Sean?

Sean Baker 4:29
Hey, how are you? It's great to be back.

Alex Ferrari 4:32
I'm good, man. I'm good. Last time you were here. You had that little iPhone film that did okay.

Sean Baker 4:38
Yeah, remember?

Alex Ferrari 4:40
It did all right. Um, but we're here to talk today. We're gonna go a little bit into your process. And we're also going to talk about your amazing new film red rocket, which I had the pleasure of watching a couple weeks ago and I was just of course floored by it. And it's so funny because I literally just moved to Austin. So I was out I was in Texas, and I was just like, wow, this is just another part of Texas. I did not know about

Sean Baker 5:06
Well Texas is so big. I mean, you talk to people in West and West Texas, and they have no idea what's happening over in East Texas. So, I understand, did you watch that AFS?

Alex Ferrari 5:16
No, I watched it at a press screening. There was a press screening. Oh, okay. Okay, I went to a press, I went to a press screening at it. And they're like, do you wanna see Shawn's new movie? I'm like, Yes. And I went in there. And it was it was a it's an experience, we'll talk about it. But for for everybody listening who might not know what you've done, how did you get into the business? What like made what drew you in?

Sean Baker 5:37
Well, I, I've wanted to make films since I was six years old when my mother brought me to the local library. And they were showing clips from the universal monster films. And I fell in love with an image from James Wales, Frankenstein, the burning windmill sequence At the end of the film. And I remember that night, the day before, I wanted to be a construction worker. And the next day, I was like, I want to be a filmmaker. So that's the way that happened. And I went through the cliche, you know, that that shooting Super Eight film until VHS rolled around, I'm showing my age right now.

Alex Ferrari 6:14
You me both brother, you, me both.

Sean Baker 6:17
You know, just just just taking in as much film at the time as I could, being in suburban New Jersey. So being exposed, you know, using the video store, essentially, as my, my education, making, you know, VHS films in high school, doing my yearbook, my video yearbook for my high school, you know, the geeky AV club thing, then I'm then going to NYU going to NYU. You know, I applied to USC, UCLA and NYU I forgot if I got into the other two, but NYU is like the one I really wanted to because to go to because at the time, you know, it was really Spike Lee and John moosh had made such an impact. And I was so I don't know, there was something that was that was telling me, you know, I'm already close to New York, I really want to embrace that New York indie thing that these guys have going on. So went to undergrad there. And during those four years, I got being in New York, you know, this was still pre internet, but I had access to a lot more towards in terms of repertory houses and Kim's video store. Yeah, and being exposed to not only much, you know, the greater world of independent film and discovering passive Eddie's was etc. But also foreign film barn film was made its impact. So going into NYU with like, aspirations of doing, you know, making robot cop or Die Hard down the line, you know, it turned into me wanting to make mystery train down the line, you know, like, by the end of those four years, and yeah, and then shortly after NYU, I pulled together enough money out shortly, I guess it was a few years. But we, we scraped together $50,000 by doing some corporate videos and commercials, enough to shoot my first film, four letter words, and 96 on 35 millimeter, actually, and it's being released this upcoming year finally restored, you know, it's not a very good film. It's a young, young movie. But it got me started, it took four years, you know, I was in my 20s Things were crazy. But, you know, I eventually it premiered at South by Southwest in 2000. And that was sort of my entry into that world. And, and yeah, and then I'll wrap it up really quick by saying that dogma 95 was really, really important at that time, and it made me shift my, I'd already, of course, was in it and wanted to be continue and really, you know, my goal was to become an established filmmaker, but that really changed my focus. And that's what led to us making takeout and I think ever since takeout. There's been sort of like, I've been finding my way in that world of exploring, you know, stories that you know, of communities of, you know, of subcultures that I'm not a part of, you know, that I that I wanted to, to to explore myself through these movies. So, and that has sort of been the through line ever since.

Alex Ferrari 9:26
But I just want to put this out there. I do want to see your Robocop and your diehard. If you want to remake them, I will be I'll be first in line to see your Shawn Baker's Robocop. Very interesting. Starring Simon Rex, obviously.

Sean Baker 9:39
Yeah. Because Verhoeven was like, that's the impact he had on me in high school, but then discovering his other films later and his earlier Dutch, you know, I guess, sex focused movies. You know, they were unfairly called sexploitation back in the day, but like films like you know, Turkish dilla and spiders actually had a major influence on red rocket. So all these years later, it was his other movies that that have had a direct impact.

Alex Ferrari 10:12
Yeah, no question. And and if you anyone looking at Robocop now it's just not just an action movie, there's so much commentary, so much commentary in a film like that.

Sean Baker 10:22
And I have my tickets bought for Benedetta already wrap house this weekend.

Alex Ferrari 10:27
That's awesome. Now I also remember watching the Florida project, which is your last film. And I don't know if I told you this, but I actually, I actually stayed in those hotels. Oh, yeah, not but as growing up as a kid, because I lived in Florida, and we would go to Disney World. And that's that row of hotels that you just you just park and go in and go out. And you wouldn't even realize what you know, I didn't even know that there was a subculture there. I just was a kid. So I was there. So it's amazing how you're able to capture these kinds of subcultures in a way and you shine a light on on subcultures that really don't get light shined on them at all.

