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IFH 709: The Virgin’s Journey & Sexual Awakening with Kim Hudson

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Kim Hudson 0:00
I can conquer it and I can go out and be active in the world. So that's my relationship to self in a masculine way. And then in a feminine way is I learned how to turn the camera inwards and how to bring something authentic about myself into a physical form almost like alchemy.

Alex Ferrari 0:17
This episode is brought to you by Bulletproof Script Coverage, where screenwriters go to get their scripts read by Top Hollywood Professionals. Learn more at covermyscreenplay.com I'd like to welcome to the show, Kim Hudson. How you doin Kim?

Kim Hudson 0:32
I'm good. Thank you for having me.

Alex Ferrari 0:34
Thank you so much for coming on the show. Like I was telling you earlier. I really love your your book because and please remind me the name I don't have it with me.

Kim Hudson 0:45
The virgins promise the virgins price of feminine spiritual and creative awakening, sexual awakening,

Alex Ferrari 0:52
Obviously, we have to, we have to throw in the sexual awakening it because it's interesting, you really kind of take the hero's journey, which is something that every screenwriter should know. Even if they don't use it, they should know. But you turn it on its head a little bit and look at it from a feminine perspective. And I'm dying to kind of get into the weeds with you for but first, how did you get involved? And how did you get interested in writing a book like this? Because there really hasn't, if Am I mistaken? There's no other book like this right?

Kim Hudson 1:25
Now there isn't, which really surprises me. The biggest thing is that that phrase all story from all the time it's a hero's journey has just embedded itself in people's psyche. So they're not really looking, they'll say, Oh, well, there's the hero line. But no, that's that's the energy of a hero a fear based journey to conquer something, including your own fear. And, and when the day is a very externally focused story. And heroine is just a woman doing that job. Whereas this one, this one is the exact opposite. This is about turning inward, and awakening to your true potential, your, your sense of connection to who you are, what your talent is, what your sexual orientation is, something that's authentic about you. And then how do we go about first discovering that, growing it, and then bringing it to life? Now, what I was gonna say actually didn't answer your question. How did I actually get there? How did I, I think, you know, I grew up I grew up in a in a family that highly valued the masculine. And so I just tried to do everything I could, I played ice hockey, I became a geologist, I jumped over helicopters and grizzly bear country, you know, like I was really given her and even then, I started to recognize that when I was alone, after the helicopter left, I did things in my way. And I was actually good at finding patterns of mineralization all those kinds of things because I was trusting my intuition I was going inward and and discovering where that would take me a trusted walking into the unknown. And all of these things are parts of a virgin journey. And virgin, I always have to say this, if I had $1 for every time, Virgin is what I mean is the original meaning of it, which means to be of value to seen for your value just for being yourself, like a virgin forest. It's commonly used in Union thought.

Alex Ferrari 3:36
So not not as virgin as as in the 1980s comedies.

Kim Hudson 3:41
Yeah, yeah. Not as like men can count on you haven't been taken before, you know,

Alex Ferrari 3:48
Virgin scenario.

Kim Hudson 3:49
Yeah, but it does actually mean I mean, going from Virgin to inactive person and knowing sort of what you like and don't like it's actually is that it's awakening to your sexual orientation. That's one of the most fundamental ways of finding your authentic self.

Alex Ferrari 4:06
It's really interesting, it seems to me from just from the short conversation so far that it is an inward journey more than an outward journey. Yeah, because the hero's journey is all about conquering the the the dragon that is in the cave that is guarding the treasure where this one is about conquering the dragon inside of you and discovering who you really are, which is man it's literally the flip side of the of the coin of the hero's journey literally,

Kim Hudson 4:33
As a matter of fact, as a hero you're conquering you're controlling you're taking control over something outside of you, but actually the dragon inside you you're welcoming. You're you're exploring what does it want me to know what's the you know? It's the opposite in every fundamental way.

Alex Ferrari 4:51
I've said on the show many times I've surrounded by feminine energy constantly. I have no testosterone anywhere near me at anytime I have women I've been around women my entire her life single mother, the whole ball of wax. So I understand more than most about feminine energy not anywhere near as much as obviously you. But I do, I do have a better take on it than most men do. And as I've grown older, what you're talking about is really interesting, because I think at the beginning of a man's career, or man's life, a boy's life, we are about conquering, we are about showing physicality, we are about going in and grabbing the the gold or the treasure and bringing it back. Yeah, all of that kind of, you know, macho testosterone thing. But as you get older, you know, even the toughest guys that I know, you know, Navy Seals and other people like that, they start to when that's done, they start to look inward. And then the beginning of that journey starts at a later time in a man's life. Again, very broad, broad spectrum I'm talking about here, not everybody, but most. And it seems to me that a woman's journey, and please, please correct me, it seems to be more an inward journey at the beginning of her her life trying to figure herself out in the world, is that a fair statement?

Kim Hudson 6:18
I would say there's definitely and particularly today that we're on this place where there's room for women to be themselves, and yet there's still vestiges of like a dependent world, I think we get messages that, you know, either that you might hate what you have to be pleasing, or that it's a male dominated world, and you have to sort of emulate men to get ahead in the world, but there's still those messages out there. So there is this, this starting out where you feel that you're meant for something, and it's in contrast to the environment that you're in, and you have to figure out a way to, to go inward, be strong enough in who you know, you are. And I call it a secret world, like, it's part of the story where you have to find a place where you, you feel like you're, you're surrounded by friends, and then people want you to do well. And then you can play, you can make mistakes, you can laugh, you can step into the unknown and, and then figure out what it what it needs from you or what it has to offer. So we still we have that when we're young. But I would actually say at the time when like it's a circle. So you, your children leave and suddenly all your roles have drifted away. And you need to go back again, you need to circle back and find out who am I now I'm not the same person that I was when I first discovered myself. And you're sort of born again, your third learning again to find out who this authentic person is today and then see that person in the world.

Alex Ferrari 7:50
So let's talk about the actual journey of the Virgin our archetypal journey, which, in the hero's journey, we all, you know, call to adventure and, you know, you know, the point of no return and all these kinds of terms that Joseph Campbell, so beautifully built out. And then Chris Vogler, talked about it so beautifully for the film industry. What is what are those key points in, in the Virgin journey?

Kim Hudson 8:17
Okay, I'll do my little party trick. I think that in five minutes, I can tell you a virgin story. And it can, if you'll hold in your mind, even something like Joker, or Billy Elliot, or coda, Black Swan, all of these are really great examples of virgin story. So I'm going to tell them in a certain order, but one thing I've discovered is it's nonlinear. So you actually could tell these beats in any order, but those beats will fundamentally be part of the journey. Okay? So the Virgin starts out in a dependent world, where messages around her Tell her how she should behave. But there's a price that she's paying, either she's aware of it, and she's hiding it, or she's even asleep to her own potential, but she's paying a price for conformity. Until one day, she gets this opportunity to shine a little taste of what it would be like to be herself. And she takes it, she likes it. And it's usually almost the moment of alchemy, where the dancer gets the shoes and just the putting them on seems to activate something or sexual orientation becomes clearer because they take off their clothes, and suddenly they know what they want. So now that they know, a little taste of it, they want more. So they create a secret well, because they're not ready to blow up their dependent world. These are actually their, their family, their home life. So what they do is they create a secret world so they can go back and forth between the two. And then the secret world as I mentioned, they're learning to become more connected and playing with what it might look like and they've got friends, they can make mistakes. But that going back and forth is crucial. They they're learning the contrast between what they think they want their life to be and what their life is and why Those differences have to exist. And they're kind of building a bridge until one day, they start to expand to the point where they just can't stay contained. And the two collide their two worlds, their dependent world and their sicuro collide and form one. And the kingdom goes into chaos. A lot of pent up energy, there's synchronicities that have been held together, suddenly, there's permission and things start blowing up. But there's this moment where she recognizes because of all that back and forth, that she can give up the belief that she had to behave that way she did in her dependent world, she gives up the belief that was keeping her stuck. But that's not the same as going forward in a new life. So now she's wandering in the wilderness, she's trying to figure out, well, I could go back and take everybody out of their pain, all this chaos, with the full knowledge of that I actually have more potential than this. Or she could go forward, but there's no tangible proof that she can make a life. But she chooses her life, because it's not really living unless she chooses to be herself in that in the world. But when she makes herself visible, someone and even could be herself decides, that is worth protecting, valuing. And I call it the reorder or the rescue. And so the world reorder so that there's a place for her to be in her natural shining form. And amazing things is the kingdom discovers that it needed what the Virgin had to bring, either there's no unconditional love in the world, or there is a new talent that she brought that that has offered something new to the world. And it's better off to do a montage here. And that's the Virgin story.

Alex Ferrari 11:41
So that's interesting. It's a fascinating way of looking at it. Because as you were talking about it, I'm trying to go through movies in my head. I'm like, where is like, you know, my computer's like, like trying to figure out where you can place these. Because the hero's journey, there's 1000 of them. But, but this is interesting, but you said the word Joker, so this doesn't particularly have to be a feminine heroine. It could be male, because it seems like it's an again, an internal journey, it seems as you were explaining it, almost almost spiritual in nature, in the in the way that it, you're trying to find the authentic voice in you. So like, if you really, if you're Billy Elliot, all I want to do is dance. But the world around me doesn't allow me to do that. So then, so it sounds like okay, Billy Elliot, I get the Joker's have really dark version of that. So can we break that? Because Joker is a very popular movie, it was, I loved one of the best movies of that year. And arguably this last decade. Can we kind of break down Joker and it's kind of like go beat by beat a little bit with that. Is that are you? Are you able to do that? Do you remember Joker?

Kim Hudson 12:47
Well, God, I think I've written a blog on that. But you know, I was really hesitant to watch Joker, I can't watch horror it like gets into me, and I never can forget it. Never be alone again, kind of thing. But once I watched it, that is such a spectacularly well written, movie. Everything that's in the background is telling you that dependent world, you'd listen to what's happening on the radio and the interviews and they're all saying the dependent world is that if you do well, then you get your just reward. And therefore, people who are not doing well don't deserve to do well. Either. They didn't work hard enough, or they like so. Doing well means you deserve well, not doing well means you need to suffer. And that's, you know, so there's this guy, and he's trying really hard to smile for his mother. And that's his dependent world, right? He's trying to like, but it's, it's forced, because the world is not accepting Him. And so he goes inward, and he has this fantasy world. And he where this woman loves him. And that's a secret world, right? And it actually starts the two worlds collide, where he actually starts being a joker in his real world. And that's when everything starts to blow up. And the thing about Joker is that the secret world is not always as harmonious as I made it describe. It's his best way to make sense of the world he has around him. You know, it's his mind trying to help him to to navigate this world. Yeah, but it's um, it's harsh. But do you remember when he was sitting there talking with the counselor? And and Yeah, after when he's saying you know, they you're like he's being told you not getting meds anymore? And this and that. And he goes, do you notice you don't listen to me? And do you notice that you know, you're not doing any better off than I'm doing? Like the system is not helping either of us? Well, that's his gives up what kept him stuck moment. He's like, we don't have to conform and play our role in something that's actually not working for us. And so what would be other beats? Because they're not in the in the order. That's A great example of how things don't have to be

Alex Ferrari 15:02
Well, I'm in order. And then I think when I think if I remember correctly when he was on the subway for the first time, and he he, I think he shot those guys or something. He there's a point where he crosses the line, where that kind of point no return, but it's like, the flip side of that, like there's a thing that he does the now he has to you can't go back to where it was he can't there's no way he has to move forward on this journey.

Kim Hudson 15:30
Yeah, yeah. And when he chooses his light, it's kind of at our for a moment where he, he's with the measured and the other guy, and just beat the other guy to oblivion. And he's just like, You know what, I don't deserve this. And then he does. And that's another thing about these stories is that they circle back again. So it happens again, when they mock him on television, basically choose his light. He's like, you know, I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore. It's like, I deserve respect this whole model, where just because I have a learning disability, or I'm on a secret because my father is an important man. And he does and and I'm embarrassment, that does not make me deserve this kind of negative treatment. And he chooses his light, because I will not accept that. And even though at first he was actually just going to go out in a big bang, and make everybody sorry, he ends up choosing his own life over somebody.

Alex Ferrari 16:28
And isn't it interesting that his choice, and this is when you say the world reconfirms around him. And spoiler alert, please, everyone stop listening, or fast forward a few minutes, because I'm gonna talk a little bit about the ending. But when he does all the things he does on the Robert De Niro Tonight Show thing. Yeah. And he basically causes a riot. And the entire world is also like, yeah, we feel like you too. And all of a sudden, it all just literally the world reforms around him. And he becomes this reader icon of this movement, where he was truly just trying to do it for himself. But he realizes that, oh, I'm not alone. There's a lot of more messages in the bottle, if you will, out there.

Kim Hudson 17:18
Right, which is his first moment of having a secret world where he's actually among friends. But it's like the big world. Right? And he even says in his interview, that I wasn't trying to save the world. I don't have some big mission here. I do. I look like a guy who's got a plan. I'm just actually being myself, right? I'm just trying to be real here. And that turned out to be a guy in a joker costume. I'm gonna take control of this.

Alex Ferrari 17:47
And it's so interesting, because talking about you know, feminine energy and spirituality and sexual awakening, you don't think Joker, but because which is a fairly testosterone. I mean, there's a lot of testosterone in that movie, but he has a he has a feminine energy to him. He's he's really struggling. He's, he's really just trying to figure things out emotional Areum when Jesus is the Joker, I mean, very emotional. Like he is. So it's a fascinating study of story structure. Looking at that, because we'll talk about some other examples. But Joker is a fascinating one. Because it is you know, it's something you can think about.

Kim Hudson 18:29
Yeah, one day, I was listening to the whole story of frozen, talking about same storyline, but very different feel to it. Where the Woman Yeah, but you think about it, what is it Elsa? That she has a power, and she's told that it's evil, and she has to keep it in. And then she decides, you know what, I'm gonna let it go. If you listen to the song, let it go. And sort of play the soundtrack or the track for children in your mind.

Alex Ferrari 19:00
I have children.

Kim Hudson 19:03
Yeah, million times. But think about Joker, the movie Joker, and then let it go the song. You put those two together and it's quite phenomenal. It the words speak to what he's trying to say in that movie. Wow. It's really fun.

Alex Ferrari 19:18
That's pretty trippy. i Everyone, please let us know what you think if you could try to listen to let it let it go. While you're watching Joker and see how it connects. It's like was it watching Led Zeppelin with the Wizard of Oz and everything clicks on? Yeah, exactly. It's like the Dark Side of the Moon. That's hilarious. Now um, can you can you talk about because on the hero's journey, there are the archetypes the wizard the trickster? What are those in this journey?

Kim Hudson 19:52
So I have this theory that there's basically three big archetypal journeys that we all have the potential to Go on in our life, I'm, I think in my life a well lived journey, if my life will be a will, well, a journey, I'll go through all three of them. And we actually can do them in a masculine and a feminine way. So the first is your relationship to self. And the hero is I, I, in relation to my fear of life, I can conquer it, and I can go out and be active in the world. So that's my relationship to self in a masculine way. And then in a feminine way is I learned how to turn the camera inwards, and how to bring something authentic about myself into a physical form, almost like alchemy. So those are both a relationship to self. The next is, how do I cross the distance? The distance between me and somebody who is not me? And that's that relationship to another person? And how do I maintain myself and still respect somebody who's different from me, and that would be the warrior king in the mother goddess. And then the last one is this ultimate recognition that we are a part of a cosmos of a bigger picture. And for the masculine that would be the mentor, you know, the philanthropist, this idea that I know, I'm going to die, and I'm going to pass on my knowledge so that there's a benefit from generation to generation. So it's, it's this very concrete recognition that life is finite. And then the feminine side, it's the Crone, it's the sense that, that life is all about connection. And we're about to make a connection into the whole cosmos. So while you're still on the planet, you start to recognize that you can see the connections that other people might be missing and throw like a trickster, you go in there, and you mess with their lives a little bit, just to get them on the track. Because you know, that everything's connected. And their connection to themselves is fundamental to everything else, unfolding the way it's meant to.

Alex Ferrari 21:59
I'm gonna get a little deep here for a second, because as you were talking about that was very interesting, because at the beginning of my career, I went out to conquer, and I went out to go direct, and I make movies and work hard and, and I worked my ass off for 20 odd years in the film industry, working in post production and directing movies and commercials and music videos and things like that. And it was very outward hero's journey was very out must conquer, conquer, conquer, conquer. But then, which is was interesting, I looked inward. When I was unhappy, I was lost for a little while, I opened up an olive oil company, a lot of people who listen to the show understand, that's a whole other story. So I got a little lost. And then I looked inward. And when I looked inward, I said, Hmm, I need to bring up my authentic self, and help the world. And that's when I launched the show. The indie film, hustle shows first and then the bulletproof screenwriting afterwards. But I launched that show. And by being my authentic self, very much like the Joker, not trying to do anything other than just try to help, whoever listened, it grew into where we are today. And is where I found my true happiness, even though I still enjoy going out and directing and the external. My true happiness is here, talking to you sharing information. That's a completely inward spiritual, almost look inside of what I'm doing. Does that make sense in the journey for you?

Kim Hudson 23:28
Absolutely. Yeah. And, and I find that there's two fundamentally different understandings of power. And you you touched on them there. When you're in the Hero mode, it's to assert your will even against resistance. That means hard work long hours, overcoming obstacles, but in a virtual world. Power comes from knowing yourself, and then bringing that self into life, and then supporting others in doing the same. And it's, it's extremely powerful.

Alex Ferrari 23:58
Oh, my God, it's been I mean, it's so powerful, in fact, that in the in the time period where I was doing the external hero's journey, let's say, I would have killed to have access to the people that I get access to now who reach out to me now. It's fascinating. I have Oscar winners, and I have legends and people in the film industry who want to be on my show. And I'm like, and I sit back sometimes, like, isn't this interesting? How this is, this whole story is turned its head, if you would have told me 1015 years ago, this wouldn't be the way you know, it I would be able to do things in is the key is not out. It's in and again, when I was saying earlier, the out is a very young man's energy. It's the warrior in us we need to go out and conquer. And I forgot there's four stages of development. The Warrior the teacher, forgot the four but there's, there's these four archetypes that someone's someone much more intelligent than that. coming out, says MATT Yeah, sent said these four things. And I was like, Oh, that's so true. Because when you're young, you're a warrior, you go out to try to conquer to, to show off physicality. But as the years go on, the physicality starts to go and you start to go inward and you want to become the teacher or the mentor. In other things, there's a couple other the other two stages. But it's so true. But it's so powerful that now by going inward coming out, being authentic and trying to help others, is when all of the things that I was kind of looking for in the warrior journey is now literally handed to me on a plate where I can make relations. It's interesting. It's just fascinating. Hopefully, people listening, this is a little bit more of a philosophical, spiritual, and screenwriting conversation. But it's so true. Any good reason why the hero's journey connects with so many people. It is a metaphor for life, we all go through hero's journey at one point or another.

Kim Hudson 25:55
Absolutely, we need to do both. Like I am never going to say that the virgins promises a better story than the hero's journey. It's, you know, in life, we need to do both. Like there are things to be afraid of, we do need to like set a goal plan to not fall into every pitfall that you know, life is offering. And you have to like you have to save for a rainy day all these things that that give us comfort and safety.

Alex Ferrari 26:23
And not everything. No, it's not everything. You're right. And again, as you get older, you realize that that the hero's journey is not everything in this inward journey is the journey that is much more powerful, much more powerful, because it's tapping in

Kim Hudson 26:39
And yet, yeah. And yet, so underrecognized people often think, Oh, I have to have a plan, I have to like I'll never have any power. And because this is such a, almost a power of humility. In other words, by the more you're, you're doing an offering what you truly love, it's contagious. And it draws people into you that want similar things or that can feel inspired by you. And then you get inspired back, it always gives these unexpected gifts.

Alex Ferrari 27:12
It's so interesting, because I a lot of screenwriters asked me, you know, what do I do to to make it into business? What do I like? What's the secret sauce, and I go, you are, if you can tap into your authentic self, and speak authentically through your writing, there is nobody in the world that could compete with you, because no one can be you. And if you study, and I've had the pleasure of talking to many of these, these really great writers, they're all authentic to who they are Tarantino is authentic to himself, Nolan is authentic to himself. Edgar Wright is authentic to himself, Eric Roth is they're very authentic to their, where it's coming from. And that's something so hard to grasp when you're younger, when you're starting out. They're like, No, no, I have to try to be someone else. That's successful. Michael, No, the thing that makes you successful is being you. And it's scary and terrifying to be you in the in the world as the Joker, as the Joker showed us.

Kim Hudson 28:15
Yeah, yeah. You know, one of the things the screenwriting advice that it really bothers me is that you need to have constant crisis that you have to have ever bigger obstacles to overcome. And people think that it's not an interesting story, if you're not constantly showing this, this fear. And really, this inward story is the quest for love. And love is not always you euphoria you like there's heartbreak, and there's all these things, but you fall in deeper into them. These are not obstacles to overcome, except for things that you need to explore. You know, like, you don't fight back and push away, you actually go, Okay, I'm curious about that. And, and the screen should spend time looking at a person's face and figuring out, you know, are they are they wandering in the wilderness? Are they giving up the old belief making room for something new, you know, like, these things are the challenge and we want to see people feeling joy and and finding their moment. And, you know, it's like about a boy when he stands on the stage and, you know, Little Miss Sunshine when the whole family gets up there because Gladys, I think yesterday, she wants to do a strip song. There's, you know, it's so good. It's and it has nothing to do with conquering some sort of, you know, or achieving a goal. It's about being in the moment and feeling passion and standing up for something.

Alex Ferrari 29:48
Well, it's a story is about conflict, but it doesn't have to be external conflict, it could be internal conflict, internal journey that has to go through and there is, I mean, so if we analyze Is it I know what you were saying like you have to have conflict all the time. Well, interesting situations happen when there is a barrier to break through. So if you don't have a barrier to break through, and that could be an internal barrier, it absolutely could be an internal barrier, we look at Little Miss Sunshine. As such a great movie I have to watch that, again, is actually I might, I talked about, I was talking about my first kind of watch live as such, I don't remember it as well as I remember the ending. Oh, good. But yeah, but that was there was some external conflict there, if I remember correctly, but it was truly about her and her journey to, to express who she truly was as insane as that.

Kim Hudson 30:40
And also, it was about the dad, who had this belief that he had to be conquering the outside world. And when he was finally authentic, in his love for his daughter, he was humanized, he brought his whole family together. And that turned out to be way more important than anything else he was trying to do.

Alex Ferrari 31:00
Which is the moral of that story is, is that when you are able to touch the inner world, and be authentic to yourself, I mean, it's funny, because I always tell this joke is like, as you get older, you give less of a crap about what other people think, like, when you're younger, you were like, Oh, my God, what is? What is anyone gonna think? Like, my daughters are terrified of what I do in public. And I'm like, Oh, that's so much fun. So I try to embarrass them as much as possible. But as you get older, you know, when you get to the 70s 80s, and you see the old man without a shirt on, in his flip flops, and his long and his underwear going out to get the get the mail, and he doesn't care at all. That's the other extreme of that scenario. He is arguably very authentic to who he is. Yes, right.

Kim Hudson 31:48
Wrong. And he's really what really matters.

Alex Ferrari 31:52
In his world, he his mask is gone. He I mean, this is an extreme version, but his mask is gone. And, and you know, all the stuff that we put on like the suits or the armor, if you will, to go out He is literally out there.

Kim Hudson 32:10
Yeah, there's no and why world? He's, yeah, in my role, he's a chrome. He's the one that's like showing us that really, does that matter. And, you know, like, really, you know, think about what you're thinking matters so much. And know that you could just be free and everything is connected.

Alex Ferrari 32:28
So there's, there's certain characters like I know you mentioned in your book like The whore and the verb, like the app, the virgin virgin and the femme fatale How can you like when I was thinking of like Pretty Woman is pretty woman an example this? Is their versions of that in Pretty Woman? Or is it very similar to just a hero's journey?

Kim Hudson 32:50
Oh, I think pretty woman is is a very much a virgin story. Okay. She she believes she's only worthy of bones. And then through this sexual experience, she discovers that she has a talent for business. And, and she's interested in something and she wants more for herself butterfly. So it's, to me it's absolutely a virgin story. And really, the only the shadow side of the Virgin is when she herself becomes disconnected from her value. That's, that's what the horror is basically, where she has lost her sense that she is intrinsically worthy of love. And so then she doesn't take care of herself in the world. And it's, it's, again, it's an internal mentality that that reflects, in the way she's presenting herself. And sometimes, it's because the environment has so consistently shown she's of no value that it sinks in. And that disconnection needs to be reversed and turned into reconnection. Well, I was just gonna say it's the same for the femme Patel, in that, if that's the, that's the second journey of the feminine, where she needs to cross the distance between herself and another person. And she's lost herself. She's manipulating another person in order to have power in the world. Whereas she hasn't recognized that she has her own type of power, and that she needs to bring that into your consciousness. And then she can exist in the world.

Alex Ferrari 34:31
So like a fatal attraction. So like a fatal attraction, let's say, or basic instinct. Those two characters don't realize that there used femininity, or Double Indemnity or duress to kill or any of these, these kinds of these kinds of characters who are using manipulation, using their sexuality using other things to manipulate people because they have not again gone inward, to understand and something happened to them and try elderhood something happened to them in the world, that that that story, that's the narrative that they've built up to, like, I've got to be this way to survive in the world is that a kind of

Kim Hudson 35:09
And it's, and what it's done is that it's caused them to disconnect from the fact that they actually are powerful, that they have their own, you know, their own sense of love for themselves. And that could be enough. And that's what the story has to do is not get them to, like, get some survival power, it's more like, they need some love power, like they need to bring that back to themselves. And then they actually can cross from being the shadow side of the feminine to the light side of the feminine.

Alex Ferrari 35:41
It's really It's, I mean, I feel like this conversation is a therapy session for everyone listening because it's like, really, you started to like, you're like, we're doing inner work today, guys. We're doing some inner work. People are gonna walk out of this listening to this, Jesus, man, I gotta, I gotta touch my authentic self, I gotta go inward. I gotta, I gotta go into that cave inside of me and fight the dragon to get through to get to the treasure to get it out into the world.

Kim Hudson 36:09
Yes, you know, my workshops people write to me, and they say later, like, you know, I, they don't have, they say they don't have writer's block anymore. Because between the hero and the journey, there's always some structure to help them move forward. But the biggest thing is, they recognize it in their life. They'll suddenly go, Oh, my God, I'm wandering in the wilderness. I have people really change their lives. Like, and write to me. I was like, Okay, well, that's on you.

Alex Ferrari 36:36
I'm not just talking about movies here. I'm just about movies and stories. That's it, if you I'm not a therapist, but you know, a lot of the things that we're talking about is, I mean, a good story is an analogy for life. And, and this inner story, which is why I so find this this concept, so fascinating. I mean, I've done 800 episodes, on both of my shows over 800 episodes. And I've never had this conversation with every single great story guru screenwriter, you can imagine. No one's ever had never come up, never approached story in this way before. And it's that's what's so fascinating about this conversation for me, because it is something that's just not talked about, it is not talked about it is not it is not put out into the screenwriting universe. It is it's, you know, the hero's journey. We're good. Chris and Joseph Campbell have done a fantastic job. Right, we are between Star Wars and with Joseph Campbell what Chris Vogler did. I mean, the hero's journey is everywhere. And I saved the cat and all this stuff, but this inner journey is interesting. What other movies that can you come up with? That are great examples, because I want the audience to really kind of have reference points.

Kim Hudson 37:53
Okay, so JoJo rabbit that's got the obvious secret world in it, and he's fighting. He's trying to conform to the Nazi ideal and it's just eventually not working for him, he changes his clothing we can we can see that stress is the part where he gets back to his mother and family. So that's one coda, you know, I that was just fabulous. Her dependent world is like, her non hearing family needs her. And yet it's contrary to what she needs to do for herself. So that was a great one. Oh, good luck to you, Leo grants. Did you see that one? I did not see that one. on Netflix. It's it's new. And it's Emma Thompson, who hires a male prostitute to help her however, you know, with an awakening, it's really good. And it does follow the beats their secret world is in that hotel room. The wife where she her secret world is that she's a ghost writer for her husband. And the coming the clashing of the two worlds is at the very beginning where she has to be the dutiful wife when she her work is actually getting the Nobel Prize. And that causes this. You know, it's a fabulous, fabulous story. There's so many Brittany runs a marathon ladybirds and education.

Alex Ferrari 39:15
Just want you said black swan as well.

Kim Hudson 39:18
Black Swan definitely carry. There's one called love, honor and obey which I there's another one that I never watched Elliott group at brain dead said watch this. And I was like, okay, and I watched like button. It's about it's about a home invasion. And, and this couple that gets brutalized. But anyway, I've watched it for five minutes, and I turned it off. And then I was like, I am a professional. So I turned it back on

Alex Ferrari 39:44
There's a story. As a director, there's lights that come on.

Kim Hudson 39:48
Yeah. Yes. And I tell you, it's a black. It's sort of a black comedy and, and it's about a woman who is forced to recognize what she's accepting from her husband. I don't want give away too much, but it is a fantastic movie.

Alex Ferrari 40:03
Sleeping with the Enemy remember the sleeping with the enemy?

Kim Hudson 40:07
Which was a long time ago. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 40:11
It just came to my head is like maybe that's one as well.

Kim Hudson 40:15
Yeah. Well, I mean, it doesn't make sense that there's a lot of inner work beliefs that need to be let go to get away. Right, that kind of thing. Virgin Suicides that's another one where the the mother has been so oppressive that they can't move forward. The shape of water is a great one. Yeah, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 40:39
Fascinating that there's so many. There's so many examples. Like you're saying that's lala land. Oh, god. Yeah. Lala Land as well. Yeah.

Kim Hudson 40:49
Trying to get her inner talent into the world.

Alex Ferrari 40:51
It's so. So there's been so many examples that have been under our nose, but no one's really ever called it out. Before like, Yeah, this is yeah, this is the story, guys.

Kim Hudson 41:01
Yes, yeah, the pattern hasn't been described. But people, you see the theory of archetypes is that it's in our unconscious, that it's there for us to help navigate through life. And Joseph Campbell made one visible. So it's a lot more you can get to it. And I made another one visible. So you know, and there's in my mind, there's four more. So I'm working on those.

Alex Ferrari 41:23
Or you're working on the other? You're working on the other ones? Yeah, yeah.

Kim Hudson 41:27
My next one will be the how to cross the distance between you and somebody who has taught you. The archetypes of marriage really?

Alex Ferrari 41:37
Oh, yeah. I have been married for a long time I understand. There's, there's something that the title of your book mentioned sexual awakenings. And this is something I just wanted to kind of touch on. Because those films, sometimes they're done perfectly and really well. But sometimes they're not. They're approached at, you know, there's a male energy or, or, you know, it's, it's not done correctly. So can you give me an example of a good one, and a bad one, and the reason why it's good, and the reason why it's bad if you can?

Kim Hudson 42:14
Well, the 40 year old virgin, actually is a great example of delayed and yeah, and then that final moment of awakening, it's and it's it actually follows all the beads. Another one that I've always loved as new Waterford girl, it's a Canadian film. And, yeah, she lives in a small town in Nova Scotia where you're very limited, and you should always stay on the island and she wants to be an artist. So She fakes a pregnancy, she notices that pregnant girls get sent away. And so she fakes a pregnancy. And it's about her sexual awakening and her talent awakening and the whole community going crazy. It's a really funny, really good movie. Yeah, so once we're Brokeback Mountain, another one where it's, you know, secret world and their clash and what society expects from you and, and never being able to overcome it. It's a very beautifully done sexual awakening. You know, I don't really pay attention to the ones that are done really badly. It's like porn to me.

Alex Ferrari 43:30
So porn, not a good example.

Kim Hudson 43:32
You know what I would actually say there's, there's female porn and there's male porn, apparently. And male porn is just really about how can I get some excitement? Like it's just goal oriented? Sure. Which is, is not the same as a sexual awakening to me and sexual awakening is this recognition that we have the power within us for great joy?

Alex Ferrari 43:54
That's the Yeah, we'll leave it there. But I'm just trying to think of in my head of like, bad ones, and I'm like, if they're bad, they're generally sophomore. Sophomore. If it's done incorrectly, that's basically so if you see softcore porn, that's probably not the

Kim Hudson 44:15
Right it's not a virgins journey. But I but I liked they probably been male gaze do.

Alex Ferrari 44:19
Exactly. But I'd like I like that you use a 40 year old virgin because that's a great example of a sexual awakening in a very obviously comedic way. But it was, it was a 40 year old virgin and all that stuff. That's to happen. And Judd Apatow does have has he touches on it even in his comedies. He touches on inner stuff funny people and a couple of his other films. Touch on the inner Yeah, in this and his work I've noticed even while they're being silly. Yeah, yeah. So you choosing her light I I saw that term in the book, what does that mean? Choosing the light choosing her light.

Kim Hudson 45:06
You know, this is saying that it doesn't really matter until it changes within her own heart. So a person like Janis Joplin, you can have all of the glory. But until you actually decide that you are intrinsically valuable, and that you have the right to take up some space in the world and shine your light, you know, the, it doesn't really affect your happiness. And it's, it's starts with the individual person, you need to find your happiness and find your connection. And then like a drop of water, it starts to spread out to other people. So that beak chooses her light shows that it's, it's not about other people saying, Oh, wow, you're amazing. It's about you deciding that you are in value, and really getting that sense of self esteem.

Alex Ferrari 45:56
So that's interesting, because in, in Hollywood, you're surrounded by people going, you're great. You're beautiful, you're great. And yet, we've all seen examples of people who were giant stars, who either sabotage themselves or god forbid, you know, took their life and they just couldn't choose their light that couldn't allow it to for whatever reason, it's some pre built glass ceiling that they put in their heads. Like, I'm not worth this. You know, I mean, John Belushi comes to mind, you know, who number one album, number one show, number one movie in the world? And he was depressed, his auto.

Kim Hudson 46:40
Right! Right. And the guy that was in Mork and Mindy,

Alex Ferrari 46:43
Oh, well, Robin Williams, Robert Robin Williams. I mean, he, he had an illness. So there was a mental, there was a degenerative degenerative thing that happened to his brain that caused him to do that. But But yeah, but many of these, you know, and we've seen it, I mean, people.

Kim Hudson 47:00
So you know, what you were saying there is actually why that beat gives up what kept her stuck, is so important. Because if you don't give up the old belief that told you, you had to conform to that dependent world, then you have this constant dissidents that you're behaving in a way that's not in alignment with one of your, your beliefs. And that will always throw you off track, you'll always try and go back to be in alignment with that. So the Virgin's journey notes that you have to have a moment where you consciously reflect and say, you know, what, I don't actually still have to believe that in might have served me in the past. But now's the time to cue the music, let it go.

Alex Ferrari 47:45
I think, for us it's so true, because there are those limiting beliefs that we all live in now we're getting into the psychology and the youngin aspect of this, of this, of this journey. But if you are told You're not worth it, you're not that you could be the most beautiful human being on the planet. gorgeous, talented. And we've seen these people, we've seen these people self destruct in front of our eyes. And in Nicole Smith, I remember I mean, she had everything. And she, she did not feel worthy of this fame and accurate at that. She just couldn't deal with it. And I mean, whatever happened happened to her, of course. And Marilyn and woman rose a little different. Yeah. But, but there's just like, there's,

Kim Hudson 48:35
There was an element

Alex Ferrari 48:37
She was Norma Jean. She was still she in her head. She was Norma Jean. She wasn't Marilyn Monroe. And to live up I can't even imagine trying to live up to being Marilyn Monroe when she was. I mean, she was she was put up there as the perfection of the female species, I mean, at the time, right? Right, right, who can live who can live with that kind of pressure. So it too, you can break through those own limiting beliefs, or stories that you're telling yourself, you doesn't matter what kind of success you have. If you can't find that light within you, you can't go forward.

Kim Hudson 49:17
Exactly. And you know, people try and tell the story about becoming your authentic self. And they just present obstacles. And then a light went on, and suddenly they were themselves right and it doesn't read through on the screen. We'd never really break it down and understand that there's a lot of steps. You know, like that you're facing the unknown, you have to cocoon for that. You can't it's too vulnerable to face criticism and you and you have to recognize what your your old belief was so that you can let it go. You have to consciously choose for yourself, that you're choosing your light. It doesn't matter if the rest of the world sees you as bright. You know, like there's all these steps to writing that inner journey that would tend to kind of without a structure, just gloss over it. And then suddenly, she got better.

Alex Ferrari 50:08
She's like, boom, one day, she just found her light. And it's done. And so it's all Yeah, it's there has to be scenes that they are consciously figuring that out in one way, shape, or form. And that's interesting. It's an interesting way to write it is make it interesting when you see that, because it's inner work. So it's hard to put that on the screen. So there has to be yes. How would you? How would you so give me an example?

Kim Hudson 50:31
I don't know if you've ever did you receive ever after? Of course. Yeah. Have you got kids? Yeah. So there's this moment where she's been to the ball, and everything's blown up. And she's just like, okay, it is what it is. I'm just going to work hard again. And she's talking to her stepmother. And she says, was there ever a moment that you felt love for me because you're the only mother I've ever known. And her stepmother says, hook it up, I feel love for a pebble in my shoe. And then see, Drew Barrymore's just okay. I accept that. I've been trying to find love from somebody who will never love me. And, and just in a look, she gives up what was keeping her stuck. She's She boldly asked the question, she got the answer, and she accepts it. And so a whole beat done in just a look.

Alex Ferrari 51:24
That's really interesting. That's really you're absolutely right. How many times have you gone to your parents looking for something or gone to a spouse or, or a girlfriend or boyfriend looking for something that they're just not going to give you ever? Yeah. And, and then you go, Oh, okay. I get it. Now. I need to move on. It's okay. Now. Thank you for letting me off the hook.

Kim Hudson 51:48
Exactly.

Alex Ferrari 51:49
Another movie came to mind and chanted. Oh, yeah, that one is that that's a if you start looking at that journey, it's very inward, like at first she's a cartoon princess, and has to stick with in the world of being a princess. And slowly, she starts to realize no, I'm, I'm worth it. I'm not just I'm, I'm a human being and I want to go do this. And I want to go to that. And she comes, she awakens within herself.

Kim Hudson 52:16
I have a full range of feelings. And I want all of that authenticity to be in the world. Yeah. And boy, the aim. Yeah. She just plays it so deeply. You know, somebody could have played that very sufficiently superficially. But she got the whole version, you know. And if the actor gets it in their heart, it just flashes onto the screen. It's really quite something.

Alex Ferrari 52:41
She should have gotten an Oscar for that performance. She was so good. And that she's, she's amazing actress, but that she is. She's perfect. Now tell me about your where can people find your book and the work that you're doing?

Kim Hudson 52:57
It's on Amazon, Amazon, both all kinds. It just recently got released? I think so. That's nice. Yeah, that's true. Michael, we see productions, and

Alex Ferrari 53:12
Your website and find you and your story

Kim Hudson 53:15
Storyarchetypes.com is where my website is.

Alex Ferrari 53:20
Good URL. That's a good URL to have. And I'm gonna ask you a few questions. I asked all of my guests. What advice would you give a screenwriter trying to break into the business today?

Kim Hudson 53:29
We've been talking about be authentic.

Alex Ferrari 53:36
Yeah. Be authentic. Embrace your light, is what you're saying. Now what lesson took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Kim Hudson 53:52
Let it go. Have a friend who's a psychic who says she has never met somebody who hangs on to their pain so long? afraid this is my life lesson. Fair enough, gives up what kept her stuck.

Alex Ferrari 54:08
And three of your favorite films of all time.

Kim Hudson 54:11
Oh, okay. shockula, enchanted. And I'm gonna have to say Joker, whoa, parasite. They're both amazing. They're all virgin stories.

Alex Ferrari 54:24
What an amazing collection of films. Great, great collection. It has been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for putting this out in the world. And I'm gonna do my darndest to get this information out to the screenwriting public because it's something that's just not talked about enough. And I think it's a new way to approach story. And one last question. Can you have the hero journey and the virgins journey overlap each other in the same story?

Kim Hudson 54:55
Yes. As a matter of fact, it's not a person It's an energy and that energy they can, the hero or the Virgin energy can pass through the same person. But if you want an example, just if you were trying to like screenwriting figure out, how do I put the two together and have the stories work, frozen, the two characters Anna and Elsa, and as a hero, Alice's a virgin, and they just you've watched them connect with each other, though, there are stages there, the rescue greet order. That's a place where the hero crosses over with the Virgin story.

Alex Ferrari 55:34
So is does it have to be two characters? Or can this be in the one can this be in one character? And the two both?

Kim Hudson 55:41
It can be both. Yeah. So there's tons where, where the well, ever after she saves herself, the original writing of the pretty woman apparently she saved yourself in the end. And then he came back. They rewrote that. But there's lots. Yeah. So you definitely in and we'll know this in our own lives, that you can be the hero in your own life. And you definitely need to be in charge of your own versions journey.

Alex Ferrari 56:13
We will leave it at that. Kim, thank you so much for being on the show. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you and thank you again for the work that you're doing. Appreciate you.

Kim Hudson 56:21
You're welcome. Thanks for having me. This is lovely.

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IFH 708: Writing the INSANE World of Machette with Alvaro Rodriguez

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Alex Ferrari 0:18
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:56
Joining me tonight is Alvaro Rodriguez. Alvaro is a screenwriter who is currently working on season two of from dusk till dawn the series. His career in film actually began when he began riffing on a Spanish guitar for the heroes musical theme and his cousin Robert Rodriguez debut film airmail Yachi, which began a collaboration that has lasted over two decades. Alvaro, how are you sir?

Alvaro Rodriguez 2:01
I'm doing great. How are you?

Dave Bullis 2:04
Pretty good. So the weather in PA has gotten a lot better over the past few days.

Alvaro Rodriguez 2:08
That's good st here in Austin.

Dave Bullis 2:10
Oh, nice. You know, I actually want to talk to you about Austin, before I get to that. So could you give us a little more detail about your background? You know, and how, you know, every how you got started in the film business?

Alvaro Rodriguez 2:23
Sure. Well, you know, I grew up with a love for movies. And I grew up with a love for reading, writing, and always wanted to be a novelist. And would, you know, say, Well, I know, it's a hard road to try to to do. And, you know, I probably end up being a teacher, which I was for a time. But I want to, you know, keep writing. But I had this cousin Robert, who, you know, when I first remember spending any time with him, we were kids at my grandmother's house and in South Texas sitting in the back of a truck. And he was talking about this new movie that had just come out, which she hadn't seen yet, but seemed to know everything about how the director had done this shot and how this was done, and all that stuff. And my job was just on the floor, but out of the truck, because I realized I finally found someone who loved movies, baby boy. And that movie was called The Escape from New York, John Carpenter's. The early 80s. And, and it was just like, you know, a lighted off in my head, I was probably in the fifth grade or so. And I started to write my first little scripts, and written a parody of the TV show Dallas. And just thought, you know, this is great, I'm gonna write scripts, Robert will direct them and the Sister Angela, his older sister, my older cousin, she'll start and then she wanted to be an actress. And it actually did happen. And she, she became an actor, she was in several movies, and including a movie that really well called shorts. So it was it was amazing. It was amazing to see that all finally kind of come come through. But and then, you know, later on, I didn't use it for his first show or anything, like you mentioned. And but after that, we started collaborating on a script together, which never got made cultural death was part which we wrote for an actress that Robert had met, and thought was going to be the next big thing. And she was Salma Hayek and ever since then, I just, you know, was writing on different projects with him, you know, reading themes or dialogue or, or ideas for the movies, like for rooms and road racers, and then later plants, and then the roof shorts and machete together.

Dave Bullis 4:38
So and, you know, where did it you know, well, actually, you know, I'll get to that later from Gustl. Don, because I don't want to get too far ahead. But I mean, that's absolutely amazing, you know, no, you know that you're able to collaborate with a family member. And it was so amazing. He's able to open all these doors for you. And you know, that that mean, you know, and that's, you know, a couple of things I want to touch on. So there's just Really quickly, are you at the South by Southwest festival right now?

Alvaro Rodriguez 5:03
I am did yeah, we're shooting shooting my episode protested on second season second episode right now. And this happened to coincide with Southwest festival. So then able to go and do some screenings and and, you know, networking and stuff like that it's been fantastic.

Dave Bullis 5:25
So are you filming this series in Austin?

Alvaro Rodriguez 5:28
Yeah, the entire show shoots in and around Austin. Robert has his own studio troublemaking Studios, where he shot many of the films. And here in Austin, which is right next to Austin Studios, where we also have set and we're shooting in and around town and different locations. Machete was shot entirely here in Austin to on those on those stages, and then around town. So it's amazing. It's amazing to be able to have that kind of those kind of facilities and just a great crew, break people that that, you know, Robert uses, again, and again, on all these different projects. So it makes our TV show look like a like a big feature project.

Dave Bullis 6:19
That's amazing. We would work with the same crew and everything over and over. You know, that is a great benefit. And also, it's great that, you know, he has a studio right there in Austin. You know, the reason I asked where you're shooting was because, you know, with all these film tax credits, and that there's, you know, the debate about you know, do they work? Do they not work? You know, I know, sometimes you get thrown through a loop, you know, we know, like Season One of Banshee was filmed in North South or North Carolina. And season two was actually filming here in Pennsylvania.

Alvaro Rodriguez 6:46
Yeah, probably Austin is Austin has really become over the last couple of decades. Quite a film and television production. You know, this new series on ABC American crime takes place in the best of California that was shot entirely in Austin. Hopefully, they'll be back for season two. And, you know, it's it's really amazing that they're in Austin, you know, it just has developed a really strong reputation for film and television. A lot of people want to be here. We have guys in our, in our cast that are, you know, bought license here. And you know, are and I've heard same stories from other other crew members on other projects that they've worked on. And from other people that, you know, awesome is a place where, you know, actors want to come work there. And because they have such a good time in the city and city is very open to, to all those kinds of things to great creative, creative Nexus here in Austin.

Dave Bullis 7:49
Yeah, I've always heard that. And I've always heard that slogan, Keep Austin weird.

Alvaro Rodriguez 7:53
Yeah. So we're doing our part, we're doing our part to keep it weird.

Dave Bullis 8:01
So what's one of the coolest things that you have seen thus far at the South by Southwest festival?

Alvaro Rodriguez 8:07
Well, last night, I went to a screening that was touted as a 30th I think the 31st anniversary screening, the road warrior with George Miller, director in attendance. And we got to see kind of a sneak after the film of the new Fury Road, the new Mad Max film, we got to see about seven or eight minutes of that. And then a special trailer that was just cut for South by Southwest and Warner Brothers spec a brand new prints of the film. So it just looks absolutely amazing. And of course road warriors such a huge influence on both Robert and myself. And Robert actually got to, to do a, an episode of his series on the overlay called the director's chair for his interviews, different directors. He just aired the latest one a week or so ago with Francis Ford Coppola. And he got to film an episode with George Miller. And, you know, it's just it's just amazing to see, to see something like that in 35 millimeter, I think they said is the only film at South by Southwest that was reading the 35 millimeter on the big screen in in a beautiful theater downtown Austin, the Paramount which is celebrating its 100th anniversary this year. So it's just like, you know, that's, it's a really amazing account of priceless experience to see something like that.

Dave Bullis 9:37
I mean, I know you can't go into detail, but you know, um, you know, what did you think of a couple of minutes of the new, the new Mad Max, you're allowed to say?

Alvaro Rodriguez 9:46
It was amazing. It was really amazing. I mean, it was such a, it was it was such a tease. It was it was like please give us more please give us more.

Alex Ferrari 9:59
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Alvaro Rodriguez 10:09
You know, because it just, it looks beautiful. And I'm Hardy, Tom Hardy, who plays Mad Max with tastic show he's thrown the entire cast. It just has. It looks like a road warrior, you know, turn it up to 11. And you know Thunderdome everything and blast, that's just, I can't wait to see it opens may 15. And it just looks absolutely amazing for fans of that, that kind of film. I can't imagine that anybody's really going to be disappointed. It just didn't look. Looks stellar. I couldn't wait to see it after that case of it last night.

Dave Bullis 10:48
And that's good to hear coming from Nashville fan of the original as well. You know, because, you know, what the, you know, the sort of the trends you see now in film is, you know, there's a lot of remakes. There's a lot of you know, old properties established properties that are getting, you know, made updated, like, you know, a minute where even TV shows, but you know, it's good that there are, you know, personally like 21 Jump Street, I thought that was hilarious. Like, you know what, I mean, I went in there with almost no expectations. And I came out and I said, Wow, that was actually pretty damn good.

Alvaro Rodriguez 11:21
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that's the thing, you know, the remakes and reboots, and reimagining is often get, you know, short shrift, and people say, you know, there's been more well, you know, just because of con voters may True Grit doesn't erase the first film, you know, doesn't erase the original. And a lot of things, you know, writing and entertainment and stories are, it's such a, it's already inherently a system of recycling, you know, that this system of, of taking something old, and giving it a new spin and sunlight. And obviously, you can fall on that as a crutch, but I think we need to have talent. And, and this will sort of, like, make something better, or make something with your own touch. And you have someone like George Miller, who's, you know, at the helm of, of taking Mad Max and doing the reimagining or reboot, or whatever you want to call it. That, you know, you're in the hands of a master. And, and there are so many, you know, it's a whole new generation who weren't able to experience vote order, the first time it came out, and the context in which it came out, you know, in the context in which it came out, it was like this, you know, this post apocalyptic future that we seem to be so close to now. And that's one of the things that, that makes, I think, the movie resonant, and the original again, and giving, giving new ideas for, for what the reboot is going to be, you know, so I have, you know, I don't have the same sort of negative outlook on those kinds of things, I guess, you know, some, some people call things complete che and I say, No, it's not a cliche, it's a universal truth. Just go with that.

Dave Bullis 13:16
Yeah, you know, and I agree with you, bro. You know, sometimes what I seem to see from even my friends is, there's two kinds of attitudes they have, either they go like, they either say, like, we see something like, you know, like a big budget blockbuster, whether it's a superhero movie, or you know, transformers, what have you. They'll say like, you know, if they didn't like it, they'll say, Oh, well, you know, what, what did you expect? They know that blah, blah, blah, you know, or the other one is, it's overrated, or, you know, it's this or that. I mean, it just seems to be like, if they like when someone does try something new. They're sort of like, you know, you do something new. It's almost like there's a trend, you know, in movie reviewers have been like, Oh, my God, why were they doing this? And then, you know, that's where you can say, like, hey, we tried to do something new, and nobody wants to go see it.

Alvaro Rodriguez 14:02
That's true. And there's this thing, you know, and Dessel Don is reimagining as a television series, the reimagining of the movie, and taking that world further, you know, so, in so many ways, you know, we're guilty of it too, but we're trying to do something else with it, you know, we're trying to take it further and, and develop characters bring in new characters that just utilize that world and we have to get the other thing to remember is exactly what you said, this is a this is in so many ways that business, and sometimes it's easier, it's a different, it's an easier sell to sell someone something that they think they already know. And but it's just the now it's it's the same, but it's different. And it's it's that kind of ability to take take something that some people already are familiar with, and give it back to them in a new way. And I think that when when you do that, well, people respond to it. Well, and that was one of the great things about working on the show is that You know, it was very apparent very early on, that everybody involved in the cast and writers and the directors that were brought on board to direct episode, they were all coming to this as a, as a bit of a passion project. Nobody was really there, in my opinion, just kind of picking up the check and you know, walking away from it. Everybody was really invested in, in, in the project. I think he just you get it, you get a sense of that when you watch the stuff. And so, you know, I think that's, that's the best you can hope for this finance for.

Dave Bullis 15:36
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And you I've watched the whole the whole first season. And I can definitely tell you know, you have both of the main of the gecko brothers. They both were one looks like Clooney, one looks like Tarantino, I thought I mean, that was excellent casting, by the way. I was like, Well, I mean, I could see, you know, the, the, you know, finding someone looks like Tarantino, he has a unique look. So I was like, Man, that was it must have been either the easiest casting session ever, were the hardest casting session ever. Because, you know, I mean, either you have to look through a ton of headshots or like, only to get, you know, to closely resemble, you know, actors who submitted. And you know, and when I watched them, I watched it, you know, especially the first couple episodes, it takes place, you know, that same little convenience store with the sheriff. And, you know, and, you know, it was, you know, very well done. And, and then there's also, you know, for those who haven't seen it, there's also a whole layer that you've added to the TV show as well.

Alvaro Rodriguez 16:33
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, an eye opening in that opening episode, which is very based on the first five or 10 minutes of the film. In the film, a character from Texas Ranger Oh, McGraw's play by Michael Parkes, and he gets killed off in that first 10 minutes of come. And we had, you know, Don Johnson playing the character on our show, you know, he's a tremendous actor in it to begin with, but we were going to extend his role so that even though his character died in the first episode, he was in flashbacks for the next few episodes. And you got to see more of that character. And that's a lot of the fun of the project like this, too, is that it exists in this special, you know, world called the Tarantino universe, you know, they guarantee universe you know, or McGraw shows up and planet chair or McGraw shows up in, in other other Tarantino things. So you've got this kind of continuity of story and things like that these characters just kind of show up in these different Tarantino kind of related things. And so, it's, it's amazing to, to have a small part in that, in that world.

Dave Bullis 17:46
Yeah, and I think you've done a phenomenal job. You know, I, you know, I, when I first heard about, you know, this was on series, I, I was like, it was just gonna be a continuation, you know, this is gonna be a prequel. And then I watched it, I was like, Oh, wow, it's really interesting what they've done here. And they sort of

Alvaro Rodriguez 18:05
I was just gonna say, back in the day, you know, back in the late 90s, I actually had Robert was out out in Japan promoting a film he did call the faculty and we were messaging each other online. And he said, you know, dimension there, Max, we're interested in doing a couple of sequels decimal dot, probably will be straight to video and shot back to back and asked me if I had any ideas. And so I pitched an idea for basically it's sort of spaghetti western prequel to decimal gone, which we ended up making as decimals on three, the hangman's daughter, with Michael parks playing a real real life character named Ambrose Bierce, who disappeared in Mexico around the time of the Mexican Revolution. And so, it was great to have already kind of had the background of doing research the story also sort of the genesis of some tiny Danica pandamonium character played by Salma Hayek and original film, and cat came up with this different backstory for her and researching all the sorts of Mesoamerican mythologies of an aspect in mind things and special ideas about what these these creatures were, that inhabit the bordello south of the border. And so coming to the show, again, it was like taking some of the some of those same ideas going so much further with Herman and creating, you know, more backstory and more more, sort of lines of story and plot and character arcs and all that kind of stuff. That really was respond to work with, and coming up with ideas for for for the season, especially since you know, after the first season, the movie is over. We kind of took that movie and turned it into 10 cups of television. Obviously with a lot of new material. A lot of new characters added the character that will move all around the place

Alex Ferrari 19:59
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Alvaro Rodriguez 20:09
Just one to three characters that Cheech Bernie plays in the film, Carlos, in the movie is new, there's so much of a character in our show cause to become a main, a huge part of the show, a big anchor for the show. And now it's easy to like, you know, the world is open again. And so to be able to create the season March, you know, that takes us completely out of the movie. Now, the following these characters and allowing the stories and storylines and arcs to grow from characters, instead of just following what we had already seen, was a great challenge. And also just a great opportunity to try to do something interesting and

Dave Bullis 20:53
Just allow for a win when you're, you know, working together, imagine, you know, before each season, you know, you and all the other writers are in the room together, you know, how much how much outline do you do before you actually all get started writing your own episodes,

Alvaro Rodriguez 20:53
It was it was really kind of an amazing process, we had had kind of an eight week, stretch last summer, to just talk out where we were going. And one of the one of the I think really invaluable things that we did was, we brought in each of the main therapists, each of the main actors in one at a time to come into the room and talk about their character. Tell me and tell me what you thought about season one? How do you feel your character feels at the end of season one? How does your character feel about other characters on the show? What did you like about season one? What did you not like about season? Two differently? What kinds of things you know, would you like to see your character doing and stuff like that, and that really kind of gave us a lot of ideas. And we started out with with, with some ideas about where we thought we would go in season. But, you know, it was a it was a really evolutionary process and a really collaborative process. I think that was that was amazing. And, and then as far as outlining, now, there's so much of, you know, like, they say, so much of writing is rewriting so much for writing, it's also a prewriting process, before the scripts of, you know, writing outlines, having them, you know, brought to the table having them torn apart and rebuilt, you know, ideas that we had for a big finale that that might get just pushed, you know, further or closer to, you know, before the end of the season. So we can even go further from the big idea that we had, and all those kinds of things, you know, it's a, it really is sort of, you know, nothing is written in stone sort of thing as we're in that process. And things are very fluid and flexible, with the, with the idea of being open to open to trying to collaboratively and individually, Bring, bring your A game and keep constantly trying to challenge ourselves to make things better. One of the things our share winner has kind of instilled in all of us, this idea of, you know, our shareholders, depending FroKnowsPhoto has worked on several shows most of us, you know, great record and television. And one of the things, you know, he would say is if someone brought an idea that everybody thought, hey, that's a really good, that's a really good idea of characters, you know, do that, let's you look and earn it, you know, let's not try to put a pin over here and say, by this time this has to happen. But let's really see if we can get our characters to that point, organically through the characters themselves. Getting to that, to that good idea, you know, so it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a real challenge. And, and but, you know, it feels like, you know, we're all working together to do to try to do that.

Dave Bullis 23:57
And, you know, it's really great to have a showrunner, you know, with a lot of experience, you know, to actually sort of guide it along. I mean, you know, I've actually talked to other writers or other shows, and they've mentioned how important that person can be because, you know, like, you just said, you know, people have to earn it. And you can't sort of force it just because, hey, it's a cool idea.

Alvaro Rodriguez 24:18
Right! Yeah, no, absolutely. And that, and that, I think that spirit really continues on you. And as we're shooting an episode, you know, we come up with an idea, even as we're shooting and say, you know, maybe this needs to happen. Well, it's, you know, that's not trying to force it, let's, let's really try to find a way to make it to make it seem like a natural organic part of the story. And so, you know, there's that and we're just really, really fortunate and, you know, to creative these populations are great, great crew, great actors, great directors, photography and great directors on our episodes, to really kind of I try to, you know, to do the best that we can with, with, with ideas and with the scripts and, and, you know, try to put out something that people will will be intrigued by and want to keep watching.

Dave Bullis 25:14
So, you know, allroad now that you have, you know, you you, have you episode everything from the writers meeting, you know, how do you personally sit down to write? I mean, do you? So, I mean, I know, you've probably have a couple of points, and a couple of things that you have to incorporate in the episode. But do you? Do you sort of break it out into the eight parts, like the age structure theory? Or do you just do the traditional three act, or do you not do any of that and just go go for it in,

Alvaro Rodriguez 25:43
Oh, you know, we definitely stick to a structure, you know, on our show, we kind of go with what we, you know, presented a five act structure. And, and the outline will reflect the ACT breaks, and, you know, sometimes there's a fluid and those change, always try to have a really good strong act out. And then a strong Act in, you know, in between the breaks and stuff like that. So, you know, the outline process is fairly rigorous, and, and it's really as detailed as we can possibly make it. And then other things, there's leftist, you know, with our terminology and the writers opportunity to, you know, kind of, when you're writing the script, to actually find something that, you know, will, will not maybe not have been in the outline, or not as clear in the outline, that suddenly, in the writing of the of the script itself, you know, but, as far as the writing process, you know, it's, it's a lot of crying a lot of procrastination, a lot of, you know, suicidal thoughts, and then somehow putting together something that, that, that, you know, it's going to be challenged again, you know, and I think that's, in a lot of ways, that's a, that's a liberating part of the thing too, you know, realizing that, that, you know, it's our duty to try to give the best that we can, but realize that, you know, it's always going to be improved upon, it's really always going to, it's still a valuable thing, and up to the moment, that's the issue. Because there are things that happen. And new ideas that come in one of the one of the great things about this particular season is that we were able to have, you know, all of our scripts written before we actually started shooting. And so that allowed, you know, for a certain amount of, you know, being able to go over the entirety of the season, and the scripts, and really try to, you know, make sure all the setups were set up, and all the payoffs are paid off, you know, and, and everything got hit. So it, it you know, it sets the bar pretty high. So hopefully, we can, we can, we can make that jump.

Dave Bullis 28:06
So, you know, as your writing style sort of changed over the years, you know, from, you know, obviously was within your IMDB and your your first actual writing credit is, you know, from dusk till dawn three Hangman's daughter. So when you move back to where you are now, has your wedding sort of process changed a lot.

Alvaro Rodriguez 28:28
I think the process has probably changed a bit. And I think that the style has probably changed. And I remember back to that time, you know, one of the executives who was at the mansion at the time, said, you know, your script is great, and it reads almost like a novel. And I realized that I was, you know, I really wasn't trained as a screenwriter, a lot of this was, you know, kind of learning by doing. I didn't, I never had taken any kind of screenwriting classes or anything like that, and didn't go to school. I was an English major. But I had a lot of background and both, I had three semesters of creative writing as an undergraduate in poetry of all things. And then I was also an entertainment journalist for the student newspaper, it was just an entertainment editor. And, you know, and had done some new stuff, too. I was working in newspaper while I was writing vessel, Dawn three. And it felt like, you know, those things, which I thought of this happen, were actually strong primers for screenwriting. Because in screenwriting, it's so much about the essence of things, and such a skeletal structure that the poetry lent lends itself to that because in poetry so many times you're trying to break, you know, sensations and images and emotions in a reader in a few words as possible, creating these images in as few words as possible. And in journalism, you know, it's kind of this this just the facts, ma'am, kind of reporting, you know, which also lends itself to screenwriting. So those were those were, those were actually powerful, you know, sort of setup tools for me

Alex Ferrari 29:59
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Alvaro Rodriguez 30:09
But, you know, even then I feel like, like I learned to kind of find my voice, I think my voice was, was there in that in the first strip in payments, or wasn't the first group that written this first group that got made, and to kind of hone that down and keep trying to, you know, to, to convey as much information as possible in the most economical way possible. And, and try to really find the power of the language, in order to convey in the readers minds, that might be a reader picking up the script, and is the one who's going to pass it on to the next guy are not, or to actually have a shooting script and have, you know, the director read this and say, you know, this is how we're going to do this, or the director, photography resistance, they just have, it's going to be shot without using, you know, without telling them exactly what they're going to do, but just to be able to sort of suss that out for themselves in the script that you've written. So yeah, I think it's definitely evolved to use that word and as part of the process, and, you know, I hope that I can keep, you know, keep evolving, keep getting better at what I'm doing.

