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IFH 714: Zero Draft Thiry – Inside Writing for Hollywood with Scott Myers

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Alex Ferrari 0:06
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

The founder of zero drift 30 is actually the guest on this week's podcast, who is a screenwriter and founder of one of the most popular screenwriting blogs go on his story, which is also the official blog of the blacklist. He also runs. He also runs a screenwriting masterclass, and he's also an instructor, which we're going to get into as well. And then without further ado, with guest, Scott Myers,

Scott Myers 2:05
You know, my guiding light through most of my life has been Joseph Campbell. And that simple little phrase, follow your bliss, find that thing that you are passionate about that you that energizes you that you feel you have a talent for. And creatively, I've just always done that. And one of the things along the way was I discovered teaching while I was writing, I go and do these presentations, be invited. And people say hey, man, you're really good at this, maybe you should teach. So that started with teaching online through UCLA Extension. And then when we moved to North Carolina, where I was a television producer for a production company there called Trailblazer studios for eight years, I started teaching one class a semester at UNC Chapel Hill, in the writing for screening stage program, which was great. And then the DePaul University School of Cinematic Arts here in Chicago, came to know me, one of my colleagues now here, Brad Rendell, who's a working screenwriter, and has had four movies made. He's now an associate professor here at the program and Chair of our program, screenwriting program, and he got in touch with me because he knew about my blog. He was a huge fan of the blog. So we started talking, and it's very, very exciting things going on at DePaul. It's a fast growing school with incredible facilities, the school has three soundstages that it rents for the students at the largest studio system studio facility outside of Los Angeles in North America. This is the same facility where all the Chicago Fire Chicago hope all those shows are filmed Empire was filmed there. Lots of movies are filmed there. So the students not only get a chance to actually get hands on experience making movies like right away, very dry spirit are at the school. They have incredible gear, and the soundstages and a three time grip truck. They are also segue into working for these productions for NBC and whatnot. So that combined with the fact that the faculty here is tremendous. The support from the administration is outstanding. The school is extremely diverse. A lot of schools talk about, well, we want to you know, we're going into inclusion we want to diverse student bodies. Well DePaul actually has that. I mean, my current MFA cohort, the group that's going to be graduating in 2019, that MFA group is 50% non white and over 50% women, and it's really exciting to work with people who have diverse backgrounds and to be able to help them find their voice that facilitate their writing process. So circling back to how I got here, it was just one of those things you put yourself out there you do something that you are passionate about and as Campbell says the universe will open doors where there used to be walls. And the Paul invited me to come here and apply for the position. And I got it. And I moved here two years ago, and I love it. It's just a tremendous place to be and very exciting working with these students.

Dave Bullis 5:17
You know, during the, the application process that the, you know, they ask any sort of like questions about production or anything like that, like how you would handle something? I mean, I imagine you, you were kind of, I mean, not just about screenwriting. So I imagine you you kind of have your hands. You were a lot of hats, as I'm trying to say,

Scott Myers 5:35
Oh, yeah, there were a lot of hats. And the great thing about the Paul School of Cinematic Arts is that we've got eight area of eight areas of concentration. So there's screenwriting, there's directing, there's creative producing, there's all sorts of post, there's an animation group, that's terrific. So we, we don't have a silo system, we work together students, again, the students are, I had a freshman last year, he was like, three, three weeks. And I mean, all my students, one on one of all my classes, just like that's important to do. And I was saying, Well, I hope you take advantage of your time here. Because it's, it's really amazing that you have all these facilities and resources to go out and make these short films. He said, I'm already making what three weeks said he's already making one. So there's a lot of communication between the directors and the writers. We have meetings every quarter, whereby students get together in this big group, and they pitch these projects to each other. And it's incredibly collaborative thing. So yes, I'm involved with helping them with the scripting thing, helping them with their edits, helping them with some of the directing choices they making as I oversee some of their thesis projects and whatnot. You know, I should note that just recently, the DePaul The Hollywood Reporter came out with their top 25 film schools and the Paul's 13 in that list, and rising, clearly the number one film school in the Midwest, we aspire to be more than that. Variety, we made that list of the top film schools, so it's a, it's a really exciting place to be and we're having students go to LA now and shoot some success. So yeah, I one of the reasons I enjoyed being here is that I get a chance to wear a lot of hats and work with students in a lot of different ways.

Dave Bullis 7:28
So, you know, Scott, you mentioned that the student that that, you know, three weeks, and he was already shooting something or planning to shoot something? Do you ever have the opposite? I mean, is there ever a student who shows up and, and just says, you know, you know, maybe they start dragging their feet, or they you have to kind of like say, how are you? Hey, are you gonna make something? Do you ever had that?

Scott Myers 7:48
Yeah, there are students who, you know, and I don't, you know, I don't denigrate them at all. If they come here, and they just want to be writers, you know, or perhaps they just want to work in post, you know, in visual effects. They don't want to go out and, and do production. You know, having done some of that. I think I agree pretty much with what William Goldman said when he said, paraphrasing here, he said, the first day, the most exciting day of the screenwriters life as a first day on a set on a movie set, the most boring day in the screenwriters life as a second day in the movies. Because it's a lot of setup, but just waiting around for things, you know. So I found that when I was doing TV producing out in the field and whatnot, it was okay, I didn't really enjoy it that much. I really enjoy more working. So there are students who I respect that, but then there are other students who have to be encouraged who they have a creative idea and they've got a good visual sense of acuity and say, okay, come on. Yes, get out there. Try it. There's no There's no downside here. It's not like, if you make a short film, and it stinks, well, you've learned a lot. There's things that you can only learn but being out in the field and making movies you just can't learn it all by sitting in a room writing. And so I encourage people to, you know, all my writers that I work with, whether it's through DePaul, or through a screenwriting masterclass or interfacing with my blog, or going out to these conferences and festivals I've been going to more frequently now, I encourage them to go make stuff. This is a time right now. Where with everything going on the second golden age of TV or peak TV, digital filmmaking, where content is king, queen, Prince, Duke, whatever, and who is responsible for creating that content for coming up with that stuff. And at the inception stage, it's writers and so this is a fantastic opportunity for people who are creative and have a good way with words and know how to write and craft stories.

Alex Ferrari 9:58
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Scott Myers 10:08
To do that, and then see if they have a directorial shops that way you can control your material a lot more. So, yeah, I have students who run the gamut. You know, I have students that come in and, you know, many of them have, they can name for you every single shot and a Martin Scorsese movie. And I mean, I've had those kinds of students and I have students who come in who, their parents, you know, have them majoring in economics or business or whatnot, but they're creative. And so they come in here and they can take a double major in screenwriting, a BFA or ba, or, or even a minor, you know, and to see them light up and see them really grow creatively. And it may be it's only an avocation for them moving forward and not a vocation. Well, that's great, at least they've discovered something that they're passionate about, and they have a talent for and they can do that and, and have a richer and fuller life.

Dave Bullis 11:03
You know, I thought you were gonna say the William Goldman, quote, Nobody knows anything. So yeah.

Scott Myers 11:09
Well, that's true. I mean, always we're seeing this right now, aren't we? Dave? Like, you know, up until about a year ago, it was like Oh, rom coms are dead. Nobody wants to see romantic comedies. Rich, Crazy Rich Asians comes out, boom. Three of them greenlit one week, you know, a spec scripts Singles Day, the sequel to Crazy Rich Asians and a kpop projects in Korea. So you know, now we're seeing articles about how Crazy Rich Asians is resurrected the rom com. So people when they say these things, you know, they don't understand the cyclical nature of the business. And and yeah, so I think that's probably true what Goldman says, nobody knows anything.

Dave Bullis 11:57
It's kind of like how zombies were always, you know, considered played out or what have you. And then the Walking Dead came around, and now suddenly, they're, you know, they're cool again, and then bed, then you know, now now it's all over again.

Scott Myers 12:09
Well, I'll tell you another thing, because you know, you know, me, I track the spec script mark. And I've been tracking it since, well, I broken in 1987 by selling a spec canine and then really started in earnest to track it and 8990. So my blog, going to the story, you can go and see they've got over 2000 spec script deals annotated there dating back to 1991. And up through 2014, not one time, in the entire period of tracking spec script mark, during the 20 some odd years of doing that was drama. In the top three, in terms of genre sales, it was always Comedy, Action or thriller, always. And then for the last three years, the number one genre in the spec script market is been dramas. Again, nobody knows anything. So we're in a new cycle here. And I tried to interpret that as quite interesting. I think part of it is that people have grown up with reality TV, a whole generation. And so they're used to and interested in, quote unquote, real people. And so in the case of historical dramas, they actually are like real people, I think part of it is nostalgia, we're a wash in the salsa right now. And so when they see a picture, you know, like a script that was on the top of the blacklist a few years back about Madonna, or the before that about Michael Jackson told from the perspective of his pet monkey bubbles, you know, those type of historical dramas, they hit their, they hit on, you know, the where the reader or the viewer knows them. It's like, nostalgic. And I think the final thing really going on there is just the studio's are way into pre branded content, you know, they want content that the people will know about. And so historical figures, you know, is a way of doing that, because people will know about a figure in the past, you know, so So yeah, it's a it's a fascinating time. We really is just an interesting time right now. And it's great to be a creator, in that type of environment.

Dave Bullis 14:23
So Scott, like what if you read any, like unpublished or? I'm sorry, unpublished. Have you read any unproduced screenplays recently that have just like floored you?

Scott Myers 14:35
Yes. I just got done. Doing my 12th blacklist feature writers lab in LA got back about two weeks ago. And there were six projects. And all of them were really good. And a couple of them were just would, you know, one of them was like, almost ready to go. I mean, there's some rewriting they could do on it, but But you could totally see it. It's a genre piece, elevated genre piece. And so yes, you know, there's there's great material out there. Now, the spec script market is down this year, and it's compared to last year and last year was down, compared to the previous year. And I think in large part that's to the studios. You know, again, you're just relying on pre branded content, franchise material and whatnot. But I still believe this to be true, that if you write a great script, it'll find its way. Someone's gonna respond to that. And so yeah, there's great material out there, you know, I've got students here, written written scripts that they'll need to rewrite them. But they got strong concepts, great character execution. So yeah, there's still some really good content being made. That's the key is just to write a great script.

Dave Bullis 15:59
So let's talk about that, you know, when you're working with, with students, you know, what are some of the advice that you that you give to these college students?

Scott Myers 16:08
Well, the first thing is to remind them constantly that movies are primarily a visual medium, there are some who will tend to rely too much on dialogue to drive the action, not to say the dialogue is bad. It isn't. But for certain genres, Action, Comedy, depending upon the type of comedy, it is thriller, science, fiction, fantasy, those type of movies really lend themselves to visual storytelling. And that's the type of thing that Hollywood does better than anybody else in the world, you know, visual storytelling. And so I remind them that look, for the first three decades of movies existence, there was no dialogue. It was silent films. Yeah, we had those little intertitles. But largely, it was just visuals. And in some ways, we're circling back to that kind of paradigm, I think, because now with the box office receipts, revenues 70 to 75% of those generated by the international markets. Whereas a joke, a line of dialogue, the exchange of dialogue may not translate that well from, say, the United States to China or Brazil, or Germany or whatnot. Someone slipping on a banana peel and falling on their ass is universally funny. So that's the first thing I hammer with them. Like every quarter is, you know, it's a visual medium, you got to think visually, you know, whenever you start to construct a scene, that's your starting point, is have a visual storytelling. I'd also say this, because, you know, I stay on top of the business, it's weird that I'm in, you know, I'm more connected now and in Hollywood than I ever was, when I live two and a half miles east of 20th Century Fox, because of my blog, you know, is is there several things going on, relative to cultural trends and technological developments? The generation right now, the young Jenner, young people, you know, up through the millennials, but these 18 year olds up to that they have seen heard or read exponentially more stories than previous generations, if you consider stories to be Snapchat conversations, and text conversations, and YouTube videos, that sort of thing. And those are stories, you know, the beginning middle in many of them, and so they just intuitively know, story on a level that I think previous generations don't. So for example, they don't need as much exposition now, as he used to be, which is why I think you've seen this shift. Back in the 80s, when I broke in, what is now what used to be the end of Act One, then, is now the middle of Act One. You just don't need all that setup, get into the story and get going. And that's another thing, because young people nowadays are so used to getting their content when they want it how they want it. Now. Now, now, that another thing I try to teach my students is get into the story, drop them in, there's a Latin phrase in media res, drop them into the middle, just put them in there. They want that type of thing. They want to get into the story, they may not even need to know that much about the characters. You think about movies like x Makena, or Lucy, those couple of movies that come to mind, you know, barely anything about the protagonist within two to three minutes, boom, they're into the plot. And so I think young audiences kind of like that.

Alex Ferrari 20:00
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Scott Myers 20:08
Like, okay, as long as they're not confused, say, I'm here with this character, then we're into the action, I'm going to find out all that exposition along the way that sort of lay it out upfront like we would traditionally used to do. So there are definitely some things going on in terms of technology and cultural mindset, that, you know, we need to be cognizant of as screenwriters, and I try to pass that along to my students.

Dave Bullis 20:35
So when you mentioned that, you know, the the, it used to be in the 80s, the end of Act One is now the middle of Act One. Do you sort of? So let me ask you this. Let me kind of rephrase that. My question. Do you kind of think like, you know, usually in the hero's journey with Joseph Campbell, you know, there's, there's the call to action, and then there's the refusal of the call? Don't you think that the refusal of that call sometimes can be a little too, is is maybe not needed? And here's what I mean by that, you know, if you go to see like a road trip movie nowadays, you already know that going on the road trip? So is it really any need to have a refusal of the call? Because I mean, hell, then being on the road, is the whole reason that brought you into the theater. And you know what I mean?

Scott Myers 21:17
Well, that's you're raising an interesting point they have, which is that the awareness level of people going into movies is such based on trailers, and the inundation of marketing. And I think that does have an impact. So if you know that this is a road picture, do you really need to spend 25 pages, setting it up? No, you don't. You know, you're just you're just gonna bore the the younger generation, they just, they just want things, I think, in their storytelling to move much more quickly. So in terms of the refusal to call, well, this gets into a bigger area. And this is another thing that I hammer my students on, which is that you've got to ground your story crafting process in the characters. And so, in particular, the protagonist. And so if your question for you know, if you were like a student that came in and said, I don't know whether I should have a refusal of the call to adventure with this character or not, you know, I would say, Well, don't look at it from outside the story universe go inside the story universe and get to know that character? Are they the type of individual that would refuse? Or are they the type of individual who would leap at the opportunity, you really need to ground the storytelling, and what I call the protagonist, its journey. In fact, I'm working on a book proposal right now. I was approached by a publishing company to write a potential textbook, in which we invert the way we look at, I think, typically, or at least the way that kind of floats around in the screenplay universe, about how to approach story structure. So much of the emphasis is on plot, and on these page, counsel, whatnot, which I think is a rather wrongheaded way of approaching it. Much better to go at it. by immersing yourself and engaged in the story universe and engaging yourself with all the characters in particular, the protagonist. The protagonist's goal the protagonists want and need, all that stuff, basically, sets the spine of the story. And so how much better to come to the plot by working with the character and determine it's their story? You know, it's their fate. I call it the narrative imperative. That story that happens to the protagonist. If it happened two weeks ago in their life, or a month from now, it would be a different story. It's happening right now, there's a reason why you type fate in at this moment with that story. And there's a reason why that character intersects with other characters, the specific set of characters as they go along. There's a reason why those events happen. And x one, two, and three, because it's facilitating the protagonist, transformation, that journey. Again, this is inverting the, the the idea, as opposed to looking at the plot, first look at the plot as a way of facilitating servicing and supporting the protagonist transformation. Joseph Campbell said, the whole point of the hero's journey is transformation. And so that's another big area that I focus on with my students, we do a ton of work on character development. In fact, I created a class here called story development, and we spend an entire quarter working with characters and out of that working up an outline. So then you move into writing a first draft. So back to your question. I mean, the thing about whether there's a refusal, a call or any of that stuff, you have to be mindful of cultural trends and, you know, audiences in terms of their interests and predilections And, but everything needs to be grounded in working with the characters as far as I'm concerned. I mean, character equals plot. And so let's put some flesh on the bones there and actually make that come to fruition

Dave Bullis 25:12
Is it when you see the students come in, or even when you're working online with with different people, do you see a tendency to do that formulaic sort of plot points?

Scott Myers 25:22
Well, there are some books and you know them, I won't name them that are the, you know, that that have very specific paradigms. And, you know, I just I have, I have concerns about that I have concerns about that multiple levels. If you reduce screenplays to you know, the specific sort of page count, this needs to happen here, and this needs to happen there. You're, it's problematic on several fronts, one, it demeans the craft. It makes it look like we're dealing with widgets, as opposed to the creative effort, and the creative skill and talent that's required to write a rich story with multi dimensional characters, surprising twists and turns. And all the rest, you know, that requires creativity. If you're out there espousing something, then you have a software system that you can plug things into, and come out with a you know, paradigm or whatever, then that demeans the craft. And that extends to the experience of professional screenwriters working in Hollywood right now. If your studio executive who maybe got an MBA from Stanford or Harvard, you meet with them. And you know, they're giving you script notes. And they say, Well, I'm sorry, but your act one is too late. You know, it needs to break into Act Two and 25. Well, if that's all they know, about story, is that sort of formulaic approach to screenwriting, then why do we end up with so many formulaic script movies? It's because of that type of thinking. So I think that any attempt to codify some sort of so called rules, or these kind of formulas, is really working at counter purposes to what it should be, which is a true creative effort. And that, again, leaning into the characters see where they take you. You know, it's exciting to see scripts like a quiet place. Did you read the script a quiet place? Are you seeing the movie? Right? Probably David.

Dave Bullis 27:43
Yeah, I've seen the movie. I didn't read the screenplay.

Scott Myers 27:46
Well, you know, it breaks like, so many of the so called rules, I think it's like 68 pages long. They include photographs and images. They mess around with fonts. I've actually interviewed those guys, and they're actually coming to Chicago and the end of September for our career, 12 conference, and gonna be panelists here, Scott, and Brian. And so you read these scripts, and see that there are these creative choices being made. And the stories work. You know, they don't fit the they don't fit the sort of formulaic paradigm. So yeah, I'm fortunately for me, most of the students I deal with, except for the graduate students who may have had more experience in, you know, immersing themselves in screenwriting, the world of screenwriting and whatnot. Most of my students are undergraduate, and they haven't been tainted by that, you know, which is great, because then I can just deal with them, like, you've seen them, you know, 1000s of movies and TV series and whatnot. Great. You've got an innate understanding of this. And so let's build on that. But let's start with characters. Okay, let's start with your characters and see where they take you.

Dave Bullis 29:08
Yeah, so it's, it's kind of like you're letting the characters kind of lead the plot, rather than having, you know, this sort of template that comes in, I always say those templates like, like training wheels, you know, it's fine to use it if you're doing like your, your first, you know, screenplay or whatever. But if you sort of keep doing that, you kind of end up with those formulaic movies that we that, you know, you and I always talk about,

Scott Myers 29:28
Well, some of those formulas were created back in the 90s. You know, are they relevant 20 years later? You know, apart from 3x structure, and perhaps the idea of sequences, you know, is there anything really that is kind of sacrosanct in terms of the craft visa vie this screenplay structure?

Alex Ferrari 29:55
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Scott Myers 30:04
I don't think so, you know, I think that, again, yes, have follow the characters, it's their story they exist, they know it better than you do, they're inviting you to tell the story, they want you to tell the story. So it's much better to have, you know, we go through these brainstorming exercises like I, I take my students through, we do six sets of brainstorming exercises, we spend an entire couple of weeks just doing brainstorming, you know, forget any of the construct construction of the story of the first we're just get to know the characters. And so they'll do the traditional indirect engagement exercises like questionnaires and biographies. And I'll have them, you know, read a scene just to kind of with the characters and just get them loosened up. But then we move into these direct engagement exercises, which are great. It's like, all right, imagine you're a psychiatrist, and you're going to have this patient is one of your characters. And they've been court appointed, they have to see you, and they have to answer questions. They cannot get out of this unless they answer your questions. And so now you move from dealing with the characters and I it relationship, like they're over there, you're dealing with them directly as an IU. And so I'll have them do these exercises where they interview the characters, then, then they'll even get a little bit more into that kind of California New Age thing, which is a lot of fun when I'm dealing with some students who are a little bit more left brain oriented. Okay, so we're gonna have you go into a room, close the door, turn off the phone, get a piece of paper, and a pad of paper and a pen, or get in your computer. And I want you to do some deep breathing. It's like meditation, I want you to deep breathe in and up for about a minute or so. And I want you to thinking of that character and get into their headspace. And for the next 10 or 15 minutes, set a timer. I want you to blind type, what are they thinking? What are they feeling? And yes, your mind will go, Well, I have to do this. And I've got to go wash the dog and whatever. That's just chatter, let it go. Come back to that character and keep reaching out to them, and try and get into their headspace. You can do that as like stream of consciousness. You can also do that as like monologues like, what are they going to say? And so you just blind type. You do that for 10 to 15 minutes. Now, what you end up with, maybe 80% of it is nonsensical, but 20% of it, whatever percentage 1020 1520 25 40% can be gold, you've like access that character. Moreover, if it is like a monologue, or even just articulating what they're thinking or feeling, you're starting to get a sense of their voice. And so it is that weird thing I call writing wrangling magic. You know where you're, you're, you're believing this magical thing where the characters exist in this weird way. And so if you really believe that, then you'll start to see and hear them. It's like the inverse of that Seeing is believing what believing is seeing and hearing you reach out to them, they wouldn't have appeared to you. And they wouldn't want you to write their story if they hadn't shown up. But they did show up somehow in your conscious subconscious or conscious life. So reach out to them. And so we do all this brainstorming. It's great. It's really great. And I have to say, I've done it and I teach it to Paul in screenwriting masterclass, I have that prep class I started eight years ago, I've done that, like 30 times. That's the thing that I mean, apart from everything else they enjoy, the writers enjoy about that process. We get through that brainstorming, they create this master brainstorming list and they got all this content that they've surface 1020 pages of stuff, before they even move toward plotting. I get I get compliments about that all the time. Like oh my god, that was such a mind blowing experience. I can't believe how great that was much more in touch I am with the story, you know, an added benefit when you're in touch with the characters and they're alive. And they're speaking to you and you're seeing them and you're hearing them and you can't get them out of your mind. How much more motivated are you to write the story? Because you connected with them. So yeah, you know, I preach character a lot. I'm sorry, I get off on my soapbox on that. But I just it's a counteractive to formulaic writing, it's just working with characters and moreover, it's just, I think the the right handed way to do it.

Dave Bullis 34:32
I think it's kind of like it gives you like that North Star, that North Star that's kind of like this is where you're going with your story. Rather than kind of making the writing of itself as a stream of consciousness, you know what I mean? So it kind of it allows them to have a lot more or even just you know, anyone doing this in general and as you'd have a lot more of not where to go but also you kind of know okay, well these are some different scenarios or situations or what have you that I've covered that I've already kind of thought of out. But before I get to the outlining phase,

Scott Myers 35:02
Oh, yeah. And the brainstorming, I tell them don't pre edit. I mean, you may be sitting there typing right here, this stream of consciousness, and all of a sudden chocolate milkshake pops to mind. You may think, Oh, well, that's just dumb. No, put it down. Imagine what Orson Welles if he'd been brainstorming and said, snowglobe What's that? Throw it away? You know, no, became an essential part of Citizen Kane. So you'll have scenes appear, you'll have lines of dialogue appear, you'll have moments appear, you'll have characters pop up, you may be working on the protagonist character, and all of a sudden, the Nemesis pops up. Okay, go off and work with the Nemesis. They evidently want to talk to you right now. Now, that said, you can if you're working with the protagonist, I think he's talking about a North Star, the protagonist is your North Star. In most stories. The protagonist journey is what dictates like, virtually everything. It's why those care of the characters exist. If you think about, for example, Ron, Ron bass, Robert Towne had that great question. He said, one of the best ways to understand a character is to ask, what are they most afraid of? Okay. Well, let's run with that. So what if you work with a protagonist? And you come up with an answer to that? What are they most afraid of? Right. Clarice Starling in The Silence of the Lambs, most afraid of confessing that horrible experience she had in the Montana farm, where she saw that witnessed the spring slaughter of the Lambs, she grabbed a lamb and ran off with it. She was trying to save that lamb, but it was so heavy, it was so heavy. She says, Well, if you really drill down into the psychology of that story, she is that lamb represents her father, she's trying to save her father father was slain when she was like 10 years old. And so what she's most afraid of is the boogey man who killed her dad, the random chance he opens a door, these guys are stealing a TV boom, boom, they shoot him, and he dies. So, so if she's afraid of facing those, the the associations that she has with her father's death, and those bad guys, you know, with that experience in the Montana farm, well, so what better way to create drama than to have her face a boogeyman at the end? Who was Buffalo Bill? So now all of a sudden, you've got a specific psychological connection between your protagonist and your nemesis? It's not just generic, that that Nemesis is a projection or physical realization of the of the protagonist shadow using your own language. And so Okay, that's cool. Well, then you think all right, well, so what about allies along the way? Well, you'll meet like a mentor figure or to, you know, well, in case of Clarice Starling, that's just a great you know, it's just that that movie is like the perfect thing for me to teach because it's like, fits everything that hits everything that I kind of believe about storytelling, mentor characters, Hannibal Lecter, perfect guy for her, not only because he's tied to the Buffalo Bill case, but also because he's a strength. And so he's II can absolutely guide her into herself, which is what she needs to do. If you look at the story of The Silence of the Lambs from a meta standpoint, you know, what is the narrative imperative? Why does Clarice get called into the story? It's yeah, it's the solve the case of the safe Catherine Martin, but on a personal level, and it's like her psychological journey. It's the intersect with Hannibal Lecter, and they do that quid pro quo. You tell me, I'll tell you things. You tell me things Clarice, but not the personal things, right? So you know, she preferences, don't let him inside your head, boom, she lets her head. And so the mentor helps her go all the way down and tell that thing that she doesn't want to confess, which is the story of the Montana farm. So the if you work with the protagonist, and you start thinking in terms of their journey, you can even by asking the question, my language system, what's their opening state of disunity? What what are they disconnected from? in their, in their psyche? Their stuff their repressing their, their core of being? Their, their need? There's when we talked about need not need to obtain something but need to emerge? What needs to emerge from inside? Right. Glinda the Good Witch says to Dorothy, Dorothy, you've had the power to go home all along. It's already there. Ovid says the seeds of change lie within. And so the character of the protagonist has that stuff inside and it needs to emerge. So they're in a state of disunity. They're disconnected from that, but if you can identify what it is that needs to come out, that suggests the endpoint unity.

Alex Ferrari 39:58
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Scott Myers 40:07
Positive transformation. Obviously, there are stories where the protagonist doesn't have a positive transformation. So just by working with the protagonist character and looking at their, their psychological state to depth, you can surface all sorts of things. And of course, brainstorming will help surface the subconscious stuff that, you know, can really enrich a story again, getting off on a soapbox that day, but I'm passionate about this stuff. You know, I want people to write stories that are vibrant and alive in, you know, not formulaic. The plot emerges from working with the characters. You know, that's my true passion.

Dave Bullis 40:46
Yeah, and it's just like this interview. Like, I'm Chris, Clarice and you're, you're kind of like Hannibal Lecter. I've come to ask you for help. And

Scott Myers 40:55
I, yeah, well, I I thought I did the London screenwriting Festival last year, screenwriters Festival, and they invited me back. I'm going again in a week. And I'll be doing a masterclass and four presentations. But I talked about one of the presentations I did last year, and they asked me to reprise it this year, is writing a worthy nemesis. And my, my thesis there is that the best way to come up with a worthy Nemesis is to start with the protagonist. Again, what? What is inside them? If you ask the question, what do they fear the most, and then put the protagonist in the situation where they have to confront that fear. That's just great drama. So, but yeah, I think the point is that I do a little Hannibal Lecter impersonation, but I do that. And some people really liked that last year. So I guess I'll try and try and do that again this year. So

Dave Bullis 41:49
It's something that somebody was pointed out to me and I can't unhear it. It was I ate his liver with Farber Farber beans. Key Yeah. Yeah. And somebody said it's actually KI KI aunty or something like apparently he mispronounced it in the movie, and I didn't even notice it. And I'm like, now now whenever I hear I'm like, oh, you know,

Scott Myers 42:09
He says it but I think he's being ironic. I mean, I think he purposefully Miss mispronounced that because he will listen to the tang there he goes. With some fava beans and a nice Canty, like he's from New York. Yeah, I think he does kind of mispronounce it or whatever.

Dave Bullis 42:27
But, but you know, I'm gonna have to watch we watch the movie and and pay attention to that part again. But but, you know, I wanted to know, Scott, I know, we're kind of pushed on time. But I wanted to talk about zero drift. 30. i It's, you know, it's, you know, I wanted to interview you again, before it started. And it's actually starting in what two days prefers? Yeah, yeah. So two days. So, you know, could you just, you know, take us through, you know, the the impetus for you to start zero draft 30 And what it is for those who don't know,

Scott Myers 42:54
Sure, well, back in October of 2015, I've been working on a script project and developing it, and it started writing it when something happened in the news that basically blew up the story. And so you know, I've had situations where projects gotten kind of pulled out from underneath me, but this was particularly vaccine because I put a lot of time into it. And so I was very frustrated while I had this comedy that I'd been sitting in my back burner for some time. So I just said on my blog, alright. I haven't even worked the story out. I don't know the characters. I know kind of where I want to go. But starting November 1 through November 30. I'm just gonna write the script. And it's like, NaNoWriMo. I mean, it's not like an original idea. They used to do a thing called script frenzy, but they stopped doing it, I think in 2013. So I just invited people to do it with me. Well, it got picked up by indie wire, it was translated into like Spanish and other languages. And I think we had over 1000 As far as I could tell, sort of guesstimate people doing that. And we had dozens and dozens and dozens of people who finished the script, somebody came up with this idea of, I call it zero draft. So then they came up with the idea of zero draft 30, like Zero Dark 30, only zero draft 30. And so that became the the moniker for it. The basic idea of zero draft is it's like a pre first draft. So if you have problems with perfectionism, and you have problems with procrastination, and procrastination, largely is about, well, I'm afraid that what I'm going to produce is not going to be any good. So that's perfectionism. Well, this is a great way. It's like a blast at that. Because it's all about productivity, rather than, you know, the crunch quality. It's about quantity pages, not quality pages, obviously, right as best you can. But the point is to get from fade into fade out with the belief that by having done that, you will have learned a lot more about your story than when you began, even if you've outlined your story. And you will have crossed that psychological barrier which you've gotten to the first draft. And so now you can have something to work with As opposed to just staring at a blank page. So what happened was, we did that. And then my theory is, and I always tell people that if you're outside the business and you want to break in, you need to be, obviously, watching movies and reading scripts, but also writing pages. And so write two specs a year, even if you did one page a day, you spent a month prepping a story, you wrote for four months, a page a day, that's 120 pages, and then you spent a month rewriting it? Well, you could do two spec scripts a year just by writing one page a day. So I what I did was on the blog, we decided to do two zero draft 30 challenges a year, one in September, and one in March, March is actually 31 day, so you get a bonus bonus day. And so they're basically, you know, spaced six months apart. And there's a Facebook group zero draft 30 Facebook group, which is a public group, but it's private in the sense that you have to join it, we now have 3100 members, that's an ongoing thing. You know, it's a terrific group, it's very much like going into the story. It's everybody in there, you know, understands that it's a real hard road to hoe the competition is fierce success is hard to come by. But we're also optimistic, or also we lift each other up. You know, I kind of wish this point to myself that look, I was completely outside of the business. I knew one person and I wrote my third spec script and sold. So you know, I can't deny that reality. It does happen even though the odds are one. So the zero draft 30 Challenge starts in September 1. And so on September 30, I do a blog post every day with some inspirational stuff. We I look, you know, there's the hashtags, Ed 30 script. I look there, I look at the Facebook group, I look at my blog, I see what people are posting every day, I'll select somebody and give them an award. It'll vary. Sometimes it's the Anita loose award, who was one of the first great screenwriters in Hollywood a woman and sometimes it's adult and Trumbo award and so they just get a little picture with their name, you know, on it, and just a little something to motivate people, but it's great. And we also this year, have Harmonic Convergence. I for reasons which I can't get into, it's just too long, but the spirit animal for the zero draft 30 Group is a hamster, called scamper. We don't go riding sprints we do writing scampers against like have some fun with this, right? So we do this thing, we now have done it, I think like 30 times every first Friday night or Saturday, you know, 12:01am, Sunday 24 hour period, we do what we call a writing scamper a THON. So there are 24 hosts around the world each hour of the day. So that you know, you just pick a day, pick up, pick a time slot, you're going to know that somebody is going to be there to usher you into your hour and congratulate you on spending that hour writing. The point of it is to get people to write on weekends. And the point of that is to get people to write every day. If you get writing every day, that becomes a habit and you're more productive. So it just so happens that this September challenge starting September 1, at 12:01am. I'm going to launch the next 24 hour scamper a THON. So people are interested, they can go to the zero draft 30 Facebook group, just look that up against tremendous group of people there, we got some wonderful moderators who oversee things and there's no we don't allow anybody to promote any consulting services or any contests or any of that stuff. That's like a completely ad free pressure free zone. It's just people who, you know, want to support each other and help each other and, and, you know, writers groups form off that, you know, private writers groups, or people will say, I have some pages and I will read pages in exchange for you reading pages, you can do that offline. So But now, let's see what draft 30 It's the zero draft approach. There are there are professional writers who do this. There's a Scott Fraser five or six years ago, got on Twitter one day and said I'm gonna write a draft in 24 hours. And he he commented along the way in, in on Twitter. And he did he wrote that draft in 24 hours, it was a real rough draft like 60 pages. But that became a movie. He wrote the script and sold it and it became a movie. So there's real value in the zero draft approach. And particularly if you're a perfectionist, and you tend to procrastinate.

Dave Bullis 49:34
Do you know what that movie was called? That he

Scott Myers 49:39
I could look it up. He's been off Twitter for quite some time, but I'll have to look it up. I can email it to you.

Alex Ferrari 49:49
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Dave Bullis 49:58
Okay, yeah. I just did it. That's actually pretty interesting, Scott. But why, you know, I'm actually going to compete in will compete. I'm actually gonna participate. Yeah, and zero draft 30 Because you really don't compete against yourself. But but but, you know, yeah, I want to participate this year, I tried to do it last year and I just kind of fell off the wagon. I guess I don't, I just gotta it kind of fell off the rails. And so I'm gonna participate this year, I got that handy dandy calendar out, right? And I was like, oh, yeah, that thing's awesome. So whoever made that the, you know, great ads. Great work.

Scott Myers 50:32
Stephen Dudley did that he's one of the zero draft 30 members. And so if you go to my blog, I have blog posts all this week, prepping people for the challenge. And you can see, there's a doubt you can download this, this wonderful calendar, where you can just fill in every day. There's a little motivational things in there and whatnot. So

Dave Bullis 50:51
Yeah, and I'm gonna link to all that in the show notes. Scott, just, you know, all the things that we've talked about. So, you know, just to sort of, you know, put a period at the end of this whole conversation. Scott, is there anything you wanted to sort of add in conclusion?

Scott Myers 51:04
Well, just that, again, reinforcing the point that the odds are long, you know, astronomically long to be able to make a living as a writer. And yet people do. You know, there, there's nice to see that the the number of people in the feature film side of things, in Hollywood in 2017, there was an uptick in the number of people, pretty substantial one, so that you know, that it is possible to work as a writer in the business. But beyond that, just if you pursue your passion, you know, if you're creative, and you don't give voice to that, and you don't pursue that, that's such a loss for you, and perhaps the universe. But if you do pursue it, you know, then you're putting yourself in alignment with some authentic part of yourself. And, you know, again, follow your bliss. It's just, it's more than just three words, it's like a fundamental thing. Can you imagine this world with 8 billion people who are each of them, able to pursue the thing about which they were the most passionate, the thing that enliven them, you know, what a place this would be. So I just encourage people to, don't think about the odds. Don't think about anything other than just what it is that excites you, if you're a creative person and pursue it, whether it's an avocation, whatever it is, you know, woodworking, painting, poetry, kite flying, do that, because it's just going to have an incredible benefit for you. And you'll know, at the end of your life, you know, you will say, I regret not doing that, you will have done it. And so follow your bliss, as I always, always say, that's, it's profoundly important insight into life.

Dave Bullis 53:08
Yeah, it's, you don't want to live life with regret, or, you know, we kind of look back and say, Why didn't I do that? Or what went wrong? You know, why didn't I Why wasn't I able to do that? Then, you know, and, you know, I agree completely Scott. And I think that's a great way to sort of put history at the end of all this. We're going to find out on line, Scott.

Scott Myers 53:28
Well, there's my blog, go into the story. You know, that's based on a little anecdote I have with my youngest son, he was about three at the time, and I was joking with him while I was overseeing his bath. I said, Well, you know, my dad, your dad's going to write us store tomorrow new script, and you have any advice for me. And he looked up at me without hesitation said go into the story, and find the animals, which I just thought was great. And so that's my blog, go into the story. It's not 10 years old, launched in May 16 2008. It's the official screenwriting blog of the blacklist, there are 24,000 posts there. It's covers basically, everything you could possibly imagine. You can follow me on Twitter, go into the story and go into the story. I think I've 51,000 followers at this point, but the very active feed, they're all screenwriting and writing and creative, you know, oriented. Also, there's the zero draft 30 Facebook group, which I started back in November of 2015. And terrific community of people there. And then the DePaul University School of Cinematic Arts if you know anybody. Oh, I should I have to say this day. I got to tell you this. We just recently starting classes there in September 6 will be the first BFA and MFA a set of students for comedy, writing and film writing in conjunction with this Second City, we partnered with the second city, which is the premier improv group. You know, it's been around for 50 years. And so DePaul University has partnered with the Second City and we're now offering the world's only to my knowledge, BFA and MFA programs in comedy writing and filmmaking. So the students get to actually go to the second city site there and work with those incredible faculty that they have, who are just phenomenal teachers when it comes to comedy and an improv. They actually work with them at the Linkin Park facility over there. I live five blocks from there. And then they also work here at our DePaul University taking classes. So they're getting they're getting an education, but they're getting an education in which they're going to end up with a portfolio of content and an incredible experience. developing their comedy chops from just like top to your faculty in both worlds, the improv and sketch world and then the screenwriting and writing world so so DePaul University School of Cinematic Arts is where I am. And I think that's probably pretty much about it in terms of how you get in touch with me. Oh, I can I want to mention one other thing. If you're in the UK, and you're listening to this, I'm going to be at the London screenwriters festival from September 7 through the 10th I believe it is, or seventh through the ninth, sixth to the ninth, then I'm going to be in Cologne, the first week of October Cologne, Germany for a two day masterclass. And then I'm doing a keynote address for their film festival. And then I'll be at the Austin Film Festival at the end of October. And then if you're in France, I'm going to be in Paris in March of 2019 for a three day workshop there too, so do a lot more of this type of thing.

Dave Bullis 56:49
So I will definitely link to in the show notes. And because Scott, I think I think the UK is like the third biggest listener base this podcast, so Alright, so Whoa, I think that's a good sign. So, but I was gonna link to everything you said in the show notes,

Scott Myers 57:06
Great to have a conversation with you again, Dave.

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IFH 713: Save the Cat! How to Write an Indie Screenplay with Salva Rubio

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:49
I'd like to welcome the show Salva Rubio how you doing Salva?

Salva Rubio 2:32
Hi, Hi, Alex and Hi to all your viewers and listeners. We're doing fine here in Barcelona.

Alex Ferrari 2:40
Very cool. And I just I always love technology. I mean we're literally across the world from each other. And we're still able to do this it's still I don't take it for granted I'm old enough to know when this was not a thing

Salva Rubio 2:53
You know this is this an apocalypse going on outside? So let's just hope that there is not a solar storm or something like that. Why everything by 2020 has been crazy so far. So why not alien invasion and zombies

Alex Ferrari 3:08
Alien zombies alien invasion more people more people haven't risen up from the bottom yet from the core of the of the planet to take over. Atlantis hasn't risen. I mean, there's there's a few things that are yet to be done. But we still have two months.

Salva Rubio 3:23
We have a couple of months and 2020 so far has been exciting. But maybe it needs to go with a bank. No, no, no,

Alex Ferrari 3:31
No, no excitement, no police. We've had enough excitement this year to last us a decade, if not to. But we're here to talk about about save the cat in your book, save the cat goes goes indie. And I wanted to bring on the show because we've had we've had people on the show before to talk about Blake's Blake's world with save the cat his groundbreaking work. But I wanted to I wanted to bring you on because of the indie aspect of because a lot of my listeners are indie filmmakers. So before we get going on that, how did you get involved with save the cat?

Salva Rubio 4:03
Sure. Well, I mean, it all starts like in 2004. So I finished my university degree with theory's licenciatura. And then I decided that I wanted to work to work in films on how and I found a job in a production company which also has, well it was a half production. Also distribution also exhibition. It was like the most important in the production company, distribution company and so on in Spain. So I started reading scripts, just like so many people. Well, the lucky thing about my job is that I could read a lot of big names, scrape scripts, I mean, it wasn't just like spec scripts, you know, like people trying to get into the industry. We have show that but all of a sudden I had a David Cronenberg screenplay, or maybe Michael hanukkiah screenplay, or maybe you know, Danny Boyle screenplay, because they were, Europe is very common to show your screenplay around before the film is done so that you can start getting money, you know, as a foreign production company, you can get European money, but it has to be done in advance. And it was a funny thing, because I was reading these screenplays and wondering how the resulting feel, could be. But then a couple of years later, I would see that film, on the cinemas in the theaters. And I would be, you know, like, wow, from that screenplay to that movie. There's such a big distance, but in visual terms, the screenplay was there. And they've got me thinking, you know, like, what, so the screenplay can be a classic thing. And then the film can be avant garde thing. I think it was in 2000, maybe seven was I have a very bad memory. Blake Snyder came to Spain, actually, he had a gig in in London, I think he went through Barcelona. And I was lucky, lucky enough to be there with him to meet him and to take his seminar. That changed my whole view. Because I realized that there was, I was an aspiring writer, and I realized there was a method, there was a guideline, there was something that could help me in my learning.

Alex Ferrari 6:44
Very cool. And then can you go over a little bit about what save the cat is for people who are not familiar with it the cat?

Salva Rubio 6:52
Yeah, sure. Save the cat is one of them. Most, one of the best selling screenwriting books in history, I couldn't say is the best selling one or another, but is one of the most important. And he came and took the world by surprise in the mid 2000s. Because they were very good, nice, stylish books. They were all a bit serious, a bit academic. And Blake, he was a comedy writer, he viewed quite a funny book, about screenplay, and screenwriting is structure full of interesting, funny, even childish terms. But the result was that it was a very easy to follow method, based on 12 steps, the breaks neither be cheap. And well, it became a bestseller. Because for students and also for executives, it became like a pattern of how a film should feel.

Alex Ferrari 7:52
And can you go over those those 12 beats the Blake's beats and kind of talk about them a little bit?

Salva Rubio 7:57
Yeah, well, I can try by memory. But first of all, you have the opening image, the opening image is the view of the world before the adventure happens, you know, there's a world with a systemic problem, we still don't know how to fix it, but it's there somewhere. Then we have the setup, which is the moment in which we come to meet our main character is usually two or three scenes, watching him or her in his everyday life is to get to know him or her. This point is another bit called the themes theater, in which another character secondary character, maybe a mentor, tells the main character, the protagonist, the theme, so you should learn is, and we have the catalyst, which is like the inciting incident, you know, halfway through the first actual thing happens that pushes the story forward. And then we have something called the debate, which is a few scenes still in the first act, in which the main character tries to avoid that adventure, and thinks of ways to avoid that. But obviously, that's not going to happen, he has to go this is so we have played called the break into act two, which is the first choice and we enter act two, we have a very long act as everyone who's trying to write the Scooby knows. But Blake called the first part of this second. He called it the fun and games. And that is certainly a very important concept because the fun and games section is where the writer has fun and games no fatalities is telling a horror story to tell and is not going to have any fun. But this is that where the poster moments are where the trailer moments are. This is where you show what the people came to see is what Blake called the problem. of the premise, then we have the mid point, which is a very important bit like a kind of tempo holds the picture together. And we have victory, which the character feels Oh, so this adventure is easier than I thought, I don't have to change at all. But then we have default defeat, which are these the evil characters take notice of the hero and start attacking him or her. So we entered the second part of act two. And we are in what Blake called the bad guys close scene. As the name is surface, planing, as the name says is where the main character has to become a warrior, he has to become someone to defend, depending on which hand gener we can be in a horror film, and he has to fight the monster, he can be in a film about grieving, and he has to confront his feelings, then come three, so important bits to finish the second part of the second act, like he used to call them, they are called or is lost. She's like this belly of the whale moment that writers know very well. But then he had something called the dark night of the soul, which is a time for sadness, a time for regret, because the main character couldn't change, or didn't know how to change. And then we have what Blake called a break into Act Three, which is a moment of illumination, a moment of precision, the main character wants to change, but still doesn't know how to change. So we have the x three, and the x three, here's something cool. In his third book, like revise five beats more, which I can say, so they're not actually, we can say they're actually 17. So in our three, had the preparation where people, main characters are heroes prepare for the duel, then the duel start, then at the middle of the duel, there's going to be a reversal, something that I like to call the it's a trap moment. And then we have the duel per se, and 70s and 80s. They fight each other. The protagonists have some sort of final illumination like Luke Skywalker theory and Obi Wan, say use the Force. And then well, usually the bad guy is defeated. And then we have the final image in which we use as a mirror, we have the opening image and the closest image. Those should be different. We should see that song has changed in that universe.

Alex Ferrari 12:47
Whoa, that was amazing. Is that about? They think you think it is? That off the top of your head? I don't know what you're talking about. You don't have good memory.

Salva Rubio 12:59
So I guess it's kind of my head that I wasn't sure if I could pull it off. But it happened.

Alex Ferrari 13:05
It's hard to it's hard wired. It's hard wired. And now you've seen a lot of I'm assuming from from writing your book, you did a tremendous amount of research watching a ton of independent films. What is the biggest mistake you see in independent film?

Salva Rubio 13:19
Hmm, that's an interesting question. I mean, independent film, as you know, is a universe a different universe, per se. And okay, my biggest insight is this. People usually say that there are two kinds of screenplays First, the literary screenplays, so to speak, and then the technical screenplay. Some one is more like, you know, for the screenwriter, and the other one is for the director, and I believe that I think you need a sales a screenplay, and a shooting script. Right. And also different because many people try to write the film of their dreams. But it's sometimes so different. So we are so intense are so on a moroto

Alex Ferrari 14:13
On marketable.

Salva Rubio 14:15
Marketable. Yeah, that's the word. So investors and all kinds of people who must like it, they they become scared. So I would say, give us a good screenplay clear that I can visualize that feels classy. That doesn't feel like too novelty. That doesn't feel like too strange or weird. And then at some point, during the development process, speaking with people with the money in your pocket, then you can realize your vision.

Alex Ferrari 14:49
Okay. Now, can we go over I want to go over a couple of the genres that you that you kind of spoke about in your book, which I thought I loved the names of these. So Did the how to save a cat approaches the specific genres. So monster in the house?

Salva Rubio 15:06
Yeah, well, let me start by saying that the generators are really useful. I mean, these are an individual like in sort of invented them is what we could call universally storylines. And every story fits one of them. So there's like a kind of short talk to understand each other. I mean, normal gingers are like westerns, which are movies with Cowboys, usually, or horror movies, movies with a monster so but sometimes you have a Western, there's a guy with a heart, but can be a horror story can be a comedy. It can be, you know, it's a problem because traditional gingers don't tell you the story. They just speak about the aesthetics. And that is Berlin. When do you need someone to picture in their mind your screenplay? So the Blake Snyder generous, they tell the story. So monster in the house, for example, is usually horror look always horrible is usually horror. And what is cool about the generous is that Blake, yeah. Is that for this generous to work? You need a few elements. And if those elements are not there, well, it's going to feel incomplete. You know? So for example, monster in the house, as the name says, have a monster with a supernatural creature. Do you need a house? Do you need people locked inside a place to neither maybe a mansion? Maybe a hospital? Or maybe a country? Like in 20 days later?

Alex Ferrari 16:48
In the 2020? Or 20 days later? Yeah.

Salva Rubio 16:51
London 20 days later. Yeah. So then you need a couple things more like for example, you need a sin. People need to be served, what the what is happening to them. And then you see to have enough elements for a page to come before refer to her as a woman Jenner that can help people understand your film, but it's things you can do, you can throw in the elements that are going to make that story original, like you're writing a slasher film. Well, we know they're all the same, but you can say so this is a slasher, with this new Monster of inventing or in this new setting. There's no one no one has ever done. And I think it's a way to focus really soon in those original points your needs your script needs to have.

Alex Ferrari 17:45
So kind of like alien was obviously a monster in the house. But it was the first time that anyone had done it in a spaceship before. That's it. Yeah. Now, the Golden Fleece. How does? What does that genre?

Salva Rubio 18:01
Well, the Golden Fleece are basically wrote movies. They basically wrote movies and Golden Fleece is an element in Greek mythology. The whole Golden Fleece was something like a lamp. I'm not sure

Alex Ferrari 18:16
if it was a lamb. It was a lamb like, thing.

Salva Rubio 18:20
Yeah, skin, lambskin skin. skin was magical. And it could turn anyone into a powerful person. But it was guarded by a dragon in a very distant part of the Mediterranean. And you have to physically go there. So these are the most basic stories like in Joseph Campbell's hero's journey, which hero has to go somewhere and get something to be happier to be healthier for his for his community. But this can be for example, this great film by David Lynch. This straight story. You know, it was about an old man going in a tractor. Yeah, America. But that's it. It's a movie after all. So we also need a few elements. We need a road network sampaoli in in The Wizard of Oz, the road is what the yellow brick road. But in this film I just mentioned, alleys are a little missing. Chinese away from Albuquerque to Los Angeles. Do you need a team, the team is the people that are going with you or that you are going to find in the way for example, in Little Miss Sunshine is the family but it's important to see that the family of Little Miss Sunshine and the companions of Dorothy in Wizard of Oz, they're kind of similar. One of them is a heart or one is the brain, blue is the wheel and so on. And the funny thing about These Jenner is that Junaid wells Blake code wrote apple at the end. Do you need some sort of disillusionment or deception at the end? Every character that arrives to the end of the physical journey will find news. We'll find that that which they were looking for, like for example, the Wizard of Oz, I want to go home when you realize that the Wizard of Oz is a fraud. Fake and well, you cannot go home using his power. You need to go home by your own means. That's what this this is sorry. Sorry about now,

Alex Ferrari 20:39
Dude with a problem. So another cool one.

Salva Rubio 20:43
Yeah, well do with a problem is basically thrillers, and action films, do a problem. As you can see, all of these have like mythological origin. In fact, in the city catalog, we have been publishing a few articles about how these generals have their origin in mythological tales. And in truth, a problem. It could be the Hercules story. He was a normal guy. He wouldn't have been he was special, but all of a sudden, he was tested by the gods. So dude, we are rolling out those stories. Like for example, guy, Hart, McLean, and Hercules they're the same guy. They are. Ordinary guys pursues extraordinary art. And well, they need to find their own strength and their own power they need to believe in themselves to to defeat the gods themselves. So Well, that's a really intense gener

Alex Ferrari 21:53
So it's onra like that a lot of the examples you just gave are very big movies. big big movie. So in the indie world Are there examples? Because dude with a problem like diehard for indies is a little rough, though it can't be done. I guess if you're like in a school somewhere. The school is taken over by terrorists. You're the kid. So I'm just writing a story right now. And you're you're the kid is john McClane. It's basically home alone. But but on an indie budget. Are there any examples of like specifically, like due to the the problem? Or the Golden Fleece or monster in the house? Obviously, most horror films are monsters, low budget, but like low budget, more indie stuff?

Salva Rubio 22:33
Yeah, sure. In in, in the book in civic art goes to the Indies. There's 50 films that we go, we analyzed. And there's 10 genders, five films for each gender, and all of them are independent. Like, for example, let me just tell you the five we have a monster in the house. We have 28 days later, we have the lives of others, which won the Academy Award for Best Foreign Film. We have the Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Yeah, we have the Yeah. And The Blair Witch Project. Of course, what's so cheap, you know, a couple of cameras and, and then we have funny games, which again, is only one location and Golden Fleece, we have a Little Miss Sunshine. We have old brother reservoir rocks, the strange story which is mentioned and the full moon, people may see for Monty Lesnar, a rogue film in this category, you also have the role to perfection films in which people get better doing something you know.

Alex Ferrari 23:44
So no, so like so another genre that that I saw in the book was the superhero genre. Now a lot of people think when they think superhero, they think Marvel they think DC they think Superman or Spider Man or x men are one of these big budget things. How can you apply the superhero genre in the indie world?

Salva Rubio 24:05
Well, the funny thing is that superheroes existed before they kept superheroes, you know, as a superhero in musical terms. It was a different person with special abilities. It could be physical abilities, like for example, Achilles, he was invulnerable, you know, no one could bullets or arrows couldn't hurt him. That's a superhero in my book, you know, he had his own kryptonite, which was the Achilles heel. So this kind of characters have been around, they're always in. This can be normal people so to speak, their powers may not be evident. their powers may not be like flying or having x rays in their eyes. But charisma can be a superpower. Like any politician can tell you, or the ability to inspire others, right in our list. We have for example, Erin Brockovich. As you remember, it was an indie. And it was a film by Steven Soderbergh. And it was a woman that was she defeated a big company out of her willpower, not of her love for other people. That is also a superhero. The others we have is fantastic, Mr. Fox, you know how you remember how he became the leader of his pack. We also have a rubber seal, I turn yellow, and also the Elephant Man, because the super hero Jenner, my favorite thing about it is that people with, you know, underdogs, and people which are ignored by society, they are really powerful because they know how to survive in very harsh environments, like the normal world for you and me, is not really dangerous. But for many people with disabilities, for example, there are my world is a challenge, go wave. That's why they are so brave. And so that's why we have the Elephant Man. And we have a proper comic book superhero in this list, which also was an indie. I'm sure you remember it. We made it was the crow. Sure.

Alex Ferrari 26:25
Yeah. And the Crow was wasn't in the in the production. Yeah, and I'm going to be having the director of that. That film on the show very, very soon. Alex Ferrari is Yeah, he's I'm super excited to have him on the on the indie film hustle podcast, because I love the crow. I thought the Crow was it's a masterpiece. I mean, obviously, it was tragic. What happened with Brandon Lee in this and all of that, but the movie itself is it's almost an anti superhero film, you

Salva Rubio 26:57
know what I mean? But the comic book was great. I mean, if you can read it, it's great. But also the people kept their hearing you they will realize that the people that are watching this they will realize I'm I'm I know him. So the Chroma middle has failed the 90s Oh, sure.

Alex Ferrari 27:20
Oh, yeah, that soundtrack Stone Temple Pilots, Nine Inch Nails. Oh, good.

Salva Rubio 27:24
Fonterra

Alex Ferrari 27:25
Good stuff. Good. I think Smashing Pumpkins was on there as well. I think there was a song by Smashing Pumpkins. It was amazing. It was a great, great soundtrack. It was just at the same time I was in college. So I was watching. I was watching that movie and listen to that soundtrack constantly in the 90s. But yeah, and then I'd like to thinking about superhero as well. Like someone like Sherlock Holmes. He has a superhero power, which is his intellect. So a lot of times the superhero genre, even in the indie world can be someone who's just smarter than everybody else, or has this like he's excellent at a specific thing that nobody else is they are a high achievers are, are their abilities in a one area is so far beyond everybody else that that is considered a superhero. Correct?

Salva Rubio 28:09
Correct. Also, because most superheroes at some point, are rejected by society. I mean, the lesson in the classic superhero, and I'm talking about made, especially the lesson is that many of them will be rejected because they are too powerful or because people are envious of their power or because they inspire people. So they are dangerous. I mean, like, for example, a film like Malcolm X for candy, or films about Che Guevara, those are films about political leaders, but they can be told as a superhero story because they have power, which is inspiring people and leaving them to freedom and that is dangerous for the bad guys

Alex Ferrari 28:55
Or the establishment if, if it goes against the establishment, that's a great I never thought about Gandhi and Michael max as a superheroes, but I guess that is a broad definition of what a superhero is, which is anybody who has an ability that nobody else has, and makes them special. Hence, superhero superhero. Yeah. Not another genre loved. And I'd love to hear your take on it is when the full triumphs, which is a great indie. It could be a great indie genre.

Salva Rubio 29:32
Yeah, he's really into material. I mean, the full childfund is another story that has its roots in the mythical past. But it's it's good material, especially for comedy because the fall triumphant is basically the story of the the village for I think that's the also the name in English and is about their character, that underdog which everyone just ignores because Okay, he's a silly or hero See the world as the rest of the people, or? Well, I mean Helios looks or feels like, full. But I love these general because, you know, once you start with that word, mostly stories, you start with a character, which needs to change the neither a transformation. So some of them start being like a bit, let's say wrong or bad, a bit stupid, a bit evil, whatever, they have a flaw, and they need to work on that flaw. But fools in firms full are mostly well meant they are mostly good people. So they cannot just have a normal arc, like our characters could imply for them to become worse. So, in this in this dinner, the kind of change we're aiming for is adaptation, the need to adapt to the world without losing their inner light, you know, without losing that which makes them nice and special.

Alex Ferrari 31:06
So like Forrest Gump is a good example of of that, like he Forrest Gump doesn't change. But he had gaps from when he's a boy all the way to the end, being a multi millionaire, ex Vietnam vet Medal of Honor winner, and all the other amazing things that happens to that guy, but he does adapt to the world. But he never changes he, he doesn't get harsher. He doesn't change his inner light. Can you give us a couple of examples of indies in that genre? Sure.

Salva Rubio 31:38
I need to say also that the book is called civico goes to the Indies. And it also includes European fields, which are technically indies and Altera films in general. So that's why in this category we have for example, the King's speech,

Alex Ferrari 31:54
Which was appealing was it was a it was a Europe was a minute, it was a European that wasn't a European movie, was it?

Salva Rubio 31:59
Yeah. Yeah. It was very interesting.

Alex Ferrari 32:02
Yeah. But it was independent is a loose term with that, because it won the Oscar looked fantastic.

Salva Rubio 32:09
Do you mean that it was Yeah, it was crazy. But I think production wise, I mean, we were very careful. I don't remember the details. But I think we were very careful to select fields that would fit in the band. Okay. Otherwise, what

Alex Ferrari 32:23
Considering can it's not a studio project, to say the least, and is definitely an indie story, to say the least. Because that's not something the studio would pick up. They might pick it up for distribution after it's made. I think that's what happened with King's speech. Do you have some other examples?

Salva Rubio 32:39
Yes, sure. For example, life is beautiful. We also won an Academy Award. Sure. It's an Italian film. And also, there was a film that made huge waves in the past, but is it's been like sort of forgotten, but it's a great film is called the artist.

Alex Ferrari 32:57
Oh, yeah. The one that was the one that won the Oscar?

Salva Rubio 33:01
Yeah. Yeah, yes, it was the black and white film about sound film and siren film, and how our character had to adapt. And we have a couple more we have Boogie Nights, which is these Well, before in the in the poor industry in the 70s. They also must understand us a terrific film. And we have a special category for Rs film, which is the dark for his people which are playing for, but they want to take advantage of others. And that is much point. Oh, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 33:44
Yeah. And that's Yeah, that's the the dark fool is interesting, a concept as well. There's so many different and in the book, you go through all these different movie examples, which are great. So you really can kind of connect the genre with actual films that you can kind of start applying to in your scripts. Which brings me to my next question. When a screenwriter is working on a screenplay, specifically aiming it at an independent film market? Should they be thinking about budget? Should they be thinking about how it's going to get produced? Or should they just kind of go wild?

Salva Rubio 34:19
I think if it's if it's your first film, you should have the budget into consideration, obviously, because they will trust you if you can make a cheap film. And it works and it looks great. It says that you're a good general in this fight in this battle. It says that with very few elements, you can make a worthy thing. You're not afraid one of the very good film in this regard, is let me check because sometimes I forget the names. I'm sure your listeners remember pie. Yeah, first of all, Darren Aronofsky Which was grainy and dark. And it was so cheap. But that made it so special. There's no film alike. So I think if you aim for, what can I do with a little money? How can I make this look special, not maybe great because some people put all their money in trying to make the film look professional. With that same make look special. It could look different as a director, and show your identity and show us what you can do with what you have.

Alex Ferrari 35:37
But also, I think that takes a level of, of not only bravery, but also of someone who's extremely comfortable in their own skin. Because I know as when I was coming up, you try to emulate other directors, you try to emulate other storytellers, other screenwriters, because you're afraid of your own voice, you maybe haven't found it yet. You haven't developed it yet. And you're afraid to put yourself out there completely, wholly. But these examples of you that you've talked about many of those screenwriters and directors, like pi is a fantastic example. He was a young director and just came out and did exactly what he wanted in a very, like there's still no film look that looks like pie. Pie was this grainy black and white 16 millimeter, high kinetic energy, wonderful story myth mysticism in it. It was an amazing introductory film, and but it's, you could just see the bravery in it. I mean, Reservoir Dogs, obviously, it's a great example of that as well. I mean, look at you know, and, and his writing and how he shot it and what he did. It's, it's remarkable, but I think you you do need to have a sense of comfortability as an artist, I think that goes for any artist, right? In any genre. And any, any, any any craft, whether it's musician, whether it's art, painting, writing,

Salva Rubio 37:02
Yeah, I mean, sometimes you should temptation to say, well, maybe if I don't do what I like, and I do what they like, maybe I can have a shot at the rate. But, you know, I think life's very short. And sometimes you don't get many chances. So I would be happier with with shooting the film I like, and I can be proud of when I can show my family. And I can say to my friends, this is what this is sorry, I've been meaning to sell for all this time. And if that is the last thing, and the last film, I should, okay, so be it. But I'm proud, you know. But if I just go with what they want, I am going to be restless. And I'm going to be you know, sort of unhappy maybe. So, some people don't have the choice. And some people do go and you know, they they shoot something they are hired to shoot and then they go on to make their own stuff. And that is great also. But if I had to choose, I would always choose. I'll do what I want, and then see what they want.

Alex Ferrari 38:12
Exactly. And it's it's a difficult path regardless, as a as a screenwriter, as a director, especially in the indie space. Do you have any advice on getting your screenplay, your independent film, screenplay produced, anything that you can kind of put in there, or present ation, or whatever? Anything that you could do as a writer to help you have a better shot of actually getting produced?

Salva Rubio 38:36
Well, I mean, the world right now, as we were seeing the world is crazy. It's crazy, in a good sense. I grew up I mean, I grew up professionally reading all these screenwriting books from the 70s, and the 80s, and the 90s. And they all said the same thing. Right, the script in this way, and then you print it and then there's a three punch thing. And then you send me with an introduction. And that is out. I mean, that is God and not valid anymore. So we're writing history, we are finding new ways to do it. So I always say if you have a mobile phone in your pocket, should the film shoot the damn film tomorrow, get your friends and do it and then show it in YouTube or whatever. Because for me right now the difference is not making that big film that will put you on the map is making a ton of films, short films, episodes, art, whatever, get you to get into the industry, have friends that will help you with your films do will help them with their friends and then this guy knows one guy and then he puts you in touch and things happen outside your room and things happiness I home and you need to meet as many people as you can help them as much as you can. I think that the gears start moving. And then at some point, you have a chance. But if you try to do everything by yourself, what does it mean to be difficult?

Alex Ferrari 40:12
Very, very, very much. Trust me, I've done it myself. So it's not that easy to do. Now, what's up? What's up? What's next for you? What are you working on?

Salva Rubio 40:23
Right now, I just finished a new draft of an animation film and doing for it's a co production is a production company, New York and in Spain. So they are trying to build you know, this project, animation or young our thing plus, we could say that, and also I'm doing a lot of graphic novel stuff, which, in in the US is mostly superheroes in the comic books and graphic novels. But here, we have many more Jenner's if I may say, so I just have a graphic novel released in the US by the US Naval Institute, and its concentration camps story is a real story about the Spaniards that were in Nazi concentration camps, which is something that not many people know. And it's about the Gracie plan. Some of them of them have to steal pictures of all what was happening in the camp and take them out for the world to know. They do. It is not really a woman's story. Well, it's fascinating. So I invite you to read the photographer of my 1000 is called Ivan, US Naval Institute. And that's the last thing I released in America. Very cool.

Alex Ferrari 41:47
Now I'm gonna ask you a few questions. I asked all my guests. What are three screenplays every screenwriter should read?

Salva Rubio 41:54
Oh my god. You know first name pops in my head always is John Cameron.

Alex Ferrari 41:59
James Cameron redacted said Yeah.

Salva Rubio 42:02
James James Cameron. He writes so well. So I would say anything by James Cameron. Like for example, aliens. Could be great. Little Miss Sunshine. It's hidden hidden piece.

Alex Ferrari 42:14
He didn't do that one. Oh, you do? James Cameron didn't do aliens. But little Mr. Johnson. Other one?

Salva Rubio 42:19
Yeah, that's another one.

Alex Ferrari 42:21
I was gonna say I don't remember James Cameron. Because that would I would actually watch James Cameron's A Little Miss Sunshine. That would be amazing.

Salva Rubio 42:28
It would be a different phone as he called. Little, big dark night.

Alex Ferrari 42:35
And there'll be some sort of 3d animal or creature?

Salva Rubio 42:39
No, I didn't watch another one. Yeah. Broly. You know, I've been the first Indiana Jones are some films like Gauss, because they are straight to the point funny scenes quick to read. Okay, Yes, they are. Hollywood script, but why not? Anyway, you know, each year we have, we're lucky because the academy publishes only screenplays. And there's a few indies in there. So that's also to take into consideration. And just let me say, one, one more. It's a more love by Michael haymaking. Because it will break any expectation is of 67 page script that results in a film of 127 minutes. So you know people that say no, it's one page one minute. Well, not always.

Alex Ferrari 43:40
Not always. That's not a that's not a script to look at proper formatting. But it does the job, but it does the job.

Salva Rubio 43:50
Because what Yeah, good.

Alex Ferrari 43:51
So what advice would you give a screenwriter wanting to break into the business today?

Salva Rubio 43:57
Let's say write a ton of stuff. Let's say don't write 123 screenplays out thing you're down and your talent is there? No, right one every two months, or every three months or every four months but right one finish another? Keep making friends. And somehow if you have 10 screenplays is easier to make you that if you have to.

Alex Ferrari 44:24
And where can people find out more about save the cat and your book?

Salva Rubio 44:28
Well, this blog is save the cat.com weekly there's articles and new beat sheets. So if you're interested, there's a ton of research material there. And my own website is sour Rubio dot info. Just like my name. Well, there's this stuff I've been polishing lately.

Alex Ferrari 44:50
Very cool Salva man, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been It was a wonderful talking indie save the cat. I'm a fan of save the cat. I love it. I talked to everybody and I talked to all the different kinds of story systems and I just find that they all are going to the same place. We're all trying to tell good stories at the end of the day, so I do appreciate you coming on man and sharing sharing your knowledge with us.

Salva Rubio 45:16
Thank you so much, Alex. I'm thanks for everyone for listening. And you know, don't give up. Keep writing keep shooting to make it.

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IFH 712: Directing Al Pacino in an Indie Film with Johnny Martin

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Alex Ferrari 1:51
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:56
My next guest is a filmmaker and stop man. He began his career in 2014 just directing with his debut of the horror film delirium, which is actually coming out the beginning of next year, by the way, which was January 2018. He went on to direct to other films vengeance, A Love Story starring Nicolas Cage and Don Johnson and Hackman, which is the film want to talk about today. A lot about today, starring Al Pacino, Karl Urban and Brittany snow. We also talk a lot about doing stunts because he was in a really cool movie called killer clowns from outer space with guest Johnny Martin and I really appreciate that too. You know, we have a mutual friend and and Mr. Keough. And, you know, is it just me Johnny? Or does Michael Keough know everybody?

Johnny Martin 2:40
Michael Keough not only knows or he knows people he doesn't even know yet.

Dave Bullis 2:47
Yeah, it's always seems like Mike is always knows somebody else. He's always, you know, I see him talking to somebody else, or just, you know, mentioning somebody else. I'm like, Oh, my God, this man must not sleep. He must just, you must just either either call or go to networking parties are just, you know, he has his finger on the button like he has it all working together.

Johnny Martin 3:06
Oh, well, I've known him for a long, long time, probably over 1820 years. And back then, you know, he always talked about directing and doing all these movies. And I just thought, well, he's craft service, really. And I was always told today's craft service is tomorrow's director. And sure enough, this man pulled it off. He's amazing.

Dave Bullis 3:23
Yeah, I mean, he definitely did. And, you know, and speaking about, you know, today's craft services, tomorrow's director, you know, there's a lot of ways to get into the film industry. I mean, you know, everyone I've had on here as unique story. So I wanted to ask Johnny, how did you break into the film industry?

Johnny Martin 3:38
Well, it's such a great story. And I'm very proud of it. And basically, when I was seven years old, I used to go to car washes all the time, because when I grew up, it was like the 70s. And they always had the hot rods coming into the carwash and as a huge cost. And so one day also in his car pulls up with a trailer behind it with a smashed up car. And this guy steps out. I mean, she looked like Burt Reynolds coming out his car. He just was an amazing man. I had to ride ride my bike up to him and ask him, you know what have you know, when I'm in your car and he goes, this is a car. Her name is Eleanor. He goes, Eleanor meet and he asked me my name. And I told him he goes, Yeah, Eleanor's, a star. My movie called gone in 60 seconds. And I'm the director, producer, stuntman, actor, writer. And I'm out there delivering my movies, all the theaters and self distribute this film. And I said, I don't understand it. So he so we sat for like two hours and he explained everything to me. At the end of the conversation. I said, I want to do what you do. And he says, Well, look, if you go home and study and train, you can come see me when you're 18 and I will help you out. So sure enough, that day I went home and I started training, I started learning how to be a stuntman and an act I took acting classes and when I turned 18 And sure enough, I got in that car went to LA call my mom and tell her I was I was there and she said Honey I got bad news for you he colicky he died today doing movie Gone in 60 seconds part too. And so I went there, I was left alone, not knowing what to do. So I worked my butt off. And 10 years later, I got asked to suck, coordinate, and design all the actions for an upcoming Jerry Bruckheimer movie, we're starting to get out of that part of it my life and started only direct and produced. And I said, Well, what's the name of the movie? And they said, was gone in 60 seconds. And so it was just this amazing turnaround was like he was still taking care of me. And I ended up winning the award for Best coordination of the year. So it was really a thrill.

Dave Bullis 5:31
Yeah, that's absolutely amazing. It's absolutely amazing Johnny, where you got to actually be part of the movie that you started with? And yeah, that's amazing. And so, I mean, you did a lot of different stunts. And I looked at your IMDB. And I there's one movie Johnny, I have to ask about and you did stunts for killer clowns from outer space. Oh, my

Johnny Martin 5:52
God. You don't understand. I did a Titanic. I've done the matrices. I've done the terminators. I've done tons of YouTube. But the number one question everyone asked me. You were in killer clowns. It's so funny. That little cult movie was one of my first films that I acted. And it's done. And I played three of the clowns. And I did everything on that show. And it ended up becoming my most memorable movie. You know, I keep getting gifts from all over and autograph signings for that movie, too. It's just crazy.

Dave Bullis 6:22
You know, one day I was I was at like a big loss. I don't know if big loss is kind of like this big box discount store. And I was there, they had this big these have a movie section. And I found killer clowns there one day, and I said, you know, I remember this movie as a kid. So I take it up to the register, right? And I'm checking out and the girl scanning was, you know, scanning the DVDs and buying and she stops on killer clowns. And she goes, Oh, my God. She was I remember this movie. And she goes, she's telling everyone around us because have you ever seen this movie? She goes, it is freaking awesome. She goes, it's about these clowns are coming from outer space. And they're turning people into these cotton candy cocoons. And everyone now is like getting around her looking at this DVD case of killer clowns. And they're like, Oh my God, dude, is there more copies back there? Oh, my God, there's listening to awesome and it's just, it's just one movie that just came out of nowhere. And I remember seeing as like as a kid growing up. And now I have another copy. You can't see it. Because on a podcast, but I have a copy on my bookshelf.

Johnny Martin 7:24
That's great. Well, I'm in talks with the Chiodo brothers to see if I could produce the part the part two of that. So it's kind of interesting.

Dave Bullis 7:32
And I think like part two would be absolutely awesome. I think movies, especially movies like that, I think now are more prevalent than ever. Because I mean, I know, you know, I'm starting to get the superhero fatigue. And I'm starting to you know what I mean? I and I know, people who work on those movies, and I want to support them. But at the same time, like you know, I am way more interested in seeing like a Coen Brothers movie. You know what I mean? Or something like that, where it's like this, this fun movie, you know, or something even something like you know, something else has come out recently. That just blew me away was three billboards. Have you seen that yet? No, I Oh, yeah. It's fantastic. But I'm sure I'm getting off track. Okay, I love it. But But yeah, it's, you know, that's why I think movies like that, you know, it just it stays in that Zeitgeist because it's such a fun movie. And you mentioned doing stunts for Titanic too. I promised Johnny I was gonna mention that too. Because I saw you did you know I saw Titanic on your IMDB and I I said you know, I'll ask about you know Titanic than that then killer clowns but I so so just uh, you know, as we talked about stunts and everything, you know, there's been like, guys like Jason Statham Hoover has mentioned that you know, stunt guys should get their own category at the Academy Awards because you know, they do a lot of dangerous work they do a lot of different you know, the car flips they break jumping through the glass all that all that stuff you know, all that all that dangerous work, you know, so you know, as a stunt guy yourself, you know, what are your What are your thoughts about stunt stunt guys getting their own category in the Academy Awards?