Sean Baker 11:08
Well, in that case, it was actually crisper, gosh, who brought that idea to the table because he sent me an article about the children living in the extended stay motels in the shadow of Disney World. And I just found it incredibly compelling. And then also I didn't even know the term hidden homelessness. So it was something I was learning an issue that I was learning while while you know, developing this film and, and so, so just, I just wanted to give you a back ground of like how that came to be,

Alex Ferrari 11:39
Right. Now, how did you how did Red Rocket come to life?

Sean Baker 11:44
That was actually based on research we had done for a film I made before tangerine called starlet, which was also focused on the adult film world. And during a 10 years ago, when we were you know, making that film, we got to meet many people from needle film world and we realized that there was this archetype that existed men, usually male talent, who live off of female talent in and you know, exploited use them in the adult film world. So they don't represent all men in the adult film world. But there is this archetype even have this slang term applied to them suitcase pimp, which we use in the movie. And I have to say that, like, it was something that even being on the set of starlet 10 years ago, thinking, there's a whole other movie for, you know, that can be made based on one of these guys. And so it was about five years later, when we finished up Florida project, that we were entertaining a bunch of ideas. And that's when we said should we tackle this? Alright, let's start fleshing it out. And we fleshed it out. It took a few days, because we already knew these guys, and we had interviewed some of them. So the we had beginning, middle and end. And it was even when I actually thought about Simon for it, because it was during the days of vine, and he had a vine presence. And he was making he was entertaining the hell out of me. So I thought I even remember texting one of my producers saying and if we do make red rock, it's going to be this guy and I I texted them one of Simon's Vine videos, and they laughed and said, okay, cool. It's set. Now, that's unique casting. But then it was all put on the backburner. Because we had moved, we decided to move forward on another idea. And then COVID hit, and COVID shut down that idea because it was something that couldn't be made during a pandemic. And we pivoted back to red rocket, which was sitting on the backburner, and all it required was really just fleshing out because again, we had beginning middle and end broken down, we kind of knew we knew the character and knew the supporting characters. So it was really about finding our setting, and just getting this thing spit out on paper.

Alex Ferrari 13:56
So you so you cast it, Simon via vine, essentially.

Sean Baker 14:02
Yeah. And also, um, Joseph bought Joseph cons bodied. It's a small indie, by music video director, primarily music video director, but he's an indie isn't an indie filmmaker by the name of Joseph Kahn.

Alex Ferrari 14:16
He's a fantastic Yeah,

Sean Baker 14:17
Yeah. Yeah. And Simon had quite a substantial cameo in that movie. And I read I didn't you I forgot about, I forgot about this. There have been people who who alerted me that I did this. But on letterbox back when I watched Bodhi back in the day or a couple years ago, a few years ago, I actually wrote like, Can somebody give Simon Rex a dramatic role already? You know, and so I think that that may have been the one that really was like, you know, that made me that cemented the idea that I want to work with this guy. So um, and yes,

Alex Ferrari 14:54
So when you when so you when you're working when you're casting because you have some of the most impeccable casting Decisions of your generation of filmmakers honestly, like you pick up like there's no, there's no place that Simon Rex is on the list for this for this part, but yet he should get an Oscar nomination. There's no question he should get he's,

Sean Baker 15:17
Thank you. I agree.

Alex Ferrari 15:18
He's brilliant in this. He was like born to play this part. And I don't mean that in a negative way, because of the part of the he's not playing the nicest human being on the planet. Right? Right. What how he's able to bring that character to life. Can you can you give any tips on on your process of casting? Like, how do you make the decision? Because I'm assuming, you know, after your success with tangerine and Florida project, I mean, you probably get pitched constantly like, oh, this actor and this actor, and this is the this disguise or as a bigger box office? or this or that? What how do you?

Sean Baker 15:51
Yeah, I actually have returned emails to agents saying, Sorry, your actor is too famous.

Alex Ferrari 16:01
Which I'm sure they love. I'm sure they love that.

Sean Baker 16:03
But it's only me it's shooting myself in my foot every single time. But um, no, no, I love the fresh faces, I actually take that cue from Spike Lee, you know, Spike Lee, always, even if he put A listers in his films as the leads, he was always surrounding them with fresh faces. I think I saw Samuel Jackson for the first time in Jungle Fever, and being like, Oh, my God, who is this guy, thank you for bringing him into the talent pool. I mean, he's incredible. So that's what I look to do every time and also, I just, um, you know, I read, you know, regarding, you know, my, my first timers, I've just, you know, keep my eyes open, you know, I just keep my eyes open i st cast even when I'm not in current development, you know, Susanna son came about because we saw her at the Arclight Hollywood in the lobby, and she was coming in those glass doors while we were over near the ticket booth. And we looked over and saw her and just thought she had that, that that quality that can't be defined, it's that it quality, it's an aura, that energy that says I'm a star, and you want it you can see watching that person on the big screen for two hours, you know, and wanting to see that person on the big screen for two hours. So you know, you exchange information, you keep that person on file, and then you hope that everything comes together, they have the enthusiasm to do it, and they have the talent to do it. And I've been very lucky, where I've surrounded myself with these first timers who all have that.