Dave Bullis 31:29
And, you know, I mean, it's, it's amazing that, you know, you always, you know, finding new ways to improve. You know, I've noticed that too, you know, you touched on something about, you know, you said the script read read like a novel. You know, as I as I do more screenwriting as well. And even read scripts, I've realized, I've finally realized now that actually reading screenplays that have either been produced or not produced, but have been like, you know, either bought or optioned, really gives you gives you a view into that world that, you know, any screenwriting guru or whatever can't give you if you know what I mean?

Alvaro Rodriguez 32:06
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think that's the thing too, I spent, I spent a long time once I started really writing and you know, hanging his daughter, and after that, of amassing a library of anything I thought was useful. But among those, you know, practically every book on screenwriting ever written, and I was always trying to find, you know, I was always trying to find shortcuts, maybe not the right word, but but sort of techniques or ideas of things that could help me, you know, in the process, and the problem with that sometimes, and it was for me was that, you know, it can become a crutch, it can actually become kind of a stifling, habit stifling. And when I was writing, and I would be like, you know, I don't know what I'm gonna do next. But I know the answer is probably on the shelf over here somewhere or these shelves, or this whole, you know, this room of books. And, and I think that the more that the more more that you actually do in the process, the more that you're actually involved in the writing process, the less that you feel like you need those kinds of things, because you've already sort of, you've made them a part of yourself, their inherent in your own sensibilities, because you've been a reader your whole life, you've read, you read scripts, or you've read novels, you've seen movies, you understand the language of film, you understand the language of screenwriting. And, and I think you're sort of getting to that point where I was kind of using the example of when I was an undergraduate, when I first got to the University of Texas, I tested out of 16 hours of Spanish, you know, and I never had to take like, I never had to take Spanish at the college level. And I felt like I never really got as intensive training in Spanish as I could have. And it wasn't until years and years later, I was finally like reading books in Spanish and realizing I wasn't translating into English in my head, as I was reading, I was just understanding. And I think it's the same thing with with the writing, it's like I, I already had the language of screenwriting, and the language of cinema in my brain, and I just needed to kind of tap into it and realize that all of these things are many of them. Were already inherently a part of my, my own sensibility.

Dave Bullis 34:24
Yeah, and, you know, I realized it too, is that when you, you know, sort of, when you start doing it, and you know, doing it as the most important part when you start getting in there and actually writing and, you know, being resistance and, and, and, you know, you start to realize you don't need those signposts as much, you know what I mean? So, you know, you I'm sure you've heard of, like, you know, there's certain rules like, Oh, by page 17, this has to happen. And, you know, and you realize that, you know, those guideposts aren't like definitive rules. They're just, you know, either, I guess you could say principles or you know, someone was just like, hey, Look, I noticed that on page 17 of these scripts this happened. So therefore, here's the rule.

Alvaro Rodriguez 35:04
Right! Well, I mean, that's the thing. I mean, I did, I did take workshops later on, especially like, I didn't save the cat workshop here in Austin with Luke Snyder when he was when he was still alive. And, and it was, it was, it was the first screenwriting workshop I'd ever done. And it was so amazing to me, because what Blake had done in his broken in the workshop was to take, you know, the sort of the sort of 15 beach, and how to show you how, you know, if you could look at drawers, and you could look at, you know, a comedy, and you could look at a horror film, you could look at it, whatever genre it was, you could always sort of find these sort of 15 things in it. And the way that he described them, this is, you know, it's like the casual Fridays version of the, you know, story or blue hunter or whatever, that, that it was, it was so accessible, you know, and, but I think, think about those things you choose that you really kind of have to take them as, as a descriptive and not prescriptive, you know, it's describing a thing that already exists. And when you, you can definitely apply them, and they can help you in structure. But, but don't be so confined to, to a page number or anything like that, just like, just know that this is sort of the way stories have been told throughout time. That's why I feel like so much of it is inherent, it's not telling you stuff that you already know, but putting it in the language that makes it sort of accessible and easy to understand, you know, so I think, I think all those things are valuable, I don't discount them in any way, shape, or form. But I think that you realize that, you know, it's kind of telling you things that you sort of already intrinsically know, and maybe have just not thought of in those terms before gives you gives you a terminology, it gives you a way to name the parts of the body of your story. And, and realize, hey, you know, the knee bones connected to the shin bone, and that, that's that that's the way that the body works. That's the way story word. And if you you know, if you put these pieces together, and realize that there's a framework, then you can kind of, you know, mess around with that and switch things around and, and surprise yourself, even with the hopes that that that's going to surprise the reader and surprise your audience. And I think the other thing is to not discount at all the value of actually working with actors, and actually being involved in the process. So that, you know, only for me, I was always kind of describing myself as a guy chained to the laptop in the dungeon. And these are all just the voices in my head I was writing out. But when you actually, you know, onset. We're out actors like Don Johnson, or Robert De Niro and machete, you know, is doing lines to route and bringing in his own sensibilities to them and stuff like that. It's like, it opens up, you know, it's like, we're on the chakra level. He was just like, shut up, your mind explodes, you reached the crown, and you've reached Nirvana when someone like Robert De Niro is doing your dialogue, and bringing this whole other sensibility to it, but you didn't see, even as you were writing it, that can influence the way that you approach writing, in poetry and dollar approach writing scene or whatever it happens to be, you know what I mean?

Dave Bullis 38:22
Oh, yeah, it's a very good point. Um, you know, sometimes, I'll sit in with script readings. So, you know, I, I actually, I co founded a writers group two years ago, and we still meet, you know, we meet twice a month. And, you know, when everyone's done, we actually staged readings, especially with good actors, and have just ever, you know, reading in a conference room altogether. And, you know, and it's, you know, the writers who, actually, who wrote that particular script, you know, they're always frantically taking notes, because you actually hearing now, you know, different voice added to that, you know, because again, like you said, they come to, you know, putting their inflection on on the character,

Alvaro Rodriguez 39:00
Right! Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And just, you know, even things that you thought work on the page that don't work, in the reality of situation, or, or, and that's another thing, too, is like, just an example of last season. Working on an episode that I've written with Robert Patrick, and we were rehearsing the scene sitting around the table without Patrick and NASM, done for Brandon Sue, who would play Kate and Scott for this is children on show. And there was a moment I was just kind of kind of glanced over Robert, and he just had this look on his face. And I just told him, I said, you know, I can't even look at you because you're so you're so intense right now. I mean, you can do more with one look than than if I gave you a page of dialogue and realize that the physicality of the actor is something that never could sort of under underestimate in, in in the writing process.

Alex Ferrari 39:59
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Alvaro Rodriguez 40:08
And realize that you have to, you have to leave something for the actor, be simple for the actor to do. Recently in Los Angeles, I went to some screenings of films that John Borman made strikingly, Marvin, particularly point blank, and a movie called Helen Pacific. And Glenn Epstein, I think his name is had written a biography of Lee Marvin told the story about a senior blank blank in which we Marvins character, Jesus comes back to the his wife, who basically set him up or watched as he was allegedly killed and left for dead. And he comes back just to see her and realizing, or thinking that he's going to kill the guy who tried to kill him that he's been now shacked up with his wife, and had this scene where we had all this dialogue, me Marvin had all this dialogue with his wife, and he just asked if he could not say any of it, and just have the conversation beyond from the wife side. And, you know, it's just his wife kind of talking to him, as if they're having a conversation, but it's only her lines, and he's just giving her the CSIS look at and he's just, he's just acting without dialogue. And you see how much how smart that is, first of all, and how brave it is, for an actor to say, I can do this without words, I can do this with my own physicality with my own presence. Without, you know, without having to just say everything that I feel, I can show you that. And to think about that, as a writer is, you know, it's, it's an amazing sort of lesson and realizing that, that this, this really is a skeleton. And it's the actors, and it's the directors of photography, and directors in the lighting firms, everybody else puts the flesh on those bones. And, and, you know, it's something I think about, you know, in the process of writing fine to kind of leave that leave that space. You know, that's what the whitespace is, I think, you know, on the page, but whitespace is, is the place where the actor shines light spaces where it's not, you know, sort of snapping isn't the dialogue for how well you wrote this action line. The actors themselves, characters that are that are breathing between this in between. And I, I talked about Jonathan Wichman, song about the Velvet Underground, he has a line in there, where he says, they played less notes and less more state. And that sort of thing I tried to do in screenwriting, kind of pointless notes and leave more space, that space there for, for the actors to inhabit. And I think when you really have a strong theme, like that, the theme, I think, it's my favorite scene in that episode, where these characters are sitting together, realizing that they're, they're kind of stuck in this place, and, and stuff, Gecko is kind of forcing them to confront their own demons. And there's only one one thing that that the valley This is good, but it's, it's, it's really what the actors bring to it, it's really so much of what they're what they're showcasing their own panel capabilities. You know, provides a lesson to me as a writer,

Dave Bullis 43:29
It's sort of like adding that layer of subtext, you know, and it's sort of, you know, finding a way to actually say things that actually coming out and saying them and all the things below the surface. And, you know, I've never actually seen that movie, but I will make sure to actually check that out. Because that would, you know, that's a way to, you know, to tell a story.

Alvaro Rodriguez 43:49
Yeah, point let me and I think he also gives another example another movie that we Marvin did with the director Richard Brooks called the professional which is a Western it's also I'm sure it's a big influence on on planning Tarantino and things like that too. But point blank to the professionals and talents Pacific which is basically in a lot of ways a silent film, to actually live in and to share the filming the Japanese actor are stranded on an island in World War Two. And you know, one of the speaking with women speak Japanese for this remade in a way as enter the mind and 80s Bible from theaters. With Denis play the new Boston is a sci fi movie, we're human and alien or crash landed on this planet. And, you know, you just, you're just such strong lessons for a writer, to look at structure to look at how stories are told, and to look at the, you know, to be reminded of, of how much can be done with silence or how much can be done with with work with with with the telling story, or Robert told the story. I'm not yours actually in the director's chair or not, that's something that Francis Coppola had told him and he was doing the interview about, you know, something that he liked to do with the actors is shooting an entire scene without dialogue, just as a, just as a rehearsal as a practice. And laboratory, he never, he never actually done that before. But he was really intrigued to try it. You know. And, and I think that those, you know, there's something, there's something that can be gained by that. There's, there's definitely a lesson to be learned. From the writer standpoint, and from the directing standpoint, to you know, that you're not dependent, what was coming out of the actors. Now, as much as you are, you know, remembering that this is cinema, you know, this is a visual medium. People remember shots, people remember quotes from movies all the time. But, you know, when you have a scene, and you let the actors sort of really inhabit that thing, and you don't not in a hurry, I'll cut. You know, you can find some impressive moments, and hopefully, remember them in a way that will illuminate your own writing. At least I did.

Dave Bullis 46:11
And that is a very interesting technique as well, you know, what I want? And one of these, you know, film books I have? No, you can't see it right now. There's a whole shelf of screaming in books behind me of films and everything else. Once again, I'm sure I'm sure we have probably have almost the entire same library. But but, you know, there was a technique where the guy actually says, watch your favorite film without sound. And, and, you know, and yes, just see how every scene plays out?

Alvaro Rodriguez 46:39
Absolutely, absolutely. You know, one piece of advice that I've often given people, you know, either in a workshop that I've taught or, or LED, or, you know, people have asked me about, you know, writing something, and I said, Well, you know, like, you've seen lots of movies. So what's your, you know, think of a movie that has a great scene and that you really love, and then try to find the screenplay for that movie, and read the scene, read and read. What does that look like on paper? You know, you have this favorite scene from, you know, I don't know, The Exorcist or to live and die in LA or freakin examples. But, you know, what does that look like on paper? Well, it was just an action scene, one of the action laundry lines, and then what how does what does that look like? And just to see the thing that you've always seen, completely visual, visually? And what's that look like? When it's words on paper? You know, and, and to see how that was translated to become the scene that you loved in the movie? I think that's a that's a really strong lesson for kind of just just to experience that in a different way. And that's,

Dave Bullis 47:52
Yeah, and I agree that something I've done too, is actually go out and find the screenplays of things. Like I Speaking of which, you know, you know, the Oscars weren't too long ago. As soon as I watched Birdman and the Grand Budapest Hotel, I was like, I gotta see these screenplays. Right. I think those two and whiplash are definitely the best written movies in the Oscar race. And those are three screenplays. I was like, I just want to see how they did this. And, you know, it's phenomenal. And actually, I had one of the writers of Birdman, Alex and Dan Alerus, on here, about 15 episodes ago, and he was, you know, as awesome be able to pick his brain, but it is yours. Because, you know, you're the guy who actually wrote You know, you know, you know, these films that you know, we're talking about, so you can actually tell us? No, this is what I did, you know, and speaking of which, you know, I want to ask you, you know, about machete, and, you know, I wanted to ask you, you know, did you come up with this, you know the inception of this idea, or was it was it, Robert or was it was it your brainstorming

Alvaro Rodriguez 48:55
It was always Robert, it was always Robert and Danny. I mean, I think you know, when Robert first met Danny pareho when you can so edition for Desperado. And you know, the storytellers with Robert took one look at Danny's you're the guy. Rob. Danny was auditioning for a character called the boss which means knives. And he's a nicer and Desperado. And then talking to Derek. Oh, hi. And, you know, Danny had been packing for many years already. Usually playing you know, bug number three, or you know, the bad guy. It's fall apart. And you know, Robert, just like you said, became fast friends with Danny and said, you know, it'd be great to make a movie in which you're the you're the hero. You're the guy. And I think that was sort of the inception of machete and Robert had written kind of a long treatment script and that kind of thing for for a machete character. And then when it came time to make the Grindhouse Rubbermaid plant chair punter gene and a deaf person is releasing several feature.

Alex Ferrari 49:56
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Alvaro Rodriguez 50:05
Then came up with this idea of really kind of going with the whole double feature drive in concept and doing fake trailers for movies that didn't exist. And so machete became one of those things. And it was like, well, great, we can just make the big trailer, we got to have to make the movie. But then, you know, even though Brian house, you know, sort of underperformed with the box office, the trailer from the shed, he sort of took on a life of its own on YouTube and things like that. And people really responded to it, it became a thing where it's not low, we're actually going to do and I started writing around the time of Grindhouse, I was there and wrote a little bit of dialogue is actually in the trailer with GH as the priest. And then you know, later on, just started working from the trailer, basically, and creating a new story, a fuller story out of it, and having creating more characters, the just all the character, the show boundaries character, that that Don Johnson character, all those kinds of things that just really evolved over time until we actually knew the phone. And, and you see, you know, you see how it turned out.

Dave Bullis 51:24
Yeah, I thought it was phenomenal. And I ain't you know, it, you know, it was the Grindhouse theme, you have the cuts and scratches. And you know, and you know, and it's just you know, Danny is the perfect guy to play a guy. I mean, he looks at a guy named machete.

Alvaro Rodriguez 51:39
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I just did a panel with him the Comic Con in Fort Lauderdale two weeks ago, you know, and someone from the audience asked, you know, what's your favorite character, and said, you know, machete, and Marcia Brady. asked him how that happened. And he said, Yeah, you know, my manager says, you know, I think we got a Superbowl commercial. And he was like, You're kidding, you know, what, what do I have to do? You have to be Marcia Brady, you're not gonna do it. You know, even that is just like, so amazing. It was so amazing. It's terrific. Glasses, should be a small part of the sort of persona that Danny has been able to inhabit as that character.

Dave Bullis 52:41
So when you know when they were filming with Chet de we you on set every day, or were you orgies a few days, or

Alvaro Rodriguez 52:47
A few days, I was on, off and on? It was you know, it was amazing. It was amazing. I got to be upset when Robert De Niro was there and talked to him a bit. And, you know, you're so you're so generous. And so, so commented. And I think the thing about, you know, the thing about him, too, was that, you know, he was feeling he had expressed interest in becoming involved in the project early on, to play the plays this genogram. And in the original draft of the script, the senator was just the guy to get shot, it was not really a character in the, in the script. So it really started having to try to build a character out of this guy. And so you know, that the thing that, you know, we understood from from Robert Janiero was that he wasn't interested in, you know, doing it unless there was really something there to do. And it didn't want people to fail. He was just, you know, picking up a check. And so, you know, started coming up with ideas and sending in dialogue and concepts and stuff like that. And we get responses, like, that's good, that's good, Keep coming, keep coming. And, you know, finally hit on sort of the finale of his character, and, you know, the speeches that I'd written for his character, you know, when you signed on, and one of the funny things in the, in the finale of the film after he's been shot, he's dying on the floor, on the ground, with Lindsay Lohan dressed as a nun hovering over him with a gun. He's sort of kind of blanking out, you start in my script, at least one draft of it. He starts reciting the act of contrition and the Catholic act of contrition in Latin, like he's reverting back to his actual, you know, he's not really a Texan and all this stuff. And Robert read the thing and he's like, Well, what the hell is this? It's like, you know, he's not really fixing he's he's reverting back to this, you know, New York childhood or whatever. It is all deploying either saying that contrition forgiveness before he dies. And it's like, that doesn't make you never going to do that. And then that one day and I got a call from Elizabeth Ramadan, those spirits are on the phone. But she's like, I want to read the need the Latin correctly talking about, like the Latin thing that the Nero says he's working with a priest, he wants to get it right. But that was the thing he was. So he became just completely prepared into every line of dialogue. And he did, you know, it was never a thing where, you know, I don't know, my line or whatever like that, please, you know, he was she was totally into it. And I think he had a really good time doing it, and certainly had, you know, it was definitely a highlight of my professional career to say, Well, I didn't really Robert De Niro, and Lohan and everybody else, but you know, he was definitely an actor. I grown up, you know, just loving every film that was done. And I was so impressed with with him and his presence. But had backstories I guess for a lot of the actors that I've worked with, have just been really fortunate to have people that just always think to bring their A game

Dave Bullis 54:04
And asked me such a high as a writer to to say, you know, hey, Alfa, who's your movie? Oh, we had, you know, Robert De Niro. And so and you you also you touched on your your Lindsay Lohan. And I'll see you at Steven Seagal movie as well.

Alvaro Rodriguez 56:32
Steven Seagal was great. We had you know, Don Johnson written some things, you know, Robert has spent a lot of time with Don Johnson before and, and so you know, we use some of the like little phrases that Don Johnson says in the sprint. And I was sitting with him one day on set, and he was like, Oh, I love this is great. You know, I say stuff like this, like, how does that blow your spirit up? And I said, I know. That's why we put it in to be very natural. It was, you know, just amazing. Really, I mean, even during the editing process I was sitting with, with my cousin, Rebecca Roberts, younger sister who was working on the film as well. We were watching the dinner scene. And I said, just stop for a minute. And she said, What's matter? That's Robert De Niro. Thing lines I wrote, you know, in my room, and now it's just like, I didn't need a minute.

But you know, it's great. And whenever stuff like that happened, it's important to just say thank you, I'd be amazed by it all.

Dave Bullis 57:44
You know, and that is that is absolutely amazing. And, and, you know, like you said, it's also as I've been finding it to, to have gratitude as well and always miss and live in the moment and not, you know, just sort of when you see Robert De Niro and just want to stop it there. That's, you know, that's amazing. Albro

Alvaro Rodriguez 58:02
I was just Yeah, I still get goosebumps. Thinking about it. You know? And it was, it was a great experience. And, you know, the movie did well. And, you know, I was just really proud of the way it turned out and realized that, you know, the last draft is the final edit of the movie. You know, there's so much of that movie that some so many ways that movie was improved by by the editor, and really making me come together. And, you know, it's far from a perfect movie, but it's definitely something I'm proud of. And, and, you know, it was a great experience.

Dave Bullis 58:44
And, you know, I particularly like the the the final battle between Seagal and Trejo because if you ask me in a million years, I never would have guessed that, you know, those two ever would have crossed paths and you know, in any movie because they sort of do different movies, you know, but they were able to come together for machete machete. And it's just, you know, I thought it was very well done. So and Scott was still doing his Akito and, you know, Trejo still swinging the mushroom in the mid shut days. He's so confused. I thought it was very well choreographed as well, I thought was phenomenal.

Alvaro Rodriguez 59:17
Yeah, well, thanks, Jamie. And, you know, that's again, it's like, you know, part of that part of the whole process of machete to is realizing for fairly early on, this was going to be in so many ways to kind of kitchen sink, rewriting. It's like, nothing is off by and nothing is out of bounds. Everything Is Everything is possible. You know, you could have a scene where a guy would close down a building with someone's intestines. Or, you know, Michelle establish those cops you know, or the fake cop through to the back of the seat and in the backseat of the car and then steers the car by turning is the surely through the guy, you know, and stuff like that. And it's and

Alex Ferrari 59:59
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Alvaro Rodriguez 1:00:08
You know, so it was, it was, it was pretty liberating in that way to them realizing that you're gonna have this, this pretty the final showdown were going on. anything was possible, you could have, you know, sword fight with machete and, you know, and the integral in his story, you know, it was just turning everything up to around him, I hope.

Dave Bullis 1:00:34
So, you know, when you were actually writing it, did you actually know Scott was gonna be cast in that part? Where did you actually, you know, sort of, you know, a follow up that part later on, when Scott was cast

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:00:44
A little bit of both, a little bit of both, I mean, the character was starting to be there before it was the goal. And then knowing it was the goal, things were, you know, were enhanced in attitude, it was, it was really fun that was part of the process with, with the movie itself. And even from Lindsay Lohan's character to I mean, Robert, told me if I can get Lindsay Lohan to play this part, but it's not even a part. You know, we got it, we got to try to, you know, give her some stuff and, and just sort of, you know, hit on these different little ideas that this kind of gave her gave her her own heart. And, and, and told a little story, you know, so it was great. It was, it was it was, it was so much fun to be a part of that, that process.

Dave Bullis 1:01:32
And, you know, that's great that everything was able to come together, you know, very, very, you know, it's something that, you know, you've been involved in moviemaking for, you know, doing with two decades now. And you know, you know, whatever can go wrong will go wrong in a film set. And, you know, or even even beyond that, you know, even when things are in development, it's so good. You were able to put it together. But I mean, again, if you have any listener out there has not seen that yet. I urge you to go out there and check it out. It's phenomenal. You know, we've been talking for about an hour now. Would you mind just taking a few quick questions that got sent in? Sure. I'm sorry. That was an hour flew by? Yeah, it always seems to work out that way. Which I don't know, if I just asked the right question. Or, you know, I just sort of I don't know. So, but you know, I'm glad it flew by? Because I mean, it was one of

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:02:25
The conversation. Yeah, it's the conversation, you know, when you when you talk and you have your conversation, you you're not looking at your watch. So that's what, that's good.

Dave Bullis 1:02:35
So our first question is alvaro, would you ever consider directing your own film?

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:02:41
Absolutely. Absolutely. I definitely am interested in doing that. Years and years and years ago, I had written was actually my first screenplay. And I was hoping to directly it was going to be very low budget, very independent Texas based project, it never really got off the ground, but sort of as, as training for that I went and made a short film on video that no one has ever seen, no one will ever see. But you know, and it happened so quickly. It was not much of a lesson to me, except to realize that I needed a lot more experience. You know, and that for a long time, I just, you know, whenever I was asked that question, I would say, you know, you know, I just right now I'm just really trying to focus on being a better writer, that's still my answer, I'm still trying to focus on being a better writer, but I'm definitely interested in doing that. Down the road behind the camera. And, you know, I think that's part of the new part of the great opportunity of working on decimal, Dawn is that, as a writer of the episode, we're sort of writer producer, you're they're upset, you're, you're working with the actors as much as you want to be. And so I've had very hands on experience in terms of working with the actors, or rehearsing with the actors, you know, even helping block scenes, and things like that, that. That, to me is like, again, sort of more fuel for the fire really wanting to take the opportunity to try to do to derive as well, I mean, I guess it's, it's the thing to have that less than that, I feel like I have learned or am learning about the sort of the sort of things that are sort of that I have the language or cinema in some way already in my brain. And I can, I can approach these things in that way. You know, we're still with a, with a very open, very open heart and mind thing and I'm always going to try to be learning. I'm the director and training or writer and training or whatever, you know, but I'm learning by doing and trying to be as involved in the process as possible.

Dave Bullis 1:05:07
And that's also you going to actually you're actually going by, you know, writing era directing your own film. Yeah. Because honestly, because then you could VOB like, you know, your, your cousin or Tarantino was, you know, write and direct and, you know, really put your stamp on the film, kind of like, you know, the tour theory of filmmaking, but this time, you know, you know, you can say that, because, you know, you have the writer director, you know, and you, you know, you

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:05:31
Yeah, well, you know, the theory is that wonderful, is a wonderful concept. And I certainly think that it holds true, you know, in a lot of ways, directors, especially those directors, you know, they definitely have a stance, but I think that the thing that maybe I realized, coming out of from the, from the perspective of the writer, and just sort of being a fly on the wall, sometimes in an onset, or whatever, in any kind of environment, when you see the process, you know, it's so filmmaking and television is the most collaborative, creative form that there is my mind, it is, through their collaboration, nothing is possible without, you know, everybody input everybody's efforts to make this thing happen. You know, if you really want to be an authority, you know, write poetry, because no one is ever going to say, you know, I'd really love to write a poem with you, you know. And, and I think that's, I mean, to me, that, that's, that's, that's, I think, that's a lot of ways why, you know, Robert, as, as really dependent on and creating relationships with people with whom you can work again, and again, actors and, and people behind camera, because there's a sort of shorthand language that the defense developed. And there's a, there's a sort of unwritten expectations on what people are bringing to the table. And, and doesn't mean that he doesn't direct, the RSC does, but but he is able to, to, to get what he wants, by, by virtue of having a really strong cast and crew. And, and be the first person to acknowledge that it may not have been that way, in the early days, because he was so he was so hands on. And so, you know, with El Mariachi and the short films that he made the for them, it was always a thing of, he was really trying to become a master of all trades, not just a jack of all trades, but a master of all of them, because he never knew what was going to be the thing that was going to get him a job. You know, maybe people will hate my movie, but they'll love the way it was shot. And I'll get a job as a DP. And they knew they'll hate, you know, they'll hate the way it looks, but they love the spirit and the dialogue, and I'll get hired as a writer. So he was always, you know, really trying to find the best in himself, to fill all those roles, to see which one was going to be the one thing that people responded, and they happen to respond to all of it, you know, in so many ways. And, but, you know, now in the, on the big scale, it's really impossible to do that so much anymore. And, you know, I think that, you know, whenever you see these speeches, when people are kept awards, and they, you know, they think, you know, the writers or they think the producers, and they, they thank the people who put this thing together, and it's, there's so much community experience. I think Orson Welles that every movie is a miracle. And the miracle is that you get all these different people who may have all kinds of different opinions to work together out upon. And that's really, I think, what sort of unites them and get everybody working for the good of the, of the project and doing their best.

Dave Bullis 1:09:07
And just add on you said, you know, the director is a guy that sort of leads a team and builds a team. That's so true. And, you know, one thing that I, you know, I've always heard is the idea of genius surround, which means, you know, always hire people that are smarter than you are. And, you know, that and that way, you know, you know, and they said, you know, we part of the director, directors job, it can be taken care of, just by hiring good, you know, having a great script, have a great cinematographer, and then having great actors and then you know, you pretty much you know, it's only yours to mess up from there.

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:09:46
If I were to go direct the film right now, I would have no idea you know, what kind of lighting am I going to use? Or what's the right terminology for this piece of lighting or that piece of lighting or this this lens or that lens? I would have no idea at all.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:00
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Alvaro Rodriguez 1:10:10
You know, I might have, you know, a very, very, very basic idea. But I mean, again, that's the thing I, you know, it would be a matter of really kind of surrounding yourself with people who know what their, what their tasks are, that's great. And they know their strengths. So you're trying to put together a team that not everybody has the same strengths, but because you put together a team, now you're, you're pretty badass. And it's just your job to make sure that, that it all comes together in the way that you want it. And you keep pushing until you get what you want.

Dave Bullis 1:10:48
Yeah, very well said. And, and our next question is, Alberto, what advice could you give for someone trying to break into Hollywood?

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:11:00
You know, I always felt guilty about that question, because, you know, I didn't, you know, in a lot of ways, I'm broken into Hollywood. And what I have done is, you know, been able to do the work with Robert on many, many projects, I'm now working with other with other people on other projects, and doing other things off the ground features and stuff like that. But, you know, obviously, I feel like, I had a, you know, a huge door opened up for me that I scrambled through. But, I, at the same time, you know, you mentioned 20 years of experience, but a lot of those years, I wasn't making fun of those years, I was not, I was not as involved as I as I could have been, I never really kind of took the bull by the horns and said, You know, I'm going to go to LA and I'm going to try to, you know, work my way into the system, and everything has a time in place. But I would say that, you know, to kind of follow up with Virginia surrounds, like is this Detroit, you know, it's there's so much in this, in my experience that, I don't know if I can speak to the business, but I'll definitely say in my experience, that you cannot undervalue the power of relationships. And every, every time that that I have had any kind of success, any kind of forward movement, it's always been built upon relationships and meeting, putting yourself in a space where you can meet people, and, and, and, and find common interests and things that you can do. And then one of the huge things for me was, when machete came out, in 2010, I was invited to be a panelist at the Austin Film Festival. And I really literally was the guy changer, the laptop in the basement for such a long time. Even though I've already done that for about three years earlier. I was suddenly, you know, up on stage, you know, doing panels with real working professional screenwriters that I somehow tricked into thinking I was one of them. And, you know, it really opened a lot of doors for me, because I became instant friends with a lot of people I'm still friends with today that have helped me in so many ways. In the sciences, you know, that I used to go to California, and, you know, and try to set up meetings, you know, from the point the plane landed, so I have coffee with one guy says, Oh, you need to go talk to this guy, that you should meet this person. And then coffee and breakfast and lunch and drinks and dinners and after things and just like really networking, putting your best foot forward, you know, and thing of being a bridge builder, and, and trying to, you know, define those things, you know, find the ways that, that, that that will help you get where you want to be, you know, and I found that, you know, having boots on the ground in California and Los Angeles, especially, there's always has been over the last couple of years, but actually, it's been huge for me. It's almost like uncanny sort of chain of chain with things that someone I didn't know, you know, last week, two weeks later was saying, you know, I'd like to work on a project with you, or would you like to be involved in this? Or would you would you give me some ideas about this, and then something happened. It's just, it's pretty amazing. But I think that's the thing is, you've got to put yourself in a position to create that kind of environment. So, you know, it means starting joining small in the main starting in a local writers group and do that and find it find the people in the writers that you really complement with that. And I know that that are, you know, bring something to the table, you don't maybe even work with them, or maybe even work with you. And, and just start, you know, really start building, building your relationships as you're building their own talent and building your skills. And then just push. And that's I think that's the thing, it's pushed as much as as much as you can. I don't know, I don't know what else to say about it. And for sure, I wish everybody good luck. And we're living in an age right now with the demand for content, I don't think there's ever been as high as that. The opportunities have never been as plentiful as they are, right. I mean, in a lot of ways, and I think that, that just sort of the willingness to, to say, I'm ready, I'm ready for work I'm ready for for, you know, I'm ready to take this to the next step. And join yourself in the next is good advice, as I think I think

Dave Bullis 1:16:10
And, you know, again, you know, Cisco Networking meetings, and you know, just finding out what you can do for people and being a bridge builder. And, you know, again, I think that's key, not sort of so much asking why other people can do for you what you can do for other people. You know, people don't want to, you know, be sold to constantly it's like, you know, like, when I talk to people on social media to Alvarez, a, they I always tell people do don't constantly promote yourself, you know, don't constantly talk about this, you know? Because that's just the turnoff. No, no one's gonna follow you just to hear all about you constantly.

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:16:44
Right! Right. That's true. I mean, I think that's the thing that, you know, social media is still in its infancy in a lot of ways. And, and that's that, that is a lesson that people are learning, I'm learning it through. And I think that there's this thing about social media, if you really kind of, I think, try to use it in your, in your best interest is not always to be self promoting, but to be sharing, you know, to share other people's successes, you know, and promoting other people's other people's projects and stuff like that. So when someone you know, friend of mine post, you know, my friends, were trying to have a Kickstarter, really trying to get this project off the ground, you know, if I have 20 bucks, I'll throw it into the alternative, I've never met these other guys, or friends, or my friends, you know, I'll throw in the money, and I'll promote it on my Facebook page, or whatever. But you know, if I can do that, you know, I just, you know, I want to share, you know, whenever I do social media stuff, whether it's like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, whatever, you know, they're, you know, you could be able days, or you can just be all about me, me, me. And I definitely do some of that and say, Oh, look, you know, here I am in the writing room, and on some semi exotic locations, and Angeles or whatever. And, or I'm saying, you know, you need to be watching this show American crime, it's a British show on television right now, and people are really going to dig it. Because I have friends that are active on the show versus guys made show. And that's just like, you know, that's the kind of thing that I'd like to do, and just try to, you know, try to, you know, kind of spread the goodwill. Yeah. And then, you know, you're just like, there's so many people in so many connections that you can make, I mean, I've never met you in person, I only know you from from Twitter and things like that. And I wouldn't be doing this podcast with you. Otherwise, you know, so on. And it's an amazing tool. And it can it can build relationships, and connect people together in ways that, you know, would have been impossible 10 years ago. So I think it's great.

Dave Bullis 1:19:10
Yeah, and I find a lot of guests through Twitter, too, because that's how I think we initially met. And then And then now, yeah, you're right. It's you know, and using Twitter as a networking tool has been awesome for me. Just meeting people and just seeing what they're working on and stuff like that. I've actually tinkered around about actually writing a book about how, how I use Twitter as a networking tool.

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:19:33
Great. I do. Oh, thanks. Definitely tweet about it.

Dave Bullis 1:19:38
Well, thank you. It's all it's all my pile outro of like, you know, the 8 million. It's like, okay, that's a good idea. Maybe I should do that. It's, it's one of those things, you know, I'm gonna get around to Sunday right now, you know, I'm just focusing on some other actual writing things. But we've been talking for about an hour and 80 minutes or so,

Alex Ferrari 1:20:02
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Dave Bullis 1:20:11
So, you know, and I know, you know, you're busy. And you, you know, I don't want to keep you too much longer. So, you know, in closing, is there anything that we didn't discuss that, you know, you wanted to mention or talk about?

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:20:23
I think we covered it, I just, you know, I would just say that, you know, it's, it's, like I say, I'm, I feel like, I'm not, maybe not, I'm the last person to give advice. But you know, because I still feel like I'm, I'm trying to be learning every day, I'm trying to keep that, that, that perspective on everything. But I know that there's things that I picked up that if I can impart to someone else, and they can get something out of it, you know, I think that's great. I mean, it's like, you're gonna use what you can use and, you know, which get us to throw it away, you know. And I think that's the same thing. There's so many, so many things that are out there for aspiring writers, or writers that are trying to break into the business. You know, but, you know, just because, you know, you've read it in a bookstore, it's, you know, you've got to make the experience will be valuable for yourself. You know, I did teach for a short while I taught a course, at Texas a&m Galveston study, still sports of all things. And I had the students read this book from a Herman Melville novel that nobody reads anymore called Redburn. But a boy's first journey to see. And he's taking his, he's going to Liverpool, and he's taking his father's guidebook to Liverpool. And when he gets to the city, and he opens up the guidebook, he realizes the city has changed. And that, you know, as far as guidebook really wasn't much helpful to him anymore, and he had to find his own way, in the city, there were some things that were some sort of landmark, but the city changed. And I think that, you know, the lesson I was trying to impart that time, it's like, I'm giving you a lot of ideas about how to kind of manage your time how to study how to kind of working through how to do all these things, you know, you might find that some of them are most useful for you, you got to find what works and not be afraid of trying new things, and being open to experiences and, and really trying to build on the one on on your base, and never sit back and say, you know, I know it all. And people would just have to recognize my genius. It's a constant. It's a constant learning process. And I'm still doing it. I wish everybody social media and trying to do those things, the best of the best of luck and doing

Dave Bullis 1:22:59
Very cool. And you know, that's a very, very awesome positive message. Albro very positive. That's good. It's gonna be about the positive. Because, you know, there's far too many negative people in this world. So, you know, I want to say thank you, thank you very much, again, for coming on. Thank you. Appreciate it. Oh, you know, my pleasure is all mine. So, you know, where can people find you out online?

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:23:25
I'm on Twitter and I was busy. I'm on Facebook, I think the same thing, and I was funny around, I don't have a site or anything like that. But, you know, I'm often doing different events and not really doing anything at Southside. But every year I'm pretty active with the Austin Film Festival, doing panels and roundtables and, and you know, every October you can definitely find me around there. But, you know, look, look me up and keep an eye out on the race network for Destiel dog Season Two later this year. Hopefully, we've got some good stuff in store for fans of the show. And you know, the original the first season is already on Netflix in its entirety. Or if you're like, you know, really angelegt you can you can get the blu ray or DVD set with all the extras and commentaries and fun stuff like that.

Dave Bullis 1:24:33
You know, and also I'll make sure to link to everything in the show notes as well so you know, everyone if you you know, if you don't ever have been to El Rey network or you've never actually you know, seen an average Twitter, just look click on the show, just click on the links in the show notes and you'll be taken right there. And also most of the link to desolder on Season One. So again, if you haven't checked that out yet, please do because it's very cool, especially if you have enjoyed the the Each movie it's based off of. And it like everyone I've said it just expands upon that. So, in closing, everyone, thanks again for listening, you can find me at Dave bulls.com and Twitter. It's at Dave Bullis should be at Dave underscore bulls. And you know, there's you know, tons of show note links that if you want to stalk me on any other social media sites, they're there as well. And so cool outro thanks again, buddy. And, you know, I wish you the best of luck with you know, season two of Gustl dawn. And you know, if you ever want to come back, man, please let me know that was always wide open.

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:25:37
Thanks a lot, Dave. I really appreciate it. Talking to you.

Dave Bullis 1:25:39
Yeah. Good talking to bud.

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:25:41
All right. Take care.

Dave Bullis 1:25:42
Have a good night, buddy.

Alvaro Rodriguez 1:25:45
Thank you.

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IFH 707: The Hidden Tools of Comedy with Steve Kaplan

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Alex Ferrari 0:02
I like to welcome to show Steve Kaplan. Man, thank you so much for jumping on the show today.

Steve Kaplan 2:52
My pleasure.

Alex Ferrari 2:53
Thank you, man I've been I've been wanting to get you on the show for a long time. And as you've like I said earlier Off, off off air is like I've seen your work fly through my feed so many times and it's just like, I gotta reach out to see one of these days. I gotta reach out to sequences. It's just everything get caught up. And I finally have you here to talk comedy.

Steve Kaplan 3:12
We're both excited. Good.

Alex Ferrari 3:14
So you have a a long and illustrious career in the business. How did you get started in the business?

Steve Kaplan 3:22
I started out as a as a bad actor, or mediocre actor, okay. And, and a and a kind of a frustrated comic. I was I was not very good as a comic places asked me never to come back like not even as a customer. And, and I was I had two friends who were actors. And I started doing some directing. And they they said, Well, you know, we can't get we want to control our own careers. So we want to start a theatre company in New York. And I said, Great, let me think about it for a second. So I came back to a meeting with them and I said, Let's do something that no one else is doing. Everybody else does, you know serious theater and they do productions of checkoff in turtlenecks and, and expressionistic abstract plays I said, let's, let's be different. Let's do comedy. Let's be a theatre company that's devoted only to comedy. And, and they thought about it for a second and they they realized that it at the time in New York, it kind of filled a niche that no one else was filling. So we started this, this theater company. We called it Manhattan punch line. It wasn't a comedy club it. We did plays we did, but we did stand up nights we did improv and a lot of great people came out of it. We had David Crane who went on to do a little thing called friends. And Oliver Platt is great actor and We had people who later went on, like skips Grove in and David Currie they later went on to become executive producers and television. Michael Patrick king who did Sex in the City, two Broke Girls. He was the he was in our improv group. So a lot of great people came out of it. And as, as a young man, in the arrogance of youth, I thought I knew everything there was to know about comedy. Of course, I would. I was fascinated by comedy as a kid. I watched all the old Bing Crosby pop, road movies, Stan, Laurel and Hardy all you know, African Costello, I thought I knew everything there was to know about comedy. But after producing and directing for a couple of years, I thought to myself, Okay, I don't know everything. But I know it's not funny goddamnit. And shortly thereafter, I thought to myself, how the frick does this stuff work? Why is something funny on a Thursday, no longer funding on a Sunday? Why is Why is a script, sometimes the funniest the first time you get some actors around the table to read it. And after that, as when you're working on it, the more you work on it, the more you rehearse it, the less funding it becomes. So I saw what was going on. So I started doing experiments, I started, I was teaching an improv class to actors. And I started creating and designing improv games and exercises to try to understand what comedy is, why it works, what's happening when it doesn't work, and how can you fix it? And, and out of that 25 year exploration came this book, The Hidden tools of comedy. And I did that because when I came to Los Angeles, a guy who had been working with Robert McKee, your first Yeah, right? Story, of course, yeah. Yes, story. And he said to me, he said, you know, you could do for comedy with Robert McKee does for story. And I thought, Oh, that's interesting. Because up to then I just been a theater director, I'd work with actors, I taught acting, and improv. And so then I started to work with writers and do workshops for writers. And that kind of snowballed, and pretty soon, I was being flown out to Singapore, to London, to New York, to to Australia, and, and pretty soon on traveling around the world and, and doing comedy. And it all came out of the fact that I was this frustrated performer who tried to get his class to laugh successfully. I was, you know, most people are class clowns. I was a failed class clown. Well, you

Alex Ferrari 7:55
know, it's interesting that you say that, because I, you know, I find it that there are people who are innately funny, like, they could just you throw them in front of a room, and they could just make the crowd laugh. And then there's people who can write funny, but you throw them in front of a crowd, they just won't be able to do it. And sometimes, and then sometimes you get the magic of both, you get someone who's amazing writer and amazing performer. But it sounds like you were more of the writing style, as opposed to

Steve Kaplan 8:24
actually actually I was I was more of the, if you get me in a room, at a party, put a couple of drinks in me, maybe, you know, maybe a cigarette or two, you know, and, and I can be pretty funny, but, but it was getting up in front of strangers and, and writing materials. So what I found was my, my skill or my, my gift was was not in creating material, but in working on other people's material. And that's, that that's why I was good director. And I became a very and I am a very accomplished story, analyst and story consultant. So I do a lot of script consulting, for writers and, and producers and production companies. You know, what, I,

Alex Ferrari 9:16
when when analyzing comedy, because I've loved comedies, I've been I follow comedies on like I you know, even every every part of the kind of work I do as a director or as a writer, I always have some sort of comedic element into it. It's just, it's innate in me. And I've been fortunate or unfortunate to know many standard comics and worked with many standard comics over the years, which are generally the saddest people.

Steve Kaplan 9:43
They are they are big, dark, broken, broken people. Ray Romano one said that if he had been hugged once as a child could be an accountant. Exactly. And they're you know, they're filling their you know, even more than Then actors, comics are trying to fill in an unfillable hole that can never be never be completed. Doesn't doesn't mean that every comic is is depressed or has to be depressed. But well adjusted. People do not go into

Alex Ferrari 10:22
Amen, sir. Amen. So no, what I find funny is like growing up in the, you know, I'm an 80s kid. And I, you know, a lot of the comedies from the 80s, and even from the 70s, a Mel Brooks stuff, Spaceballs, Blazing Saddles, silent movie, history of the world. Some of that stuff's still still like Young Frankenstein. You can watch him Frankenstein today. And it holds

Steve Kaplan 10:46
it whole Frankenstein holds up. high anxiety does not

Alex Ferrari 10:53
correct. Yeah, there's certain there's certain things that do so in your opinion, why

Steve Kaplan 10:58
I think the difference is, a Young Frankenstein, even though it's full of gags, is about is a story. Yeah, that a guy trying to create a relationship and trying to figure out his place in the world. Whereas high anxiety is simply a series of parodies on Hitchcock with, with a disposable story that you you know, if you think about it, you can't really believe in it, you don't really believe in the relationship. So to me, comedy that that sustains and that, that that holds up over time. Even if it's as silly as airplane is always it is always about characters in crisis, as opposed to Scary Movie four, which has, which has as many gags per minute as airplane does. But you don't care about those characters, your your they never asked you to take them seriously. They never ask you to care about them to empathize with them. So that's to me, that's the big difference

Alex Ferrari 12:03
airplane is it's on my top, top 10 comedies of all time, I mean, it's just a brilliant thing. And those kinds of films, though they do hold over time. You watch even Some like it hot. You watch some like a high. And that thing is like it's like a Swiss Swiss clock is just hitting boom, and boom and a boom. And it's and it holds in how old is that? What that was? From

Steve Kaplan 12:27
the 50s? In the 50s? Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 12:30
so that I mean that movies over half a, you know, a decade a half a century old. And it's still hold.

Steve Kaplan 12:38
Hey, don't be ageist. Hey.

Alex Ferrari 12:44
No, no, no, but it's still no but like, you know, 50 years young, obviously, obviously. But, but there's a lot of things that even from the 90s Don't hold and from in early 2000s that were pipe might have made noise when it came out. But you go back and watch it now just like, like bar at which I still find it. I couldn't believe Borat was made. I went back and watched it a little bit. It doesn't mean I know all the jokes coming. So it doesn't hold as much as it did when it first came out. You know when it did and that kind of comedy. But it was very, it's just very interesting. What makes things hold and what doesn't make you know, and you're saying it's more story

Steve Kaplan 13:22
character. It's character. It's it's a, it's the great combination of character, premise and theme. So that so that even something as silly as airplane again, has all those three things. Whereas you know, deuce Bigelow, American Gigolo does not? For me. When when people ask me, What's my favorite comedy? I have many favorites. It's like asking what's your favorite kid? But for me, one of my favorite comedies of all time is Groundhog Day, because I think it's it's an amazing combination of comedy, you know, just pure laughs great performance by Andy McDowell and Bill Murray. But it's also about about something it's about what do you do with if you had a million lifetimes? What would you do with it? How would you spend it right? How would you how would you spend your day? How should How should you be mentioned the world and bench is Yiddish word that means marriage. That means a good man that means a person. Yes. And, and so. So to me, it hits on all those cylinders, right? And so I look for a film. For me comedies have to tell something true about being human has to tell something true about what humans you know, struggle with and deal within their lives has to has to be based on some incredible impossibility or implausibility. So that it doesn't have to be a fantasy like Groundhog Day, it can be something as simple as that movie with James Gandolfini and Julia Louis Dreyfus. Enough set, right, right, which is just this really cool, you know, simple, quiet story about a misuse, you know, is kind of struggling, she meets a guy, maybe he's going to be her new boyfriend, at the same time, she meets a client who becomes a best friend. And the client is the ex wife of the new boyfriend, who hates James Gandolfini and keeps on saying terrible things about him, which starts to affect her relationship. Now, is that impossible? No. But it's improbable. Yes. So you take, you take an improbable or impossible situation, and then you let it develop. That's the only time that you can lie in a narrative. And then you let it develop, honestly and organically. So a movie like big, and that's one lie in it. A kid makes a wish on a fortune telling machine he wakes up, he's 30 year old man, could that ever happen? No. But if it did happen, what would happen then? And every step of that movie develops organically and honestly, out of that premise. Now, some people might say, Yeah, but how does he get a job? At a computer at a toy toy company? And the answer to that is because that's the theme. The theme of big is sure. What's the connection between adulthood and childhood? So of course, you want him to meet some guy who works in that field in that area? You know, what would be the point of him meeting a guy who, who owns a gas station, so he ends up working at a gas station? You could do it, but it has nothing to do with the theme of the movie. So that to me, are those three elements that make a great comedy, character, premise and theme?

Alex Ferrari 17:08
Now, can you talk a little bit about what are the keys to making a good comedic lead character? Because there's there's you know, there's normally a leading man or leading woman, but a Kumi a good comedic leading character, what are some of the keys for that?

Steve Kaplan 17:25
I think I think the the main key is the ability to, to not only not take yourself seriously, but make fun of yourself. A great example of that is Jon Hamm. Who, arguably, you know, did a great dramatic job in in Mad Men, but he's able to make fun of himself, he's able to let himself be seen in a ridiculous or negative light and, and not pretend that he's that he's pretending to be that guy, he owns it. So that it's the ability to take the pie in the face, and not pretend it's somebody else.

Alex Ferrari 18:11
But that's, that's more of an actor, but I'm talking about like, on an actual character on a writing standpoint, what makes a goal leading character, comedic leading character, in a story

Steve Kaplan 18:23
yourself, yourself or your your, your mom or your dad. So in other words, when you're writing a character, rather than trying to make this character, the stupidest guy you've ever seen, or the, or the or the clumsiest guy you've ever seen. Just tell the truth about yourself all. All narrative, all fiction is actually a autobiography, your your, your writing about the world that you see your perceptions, your take. And so when you create a character, just make him as human as you are. People like to say, Yeah, but my you know, but my, my character is, is is not that smart. And my answer to that is, so what makes you a genius? Hmm. I mean, you know, what I'd like to say is, you know, people are not as smart as they'd like to think they are. On the other hand, they're not as stupid as they, as they feel they are. Right? Ah, you you might my best examples are the classic sitcoms, all in the family and everybody loves Raymond. Yes, the character of Archie Bunker, how did they come up with that character? Oh, my God. It was it was based on a a British sitcom. Till death us do part in which a bigoted British guy was always always in battle with his liberal son in law. But when Norman Lear wrote that, he didn't give two things. For this British guy he wrote his father, he put his father in the in the character of Archie Bunker. Archie Bunker always used to say stifle when he wanted Edith to stop talking. That was an invention. That's what his father said to her. His father would say to his mother stifle one of the, in one of the first episodes, Archie says to Meathead, he says, You are the laziest white man around and and meathead says That's racist. Well, then you're the you know, and then he makes something else. And it's exactly what his father said to Norman Lear. He just took it from life. And the same thing in terms of Everybody Loves Raymond, in, you know, Ray Romanos Italian, but Phil Rosenthal, who wrote the pilot, and was the executive producer is Jewish. That mother, it's his mother. That father is his father. Yes, they they, he used some of the autobiographical elements from Ray Romano, his comedy, but he doesn't live in, in Ray Romano skin, he doesn't walk in his shoes. He's he lives in his own skin. And so he offered his own family as the as the grist for that comedy mill. So how do you create a great character? Look in the mirror, and and, and if you're, if your mirror isn't wide enough, then go home, go home for Christmas or Thanksgiving, and look in the mirror but take a selfie with all those people behind. Look, when we get together at family gatherings with our cousins. What are we laughing? We're laughing at our family we're laughing at her and and how crazy they are. Just Just own it, just share it. The hardest thing in the world is to give up the veneer of respectability and normal sake. Yes. I mean, you know, we all want to appear smart and capable. And this and that. And we know deep in our heart of hearts, how truly messed up and how broken and how crazy we are. But we want to hide that at all times. In comedy. We don't hide anymore. We just, we just let it out.

Alex Ferrari 22:23
And it being you have to be authentic is what you're saying and be vulnerable as as a writer.

Steve Kaplan 22:29
Yeah. And as George Burns once said, The secret of success in show business is authenticity. And the minute you learn how to fake it, you've got it made.

Alex Ferrari 22:41
Very true. Very true. And no, I heard a quote I actually used in one of my podcasts the other day is like your best the best friend you have in Hollywood is someone who stabbed you in the face. And I was like, wow, that's that was such a great. That's I had to use it. It's great, great light. Now Now let me ask you How does comedy structure differ from dramatic structure? Because we were beaten in with the you know, this, you know, dramatic structure. But there isn't a lot of talk about how comedic structure is different?

Steve Kaplan 23:14
Well, when you're talking about structure, you're talking about a three act structure or Michael Haig has his six turning points. It's not what's what's different about the the comic hero's journey, as it were, from the hero's journey. And I use that term only because

Alex Ferrari 23:35
you have a book called The comics, comics hero's journey,

Steve Kaplan 23:40
which my friend Chris Vogler wrote the writers journey, and I called him up and I said, Chris, I'm ripping you off, but it's with love. I'm taking your title, and I'm making fun of it. But out of love, yes. And so So I think one of the differences is, when creating when creating a structure in a comedy, it, like I say, is that you get to make up crap, make up shit once, and then you have to play it, play it straight and play it honestly. So if this weird thing really happened, if I'm in this weird situation, what would happen then? So So rather than thinking about plot, you're thinking about character, you're following the character through the narrative as opposed to and let's throw this at the character that the character so in one sense, dramatic structure is a character you know, heroes have to be thrown obstacles, otherwise they'll just win, right? But think about us think about people. We can't even go we can't even get out of the house on top. let alone have an obstacle thrown at us.

Alex Ferrari 25:06
You're right, you're right. Like not being able to get a cup of coffee. It's It's night. There's no, I didn't ask for soy I asked for whole milk. Ah, the whole days gone.

Steve Kaplan 25:16
Right? So So rather than thinking in terms of, okay, we've got to throw this obstacle at them, we have to have this villain. What you notice from watching a lot of comedies, is that you don't need villains. You don't need antagonists, in comedies, sometimes there are simply because of the structure the story, but you don't need them. Who's the antagonist? In Groundhog Day? It's himself. Yes. He has to he has to evolve from himself who's the antagonist? In 40 Year Old Virgin? There is none no one's trying to stop him from getting laid.

Alex Ferrari 25:55
He has a breakthrough his own thing

Steve Kaplan 25:58
fact. In fact, everybody is hell bent trying to help him. Right. So so so there's there's a number of differences in in a dramatic structure. You have a hero who has all the skills they need to to do whatever they need to do. Bruce Willis in Die Hard. No, he walks on class with with no shoes and he kills off. He kills like a dozen bad guys and, and he's any he has wisecracks all the way throughout. He's got all the skills in the world. And so you have to keep on figuring out, how can I make it harder on him and harder on him. Whereas in a comic structure, your hero starts off with a minus a negative, they're broken, they have a hole inside them that they don't know. They're not aware of. So in the beginning of a comic story, your character thinks that they're fine. We in the audience can tell, well, that guy, Phil Connors, in Groundhog Day, he's a jerk. That guy, Andy in 40 Year Old Virgin, he said, dweep he needs to you know, meet a girl. But they think everything's going okay. They don't want to rock the boat. And when something happens to to rock their boat, the first thing I tried to do is they go into denial, it's not happening, or they are they desperately want to go back to the normal world that they think is working for them, that we that we see is not. And then what happens over the course of the structure. As they, as these broken people who start their stories off with, with damaged or absent relationships, they gather families around themselves. And so and so everybody, every character, every hero character in a comedy is is forming a kind of dysfunctional family around themselves to help them through their transformation. And as and when they get to the end, they there's usually a a segment in which there is and this this is similar in in dramas, there's an all is lost moment, right? But what's what's why that's so important for comedy, is that people sometimes forget that the most important moment in a comedy is the pain is the loss is how characters deal with that pain. And that loss, as opposed to well, let's just make it funny. Well, here's another funny thing. Oh, here's another funny thing. Wouldn't it be funny if we do this? So wouldn't it be funny if we do that? So So part of the part of the difference of the structure is that in the hero's journey, the hero goes off into the unknown world, and brings back in elixir that will heal the world, right? In the comic hero's journey, the hero, the comic hero is thrown inadvertently or against their better judgment or against their will into a world they don't want to be in. And as a result, have to transform and thereby heal themselves to be to be able to be better able to be a person, a mensch in the world. So they're not really changing the world as much as they are changing themselves. So all comedy is transformational.

Alex Ferrari 29:34
That makes amazing sense. A character

Steve Kaplan 29:37
in a comedy doesn't realize that they have to change, but they have to change because the world as they knew it is taken away from them. They're they're in Oz, or or they're, they're a 30 year old men when they're really 12 years old, or they're living the same day over and over again. Or they just find themselves in In a weird situation, and what do they have to do they have to, they have to become different, even though they don't want to become different, and over the course, so another difference in structure is that in a, in a dramatic structure, your hero has a goal in the beginning of the movie, I'm going to catch the killer, or I'm going to solve this mystery. Or I'm going, you know, what is Luke say in the beginning Star Wars, he says, I want to, I want to be a pilot, I want to join the rebellion. So what happens by the end of Star Wars, he saves the rebellion. He's a pilot. But in a comedy, your hero has a short sighted goal. Their initial goal is is wrongheaded or short sighted. What is a? What does? The kid in big one, he just wants to be big enough to ride on a on a ride at a carnival to be with the girl of his dreams? Right? What does Phil Conners want? He just wants to get a job? Well, you just want no in the beginning. He just wants to get a better job at a bigger new station where he can be a weatherman, in a bigger station. You're now in 40 Year Old Virgin, what does Andy want, all he wants is to be left alone. Because these days are filled. He's you know, he's playing Halo. He's practicing the tuba. He's painting his little figurines. He's happy. He thinks he's happy, right? So. So what happens in a comedy is that your characters have a discovered goal, a goal that wasn't apparent to them, or us in the audience at the beginning of the movie, that later becomes something they discover as they're transforming. And, and so, Midway or a half, you know, three quarters the way through, or 40% of the way through, they discover that they want something else they want something new, and then they put all their attention and focus to try to get that discovered goal.

Alex Ferrari 32:07
That's Yes. That's a great great, great answer, sir. To to a question. Yes, the heroes, the comics hero's journey. It's it's quite it's all there. It's all there. It's all here. It's all in here.

Steve Kaplan 32:19
I'm available on Amazon.

Alex Ferrari 32:23
Do you have the audio book yet?

Steve Kaplan 32:25
No, no, I'm even though I have a face. That's right. That's great for Radio. I'm not. Audio books are people have asked me about audio books. But what they don't realize is that you have to pay unless you're James Comey and somebody asked you to make one. You have to pay to make an audio book and then your publisher has to flog it. It's not it's actually it's not as not as easy as people like to think it is also having to stay in the studio and read this entire freakin thing. Oh, man.

Alex Ferrari 33:03
Um, yeah, I know, I know. You're doing the audio version. I am doing the audio version of my book. But I'm a podcaster and I've been playing for a long time and I have the gear. Yeah, so I'm doing it but it is. It's not like this voice I when I'm reading the book, it's not like Hey guys, how you doing? It's not that it's in today. So I have my my audiobook voice

Steve Kaplan 33:25
which is your your like the NPR girls on the SNL sketch. today so we have what he

Alex Ferrari 33:32
calls that similar to that but not completely sweaty balls. What a great what a great bit. Um, no, I wanted to I wanted to touch upon a genre of comedy which, and I just want to hear your thoughts on it fish out of water, which is such a great comedic world to be thrown into like the crocodile, Dundee's Beverly Hills, cops, you know, those kinds of things. Any tips on what, what writers can do to do because I haven't seen a good fish out of water? Comedy in a long time. Honestly, what was the last good one you saw?

Steve Kaplan 34:09
Well, I mean, there's there's there's been a dearth of great. A great film comedy most, almost everything that's really good. Or a lot of everything that's really good is happening in on TV or streaming?

Alex Ferrari 34:23
Yeah. Yeah, there's that's very true. Yeah. The greater the Grayson, Grayson, Frankie's of the wild,

Steve Kaplan 34:29
I guess, I guess, you know, Spy with Melissa McCarthy. She was a fish out of that would be Yeah, that was funny as hell, Todd. You know, for me, for me. We are all fish out of water. We're swimming around. It's everything seems great. And then we're forced as as, as Amy Sherman Palladino wrote, we're forced out through through a hole that's smaller than a lady's purse. And we're we're thrust into a world we didn't make we didn't ask for. And we don't know how the hell we got there, we can't do anything. We are a fish out of water. Our our whole lives are fish out of water. We, we like to pretend that we're in water, you know, we're swimming in our waters, but for the most part, everybody is a tale of a fish out of water. In fact, that's why that's why comedians who are outsiders in their culture are so successful. That's why Canadians

Alex Ferrari 35:38
in America, right,

Steve Kaplan 35:39
yeah, because because they're, they're, you know,

Alex Ferrari 35:43
perspectives.

Steve Kaplan 35:44
They can't fight the in, you know, the encroaching American culture, but they're, they're kind of outsiders to it. African Americans, New Jews, you know, all the all the ethnic comedians who came up in the 20s and 30s, and 40s. They're there in a way outsiders, and so and so in that way, everybody stories, a fish out of

Alex Ferrari 36:09
water. Very, very true. Now, there's a bit when you

Steve Kaplan 36:13
when you when you take a situation in which you tear somebody away from what his normal world is, you create a fish out of water, Bill Murray's a fish out of water is living the same day over and over again, the character big is a fish out of water. So a fish out of water just doesn't mean a a nerd, gets caught in a space capsule and has to be the world's first astronaut, right, they've actually made that movie. But that's not the only way to that's not the only way to tell that story.

Alex Ferrari 36:49
Got it? Got it. So so you're what you're saying because I'm calling it more of like when I say fish out of water, it's more like the Beverly Hills Cop, literally the toy cop in Beverly Hills completely out of out of his place. But you're saying that there's elements of that in almost every story. And one way shape or form almost especially Yeah.

Steve Kaplan 37:06
Well in a comedy once the characters have have experienced what I call the WTF moment. They are, in fact, fish out of water who at first desperately tried to swim back to two more familiar more familiar waters, Tropic Thunder, you have a bunch of give a bunch of actors pretending to be in Vietnam, the director is is literally getting punched out by the studio head. And he gets this idea given to him by by Nick Nulty to bring everybody out into country to have them experience what it would be like if they were really in country in Vietnam and two minutes in he gets blown up and they're they're stranded and they have to make their way back to the extraction point to get back to their hotels right they're automatically fish out of water right they're forced to be soldiers when they don't want to be soldiers they're actors. And and only only one of them Jay bearish only one of them's actually read the manual, so he knows how to read a map. So So I it would be hard for me to think of a movie in which your character isn't a fish out of water at some point.