Johnny Martin 9:08
Well, I agree and disagree with it and the part I agree with is it Yeah, you know, the the number one genre that makes the most money in the film industry is actual movies. So it is it is all of us out there. That least what I was and But the other point of it too is that you know, you have to declare who is a filmmaker and to me to be nominated for Academy Award, you have to be a true filmmaker. And there are a lot of some people that are are not filmmakers. They are just guys it like get hit by cars and like to crash up and wreck things and all that but then there's those great second directors and stuck quarters out there that know how to design amazing action that helps drive not only the story, but the characters as well. I mean, there's nothing better than seeing a great a great action.

Alex Ferrari 9:56
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Johnny Martin 10:05
That helps tell you who this character truly is, and what he's feeling without having to say it. And that's, to me a very rare to see, like The Bourne Identity movies. To me, I'm very impressed by because they, you know, the action is really only 20%. The rest is all the acting of Matt Damon and, and you see what he's reacting to and so believable, where then you jump into Fast and Furious, which I think is, you know, amazing stunt work and all that. But it's and designed very great. But my issue is that it does it. Is there a character in that car? Or is it the car, that's been the hero? And that's, to me the point that if they do do this, they have to make it clear that it should go to a filmmaker, not because someone made 500 million in the box office on a great action.

Dave Bullis 10:51
Yeah, I see what you mean. And go because, you know, sometimes in the in movies like Fast and Furious, you know, the sort of the, the car itself, the muscle cars, the the exotics, they're like the sort of center of attention and a lot of those action set pieces.

Johnny Martin 11:07
Yeah, and that's not what the story is about, not about the car, it's about who's driving the car and where and where they're going.

Dave Bullis 11:13
Yeah, and you know, that'd be funny to actually like, turn into something like Transformers was kind of like the same thing, you know. So as you as you did your career, Johnny, you know, as you got, you know, to do more and more stunts, you started producing. And, you know, again, as we were talking, you know, it's always interesting to see the trajectory of careers. So as you go from stunts to producing, how did you make that, that sort of transition from one to the other?

Johnny Martin 11:39
Well, I mean, the whole reason why I got into science, I happen to be really good at it. So I was fortunate to stay in it for as long as I did, probably longer than I wanted to stay but but I wanted to learn from some of the top directors look better way of getting behind Tony Scott and James Cameron than to get on the set of the statement and stay on for a few weeks and say, just try and sneak on. So that was mainly my main main idea. Then when I started to watch it, I realized how much money is being overspent when people are just trying to spend money. When you look at Studio movies, you look at it, where they're spending $100 million, well, really only 50 million got put in the movie. The rest are executive charges, studio charges, and all that. So movies aren't really 100 million. I'm like, Well, why can't you make? You know, and I started seeing the decline of video, and blockbusters and all that. And I'm like, Well, where is the recoupment gonna come from. But we have to start making movies for less. And sure enough that started happening. And so when I started studying that I wanted to produce, I knew that I knew how to shoot action. I knew how to do it quickly. And that was the most expensive part of making action movies is the action. So I went to Millennium Films, Avi Lerner and I told him, Well, how much do you do your sci fi movies for? And he says 1.8 million. I said, and you shoot it where he goes in Bulgaria. I said, Well, what if I tell you I could choose one of your sci fi movies and same style, same way for 300,000. And I'll shoot it in LA, so it's impossible. And so I had my actors Casper Van Dien and Michael Rooker Kala, Bobby and say, I think he could do it, I really believe in Him. And sure enough, we pulled it off for 310,000. And movies became sci fi film of the year. And then I did another one. And I said, Can I have the 1.5? And he said, No, I'll give you 700 Because he wanted to test me. And sure enough, I did that one for seminar, and that became sci fi movie there the following year. And then it started giving me more and more films to produce after that. So it's more or less knowing. And I through my career, I've always wanted to learn every department, I thought, learning from this man, HBO Lickey that I met, when I was seven years old. The key to becoming a great filmmaker is to learn everyone's job, I learned how to do special effects, I learned how to do visual effects. I learned every single career when I when I had a day off, I'd go spend it with some some of my buddies that did another career than I did. And I try to learn it's like some ultimate filmmaker. And that's where I thought producing would be very, very good for me. And it's paid off very well for me. As far as my career, I got to be the first company to travel to China, and to CO CO produce a movie with China Film Group about five years ago in 2013, called Urban games. And I got to show them how you could pull off a movie where they thought they need 18 million. I did it for seven and a half one. So it worked out really well. They wanted me to stay there and I just couldn't stay in China. I want to come back home and do some real movies.

Dave Bullis 14:26
If you did stay in China just just sort of play like a what if game Johnny, if you did stay in China, do you think that they would have just been coming up to you with like, you know, project after project and just saying Hey, Johnny, could you you know, produce this film and produce this film in Beijing and then go to, to to like, you know, to such want to do this film?

Johnny Martin 14:45
Yeah, I was asked to go to Canada. You know, in my movie, we went to Seoul, Korea and debate Beijing and the problem I had with it. It's similar to TV in China, where the producer isn't the film Aker, it's really the director. And in TV, it's the the writer who is the producer. And so it became something where I'm a creative producer. And I'm not the kind of producer that just needs to push up numbers around and get things done at certain price, I want to be a part of the filmmaking experience and to help scenes get better. And when I went to China, it was more that I had these ideas, but the director got to override me were in my films here as a producer, I got to say what I wanted and felt that you needed to shoot this no matter what, and I got it done. And so that's why I really didn't want to stay in China for very much longer. Because I didn't want to just be a guy that did the numbers. I wasn't that I was built to make movies not to just help create movies by money.

Dave Bullis 15:41
Yeah, and I think that's very virtuous of you, Johnny, because you realize wanna stay true to yourself, you know, you don't want to just sit there and, you know, you want to make your own movies, you want to make other people's movies. Exactly. So, by the way, you know, I don't know if you do you know, Peter Marshall?

Johnny Martin 16:02
Name sounds familiar.

Dave Bullis 16:03
He's like a, he does a lot of first ad work. He's worked a lot with John Woo. But he actually was in China for a while doing different movies and stuff like that. But yeah, I just I just wanted to ask if you knew him and just in case you to ever cross cross paths.

Johnny Martin 16:19
It very well might be that do know, because I've done a few job where movies, so

Dave Bullis 16:23
Yeah, he and he's a real good guy, too. And so, but yeah, if you if you don't, though, if you don't know him, though, Johnny, let me know. And I'll introduce you to.

Johnny Martin 16:30
You got it sounds great.

Dave Bullis 16:32
So so so as you sort of, you know, gotten better at producing, you know, you're able to sort of, you know, do different things with money. You know, was your was your budget sort of rising incrementally? Or did you ever find yourself Johnny? Like, somebody would say, oh, no, Johnny, we're only gonna give you, you know, 500,000 or a million. And then when you make the and when you went to make that your second, third and fourth, they were they, you know, they just kept it at that same point, where was like Johnny willing gonna give you 50 million or 500,000? Or a million? Or do they allow you to? Or did you were able to get it to go up incrementally?

Johnny Martin 17:05
Well, I after I do those two, two sci fi movies, that's when an obvious way to do it third, and I said, No, I want to step up to a budget where I could actually make a film that I believe in not just having to put it together and do whatever I could for the money. So immediately there, I jumped up to the five to $7 million range. And I did three or four, Cuba Gooding Jr, movies that he started, it was just right when Wesley Snipes went to jail, and Cuba was right there to fill in for the next grade action hero where I was hoping to try to get these dramas and rewrite them into, you know, action pieces, but not action movies where, you know, it helps to book so I'm a real big fan of Cuba Gooding, and I just wanted to see him just raise his career up by not being sold out as an action stock, but being an action quality actor. And so that's what I started doing. I found a niche in that spot. And that's where I realized that if you have like to point one to 2.5 below line, that's where most movies today are being made. Everyone gets caught up in numbers. And they think that you know, I got $11 million budget, I guarantee that $11 million budget still has a below the line to make the movie around 2.1 to 2.9. You know, just because it fluctuates. I've done movies for seven millions and 9 million to 12 to 13 million. And yet the below the line is still around 3 million or less. That doesn't change because you know, you know, today's movies, because there is no payoff in in VOD as blockbuster I mean, excuse me, Netflix isn't buying as much as, as we thought they would. And China stopped buying all together. You know, it really makes it hard for anyone to recoup. So I was lucky that I found that niche because right when I started really getting further and further into it, that's when I realized that all the movies have to make that unless they're sequels, or they're a Marvel comic, you know, all the rest of the movies are still being done at this level. And the problem is a lot of the studio guys don't know how to do movies at this price. You know, they don't know about sales. That's what Avi learned taught me. You know, what each country buys films for what every actor is worth and how much you have to make movie his goal all along was always make a movie. For what you can pre sell this movie lower by a million dollars. And then you can make that movie for that and know that you always have a million dollars. And no matter what the movie is, you have as a great producer yet to figure out how to do that movie for the money that's going to make the company money. So that's what I learned. And so now basically, I'm still doing the same I mean, my movies 11 million, but yet still below the lines are still under three.

Dave Bullis 19:38
And that's a great bit of voice. By the way, Johnny, I really liked that. That advice because, you know, just how it ties in, as well. You know, just with with just this podcast, you know, I've had filmmakers on who've done their first movie their second movies or third movies, and some of them have made a comedy as their first movie.

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Dave Bullis 20:06
And one of the things that we talked about on here, they said, David, when wherever we go to like foreign sales agents, or we go to do VOD, or to any of these, like aggregators, like, you know, you know, there's, there's tons of them out there, but they got any of them. They always say, well, who's in it? And they go, Well, you know, it's nobody, when they say, we can't really saw a comedy as your first movie with a lot of unknown actors, and expect it to get a wide release. So they always said, you know, go out and make a horror movie instead. What do you think about that advice? So just to make a horror movie as your first movie?

Johnny Martin 20:42
Well, I think the advice that that person said is even worse than what we all thought today. And then nowadays, you know, 80% of movies that are being made are being made by independent not studio studios, just by our movies, throw their name on it. And now everyone thinks I gotta Lionsgate movies like no, I did it through Patriot pitchers. And then they just bought it at the end for 2.7 or 2.8. But now it looks like it was a Lionsgate movie. So knowing that, yeah, I mean, we can't even sell movies. And since we're in the independent world, we're not fortunate to do movies. Without cast, I mean, that we can't even sell it and get our domestic out of it. So we have to have a cast. So if you try to make a movie without an actor, and you think you got gold, well guess what's probably gonna end up sitting on a shelf, or it's gonna be sold to a distributor that that will prove that you never made a dime when he made all the money. So you should never ever try to get horror movies. It's very tricky. It's like a good example is what happened to me is that I need to show everyone I could direct everyone knew I could produce everything. I could do action, direct action, but they didn't know if I could direct a film with actors. So I went ahead and wrote a movie about my friends that I grew up with that we used to go to the scary house when we were kids. And we had this, you know, hell gang. And we I created the story around it. And I shot at the original house that we used to sneak in at night. And I made it sound foolish because down footage was dead while I started getting the news from everyone, that sound footage was going to die sooner or later. So I had to rush and get this movie into editing and, and post and clean it up and get it ready. And by time that I was ready to sell it. I missed the window by about a month. Everyone said, bounce, which is too many people did it because it's cheap to do. So you know what we're done with it. So now they're done with it. So what am I going to do with this movie now? Well, I went back, I rewrote it, and I borrowed it another 50,000. And I changed it into a mix of sound footage and real footage of a real film. And now that movies done very well for me, as very, like I did it with kid actors from Disney Channel, and all that where, you know, you could get them at scale. And at least they're there. They're not known names, but at least they have a resume that you can at least put on a poster. And that's what I suggest you doing, you know, if worst comes to worse, and you can't afford an actor or can't get an actor, you know, always turn to a TV star, because at least they got some kind of clout to them.

Dave Bullis 22:59
Yeah, and with with TV being so prevalent nowadays, you know, there's a lot more to TV stars out there. Because, you know, on Netflix alone, there's like, what 300 shows? The episodic shows now? What, you know, yeah, there's, there's a lot of, you know, Amazon, and you have your cable package, and then you have Netflix and and all the other channels. You know, there's a lot of episodic content up there now.

Johnny Martin 23:19
Yet well, and the problem with all this is 10 years ago, Blockbuster would hold on to your movie forever. I mean, you you could go in there and get a movie from 20 years ago, nowadays, where do you go other than the number one distributor in the world and that's Walmart, Walmart, believe it or not, is the number one destroyer because they hold on your movies for years and years, they put in that $5 bucket. And if you can be thrown in that $5 bucket, you're the luckiest producer in the world, because that's where the money is to be added. Because they can keep it in that book bucket for three years where Netflix is lucky, the whole lot. If you get into Netflix could hold on your movie for only three months. Redbox, you're lucky to be in it for months. So there's nowhere that has a lasting way of selling your movie other than Walmart right now.

Dave Bullis 24:05
And that's a very good point, Johnny, you know, I was uh, one time I was actually at a film producer sort of seminar and they also talked about you know, what the cost of shelf space is. So if you walked into a target at Best Buy a Walmart and you start looking around the movie section, you know, each time the cover is horizontally versus vertically you know what I mean that the cover is facing out towards you and you can see it versus if you just see the spine you know, there's a huge cost difference between those two because it's about shelf space and you know they have that we have what I level of one goes to first they have hey we're talking about all that stuff. And you know you now you know with with blockbuster gone and you know now it's just you know Netflix and you know like you said Walmart you giving him that bin now that bins a whole nother you know, almost like another revenue cycle or another opportunity. You know what I mean? And that's sort of, I know what you mean too, but going into that bin, I've seen tons and tons of movies that I Some friends of mine has made movies and I've seen them in there. And they said, you know, that was actually good because people do actually buy from those from those big barrels of of movies.

Johnny Martin 25:09
Oh, yeah, it really is. I mean, that's, that's really that's the only place that people, you know, our film watchers, the real filmmakers go to that buggy because they want to watch something new and they want something that they can buy three of them instead of going to the theater and having to pay for one movie.

Dave Bullis 25:26
Yeah, and, and yeah, then Joseph died just to sort of just to sort of reminisce, you know, we talked about blockbuster, I remember going there to a lot and I wanted to ask, you know, do you think that the blockbuster in any way, shape or form is going to come back? Like where you could actually just go to a store with with your friends and actually just, you know, actually rent physical movies?

Johnny Martin 25:48
You know, what, I wanted to open up one so bad, but every time I do I do the research. And you know, the problem is, you know, like, my daughter's right now, even though I'm in the business, I'll catch him watching a movie that's in theaters here right now. Because everything's being pirated. Everything's online, everything's free now. I mean, you could really watch anything, you want it anytime for free. So why would you need to go out when you could just download it, or get it online. And that's the problem is, is that, you know, I used to love going to the blockbuster with my kids. And that's going through every movie. And that was fun. And now it's that here, that time is gone. And it's really hurting families. And that's what movies are all about. Movies are all about bringing families together and enjoy an experience a dream, you know, and now it's just a matter of do they have time to watch one and that's where it's, I really miss blockbuster. And I think the film industry is really hurting because it's gone.

Dave Bullis 26:45
Yeah, it's, I know, there's a lot of piracy out there. And I also wonder, too, as we talk about net neutrality, you know, how much that will play into it. Because if you're paying more for your internet, if you're paying more for certain features and packages, you know, going to those those torrent sites is not going to be as readily accessible as it is now as if net neutrality goes away.

Johnny Martin 27:10
Yeah, yep. Well, on the other thing, gotta remember is that you own a block, Buster, you got to buy how many DVDs? Were online, you just need a copy of the movie, and you don't have to make anything anymore. Yeah.

Dave Bullis 27:24
Yeah, but it would be fun, though. It just in a best case scenario, to just own a blockbuster or something. Almost like what Tarantino used to work at, you know, what, it was a video archive?

Johnny Martin 27:36
I totally agree. I think it can still work in certain cities. I really do. Because a lot of people don't want to go on the internet, you know, just finding the right the right town like LA is not the right town. But maybe somewhere in in Spokane, Washington, or Boise, Idaho, Idaho, maybe the perfect spot for that.

Dave Bullis 27:55
You know, there's still a few blockbusters left, and they're all in Alaska.

Johnny Martin 28:01
Really, I believe that See, there you go. People don't want to be hibernating in their house, they want to get out. That's great. Love hearing that.

Dave Bullis 28:09
Yeah. And also, because, you know, the, the internet, they're slow as well, but do it? Yeah. And you know, you're right. I do want to get out. But that, you know, they were able to go out and then you know, go to the blockbuster. And you know, they don't have to stream it or anything, they can just, you know, play away from the blu ray or the DVD. And when I when I did read that, you know, I started saying, You know what it makes sense, you know, show your, you know, I don't know how populated Alaska is and you know, but I know it's it's not that populated. You know what I mean? It's you know, when you think of Alaska, you think of igloos and polar bears.

Johnny Martin 28:41
Yeah, absolutely.

Dave Bullis 28:44
So your journey, as we talked about, you know, getting back to this, I'm sorry, now, I started get off topic again. But as we, as we go back to talking about, you know, your career and you and producing and everything, and you said you had to prove that you had direct. And I think that's very, very critical. Because I think that's, that happens to a lot of people. You know, I think that's, that's one of those, you know, it's unique to everybody, but it's also universal at the same time, because people want to see what you're capable of, they want to see what you can do. So So you made the horror movie delirium. And, you know, what, what was your experience, you know, just just getting that made, in terms of, hey, this is the movie where I'm going to show everybody what I can do.

Johnny Martin 29:23
Well, the thing is that, you know, going back to old subject is that, you know, people don't want to be your first try. They just won't do it. And no matter what script you have, you know, that's their career on the line. So that's why you have to be able to show and prove yourself. And that's what's tricky is it you know, unless you have you know, everyone doesn't look at your movie, as $100,000 movie or $200 movie, they look at it as as a movie. So you can't tell someone Well, this was only this. That's why I did this. They don't care. They only care. Did you make a quality movie, not caring about your budget or anything else? So now you're competing against that.

Alex Ferrari 29:59
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Johnny Martin 30:08
Which really makes it hard. So when I did my movie, the background that I had was the most important learning every one's job. Because once I did that, that allowed me to have a six man crew. That's all I shot my movie with. I didn't have any more than that I knew what I needed to do. I prepped it, PrEP is the most important thing where today's movies, they don't give you prepping where they give you four weeks to do a great movie, it needs to be prepped so great. And having every backstop every way I have a problem happens and ready to make change anytime. I don't think I've ever shot a script that we shot to the script itself. There's always a moment where you think, oh my god, what if I did this, and you have to be prepared for that. And you have to have a great team behind you. Remember, when you're directing your number one thing that you should be doing at that moment is finding the right DP for you. Because you're not just making the movie his eyes behind that thing. And he needs to move that camera. No director ever says okay, no, move that camera here there. And that's great. But you got to find moments through the dialogue that gets you to that other character to not cause this delay of a cameras before a hard cut. And that's why it's so important to hire as a finding that perfect soulmate that you could find in a DP that you guys think like imagine to like, and you guys could pick the shot perfectly. And know that he you have, he has free range to do whatever he wants to do to find that as well. It's a partnership. And that's what everyone wants to say, Well, I did this movie with I mean, every movie I've done, I've done with my DPS. I have to DPS I trust wholeheartedly. And I don't want to do a movie without them. Because we'd know each other we know what we both like. And so I would suggest that to everyone and product, know what your product is, I mean know what is going to sell for the next four years don't don't like sound foolish for me when I made the film, which I did the worst mistake because I created something that was hot at the moment. I didn't look into the future. And that's what you need to do. If I could do a found footage, imagine how many other films are gonna be sound footage. So what can I do? What can I do to be different because that $200,000, the only thing is going to make you stand out is if you have something that's different and new and fresh. And so that's what you really have to consider just don't go out shooting mood to show that you have you know how to direct because no one's going to the only time someone's gonna tell you that you're a great director is when they love your movie. Not love your shots. Love your movie.

Dave Bullis 32:32
Yeah, and that's a good point, Johnny, you know, and it's always about that, the whole experience, right? And you mentioned building a team. So you know, just about finding the right director cinematography, so you know how to work together, I couldn't agree more. I've been a part of film sets like that. I've seen film sets like that, where, you know, they want to hire somebody because they got a nice camera, or they want to hire somebody because they can talk the talk. But you know, when it comes time to when it becomes crunch time. It all sort of falls away. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, and you know, and also, we talked about just standing out from the pack, I think that is, you know, obviously it's more important than ever, you know, because right now, it's a war of eyeballs and ears, right? You know, it's a war of, you know, how can I get my movie seen and by making it you know, as unique as possible, not sounding like something is someone's already has already seen with you, as we talked about found footage. That's why I think proud of my activity really found that niche, even like The Blair Witch Project, as well, The Blair Witch Project, they really were able to capitalize on the fact that the internet was so new, it was in an infancy stages. And, you know, everyone really believed in it. And the marketing was brilliant behind that, because it made it seem like it was a real mystery that and this movie was going to be you know, you're watching a documentary, you know, and then with paranormal activity, it was a, you know, I think they did something similar, but they were able to just capitalize on this, and he made it free, even cheaper than the boiler, which was we, I think, or made it for what 13,000. So it's like, you know, standing out, you know, just finding that niche and standing out is sort of key. And I think, you know, to do that, rather than just, you know, reverse engineer it, I think that the way to do that is, you know, find what movies you like, and write a script that you'd like to see and go from there. And then sort of use your what resources you have, and then see how you can get it to sort of fit in that context. So you're not looking going out and going well, I need to you know, go out and rent a yacht to blow up or something like that, you know, it's stuff you have you it's stuff that you have access to, that you can use to make your movie.

Johnny Martin 34:34
Well, and the most important thing is like when I say find find something new and fresh. You have to be willing to get ready to change your whole thought pattern of that because it could fall on you could fall on your face by but by doing that just as fast as you get successful. And by what I mean by that is that when I made my movie, I knew I had to be different so I wanted to make standby me meats a horror movie. I wanted five characters now made These guys hang out with each other for for three months, I filmed them for three months, just hanging out until I knew they were best friends and wanting to hang out with each other. That's when I made the movie. And that's how I knew it was gonna get that stand by me moment, it was more about character. And so I made this movie, it was head scares in it and had these great moments. And when I made it, I turned around and people you know what, when they got that title horror on there, and you're not delivering, or my idea was great, and it looked great, it won some some festivals. But at the end of the day, when people buy it, they said, Johnny, we don't know how to categorize this movie, we don't really know how to sell it, because it's not really a horror, and it is. So we don't know what to do with it. So that's when I had to go back not only to change it out of sound footage, but I had to put more scares in it and cut out a lot of the dramatic parts, where I built these characters. So a lot of stuff I truly believed in, I had to change because at the end of the day, it's not about what I think is perfect. It's what you know, the audience and what the buyers and distribution companies thinks it's good.

Dave Bullis 35:58
Yeah. And and, you know, again, as we talked about sort of selling, it's sort of like, you know, exactly what is everyone looking for? What is everyone buying? How do I get people to buy this movie? And, you know, as we, as we talked about your your second film that, you know, in the past couple of months, because again, in the pre interview, we were talking about how the past couple of months have been actually, you know, really good for you. You know, not now delirium is coming out soon, which is the movie we're just talking about. And now you have a second film that's coming out Avengers a love story with Nicolas Cage. So how did you go about, you know, getting that film? Johnny, did you put that together? Or was that something that was sort of pitched to you?

Johnny Martin 36:34
Well, no, it was a great movie, they, Patric pitchers asked me to produce it with Nick Cage, who I've been friends with for 20 years. And I met him during God and 16. We did a lot of movies after that together. And so I was producing it, the director, I didn't believe and I didn't think he could pull it off for what I had. So I basically had to fire him. And Nick wanted to direct the movie himself. And I said, Great. So since medium had this great collaboration together, you know, he was so busy with his schedule, and I would, you know, he called me up, he goes, Hey, can you start the shot list? A, you know, show me the locations I'll pick, and all this stuff. So we're working hand in hand, and then, you know, when when when the budgets start getting tighter and tighter and tighter, you know, I had to cut days out of movie and I told him I, you know, you have just moving 21 days. And he said, that's gonna be very hard for me to do plus my schedule. Johnny, I don't know if I could pull it off. Why don't Why don't you do it? And so everyone agree. There's the producers. And everyone said, Yeah, John, Donnie should do it. He knows the movie The best. Then DGA stepped in and said, Nope, Johnny can't do it. Because he's a producer on the film. And by Directors Guild rules. You can't take over a movie for a director if you're the producer. So we didn't have a director. We were supposed to start shooting in 48 hours and eight hours before we started shooting the DJ, my producer, my financier, God, his attorneys after the DGA. And they finally agreed that I could direct the movie. So I didn't have that much warning that this was my movies. And it was about rape. And it was a sensitive story. And it was very hard. So I just worked every every night. And every day I was off to prep this movie, you know, for every day. And it was a really hard, hard movie. But I'm very proud of it. And Nick is very, very proud of it. And I think we pulled off something special.

Dave Bullis 38:20
So when you mentioned prepping even on your days off, Johnny, was that more like you were in your producers hat like you're thinking to yourself, Okay, well, is this location really locked? You know, what could go wrong? What else am I going to need? Was it stuff like that?

Johnny Martin 38:33
No, I already you know, I do that. I mean, like when I direct like when I grew up, my last week hanging out, everyone else might hear my deal in my head is I'll go produce it for the first two weeks, and I'll get everything handled with unions everything else. And and didn't make all the deals, but then I shut off from my producer at take that off, and I go dry it into direct. And when I did this on vengeance, it was about seeing seeing the scenes, I usually have this weird thing that people make fun of me for but I could see things I could see scenes. In my head go around me I could see cars pass by my body when I'm just standing there looking. So I like to close down a street and fit in the middle of the street and and look at it and find the scene. And when I see that then I could really picture where all my cameras could go and all that. And that's why again saying a great DP can visualize your story because as I talk out loud, he's seeing what I'm seeing now too. So I had to make this movie it was next movie and I had tried to find out how to make it mine where I could believe it. You know, shooting a rape scene is very sensitive, and it's very hard to shoot rape scene because people get so disturbed by it that that your movie could be ruined by a bad rape scene by making it too much. And so my rape scene this movie a little girls watching her mom getting raped and I thought the way I could do this and make it violent, that need to be violent because we needed to know why these guys should get what they get by the end of this movie.

Alex Ferrari 40:01
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Johnny Martin 40:10
That I said, what better than to show a rape scene through the eyes of this girl and what her visual is and what her pain is that she's feeling, and very show very little of the rape itself. And that's was different than next version of it. And that's where I brought mine. So that's what I do during prep, to try to prepare what I feel the movie should look like.

Dave Bullis 40:32
Yeah, and I think that's a good point, too. Because, you know, there are movies that have very violent, very violent rape scenes, you know, like I spent on your grave, irreversible Straw Dogs, just to name a few. And you know, and again, you were mentioning, you know, doing things a little bit differently. And I think the way the you did it, it definitely sounds like, you know, obviously, you're taking a very touchy subject very, you know, hard subject. But it's a different way to sort of show this narrative rather than obviously, that the graphic rape like I was just in three movies I just mentioned.

Johnny Martin 41:06
Right! Absolutely. You're right.

Dave Bullis 41:08
So so as you know, and you mentioned, your your third movie, by the way, and I, this is actually the movie that got us talking to Mr. Keigh was, is hanging man. Again, I saw the poster and I said, Wow, that looks awesome. And again, Michael, you know, just introduced us out of sheer luck or law of attraction, whatever you want to call it. But, you know, as we talked about hanging man, I wanted to ask you, what is it like? Well, I wanted to actually, I want to ask what it was like working with Al Pacino. But I also want to ask you, though, to Johnny, you know, how did you go about with this movie and getting this made? With hanging man? Did you know Was this another project that you were able to get made by yourself? Or was this pitch to you?

Johnny Martin 41:50
Well, after I did the vengeance, a love story, hanging man was in the company, a patriot. And so they had a director already attached to it. And when Michael of the financier saw the movie vengeance, he said, I want you to do hanged man. And so I had to talk my way into RL Rifkin, who was the other producer, and he didn't really want me because he already had his director. So it was a struggle. And Michael said, Well, I'm not going to finance it unless Johnny directs it. And he goes, well, well, well, it's not our decision. It's a it's out. It's Alba chinos. So out here Alba Chino, you know, didn't want to set the meeting. He said, Well, let me see what he did before. And he watched my the Benyus, the love story. He stopped after the rape scene and called and said, I'd like to meet him, because he was blown away by how I treated the rape scene. And he didn't watch the rest of the movie, which was funny, he just wanted to see something that really caught his eye. And so the scariest day of my life is knowing I'm gonna go meet the number one filmmaker of all time and the iconic Alba Chino, you know, how can I top this? And how am I going to talk this man who's worked with Scorsese, and Salman and Coppola, and let him think that I'm as good as them, you know. And there's one thing I have, and that's passion. I don't care about the money, I don't care about anything else, but to try to make a film that is emotionally that gets people emotionally involved. And that's what I am almost here. My favorite movies are like miracle and rocky and all those movies, not, you know, great action movies. And so going in there, I guess I gave out a pitch that he just said, Your energy is so big and you believe in it's so much your words. And before we knew it, we were doing lines opposite of each other. And and he would do he was when I say this, and I come back with a line right after that. And, and he would come back to me and we started an improv thing. And before I know it has gone there every day, and we were doing improv and finally he'd call me at two in the morning, go, okay, this person with two lines, Johnny, the carpets in the police actually caught number two, and he was yeah, he was where were they born? I go Minnesota. He was from a single families and know their family is still married, but they're having problems, as it was what we thought of what the characters would be. So when we got to the set, he was able to focus differently on each character, knowing what they went through in their lives, even if it was a one line character. And that's what really made this movie so amazing is because it just became so real. And to work with Al Pacino. Probably any drug any director in the world should be as lucky to have the moment that I had with this man who's probably the most incredible actor and human being I've ever met.

Dave Bullis 44:38
Yeah, I mean, I just want to get that's one of the questions I want to ask about working with Al Pacino was, you know, I mean, obviously there had to be some kind of almost like intimidation because you know, Al Pacino has been in so many freaking movies that have just, you know, skyrocketed like, you know, Serpico and and, you know, which where he played a detective also. And I mean, that's what I was going to ask is, you know, if ever if he ever or just, you know, not not like coming with an ego, but just the fact that, you know, hey, look, it's Al Pacino. I mean, this man has just made so many awesome movies. And it's like, you know, how do you direct somebody like that has worked for Scorsese and stuff like that, you know, it's just like, well, you know, you know what I mean? So, so that's good, Johnny, I'm glad that, you know, you were able to sort of find that, that core and again, you know, you're passionate, you know, what you're doing? And, you know, so I want to ask you to, as you're sort of going back and forth, forth with him. And he asked you to where was this character born? You know, that's just you add, let me I mean, what would have happened just as a whatever, if you would have said, our I don't know.

Johnny Martin 45:40
Well, the thing is that I prepared myself so well, that I, I knew everything that I need, I read that script 18 times before I met without, and I was involved with everyone I knew where they were in the scene. I already picture the set every pitcher, who they were, how they carry their shoulders, how they walked, and everything else. So I mean, great part about hanging man is that every role drove the story. So it was easy to know, what emotions these people felt. It's like the in my opening scene when we find the first thing. You know, everyone say, well, Johnny, this girl's so weak, you know, why isn't she supposed to be a cop? I said, yeah, she's a beat cop work and two in the morning shift. And, and you know, and she works a schoolyard. And so, to me that that character needed to be a little bit weaker. So my lead character, Rooney could come into this movie, and be strong and not be compared to another cop. And so it was stuff like that, that made me realize that when I met out that I really thought this stuff out. And I already pretty much knew I didn't know the backstory so much, which I learned a lot. But I pictured this girl was wounded somehow, and she was weak. And so what would that lead to? And that led to what her family likes would be. And so al brought it more out in me as well. You know, but we did a lot of rewrites from it from from the prep, it was an everyday meeting everyday talk by prep the movie, so it was really quite interesting. And he wouldn't allow stuff that he felt that the audience would stop it, it's very bad. He said in the editing room with me price seven days, didn't say a word just hung out with me to watch see how we were doing this. And you know, at the end of the movie, I told him out, I know, you thought we made seven. But it's a character piece about for for people struggling with their lives to find out how they can help each other. And that's what the movie kind of is, again, I'm all about relationships and movies, and I know that everyone's gonna go see it probably is gonna go into Oh, my God, this is another seven because that's what the trailer looks like. And it is it's like a seven. But it's more about having a relationship with with these actors. More than the normal seven kind of movie.

Dave Bullis 47:43
Yeah, and, you know, I have the I haven't seen the movie yet. But I actually, I actually ordered it on Vudu. And it's out early on night right now. So I'm actually gonna watch it Not tonight. But tomorrow. So I can't wait. And I saw it was up there. And I said, Oh, I said, I actually ordered it. I was like, You know what, I'm gonna have Johnny on the podcast. And I thought it was gonna watch it, but I didn't. But I made sure to order it. And by the way, everyone, I'm going to link to that in the show notes hanging man on Vudu, it's actually out before it's in theaters are the same time it's in theaters yet? And which I think by the way, Johnny, I think that's a really good idea for a lot of films in general. Because it sort of gives you, you know, so a different form of access, you know, in case you know, the movie isn't playing around you, or if you know, there's not a theory like around you. I've always said this is a really good idea that I you know, I mean, as we talked again, about VOD, and everything else, I always think it's a good idea for a lot of films to do that. Is it to come out either at the same time. It's in theaters, or even surely then after you know what I mean.

Johnny Martin 48:49
Right, exactly. I totally agree with you.

Dave Bullis 48:53
And so Johnny, you know, as we, as we sort of, you know, have been talking for about 45 minutes, you know, is there anything in closing that you want to talk about Johnny or anything that we get a chance to discuss?

Johnny Martin 49:05
You know, half the reason why I do these, these interviews at all as because, again, I cared about movies. And the worst thing about this, this business is failure, and how low it can really bring you and how easy it is to quit this business. And there's so many people that are more passionate about films than probably anything in this world. And I just have to tell everyone is that you know, knowledge is everything. And the key thing you got to be as the smartest guy in the room learn more than the guy that you're meeting and learn everything you can about him him as well. I mean, no have the knowledge of knowing his work and how it compares to your work. But people you know, the ego gets really big in this industry, and that is what destroys people unfortunately.

Alex Ferrari 49:52
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Johnny Martin 50:01
So I just sent say, knowledge is everything and learn as much as you can before you are ready to go out there, you get one chance at this. Don't Don't blow it just because you get that opportunity to be ready for your opportunity.

Dave Bullis 50:14
You know, Johnny, that is that is absolutely great advice. You know, always be ready and always learn as much as you possibly can. And Johnny, we will find you out online.

Johnny Martin 50:25
Well, themartinifilm.net themartinifilms.net that is, I have a website that explains my story and my whole career from stunts to acting to producing. I'm going to start the opening up seminars of how to raise money in and help people in Georgia, all my crew members and all that they want to become better filmmakers and even more filmmakers. So I'm going to start putting on seminars, how to go about putting together films and all that hopefully, I'll have that recorded. And I do have an upcoming movie with our friend Michael Key Hill, which I gotta tell you I'm very very proud of and I cannot wait to get started on this thing in the movies called judge not I think that is more like the seven that that everyone wants to see. It's really dark and gritty. And that's kind of like my genre that I want to go with like David David flinch. pincher did.

Dave Bullis 51:17
That's really, really cool. And you're Mr. Keyhole together. That's, that's gonna be interesting. Because, you know, again, because Kiko knows everybody and, you know, yeah. I'm very excited. Yeah. And you're genuinely when you are doing those seminars, let me know. And I will add them to the show notes as well update them. You know, everybody, everything that Johnny and I talked about on the show, in this episode will be on the show notes at Dave bullas.com. Twitter, it's at Dave underscore Bullis. Johnny Martin, I want to say thank you so much for coming on.

Johnny Martin 51:52
Thank you very much, Dave. Very nice meeting you all!

LINKS

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IFH 711: The Movie Script Selling Game with Kathie Fong Yoneda

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Alex Ferrari 0:48
I'd like to welcome the show Kathie Fong Yoneda How are you Kathie?

Kathie Fong Yoneda 3:00
I'm fine. Thank you, how are you?

Alex Ferrari 3:01
I'm doing good as good as we can be in this crazy upside down world that we live in. But thank you for being on the show. I wanted to bring you on because I loved your book, the script selling game. And it is I think a part of the screenwriting conversation with screenwriters, it's not talked about enough, I try to yell about it, at the top of my lungs, from the from the mountain to you. And just you need to understand the business side you have to understand how the game is played. You need to it's not all about plot and characters. And that it is all about that. But it also is about the Business Like Show Business. There's two of them. You have to connect. So I wanted to bring you on the show and kind of dig into that. But before we get started, how did you get into the business?

Kathie Fong Yoneda 3:48
Um, it's the only thing I owe to my ex husband. My ex husband worked for famous director Stanley Kramer, and I was just doing secretarial work. And he was telling me Well, if you can do secretarial work, work at the studios, they at least have a union you get paid a little bit more. So I applied at Universal Studios. And surprisingly, I got in. And it's kind of an interesting fact is that this is many, many years ago. I mean, we're talking about the 1960s. I've been in the industry for a long time. And what happened is that about I got put into the what they call the secretarial pool. And I was I was just doing my work and one of the gals in the secretarial pool came up to me and she said, You know, my friend was supposed to get that job. And I said, What What do you mean? She said, the only reason you got it is because you're Asian. And I thought well that's that's kind of a crazy thing for her to say but I just looked at her and I just said Well, I don't know. All I know is I got the job. I went down to The, you know, to do the personnel office and I asked the gal I said, Well, you know, what is this all about? You know, and she said, Well, it's true, we were looking for it, specifically, somebody who was of another ethnicity, because the industry is liable to get sued by the motion by the, by the United States government, because we had less than one 10th of 1% of our workforce is, is, you know, minority. So everything else is white. And so it was a big wake up call for that industry. And she said, but, you know, you still, we didn't hire you just because of that, we hired you, because you were the best candidate, you actually typed faster, you gave a great, you know, little, you know, talk about who you are, and, and, and sort of what you what you were interested in, and that's why we hired you. And so I kind of just worked my way up the ranks in the secretarial pool, and eventually started working in the industrial, excuse me, the Executive Office over at Warner Brothers. And that's where I met the man who became my mentor. His name was Richard Shepard. And I don't know, I don't know if a lot of people might not know him. But they, he was a producer. He was a top studio exec, he helped to form, I believe it was creative management associates, which used to be a very famous agency. He went off on, on location for one of his films, and I was lifting them at the office. And so all these scripts kept coming in. And I was getting bored. So I started reading them. And when it came back, he, you know, started to read picked up one of the scripts started to read it and said, Oh, you don't need to read that one. Because, well, why not? And I said, it's not very good. And so he picked up another one, I said, you know, that one's even worse. You don't need to read it. And they looked at me and he said, how many of these Did you read? And I said, all of them, there were probably about 40 scripts. It was pretty boring when he was. So he said, Do me a favor. He said, Could you just do a, you know, a few lines telling me what it's about. And, and then do a paragraph on why you liked or didn't like it. So I started doing that. And I found that it was just like, doing book reports in a way remotely, they had two scripts. So that's how I got started. And he, he said, you know, you are really good at this, you're very, you're able to sort of get the essence of the story. And you must watch a lot of movies because you're able to determine whether or not works. And so if he was my mentor, and what he started to do was involve me in some of his productions. So I became a production secretary. And I actually was the first Asian female, not only at Universal, but at Fox now. I was the first what they call production secretary to ever get a credit. And it was the credit was on Robin. Han. Wow. And then then my boss moved over to become president over at MGM before it eventually disintegrated. But while I was while I was going over there, he said, Well, you know, the good thing is, guess what? You get to have your own secretary, you'll be the number one secretary. I said, Well, I'm not so sure about that. And he said, What do you mean? And so I did my first deal. I wanted to do as I said, Well, I'm happy to to go over to MGM with you. And and I'll be, I'll set up the office, and I'll hire somebody to do you know, to be the secretary. But after a couple of months after she's gotten used to everything, I would like to have the opportunity to spend 30 days in the story department as a story analyst. Because in those days, in order to become a member of that Guild, you had to work for 30 straight days. And then you had to go through I guess it's sort of I don't know

Alex Ferrari 9:31
a qualifications or something like that.

Kathie Fong Yoneda 9:34
Yes, series of qualification, things you had to do. And so I did it and I was one of the few that actually got it got in right away. On the on the first thing I didn't have to take it, take it over and over again. So I became a member of the story analysts guild and that's how I moved around from studio to.

Alex Ferrari 9:53
So let me ask you, how many scripts Have you read in your career?

Kathie Fong Yoneda 10:01
You know, I really should have counted a month when I started. I didn't, I didn't really think about counting them, but

Alex Ferrari 10:07
10s of 1000s? Yeah.

Kathie Fong Yoneda 10:11
I would say cut, you know, because Listen, I've been reading scripts since about 1973.

Alex Ferrari 10:20
So, and I,

Kathie Fong Yoneda 10:21
yeah, so and I still was reading them. But when I became an executive over at Disney, and so and i was i was a VP over at Island pictures, and I was still writing scripts and as part of my job. And I still reading scripts now, because I'm helping a lot of the new writers out there to sort of get started. So I'm a consultant.

Alex Ferrari 10:43
So what should writers do in the development process that can give their story a fighting chance?

Kathie Fong Yoneda 10:51
Well, I think I should say something like, you could read my book, that would be

Alex Ferrari 10:57
what we're always gonna say, we're gonna begin every answer to every question, you should read my book. That being said, What else? Could you say?

Kathie Fong Yoneda 11:07
Oh, you know, it. First of all, if there, if you are a writer yourself, think about the scripts, the movies that really touched you that are in that genre that you're doing. And get a hold of that script, you can usually go the scripts.com and a couple of other places that you can get, you know, get a piece of scripts, and look at more movies in that arena, and see what were the scenes the key scenes that were able to give you a good sense of the characters, their motivation? What is it that made that movie, work? All those other things that you need to work on to make sure that your movie in that particular genre has all of those different qualities to it? I really, I mean, I love working with writers, especially the newbie writers, because they have a there's still something about them where there's that originality. Mm hmm. And I think they haven't been beaten up exposed, too much been exposed too much to some of the realities that we face in, in the industry, it does become rather tough. I mean, though, when you when you become a paid screenwriter, yes, you you will do a lot of writing and everything. But you also have a lot of other disappointments. And there's always knowing that there are other writers out there that are before you and behind you. It's just, it's one of those things, and moods change and genres change and what's popular, you've got to kind of keep up with that. But what's nice now is that they're streaming. And there's web series. And there's a lots of other ways that I think writers can actually express themselves. I used to be on the board of the LA web this many years ago, I think it was starting back in 2009 or so. And it was just amazing, because the idea of taking something and winnowing it down to just watching three or four minutes of it. And having people come back the next week to watch the next chapter, the next chapter, the next chapter. It just, it gave me such a wonderful way of saying of being able to tell other writers start off small, if you're unsure, start off small and and go big. Probably one of the best success stories is, you know, there were there were a couple of people who had wonderful web series, which eventually, you know, turned into while people started looking at those web series and realize that these people had a lot of talent and they were hired. So that that's one of the things that happened. And I think web series is another way of doing it is especially if you want to break into television, and get used to being able to tell things succinctly. And you really have to develop those characters right away. And so I always tell people, when you if you have a television series idea, start off small start by by doing something like a web series.

Alex Ferrari 14:26
And I mean, the world is changing so rapidly. And I mean, just for me, I could only imagine since 1973 how the world has changed in the film industry, how movies have changed, everything is changed so dramatically. There is more than ever need for content because there's so many outlets out right now. And there's so many streaming services and and features in a lot of ways are not leading the pack anymore. It's more scripted television. And and that's where a lot of these these initial invoices are going and that's, to be honest, was where a lot of the money's made. I mean, unless you're at the upper echelon in the studio system, you're doing Marvel movies or tentpole movies, and that's a different conversation. But generally speaking television is where a writer can actually start making a living, even even even a low budget streaming series, you'll be able to make some money as a writer, which, if you're making any money as a writer, you're winning.

Kathie Fong Yoneda 15:28
Oh, yes.

Alex Ferrari 15:31
But the one thing I, again, when I said at the beginning of the show is a lot of screenwriters just don't even think about the politics. The the business side, what can screenwriters do to prepare themselves better? For the business of screenwriting, we know that it's kind of like film, school, film school beat you up about the process of making a movie, but they don't teach you how to sell the movie, they don't teach you how to get a job in the industry. They don't teach you how to make any money. All they do is teach you the art. And the same thing goes with screenwriting A lot of times, you know, there's 1000 books out there about and 1000 courses about how to write a screenplay, very few about the business side of like how to actually make a living, how to sell your script, what can they do to better prepare themselves for the business side?

Kathie Fong Yoneda 16:19
Well, I think that what's difficult for a lot of writers is they would rather just have the words on paper, do the talking for them. Learning how to pitch is really one of the more difficult things to get people to do. And it's being able to sort of boil down the the heart of your story, to let people know what what your project is all about. And sometimes, you know, people are so used to being able to say, well, and this this scene, this happens, and then this is sort of like, they start telling you the whole story, but they're not selling it, it's just it's just like to, to whoever's listening to it, it's just a lot of words, you need to be able to very succinctly tell your story. And so pitching is one of those things that I found, it just is one of those things, you got to develop that as one of your talents, it can't be just handing somebody, your script or your book, you have to be able to pitch it. And in doing that, you can put in your own personality. And I think that's important. Because a lot of it is when you're talking with somebody, they may have a wonderful story that they're pitching to you. But if they don't have the same kind of if they don't have a kind of personality that you feel you can work with, that can sometimes blow the deal. Mm hmm. So this is where it's also this is, um, you have to pitch to everybody. You know that it, whether it's a studio exec, somebody in production, even if it's somebody you happen to meet at a party, who works in the industry, and they ask you, what do you do? Oh, well, I wrote a screenplay. Oh, tell me what it's about. Now, the other thing that's helpful is if you belong to a writers group, and there's so many online writers groups nowadays, and they're places like stage 32, and a couple of other places that a lot of people are very much aware of those kinds of groups are very, very helpful, you can find people who are going through the same thing you're doing. And that's what I like about this business now, before it used to be so competitive that nobody would tell anybody anything, because they were afraid somebody else would get ahead. Nowadays, people seem to be willing to help one another. And in doing so, I've noticed that this I do a lot of retreats. So I have to work with a lot of writers in large group and the idea of working that way working together or working side by side with somebody and seeing what they're doing, how they're developing your their material and they can see how you're developing your material. And you guys are able to exchange ideas and give some advice to one another. It builds up a friendship Not only that, but if one person makes it they're gonna you know if they hear about Oh, there's another job up and we need somebody else on staff they're gonna they're their friends are gonna probably be the next one they're going to be getting that phone call or email saying hey, guess what, we need somebody else on staff so those kinds of things that you know i mean, i i they used to have more conferences now. There's a lot more online ones now. And I think that helps the small group online once it kind of what's going on now because they used to have the ones where you would go to a hotel instead or something and you would have And I used to be a member of a lot of those, I taught a lot of them but it. And it was great because you know, you were able to sometimes meet agents and producers and all that. But you were doing it with hundreds of other people this way, at least online, you could start making your own contacts more directly. So I do think that, you know, joining some of those groups is really a step forward.

Alex Ferrari 20:32
Can you can you please tell the audience how important it is to build relationships in this business that this business is so relationship based, I've said it on the show a bunch of times, and I will continue to say it, because I want to hammer it into them that if you don't like you could be the next Sorkin mixed with Tarantino's love child, I mean, you can be next best writer ever. And if you don't understand how to get to somebody, or at least build relationships to get to open those doors, you're going to be standing on the sidelines because I've even read. I mean, I haven't read nearly as many scripts as you but even I've read scripts that I'm like, how is this not produced? This is an Oscar winning story. This is well written by a really big writer, and it's not getting produced. So these guys who have credits who have relationships, who have amazing content, can't get their stuff done. What is the chance of a newbie writer having it so that at least back the chips, relationships different? You agree?

Kathie Fong Yoneda 21:38
Well, I actually think now is actually a very good time for those of us who maybe don't have as many credits, or who are just getting into the business. Because there are a lot of companies that will no longer exist after this COVID experience. Oh, yeah. And so there's a lot of people then who are now branching off with people they've worked with, to form smaller production companies or smaller entities. And, you know, that includes even agencies, there's still a lot, there's a lot of stuff going on, you know, with there is the Writers Guild, but then remember, they, they did try to get rid of the Writers Guild. And that didn't work. And I think that people are realizing who your real friends are, and who you can really work with and talk to, during this pandemic. And I think that's what's going to help people to form some of the relationships that they need. It's interesting, and you know, a lot of the people form things through film school. And I can't stress enough that even if you are not in college, or a film program, at a university or something, talk to some of your friends, do you know, do you have a friend that knows someone who's, who does camera work, or somebody else who don't look at other people outside of writers, because the more information that you have, about the process of getting a movie or a television series made, really can help you with your writing. And with your relationship building, I

Alex Ferrari 23:27
do recommend that writers team up with directors and producers at a small level to create a web series, let's say that's low budgets, so they can have something produced that they can have actors acting their lines, and, and it kind of might set them apart a little bit, when going into one of these pitch meetings are like, Oh, yeah, I've produced, my scripts have been produced four or five times on the series, you could just go to Amazon, or you can watch it again, better yet on Netflix, if you can get it to that point. But even on Amazon or some other place, they it kind of sets you apart a little bit and kind of puts the power a little bit more in the writers hands, as opposed to just always looking for someone to give them the opportunity to open that door for them.

Kathie Fong Yoneda 24:10
Well, I you know, to me, it shows, it also shows that you as an individual, are not afraid to get out there, that you're so passionate about your work that you're willing to put yourself on the line. We cannot work. I don't think any of us can. If we just stand there and hold our hands out and expect somebody to shake it and say yes, we are I'm you. You've got to prove that. And when they know that you've done this, if you've you've paired up with some other people that that you are familiar with, and that you guys get along and you do things well together, like in a web series. It really I think gives whoever you're talking to a better stronger sense of who you are and that you have the passion to move ahead. And that it does, you're not going to let anything stop you, you certainly don't mind, you know, working with other people. And that's, that's the main thing is, you know, a lot of people have have made the mistake of thinking that okay, you know, I've got this job. And that's it. And I and I now have, you know, I've got something on my resume here. And they don't fail to keep up with their relationships with some of the people that they may have been working with. This happens a lot with movies and television. The important thing is, if you are in a writers room, like you are on most television series, you you form relationships very quickly, you're in that room, sometimes for 12 to 15 hours a day, for five, six days in a row. Oh, yeah. And you have, you have to prove that you're a team player. And you're, you know, personalities always have to come out because you can't always hold back on something. If you believe in something, I mean, your personality comes through. And if you work with people who have similar personalities, or similar points of view, when they move that they get in, you know, say one of their scripts is bought for a television series, you better believe they're going to think about Oh, yeah, all these writers that I've worked with, that I got along with, they're going to hire those people. So having building those kind of relationships are very, you know, key. And starting off on a smaller level with web series is a perfect way to go.

Alex Ferrari 26:35
Now, when you get into a room, let's say you finally get into this room that we keep hearing about, and you're in the you're in the room with this mogul, producer, Agent manager, what do you do in a pitch meeting? What are some pieces, some tips that you can give a writer to be in a pitch meeting?

Kathie Fong Yoneda 26:54
First of all, do your homework. So in other words, whoever you're meeting, find out a little bit more about them. You don't have to do a whole bio or something on it. But you know, just see if there's something you know, find out what their what they've done in the past, what helped them to get where they are now. Maybe maybe, you know, a producer might have might have been a creative exec at an agency or you know, at a studio, or maybe someone might have even been reader or story analyst somewhere, usually can find out, you know, you go online, and if you Google that person's name, their stuff bound to come up about what their background is like? Not, you know, plus, you can go to, you know, what is it? Some of the other websites, there's so many of them now, you know, out there, but go to some of those websites and check them out and see what was their background? You could have something in common like that you could have gone to the same college, even though it was 10 years apart when they graduated. Or it could be that, that maybe they have sometimes you find out things like oh, yeah, and so and so is in this club, you know, so maybe it's a literary club, or maybe it's flying airplanes club or whatever. I mean, they have funny things that people will put in there about who who people are and what do they do. And if you know someone else in the industry, who happens to know them a little bit more or have worked with them before, it doesn't hurt to just say Oh, so and so. told me to say hi to you, I told them I kind of immediately they told me to say hi, that goes a long way. For know, who's my someone, so don't be afraid to just talk to your writers group, which is something you know, to whoever it is that you kind of hang out with. And you say, you know, I've got a meeting with Mr. X. And do you know anybody who knows them or whatever. And just to find out if they know a little bit more about it? There's, there's, you have to have a certain amount of sincerity about things so to authenticity, right? Yes. I've been in meetings where people have, you can tell when they're trying too hard. And they're not being well, they're not really kind of sincere

Alex Ferrari 29:17
about what there's, there's I like to call it the stench of desperation. It's like a it's a perfume that, that that you wear. I wore it for many years, where if anybody that came on set that even had a remote amount of power, you would just rush over to the mango. You'd be you'd be like that grip on set with the screenplay in his back pocket like hey, you know when you get a chance to do you mind reading, like it was just this kind of like, energy sucking thing like what can you do for me? What can How can you help me as opposed to the opposite, which was what I discovered later in my career is how can I be of service to you How can I help you and and that's a much more authentic way to become to get a really build a relationship. And then you start working together. But you got to start by offering what you can do as opposed to sucking. Would you agree?

Kathie Fong Yoneda 30:08
I'll agree, very much agree. The other thing too, is, you know, nowadays, a lot of colleges now do have film school as part of their curriculum. And that's, that's one of the things that if you can, even if it's just taking two or three classes, and maybe not doing it, exactly a major in it, but if you can, if you can, that's great. But if you're, you know, if your dad's paying for your college degree, and he wants you to get it in something like Applied Science or

Alex Ferrari 30:40
accounting. Sure,

Kathie Fong Yoneda 30:42
yeah, you could still you could still take a few screenwriting classes, because if you graduated from that particular school, and had taken some of those things, it's very easy to sort of find out a lot about the other people out there, whether they're agents, execs, producers, actors even. And by the way, actors nowadays, they're getting a lot smarter. They're forming their own production company

Alex Ferrari 31:11
as they should, as they as they should they should develop projects themselves. Oh, yeah, absolutely. This whole concept of and I think writers are start are going to start getting to that place. I don't know if they're there yet. But there are some that are doing it, where you as the creator, in today's world, the old studio system, where the there's a gate and there's gatekeepers, if you want to play at the very high end, again, tentpoles, Marvel studio, Disney, these big giant corporations, you got to play that game. But you can still build something outside where those people or those outlets or many other outlets like Netflix, for God's sakes, or Hulu, or these other companies will come looking for you if you build something out. So that's why actors, and I think with writers can team up with production people and team up with actors. That's when it starts getting really interesting, as opposed to always waiting for the gatekeeper to open the gate and give you, you know, crumbs to get in there something like that. It's just a lot of people trying to get in. And that's what I my personal journey was, I was trying to get into the party for the longest time. I snuck in a couple times. But the bouncers took me out later on. So I always tried to get into that hollywood party till I finally decided to make my own party and started creating my own company and started developing my own projects. And then magically, they start knocking on my door and asking me what I'm doing. And I was like, Oh, so this is how you do it. Okay, I get it. And then that the stench, that desperation stench started to go away?

Kathie Fong Yoneda 32:49
Well, I mean, you're self reliant,

Alex Ferrari 32:51
you have to be

Kathie Fong Yoneda 32:52
like to invest, people are self reliant.

Alex Ferrari 32:56
And that's something they don't teach you in school, they don't under that's like something that one little comment is so powerful, because you're saying, if you are self reliant, if you show that you can do it on your own, if you show that you can build even at a small level, a web series, that you were able to produce a web series that has a good story, decent production value, which in today's world, you could absolutely get for 10s of 1000s of dollars, because I've done it, and I've seen other filmmakers do it. That shows a lot as opposed to one of the 10th How many times did you walk in a room during your career and just saw piles of scripts from the floor to the ceiling, just sitting there that either you had to read or someone else was reading? And you guys were just going through it? And am I exaggerating? Or is it I've seen the pictures?

Kathie Fong Yoneda 33:43
Its course nowadays it's it's digital, you know, they get online, which is just as bad because I actually think, and I've actually talked to a lot of people who are in the industry and they say they actually kind of prefer having something you can put in your hand. Yeah. Oh, instead of reading it off the computer, which you know, after about two hours of that it kind of gets them gets weary on the eyes and sometimes you kind of forget everything. But you know so much of this industry is I understand it's about who you know, but it's also who you can be and who you are. You've got to have some I mean I always tell this funny story you know the guy who was who's on that television show which always which is escaping my mind right now but Randall the one that the one that does the thing about the Asians brand Oh,

Alex Ferrari 34:42
I'm Fresh Off the Boat.

Kathie Fong Yoneda 34:45
Yeah, Fresh Off the Boat. Yeah, okay, cuz it's been off the air now for what two seasons but yeah, what he did. You probably have heard the story too, is that he was actually with a bunch of others friends. They wanted to kind of, you know, get into the industry as writers, directors and actors in office. So they started a web series. And you probably already know

Alex Ferrari 35:12
this story will ever be, but a lot of people don't know. So please go ahead.

Kathie Fong Yoneda 35:17
So, IKEA is this Swedish company that has furniture, and they've got all those different floors of furniture and everything in it. And Randall and his friends wanted to do a little short film, which back in those days, it would just call a short film what isn't called a web series, but that's what it was, it ended up being that they would have to shoot certain scenes here, there. But they would usually webseries usually only have one or two scenes in them anyway, for each episode, because it's hard to find scenery that you can actually use. So if they didn't, they all were kind of like a couple of them, in fact, I think were roommates. And so they were sharing a single apartment. And so they didn't have much to work with. So they lived in Burbank, some of them lived in Burbank, and they went over to the IKEA and started filming some things at the IKEA store. First it would be in the kitchen, then it would be in the living room area. Area. And finally, the Night Manager actually the one who the one who was there from about three o'clock in the afternoon until close to 10 kind of noticed all of this thing, what's going on, they are just taking pictures of the furniture, these guys are actually getting to know taking movies. So we asked them what they were doing. And they explained, look, we're really sorry about this. It's just that we, you know, he explained, we're trying to do a series so we can show people and he says, you're going to do a TV series here. And he goes, Well, no, we're putting it on the internet. And the guy was actually kind of intrigued, interested. He just thought, oh, oh, okay, that's well, he says, you know, well, actually, you know what the best time to come there after 730 because most people's gone home, they either passed by year on the way to work or during lunch, but after about 730 or so it thins out so come on over. He actually let them do it. Now he he's no longer working there. So don't think you could still do this because I don't want people I don't want the IKEA manager to calling me and saying what the heck did you What did you What did you tell people

Alex Ferrari 37:22
this there's there's there's filmmakers everywhere trying to shoot now and I can't Well, not right now anyway because of COVID. But when it does come back out?

Kathie Fong Yoneda 37:30
Well, Brenda Randall was an unknown at the time. And Randy

Alex Ferrari 37:34
Randall Park Fifth Amendment, Randall park the actor Yeah, right. Yeah. And he's gone on to be big. He's huge.

Kathie Fong Yoneda 37:42
And it's one of those stories. And it's the same thing. There's that that gal Jane, who the, the Hispanic gal, who in her first series, she she started off doing three web series. And one of the casting people was hooked on web series and noticed her and that's what he did is he called her in. And she you know, she was she's very famous and got her own. She not only had her own television series, but she now then ended up I think she's now producing a film.

Alex Ferrari 38:21
Yeah, you're talking about Gina Rodriguez from Jane The Virgin. Well, funny enough. I actually funny enough, I actually worked on I think her first feature as a, I was I was the post production guy, editor, colorist person on her first film, and she was a supporting cast member. And she was she stole the show. And I was like, wow, this girl's got something. And then like, you know, a year or two later, she's like, Oh, look, she's got her own TV show now. Okay, she's exploded. Okay. That's how it works here in Hollywood. Yeah, oh, she's an Emmy winner. Yeah. Okay, so this is this is how that works. Okay, great. It's, it's funny, you know, being here in LA, is

Kathie Fong Yoneda 39:02
this group of friends saying, you know what, we got to do some to show that we are serious about being in this industry.

Alex Ferrari 39:10
Yeah, and and it's so important. You're absolutely right, it's so important to just kind of go out there and do it. And, you know, like, like the IKEA story. Sometimes you gotta not break the rules, but just you live in the gray area, you live in the gray area a bit and you got to do what you got to do. And as long as you're not doing anything illegal, just go for it and try to make it happen for yourself. But that says a lot more to me as a producer, as a filmmaker, about somebody that they've actually gone on produce something on their own that has some quality to it, then 1000 scripts, you know, you know, in a lot of times, I don't know if you agree with this or not, but a lot of times, it's the best stuff doesn't always get produced. It's not always the the cream rises to the top. I'm sure you've read a ton of scripts that never have been produced, that were Oscar worthy, or should have me worthy series that just didn't get produced for whatever politics, you know, money falling apart all that kind of stuff. It's a lot of times who hustles the hardest, and who gets, who proves it to the right people and the politics involved Is that a fair statement?

Kathie Fong Yoneda 40:20
It's it's not a good statement, but it is a first agree with you.

Alex Ferrari 40:24
It's not a good statement, but it's a fair statement.

Kathie Fong Yoneda 40:28
But it's but you know, what it's sort of like that no matter what industry you go in, you have people that, that know other people, and they get up there right away. And then you have people who who are struggling, and even though they may be very talented, they just haven't, they just haven't found their voice and, and, and their community to be able to help move them ahead. And I think what's great is now with the internet, we're finding a lot more of these people. I do know that that one of those things about the internet is people are very easy to talk to over on online, much more so than if you meet somebody in person for some reason. Maybe it's because they think that people judge you, you know, by how you look or, or what your first appearances or something. But once you start talking to people online, you get a real sense of someone's personality. And I just I have so many of my writers who have told me that they have met the most interesting people who are now people they are working with, on projects, whether it's a director, an actor or whatever, they are actually starting to work together and move ahead on on projects, because they found people that they can work with. And sometimes, you know, back in the olden days, you had to work with whoever was shoved your way, whether that person was someone that had a good personality, or had a good sense of humor, or whatever, something you know, you just had to work with whoever they told you to work with. It's still a little true today. But I find that I see groups of people, especially behind the scenes, people that like to move together to another project.

Alex Ferrari 42:18
Oh, God, yeah, I mean, Clint Eastwood, Ron Howard, Steven Spielberg, they've been working with the same team for decades. Because once you get people you can work with, you want to stay with them. Because and

Kathie Fong Yoneda 42:29
all those people started off together.

Alex Ferrari 42:32
And it's and the funny thing is, too, one thing that just people don't understand, especially when they're coming in the industry is it is difficult to find people you can work with, like, really connect with really have a second hand with. And when you find these people, you don't want to let them go, you want to want to hold on to them. And if you have the power to do so. Especially like those guys, you can bring them along and build out like I mean, I know I think Ron Howard won't do a movie without his first ad. Like he just waits until he's available. And then he does a movie with him. He just won't do it without one without him. And same thing for DPS and art directors and production designers and all that kind of stuff. It's, it's something that screenwriters need to understand this, well, if you can build that group together. Like you said earlier, if they get a job, and they need to fill another seat or two in that, in that writers room, you're getting the first call, it's about that relationship much more so than Oh, at least I know I can hang with this person. He's talented talent is like that. That's the that's the bare minimum. Like, we understand you're talented, you have to be talented, then there's a lot of talented people. Now the next criteria is, Can I sit in a room with you for 12 hours and not kill you? That's so much more valuable than having a super talented person, I would rather have someone who's a little less talented. And I can actually work with then a super talented person who is impossible to work with.

Kathie Fong Yoneda 43:57
Now I have a very dear friend who who's a writer and has been a writer for a long time. And, and she's told me she said, You know you She said she would she would rather rely on somebody on her writings on a writing staff. Because they, they know so much more about who she is and how she can react at any given time to any different situation. I mean, sometimes you're you're asked, okay, guess what, we're not going to do that that script that you guys put together, we're gonna instead you got to come up with a new one in the next 24 hours. I mean, when you can work with a group of people who are willing to step up to the plate and in and, you know, get things done. That means so much more. It's it's kind of people that really, you know, make her feel that she's got her worth and that she's got their back. You know, if you can do that, it really helps.

Alex Ferrari 44:56
Now, what are some of the common reasons scripts are rejected? In Hollywood, I'm sure there's 1000 reasons, but what are some of the common ones that you're just like, oh, cheese, please Why?

Kathie Fong Yoneda 45:10
Um, it usually has to do with the characters. More of I mean, it's, you know, story too, but you can see, some of the some stories are actually, you know, sort of things that we have seen before. But it's the characters that make it, set it apart a little bit. And I think that's what people you know, sometimes they say, Oh, I wrote this, I wrote this romantic comedy. And I'll ask, well, what's it like, and they'll say, Oh, it's like, you know, I don't know, whatever, you know, any Audrey Hepburn or something like that. And then I'll look at it and oh, my God, it's almost like they're copying scene for scene, except that it's not set in Rome, it's set in someplace else, you've got to be still have that spark of creativity, to set it apart from everything else that we are reading of the average executive, and the average agent probably reads, Oh, I'd say 2030 scripts a week minimum. If they fit, if they finish, all of it

Alex Ferrari 46:13
generally isn't a true list, like you got five, five pages, five to 10 pages tops,

Kathie Fong Yoneda 46:19
you're lucky if you have an agent that actually will read 10 or 20 pages, occasionally, they you know, they will do that. It's just, it's really a hard business. And there is just so much coming in the doors. I've been in this industry for so long. And I just remembered I was talking to somebody who just retired as an agent. And he basically said that, you know, on an average day, at our agency, we would probably get something like 70 scripts. Some of them were well, and a lot of them came from friends of friends. And some of them came from from, you know, clients they already have, or from clients that are looking have that have had an agent that are looking for a new agent. Yeah, that's that's how many every single week and they all have to read it and everything. It's just,

Alex Ferrari 47:09
and the funny thing is that what you just said, though, they're all referred scripts, these aren't cold scripts that just come in from, you know, Joe Blow in the middle of the street somewhere. These are just these are, these are actual things that they have to read, because they're either coming in, they're referred for a friend of a friend or something like that, then add that the 1000s a day, from unknown screenwriters who are trying to break in, if they even could get through the door.

Kathie Fong Yoneda 47:37
Yeah, it's, you know, it's, it's a difficult thing, this industry, you know, but the relationships that if you, especially if he's gone to film school, or at least taken three or four film classes, those relationships are what I think really can help you because you guys have that common sense, you have that common background and fun Foundation, and you guys know each other, you know, whether you can work together or not. And that's just so vitally important. You know, there are a lot of agents out there who told me, you know, when I asked, oh, how'd you get into this and get into this agency? Oh, well, so and so. And I used to, I used to go to USC together or something like that. And so it was sort of like it was it was more like, because there was somebody they already knew. And, or they're doing favors for somebody. That's the other thing. And it's not, it's fine, if you want to do favorites. I mean, I've actually had one writer that that told me that she was a nanny for an Actor for his kids. And he actually gave it to his his agent to read he did read part of any read the first 25 pages or so. And then he, he said, Well, I don't have time to read the whole thing. But I do think it's a good start, you know, I don't mind I'll just give it to my agents. So he did. And that's glad to have her script. Read and they did like it enough that they kept her on for a little while, but she now has kids of her own and she's not in the industry.

Alex Ferrari 49:15
So what you're saying is we should become nannies is that's the way in is the nannies. Is that is that what I'm getting from that stores.

Kathie Fong Yoneda 49:22
For her at least that it worked for that I mean, you know, she she actually realized after after a while she was on staff on a television show for a while. And it was it was fine. But then she met her has been and, you know, he just said, You know, I have the kind of job that I have to be on call because he's a doctor. And so he said, You know, we're either going to have to hire a nanny or you're going to have to take care of the kids or whatever. And she was fine. She was at that point. felt comfortable enough that okay, you know, but she is now starting now that her kids are older. She's now thinking about getting back into the business of writing. But then COVID hits so

Alex Ferrari 50:07
slow that that slows down things a little bit. Now I wanted to ask you, because this is a myth that is talked about so often is that and a lot of newbie screenwriters think this, all I need as an agent, all I need is an agent or a manager, and all my dreams are gonna come true, they're going to put me out onto the street. And I'm going to get million dollar offers and things like that. Can you please debunk the whole All I need is an agent thing. And when a writer actually needs an agent, can you answer that for us?

Kathie Fong Yoneda 50:42
There are about 10, or 20, really good screenwriting competitions, where they actually have agents or studio execs or production executives, who are the judges of the finals. And sometimes I've seen that whoever sometimes the person who wins the competition doesn't end up with the agent, it's somebody who was like, maybe in third place, gets the agent. But there, there are at least 10 to 20 really, really good screenwriting competitions out there, that I think people should think about. I think that's one way to kind of also get started. I it really, in fact, I would say, I know that the one that I really liked a lot is the final draft, one, their final draft has their competition. And of course, you know, most people are using Final Draft so that that's a good thing. Because what I like is the people who are the finalists, and they do it for television, and they do it for features, which is nice. They not only get to have a trip to visit as an agency or to visit, you know, introduced to some agents, they also have an opportunity to meet a lot of people in the industry, because they have a big party, where they they're giving out awards and everything for the final draft awards. And I was surprised it's held on the Paramount lot, and I've gone a couple of times. And there were actually actors and production to people, producers, from who work on the lot, who go over there, and there's a big cocktail hour and they you can meet these people. I mean, that to me is you know, it's almost like if you get in, and you're one of the 20 people or so that that become you know, viable for all those awards. They actually you can meet all those people and they will, they're very little talk to you. They're there, their apparel mountain and it's promoted there where Oh, here's so and so you got to meet this person. They have people who are actually moving around their their their creative execs who were helping to get those riders at the competition to meet all of these different people and I have seen I've heard about all these people getting actual agents, or actually getting their script to a production company for a TV show. So things like that can happen. So the competitions are a good way of getting started.

Alex Ferrari 53:19
Now I'm gonna ask you a few questions asked all my guests. What are three screenplays every screenwriter should read

Kathie Fong Yoneda 53:38
my absolute absolute favorite screenplay ever where I read it? And I didn't want to change one word on it. So Day Afternoon,

Alex Ferrari 53:50
yes. Amazing script. It's amazing script.

Kathie Fong Yoneda 53:55
Yeah. Most designs, unfortunately, most of them are dramas.

Alex Ferrari 54:04
It's okay. It doesn't matter like

Kathie Fong Yoneda 54:06
well, another one to that that I absolutely love is network. Yeah, that's

Alex Ferrari 54:11
that's an answer on the show many times.

Kathie Fong Yoneda 54:15
Yeah, no, no, what just it's it really. I think what it is it's because what that guy says screaming is how we've we've all of us have felt like that at some point. We

Alex Ferrari 54:28
I hate to tell you we all feel like that right now. We're going through some stuff right now. It's it's amazing how how accurate that is even to

Kathie Fong Yoneda 54:44
see um, Musical comedies.

Alex Ferrari 55:00
Sure, sure, go ahead.

Kathie Fong Yoneda 55:02
I love I love musicals, too. So I love Grease.

Alex Ferrari 55:09
Grease is fantastic. Even though there are there's their teen hit their high school students who who are 35 years old. Other than that, other than the 35 I mean, literally Stockard Channing is I think 32 in Greece's. So it's, it's pretty, it's, but it's a, it's an amazing film. It's an amazing film. Now, what advice would you give a screenwriter wanting to break into business today? Well, I

Kathie Fong Yoneda 55:42
think it's important if you can to try and figure out who do I know somebody from college? Or who's in the same neighborhood or something that you live in? Are they writers, you know, where can you find another writer. And if you, you know, you can actually even go online, there's a lot, that's what's nice about the internet, there are so many now online writing groups. In fact, I think in another week or two, I'm supposed to be doing a little q&a for this writing group. And it's just, you know, if you can get together with other writers, it gives you a sense of community. And I think when you have a sense of community, you will then realize you are not alone. And back in the 80s, and 90s, and a little bit from the beginning of the 2000s. people tended not to want to do that, because they looked at each other as competitors, right? Instead of instead of as, as people that they can share things with. I think it's gotten a lot better, of course, in the last 1015 years. And so I you know, I would strongly suggest that if you can find a group, even if it's an online one, talk with people there, they oftentimes will have people that are in the industry who, you know, are willing to come in, you know, do a one hour talk on on different aspects of writing. No, I think joining. And the other thing, too, is I would also like to let people know that it's not just for people who are writing screenplays, if you have a novel, because if you have noticed, around Academy Award time, most of the movies, especially for dramas, usually came from a book. Correct. So if you, you know, if you have a literary group, that's also something you know, that you might want to get into, especially if you don't start off with that. A lot of the love of the famous writers, that's what they did, they started off with a book and then they suddenly realized, Okay, wait a minute, here, I can turn this and some of the other books I have into movies. And there's a lot I love it nowadays, because with the internet, they have more places now because everything is streaming.