Alex Ferrari 17:35
How do you I have to ask you, because the performances that you pull out of, of your actors, or the collaboration that you have with these actors, how do you approach directing actors? Because I mean, their performances from tangerine up until you know, just just your last year tired filmography but the last three films specifically, some of the performances you've pulled out, they get not they get nominated. Not that means anything but they're really good. How do you approach the acting, directing actors?

Sean Baker 18:04
Thank you. I mean, every every individual is different, even if they are experienced, you know, very, like well, like well, but will are like I consider my three leads actually experienced actors in Red Rocket because I didn't mention that. You know, even though I met Susanna son on the street casting I discovered after the fact that she already had an Instagram presence and the reason that she was in Hollywood is because she had just moved there as an aspiring actor. So you know, I consider her and Brielle rod who plays Lexie in the film, she's had a, you know, two decades of theater experience, and she was in a small role on Shutter Island. And then Simon You know, who's been in this world for quite a while, they're the experience actors, they're the ones who come with like, years of experience are not yours, but you know, they come with that. And then you have first timers who have all different levels of, you know, experience aspirations, you know, comfort levels. So each one is different, everybody's different and it's really just about becoming friends, being very casual, being transparent, making them feel comfortable becoming a family unit in which nobody is embarrassed about anything I do I do actually encourage improvisation in my films all the time. I love it. You know we have pretty much you know, we do have a fleshed out script and especially with Red Rocket because red rocket was shot in such a fast it was COVID and small, you know, small budget so we had very limited amount of time. So out of all my films, probably Red Rocket is the most scripted. With all those Mikey Sabre rants and everything, those are all but I still allow I want my my cast to improvise, and you never want them to feel put on the spot. You know what I mean? I can't you want them and never feel embarrassed about trying things and experimenting And so, you know, I have my incredible actors who are so incredibly brave and bold, they'll go in front of a camera and they'll try something. And if it doesn't work, who cares? It doesn't work. Let's go for an outtake and try something else. And, and, and getting everybody in that place where everybody's comfortable and feel safe. And red rocket was perfect for that, because it was like a small 10 person crew. Tiny we were a pod, we were very isolated. And it just allowed for that it was a good environment. And then, uh, one more thing I want to add, you know, since Florida project, I've been working with a coach, my wife and producer Samantha Quan. And she worked with the two children, or the three children on Florida project, but it was during our project that I told her, I have these, you know, the two moms I, I decided that I'm going to cast them with it's essentially first timers. So can you help me out the moms, and because Samantha's female, there's that that really helps as well, you know, they, they might feel more comfortable at first with another woman. And she's also very maternal. So there's, you know, it's it that that really showed me during Florida project that, Sam, Samantha brings a lot to the table there. And so with red rocket, I was able to give some of the first timers to Samantha and say, why don't you guys workshop? Why don't you guys try these scenes out? I'm focusing on this, tell me when you're ready to, for me to watch it, I would come in watch where they were going, give them tweaks, give them notes. And it was really a great day. So So Samantha has been very much a part of that new process?

Alex Ferrari 21:40
And is, are there any other tips that you can give about directing non actors? Because you've had a few of those are films over the years of neither new actors specifically, but but more like non actors of the people who just don't act?

Sean Baker 21:56
And yeah, it's always saying, Hey, if you don't feel comfortable, if the scripted dialogue is not rolling off their tongue, you, I'm told I'm never precious with any of the stuff we write, except if it's unless it's a really good line I'm proud of, or it's exposition. Sure, I'm okay with saying, put this in your own words, or how would you say it, especially if they're from that area, or part of the culture that we're focusing on? It really is invaluable? Because they'll bring stuff that you never would have they elevate your script, they make it more realistic, they they bring in slang that you didn't know about, there was plenty of that in Red Rocket, plenty of it. Like Britney Rodriguez, just just asking her in a moment saying this scene isn't there's something about this line that's playing a little bit like an East Coast, New Yorker wrote this line, can you help me out? And she would think about it for a little while, and then come up back with some ideas. And so there was that collaboration out? Should I give you an example from Russia? Be No way. Okay, cool. So when we Andrea, who is who plays her mother in the film, I'm talking about Brittany Rodriguez plays June, her mother is leandria played by Judy Hill, Judy Hill is talking to Simon and realizing that he has dropped his Texas accent. And in the script, it was just like, you know, where's your accent? Or where's your remember, go a very bland, boring line. And so in the moment, we just, I said, you know, I don't like this, it doesn't, it's not exciting, let's just bring some local color to it, Brittany anything. And Brittany was like, he sounds brand new. And I was like, perfect. Alright, leandria that's what you gotta say you so you sound brand new and stuff like that stuff like it those little, you know, that just that little, those little details, you know, add so much and, and that's what you get out of sometimes working with these, you know, the first timers who have a parallel life experience and can actually bring that to the table.

Alex Ferrari 24:03
Right! And and I love that you and you could tell in your films that you are not precious about the dialogue, because it just seems so natural rolls off the tongue so much. And you can just you know, as a director, you look at things you're like, okay, that either that was an amazing performance, or they're just kind of rolling with it in our in the moment. And you can tell that, especially in Red Rock, there was a lot of that going on in the background. But with with the input, a lot of the improvisation that's going on on set. What is your writing process? Like? How do you start writing a movie like Red Rocket?