Alex Ferrari 38:35
That's a very good analogy. Very good. Now, romantic comedies, which is a whole other sub genre of what we're talking about. That's a whole other beast. In your opinion, what makes good romantic comedies work because when it's good, it's really good. You know, when When Harry Met Sally, Sleepless in Seattle, you know, any Hall, right? Those I mean, when they work, they're just hitting on all pistons. But there's been a lot of bad ones too.

Steve Kaplan 39:06
Well, the the I remembering I can't remember the name, but they all have Catherine Hegel. And, oh, and the guy, the guy from 300. But they

Alex Ferrari 39:20
Yeah, Jared, Jared. I'm Tara Butler, Gerald burger.

Steve Kaplan 39:23
They all they all feature Heather and Hegel and Gerald Butler. And I remember watching this movie in about 15 minutes in, she's up a tree, spying on him, I'm thinking, Oh, that'll happen. Here's, here's the problem with bad romantic comedy movies. They think that romantic comedy is about getting to people who are destined to be together. And then because they're destined to be together, you have to come up with ways of keeping them Apart, let's just come up with ways of keeping them apart. But that's not really the problem that people have in relationships. People don't have the problem of keeping you apart. The problem is how do you stay together? And not kill each other? Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

So the so the really good romantic comedies are, you know, I guess I would put sleep as in Seattle as an exception, because that's, that's really a romantic comedy in which to faded people who are a part of the entire right away to figure out a way to get together, right. But but you know, but they start off on opposite ends of the country. You don't have to create an artificial obstacle to keep them apart. But But movies like When Harry Met Sally pretty, pretty well. Yeah, pretty woman I, to me, that's a really a great example of the genre on I'm thinking more like 500 Days of Summer.

Alex Ferrari 41:04
Yes. Any haul,

Steve Kaplan 41:08
any haul, even even about a boy, which is not a not a romantic comedy, insofar as Hugh Grant is going to be romantically involved with that boy, but it is a romantic comedy, because it's about him connecting with somebody else besides himself,

Alex Ferrari 41:26
or Notting Hill, it doesn't matter. We're not or Notting Hill, that's a

Steve Kaplan 41:29
credit. And it's all about not how do you overcome these artificial obstacles? It's how do you figure out how to stay together with the obstacles that are there to begin with, you're two different human beings, your your, your you have different DNA, you your molecules rotate and vibrate at different frequencies. You know, the real problem in relationships is once we figure out how to swipe right and swipe left, you know is that when we meet? How do you how do you stay together? I mean, because 50% of all marriages end in divorce. So that's it. So staying together is not easy. You don't have to create an obstacle, you have to figure out how do we stay together? How do we figure out how to be one in a pair as opposed to the one that we know? So? So that's that's what I think a good romantic comedy is a good romantic comedy explores how we are in relationships and what we do in relationships and why we're so bad at relationships as opposed to, well, these two people are just gonna love each other unless we put some kind of wall between them. They're just gonna break through that wall and rough like animals. No, no, there, you know, people, people have a hard time being in the same room with each other. How do you get past that?

Alex Ferrari 43:01
I mean, When Harry Met Sally is a really great example of that. Yeah, that whole exploration was something Nora Ephron was probably one of the geniuses in the genre without question. And even Notting Hill, it's about it's not. They have obstacles, but the obstacles are just what pack what baggage, they bring each each of them bring to the to the relationship. Julia Roberts is a movie star. He's, he's a book store owner. How are we going to make this work? We love each other. But how are we going to stay together? It's about how do we stay together?

Steve Kaplan 43:30
Exactly. As opposed to how do we get them together? How do we keep them apart? For 90 minutes? Right. One of the examples that I use in my workshops when people ask me this question, I showed them a couple of scenes from Dan in Real Life, which was, yeah, yeah. Steve correct. And and Dan, in real life. This Steve Carell. So a widower, he's been depressed for two years, he meets this wonderful woman, Julia Benesch, in a bookstore and they chat, they talk. And he goes back to because they're having like a family reunion at this, you know, unbelievable. Perfect house with the perfect family, the perfect everything. And he goes back, and and everybody can tell that he's kind of hepped up about something and they say, what happened? He says, I might have met a girl, and then his brother who's Dane Cook. And by the way, when you're in a movie, Dane Cook is out acting you you're in trouble. I just want to say that Dane Cook introduces his fiancee and it turns out to be Julia pinos from the bookstore. And at that moment, the movie goes wrong. At that moment, Steve corral. Ly lies and says, Oh, Hi, what's your name? Okay, here's the result of that. Later on in the movie, about That's 40 minutes later, because they're trying to pretend that they don't know each other, he ends up fully clothed, in a shower pretending to take a shower. If your character ends up in a shower fully clothed, you've made a wrong turn. People don't do that. It doesn't happen in real life. Here's what would have been a better turn for them. She comes in the door. And he says, Well, we actually know each other. Well. She's the girl I met in the bookstore. And she might be embarrassed for a second. And then he would say, No, no, but now I can see Dane Cook while you love her because she's great. Congratulations, my brother. Alright, and so the movie becomes, how long? Can you fool yourself into thinking that you're happy for your brother? As opposed to really wanting her for yourself? And that becomes, to my mind much a much more interesting movie than winding up in a shower, fully clothed, getting wet, because Wouldn't it be funny if I had to? If I had to hide? Why is he hiding? Right? So he's talking to his brother's fiancee? Why is he hiding in a in a shower and somebody turns the shower on.

Alex Ferrari 46:20
And it's interesting, because they, a lot of times when when I feel like when writers and directors and even actors and performers when they, they they they don't have that, that hold on story, structure, or story or like what you're talking about, or character or character. It's exactly what be believable for the character, right? They then automatically lean on slapstick. They write and they lean on like, how can we get a gag out here? Like, oh, Wouldn't it be funny?

Steve Kaplan 46:47
Wouldn't it be funny if Wouldn't it be funny if there's a there's a great story about the making of Groundhog Day. And in one of the earlier drafts in Groundhog Day, when he wakes up, and it's the third day and it's third time in a row? And he's is it really happening? Am I going crazy. And in the script, they have him shaving his head into a mohawk, destroying the room setting fire to half the room painting the other room and de cloak colors. He goes to sleep. Six o'clock Sonny and Cher on the radio, he wakes up the same day. And they looked at that they look at those rushes and Harold Ramis. And I'm guessing I'm guessing Bill Murray or the producers looked at the looked at each other and said, Why would he cut his hair into a mohawk? Why don't we do that?

Alex Ferrari 47:45
I mean, visually, visually, it's funny, but it doesn't work.

Steve Kaplan 47:48
How well how does it help? It doesn't help this right? Why would this character do that? And so at great expense, they reshot the scene. And all that happens in the scene, if you remember is he breaks a pen. Right puts one down on the floor, and he puts one on the nightstand. And he wakes up the next morning and the pencil is whole. And he knows it's happening.

Alex Ferrari 48:12
Right? And it's so brilliantly simple,

Steve Kaplan 48:15
simple, honest and direct. As opposed to Wouldn't it be funny if and from that point on and Steve tap Alaskey, who has his own podcast relates that that from that moment on, the question always was what would they really do? what would really happen? In fact, at the end of Groundhog Day, there was this whole debate, because he ended McDowell wins him in the bachelor auction and takes him home. And there was this whole debate on how the last scene should go. Did Did they have sex? What happened? Did you know what he wake up? Like naked? Would he wake up? And they they, rather than thinking, well, wouldn't it be funny if we do this? They they put it to a vote. The entire cast and crew got to vote on what would happen that night. What would happen with these two characters? Because they were no longer fictional characters. They were real. They were human beings. And what would these two human beings do? And that's why spoiler at the next day, it turns out that all he did was fall asleep. And she you know, Andy McNally says, he just fell asleep. And he says, It was the end of a really long day. Just so

Alex Ferrari 49:34
brilliant. And the song is the song is different. Pop song. It was it was it was great. Oh, such I got to watch that movie again. It's so great. I do want to also touch upon dark comedies. Yes, specifically one of my favorite dark comedies Heather's which was arguably a comedy. Yeah, but it is. It is funny as hell, and you can't make that movie today, like that movie would never in a million years be made today.

Unknown Speaker 50:06
Why can't you? I think there's a lot of PC

Alex Ferrari 50:09
stuff that wouldn't get through like, I mean, like when I stopped bleeding,

Steve Kaplan 50:12
just just kill it just killing

Alex Ferrari 50:16
this school kid in the school killings with a gun in the school. I mean, there's a lot of stuff that just wouldn't fly today. Like when I saw Blazing Saddles for the first time, I was like, well, there's never there's no way in hell that movie could be made today. Like it just, just just not gonna happen. And I saw this years ago, but even then, and then Bharat showed up, I was like, Well, okay, apparently everything. Um, but, but with Heather's specifically that film, which is a it's a it's a genius piece of work, in my opinion. How, what are tips that you could give writers on how to write good dark comedies? Because again, I haven't seen a lot of good dark comedies lately, either. I mean, when was the last good dark comedy you saw? Um, it's a rarity in the genre. Now.

Steve Kaplan 51:01
I'm guessing. I'm thinking about things like wag the dog.

Alex Ferrari 51:08
Still 2025 years ago? Yeah. Dr. Strangelove,

of course.

Steve Kaplan 51:16
I think I think the the, the key I mean, listen, Breaking Bad is a dark comedy. So many ways it is it was really bad. Ben is a dark comedy and TV, the TV there is more of these existence. The Sopranos is a dark comedy. I, I think I think besides the fact that that, you know, it's one thing to make a television episode for $2.3 million. And it's another thing to make a movie for 40 to $200 million. But I think the the thing you have to do is you have to know what, who you're making fun of and what you're making fun of. And you have to punch up. Don't punch down.

Alex Ferrari 52:04
That's why Heather's was so smart. A punched so up above the genre of high school. Right comedy.

Steve Kaplan 52:11
Well, it's also it's also you're there. You're you're not making? Listen, we're all living in a dark comedy. All right, we're all we're all with. No, but not just today's political situation. We're all whistling past the graveyard. That's what all that's what all black comedy is. Oh, I guess this is also 20 years ago, A Fish Called Wanda is kind of a Dark

Alex Ferrari 52:36
Avatar. Yeah. And, and

Steve Kaplan 52:40
what it all comes down to is as we're whistling past the graveyard, we're trying to make fun of the things that terrify us. So, to me, the way to make a dark comedy is to focus on how the people are coping with it. How are they coping with it? Because in in a metaphorical sense, we're all struggling in a dark comedy. And, and the the end of all of dark comedies is not too funny, huh? You know, none of us as they say none of us get out of this alive. So or as Clint Eastwood says, in the Unforgiven you know, we all get what's coming to us. Yeah. So so so the the idea is that you're you're not pretending when you say that there's Death and Dismemberment out there waiting for you? How are you? How do people deal with that? How do they react to that? What happens to the living people as they grapple with these issues of death and destruction and extinction? So that so that if you're, if you're making a dark comedy, honestly, you're just finding what's ridiculous and absurd. In in what in what we're doing. To to deal with the fact that we're living you know, we're on this blue cinders spinning through a void. We don't know where we came from, we don't know where we're going to. And yet, we're gonna wake up tomorrow and have frozen yogurt. Because frozen yogurt at least make it a little better.

Alex Ferrari 54:23
You know, we are the only creature on the planet that knows that we will not be here eventually.

Steve Kaplan 54:28
Right? And what do we do based on that? Do we all sit home weeping softly writing haiku? No. We wake up, and we say Thai. Thai food

Alex Ferrari 54:39
Thai. Don't do it today. I think Thai,

Steve Kaplan 54:42
Thai, Thai or, or like dark chocolate, dark chocolate of

Alex Ferrari 54:48
course. 80% of the time, Starbucks every day Starbucks.

Steve Kaplan 54:52
I'm gonna spend 325 Because Starbucks will make my eventual descent into death and entropy, you'll make it a little bit more forth. That's great.

Alex Ferrari 55:05
That's amazing. Um, now another question I have for you is, and I'm curious to hear your answer on this the difference between comedy and funny, because there is a difference. There is a major difference.

Steve Kaplan 55:19
Absolutely. I start a lot of my workshops workshops off with a comedy perception test. I give them seven different versions of a man slipping on a banana peel, man slipping on a banana peel man and top hat slipping, man slipping on a banana peel after kicking the dog and slipping on a banana peel after losing his job. Blind man slipping on a banana peel blind man's dog slipping. Man slipping on a banana peel and dying. And then I asked them Okay, so like which one do you think is the funniest? The least funniest, the most comic and the least comic? And they'll go, somebody will go well, what's the difference? And I'll go Excellent question. I'm glad you asked. Select which one you think is the funniest, the least funniest, the most comic and the least comic? I don't answer the question. I just say select which one you think is they couldn't be different? They could be the same? And so then we'll start with, Okay, how many of you here whether it's 20 people or 300? People? How many of you here thought a man slipping on a banana peel was the funniest how many people thought the man slipping on a banana peel after losing his job was the funniest. And so we'll go through all of that. And then at the end, I'll go and I'll say. So here's the answer to which one of these is the funniest. You're all right. You're all correct. Yeah, it's like it's like, don't you feel affirmed? It's like the 60s.

Alex Ferrari 56:47
We all get a participation trophy.

Steve Kaplan 56:50
Because funny is subjective, completely. What you think is funny is different from what you think is funny. And you're both right. But comedy is not subjective comedy is the art of telling what's true, and specifically telling what's true about human beings. So that so that, even if I'm even if I'm creating a moment, with a character that you are not laughing at, if I'm telling the truth about a human being without white washing them, or would that just ignoring some of their defects? It's comedy, even though you might not laugh, at the end of Dr. Strangelove, when he's when slim pickins is writing the bomb down to what we know is our entire extinction. Talk about black comedy. There some people in the audience laugh there's a nervous tenor. Many people don't. But it's not a dramatic moment. Yes, he's got it right. It's a comedic moment, even if you're not laughing. So there's a difference between comedy and funny. Funny is what makes you laugh. And it's different from it for everybody. But comedy is telling the truth, telling the truthful story of a less than perfect person struggling against insurmountable odds with that many of the required skills and tools with which to win yet never giving up hope. And because of that, what I tried to tell writers and directors and performers and executives is don't chase funny. Because Because you're chasing a fraction of the audience. If it works, people will laugh. If it doesn't work, people won't laugh, then then then change it after your previous but tell the truth. Tell the truth in a truthful way, in an unexpected and yet. And yet ultimately. All the way authentic way thanks. And comedy will occur. Also make yourself laugh. I mean, you you're a human being. Right. So if you're not laughing, right, chances are, don't try to out think the audience don't try to think what will they find funny? Well, wouldn't it be funny if I did this? Use your own sense of humor only guided only kind of limited by telling the story honestly. And truthfully, through character and theme.

Alex Ferrari 59:28
I'm going to ask you a deeper question here. When you say and I think this is this is a question that will go through all all all writing, all storytelling, all art in general, is the ability to be honest, be authentic, be truthful, and what stops an artist from doing so? Because as an artist myself and the work that I do, you know, one of the reasons why this podcast has done as well as it has over the years is because I'm completely authentic, and I asked authentically And I want truth. And that's why people gravitated towards it. What stops the artists from doing so? Is it just pure fear of people making fun of them, or of you know, things like that. But I've always found that when I'm honest about my work, whether it be my writing, whether it be like my new book, which is as honest as I could possibly be a film that I direct, when I'm honest about it, that's when that's when the magic is, but it's scarier.

Steve Kaplan 1:00:31
Well, I'm not sure that there's one answer to that. But I think part of that answer is, is not trusting that your story is good enough that they are your that your point of view is good enough. worrying that other people won't enjoy it. worrying that somebody who really knows finances but doesn't know art is telling you I don't think it's funny. Okay, then then I'll look for somebody who does and you won't produce it or you won't. You won't be my agent. But but but I think it's it comes out of a fear is part of it. But it comes out of the sense that that there's the sense that on not enough. For me, a perfect example is the I'm going to pronounce her name wrong. It's the director who directed enough said friends with money. Please give Nicole holofcener Okay. I don't know. I think I think I'm mispronouncing her name. She She. She makes she makes these beautifully crafted. Beautiful movies, comic movies, and there's very little slapstick there's there's no there's there's no big gags there's no you know, there's not a lot of sex scenes. to 13 year olds are not drawn to her movies. And yet, her movies are wonderful. But it's it has a kind of a limited viewership so far. And I think people are worried that if they don't put in the big dick choke, that, that they won't make money or they're they won't sell or, or or the studio will be disappointed. So there's there's fear. And sometimes it's a justified fear. Because, I mean, how many five star restaurants are there out there? And how many McDonald's are out there out there? So if you're, if you're studying to be a chef, should you go to McDonald's and see what's made them so successful?

Alex Ferrari 1:02:57
Different, that are model different to everything?

Steve Kaplan 1:03:00
Yeah, I mean, you, you, you have to strive towards your own sense of excellence. And know that that doesn't translate into a into an economic model, necessarily. Wow.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:17
You've just honestly you've kind of blown my mind a little bit because it just there was that light bulb that just went off in my head when you said, if you're if you're trying to be a chef, if you're training to be a chef, why would you go to McDonald's to see how because they're very successful. Yeah, but it's a different kind of success, as opposed to why wouldn't you go to a Gordon Ramsay restaurant and and see how he's doing it and why you're fine dining restaurant that has the five

Steve Kaplan 1:03:42
let's not say Gordon Ramsay, because I don't think that fair. It's still that.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:47
Fair. It's one of the few chefs I know. I'm Wolfgang. I hate you you omelet? Yeah, exactly. But, but I think one of the issues with with Hollywood in general is to so many people go to watch studio movies, that are financial vehicles, they're made for money. They're not made, particularly for story. Every once in a while someone sticks sneaks in a store. Every once in a while you get one of these, you know that's has money behind it has big stars and has a story, but they're becoming rarer and rarer. much rarer.

Steve Kaplan 1:04:22
But you know what the studio system does so well, is taking stories that already work and visualizing them correct. That's why the that's why the Marvel Knights do so well. Yeah, because those stories were great when they were 10 cent comics. And these great craftsmen and technicians and great actors, visualize them for us. But the story's already there. The characters are already there and and to give them credit, they don't screw the characters up. The Marvel characters were screwed up human beings to start are off with when they were 10 and 12 cent comics and they're still screwed up human beings. All the movie said was honor that as opposed to justice DC movies in which they can figure out that the stories came out of where we do right. Where the Justice League we do right because that's the right thing to do. Guys not enough really, really. And so they they kind of veer veer between let's go as dark as possible. And let's or let's have lots of wisecracks they still have I haven't seen Aqua Man I understand Aqua Man is a little bit better

Alex Ferrari 1:05:37
than but Wonder Woman was wonderful. I thought Wonder Woman was wonderful. Wonder Woman was good. From the DC world

Steve Kaplan 1:05:44
that is from the, from the DC world. I mean, it was it was female empowerment. And it was in a in a period. That wasn't the modern day. So I think they they kind of solved it in a good way. But you know, I think what what what movies do so well is take existing stories, and and help us see them for who they are like Lord of the Rings. Whereas if you want to see a really good movie, take a look at an independent see what's coming out of Sundance. See, see what somebody has made? That wasn't made through the studio system, but made because this is the story I want to tell like eighth grade. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:06:29
I haven't seen it yet. But I hear it's amazing. Oh,

Steve Kaplan 1:06:31
it's it's so good. And, and it obviously or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm totally wrong about this. But it's but to me, it obviously wasn't made after a story conference at Sony.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:44
No, I'm almost positive. That's not since one of your books is called the hidden tools of comedy. Can you give us a few hidden tools?

Steve Kaplan 1:06:53
Well, I've already given you a couple. Okay, we start off with, with the paradigm what I call the comedy equation, comedies about an ordinary guy or gal, Jackie Gleason used to call him a Moke struggling against insurmountable odds without many of the required skills and tools with which to win yet never giving up hope. Now, from that paradigm, we draw usable, practical tools, the tool of winning comedy gives your characters that permission to win. Not that they're trying to be funny, but they're trying to when I do I do an exercise in my in my workshop, I asked three people who I make sure are not performers. And I tell them that they're lawyers, and the most important court case, in the in their careers began in a courthouse, four blocks away five minutes ago. I tell them, I say to them, what what would what what should you do to solve the problem? And they are people in the audience say they should run there? And I'll ask them, What would actors do. And they say, act as we talked about it, they'd create dialogue. So then I tell them, Okay, for muscle memory, just run out the door, your three lawyers, you're five minutes late, four blocks away, run out the door. So they run out the door, then I bring them each individually. And I say, Okay, here's the crazy thing, for some crazy reason. You have to be the second person out the door, don't tell the others now bring each of the three yen out to them, you have to be second. I'll bring them all in. Now, these are not performers. So I bring them all in. And I say most important case of the three lawyers most important case happened starting five minutes ago started five minutes ago in a courthouse four blocks away, go. And what will happen is they'll rush the door, and then begin this odd little path of trying to trying to get through the door. And occasionally somebody will figure it out. But most often I'll have to side coach and say, I give you the permission to do what you need to do in order to win. And what I usually do is I usually pick two big guys and a tiny girl, right? And at some point, one of the big guys gets the idea. Oh, I don't have to be a gentleman picks up the girl throws her outside leaves, so he can be second. It's an experiment. It doesn't work the same way all the time. It doesn't work all the time. But invariably the audience laughs and I'll bring the people back out and I'll say, who directed that? And they'll say no one. And I'll say to the audience, I'm sorry, Directors. I'm sorry. We don't need directors and I'll say who wrote that scene? And they'll say no one oh they'll say you did Mr. Kaplan because now I said I didn't write it. I just set up this situation. What happened at the door? That was that was you. And so I'll say you don't need you don't need directors. You don't even need writers you just need characters who are given the permission to do what they need to do in order to win. Because when they were doing that weird dance at the door, they weren't trying to be funny. They were simply trying to solve a problem and unsolvable problem as it turns out, but simply tried to solve a problem. So rather than trying to be funny, characters are given the permission to do what they need to do in order to win. Which is why when Woody Allen is arguing with some guy on a movie on the line in a movie, he's able to drag Marshall McLuhan out from behind a poster in any Hall to win his arguments.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:34
Brilliant. That was such a brilliant move I love

Steve Kaplan 1:10:37
ya. Although now that I find that that Woody Allen is really a creepy, yes, yes. You know, that's unfortunately, not all the best people are are great artists. And he happens to be one of the not great people. But right. But so, so winning, the idea that comedy gives you the permission to win is one of the tools non hero, not that not a comic, you're not a fool, not the ridiculous person, but simply somebody who lacks some if not all the essential skills and tools with which to win. Straight line wavy line. Most people think of comedians or comics as funny people, and then they're the straight man, the straight men who kind of just set the funny people up to do something funny, right? And, and what what the tool of straight line wavy line does is it recognizes the fact that that's a false dynamic. John Cleese once said that when they started Monty Python, they thought that comedy was watching somebody do something silly. They later came to realize that comedy is watching somebody watch somebody do something silly. watching somebody watched somebody do something silly. So that in in a, in a comic dynamic, you have somebody who's blind to a problem or creating the problem, like Kramer, and somebody who's struggling with the problem, but because they are not here, or they can't solve the problem like Jerry. So if you look at comedy, if you look at sitcoms, you're always seeing a straight line, somebody who's kind of blind to who they are, or what they're doing, like Joey friends, and somebody who kind of notices it, but doesn't quite know exactly how to deal with it, or what to say to it. Like Chandler. And so you have this dynamic. And and the dynamic can switch because it's not about character. It's about focus. Who is the story about at that moment? Who's in focus? And so, so those are some of the tools in the hidden tools of comedy, along with art types, comic premise, metaphoric relationships, a lot of stuff also, so 280 pages of genius

Alex Ferrari 1:12:55
itself, obviously, obviously, sir, I know you haven't mentioned it a few times. But let's talk about you two books that you have out there. The hidden tools of comedy, you

Steve Kaplan 1:13:03
mean, this book? Yes. This book?

Alex Ferrari 1:13:07
Yes, those two books? Yes,

Steve Kaplan 1:13:08
I should mention that.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:11
Tell us about your your older book is the for the book first came out was a hidden tools of comedy, which is done very, very well. So tell us a little bit about that?

Steve Kaplan 1:13:22
Well, like I said, it's a it basically talks about the things that are not taught at AFI, or USC, or NYU. Because people still think comedy is, well, let's do something funny. Let's do some gags. And it talks about the things that actually create, increase or decrease the comedic elements in a scene. And what you can do because it's not about, well, you just born funny. It's about if you give a character skills, if you have them be a hero, you're creating a dramatic moment. And a skill could be something as simple as awareness, kind of so in a character's aware of his situation, that could depress him. That's a dramatic moment. But if a character isn't aware that he's kind of lively, just going along, not realizing how screwed up they are, and how hopeless their situation is. That's a comedic moment. So you can actually increase or decrease the comedic elements in a scene or the dramatic ohms in a scene simply by giving or taking away skills for your character.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:32
Got it. And then your new book, The comedic hero's journey, we've kind of touched upon a lot of elements

Steve Kaplan 1:14:37
that, that basically it kind of is a riff on the, on the hero's journey, and talks about so what happens in the comic hero's journey, what what differences are there, what tweaks you have to make and how is that journey different either either in a great way or in a subtle way different from The dramatic hero's journey. And it's, it's, as I say, it's serious story structure for fabulously funny film.

Alex Ferrari 1:15:08
Now, I also heard you had a few workshops coming up. Yeah,

Steve Kaplan 1:15:12
um, what one of the things I do is I go around and do these, for the most part, their two day workshops. And you can find out all about them on my website, Kaplan comedy calm that's Kaplan with a K comedy with a C, because if I spelled comedy with a K, that would make me a hack. So it's got to be Kaplan comedy all one word.com. So we're doing one in Belgium, in Brussels on February 16, and 17th. I don't speak Belgium, but they speak comedy. So I think we'll be okay. And then I'm in Los Angeles in March, march 2, and third. And I'm in London on April 27, and 28th. And I think I might be going to New York or San Francisco later in the year, but those still have to be worked out.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:06
That's, that's amazing. And because you mentioned Belgium, in Brussels. What, how does comedy because comedy doesn't travel well, what's funny in one country is not funny in another. It does. But if you but funny doesn't a comedy does.

Steve Kaplan 1:16:23
Right? It you know what the language may be may be different. I've taught these workshops in Singapore, in Melbourne, in Paris, in Kiev, the language may be different. culture, customs government may be different. But people are the same. We all were all born. We all go to school. We all have secrets from our parents. Our parents have secrets from us. We all want to fall in love or get as much love however we define it any way we can. We have relationships or married we have kids. We have parents we have uncle's need. Human beings are the same all over the world even though we might use different words for different objects, even though some customs might be different. But but people are the people stay the same. And what I've noticed going around the world is that I can show a clip from an American movie, or or a American television show and people laugh because they understand what's happening to those people in that situation. And and and so so there's people all over the world can laugh at Groundhog Day, even if they don't speak English as the first language.

Alex Ferrari 1:17:44
Fair enough. Now I'm gonna ask a few questions. Last questions. I asked all my guests. Okay, what advice about Libra?

Steve Kaplan 1:17:50
My favorite color blue, long walks on the beach. I was born a small

Alex Ferrari 1:17:55
child.

Steve Kaplan 1:17:58
I was born in a very early age.

Alex Ferrari 1:18:01
That's great. That was actually that's a great line. That's a great.

Steve Kaplan 1:18:06
That's my that's from my palm reading. I see you are born in a very early age.

Alex Ferrari 1:18:13
I have to tell you, I will steal that for parties. Okay. Now, what advice would you give a screenwriter or comedic writer wanting to break into the business today?

Steve Kaplan 1:18:23
Okay, I would recommend three things. Buy your first five books obviously, that's actually not my recommendation. But thank you for thank you for putting that out there. I would recommend three things. One, take an improv class. Even if you don't want to perform even if you're not looking to be on SNL, or part of UCB. Comedy is an actor centric art form. It's about the character. So the some of the best training you can get is to be is to be in a class where you pretend you practice being a character seeing through a character's eyes hearing through a character's ears. So that's the first thing. The second thing I would say is that as you're writing, and we're talking about screenwriters, right, yes. Hear your stuff read out loud. You cannot figure out what's going what's happening just based upon you and your screen or you and your your legal pad. You have to get people in a room halftone reading parts, half of them just listening. Tape it because you're going to go into a coma at certain parts where it's not working and listen to what is happening when human beings say your words in context. I also I also suggest that you have wine and cheese,

Alex Ferrari 1:19:48
much wine and plenty one plenty,

Steve Kaplan 1:19:51
plenty one, but you have to you have to hear it read out loud because comedy doesn't exist in your head or in a vacuum and Third thing is, is that no one ever got a job because you they have, they have a great resume with a great font. It's, it's all about who you know, and who you have gone to college with, or went to summer camp with. So one of the things I tell people to do is, is all the stories that they've heard about, about some guy who, who went to a dentist, and the dentist also did the teeth of Jim Carrey, and they got those things are obnoxious, but something like that does happen. Oh, yeah. So that, so that, what you need to do is you need to make a list of everybody who you've ever known, or might have known or stood in back of a line at Starbucks. And you want to make sure that you you maintain those connections, and you want to maintain, you want to know that you have no idea where your next job is coming from. So your job is to be out there in the universe, say yes to the universe, I don't want to go to the screening co you don't know who you're gonna meet, I want to take this class, take it, you don't know who you're gonna meet. Because your next job is going to come from somebody who knows you. And that's not networking, just networking for networking sake, like, you know, the when you're at a party, and somebody is looking over your shoulder to see who else came in the door, because you don't have any idea who's going to help you. And the best way to figure out who's going to help you is for you to help other people. Be on a film crew. Yep. Help out. Be part of a reading. You know, hold it, hold, hold a microphone, hold a boom, and see where it leads you. Because there are a million ways to break into the business. But you can't break into the business sitting at home wondering how am I going to break into the business?

Alex Ferrari 1:21:57
I was talking to Daniel NOF, the creator of Carnival, and and he said he's like ours is the only business that has larceny in it. How do you break into the business? How to? And he's like, it's true. Like you never like how do I break into the cookie business? Like no one says that. People always want to break in or, you know, how do I break through the door? It's always larceny involved. Breaking into this business.

Steve Kaplan 1:22:23
Well, I'll say I'll say there's one other thing. Yeah, they're there. It's really simple. But there are there are only two rules. Rule one, number one be brilliant. Yes. Rule number two, let people know about it.

Alex Ferrari 1:22:41
That's, that's it, man that

Steve Kaplan 1:22:43
said, if you've got a story, and you've written a script, and nobody wants it, turn into a novel. Make it up, make it a podcast, write a blog, get it out there. Let people know about it. Because you don't know what's going to happen. I had a client, a guy I worked with on a trip to Australia through through Screen Australia and film Victoria. And he wrote this wonderful script about a guy on the Asperger's spectrum, who was who came up with a way of of getting relationship for himself. And he wrote the script. I thought the script was funny. Nobody wanted it. Especially Australia is the kind of place where you get government funding. And the government doesn't want to fund silly comedies. They want to fund serious works about itinerant inarticulate sheep herders who are on a on a lighthouse in Tasmania who haven't talked to anybody in 10 years. That's still fun. Yes, yes. Yes. So I so what he did was, he said, eff this. I think it's great story. I'm not getting anywhere. I'm not a young, I'm not a spring chicken. I've made the bad decision to be over 50. So I'm going to write this as a novel. So he wrote us a novel, it got published. And it got optioned by the same people who turned down his screenplay. And as part of his option, he gets to write the first screen. So so so there's, there's more than one way to skin a cat. So when I was doing a project for HBO, they had this performance space in Hollywood. I think now, it's gotten taken over by Comedy Central. And we we had this one actress who did did a show and she was pretty funny, but she for some reason, she wasn't getting any jobs. So she wrote a one person show for herself. And she did it at the at the HBO workspace, which no longer is there. So don't don't ask me to share sure to get you in into the HBO because they're no longer there. And we did it and people are making came to see it and people laughed it. They loved it, nothing happened. She didn't just say well, I guess I'll just have to work at Starbucks now for the rest of my life. She rented a theater on on Melrose, and ran it one night a week for like a year. And she went to the kind of groups that she thought would come to see it as she sold tickets. One night. A woman named Rita Wilson Kang, Rita Wilson is Tom Hanks wife, and Chris Rita Wilson was intrigued by her title, My Big Fat Greek Wedding wedding. Yeah. And she saw it, and she saw near Vardalos to this one person show. And she brought Tom Hanks the next week, and play till they made it. And it was the highest grossing independent romantic comedy ever made, because she had something brilliant. She wouldn't take no for an answer. She didn't just send the script, you know, to the same person over and over again, she said, if they don't want this, I'm just going to keep showing it till somebody comes along. Who does want it? So So Kalahasti brill, be brilliant. Let people know about it. And and while you're not taking no for an answer, figure out a way to not live on your credit card. Exactly. Please. That'll should come. That'll shit. We'll come back to bite you in the ass.

Alex Ferrari 1:26:27
Oh, and then some my friend and then some. Now, can you tell me what book had the biggest impact on your life or career? Besides drones, obviously.

Steve Kaplan 1:26:35
Wow I guess I guess I would, I would have to say, Lord of the Rings. Okay. I read that. I read that when I was a kid. And it took me to a different world. It took me to a different world when I was I was not a very happy kid. And it's it showed me the power of the amount of imagination. So I knew I knew even if the world wasn't working out for me a world in my imagination could so maybe that's what that maybe that's where I should go.

Alex Ferrari 1:27:18
Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life

Unknown Speaker 1:27:29
yeah you can't force funny.

Alex Ferrari 1:27:36
Amen. Not spawning. Now. Um, what are three of your favorite films of all time?

Steve Kaplan 1:27:44
Ah, Godfather, okay, Groundhog Groundhog's Day. And I the three way tie between It's A Wonderful Life. Meet me in St. Louis. And oh, god dammit. Gene Kelly dancing in the rain.

Alex Ferrari 1:28:13
Okay, Singing in the Rain thing in the rain. Singing in the rain. And then just for you.

Steve Kaplan 1:28:21
Before we tie this thing

Alex Ferrari 1:28:24
Oh, such a great film. I love this thing. I see that's a movie that holds that hold still to this day. It's sad because

Steve Kaplan 1:28:31
it starts with loss. Yeah, no it starts it starts death Yep. And there's death is death near the near the end there's sadness and death.

Alex Ferrari 1:28:41
Now I normally don't ask this question but I have to ask you three of your favorite screenplays of all time that when you wrote your you know comedic stuff that you read, you're like Jesus, this is good. A

Steve Kaplan 1:28:53
Groundhog Day? Uh huh. But the finished script not not like right unfortunately Annie Hall

Alex Ferrari 1:29:04
Yes, I look I know that we all apologize for it. It is still a really he ruined it. He really ruined it but it's still a brilliant piece of art regardless of the artist.

Steve Kaplan 1:29:16
And every Billy Wilder screenplay ever

Alex Ferrari 1:29:24
pretty much Absolutely. Anyone listening if you guys don't not know who Billy Wilder is please do yourself a favor.

Steve Kaplan 1:29:30
How could you not know who Billy well? No, there's no muscle

Alex Ferrari 1:29:34
like there's a lot of look there's a lot of young uns listening or watching this. Please go watch something like

Steve Kaplan 1:29:42
the apart like at Sunset Boulevard. Please please go

Alex Ferrari 1:29:47
go go read a bit. Now. Where can people find you in your work sir?

Steve Kaplan 1:29:51
They can find me at Kaplan comedy calm. They my Twitter. Handle is At SK comedy you can find me on Facebook Kaplan comedy or you can find me. Now I have 3000 odd and they are they are odd but I have 3000 Odd friends your Facebook cuts you off at 5000 So you better another dozen 2000 come in I'm stuck on the other hand Facebook will steal all your information and sell it to other people so maybe don't

Alex Ferrari 1:30:28
fair enough

Steve Kaplan 1:30:29
and and all my books are on Amazon. Although you can you can if you're in the United States you can order directly from me and get an autographed copy. There you go Steve, which in some markets increases value and others decreases value.

Alex Ferrari 1:30:50
Save it has been an epic epic interview and conversation my friend. Thank you so much for for dropping some knowledge bombs on the on the tribe today.

Steve Kaplan 1:30:59
It has anybody ever told you that you remind me of Lin Manuel Miranda.

Alex Ferrari 1:31:03
No, that's the first one I appreciate that. Thank you very much but I've not I've never once gotten lynmarie

Steve Kaplan 1:31:10
if you if you spoken cockney a little bit I'm very Poppins return I

Alex Ferrari 1:31:16
listen, I'm a very I'm a big fan of Hamilton. So I take that with a great, great compliment. Thank you, sir. A pleasure talking to you, sir.

Steve Kaplan 1:31:24
Thank you. Same here.

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Christopher Nolan Screenplays (Download)

Christopher Nolan is one of the greatest filmmakers of his generation. Being a writer/director really sets him apart from his contemporaries. His screenplays are a master class in the craft. We decided to put together an easy resource for screenwriters and filmmakers to be able to download Christopher Nolan Screenplays and study his unique storytelling methods.

Also, check out: Christopher Nolan’s Micro-Budget First Films: Doodlebug & The Following

Before you start reading, take a listen to the man himself break down Memento, the feature film that launched his illustrious career.

OPPENHEIMER (2023)

Screenplay by Christopher Nolan – AS SOON AS IT’S RELEASED

TENET (2020)

Screenplay by Christopher Nolan – Read the screenplay!

DUNKIRK (2017)

Screenplay by Christopher Nolan – Read the screenplay!

INTERSTELLAR (2014)

Screenplay by Christopher Nolan – Read the screenplay!

Screenplay by Johnathan Nolan (2008 Version) – Read the screenplay!

THE DARK KNIGHT RISES (2012)

Screenplay by Christopher Nolan, Jonathan Nolan – Read the screenplay!

INCEPTION (2010)

Screenplay by Christopher Nolan – Read the screenplay!

THE DARK KNIGHT (2008)

Screenplay by Christopher Nolan, Jonathan Nolan – Read the screenplay!

THE PRESTIGE (2006)

Screenplay by Christopher Nolan, Jonathan Nolan – Read the screenplay!

BATMAN BEGINS (2005)

Screenplay by Christopher Nolan, David S. Goyer – Read the screenplay!

MEMENTO (2000)

Screenplay by Christopher Nolan – Read the screenplay!

FOLLOWING (1998)

Screenplay by Christopher Nolan – Read the screenplay!

THE KEYS OF THE STREET (1997)

(Unproduced) Screenplay by Christopher Nolan – Read the screenplay!

 

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Christopher Nolan MasterClass: How to Direct Your First Feature Film

Who isn’t familiar with the mastermind who resurrected Batman and made people watch Interstellar twice and thrice even just to find some new angle of the movie?

Being London-born, Christopher Nolan was born to an English father and an American mother, Brenden James Nolan who was an advertising executive while his mother Christina worked both as a flight attendant and English teacher. Having a childhood moving both in London and Chicago, Nolan has both American and British citizenship.

When Nolan was seven years old, he started making movies at the same age. It all began when his father took him to see the first release of Star Wars (1977) and the theatrical re-release of 2001”. He borrowed his father’s Super 8 camera and started shooting short films with his action figures. Being a Star Wars fan since childhood, he made a stop motion animation tribute called Space Wars.

Christopher Nolan had an uncle who worked for NASA and used to build guiding systems for the Apollo rockets. He sent him some launch footage which he re-filmed off the screen and cut in. Since the age of 11, Nolan had hoped to be a professional filmmaker.

When his family relocated to Chicago, Christopher Nolan started making films with Roko and Adrien Belic and received credit for editorial assistance on the brothers’ Oscar-nominated documentary Genghis Blues (1999).

Nolan worked with Roko and future Pulitzer Prize winner, Jeffrey Gettleman for documenting a safari across four continents, organized by the late Dan Eldon in early 1990s.

Christopher Nolan attended an English boarding school Haileybury and Imperial Service College in the Hertford Heath. He studied English Literature at University College London. He chose UCL solely for film facilities which happened to include Steenbeck editing and 16 mm film cameras.

He and wife Emma Thomas started dating in their first year. They ran a film society and used to screen 35mm films to make money so that members were able to shoot 16mm film shorts.

In college years Nolan shot two short films Tarantella (1989), shown on an independent film and video showcase, Image Union. The second was named Larceny (1995), filmed over a weekend with limited equipment, cast, and crew.

It was funded by Nolan and shot using the society’s equipment and appeared at the Cambridge Film Festival in 1996 and is considered one of the best shorts of UCL.

After graduating from college, Christopher Nolan directed industrial films and corporate videos. He made another short Doodlebug (1997), which was about a guy chasing an insect around the apartment with a shoe only to find out after squashing it that it was his miniature

1998 brought Nolan’s first feature, Following which he funded himself and shot with friends. The plot depicts of a young writer (Jeremy Theobald) who follows strangers in London hoping to get material for his first novel but gets caught up in the criminal world when he failed to maintain distance.

It was based on Nolan’s own experience of living in London and getting his flat burgled.

Made on a modest budget of £3,000 it was shot only on weekends for a whole year. Nolan wrote, edited and photographed himself while Emma co-produced it with Theobald. In its festival run, Following won numerous awards and was well received by the critics as well. It was said to have echoed of Hitchcock classics.

Nolan made an incredible entry upon the film scene with Memento (2000). During a road trip to Los Angeles Nolan’s younger brother gave him the idea for Memento Mori which was about a man suffering from anterograde amnesia and uses notes and tattoos to hunt for the killer of his wife. This $4 million film delivered the crime thrillers feels but the twist was the way Nolan presented it.

The recurring memory of the hero was illustrated by a narratives pair. The twist was one was moving forward while the other narrated the story backward. It was premiered at the Venice International Film Festival in September of 2000 at and starred Guy Pearce and Carrie-Anne Moss earning critical acclaim.

Nolan has explored how conscious memories make up the identities in this film.

Being a huge success, it received Golden Globe and Academy Award nominations for the screenplay. Moreover, it bagged Independent Spirit Award for Best Director, Best Screenplay as well as Directors Guild of America Award nomination. It was considered to be one of the best films of 2000s by many critics.

Steven Soderbergh recruited Nolan after seeing his work on Momento, to direct a psychological thriller, Insomnia (2002) which starred the Academy Award winners Robin Williams, Al Pacino and Hilary Swank. Warner Bros. wanted someone more experienced but Soderbergh and his team fought for Nolan and as well for the cinematographer and editor of his choice.

A much conventional film being a remake of 1997 Norwegian film bearing the same name, the budget of the movie was $46 million. Upon asking Al Pacino during the shooting, he said that he could tell right away that he was going to be very proud to say that he starred in a Christopher Nolan movie.

The story is about two detectives from Los Angeles who are sent to Northern Alaskan town to investigate a teenager’s murder. It received positive reviews from critics. The director of the original film was satisfied and called it a well-crafted smart film whose director handling was really good. The film grossed $113 million worldwide and showed Warners that he could definitely handle the demands and pressure of a studio movie.

Intrigued by the character and story, Nolan approached Warner Bros. in 2003 with the idea to make a Batman film which reflected a classic drama than a comic book story. The biggest project he had undertaken, Batman Begins was a massive commercial and critical success which revived the franchise. It starred Christian Bale, Michael Caine, Morgan Freeman, Liam Neeson and Gary Oldman.

It narrates the origin story of the character from bat fear, death of his parents, becoming Batman and fight against Ra’s al Ghul to save Gotham City. It was the 8th highest grossing film in US and 9th highest worldwide. It was nominated for three BAFTA awards and Academy Award for Best Cinematography.

Before Batman, Nolan produced, directed and co-wrote the Prestige (2006) which was Christopher Priest novel’s adaptation. The plot was about two rival magicians of the 19th century. Starring Hugh Jackman and Christian Bale in lead roles, it earned critical acclaim as well as Oscar nomination for Best Art Direction and Best Cinematography.

The sequel to Batman Begins was announced in July 2006. Released to immense critical acclaim, The Dark Knight released in 2008 and cited as the best super-hero films ever.

It was nominated for eight Oscars at the 81st Academy Awards and won two: posthumous Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor (Heath Ledger) and Academy Award for Best Sound editing. Recognized by his peers, Nolan earned nominations from DGA, PGA and Writers Guild of America.

A huge commercial and critical success, Inception (2010) starred a large cast which was led by Leonardo Dicaprio. Inception was a proof that it is possible for art and blockbusters to be the same thing. Grossing over $820 million worldwide, Inception was nominated for eight Oscars and won four for Best Picture, Best Sound Mixing, Best Sound Editing an, Best Visual Effects.

Christopher Nolan was hugely appreciated and praised by being awarded a Writers Guild Award for the film and earning nominations for Golden Globe, DGA, PGA and BAFTA awards.

The third Batman film was released in 2012, The Dark Knight Rises. It was also a big success and won critical acclaim.

Nolan was to direct, write and produce a science-fiction film as announced in 2013 January, titled Interstellar. The first drafts were written by Nolan and it was to be directed by Steven Spielberg.

Based on the renowned theoretical physicist Kip Thorne’s scientific theories, the film was a journey to the farthest borders of scientific understanding. Starring Anne Hathaway, Matthew McConaughey, Bill Irwin and Jessica Chastain it was co-distributed and co-financed by Warner Bros. and Paramount Pictures.

Interstellar was released to a strong box office response and positive reviews on 5th November 2015 and grossed $670 worldwide. It won the Best Visual Effects at the 87th Academy Awards and received nominations for Best Sound Editing, Best Sound Mixing, Best Original Score and Best Production Design.

The filmmaking process of Christopher Nolan is a combination of geometry and intuition. He gives his actors as much takes they may need of a given scene. Nolan likes to shoot on natural settings and real locations. His style is deeply influenced by film noir. He prefers to shoot on film rather than digital and use of digital cinematography and digital intermediates are opposed by him. He favors deep and haunting shadows and prefers the documentary styled lighting. According to Christopher Nolan, he is inspired by M.C Escher, the Dutch graphic artist.

His style is deeply influenced by film noir. He prefers to shoot on film rather than digital and use of digital cinematography and digital intermediates are opposed by him. He favors deep and haunting shadows and prefers the documentary styled lighting. According to Christopher Nolan, he is inspired by M.C Escher, the Dutch graphic artist.

Christopher Nolan is by far one of the greatest directors of his generation. His ability to dance between an indie film mindset and major world-wide blockbuster is extremely rare these days. I have spoken to people who work with him on the backlot of Warner Brothers and it’s known that Christopher Nolan does not read email or even has a cell phone. He says:

“I’d rather spend my time working on my films.”

That shows you the man’s dedication to his craft.

If more Hollywood directors would worry more about how to make their film projects better and actually work on their craft it would be a very different cinematic landscape.

Ultimate Guide to Christopher Nolan and His Directing Techniques

Nolan has built a reputation in the film industry as a grand showman and visual magician firmly in command of his craft.

He’s infamous for assembling his complex and intricately layered plots like a puzzle, presenting them in such a way that respects the audience’s intelligence while simultaneously indulging their desire for exhilarating escapist entertainment.  He tells stories on a tremendously large scale, and it’s all too easy to be swept away the sheer scope of his vision and ambition.

Best known for his record-shattering, paradigm-shifting DARK KNIGHT TRILOGY, Nolan’s meteoric rise to consistently unprecedented heights of financial and cultural success has established him as one of those rare filmmakers who are able to harness the full power of the Hollywood studio system to his benefit.

It wasn’t always this way, however– Nolan’s ascent to the stratosphere of visionary directors was preceded by a long period of obscurity and rejection that any aspiring filmmaker can relate to.

Christopher Nolan was born in 1970 in London, the 2nd of 3 boys born to a British advertising executive and an American teacher.  The jarring culture split that the Nolan boys experienced through their childhood is perhaps best exemplified by the difference in accents between Nolan and his younger brother, Jonathan– who would go on to become his writing partner and a close professional collaborator.

Also, check out Chris Nolan’s Screenplay Collection for PDF Download

Nolan speaks in an elegant British lilt, while Jonathan’s all-American speech patterns reflect the fact that the Nolan boys spent a great deal of time living in Chicago as well as the UK.

From an early age, Nolan found himself enamored with cinema, and after seeing George Lucas’ STAR WARS at age 7, he was inspired to make Super 8mm stop-motion movies with his father’s film camera.  He would go on to attend University College London, where he studied English literature in the absence of a film program.

In lieu of a formalized education in filmmaking, he established an on-campus cinema society with Emma Thomas– his classmate, future producing partner, and future wife– in addition to devouring the works of key influences like Stanley Kubrick, Ridley Scott, Orson Welles, and Michael Mann.

At age nineteen, he made his first film, TARANTELLA– an 8mm short that was eventually shown on English television.  That development encouraged the burgeoning director to make another short called LARCENY, which debuted at the 1995 Cambridge Film Festival.

For quite some time afterwards, Nolan toiled in obscurity, paying the bills with corporate and industrial films he was able to commission.  All the while, he was applying to various British film organizations in an unsuccessful attempt to obtain grant money for another narrative effort.

Perhaps disheartened by the rejection, and emboldened by the take-no-prisoners, do-it-yourself attitude of the 90’s indie scene, Nolan decided to take matters into his own hands.


THE DIRECTORS SERIES is an educational/editorial collection of video and text essays by filmmaker Cameron Beyl, dedicated to appreciating and deconstructing the work of contemporary and classic film directors.

5.1: THE NON-LINEAR NEO-NOIRS is the first chapter of THE DIRECTORS SERIES’ examination into the films and careers of director Christopher Nolan, covering his pair of breakout independent neo-noirs:


DOODLEBUG (1997)

After marrying Emma in 1997, Christopher Nolan enlisted her help to produce his third short film, DOODLEBUG.  The three minute piece– the earliest of Nolan’s publicly-available works– stars the British actor Jeremy Theobald, who would go on to headline Nolan’s first feature a year later.

Shot on grainy 16mm black and white film, Nolan imbues the film with a kinetic energy at odds with the claustrophobic setting.  Nolan’s idea of a man chasing a bug around his apartment, only to find out the bug is a smaller version of himself, foreshadows the narrative sleight of hand he’d bring to his feature work as well as his inventiveness with practical visual effects.

Also check out: Christopher Nolan’s Micro-Budget First Films: Doodlebug & The Following


FOLLOWING (1998)

Around the time of the making of his short DOODLEBUG (1997), director Christopher Nolan found himself the victim of a burglary.  Whereas most people would be understandably distraught if their apartment had been broken into and their belongings stolen, Nolan’s chief reaction was curiosity.

He wondered what the burglars were thinking as they rifled through his things– what conclusions could they come to about his life based solely on the artifacts and totems of his existence?  In time, he would shape these musings into a story for a feature-length film he called FOLLOWING.

Having learned his lesson not to rely on the favor of unsympathetic British film institutions, Nolan fashioned the film as a lean, mean, razor-taut little thriller he could shoot for as little money as possible.

Taking the idea of a low-budget production to its very extreme, Nolan self-financed the film with the earnings from his day job– stretching the value of his dollar by shooting on weekends, employing friends and family as cast and crew, and commandeering their homes and flats as free locations.

This approach naturally caused the shoot to drag on in fits and starts over the course of a year, but when all was said and done, Nolan had his first feature film in the can– and it only cost him six thousand dollars.

Jeremy Theobald’s protagonist is not given a name– a fitting choice for a lonely writer who lives vicariously through the strangers he follows around his grimy London neighborhood.

Owing to the down-and-dirty nature of the film’s production circumstances, Theobald’s performance isn’t exactly the most natural or convincing, but it’s compelling enough to sustain the audience through the breathlessly-brief 70 minute runtime.

It helps that he’s given a charming and enigmatic antagonist in the form of Alex Haw’s Cobb.  Cobb is an impeccably-dressed, charismatic thief– his cavalier philosophy towards burglary as a cathartic form of human connection is presented as seductive and cool, almost like a boarding school Tyler Durden.

FOLLOWING borrows many elements from the well-trod noir genre, not the least of which is the inclusion of a blonde, morally-ambiguous femme fatale– played here by Lucy Russell.  There’s a photograph by Theobald’s character’s desk of Marilyn Monroe, and one can’t help but notice Russell’ eerie resemblance to the iconic movie star.

Like Theobald, Russell also isn’t given a name– she’s credited only as The Blonde, a conceit that lends some fuel to critiques that Nolan’s female characters on the whole are not particularly well-developed.

Russell is perfectly convincing within the film’s framework, but the stock-character nature of The Blonde’s personality doesn’t afford her many opportunities to transcend the material. Funnily enough, however, Russell would be the only member of FOLLOWING’s cast to go on to a larger acting career.

Nolan has pioneered the use of large-format film mediums like IMAX to create a super-sized canvas for his high-stakes narratives, but even within the square confines of FOLLOWING’s 16mm frame, he’s able to convey a palpable, larger-than-life approach.
While the scope of his later work would command some of the highest budgets the industry has ever seen, the single largest expense for FOLLOWING’s scrappy production was the 16mm film stock itself. Nolan and his crew conserved as much of their precious stock as possible, rehearsing extensively prior to shooting so they could nab what they wanted in one or two takes.

Indeed, his insistence on celluloid is what separates Nolan from his peers, most of whom got their own no-budget projects off the ground by embracing the relative cheapness of digital video.

FOLLOWING’s photochemical cinematography points to Nolan’s purist attitude towards the medium, and foreshadows his eventual position as one of the industry’s most vocal defenders of celluloid in the face of digital’s unstoppable advance. In shooting FOLLOWING, Nolan acted as his own cameraman, utilizing mostly natural light to expose his grainy black and white images.

The majority of Nolan’s camerawork is handheld, which gives the film a kinetic and swift energy thanks to the fluid mobility and quick setup time afforded by the technique.

While Nolan used handheld camerawork primarily as a way to keep costs down, he was concerned that his choice might also lead to the impression that the film was amateurish, or that he didn’t know what he was doing.  To counter these concerns, he employed the smooth, polished movement of a dolly track during the interrogation scene that opens the film as a way to communicate to the audience that the predominant use of a handheld camerawork was a deliberate, stylistic choice.

While Nolan essentially acted as a one-man crew during production, he used post-production as an opportunity to enlist the collaborative efforts of musician David Julyan, who provides FOLLOWING with a pulsing, grimy score comprised of droning synths and jittery staccato tones.

By virtue of its shoestring budget, FOLLOWING’s aesthetic is easily the most radical within Nolan’s canon.  It speaks in a language born of necessity and deprivation, a world apart from the style that he’d solidify in his studio work.  However, FOLLOWING does establish techniques and ideas that Nolan would further develop in the years to come.

For instance, he’s gained a bit of a reputation as a meticulous dresser, showing up to set in a business-casual wardrobe he’s refined into something of a uniform.  This aspect of his personality makes its way into his films, as many of his characters are given a palpable sartorial sensibility that’s high on functional style and low on extraneous embellishment.

Even in the context of a no-budget film like FOLLOWING, Nolan still places an emphasis on his characters’ costuming, using it as a story tool to highlight the strategic advantages of a presentable appearance in the world of burglary.

The structuring of FOLLOWING’s narrative signals another key component of Nolan’s aesthetic: the non-linearity of time.  Simply put: time is never a straight line in Nolan’s films– whether it’s BATMAN BEGINS utilizing a recurring flashback motif, MEMENTO unfolding entirely in backwards chronological order, INCEPTION playing out against multiple parallel planes of space-time connected by a relativistic relationship, or INTERSTELLAR exploring gravity’s ability to warp our perception of time itself.

Christopher Nolan cites this aspect of his aesthetic as being inspired at a very young age by Graham Swift’s novel “Waterland” and its parallel structuring of time.  FOLLOWING pays tribute to this conceit by jumbling the order of its scenes non-sequentially– a decision made in large part to disguise the story’s major twist.

Indeed, the only visual clue Nolan gives to clue us on in which shard of the fractured timeline we’re in is via Theobald’s changing appearance from scraggly slacker to polished businessman and then to his final form as a defeated mound of ground-up beef.

While presented as something of a random shuffling of loosely connected scenes, Nolan’s ordering of the narrative is actually rather surgical, meticulously designed to enhance the impact of the mounting drama while constantly challenging our assumptions about what’s going on.

And just to show that the integrity of his story isn’t dependent on the gimmick of its nonlinear presentation, he even goes as far as assembling the scenes into proper chronological order in a completely separate linear that’s no less surprising or structurally sound and including it on the Criterion Collection’s 2012 Blu Ray release.

Just as the Batman logo on Theobald’s apartment door foreshadows his eventual cinematic involvement with the Caped Crusader, FOLLOWING’s unique structure portends the puzzle-like, revelation-based storytelling style that Nolan would build his career on.

Like so many no-budget films of its kind, the completion of FOLLOWING in 1998 wasn’t greeted with instantaneous acclaim or a great deal of attention.  It almost even didn’t get finished in the first place, had it not been for the saving grace of indie producer Peter Broderick, who secured completion funds after screening Nolan’s rough cut.

Thanks to its lack of star power and technical polish, FOLLOWING was shut out from several major film festivals– event those devoted to truly independent cinema like Sundance or Slamdance (in Slamdance’s defense, however, they would eventually accept the film into their festival after Nolan submitted his completely re-tooled final cut a year after his rejection).

FOLLOWING would ultimately premiere at the San Francisco Film Festival, gathering modest (yet consistent) praise as an engaging, if obscure, little thriller.  The film would find a distributor in Zeitgeist Films, who would release it to a tepid box office haul of fifty thousand dollars.

Nolan didn’t have much cause for concern though– by the time FOLLOWING had wound through its interminable festival circuit and theatrical release window, he had already optioned the script for a follow-up that would give him the breakthrough he needed and desired.

As Nolan’s career has since played out, the thematic similarities between FOLLOWING and his 2010 dreamscape thriller INCEPTION have become more pronounced.  In his essay “‘Nolan Begins”, former chief film critic for Variety, Scott Foundas, goes so far as to dub FOLLOWING a first draft for INCEPTION, citing that both films are in effect “a heist of the mind” masterminded by a slickly-dressed career criminal named Cobb.

On its own merits, FOLLOWING is a fascinating insight into the early voice of a massively influential contemporary filmmaker and the raw directorial powers he could exert with minimal resources and a tireless drive.


MEMENTO (2000)

As if shooting and releasing his first feature film (1998’s FOLLOWING) wasn’t momentous enough an undertaking, around this time director Christopher Nolan was also undergoing a big move across the Atlantic to pursue his aspirations as a filmmaker in Los Angeles.  He stopped first in Chicago to meet up with his brother Jonathan, who would be accompanying him on the cross-country drive.

As they drove west, Jonathan pitched an idea for a short story called “Memento Mori”, about a man suffering from acute short-term memory loss.  Instantly taken with the idea, Nolan encouraged his brother to continue developing it even as he repurposed the concept into an entirely separate story. The brothers worked independently from each other for some time afterward, giving each other notes on their respective stories while not directly adapting what the other was doing.

As such, the two finished works are very dissimilar.  Nolan’s finished screenplay– simply titled MEMENTO– was taken by Emma Thomas to Newmarket Films, where executives reportedly hailed the script as one of the most innovative they had ever read.  With a greenlight to make MEMENTO for $4.5 million over 25 shooting days,  Nolan finally had a chance to make his big break– but in order to make the best of it, he had to move quickly.

MEMENTO marks the first time that Nolan would work with established talent, but very few know just how big of a name he almost had.  Before scheduling conflicts caused him to drop out, none other than Brad Pitt was originally attached to star in the role of protagonist Leonard Shelby, a former insurance claims investigator suffering from anterograde amnesia.

The role was eventually filled by Guy Pearce, who delivers a breathlessly fierce performance as a man out to avenge the brutal rape and murder of his wife, despite the fact that he can’t remember what he did two minutes ago.  The character of Leonard Shelby is one of the more peculiar protagonists in American cinema– driving a Jaguar he doesn’t remember how he obtained, and wearing an ill-fitting suit that he’s pretty sure he didn’t buy.

Incapable of storing memories in his mind, he instead tattoos his flesh as a way to remember the clues he needs to find his wife’s killer.  As such, he’s vulnerable to the designs of others with malevolent intentions, and the nature of his illness means that he can’t fully trust any relationship he has.  One of these ambiguously-defined allies is Carrie-Ann Moss’ Natalie, a cocktail waitress whose boyfriend troubles might have more to do with Leonard than he realizes.

Fresh off the breakout success of THE MATRIX, Moss was imaginably quite helpful in securing her co-star Joe Pantoliano for the role of Teddy, an undercover cop whose eagerness to help Leonard find his wife’s killer can’t shake a profound sense of suspiciousness about him.

Seasoned character actors Stephen Tobolowsky and Mark Boone Junior also appear, with the former as a case study of Leonard’s with a similar condition and the latter as a self-advantageous motel clerk who is surprisingly honest about how he profits off Leonard’s memory loss.

MEMENTO represents a huge step up for Nolan in the visual department, thanks to a budget that’s quite generous by indie standards. On the most basic level, Nolan graduates from the square 16mm frame to the anamorphic 35mm gauge– an upgrade boosted by his first collaboration with cinematographer Wally Pfister, who would go on to become an integral creative partner for Nolan throughout his subsequent work.

Pfister’s eye for stark contrast, subdued color, and naturalistic lighting mesh perfectly with Nolan’s gritty vision of a slightly-heightened reality.  MEMENTO’s use of color informs its innovative and distinct non-linear structure, alternating between color and monochromatic sequences in an effort to orient the audience as to where they currently stand in the timeline.

The color blue in particular becomes a potent visual signifier, appearing on doors, hotel room walls, bars, and even Leonard’s suit, almost as if they were signposts for him to follow.