Alex Ferrari 58:11
Yeah, absolutely. And now and where can people find you, your work and your book?

Kathie Fong Yoneda 58:18
Okay. Here's my book, the scripts, thinking, you can go to M WP Calm, calm. And that's my publishers website. And I believe, I think they're still doing it. They were giving a 25% discount if you bought their books through their website. So you know, you want to check that out of it. See

Alex Ferrari 58:46
what anybody looking for your consulting services?

Kathie Fong Yoneda 58:50
Well, I do consulting, I also I also do some workshops overseas, and I don't know how far your audience goes around the world around the world.

Alex Ferrari 59:06
Yes.

Kathie Fong Yoneda 59:08
Now with a COVID thing, of course, all my everything in this year is the kind of cuckoo but I already have next year lined up I will be in Ischia island of Italy, which is off the coast of Naples.

Alex Ferrari 59:22
Very difficult. tough, tough job. tough job. It's a very tough job. Kathie, very tough.

Kathie Fong Yoneda 59:26
I'll be teaching at a Swedish film school teaching at a school in Estonia, another one in Cologne and another one in Warsaw and another one in Budapest. But also I teach on Roca Bertie, for the recovery retreat, virtual. They have a regular Real Property retreat in France. But there's also a virtual one they have. I will be they usually have it like once a month that I don't know if they're doing it in August or not. But I'm going to be teaching a segment of it in September and just go to birdie retreat calm and click on Roca birdie virtual. It's like a five hour mini retreat. There's four mentors more in different areas. One might be somebody who's a manager, somebody else might be a writer, someone else might be a production person. And someone else might might specialize in books or something. I mean, they have four different people who are the mentors. And it's a limited, I think it's a limited enrollment, I think this may be 30 people on online thing. And there each of us mentors have to give a 20 minute lecture. And then we also have to read a two page synopsis of a fair number of the writers who

Alex Ferrari 1:00:56
I will put, I will put that all in the show, I will put that all in the show notes. Kathy, thank you so much for taking the time out for coming on the show and dropping the knowledge bombs on the tribe today. So I appreciate that so much. Stay safe out there.

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IFH 710: Creating the Cult Classic Sharknado with Thunder Levin

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 1:33
Enjoy today's episode with guest host, Jason Buff.

Jason Buff 1:37
Do you like sharks? Do you like NATO's? Well, my friend, you are in luck today, because today we are talking with thunder Levin, screenwriter of Sharknado and Sharknado. Two, I was wondering if you could talk for just a second about your experience when you first got into Los Angeles and what your expectation was versus what you actually found?

Thunder Levin 2:00
Sure. I got to tell I in late 1986, with my student film in hand, and I was quite prepared to send it to Steven Spielberg and say, Where have you been?

Jason Buff 2:14
We've been waiting for you. Right. That's what usually happens.

Thunder Levin 2:17
And that that did not happen to my great surprise. Although I did get a very nice letter back from his director of development at the time saying we thought it was a very well done student film. And so then I said about the hard slog of trying to make connections. And I guess it took about three or four years of just sort of knocking on doors before I got my first directing job. And then that didn't go very well. I was sort of outmaneuvered politically, I went into it being I guess, very naive and thinking everybody was there to help me realize all this nonsense, and no, everybody was there for for their own causes, or at least especially the producers. And so that did not go very well. And so then it was sort of a case of regrouping, and I started writing more. And it was a long time before, before other things started happening. And I started doing corporate promotional videos for a living, which actually is a fairly good living, if you can make it work. But it wasn't what I wanted to do. And so years went by, and I finally I was in my mid 30s, when I thought, you know, this is ridiculous, we got to make something happen. If nobody's going to hire me to do it, I ought to make my own film, which had always been the plan. It's just, you know, that was a Sunday kind of thing. Someday, if things don't work out, I'll just make my own film, and I'll show them. And then finally, I realize, you know, someday is, was a couple of years ago, I gotta get going, and tried to raise money to make an indie film and did not raise enough. And so that project collapsed. But some of the investors that I'd contacted, you know, who had, who had pledged funds, remembered me a year or so later, when I had another project. And now I seemed like, oh, well, he's done this before, even though we hadn't actually gotten the first film made. So there was there was some recognition factor when I went back to them a year or two later and said, Hey, let's, let's make this film. We can do it for less money than that other one. And, and it's going to be more commercial and all these things. It was just the funding, um, it was it was more of a niche, a niche film, but I don't think that's why it fell apart is a little science fiction film. But I think it fell apart because we were trying to raise close to a million dollars. And I just didn't have the connections to raise that much money. But then the next one we tried to raise money for which was a zombie film was much, much more modestly budgeted. We went in saying we were going to make it for 100 Round, but we would have the option of raising 150. And so we we eventually got to 100 grand. And we said, Okay, we're invoking our option to raise 150. Because we think it'll be a better film that way. And, and we raised 150. So it was much more doable and seemed like it'd be much easier for it to make a profit.

Jason Buff 5:20
So you worked as a producer on, you're talking about mutant vampire zombies from the hood?

Thunder Levin 5:26
And yeah, and so I was one of the I was, I guess, credit was, I'm the executive producer on that. George Saunders was my partner, he was the producer. But I ended up raising about 95% of the money. And so really, it was, it was a nuts and bolts from the beginning to the end, kind of production for me, and I learned a lot doing it. I don't ever want to do it again. I know there are people out there who enjoy putting the deal together and working all that stuff out. That's that's not really the part of the business that intrigues me I like, I like making movies, I like the creative part. I like coming up with a story and figuring out characters and casting and working with crew and cinematographers and sound people and artists, actors, and, you know, seeing it all come to life. Putting together the deal doesn't really doesn't really excite me that way.

Jason Buff 6:22
Can you talk for just a second about how you were able to put together that kind of funding. And I mean, I know it's not the really fun part of filmmaking. But one of the things that I've been trying to focus more on is talking about the non creative aspects and the more business aspects of putting together a film. So can you can you discuss just a little bit about the process of actually putting the film together and raising the funds? And what kind of, you know, things like, did you have to make it an LLC and the legal aspects of it?

Thunder Levin 6:51
Sure. I mean, I guess the first thing for anyone to remember who's going into this is it's a film business, not to film art, not to film craft to business, first and foremost, at least to people who are going to be investing and people are going to be buying films. So you've got to put together a package that makes sense from a business standpoint. So it's not about gee, this is and this be a really cool story, because investors probably aren't going to care about that. Some of them might, but most of them are, most people who are investing money in a project want to make money. So they need to see that, that you have some grasp of the business side of it. So the first thing is to do your research and figure out what movies are selling. What movies are getting made on the low end, and what are selling in the marketplace. And of course, the marketplace is changing in the midst of changing drastically, you know, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, it was all about what can you get on the shelf at Blockbuster? And of course, that's not the case anymore. It's about how do you get attention for a movie that's, that's on VOD, or on iTunes or Amazon or what have you. And the business really is sort of reinventing itself right now. And even the studios are, are scrambling to figure out how all that is going to work and how to make money from it. So it's a it's a weird time to be making an indie film right now. But what we did was to research to put together basically, we put together a business plan. And the things we had to include in that were, how's this film going to make money? What you know, what's the physical process, we're going to form an LLC, a limited liability company, the investors are going to be the limited members. And the producer and I were the general members, which meant that we, the the investors would only have their investment at stake. They couldn't be touched for any losses beyond the money they put in. But they would have no particular say, in running the company. And George and I would run the company. And we our investment would be sweat equity, the effort we put into making the film. And so then we put together this business plan that would that listed movies that we thought were similar to our film, and we did research on okay, what is the low end that these investors can expect to make? So we did some research on similar movies that hadn't done so well, and how much money did they make? How much money did they spend? What's the high end? You know, and of course, at that point, what we were all pointing to as a high end was The Blair Witch Project, been made for like, you know, 60 grand and made $100 million, you know, and of course, you you fill it with caveats, like it's unlikely that the film will will achieve that kind of success and your money is at risk and you could lose everything and you keep saying that over and over again.

Alex Ferrari 9:58
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Thunder Levin 10:09
To protect yourself legally, but at the same time you have to paint a rosy picture or else why would anybody invest in your movie? And what is it about our film, what elements of our film make it likely to succeed? So okay, zombies were hot. So it was a zombie film, we would, we would guarantee that we would get at least one name star in the film, it would be shot in 12 days on $150,000. So the the financial risks are very low compared to the potential rewards, things like that. And basically, we we did some research online, and we talked to other people who had done this before. And there are, you know, business plans out there that you can get a look at. And we synthesized the best elements from a bunch of different business plans that we looked at. And we, we got distribution charts from the Hollywood Reporter, and from one of the Box Office Mojo and a bunch of these other things to show how similar films had performed. We put together a budget, we put together a cast list of the kinds of actors we thought we would be able to get for the money we had, we put together a schedule of how the investors could expect to see things proceed. So okay, once all the money is in, it'll take this long to prepare and cast the film, and this long to shoot it and this long to do post. And from the time it's finished in post until the time it's out on DVD will take about this long. And once it's out on DVD, how long do we expect it to take to recoup its money. And then of course, there was the business side of all the way we structured it was that all funds that came in from sales of the film would go to the investors first. We wouldn't get anything until the investors had recouped 110% of their investment. So that was sort of their protection that we weren't sort of, you know, going to run off with the money or anything. Investors had the rights to, to audit the books, things like that. So we set it up to protect the investors it as much as possible to give them first position. Oh, actually, it was second position after any debts that the film might have incurred?

Jason Buff 12:28
Did you have a distribution model in place at that point?

Thunder Levin 12:30
We did not have a distributor signed, we had a couple of distributors at that point that we had individually worked with before I had experience with before. And so we mentioned them and said that the film will be taken to these distributors and to others. At the time, we felt like we could probably get a better deal on the distribution. And if we didn't pre sign with an investor in retrospect, that was probably a mistake. But we felt that any investor looking at just our script, and our little package with with, you know, filmmakers who were essentially unknown, would not give us a very good deal. But that if we went out and made a really good movie, then we could command a higher price. In retrospect, it probably would have been safer, probably would have been better to take the safer deal and make a deal upfront we we did have a couple of distributors who expressed some interest upfront. And that would have at least guarantee at a certain a certain minimum income.

Jason Buff 13:34
Now, can you talk about what what it feels like as a director to walk onto the set for the first time? I mean, I know you had directed other things, but this was this was probably the biggest thing you would direct it at that point, right?

Thunder Levin 13:46
I'm not sure it was necessarily the biggest. It was the first film where I essentially had creative control. And so that was a big deal for me. And it was certainly the first film that I was solely responsible for from beginning to end. And it was interesting, because in my position, I had been telling people for years and years that I was a great film director, but really had no way to prove it. You know, it was just, you got to take my word for this. I can see it in my head. I know what you know, I know what it's gonna be like, it'll be great. You'll see. And so in a way when things didn't go terribly wrong in the first our shooting, it was it was just sort of a great vindication for me that that shoot actually ended up being probably to this day, the best film set I've ever been on. I spent a lot of time putting the crew together and interviewing people and people were getting paid, you know, crap. I think most people were making 100 bucks a day. But I spent a lot of time interviewing people and making sure we had people who were going to be really excited about doing it. Everybody was essentially moving up a step. or getting their, their, their break, getting into the business at the entry level or, you know, like the cinematographers or people who had not shot features before, but had shot really good shorts, or really good music videos. That was, that was the kind of people we were looking at costume designer had only been an assistant costume designer, things like that. So everybody was looking at this film as a really good opportunity for them, even though they weren't making much money. So we had we had really good spirit on the set, everybody got along really well. There was a great sense of community. And we were all just really working hard to make this thing the best it could be. And so my experience on the set as a director, there's an hour of sheer terror at the beginning of the shoot, where oh, God, do I know what I'm doing is everything going to fall apart have are all the pieces in place versus going to be an utter disaster. And once you get past that, and for me, actually, that that's kind of a daily thing. I mean, I've directed several features now. And every morning, I feel the same way until the first shot is in the cache. And then everything is fine. But that that shoot that it was just a wonderful sense of vindication. It's like finally, I was doing what I was supposed to be, you know, this, this proved not, it was less about proving to other people. And it became a confirmation to me that what I've been saying all these years, was actually right. And that this was what I was meant to do. And that here was a place where I was at home. And I didn't have to kowtow to people who didn't know what the hell they were talking about. And I didn't have to support somebody else's vision. I was doing what I was supposed to do. And it was working. And so that was a that was a very powerful, sort of reaffirmation for me. And then when the shoot went so well, and everybody got along so well. And despite doing it on an utterly insane schedule, everything worked out. It was it was just the most wonderful, wonderful thing. And to this day, I'm very proud of that film. I mean, you know, it's a low budget, zombie horror comedy. And it's, it's silly, and it's, you know, it doesn't look like a million bucks. But I'm really proud of it for for what it was, I think it was a great film. And I will put that up against Shaun of the Dead or zombie land any day. It doesn't it doesn't have it doesn't have quite the production value of zombie land. But I think the characters are just as engaging, if not more. So. I think the story carries you along. Very few people have really seen it. But the comments that we see on on the various internet forums when people actually do watch it, I'd say 95% of them really, really get into it. All the comments, we've had been very positive. So it was a it was a great experience from beginning to end. Except for the fact that it hasn't turned a profit yet.

Jason Buff 18:07
Now as a Spielberg fan, I was it was kind of cool working with see Thomas, how did you ever like talk to him about what it was like working on et or anything like that?

Thunder Levin 18:16
Yeah, yeah, we, we had a few conversations about that he had. Tommy has stories about everything, because he's not only has he been in the business since he was a kid. But his, his father and even his grandfather, I think we're both in the business of stuntman. So he grew up in Hollywood. And, and he has a lot of great stories. And I remember one that he was talking about was that Spielberg had a trailer on the set that was filled with pinball machines and video games. And so So, you know, in between shots, the kids were all in there. And it was basically like their own portable arcade and they just had a blast playing games while the crew was you know, setting up the next shot.

Jason Buff 18:59
Now when you get on a set, who are the people that you're really relying on that you kind of lean on throughout the day?

Thunder Levin 19:06
Right! Well, for me, the main collaborator on a film is the is the cinematographer. To me that's that's the most important working relationship on a film for a director. The other one, of course, is the first the first ad cuz he's the one who really runs the show. A lot of young directors from films coming out of film school or just you know, people who want to want to make movies. They don't realize just the extent to which they are not in charge. The director is especially a good director, if he knows what he's doing. He will allow the first ad to do his job and his job is running the set. And you know, you need to have your vision you need to know what what you're doing and what's coming next.

Alex Ferrari 19:57
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Thunder Levin 20:06
And be able to express that clearly. But the first ad is the one who's really sort of directing the troops. And And if he's good at his job if he or she is good, if the first idea is good at his or her job, it frees up the director to not have to worry about a lot of that stuff. And to focus on working with the cinematographer. And working with the with the actors. And those are the, for me, those are the key relationships, the cinematographer is going to be translating your vision onto the screen. So you have to have a good relationship with your DP. For me the key I've always started working with my DP at the very earliest stage that I can I'd like to have my DP in the room when we're doing storyboards if I'm doing storyboards, in fact, for me, the best situation is if my DP is also an artist, and can do the storyboards himself. So we'll sit in a room and we'll go through the script, and I'll walk out my vision and what I think the shots will be. And I'll describe them to them. And maybe I'll draw stick figures. And then, if the DP can draw, he will do storyboards because I can't draw to save my life. So I'll draw a stick figure of what the shot should be. And then he'll look at her and go, Oh, fuck is that? And I will explain it to him. And he said, Oh, yeah, it'll look like this. And he'll draw it out. Or we'll have a storyboard artist in the room with us, who will draw it out. And then maybe the DP will make a suggestion, well, what if we did it from this slightly different angle, or what if we move the camera here, I like to collaborate with my DP as much as I can. So that, really the way the film looks becomes kind of a shared vision. And that way, when we get on the set, I don't need to explain anything, he knows exactly what it's supposed to look like exactly where the cameras supposed to go exactly where he wants the lights to go. So I don't need to worry about explaining that to him, all we'll need to do is adjust for, you know, those situations where the location, or the set requires that something be changed from what our original plan was, and then we'll figure that out together. And then he can worry about all that. And I can go work with the actors, on their performance and their blocking, and so forth. So for me, the most important relationship is between the director and the DP, then between the director and the ad, that's got to be a working relationship, you're not you're not too concerned about a creative relationship there. But you've got to be able to get along. And he's got to be able to, to understand the way you work. If there's friction between the director and the first ad, things tend not to work very well. And I've experienced both of those where I've had really great relationships with my ad, and not so great relationships. And life is a whole lot better when the director they get along. And then the other kid, the other key relationship on a set. And this was something that maybe surprised me a bit in the early days was the relationship between the director and the star, especially in these low budget films, where you have just one name actor, and that actor has a lot more, a lot more clout on set than then some directors might like, because probably, he's the reason your film got funded. And he's the reason your film is going to get distributed. And he knows that. So having a good relationship with your star, where you're both working towards the same vision is really crucial. Because if you get on if you come in to it with different visions, and he's pushing to get it his way, and you're pushing to get yours, and he has a certain level of control, because you know, you can't physically make him do something, he doesn't want to do that that can become an awkward situation, too. So making sure that you and your star are are on the same wavelength. And that you both see at least his character, the same way can be very helpful. And the star can become a great ally, too. Because on a low budget indie film where you're trying to shoot the film in 10, or 12, or 15, or even 20 days, you really don't have time to do the kind of dramatic work with the actors that you'd like to do. And so your star, if he really understands his role, and you guys are on the same page with it, he can then become a very helpful force for working with the other actors as well. Because what one would expect in an indie film, especially in a B movie, where you tend to be casting someone in the lead, who has probably already had a career and has been doing it for a while, because those are the people who who will sell a low budget movie.

Jason Buff 25:07
Did you ever find yourself maybe over directing or doing things that they didn't really need you to do? Or did you learn?

Thunder Levin 25:13
No, just the opposite or, in fact, is that you can actually do less, because they know what they're doing. And they can also pass along their experience and their their years of wisdom to the less experienced members of the cast, because on a, on a low budget indie film, you're probably going to have a lot of actors who haven't done this as much. And so having a good relationship with your star, he can sort of carry some of that burden for you. And he can, he can talk to some of the actors about what they're doing, and the little, the little techniques of acting that he's picked up in his years of experience that will help them do what you need them to do. You know, and you've, you've got to, you've got to balance that by making sure that everybody in stands that understands that you're in charge, and a good star gets that. And he won't question you publicly, you know, I had a moment, a moment on one of my films, where, you know, now I don't even remember what it was, but it was it was a case of the star sort of questioned something, you know, and I took him aside, and he was a guy who, who, you know, made dozens of films and and had a very successful TV series. And I had to take him aside and say, Look, you know, we can, we can talk about this as much as you want. If you don't like what I'm doing, we can we can work it out together. But you can't question me in front of the rest of the cast and crew. And here's like, you're absolutely right, I apologize for that. And then you were showing me and we had a very good. And here he was, we were literally out in the middle of the jungle, and we did not have a stunt coordinator on that film. And so Adrian Paul kind of took over that role for us. And he would help the other actors with with the physical stuff that they needed to do, thanks to all his experience, you know, on Highlander, mainly, because, you know, he spent several years doing endless fight scenes and stuff. So he was, he was really good at that. And he was able to help the other actors in ways that I probably would not have been able to. And even if I had been able to, I certainly wouldn't have had the time because there's so many things. I've often said that directing a feature film is probably the most all encompassing intense experience that a human being can have short of going to war, there's so many things that you have to keep in your head, so many things going on at any one moment aren't doing what I needed. And I would have had to go back and talk to them. And there would would have cost more time. But actually, my star was was talking to him and was bringing them along. And especially if you're working with if you're doing an action movie, as most of mine have been, and your star is someone who's done a lot of action work before, then he can also be very helpful with the physical stuff. Both see Thomas how on mute and vampire zombies. And also Adrian Paul, who was my star in a Ye, you know, they both had a lot of action experience. And so they would they would help the other actors. Okay, here's how you, here's how you might want to run through the scene. Yeah, we're running through the jungle. Well, how are we going to make sure we don't trip and fall over this, you know, Vine here, there's a lot going on. And it's a funny thing to think about how much time it takes to simply be able to run through a patch of jungle, this is something you don't think about when you're watching an action film. But simply being able to run through the jungle for 100 feet without tripping on something is, it's harder than you might think. And so having somebody with a certain level of experience at that kind of thing, how do I slide down this hillside without falling over and breaking my ankle? That neck can be very helpful, especially when you don't have a huge stunt team. You know, working with everybody on on one of these films, you're you're lucky if you have a stunt coordinator at all, much less a whole stunt team to work with each of your 10 different actors in a scene that are you are responsible for that it can really get overwhelming and you tend to develop tunnel vision to to a certain extent. And I know it happens for me that I am totally focused on the moment we're putting in front of the camera. And if somebody asked me about another moment in the film, I'm like what? Ah, there's there's another moment.

Alex Ferrari 29:55
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Thunder Levin 30:04
And I'll have to, like make a physical conscious effort to to change my focus and think about this other thing that needs to be addressed. Yeah. So on a, we were out in the middle of the jungle in Costa Rica, there's very little film infrastructure that I want there is is based in the capital of San Jose. So the people there San Jose, it's just a city like LA, people there have no more experience working in the jungle than anybody here would. So even our quote unquote local crew was still out of their element. So yeah, Adrian was very, very helpful on that production. And it was it was great working with it.

Jason Buff 30:45
Now, why was the decision made to shoot in Costa Rica? Is that just because the screenplay or was there some sort of financial incentive for for shooting there?

Thunder Levin 30:54
That was actually a weird, a weird situation. That decision was made by the partners at the asylum. And that was an asylum film. And they had shot several films in Belize, which, honestly, is where I expected to shoot the film. But they wanted a different look, because most of their jungle films have been shot in Belize. And so they, they started looking around at different places where we could shoot a jungle film. And we were talking about the Dominican Republic to and we were talking about Puerto Rico. And I was kind of interested in Puerto Rico. Because I had another project and indie project that I'd been developing that I thought we would probably shoot in Puerto Rico, because it needed both jungle and a Spanish colonial city. And so you got both of those in Puerto Rico, plus, they speak English. Plus, it's close to us. Now, there are no import restrictions or anything, because it's part of the US. And it's so close by plan that you could fly equipment and stuff. So Puerto Rico was interesting to me. But it made decided that Puerto Rico was probably going to be too expensive. And I think there were union issues there, too. So they were looking at Dominican Republic, and then Panama got into the mix. And then finally, the decision to shoot in Costa Rica, oddly enough, was made for two reasons. One, was that one of the partners at the asylum, his father, I think, owns a house in Costa Rica. And so somehow that made it better. I guess they just had a connection there. And then they got in touch with a local production company in Costa Rica, who kind of sold them on shooting there. And as it turns out, it might have been a mistake, because it turns out that Costa Rica is not an inexpensive place. And we were there during Prime tourist season. And there was no local crew in the jungle. So even the local the quote, unquote, local crew, we were hiring all had to be transported from San Jose, they all had to be put up in hotels, you know, normally think, well, we're going to hire a local crew, they'll just be living at home, and they'll come to the set every day. But it wasn't like that. So so the expensive shooting in Costa Rica, and everything's very expensive there. It's not, it's not this third world country where you can hire labor for 10 cents an hour or something. What little film production there is there was mostly TV commercials, and an actual Costa Rican television programs. So they were all used to work in sort of a normal day in a studio setting and getting paid decent rates. And we were coming in with this, this crazy low budget film that was going to be shot out in the middle of the jungle, and we wanted people to work for what to them was very little. And so it was it. Costa Rica actually was a wonderful place. But from a production standpoint, it actually kind of worked against us. And it ended up costing a lot more than anybody expected. But it was beautiful.

Jason Buff 34:03
When you're shooting in the jungle, how do you scout out locations? Do you just kind of say, Okay, well, here's a river. And we can shoot it like this. I mean, is there are you shooting it kind of in the same area? Or do you? Do you have like a location manager there that it's dealing with that sort of thing?

Thunder Levin 34:19
Yeah. It's funny. We didn't have an actual location scout, we hired a tour guide, who basically took people just tourists on tours. And we hired him to show us all these places, you know, and so during pre production, he took us around, we needed a waterfall. We needed a river. We needed a dense jungle. We needed an open clearing. So he took us around to a bunch of waterfalls and rivers and things like that, that he knew about. But yeah, we all we had to get it all in one basic area because we couldn't afford time wise or money wise to be traveling all around the country. And we were fortunate we found this A, I guess was a plantation I guess it was a sure it was a coconut plantation, I forget what they were growing there. But it was there was this plantation where part of it was cultivated. And then part of it was just wild jungle. And they happen to have a cave, which we needed, and there was a river on their property. And so we talked to the owners of this, this land. And we were able to end up shooting about 80% of the film on this one plot of land, where we had most of the things we needed. And then that really saved us because before we found that we were going to be moving around constantly. And that would have just cost way too much time getting to new locations each day and setting up all over again. And you know, the producers kept saying, Well, it's a jungle country, just pull over to the side of the road and shoot. And it's like, no, you can't do that. For one thing. At the side of the road, the jungle was so dense that you literally couldn't get into it, you would have had to hack your way in with a machete, you know, you want you want the actors to appear to be running through dense jungle, but it's virtually impossible to get your equipment in and shoot that way. So you need a place with paths and roads, and, and dirt trails and stuff where you can get to places that look like they're in the middle of the jungle, but are actually easily accessible. You know, we're where are 50 people going to sit down and have lunch on their break? And how are you going to run electricity in? And where are you going to lay dolly track and all this stuff. So shooting in dense jungle is pretty tricky. But we were lucky in that we found a lot of beautiful locations very close to each other. But the days where we had to move and go to a different location, like we did for the waterfall. It was it was pretty hairy. And finding all these things because they were they were widely spaced was was tricky too. But it all worked out. Was your

Jason Buff 36:57
DP working with like, big 5k lights and things like that outside? Or did you try to use mostly natural light when you could?

Thunder Levin 37:04
No, it was mostly it was mostly natural light. In fact, one of the interesting things was we have this scene inside the cave that was supposed to be lit by glow stick. Now these chemical light sticks. And at a certain point, we decided to just light it with glow sticks. And we bought the brightest glow sticks you could find and we wrapped a bunch of them together. And we actually shot one scene where they're walking through this dark cave lit entirely by glow sticks with people holding them near their face and stuff. So that was kind of cool. You know, I know we had we had a very minimal lighting kit. And we were really only using it. I mean, you know he'd set up a backlight occasionally. But we were in the jet. And when we were outside in the jungle, we were mostly using available lighting. Because it was a matter of Well, where are you going to run power from? Can we get a generator into this place we were there were there were days were you know, the only way to reach where we were shooting was in a four wheel drive pickup truck, there was no way to get a grip truck there. So transporting a lot of equipment just wouldn't have been practical. So a lot of that film, the vast majority of that film was shot with available light and reflectors. And every once in a while we'd set up a couple of couple of lights here and there. And then inside the cave, where we needed actual light. That was that was one day where we we brought in a generator, and we had to do a real lighting setup. And then there was some stuff that we actually shot in the city. You know, there were there were sets and, and buildings and so forth. And those we had lighting, but that, you know, we weren't in the jungle there. And we were in a controllable situation.

Jason Buff 38:48
Now, can you talk for a second about how you developed a relationship with the asylum and how you first met David lat. And those guys,

Thunder Levin 38:56
That was a very slow process, and it wasn't intentional. I met David lap before the asylum existed basically, I had had a day job that I won't even mention what I was doing. So embarrassing. But while I was there, I made friends with this woman who was a talent manager. And she knew David, I don't really know how she knew David. But she knew David lat they were friends. And so eventually she introduced me to him and we started talking. And nothing came of that this is actually I think one of the most important lessons for somebody coming out to Hollywood to try and get into the business is to just meet as many people as you can, because you never know what's going to turn into a great connection. So I met David lat and and I just knew him he was just somebody I knew and we would talk every once in a while when we were visiting with our mutual friend. I didn't really time with him on my own per se i mean i My girlfriend and I were invited to his wedding

Alex Ferrari 40:00
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Thunder Levin 40:10
You know, and on, audit off over the years we'd be in contact. Maybe we'd go to parties, the same party as occasionally because we had mutual friends. I ended up the friend who introduced us ran a coed softball team, and David's wife played on the team. And I played on the team. So so we were just in contact, on and off for years. And and when the asylum started, I think it was called something else. They were actually doing arthouse films, you know, and I talked to him on occasion about trying to get something going. And and it never really amounted to much. And I guess I was just, oh, that that friend of Donna's, who wants to be a director. Right. And so I don't think he really took me terribly seriously. But then once I made the zombie film, and I could actually show him something, I could say, Here, look at this, I can do what I've been saying I could do. And he looked at it. And there was a movie proving that I could do what I said I could do. And he couldn't sort of ignore that anymore. And by then the asylum had sort of become this low budget film factory where they were churning movies out in large numbers, and they had plans to expand and make even more films. And they had just hired a new director of development to guide that process. When I made the zombie film, and he said, Okay, it's pretty good, I will put you in touch with my director of development. And, you know, when he puts out a call to writers for script ideas, you'll be on the list. And so we went through a few different scenarios where I got an email from the Director of Development saying, hey, we need to, we need some ideas based on this, this concept, you know, and there were a few where I pitched ideas, and nothing ever came of that. And then finally, there was they were going to do a knock off of Fast and Furious Five, I guess. And I was into cars, and street racing, and so forth. And so I pitched them my idea, and they went with it. And it just sort of we develop the relationship from there. And I wrote that first script for them. I wrote that in, in 10 days, because we spent a while talking about the story. And by the time they finally approved what the story was going to be, they called me into the office as they said, Okay, we want you to write this for us. But we need the script in in 12 days. And I was like, I've never written a script in less than two months before. But okay. And what's worse is that it was right before Christmas, for some reason, I always seem to be writing scripts for the asylum right before Christmas. And I had a Christmas party planned. And so I lost a day and a half, two days, chopping and getting ready for this party. So I really had to write that script for 200 miles per hour, in in 10 days. But I did it. And I got it to them. And it was what they needed. And that led to another and another, and eventually to this sort of insane moment where they said, Okay, we want you to write a movie called Sharknado.

Jason Buff 43:29
What's your process? When you begin writing? Do you try to outline everything before you ever start writing? Or do you? I mean, what do you do before you actually start working on the screenplay?

Thunder Levin 43:40
It depends on the situation. Because if I'm writing on assignment for somebody, then I'm going to be having to fulfill their needs. The Asylum has a very specific process, they start with a one sentence logline that they will provide usually, and they'll ask for a one variety of one paragraph pitches that would fulfill this, this concept. And then they'll pick one of those one paragraphs, and I'll say, Okay, now write a one page story with a clear eight act structure. So write a one page story, and then they'll give you notes on that. And once they're happy with the way the one page goes, they'll say, Okay, now write us a three page outline with more detail and break it up into the the 8x. For for TV movie, because most of their stuff, you know, they're hoping they can sell it to sci fi or whatever. So it needs the TV movie structure of 8x. And so then you do this three page outline for them, and then when there'll be notes on that, and then they'll finally approve that, and then you go to script. So that's the way I have to work for that. When I'm doing a spec project. I prefer not to do that. What I generally do On a spec project, is I'll have a basic idea of what the story is going to be. So I'll probably have that one paragraph idea. And then I'll go to, to an outline format, where what I do is I make up a sheet with lines labeled one through 90. And each one of those lines should correspond to a scene on the general assumption that it'll be about one scene per page. So I've got 9090 scenes. And usually, the opening of the film will just be in my head. Because that's the the impetus for the story. And so I'll fill out, you know, the first 12345 10 lines with a one sentence description of what is that scene. And then usually, if you know what your story is, you know what your beginning is, you probably have an idea how you want it to end. So I'll go in and I'll plug in, okay, what's the climax of the film? And that'll be like number 8586 87. And then, okay, what's the turnaround in the middle, and so somewhere in the middle, and this will be less precise where it goes, I'll say, Okay, now this happens, you know, and maybe there'll be a couple of intermediary moments. And so I'll have this one sheet of 90 lines, where there's a bunch filled out at the top, and then a few interspersed in the middle, okay, I know this kind of thing has to happen somewhere in here. And then there'll be more detail towards the end. And on a spec script, I'll just start writing the script then. And usually, as I start writing, more ideas will come to me to fill in those blank lines in the middle. So probably by the time I've finished the script, I've also finished the outline. And I'll be able to move things around. I don't do the index cards, like, like a lot of film schools teach you and I know a lot of writers do.

Jason Buff 46:56
You just let the structure come out.

Thunder Levin 46:58
I liked it. I liked this outline. Because I want the structure in front of me, I want to physically see it all in sort of one gaze one glance. So it's having it fit on one sheet of paper, or sometimes two sheets of paper taped together. I like to be able to see the structure of the film in front of me.

Jason Buff 47:18
Do you have any basis? Did you just kind of feel out the structure? Or do you have like beats that you'd like to hit by specific point? I mean, I hate to say something like save the cat or whatever. But you know, anything like that, that you ever use? If you're in a bind, and you can't really figure out what's going to go somewhere? No,

Thunder Levin 47:37
I've never read says the cat I've never read truly, I've never read any of these screenwriting guys. In fact, it's funny because I've been talking to a film school about possibly teaching a class for them. And I want to teach a directing class, but because of Sharknado, of course, it's to their advantage to have me teach a screenwriting class and, and I keep telling him, I don't know anything about spring, I just sort of do this instinctively. So no, I don't, I don't really do that. I just get an idea. And then I'll get an idea of who the characters are, at least who the main characters are. And then I just sort of watch what they do. And I write it down.

Jason Buff 48:18
Any tricks for characters are like, how do you keep characters consistent and really develop your characters?

Thunder Levin 48:24
I really don't know how to articulate how I do that. It's just, I mean, I just put myself maybe I'll put myself in the head of the lead character, and try and put myself in that place and say, Okay, what would I do if I were this person in this situation? And then for the bad guy, I'll think, Okay, what wouldn't I do? I don't know, I really have never analyzed that. It's, it's a much more organic process for me. I mean, I could tell you how I direct a film. But how I actually write one of these scripts. It's it's just sort of a thing that happens, you know, and there are certain rules. I mean, obviously, you know that you have to establish all your characters and the the impetus for the story all has to happen within the first 20 pages and preferably within the first 10 There needs to be some action in the opening. At some point in those first 20 pages, the hero makes a decision that propels you into the story, or propels the hero into the story. The dilemma has to be presented to the hero and then he has to make a decision as to what to do and that changes his world somewhere in the middle. There has to be a turnaround where suddenly things aren't going to go the way the hero had hoped they were going to go and then as you get towards the three quarter point in the story, you know that there generally needs to be an all is lost moment where it looks like everybody's gonna die.

Alex Ferrari 50:00
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Thunder Levin 50:09
And then that propels you into your action finale where the hero does something and saves the day. That's about as close to a formal structure as I really get. And, and then it's just a matter of what happens. And now again, when I'm writing for the asylum, and they have this very strict eight act structure, that's a bit different, because I know that each act is going to be about 12 minutes long, the first act will be a bit longer, and the last act will be a bit shorter. And in each of those acts, there has to be an action beat. So that needs to be fulfilled in the outline stage.

Jason Buff 50:48
So you're writing for commercials? Or is it like, is that the breakup?

Thunder Levin 50:53
Well, they don't want you to write for hard commercial breaks. Although on on Sharknado, two, I started doing that. Because sci fi, when they air, these movies will often put the brakes someplace other than where you thought they were gonna go. But they still want it structured so that every 12 minutes, there's a there's an action beat, and sort of a mini climax. And then each one would get progressively bigger until you reach the app. So you do, especially for the ones that they know are going to sci fi, you do have to delineate your acts. And they all need to be about the right length, you know, so maybe one act could be a bit shorter, maybe you could have a 10 minute act. If you have somewhere else and act that's 14 or 15 minutes, but that's about as structured as I get.

Jason Buff 51:44
Now, when you wrote Apocalypse Earth. Did you read that? Right that at about the same time as Sharknado?

Thunder Levin 51:49
Yes. And it should, it should be noted that it was not called Apocalypse earth when I wrote it, it was just called a ye. And there were a variety of things that he was going to stand for. And basically, when people asked me what did it stand for, I said, almost everything. Apocalypse Earth was actually a tag that was added on during post production by the assailant. And at first they were going to call it alpha Earth. And I was like, No, we can't call it alpha her if that gives away the twist at the end. So apocalypse, or at somehow I thought, well, there's this big Apocalypse In the opening scene. So if we call it Apocalypse Earth, and people see that maybe they won't be looking for the twist later on. But yes, I was. Let's see, how did that how did that go? They came to me, I was talking. It was after American warships. And we were talking about what my next project for them was going to be. And we were talking about a giant monster movie that they wanted. And so at first, I agreed to do this giant monster movie. Now, that's not how it worked. We were talking about what we were going to do. And we were still tossing around ideas. And they came to me and they said, We want you to write a movie called Shark storm. And that just didn't sound very appealing. It seemed like Shark storm. Okay, well, there, there have been a lot of movies about sharks and storms. And just like what why would we need this? It didn't appeal. So I said no. And we kept talking about, about other projects. And, and we started talking about this giant monster movie that they wanted to do, which I guess was gonna be a mock Buster of Pacific Rim. And so I started working on that, and sort of a vague concept form. And then they came back to me. And they said, Okay, what we really want you to do is Sharknado. And I said, what the sharks have to do with the North Atlantic Treaty Organization? And they said, no, no, no, not Sharknado Sharknado tornado full of sharks. And I said, That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Jason Buff 53:58
And that makes a lot more sense.

Thunder Levin 54:00
And if I can write it that way, then sure, I'd love to do that. Because the asylum tends to play all their movies completely straight. They don't like they don't like to stray into into farce or comedy, unless it's a comedy, which personally I have always taken issue with, because I think if you're going to make a low budget movie, and you know, it's going to be low budget, and it's going to look kind of cheap, then it's better to get the audience laughing with you than achoo. That was certainly the approach I took with mutant vampire zombies from the hood. And so when they said Sharknado, I was a little concerned that they would want to play it completely straight. And I just didn't see how you could take a movie called Sharknado and play it completely straight. And they said now we understand it's called Sharknado. And there's going to be a certain tongue in cheek element to it. And so with that comforting thought, I agreed to do it and originally I was supposed to direct it So I guess this was, this would have been the summer of 2012. And so the outlining process went pretty smoothly. And then the script writing, the first draft went very smoothly. And it was done in in a relatively quick period of time. And there weren't a lot of notes. And it was just done. And I was going to direct it, except that I felt a little burned on American warships, because I thought I, what we had done on set was really was really a good movie. And then I thought, the visual effects, which we'd really been depending on, kind of let us down. And if I'd known their process a bit better. That was that was the first film I directed for the assignment, I've had really sort of known a bit better, what we were going to be dealing with, maybe I wouldn't have left the film, so dependent on the visual effects. And so I was looking at the script I'd written for Sharknado. And thinking, there's just no way, there's just no way that this can be done on the kind of budget they're talking about, at least I don't see how to do it, I could do it for 20 million, maybe I could do it for 10 million. It's really $100 million film. And, and so I I sort of shied away from directing it because I didn't want to be in that position again. Because even though the script had this tongue in cheek element to it, I still, I didn't want to be unintentionally bad, you know, the stuff that was going to be cheesy, had to be where I intended it to be cheesy, I didn't want to be in a position where I just didn't have what I needed to make it the way I wanted it to look. And at the same time, I had been getting utterly enthralled with Game of Thrones. And I had this this sort of craving to create a whole world. And I've always been a science fiction guy. So I went into the director of development. And I said, Look, you know, we've got this Sharknado, and I'm supposed to direct it. But truth is, what I really want to do is make a movie where I can create a whole world and have a society in it, and just sort of build something from the ground up, call alternate reality. And he said, Well, we've got this project, that it's the one sentence description, is a group of refugees from Earth have to survive on a hostile alien planet? And that just sounded perfect to me. But I said, Yes, I'll do that. And so I started writing that, and that would have been, I guess, September of 2012. And so I wrote a UI. And as that writing process was going along, they scheduled the shoots of a UI, and Sharknado for exactly the same time, they were both going to shoot in January. And so I was forced to choose. And at that point, I decided to do a EA and I wanted to do this science fiction film in the jungle. And so I said, you know, I, I respectfully withdraw from Sharknado. I hope somebody else makes it work. And I'm gonna go off to Costa Rica, and shoot my science fiction movie. And in retrospect, I don't know if that was the stupidest thing I've ever done or not. You know, because if if I had written and directed Sharknado, then I would be the one getting all the attention for it. And maybe I'd be hailed as this, this great genius. Whereas now Anthony and I are splitting the attention for, but at the same time, you know, you wonder maybe things went the way they were supposed to go. And maybe it wouldn't have worked if I directed it. Who knows if if something Anthony did you know and dealing with not having the resources he needed to properly create this, this insane situation that I had written? You know, that it could well be that that is what endeared it to people. So maybe things worked out for the best, and I'm getting the attention from Sharknado. But I also have this serious science fiction film that I can point to and say, See, I can do that too.

Jason Buff 59:30
Now when you saw Sharknado, was it pretty much kind of how you would envision it or is it very different from your your idea?

Thunder Levin 59:37
Well, Anthony didn't want me to see it until it was done. It was funny because we met for the first time in the editing room. We were sharing an editing suite. I was cutting a at the same time he was cutting Sharknado and I was in there working with my editor and this guy walks in and he walks up to me and he says I want to punch you

Alex Ferrari 1:00:01
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Thunder Levin 1:00:10
And I didn't know who he was. And I said, Oh, okay, why? And he said, I directed Sharknado. I said, Oh, well, then you are very right.

Jason Buff 1:00:21
That makes sense.

Thunder Levin 1:00:24
So that was the beginning of what has become a great friendship. But he didn't want me to see it until it was done. So I didn't actually see. I mean, while we were editing, you know, I would look over my shoulder because we were sharing this editing suite. And so I would occasionally look over my shoulder to see what had become of my words. And some of it looked right. And some of it was like, What the hell is that? You know, because there was there was a car chase, and I didn't write a car chase. What was that about? You know, and obviously, they didn't have the wherewithal for it to be raining constantly in every shot, and for Los Angeles to be filling up with water, which was this giant disaster that I'd written. So when I finally saw it, I saw it with the public along with everybody else, I was just at home watching it on TV,

Jason Buff 1:01:12
There wasn't a premiere or anything at the at the asylum or anything was done.

Thunder Levin 1:01:16
There wasn't what what happens out here is we get the East Coast sci fi feed. And then there's the RE airing for the West Coast. So the plan was that people were just going to watch the East Coast feed, you know, wherever they were, then we were all going to get together to watch the West Coast feed at a party. But then the, you know, during the initial broadcast, this whole thing started happening on Twitter. And it just sort of became insane. And so I was on the computer and I was corresponding with people and tweeting, and getting phone calls for people saying, Can you believe what's happening and all this stuff. And so then I had to run out at the last minute to go to the party for the second airing. And I got, I guess it was going to start at nine o'clock here. And I got in the car and I got on the freeway. And for some reason, I guess there'd been an accident or something. But the flu was at a dead standstill. And after about 20 minutes of this and realizing I'd already missed the beginning. I just gave up and went home and got back on Twitter and get back on Facebook and email where the world was still blowing up. And very strange things were happening. And I was corresponding with Damon Lindelof. And I was starting to get requests for interviews, and it was just sort of the most surreal night I can imagine. But yeah, for the so for the first 20 to 30 minutes of Sharknado. I was sitting there going, what? That's not. That's not what I know, wait, what, but after that, after about the first 30 minutes, it settles down to be basically the way I wrote it. I mean, it doesn't look like what I saw in my head because I still had this huge disaster movie, Los Angeles is filling up with water kind of thing. You know, as the background I, to me, it was a it was a two layer thing, there was this realistic disaster movie going on, where Los Angeles is flooding. And then on top of that there was this ridiculous element of sharks falling from the sky. And so obviously, the realism of the of the disaster scenario was not achievable on the budget they had. And so I can't say that it looked the way I saw it in my head when I wrote it. Except for certain moments where we're really did. But on the whole, you know, I was, I was a little frustrated that they couldn't really achieve that kind of level of destruction and disaster. But still that they kept to my script from from about the 20 or 30 minute going on. And I was no longer going. Wait, I didn't write that. Anthony changed a fair amount in the in the opening.

Jason Buff 1:04:13
Do you think they carried off the tone that you had the kind of comic tone but not like the actors took it seriously, but they were within a world that was kind of, you know, chaotic, or, or absurd, in a way? Yeah,

Thunder Levin 1:04:26
I mean that the tone was what what I intended. The production value was where I wasn't what I had envisioned. But one of the reasons that I ended up not directing it was because I knew there was no way to achieve what I had in my head. So I think it all worked out for the best.

Jason Buff 1:04:43
Now you guys went back and making Sharknado two was the process completely different now that you had had all this success with the first one?

Thunder Levin 1:04:52
Yes. It was. It was interesting because the first One, nobody paid any attention. To me, the outlining story outlining process, you know, there were there were a few notes. And then it was like, Okay, go ahead and write. And then the first draft of the script, the asylum had a few notes, which I addressed, then sci fi had a few notes. And then it was done. And you know, nobody thought anything of it, it was just this ridiculous little moving. By the second one, of course, it'd become this phenomena. And so everybody had their eyes on it. And every little thing that I did, was being examined by, you know, half a dozen different people who all had to have input on it. So it was, it was a much more political process, getting the second script done. And of course, there was a lot more riding on it, because the first one, nobody thought anything of it. And the second one, suddenly, suddenly, it was going to become this franchise, if we didn't screw it up. So so there was there was a lot more pressure, there was a lot more eyes on the whole process took a lot longer getting the getting the script done. Now, what

Jason Buff 1:06:06
Well, does it feel like when all of a sudden people are, you know, noticing you and wanting to interview you, and you get all this recognition? How does that feel? Is it a good feeling? Or is it kind of? Does it give you anxiety? Or no?

Thunder Levin 1:06:20
The only anxiety has actually has happened in the last couple of months, where somehow my home address got out on the internet, I guess. And so I've been getting fan mail at home. And that's a little disturbing. Fortunately, it's all been good. There haven't been any death threats. But the fact that somehow my address got out there, that makes me a little bit anxious. Other than that, it's just been wonderful. You know, I mean, I came out to Hollywood expecting to be the next Steven Spielberg and imagining something like this, but imagining it happening 20 years ago. And so after years of struggling in anonymity, while I still hope, for a level of success and public appreciation, I'm not sure I necessarily expected it anymore. So when it when it finally started happening, it's just been wonderful. But I had been, you know, sort of preparing myself for this kind of career, you know, for 20 odd years. So I think if it had actually happened, when I was young, when I first came out here probably would have messed with my hand, I think the years of, of struggling, have allowed me to stay a lot more grounded during this whole process. And just sort of take it for what it is and enjoy it. And not let myself get too carried away with it all. But you know, it's a wonderful thing. You go to these conventions and lining up to get your autograph. And telling you how much they love the movie and what fun they had with it. And little kids do they remember, at Comic Con, not this last summer, but the year before, after the first movie had just come out. I walked on to walked onto the floor at Comic Con The first night I got there. And it was about the clothes, I'd gotten there really late because there was traffic or I don't remember what it was, but I got there late. So I just figured I'd take a quick walk around the convention floor. And I'm walking through these tables of displays and stuff. And the very first little snippet of a conversation I hear as I'm walking past somebody is this guy say, yeah, and then he dives into the shark. And then he cuts his way out. And that was literally the first thing I heard as I walked through the congenic convention floor Comicon. And now it's just surreal. And then the next day we were doing this poster signing. And you know, we'd been signing pretty consistently for like half an hour. And I was kind of surprised that people were still coming. And so I took a break and I went out to look for the line to see where all these people were coming from. And I couldn't find the line. All I saw was the big crowd of people filling the hall. And then I realized that was our line and they were actually lined up out the door to get these posters. And mind you I and and Tara weren't even there. It was me and Anthony, and Jason Simmons. And, and one other cast member, I think. So the big stars weren't even there. And we have a line out the door of people to get their Sharknado poster. So I was just like, What is going on here? This is amazing. And then this, this mother came up with a little girl who must have been about, I don't know, six or seven. And she was dancing around going Sharknado who's Jack Daedalus, running around in circles. And it's just been a remarkable experience.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:59
Well be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Thunder Levin 1:10:08
And it's just so it's just really wonderful to see that people have gotten into it like this and have embraced it in the spirit that we intended. Just a wonderful feeling.

Jason Buff 1:10:20
Well, it's funny because my, my son's completely obsessed with tornadoes right now. And his favorite movie is Twister. He's six years old. Okay. And last night, I had Sharknado on, you know, doing a little bit of research. And I was like, son, this is a tornado, but to tornado with sharks in it, and he just about lost his mind. That was the first thing he said this morning. He's like, Dad, can we watch Sharknado. And I was like, after school, maybe it's, you know, a good time. I'm sorry. So I had one more thing that you had mentioned something in an interview before, that's kind of a different topic. And I just wanted to ask you this real quick, and then let you go. You had said that, if you could do things all over again, you would have made a feature film a lot earlier in your career. And I was wondering if you could just talk a little bit about that?

Thunder Levin 1:11:10
Well, like I said, there, it had always been in the back of my mind that if I didn't succeed, if I didn't get where I wanted to go, following the traditional route of trying to get a film, getting somebody to make a film, getting a production company or a studio to hire me to make a film, that eventually I was just going to have to raise the money and make my own. But I guess I kept putting off that moment. Because that reaching that decision sort of implied that I had failed up to them that nobody was going to hire me to make a movie. And so, so coming to accept that and saying, Okay, I'm gonna have to take matters into my own hands, took longer than it probably should have, if I had made that zombie movie five or 10 years earlier, then the things that came as a result of it would have happened five or 10 years earlier. And, you know, hopefully, I would be five or 10 years further along in my career than I am now. Because because everything that's happened, from making movies to the asylum to the success of Sharknado, all of that can be traced back to the to that zombie film, where I proved that, yes, I can actually make a movie. So if I, if I had done that sooner, then maybe I'd be further along now. And maybe I'd be making big studio films now. Or at least maybe I would have spent an extra 10 years doing what I wanted to do rather than just struggling to make a living. So I do sort of regret not having made that film earlier. The question arises, you know, would I have wouldn't have been as successful if I'd done it when I was younger and had less experience and less maturity? I don't know. There's no way to know, of course, I think it would have.

Jason Buff 1:13:07
Don't you think technology also kinds of play plays a role to a certain extent, I mean, that that it's so much cheaper to?

Thunder Levin 1:13:14
Yeah, we were, we were able to make that film cheaper than if we'd shot it 10 years earlier, and had the shoot on film, actually, even five years earlier, because we were, we were sort of, you know, we weren't the first indie film to shoot on HD, but it was still a relatively new thing. And so the technology was still actually sort of a question mark. At that point. I remember we, we built a computer to edit it. It was like, Okay, what what does this computer need to be able to do, and I ended up spending like five grand to build a computer. And now you could do it for, you know, 800 on a laptop. So yeah, I probably would have been more expensive, if we'd done it sooner. But at the same time, there was more money available, because films were more expensive than and part of the so called democratization of film that's come with the digital revolution. I think there's a little less respect for what it takes to make a movie. Now people think, Oh, well, anybody with a video camera can make a movie. And that's not true. And unfortunately, I think people think, oh, it's really cheap to make a movie now. And that's not true either. Certain elements have become less expensive. You don't have to process film stock. You don't have to buy film stock. You don't need to print your movie at the end. Renting a high end HD camera costs as much as renting you know, a pan of flexio stew. So that hasn't changed too much. If you're really trying to do it at a professional level. Yes, you can go out and buy a cheap HD camera now. I mean, you know there there are phones that will shoot 4k video. But but they still have crappy little plastic lens It's not like you're really going to be able to make a movie that looks like a movie, on your camera phone. So yes, certain elements have gotten cheaper, you know, you don't need to rent an avid anymore, you can do it on, on any home computer, you can edit a film. Now, digital effects can be done on less sophisticated computers. But you still need the really good software, and you still need people who know how to use it. And, and so the craft hasn't changed, it hasn't gotten any cheaper. But unfortunately, people seem to think it has. And so, you know, it used to be the people in the film industry got paid pretty well. And part of that was the assumption that they had a craft that they had learned over many years, that was a was a rare skill. And part of it was the fact that you're not going to be working 50 weeks a year. So you need to be paid enough when you are working to live, you know, in between projects. And one of the unfortunate things that's happened in recent years is people seem to have forgotten that these are still hard won hard fought skills that take a lot of time to perfect. And not just anybody with a computer, and an iPhone can do it. You need to know what you're doing. But because of the technological advances, there's a there's a change perception, I think, of what's involved here. And so people think that they shouldn't have to pay for all this stuff. So you see all these visual effects companies, you know, winning Oscars, and then going out of business, because they're forced to do things so cheaply. And you see people making films on their iPhone, and then they get surprised when they can't sell the movie to a distributor. So it's been a double edged sword, I think. And yes, certain aspects of it are a bit cheaper than it used to be, but cost like sets and feeding your crew, and hiring actors and hiring crew and putting them up if you're in a different location or building sets, or finding locations and paying for none of the costs of this stuff have changed. Movies are expensive, it's very hard to make a good movie cheap. You know, every once in a while it can be done if you have a concept that lends itself to that like you know, The Blair Witch Project then, or if you're making a movie about two people sitting at a table talking. But but to make to make a popcorn movie still costs money just just because the cameras in the editing equipment are a bit cheaper now doesn't really change that.

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IFH 709: The Virgin’s Journey & Sexual Awakening with Kim Hudson

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Kim Hudson 0:00
I can conquer it and I can go out and be active in the world. So that's my relationship to self in a masculine way. And then in a feminine way is I learned how to turn the camera inwards and how to bring something authentic about myself into a physical form almost like alchemy.

Alex Ferrari 0:17
This episode is brought to you by Bulletproof Script Coverage, where screenwriters go to get their scripts read by Top Hollywood Professionals. Learn more at covermyscreenplay.com I'd like to welcome to the show, Kim Hudson. How you doin Kim?

Kim Hudson 0:32
I'm good. Thank you for having me.

Alex Ferrari 0:34
Thank you so much for coming on the show. Like I was telling you earlier. I really love your your book because and please remind me the name I don't have it with me.

Kim Hudson 0:45
The virgins promise the virgins price of feminine spiritual and creative awakening, sexual awakening,

Alex Ferrari 0:52
Obviously, we have to, we have to throw in the sexual awakening it because it's interesting, you really kind of take the hero's journey, which is something that every screenwriter should know. Even if they don't use it, they should know. But you turn it on its head a little bit and look at it from a feminine perspective. And I'm dying to kind of get into the weeds with you for but first, how did you get involved? And how did you get interested in writing a book like this? Because there really hasn't, if Am I mistaken? There's no other book like this right?

Kim Hudson 1:25
Now there isn't, which really surprises me. The biggest thing is that that phrase all story from all the time it's a hero's journey has just embedded itself in people's psyche. So they're not really looking, they'll say, Oh, well, there's the hero line. But no, that's that's the energy of a hero a fear based journey to conquer something, including your own fear. And, and when the day is a very externally focused story. And heroine is just a woman doing that job. Whereas this one, this one is the exact opposite. This is about turning inward, and awakening to your true potential, your, your sense of connection to who you are, what your talent is, what your sexual orientation is, something that's authentic about you. And then how do we go about first discovering that, growing it, and then bringing it to life? Now, what I was gonna say actually didn't answer your question. How did I actually get there? How did I, I think, you know, I grew up I grew up in a in a family that highly valued the masculine. And so I just tried to do everything I could, I played ice hockey, I became a geologist, I jumped over helicopters and grizzly bear country, you know, like I was really given her and even then, I started to recognize that when I was alone, after the helicopter left, I did things in my way. And I was actually good at finding patterns of mineralization all those kinds of things because I was trusting my intuition I was going inward and and discovering where that would take me a trusted walking into the unknown. And all of these things are parts of a virgin journey. And virgin, I always have to say this, if I had $1 for every time, Virgin is what I mean is the original meaning of it, which means to be of value to seen for your value just for being yourself, like a virgin forest. It's commonly used in Union thought.

Alex Ferrari 3:36
So not not as virgin as as in the 1980s comedies.

Kim Hudson 3:41
Yeah, yeah. Not as like men can count on you haven't been taken before, you know,

Alex Ferrari 3:48
Virgin scenario.

Kim Hudson 3:49
Yeah, but it does actually mean I mean, going from Virgin to inactive person and knowing sort of what you like and don't like it's actually is that it's awakening to your sexual orientation. That's one of the most fundamental ways of finding your authentic self.

Alex Ferrari 4:06
It's really interesting, it seems to me from just from the short conversation so far that it is an inward journey more than an outward journey. Yeah, because the hero's journey is all about conquering the the the dragon that is in the cave that is guarding the treasure where this one is about conquering the dragon inside of you and discovering who you really are, which is man it's literally the flip side of the of the coin of the hero's journey literally,

Kim Hudson 4:33
As a matter of fact, as a hero you're conquering you're controlling you're taking control over something outside of you, but actually the dragon inside you you're welcoming. You're you're exploring what does it want me to know what's the you know? It's the opposite in every fundamental way.

Alex Ferrari 4:51
I've said on the show many times I've surrounded by feminine energy constantly. I have no testosterone anywhere near me at anytime I have women I've been around women my entire her life single mother, the whole ball of wax. So I understand more than most about feminine energy not anywhere near as much as obviously you. But I do, I do have a better take on it than most men do. And as I've grown older, what you're talking about is really interesting, because I think at the beginning of a man's career, or man's life, a boy's life, we are about conquering, we are about showing physicality, we are about going in and grabbing the the gold or the treasure and bringing it back. Yeah, all of that kind of, you know, macho testosterone thing. But as you get older, you know, even the toughest guys that I know, you know, Navy Seals and other people like that, they start to when that's done, they start to look inward. And then the beginning of that journey starts at a later time in a man's life. Again, very broad, broad spectrum I'm talking about here, not everybody, but most. And it seems to me that a woman's journey, and please, please correct me, it seems to be more an inward journey at the beginning of her her life trying to figure herself out in the world, is that a fair statement?

Kim Hudson 6:18
I would say there's definitely and particularly today that we're on this place where there's room for women to be themselves, and yet there's still vestiges of like a dependent world, I think we get messages that, you know, either that you might hate what you have to be pleasing, or that it's a male dominated world, and you have to sort of emulate men to get ahead in the world, but there's still those messages out there. So there is this, this starting out where you feel that you're meant for something, and it's in contrast to the environment that you're in, and you have to figure out a way to, to go inward, be strong enough in who you know, you are. And I call it a secret world, like, it's part of the story where you have to find a place where you, you feel like you're, you're surrounded by friends, and then people want you to do well. And then you can play, you can make mistakes, you can laugh, you can step into the unknown and, and then figure out what it what it needs from you or what it has to offer. So we still we have that when we're young. But I would actually say at the time when like it's a circle. So you, your children leave and suddenly all your roles have drifted away. And you need to go back again, you need to circle back and find out who am I now I'm not the same person that I was when I first discovered myself. And you're sort of born again, your third learning again to find out who this authentic person is today and then see that person in the world.

Alex Ferrari 7:50
So let's talk about the actual journey of the Virgin our archetypal journey, which, in the hero's journey, we all, you know, call to adventure and, you know, you know, the point of no return and all these kinds of terms that Joseph Campbell, so beautifully built out. And then Chris Vogler, talked about it so beautifully for the film industry. What is what are those key points in, in the Virgin journey?

Kim Hudson 8:17
Okay, I'll do my little party trick. I think that in five minutes, I can tell you a virgin story. And it can, if you'll hold in your mind, even something like Joker, or Billy Elliot, or coda, Black Swan, all of these are really great examples of virgin story. So I'm going to tell them in a certain order, but one thing I've discovered is it's nonlinear. So you actually could tell these beats in any order, but those beats will fundamentally be part of the journey. Okay? So the Virgin starts out in a dependent world, where messages around her Tell her how she should behave. But there's a price that she's paying, either she's aware of it, and she's hiding it, or she's even asleep to her own potential, but she's paying a price for conformity. Until one day, she gets this opportunity to shine a little taste of what it would be like to be herself. And she takes it, she likes it. And it's usually almost the moment of alchemy, where the dancer gets the shoes and just the putting them on seems to activate something or sexual orientation becomes clearer because they take off their clothes, and suddenly they know what they want. So now that they know, a little taste of it, they want more. So they create a secret well, because they're not ready to blow up their dependent world. These are actually their, their family, their home life. So what they do is they create a secret world so they can go back and forth between the two. And then the secret world as I mentioned, they're learning to become more connected and playing with what it might look like and they've got friends, they can make mistakes. But that going back and forth is crucial. They they're learning the contrast between what they think they want their life to be and what their life is and why Those differences have to exist. And they're kind of building a bridge until one day, they start to expand to the point where they just can't stay contained. And the two collide their two worlds, their dependent world and their sicuro collide and form one. And the kingdom goes into chaos. A lot of pent up energy, there's synchronicities that have been held together, suddenly, there's permission and things start blowing up. But there's this moment where she recognizes because of all that back and forth, that she can give up the belief that she had to behave that way she did in her dependent world, she gives up the belief that was keeping her stuck. But that's not the same as going forward in a new life. So now she's wandering in the wilderness, she's trying to figure out, well, I could go back and take everybody out of their pain, all this chaos, with the full knowledge of that I actually have more potential than this. Or she could go forward, but there's no tangible proof that she can make a life. But she chooses her life, because it's not really living unless she chooses to be herself in that in the world. But when she makes herself visible, someone and even could be herself decides, that is worth protecting, valuing. And I call it the reorder or the rescue. And so the world reorder so that there's a place for her to be in her natural shining form. And amazing things is the kingdom discovers that it needed what the Virgin had to bring, either there's no unconditional love in the world, or there is a new talent that she brought that that has offered something new to the world. And it's better off to do a montage here. And that's the Virgin story.

Alex Ferrari 11:41
So that's interesting. It's a fascinating way of looking at it. Because as you were talking about it, I'm trying to go through movies in my head. I'm like, where is like, you know, my computer's like, like trying to figure out where you can place these. Because the hero's journey, there's 1000 of them. But, but this is interesting, but you said the word Joker, so this doesn't particularly have to be a feminine heroine. It could be male, because it seems like it's an again, an internal journey, it seems as you were explaining it, almost almost spiritual in nature, in the in the way that it, you're trying to find the authentic voice in you. So like, if you really, if you're Billy Elliot, all I want to do is dance. But the world around me doesn't allow me to do that. So then, so it sounds like okay, Billy Elliot, I get the Joker's have really dark version of that. So can we break that? Because Joker is a very popular movie, it was, I loved one of the best movies of that year. And arguably this last decade. Can we kind of break down Joker and it's kind of like go beat by beat a little bit with that. Is that are you? Are you able to do that? Do you remember Joker?

Kim Hudson 12:47
Well, God, I think I've written a blog on that. But you know, I was really hesitant to watch Joker, I can't watch horror it like gets into me, and I never can forget it. Never be alone again, kind of thing. But once I watched it, that is such a spectacularly well written, movie. Everything that's in the background is telling you that dependent world, you'd listen to what's happening on the radio and the interviews and they're all saying the dependent world is that if you do well, then you get your just reward. And therefore, people who are not doing well don't deserve to do well. Either. They didn't work hard enough, or they like so. Doing well means you deserve well, not doing well means you need to suffer. And that's, you know, so there's this guy, and he's trying really hard to smile for his mother. And that's his dependent world, right? He's trying to like, but it's, it's forced, because the world is not accepting Him. And so he goes inward, and he has this fantasy world. And he where this woman loves him. And that's a secret world, right? And it actually starts the two worlds collide, where he actually starts being a joker in his real world. And that's when everything starts to blow up. And the thing about Joker is that the secret world is not always as harmonious as I made it describe. It's his best way to make sense of the world he has around him. You know, it's his mind trying to help him to to navigate this world. Yeah, but it's um, it's harsh. But do you remember when he was sitting there talking with the counselor? And and Yeah, after when he's saying you know, they you're like he's being told you not getting meds anymore? And this and that. And he goes, do you notice you don't listen to me? And do you notice that you know, you're not doing any better off than I'm doing? Like the system is not helping either of us? Well, that's his gives up what kept him stuck moment. He's like, we don't have to conform and play our role in something that's actually not working for us. And so what would be other beats? Because they're not in the in the order. That's A great example of how things don't have to be

Alex Ferrari 15:02
Well, I'm in order. And then I think when I think if I remember correctly when he was on the subway for the first time, and he he, I think he shot those guys or something. He there's a point where he crosses the line, where that kind of point no return, but it's like, the flip side of that, like there's a thing that he does the now he has to you can't go back to where it was he can't there's no way he has to move forward on this journey.

Kim Hudson 15:30
Yeah, yeah. And when he chooses his light, it's kind of at our for a moment where he, he's with the measured and the other guy, and just beat the other guy to oblivion. And he's just like, You know what, I don't deserve this. And then he does. And that's another thing about these stories is that they circle back again. So it happens again, when they mock him on television, basically choose his light. He's like, you know, I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore. It's like, I deserve respect this whole model, where just because I have a learning disability, or I'm on a secret because my father is an important man. And he does and and I'm embarrassment, that does not make me deserve this kind of negative treatment. And he chooses his light, because I will not accept that. And even though at first he was actually just going to go out in a big bang, and make everybody sorry, he ends up choosing his own life over somebody.

Alex Ferrari 16:28
And isn't it interesting that his choice, and this is when you say the world reconfirms around him. And spoiler alert, please, everyone stop listening, or fast forward a few minutes, because I'm gonna talk a little bit about the ending. But when he does all the things he does on the Robert De Niro Tonight Show thing. Yeah. And he basically causes a riot. And the entire world is also like, yeah, we feel like you too. And all of a sudden, it all just literally the world reforms around him. And he becomes this reader icon of this movement, where he was truly just trying to do it for himself. But he realizes that, oh, I'm not alone. There's a lot of more messages in the bottle, if you will, out there.

Kim Hudson 17:18
Right, which is his first moment of having a secret world where he's actually among friends. But it's like the big world. Right? And he even says in his interview, that I wasn't trying to save the world. I don't have some big mission here. I do. I look like a guy who's got a plan. I'm just actually being myself, right? I'm just trying to be real here. And that turned out to be a guy in a joker costume. I'm gonna take control of this.

Alex Ferrari 17:47
And it's so interesting, because talking about you know, feminine energy and spirituality and sexual awakening, you don't think Joker, but because which is a fairly testosterone. I mean, there's a lot of testosterone in that movie, but he has a he has a feminine energy to him. He's he's really struggling. He's, he's really just trying to figure things out emotional Areum when Jesus is the Joker, I mean, very emotional. Like he is. So it's a fascinating study of story structure. Looking at that, because we'll talk about some other examples. But Joker is a fascinating one. Because it is you know, it's something you can think about.

Kim Hudson 18:29
Yeah, one day, I was listening to the whole story of frozen, talking about same storyline, but very different feel to it. Where the Woman Yeah, but you think about it, what is it Elsa? That she has a power, and she's told that it's evil, and she has to keep it in. And then she decides, you know what, I'm gonna let it go. If you listen to the song, let it go. And sort of play the soundtrack or the track for children in your mind.

Alex Ferrari 19:00
I have children.

Kim Hudson 19:03
Yeah, million times. But think about Joker, the movie Joker, and then let it go the song. You put those two together and it's quite phenomenal. It the words speak to what he's trying to say in that movie. Wow. It's really fun.

Alex Ferrari 19:18
That's pretty trippy. i Everyone, please let us know what you think if you could try to listen to let it let it go. While you're watching Joker and see how it connects. It's like was it watching Led Zeppelin with the Wizard of Oz and everything clicks on? Yeah, exactly. It's like the Dark Side of the Moon. That's hilarious. Now um, can you can you talk about because on the hero's journey, there are the archetypes the wizard the trickster? What are those in this journey?

Kim Hudson 19:52
So I have this theory that there's basically three big archetypal journeys that we all have the potential to Go on in our life, I'm, I think in my life a well lived journey, if my life will be a will, well, a journey, I'll go through all three of them. And we actually can do them in a masculine and a feminine way. So the first is your relationship to self. And the hero is I, I, in relation to my fear of life, I can conquer it, and I can go out and be active in the world. So that's my relationship to self in a masculine way. And then in a feminine way is I learned how to turn the camera inwards, and how to bring something authentic about myself into a physical form, almost like alchemy. So those are both a relationship to self. The next is, how do I cross the distance? The distance between me and somebody who is not me? And that's that relationship to another person? And how do I maintain myself and still respect somebody who's different from me, and that would be the warrior king in the mother goddess. And then the last one is this ultimate recognition that we are a part of a cosmos of a bigger picture. And for the masculine that would be the mentor, you know, the philanthropist, this idea that I know, I'm going to die, and I'm going to pass on my knowledge so that there's a benefit from generation to generation. So it's, it's this very concrete recognition that life is finite. And then the feminine side, it's the Crone, it's the sense that, that life is all about connection. And we're about to make a connection into the whole cosmos. So while you're still on the planet, you start to recognize that you can see the connections that other people might be missing and throw like a trickster, you go in there, and you mess with their lives a little bit, just to get them on the track. Because you know, that everything's connected. And their connection to themselves is fundamental to everything else, unfolding the way it's meant to.

Alex Ferrari 21:59
I'm gonna get a little deep here for a second, because as you were talking about that was very interesting, because at the beginning of my career, I went out to conquer, and I went out to go direct, and I make movies and work hard and, and I worked my ass off for 20 odd years in the film industry, working in post production and directing movies and commercials and music videos and things like that. And it was very outward hero's journey was very out must conquer, conquer, conquer, conquer. But then, which is was interesting, I looked inward. When I was unhappy, I was lost for a little while, I opened up an olive oil company, a lot of people who listen to the show understand, that's a whole other story. So I got a little lost. And then I looked inward. And when I looked inward, I said, Hmm, I need to bring up my authentic self, and help the world. And that's when I launched the show. The indie film, hustle shows first and then the bulletproof screenwriting afterwards. But I launched that show. And by being my authentic self, very much like the Joker, not trying to do anything other than just try to help, whoever listened, it grew into where we are today. And is where I found my true happiness, even though I still enjoy going out and directing and the external. My true happiness is here, talking to you sharing information. That's a completely inward spiritual, almost look inside of what I'm doing. Does that make sense in the journey for you?

Kim Hudson 23:28
Absolutely. Yeah. And, and I find that there's two fundamentally different understandings of power. And you you touched on them there. When you're in the Hero mode, it's to assert your will even against resistance. That means hard work long hours, overcoming obstacles, but in a virtual world. Power comes from knowing yourself, and then bringing that self into life, and then supporting others in doing the same. And it's, it's extremely powerful.

Alex Ferrari 23:58
Oh, my God, it's been I mean, it's so powerful, in fact, that in the in the time period where I was doing the external hero's journey, let's say, I would have killed to have access to the people that I get access to now who reach out to me now. It's fascinating. I have Oscar winners, and I have legends and people in the film industry who want to be on my show. And I'm like, and I sit back sometimes, like, isn't this interesting? How this is, this whole story is turned its head, if you would have told me 1015 years ago, this wouldn't be the way you know, it I would be able to do things in is the key is not out. It's in and again, when I was saying earlier, the out is a very young man's energy. It's the warrior in us we need to go out and conquer. And I forgot there's four stages of development. The Warrior the teacher, forgot the four but there's, there's these four archetypes that someone's someone much more intelligent than that. coming out, says MATT Yeah, sent said these four things. And I was like, Oh, that's so true. Because when you're young, you're a warrior, you go out to try to conquer to, to show off physicality. But as the years go on, the physicality starts to go and you start to go inward and you want to become the teacher or the mentor. In other things, there's a couple other the other two stages. But it's so true. But it's so powerful that now by going inward coming out, being authentic and trying to help others, is when all of the things that I was kind of looking for in the warrior journey is now literally handed to me on a plate where I can make relations. It's interesting. It's just fascinating. Hopefully, people listening, this is a little bit more of a philosophical, spiritual, and screenwriting conversation. But it's so true. Any good reason why the hero's journey connects with so many people. It is a metaphor for life, we all go through hero's journey at one point or another.

Kim Hudson 25:55
Absolutely, we need to do both. Like I am never going to say that the virgins promises a better story than the hero's journey. It's, you know, in life, we need to do both. Like there are things to be afraid of, we do need to like set a goal plan to not fall into every pitfall that you know, life is offering. And you have to like you have to save for a rainy day all these things that that give us comfort and safety.

Alex Ferrari 26:23
And not everything. No, it's not everything. You're right. And again, as you get older, you realize that that the hero's journey is not everything in this inward journey is the journey that is much more powerful, much more powerful, because it's tapping in

Kim Hudson 26:39
And yet, yeah. And yet, so underrecognized people often think, Oh, I have to have a plan, I have to like I'll never have any power. And because this is such a, almost a power of humility. In other words, by the more you're, you're doing an offering what you truly love, it's contagious. And it draws people into you that want similar things or that can feel inspired by you. And then you get inspired back, it always gives these unexpected gifts.