Sean Baker 24:37
Well, each one's different. Each one is different, like this one was, I didn't even see Chris. I mean, Chris and I were basically zooming. Right and then we had a shared Google Doc. So it was one of those things and because we had broken it down years ago, and I already knew beginning middle and end is more about just like taking on these these major rants and Taking on the dialogue. And so, you know, we just write it out and share it with one another and give each other's notes. And, and yeah, so So in this case, it was very remote writing and a lot of writing in Galveston, Texas actually in my Airbnb, you know, weeks before we were actually shooting and but everyone's every every every approaches everyone's different Oh, the one thing I do want to the one consistency of all the my writing experiences is that we always have the end worked out in our heads before we even open up Final Draft ending is a very endings are very important for me. They really you know, at my favorite films have very impactful endings that keep you thinking as you're exiting the theater and interpreting and, and right sometimes writing your own ends. And I appreciate those movies. And so I always keep that in mind. I mean, I won't, I won't open up Final Draft until we have beginning middle and end worked out.

Alex Ferrari 26:04
Now, I always love asking creatives this what what do you do to tap into the zone that creative? Well, that we all have in? You know, we all have I always say we have our personal creative wells that we can tap into. And sometimes you're in the zone. And sometimes you're not in the zone. What is there something that you do in your writing process that you get into your mind for in a mind frame where you can then accept a muse, if you will, the Muse shows up and starts helping you.

Sean Baker 26:32
I wish I could say there there, there is something it usually it's usually a producer holding a gun to my head. Better get done now. So it's actually there's a lot of procrastination, a lot of napping, but I think moments of inspiration come where you're not least expecting it sometimes when you're in a movie theater watching somebody else's film where you're just like, now I got I got that figured out. Okay, I can't wait, you know, so. It's really just, um, you know, I'm sorry, yeah, I can't tell you one specific thing. It's more about like just allowing it to come and giving time and also cutting yourself deadlines, we have to get as human beings, we have to, or at least for me, I have to have deadlines. So in order in order in that crunch time seems to speed things up, you know, seems to speed up the creative juices that they get down during the crunch time. So it's really just about discipline, quite honestly, it's about discipline. And yeah

Alex Ferrari 27:28
Showing showing up in the Muse will show up with you.

Sean Baker 27:29
Yeah, yeah, essentially.

Alex Ferrari 27:33
Now, I you know, as directors, you know, there's always that one day on set, that the entire world is coming crashing down around you. You're losing the sun, the camera broke. There's an elephant running through your shot, something. What was that day on Red Rock? And how did you overcome it?

Sean Baker 27:50
Well, I realized I couldn't overcome it. So it was an acceptance during pre production, okay, right, I was going to have to accept all these freakin limitations. And I broke a chair, I never do that I'm not a violent guy. I don't get physical. But one day, that my, my, my, essentially, this whole scene that I had written would be impossible to do based on our budget. I can't tell you what it is. But it was a big set piece that required stunts and everything. And I'm just like, I realized at that point that I have no choice. I'm I locked myself into this budget of a type this type of movie. I'm these COVID. And everything else is, is imposing these limitations. And I lifted up a plastic chair and I broke it on the front porch. That was it. That was like the cathartic like, okay, I get that. Because from that point on it, we had disasters every three hours where we would like lose something or this and that, but it was it was chill, it was like, we're not gonna freak out. Because we realize we do not have the money. And we do not have the time to throw at problems. So instead of tackling those problems, we'll pivot and go another direction, and then all the serendipity and all these happy accidents started coming our way. So every day even though there was like a problem, every three hours, there was also a miracle every three hours. So I was every day I was getting these miracles where I was like, Oh my God, that happened today. Like that happens. The whole thing with the train. And the proposal that big scene was of course, it was timed. We knew it was coming, but we only had one chance to do it because the train came in once a day. We had 20 minutes prep, and like things just worked out. So wonderfully in that moment, like the conductor was blowing his horn at the perfect moment that it would complement the dialogue and the scene. So a lot of the gifts from the film gods came our way as soon as I was open to them.

Alex Ferrari 29:57
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. You know, we're used to, were you essentially running and gunning, like an EMG crew almost sometimes. I mean, there was obviously a plan for your day. But you pivot, you're like, Okay, we're gonna go do this. Now let's go and you kind of come up with it on the fly almost

Sean Baker 30:20
Yes, there was a lot an incredible amount of running and cutting it felt like a gorilla film making from well, I guess you could say it was like, very much like tangerine. We were just on the street. And we're like, oh, this dialogue scene. We're not feeling this right now. So let's just do this instead. Or like, you know, let's just, let's just follow Mikey on the bike for three hours, see what happens, you know, um, you know, there was a lot of that a lot of stealing scenes, you know, meaning that we didn't always have permits.