Nolan scraps FOLLOWING’s shaky handheld camerawork in favor of an elegant, fluid approach that favors dollies, cranes, and steadicam shots and signals his desire to merge classical filmmaking techniques with radical, almost-Cubist storytelling structures.  Returning composer David Julyan serves as one of the few stylistic carryovers from FOLLOWING, crafting a brooding suite of Vangelis-style synth cues that manages to evoke old-school film noir despite its inherent electronic modernity.

MEMENTO is perhaps best-known for being “that film that plays in reverse order”, but the conceit is far from a gimmick employed to sell tickets.  Building from FOLLOWING’s earlier innovations with the idea, MEMENTO solidifies the use of nonlinear storytelling devices as a major component of Nolan’s artistic aesthetic.

Just as FOLLOWING’s deceptively-random ordering of scenes proves an effective way to navigate its labyrinth of deception, so too does MEMENTO’s unique structure become a key factor in the successful telling of its story.

In order for the audience to empathize with his protagonist’s condition, Christopher Nolan felt the most appropriate course of action would be to tell the story in backwards chronological order– thus emulating, in a cinematic sense, what it would be like to have no short-term memory; deprived of crucial orientating information and context that we usually take for granted.  It’s a radical idea– one that requires a delicate balance of finesse that a lesser filmmaker could easily stumble over.

Nolan wisely uses the opening titles as an opportunity to prep his audience for his unconventional storytelling, lingering over a closeup shot of a hand shaking a developing Polaroid picture — or rather, un-developing, as the audience slowly realizes they’re watching the action unfold in backwards motion.

He then shows us the immediate aftermath of Teddy’s cold-blooded execution before showing us the crucial moment itself.  Its also worth noting that this opening sequence wasn’t simply shot and and then reversed in the edit suite.  Nolan and company actually ran the film backwards through the camera on set– an act that reinforces his career-long commitment to capturing special effects in-camera as much as possible.

Discontent with simply presenting the film in backwards order, Nolan takes an extra step: the insertion of a parallel, forward-moving storyline that sees Leonard languishing in his motel room while talking into a telephone about his condition.

Nolan separates these scenes from the A-plot by rendering them in expressionistic black and white handheld photography, in effect creating a bridge between FOLLOWING’s scrappy shoestring style and the ambitious classical style he’d adopt for the rest of his career.

These brief, recurring interludes give us crucial bits of backstory and context about Leonard’s memory loss without subjecting us to tedious or unnecessary exposition.

However, its within these scenes that Nolan plants the seeds for MEMENTO’s big narrative twist.  This pair of parallel timelines almost-effortlessly converges at the story’s apex– a transition point that Nolan marks with a color fade so subtle that many viewers tend to miss it entirely.  As he did with FOLLOWING, Nolan would subsequently assemble an alternate, aprochryphal cut of MEMENTO in proper chronological order, including it as an easter egg on the film’s home video release.

MEMENTO premiered at the 2000 Venice Film Festival to widespread critical acclaim.  Executives from the major studios echoed the festival circuit’s warm embrace of the film, yet they were reluctant to claim it for distribution.

The sheer power of Nolan’s vision was undeniable, but they feared that audiences would be too confused by the backwards ordering of the film.  Eventually, Newmarket Films took it upon themselves to distribute– a risky move that paid off in spades when MEMENTO debuted to healthy box office and rave reviews that hailed it as one of the most original and refreshing films in years.

Come awards season, MEMENTO took home several Independent Spirit Awards for Best Director, Best Feature, Best Screenplay, and Best Supporting Female.  It would also go on to score Academy Award nominations for Nolan’s screenplay and Dody Dorn’s groundbreaking edit.  All these plaudits earned Nolan the attention of fellow indie maverick Steven Soderbergh, who would soon become instrumental in helping him transition into studio pictures.

Simply put, Nolan was on the map– in a big way.  He was leaving behind the independent sphere on a high note, with MEMENTO demonstrating his taut sense of control and vision while avoiding the distractions and indulgences that come with a significant leap in budgetary resources.

FOLLOWING and MEMENTO– Nolan’s breakout pair of non-linear neo-noirs— may be small in size and scope, but Nolan’s desire for larger-scale filmmaking is already apparent In their DNA.  It would only be a matter of time until he made his mark in the studio realm, but no one– not even him– could’ve ever predicted just how big that mark would be.

INSOMNIA (2002)

MEMENTO caught the eye of many established Hollywood players– most notably, actor/director George Clooney and indie iconoclast Steven Soderbergh.  Their frequent collaborations together, especially as producers, cultivated a shared taste in talent, and they both saw in Christopher Nolan the perfect candidate to helm a project they had in development over at Alcon Entertainment– a remake of a Norwegian film from 1997 named INSOMNIA, about a detective investigating a grisly murder in an isolated town located so far north that the sun doesn’t set for months at a time.

Alcon’s development deal with Warner Brothers effectively meant that INSOMNIA would become Nolan’s first studio film– a testing ground to see if he really had what it took to play in the big leagues.  As such, he would have to make a few concessions on the production methods he was predisposed to; namely, working from a script that was not his own.

While he would ultimately perform his own pass on credited screenwriter Hilary Seitz’s draft just prior to shooting, INSOMNIA was, more or a less, a work for hire.  Nevertheless, Nolan finds plenty of artistic common ground with Seitz’s prose– enough that his first big budget effort would feel apiece with the puzzle-esque nature of his earlier work and empower him to deliver a uniquely captivating thriller on par with its Swedish counterpart.

The wet evergreen mountains of British Columbia stand in for the majestic landscape of Alaska, where a pair of LAPD detectives have been sent in to investigate the murder of a young local girl.  Nolan’s successful collaboration with the likes of Guy Pearce, Carrie-Ann Moss and Joe Pantoliano in MEMENTO begets here a cast with a higher industry profile and a sterling pedigree.

Indeed, INSOMNIA begins Nolan’s enviable habit of attracting award-winning talent, boasting no less than three Oscar winners among its ensemble. Al Pacino headlines the film as Detective Will Dormer, a driven yet compromised cop besieged by an internal affairs investigation back home.

Pacino plays the part liked a subdued, run-ragged version of his character from Michael Mann’s HEAT– an aspect that no doubt wasn’t lost on Nolan, a self-styled disciple of Mann’s.  A big city cop in a small frontier town, Dormer is literally and figuratively adrift in a mental fog, isolated from any semblance of a familiar surrounding and lost in a perpetual state of exhaustion thanks to a winter sun that never sets and refuses to let him sleep.

To further complicate matters, his inability to think coherently leads to the tragic accidental killing of his own partner during a raid on on the suspected killer’s hideout. The local Nightmute police investigate the circumstances of the accident, led by the doggedly determined and fiercely insightful Ellie Burr.

Hilary Swank imbues the character with a palpable sense of independence cultivated by a life lived on the outermost boundaries of civilization; the alpha to Nicky Katt’s beta– a fellow Nightmute police officer with a wispy mustache named Fred Duggar.  Meanwhile, Dormer pursues his suspect, a local crime novelist named Walter Finch.

Played to chilling effect by the late Robin Williams in one of his rare serious turns, Finch uses his occupational insights into the law enforcement profession to become a formidable and unpredictable adversary to Dormer.  He’s a killer, yes, but he’s not barbaric– Williams projects the same warm sense of paternal authority he had in Gus Van Sant’s GOOD WILL HUNTING, albeit turned on its ear to emphasize its innately creepy undertones.

Finch differs from other murder-thriller heavies in that his guilt is never in question– he admits his deed to Dormer openly and without shame, as if it were the most natural thing in the world.  Williams’ performance is the standout of the film and, in light of his recent passing, stands as a somber reminder of the great talent we lost far too soon.

INSOMNIA is arguably Nolan’s most overlooked major work, but the impeccable quality of its craft lets it to stand toe to toe with his best efforts.  It certainly helps that the lush, pristine Alaskan wilderness provides a stunning and majestic backdrop entirely unique within the larger canon of crime thrillers.

The production values afforded by studio backing amplifies the scope of Nolan’s stylistic choices, which begin to coagulate here into an identifiable aesthetic.  He brings back MEMENTO’s cinematographer, Wally Pfister, in the second of what would be many more subsequent collaborations; filling the 2.35:1 35mm film frame with sweeping panoramas and earthy texture.

Working in conjunction with production designer Nathan Crowley, who would also become a key collaborator in Nolan’s filmography, they cultivate a distinct color palette comprised of stark whites, blacks, and earth tones– with the surrounding evergreens in particular evoking that particular blue-green color characteristic of the lush Pacific Northwest. Warm colors are typically avoided, concentrated mostly within the interior hotel sequences to convey a cozy, hearth-like atmosphere.

The overall effect is one of majestic beauty pervaded by gloom and unease, especially so when a heavy fog envelopes Dormer during the pivotal raid sequence.  Nolan’s camerawork here is much more ambitious, perhaps even a little incongruous considering the staggering sense of scope he imposes on what’s otherwise a relatively grounded story.

His films frequently employ lofty aerials, and INSOMNIA marks the point in which Nolan’s camera finally takes flight, soaring through the dramatic vistas via a combination of helicopter mounts and cranes.

On the ground, Nolan alternates between handheld camerawork and classical dolly moves, making full use of his new toys to convey an epic scope as well as the unique cultural character of his setting.

Editor Dody Dorn and composer David Julyan round out Nolan’s returning crew, with Dorn’s expressionistic approach reprising MEMENTO’s quick-cutting technique as a means to jar the protagonist’s thoughts with flashes of violence, while Julyan’s last collaboration with Nolan moves away from the electronic nature of their earlier work to embrace a big-budget orchestral sound reminiscent of a brooding Hitchcock film.

INSOMNIA may not have initially sprung from Nolan’s mind, but his artistic character permeates every aspect of the film.  As previously noted, Michael Mann is a key influence on Nolan’s aesthetic, and INSOMNIA allows the burgeoning director to play in his idol’s wheelhouse.

Aside from the shared casting of Pacino in a similar character archetype used by Mann, Nolan also evokes his spirit in the detailed and tactical accuracy imposed on even the most minute aspects of policework.

For all his virtues as a man of justice, Dormer is also profoundly corrupt; he plants evidence to justify his own version of events, and even goes so far as to cover up his role in the accidental killing of his own partner.  Nolan’s interest lies in Dormer’s struggle to achieve his objectives without sabotaging himself, continuing the tradition he established in both FOLLOWING and MEMENTO where the fundamentally-compromised nature of his protagonists allows him to better access the psychological underpinnings of their actions.

The twisting nature of INSOMNIA’s plot also evokes the revelatory, puzzle-like character of Nolan’s storytelling, which allows him to turn time itself into a compelling narrative and structural device.

Perhaps rightfully so for his first mainstream Hollywood film, INSOMNIA is the first of Nolan’s features to unspool in linear, chronological order.  Nevertheless, time still plays an important factor in the drama– by setting the story in a place where the sun doesn’t set for months at a time, the circadian day-to-night rhythm is utterly disrupted.

In other words, Dormer is literally removed from the dimension of time itself.  This wreaks havoc on his ability to function, which, in a profession that’s entirely dependent on clear-eyed critical thinking and razor-sharp reflexes, becomes a formidable antagonist in and of itself.

Just like he did for the home video releases of FOLLOWING and MEMENTO, Nolan would also assemble an alternate, apocryphal cut of INSOMNIA– rearranging his scenes in the order that they were shot and overlaying his commentary.

Unlike those prior alternate cuts however, the narrative and logical cohesion of the story completely falls apart in this particular version of INSOMNIA.  Thankfully, clarity isn’t Nolan’s purpose here– rather, this version marries its disjointed order with his astute commentary to provide a unique glimpse into the day-by-day challenges of mounting his first big studio effort.

The commentary also yields intriguing insights into his personal growth as a filmmaker. If his increasing directorial confidence wasn’t palpable enough in the film itself, he reveals that, during the shoot, he didn’t use crucial preparation tools like storyboards, shot lists, or video monitors.  Instead, he let the choices of his actors organically block the scene for him, which he’d then think up coverage for on the fly while he stood by the camera and watched their performances directly instead of behind a screen.

Indeed, these techniques require an astonishingly high degree of confidence to embrace, and aren’t typical of a director on only his third feature… but yet, there he was, pulling it off quite effortlessly.

That gamble of confidence paid off when INSOMNIA debuted in May of 2002 to critical and financial success as one of those rarest of remakes that managed to match, if not transcend, its original material.

Roger Ebert perhaps summed up the sentiment best in his review, hailing it not as “a pale retread, but a re-examination of the material, like a new production of a good play”.
INSOMNIA may have been easily and overwhelmingly eclipsed by anything Nolan’s made since, but it’s nonetheless a strong and notable addition to his canon– and an important one, too, as it would serve as an audition for his next high-profile film, setting the stage for the crowning achievement of his career thus far.

BATMAN BEGINS (2005)

After the completion of INSOMNIA, Christopher Nolan used his newfound access to studio resources to develop an ambitious project on the life of Howard Hughes.  The film would purportedly have starred Jim Carrey as the reclusive billionaire, if he hadn’t scrapped it following his discovery that Martin Scorsese was about to embark on shooting THE AVIATOR with Leonardo DiCaprio.

It was around this same time that he learned Warner Brothers was looking to make a new Batman picture– the property was one of the studio’s crown jewels, but had lain dormant ever since Joel Schumacher effectively bludgeoned it into a coma with 1997’s BATMAN & ROBIN, a two-hour consumer products department memo and toy masquerading as a movie.  Various pitches had already been made by other such high-profile directors as Darren Aronofsky, and spanned a wide range of ideas from Schumacher’s continuation of his run with a third film titled BATMAN TRIUMPHANT, to a live-action adaptation of the animated television series BATMAN BEYOND.

The closest any of these pitches came to reality was Aronofsky’s own riff on the iconic BATMAN YEAR ONE graphic novel, which explored Batman’s origins and early forays into crimefighting from the perspective of the future Gotham City police commissioner Jim Gordon.

Aronofsky’s take would have dramatically reworked some of the most iconic aspects of Batman lore, to the point that executives ultimately got cold feet and abandoned his vision.  Nolan, like many others of his generation, had grown up adoring the Caped Crusader and his surrounding universe of villains, so his interest in the vacant director’s chair was more or less a foregone conclusion.

He wasn’t interested, however, in making a quote/unquote “comic book movie” — indeed, he made no effort to conceal his lack of knowledge with the medium.  Rather, he was interested in imbuing the character of Batman with what he called a “cinematic reality”, giving the story the weight and gravitas of a real-life event.

His initial pitch meeting with Warner Brothers apparently lasted a mere ten minutes, but so confident in his vision of a realistic superhero film was he, that the executives cast aside their doubts about his relative inexperience as a studio filmmaker and hand over their most valuable piece of intellectual property to his control.

Nolan’s next move would pave the way for his eventual reputation as a Hollywood trendsetter.  He did away entirely with the continuity of the previous Tim Burton and Schumacher films, opting to reboot the story from square one so he could tell it his way with no compromises or obligations.

Rebooting a failing franchise has now become the go-to trick for frustrated development executives (especially those assigned to the Spider-Man franchise), so it’s easy to forget just how groundbreaking of an idea this was in the early 2000’s.

This decision, combined with the fact that money was essentially no object, allowed Nolan to envision a boundless Gotham City against which he could stage an epic story exploring Batman not just as a character, but as an idea.

Ridley Scott had always served as a chief influence in Nolan’s artistic development, and Scott’s seminal classic BLADE RUNNER became a key reference in imagining a new kind of cinematic Gotham — a living, breathing city densely populated by diverse subcultures desperately in need of a hero.

Whereas Gotham City had generally been understood in previous iterations to be a fictional version of Manhattan, Nolan modeled the soaring architecture of his Gotham after Chicago, the city in which he’d spent a great deal of his upbringing.

With its deep ties to the colorful history of organized crime and bureaucratic shadiness, Chicago would prove an inspired fit for Nolan’s grandiose vision of a once-great city mired in corruption and decay.

By grounding the action in a tangible place, he could inject the necessary gravitas into his story while immediately differentiating his Gotham from the crumbling Art Deco spires of Burton’s Gotham or the garish day-glo labyrinth of Shumacher’s.

Developing a  project as high-profile as Batman, with so many rabid fans angling for a big scoop, naturally required a high degree of secrecy — a requirement that dovetailed quite harmoniously with Nolan’s own showman-like penchant for strategic opaqueness.
He adopted Stanley Kubrick’s late-career practice of working from home, developing the story in his garage with a small team that included returning production designer Nathan Crowley, Nolan’s producing partner and wife Emma Thomas, and seasoned superhero genre screenwriter David S. Goyer.

Indeed, Nolan and company were so insistent on their veil of secrecy that Warner Brothers executives had to travel to them, forced to read the script on Nolan’s couch in an effort to prevent unwanted copies from leaking.  When the necessities of the pre-production process finally required him to send out physical copies of the script, he did so under a fake title — “The Intimidation Game — to avoid any unwanted scrutiny.

This unconventional process, while admittedly unwieldy, ultimately proved fruitful, empowering him with a dream cast and crew and a budget in the hundreds of millions to help realize the majestic vision he would come to call BATMAN BEGINS.

Christian Bale essentially beat out every eligible actor in the business for the title role by formulating his approach based on, what seems now in retrospect, the obvious concept of the character’s dual nature.  Far from the elegant and assured playboy embodied by Michael Keaton, Val Kilmer and George Clooney, Bale’s Bruce Wayne is a tortured young man whose psyche was profoundly fractured by the murder of his parents when he was a small boy.

The hoarse growl he adopts as Batman is the object of frequent parody now, but Bale’s choice to differentiate the speaking voices of Bruce Wayne and his alter ego came as something of revelation to Nolan during the casting process, immediately setting Bale apart from the pack of candidates.

Bale brings his signature commitment to the role, fully inhabiting the character in mind, body, and soul to arguably create the definitive screen version of the iconic hero. As the newly-orphaned son of a billionaire industrialist and philanthropist, Bruce grows up in his parents’ mausoleum-like mansion, his every need and desire attended to by his caretaker and butler, Alfred.

In his first of several collaborations with Nolan, esteemed British actor Michael Caine effortlessly also creates a definitive version of the character, giving his young charge the necessary warmth and support he needs to one day take take over the reigns of his late father’s business empire, Wayne Enterprises.

Whereas prior Batman movies had audiences simply counting the minutes between the Caped Crusader’s crimefighting forays, Nolan makes the radical choice of delaying our first glimpse of Bruce in full Bat regalia until the halfway mark.

Instead, he traces Bruce’s formative years as his restless desire for justice prompts him to drop out of college and travel the world, giving himself a firsthand education in the nature of crime so that he can deliver said justice himself.  After landing himself in a Chinese prison, he is approached by Ducard, the urbane and charismatic face of a secret vigilante syndicate known as The League Of Shadows.

Liam Neeson proves an inspired choice in the role, becoming a firm yet compassionate mentor to Bruce while dispensing sage advice and virtuous platitudes that slowly reveal their inherently malevolent nature.

He presents himself as an underling to Ken Watanabe’s Ra’s Al Ghul, the enigmatic and Sphinx-like figurehead of The League Of Shadows– but appearances can be deceiving, and Bruce’s refusal to complete his final test (the execution of a common thief) brings his ideological compatibility with Ducard into urgent question.

Ducard’s lessons nevertheless prove influential when Bruce returns to Gotham and begins to formalize his own vigilante identity.

Of all Ducard’s teachings, Bruce’s biggest takeaway is that he is more powerful as a symbol than as a man– a key concept of Nolan’s vision that would fundamentally inform the remainder of the trilogy.  For Bruce, that symbol takes the form of a bat, inspired by a formative moment of fear from his childhood.

Combining his flinty determination for justice with the nigh-bottomless technological resources of Wayne Enterprises at his disposal, Bruce sets out into the night as Batman, intent on eradicating the cancer of organized crime that has infected the Gotham Police Department with corruption.

Batman’s will to act inspires clandestine partnerships with a cop named Jim Gordon and Bruce’s childhood friend, Rachel Dawes, who has grown up to become an ambitious district attorney.  Renowned for his many villainous turns, Gary Oldman initially seemed an unusual choice to portray Gordon, the only decent cop in a police force besieged by compromise and corruption, but he would deliver a brilliant performance that cuts straight to the core of the character.

The character of Rachel Dawes, played by Katie Holmes, is an original creation of Nolan’s with no comic book counterpart.  She’s an ambitious district attorney and the love of Bruce Wayne’s life, stretching all the way back to their childhood.  As such, she is the only person besides Alfred who can penetrate his veneer of AMERICAN PSYCHO-style narcissism and nonchalance to access the broken little boy at his core.

The Batman universe has always been known for its rich world of well-developed allies and enemies, a grand tradition in which BATMAN BEGINS easily follows.  In his performance as Wayne Enterprises R&D head Lucius Fox, Morgan Freeman takes one of the most underappreciated characters in Batman comic lore and transforms him into one of the property’s most indelible personalities and a key ally on par with Gordon or Alfred.  By supplying Bruce with the gear he needs to function as Batman, he becomes analogous to “Q” from the James Bond series, and a vital tool for Nolan to ground Batman’s fantastical tech in the real world.

Nolan is gracious enough to give Freeman his own character arc, as well as his own nemesis in the form of the smug chairman of the Wayne Enterprises board, played memorably by Rutger Hauer in yet another nod to BLADE RUNNER’s key influence on the picture.

MEMENTO’s Mark Boone Junior embodies the Gotham PD’s shameless corruption as Gordon’s slovenly partner, Flass, while Tom Wilkinson’s Carmine Falcone serves as the refined face of the city’s organized crime epidemic.

With his appearance here as the psychopathic psychiatrist Dr. Crane, Cillian Murphy would join Caine and Bale as a recurring collaborator in Nolan’s larger body of work.  Crane, of course, is better known by his supervillain alter ego The Scarecrow– a rogue who employs fear as a weapon, imposing terrifying hallucinations on his victims.

Like Ra’s Al Ghul, Scarecrow is one of the more fantastical villains in the Batman canon and doesn’t necessarily lend himself to a grounded cinematic reality, but Christopher Nolan creates a highly effective adaptation while staying true to the character’s comic roots.  His ability to incite fear stems not from a supernatural source, but from a chemical that he’s weaponized into a spray that paralyzes his targets with debilitating waking nightmares.

Whereas prior BATMAN films chose their villains first and forced the script to twist itself into narrative pretzels to accommodate their pairing, Nolan avoids marquee villains like The Joker or Penguin to place the focus squarely on Batman himself.

Besides the obvious benefit of using villains never before seen on the big screen, Nolan’s emphasis on story allows him to create a rather harmonious pairing between Scarecrow and Ra’s Al Ghul, linking the former’s fear spray directly to the latter by revealing its active ingredient to be a mysterious blue flower that grows in the mountains where The League Of Shadows has established their temple.

This unique pairing also allows the ideological concept of fear to emerge as the central theme of BATMAN BEGINS, a pillar upon which every narrative decision can revolve around.  Part of what makes THE DARK KNIGHT TRILOGY so resonant is Nolan’s ability to distill each individual installment into a singular, unifying theme.

In the case of BATMAN BEGINS, that theme is fear, and it doesn’t just make for a convenient justification of Scarecrow and Ra’s Al Ghul’s master plot– it’s also an entirely appropriate prism through which to explore the genesis of Batman himself.

Indeed, BATMAN BEGINS is the first Batman film to truly understand and portray the character’s nature as something that strikes genuine fear in the hearts of criminals. Finally, Nolan uses the opportunity to include a few minor cameos that are nonetheless notable in the context of his artistic growth.

For instance, FOLLOWING’s Jeremy Theobald and Lucy Russell make fleeting appearances, the former being a technician for the Gotham Water Board and the latter being the elegant foil of a heated political discussion at a fancy restaurant.

GAME OF THRONES fans will also recognize the inclusion of King Joffrey himself, Jack Gleeson, as a small boy growing up in the Narrows who encounters Batman outside his back porch.

If INSOMNIA’s majestic cinematography hinted at Nolan’s ambitions towards classic Hollywood spectacle, then BATMAN BEGINS makes those designs clear for all to see.  Nolan is something of an iconoclast in the film industry, in that he vigorously bucks modern trends in favor of old school techniques.

He’s become a valiant defender of celluloid film, resistant to the relentless advances of digital filmmaking.  He endeavors to ground his stunts and set-pieces in practical effects as much as possible, where the vast majority of his peers prefer the surgical precision of computer-generated imagery.

He dismisses Hollywood’s convictions about 3D as the way to attract modern audiences to the theater, presenting an alternate argument for larger 2D formats like IMAX that are capable of staggering clarity.

This aspect of his artistic profile is why the release of a new Nolan is regarded as such a cultural event– his methods simply give his films the kind of weight and gravitas we accord to monuments.  BATMAN BEGINS is the first instance of this, harnessing the full power of a nine figure budget and putting it all up on the screen in a way that would popularize the concept of the “dark and gritty reboot”.

Cinematographer Wally Pfister returns for his third collaboration with Nolan, capturing the action on 35mm film in the 2.35:1 aspect ratio and coming away with an Oscar nomination for his trouble.

Deep wells of inky shadow, low-hanging clouds of impenetrable fog and torrents of rain conjure up an appropriate film noir look that’s less THE THIRD MAN and more BLADE RUNNER in its rendering of a dystopic urban landscape.

Nolan packs his story with epic compositions and soaring camerawork, further peppering his signature helicopter aerials throughout to find Batman’s majestic silhouette amidst Gotham’s towering spires.  A color palette of earth & metal tones further grounds BATMAN BEGINS’ aesthetic in realism while immediately differentiating itself from prior cinematic iterations of the Caped Crusader.

While Nolan actively avoids replicating the frenetic handheld camerawork typical of action films of the time, he works with editor Lee Smith to bring a chaotic quick-cut approach to the film’s action scenes, especially in fights that aim to convey Batman’s mastery of hand-to-hand combat as an unstoppable and disorienting force, doling out a barrage of street justice in handy bite-size form.

The challenge of reinventing Batman goes much further than overhauling his iconic cape and cowl.  It also means redefining all the other little things that make Batman “Batman”: Wayne Manor, the Batmobile, his grappling hook, and the fantastical theatricality of his villains amidst a myriad of other aspects.

It’s a very intimidating task, but production designer Nathan Crowley proves up to the challenge, reinforcing Nolan’s grandiose vision of a cinematic reality.  All of Batman’s gear is based off real military tech in some capacity, the Batmobile (referred to within the film as The Tumbler) is completely overhauled into the bastard lovechild of a Hummer and a Lamborghini, and the sheer size of the practical sets — indeed, spanning the size of multiple city blocks — would require one of the largest aircraft hangars in the world to house them in.

Composing team Hans Zimmer and James Newton Howard tackle the unenviable task of following Danny Elfman’s Batman theme, one of the most instantly recognizable music cues in recent film history, but their efforts result in a score that obliterates our musical memories of Dark Knights past and provides the necessary lift for Nolan’s interpretation to soar.

Zimmer and Howard are excellent composers with highly celebrated individual careers, so their pairing here must’ve seemed very unusual in theory.  In practice, their partnership —  an idea brought to the table by Zimmer when Nolan initially approached him —  proves quite inspired, reflecting Batman’s fragmented psyche with a bifurcated approach that sees Howard tackling dramatic sequences with sweeping strings and mournful brass instruments, while Zimmer fuels the action with an urgent orchestral staccato and atonal electronic rhythms inspired by flapping bat wings.

The score has since become widely recognizable and imitated in the wake of the success of the larger DARK KNIGHT TRILOGY, so one could be forgiven for failing to remember just how visionary it truly is — it’s so radical in its adherence to the story’s key themes and willingness to experiment that it’s something of a minor miracle that Warner Brothers ever allowed it anywhere near their most prized property.

BATMAN BEGINS, and the larger DARK KNIGHT TRILOGY, is not content to simply detail the exploits of the iconic hero as he romps through Gotham fighting crime.  It aspires to something greater, using its pulp framework to explore heavy ideological concepts.

Indeed, BATMAN BEGINS often plays like a law school thesis paper masquerading as a summer blockbuster.  While this has an unintentional side effect of forcing its characters to contort themselves into unwieldy “idea delivery machines” rather than sound like living, breathing people, the overall effect is nonetheless one of profound resonance that must have felt quite relevant at a time when news headlines were dominated by overreaching surveillance measures and the controversy of pre-emptive war.

With its exploration of of the urban landscape’s relationship to crime and justice,  BATMAN BEGINS provides an opportunity for Nolan to fully inhabit the wheelhouse of a key influence, Michael Mann.

He uses Batman as an entry point into a philosophical deconstruction of justice itself– what is justice, especially when delivered outside the bounds of conventional law enforcement or the court system?

When it comes to vigilantism, do the ends ever justify the means?  The justice system is just one of many that Nolan utilizes to tell BATMAN BEGINS’ story, taking inspiration from HBO’S THE WIRE in detailing how corruption spreads its tendrils into the various infrastructural systems that support a city.

This can be seen most immediately in the villains’ plot to use Gotham’s water supply as a delivery mechanism for an inert chemical agent that, once activated, causes anyone who ingests it to go insane with fear.

Gotham’s transportation system is also utilized, with an elevated subway car being another delivery mechanism for the machine that will catalyze Scarecrow’s fear drug upon reacting Wayne Tower. We also see social systems, represented by diverse economic castes and the varying appearances of different districts, giving Gotham a tangible, realistic quality that eluded Burton or Schumacher’s rather theatrical interpretations.

There’s an elegant, modern financial district anchored by Wayne Tower and inhabited by Gotham’s privileged class, while the poor and other undesirables are condemned below ground to a seedy, forgotten underbelly that appears to have been, at one point, the street-level Gotham before it was built over by the current one.

There’s also the Narrows, a densely-populated island of slums and abject poverty set apart from the mainland; home to Arkham Asylum and the majority of Gotham’s criminal population.

The inclusion of such a destitute neighborhood as the setting for the film’s climax contrasts directly with the mask of privilege and wealthiness Bruce bears to the public, further illustrating the extent to which he must depart from a life of luxury in order to purge himself of his interior demons.

BATMAN BEGINS’ exploration of urban systems and the malleability of the built environment has come to be a prominent theme in his subsequent work, culminating in INCEPTION and THE DARK KNIGHT RISES with characters physically re-sculpting cities to their own singular designs.

A common image throughout Nolan’s filmography is that of imposing architectural monoliths brought to rubble by a fundamental weakness, an aspect of his artistic character no doubt profoundly affected by 9/11.

BATMAN BEGINS establishes this conceit rather literally, defacing the city streets around Wayne Tower by crashing a runaway subway train into it.  The fact that The Narrows is an island is also important– its isolation from the mainland becomes a critical flaw when Scarecrow’s fear gas is unleashed, instantly transforming the island slum into a confined labyrinth of terror.

In an oblique way, this aspect of BATMAN BEGINS also hits on the magician-like, puzzle-esque nature of his artistic persona, in that he takes something exceedingly mundane like the subway or an urban island and turns it into something of a spectacle.

That same nature also causes him to take what might otherwise be a fairly linear story and jumble up the timeline into a highly strategic non-linear order.  BATMAN BEGINS ostensibly covers Bruce Wayne’s long transformation into Batman, from his first encounter with bats in an old well as a child, to his first victory as a vigilante, and finally to the solidification of his new identity after saving Gotham from an insidious crime syndicate.

However, Nolan doesn’t quite tell the story in that order– at least, not during the first half.  We first meet Bruce as an inmate in a Chinese prison, detailing the circumstances leading up to his meeting Ducard and becoming involved in The League Of Shadows.

While he trains to become one of them, Nolan peppers in flashbacks that fill out the backstory, showing how Bruce’s parents were murdered and how his frustration over being unable to avenge their killer himself led to his travels abroad.

The ordering of these sequences is quite deliberate, calculated in such a way so as to maximize the emotional power of BATMAN BEGINS’ first half by feeding us visceral nuggets of backstory that underscore the context of the scene at hand.

This is what director Guillermo Del Toro is referring to when he calls Nolan an “emotional mathematician”– he evokes emotion by structuring his stories in a way that’s precise and measured– almost to a fault, as his detractors tend to find his films devoid of organic warmth, akin to the gut level revulsion of encountering the uncanny valley.

As Nolan’s filmography has grown, there indeed appears to be a formula for how he structures his stories for maximum emotional impact.  One of the most evident products of this formula is the specific manner in which he ends most of his films, riding an emotional wave conjured by a cathartic montage and swelling score before smash cutting to the film’s title (which is usually the first time we actually see the title itself onscreen).

BATMAN BEGINS marks the first time that Christopher Nolan employs this formula, a choice that’s quite apt for the subject matter and, in particular, the closing scene at hand.

The film naturally accommodates other thematic fascinations of Nolan’s, both established and emerging. BATMAN BEGINS continues a tradition seen in all of his work since FOLLOWING by positioning the protagonist as profoundly flawed.  Admittedly, this has always been a core aspect of the character since his creation by Bob Kane in 1939, but previous Batman pictures mostly chose to overlook it in favor of highlighting his heroic qualities.

Nolan’s Bruce Wayne is a man haunted by a horrible tragedy and desperately in need of a guiding purpose in his life.  His solution to dress up as a bat and fight crime, then, requires an intimidating amount of philosophical reflection in order to combat the sheer psychosis of the idea.

Even then, Bruce knows his quest is doomed– he’s well aware that no amount of crimefighting can bring back his parents or heal his psychological wounds, yet he can’t help but become utterly consumed by his desire for justice.

Nolan’s sartorial fascination with functional style finds plenty of opportunity for indulgence in BATMAN BEGINS, not just in the various utilities of the Batsuit’s design but also in the amount of screentime he allocates to the discussion of what the suits means on a symbolic level.

Finally, BATMAN BEGINS’ expansive, almost operatic scope allows Bruce to be seen travelling the world before settling back in Gotham, whereas previous Batman films never left the city limits.  Nolan would bring this same globetrotting sensibility to his subsequent work, orchestrating his stories so as to require frequent travel to exotic locales that help to convey a larger-than-life scale.

As his career has grown, his travels have extended beyond the confines of Earth itself, venturing to entirely new worlds in INTERSTELLAR’s outer space as well as the lucid unconscious of INCEPTION’s inner space.  BATMAN BEGINS has its sights set on far more modest horizons, employing the dramatic and almost-alien vistas of Iceland as a stand-in for the majestic Himalayan Mountains of Asia.

All of this led up to what was easily the most ambitious film of Nolan’s still-fledgling career.  His ability to convey scale had grown from FOLLOWING’s modest back-alley origins to that of a sweeping overview of an entire city under siege.

His self-confidence as a director, evidenced by his refusal to storyboard or sit in video village during the production of INSOMNIA, enabled him to execute his vision with awe-inspiring clarity while further bucking long-established studio filmmaking practices– indeed, he felt that every shot was so vital to telling his story that he dispatched with a second unit altogether, gathering every single action beat, establishing shot, or insert himself.

While not without its fair share of criticisms, BATMAN BEGINS debuted in the summer of 2005 to very positive reviews, many of which claimed that the Caped Crusader had finally been done cinematic justice.  The film also established Nolan’s enviable ability to create box office juggernauts, earning $373 million in worldwide receipts.

Far from simply being just another summer blockbuster, BATMAN BEGINS has proven highly influential, causing a chain reaction of events still being felt across the cinematic landscape nearly fifteen years later.

Hollywood’s trend of comic book adaptations had truly begun with the success of Bryan Singer’s X-MEN in 2000, but BATMAN BEGINS showed the world that these properties could be something more than just escapist fare– they could be legitimate forums in which to explore complex social and political issues.

Furthermore, it pioneered the now-stale trend of “rebooting” a dormant or failed property as a way to restore its freshness– indeed, CASINO ROYALE and the Daniel Craig-era of the James Bond series was a direct reaction to BATMAN BEGINS.

The success of its limited IMAX run also established a viable market for large format presentations of narrative features, offering a technical advantage suited to huge spectacle that conventional theaters or television simply couldn’t match.  Nolan himself would become enamored of the format previously best known for short-form nature documentaries, beginning a love affair that would fundamentally shape his career.

For audiences, BATMAN BEGINS would begin their love affair with Nolan himself– the character of Batman became, for many, an entry point into the burgeoning director’s particular style of filmmaking and created a whole new wave of Nolan admirers and acolytes.

For the Nolan faithful who had already seen the light with MEMENTO, the massive success of BATMAN BEGINS reinforced their convictions in his formidable technical skill-set and narrative dexterity.

In one fell bat-swoop, Nolan had gone from indie maverick to the biggest VIP on the Warner Brothers lot, well on his way towards a destiny as a director who would revolutionize and revitalize old-fashioned spectacle filmmaking for a new generation of audiences around the world.  The Hollywood machine demanded a sequel, and quickly, but a return trip to Gotham wasn’t on Nolan’s itinerary just yet.


THE PRESTIGE (2006)

Director Christopher Nolan didn’t have to search very far to find the subject material for his follow-up to BATMAN BEGINS– his fifth feature film had already been in development since MEMENTO, and would have been his fourth after INSOMNIA, had Gotham City not beckoned so urgently.

Nolan and his brother Jonathan had been working intermittently over the previous five years adapting Christopher Priest’s 1995 novel “The Prestige”, a tale about dueling magicians in London at the turn of the twentieth century.

The brothers no doubt felt an enormous amount of pressure to deliver a fitting adaptation, considering that they had been chosen by Priest directly over higher-profile filmmakers like Sam Mendes, who wished to make the picture as his own follow-up to the Oscar-winning AMERICAN BEAUTY (1999).

Nolan benefited from Priest’s preference for up-and-coming filmmakers, wowing the author off the strength of FOLLOWING alone, as MEMENTO was still in post-production at the time.  The Nolan brothers attributed the length of their writing process to the complexity of their ambitions, wishing to reshape the form of their screenplay to the thematic structure of the book in a bid to become the cinematic embodiment of the magic trade’s core principles.

Capturing these ideals proved teasingly elusive, to the extent that the brothers delivered the final shooting script only three days before the start of production.  Thankfully, their efforts didn’t go unnoticed– THE PRESTIGE has gone on to become one of Nolan’s most closely-scrutinized efforts, regarded not just as a compelling and complex dramatic thriller, but also as a revelatory expression of Nolan’s own artistic character via the philosophies that inform his craft.

THE PRESTIGE continues Nolan’s symbiotic working relationship with Warner Brothers, who co-produces with Touchstone Pictures, but it also sees him reuniting with Newmarket Films, the entity that launched his career with MEMENTO.

The story is concerned with the sustained game of one-upmanship between rival magicians– the aristocratic American, Robert Angier, played by Hugh Jackman, and the coarse, working-class Englishman, Alfred Borden, played by Christian Bale.

Bale’s casting, as well as Michael Caine’s as a paternal stage engineer named Cutter, reflects how quickly THE PRESTIGE came together once BATMAN BEGINS got off the ground: both actors are able to parlay the creative momentum of their prior collaboration with Nolan into compelling performances that bring the period alive with fresh immediacy.  As the game of wits between Borden and Angier escalates, they draw their friends and family into the fray to increasingly devastating results.

Rebecca Hall fares better than her role as Borden’s increasingly put-upon wife might otherwise suggest, taking what very little she has to work with in terms of dramatic meat and chewing it vigorously.

Scarlett Johansson pulls heavily from the “femme fatale” archetype in her performance as Olivia Wenscombe, a double-crossing magician’s assistant whose allegiance is– to put it politely– fickle.

David Bowie, Andy Serkis, and Ricky Jay round out Nolan’s cast of note;  an inspired trio, considering all three are illusionists in their own right.  Jay is a magic enthusiast in real life, and helped to coach Bale and Jackman in the trade while serving in his role as a fellow magician named Milton.

Serkis is well-known for his innovations with motion capture performance, using digital effects to transcend what the human body can physically do, or transform it into something else entirely.  However, he gets no such opportunity to practice that trade in THE PRESTIGE, in which he plays Nikola Tesla’s decidedly human assistant, Alley.

Bowie plays Tesla himself, the eccentric real-life inventor who is fictionalized here as something of a reclusive wizard of the electric occult– the mastermind behind a mysterious technology that allows Angier to harness a power far beyond his ability to truly understand it.

Returning cinematographer Wally Pfister and production designer Nathan Crowley cement their status as core members of Nolan’s inner collaborative circle, each scoring a respective Oscar nomination for their efforts here.

THE PRESTIGE expectedly reinforces Nolan’s reputation for impeccable cinematography and unrivaled production value– but this time, it almost comes in spite of the significant budgetary resources at his disposal.  Stylistically-speaking, the film has more in common with his earlier independent work than his two recent studio efforts, often employing a handheld camera that finds the 2.35:1 frame organically instead of imposing precise and deliberate compositions on his subjects.

Nolan and Pfister complement this approach by avoiding artificial light whenever possible, which works in unison with the handheld camerawork to bring Nolan’s first recreation of a historical period to vivid life.

Whereas Nolan’s prior reliance on natural light on FOLLOWING was born of practical necessity, his adoption of it here exhibits his supreme confidence as a filmmaker, in that he’s actively choosing to deprive himself of the luxury of a controlled lighting scheme.  It also serves as thematic reinforcement for the story itself, being set in a world that was coming out of the industrial revolution and into a bold new era of electricity.

All this being said, Nolan doesn’t quite fully embrace his indie roots– he still delves regularly into the studio toybox, pulling out dolly tracks, crane arms, and helicopter mounts to imbue his picture with a majestic, classical sense of scale.  Angier’s journey to see Tesla in his isolated compound at Colorado Springs also allows Nolan to dabble with the iconic visual language of the western genre.

Just as he had done with BATMAN BEGINS, production designer Nathan Crowley spent a great deal of THE PRESTIGE’s development process working out of Nolan’s garage, working intimately with the director to establish the physical aesthetic as manifest in the sets, props, and costumes.

THE PRESTIGE utilizes a similar color palette to BATMAN BEGINS, rendering the 35mm film image in earth & metal tones, warming up interior sequences with a cozy amber hue while lathering exteriors in a cold, cobalt veneer.

The color red is used sparingly, saved for the interiors of the majestic theatres or Angier’s Colorado stagecoach so as to better evoke the romanticism of their profession while contrasting it against the grimy working-class environs from which their shows provide a fantastical escape.

Unlike his work on BATMAN BEGINS, Crowley built only one set for THE PRESTIGE– the under-stage section of the theatre where Angier, Borden, and Cutter congregate after a hard day’s work of amazing the unwashed masses.

With the exception of the Universal backlot subbing in for the muddy streets of London, much of THE PRESTIGE was shot on location, giving the film a smoky, industrial texture that simply can’t be replicated on a soundstage.

Some might be surprised to learn that the majority of THE PRESTIGE was shot in Los Angeles, utilizing well-chosen locales that handily pass for 1900’s-era London, like Greystone Mansion– a grand oil tycoon’s estate in Beverly Hills often seen in a variety of other films like The Coen Brothers’ THE BIG LEBOWSKI (1988) or Paul Thomas Anderson’s THERE WILL BE BLOOD (2007).

The various theatres seen throughout the film were found amidst the opulent, forgotten auditoriums and movie palaces of downtown LA’s Broadway Theatre District– many of which had been sitting unused for years, ready to play the part with little need for additional set dressing.

Post-production offers yet another opportunity for Nolan to reteam with previous collaborators.  BATMAN BEGINS’ editor Lee Smith reprises his duties here, effortlessly juggling the complicated machinery of Nolan’s narrative.

Composer David Julyan also returns for his fourth collaboration with Nolan after sitting out the scoring job on BATMAN BEGINS.  Julyan’s suite of cues for THE PRESTIGE bears a heavy resemblance to his prior work for Nolan, foregoing any sort of melodic shape in favor of a brooding, orchestral drone.

Of all the creative aspects that make up THE PRESTIGE, most critics agreed that Julyan’s work here was the weak link, content to be regularly overwhelmed by Nolan’s visuals while offering up very little in the way of its own character.

Indeed, the most interesting aspect of THE PRESTIGE’s music is the fact that Nolan uses the Thom Yorke track “Analyse” over the credits– notable by its rare exception to Nolan’s otherwise-established preference for original score over licensed needledrops.

As of this writing, THE PRESTIGE marks the last time Nolan would work with his oldest collaborator, with the consensus of critical disappointment surrounding Julyan’s score perhaps solidifying Nolan’s burgeoning partnership with Hans Zimmer as a more appropriate fit for the big-budget studio filmmaker he was becoming.

THE PRESTIGE may have been overshadowed in the wake of the larger success of his subsequent films, but it stands to reason that it’s also a highly personal work that most intimately convey’s Nolan’s artistic worldview towards his own profession.  He clearly sees undeniable similarities in the stagecraft behind both magic and filmmaking, like a shared emphasis on sleight of hand and visual trickery to make the audience believe in something unreal, or impossible.

The central philosophy of magic that gives the film its title consists of three prongs– The Pledge, The Turn, and The Prestige.  Nolan weaves this philosophy into the structure of the screenplay itself, assigning each prong to its corresponding act.  The Pledge presents the audience with a seemingly normal object, just as Act 1 introduces the status quo of a particular story’s setting and characters.

The Turn finds the illusionist doing something extraordinary with that object, like making it disappear– a fitting allusion to Act 2’s need to present the protagonist with a problem that must be solved.

But as the film continually reminds us, it’s not enough to make something disappear; you have to bring it back.  Act 3 and The Prestige serve the same purpose: to return to the status quo via extraordinary, and sometimes even supernatural, effort.

In typical Christopher Nolan style, however, THE PRESTIGE doesn’t present it sequence of events in such a simple or linear fashion.  The story rests on a series of key revelations, many of which become more effective or intriguing when the audience doesn’t yet have full context.

Just as he did in his previous films, Nolan and editor Lee Smith chart the rise and fall of both Angier and Borden out of sequence, jumbling up the chronology for strategic effect much like a magician will employ distraction techniques and sleight of hand to conceal the machinery that makes the trick possible.

Angier and Borden also follow in Nolan’s grand parade of profoundly flawed protagonists– both men are consumed by their ambition and competitiveness, driven to do great things that give them renown and acclaim, but also horrible deeds that tarnish their careers with infamy.

Their shared desire for greatness, no matter the cost, becomes their Achilles heel, forcing them to new lows even as they struggle to one-up each other.  Nolan’s interest in functional style takes a necessary turn towards opulence in THE PRESTIGE, dressing his protagonists in peacocking threads that reinforce their strategic need to dazzle their audiences with flash and elegance.

Their garb even serves to conceal complicated undersuits vital to executing dramatic, impossible tricks; best seen in a primitive, mechanical contraption of Cutter’s design that looks like something Batman would have worn had he been born a century earlier.

Nolan’s direction clearly benefits from the confidence and wealth of experience he accumulated on the set of BATMAN BEGINS, navigating the labyrinthine twists and turns of THE PRESTIGE’s narrative with effortless ease and dexterity.

Interestingly enough, THE PRESTIGE was one of three films released in 2006 to deal with the world of magic, the other two being THE ILLUSIONIST and Woody Allen’s SCOOP (which also starred Jackman and Johansson).

The film enjoyed a robust run at the box office and a slew of positive reviews from critics, attaining a level of success it might not have had otherwise, had interest in Nolan’s artistic character not been fueled by the monster hit that was BATMAN BEGINS.

In the years since its release, THE PRESTIGE has only grown in critical and cultural regard, continuing to reveal new layers of thematic complexity and technical mastery with each repeat viewing.


THE DARK KNIGHT (2008)

The runaway success of BATMAN BEGINS in 2005 revitalized the flagging Batman movie franchise, leaving fans clamoring for more of director Christopher Nolan’s expansive and groundbreaking vision.

A sequel was inevitable, but rather than capitalize off the resurgent Batmania by pushing out the next chapter as fast as possible, Warner Brothers executives did something quite unimaginable by today’s standards– they gave Nolan the space and time he needed to regroup and refresh his artistic approach.

THE PRESTIGE served as an effective palette cleanser in this regard, its warm reception further consolidating Nolan’s influence and bolstering his directorial profile as a breakout visionary.  Now that his artistic deck had been cleared, Nolan was ready to consider what a return trip to Gotham City might entail.

There were certain expectations, of course– a sequel would no doubt find Batman operating at the apex of his powers, and BATMAN BEGINS’ ending teaser scene suggested he would finally do battle with his arch-nemesis, The Joker.

Beyond that, Nolan had near-limitless creative and financial freedom to realize his vision.  As it would turn out, that vision would grow to become so complex and ambitious, it would require a canvas no less than four stories tall to properly contain it.

In crafting a fitting follow-up to BATMAN BEGINS, Nolan once again looked to classic graphic novels for inspiration– specifically, THE KILLING JOKE and THE LONG HALLOWEEN, which respectively detailed the origin stories of two iconic Batman villains The Joker and Two-Face.

While he didn’t adapt those stories outright, certain aspects of these comics nevertheless served as touchstones for Nolan’s second foray into the wider Batman universe.  Receiving another story assist from David S. Goyer, Nolan set about crafting the screenplay with his writing partner and brother, Jonathan.

The brothers were intent on using this opportunity to depart significantly from established Batman lore and remake the Caped Crusader in their image, to the extent that they dropped the word “Batman” from the title of their screenplay entirely– a first in the property’s cinematic history.

The title they would use instead — THE DARK KNIGHT –simultaneously invoked one of Batman’s alternate mantles while signaling their intention to transcend the confines of the character’s comic book origins.

To make a Batman movie without “Batman” in the title is an admittedly risky move, and the fact that Warner Brothers allowed this to come to pass speaks volumes about the total trust they placed in Nolan as the current steward of their most-prized property.

As we all know now, their faith would be rewarded many times over, with THE DARK KNIGHT becoming a financial and critical juggernaut that not only installed Nolan as one of Hollywood’s preeminent directors, but fundamentally changed the course of American studio filmmaking for the foreseeable future.

THE DARK KNIGHT picks up roughly nine months after BATMAN BEGINS left off, with the revelation of Batman’s existence compelling the citizens and bureaucrats of Gotham City to build a better, more-just society.

The cobwebs of organized crime that once riddled the city with corruption have been largely swept away to the fringes, held in check by a debilitating fear of an unexpected appearance by Batman (or one of his many knockoff impersonators).

From his vantage point in a spartan penthouse high above the city, Bruce Wayne overlooks a cleaner Gotham and eagerly anticipates the day when Batman’s brand of vigilante justice can be replaced by legitimate agents, like the ascendant District Attorney, Harvey Dent.

Christian Bale reprises his role from BATMAN BEGINS, finding the iconic hero at the peak of his powers.  As this particular incarnation of Bruce Wayne, Bale appears much leaner– gaunt, even–  than he did previously.  This Bruce is a man who is deep into his obsession with justice, burdened by the philosophical weight of his calling and the growing realization his work may never be done.

His best hope for retirement lies in the efforts of Dent, played by Aaron Eckhart in a performance that draws heavily from the legacy of tragic political idealists like Robert F. Kennedy.  Hailed as a “White Knight” and a legitimate response to Batman’s shadow campaign,  the city’s new top cop sets about ridding Gotham of corruption through the court system and a relentless zeal for prosecution.

The relationship between Batman and Harvey Dent is the emotional backbone of THE DARK KNIGHT’s story, with both men bound to each other by principle, ambition, and their love for Rachel Dawes.

Maggie Gyllenhaal replaces BATMAN BEGINS’ Katie Holmes, arguably delivering a superior performance that ably evokes the nuanced heartbreak of loving two men who aren’t just willing, but eager to risk their lives in the name of justice.  She continues to be a key figure in Bruce Wayne’s life, with the switch in performers hardly registering thanks to the compelling and unexpected way in which Nolan expands and develops the character’s arc to its logical — and tragic —  endpoint.

BATMAN BEGINS closed on a triumphant, albeit cautious note– taking great pains to warn of the perils of escalation.  Naturally, THE DARK KNIGHT details how this manifests in a world where the good guys dress like bats and leap off of rooftops.  As the city’s various criminal factions are squeezed to their breaking point, they turn to a man they don’t understand– a psychotic criminal with no allegiances or backstory and known only as The Joker.

Easily the most recognizable and influential of all Batman’s various villains, The Joker as manifest in Nolan’s universe is, first and foremost, an agent of chaos.  He matches Batman’s theatricality even as he positions himself as the Dark Knight’s philosophical antithesis.  He spreads his nihilistic worldview by finding and using the weaknesses that lie in his opponents, turning them against themselves and each other.

After teasing his presence at the end of BATMAN BEGINS, there was much anticipation as to just how exactly Nolan would portray The Joker through the prism of his grounded, real-world approach.

The casting of Heath Ledger, then, was met with a significant amount of premature criticism from the blogosphere– here was a good-looking actor who, while generally regarded as a talented thespian, was so completely outside the physicality expected of someone entrusted to play Batman’s most iconic nemesis.

On top of that, Ledger had to compete with Jack Nicholson’s portrayal of the character in Tim Burton’s BATMAN (1989)– a performance that many considered to be the definitive screen depiction of The Joker.  To prepare, Ledger reportedly locked himself away in an isolated motel room for six weeks, keeping a journal he wrote in character and drawing inspiration from figures like Sid Vicious and Alex DeLarge from A CLOCKWORK ORANGE as he developed and perfected a slithery, serpentine energy all his own.

Topped off by a mop of greasy green hair, smeared face makeup, and a sinister Glasgow Smile, Ledger’s performance immediately silenced the critics the moment he appeared on screen and performed his now-infamous Magic Pencil Trick.

A budding director in his own right, Ledger  went as far as directing the Joker’s hostage videos himself– a rare instance of Nolan ceding total directorial control, and an illustratration of both Ledger’s complete command of the character and Nolan’s unwavering trust in him as a collaborator.

The collective interest in Ledger’s depiction of the Joker was no doubt magnified by his untimely death in January 2008, which fueled something of a morbid fascination considering he was playing such a ghoulish character.

When the final product was unveiled, Ledger’s last complete performance was met with unanimous praise by critics and audiences alike, generating a wave of appreciation that culminated in a posthumous Oscar win for the late actor in the Best Supporting Actor category– a first for the superhero genre.

Since then, Ledger’s depiction of The Joker has gone on to invade our collective consciousness, leaving behind a legacy of anarchic iconography that’s been used in anything and everything: from political protest memes, to Halloween costumes and, most unfortunately, real-world copycat killers.

Nolan’s handling of the equally-iconic villain Harvey Two-Face was also fraught with peril– a rogue made infamous by the grotesque disfigurement covering half his body and his penchant for flipping a coin over his murderous decisions, the character as established in the comics was already a far cry from Nolan’s vision of a grounded reality.

Tommy Lee Jones’ hamball depiction in Joel Schumacher’s BATMAN FOREVER (1995) was essentially Diet Joker, so Nolan and Eckhart had a low hurdle to clear when it came to molding an adversary who could hold his own against Ledger’s dominating performance.

As mentioned previously, Harvey Dent’s fall from grace is the major dramatic through-line of THE DARK KNIGHT, with his death having profound implications for Gotham’s future that will resonate through the remainder of the trilogy.  Nolan takes great care to establish the monster already lying within before Dent’s fateful transformation, showing how his passion for justice and his friends can be perverted and twisted in a way that betrays his core principles.

The loss of Rachel Dawes and the burning of half his body in a gasoline fire orchestrated by The Joker doesn’t drive him to evil, it only brings out the evil that was there all along– simmering beneath his good looks and cool confidence.  Nolan and Eckhart wisely imbue Harvey Two-Face with a tragic sympathy that allows the audience to swallow the more outlandish aspects of his character, and more crucially, mourn for the loss of Gotham’s bright future during his brief reign of terror.

Owing to the film’s epic sense of scope and vision of a city gripped by crisis, a large  supporting cast anchors Nolan’s core players while serving as a testament to his ability to attract prestigious talent.  Familiar faces like Michael Caine, Morgan Freeman, Gary Oldman, and Cillian Murphy reprise their respective roles from BATMAN BEGINS, their loyalty rewarded with compelling dramatic arcs all their own.

Caine’s Alfred is the same dependable old butler he’s always been, but the burden of keeping Bruce’s secrets is clearly beginning to take its toll on him.  Freeman’s Lucius Fox continues to balance supplying Batman with updated crime-fighting gear while running Wayne Enterprises, but we also find him grappling with the ethical dilemmas inherent in assisting a vigilante unbound by the constraints of legitimate justice systems.
In order to find and combat The Joker, Batman has to resort to ever more-precarious methods of surveillance that blur the line between right and wrong– in this context, Fox becomes something of a cypher for 2008 audiences grappling with their own ideological standing on The War On Terror’s overreaching domestic surveillance measures.  Oldman’s Jim Gordon is more grizzled and battle-hardened since we last saw him, and his continued immunity against corruption sees him finally elevated to his character’s classic rank of Commissioner.

As Jonathan Crane and his villainous alter-ego Scarecrow, Murphy finds his character having fallen on hard times since the failure of his plot in BATMAN BEGINS– his influence reduced to that of a lowly drug dealer hawking his toxic fear compound as a recreational hallucinogen.

A few new faces join the fray, such as Eric Roberts, Nestor Carbonell, Anthony Michael Hall, and William Fichtner.  Roberts plays the smug heir to the Falcone crime empire, Salvatore Marone; his general ineffectiveness symbolizing organized crime’s waning grip on the city.

Carbonell draws influence from real-world bureaucrats like then-Los Angeles Mayor, Antonio Villaraigosa, in his performance as Gotham City’s mayor, Anthony Garcia — a confident and idealistic politician who is eager to usher in a new age of prosperity for his beloved city.

Hall, better known for his turns in various John Hughes movies as a gangly awkward teenager, appears all grown-up here as a prominent news anchor who finds himself ensnared by The Joker’s masterful manipulation of the media.  Fichtner is the first of Nolan’s many nods to Michael Mann’s HEAT (1995), cast as a feisty bank clerk during the Joker’s robbery sequence that opens the film.

Whereas BATMAN BEGINS used the idea of fear as its thematic backbone, THE DARK KNIGHT organizes its narrative around the central theme of chaos.  The Joker’s chief objective is to break down the established order by calling attention to the fragility of the ideological pillars that hold it up.

A rigid structure that won’t bend will break instead, rendering itself ineffective against a force that needs no structure whatsoever.  He sows the seed of doubt in his victims, calling into question their inherent natures, and then simply sits back and enjoys the ensuing fireworks as they do the destruction for him.

A perfect example of this is the chaos that ensues when The Joker calls on the citizens of Gotham to murder a Wayne employee who is threatening to reveal the identity of Batman.  If the man isn’t dead within an hour, he’ll blow up a hospital– the identity of which he strategically declines to divulge.  Faced with the prospect of losing their loved ones, the citizens of Gotham turn out en masse to eliminate the employee, besieging the police with an overwhelming and unpredictable wave of opposition.

THE DARK KNIGHT’s expansive canvas allows for the exploration of several other core concepts that inform the greater scope of the trilogy, such as escalation and various sociopolitical systems.  Foreshadowed by Gordon at the end of BATMAN BEGINS, escalation becomes a major driving force of THE DARK KNIGHT’s story– in their desperation, Gotham’s criminal underworld takes on a theatricality to match Batman’s, while their efforts become more pronounced and destructive.

Batman’s vigilantism inspires a slew of copycat wanna-be’s decked out in hockey pads and armed with shotguns.  Even Batman’s crime-fighting techniques become more invasive and unethical as he’s forced to lower himself to combat The Joker’s unconventional campaign.

Indeed, Christopher Nolan uses THE DARK KNIGHT to explore how the cost of justice is higher when doing combat with an agent of chaos– the sheer unpredictability and absence of a pattern necessitates the blurring of the thin blue line that stands between criminality and law & order.  While these ideas resonate regardless of time or context, THE DARK KNIGHT felt profoundly resonant in 2008, drawing clear parallels to the Bush Administration’s use of overreaching measures like the Patriot Act to combat terrorism at home and abroad.

Critics were divided on whether Nolan’s treatment of the subject matter was critical or actually supportive of these policies, which reflects not on Nolan’s ability to convey a stance on the subject, but rather the ethical quandaries that such a complicated subject engenders.  Rather than simply retread his exploration of the justice system from BATMAN BEGINS, Nolan finds new avenues to wander, showing how the system is limited by the arbitrary boundaries of jurisdiction.

A city cop in New York simply can’t go and arrest someone in Boston, for example– only an agency with federal jurisdiction like the FBI can do that.  However, a vigilante unaffiliated with an official law enforcement agency has no such limitation.  THE DARK KNIGHT finds Batman venturing outside of Gotham for the first time on-screen, traveling to Hong Kong to forcibly extraditable a corrupt accountant back to Gotham to answer for his crimes there.

As Batman, he can do things the Gotham PD can’t– a power that serves him well when needed, but also casts the nature of his heroism into doubt.  One of the film’s most memorable lines belongs to Harvey Dent: “you either die a hero, or you live long enough to become the villain”.

The legality of Batman’s crimefighting forays has always been a grey area, but can usually be justified on an ethical level.  The nature of The Joker’s antagonism forces Batman to compromise his ethics, building a giant array of networked cell phones that visualizes signals into a kind of sonar so that he can better track his nemesis.

Indeed, the manipulation of communications systems like cell phones, satellites, and transmission towers as weapons to use against the populace echoes BATMAN BEGINS’ use of water & transportation systems for similar ends.

The blatant privacy invasion of spying on the city’s population via their cell phones has profound implications for the righteousness of Batman’s quest, setting the stage for his self-imposed exile at the end of the film.

The Joker’s self-proclaimed “ace in the hole” is his turning of Dent into a homicidal maniac– a development that stands to destroy the morale of Gotham’s citizens and tear down everything Batman and Gordon have worked so far to build.  In order to beat The Joker, Batman realizes he must take the fall for Dent’s crimes, sacrificing his heroic standing so that the dream of a better Gotham can survive.

THE DARK KNIGHT represents a major turning point in the development of Nolan’s visual aesthetic, establishing a super-sized approach to cinematic spectacle that’s since become his dominant artistic signature.  The bulk of the picture was shot on 35mm film in the 2.35:1 aspect ratio, but in his pursuit of higher image quality over technical gimmickry, Nolan chose to shoot crucial action sequences and other select shots with IMAX cameras.