Alex Ferrari 27:12
It's so interesting, because I a lot of screenwriters asked me, you know, what do I do to to make it into business? What do I like? What's the secret sauce, and I go, you are, if you can tap into your authentic self, and speak authentically through your writing, there is nobody in the world that could compete with you, because no one can be you. And if you study, and I've had the pleasure of talking to many of these, these really great writers, they're all authentic to who they are Tarantino is authentic to himself, Nolan is authentic to himself. Edgar Wright is authentic to himself, Eric Roth is they're very authentic to their, where it's coming from. And that's something so hard to grasp when you're younger, when you're starting out. They're like, No, no, I have to try to be someone else. That's successful. Michael, No, the thing that makes you successful is being you. And it's scary and terrifying to be you in the in the world as the Joker, as the Joker showed us.

Kim Hudson 28:15
Yeah, yeah. You know, one of the things the screenwriting advice that it really bothers me is that you need to have constant crisis that you have to have ever bigger obstacles to overcome. And people think that it's not an interesting story, if you're not constantly showing this, this fear. And really, this inward story is the quest for love. And love is not always you euphoria you like there's heartbreak, and there's all these things, but you fall in deeper into them. These are not obstacles to overcome, except for things that you need to explore. You know, like, you don't fight back and push away, you actually go, Okay, I'm curious about that. And, and the screen should spend time looking at a person's face and figuring out, you know, are they are they wandering in the wilderness? Are they giving up the old belief making room for something new, you know, like, these things are the challenge and we want to see people feeling joy and and finding their moment. And, you know, it's like about a boy when he stands on the stage and, you know, Little Miss Sunshine when the whole family gets up there because Gladys, I think yesterday, she wants to do a strip song. There's, you know, it's so good. It's and it has nothing to do with conquering some sort of, you know, or achieving a goal. It's about being in the moment and feeling passion and standing up for something.

Alex Ferrari 29:48
Well, it's a story is about conflict, but it doesn't have to be external conflict, it could be internal conflict, internal journey that has to go through and there is, I mean, so if we analyze Is it I know what you were saying like you have to have conflict all the time. Well, interesting situations happen when there is a barrier to break through. So if you don't have a barrier to break through, and that could be an internal barrier, it absolutely could be an internal barrier, we look at Little Miss Sunshine. As such a great movie I have to watch that, again, is actually I might, I talked about, I was talking about my first kind of watch live as such, I don't remember it as well as I remember the ending. Oh, good. But yeah, but that was there was some external conflict there, if I remember correctly, but it was truly about her and her journey to, to express who she truly was as insane as that.

Kim Hudson 30:40
And also, it was about the dad, who had this belief that he had to be conquering the outside world. And when he was finally authentic, in his love for his daughter, he was humanized, he brought his whole family together. And that turned out to be way more important than anything else he was trying to do.

Alex Ferrari 31:00
Which is the moral of that story is, is that when you are able to touch the inner world, and be authentic to yourself, I mean, it's funny, because I always tell this joke is like, as you get older, you give less of a crap about what other people think, like, when you're younger, you were like, Oh, my God, what is? What is anyone gonna think? Like, my daughters are terrified of what I do in public. And I'm like, Oh, that's so much fun. So I try to embarrass them as much as possible. But as you get older, you know, when you get to the 70s 80s, and you see the old man without a shirt on, in his flip flops, and his long and his underwear going out to get the get the mail, and he doesn't care at all. That's the other extreme of that scenario. He is arguably very authentic to who he is. Yes, right.

Kim Hudson 31:48
Wrong. And he's really what really matters.

Alex Ferrari 31:52
In his world, he his mask is gone. He I mean, this is an extreme version, but his mask is gone. And, and you know, all the stuff that we put on like the suits or the armor, if you will, to go out He is literally out there.

Kim Hudson 32:10
Yeah, there's no and why world? He's, yeah, in my role, he's a chrome. He's the one that's like showing us that really, does that matter. And, you know, like, really, you know, think about what you're thinking matters so much. And know that you could just be free and everything is connected.

Alex Ferrari 32:28
So there's, there's certain characters like I know you mentioned in your book like The whore and the verb, like the app, the virgin virgin and the femme fatale How can you like when I was thinking of like Pretty Woman is pretty woman an example this? Is their versions of that in Pretty Woman? Or is it very similar to just a hero's journey?

Kim Hudson 32:50
Oh, I think pretty woman is is a very much a virgin story. Okay. She she believes she's only worthy of bones. And then through this sexual experience, she discovers that she has a talent for business. And, and she's interested in something and she wants more for herself butterfly. So it's, to me it's absolutely a virgin story. And really, the only the shadow side of the Virgin is when she herself becomes disconnected from her value. That's, that's what the horror is basically, where she has lost her sense that she is intrinsically worthy of love. And so then she doesn't take care of herself in the world. And it's, it's, again, it's an internal mentality that that reflects, in the way she's presenting herself. And sometimes, it's because the environment has so consistently shown she's of no value that it sinks in. And that disconnection needs to be reversed and turned into reconnection. Well, I was just gonna say it's the same for the femme Patel, in that, if that's the, that's the second journey of the feminine, where she needs to cross the distance between herself and another person. And she's lost herself. She's manipulating another person in order to have power in the world. Whereas she hasn't recognized that she has her own type of power, and that she needs to bring that into your consciousness. And then she can exist in the world.

Alex Ferrari 34:31
So like a fatal attraction. So like a fatal attraction, let's say, or basic instinct. Those two characters don't realize that there used femininity, or Double Indemnity or duress to kill or any of these, these kinds of these kinds of characters who are using manipulation, using their sexuality using other things to manipulate people because they have not again gone inward, to understand and something happened to them and try elderhood something happened to them in the world, that that that story, that's the narrative that they've built up to, like, I've got to be this way to survive in the world is that a kind of

Kim Hudson 35:09
And it's, and what it's done is that it's caused them to disconnect from the fact that they actually are powerful, that they have their own, you know, their own sense of love for themselves. And that could be enough. And that's what the story has to do is not get them to, like, get some survival power, it's more like, they need some love power, like they need to bring that back to themselves. And then they actually can cross from being the shadow side of the feminine to the light side of the feminine.

Alex Ferrari 35:41
It's really It's, I mean, I feel like this conversation is a therapy session for everyone listening because it's like, really, you started to like, you're like, we're doing inner work today, guys. We're doing some inner work. People are gonna walk out of this listening to this, Jesus, man, I gotta, I gotta touch my authentic self, I gotta go inward. I gotta, I gotta go into that cave inside of me and fight the dragon to get through to get to the treasure to get it out into the world.

Kim Hudson 36:09
Yes, you know, my workshops people write to me, and they say later, like, you know, I, they don't have, they say they don't have writer's block anymore. Because between the hero and the journey, there's always some structure to help them move forward. But the biggest thing is, they recognize it in their life. They'll suddenly go, Oh, my God, I'm wandering in the wilderness. I have people really change their lives. Like, and write to me. I was like, Okay, well, that's on you.

Alex Ferrari 36:36
I'm not just talking about movies here. I'm just about movies and stories. That's it, if you I'm not a therapist, but you know, a lot of the things that we're talking about is, I mean, a good story is an analogy for life. And, and this inner story, which is why I so find this this concept, so fascinating. I mean, I've done 800 episodes, on both of my shows over 800 episodes. And I've never had this conversation with every single great story guru screenwriter, you can imagine. No one's ever had never come up, never approached story in this way before. And it's that's what's so fascinating about this conversation for me, because it is something that's just not talked about, it is not talked about it is not it is not put out into the screenwriting universe. It is it's, you know, the hero's journey. We're good. Chris and Joseph Campbell have done a fantastic job. Right, we are between Star Wars and with Joseph Campbell what Chris Vogler did. I mean, the hero's journey is everywhere. And I saved the cat and all this stuff, but this inner journey is interesting. What other movies that can you come up with? That are great examples, because I want the audience to really kind of have reference points.

Kim Hudson 37:53
Okay, so JoJo rabbit that's got the obvious secret world in it, and he's fighting. He's trying to conform to the Nazi ideal and it's just eventually not working for him, he changes his clothing we can we can see that stress is the part where he gets back to his mother and family. So that's one coda, you know, I that was just fabulous. Her dependent world is like, her non hearing family needs her. And yet it's contrary to what she needs to do for herself. So that was a great one. Oh, good luck to you, Leo grants. Did you see that one? I did not see that one. on Netflix. It's it's new. And it's Emma Thompson, who hires a male prostitute to help her however, you know, with an awakening, it's really good. And it does follow the beats their secret world is in that hotel room. The wife where she her secret world is that she's a ghost writer for her husband. And the coming the clashing of the two worlds is at the very beginning where she has to be the dutiful wife when she her work is actually getting the Nobel Prize. And that causes this. You know, it's a fabulous, fabulous story. There's so many Brittany runs a marathon ladybirds and education.

Alex Ferrari 39:15
Just want you said black swan as well.

Kim Hudson 39:18
Black Swan definitely carry. There's one called love, honor and obey which I there's another one that I never watched Elliott group at brain dead said watch this. And I was like, okay, and I watched like button. It's about it's about a home invasion. And, and this couple that gets brutalized. But anyway, I've watched it for five minutes, and I turned it off. And then I was like, I am a professional. So I turned it back on

Alex Ferrari 39:44
There's a story. As a director, there's lights that come on.

Kim Hudson 39:48
Yeah. Yes. And I tell you, it's a black. It's sort of a black comedy and, and it's about a woman who is forced to recognize what she's accepting from her husband. I don't want give away too much, but it is a fantastic movie.

Alex Ferrari 40:03
Sleeping with the Enemy remember the sleeping with the enemy?

Kim Hudson 40:07
Which was a long time ago. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 40:11
It just came to my head is like maybe that's one as well.

Kim Hudson 40:15
Yeah. Well, I mean, it doesn't make sense that there's a lot of inner work beliefs that need to be let go to get away. Right, that kind of thing. Virgin Suicides that's another one where the the mother has been so oppressive that they can't move forward. The shape of water is a great one. Yeah, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 40:39
Fascinating that there's so many. There's so many examples. Like you're saying that's lala land. Oh, god. Yeah. Lala Land as well. Yeah.

Kim Hudson 40:49
Trying to get her inner talent into the world.

Alex Ferrari 40:51
It's so. So there's been so many examples that have been under our nose, but no one's really ever called it out. Before like, Yeah, this is yeah, this is the story, guys.

Kim Hudson 41:01
Yes, yeah, the pattern hasn't been described. But people, you see the theory of archetypes is that it's in our unconscious, that it's there for us to help navigate through life. And Joseph Campbell made one visible. So it's a lot more you can get to it. And I made another one visible. So you know, and there's in my mind, there's four more. So I'm working on those.

Alex Ferrari 41:23
Or you're working on the other? You're working on the other ones? Yeah, yeah.

Kim Hudson 41:27
My next one will be the how to cross the distance between you and somebody who has taught you. The archetypes of marriage really?

Alex Ferrari 41:37
Oh, yeah. I have been married for a long time I understand. There's, there's something that the title of your book mentioned sexual awakenings. And this is something I just wanted to kind of touch on. Because those films, sometimes they're done perfectly and really well. But sometimes they're not. They're approached at, you know, there's a male energy or, or, you know, it's, it's not done correctly. So can you give me an example of a good one, and a bad one, and the reason why it's good, and the reason why it's bad if you can?

Kim Hudson 42:14
Well, the 40 year old virgin, actually is a great example of delayed and yeah, and then that final moment of awakening, it's and it's it actually follows all the beads. Another one that I've always loved as new Waterford girl, it's a Canadian film. And, yeah, she lives in a small town in Nova Scotia where you're very limited, and you should always stay on the island and she wants to be an artist. So She fakes a pregnancy, she notices that pregnant girls get sent away. And so she fakes a pregnancy. And it's about her sexual awakening and her talent awakening and the whole community going crazy. It's a really funny, really good movie. Yeah, so once we're Brokeback Mountain, another one where it's, you know, secret world and their clash and what society expects from you and, and never being able to overcome it. It's a very beautifully done sexual awakening. You know, I don't really pay attention to the ones that are done really badly. It's like porn to me.

Alex Ferrari 43:30
So porn, not a good example.

Kim Hudson 43:32
You know what I would actually say there's, there's female porn and there's male porn, apparently. And male porn is just really about how can I get some excitement? Like it's just goal oriented? Sure. Which is, is not the same as a sexual awakening to me and sexual awakening is this recognition that we have the power within us for great joy?

Alex Ferrari 43:54
That's the Yeah, we'll leave it there. But I'm just trying to think of in my head of like, bad ones, and I'm like, if they're bad, they're generally sophomore. Sophomore. If it's done incorrectly, that's basically so if you see softcore porn, that's probably not the

Kim Hudson 44:15
Right it's not a virgins journey. But I but I liked they probably been male gaze do.

Alex Ferrari 44:19
Exactly. But I'd like I like that you use a 40 year old virgin because that's a great example of a sexual awakening in a very obviously comedic way. But it was, it was a 40 year old virgin and all that stuff. That's to happen. And Judd Apatow does have has he touches on it even in his comedies. He touches on inner stuff funny people and a couple of his other films. Touch on the inner Yeah, in this and his work I've noticed even while they're being silly. Yeah, yeah. So you choosing her light I I saw that term in the book, what does that mean? Choosing the light choosing her light.

Kim Hudson 45:06
You know, this is saying that it doesn't really matter until it changes within her own heart. So a person like Janis Joplin, you can have all of the glory. But until you actually decide that you are intrinsically valuable, and that you have the right to take up some space in the world and shine your light, you know, the, it doesn't really affect your happiness. And it's, it's starts with the individual person, you need to find your happiness and find your connection. And then like a drop of water, it starts to spread out to other people. So that beak chooses her light shows that it's, it's not about other people saying, Oh, wow, you're amazing. It's about you deciding that you are in value, and really getting that sense of self esteem.

Alex Ferrari 45:56
So that's interesting, because in, in Hollywood, you're surrounded by people going, you're great. You're beautiful, you're great. And yet, we've all seen examples of people who were giant stars, who either sabotage themselves or god forbid, you know, took their life and they just couldn't choose their light that couldn't allow it to for whatever reason, it's some pre built glass ceiling that they put in their heads. Like, I'm not worth this. You know, I mean, John Belushi comes to mind, you know, who number one album, number one show, number one movie in the world? And he was depressed, his auto.

Kim Hudson 46:40
Right! Right. And the guy that was in Mork and Mindy,

Alex Ferrari 46:43
Oh, well, Robin Williams, Robert Robin Williams. I mean, he, he had an illness. So there was a mental, there was a degenerative degenerative thing that happened to his brain that caused him to do that. But But yeah, but many of these, you know, and we've seen it, I mean, people.

Kim Hudson 47:00
So you know, what you were saying there is actually why that beat gives up what kept her stuck, is so important. Because if you don't give up the old belief that told you, you had to conform to that dependent world, then you have this constant dissidents that you're behaving in a way that's not in alignment with one of your, your beliefs. And that will always throw you off track, you'll always try and go back to be in alignment with that. So the Virgin's journey notes that you have to have a moment where you consciously reflect and say, you know, what, I don't actually still have to believe that in might have served me in the past. But now's the time to cue the music, let it go.

Alex Ferrari 47:45
I think, for us it's so true, because there are those limiting beliefs that we all live in now we're getting into the psychology and the youngin aspect of this, of this, of this journey. But if you are told You're not worth it, you're not that you could be the most beautiful human being on the planet. gorgeous, talented. And we've seen these people, we've seen these people self destruct in front of our eyes. And in Nicole Smith, I remember I mean, she had everything. And she, she did not feel worthy of this fame and accurate at that. She just couldn't deal with it. And I mean, whatever happened happened to her, of course. And Marilyn and woman rose a little different. Yeah. But, but there's just like, there's,

Kim Hudson 48:35
There was an element

Alex Ferrari 48:37
She was Norma Jean. She was still she in her head. She was Norma Jean. She wasn't Marilyn Monroe. And to live up I can't even imagine trying to live up to being Marilyn Monroe when she was. I mean, she was she was put up there as the perfection of the female species, I mean, at the time, right? Right, right, who can live who can live with that kind of pressure. So it too, you can break through those own limiting beliefs, or stories that you're telling yourself, you doesn't matter what kind of success you have. If you can't find that light within you, you can't go forward.

Kim Hudson 49:17
Exactly. And you know, people try and tell the story about becoming your authentic self. And they just present obstacles. And then a light went on, and suddenly they were themselves right and it doesn't read through on the screen. We'd never really break it down and understand that there's a lot of steps. You know, like that you're facing the unknown, you have to cocoon for that. You can't it's too vulnerable to face criticism and you and you have to recognize what your your old belief was so that you can let it go. You have to consciously choose for yourself, that you're choosing your light. It doesn't matter if the rest of the world sees you as bright. You know, like there's all these steps to writing that inner journey that would tend to kind of without a structure, just gloss over it. And then suddenly, she got better.

Alex Ferrari 50:08
She's like, boom, one day, she just found her light. And it's done. And so it's all Yeah, it's there has to be scenes that they are consciously figuring that out in one way, shape, or form. And that's interesting. It's an interesting way to write it is make it interesting when you see that, because it's inner work. So it's hard to put that on the screen. So there has to be yes. How would you? How would you so give me an example?

Kim Hudson 50:31
I don't know if you've ever did you receive ever after? Of course. Yeah. Have you got kids? Yeah. So there's this moment where she's been to the ball, and everything's blown up. And she's just like, okay, it is what it is. I'm just going to work hard again. And she's talking to her stepmother. And she says, was there ever a moment that you felt love for me because you're the only mother I've ever known. And her stepmother says, hook it up, I feel love for a pebble in my shoe. And then see, Drew Barrymore's just okay. I accept that. I've been trying to find love from somebody who will never love me. And, and just in a look, she gives up what was keeping her stuck. She's She boldly asked the question, she got the answer, and she accepts it. And so a whole beat done in just a look.

Alex Ferrari 51:24
That's really interesting. That's really you're absolutely right. How many times have you gone to your parents looking for something or gone to a spouse or, or a girlfriend or boyfriend looking for something that they're just not going to give you ever? Yeah. And, and then you go, Oh, okay. I get it. Now. I need to move on. It's okay. Now. Thank you for letting me off the hook.

Kim Hudson 51:48
Exactly.

Alex Ferrari 51:49
Another movie came to mind and chanted. Oh, yeah, that one is that that's a if you start looking at that journey, it's very inward, like at first she's a cartoon princess, and has to stick with in the world of being a princess. And slowly, she starts to realize no, I'm, I'm worth it. I'm not just I'm, I'm a human being and I want to go do this. And I want to go to that. And she comes, she awakens within herself.

Kim Hudson 52:16
I have a full range of feelings. And I want all of that authenticity to be in the world. Yeah. And boy, the aim. Yeah. She just plays it so deeply. You know, somebody could have played that very sufficiently superficially. But she got the whole version, you know. And if the actor gets it in their heart, it just flashes onto the screen. It's really quite something.

Alex Ferrari 52:41
She should have gotten an Oscar for that performance. She was so good. And that she's, she's amazing actress, but that she is. She's perfect. Now tell me about your where can people find your book and the work that you're doing?

Kim Hudson 52:57
It's on Amazon, Amazon, both all kinds. It just recently got released? I think so. That's nice. Yeah, that's true. Michael, we see productions, and

Alex Ferrari 53:12
Your website and find you and your story

Kim Hudson 53:15
Storyarchetypes.com is where my website is.

Alex Ferrari 53:20
Good URL. That's a good URL to have. And I'm gonna ask you a few questions. I asked all of my guests. What advice would you give a screenwriter trying to break into the business today?

Kim Hudson 53:29
We've been talking about be authentic.

Alex Ferrari 53:36
Yeah. Be authentic. Embrace your light, is what you're saying. Now what lesson took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Kim Hudson 53:52
Let it go. Have a friend who's a psychic who says she has never met somebody who hangs on to their pain so long? afraid this is my life lesson. Fair enough, gives up what kept her stuck.

Alex Ferrari 54:08
And three of your favorite films of all time.

Kim Hudson 54:11
Oh, okay. shockula, enchanted. And I'm gonna have to say Joker, whoa, parasite. They're both amazing. They're all virgin stories.

Alex Ferrari 54:24
What an amazing collection of films. Great, great collection. It has been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for putting this out in the world. And I'm gonna do my darndest to get this information out to the screenwriting public because it's something that's just not talked about enough. And I think it's a new way to approach story. And one last question. Can you have the hero journey and the virgins journey overlap each other in the same story?

Kim Hudson 54:55
Yes. As a matter of fact, it's not a person It's an energy and that energy they can, the hero or the Virgin energy can pass through the same person. But if you want an example, just if you were trying to like screenwriting figure out, how do I put the two together and have the stories work, frozen, the two characters Anna and Elsa, and as a hero, Alice's a virgin, and they just you've watched them connect with each other, though, there are stages there, the rescue greet order. That's a place where the hero crosses over with the Virgin story.

Alex Ferrari 55:34
So is does it have to be two characters? Or can this be in the one can this be in one character? And the two both?

Kim Hudson 55:41
It can be both. Yeah. So there's tons where, where the well, ever after she saves herself, the original writing of the pretty woman apparently she saved yourself in the end. And then he came back. They rewrote that. But there's lots. Yeah. So you definitely in and we'll know this in our own lives, that you can be the hero in your own life. And you definitely need to be in charge of your own versions journey.

Alex Ferrari 56:13
We will leave it at that. Kim, thank you so much for being on the show. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you and thank you again for the work that you're doing. Appreciate you.

Kim Hudson 56:21
You're welcome. Thanks for having me. This is lovely.

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IFH 708: Writing the INSANE World of Machette with Alvaro Rodriguez

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Alex Ferrari 0:18
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:56
Joining me tonight is Alvaro Rodriguez. Alvaro is a screenwriter who is currently working on season two of from dusk till dawn the series. His career in film actually began when he began riffing on a Spanish guitar for the heroes musical theme and his cousin Robert Rodriguez debut film airmail Yachi, which began a collaboration that has lasted over two decades. Alvaro, how are you sir?

Alvaro Rodriguez 2:01
I'm doing great. How are you?

Dave Bullis 2:04
Pretty good. So the weather in PA has gotten a lot better over the past few days.

Alvaro Rodriguez 2:08
That's good st here in Austin.

Dave Bullis 2:10
Oh, nice. You know, I actually want to talk to you about Austin, before I get to that. So could you give us a little more detail about your background? You know, and how, you know, every how you got started in the film business?

Alvaro Rodriguez 2:23
Sure. Well, you know, I grew up with a love for movies. And I grew up with a love for reading, writing, and always wanted to be a novelist. And would, you know, say, Well, I know, it's a hard road to try to to do. And, you know, I probably end up being a teacher, which I was for a time. But I want to, you know, keep writing. But I had this cousin Robert, who, you know, when I first remember spending any time with him, we were kids at my grandmother's house and in South Texas sitting in the back of a truck. And he was talking about this new movie that had just come out, which she hadn't seen yet, but seemed to know everything about how the director had done this shot and how this was done, and all that stuff. And my job was just on the floor, but out of the truck, because I realized I finally found someone who loved movies, baby boy. And that movie was called The Escape from New York, John Carpenter's. The early 80s. And, and it was just like, you know, a lighted off in my head, I was probably in the fifth grade or so. And I started to write my first little scripts, and written a parody of the TV show Dallas. And just thought, you know, this is great, I'm gonna write scripts, Robert will direct them and the Sister Angela, his older sister, my older cousin, she'll start and then she wanted to be an actress. And it actually did happen. And she, she became an actor, she was in several movies, and including a movie that really well called shorts. So it was it was amazing. It was amazing to see that all finally kind of come come through. But and then, you know, later on, I didn't use it for his first show or anything, like you mentioned. And but after that, we started collaborating on a script together, which never got made cultural death was part which we wrote for an actress that Robert had met, and thought was going to be the next big thing. And she was Salma Hayek and ever since then, I just, you know, was writing on different projects with him, you know, reading themes or dialogue or, or ideas for the movies, like for rooms and road racers, and then later plants, and then the roof shorts and machete together.

Dave Bullis 4:38
So and, you know, where did it you know, well, actually, you know, I'll get to that later from Gustl. Don, because I don't want to get too far ahead. But I mean, that's absolutely amazing, you know, no, you know that you're able to collaborate with a family member. And it was so amazing. He's able to open all these doors for you. And you know, that that mean, you know, and that's, you know, a couple of things I want to touch on. So there's just Really quickly, are you at the South by Southwest festival right now?

Alvaro Rodriguez 5:03
I am did yeah, we're shooting shooting my episode protested on second season second episode right now. And this happened to coincide with Southwest festival. So then able to go and do some screenings and and, you know, networking and stuff like that it's been fantastic.

Dave Bullis 5:25
So are you filming this series in Austin?

Alvaro Rodriguez 5:28
Yeah, the entire show shoots in and around Austin. Robert has his own studio troublemaking Studios, where he shot many of the films. And here in Austin, which is right next to Austin Studios, where we also have set and we're shooting in and around town and different locations. Machete was shot entirely here in Austin to on those on those stages, and then around town. So it's amazing. It's amazing to be able to have that kind of those kind of facilities and just a great crew, break people that that, you know, Robert uses, again, and again, on all these different projects. So it makes our TV show look like a like a big feature project.

Dave Bullis 6:19
That's amazing. We would work with the same crew and everything over and over. You know, that is a great benefit. And also, it's great that, you know, he has a studio right there in Austin. You know, the reason I asked where you're shooting was because, you know, with all these film tax credits, and that there's, you know, the debate about you know, do they work? Do they not work? You know, I know, sometimes you get thrown through a loop, you know, we know, like Season One of Banshee was filmed in North South or North Carolina. And season two was actually filming here in Pennsylvania.

Alvaro Rodriguez 6:46
Yeah, probably Austin is Austin has really become over the last couple of decades. Quite a film and television production. You know, this new series on ABC American crime takes place in the best of California that was shot entirely in Austin. Hopefully, they'll be back for season two. And, you know, it's it's really amazing that they're in Austin, you know, it just has developed a really strong reputation for film and television. A lot of people want to be here. We have guys in our, in our cast that are, you know, bought license here. And you know, are and I've heard same stories from other other crew members on other projects that they've worked on. And from other people that, you know, awesome is a place where, you know, actors want to come work there. And because they have such a good time in the city and city is very open to, to all those kinds of things to great creative, creative Nexus here in Austin.

Dave Bullis 7:49
Yeah, I've always heard that. And I've always heard that slogan, Keep Austin weird.

Alvaro Rodriguez 7:53
Yeah. So we're doing our part, we're doing our part to keep it weird.

Dave Bullis 8:01
So what's one of the coolest things that you have seen thus far at the South by Southwest festival?

Alvaro Rodriguez 8:07
Well, last night, I went to a screening that was touted as a 30th I think the 31st anniversary screening, the road warrior with George Miller, director in attendance. And we got to see kind of a sneak after the film of the new Fury Road, the new Mad Max film, we got to see about seven or eight minutes of that. And then a special trailer that was just cut for South by Southwest and Warner Brothers spec a brand new prints of the film. So it just looks absolutely amazing. And of course road warriors such a huge influence on both Robert and myself. And Robert actually got to, to do a, an episode of his series on the overlay called the director's chair for his interviews, different directors. He just aired the latest one a week or so ago with Francis Ford Coppola. And he got to film an episode with George Miller. And, you know, it's just it's just amazing to see, to see something like that in 35 millimeter, I think they said is the only film at South by Southwest that was reading the 35 millimeter on the big screen in in a beautiful theater downtown Austin, the Paramount which is celebrating its 100th anniversary this year. So it's just like, you know, that's, it's a really amazing account of priceless experience to see something like that.

Dave Bullis 9:37
I mean, I know you can't go into detail, but you know, um, you know, what did you think of a couple of minutes of the new, the new Mad Max, you're allowed to say?

Alvaro Rodriguez 9:46
It was amazing. It was really amazing. I mean, it was such a, it was it was such a tease. It was it was like please give us more please give us more.

Alex Ferrari 9:59
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Alvaro Rodriguez 10:09
You know, because it just, it looks beautiful. And I'm Hardy, Tom Hardy, who plays Mad Max with tastic show he's thrown the entire cast. It just has. It looks like a road warrior, you know, turn it up to 11. And you know Thunderdome everything and blast, that's just, I can't wait to see it opens may 15. And it just looks absolutely amazing for fans of that, that kind of film. I can't imagine that anybody's really going to be disappointed. It just didn't look. Looks stellar. I couldn't wait to see it after that case of it last night.

Dave Bullis 10:48
And that's good to hear coming from Nashville fan of the original as well. You know, because, you know, what the, you know, the sort of the trends you see now in film is, you know, there's a lot of remakes. There's a lot of you know, old properties established properties that are getting, you know, made updated, like, you know, a minute where even TV shows, but you know, it's good that there are, you know, personally like 21 Jump Street, I thought that was hilarious. Like, you know what, I mean, I went in there with almost no expectations. And I came out and I said, Wow, that was actually pretty damn good.

Alvaro Rodriguez 11:21
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that's the thing, you know, the remakes and reboots, and reimagining is often get, you know, short shrift, and people say, you know, there's been more well, you know, just because of con voters may True Grit doesn't erase the first film, you know, doesn't erase the original. And a lot of things, you know, writing and entertainment and stories are, it's such a, it's already inherently a system of recycling, you know, that this system of, of taking something old, and giving it a new spin and sunlight. And obviously, you can fall on that as a crutch, but I think we need to have talent. And, and this will sort of, like, make something better, or make something with your own touch. And you have someone like George Miller, who's, you know, at the helm of, of taking Mad Max and doing the reimagining or reboot, or whatever you want to call it. That, you know, you're in the hands of a master. And, and there are so many, you know, it's a whole new generation who weren't able to experience vote order, the first time it came out, and the context in which it came out, you know, in the context in which it came out, it was like this, you know, this post apocalyptic future that we seem to be so close to now. And that's one of the things that, that makes, I think, the movie resonant, and the original again, and giving, giving new ideas for, for what the reboot is going to be, you know, so I have, you know, I don't have the same sort of negative outlook on those kinds of things, I guess, you know, some, some people call things complete che and I say, No, it's not a cliche, it's a universal truth. Just go with that.

Dave Bullis 13:16
Yeah, you know, and I agree with you, bro. You know, sometimes what I seem to see from even my friends is, there's two kinds of attitudes they have, either they go like, they either say, like, we see something like, you know, like a big budget blockbuster, whether it's a superhero movie, or you know, transformers, what have you. They'll say like, you know, if they didn't like it, they'll say, Oh, well, you know, what, what did you expect? They know that blah, blah, blah, you know, or the other one is, it's overrated, or, you know, it's this or that. I mean, it just seems to be like, if they like when someone does try something new. They're sort of like, you know, you do something new. It's almost like there's a trend, you know, in movie reviewers have been like, Oh, my God, why were they doing this? And then, you know, that's where you can say, like, hey, we tried to do something new, and nobody wants to go see it.

Alvaro Rodriguez 14:02
That's true. And there's this thing, you know, and Dessel Don is reimagining as a television series, the reimagining of the movie, and taking that world further, you know, so, in so many ways, you know, we're guilty of it too, but we're trying to do something else with it, you know, we're trying to take it further and, and develop characters bring in new characters that just utilize that world and we have to get the other thing to remember is exactly what you said, this is a this is in so many ways that business, and sometimes it's easier, it's a different, it's an easier sell to sell someone something that they think they already know. And but it's just the now it's it's the same, but it's different. And it's it's that kind of ability to take take something that some people already are familiar with, and give it back to them in a new way. And I think that when when you do that, well, people respond to it. Well, and that was one of the great things about working on the show is that You know, it was very apparent very early on, that everybody involved in the cast and writers and the directors that were brought on board to direct episode, they were all coming to this as a, as a bit of a passion project. Nobody was really there, in my opinion, just kind of picking up the check and you know, walking away from it. Everybody was really invested in, in, in the project. I think he just you get it, you get a sense of that when you watch the stuff. And so, you know, I think that's, that's the best you can hope for this finance for.

Dave Bullis 15:36
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And you I've watched the whole the whole first season. And I can definitely tell you know, you have both of the main of the gecko brothers. They both were one looks like Clooney, one looks like Tarantino, I thought I mean, that was excellent casting, by the way. I was like, Well, I mean, I could see, you know, the, the, you know, finding someone looks like Tarantino, he has a unique look. So I was like, Man, that was it must have been either the easiest casting session ever, were the hardest casting session ever. Because, you know, I mean, either you have to look through a ton of headshots or like, only to get, you know, to closely resemble, you know, actors who submitted. And you know, and when I watched them, I watched it, you know, especially the first couple episodes, it takes place, you know, that same little convenience store with the sheriff. And, you know, and, you know, it was, you know, very well done. And, and then there's also, you know, for those who haven't seen it, there's also a whole layer that you've added to the TV show as well.

Alvaro Rodriguez 16:33
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, an eye opening in that opening episode, which is very based on the first five or 10 minutes of the film. In the film, a character from Texas Ranger Oh, McGraw's play by Michael Parkes, and he gets killed off in that first 10 minutes of come. And we had, you know, Don Johnson playing the character on our show, you know, he's a tremendous actor in it to begin with, but we were going to extend his role so that even though his character died in the first episode, he was in flashbacks for the next few episodes. And you got to see more of that character. And that's a lot of the fun of the project like this, too, is that it exists in this special, you know, world called the Tarantino universe, you know, they guarantee universe you know, or McGraw shows up and planet chair or McGraw shows up in, in other other Tarantino things. So you've got this kind of continuity of story and things like that these characters just kind of show up in these different Tarantino kind of related things. And so, it's, it's amazing to, to have a small part in that, in that world.

Dave Bullis 17:46
Yeah, and I think you've done a phenomenal job. You know, I, you know, I, when I first heard about, you know, this was on series, I, I was like, it was just gonna be a continuation, you know, this is gonna be a prequel. And then I watched it, I was like, Oh, wow, it's really interesting what they've done here. And they sort of

Alvaro Rodriguez 18:05
I was just gonna say, back in the day, you know, back in the late 90s, I actually had Robert was out out in Japan promoting a film he did call the faculty and we were messaging each other online. And he said, you know, dimension there, Max, we're interested in doing a couple of sequels decimal dot, probably will be straight to video and shot back to back and asked me if I had any ideas. And so I pitched an idea for basically it's sort of spaghetti western prequel to decimal gone, which we ended up making as decimals on three, the hangman's daughter, with Michael parks playing a real real life character named Ambrose Bierce, who disappeared in Mexico around the time of the Mexican Revolution. And so, it was great to have already kind of had the background of doing research the story also sort of the genesis of some tiny Danica pandamonium character played by Salma Hayek and original film, and cat came up with this different backstory for her and researching all the sorts of Mesoamerican mythologies of an aspect in mind things and special ideas about what these these creatures were, that inhabit the bordello south of the border. And so coming to the show, again, it was like taking some of the some of those same ideas going so much further with Herman and creating, you know, more backstory and more more, sort of lines of story and plot and character arcs and all that kind of stuff. That really was respond to work with, and coming up with ideas for for for the season, especially since you know, after the first season, the movie is over. We kind of took that movie and turned it into 10 cups of television. Obviously with a lot of new material. A lot of new characters added the character that will move all around the place

Alex Ferrari 19:59
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Alvaro Rodriguez 20:09
Just one to three characters that Cheech Bernie plays in the film, Carlos, in the movie is new, there's so much of a character in our show cause to become a main, a huge part of the show, a big anchor for the show. And now it's easy to like, you know, the world is open again. And so to be able to create the season March, you know, that takes us completely out of the movie. Now, the following these characters and allowing the stories and storylines and arcs to grow from characters, instead of just following what we had already seen, was a great challenge. And also just a great opportunity to try to do something interesting and

Dave Bullis 20:53
Just allow for a win when you're, you know, working together, imagine, you know, before each season, you know, you and all the other writers are in the room together, you know, how much how much outline do you do before you actually all get started writing your own episodes,

Alvaro Rodriguez 20:53
It was it was really kind of an amazing process, we had had kind of an eight week, stretch last summer, to just talk out where we were going. And one of the one of the I think really invaluable things that we did was, we brought in each of the main therapists, each of the main actors in one at a time to come into the room and talk about their character. Tell me and tell me what you thought about season one? How do you feel your character feels at the end of season one? How does your character feel about other characters on the show? What did you like about season one? What did you not like about season? Two differently? What kinds of things you know, would you like to see your character doing and stuff like that, and that really kind of gave us a lot of ideas. And we started out with with, with some ideas about where we thought we would go in season. But, you know, it was a it was a really evolutionary process and a really collaborative process. I think that was that was amazing. And, and then as far as outlining, now, there's so much of, you know, like, they say, so much of writing is rewriting so much for writing, it's also a prewriting process, before the scripts of, you know, writing outlines, having them, you know, brought to the table having them torn apart and rebuilt, you know, ideas that we had for a big finale that that might get just pushed, you know, further or closer to, you know, before the end of the season. So we can even go further from the big idea that we had, and all those kinds of things, you know, it's a, it really is sort of, you know, nothing is written in stone sort of thing as we're in that process. And things are very fluid and flexible, with the, with the idea of being open to open to trying to collaboratively and individually, Bring, bring your A game and keep constantly trying to challenge ourselves to make things better. One of the things our share winner has kind of instilled in all of us, this idea of, you know, our shareholders, depending FroKnowsPhoto has worked on several shows most of us, you know, great record and television. And one of the things, you know, he would say is if someone brought an idea that everybody thought, hey, that's a really good, that's a really good idea of characters, you know, do that, let's you look and earn it, you know, let's not try to put a pin over here and say, by this time this has to happen. But let's really see if we can get our characters to that point, organically through the characters themselves. Getting to that, to that good idea, you know, so it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a real challenge. And, and but, you know, it feels like, you know, we're all working together to do to try to do that.

Dave Bullis 23:57
And, you know, it's really great to have a showrunner, you know, with a lot of experience, you know, to actually sort of guide it along. I mean, you know, I've actually talked to other writers or other shows, and they've mentioned how important that person can be because, you know, like, you just said, you know, people have to earn it. And you can't sort of force it just because, hey, it's a cool idea.

Alvaro Rodriguez 24:18
Right! Yeah, no, absolutely. And that, and that, I think that spirit really continues on you. And as we're shooting an episode, you know, we come up with an idea, even as we're shooting and say, you know, maybe this needs to happen. Well, it's, you know, that's not trying to force it, let's, let's really try to find a way to make it to make it seem like a natural organic part of the story. And so, you know, there's that and we're just really, really fortunate and, you know, to creative these populations are great, great crew, great actors, great directors, photography and great directors on our episodes, to really kind of I try to, you know, to do the best that we can with, with, with ideas and with the scripts and, and, you know, try to put out something that people will will be intrigued by and want to keep watching.

Dave Bullis 25:14
So, you know, allroad now that you have, you know, you you, have you episode everything from the writers meeting, you know, how do you personally sit down to write? I mean, do you? So, I mean, I know, you've probably have a couple of points, and a couple of things that you have to incorporate in the episode. But do you? Do you sort of break it out into the eight parts, like the age structure theory? Or do you just do the traditional three act, or do you not do any of that and just go go for it in,

Alvaro Rodriguez 25:43
Oh, you know, we definitely stick to a structure, you know, on our show, we kind of go with what we, you know, presented a five act structure. And, and the outline will reflect the ACT breaks, and, you know, sometimes there's a fluid and those change, always try to have a really good strong act out. And then a strong Act in, you know, in between the breaks and stuff like that. So, you know, the outline process is fairly rigorous, and, and it's really as detailed as we can possibly make it. And then other things, there's leftist, you know, with our terminology and the writers opportunity to, you know, kind of, when you're writing the script, to actually find something that, you know, will, will not maybe not have been in the outline, or not as clear in the outline, that suddenly, in the writing of the of the script itself, you know, but, as far as the writing process, you know, it's, it's a lot of crying a lot of procrastination, a lot of, you know, suicidal thoughts, and then somehow putting together something that, that, that, you know, it's going to be challenged again, you know, and I think that's, in a lot of ways, that's a, that's a liberating part of the thing too, you know, realizing that, that, you know, it's our duty to try to give the best that we can, but realize that, you know, it's always going to be improved upon, it's really always going to, it's still a valuable thing, and up to the moment, that's the issue. Because there are things that happen. And new ideas that come in one of the one of the great things about this particular season is that we were able to have, you know, all of our scripts written before we actually started shooting. And so that allowed, you know, for a certain amount of, you know, being able to go over the entirety of the season, and the scripts, and really try to, you know, make sure all the setups were set up, and all the payoffs are paid off, you know, and, and everything got hit. So it, it you know, it sets the bar pretty high. So hopefully, we can, we can, we can make that jump.

Dave Bullis 28:06
So, you know, as your writing style sort of changed over the years, you know, from, you know, obviously was within your IMDB and your your first actual writing credit is, you know, from dusk till dawn three Hangman's daughter. So when you move back to where you are now, has your wedding sort of process changed a lot.

Alvaro Rodriguez 28:28
I think the process has probably changed a bit. And I think that the style has probably changed. And I remember back to that time, you know, one of the executives who was at the mansion at the time, said, you know, your script is great, and it reads almost like a novel. And I realized that I was, you know, I really wasn't trained as a screenwriter, a lot of this was, you know, kind of learning by doing. I didn't, I never had taken any kind of screenwriting classes or anything like that, and didn't go to school. I was an English major. But I had a lot of background and both, I had three semesters of creative writing as an undergraduate in poetry of all things. And then I was also an entertainment journalist for the student newspaper, it was just an entertainment editor. And, you know, and had done some new stuff, too. I was working in newspaper while I was writing vessel, Dawn three. And it felt like, you know, those things, which I thought of this happen, were actually strong primers for screenwriting. Because in screenwriting, it's so much about the essence of things, and such a skeletal structure that the poetry lent lends itself to that because in poetry so many times you're trying to break, you know, sensations and images and emotions in a reader in a few words as possible, creating these images in as few words as possible. And in journalism, you know, it's kind of this this just the facts, ma'am, kind of reporting, you know, which also lends itself to screenwriting. So those were those were, those were actually powerful, you know, sort of setup tools for me

Alex Ferrari 29:59
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Alvaro Rodriguez 30:09
But, you know, even then I feel like, like I learned to kind of find my voice, I think my voice was, was there in that in the first strip in payments, or wasn't the first group that written this first group that got made, and to kind of hone that down and keep trying to, you know, to, to convey as much information as possible in the most economical way possible. And, and try to really find the power of the language, in order to convey in the readers minds, that might be a reader picking up the script, and is the one who's going to pass it on to the next guy are not, or to actually have a shooting script and have, you know, the director read this and say, you know, this is how we're going to do this, or the director, photography resistance, they just have, it's going to be shot without using, you know, without telling them exactly what they're going to do, but just to be able to sort of suss that out for themselves in the script that you've written. So yeah, I think it's definitely evolved to use that word and as part of the process, and, you know, I hope that I can keep, you know, keep evolving, keep getting better at what I'm doing.

Dave Bullis 31:29
And, you know, I mean, it's, it's amazing that, you know, you always, you know, finding new ways to improve. You know, I've noticed that too, you know, you touched on something about, you know, you said the script read read like a novel. You know, as I as I do more screenwriting as well. And even read scripts, I've realized, I've finally realized now that actually reading screenplays that have either been produced or not produced, but have been like, you know, either bought or optioned, really gives you gives you a view into that world that, you know, any screenwriting guru or whatever can't give you if you know what I mean?

Alvaro Rodriguez 32:06
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think that's the thing too, I spent, I spent a long time once I started really writing and you know, hanging his daughter, and after that, of amassing a library of anything I thought was useful. But among those, you know, practically every book on screenwriting ever written, and I was always trying to find, you know, I was always trying to find shortcuts, maybe not the right word, but but sort of techniques or ideas of things that could help me, you know, in the process, and the problem with that sometimes, and it was for me was that, you know, it can become a crutch, it can actually become kind of a stifling, habit stifling. And when I was writing, and I would be like, you know, I don't know what I'm gonna do next. But I know the answer is probably on the shelf over here somewhere or these shelves, or this whole, you know, this room of books. And, and I think that the more that the more more that you actually do in the process, the more that you're actually involved in the writing process, the less that you feel like you need those kinds of things, because you've already sort of, you've made them a part of yourself, their inherent in your own sensibilities, because you've been a reader your whole life, you've read, you read scripts, or you've read novels, you've seen movies, you understand the language of film, you understand the language of screenwriting. And, and I think you're sort of getting to that point where I was kind of using the example of when I was an undergraduate, when I first got to the University of Texas, I tested out of 16 hours of Spanish, you know, and I never had to take like, I never had to take Spanish at the college level. And I felt like I never really got as intensive training in Spanish as I could have. And it wasn't until years and years later, I was finally like reading books in Spanish and realizing I wasn't translating into English in my head, as I was reading, I was just understanding. And I think it's the same thing with with the writing, it's like I, I already had the language of screenwriting, and the language of cinema in my brain, and I just needed to kind of tap into it and realize that all of these things are many of them. Were already inherently a part of my, my own sensibility.

Dave Bullis 34:24
Yeah, and, you know, I realized it too, is that when you, you know, sort of, when you start doing it, and you know, doing it as the most important part when you start getting in there and actually writing and, you know, being resistance and, and, and, you know, you start to realize you don't need those signposts as much, you know what I mean? So, you know, you I'm sure you've heard of, like, you know, there's certain rules like, Oh, by page 17, this has to happen. And, you know, and you realize that, you know, those guideposts aren't like definitive rules. They're just, you know, either, I guess you could say principles or you know, someone was just like, hey, Look, I noticed that on page 17 of these scripts this happened. So therefore, here's the rule.

Alvaro Rodriguez 35:04
Right! Well, I mean, that's the thing. I mean, I did, I did take workshops later on, especially like, I didn't save the cat workshop here in Austin with Luke Snyder when he was when he was still alive. And, and it was, it was, it was the first screenwriting workshop I'd ever done. And it was so amazing to me, because what Blake had done in his broken in the workshop was to take, you know, the sort of the sort of 15 beach, and how to show you how, you know, if you could look at drawers, and you could look at, you know, a comedy, and you could look at a horror film, you could look at it, whatever genre it was, you could always sort of find these sort of 15 things in it. And the way that he described them, this is, you know, it's like the casual Fridays version of the, you know, story or blue hunter or whatever, that, that it was, it was so accessible, you know, and, but I think, think about those things you choose that you really kind of have to take them as, as a descriptive and not prescriptive, you know, it's describing a thing that already exists. And when you, you can definitely apply them, and they can help you in structure. But, but don't be so confined to, to a page number or anything like that, just like, just know that this is sort of the way stories have been told throughout time. That's why I feel like so much of it is inherent, it's not telling you stuff that you already know, but putting it in the language that makes it sort of accessible and easy to understand, you know, so I think, I think all those things are valuable, I don't discount them in any way, shape, or form. But I think that you realize that, you know, it's kind of telling you things that you sort of already intrinsically know, and maybe have just not thought of in those terms before gives you gives you a terminology, it gives you a way to name the parts of the body of your story. And, and realize, hey, you know, the knee bones connected to the shin bone, and that, that's that that's the way that the body works. That's the way story word. And if you you know, if you put these pieces together, and realize that there's a framework, then you can kind of, you know, mess around with that and switch things around and, and surprise yourself, even with the hopes that that that's going to surprise the reader and surprise your audience. And I think the other thing is to not discount at all the value of actually working with actors, and actually being involved in the process. So that, you know, only for me, I was always kind of describing myself as a guy chained to the laptop in the dungeon. And these are all just the voices in my head I was writing out. But when you actually, you know, onset. We're out actors like Don Johnson, or Robert De Niro and machete, you know, is doing lines to route and bringing in his own sensibilities to them and stuff like that. It's like, it opens up, you know, it's like, we're on the chakra level. He was just like, shut up, your mind explodes, you reached the crown, and you've reached Nirvana when someone like Robert De Niro is doing your dialogue, and bringing this whole other sensibility to it, but you didn't see, even as you were writing it, that can influence the way that you approach writing, in poetry and dollar approach writing scene or whatever it happens to be, you know what I mean?

Dave Bullis 38:22
Oh, yeah, it's a very good point. Um, you know, sometimes, I'll sit in with script readings. So, you know, I, I actually, I co founded a writers group two years ago, and we still meet, you know, we meet twice a month. And, you know, when everyone's done, we actually staged readings, especially with good actors, and have just ever, you know, reading in a conference room altogether. And, you know, and it's, you know, the writers who, actually, who wrote that particular script, you know, they're always frantically taking notes, because you actually hearing now, you know, different voice added to that, you know, because again, like you said, they come to, you know, putting their inflection on on the character,

Alvaro Rodriguez 39:00
Right! Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And just, you know, even things that you thought work on the page that don't work, in the reality of situation, or, or, and that's another thing, too, is like, just an example of last season. Working on an episode that I've written with Robert Patrick, and we were rehearsing the scene sitting around the table without Patrick and NASM, done for Brandon Sue, who would play Kate and Scott for this is children on show. And there was a moment I was just kind of kind of glanced over Robert, and he just had this look on his face. And I just told him, I said, you know, I can't even look at you because you're so you're so intense right now. I mean, you can do more with one look than than if I gave you a page of dialogue and realize that the physicality of the actor is something that never could sort of under underestimate in, in in the writing process.

Alex Ferrari 39:59
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Alvaro Rodriguez 40:08
And realize that you have to, you have to leave something for the actor, be simple for the actor to do. Recently in Los Angeles, I went to some screenings of films that John Borman made strikingly, Marvin, particularly point blank, and a movie called Helen Pacific. And Glenn Epstein, I think his name is had written a biography of Lee Marvin told the story about a senior blank blank in which we Marvins character, Jesus comes back to the his wife, who basically set him up or watched as he was allegedly killed and left for dead. And he comes back just to see her and realizing, or thinking that he's going to kill the guy who tried to kill him that he's been now shacked up with his wife, and had this scene where we had all this dialogue, me Marvin had all this dialogue with his wife, and he just asked if he could not say any of it, and just have the conversation beyond from the wife side. And, you know, it's just his wife kind of talking to him, as if they're having a conversation, but it's only her lines, and he's just giving her the CSIS look at and he's just, he's just acting without dialogue. And you see how much how smart that is, first of all, and how brave it is, for an actor to say, I can do this without words, I can do this with my own physicality with my own presence. Without, you know, without having to just say everything that I feel, I can show you that. And to think about that, as a writer is, you know, it's, it's an amazing sort of lesson and realizing that, that this, this really is a skeleton. And it's the actors, and it's the directors of photography, and directors in the lighting firms, everybody else puts the flesh on those bones. And, and, you know, it's something I think about, you know, in the process of writing fine to kind of leave that leave that space. You know, that's what the whitespace is, I think, you know, on the page, but whitespace is, is the place where the actor shines light spaces where it's not, you know, sort of snapping isn't the dialogue for how well you wrote this action line. The actors themselves, characters that are that are breathing between this in between. And I, I talked about Jonathan Wichman, song about the Velvet Underground, he has a line in there, where he says, they played less notes and less more state. And that sort of thing I tried to do in screenwriting, kind of pointless notes and leave more space, that space there for, for the actors to inhabit. And I think when you really have a strong theme, like that, the theme, I think, it's my favorite scene in that episode, where these characters are sitting together, realizing that they're, they're kind of stuck in this place, and, and stuff, Gecko is kind of forcing them to confront their own demons. And there's only one one thing that that the valley This is good, but it's, it's, it's really what the actors bring to it, it's really so much of what they're what they're showcasing their own panel capabilities. You know, provides a lesson to me as a writer,

Dave Bullis 43:29
It's sort of like adding that layer of subtext, you know, and it's sort of, you know, finding a way to actually say things that actually coming out and saying them and all the things below the surface. And, you know, I've never actually seen that movie, but I will make sure to actually check that out. Because that would, you know, that's a way to, you know, to tell a story.

Alvaro Rodriguez 43:49
Yeah, point let me and I think he also gives another example another movie that we Marvin did with the director Richard Brooks called the professional which is a Western it's also I'm sure it's a big influence on on planning Tarantino and things like that too. But point blank to the professionals and talents Pacific which is basically in a lot of ways a silent film, to actually live in and to share the filming the Japanese actor are stranded on an island in World War Two. And you know, one of the speaking with women speak Japanese for this remade in a way as enter the mind and 80s Bible from theaters. With Denis play the new Boston is a sci fi movie, we're human and alien or crash landed on this planet. And, you know, you just, you're just such strong lessons for a writer, to look at structure to look at how stories are told, and to look at the, you know, to be reminded of, of how much can be done with silence or how much can be done with with work with with with the telling story, or Robert told the story. I'm not yours actually in the director's chair or not, that's something that Francis Coppola had told him and he was doing the interview about, you know, something that he liked to do with the actors is shooting an entire scene without dialogue, just as a, just as a rehearsal as a practice. And laboratory, he never, he never actually done that before. But he was really intrigued to try it. You know. And, and I think that those, you know, there's something, there's something that can be gained by that. There's, there's definitely a lesson to be learned. From the writer standpoint, and from the directing standpoint, to you know, that you're not dependent, what was coming out of the actors. Now, as much as you are, you know, remembering that this is cinema, you know, this is a visual medium. People remember shots, people remember quotes from movies all the time. But, you know, when you have a scene, and you let the actors sort of really inhabit that thing, and you don't not in a hurry, I'll cut. You know, you can find some impressive moments, and hopefully, remember them in a way that will illuminate your own writing. At least I did.

Dave Bullis 46:11
And that is a very interesting technique as well, you know, what I want? And one of these, you know, film books I have? No, you can't see it right now. There's a whole shelf of screaming in books behind me of films and everything else. Once again, I'm sure I'm sure we have probably have almost the entire same library. But but, you know, there was a technique where the guy actually says, watch your favorite film without sound. And, and, you know, and yes, just see how every scene plays out?

Alvaro Rodriguez 46:39
Absolutely, absolutely. You know, one piece of advice that I've often given people, you know, either in a workshop that I've taught or, or LED, or, you know, people have asked me about, you know, writing something, and I said, Well, you know, like, you've seen lots of movies. So what's your, you know, think of a movie that has a great scene and that you really love, and then try to find the screenplay for that movie, and read the scene, read and read. What does that look like on paper? You know, you have this favorite scene from, you know, I don't know, The Exorcist or to live and die in LA or freakin examples. But, you know, what does that look like on paper? Well, it was just an action scene, one of the action laundry lines, and then what how does what does that look like? And just to see the thing that you've always seen, completely visual, visually? And what's that look like? When it's words on paper? You know, and, and to see how that was translated to become the scene that you loved in the movie? I think that's a that's a really strong lesson for kind of just just to experience that in a different way. And that's,

Dave Bullis 47:52
Yeah, and I agree that something I've done too, is actually go out and find the screenplays of things. Like I Speaking of which, you know, you know, the Oscars weren't too long ago. As soon as I watched Birdman and the Grand Budapest Hotel, I was like, I gotta see these screenplays. Right. I think those two and whiplash are definitely the best written movies in the Oscar race. And those are three screenplays. I was like, I just want to see how they did this. And, you know, it's phenomenal. And actually, I had one of the writers of Birdman, Alex and Dan Alerus, on here, about 15 episodes ago, and he was, you know, as awesome be able to pick his brain, but it is yours. Because, you know, you're the guy who actually wrote You know, you know, you know, these films that you know, we're talking about, so you can actually tell us? No, this is what I did, you know, and speaking of which, you know, I want to ask you, you know, about machete, and, you know, I wanted to ask you, you know, did you come up with this, you know the inception of this idea, or was it was it, Robert or was it was it your brainstorming

Alvaro Rodriguez 48:55
It was always Robert, it was always Robert and Danny. I mean, I think you know, when Robert first met Danny pareho when you can so edition for Desperado. And you know, the storytellers with Robert took one look at Danny's you're the guy. Rob. Danny was auditioning for a character called the boss which means knives. And he's a nicer and Desperado. And then talking to Derek. Oh, hi. And, you know, Danny had been packing for many years already. Usually playing you know, bug number three, or you know, the bad guy. It's fall apart. And you know, Robert, just like you said, became fast friends with Danny and said, you know, it'd be great to make a movie in which you're the you're the hero. You're the guy. And I think that was sort of the inception of machete and Robert had written kind of a long treatment script and that kind of thing for for a machete character. And then when it came time to make the Grindhouse Rubbermaid plant chair punter gene and a deaf person is releasing several feature.

Alex Ferrari 49:56
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Alvaro Rodriguez 50:05
Then came up with this idea of really kind of going with the whole double feature drive in concept and doing fake trailers for movies that didn't exist. And so machete became one of those things. And it was like, well, great, we can just make the big trailer, we got to have to make the movie. But then, you know, even though Brian house, you know, sort of underperformed with the box office, the trailer from the shed, he sort of took on a life of its own on YouTube and things like that. And people really responded to it, it became a thing where it's not low, we're actually going to do and I started writing around the time of Grindhouse, I was there and wrote a little bit of dialogue is actually in the trailer with GH as the priest. And then you know, later on, just started working from the trailer, basically, and creating a new story, a fuller story out of it, and having creating more characters, the just all the character, the show boundaries character, that that Don Johnson character, all those kinds of things that just really evolved over time until we actually knew the phone. And, and you see, you know, you see how it turned out.

Dave Bullis 51:24
Yeah, I thought it was phenomenal. And I ain't you know, it, you know, it was the Grindhouse theme, you have the cuts and scratches. And you know, and you know, and it's just you know, Danny is the perfect guy to play a guy. I mean, he looks at a guy named machete.

Alvaro Rodriguez 51:39
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I just did a panel with him the Comic Con in Fort Lauderdale two weeks ago, you know, and someone from the audience asked, you know, what's your favorite character, and said, you know, machete, and Marcia Brady. asked him how that happened. And he said, Yeah, you know, my manager says, you know, I think we got a Superbowl commercial. And he was like, You're kidding, you know, what, what do I have to do? You have to be Marcia Brady, you're not gonna do it. You know, even that is just like, so amazing. It was so amazing. It's terrific. Glasses, should be a small part of the sort of persona that Danny has been able to inhabit as that character.

Dave Bullis 52:41
So when you know when they were filming with Chet de we you on set every day, or were you orgies a few days, or

Alvaro Rodriguez 52:47
A few days, I was on, off and on? It was you know, it was amazing. It was amazing. I got to be upset when Robert De Niro was there and talked to him a bit. And, you know, you're so you're so generous. And so, so commented. And I think the thing about, you know, the thing about him, too, was that, you know, he was feeling he had expressed interest in becoming involved in the project early on, to play the plays this genogram. And in the original draft of the script, the senator was just the guy to get shot, it was not really a character in the, in the script. So it really started having to try to build a character out of this guy. And so you know, that the thing that, you know, we understood from from Robert Janiero was that he wasn't interested in, you know, doing it unless there was really something there to do. And it didn't want people to fail. He was just, you know, picking up a check. And so, you know, started coming up with ideas and sending in dialogue and concepts and stuff like that. And we get responses, like, that's good, that's good, Keep coming, keep coming. And, you know, finally hit on sort of the finale of his character, and, you know, the speeches that I'd written for his character, you know, when you signed on, and one of the funny things in the, in the finale of the film after he's been shot, he's dying on the floor, on the ground, with Lindsay Lohan dressed as a nun hovering over him with a gun. He's sort of kind of blanking out, you start in my script, at least one draft of it. He starts reciting the act of contrition and the Catholic act of contrition in Latin, like he's reverting back to his actual, you know, he's not really a Texan and all this stuff. And Robert read the thing and he's like, Well, what the hell is this? It's like, you know, he's not really fixing he's he's reverting back to this, you know, New York childhood or whatever. It is all deploying either saying that contrition forgiveness before he dies. And it's like, that doesn't make you never going to do that. And then that one day and I got a call from Elizabeth Ramadan, those spirits are on the phone. But she's like, I want to read the need the Latin correctly talking about, like the Latin thing that the Nero says he's working with a priest, he wants to get it right. But that was the thing he was. So he became just completely prepared into every line of dialogue. And he did, you know, it was never a thing where, you know, I don't know, my line or whatever like that, please, you know, he was she was totally into it. And I think he had a really good time doing it, and certainly had, you know, it was definitely a highlight of my professional career to say, Well, I didn't really Robert De Niro, and Lohan and everybody else, but you know, he was definitely an actor. I grown up, you know, just loving every film that was done. And I was so impressed with with him and his presence. But had backstories I guess for a lot of the actors that I've worked with, have just been really fortunate to have people that just always think to bring their A game

Dave Bullis 54:04
And asked me such a high as a writer to to say, you know, hey, Alfa, who's your movie? Oh, we had, you know, Robert De Niro. And so and you you also you touched on your your Lindsay Lohan. And I'll see you at Steven Seagal movie as well.

Alvaro Rodriguez 56:32
Steven Seagal was great. We had you know, Don Johnson written some things, you know, Robert has spent a lot of time with Don Johnson before and, and so you know, we use some of the like little phrases that Don Johnson says in the sprint. And I was sitting with him one day on set, and he was like, Oh, I love this is great. You know, I say stuff like this, like, how does that blow your spirit up? And I said, I know. That's why we put it in to be very natural. It was, you know, just amazing. Really, I mean, even during the editing process I was sitting with, with my cousin, Rebecca Roberts, younger sister who was working on the film as well. We were watching the dinner scene. And I said, just stop for a minute. And she said, What's matter? That's Robert De Niro. Thing lines I wrote, you know, in my room, and now it's just like, I didn't need a minute.

But you know, it's great. And whenever stuff like that happened, it's important to just say thank you, I'd be amazed by it all.

Dave Bullis 57:44
You know, and that is that is absolutely amazing. And, and, you know, like you said, it's also as I've been finding it to, to have gratitude as well and always miss and live in the moment and not, you know, just sort of when you see Robert De Niro and just want to stop it there. That's, you know, that's amazing. Albro

Alvaro Rodriguez 58:02
I was just Yeah, I still get goosebumps. Thinking about it. You know? And it was, it was a great experience. And, you know, the movie did well. And, you know, I was just really proud of the way it turned out and realized that, you know, the last draft is the final edit of the movie. You know, there's so much of that movie that some so many ways that movie was improved by by the editor, and really making me come together. And, you know, it's far from a perfect movie, but it's definitely something I'm proud of. And, and, you know, it was a great experience.

Dave Bullis 58:44
And, you know, I particularly like the the the final battle between Seagal and Trejo because if you ask me in a million years, I never would have guessed that, you know, those two ever would have crossed paths and you know, in any movie because they sort of do different movies, you know, but they were able to come together for machete machete. And it's just, you know, I thought it was very well done. So and Scott was still doing his Akito and, you know, Trejo still swinging the mushroom in the mid shut days. He's so confused. I thought it was very well choreographed as well, I thought was phenomenal.

Alvaro Rodriguez 59:17
Yeah, well, thanks, Jamie. And, you know, that's again, it's like, you know, part of that part of the whole process of machete to is realizing for fairly early on, this was going to be in so many ways to kind of kitchen sink, rewriting. It's like, nothing is off by and nothing is out of bounds. Everything Is Everything is possible. You know, you could have a scene where a guy would close down a building with someone's intestines. Or, you know, Michelle establish those cops you know, or the fake cop through to the back of the seat and in the backseat of the car and then steers the car by turning is the surely through the guy, you know, and stuff like that. And it's and

Alex Ferrari 59:59
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Alvaro Rodriguez 1:00:08
You know, so it was, it was, it was pretty liberating in that way to them realizing that you're gonna have this, this pretty the final showdown were going on. anything was possible, you could have, you know, sword fight with machete and, you know, and the integral in his story, you know, it was just turning everything up to around him, I hope.

Dave Bullis 1:00:34
So, you know, when you were actually writing it, did you actually know Scott was gonna be cast in that part? Where did you actually, you know, sort of, you know, a follow up that part later on, when Scott was cast

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:00:44
A little bit of both, a little bit of both, I mean, the character was starting to be there before it was the goal. And then knowing it was the goal, things were, you know, were enhanced in attitude, it was, it was really fun that was part of the process with, with the movie itself. And even from Lindsay Lohan's character to I mean, Robert, told me if I can get Lindsay Lohan to play this part, but it's not even a part. You know, we got it, we got to try to, you know, give her some stuff and, and just sort of, you know, hit on these different little ideas that this kind of gave her gave her her own heart. And, and, and told a little story, you know, so it was great. It was, it was it was, it was so much fun to be a part of that, that process.

Dave Bullis 1:01:32
And, you know, that's great that everything was able to come together, you know, very, very, you know, it's something that, you know, you've been involved in moviemaking for, you know, doing with two decades now. And you know, you know, whatever can go wrong will go wrong in a film set. And, you know, or even even beyond that, you know, even when things are in development, it's so good. You were able to put it together. But I mean, again, if you have any listener out there has not seen that yet. I urge you to go out there and check it out. It's phenomenal. You know, we've been talking for about an hour now. Would you mind just taking a few quick questions that got sent in? Sure. I'm sorry. That was an hour flew by? Yeah, it always seems to work out that way. Which I don't know, if I just asked the right question. Or, you know, I just sort of I don't know. So, but you know, I'm glad it flew by? Because I mean, it was one of

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:02:25
The conversation. Yeah, it's the conversation, you know, when you when you talk and you have your conversation, you you're not looking at your watch. So that's what, that's good.

Dave Bullis 1:02:35
So our first question is alvaro, would you ever consider directing your own film?

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:02:41
Absolutely. Absolutely. I definitely am interested in doing that. Years and years and years ago, I had written was actually my first screenplay. And I was hoping to directly it was going to be very low budget, very independent Texas based project, it never really got off the ground, but sort of as, as training for that I went and made a short film on video that no one has ever seen, no one will ever see. But you know, and it happened so quickly. It was not much of a lesson to me, except to realize that I needed a lot more experience. You know, and that for a long time, I just, you know, whenever I was asked that question, I would say, you know, you know, I just right now I'm just really trying to focus on being a better writer, that's still my answer, I'm still trying to focus on being a better writer, but I'm definitely interested in doing that. Down the road behind the camera. And, you know, I think that's part of the new part of the great opportunity of working on decimal, Dawn is that, as a writer of the episode, we're sort of writer producer, you're they're upset, you're, you're working with the actors as much as you want to be. And so I've had very hands on experience in terms of working with the actors, or rehearsing with the actors, you know, even helping block scenes, and things like that, that. That, to me is like, again, sort of more fuel for the fire really wanting to take the opportunity to try to do to derive as well, I mean, I guess it's, it's the thing to have that less than that, I feel like I have learned or am learning about the sort of the sort of things that are sort of that I have the language or cinema in some way already in my brain. And I can, I can approach these things in that way. You know, we're still with a, with a very open, very open heart and mind thing and I'm always going to try to be learning. I'm the director and training or writer and training or whatever, you know, but I'm learning by doing and trying to be as involved in the process as possible.

Dave Bullis 1:05:07
And that's also you going to actually you're actually going by, you know, writing era directing your own film. Yeah. Because honestly, because then you could VOB like, you know, your, your cousin or Tarantino was, you know, write and direct and, you know, really put your stamp on the film, kind of like, you know, the tour theory of filmmaking, but this time, you know, you know, you can say that, because, you know, you have the writer director, you know, and you, you know, you

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:05:31
Yeah, well, you know, the theory is that wonderful, is a wonderful concept. And I certainly think that it holds true, you know, in a lot of ways, directors, especially those directors, you know, they definitely have a stance, but I think that the thing that maybe I realized, coming out of from the, from the perspective of the writer, and just sort of being a fly on the wall, sometimes in an onset, or whatever, in any kind of environment, when you see the process, you know, it's so filmmaking and television is the most collaborative, creative form that there is my mind, it is, through their collaboration, nothing is possible without, you know, everybody input everybody's efforts to make this thing happen. You know, if you really want to be an authority, you know, write poetry, because no one is ever going to say, you know, I'd really love to write a poem with you, you know. And, and I think that's, I mean, to me, that, that's, that's, that's, I think, that's a lot of ways why, you know, Robert, as, as really dependent on and creating relationships with people with whom you can work again, and again, actors and, and people behind camera, because there's a sort of shorthand language that the defense developed. And there's a, there's a sort of unwritten expectations on what people are bringing to the table. And, and doesn't mean that he doesn't direct, the RSC does, but but he is able to, to, to get what he wants, by, by virtue of having a really strong cast and crew. And, and be the first person to acknowledge that it may not have been that way, in the early days, because he was so he was so hands on. And so, you know, with El Mariachi and the short films that he made the for them, it was always a thing of, he was really trying to become a master of all trades, not just a jack of all trades, but a master of all of them, because he never knew what was going to be the thing that was going to get him a job. You know, maybe people will hate my movie, but they'll love the way it was shot. And I'll get a job as a DP. And they knew they'll hate, you know, they'll hate the way it looks, but they love the spirit and the dialogue, and I'll get hired as a writer. So he was always, you know, really trying to find the best in himself, to fill all those roles, to see which one was going to be the one thing that people responded, and they happen to respond to all of it, you know, in so many ways. And, but, you know, now in the, on the big scale, it's really impossible to do that so much anymore. And, you know, I think that, you know, whenever you see these speeches, when people are kept awards, and they, you know, they think, you know, the writers or they think the producers, and they, they thank the people who put this thing together, and it's, there's so much community experience. I think Orson Welles that every movie is a miracle. And the miracle is that you get all these different people who may have all kinds of different opinions to work together out upon. And that's really, I think, what sort of unites them and get everybody working for the good of the, of the project and doing their best.

Dave Bullis 1:09:07
And just add on you said, you know, the director is a guy that sort of leads a team and builds a team. That's so true. And, you know, one thing that I, you know, I've always heard is the idea of genius surround, which means, you know, always hire people that are smarter than you are. And, you know, that and that way, you know, you know, and they said, you know, we part of the director, directors job, it can be taken care of, just by hiring good, you know, having a great script, have a great cinematographer, and then having great actors and then you know, you pretty much you know, it's only yours to mess up from there.

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:09:46
If I were to go direct the film right now, I would have no idea you know, what kind of lighting am I going to use? Or what's the right terminology for this piece of lighting or that piece of lighting or this this lens or that lens? I would have no idea at all.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:00
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:10:10
You know, I might have, you know, a very, very, very basic idea. But I mean, again, that's the thing I, you know, it would be a matter of really kind of surrounding yourself with people who know what their, what their tasks are, that's great. And they know their strengths. So you're trying to put together a team that not everybody has the same strengths, but because you put together a team, now you're, you're pretty badass. And it's just your job to make sure that, that it all comes together in the way that you want it. And you keep pushing until you get what you want.

Dave Bullis 1:10:48
Yeah, very well said. And, and our next question is, Alberto, what advice could you give for someone trying to break into Hollywood?

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:11:00
You know, I always felt guilty about that question, because, you know, I didn't, you know, in a lot of ways, I'm broken into Hollywood. And what I have done is, you know, been able to do the work with Robert on many, many projects, I'm now working with other with other people on other projects, and doing other things off the ground features and stuff like that. But, you know, obviously, I feel like, I had a, you know, a huge door opened up for me that I scrambled through. But, I, at the same time, you know, you mentioned 20 years of experience, but a lot of those years, I wasn't making fun of those years, I was not, I was not as involved as I as I could have been, I never really kind of took the bull by the horns and said, You know, I'm going to go to LA and I'm going to try to, you know, work my way into the system, and everything has a time in place. But I would say that, you know, to kind of follow up with Virginia surrounds, like is this Detroit, you know, it's there's so much in this, in my experience that, I don't know if I can speak to the business, but I'll definitely say in my experience, that you cannot undervalue the power of relationships. And every, every time that that I have had any kind of success, any kind of forward movement, it's always been built upon relationships and meeting, putting yourself in a space where you can meet people, and, and, and, and find common interests and things that you can do. And then one of the huge things for me was, when machete came out, in 2010, I was invited to be a panelist at the Austin Film Festival. And I really literally was the guy changer, the laptop in the basement for such a long time. Even though I've already done that for about three years earlier. I was suddenly, you know, up on stage, you know, doing panels with real working professional screenwriters that I somehow tricked into thinking I was one of them. And, you know, it really opened a lot of doors for me, because I became instant friends with a lot of people I'm still friends with today that have helped me in so many ways. In the sciences, you know, that I used to go to California, and, you know, and try to set up meetings, you know, from the point the plane landed, so I have coffee with one guy says, Oh, you need to go talk to this guy, that you should meet this person. And then coffee and breakfast and lunch and drinks and dinners and after things and just like really networking, putting your best foot forward, you know, and thing of being a bridge builder, and, and trying to, you know, define those things, you know, find the ways that, that, that that will help you get where you want to be, you know, and I found that, you know, having boots on the ground in California and Los Angeles, especially, there's always has been over the last couple of years, but actually, it's been huge for me. It's almost like uncanny sort of chain of chain with things that someone I didn't know, you know, last week, two weeks later was saying, you know, I'd like to work on a project with you, or would you like to be involved in this? Or would you would you give me some ideas about this, and then something happened. It's just, it's pretty amazing. But I think that's the thing is, you've got to put yourself in a position to create that kind of environment. So, you know, it means starting joining small in the main starting in a local writers group and do that and find it find the people in the writers that you really complement with that. And I know that that are, you know, bring something to the table, you don't maybe even work with them, or maybe even work with you. And, and just start, you know, really start building, building your relationships as you're building their own talent and building your skills. And then just push. And that's I think that's the thing, it's pushed as much as as much as you can. I don't know, I don't know what else to say about it. And for sure, I wish everybody good luck. And we're living in an age right now with the demand for content, I don't think there's ever been as high as that. The opportunities have never been as plentiful as they are, right. I mean, in a lot of ways, and I think that, that just sort of the willingness to, to say, I'm ready, I'm ready for work I'm ready for for, you know, I'm ready to take this to the next step. And join yourself in the next is good advice, as I think I think

Dave Bullis 1:16:10
And, you know, again, you know, Cisco Networking meetings, and you know, just finding out what you can do for people and being a bridge builder. And, you know, again, I think that's key, not sort of so much asking why other people can do for you what you can do for other people. You know, people don't want to, you know, be sold to constantly it's like, you know, like, when I talk to people on social media to Alvarez, a, they I always tell people do don't constantly promote yourself, you know, don't constantly talk about this, you know? Because that's just the turnoff. No, no one's gonna follow you just to hear all about you constantly.

