YouTube Audio Library – Get Royalty-Free Tracks for Your Films

“Royalty-Free” doesn’t mean it’s free music for you to download and do with it as you please. It just means you don’t pay any royalty fees. Let me explain, once you purchase the track of music, you can use it in a Vimeo or YouTube video, usually once, and you don’t have to pay anything else regardless on how many times the video is seen, 10 times or 1,000,000 times, it doesn’t matter. You pay a one-time flat fee and you are good.

Today you have so many choices for free royalty-free music. The YouTube Audio Library has thousands of songs (provided as 320 Kbps MP3 files) you can use in your videos, films, shorts, and productions at no charge.

These tracks can also be used in commercial video productions, films, and shorts. For some more details on that click here:

  • Attributing your video: If you see an attribution-required icon next to a track, make sure to credit the original artist in your video description. Learn more about attribution on the Creative Commons website.
  • Monetizing your video: You can monetize your video since free music isn’t claimed through Content ID. If you’re prompted to show that you have commercial use rights to the music, just make sure to include the music’s exact title and that you downloaded it from the YouTube Audio Library. Learn more about supplying documentation to claim rights.

To gain access to the YouTube Audio Library, head on over to the YouTube Audio Library.

SHORTCODE - SOUND FX

Need Sound Effects for your short or feature film project?

Download 2000+ sound effects designed for indie filmmakers & their projects for free.

Here are some other amazing resources for royalty-free music:

Free Music Archive

The Free Music Archive is an interactive library of high-quality, legal audio downloads directed by WFMU, the most renowned freeform radio station in America. Radio has always offered the public free access to new music. The Free Music Archive is a continuation of that purpose, designed for the age of the internet. It was launched in 2009.

Every MP3 you discover on The Free Music Archive is pre-cleared for certain types of uses that would otherwise be prohibited by copyright laws that were not designed for the digital era. These uses vary and are determined by the rights-holders themselves (please see our FAQ) who feel that allowing a degree of free cultural access is beneficial not only to their own pursuits but to our society as a whole. The Free Music Archive is a resource for audiophiles of all stripes, and unlike other websites, all of the audio has been hand-picked by one of our established audio curators.

http://freemusicarchive.org


Moby Gratis

This site is a resource for independent and non-profit filmmakers, film students, and anyone in need of free music for their independent, non-profit film, video, or short.

Moby has made a selection of over 150 tracks from his huge catalog of music available to license for free, via a simple online application system.

http://www.mobygratis.com

IFH 474: How to Protect Your Film from Online Piracy with Evan Zeisel


Right-click here to download the MP3

Movie piracy has hurt the pockets of every filmmaker. But indie filmmakers are often affected worse. Today on the show we have Evan Zeisel and he has been systematically tracking down piracy sites for years. 

Ten years ago, Evan made his first feature film and landed a distributor. Within a week of being on its first VOD site, his film was already popping up on numerous piracy sites.  He quickly learned through rigorous research to combat piracy and copyright infringement through the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, of 1998.

Basically, the DMCA instrument protects copyright holders from piracy or infringement and it protects the First Amendment of users who, unknowing of the illegality, uses copyrighted contents online for commercial purposes. 

How do you counter online piracy and what is the DMCA?

The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) is a U.S. law enacted in 1998 in an effort to combat piracy while also protecting freedom of speech. The pitfall of the DMCA is that in order to “protect” free speech, it notes that any content put online is considered not to be copyright infringement unless the copyright holder, or representative thereof, directly informs the site or the individual who posted the content that the content is indeed copyrighted.

After being informed, the site has “a reasonable amount of time” (deemed 48-72 hours, by de facto enforcement by the courts) to remove the content before it is considered to be an illegal act. What this means is that a content creator needs to find every occurrence of infringement on the Internet and then find the site’s contact information, or Web Host/ISP’s contact information, and send a very specifically formatted letter (as defined by the DMCA) to that contact, before it will ever be considered needed to be taken down.

Once received, if the content is not removed, then the content creator can use the Violation Notice sent, and a screenshot of the piracy, as a basis for legal action. The issue is, attorneys cost money and there is an endless number of sites pirating content, so for the standard copyright holder taking legal action would be a Sisyphean act, costing them endless time and money, only to run up against pirates that hide behind fake email addresses and false contact information. A lot has changed in the computer and Internet world in the last 20+ years since the DMCA was enacted.

Evan dissects in this interview the technicalities in reclaiming copyright, contacting violators, the language, or must-mentions required by the act. 

Evan tackles the mechanical challenges of tracking down his contents on piracy sites through an automated system, Copyright Slap, curated with help from a friend of his with a coding background, to efficiently contact these sites and have contents taken down in seconds. To date, they have identified the 1946 sites and taken down 6212.

Every filmmaker, big and small deals with online piracy. Hopefully, this episode can help.

Enjoy my conversation with Evan Zeisel.

Alex Ferrari 0:09
I'd like to welcome the show Evan Zeisel, man, how you doing?

Evan Zeisel 0:14
I'm doing great. I'm doing great. Thank you for having me.

Alex Ferrari 0:17
Thanks for coming on the show man. We're going to talk about piracy and copyright infringement and all sorts of sexy beautiful, cool stuff that filmmakers love to talk about. but

Evan Zeisel 0:29
Johnny Depp being on the internet pretty much right exactly,

Alex Ferrari 0:33
exactly. It's a really I mean, it's it's it's one step above financial breakdowns for for feature films, no, but it's so much fun. But the bottom line is it is something that's affecting so many filmmakers not just the Avengers and Game of Thrones, but also

Evan Zeisel 0:53
a lot of money and cant afford

Alex Ferrari 0:55
can't afford to right exactly but then the Indies like myself like I had my my film pirated I think 11 hours after it got put up on on online that was already on the pirated board. It was like that's

that's pretty fast. I mind just took under a week.

Yeah. mine was 11 hours I counted. I was like, holy cow. So I did a whole episode. I'm like, this is what happened to my film and,

Evan Zeisel 1:20
and there are fake ones too. They're amazing. They're fake ones that pop up on films that are in festivals that are just up on IMDB, and they pull from IMDb, the the name and the description and everything they and then they say, you know, click to watch. And then you have to get all description to watch. But it's all about, it's all about the traffic for them. It's about the actual watching of the film, they just want either the ads or the person to show up to the site so they can add malware to their system and then you know, sell that or they've got these weird click through things. I mean, it's so many will get they make their money. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:58
yeah, I want to get into the the whole piracy business as well. But first of all, how did you a mild mannered filmmaker? You know, the Clark Kent a filmmaker? So how did you get into the copyright? You know, piracy game, like how to protect filmmakers from copyright piracy?

Evan Zeisel 2:15
I feel like, I feel like we all as filmmakers start off as I would say, instead of Clark Campbell, go young Bruce Wayne. Even better, even better. And then somebody comes in and murders our parents in front of us. And then guess what Batman shows up. And then Batman is never gonna leave. And Batman gets angry and Batman tracks people down. But yeah, I sort of the story of every indie filmmaker, I did my first feature film about 10 years ago now. And we, you know, my two festivals, got a distributor. And then within a week of going online, I think we started on back in the day when Apple TV was the big thing. We started on Apple TV, but then went to all the other ones. But yeah, within a week of being on our first subscription video on demand, or add whatever, I guess it is a VOD site. I we started popping up on all these piracy sites, and they had to film in with modern technology. You know, people just record though somebody rented it once and then recorded the whole thing. So it's pristine quality. And instead of people going to our site, or even when it's on amazon prime, it's free to watch. So but we get money when people watch it. But when they go to other sites, it's there. And so I was like, Well, I'm gonna stop this. So I did my research and sort of the positives and negatives of the copyright world, especially online. Because it all goes through this. This law, this US law called the DMCA, which stands for the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which was enacted in 1998. To give you a reference for how old it is. Back Back when people were on. AOL, AOL. Sure,

Alex Ferrari 4:02
right. compuserve sir, compuserve, sir,

Evan Zeisel 4:05
yes, exactly. So, you know, as created then, and it's got this sort of double sided blade. So on one side, it is meant to protect copyright holders from their works being stolen. On the other side, it is meant to respect the First Amendment and to protect people who don't realize what they're doing. Unfortunately, that opens up the door for people to essentially run amok. And what the what the DMCA says is, if you put somebody's copyrighted items online, and you don't know it's copyrighted, and it is not illegal, until the copyright holder contacts you and says, hey, that's mine. That's illegal. If you use it for commercial purposes, then they can say you know, okay, you've, you've used it to so now you owe me for that benefit. But Until you're contacted by the copyright holder, it is not illegal. And so what happens is these piracy sites, put them online, and then you as the copyright holder, have to track them down, and then figure out how to contact them, and then send a very specifically worded document that matches what it says in the Digital Millennium Copyright Act to them. And then when they receive it, they have to quote, the DMCA, a reasonable amount of time, which the court has deemed, I think, between 48 and 72 hours to comply. And if they don't take it down, then they are in violation of law. But essentially, when I was seeing I spending, I don't know two hours a day finding sites, looking and finding the contact info filling out this form, emailing it to them. And then, you know, usually they take it down because they don't care about my film, they just care about people coming. And we got to, but I was doing two hours a day, and I burned out. I mean, as you know, as indie filmmakers are not, we don't have the Warner Brothers army of attorneys, we don't, we're often small, if not individual, kind of productions. And it's just overwhelming. And I think that's one of the things that sort of the pirates bank on. And so I with no coding knowledge, contacted a college friend of mine who's in it, and I was like, Hey, I got this idea. Let's Let's help indie filmmakers, like fight this thing that screws them. It's mainly focused on these, you know, the Avengers, the the big budget films that make all their money in the theaters, or make them on, you know, their HBO, Max's or whatever, and it doesn't hurt their bottom line. But, you know, I remember calculating at one point, if I got a 99 cents, actually, I think I calculated if I got like, 50 cents for every view, I would have made back the entire budget easily in the first year, if and, and had excess. But, you know, you go to these sites and people like, Oh, I don't want to pay, and they just and they watch, and they've got more and more advanced. So they look like a Netflix, they look like a professional site until you sort of delve into them. But the normal user isn't going to delve into them. They go Oh, this looks awesome. I can watch this for free. And so yeah, so we so my friend and I, we created copyrights lab comm that essentially, automates the process, so that it's so much faster to do so that we can send you know, hundreds of these takedowns in seconds. So that producers don't get overwhelmed.

Alex Ferrari 7:45
So, okay, so the when you're when you're doing copyright infringement, so like, there's that we're it's a gray area, and it seems like the the the pressure is on the copyright holder, not the pirate or the person who just doesn't know any better yet, because

Evan Zeisel 8:04
there's there's people who upload to YouTube, you know, the Avengers, the entire movie, because well, yeah, and will you run into? And so one of the things that balances out is this idea of fair use versus copyright infringement, which I was looking for. Yeah, yeah. And so fair use is if you use a piece of copyrighted material, but it's either I believe, transformative, or it's used for commentary. Yeah, or for kind of reporting.

Alex Ferrari 8:37
Reporting I think edge is educational even in there.

Evan Zeisel 8:40
Yeah, I think educational I think educational. Yeah. Is is one of the big ones in there. And that allows you to to use it but you can't upload an entire film because it

Alex Ferrari 8:52
just put a commentary on it. Yeah, like that's

Evan Zeisel 8:54
not but you know, you know, the ones that the YouTube channels that do the breakdown of the films, right, and sort of like Well, this was wrong, this was wrong, this was wrong. They're not using the whole film. They're using clips and they're talking specifically about it and it's not people are watching that video not to watch the film they're watching it to watch that video that is the commentary

Alex Ferrari 9:14
right and then they actually in YouTube is become very ridiculous about it now where now these copyright holders like Warner Brothers and stuff like that they'll just start they just blanketed go after anybody that even has a second of Avengers and one of these talking points that's no one's talking over. Because I've gotten hit with that we have a series on on an indie film hustle that's it's called the director series which is it's a commentary series about breaking down famous directors and their work and I've been hit with that constantly. I'm like dude, it's it's completely fair use but then the big boys will start pushing back on you and just like what we don't care.

Evan Zeisel 9:50
If you want to be you have technically you have the law on your side there. I'm so I am a big supporter of protecting those who have the cops Right, and then not getting screwed out of earnings. But I also believe fair use is fair use. And there are times and places for that that are appropriate. And one of the things that we we sort of say to our our users is, know the difference between copyright infringement and fair use. If somebody is doing a commentary on your film, people gonna watch that and then watch your film. Like, you want that that's a positive thing. It's, it's kind of goes to the, you know, the Disney copyright thing related to cosplay, where they used to, I don't know, if they still do, but they, they don't allow people to dress up because they don't want the name, you know, injured or whatever. And at the same time, if you think about it, everybody watching these cosplay, people are like, Oh, yeah, I love that film. I'm gonna go rewatch it. It's free advertising. And it's, and YouTube is only started doing that, because they've been losing lawsuits. They would they don't do it on their own until they're pushed, it's it's all about the money.

Alex Ferrari 11:01
It's always it seems to be always about the money. But that's this, as as they say, a tail is all this time.

Evan Zeisel 11:08
I mean, that's, it's both sides at the boat, the piracy is not about them actually caring about your film, it's them making money, and YouTube, they make their ad sales, regardless of if it's a copyright infringement or not. until some giant copyright holders start suing,

Alex Ferrari 11:26
when then that's the thing was that before before the internet, it was just DVDs. And people would just burn out DVDs or burn out VHS is or copy and then sell them on the street. And it was a lot harder to kind of break that down. But it also was a very limited amount, like you weren't losing. It's not like well, in China, they do that still. And you know, it's insane. But ever since the internet showed up now, it's like, few hours later, it's around the world and you're done. It's a second it hits so that's why like all these big movies are hitting HBO max right now. You know, I mean, Godzilla versus King Kong, which is a quote unquote theatrical release. That's that's been pirated moment it hit the online. Oh, yeah. It's gone. It's like,

Evan Zeisel 12:09
I mean, I remember. I remember back in the day, well, remember back in the day, the handheld videos in the theater. Oh, my Seinfeld. Down in

Alex Ferrari 12:18
town, there was like, there was like a Seinfeld episode where Jerry accidentally became like, the ultimate bootlegging a tour, and he would just like, you know, it's like how he shot it and everything. Yeah, and those are Riddick Yeah, you just see, do you see people get up in the scene and

Evan Zeisel 12:33
walk around, but those are still those are still available, those are still being done in other cities in other countries. And then I mean, but now unfortunately, with with modern technology and computer

Alex Ferrari 12:45
a lot easier, you can

Evan Zeisel 12:46
just screen record, and it's a perfect copy. Unfortunately, I'm not. I'm not telling anybody anything they don't know. Sure not telling pirates how to do the job. But it's, it's easy, and, and really annoying, because at least when there's somebody standing in the way, the viewers like, okay, maybe this isn't legit. Or maybe, maybe I'll buy the real thing.

Alex Ferrari 13:07
But the thing is, I think one of the things that I found that piracy, what the studios have done, and I think independent filmmakers need to do as well is they've made it so easy to consume the content, that it's harder now to go out and bootleg something for the for the most part, like go in scope, find the file, download the file, get that file to play either on your computer or try to figure out a way to play it out on your TV. there's a there's a technical process there. Most everyday people aren't going to this is just my my opinion.

Evan Zeisel 13:44
Yeah, I'm biting my tongue on this one. What do you think? I think on certain things, and I don't want to tell people how to hire it. Of course movies. Yeah, I mean, you're sort of talking about torrents which are one of the aspects of it. But these days, unfortunately, this streaming websites,

Alex Ferrari 14:02
oh, yeah, I saw my movie. Oh, yeah, I saw a movie there's

Evan Zeisel 14:06
my partner will kill me. So when I, when I sort of say this, so I'm going to be very careful of how I say there are three levels to piracy. The first one is streaming content, which is the most easily accessible. The second level is torrents, which is the second level of accessibility. And then there's a third one, which I'm not allowed to talk about, because it is very hard to access, but many hackers are the ones who access it. And so if I bring that up, I get in trouble.

Alex Ferrari 14:34
So Fair enough, but what i mean but there's

Evan Zeisel 14:38
so there's nothing returns, I think the the torrents, you know, it takes a little bit of know how to do but to go online and just search for a movie, unfortunately, is really easy, and it'll pop up a lot of sites. I know Google just recently because of a lawsuit change their search engine so they should the illegal sites show up less

Alex Ferrari 15:00
Because before you could literally just Google and you know, you googled My name of my movie, and boom, there's some site and the Malaysia pops up. And it's like with my poster with all my IMDb information in there. And then I press play. I'm like, Are you kidding me? Like it's there. I'm like, I'm honored that you thought of my little film, but it's it was just pretty eye opening. I was like, wow, like I get Avengers I get Game of Thrones, I get that that's there's big there's big numbers big people are interested in but like to go after the Indies? Like it really

Evan Zeisel 15:36
so the thing is the the streaming slash online piracy industry is a multi billion dollar industry. It's not a multi $100,000 it's not a couple million. It's a multi billion dollar industry, because they've got so many different ways to make money when people show up so that all they care about is traffic.

Alex Ferrari 15:59
So how so how do you make how what's the business? The piracy business model piracy business?

Evan Zeisel 16:05
So there's, there's a bunch of different approaches. So one, there's the subscription model, they but it's, uh, you know, the thing they say is like, pay $10. And you get every movie ever. Right?

Alex Ferrari 16:22
per month. And it's illegally, but obviously, those servers are not here in the us there.

Evan Zeisel 16:27
Yeah, well, they're Yeah, they're not. It's not illegal at all. Yeah. Yeah. Like people don't, but they set them up. So it looks like a Netflix. It looks like a Hulu. So it's so professional. The average, you know, person who's searching online for movies doesn't know. So so one route is the subscription. Second route is Google ads, right? The more traffic, the more ads are worth on sites. So if they can get a millions of people to come by their web website every day, then the ads that they are posted making money that are posting on their site are worth more.

Alex Ferrari 17:09
So there's How is Google allowing us?

Evan Zeisel 17:12
Yeah, how is Google allowing this? Because Google doesn't have a no fly list for websites.

Alex Ferrari 17:18
And even then, if you if you close 115 pop up in its place. Yeah.

Evan Zeisel 17:22
Yeah. And then there's a tangent on the the Google Ads one, which I find really interesting. And I only know about because I had sort of a tutorial shown to me by one of the sort of copyright alliances, that's also helping fight this. And what what happens is you go to a website, and in the background, another window automatically is opened up without you knowing it, Randy, it scrolls up and down. And then a little pointer comes and clicks on an ad. And so it looks like you're browsing the site. And clicking through an ad, which is higher dollar pay to the west, is click throughs are more than just traffic. So they have that. And then there is the the sort of last route, which a lot of people unless you have a virus software on your system, that's pretty good. Then you go to any of these piracy sites. The last one is malware. So the sites also try and put malware on your system while you're watching. When you go, oh, click to view Yes, you click which is also an acceptance of whatever permissions, they add a little Trojan horse, you know, backdoor thing on your computer, and then they sell in bulk bundles of essentially zombie computers, to nefarious people who want to use them. And that's one way that you know, these people can do what is it a DD? DDoS. The when you brute force attack? Yeah. Oh, yeah, a website with a lot of different computers at once. Essentially, they're buying these packages of all these computers that people don't know. And it's very small. That's, you know, that's happening in the background so that people don't even know their computers are being used. And they can make money off of that. Yeah, that's so and so if you look at how they make their money, the actual content doesn't matter. Oh, no, the people to the site. So they go, they go, Oh, I've created a bot that can scrape all of IMDb. And then it finds if they find one thing, one version of the movie, put it up and boom.

Alex Ferrari 19:36
Done. Done guy. And this and this same system goes with any kind of content, whether it's piracy of software, piracy of music, piracy of porn, porn, any anything that people are interested in to download, or watch the it's just so movies are just one of many forms of media that are being being used for this business model.

Evan Zeisel 20:00
Just just like to say if anybody's in the porn industry listening, porn is also a movie. So that is not a separate category, you are a filmmaker to

Alex Ferrari 20:10
just a very particular sub genre. It's a it's a very particular sub genre. So so much of a sub genre in a deeper voice for this, we should be talking. There should be it's a very particular sub genre. But yeah, oh, I think a pizza a pizza man just knocked on my door. Give me a second. No choice.

Evan Zeisel 20:31
But actually, piracy online piracy is a big issue for the porn industry. Oh, she says, Yeah, you know, again, they make a lot of their money on either I believe subscription services for like a porn star or their particular production company, or coming to their specific site, and they make the content for their site, right? I mean, it's kind of like a social media influencer, you gain by people coming to your site and you or your your page or handle whatever, with I think a lot of porn sites, it's going to those sites and viewing the content because they make their money, quote, unquote, legitimately via Google ad sales or things like that, but they, you know, probably particularize their content for their, the niche group that is going to those sites. But when it's when it's pulled away, there's just another piracy come to the site.

Alex Ferrari 21:26
So let me ask you a question. What is the actual effect of online piracy to an independent filmmaker? Like, I mean, look, with the people that were watching it on a pirated site actually ever? Like, were they really ever gonna be a customer? Is the question I'm asking.

Evan Zeisel 21:41
That's a that is a very good question. And one I have thought about a lot and I think is always asked, and I think there are tears, right? There's the people who will never pay for anything. And those people might not go to watch content. However, if that content is on YouTube with ads, if that content is on amazon prime, to gone too big to be TV, you know, a Roku channel, the IMDb TV is coming out, and it has, you know, ad based content that's free to watch. So would they go to those which are also free? The, then there are those that it's easy to find a search online, if it if the first one was a to b TV, you know, Amazon Prime, they click it, but it's not. So the idea essentially, is if you can whack a mole enough of these sites, so that your your main content that you want people to go to is on that first search page or the first or second search page, the chances that somebody is going to click one of those, you know, a VOD ad based video on demand streaming sites, which they don't have to pay for. But you do make money off of that percentage chance of them clicking on that goes up dramatically. I mean, yeah. How much? That is a good question. So I think I think the number of people who watch online is an insane number. I had some statistics, I think, well,

Alex Ferrari 23:15
I remember, well, I don't mean to cut you off. I remember when Game of Thrones was which was the number one pirated? Show, I think history in history, I think ever, something like that. But it was one year specifically that it just dominated. And the producers of the show said publicly that they're very thankful for the piracy because it wouldn't have been as popular of a show without the piracy. And so many people would either pirate a season or two. And then to get the latest thing instead of pirates pirating each episode, they just went ahead and got a subscription to HBO Go or whatever it was, at the time, that he said it was extremely, it was extremely helpful to building the brand because so many people bootlegged it, and so many people watched it that at the end of the day, it actually helped them now again, that's a very specific case. I'm not saying copy, you know, piracy. So here's,

Evan Zeisel 24:11
here's my, my, my asterisk if we're gonna Barry Bonds it Yeah. My asterisks is HBO makes a lot of money on merchandise. That Yeah, thrones makes a lot of money on merchandise that their bottom line is, the more people they get to watch, the more people are you gonna buy the shirts, hats, what dragon a mug or the, you know, whatever, that they make a lot of money on that. So part of their pitch is get the most number of eyes. Yeah, hbos and hbos model has very often been and they've sort of figured it out in a nice in a smart way. If it's not about the greater audience. It's about a niche audience and if we can get a viewer who says I got to see this show It's nowhere else really, other than I mean, it gets on piracy, but they want to see it in the moment, then they can do it. And they'll get some swag for that. But I've also I mean, back in the day, I remember talking to a friend, and I think I was watching Game of Thrones. And, you know, they were in another country, and wasn't as easily accessible. And I was like, oh, did you see that episode? Like, oh, we're, you know, we're 10 minutes behind because we got to watch it on a piracy site. I was like, you know, they're recording. They're like, Oh, it was long and putting it online, pretty much immediately.

Alex Ferrari 25:35
Yeah. And that's, and that's another thing as well, that I've mentioned, I mentioned that in my book, and I mentioned it elsewhere that if you can use your movie as a lead generator for other revenue streams, the actual exploitation of the film is not the business. That's not the main business. Because all the studios have done that Disney's main business is not making movies. It's everything else that they have in their ecosystem. It's now HBO and Warner Brothers is kind of picking up on that Disney is still the king of that their system is so interesting. They're their foundation and infrastructure is so well put together that i think i think it's Disney Warner Brothers and maybe universal and I think that's pretty much it. Then the other guys are still trying to catch up Paramount still trying to catch up. They don't they don't have the infrastructure that Disney does. But you know, sure they make the big ones like oh, you made a billion dollars off or $2 billion off of Avengers or whatever the hell it was. That's nice money. But it's nothing compared to what they sell in March. It's nothing to compare it's nothing compared to the the parks rides and all the millions of other things that they sell. My buddy worked at Disney as an animator and they brought him in brought his the whole team in to tell them how they made their money. And they said frozen Okay, which made a billion dollars at the box office. A billion dollars at the box office. The dresses the Anna in what's your name is a lot of what I forgot her name also. Thank you. Elsa, how dare you? How dare me I know. I'm sorry. Elsa, and Anna's dresses alone. The ones that my daughter bots my daughter's brought like seven times because they kept growing and breaking and ripping them off because it won't take them off a billion on the dresses alone.

Evan Zeisel 27:22
Oh, I bet I bet there's some some digital dress that you can buy on some game that an address or an address that they've also made a billion dollars off of that and it costs just the coding. I mean to to make a nod to that little guy over your shoulder.

Alex Ferrari 27:39
I miss Yoda Yes.

Evan Zeisel 27:40
I mean Star Wars and Lucas were the first to do it. It was he said you know, it's not about it's not about merchandising, it's less boxes. That's I mean, that's what a Mel Brooks in spaceball society, right?

Alex Ferrari 27:54
Oh, you want to come to the you know, he has the whole thing and it's because that's the truth. Spaceballs the flame thrower. I still want to still want flame still wants baseballs a flame thrower. It's for the kids. They love it. You know the deal. Do you know what the deal was with Spaceballs? How George Lucas gave them rights to do it? Because he asked. Do you know the whole story? No. I'm here. On a side note, everybody. So Spaceballs? If you haven't seen his baseball, go watch baseball, because it's amazing. But he called George Lucas and like, I'm gonna make this parody film on on Star Wars, and I don't want to get sued. So what do we need to do here? Because he could arguably make it but he goes, you can make it, but you can't sell any merchandise. That's why you can't you never see Spaceballs merchandise anywhere. And that's that was the deal. So that's why you and that he completely made a joke of it. Because all those cool things that you saw in the movie that all that merge I would have wouldn't have killed against. I think there's some stuff now that comes out every I'm sure I'm sure if I look on Etsy I could find Oh, you could find something but no mass, no mass at the time of the year searching Etsy for. I'm sure somebody has made this baseball flame thrower. Oh, I can only get it if it's attached to a drone. Obviously, you know how that goes. Alright, so with Oh, so we've obviously told everybody The world is coming to an end. We'll never make any money online anymore.

Evan Zeisel 29:13
I get all the way. So no, but I do. I do agree. Wait, I want to just want to just want to pause and just jump back to something that you said, which was talking about the bigger industry but I also think it applies to indie filmmakers, where the easier you make it for users or audience to view your content, yes, the more audience you're going to get. Yes. And and so I you know, I initially was not the biggest fan of sort of ad based video on demand because you get paid pennies. However, the amount of people who watch that because they don't want to spend you know $5 $10 299 for something that if you can get them to those free sites. That's how the indie filmmakers I think I'm going to make the money. And as you said, sort of leveraging, right, leveraging one film to make the next one. And so in that, that's, that's one of the things, the goal of corporate slap was is to sort of play whack a mole and make it much easier to to whack that mole. If anybody knows that game. If not, then I'm just making really weird

Alex Ferrari 30:22
references.

Evan Zeisel 30:24
But but to sort of send out as many DMCA violation notices as easy as possible to get these things taken down.

Alex Ferrari 30:33
If this is this, so this is the counter, this is how you counter online piracy. He's just sending out these notices. But do they actually take them down? So so there's,

Evan Zeisel 30:43
we are running statistics, but we'd say about 60%, if not a little bit more, take them down. As soon as they get it. Now, will they put it up the next week, we don't have the numbers on that. But they will take it down pretty easily because they don't care. Literally, it's more hassle to them to potentially deal with somebody bothering them than to just comply. And they know they got to get they put it up again a week or two weeks or a month later than that has to be found and it has to happen, but then they can take it down again. And so how it works is Yeah, you get the DMCA violation. Notice now, as you sort of said at the beginning of this podcast, depends what the server is, though, because the DMCA is a US law. However, there are many international treaties that then relate to copyright. And so a lot of countries respected, some don't and are super annoying. I won't name those countries, but they're like, if you have, you know, a two signatures by a notary and you have a court document, then we'll consider taking it down. Like, uh huh, well, don't worry, because governors app also sends all these sites to the intellectual property division of the United States of defense. So yeah, well, you just talk to them. Exactly. But yeah, so you have that if they do take it down, great. If they don't take it down, then technically, if you as a copyright holder have a copyright for the for the piece. So this is this is one sort of aspect of the law, you cannot sue for copyright infringement unless you have a copyright on the the item that you are you want to you want to take legal action on. Now you do own the copyright, but to take legal action, it needs to be copyright registered, and we do need to read registered. Yeah. Which is, you know, $20 it's

Alex Ferrari 32:40
3035. Now, yeah, okay, it's gone up. Back in my day, back in my day was $20. Yeah.

Evan Zeisel 32:49
And by the way, just so everybody knows, in regards to copywriting, when you when you apply for the copyright, you're protected from the moment you've submitted and paid for the thing, because it will take six to eight months to actually get if you're lucky, the actual copyright certificate back. And and on top of it, I believe it's 90 days, I have to verify that. But if you have copyright infringement, if you register the copyright, within 90 days of the infringement, you can still take legal action from something that happened 90 days ago. So a lot of photographers do that. Because photography is get huge piracy online.

Alex Ferrari 33:27
Yeah. And you know, it as far as Paris photography is concerned, like, if you have a DMCA notice and like a man, you're using a photo of mine on your website, take it down. That's pretty much the end of the conversation, right? They know, can they sue you?

Evan Zeisel 33:44
So? Well, here's, here's where it gets interesting with photographers. If a website is using it specifically for commercial value, then you have So essentially, some company, one of the famous ones company is selling skateboards, and a photographer took a picture of a skateboarder. And the company, used the photo, took the photo from Instagram of from that professional photographer, and then essentially made an ad and posted it to Instagram. I was like, yeah, blah, blah, look at our, our, you know, our skates. And just because it had their, you know, skateboarding wheels or board or whatever in it doesn't mean that they have the right to use somebody's photograph. So this person contacted them as like, hey, you're using my content in an ad. So either this is a reasonable amount that you should pay me for that use, or I'm going to sue you. And even if they take it down, they've already used it in an ad they are generating income for a company. Right? So you can see that gives us photographers get a little bit more leverage. It's a little bit harder for in the filmmaking world because it's not really an ad it's content that they're reposting.

Alex Ferrari 34:58
Right, exactly. Yeah. But like If you have but like a lot of news organizations use, you know, blogs use images constantly from

Evan Zeisel 35:05
Yep. anywhere, anywhere. And yeah. And so then you can, you know, DMCA or you can sort of DMCA slash, to have, you know, an attorney friend write a note saying, hey, you use this, we would like to be compensated.

Alex Ferrari 35:18
And then that's when it becomes a question like, is this going to be worth going to court for?

Evan Zeisel 35:22
Yeah, yeah. And so usually you ask for a little less than you might give settlement, and therefore, you have an advantage. So the DMCA says, if somebody is violating your copyright, you can sue for up to $30,000 per occurrence. Yeah, and one of the great things of the COVID-19 relief bill that was passed this past December is something called the case act. And that initiated for the first time in the United States, a small claims copyright court. Now it's, it's in the process of being set up right now. But it essentially allows smaller kind of indie copyright holders to go put forth a claim to I believe it's three, not just judges, three judges, who are, you know, people who Judas g8, this copyright content, and then the defendant can send in documents, and this three judges make a decision, and they can then find in favor of the copyright infringing, the person whose copyright was infringed. And it can be up to $15,000. So one of the biggest hurdles, usually for copyright holders, in going beyond just a simple DMCA violation notice is you have to pay for an attorney, you have to pay a lot of court fees. And so that was hard. So this small claims court sort of opens the door and allows the smaller guy to, to be able to fight against these. Now, the hard The other aspect I'll throw in there is finding who is behind these streaming sites is hard, right, because you got to figure out who you're suing, right. Now, if it's, you know, it's sometimes if you, if you dig into the who is information on a site, somebody is not smart enough to hide the fact that their email address and their and their name and address are the admin email address kind of buried in there, you can, you know, screenshot, keep that and then maybe use it as as an attack. But it's hard because you have to have a lawsuit against somebody to be able to get money, right, you have to figure out where those assets are, and they hide a lot. So one of the other. So that is the hard side of it. One of the other things that we try to do is different is since we care more about Batman style revenge on these pirates, then necessarily making a lot of money. Beyond the fact that we, we we, I guess sell our servers for very inexpensive, we also compile a blacklist of piracy sites that we find from our users interact interactions anonymously, sort of figuring out which ones are just pure piracy sites. And then we take that list and once a month, we send to essentially the internet crimes division of, of the United States and say, Here is a list of the, the sites that we know are illegal, please take action. And they've been known to that. We it's, it's hard to keep track of like if they do anything, but they are open to us sending a file and we give it in a format so they can integrate it into their system very easily. So we sort of are pushing to do things like that, because that'll have more of an impact if we can just take down a whole site.

Alex Ferrari 39:03
Well, of course, because it takes out 10s of 1000s, if not more films that have been put up there. It's it's fascinating. And so, so copyrights lab calm. What's the process? What does filmmakers have to do to use your service and how does it work?

Evan Zeisel 39:19
So it's as simple as we possibly could make it. So yeah, copyright slap.com. And you just go and you register as a user. And then once you've registered, you can initiate a new project, or start a new project project essentially, is your film or we're expanding into books, because online literary piracy is a big thing. Yeah, we're slowly sort of expanding as much as we can to protect different copyright holders. So you register your project and you essentially, we asked you for the specific information needed to fill out a DMCA violation form. As you know the title of the film when it was published the original location of where the film can be found via the film's website. Or the Amazon Prime link or something like that. And then you submit that it saves and you started this new project. And then we run in 30 day cycles, they can click and activate the project. Our normal 30 day cycle is $20, for unlimited number of takedowns. To put that in perspective, one of the reasons I, when I was starting out didn't go to a site like this is, it was essentially our competitors charge, just under $200, I believe it's $199 per single takedown of Jesus Christ. Yeah, there are some that are a little bit less expensive. But then you have to enter all of the information that we asked for once every time and you have to do like jump through a number of hoops. So our goal is like, make it as simple as possible. So for us, it's $20. And then whatever you find online as a URL, that's an infringement, you can just copy and paste that into a forum we have, you hit Enter, and we take care of everything. And then we also keep track of it. And essentially, we have a system where if there's a contact info directly for the website owner, they get a DMCA violation. Notice, if they don't comply, then we escalate it, or allow allow the user to escalate it. And that goes to the online service provider, the person hosting the website, totally sure. And one of our goals is if the website owner may ignore it, but the online service provider doesn't want illegal content on their their server. And there are certain laws that say, if you're aware that somebody is hosting illegal activity, you are not allowed to host them.

Alex Ferrari 41:41
Or you're gonna get your you're liable.

Evan Zeisel 41:46
And there's a so I'm going to add to it, there is a bill sort of coming out or up for discussion, an update to the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. So Senator Tom Tillis, from North Carolina had put forth at the beginning of this year, the end of last year, the digital Copyright Act of 2021. And that is aiming to update the DMCA so that these online service providers can't hide from when they know there's illegal activity, that the loopholes that a lot of places get away with, because the copyright DMCA was written in 1998. Sort of closing those. So it's not as easy for them to hide without it being illegal immediately. And yeah, so we sent Yeah, so we send to the the website, owners, then we send to the the online service providers, sometimes there are multiple. And if so, if there's sort of two levels there, the website owner, sometimes they reply back, and they're like, we took care of it, it's gone. Stop bugging us. And then if they don't, sometimes the service providers go well, we've removed that account. And so then that actually ends up taking down the website, or taking down the the page at least, but not even the website doing it just these the online service providers like we're going to, we're going to remove this entire website if you don't comply with this. So then they comply. And one of the features that we are in the works of adding right now. So this will be dated, hopefully in within the next couple to a few weeks is the ability for if the online service providers don't respond and help get it taken down, that users will be able to send every 30 days violation notices to everybody associated with the website. And the goal of that one is if every 30 if we can be annoying enough that they get enough notices saying they're in violation that they will just take it down to the day. They don't have to deal with the users.

Alex Ferrari 44:02
Interesting. Well, you're you are you are the Batman of Copland. Oh man, I am a you are

Evan Zeisel 44:08
vicious. It makes me angry I'm and the more ways you can we can you know, go and help get them taken down. I just I you know, it's it's when when you see how it impacts your film, right? I mean, these indie when a lot of these anything, straight to straight to video on demand. And it's like you put your sweat and blood into this, and this is your passion and you care so much. And then somebody is going to come and steal it and then they get it for free. And you already are making it free for people like come on. It's enough.

Alex Ferrari 44:41
It's no

Evan Zeisel 44:42
Yeah, well, and they don't need to make their billions of dollars. You just need to be able to make, you know, make your money back and make sure you've paid all of your cast and crew and that they've been happy and that maybe you make up potentially. I mean, fingers crossed. This is not the thing that always happens. Fingers crossed. You make a profit So that you could then put that towards the next film.

Alex Ferrari 45:02
Stop it. Stop. No, you're you're talking. You're talking about crazy talk. It's crazy talk. Crazy Talk. The same book, Ferrari.

Now, is there a you mentioned that might be? Because I was referencing it for commentary? Yes, exactly. Wow. Wow. Let's all sing the Happy Birthday song.

Evan Zeisel 45:29
So it's now legal though that's now legal. Is it legal? Oh, yeah. A couple years ago, it turned out that they, the author of it had released it publicly, like hundreds of like 100 years ago, and they were illegally collecting copyright for it.

Alex Ferrari 45:46
Oh, wow. So now you can use it. Happy Birthday again.

Evan Zeisel 45:49
You can sing Happy Birthday without owing anybody money.