A longtime tenant in the nature documentary realm, IMAX had never been used to shoot all or even a portion of a conventional Hollywood feature, and for good reason: the cameras were gigantic, bulky, and cumbersome, and the mechanical noise produced by the 70mm film running horizontally through the camera meant that any sound captured on-set was often unusable.

Shooting a simple dialogue scene, let alone an ambitious action sequence, posed enormous logistical problems that would scare away any filmmaker– but Nolan was undeterred; he reasoned that if an IMAX camera could be lugged up into space, then there’s no reason it couldn’t be used for studio filmmaking.

This understandably caused no shortage of skepticism and trepidation on the part of Nolan’s crew — especially the Steadicam operator, who had to physically mount that monster onto his body on a regular basis — but Nolan’s supreme confidence and eagerness to innovate pushed them through their initial wariness to deliver an awe-inspiring cinematic experience the likes of which had never been seen before.

Nolan and returning cinematographer Wally Pfister found they had to adjust certain aspects of their style accordingly, such as designing their IMAX compositions to leave a significant amount of dead space at the top of the frame.

This was done to compensate for their discovery that audiences faced with a four-story screen had to keep their eyes trained towards the center out of sheer necessity.  While the use of IMAX is vital to conveying the truly epic scale of Nolan’s vision, its intermixing with the Cinemascope 35mm footage makes for an admittedly disorienting viewing experience at first– especially on home video.

While he uses IMAX mostly for self-contained sequences like the opening bank heist, he also employs it for select aerials and individual “statement” shots, which causes an abrupt change in the aspect ratio, filling out the screen at one moment and then compressing into the letterbox form factor in another.

To Nolan’s credit, however, one becomes quickly accustomed to the shift, and it ultimately doesn’t detract from the power of his storytelling.  It is a testament to Nolan’s reputation as a visionary that his use of IMAX has only seldomly been adopted by other directors– indeed, shooting a large portion of his films in the format has become a high-profile artistic signature of his, to the degree that anyone else who tries it risks being seen as a copycat or a pale imitation.

Rather than simply replicate the general aesthetic of BATMAN BEGINS, Nolan and returning collaborators, Wally Pfister and Nathan Crowley, expand upon its conceit of a cinematic reality by further embracing an air of immediate and visceral realism in the sequel.  Pfister’s cinematography departs from the amber-toned look of BATMAN BEGINS in favor of a colder, steel & stone color palette that consists primarily of greys, blues, and greens.

Nolan maintains his use of classical, spectacle-oriented camerawork, covering Batman’s crime-fighting forays with a mixture of grandiose dolly shots, majestic cranes, and sweeping helicopter aerials while also sprinkling in the occasional handheld move, speeding Russian arm maneuver, or circular dolly.

The circular dolly in particular is an admittedly overused technique in contemporary filmmaking — a quick and easy way to add stylistic flair — but Nolan finds the perfect use for it in a sequence where the Joker taunts Rachel Dawes at a high society political fundraiser, unmooring the audience’s sense of safety and building the suspense with a dizzying loss of control.

In a rather surprising move for a Batman film, Nolan chooses to stage a great deal of THE DARK KNIGHT in the cold light of day.  As such, the film’s aesthetic deals in bright washes of natural light instead of the sculpted theatricality of BATMAN BEGINS’ noir-influenced lighting scheme.

Crowley’s production design echoes this sentiment, foregoing the control of a soundstage for the tactile realism of a location shoot.  Nolan and his team once again use Chicago as the base for their particular conception of Gotham, but refrain from obscuring it behind layers of exaggeration and stylistic artifice as they did on BATMAN BEGINS.

As a result, the Gotham City of THE DARK KNIGHT feels like a real world location, and not one from a comic book.  Just look at the dramatic differences in the facade of Wayne Tower between the two films– BATMAN BEGINS features Wayne Tower as a grand Art Deco spire anchored to the center of Gotham, whereas THE DARK KNIGHT’s rendition is simply just another hulking slab of concrete and glass rendered in a generic, corporate style of architecture.

This isn’t Nolan and Crowley’s only major departure from established BATMAN lore– the sacking of Wayne Manor in the previous installment gives the filmmakers an excuse to relocate Bruce to a spartan penthouse high above the city, which makes for a compelling change of scenery while adhering to the core themes of Nolan’s story.

Gone too is the iconic Batcave, replaced by a minimalist bunker hidden underneath a shipping yard and accessed via an elevator hidden inside an unassuming container.  It’s here that Batman temporarily stores his computers, suits, and his Tumbler, which Nolan has the audacity to destroy during a major chase sequence.

In doing so, he reveals a secondary vehicle hidden inside: the Batpod, which is essentially a futuristic motorcycle built from the machinery around the Tumbler’s oversized front tires and gifted with the kind of supernatural maneuverability that the Hell’s Angels could only dream of.

The major risk in developing Batman’s world out to include more toys and tech is the power it gives to the merchandising department — it is, after all, the original sin that sunk Joel Schumacher’s BATMAN & ROBIN and put the franchise into a coma for nearly a decade.

Thankfully, Nolan’s expansion of Batman’s crime-fighting tools is done first and foremost in service to story, merchandising needs be damned.  This kind of artistic integrity strengthens his overall vision, giving it a palpable weight and gravitas that commonly eludes other comic book adaptations.

On the postproduction side, Nolan retains key collaborators like editor Lee Smith and composing team Hans Zimmer and James Newton Howard.  Grandiose but understated at the same time, Lee’s work often gets lost in the conversation, upstaged by the more immediate aspects of THE DARK KNIGHT’s craftsmanship.

However, Lee proves himself a crucial contributor to Nolan’s aesthetic, his ability to trace and intercut multiple parallel lines of action across one sustained sequence dovetailing effortlessly with Nolan’s epic scope and penchant for orchestrating the action like a symphony– each character thread becoming, in effect, its own instrument; played in harmony with the others and swelling to a climactic crescendo.

A prime example of this is the fateful sequence where Batman must choose to save Rachel Dawes or Harvey Dent, only for his choice to be foiled by The Joker’s tricky manipulations.

There’s several different threads going on here that Nolan and Smith must track– Rachel and Harvey being held captive, each in a separate location that’s primed to explode at the same time; Batman, racing across the city to save Rachel; Gordon with the assist, racing to the other end of the city to save Harvey; and The Joker, stuck in custody at the MCU and taunting his captors even as he puts his escape plan into action.

Nolan and Smith expertly orchestrate a cascading series of events towards their stunning conclusion, cross-cutting between the various threads so as to wring out the maximum amount of suspense.

The original score by Zimmer and Howard works overtime in this regard, driving the action with a thundering orchestral sound that develops and expands upon the themes introduced in BATMAN BEGINS.  A brand new theme for The Joker was to be expected, but Zimmer and Howard manage to produce a unique sound that no one could have expected.

Foregoing any sort of symphonic sound entirely, the composing team captures the anarchic essence of The Joker by distilling his theme down to a single, solitary note.  A mix of string instruments are electronically manipulated to produce an unconventional sound, their pitch seemingly escalating in perpetuity without breaking.

The effect is profoundly — and appropriately —  unsettling, like dancing on the edge of a razor.  The Joker’s theme mirrors the minimalism of Batman’s theme even as it becomes its ideological counterweight, musically reinforcing THE DARK KNIGHT’s emphasis on Batman’s and The Joker’s yin-and-yang relationship in an inspired and wholly unexpected manner.

With its ambitions and successful execution as a sprawling urban crime drama, THE DARK KNIGHT owes a profound debt to the influence of Michael Mann’s 1995 masterpiece, HEAT.  A self-styled acolyte of Mann’s, Nolan finds in THE DARK KNIGHT a prime opportunity to make his own HEAT equivalent, albeit one where the bank robbers wear clown masks instead of ski masks.

Indeed, there are many direct connections to Mann’s film that we can draw from THE DARK KNIGHT.  In both its conception and execution, the opening bank heist sequence reads as a comic book twist on HEAT’s centerpiece scene, right down to the tactical minutiae and precision timing the criminals employ to successfully carry out the operation.

It’s not a coincidence that William Fichtner cameos in this scene, his presence serving as a playful nod to his Van Zandt character from HEAT.  While Van Zandt was a fairly meek criminal banker predisposed to hiding out in his office when the going got rough, here he’s empowered with the braggadocious confidence that only a high-powered shotgun can provide.

HEAT’s influence continues to course through THE DARK KNIGHT, whether it’s the latter inheriting the former’s signature cobalt & steel color palette, or Bruce’s spartan penthouse echoing Neil McCauley’s infamously empty beachside condo.

The fateful interrogation sequence between Batman and The Joker riffs on HEAT’s iconic coffee shop scene, with both staging themselves respectively as a battle of wits between two men sitting around a table and psychoanalyzing each other until they realize they have met their ideological inverse and intellectual equal.

Additionally, Gordon is shown heading up Gotham’s Major Crimes Unit, the same department that Al Pacino’s Vincent Hanna commanded in HEAT.  Indeed, Nolan lavishes a substantial amount of attention on the inner workings of the law enforcement complex as it pertains to government and the maintaining of order.

Naturally, they have their work cut out for them in regards to The Joker, and must respond in a far more dramatic fashion than Hanna’s crew in HEAT ever did.  Among its many praises during release, critics marveled how THE DARK KNIGHT had transcended the trappings of the superhero genre to become a truly great urban crime drama– even then, the comparisons to HEAT were admittedly immediate, but the fact remains that, by applying HEAT’s storytelling template to the world of Batman, Nolan showed that a comic book movie could be so much more than its source material, and that the character of Batman was more relevant to our current political climate than ever before.

THE DARK KNIGHT echoes Tim Burton’s sequel BATMAN RETURNS, in that both he and Nolan found their sensibilities somewhat constrained on their respective first films by the nature of the property and the expectations of the fans.  In other words, they were compelled to deliver fairly straightforward takes on the Caped Crusader while suppressing certain aspects of their artistic signature.

The opportunity of a sequel repays their good faith, giving them more creative control as a reward for their responsible stewardship.  In this regard, THE DARK KNIGHT is first and foremost a Christopher Nolan film, and a Batman movie second.

The character provides a natural conduit for the exploration and development of many of Nolan’s directorial signatures, to the extent that THE DARK KNIGHT becomes a defining work in his filmography.

Nolan’s narratives have always concerned the personal and intimate plights of profoundly-flawed male protagonists, but BATMAN BEGINS marked the turning point where these plights began to play out on an epic, monumental scale.  The grief and rage that drives Bruce Wayne and his crime-fighting alter-ego had been well-established in BATMAN BEGINS and the decades of comic book lore prior, and those same scars continue to inform the character in THE DARK KNIGHT.

His psychological issues remain unresolved, even after delivering Gotham into a period of relative peace and prosperity– his parents are still dead, and his love for Rachel Dawes remains unrequited.  The events of THE DARK KNIGHT compound his trauma by shattering his hopes for a better life with Rachel, as well as his dream of the day when he can give up the mantle of Batman entirely.

Indeed, Bruce’s emotional trajectory throughout the film revolves around his questioning the necessity of Batman’s existence and the devastating consequences he’s wrought upon the city he swore to protect.  The two and a half-hour running time provides ample room for Bruce’s arc to play out on Nolan’s largest scale yet, showing how his actions reverberate throughout the whole of Gotham.

As mentioned previously, Nolan even finds the time and a justifiable narrative reason for Batman to travel to Hong Kong, further expanding the scope of his story while satisfying his own directorial fondness for globetrotting narratives.  While many other blockbuster spectacles can lay claim to a similar epic scale on running time or narrative sprawl alone, very few deliver it with the visceral weight and tangible physicality that THE DARK KNIGHT and Nolan’s larger filmography does.

His pursuit of practical effects wherever possible is undoubtedly a key contributor to this effect, grounding THE DARK KNIGHT’s astonishing cascade of spectacle with the gravity of real-world physics.

The world of computer-generated imagery allows us to destroy entire star systems or bring back actors long since dead, but as impressive as those visual feats are, they somehow pale in comparison to the visceral physicality of flipping a Freightliner upside-down on an actual city street or physically blowing up the entirety of a full-scale building.

Of course, one simply can’t make a movie like THE DARK KNIGHT without a generous dose of CGI, but by choosing practical in-camera effects wherever possible, Nolan successfully imbues the film with the kind of monumental gravitas that marked the classic epics from which he drew inspiration.

The bulk of Nolan’s larger filmography takes place in urban environs– as such, man’s relationship with architecture and the built environment forms an integral component of his artistic aesthetic.

THE DARK KNIGHT surveys the tapestry of urban life and its various social systems from a birds-eye view, encompassing so much of the city’s sprawl that many critics at the time argued a better title for the film would have been, simply, “GOTHAM CITY”.

Just as he examines how the contours of Gotham shape the flow of his narrative, so too does Nolan use THE DARK KNIGHT to explore the malleability of the urban landscape, and how those same contours can be actively reshaped for the purposes of criminality or justice.

Batman’s ability to glide between rooftops allows him to navigate the urban labyrinth of Gotham in a manner far different than the civilians below.  He can create doors and entrances for himself where there were none previously.

He can take advantage of negative space within a building’s design, turning it into a shortcut accessible only to him. An arsenal of equipment and a re-tooled Batsuit facilitates these abilities, giving him an edge by navigating Gotham in ways that conventional law enforcement officials cannot.

The Joker enjoys similar advantages, albeit through lower-tech tools like gunpowder and gasoline, but his use of them nonetheless positions him as Batman’s equal and a formidable counterweight.

Their mutual ascent to this elevated plane naturally manifests in a palpable theatricality, which Nolan balances with his artistic interest in functional style.  A common complaint shared by previous Batmen like Michael Keaton and Christian Bale’s current iteration alike is the sheer discomfort of Batman’s latex rubber suit– the outfit was a single, heavy piece that was hot, stuffy, and greatly restricted mobility and vision.

Bale famously channeled the anger and the crippling headaches he felt inside the suit into his performance for BATMAN BEGINS, using the pain and discomfort to his benefit.  For THE DARK KNIGHT, the filmmakers wanted to design a new, functional Batsuit that would reduce these problems, and so replaced the latex with individual plates of armor conjoined by a mesh undersuit.

The final result is a dramatic reinterpretation of Batman’s iconic outfit that maintains the classic silhouette– a design that Nolan actively works into the narrative by having Bruce communicate to Lucius Fox his desire for a more functional suit that can stand up to the elevated threat posed by The Joker.  The Clown Prince of Crime’s sartorial sensibilities also echo the conceit of functional style– his scraggly purple suit pays homage to the character’s classically campy appearance from the comic books while staying within the confines of Nolan’s grounded reality.

As evidenced by the fact that his handmade clothing contains no labels, The Joker’s choice of outfit appropriately conveys his anarchic identity, but it also serves a tactical use– whether it’s the cavernous pockets of his overcoat hiding an array of explosives rigged to his person, or a stinger blade hidden in his boots that can pop out at will.

Finally, one cannot talk about THE DARK KNIGHT as a definitive work in Nolan’s canon without mention of what is arguably the core component of his directorial identity– time, and the manipulation thereof.  BATMAN BEGINS unspooled in somewhat non-linear fashion, incorporating flashbacks at strategic story junctures as Bruce gradually became Batman.

With his vigilante alter-ego firmly established, THE DARK KNIGHT naturally inhabits a constant forward flow of time; its story progressing in linear order.  That being said, the manipulation of time does serve an important narrative function.  The trope of the “ticking clock” is about as cliched as they come, but it’s nonetheless a vital tool to generate suspense for the audience.

The Joker incorporates this tool into his own arsenal, using “the ticking clock” as a way to persuade his victims to act against their self-interests or compromise their principles.  The best instance of this is also one of the highlights of the entire film– a nail-biting suspense sequence where two ferries carrying a load of law-abiding civilians and incarcerated felons respectively are revealed to be rigged with explosives.

The Joker’s characteristic twist on the situation is that he’s given both boats the detonator to the other bomb, challenging them each to blow the other sky-high before a predetermined time– if neither side hits the button before time runs out, then he’ll personally blow both boats with his own detonator.  This sets up an agonizing moral quandary for the occupants of either boat: do they destroy the other boat to save their own lives?  The fact that one of the boats is filled with convicted criminals adds another wrinkle to the dilemma– the law-abiding civilians would be justified in hitting the button, citing their fear that the criminals would not have the same respect for human life as they do.

However, to do so would be to pass blind judgment on the inmates, denying their humanity and capacity for compassion and, in effect, making them more inhuman than the killers and rapists they stand to destroy.

This sequence, which could have made for a captivating feature film in its own right, uses the pressure of a ticking clock to effortlessly distill THE DARK KNIGHT’s core conflict between civilized society and anarchy to its ideological essence.

Additionally, Nolan’s fondness for cross-cutting between parallel threads of action allows him to manipulate time himself, compressing it into one cosmic instance across sprawling distances.  Naturally, this does away with the objective truth that real time provides, but Nolan inherently understands that cinema has the unique ability to subvert the flow of time while uncovering the emotional truth hidden underneath.

To Nolan, time is not an unstoppable, forward-marching force beyond our control — it is merely another storytelling tool; a dimension that can be stepped outside of and manipulated to his will.  THE DARK KNIGHT makes frequent use of this technique, structuring its story around several nexus points of action like the opening bank heist, the Hong Kong extradition, the Wacker Drive chase, or the hostage situation in the unfinished tower, and subsequently compressing time and space into tidy narrative blocks that each build to a cathartic emotional release.

The end result is an experience that some critics decried as a breathless succession of 3rd-Act climaxes– an admittedly reductive judgment, to be sure, but one that aims to convey the impression that a lot happens in THE DARK KNIGHT.

Simply put, Nolan’s vision for the film is exhaustive; his epic ambitions and his tackling of some of the most iconic aspects of Batman lore combine to make what is arguably the ultimate screen adaptation of the Caped Crusader.  Nolan’s ability to compress long narrative distances over short spans of time is a key aspect of his artistic skill set, and in the case of THE DARK KNIGHT, it is a major driving force behind the film’s critical and commercial success.

Indeed, to call THE DARK KNIGHT “a success” is an extreme understatement– it’s essentially THE GODFATHER PART II of superhero films in both execution and critical standing.  By any reasonable metric, the film’s release and reception proved a watershed moment in mainstream studio filmmaking, the effects of which are still reverberating across the cinematic landscape nearly a decade later.

Just as BATMAN BEGINS sparked the trend of the “dark and gritty” reboot, THE DARK KNIGHT inspired a countless wave of bombastic imitators that drew the wrong lessons from Nolan’s success, like equating an epic scope with bloated running times or reveling in misguided dramatic beats masquerading as “bold” storytelling.

Produced for $185 million dollars and scoring over a billion dollars in ticket sales to become the 26th highest-grossing film of all time, THE DARK KNIGHT was a box office success of biblical proportions.  To put this into perspective, it only took six days for THE DARK KNIGHT to surpass the numbers posted by BATMAN BEGINS’ entire domestic run.

The film’s monumental success was the result of a perfect storm of factors: it belonged to an iconic franchise with a rabid global fanbase, it was a highly-anticipated sequel to a well-received predecessor, and it was film by a director known for his riveting storytelling and impeccable technical craftsmanship, to name just a few.

The X factor, the one thing it had that other films of its caliber did not, was Ledger’s tragic death– and the morbid curiosity it fueled at the prospect of witnessing the final performance of an actor as such a ghoulish character.

Nolan’s desire to transcend the confines of the comic book genre propelled THE DARK KNIGHT all the way to the Oscars, where it was nominated in eight categories and would win for Best Sound Editing and Best Supporting Actor.

The Academy obviously leaves a tangible impression on the films it honors, but rarely does it happen the other way around– THE DARK KNIGHT’s failure to score a nomination for Best Picture or Best Director was seen by many in the industry as an injustice (if not an outright travesty), and the ensuing chatter was so loud that, the following year, the Academy doubled the number of nomination slots in the Best Picture category from five to ten in a bid to be more inclusive of well-received films that didn’t quiet meet the conventional expectations of an “Oscar-worthy” picture.

It may have failed to enshrine itself in Oscar glory, but THE DARK KNIGHT is a triumph from every conceivable angle.

It’s not hyperbole to call THE DARK KNIGHT the most quintessential mainstream American film of the 2000’s– its identity is profoundly shaped by the ideas and anxieties that drove the course of history around it.

As for Christopher Nolan himself, the film is arguably his most definitive work– the capstone to a towering and influential body of work that still has several decades yet to play out.


INCEPTION (2010)

With the staggering success of THE DARK KNIGHT, director Christopher Nolan was in a prime position to make whatever he wanted.  Rather than capitalize off his momentum with a third Batman film, he turned instead to a long-gestating passion project he’d been thinking about since he was a teenager.

He’d always been fascinated by the experience of dreams, drawing many parallels between the nonlinear logic of dreamscapes to his professional practice as a filmmaker.

He pitched his initial kernel of this idea to Warner Brothers after the completion of INSOMNIA, describing it as something of a horror film set within the architecture of the mind.  With the studio’s approval, he went off to write it as a spec that he would simply deliver as soon as he finished it.

That process would ultimately take eight years, its slow pace dictated by the rigorous mind pretzels required in formulating its plot as well as his expansive and time-consuming forays into the Batman universe.  Given the name INCEPTION, the script that Nolan delivered to Warner Brothers in 2009 was a far cry from what he had initially pitched– indeed, he had orchestrated an action thriller so complex and stunningly inventive that it could be thought of as the ultimate “high concept” movie.

Naturally, the price tag to realize such an effort would be enough to stop other filmmakers in their tracks, but INCEPTION’s $160 million budget was an easy ask considering Nolan had just delivered one of Warner Brother’s most successful films in its century-long history.

Even then, the studio had to partner with Legendary Pictures just to cover it all.  In relatively short order, Nolan and his producing partner / wife, Emma Thomas, were off shooting his seventh feature film– one of the most ambitious and original visions cinema had ever seen.

INCEPTION is structured as a fantastical heist set, in Nolan’s words, within the architecture of the mind.  While the story is packed with an overwhelming amount of fantastical imagery, arguably the most outlandish aspect is the proposed existence of experimental military technology that allows people to enter and act within an individual’s dreams.  Nolan’s story focuses on a rogue group that has repurposed this technology to extract information from a target’s subconscious in the name of corporate espionage.

As mentioned in a previous episode, Nolan’s microbudget indie debut FOLLOWING can be read as something like a first draft of the story that would ultimately become INCEPTION.  Both films are structured as heists of the mind, and both feature a slickly-dressed character named Cobb.

Leonardo DiCaprio plays the latter iteration– a major score for Nolan personally, as he had endeavored to work with the actor many times before and had thus far been unable to secure his participation.

It’s interesting, then, to note that DiCaprio’s portrayal of protagonist Dom Cobb seems to be a fictionalization of Nolan himself, from his unique intellectual acuity down to the external aspects like a shared hairstyle, goatee, and buttoned-down sartorial sense.

The latest tortured hero in Nolan’s grand parade of them, Cobb is a reluctant expat with a tragic past, and is given the chance to return to his children in the States by a wealthy Japanese businessman named Saito.

Played by BATMAN BEGINS’ Ken Watanabe in a role that makes full use of his refined talents, Saito offers Cobb this last shot at redemption in exchange for a journey into the mind of a business rival with the aim to plant the idea of dissolving his company into his mind.
To help him achieve this task, Cobb recruits a crew of professionals, each with their own specialty.

In determining what particular talents would translate to the manipulation of the dream state, Nolan used the roles he knew best:  the various positions of a film crew.  As such, each member of Cobb’s team possesses expertise and experience analogous to the filmmaking process. If Cobb is the director, then his manager / researcher, Arthur, is his producer.

Played by Joseph Gordon-Levitt, Arthur is cool, calm, and collected under pressure, but finds himself frequently tangling with Cobb over things he couldn’t have accounted for.  The production designer finds her analogue in Ellen Page’s Ariadne, a graduate architecture student who puts her talents to work designing the worlds of these dreams.

A charismatic master of disguise, Tom Hardy’s character, Eames, describes himself as a “forger”, embodying any role needed to manipulate the target much like an actor does.  Saito acts much like a studio, bankrolling the entire operation and insisting on overseeing the process so that he can ensure his funds are spent wisely.

All of the crew’s efforts are focused towards manipulating the emotions of Robert Fischer, the petulant heir to a vast business empire.  Played by Cillian Murphy in his third of many appearances throughout Nolan’s work, Fischer becomes aware of the crew’s attempts to deceive and incept him.

They must suspend his disbelief while appealing to his emotion, to the extent that they eventually bring him into the heist himself as an active participant.  Knowing all this, it becomes clear that Fischer is akin to the audience, albeit a particularly savvy one that’s seen it all before and stands resistant to cinema’s transcendent charms.

Nolan’s supporting cast doesn’t quite deal in the same clear-cut filmmaking metaphors as Cobb’s crew, but they nevertheless turn in compelling performances that reinforce the director’s ability to attract some of the finest talent around. Since BATMAN BEGINS, Michael Caine has become a stalwart presence in Nolan’s work.

His performance here as university professor and Cobb’s father-in-law, Miles, amounts to little more than a cameo in terms of screentime, but his presence injects a profound emotional resonance to the story by making him the last living link Cobb has to his own children.

Marion Cotillard plays Cobb’s deceased wife, Mal, who killed herself over her inability to separate her dreams from her reality and now lives on as a malevolent projection of Cobb’s subconscious, sabotaging his efforts at every turn.

The character is arguably more of a plot device than a full-fledged entity, but Cotillard nevertheless gives it her all, creating a beautiful, menacing ghost who haunts not just Cobb’s dreams, but every aspect of his waking life.

Lukas Haas, Dileep Rao, Tom Berenger, and Pete Postlethwaite round out INCEPTION’s cast of note: Haas as the original architect on Cobb’s crew who’s given up to Saito’s colleagues when he bungles a mission; Rao as the chemist who creates the specialized sedative that enables shared dreaming; Postlethwaite, in one of his final roles, as Robert Fischer’s bedridden father; and Berenger as Fischer’s business partner and an advisor of sorts to Robert.

Visually speaking, INCEPTION is arguably Nolan’s most audacious work, filled to the brim with wild, impossible imagery.  Nolan continues his creative partnership with cinematographer Wally Pfister, who would go on to win the Academy Award for his efforts here.

INCEPTION reinforces Nolan’s commitment to film, as well as his preference for large formats over marketing gimmickry like 3D– indeed, the studio had initially approached him to shoot the film in 3D, but thankfully Nolan had the clout to flat-out deny their request.  Instead, he and Pfister capture their preferred 2.35:1 frame on good, old-fashioned 2D 35mm film.  Despite his positive experiences shooting on IMAX cameras for THE DARK KNIGHT, Nolan doesn’t employ the format here, but he does use the 65mm film gauge for select shots.

For an action thriller taking place entirely inside the mind, INCEPTION boasts a staggering, monumental scope consistent with his previous work.  Towards that end, Nolan blends classical and modern camerawork, mixing grandiose crane and helicopter aerial shots with visceral handheld setups and smooth Steadicam runs.

The story also provides ample opportunity to explore varying frame rates, availing Nolan of techniques like speed-ramping and extreme slow motion to better convey the varying speeds of time across parallel tiers of dream space.

A somewhat-neutral stone & steel palette drives the overall color theory behind INCEPTION, but Nolan and Pfister take great pains to establish distinct looks for the various dreamscapes– especially during the climactic sequence, as a means for the audience to better track their orientation across a relentless cascade of cross-cuts and parallel action.

The first tier, in which Yusuf wildly drives a van to evade his pursuers, uses a torrential downpour of rain to justify a foggy, cold look with a heavy cobalt color cast.  The next tier down is the hotel, rendered in a warm amber patina and pools of concentrated light.

Going another level down, a snowy mountainscape topped by a concrete fortress deals in stark monochromatic tones, with little else but the crew’s skin tones to provide color.  Finally, we come to limbo–raw, unstructured dream space where decades can pass in a span of minutes in real time.  Nolan and Pfister use varying shades of gray here, as if to suggest the pure building blocks of the subconscious before we color them in with our experiences and our environment.

Expectedly, a considerable amount of computer-generated imagery is necessary to fully realize limbo, as well as some of the more outlandish visuals the film presents.

However, Nolan stays true to his convictions regarding the supremacy of practical effects, always using an in-camera element as the foundation of the shot and employing digital wizardry only when absolutely necessary.

As such, INCEPTION boasts far fewer digital effects shots than most spectacle epics of its ilk– 500 compared to today’s standard of 2000 plus.

Christopher Nolan goes to great lengths to reinforce his legacy as a visual magician of the highest order– where other filmmakers would simply let computers digitally insert a train ramming through downtown traffic, Nolan drops a physical train onto a real street, rigging it up in the precise manner needed to achieve the shot.

In his pursuit of delivering the impossible through practical effects, he even manages to one-up director Stanley Kubrick by expanding upon the techniques he developed for 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY’s mind-bending space station sequences.

In order to realize a stunning hallway fight sequence in varying degrees of gravity, Nolan builds the entirety of the set on a massive gimbal capable of tilting every conceivable angle while also rotating a full 360 degrees.

By fixing the camera’s perspective to the set and not the actors’, he’s able to create breathtaking images of fighting on ceilings and walls.  This drive to shoot as much in-camera as possible informs Nolan’s overall visual approach, making us believe in the impossible while safeguarding his creation from the inevitable advances in digital effects technology that otherwise might date INCEPTION’s visuals as crude and primitive.

Nolan’s longtime production designer Nathan Crowley is absent here, leaving Guy Hendrix Dyas to act in his stead.  The rest of Nolan’s core team of collaborators remains intact, with returning editor Lee Smith expertly navigating the labyrinthine and intellectually-dense plotting, and composer Hans Zimmer providing yet another instantly-iconic original score.

Zimmer’s innovative, minimalist inclinations would not only score him an Oscar nomination, but would also go on to influence pop culture in surprising ways.  A blend of old and new sounds, the score finds Zimmer recruiting The Smiths’ Johnny Marr to perform a moody electric guitar riff that recalls the midcentury cool of the James Bond films.

This element serves as the base of a larger electronic and orchestral texture, with thundering brass and lush strings that also would not be out of place in a Bond film.  Nolan doesn’t employ needledrops often, so when he does, the audience would do well to pay close attention to its importance to the narrative at hand.

In this regard, Nolan incorporates an Edith Piaf song directly into the storyline, becoming an audio cue that Cobb’s crew employs to sync up their timescales across multiple tiers of dreamscape.

Zimmer takes this idea and runs with it, slowing down the track to the point where it becomes an unrecognizable texture of raw sound and throbbing percussion.  In the process, he achieves what is easily one of INCEPTION’s biggest contributions to pop culture– the brassy “BRAHM” blasts that countless movie trailers have since copied to the point of parody.

A film stuffed to the brim with the themes and imagery that Nolan has spent a lifetime exploring, it’s not inconceivable to see INCEPTION as the director’s most definitive work– even more so than THE DARK KNIGHT, when considering its original storyline, unencumbered by the constraints of any pre-existing intellectual property.

The narrative affords Nolan the opportunity to explore and indulge in his fascination with the mechanics of time in a comprehensive and integral manner– befitting their place in a heist film, Cobb’s crew naturally races against a ticking clock, but they are uniquely positioned to alter the bounds of the race itself.

The relativistic relationship of time across several parallel tiers of the subconscious becomes their ace in the hole.  By venturing deeper into a dream-within-a-dream, into a dream-within-a-dream-within-a-dream, and so on, Cobb’s crew finds that time slows down in proportion to the tier above it.

What passes for a minute of real time would be an hour in tier 1 of the dreamscape, while decades will pass in limbo during that same span.  Likewise, when Saito is shot early on during the heist, he’s able to regain some of his health, his wounds working slower and slower as he descends the various tiers.

INCEPTION’s unique take on the mechanics of time is a singular signature of Nolan’s– only he could stage a twenty-minute action sequence within the time it takes for a van to plunge off a bridge into the water.

The heist format enables Nolan’s further exploration of functional style, evidenced in the slick, well-tailored suits that Cobb’s crew wear throughout the film as a manifestation of their professional attitude.

The constant presence of suits, tactical combat gear, and even tuxedos can’t help but remind one of the James Bond films– no doubt an intentional move on Nolan’s part as a lifelong fan of the series.  Indeed, INCEPTION at times feels like Nolan’s audition for the director’s chair on the Bond franchise, right down to the snow fortress ski chase designed to pay tribute to his favorite 007 film, ON HER MAJESTY’S SECRET SERVICE.

The globetrotting nature of Nolan’s aesthetic, and INCEPTION in particular, reinforces this notion, featuring the characters jetting around to exotic locales like Mombasa, Paris and Tokyo as well as abstract interior spaces like limbo.  Nolan even structures the climactic heist so that it takes place while his characters are flying over the Pacific.

Like THE DARK KNIGHT before it, INCEPTION also draws considerable influence from Michael Mann’s HEAT, in that Nolan stages his own version of that film’s iconic downtown LA shootout– albeit with a degree of restraint that keeps his efforts in service to the story and firmly out of the territory of full-blown homage.

As evidenced by the logo of Nolan’s production company, Syncopy, the iconography of mazes and puzzles have become a defining feature of his artistry– a conceit that INCEPTION revels in with its labyrinthine plot structures that turn the world around its characters into a giant Rubik’s Cube.

Architecture and the malleability of the urban environment plays a big role in this regard, as the characters are empowered via lucid dreaming to actively reshape the environment around them.

This leads to some of the film’s most iconic imagery, such as the scene where Ariadne peels back the horizon as if it were on a hinge, causing whole city blocks to fold over on themselves.  The plane of limbo becomes a veritable playground as the characters build entire cities for themselves, spending decades in an endless sprawl of imposing monoliths that grow more faceless and abstract as they extend outwards.

It is here that architectural styles can clash together, achieving a strange harmony in their impossible pairings.  One need look no further than Dom and Mal’s earthy, craftsman-style home situated high above the city inside a sleek modern tower.  INCEPTION makes brilliant use of this idea of paradoxical architecture, exploring the strategic value of impossible structures like the Penrose stairs, which only become possible from a singular point of view.

No discussion of INCEPTION would be complete without addressing its infamous ending, the implications of which are still hotly debated across internet forums and college dorms.

In a film loaded with symbolic imagery, the closing image of a top spinning on the table– wobbling ever so slightly before abruptly cutting to black– is arguably INCEPTION’s most provoking one.  The audience finds itself left on a sharply ambiguous final note, and an extremely frustrating one for those who prefer their movies to spell everything out for them.  Is Cobb truly free of his dreams, or is he still trapped somewhere in his unconscious?

The question has inspired numerous armchair detectives to suss out an objective truth– most investigations point to Cobb’s wedding ring as his personal totem, and the film’s key signifier as to whether or not we are currently in a dream state.  Cobb sports his ring in the dream sequences, but in his waking reality he appears without it.  When he lands in Los Angeles at the end of the film, he’s not wearing his ring.

This, along with the presence of Michael Caine– who had only appeared previously in a scene ostensibly set in waking reality– should be our chief clue that Cobb has ultimately woken up and joined the objective timeline.  However, even this is a deception– Nolan explicitly states via Arthur that one cannot use another’s totem, for fear of losing touch with reality.  Despite Cobb’s constant use of a spinning top, we know that it is actually Mal’s totem.

This raises the question of whether Cobb has been lost in his own subconscious from the very start.  To Nolan, the question is irrelevant– he’s gone on record to express his sentiment that it’s whether or not the top is going to topple that’s important, but rather, for the first time in the film, Cobb isn’t watching it.  After spending much of the film obsessing over this little spinning top, he has moved on emotionally, finding happiness in his reunion with his family.

Far from a final “gotcha” twist, INCEPTION’s ending arguably hits a precise note, cementing the film’s murky ambiguity between dreams and waking reality while challenging his audience with the notion that our own realities can be just as subjective.
Billed on its release as “the new Matrix”, a staggering $100 million marketing budget endeavored to convey INCEPTION as an explosive head-trip that played fast and loose with the laws of physics.

The number is all the more remarkable considering its release in an era where franchise filmmaking is king– in the absence of any pre-existent intellectual property, Warner Brothers leveraged the success of BATMAN BEGINS and THE DARK KNIGHT to present Nolan himself as the franchise.  The strategy worked beautifully, driving worldwide box office receipts north of $800 million and generating a wave of critical acclaim.

INCEPTION’s top-flight craftsmanship earned itself a small collection of golden statues come Oscar season, with the Academy celebrating the film’s technical innovations in categories like Best Cinematography, Best Sound Editing, Best Sound Mixing, and Best Visual Effects.  If THE DARK KNIGHT established Nolan as one of mainstream American cinema’s most valuable filmmakers, then INCEPTION chiseled it in stone and enshrined it in gold.


DARK KNIGHT RISES (2012)

Despite the record-shattering success of 2008’s THE DARK KNIGHT, the promise of an early retirement-enabling payday and a higher budget than the GDP of most small countries, the prospect of Nolan returning to the world of Batman a third time initially inspired hesitance.  There was no ill will or negative experience fueling his reluctance, but rather, the demons of artistic integrity.

“How many good third movies of a franchise can people name?”, Nolan reportedly asked of himself; indeed, he was all too cognizant of the hard and simple truth that, more often than not, threequels turn out to be the worst entry of a given franchise.  Case in point: THE GODFATHER PART III, or  SPIDER-MAN 3– even RETURN OF THE JEDI was arguably disappointing in relation to the episodes before it.  THE RETURN OF THE KING, Peter Jackson’s third chapter of his LORD OF THE RINGS TRILOGY, seemed the exception to the rule, what with its several Oscar wins including Best Picture.

Even then, THE LORD OF THE RINGS is usually regarded as a single, unified narrative rather than three separate installments.  Simply put, Nolan valued his artistic integrity over a dump truck full of cash, and if he was going to return to Gotham City for a third time, there needed to be a great — and necessary — story to tell.

He kept the opportunity in the back of his mind as he shot INCEPTION, even going so far as sketching out rough outlines as to what a third Batman film might entail.  His initial plan, which would have seen Two-Face become the main villain after The Joker throws acid on his face during his trial, was no longer an option considering Heath Ledger’s death and his earlier decision to fold Two-Face’s villainous arc into the climax of THE DARK KNIGHT.

Once Nolan hit on the idea of using a third film to definitively end his rendition of Batman, the necessary elements that would ensure his return began to come together.

As they had done for their previous Batman films, Nolan and his screenwriting partner and brother, Jonathan, looked for inspiration in classic graphic like KNIGHTFALL, NO MAN’S LAND, and Frank Miller’s THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS.

The brothers also drew from unexpected literary sources like Charles Dickens’ “A Tale of Two Cities”, braiding its themes of violent revolution and massive social upheaval into their massive script– the first draft of which apparently ran four hundred pages long.

Titled THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, the project quickly asserted itself as Nolan’s most ambitious effort to date, with a story containing no less than the fall of modern civilization and the potential death of millions within its staggering scope.

Thankfully, Nolan had a crack team of producers at his disposal– his wife Emma Thomas and Atlas Entertainment’s Charles Roven, both of whom had been invaluable allies in making Nolan’s previous Batman visions possible.

Given that this was as close to a surefire billion-dollar blockbuster one could possibly get, Warner Brothers saw little problem in greenlighting Nolan’s massive epic despite a price tag upwards of $200 million.

Their unwavering faith in Nolan’s ability– a faith that’s practically unheard of in modern commercial filmmaking– gave him the creative freedom and near-unlimited funds he needs to fill in his largest canvas yet while ending his groundbreaking DARK KNIGHT TRILOGY on his own terms.

Escalation has been a key foundational principle in Nolan’s take on Batman.  As the stakes of his crusade have intensified, so too has Nolan expanded the scope of the Dark Knight’s world.

With each successive installment, the narrative scale has ballooned exponentially, so where else can THE DARK KNIGHT RISES go but the uppermost strata of epic spectacle?

Eight years have passed since Harvey Dent fell to his death and Batman took the blame, going into exile to protect Gotham’s citizens from the devastating revelation that their White Knight had been twisted into a murderous psychopath named Two-Face.

In that time, Gotham has entered a period of relative peace and prosperity– a city no longer in need of a vigilante savior.  So too has Bruce Wayne gone into exile, sealing himself away in the newly-rebuilt Wayne Manor like a Howard Hughes-style recluse.

Christian Bale returns for his third and final appearance as Bruce, bearing the signs of significant wear and tear as he hobbles around on a cane throughout his mausoleum of a mansion.

Without Batman, he’s a sad, lonely figure– a man without a purpose, and after the death of his beloved Rachel Dawes, a man with very little left to live for.  He’s finally shaken from his long stupor when a prized personal memento — his mother’s pearl necklace — is stolen by a crafty cat burglar posing as a caterer during a gathering for the anniversary of Harvey Dent’s death and the passing of sweeping anti-crime legislation in his name.

This development coincides with a number of others simultaneously swirling around Gotham, like clouds gathering for a massive storm that will make Bruce’s return as the Caped Crusader not only inevitable, but necessary.

Indeed, Christopher Nolan has many masters to serve in THE DARK KNIGHT RISES– not only does he have to cook up compelling narrative arcs for a suite of new characters; he has to service lingering threads from the previous two installments while bringing everything to a satisfying close.

As a result, THE DARK KNIGHT RISES clocks in at a truly monumental two hours and 45 minutes long– every second being essential to the advancement of Nolan’s narrative.  Naturally, there’s a lot of story to cover, and Nolan doesn’t have the luxury of dwelling on huge developments.

The startling revelations and showstopping sequences come so fast and furious that the audience must race just to catch their breath, but that is the magnitude of scale that, unwittingly or not, Nolan has set up for himself.  Indeed, nothing less than the threat of Gotham City’s full-stop annihilation will satisfy Nolan’s narrative and thematic requirements.

This necessary existential threat is embodied in the figure of Bane, an ideological zealot excommunicated from The League of Shadows (previously embodied in Liam Neeson’s Ra’s Al Ghul in BATMAN BEGINS).

A relatively new figure in Batman’s rogue gallery, Bane became a high-profile villain instantly upon his comic book debut in the early 1990’s by breaking Batman’s back and putting him out of commission for several years.

The character had made a filmic appearance before, in Joel Schumacher’s disastrous 1997 film, BATMAN & ROBIN, but the filmmakers had stripped him entirely of his formidable intellect and reduced him to a one-note, brutish henchman of Uma Thurman’s Poison Ivy.

He had been so badly mishandled that the revelation of his inclusion in THE DARK KNIGHT RISES was initially met with profound skepticism by fans, if not outright derision.  However, Nolan’s choice of villain had always been informed by the story’s key ideas and formative themes first– he reportedly rejected early pressure from Warner Brothers to cast Leonardo DiCaprio as The Riddler, refusing to build his narrative around a predetermined villain.

THE DARK KNIGHT RISES required an adversary who could match Batman on both the physical and mental level, and Bane — at least in his comic-book incarnation — fit the mold.

Like The Scarecrow or The Joker before him, Nolan’s rendition of Bane is informed by a grounded reality that ditches his usual mutant-luchador aesthetic in favor of a militaristic, revolutionary edge complete with a monstrous mask that delivers san analgesic gas to quell crippling chronic pain from a prior injury.

He arrives in Gotham to finish Ra’s Al Ghul’s mission to annihilate the city, although his strategy — to cut Gotham off from the outside world and use the threat of a nuclear bomb to turn the city’s economic classes against each other — is decidedly more sadistic than his predecessor’s.

He plans to nuke the city anyway, but first he wants to systematically break down the people’s confidence in their own civilization while figures like Batman and Commissioner Gordon are forced to helplessly watch their beloved city tear itself apart.

Tom Hardy, one of three cast members to make the jump from INCEPTION to Nolan’s Batman saga, reportedly gained thirty pounds for the role, transforming himself into a hulking brute with a brilliant, tactically-oriented intelligence.

Hardy faced a considerable challenge in playing Bane, considering the cumbersome mask that covers half his face– all that intellect and unhinged megalomania had to be conveyed entirely with his eyes.

As such, Hardy infuses Bane’s eyes with the quiet intensity of conviction, his piercing stare commanding his small army of mercenaries like a brutish cult leader.  One of the more peculiar aspects of Hardy’s performance is the particular voice he uses, affecting a high-pitched musicality inspired by the voice of Bartley Gorman, a Romani gypsy and Irish bare-knuckle boxing champion.

The choice, while unnervingly effective, wasn’t without controversy– audiences in early screenings of the film’s opening prologue complained they couldn’t understand Bane’s dialogue at all.  The final product alleviated those concerns, thankfully, allowing the full power of Hardy’s showstopping performance to shine through and achieve a pop culture infamy similar to the type enjoyed by Heath Ledger and his interpretation of The Joker.

Nolan also brings back INCEPTION’s Marion Cotillard, who plays a new character named Miranda Tate.  An enchanting member of Wayne Enterprises’ Board of Directors, Miranda is initially positioned as Bruce Wayne’s best hope for the continued operation of his profit-draining fusion energy program.  Cotillard brings her signature elegance to the role, presenting herself as a potential love interest for Bruce who can help soothe the lingering pain of Rachel Dawes’ death.

However, Miranda has other plans in store– namely, using Bruce’s trust and her corporate credentials to gain access to a nuclear fusion reactor underneath the city.  At the risk of spoiling one of the film’s biggest twists, Miranda eventually asserts herself not only as the true mastermind behind Bane’s evil plan, but also as a key figure that links THE DARK KNIGHT RISES directly to BATMAN BEGINS.

With only so much screen-time left to realize the vast universe of Batman characters and plot lines, Nolan risks painting a picture that feels, at best, incomplete. His grounded interpretation of the property naturally would exclude some of Batman’s more fanciful villains like The Penguin, Killer Croc, or Clayface, but there are some characters that are so iconic that any version of the Caped Crusader would feel lacking in their absence.

Thankfully, Nolan is able to smuggle in two more just under the wire, albeit radically reimagined from their comic book counterparts.  The character of Catwoman is integral to Batman’s universe, but is admittedly too theatrical for Nolan’s take on the property.

He strikes a satisfying middle ground in casting Anne Hathaway as Selina Kyle, downplaying the slinky cat burglar’s feline affectations to the point where the name “Catwoman” is never even uttered.

Instead, Nolan and Hathaway rely on the character’s duplicitous mystique to convey her comic book heritage (in addition to subtle visual cues like a pair of night vision goggles that resemble cat ears when flipped up on top of her head).

Drawing from the classic femme fatale archetype, Hathaway further honors Catwoman’s origins by basing her performance on the Hollywood Golden Age starlet Hedy Lemarr, the original inspiration for Catwoman in the comics.

THE DARK KNIGHT RISES finds Selina Kyle attempting to obtain a secret device that will erase her criminal history and allow her to start over with a clean slate– a path that conveniently crosses Batman’s while communicating her murky moral compass.  Additionally, her self-aware cynicism allows Nolan to infuse an otherwise somber and bleak storyline with crowd pleasing moments of natural levity.

The other iconic character whose absence would make for an incomplete depiction of the Batman universe is his sidekick, Robin.  It’s admittedly difficult to imagine how the plucky Boy Wonder would fit into Nolan’s grim and grounded approach– indeed, Bale has gone on record to say that he would leave the franchise if Nolan ever brought Robin into the storyline.

With the inclusion of INCEPTION’s Joseph Gordon Levitt as a driven young cop named John Blake, Nolan gets to have his cake and eat it too.  The fresh-faced rookie doesn’t just share Batman’s burning passion for justice– he also feels a direct kinship with him, having also grown up as an orphan and felt the need to hide his emotions behind a figurative mask.  Indeed, it is this quality that allows him to deduce Batman’s secret identity when no else can.

While he doesn’t become Batman’s sidekick in the traditional sense, Blake’s tireless ambition nevertheless positions him both as a crucial ally in the quest to take back Gotham from Bane’s vice grip as well as an ideal successor to the Batman mantle itself– playing beautifully into Nolan’s vision of Batman as an incorruptible symbol beyond the reach of death or decay.

Nolan throws a brief nod to Robin’s place in the annals of Batman lore by revealing Blake’s real name to actually be “Robin”, thus bringing all of the character’s thematic and functional qualities to his vision of Batman while dropping the sillier, distracting elements.

Nolan’s sprawling supporting ensemble is marked by faces both familiar and new, with the one consistent quality among them being an impeccable pedigree.  Michael Caine, Gary Oldman, and Morgan Freeman all return as Bruce’s triptych of mentors, allies and father figures– their own respective arcs reaching their logical ends in a satisfying manner.

Caine’s reprisal of Bruce’s trusty butler, Alfred, finds an unexpected degree of emotionality, having reached a breaking point in his relationship with Bruce where he can no longer abide his reckless risks.  He regrets indulging his master’s whims, fearing he’s created a monster while betraying his sworn duty to Bruce’s parents.

Oldman’s third turn as Commissioner Gordon sees his character on the verge of retirement– a war hero rendered useless and irrelevant by a prolonged peace.  He too is disillusioned and burdened, deeply ashamed of his role in the cover-up of Harvey Dent’s death and the lies he has perpetuated since.

The events of THE DARK KNIGHT RISES gives Gordon one last chance at redemption, enlisting him to serve his beloved Gotham City as he never has before.  Freeman, as the usually-jovial head of Wayne Enterprises, Lucius Fox, also finds that his association with Batman has dug him into a deep hole, forced by Bane to pervert a miraculous nuclear fusion device into a devastating atom bomb that will decimate the city.

Nestor Carbonnel returns as Gotham’s mayor, Anthony Garcia, and although he doesn’t have much in the way of a compelling character arc, he nevertheless serves as a vital embodiment of civilized law & order– everything that Gotham has to lose when Bane takes the field.

Two major characters from BATMAN BEGINS also make fleeting appearances in THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, helping to tie Nolan’s trilogy together into a unified whole.

Cillian Murphy returns as Dr Jonathan Crane — better known as The Scarecrow– and while he doesn’t don his signature mask here, he does find a suitable role for himself in Bane’s new world order as the merciless judge of a kangaroo court, gleefully sentencing his enemies to an icy grave.

Ra’s Al Ghul also appears in two iterations: one being Liam Neeson in a brief cameo as Bruce’s hallucination in the pit, and the other being Josh Pence as the younger Ra’s in a revelatory flashback sequence.

Finally, a handful of faces unfamiliar to Nolan’s Batman series portray notable new characters.  Matthew Modine, best known for his leading role in Stanley Kubrick’s FULL METAL JACKET, plays Foley– a petty, vindictive police officer positioned to take the reins from Gordon.  He manages to just barely fit in a compelling arc within THE DARK KNIGHT RISES’ sprawling narrative, ultimately finding the courage and conviction within himself to join the fray against Bane’s forces of destruction.

Australian character actor Ben Mendelsohn plays Daggett, a smug billionaire and a petulant business rival who thinks he can use Bane for a hostile takeover of Wayne Enterprises, only to find that Bane serves no one unless it also serves himself.  Finally, Juno Temple plays Jen, a low-level thief and Selina’s partner in crime.

From a thematic standpoint, THE DARK KNIGHT RISES must contend with the un-enviably tricky balancing act of fashioning a narrative that resonates with distinct, clear-cut themes within the confines of its running time, while also paying off the themes set up in the previous two installments.

BATMAN BEGINS dealt with the concept of fear, while THE DARK KNIGHT focused on the idea of chaos.  THE DARK KNIGHT RISES’ primary theme is pain– embodied not just in Bane’s brutal methods, but also in Bruce’s quest to overcome his own pain and complete his life’s work as Batman.

Up until this point, Bruce’s pain had been mostly internal– anguishing over the deaths of his parents and Rachel Dawes.  Throughout the trilogy, Nolan has taken great care to show the physical toll that the life of a vigilante takes on Bruce’s body.  Indeed, the success of Nolan’s entire take on the Batman universe rests on the fact that Batman is not a superhero; that he’s flesh and blood like the rest of us.

THE DARK KNIGHT shows bruises and scars pockmarking his body, while THE DARK KNIGHT RISES establishes that Bruce’s knee has basically been destroyed, necessitating the use of a cane.  Bane simply finishes the job, breaking Batman’s back and throwing him down into a pit halfway across the world.  Pain defines the limits of Bruce’s physicality, with each successive installment in the trilogy finding those limits constricting ever-tighter.  In order to meet the extraordinary challenge of Bane, Bruce must fight through his pain and rise above his physical limits.

In this light, ascension also becomes a defining theme of the story– Bruce’s internal quest is externalized by his attempts to climb out of a pit that had only been previously conquered by Bane himself.

An ascent naturally implies a lower starting point, and Bane’s own rise to power begins in Gotham’s labyrinthine sewer system– the perfect vantage point from which to observe the deep social divisions that roil beneath the fabric of the city.  Even with a team of crack mercenaries at his disposal, Bane knows he doesn’t have the manpower to mount a successful siege against the whole of Gotham.

Instead, he turns the population into his unwitting agents by inciting class conflict between the have and the have nots.  He encourages the Gotham rabble to lay siege to the penthouses of the wealthy elite, as righteous punishment for their greed and gluttony.  He also advocates open anarchy, prompting the citizens to liberate criminals unjustly imprisoned by sweeping legislation passed in the wake of Harvey Dent’s death.
Indeed, he does away with conventional justice systems entirely, instituting kangaroo courts that make a mockery of due process in a bid to quickly condemn his enemies to death.

THE DARK KNIGHT RISES paints a vivid– and perhaps extreme– picture of what modern life might look like following the violent overthrow of society;  a picture that resonated far more than Nolan could have enter anticipated, considering the film’s release during the height of the Occupy Wall Street movement.

In provoking the simmering resentment between the various economic classes of society, Bane is able to expose the fragility of the institutions that keep us from the brink of madness.  THE DARK KNIGHT was released a few months prior to the bottom falling out of the economy at the start of the Great Recession, which sparked a widespread conflagration pitting the poor, working and middle-class population against the wealthy elite class.

In drawing inspiration from this conflict, THE DARK KNIGHT RISES becomes something of a cathartic experience for those hit hardest by the recession.  Nolan allows audiences to revel in sequences like Bane’s stock exchange heist and images of wealthy Gothamites being forcibly pulled from their penthouses and thrown out onto the street.

This plot point also makes for compelling character development on the part of billionaire Bruce Wayne, whose ability to maintain his superheroic exploits has always rested in his immense wealth.

THE DARK KNIGHT RISES finds Bruce stripped of that wealth, forced to save Gotham with whatever meager resources  remain at his disposal– only at this point is Bruce able to ascend to the realm of the “superhero”,  transcending the limits of his mortal physicality and securing the legacy of Batman as an incorruptible and enduring symbol.

As the conclusive chapter of the trilogy, THE DARK KNIGHT RISES also uses its thematic foundation to connect directly with BATMAN BEGINS.

The first film painted Gotham as a dark, filthy, and crime-ridden city where the police force was universally corrupt– an environment primed for a solitary vigilante intent on taking justice into his own hands.  THE DARK KNIGHT RISES comes full circle, with Batman’s efforts having inspired the police to clean up their city and act out en masse against the tyranny of evil.

It’s noteworthy that Batman — a character often depicted as operating only at night and in the shadows — faces Bane for a final standoff in the bright light of day.  The various forces that have been swirling around Gotham all these years are finally out in the open, fighting with the crystal clarity of conviction and purpose.

Batman finally fights side by side with his comrades in blue, united in their effort to pull Gotham back from the brink.  Nolan had taken great care with his previous Batman films to flesh out the urban tapestry of Gotham via its various infrastructural systems– the villains of BATMAN BEGINS repurposed water and transportation systems towards their own ends, and Batman harnessed the power of communications systems in his fight against The Joker in THE DARK KNIGHT.

When combined with Bane’s utilization of underground sewer systems as a hidden staging ground and his perversion of a fusion-based energy system into an atomic bomb, we as an audience stand to know exactly what Batman and the citizens of Gotham are fighting for.

THE DARK KNIGHT RISES furthers Nolan’s exploration of IMAX in the narrative realm, shooting in the format as much as possible.

Emboldened by the substantial punch it gave THE DARK KNIGHT, Nolan and returning cinematographer Wally Pfister employ IMAX frequently– essentially, any shot that doesn’t require dialogue due to the operating noise of the camera itself.

That being said, the filmmakers are well aware of the format’s visceral impact and are careful not to dilute it, carefully staging full action sequences and select shots in order to play to IMAX’s strength as an immersive experience. As it did on THE DARK KNIGHT, this makes for a viewing experience that frequently switches between the full IMAX frame and the standard 2.35:1 35mm film frame– many times from shot to shot.

THE DARK KNIGHT RISES would be, at least as of 2017, the last collaboration between Nolan and his longtime cinematographer, with Pfister graduating to the director’s chair himself in 2014 with his debut, TRANSCENDENCE.

This final collaboration finds Nolan and Pfister building upon the aesthetic they developed for THE DARK KNIGHT, adopting a neutral, desaturated color palette dominated by steel and stone tones.

With the trilogy now complete, it becomes evident that the filmmakers have fashioned a transitory lighting scheme that gradually moves from the darkness of BATMAN BEGINS to the snow-capped brightness of day in THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, echoing Batman’s deliverance of Gotham from moral decay to virtuous law & order.

So too has Nolan’s scope expanded appropriately, ballooning to stakes that are nothing less than apocalyptic as Bane mounts his revolutionary siege on an entire city.

Nolan’s camerawork ably conveys the sweeping scale of his narrative, employing a mix of classical dolly and crane moves with handheld maneuvers and majestic aerials to capture stunning images like the movement of huge crowds doing battle in the streets, or a series of coordinated explosions detonating across the city.

As we’ve come to expect by now, Nolan captures most of these astonishing visuals in-camera via practical effects, supplementing with CGI only when absolutely necessary.  The plane hijacking sequence that opens the film serves as a prime example, with Nolan and company painstakingly staging an high-altitude heist over the Scottish countryside.

Visually speaking, THE DARK KNIGHT RISES represents the aesthetic apex of Nolan’s particular style– since his lo-fi debut with 1998’s FOLLOWING, he has steadily built upon his visual skill set and developed his ability to realize epic spectacle while managing the intimidating logistics that such efforts entail.

While critics may argue over the logical integrity of an admittedly overstuffed narrative, the excellence of Nolan’s technical craftsmanship is never in question. Returning production designer Nathan Crowley marks his seventh consecutive collaboration with Nolan by partnering with Kevin Kavanaugh.

The art department maintains aesthetic continuity with the previous two entries while subtly building upon them, giving a slight update to THE DARK KNIGHT’s iteration of Wayne Tower and the corporation’s cavernous R&D department.

Crowley and Kavanaugh update other iconic aspects of Batman lore like Wayne Manor and The Batcave, giving each a fresh appearance that feels nonetheless similar to how they looked in BATMAN BEGINS.  For instance, Wayne Manor retains its familiar Gilded Age architectural flourishes while expanding upon the mausoleum concept from BATMAN BEGINS.

In the first film, the idea of Wayne Manor being in a constant state of mourning was communicated chiefly by the white sheets draped over the furniture.  With THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, the lack of color has seeped into the walls themselves, as if happiness and passion have left Wayne Manor entirely.

Indeed, the appearance of Wayne Manor is a manifestation of Bruce’s initial interior state, which is one of aimless despair and endless sorrow.  The Batcave has been upgraded to include a computer platform that rises up from its hiding spot underneath a natural pool of water.

No doubt installed shortly after the events of THE DARK KNIGHT, it’s evident that this equipment hasn’t been used in several years.  Crowley and Kavanaugh’s fresh-but-familiar approach extends to Batman’s fleet of vehicles, which now includes a revisionist take on the classic Batplane that transmogrifies its usual sleek silhouette into that a steroid-addled bat crossed with a military helicopter.

Ever true to form, Nolan chiefly uses CGI to augment what is predominantly a practical effect– production footage reveals the Batpod to be a full-size anchored atop a truck that would later be digitally scrubbed from the shot.  The filmmakers had even built an animatronic Batman to sit in the cockpit, giving their illusion that much more of a tactile believability.

The Batpod from THE DARK KNIGHT makes an encore appearance, becoming Batman’s vehicle of choice after the Tumblr was destroyed in the previous installment.  Indeed, THE DARK KNIGHT RISES is the first Batman film in which his signature Batmobile is absent entirely, save for the desert camo R&D models owned by Wayne Enterprises and later stolen by Bane’s mercenaries.

The appearance of Gotham City also evolves, with Nolan’s vision of the fictional city changing rather radically from the one that drove its design in the previous two films.

The influence of Chicago, so deeply felt in the bones of BATMAN BEGINS and THE DARK KNIGHT, here gives way to the iconic spires of New York City.  Since the conclusion of BATMAN BEGINS, Nolan has been steadily chipping away at the layers of stylistic artifice he’d initially imposed on Gotham.

THE DARK KNIGHT  RISES envisions an entirely new Gotham– one that drapes a thin veil of fiction over famous Manhattan landmarks like Wall Street, the Brooklyn Bridge, and 1 World Trade Center (then still under construction).

This particular rendition of Gotham also incorporates sections of other cities like Los Angeles and Pittsburgh, which editor Lee Smith seamlessly cuts together to form one cohesive urban environment.  In addition to other key sequences, the concrete arteries of LA’s downtown host the concluding beat of Bane’s Wall Street heist– which, thanks to the magic of editing, began 3000 miles away in New York.  Here, LA’s multi-level network of highways provides Batman a convenient escape route when he’s cornered by an armada of police cruisers.

The urban interior of Pittsburgh is the stage for the film’s climactic battle, while Heinz Field doubles as the home stadium for the Gotham Rogues football team before it becomes the unwitting site for Bane’s explosive debut.

When blessed with a virtually-bottomless production budget, one might wonder why Nolan and company saw fit to disguise their locales as the fictional city of Gotham by simply spraying a little fake snow on the streets and calling it a day.

However, those who might feel disappointed or even cheated by their perceived lack of imagination fail to realize that this was Nolan’s endgame all along.  As far back as his initial pitch to Warner Brothers executives, Nolan’s take on Batman was always built upon the notion of the character existing in reality.