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:16:44
Right! Right. That's true. I mean, I think that's the thing that, you know, social media is still in its infancy in a lot of ways. And, and that's that, that is a lesson that people are learning, I'm learning it through. And I think that there's this thing about social media, if you really kind of, I think, try to use it in your, in your best interest is not always to be self promoting, but to be sharing, you know, to share other people's successes, you know, and promoting other people's other people's projects and stuff like that. So when someone you know, friend of mine post, you know, my friends, were trying to have a Kickstarter, really trying to get this project off the ground, you know, if I have 20 bucks, I'll throw it into the alternative, I've never met these other guys, or friends, or my friends, you know, I'll throw in the money, and I'll promote it on my Facebook page, or whatever. But you know, if I can do that, you know, I just, you know, I want to share, you know, whenever I do social media stuff, whether it's like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, whatever, you know, they're, you know, you could be able days, or you can just be all about me, me, me. And I definitely do some of that and say, Oh, look, you know, here I am in the writing room, and on some semi exotic locations, and Angeles or whatever. And, or I'm saying, you know, you need to be watching this show American crime, it's a British show on television right now, and people are really going to dig it. Because I have friends that are active on the show versus guys made show. And that's just like, you know, that's the kind of thing that I'd like to do, and just try to, you know, try to, you know, kind of spread the goodwill. Yeah. And then, you know, you're just like, there's so many people in so many connections that you can make, I mean, I've never met you in person, I only know you from from Twitter and things like that. And I wouldn't be doing this podcast with you. Otherwise, you know, so on. And it's an amazing tool. And it can it can build relationships, and connect people together in ways that, you know, would have been impossible 10 years ago. So I think it's great.

Dave Bullis 1:19:10
Yeah, and I find a lot of guests through Twitter, too, because that's how I think we initially met. And then And then now, yeah, you're right. It's you know, and using Twitter as a networking tool has been awesome for me. Just meeting people and just seeing what they're working on and stuff like that. I've actually tinkered around about actually writing a book about how, how I use Twitter as a networking tool.

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:19:33
Great. I do. Oh, thanks. Definitely tweet about it.

Dave Bullis 1:19:38
Well, thank you. It's all it's all my pile outro of like, you know, the 8 million. It's like, okay, that's a good idea. Maybe I should do that. It's, it's one of those things, you know, I'm gonna get around to Sunday right now, you know, I'm just focusing on some other actual writing things. But we've been talking for about an hour and 80 minutes or so,

Alex Ferrari 1:20:02
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Dave Bullis 1:20:11
So, you know, and I know, you know, you're busy. And you, you know, I don't want to keep you too much longer. So, you know, in closing, is there anything that we didn't discuss that, you know, you wanted to mention or talk about?

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:20:23
I think we covered it, I just, you know, I would just say that, you know, it's, it's, like I say, I'm, I feel like, I'm not, maybe not, I'm the last person to give advice. But you know, because I still feel like I'm, I'm trying to be learning every day, I'm trying to keep that, that, that perspective on everything. But I know that there's things that I picked up that if I can impart to someone else, and they can get something out of it, you know, I think that's great. I mean, it's like, you're gonna use what you can use and, you know, which get us to throw it away, you know. And I think that's the same thing. There's so many, so many things that are out there for aspiring writers, or writers that are trying to break into the business. You know, but, you know, just because, you know, you've read it in a bookstore, it's, you know, you've got to make the experience will be valuable for yourself. You know, I did teach for a short while I taught a course, at Texas a&m Galveston study, still sports of all things. And I had the students read this book from a Herman Melville novel that nobody reads anymore called Redburn. But a boy's first journey to see. And he's taking his, he's going to Liverpool, and he's taking his father's guidebook to Liverpool. And when he gets to the city, and he opens up the guidebook, he realizes the city has changed. And that, you know, as far as guidebook really wasn't much helpful to him anymore, and he had to find his own way, in the city, there were some things that were some sort of landmark, but the city changed. And I think that, you know, the lesson I was trying to impart that time, it's like, I'm giving you a lot of ideas about how to kind of manage your time how to study how to kind of working through how to do all these things, you know, you might find that some of them are most useful for you, you got to find what works and not be afraid of trying new things, and being open to experiences and, and really trying to build on the one on on your base, and never sit back and say, you know, I know it all. And people would just have to recognize my genius. It's a constant. It's a constant learning process. And I'm still doing it. I wish everybody social media and trying to do those things, the best of the best of luck and doing

Dave Bullis 1:22:59
Very cool. And you know, that's a very, very awesome positive message. Albro very positive. That's good. It's gonna be about the positive. Because, you know, there's far too many negative people in this world. So, you know, I want to say thank you, thank you very much, again, for coming on. Thank you. Appreciate it. Oh, you know, my pleasure is all mine. So, you know, where can people find you out online?

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:23:25
I'm on Twitter and I was busy. I'm on Facebook, I think the same thing, and I was funny around, I don't have a site or anything like that. But, you know, I'm often doing different events and not really doing anything at Southside. But every year I'm pretty active with the Austin Film Festival, doing panels and roundtables and, and you know, every October you can definitely find me around there. But, you know, look, look me up and keep an eye out on the race network for Destiel dog Season Two later this year. Hopefully, we've got some good stuff in store for fans of the show. And you know, the original the first season is already on Netflix in its entirety. Or if you're like, you know, really angelegt you can you can get the blu ray or DVD set with all the extras and commentaries and fun stuff like that.

Dave Bullis 1:24:33
You know, and also I'll make sure to link to everything in the show notes as well so you know, everyone if you you know, if you don't ever have been to El Rey network or you've never actually you know, seen an average Twitter, just look click on the show, just click on the links in the show notes and you'll be taken right there. And also most of the link to desolder on Season One. So again, if you haven't checked that out yet, please do because it's very cool, especially if you have enjoyed the the Each movie it's based off of. And it like everyone I've said it just expands upon that. So, in closing, everyone, thanks again for listening, you can find me at Dave bulls.com and Twitter. It's at Dave Bullis should be at Dave underscore bulls. And you know, there's you know, tons of show note links that if you want to stalk me on any other social media sites, they're there as well. And so cool outro thanks again, buddy. And, you know, I wish you the best of luck with you know, season two of Gustl dawn. And you know, if you ever want to come back, man, please let me know that was always wide open.

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:25:37
Thanks a lot, Dave. I really appreciate it. Talking to you.

Dave Bullis 1:25:39
Yeah. Good talking to bud.

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:25:41
All right. Take care.

Dave Bullis 1:25:42
Have a good night, buddy.

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:25:45
Thank you.

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IFH 707: The Hidden Tools of Comedy with Steve Kaplan

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:02
I like to welcome to show Steve Kaplan. Man, thank you so much for jumping on the show today.

Steve Kaplan 2:52
My pleasure.

Alex Ferrari 2:53
Thank you, man I've been I've been wanting to get you on the show for a long time. And as you've like I said earlier Off, off off air is like I've seen your work fly through my feed so many times and it's just like, I gotta reach out to see one of these days. I gotta reach out to sequences. It's just everything get caught up. And I finally have you here to talk comedy.

Steve Kaplan 3:12
We're both excited. Good.

Alex Ferrari 3:14
So you have a a long and illustrious career in the business. How did you get started in the business?

Steve Kaplan 3:22
I started out as a as a bad actor, or mediocre actor, okay. And, and a and a kind of a frustrated comic. I was I was not very good as a comic places asked me never to come back like not even as a customer. And, and I was I had two friends who were actors. And I started doing some directing. And they they said, Well, you know, we can't get we want to control our own careers. So we want to start a theatre company in New York. And I said, Great, let me think about it for a second. So I came back to a meeting with them and I said, Let's do something that no one else is doing. Everybody else does, you know serious theater and they do productions of checkoff in turtlenecks and, and expressionistic abstract plays I said, let's, let's be different. Let's do comedy. Let's be a theatre company that's devoted only to comedy. And, and they thought about it for a second and they they realized that it at the time in New York, it kind of filled a niche that no one else was filling. So we started this, this theater company. We called it Manhattan punch line. It wasn't a comedy club it. We did plays we did, but we did stand up nights we did improv and a lot of great people came out of it. We had David Crane who went on to do a little thing called friends. And Oliver Platt is great actor and We had people who later went on, like skips Grove in and David Currie they later went on to become executive producers and television. Michael Patrick king who did Sex in the City, two Broke Girls. He was the he was in our improv group. So a lot of great people came out of it. And as, as a young man, in the arrogance of youth, I thought I knew everything there was to know about comedy. Of course, I would. I was fascinated by comedy as a kid. I watched all the old Bing Crosby pop, road movies, Stan, Laurel and Hardy all you know, African Costello, I thought I knew everything there was to know about comedy. But after producing and directing for a couple of years, I thought to myself, Okay, I don't know everything. But I know it's not funny goddamnit. And shortly thereafter, I thought to myself, how the frick does this stuff work? Why is something funny on a Thursday, no longer funding on a Sunday? Why is Why is a script, sometimes the funniest the first time you get some actors around the table to read it. And after that, as when you're working on it, the more you work on it, the more you rehearse it, the less funding it becomes. So I saw what was going on. So I started doing experiments, I started, I was teaching an improv class to actors. And I started creating and designing improv games and exercises to try to understand what comedy is, why it works, what's happening when it doesn't work, and how can you fix it? And, and out of that 25 year exploration came this book, The Hidden tools of comedy. And I did that because when I came to Los Angeles, a guy who had been working with Robert McKee, your first Yeah, right? Story, of course, yeah. Yes, story. And he said to me, he said, you know, you could do for comedy with Robert McKee does for story. And I thought, Oh, that's interesting. Because up to then I just been a theater director, I'd work with actors, I taught acting, and improv. And so then I started to work with writers and do workshops for writers. And that kind of snowballed, and pretty soon, I was being flown out to Singapore, to London, to New York, to to Australia, and, and pretty soon on traveling around the world and, and doing comedy. And it all came out of the fact that I was this frustrated performer who tried to get his class to laugh successfully. I was, you know, most people are class clowns. I was a failed class clown. Well, you

Alex Ferrari 7:55
know, it's interesting that you say that, because I, you know, I find it that there are people who are innately funny, like, they could just you throw them in front of a room, and they could just make the crowd laugh. And then there's people who can write funny, but you throw them in front of a crowd, they just won't be able to do it. And sometimes, and then sometimes you get the magic of both, you get someone who's amazing writer and amazing performer. But it sounds like you were more of the writing style, as opposed to

Steve Kaplan 8:24
actually actually I was I was more of the, if you get me in a room, at a party, put a couple of drinks in me, maybe, you know, maybe a cigarette or two, you know, and, and I can be pretty funny, but, but it was getting up in front of strangers and, and writing materials. So what I found was my, my skill or my, my gift was was not in creating material, but in working on other people's material. And that's, that that's why I was good director. And I became a very and I am a very accomplished story, analyst and story consultant. So I do a lot of script consulting, for writers and, and producers and production companies. You know, what, I,

Alex Ferrari 9:16
when when analyzing comedy, because I've loved comedies, I've been I follow comedies on like I you know, even every every part of the kind of work I do as a director or as a writer, I always have some sort of comedic element into it. It's just, it's innate in me. And I've been fortunate or unfortunate to know many standard comics and worked with many standard comics over the years, which are generally the saddest people.

Steve Kaplan 9:43
They are they are big, dark, broken, broken people. Ray Romano one said that if he had been hugged once as a child could be an accountant. Exactly. And they're you know, they're filling their you know, even more than Then actors, comics are trying to fill in an unfillable hole that can never be never be completed. Doesn't doesn't mean that every comic is is depressed or has to be depressed. But well adjusted. People do not go into

Alex Ferrari 10:22
Amen, sir. Amen. So no, what I find funny is like growing up in the, you know, I'm an 80s kid. And I, you know, a lot of the comedies from the 80s, and even from the 70s, a Mel Brooks stuff, Spaceballs, Blazing Saddles, silent movie, history of the world. Some of that stuff's still still like Young Frankenstein. You can watch him Frankenstein today. And it holds

Steve Kaplan 10:46
it whole Frankenstein holds up. high anxiety does not

Alex Ferrari 10:53
correct. Yeah, there's certain there's certain things that do so in your opinion, why

Steve Kaplan 10:58
I think the difference is, a Young Frankenstein, even though it's full of gags, is about is a story. Yeah, that a guy trying to create a relationship and trying to figure out his place in the world. Whereas high anxiety is simply a series of parodies on Hitchcock with, with a disposable story that you you know, if you think about it, you can't really believe in it, you don't really believe in the relationship. So to me, comedy that that sustains and that, that that holds up over time. Even if it's as silly as airplane is always it is always about characters in crisis, as opposed to Scary Movie four, which has, which has as many gags per minute as airplane does. But you don't care about those characters, your your they never asked you to take them seriously. They never ask you to care about them to empathize with them. So that's to me, that's the big difference

Alex Ferrari 12:03
airplane is it's on my top, top 10 comedies of all time, I mean, it's just a brilliant thing. And those kinds of films, though they do hold over time. You watch even Some like it hot. You watch some like a high. And that thing is like it's like a Swiss Swiss clock is just hitting boom, and boom and a boom. And it's and it holds in how old is that? What that was? From

Steve Kaplan 12:27
the 50s? In the 50s? Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 12:30
so that I mean that movies over half a, you know, a decade a half a century old. And it's still hold.

Steve Kaplan 12:38
Hey, don't be ageist. Hey.

Alex Ferrari 12:44
No, no, no, but it's still no but like, you know, 50 years young, obviously, obviously. But, but there's a lot of things that even from the 90s Don't hold and from in early 2000s that were pipe might have made noise when it came out. But you go back and watch it now just like, like bar at which I still find it. I couldn't believe Borat was made. I went back and watched it a little bit. It doesn't mean I know all the jokes coming. So it doesn't hold as much as it did when it first came out. You know when it did and that kind of comedy. But it was very, it's just very interesting. What makes things hold and what doesn't make you know, and you're saying it's more story

Steve Kaplan 13:22
character. It's character. It's it's a, it's the great combination of character, premise and theme. So that so that even something as silly as airplane again, has all those three things. Whereas you know, deuce Bigelow, American Gigolo does not? For me. When when people ask me, What's my favorite comedy? I have many favorites. It's like asking what's your favorite kid? But for me, one of my favorite comedies of all time is Groundhog Day, because I think it's it's an amazing combination of comedy, you know, just pure laughs great performance by Andy McDowell and Bill Murray. But it's also about about something it's about what do you do with if you had a million lifetimes? What would you do with it? How would you spend it right? How would you how would you spend your day? How should How should you be mentioned the world and bench is Yiddish word that means marriage. That means a good man that means a person. Yes. And, and so. So to me, it hits on all those cylinders, right? And so I look for a film. For me comedies have to tell something true about being human has to tell something true about what humans you know, struggle with and deal within their lives has to has to be based on some incredible impossibility or implausibility. So that it doesn't have to be a fantasy like Groundhog Day, it can be something as simple as that movie with James Gandolfini and Julia Louis Dreyfus. Enough set, right, right, which is just this really cool, you know, simple, quiet story about a misuse, you know, is kind of struggling, she meets a guy, maybe he's going to be her new boyfriend, at the same time, she meets a client who becomes a best friend. And the client is the ex wife of the new boyfriend, who hates James Gandolfini and keeps on saying terrible things about him, which starts to affect her relationship. Now, is that impossible? No. But it's improbable. Yes. So you take, you take an improbable or impossible situation, and then you let it develop. That's the only time that you can lie in a narrative. And then you let it develop, honestly and organically. So a movie like big, and that's one lie in it. A kid makes a wish on a fortune telling machine he wakes up, he's 30 year old man, could that ever happen? No. But if it did happen, what would happen then? And every step of that movie develops organically and honestly, out of that premise. Now, some people might say, Yeah, but how does he get a job? At a computer at a toy toy company? And the answer to that is because that's the theme. The theme of big is sure. What's the connection between adulthood and childhood? So of course, you want him to meet some guy who works in that field in that area? You know, what would be the point of him meeting a guy who, who owns a gas station, so he ends up working at a gas station? You could do it, but it has nothing to do with the theme of the movie. So that to me, are those three elements that make a great comedy, character, premise and theme?

Alex Ferrari 17:08
Now, can you talk a little bit about what are the keys to making a good comedic lead character? Because there's there's you know, there's normally a leading man or leading woman, but a Kumi a good comedic leading character, what are some of the keys for that?

Steve Kaplan 17:25
I think I think the the main key is the ability to, to not only not take yourself seriously, but make fun of yourself. A great example of that is Jon Hamm. Who, arguably, you know, did a great dramatic job in in Mad Men, but he's able to make fun of himself, he's able to let himself be seen in a ridiculous or negative light and, and not pretend that he's that he's pretending to be that guy, he owns it. So that it's the ability to take the pie in the face, and not pretend it's somebody else.

Alex Ferrari 18:11
But that's, that's more of an actor, but I'm talking about like, on an actual character on a writing standpoint, what makes a goal leading character, comedic leading character, in a story

Steve Kaplan 18:23
yourself, yourself or your your, your mom or your dad. So in other words, when you're writing a character, rather than trying to make this character, the stupidest guy you've ever seen, or the, or the or the clumsiest guy you've ever seen. Just tell the truth about yourself all. All narrative, all fiction is actually a autobiography, your your, your writing about the world that you see your perceptions, your take. And so when you create a character, just make him as human as you are. People like to say, Yeah, but my you know, but my, my character is, is is not that smart. And my answer to that is, so what makes you a genius? Hmm. I mean, you know, what I'd like to say is, you know, people are not as smart as they'd like to think they are. On the other hand, they're not as stupid as they, as they feel they are. Right? Ah, you you might my best examples are the classic sitcoms, all in the family and everybody loves Raymond. Yes, the character of Archie Bunker, how did they come up with that character? Oh, my God. It was it was based on a a British sitcom. Till death us do part in which a bigoted British guy was always always in battle with his liberal son in law. But when Norman Lear wrote that, he didn't give two things. For this British guy he wrote his father, he put his father in the in the character of Archie Bunker. Archie Bunker always used to say stifle when he wanted Edith to stop talking. That was an invention. That's what his father said to her. His father would say to his mother stifle one of the, in one of the first episodes, Archie says to Meathead, he says, You are the laziest white man around and and meathead says That's racist. Well, then you're the you know, and then he makes something else. And it's exactly what his father said to Norman Lear. He just took it from life. And the same thing in terms of Everybody Loves Raymond, in, you know, Ray Romanos Italian, but Phil Rosenthal, who wrote the pilot, and was the executive producer is Jewish. That mother, it's his mother. That father is his father. Yes, they they, he used some of the autobiographical elements from Ray Romano, his comedy, but he doesn't live in, in Ray Romano skin, he doesn't walk in his shoes. He's he lives in his own skin. And so he offered his own family as the as the grist for that comedy mill. So how do you create a great character? Look in the mirror, and and, and if you're, if your mirror isn't wide enough, then go home, go home for Christmas or Thanksgiving, and look in the mirror but take a selfie with all those people behind. Look, when we get together at family gatherings with our cousins. What are we laughing? We're laughing at our family we're laughing at her and and how crazy they are. Just Just own it, just share it. The hardest thing in the world is to give up the veneer of respectability and normal sake. Yes. I mean, you know, we all want to appear smart and capable. And this and that. And we know deep in our heart of hearts, how truly messed up and how broken and how crazy we are. But we want to hide that at all times. In comedy. We don't hide anymore. We just, we just let it out.

Alex Ferrari 22:23
And it being you have to be authentic is what you're saying and be vulnerable as as a writer.

Steve Kaplan 22:29
Yeah. And as George Burns once said, The secret of success in show business is authenticity. And the minute you learn how to fake it, you've got it made.

Alex Ferrari 22:41
Very true. Very true. And no, I heard a quote I actually used in one of my podcasts the other day is like your best the best friend you have in Hollywood is someone who stabbed you in the face. And I was like, wow, that's that was such a great. That's I had to use it. It's great, great light. Now Now let me ask you How does comedy structure differ from dramatic structure? Because we were beaten in with the you know, this, you know, dramatic structure. But there isn't a lot of talk about how comedic structure is different?

Steve Kaplan 23:14
Well, when you're talking about structure, you're talking about a three act structure or Michael Haig has his six turning points. It's not what's what's different about the the comic hero's journey, as it were, from the hero's journey. And I use that term only because

Alex Ferrari 23:35
you have a book called The comics, comics hero's journey,

Steve Kaplan 23:40
which my friend Chris Vogler wrote the writers journey, and I called him up and I said, Chris, I'm ripping you off, but it's with love. I'm taking your title, and I'm making fun of it. But out of love, yes. And so So I think one of the differences is, when creating when creating a structure in a comedy, it, like I say, is that you get to make up crap, make up shit once, and then you have to play it, play it straight and play it honestly. So if this weird thing really happened, if I'm in this weird situation, what would happen then? So So rather than thinking about plot, you're thinking about character, you're following the character through the narrative as opposed to and let's throw this at the character that the character so in one sense, dramatic structure is a character you know, heroes have to be thrown obstacles, otherwise they'll just win, right? But think about us think about people. We can't even go we can't even get out of the house on top. let alone have an obstacle thrown at us.

Alex Ferrari 25:06
You're right, you're right. Like not being able to get a cup of coffee. It's It's night. There's no, I didn't ask for soy I asked for whole milk. Ah, the whole days gone.

Steve Kaplan 25:16
Right? So So rather than thinking in terms of, okay, we've got to throw this obstacle at them, we have to have this villain. What you notice from watching a lot of comedies, is that you don't need villains. You don't need antagonists, in comedies, sometimes there are simply because of the structure the story, but you don't need them. Who's the antagonist? In Groundhog Day? It's himself. Yes. He has to he has to evolve from himself who's the antagonist? In 40 Year Old Virgin? There is none no one's trying to stop him from getting laid.

Alex Ferrari 25:55
He has a breakthrough his own thing

Steve Kaplan 25:58
fact. In fact, everybody is hell bent trying to help him. Right. So so so there's there's a number of differences in in a dramatic structure. You have a hero who has all the skills they need to to do whatever they need to do. Bruce Willis in Die Hard. No, he walks on class with with no shoes and he kills off. He kills like a dozen bad guys and, and he's any he has wisecracks all the way throughout. He's got all the skills in the world. And so you have to keep on figuring out, how can I make it harder on him and harder on him. Whereas in a comic structure, your hero starts off with a minus a negative, they're broken, they have a hole inside them that they don't know. They're not aware of. So in the beginning of a comic story, your character thinks that they're fine. We in the audience can tell, well, that guy, Phil Connors, in Groundhog Day, he's a jerk. That guy, Andy in 40 Year Old Virgin, he said, dweep he needs to you know, meet a girl. But they think everything's going okay. They don't want to rock the boat. And when something happens to to rock their boat, the first thing I tried to do is they go into denial, it's not happening, or they are they desperately want to go back to the normal world that they think is working for them, that we that we see is not. And then what happens over the course of the structure. As they, as these broken people who start their stories off with, with damaged or absent relationships, they gather families around themselves. And so and so everybody, every character, every hero character in a comedy is is forming a kind of dysfunctional family around themselves to help them through their transformation. And as and when they get to the end, they there's usually a a segment in which there is and this this is similar in in dramas, there's an all is lost moment, right? But what's what's why that's so important for comedy, is that people sometimes forget that the most important moment in a comedy is the pain is the loss is how characters deal with that pain. And that loss, as opposed to well, let's just make it funny. Well, here's another funny thing. Oh, here's another funny thing. Wouldn't it be funny if we do this? So wouldn't it be funny if we do that? So So part of the part of the difference of the structure is that in the hero's journey, the hero goes off into the unknown world, and brings back in elixir that will heal the world, right? In the comic hero's journey, the hero, the comic hero is thrown inadvertently or against their better judgment or against their will into a world they don't want to be in. And as a result, have to transform and thereby heal themselves to be to be able to be better able to be a person, a mensch in the world. So they're not really changing the world as much as they are changing themselves. So all comedy is transformational.

Alex Ferrari 29:34
That makes amazing sense. A character

Steve Kaplan 29:37
in a comedy doesn't realize that they have to change, but they have to change because the world as they knew it is taken away from them. They're they're in Oz, or or they're, they're a 30 year old men when they're really 12 years old, or they're living the same day over and over again. Or they just find themselves in In a weird situation, and what do they have to do they have to, they have to become different, even though they don't want to become different, and over the course, so another difference in structure is that in a, in a dramatic structure, your hero has a goal in the beginning of the movie, I'm going to catch the killer, or I'm going to solve this mystery. Or I'm going, you know, what is Luke say in the beginning Star Wars, he says, I want to, I want to be a pilot, I want to join the rebellion. So what happens by the end of Star Wars, he saves the rebellion. He's a pilot. But in a comedy, your hero has a short sighted goal. Their initial goal is is wrongheaded or short sighted. What is a? What does? The kid in big one, he just wants to be big enough to ride on a on a ride at a carnival to be with the girl of his dreams? Right? What does Phil Conners want? He just wants to get a job? Well, you just want no in the beginning. He just wants to get a better job at a bigger new station where he can be a weatherman, in a bigger station. You're now in 40 Year Old Virgin, what does Andy want, all he wants is to be left alone. Because these days are filled. He's you know, he's playing Halo. He's practicing the tuba. He's painting his little figurines. He's happy. He thinks he's happy, right? So. So what happens in a comedy is that your characters have a discovered goal, a goal that wasn't apparent to them, or us in the audience at the beginning of the movie, that later becomes something they discover as they're transforming. And, and so, Midway or a half, you know, three quarters the way through, or 40% of the way through, they discover that they want something else they want something new, and then they put all their attention and focus to try to get that discovered goal.

Alex Ferrari 32:07
That's Yes. That's a great great, great answer, sir. To to a question. Yes, the heroes, the comics hero's journey. It's it's quite it's all there. It's all there. It's all here. It's all in here.

Steve Kaplan 32:19
I'm available on Amazon.

Alex Ferrari 32:23
Do you have the audio book yet?

Steve Kaplan 32:25
No, no, I'm even though I have a face. That's right. That's great for Radio. I'm not. Audio books are people have asked me about audio books. But what they don't realize is that you have to pay unless you're James Comey and somebody asked you to make one. You have to pay to make an audio book and then your publisher has to flog it. It's not it's actually it's not as not as easy as people like to think it is also having to stay in the studio and read this entire freakin thing. Oh, man.

Alex Ferrari 33:03
Um, yeah, I know, I know. You're doing the audio version. I am doing the audio version of my book. But I'm a podcaster and I've been playing for a long time and I have the gear. Yeah, so I'm doing it but it is. It's not like this voice I when I'm reading the book, it's not like Hey guys, how you doing? It's not that it's in today. So I have my my audiobook voice

Steve Kaplan 33:25
which is your your like the NPR girls on the SNL sketch. today so we have what he

Alex Ferrari 33:32
calls that similar to that but not completely sweaty balls. What a great what a great bit. Um, no, I wanted to I wanted to touch upon a genre of comedy which, and I just want to hear your thoughts on it fish out of water, which is such a great comedic world to be thrown into like the crocodile, Dundee's Beverly Hills, cops, you know, those kinds of things. Any tips on what, what writers can do to do because I haven't seen a good fish out of water? Comedy in a long time. Honestly, what was the last good one you saw?

Steve Kaplan 34:09
Well, I mean, there's there's there's been a dearth of great. A great film comedy most, almost everything that's really good. Or a lot of everything that's really good is happening in on TV or streaming?

Alex Ferrari 34:23
Yeah. Yeah, there's that's very true. Yeah. The greater the Grayson, Grayson, Frankie's of the wild,

Steve Kaplan 34:29
I guess, I guess, you know, Spy with Melissa McCarthy. She was a fish out of that would be Yeah, that was funny as hell, Todd. You know, for me, for me. We are all fish out of water. We're swimming around. It's everything seems great. And then we're forced as as, as Amy Sherman Palladino wrote, we're forced out through through a hole that's smaller than a lady's purse. And we're we're thrust into a world we didn't make we didn't ask for. And we don't know how the hell we got there, we can't do anything. We are a fish out of water. Our our whole lives are fish out of water. We, we like to pretend that we're in water, you know, we're swimming in our waters, but for the most part, everybody is a tale of a fish out of water. In fact, that's why that's why comedians who are outsiders in their culture are so successful. That's why Canadians

Alex Ferrari 35:38
in America, right,

Steve Kaplan 35:39
yeah, because because they're, they're, you know,

Alex Ferrari 35:43
perspectives.

Steve Kaplan 35:44
They can't fight the in, you know, the encroaching American culture, but they're, they're kind of outsiders to it. African Americans, New Jews, you know, all the all the ethnic comedians who came up in the 20s and 30s, and 40s. They're there in a way outsiders, and so and so in that way, everybody stories, a fish out of

Alex Ferrari 36:09
water. Very, very true. Now, there's a bit when you

Steve Kaplan 36:13
when you when you take a situation in which you tear somebody away from what his normal world is, you create a fish out of water, Bill Murray's a fish out of water is living the same day over and over again, the character big is a fish out of water. So a fish out of water just doesn't mean a a nerd, gets caught in a space capsule and has to be the world's first astronaut, right, they've actually made that movie. But that's not the only way to that's not the only way to tell that story.

Alex Ferrari 36:49
Got it? Got it. So so you're what you're saying because I'm calling it more of like when I say fish out of water, it's more like the Beverly Hills Cop, literally the toy cop in Beverly Hills completely out of out of his place. But you're saying that there's elements of that in almost every story. And one way shape or form almost especially Yeah.

Steve Kaplan 37:06
Well in a comedy once the characters have have experienced what I call the WTF moment. They are, in fact, fish out of water who at first desperately tried to swim back to two more familiar more familiar waters, Tropic Thunder, you have a bunch of give a bunch of actors pretending to be in Vietnam, the director is is literally getting punched out by the studio head. And he gets this idea given to him by by Nick Nulty to bring everybody out into country to have them experience what it would be like if they were really in country in Vietnam and two minutes in he gets blown up and they're they're stranded and they have to make their way back to the extraction point to get back to their hotels right they're automatically fish out of water right they're forced to be soldiers when they don't want to be soldiers they're actors. And and only only one of them Jay bearish only one of them's actually read the manual, so he knows how to read a map. So So I it would be hard for me to think of a movie in which your character isn't a fish out of water at some point.

Alex Ferrari 38:35
That's a very good analogy. Very good. Now, romantic comedies, which is a whole other sub genre of what we're talking about. That's a whole other beast. In your opinion, what makes good romantic comedies work because when it's good, it's really good. You know, when When Harry Met Sally, Sleepless in Seattle, you know, any Hall, right? Those I mean, when they work, they're just hitting on all pistons. But there's been a lot of bad ones too.

Steve Kaplan 39:06
Well, the the I remembering I can't remember the name, but they all have Catherine Hegel. And, oh, and the guy, the guy from 300. But they

Alex Ferrari 39:20
Yeah, Jared, Jared. I'm Tara Butler, Gerald burger.

Steve Kaplan 39:23
They all they all feature Heather and Hegel and Gerald Butler. And I remember watching this movie in about 15 minutes in, she's up a tree, spying on him, I'm thinking, Oh, that'll happen. Here's, here's the problem with bad romantic comedy movies. They think that romantic comedy is about getting to people who are destined to be together. And then because they're destined to be together, you have to come up with ways of keeping them Apart, let's just come up with ways of keeping them apart. But that's not really the problem that people have in relationships. People don't have the problem of keeping you apart. The problem is how do you stay together? And not kill each other? Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

So the so the really good romantic comedies are, you know, I guess I would put sleep as in Seattle as an exception, because that's, that's really a romantic comedy in which to faded people who are a part of the entire right away to figure out a way to get together, right. But but you know, but they start off on opposite ends of the country. You don't have to create an artificial obstacle to keep them apart. But But movies like When Harry Met Sally pretty, pretty well. Yeah, pretty woman I, to me, that's a really a great example of the genre on I'm thinking more like 500 Days of Summer.

Alex Ferrari 41:04
Yes. Any haul,

Steve Kaplan 41:08
any haul, even even about a boy, which is not a not a romantic comedy, insofar as Hugh Grant is going to be romantically involved with that boy, but it is a romantic comedy, because it's about him connecting with somebody else besides himself,

Alex Ferrari 41:26
or Notting Hill, it doesn't matter. We're not or Notting Hill, that's a

Steve Kaplan 41:29
credit. And it's all about not how do you overcome these artificial obstacles? It's how do you figure out how to stay together with the obstacles that are there to begin with, you're two different human beings, your your, your you have different DNA, you your molecules rotate and vibrate at different frequencies. You know, the real problem in relationships is once we figure out how to swipe right and swipe left, you know is that when we meet? How do you how do you stay together? I mean, because 50% of all marriages end in divorce. So that's it. So staying together is not easy. You don't have to create an obstacle, you have to figure out how do we stay together? How do we figure out how to be one in a pair as opposed to the one that we know? So? So that's that's what I think a good romantic comedy is a good romantic comedy explores how we are in relationships and what we do in relationships and why we're so bad at relationships as opposed to, well, these two people are just gonna love each other unless we put some kind of wall between them. They're just gonna break through that wall and rough like animals. No, no, there, you know, people, people have a hard time being in the same room with each other. How do you get past that?

Alex Ferrari 43:01
I mean, When Harry Met Sally is a really great example of that. Yeah, that whole exploration was something Nora Ephron was probably one of the geniuses in the genre without question. And even Notting Hill, it's about it's not. They have obstacles, but the obstacles are just what pack what baggage, they bring each each of them bring to the to the relationship. Julia Roberts is a movie star. He's, he's a book store owner. How are we going to make this work? We love each other. But how are we going to stay together? It's about how do we stay together?

Steve Kaplan 43:30
Exactly. As opposed to how do we get them together? How do we keep them apart? For 90 minutes? Right. One of the examples that I use in my workshops when people ask me this question, I showed them a couple of scenes from Dan in Real Life, which was, yeah, yeah. Steve correct. And and Dan, in real life. This Steve Carell. So a widower, he's been depressed for two years, he meets this wonderful woman, Julia Benesch, in a bookstore and they chat, they talk. And he goes back to because they're having like a family reunion at this, you know, unbelievable. Perfect house with the perfect family, the perfect everything. And he goes back, and and everybody can tell that he's kind of hepped up about something and they say, what happened? He says, I might have met a girl, and then his brother who's Dane Cook. And by the way, when you're in a movie, Dane Cook is out acting you you're in trouble. I just want to say that Dane Cook introduces his fiancee and it turns out to be Julia pinos from the bookstore. And at that moment, the movie goes wrong. At that moment, Steve corral. Ly lies and says, Oh, Hi, what's your name? Okay, here's the result of that. Later on in the movie, about That's 40 minutes later, because they're trying to pretend that they don't know each other, he ends up fully clothed, in a shower pretending to take a shower. If your character ends up in a shower fully clothed, you've made a wrong turn. People don't do that. It doesn't happen in real life. Here's what would have been a better turn for them. She comes in the door. And he says, Well, we actually know each other. Well. She's the girl I met in the bookstore. And she might be embarrassed for a second. And then he would say, No, no, but now I can see Dane Cook while you love her because she's great. Congratulations, my brother. Alright, and so the movie becomes, how long? Can you fool yourself into thinking that you're happy for your brother? As opposed to really wanting her for yourself? And that becomes, to my mind much a much more interesting movie than winding up in a shower, fully clothed, getting wet, because Wouldn't it be funny if I had to? If I had to hide? Why is he hiding? Right? So he's talking to his brother's fiancee? Why is he hiding in a in a shower and somebody turns the shower on.

Alex Ferrari 46:20
And it's interesting, because they, a lot of times when when I feel like when writers and directors and even actors and performers when they, they they they don't have that, that hold on story, structure, or story or like what you're talking about, or character or character. It's exactly what be believable for the character, right? They then automatically lean on slapstick. They write and they lean on like, how can we get a gag out here? Like, oh, Wouldn't it be funny?

Steve Kaplan 46:47
Wouldn't it be funny if Wouldn't it be funny if there's a there's a great story about the making of Groundhog Day. And in one of the earlier drafts in Groundhog Day, when he wakes up, and it's the third day and it's third time in a row? And he's is it really happening? Am I going crazy. And in the script, they have him shaving his head into a mohawk, destroying the room setting fire to half the room painting the other room and de cloak colors. He goes to sleep. Six o'clock Sonny and Cher on the radio, he wakes up the same day. And they looked at that they look at those rushes and Harold Ramis. And I'm guessing I'm guessing Bill Murray or the producers looked at the looked at each other and said, Why would he cut his hair into a mohawk? Why don't we do that?

Alex Ferrari 47:45
I mean, visually, visually, it's funny, but it doesn't work.

Steve Kaplan 47:48
How well how does it help? It doesn't help this right? Why would this character do that? And so at great expense, they reshot the scene. And all that happens in the scene, if you remember is he breaks a pen. Right puts one down on the floor, and he puts one on the nightstand. And he wakes up the next morning and the pencil is whole. And he knows it's happening.

Alex Ferrari 48:12
Right? And it's so brilliantly simple,

Steve Kaplan 48:15
simple, honest and direct. As opposed to Wouldn't it be funny if and from that point on and Steve tap Alaskey, who has his own podcast relates that that from that moment on, the question always was what would they really do? what would really happen? In fact, at the end of Groundhog Day, there was this whole debate, because he ended McDowell wins him in the bachelor auction and takes him home. And there was this whole debate on how the last scene should go. Did Did they have sex? What happened? Did you know what he wake up? Like naked? Would he wake up? And they they, rather than thinking, well, wouldn't it be funny if we do this? They they put it to a vote. The entire cast and crew got to vote on what would happen that night. What would happen with these two characters? Because they were no longer fictional characters. They were real. They were human beings. And what would these two human beings do? And that's why spoiler at the next day, it turns out that all he did was fall asleep. And she you know, Andy McNally says, he just fell asleep. And he says, It was the end of a really long day. Just so

Alex Ferrari 49:34
brilliant. And the song is the song is different. Pop song. It was it was it was great. Oh, such I got to watch that movie again. It's so great. I do want to also touch upon dark comedies. Yes, specifically one of my favorite dark comedies Heather's which was arguably a comedy. Yeah, but it is. It is funny as hell, and you can't make that movie today, like that movie would never in a million years be made today.

Unknown Speaker 50:06
Why can't you? I think there's a lot of PC

Alex Ferrari 50:09
stuff that wouldn't get through like, I mean, like when I stopped bleeding,

Steve Kaplan 50:12
just just kill it just killing

Alex Ferrari 50:16
this school kid in the school killings with a gun in the school. I mean, there's a lot of stuff that just wouldn't fly today. Like when I saw Blazing Saddles for the first time, I was like, well, there's never there's no way in hell that movie could be made today. Like it just, just just not gonna happen. And I saw this years ago, but even then, and then Bharat showed up, I was like, Well, okay, apparently everything. Um, but, but with Heather's specifically that film, which is a it's a it's a genius piece of work, in my opinion. How, what are tips that you could give writers on how to write good dark comedies? Because again, I haven't seen a lot of good dark comedies lately, either. I mean, when was the last good dark comedy you saw? Um, it's a rarity in the genre. Now.

Steve Kaplan 51:01
I'm guessing. I'm thinking about things like wag the dog.

Alex Ferrari 51:08
Still 2025 years ago? Yeah. Dr. Strangelove,

of course.

Steve Kaplan 51:16
I think I think the the, the key I mean, listen, Breaking Bad is a dark comedy. So many ways it is it was really bad. Ben is a dark comedy and TV, the TV there is more of these existence. The Sopranos is a dark comedy. I, I think I think besides the fact that that, you know, it's one thing to make a television episode for $2.3 million. And it's another thing to make a movie for 40 to $200 million. But I think the the thing you have to do is you have to know what, who you're making fun of and what you're making fun of. And you have to punch up. Don't punch down.

Alex Ferrari 52:04
That's why Heather's was so smart. A punched so up above the genre of high school. Right comedy.

Steve Kaplan 52:11
Well, it's also it's also you're there. You're you're not making? Listen, we're all living in a dark comedy. All right, we're all we're all with. No, but not just today's political situation. We're all whistling past the graveyard. That's what all that's what all black comedy is. Oh, I guess this is also 20 years ago, A Fish Called Wanda is kind of a Dark

Alex Ferrari 52:36
Avatar. Yeah. And, and

Steve Kaplan 52:40
what it all comes down to is as we're whistling past the graveyard, we're trying to make fun of the things that terrify us. So, to me, the way to make a dark comedy is to focus on how the people are coping with it. How are they coping with it? Because in in a metaphorical sense, we're all struggling in a dark comedy. And, and the the end of all of dark comedies is not too funny, huh? You know, none of us as they say none of us get out of this alive. So or as Clint Eastwood says, in the Unforgiven you know, we all get what's coming to us. Yeah. So so so the the idea is that you're you're not pretending when you say that there's Death and Dismemberment out there waiting for you? How are you? How do people deal with that? How do they react to that? What happens to the living people as they grapple with these issues of death and destruction and extinction? So that so that if you're, if you're making a dark comedy, honestly, you're just finding what's ridiculous and absurd. In in what in what we're doing. To to deal with the fact that we're living you know, we're on this blue cinders spinning through a void. We don't know where we came from, we don't know where we're going to. And yet, we're gonna wake up tomorrow and have frozen yogurt. Because frozen yogurt at least make it a little better.

Alex Ferrari 54:23
You know, we are the only creature on the planet that knows that we will not be here eventually.

Steve Kaplan 54:28
Right? And what do we do based on that? Do we all sit home weeping softly writing haiku? No. We wake up, and we say Thai. Thai food

Alex Ferrari 54:39
Thai. Don't do it today. I think Thai,

Steve Kaplan 54:42
Thai, Thai or, or like dark chocolate, dark chocolate of

Alex Ferrari 54:48
course. 80% of the time, Starbucks every day Starbucks.

Steve Kaplan 54:52
I'm gonna spend 325 Because Starbucks will make my eventual descent into death and entropy, you'll make it a little bit more forth. That's great.

Alex Ferrari 55:05
That's amazing. Um, now another question I have for you is, and I'm curious to hear your answer on this the difference between comedy and funny, because there is a difference. There is a major difference.

Steve Kaplan 55:19
Absolutely. I start a lot of my workshops workshops off with a comedy perception test. I give them seven different versions of a man slipping on a banana peel, man slipping on a banana peel man and top hat slipping, man slipping on a banana peel after kicking the dog and slipping on a banana peel after losing his job. Blind man slipping on a banana peel blind man's dog slipping. Man slipping on a banana peel and dying. And then I asked them Okay, so like which one do you think is the funniest? The least funniest, the most comic and the least comic? And they'll go, somebody will go well, what's the difference? And I'll go Excellent question. I'm glad you asked. Select which one you think is the funniest, the least funniest, the most comic and the least comic? I don't answer the question. I just say select which one you think is they couldn't be different? They could be the same? And so then we'll start with, Okay, how many of you here whether it's 20 people or 300? People? How many of you here thought a man slipping on a banana peel was the funniest how many people thought the man slipping on a banana peel after losing his job was the funniest. And so we'll go through all of that. And then at the end, I'll go and I'll say. So here's the answer to which one of these is the funniest. You're all right. You're all correct. Yeah, it's like it's like, don't you feel affirmed? It's like the 60s.

Alex Ferrari 56:47
We all get a participation trophy.

Steve Kaplan 56:50
Because funny is subjective, completely. What you think is funny is different from what you think is funny. And you're both right. But comedy is not subjective comedy is the art of telling what's true, and specifically telling what's true about human beings. So that so that, even if I'm even if I'm creating a moment, with a character that you are not laughing at, if I'm telling the truth about a human being without white washing them, or would that just ignoring some of their defects? It's comedy, even though you might not laugh, at the end of Dr. Strangelove, when he's when slim pickins is writing the bomb down to what we know is our entire extinction. Talk about black comedy. There some people in the audience laugh there's a nervous tenor. Many people don't. But it's not a dramatic moment. Yes, he's got it right. It's a comedic moment, even if you're not laughing. So there's a difference between comedy and funny. Funny is what makes you laugh. And it's different from it for everybody. But comedy is telling the truth, telling the truthful story of a less than perfect person struggling against insurmountable odds with that many of the required skills and tools with which to win yet never giving up hope. And because of that, what I tried to tell writers and directors and performers and executives is don't chase funny. Because Because you're chasing a fraction of the audience. If it works, people will laugh. If it doesn't work, people won't laugh, then then then change it after your previous but tell the truth. Tell the truth in a truthful way, in an unexpected and yet. And yet ultimately. All the way authentic way thanks. And comedy will occur. Also make yourself laugh. I mean, you you're a human being. Right. So if you're not laughing, right, chances are, don't try to out think the audience don't try to think what will they find funny? Well, wouldn't it be funny if I did this? Use your own sense of humor only guided only kind of limited by telling the story honestly. And truthfully, through character and theme.

Alex Ferrari 59:28
I'm going to ask you a deeper question here. When you say and I think this is this is a question that will go through all all all writing, all storytelling, all art in general, is the ability to be honest, be authentic, be truthful, and what stops an artist from doing so? Because as an artist myself and the work that I do, you know, one of the reasons why this podcast has done as well as it has over the years is because I'm completely authentic, and I asked authentically And I want truth. And that's why people gravitated towards it. What stops the artists from doing so? Is it just pure fear of people making fun of them, or of you know, things like that. But I've always found that when I'm honest about my work, whether it be my writing, whether it be like my new book, which is as honest as I could possibly be a film that I direct, when I'm honest about it, that's when that's when the magic is, but it's scarier.

Steve Kaplan 1:00:31
Well, I'm not sure that there's one answer to that. But I think part of that answer is, is not trusting that your story is good enough that they are your that your point of view is good enough. worrying that other people won't enjoy it. worrying that somebody who really knows finances but doesn't know art is telling you I don't think it's funny. Okay, then then I'll look for somebody who does and you won't produce it or you won't. You won't be my agent. But but but I think it's it comes out of a fear is part of it. But it comes out of the sense that that there's the sense that on not enough. For me, a perfect example is the I'm going to pronounce her name wrong. It's the director who directed enough said friends with money. Please give Nicole holofcener Okay. I don't know. I think I think I'm mispronouncing her name. She She. She makes she makes these beautifully crafted. Beautiful movies, comic movies, and there's very little slapstick there's there's no there's there's no big gags there's no you know, there's not a lot of sex scenes. to 13 year olds are not drawn to her movies. And yet, her movies are wonderful. But it's it has a kind of a limited viewership so far. And I think people are worried that if they don't put in the big dick choke, that, that they won't make money or they're they won't sell or, or or the studio will be disappointed. So there's there's fear. And sometimes it's a justified fear. Because, I mean, how many five star restaurants are there out there? And how many McDonald's are out there out there? So if you're, if you're studying to be a chef, should you go to McDonald's and see what's made them so successful?

Alex Ferrari 1:02:57
Different, that are model different to everything?

Steve Kaplan 1:03:00
Yeah, I mean, you, you, you have to strive towards your own sense of excellence. And know that that doesn't translate into a into an economic model, necessarily. Wow.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:17
You've just honestly you've kind of blown my mind a little bit because it just there was that light bulb that just went off in my head when you said, if you're if you're trying to be a chef, if you're training to be a chef, why would you go to McDonald's to see how because they're very successful. Yeah, but it's a different kind of success, as opposed to why wouldn't you go to a Gordon Ramsay restaurant and and see how he's doing it and why you're fine dining restaurant that has the five

Steve Kaplan 1:03:42
let's not say Gordon Ramsay, because I don't think that fair. It's still that.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:47
Fair. It's one of the few chefs I know. I'm Wolfgang. I hate you you omelet? Yeah, exactly. But, but I think one of the issues with with Hollywood in general is to so many people go to watch studio movies, that are financial vehicles, they're made for money. They're not made, particularly for story. Every once in a while someone sticks sneaks in a store. Every once in a while you get one of these, you know that's has money behind it has big stars and has a story, but they're becoming rarer and rarer. much rarer.

Steve Kaplan 1:04:22
But you know what the studio system does so well, is taking stories that already work and visualizing them correct. That's why the that's why the Marvel Knights do so well. Yeah, because those stories were great when they were 10 cent comics. And these great craftsmen and technicians and great actors, visualize them for us. But the story's already there. The characters are already there and and to give them credit, they don't screw the characters up. The Marvel characters were screwed up human beings to start are off with when they were 10 and 12 cent comics and they're still screwed up human beings. All the movie said was honor that as opposed to justice DC movies in which they can figure out that the stories came out of where we do right. Where the Justice League we do right because that's the right thing to do. Guys not enough really, really. And so they they kind of veer veer between let's go as dark as possible. And let's or let's have lots of wisecracks they still have I haven't seen Aqua Man I understand Aqua Man is a little bit better

Alex Ferrari 1:05:37
than but Wonder Woman was wonderful. I thought Wonder Woman was wonderful. Wonder Woman was good. From the DC world

Steve Kaplan 1:05:44
that is from the, from the DC world. I mean, it was it was female empowerment. And it was in a in a period. That wasn't the modern day. So I think they they kind of solved it in a good way. But you know, I think what what what movies do so well is take existing stories, and and help us see them for who they are like Lord of the Rings. Whereas if you want to see a really good movie, take a look at an independent see what's coming out of Sundance. See, see what somebody has made? That wasn't made through the studio system, but made because this is the story I want to tell like eighth grade. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:06:29
I haven't seen it yet. But I hear it's amazing. Oh,

Steve Kaplan 1:06:31
it's it's so good. And, and it obviously or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm totally wrong about this. But it's but to me, it obviously wasn't made after a story conference at Sony.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:44
No, I'm almost positive. That's not since one of your books is called the hidden tools of comedy. Can you give us a few hidden tools?

Steve Kaplan 1:06:53
Well, I've already given you a couple. Okay, we start off with, with the paradigm what I call the comedy equation, comedies about an ordinary guy or gal, Jackie Gleason used to call him a Moke struggling against insurmountable odds without many of the required skills and tools with which to win yet never giving up hope. Now, from that paradigm, we draw usable, practical tools, the tool of winning comedy gives your characters that permission to win. Not that they're trying to be funny, but they're trying to when I do I do an exercise in my in my workshop, I asked three people who I make sure are not performers. And I tell them that they're lawyers, and the most important court case, in the in their careers began in a courthouse, four blocks away five minutes ago. I tell them, I say to them, what what would what what should you do to solve the problem? And they are people in the audience say they should run there? And I'll ask them, What would actors do. And they say, act as we talked about it, they'd create dialogue. So then I tell them, Okay, for muscle memory, just run out the door, your three lawyers, you're five minutes late, four blocks away, run out the door. So they run out the door, then I bring them each individually. And I say, Okay, here's the crazy thing, for some crazy reason. You have to be the second person out the door, don't tell the others now bring each of the three yen out to them, you have to be second. I'll bring them all in. Now, these are not performers. So I bring them all in. And I say most important case of the three lawyers most important case happened starting five minutes ago started five minutes ago in a courthouse four blocks away, go. And what will happen is they'll rush the door, and then begin this odd little path of trying to trying to get through the door. And occasionally somebody will figure it out. But most often I'll have to side coach and say, I give you the permission to do what you need to do in order to win. And what I usually do is I usually pick two big guys and a tiny girl, right? And at some point, one of the big guys gets the idea. Oh, I don't have to be a gentleman picks up the girl throws her outside leaves, so he can be second. It's an experiment. It doesn't work the same way all the time. It doesn't work all the time. But invariably the audience laughs and I'll bring the people back out and I'll say, who directed that? And they'll say no one. And I'll say to the audience, I'm sorry, Directors. I'm sorry. We don't need directors and I'll say who wrote that scene? And they'll say no one oh they'll say you did Mr. Kaplan because now I said I didn't write it. I just set up this situation. What happened at the door? That was that was you. And so I'll say you don't need you don't need directors. You don't even need writers you just need characters who are given the permission to do what they need to do in order to win. Because when they were doing that weird dance at the door, they weren't trying to be funny. They were simply trying to solve a problem and unsolvable problem as it turns out, but simply tried to solve a problem. So rather than trying to be funny, characters are given the permission to do what they need to do in order to win. Which is why when Woody Allen is arguing with some guy on a movie on the line in a movie, he's able to drag Marshall McLuhan out from behind a poster in any Hall to win his arguments.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:34
Brilliant. That was such a brilliant move I love

Steve Kaplan 1:10:37
ya. Although now that I find that that Woody Allen is really a creepy, yes, yes. You know, that's unfortunately, not all the best people are are great artists. And he happens to be one of the not great people. But right. But so, so winning, the idea that comedy gives you the permission to win is one of the tools non hero, not that not a comic, you're not a fool, not the ridiculous person, but simply somebody who lacks some if not all the essential skills and tools with which to win. Straight line wavy line. Most people think of comedians or comics as funny people, and then they're the straight man, the straight men who kind of just set the funny people up to do something funny, right? And, and what what the tool of straight line wavy line does is it recognizes the fact that that's a false dynamic. John Cleese once said that when they started Monty Python, they thought that comedy was watching somebody do something silly. They later came to realize that comedy is watching somebody watch somebody do something silly. watching somebody watched somebody do something silly. So that in in a, in a comic dynamic, you have somebody who's blind to a problem or creating the problem, like Kramer, and somebody who's struggling with the problem, but because they are not here, or they can't solve the problem like Jerry. So if you look at comedy, if you look at sitcoms, you're always seeing a straight line, somebody who's kind of blind to who they are, or what they're doing, like Joey friends, and somebody who kind of notices it, but doesn't quite know exactly how to deal with it, or what to say to it. Like Chandler. And so you have this dynamic. And and the dynamic can switch because it's not about character. It's about focus. Who is the story about at that moment? Who's in focus? And so, so those are some of the tools in the hidden tools of comedy, along with art types, comic premise, metaphoric relationships, a lot of stuff also, so 280 pages of genius

Alex Ferrari 1:12:55
itself, obviously, obviously, sir, I know you haven't mentioned it a few times. But let's talk about you two books that you have out there. The hidden tools of comedy, you

Steve Kaplan 1:13:03
mean, this book? Yes. This book?

Alex Ferrari 1:13:07
Yes, those two books? Yes,

Steve Kaplan 1:13:08
I should mention that.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:11
Tell us about your your older book is the for the book first came out was a hidden tools of comedy, which is done very, very well. So tell us a little bit about that?

Steve Kaplan 1:13:22
Well, like I said, it's a it basically talks about the things that are not taught at AFI, or USC, or NYU. Because people still think comedy is, well, let's do something funny. Let's do some gags. And it talks about the things that actually create, increase or decrease the comedic elements in a scene. And what you can do because it's not about, well, you just born funny. It's about if you give a character skills, if you have them be a hero, you're creating a dramatic moment. And a skill could be something as simple as awareness, kind of so in a character's aware of his situation, that could depress him. That's a dramatic moment. But if a character isn't aware that he's kind of lively, just going along, not realizing how screwed up they are, and how hopeless their situation is. That's a comedic moment. So you can actually increase or decrease the comedic elements in a scene or the dramatic ohms in a scene simply by giving or taking away skills for your character.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:32
Got it. And then your new book, The comedic hero's journey, we've kind of touched upon a lot of elements

Steve Kaplan 1:14:37
that, that basically it kind of is a riff on the, on the hero's journey, and talks about so what happens in the comic hero's journey, what what differences are there, what tweaks you have to make and how is that journey different either either in a great way or in a subtle way different from The dramatic hero's journey. And it's, it's, as I say, it's serious story structure for fabulously funny film.

Alex Ferrari 1:15:08
Now, I also heard you had a few workshops coming up. Yeah,

Steve Kaplan 1:15:12
um, what one of the things I do is I go around and do these, for the most part, their two day workshops. And you can find out all about them on my website, Kaplan comedy calm that's Kaplan with a K comedy with a C, because if I spelled comedy with a K, that would make me a hack. So it's got to be Kaplan comedy all one word.com. So we're doing one in Belgium, in Brussels on February 16, and 17th. I don't speak Belgium, but they speak comedy. So I think we'll be okay. And then I'm in Los Angeles in March, march 2, and third. And I'm in London on April 27, and 28th. And I think I might be going to New York or San Francisco later in the year, but those still have to be worked out.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:06
That's, that's amazing. And because you mentioned Belgium, in Brussels. What, how does comedy because comedy doesn't travel well, what's funny in one country is not funny in another. It does. But if you but funny doesn't a comedy does.

Steve Kaplan 1:16:23
Right? It you know what the language may be may be different. I've taught these workshops in Singapore, in Melbourne, in Paris, in Kiev, the language may be different. culture, customs government may be different. But people are the same. We all were all born. We all go to school. We all have secrets from our parents. Our parents have secrets from us. We all want to fall in love or get as much love however we define it any way we can. We have relationships or married we have kids. We have parents we have uncle's need. Human beings are the same all over the world even though we might use different words for different objects, even though some customs might be different. But but people are the people stay the same. And what I've noticed going around the world is that I can show a clip from an American movie, or or a American television show and people laugh because they understand what's happening to those people in that situation. And and and so so there's people all over the world can laugh at Groundhog Day, even if they don't speak English as the first language.

Alex Ferrari 1:17:44
Fair enough. Now I'm gonna ask a few questions. Last questions. I asked all my guests. Okay, what advice about Libra?

Steve Kaplan 1:17:50
My favorite color blue, long walks on the beach. I was born a small

Alex Ferrari 1:17:55
child.

Steve Kaplan 1:17:58
I was born in a very early age.

Alex Ferrari 1:18:01
That's great. That was actually that's a great line. That's a great.

Steve Kaplan 1:18:06
That's my that's from my palm reading. I see you are born in a very early age.

Alex Ferrari 1:18:13
I have to tell you, I will steal that for parties. Okay. Now, what advice would you give a screenwriter or comedic writer wanting to break into the business today?

Steve Kaplan 1:18:23
Okay, I would recommend three things. Buy your first five books obviously, that's actually not my recommendation. But thank you for thank you for putting that out there. I would recommend three things. One, take an improv class. Even if you don't want to perform even if you're not looking to be on SNL, or part of UCB. Comedy is an actor centric art form. It's about the character. So the some of the best training you can get is to be is to be in a class where you pretend you practice being a character seeing through a character's eyes hearing through a character's ears. So that's the first thing. The second thing I would say is that as you're writing, and we're talking about screenwriters, right, yes. Hear your stuff read out loud. You cannot figure out what's going what's happening just based upon you and your screen or you and your your legal pad. You have to get people in a room halftone reading parts, half of them just listening. Tape it because you're going to go into a coma at certain parts where it's not working and listen to what is happening when human beings say your words in context. I also I also suggest that you have wine and cheese,

Alex Ferrari 1:19:48
much wine and plenty one plenty,

Steve Kaplan 1:19:51
plenty one, but you have to you have to hear it read out loud because comedy doesn't exist in your head or in a vacuum and Third thing is, is that no one ever got a job because you they have, they have a great resume with a great font. It's, it's all about who you know, and who you have gone to college with, or went to summer camp with. So one of the things I tell people to do is, is all the stories that they've heard about, about some guy who, who went to a dentist, and the dentist also did the teeth of Jim Carrey, and they got those things are obnoxious, but something like that does happen. Oh, yeah. So that, so that, what you need to do is you need to make a list of everybody who you've ever known, or might have known or stood in back of a line at Starbucks. And you want to make sure that you you maintain those connections, and you want to maintain, you want to know that you have no idea where your next job is coming from. So your job is to be out there in the universe, say yes to the universe, I don't want to go to the screening co you don't know who you're gonna meet, I want to take this class, take it, you don't know who you're gonna meet. Because your next job is going to come from somebody who knows you. And that's not networking, just networking for networking sake, like, you know, the when you're at a party, and somebody is looking over your shoulder to see who else came in the door, because you don't have any idea who's going to help you. And the best way to figure out who's going to help you is for you to help other people. Be on a film crew. Yep. Help out. Be part of a reading. You know, hold it, hold, hold a microphone, hold a boom, and see where it leads you. Because there are a million ways to break into the business. But you can't break into the business sitting at home wondering how am I going to break into the business?

Alex Ferrari 1:21:57
I was talking to Daniel NOF, the creator of Carnival, and and he said he's like ours is the only business that has larceny in it. How do you break into the business? How to? And he's like, it's true. Like you never like how do I break into the cookie business? Like no one says that. People always want to break in or, you know, how do I break through the door? It's always larceny involved. Breaking into this business.

Steve Kaplan 1:22:23
Well, I'll say I'll say there's one other thing. Yeah, they're there. It's really simple. But there are there are only two rules. Rule one, number one be brilliant. Yes. Rule number two, let people know about it.

Alex Ferrari 1:22:41
That's, that's it, man that

Steve Kaplan 1:22:43
said, if you've got a story, and you've written a script, and nobody wants it, turn into a novel. Make it up, make it a podcast, write a blog, get it out there. Let people know about it. Because you don't know what's going to happen. I had a client, a guy I worked with on a trip to Australia through through Screen Australia and film Victoria. And he wrote this wonderful script about a guy on the Asperger's spectrum, who was who came up with a way of of getting relationship for himself. And he wrote the script. I thought the script was funny. Nobody wanted it. Especially Australia is the kind of place where you get government funding. And the government doesn't want to fund silly comedies. They want to fund serious works about itinerant inarticulate sheep herders who are on a on a lighthouse in Tasmania who haven't talked to anybody in 10 years. That's still fun. Yes, yes. Yes. So I so what he did was, he said, eff this. I think it's great story. I'm not getting anywhere. I'm not a young, I'm not a spring chicken. I've made the bad decision to be over 50. So I'm going to write this as a novel. So he wrote us a novel, it got published. And it got optioned by the same people who turned down his screenplay. And as part of his option, he gets to write the first screen. So so so there's, there's more than one way to skin a cat. So when I was doing a project for HBO, they had this performance space in Hollywood. I think now, it's gotten taken over by Comedy Central. And we we had this one actress who did did a show and she was pretty funny, but she for some reason, she wasn't getting any jobs. So she wrote a one person show for herself. And she did it at the at the HBO workspace, which no longer is there. So don't don't ask me to share sure to get you in into the HBO because they're no longer there. And we did it and people are making came to see it and people laughed it. They loved it, nothing happened. She didn't just say well, I guess I'll just have to work at Starbucks now for the rest of my life. She rented a theater on on Melrose, and ran it one night a week for like a year. And she went to the kind of groups that she thought would come to see it as she sold tickets. One night. A woman named Rita Wilson Kang, Rita Wilson is Tom Hanks wife, and Chris Rita Wilson was intrigued by her title, My Big Fat Greek Wedding wedding. Yeah. And she saw it, and she saw near Vardalos to this one person show. And she brought Tom Hanks the next week, and play till they made it. And it was the highest grossing independent romantic comedy ever made, because she had something brilliant. She wouldn't take no for an answer. She didn't just send the script, you know, to the same person over and over again, she said, if they don't want this, I'm just going to keep showing it till somebody comes along. Who does want it? So So Kalahasti brill, be brilliant. Let people know about it. And and while you're not taking no for an answer, figure out a way to not live on your credit card. Exactly. Please. That'll should come. That'll shit. We'll come back to bite you in the ass.

Alex Ferrari 1:26:27
Oh, and then some my friend and then some. Now, can you tell me what book had the biggest impact on your life or career? Besides drones, obviously.

Steve Kaplan 1:26:35
Wow I guess I guess I would, I would have to say, Lord of the Rings. Okay. I read that. I read that when I was a kid. And it took me to a different world. It took me to a different world when I was I was not a very happy kid. And it's it showed me the power of the amount of imagination. So I knew I knew even if the world wasn't working out for me a world in my imagination could so maybe that's what that maybe that's where I should go.

Alex Ferrari 1:27:18
Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life

Unknown Speaker 1:27:29
yeah you can't force funny.

Alex Ferrari 1:27:36
Amen. Not spawning. Now. Um, what are three of your favorite films of all time?

Steve Kaplan 1:27:44
Ah, Godfather, okay, Groundhog Groundhog's Day. And I the three way tie between It's A Wonderful Life. Meet me in St. Louis. And oh, god dammit. Gene Kelly dancing in the rain.

Alex Ferrari 1:28:13
Okay, Singing in the Rain thing in the rain. Singing in the rain. And then just for you.

Steve Kaplan 1:28:21
Before we tie this thing

Alex Ferrari 1:28:24
Oh, such a great film. I love this thing. I see that's a movie that holds that hold still to this day. It's sad because

Steve Kaplan 1:28:31
it starts with loss. Yeah, no it starts it starts death Yep. And there's death is death near the near the end there's sadness and death.

Alex Ferrari 1:28:41
Now I normally don't ask this question but I have to ask you three of your favorite screenplays of all time that when you wrote your you know comedic stuff that you read, you're like Jesus, this is good. A

Steve Kaplan 1:28:53
Groundhog Day? Uh huh. But the finished script not not like right unfortunately Annie Hall

Alex Ferrari 1:29:04
Yes, I look I know that we all apologize for it. It is still a really he ruined it. He really ruined it but it's still a brilliant piece of art regardless of the artist.

Steve Kaplan 1:29:16
And every Billy Wilder screenplay ever

Alex Ferrari 1:29:24
pretty much Absolutely. Anyone listening if you guys don't not know who Billy Wilder is please do yourself a favor.

Steve Kaplan 1:29:30
How could you not know who Billy well? No, there's no muscle

Alex Ferrari 1:29:34
like there's a lot of look there's a lot of young uns listening or watching this. Please go watch something like

Steve Kaplan 1:29:42
the apart like at Sunset Boulevard. Please please go

Alex Ferrari 1:29:47
go go read a bit. Now. Where can people find you in your work sir?

Steve Kaplan 1:29:51
They can find me at Kaplan comedy calm. They my Twitter. Handle is At SK comedy you can find me on Facebook Kaplan comedy or you can find me. Now I have 3000 odd and they are they are odd but I have 3000 Odd friends your Facebook cuts you off at 5000 So you better another dozen 2000 come in I'm stuck on the other hand Facebook will steal all your information and sell it to other people so maybe don't

Alex Ferrari 1:30:28
fair enough

Steve Kaplan 1:30:29
and and all my books are on Amazon. Although you can you can if you're in the United States you can order directly from me and get an autographed copy. There you go Steve, which in some markets increases value and others decreases value.

Alex Ferrari 1:30:50
Save it has been an epic epic interview and conversation my friend. Thank you so much for for dropping some knowledge bombs on the on the tribe today.

Steve Kaplan 1:30:59
It has anybody ever told you that you remind me of Lin Manuel Miranda.

Alex Ferrari 1:31:03
No, that's the first one I appreciate that. Thank you very much but I've not I've never once gotten lynmarie

Steve Kaplan 1:31:10
if you if you spoken cockney a little bit I'm very Poppins return I

Alex Ferrari 1:31:16
listen, I'm a very I'm a big fan of Hamilton. So I take that with a great, great compliment. Thank you, sir. A pleasure talking to you, sir.

Steve Kaplan 1:31:24
Thank you. Same here.

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Christopher Nolan Screenplays (Download)

Christopher Nolan is one of the greatest filmmakers of his generation. Being a writer/director really sets him apart from his contemporaries. His screenplays are a master class in the craft. We decided to put together an easy resource for screenwriters and filmmakers to be able to download Christopher Nolan Screenplays and study his unique storytelling methods.

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DUNKIRK (2017)

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INTERSTELLAR (2014)

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THE DARK KNIGHT RISES (2012)

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INCEPTION (2010)

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THE DARK KNIGHT (2008)

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THE PRESTIGE (2006)

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MEMENTO (2000)

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FOLLOWING (1998)

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THE KEYS OF THE STREET (1997)

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Nolan has built a reputation in the film industry as a grand showman and visual magician firmly in command of his craft.

He’s infamous for assembling his complex and intricately layered plots like a puzzle, presenting them in such a way that respects the audience’s intelligence while simultaneously indulging their desire for exhilarating escapist entertainment.  He tells stories on a tremendously large scale, and it’s all too easy to be swept away the sheer scope of his vision and ambition.

Best known for his record-shattering, paradigm-shifting DARK KNIGHT TRILOGY, Nolan’s meteoric rise to consistently unprecedented heights of financial and cultural success has established him as one of those rare filmmakers who are able to harness the full power of the Hollywood studio system to his benefit.

It wasn’t always this way, however– Nolan’s ascent to the stratosphere of visionary directors was preceded by a long period of obscurity and rejection that any aspiring filmmaker can relate to.

Christopher Nolan was born in 1970 in London, the 2nd of 3 boys born to a British advertising executive and an American teacher.  The jarring culture split that the Nolan boys experienced through their childhood is perhaps best exemplified by the difference in accents between Nolan and his younger brother, Jonathan– who would go on to become his writing partner and a close professional collaborator.

Also, check out Chris Nolan’s Screenplay Collection for PDF Download

Nolan speaks in an elegant British lilt, while Jonathan’s all-American speech patterns reflect the fact that the Nolan boys spent a great deal of time living in Chicago as well as the UK.

From an early age, Nolan found himself enamored with cinema, and after seeing George Lucas’ STAR WARS at age 7, he was inspired to make Super 8mm stop-motion movies with his father’s film camera.  He would go on to attend University College London, where he studied English literature in the absence of a film program.

In lieu of a formalized education in filmmaking, he established an on-campus cinema society with Emma Thomas– his classmate, future producing partner, and future wife– in addition to devouring the works of key influences like Stanley Kubrick, Ridley Scott, Orson Welles, and Michael Mann.

At age nineteen, he made his first film, TARANTELLA– an 8mm short that was eventually shown on English television.  That development encouraged the burgeoning director to make another short called LARCENY, which debuted at the 1995 Cambridge Film Festival.

For quite some time afterwards, Nolan toiled in obscurity, paying the bills with corporate and industrial films he was able to commission.  All the while, he was applying to various British film organizations in an unsuccessful attempt to obtain grant money for another narrative effort.

Perhaps disheartened by the rejection, and emboldened by the take-no-prisoners, do-it-yourself attitude of the 90’s indie scene, Nolan decided to take matters into his own hands.


THE DIRECTORS SERIES is an educational/editorial collection of video and text essays by filmmaker Cameron Beyl, dedicated to appreciating and deconstructing the work of contemporary and classic film directors.

5.1: THE NON-LINEAR NEO-NOIRS is the first chapter of THE DIRECTORS SERIES’ examination into the films and careers of director Christopher Nolan, covering his pair of breakout independent neo-noirs:


DOODLEBUG (1997)

After marrying Emma in 1997, Christopher Nolan enlisted her help to produce his third short film, DOODLEBUG.  The three minute piece– the earliest of Nolan’s publicly-available works– stars the British actor Jeremy Theobald, who would go on to headline Nolan’s first feature a year later.

Shot on grainy 16mm black and white film, Nolan imbues the film with a kinetic energy at odds with the claustrophobic setting.  Nolan’s idea of a man chasing a bug around his apartment, only to find out the bug is a smaller version of himself, foreshadows the narrative sleight of hand he’d bring to his feature work as well as his inventiveness with practical visual effects.

Also check out: Christopher Nolan’s Micro-Budget First Films: Doodlebug & The Following


FOLLOWING (1998)

Around the time of the making of his short DOODLEBUG (1997), director Christopher Nolan found himself the victim of a burglary.  Whereas most people would be understandably distraught if their apartment had been broken into and their belongings stolen, Nolan’s chief reaction was curiosity.

He wondered what the burglars were thinking as they rifled through his things– what conclusions could they come to about his life based solely on the artifacts and totems of his existence?  In time, he would shape these musings into a story for a feature-length film he called FOLLOWING.

Having learned his lesson not to rely on the favor of unsympathetic British film institutions, Nolan fashioned the film as a lean, mean, razor-taut little thriller he could shoot for as little money as possible.

Taking the idea of a low-budget production to its very extreme, Nolan self-financed the film with the earnings from his day job– stretching the value of his dollar by shooting on weekends, employing friends and family as cast and crew, and commandeering their homes and flats as free locations.

This approach naturally caused the shoot to drag on in fits and starts over the course of a year, but when all was said and done, Nolan had his first feature film in the can– and it only cost him six thousand dollars.

Jeremy Theobald’s protagonist is not given a name– a fitting choice for a lonely writer who lives vicariously through the strangers he follows around his grimy London neighborhood.

Owing to the down-and-dirty nature of the film’s production circumstances, Theobald’s performance isn’t exactly the most natural or convincing, but it’s compelling enough to sustain the audience through the breathlessly-brief 70 minute runtime.

It helps that he’s given a charming and enigmatic antagonist in the form of Alex Haw’s Cobb.  Cobb is an impeccably-dressed, charismatic thief– his cavalier philosophy towards burglary as a cathartic form of human connection is presented as seductive and cool, almost like a boarding school Tyler Durden.

FOLLOWING borrows many elements from the well-trod noir genre, not the least of which is the inclusion of a blonde, morally-ambiguous femme fatale– played here by Lucy Russell.  There’s a photograph by Theobald’s character’s desk of Marilyn Monroe, and one can’t help but notice Russell’ eerie resemblance to the iconic movie star.

Like Theobald, Russell also isn’t given a name– she’s credited only as The Blonde, a conceit that lends some fuel to critiques that Nolan’s female characters on the whole are not particularly well-developed.

Russell is perfectly convincing within the film’s framework, but the stock-character nature of The Blonde’s personality doesn’t afford her many opportunities to transcend the material. Funnily enough, however, Russell would be the only member of FOLLOWING’s cast to go on to a larger acting career.