Alex Ferrari 30:49
I was gonna ask, I was gonna ask you that. It seems like when you're watching the movie, and you basically have the run of the town, but I'm assuming like, they had to, like, just kind of grab some stuff here and there that did they technically a lot of it

Sean Baker 31:03
A lot. And you know, it's as long as you do it safely. There's no problem with that, you know, of course, against the law. So, you know, we were, we were always doing it safely. And we were, and I think we just embrace that spontaneity. We were saying there's, there's improv in front of the camera. So Why can't every improv behind the camera. And that's great. I love that line. I love and also drew Daniels and his team are just, you know, they're just they're geniuses. I end up back that they pulled that off a four person camera crew pulled off those images. Yeah, Drew Daniels, you had a first AC, a second AC and a gaffer grip, meaning one person doing both gaffing and gripping Chris Hill who worked on Zola recently as well. He's amazing. So those four guys, and then you have the sound? Yeah, when you had our sound one a one man. Sound team. Alex.

Alex Ferrari 31:58
He did the mix mixing and booming at the same time.

Sean Baker 32:01
Yep. Yep. And then you had my sister who is Stefanik. And she is the production designer on the film. And then every other role, which is only four right? Because those are six people. And then you have four others making a crew of 10 the other four members were just producers wearing many, many hats, and they were all wearing them so well. I mean, like, you know, I'll give you an example. She Cheng's. Oh, who is actually in the film? She plays Miss fan at Arizona. Hello, what? She's wonderful. Yeah, well, she's also doing continuity while acting. And she's also doing costume design. And she was also responsible for, you know, a little bit of transportation here and there. So you know, you can see like, how much everybody is given their all

Alex Ferrari 32:47
It was an indie movie. It was it was it truly wasn't a new movie. And what I love about your career is I've been following it is that you know, after success of tangerine, and then of course, after Florida project, you can easily go down, the bigger budget roads, I'm sure they've been offered, those kinds of films might have been offered to you. But you get you really still want to stay in the world that you have 100% control over and explore stories that might not be, you know, doesn't have a superhero in it.

Sean Baker 33:15
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I just I know, I know, it's tempting. You know, I know, it's definitely tempting. Sure, I'm sure there's a monetary purposes. You know,

Alex Ferrari 33:27
The, the checks must be insane.

Sean Baker 33:29
Yeah, that's the big thing that I'm, I'm always conflicted about, like, should I make my life easier and make a film for a studio or more, you know, go to a series, but I've been starting to work in commercials, which have been really helped. That's like, my side hustle, which is like, my main bread and butter. And even if you get one spot a year, it's gonna pay you a lot better than working in indie film. But then on top of that, but it's more than that. I just, it's about like you if, you know if you if you if you? Yeah, I'm the type of I'm so neurotic. And it's like, I just want to I just want to sleep at night, you know? And not beat myself up by you know, I feel like I you know, I want to tell personal stories, I want to tell I want to films take a long time they take over two years, you know, you put all of your energy all of your heart into them. So why not tell it make the movie you want to make? And so I look at the I look at the, you know, the filmmakers that I admire, who had personal visions, and each film is different and each film is unexpected and, and yet they stayed true to their vision. The germ whooshes you know PGAS Spike Lee's you know, they these these these are the people who molded my career and and so I just no follow I follow their path.

Alex Ferrari 34:52
Fair, fair enough. Now, do you do you rehearse with your actors?

Sean Baker 34:57
Yeah, yeah, we do. We do. sometime not too much. I don't I don't like to over rehearse. I think that that's dangerous. Sometimes with first timers, you want to over rehearse it all comes down to the all comes down to the individual. And yeah, and as I mentioned earlier with Samantha Kwan, she's been wonderful now because sometimes it's not really for me, but it's more for the actors just to make them feel comfortable, you know, so just doing workshops and doing repetition of the scenes is I don't even have to see them all the time. As long as they're just they're doing them. Yeah, but the rehearsals for me, it's usually just, it's just about, I've already been, I'm already confident my actors can pull it off. They're already 95% there. So it's, my rehearsals are about just tweaking and maneuvering and guiding. So yeah, I do

Alex Ferrari 35:50
Now, I have to ask when you pitch this project assignment, and you sent him the script and the role like cuz this is a this is a challenging role. And it's a very exposing role. And in many ways, did he kind of was he hesitant or he's like, Oh, I'm so it.

Sean Baker 36:10
Who's pretty much all in? I mean, you know, he, he did. I honestly don't remember many of our early conversations, except for the fact that we just like he was on board, he was excited. And we we discussed the character discussed sort of the character traits that I saw in the Mikey Sabres that I had met and said to him, you know, this is like, you know, you're going to be playing a manchild here. You're gonna, you know, and all of those characteristics that come with the suitcase pimp and, and he had watched some of the interviews I had done of some gentleman from that world, so he but he didn't watch too much. He was like, I don't want to do a carrot. I don't want to do an impersonation. But I got the vibe, I got the Energy Plus he said, I you know, I've been in Hollywood for like the last three decades, I can pull from a lot of that I can pull from the narcissistic sociopathic jerks from the industry, and really use that. So I think he used that quite honestly. And again, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 37:16
You mean to tell me there's egos in Hollywood and, you know, stop it. Now, do you? Do you ever storyboard Do you shot list? Or do you just kind of flow with it on the day?