Alex Ferrari 45:52
Jesus Christ. Now, you said earlier, off air that you have a promo code for any indie film hustle tribe members, if they want to get their film. You know, work copyrights use copyright slap to help protect their films online.

Evan Zeisel 46:09
Yeah. So as I said, we we make a very inexpensive, so it's $20 a month, but we created a special indie film, hustle, promo code. So I'm going to tell you that code should be pretty easy for everybody. It is indie film, hustle, all one word, all lowercase. Yeah, that is the promo code. And that's entered when they activate a project. And that will give them three months at 50% of the actual, so $10 a month for three months, and then use three months, you could use it one month, then and you know, stop. And truthfully, if you if you use it for even a single day, you can you can enter and send DMCA violation notices to every single person infringing on your, your site, or your content in that day, because there's no limit, and it's no extra cost, you know, per one we have, we have a number of users who they use it every three months, they sign in for one month, they spend a few days and they enter every single illegal thing and they update, you know, things that haven't been complied with, they escalate. And then they you know, they stopped using it for a couple months, and then come back, you know, three months later and say, Okay, can you use it again? And is another 20 bucks? Let's rock and roll? Yeah. Um, yeah. And it has had an impact with my films in getting them off of streaming sites. And it's, you know, I think it also it depends on the genre of film, and, and also the length of time it's been online, you know, the longer it's been online, if you've been able to squash these sites from adding the content and they've taken it down, then they're less likely to put it back up. But if it's, you know, if it's newer, and they've been there for the last number of years, you know, it's probably already been up and people keep adding it. One thing we have seen is because of the pandemic, and people are at home more know what to say, it's not just, it's not just the action or horror films that are gaining the content, it is. It's sort of everything, everything is up in getting pirated. When we had one person who it was, yeah, a documentary, and they were like, We are seeing so much piracy. I mean, you know, I won't toot our own horn, but it was, you know, we'd love your site, because we can put in so many, you know, takedowns every single day, but like, Is this normal to have this much piracy? And unfortunately, because of the pandemic and sort of the switch over to to people watching a lot, you know, at home. It's up so much. It's I mean, it's also it's also up more on the, on the Amazon Prime's on the to be TVs as well, which is good for filmmakers. It's just frustrating because it's like, Just give me one penny, just give me one penny for every hour you watch. And it'll help

Alex Ferrari 49:04
which is essentially what it which is essentially what amazon prime is paying you for your film on Amazon Prime anymore. And that's a whole other conversation. But there's a lot of there's a lot of ways you can still make money with with your film, especially a VOD is the future. I think that is where a lot of money is being made. Right now. It's the strongest sector for independent filmmakers doing or trying to make money in VOD, because s VOD. If you can get a deal. Great. But that's rare. T VOD is dead. It's essentially almost dead. xtiva. Exactly. transactional like paying 299 I always tell people like t VOD is just a holdover from the blockbuster video store days that's all it is. It's just you're holding it over it's an older concept. And I don't know how you know how do you have any numbers on how these these Disney because I know Disney is like releasing the premium for like 20 bucks a pop or something like that. Like They're going to do that with black widow, like black widow, I think might actually get some money. Like a good amount of people might might pay to see Black Widow cuz it's a Marvel movie. So it's, it's the first real test, because it did it with, you know a couple of Wonder Woman 1984 but that wasn't a paid 1000 paid no, no, that was free. Yeah, that was free. No, I'm talking about like paying 20 bones upfront right away, and the only place you can get it is by paying the 20 bucks for that 30 year 60 day window. I think the Marvel movie will pro and we're so hot like, we're hungry for Marvel.

Evan Zeisel 50:34
I think all the people with their home theaters in there, I do think it's I do think that will be more popular once the once we get over this hurdle of the pandemic where you can actually watch things as groups. You know, like, I'm gonna pay $40. But we got, you know, seven friends over and we're chilling. That works a lot easier than I'm gonna pay $40 and it's me by myself or like, you know, me my significant other, right? It's a little bit harder. Yeah, I mean, I think I don't have any specific numbers. But I know for the HBO Max is they've been pretty happy on their individual releases because it gets people to join the subscription. And usually it's, it's all about getting people to join because maybe their retention rate is 40%. But they got support more than they normally would have. You know,

Alex Ferrari 51:24
know what HBO max with HBO Max is done, man is is is I mean, it's pissed off a lot of filmmakers a lot of big time filmmakers and actors and stuff because they're not getting their normal paydays. But I off. I've got off record on but I can't say who, but the payment that I've heard from people on the inside of these actors, because they all get bonuses based on box office, when that was taken off to like, Look, we're just gonna give you x dollar to just be happy. You could put that

Evan Zeisel 52:00
well. Well, I mean, so yeah, there's, well, there's a number of things. I'm pretty active in the sag after the film and TV radio union. And one of the big gains that they gained in their last TV theatrical negotiations, was they had the foresight to say, Okay, yeah, we're, we're cool with, you know, theatrical, and we and releases, and we, you know, that's important. But we want to talk about streaming and online usage. And that was their big focus, and I think it is going to is paying off a lot better, because that was their shift in, okay, we got to make sure that actors are covered here. And that was before the pandemic. And it was just, you know, that's the trend that things are going I think, I think the movies that will be big for, you know, the releases directly online, like the Black Widow are going to be the same movies that will do well in theaters that you know, you want to see with a, you know, a big screen and surround sound that I mean, I went, I saw, I remember seeing Captain Marvel in the theaters. And in the last 10 minutes, somebody let their kid run up and down the aisles, screaming and I was like, Are you kidding me? Like, I'm here is my movie experience.

Alex Ferrari 53:16
And I paid I paid good money to be here. Oh, no, don't even get me started.

Evan Zeisel 53:19
I mean, I'm like an Alamo Drafthouse. This is not an ad for Alamo Drafthouse. I have no association with them. But the fact of the day at the beginning are like, if you answer a cell phone call, we will kick you out. If you open your cell phone, and we see the screen on, we'll give you a warning, and then we'll kick you out and you don't get your money back. I'm like, Yes. Because it's like, I'm paid pay to be here. And I think, you know, it's it's changing the types of movies do you need to see, you know, a comedy, you know, big screen. But like, you know, end game? Ah,

Alex Ferrari 53:52
I mean, can you Oh, God,

Evan Zeisel 53:54
like avatar back in the, you know, back in the day when that came out? Like I saw avatar in 3d twice just because oh, there's it's an experience. You know, it's a riot. Yeah, you

Alex Ferrari 54:03
can't get that at home. No matter how insane I mean, unless you have literally an IMAX at your house. It really is not. Yeah, I

Evan Zeisel 54:10
mean, I I'm not gonna lie. I've got a I've got a projector. And it's, it's probably set up for a 15 foot diagonal screen. And I've got 5.1 surround sound Well, 5.0 because I removed my subwoofer because of neighbors. You know, I've got like, it's, you know, if I'm watching a movie, I make my own popcorn. We can you know, we can we can chill. There's nobody screaming and it compared to some of the smaller theaters in New York, actually, the screen size might be comparable

Alex Ferrari 54:43
compared and the sound experience might be comparable. Look at the end of the day. I don't think theatrical is ever going to go away completely. I think they'll always go somewhere. Just like like Broadway. Still Broadway. People still pay X amount of money, but I think it's because the price of those tickets are going to go up. It's going to be much more of an experience the days of going to go see You know, a comedy of like Dumb and Dumber at the theater and spending 25 bucks to go see a comedy or even a drama at the theater. Unless you're hardcore cinephile. Most people know what I'm good. I'm good at home.

Evan Zeisel 55:15
Unless the theater industry pivots, if they pivot and everything becomes like the Alamo Drafthouse, how Alamo Drafthouse where there's you know, a restaurant link to it or a bar, you can bring your food and you can bring your drinks and they make money off of the food sales like they do now, except for the you know, the theaters that make money off their food now it's popcorn and candy that's not necessarily for everybody and way overpriced, but if it's reasonably priced, and they're making their money, because people want to come and they want the experience, it's that's a way to keep it going.

Alex Ferrari 55:47
It's gonna keep going. It's gonna keep going anyway, we have veered off the copyright path a bit. It's just now to film geeks talking about the business but anyway, Evan, man, thank you so much for you know, being that night Avenger for copyrights you are, you are the Dark Knight. I appreciate what you're doing man and helping filmmakers out when I when you reached out to me a while ago now. We've been trying to do this interview for a minute. But But when I saw it, I was like, Man, this is so desperately needed. And I want to get the word out on this. So thank you so much for what you do, brother and keep up the good fight my friend.

Evan Zeisel 56:22
Now keep and keep making films. anybody listening? Keep making films. Don't let him keep you down.

Alex Ferrari 56:27
Thanks, man. Thank you

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Quentin Tarantino’s Inglourious Basterds

Director Quentin Tarantino’s seventh feature film, 2009’s INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS, is a very personal film for me, in that various facets of its existence coincided with my own at the time.  I had moved to Los Angeles in the summer of 2008, and my first job was as an intern floater at Lionsgate Entertainment.  During this period, I was assigned to cover reception for weeks at a time, where I developed a strong rapport with the co-receptionist, who has gone on to a successful writing career and has also become a very dear friend and writing partner.  He was always getting his grubby little mitts on high-profile scripts that were typically shielded from public consumption, and one day he slipped me the leaked script for Tarantino’s INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS (I’ll never forget the title as it looked on the cover page, scrawled haphazardly by Tarantino’s own hand).

You can read all of Quentin Tarantino’s Screenplays here.

It was the first time that I got to see this angle of Tarantino’s work—the script itself.  The man had always been hailed as a visionary screenwriter, beginning from his early days when he famously sold the scripts to TRUE ROMANCE and NATURAL BORN KILLERS to Tony Scott and Oliver Stone, respectively.  His talent for dialogue had always been well-known, but this was the first time I got to see it on the page with my own eyes.  It was like having intimate, unrestricted access to Tarantino’s brainwaves, undiluted by the restrictions of production or budget.

My personal connection to INGLORIOUS BASTERDS continued in the wake of the film’s release the next summer.  A few days before, I was killing time browsing the sea of DVDs in Hollywood’s Amoeba Records, oblivious to the surging crowd that was buzzing in the hangar-like space below me.  Then that familiar, manic voice boomed over the PA system.  Tarantino took the stage of the store’s little performance space and began whipping the crowd into a frenzy with his infectious enthusiasm.  I couldn’t believe it—Tarantino had such a formative effect on my filmmaking development and here I was looking at the man himself, in the flesh.  He was just like how he is in interviews, all antsy and motor-mouthin’, even a little sweaty.    I’ve seen very few great directors in person (the others being Gus Van Sant and Ridley Scott), so this was an electrifying moment for me.  Like being nailed by a bolt of lightning.

There’s a third connection that I didn’t even realize I had until today.  The film’s centerpiece sequence, the massacre of Hitler and his top lieutenants, takes place in a French theatre that Tarantino and his production designer, David Wasco, modeled after the Vista in Los Angeles’ Silverlake neighborhood.  The Vista is my favorite theatre in all of LA, which is saying something for a city that boasts veritable film cathedrals like the Arclite and the Cinerama Dome.  The Vista is a small, Art Deco one-screen theatre on an unassuming block in Silverlake, but its marquee signage and the auditorium’s hokey Egyptian design theme are anything but.  It’s an endlessly charming cultural landmark that I love seeing movies in any chance I get. The $6 matinee price doesn’t hurt either.

Tarantino had been gestating the concept for INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS for nearly a decade prior to its release, scratching out and scuttling numerous drafts in the pursuit of perfection.  He came to see the film as his magnum opus, and he felt that every word had to be perfect.  After the disappointment of 2007’s DEATH PROOF, Tarantino felt that it was an appropriate time to seriously tackle his long-in-development WW2 film and return to cinemas with his guns blazing.

INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS was initially conceived as a men-on-a-mission film, similar to THE DIRTY DOZEN (1967) or its own namesake, Enzo Castellari’s THE INGLORIOUS BASTARDS (1978).  Tarantino mainstay Michael Madsen was supposed to star as a character named Babe Buchinsky, and Adam Sandler was intended to play a role that made it into the finished film:  Sgt. Donny Donowitz, a role eventually filled by Tarantino’s filmmaking colleague Eli Roth.  As it did with his KILL BILL saga before it, Tarantino’s script inevitably got away from him.  It sprawled in scope and size, and before he knew it, Tarantino’s small band of Nazi scalpers found themselves as supporting characters in a larger ensemble piece about the conspiracy to kill Hitler.

Tarantino’s finished film follows two separate threads that eventually combine.  The first is the story of the Basterds, headed by a tough SOB named Lt. Aldo Raine (Brad Pitt) who charges his men with a personal debt to him—one that can only be repaid in 100 Nazi scalps.  Meanwhile, a young Jewish girl named Shoshanna hides in plain sight under an assumed name and occupation as a French theatre owner after escaping the massacre of her family at the hands of the ruthless Jew Hunter, Col. Hans Landa (Christoph Waltz).  When events conspire to hold the premiere of a prestigious Nazi propaganda film at her theatre, she hatches a plot to burn the theatre down with the Nazis inside.  The Basterds learn of this premiere separately, hatching their own plot when they learn from their German film star-turned-double agent Bridget Von Hammersmark (Diane Kruger) that Hitler and his top officers will be in attendance.  What follows will change the course of history as we know it.

For a film about World War 2, INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS is infamously short on action, choosing instead to create a handful of setpieces featuring the actors sitting around a table and talking.  Naturally, the performances have to be compelling, and Tarantino coaxes career-best performances out of every single one of his cast members.  Even though he gets top billing on the poster, Pitt is simply one cog in Tarantino’s complex machine of a plot.  The widely recognizable film star crafts perhaps his most outlandish persona yet as the Tennessee-bred Lt. Aldo Raine, better known by his enemies as The Apache.  Pitt plays the character as a charmingly vengeful force of nature—a tough, gruff proto-American with a mysterious neck scar that’s never explained but alludes to the magnitude of his resilience and grit.  He’s a perfect avatar to convey Tarantino’s cartoonish take on history.

I initially found Tarantino’s casting of the remaining Basterds to be surprising, given the earlier rumblings about Madsen and Sandler.  In retrospect, the casting is inspired and fits the tone very well.  Eli Roth had left a bad taste in my mouth after seeing his film HOSTEL(2005), but he won me back over after performing as the Bear Jew, Sgt. Donny Donowitz.  He assumes a boarish demeanor and a heavy Masshole accent as he bashes in Nazi brains with a bat bearing the names of Jewish friends and family back home.  He’s not the best actor in the world, but he has an unexpected degree of talent in this arena that serves the film very well.

THE OFFICE’s BJ Novack gets his first high-profile film role here as Pvt. Smithsen, as does DEATH PROOF co-star Omar Doom as Pvt. Omar Ulmer.  Finally there’s Til Schweiger as the stoic Nazi hunter Sgt. Hugo Stiglitz.  In addition to getting his own grindhouse-esque backstory sequence, Schweiger gets some of the film’s best lines, like “say goodbye to your Nazi balls”.

INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS also features some fierce females, in the form of Diane Kruger and Melanie Laurent.  Kruger uses her natural glamor to striking degree as the elegant German film star, Diane Von Hammersmark.  In such a testosterone-laden film, she’s a breath of fresh air—but make no mistake, she’s just as tough as any Basterd, if not more so. She plays a crucial role as the Basterds’ inside woman, and her participation helps pave the way for Hitler’s downfall and the end of World War 2 (at least in Tarantino’s timeline).

Equally as determined is European revelation Melanie Laurent, who is heartbreaking as the vulnerable Shoshanna.  After suffering the horror of having her family massacred by Nazis, she channels her trauma into a strength that helps bring down the entire Nazi regime.  It’s a career-making performance, and I hope to see her utilized in more American films down the line.  Shoshanna is a perfect example of Tarantino’s nuanced understanding of the fairer sex and his penchant for empowering them.

Less fierce is Julie Dreyfus, who serves in a similar capacity to her Sofie Fatale role in KILL BILL VOLUME 1 (2003).  Here, she plays Francesa Mondino, Joseph Goebbels’ French interpreter and sexual plaything.  It’s really more of a small cameo, but her reprisal of the glamorous assistant/interpreter/confidante archetype points to running themes and in-jokes across Tarantino’s entire body of work.

Irish actor Michael Fassbender finds in INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS his mainstream breakout role as British film critic and serviceman, Lt. Archie Hicox.  He only appears in one chapter, but, Christ….what an appearance.  Fassbender effortlessly assumes the droll, aristocratic nature of his character.  He has a subtle confidence that somehow makes him even more badass than his Basterd colleagues.  There’s a moment in a tense Mexican standoff at a basement bar crawling with Nazis, whereby Fassbender has a pistol pointed directly at him under the table.  Sensing his impending demise, he calmly takes a shot of whiskey and drops his cover as a fellow Nazi officer by stating: “since it appears I’ll be rapping at death’s door very shortly, I hope you don’t mind that I go out speaking the King’s.”  Ugh, so badass.  So fucking classy.  In this single sequence, Fassbender assured his stardom in addition to capturing the lusty hearts of women (and men) the world over.

Suprisingly, Mike Myers makes a cameo appearance as Hicox’s commanding officer, General Fanny.  Prior to seeing the film for the first time, I was aware that Myers was in the film.  However, I strained to find him until I suddenly realized that the balding British general giving Fassbender his orders was in fact, Austin Powers himself.  Myers serves up a positively chameleon-esque performance that makes great use of his comedic talents to subtle, engaging effect.

And then there’s INGLOURIOUS BASTERD’s big revelation.  The man that anybody who saw the film could not stop raving about.  The man whose performance was so striking that it launched him from European obscurity to American Oscar-winner overnight.  Yes, I’m talking about Christoph Waltz, the seasoned character actor who until recently was completely unknown to our shores.  As the chief antagonist Col. Hans Landa, Waltz is positively electrifying.  He’s at once both charming and cold-blooded, concealing a very deadly ferocity with a dandy, effete demeanor.  He goes against every single villain expectation in the book, even going so far as to defect to the Allied side when he realizes the Nazis can’t win.  Waltz is endlessly entertaining in the role, and it’s baffling to think that Tarantino once wanted Leonardo DiCaprio in the role. Literally no one else could have played this part as well as Waltz has.  His performance single-handedly elevates this film from a great film to cinematic history.

Tarantino once again utilizes the talents of cinematographer Robert Richardson to render the somber French locales in vivid, bright color.  They style the film as a modern-day spaghetti western, albeit set in World War 2.  The 2.35:1 aspect ratio allows for dramatic, expansive compositions, and the high-key lighting scheme allows for a deep contrast that gives the film a palpable weight.  INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS boasts an autumnal look, with desaturated greens and wet, drab stone-greys that allow for the bright red of blood and Nazi flags to really pop.  Camera-wise, INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS is Tarantino’s most low-key work yet.  He chooses to keep the camera locked-off for a vast majority of the film, employing the strategic use of dolly and crane shots only when it serves a strong purpose.  As Tarantino’s first period piece, production designer David Wasco faithfully creates authentic costumes and sets for the cast members to inhabit.

Tarantino initially wanted legendary composer Ennio Morricone to score the film, owing mainly to the fact thatINGLOURIOUS BASTERDS took so much inspiration from spaghetti westerns.  Unfortunately, Morricone was unable to commit, and Tarantino subsequently used selects from the maestro’s existing score work for his own purposes.  He also includes a few cues that he previously utilized in his KILL BILL saga, which ties his self-contained universe closer together.

Tarantino has to be the first director in memory to use scores for existing movies as source tracks, almost as if they were pop music or rock and roll.  To Tarantino, film music is rock and roll—there’s no difference.  What it was initially created for or when it was created bears no difference to the story, only that it should strike to the core of whatever emotional truth Tarantino is trying to convey at any given moment.  This is best exemplified in the use of an anachronistic David Bowie track during an introductory montage to the cinema-house massacre.  In perpetuating this practice, Tarantino has given a huge gift to cinema; he has unshackled music from the context of its time and allowed for unparalleled levels of commentary and thematic expression.

INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS is an unconventional war film, in that it doesn’t concern itself with battle but with the thematic conceit of language.  Right down to the misspelled title, Tarantino makes no bones about language as the driving force of the film.  The majority of the film is in a language other than English, with several characters switching between languages as easily as you would slip out of a t-shirt and into a new one.  Christoph Waltz flits from German, to Italian, to English and French without so much as a second thought, making his Hans Landa character a truly formidable foe in a world where language means the difference between life or death.  Tarantino also plays the cultural linguistic divide for laughs, such as a truly hysterical moment where Brad Pitt’s American character must butcher the elegant musicality of Italian through his thick Southern drawl.  And who can forget Waltz’s absolutely ridiculous delivery of “That’s a bingo!”?

Indeed, the film itself is structured like that perennial celebration of language: the novel.  Tarantino’s use of book-like chapter designations has never been more appropriate and justified than it is here, whereby he eschews typical three-act film structure and bases his story around a handful of distinct, elongated set-pieces he deems as “chapters”.  And just like a novel, Tarantino isn’t afraid to dwell on the minutiae of a single moment.  The longest scenes in the film—the opening in the French farmhouse and the basement tavern rendezvous with Hammersmark—go on for almost half an hour each, dragging out the suspense to an almost unbearable degree until it is released in an explosion of blood and violence.  For most directors, this approach would be highly ill-advised, but Tarantino’s preternatural talent for engaging dialogue keeps his audience dangling on every well-chosen word.

Tarantino’s signature structural trademarks are all present and accounted for—the yellow title font, the creative profanity, abrupt music drops, a victim’s POV shot looking up at his aggressors, elaborate tracking shots, the Mexican standoff, etc. However, here they mark a profound change in maturity; that is to say, there’s a refined, worldly sophistication to his techniques where they were once vulgar, coarse, and undisciplined.

It’s fitting that Tarantino’s story uses a movie theatre as an important element, so much so that it plays a hand in ending World War 2.  The film references in his previous films have all built up to this, wherein a movie premiere becomes a watershed moment in world history and turns a generation of Americans into film buffs (albeit, only within Tarantino’s self-contained universe).  He uses Shoshanna’s theatre as the climax’s venue, showing it off in an elaborately elegant tracking shot similar to how he presented the geography of KILL BILL VOLUME 1’s House of Blue Leaves set.  Whereas the latter sequence tends to come off as showboat-y, here Tarantino exercises a degree of restraint that builds tension and anticipation by expertly setting up the dominos for an explosive finale.

Despite being consistently hailed as an auteur, Tarantino has always relied on the talents of an elite pool of collaborators. The aforementioned Richardson and Wasco have played an integral role in bringing Tarantino’s vision to the screen, as have regular producing partners Lawrence Bender and the Weinstein brothers.  Past Tarantino performers like Harvey Keitel and Samuel L. Jackson appear in voice cameos as an OSS Commander and an omniscient narrator explaining nitrate film’s flammability, respectively.  Tarantino also finds another use for Eli Roth’s talents by commissioning him to direct NATION’S PRIDE, the film-within-a-film whose premiere the Nazis are celebrating.

Throughout his career, Tarantino has shown considerable respect towards his collaborators.  There are stories from the set of INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS about how he’d hold screenings for his crew featuring the movies by their co-stars and fellow craftsmen.  Not many directors show such reverence towards the people they work with; it’s no wonder that Tarantino is so highly regarded amongst actors and below-the-line talent alike.

Of course, I must mention Tarantino’s biggest collaborator, the superbly-talented Sally Menke.  Out of all the people who could lay claim to helping Tarantino become the director he is today, Menke’s contributions put her head and shoulders above every single one.  She is the shaper of Tarantino’s vision, finding the music in his dynamic compositions and harnessing the raw energy of his direction into a coherent experience.  The flawlessly-edited INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS marks the high point, the culmination of their work together.  Unfortunately, it also marks the last time they will ever work together.  Sadly, Menke passed away in 2010 as she was hiking in Los Angeles’ Griffith Park, and with her death Tarantino lost his co-author and his platonic partner.  It remains to be seen how this will play out in Tarantino’s work going forward, but the success of 2012’s DJANGO UNCHAINED is promising.

INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS was an unprecedented success for Tarantino, besting even 1994’s PULP FICTION.  Until it was unseated by DJANGO UNCHAINED, INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS was Tarantino’s highest-grossing film and still remains as his best-reviewed.  True to form, the film was met with considerable controversy upon its release.  Some were uncertain whether the concept of Jews aggressively pursuing revenge on the Nazis was in poor taste or not, or if it was respectful to survivors of the Holocaust.  Still others were frustrated by Tarantino’s blatant historical revisionism, which takes the apocryphal tack of gunning down Hitler in a gleeful hail of bullets during the theatre inferno sequence (as opposed to shooting himself in a bunker like he did in real life).  Personally, it’s an act of wish-fulfillment that’s firmly on-tone with the story that precedes it.  By taking such a cartoonish attitude towards his aesthetic, Tarantino grants himself the license to alter history as he sees fit, making for a much more cathartic ending to World War 2 than we actually got.

As far as Tarantino’s career development goes, INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS marks the beginning of a new phase for the controversial auteur.  If DEATH PROOF saw the end of his Tex-Mex/grindhouse phase, then this film begins something much more prestigious.  Indeed, INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS is the closest that Tarantino has ever come to Oscar respectability in the Academy’s eyes (PULP FICTION’s screenwriting win notwithstanding).  The reverence bestowed upon his follow-up, DJANGO UNCHAINED, only reinforces the notion that he is in a prestige phase.  Perhaps it’s only appropriate, given that Tarantino is now firmly in middle-age and has gone on record to state that he would be happy only having ten features to his name (INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS is the seventh).  Faced with the possibility of his career winding down, it’s only natural that Tarantino would be concerned with his legacy.

The film’s final moment has Pitt carving a swastika into the forehead of a screaming Waltz.  Admiring his handiwork, he muses: “you know what, I think this just might be my masterpiece”.  All cheekiness aside, INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS might very well be just that: Tarantino’s masterpiece.

Sponsored by: Special.tv – Stream Independent 


Author Cameron Beyl is the creator of The Directors Series and an award-winning filmmaker of narrative features, shorts, and music videos.  His work has screened at numerous film festivals and museums, in addition to being featured on tastemaking online media platforms like Vice Creators Project, Slate, Popular Mechanics, and Indiewire. 

THE DIRECTORS SERIES is an educational collection of video and text essays by filmmaker Cameron Beyl exploring the works of contemporary and classic film directors. 

IFH 473: NFT, Bitcoin, and Creating Indie Films for a Niche Audience with Torsten Hoffmann


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I’ve discussed the importance of finding a niche audience and serving that audience with your films and content in my book Rise of the Filmtrepreneur. Today on the show a filmmaker has done just that. We have Australian filmmaker and Filmtrepreneur, Torsten Hoffmann. His niche audience is people interested in crypto, blockchain, and NFTs.

Torsten’s interest in cryptocurrencies dates back to a paper on Alternative Currencies he wrote while doing his MBA.

By 2013, Bitcoin piqued his interest and soon after materialized into his 2015 directorial debut documentary, Bitcoin: The End of Money as We Know It. The documentary is a concise and informative crash course about Money and Crypto Currencies.

The success of his first film documentary slanged Torsten into high-profile speaking engagements at MIPTV & MIPCOM, AIDC, and Medientage, to speak on blockchain-related trends.

Last year, he produced and directed a subsequent documentary, Cryptopia: Bitcoin, Blockchains and the Future of the Internet.

Basically, he revisits Bitcoin and sets out to explore the evolution of the blockchain industry and its new promise. It asks the fundamental question; Can this technology, designed to operate independent of trust and within a decentralized network, really provide a robust alternative to the Internet as we know it?
This film has since gone on to be one of the most consumed pieces of content in his niche. From the way, he marketed the film to the title Torsten used the Filmtrepreneur Method in every aspect of making the film.

He has also launched numerous entrepreneurial ventures to support independent content creators with his passion for media and technology. If it’s one person who can break down the sometimes intimidating ideas of blockchain, Hoffmann is the man. We also do a deep dive in NFTs as well. 

So, enjoy this unofficial third-part episode on NFT with Torsten Hoffmann.

Alex Ferrari 0:12
I'd like to welcome to the show Torsten Huffman, how you doing Torsten?

Torsten Hoffmann 0:16
Thank you, Alex. Thanks so much. I've been following your work for a long time. This is an honor. Thank

Alex Ferrari 0:19
you. Oh, thank you so much, man. I appreciate it. Yeah, you reached out. And you said, You watched you've listened to a lot of my podcast and also read my book. And then I saw what you were doing. And I was very fascinated, and wanted to kind of dig into the numbers of what you've been doing with niche, niche marketing, and it's filmmaking. So it's pretty cool, man. So but let's, before we get started, how did you get into the business?

Torsten Hoffmann 0:42
Yeah, I'm coming from the evil side of the business. As you like to say, I used to be a television distributor, like a small shop that I opened in 2012 when 3d was the latest hot thing where I'm like, avatar came out there was producing 3d. And I became like, in the documentary market, one of those distributors specialize in 3d documentaries, and then switch quickly to 4k development in VR, virtual reality and 360 videos as well. So I've been in kind of the the emerging formats, part of the documentary distribution business.

Alex Ferrari 1:13
So very cool. Now, you've made you've decided to be a filmmaker who kind of chose chooses niches and the niches of two films that you did, where Bitcoin and blockchain kind of like a high tech audience that you've kind of cultivated Why did you choose how and why did you choose that niche?

Torsten Hoffmann 1:35
Yeah, I, you know, I've heard some of your other guests say this, that it's kind of like your niche sometimes chooses you or whatever, whatever the saying is, so for me was I have a little bit of a finance background. I heard about alternative currencies many many years ago, then heard about Bitcoin and it kind of clicked immediately for me because I had a little bit of a financial background and wrote a paper on alternative currencies in 2010 so when I heard about Bitcoin 2013 it was immediately clear Wow, this is gonna change the world. This is the project I should make my first film on. It was kind of like like not not much more thinking about this. And then later turned out there was a really good idea a really good time. 2014 15 to Yeah, find this niche audience and and create a fan base.

Alex Ferrari 2:20
So what so tell me the film that you created for this for the for this niche?

Torsten Hoffmann 2:26
Yeah, so the first one was Bitcoin, the end of money as we know it, I made it in 2014 with a partner, Michael, and released it in 2015. And that was Kickstarter funded and self funded, I would say mostly, it went viral on the internet and was doing okay, on on video on demand. And now, five years later, or four or five years later, the new film is called cryptopia, Bitcoin blockchain and the future of the Internet. So all the buzzwords are in it for sociability and that one is much bigger, so much bigger production budget, supported by Screen Australia, supported by German broadcasters, and again fans on on Kickstarter and self

Alex Ferrari 3:01
funded so those films so let's get into the weeds a little bit. So with Bitcoin, obviously, Bitcoin is one of those things that everyone's talking about. And it's, it's, you know, polarizing one way or the other people either love it, you know, it's the future or people think it's a complete scam. I'm on the I'm on the fence. I have no idea. It's like, I see it go up and down on like, you know, I would have liked to have bought it when it was five bucks. Like, you know, like that one poor guy who's got like $70 million or something like that locked away for God his code or something like that. So insane. But the whole concept of Bitcoin how So first of all, how did you raise funds for it? You crowdfunded it?

Torsten Hoffmann 3:43
Yeah, so we're talking about the first one all right, yes, back in history and 2014 Yep, um, that was crowdfunding a half half of it crowdfunded half of it of my own money, let's say relatively low budget, lots of archive footage and interviews that I shot in five or six cities. So I'm I should actually say I'm based in Australia. I'm originally German and of course a lot of the content is produced in America because that's where a lot of the industry happens. So I'm usually we you know, spread three continents or cryptokeys in four continents.

Alex Ferrari 4:13
And did you did you start targeting and building your audience with the crowdfunding campaigns?

Torsten Hoffmann 4:19
Yep, that was exactly the start and the way to do it and I heard you say this before just an idea do not get funded so you need to show people something right so creating the first sizzle we have some of the interviews some of the drama already and making making this story may be grand as it is more dramatic as it is because just as you say, people love it and think this is like you know the best thing since sliced bread or it's a total scam right? And if you use all that drama you and you have some some material, and that's how we funded the first case,

Alex Ferrari 4:50
in the whole concept of Bitcoin, I want to just kind of get into the weeds a little bit about Bitcoin because, you know, the technology itself is very His very utopia, very kind of like, you know, Shangri La, where like a decentralized currency. You know, it sounds fantastic. Obviously some people are taking seriously there is a lot of money in Bitcoin, there's a lot of serious players jumping in. What do you feel that is going to happen? Do you think I mean, there is the only problem I have with Bitcoin is that there is no tangible value, it's a digital value. So there's a there it is like gold, it's digital gold, you know, there's a limited quantity, all that stuff, but it's all digital. So there's like, if the power goes out in the world, you've lost everything. But if you have a bunch of gold, and people could argue gold all day long, but it's still been money since the beginning of time. There is there's something about gold and silver and those kinds of things. But it's an asset, it's something you could physically hold. What do you I'm just curious on your take on it. Yeah.

Torsten Hoffmann 6:01
And I look at everything that you said, is worth a whole show. And I've done these two shows before, by itself. Let me maybe I'm not quite sure how to tackle it. But let me first say, in 2014, Bitcoin was a crazy thing. Nobody really took it seriously except a few libertarian on a case and like, like people who bought drugs on the on the internet, totally true. very risky. But that time Bitcoin was still $200. Right? I mean, those those people took great risks were very well rewarded. It's $60,000. Now, right? And today, if you look at it, it's actually been so it has failed in a lot of use cases, for example, people don't really use it as a as a currency, right? I don't think you've you've paid for your last Amazon book or something on Bitcoin. But it really has succeeded as as digital gold. And now every single investment bank, every single government, right, and some big companies are using it to put it on the Treasury or something like that. So I think it's much less risky now, and much more serious, big money. It's not worth a trillion dollars or a trillion dollars.

Alex Ferrari 7:08
Yeah. And it's only getting bigger and bigger and bigger. So you're able to tap into that phase. Have you seen a boost in people watching that documentary? Because it's been in the news pretty heavily in the last few years. And, and the just jumped up to like, you know, the heights and a drops down, it's just so volatile, it's a very volatile thing. Cannot be manipulated, you know, is it being manipulated? It's hard to manipulate something that has a price point of $60,000, you need to be players to come in and manipulate that stuff. Yeah,

Torsten Hoffmann 7:41
I mean, in 2014 15, sure, you can like one one rich whale, as they call it can probably manipulate the price. But at the moment, it's so liquid, there's so many players all around the world. And Coinbase, the largest crypto exchange in in America. And the second biggest in the world is going on the stock exchange, right, and the New York Stock Exchange this month or next month, and that company alone is worth more than the NASDAQ. And why is he as investor companies already? So there's, there's hundreds of millions of people using it and trading I thought sort of, it's hard to manipulate. But to to your earlier point, this is actually interesting, right? Because I chose maybe it was just lucky, I chose a topic that people hate or love or just are confused about so they need to get education about it. And every time it's in the press, right? I see a pickup in my video on demand. revenues. And yeah, it's one of those topics that people just deal first time you hear it must be a scam. Second time, you know, who's trying to scam me, right? And then fourth, fifth, sixth time, maybe they watch a documentary, and then they maybe dig deeper.

Alex Ferrari 8:47
Right? And then so the the value of so you are seeing the jump. Are you seeing it on Amazon? Are you have you been kicked off of Amazon yet? Or did you because I know documentaries have been kicked off and you know where you making most of your revenue from in in the VOD space. Avon or teavana. restaurant?

Torsten Hoffmann 9:06
Yeah. Um, so, again, two films, right. The old film was on Amazon, but then was a victim of that company that we don't like to talk about, but you uncovered the scandal and the whole thing. Well, thank you for your Yes, for your journalistic work there. So I was a victim of that. And then got back in with Phil Hart, both both films actually, via film up onto Amazon and then got kicked off so that because it's old, it's kind of, you know, lower budget kind of film, even though it did very well on Amazon. Most of my revenue, I think came back in the day on Capitol Hill. And now a little bit on Vimeo, it's it's five, six years old. So now change it to Avon. And it has, I think, maybe 2 million views last year on YouTube alone, which is also a nice bunch of money, right? But but with cryptopia award winning film brand new. That one again with film hop is on the major platforms, and we're doing quite well on on Amazon and we're lucky enough to be kicked off.

Alex Ferrari 10:02
Yeah, exactly. So so cryptopia Now you've kind of like amplify that but now you through blockchain and there you through all these kind of keywords which is extremely smart. So anyone look I've seen your your documentaries come through my my feed many times because I've done research on blockchain and research on Bitcoin and, and kind of going just doing research just out of my own morbid curiosity about what blockchain is and the technology and the future of it and all that stuff. And you pop up, and you have a great poster. Great, great poster. Great title. And I was always curious and how you were, how you doing? financially? Like it wasn't making money?

Torsten Hoffmann 10:42
Well, you know, the calculation is always difficult, because if we were to calculate our own time, right, no,

Alex Ferrari 10:49
no, no, you can't do that.

Torsten Hoffmann 10:52
Right now. But But luckily, so for the for growtopia. I had many funding partners, right. So the German broadcaster came in, they get the German rights, but get get get me a bunch of approximately, so that was good. Again, Kickstarter. That's, that's non diluted. Capital, right. So I'm able to, largely funded with other sources, right, and then everything that's now coming in, not everything, but a large share of that is his profit, if you will. But I'm also spending on Facebook ads, I'm also spending on film festivals and all these things that you keep talking about. And it takes a long time to build that audience. And that

Alex Ferrari 11:26
that platform, do you have a central hub where everything's coming in as far as like gathering customer information, emails, things like that? Or is email a big thing for you? Or are you literally just hanging out in the other platforms? Are you driving people to a website, where you can capture their email, so you can have a direct relationship with the customer?

Torsten Hoffmann 11:45
Now that's, you know, Alex, that is the key question. I mean, honestly, I'm probably doing a better job than average, but not not not good enough. And people listening to this thinking about their filmmaking career. This is actually where you should start your whole journey. So yes, I do collect an emails, I might have maybe 4000 email addresses by now. But most of the viewership, I just saw the statistics, we have 6 million minutes viewed on on Amazon last month. So over a year, like I don't know, 15 million minutes views. So it's a huge audience that is totally lost. So other than, you know, five star ratings and some of that, and a good IMDb score, I'm not really getting anything, I can't tap into that. platform. But you know, some people end up at crypto crypto.com some people do sign up for a newsletter, some people then go to my Udemy course on blockchain. You know, that's, that's one of the things that I took from your books as well. It's not that, you know, the Udemy course doesn't make me rich, but it's just you know, it's one of those little pieces of the puzzle. And please, let me remind me to tell you about Television Distribution, because that is now kicking in, which is a very, very promising as well.