Rather than build an elaborate, fantastical world to draw the audience into, he means to draw Batman into our world.  THE DARK KNIGHT RISES achieves this aim once and for all, juxtaposing the Caped Crusader against a landscape we can very much recognize as our own.

In regards to the film’s score, one could be forgiven for expecting the composing team of Hans Zimmer and James Newton Howard to finish what they started with BATMAN BEGINS.  However, after Nolan paired with Zimmer exclusively on INCEPTION, Howard reportedly felt he would be a third wheel, and decided to bow out.

While this act arguably streamlines the score’s creative process, Howard’s absence is palpable– gone are the romantic swells of strings that find Batman or Bruce in a quiet moment of introspection, depriving the score of a crucial emotional resonance.

This isn’t to say Zimmer fails to deliver of his own accord, however– the dynamic of the score simply shifts to favor the militaristic and intense nature of his prior contributions.

He appropriately builds on the themes established in the previous entries, developing them towards their logical conclusions.  Naturally, new characters mean new themes, and Zimmer once again manages to embody the characters of Bane and Selina Kyle in musical form.

Expectedly muscular and percussive, Bane’s theme immediately communicates an overwhelming sense of strength and power, his background in the League of Shadows and his apocalyptic ambitions conveyed through a hypnotic male chorus chanting the Moroccan word for “rise”.

Selina Kyle gets a slinky, playful theme that echoes her comic book heritage as Catwoman, employing light flutters on a piano bolstered by quietly urgent strings.  While not as well-rounded as the scores for BATMAN BEGINS or THE DARK KNIGHT, Zimmer’s efforts here nevertheless close out Nolan’s trilogy on an epic, triumphant note.

Nolan’s artistic signatures as a filmmaker are on full display throughout THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, from its massive scope to its jet-setting narrative that takes his crew to far-flung locales like Morocco or Scotland.

His take on Bruce Wayne and Batman has always been informed by his penchant for extremely-flawed male protagonists.  The character’s development as seen in THE DARK KNIGHT RISES continues the trajectory Nolan established with BATMAN BEGINS, all the while uncovering new angles of his psyche.

We first find Bruce so disheartened by the loss of Rachel Dawes and Harvey Dent that he’s exiled himself and Batman away from the world for almost a decade.  He’s lost heart in the myth that he spent so much time, energy, and money building up.

When he decides to once again put on the cape and cowl, his regaining of his life’s purpose ironically makes him too proud.

His conviction about the righteousness of his mission has been warped to such a degree that he drives Alfred, his closest ally and friend, away from him entirely.  This also leads to his merciless beating at the hands of Bane, having failed to do his homework on his opponent beforehand.

Bruce’s story in THE DARK KNIGHT RISES is one of re-earning the mantle of Batman, of gaining a renewed conviction for justice that will enable him to finally fulfill his lifelong quest.

The conceit of functional style that runs through Nolan’s filmography maintains its presence here through Batman’s iconic suit, in addition to other aspects like Bane’s militaristic garb and mask, Selina Kyle’s jet-black burglar outfit, and even a wearable device that allows Bruce to regain the power lost to destroyed cartilage in his knee.

The plot affords Nolan ample opportunity to explore his fascination with architecture and the malleability of the urban environment, with Bane exploiting the inherent vulnerabilities of Gotham’s civic infrastructure.

The underground sewer system allows him to move throughout the city undetected while staging his massive operation.  This position allows him to penetrate fortified structures like Wayne Enterprises’  R&D department by tunneling up from below.

The strategic placement of explosives on bridges and other key points throughout the city allow him to effectively shut down Gotham in one fell swoop, cutting it off from the outside world and effectively creating his very own kingdom to rule as he sees fit.

THE DARK KNIGHT RISES isn’t as concerned with the manipulation of time as his previous work, opting for a linear narrative that progresses steadily forward– save for a massive time jump in the middle that sees several months pass under Bane’s occupation.

More so than he did in THE DARK KNIGHT before it, Nolan structures his climax around a literal ticking clock: that time-honored movie trope of a bomb counting down to detonation. Considering the inspired turns of story that drove Nolan’s previous two Batman entries, it isn’t difficult to see why some critics felt let down by his use of an admittedly-cliche narrative device.

That being said, the ticking clock nonetheless provides a propulsive framework for Nolan to employ his signature cross-cutting techniques, nimbly tracking multiple threads of action and character as they race to save or destroy Gotham.

A purist attitude towards the supremacy of celluloid film over digital acquisition has always been a crucial aspect of Nolan’s artistic character, but his reputation for active advocacy really begins here, with THE DARK KNIGHT RISES.

Thanks to the monumental success of films like THE DARK KNIGHT and INCEPTION, he had enough industry clout to gather a number of high-profile directors like himself for a private IMAX screening of the film’s plane hijacking prologue shortly before this film’s release.

With some of Hollywood’s most-celebrated luminaries as his captive audience, he proceeded to make his case about the importance of keeping celluloid alive as a vital option for filmmakers to employ.  In this bold new digital age, film has taken on an inherently nostalgic quality– one that’s easy to romanticize, or take for granted.

Nolan used his platform to underscore the dangers that digital poses towards the continuance of celluloid, the least of which being its appeal to the studio’s bottom line.

Digital may now have the capability to match (and even surpass) the resolution of film pixel-for-pixel, he argued, but there’s a lot that digital couldn’t replicate and that they thus stood to lose– qualities like a wide latitude, an organic texture, and its strength as a long-term archival format immune to the ravages of memory rot and data corruption.

In the wake of major manufacturers like Fuji closing their doors and leaving Kodak as the only game in town, they faced the imminent risk of losing the choice to shoot on film altogether.  Thankfully, his pleas didn’t fall on deaf ears; his colleagues and contemporaries agreed that the preservation of celluloid as an acquisition option was of urgent artistic and cultural importance.

This alliance proved instantly formidable, with their efforts leading to several studios agreeing to a processing partnership with Kodak that would guarantee film’s immediate survival.  Of all of Nolan’s contributions to the art of cinema, his active advocacy to preserve the availability and the magic of photochemical film for future generations stands to become one of his most important and enduring.

Thanks to the bar set by THE DARK KNIGHT and the passing of four years when most sequels aim for two, expectations were understandably sky-high for Nolan’s trilogy capper.  It was, simply put, the most anticipated film of 2012.

It’s box office dominance was a foregone conclusion, with the marketing campaign aptly positioning the film as a major cultural event that was not to be missed.  The moviegoing public responded in kind, the most dedicated of whom turned out en masse across the country for midnight screenings on release day: July 20, 2012.

The overwhelming excitement of the film’s release was immediately tempered by tragedy, however, when a young man named James Holmes dressed up, in his words, as The Joker and opened fire on an audience at a midnight screening in Aurora, Colorado.

Twelve people lost their lives, with fifty-eight more injured.  Nolan and his collaborators immediately issued statements about the massacre, expressing their profound heartbreak.  This unfortunate brush with history no doubt must have deeply affected Nolan– to him, the movie theater was a sacred space, akin to a cathedral.  It was a forum where people could gather and share a communal dream-like experience, and once that bubble had been popped, it was like innocence lost– there was no going back.

Whatever the purpose might have been, Holmes’ barbaric act couldn’t keep audiences away– perhaps inspiring some to go to the theater as an act of righteous defiance against fear and terrorism.

This defiance, coupled with the overwhelming popularity of the Batman property, quickly propelled THE DARK KNIGHT RISES past the billion dollar mark to become the 19th highest-grossing film of all time.  Critics admired the film for the most part, lavishing praise on Nolan’s technical craftsmanship and command of vision while conceding that the narrative was overlong and rather unwieldy.

Individual criticisms aside, critics and audiences alike mostly agreed that Nolan had closed out his trilogy in satisfying fashion. Nobody, however, could deny the impressiveness of his achievement: not only had he shepherded one of the most successful and well-regarded trilogies of all time, he had capably (and seemingly effortlessly) executed THE DARK KNIGHT RISES on the largest and most challenging scale of mainstream studio filmmaking.

In completing THE DARK KNIGHT TRILOGY, Nolan had formed the bedrock of his cinematic legacy, and a solid platform upon which to build his towering works to come.


INTERSTELLAR (2014)

Mankind is a race of explorers– from the governmental level on down to the individual family unit, we’re constantly pursuing the expansion of our domain into uncharted territory.

The fundamental desire that drove us across entire continents and oceans has also given birth to the tribal mind-set of nation-states, drawing up arbitrary borders in a bid to separate ourselves and our natural blessings from the nebulous “other”.  It wasn’t until the dawn of space flight in the mid-twentieth century that mankind was able to ascend high enough to observe the entire planet within their field of view.

Up there, they realized that there were no borders, no nations, no distinct divisions of heritages and cultures— there was only, to paraphrase Carl Sagan, a single blue marble suspended in a black void.  The planet Earth is a lifeboat in the middle of a vast, turbulent ocean… completely at the mercy to the fickle whims of the fates.

It is hard for those of us stuck here on terra firma to grasp just how precarious our cosmic existence is.  Thanks to our relatively short lifespans, we are cursed with abysmal foresight– we don’t worry about tomorrow because there’s already too much to deal with today.  But what if there was no tomorrow?

What if the mounting effects of industrialization and civic “progress” had turned our fragile blue marble into a dusty wasteland of blight, drought, and decay?  What if we had to find out the hard way that, unlike our fancy electronic gadgets, there was no cloud backup for humanity?

“Mankind was born on Earth.  It was never meant to die here”.  This phrase, while admittedly devised as an unusually-eloquent bit of marketing tagline copy, is the fundamental sentiment that drives Nolan’s ninth feature film, INTERSTELLAR.  The film dares to show The Last Frontier as it really is: an experience beyond the limits of our wildest imaginations.

While INTERSTELLAR’s heritage harkens back to the tactile innovations of Stanley Kubrick’s 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY (1968), its actual development history began much more recently, when theoretical physicist Kip Thorne and producer Lynda Obst hatched the initial seed of the story and set it up for further development at Paramount.  In 2006, the studio hired Jonathan Nolan to write the script as a directing vehicle for Steven Spielberg.

Six years later, Spielberg had departed the project for greener pastures and Christopher was in search of his next film after wrapping up his DARK KNIGHT TRILOGY.  He was intimately familiar with Jonathan’s aspirations for and frustrations with INTERSTELLAR by virtue of his familial relation, but over time he found that he too had become interested in the project from a directorial standpoint.  When he learned the director’s chair was open, he simply placed a call to Paramount and offered his services.

Having made all his previous studio features at Warner Brothers, Nolan had forged warm relationships with the top executives there.  Unwilling to miss out on the next project from one of their most valuable talents, Warner Brothers took the unorthodox step of co-financing INTERSTELLAR with Paramount.

As such, two of the largest studios in Hollywood threw their combined weight behind Nolan to the tune of $175 million dollars– an astronomical sum considering that Nolan also enjoyed a $20 million salary, a 20% profit share of the film’s gross and carte blanche control over the execution of his vision.

That kind of creative freedom– nearly unheard of at this budgetary level– was a testament to the faith that studio executives had in the significant commercial appeal of Nolan’s aesthetic. The fact that Christopher Nolan ultimately brought the picture in $10 million under budget is, conversely, a testament to Nolan’s disciplined work ethic and goodwill towards his financiers.

INTERSTELLAR finds Nolan working with the largest canvas he’s ever had, which is pretty damn big considering the overwhelming scale of THE DARK KNIGHT RISES.  Funnily enough, Nolan’s first foray into science fiction succeeds almost in spite of its limitless scope, finding its profound emotional resonance in the simple, intimate theatrics of human connection.

Drawing from iconic sci-fi works like the aforementioned 2001, METROPOLIS, BLADE RUNNER, STAR WARS, and CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND as well as offbeat sources like Ken Burns’ documentaries on the Dust Bowl, Nolan infuses INTERSTELLAR with a Spielbergian wonder towards the mysteries of the cosmos.

Indeed, Nolan strives to evoke the artistic sensibilities of Spielberg by structuring INTERSTELLAR as an ode to spaceflight, a paean to the romanticism of adventure, and a portrait of the special and complex bond shared between a father and his children.  If THE DARK KNIGHT RISES heralded the end of the world with a bang, then INTERSTELLAR sees it arrive with a whimper.

The world, simply put, must be saved– but this time, the responsibility falls not to superheroes but to scientists and mathematicians.  We begin in the back half of the twenty-first century, where the mounting effects of  pollution, industrialization, and other byproducts of modern civilization have ravaged the earth.

Crops are failing, water is growing scarce, society is stagnating. A desperate and hungry world has discouraged frivolous pursuits like space exploration in favor of raising more farmers to till the increasingly-infertile fields.

Short-sighted bureaucrats have even gone so far as to formally disband NASA and publish textbooks that assert the moon landing was faked in order to bankrupt the Soviet Union and win the Cold War.  There’s a pervading sense that our future is decidedly earthbound.

In America’s blight-plagued heartland, where a new Dust Bowl rages with increasing intensity, an ex-pilot turned corn farmer named Cooper is trying to eke out a hardscrabble existence with his two children and father-in-law.

When Cooper examines the curious phenomena of patterned dust in his daughter’s bedroom, he manages to decode it as geographical coordinates.  Cooper and his daughter, Murph, follow the coordinates to a secret underground bunker, only to discover a secret refuge for the remnants of NASA– an underground facility in which to build the next generation of starships and ferry mankind off the dying planet.  The mission has been spurned on by the discovery of a wormhole near Saturn, placed there by an unknown intelligence.

Almost overnight, an entirely new galaxy has been placed within their reach– complete with three potentially habitable planets orbiting a supermassive black hole named Gargantua.

One of the few pilots qualified to lead a mission of this importance, Cooper is duty-bound to leave his family behind and command an interstellar reconnaissance mission to find a new home for the human race– before we lose the only one we’ve ever known.

The consistent pedigree of Nolan’s work naturally attracts (and retains) high-caliber talent, and INTERSTELLAR serves as yet another prime example.  It’s tempting to assume that the casting of Matthew McConaughey as Cooper was a reactive action on Nolan’s part– jumping on the “McConnaissance” bandwagon and securing the talents of a performer operating at the peak of his prestige.

If the study of Nolan’s filmography yields only one insight, however, it’s that any artistic choice he makes is never a reaction to current trends in filmmaking or Hollywood at large.  Indeed, he’d been aware of McConaughey’s flinty, blue-collar physicality for quite some time– over the years he’s proved himself to be one of the few actors capably of truly embodying the “everyman” persona Nolan felt was so crucial to the proper conveyance of his protagonist.

McConaughey succeeds Guy Pearce, Al Pacino, Christian Bale and Leonardo DiCaprio as the latest in a long line of tortured and haunted male heroes within Nolan’s work.  Cooper’s story so far has been one of quiet tragedy; he’s a former pilot who had to give up dreams of spaceflight for an unglamorous life growing a failing crop and raising a family doomed to do the same.

Like MEMENTO’S Guy Pearce, INCEPTION’s DiCaprio, and, to a certain extent, Christian Bale’s Bruce Wayne, Cooper is a widower; cursed to wander the rest of his life without his mate.  Also like those characters, he’s whip-smart and resourceful; a natural-born leader with bottomless reserves of courage and a ferocious commitment to his family.

The loss of his wife in and of itself does not make Cooper a tortured protagonist in the typical Nolan mold, however– it’s the fact that he must leave his beloved family behind if he’s to save them, along with the very real possibility that he may never see them again.
As Cooper’s absence stretches from months, to years, to decades, his children grow into disillusioned, bitter adults.

They’re angry at the father who abandoned them, the most vindictive sibling being Murph– ripped from her father’s warmth and guidance at a fragile young age.  Jessica Chastain continues her winning streak of strong performances for prestigious directors here as the adult Murph, a brilliant and driven scientist working for NASA.

Her insightful ability to see patterns where others do not allows her to successfully receive messages sent by the universe and employ them towards the salvation of the human race, all while communicating with her long-lost father in a way that transcends both space and time.

Casey Affleck is even more humorless and bitter as Cooper’s grown son, Tom.  In his father’s absence, the work of maintaining the family farm has fallen to him, and the hard, fruitless work and tragic death of his firstborn son has left him an angry and hollow shell of the optimistic and eager boy he once was.

Well known for his gangly, boyish physicality, Affleck instead conveys an imposing corn-fed frame and a pragmatic coldness that puts him at odds with Murph’s good intentions.
Ever since THE PRESTIGE brought back several members of the cast from BATMAN BEGINS, Nolan has made a habit of retaining key actors for multiple successive collaborations.  Michael Caine is easily the most visible example of this aspect of Nolan’s career, having appeared in all of the director’s films since 2005.

In INTERSTELLAR, Caine plays Cooper’s mentor Professor Brand, the weary NASA scientist in charge of the Endurance mission.  The character is a variation on the archetype he typically plays in Nolan’s work– that of the sagely mentor and charming bearer of exposition– but where the Professor Brand character diverges the most from prior performances is in his intentional misleading of Cooper and his crew about the ultimate impossibility of their primary mission objective.

Anne Hathaway, hot off her first collaboration with Nolan in THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, plays Professor Brand’s daughter, also named Brand. As a character who finds herself caught at the intersection of faith and reason, Hathaway capably conveys her character’s vulnerable intelligence and idealistic confidence.

More than just a potential love interest for Cooper, Brand is a conduit through which Nolan presents one of INTERSTELLAR’s key ideas– the idea of “love” as a powerful, quantifiable cosmic concept.  In other words: the idea of “love” being a separate dimension unto itself that can transcend and influence time, space, and gravity.

The rest of INTERSTELLAR’s supporting players are comprised of faces well-known, obscure, and surprising.  Shielded from all marketing materials prior to the release of the film, Matt Damon unexpectedly turns up halfway through the film in a major role as Mann, a team member from a previous reconnaissance mission who is discovered on a desolate, icy planet ensconced in his hypersleep pod.

Upon waking, Mann is initially grateful and overwhelmed that someone came to find him, but as the realization dawns that his planet is ultimately not suitable for Earth’s new home, he reveals the ruthless and cowardly survivalist side of his nature.  His name is no doubt a nod on Nolan’s part to director Michael Mann, a filmmaker who has served as a profound influence on Nolan’s particular aesthetic.

Following the casting of Joseph Gordon-Levitt in INCEPTION and THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, Nolan’s casting of Topher Grace and John Lithgow here evidences what could seen as a curious fascination with 90’s sitcom stars, with Grace making his way from THAT 70’s SHOW and Lithgow well-known from his stint on THIRD ROCK FROM THE SUN (which also starred Gordon-Levitt).

Grace plays Getty, adult-Murph’s NASA colleague, while Lithgow eases into a grizzled seniority to play Donald, Cooper’s father-in-law and grandfather to Murph and Tom.  One of the more interesting aspects of Lithgow’s character is his age in relation to the timeline of Nolan’s story, which would place him as a member of the contemporary Millennial generation.

Veteran character actress Ellen Burstyn is a poignant presence as the elderly Murph, having eclipsed her own father in age thanks to the relativistic aspects of time and space travel.  Wes Bentley and David Gyasi play Doyle and Romilly, respectively– two fellow astronauts on the Endurance mission who help explain the film’s brain-twisting concepts about relativity to the audience.

Bill Irwin makes the best of a thankless task by providing the voice and puppetry for TARS, a non-humanoid, artificially-intelligent robot that accompanies the Endurance crew.  Despite having his presence painted out of the frame entirely, Irwin ably injects a genuine sense of lively humanity into TARS, resulting in a memorable silver screen robot in the mold of HAL-9000 and C-3PO.

Nine features into his career, Nolan has solidified a core group of trusted craftspeople in service to his vision: producer/wife Emma Thomas, production designer Nathan Crowley, composer Hans Zimmer, and editor Lee Smith.  However, INTERSTELLAR forces Nolan to make a radical change in a key department.

Wally Pfister, who had shot all of Nolan’s films since MEMENTO, was unavailable to shoot INCEPTION because of the production of his own directorial debut, TRANSCENDENCE.  Understandably, Pfister leaves big shoes to fill, but Dutch-Swedish cinematographer Hoyte Van Hoytema proves a more-than-capable replacement, reinvigorating Nolan’s outsized aesthetic by virtue of his fresh perspective.

He ably replicates the muted earth and metal color palette of Nolan’s previous films while infusing INTERSTELLAR with a gritty, documentary-style immediacy uncommon to most sci-fi films.  He achieves this by shooting a majority of the film handheld, which results in naturalistic compositions that evoke an organic, lyrical nature not unlike the late-career aesthetic of Terrence Malick.

Hoytema employs other tools like blown highlights and Spielbergian and Abrams-esque lens flares that fan out into concentrated horizontal bands of light– a visual artifact unique to anamorphic lenses.

From the cinematography on down to the final sound mix, Nolan intended for INTERSTELLAR to be his most technically ambitious work to date.  The lion’s share of his attention is lavished on the visuals, building on his innovative use of large-format film gauges in a narrative setting.

If its staggering runtime of 2 hours and 49 minutes wasn’t enough, Nolan projects the unprecedented scale of INTERSTELLAR’s narrative by shooting his largest ratio of IMAX to 35mm film yet.  The supersized IMAX format betters conveys the infinite depths of space, restoring a sense of grandeur and wonder to a genre that’s otherwise been lost in recent years to an orgy of flimsy CGI-fests.

Indeed, when Nolan juxtaposes the microscopic insignificance of human spacecraft against the massive backdrop of Saturn, it’s hard to imagine any other format that can better communicate the awe-inspiring scale of the heavens.

With each successive film, Nolan further innovates and strengthens IMAX’s capabilities for narrative storytelling, and INTERSTELLAR provides him with the opportunity to use it in conventional dialogue scenes or handheld in cramped quarters in addition to grandiose moments of spectacle.

The use of IMAX also highlights Nolan’s preference for celluloid, allowing him to better demonstrate film’s strengths while combating the ballooning resolution of digital formats fast approaching their ten-thousandth pixel.

In a way, Nolan achieves a poetic sublimity in his use of IMAX on INTERSTELLAR– one of his primary motivators for using the format in the first place was his reasoning that if an IMAX camera can be lugged into space, it can be used to shoot a narrative feature film.  With INTERSTELLAR, this reasoning comes full circle, finding Nolan employing the format in service to the depiction of space.
One of the core operating principles of Nolan’s approach to INTERSTELLAR was that anything that could be captured in-camera would be captured in-camera.  Granted, Nolan typically avoids CGI wherever he can, but the particular challenges of making INTERSTELLAR presented special consideration.  As he had done for select scenes in INCEPTION, Nolan once again looked to the model of Stanley Kubrick’s 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY, a science fiction masterpiece whose groundbreaking practical effects are still convincing after half a century.

While one could certainly make the case that Kubrick would have preferred the control and precision afforded by digital techniques had they been available to him, 2001’s practical, in-camera effects are nevertheless a major component of its longevity.

Following Kubrick’s lead, Nolan mandated that INTERSTELLAR would resort to computer-generated imagery only when necessary.  As such, a grand majority of the film’s spaceships, costumes, sets, and non-human characters are physical builds or miniatures.

INTERSTELLAR’s two robot characters, TARS and CASE, were achieved through a mix of computer graphics and physical puppetry, with actor Bill Irwin giving life to the bulky slab of inanimate metal via an elaborate counterbalance system.

Rather than juxtapose green-screened astronauts against a computer-generated alien landscape, Christopher Nolan simply flew the production to the real-life alien landscape of Iceland, which stood in for the film’s water and ice planets.

This approach also extended to sequences set on Cooper’s farm back on Earth, where he had his team actually build a functional full-scale house and plant fields of corn out in the Canadian province of Alberta.

The spaceship sets, built on a soundstage in LA by returning production designer Nathan Crowley, were designed to be as realistically functional as possible in a bid to emulate the harshly utilitarian conditions of space travel.

This meant foregoing the luxury of breakaway walls while projecting high resolution images of space onto a giant cyc, enabling the cast to look out the windows of the Endurance and actually feel like they were in space.

Even the four-dimensional tesseract sequence– one of the most abstract concepts ever presented in a mainstream Hollywood film– was, surprisingly, built as a practical set.  This isn’t to say that INTERSTELLAR doesn’t contain its fair share of computer-generated imagery, but rather that Nolan’s conscious decision to capture as much as he could in-camera should be celebrated, and has arguably created a piece of work that will hold up considerably well in the years to come.

INTERSTELLAR further echoes 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY in striving to depict the challenges and logistics of space travel as accurately as possible.  Towards this end, Nolan brings on Kip Thorne not just as an executive producer, but as a key creative partner on the level of a cinematographer or production designer.

Thorne is one of the leading minds in his field, which makes the ideas presented in INTERSTELLAR not only scientifically accurate, but exceedingly cutting-edge.  These ideas aren’t just limited to technical aspects like the conceivably-realistic spaceship interiors or the accurate approach to sound design in the vacuum of space; every development in the story bases itself upon the established laws of physics and relativity, no matter how fantastical or impossible it may seem.

Admittedly, the film does deviate dramatically from hard science when Cooper allows himself to drop into a black hole, but the ultimate impossibility of knowing what lies beyond the event horizon is an appropriate enough excuse for a little dramatic license.

To Nolan and Thorne’s credit, the depiction of the black hole itself is derived as accurately as possible from our current understanding of them– Thorne worked out complicated relativity equations for the computer graphics team so they could accurately recreate the warping and luminescence of Gargantua’s accretion disk.

Even the simulation itself was an immense undertaking, generating over 800 terabytes of information and some frames taking a hundred hours or more to render.  In the process, Thorne and the visual effects team managed to make actual, quantifiable scientific breakthroughs in our understanding of the heavens’ most mysterious phenomenon.

INTERSTELLAR goes to great lengths to explain how black holes entwine the forces of gravity and time, using the relativity of time as a major source of emotional conflict.  Each time the Endurance mission faces a delay or unexpected problem, years or decades go by on Earth– and Cooper’s chance of ever seeing his family again drops precipitously.

Naturally, this is a very heady concept that isn’t easily grasped, necessitating frequent expositional and jargon-laden monologues that lay out the challenge our characters face in no uncertain, unsubtle terms.

Yet, these moments never feel like a chore or a burden to struggle through.  Nolan deals with mind-bending plot devices so frequently that he’s made the delivery of bulky exposition into something of an art form.   

Since their first collaboration on BATMAN BEGINS, composer Hans Zimmer has played an increasingly important part in shaping Nolan’s artistic identity.  After spending several years working as something of a journeyman composer for big-budget action films, Zimmer’s collaborations with Nolan have increasingly steered him towards an avant-garde minimalism.  Nolan has pushed Zimmer to reinvent the wheel with each successive project, and INTERSTELLAR just might be the veteran composer’s most ambitious score to date.

Having grown weary of the conventional director/composer collaborative relationship, Nolan employed an inspired tactic: rather than scoring off of the edited film, Zimmer was given a one page brief before the start of production.

The brief did not outline the story of the film, describe the character, or give any indication of the scale– it didn’t even state that this was a science fiction film.  Instead, the brief described abstract sentiments about family, parenthood, and time that zeroed in on the beating heart of the film’s emotional core.

From this barest of sketches, Zimmer generated a beautifully atmospheric, mysterious, and hopeful suite of music.  Advised by Nolan to stay away from the tried-and-true orchestral string arrangements, Zimmer sourced his sounds from a palette of ticking clocks, melancholy piano chords, and most notably, an urgent church organ.

Indeed, the organ (and the particular acoustic resonance gained by recording it inside an actual cathedral) is the defining characteristic of INTERSTELLAR’s score, perfectly evoking the religiosity of the celestial heavens as well as our tireless search for a higher meaning to our existence.

By not tailoring his score to the expectations of the science fiction genre, Zimmer is able to tap directly into universality of the human experience at the center of the story and deliver one of the finest works of his career.

INTERSTELLAR dovetails quite naturally and cohesively with several of the core thematic fascinations that comprises Nolan’s artistic identity.  Time (and the manipulation thereof) consistently shapes the structure of his films, and INTERSTELLAR posits that time is a spatial dimension unto itself– one that can be stepped outside of and looked in on as it stretches and warps in a relativistic relationship with gravity.

Whereas MEMENTO played with the lateral direction of time, or INCEPTION explored how a single action’s effect could compound along multiple parallel timelines, INTERSTELLAR goes one step further by turning time into a physical dimension, embodied in the four-dimensional tesseract that allows Cooper to interact with his daughter across multiple points of her lifespan.

It’s immediately apparent that Nolan sees great dramatic potential in the relativity of time as it pertains to gravity– one of the film’s most emotionally resonant sequences finds Cooper and Brand marooned on a water planet closely orbiting the gravity-dense black hole.

Because the individual perception of time differs according to the strength of gravity’s pull, they perceive themselves as being on the surface for only a few hours.  When they return to the ship in orbit, however, they learn that twenty-three years have passed on Earth, and Cooper has an inbox with a lifetime’s worth of messages from his kids, who have grown up in his absence and have reached the same age he had been when he left home.

Nolan’s fascination with time is also represented by his usage of montage and cross-cutting in pursuit of a subjective emotional experience and the building of dramatic intensity.

Looking over his series of collaborations with regular editor Lee Smith, it’s not uncommon for Nolan to employ cross-cuts that span great distances of time and space, but INTERSTELLAR’s cross-cuts compress whole decades and unfathomable light-years within the space of a single frame.

One memorable sequence late in the film cuts between Murph diverting her brother’s attention by burning his corn crop, while on an icy world in a separate galaxy, McConaughey battles for his life against Damon’s attacks.  They are separated by untold millions of miles and several dozens of Earth-years, but they are united in their singular, cosmic struggle to save the human race.

Nolan’s films explore and subvert our perception of time in pursuit of a greater, unified statement about the subjectivity (and fragility) of our individual realities–  there is no single objective truth in his films, no matter how hard his characters search for it.

Perhaps that’s why his protagonists are always so tortured or burdened with regret… they’ve devoted the entirety of themselves to the pursuit of something they ultimately can never attain.

Nolan has sometimes been called an “emotional mathematician”, most notably by fellow director Guillermo Del Toro.  Beyond his championing of technical precision and a tendency to manipulate the emotions of his audience through calculated technique instead of raw artistic ingenuity, the phrase also alludes to his use of academic disciplines like geometry and science in his storytelling.

In other words, a large portion of his life’s work has been a celebration of the magic of data.  This is true in INTERSTELLAR more so than any of his previous films, with entire plot points hinging around the conveyance of ideas and messages via morse code, binary coordinates, flight path equations, and even gravity as a form of interdimensional communication.

A considerable amount of screentime is dedicated to Cooper and his crew figuring out how to best conserve their limited fuel supply, which isn’t as boring as it sounds when it means we get to see him pull daredevil spin maneuvers to slow down his lander rather than using fuel-consuming air brakes.  This conceit folds in well with Nolan’s reputation for structuring his plots as puzzles his characters must solve.

INTERSTELLAR’s astronauts must summon all their intellect and resourcefulness in order to solve the biggest puzzle of all: gravity.  Architecture plays a significant role in this regard, most notably in the design of NASA’s cavernous underground bunker.

The space is shaped like a massive centrifuge, and for good reason– once Brand solves the problem of gravity, he plans to physically lift the building into space as a 21st century ark that will ensure humanity’s survival.  Its circular shape will allow the station to spin in orbit, generating artificial gravity for its inhabitants.

The exotic world of space travel allows Nolan to indulge in his continued exploration of functional style.  Great consideration was given to the film’s spacesuit costumes, with Nolan striving for a sleeker silhouette than the cumbersome suits employed by modern astronauts.

As a piece of equipment designed to sustain an astronaut’s life systems in hostile environments, these suits are inherently functional, and Nolan finds the opportunity to enhance their functionality towards the film shoot itself by building microphones directly into his actors’  helmets.

Classic literature has also played an increasingly prominent role in Nolan’s work, stemming from his college years as an English Lit major and most recently evidenced in the inspiration that Charles Dickens’ “A Tale of Two Cities” served in the development of THE DARK KNIGHT RISES.

In INTERSTELLAR, Professor Brand routinely recites Dylan Thomas’ classic poem “Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night” as a propulsive mantra, continually reminding us of the ultimate cost humanity will pay should the mission fail.

Though Nolan is very mechanically-minded in both the thematics and execution of his story, INTERSTELLAR’s ultimate message is surprisingly organic and optimistically abstract: that love is a higher dimension than both space and time; that we all draw from an interconnected, cosmic soul; that our love for each other gives the human race meaning and significance in the face of a cold, endless oblivion.

By the time of INTERSTELLAR’s release in November of 2014, Paramount had completely ceased the distribution of celluloid release prints in favor of an all-digital delivery to theaters.  However, Nolan harnessed his considerable clout and convinced the studio to make an exception for him, even going so far as providing an incentive to see the IMAX, 70mm and conventional 35mm film prints over digital by making them available a full two days before the film’s official release.

INTERSTELLAR scored mostly-positive critical reviews, most of which praised Nolan’s considerable technical showmanship and awe-inspiring ambition even as they found some faults in the overall cohesiveness of his story.

While the film’s box office performance didn’t post BATMAN kinds of numbers, Nolan’s rabid fanbase and INTERSTELLAR’s buzz as “the most anticipated film of 2014” all but guaranteed a healthy haul.

INTERSTELLAR’s legacy as a technical triumph was confirmed at the Academy Awards, where it was nominated for Best Score, Best Sound Mixing, Best Sound Editing, and Best Production Design.

It would go on to win the Oscar for Best Visual Effects– the same category that Kubrick won for his work on 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY.  While INTERSTELLAR may not end up as timeless a classic as Kubrick’s masterpiece, it will nevertheless go down as one of the most audacious and ambitious science fiction epics ever made.


QUAY (2015)

As a noted champion of practical effects and technical craftsmanship, director Christopher Nolan has a vested interest in supporting similarly-minded filmmakers.  As the director of some of the biggest blockbusters in recent memory, Nolan also has the power to shed light on underexposed voices by using the pedigree of his own name to help them find a new audience.

In 2015, Nolan did just for that the Quay brothers, two masters of imaginative puppet animation celebrated for their handcrafted gothic aesthetic that’s less Walt Disney and more David Lynch.

The 8-minute QUAY is Nolan’s first documentary effort, and the first short he’s made since 1997’s DOODLEBUG.  Working with co-producer Andy Thompson, Nolan acts as a one-man crew like he did on his feature debut FOLLOWING (1998), serving as director, producer, cinematographer, and editor as he documents the Quay brothers giving a tour of their cavernous shop and their myriad creations.

Ever true to his purist approach towards celluloid cinema, Nolan shoots QUAY on 35mm film in the 1:85:1 aspect ratio, conforming his high-contrast, desaturated earth-tone aesthetic to a handheld, observational tone.  Nolan is content to simply let the Quay brothers riff on the nature of their work without inserting himself into the conversation or imposing any sort of contrived narrative, ultimately creating an intimate portrait of two artisans and the lo-fi, handmade artistry behind their inimitable body of work.

QUAY screened at the Film Forum in New York before being made available on a boutique Blu Ray release collecting several of the brothers’ iconic shorts.  Nolan’s reverence and appreciation for the Quays is palpable; there’s no question he regards their work as a formative influence on his own approach to filmmaking.

Naturally, the Quays were renowned long before Nolan turned his lens on them and didn’t necessarily need a documentary like QUAY to expose their work to a wide audience, but the film does however reach a different audience– the kind whose diet consists only of mainstream Hollywood spectacles and isn’t particularly inclined to seek out the eccentric deep cuts of indie animation.

In showing us a key influence in his advocacy for practical effects in the face of digital wizardry, Nolan reveals a deeper insight into his own artistic character while suggesting the beginning of a more-intimate and experimental phase in his professional development.

QUAY is available in high definition on the The Quay Brothers Collected Short Films Blu Ray via Zeitgeist Films and Syncopy.


Dunkirk (2016)

Along with the mass devastation and the loss of millions of lives, World War 2 brought about something positive: a recognition of the innate heroism in every person.  It wasn’t just a conflict fought by unseen general and soldiers on some distant field by– it was a harrowing ordeal that quite literally hit home for countless civilians around the world.  The European theater, in particular, saw no shortage of battles play out within the confines of its urban centers; no one could say their personal lives weren’t directly affected by the war.

You can read all of Christopher Nolan’s Screenplays here.

When we hear about stories of courage in combat, we tend to remember these episodes with a veneer of romanticism, and rightly so– World War 2 is often painted as a necessary “good” war, in which the forces of freedom and righteousness waged a battle against the evil and inhumane virtues of fascism for the soul of the twentieth century.  However, the people actually living these episodes of courage — soldiers and civilians alike — most likely didn’t view their experiences through the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia.  Indeed, many of these courageous moments were a result of terrified men and women simply trying to survive.

This sentiment– a complex fusion of bittersweet heroism, desperate self-preservation, and corrosive survivor’s guilt —  drives director Christopher Nolan’s tenth feature film, DUNKIRK (2017).  Structured less as a conventional war film and more like a harrowing survival thriller, DUNKIRK recreates the evacuation of Allied forces from the eponymous coastal town in France as an awe-inspiring story of unfathomable courage and frenzied survival, despite the event itself serving as a tactical loss for the good guys.  This snatching of an emotional victory from the jaws of strategic defeat is precisely the sort of peculiar irony that attracted Nolan to the story when he initially conceived of the project in the mid-’90s, while sailing across the English Channel along the evacuation route with his wife and producing partner, Emma Thomas.

He envisioned an immersive experience that expanded upon the war genre’s rather simplistic emotional dynamics with a wider range of color, thus achieving a different kind of reverence towards Dunkirk’s participants– one that didn’t reduce their memory to cheap, two-dimensional patriotism.  The idea stayed with Nolan through the subsequent decades, even as his career exploded into the stratosphere following the breakout success of films like MEMENTO (2000) and BATMAN BEGINS (2005).  After the completion in 2014 of his sprawling space epic, INTERSTELLAR, Nolan finally felt he had accumulated enough experience and artistic clout to tackle DUNKIRK as his next feature-length project.

Admittedly, this is something of an absurd sentiment on its face– how could the director of gigantic films like THE DARK KNIGHT TRILOGY, INCEPTION, and INTERSTELLAR not feel ready or experienced enough to helm a $100 million film about a real-world event?  One only needs to look at the finished product to see the answer lies not in Nolan’s confidence towards his technical mastery, but rather in the amount of creative goodwill he needed in order to take so experimental a tack with such an expensive effort.

Indeed, DUNKIRK stands as something of a culmination of the many artistic strands that Nolan had been developing and perfecting throughout his career and only now was it possible for him to tie these strands together into a cohesive, singular experience.  Here was a director at the apex of both his technical powers and his cultural relevance, empowered to make whatever he wanted at whatever scale he wanted thanks to a long-standing relationship with Warner Brothers that had reached the rarefied air of total creative trust and financial backing previously reserved for such heavyweights as Stanley Kubrick, Alfred Hitchcock, or even Cecil B. DeMille.

Their partnership had been so fruitful that, at this point, he could have asked for $100 million to direct an adaptation of the phone book and they would’ve cut a check in the room.  Thankfully for the studio —and for audiences —it wasn’t the phone book that Nolan wanted to direct, but rather a harrowing, minimalist story about courage under fire that would showcase the director’s staggering technical prowess while pushing his artistic inclinations in bold, new directions.

In retelling the story of DUNKIRK, Nolan couldn’t escape the fact that the event was technically a retreat— at this point of the war in 1940, Axis forces had taken so much of France that the Allies felt their best course of action was to pull back and regroup for a better defense against the German’s inevitable attack on the British homeland.  In the small coastal town of Dunkirk, close to the Belgian border, this evacuation was met with a relentless assault by well-supplied German forces, intent on decimating their numbers before they could set foot off the European continent.

Having cultivated an effective cross-cutting technique throughout his previous work, Nolan desired to employ it towards the whole of a feature-length narrative, in effect creating one long note of sustained suspense that he described as, in his words: “the story of immediate tension in the present tense”.  Right away, this suggested that the director would have to eschew his tendencies towards increasingly-inflated runtimes and zero in on the most concise, succinct version of the narrative at hand.  Indeed, at an hour and 45 minutes, DUNKIRK is Nolan’s shortest film since his 1998 debut feature, FOLLOWING.

The film is split up into three distinct planes of action: the air, the sea, and the ground (referred to in the film as “the mole”, so named after the dock jutting out from the beach).  Each of these separate strands ducks and weave through each other, only to converge at the end as the battle reaches a fever pitch.

DUNKIRK takes a decentralized approach to its plot, trashing the idea of a singular protagonist in favor of enigmatic figureheads; fictional composites instead of historical accounts.  They have names, to be sure, but we as an audience don’t have the luxury of time to learn them when our very survival is at stake.  I say “our survival” because Nolan intends for these characters to simply serve as windows for the audience to immerse themselves in the harrowing sweep of history as it unfolds.  We never see beyond this limited, subjective perspective— we’re stuck with the Allied forces on the ground, forced to flee with them as chaos and destruction surrounding us.

We rarely even see the attackers, save for the occasional German plane.  In casting DUNKIRK, Nolan mostly ignores his reputation as a director of prestigious, Academy Award-nominated talent in favor of young unknowns like Fionn Whitehead, who anchors the mole sequences as the boyish and doggedly determined grunt, Tommy— so-named not for a specific person, but for the era’s slang term for a rank-and-file British soldier.

Whitehead’s story is one of sheer survival, desperately grabbing for any toehold to safety like a rat fleeing a flood.  His companion in this regard is a fellow soldier named Alex, played by world-renowned pop singer Harry Styles in his first major acting role.  Interestingly enough, Nolan reportedly wasn’t aware of Styles’ fame at the time, having thought he had cast a young unknown like Whitehead off the strength of his talents.

Styles nevertheless proves more than capable, readily eschewing any pretense of rock star glamor or vanity in order to fit in with the desperation and grit that surrounds him.  The sea-based sequences illustrate one of England’s crowning moments of the entire war, in which a small fleet of civilian pleasure cruisers sailed across the English Channel and directly into harm’s way to help evacuate their countrymen in uniform.

DUNKIRK zeroes in on the journey of The Moonstone, a tiny boat captained by Mark Rylance’s Mr. Dawson.  He courageously charts a treacherous course to Dunkirk with both his son and his son’s best friend in tow, only to find himself in a contained chamber drama when he picks up a lone, PTSD-riddled soldier caught adrift in open water.  Played by longtime Nolan collaborator Cillian Murphy, the Shivering Soldier (as he’s credited in the titles) is hellbent on getting back to London, and his combative response to Dawson’s insistence on keeping course to Dunkirk leads to drama just as unpredictable and dangerous as the battle they’re sailing into.

The last third of DUNKIRK’s triptych of narratives finds Tom Hardy as a hyper-focused RAF pilot named Farrier, expertly blasting German fighter planes out of the sky in his Spitfire— that is, until he runs low on fuel and risks having to ditch out behind enemy lines.  Another member of Nolan’s loyal repertory of performers, Hardy was no doubt selected in part because of his uniquely expressive eyes— an absolute necessity when the character’s face must be hidden behind a bulky flight mask for the majority of the picture.  Hardy had previously accomplished this same task for Nolan as the menacing masked brute, Bane, in 2012’s THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, and achieves in DUNKIRK a similar effect, albeit one that’s better calibrated to his character’s stoic heroism.  It’s also in Hardy’s storyline that one finds the film’s most cleverly-disguised cameo: Michael Caine, who just barely manages to add another link in his unbroken chain of successive performances for Nolan since BATMAN BEGINS by lending his iconic voice to the role of an officer dispatching commands over the two-way radio.  Out of a cast of literally hundreds, Jack Lowden, Barry Keoghan, Tom Glynn-Carney, and fellow director Kenneth Branagh deliver standout performances, with Branagh’s turn as Commander Bolton serving as a particularly compelling reminder of the dignified composure exhibited by the Allied brass even as the world was falling down around them.

With INTERSTELLAR, Nolan borrowed liberally from the Steven Spielberg school of filmmaking, adopting several of his predecessor’s stylistic affectations to imbue the unknowable majesty of space and our cosmic connectivity with a sense of overwhelming wonder and awe.  Spielberg has similarly influenced the war genre, with his 1998 classic SAVING PRIVATE RYAN providing the aesthetic and emotional benchmark for subsequent war pictures to follow.

While DUNKIRK shares inevitable similarities to SAVING PRIVATE RYAN in a stylistic sense, Nolan charts his own course, fashioning a visceral experience that speaks to his impeccable technical pedigree as well as his desire to reinvent the visual language of whatever genre he’s working in.  This is evident in the initial references he drew inspiration from— one might expect to see a list of iconic war films, but Nolan draws from a wider, more disparate pool of sources: ALL QUIET ON THE WESTERN FRONT and THE BATTLE OF ALGIERS appropriately conveyed the chaos of battle to his collaborators, but other works like THE WAGES OF FEAR, ALIEN, SPEED, FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT, and SUNRISE asserted themselves as exercises in sustained suspense or unique applications of montage.

SUNRISE, a 1927 silent classic by German director F.W. Murnau, a 1927 silent classic by German director F.W. Murnau, proved to be a key reference for DUNKIRK, with the narrative challenges inherent in the absence of sound demonstrated for the benefit of the film’s ambitions as an almost-exclusively visual work.  Towards this end, Nolan also looked to the influence of other silent-era directors like Cecil B. DeMille for his handling of epic spectacle and large crowds.

DUNKIRK retains the stark, austere visuals that Nolan is known for, adopting his signature metal & earth tone color palette while photochemically boiling his chromatic spectrum down to a limited range of cold blues, teals, and greys.  The gloomy daylight that hangs over the English Channel takes on a creamy tinge as it provides the key light for a naturalistic, yet foreboding presentation.  It’s only a matter of time until Nolan succeeds in making an entire picture with large format photography like IMAX, and DUNKIRK naturally represents Nolan’s most ambitious effort to date towards that goal.

Working once again with his INTERSTELLAR cinematographer Hoyte Van Hoytema, Nolan uses conventional 35mm celluloid film only when he has to— most notably in dialogue-intensive scenes that take place in cramped quarters like the Moonstone’s cabin below deck.  For the vast majority of DUNKIRK — about 70-75% of the finished product — Nolan, and Hoytema use a blend of large format 65mm and IMAX film.

While this approach retains the abrupt, somewhat-jarring shifts of aspect ratio between the CinemaScope 35mm and the larger full-frame gauges, DUNKIRK’s visceral command of its massive scale keeps the audience fully immersed with a minimum of distraction.

Nolan captures this overwhelming, all-consuming chaos with his signature epic flair, blending majestic classical camerawork with urgent handheld photography that ably evokes the “war is hell” tonality of SAVING PRIVATE RYAN while still asserting an aesthetic character all its own.  Nolan’s love of aerial photography works particularly well in this regard, bringing seasoned and enthusiastic energy to DUNKIRK’s Dramamine-necessitating dogfight sequences.

The film as a whole naturally acts as the latest showcase for Nolan’s advocacy for the supremacy of celluloid’s organic grit over digital’s glossy sheen, putting the format’s resiliency to the test many times over.  One particular instance would involve the loss of an IMAX camera when the plane it was mounted to accidentally sunk to the bottom of the sea.  While the camera was understandably toasted, the film inside was not.  Indeed, the hardy archival qualities of celluloid meant that not only was the footage useable— it was pristine.

While the film is stuffed to the brim with the epic spectacle we’ve come to expect from Nolan’s filmography, there’s also a curious tonal intimacy at play; a touch of the avant-garde that allows DUNKIRK to function as both a compelling dramatization of a historical event as well as an abstract meditation on industrial-scale survival and courage under extreme fire.

The bulk of DUNKIRK was shot in the locations where it actually happened— most notably, the same beach where soldiers lined up to board evacuation boats while bombs fell around them.  Nolan’s longtime production designer, Nathan Crowley, even rebuilt the mole from the original blueprints.  Even when the production moved to the waters off of Holland or a water tank in Los Angeles for select sequences, the crew dedicated themselves to historical accuracy in the details— right down to the last steel rivet.  At the same time, his treatment of landscape reduces his backdrops to two planes of action: above and below.

The shared horizon line that bisects his frames ties the mole, sea, and air narratives together with a thematic uniformity, but it also has the effect of abstractifying the action into an interior realm.  This impression goes a long way towards explaining why Nolan felt he needed to accumulate more experience & clout before embarking on production— especially in the calculated cynicism of today’s studio climate, he wouldn’t have been able to make DUNKIRK as the impressionistic survival & courage allegory that he did, at the level of production value he did, and with a mostly young and unknown cast… unless he himself was the brand that guaranteed a healthy return on investment.

It takes a great deal of experience and confidence to under-develop his characters in the manner he does here; it goes against every grain in our artistic bodies and everything we’ve been taught about writing stories.  However, Nolan recognized that the Battle of Dunkirk was a much bigger story than any one person and that the most effective version of any film recreation would be the one that captured the shared humanity of its participants while installing key avatars through which the audience could immerse itself fully and share in the experience.

This is something that cinema does better than almost any other established or emerging medium, and Nolan recognizes this.  It’s why he eschews cheap gimmickry like 3-D in favor of large film formats that quite literally fill the audience’s field of view.  It’s why he avoids the uncanny plastic sheen of digital and embraces the organic warmth and texture of celluloid.  Immersion demands as few barriers between the image and the audience as possible, and DUNKIRK succeeds in this regard due to Nolan’s artistic precision as well as the subtle abstract touch he brings to the proceedings.

Nowhere is Nolan’s avant-garde touch more evident than DUNKIRK’s original score, composed by longtime music collaborator Hans Zimmer in partnership with Benjamin Wallfisch and Lorne Balfe, among others.  Zimmer and Wallfisch’s foreboding suite of cues is anything but subtle, evoking the dark belly of the military-industrial beast that was World War 2.  Limited melodies compete for air against an expressive industrial texture, with an arrangement of string and brass instruments manipulated so as to recall the alarming whine of an approaching fighter plane or the listless whir of a ship engine as it teeters onto its side.

Simply put, the score is a harrowing, unrelenting juggernaut of abstract musicality, made all the more intense by Zimmer’s deployment of the “Shepard Tone”— an auditory illusion that Zimmer previously used to similar effect on THE PRESTIGEand in The Joker’s theme for THE DARK KNIGHT, wherein a sense of escalating danger is implied by a tone whose pitch seems to escalate towards infinity without breaking.

The effect is one of squirming tension on the part of the listener; an auditory twisting of the knife that corkscrews the anxious feelings in our stomachs, like waiting for the beat to drop in Hell.  As he did previously on INTERSTELLAR, Zimmer also synthesizes the sound of Nolan’s ticking pocket watch and lays it down it as the bedrock of DUNKIRK’s score.  As if the music wasn’t intense enough, the tick-tick-tick sound of time literally dripping away amplifies the desperate intensity of DUNKIRK’s tone while conveying to the audience just how close the world came to an Axis occupation of the United Kingdom— if it hadn’t been for the courageous spirit and dogged resistance of its people.

Indeed, time — the device of the ticking clock  — unifies the thematic whole of DUNKIRK, placing the film as an exploratory apex within Nolan’s career.  Again, the story essentially functions as one large escape sequence, with the Allied forces racing against the clock from the encroaching German menace as they try to get off the beaches of Dunkirk and safely across the English Channel.  In the capable hands of Nolan’s longtime editor, Lee Smith, this exercise in narrative minimalism becomes another forum in which Nolan can actively manipulate the bounds, indeed the very shape, of time itself.  Since his very first feature, Nolan has actively utilized cinema’s unique ability to convey sophisticated storytelling through nonlinear structure.  His primary tool in this regard is the cross-cut, which he’s employed throughout his filmography to tremendous effect.

Whereas Nolan’s previous films tend to use the cross-cut to add emotional heft to key narrative sequences, DUNKIRK basically functions as a feature-length string of cross-cuts.  Rather than numbing his audience to its effects, Nolan instead seems to reach a new level of complexity and sophistication with his approach to montage.  Each component of the story’s organizational triptych — the mole, the sea, and the air — takes place over a different time span: a week, a day, and one hour, respectively.

By dovetailing these sequences into each other as one seemingly-continuous event, Nolan effortlessly compresses and expands time at will.  Admittedly, this is a rather large leap of artistic license on Nolan’s part, especially when so much attention is otherwise paid to historical accuracy within the frame, but Nolan’s approach nonetheless captures the harrowing emotional truth of the battle.  The fractured chronological presentation also allows the story to revisit key moments from earlier in the film, revealing different perspectives that deepen our understanding of the big picture.

One such moment is the scene where Farrier’s co-pilot ditches into the sea.  From Farrier’s perspective in the air, it looks like a stable, almost peaceful water landing; assured of his colleague’s safety, he jets off to another part of the battle.  From the co-pilot’s perspective, however, it’s a very different story: beyond the initial impact of the crash landing, the cabin quickly fills up with water, and he can’t open the cockpit glass to escape.  DUNKIRK is filled with moments like these; moments that convey a complex, dueling subjectivity that amplifies as the various timelines intersect and collide with each other.

Nolan’s creative subversion of chronology is easily the most visible signifier of his authorship, but it’s far from the only one.  DUNKIRK abounds with displays of Nolan’s secondary artistic signatures, like his fascination with functional style as embodied in the military uniforms seen throughout, or Farrier’s on-the-fly calculations about his fuel consumption pointing to the director’s use of math and physics as a storytelling tool.  However, what immediately sets DUNKIRK apart from other films of its ilk is the sheer weight of the picture.

Nolan’s previous films all boast a visceral heft to their impact — a palpable gravity to match their monumental ambitions.  This impression is due in large part to Nolan’s dogged insistence on practical, old-fashioned filmmaking that demands everything that can be captured in-camera will be captured in-camera.  Famously averse to the reliance on CGI that stains the films of his contemporaries,  Nolan commands an intimidating array of practical resources that give DUNKIRK its distinct feeling of inescapable danger.

Make no mistake— the ability to make a film at this scale with the resources he demands is a luxury; a direct benefit of his status as a certified moneymaker and pop culture icon.  Fortunately, Nolan makes these demands always in service to his story, and not his vanity.  DUNKIRK finds Nolan’s deployment of practical FX reaching new levels of challenge, necessitating the director to alter how he conducted his own set in order to create a truly immersive environment for the audience.

For instance, he went so far as to have members of his own crew dress up in the military costumes worn by the extras so that they could hide in plain sight within the shot as he shot in all directions.  He also incorporated old-school techniques to amplify the size of his crowds; whereas now one can simply copy and paste any number of digital extras into a scene, he went to the trouble of creating detailed cardboard cutouts of soldiers to put in the far distance of his frames.

This pursuit of the analog over the digital permeates DUNKIRK, creating no shortage of technical challenges for his crew, like: “how exactly does one mount an IMAX camera to a vintage fighter plane?”.  We should know the answer by now: by quite literally bolting the camera mount to the wing of a specially-modified plane, attaching some specialty periscope lenses and taking that sucker up into the air.  DUNKIRK’s aerial dogfighting sequences boast some of the film’s most gripping moments; we can quite literally feel the G-forces pulling on our guts as we bank, roll, and dive with Farrier’s Spitfire. A substantial portion of these scenes were actually shot up in the air, with the actors in the cockpit.

Most filmmakers of Nolan’s ilk would be happy to throw up a mock cockpit in front of a green screen and call it a day, but his desire to capture as much of his shot in-camera as possible makes for footage that drips with hyperrealism.  In Nolan’s hands, the mounted camera becomes a powerful tool of visual storytelling, generating intense POV shots as well as the kind of surreal images that only cinema can conjure— a standout shot finds the camera mounted sideways to the deck of a ship as it rolls over towards the water, but since the deck is fixed to a stationary point within the frame, the sea appears to coalesce into an intimidating wall of water that rises up to swallow the boat wholly.

In a filmography devoted to the study of heroes in action, DUNKIRK offers a very different portrait of heroism— earnest, quiet courage and hopeful resilience that stands in stark contrast to the theatrical superheroics of THE DARK KNIGHT TRILOGY.  In this way, DUNKIRK represents something so much more than the director’s latest technical tour de force.  Rather, it represents an evolution; an artistic maturation of an intensely-cerebral filmmaker at the peak of his powers.  Despite possessing the monumental scope and bid-budget pyrotechnics we’ve come to expect from Nolan, DUNKIRK’s confidence to experiment with narrative structure and concise abstraction make for an unexpectedly intimate and personal experience.  It is, in essence, an art film masquerading as a summer blockbuster.

The reception to DUNKIRK’s theatrical release would reconcile these competing halves of the film’s psyche, with critics like The Hollywood Reporter’s Todd McCarthy hailing it as an “impressionist masterpiece” (5) and audiences flocking in droves to make it the highest-grossing World War 2 film of all time; generating half a billion dollars in worldwide box office receipts.  A slew of accolades and nominations would single out DUNKIRK for its direction, score, and cinematography come awards season, but as of this writing, its final fate in the prestige circuit has yet to be fully determined.

Regardless of its awards season success, DUNKIRK stands as yet another major achievement in Nolan’s intimidating filmography.  Its maximalist production values attain a unique harmony with his minimalistic narrative approach, making for a gripping cinematic experience that stands as one of the best of its genre.  DUNKIRK evidence that, after a lengthy string of mega-successful blockbusters, Nolan seems to be exploring beyond conventional narrative structures and presentations in order to find some kind of intimate, yet universal, emotional truth— a subversive purity that uses modern visual grammar to reinforce timeless artistic ideals.

In a time where critics and audiences alike conflate movies with television and vice-versa as one indistinguishable medium, Nolan’s lifelong quest to preserve the sanctity of the movie house and extoll its superiority to the home theater has never been more urgent.  DUNKIRK is nothing less than a shot across the bow— a slap upside the head that compels us to remember what makes the communal moviegoing experience such a special one.

For all his pop culture significance and ambitious storytelling, DUNKIRK reinforces the idea that Nolan’s greatest legacy of all may be as the man who dedicated his life to saving to the movies, wielding his considerable clout with industry suits and mainstream audiences alike to show that thought-provoking, challenging cinema can be a universal language that is accessible and enjoyable to all.


Nolan: Tenet (2020)

Director Christopher Nolan has spent most of his career imagining and entertaining various apocalypses, manifesting them onscreen via a series of big-budget action spectacles. He probably never imagined that the 2020 release of TENET, his eleventh feature film, would arrive in the midst of a very real one— an all-consuming “end of days” scenario for movie theaters and the medium of cinema, brought about by the devastating, still-ongoing coronavirus pandemic. Indeed, the world that Nolan released TENET into was not dissimilar to one he might have devised for his own work. Early on in the crisis, empty grocery store aisles were a common sight, echoing the famine that brought about a dust-choked existence in INTERSTELLAR (2014). As weeks stretched into months, a collective sense of pulling together to overcome a shared challenge splintered into a bitter divide drawn along political lines, eventually culminating in a failed siege on the US Capitol that — at the risk of making of a reductive comparison to one of the darkest days in American history — was strangely reminiscent of the mass street brawls that marked the climax of THE DARK KNIGHT RISES (2012).

TENET, then, would become not unlike one of his own protagonists: an individual possessed of elite skill and considerable financial resources, tasked with nothing less than saving the world. In this case, the world needing saving was the conventional theatrical experience— the megaplex. When health restrictions ruled out the ability to sit in a dark, enclosed room with hundreds of strangers for several hours, the beloved ritual of moviegoing collapsed overnight. Theaters around the world closed their doors; some, like LA’s cherished Arclight cinema chain, unwittingly shuttering forever. Even as case numbers dropped in the summer, prompting several chains to open back up and test the waters, auditoriums remained empty. Desperate for revenue and starving for a government bailout that wouldn’t come for several more months, theater chains (and studios) came to see TENET as their last great hope. After all, if Nolan’s latest effects spectacle couldn’t lure audiences back to the cinema, what could?

As if saving the cinema wasn’t enough pressure, TENET also faced a challenge that Nolan hadn’t experienced since 2002’s INSOMNIA: making its money back. At $205 million, it wasn’t just Nolan’s most expensive original film, it was also one of the most expensive original films in history (1). Furthermore, it was the most expensive film ever produced featuring a person of color in the lead role. The stakes had never been higher, and theatrical distribution was the only way a budget this high could hope to recoup its expenses. Rather than dump the film directly to streaming services as other studios had done, Warner Brothers repeatedly delayed the film’s theatrical release in hopes that case numbers would improve enough for audiences to feel comfortable returning en masse. This prospect seemed increasingly unlikely as 2020 slumped over the finish line and the numbers of the infected were higher than ever. Unable to wait a year or more (as other high profile releases like FAST 9 or NO TIME TO DIE had done), Warner Brothers had no choice but to put the film in theaters and let it play to an empty house. Thus, it would seem TENET was doomed to be Nolan’s first financial failure before it even had a chance to prove itself.

Nolan could take some consolation in the fact that the film had lived up to his own exacting creative standards. As an intensely-cerebral, time-bending spy thriller, TENET possesses a Nolan-esque pedigree that verges on the quintessential. The ideas contained within had been percolating in Nolan’s mind for twenty years, only manifesting themselves as an actual screenplay in the last six (1). After the comparatively narrow focus of 2017’s DUNKIRK, he harbored a desire to return to the expansive, globe-trotting scope of his previous epics (2). TENET — inspired by the James Bond franchise and other spy thrillers that had so formative an influence on his youth — would suggest itself as an ideal fit. However, this was not to be Nolan’s take on a Bond movie; this was to be, rather, what he described as a “memory” or a “feeling” of the genre. Not a direct homage per se, but a pure intuiting of its mechanics from a broader exposure, with each of his key collaborators bringing their subjective experiences to the table in pursuit of something more original.

Indeed, there’s never been a spy picture like TENET, what with Nolan’s signature manipulation of chronology as a core plot point. It’s easy to make light of the general concept— “Nolan just discovered Avid’s ‘reverse’ button” — but it’s clear that he is after a much more complicated understanding of time as it relates to physics. Despite soliciting guidance from his INTERSTELLAR consultant and Nobel-prize winning astrophysicist Kip Thorne, Nolan is the first to admit that scientific accuracy is not the goal. Nor is TENET about the concept of time travel in the way that pop culture understands it, grounding its central idea in the concept of reverse entropy as a way to assign backwards chronological travel to individual objects rather than our timeline as a whole. The end result is as intellectually elusive as it is viscerally engaging; a two-and-a-half hour embodiment of an expositional character’s exhortation to TENET’s hero: “don’t try to understand it. Feel it”.