Nolan has pioneered the use of large-format film mediums like IMAX to create a super-sized canvas for his high-stakes narratives, but even within the square confines of FOLLOWING’s 16mm frame, he’s able to convey a palpable, larger-than-life approach.
While the scope of his later work would command some of the highest budgets the industry has ever seen, the single largest expense for FOLLOWING’s scrappy production was the 16mm film stock itself. Nolan and his crew conserved as much of their precious stock as possible, rehearsing extensively prior to shooting so they could nab what they wanted in one or two takes.

Indeed, his insistence on celluloid is what separates Nolan from his peers, most of whom got their own no-budget projects off the ground by embracing the relative cheapness of digital video.

FOLLOWING’s photochemical cinematography points to Nolan’s purist attitude towards the medium, and foreshadows his eventual position as one of the industry’s most vocal defenders of celluloid in the face of digital’s unstoppable advance. In shooting FOLLOWING, Nolan acted as his own cameraman, utilizing mostly natural light to expose his grainy black and white images.

The majority of Nolan’s camerawork is handheld, which gives the film a kinetic and swift energy thanks to the fluid mobility and quick setup time afforded by the technique.

While Nolan used handheld camerawork primarily as a way to keep costs down, he was concerned that his choice might also lead to the impression that the film was amateurish, or that he didn’t know what he was doing.  To counter these concerns, he employed the smooth, polished movement of a dolly track during the interrogation scene that opens the film as a way to communicate to the audience that the predominant use of a handheld camerawork was a deliberate, stylistic choice.

While Nolan essentially acted as a one-man crew during production, he used post-production as an opportunity to enlist the collaborative efforts of musician David Julyan, who provides FOLLOWING with a pulsing, grimy score comprised of droning synths and jittery staccato tones.

By virtue of its shoestring budget, FOLLOWING’s aesthetic is easily the most radical within Nolan’s canon.  It speaks in a language born of necessity and deprivation, a world apart from the style that he’d solidify in his studio work.  However, FOLLOWING does establish techniques and ideas that Nolan would further develop in the years to come.

For instance, he’s gained a bit of a reputation as a meticulous dresser, showing up to set in a business-casual wardrobe he’s refined into something of a uniform.  This aspect of his personality makes its way into his films, as many of his characters are given a palpable sartorial sensibility that’s high on functional style and low on extraneous embellishment.

Even in the context of a no-budget film like FOLLOWING, Nolan still places an emphasis on his characters’ costuming, using it as a story tool to highlight the strategic advantages of a presentable appearance in the world of burglary.

The structuring of FOLLOWING’s narrative signals another key component of Nolan’s aesthetic: the non-linearity of time.  Simply put: time is never a straight line in Nolan’s films– whether it’s BATMAN BEGINS utilizing a recurring flashback motif, MEMENTO unfolding entirely in backwards chronological order, INCEPTION playing out against multiple parallel planes of space-time connected by a relativistic relationship, or INTERSTELLAR exploring gravity’s ability to warp our perception of time itself.

Christopher Nolan cites this aspect of his aesthetic as being inspired at a very young age by Graham Swift’s novel “Waterland” and its parallel structuring of time.  FOLLOWING pays tribute to this conceit by jumbling the order of its scenes non-sequentially– a decision made in large part to disguise the story’s major twist.

Indeed, the only visual clue Nolan gives to clue us on in which shard of the fractured timeline we’re in is via Theobald’s changing appearance from scraggly slacker to polished businessman and then to his final form as a defeated mound of ground-up beef.

While presented as something of a random shuffling of loosely connected scenes, Nolan’s ordering of the narrative is actually rather surgical, meticulously designed to enhance the impact of the mounting drama while constantly challenging our assumptions about what’s going on.

And just to show that the integrity of his story isn’t dependent on the gimmick of its nonlinear presentation, he even goes as far as assembling the scenes into proper chronological order in a completely separate linear that’s no less surprising or structurally sound and including it on the Criterion Collection’s 2012 Blu Ray release.

Just as the Batman logo on Theobald’s apartment door foreshadows his eventual cinematic involvement with the Caped Crusader, FOLLOWING’s unique structure portends the puzzle-like, revelation-based storytelling style that Nolan would build his career on.

Like so many no-budget films of its kind, the completion of FOLLOWING in 1998 wasn’t greeted with instantaneous acclaim or a great deal of attention.  It almost even didn’t get finished in the first place, had it not been for the saving grace of indie producer Peter Broderick, who secured completion funds after screening Nolan’s rough cut.

Thanks to its lack of star power and technical polish, FOLLOWING was shut out from several major film festivals– event those devoted to truly independent cinema like Sundance or Slamdance (in Slamdance’s defense, however, they would eventually accept the film into their festival after Nolan submitted his completely re-tooled final cut a year after his rejection).

FOLLOWING would ultimately premiere at the San Francisco Film Festival, gathering modest (yet consistent) praise as an engaging, if obscure, little thriller.  The film would find a distributor in Zeitgeist Films, who would release it to a tepid box office haul of fifty thousand dollars.

Nolan didn’t have much cause for concern though– by the time FOLLOWING had wound through its interminable festival circuit and theatrical release window, he had already optioned the script for a follow-up that would give him the breakthrough he needed and desired.

As Nolan’s career has since played out, the thematic similarities between FOLLOWING and his 2010 dreamscape thriller INCEPTION have become more pronounced.  In his essay “‘Nolan Begins”, former chief film critic for Variety, Scott Foundas, goes so far as to dub FOLLOWING a first draft for INCEPTION, citing that both films are in effect “a heist of the mind” masterminded by a slickly-dressed career criminal named Cobb.

On its own merits, FOLLOWING is a fascinating insight into the early voice of a massively influential contemporary filmmaker and the raw directorial powers he could exert with minimal resources and a tireless drive.


MEMENTO (2000)

As if shooting and releasing his first feature film (1998’s FOLLOWING) wasn’t momentous enough an undertaking, around this time director Christopher Nolan was also undergoing a big move across the Atlantic to pursue his aspirations as a filmmaker in Los Angeles.  He stopped first in Chicago to meet up with his brother Jonathan, who would be accompanying him on the cross-country drive.

As they drove west, Jonathan pitched an idea for a short story called “Memento Mori”, about a man suffering from acute short-term memory loss.  Instantly taken with the idea, Nolan encouraged his brother to continue developing it even as he repurposed the concept into an entirely separate story. The brothers worked independently from each other for some time afterward, giving each other notes on their respective stories while not directly adapting what the other was doing.

As such, the two finished works are very dissimilar.  Nolan’s finished screenplay– simply titled MEMENTO– was taken by Emma Thomas to Newmarket Films, where executives reportedly hailed the script as one of the most innovative they had ever read.  With a greenlight to make MEMENTO for $4.5 million over 25 shooting days,  Nolan finally had a chance to make his big break– but in order to make the best of it, he had to move quickly.

MEMENTO marks the first time that Nolan would work with established talent, but very few know just how big of a name he almost had.  Before scheduling conflicts caused him to drop out, none other than Brad Pitt was originally attached to star in the role of protagonist Leonard Shelby, a former insurance claims investigator suffering from anterograde amnesia.

The role was eventually filled by Guy Pearce, who delivers a breathlessly fierce performance as a man out to avenge the brutal rape and murder of his wife, despite the fact that he can’t remember what he did two minutes ago.  The character of Leonard Shelby is one of the more peculiar protagonists in American cinema– driving a Jaguar he doesn’t remember how he obtained, and wearing an ill-fitting suit that he’s pretty sure he didn’t buy.

Incapable of storing memories in his mind, he instead tattoos his flesh as a way to remember the clues he needs to find his wife’s killer.  As such, he’s vulnerable to the designs of others with malevolent intentions, and the nature of his illness means that he can’t fully trust any relationship he has.  One of these ambiguously-defined allies is Carrie-Ann Moss’ Natalie, a cocktail waitress whose boyfriend troubles might have more to do with Leonard than he realizes.

Fresh off the breakout success of THE MATRIX, Moss was imaginably quite helpful in securing her co-star Joe Pantoliano for the role of Teddy, an undercover cop whose eagerness to help Leonard find his wife’s killer can’t shake a profound sense of suspiciousness about him.

Seasoned character actors Stephen Tobolowsky and Mark Boone Junior also appear, with the former as a case study of Leonard’s with a similar condition and the latter as a self-advantageous motel clerk who is surprisingly honest about how he profits off Leonard’s memory loss.

MEMENTO represents a huge step up for Nolan in the visual department, thanks to a budget that’s quite generous by indie standards. On the most basic level, Nolan graduates from the square 16mm frame to the anamorphic 35mm gauge– an upgrade boosted by his first collaboration with cinematographer Wally Pfister, who would go on to become an integral creative partner for Nolan throughout his subsequent work.

Pfister’s eye for stark contrast, subdued color, and naturalistic lighting mesh perfectly with Nolan’s gritty vision of a slightly-heightened reality.  MEMENTO’s use of color informs its innovative and distinct non-linear structure, alternating between color and monochromatic sequences in an effort to orient the audience as to where they currently stand in the timeline.

The color blue in particular becomes a potent visual signifier, appearing on doors, hotel room walls, bars, and even Leonard’s suit, almost as if they were signposts for him to follow.

Nolan scraps FOLLOWING’s shaky handheld camerawork in favor of an elegant, fluid approach that favors dollies, cranes, and steadicam shots and signals his desire to merge classical filmmaking techniques with radical, almost-Cubist storytelling structures.  Returning composer David Julyan serves as one of the few stylistic carryovers from FOLLOWING, crafting a brooding suite of Vangelis-style synth cues that manages to evoke old-school film noir despite its inherent electronic modernity.

MEMENTO is perhaps best-known for being “that film that plays in reverse order”, but the conceit is far from a gimmick employed to sell tickets.  Building from FOLLOWING’s earlier innovations with the idea, MEMENTO solidifies the use of nonlinear storytelling devices as a major component of Nolan’s artistic aesthetic.

Just as FOLLOWING’s deceptively-random ordering of scenes proves an effective way to navigate its labyrinth of deception, so too does MEMENTO’s unique structure become a key factor in the successful telling of its story.

In order for the audience to empathize with his protagonist’s condition, Christopher Nolan felt the most appropriate course of action would be to tell the story in backwards chronological order– thus emulating, in a cinematic sense, what it would be like to have no short-term memory; deprived of crucial orientating information and context that we usually take for granted.  It’s a radical idea– one that requires a delicate balance of finesse that a lesser filmmaker could easily stumble over.

Nolan wisely uses the opening titles as an opportunity to prep his audience for his unconventional storytelling, lingering over a closeup shot of a hand shaking a developing Polaroid picture — or rather, un-developing, as the audience slowly realizes they’re watching the action unfold in backwards motion.

He then shows us the immediate aftermath of Teddy’s cold-blooded execution before showing us the crucial moment itself.  Its also worth noting that this opening sequence wasn’t simply shot and and then reversed in the edit suite.  Nolan and company actually ran the film backwards through the camera on set– an act that reinforces his career-long commitment to capturing special effects in-camera as much as possible.

Discontent with simply presenting the film in backwards order, Nolan takes an extra step: the insertion of a parallel, forward-moving storyline that sees Leonard languishing in his motel room while talking into a telephone about his condition.

Nolan separates these scenes from the A-plot by rendering them in expressionistic black and white handheld photography, in effect creating a bridge between FOLLOWING’s scrappy shoestring style and the ambitious classical style he’d adopt for the rest of his career.

These brief, recurring interludes give us crucial bits of backstory and context about Leonard’s memory loss without subjecting us to tedious or unnecessary exposition.

However, its within these scenes that Nolan plants the seeds for MEMENTO’s big narrative twist.  This pair of parallel timelines almost-effortlessly converges at the story’s apex– a transition point that Nolan marks with a color fade so subtle that many viewers tend to miss it entirely.  As he did with FOLLOWING, Nolan would subsequently assemble an alternate, aprochryphal cut of MEMENTO in proper chronological order, including it as an easter egg on the film’s home video release.

MEMENTO premiered at the 2000 Venice Film Festival to widespread critical acclaim.  Executives from the major studios echoed the festival circuit’s warm embrace of the film, yet they were reluctant to claim it for distribution.

The sheer power of Nolan’s vision was undeniable, but they feared that audiences would be too confused by the backwards ordering of the film.  Eventually, Newmarket Films took it upon themselves to distribute– a risky move that paid off in spades when MEMENTO debuted to healthy box office and rave reviews that hailed it as one of the most original and refreshing films in years.

Come awards season, MEMENTO took home several Independent Spirit Awards for Best Director, Best Feature, Best Screenplay, and Best Supporting Female.  It would also go on to score Academy Award nominations for Nolan’s screenplay and Dody Dorn’s groundbreaking edit.  All these plaudits earned Nolan the attention of fellow indie maverick Steven Soderbergh, who would soon become instrumental in helping him transition into studio pictures.

Simply put, Nolan was on the map– in a big way.  He was leaving behind the independent sphere on a high note, with MEMENTO demonstrating his taut sense of control and vision while avoiding the distractions and indulgences that come with a significant leap in budgetary resources.

FOLLOWING and MEMENTO– Nolan’s breakout pair of non-linear neo-noirs— may be small in size and scope, but Nolan’s desire for larger-scale filmmaking is already apparent In their DNA.  It would only be a matter of time until he made his mark in the studio realm, but no one– not even him– could’ve ever predicted just how big that mark would be.

INSOMNIA (2002)

MEMENTO caught the eye of many established Hollywood players– most notably, actor/director George Clooney and indie iconoclast Steven Soderbergh.  Their frequent collaborations together, especially as producers, cultivated a shared taste in talent, and they both saw in Christopher Nolan the perfect candidate to helm a project they had in development over at Alcon Entertainment– a remake of a Norwegian film from 1997 named INSOMNIA, about a detective investigating a grisly murder in an isolated town located so far north that the sun doesn’t set for months at a time.

Alcon’s development deal with Warner Brothers effectively meant that INSOMNIA would become Nolan’s first studio film– a testing ground to see if he really had what it took to play in the big leagues.  As such, he would have to make a few concessions on the production methods he was predisposed to; namely, working from a script that was not his own.

While he would ultimately perform his own pass on credited screenwriter Hilary Seitz’s draft just prior to shooting, INSOMNIA was, more or a less, a work for hire.  Nevertheless, Nolan finds plenty of artistic common ground with Seitz’s prose– enough that his first big budget effort would feel apiece with the puzzle-esque nature of his earlier work and empower him to deliver a uniquely captivating thriller on par with its Swedish counterpart.

The wet evergreen mountains of British Columbia stand in for the majestic landscape of Alaska, where a pair of LAPD detectives have been sent in to investigate the murder of a young local girl.  Nolan’s successful collaboration with the likes of Guy Pearce, Carrie-Ann Moss and Joe Pantoliano in MEMENTO begets here a cast with a higher industry profile and a sterling pedigree.

Indeed, INSOMNIA begins Nolan’s enviable habit of attracting award-winning talent, boasting no less than three Oscar winners among its ensemble. Al Pacino headlines the film as Detective Will Dormer, a driven yet compromised cop besieged by an internal affairs investigation back home.

Pacino plays the part liked a subdued, run-ragged version of his character from Michael Mann’s HEAT– an aspect that no doubt wasn’t lost on Nolan, a self-styled disciple of Mann’s.  A big city cop in a small frontier town, Dormer is literally and figuratively adrift in a mental fog, isolated from any semblance of a familiar surrounding and lost in a perpetual state of exhaustion thanks to a winter sun that never sets and refuses to let him sleep.

To further complicate matters, his inability to think coherently leads to the tragic accidental killing of his own partner during a raid on on the suspected killer’s hideout. The local Nightmute police investigate the circumstances of the accident, led by the doggedly determined and fiercely insightful Ellie Burr.

Hilary Swank imbues the character with a palpable sense of independence cultivated by a life lived on the outermost boundaries of civilization; the alpha to Nicky Katt’s beta– a fellow Nightmute police officer with a wispy mustache named Fred Duggar.  Meanwhile, Dormer pursues his suspect, a local crime novelist named Walter Finch.

Played to chilling effect by the late Robin Williams in one of his rare serious turns, Finch uses his occupational insights into the law enforcement profession to become a formidable and unpredictable adversary to Dormer.  He’s a killer, yes, but he’s not barbaric– Williams projects the same warm sense of paternal authority he had in Gus Van Sant’s GOOD WILL HUNTING, albeit turned on its ear to emphasize its innately creepy undertones.

Finch differs from other murder-thriller heavies in that his guilt is never in question– he admits his deed to Dormer openly and without shame, as if it were the most natural thing in the world.  Williams’ performance is the standout of the film and, in light of his recent passing, stands as a somber reminder of the great talent we lost far too soon.

INSOMNIA is arguably Nolan’s most overlooked major work, but the impeccable quality of its craft lets it to stand toe to toe with his best efforts.  It certainly helps that the lush, pristine Alaskan wilderness provides a stunning and majestic backdrop entirely unique within the larger canon of crime thrillers.

The production values afforded by studio backing amplifies the scope of Nolan’s stylistic choices, which begin to coagulate here into an identifiable aesthetic.  He brings back MEMENTO’s cinematographer, Wally Pfister, in the second of what would be many more subsequent collaborations; filling the 2.35:1 35mm film frame with sweeping panoramas and earthy texture.

Working in conjunction with production designer Nathan Crowley, who would also become a key collaborator in Nolan’s filmography, they cultivate a distinct color palette comprised of stark whites, blacks, and earth tones– with the surrounding evergreens in particular evoking that particular blue-green color characteristic of the lush Pacific Northwest. Warm colors are typically avoided, concentrated mostly within the interior hotel sequences to convey a cozy, hearth-like atmosphere.

The overall effect is one of majestic beauty pervaded by gloom and unease, especially so when a heavy fog envelopes Dormer during the pivotal raid sequence.  Nolan’s camerawork here is much more ambitious, perhaps even a little incongruous considering the staggering sense of scope he imposes on what’s otherwise a relatively grounded story.

His films frequently employ lofty aerials, and INSOMNIA marks the point in which Nolan’s camera finally takes flight, soaring through the dramatic vistas via a combination of helicopter mounts and cranes.

On the ground, Nolan alternates between handheld camerawork and classical dolly moves, making full use of his new toys to convey an epic scope as well as the unique cultural character of his setting.

Editor Dody Dorn and composer David Julyan round out Nolan’s returning crew, with Dorn’s expressionistic approach reprising MEMENTO’s quick-cutting technique as a means to jar the protagonist’s thoughts with flashes of violence, while Julyan’s last collaboration with Nolan moves away from the electronic nature of their earlier work to embrace a big-budget orchestral sound reminiscent of a brooding Hitchcock film.

INSOMNIA may not have initially sprung from Nolan’s mind, but his artistic character permeates every aspect of the film.  As previously noted, Michael Mann is a key influence on Nolan’s aesthetic, and INSOMNIA allows the burgeoning director to play in his idol’s wheelhouse.

Aside from the shared casting of Pacino in a similar character archetype used by Mann, Nolan also evokes his spirit in the detailed and tactical accuracy imposed on even the most minute aspects of policework.

For all his virtues as a man of justice, Dormer is also profoundly corrupt; he plants evidence to justify his own version of events, and even goes so far as to cover up his role in the accidental killing of his own partner.  Nolan’s interest lies in Dormer’s struggle to achieve his objectives without sabotaging himself, continuing the tradition he established in both FOLLOWING and MEMENTO where the fundamentally-compromised nature of his protagonists allows him to better access the psychological underpinnings of their actions.

The twisting nature of INSOMNIA’s plot also evokes the revelatory, puzzle-like character of Nolan’s storytelling, which allows him to turn time itself into a compelling narrative and structural device.

Perhaps rightfully so for his first mainstream Hollywood film, INSOMNIA is the first of Nolan’s features to unspool in linear, chronological order.  Nevertheless, time still plays an important factor in the drama– by setting the story in a place where the sun doesn’t set for months at a time, the circadian day-to-night rhythm is utterly disrupted.

In other words, Dormer is literally removed from the dimension of time itself.  This wreaks havoc on his ability to function, which, in a profession that’s entirely dependent on clear-eyed critical thinking and razor-sharp reflexes, becomes a formidable antagonist in and of itself.

Just like he did for the home video releases of FOLLOWING and MEMENTO, Nolan would also assemble an alternate, apocryphal cut of INSOMNIA– rearranging his scenes in the order that they were shot and overlaying his commentary.

Unlike those prior alternate cuts however, the narrative and logical cohesion of the story completely falls apart in this particular version of INSOMNIA.  Thankfully, clarity isn’t Nolan’s purpose here– rather, this version marries its disjointed order with his astute commentary to provide a unique glimpse into the day-by-day challenges of mounting his first big studio effort.

The commentary also yields intriguing insights into his personal growth as a filmmaker. If his increasing directorial confidence wasn’t palpable enough in the film itself, he reveals that, during the shoot, he didn’t use crucial preparation tools like storyboards, shot lists, or video monitors.  Instead, he let the choices of his actors organically block the scene for him, which he’d then think up coverage for on the fly while he stood by the camera and watched their performances directly instead of behind a screen.

Indeed, these techniques require an astonishingly high degree of confidence to embrace, and aren’t typical of a director on only his third feature… but yet, there he was, pulling it off quite effortlessly.

That gamble of confidence paid off when INSOMNIA debuted in May of 2002 to critical and financial success as one of those rarest of remakes that managed to match, if not transcend, its original material.

Roger Ebert perhaps summed up the sentiment best in his review, hailing it not as “a pale retread, but a re-examination of the material, like a new production of a good play”.
INSOMNIA may have been easily and overwhelmingly eclipsed by anything Nolan’s made since, but it’s nonetheless a strong and notable addition to his canon– and an important one, too, as it would serve as an audition for his next high-profile film, setting the stage for the crowning achievement of his career thus far.

BATMAN BEGINS (2005)

After the completion of INSOMNIA, Christopher Nolan used his newfound access to studio resources to develop an ambitious project on the life of Howard Hughes.  The film would purportedly have starred Jim Carrey as the reclusive billionaire, if he hadn’t scrapped it following his discovery that Martin Scorsese was about to embark on shooting THE AVIATOR with Leonardo DiCaprio.

It was around this same time that he learned Warner Brothers was looking to make a new Batman picture– the property was one of the studio’s crown jewels, but had lain dormant ever since Joel Schumacher effectively bludgeoned it into a coma with 1997’s BATMAN & ROBIN, a two-hour consumer products department memo and toy masquerading as a movie.  Various pitches had already been made by other such high-profile directors as Darren Aronofsky, and spanned a wide range of ideas from Schumacher’s continuation of his run with a third film titled BATMAN TRIUMPHANT, to a live-action adaptation of the animated television series BATMAN BEYOND.

The closest any of these pitches came to reality was Aronofsky’s own riff on the iconic BATMAN YEAR ONE graphic novel, which explored Batman’s origins and early forays into crimefighting from the perspective of the future Gotham City police commissioner Jim Gordon.

Aronofsky’s take would have dramatically reworked some of the most iconic aspects of Batman lore, to the point that executives ultimately got cold feet and abandoned his vision.  Nolan, like many others of his generation, had grown up adoring the Caped Crusader and his surrounding universe of villains, so his interest in the vacant director’s chair was more or less a foregone conclusion.

He wasn’t interested, however, in making a quote/unquote “comic book movie” — indeed, he made no effort to conceal his lack of knowledge with the medium.  Rather, he was interested in imbuing the character of Batman with what he called a “cinematic reality”, giving the story the weight and gravitas of a real-life event.

His initial pitch meeting with Warner Brothers apparently lasted a mere ten minutes, but so confident in his vision of a realistic superhero film was he, that the executives cast aside their doubts about his relative inexperience as a studio filmmaker and hand over their most valuable piece of intellectual property to his control.

Nolan’s next move would pave the way for his eventual reputation as a Hollywood trendsetter.  He did away entirely with the continuity of the previous Tim Burton and Schumacher films, opting to reboot the story from square one so he could tell it his way with no compromises or obligations.

Rebooting a failing franchise has now become the go-to trick for frustrated development executives (especially those assigned to the Spider-Man franchise), so it’s easy to forget just how groundbreaking of an idea this was in the early 2000’s.

This decision, combined with the fact that money was essentially no object, allowed Nolan to envision a boundless Gotham City against which he could stage an epic story exploring Batman not just as a character, but as an idea.

Ridley Scott had always served as a chief influence in Nolan’s artistic development, and Scott’s seminal classic BLADE RUNNER became a key reference in imagining a new kind of cinematic Gotham — a living, breathing city densely populated by diverse subcultures desperately in need of a hero.

Whereas Gotham City had generally been understood in previous iterations to be a fictional version of Manhattan, Nolan modeled the soaring architecture of his Gotham after Chicago, the city in which he’d spent a great deal of his upbringing.

With its deep ties to the colorful history of organized crime and bureaucratic shadiness, Chicago would prove an inspired fit for Nolan’s grandiose vision of a once-great city mired in corruption and decay.

By grounding the action in a tangible place, he could inject the necessary gravitas into his story while immediately differentiating his Gotham from the crumbling Art Deco spires of Burton’s Gotham or the garish day-glo labyrinth of Shumacher’s.

Developing a  project as high-profile as Batman, with so many rabid fans angling for a big scoop, naturally required a high degree of secrecy — a requirement that dovetailed quite harmoniously with Nolan’s own showman-like penchant for strategic opaqueness.
He adopted Stanley Kubrick’s late-career practice of working from home, developing the story in his garage with a small team that included returning production designer Nathan Crowley, Nolan’s producing partner and wife Emma Thomas, and seasoned superhero genre screenwriter David S. Goyer.

Indeed, Nolan and company were so insistent on their veil of secrecy that Warner Brothers executives had to travel to them, forced to read the script on Nolan’s couch in an effort to prevent unwanted copies from leaking.  When the necessities of the pre-production process finally required him to send out physical copies of the script, he did so under a fake title — “The Intimidation Game — to avoid any unwanted scrutiny.

This unconventional process, while admittedly unwieldy, ultimately proved fruitful, empowering him with a dream cast and crew and a budget in the hundreds of millions to help realize the majestic vision he would come to call BATMAN BEGINS.

Christian Bale essentially beat out every eligible actor in the business for the title role by formulating his approach based on, what seems now in retrospect, the obvious concept of the character’s dual nature.  Far from the elegant and assured playboy embodied by Michael Keaton, Val Kilmer and George Clooney, Bale’s Bruce Wayne is a tortured young man whose psyche was profoundly fractured by the murder of his parents when he was a small boy.

The hoarse growl he adopts as Batman is the object of frequent parody now, but Bale’s choice to differentiate the speaking voices of Bruce Wayne and his alter ego came as something of revelation to Nolan during the casting process, immediately setting Bale apart from the pack of candidates.

Bale brings his signature commitment to the role, fully inhabiting the character in mind, body, and soul to arguably create the definitive screen version of the iconic hero. As the newly-orphaned son of a billionaire industrialist and philanthropist, Bruce grows up in his parents’ mausoleum-like mansion, his every need and desire attended to by his caretaker and butler, Alfred.

In his first of several collaborations with Nolan, esteemed British actor Michael Caine effortlessly also creates a definitive version of the character, giving his young charge the necessary warmth and support he needs to one day take take over the reigns of his late father’s business empire, Wayne Enterprises.

Whereas prior Batman movies had audiences simply counting the minutes between the Caped Crusader’s crimefighting forays, Nolan makes the radical choice of delaying our first glimpse of Bruce in full Bat regalia until the halfway mark.

Instead, he traces Bruce’s formative years as his restless desire for justice prompts him to drop out of college and travel the world, giving himself a firsthand education in the nature of crime so that he can deliver said justice himself.  After landing himself in a Chinese prison, he is approached by Ducard, the urbane and charismatic face of a secret vigilante syndicate known as The League Of Shadows.

Liam Neeson proves an inspired choice in the role, becoming a firm yet compassionate mentor to Bruce while dispensing sage advice and virtuous platitudes that slowly reveal their inherently malevolent nature.

He presents himself as an underling to Ken Watanabe’s Ra’s Al Ghul, the enigmatic and Sphinx-like figurehead of The League Of Shadows– but appearances can be deceiving, and Bruce’s refusal to complete his final test (the execution of a common thief) brings his ideological compatibility with Ducard into urgent question.

Ducard’s lessons nevertheless prove influential when Bruce returns to Gotham and begins to formalize his own vigilante identity.

Of all Ducard’s teachings, Bruce’s biggest takeaway is that he is more powerful as a symbol than as a man– a key concept of Nolan’s vision that would fundamentally inform the remainder of the trilogy.  For Bruce, that symbol takes the form of a bat, inspired by a formative moment of fear from his childhood.

Combining his flinty determination for justice with the nigh-bottomless technological resources of Wayne Enterprises at his disposal, Bruce sets out into the night as Batman, intent on eradicating the cancer of organized crime that has infected the Gotham Police Department with corruption.

Batman’s will to act inspires clandestine partnerships with a cop named Jim Gordon and Bruce’s childhood friend, Rachel Dawes, who has grown up to become an ambitious district attorney.  Renowned for his many villainous turns, Gary Oldman initially seemed an unusual choice to portray Gordon, the only decent cop in a police force besieged by compromise and corruption, but he would deliver a brilliant performance that cuts straight to the core of the character.

The character of Rachel Dawes, played by Katie Holmes, is an original creation of Nolan’s with no comic book counterpart.  She’s an ambitious district attorney and the love of Bruce Wayne’s life, stretching all the way back to their childhood.  As such, she is the only person besides Alfred who can penetrate his veneer of AMERICAN PSYCHO-style narcissism and nonchalance to access the broken little boy at his core.

The Batman universe has always been known for its rich world of well-developed allies and enemies, a grand tradition in which BATMAN BEGINS easily follows.  In his performance as Wayne Enterprises R&D head Lucius Fox, Morgan Freeman takes one of the most underappreciated characters in Batman comic lore and transforms him into one of the property’s most indelible personalities and a key ally on par with Gordon or Alfred.  By supplying Bruce with the gear he needs to function as Batman, he becomes analogous to “Q” from the James Bond series, and a vital tool for Nolan to ground Batman’s fantastical tech in the real world.

Nolan is gracious enough to give Freeman his own character arc, as well as his own nemesis in the form of the smug chairman of the Wayne Enterprises board, played memorably by Rutger Hauer in yet another nod to BLADE RUNNER’s key influence on the picture.

MEMENTO’s Mark Boone Junior embodies the Gotham PD’s shameless corruption as Gordon’s slovenly partner, Flass, while Tom Wilkinson’s Carmine Falcone serves as the refined face of the city’s organized crime epidemic.

With his appearance here as the psychopathic psychiatrist Dr. Crane, Cillian Murphy would join Caine and Bale as a recurring collaborator in Nolan’s larger body of work.  Crane, of course, is better known by his supervillain alter ego The Scarecrow– a rogue who employs fear as a weapon, imposing terrifying hallucinations on his victims.

Like Ra’s Al Ghul, Scarecrow is one of the more fantastical villains in the Batman canon and doesn’t necessarily lend himself to a grounded cinematic reality, but Christopher Nolan creates a highly effective adaptation while staying true to the character’s comic roots.  His ability to incite fear stems not from a supernatural source, but from a chemical that he’s weaponized into a spray that paralyzes his targets with debilitating waking nightmares.

Whereas prior BATMAN films chose their villains first and forced the script to twist itself into narrative pretzels to accommodate their pairing, Nolan avoids marquee villains like The Joker or Penguin to place the focus squarely on Batman himself.

Besides the obvious benefit of using villains never before seen on the big screen, Nolan’s emphasis on story allows him to create a rather harmonious pairing between Scarecrow and Ra’s Al Ghul, linking the former’s fear spray directly to the latter by revealing its active ingredient to be a mysterious blue flower that grows in the mountains where The League Of Shadows has established their temple.

This unique pairing also allows the ideological concept of fear to emerge as the central theme of BATMAN BEGINS, a pillar upon which every narrative decision can revolve around.  Part of what makes THE DARK KNIGHT TRILOGY so resonant is Nolan’s ability to distill each individual installment into a singular, unifying theme.

In the case of BATMAN BEGINS, that theme is fear, and it doesn’t just make for a convenient justification of Scarecrow and Ra’s Al Ghul’s master plot– it’s also an entirely appropriate prism through which to explore the genesis of Batman himself.

Indeed, BATMAN BEGINS is the first Batman film to truly understand and portray the character’s nature as something that strikes genuine fear in the hearts of criminals. Finally, Nolan uses the opportunity to include a few minor cameos that are nonetheless notable in the context of his artistic growth.

For instance, FOLLOWING’s Jeremy Theobald and Lucy Russell make fleeting appearances, the former being a technician for the Gotham Water Board and the latter being the elegant foil of a heated political discussion at a fancy restaurant.

GAME OF THRONES fans will also recognize the inclusion of King Joffrey himself, Jack Gleeson, as a small boy growing up in the Narrows who encounters Batman outside his back porch.

If INSOMNIA’s majestic cinematography hinted at Nolan’s ambitions towards classic Hollywood spectacle, then BATMAN BEGINS makes those designs clear for all to see.  Nolan is something of an iconoclast in the film industry, in that he vigorously bucks modern trends in favor of old school techniques.

He’s become a valiant defender of celluloid film, resistant to the relentless advances of digital filmmaking.  He endeavors to ground his stunts and set-pieces in practical effects as much as possible, where the vast majority of his peers prefer the surgical precision of computer-generated imagery.

He dismisses Hollywood’s convictions about 3D as the way to attract modern audiences to the theater, presenting an alternate argument for larger 2D formats like IMAX that are capable of staggering clarity.

This aspect of his artistic profile is why the release of a new Nolan is regarded as such a cultural event– his methods simply give his films the kind of weight and gravitas we accord to monuments.  BATMAN BEGINS is the first instance of this, harnessing the full power of a nine figure budget and putting it all up on the screen in a way that would popularize the concept of the “dark and gritty reboot”.

Cinematographer Wally Pfister returns for his third collaboration with Nolan, capturing the action on 35mm film in the 2.35:1 aspect ratio and coming away with an Oscar nomination for his trouble.

Deep wells of inky shadow, low-hanging clouds of impenetrable fog and torrents of rain conjure up an appropriate film noir look that’s less THE THIRD MAN and more BLADE RUNNER in its rendering of a dystopic urban landscape.

Nolan packs his story with epic compositions and soaring camerawork, further peppering his signature helicopter aerials throughout to find Batman’s majestic silhouette amidst Gotham’s towering spires.  A color palette of earth & metal tones further grounds BATMAN BEGINS’ aesthetic in realism while immediately differentiating itself from prior cinematic iterations of the Caped Crusader.

While Nolan actively avoids replicating the frenetic handheld camerawork typical of action films of the time, he works with editor Lee Smith to bring a chaotic quick-cut approach to the film’s action scenes, especially in fights that aim to convey Batman’s mastery of hand-to-hand combat as an unstoppable and disorienting force, doling out a barrage of street justice in handy bite-size form.

The challenge of reinventing Batman goes much further than overhauling his iconic cape and cowl.  It also means redefining all the other little things that make Batman “Batman”: Wayne Manor, the Batmobile, his grappling hook, and the fantastical theatricality of his villains amidst a myriad of other aspects.

It’s a very intimidating task, but production designer Nathan Crowley proves up to the challenge, reinforcing Nolan’s grandiose vision of a cinematic reality.  All of Batman’s gear is based off real military tech in some capacity, the Batmobile (referred to within the film as The Tumbler) is completely overhauled into the bastard lovechild of a Hummer and a Lamborghini, and the sheer size of the practical sets — indeed, spanning the size of multiple city blocks — would require one of the largest aircraft hangars in the world to house them in.

Composing team Hans Zimmer and James Newton Howard tackle the unenviable task of following Danny Elfman’s Batman theme, one of the most instantly recognizable music cues in recent film history, but their efforts result in a score that obliterates our musical memories of Dark Knights past and provides the necessary lift for Nolan’s interpretation to soar.

Zimmer and Howard are excellent composers with highly celebrated individual careers, so their pairing here must’ve seemed very unusual in theory.  In practice, their partnership —  an idea brought to the table by Zimmer when Nolan initially approached him —  proves quite inspired, reflecting Batman’s fragmented psyche with a bifurcated approach that sees Howard tackling dramatic sequences with sweeping strings and mournful brass instruments, while Zimmer fuels the action with an urgent orchestral staccato and atonal electronic rhythms inspired by flapping bat wings.

The score has since become widely recognizable and imitated in the wake of the success of the larger DARK KNIGHT TRILOGY, so one could be forgiven for failing to remember just how visionary it truly is — it’s so radical in its adherence to the story’s key themes and willingness to experiment that it’s something of a minor miracle that Warner Brothers ever allowed it anywhere near their most prized property.

BATMAN BEGINS, and the larger DARK KNIGHT TRILOGY, is not content to simply detail the exploits of the iconic hero as he romps through Gotham fighting crime.  It aspires to something greater, using its pulp framework to explore heavy ideological concepts.

Indeed, BATMAN BEGINS often plays like a law school thesis paper masquerading as a summer blockbuster.  While this has an unintentional side effect of forcing its characters to contort themselves into unwieldy “idea delivery machines” rather than sound like living, breathing people, the overall effect is nonetheless one of profound resonance that must have felt quite relevant at a time when news headlines were dominated by overreaching surveillance measures and the controversy of pre-emptive war.

With its exploration of of the urban landscape’s relationship to crime and justice,  BATMAN BEGINS provides an opportunity for Nolan to fully inhabit the wheelhouse of a key influence, Michael Mann.

He uses Batman as an entry point into a philosophical deconstruction of justice itself– what is justice, especially when delivered outside the bounds of conventional law enforcement or the court system?

When it comes to vigilantism, do the ends ever justify the means?  The justice system is just one of many that Nolan utilizes to tell BATMAN BEGINS’ story, taking inspiration from HBO’S THE WIRE in detailing how corruption spreads its tendrils into the various infrastructural systems that support a city.

This can be seen most immediately in the villains’ plot to use Gotham’s water supply as a delivery mechanism for an inert chemical agent that, once activated, causes anyone who ingests it to go insane with fear.

Gotham’s transportation system is also utilized, with an elevated subway car being another delivery mechanism for the machine that will catalyze Scarecrow’s fear drug upon reacting Wayne Tower. We also see social systems, represented by diverse economic castes and the varying appearances of different districts, giving Gotham a tangible, realistic quality that eluded Burton or Schumacher’s rather theatrical interpretations.

There’s an elegant, modern financial district anchored by Wayne Tower and inhabited by Gotham’s privileged class, while the poor and other undesirables are condemned below ground to a seedy, forgotten underbelly that appears to have been, at one point, the street-level Gotham before it was built over by the current one.

There’s also the Narrows, a densely-populated island of slums and abject poverty set apart from the mainland; home to Arkham Asylum and the majority of Gotham’s criminal population.

The inclusion of such a destitute neighborhood as the setting for the film’s climax contrasts directly with the mask of privilege and wealthiness Bruce bears to the public, further illustrating the extent to which he must depart from a life of luxury in order to purge himself of his interior demons.

BATMAN BEGINS’ exploration of urban systems and the malleability of the built environment has come to be a prominent theme in his subsequent work, culminating in INCEPTION and THE DARK KNIGHT RISES with characters physically re-sculpting cities to their own singular designs.

A common image throughout Nolan’s filmography is that of imposing architectural monoliths brought to rubble by a fundamental weakness, an aspect of his artistic character no doubt profoundly affected by 9/11.

BATMAN BEGINS establishes this conceit rather literally, defacing the city streets around Wayne Tower by crashing a runaway subway train into it.  The fact that The Narrows is an island is also important– its isolation from the mainland becomes a critical flaw when Scarecrow’s fear gas is unleashed, instantly transforming the island slum into a confined labyrinth of terror.

In an oblique way, this aspect of BATMAN BEGINS also hits on the magician-like, puzzle-esque nature of his artistic persona, in that he takes something exceedingly mundane like the subway or an urban island and turns it into something of a spectacle.

That same nature also causes him to take what might otherwise be a fairly linear story and jumble up the timeline into a highly strategic non-linear order.  BATMAN BEGINS ostensibly covers Bruce Wayne’s long transformation into Batman, from his first encounter with bats in an old well as a child, to his first victory as a vigilante, and finally to the solidification of his new identity after saving Gotham from an insidious crime syndicate.

However, Nolan doesn’t quite tell the story in that order– at least, not during the first half.  We first meet Bruce as an inmate in a Chinese prison, detailing the circumstances leading up to his meeting Ducard and becoming involved in The League Of Shadows.

While he trains to become one of them, Nolan peppers in flashbacks that fill out the backstory, showing how Bruce’s parents were murdered and how his frustration over being unable to avenge their killer himself led to his travels abroad.

The ordering of these sequences is quite deliberate, calculated in such a way so as to maximize the emotional power of BATMAN BEGINS’ first half by feeding us visceral nuggets of backstory that underscore the context of the scene at hand.

This is what director Guillermo Del Toro is referring to when he calls Nolan an “emotional mathematician”– he evokes emotion by structuring his stories in a way that’s precise and measured– almost to a fault, as his detractors tend to find his films devoid of organic warmth, akin to the gut level revulsion of encountering the uncanny valley.

As Nolan’s filmography has grown, there indeed appears to be a formula for how he structures his stories for maximum emotional impact.  One of the most evident products of this formula is the specific manner in which he ends most of his films, riding an emotional wave conjured by a cathartic montage and swelling score before smash cutting to the film’s title (which is usually the first time we actually see the title itself onscreen).

BATMAN BEGINS marks the first time that Christopher Nolan employs this formula, a choice that’s quite apt for the subject matter and, in particular, the closing scene at hand.

The film naturally accommodates other thematic fascinations of Nolan’s, both established and emerging. BATMAN BEGINS continues a tradition seen in all of his work since FOLLOWING by positioning the protagonist as profoundly flawed.  Admittedly, this has always been a core aspect of the character since his creation by Bob Kane in 1939, but previous Batman pictures mostly chose to overlook it in favor of highlighting his heroic qualities.

Nolan’s Bruce Wayne is a man haunted by a horrible tragedy and desperately in need of a guiding purpose in his life.  His solution to dress up as a bat and fight crime, then, requires an intimidating amount of philosophical reflection in order to combat the sheer psychosis of the idea.

Even then, Bruce knows his quest is doomed– he’s well aware that no amount of crimefighting can bring back his parents or heal his psychological wounds, yet he can’t help but become utterly consumed by his desire for justice.

Nolan’s sartorial fascination with functional style finds plenty of opportunity for indulgence in BATMAN BEGINS, not just in the various utilities of the Batsuit’s design but also in the amount of screentime he allocates to the discussion of what the suits means on a symbolic level.

Finally, BATMAN BEGINS’ expansive, almost operatic scope allows Bruce to be seen travelling the world before settling back in Gotham, whereas previous Batman films never left the city limits.  Nolan would bring this same globetrotting sensibility to his subsequent work, orchestrating his stories so as to require frequent travel to exotic locales that help to convey a larger-than-life scale.

As his career has grown, his travels have extended beyond the confines of Earth itself, venturing to entirely new worlds in INTERSTELLAR’s outer space as well as the lucid unconscious of INCEPTION’s inner space.  BATMAN BEGINS has its sights set on far more modest horizons, employing the dramatic and almost-alien vistas of Iceland as a stand-in for the majestic Himalayan Mountains of Asia.

All of this led up to what was easily the most ambitious film of Nolan’s still-fledgling career.  His ability to convey scale had grown from FOLLOWING’s modest back-alley origins to that of a sweeping overview of an entire city under siege.

His self-confidence as a director, evidenced by his refusal to storyboard or sit in video village during the production of INSOMNIA, enabled him to execute his vision with awe-inspiring clarity while further bucking long-established studio filmmaking practices– indeed, he felt that every shot was so vital to telling his story that he dispatched with a second unit altogether, gathering every single action beat, establishing shot, or insert himself.

While not without its fair share of criticisms, BATMAN BEGINS debuted in the summer of 2005 to very positive reviews, many of which claimed that the Caped Crusader had finally been done cinematic justice.  The film also established Nolan’s enviable ability to create box office juggernauts, earning $373 million in worldwide receipts.

Far from simply being just another summer blockbuster, BATMAN BEGINS has proven highly influential, causing a chain reaction of events still being felt across the cinematic landscape nearly fifteen years later.

Hollywood’s trend of comic book adaptations had truly begun with the success of Bryan Singer’s X-MEN in 2000, but BATMAN BEGINS showed the world that these properties could be something more than just escapist fare– they could be legitimate forums in which to explore complex social and political issues.

Furthermore, it pioneered the now-stale trend of “rebooting” a dormant or failed property as a way to restore its freshness– indeed, CASINO ROYALE and the Daniel Craig-era of the James Bond series was a direct reaction to BATMAN BEGINS.

The success of its limited IMAX run also established a viable market for large format presentations of narrative features, offering a technical advantage suited to huge spectacle that conventional theaters or television simply couldn’t match.  Nolan himself would become enamored of the format previously best known for short-form nature documentaries, beginning a love affair that would fundamentally shape his career.

For audiences, BATMAN BEGINS would begin their love affair with Nolan himself– the character of Batman became, for many, an entry point into the burgeoning director’s particular style of filmmaking and created a whole new wave of Nolan admirers and acolytes.

For the Nolan faithful who had already seen the light with MEMENTO, the massive success of BATMAN BEGINS reinforced their convictions in his formidable technical skill-set and narrative dexterity.

In one fell bat-swoop, Nolan had gone from indie maverick to the biggest VIP on the Warner Brothers lot, well on his way towards a destiny as a director who would revolutionize and revitalize old-fashioned spectacle filmmaking for a new generation of audiences around the world.  The Hollywood machine demanded a sequel, and quickly, but a return trip to Gotham wasn’t on Nolan’s itinerary just yet.


THE PRESTIGE (2006)

Director Christopher Nolan didn’t have to search very far to find the subject material for his follow-up to BATMAN BEGINS– his fifth feature film had already been in development since MEMENTO, and would have been his fourth after INSOMNIA, had Gotham City not beckoned so urgently.

Nolan and his brother Jonathan had been working intermittently over the previous five years adapting Christopher Priest’s 1995 novel “The Prestige”, a tale about dueling magicians in London at the turn of the twentieth century.

The brothers no doubt felt an enormous amount of pressure to deliver a fitting adaptation, considering that they had been chosen by Priest directly over higher-profile filmmakers like Sam Mendes, who wished to make the picture as his own follow-up to the Oscar-winning AMERICAN BEAUTY (1999).

Nolan benefited from Priest’s preference for up-and-coming filmmakers, wowing the author off the strength of FOLLOWING alone, as MEMENTO was still in post-production at the time.  The Nolan brothers attributed the length of their writing process to the complexity of their ambitions, wishing to reshape the form of their screenplay to the thematic structure of the book in a bid to become the cinematic embodiment of the magic trade’s core principles.

Capturing these ideals proved teasingly elusive, to the extent that the brothers delivered the final shooting script only three days before the start of production.  Thankfully, their efforts didn’t go unnoticed– THE PRESTIGE has gone on to become one of Nolan’s most closely-scrutinized efforts, regarded not just as a compelling and complex dramatic thriller, but also as a revelatory expression of Nolan’s own artistic character via the philosophies that inform his craft.

THE PRESTIGE continues Nolan’s symbiotic working relationship with Warner Brothers, who co-produces with Touchstone Pictures, but it also sees him reuniting with Newmarket Films, the entity that launched his career with MEMENTO.

The story is concerned with the sustained game of one-upmanship between rival magicians– the aristocratic American, Robert Angier, played by Hugh Jackman, and the coarse, working-class Englishman, Alfred Borden, played by Christian Bale.

Bale’s casting, as well as Michael Caine’s as a paternal stage engineer named Cutter, reflects how quickly THE PRESTIGE came together once BATMAN BEGINS got off the ground: both actors are able to parlay the creative momentum of their prior collaboration with Nolan into compelling performances that bring the period alive with fresh immediacy.  As the game of wits between Borden and Angier escalates, they draw their friends and family into the fray to increasingly devastating results.

Rebecca Hall fares better than her role as Borden’s increasingly put-upon wife might otherwise suggest, taking what very little she has to work with in terms of dramatic meat and chewing it vigorously.

Scarlett Johansson pulls heavily from the “femme fatale” archetype in her performance as Olivia Wenscombe, a double-crossing magician’s assistant whose allegiance is– to put it politely– fickle.

David Bowie, Andy Serkis, and Ricky Jay round out Nolan’s cast of note;  an inspired trio, considering all three are illusionists in their own right.  Jay is a magic enthusiast in real life, and helped to coach Bale and Jackman in the trade while serving in his role as a fellow magician named Milton.

Serkis is well-known for his innovations with motion capture performance, using digital effects to transcend what the human body can physically do, or transform it into something else entirely.  However, he gets no such opportunity to practice that trade in THE PRESTIGE, in which he plays Nikola Tesla’s decidedly human assistant, Alley.

Bowie plays Tesla himself, the eccentric real-life inventor who is fictionalized here as something of a reclusive wizard of the electric occult– the mastermind behind a mysterious technology that allows Angier to harness a power far beyond his ability to truly understand it.

Returning cinematographer Wally Pfister and production designer Nathan Crowley cement their status as core members of Nolan’s inner collaborative circle, each scoring a respective Oscar nomination for their efforts here.

THE PRESTIGE expectedly reinforces Nolan’s reputation for impeccable cinematography and unrivaled production value– but this time, it almost comes in spite of the significant budgetary resources at his disposal.  Stylistically-speaking, the film has more in common with his earlier independent work than his two recent studio efforts, often employing a handheld camera that finds the 2.35:1 frame organically instead of imposing precise and deliberate compositions on his subjects.

Nolan and Pfister complement this approach by avoiding artificial light whenever possible, which works in unison with the handheld camerawork to bring Nolan’s first recreation of a historical period to vivid life.

Whereas Nolan’s prior reliance on natural light on FOLLOWING was born of practical necessity, his adoption of it here exhibits his supreme confidence as a filmmaker, in that he’s actively choosing to deprive himself of the luxury of a controlled lighting scheme.  It also serves as thematic reinforcement for the story itself, being set in a world that was coming out of the industrial revolution and into a bold new era of electricity.

All this being said, Nolan doesn’t quite fully embrace his indie roots– he still delves regularly into the studio toybox, pulling out dolly tracks, crane arms, and helicopter mounts to imbue his picture with a majestic, classical sense of scale.  Angier’s journey to see Tesla in his isolated compound at Colorado Springs also allows Nolan to dabble with the iconic visual language of the western genre.

Just as he had done with BATMAN BEGINS, production designer Nathan Crowley spent a great deal of THE PRESTIGE’s development process working out of Nolan’s garage, working intimately with the director to establish the physical aesthetic as manifest in the sets, props, and costumes.

THE PRESTIGE utilizes a similar color palette to BATMAN BEGINS, rendering the 35mm film image in earth & metal tones, warming up interior sequences with a cozy amber hue while lathering exteriors in a cold, cobalt veneer.

The color red is used sparingly, saved for the interiors of the majestic theatres or Angier’s Colorado stagecoach so as to better evoke the romanticism of their profession while contrasting it against the grimy working-class environs from which their shows provide a fantastical escape.

Unlike his work on BATMAN BEGINS, Crowley built only one set for THE PRESTIGE– the under-stage section of the theatre where Angier, Borden, and Cutter congregate after a hard day’s work of amazing the unwashed masses.

With the exception of the Universal backlot subbing in for the muddy streets of London, much of THE PRESTIGE was shot on location, giving the film a smoky, industrial texture that simply can’t be replicated on a soundstage.

Some might be surprised to learn that the majority of THE PRESTIGE was shot in Los Angeles, utilizing well-chosen locales that handily pass for 1900’s-era London, like Greystone Mansion– a grand oil tycoon’s estate in Beverly Hills often seen in a variety of other films like The Coen Brothers’ THE BIG LEBOWSKI (1988) or Paul Thomas Anderson’s THERE WILL BE BLOOD (2007).

The various theatres seen throughout the film were found amidst the opulent, forgotten auditoriums and movie palaces of downtown LA’s Broadway Theatre District– many of which had been sitting unused for years, ready to play the part with little need for additional set dressing.

Post-production offers yet another opportunity for Nolan to reteam with previous collaborators.  BATMAN BEGINS’ editor Lee Smith reprises his duties here, effortlessly juggling the complicated machinery of Nolan’s narrative.

Composer David Julyan also returns for his fourth collaboration with Nolan after sitting out the scoring job on BATMAN BEGINS.  Julyan’s suite of cues for THE PRESTIGE bears a heavy resemblance to his prior work for Nolan, foregoing any sort of melodic shape in favor of a brooding, orchestral drone.

Of all the creative aspects that make up THE PRESTIGE, most critics agreed that Julyan’s work here was the weak link, content to be regularly overwhelmed by Nolan’s visuals while offering up very little in the way of its own character.

Indeed, the most interesting aspect of THE PRESTIGE’s music is the fact that Nolan uses the Thom Yorke track “Analyse” over the credits– notable by its rare exception to Nolan’s otherwise-established preference for original score over licensed needledrops.

As of this writing, THE PRESTIGE marks the last time Nolan would work with his oldest collaborator, with the consensus of critical disappointment surrounding Julyan’s score perhaps solidifying Nolan’s burgeoning partnership with Hans Zimmer as a more appropriate fit for the big-budget studio filmmaker he was becoming.

THE PRESTIGE may have been overshadowed in the wake of the larger success of his subsequent films, but it stands to reason that it’s also a highly personal work that most intimately convey’s Nolan’s artistic worldview towards his own profession.  He clearly sees undeniable similarities in the stagecraft behind both magic and filmmaking, like a shared emphasis on sleight of hand and visual trickery to make the audience believe in something unreal, or impossible.

The central philosophy of magic that gives the film its title consists of three prongs– The Pledge, The Turn, and The Prestige.  Nolan weaves this philosophy into the structure of the screenplay itself, assigning each prong to its corresponding act.  The Pledge presents the audience with a seemingly normal object, just as Act 1 introduces the status quo of a particular story’s setting and characters.

The Turn finds the illusionist doing something extraordinary with that object, like making it disappear– a fitting allusion to Act 2’s need to present the protagonist with a problem that must be solved.

But as the film continually reminds us, it’s not enough to make something disappear; you have to bring it back.  Act 3 and The Prestige serve the same purpose: to return to the status quo via extraordinary, and sometimes even supernatural, effort.

In typical Christopher Nolan style, however, THE PRESTIGE doesn’t present it sequence of events in such a simple or linear fashion.  The story rests on a series of key revelations, many of which become more effective or intriguing when the audience doesn’t yet have full context.

Just as he did in his previous films, Nolan and editor Lee Smith chart the rise and fall of both Angier and Borden out of sequence, jumbling up the chronology for strategic effect much like a magician will employ distraction techniques and sleight of hand to conceal the machinery that makes the trick possible.

Angier and Borden also follow in Nolan’s grand parade of profoundly flawed protagonists– both men are consumed by their ambition and competitiveness, driven to do great things that give them renown and acclaim, but also horrible deeds that tarnish their careers with infamy.

Their shared desire for greatness, no matter the cost, becomes their Achilles heel, forcing them to new lows even as they struggle to one-up each other.  Nolan’s interest in functional style takes a necessary turn towards opulence in THE PRESTIGE, dressing his protagonists in peacocking threads that reinforce their strategic need to dazzle their audiences with flash and elegance.

Their garb even serves to conceal complicated undersuits vital to executing dramatic, impossible tricks; best seen in a primitive, mechanical contraption of Cutter’s design that looks like something Batman would have worn had he been born a century earlier.

Nolan’s direction clearly benefits from the confidence and wealth of experience he accumulated on the set of BATMAN BEGINS, navigating the labyrinthine twists and turns of THE PRESTIGE’s narrative with effortless ease and dexterity.

Interestingly enough, THE PRESTIGE was one of three films released in 2006 to deal with the world of magic, the other two being THE ILLUSIONIST and Woody Allen’s SCOOP (which also starred Jackman and Johansson).

The film enjoyed a robust run at the box office and a slew of positive reviews from critics, attaining a level of success it might not have had otherwise, had interest in Nolan’s artistic character not been fueled by the monster hit that was BATMAN BEGINS.

In the years since its release, THE PRESTIGE has only grown in critical and cultural regard, continuing to reveal new layers of thematic complexity and technical mastery with each repeat viewing.


THE DARK KNIGHT (2008)

The runaway success of BATMAN BEGINS in 2005 revitalized the flagging Batman movie franchise, leaving fans clamoring for more of director Christopher Nolan’s expansive and groundbreaking vision.

A sequel was inevitable, but rather than capitalize off the resurgent Batmania by pushing out the next chapter as fast as possible, Warner Brothers executives did something quite unimaginable by today’s standards– they gave Nolan the space and time he needed to regroup and refresh his artistic approach.

THE PRESTIGE served as an effective palette cleanser in this regard, its warm reception further consolidating Nolan’s influence and bolstering his directorial profile as a breakout visionary.  Now that his artistic deck had been cleared, Nolan was ready to consider what a return trip to Gotham City might entail.

There were certain expectations, of course– a sequel would no doubt find Batman operating at the apex of his powers, and BATMAN BEGINS’ ending teaser scene suggested he would finally do battle with his arch-nemesis, The Joker.

Beyond that, Nolan had near-limitless creative and financial freedom to realize his vision.  As it would turn out, that vision would grow to become so complex and ambitious, it would require a canvas no less than four stories tall to properly contain it.

In crafting a fitting follow-up to BATMAN BEGINS, Nolan once again looked to classic graphic novels for inspiration– specifically, THE KILLING JOKE and THE LONG HALLOWEEN, which respectively detailed the origin stories of two iconic Batman villains The Joker and Two-Face.

While he didn’t adapt those stories outright, certain aspects of these comics nevertheless served as touchstones for Nolan’s second foray into the wider Batman universe.  Receiving another story assist from David S. Goyer, Nolan set about crafting the screenplay with his writing partner and brother, Jonathan.

The brothers were intent on using this opportunity to depart significantly from established Batman lore and remake the Caped Crusader in their image, to the extent that they dropped the word “Batman” from the title of their screenplay entirely– a first in the property’s cinematic history.

The title they would use instead — THE DARK KNIGHT –simultaneously invoked one of Batman’s alternate mantles while signaling their intention to transcend the confines of the character’s comic book origins.

To make a Batman movie without “Batman” in the title is an admittedly risky move, and the fact that Warner Brothers allowed this to come to pass speaks volumes about the total trust they placed in Nolan as the current steward of their most-prized property.

As we all know now, their faith would be rewarded many times over, with THE DARK KNIGHT becoming a financial and critical juggernaut that not only installed Nolan as one of Hollywood’s preeminent directors, but fundamentally changed the course of American studio filmmaking for the foreseeable future.

THE DARK KNIGHT picks up roughly nine months after BATMAN BEGINS left off, with the revelation of Batman’s existence compelling the citizens and bureaucrats of Gotham City to build a better, more-just society.

The cobwebs of organized crime that once riddled the city with corruption have been largely swept away to the fringes, held in check by a debilitating fear of an unexpected appearance by Batman (or one of his many knockoff impersonators).

From his vantage point in a spartan penthouse high above the city, Bruce Wayne overlooks a cleaner Gotham and eagerly anticipates the day when Batman’s brand of vigilante justice can be replaced by legitimate agents, like the ascendant District Attorney, Harvey Dent.

Christian Bale reprises his role from BATMAN BEGINS, finding the iconic hero at the peak of his powers.  As this particular incarnation of Bruce Wayne, Bale appears much leaner– gaunt, even–  than he did previously.  This Bruce is a man who is deep into his obsession with justice, burdened by the philosophical weight of his calling and the growing realization his work may never be done.

His best hope for retirement lies in the efforts of Dent, played by Aaron Eckhart in a performance that draws heavily from the legacy of tragic political idealists like Robert F. Kennedy.  Hailed as a “White Knight” and a legitimate response to Batman’s shadow campaign,  the city’s new top cop sets about ridding Gotham of corruption through the court system and a relentless zeal for prosecution.

The relationship between Batman and Harvey Dent is the emotional backbone of THE DARK KNIGHT’s story, with both men bound to each other by principle, ambition, and their love for Rachel Dawes.

Maggie Gyllenhaal replaces BATMAN BEGINS’ Katie Holmes, arguably delivering a superior performance that ably evokes the nuanced heartbreak of loving two men who aren’t just willing, but eager to risk their lives in the name of justice.  She continues to be a key figure in Bruce Wayne’s life, with the switch in performers hardly registering thanks to the compelling and unexpected way in which Nolan expands and develops the character’s arc to its logical — and tragic —  endpoint.

BATMAN BEGINS closed on a triumphant, albeit cautious note– taking great pains to warn of the perils of escalation.  Naturally, THE DARK KNIGHT details how this manifests in a world where the good guys dress like bats and leap off of rooftops.  As the city’s various criminal factions are squeezed to their breaking point, they turn to a man they don’t understand– a psychotic criminal with no allegiances or backstory and known only as The Joker.

Easily the most recognizable and influential of all Batman’s various villains, The Joker as manifest in Nolan’s universe is, first and foremost, an agent of chaos.  He matches Batman’s theatricality even as he positions himself as the Dark Knight’s philosophical antithesis.  He spreads his nihilistic worldview by finding and using the weaknesses that lie in his opponents, turning them against themselves and each other.

After teasing his presence at the end of BATMAN BEGINS, there was much anticipation as to just how exactly Nolan would portray The Joker through the prism of his grounded, real-world approach.

The casting of Heath Ledger, then, was met with a significant amount of premature criticism from the blogosphere– here was a good-looking actor who, while generally regarded as a talented thespian, was so completely outside the physicality expected of someone entrusted to play Batman’s most iconic nemesis.

On top of that, Ledger had to compete with Jack Nicholson’s portrayal of the character in Tim Burton’s BATMAN (1989)– a performance that many considered to be the definitive screen depiction of The Joker.  To prepare, Ledger reportedly locked himself away in an isolated motel room for six weeks, keeping a journal he wrote in character and drawing inspiration from figures like Sid Vicious and Alex DeLarge from A CLOCKWORK ORANGE as he developed and perfected a slithery, serpentine energy all his own.

Topped off by a mop of greasy green hair, smeared face makeup, and a sinister Glasgow Smile, Ledger’s performance immediately silenced the critics the moment he appeared on screen and performed his now-infamous Magic Pencil Trick.

A budding director in his own right, Ledger  went as far as directing the Joker’s hostage videos himself– a rare instance of Nolan ceding total directorial control, and an illustratration of both Ledger’s complete command of the character and Nolan’s unwavering trust in him as a collaborator.

The collective interest in Ledger’s depiction of the Joker was no doubt magnified by his untimely death in January 2008, which fueled something of a morbid fascination considering he was playing such a ghoulish character.

When the final product was unveiled, Ledger’s last complete performance was met with unanimous praise by critics and audiences alike, generating a wave of appreciation that culminated in a posthumous Oscar win for the late actor in the Best Supporting Actor category– a first for the superhero genre.

Since then, Ledger’s depiction of The Joker has gone on to invade our collective consciousness, leaving behind a legacy of anarchic iconography that’s been used in anything and everything: from political protest memes, to Halloween costumes and, most unfortunately, real-world copycat killers.

Nolan’s handling of the equally-iconic villain Harvey Two-Face was also fraught with peril– a rogue made infamous by the grotesque disfigurement covering half his body and his penchant for flipping a coin over his murderous decisions, the character as established in the comics was already a far cry from Nolan’s vision of a grounded reality.

Tommy Lee Jones’ hamball depiction in Joel Schumacher’s BATMAN FOREVER (1995) was essentially Diet Joker, so Nolan and Eckhart had a low hurdle to clear when it came to molding an adversary who could hold his own against Ledger’s dominating performance.

As mentioned previously, Harvey Dent’s fall from grace is the major dramatic through-line of THE DARK KNIGHT, with his death having profound implications for Gotham’s future that will resonate through the remainder of the trilogy.  Nolan takes great care to establish the monster already lying within before Dent’s fateful transformation, showing how his passion for justice and his friends can be perverted and twisted in a way that betrays his core principles.

The loss of Rachel Dawes and the burning of half his body in a gasoline fire orchestrated by The Joker doesn’t drive him to evil, it only brings out the evil that was there all along– simmering beneath his good looks and cool confidence.  Nolan and Eckhart wisely imbue Harvey Two-Face with a tragic sympathy that allows the audience to swallow the more outlandish aspects of his character, and more crucially, mourn for the loss of Gotham’s bright future during his brief reign of terror.

Owing to the film’s epic sense of scope and vision of a city gripped by crisis, a large  supporting cast anchors Nolan’s core players while serving as a testament to his ability to attract prestigious talent.  Familiar faces like Michael Caine, Morgan Freeman, Gary Oldman, and Cillian Murphy reprise their respective roles from BATMAN BEGINS, their loyalty rewarded with compelling dramatic arcs all their own.

Caine’s Alfred is the same dependable old butler he’s always been, but the burden of keeping Bruce’s secrets is clearly beginning to take its toll on him.  Freeman’s Lucius Fox continues to balance supplying Batman with updated crime-fighting gear while running Wayne Enterprises, but we also find him grappling with the ethical dilemmas inherent in assisting a vigilante unbound by the constraints of legitimate justice systems.
In order to find and combat The Joker, Batman has to resort to ever more-precarious methods of surveillance that blur the line between right and wrong– in this context, Fox becomes something of a cypher for 2008 audiences grappling with their own ideological standing on The War On Terror’s overreaching domestic surveillance measures.  Oldman’s Jim Gordon is more grizzled and battle-hardened since we last saw him, and his continued immunity against corruption sees him finally elevated to his character’s classic rank of Commissioner.

As Jonathan Crane and his villainous alter-ego Scarecrow, Murphy finds his character having fallen on hard times since the failure of his plot in BATMAN BEGINS– his influence reduced to that of a lowly drug dealer hawking his toxic fear compound as a recreational hallucinogen.

A few new faces join the fray, such as Eric Roberts, Nestor Carbonell, Anthony Michael Hall, and William Fichtner.  Roberts plays the smug heir to the Falcone crime empire, Salvatore Marone; his general ineffectiveness symbolizing organized crime’s waning grip on the city.

Carbonell draws influence from real-world bureaucrats like then-Los Angeles Mayor, Antonio Villaraigosa, in his performance as Gotham City’s mayor, Anthony Garcia — a confident and idealistic politician who is eager to usher in a new age of prosperity for his beloved city.

Hall, better known for his turns in various John Hughes movies as a gangly awkward teenager, appears all grown-up here as a prominent news anchor who finds himself ensnared by The Joker’s masterful manipulation of the media.  Fichtner is the first of Nolan’s many nods to Michael Mann’s HEAT (1995), cast as a feisty bank clerk during the Joker’s robbery sequence that opens the film.

Whereas BATMAN BEGINS used the idea of fear as its thematic backbone, THE DARK KNIGHT organizes its narrative around the central theme of chaos.  The Joker’s chief objective is to break down the established order by calling attention to the fragility of the ideological pillars that hold it up.

A rigid structure that won’t bend will break instead, rendering itself ineffective against a force that needs no structure whatsoever.  He sows the seed of doubt in his victims, calling into question their inherent natures, and then simply sits back and enjoys the ensuing fireworks as they do the destruction for him.

A perfect example of this is the chaos that ensues when The Joker calls on the citizens of Gotham to murder a Wayne employee who is threatening to reveal the identity of Batman.  If the man isn’t dead within an hour, he’ll blow up a hospital– the identity of which he strategically declines to divulge.  Faced with the prospect of losing their loved ones, the citizens of Gotham turn out en masse to eliminate the employee, besieging the police with an overwhelming and unpredictable wave of opposition.

THE DARK KNIGHT’s expansive canvas allows for the exploration of several other core concepts that inform the greater scope of the trilogy, such as escalation and various sociopolitical systems.  Foreshadowed by Gordon at the end of BATMAN BEGINS, escalation becomes a major driving force of THE DARK KNIGHT’s story– in their desperation, Gotham’s criminal underworld takes on a theatricality to match Batman’s, while their efforts become more pronounced and destructive.

Batman’s vigilantism inspires a slew of copycat wanna-be’s decked out in hockey pads and armed with shotguns.  Even Batman’s crime-fighting techniques become more invasive and unethical as he’s forced to lower himself to combat The Joker’s unconventional campaign.

Indeed, Christopher Nolan uses THE DARK KNIGHT to explore how the cost of justice is higher when doing combat with an agent of chaos– the sheer unpredictability and absence of a pattern necessitates the blurring of the thin blue line that stands between criminality and law & order.  While these ideas resonate regardless of time or context, THE DARK KNIGHT felt profoundly resonant in 2008, drawing clear parallels to the Bush Administration’s use of overreaching measures like the Patriot Act to combat terrorism at home and abroad.

Critics were divided on whether Nolan’s treatment of the subject matter was critical or actually supportive of these policies, which reflects not on Nolan’s ability to convey a stance on the subject, but rather the ethical quandaries that such a complicated subject engenders.  Rather than simply retread his exploration of the justice system from BATMAN BEGINS, Nolan finds new avenues to wander, showing how the system is limited by the arbitrary boundaries of jurisdiction.

A city cop in New York simply can’t go and arrest someone in Boston, for example– only an agency with federal jurisdiction like the FBI can do that.  However, a vigilante unaffiliated with an official law enforcement agency has no such limitation.  THE DARK KNIGHT finds Batman venturing outside of Gotham for the first time on-screen, traveling to Hong Kong to forcibly extraditable a corrupt accountant back to Gotham to answer for his crimes there.

As Batman, he can do things the Gotham PD can’t– a power that serves him well when needed, but also casts the nature of his heroism into doubt.  One of the film’s most memorable lines belongs to Harvey Dent: “you either die a hero, or you live long enough to become the villain”.

The legality of Batman’s crimefighting forays has always been a grey area, but can usually be justified on an ethical level.  The nature of The Joker’s antagonism forces Batman to compromise his ethics, building a giant array of networked cell phones that visualizes signals into a kind of sonar so that he can better track his nemesis.

Indeed, the manipulation of communications systems like cell phones, satellites, and transmission towers as weapons to use against the populace echoes BATMAN BEGINS’ use of water & transportation systems for similar ends.

The blatant privacy invasion of spying on the city’s population via their cell phones has profound implications for the righteousness of Batman’s quest, setting the stage for his self-imposed exile at the end of the film.

The Joker’s self-proclaimed “ace in the hole” is his turning of Dent into a homicidal maniac– a development that stands to destroy the morale of Gotham’s citizens and tear down everything Batman and Gordon have worked so far to build.  In order to beat The Joker, Batman realizes he must take the fall for Dent’s crimes, sacrificing his heroic standing so that the dream of a better Gotham can survive.

THE DARK KNIGHT represents a major turning point in the development of Nolan’s visual aesthetic, establishing a super-sized approach to cinematic spectacle that’s since become his dominant artistic signature.  The bulk of the picture was shot on 35mm film in the 2.35:1 aspect ratio, but in his pursuit of higher image quality over technical gimmickry, Nolan chose to shoot crucial action sequences and other select shots with IMAX cameras.

A longtime tenant in the nature documentary realm, IMAX had never been used to shoot all or even a portion of a conventional Hollywood feature, and for good reason: the cameras were gigantic, bulky, and cumbersome, and the mechanical noise produced by the 70mm film running horizontally through the camera meant that any sound captured on-set was often unusable.

Shooting a simple dialogue scene, let alone an ambitious action sequence, posed enormous logistical problems that would scare away any filmmaker– but Nolan was undeterred; he reasoned that if an IMAX camera could be lugged up into space, then there’s no reason it couldn’t be used for studio filmmaking.

This understandably caused no shortage of skepticism and trepidation on the part of Nolan’s crew — especially the Steadicam operator, who had to physically mount that monster onto his body on a regular basis — but Nolan’s supreme confidence and eagerness to innovate pushed them through their initial wariness to deliver an awe-inspiring cinematic experience the likes of which had never been seen before.

Nolan and returning cinematographer Wally Pfister found they had to adjust certain aspects of their style accordingly, such as designing their IMAX compositions to leave a significant amount of dead space at the top of the frame.

This was done to compensate for their discovery that audiences faced with a four-story screen had to keep their eyes trained towards the center out of sheer necessity.  While the use of IMAX is vital to conveying the truly epic scale of Nolan’s vision, its intermixing with the Cinemascope 35mm footage makes for an admittedly disorienting viewing experience at first– especially on home video.

While he uses IMAX mostly for self-contained sequences like the opening bank heist, he also employs it for select aerials and individual “statement” shots, which causes an abrupt change in the aspect ratio, filling out the screen at one moment and then compressing into the letterbox form factor in another.

To Nolan’s credit, however, one becomes quickly accustomed to the shift, and it ultimately doesn’t detract from the power of his storytelling.  It is a testament to Nolan’s reputation as a visionary that his use of IMAX has only seldomly been adopted by other directors– indeed, shooting a large portion of his films in the format has become a high-profile artistic signature of his, to the degree that anyone else who tries it risks being seen as a copycat or a pale imitation.

Rather than simply replicate the general aesthetic of BATMAN BEGINS, Nolan and returning collaborators, Wally Pfister and Nathan Crowley, expand upon its conceit of a cinematic reality by further embracing an air of immediate and visceral realism in the sequel.  Pfister’s cinematography departs from the amber-toned look of BATMAN BEGINS in favor of a colder, steel & stone color palette that consists primarily of greys, blues, and greens.

Nolan maintains his use of classical, spectacle-oriented camerawork, covering Batman’s crime-fighting forays with a mixture of grandiose dolly shots, majestic cranes, and sweeping helicopter aerials while also sprinkling in the occasional handheld move, speeding Russian arm maneuver, or circular dolly.