Alex Ferrari 12:53
So yeah, tell me tell me about the Television Distribution.

Torsten Hoffmann 12:56
Yeah, so um, it's kind of funny, even though that's kind of my background, this television market and licensing, I didn't really quite understand it. And until and now that I always focused on making cryptopia film The Best Film possible for my audience for those crypto nerds and those blockchain lovers, right. And so it ended up being an 86 minute film, but the television market, they need a TV hour. So so it took me much more time than it really should have taken me down to four reformatted for the television audience, television audience much more mainstream, much less technical, you know, all the bullet points, all the technical details needed to be stripped out but now that I have finally finally have this TV, our the deals are coming in. So we've closed maybe eight or nine television deals a total of 450 million TV homes. The biggest one is LG zero, and the biggest TV channel in Germany, they pre bought the rights but then you know that the top TV channels in Poland and Russia and Israel and places like that so and all these license steals, and they end up with nice, nice license fees.

Alex Ferrari 14:05
That's fantastic. Now how are you reaching your audience? Do you are you doing any marketing and a huge I like I said, Are you driving people back to your website? Or you you just basically hoping that people watch the movie and then just come to cryptopia? Calm?

Torsten Hoffmann 14:20
Yeah, I mean, by now it's a lot of word of mouth, right? Because if, let's say whatever the amount is, maybe 50% of people that watch the film really liked it, because they are interested in the topic and they learn from it. Right? And then they talk until their friends and family so I think most of it by now is word of mouth and doing a little bit of on Twitter, I'm doing a little bit of Facebook. But I wouldn't say that um, I just started actually with fire TV as as well that there's a there's a program we can advertise on on Amazon as well. But I don't think any of these marketing activities are actually ROI positive. So it's good for branding. So when you see you see my films before so clearly, I've done some Right, but it's not that $1 spent on Twitter or Facebook will get me 1.1 dollars in VOD revenue, that that doesn't work.

Alex Ferrari 15:07
But if you had other revenue sources like a Udemy course, like something else, that you can drive people into your into your ecosystem, and because this is a perfect example, I think that growtopia is a amazing case study, if you were able to have your entire marketing campaign driving people into a website, where because it's such a technical thing, and such a thing, it's such a people are very passionate about. So if you had a Bitcoin course, if you had a blockchain course, and if you had multiple different online products that could help with that you become affiliates to coin base, I don't know, I'm just throwing that out there, whatever that is, to, to incorporate them into what they're looking for the revenue that you can generate. The month the moving money is, it's it's relevant. It's a it's a, it's a loss leader at that point.

Torsten Hoffmann 15:57
Yeah, and that's true. And every 50th person seeing it right there, a CEO of organization, or they run an association, or they're university professors, so they start contacting me and say, let's do an event, right, and that event might suddenly bring me $500. Right. So so there's, there's this effect as well. And another point that I really want to stress is, this is not really about one film, it's more about like your whole career, like your body of work, right. And you talk about this Ryan Holiday has a fantastic book called perennial seller, it's all about your building from one to the next. So as I'm lucky so I have Bitcoin, the end of money, that's like a intro thing for our money and Bitcoin. Now, this blockchain or the new development, my next one about the next technology, it just keeps getting bigger and bigger, right, and what book authors do, for example, they have the series, right, and then they can discount when something new comes out, they can discount the the earlier farms and sell it as a package. So you can do much more when you have more than just one film.

Alex Ferrari 16:58
Now do you have you thought of putting together a special edition where you put an edited interviews up in a course or in a special edition where people can buy like people who are really interested in like, hey, if you like the movie, here's eight hours of unedited interviews with all of these experts, and sell it, I've seen that work extremely well. Because, again, your audience is so passionate about that tech audience is first tech savvy. Secondly, generally they're going to be a little bit higher, they're going to make a little bit more money. So they're going to be a little bit more affluent, and willing to spend money on a digital product, because their their interest is digital product. So it is it was a no brainer to create as many, many online products as you can and bring them into this ecosystem where you can consider and considering like you just saying, you're building a career around the technology space, doing like first was Bitcoin cryptopia. And now your next film, you're building a library, you're building a bunch of stuff you really could be cleaning up, sir.

Torsten Hoffmann 18:06
Yeah, and I should be doing a better job of that, you know, that there's, I mean, I agree with everything that you just said. But I think there's three or four reasons why I want to be careful. So first of all, you don't want to be the person, you know, just selling you whatever cryptocurrency, right? I mean that that will just hurt the reputation. That's number one. Number two is the process of making a deity wearing the film and then having it marketed. And now that the shelf life of it is many, many years so that those interviews that I did back then, are maybe not that relevant. Third point is there's so much free content, especially in that space, few podcasts and video views. So I'm not sure how much value it can be, especially because it's kind of out of date. And the last point that I would make, you know, documentary filmmakers know this, you know, out of the two hour interview with someone who's super interesting, like a university professor or a billionaire investor, or like a startup entrepreneur, or have two hours, you might really only be interested in four or five minutes. And for a film, you cut that into two times 20 seconds, that this is the energy, the laugh the energy, right, and then the rest might not be that

Alex Ferrari 19:14
useful. But but but the cryptopia interviews, I'm assuming they're all updated, right? Those are all up to date interviews, right? So that's all there's some value there. I'd argue that you could put together, you know, extended 30 or 40 minute interviews with all of the key people package it all together. And the one thing you might underestimate and this is turned into a coaching session, which is fine, I have no problem doing it. This is very educational for people listening. I feel that you under you're under estimating the emotional attachment to your film, because when I watch a movie, you know I've been vegan for a long long time. And I used to watch all those like you know food for food for for fork over knives and food for thought and all those kind of good stuff. Dorothy cowspiracy all those kinds of things, right? When I would go after I watched the movie, I was so emotionally attached to the film, because it gave me so much information about something I was emotionally attached to. That emotional attachment is extremely powerful. So if I watch cryptopia, and it's given me a lot of information about blockchain about Bitcoin about things that I'm passionate about, if I've gone online, and I've gone to your website, the chances of me being open to purchasing something to extend that experience is extremely high, the the close rate, if you will, would be extremely high, much higher than a cold read that you know, some like I would be considered a hot, a hot customer a hot lead, because I'm coming to your site to investigate what you are about what else you have. And chances are that if you have something else for 4999 9999, maybe a private coaching session about Bitcoin, maybe you know a course about blockchain or Bitcoin, all these other products, if I'm going to be really game, to probably go down that rabbit hole, because I'm emotionally attached to so yes, there's 1000 podcasts, and 1000 other videos about stuff. And you know what, there's 1000 other podcasts that teach about filmmaking, there's 1000 other podcasts, 1000 other books about filmmaking out there, but for whatever reason, you started listening to my podcast, then you bought then which was free, then you bought my book? And then when did he break down,

Torsten Hoffmann 21:42
and then I recommended it to five other people. So

Alex Ferrari 21:45
it works. Well, the concepts work, but then you got emotionally attached to the information I'm giving you because I'm helping you on your journey. So now there's an attachment to to this. So all these other things that I might be able to come up with, like let's say, I come up with a film shoprunner course which I should be doing, but I don't have time. But if like after you read that book, and you're like, oh, at the end, like, by the way, if you want to take the entrepreneurial course, which we can dive in deeper into all these techniques, what are the chances that you're going to go out and probably buy that? Do you see what I mean? So that's why I think you I think you might be leaving a little money on the table. That's just my opinion, just my opinion.

Torsten Hoffmann 22:23
Not 100%, right. It's also time management and things like that, actually, you example about the vegan documentary. I actually, like when I speak at film festivals or something I go, I always mentioned that as a perfect nice group, because they are so so passionate, right? And I think in your book, you had this example, I'm not sure. Was it a cooking folk organized? Or did they have like Homer knives?

Alex Ferrari 22:44
Oh, yeah, family, food matters has their own Empire, Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead juicing guy, he built an entire business around two documentaries, basically off one documentary. And then he built out two other documentaries, feeding that space. And then he's got coaches now and people who wanted to learn about juicing, and he has product placement deals with the juicing company, and it's just, it's built all this off of one fairly low budget documentary, it wasn't that great. But there's an emotional attachment. And that's when you when you're able to tap into the emotion with a customer. That's why documentaries are so much easier to sell than a narrative film. Because the narrative and it's so much harder.

Torsten Hoffmann 23:30
Yeah, and especially if you know, your audience, and my audience, luckily, is also pretty clearly defined. And these are great examples. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 23:37
yeah. So it's something that you might want to think about in the future, you know, cuz you already started doing it with the Udemy course. And it's like, little bit by little bit. But I like I even literally, in my, in my book, if you remember, in my book, I use the book, as a callback for you to go to my websites, constantly throughout the book. I'm inserting, like, if you want more information, go to this link here some more. And I have bonuses that I have on my website. And once I have you on my website, then I can further service you, I could provide more service to you whether it's free, obscene amount of free content, obscene amount of right, I give away way too much content. But I give away a lot of free but I'm like, if you want a little bit more here, you can pay for something.

Torsten Hoffmann 24:20
So So is there a good rule of thumb in terms of how often do you send out offers or promotions or an up sale email to your email list? And because isn't isn't the fear that people will get annoyed and then unsubscribe. But I'm on the other side, I have 4000 email addresses and I've never emailed them because, you know, this is all cryptopia until my next book comes out in two years, I don't really want to make them get annoyed at me.

Alex Ferrari 24:47
So what you would do is if you have a list, you need to start building a relationship with them. So I would I would either be building content, whether that be videos about about blockchain Conversations bonus video interviews that you can post somewhere on YouTube and send it to them like hey, or even better posted behind a paywall, but you're giving it to them for free. And like, if you want to see more, come over here and we have a new, you know, we had another eight hours of this stuff. And you'd be surprised what you find boring, added that to our conversation, somebody else might find fascinating. As long as there's value there, you're not you're the game at the end of the game, you've got to provide value to your audience, you got to provide value to your customer. And as far as selling to them, the way I look at it, because you know, I've my entire business is online, and I have multiple brands and I do multiple things. I provide so much free value, that that's never a question. So I am constantly I mean I produce, I'm so far ahead of anybody else in my space, in regards to the amount of content that I put out. And at the quality that I put out that there's just no one that even comes close to me. It's just because I've been doing that for the last six years. So when I, when I sell, I'll go Hey, guys, we got a new course, if you're interested in distribution, I just did a six hour distribution course that will teach you how not to get screwed by distributors. And I took and I did it personally and it's me going through the whole thing and, and that that course has done extremely well for me for me. But um, but at the end of the game is not about the money. That's the thing, where a lot of people forget that that's where a lot of people fail, is because they're like, Oh, I want to make money with no money. I'm gonna try to get money out of my audience. No, it's not that, how can I serve the audience. So your audience is looking for information about Bitcoin about blockchain, about that kind of technology, I want to go deeper down that rabbit hole, I want to go deeper into the weeds about that. So if I don't give it to you, if you don't give it to me, I'm gonna go find it somewhere else, I'll buy someone else's course I'll so it's up to you, if you've got someone's attention, which you have a great calling card, which is your film, then it's your honestly, it's your job to provide better service to me as the customer, and give me what I'm looking for. Because if I'm going to your website, off of a movie, and I actually took the time in today's world to search for you, and I land on your website, and you don't have something to capture my email, you don't have some sort of free giveaway, you don't have a course, or a special edition, or coaching or courses or anything a mouse pad that says crypto piano, I don't know, whatever it is, I think you're not only failing yourself, but you're filling me as a customer because because it's high intent, right? It's the highest intent

Torsten Hoffmann 27:49
you can ever have that people come and search for your film or for for for you. And then you have to have product and

Alex Ferrari 27:56
and yeah, and I honestly think it's just been I've learned this over the course of my time doing what I do is you've got to prioritize this, you have to prioritize creating product and creating value for your audience that they can pay for. Because they want to reciprocate they want to give back to you. And if you can help them along their journey, you know, as long as you're not, you know, stealing from them or like, you know, charging them obscene amounts of money or something like that for something that there's no value for. But if you're being fair with them, and you're putting in your time, and I'm telling you, they'll be happy so that 4000 people on your list, I would right now just start emailing them like, Hey, I just found this article, even if you curate other people's content, other articles have seen that you provide value to to the audience and then in that you go Oh, by the way, if you want to go deeper down the rabbit hole on blockchain, I just released this. If you've been giving away free free content, content content, when it's time for you to ask for something, it's it's what Gary Vee, Gary Vaynerchuk says, you know Jab, Jab, Jab, Right Hook, you give, give, give, give, give, ask give, give, give, give, give, ask. And that's, that's the way it goes.

Torsten Hoffmann 29:08
Yeah. And you know, the other thing that's obviously coming up soon is that your world in my world will kind of converge soon with with the creator economy and blockchain technology enabling all sorts of new models, right for filmmakers, and creatives, including those NF T's that everybody is now talking about at the moment. So, no,

Alex Ferrari 29:27
I was waiting for you to say NFT I was just waiting to have a conversation about an fd. We'll get to it in a second. But

Torsten Hoffmann 29:33
yeah, no, I'm just I mean at the moment, and people talk about you know, those little NBA clips or maybe a digital piece of artwork, but as soon as soon enough, filmmakers will NFT like, make their mint, their film and maybe even have the royalty streams all on the blockchain. So I think things like that will, let's say give it a year time and then this will become a real model for us.

Alex Ferrari 29:59
So Alright, so For everyone listening, can you explain what the NFT is because now it is exploding after that $70 million art by and the NBA and I've just been I've been personally I've been just watching YouTube video after YouTube video explaining to I think someone's mentioned NF T's to me a little like maybe three or four weeks ago, and then all of a sudden it is exploded in popularity and in design of, of society. Now, everybody knows what an NF T is. And now everyone's like, wait a minute, what's what's going on? I'd love to to just explain what an NF T is for the audience.

Torsten Hoffmann 30:35
Yes, um, so NF T stands for non fungible token. And I will get to what it means a little bit later. But I think the best way to explain it is actually the major major innovation that Bitcoin brought along. And Bitcoin is using its own blockchain as a as kind of like the database is to create something that's digital, but also stops right before that you can copy paste any digital file anything that's available copy paste, there's no value in anything digital, because you can you can multiply it with a blockchain, which is just a shared database that that's run on computers all over the world. Everybody agrees on the same database, who owns what Bitcoin in this case, we suddenly have something that's unique and scars, right? Something digital, in bitcoins case, it's money or digital gold, but it could be tied to something else. So now people are starting to do is they basically tied the ownership or the right, or the authenticity of a digital piece of art into the blockchain. And that's what's called as non fungible. So there's only one unique one token. And there's now this craze going on about people buying into all sorts of NF T's, from hard work to NBA moments to songs, and so surely movies as well.

Alex Ferrari 31:56
Yeah, so that was the thing. So how would a movie work? So let's say I have my my last film on the corner of ego and desire that I shot? Let's say I created an NF T for that, how would that work? Do I need to pull it off all the other platforms? Or is it become a piece of art? Maybe I put something special in it that there's only one of and people or people buy if someone buys it is are they buying it on the basis that I might one day explode as a filmmaker and the value of that goes up? So like if I would have bought the following Chris Nolan's first film, his independent film as an F t, that would that and I own the NF T of the following that I would imagine would be extremely valuable as as a piece of art, because it be like, Oh, my God, they own the work. But how would How would that work in a distribution way? Do I need to pull it off everywhere? How does that work? Well,

Torsten Hoffmann 32:55
let me slip into a slight detour on the answer there. So I think that the thing that will be more relevant for us filmmakers relatively soon, is to use this technology as sort of like a royalty system. So let's say instead of doing a Kickstarter where people give you 10 bucks, but the filmmaker keeps all the rights to themselves. And you could imagine that people buy shares in your film, just like they buy shares and testament, right. And then suddenly, there's, let's say, 1000 people, on your investments, right? And then whatever that Phil makes, it's all recorded and then paid out in real time to your 1000 investors. So I think that as a crowdfunding mechanism, we will see this this happening. That's not an NF T, per se. But but that is, that is something I think, maybe the easier to understand right?

Alex Ferrari 33:44
Now, separate there for a second. So okay, so I've made my movie, I've crowdfunded it through through 1000 people. Now, how am I generating the revenue that's not off of Amazon views like that? Is that people buying that movie? How is how is the money being generated?

Torsten Hoffmann 34:01
So I think, I don't know in the past year or maybe two years, I've probably seen a dozen platforms, usually based in Los Angeles, who kind of do this as a service for filmmakers. They say, Okay, put put your film here, we monetize and then pay you out or pay however many investors you have, in whatever share you have. It's sort of similar to what musicians have done for the longest time, right that the songwriter gets X X percent, and that's collecting societies and this and that, and I think for the movie industry will soon see this. But this has nothing to do with an NF t NF t. So request was kind of kind of different. So NF T is basically you sell the ownership, kind of like to one person to your film, and the idea is if your film becomes a global viral hit, and he talks about it, the value of it goes up right so so that's why there's people because he's a celebrity people think well, his notoriety and his virality and his being famous is just going to increase increase. So that's why his body of work and including that one will increase. So it's kind of like a speculative buy on this thing. And what there's like is this saying in this credit economy that says, well, we're starting to monetize memes. So maybe it's a tweet, maybe it's an idea, maybe, maybe it's a, it's a song, and you can now make money with it,

Alex Ferrari 35:26
you can sell it, it's insane. That's insane. So if I made my movie, and I sold it to you, so your your, you buy my movies, NFT for $5,000, let's just say, Now, you own the rights to that movie, and you could do whatever you want with it, or you just own the right to the NFT. And I can still continue to sell it and do other things with it.

Torsten Hoffmann 35:51
And this is where, you know, you shouldn't buy all the BS that the industry because what do you actually own right, especially when it comes to painting, like the painting is something physical, and you only have like this digital receipt that you also so you have to be very careful. And that's why I say I don't think this is quite ready, especially for filmmakers. So these marketplaces are starting to get real traction for art for artworks. Also just a piece of you know, the digital poster, or maybe some some GIF, right. But for film, this doesn't really exist yet. Plus, we also need platforms that we trust, because if you sell me an NFT, on your on your website, and then you go to two different blockchain and he had here, I mean, I wouldn't trust that process yet, but maybe in one or two years, and that's going to be much more mature as an industry.

Alex Ferrari 36:37
Got it. Okay. But so in theory, in theory, let's say that we we create, we create an NFT, for my film on the corner vehicle and desire, there's going to be a physical representation of that NFT, because I've seen physical representations of it for some of the more higher end art, where they actually send you a package and there's like a digital, like, a little like an iPad, I guess, or something like that, that they give you it's you feel like you own something. And it's not just a digital thing. Like when you split that guy who spent $69.7 million for that insane NFT there is value and I saw what the art the art was, and the guy had been doing it for 13 years, and it's a collage of all his art, like I get, I get it, I don't know if it's worth $70 million, but I get it's not it's not a tweet, that was silver. It's not a banana taped on the wall. Kind of artwork. So let's say we figure out a way to basically give an iPhone that plays my movie in a very special bulletproof sealed case that I shipped to you because you've paid $5,000 for it. And you now own The only NFT of that film. Now my move just like Van Gogh's work, or just like other artists, there's multiple copies of it, there's and there and it's everywhere. It's not like you're the only one, you have the original, but you don't have all the copies that are being sold all over the world. So the only two questions I have for you then is one, you have the original. So you have the bragging rights to say, I have the only NFT of this film. And by the way, Alex just won an Oscar for his latest movie, cry, shooting for the mob, and his latest louver shooting film, he just won an Oscar for it. How Much Does somebody want to pay me for on the corner, he goes out and now you go put it back on the marketplace. And you sell that for a million dollars, let's say. And at that million dollars, I get 10% of that billion dollars as the original artist automatically, and you get 900,000. And now the new art the new owner has that piece of art, which is the film can I I guess I guess I can because if I'm selling you my art, I'm not selling you the copyright to the art I'm selling you the print the the limited edition version of it. It's It's its own product that cannot be replicated. And there is no other NFT. So there is scarcity in it. So like if it is a piece of art, like that guy sold the seven, the 69 whatever the $70 million. I assume that there's versions of all of that art that he sold all of it because

Torsten Hoffmann 39:24
Yeah, because that would make it more valuable right the more this piece of artists in virtual reality universes and and your newspapers, the more it gets talked about, just like with the big Picasso paintings or whatever, the more valuable the more famous and it gets, right. I mean, I think there's no doubt about it. But what you just mentioned Actually, I should have mentioned myself, so thanks for that. The key one of the key inventions is not that this digital thing is suddenly worth something because it's a unique, more fungible token. invention has also value as the original creator in that smart contract. Can all be compensated, because in the traditional art world, right, so that artists sells it for $1,000 to the art gallery, and the art gallery makes a million bucks, but the original artists will never see any of that million. But but but with this digitized kind of proof of chain chain chain of title, you can always get a kickback of 10%, which makes you and a lot of other creators join these marketplaces. Right? And then the community of investors comes along because it's suddenly it's a thing so so I guess what I'm saying here is this with these emerging things, is not like one one silver bullet. It doesn't happen overnight. But look at fortnight fortnight is a multi billion dollar economy, right? People buy thoughts or capes or whatever on fortnight's and Bitcoin and other digital good, right that maybe 100 million people all over the world now own, and it's worth a trillion dollars. So it is it's not just one thing, the whole puzzle piece must must fit together.

Alex Ferrari 40:54
There is a place for independent film, there is a place for film somewhere in this ecosystem in this economy. It there's still I don't think there is I think you're right, we're still a few years away. I think it's going to take a minute to get there. But I think there is something there that look, I've been saying it from the top of the of the mountain for a while now. Our the system is broken, the distribution system is broken for filmmakers, and for artists in general. And there has to be some sort of change. And I think that blockchain Bitcoin, that technology is the future, there's no doubt about it, just just no doubt about that. It's going to be the future. What that future is, though, is going to be the question, who's going to who's going to crack that nut, because that's going to take a minute to crack and and there's people working on it as we're speaking right now. But once it's cracked, it could really change the game for for us as independent artists, because right now, he's like, you just said you're getting kicked off of Amazon and you were, you were being insulted with one penny per hour of viewing it was an insult. I mean, if they could pay you fractions of a penny they would have. So even at that point, they're like, yeah, you're still not good enough and still not going to be there. So to have this ability to be able to be paid every time the art gets sold again and again and again, in perpetuity, in perpetuity. This is all going to constantly be coming in it sounds very utopia. As for artists I mean it sounds extremely utopia like but

Torsten Hoffmann 42:31
yeah he maybe cryptopia

Alex Ferrari 42:33
maybe maybe even a cryptopia sir if you're if I may take a very popular films named title. But no, I think what you're I think you are doing great great stuff with your films and what you're thinking of. I'm assuming there's an NF t movie coming out soon if not you should be working on it right now.

Torsten Hoffmann 42:53
So you need to provide me with some drama so either you will become the first independent billionaire independent filmmaker billionaire all you lose your whole empire with some sort of hack

Alex Ferrari 43:06
and that's the thing and that's a way for people listening who are not really familiar with blockchain there is no way to hack this to haven't there hasn't been a hack for this yet is there there is no way to there's it is as secure as anything that's ever been invented purely because it's so transparent, right?

Torsten Hoffmann 43:25
Yes, it's so the the big blockchains like Bitcoin and aetherium are virtually unhackable for sure. Otherwise, somebody would take this trillion dollar value immediately out so that's impossible. However, I mean, to be careful your you can lose your your private keys, or you can transfer to a third party, right? You trust it to Bitcoin bank to these cryptocurrency exchanges, who of course can be hacked. So so it's always a little bit tricky. That's part of my story in my film, so so we are kind of getting rid of middleman the banks and the governments but we're creating other like dependencies, like new elites, crypto elites, right, that we have to trust on so and there's always human nature and greed, you know, all these all these kinds of elements that make the film

Alex Ferrari 44:09
right now if you if you purchase a Bitcoin, it needs to stay in a Bitcoin bank, it can't It can't just live in a in an account, like, how does that work?

Torsten Hoffmann 44:18
Yeah, good question. So So you go to a central service like blockchain.com or coinbase.com in America, but the the common practice among people who are really into this technology and movement is to then store it, just by yourself. So literally, you can just basically remember your your past quote unquote, code, which is 12 security words, or you write down your, you know, private, private key, and do not rely on a third party. So that's the whole point of it. But most people don't do that. Most people keep it on exchange and those exchanges can be act

Alex Ferrari 44:56
a god and so that's the problem. So and that's where that guy who's got like, 70 million 100 mil whatever, whatever ridiculous amount that he because he started off early on, he lost his number and he lost the hard drive that had that key and can't get out. So he literally has it's impossible for him to get that back. He can't call anybody, there's no, there's no support number. So there is that there are those risks involved? Like Imagine if you had $100 million worth of gold in a vault that can never be opened? is essentially what he's got?

Torsten Hoffmann 45:32
Sure. But I mean, look, if you try to tell me that gold is better, you know, it seems like the people that try to leave Venezuela with with lost savings in a few gold coins, they get stopped at the border and the police takes take the gold away, right. And with Bitcoin, you can cross the border with 12 words in your head, right? Whether you're in North Korea, or in America, it's permissions right? So it's always pros and cons.

Alex Ferrari 45:57
It's there's, there's there's pros and cons with all of it. And also like, you know, you can walk into it, you could basically go anywhere in the world right now with a gold coin and get into cash, because it's gold, if they can prove it's gold, gold is accepted pretty much everywhere on the planet. Bitcoin isn't just yet. So there's pros and cons for all but you're right, like, how are you going to walk out with, let's say $60 million. With a gold you're not walking out. You're not walking out with it unless gold skyrockets to $100,000 an ounce, you're not walking out with that much gold. But you can walk out with that with goodwill.

Torsten Hoffmann 46:36
And look, the other element here. That's why it's big, becoming bigger and bigger. Right? It's the the idea that all the governments including the Fed in America are printing trillions and trillions of dollars and look, whether you're a fan of wars or social security or COVID really funny, no matter your politics, there's just you know, the the chart of money supply is just going like exponentially up. Right? And in that environment, the value proposition of a very finite amount of Bitcoin that actually gets less and less every year is the appeal. That's why it has become sort of like a digital gold. Potentially. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 47:11
yeah. And there's mining right now there's people mining as we speak, trying to find the other Bitcoin out there. And in there's, there's, like I saw, I mean, I've saw your documentary, I've seen so many others, that there's farms, there's like mining farms, that is just use an obscene amount of power, just to just constantly hack, hack, hack until they find a hack. But you know, mind mind, mind, too, they get a Bitcoin, and they get so many bitcoins a day. But if you get three bitcoins a day, that's 180 grand in current, a current market, but it costs you maybe 50,000 pounds worth, like, it's obscene, like, you know, the infrastructure, all that stuff. Yeah.

Torsten Hoffmann 47:50
And that's actually a good good note, because common criticism, a valid criticism against Bitcoin, that is a blockchain that runs on this proof of work system. So you need powerful mining computers, which consume a lot of energy. However, you just mentioned, that the trick, the trick is you need to be ultra efficient. The more energy you have, the more computing power, the more of these Bitcoin rewards you're going to find. That means those mining farms are usually located with the price of energy is cheapest, which is wind farms, solar farms, geothermal, so they are basically not not in the city. They're kind of where the power generation is. And the cheapest power generation nowadays is solar in I think, 120 countries in the world. So yes, it is energy intensive, but it is a little bit greener than maybe, you know, the Skype call that we use.

Alex Ferrari 48:39
Oh, it's and it's also probably greener than mining for gold. That's for sure. Yeah. I mean, mining for gold has become so so difficult and so, so expensive, and just hurting me because I have to go dig deeper, deeper, deeper, deeper, deeper to find it. So it's it's a fascinating conversation. I think we've gotten a little bit off topic, but I think we're but but this is this was a really good conversation. There was one thing I wanted to ask you, there was another movie you did. And we talked a little bit about this before we got on called marketing the Messiah that you did as a production. And you were telling me that that didn't that didn't really find its its home yet. Can you talk a little bit about that, if you don't mind?

Torsten Hoffmann 49:18
Yeah, sure. So marketing, the Messiah is a film that I reached out to a podcast, a history podcaster. And he has a good network and a good platform for history nerds, I would say. And so he made this film as a director and writer, his first film, and I was the producer on the background, a background, and I had actually high hopes for the distribution of it. Because I knew it's a it's a topic that might be interesting to people who want to know about the real story of the first couple of years of Jesus's kind of work before you know the whole religion was built around it. But for some reason, I mean, look up, it's always hard to kind of understand it completely. But the film was too long for TV. I mentioned that earlier with with cryptopia. Also, maybe too controversial for for American audience especially. So we have lots of 10 nine stars on IMDB, but also quite a few zero and one star. So maybe maybe that also hurts the distribution. And so what we're doing now is Avon, so we are on IMDB TV, we're doing a little bit of Amazon and now YouTube. That's that's the way to go for this one.

Alex Ferrari 50:27
Right and, and the thing is, when I saw the trailer for it, I was like, I first of all, I'm fascinated, I can't wait to watch it. But because I'm into that kind of stuff, I'm like, I love marketing. And I'm like, arguably, Jesus is one of the best marketed you know, people in history. I mean, you can't argue mean literally, when the Vatican is hiring Matt, Michelangelo to paint? You know, I mean that that was the marketing of its day. So I was fascinated with it. But when I saw it of the Who the hell's the audience for this? Because people who are believers and follow Christianity are not going to probably want to see it maybe if you will, but not a lot. And then who is the audience? I think that's where you kind of fell into that, like, Who? Who are we targeting here? It's a little bit, it's not as easy as cryptopia, which is like, okay, now, here's my audience. Here's the thing that it's done. Where this is about.

Torsten Hoffmann 51:22
Yeah, at the same time, I mean, it's, it's so tempting to, to, like make these assumptions or like, analyze it after the fact. But I mean, I just recently rewatched searching for sugar man, right? This totally unknown 60 singer. Nobody has heard of a fantastic story. Fantastic Film won the Oscar. But who would have thought that before you make us who is the audience for this? Right? It's three people in South Africa. Right? And the biggest hit of the of the year? So it is a little bit tricky. That one, but yeah,

Alex Ferrari 51:55
it but that's, I think the thing that caught it's just a comeback. It's like a comeback story. It's it's rocky Yeah, with with a musician, you know, and the whole search in the hunt. And it's like, oh, my God and all that. It's just such a such a brilliant if you haven't guys haven't seen searching for sugar, man, please do so. But But you're right, though, it could have just fallen flat on its face. And, you know, it could have been huge in South Africa where he was huge. And that's essentially it. So you really don't know. But I think something like we're topia is so specific, and you really understand who that audience is. And if there's, I'm going to bet better than not that it's going to reach an audience because that audience is very hot right now. It's very interested. It's kind of like if you were, if you did an audience as you did a documentary on compuserve and the future of AOL, like that probably wouldn't, wouldn't hit really well today. It might have hit well, years ago, but it wouldn't hit well today. So anyway, um, I appreciate appreciate you coming on the show. Let me ask you a few questions. I asked everybody. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Torsten Hoffmann 53:01
Yeah, just start start with something small start on tik tok start on Instagram or YouTube. That's the nice thing about our our age that you don't really need much budget or much skill, so to speak, there's so much available for free.

Alex Ferrari 53:14
What lesson took you the longest to learn in the film business or in life?

Torsten Hoffmann 53:23
I'm going to give a different answer here I am on like a counter intuitive one, my partner Michael told me about cryptopia that don't be afraid to put your personality in the film and on the film. So is kind of the journey of me asking these people controversial questions about you know, my own confusion, my own excitement. And I became, you know, the host of the film, which was never the idea originally, but I think it was a good decision. It helped the film and it helped my profile right and and hopefully will build my platform later. So I think that one took me a long time to learn.

Alex Ferrari 54:04
Yeah, put it that's the only secret sauce you have brother is you like that you are the NFT of of yourself. Like there is no you are non fungible, you are non fungible, there is no other you in the world. So that's what as artists, that's the only currency we have in our art is to put ourselves into it, and express who we are, because

Torsten Hoffmann 54:26
that's what what Americans do so much better than the rest of the world are much better at self promotion. And I wasn't perkara it was for me it was the right decision. And I assume for many independent filmmakers it will be and if you look at those big Netflix deals nowadays, it Konya not just sell like a $30 million documentary to Netflix or something. I mean, this is all about like big egos big personalities, but the big platform and and yeah, you have to be someone to get those kind of big deals, right.

Alex Ferrari 54:53
Yeah, I haven't gotten mine yet. But I'm I'm hoping for my $30 million deal with Netflix. It's coming soon. It's coming soon. And lastly, a one are three of your favorite films of all time?

Torsten Hoffmann 55:03
I'm gonna with matrix I'm going to go with inside job, Bob the financial crisis and you know, just something Star Trek, something like positive sci fi kind of, you know, like everything is good humanity's striving towards a better future.

Alex Ferrari 55:22
I think I think the combination of matrix and inside job is a perfect, perfect utopia origin story. It's really really great. Torsten, thank you so much for being on the show, man. It's been a pleasure having you and I look forward to seeing your next few next films and what's up what's going to happen to our whole business with this technology. So I appreciate you shining some light on it man. Thank you so much.

Torsten Hoffmann 55:46
Thanks, pleasure watching you work and you grow and we'll be in touch maybe next year and talk about NFT's or whatever

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20 Cinematography Terms Everyone on a Film Set Should Know

Camera terms aren’t just jargon for one exclusive department to throw around like code as they shout at each other across the set. Everyone working on the film should be privy to them and use them day-to-day in order to get things done efficiently. Here are 20 camera terms that every crew member should know:

AKS – Abbreviation for accessories. Often labeled on the boxes of camera equipment.

Camera Left/Camera Right – The direction of left and right in relation to the direction the camera is facing. Usually opposite the subject’s left and right.

Check The Gate – Called out after a take that the Director is satisfied with, for the 1st AC to check the internal part of the film camera called the gate. They check for any signs that may cause the film to be unusable in that previous take. Nowadays, as we use digital media rather than film stock, some people use the term ‘check the chip’ as there is no film gate but a camera hard drive. The 1st AC may playback the last take on the camera to ensure there were no technical faults.

Cowboys – A shot that is framed just above the knees of the subject.

Crossing – Called out as you walk in front of the lens if the camera operator is lining up the shot. Courteous to let them know you will block their shot momentarily but are passing through.

Cutaway – A shot of something that isn’t directly related to the action sequence. E.g. A cutaway shot of a clock, as a student rushes down a hallway late to class.

Dirty – Something is in the foreground of the shot. E.g. An actor’s shoulder or some set dressing.

Eyeline – Where an actor looks relative to the camera. This may be adjusted on different camera setups to ensure the shots can be cut together smoothly.

First Position (Ones) – The place where an actor starts in the scene. They may then have a move to a second position and so on.

SHORTCODE - SHORTS

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Jam – To sync something, usually the camera to the sound time code.

Marks – Colored tape, sausage-shaped bags, or t-markers put on the ground to help the performers know where to stand. It can also be used as focus marks or dolly marks to help the camera and grip team through their camera moves.

Master – A camera setup that runs the entire scene and keeps all characters in view. Often used as an establishing shot of the scene. Most directors will begin by shooting the master coverage of a scene and then move onto the closer coverage of singles, etc.

MOS (Mute On Sound or Mit Out Sound) – Rolling cameras without recording sound. MOS is written on the slate so those in post-production know there are no sound files to sync with the takes.

Off Screen – The actor is not in the camera frame but is still required to be on set for an eyeline or to deliver their dialogue for the other actors.

POV (Point of View) – A shot taken from the view of the subject. Normally what the actor is looking at but can be the POV of any item. E.g. An animal’s POV looking up at its owner.

Second Sticks – The first clap was missed so the 2nd AC does a second clap and calls “second sticks” so the post-production team can sync the sound and image effectively.

Singles – A close-up shot containing just one character.

Slate (Clapper Board) – The clapper board used by the 2nd AC’s to put an ID on each take so the editor can easily see what scene this shot is for and what take it is. It is also used to sync the sound between the camera takes and sound rushes during post-production.

Spraying – When spraying any aerosol such as hairspray or water around the camera, it’s considerate to call “spraying” so the camera department can either cover up the lens or turn the camera away from where you are so nothing goes on the lens.

Tail Slate/End Slate – The clapper board is added at the end of a take rather than at the beginning. The slate is turned upside down or 90 degrees to identify it is a tail slate.


Matt Webb is the author of Setlife: A Guide To Getting A Job in Film (And Keeping It). He is an Assistant Director with credits including The Great Gatsby, Mad Max: Fury Road, Hacksaw Ridge, Pirates of the Carribean and Alien: Covenant.

Setlife: A Guide To Getting A… is a must-have guide designed to prepare you for what happens on a typical day on a film set. Matt Webb’s no-fuss, practical tips are essential reading for anyone chasing a career in the film industry. The book is available for $25 from Amazon.

IFH 472: How to Make Money Selling Indie Feature Film NFTs


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If you’ve already listened to my last episode on NFT, then this one will feel like a bonus. But for those of you who haven’t, we explored a new territory this week in indie film and blockchain. My guests today are the filmmakers, Trevor Hawkins, and Nathan Kincaid, pioneers of the first-ever film sold as a non-fungible token, Lotawana. Which will be released soon. 

A monotonous life has pushed the unfulfilled Forrest (Todd Blubaugh) to a voyage of self-discovery by living amongst nature aboard his sailboat, Lorelei, on an alluring Missouri lake. Soon he catches wind of the rebellious and free-spirited Everly (Nicola Collie) and their idealistic dreams align. This thrilling and thought-provoking romantic journey follows the wanderlust couple as they are confronted by the challenges of their unconventional chosen path.

The Kansas City natives have worked extensively in commercials and short film production; often in partnership. 

Their decision to put Lotawana up as an NFT as an experiment was encouraged after a crash course on NTF from Trevor’s brother-in-law. They were trying to figure out the distribution and financing of their next film amid COVID. Nathan and Trevor saw the path as a viable stream to generate revenue and attention for their indie film. In thirty days they have seen a return of a fifth of their production budget. 