Sean Baker 37:27
I don't storyboard simply because I can't draw. And I haven't had the budget to hire sorry. But I've storyboard it on spots, commercial spots, and I really like I like it. But I also just, like, just just, you know, I, I'm my own editor, I edit all of my film. So I always have my editing hat on all the time. So when I'm, I'm shortlisting, I'm, you know, I do shortlist, especially on a film like Red Rocket in which we've had to, we had to run and gun so that, you know, sometimes it's a week before, sometimes it's a night before, you know, where I'm sitting down with my producer. And we're figuring out all the coverage of the scene. And sometimes with my DP as well, like how we're going to cover this and, and so it's it, even though there as I mentioned earlier, there is improv behind the camera. There also is a control behind the camera and we know how we're going to, you know, expect especially if it's a controlled scene, and there's a set piece Yeah, we will have it worked out. And then there are other scenes, like say, the sabotage moment at the end of the movie, in which you have to profess to seasoned actors in there and the rest all non professionals are first timers. Sorry. First timers, I don't like using the word non professional.

Alex Ferrari 38:41
Because they were professional first timers.

Sean Baker 38:45
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, we were in a tiny room together, and there's a lot of chaos. And in that moment, I was like, you know, it's best just to do what they call hosing down. So Drew, you're gonna hose down every we're gonna do multiple takes, where you're just all over the place, and I'm not going to tell you where to go. You just go where you want to go. Or sometimes I'll, I'll guide you but you know, it's more about just being as spontaneous with the handheld camera as the actors are being in the moment. And so that there's that but then there's also the very controlled, you know, I think you can see with red rocket, we were pulling a lot from the controlled cinema of Spielberg with you know, Sugarland Express and Bill moose, Sigmund. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So we have dollies, we have very controlled camera moves, very controlled framing. And so it's really about it's, it's, yeah, it's about mixing it up and finding a way.

Alex Ferrari 39:38
Yeah, it was it wasn't it wasn't like you just it was all handheld the entire time there was very, it had a very Sugarland Express vibe to it. That was a grid with think about because it did have that kind of control vibe, but yet it still had that kind of on the moment. EMG documentary five almost sometimes as well. And you just said if I'm not mistaken, you shot this on film right?

Sean Baker 40:00
Yes, we did. Primarily, I mean, there was some night scenes that had to be shot digitally because of low light. And then we had to do a tremendous amount of treatment in post for it to match the 16. Which I think you know, my incredible colorist Arnold at photochem did wonderfully. But yeah, super 16 I'm sorry. 16 anamorphic. So we were using anamorphic lenses for 16 that haven't is very rare in VR making. Yeah. I think the lenses we actually used from what I know and I might be, I might I don't know if I'm I still I haven't gotten confirmation on this. But I think we are the only feature to have used these phantom vision 16 And a Morphix. They've been used primarily on commercials and music videos and fashion films. But but we were able to capture a look with this that I think is very different from the average 16 millimeter look, it's a real throwback, it has this the proper scope of like a, you know, a Hollywood film in some ways, yet, it's still very gritty. The way it captured that landscape, you know, we needed that 235 aspect ratio to do that. And Drew Daniels is so fast on 16 that he would have a setup ready to go before I knew it. And usually he was waiting on me you know, on it's usually on a set it's like how long is camera going to take or? Sound? Yeah, yeah, Andrew would just look at me he's like, I'm waiting on you. I'm waiting on you did.

Alex Ferrari 41:34
Now, there's another part of this movie that you have forever changed the meaning of instincts. Bye bye bye. For me forever and ever and ever. Because it's a no win. Win Win win because I think it's in the trailer too. Right? They use that

Sean Baker 41:53
Yeah, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 41:54
It's they use it so when I saw it in the trailer, I'm like, Okay, this is gonna be a lot of fun. But then as you use it and the way you use it in the movie, is it's the only song to use right?

Sean Baker 42:05
And yeah, well you know we have so we have music coming out of radios and that big puddle of mud song which actually costs a lot for the strip joint but besides that yeah, no Nsync's bye bye bye

Alex Ferrari 42:19
Is the score is the score Yeah, so there was no there was is there any reason why you didn't want to fill it in with some score or other music?

Sean Baker 42:26
You know what I haven't used the score ever actually and I even though I love soundtracks I some my favorite films have incredible lush wall to wall soundtracks. My subject matter I'm usually you know, I It's hard to go with with the overly scored thing is something I you know, I try to avoid this because it's, it's what will age the fastest with your films, I think scores age the quickest. And then on top of that, is that manipulation, it's a very blatant manipulation that it comes with scoring. And these days, we're, I think films are kind of overly scored. And I don't mean to slam any movies, but I mean, like, the constant strings, I get, we get it.

Alex Ferrari 43:10
I know, I need to be sad here. I need to be excited here. I get it

Sean Baker 43:14
Yeah, this is how you should feel. And I that's the last thing I want to do. I want to you know, present, you know, a very objectively my stories and characters and without judgment. So So I want I want the audience to, you know, to I want to allow the audience to feel what they are feeling without manipulating so. So, you know, the closest I ever came to a score was I think in starlet where I kind of had a repetition of, of one track by an artist by the name of manual. And, and that was like a consistent repetition to the point and it was ambient, it was an ambient track. So it became sort of a score, but I've been avoiding that with my work and I don't know whether that'll change soon.