Like a true spy film, TENET zips around the world in its chronicle of The Protagonist, a rather cheeky moniker given to John David Washington’s elite field operative who is tasked with preventing a future war his handlers only know about because its detritus is peppering our present. Washington, son of the great Denzel, plays down his celebrity lineage to deliver a star-making turn all his own as the unflappably cool, enigmatic hero. He’s emotionless, but not cold; the embodiment of the word “spook”, he seemingly has no personal life to speak of, having devoted the entirety of his existence to the shadows. When a counter-terrorist operation at a Ukrainian opera house results in his capture, The Protagonist attempts suicide by cyanide capsule to avoid giving up crucial information to his captors. The afterlife that awaits him on the other side is a bit unexpected, to say the least: after waking up in a tanker in the middle of the ocean, the mysterious stranger at his bedside (INSOMNIA’s Martin Donovan) recruits him for a top secret mission with an enigmatic code word: “tenet”. The word is also the name of an equally-secret organization that has been collecting various objects evidencing a state of reverse entropy; that is, they move backwards. The organization believes these objects to be the detritus of a devastating war in the future, and the only way to avert it is for The Protagonist to track down a Russian oligarch named Sator.

Played with an icy intelligence by fellow director (and DUNKIRK performer) Kenneth Branagh, Sator is a nasty piece of work— a cruel, abusive, nihilist with the financial means to satisfy any earthly desire. There’s two things his fortune can’t buy him, however. One is time, as he’s slowly being consumed from within by terminal cancer. The other is love; unable to earn the affection of his wife, Kat, he’s opted for her fear instead. As the film’s chief feminine presence, the 6’3 actress Elizabeth Debicki quite literally towers over her co-stars as Sator’s kept companion. She’s a professional art appraiser who effortlessly glides through high society circles, none of whom have any idea about the bitter abuse she endures for the sake of her son. She proves a valuable partner in The Protagonist’s mission, granting him access to Sator’s inner circle at great risk to her own life. Robert Pattinson’s Neil is another valuable asset to The Protagonist. Cavalier, laidback, and rakishly disheveled, Neil is an elite agent for Tenet who seems a little too well-equipped to follow along with the mind blowing revelations of the mission at hand. His laidback attitude balances rather nicely with The Protagonist’s buttoned-up focus, leading to the warmth of unexpected friendship that counters the aesthetic coldness frequently levied against Nolan by his critics.

As the gargantuan scope of The Protagonist’s mission becomes clear, Nolan’s supporting cast responds in kind, giving the audience a handful of additional characters who each contribute another piece of the central puzzle. Aaron-Tyler Johnson goes full commando as Ives, a brusque, hipster-bearded special ops officer who helps The Protagonist acclimate to the unworldly working conditions of a reverse entropic state. Dimple Kapadia, a prominent Hindi actress making a rare appearance in an American studio picture, plays Priya, a wealthy, Mumbai-based arms dealer who counters the moral bankruptcy of her profession with a warm elegance and matronly demeanor. Nolan mainstay Michael Caine makes a brief cameo as the bespectacled Crosby, a British intelligence officer who conveys early intel about Sator. Jeremy Theobald, the protagonist of Nolan’s lo-fi debut FOLLOWING (1998), also makes a brief cameo in the same sequence, playing a buttoned-up concierge and waiter at Crosby’s dining club.

TENET reunites Nolan with his INTERSTELLAR and DUNKIRK cinematographer Hoyte Van Hoytema, with those prior works becoming a platform upon which to further experiment with large-format filmmaking. The pair switch confidently between 65mm and IMAX film, the latter deployed primarily for action sequences and awe-inducing establishing shots. Also like all of Nolan’s prior films since THE DARK KNIGHT, the mixing of formats would require a constant switching of aspect ratios— 2.39:1 CinemaScope for the 65mm and 1.43:1 for IMAX (further matted to 1.78:1 for home video). Beyond setting a personal record for the most amount of IMAX footage shot at 1.6 million feet (1), TENET doesn’t attempt to expand Nolan’s stately technical aesthetic beyond the reverse conceits required by the narrative, choosing instead to deliver the weighty big-screen experience that we’ve come to expect (and demand) from him. Whether mounted to a crane, a helicopter, or atop the operator’s shoulders, the camera maintains its dogged focus on spectacle and scope as the characters push the story forward. The familiar stone & steel color palette of Nolan’s previous films gives TENET a washed-out, earthy feel, while pops of red & blue are used as visual signifiers of the flow of time— a reference to the Doppler shift, which points out how light moving away from the observer takes on a reddish quality due to longer wavelengths, whereas the shorter wavelengths of incoming light reads as blue.

There’s a case to be made for TENET as Nolan’s ugliest film, which isn’t necessarily a criticism. Though the desaturated color palette certainly doesn’t offer much in the way of vibrant color, the deliberate choice to shoot primarily in the Eastern European city of Tallinn, Estonia (1) imbues the film with a grey, Brutalist quality reminiscent of the utilitarian edifices of the Soviet era. Supplementary locales like Mumbai further add to this feeling, with a sweaty, overcrowded populace laboring underneath the shadow of Priya’s looming residence— a needle-like high-rise built for a single family that serves as a physical embodiment of globalism’s treacherous side effect: runaway income inequality, which has paved the way for a handful of billionaires like Sator to bend society to their exploitative whims. Nolan’s longtime production designer Nathan Crowley uses these unfamiliar locations to his advantage, subsequently fashioning a kind of abstract urbanity that anonymizes their surroundings akin to INCEPTION’s monolithic cityscapes. This particular aspect finds particular resonance in TENET’s climax, which finds The Protagonist and his colleagues undertaking a massive operation in both conventional and reverse chronology amidst the towering ruins of a decimated ghost city that was once Sator’s home.

Though TENET benefits from the expected pedigree of longtime collaborators like Crowley, Hoytema, and Emma Thomas, Nolan’s partner in production as well as life, two other key figures — editor Lee Smith and composer Hans Zimmer — abstain from the proceedings, the former already committed to Sam MENDES’ 1917 and the latter turning Nolan down so as to score Denis Villeneuve’s DUNE (1). Rather than lament the temporary loss of valued colleagues, Nolan would take this opportunity to inject some young blood into the film, replacing Smith with Jennifer Lame and Zimmer with Ludwig Göransson. Known previously for her work on Kenneth Lonergan’s MANCHESTER BY THE SEA and Ari Aster’s HEREDITARY, Lee proves her editing chops are just as capable in the action arena as they are in drama or horror. She deftly handles TENET’s display of reverse entropy in action, helping us make sense of where (and when) we are in sequences that could just as easily be a cumbersome and confusing succession of images.

Göransson further cements his reputation as arguably the fastest-rising star in film composing, creating a rather stunning original score that favors percussion and experimental electronic textures over conventional orchestration. Composed of crashing synth waves, aggressive drums, sirens, and dubstep-adjacent rhythms, the overall effect is not unlike having a bad trip at a warehouse rave… but in a good way. Indeed, the score’s most conventional element is a guitar accent that evokes James Bond without emulating John Barry’s iconic theme. The massive character of Görannson’s sound is even more impressive considering that its orchestral elements were recorded separately by individual musicians working around strict lockdown measures (1). For the character of Sator specifically, Göransson employs an inspired leitmotif that sounds like someone gasping for breath, musically reinforcing his terminal condition as well as the story’s conceit that one must rely on an oxygen mask while in an inverted state. The effect was reportedly achieved through heavy electronic distortion of the original recording, which funnily enough, featured Nolan himself breathing heavily into a microphone (1). To cap things off, Göransson repurposes the score’s unique sound as the backing track to a collaboration with rapper Travis Scott, resulting in an original single titled “The Plan” which boasts the distinction of not only being the first hip-hop song to be used in Nolan’s filmography, but also the first time that the director had used a companion single in conjunction with any of his works (1). Though it’s tempting to imagine what Zimmer might have contributed to Nolan’s latest opus, Görannson’s Herculean efforts keep us from dwelling too much on the elder maestro’s absence.

Beyond his demonstrable mastery of filmmaking’s technical conceits and the visual grammar of epic spectacle, the aura of “timeliness” that envelopes Nolan’s storytelling seems to be rooted in his ability to harness our modern anxieties and transpose them onto a gigantic apocalyptic canvas. Unlike the shock-and-awe, landmark-destruction porn engineered by disaster-movie contemporaries like Roland Emmerich, Nolan’s apocalypses are rather intimate, the sharp end of their spears angled directly at the individual even as the rest of the world hangs in the balance. Even without the threat of coronavirus looming over its release, TENET’s central macguffin — the so-called “algorithm” that Sator seeks to reassemble from pieces sent to our present by mysterious agents from the future — evokes the rapidly-destabilizing nature of the social media age. Just as Sator’s efforts are veiled under the guise of benevolent climate change reversal, so too are the data-based algorithms that build our timelines and newsfeeds being twisted away by bad actors from their original community and relationship-cultivating purposes in order to mislead, disinform, and divide; instead of connection, these algorithms are ultimately fostering isolation, siloing us off into our respective echo chambers and alternative realities. The COVID-19 pandemic has only compounded the problem, subsequently imbuing TENET with an eerie prescience that seems to predict the age of sickness to come. Images of The Protagonist wearing an oxygen mask that serves to sustain him in the face of an inhospitable reverse entropic state unwittingly transcend Nolan’s personal artistic fascinations to coincide with our new masked reality. Likewise, the aforementioned gasping leitmotif that Göransson builds into the score loses its impressionistic storytelling quality as it transforms into a breathless dispatch from hospitals overwhelmed by respiratory failure on an unimaginable scale. Furthermore, the isolating effects of a year in lockdown served to obliterate our collective perception of time, robbing it of meaning while entombing us in a suspended state of waiting— waiting for case numbers to decline, for vaccines to arrive, for our lives to resume. It was almost as if we had been “incepted” into one of Nolan’s films, with the strings that constitute our sense of temporal continuity and progression being manipulated by some unseen puppetmaster for reasons beyond our comprehension.

TENET’s exploration of reverse entropy, the latest snaking tendril in Nolan’s careelong fascination with the manipulation of time, also finds an oblique relevance in the broader cultural obsession with nostalgia. It seems in recent years, the comfort of looking back on supposed “better times” has become a kind of drug, and media conglomerates its dealer. Popular shows like STRANGER THINGS, or reboots/remakes/reimagining of beloved properties from our youth consume the media landscape, delivering continual hits of pleasure and dopamine. In recognizing and profiting off our collective desire to travel back in time, they have effectively weaponized our nostalgia against us, lulling us into willing complacency as the world burns; they keep us jonesing for the next entry, the next installment… the next hit. TENET recognizes this danger, building its backwards-moving story progression around the idea of reverse radiation as a byproduct of nuclear fission. In short, what’s promised to be the next great technological leap forward in civilization — the achieving of cheap, clean, and infinite energy via the replication of the sun’s natural processes on earth — is a double-edged sword that threatens to destroy our past & present even as it promises to save our future. The film repeatedly makes clear the perils of moving backward in time; it could be argued that our desire to do so is rooted in wanting to return to a simpler state than our complicated present allows. What TENET tells us, then, is that the past contains the seeds of said present; nostalgia is a false illusion that, while admittedly pleasurable, ultimately inhibits growth— and as the protagonists of our own stories, forward movement is the only way we will achieve our various objectives.

In the context of Nolan’s own growth, TENET is another prime example of the unique artistic traits that distinguish him as an undeniably compelling voice. The use of entropy as a means of manipulating time speaks to his reputation as a kind of “emotional mathematician”. He roots the fantastical in the practical, turning to physics, science and data as storytelling tools in their own right. At times, TENET is a touch too dense for its own good — I’m no rocket scientist, but I’ve at least been able to follow along with the various plot convolutions of Nolan’s previous films until now. The climatic “temporal pincer movement”, in which one team moves forward in conventional time using intel derived from a second team simultaneously moving backward, requires the closest of attention be paid to fully understand its narrative intricacies. To his credit, Nolan understands the intellectual unwieldy-ness of his setup, and the aforementioned scene in which the Protagonist is urged to “feel” the reverse entropic state instead of understanding it serves as an urging of his audience to do the same. It’s an acknowledgment that TENET is far more enjoyable as a visceral experience than an intellectual exercise, and the film is all the better for it.

This loosened, near-self-aware approach extends to other signature aspects of Nolan’s artistry, such as the functional style of his characters. Though The Protagonist is well-dressed to the extent that anyone wouldn’t hesitate to call him stylish, his sartorial sensibilities are nevertheless muted and utilitarian; they favor shape and structural integrity over color or flash. His clothes speak to his singular focus on his profession and strategic advantage (a key plot point sees him need to wear an expensive designer suit to even gain an audience with Sator). At the same time, another beat sees The Protagonist casually dismiss a Tenet operative’s urging to wear tactical protective clothing before venturing outside in his reverse entropic state. It’s Nolan’s way of telling us to not take things too seriously, and it’s advice directed as much towards himself as it is his audience; a self-regulating bid to prevent TENET from being too obtuse for its own good.

It likely wouldn’t have mattered whether or not TENET was too convoluted or conceptually dense; it was the latest Nolan film, after all, and it would be the biggest hit of the year outside of Marvel. But this wasn’t a normal year. This was the pandemic year— the year of global crisis that affected all of humanity and yet seemed perfectly-engineered to imperil the most personal aspects of our individual lives. To Nolan, champion and defender of the theatrical experience, the forced closure of cinemas across the world was a direct attack against the core of his artistic being. “You either die a hero, or you live long enough to become the villain”, Harvey Dent famously intones in 2008’s THE DARK KNIGHT, and a figure who insists on audiences seeing his work in his preferred viewing experience while putting them at risk of exposure to a deadly, out-of-control virus could certainly be described as something of a villain. As other studios and filmmakers shifted gears, embracing a gradual shift towards streaming that had only intensified in lockdown, Nolan insisted that the cinema was the only place his new film could be seen. As such, the release was delayed no less than three times while case numbers ebbed and surged in relentless waves. In the end, TENET was indeed released theatrically, but only to the handful of theaters that were still open— most of them in international markets that had done a much better job controlling case numbers than the US. Considering all of that, its $363 million worldwake box office take should be impressive, but pales in comparison to Nolan’s billion-dollar track record. A disappointment, even one with several caveats, is still a disappointment, and the occasion of Nolan’s first true professional disappointment is cause for reflection on mainstream filmmaking’s high-stakes, unsustainable addiction to immense returns… which requires ever-higher production and advertising budgets to generate.

As the pandemic began to recede into the rearview of history, TENET has enjoyed the opportunity to be seen by more people, and for its many positive qualities to be embraced. A collection of generous reviews would sing the film’s praises, with The Ringer’s Keith Phillips notably proclaiming that its bungled release actually positioned it well as a future cult favorite (3). Nevertheless, the occasion of TENET’s release came coupled with an unexpected development. In their haste to embrace the newfound flexibility of the streaming age, Warner Brothers announced that their entire 2021 release slate would be available to subscribers on their proprietary streaming platform, HBO Max, the same day the films would hit theaters. In so doing, they ran afoul of the talent they otherwise proclaimed to value, robbing them of significant shares of theatrical revenue they had previously negotiated for. While this development came too late for Nolan to be personally affected, Warner Brothers’ spurning of the theatrical window was nevertheless a bridge too far— and presumably the end of the road with the studio that had been his home for most of his career. He publicly eviscerated their decision, even going so far as to call HBO Max “the worst streaming service”. It remains to be seen whether feathers can be unruffled, and the question of his next move is a rather large one. Whatever his next project may be, it will undoubtedly emerge into a profoundly-changed exhibition landscape; his lifelong quest to “save the movies” will face its biggest challenge yet. From our current vantage point, it’s unclear whether or not he will ultimately succeed, but one thing is certain: in trying, he is ready to risk everything.

Menento Analysis Transcription

Well my brother told me the story verbally before he finished writing it and the screenplay is an extrapolation of his basic idea which I was fascinated by. He told it to me while we were driving cross country between Chicago and Los Angeles and we both decided right away that by far the most interesting way of approaching that concept was subjectively to tell a story in the first person. So he went off to write his short story.

I went off to write the screenplay and my solution to telling the story subjectively was to deny the audience the same information that the protagonist is denied. And my approach to doing that was to effectively tell the story backwards that way when we meet a character we don’t know just like the protagonist how he’s met that person whether he’s even met that person before and whether or not they should be trusted, that kind of thing.

So the story is basically told back which is basically told as a series of flashbacks that go further and further back in time. What’s similar to my brother story as he finally finished it. It’s being published next month actually in Esquire magazine and in the States and the similarity in structure is both the film and the short story deal with repetition and internal echoes and also both alternate between the objective in the subjective.

So in the screenplay what I did as I said I need a way of breaking up the flashbacks so that we separate the scenes in our mind and feel this progression further and further back in time. So what I did is I alternated between these color sequences that are intensely subjective, everything in the color sequences is from caller’s point of view, we’re always in his head at least to begin with. We alternate with these black and white sequences that at least to begin with our objective.

They present a little bit more filmy black and white, it’s grainy the shots are sometimes the overhead a little bit more distance it’s a more objective. We don’t hear the voice of the other end of the telephone; we’re not really in his head. The voice overs and the color sequence in the Black wants it was a very different and the color sequence is the voice of the mind.

It’s the first person it’s very much his thoughts as he’s thinking them in the black and white scenes they sound a bit like interview grabs you know a bit like this kind of interview edited and laid over pictures of him in this room going about his life.

So I wanted to introduce this almost documentary style element at the beginning to give the audience a little bit of information, objective information about how this guy lives his life and what he thinks and to break up these scenes. So the black and white sequences, the chronology is forward, they run forward in time as we realize as we go further and further along with film. As the film progresses the color sequences become a little bit less intensely subjective.

I think towards the end of the film we really start to step outside his head a little bit and start to question some of the things we’ve been told about this character or some other things he’s told us himself. The black and white scenes on the other hand as the movie progresses, they become less and less objective.

We start to get more and more into his head as he exists in this my tower. And in fact when the black and white and the color scenes actually meet towards the end of the movie and I think these two perspectives, the objective, the subjective of the backwards running narrative in the forwards running narrative they actually meet at what is the end of the movie chronologically I guess you could call it the middle of the movie.

It’s confusing because I don’t think pictorially diagrammatically. OK you have the beginning of the film here. The best way to draw it is as a hairpin like that, that’s basically the end of the movie, this stuff is the black and white stuff, this is color and this is running backwards as a series of jumps and what we do is we cut tween the two the whole way through, so we alternate scene here scene, scene here and here and they meet towards the end of the film.

But then within this you have flashbacks to a different timeline which is actually even earlier somewhere around there. Also within this you have flashbacks to an earlier time, some in there.

So I guess you could use the heap in shape to represent the bulk of the film. With the black and white with the color meeting in the last reel, the end of the film being sort of their after it turns really color and kind of lead us into the beginning of that proceeding scene.

But you have other material that actually precedes the beginning of the black and white scenes and the gap between the beginning of the black and white scenes and this long term memory stuff, some of which is color some of which is black and white. That gap is unspecified. The lead character because of his particular condition he can never know how long that’s been he’s cut loose in time effectively.

So we never wanted to specify for the audience. We imply a length of time to it because it’s the time in which he’s had these tattoos put on, he’s been living this life so forth. So that gap to me is where the most interesting ambiguity of the film is the end you know we never wanted to step fully outside of his head and you know specify too many of these things in terms of an objective reality because to me one of the interesting things about the film and what we were trying to do is essentially present an idea of the tension between our subjective view of the world, the subjective way in which we have to experience life and then our faith in an objective reality beyond that.

And most movies present a quite comfortable universe where we’ve given an objective truth that we don’t get in everyday life, it’s one of the reasons we go to the movies. In this film, we don’t want to do that, we don’t want to step outside his head. We wanted to present the audience with that problem effectively and say ‘he can’t ever get outside his head and recognize what the objective truth is’ So I think the audience at the end of the film is left to make certain of the same judgments that he is the invited to believe or disbelieve certain elements of what is supposed to have happened in his life much as he is.

And I think the way that we try and focus on this end of the film and making that as extreme as possible is by taking this subjective view on this objective view and effectively having them meet at the end, so that what we achieve is still subjective but with enough objective information built into it that we start to question the point of view that we’ve been given for the whole film.

Well within the hip and structure, we have different elements of his past life that we want to introduce and we the way we divided them is that some of them are presented in black and white and those are the ones that relate to a parallel story that runs parallel to his life. But it’s a story of another character who has the same condition. And that is all presented chronologically and cuts into the black and white scenes not into the color scenes.

The memories of his longer time life, his own life the life within his own head therefore also to me you know that the subjective experience these sort of memories of his wife, these images of his wife are all shot in color and I will present in the color sequences not in a black and white sequences, so we keep those separate.

But as you may have noticed towards the end of the movie there is a certain amount of joining of these images and confusion of these images and some of the things we’ve only seen it in color are presented in black and white and vice versa. So certainly once again we’re trying to basically merge the subjective and the objective, the memory versus the sort of narrative that he has in his head of this other this other character.

So the other thing we want to be doing in the end in terms of the way in which we mix images and reinterpret images is to suggest the complex relationship between Imagination and Memory. And we see him towards the end, we present certain images that we’ve seen from his past life within a different context and in a different context they have slightly different meaning and I think the suggestion there is that he like all of us is able to manipulate the meanings of certain memories or manipulate his own interpretations of certain memories according to his present circumstance.

Yes the way in which we cut between these two things is will take a color scene and then we’ll cut to a black and white scene that’s shorter in length and then we come back to the colors here and we basically, as these are going essentially backwards in time, we sort of leap frogging and we wind up repeating the beginning of a scene at the end of another scene vice versa. And in that way we use repetitions of certain parts of scenes to clear the audience in to where they are chronologically.

So essentially what we’re always doing is we’re beginning every scene with something a cliffhanger, something of an unusual situation or a memorable image and then in our later seen we’re explaining how that situation has been arrived at and that’s the rhythm of the film over the entire course of the movie. So it’s in a way taking a familiar cinematic rhythm. You know the rhythm of the cliffhanger orthe question and then the answer and it’s presenting that as an alternating rhythm the whole way through the film.

Yeah, the black and white stuff is all derived from a forward running sequence. So if you take these individual Black and White sequences, they run forwards. If you stick them together they actually overlap in the same way that the backwards scenes overlap. It’s not quite so obvious when you’re watching the movie but you know it begins with him sort of shaving his thigh and answering the phone and everything and in fact these actions overlap.

So there is a suggestion that in fact and it is the case that you can stick our scenes together and achieve one sort of long scene effectively. And that episodic structure was one that I wanted to employ because the overlapping flashbacks of the color sequences for complex structure, the black and white stuff is actually pretty simple to follow because it follows the basic episodic structure was very familiar with me from watching T.V.

You know it’s like you break something up with T.V. commercials, very easy to just keep following a very simple forward progression in this case it’s him on his own in a room speaking on a telephone, so it’s a very simple sequence of forward progression and it’s not too difficult as we return to it to just tap into it and say OK this is where we are we’re back here on familiar ground we’re just going to get a bit more information about you know who he is and what he’s discussing on this telephone call.

The overlaps become shorter as the film progresses because the assumption is that it seems to work that the audience gets into the kind of rhythm they begin to understand that the structure is backwards. We in fact begin the film with a literally backward scene at the head; I mean we’re literally running reverse action. The rest of the film is forward action but in a series of backward steps, it’s kind of you know one step forward two steps back the whole way through.

But at a certain point those repetitions are able to be a little bit shorter because the audience isn’t rhythm and then there is a point at which in certain scenes we actually don’t achieve the same repetition we actually make an illusion. You know we make a complete jump the same way in a conventional movie they will do that. You know when you reach a point with two scenes so obviously connect chronologically so you don’t have to explain the chronological relationship.

So there’s a point sort of midway through the film where we begin to do that a little bit. But then we come back to the repetitions because some of the repetitions later in the film I think are important for their own sake, not just for explaining to the audience where we are but also for hammering home this in notion that it’s the context of a scene, it’s the context within which a particular action happens like there’s a point at which he’s searching for a pen and he’s trying to write some down to remember something and all the rest and we see that once so we don’t really understand and we see it again has a rather different meaning.

So there’s repetition start to take on a more substantial role I think in the narrative other than just orienting in time they actually start to suggest the way in which the narrative context in which a particular action happens is changing what that action represents. And that relates once again to his subjective view of what he’s doing in the room and how that’s actually affected by what’s going on around him which becomes I think very important to the overall theme of the movie.

At the beginning of the movie I was looking for a way into this structure, the way into this storytelling. So what I wanted to do was to show something in reverse to suggest that the backwards movement of the film. But the way in which the Polaroid is used through the film is as a replacement for short term memory.

It seemed like showing a Polaroid picture on developing, showing the picture on developing and showing this information being lost. It seemed like a very useful way of suggesting the problem that he’s having to deal with which is you know this faulty short term memory and this information dribbling away and in fact the opening shot is you know it’s a Polaroid of what that body.

I think the significance of that becomes clear later in the movie in terms of how I was interested in looking at his relationship of his perception of revenge versus the notion of whether it has any objective reality or has any value outside his out head. So this achievement of revenge, the satisfaction of that body, this gruesome image fading and actually I’m developing and losing itself from his mind.

That actually is pretty much of the whole movie; in fact you can just watch opening shot you to the movies. Thank you.


Author Cameron Beyl is the creator of The Directors Series and an award-winning filmmaker of narrative features, shorts, and music videos.  His work has screened at numerous film festivals and museums, in addition to being featured on tastemaking online media platforms like Vice Creators Project, Slate, Popular Mechanics and Indiewire. To see more of Cameron’s work – go to directorsseries.net.

THE DIRECTORS SERIES is an educational collection of video and text essays by filmmaker Cameron Beyl exploring the works of contemporary and classic film directors. ——>Watch the Directors Series Here <———

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IFH 706: Composing the Biggest Hollywood Blockbusters of All-Time with Klaus Badelt

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Alex Ferrari 2:02
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 2:06
And this episode of the podcast, I have a guest who has been a composer in some of the biggest movies like Pirates of the Caribbean Curse of the Black Pearl, Gladiator equilibrium K 19. My guess I got to talk about all that about how you actually work with guys like Khan Zimmerman, how you actually develop soundtracks for these movies. You know how he actually got into that, because he actually was a film a completely different background. And we also don't talk about film hub, which is another avenue for filmmakers, again, it's all about this podcast is about is all exploring all these different avenues, talking about where the film industry is headed. And just hearing all these crazy stories, but how we all got here, and some of the crazy things that we've seen on set. So without further ado, with guest Klaus puddle.

Klaus Badelt 2:49
Yeah, I you know, it was a bit odd, like I had my first like tech startup at 18. And then assault that with 25 and turned around 180 degrees and then did music. And then I, you know, mostly film music, and then in Germany, and then I went on, I think, like 97, likely. So I went on to world Hollywood on vacation and got stuck here ever since.

Dave Bullis 3:17
So what kind of sort of did you have?

Klaus Badelt 3:20
That was already a tech startup there was like in at the time when they didn't call it startup yet to actually make money, and profit. And in order to hire the next guy. And they were writing software that's that at the time I because a part of that decision was that the German music universities didn't take me. So I didn't manage to convince them with my entry exam performance. So I did not, I'm just going to do the easiest stuff. Good stuff I know anyway, and that's a computer stuff. And then only a few years later, I then said, Let's This is good. Dinner was a very successful company. And I can feel it. Let's do music.

Dave Bullis 4:04
You know, it's so true with a lot of these startups is all about, it's all about future earnings or potential value. Have you ever seen a TV show Silicon Valley?

Klaus Badelt 4:14
Yeah, of course. Exactly. It's all true.

Dave Bullis 4:17
Yeah, it's amazing. I have friends, you know, who work out in Silicon Valley. And they swear by the show, they go it is absolutely so true to life. Where, you know, somebody makes, like you and I make a piece of software for a weekend in our in our apartment or, you know, dorm room, and suddenly, you know, we're selling it on Monday for you know, a couple million couple, you know, maybe even more, and it has it doesn't really have an audience or you know what I mean? It does it's just it's just like this theory piece of software that hasn't really proven itself yet. But the potential value is there.

Klaus Badelt 4:51
Yeah, no, it's, it's be creating a spin. I mean, we're going basically backwards here, but I spent the last year quite a bit in Silicon Valley and and Learn how they do things, they're not some of the techniques. And it's great though, it's great how to run a company I learned so much can believe. Compare this to La companies or European companies, how they operate is a very different different way of running things. And, I mean, it has to do with why I'm doing this, this startup as well in the film business to bring in different dimensions, even the way of looking at it, and helping to, you're aiming at like redefining, like a whole industry with us. Because our industry, you're in the film business doesn't really work. That way, you know, oriented with metrics, seeing that, you know, you operate fast and not out of your guts, but have data to back up what you actually do. And that's actually very refreshing to me. Now, as a, as a composer, where you it's interesting, it's quite a bit similar, even though it sounds like it would be just emotional when you're right and just intuitive. And that's true, but at the same time, now, I'm really getting carried away, stop me anytime. But if when you write a theme that say for movie, you are not a musician, you're a filmmaker, right? You you, you have the first five minutes or eight minutes, if you're lucky to introduce the characters, you have to be very careful about the arc telling the story you make people hopefully love the character. So they actually go along with whatever crazy story happens after. And there's a lot of, if you want to analytics about it directly, you know, like a script, they have the X you shaping a something and at the same time, you have to be very creative and emotional about. So this is a great balance. I work a lot with like songwriters. And when it comes to scores, they you can tell the songwriter to adjust or you know you to react or to, to, to tell the story that tell the story in just their absolute space. And that Afghans end in a disaster anyway, but that's different story. But you know, you i you end up being holding the hand and actually making it work to picture you like the director of, of music in a way. So that's shows me every time that it's quite different. Writing music to movies is quite different to writing music. And there's lots of analytics comes into play.

Dave Bullis 7:36
You know, what, what are some of the things you've noticed, just working from Germany to working in here? Because you always hear a lot about, you know, how were you know, America is always compared to Europe, both both in a good way and a bad way. So, what are some of your thoughts? I mean, have you noticed that you do like, what better working over here? I mean, because you know, if you if you were to stereotype Americans working, it's usually you never you never get a day off. You burned out your all your all your vacation days. And you know, you never stop answering emails on your phone.

Klaus Badelt 8:09
That's pretty much me. So obviously, I like it, but much better here. Now. I mean, look, I've been here for 20 minutes, not 20 years. And yeah, I think I can compare and also traveled quite a bit because of the movies. I went a lot to China, to Europe, different European countries, which are quite different. Anyway, the UK is very different to France, very different to Germany, when it comes to movies, but also to like, companies and their attitude and people. I mean, there's a reason I'm, I'm here and I'm staying here, and I live here is I do feel this lots more. I wouldn't call the cliche freedom, but it's much more open what you do look, I would have not have a career. If it wasn't, you know, I came here I had no basically education. And when it comes to music, and you can do whatever you like, if it was as long as you make, you know, make people feel comfortable, and you do a good job. And that's a pretty unique situation, I think in general, whether it's in, in tech or in film or music, but especially in in music maybe and film where you know, it's it's very hard to talk about music right to judge music, you have your opinion, I have my opinion everyone has. But what does the audience do? Everyone is different. So there's no measurement, no picture, you can see if it looks, you know, we can measure it, you can look at the frames, they look, move that visual effect of it over to the left, but in music is really hard. So you have to have that trust. And I think people here are much more generally open. You can totally scurried off quickly and then that's it. But you have much more of a chance, I think to do thing. And yeah.

Alex Ferrari 9:57
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Dave Bullis 10:07
Oh, I'm sorry, I was just gonna agree, you know, you know, as we as we talk about your music career, so at what point did you realize, hey, you know, I want to start composing musical scores for movies, and you've done some video games, too. So what point did you know that this is what you wanted to do?

Klaus Badelt 10:25
I always did more movie than music. I mean, I had my first I didn't have a keyboard first, I had like, a film camera first, and I shot some short movies with the neighbor's son and mother hen or something like that. But so I was felt for movies, but I really never knew that I wanted to do it. I, I, you know, like I said, I started with something very different. I wanted to but I was not like, I, I think part of fit was that I wasn't sure if I could do it. And even when I arrived here, and I sit here in front of, you know, the picture and then look at it like, wow, that's really hard. I mean, I've done this for years. But every time it's really, it's, for me, it's really hard to create music. And to be creative. It's really like, like a writer friend once said, it's like, you have to pour gasoline all over yourself and burn it. And when you feel a pain, then you actually start really creating. It's a bit like that for me. And I'm not alone, I think with that. So yeah, the process is as difficult as it is very rewarding when it works, but it takes a long time to get there.

Dave Bullis 11:43
So, obviously, I want to ask more about that. Because I think that that is a really cool way to put it when you start feeling that pain. And that's sort of the way you create. So if we were to sort of take that and dig a little deeper, do you think that the whole like starving artist, you know, create constant sort of pain? Do you think that if

Klaus Badelt 12:04
I noticed quite a few different types, when I worked also with directors and ultimate, also composers that it's really hard to strike the perfect balance that you are critical enough to create good stuff, but not question yourself to the level of pain that you cannot actually do in your way and beyond way of creating something good, because you might see it, and I think it has to do with experience. But also of course with character you can get get rid of. So it's it's this healthy balance where you don't be too full of yourself, but also be confident. I always say it's like, what you need is a lot of character, but no ego. And that's very difficult, right? So you have to bring in this, this profile and make it very unique, find the unique voice when you create, but don't bring in your own own personality when it comes to actually how to do the job. Because film is definitely teamwork. And that's actually the essential multimedia event, right? You have sound you have picture you have the actress you have, you know, the music, when all comes together. So it's been always the teamwork, which is what I like about film and I've never been the type who like says like, Oh, give me give me the picture. That needs to be the tape, right? Give me the tape and don't talk to me for six weeks, but always been always had like various studios where I move close to where the director is I had no, I have placed here mobile plays when the Warner Brothers and I sit next to the director, if they they're actually edit there or in our or in, in, in Beijing, where we have to go wherever the director is I want to be and right next to the editorial and, and talk not about music, but like just, you know, absorb what they do to you. So you're part of that creative team and to understand I'm often on the set to when they understand where but it is the director actually wants to get out of it, how he sees that arc of the scene, the emotional arc, etc. So you know, you're part of that. And you just have to express that in music, and the edit so to express this with, you know, that the Edit, but it's the same work.

Dave Bullis 14:23
So, when you're on some of these movie sets, and you know, you're getting that feeling and you're not really thinking about the music, you're more ingrained in in what everything's sort of like the minute you're engraved in the process of you know of how it's getting done and everything. Do you when you do go back to that to start composing the music for this like let's use Pirates of the Caribbean for instance. When you start going back and creating that music, you're just drawing from all that experience of being on set of you know, me talking the director of you know of what exactly that Knowledge is what the scene is about, or you know, or the sequence is about. We're just about the whole sort of underlying current of the whole movie.

Klaus Badelt 15:08
Yeah, actually, absolutely, yes. I couldn't agree more. I mean, maybe pose wasn't the best example, because they had virtually no time to create it. But I know what it it was a good example in that way, because you have to then trust your instincts, and improvise. And then it comes to your, what do you what do you do without thinking? But ultimately, it's a lot you're right. It's a lot of yeah, if you want experience to look, I have a lot of young writers who virtually want to prove themselves and I think I have to, and that's true, you have to but you know, the end here, this course, which all sounds like a pot pourri of stuff, because they want to show off, they don't really actively or consciously do this. But it happens like that. And when you make music for film, you're your subordinate to the whole multimedia event to the whole story. You don't, you don't want to not dominate. I mean, there's strong music you have to write off. And so yeah, you have to just be Be careful in the in the give and take.

Dave Bullis 16:11
So, so class, let me ask you this, when you're, you know, online, and maybe you're, you know, look just looking around at, you know, different websites and stuff. Have you ever come across some of the like the stock music websites?

Klaus Badelt 16:24
Oh, yeah, sure, of course,

Dave Bullis 16:26
What are your thoughts on that?

Klaus Badelt 16:32
It's like, I don't even do demos of you know, in this industry, you have this like, where directors asked like a handful of companies for demos. And it's not that I'm like, arrogant enough to say, like, I'm older, I don't do demos, it's about I don't believe in that process, because it's no process. It's a shot in the dark and something sticks. And then you don't know anything about the director, composer relationship, how it could develop, or if the composer understands your movie at the director. And so these sites are Yeah, of course, if you, I, I'm a writer, I always need a picture to work against, I need to be the the filmmaker. I admire that if you can actually write like, Hey, I imagined this kind of picture on here I go, I really, I don't think I've ever done that. So it's it must be a very hard job actually to do that. And as a director, of course, you you want that work relationship more than you want the music, the best directors I had, while I like to work with the best ways of working together was always a director where you where you do not want to show off where you don't need to. You don't talk about music. You don't talk about what instrument you would like God, that's actually the second secondary, but that's the output you don't want the input to talk about what it is not, symbolically what it is what's supposed to happen here. What's the emotional content? What What's that scene for? What's the moment for? How do they feel? And how do you want the audience feel. And by the way, when you write music, then you often as a director, also notice this the suddenly get into like the, the weaknesses of the movie, by putting music on it or, or writing to picture, you suddenly realize issues in editing and issues. And if we're not clear about that moment here, what do you actually want to say? So music kind of crystallizes, that gets takes it outside. And that's music as a filmmaker, right? As a character as a, as a part of the movie, not music, put in a slap on top, which sometimes works too, but it's not. That's not the same.

Dave Bullis 18:59
Yeah, like music as a as a character of of itself. You know, it's like the soundtrack of a level of a life because, you know, when you're watching a movie, it's the most interesting points of that part of that character's life, you know, and it's like, this is the soundtrack of your life. It means so yeah. So clouds. Let me ask you this, when you're watching what movie Have you seen recently, where you have just been like, sort of blown away by the soundtrack?

Klaus Badelt 19:26
I have to admit, I I'm the guy with the smallest score collection right? I have. My inspiration doesn't really come from move film music. And that's for several reasons. A when you actually work you, you inadvertently rip off and you don't want that sound in your head. You don't even know where it comes from. I mean, I rip myself off of project I did three years ago and realize much later like, Oh my God, that's the same thing. I can't believe I wrote this again. I literally had happened.

Alex Ferrari 19:57
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Klaus Badelt 20:06
And nobody told me and nobody noticed, obviously, but I, I get my inspiration from very different kinds of music. So I'm the Roman to ask if you inspired by that kind of with this off, if if it always movies, it would be hard for me to point out to is, but these were non traditional composers, right. You know, we have too many guys who want to sound like Jerry Goldsmith, or you know, it's like this, this idea which is over. And you need to develop new things and still serve the film. And you get this when Oh, when I listened to a Brian Eno score that to me, well, not all of them, but there are some which were like, Oh, this is interesting, I would have not done it like this. And I probably will never be able to do like that. But that gives you inspiration. I have lots of playlists of songs, though. And classical music and then electronic music, or why keep as an inspiration, like to rolling in my in my head and in the background often just to where I get something from.

Dave Bullis 21:13
So, so when you when you actually ripped off your own score, was it air through air after the movie had come out? You're like, oh my god, did I write that I have that I already wrote that I write that.

Klaus Badelt 21:21
I was the years after. Yeah, it was a TV show, actually, you know, a rip myself off. And I had no idea. And nobody at the time told me and it wasn't like that bad. But I was the same tune. And it felt great at the time twice. I mean, for me, like, like, Oh, I did it. Look, it sounds great. Oh, my gosh, I really, this is good. It works. And I had done this before. And it's big. I don't know it happens in a adult you don't want to. That's the last thing you want. And last thing I want this to sound like something I did before the last thing I want to sound is like someone else who did something which for some it but it's really hard sometimes.

Dave Bullis 21:59
Yeah, it is, you know? So speaking about, you know, just of your process and everything like that, you know, what was the, you know, the absolute best experience that you've had making a score to a film?

Klaus Badelt 22:16
And it's so many I mean, there are a few would like, but I think often is the indie films, which are more you have an opportunity to be you have more integrity, it's easier to have integrity in terms of collaboration and, and there's less opinions out there and Hollywood, there's a lot of different opinions. And it's great to work like that. But it's easy then to like know, take the edge off everywhere. And then at the end, you sound the end up with something mediocre. Because nobody dares. It's, it's dangerous, right. So I had some films like I remember I remember, like life changing was like when I did my first film in China where the director Shankar Agha did me know, let me let me write a little bit put me up in a hotel in the lake to enjoy and write and I thought I came up with something, okay. And he listened to it and nodded and said, Okay, let me make some phone calls. I think I'm going to, if you don't mind sent you around the country for the next few weeks, and you just absorb whatever we show you. So you get a much deeper feel for where we are with all this. Yeah, basically like a 4000 year history lesson, compressed in a few weeks of sightseeing. And that was part of this whole process that went in I think if I look back, I can hear that the I was most inspired and that took me five months there and I remember when I came back here to Hollywood people asked me so where do you move to China? Like no, it just wrote a movie but no movie but i i That was like life changing moment where you just want to be as good as the director. And you know you'll never be you know, achieve that but you want to contribute and there's a deep Yeah, just deep inspiration. That was also a project where we never talked about me I visited him a few times so traveled to China. We met for a week or two and I don't think a single time we even looked at the film The first few times we discussed his life and his his symbolism in every shot and in every not short but in every scene what he envisioned for this and and you just learn and be taught politics he taught all kinds of things. And then you prepared to to give I think that makes a good director right to who is just interested in getting the best out of your creation instead of trying to squeeze you into a certain track.

Dave Bullis 24:57
So what did that what that what else do You went on this, you know, this sort of history lesson this 4000 year history lesson and, and in a week or two, you know, we did when you got out, you know, and they finally got back and they asked you to compose this piece. What was the outcome after that? I mean, what did you was it a success?

Klaus Badelt 25:17
Um, yeah, it was a big movie there, it was called the promise in China was one of the very first, you know, was 10 years ago. So it wasn't one of the very first like, big effects movies and, and the biggest compliment, I mean, you can hear the themes, I had so many inspired themes, and they, and they all did something for the movie at the right time. In the biggest complaint was like, look, I mean, I was this German guy, or European guy who lives in Hollywood and does a Chinese movie. So what you expect me I asked him at the time, so I'm not the guy who writes your age Chinese movie, it was all in Chinese, of course, right? And he's like, no, no, and he wants people to tap with the music to open up the film and the understanding about the film, to a greater audience to the audience. And that's exactly, okay, well, so I absorbed a lot of these Chinese instruments in history and stories and dances had like, I was in museums and mountains, you know, they perform dances to me, you know, listen to ancient songs, and all these different minorities, and absorbed all this and put this in, but not to, like, rip it off not to, you know, use this as a superficial color and impose myself on it, but to really like, you know, work it in and have flavors of this in there. And there was some European flavors in there, and of course, Western flavors in there. So that was so satisfying for me as a process. And you can, you can hear this in the inspiration. It's, there's something new creative, you know, when I heard some people told me that this is one of their favorites course, and not and they didn't know the story. So we can you can always hear how inspired you are.

Dave Bullis 27:07
You mentioned about the indie films. And I, you know, earlier on, I mentioned Pirates of the Caribbean, you know, I imagined just for the sheer thrill of it, because Pirates of the Caribbean, no matter when it would come out is going to be one of the biggest films of the year, you know, you know, from the first one to the fifth one, I think that came out a year or two ago. You know, it's just the fact that it's the pie, you know, it's a huge, huge movie. It's got Johnny dept. You know, it's got, you know, a named director of gore, Gore Verbinski, but if I could actually talk, and, and so I imagine, you know, when that when that comes out, I mean, I mean, I can only imagine a class where you could say, Hey, listen, you know, you see, he's telling anybody, friends, family, whoever, hey, you know, Pirates of the Caribbean that's coming out. You know, I did music for that movie. Because everybody instantly knows Oh, my God, that's Johnny Depp.

Klaus Badelt 28:02
Right, of course. I mean, it's always great to have something where, you know, your your, your family asked me so what do you do next? And you talk about the movie, and they're like, Oh, I never heard of it. But in then there's one. You know, there's the occasional film we're like, oh, yeah, that's in everybody's mind and theaters and certainly one of the music pieces but more known but I don't know look at me I mean, I'm proud of it, of course, but torquing this down, but I it's so many different things. And I always like to it's so easy to fall into this Hollywood trap to to like what you do too much. And Korea was never an option to me to be in the center of my own attention. Just did one thing after another and honestly, I never really thought about like, like moving here. And I was one thing I never would have thought about. I was on vacation, I guess. I don't know. Maybe I can do this. Of course I loved it. And I had the passion for it. But I didn't never expected it to happen. I never expected and the same thing with Unity, right? So I had right after pirates, for example, I didn't. Then the last thing I would want to do is to do 2345 17 Make it a TV show. But instead I remember at the time where I used the opportunity then to do movie with Tecton or do a movie with Wolfgang Petersen to do a movie with Shang chi again, all you know what I just said like went to China five months. My agent was like, pulling his hair and it's like, what are you doing? This is like the moment you put you can your career. Like it's not that I'm not interested. But that is exactly what to do right now, because of this enables me to do really interesting stuff. I've done a lot of French movies, nobody cares, or here in America. They don't travel but just so amazingly satisfying that someone will hear the word ultimately and then you get another job.

Alex Ferrari 29:56
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Klaus Badelt 30:05
Based on something you did, which nobody would have given you an A did suddenly comedy in New York. Wow. And what it would have hired me for New York style comedy. Because the Pirates of the Caribbean but they did that because they're heard, I don't know PDD Kaline in Paris when they went on vacation or you know, had a meeting and like, Who is this and what this German guy amazing, let's do that. So this is, I think if you constantly do good work and try to not really re Have you always reinvent yourself and try not to repeat too much, because everybody wants that, like in other play that put your music and pretend and say, I want exactly this. Don't change the note. This works great. Can you do this again? That's how often you get an assignment here is that you are in the temp and sorry, but the last thing I want to do is, if I was director would ask the composite, right, exactly. Same thing again. That's like, so not inspiring for anyone. And you probably can hear this and you can hear sorry, but you can hear composer would mention names of films definitely where you? You're like, well, I know exactly what happened in the cutting room, how they asked the composer what to do, and he can hear it. That's not what I'm interested in.

Dave Bullis 31:20
You know what I found that in class, I found that in the latest Star Wars films. I like Star Wars. I like the idea behind it. I mean, I come from it from more of a writing perspective. Because if I if you asked me what I what I am made out of everything, you know, don't be enough if that's why whenever someone says they're a jack of all trades, Klaus I kind of go well, everyone has to specialize in something, everybody, you can have knowledge of everything. But everyone at the end of the day, everyone specializes in something that brought because that's what brought you to the dance. You know, you have you know, there's one thing that you do well, so for me, it's writing. And when I'm watching the store with the new ones, you know, and I'm sitting there, I just go, I just feel like everything is exactly the same. It's the same beats, it's the same shots. It's the same music. It's so repetitive.

Klaus Badelt 32:16
Yeah, I mean, this is what now we're getting into what I think is a bit of a problem of Hollywood and a serious problem of Hollywood, the last few years, especially that we are not afraid to tell a story. But yeah, in a way, like it's risky now to tell new stories. It has to be a franchise. And then you do that. As long as there's a lot of people paying tickets for that. How can they be wrong, right? And then it's okay when we have to all create new keep the lights on and keep the industry going. It's just not so much what I'm I know, I did too. I was about to say I never did sequels. I did two sequels, I have to admit, but when it was I made sure that if possible, this was like okay, there's a friendship by the new director a new like a restart or something like you know, a fresh angle at something. Like when I did my first horror film I told the director I don't like horror. Irish it should I'm not a big horror fan. Sorry. But so why are you asking me and then we started talking it turns out he neither so we want to do something no genre but something different. And there was no okay was Well, I wasn't really whorfin But I guess Constantine was a lot of like, dark dark stuff and then ended up with almost like if a French impressionist film score. You know, I think that's interesting stuff happens and and we're a bit we've become a bit afraid of, of doing this year. And that's why indie film can often be this way you try out things and then they become mainstream. I personally think that indie is the new mainstream Anyway, look, the last few years last 10 years, and it's been always indie films, winning or being nominated for for all kinds of awards. But and there's always that commercial blockbuster thinking where you will have to do another sequel of another prequel of another TV show. I know I'm just coming off a film which has like it's the fourth installment but but there was a new idea again in there. This quarter. I think I can talk about is still in the making. It's called the ocean Ocean's eight. You know as the ocean's 11 idea on a very different cast and a very different fresh ideas. It's an all female cast and fantastic fun in it. And it's like smart, right? So that I can live with. And it's a good mix of being okay as commercially very viable. But same time. There's a lot of new and fresh ideas and there's a twist in it. And you can talk about, tell the twist, and work on the twist.

Dave Bullis 35:17
Yeah, I actually have heard of Ocean's eight, you know, the all female, you know, based upon the George Clooney movie, Ocean's 11, but instead of being all males or females, and so, I mean, when you do something like that, you know, and you're sort of brought onto this franchise? Is there any expectations at all? I mean, because really, I mean, what I mean by that is, do they are they saying like, Hey, listen, Klaus, you know, if you listen to Ocean's 1112, or what have you, this is what they did here. And we want something kind of similar. And is there anything like that?

Klaus Badelt 35:53
Yes, and no, look, I mean, they will have, they could have easily asked the the old composer to do that if they want that same thing again. But there's a reason they didn't. But there's also the expectations of the audience that you remember when working on Miami Vice, right? You the audience has a certain expectations or expectation and you as a director or a film as a compositor, you have to not cannot ignore the audience, you should never do that. You play with that? No, no. And my advice was very hard, because the movie was very dark and very different than what you know, the TV show was 30 or 20 years before that, but And here too, it's slightly different, but it plays with it. And actually, to me, that's fun that that's okay, that's smart. That's, that's fulfilling the expectation and hopefully, adding the twist to it. So it's interesting and fresh again. That's fun. That's not like, Okay, I have to do Pirates of the Caribbean times 17. And they want exactly the same thing.

Dave Bullis 36:57
You know, I actually really enjoy the oceans movie. So I mean, I'll check out Ocean's eight. But, uh, yeah, it's kind of like, again, you know, I was saying, I totally get what you're saying about the indie films. It's kind of like, you know, writing you know, it's a it's like composing itself. You know, we are on an indie film, you can, you have a lot more freedom as we you know, but when you're on a big blockbuster, you know, your freedom is kind of constricted. But when you again, when you're telling people about it, you're like, Well, hey, listen, I just did music for excetera they like, oh, wow, I actually, you know, me like, holy crap. Johnny Depp. Sure, I keep going back to Johnny Depp. But he's, he's a very good example.

Klaus Badelt 37:33
Say, you don't have that obsession with Johnny Depp. I like that. No, but I know what you mean. Yeah, no, it's this Exactly. Like it's so tempting. But again, I mean, I remember this when my mom asked me, so I just came out of the meeting with Steven Spielberg and, and he kind of ripped half of the score apart on Gladiator. And we're like, gosh, this was one of the hardest days of my life at the time. And, and I tried to tell a little bit like, look, mommy just did this. And she's like, Okay, what, do you eat enough? So, you know, it grounds you she didn't care. And you you get back to like, okay, you know, what, you need to bypass all this hype about yourself and about others and I think just get to work so I'm not really impressed. Ultimately, with when it comes to celebrities, it's only I'm impressed when, you know, they're getting good sales like when they actually deliver him and when you work with them and you realize and understand why they are who they are. Then it gets very, very interesting. There's some directors out here new work with Tom Cruise. So then it's you understand you know, where that where the success comes from? If you have to have a chance to work well but but again, only an indie it's it's as refreshing as as taxing to your creativity. And again, you can you have more freedom to get out of the no to out of the box thinking. And you can see now that the audience is really tired of the same kind of Game of Thrones and Batman's and stuff, right? They, yeah, they see it, they watch it, but you know, we know they did a lot of gather a lot of data about this too. And not only there felt it, but there is data that people are want more variety. Now that you have the internet you watch much more and you have theoretically access to much more. You don't have these gatekeepers because of shelf space right before you could go to Blockbuster only and they had limited shelf space so you they couldn't put up everything. Or the theaters could only take on one movie night or something. But now you have all this plus the unlimited resources of the internet. So you should be able to watch much more and more more people want that.

Alex Ferrari 39:58
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Klaus Badelt 40:07
They expect like everything to be available and that's a big chance of indie I think that you have now the chance of being successful without being broadcast style popular. That means you don't have to have the millions of millions of viewers or tickets sold or something. Without that your movies a flop, I worked on many flops, I know exactly how hot my pressure is read a and how limiting can be, but now you can create something and you make this foreign or maybe a smaller segment of an audience or have more integrity it's a little bit like music, like used to you have to you had to go to a recording studio, you had to use that two inch machine, that tape machine and it was all very expensive. You had to pay the 1000s of dollars per day. So you had to have all this machine would pay for this and you know the industrial these days are like for a few years now you can actually write you know, I've heard the best productions coming from your laptop of some I don't know Pro Tools or whatnot on it and, and it's really great stuff you don't need add on it sounds amazing. Isn't the talent good ideas. And we have this now in movies too, right? That's the big chance of indie we have now digital production pipelines make it very, very cheap for you to produce now including visual effects on your laptop at Starbucks, which rivaled those we do here in in those visual effects studios. But not only visual facts, you know, that's just an example of everything you just you still need just like a music a good idea. Tasteful implementation, etc. That's still the same. But you have now a great opportunity that you can move now a lot of things yourself and that there's a demand on the other side for all people who want to watch more different things want to watch and give you give the attention to your Indie film. Whereas before they didn't even have access to it. Because it wasn't there wasn't available. And now we can make it available world.

Dave Bullis 42:30
Yeah, you know, you mentioned Tom Cruise, by the way to Klaus, you know, I once met I forget what he what he actually is the Tom but I he just said that the he had before you ever met Tom. He goes he always wondered what he was going to be like. And then he said once I met him, I knew why he was successful. And he goes he wakes up every day at four or five in the morning. He gets up he just starts going and he goes he never complains about having to be on set or don't take he never complains about having to do extra work. He goes all the guy does is he party who is you know, he's professional as can be. And he goes he goes I've never seen him with with a bad attitude whatsoever. And he goes, you know, he gets a lot of crap in the media for different things. He goes but you know, all that aside, he goes the guy just is a really hard worker.

Klaus Badelt 43:22
Yeah, and the tabloid news that's one thing but as a hard worker, exactly. I mean, he was issued fantastic to work with us, probably the only you only have the director on the film, I work with him. But you know, you only like producer who, you know, he had no problem seriously, going out at night to the deli and get everyone who was still working because we had to work all night for the last few nights to get us some food. So he had Tom Cruise, looking over my shoulder taking an order for Jerry's Deli. So that's true. And that's not like you want to be a nice guy. He's just like, Yeah, let's do it. You know, keep keep working. And I really appreciate that. And then you can see how this leads to success and well of course how it can lead to divorce but he's a very reasonable man. So in the in the in the news and everywhere. So again, focus always, like I said earlier, like to focus on actually working with these guys. And that's when they gain my respect. And then they will realize oh, yeah, okay, I don't know why.

Dave Bullis 44:27
Yeah, yeah. And see, again, stories like that about Tom, you know, just, you know, insanely hard worker and just likes what he does. And, you know, that's why when his movies come out, you know, I'm always interested to see how well they do began with the whole balancing the tabloid side of things and you know, I mean, I you know, I saw the mummy and I can definitely see what they were trying to do with it. You know, I just think that the the mummy as itself, the premise itself works at its best When Brendan Fraser had the cab, the six cyclists, I agree because Brendan Fraser is just he's just that he looks like a leading man. But he also can act like a goofball. You don't? I mean, and it said funny, and he and you don't I mean, and it just, it works so well, I think the mummy with Tom Cruise just took itself too seriously. And I think a lot of audiences now, you know, with all the options, you know, with all the options of TV and YouTube and everything else and, and also with still going to theater. I don't know if it if it found its I actually I know, it didn't find itself, you know, some of the some of the horror and that was was was fantastic. But I just think at the end of the day, you know, it's a lot of pressure to put on a movie to set up an entire universe. So you know, essentially it has because you know what it you know, it has to do so many things. Well, at the same time, it has to be a movie by itself. So you don't either. It's just it's a lot to do and I think it got pulled in too many directions.

Klaus Badelt 46:01
That happens a lot. And again, it's hard to because we seem to only be able to do franchises and re re re manufacture refactor them. But now Oh, like that's the big thing to do. Yeah, I totally understand what you're saying. Like, the perfect anti hero, you know, was Frasier and you know, reminds me of I don't know Harrison Ford. You know. You know, Indiana Jones like he's like you want that character was like, you know, he's a goofy, but he's more like, he can do he can do it, actually. But he doesn't want to. That's not the character. You know, you. Yeah, it comes in Tom has always Tom Cruise. Right. And that's not whether he's good. Or he's a great actor, actually. But he really I really admire his skills. No, no questions, no matter what, how thin the movie exactly is. But he's really great. But he's always giving himself and into it. So do you expect that it's hard to play against your own character?

Dave Bullis 47:04
Yeah, it's true. And he's doing what he likes and doing what he loves. And he has his own stunts, too. You know, and I know because we talked about distribution. I want to talk about film hub. I know we're starting to run out of time. See how it's you know, Klaus is kind of like a movie. It's like how crab? How do we get all this in here? We've got too much to cover. We don't have enough time.

Klaus Badelt 47:24
No, don't worry about it. No, this is not supposed to. I like to talk about creativity. And I like to talk about the force and the awakening. Now indie should have and I want to bring because I believe in it myself. And I've done it a lot. And with indie film, and I believe that there's now this big change and, and distribution, whatever the the the overall solution is that we have now as indie filmmakers, and new confidence we should have it. And who doesn't have it yet should learn about it. Because it is now possible, all I'm doing all the time now is with either with music, in films to support this in with film up, I'm doing this, to support it on a much larger scale, hopefully, that you can now check this off as a commodity, you can now you know, you cannot do films cheaper with your digital cameras, you can now do visual effects cheaper with or on your own, you can now check that off and check off distribution, you cannot be in every living room in the world. And you have to think of the world and not just your own country or you know, we have to stop thinking in domestic and foreign terms. We have to stop with territorial limitations. We have to stop thinking, windowing this is all what the audience doesn't want. This is all what the industry wants to make a bit more money, you know, to exhorted even more to milk the cow more. But just like in music we've seen, music is like a few years ahead of us in film, we can see how things happen there. Because also, the difference to me is only like bandwidth, right? Music is just less bandwidth needed. But you can see the same flow. And you can learn from that you can see how unimportant a big industry can render itself. And then they come back to what's the actual value. Hollywood does have a big value. But indie film has a much larger value of bread, then we have given us so far, and to strengthen, strengthen that in this case with the distribution platform where you don't have to pay anything and just be there and let it check it off. And then keep creating. And we have much more much more to do there. It's still, even though we have the internet and everybody can watch and do whatever they want whenever they want it in wherever they wanted.

Alex Ferrari 49:56
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Klaus Badelt 50:06
That doesn't mean you don't make movies, by the way for cell phones, right? Like this has been talked about, like the last 10 years. But that's not the case, you just have much more freedom as the audience now to watch what you like, it's harder to find what you like, because there's so much more now. But we have to now put all these tools into place all these digital tools into place, and leverage them as filmmakers, you got to move on and, and embrace this too, we have to stop being that dinosaur ourselves. And there's a lot more to talk about, right when it comes to. But in general, it means like, this is a great opportunity is the digital opportunity now, to create actually very beautiful and meaningful film. Again, more than if I may say, so Hollywood, is dares to produce at this point.

Dave Bullis 51:02
In that's why, you know, stuff like film hub, and I and I was reading your website. So, you know, I've had other people on here, like Jason Brubaker from distributor, you know, things like that, where, you know, people are, you know, companies like yourself, they're, you know, it's a way to get on Amazon, it's way to go on Hulu. You know, so people can, because those are where the eyeballs are right? You know, especially with Amazon, and especially with Amazon, the way it's becoming, they're trying to get more into the video market, you know, who was Hulu? You know, and all these different channels? You know, how do you stand out? How do you get your film on there? Because I mean, even a couple years ago, I remember, you know, just talking to people, and I would say, how the hell do you even get a film on here? You know, how do you get a film? On any of these platforms? You know, do you have to get in a sales agent to pitch to him? And, you know, a few years ago, maybe it's only mean, and actually, you did have to, you know, they had to have the contacts, they had to go through this. And then you had to have deliverables the right way. And, you know, her high ratings. I mean, seriously, and your Netflix has their own way of delivering films, you know, and it's just, you know, do you have all that? Even deliverables a few years ago, before that, Klaus, you know, you had to have? Do you have a 35 millimeter print? You have this? Do you have that? And you're like, well, for indie filmmakers, you know, that's, that's, you know, what, what, how much did prints use the costs? Cost, like $50,000, I think, or something like that, or maybe a lot more so. Right. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, seriously, I would say it's, you know, and so, so that's why I wanted to have you on class to talk about filmhub. And just all this stuff. I know, we can't, we're running out of time. But, you know, just just in closing, Klaus, you know, is there any sort of parting thoughts that you wanted to say, to sort of put a period in this whole conversation?

Klaus Badelt 52:47
Well, again, like I think it's about to me, it's about like, and I love coming on the show like this is to talk about the strength of indie, and that we have to develop now really quick, our own confidence more than we think that often I still I was at Sundance again, and everywhere I go on these festivals is, we still think too much of what we want to achieve is to beat the old system to get your film being picked up. In in terms of, like, like recording artists in music, that also already means the kiss of death, you have to develop it on your own and be your own, have an ownership model, we have to change the model. And then the creativity can actually continue. And so what we're building here with this film, for example, what I'm doing with my movies, into support, like Chinese movies is like there is such a variety out there. And we just have to keep going. creating great stuff. And this is now a much more open world. And then maybe next time we can talk a bit more about how I how I see how, what the what, in my opinion the right way or for what is the right vision forward is where this industry can be in five years. But that's maybe too much for now. We could talk about Alexa.