There’s no denying that NTFs might just become a brave new world that will change the playing field for all creatives. Especially for digital artists. It’s unclear what the future of NTFs will be, yet is an adventurous avenue for filmmakers to explore, interpret and utilize in ways that add value to their art and its ownership.

The guys and I didn’t talk only NFT in this conversation. You will hear a bit about the soul-crushing challenges of shooting commercials, the filmmaker’s ultimate best investment – lenses, and much more. 

Enjoy my informative conversation with Trevor Hawkins and Nathan Kincaid.

Alex Ferrari 0:00
I'd like to welcome to the show Trevor Hawkins and Nathan Kincaid, man How you guys doing?

Trevor Hawkins 0:09
Great, man. Thanks for having me.

Alex Ferrari 0:10
Oh, thanks. Yeah, I'm so I'm so happy to have you guys man. It's it is uh, you know, you guys came on my radar a little while ago when when I saw something about NF T's fly by and I was like, wait a minute, I've heard of these NF T's some guy just sold an NF T for $70 million, or some craziness. And I'm like, Oh, wait, there's some filmmakers being involved in this stuff. I'm like, let me let me check out what you did. And I saw some articles that were written about you in your film. And I was just like, well, I got I got to talk about that I got I got I got to get in there. So from the moment that you we actually book this, to the moment that we're actually recording it I of course have done obscene amounts of research into NF T's Bitcoin blockchain and the whole ball of wax. I mean, I've seen every little every documentary ever made about this, the subject matter.

Trevor Hawkins 1:02
You might be more of an expert than we are at this point.

Alex Ferrari 1:05
But your interview you but but the thing is, though, but you guys are in it, like you guys are in the weeds on it. So like all I have is just knowledge but you guys are like in the weeds doing stuff and I want to see how it's working out for you and everything. So before we jump into NF T's blockchain and all these kind of buzzwords that everyone's hearing out there, how did either both of you guys get into the business?

Trevor Hawkins 1:29
I just picked up a camera in high school and sort of filming my friends skateboarding and wakeboarding and love the skateboarding wakeboarding videos more than I liked the actual sport. I fell in love with the art bit and then in high school, I went to my buddy, his name's Brian Freeman's house. And in one week, we watched in his parents basement, Requiem for a Dream, Donnie Darko and A Clockwork Orange and Blue blew my mind. That's a heavy week. Is that a week? I just like? Yeah, and one week and that was I wasn't even really that familiar with cinema at that point. And so it obviously knocked my socks off. And I've been in love with it ever since. And I've been chasing it ever since.

Alex Ferrari 2:07
Wow, that's that's a heavy week, brother. Man. That is a heavy, heavy week, man. How about you, Nathan?

Nathan Kincaid 2:15
Yeah. In high school, kind of similar. I was a kid I had a camcorder in the trunk of my Pontiac Grand Damn.

Alex Ferrari 2:23
Well, well played, sir. Well played. Yeah.

Nathan Kincaid 2:28
I had to go to college. I was like a family stipulation. But here in Missouri, there was no film program. So as a communication major, felt like it just weren't getting straight, scratched, cinematic itches. So I was shooting for the athletic department. I was up on a scissor lift, filming football practices. I was under the hoop shooting basketball games. And then I decided to go to film school for a master's degree. And LA is always it's funny that we're here talking about what we're doing with NFT's from Missouri, because I've always kind of had a side I at Los Angeles, just from reading the trades and down and dirty pictures was a book that made it really impact on me. Yeah. Yeah. So I was like, and then I've always been a huge Coppola fan. And so I went to film school in San Francisco. Yeah. And then it was during a time when digital was really starting to take over. But at the school I was at, they were like, digital will never take over film. And says like, okay, so I learned film and came up in that, and which I'm grateful for, you know, in hindsight, because it makes you pre visualize and be more prepared and all that stuff. But then after school, I didn't want to take the well paved road to Los Angeles. So I came back to Kansas City to kind of figure it out. And it really wasn't soon after that, that I met Trevor. And I found a kindred spirit and someone else who really was like, serious about doing this, and then we just started getting in the local game. And then eventually that led to a lot of commercial work. And so we both currently make a living in this market doing commercial production. Yeah, that's what we've been doing for the last decade basically.

Alex Ferrari 4:26
And I've said it on the show a million times. I think some of the best best ground you can work to get experience is commercials for film because you work the of course you learn the craft, but it's the politics man, the politics, the politics of the set, how to handle clients how to do that. It's just walks right into like how to animate investors that I know producers. If you get into the studios, how do you how do executives and how you balance everything, egos and all of that stuff. So it's a great training ground for for all of that. But now, tell me about your film. If I pronounce it correctly, Lotawana,

Trevor Hawkins 5:03
you nailed it.

Alex Ferrari 5:05
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So tell me about your film Lotawana

Trevor Hawkins 5:10
yeah so, Lotawana is a story about a young couple that live on a sailboat. And they're sort of, I guess, over a bit fed up with their superficial materialistic lives they've been leading. And so they sort of recreate this world for themselves. I don't sailboat. And maybe because of a bit of lack of preparedness, that world comes crashing down on them. And so the whole movie is sort of a thought experiment to the viewer of, can we rewrite our own rules of modern existence? Or does society operated a way for a reason as sort of like, ideally, idealism meets realism, kind of, it was born out of the idea that at one point, I was gonna leave for a few years to sail around the world with one of my friends. But that would mean I'd have to give up on my biggest hustle, my own indie film, hustle, my dream of becoming a filmmaker and making films. And I'd have to give up all of that momentum. And so I had this moment where I realized that I had to stay home. And I had to give up on that, like adventure dream to sort of keep my filmmaking dream alive. And so I'm just really interested in that interface. They're like, Can we still live authentic, unique, fulfilling lives while still sort of, you know, like, doing commercial work doing Wendy's commercials?

Alex Ferrari 6:29
to stay alive, bro. Hey, hey, listen, man, I started off in commercials as well, man. So I completely understand it. So it's, yeah, sometimes you're like, if you ever done tabletop? Yo, yeah. Oh, tabletops. That's, that's a whole other level of crazy with the client to like, you know, can you move? Can you move the cup this way? It's not listening properly. And you're like, what am I doing with my life? Like, why am I here? Like, it's not even, like, Really? But then you look at the check. You're like, Okay.

Nathan Kincaid 7:04
I gotta piggyback that man. We had a moment one time and it was slow motion, like fried onion ring bits being and people were analyzing, like, which way they bounced when they hit?

Alex Ferrari 7:15
Yeah, yeah. Oh, no, we lost the production company was that they lost the account, because the catch up, looked too bloody in the shot, and they in no one caught it. And like they did this kind of like this kind of sweep across. And they're like, yeah, this director has no idea how to shoot catch up. And you're like, Wow, man, this is? This is this is a thing? I don't understand. Yeah. This is maybe maybe I should make a left turn here.

Trevor Hawkins 7:45
And I could go down this dark road with you for a long time. No,

Alex Ferrari 7:48
no, no, no, no, this is not this is not this. We're not here to talk about the horrors of working in the garage. And how soul crushing it can be sometimes sometimes it's fun. But it's it's a bit, there's an off balance there. But um, so when you guys finished your movie, I'm assuming you looked at the distribution landscape and said, well, there's only money to be made here during the traditional distribution ways. I'm sure all these distributors are going to just give us lots and lots of money going to be completely transparent with everything. And we should be able to recoup all of our budget and then some so enough to be able to make another movie. Is that what the conversation was like? Yeah. Yeah. So that's

Nathan Kincaid 8:31
Trevor, you know, we got all these amazing offers. We're just I guess we should just close your eyes to pick one.

Alex Ferrari 8:38
All we see is money. all we see is money in like complete transparency everywhere. Like what Netflix absolutely take two of those. Like, it's, I joke about this for everyone who's listening. If it was, this is their first episode. I joke about this because it's the satis situation that we have as filmmakers is to deal with getting our films out there. So when you look at the landscape, and obviously it wasn't probably what you were looking for, because last I checked, Brad Pitt doesn't star in your movie with Leonardo DiCaprio, right? So it's not yet. So it's a tough sell. It's just looking at the movie. From a trailer standpoint. It looks by the way stunning. It's gorgeous. It's beautifully shot. The story sounds fantastic. But in the marketplace, this is going to be it's an interesting sell. It's an interesting sell to get it out there into the marketplace. So what made you guys that said, You know what, let's, let's bet everything on going down a different road.

Trevor Hawkins 9:36
You want to take it, Nathan?

Alex Ferrari 9:38
for everyone for everyone listening and not seeing their videos. Both their faces froze for a second smiles came up on their faces and they just said Where do you want to go? You go you go fight? Well,

Nathan Kincaid 9:48
I mean, what we've been saying is and everyone that's listening to this podcast is gonna is gonna I think align with this and that is we're in this crazy world now. Where It's easier to make a movie than it is to get anyone to see it, you know. And it's just not the same as it was like there are perceived barriers to entry that there would have been to get a film camera and to get film and put it crew together that way. So basically, we've kind of had our own thematic journey as we've gone on making this movie. And we've always done everything. We've always taken every step of the way to think outside of the box. We've considered the traditional options everywhere we could, but we also step back and we're like, Okay, well, because we're not a big machine. We have nimble opportunities to do things that larger budgets and entities wouldn't be able to have. So if you go all the way back to the beginning of the movie, we were entertaining some like presale offers, but those were contingent on us getting well. Not Brad Pitt, but certainly name market. marketable talent. Yeah, we would love to work with Brad, by the way, because we're all from Missouri.

Alex Ferrari 11:09
Hey, Brad. Hey, Brad, if you're listening, we're all willing to work with you, sir. I know, it's tough out there for you right now, Brad. But if you're willing, any three, or any one of us in the West,

Nathan Kincaid 11:19
bucket list, homie. And so basically, once we saw that we could do a pre sale with a certain amount of budget with certain talent, that also then I'm putting together the schedule. And I'm starting to tell Trevor, like, so we can afford, like, 20 day shoot, maybe. And we're thinking, Man, this is our first movie, we want a little breathing room, you know. And so at a certain point, we said, okay, you know, we're going to, we're going to find our own talent. And once we did that, that opened up the playbook for us. And so for example, we decided to shoot on these lakes every season, you know, not just three weeks consecutive in one month that gave you one look, suddenly, our playbook opened up. And it was like, Okay, cool. Let's shoot a week in February when it's snowing, then let's pick up in late spring, let's do you know, and fall and everything. And so, for us, by the time we got to the, to looking at the ways to get this movie out there. Well, first of all, also, there's the whole era of COVID. We were so excited for film festivals. I mean, that's it as an indie filmmaker, that's your reward, kind of Sure. To meet people like yourself and and other filmmakers and to talk about it and stuff. And so that stuff didn't happen. And then basically, when the NFT possibility showed up, like this little dangly sparkly thing. Well, basically, Trevor and Trevor's wife, who's the CO producer with me on the film, their brother in law, had been looking into what NF T's were, and this is like second week of March. And so he was talking to Trevor's wife about her maybe releasing this album, she's been working on musically as an NF T. And then it just the conversation evolved from there. And they spent a weekend looking into it. And then they kind of pitched it to me. And I was just like, Oh, yeah, I see. I see this, what this is, and so, and again, because we weren't, we didn't have investors that we had to get permission from. We just had to decide on on our own if this is what we want to do. And it's it's just like, Well, what do we have to lose? Really?

Alex Ferrari 13:45
So, so Okay, so we've been talking about NF T's NF T's Can you explain to the audience, what is an NF? t?

Nathan Kincaid 13:52
You can do that part, Trevor?

Trevor Hawkins 13:55
Okay. So the way I understand in ft as of the last month and a half is they exist on the blockchain and the blockchain is one irrefutable code that exists in one unit all around the world. And it exists across all types of computers that are always cross referencing and cross checking each other. So if anybody tries to counterfeit the blockchain, it's essentially impossible because they'll get caught. And I don't know the repercussions of what happens. They just can't,

Alex Ferrari 14:24
I can't I can't, I just can't because it it ruins everything else afterwards. Yeah,

Trevor Hawkins 14:29
sure, sure. And so what that's done is, throughout time, if an artist were to paint a painting, and then hold it in their hands, they can take it to a gallery and the gallery can quantify that and say this painting is worth this much because there's only one, but enter the age of digital art where if you create a piece of digital art, whether it be a cat meme, or a movie like us or an album, or a digital painting, you can recreate that digitally an infinite number of times, essentially losing value to everyone. One of the copies there's never been an original. There technically was but it doesn't matter to people because it's non verifiable. And so what happens with the blockchain is, since you can have one blockchain and one blockchain only if you upload your art to the blockchain in a process called minting, then you all of a sudden have verifiable proof that cannot be broken. That that is the original piece of art that has ever existed. So if I were to make a cat meme, and uploaded on to the blockchain as an NF t, then that will forever be the first cat meme that I have that that there's ever been a reason by you bite me. And then the reason why that has value is just like, why does anybody care about hanging original art in their house versus just a replica, everybody feels the value of the authenticity there. And so for the first time ever, digital art has had an authentication process of originality. And so that's why this whole thing is sort of stormed and flared up as all these digital artists are running into this space. And we've been really lucky because we like Nathan said, when this whole thing kind of exploded, we were standing there with the recently completed indie film in our hands. And nobody had done this with an indie film yet. And so we just kind of took the plunge. Like Nathan said, we weren't beholden to anybody, I actually mortgaged my house to make the movie. And so we own the movie outright. Nathan, myself and my wife, Cory. And so we didn't have to ask permission to anybody, and we just threw it up as an NF T. And we have a few different NF T's available. Some of them are copyright NF T's we have a collection of those where if anybody purchases, one of our copyright, NF T's, they will actually become one of the shareholders have the theatrical cut of our movie and join in with decision making, and profit sharing and everything that goes with owning a cut of a indie film. And then we have a world premiere NFT, which we're really excited about as well that if anybody purchases one of these world premiere NF T's, then they're going to be the first people on the planet to watch the world premiere of this movie, like Nathan was saying, we don't have festivals right now with COVID. And the ones that we've been accepted to have all said they're just doing a digital thing. And we haven't been stoked about that. And so this is essentially our festival run, as Nathan's been saying, and what's kind of cool about it is that forever world premieres have been a localized thing and a physical city with physical people going into physical theater. And now anyone from around the world could join our world premiere, we're also offering a couple other smaller NF T's just entry level things like frame grabs in the movie. And we've got a list of mile long of drops that we plan on doing here in the near future. We're excited though, because what we found is that our specific NF T's are turning into what they're calling legacy tokens, because like you said, we were the first through the door, that now people are caring about the first NBA one, the first Ilan must tweet the first, pretty much every type of NF t that comes to the door. And we've secured our place in history in this whole new frontier. And we're honestly, we're not experts on the blockchain. Whenever my brother in law told us about it, we frantically googled what an NFT was just like everybody else. And so we're kind of making it up as we go. But we feel really confident. And we're really stoked about where things have come so far already with it. Because I mean, just in the last month or so, we've made back a fifth of our production budget. And that's just within within the first month. And what's sweet about NF T's is after you sell in enough NFT and then subsequent purchases, like say, if that buyer were to resell that to another buyer, you can set your what's the word

Alex Ferrari 19:03
percent

Trevor Hawkins 19:04
percentage to where you would get, I think the industry standard is

Alex Ferrari 19:08
10%,

Trevor Hawkins 19:09
which is what we went with, we'll get 10% of resale resells down the road. So as legacy tokens raise and value, we will we will see money coming from that down the road. And our end goal is to turn this around and be able to use this whole new marketplace and this whole new frontier to fund our next film that we've already got written and ready to go.

Alex Ferrari 19:32
So Lego so legacy tokens are essentially the rookie card of of the artist essentially. So this is the Mickey Mantle rookie card. Or

Nathan Kincaid 19:42
it's not just the rookie card of a player. It's kind of the rookie card of a sport. Well, you

Alex Ferrari 19:47
have a you have a you have a rookie card of the sport because you're the first out the gate, doing something like this. But then being the one that gets that not only That legacy token, but of Trevor's first film out there, and I, you know, I, the way I've explained it, to some people is like, imagine if, you know, you had Quinn Tarantino's NFT for my best friend's birthday, which is the unreleased first feature he ever did, you know, or the Reservoir Dogs NFT.

Trevor Hawkins 20:25
Right.

Alex Ferrari 20:25
And all of a sudden when quitting blew up that NFT would be extremely valuable. So when you're purchasing an NF t from an artist, which is what's going on here, you're betting not only on the NFT, but you're also offering something else. And there's, there's multiple different kinds of NF T's, which we'll talk about in a second. But you're also betting that Trevor is his next movie is going to be the Avengers, obviously. And then, and then and then he wins the Oscar for the Avengers first time ever, and then you know, things like that, and then all of a sudden that NFT turns into a much more valuable proposition. I know you're he's he's blushing By the way, everyone he's actually blushing right now. But that's it, but that's the thing you'd like, you know, if you're, if you're buying NFT's from Sundance Film Festival, guys and gals, you know, how many of those if we would if there was NF T's in the 90s? How much would add burns Richard Linklater, Spike Lee or you know, Steven Soderbergh all those all this videotape. Yeah, yeah. All those NFT's what would they be worth today? You know, if there was something like that's a woman when I was looking into NFT's, the first that I just couldn't grasp it, I couldn't grasp it. I'm like, Okay, I get it, I get it. But then it just like, Oh, it's a rookie card. Got it. Okay. And then every movie is another season that he's playing in the maybe that that movie, so let's say your next movie blows up. That's the year that you won the MVP, and you won the World Series. You know, but other seasons, maybe other movies don't pop that way. And they're not as valuable because of you know, but it like in any filmmakers career, some movies are much more valuable than other films, depending on

Trevor Hawkins 21:59
I think that's a great analogy. I haven't heard of put that. That's actually quite, I said thing.

Nathan Kincaid 22:04
I've been a baseball card one and then also you think about like, amazing Spider Man number one or

Alex Ferrari 22:09
something comic? Yep. Yep. Well, it's like, it's like a, it's like in comic books, I was a comic book, I've been a comic book collector, most of my life, you know, there's different issues that have more value because of what happens in the issue. So the first the first appearance of venom and the first appearance of the Green Goblin or whatever that you know, the different things are when Spider Man suit turns black, or these kind of things, these events make those issues more More, more popular, and hence more valuable. Same thing would happen with NF T's. So you already have a rookie card scenario, you have your amazing, not amazing Spider Man. Number one, you have amazing fantasies number 15, which is the first appearance of spider man with a lot of wanna, right now. And you're also like, oh, by the way, you're also the first comic book, that's a legacy token. So that's essentially what you guys have in this thing. And then as as your careers continue to grow the value of this not only from the point of view of being the first comic book, and the first appearance of Trevor, as a filmmaker, and, you know, as a creator, or creative creator behind this, and forgive me, if there's other creators, I'm just using you as an example driver behind this, but then the value goes up. But then there's sometimes you might have in 1941, like Spielberg did, you know, he had Jaws, Close Encounters 1941. And then all of a sudden, 1941 might not be as valuable then Raiders of the Lost Ark came up, and then that NFT is gonna explode as well. So that's the kind of, that's the way I see it in my head. And that's the only way I can make any sense of it all. But it's extremely exciting. potential, and I feel that no one's really figured it out yet. No One No One everyone's still trying to figure it out. Literally, by the day, I've been having conversations with distribution guys about figuring it out. They're all trying to figure out how to crack the nut. They all know something's cool here and they all know is the future. But um, like I was just thinking I'm like, this is a no brainer for like Disney. This is no brainer for like, you know, you're gonna buy the Avengers on it. Yeah, I'm sure that like they I'm sure there's going to be an Avengers, you know, you know, or the next Black Panther. Can you imagine an NFT for Black Panther? You know, after Chadwick unfortunately passed, like the value of that, like, Oh my god, how much I mean, what and even before his passing just the explosion of what that movie was, imagine if there was an NFT for that works. I think the NBA guys have been doing that the best the top shot, guys.

Trevor Hawkins 24:28
I mean, there's we've been fortunate enough to talk to some like development companies in ft world right now. And they're talking exactly like you the actual people writing the code and developing this world right now are saying to themselves that we don't know where this is gonna go. We don't know if we're gonna be the ones right now. All these tech companies are rushing in like, the gold rush of 19,000,049 whatever year that was 1490 whatever. Right. But yeah, right now No one knows what's going to happen. It's a brave new world. And we're lucky enough to be the first ones out of the gate and entire film industry.

Alex Ferrari 25:06
That's insane. Man, that's absolutely insane. Now with NF t, so you have there's different kinds of NF T's. So you actually are selling? Basically, points, essentially, you're selling like points on of the film through distribution. And is it only for the theatrical one? Or is it for all of the distribution of your film, because I know Kevin Smith is releasing his next movie, and giving, like literally just selling and auctioning off his entire distribution rights to his films. So what is yours?

Trevor Hawkins 25:34
So yeah, we have a few different types of NF T's and just how we kind of took a note from when we were researching, we kind of took a note from Kings of Leon, when they released their album, and Grimes and a few other folks, when they released their music, you also get these bonus things with them. And so we kind of took a note from their style. And in addition to the, to the NFT itself, the NF T is literally only a chunk of code on the blockchain. So if you buy a normal NF T, that's really all you're getting, you don't own the copyright to the piece of art, you don't own copyright to anything else. But with us, if you buy one of our copyright, NF T's, then the bonus you get with that is an actual share of the theatrical cut of the movie. And so it's you would own that cut of the film. So wherever that theatrical cut goes off and lives in the world, you would own a part of that and own be entitled to any profits to that. The counterintuitive part is that the value of what you're purchasing in ft, is really just the NFT itself. Because as everybody knows, becoming an investor and owner and an indie film has never been a get rich, quick scheme. And

Alex Ferrari 26:52
really quickly, how do you how do you make? How do you make a million? How do you make a million dollars in the film industry? You start off, you start with a billion. Oh,

Trevor Hawkins 27:03
exactly. And so the day if and when lotto Juana turns a profit, then absolutely all of our shareholders who have purchased these NF T's will be entitled to that. But really the value, and the cool piece of this whole bit is just owning that NF t itself. And then, and like I said, the other collection that we've got is the world premiere, the bonus you get with that world premiere NF T is that you'll be the first person to ever watch that movie in the public world premiere of a lot of one. So that's kind of like a ticket stub. The NF T is really the ticket stub, and along with that ticket stub, you get to go to the event.

Alex Ferrari 27:40
Now do you actually Alright, so you don't actually put the entire movie up on open sea, which is the platform that you guys chose to use. It's not like the whole movie is up there somewhere for someone to watch, you're actually just selling rights at this point. So you're selling rights or access to the film in one way, shape, or form like and because you're buying it on the blockchain, or you're buying an NFT. It's, it's there, and it's yours. And you can't get rid of it. And it's done. But there's other ways of going about it. So you're selling distribution, basically selling points to at points and event like, you know, points, basically points in world premiere. So you're selling like a couple different things. But you could also sell it as an art piece. So you could say there is 100 Limited Edition. And FTS, have a lot of Juana as an art piece that you can sell. And if you and there's only going to be 100 ever, so they're like limited edition prints of the film. And there's only 100 of them. So if you had again, going back to that analogy, El Mariachi, the only one of your number, you know, you have one of 100 El Mariachi NF T's. What would that be worth today? So that's another possibility and selling it more as an artwork thing. But there's other the other possibility of selling distribution rights. And also there's another possibility of raising funds for you from a crowdsourcing and crowdfunding and crowdfunding through it as well, as you've heard of that as well.

Nathan Kincaid 29:04
Oh, yes. Yeah, we've been we've we've been thinking about that route for a long time. And, yeah, it's a good point, when you're, you're saying about making an art piece, you know, you think of like certain, say, a criteria on collection DVD that has only a certain run. And we we thought about all that. So you have to you have to remember when, when we were getting this thing minted on March 16, you know, and we're trying to move fast, because we don't know who else is out there trying to do this, right. So you're really quickly trying to decide what we want to do. And you know, we quickly decided that we wanted to give it give, put this real world value on it as well. But we then saw an opportunity. And this is where it gets exciting because this is an experiment as well. So when we when we made the copyright NF T, that opens up this kind of thought process this, you know, you've opened a new organic road of thinking here. And so now we're like, Okay, so what happens when we get an offer for distribution? Do we then and what and where we're getting now and working with lawyers on making real is like, you know, then do those copyright NFT holders get go to a password protected site, and they get to see the deal points, and they get the vote, as well. That's,

Alex Ferrari 30:34
that sounds fun. That's good. That sounds fantastic.

Nathan Kincaid 30:38
Right. And so I know there's I mean, I went to film school, I know there's a lot of film school people out there that don't get to be involved in these kind of conversations. And and they'd love to be, you know, and it could be it's exciting. So it

Alex Ferrari 30:50
is exciting. But also, I think you're in this is, again, being the first one through the door, you're the one that gets shot, or first, whatever the hell you get the arrows in your back. The thing is that you're living in the NFT. And the rights are in the NF are in the NF t but you're still dealing in the in the real world, and like the legacy world of distribution and the legacy world of, of how money is made and everything like that. If the entire system was on blockchain, if everything worked on blockchain, then it would be all automatic. It'd be an automatic payment systems, you wouldn't even have to worry about it do we do we'd be doing smart contracts? Essentially, well

Trevor Hawkins 31:29
are we have a digital strategist who actually probably should be on this call with us. But he he's much more knowledgeable about this whole space. And he's telling us about platforms that already exist, that you can just sort of throw a lot of one as a project onto and then divvy up all this stuff, we actually have plans of releasing the film lot of one a properly to the entire world to view later this year, like fall, winter time. And as Nathan said, In the beginning, we had offers that we weren't stoked about for pre sales and initial financing. And then we decided to go our own route, we had our own production struggles that those are stories all in themselves that we had to overcome. And then after the movie is completed, we had distribution offers that we weren't that stoked about as well. And so

Alex Ferrari 32:16
can you can you can you tell me what those were, I love hearing these, I love hearing these fantastic offers. Well, hey, without names, without names with companies, yeah,

Trevor Hawkins 32:25
without dropping companies, it was just sort of everything you'd expect for an indie film, we had a handful of distributors that were like, yeah, we'll throw you up on all these digital platforms. And then we expect you to see this much money, and they give us these breakdowns of all this stuff. And then we looked at the other slate, we looked at their slate of films that they're currently representing, and maybe they'd have one or two gems in there. But for the large part, they're like, we call them like spray and pray distributors, where they just like, throw a million movies in the shotgun. The

Alex Ferrari 32:57
shotgun distributors. Yeah,

Trevor Hawkins 32:58
yeah, exactly. And so we just did not we put too much time and too much work and too much blood, sweat and tears in this film to just settle for something like that. And we're, we're proud of the film that we made. And so it felt a little bit like settling that we kind of knew that we wouldn't get a lot out of it. And so that's what when this whole NF t thing came along. And we didn't have something we were super stoked about on the table. We'd said, What the hell, why not, and it's paid off for us because we're getting to talk to you, then how many indie films out there would have loved to have conversations. I mean, we've talked to indie wire and Screen Rant and the 30 others or maybe not 30, maybe like $15 or something like that, like, so many indie films would just love that opportunity. And like I said, we're already starting to make money back. So we feel like it's been a success so far. And looking forward to the way we released the movie publicly to the world. We've got some ideas that we're really excited about that is even going to sort of try to transform that space a little bit as well, like be and do something that not everybody's doing and actually getting eyeballs from around the world to watch the movie.

Alex Ferrari 34:06
That's, that's, that's awesome. And it's it's such an exciting thing. And one thing that we kind of talked about, but I want everyone to listen and to understand is that with NF T's that 10% that you're talking about that you've set in the NFT that you know, if someone resells that and resells it, that's revolutionary for an artist that's an absolutely revolutionary idea because it Van Gogh paints a van Gogh and gives it to a gallery and the gallery pays 500 bucks for it. Then Van Gogh dies and everyone thinks that he's a millionaire, or if he doesn't mean doesn't die. He's still alive and everyone thinks, oh my god, this guy's amazing. They could go off and sell that for $60 million, and the artist gets nothing, not upset. But with NF T's the artist continues to generate revenue with every resale so if the artist becomes more popular if the artists become you know comes becomes more expensive. The artist is continuously getting a passive revenue stream For the rest of his life, and I'm not even sure if it continues to go on and on for eternity, essentially, you know,

Trevor Hawkins 35:08
absolutely right, just how Macklemore and sturgill Simpson, when they first started releasing their own music, they kept it. They didn't want to go through the label system because of how many people had their hands in the honeypot. And they decided, hey, you know, this new digital world and new emerging technologies? Why don't we just do it ourselves this way. And they're better off for it. And so now that the film industry has kind of taken a note from the music industry, and a lot of different ways, where we're really kind of letting ourselves be the guinea pigs for all these new avenues of the film industry.

Alex Ferrari 35:39
Yeah, I mean, it's pretty brave what you guys are doing? I mean, because I know, I mean, looking at the film, I don't know what your budget was. But looking at the film, it doesn't look like it was done for five bucks, five bucks. I mean, it looks like it costs it cost a minute. I mean, it costs a bit it costs a bit to make so and you've financed that, you know, you refinance your house and got the money which I've yelled from the top of the mountain in this podcast, don't ever refinance your house to budget, an independent film. I've said it a million times. Because it's usually the first it's a risk. But is it a risk that you're willing to take? So you know, hopefully, I don't think that it's going to you have I say that because you also have a career, you have revenue coming in. But I've seen filmmakers who do that. And they are hoping and praying that this is the only revenue that's going to keep their family alive. And I've seen, I've seen divorces, I've seen every I mean, because that's just stupid. But you're taking a calculated risk. So it's okay. I will, I will accept that you need my acceptance. But I just want everyone to know that yes, that that makes that will take it makes all the sense in the world. Now one other thing that you were doing with, with NF T's as you started putting out stills from your film, as I am assuming art pieces, those are being treated as art pieces.

Trevor Hawkins 36:57
Yeah, so each still that we put out, we put out 20. So far, when we first listed it, they're about five bucks a pop, but a theory has gone up a little bit. So they might be around 10. Now, I don't know what those are. Yeah, sure. And those are just meant to be just little art pieces, entry level things that if people are excited about what we're doing, they can jump in and buy some of those as well. Over half of them have already been bought, there's only nine of them left, so and

Alex Ferrari 37:21
then you're only doing one or one at a time. There's only one NFT personal.

Trevor Hawkins 37:27
Exactly. So and we released 20 stills from the movie that we're stoked about, and I think 11 of them have sold so and I'm not even sure if anybody's even relisted them for sale yet. So those are digital art piece collectibles that people are already owning, and they will always in forever be the NFT owners of that, then there will never be any more. Those are sort of like one off things.

Alex Ferrari 37:50
That's so awesome. Like, I can't believe that. That's like, I don't need to say like, I can't believe that's working. Like, like, I can't believe it. But it makes sense. I mean, if you're into this, and you're if you're really excited about doing it, it makes all the sense in the world. And you are it's just such a you could everyone listening, you have to understand the potential here is massive for the right project for people who know what they're doing how they do it. It's not going to be perfect for everybody. But it's another potential revenue stream. Even if you go traditionally, you could still do NF T's. And I'm already hearing the distributors are adding that into the contracts now like it's this includes NF T's you can't we own everything. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Trevor Hawkins 38:32
The music industry is being flipped upside down right now in real time from this. And there's music companies out there that are trying to be the big the next big Spotify for the blockchain world. And everything's changing in real time, because it's sort of a user generated space where you can be the owners of all of your content as where Spotify has been. I'm, I don't really have a dog in this race. But Spotify rips off musicians, you know? Absolutely. Absolutely. They don't pay what they should be paying for all their plays. And artists are getting tired of that. And so entered blockchain and all these new technologies and people are running over there and just like streaming upset the world of like CDs and traditional music purchasing. Now, blockchain is upsetting the existing streaming paradigm. And the film industry forever has had an existing physical DVD, VHS paradigm that got disrupted by streaming. And now, the film industry will probably take a note from the music industry, as it usually does. And the blockchain in all of these new interfaces could be next. And like I said, we just happen to be the first out of the gate. I mean, yeah, like with NBA top shots. I

Alex Ferrari 39:43
mean, those guys jumped on so quickly, and they're doing so well with those NF T's. I mean, in there, the first kind of major organization to really take it seriously. But it was just a no brainer, like it's a it's a it's a sports card, but you're buying highlights. You know, you're you're buying You're buying Imagine if you're buying a Michael Jordan highlight, like you own that highlight, like that's, that's pretty cool. That's a pretty cool idea so if you owned El Mariachi you know as as an art piece pretty cool bragging rights man I gotta, like, you know, like, and like people listening like I got I got a lot of water, a lot of wantagh's, you know, NFT like I'm the I bought the first independent film ever put out on on NFT that's bragging rights. And that's the same reason why you buy an original and put up on the wall, as opposed to buying a poster 100% right. Now, now you also chose I was gonna ask you about gas. Next is a gassing or SP gas fees. Yeah. So explain to the people like if the open sea is the platform you're using, they're arguably one of the biggest platforms for NF T's, right? Yeah. So explain what a gas fee is. And what was your gas for you to put this stuff up, if you don't want me to ask him.

Trevor Hawkins 40:59
Open see is operates a little differently than some of the other platforms you can mint NF T's on and you only pay your gas fees and percentage to the platform which is open see once you're in empty cells. So you can list 100 or 1000 nF T's you don't pay a dime until they say something. And then they just take a percentage of that and what gas fees are. It costs money and human hours to keep to make the blockchain exist and keep going. And gas fees all those are as money going into the honey pot of developers that keep this thing running. So nobody's really making a ton from what I understand. I'm not an expert on the blockchain. But these are literally just like your taxes that you have to pay to keep the roads going.

Alex Ferrari 41:47
And for people it's through my understanding of the blockchain in order for every transaction that goes into the blockchain, and by the way, there are multiple block chains. So everyone thinks that there's just not the one blockchain there's multiple different block chains by you know, aetherium is one. Bitcoin runs on another blockchain, but that's crypto and we'll get to crypto in a minute flow and there's a bunch of different blockchains and then there's now people building block chains internally for companies. blockchain is a concept. But Ethereum is arguably the biggest most well known blockchain to do other tack on other businesses and platforms and things on so it's like the highway that they've put on where you could put you can establish businesses and houses and things like that. So from my understanding with with blockchain hold, I just lost my train of thought because this is tough man this is rough stuff

Trevor Hawkins 42:36
blockchain well, and you're you're getting into the point where you're gonna start schooling us we might be learning some facts from you here.

Alex Ferrari 42:46
Okay, okay. So So blockchain Okay, now just just came back to me. So blockchain every time that there's a, a, a transaction, it needs to be verified. And by the people who verify it are miners, people outside that are all around the world, trying to break down the algorithm, the complicated math calculations to verify that the thing and put it into the blockchain, and there's so many block so many transactions that go into one block before it goes back on the chain. And this is all being done completely decentralized. Without anyone those gas fees, because in the way that why miners do that is because they get paid. And how do they get paid as generally with crypto. So if they're on the Ethereum, they get a little bit of aetherium crypto per transaction that they break, and then everyone is racing, to be the first to break that or to calculate that with their computing power. So they get the they get the money. So there's 1000 people trying to millions of people trying to, to be the first to to do the math. That's why you need bigger and bigger computers faster and faster internet more and more power. And that's how this whole thing goes. So with Bitcoin, Bitcoin, which we'll talk about a second is its crypto, which is a it's an actual currency, every transactions that happens on that is a bit slower because it's getting tougher and tougher to break these codes because there's a limited amount of Bitcoin ever that's going to be mined, where theory there is not a theory that goes on and on and on. It was built like that, because it's not arguably wasn't supposed to be a cryptocurrency. It was supposed to be a platform where people can do that. But now aetherium is exploding. As of this recording, I mean, it's gone up like 25% in the last week or two. But that's the world of crypto now. How much do you guys know about crypto and can you talk about cryptocurrencies a little bit and how that whole works?

Trevor Hawkins 44:38
I'll put it this way. I feel like everything you just said, we've heard from Tucker, our digital strategist who's on our a lot of on a team. And I feel like last time is explained my eyes kind of glazed over a bit and exited the room somehow in my brain. So I feel like that again, a little bit right there. So I think you've reached the end of our

Alex Ferrari 45:01
College. Nathan, you've been very quiet Nathan. Yeah,

Nathan Kincaid 45:05
yeah. Hey Tucker, Tucker, somebody gets Tucker on the phone.

Trevor Hawkins 45:09
filmmakers from the beginning. And that's where our heart and our passion is we got experts on is

Alex Ferrari 45:16
no worries, that's I wanted to get to that point, we've reached that point. And that's fantastic. And I'm glad we've got that. But it's the crazy artists that are the ones who make this stuff possible, man is that, you know, it's, it's pretty remarkable. Now,

Nathan Kincaid 45:31
I'll just throw in there real quick, man, if you're an indie filmmaker, I mean, at some point, you're an entrepreneur as well, like, you're always looking for a way to just get it done. And like your ad says, You're always hustling, you know, you're, you're, you're trying to find a way. And so, you know, this was a way that presented itself to us. And we, you know, we took it. And basically you, because I feel that an independent film that has maybe a bigger star involved or a bigger, you know, no offense more marketable director or something else that can bring an audience, someone who has an existing audience, whether that be a YouTuber, a podcaster,

Alex Ferrari 46:10
or like a, you know, an ED burns or Spike Lee, or someone who has an existing audience out there, I feel that it's gonna be a lot easier for them to generate revenue because they have an existing audience. So that's why I still find it so fascinating with you guys. Because I'm like, well, there's no stars in it. This is his first film. So you're generating this from basically all the press that you've been getting about this, because you guys are the first one through the door, and people are like, this is cool. And now this is new and, and you're generating revenue from this, which is honestly genius.

Trevor Hawkins 46:41
Oh, well. Thanks,

Alex Ferrari 46:43
dude. I did I did I see I've seen everything, bro. I've seen all about indie. I've seen every tactic on how to hustle some money for an independent film. And that's why I reached out to you guys. I was like, Oh, no, no, like, I gotta I gotta get these guys on the phone.