Alex Ferrari 43:58
Okay, sure. Yeah. Now and when you were editing cuz I've been an editor for 25 years, so I know that I know how the process of cutting it goes. What is your process as far as like, you know, do you just do a rough cut? Or like you just like assemble it all? Are you What did you cut on by the way did you cut on what did you

Sean Baker 44:16
We put on Adobe Premiere

Alex Ferrari 44:19
Oh okay, so yeah, so you know, do you jump in and out of color you know to see if things work out what is your process

Sean Baker 44:24
Well are are wonderful colors so I mentioned earlier our our Arnold, he gave us a lot that kind of worked universally. Okay, good, but so I didn't have to worry much with color. But then, um, I am kind of, I'm kind of crazy. I go right to a fine cut. That's my that's my Yeah, I know. It's weird. I don't do an assemble. I don't do a rough. I don't even I don't even move on to the next scene until the scene that I'm tackling is polished and I'm talking polished. I mean, tight. Yeah, yeah, no, I'm even doing sound design on that on that scene before. Moving to the next scene. So tell you the truth. I don't know whether the movie works as a whole until the last day of the edit. Until I've like locked the fine picture, the fine cut. And so, um, yeah, it's kind of nerve wracking for my producers especially and for me, I'm just like, well, I lose my mind. I'm, every post production is been a little difficult. I've been getting better, but I go into that whole like living, you know, nocturnally I become a vampire. I, you know, it's it's it's a few months of insanity. But, um, but yeah, it's something that I find necessary because it's like my I put my signature on it. I find my film ultimately in post production. And it's like, it's like 50% of my directing in a way so. And you know what, these days I have to say, with Florida project, I've learned a lot about what I can do in post like we're living in a day and age where you used to say Never say you can fix it in post because you can't now you can. Now there's a lot you actually can do there is and I'm doing a lot of cleanup. I'm doing a lot of split screens and visible split screens. I'm doing mats that you would never see but stuff that is really allowed me as a director to even be directing further and post and manipulating even for timing of performance sometimes and so that's that's been really like this new it's brought it's made editing fresh for me again.

Alex Ferrari 46:29
Yeah, it's kind of like what Fincher Fincher LA. He's just days and weeks and months. Yeah, exactly. That's like doing split screens, changing performances, adding one performance from here and another performance from there and mixing different takes and like really, you're directing you're still directing at that point.

Sean Baker 46:44
Exactly. I watched the manque. DGA q&a he did and he said that almost every frame of that film was manipulated to some degree in post and, and that's incredible. You know, I and my, I was doing so much of that with red rocket, you know, cleaning up little things in here and there. Like for example, with red with donut hole, which is almost supposed to be this. It's supposed to be otherworldly. It's supposed to be almost it could be seen as as Mikey's fantasy, you know, just doesn't, it's not totally based in the real world, I'd be cleaning up stuff that just, you know, just made that, that that space, less congested and prettier. So I would take away you know, electric cords, I would take away a sign I didn't like, you know, and so this is that's possible these days. And it's really I don't know it's inspiring for me because it's like a new way of filmmaking and,

Alex Ferrari 47:38
And, and I see a sense of theme with the donut shops in your tangerine, which is no longer a donut shop.

Sean Baker 47:48
I think it still is it did change

Alex Ferrari 47:51
And they change it because last time I drove by it was closed and then

Sean Baker 47:54
When did you buy it like a year ago? Oh, no, no, no, open its tray. Whoa,

Alex Ferrari 48:01
Oh, Trados donuts? That's right. That's right. Yeah, yeah, that Danny did something there.

Sean Baker 48:06
Yeah. So um, you know, I am going to disappoint you now because I wish I could tell you that the that doughnut hole was written in the script, but it was actually something found during pre production and worked into the movie, we had written it for a food truck outside of the refineries that strawberry would be working at. But when Alex cocoa one of my great producers, and I were driving past donut hole and groves, Texas, which is right next to Port Arthur, we saw this, we saw this incredible donut shop called donut hole with like, right next to the refineries with the perfect colors and this great parking lot. And, and, and this, this little wink that it does to one of my previous films, and maybe even the sexual connotations that come from, you know, the doughnut hole. Exactly. Everything seemed to work so wonderfully that we were like, This is a gift from the film gods and we better accept it.