The circular dolly in particular is an admittedly overused technique in contemporary filmmaking — a quick and easy way to add stylistic flair — but Nolan finds the perfect use for it in a sequence where the Joker taunts Rachel Dawes at a high society political fundraiser, unmooring the audience’s sense of safety and building the suspense with a dizzying loss of control.

In a rather surprising move for a Batman film, Nolan chooses to stage a great deal of THE DARK KNIGHT in the cold light of day.  As such, the film’s aesthetic deals in bright washes of natural light instead of the sculpted theatricality of BATMAN BEGINS’ noir-influenced lighting scheme.

Crowley’s production design echoes this sentiment, foregoing the control of a soundstage for the tactile realism of a location shoot.  Nolan and his team once again use Chicago as the base for their particular conception of Gotham, but refrain from obscuring it behind layers of exaggeration and stylistic artifice as they did on BATMAN BEGINS.

As a result, the Gotham City of THE DARK KNIGHT feels like a real world location, and not one from a comic book.  Just look at the dramatic differences in the facade of Wayne Tower between the two films– BATMAN BEGINS features Wayne Tower as a grand Art Deco spire anchored to the center of Gotham, whereas THE DARK KNIGHT’s rendition is simply just another hulking slab of concrete and glass rendered in a generic, corporate style of architecture.

This isn’t Nolan and Crowley’s only major departure from established BATMAN lore– the sacking of Wayne Manor in the previous installment gives the filmmakers an excuse to relocate Bruce to a spartan penthouse high above the city, which makes for a compelling change of scenery while adhering to the core themes of Nolan’s story.

Gone too is the iconic Batcave, replaced by a minimalist bunker hidden underneath a shipping yard and accessed via an elevator hidden inside an unassuming container.  It’s here that Batman temporarily stores his computers, suits, and his Tumbler, which Nolan has the audacity to destroy during a major chase sequence.

In doing so, he reveals a secondary vehicle hidden inside: the Batpod, which is essentially a futuristic motorcycle built from the machinery around the Tumbler’s oversized front tires and gifted with the kind of supernatural maneuverability that the Hell’s Angels could only dream of.

The major risk in developing Batman’s world out to include more toys and tech is the power it gives to the merchandising department — it is, after all, the original sin that sunk Joel Schumacher’s BATMAN & ROBIN and put the franchise into a coma for nearly a decade.

Thankfully, Nolan’s expansion of Batman’s crime-fighting tools is done first and foremost in service to story, merchandising needs be damned.  This kind of artistic integrity strengthens his overall vision, giving it a palpable weight and gravitas that commonly eludes other comic book adaptations.

On the postproduction side, Nolan retains key collaborators like editor Lee Smith and composing team Hans Zimmer and James Newton Howard.  Grandiose but understated at the same time, Lee’s work often gets lost in the conversation, upstaged by the more immediate aspects of THE DARK KNIGHT’s craftsmanship.

However, Lee proves himself a crucial contributor to Nolan’s aesthetic, his ability to trace and intercut multiple parallel lines of action across one sustained sequence dovetailing effortlessly with Nolan’s epic scope and penchant for orchestrating the action like a symphony– each character thread becoming, in effect, its own instrument; played in harmony with the others and swelling to a climactic crescendo.

A prime example of this is the fateful sequence where Batman must choose to save Rachel Dawes or Harvey Dent, only for his choice to be foiled by The Joker’s tricky manipulations.

There’s several different threads going on here that Nolan and Smith must track– Rachel and Harvey being held captive, each in a separate location that’s primed to explode at the same time; Batman, racing across the city to save Rachel; Gordon with the assist, racing to the other end of the city to save Harvey; and The Joker, stuck in custody at the MCU and taunting his captors even as he puts his escape plan into action.

Nolan and Smith expertly orchestrate a cascading series of events towards their stunning conclusion, cross-cutting between the various threads so as to wring out the maximum amount of suspense.

The original score by Zimmer and Howard works overtime in this regard, driving the action with a thundering orchestral sound that develops and expands upon the themes introduced in BATMAN BEGINS.  A brand new theme for The Joker was to be expected, but Zimmer and Howard manage to produce a unique sound that no one could have expected.

Foregoing any sort of symphonic sound entirely, the composing team captures the anarchic essence of The Joker by distilling his theme down to a single, solitary note.  A mix of string instruments are electronically manipulated to produce an unconventional sound, their pitch seemingly escalating in perpetuity without breaking.

The effect is profoundly — and appropriately —  unsettling, like dancing on the edge of a razor.  The Joker’s theme mirrors the minimalism of Batman’s theme even as it becomes its ideological counterweight, musically reinforcing THE DARK KNIGHT’s emphasis on Batman’s and The Joker’s yin-and-yang relationship in an inspired and wholly unexpected manner.

With its ambitions and successful execution as a sprawling urban crime drama, THE DARK KNIGHT owes a profound debt to the influence of Michael Mann’s 1995 masterpiece, HEAT.  A self-styled acolyte of Mann’s, Nolan finds in THE DARK KNIGHT a prime opportunity to make his own HEAT equivalent, albeit one where the bank robbers wear clown masks instead of ski masks.

Indeed, there are many direct connections to Mann’s film that we can draw from THE DARK KNIGHT.  In both its conception and execution, the opening bank heist sequence reads as a comic book twist on HEAT’s centerpiece scene, right down to the tactical minutiae and precision timing the criminals employ to successfully carry out the operation.

It’s not a coincidence that William Fichtner cameos in this scene, his presence serving as a playful nod to his Van Zandt character from HEAT.  While Van Zandt was a fairly meek criminal banker predisposed to hiding out in his office when the going got rough, here he’s empowered with the braggadocious confidence that only a high-powered shotgun can provide.

HEAT’s influence continues to course through THE DARK KNIGHT, whether it’s the latter inheriting the former’s signature cobalt & steel color palette, or Bruce’s spartan penthouse echoing Neil McCauley’s infamously empty beachside condo.

The fateful interrogation sequence between Batman and The Joker riffs on HEAT’s iconic coffee shop scene, with both staging themselves respectively as a battle of wits between two men sitting around a table and psychoanalyzing each other until they realize they have met their ideological inverse and intellectual equal.

Additionally, Gordon is shown heading up Gotham’s Major Crimes Unit, the same department that Al Pacino’s Vincent Hanna commanded in HEAT.  Indeed, Nolan lavishes a substantial amount of attention on the inner workings of the law enforcement complex as it pertains to government and the maintaining of order.

Naturally, they have their work cut out for them in regards to The Joker, and must respond in a far more dramatic fashion than Hanna’s crew in HEAT ever did.  Among its many praises during release, critics marveled how THE DARK KNIGHT had transcended the trappings of the superhero genre to become a truly great urban crime drama– even then, the comparisons to HEAT were admittedly immediate, but the fact remains that, by applying HEAT’s storytelling template to the world of Batman, Nolan showed that a comic book movie could be so much more than its source material, and that the character of Batman was more relevant to our current political climate than ever before.

THE DARK KNIGHT echoes Tim Burton’s sequel BATMAN RETURNS, in that both he and Nolan found their sensibilities somewhat constrained on their respective first films by the nature of the property and the expectations of the fans.  In other words, they were compelled to deliver fairly straightforward takes on the Caped Crusader while suppressing certain aspects of their artistic signature.

The opportunity of a sequel repays their good faith, giving them more creative control as a reward for their responsible stewardship.  In this regard, THE DARK KNIGHT is first and foremost a Christopher Nolan film, and a Batman movie second.

The character provides a natural conduit for the exploration and development of many of Nolan’s directorial signatures, to the extent that THE DARK KNIGHT becomes a defining work in his filmography.

Nolan’s narratives have always concerned the personal and intimate plights of profoundly-flawed male protagonists, but BATMAN BEGINS marked the turning point where these plights began to play out on an epic, monumental scale.  The grief and rage that drives Bruce Wayne and his crime-fighting alter-ego had been well-established in BATMAN BEGINS and the decades of comic book lore prior, and those same scars continue to inform the character in THE DARK KNIGHT.

His psychological issues remain unresolved, even after delivering Gotham into a period of relative peace and prosperity– his parents are still dead, and his love for Rachel Dawes remains unrequited.  The events of THE DARK KNIGHT compound his trauma by shattering his hopes for a better life with Rachel, as well as his dream of the day when he can give up the mantle of Batman entirely.

Indeed, Bruce’s emotional trajectory throughout the film revolves around his questioning the necessity of Batman’s existence and the devastating consequences he’s wrought upon the city he swore to protect.  The two and a half-hour running time provides ample room for Bruce’s arc to play out on Nolan’s largest scale yet, showing how his actions reverberate throughout the whole of Gotham.

As mentioned previously, Nolan even finds the time and a justifiable narrative reason for Batman to travel to Hong Kong, further expanding the scope of his story while satisfying his own directorial fondness for globetrotting narratives.  While many other blockbuster spectacles can lay claim to a similar epic scale on running time or narrative sprawl alone, very few deliver it with the visceral weight and tangible physicality that THE DARK KNIGHT and Nolan’s larger filmography does.

His pursuit of practical effects wherever possible is undoubtedly a key contributor to this effect, grounding THE DARK KNIGHT’s astonishing cascade of spectacle with the gravity of real-world physics.

The world of computer-generated imagery allows us to destroy entire star systems or bring back actors long since dead, but as impressive as those visual feats are, they somehow pale in comparison to the visceral physicality of flipping a Freightliner upside-down on an actual city street or physically blowing up the entirety of a full-scale building.

Of course, one simply can’t make a movie like THE DARK KNIGHT without a generous dose of CGI, but by choosing practical in-camera effects wherever possible, Nolan successfully imbues the film with the kind of monumental gravitas that marked the classic epics from which he drew inspiration.

The bulk of Nolan’s larger filmography takes place in urban environs– as such, man’s relationship with architecture and the built environment forms an integral component of his artistic aesthetic.

THE DARK KNIGHT surveys the tapestry of urban life and its various social systems from a birds-eye view, encompassing so much of the city’s sprawl that many critics at the time argued a better title for the film would have been, simply, “GOTHAM CITY”.

Just as he examines how the contours of Gotham shape the flow of his narrative, so too does Nolan use THE DARK KNIGHT to explore the malleability of the urban landscape, and how those same contours can be actively reshaped for the purposes of criminality or justice.

Batman’s ability to glide between rooftops allows him to navigate the urban labyrinth of Gotham in a manner far different than the civilians below.  He can create doors and entrances for himself where there were none previously.

He can take advantage of negative space within a building’s design, turning it into a shortcut accessible only to him. An arsenal of equipment and a re-tooled Batsuit facilitates these abilities, giving him an edge by navigating Gotham in ways that conventional law enforcement officials cannot.

The Joker enjoys similar advantages, albeit through lower-tech tools like gunpowder and gasoline, but his use of them nonetheless positions him as Batman’s equal and a formidable counterweight.

Their mutual ascent to this elevated plane naturally manifests in a palpable theatricality, which Nolan balances with his artistic interest in functional style.  A common complaint shared by previous Batmen like Michael Keaton and Christian Bale’s current iteration alike is the sheer discomfort of Batman’s latex rubber suit– the outfit was a single, heavy piece that was hot, stuffy, and greatly restricted mobility and vision.

Bale famously channeled the anger and the crippling headaches he felt inside the suit into his performance for BATMAN BEGINS, using the pain and discomfort to his benefit.  For THE DARK KNIGHT, the filmmakers wanted to design a new, functional Batsuit that would reduce these problems, and so replaced the latex with individual plates of armor conjoined by a mesh undersuit.

The final result is a dramatic reinterpretation of Batman’s iconic outfit that maintains the classic silhouette– a design that Nolan actively works into the narrative by having Bruce communicate to Lucius Fox his desire for a more functional suit that can stand up to the elevated threat posed by The Joker.  The Clown Prince of Crime’s sartorial sensibilities also echo the conceit of functional style– his scraggly purple suit pays homage to the character’s classically campy appearance from the comic books while staying within the confines of Nolan’s grounded reality.

As evidenced by the fact that his handmade clothing contains no labels, The Joker’s choice of outfit appropriately conveys his anarchic identity, but it also serves a tactical use– whether it’s the cavernous pockets of his overcoat hiding an array of explosives rigged to his person, or a stinger blade hidden in his boots that can pop out at will.

Finally, one cannot talk about THE DARK KNIGHT as a definitive work in Nolan’s canon without mention of what is arguably the core component of his directorial identity– time, and the manipulation thereof.  BATMAN BEGINS unspooled in somewhat non-linear fashion, incorporating flashbacks at strategic story junctures as Bruce gradually became Batman.

With his vigilante alter-ego firmly established, THE DARK KNIGHT naturally inhabits a constant forward flow of time; its story progressing in linear order.  That being said, the manipulation of time does serve an important narrative function.  The trope of the “ticking clock” is about as cliched as they come, but it’s nonetheless a vital tool to generate suspense for the audience.

The Joker incorporates this tool into his own arsenal, using “the ticking clock” as a way to persuade his victims to act against their self-interests or compromise their principles.  The best instance of this is also one of the highlights of the entire film– a nail-biting suspense sequence where two ferries carrying a load of law-abiding civilians and incarcerated felons respectively are revealed to be rigged with explosives.

The Joker’s characteristic twist on the situation is that he’s given both boats the detonator to the other bomb, challenging them each to blow the other sky-high before a predetermined time– if neither side hits the button before time runs out, then he’ll personally blow both boats with his own detonator.  This sets up an agonizing moral quandary for the occupants of either boat: do they destroy the other boat to save their own lives?  The fact that one of the boats is filled with convicted criminals adds another wrinkle to the dilemma– the law-abiding civilians would be justified in hitting the button, citing their fear that the criminals would not have the same respect for human life as they do.

However, to do so would be to pass blind judgment on the inmates, denying their humanity and capacity for compassion and, in effect, making them more inhuman than the killers and rapists they stand to destroy.

This sequence, which could have made for a captivating feature film in its own right, uses the pressure of a ticking clock to effortlessly distill THE DARK KNIGHT’s core conflict between civilized society and anarchy to its ideological essence.

Additionally, Nolan’s fondness for cross-cutting between parallel threads of action allows him to manipulate time himself, compressing it into one cosmic instance across sprawling distances.  Naturally, this does away with the objective truth that real time provides, but Nolan inherently understands that cinema has the unique ability to subvert the flow of time while uncovering the emotional truth hidden underneath.

To Nolan, time is not an unstoppable, forward-marching force beyond our control — it is merely another storytelling tool; a dimension that can be stepped outside of and manipulated to his will.  THE DARK KNIGHT makes frequent use of this technique, structuring its story around several nexus points of action like the opening bank heist, the Hong Kong extradition, the Wacker Drive chase, or the hostage situation in the unfinished tower, and subsequently compressing time and space into tidy narrative blocks that each build to a cathartic emotional release.

The end result is an experience that some critics decried as a breathless succession of 3rd-Act climaxes– an admittedly reductive judgment, to be sure, but one that aims to convey the impression that a lot happens in THE DARK KNIGHT.

Simply put, Nolan’s vision for the film is exhaustive; his epic ambitions and his tackling of some of the most iconic aspects of Batman lore combine to make what is arguably the ultimate screen adaptation of the Caped Crusader.  Nolan’s ability to compress long narrative distances over short spans of time is a key aspect of his artistic skill set, and in the case of THE DARK KNIGHT, it is a major driving force behind the film’s critical and commercial success.

Indeed, to call THE DARK KNIGHT “a success” is an extreme understatement– it’s essentially THE GODFATHER PART II of superhero films in both execution and critical standing.  By any reasonable metric, the film’s release and reception proved a watershed moment in mainstream studio filmmaking, the effects of which are still reverberating across the cinematic landscape nearly a decade later.

Just as BATMAN BEGINS sparked the trend of the “dark and gritty” reboot, THE DARK KNIGHT inspired a countless wave of bombastic imitators that drew the wrong lessons from Nolan’s success, like equating an epic scope with bloated running times or reveling in misguided dramatic beats masquerading as “bold” storytelling.

Produced for $185 million dollars and scoring over a billion dollars in ticket sales to become the 26th highest-grossing film of all time, THE DARK KNIGHT was a box office success of biblical proportions.  To put this into perspective, it only took six days for THE DARK KNIGHT to surpass the numbers posted by BATMAN BEGINS’ entire domestic run.

The film’s monumental success was the result of a perfect storm of factors: it belonged to an iconic franchise with a rabid global fanbase, it was a highly-anticipated sequel to a well-received predecessor, and it was film by a director known for his riveting storytelling and impeccable technical craftsmanship, to name just a few.

The X factor, the one thing it had that other films of its caliber did not, was Ledger’s tragic death– and the morbid curiosity it fueled at the prospect of witnessing the final performance of an actor as such a ghoulish character.

Nolan’s desire to transcend the confines of the comic book genre propelled THE DARK KNIGHT all the way to the Oscars, where it was nominated in eight categories and would win for Best Sound Editing and Best Supporting Actor.

The Academy obviously leaves a tangible impression on the films it honors, but rarely does it happen the other way around– THE DARK KNIGHT’s failure to score a nomination for Best Picture or Best Director was seen by many in the industry as an injustice (if not an outright travesty), and the ensuing chatter was so loud that, the following year, the Academy doubled the number of nomination slots in the Best Picture category from five to ten in a bid to be more inclusive of well-received films that didn’t quiet meet the conventional expectations of an “Oscar-worthy” picture.

It may have failed to enshrine itself in Oscar glory, but THE DARK KNIGHT is a triumph from every conceivable angle.

It’s not hyperbole to call THE DARK KNIGHT the most quintessential mainstream American film of the 2000’s– its identity is profoundly shaped by the ideas and anxieties that drove the course of history around it.

As for Christopher Nolan himself, the film is arguably his most definitive work– the capstone to a towering and influential body of work that still has several decades yet to play out.


INCEPTION (2010)

With the staggering success of THE DARK KNIGHT, director Christopher Nolan was in a prime position to make whatever he wanted.  Rather than capitalize off his momentum with a third Batman film, he turned instead to a long-gestating passion project he’d been thinking about since he was a teenager.

He’d always been fascinated by the experience of dreams, drawing many parallels between the nonlinear logic of dreamscapes to his professional practice as a filmmaker.

He pitched his initial kernel of this idea to Warner Brothers after the completion of INSOMNIA, describing it as something of a horror film set within the architecture of the mind.  With the studio’s approval, he went off to write it as a spec that he would simply deliver as soon as he finished it.

That process would ultimately take eight years, its slow pace dictated by the rigorous mind pretzels required in formulating its plot as well as his expansive and time-consuming forays into the Batman universe.  Given the name INCEPTION, the script that Nolan delivered to Warner Brothers in 2009 was a far cry from what he had initially pitched– indeed, he had orchestrated an action thriller so complex and stunningly inventive that it could be thought of as the ultimate “high concept” movie.

Naturally, the price tag to realize such an effort would be enough to stop other filmmakers in their tracks, but INCEPTION’s $160 million budget was an easy ask considering Nolan had just delivered one of Warner Brother’s most successful films in its century-long history.

Even then, the studio had to partner with Legendary Pictures just to cover it all.  In relatively short order, Nolan and his producing partner / wife, Emma Thomas, were off shooting his seventh feature film– one of the most ambitious and original visions cinema had ever seen.

INCEPTION is structured as a fantastical heist set, in Nolan’s words, within the architecture of the mind.  While the story is packed with an overwhelming amount of fantastical imagery, arguably the most outlandish aspect is the proposed existence of experimental military technology that allows people to enter and act within an individual’s dreams.  Nolan’s story focuses on a rogue group that has repurposed this technology to extract information from a target’s subconscious in the name of corporate espionage.

As mentioned in a previous episode, Nolan’s microbudget indie debut FOLLOWING can be read as something like a first draft of the story that would ultimately become INCEPTION.  Both films are structured as heists of the mind, and both feature a slickly-dressed character named Cobb.

Leonardo DiCaprio plays the latter iteration– a major score for Nolan personally, as he had endeavored to work with the actor many times before and had thus far been unable to secure his participation.

It’s interesting, then, to note that DiCaprio’s portrayal of protagonist Dom Cobb seems to be a fictionalization of Nolan himself, from his unique intellectual acuity down to the external aspects like a shared hairstyle, goatee, and buttoned-down sartorial sense.

The latest tortured hero in Nolan’s grand parade of them, Cobb is a reluctant expat with a tragic past, and is given the chance to return to his children in the States by a wealthy Japanese businessman named Saito.

Played by BATMAN BEGINS’ Ken Watanabe in a role that makes full use of his refined talents, Saito offers Cobb this last shot at redemption in exchange for a journey into the mind of a business rival with the aim to plant the idea of dissolving his company into his mind.
To help him achieve this task, Cobb recruits a crew of professionals, each with their own specialty.

In determining what particular talents would translate to the manipulation of the dream state, Nolan used the roles he knew best:  the various positions of a film crew.  As such, each member of Cobb’s team possesses expertise and experience analogous to the filmmaking process. If Cobb is the director, then his manager / researcher, Arthur, is his producer.

Played by Joseph Gordon-Levitt, Arthur is cool, calm, and collected under pressure, but finds himself frequently tangling with Cobb over things he couldn’t have accounted for.  The production designer finds her analogue in Ellen Page’s Ariadne, a graduate architecture student who puts her talents to work designing the worlds of these dreams.

A charismatic master of disguise, Tom Hardy’s character, Eames, describes himself as a “forger”, embodying any role needed to manipulate the target much like an actor does.  Saito acts much like a studio, bankrolling the entire operation and insisting on overseeing the process so that he can ensure his funds are spent wisely.

All of the crew’s efforts are focused towards manipulating the emotions of Robert Fischer, the petulant heir to a vast business empire.  Played by Cillian Murphy in his third of many appearances throughout Nolan’s work, Fischer becomes aware of the crew’s attempts to deceive and incept him.

They must suspend his disbelief while appealing to his emotion, to the extent that they eventually bring him into the heist himself as an active participant.  Knowing all this, it becomes clear that Fischer is akin to the audience, albeit a particularly savvy one that’s seen it all before and stands resistant to cinema’s transcendent charms.

Nolan’s supporting cast doesn’t quite deal in the same clear-cut filmmaking metaphors as Cobb’s crew, but they nevertheless turn in compelling performances that reinforce the director’s ability to attract some of the finest talent around. Since BATMAN BEGINS, Michael Caine has become a stalwart presence in Nolan’s work.

His performance here as university professor and Cobb’s father-in-law, Miles, amounts to little more than a cameo in terms of screentime, but his presence injects a profound emotional resonance to the story by making him the last living link Cobb has to his own children.

Marion Cotillard plays Cobb’s deceased wife, Mal, who killed herself over her inability to separate her dreams from her reality and now lives on as a malevolent projection of Cobb’s subconscious, sabotaging his efforts at every turn.

The character is arguably more of a plot device than a full-fledged entity, but Cotillard nevertheless gives it her all, creating a beautiful, menacing ghost who haunts not just Cobb’s dreams, but every aspect of his waking life.

Lukas Haas, Dileep Rao, Tom Berenger, and Pete Postlethwaite round out INCEPTION’s cast of note: Haas as the original architect on Cobb’s crew who’s given up to Saito’s colleagues when he bungles a mission; Rao as the chemist who creates the specialized sedative that enables shared dreaming; Postlethwaite, in one of his final roles, as Robert Fischer’s bedridden father; and Berenger as Fischer’s business partner and an advisor of sorts to Robert.

Visually speaking, INCEPTION is arguably Nolan’s most audacious work, filled to the brim with wild, impossible imagery.  Nolan continues his creative partnership with cinematographer Wally Pfister, who would go on to win the Academy Award for his efforts here.

INCEPTION reinforces Nolan’s commitment to film, as well as his preference for large formats over marketing gimmickry like 3D– indeed, the studio had initially approached him to shoot the film in 3D, but thankfully Nolan had the clout to flat-out deny their request.  Instead, he and Pfister capture their preferred 2.35:1 frame on good, old-fashioned 2D 35mm film.  Despite his positive experiences shooting on IMAX cameras for THE DARK KNIGHT, Nolan doesn’t employ the format here, but he does use the 65mm film gauge for select shots.

For an action thriller taking place entirely inside the mind, INCEPTION boasts a staggering, monumental scope consistent with his previous work.  Towards that end, Nolan blends classical and modern camerawork, mixing grandiose crane and helicopter aerial shots with visceral handheld setups and smooth Steadicam runs.

The story also provides ample opportunity to explore varying frame rates, availing Nolan of techniques like speed-ramping and extreme slow motion to better convey the varying speeds of time across parallel tiers of dream space.

A somewhat-neutral stone & steel palette drives the overall color theory behind INCEPTION, but Nolan and Pfister take great pains to establish distinct looks for the various dreamscapes– especially during the climactic sequence, as a means for the audience to better track their orientation across a relentless cascade of cross-cuts and parallel action.

The first tier, in which Yusuf wildly drives a van to evade his pursuers, uses a torrential downpour of rain to justify a foggy, cold look with a heavy cobalt color cast.  The next tier down is the hotel, rendered in a warm amber patina and pools of concentrated light.

Going another level down, a snowy mountainscape topped by a concrete fortress deals in stark monochromatic tones, with little else but the crew’s skin tones to provide color.  Finally, we come to limbo–raw, unstructured dream space where decades can pass in a span of minutes in real time.  Nolan and Pfister use varying shades of gray here, as if to suggest the pure building blocks of the subconscious before we color them in with our experiences and our environment.

Expectedly, a considerable amount of computer-generated imagery is necessary to fully realize limbo, as well as some of the more outlandish visuals the film presents.

However, Nolan stays true to his convictions regarding the supremacy of practical effects, always using an in-camera element as the foundation of the shot and employing digital wizardry only when absolutely necessary.

As such, INCEPTION boasts far fewer digital effects shots than most spectacle epics of its ilk– 500 compared to today’s standard of 2000 plus.

Christopher Nolan goes to great lengths to reinforce his legacy as a visual magician of the highest order– where other filmmakers would simply let computers digitally insert a train ramming through downtown traffic, Nolan drops a physical train onto a real street, rigging it up in the precise manner needed to achieve the shot.

In his pursuit of delivering the impossible through practical effects, he even manages to one-up director Stanley Kubrick by expanding upon the techniques he developed for 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY’s mind-bending space station sequences.

In order to realize a stunning hallway fight sequence in varying degrees of gravity, Nolan builds the entirety of the set on a massive gimbal capable of tilting every conceivable angle while also rotating a full 360 degrees.

By fixing the camera’s perspective to the set and not the actors’, he’s able to create breathtaking images of fighting on ceilings and walls.  This drive to shoot as much in-camera as possible informs Nolan’s overall visual approach, making us believe in the impossible while safeguarding his creation from the inevitable advances in digital effects technology that otherwise might date INCEPTION’s visuals as crude and primitive.

Nolan’s longtime production designer Nathan Crowley is absent here, leaving Guy Hendrix Dyas to act in his stead.  The rest of Nolan’s core team of collaborators remains intact, with returning editor Lee Smith expertly navigating the labyrinthine and intellectually-dense plotting, and composer Hans Zimmer providing yet another instantly-iconic original score.

Zimmer’s innovative, minimalist inclinations would not only score him an Oscar nomination, but would also go on to influence pop culture in surprising ways.  A blend of old and new sounds, the score finds Zimmer recruiting The Smiths’ Johnny Marr to perform a moody electric guitar riff that recalls the midcentury cool of the James Bond films.

This element serves as the base of a larger electronic and orchestral texture, with thundering brass and lush strings that also would not be out of place in a Bond film.  Nolan doesn’t employ needledrops often, so when he does, the audience would do well to pay close attention to its importance to the narrative at hand.

In this regard, Nolan incorporates an Edith Piaf song directly into the storyline, becoming an audio cue that Cobb’s crew employs to sync up their timescales across multiple tiers of dreamscape.

Zimmer takes this idea and runs with it, slowing down the track to the point where it becomes an unrecognizable texture of raw sound and throbbing percussion.  In the process, he achieves what is easily one of INCEPTION’s biggest contributions to pop culture– the brassy “BRAHM” blasts that countless movie trailers have since copied to the point of parody.

A film stuffed to the brim with the themes and imagery that Nolan has spent a lifetime exploring, it’s not inconceivable to see INCEPTION as the director’s most definitive work– even more so than THE DARK KNIGHT, when considering its original storyline, unencumbered by the constraints of any pre-existing intellectual property.

The narrative affords Nolan the opportunity to explore and indulge in his fascination with the mechanics of time in a comprehensive and integral manner– befitting their place in a heist film, Cobb’s crew naturally races against a ticking clock, but they are uniquely positioned to alter the bounds of the race itself.

The relativistic relationship of time across several parallel tiers of the subconscious becomes their ace in the hole.  By venturing deeper into a dream-within-a-dream, into a dream-within-a-dream-within-a-dream, and so on, Cobb’s crew finds that time slows down in proportion to the tier above it.

What passes for a minute of real time would be an hour in tier 1 of the dreamscape, while decades will pass in limbo during that same span.  Likewise, when Saito is shot early on during the heist, he’s able to regain some of his health, his wounds working slower and slower as he descends the various tiers.

INCEPTION’s unique take on the mechanics of time is a singular signature of Nolan’s– only he could stage a twenty-minute action sequence within the time it takes for a van to plunge off a bridge into the water.

The heist format enables Nolan’s further exploration of functional style, evidenced in the slick, well-tailored suits that Cobb’s crew wear throughout the film as a manifestation of their professional attitude.

The constant presence of suits, tactical combat gear, and even tuxedos can’t help but remind one of the James Bond films– no doubt an intentional move on Nolan’s part as a lifelong fan of the series.  Indeed, INCEPTION at times feels like Nolan’s audition for the director’s chair on the Bond franchise, right down to the snow fortress ski chase designed to pay tribute to his favorite 007 film, ON HER MAJESTY’S SECRET SERVICE.

The globetrotting nature of Nolan’s aesthetic, and INCEPTION in particular, reinforces this notion, featuring the characters jetting around to exotic locales like Mombasa, Paris and Tokyo as well as abstract interior spaces like limbo.  Nolan even structures the climactic heist so that it takes place while his characters are flying over the Pacific.

Like THE DARK KNIGHT before it, INCEPTION also draws considerable influence from Michael Mann’s HEAT, in that Nolan stages his own version of that film’s iconic downtown LA shootout– albeit with a degree of restraint that keeps his efforts in service to the story and firmly out of the territory of full-blown homage.

As evidenced by the logo of Nolan’s production company, Syncopy, the iconography of mazes and puzzles have become a defining feature of his artistry– a conceit that INCEPTION revels in with its labyrinthine plot structures that turn the world around its characters into a giant Rubik’s Cube.

Architecture and the malleability of the urban environment plays a big role in this regard, as the characters are empowered via lucid dreaming to actively reshape the environment around them.

This leads to some of the film’s most iconic imagery, such as the scene where Ariadne peels back the horizon as if it were on a hinge, causing whole city blocks to fold over on themselves.  The plane of limbo becomes a veritable playground as the characters build entire cities for themselves, spending decades in an endless sprawl of imposing monoliths that grow more faceless and abstract as they extend outwards.

It is here that architectural styles can clash together, achieving a strange harmony in their impossible pairings.  One need look no further than Dom and Mal’s earthy, craftsman-style home situated high above the city inside a sleek modern tower.  INCEPTION makes brilliant use of this idea of paradoxical architecture, exploring the strategic value of impossible structures like the Penrose stairs, which only become possible from a singular point of view.

No discussion of INCEPTION would be complete without addressing its infamous ending, the implications of which are still hotly debated across internet forums and college dorms.

In a film loaded with symbolic imagery, the closing image of a top spinning on the table– wobbling ever so slightly before abruptly cutting to black– is arguably INCEPTION’s most provoking one.  The audience finds itself left on a sharply ambiguous final note, and an extremely frustrating one for those who prefer their movies to spell everything out for them.  Is Cobb truly free of his dreams, or is he still trapped somewhere in his unconscious?

The question has inspired numerous armchair detectives to suss out an objective truth– most investigations point to Cobb’s wedding ring as his personal totem, and the film’s key signifier as to whether or not we are currently in a dream state.  Cobb sports his ring in the dream sequences, but in his waking reality he appears without it.  When he lands in Los Angeles at the end of the film, he’s not wearing his ring.

This, along with the presence of Michael Caine– who had only appeared previously in a scene ostensibly set in waking reality– should be our chief clue that Cobb has ultimately woken up and joined the objective timeline.  However, even this is a deception– Nolan explicitly states via Arthur that one cannot use another’s totem, for fear of losing touch with reality.  Despite Cobb’s constant use of a spinning top, we know that it is actually Mal’s totem.

This raises the question of whether Cobb has been lost in his own subconscious from the very start.  To Nolan, the question is irrelevant– he’s gone on record to express his sentiment that it’s whether or not the top is going to topple that’s important, but rather, for the first time in the film, Cobb isn’t watching it.  After spending much of the film obsessing over this little spinning top, he has moved on emotionally, finding happiness in his reunion with his family.

Far from a final “gotcha” twist, INCEPTION’s ending arguably hits a precise note, cementing the film’s murky ambiguity between dreams and waking reality while challenging his audience with the notion that our own realities can be just as subjective.
Billed on its release as “the new Matrix”, a staggering $100 million marketing budget endeavored to convey INCEPTION as an explosive head-trip that played fast and loose with the laws of physics.

The number is all the more remarkable considering its release in an era where franchise filmmaking is king– in the absence of any pre-existent intellectual property, Warner Brothers leveraged the success of BATMAN BEGINS and THE DARK KNIGHT to present Nolan himself as the franchise.  The strategy worked beautifully, driving worldwide box office receipts north of $800 million and generating a wave of critical acclaim.

INCEPTION’s top-flight craftsmanship earned itself a small collection of golden statues come Oscar season, with the Academy celebrating the film’s technical innovations in categories like Best Cinematography, Best Sound Editing, Best Sound Mixing, and Best Visual Effects.  If THE DARK KNIGHT established Nolan as one of mainstream American cinema’s most valuable filmmakers, then INCEPTION chiseled it in stone and enshrined it in gold.


DARK KNIGHT RISES (2012)

Despite the record-shattering success of 2008’s THE DARK KNIGHT, the promise of an early retirement-enabling payday and a higher budget than the GDP of most small countries, the prospect of Nolan returning to the world of Batman a third time initially inspired hesitance.  There was no ill will or negative experience fueling his reluctance, but rather, the demons of artistic integrity.

“How many good third movies of a franchise can people name?”, Nolan reportedly asked of himself; indeed, he was all too cognizant of the hard and simple truth that, more often than not, threequels turn out to be the worst entry of a given franchise.  Case in point: THE GODFATHER PART III, or  SPIDER-MAN 3– even RETURN OF THE JEDI was arguably disappointing in relation to the episodes before it.  THE RETURN OF THE KING, Peter Jackson’s third chapter of his LORD OF THE RINGS TRILOGY, seemed the exception to the rule, what with its several Oscar wins including Best Picture.

Even then, THE LORD OF THE RINGS is usually regarded as a single, unified narrative rather than three separate installments.  Simply put, Nolan valued his artistic integrity over a dump truck full of cash, and if he was going to return to Gotham City for a third time, there needed to be a great — and necessary — story to tell.

He kept the opportunity in the back of his mind as he shot INCEPTION, even going so far as sketching out rough outlines as to what a third Batman film might entail.  His initial plan, which would have seen Two-Face become the main villain after The Joker throws acid on his face during his trial, was no longer an option considering Heath Ledger’s death and his earlier decision to fold Two-Face’s villainous arc into the climax of THE DARK KNIGHT.

Once Nolan hit on the idea of using a third film to definitively end his rendition of Batman, the necessary elements that would ensure his return began to come together.

As they had done for their previous Batman films, Nolan and his screenwriting partner and brother, Jonathan, looked for inspiration in classic graphic like KNIGHTFALL, NO MAN’S LAND, and Frank Miller’s THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS.

The brothers also drew from unexpected literary sources like Charles Dickens’ “A Tale of Two Cities”, braiding its themes of violent revolution and massive social upheaval into their massive script– the first draft of which apparently ran four hundred pages long.

Titled THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, the project quickly asserted itself as Nolan’s most ambitious effort to date, with a story containing no less than the fall of modern civilization and the potential death of millions within its staggering scope.

Thankfully, Nolan had a crack team of producers at his disposal– his wife Emma Thomas and Atlas Entertainment’s Charles Roven, both of whom had been invaluable allies in making Nolan’s previous Batman visions possible.

Given that this was as close to a surefire billion-dollar blockbuster one could possibly get, Warner Brothers saw little problem in greenlighting Nolan’s massive epic despite a price tag upwards of $200 million.

Their unwavering faith in Nolan’s ability– a faith that’s practically unheard of in modern commercial filmmaking– gave him the creative freedom and near-unlimited funds he needs to fill in his largest canvas yet while ending his groundbreaking DARK KNIGHT TRILOGY on his own terms.

Escalation has been a key foundational principle in Nolan’s take on Batman.  As the stakes of his crusade have intensified, so too has Nolan expanded the scope of the Dark Knight’s world.

With each successive installment, the narrative scale has ballooned exponentially, so where else can THE DARK KNIGHT RISES go but the uppermost strata of epic spectacle?

Eight years have passed since Harvey Dent fell to his death and Batman took the blame, going into exile to protect Gotham’s citizens from the devastating revelation that their White Knight had been twisted into a murderous psychopath named Two-Face.

In that time, Gotham has entered a period of relative peace and prosperity– a city no longer in need of a vigilante savior.  So too has Bruce Wayne gone into exile, sealing himself away in the newly-rebuilt Wayne Manor like a Howard Hughes-style recluse.

Christian Bale returns for his third and final appearance as Bruce, bearing the signs of significant wear and tear as he hobbles around on a cane throughout his mausoleum of a mansion.

Without Batman, he’s a sad, lonely figure– a man without a purpose, and after the death of his beloved Rachel Dawes, a man with very little left to live for.  He’s finally shaken from his long stupor when a prized personal memento — his mother’s pearl necklace — is stolen by a crafty cat burglar posing as a caterer during a gathering for the anniversary of Harvey Dent’s death and the passing of sweeping anti-crime legislation in his name.

This development coincides with a number of others simultaneously swirling around Gotham, like clouds gathering for a massive storm that will make Bruce’s return as the Caped Crusader not only inevitable, but necessary.

Indeed, Christopher Nolan has many masters to serve in THE DARK KNIGHT RISES– not only does he have to cook up compelling narrative arcs for a suite of new characters; he has to service lingering threads from the previous two installments while bringing everything to a satisfying close.

As a result, THE DARK KNIGHT RISES clocks in at a truly monumental two hours and 45 minutes long– every second being essential to the advancement of Nolan’s narrative.  Naturally, there’s a lot of story to cover, and Nolan doesn’t have the luxury of dwelling on huge developments.

The startling revelations and showstopping sequences come so fast and furious that the audience must race just to catch their breath, but that is the magnitude of scale that, unwittingly or not, Nolan has set up for himself.  Indeed, nothing less than the threat of Gotham City’s full-stop annihilation will satisfy Nolan’s narrative and thematic requirements.

This necessary existential threat is embodied in the figure of Bane, an ideological zealot excommunicated from The League of Shadows (previously embodied in Liam Neeson’s Ra’s Al Ghul in BATMAN BEGINS).

A relatively new figure in Batman’s rogue gallery, Bane became a high-profile villain instantly upon his comic book debut in the early 1990’s by breaking Batman’s back and putting him out of commission for several years.

The character had made a filmic appearance before, in Joel Schumacher’s disastrous 1997 film, BATMAN & ROBIN, but the filmmakers had stripped him entirely of his formidable intellect and reduced him to a one-note, brutish henchman of Uma Thurman’s Poison Ivy.

He had been so badly mishandled that the revelation of his inclusion in THE DARK KNIGHT RISES was initially met with profound skepticism by fans, if not outright derision.  However, Nolan’s choice of villain had always been informed by the story’s key ideas and formative themes first– he reportedly rejected early pressure from Warner Brothers to cast Leonardo DiCaprio as The Riddler, refusing to build his narrative around a predetermined villain.

THE DARK KNIGHT RISES required an adversary who could match Batman on both the physical and mental level, and Bane — at least in his comic-book incarnation — fit the mold.

Like The Scarecrow or The Joker before him, Nolan’s rendition of Bane is informed by a grounded reality that ditches his usual mutant-luchador aesthetic in favor of a militaristic, revolutionary edge complete with a monstrous mask that delivers san analgesic gas to quell crippling chronic pain from a prior injury.

He arrives in Gotham to finish Ra’s Al Ghul’s mission to annihilate the city, although his strategy — to cut Gotham off from the outside world and use the threat of a nuclear bomb to turn the city’s economic classes against each other — is decidedly more sadistic than his predecessor’s.

He plans to nuke the city anyway, but first he wants to systematically break down the people’s confidence in their own civilization while figures like Batman and Commissioner Gordon are forced to helplessly watch their beloved city tear itself apart.

Tom Hardy, one of three cast members to make the jump from INCEPTION to Nolan’s Batman saga, reportedly gained thirty pounds for the role, transforming himself into a hulking brute with a brilliant, tactically-oriented intelligence.

Hardy faced a considerable challenge in playing Bane, considering the cumbersome mask that covers half his face– all that intellect and unhinged megalomania had to be conveyed entirely with his eyes.

As such, Hardy infuses Bane’s eyes with the quiet intensity of conviction, his piercing stare commanding his small army of mercenaries like a brutish cult leader.  One of the more peculiar aspects of Hardy’s performance is the particular voice he uses, affecting a high-pitched musicality inspired by the voice of Bartley Gorman, a Romani gypsy and Irish bare-knuckle boxing champion.

The choice, while unnervingly effective, wasn’t without controversy– audiences in early screenings of the film’s opening prologue complained they couldn’t understand Bane’s dialogue at all.  The final product alleviated those concerns, thankfully, allowing the full power of Hardy’s showstopping performance to shine through and achieve a pop culture infamy similar to the type enjoyed by Heath Ledger and his interpretation of The Joker.

Nolan also brings back INCEPTION’s Marion Cotillard, who plays a new character named Miranda Tate.  An enchanting member of Wayne Enterprises’ Board of Directors, Miranda is initially positioned as Bruce Wayne’s best hope for the continued operation of his profit-draining fusion energy program.  Cotillard brings her signature elegance to the role, presenting herself as a potential love interest for Bruce who can help soothe the lingering pain of Rachel Dawes’ death.

However, Miranda has other plans in store– namely, using Bruce’s trust and her corporate credentials to gain access to a nuclear fusion reactor underneath the city.  At the risk of spoiling one of the film’s biggest twists, Miranda eventually asserts herself not only as the true mastermind behind Bane’s evil plan, but also as a key figure that links THE DARK KNIGHT RISES directly to BATMAN BEGINS.

With only so much screen-time left to realize the vast universe of Batman characters and plot lines, Nolan risks painting a picture that feels, at best, incomplete. His grounded interpretation of the property naturally would exclude some of Batman’s more fanciful villains like The Penguin, Killer Croc, or Clayface, but there are some characters that are so iconic that any version of the Caped Crusader would feel lacking in their absence.

Thankfully, Nolan is able to smuggle in two more just under the wire, albeit radically reimagined from their comic book counterparts.  The character of Catwoman is integral to Batman’s universe, but is admittedly too theatrical for Nolan’s take on the property.

He strikes a satisfying middle ground in casting Anne Hathaway as Selina Kyle, downplaying the slinky cat burglar’s feline affectations to the point where the name “Catwoman” is never even uttered.

Instead, Nolan and Hathaway rely on the character’s duplicitous mystique to convey her comic book heritage (in addition to subtle visual cues like a pair of night vision goggles that resemble cat ears when flipped up on top of her head).

Drawing from the classic femme fatale archetype, Hathaway further honors Catwoman’s origins by basing her performance on the Hollywood Golden Age starlet Hedy Lemarr, the original inspiration for Catwoman in the comics.

THE DARK KNIGHT RISES finds Selina Kyle attempting to obtain a secret device that will erase her criminal history and allow her to start over with a clean slate– a path that conveniently crosses Batman’s while communicating her murky moral compass.  Additionally, her self-aware cynicism allows Nolan to infuse an otherwise somber and bleak storyline with crowd pleasing moments of natural levity.

The other iconic character whose absence would make for an incomplete depiction of the Batman universe is his sidekick, Robin.  It’s admittedly difficult to imagine how the plucky Boy Wonder would fit into Nolan’s grim and grounded approach– indeed, Bale has gone on record to say that he would leave the franchise if Nolan ever brought Robin into the storyline.

With the inclusion of INCEPTION’s Joseph Gordon Levitt as a driven young cop named John Blake, Nolan gets to have his cake and eat it too.  The fresh-faced rookie doesn’t just share Batman’s burning passion for justice– he also feels a direct kinship with him, having also grown up as an orphan and felt the need to hide his emotions behind a figurative mask.  Indeed, it is this quality that allows him to deduce Batman’s secret identity when no else can.

While he doesn’t become Batman’s sidekick in the traditional sense, Blake’s tireless ambition nevertheless positions him both as a crucial ally in the quest to take back Gotham from Bane’s vice grip as well as an ideal successor to the Batman mantle itself– playing beautifully into Nolan’s vision of Batman as an incorruptible symbol beyond the reach of death or decay.

Nolan throws a brief nod to Robin’s place in the annals of Batman lore by revealing Blake’s real name to actually be “Robin”, thus bringing all of the character’s thematic and functional qualities to his vision of Batman while dropping the sillier, distracting elements.

Nolan’s sprawling supporting ensemble is marked by faces both familiar and new, with the one consistent quality among them being an impeccable pedigree.  Michael Caine, Gary Oldman, and Morgan Freeman all return as Bruce’s triptych of mentors, allies and father figures– their own respective arcs reaching their logical ends in a satisfying manner.

Caine’s reprisal of Bruce’s trusty butler, Alfred, finds an unexpected degree of emotionality, having reached a breaking point in his relationship with Bruce where he can no longer abide his reckless risks.  He regrets indulging his master’s whims, fearing he’s created a monster while betraying his sworn duty to Bruce’s parents.

Oldman’s third turn as Commissioner Gordon sees his character on the verge of retirement– a war hero rendered useless and irrelevant by a prolonged peace.  He too is disillusioned and burdened, deeply ashamed of his role in the cover-up of Harvey Dent’s death and the lies he has perpetuated since.

The events of THE DARK KNIGHT RISES gives Gordon one last chance at redemption, enlisting him to serve his beloved Gotham City as he never has before.  Freeman, as the usually-jovial head of Wayne Enterprises, Lucius Fox, also finds that his association with Batman has dug him into a deep hole, forced by Bane to pervert a miraculous nuclear fusion device into a devastating atom bomb that will decimate the city.

Nestor Carbonnel returns as Gotham’s mayor, Anthony Garcia, and although he doesn’t have much in the way of a compelling character arc, he nevertheless serves as a vital embodiment of civilized law & order– everything that Gotham has to lose when Bane takes the field.

Two major characters from BATMAN BEGINS also make fleeting appearances in THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, helping to tie Nolan’s trilogy together into a unified whole.

Cillian Murphy returns as Dr Jonathan Crane — better known as The Scarecrow– and while he doesn’t don his signature mask here, he does find a suitable role for himself in Bane’s new world order as the merciless judge of a kangaroo court, gleefully sentencing his enemies to an icy grave.

Ra’s Al Ghul also appears in two iterations: one being Liam Neeson in a brief cameo as Bruce’s hallucination in the pit, and the other being Josh Pence as the younger Ra’s in a revelatory flashback sequence.

Finally, a handful of faces unfamiliar to Nolan’s Batman series portray notable new characters.  Matthew Modine, best known for his leading role in Stanley Kubrick’s FULL METAL JACKET, plays Foley– a petty, vindictive police officer positioned to take the reins from Gordon.  He manages to just barely fit in a compelling arc within THE DARK KNIGHT RISES’ sprawling narrative, ultimately finding the courage and conviction within himself to join the fray against Bane’s forces of destruction.

Australian character actor Ben Mendelsohn plays Daggett, a smug billionaire and a petulant business rival who thinks he can use Bane for a hostile takeover of Wayne Enterprises, only to find that Bane serves no one unless it also serves himself.  Finally, Juno Temple plays Jen, a low-level thief and Selina’s partner in crime.

From a thematic standpoint, THE DARK KNIGHT RISES must contend with the un-enviably tricky balancing act of fashioning a narrative that resonates with distinct, clear-cut themes within the confines of its running time, while also paying off the themes set up in the previous two installments.

BATMAN BEGINS dealt with the concept of fear, while THE DARK KNIGHT focused on the idea of chaos.  THE DARK KNIGHT RISES’ primary theme is pain– embodied not just in Bane’s brutal methods, but also in Bruce’s quest to overcome his own pain and complete his life’s work as Batman.

Up until this point, Bruce’s pain had been mostly internal– anguishing over the deaths of his parents and Rachel Dawes.  Throughout the trilogy, Nolan has taken great care to show the physical toll that the life of a vigilante takes on Bruce’s body.  Indeed, the success of Nolan’s entire take on the Batman universe rests on the fact that Batman is not a superhero; that he’s flesh and blood like the rest of us.

THE DARK KNIGHT shows bruises and scars pockmarking his body, while THE DARK KNIGHT RISES establishes that Bruce’s knee has basically been destroyed, necessitating the use of a cane.  Bane simply finishes the job, breaking Batman’s back and throwing him down into a pit halfway across the world.  Pain defines the limits of Bruce’s physicality, with each successive installment in the trilogy finding those limits constricting ever-tighter.  In order to meet the extraordinary challenge of Bane, Bruce must fight through his pain and rise above his physical limits.

In this light, ascension also becomes a defining theme of the story– Bruce’s internal quest is externalized by his attempts to climb out of a pit that had only been previously conquered by Bane himself.

An ascent naturally implies a lower starting point, and Bane’s own rise to power begins in Gotham’s labyrinthine sewer system– the perfect vantage point from which to observe the deep social divisions that roil beneath the fabric of the city.  Even with a team of crack mercenaries at his disposal, Bane knows he doesn’t have the manpower to mount a successful siege against the whole of Gotham.

Instead, he turns the population into his unwitting agents by inciting class conflict between the have and the have nots.  He encourages the Gotham rabble to lay siege to the penthouses of the wealthy elite, as righteous punishment for their greed and gluttony.  He also advocates open anarchy, prompting the citizens to liberate criminals unjustly imprisoned by sweeping legislation passed in the wake of Harvey Dent’s death.
Indeed, he does away with conventional justice systems entirely, instituting kangaroo courts that make a mockery of due process in a bid to quickly condemn his enemies to death.

THE DARK KNIGHT RISES paints a vivid– and perhaps extreme– picture of what modern life might look like following the violent overthrow of society;  a picture that resonated far more than Nolan could have enter anticipated, considering the film’s release during the height of the Occupy Wall Street movement.

In provoking the simmering resentment between the various economic classes of society, Bane is able to expose the fragility of the institutions that keep us from the brink of madness.  THE DARK KNIGHT was released a few months prior to the bottom falling out of the economy at the start of the Great Recession, which sparked a widespread conflagration pitting the poor, working and middle-class population against the wealthy elite class.

In drawing inspiration from this conflict, THE DARK KNIGHT RISES becomes something of a cathartic experience for those hit hardest by the recession.  Nolan allows audiences to revel in sequences like Bane’s stock exchange heist and images of wealthy Gothamites being forcibly pulled from their penthouses and thrown out onto the street.

This plot point also makes for compelling character development on the part of billionaire Bruce Wayne, whose ability to maintain his superheroic exploits has always rested in his immense wealth.

THE DARK KNIGHT RISES finds Bruce stripped of that wealth, forced to save Gotham with whatever meager resources  remain at his disposal– only at this point is Bruce able to ascend to the realm of the “superhero”,  transcending the limits of his mortal physicality and securing the legacy of Batman as an incorruptible and enduring symbol.

As the conclusive chapter of the trilogy, THE DARK KNIGHT RISES also uses its thematic foundation to connect directly with BATMAN BEGINS.

The first film painted Gotham as a dark, filthy, and crime-ridden city where the police force was universally corrupt– an environment primed for a solitary vigilante intent on taking justice into his own hands.  THE DARK KNIGHT RISES comes full circle, with Batman’s efforts having inspired the police to clean up their city and act out en masse against the tyranny of evil.

It’s noteworthy that Batman — a character often depicted as operating only at night and in the shadows — faces Bane for a final standoff in the bright light of day.  The various forces that have been swirling around Gotham all these years are finally out in the open, fighting with the crystal clarity of conviction and purpose.

Batman finally fights side by side with his comrades in blue, united in their effort to pull Gotham back from the brink.  Nolan had taken great care with his previous Batman films to flesh out the urban tapestry of Gotham via its various infrastructural systems– the villains of BATMAN BEGINS repurposed water and transportation systems towards their own ends, and Batman harnessed the power of communications systems in his fight against The Joker in THE DARK KNIGHT.

When combined with Bane’s utilization of underground sewer systems as a hidden staging ground and his perversion of a fusion-based energy system into an atomic bomb, we as an audience stand to know exactly what Batman and the citizens of Gotham are fighting for.

THE DARK KNIGHT RISES furthers Nolan’s exploration of IMAX in the narrative realm, shooting in the format as much as possible.

Emboldened by the substantial punch it gave THE DARK KNIGHT, Nolan and returning cinematographer Wally Pfister employ IMAX frequently– essentially, any shot that doesn’t require dialogue due to the operating noise of the camera itself.

That being said, the filmmakers are well aware of the format’s visceral impact and are careful not to dilute it, carefully staging full action sequences and select shots in order to play to IMAX’s strength as an immersive experience. As it did on THE DARK KNIGHT, this makes for a viewing experience that frequently switches between the full IMAX frame and the standard 2.35:1 35mm film frame– many times from shot to shot.

THE DARK KNIGHT RISES would be, at least as of 2017, the last collaboration between Nolan and his longtime cinematographer, with Pfister graduating to the director’s chair himself in 2014 with his debut, TRANSCENDENCE.

This final collaboration finds Nolan and Pfister building upon the aesthetic they developed for THE DARK KNIGHT, adopting a neutral, desaturated color palette dominated by steel and stone tones.

With the trilogy now complete, it becomes evident that the filmmakers have fashioned a transitory lighting scheme that gradually moves from the darkness of BATMAN BEGINS to the snow-capped brightness of day in THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, echoing Batman’s deliverance of Gotham from moral decay to virtuous law & order.

So too has Nolan’s scope expanded appropriately, ballooning to stakes that are nothing less than apocalyptic as Bane mounts his revolutionary siege on an entire city.

Nolan’s camerawork ably conveys the sweeping scale of his narrative, employing a mix of classical dolly and crane moves with handheld maneuvers and majestic aerials to capture stunning images like the movement of huge crowds doing battle in the streets, or a series of coordinated explosions detonating across the city.

As we’ve come to expect by now, Nolan captures most of these astonishing visuals in-camera via practical effects, supplementing with CGI only when absolutely necessary.  The plane hijacking sequence that opens the film serves as a prime example, with Nolan and company painstakingly staging an high-altitude heist over the Scottish countryside.

Visually speaking, THE DARK KNIGHT RISES represents the aesthetic apex of Nolan’s particular style– since his lo-fi debut with 1998’s FOLLOWING, he has steadily built upon his visual skill set and developed his ability to realize epic spectacle while managing the intimidating logistics that such efforts entail.

While critics may argue over the logical integrity of an admittedly overstuffed narrative, the excellence of Nolan’s technical craftsmanship is never in question. Returning production designer Nathan Crowley marks his seventh consecutive collaboration with Nolan by partnering with Kevin Kavanaugh.

The art department maintains aesthetic continuity with the previous two entries while subtly building upon them, giving a slight update to THE DARK KNIGHT’s iteration of Wayne Tower and the corporation’s cavernous R&D department.

Crowley and Kavanaugh update other iconic aspects of Batman lore like Wayne Manor and The Batcave, giving each a fresh appearance that feels nonetheless similar to how they looked in BATMAN BEGINS.  For instance, Wayne Manor retains its familiar Gilded Age architectural flourishes while expanding upon the mausoleum concept from BATMAN BEGINS.

In the first film, the idea of Wayne Manor being in a constant state of mourning was communicated chiefly by the white sheets draped over the furniture.  With THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, the lack of color has seeped into the walls themselves, as if happiness and passion have left Wayne Manor entirely.

Indeed, the appearance of Wayne Manor is a manifestation of Bruce’s initial interior state, which is one of aimless despair and endless sorrow.  The Batcave has been upgraded to include a computer platform that rises up from its hiding spot underneath a natural pool of water.

No doubt installed shortly after the events of THE DARK KNIGHT, it’s evident that this equipment hasn’t been used in several years.  Crowley and Kavanaugh’s fresh-but-familiar approach extends to Batman’s fleet of vehicles, which now includes a revisionist take on the classic Batplane that transmogrifies its usual sleek silhouette into that a steroid-addled bat crossed with a military helicopter.

Ever true to form, Nolan chiefly uses CGI to augment what is predominantly a practical effect– production footage reveals the Batpod to be a full-size anchored atop a truck that would later be digitally scrubbed from the shot.  The filmmakers had even built an animatronic Batman to sit in the cockpit, giving their illusion that much more of a tactile believability.

The Batpod from THE DARK KNIGHT makes an encore appearance, becoming Batman’s vehicle of choice after the Tumblr was destroyed in the previous installment.  Indeed, THE DARK KNIGHT RISES is the first Batman film in which his signature Batmobile is absent entirely, save for the desert camo R&D models owned by Wayne Enterprises and later stolen by Bane’s mercenaries.

The appearance of Gotham City also evolves, with Nolan’s vision of the fictional city changing rather radically from the one that drove its design in the previous two films.

The influence of Chicago, so deeply felt in the bones of BATMAN BEGINS and THE DARK KNIGHT, here gives way to the iconic spires of New York City.  Since the conclusion of BATMAN BEGINS, Nolan has been steadily chipping away at the layers of stylistic artifice he’d initially imposed on Gotham.

THE DARK KNIGHT  RISES envisions an entirely new Gotham– one that drapes a thin veil of fiction over famous Manhattan landmarks like Wall Street, the Brooklyn Bridge, and 1 World Trade Center (then still under construction).

This particular rendition of Gotham also incorporates sections of other cities like Los Angeles and Pittsburgh, which editor Lee Smith seamlessly cuts together to form one cohesive urban environment.  In addition to other key sequences, the concrete arteries of LA’s downtown host the concluding beat of Bane’s Wall Street heist– which, thanks to the magic of editing, began 3000 miles away in New York.  Here, LA’s multi-level network of highways provides Batman a convenient escape route when he’s cornered by an armada of police cruisers.

The urban interior of Pittsburgh is the stage for the film’s climactic battle, while Heinz Field doubles as the home stadium for the Gotham Rogues football team before it becomes the unwitting site for Bane’s explosive debut.

When blessed with a virtually-bottomless production budget, one might wonder why Nolan and company saw fit to disguise their locales as the fictional city of Gotham by simply spraying a little fake snow on the streets and calling it a day.

However, those who might feel disappointed or even cheated by their perceived lack of imagination fail to realize that this was Nolan’s endgame all along.  As far back as his initial pitch to Warner Brothers executives, Nolan’s take on Batman was always built upon the notion of the character existing in reality.

Rather than build an elaborate, fantastical world to draw the audience into, he means to draw Batman into our world.  THE DARK KNIGHT RISES achieves this aim once and for all, juxtaposing the Caped Crusader against a landscape we can very much recognize as our own.

In regards to the film’s score, one could be forgiven for expecting the composing team of Hans Zimmer and James Newton Howard to finish what they started with BATMAN BEGINS.  However, after Nolan paired with Zimmer exclusively on INCEPTION, Howard reportedly felt he would be a third wheel, and decided to bow out.

While this act arguably streamlines the score’s creative process, Howard’s absence is palpable– gone are the romantic swells of strings that find Batman or Bruce in a quiet moment of introspection, depriving the score of a crucial emotional resonance.

This isn’t to say Zimmer fails to deliver of his own accord, however– the dynamic of the score simply shifts to favor the militaristic and intense nature of his prior contributions.

He appropriately builds on the themes established in the previous entries, developing them towards their logical conclusions.  Naturally, new characters mean new themes, and Zimmer once again manages to embody the characters of Bane and Selina Kyle in musical form.

Expectedly muscular and percussive, Bane’s theme immediately communicates an overwhelming sense of strength and power, his background in the League of Shadows and his apocalyptic ambitions conveyed through a hypnotic male chorus chanting the Moroccan word for “rise”.

Selina Kyle gets a slinky, playful theme that echoes her comic book heritage as Catwoman, employing light flutters on a piano bolstered by quietly urgent strings.  While not as well-rounded as the scores for BATMAN BEGINS or THE DARK KNIGHT, Zimmer’s efforts here nevertheless close out Nolan’s trilogy on an epic, triumphant note.

Nolan’s artistic signatures as a filmmaker are on full display throughout THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, from its massive scope to its jet-setting narrative that takes his crew to far-flung locales like Morocco or Scotland.

His take on Bruce Wayne and Batman has always been informed by his penchant for extremely-flawed male protagonists.  The character’s development as seen in THE DARK KNIGHT RISES continues the trajectory Nolan established with BATMAN BEGINS, all the while uncovering new angles of his psyche.

We first find Bruce so disheartened by the loss of Rachel Dawes and Harvey Dent that he’s exiled himself and Batman away from the world for almost a decade.  He’s lost heart in the myth that he spent so much time, energy, and money building up.

When he decides to once again put on the cape and cowl, his regaining of his life’s purpose ironically makes him too proud.

His conviction about the righteousness of his mission has been warped to such a degree that he drives Alfred, his closest ally and friend, away from him entirely.  This also leads to his merciless beating at the hands of Bane, having failed to do his homework on his opponent beforehand.

Bruce’s story in THE DARK KNIGHT RISES is one of re-earning the mantle of Batman, of gaining a renewed conviction for justice that will enable him to finally fulfill his lifelong quest.

The conceit of functional style that runs through Nolan’s filmography maintains its presence here through Batman’s iconic suit, in addition to other aspects like Bane’s militaristic garb and mask, Selina Kyle’s jet-black burglar outfit, and even a wearable device that allows Bruce to regain the power lost to destroyed cartilage in his knee.

The plot affords Nolan ample opportunity to explore his fascination with architecture and the malleability of the urban environment, with Bane exploiting the inherent vulnerabilities of Gotham’s civic infrastructure.

The underground sewer system allows him to move throughout the city undetected while staging his massive operation.  This position allows him to penetrate fortified structures like Wayne Enterprises’  R&D department by tunneling up from below.

The strategic placement of explosives on bridges and other key points throughout the city allow him to effectively shut down Gotham in one fell swoop, cutting it off from the outside world and effectively creating his very own kingdom to rule as he sees fit.

THE DARK KNIGHT RISES isn’t as concerned with the manipulation of time as his previous work, opting for a linear narrative that progresses steadily forward– save for a massive time jump in the middle that sees several months pass under Bane’s occupation.

More so than he did in THE DARK KNIGHT before it, Nolan structures his climax around a literal ticking clock: that time-honored movie trope of a bomb counting down to detonation. Considering the inspired turns of story that drove Nolan’s previous two Batman entries, it isn’t difficult to see why some critics felt let down by his use of an admittedly-cliche narrative device.

That being said, the ticking clock nonetheless provides a propulsive framework for Nolan to employ his signature cross-cutting techniques, nimbly tracking multiple threads of action and character as they race to save or destroy Gotham.

A purist attitude towards the supremacy of celluloid film over digital acquisition has always been a crucial aspect of Nolan’s artistic character, but his reputation for active advocacy really begins here, with THE DARK KNIGHT RISES.

Thanks to the monumental success of films like THE DARK KNIGHT and INCEPTION, he had enough industry clout to gather a number of high-profile directors like himself for a private IMAX screening of the film’s plane hijacking prologue shortly before this film’s release.

With some of Hollywood’s most-celebrated luminaries as his captive audience, he proceeded to make his case about the importance of keeping celluloid alive as a vital option for filmmakers to employ.  In this bold new digital age, film has taken on an inherently nostalgic quality– one that’s easy to romanticize, or take for granted.

Nolan used his platform to underscore the dangers that digital poses towards the continuance of celluloid, the least of which being its appeal to the studio’s bottom line.

Digital may now have the capability to match (and even surpass) the resolution of film pixel-for-pixel, he argued, but there’s a lot that digital couldn’t replicate and that they thus stood to lose– qualities like a wide latitude, an organic texture, and its strength as a long-term archival format immune to the ravages of memory rot and data corruption.

In the wake of major manufacturers like Fuji closing their doors and leaving Kodak as the only game in town, they faced the imminent risk of losing the choice to shoot on film altogether.  Thankfully, his pleas didn’t fall on deaf ears; his colleagues and contemporaries agreed that the preservation of celluloid as an acquisition option was of urgent artistic and cultural importance.

This alliance proved instantly formidable, with their efforts leading to several studios agreeing to a processing partnership with Kodak that would guarantee film’s immediate survival.  Of all of Nolan’s contributions to the art of cinema, his active advocacy to preserve the availability and the magic of photochemical film for future generations stands to become one of his most important and enduring.

Thanks to the bar set by THE DARK KNIGHT and the passing of four years when most sequels aim for two, expectations were understandably sky-high for Nolan’s trilogy capper.  It was, simply put, the most anticipated film of 2012.

It’s box office dominance was a foregone conclusion, with the marketing campaign aptly positioning the film as a major cultural event that was not to be missed.  The moviegoing public responded in kind, the most dedicated of whom turned out en masse across the country for midnight screenings on release day: July 20, 2012.

The overwhelming excitement of the film’s release was immediately tempered by tragedy, however, when a young man named James Holmes dressed up, in his words, as The Joker and opened fire on an audience at a midnight screening in Aurora, Colorado.

Twelve people lost their lives, with fifty-eight more injured.  Nolan and his collaborators immediately issued statements about the massacre, expressing their profound heartbreak.  This unfortunate brush with history no doubt must have deeply affected Nolan– to him, the movie theater was a sacred space, akin to a cathedral.  It was a forum where people could gather and share a communal dream-like experience, and once that bubble had been popped, it was like innocence lost– there was no going back.

Whatever the purpose might have been, Holmes’ barbaric act couldn’t keep audiences away– perhaps inspiring some to go to the theater as an act of righteous defiance against fear and terrorism.

This defiance, coupled with the overwhelming popularity of the Batman property, quickly propelled THE DARK KNIGHT RISES past the billion dollar mark to become the 19th highest-grossing film of all time.  Critics admired the film for the most part, lavishing praise on Nolan’s technical craftsmanship and command of vision while conceding that the narrative was overlong and rather unwieldy.

Individual criticisms aside, critics and audiences alike mostly agreed that Nolan had closed out his trilogy in satisfying fashion. Nobody, however, could deny the impressiveness of his achievement: not only had he shepherded one of the most successful and well-regarded trilogies of all time, he had capably (and seemingly effortlessly) executed THE DARK KNIGHT RISES on the largest and most challenging scale of mainstream studio filmmaking.

In completing THE DARK KNIGHT TRILOGY, Nolan had formed the bedrock of his cinematic legacy, and a solid platform upon which to build his towering works to come.


INTERSTELLAR (2014)

Mankind is a race of explorers– from the governmental level on down to the individual family unit, we’re constantly pursuing the expansion of our domain into uncharted territory.

The fundamental desire that drove us across entire continents and oceans has also given birth to the tribal mind-set of nation-states, drawing up arbitrary borders in a bid to separate ourselves and our natural blessings from the nebulous “other”.  It wasn’t until the dawn of space flight in the mid-twentieth century that mankind was able to ascend high enough to observe the entire planet within their field of view.

Up there, they realized that there were no borders, no nations, no distinct divisions of heritages and cultures— there was only, to paraphrase Carl Sagan, a single blue marble suspended in a black void.  The planet Earth is a lifeboat in the middle of a vast, turbulent ocean… completely at the mercy to the fickle whims of the fates.

It is hard for those of us stuck here on terra firma to grasp just how precarious our cosmic existence is.  Thanks to our relatively short lifespans, we are cursed with abysmal foresight– we don’t worry about tomorrow because there’s already too much to deal with today.  But what if there was no tomorrow?

What if the mounting effects of industrialization and civic “progress” had turned our fragile blue marble into a dusty wasteland of blight, drought, and decay?  What if we had to find out the hard way that, unlike our fancy electronic gadgets, there was no cloud backup for humanity?

“Mankind was born on Earth.  It was never meant to die here”.  This phrase, while admittedly devised as an unusually-eloquent bit of marketing tagline copy, is the fundamental sentiment that drives Nolan’s ninth feature film, INTERSTELLAR.  The film dares to show The Last Frontier as it really is: an experience beyond the limits of our wildest imaginations.

While INTERSTELLAR’s heritage harkens back to the tactile innovations of Stanley Kubrick’s 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY (1968), its actual development history began much more recently, when theoretical physicist Kip Thorne and producer Lynda Obst hatched the initial seed of the story and set it up for further development at Paramount.  In 2006, the studio hired Jonathan Nolan to write the script as a directing vehicle for Steven Spielberg.

Six years later, Spielberg had departed the project for greener pastures and Christopher was in search of his next film after wrapping up his DARK KNIGHT TRILOGY.  He was intimately familiar with Jonathan’s aspirations for and frustrations with INTERSTELLAR by virtue of his familial relation, but over time he found that he too had become interested in the project from a directorial standpoint.  When he learned the director’s chair was open, he simply placed a call to Paramount and offered his services.

Having made all his previous studio features at Warner Brothers, Nolan had forged warm relationships with the top executives there.  Unwilling to miss out on the next project from one of their most valuable talents, Warner Brothers took the unorthodox step of co-financing INTERSTELLAR with Paramount.

As such, two of the largest studios in Hollywood threw their combined weight behind Nolan to the tune of $175 million dollars– an astronomical sum considering that Nolan also enjoyed a $20 million salary, a 20% profit share of the film’s gross and carte blanche control over the execution of his vision.

That kind of creative freedom– nearly unheard of at this budgetary level– was a testament to the faith that studio executives had in the significant commercial appeal of Nolan’s aesthetic. The fact that Christopher Nolan ultimately brought the picture in $10 million under budget is, conversely, a testament to Nolan’s disciplined work ethic and goodwill towards his financiers.

INTERSTELLAR finds Nolan working with the largest canvas he’s ever had, which is pretty damn big considering the overwhelming scale of THE DARK KNIGHT RISES.  Funnily enough, Nolan’s first foray into science fiction succeeds almost in spite of its limitless scope, finding its profound emotional resonance in the simple, intimate theatrics of human connection.

Drawing from iconic sci-fi works like the aforementioned 2001, METROPOLIS, BLADE RUNNER, STAR WARS, and CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND as well as offbeat sources like Ken Burns’ documentaries on the Dust Bowl, Nolan infuses INTERSTELLAR with a Spielbergian wonder towards the mysteries of the cosmos.

Indeed, Nolan strives to evoke the artistic sensibilities of Spielberg by structuring INTERSTELLAR as an ode to spaceflight, a paean to the romanticism of adventure, and a portrait of the special and complex bond shared between a father and his children.  If THE DARK KNIGHT RISES heralded the end of the world with a bang, then INTERSTELLAR sees it arrive with a whimper.

The world, simply put, must be saved– but this time, the responsibility falls not to superheroes but to scientists and mathematicians.  We begin in the back half of the twenty-first century, where the mounting effects of  pollution, industrialization, and other byproducts of modern civilization have ravaged the earth.

Crops are failing, water is growing scarce, society is stagnating. A desperate and hungry world has discouraged frivolous pursuits like space exploration in favor of raising more farmers to till the increasingly-infertile fields.

Short-sighted bureaucrats have even gone so far as to formally disband NASA and publish textbooks that assert the moon landing was faked in order to bankrupt the Soviet Union and win the Cold War.  There’s a pervading sense that our future is decidedly earthbound.

In America’s blight-plagued heartland, where a new Dust Bowl rages with increasing intensity, an ex-pilot turned corn farmer named Cooper is trying to eke out a hardscrabble existence with his two children and father-in-law.

When Cooper examines the curious phenomena of patterned dust in his daughter’s bedroom, he manages to decode it as geographical coordinates.  Cooper and his daughter, Murph, follow the coordinates to a secret underground bunker, only to discover a secret refuge for the remnants of NASA– an underground facility in which to build the next generation of starships and ferry mankind off the dying planet.  The mission has been spurned on by the discovery of a wormhole near Saturn, placed there by an unknown intelligence.

Almost overnight, an entirely new galaxy has been placed within their reach– complete with three potentially habitable planets orbiting a supermassive black hole named Gargantua.

One of the few pilots qualified to lead a mission of this importance, Cooper is duty-bound to leave his family behind and command an interstellar reconnaissance mission to find a new home for the human race– before we lose the only one we’ve ever known.

The consistent pedigree of Nolan’s work naturally attracts (and retains) high-caliber talent, and INTERSTELLAR serves as yet another prime example.  It’s tempting to assume that the casting of Matthew McConaughey as Cooper was a reactive action on Nolan’s part– jumping on the “McConnaissance” bandwagon and securing the talents of a performer operating at the peak of his prestige.

If the study of Nolan’s filmography yields only one insight, however, it’s that any artistic choice he makes is never a reaction to current trends in filmmaking or Hollywood at large.  Indeed, he’d been aware of McConaughey’s flinty, blue-collar physicality for quite some time– over the years he’s proved himself to be one of the few actors capably of truly embodying the “everyman” persona Nolan felt was so crucial to the proper conveyance of his protagonist.