Trevor Hawkins 46:56
Yeah, I mean, we're never in a million years when we have thought this is what a majority of our conversations would be about when lotto Juana started getting attention. And we're actually really excited. We believe in the film itself. And we're really excited to have conversations about the actual movie whenever we do release it later this year. Yeah, yeah, we'll take all of it we can get right now. It's just such a, we're so lucky that we even found ourselves in a situation,

Nathan Kincaid 47:22
right. So many examples in the past, though, like, even when Morgan Spurlock did supersize me, they got these like fat Ronald McDonald dolls, and we're handing them out at Sundance. And that got people to see the movie. And then they said, Oh, that's a good movie. So, you know, yeah, we're not just a gimmick. But you know, this market is so oversaturated if you if you can find a way or think of a way to get through the fray, then if you're really an indie filmmaker, you're gonna have to think of something you got to find a way

Alex Ferrari 47:59
Oh, there's no question about it, man. I mean, you that that's the thing, you've got a quality product, man, look, I've seen Look, if I would have seen the movie, honestly, I'll be I'll be straight up with you guys. I read the story. I read the stories and read the articles. But if I checked the trailer out, and when I looked at the trailer, if it was like some sort of garbage thing shot on, like, you know, a VHS camera or some stuff, and like, if it would have been like, that would be like, No, I can't have him on the show. There's, there's a quality product here. You just, yeah, no, I mean, just from did I see so much, man, I talked independent filmmakers on a daily basis. I'm sent everything every day. So I see so much stuff coming through. So when anything like this comes through my in in front of my radar, I can see quality. So I'm like, Okay, these are these are filmmakers, they know the craft, they can put something together looks really good. So I knew there was quality there. But trust me, man, if it was, if this was like a garbage thing, I would have not had you guys on the show. I'd be like, Look, I'll find another way to talk about NF T's but there's a quality movie here. So it's not a gimmick, because that would have been a gimmick. Like, you know if, if a if a trauma film does this, which I'm sure Lloyd will be doing this any moment now. But if like a you know, like a trauma film, make something like this, which are those like Toxic Avenger films, which he should because they're going to sell out. But a trauma esque film that didn't have the cachet that trauma does, I would have been like, no, not so much. But this is quality man from the poster to the from the poster to the trailer to the website. Now you guys have a solid, a solid presentation of a film and I say I don't take that very lightly. Because most independent films have absolutely no idea how to present themselves how to market themselves how to get themselves out there. So that's another reason why I wanted to get you guys on the show.

Trevor Hawkins 49:45
Well, that means a lot man, especially since you live in breed this world. That That means a lot. That's huge. It's Nathan and I've been hitting our heads together for long enough now because I mean, we're We are proud of the film we made and I mean we'll See what the world thinks of it. We're really excited to hear the good with the Bad's. But I mean, it. We're not famous Nathan and I aren't famous, our actor and actress aren't famous. And we did make a drama that is pretty, not by the books. And we, when we were starting out, we thought we wanted to do something different. But really what happens is is double edged sword where you kind of get penalized when you're in our situation, because we're not famous. If we were famous doing some different people eat it up instantly. Or if we had a top like an alias star in our movie, then people go to see it in a heartbeat. But since we don't have any of that stuff along with the ride, we've got to come up with something crazy like NF T's just to get people to even look at it.

Alex Ferrari 50:46
Right? No, absolutely. And that's the problem with the marketplace today. Like you honestly, anything you said, it's so beautifully at the beginning of this conversation is like, there is no barrier to entry to make a movie now anyone can make a feature film you. You've just cobbled together basic understanding of how to craft the film. It's not hard to do. I mean, look at it. It's hard to craft a good film. We all know that. But the technical aspects of making it it's not the cost is not there anymore. Like you couldn't look at my last couple movies I made for under 10 grand each. And they were sold around the world and God and Hulu and all this kind of stuff. So but those were those kind of stories, those kind of movies. But now it's it's getting it's about getting it seen so and what a film school still teaching, they're still teaching you how to make no.

Nathan Kincaid 51:32
Yeah, I mean, now all the information I got for $50,000 in debt, you can find online. So

Alex Ferrari 51:40
listen, I was I was 20. I was $20,000 in debt, I graduated in 90, okay, something 90 something. So, and I the best, the best two things I learned in film school is how to wrap the cable. And because that's an art form, how to wrap cable properly, and how to make a good cup of coffee. And that got me my first few jobs. That other than that, my teacher, my post teacher said, they'll never edit broadcast quality on a computer. Ever. That's what he said, I remember that. So clearly in my in my head. I was like, wow, okay. And I learned on film, too. I learned on film and on online systems like the CMS 3600. I know you how old you guys are younger than you much younger than me. So I'm like probably calling you talking gibberish to you. But like the online tape, tape, the tape and all that kind of stuff is what I learned on. And the first ad that I jumped on was the meet when it was called Media Composer. And it was like 20 to 60 by 260 or so. Like it was like,

Trevor Hawkins 52:42
resolution was horrible. I'm gonna type stuff.

Alex Ferrari 52:45
Know what I mean? Because the block like no, like,

Trevor Hawkins 52:47
we used to have this editing machine in my broadcasting class in high school called a Casablanca and it was like a VHS to VHS editing machine. I don't even know how it works.

Nathan Kincaid 52:59
We had that too. That was one of the original, like nonlinear editing systems. But then I went so I had that in high school. And then I went to Well, I went to undergrad, then I went to grad and they still have flat beds in the basement. Yeah, they were like cutting for real for real. And, and then the digital technology was I remember like things like p two cards and the the media just kept changing every other year. And it was like, I was like, man, I don't want to spend my time trying to keep up with what the fastest memory card is. Like. So I just went all in on the film and studying the classics and studying the industry and stuff like that wouldn't change.

Alex Ferrari 53:39
The lenses changed so fast. The cameras changed so like now you know now like 8k What is it? 10k or 12k that it's like it's obscene. What is going on right now? And I just, I it's like when I'm ready to shoot something I'll look I'm like Alright, what's going on? What do we got? Alright, let's we'll get picked that we'll pick that we'll pick that and the only thing you should invest in ever is lenses because that doesn't change. You still need good glass no matter what the sensor is. But I mean all you need this guy and I love vintage Personally, I love the nice vintage glass. And I'll geek out for you guys if you if you're into into glass. My last film I shot with a Canon optic 5.8 wide is the little brother to the 9.8 which Kubrick shot Clockwork Orange and shining with all those wide shots that they don't fisheye.

Trevor Hawkins 54:28
Wow,

Alex Ferrari 54:29
that's Yeah, I got it. I got it. I put it on the 16 millimeter sensor of the Blackmagic Pocket. The Smart the first Blackmagic Pocket I shot a movie with him spray. It's fantastic.

Trevor Hawkins 54:37
I'm a little jealous of that I shot a lot of wanna on it was cell finance self shot everything and all we could afford was canon L series glass on the EF mountain that we shot on on

Alex Ferrari 54:49
dude all my stuff's on the EF mount EF mount are are 4/3 four thirds, micro four thirds. Oh yeah, I was. Oh yeah, it's fine, dude, it's fine. I shot my last two features. We're on On, on the Sigma 18 to 35 portrait lens, which is a fan, plastic lens, it looks gorgeous. And it's fine, dude, it's fine. People get all caught up with that stuff. And at the end of the day, imagine, imagine this conversation we're having right now, right? And then there's arguments in production like, No, we need this camera, we need this lens, we need this, this this. But when it's done, they're like, now what? Now what I? Where do I get

Trevor Hawkins 55:23
a sculptor friend of mine who says it's so well, he says that the best painters, the best sculptors in the world, can break a twig off of a tree and make a better piece than everybody does got all the finest toolkits available. And that's kind of how I feel with cameras as well, um, I don't keep up. I'm a dp as well, I shot a lot of one and I do commercial stuff. And I don't keep up minute to minute, like you were saying, because I feel like it's more about the artistry of what you put in front of the lens. You gotta know the lenses do. But yeah,

Alex Ferrari 55:54
at a certain point, you're just like, do I need 55k? Like, I don't need a 55k resolution, which we're going to go there eventually, at a certain point you like, how much more you're going to

Nathan Kincaid 56:05
broadcast it against the surface of the moon? Because the kind of surface you're getting?

Alex Ferrari 56:11
I mean, so I want to get your opinion, guys. What do you think the future revenue potentials are with NF T's and independent films? Do you think that is going to become a mainstay? Do you think it's going to be? Do you think it's going to become an oversaturated marketplace again, just like crowdfunding was when because when crowdfunding showed up, the first few films that crowdfunded did extremely well, but then everyone just got burned out on it. So do you feel that NF T's are going to go the same same route?

Trevor Hawkins 56:36
That's a great question, man. And that's the one that everybody's wanting to know right now. Because, sure, I would believe that some of the prices of some of the NF T's have been sold for those astronomical numbers are a bit inflated. But I do believe that this is a new frontier that's here to stay. Like I said, it legitimate legitimizes digital art for the first time in history. And this people aren't going to run away from that this is a new frontier, maybe things will get more valuable. Like if you get in early, maybe you'll be one of those folks that things just raise in value, which is we've already seen happening with us, and just the short amount of time. But yeah, maybe eventually, the digital art space is gonna get so flooded that it's not, we never even thought of it as a get rich quick scheme, we were mainly just looking to get a lot of water out into the world. And this seemed like a great way to do it. And if we could, the end goal would be to fund our next film, like raising money to make a movie number two that's sitting on the table ready to go. That's That's the dream right there. And I don't know, I mean, your guess is as good as mine. I bet I could see a lot of folks running into this space, but it's still so green, it'll be green for a while it will be Yeah, that hell no.

Nathan Kincaid 57:52
Some problems, but it doesn't solve all the problems. And there's still a market saturation problem with film content. There's too much content out there. And I don't know where you're, you know, I'm not advocating for gatekeepers, because because that that can be frustrating at times. And that can be politicized and monopolize. And, and so you know, yeah, it's tough. It's like, if there's a way here, there, there's a revenue model here that exists and that were going to help find, but it still doesn't solve the problem of, well, what happens when you have more films being made, and people can watch? You know what I mean? To me? And, you know, what, I don't know, I think maybe people need to be a little harsher. In some sense. It's like, you know, just because you can make a film doesn't mean that

Alex Ferrari 58:56
you should

Nathan Kincaid 58:56
worthy of people watching it or that you should. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 59:01
Look, it's Look, it's the same thing that happened. And I saw this happen. It's when, when editing systems became affordable, and everyone had a Final Cut, when final cuts showed up, and started disrupting avid because when avid was avid was around, it would cost 50 grand minimum to get into a digital editing system. But then at Final Cut showed up in like, you know, maybe 434 grand you you're up and running as an editor and then all of a sudden, my rate from 50 bucks an hour, 75 bucks an hour as an editor, a freelance editor had to drop down to 25 or 30, because I had a 500. Other Yahoo's who had no idea how to edit anything, but they've they've completely saturated the marketplace. And then I'm like, I'm competing with a guy who just got out of film school, who has barely any understanding, but he says he'll do it for 20 and the producer is such an idiot that he goes, sure I'll let up. I'm gonna pay this guy. Obviously the money makes more sense. But then after he screwed it up, they usually come to me anyway. They're like, Oh, this guy's bended up Can you do, but that was the problem. So it's like, it's great that everyone has access to this stuff. But it's it's the solution and the problem all at the same time, because now it opens up opportunities for people who would have never had opportunities to do it. And then, but it also domitian diminishes opportunities for filmmakers who should get it? And I've had that conversation with some of the guests I've had on the show. Like I talked to Edward burns and not to be a douche ego drops names, but but when I was talking to Ed burns about I go, do you think brothers Macmillan would make it today? And he's like, probably not his color. Do you think Clark's would make it today? Do you think El Mariachi would be seen

Nathan Kincaid 1:00:35
or slacker? Right? Right? But see back then those guys, you know, Kevin Smith and Edward burns, and like even Christopher Nolan with some of his early movies, they had a production barrier to entry, that they really had to want it. They really had to have the dream and the passion and they found a way to get it done. So then they broke through to this space where there, there weren't as many. And so you know, that's what sucks now is that you're actually your barrier, your barrier to entry or your gatekeepers are the distributors. But you have this whole tear of them that are letting everything through that right. You know, I don't know, how do you get? How do you separate the wheat from the chaff? How does the cream rise to the top today?

Alex Ferrari 1:01:20
Yeah, well, yeah, because there's distributors out there like, like you were saying, the throw everything against the wall and see what sticks distributor, they're bringing all the they're they're hustling all these kids and these guys in and gals who are putting these movies in, and they're like, Oh, I can make a quick 5000 off of that. And the filmmaker will never see a dime ever. I'll make a quick 5000. So if I can get 10 of those. Well, that's 50 grand this month. And the way I structure the deals is I never have to pay the filmmaker and after that if it makes any money, whatever, but it probably won't. And that's the and that's and they and they have so much content. And so many films that it's so it's it's it's just it's it's a tough man, this is a tough nut to crack brothers. And this is a tough man.

Nathan Kincaid 1:02:00
Maybe it's tastemakers. Maybe it's going back to the 70s when you had a Pauline Kael or something like that, Roger Ebert

Alex Ferrari 1:02:07
or Roger either

Nathan Kincaid 1:02:08
Yeah, exactly. Roger was doing an amazing job. You know, maybe it's Alex Ferrari, he's got it.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:16
Yeah, I'm not that guy. I'm not that guy. But the but the point is, though, that there has to be something and and there are I mean, look, Criterion Collection does a fantastic job. You know, and a 24 does a fantastic job, but look at look at a 24 slate, they do one movie a month, if that a year, they're the Sundance of distribution at this point. You know, right. If you're lucky enough to get picked up by 24 You know, you're going to get seen and people are now watching an A 24 film because it's a 24 You know, it was like Miramax back in the day, like old Miramax released it must be must be pretty decent, if you know if that's been released. I don't know if that world exists anymore. Man. I just don't i don't think i think it's just too many, too many streaming services, too many options. It's, I think the next the next frontier for filmmakers, is not only to be able to make a good movie, but yeah, you need an audience. You need an audience that follows you from from film to film. And that is the next frontier because filmmakers who are successful are the ones who cultivate audiences, and then also figure out how to generate revenue from multiple revenue streams, which is what I wrote my book and all that stuff by being from shoprunner, about creating multiple revenue streams and NF T's are such a great alternative revenue stream that could be potential. And again, it's you could arguably, crowdfund you're moving on NFT sell distribution rights on NFT. And also art pieces on NF T's. And there's three general, those are three revenue streams that are completely outside the system, completely outside the system.

Trevor Hawkins 1:03:50
To make that yeah, that's, that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to be the case study that can recoup our production costs and turn that around and start funding the next film in real time. That's our end goal with this whole space and NFT world.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:06
That's awesome, man. Well, I'm gonna ask you a few question, guys. I asked all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Trevor Hawkins 1:04:16
I know you want to go first. I know what I would say. Go for it. love what you do. Because to me, there's a big difference between wanting to make good movies and wanting to be the person that's the filmmaker. There's an artist there on one side of it. And then there's kind of like a character type on the other side. And I've in my own personal career. I've never really said this publicly anywhere. So this isn't offensive to anybody. But I've met people that I can tell. They don't really care what the movie is they're making. They just want to be the filmmaker. They want to be the person in the chair. They want to be the they just want to be that person. And I think that the real value that anybody's gonna get out of this career, this industry is gonna be what they create. At the end of the day. My wife is a musician. And she's so self conscious about, oh, what if nobody likes this album when it's getting ready to come out. And I'm like, I don't care if nobody ever hears this album, except you and I, because at the end of the day, when you're 70 years old, All that matters is how you feel about that album, her her entry level to play the game of writing music is a lot lower than making a film. Yeah, that's why we all have to play this lesson, we all got to have our own indie film, hustle. Because if you need an army to make a movie, you actually have to raise a lot of damn money to make a movie. And so we have a little bit different rules there where we have to go inside the industry enough to make it work for ourselves to even be able to make our art, which is kind of infuriating at times, but that's why I say the biggest the biggest piece of advice is love your art love what you do, because at the end of the day, when you're dying, that's all you're gonna have. I just did an arm where am I proud of the pieces that I made? Or did I just make schlocky things to get attention? Oh, no. And before I let Nate before Nathan, I

Alex Ferrari 1:06:14
want to just piggyback on this, what you just said, there's so many filmmakers, and I've met them who want to play the part of the filmmaker wants to play he wants to be or she wants to be the rock star, direct, they want to be turned to let's just call it what it is. They all want to be Tarantino, they all want to be they all want to sit in the chair and tell people what to do and have an walk the red carpet, their red carpet filmmakers. They're not real real filmmakers. They're red carpet filmmakers, they just want to take the pictures, and you know, live the lifestyle. But they don't actually want to do the work. And those guys and gals get they get weeded out. I've just I've been around a few. I've been around a little longer than both of you guys. I've seen it. It happens, the business will weed those guys out because they don't last they can't. It's too hard. This is too hard of a thing to do. You could fake your way, to a certain extent. But after a certain while, if you don't got the goods, I don't care if your last name is Spielberg. Anyone can help.

Trevor Hawkins 1:07:09
Right, right, Nathan?

Nathan Kincaid 1:07:11
Yeah, well, and I'll say something different, because I actually was gonna say something quite similar to that was basically make sure this is really what you want to do. Because it is so hard. But then so something else beyond that. It's probably something people have heard before. But it's like, if you really are committed to this, and you really want to do it, then study the history. Study the craft, look at who came before you. And yes, change the game. But you know, no, no, the groundwork that got you here. And I understand people they watch Citizen Kane, and they're like, okay, you know, I don't get it. I've seen that before. Yeah, but nobody saw before then. You know what I mean? And so it's like, knowing the knowing the evolution of this medium, and not going into things like 3d or, you know, surround screen or something like that, and all that's fine or whatever. But really the medium of cinema and the evolution of juxtaposition and just the craft, like if you're gonna get into this, do something cool. So the rest of us that are also trying to do this can be inspired to like, my favorite stories are like, are like how, after Nolan made memento, he still couldn't get a good deal. And Soderbergh stuck his neck out for Christopher Nolan and was like, yo, you should really use these, you know, I love that kind of stuff. So that would be my just just No, no, the craft no the other artists that came before you and that are in the game and do something different. Do some awesome.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:48
Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life,

Trevor Hawkins 1:08:55
trust your team, that was a big one for me, whenever I was always a one man show and then a lot of water came on and having or when we'd made a lot of one I had a crew of 10 and I was just so in the mindset of I had to do everything and Nathan was constantly reminding me no delegated man hat. Let me do this. Let Cory do that. Let like that was a big lesson for me to learn. And then, most recently, the lesson I just learned was lean into yourself, which is a weird thing to say. Because when I wrote a lot of wanna, it was kind of a love letter to Terrence Malick movies, and I live in a rural Lake town. I'm at the real life like a lot of water right now. And I didn't think that that would be something viable to be appealing to like the rural laketown the rural America vibe would be that appealing to a lot of people in the film industry. But lately, the script I've just written, leans into it. 100% and I'm feel like I'm learning right now in real time to try Just my own unique experience and lean into that more instead of what I think other people want to see.

Nathan Kincaid 1:10:08
Yeah, well, and that just, this is why we work together is because what I was gonna say was, you know, the lesson I learned was you can't do it alone. Now, I learned that, you know, a long time ago, but when you're when you are, you know, a teenager or you're your young 20s and you're full of ego, and you're trying to muster up all the power to be a filmmaker. Like, it's gonna take a team, you know, so looking for those other people that you vibe with that you can that you can create with, like, that's so important. Always keeping an eye out for those people,

Trevor Hawkins 1:10:44
and life partners you can trust.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:48
Amen, guys, I mean, if you can find people that's why like Ron Howard and Clint Eastwood, they worked with the same crew for the last 30 years like they This is like, Ron Howard won't shoot a movie until his first ad is available. Like he just like, I'm not, it's this is the guy like I don't have to worry about anything. I know. It's gonna get taken care of. I do the same thing. I have a group of friends of mine and people I collaborate with all the time. I'm like, I just know I don't have to worry about that. When you have them on the on it. It's It's so valuable. so valuable. And three of your favorite films of all time.

Trevor Hawkins 1:11:20
Oh, and you want to go first, Nathan? Oh, man,

Nathan Kincaid 1:11:23
I'll try to go quick without thinking too much. Trainspotting

Alex Ferrari 1:11:27
urraca and the Godfather. Nice.

Nathan Kincaid 1:11:33
so cliche the last one, but I really do.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:36
And I'm gonna and I'm gonna argue that it's godfather one and two, we just put them together. It's fine. It's fine.

Trevor Hawkins 1:11:43
He's for real. He just had a daughter and we got him a godfather onesy for his daughter.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:49
solid, solid.

Trevor Hawkins 1:11:51
For me, it's easy, because I keep a revolving top 50 movies of all time. Wow. My favorite movies of all time lists. And so when I fall in love with the new movie, it's heartbreaking to throw one of my top 50 off just to keep my different level. That's

Alex Ferrari 1:12:07
a different level of Geek man. I appreciate that. That's completely devil. Like, I mean, the for the geek. I mean, and this is a guy who has a life size Jota sitting behind him. That's a full level gig, man. That's good. I'm impressed.

Trevor Hawkins 1:12:17
Yeah, I gotta stop 50 that I'm pretty religious about and my top three are tree of life, Assassination of Jesse James and No Country for Old Men.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:27
There is a theme there. There is definitely a theme in the filmmaking styles of those films. So I can see what a lot of was gonna be like. But will there be but will there be somebody killing people with Eric Eric? or something? Like, from no country from all that? What does that call? Like a bolt gun or something like that? Yeah, the

Trevor Hawkins 1:12:47
air compressor stun gun thing.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:49
So amazing. What an amazing film God such a great film. Guys, it's been a pleasure talking to you, man. It is. I'm so impressed. And just awesome that you guys are doing what you're doing man. And and anytime I anytime I got someone on the show who was the first one through the door on anything. And it's so rare nowadays to be the first one through the door and anything in our business. It's like, it's a tough, it's a tough thing to get. So I'm, I'm humbled that you came on the show to talk about it and share your adventures with us. Please let us know when you make your first million off of it. And then and then and then you're always welcome back. So thank you guys so much, man. I appreciate it.

Trevor Hawkins 1:13:29
Alex, thanks so much. This has been awesome if anybody wants to check out the trailer.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:33
Sorry, Jesus, of course.

Trevor Hawkins 1:13:35
Yeah, no worries. Yeah, everybody wants to stay up to date with what we're doing. You can purchase NF T's from our website, you can watch the trailer, you can see our posters, you can stay up to date with our releases. Like I said, we're going to be releasing the movie later this fall. It's just a lot of one a movie calm. And if you just Google a lot of one a movie probably any way you can think to spell it. You'll probably find it.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:56
And I'll put that I'll make sure to put that yeah, it's right there for anyone watching. It's not hard to spell Lotawana. So I'll put that in the show notes as well. Thanks again, guys. I appreciate it.

Nathan Kincaid 1:14:08
Thank you, Alex.

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IFH 471: The Complete Guide to NFT in Independent Film (and How to Make Money)


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So today we are going to go down the rabbit hole of NFTs. What the heck is an NFT? It is a Non-Fungible Token. Basically, an NFT is a completely original digital file or a digital collectible which is registered on a blockchain ledger just like any cryptocurrency.

But unlike cryptocurrency, like Bitcoin or Ethereum, an NFT is totally unique and because it lives on the blockchain it verifies who is the rightful owner of this one-of-a-kind digital collectible file.

In February 2021, digital artist Peebles sold a digital artwork for $69.3 million at auction. You heard correctly almost $70 million for a digital file. The founder of Twitter, Jack Dorsey, sold his very first tweet as an NFT for $2.9 million.

It took me a minute to understand what these things were and then it clicked. In short, they are digital collectibles. NFTs essentially are digital baseball cards, comic books, Garbage Pail Kids, Funkos, or Pokemon cards. They are just a digital version and in many ways better because you know exactly how many copies exist.

I’ve already had conversations with Hollywood executives that told me that the studios are coming very soon and they are coming hard. Hollywood is beginning to see the value of NFTs and when they come in it will be a feeding frenzy. Imagine Marvel Studios, Harry Potter, Star Wars, or Pixar NFTs. It’s going to be insane.

Could Oscar® winning screenwriters create NFTs for their screenplays? Could a popular filmmaker create NFT short films? Would you buy an NFT from Chris Nolan, David Fincher, Aaron Sorkin, or Quentin Tarantino?

The NBA is selling “moments” as NFTs through NBA Top Shots. Basically, they are selling highlight clips as NFT and are killing it. Fans of the NBA are gobbling these NFTs as fast as they are released. I really think there is now one doing NFTs better than the NBA right now.

Musicians are having amazing success selling NFTs directly to their fans. This is turning the established music industry on its head. NFTs are essentially killing off the middle man. No more label, just a direct relationship with the artist’s fans.

The other amazing thing about NFTs is that the artist continues to make money on every sale of the NFT forever. Let me explain. When an artist creates an NFT by “minting” it. Minting is the process of create the digital file (NFT) and placing it on the blockchain. The artist then sets the residual percentage every time the NFT sells.

So if I mint a short film and sell it for $500. I get $500. Now, if the new owner sells it 2 years from now for $10,000 I get 10% of that sale. Every time that NFT is resold I get my cut. All transactions are transparent. All on the blockchain.

So how can filmmakers make money? There are so many options because NFTs are in their infancy. Everyone is trying to figure out how to use them in indie films.

Indie Film legend Kevin Smith is selling the distribution rights to his new horror anthology Killjoy. He has even created his own NFT Studio called JAY & SILENT BOB’S CRYPTO STUDIO PRESENT SMOKIN’ TOKEN NFTS. Here’s some info on Kevin’s new endeavor.

Since their first appearance in CLERKS over twenty-five years ago, Jay and Silent Bob have been selling out to the world of collectibles! From t-shirts to toys, the stoner duo’s likenesses have been stuck on both tacky and tremendous trinkets treasured around the globe!

Now Jay and Silent Bob blaze into blockchain with crypto-collectibles called Smokin’ Tokens!

From Jay & Silent, Bob’s Crypto Studio comes the first in a series of NFT’s that celebrate the many movies of New Jersey’s least likely heroes. The inaugural Smokin’ Tokens commemorate the pair’s latest cinematic adventure,

JAY AND SILENT BOB REBOOT – featuring amazing art by fan-favorite  John “Captain RibMan” Sprengelmeyer!

You gotta love Kevin Smith. He’s always looking for new ways to connect with his fans. His first collection of NFTs almost completely sold out. There might be something here boys and girls.

Some other ideas are:

  • Selling the distribution rights to your film in shares like the indie film Lotawana
  • Create  an NFT for a short film to finance it
  • Sell NFT collectibles from the film
  • Fundraise your budget with NFTs
  • Anyone with a fanbase or that can tap into a fanbase can and should create NFTs
  • Social Media Influencers, YouTubers, any company with IP that has fans should be all over NFTs.

These are just some ideas. I decide to throw my hat in the ring and created an experiment. I minted a few NFTs for my first short film BROKEN and some “legacy NFTs” of the first-ever filmmaking tutorials ever uploaded to YouTube. Here is the description of one of the NFTs.

SHORTCODE - SOUND FX

Need Sound Effects for your short or feature film project?

Download 2000+ sound effects designed for indie filmmakers & their projects for free.

I decide to throw my hat in the ring and created an experiment. The Indie Film Hustle NFT Collection. I minted a few NFTs for my first short film BROKEN and some “legacy NFTs” of the first-ever filmmaking tutorials ever uploaded to YouTube. Here is the description of one of the NFTs.

This NFT is called Muzzle Flash Breakdown and is one of the first filmmaking tutorials to ever be uploaded to YouTube. It was uploaded on August 28, 2006, by filmmaker, author, and Indie Film Hustle Podcast host Alex Ferrari from his 2005 award-winning short film BROKEN. 

It was taken from the best-selling DVD of the film. That DVD was one of the first indie short films to ever create a massive collection of tutorials and making of videos that explained how to make a low-budget independent film with off-the-shelf software and digital consumer cameras.  

This is part of a limited series of filmmaking tutorials that were uploaded to YouTube from the short film BROKEN. All the videos were uploaded and released on the same day in 2006. The external link attached to this NFT will show the original upload to YouTube.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFPoBZY5BrA

When you purchase this NFT you will also gain access to the short film BROKEN, the entire collection of tutorials and commentary tracks via private link and passcode. You will also receive the original QuickTime file that was uploaded to YouTube.

To access my NFTs go to: www.ifhnft.com

I released three of 6 of the total filmmaking tutorials I uploaded on YouTune back in Aug 2006. If these sell out I’ll upload the rest and maybe some of my other popular short films I directed over the years. I wanted to give you an example of what an independent film NFT looked like and this is totally an experiment to see what happens.

Maybe I’ll never sell an NFT, maybe I sell them three years from now or maybe they will sell out in 15 min. Who knows. What I am excited about is the potential of what this could mean for the indie filmmaking community.

UPDATE: In less than 72 hours I sold out of my first ever NFTs. I just added the second part to the film tutorial series as well as the FIRST Indie Film Hustle Podcast Episode NFT. Click here to check it out.

In this episode, I break down everything you need to know about NFTs, how to make money with them, and more. Enjoy!

Alex Ferrari 0:02
Now, there's been a lot of talk lately about this thing called NFT's. And it's going to revolutionize the world of the artist and being able to put the money back into artists pockets. And of course, when I heard about this, I was like, Well, what does this mean for us as independent filmmakers. So I wanted to put together an episode that would be a guide to all independent filmmakers out there on what NFT's are, and the many different ways you can use them to possibly generate revenue for your film or fundraise for your film or distribute your film and so many other things and we'll talk about that in this episode. But let's first off talk about what an NFT is. An NFT is a non fungible token, which means that is a unique digital file that is registered on the blockchain. Now before I continue with NFT, I need to explain to you what blockchain is. Now, many of you might have heard the term blockchain associated with cryptocurrency like Bitcoin, or aetherium, or Dogecoin, or some many other cryptocurrencies out there.

The technology of blockchain is revolutionary, and I personally believe it will transform the world, if not as big or bigger than the internet did. I know that's a very big statement. But you'll understand in a minute, what blockchain is basically, is a ledger. It is a public ledger, that cannot be messed with hacked, adjusted, and it's completely transparent for everybody to see. So every time there's a transaction, it gets put on a blockchain, and then that blockchain is registered there. And then the next page in that ledger, let's say, which we call a block will be the next one. And then other transactions happen there, and then another one and another one, and it goes on for infinity.

But you can't go back to page two or three and adjust something or erase a number or change something, because it will screw up the entire blockchain. And it's on it's impossible to do. So Bitcoin has been around for 13 years since 2008, when it was first released. And I was the first time the concept of blockchain was presented to the world. In that time, no one has been able to hack, modify or adjust the Bitcoin blockchain. It is not possible to do it is as perfect of an idea as anything that's come out of humanity in such a long time. And I don't want to go into so deep into blockchain but that is the basis of what NFT's are because NFT's live on a blockchain. Now when I first heard about NFT's, I was just like what I don't I don't understand what it is, is a digital file. Why are people spending millions of dollars for these digital files?

Well, in February 2021, there was a digital artist named Peebles who sold a digital artwork for $69.3 million in an auction. And the founder jack Dorsey of Twitter, sold his first tweet for $2.9 million dollars. And it is essentially a digital collectible. Now, I know a lot of you out there who are probably either my vintage or older or might not get this and I'm going to break it down for that part of the audience right now, because the younger crowd might understand what this is. It is essentially a baseball card. It is a comic book. It is a garbage pail kid. It is a a Pokemon card. They're just collectibles. But unlike those examples I gave you where there is hundreds if not 1000s of rookie cards out there for a baseball player.

There's only one that you could make multiple versions of it, you could do a limited run of you know, 1000 or 100 or 50 if you like, but they are digital collectibles. So in a lot of people are asking Well, why would you pay money for something that you could just download a JPEG off online for? Or buy a printer by buy a copy of it and put it up on your wall? Was there same reason why people buy cop posters and prints in limited edition prints of artist or they buy replicas of Van Gogh paintings, and put it on their walls? Because limited edition prints are the same thing as NFT's you can or if it's not limited edition prints, you want the actual print? So what would you rather own? Would you rather own the Mona Lisa?

Or would you rather own a poster of the Mona Lisa? And that's what this all is. These are that's what an NFT is it is a digital collectible. Now how is this going to work for us as independent filmmakers and screenwriters? How is that going to work? Well, let me give you an example. Let's say that Van Gogh painted a painting. And he went and sold it to a art gallery for $500. Because no one knew who Vincent van Gogh was, at the moment, he sold that painting to a gallery, someone at the gallery said this guy has some talent, let me buy this thing for 500 bucks, then fast forward five years, and Van Gogh is the biggest artist in the world, let's say. And that $500 print of that $500 painting that they bought, they go off and sell it for $30 million at auction.

Well, that's great for the the owner of the original painting. But that does nothing for the artist, the artist does not get to reap any of those rewards. And that has been the problem with art for the longest time in the art world because the artist never gets to, you know, you know, wet his beak, as they say or wet her beak, as they say, when it comes to upsells, or future revenue generated from their art. Well, the thing with NFT's is is as the artists you control what you do with your art. So if I'm an artist, I'll put my let's say digital painting up as an NFT.

And there's only one of them, and I'll auction it off, or I'll sell it at a fixed price and someone buys it for that. So let's say I put a poster up of one of my movies, and somebody out there decides to spend $1,000 for it. And I'm like great, you now own that NFT I don't own it anymore. You own it. Now let's say in a couple years, my art starts selling crazy people will really pop really want my poster art and all that kind of stuff. Well then say the original owner of that first NFT that they that was bought for $1,000 they put it back on the market and they sell it for $100,000.

Well, because I created that NFT I could put whatever percentage it is I want but because it's on the blockchain every single time that NFT is sold 10% comes back to me. That's the standard rate for this. So you could do 20% you could do 5% but standard percentages are 10%. So from here until eternity, every single time that NFT is sold somewhere else. Anywhere, anytime. instantly. I get 10% of whatever sells. So if this, this art continues to grow in value, so someone bought it for 100,000. A year later, they sell it for a million, I get 10%. In two years later, they sell it for 10 million, I get 10%, and so on, and so on and so on. So that way the artists still is able to generate revenue from their art for their lifetime.

This is revolutionary for artists in this world. Now, how does this translate to independent filmmakers? Well, when I got when I finally understood that this was basically a baseball card, a digital collectible version of a baseball card or a comic book, I'll use this analogy. Imagine that Steven Spielberg created an NFT for his shirt first short film called amblin. And that was his first short film, and he put it out as an NFT and he sold it for $100. That would be the equivalent of a Mickey Mantle rookie card. How much would ambulance shortfilm be worth as an NF? T. Today?

How much would it have been worth when jaws hit on Raiders of the Lost Ark hit or when he hit? Or when jurassic park or Schindler's List hit and all these other milestones in Steven Spielberg's career, what would that short film be worth? Would it be worth $5? Or would you be worth hundreds of 1000s of dollars? Possibly millions? That is what we're talking about here, guys. So imagine a world where filmmakers are treated like baseball players, or like your favorite comic book character, the first appearance of spider man is worth millions of dollars. But as the career goes on, let's say we keep that example going. Or I'll switch over to a contemporary director as well. Let's talk about Chris Nolan.

So Chris Nolan make he made his first feature film called the following. If we if we would have had an NFT for the following, how much would that NF t be worth today? So after that, he creates an NFT for momento. How much would that NFT be worth today. And he continues to create NFT's per movie per project that he makes throughout his career for people to buy, trade and sell, because they are now buying into him as an artist. Just like you would buy a rookie card for Mickey Mantle, but then you would also buy every year that he's playing baseball, you would buy that year's card, the equivalent would be with filmmakers. Imagine if you owned Reservoir Dogs NFT. Quinn, Tarantino's first feature film or Pulp Fiction or Django Unchained are in glorious bastard. Imagine if you had the rights, or excuse me if you owned that NFT and that could be one NFT.

Or it could be a limited edition of maybe 100 nF T's or 1000 NFT's but that's all the NFT's that will ever be made of that piece of art. Now, that's that's the way I've been able to wrap my head around this seeing like, Where can we go with this? Where can independent filmmakers go now, that is one way you can use NFT's Kevin Smith is now currently using an NFT to sell all distribution rights to his next film. Now, that means that the person who buys that NFT owns the movie owns it and can exploit it and do whatever they want with it from here until eternity.

Now, if they ever sell these rights, Kevin gets 10%. And the producers of the film gets 10%. That's one way of going about it. And also with buying the rights Kevin included in that NFT full marketing, promotions, interviews, they're gonna help the film whoever buys those rights to get it out into the world. And he has a stipulation as well that you have to release it, you can't just sit on it and just go Haha, no one will ever see this movie.

So that is another way. We have a up and coming interview with the first feature film ever independent film to ever sell NFT's for an independent film. And that film is called Lata Juana with Trevor, the director is going to be on as well as his producing partner, we're going to talk all about how he did it. And what they did, essentially was sell shares in their movie.

So you're selling shares as NFT so now every time there's money to be made from anytime there's money that comes in these, these people who own the NFT's will get a piece of the movie. So there's that's another way to make money is with NFT's and independent films. Even Another way is to essentially crowdfund your film with NFT's meaning that you can put 1000 shares for me or for your film as NFT's, and people could start buying them.

And you can set whatever price you want. You can auction it if you like. And you can raise capital to make your movie, if you have an audience if you have people who will believe in the project you're doing and so on. But this is unlike crowdfunding. It's they're just buying shares in your movie, and they can do that. Now, how is this all done? This is all done using cryptocurrency. So the reason why NFT's work it's not because they're sending you a check every single time a sale comes in, it all happens automatically on the blockchain, to your to your cryptocurrency wallet, usually it's using etherium, which is a whole other conversation.

But that is the that is the cryptocurrency that they're using for NFT's right now. But the thing is, guys, the NF T's right now are in their infancy, everyone's just trying to figure out what to do with it, what what's going on with it, how to do it, some people are selling NFT's with physical things with it, they're selling experiences with their NF t. So if you buy my NFT, you also get a hardcopy version of it. And you'll also get, you know, a conference call with me and you can maybe get an autographed picture from the store and they just constantly are packaging things together. So nobody really knows what to do with the film and how to with the with the NFT's and how to actually market it because it's all brand new.