Alex Ferrari 49:07
That's awesome. Now I'm gonna ask you a few questions ask all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Sean Baker 49:13
Yeah, it's a very, you know, I It's it the the industry is changing all the time, and right in front of our eyes. So it's so hard to the advice that I would have given maybe even five years ago has changed it. It really you have to decide on what you want to do. Number one, do you want to make feature films? Do you want to make a series Do you want to you know, there are different ways there. There's so many different avenues these days, web series, etc, etc. But I think what's important is just to get started is just to get going in some way or another work in some aspect of the industry. I mean, for a long time. I was doing everything I could do work doing corporate videos, editing wedding videos, just so that I could actually have practice. And at the time, yeah, you're beating yourself up saying, Oh, wow, this is I feel like I'm so isolated outside the industry, but But you are practicing your craft. And that's very important to keep practicing your craft. And then also, don't wait. That's another thing, that's the biggest thing for me, if you're gonna make a feature, don't wait, you know, meaning the tools are there. Now to do it, you can pick up your iPhone, you can shoot a film, you can edit it around at home on premiere, and you can present it to the world and see whether the world accepts it. Yeah, you may want a $50 million budget, but let's be realistic, that's not going to come right away, you're gonna have to build to that. And I and I always remember my a friend of mine, from way back in the 90s said, I don't want to make my first feature until you know, I have the $20 million to do it. Right. And unfortunately, that guy still hasn't made a film. And that's that that always is like, you know, I had to make these scrappy little movies. You know, my first film tiny little thing I shot my second film takeout that I co director was shooting. So we made that for $3,000 on a mini on mini DV. And, you know, that's being you know, that that's now? Well, it's being restored and put out into the world next year again, and so, you know, so yeah, yeah, it can be done. Just do it and do it. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 51:32
Just Just go basically just just be Nike, just go do it. That now um, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Sean Baker 51:43
Oh, gosh, I think one thing that I'm still learning is just that Carpe Diem, or, you know, just live in the moment, to appreciate the moment to be full of gratitude, you know, as human beings where we sometimes, you know, fall into the pity party thing we sometimes like, compare ourselves to other we always compare ourselves to others we have MB. But you know, you know, I, I'm, I feel that, you know, it's taken me a while, but I just want to like live in the moment and appreciate it and be happy about you know, where you are, I think that that's an important thing. And it's something I'm yeah, I hope I answered that.

Alex Ferrari 52:22
Perfectly fine. That was great. And three of your favorite films of all time.

Sean Baker 52:27
Oh, you know, it changes all the time. Sure. My top three but uh, but I I always look at Lars von Trier as the idiots which was like, I think dogma number two, as something that just is inspired me so much and continues to inspire me. So the idiots Harold and Maude, I think you can see Harold and Maude over Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And then just how Ashby in general in my films. And then, um, Chang Dong Lee's Oasis is such an incredible film that's underrated because a lot of people know Chang Dong Lee's films he made after Oasis, but I think people should go back and, and watch oasis. It's such a bold film that would never be made in this country at this time. And yet, I think is a necessary film and a film that really is profound. So So Chengdong Lee's oasis.

Alex Ferrari 53:22
And where can people see your film? And when is it coming up?

Sean Baker 53:25
Well, thank you for asking. A24. Is is is starting a limited run on the 10th of December so it'll open up in New York and Los Angeles on the 10th in a few select theaters, and then the next weekend, start to roll out into other cities. So you know, I would just say check a 20 fours website and Check local listings but it just let you know though, it's a it's a it's a an exclusive theatrical run, which I'm so happy about and so thankful to a 24 for allowing this in a day when you know there's a lot of day end dates and a lot of you know a lot of streaming titles that are just going directly to home video. This is what we shot this for the big screen is as you can tell we really wanted this to we I know it looks great on the big screen because I got to see it at the new Beverly last night on 35 millimeter and and so I hope people you know if they feel comfortable and you know if they feel safe to go to the theater see it on the big screen and it I think you know and yeah, that's all guy but I truly I truly hope people are able to see this on that big screen.

Alex Ferrari 54:43
And I second that because I did see it on the big screen and it is it is like for 16 millimeter film is part one of the more epic epically shot 16 millimeter film even super 16 but 16 millimeter films I've ever seen, especially projected is gore. It's absolutely stunning and gorgeous to look at. And you really do feel like you're there. So, Shawn, I truly appreciate you being on the show. I wish you nothing but continued success. I'm sure the film's gonna do very well. I hope Simon gets that Oscar nod. Because God, wouldn't that be amazing if he did.

Unknown Speaker 55:17
But we're even in the discussion is like, when the very fact that we even made this film is a win for us. I remember when we were going to can it was like we already won just by being here. So we're in a very good place, and however it plays out. It's this gravy at this point.

Alex Ferrari 55:33
Yeah, congrats, my friend. You're welcome back at any time for any of your feature films. So I do appreciate you. And thank you for all the inspiration that you've given filmmakers around the world because I hear constantly Well, you know, Shaun Baker did tangerine. And I mean, you could just grab an iPhone, I hear that every day. And it's and it's so there's a lot of inspiration you put out there. So even though while you're doing your work, you are inspiring another generation of filmmakers out there. So thank you again for all you do my friend.

Sean Baker 55:59
That's nice to hear. Thank you very much.

Alex Ferrari 56:02
I want to thank Sean so much for coming on the show and dropping his knowledge bombs on the tribe today. Thank you so much, Sean, not for just coming on the show. But for the continued inspiration you give the entire independent film community. Thank you again, sir. If you want to check out his new film Red Rocket it is opening in theaters today, December 10. Exclusively my answer will not be available anywhere online until after the new year. So I implore you guys if you want to check out an amazing independent film, and now you know the backstory of how it was made, check out red rocket. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, including links to tickets to go see red rocket head over to the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com/531. And if you haven't already, please head over to filmmaking.podcast.com SUBSCRIBE and leave a good review for the show. It really helps us out a lot. Thank you again so much for listening, guys. As always, keep that hustle going. keep that dream alive. Stay safe out there. And I'll talk to you soon.

 

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