McConaughey succeeds Guy Pearce, Al Pacino, Christian Bale and Leonardo DiCaprio as the latest in a long line of tortured and haunted male heroes within Nolan’s work.  Cooper’s story so far has been one of quiet tragedy; he’s a former pilot who had to give up dreams of spaceflight for an unglamorous life growing a failing crop and raising a family doomed to do the same.

Like MEMENTO’S Guy Pearce, INCEPTION’s DiCaprio, and, to a certain extent, Christian Bale’s Bruce Wayne, Cooper is a widower; cursed to wander the rest of his life without his mate.  Also like those characters, he’s whip-smart and resourceful; a natural-born leader with bottomless reserves of courage and a ferocious commitment to his family.

The loss of his wife in and of itself does not make Cooper a tortured protagonist in the typical Nolan mold, however– it’s the fact that he must leave his beloved family behind if he’s to save them, along with the very real possibility that he may never see them again.
As Cooper’s absence stretches from months, to years, to decades, his children grow into disillusioned, bitter adults.

They’re angry at the father who abandoned them, the most vindictive sibling being Murph– ripped from her father’s warmth and guidance at a fragile young age.  Jessica Chastain continues her winning streak of strong performances for prestigious directors here as the adult Murph, a brilliant and driven scientist working for NASA.

Her insightful ability to see patterns where others do not allows her to successfully receive messages sent by the universe and employ them towards the salvation of the human race, all while communicating with her long-lost father in a way that transcends both space and time.

Casey Affleck is even more humorless and bitter as Cooper’s grown son, Tom.  In his father’s absence, the work of maintaining the family farm has fallen to him, and the hard, fruitless work and tragic death of his firstborn son has left him an angry and hollow shell of the optimistic and eager boy he once was.

Well known for his gangly, boyish physicality, Affleck instead conveys an imposing corn-fed frame and a pragmatic coldness that puts him at odds with Murph’s good intentions.
Ever since THE PRESTIGE brought back several members of the cast from BATMAN BEGINS, Nolan has made a habit of retaining key actors for multiple successive collaborations.  Michael Caine is easily the most visible example of this aspect of Nolan’s career, having appeared in all of the director’s films since 2005.

In INTERSTELLAR, Caine plays Cooper’s mentor Professor Brand, the weary NASA scientist in charge of the Endurance mission.  The character is a variation on the archetype he typically plays in Nolan’s work– that of the sagely mentor and charming bearer of exposition– but where the Professor Brand character diverges the most from prior performances is in his intentional misleading of Cooper and his crew about the ultimate impossibility of their primary mission objective.

Anne Hathaway, hot off her first collaboration with Nolan in THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, plays Professor Brand’s daughter, also named Brand. As a character who finds herself caught at the intersection of faith and reason, Hathaway capably conveys her character’s vulnerable intelligence and idealistic confidence.

More than just a potential love interest for Cooper, Brand is a conduit through which Nolan presents one of INTERSTELLAR’s key ideas– the idea of “love” as a powerful, quantifiable cosmic concept.  In other words: the idea of “love” being a separate dimension unto itself that can transcend and influence time, space, and gravity.

The rest of INTERSTELLAR’s supporting players are comprised of faces well-known, obscure, and surprising.  Shielded from all marketing materials prior to the release of the film, Matt Damon unexpectedly turns up halfway through the film in a major role as Mann, a team member from a previous reconnaissance mission who is discovered on a desolate, icy planet ensconced in his hypersleep pod.

Upon waking, Mann is initially grateful and overwhelmed that someone came to find him, but as the realization dawns that his planet is ultimately not suitable for Earth’s new home, he reveals the ruthless and cowardly survivalist side of his nature.  His name is no doubt a nod on Nolan’s part to director Michael Mann, a filmmaker who has served as a profound influence on Nolan’s particular aesthetic.

Following the casting of Joseph Gordon-Levitt in INCEPTION and THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, Nolan’s casting of Topher Grace and John Lithgow here evidences what could seen as a curious fascination with 90’s sitcom stars, with Grace making his way from THAT 70’s SHOW and Lithgow well-known from his stint on THIRD ROCK FROM THE SUN (which also starred Gordon-Levitt).

Grace plays Getty, adult-Murph’s NASA colleague, while Lithgow eases into a grizzled seniority to play Donald, Cooper’s father-in-law and grandfather to Murph and Tom.  One of the more interesting aspects of Lithgow’s character is his age in relation to the timeline of Nolan’s story, which would place him as a member of the contemporary Millennial generation.

Veteran character actress Ellen Burstyn is a poignant presence as the elderly Murph, having eclipsed her own father in age thanks to the relativistic aspects of time and space travel.  Wes Bentley and David Gyasi play Doyle and Romilly, respectively– two fellow astronauts on the Endurance mission who help explain the film’s brain-twisting concepts about relativity to the audience.

Bill Irwin makes the best of a thankless task by providing the voice and puppetry for TARS, a non-humanoid, artificially-intelligent robot that accompanies the Endurance crew.  Despite having his presence painted out of the frame entirely, Irwin ably injects a genuine sense of lively humanity into TARS, resulting in a memorable silver screen robot in the mold of HAL-9000 and C-3PO.

Nine features into his career, Nolan has solidified a core group of trusted craftspeople in service to his vision: producer/wife Emma Thomas, production designer Nathan Crowley, composer Hans Zimmer, and editor Lee Smith.  However, INTERSTELLAR forces Nolan to make a radical change in a key department.

Wally Pfister, who had shot all of Nolan’s films since MEMENTO, was unavailable to shoot INCEPTION because of the production of his own directorial debut, TRANSCENDENCE.  Understandably, Pfister leaves big shoes to fill, but Dutch-Swedish cinematographer Hoyte Van Hoytema proves a more-than-capable replacement, reinvigorating Nolan’s outsized aesthetic by virtue of his fresh perspective.

He ably replicates the muted earth and metal color palette of Nolan’s previous films while infusing INTERSTELLAR with a gritty, documentary-style immediacy uncommon to most sci-fi films.  He achieves this by shooting a majority of the film handheld, which results in naturalistic compositions that evoke an organic, lyrical nature not unlike the late-career aesthetic of Terrence Malick.

Hoytema employs other tools like blown highlights and Spielbergian and Abrams-esque lens flares that fan out into concentrated horizontal bands of light– a visual artifact unique to anamorphic lenses.

From the cinematography on down to the final sound mix, Nolan intended for INTERSTELLAR to be his most technically ambitious work to date.  The lion’s share of his attention is lavished on the visuals, building on his innovative use of large-format film gauges in a narrative setting.

If its staggering runtime of 2 hours and 49 minutes wasn’t enough, Nolan projects the unprecedented scale of INTERSTELLAR’s narrative by shooting his largest ratio of IMAX to 35mm film yet.  The supersized IMAX format betters conveys the infinite depths of space, restoring a sense of grandeur and wonder to a genre that’s otherwise been lost in recent years to an orgy of flimsy CGI-fests.

Indeed, when Nolan juxtaposes the microscopic insignificance of human spacecraft against the massive backdrop of Saturn, it’s hard to imagine any other format that can better communicate the awe-inspiring scale of the heavens.

With each successive film, Nolan further innovates and strengthens IMAX’s capabilities for narrative storytelling, and INTERSTELLAR provides him with the opportunity to use it in conventional dialogue scenes or handheld in cramped quarters in addition to grandiose moments of spectacle.

The use of IMAX also highlights Nolan’s preference for celluloid, allowing him to better demonstrate film’s strengths while combating the ballooning resolution of digital formats fast approaching their ten-thousandth pixel.

In a way, Nolan achieves a poetic sublimity in his use of IMAX on INTERSTELLAR– one of his primary motivators for using the format in the first place was his reasoning that if an IMAX camera can be lugged into space, it can be used to shoot a narrative feature film.  With INTERSTELLAR, this reasoning comes full circle, finding Nolan employing the format in service to the depiction of space.
One of the core operating principles of Nolan’s approach to INTERSTELLAR was that anything that could be captured in-camera would be captured in-camera.  Granted, Nolan typically avoids CGI wherever he can, but the particular challenges of making INTERSTELLAR presented special consideration.  As he had done for select scenes in INCEPTION, Nolan once again looked to the model of Stanley Kubrick’s 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY, a science fiction masterpiece whose groundbreaking practical effects are still convincing after half a century.

While one could certainly make the case that Kubrick would have preferred the control and precision afforded by digital techniques had they been available to him, 2001’s practical, in-camera effects are nevertheless a major component of its longevity.

Following Kubrick’s lead, Nolan mandated that INTERSTELLAR would resort to computer-generated imagery only when necessary.  As such, a grand majority of the film’s spaceships, costumes, sets, and non-human characters are physical builds or miniatures.

INTERSTELLAR’s two robot characters, TARS and CASE, were achieved through a mix of computer graphics and physical puppetry, with actor Bill Irwin giving life to the bulky slab of inanimate metal via an elaborate counterbalance system.

Rather than juxtapose green-screened astronauts against a computer-generated alien landscape, Christopher Nolan simply flew the production to the real-life alien landscape of Iceland, which stood in for the film’s water and ice planets.

This approach also extended to sequences set on Cooper’s farm back on Earth, where he had his team actually build a functional full-scale house and plant fields of corn out in the Canadian province of Alberta.

The spaceship sets, built on a soundstage in LA by returning production designer Nathan Crowley, were designed to be as realistically functional as possible in a bid to emulate the harshly utilitarian conditions of space travel.

This meant foregoing the luxury of breakaway walls while projecting high resolution images of space onto a giant cyc, enabling the cast to look out the windows of the Endurance and actually feel like they were in space.

Even the four-dimensional tesseract sequence– one of the most abstract concepts ever presented in a mainstream Hollywood film– was, surprisingly, built as a practical set.  This isn’t to say that INTERSTELLAR doesn’t contain its fair share of computer-generated imagery, but rather that Nolan’s conscious decision to capture as much as he could in-camera should be celebrated, and has arguably created a piece of work that will hold up considerably well in the years to come.

INTERSTELLAR further echoes 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY in striving to depict the challenges and logistics of space travel as accurately as possible.  Towards this end, Nolan brings on Kip Thorne not just as an executive producer, but as a key creative partner on the level of a cinematographer or production designer.

Thorne is one of the leading minds in his field, which makes the ideas presented in INTERSTELLAR not only scientifically accurate, but exceedingly cutting-edge.  These ideas aren’t just limited to technical aspects like the conceivably-realistic spaceship interiors or the accurate approach to sound design in the vacuum of space; every development in the story bases itself upon the established laws of physics and relativity, no matter how fantastical or impossible it may seem.

Admittedly, the film does deviate dramatically from hard science when Cooper allows himself to drop into a black hole, but the ultimate impossibility of knowing what lies beyond the event horizon is an appropriate enough excuse for a little dramatic license.

To Nolan and Thorne’s credit, the depiction of the black hole itself is derived as accurately as possible from our current understanding of them– Thorne worked out complicated relativity equations for the computer graphics team so they could accurately recreate the warping and luminescence of Gargantua’s accretion disk.

Even the simulation itself was an immense undertaking, generating over 800 terabytes of information and some frames taking a hundred hours or more to render.  In the process, Thorne and the visual effects team managed to make actual, quantifiable scientific breakthroughs in our understanding of the heavens’ most mysterious phenomenon.

INTERSTELLAR goes to great lengths to explain how black holes entwine the forces of gravity and time, using the relativity of time as a major source of emotional conflict.  Each time the Endurance mission faces a delay or unexpected problem, years or decades go by on Earth– and Cooper’s chance of ever seeing his family again drops precipitously.

Naturally, this is a very heady concept that isn’t easily grasped, necessitating frequent expositional and jargon-laden monologues that lay out the challenge our characters face in no uncertain, unsubtle terms.

Yet, these moments never feel like a chore or a burden to struggle through.  Nolan deals with mind-bending plot devices so frequently that he’s made the delivery of bulky exposition into something of an art form.   

Since their first collaboration on BATMAN BEGINS, composer Hans Zimmer has played an increasingly important part in shaping Nolan’s artistic identity.  After spending several years working as something of a journeyman composer for big-budget action films, Zimmer’s collaborations with Nolan have increasingly steered him towards an avant-garde minimalism.  Nolan has pushed Zimmer to reinvent the wheel with each successive project, and INTERSTELLAR just might be the veteran composer’s most ambitious score to date.

Having grown weary of the conventional director/composer collaborative relationship, Nolan employed an inspired tactic: rather than scoring off of the edited film, Zimmer was given a one page brief before the start of production.

The brief did not outline the story of the film, describe the character, or give any indication of the scale– it didn’t even state that this was a science fiction film.  Instead, the brief described abstract sentiments about family, parenthood, and time that zeroed in on the beating heart of the film’s emotional core.

From this barest of sketches, Zimmer generated a beautifully atmospheric, mysterious, and hopeful suite of music.  Advised by Nolan to stay away from the tried-and-true orchestral string arrangements, Zimmer sourced his sounds from a palette of ticking clocks, melancholy piano chords, and most notably, an urgent church organ.

Indeed, the organ (and the particular acoustic resonance gained by recording it inside an actual cathedral) is the defining characteristic of INTERSTELLAR’s score, perfectly evoking the religiosity of the celestial heavens as well as our tireless search for a higher meaning to our existence.

By not tailoring his score to the expectations of the science fiction genre, Zimmer is able to tap directly into universality of the human experience at the center of the story and deliver one of the finest works of his career.

INTERSTELLAR dovetails quite naturally and cohesively with several of the core thematic fascinations that comprises Nolan’s artistic identity.  Time (and the manipulation thereof) consistently shapes the structure of his films, and INTERSTELLAR posits that time is a spatial dimension unto itself– one that can be stepped outside of and looked in on as it stretches and warps in a relativistic relationship with gravity.

Whereas MEMENTO played with the lateral direction of time, or INCEPTION explored how a single action’s effect could compound along multiple parallel timelines, INTERSTELLAR goes one step further by turning time into a physical dimension, embodied in the four-dimensional tesseract that allows Cooper to interact with his daughter across multiple points of her lifespan.

It’s immediately apparent that Nolan sees great dramatic potential in the relativity of time as it pertains to gravity– one of the film’s most emotionally resonant sequences finds Cooper and Brand marooned on a water planet closely orbiting the gravity-dense black hole.

Because the individual perception of time differs according to the strength of gravity’s pull, they perceive themselves as being on the surface for only a few hours.  When they return to the ship in orbit, however, they learn that twenty-three years have passed on Earth, and Cooper has an inbox with a lifetime’s worth of messages from his kids, who have grown up in his absence and have reached the same age he had been when he left home.

Nolan’s fascination with time is also represented by his usage of montage and cross-cutting in pursuit of a subjective emotional experience and the building of dramatic intensity.

Looking over his series of collaborations with regular editor Lee Smith, it’s not uncommon for Nolan to employ cross-cuts that span great distances of time and space, but INTERSTELLAR’s cross-cuts compress whole decades and unfathomable light-years within the space of a single frame.

One memorable sequence late in the film cuts between Murph diverting her brother’s attention by burning his corn crop, while on an icy world in a separate galaxy, McConaughey battles for his life against Damon’s attacks.  They are separated by untold millions of miles and several dozens of Earth-years, but they are united in their singular, cosmic struggle to save the human race.

Nolan’s films explore and subvert our perception of time in pursuit of a greater, unified statement about the subjectivity (and fragility) of our individual realities–  there is no single objective truth in his films, no matter how hard his characters search for it.

Perhaps that’s why his protagonists are always so tortured or burdened with regret… they’ve devoted the entirety of themselves to the pursuit of something they ultimately can never attain.

Nolan has sometimes been called an “emotional mathematician”, most notably by fellow director Guillermo Del Toro.  Beyond his championing of technical precision and a tendency to manipulate the emotions of his audience through calculated technique instead of raw artistic ingenuity, the phrase also alludes to his use of academic disciplines like geometry and science in his storytelling.

In other words, a large portion of his life’s work has been a celebration of the magic of data.  This is true in INTERSTELLAR more so than any of his previous films, with entire plot points hinging around the conveyance of ideas and messages via morse code, binary coordinates, flight path equations, and even gravity as a form of interdimensional communication.

A considerable amount of screentime is dedicated to Cooper and his crew figuring out how to best conserve their limited fuel supply, which isn’t as boring as it sounds when it means we get to see him pull daredevil spin maneuvers to slow down his lander rather than using fuel-consuming air brakes.  This conceit folds in well with Nolan’s reputation for structuring his plots as puzzles his characters must solve.

INTERSTELLAR’s astronauts must summon all their intellect and resourcefulness in order to solve the biggest puzzle of all: gravity.  Architecture plays a significant role in this regard, most notably in the design of NASA’s cavernous underground bunker.

The space is shaped like a massive centrifuge, and for good reason– once Brand solves the problem of gravity, he plans to physically lift the building into space as a 21st century ark that will ensure humanity’s survival.  Its circular shape will allow the station to spin in orbit, generating artificial gravity for its inhabitants.

The exotic world of space travel allows Nolan to indulge in his continued exploration of functional style.  Great consideration was given to the film’s spacesuit costumes, with Nolan striving for a sleeker silhouette than the cumbersome suits employed by modern astronauts.

As a piece of equipment designed to sustain an astronaut’s life systems in hostile environments, these suits are inherently functional, and Nolan finds the opportunity to enhance their functionality towards the film shoot itself by building microphones directly into his actors’  helmets.

Classic literature has also played an increasingly prominent role in Nolan’s work, stemming from his college years as an English Lit major and most recently evidenced in the inspiration that Charles Dickens’ “A Tale of Two Cities” served in the development of THE DARK KNIGHT RISES.

In INTERSTELLAR, Professor Brand routinely recites Dylan Thomas’ classic poem “Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night” as a propulsive mantra, continually reminding us of the ultimate cost humanity will pay should the mission fail.

Though Nolan is very mechanically-minded in both the thematics and execution of his story, INTERSTELLAR’s ultimate message is surprisingly organic and optimistically abstract: that love is a higher dimension than both space and time; that we all draw from an interconnected, cosmic soul; that our love for each other gives the human race meaning and significance in the face of a cold, endless oblivion.

By the time of INTERSTELLAR’s release in November of 2014, Paramount had completely ceased the distribution of celluloid release prints in favor of an all-digital delivery to theaters.  However, Nolan harnessed his considerable clout and convinced the studio to make an exception for him, even going so far as providing an incentive to see the IMAX, 70mm and conventional 35mm film prints over digital by making them available a full two days before the film’s official release.

INTERSTELLAR scored mostly-positive critical reviews, most of which praised Nolan’s considerable technical showmanship and awe-inspiring ambition even as they found some faults in the overall cohesiveness of his story.

While the film’s box office performance didn’t post BATMAN kinds of numbers, Nolan’s rabid fanbase and INTERSTELLAR’s buzz as “the most anticipated film of 2014” all but guaranteed a healthy haul.

INTERSTELLAR’s legacy as a technical triumph was confirmed at the Academy Awards, where it was nominated for Best Score, Best Sound Mixing, Best Sound Editing, and Best Production Design.

It would go on to win the Oscar for Best Visual Effects– the same category that Kubrick won for his work on 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY.  While INTERSTELLAR may not end up as timeless a classic as Kubrick’s masterpiece, it will nevertheless go down as one of the most audacious and ambitious science fiction epics ever made.


QUAY (2015)

As a noted champion of practical effects and technical craftsmanship, director Christopher Nolan has a vested interest in supporting similarly-minded filmmakers.  As the director of some of the biggest blockbusters in recent memory, Nolan also has the power to shed light on underexposed voices by using the pedigree of his own name to help them find a new audience.

In 2015, Nolan did just for that the Quay brothers, two masters of imaginative puppet animation celebrated for their handcrafted gothic aesthetic that’s less Walt Disney and more David Lynch.

The 8-minute QUAY is Nolan’s first documentary effort, and the first short he’s made since 1997’s DOODLEBUG.  Working with co-producer Andy Thompson, Nolan acts as a one-man crew like he did on his feature debut FOLLOWING (1998), serving as director, producer, cinematographer, and editor as he documents the Quay brothers giving a tour of their cavernous shop and their myriad creations.

Ever true to his purist approach towards celluloid cinema, Nolan shoots QUAY on 35mm film in the 1:85:1 aspect ratio, conforming his high-contrast, desaturated earth-tone aesthetic to a handheld, observational tone.  Nolan is content to simply let the Quay brothers riff on the nature of their work without inserting himself into the conversation or imposing any sort of contrived narrative, ultimately creating an intimate portrait of two artisans and the lo-fi, handmade artistry behind their inimitable body of work.

QUAY screened at the Film Forum in New York before being made available on a boutique Blu Ray release collecting several of the brothers’ iconic shorts.  Nolan’s reverence and appreciation for the Quays is palpable; there’s no question he regards their work as a formative influence on his own approach to filmmaking.

Naturally, the Quays were renowned long before Nolan turned his lens on them and didn’t necessarily need a documentary like QUAY to expose their work to a wide audience, but the film does however reach a different audience– the kind whose diet consists only of mainstream Hollywood spectacles and isn’t particularly inclined to seek out the eccentric deep cuts of indie animation.

In showing us a key influence in his advocacy for practical effects in the face of digital wizardry, Nolan reveals a deeper insight into his own artistic character while suggesting the beginning of a more-intimate and experimental phase in his professional development.

QUAY is available in high definition on the The Quay Brothers Collected Short Films Blu Ray via Zeitgeist Films and Syncopy.


Dunkirk (2016)

Along with the mass devastation and the loss of millions of lives, World War 2 brought about something positive: a recognition of the innate heroism in every person.  It wasn’t just a conflict fought by unseen general and soldiers on some distant field by– it was a harrowing ordeal that quite literally hit home for countless civilians around the world.  The European theater, in particular, saw no shortage of battles play out within the confines of its urban centers; no one could say their personal lives weren’t directly affected by the war.

You can read all of Christopher Nolan’s Screenplays here.

When we hear about stories of courage in combat, we tend to remember these episodes with a veneer of romanticism, and rightly so– World War 2 is often painted as a necessary “good” war, in which the forces of freedom and righteousness waged a battle against the evil and inhumane virtues of fascism for the soul of the twentieth century.  However, the people actually living these episodes of courage — soldiers and civilians alike — most likely didn’t view their experiences through the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia.  Indeed, many of these courageous moments were a result of terrified men and women simply trying to survive.

This sentiment– a complex fusion of bittersweet heroism, desperate self-preservation, and corrosive survivor’s guilt —  drives director Christopher Nolan’s tenth feature film, DUNKIRK (2017).  Structured less as a conventional war film and more like a harrowing survival thriller, DUNKIRK recreates the evacuation of Allied forces from the eponymous coastal town in France as an awe-inspiring story of unfathomable courage and frenzied survival, despite the event itself serving as a tactical loss for the good guys.  This snatching of an emotional victory from the jaws of strategic defeat is precisely the sort of peculiar irony that attracted Nolan to the story when he initially conceived of the project in the mid-’90s, while sailing across the English Channel along the evacuation route with his wife and producing partner, Emma Thomas.

He envisioned an immersive experience that expanded upon the war genre’s rather simplistic emotional dynamics with a wider range of color, thus achieving a different kind of reverence towards Dunkirk’s participants– one that didn’t reduce their memory to cheap, two-dimensional patriotism.  The idea stayed with Nolan through the subsequent decades, even as his career exploded into the stratosphere following the breakout success of films like MEMENTO (2000) and BATMAN BEGINS (2005).  After the completion in 2014 of his sprawling space epic, INTERSTELLAR, Nolan finally felt he had accumulated enough experience and artistic clout to tackle DUNKIRK as his next feature-length project.

Admittedly, this is something of an absurd sentiment on its face– how could the director of gigantic films like THE DARK KNIGHT TRILOGY, INCEPTION, and INTERSTELLAR not feel ready or experienced enough to helm a $100 million film about a real-world event?  One only needs to look at the finished product to see the answer lies not in Nolan’s confidence towards his technical mastery, but rather in the amount of creative goodwill he needed in order to take so experimental a tack with such an expensive effort.

Indeed, DUNKIRK stands as something of a culmination of the many artistic strands that Nolan had been developing and perfecting throughout his career and only now was it possible for him to tie these strands together into a cohesive, singular experience.  Here was a director at the apex of both his technical powers and his cultural relevance, empowered to make whatever he wanted at whatever scale he wanted thanks to a long-standing relationship with Warner Brothers that had reached the rarefied air of total creative trust and financial backing previously reserved for such heavyweights as Stanley Kubrick, Alfred Hitchcock, or even Cecil B. DeMille.

Their partnership had been so fruitful that, at this point, he could have asked for $100 million to direct an adaptation of the phone book and they would’ve cut a check in the room.  Thankfully for the studio —and for audiences —it wasn’t the phone book that Nolan wanted to direct, but rather a harrowing, minimalist story about courage under fire that would showcase the director’s staggering technical prowess while pushing his artistic inclinations in bold, new directions.

In retelling the story of DUNKIRK, Nolan couldn’t escape the fact that the event was technically a retreat— at this point of the war in 1940, Axis forces had taken so much of France that the Allies felt their best course of action was to pull back and regroup for a better defense against the German’s inevitable attack on the British homeland.  In the small coastal town of Dunkirk, close to the Belgian border, this evacuation was met with a relentless assault by well-supplied German forces, intent on decimating their numbers before they could set foot off the European continent.

Having cultivated an effective cross-cutting technique throughout his previous work, Nolan desired to employ it towards the whole of a feature-length narrative, in effect creating one long note of sustained suspense that he described as, in his words: “the story of immediate tension in the present tense”.  Right away, this suggested that the director would have to eschew his tendencies towards increasingly-inflated runtimes and zero in on the most concise, succinct version of the narrative at hand.  Indeed, at an hour and 45 minutes, DUNKIRK is Nolan’s shortest film since his 1998 debut feature, FOLLOWING.

The film is split up into three distinct planes of action: the air, the sea, and the ground (referred to in the film as “the mole”, so named after the dock jutting out from the beach).  Each of these separate strands ducks and weave through each other, only to converge at the end as the battle reaches a fever pitch.

DUNKIRK takes a decentralized approach to its plot, trashing the idea of a singular protagonist in favor of enigmatic figureheads; fictional composites instead of historical accounts.  They have names, to be sure, but we as an audience don’t have the luxury of time to learn them when our very survival is at stake.  I say “our survival” because Nolan intends for these characters to simply serve as windows for the audience to immerse themselves in the harrowing sweep of history as it unfolds.  We never see beyond this limited, subjective perspective— we’re stuck with the Allied forces on the ground, forced to flee with them as chaos and destruction surrounding us.

We rarely even see the attackers, save for the occasional German plane.  In casting DUNKIRK, Nolan mostly ignores his reputation as a director of prestigious, Academy Award-nominated talent in favor of young unknowns like Fionn Whitehead, who anchors the mole sequences as the boyish and doggedly determined grunt, Tommy— so-named not for a specific person, but for the era’s slang term for a rank-and-file British soldier.

Whitehead’s story is one of sheer survival, desperately grabbing for any toehold to safety like a rat fleeing a flood.  His companion in this regard is a fellow soldier named Alex, played by world-renowned pop singer Harry Styles in his first major acting role.  Interestingly enough, Nolan reportedly wasn’t aware of Styles’ fame at the time, having thought he had cast a young unknown like Whitehead off the strength of his talents.

Styles nevertheless proves more than capable, readily eschewing any pretense of rock star glamor or vanity in order to fit in with the desperation and grit that surrounds him.  The sea-based sequences illustrate one of England’s crowning moments of the entire war, in which a small fleet of civilian pleasure cruisers sailed across the English Channel and directly into harm’s way to help evacuate their countrymen in uniform.

DUNKIRK zeroes in on the journey of The Moonstone, a tiny boat captained by Mark Rylance’s Mr. Dawson.  He courageously charts a treacherous course to Dunkirk with both his son and his son’s best friend in tow, only to find himself in a contained chamber drama when he picks up a lone, PTSD-riddled soldier caught adrift in open water.  Played by longtime Nolan collaborator Cillian Murphy, the Shivering Soldier (as he’s credited in the titles) is hellbent on getting back to London, and his combative response to Dawson’s insistence on keeping course to Dunkirk leads to drama just as unpredictable and dangerous as the battle they’re sailing into.

The last third of DUNKIRK’s triptych of narratives finds Tom Hardy as a hyper-focused RAF pilot named Farrier, expertly blasting German fighter planes out of the sky in his Spitfire— that is, until he runs low on fuel and risks having to ditch out behind enemy lines.  Another member of Nolan’s loyal repertory of performers, Hardy was no doubt selected in part because of his uniquely expressive eyes— an absolute necessity when the character’s face must be hidden behind a bulky flight mask for the majority of the picture.  Hardy had previously accomplished this same task for Nolan as the menacing masked brute, Bane, in 2012’s THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, and achieves in DUNKIRK a similar effect, albeit one that’s better calibrated to his character’s stoic heroism.  It’s also in Hardy’s storyline that one finds the film’s most cleverly-disguised cameo: Michael Caine, who just barely manages to add another link in his unbroken chain of successive performances for Nolan since BATMAN BEGINS by lending his iconic voice to the role of an officer dispatching commands over the two-way radio.  Out of a cast of literally hundreds, Jack Lowden, Barry Keoghan, Tom Glynn-Carney, and fellow director Kenneth Branagh deliver standout performances, with Branagh’s turn as Commander Bolton serving as a particularly compelling reminder of the dignified composure exhibited by the Allied brass even as the world was falling down around them.

With INTERSTELLAR, Nolan borrowed liberally from the Steven Spielberg school of filmmaking, adopting several of his predecessor’s stylistic affectations to imbue the unknowable majesty of space and our cosmic connectivity with a sense of overwhelming wonder and awe.  Spielberg has similarly influenced the war genre, with his 1998 classic SAVING PRIVATE RYAN providing the aesthetic and emotional benchmark for subsequent war pictures to follow.

While DUNKIRK shares inevitable similarities to SAVING PRIVATE RYAN in a stylistic sense, Nolan charts his own course, fashioning a visceral experience that speaks to his impeccable technical pedigree as well as his desire to reinvent the visual language of whatever genre he’s working in.  This is evident in the initial references he drew inspiration from— one might expect to see a list of iconic war films, but Nolan draws from a wider, more disparate pool of sources: ALL QUIET ON THE WESTERN FRONT and THE BATTLE OF ALGIERS appropriately conveyed the chaos of battle to his collaborators, but other works like THE WAGES OF FEAR, ALIEN, SPEED, FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT, and SUNRISE asserted themselves as exercises in sustained suspense or unique applications of montage.

SUNRISE, a 1927 silent classic by German director F.W. Murnau, a 1927 silent classic by German director F.W. Murnau, proved to be a key reference for DUNKIRK, with the narrative challenges inherent in the absence of sound demonstrated for the benefit of the film’s ambitions as an almost-exclusively visual work.  Towards this end, Nolan also looked to the influence of other silent-era directors like Cecil B. DeMille for his handling of epic spectacle and large crowds.

DUNKIRK retains the stark, austere visuals that Nolan is known for, adopting his signature metal & earth tone color palette while photochemically boiling his chromatic spectrum down to a limited range of cold blues, teals, and greys.  The gloomy daylight that hangs over the English Channel takes on a creamy tinge as it provides the key light for a naturalistic, yet foreboding presentation.  It’s only a matter of time until Nolan succeeds in making an entire picture with large format photography like IMAX, and DUNKIRK naturally represents Nolan’s most ambitious effort to date towards that goal.

Working once again with his INTERSTELLAR cinematographer Hoyte Van Hoytema, Nolan uses conventional 35mm celluloid film only when he has to— most notably in dialogue-intensive scenes that take place in cramped quarters like the Moonstone’s cabin below deck.  For the vast majority of DUNKIRK — about 70-75% of the finished product — Nolan, and Hoytema use a blend of large format 65mm and IMAX film.

While this approach retains the abrupt, somewhat-jarring shifts of aspect ratio between the CinemaScope 35mm and the larger full-frame gauges, DUNKIRK’s visceral command of its massive scale keeps the audience fully immersed with a minimum of distraction.

Nolan captures this overwhelming, all-consuming chaos with his signature epic flair, blending majestic classical camerawork with urgent handheld photography that ably evokes the “war is hell” tonality of SAVING PRIVATE RYAN while still asserting an aesthetic character all its own.  Nolan’s love of aerial photography works particularly well in this regard, bringing seasoned and enthusiastic energy to DUNKIRK’s Dramamine-necessitating dogfight sequences.

The film as a whole naturally acts as the latest showcase for Nolan’s advocacy for the supremacy of celluloid’s organic grit over digital’s glossy sheen, putting the format’s resiliency to the test many times over.  One particular instance would involve the loss of an IMAX camera when the plane it was mounted to accidentally sunk to the bottom of the sea.  While the camera was understandably toasted, the film inside was not.  Indeed, the hardy archival qualities of celluloid meant that not only was the footage useable— it was pristine.

While the film is stuffed to the brim with the epic spectacle we’ve come to expect from Nolan’s filmography, there’s also a curious tonal intimacy at play; a touch of the avant-garde that allows DUNKIRK to function as both a compelling dramatization of a historical event as well as an abstract meditation on industrial-scale survival and courage under extreme fire.

The bulk of DUNKIRK was shot in the locations where it actually happened— most notably, the same beach where soldiers lined up to board evacuation boats while bombs fell around them.  Nolan’s longtime production designer, Nathan Crowley, even rebuilt the mole from the original blueprints.  Even when the production moved to the waters off of Holland or a water tank in Los Angeles for select sequences, the crew dedicated themselves to historical accuracy in the details— right down to the last steel rivet.  At the same time, his treatment of landscape reduces his backdrops to two planes of action: above and below.

The shared horizon line that bisects his frames ties the mole, sea, and air narratives together with a thematic uniformity, but it also has the effect of abstractifying the action into an interior realm.  This impression goes a long way towards explaining why Nolan felt he needed to accumulate more experience & clout before embarking on production— especially in the calculated cynicism of today’s studio climate, he wouldn’t have been able to make DUNKIRK as the impressionistic survival & courage allegory that he did, at the level of production value he did, and with a mostly young and unknown cast… unless he himself was the brand that guaranteed a healthy return on investment.

It takes a great deal of experience and confidence to under-develop his characters in the manner he does here; it goes against every grain in our artistic bodies and everything we’ve been taught about writing stories.  However, Nolan recognized that the Battle of Dunkirk was a much bigger story than any one person and that the most effective version of any film recreation would be the one that captured the shared humanity of its participants while installing key avatars through which the audience could immerse itself fully and share in the experience.

This is something that cinema does better than almost any other established or emerging medium, and Nolan recognizes this.  It’s why he eschews cheap gimmickry like 3-D in favor of large film formats that quite literally fill the audience’s field of view.  It’s why he avoids the uncanny plastic sheen of digital and embraces the organic warmth and texture of celluloid.  Immersion demands as few barriers between the image and the audience as possible, and DUNKIRK succeeds in this regard due to Nolan’s artistic precision as well as the subtle abstract touch he brings to the proceedings.

Nowhere is Nolan’s avant-garde touch more evident than DUNKIRK’s original score, composed by longtime music collaborator Hans Zimmer in partnership with Benjamin Wallfisch and Lorne Balfe, among others.  Zimmer and Wallfisch’s foreboding suite of cues is anything but subtle, evoking the dark belly of the military-industrial beast that was World War 2.  Limited melodies compete for air against an expressive industrial texture, with an arrangement of string and brass instruments manipulated so as to recall the alarming whine of an approaching fighter plane or the listless whir of a ship engine as it teeters onto its side.

Simply put, the score is a harrowing, unrelenting juggernaut of abstract musicality, made all the more intense by Zimmer’s deployment of the “Shepard Tone”— an auditory illusion that Zimmer previously used to similar effect on THE PRESTIGEand in The Joker’s theme for THE DARK KNIGHT, wherein a sense of escalating danger is implied by a tone whose pitch seems to escalate towards infinity without breaking.

The effect is one of squirming tension on the part of the listener; an auditory twisting of the knife that corkscrews the anxious feelings in our stomachs, like waiting for the beat to drop in Hell.  As he did previously on INTERSTELLAR, Zimmer also synthesizes the sound of Nolan’s ticking pocket watch and lays it down it as the bedrock of DUNKIRK’s score.  As if the music wasn’t intense enough, the tick-tick-tick sound of time literally dripping away amplifies the desperate intensity of DUNKIRK’s tone while conveying to the audience just how close the world came to an Axis occupation of the United Kingdom— if it hadn’t been for the courageous spirit and dogged resistance of its people.

Indeed, time — the device of the ticking clock  — unifies the thematic whole of DUNKIRK, placing the film as an exploratory apex within Nolan’s career.  Again, the story essentially functions as one large escape sequence, with the Allied forces racing against the clock from the encroaching German menace as they try to get off the beaches of Dunkirk and safely across the English Channel.  In the capable hands of Nolan’s longtime editor, Lee Smith, this exercise in narrative minimalism becomes another forum in which Nolan can actively manipulate the bounds, indeed the very shape, of time itself.  Since his very first feature, Nolan has actively utilized cinema’s unique ability to convey sophisticated storytelling through nonlinear structure.  His primary tool in this regard is the cross-cut, which he’s employed throughout his filmography to tremendous effect.

Whereas Nolan’s previous films tend to use the cross-cut to add emotional heft to key narrative sequences, DUNKIRK basically functions as a feature-length string of cross-cuts.  Rather than numbing his audience to its effects, Nolan instead seems to reach a new level of complexity and sophistication with his approach to montage.  Each component of the story’s organizational triptych — the mole, the sea, and the air — takes place over a different time span: a week, a day, and one hour, respectively.

By dovetailing these sequences into each other as one seemingly-continuous event, Nolan effortlessly compresses and expands time at will.  Admittedly, this is a rather large leap of artistic license on Nolan’s part, especially when so much attention is otherwise paid to historical accuracy within the frame, but Nolan’s approach nonetheless captures the harrowing emotional truth of the battle.  The fractured chronological presentation also allows the story to revisit key moments from earlier in the film, revealing different perspectives that deepen our understanding of the big picture.

One such moment is the scene where Farrier’s co-pilot ditches into the sea.  From Farrier’s perspective in the air, it looks like a stable, almost peaceful water landing; assured of his colleague’s safety, he jets off to another part of the battle.  From the co-pilot’s perspective, however, it’s a very different story: beyond the initial impact of the crash landing, the cabin quickly fills up with water, and he can’t open the cockpit glass to escape.  DUNKIRK is filled with moments like these; moments that convey a complex, dueling subjectivity that amplifies as the various timelines intersect and collide with each other.

Nolan’s creative subversion of chronology is easily the most visible signifier of his authorship, but it’s far from the only one.  DUNKIRK abounds with displays of Nolan’s secondary artistic signatures, like his fascination with functional style as embodied in the military uniforms seen throughout, or Farrier’s on-the-fly calculations about his fuel consumption pointing to the director’s use of math and physics as a storytelling tool.  However, what immediately sets DUNKIRK apart from other films of its ilk is the sheer weight of the picture.

Nolan’s previous films all boast a visceral heft to their impact — a palpable gravity to match their monumental ambitions.  This impression is due in large part to Nolan’s dogged insistence on practical, old-fashioned filmmaking that demands everything that can be captured in-camera will be captured in-camera.  Famously averse to the reliance on CGI that stains the films of his contemporaries,  Nolan commands an intimidating array of practical resources that give DUNKIRK its distinct feeling of inescapable danger.

Make no mistake— the ability to make a film at this scale with the resources he demands is a luxury; a direct benefit of his status as a certified moneymaker and pop culture icon.  Fortunately, Nolan makes these demands always in service to his story, and not his vanity.  DUNKIRK finds Nolan’s deployment of practical FX reaching new levels of challenge, necessitating the director to alter how he conducted his own set in order to create a truly immersive environment for the audience.

For instance, he went so far as to have members of his own crew dress up in the military costumes worn by the extras so that they could hide in plain sight within the shot as he shot in all directions.  He also incorporated old-school techniques to amplify the size of his crowds; whereas now one can simply copy and paste any number of digital extras into a scene, he went to the trouble of creating detailed cardboard cutouts of soldiers to put in the far distance of his frames.

This pursuit of the analog over the digital permeates DUNKIRK, creating no shortage of technical challenges for his crew, like: “how exactly does one mount an IMAX camera to a vintage fighter plane?”.  We should know the answer by now: by quite literally bolting the camera mount to the wing of a specially-modified plane, attaching some specialty periscope lenses and taking that sucker up into the air.  DUNKIRK’s aerial dogfighting sequences boast some of the film’s most gripping moments; we can quite literally feel the G-forces pulling on our guts as we bank, roll, and dive with Farrier’s Spitfire. A substantial portion of these scenes were actually shot up in the air, with the actors in the cockpit.

Most filmmakers of Nolan’s ilk would be happy to throw up a mock cockpit in front of a green screen and call it a day, but his desire to capture as much of his shot in-camera as possible makes for footage that drips with hyperrealism.  In Nolan’s hands, the mounted camera becomes a powerful tool of visual storytelling, generating intense POV shots as well as the kind of surreal images that only cinema can conjure— a standout shot finds the camera mounted sideways to the deck of a ship as it rolls over towards the water, but since the deck is fixed to a stationary point within the frame, the sea appears to coalesce into an intimidating wall of water that rises up to swallow the boat wholly.

In a filmography devoted to the study of heroes in action, DUNKIRK offers a very different portrait of heroism— earnest, quiet courage and hopeful resilience that stands in stark contrast to the theatrical superheroics of THE DARK KNIGHT TRILOGY.  In this way, DUNKIRK represents something so much more than the director’s latest technical tour de force.  Rather, it represents an evolution; an artistic maturation of an intensely-cerebral filmmaker at the peak of his powers.  Despite possessing the monumental scope and bid-budget pyrotechnics we’ve come to expect from Nolan, DUNKIRK’s confidence to experiment with narrative structure and concise abstraction make for an unexpectedly intimate and personal experience.  It is, in essence, an art film masquerading as a summer blockbuster.

The reception to DUNKIRK’s theatrical release would reconcile these competing halves of the film’s psyche, with critics like The Hollywood Reporter’s Todd McCarthy hailing it as an “impressionist masterpiece” (5) and audiences flocking in droves to make it the highest-grossing World War 2 film of all time; generating half a billion dollars in worldwide box office receipts.  A slew of accolades and nominations would single out DUNKIRK for its direction, score, and cinematography come awards season, but as of this writing, its final fate in the prestige circuit has yet to be fully determined.

Regardless of its awards season success, DUNKIRK stands as yet another major achievement in Nolan’s intimidating filmography.  Its maximalist production values attain a unique harmony with his minimalistic narrative approach, making for a gripping cinematic experience that stands as one of the best of its genre.  DUNKIRK evidence that, after a lengthy string of mega-successful blockbusters, Nolan seems to be exploring beyond conventional narrative structures and presentations in order to find some kind of intimate, yet universal, emotional truth— a subversive purity that uses modern visual grammar to reinforce timeless artistic ideals.

In a time where critics and audiences alike conflate movies with television and vice-versa as one indistinguishable medium, Nolan’s lifelong quest to preserve the sanctity of the movie house and extoll its superiority to the home theater has never been more urgent.  DUNKIRK is nothing less than a shot across the bow— a slap upside the head that compels us to remember what makes the communal moviegoing experience such a special one.

For all his pop culture significance and ambitious storytelling, DUNKIRK reinforces the idea that Nolan’s greatest legacy of all may be as the man who dedicated his life to saving to the movies, wielding his considerable clout with industry suits and mainstream audiences alike to show that thought-provoking, challenging cinema can be a universal language that is accessible and enjoyable to all.


Nolan: Tenet (2020)

Director Christopher Nolan has spent most of his career imagining and entertaining various apocalypses, manifesting them onscreen via a series of big-budget action spectacles. He probably never imagined that the 2020 release of TENET, his eleventh feature film, would arrive in the midst of a very real one— an all-consuming “end of days” scenario for movie theaters and the medium of cinema, brought about by the devastating, still-ongoing coronavirus pandemic. Indeed, the world that Nolan released TENET into was not dissimilar to one he might have devised for his own work. Early on in the crisis, empty grocery store aisles were a common sight, echoing the famine that brought about a dust-choked existence in INTERSTELLAR (2014). As weeks stretched into months, a collective sense of pulling together to overcome a shared challenge splintered into a bitter divide drawn along political lines, eventually culminating in a failed siege on the US Capitol that — at the risk of making of a reductive comparison to one of the darkest days in American history — was strangely reminiscent of the mass street brawls that marked the climax of THE DARK KNIGHT RISES (2012).

TENET, then, would become not unlike one of his own protagonists: an individual possessed of elite skill and considerable financial resources, tasked with nothing less than saving the world. In this case, the world needing saving was the conventional theatrical experience— the megaplex. When health restrictions ruled out the ability to sit in a dark, enclosed room with hundreds of strangers for several hours, the beloved ritual of moviegoing collapsed overnight. Theaters around the world closed their doors; some, like LA’s cherished Arclight cinema chain, unwittingly shuttering forever. Even as case numbers dropped in the summer, prompting several chains to open back up and test the waters, auditoriums remained empty. Desperate for revenue and starving for a government bailout that wouldn’t come for several more months, theater chains (and studios) came to see TENET as their last great hope. After all, if Nolan’s latest effects spectacle couldn’t lure audiences back to the cinema, what could?

As if saving the cinema wasn’t enough pressure, TENET also faced a challenge that Nolan hadn’t experienced since 2002’s INSOMNIA: making its money back. At $205 million, it wasn’t just Nolan’s most expensive original film, it was also one of the most expensive original films in history (1). Furthermore, it was the most expensive film ever produced featuring a person of color in the lead role. The stakes had never been higher, and theatrical distribution was the only way a budget this high could hope to recoup its expenses. Rather than dump the film directly to streaming services as other studios had done, Warner Brothers repeatedly delayed the film’s theatrical release in hopes that case numbers would improve enough for audiences to feel comfortable returning en masse. This prospect seemed increasingly unlikely as 2020 slumped over the finish line and the numbers of the infected were higher than ever. Unable to wait a year or more (as other high profile releases like FAST 9 or NO TIME TO DIE had done), Warner Brothers had no choice but to put the film in theaters and let it play to an empty house. Thus, it would seem TENET was doomed to be Nolan’s first financial failure before it even had a chance to prove itself.

Nolan could take some consolation in the fact that the film had lived up to his own exacting creative standards. As an intensely-cerebral, time-bending spy thriller, TENET possesses a Nolan-esque pedigree that verges on the quintessential. The ideas contained within had been percolating in Nolan’s mind for twenty years, only manifesting themselves as an actual screenplay in the last six (1). After the comparatively narrow focus of 2017’s DUNKIRK, he harbored a desire to return to the expansive, globe-trotting scope of his previous epics (2). TENET — inspired by the James Bond franchise and other spy thrillers that had so formative an influence on his youth — would suggest itself as an ideal fit. However, this was not to be Nolan’s take on a Bond movie; this was to be, rather, what he described as a “memory” or a “feeling” of the genre. Not a direct homage per se, but a pure intuiting of its mechanics from a broader exposure, with each of his key collaborators bringing their subjective experiences to the table in pursuit of something more original.

Indeed, there’s never been a spy picture like TENET, what with Nolan’s signature manipulation of chronology as a core plot point. It’s easy to make light of the general concept— “Nolan just discovered Avid’s ‘reverse’ button” — but it’s clear that he is after a much more complicated understanding of time as it relates to physics. Despite soliciting guidance from his INTERSTELLAR consultant and Nobel-prize winning astrophysicist Kip Thorne, Nolan is the first to admit that scientific accuracy is not the goal. Nor is TENET about the concept of time travel in the way that pop culture understands it, grounding its central idea in the concept of reverse entropy as a way to assign backwards chronological travel to individual objects rather than our timeline as a whole. The end result is as intellectually elusive as it is viscerally engaging; a two-and-a-half hour embodiment of an expositional character’s exhortation to TENET’s hero: “don’t try to understand it. Feel it”.

Like a true spy film, TENET zips around the world in its chronicle of The Protagonist, a rather cheeky moniker given to John David Washington’s elite field operative who is tasked with preventing a future war his handlers only know about because its detritus is peppering our present. Washington, son of the great Denzel, plays down his celebrity lineage to deliver a star-making turn all his own as the unflappably cool, enigmatic hero. He’s emotionless, but not cold; the embodiment of the word “spook”, he seemingly has no personal life to speak of, having devoted the entirety of his existence to the shadows. When a counter-terrorist operation at a Ukrainian opera house results in his capture, The Protagonist attempts suicide by cyanide capsule to avoid giving up crucial information to his captors. The afterlife that awaits him on the other side is a bit unexpected, to say the least: after waking up in a tanker in the middle of the ocean, the mysterious stranger at his bedside (INSOMNIA’s Martin Donovan) recruits him for a top secret mission with an enigmatic code word: “tenet”. The word is also the name of an equally-secret organization that has been collecting various objects evidencing a state of reverse entropy; that is, they move backwards. The organization believes these objects to be the detritus of a devastating war in the future, and the only way to avert it is for The Protagonist to track down a Russian oligarch named Sator.

Played with an icy intelligence by fellow director (and DUNKIRK performer) Kenneth Branagh, Sator is a nasty piece of work— a cruel, abusive, nihilist with the financial means to satisfy any earthly desire. There’s two things his fortune can’t buy him, however. One is time, as he’s slowly being consumed from within by terminal cancer. The other is love; unable to earn the affection of his wife, Kat, he’s opted for her fear instead. As the film’s chief feminine presence, the 6’3 actress Elizabeth Debicki quite literally towers over her co-stars as Sator’s kept companion. She’s a professional art appraiser who effortlessly glides through high society circles, none of whom have any idea about the bitter abuse she endures for the sake of her son. She proves a valuable partner in The Protagonist’s mission, granting him access to Sator’s inner circle at great risk to her own life. Robert Pattinson’s Neil is another valuable asset to The Protagonist. Cavalier, laidback, and rakishly disheveled, Neil is an elite agent for Tenet who seems a little too well-equipped to follow along with the mind blowing revelations of the mission at hand. His laidback attitude balances rather nicely with The Protagonist’s buttoned-up focus, leading to the warmth of unexpected friendship that counters the aesthetic coldness frequently levied against Nolan by his critics.

As the gargantuan scope of The Protagonist’s mission becomes clear, Nolan’s supporting cast responds in kind, giving the audience a handful of additional characters who each contribute another piece of the central puzzle. Aaron-Tyler Johnson goes full commando as Ives, a brusque, hipster-bearded special ops officer who helps The Protagonist acclimate to the unworldly working conditions of a reverse entropic state. Dimple Kapadia, a prominent Hindi actress making a rare appearance in an American studio picture, plays Priya, a wealthy, Mumbai-based arms dealer who counters the moral bankruptcy of her profession with a warm elegance and matronly demeanor. Nolan mainstay Michael Caine makes a brief cameo as the bespectacled Crosby, a British intelligence officer who conveys early intel about Sator. Jeremy Theobald, the protagonist of Nolan’s lo-fi debut FOLLOWING (1998), also makes a brief cameo in the same sequence, playing a buttoned-up concierge and waiter at Crosby’s dining club.

TENET reunites Nolan with his INTERSTELLAR and DUNKIRK cinematographer Hoyte Van Hoytema, with those prior works becoming a platform upon which to further experiment with large-format filmmaking. The pair switch confidently between 65mm and IMAX film, the latter deployed primarily for action sequences and awe-inducing establishing shots. Also like all of Nolan’s prior films since THE DARK KNIGHT, the mixing of formats would require a constant switching of aspect ratios— 2.39:1 CinemaScope for the 65mm and 1.43:1 for IMAX (further matted to 1.78:1 for home video). Beyond setting a personal record for the most amount of IMAX footage shot at 1.6 million feet (1), TENET doesn’t attempt to expand Nolan’s stately technical aesthetic beyond the reverse conceits required by the narrative, choosing instead to deliver the weighty big-screen experience that we’ve come to expect (and demand) from him. Whether mounted to a crane, a helicopter, or atop the operator’s shoulders, the camera maintains its dogged focus on spectacle and scope as the characters push the story forward. The familiar stone & steel color palette of Nolan’s previous films gives TENET a washed-out, earthy feel, while pops of red & blue are used as visual signifiers of the flow of time— a reference to the Doppler shift, which points out how light moving away from the observer takes on a reddish quality due to longer wavelengths, whereas the shorter wavelengths of incoming light reads as blue.

There’s a case to be made for TENET as Nolan’s ugliest film, which isn’t necessarily a criticism. Though the desaturated color palette certainly doesn’t offer much in the way of vibrant color, the deliberate choice to shoot primarily in the Eastern European city of Tallinn, Estonia (1) imbues the film with a grey, Brutalist quality reminiscent of the utilitarian edifices of the Soviet era. Supplementary locales like Mumbai further add to this feeling, with a sweaty, overcrowded populace laboring underneath the shadow of Priya’s looming residence— a needle-like high-rise built for a single family that serves as a physical embodiment of globalism’s treacherous side effect: runaway income inequality, which has paved the way for a handful of billionaires like Sator to bend society to their exploitative whims. Nolan’s longtime production designer Nathan Crowley uses these unfamiliar locations to his advantage, subsequently fashioning a kind of abstract urbanity that anonymizes their surroundings akin to INCEPTION’s monolithic cityscapes. This particular aspect finds particular resonance in TENET’s climax, which finds The Protagonist and his colleagues undertaking a massive operation in both conventional and reverse chronology amidst the towering ruins of a decimated ghost city that was once Sator’s home.

Though TENET benefits from the expected pedigree of longtime collaborators like Crowley, Hoytema, and Emma Thomas, Nolan’s partner in production as well as life, two other key figures — editor Lee Smith and composer Hans Zimmer — abstain from the proceedings, the former already committed to Sam MENDES’ 1917 and the latter turning Nolan down so as to score Denis Villeneuve’s DUNE (1). Rather than lament the temporary loss of valued colleagues, Nolan would take this opportunity to inject some young blood into the film, replacing Smith with Jennifer Lame and Zimmer with Ludwig Göransson. Known previously for her work on Kenneth Lonergan’s MANCHESTER BY THE SEA and Ari Aster’s HEREDITARY, Lee proves her editing chops are just as capable in the action arena as they are in drama or horror. She deftly handles TENET’s display of reverse entropy in action, helping us make sense of where (and when) we are in sequences that could just as easily be a cumbersome and confusing succession of images.

Göransson further cements his reputation as arguably the fastest-rising star in film composing, creating a rather stunning original score that favors percussion and experimental electronic textures over conventional orchestration. Composed of crashing synth waves, aggressive drums, sirens, and dubstep-adjacent rhythms, the overall effect is not unlike having a bad trip at a warehouse rave… but in a good way. Indeed, the score’s most conventional element is a guitar accent that evokes James Bond without emulating John Barry’s iconic theme. The massive character of Görannson’s sound is even more impressive considering that its orchestral elements were recorded separately by individual musicians working around strict lockdown measures (1). For the character of Sator specifically, Göransson employs an inspired leitmotif that sounds like someone gasping for breath, musically reinforcing his terminal condition as well as the story’s conceit that one must rely on an oxygen mask while in an inverted state. The effect was reportedly achieved through heavy electronic distortion of the original recording, which funnily enough, featured Nolan himself breathing heavily into a microphone (1). To cap things off, Göransson repurposes the score’s unique sound as the backing track to a collaboration with rapper Travis Scott, resulting in an original single titled “The Plan” which boasts the distinction of not only being the first hip-hop song to be used in Nolan’s filmography, but also the first time that the director had used a companion single in conjunction with any of his works (1). Though it’s tempting to imagine what Zimmer might have contributed to Nolan’s latest opus, Görannson’s Herculean efforts keep us from dwelling too much on the elder maestro’s absence.

Beyond his demonstrable mastery of filmmaking’s technical conceits and the visual grammar of epic spectacle, the aura of “timeliness” that envelopes Nolan’s storytelling seems to be rooted in his ability to harness our modern anxieties and transpose them onto a gigantic apocalyptic canvas. Unlike the shock-and-awe, landmark-destruction porn engineered by disaster-movie contemporaries like Roland Emmerich, Nolan’s apocalypses are rather intimate, the sharp end of their spears angled directly at the individual even as the rest of the world hangs in the balance. Even without the threat of coronavirus looming over its release, TENET’s central macguffin — the so-called “algorithm” that Sator seeks to reassemble from pieces sent to our present by mysterious agents from the future — evokes the rapidly-destabilizing nature of the social media age. Just as Sator’s efforts are veiled under the guise of benevolent climate change reversal, so too are the data-based algorithms that build our timelines and newsfeeds being twisted away by bad actors from their original community and relationship-cultivating purposes in order to mislead, disinform, and divide; instead of connection, these algorithms are ultimately fostering isolation, siloing us off into our respective echo chambers and alternative realities. The COVID-19 pandemic has only compounded the problem, subsequently imbuing TENET with an eerie prescience that seems to predict the age of sickness to come. Images of The Protagonist wearing an oxygen mask that serves to sustain him in the face of an inhospitable reverse entropic state unwittingly transcend Nolan’s personal artistic fascinations to coincide with our new masked reality. Likewise, the aforementioned gasping leitmotif that Göransson builds into the score loses its impressionistic storytelling quality as it transforms into a breathless dispatch from hospitals overwhelmed by respiratory failure on an unimaginable scale. Furthermore, the isolating effects of a year in lockdown served to obliterate our collective perception of time, robbing it of meaning while entombing us in a suspended state of waiting— waiting for case numbers to decline, for vaccines to arrive, for our lives to resume. It was almost as if we had been “incepted” into one of Nolan’s films, with the strings that constitute our sense of temporal continuity and progression being manipulated by some unseen puppetmaster for reasons beyond our comprehension.

TENET’s exploration of reverse entropy, the latest snaking tendril in Nolan’s careelong fascination with the manipulation of time, also finds an oblique relevance in the broader cultural obsession with nostalgia. It seems in recent years, the comfort of looking back on supposed “better times” has become a kind of drug, and media conglomerates its dealer. Popular shows like STRANGER THINGS, or reboots/remakes/reimagining of beloved properties from our youth consume the media landscape, delivering continual hits of pleasure and dopamine. In recognizing and profiting off our collective desire to travel back in time, they have effectively weaponized our nostalgia against us, lulling us into willing complacency as the world burns; they keep us jonesing for the next entry, the next installment… the next hit. TENET recognizes this danger, building its backwards-moving story progression around the idea of reverse radiation as a byproduct of nuclear fission. In short, what’s promised to be the next great technological leap forward in civilization — the achieving of cheap, clean, and infinite energy via the replication of the sun’s natural processes on earth — is a double-edged sword that threatens to destroy our past & present even as it promises to save our future. The film repeatedly makes clear the perils of moving backward in time; it could be argued that our desire to do so is rooted in wanting to return to a simpler state than our complicated present allows. What TENET tells us, then, is that the past contains the seeds of said present; nostalgia is a false illusion that, while admittedly pleasurable, ultimately inhibits growth— and as the protagonists of our own stories, forward movement is the only way we will achieve our various objectives.

In the context of Nolan’s own growth, TENET is another prime example of the unique artistic traits that distinguish him as an undeniably compelling voice. The use of entropy as a means of manipulating time speaks to his reputation as a kind of “emotional mathematician”. He roots the fantastical in the practical, turning to physics, science and data as storytelling tools in their own right. At times, TENET is a touch too dense for its own good — I’m no rocket scientist, but I’ve at least been able to follow along with the various plot convolutions of Nolan’s previous films until now. The climatic “temporal pincer movement”, in which one team moves forward in conventional time using intel derived from a second team simultaneously moving backward, requires the closest of attention be paid to fully understand its narrative intricacies. To his credit, Nolan understands the intellectual unwieldy-ness of his setup, and the aforementioned scene in which the Protagonist is urged to “feel” the reverse entropic state instead of understanding it serves as an urging of his audience to do the same. It’s an acknowledgment that TENET is far more enjoyable as a visceral experience than an intellectual exercise, and the film is all the better for it.

This loosened, near-self-aware approach extends to other signature aspects of Nolan’s artistry, such as the functional style of his characters. Though The Protagonist is well-dressed to the extent that anyone wouldn’t hesitate to call him stylish, his sartorial sensibilities are nevertheless muted and utilitarian; they favor shape and structural integrity over color or flash. His clothes speak to his singular focus on his profession and strategic advantage (a key plot point sees him need to wear an expensive designer suit to even gain an audience with Sator). At the same time, another beat sees The Protagonist casually dismiss a Tenet operative’s urging to wear tactical protective clothing before venturing outside in his reverse entropic state. It’s Nolan’s way of telling us to not take things too seriously, and it’s advice directed as much towards himself as it is his audience; a self-regulating bid to prevent TENET from being too obtuse for its own good.

It likely wouldn’t have mattered whether or not TENET was too convoluted or conceptually dense; it was the latest Nolan film, after all, and it would be the biggest hit of the year outside of Marvel. But this wasn’t a normal year. This was the pandemic year— the year of global crisis that affected all of humanity and yet seemed perfectly-engineered to imperil the most personal aspects of our individual lives. To Nolan, champion and defender of the theatrical experience, the forced closure of cinemas across the world was a direct attack against the core of his artistic being. “You either die a hero, or you live long enough to become the villain”, Harvey Dent famously intones in 2008’s THE DARK KNIGHT, and a figure who insists on audiences seeing his work in his preferred viewing experience while putting them at risk of exposure to a deadly, out-of-control virus could certainly be described as something of a villain. As other studios and filmmakers shifted gears, embracing a gradual shift towards streaming that had only intensified in lockdown, Nolan insisted that the cinema was the only place his new film could be seen. As such, the release was delayed no less than three times while case numbers ebbed and surged in relentless waves. In the end, TENET was indeed released theatrically, but only to the handful of theaters that were still open— most of them in international markets that had done a much better job controlling case numbers than the US. Considering all of that, its $363 million worldwake box office take should be impressive, but pales in comparison to Nolan’s billion-dollar track record. A disappointment, even one with several caveats, is still a disappointment, and the occasion of Nolan’s first true professional disappointment is cause for reflection on mainstream filmmaking’s high-stakes, unsustainable addiction to immense returns… which requires ever-higher production and advertising budgets to generate.

As the pandemic began to recede into the rearview of history, TENET has enjoyed the opportunity to be seen by more people, and for its many positive qualities to be embraced. A collection of generous reviews would sing the film’s praises, with The Ringer’s Keith Phillips notably proclaiming that its bungled release actually positioned it well as a future cult favorite (3). Nevertheless, the occasion of TENET’s release came coupled with an unexpected development. In their haste to embrace the newfound flexibility of the streaming age, Warner Brothers announced that their entire 2021 release slate would be available to subscribers on their proprietary streaming platform, HBO Max, the same day the films would hit theaters. In so doing, they ran afoul of the talent they otherwise proclaimed to value, robbing them of significant shares of theatrical revenue they had previously negotiated for. While this development came too late for Nolan to be personally affected, Warner Brothers’ spurning of the theatrical window was nevertheless a bridge too far— and presumably the end of the road with the studio that had been his home for most of his career. He publicly eviscerated their decision, even going so far as to call HBO Max “the worst streaming service”. It remains to be seen whether feathers can be unruffled, and the question of his next move is a rather large one. Whatever his next project may be, it will undoubtedly emerge into a profoundly-changed exhibition landscape; his lifelong quest to “save the movies” will face its biggest challenge yet. From our current vantage point, it’s unclear whether or not he will ultimately succeed, but one thing is certain: in trying, he is ready to risk everything.

Menento Analysis Transcription

Well my brother told me the story verbally before he finished writing it and the screenplay is an extrapolation of his basic idea which I was fascinated by. He told it to me while we were driving cross country between Chicago and Los Angeles and we both decided right away that by far the most interesting way of approaching that concept was subjectively to tell a story in the first person. So he went off to write his short story.

I went off to write the screenplay and my solution to telling the story subjectively was to deny the audience the same information that the protagonist is denied. And my approach to doing that was to effectively tell the story backwards that way when we meet a character we don’t know just like the protagonist how he’s met that person whether he’s even met that person before and whether or not they should be trusted, that kind of thing.

So the story is basically told back which is basically told as a series of flashbacks that go further and further back in time. What’s similar to my brother story as he finally finished it. It’s being published next month actually in Esquire magazine and in the States and the similarity in structure is both the film and the short story deal with repetition and internal echoes and also both alternate between the objective in the subjective.

So in the screenplay what I did as I said I need a way of breaking up the flashbacks so that we separate the scenes in our mind and feel this progression further and further back in time. So what I did is I alternated between these color sequences that are intensely subjective, everything in the color sequences is from caller’s point of view, we’re always in his head at least to begin with. We alternate with these black and white sequences that at least to begin with our objective.

They present a little bit more filmy black and white, it’s grainy the shots are sometimes the overhead a little bit more distance it’s a more objective. We don’t hear the voice of the other end of the telephone; we’re not really in his head. The voice overs and the color sequence in the Black wants it was a very different and the color sequence is the voice of the mind.

It’s the first person it’s very much his thoughts as he’s thinking them in the black and white scenes they sound a bit like interview grabs you know a bit like this kind of interview edited and laid over pictures of him in this room going about his life.

So I wanted to introduce this almost documentary style element at the beginning to give the audience a little bit of information, objective information about how this guy lives his life and what he thinks and to break up these scenes. So the black and white sequences, the chronology is forward, they run forward in time as we realize as we go further and further along with film. As the film progresses the color sequences become a little bit less intensely subjective.

I think towards the end of the film we really start to step outside his head a little bit and start to question some of the things we’ve been told about this character or some other things he’s told us himself. The black and white scenes on the other hand as the movie progresses, they become less and less objective.

We start to get more and more into his head as he exists in this my tower. And in fact when the black and white and the color scenes actually meet towards the end of the movie and I think these two perspectives, the objective, the subjective of the backwards running narrative in the forwards running narrative they actually meet at what is the end of the movie chronologically I guess you could call it the middle of the movie.

It’s confusing because I don’t think pictorially diagrammatically. OK you have the beginning of the film here. The best way to draw it is as a hairpin like that, that’s basically the end of the movie, this stuff is the black and white stuff, this is color and this is running backwards as a series of jumps and what we do is we cut tween the two the whole way through, so we alternate scene here scene, scene here and here and they meet towards the end of the film.

But then within this you have flashbacks to a different timeline which is actually even earlier somewhere around there. Also within this you have flashbacks to an earlier time, some in there.

So I guess you could use the heap in shape to represent the bulk of the film. With the black and white with the color meeting in the last reel, the end of the film being sort of their after it turns really color and kind of lead us into the beginning of that proceeding scene.

But you have other material that actually precedes the beginning of the black and white scenes and the gap between the beginning of the black and white scenes and this long term memory stuff, some of which is color some of which is black and white. That gap is unspecified. The lead character because of his particular condition he can never know how long that’s been he’s cut loose in time effectively.

So we never wanted to specify for the audience. We imply a length of time to it because it’s the time in which he’s had these tattoos put on, he’s been living this life so forth. So that gap to me is where the most interesting ambiguity of the film is the end you know we never wanted to step fully outside of his head and you know specify too many of these things in terms of an objective reality because to me one of the interesting things about the film and what we were trying to do is essentially present an idea of the tension between our subjective view of the world, the subjective way in which we have to experience life and then our faith in an objective reality beyond that.

And most movies present a quite comfortable universe where we’ve given an objective truth that we don’t get in everyday life, it’s one of the reasons we go to the movies. In this film, we don’t want to do that, we don’t want to step outside his head. We wanted to present the audience with that problem effectively and say ‘he can’t ever get outside his head and recognize what the objective truth is’ So I think the audience at the end of the film is left to make certain of the same judgments that he is the invited to believe or disbelieve certain elements of what is supposed to have happened in his life much as he is.

And I think the way that we try and focus on this end of the film and making that as extreme as possible is by taking this subjective view on this objective view and effectively having them meet at the end, so that what we achieve is still subjective but with enough objective information built into it that we start to question the point of view that we’ve been given for the whole film.

Well within the hip and structure, we have different elements of his past life that we want to introduce and we the way we divided them is that some of them are presented in black and white and those are the ones that relate to a parallel story that runs parallel to his life. But it’s a story of another character who has the same condition. And that is all presented chronologically and cuts into the black and white scenes not into the color scenes.

The memories of his longer time life, his own life the life within his own head therefore also to me you know that the subjective experience these sort of memories of his wife, these images of his wife are all shot in color and I will present in the color sequences not in a black and white sequences, so we keep those separate.

But as you may have noticed towards the end of the movie there is a certain amount of joining of these images and confusion of these images and some of the things we’ve only seen it in color are presented in black and white and vice versa. So certainly once again we’re trying to basically merge the subjective and the objective, the memory versus the sort of narrative that he has in his head of this other this other character.

So the other thing we want to be doing in the end in terms of the way in which we mix images and reinterpret images is to suggest the complex relationship between Imagination and Memory. And we see him towards the end, we present certain images that we’ve seen from his past life within a different context and in a different context they have slightly different meaning and I think the suggestion there is that he like all of us is able to manipulate the meanings of certain memories or manipulate his own interpretations of certain memories according to his present circumstance.

Yes the way in which we cut between these two things is will take a color scene and then we’ll cut to a black and white scene that’s shorter in length and then we come back to the colors here and we basically, as these are going essentially backwards in time, we sort of leap frogging and we wind up repeating the beginning of a scene at the end of another scene vice versa. And in that way we use repetitions of certain parts of scenes to clear the audience in to where they are chronologically.

So essentially what we’re always doing is we’re beginning every scene with something a cliffhanger, something of an unusual situation or a memorable image and then in our later seen we’re explaining how that situation has been arrived at and that’s the rhythm of the film over the entire course of the movie. So it’s in a way taking a familiar cinematic rhythm. You know the rhythm of the cliffhanger orthe question and then the answer and it’s presenting that as an alternating rhythm the whole way through the film.

Yeah, the black and white stuff is all derived from a forward running sequence. So if you take these individual Black and White sequences, they run forwards. If you stick them together they actually overlap in the same way that the backwards scenes overlap. It’s not quite so obvious when you’re watching the movie but you know it begins with him sort of shaving his thigh and answering the phone and everything and in fact these actions overlap.

So there is a suggestion that in fact and it is the case that you can stick our scenes together and achieve one sort of long scene effectively. And that episodic structure was one that I wanted to employ because the overlapping flashbacks of the color sequences for complex structure, the black and white stuff is actually pretty simple to follow because it follows the basic episodic structure was very familiar with me from watching T.V.

You know it’s like you break something up with T.V. commercials, very easy to just keep following a very simple forward progression in this case it’s him on his own in a room speaking on a telephone, so it’s a very simple sequence of forward progression and it’s not too difficult as we return to it to just tap into it and say OK this is where we are we’re back here on familiar ground we’re just going to get a bit more information about you know who he is and what he’s discussing on this telephone call.

The overlaps become shorter as the film progresses because the assumption is that it seems to work that the audience gets into the kind of rhythm they begin to understand that the structure is backwards. We in fact begin the film with a literally backward scene at the head; I mean we’re literally running reverse action. The rest of the film is forward action but in a series of backward steps, it’s kind of you know one step forward two steps back the whole way through.

But at a certain point those repetitions are able to be a little bit shorter because the audience isn’t rhythm and then there is a point at which in certain scenes we actually don’t achieve the same repetition we actually make an illusion. You know we make a complete jump the same way in a conventional movie they will do that. You know when you reach a point with two scenes so obviously connect chronologically so you don’t have to explain the chronological relationship.

So there’s a point sort of midway through the film where we begin to do that a little bit. But then we come back to the repetitions because some of the repetitions later in the film I think are important for their own sake, not just for explaining to the audience where we are but also for hammering home this in notion that it’s the context of a scene, it’s the context within which a particular action happens like there’s a point at which he’s searching for a pen and he’s trying to write some down to remember something and all the rest and we see that once so we don’t really understand and we see it again has a rather different meaning.

So there’s repetition start to take on a more substantial role I think in the narrative other than just orienting in time they actually start to suggest the way in which the narrative context in which a particular action happens is changing what that action represents. And that relates once again to his subjective view of what he’s doing in the room and how that’s actually affected by what’s going on around him which becomes I think very important to the overall theme of the movie.

At the beginning of the movie I was looking for a way into this structure, the way into this storytelling. So what I wanted to do was to show something in reverse to suggest that the backwards movement of the film. But the way in which the Polaroid is used through the film is as a replacement for short term memory.

It seemed like showing a Polaroid picture on developing, showing the picture on developing and showing this information being lost. It seemed like a very useful way of suggesting the problem that he’s having to deal with which is you know this faulty short term memory and this information dribbling away and in fact the opening shot is you know it’s a Polaroid of what that body.

I think the significance of that becomes clear later in the movie in terms of how I was interested in looking at his relationship of his perception of revenge versus the notion of whether it has any objective reality or has any value outside his out head. So this achievement of revenge, the satisfaction of that body, this gruesome image fading and actually I’m developing and losing itself from his mind.

That actually is pretty much of the whole movie; in fact you can just watch opening shot you to the movies. Thank you.


Author Cameron Beyl is the creator of The Directors Series and an award-winning filmmaker of narrative features, shorts, and music videos.  His work has screened at numerous film festivals and museums, in addition to being featured on tastemaking online media platforms like Vice Creators Project, Slate, Popular Mechanics and Indiewire. To see more of Cameron’s work – go to directorsseries.net.

THE DIRECTORS SERIES is an educational collection of video and text essays by filmmaker Cameron Beyl exploring the works of contemporary and classic film directors. ——>Watch the Directors Series Here <———

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