This is essentially the internet in 1996. Okay, that's what NFT's and blockchains are right now the concept of a blockchain, people are starting to figure out imagine in 1995, if I told you to go go to this URL, nobody would have understood a lot of people would have not understood what you're talking about. There was a group of people that did, but many people wouldn't. It's the same thing. Now people are like, what is cryptocurrency? I don't know, what is a blockchain? What does that what is an NFT?

These are things that will be part of our societal vernacular, in the coming years. These things everybody will understand what an NFT is just like everybody now knows what www dot blah, blah, blah, calm means, or what at? the at symbol is for email or what email even was trying to explain what email was to somebody who didn't understand it? It's the same thing that's going on right now with NFT's blockchain and cryptocurrency and I promise you one thing the moment the studio's understand what's going on with NFT's they are going to jump in because what would you think the NFT for the latest Star Wars movie is?

Or the limited edition stuff that they're going to put out for the next Star Wars movie? Or for the next Marvel movie? What would the Avengers end game be worth as an NFT? What would Iron Man's NFT be worth and all sorts of different products and NFT's that they can create limited editions for all of these digital assets that they can create an auction off? to not only sell, make money with the actual NFT. But the marketing? Can you imagine that Disney puts up the Avengers end game NFT. And there's only one and you get to auction it, I promise you that will go from millions of dollars. And the press that they will get from that in addition to just the the money that they're going to get is going to be invaluable.

So the moment that the studio's figure this out there it's going to be they're going to just get everyone's going to go into it. Because then they're going to go into the Casa Blanca NFT, The Three Stooges, NFT's, the the jaws, NFT's and they're going to go into their archives, I'm going to pull up all of the greatest movies that they have in their catalogue and start creating NFT's from those films, because movie fans are going to want to own a digital collectible from their favorite movies. I'm telling you, this is going to happen. Can you imagine the Criterion Collection NFT of Seven Samurai? Can you imagine the Criterion Collection version of Rashomon or of any of their Chasing Amy or whatever movies that they have the NFT rights to? You mean to tell me that no Criterion Collection, collector out there will not buy the NF T of their favorite films. I'm telling you, this is going to be something it might be nothing, but I truly truly doubt it. Now I know a lot of you are asking where do I set these up? Where can I actually sell these things? Where can I create an NFT? How do you how do you create an fd?

Well, there's popular marketplaces like open sea, rare herbal and mental mental is the one that has in vestment from Mark Cuban Ashton Kutcher and a couple of other big shots. And at NBA top shots, sells pro basketball moments, like highlights, like you own the highlight from LeBron doing this, or Michael Jordan doing that. Major League Baseball is starting to finally get into it as well. And they're creating NFT's for different moments and things like that. And they're selling out like their people are going crazy for this stuff. And I know a few of you asking, Is this a fad?

Is this a bubble is it's just a waste? I personally don't believe so. I think that it is here to stay. It's going to change. But I think not only do I think blockchain is here to stay, blockchain will be here, and will be part of every fabric of our existence, in my opinion, on the digital world. In the next coming years, there's things that are being worked out things, they're trying to figure out technology wise, and in bandwidth things, the exact same stuff that people were talking about when the internet showed up.

And if you old enough to know what it was like to dial up internet through the free AOL disk, that you would get an A magazine and a computer magazine to get access to the internet, how slow it was. And nobody really understood what a website was how to build it properly. jpg wasn't even a thing then. So pictures took forever to download, all those things needed to be figured out. And that is what's happening right now with blockchain. And if t is just another thing that you could put on the blockchain, there's so many things that can be put on the blockchain.

But NFT is that so I personally don't believe that NF T's are fad, I think it's here to stay. I think it will change and maneuver and, and and morph into something else in the coming months and years moving forward. But I think it's here to stay. And it's a very exciting time, because it's something new, and it gives power back to the creator to the artists. And I mean, right now, the music industry, musicians and artists are putting out albums and NFT. And they have complete control of the money flow. And labels now are putting in their contracts that they own NFT rights as well. I promise you distribution contracts are going to start coming up that we want NFT rights. This is a thing, it's here to stay in my opinion.

So if you want to see an example of it, I decided to put a test study together. And I launched my own NFT's. Now I have the distinction unless somebody else tells me different. And I've done research and I can't find any others. I was the first person to ever upload a filmmaking tutorial on YouTube. I cannot find one any where else. I was the first one it was released August 28 2006. Now, there are six total videos I uploaded to YouTube. And I actually put in the NFT. A link to the YouTube video for proof and a provenance, if you will, of one this file was actually uploaded.

So when you buy this NFT, you will have access and you will own one of the original six uploaded filmmaking tutorials on YouTube. I only uploaded three of them currently I wanted to see what happened. And there's three other ones if you check out the YouTube page, you'll see that there's three other ones as well. I also think I have the first movie trailer ever uploaded to YouTube due because I can't find it. I beat Sony Pictures by like, a couple months of when they before they opened up their YouTube channel so I don't think I'm the only I'm the first movie trailer ever but I think I'm one of the first for sure. But right now I can't find any other any other movie trailers because now I actually uploaded those much earlier.

I forgot what date I did, but that's not an NF t But anyway, that's regardless. So that's what we call a legacy. Nf t. a legacy NF T is essentially the first ever of its kind. So the first filmmaking tutorial NFT that would be mine. A lot of wanna would be the first independent feature film ever sold as an NF t in the history of of NFTs. So those are what they call legacy NFT's so like the first tweet ever sold as an NFT is a legacy NFT. The first comic book The first baseball card, the first Garbage Pail kid, these are first Pokemon card, these aren't legacy, NFT. So those are things that you should look out for as well. So I put these three up, made it really affordable right now currently because aetherium has gone down in price is 65 bucks. If Ethereum, the cryptocurrency goes back up, when I put first posted them, it was like 125 bucks. So it went down a bunch. So now they're 65 bucks, 64 bucks.

So it will range depending on when you buy it. Now, obviously 65 bucks is not going to make or break me, I'm using this as an experiment, I want to see what happens. I want to see if there's anybody out there in the indie film hustle tribe that finds value in that. And you're not only buying that NFT because of its legacy, but you're also buying it because I put it up. And hopefully one day, I will do other things in my career where these will become much, much more valuable. I have no idea. We'll see. But it's just a really interesting experiment. And another NFT I put up was to my first short film broken, which many of you know and listen to my podcast? No, it was in over 200 film festivals, it was reviewed by Roger Ebert.

It was basically the start of me even thinking about doing something like indie film hustle back then where I created a DVD that sold 5000 copies made over 100,000 bucks as a whole. All sorts of stuff, I'll put links to all the story if you haven't heard that story in the in the show notes, but I put it up as an NFT. To see what you know, if you believe that one day, I will do something artistically that will become more valuable. or for whatever reason, I become more popular. And this becomes more valuable. It might be a good investment. I don't know, this is a weird conversation, because I'm the artist saying hey, maybe one day I'll be big guys. And this will be worth a lot of money. I have no idea. This is an experiment.

Okay, I have no idea. But I wanted to kind of show you have put an example up there. So you can see what what it is and how to do it. And what you know, we'll see what happens, you know, I don't know, I have no idea what's gonna happen in the future with my career, this will be worthless, or this will be worth something or whatever I don't know. But I wanted to show you guys I wanted to give you an example of what this was. So if you do buy the NFT, to my first short film broken, not only do you get the NFT, the actual digital NFT file for the original collectible, if you will have broken, but you also get, I also threw in a bunch of physical stuff. So I'll send this stuff out to you.

So you'll also get access to it digitally. So all of the special features all the other things, including those first tutorials that I upload won't be sent to you digitally. And you'll have access through indie film, hustle TV, you will also get a copy of the DVD signed by me. And you'll also get a lipstick and bullets which is the blu ray really rare because it was only released very little a lipsticks and bullets, blu ray, which has broken and three of my other feature films that they put into a compilation, blu ray that was released a god like eight years ago, as well. So you'll get that. In addition to that plus, you'll also get a digital collection of never before released poster designs that I created October 22 2004. And those are the original files as well.

So you'll get a bunch of stuff when you buy this NFT. Currently, as of this recording, the NF T is running $264.60 that will change depending on the rate of, of aetherium. So if these sell out, I'll put up the other three filmmaking first filmmaking tutorials on YouTube. So there's you'll have the entire collection of six up there. And then I also have three other short films that I made that are red princess blues, references blues animated which have Lance Hendrickson in it, the late great, Robert Forster, and I'll put those up as well as NF T's and those are and if those ever became a feature film, which I want to make one day, they might become valuable.

I don't know, again, 250 bucks, 50 bucks, it's not making a break. And you guys, I'm just putting it out there to see what happens. It's gonna be a really interesting experiment. Nobody might buy it right now. It might sell out in 15 minutes. I have no idea. So I'm really curious about it. So how did I put them up? Where did I put them up? I put them up on mental. So mental dot app. The reason why I use mental is because there was no cost to put them up. If you use any of the other platforms. Those other platforms are going to charge you what is called a gas fee.

A gas fee is the cost to actually have someone verify the transaction on the Ethereum blockchain. And gas fees go up and down and they're really expensive sometimes, and sometimes they're more affordable. It all depends on where aetherium is at the time. This is one of the problems that you're trying Figure out, we're trying to figure out right now, we're not we but the whole community is trying to figure out how to streamline this. So it becomes more mainstream. You could also buy with cryptocurrency, you could also buy with a credit card. So that's why also like mental as well, I know a lot of wanna use open sea to put up theirs, which is probably one of the biggest, but minimal is up there as well. And there's no cost to get things up there. So if you want to put some tests up to see what's going on, you can join me there are no other independent films up there.

Right now, guys, we are at the beginning stages of this stuff, guys, I don't think it's going to go away, I might be wrong, but I don't think it's going to go away. So that's why I jumped on and threw my hat in the ring to see what would happen the same way I've done so many times before in my career, like the YouTube videos and see what would happen. And I had a website back in 9798, making money online. And I always try to be ahead of the game, I'm always trying to see what's around the corner. And I think NFT's are around the corner, it's going to take a minute for everyone to figure out what to do, how to do it, how to set up standards, all that kind of stuff.

And also putting things up as an NFT, you do need a little bit of technical knowledge, I'm not gonna lie to you, it's not the easiest process in the world. But I learned it, you know, in a couple hours watching a bunch of YouTube videos, and tutorials on how to do it on mental mental is pretty easy, not that complex to do, you just have to educate yourself a little bit about it.

And there's tons and tons of tutorials on youtube for free on how to update things and understand what gas fees are, and all this kind of stuff. So you can learn all that stuff fairly easily. But it is doable. So I hope this episode has, you know, lit a fire under your butts to see if there's something else that you can do maybe another revenue stream maybe another way to raise money another way to, to distribute your film and get it out there into the world. There's so many just the opportunities are endless. And the options are endless with NF T's you can really do a whole lot with it. So let's all see what happens. You know, I'm really interested. Now if you want to purchase, or at least look at my NF T's, all you have to do is go to IFH and f t that's like indie film, hustle, IFH and FT.com. And it'll take you straight to my, my collection of NFT's and let's see what happens.

Again, big huge experiment, I'm expecting that no one's gonna buy anything, and nothing is gonna happen. Because I just don't know, I just don't know. So I'm really excited to see what happens. And then the next week, week and a half, we're gonna have some great guests on talking about NFT's talking a little bit about blockchain, and all that kind of stuff. So I really wanted to kind of give you guys a nice, a nice collection of information about this stuff. So just keep an eye out for all of those. So if you want to get links to all the stuff I've been talking about in here, and I'll throw some tutorials and how to get some stuff done and everything. I'll put those in the in the show notes as well at indie film hustle.com Ford slash 471.

Thank you so much for listening, guys. I really hope this, a lot of you come back to this episode. And really, it helps you guys. I hope this helps everybody out there. I hope I want to hear if you as a filmmaker, put out some NFT's and you sell them, call me I want to know about it. I want to see how you're doing. I want to hear stories about how you're using NFTs and what's going on with NFT's in in your process in your workflow with your project either at the beginning of a project in the middle of a project at the end of the project, whatever I want to see what you guys in the tribe are doing. Reach out to me You guys know how to get a hold of me online. through the website. All you got to do is email me and message me and me or somebody from my team. We'll get you back but I am very interested to see what happened. So thank you again for listening guys.

As always, keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive. Stay safe out there. And I'll talk to you soon.

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The movie ‘Mad Max: Fury Road’ is one replete with actions, blood, and gore. It tells a story of how a vicious and tyrannical leader Immortal Joe is relieved of his secret harem containing five beautiful princesses.

Check out this brilliant video by Mr Nerdista.

These princesses were kidnapped as children and kept as breeding machines for Immorta Joe. However, his most trusted war leader, Furiosa, betrays him by carting away with his prized possessions. Furiosa, the warrior woman, tries to take the women to her childhood home -the green place- where she was also kidnapped. The road to ‘paradise’ is fraught with danger. There is no hiding place as Furiosa, her side kick, Max and the women try to escape the tyrannical warlord. An angry leader who is hard on their tail along with thousands of fierce armed warriors whose only rule is to kill the betrayer and return the harem unharmed.

This reverting movie has a lot in common with comic strips and superhero films. It uses explicit scenes to portray the plot. The film was created mostly from the story boarding style of about 3,500 different comic books. The writer George Miller, and his artists worked for two years, tirelessly building the action in drawings before adding any form of dialogue with the story board. ‘Fury Road’ is majorly created through art and sketches. If you view most of the scenes in the movie alongside with the story board, it would seem like a comic book adaptation.

To prioritize the images or visuals of the film, George Miller lets his characters speak only when necessary. Meaning, the movie is all about action and less about dialogue. Unlike conventional movies where dialogue is used to paint pictures, Fury Road is the opposite. The film uses images to replace words, a nuance employed in comic books. Even Miller’s story board contains no words at all.

Another way Miller has been able to make this movie otherworldly is the unusual names he gave his characters. The names like Furiosa, Immortal Joe, Nux, etc., make them seem unreal, almost like they are their alter egos or aliases just like how comic heroes are.

He portrays Immorta Joe as a villainous character who aims to deny his people of natural resources. Making them beggarly, diseased, and dependent on his benevolence. His minions are kept loyal, with a ridiculous promise of an afterlife that rivals paradise and fear of retribution if they disobey him. Just like the evil villains in popular comics such as Spider Man.

Mad Max: Fury road relies heavily on the elements of a superhero movie or a comic book even though it’s neither. But, it just as well might be seen as the best of either cadre.

It is said that the movie Mad Max Fury Road has finally been made into a comic strip to the delight of its fans. The influence of storyboarding in this movie is epic.

Download FREE Storyboard Template + Tutorials

For many directors, storyboard is imperative to the filmmaking process. I created over 200 storyboards for my first short film BROKEN. For that project I found it to be extremely helpful. Check out how my storyboards ended up in the film.

If you are new to directing and need a better understanding of shot selections, storyboard and what they mean to your storytelling process what the video below.

I always found it to be a pain to look or create my own storyboard template. Well, you have enough to worry about. You’re directing a film for God sake and the last thing you need to worry about is the damn storyboard template so I did the work for you.

There’s a storyboard template to fit any creative desire below. Happy filmmaking!

Download your storyboard templates here.

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Storyboard Template

Another choice when it comes to angles is also the question of, are you going to show an upshot? Where you don’t see the ground at all because you’re just looking up into the sky or are you going to show the down shot? And you not be asking yourself, okay, Sherm, what is it, which do I want to show? Well here’s a good part is you get to choose and the whole point to choosing, is that as long as you have good reason for what you’re going to be choosing. You’re probably going to be doing the right choice.

Here is what I’m talking about. If every one of these choices has meaning behind it and usually it has to do with that camera being representing us and our attention. And so if you imagine that your story involves somebody walking up and looking of a tall building, that’s going to be part of the story. For example, let’s say this guy is fresh out of the sticks he’s and never been to New York City before. He’s looking up at giant building.

Well that story is going to tell us something, that’s just going to, we’re probably going to want to draw something like this, which is from his vantage point or his P.O.V, which is his point of view. What point of view does is it’s really the heart of getting us as a viewer to identify with character, because if we identify with the character then what happens to the character on the screen is going to matter to us. And that again is just the heart of making that connection with the viewer. So this choice of angle and composition is really, really important for getting an emotional involvement with the viewer.

So again the beginning, when we’re talking about cutting, we’re talking about we need to choose what to shall and that’s pretty much just information. We haven’t decided yet how we’re going to show it, but an angle composition, we’re talking about now how to show it. And we’re getting more into the character of more into their point of view. For characters using up shots and down shots quite frequently if you have two different sized characters in a show. When they’re talking to each other, this character is generally going to be looking up at this character.

And this character is generally going to looking down at this character. So frequently your characters are going to be drawn in up shots and slide down trust pending on their size. Well, a lot of people get really thrown when they try to draw up shots of characters. For example, they may try to draw the underside of her nose and have difficulty with the character’s features drawing from such an unusual angle, and for example you can see the ceiling and the walls of the room. And what I wanted to show you is that frequently, especially with animation.

These kind of up shots can be done much more simply despite implying the upshot using the background. So if your character normally looks like this in a three-quarter view from straight on, just by adjusting the background a little bit and showing that same ceiling. You have a slight upshot, but without the weirdness that can come with trying to draw on upshot, a character that hasn’t really been designed for that.

So this right here is something that could save you quite a lot of time and trouble because generally you’re not going to have that kind of extreme angle where this one will read just the same. The same will follow for another character if you’re working in a down shot. If you have a little character like a mouse, very frequently you’re going to be looking way down on them, well you could spend a lot of time trying to figure out what he looks like from that position, but he’s going to look probably pretty weird and pretty off model.

So again, it’s just as easy, and you’ll see this in a lot of kind of cartoons that have these sort of characters that you can just draw that same character from more of a standard point of view, but still show the floor to represent a down shot. This is a total miracle when it comes to trying to draw characters on model.

I’ve just seen so many people struggle and struggle with this, because most model sheets that animation will show you is going to show characters from pretty much a straight on view, but in 360 degrees. Again even if you’re work on live-action. These kind of shots could be very difficult to draw. Drawing up shots on characters and down shots tend to be a lot more challenging and if you’re wanting to just get a convincing shot that reads very clearly, you can just use this technique of manipulating the background.

So again that is for down shots and up shots and again this has to do with who’s mind it is that we’re getting into. So when we see this sort of shot, the viewers aren’t thinking about it very much, but they are going to get the feeling subliminally that they’re looking from a low point of view, because we can see that ceiling. You might even put a little, it might be a little lamp up there.

There might be other background elements, like a picture frame or maybe a lamp on a table. Regarding composition, I would also stress that other decorative elements like that when put into a background are there to still support the scene, background design is one of many things that you’re going to have to deal with and an artist that draws flat or unconvincing or cluttered backgrounds are just going to have a difficult time getting people who like their work. So this is kind of arrangement of background details that you would want to have.

And even if you really look at the schematic of this room and you thought oh no you know what that light, that light should really be here and there’s a chain hanging down like right there. Well these kind of elements start touching and tangent against the main character will really start to distract the viewer and they are totally distracting. And we’ll talk about this other topic of tangents.


Today we are doing storyboarding, which is one of my favorite parts. Because you’re making the movie before you make the movie. I absolutely love it. We tried to capture the whole process of making those boards to show you guys so let’s not delay any longer Shall we jump right into it.
So I’m working on storyboards.

Now we’ve been working on it for a while. First, of course, comes a shot list and things like that. And once I have a clear vision of what I want the thing to look like, it’s time for me to board now storyboarding isn’t a completely mandatory thing for you to do. There are some directors who don’t most do storyboard. Some don’t do it before time, like Ridley Scott will board what he wants to shoot that day the day before or on the way into shoot the actual film, but some will board way in advance and get really detailed with it. I’m the type of person who likes to board every single shot in the film.

The reason I like to do this is because I set such a clear plan before time I make my entire film before we ever step on set. And by doing that, it is really easy for me to throw everything out the window when I want to because there’s a clear plan in place, I don’t have to be stressed out or constantly thinking how I’m going to do the next thing I have something to fall back on and this structure to work off of.

So I can really get creative and do whatever I want. After that. So when I bored before, anytime I would do storyboarding before, I was always doing it by myself, I didn’t really have a budget or the network to bring somebody in to help me do storyboarding. And you can do that if you don’t have an artist or you can draw, you can still do your boards or stuff like taking pictures, and making your storyboard through pictures.

There’s an app on iPhone called cinematic, which we’ve talked about on the show before which is awesome and has everything you need to make a storyboard. Just go around your house with your friends, getting the clear idea of what it is you want your film to look like. It’s really, really helpful, especially when you’re working with a crew to be able to just show people not try to explain but actually just show this is what I’m talking about. Another great one is frame forge 3d. That’s an awesome program where you can actually find your shots.

And once you have your shots set up, it also makes camera plots for you. You can do different frame sizes, you can do different lenses, you can also get all the measurements, if you know where you’re shooting, you can get the measurements of the room and build it exactly, you’ll know all the heights of your camera. And what I love most about frame forge 3d is the fact that you can find shots this way.

Like it’s a great thing to just move the camera around this virtual world and find the exact shot you want to come in zooming out, you can really learn different focal lengths and what what they’ll make that scene feel like so there’s a lot to that program that’s really beneficial. But with this one, I really wanted to work with a storyboard artist because I was convinced by Fred Dan that that was the way to go when you’re directing, especially with your first big project working with a storyboard artist, he says is the first time that you direct your film, and I gotta say he’s 100% right, having to give my vision to another person verbally for them to put it down visually, has really helped me I mean, I’ve had to justify shots and the way a scene played out, that made me completely rethink the scene because I was wrong.

Once I was seeing it there. And I was explaining why one moment happened to the next, I found out that this was something I was gonna change on set. And given that we only have a certain amount of time to shoot, we’re having a crunch crunch our days, because of the budget, we got to keep the budget down. But working with so many people to find that issue onset was something like this would really be difficult for the production, I mean, something like tell or losses, that’s fine, we’re there with a bunch of friends, it’s not that big of a deal.

But something like this, I really need to make sure all my stuff is locked down. And when I get on there, I know exactly what I want. That way I have the freedom to move around a little bit if I want to. So having Jordan who is the storyboard artist I used, write, draw up the boards and even give me ideas for things was really, really helpful. They bring out they want it I talked a lot.

There was a lot of explaining but now on day three of boarding, which is, I guess 18 hours into boarding. There’s kind of like an unsaid language happening where she totally gets my style. And now I just kind of get the idea of what the morals but I just watch her rip what’s in my head directly out and draw it into a frame. But again, these boards don’t need to be super detailed.

I mean, Jordan isn’t even spending a ton of time to make this look like a comic book. It’s just what you need to get the detail across of what you’re trying to do. I mean if all you’re doing is drawing stick figures and it still gives the idea of perspective and composition. Well then you have yourself a storyboard and I think it’s really important especially when you’re shooting a film. Because you’re shooting completely out of order, you’re all over the place. This helps you retain your original intention of what you wanted for that scene what you wanted the camera to do.

Because in pre production, you have all the time in the world to really dive into your script and figure out what you want your audience to be filming, when you’re on set, it gets really stressful. And it’s really easy to forget where you’re at, under that sort of stress. But with a storyboard, you can easily just go look at the image. And it all comes right back to what you originally wanted for that scene. So it’s really a kind of a safety net, to ensure that what you originally wanted, is still going to find its way to the film.

Another thing that I thought was interesting that I hadn’t thought of before was the actual location we started boarding before I found my locations. And once I found them, we actually redid a few boards, because I had to redo my shot list based on the location, some things when it worked, then I was able to show my artist, some images of our location. And she started tailoring her images to what the location actually looked like, which was really going to help us once we’re there, we know exactly where I wanted the camera, originally, thanks to the storyboards. And it helped us see what we were able to actually do with the camera and not since we know what sort of obstructions are actually in the scene.

Now if you can’t see the location first, it’s really not that big of an issue. The storyboard is still going to help you to know what sort of thing you want. And so you can easily rearrange your shot based on the location you have still getting all those ideas and punctuations that you had in the storyboard. So here’s how it worked. First of all, how did I find a storyboard artist? Well, I just searched the internet, I googled storyboard artists, and then around my location, and I spent days looking for people that I think would be down to do it, that wouldn’t cost a ridiculous amount of money, what you can do is look for people in art school, if someone’s actually still in college, they’re going to be down to do your project desk, just to have a credit just to get experience, it’ll probably do it for free. Of course, it’s nice to give them any amount of money you possibly can. But most of these people in these art schools will probably just hook you up for free, and they’re going to be very, very talented people.

Now, when I met up with Jordan, of course, we start going through the boards one by one starting from our first shot. And I actually went through the script in chronological order. So jumping from scenes back and forth, so I could kind of see my movie layout in front of me, I would describe the shot and draw very, very poorly on a notebook to try to express what I’m trying to think of what’s one thing that helped us a lot was doing Google Hangouts, since I’m in pre production, I couldn’t meet that much. So we would do Google Hangouts, and you could do a screen share. And I was able to show her my screen with frame for Janet, and then position the camera to kind of kind of give her a general idea of what I wanted to do.

And she could go off that. So frame forge really helped me out there too. So the first thing she does is thumbnailing, which is just these really basic, really sloppy images to where only her and I can really tell what that is, then she’s gonna take that back, and then she fixes it up to the second round of roughs. This is a lot more intelligible, you can tell what you’re looking at, it gives me a clear idea of where the camera is perspective and angle.

And then once I approve all those, or have corrections, move up, move down, left, right, I’m very picky about because I want everybody to know exactly what I wanted, she goes back and she makes the final boards, including shading and everything else that really captures the tone for the rest of the crew to see, which is why I’ve been really loving using an actual artist. Because not only is the angle that I want in there, but the actual tone is being represented for people to be able to see there’s also a side to storyboarding that’s kind of like screenwriting. Whereas screenwriting, there’s a secret language to it, that formatting kind of shows someone that the person writing knows what they’re doing, since their formatting is correct, well, storyboarding does have something similar to that. And that is the way that it shows how a character is moving or the cameras moving in and out.

So the usual way that you show the different camera moves is just drawing arrows with usually the cameras written inside them. But for something like zoom, you want to show like the zoomed out version. So this larger frame is where it starts. And the smaller frame is where within and then just draw on the arrows to show the direction of the zoom. So for the reverse zooming out, you do the same thing, you show where it starts. And then you show where it ends, these chunkier arrows are usually what you use for camera moves, there’s like, as you can see, there’s kind of an infinite amount of shapes that you can have the four character moves, what you want to do is use these like skinnier arrows, just so you have a difference between the two. And you can tell what, what the arrow is talking about. So if this guy is going to move this way, you want to draw a little arrow that’s going that way.

I mean, really, what a storyboard is going to do is keep you on track. Like I said, when you’re on production, it’s a little bigger, more than you’ve ever handled before. And it’s crap hits the fan, you start getting crazy stressed out, this is going to help you keep in mind your original intention of what you wanted, and get everybody else on the same page with you. Now if you’re looking for a storyboard artist, you could always use the storyboard artist I used you she can be found right here. She’s incredibly talented, and she’s not going to rip you off, which is nice.

She also has a Twitter right here that you can follow and you should follow because she is quite talented. But that’s it for today. I hope that was helpful to you guys. And of course, again, if you don’t want to draw the thing you can use frame forward, you can use Cinemax, you can just use pictures if you want however you want to do it. Just the idea is to put your vision on paper for you to keep in mind and for everyone else to see. But now, back to the rest of this pre pro and I’ll see you guys next week.


You know, when it comes to camera angles in framing, the full shot or full body shot includes the feet and the frame. For this type of shot, remember to never cut off just the feet. In fact, it’s bad practice to cut off your subject or your knees and below, made look like you basically did it unintentionally or by mistake, like you can see here. It also just looks awkward when the person’s legs are cut off below the knees. Now this, in fact, is not a rule by any means. In fact, I don’t really think there are any rules and film.

But it’s just, you know, bad practice. If you’re going to frame your subject like this, then you better have a good reason for it. Otherwise, it will just confuse your audience and will just simply look like you don’t know what what you’re doing. So basically, for full body shot, you should, you know, stick to something like this. next shot is a medium full shot, that’s when you go in a bit closer, and it’s usually also when you cut off your subject somewhere in between the knees and the waist. And once you frame up above basic the waist area, that’s called a medium shot.

After that, we move in for a close shot that frames from around the breast area and app. And then this here is a close up view which basically frames mainly just the subjects head. Once you move in even closer where you start to cut off the forehead or the chin. That’s usually referred to as an extreme close up, even once you move in to just frame the eyes, for example. Now what you got to remember is that there is no standard by which to go when naming these types of shots. These are simply the names that I use.

There are others out there that use different names. What’s important is that you know what type of shots you want to get. So you know, when you’re planning your shots or doing your storyboards, you always use the same names for the shot type. So you basically don’t end up confusing yourself later on down the road when you go back to look at your notes or your storyboards. And next we’ll talk about the types of shots or angles like over the shoulder or a two shot. These are most commonly used in a scene where two characters are talking to each other.

The shots refer more to the angle than what the exact framing is, for example, you can have a close up over the shoulder or a medium over the shoulder like you see here. And you can even go to a full body over the shoulder. Same goes for the for the two shot. Here we have a full body to shot and then a medium to shot. And then a close up to shot.

Or you know you can also have a three or four shot or whatever and and depends on how many characters you have in your shot. Other shot types you might hear about are an insert or a cutaway, which is basically a close up on a part of the scene or you know, could be a POV of one of the characters we’ll be seeing basically a certain detail in that scene like we see here, where one of the characters passes the car keys to the other. And many times people ask me what size lens should they use to get, for example, a good medium shot?

And really, there is no one correct answer. The types of shots or the framing really have nothing to do with the lens. For example, you can have a medium shot that’s shot using a wide angle lens, such as this 16 millimeter Canon lens that I’m using here. Or you can have a medium shot that shot using a 50 millimeter lens.

Same if you use 100 millimeter or even a 300 millimeter telephoto lens. They all produce medium shots. But of course, each of those lenses gives that shot a different look and effect. The framing doesn’t change. It’s just a perspective. So remember that shot framing has nothing to do with the lens size. And the only way you’ll ever really know what type of lens to use in your scenario is once you have a lot of experience going out there and filming, you know, just trying out different types of lenses and experimenting, then you know afterwards, you should come home and compare what kind of effects you got using various lenses on different types of shots.

Because there’s virtually an infinite amount of effects that you can get when you’re mixing up different types of framing, shot types, angles and lenses. For example, let’s take a close up and do a few versions of it and see what kind of effects we can get. If we were to use a mid sized lens such as this 50 millimeter, then you would get something like this, you know an average type of kind of looking shot.

But for example, if you’re filming, let’s say a comedy and you want it to show a person you know in a funny way, then it might be better to go in and real close and use a wide angle such as the 16 millimeter lens, which will make your subjects features look a bit distorted or exaggerated. It’s not actually the lens that makes your subject look that way but your relative position to the subject.

Basically, the closer you move to subject the more dramatic the perspective will be. But obviously you got to use a wide angle lens when shooting this close. Right now we’re about two feet away from the subject. Now if we were to use a 15 millimeter lens at that same distance, then the perspective doesn’t change. But the framing obviously will, because we’re basically just zooming in. So all you end up seeing is this, it will be the same view look at this shot that we got using a 16 millimeter lens, and then digitally zoomed in. The only difference being that the depth of field will be the same as the 60 millimeter lens. And of course, we end up losing a lot of the resolution, which is why we use different lenses.

Or if you’re using a camera that doesn’t have interchangeable lenses, then you would simply zoom in or zoom out. Now let’s take a look at a full body shot. To get it with a 16 millimeter lens, we have to move away from the subject a few more feet, if you were to move away from your subject to about 250 feet, and this wide angle might be good if you’re trying to get let’s say a wide shot of the location.

Because your subject is so small that it’s really hard to even see him. So that’s when you do want to use a long lens such as this 300 millimeter to basically zoom in. Now when you’re this far away, that’s when the subjects will look more flat and less exaggerated. Since you’re seeing all the features from pretty much the same perspective. It will also bring other surrounding objects such such as this mailbox that we have there in the background, closer to our main subject.

Whereas if we were you know, a bit closer, and let’s say using a 50 millimeter lens, it looks like that mailbox is a lot further away. They’re both the same types of shots, a full body shot, but what changes now is our relative position to the subject. And since with the 300 millimeter lens, we have to move away so much further. And then zooming optically, we end up also zooming in on the mailbox, which is why it makes it look like it’s basically a lot closer to our subject. And then for example you can see in this full body shot that we got using our 50 millimeter lens.

So anyway, next time you’re wondering what lens you should use in your setting, just simply go out there with your camera test all different lenses experiment, and above all, just have fun, because that’s really the best way to learn.


In the logo, you know, I feel like every time that I look up storyboards and how they’re supposed to look, they always look really nice. And I used to think that to do them properly, you actually had to be a good artist, which I am the exact opposite of, which I guess is just a bad artist. But today I’m going to show you the basics of doing storyboards and show you that I can do them, anyone can.

storyboards are done so that you can visualize your film scenes before you actually shoot them, which is a huge help to have on set, it makes your life so much easier, it’s a lot harder to forget to get a shot or you know, not get coverage or a certain insert shots that you wanted to have. And you just forgot while you were on set, it’s a lot harder to do that when you have a good visual reference on set.

And you know what the final product needs to look like. And there are some amazing storyboard artists out there like really good to the point where you feel like you can already see the final look of the movie when you look at them seriously, really amazing people out there. But if you’re like me, then you are not one of those people. I mean, this is how I drew Griffin. It’s like a preschooler with not a lot of talent.

But you don’t need to. But you don’t need to be really good at drawing to be a good storyboard artist. The important thing is that you can interpret what you’ve drawn, and that you can effectively translate them into the images, you want to demonstrate just how bad an artist you can be and still make this work. I’m going to use a few very quick excerpts from the short film script that I’ve been working on and no laughing all No.

Now, as you can see here, that’s supposed to be the cabbies head in the foreground, that is William in the mirror, those are supposed to be the buildings that’s supposed to be the street. So as you can see, I’m not very good. I just make it so you can identify the characters like I know that that’s William in the backseat, because of that really well drawn cowboy hat that’s on him. It’s pretty still shot.

But alongside your storyboards, you can add notes that tell you things like the lighting in this case, I wanted Williams faces and shadow now I already sort of shade it in his face to get that across. But just so that people understand that if they look at this and can’t quite understand what I’ve drawn Williams face and shadow except for brief flashes from exterior light. You can also say the action that’s supposed to take place cabbie, adjust the mirror, I’m not drawing a really bad arm reaching up. But you know, it will be understood that that happens in the shot.

Here’s a line from later in the script. Now he kind of does the dramatic turn back like and says line. Now if you want to show on screen movement, you can use arrows within the frame. In this case, I’m showing that his head is turning around but not his body. You can use this for anything, you can use it for walking, you can use it for any small movement that you feel you can animate just using an arrow, you can do that.

Now on this shot, I also want the camera to push in. Now I could draw a second closer picture to show that that’s what I want to have happen and then just label it accordingly. Something I’m going to show in just a second. But in this case, I can show that the camera needs to push in just by doing this, I’ve drawn what the final framing will be these arrows here show that the camera will push in that just to show that it’s a push and not zoom again down in the notes camera pushes in from medium to close up.

Now I’ve got the shot where the car full of the thugs is driving up slowly. And they’re all looking away from the camera out of the parking lot and the building in the background. Looking for a particular car. Now I drew the worst car ever. But for the actual framing, I wanted it to be tighter. So I’ve adjusted the frame accordingly, you can actually draw the rest of the picture and just keep the frame for visual reference as to how it’s supposed to look when it’s shot. And again, I want the camera to move. But this time I’m not, you know pushing in or zooming in. But I actually just wanted to track along with the car. This is easier to get across if you use arrows that kind of crossed the line from outside the frame into inside. And in this case, just for reference, I’ve written track, that is pretty simple. Drawing a car is not as simple for me.

Now this is if you have one long shot, but you want to show multiple frames to show what the action is going to be. This one is going to be a shot that starts off on the ground showing the door of a car opening the legs stepping out of the camera pushes in and raises up and shows the character of William they’re raising his gun and about the fire. Now as you go through your storyboards, you should number them. And if you have multiple frames for the same shot, you just label it one a or whatever number a than B and C etc. And that’s just a few brief storyboards for me but they’re good examples of what you can do when you really can’t draw. But you do have other options if it’s a quicker shoot and you just sort of quick notes on how things need to look.

You can actually do small thumbnails in the margins like this one here, which was just going to be a two shot of the two characters in the cab and I didn’t need to do anything fancy. I just show the two characters are sitting alongside each other face in the camera. That’s the framing, nothing fancy but it’s good to have on set if that’s all you can do. Some people don’t like to completely visualize that they just like to make a shot list. They have a list of shots that they want to get like extreme close up, insert and master shot and they’ll just in writing describe what they want.

And those can also be put in the margins there also pewter programs that you can use that you can make digital art storyboards. And there’s quite a few out there if you don’t even want to touch pen and paper. And it doesn’t always have to be as messy as what I’ve done here. So if you want to look a little bit more professional, you can find templates for storyboards, and shot lists and all that online. And that’s really it. For me, again, I’m not good at this. I’ve said that 100 times at this point, but you don’t have to be, you just need to be able to translate your images to the screen.

And when we actually start shooting the short film, we’ll come back to the storyboard and see just how well I was able to capture that. And another thing you can do that Robert Rodriguez actually does is that you can actually just go on set with a camera and just sort of video storyboard with your actors, have them stand in their spots, get an idea of what you want it to look like and just leave it at that. That’s one of the videos we’re going to be showing in the playlist at the end here is a little featurette on how he does his video storyboarding one video I couldn’t find anywhere online, unfortunately.

But if you have the seven DVD you should check it out. There’s an alternate ending where all they had was the storyboards and they had actors do voiceovers and they sort of animated it, which is called an animatic, which is a whole other thing for another episode.


I know what you’re thinking Mad Max, a comic book film. What enough is this guy talking about? Well Hear me out for the entirety of this video and then just maybe you too will see how Mad Max Fury Road is an unconventional comic book film. Everything that we’ve seen on screen and Fury Road is largely practical effects. We’ve all heard the story about how George Miller and his crew wanted the film to feel tangible and truly kinetic and energy. But what if I told you that 80% of what we see on screen was recreated from 3500 panels of comic book style storyboarding?

In fact, take a look at this. And now this, Miller and his team of artists worked tirelessly for two years drawing out the entire film before even putting any dialogue to paper. It’s important to note that these are genuine panels almost as though they could be printed instantaneously and passed off as comic books for many films on the go to storyboard process.

Very few do so without actually knowing the dialogue they are working off Fury Road was conceived through art and sketches. And if we continue to view the side by side shots of the panel and then the film, it almost feels like a pulpy comic book adaptation, something similar to this perhaps. From an artistic standpoint, the whole visual and feel of Mad Max would not look out of place if say, US DC or Marvel logo slapped in the opening credits of it. In fact, Fury Road is the greatest superhero film of this decade.

Because yes, let’s face it, this is eerily reminiscent of the world of a superhero. And it all starts with Furiosa. Our protagonist could easily be compared with Batman, for example, her parents of dad she rose this vast world alone and effectively by the end risks her life to better and protect that of the people around her. She even has a trusty sidekick, Max. that camaraderie and short could be conversations but yet another strong facet of this forms layered comic book style nuances. While the dialogue is minimal. This only adds to the sheer hilarity and sometimes cheesiness of it all.

Mila himself had this to say about the dialogue, or something which was pretty nonverbal. I mean, people obviously speak in the movie, but they speak only when it’s necessary. And I think that quote is super important, especially as it’s a way of prioritizing the images as vivid replacements of words. There’s the often spout cliche in screenwriting, where you can paint a picture with words for Fury Road almost subverts this, as this pictures evoke words. Instead, the minimal dialogue has its roots deeply ingrained in the comic book style, with Miller storyboards, even after the script containing zero words. Another little nuance which solidifies Fury Road as a somewhat unconventional comic book film is the character names.

They don’t usually feel like real people almost as though these are their aliases. alter egos. Furiosa max rocker tans be immortan Joe slip knocks, the list goes on. And the comedy for he’s pretty awesome.

It almost establishes an idea of hierarchy as the longer name characters are often the most powerful. Meanwhile, those with shorter names are more expendable. The names alone concoct this world that feels as though it exists in a realm of imagination. Get the images much like Gotham and Metropolis remind us that this is a world like ours where if something goes wrong, we could very well end up inhabiting it’s almost cautionary in a way I live in comparison. swampthing in the both deal with nature and the environment as a rustling of society.

The point here is in the Mad Max is ripped off these comic book arcs or films, or was even influenced by them, but it’s simply a fun anecdote that helps this action epic operate as a quasi comic book film. On the topic of characters Fury Road also delivers the brutish villain in in Walton Joe, a man hungry for water and oil depriving everyone of natural resources for his own presidential like power is cold season Come on the wall boys into giving up their lives for him if need be. In return, he promises them a birth in the afterlife of Valhalla.

We’ve seen this type of manipulative and power hungry villain and the likes of Green Goblin and many Spider Man arcs or the Joker and His endless band of goons, the myth and legend of immortan Joe makes him as compelling as the best comic book villains to even has that stereotypical muffled voice of the comic book villain like say Bane, for example.

And as a side note, Fury Road has recently been turned into an actual comic book series. It may not explicitly be a comic book or superhero film, The Mad Max Fury Road toys so heavily with elements of the two that it might as well be and if it constitutes as one then it may very well be at the top of many lists as the best. Hey guys, I’d like to thank you all for watching the video.


Storyboards are illustrations that represent the shots that will ultimately make up a movie. They allow you to build the world of your film before you actually build it. There are any strict exacting rules on how to do storyboards conveying information is what’s important. storyboards are ultimately a technical document a tool. So it doesn’t matter if you’re a skilled illustrator or not. This can work just as well. Is this a way they could take care of? Yes, no problems. I’ll put them on my cat.

Even if you struggle with the perspective or can barely draw a stick figure you can still convey what types of shots you want and their basic composition. Who storyboards typically, the director sits down with a storyboard artists to help articulate their vision. However, it’s not uncommon for cinematographers and production designers to join in the process as well.

I usually meet with the director and produce rough thumbnail sketches that summarize the important information each panel and then afterward I’ll fill in the details on my own meeting with the director once again after completing the panels to make sure everything works. Well then share the completed panels with the rest of the team. Let’s break down the parts of a storyboard.

The panel or frame is a rectangle that represents what the camera will see. panels come in a bunch of different shapes. Pick a panel shape that matches your shooting aspect ratio square widescreen, really really widescreen. A person drawn really small on the panel is a wide or establishing shot. A big head taking up half the panel is a close up. You’d like them. deciding where you put the person your frame is the basis of your composition. This may seem really basic, but this has a huge impact on how you prepare for your shoot these illustrations give your cinematographer a starting point things like camera angles, lighting, depth of field the whole gamut of decisions can be informed by the storyboards.

It’s also a great way to decide what you’ll need out of your locations. Do you really need a giant bottomless pit? Or can you get away with one visual effects wide shot and then cover the rest and tighter shots? Okay, let’s talk about arrows. So now that we have a panel with a character in it, let’s say that character is moving to the left by dragging an arrow pointing to the left we show where that character or door or dinosaur is moving. There’s no real rule to drawing arrows and everyone has their own personal style. But what’s important is that your arrows are easy to read and make sense.

Here’s some examples of arrows. Arrows for characters moving towards camera arrows for characters moving away from camera, this character is kneeling down, and this character’s head is falling off. Arrows within the panel usually mean a subject is moving in the shot arrows around the edges usually imply some sort of camera movement. So here the Raptor lenses right, and the camera pans left.

Now let’s talk about camera movement. camera movement. Arrows also aren’t really standardized, but let’s go over some common ways camera movement is illustrated. Dolly movements are typically done with one arrow often narrowing a little bit to suggest movement in or out of 3d space. Both Dolly shots and zooms can also be illustrated by placing arrows in all four corners of the panel. This shows a widening or narrowing of perspective, you can draw a panel within your panel to show how far your dollar zoom goes.

Clearly conveying information is key. So it’s better to over explain than to confuse people. Hands are often shown with an arrow on the side of the panel, either pointing to the left or to the right tilts up and down are done much the same way. Except with the arrows at the top or bottom of the panel. You can also elongate the panel to fit the entire shot in a single drawing.

Since this can get a little confusing, it’s okay to make a note indicating whether or not the shot is tracking versus panning or dollying versus zooming. Because arrows are often used the same way in both instances, you can make your notes beside the panel or in the arrow itself. Sometimes you’ll need more than one drawing to illustrate what’s happening in a single shot, especially if it’s a really complicated action or camera movement. When you take panels with angle composition on screen movement and camera movement, and then combine these panels into a sequence, you have the foundation of your movie
storyboards are pretty Pick really useful for preparing scenes that require multiple effects techniques.

For the scene from truck flipper versus bus puncher, we use storyboards to decide what was going to be stunts, what was going to be practical onset special effects, what was going to be green screen and what was going to be CGI based on exactly what kind of action was needed in each specific shot without planning ahead. A scene like this would have been impossible to shoot in the amount of time we had available. storyboards are typically created based off a completed script. But if you’re doing a story that’s extremely visual storyboards essentially can be your script like with Mad Max Fury Road.

Since it’s such a visual film, the beats were more effectively planned out with pictures than with text on a page. While this is an extreme example, this holds true for preparing all visually complex scenes. There’s also plenty of other alternatives to storyboarding, Stanley Kubrick used actual photos from his location scouts to find his compositions. It’s also worth mentioning that filmmakers who’ve adapted comics and graphic novels often use the original artwork essentially as storyboards for the final film, you can make animatics of your sequences on your computer to include motion and timing. You can also videotape your prevas which is really useful for complex action.

You don’t need the actual set costumes or magical flying speeder bikes to test out your ideas. In the original Star Wars, George Lucas used real world war two documentary footage to help pre visualize the space battles headache.

Animation has also been used to help capture complex sequences, Jurassic Park, you stop motion animation to pre visualize the dinosaur scene. When the decision was made to use CGI in the final film, they had already planned ahead and painstaking detail and knew exactly what specific movements the CGI was going to need to be able to do.

By the time Peter Jackson did the Lord of the Rings trilogy, digital technology had developed to the point where they were able to motion capture the cave troll sequence, and then move a digital camera around in 3d space to pre visualize the entire scene in a virtual setting. There’s no hard and fast rules are one way to do it. But the ultimate goal is planning and clear communication. So whatever tool is going to help you prepare and share your vision the most use it it’ll pay off when you get to set and will help empower you to make the best film possible.

What the Heck is the 180 Degree Rule? – Definition and Examples

You might hear on set a DP or camera guy to discuss the 180 Degree Rule and say:

“You can’t put the camera there, you’ll cross the line”

There’s a lot more to shooting a great scene than just planting a camera somewhere and yelling action. We all want to shoot a scene that can be cut together to achieve great continuity with a good variety of shots.

The 180-degree rule is a cinematography guideline that states that two characters in a scene should maintain the same left/right relationship to one another. When the camera passes over the invisible axis connecting the two subjects, it is called crossing the line and the shot becomes what is called a reverse angle. Reversing the angle is commonly thought to be disorienting and can distract the audience from the intent of the scene.

The videos illustrate the basic principles of the 180-degree rule, establishing action lines, working with shifting action lines, and redefining the action line using neutral shots, camera movement, and cutaways. Knowing how to apply the 180-degree rule, and when you might want to break it can take your production skills to a higher level.

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I broke the 180-degree rule in my film This is Meg and all is OK. I knew the line was there but made a call and it worked out perfectly. You just have to understand the rule so then you can later choose to follow it or not.



Spoiler

Transcript for Moviemaker Video:

There’s a lot more to shooting a great scene than just planning a camera somewhere kneeling action. We all want to shoot a scene that can be cut together to achieve great continuity with a good variety of shots. But 180 degree rule is a useful tool to help you achieve this. In this segment, we talked about the basic principles of the rule, establishing action lines, working with shifting action lines, and redefining the action line using neutral shots, camera movement, and cutaways. Knowing how to apply the 180 degree rule and when you might want to break it can take your production skills to the next level.

The basic idea behind the 180 degree rule is to establish and maintain the screen direction of your actors or action in the scene. Failure to follow the rule can make scenes difficult to follow for your audience. The most important factor in working with the 180 degree rule is knowing how to establish a line of action. The line of action is an imaginary straight line that is drawn between a subject and an item or person they’re interacting with, or a straight line drawn along a path that a subject is moving on. Let’s look at two actors position for a dialogue scene.

As an example, if we look at the scene from overhead, we can draw a straight line from actor one sight line to actor two’s. This is our line of action for this scene. The 180 degree rule states that once you place your camera on one side of the line, you should keep all your shots within the 180 degree arc on the same side of the line in order to maintain proper screen direction.

When you first introduce a scene, you’ll typically have an establishing shot to help orient your viewers. The establishing shot gives the viewer the basic geography of the scene and determines the screen direction of the actors or action. This is the establishing shot for our scene, an actor one faces screen right and actor two faces screen left. As long as the camera doesn’t cross our action line, our actors sight lines stay consistent. This prevents the viewer from being confused or disoriented. In contrast, if we cut to a shot that has the camera placed on the opposing side of the action line, our actors are now facing the opposite direction and their sight lines will not match up properly.

Taking a look at the two shots in Split Screen clearly demonstrates the concept when shot properly are actors look toward each other. When the 180 degree rule is broken, our actors no longer appear to be looking toward each other. We can also apply the 180 degree rule to action, such as a person walking, let’s take a look from overhead. We can establish our line of action by drawing a straight line in the direction he is moving. If we place our camera on this side of the action line, our actor will be moving from screen left to screen right, we can change angles freely on the same side of the line without altering the screen direction of the actor.

If we were to move our camera across the line and cut to that shot, it will appear to the viewer as if the actor is traveling the opposite direction. This holds true for cars as well. And it’s extremely important in sports as you don’t want to have a player running toward the goal line, then cut to a shot that makes them appear to be running the opposite way.

Of course, you could break the 180 degree rule for dramatic purposes if the story supports it. If your character is disoriented or lost, it can give the audience the same feeling. So we’ve learned how to establish the action line and what happens when we break the 180 degree rule. Now let’s talk about movement within a scene that can cause the action lines to shift. If your scene has movement that will shift the action line, you’ll want to have a basic idea of which direction you’d like to shoot. Let’s take a three person dialogue scene as an example.

Here’s an overhead shot of the setup. Our initial action line is between actor one and two, because they will begin the scene by talking to each other. But once actor one turns to actor three to speak, our action line will shift. We’re going to establish our scene by placing the camera here and try to keep this initial point of view in mind when our action line shifts.

This means we’ll shoot from this side of action In line one, and this side of action line two, the key to making this work is showing the action that shifts the line. In this case, we want to clearly see actor one change his sight line from actor to to actor three. Once we’ve shown the turn, we can now place our camera anywhere along the 180 degree arc of the newly established action line. Now let’s have actor two and three turn to each other to talk. Looking at the overhead, we can see we now have established another new action line.

Based off our initial view, we choose this side of the line. Again, we must show one of our characters turn his head to establish our new action line. Once we’ve done that, we’re free to get shots on the proper side of the line. While something as simple as an actor changing his or her eyeline can shift the line of action, and actors movement can cause the line to shift as well. In this scene, one of our actors begins to walk off, then turns back toward the other. By changing their position, they’ve also moved the line of action.

And now a camera position that would have caused a screen direction shift is well within the newly established 180 degree arc. You can also intentionally create new action lines by using camera movement, neutral shots, or cutaways. In this scene, we’ve established our action line, but we want to transition to the other side of the line. One quick way of doing this is to show the camera breaking the line. As we move past our actor, our audience is now reoriented to the new screen direction, and we’re free to cut any shots that fall in the 180 degree arc of the newly established line. You can also use a neutral shot in order to reestablish an action line.

A neutral shot is obtained by placing your camera on the action line itself, which allows you to then cut to shot on either side of the action line. In the walking example, we could cut to a neutral shot of the actor walking directly toward the camera, which is on our action line. This frees us to cut to a shot on the other side of the action line without being disoriented.

A third way to establish a new line is to use a cutaway shot. In this example, we might use a shot of the surrounding landscape followed by a shot taken on the opposing side of the action line.

Keep in mind that each time you establish a new action line, you are now locked into that 180 degree arc until the line shifts with your subjects action camera movement for specific camera shots. Creating a scene with well selected shots and great continuity is a crucial building block to telling effective stories with video. By understanding the 180 degree rule, you can shoot and edit your next project with confidence and style.

IFH 470: How to Sell an Original Show to Hulu with James Lafferty & Stephen Colletti


Right-click here to download the MP3

Our guests this week are stars from the early 2000s teen drama television hit show, One Tree Hill, James Lafferty, and Stephen Colletti. The buzz the show had was undeniable, and if you were a fan of the show, then you would be glad to know that your favorite characters, Nathan Scott and Chase Adams have a new project together and they talk all about it this week’s episode. 

But first, a summary of our guests’ track records in the industry. Both James and Steven landed their first acting gigs in their late teens and have since expanded their skills to writing, producing, and directing. 

James, started out as a series regular on One Tree Hill in 2003, having appraised one of the lead roles of the show for which he was nominated four times by the Teen Choice Awards. Actor and television personality. Stephen joined as a regular after recurring his role as Chase Adams since the show’s premiere.

Half-brothers Lucas and Nathan Scott trade between kinship and rivalry both on the basketball court and in the hearts of their friends in the small, but not so quiet town of Tree Hill, North Carolina. Here’s a first look at the characters in its pilot episode:

Steven has consistently worked in film and television hosting MTV specials Beach House, Spring break and the VMAs backstage live among others. He’s made appearances on TV shows MTV reality television series Laguna Beach: The Real Orange County, VH1 2013 romance drama, Hit The Floor, and Taylor Swift’s White Horse music video.
Between 2009 to 2012, James began testing out the directing pond. He directed four episodes of the nine-season run of One Tree Hill and five episodes of The Royals, which he played another lead role on. In 2016, he briefly graced our screens in six episodes of Underground, the series, as Kyle Risdin.
With the country on the brink of the Civil War, the struggle for freedom is more dangerous than ever. Underground follows the story of American heroes and their moving journey to freedom.

The guys creatively reunited to create an original comedy television series, Everyone Is Doing Great that’s streaming on Hulu. They co-directed, produced, and wrote the show.  What was remarkable was that they sold an independently produced show to a major streamer, which never happens. We dive in on how they were able to do that. 

The seven episodes show follows Seth and Jeremy, two guys who enjoyed relative success from ‘Eternal’, a hit television vampire drama. Five years after their show has ended, they lean on each other as they struggle to reclaim their previous level of success and relevance, awkwardly navigating the perils of life and love amidst a humorously painful coming of age.  

I had lots of laughs with these two and can’t wait for you to listen.

Enjoy my conversation with James Lafferty & Stephen Colletti.

Alex Ferrari 0:24
We have on the show today, James Lafferty and Stephen Colletti. And they are both actor, producers and directors of the new Hulu show. Everything is doing great. Now, James and Stephen did something that really hasn't been done before which they actually shot an entire series first, and then went and sold that series completely done to a major streamer. That's generally not the way it works. Generally, you would do a pilot, maybe or you would pitch them the show, and then they would pay for it and do it that way. But for whatever reason, they were able, I guess, the timing and the product and everything. They were able to do the impossible and had Hulu purchase their show already produced. So they had complete creative control. And they just did what they wanted to do. And they did it all on a shoestring budget, basically by crowdfunding and raising some capital in the private sector, which again, not a lot of money to do what they did. They really did this on an indie film style budget. So I really can't wait to share with you all their secrets and how they did all this. So without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with James Lafferty and Stephen Colletti. I like to welcome to the show James Lafferty and Stephen Colletti How you guys doing?

James Lafferty 3:58
Fantastic.

Stephen Colletti 3:59
Thanks for having well, man

Alex Ferrari 4:01
Thank you for being on the show. Man. I heard we have we have some friends in common in Dinesh Nelms who were on my show a while ago promoting or will talking about their whole career. But at the time promoting fat man, which is obviously one of the best Christmas movies ever made. It in my audience was going crazy for that episode, because it is just just hilarious if anyone listening has not listened to go find that episode on the back catalogue because the boys were great. And then they reached out to me. They're like, Hey, I got these guys who did this insane thing. We're part of this project and they pitched it to me and I was like, well, I've never heard of that before. How the hell did these guys shoot an independent series that got picked up by a major streamer? Like I know they picked up indie films because my film was picked up. My first film was picked up by them for a license for a year back when they were doing that kind of stuff, but a show is unheard of. So we're gonna get into The weeds about how you guys did that, because I'm fascinated it's really, really want to know how the hell that happened. But before we get into it, how did each of you get into the business? We'll start with you, Jimmy.

James Lafferty 5:12
Yeah, so I started really young, I started doing extra work. Actually, when I was about six years old, my, my mom would bring my brother and I and from Riverside County to LA just to get on two sets, just to sort of expand our world a little bit. We didn't really know, you know, at a young age, what we want it to be, you know, obviously, we didn't, you know, we weren't like, theater kids or stage kids or anything like that. It was really just for a mom to, you know, help us understand that the world was bigger than a small town that we came from. And we just fell in love with it. Of course, I mean, you can't really take a kid to a film set and play around with the kids and get to experience that atmosphere and have them not catch the bug. And sure enough, we did. And so from from about 10 years old on I started auditioning. And from there, it was just like a steady progression of you know, working my first Mervyn's commercial at 12, to, you know, getting a guest spot on, you know, Picket Fences or something like that. And then, you know, just continuing on from there to reoccurring roles. And I basically, yeah, by the time I was a senior in high school, I had booked this little web team drama called One Tree Hill, which ended up becoming sort sort of hit, I guess, I made at least ran for a very long time. Until about 2011. And, yeah, that sort of takes that takes us up to, you know, I guess, when I was an adult, right, you know, that's sort of how I was my way and really,

Alex Ferrari 6:40
but how about you Stephen?

Stephen Colletti 6:42
Yeah, I was a little more unconventional, I, I kind of first started working the business in 2004. The working with MTV, I started out doing a reality show with them completely victim of circumstance out of nowhere, did this show land in my community and dropped my lap. But I was interested in in hosting and wanting to get in there in entertainment. And so, in fact, one thing I want to do was, was to be a vj. You know, watching Carson Daly growing up and doing that gig, I thought that was a pretty cool thing and wanted to pursue that. So I looked at MTV is like, Well, alright, I feel like these people can get me in over there. So what I'm doing the show called Laguna Beach, for a season two seasons. And then I started hosting for MTV. And then I did a little bit of acting growing up it you know, just just in school and stuff and enjoyed it. But didn't think it was gonna be something I'd take seriously. And the more I kind of got into hosting wasn't so excited about it found acting interesting, wanted to study it and did and so as I was hosting for MTV, I was working on on acting and studying and from there, I booked my first film something called it was actually wind up being havoc, too. It wasn't that wasn't it wasn't supposed to be the sequel originally. But that's what who today new line, I think it was, it's what they want. I'm selling it as called normal adolescent behavior. And in that film, actually worked with a girl named Hilary Burton, who worked on One Tree Hill, and I want about shooting for One Tree Hill and getting a part there. And then it was kind of set on working on the show with James for about five or six years.

Alex Ferrari 8:34
So you guys, so you guys are coming out this whole thing very unconventionally, because you're coming from the acting side. So you guys were on a hit show, for a good amount of time. You've been obviously you guys have been on sets a lot throughout your careers up to this point. And then what what made you guys get together and say, you know, we're going to take the power in our own hands and build our own content and try to sell that. So you essentially, stop asking permission to do what you love to do and start creating those opportunities for yourselves very, very Ben and Matt, goodwill hunting style in that way, so what what made you as actors decide to like, you know, is there something that caused you to do it? Or is it something that tickles your fancy or just like, you know, what we you really need to kind of get our own stuff going?

James Lafferty 9:22
Yeah, I think it was a mixture of things, as it always is, I guess, you know, it's, it's, it has a little something to do with, you know, coming off of a TV show and thinking things are going to be easy and actually not being that easy. It's you know, getting to a certain point in your life as an actor or I guess, as a professional in this business where you realize that things are cyclical, like you're going to have, you're going to have times that are you know, really good for a while you're gonna have a great cycle and then you're going to have a really dry cycle and then you're going to it's going to come back it's a sort of pendulum swing situation and you start to realize that at a, I guess around for us, it was around that 2526 27 age when One Tree Hill was ending, right? But then also, you know, I don't think you can be on a show for that long and not learn something, I mean, really have to not be,

Alex Ferrari 10:09
you have to be pretty dense and you have to be pretty.

James Lafferty 10:11
Yeah. And I think, you know, we, we were always paying very close attention, because we always knew that behind the camera was where we want to be eventually we just we knew that we would want to tell stories, you know, for me a big part of it was being able to step behind the camera and direct on One Tree Hill. And then I know, you know, Steven can speak to, you know, the fact that he was producing coming out of One Tree Hill and stuff. But um, you know, that's, that's sort of where I was coming from is like, I know, I want to tell stories. But you know, and I know, I'm gonna want to write, right, so I'm writing scripts, and these scripts are like high concept and very expensive. And this is obviously as you know, and your audience will know, these, these ideas are very hard to get made. So at a certain point, for me, it was like, Okay, what can I make, that can be made? You know, what can, what can we make that that can be made for a reasonable budget, and that we can actually shoot so that we can prove to people that we can tell stories, and hopefully, take that next step as storytellers not just people who are, you know, auditioning for jobs?

Alex Ferrari 11:13
How about you, Steven?

Stephen Colletti 11:16
Well, I think it's, I feel like it was always somewhere. Yeah, it was something in the back of my mind knowing that, you know, in this industry, especially just with technology, these days, what it affords you, you better be able to figure out stuff on your own, because, you know, I just, I know that where I stand in this industry, and I was not, you know, God's gift to the entertainment industry as an actor. And so I knew to do certain things that I wanted to do, you know, you're gonna have to create those opportunities for yourself. And so I, you know, it's just kind of been a steady evolution of, you know, trying different things, you know, realizing I had all my eggs in that inactive basket, when I was in my 20s. And realizing that the opportunities that were coming to me, were kind of out of my control, you know, you go audition for things, and something's you really, really want and it's almost like, the more you want something more, you want it not getting it, and then a job that you're like, yeah, I really don't care if I get this job, and it's like, you booked it, you know, you gotta get I gotta go take it, because I need a job. So I think that, you know, to really, as I got a little bit older, and a little more, Yeah, a little more edgy about the business realize, I, if you know, what I want to do, I'm gonna have to, you know, take the bull by the horns and try to figure out to do it on my own. Because, you know, that's not going to all just line up with landing the perfect audition at the best time and booking it and then Off you go, you know, it's just not, that does not happen every day or, you know, likely at all. So, you know, yeah, I think from there, you know, it's, it's been an evolution of certain projects that, you know, haven't gone very far. And, and just, you know, whether it be a little bit of writing a little bit of producing, but, you know, kind of learning is something from each thing. And then, you know, with this one, with, everyone's doing great kind of felt like, all the pieces started to, you know, fall into place where, okay could take, you know, what I've learned up to this point, and in trying to get stuff made, and go out there also to say, you know, partner up with somebody, you know, realizes I can't do stuff, you know, on my own, and, you know, you got to get good people around you to help you, you know, you know, fill in your weaknesses and get, you know, get things made.

Alex Ferrari 13:29
So, how did you guys come up with everyone is doing great.

James Lafferty 13:35
Yeah, it was, it was sort of out of necessity, I guess. You know, I think we had, we had lived enough life coming out of One Tree Hill to realize that we had lived a pretty absurd life in our 20s. And to have that amount of success at such a young age is completely it's absurd, it's, it's insane what happened, and we were insanely fortunate. And then to have, you know, some some years that weren't so successful, you know, to really humble you and to make you look back and go, Okay, I see a sort of like arc forming here, where, you know, we had a late coming of age, you know, and we had a late coming of age in this really crazy industry, where the hilarious things are happening all around us. And there's, you know, extraordinary, extraordinary things happening all around us that really make for great comedy. You know, and we've never, we've never felt sorry for ourselves throughout this whole process of, you know, auditioning and rejection and all this stuff. Like, I think, you know, we've always found the narrative that it's, you know, a really tough thing to do a little bit tiresome, because it's what we chose to do, right like nobody's gonna feel sorry for you because you just keep coming back for more and you know, you're always going to come back for more. So really, for us the the catharsis and all this was just a laugh at it. So get together to share our stories, and they'll be like, you're never gonna believe what happened at this audition today. Like you're never gonna believe what I saw this party or this person that I met or, and, and and just laugh at these things, and you You know, this is something that we really wanted to bring to a show that that lined up with our comedic sensibilities, right. Like, we knew that we wanted to make a show. That was up to the standards of the shows that we love to watch. We love shows like fleabag, you know, catastrophe. We love the trip with Steve Coogan and Rob bryden. Like, we love will that best show on HBO doll on em, things that are feel really naturalistic and feel really dry. And mind humor, a lot of out of a lot of like, awkward and cringy moments, to the punch lines. And we we just felt like we were like living in this world where all of a sudden, we could see, we could see this happening around us, we were sort of observing it. And so we decided to sort of, I guess, take that and, and try to create some characters that we could map on to these things, and onto this world and into these situations, and create a story around it that would also line up with our storytelling sensibilities, which is really we gravitate to stories about, you know, friends, families, and, you know, families basically, that full of people that are just there, they probably shouldn't be friends, but they have this shared experience, or they have this shared past, where they're sort of forced to continue to deal with each other. And whether or not they stick together is based on whether or not they love each other. Right. Like, those are the stories that we're onto. So it was just all these things as sort of confluence of things that came together to at this time to make us realize that we might have, you know, a story to tell here through everyone's doing great.

Alex Ferrari 16:30
Now, Stephen did teach your agents and managers and your friends around you say you guys are absolutely that this is not going to work. No one's ever, you know, done an independent show before and sold it anything major before me did that happen?

Stephen Colletti 16:44
You know, I got kind of the status quo from the the reps were, that's, that's really nice. You know, they're like, Okay, you go to your little bit, you're gonna be auditioning, right? You should still be sending you stuff. And I'm like, Yeah, no, of course, we please do. Like, okay, just making sure. But you know, I think that they hear that and the expectation on there. And it's like, oh, man, I got a nickel for every time I heard a client talk about something that they're making on their own and never seen it even myself, they probably have a few nickels for me, because I definitely have done it before. As you know, try to shake them down to help you, you know, get some traction on a script or, like get something, you know, get them to read something that you wrote. So, there, you know, there was that kind of like, you know, yeah, they're just playing along. It friends. It was, you know, there was we had some good support from friends at rooting us on like, you know, I think people in the industry were like, Fuck, yeah, man, like, go do it. You know. And I think that it also, you know, with the community of people that God around our show, when we were crowdfunding, I mean, that really helped lift us up and continue. have us continue to move forward on it was that, you know, people were on board and excited, they heard about the concept, they would just be looking at a log line and being like, you know, what, that seems interesting. I'd be into that. And we're like, yeah, like, I want to contribute to the show. Go on and do it. So I think it was, you know, for the most part, it was positive feedback, and to have like, our communities of family and friends, saying, you know, go for it is really cool, and definitely helped propel us to the finish line.

Alex Ferrari 18:22
So I find it fascinating. You said that the agents play the long because I actually, you know, earlier in my career was I had a full films, and I got a star attached. And it was, you know, she'd done TV, and she had done a few movies and things like that, and we go in, and what you're saying is exactly what the agents would do. They came in, they did this show, they sat around the conference table, like, okay, so you know, oh, yeah, we can go out to this person. And, yeah, we might know this person to try to kind of play along and I was so green. I'm like, Oh, my God, we're gonna get this movie made. This is amazing. And then, you know, nothing ever panned out. But they needed to play along to keep the client happy. So I'm so like, I didn't know that was a thing. And when you just said it, like, that makes all the sense to me. Because I've been in that room when we're like, oh, yeah, cuz she's the producer on this. And she wants to put this all together. I was like, No One No wonder nothing.

Stephen Colletti 19:14
You don't listen for us. You know, it's like they don't they know, the road. And it's enough. It's time. They don't have the time for that. They're like, Look, this is the bottom line game. I'm here with my clients for like, you know, like, I know if this person is getting started on a project, like this film is not going to be made next month in six months. And wow, if they make it in a year, that's incredible. So they're like, I don't I don't have time for something that's two years out.

Alex Ferrari 19:40
To get paid Now. Now. I need my 10% I need my 10% I need my 10% Yeah. So

Stephen Colletti 19:46
10% in 2024 Yeah, exactly. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 19:50
luck. Good luck. Yeah, exactly. Good luck to you, my friend. But you're still gonna go out. We could still send you out. Right. We could sit now we could still say yeah, I love that because we still need to make our money off. Right now so it's, it's fascinating.

James Lafferty 20:02
You're gonna be supportive 100% Oh, yeah. Just just means like, you know, saying like, yeah, sure we'll help out. And then we'll step in later.

Alex Ferrari 20:12
Yeah, we if you bring in 5 million, we can get the rest. up, bring 5 million and Will Smith to the table, we can get you. The rest of it. No problem. No problem. Yeah, that's, that's the way the game is played. So Alright, so guys, how did you put this this cell financed? I mean, because it doesn't look like it's like a you know, it's not Game of Thrones for sure. So I'm assuming the budget was, you know, indie. But how did you guys raise the budget?

James Lafferty 20:43
Yeah, well, it was, um, it was, I guess it was a sort of a tiered process, sort of just like the entire process was, you know, we, we didn't know that we were going to shoot our entire season independently. We started off with a pilot, and the pilot was self financed. And very naively, we thought that we would execute this pilot and the money be money, and they would sell it. And then somebody would be like, Oh, yeah, we want this to be a, you know, who the original or whatever. Yeah, that didn't happen. Didn't happen for a lot of reasons. You know, first of all, I think the pilot that we made was a pilot that we wanted to make, and we were really, really proud of it. But it was 2017. And, you know, a lot of the streamers that exist now didn't even exist back then. And a lot of the, you know, bigger ones. Now, we're just sort of booting up. And you know, they're different departments and sort of really defining what kind of things they want to do. And we just didn't anticipate the challenges of shopping around and independent TV show, we didn't realize just how kind of, I guess, unprecedented it was, it's just not something that happened, there was no template for selling it right. further than that, we didn't know that we even needed a sales agent, really, we didn't know the sales agent game, right? We were having our talent reps reach out to development people at these companies. And seeing if, like, you know, they would get it, you know, if they could push the ball forward. We weren't even we weren't considering the acquisitions departments and things like that. You know, we'll talk about this later about, you know, we didn't actually know how sort of nebulous that world was as well, and how many gatekeepers that there were and how relationship based it is. So we just didn't have any of these relationships or any of these connections. So once we realized we weren't going to sell the pilot. And that if we were going to produce the rest of the season episodes, two, three through eight, we were going to have to do it independently. We were we had always considered the crowdfunding route. But we didn't know for sure if we wanted to take that plunge. It was our last, it was really our last sort of final option, because we had heard that it's going to be the hardest thing you ever do. Yes, I've done it's over like, yeah, and you know, the gnomes brothers, who you had on in the past. Like they, they did it as well. And I watched them do and I watched them break their backs for the money they made for post on their first movie or one of their first movies. And, you know, they were they were encouraging us to do this as well, like the Noah's brothers had our backs on the crowdfunding front, they're like, you should do this, because it's going to help you retain creative control whatever money you can raise your budget, it's going to help you maintain that leverage, and that control over the project or for its life. And so yeah, I guess you know, once we had exhausted all options, we took that plunge, that crowdfunding plunge crowdfunded For how many days even 45 days?

Stephen Colletti 23:40
Yeah, at least 45? Not all July, June, July, and then we extended a little bit into August. So what's it been up to about three months?

Alex Ferrari 23:48
And what platform? Did you guys use Kickstarter, Indiegogo,

Stephen Colletti 23:50
Indiegogo.

Alex Ferrari 23:51
Right? And how much did you guys raise?

Stephen Colletti 23:54
we wind up raising about 270k. And that's after. Yeah, after fees. And we had to take some money for of course, for the perks and stuff like that, we were able to, to use about at least 200 210 215 in our budget. And then we had to bridge the gap a little bit to get to where we can, you know, still have enough to finish the season.

Alex Ferrari 24:18
That's amazing. But that's, that's a success man. Like you pull in over a quarter million on a on a platform for a television or streaming series. That's a pretty, it's a pretty good goal. I guess you tapped into a lot of your fans and things like that. To help with that.

Stephen Colletti 24:33
Yeah, no, I know, for sure.

James Lafferty 24:35
Yeah.

Stephen Colletti 24:36
To have people, you know, contribute for a you know, a show they haven't seen before, you know, this was not the reunion or these equal or something. So right, you know, people were having to take a leap of faith for us. And yeah, I think that was that. You know, we struggle a little bit out the gate, trying to get people on board for this, but it was, you know, Really, it was that community behind, you know, One Tree Hill that, you know, got involved and and wanted to see us, you know, where we wanted to support us and whatever our next venture was because they knew that maybe, you know, the reunion wasn't gonna be happening anytime soon. So yeah, incredible community of fans, they're been very loyal. And we're very grateful for that. Because without them, this doesn't happen. And it ultimately was, you know, about two weeks in we're like, we need some sort of kick, you know, we really need something to to boost the finances there, or at least the on the money coming in for the Indiegogo project. And we, we came up with the idea of, of doing some live watches, where we would invite some cast members from the show from our old show, once your Hill and and watch an episode. And, you know, it offered us a great opportunity for us to, you know, see some of our cast members that we hadn't seen for a while and kind of, to fill a little bit of that, that want for what the fans are looking for is they're trying to hear the news, and whether or not the show's gonna have a union or whatnot is like, well, they just want to see some of these people back together. And, you know, to get, you know, four or five of us sitting in a room chatting about the show, it was, you know, an experience that fans really enjoyed. And they came back, you know, four or five times as we did a few of them, and they wind up just being, you know, the most lucrative thing for us in our project. Yeah, raising up. Yeah, I

Alex Ferrari 26:25
mean, you leverage what you have. So, you know, if you've got a fan base, and I'm assuming, how did you get to that fan base? I mean, did you just hit the Facebook groups? I mean, I don't think you have an email list with a bunch of One Tree Hill fans. So like, how did you how did you reach out to these these communities and get them to, to watch and to contribute?

James Lafferty 26:43
Yeah, are following us on social media were a huge part of it. I mean, pretty much everybody that follows me is a One Tree Hill fan, unless they're my mom or my friend. So you know, that was that was that was really important is being able to connect with people through social media. That was what brought in, you know, I think our first wave of people, but I think another really important thing was that we were able to show these people that that just, you know, this first wave of people that we have a product that you're going to like, right, because the challenge with an arts project is that you can't really show them the content of the arts project, right? You can't really like have virtual screening for people on the movie you're trying to make. Fortunately, we were making a TV show and we had shot a pilot. And we were able to take this pilot around to some festivals that were really, really great, like at x festival is a television festival in Austin, that showcases all kinds of television. And you know, they they showcase a few independent pilots every year, they chose us for one of theirs. Series fest is an all Independent Television festival that they hold in Denver, Colorado. At the time, New York television festival was one. So there was just, there's a bunch of different festivals that we were able to hit and we were able to invite fans out, you know, people that knew about us from One Tree Hill, and invite them to the screenings, talk to them after these screenings, meet them after these screenings and get there first of all, creatively get their feedback, right? See if the show was actually funny to them. But then also they were able to see the first episode of the show. And then you know, tell other people on our Instagram feeds or on our Twitter feeds or you know, on the message board on Indiegogo like yes, this is a good show, you will like this show, you know, there's there's something here. So I think that that was a huge, huge asset to us being able to take out that sort of, you know, if this wasn't a TV show, you call it like a proof of concept, right? Wasn't TV shows a pilot. And it just it just the timing of that taking out those festivals, we in hindsight, we realized just how incredibly, you know valuable that was for us.

Alex Ferrari 28:47
And how many days did you shoot? Like how many total days? I mean, assuming you just sat and just just shot it all out in a row. Right? So how many days did you shoot eight episodes and each episodes? What 30 minutes? Less than that?

Stephen Colletti 29:00
proximately 30 Yeah, we got we got anywhere from 25 to 37 minutes. so thankful for the streaming services to be flexible. Right. Exactly three never to kill as many babies as we had expected. But yeah, we want up shooting over the course of about 35 days. eight episodes that's a lot and yeah, obviously block shooting everything getting locations wrapped up in was was you know key. Michelle Lange Who?

James Lafferty 29:31
those seven episodes right that we shot because we had already shot the pilot the year before and then we shot seven episodes, this seven additional episodes over that 35 day period.

Stephen Colletti 29:40
Thereafter, minus one is seven that is confirmed. This is why we make a great team. So we Yeah, and Michelle Lange who works with the nelmes brothers. She's married to Ian there they she you know was so clutch in getting ours. Schedule all dialed up and and and making sure that you know, we're maximizing our locations. And it was fluid to that schedule was changing constantly. And she did a good job matching mapping it out in the beginning. And we kind of had an idea of where we were going to be for the next 35 days from the jump, of course, but, you know, she was always kind of looking to adjusted, where can we make Where can we save a buck? And you know, having somebody like that on our team, just, you know, thinking about things that we are not even anywhere on this same universe and thinking about what that scheduling and how we can save some money. Because especially when we're doing our shoestring budget was key. So we it was it was hectic, but we we got it done. And you know, Michelle Lange was a big part of that.

Alex Ferrari 30:45
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. So you guys have been you guys have been on onsets pretty much, almost all your life. At this point, you were like, really were on sets for a long time. And a couple and you've directed, you know, a few episodes here and there. How much did that play in in the success of what you guys we're doing it because obviously you knew what a professional quote unquote set was. But you knew that One Tree Hill set is definitely not going to be the all the bells and whistles that you're going to be using on this show. So how was that transition? Because you know, you're used to being on I've been on network sets, they're they're nice, they're plush. The craft, the craft is fantastic lunches, you know, lobster, you know, it's really it's really a nice scenario, depending on the budget of the show. But generally speaking, that work shows are really nice. So how was that transition from? Hey, I need something Oh, we have a department for that, too. We need something figure it out. Hmm.

James Lafferty 31:50
Yeah, I think it's a really good question. Because I think there are things that we that we learned, you know, from being on larger sets that helped us, and there were also things that totally blindsided us as well, right. You know, there was, I think that the general concept of time management really sinks in, when you work in television, you know, on whatever budget you're working on, like, you know, working on, whatever, whatever network TV show, you're still trying to shoot an ungodly amount of pages a day, no matter what, there's not enough time, you never have enough days to get the show to get the episode that you want to shoot. And as an actor, you sit around and you just watch people like run around like their hair's on fire, trying to make this impossible thing possible. So and you learn about time management really well, because you're always watching your clock, right. And so I think that's one thing that we were able to carry into, to everyone is doing great is his clock management, right is that time management is is making sure that, you know, we have contingency plans that we have this space in our schedule to shoot things that we might have missed, or that we're able to adapt, if you know, we didn't get this one thing at this location, what other location can we put it that we had seen enough of this sort of sleight of hand be played, you know, throughout our careers to be able to employ it ourselves, and obviously, with the help of our producing team, but then also, there's nothing that can compare you to, you know, or that can prepare you to for the, you know, first week of our shooting in Stevens actual apartment, and you know, the fact that there's going to be 35 crew and a two bedroom apartment, you know, wearing their work boots.

Alex Ferrari 33:27
And did you get from it? Did you get permission? Or are you did get permission? You didn't gorilla?

Stephen Colletti 33:32
Yeah, but you know, we, you stretch permission for a couple of people just for like, two days? Not necessarily. We won't say how many people were there. And we won't say For how many days but it didn't really work out to that

James Lafferty 33:49
when I quoted. And you know, you gotta like hand it to Stephen, who is you know, this is his apartment, he's producing, writing the show, he's directing one of the episodes that we're shooting at that location, and he's gonna be thinking about all these different things. And he's also thinking about the fact that like, this person today didn't wear social soft soled shoes. Yeah. So like, we might get kicked out, you know what I mean? Or he's worried about you know, getting Starbucks gift cards to all of his neighbors and making sure that they got them so that we've got you know, we're in the good graces of the building. You know, it's not a it's not a completely conducive mindset to creativity. Nothing can really prepare you for that nothing in our experiences on

Stephen Colletti 34:29
me right now. Seriously? Yeah, like you said,

Alex Ferrari 34:30
You started you're starting to see the twitching I could see the Twitch, you

Stephen Colletti 34:34
know, how we I don't know how we got through those those days. But yeah, I mean, I got sick in the middle of it as well.

Alex Ferrari 34:41
Oh, yeah.

Stephen Colletti 34:43
Anytime an apple box was just scraping across the floor. Mentally murdered that individual and then carried on with my scene.

Alex Ferrari 34:52
I'll tell you what, man like I've shot so much in my own places during my career like on my own house like my first my first like $50,000 I spent on my commercial demo reel back when I was doing commercials, which I shot on 35 and all that. I did it in my house, I'd like to two full shoots in my house like doing different areas, like in my living room, I'd set up a set. And I like because I had to. And that exact thing someone like a grip would just drag something along. You just like trying to direct it. And then you have the money. So this is basically exactly the only thing that you did that I didn't do is I was an act in it. Thank God. So I'm doing everything. I'm doing everything else. But I feel you man like you that Apple box kiss drags, oh, god,

Stephen Colletti 35:34
oh, we had a, I had this, this deck. That was great. Because you know, people can go have lunch out there and we can store gear out there. And but you know, we fired up breakfast there at like 615 in the morning.

James Lafferty 35:52
Oh my god, how did we get away with it?

Alex Ferrari 35:54
Starbucks Starbucks cards go a long way.

Stephen Colletti 35:57
Yeah, basically, you know, there was some supportive people, some supportive neighbors, but then there wasn't some supportive neighbors. And there was we did get a noise complaint, like on the first day, you know, there was a the manager who I'd spoke to how to talk to somebody else. And so they showed up and they were like, what are you doing? And I was like, you know, I talked to all that I Okay, all right, right on. But at first there I thought, you know, they had come to basically shut us down. So yeah, I mean, it's still Yeah, once

Alex Ferrari 36:34
he stressed out, he is stressing, it's over, Bro. Bro, it's over. It's over.

Stephen Colletti 36:38
It's felt like a mistake. Because after all this build up to get to this point of wanting to shoot the show. And it's our own. We're so excited. And we got our first couple days of shooting. And then all of a sudden, it's just back to back days, like in my apartment with one thing after another and I couldn't you know, once we got to the finish line, and we were like halfway through that last day there and I'm like, Okay, we got it now I know we're gonna get through this location. The shoot started for me but I couldn't tell you what happened on any of the scenes my characters department because I've my brain was just ping pong off the walls.

Alex Ferrari 37:15
And that's it they I mean for filmmakers listening now, man, until you're in the into you're in the weeds, or as they used to say like when you're in war, when you're in this shit. You really, really feel it because, man it's 1000 things going on at the same time. You've got money dealing with you've got your act, you You're acting, which is insanity to me. Like I can't even begin to begin to try to think about acting in a scene while doing all this stuff. It's it's brutal, man. But I think this is a comment that no one's ever asked this is a sentence has never been uttered in Hollywood. All I have is too much time and too much money to make this project like that. That's never been uttered in Hollywood since the days a fucking Edison. No one is ever said that.

James Lafferty 38:02
Absolutely.

Alex Ferrari 38:03
That you know, it's it's insane. So

Stephen Colletti 38:05
we got another week. You sure you don't want to use it?

James Lafferty 38:08
Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 38:11
Good. Do you want another month? I mean, we could just do another month if you want. Like, yeah, you've never you never hear that. It's insane.

Stephen Colletti 38:18
I mean, I go to Panama and get a shot on the beach. You don't want it? You don't

Alex Ferrari 38:22
want it. That's fine. We'll just green screen it. That's fine. Yeah, I can imagine the culture shock for you guys as being, you know, regular actors on a hit show. And never having to think about any of that. Like even when you were directing on the show, you still never had to think about that. You were just directing the show. And it's all your family and friends around. You know, you've been with these people forever. You don't think about all that other stuff. Really? I mean, time management. Yeah. But when everything's on your shoulders, I gotta believe that the culture shock must have been what at what moment? Did that hit? You guys? Like, was it day one? When you said on the on day one on the pilot even like, Did you just go? Oh, we're not in Kansas anymore. Like, what was that? I mean, I'm sure someone told you. It's like, it's like having kids. Someone could tell you you're gonna have kids. But it Oh, it's gonna be bad. You're gonna lose sleep until you have a kid you have no idea. It's like writing your face. So when was that moment? Yeah, guys.

James Lafferty 39:21
I think for me, it was when we were at Stephens apartment. And I don't know, this is probably the first time we've ever told the story might get crucified by our producers. But I just think it's too interesting. You know, we had at when we started shooting, we had about two thirds of our budget. And we had a contingency plan in place like we were starting in Stephens apartment. We're gonna shoot all this contained stuff. We knew that we could shoot a version of our season for two thirds of the budget, right? We just have to change a lot once we left Stephens department. And, and we were still waiting to see if financier was going to come on and cover that that final third. And we were getting to the point I was probably like four or five days in when it was really like a breaking point and Michelle laying had become set and like Sydney and Steven down and city and and Ashdown and Jaya Durango or other executive producer. And you know that like that was like the rest of the crew setting up a shot over at Stephens apartment and we are like down the hall and sort of around the corner and like a little outdoor lounge we can see across the gap to Stephens apartment, and it was nighttime. And Michelle is walking us through the fact that we might not get this money and could change a lot. And but everything's gonna be okay. I remember just having like a bit of like an out of body experience where I just sort of like, I just sort of went numb, and I just sort of left like I was sort of seeing the world from behind my eyes. And I was like, Oh, this is it. This is what they talk about.

Alex Ferrari 40:45
This is I'm dying. I'm dying. I'm dying.

James Lafferty 40:47
I don't mean to do much. And it's all on you. And yeah, something either really, really miraculous is going to happen, or this is going to be a horror story. You know what I mean? It's like, this is the moment that it hinges on. And thankfully something miraculous happened in that particular scenario. But that was a real. Yeah, that was a real moment. For me.

Alex Ferrari 41:08
It was it was like, you guys had a coming to Jesus conversation, like come to Jesus conversation is basically the set up is like this guy's Look, it's this is. And I've had, by the way, I've had those conversations with my first ad on projects, or my UPM on early, early early projects are like, Look, man, I know you've got 752 shots you want to do in four hours. I understand that. But this is the reality. You got four shots, let's do this. Yeah, see, we just say, Steve,

Stephen Colletti 41:38
I was gonna say, yeah, I think in I feel like, you know, James Nye, we've had this, like, you know, go get 'em attitude. So it was like, there's nothing that we can't handle, like, we could we will figure it out, you know, we'll figure out how we'll do this. Like, we're just not going to take no for an answer, blah, blah, like, just learn on the fly. That's why I like working with James. Like, he's resourceful. He gets it, he just shuts up and does the work, you know. And, you know, there was definitely times where like, Oh, you know, what we've Southern. So we've taken on too much. It's like, you just can't do this, like this isn't, there are people that have gone to school for this, or have trained to do this for a while. And some of the tasks like we just took for granted, like, for example, locations, like I was doing locations for a while, and then we got closer to shooting. And it was like, I missed a lot of locations that need to be actually locked. And then it was like, Well, those are kind of in the second half. So we'll start shooting, and now we're shooting and there's some locations in the back half that we're still trying to lock I'm trying to we're trying to negotiate like at every single location, it was not taking their you know, their their first offer, letting them know, like telling them the story, you know, we're crowdfunded, we're shoestring budget over here. So like, please, like, you know, what, what can you do to help us out, and it just there was, you know, you're just juggling those, and we actually had in the middle of the shoot to bring somebody on and say, Okay, this person is going to just handle locations, like stop worrying about you tried, you know, you got some good stuff, but like, it's starting to, you know, distract you from other things. So

James Lafferty 43:14
you can be driving from Northridge, down to down to Downey every day. like trying to, like putting the finishing touches on the script. It's just not.

Alex Ferrari 43:23
Yeah, and that's, that's one of the biggest mistake, first time filmmakers in the indie space do is they'd like, Oh, I can do all of this, or I could do this, I could Yeah. And they take so much on that you get nothing done. You have to bring you have to bring in people and you have to have help in one way, shape, or form. And sometimes it's it's educated help. Sometimes it's not educated help, like, you know, you get your, you get your brother, your buddy who wants to be in the business, like let's do location scouts. Sometimes it works out great, sometimes not so much.

James Lafferty 43:52
You know, I think the line is blurred these days as well with, you know, what you can learn and what you can't execute, right? Like you can learn, you can learn a lot like and this is this has been a blessing for us, you know, the fact that technology has come so far, the fact that our access to information is just so exponentially better than it was even 10 years ago, you know, but it also it gives you this false sense of security, it gives you this, you know, false sense of capability, really, I think, you know, we did learn to do a lot. And we did we were especially in post production, right? Once we got into the editing process, we were able to save ourselves a lot of coin just by doing things ourselves and learning to deal with things by ourselves. But the same time, we had to we had to recognize where we had to draw the line where like, you know, okay, we can we can keep banging our head against the wall with this thing that we just learned to do on YouTube three days ago, or we can sort of, you know, reach a point where we realize, Oh, this is what they pay people big bucks for, okay, let's go find somebody who knows what they're doing right before we, you know, you know, carve up our project more than we need to hear, you know, do something, you know, make some sort of fatal mistake, right?

Alex Ferrari 45:00
So you guys didn't shoot your own movie. You weren't a DPS as well.

James Lafferty 45:06
We did not Soderbergh it. Now

Alex Ferrari 45:07
he did. It is.I found out I honestly, within like a couple years ago, I found out that solder Berg was his own dp. And he'd always been his own dp, I had no idea because he changes his name on the credit.

Stephen Colletti 45:19
I didn't know that

Alex Ferrari 45:20
all of his and then you go back and like he did Ocean's 11. And che and I mean, Erin Brockovich, and like, he, he was a toy, you start thinking about it, like, and he was the writer, and he was, like, he's a freak of nature. He's like, an absolute freak of nature to do all of Yeah, very, very few very few guys can do. And trust me, I, my first feature I was the DP on. And mind you, I was already 20 years in. And I have been a colorist for 10 years. So I'm like, you know what, let me just get it down the line, I tried to sit it down the middle, expose it, I'll fix it in post, which is exactly what I did. But after after that, I was like, never again, never, ever, ever again. It's too much, man, it's too, it's too much. It's the takes a special brain to do all of that stuff.

Stephen Colletti 46:08
But I was just gonna say another thing we learned, like real quick was, I think was important to take, being able to understand like a pulse of your set, that I felt like I recognized as I'm sitting around on a set waiting for, you know, to act on certain acts, just the, you know, how, how quickly, like a dynamic can change, it's almost like people are, especially these long days, like people can get, you know, they get edgy, naturally, I totally understand it. And so it doesn't take much to set people off. And so to kind of, you know, be a little more aware of, of, you know, the treatment of people, especially for us, when you know, there's no room to go anywhere, we were crammed in an apartment, and we're crammed in whatever location, you know, all on top of each other that, you know, to try to, you know, respect people for the jobs that they're doing, give the attaboys and, and, you know, also, I guess, still try to provide some decent food because, you know, our, you know, we had them, there's no comfort for them whatsoever, and they're working completely full days. And, you know, I think Michelle Lange was, was key and saying, well, we're gonna, we're going to pay for a decent caterer, you know, we got to get some, we got to get them fed well, but, you know, just trying to just check in with with crew and, and have, like, you know, you create a cold, cordial relationship with everybody. And I think that also helps at the end of the day, when the going gets tough. And people either want to get the f out of there, which I understand or just so sick of like, This lack, like, we're missing a couple of resources, and you're having to wear an extra hat, you're not certainly getting paid for it, but like, you know, what, they're gonna step up because they believe in the people that are running this project. I think that that helped us a lot. And, you know, we also had young, we had a lot of young filmmakers, people that are just getting started in the business. And that was really crucial. Because while they're not getting paid, you know, big money, they're ready to hustle, you know, they're ready to, you know, to be on a set and make a film project, you know, so that was, you know, something that was also very vital to, you know, fill in the blanks of not having a comfortable set that you would get on a major network, you

James Lafferty 48:21
know, did you guys that we learn, oh, sorry, I was. I was just gonna say, um, that's something that we learned from the Nelms brothers as well. Being on set with the knowledge brothers, I learned very early on with them that like, the reason that their sets are so amazing, and people are so happy, it's because they realize that they're not being asked to do anything that the directors wouldn't do themselves, or wouldn't don't have the utmost respect for right? Like, these are guys that these are not directors that go to the directors trailer in between setups, and do whatever the hell they want to do. And they're like, these are guys who are they're on set every single, every single moment. They love the process, they truly love being that, and that is contagious. And that's what gets people through those long days and those long nights is, is knowing that the person at the top still really cares about this and really cares about, you know, really wants everybody else to care. And is is willing to put in the work just like they are. I just yeah, I mean, we learned that from that from them very early on. And just we tried to be those guys on set every day.

Alex Ferrari 49:23
Now, did you guys happen to feed your crew spinning wheels of death? Do you know what those are is that this is an old this is this is the best stuff comes from old DPS. So a buddy of mine who's like he's been in the business 4050 years, and he was DJing something I was directing. And it was a low budget situation. And we talked about lunch, and I said, Hey, do you guys you know, maybe we should just get some pizza. He's like do not bring out spinning wheels of death. Do not bring out just because that's what they're called because it just drags the crew, cheese and bread and it just slows everyone down. He goes, don't do it. Don't do it. And he also, he also always used to say every time he couldn't get something the way he wanted to say, I'm surrounded by assassins surrounded by everywhere I'd look surrounded by assassins, and I use that like constantly on a setlist surrounded by assassins. Goddamnit. But did you? Did you do the pizza thing at one point?

Stephen Colletti 50:20
We actually didn't do pizza.

Alex Ferrari 50:21
Good. That's a good producers

Stephen Colletti 50:24
producers shout out was a Spartan catering. James

James Lafferty 50:28
Spartan brothers. Yeah, but yeah,

Stephen Colletti 50:30
they were they were solid. They had good food. And, you know, we tried to make sure, yeah, you have you other options for, you know, people with with allergies or whatever, and just made sure we're on top of that, or, you know, there was a couple days where they might have forgotten or maybe those first days, you know, working through the kinks that there weren't enough of those meals. It was like, Let's go, you know, let's get this fixed right now, you know. And other than that, we kept them well caffeinated. That's for sure. This This started well, I know myself, but RDP was was a caffeine theme. And so we just made sure we got the Starbucks runs in the coffee going and, you know, thankfully, it was a small enough crew that were like our and this is something that James and I we just handled. We're like, you know what, just take our card and go. Let's get everyone whoever wants something from Starbucks or

Alex Ferrari 51:19
just go Yeah, it's the cheapest is the cheapest investment you can make in this film. I'll tell you a quick story. I come from Miami originally. So in Miami, onsets, there's a little old Cuban man, who's he's hired. It's always a little old Cuban man who walks around but two to three times a day with a tray full of these little thimbles of coffee called Puerto Rico's which is Cuban coffee or little. There's like this big and you look like that can't do anything. And I was just alone. I'm Cuban. So I was raised with this stuff. So I I see, you know, people who are not used to Cuban coffee, like oh, there's just a few of them. That's, that's so little. And they would chug like four or five of them at once. And within 15 minutes to just like she's like freaking freaking out and I like it we and all the all the people who are used to that coffee like let's let's watch let's see what happened to that act. That actor and you just see him just start freaking out like trying to do a scene. So Cuban coffee earlier, I

James Lafferty 52:15
love that. That's that sounds efficient.

Alex Ferrari 52:18
And there's a there's a little way he does it with the sugar and like, he he makes it all foam up. It's a it's an artistry thing. And it's just their little little thimbles man not even shot clock like symbols. That's how powerful and dense the human coffee is. Oh, he makes

Stephen Colletti 52:34
the card the Starbucks runs. And it is I think Starbucks you know, those are sure people that will shit on the coffee naturally, because it's not that great. But there's still a lot of people that are like, it's a desert to that right. A couple people. You get that dialed up for right after lunch? And yeah, you know, it's it's a little gift, that gift goes a long way. Those those anytime that the crew was feeling down, it was like, Alright, let's on the double with the the Starbucks runs in and then when someone would show up with them, you know, everyone perked up. And it was it was

James Lafferty 53:07
it was as much for us as it was. We needed it.

Alex Ferrari 53:11
You got to keep Yeah, you got to keep Yeah, keep the ball rolling. I mean, look, if you don't have money to pay them, the normal day rates, at minimum feed them well. And get them Yes, feed them over coffee. That's I mean, you could you could pay them nothing. Feed them. Well. Yeah, that's at minimum you have to do and that's going to be the best investment you can have in your projects. Without question. Sorry. So you finally get this whole thing together, guys, it's it's finished. It's done. You guys are feeling good about it. And you're like, Okay, now what? How the hell do you go out? How do you get hulu's interest in it? And like, you know, I'm sure you hit walls everywhere you went? Because like, this has never happened. No one's ever done this. How did you do it?

James Lafferty 53:54
Yeah, it was a series of unfortunate events, followed by one very fortunate event. One single very unfortunate event. Well, let's see we, we finished with it took us about eight months to finish the show, in post to you know, get all the episodes to where they needed to be. As we were doing that, we also we got to see, sorry, we got Episode Two across the finish line. And then we took Episode Two out to some of these festivals that had accepted us and you know, our pilot episode. We also use episodes one and two to shop really to take out in this sort of soft way. Right, like to take out some contacts or some you know, in rows that we had made. So we continued that festival circuit. We continue to take it out a bit but again, it was the same thing as with that pilot episode. We still didn't have a sales agent. We are still going to our talent agents to reach development executives. We are still running into walls and we couldn't get anybody to tell us what to do. You know, we there was no That whole side of the industry is so relationship based. And we didn't have the person with the insight or the or the relationships. Or if we could talk to somebody that didn't have the relationships, we had something that they didn't know what to do with. Because there was no template for it. They're like, You brought me a movie. If this was a movie, it would be one thing. There's a million ways you can go. But this is a TV show. And we don't know what to do with this right now. And so we got to I guess we finished the show sometime. And what was it mid mid 2019, Steven, something like that. Or maybe fall 2019, we started really getting to a place where you're happy with the show and felt like it was finished. Yep, yep. Yeah. And we're still taking it out. We finally realized that this whole sales thing is probably not going to happen for us. So we start getting ready to sell distribute, we were going to go through Amazon. We were getting our music finished, we were getting all our contracts in line. We were about two weeks away from hitting from hitting submit to Amazon's platform to

Alex Ferrari 56:07
but so for basically for s VOD, and T VOD, or just

James Lafferty 56:11
for for rentals. First, I think Yeah, to purchase for rented or buy a

Alex Ferrari 56:14
transit and transactional first. So, but you knew that I mean, your budget was,

Stephen Colletti 56:19
I mean, based on the numbers, you're saying your budget was well north of 250. So to generate that in transactional takes obscene amount of work, and luck, and magic from the film gods to make that work. So we're going we're taking that as we're gonna take the show on the road, like that, we're gonna do that. Now, we also got to go to what was successful for us and go fill some theaters, you know, like, tour around, make some stops, and do some parents kind of stuff just to leverage as much interest and bring in some income to try to get back our budget?

James Lafferty 56:56
Yeah, we came up with a pretty good game plan for that, you know, we did the numbers, and it seemed like we could get somewhere close based on you know, we've done fan conventions before for One Tree Hill, we knew that there was a certain amount of a built in audience for everyone is doing great itself anyways, you know, we felt good about our odds, really, we knew that it would be really, really tough. We knew that it would be basically like crowdfunding all over again. Fun, fun. Yeah. Just wanted to get the show out there. And we didn't know any other way to do it. And so yeah, that took us to, I think about january, february of 2020. And then, my brother, who was a producer on the show, as well, his name is Stuart, he just made a random phone call to a friend of his who is a producer who has a relationship with endeavor content. And so my brother sent this producer, our show our first couple episodes, the producer was like, Oh, this is interesting. I don't know. By the time he sent it to endeavor, this agent and endeavor had taken a look, and we were going into lockdown were blocked down wasn't far away. And this agent went, Okay, well, this is, you know, interesting. Like, he really is credit, like he really saw him himself in, in, in these weird ways. When we finally got on the phone to talk to him, he sort of pitched our show back to us in a way that nobody else really had, which was really cool. He seemed to just connect with it on on one level, but then on another level, he was like, you know, we don't know when people are gonna be making stuff again, there's gonna be a real hole in, you know, and buyer schedules, you know, come, you know, quarter three, quarter four, and, and, and this could be a possibility. So, endeavor content took it on. And then there was a list of about 17 different buyers that they were going to go out to with the show. And over the course of what, three or four months, each of those buyers passed, really, really painfully and slowly and slowly, and slowly and slowly and painfully. And yeah, we were worn down to the point where we were pretty much just like, you know, going to the park and laying down and staring at the sky waiting to die.

Alex Ferrari 59:04
Because there was no tour anymore. The tour was shut down. There's no tour. There's none of that stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man.

James Lafferty 59:11
And then we got the Yeah, we got the call from endeavour that said, Yeah, really wants to make an offer. And that's, that, that changed. That changed literally everything.

Alex Ferrari 59:21
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. Wow, so is the same. It was literally the timing right place, right time, right product? Yeah. a year earlier. Maybe not so much. A year later, maybe not so much. But that moment in time, was the time and similar to my film, like at that moment in time, it worked like they would never buy a film like that today. So it just happened to be the right timing, man, that's, you know what, like, like I always say to people, look, luck has a bit to do with this whole thing that we do, there is luck. But the thing is, if you hadn't built that product, all the luck, and we're really willing to help you, you needed something to sell. So it just happened to work out.

Stephen Colletti 1:00:12
It's kind of like it's a create your own luck scenario, you know? And there's no, you everyone's looking for like the recipe, right? How do you do it? So how did you get your independent show to Hulu? Right, tell us the secret. And, but ultimately, there was a lot of hard work that then fell on chance, you know, and fell on a right place, right time opportunity, which you do hear all the time. I think that the way you get the hair at the end of the day, is, you know, you pay your dues, you work hard, you get, you know, you're trying to you're bringing people in to you bring in smart people around you keep you motivated, keep you pushing where, you know, you're overextending yourself. And I think that's when invites the opportunity for for maybe that luck to strike, you know, and it's no guarantee, but this is also what we sign up for. But, you know, had we tried to do these buyer screenings that didn't work well, had we tried to shake down our reps for months, slash years to, you know, get it to the right people, and never feel like we got the right shot. You know, have we not done all of that? Would we have gotten to this gotten to this moment of right place? right time? You know, I don't think so. It just, you know, there was no shortcuts. So, you know, you can you can help your fate, I think I'd like to I'd like to believe you know, I believe,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:33
no, there's, there's no, there's no question about it, man. There's absolutely no question. So when does this so you basically sold Hulu for domestic only. So this still has an international opportunity as well for sales.

James Lafferty 1:01:45
We're going to be in Australia, in the Nordics. And in Latin America courtesy of paramount plus, and their rollout overseas. Which is, which is really, really incredible. And another one of those another one of those things, it's like, you know, man, it's just, it's just, it's crazy, because, you know, we didn't get Hulu, then our show is never legitimized enough to get on, you know, Paramount plus for overseas, you know what I mean? It's like this domino effect of, of things of things happening. And, you know, obviously, it shows the power of getting on to, you know, a streamer like that. But we're just really grateful that we're going to get a reaction from other cultures as well, because, you know, we've seen to have gotten a really good feedback from our domestic audience. People are still finding the show, most people seem to like it. But you know, comedy is hard. When you take it when you export it, cultures find different things funny. We were actually really inspired by some Australian comedy, and Australian stories, storytelling in general British storytelling, so we feel like it will export nicely there, we hope. But we know non English speaking countries, it's really impossible for us to tell. And so yeah, we're kind of waiting on pins and needles to see how it does. And it's gonna be really exciting. We got a call from endeavour actually asking if we wanted to, if we wanted to have a say, in the voices for the Latin American market and the Portuguese market for dubbing and we both were like, I think we could be hands off with this. Yes, this is the one we're comfortable delegating.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:20
If I keep up I would.

James Lafferty 1:03:24
I gotta brush up on my Portuguese, right? No,

Alex Ferrari 1:03:28
no, dude, I used to do I used to do translation not translations, but versioning out for commercials from Latin America. I had to do 30 different versions because every country has their own Spanish. So you you can't you can't send you can't send a Puerto Rican vo guy to Mexico you can't send a Mexican guy to Argentina there's such a different and accents. And that's when I discovered that you just can't it's not one spouse can't send a Spaniard down to Mexico like it doesn't it doesn't translate well doesn't get accepted well, so that that that that's going to be a process for you guys down there. whoever's doing that with you as hands off of that it's going to be an interesting

James Lafferty 1:04:08
You're making me very glad that we said no state

Alex Ferrari 1:04:11
stay away. Stay out of it. Stay out of that, dude, just collect the checks or just take the check a gadget. That's great, man. Listen, it's in this is an inspiring story. I know that there's a lot of actors out there who you know, have maybe been on shows or has a following and are frustrated just like you guys were with, you know, having to go and hustle out jobs and asking for permission constantly. And I'm not saying you're still not doing that, obviously, because not the ages will get very upset. So you're still going out on jobs and stuff, but at least you have a little bit more, a little bit more control of your own destiny, where you're like, you know, we have a track record now. Now we can go out and do it on maybe a movie or or another series and maybe get hired to do be on that side of the fence and now you're building a different level of your career. Um, you know, what, what advice would you give any actors listening out there right now, because I know I have a few actors who listen, as well about trying to do something similar to what you guys are doing.

James Lafferty 1:05:13
Yeah, I think I think, you know, one thing that was easy to forget, the more serious the process got for us was that we started this thing as an experiment, a creative experiment, and we agree with each other that, you know, if that pilot episode sucked, then nobody would ever see it. And that would be okay. You know, we only spent as much money as we were comfortable losing on that pilot. And we went at it experimentally. And I think that gave us the freedom to be creative, as creative as we could possibly be to be uninhibited, and you know, and being creative. And it really helped us to just enjoy the process. And that was, that was extremely important in finding the tone of this thing, and determining what it really was, you know, and shooting it. And also, you know, getting in there and edit and making sure that we just had the time, and we were giving ourselves, we were giving ourselves the luxury of time to learn and taking the pressure off, right, as much as humanly possible. At least with that, that first episode. And I would say for you know, that's the advice that I would give to an actor that's going to go out and make their their first movie is like, Look, you won't get this right the very first time it, you might get it right, but you won't get it as right as you could, because you will be learning every step of the way. And that's okay, that doesn't actually mean that it won't be brilliant, like, it could be incredible, but you're going to see the mistakes in it, you know, the finished product, you will see the mistakes. And so don't worry about getting it exactly right all the way through, worry about setting out to tell the story that you want to tell. And by the end of it, you know, hopefully you will, you will have told it, I think you know, know the story that you want to tell. And also make the kind of thing that you would want to watch. And that's all you got to worry, that's all you got to worry about the first time around, you know, surround yourself with people that can worry about the other stuff for you and treat them with respect and pay them well if you can. But at the end, at the end of the day, just just try to make, just try to make the show or the movie that you would want to watch and, and see what happens. And you know, if you make mistakes, that's okay, you will learn from those mistakes, and you'll get you'll you'll get it right the next time.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:29
Have you seen? Yeah, I

Stephen Colletti 1:07:31
would, I would say, you know, check your ego at the door from the jump, you know, it's it's not, you're not the star of the show here, I think anybody can come on, and work for hopefully a decent meal. And that Starbucks coffee after lunch is now the star for you, you know, it's it's, I think getting those people around you that that are going to be able to, you know, help push you with this project, help get it to its finish line, and have it you know, the quality in a way. You know, I think that creating those relationships and supporting them wherever they need support is is very vital. So you know, this isn't about just work on your project here. You know, you offer your ass up to carry gear for them on another project or whatever it is, you know, I do that and get that experience in and create those relationships because this is not something we're not Steven Soderbergh over here. You're not going to be able to do everything on your own. You need a lot of help. And and so you know, people are going to work with people that they you know, believe in and that they enjoy working with, especially when the going gets tough, you know? So,

James Lafferty 1:08:41
yeah, you have a really good script supervisor. You're gonna be in front of in front of him behind the camera. As a really good script supervisor,

Alex Ferrari 1:08:51
a good a good first ad doesn't hurt either.

James Lafferty 1:08:54
Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:55
Yeah, definitely doesn't really yeah, I'm gonna ask you a couple questions. I asked all my guests. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

James Lafferty 1:09:07
True? Get off your button, do it? That was that was one that took me the longest to learn. Definitely, really? Yeah, definitely. I mean, coming from, look, as an actor, you are very single minded when you get to set your and that's the way it should be like you were there to take care of your job. And, and be present for the other people that are in the scene with you. You know, I worked in I worked as a director and television as well, which was incredible, which was one of the most like animating and eye opening things that ever happened to me because that's where I realized just how much of an ecosystem every single set is right? And how much every little component depends on the next one. That was a big eye opener for me, and it was a whole level a whole other level of working hard and and it was something that I enjoyed, but still You have that safety net, still there is a machine working to help you get everything done. You are not pulling the thing along, you are more of a facilitator. Right. But yeah, it wasn't until, you know, working with the Nelms brothers and Michelle Lange and Johnny Durango on their sets, that's when I realized the power. And the gratification that can come from just getting off your butt and doing something, you know, yourself pulling something yourself, together yourself how much you can learn how good you can get at what you want to do. You know, you want to tell stories, the best way to you want to tell stories this way, I think the best way to become a master at it is to is to, you know, try to pull something together yourself. That's what they they taught me. And it took me a while It took me a while to learn that I didn't meet me till I was like 25

Alex Ferrari 1:10:51
How about easy?

Stephen Colletti 1:10:53
Oh, man. There's a few things I figured out I'm still getting.But I thinkman,it's funny. Like, I do believe that. It's tricky that, like, once sustaining your own lane is is an important thing to know, like what you can't do. But the same time with this spirit, this project, it was like tried to do is figure out as much as possible. But I think that there was I still need to understand, like, knowing my, my boundaries, and and once I know what when I know what those are, like, just don't try to pretend like you know, anything else, you know, we're no further trying to, you know, take on something that you're like a wall, just figure it out. You know, I think it's okay to to seek out help or admit that you just don't know how to do something, you know, the sometimes we're fearful of, you know, feeling inept, at whatever, you know, at being able to finish a job. And so you know, you try to overextend yourself or try to say you got it, but, you know, and ultimately don't now you've set things back. So I think it's, it's understanding, you know, my boundaries, and I feel like I'm still, I'm still trying to figure that out. You know, like, you know, I can't say that I can do this when when I can't or you know, I'm just not everything I could figure out on my own. Right. So,

Alex Ferrari 1:12:18
and, and the toughest question of all three of your favorite films of all time.

Stephen Colletti 1:12:23
Oh, gosh.

James Lafferty 1:12:25
Alex, I listened to your podcast and prepared myself. Because I never had the answer to this. You say? Thanks for the heads up. Yeah, I planned. I planned it this way. at Ferris Bueller's Day Off Nice, nice. And Silver Linings Playbook. Nice because I I feel like I learned something from each one of those films at the time in my life that I watched it. So it was like, you know, when I was a tadpole, and then when I was like, you know, pubescent and then as an adult? So there's something for me in each one of those stages. So God beat that, Stephen.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:06
Wow. Well, he just left it dangling in the wind there, brother. I'm sorry about that.

Stephen Colletti 1:13:10
I'm just gonna say. But we had, we had like, three VHS tapes in my house growing up. And one was like somebody had left a Blockbuster Video, which was predator over at our house,

Alex Ferrari 1:13:27
obviously one of the greatest action films of all time.

Stephen Colletti 1:13:31
And Forrest Gump, which I thought like, the scope of that movie was always something that just like stuck in my mind. And the way Yeah, the way the story is told the way we go throughout all these different parts of history, and that sat with me I think, of late. Well, obviously not of late, but it was actually James little brother introduced me to True Romance.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:56
Oh,

Stephen Colletti 1:13:58
by Tony Scott. And that is a that is a favorite of mine. Dude,

Alex Ferrari 1:14:03
I remember walking out because I'm a bit older than you guys. So I remember walking out of the theater, watching True Romance. And me and my friends just looked at each other, like what the hell was that? Like, we were just so shock.

Stephen Colletti 1:14:18
That's another movie that another feeling that I had there. I'll give you two other movies that for me going to the movies with like the experiences about kernel activity when that movie, like just the reaction in the theater was amazing. And then also, Interstellar was another one which was amazing going into the bathroom afterwards and just getting everyone's reaction just like oh, wow, like that was like it's that when it's kind of hard to step back and society. It's not just the glare of being back in the sunlight. It's like whoa, like where did I just got

Alex Ferrari 1:14:53
I missed that I missed do I miss going to the theaters man I miss go in and get all that experience. I just saw a picture of Nolan in Burbank, oh, yeah, is going going to that's the theater I go to. That's exactly that's the exact theater I go to. He's just sitting there with his wife and his friend just like that. We're gonna watch. I think it was watching the Snider cut there. I'm not sure what he was watching, but he was watching something there.

Stephen Colletti 1:15:15
I was honestly trying to Google that as well.

Alex Ferrari 1:15:17
I think he was watching. I think he was watching. I think it was Justice League the four hour cut of that at the theater. It's Yeah, man. No one is me. Jesus, there's only one of him running around right now. That's for sure. Listen, guys, thank you so much for for being on the show and being an inspiration to a lot of people out there hopefully, listening and maybe they'll pick up their, their, their, their, their chariot to take it to the finish line, and try to get something done. So I appreciate that man. And good luck to you guys. Keep going. I can't wait to see what else you guys do next.

James Lafferty 1:15:51
Thanks so much, man. Yeah, I appreciate appreciate your podcast too. Great work.

Alex Ferrari 1:15:55
Thank you, Matt. They

Stephen Colletti 1:15:55
get Thank you, man. Keep hustling.

Alex Ferrari 1:15:59
I want to thank James and Steven for coming on the show and dropping their knowledge bombs on the drive. And also for the inspiration for a lot of filmmakers out there who are trying to get series off the ground or series sold to major streamer. So thank you so much, guys. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at indie film hustle comm Ford slash 466. And if you haven't already, head over to filmmaking podcast.com and leave a good review for the show. It really helps us out a lot. Thank you again so much for listening, guys. As always, keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive. Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon.

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