Dave Bullis 54:02
I know I'm actually now I'm tempted to you know, keep talking to you. Just me I know you got I know you gotta run. And I'm just tempted to give you did to get you hanging on just to just sort of finished that thought. I mean, you know, that's why, you know, I'm getting back into the swing of things too. You know, I got just burned out from doing things and now for for listeners who you know, listen to the past couple of episodes Klaus, they know I'm actually going to start making I want to make a faux trailer again, just a fun fake trailer and throw it up on YouTube. I've been doing a lot more stuff, just with with back and getting into the saddle with this creative stuff I always been writing and you know, it's just it's just getting back into it because I realized you know, I just talked with everybody leaving you know, every guest you know, I always hear different things and it's just important to give keep going and keep trying and get back out there. Because I mean I flat out would be very honest with everybody I got so burned out clouds from just the amount of bullcrap. Just from like, you know, projects never went anywhere. Where to you shoot a project and then somebody holds it hostage on a hard drive, which I've seen, you know, that only happened to me once, thankfully. But other people, it's happened to them like two or three times, you know, just crazy. Because I just sing in the dark the whole time, you know, when it got to. But, but, you know, again, I know you have to go Klaus and, you know. So again, I want to say thank you for coming on. And where can people find you at online?

Klaus Badelt 55:25
So we're at filmhub.com and my own personal website is klausbadelt.com or klausbadelt.com So you can you can find me there and go from there and reach out on Twitter. We're a film hub HQ. I monitor that personally, too. And yeah, get in touch and let's think let's keep creating that revolutionary like that. And I love that, you know, going back getting back into it, too. We have to keep creating. That's the idea.

Dave Bullis 55:52
You got to have one foot in theory one foot and practice. It's dangerous when you don't I mean, so. Exactly. So it will thank you. Thank you Klaus. I just thought is off top my head buddy thought taught me. So, everyone, it's Dave bulls.com. Twitter. It's at db podcast. Klaus, I want to say Aveda sane. And in fact, you see that rudimentary German helped out

Klaus Badelt 56:16
That'll help you worldwide. No, thank you for having me. A lot of fun. Keep following your podcast and hope it was in little bit insightful for someone.

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Christopher Nolan’s Micro-Budget Short Films: Doodlebug

In our ongoing series of spotlighting famous director’s first micro-budget outings, we present Christopher Nolan’s Doodlebug. Doodlebug was shot in 1997 and created the film during his university days using 16mm film.

This psychological short-film has gained a cult following, especially given the heights which Christopher Nolan’s now climbed since making it. The film concerns a grungy man, in a filthy apartment. He is anxious and paranoid, trying to kill a small bug-like creature that is scurrying on the floor. It is revealed that the bug resembles a miniature version of himself.

He squashes the bug with his shoe. However, every movement the “doodlebug” makes is later matched by the man himself, and he is later squashed by a larger version of himself.

Download Chris Nolan’s Screenplay Collection in PDF

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Want to watch more short films by legendary filmmakers?

Our collection has short films by Martin Scorsese, Quentin Tarantino, the Coen Brothers, Chris Nolan, Tim Burton, Steven Spielberg & more.

IFH 705: How to Tell Your Internal Story with Jen Grisanti

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:47
I'd like to welcome to the show, Jen Grisanti. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Jen Grisanti 3:16
Oh, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. You are a very, very busy lady, and doing lots of lots of good work for a lot of screenwriters out there. So thanks for taking the time out to talk to the tribe. It is my pleasure. Thank you. So how did you get into this crazy business? You know, I went to USC and I studied cinema communication, never heard and.

Alex Ferrari 3:42
And I and then I yeah, I got out of school. I really didn't have anybody contact wise. I knew I wanted entertainment. I didn't know exactly what capacity. So I went to Friedman, a job pining agency, which is focused on entertainment, jobs. And that helped me build my resume. I also, which is great for people to know, like, just take cold calling and called all my top places that I want. I wanted to work and I said I'm willing to intern and that helped me build my resume. And then I real quick is that something that you think that is is doable, even in today's world with so much more competition? I definitely do. I mean, I talked to so many people who do cold calling, and it's fat. Well, first of all, when you're offering to work for free as an intern there that that that certainly has its leverage, you know, it's just can you afford to do that? So I don't I recommend like what I didn't know and of course I was in college is a whole different time than now. But what I didn't know is like I should have started

Jen Grisanti 5:00
During college doing all my interns what I did, yeah, save, that's the smart way to go. And so and yeah, I've definitely believe in the cold calling is a good way. And then the great thing is when you do apply to an agency, like the Freedman agency or the COMAR, agency in Beverly Hills, then you have a resume already started. So you're not like going into these companies with nothing on your resume. And, and then you get placed, I got placed in the spelling office. So you know, through Freedman, and that changed my entire career. I mean, you know, that was a pivotal moment, in the deciding of what direction I was going to go with my career. Now, let's talk a little bit about the spelling office and your use a spelling office, you're talking about the legendary Aaron Spelling for them. For the audience. for audience members who don't know who Aaron Spelling is, please tell a little bit about who he is and what he did. And then how, what was it like being mentored by by a giant horse, of course, so Well, Aaron Spelling, APU, I'd like the younger audience doesn't have near as much knowledge and I and I totally understand and appreciate that C W has done a new Niner to one hour and a new Melrose Place. But Aaron Spelling was the originator of like, dynasty TJ hooker in a million shots like he is one of the most prolific producers in history with the number of hours of television that he produced. And then when I started in his office, he 902 When I had been going for a year, like there was a point near his career that

that they call the ABC because he had seven shows on ABC, they called it Aaron's broadcasting company.

And then and that didn't go over too well. So so that you know, so he went through that era, and then he and then he all of his shows got canceled at a similar time that were happening at that time. And then he kind of went through a dry spell before nine or 210, which really so when I entered his office, he was in such a place of he was so humble and so open because of what he had experienced and, and 92. And I was taking off at the time that I was in the office, it was the first year and then Melrose Place was the day that I started Melrose Place was being cast. So the original the original Melrose Place in the original Beverly Hills Niner two went out. So that that was you know, then spelling was on fire again. And then everybody wanted to be in business with them. And he did a lot of business with Fox obviously because of 90210 and Melrose Place, and then branched out into CBS and other network NBC and I and it really things took off again. So it was a very good time. I was 24 he was 69 So it was a very good time because he was in a life place where where he wanted to mentor and he really wanted to teach me how to be his eyes and ears for you know, for scripts and story coming in. So I was very blessed. You know, I'm at the right place at the right time. I was yeah, it was a good good thing for people listening I mean the can't underestimate the power of what nine to one no did and Melrose Place did at the time. It was a phenomenon. It really it really was. I actually lived down the street in Florida in that mall where Luke Perry created the the riot. Oh, I love that. Great. I mean, it was a pivotal time in my life. And even though like I had graduated college, when it was first started, it was still such a pivotal time because High School is such a time for every single one of us. It's such a growth period that wewere going through like a huge arc of growth. And so looking at them kind of go through their their joys and their trials in their tribulations. It brings us back into it, but they weren't but they were all 27 At least Yeah, exactly.

Alex Ferrari 9:46
Outside Yeah. Nobody who was a creative Liberdade.

Jen Grisanti 9:52
No doubt about that.

Alex Ferrari 9:54
I mean, Luke Perry, I think was like 3030 years old man.

Jen Grisanti 10:00
That's so funny. I remember all that went with that choice. Yeah. Yeah.That's a good guy.

Alex Ferrari 10:09
Now, what did you What were some of the biggest takeaways you got from Aaron?

Jen Grisanti 10:15
You know, I mean, I, I, again, it was a gift to be taught by a gentleman who was so about the work and so passionate about the work. And so, like, he expected a lot from you in that he expected, you know, expected perfection. And that was a very hard thing to learn to really operate on that level. But it was the greatest training ground and because he expected perfection from himself, and he gave it at, it really helped you to look at things and really operate at a high level. Now, it's not to say like, when I say the word, perfection, you you are going to make mistakes along the way in every path. And, and it really, I think what a lot of what he taught me was, you know, If a mistake is made, then it's how you fix it that makes the difference in it's how you respond after it, how you take responsibility for it, how you move forward after it, he he was a master when it came to story. So watching him in the we would have rough cuts in his office of the episodes and a rough cut is after production is done. And it comes into the producers office. And then you watch what's called Rough Cut. And, and it was always a really amazing to see how you could take a script and do all your notes on the script. And then when it would be filmed then recognize Well, there are changes that I want to make, and through editing, like just watching how he would do things to like, make the outbreak more impactful, or how he would move around scenes so that the story will work in a lot stronger way. And and really, you know, learning about I think the thing that made him the happiest was, you know, knowing that he had the ability to discover young talent. And by young I don't mean age, I just mean young at the beginning of the career. So he to discover newer talent and and know that he could open a door that could change someone's life. Now how long were you with Aaron's filling? 12 years? Wow. So you were there for a while? Yes. Yeah. And you and yeah, I'm assuming you, you rose in the ranks? I did I buy now, again, it's always good for people to hear like, it's really focusing on what you want. I was lucky that at the time I was in his office. Um, my mom had given me tapes from Tony Robbins. And that tape set had really helped me hone in on what do I want? And how do I get there? And what are the action steps that I need to take? So when I was in his office, I recognized there was no one reading scripts in his inner office in his immediate office. So because he would always do like five or 10 calls, trying to find the answers to things I thought, Well, why don't I just read the script. So of course, that meant that I worked till 830 at night and read scripts till 1130 At night, but it was worth it. And so that is what began the process of me reading scripts, and then we go over the script the following day. And that's really what taught me and then from there, I became a coordinator of current programming than a manager than a director. And then I ran current programming at his company for my last two and a half years before I was promoted to CBS Paramount where I was vice president of current programming. And were you there during the charm dears? I was yes, I used to love that show. Yeah, yes, charmed was a blast. It was amazing with that show to see where it started and see where it went as well. I think that was the most rewarding part of current programming was, you know, really watching a show develop and find its voice and find its audience within the time and certainly we're in a day and age where a to the TV shows don't have the luxury now that they did when I started my career and that now they really, you know, ideally, a current show usually can take anywhere from five to eight episodes.to really find his voice and to really blend the network, the studio and the showrunners vision into something that really works. And now, the hard thing is, is very often you don't have that kind of time. So you have to find what the show is sooner,

Alex Ferrari 15:19
Right because there's just too much competition. I mean, before there was too much out session, there was three channels, and you could just sit, you could either watch what we're putting out, or you can watch nothing. Exactly.And there was three, there was three shows on at nine o'clock.

Jen Grisanti 15:34
I know, I knew when I started my career, the only specs people were writing were sopranos and Sex in the City. You know, I mean, it was like, you know, how fascinating how different things are now? Very much. So. Can we talk a little bit about about the explosion in scripted series? And the opportunities for writers today? I mean, isn't there like 450? Yes, years now. It's fascinating. Like, even though there's massive opportunity on television, and there definitely is, it doesn't make the path to getting a job much easier than it did.

Alex Ferrari 16:15
There's nothing it's just more competition there is if there would have been 450 shows in 1990.

Jen Grisanti 16:24
Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 16:24
then yes. Anybody who could literally just drag it up to a typewriter?

Jen Grisanti 16:28
Yeah. And write a script,

Alex Ferrari 16:30
something like a monkey could get a job. Yeah. But there's so much more.

Jen Grisanti 16:35
Now, if you're not the case. I mean, it really takes a village to get a person staffed. Like when I was starting as an executive. You know, really, I mean, I really worked hard on staffing, most of the shows that I worked on, I worked with my executive producer, and I was in all the meetings with the writers and I handled many of the calls with the agents. So you really saw you know, what went into why, why the people were getting stabbed? Were getting stabbed. And so it was an it shows you and I definitely think, and trust me and my, my, my business, Jen Grisanti consultancy, Inc. I've been doing this for 10 years. And I look at how many feature writers I've worked with that I I've gotten to write television. And just because there definitely is more opportunity in TV. So if the talent is there, in my opinion, the platform to be ivn his television right now.

Alex Ferrari 17:45
That's what everyone Yeah, talking to says the exact same. Well, there's a rabbit. It's a renaissance. Yeah, it really is. And it started with this approach. I would agree. Would you argue it started with the Sopranos? Yeah, I would totally agree. Yeah, it's kind of just went from there. Yeah. Cuz could Breaking Bad have happened in the 90s.

Jen Grisanti 18:04
I know. I mean, you do look at the pivotal shows. And the fascinating thing now like when you look at shows now like, like, Doa and sense, aid, and fleabag. And there's a great show on Netflix called a Depor. Song 10%, or call my agent is the English title. And that it's brilliant. And so, you know, I think the work being done right now, a lot of the shows that I teach from currently, I can't tell you like, like, so many of the shows that I teach from our British shows to, you know, that land on network, I mean, on Netflix, or Amazon or Hulu, and they get to go outside the box, they have more freedom, and because they have more freedom, and more creative liberty, I find that I'm able to create story tools from the writing on there that I'm able to pass on to the writer so that they can write the script that can't be ignored, that will lead to a sale that will lead to them getting staffed.

Alex Ferrari 19:15
And do you suggest that writers do a screenplay or teleplay first, which one do you think if there's if you're a screenwriter and you want to get attention? Do you write a teleplay first or do you write a feature screenplay first as a proof? Not proof of concept? Oh, no. I mean, you certainly like when you're looking at writing portfolio right? Yeah, you could have a feature script in it. Now you're never going to get someone in television to read a feature script unless they hear it so good. And the content in it is so right for the show that is being staffed. So So really in TV you want to write now. No, of course yet. What you're asking I think as well is do you write a spec script

Jen Grisanti 20:00
Have a show that's already on? Where do you write in original? And you know, there are different schools of thought, certainly when I came up the ranks, you had to have two spec scripts in your writing portfolio that were current No, no older than two years old. And two originals. And I would definitely say there's been a shift, and that there are writers out there who really don't want to write TV spec scripts, or the existing shows they only want to write original material. It used to be that you couldn't, you had to have it. And the reason was, because when you would try to, you know, when I would pitch a writer to my executive producer with a TV pilot, they would read the pilot first and be, you know, and really want to know, the original voice of the writer. But then they'd want they'd ask for the spec script, because they wanted to know that that writer knew how to mimic somebody else's voice. Right. And that's a really good point when you're when you're writing for a show, because a lot of writers have a very unique voice. You know, Tarantino has one of the arguably one of the most unique voices out there. And he did do some writing, he did a CSI episode with an ER episode. I love it. Oh, that's great. I didn't know that. They did. And they and he wrote them.

But he was Talentino. So they let him kind of go off a little bit. But generally speaking, generally speaking, when a writer comes on staff, he has to mimic the show, he can't just be himself or herself. Yeah. How do you? What kind of what kind of tips do you have for writers to be able to adapt like that? Well, you have to know I think, also now more than ever, you have to understand your voice. And and I always ask writers, do you know what your voice is? And then I'll get like, say, a third of a room

that knows? And then I'll say, How would you describe it. And then I'll have like, maybe four hands left, that, that really want really know how to describe their voice. And so I think part of the journey for the writer is, knowing what your voice is. And then when you're mimicking somebody else's show, I've had many writers say, Well, I can't really use my voice on someone else's show, because it's a show now that that's not true, because you want to write it, you know, I remember, Danna Shannon, who's an Emmy Award winning writer from Modern Family. He said to me, like one of his strategies, and I, I loved it, of winning the staffing for shows that the beginning of his career was, he would find out the character that they struggled the most with writing wise. And he would make, he would have a pitch ready with that character in a stronger light, so that they would realize they need him on that show. And so I thought that was such an such a great approach. But I, I think like for me when I remember watching a show, like save big glove on HBO. And I would know as soon as I saw the writers name, I would know if I was going to love the episode, because I so understood the voice of each writer and the capability of each writer with the story so so there's definitely even in mimicking somebody else's voice like you with your spec scripts, you definitely don't want to write a spec script that doesn't feel like a produced episode, you want to write a script that feels like a produced episode. But you also want to write a script that dives and digs deep into, you know, the emotional aspect of the story, or the uniqueness of the story that makes it so that yours is a script that can't be ignored. Like I remember, I remember there was a writer on Charmed, who I brought him into the executive producer and he got staffed in the room. Based on the strength of his spec script. He wrote a sopranos script that was so memorable. Like, I still remember it and it was, you know, Tony, when he they showed a flashback of Tony when he was a child, and he got caught masturbating by his mom. And and the shame that was in that moment, transferred to everything that was going on in the current plot. And so he threaded it through so that everybody could connect with what that experience must have been like, which brought you so much deeper into the story and it was a memorable script, you know, and then like, I mean,

People did stuff like I had writers write combination spec scripts, like I had, there was a writer that wrote a sopranos and Sex in the City mixed in. So there certainly were different strategies that people use. That's Tony and Terry, in the same episode. Yeah.

I'm sure he got some notice for it. I know, in the end, people remember this, I remember there was also a writing team who had been together for many, many years. And they wrote a pilot that was loosely blit, based on their split. And everyone wanted to know that story. So that became, you know, so I definitely think there are there are such original ways. And as I said, when you look at shows like fleabag, and the OA and Depor song, like, there, you there are ways to go outside the box with your voice, but still have a strong structure. There are also shows that

that are succeeding, quite honestly, that are, the structure isn't great, but the voice is great. And so you know, so So there's something to be said about this as well. That's why I think it's more important now than ever, to know your voice and create concepts that really utilize the strength of your voice. Again, that voice is so strong in a show like Stranger Things, which is a phenomenon at this point, they have an eye out. But that voice is so strong, and so specific. It is 13 reasons why I mean so many like there's just so many smells that's now up for Best Comedy. Yeah, there are so many shows that that people are going outside the box and they're taking risks, and they're not doing traditional structure. And sometimes it works. And sometimes it doesn't. But there's a freedom to do that stuff. Yeah, we're they're included. You couldn't do it before. Yeah, I look at a show like Frank and Frankie and grace of Frankie. Yes. Which is I just love that show. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 27:16
Well written. Yeah. It is so funny. And it's so out, like they would never put that would never be on network television. It just couldn't. It couldn't I agree. So wonderful to see them all. Yeah, pounding. You know, the stories are just pounding at the, at a high level as you Yes. Now, what is the biggest mistake you see first time writers make?

Jen Grisanti 27:39
You know, I think it when it comes down to development story, I think the biggest mistake made in pilots is either too much character, not enough plot, or too much plot not enough character. So I think it's really recognizing that, you know, a TV is a character based business. So your audience is coming back because of your characters. So, so it's really doing the work on developing two to three of your characters in a very strong way. That brings your audience back. And I think that many writers, you know, first they'll populate their show way too much and have way too many characters and, and they'll have several characters serving the same purpose and doing the same thing. And so, you know, I think it's understanding, it's really understanding that less is more and and when an executive like when I would have 300 scripts behind me during staffing season, and I opened a script. First of all, with dramas you want to be around 58 to 60 pages Max, and I and you don't want it to be so complex that the executive would have to read it three times to really be able to grasp the concept. So so it's really writing toward that recognition. And I would say newer writers, you know, have the weight of oh my god, I have to make this stand out. And it has to be a dynamo. And in order to be a dynamo so many people think they have to reinvent the wheel. And in doing so they lose a grasp of what it is they're trying to say with their story because they're trying to impress Yes. No, with that, on that topic trying to impress, and this is something I've seen and I've heard from multiple places, I'd love to hear your opinion. What sometimes when you're reading a script, especially from a new writer, you you see them using not only 50 cent words, but dollar 50 words that are just you know, so out there, as far as you know, just reading Do you feel that by doing that you alien

Meet the reader sometimes because, you know, it's not supposed to be a vocabulary test. You know, I know that note is definitely given him writers on the verge of NBC. I'm a writing instructor they're like, and I've done that for nine years now. And I know that one of the notes that is often given

by my colleague, Karen Horne, who runs the whole diversity program at NBC, on all of the diversity programs, Karen, like, she's definitely given the notice, if I can't understand it, then you know what I mean? So, so you have to guess you have to think of those things. Like if it's one thing like to go, oh, I want to use big words, because I want to impress my audience. Now, it really is looking, I always say like, you always have to think what serves the story in the strongest way, right.

Alex Ferrari 30:56
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And now back to the show.

Jen Grisanti 31:07
And what you know, and but if the reader has to literally stop reading your script and go to the dictionary, because they can't really place the use of the word, then there's a problem. You're interrupting the process, you're interrupting the flow. But I am a person, I have to be honest, I like the high vocabulary. I am interested. And the people who get and I like the lyrical and the poetic use in the language. I'm a big person of I love when I read an action lines that they even get really creative with the action lines like that, for me is I love all that. Now that I read in, in Stephen King's book on writing, he actually brought that up, he's like, look, you know, and he's arguably one of the most successful writers in history. Yeah. He's like, look, I can use big words, watch. And he just lays out this little paragraph with 40. I mean, 45 words I've never even heard of, and he's like, Hey, did you understand that? No, that means I didn't sell that book. So stop it. Yeah. And I could not I could not agree more. I have to admit that. Like, I don't think I've ever put a script down and said, those words are too big. And I can't get it now. It rare now. But also very experienced.

For 25 years. Yeah, there's

no audience reading scripts today. Yeah, it's true. Now, it's very true. Well, and I have to say, it's fascinating thing to get in what people have to consider, like, you know, I have writers in my storywise community, and they're always on a private Facebook. And I always look at the comments and see what writers are talking about. And I knew recently, I've had several my writers from my story wise, 10 week, teleseminar end up doing incredibly well in the competitions, and writing programs. And so they were talking about this one festival, which I'm not going to name but they were talking about this one festival, where, you know, several of them had won or placed in several competitions based on the script, their one script and, and then they sent it to this festival. And suddenly the feedback didn't at all align with all the other feedback that they've gotten. And, and that's because some of these festivals pay their readers nothing. And their readers are 25 years old. And they don't have the experience with story, to be able to give the feedback that really, really reflects what the work is. And so when you're writing the big words, and you're going over the top, you have to think about things like that, like if you have a 25 year old reader who misses the whole point of your story because of your vocabulary, that's problem. It'll never get to a person like you who can actually understand it, because yes, the gatekeepers will let it go through. Yeah, it's it's strategy as much as it is writing. Yes, it is. No, everything is strategy. I always say to writers, like when you're designing your writing portfolio, you have to think, what are the three top shows that I would die to write on? And then you have to look at your portfolio and go does my portfolio support that outcome?

Alex Ferrari 34:47
Fairly simple, but very, it's something that is missed quite often. Yes. Yes. Like the director who wants to direct action movies, but he's only done period dramas.

Jen Grisanti 34:57
Yeah, you know, I am

Believe me that I see the dream happen all the time. So I'm definitely not a person who's gonna say the dream doesn't happen because the dream happens every day. And and you have, I think the biggest, the strongest component for the writers I've worked with that have made it in a big way, his belief, you have to have belief in your talent, because if you don't believe nobody else will. Now what is what stops screenwriters from being successful?

Getting in their own way? I mean, I see it all the time. I see it all the time. You know, you see writers who write too much, and don't know how to edit back. And, and they talk like that as well, when they're in a room like there, there is so much being said that you have to really fish out what is the main point of what is being said. So that's certainly a way and I know that's nervous energy. And that's, and you, you have to go through things to really know them. But things like in other things, ways people get in their own way is they'll, they'll, they'll be in a room and they'll alienate other people, or they'll,

they'll talk, they won't talk at all, they won't contribute. So that's a problem, or they'll talk too much. And you'll feel like, okay, they just want to hear themselves think and and, you know, there's not valuable stuff coming out here. So I think the whole editing process on the page, and in the room is the biggest part. And then I think you have incredibly talented writers who are very internal people, and to make a writing career happen, you have to be external. So so that journey, you know, the the perfect pilot that went into that was Silicon Valley. You know, Richard when Ehrlich said, Dude, you got to make something a pied piper, you're out of the house, Richard, then who was a very internal person had to learn to become an external and in the first scene, he's pitching his Pied Piper idea to these two guys at the sink at the office, and they laugh at him. And and that, you know, but that's the process, like the growth process is, yeah, you're going to make mistakes, you're going to pitch ideas that people don't like, that's okay. At least you're trying and you're learning and you're growing, and you're evolving, and you're moving forward. And that's what you want to be doing. You certainly don't want talent, like it drives me crazy when I see incredible talent may never be realized, because of one thing that gets in the way of the outcome happening.

Alex Ferrari 38:04
happens in every aspect of life. But in the film business, I've seen a two directors get in the wrong way. You've seen it publicly to some Yes. Oh, yeah. That's

Jen Grisanti 38:18
a whole new world going on right now. I think Do you know like, for me, though, and not to go into any thing on that, which I certainly could. Sure. But I you know, my feeling with that is now that it's been exposed, and and the careers and livelihoods and everything else or have are gone or have gone down the drain. And now it's like it has to be about the focus needs to move into changing systems. So that this doesn't happen. Like that is more important than ever right now. I certainly love that. Out of all this. Our young daughters are sewing to be able to go after the dream without having to go through that like that makes my heart very happy to know I don't have kids, but my go to vendors. Yeah, like that. It's an important thing. And so I think it I think it's a growth time for everybody in the business to really look at the behavior and understand it. Yeah, the one thing I find fascinating about it, and I've never seen this, I don't think ever other than maybe in the McCarthy day know McCarthy but it's the McCarthy. Well, they were they were doing the they're doing the communist hunt. Yes, yes. Yes. That I don't think that's, you know, everything that's happening right now is completely valid and needed without question, but I've never seen complete careers Oscar winning careers are now gone.

Like it's gone. Kevin Spacey will not work again. I can't see I can't see a path back. Yeah, I can't see a path back Hollywood love to redemption story. I do that I like there are people like Harvey Weinstein, he's gonna pay Bill Cosby that you look at and you know and there are other there are other big ones that I'm not even going to

look up you know you sit there and you go they can't they can't like it was too dark in there were too many people saying too many things that aligned and so you have to but I you know see stuff like this intrigues me on a psychological level because I would love to see a show done where the lead character is like a Kevin Spacey or Matt Lauer or Harvey Weinstein and how do they move through life after that fall? So you bet interests so like a Breaking Bad, but yeah, selling meth that they're they're harassers depriving their life. I mean, they're having to figure out that's where they went wrong. And how do they get life back on track that intrigues me? Because that's a curiosity to like, after, you know, I mean, literally, they wiped Kevin Spacey from this movie. Yes. A few weeks before the release, that's wild. That is like you're raced. That's like you're gone. You're doing it now. Because now your house of cards and all this kind of stuff. And the funny thing is, I I'm talking to my friends who you know, are in the business, but you know, I've been around a bit longer than them. And I'm like, This guy's gonna come out next. This guy's gonna come out next. And next to it.

Funny that you said that, like, I was at dinner with a close friend of mine who had a big project with a big producer. And I said his days are numbered. And two days later, it was in the trades and the Yes, and surgery. It's I mean, I was talking to my buddy the other day, I'm like, you know who's coming out next. It's gonna be Ratner's coming next.

Ratner is the one we all heard. I know, we all knew. And I Oh, by the way, I heard those stories when he was in miami pre rush hour. Yes. Before he was a big so I've heard these stories. And then I heard about Bryan Singer. Oh, I heard about half before that happened. Yeah. Brian and Kevin. Both I heard about them back in 2001. Yeah, I was hearing about those two. That's how long ago it was. It's insanity. Well, and the thing that thing that's hard about this, too, is there, there's a lot of hypocrisy. So So you know, there's certainly a you know, things have to change. Absolutely. Has there. There are a lot of people that supported this who aren't being punished. Oh, yeah. And who were a part of this happening. So it things have to change so that we don't have a careers going down the toilet left and right every day. Like literally, it feels like a PR thing of who gets what day when they come out. I mean, it's It's so wild. It's insane. And it's not just our business. It's not every business and it's all over the world. London is now heavy into it. And then Australia with Geoffrey Rush. I mean, everybody is in it now. It says it's Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's gonna get pretty. We've got we've gone way off topic. Yes.

That's all right. That's what's going on right now.

But that is our lead draw from that and bring that to the page. Without question, and that's, that's very, very valid now. Um, can you can you talk real quick about some bad habits you see writers do all the time? Um, well, you know, there are people who will harp on typos and this and that. And I, I say, Whatever you can do have as few typos as possible, I definitely agree that it will distract you. However, I have also seen writers who just kill themselves worry wise after they enter a program because they find two typos. And what you have to know is if the content is there, that's what sells so so. So you really have to trust in the content, I would say, you know, so they, you know, things like things to look out, like, you know, study scripts, I mean, look at you know, look at scripts know how many pages are per act? No, you know, and there's no steadfast rule on how many pages prep but have a general

idea like don't have a 30 page Act One. And then five pages for every other act like really know things that you should know through that through looking at scripts, certainly you can go the Writers Guild library, there are many people who say, Well, I can't get a whole scripts number I on my website, and I'm sure you have resources as well, where you go to my resources, page and my links, and I have all the websites that have scripts, and so you can get scripts. And then I would say another mistake writers make is they're not prepared for meetings, they don't know who they're meeting with. And there's no excuse for this right now. Like the internet tells you everything about everyone. And so you you know, walk into a meeting, be prepared, be ready to I always tell writers to to think when you're going into a meeting, have three marketing points that you absolutely do not want to leave the meeting without sharing, have three points, then you could relax in the meeting, but know that you have to bring up those three points. Now, what are those? When you mean marketing points? What do you mean exactly? Well, anything that markets you as a writer, so say, for example, I'm

there I had, I had, I'm not gonna name him because I don't want to embarrass him. But it was actually I love that he shared this I had a very big show runner, one of my seminars share a story that he had gone into a meeting that was the medical show, and he had 13 years background as a medical administrator, and he forgot to bring them.

Yeah. So you know, there are things that you know, you get nervous, and you forget. And so,

yeah, so that's an example like you, you have to be prepared, you have to know, what is the show I'm up for? What do I have in my background that shows the executive that I have a huge well of story to be able to tell story. For this concept. If you're going on a specific show, if you're not going on a specific show, then you want to know like, what are my overall general story points? And that can you know, you definitely want to think about what is a personal anecdote that I have that reveals something about me, for example, you know, I can say for myself, when I started my own business 10 years ago, on my two main story points for our you know, I was in a long relationship that ended in a short marriage and represented the depth of the fairy tale. And I had a, my career was interrupted mid flow when I was a vice president, because I thought I was going to run a studio. And so when the job when my contract wasn't renewed on the heels of an unexpected situation, then I had to read, readjust and redefine and everything that I was a blogger for Huffington Post for like seven or eight years, and my books, my two books sold on those two story points. So you have to really, really, and you know, and when you share your emotional truth, that's how you discover your audience. That's how you find one I'll go into a room. And I'll say, oh, Aaron Spelling was my mentor for 12 years, and I've been in the business for all this time. I've been a writing instructor for NBC for nine years. I this I that people don't connect with that, because they don't know that life experience. But when I say I was in a long relationship that ended in a short marriage, and represented the depth of the fairytale how many people know what it is to have your heart broken than you ever have a room big everyone knows. And then I'll say how many people have lost a job then you're the other half of the room, raise their hand and it's like, then then it's like, I see you you see me? And that's what you want to do. Now, can you discuss a little bit about your books? Yes. Um, so storyline, finding gold in your life story is adding fiction to your truth. So as a an executive, the biggest thing I was known for was really diving deep in my writer meetings into the wealth of story of writers. And then I would say, Have you ever written about that? No, I'll say not in an autobiographical way, but in a way of sharing your emotional truth and, and the difference in the gift of sharing your emotional truth is that you can heal and writing is healing. You can heal and bury your truth in fiction, which is

Why people, right. And so, you know, it's really this book is all about through breaking down features and television. And both books are based on my philosophy of story, which, in simplistic terms, and I certainly go into a much more advanced look at it in my books. But in simplistic terms, my formula that I discovered that Oscar nominated, Emmy nominated Golden Globe nominated stories, what I found when I extracted a formula was that every story starts with a powerful trigger incident that pushes the character into a dilemma. And then the choice that is made in that dilemma is what defines the external goal. And then every action taken obstacle head needs to link back to that goal. And it's when the goal isn't defined that the story doesn't work.

So we have to know what the character wants and why they want it.

And so that philosophy is, in every single one of us, like you talked about Michael Hague, and everyone out there. And you know, Lee Jessup, Pilar, Alexandria, and Dara marks, you know, like everyone, the gift of, of storytelling people really is that we are sharing what we know through our lens through our worldview, a story I happen to come from the studio executive worldview. So that's how I see story I see story through that lens. And then, after leaving that view, and becoming a writing instructor for NBC and building my own business, then that lens became even more enhanced, because I was, I had the time to dig deeper into the story process and really see what it was and read every single thing out there. I mean, I, I highly recommend that every writer like read every script, you can get your hands on read every book that comes out on story and recognize there's a value and a gift through understanding other people's worldview and understanding how to utilize it in your voice and your worldview.

That is a very good point is understanding and when knowing when you're following people and it because there's so many people, so many podcasts out there, yes. So many blogs out there. Yeah. And a lot of them are saying a lot of the same stuff. Yeah. But it's all about perspective. And I think that's one of the reasons why it separates you. Right? Because I mean, look, a lot of the information that I put out there through indie film, hustle is out in other places, but I have a unique perspective. And you're right, never thought of it that way. But my worldview is coming from post production and film and kind of like the the trenches, if you will, but not from directing the $200 million movie. Yeah. value in your perspective, because we need to know all of it. You know, like, you'll have people who will say, I'll have people say, well, Jen, have you ever written a script and I have written a script, but I'm not a writer, like I am, I recognize that my strength is internal with writing. So writing articles, content and books is where my love and my passion is, and screenwriting is not my passion because I was raised on the analytical side of it. And that's, that's the side that I love. I love diving into why story works, and how to create tools to pass on to writers so that they can make their story work. Now, I'm going to ask you a few questions. I ask all of my my guests. So this kind of like rapid fire. Yeah. What advice would you give a screenwriter wanting to break into the business today?

Ah, I think right, right, right. Is the probably the biggest I know so many writers who don't, right? So you have to have a body of work. You have to fearlessly move through every story and recognize that you grow with every script you write. So you have to you know, really and I think it's it's it's understanding your passion and your emotional truth. And then it's also looking at what the market but not But recognizing your passion is what sells so the market has room for new ideas. So don't think you have

After write only toward the market know that you have to write toward your passion because your passion is what sells. Now, can you tell me what book had the biggest impact on your life or career? Ah, you know, I've had so many that's such a good question. I mean, like on a spiritual level, uh, you know, there are

a god, there's a book called

understanding the why I can't I forget the name. Exactly. But I would say in a in entertainment in writing my favorite books, and I have so many of them. I'd have to say, I love stealing fire from the gods great book. I love I love DB Geils book, The screenwriter within, ah, I love Oh, my God. There's a book that I'm reading right now. And I have to tell you, I have never heard of this writer. And his book is blowing me away. And his name is Matt bird. And it's the hidden tools of story. And in the wild thing is, is I think it's structured toward fiction writers not specifically television or film, but he goes so deep into television and film that, that I look at him and I think all right, if there were a book that I if I had the time to go at the level, he goes, like, that's a book that I wish I had written. What's the name of the book because it's got here I'm looking it up. I think it's the hidden tools of story. Um, it is. I'm looking at it right now. Um, but Matt bird Okay, I'm going to put it in just when I put the link in the description. Yeah, put it link in because that book I have referred to people and my my clients have been blown away by it. Like, literally, I dog eared so many pages. It was crazy. I'm I also love Crispo where I also love Michael Haig. Sure, no, I am a key Oh, here it is. I am a huge of the secrets of story. Okay, so it's called the secrets of story, innovative tools for protecting your fiction.

Okay, great. So um, so the Yeah, that will give you an I'm, I'm a very spiritual writers. So the type of

Alex Ferrari 57:34
authors that I'm drawn toward are people who think in the same way. Perfect. Now, what lesson took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Jen Grisanti 57:47
Ah, probably, you know, I do think the idea that I'm always learning is,

Listen, before you speak, like, really? Listen, I think the biggest gift and I do practice every day is really like, I think what we tend to do, certainly in the writers room, and meetings, and everything else is we tend to, like, either defend, or get ahead of like, we're, we're hearing but we're already thinking of our answer that we're not really listening. So I would say the thing that I am always, I feel like the greatest gift we give each other is our time and our attention. So so that is something I think when I think about my, my arc of growth in the business, and I think of when when we first start our careers, we always think, oh my god, we have to speak up. We have to say stuff, we have to make a point and and you do but you don't want to do it, just to do it. You only want to do it when you truly have something to say.

Alex Ferrari 59:03
And what are three of your favorite films of all time.

Jen Grisanti 59:06
I would say my very favorite film of all time is the lives of others, which is a German film that won

best foreign film won the Oscar for Best Foreign Film in 2007.

That is definitely and then I would say The King's Speech, I think was beyond perfect film.

I also I would say I mean there are so many that I love that it's ridiculous but I wish there were more I say that there are so many I'm talking over like a 10 year period. I wish there were more and one year Birdman I have to say like one word man, I watched I saw Birdman three or four times. Like for me that was that was just brilliant. It's it's a

At that movie when I when I saw that movie, I was watching the screener. And I was like, oh, that's what a director does. Yes. Yeah. Oh, I forgot, cuz I haven't done so long. Yeah, that's what a director does. It is. It's fascinating when you see something too, like, what I can say like, there was an remember when I first watched The Hurt Locker. And I thought, oh my god, there's something so special here, but I have to watch it again, because I feel like I missed some of it. And when I watched it again, it was so impactful. To really see just where true brilliance comes from, and and how we feel story, you know, so Yeah, Mommy, she did make one of the greatest action movies of the 90s. Obvious Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yay for Katherine.

No, now, um, what can people find you online? They can find me. Very easy. Jen. grisanti.com. So I, that's very easy. My email is Janet. Jen Grisanti comm also very easy. And if you Google me, you can find out everything there is to know just like I've mentioned that you should do on every person who you go to meet. I also have to recommend to like it. I don't know. Are you familiar with film courage? Yeah, I know them. Sure. So it's interesting because Phil, I did an interview for film cards that they divided it into, like 10 parts. And I have so many people who say, Oh, my God, I learned so much through that. So that that's, that's if you want to know me and understand my philosophy. That is that dives pretty deep into it. Great. I'll put some of those in the show notes as well. Ryan, thank you so much for taking the time

on your show, and I love everything you're doing and I'm honored to be a part of it. And I love that you are getting out the word out and helping writers. I think there's nothing better. Thank you again, so much. All right, thank you.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:08
I want to thank Jen for being on the show and dropping those major knowledge bombs on the tribe. Thank you again, Jen. And if you want to get links to anything we discussed in this episode, including her contact information, her books or courses, things like that, just head over to indie film hustle.com forward slash BPS zero to one. And if you haven't already, please head over to screenwriting podcast.com And leave us a good five star review. It really helps to show out a lot. We are still a young show and trying to get ranked higher and higher on iTunes. So every review counts. So please head on over. And as always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 704: From Short Film to Hollywood Blockbuster with David F. Sandberg

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Alex Ferrari 2:00
Enjoy today's episode with guest host, Jason Buff.

Jason Buff 2:05
Now I want you to imagine I want us all to close our eyes and imagine something you're sitting in your apartment one day you and your wife and you have always wanted to make a horror film, but you don't really know what the next step is. So you see these horror competitions and you say, You know what, let's enter into one of these horror competitions and see how it goes using just the resources you know, you don't have a lot of money. So just using the camera that you have and the equipment that you have, you're going to create a horse short and submit it to one of these competitions just to see what happens. And not only do you win the competition, but your video becomes a huge viral sensation. Suddenly, your you know, Vimeo videos and YouTube videos are being downloaded by 1000s and 1000s of people and not too long after that you start getting phone calls from people in Los Angeles that you know want to have meetings with you. Now fast forward a little bit to you know, being invited, you're invited to Los Angeles by new line. And before long, you're sitting in a meeting with James Wan talking about making a feature film version of your short this is more or less what happened to David F. Sandberg in 2013 when his short lights out became a huge viral sensation. And on June 22, the feature film version of Lights Out starring Maria Bello and produced by James one will be coming to a theater near you all right now on with the show

David F. Sandberg 3:26
Came here. My wife Laura and I a little over a year ago now. But it all happened really fast. Because it was like, you know, we got the call that yeah, lights out the movie is getting made. So can you get on a plane next week? So we flew over and yeah, we went back home just over Christmas now. But that's that's it. Now it's been weird. Like, it all happened so fast. When we first got here we just were the first like nine months or so or whatever we stayed in the Airbnb is around town. And it's just now this year that we've gotten a proper apartment to stay.

Jason Buff 4:08
So it was really like, I mean, well, let me ask you, first of all, how was how was living in LA? Because I've lived there. And it was very difficult. I mean, I and I'm from the US, you know, so it was kind of a culture shock for me. Are you guys like settling in and feeling more at home? Are you are you there permanently? Are you going to go back to Sweden?

David F. Sandberg 4:29
I mean, right now, it's pretty permanent because we've rented out our apartment back in Sweden. And I mean, as long as things keep going, well here we'll stick around, you know, right. But But yeah, it's a lot different from Sweden. But both good and bad. You know, the weather's always great. And there's a lot of cool stuff here. And that Yeah, I mean, we love it. So far. We haven't seen a lot of the other parts of us. We've only been to California. We went to Las Vegas for a day for cinema con. Right? This is all we know, like, we want to see more of the states.

Jason Buff 5:09
Yeah, you gotta go. Well, I'm from North Carolina. So you should definitely head that way. And kind of see something. LA is very, it's cool, but it's very different from the rest of the US.

David F. Sandberg 5:18
Yeah, that's, I can imagine. It's, it's, it's a unique place. It feels like

Jason Buff 5:24
The people that rented your old apartment know that that was where the short was filmed.

David F. Sandberg 5:30
Now, yeah, that's one of our friends who who's actually in, we met a short called picture, and she's the queen in the picture. So yeah, she knows and she thinks it's cool. Like, she has people over and it's like, Hey, this is the lights out apartment. Whoa. Yeah.

Jason Buff 5:48
That's cool. Well, what I want to do is I got a lot of stuff I want to talk about, and I want to be very conscience. conscious of your time.

David F. Sandberg 5:56
Let's I mean, it's Saturday today, so there's no work today. So that's, that's fine.

Jason Buff 6:00
Okay. So what what is, what are you guys doing right now? I mean, I assume the, you know, pictures locked in what what's kind of going on right now? And you're like, what's your week full of right now?

David F. Sandberg 6:11
Right now? It's pre production on Annabelle two. So, yeah, we're shooting in six weeks. Okay, so it's getting close, lot to lot to prepare.

Jason Buff 6:26
Is there anything you can I mean, that story wise, but I mean, what, when you say you're preparing to shoot, what is that kind of mean? Are you working on? Is the screenplay ready? Are you working on?

David F. Sandberg 6:37
There's still tweaks being done on the screenplay, but also, you know, we're casting people, we're scouting some of the locations we still haven't figured out yet. And this one has a bigger budget than lights out. So we're shooting it on a stage on the Warner Brothers lot, which is awesome. So we're the house has been the sets are being built, you know, and there's, you know, some budget issues like, hey, maybe we can, you know, we're a little bit over, maybe we can cut out this room of the house, a lot of stuff like that back and forth

Jason Buff 7:09
As the way you think about it changed now that you I mean, I would assume that walking into lights out the feature, you probably still had a lot of those ideas in your head about oh, there's ways to save money and cut corners and do this and you start working with a studio and it's kind of like, oh, okay, well, there actually is some money to spend on this.

David F. Sandberg 7:29
Well, I mean, I had no idea. I mean, I've, I'm so lucky to have skipped all of these steps. You know, like I went from making no budget shorts, which is locked on me back in Sweden, right into making Hollywood studio features. Like, I've never made an independent movie or anything. Like I've never been on a real film set until lights out. Right, which was scary as hell. And there was so much like, you know, I put so much pressure on myself as well, just like, This is my shot, you know, better not screw it up. Because, you know, then I'll go back to Sweden and never do a movie again. So, yeah, that was intense. And it was just so much to learn, like, you know, I know how to sort of make a little movie, like how to tell a story. But everything around it was just new, the whole the studio thing and just working with so many people, you know, I'm used to shooting myself and editing myself and doing all of that stuff. And now I had to work with other people for the first time and just working with a writer and yeah, there. I had, like, I'd wake up in the middle of the night being all stressed out and like, I have these things where I wake up, and I'm half asleep and I hallucinate. And I'd see like the whole crew standing around my bed just waiting. And I'd be like, Wait, what are we doing? What? Why? So hopefully now on Annabelle, I know a little bit more what to expect, and maybe we'll have a little less nightmares. Right?

Jason Buff 9:05
So your confidence is better going through this? Or did you look at the finished film and just kind of sit back and be like, holy crap. I did this.

David F. Sandberg 9:15
Yeah, no, I mean, but that happened to like, just during editing, you know, we were cutting the scene with between Maria Bello and Teresa Palmer. They have this argument and it's like, Shit, I actually directed this, like, a real movie with real actors. And yeah, that was there's been a lot of those moments, especially because of the beginnings of the whole thing. Like I'd see people you know, painting the sets and stuff like that. And I'd have this feeling of these people are working on this. Just because lotto and I made this little short, you know, just an evening back in Sweden, which is insane.

Alex Ferrari 9:56
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Jason Buff 10:05
Did you ever run into because I remember reading stories about when, for example, James Cameron was making aliens. And nobody really knew who he was. So they were kind of like, Oh, this guy didn't know what that, you know, he was making the best or movies of all time. But the people on the set, were just kind of like, Who's this guy doesn't and he was, you know, he was, I think it was on a British set, too. So everybody was like, Is this you know, America,

David F. Sandberg 10:27
I saw that documentary as well, which is, I love that. It's one of my favorite movies as well. But yeah, I There were definitely elements of that have, you know, it's some there was this feeling of some people on the crew, like, you know, they're doing me a favor, because I'm this nobody from, from Sweden and the they've worked on all these big movies. And it led to some friction in some places, where it's like, some arguments with the camera department and where they, you know, try to tell them, like, No, you don't need to do that. And I was like, No, we need to do that. Like, I know what I'm doing. So it led to arguments about stupid stuff as well. Like, how, how cameras work. And like, because they were telling me that there was this one shot that they were telling me you can just you can shoot at high speed, and then decide in post if you want it to be slow motion or regular speed. And I was telling them, but But no, because the shutter speed will then look, you know, the shutter angle will look, it will look like you know, the opening of Saving Private Ryan, if you?

Jason Buff 11:42
Yeah, so, what 48

David F. Sandberg 11:44
So they were telling me that, no, the shutter speeds always the same. And I was became this whole argument, and I was like, but then why do you need more light when you shoot high speed changes? And it was like,

Jason Buff 11:57
Like, damn, this guy knows what he's doing.

David F. Sandberg 11:59
Yeah, I mean, stupid arguments like that. But I mean, it got better, you know, further into production, everything did but when we sort of got to know each other and what we knew and didn't know.

Jason Buff 12:14
Yeah. What were you shooting on

David F. Sandberg 12:17
Yeah, the Alexa.

Jason Buff 12:19
Right, right. Was there ever I mean, if I was you, and I was kind of like, I mean, cuz you're a do it yourself kind of guy. Yeah, I would just be like looking over everybody's shoulder and be like, Okay, what do you guys, you know, and just like, in between directing, just kind of, like, all the time.

David F. Sandberg 12:33
I mean, this was my home school in a way like, I didn't go to film school. And now I was I was getting paid for. So it was a lot of that. Okay, so you're lighting it like that? You're putting it there. Okay, cool, was like, you know, finding stuff.

Jason Buff 12:49
Is there anything that kind of maybe you can share that jumps out at you at like in terms of just purely like cinematography? Were there any things that you just kind of were surprised by that? You? You know, having done things yourself? You're like, Oh, I didn't realize this is actually how they do it on a film set not to put you on the spot.

David F. Sandberg 13:11
No, but I don't know. I mean, I think I I mean, I read a lot like I read like the American cinematographer, and all of those things. So I try to keep up as much as possible. So nothing really surprised me that much. No, it was just being there and seeing in real life, you know, on a full set that was was interesting, but I mean, you know, the lighting it feels like it's the same thing when you're doing it yourself with what little you have. It's just on a bigger scale, and you have more fun toys really?

Jason Buff 13:52
Was there ever a moment when you were like, is there like an Ikea around that? I can? Yeah, is there is there's an I when I was there, I mean, I was there back in like 99. So it's been a while but there was a brand new IKEA. And it was like a huge deal. I mean, this is off the point, but I just happen to remember that because I think it's kind of a funny idea. Have you been like, you know if you just get a trash kid? Yeah, we do have money here, man.

David F. Sandberg 14:15
Yeah. Now with IKEA is awesome. I built my own my trash cans here as well bought some lights. I found out that the light bulbs here don't dim. They do in Sweden for some reason. The fluorescent the LED bulbs are some

Jason Buff 14:34
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, some of them do. And I mean, you have to kind of look for him, but the US is really, and I haven't lived in the US since in since 2002. I actually live in Mexico. Now. I do everything from Mexico. But you know, I'm amazed when I go back because here everything is so energy efficient, and everybody has LED bulbs or fluorescent and then I go back to the US and it's always amazing to me that that still hasn't kind of caught on you know people have them but they're not Uh, as you know, I don't know how it is in Sweden.

David F. Sandberg 15:03
No sweetness. I think they've, like banned regular light bulbs. Right? We can even buy them anymore. You can probably just steal some old stock probably. But it's mostly LEDs and compact fluorescents.

Jason Buff 15:18
You guys are so you know, so far ahead with everything. Yeah. I actually lived in Finland for a while. Yeah. And that for a while, but for for half of the year I went to school in yo ensue. So we were we were up in that area for a long time. And we pass through Sweden. I got lost in Sweden for a while and but it's just it's one of my favorite countries in the world.

David F. Sandberg 15:41
It's great in the summer, but in the winter, it's just gray and dark for so long. There's like, not enough sunlight. Maybe I'll miss it eventually. But now it's just it's here. It's sunny all the time.

Jason Buff 15:56
Yeah, you get actually I got kind of tired of it being sunny. All I missed the snows the coziness of having like your coffee and being inside and, you know,

David F. Sandberg 16:07
Maybe

Jason Buff 16:10
Around Christmas time, I think you start kind of like, like when you have your first warm Christmas is always really bizarre.

David F. Sandberg 16:16
Yeah, I mean, we went home for Christmas. But that was the thing as well. Like we were thinking that maybe when we were back in Sweden, we will feel that now this is our home. We don't want to go back to LA. But when we got home, it was gray and dark. And we both got Vinter winter vomit disease lotto nights, we would like just throw one up. Yeah, we couldn't wait to get back.

Jason Buff 16:39
Okay, well, what I want to do is kind of go back and talk a little bit about your biography, I guess, you know, and how you got into this. And I was wondering if you could start a little bit by just talking about where you were at what what you what led up to making the original shorts. And as far as I was lights out the first shorts you made? Or was it like after making a few more because it's listed in IMDb is like the third or fourth one you man.

David F. Sandberg 17:09
I mean, it was the second one I made with that loss. And I made together. So what happened was, you know, I've been making little shorts and stuff ever since I was a kid, you know, borrowed my dad's video camera. But then, as I got an older, it got more sort of difficult to you know, get your friends together and make movies. So I started playing around with animation. Because that was something you could do all by yourself. And what happened was when YouTube was new, this was in 2005, I made an animated short that became like a viral hit in Scandinavia. And that led to me getting a lot of job offers to do like commercials and videos for different companies with my sort of brand of animated humor. So I did that for a few years. But eventually, I felt that, you know, what I really wanted to do was live action genre stuff. So you know a lot and I we made this movie called cam closer, which we really enjoyed doing just a two and a half minute short. And we tried getting like in Sweden, you have the Swedish Film Institute that gives grants to movies, shorts and features. And that's pretty much how we finance films. But they they weren't very interested in financing genres stuff. Like we tried several times to get just some little bit of money to make horror shorts. And they said no, every time. So we figured, you know, screw it, you know, I have a camera, and we can do stuff ourselves just in our apartment. So yeah, lights out was the second one we did. And yeah, it became this whole crazy thing.

Jason Buff 19:02
Now, just to get into the nuts and bolts, because I was curious about this, you had you were working with the Blackmagic Cinema Camera. Yeah. What? What was just from a purely nerd point of view, what was your decision to get that camera versus some of the other ones that are out here?

David F. Sandberg 19:18
Well, I mean, I started when, you know, when I was younger, I got like a consumer DV camera and started shooting shorts with my friends. And then I actually got a grant like a cultural stipend or whatever it's called, so I could buy an HD camera. And I've never had a lot of money to buy cameras. But then I saw about this Blackmagic camera that was coming on to the shooting RAW, which was very interesting to me, because you know, when you're shooting like H 264 stuff, you can't shoot the compression when you shoot dark stuff. It just breaks apart in the shadows.

Alex Ferrari 20:04
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David F. Sandberg 20:13
So, I really wanted that camera so we I have a producing friend in Sweden who we got some money to do a short called Wallace which is sort of like an you could say that sort of like an anti bullying film or something. That's the kind of stuff you can get money from for this from the Swedish Film Institute. You know, we got money to do a documentary about a Thai Lady Boy and like, more sort of important subjects I guess. But because we got some money to do Wallace, I could buy the Blackmagic Cinema Camera finally so that's what we used to do she lets out but the the the short shot before that cam closer I shot on the Panasonic GH one. So I had to have a lot of sort of lights that just to have a break apart in the shadows.

Jason Buff 21:09
I've always heard that the Blackmagic wasn't that great with shooting in low light, though, right?

David F. Sandberg 21:14
Well, not low light that shadows like so. Okay, in lights up. You know, when she that bedside table lamp. There's actually like a 375 watt bulb, photo bulb. Oh, what I did like, so there's a lot of light, but it's not evenly lit. You know? So I could. And that works out great. So if you're not shooting, if you're not trying to bring the shadows up, but just bringing everything down instead, it works great. So you still need light, but you don't have to evenly light your scene.

Jason Buff 21:59
So that was the same one you had with. Closer, right when you did the trash can thing. Yeah, that really close to lots of space so that everything else would be black. And you would just turn down the the aperture or the

David F. Sandberg 22:14
Yeah, so that one I've used for all of our shorts, except for the very latest one called closet space because that one I used to pocket camera for so what happened was that when we moved over here, I didn't bring my cinema camera. And I was kind of missing my camera almost, you know, when I was over here. So when I got started getting paid for lights out, I bought the pocket camera. And we actually use that on some stuff for lights out the feature. And that's, you know, now since I've been back this weekend, I've actually brought my, the cinema camera with me as well. So I have both the cinema camera and the pocket camera. But they're great cameras.

Jason Buff 23:00
Yeah, I thought it was really interesting on your video talking about the trailer. And by the way, I really I can't tell you how much it means to indie filmmakers to get to see the behind the scenes stuff because it's, you know, you're in a very unique position to be able to let us in on a lot of that stuff. Because we're all kind of watching. And, you know, there's a lot of stuff that that we don't know, you know, and you know, all those videos, like I mean, there's just little tips that are are kind of like, oh, well, I didn't know it was that easy to do that or whatever, you know. But did you have any any resistance to shooting with the pocket cam for those that each hit the like the old eight millimeter super eights.

David F. Sandberg 23:47
The only resistance was that I was shooting it. So what happened was we went to this, like abandoned hospital to shoot some stuff. And um, you know, I was telling them, like the studio, like, you know, I could shoot that myself, you know, I just need the actors and my little pocket camera. And they were like, you know, they didn't really believe in that or something. I don't know. So what happened was, we went there with the whole crew, and shots and stuff with the Alexa and none of that Alexa stuff is in the movie. So like between setups, I would borrow the the cast and just go shoot these little snippets of film. And that's the only thing that wound up in the movie, but the only thing they were sort of afraid of was me shooting it myself just because of union stuff and all that like if it's the cinematographers union would be upset about me shooting stuff myself or something, but I don't know.

Jason Buff 24:47
Yeah, I've heard a lot about ah, I heard some of that, you know, with some of the other stuff that I've been involved with where it was like, I just wanted to go and shoot B roll with a like a five If D or something, yeah. And the cinematographer was kind of like, that's like, you're really not supposed to do that, you know, but when you're used to shooting your own stuff, you don't even think about that kind of thing.

David F. Sandberg 25:12
Yeah, I mean, that that was also the thing with the effects. Because I, we shot, for example, we shot at a school where we weren't allowed to show the name of the school. So I was telling the line producer that, you know, I can just paint that out on my laptop, you know, with open source software. But he was like, No, I mean, it has to go through the proper channels, and we don't have that in the VFX budget. So instead, the production designer had to paint or make a physical sign and actually hang it up over the real sign, which just felt stupid. But then, when we were in post, I did a lot of work. Some, like 15 or so the effects shots myself. And then it was alright, because, you know, the VFX. Guys, you know, unfortunately for them, they don't have a union. So that was sort of all right, with me doing a bunch of VFX shots myself.

Jason Buff 26:10
That kind of gives you the their vote of approval with the stuff that you did.

David F. Sandberg 26:15
Yeah, I mean, no one said anything like we showed it to people like you. I mean, the studio know that I was doing some of the stuff and they didn't mind united for free. So you know, when when?

Jason Buff 26:28
Yeah, were you now one of the things that I see that you use? And you mentioned this in one of your videos, is that you'd like to use open source software like blender?

David F. Sandberg 26:38
Yeah, I mean, that's it started out just because I didn't have any money. And I was homemakers like, Oh, hey, this free software is free. And it was a bit of a learning curve. I think blenders gotten a lot better recently. But you know, since it was free, and was pretty much the only option, I sort of powered through and learned it.

Jason Buff 27:03
Did you just learn by creating projects? or was there some sort of resource that you were using?

David F. Sandberg 27:08
This is sort of a common, I mean, mostly, if I wanted to find out how to do a specific thing I or sort of a specific thing. I just searched YouTube for tutorials on that. Otherwise, it would like blender guru has a lot of cool tutorials. And now on blender nation, you can find a lot of cool stuff as well. So, yeah, but mostly just doing like, trying to find out what can and can't do. Right.

Jason Buff 27:39
Now talking about horror in general, I was wondering if we could talk a little bit about why your shorts, really, I mean, they're very effective in terms of, you know, having a kind of universal idea behind them something that's very much, you know, something that connects with people, you know, no matter where they are. Can you talk a little bit about how you developed your ability to kind of me know, it's not just like cheap jumpscares there's actually some, you know, there's a lot of, you know, story to it, and things that are going on almost subconsciously while you're watching it. How did you kind of develop your technique in terms of, you know, when you're watching the, the short lights out? What What were your influences and things that you were like, Okay, this is how I'm going to, you know, really suck people in and then scare the hell out of them. If that makes sense. It's a long.

David F. Sandberg 28:38
I mean, I, when I started making horror shows with friends, there were a lot of fake blood and stabbing and stuff like that, which I sort of got tired of. And I'm more into sort of suspense and sort of playing with fun ideas and stuff. So I mean, just the main thing with with the short was that, you know, we tried to have not just a bunch of scares, but just have that scare in the beginning to get you on the edge just because then you know, that, okay, anything can jump out at any moment, but then not have another scare until the end. So it's just tension up until that point, because whenever you have a jump scare, you sort of deflate the tension and you have to start over again, you know, because you sort of, you can laugh because you jumped or, or whatever. I don't know, I just just love mood and sort of tension and try to keep that maintain for as long as possible.

Alex Ferrari 29:49
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Jason Buff 29:58
Are you thinking to yourself, are you You're kind of like, okay, this is what I want people to be thinking at this moment or feeling at this moment. And just trying to kind of like, I mean, there's a great moment when Lata tapes, the light, and that's kind of like, that's a little bit of comic relief. I think that I mean, I don't know if it was planned like that. And it's very similar to the moment where she drops the, I guess it's like a pearl or something, or the marble or something into the No, yeah, right thing. And there's always there's, there's like, it seems like there's a, it's like, it leads up there's something that's like, okay, we're supposed to sit there and be like, Okay, what, what's going on? What is this? You know, and a lot of it's the thing that I love about your shorts is so much is done with sound? There's not these cheesy FX, you know, CDs, or whatever, you know, I mean, it's all done purely, like quiet, and you just hear these little subtle noises.

David F. Sandberg 30:58
Yeah, I mean, I love playing with expectations. Because there's nothing more boring when you watch a movie and you, you already know, every beat is going to play, you know. So that's what I hope to achieve, to play with extra typical expectations. And that's something very proud of in the feature that they a lot of some of the characters, they don't do the typical stupid horror movie character stuff and get themselves killed. So, you know, people who have seen the film are like, Oh, he's going to die now. And then it turns out, no, he's actually smart, and he's going to get away. But also, as far as the humor, you know, yeah, I've been doing sort of humorous animation for a long time. So I like to have that little bit of humor in it. And, in fact, in lights out nuts, I mean, the tape was definitely supposed to be a little moment, brief moment of humor. But the face at the end, to me was supposed to be humorous as well, because it's this sort of face that turns off the lights, but most people are. They don't see the humor, but

Jason Buff 32:08
Kind of a twisted humor problem.

David F. Sandberg 32:09
Yeah. No, but I like that. Because there's no there's funny moments in the the feature as well. That's, that's not very evident in the trailer they released but people, you know, that that's, I love seeing the future with an audience because they laugh and clap, and they cheer and like, it's the best. It's like horror and comedy, are the best sort of films to see with an audience really?

Jason Buff 32:39
Yeah, I think that one of the things that a lot of horror movies don't get right as the humor, you know, they think that everything is supposed to be just okay, scary. jumpscares you know, somebody's walking with a flashlight, and then jumpscare, and they don't really develop the characters at all, you know, they don't really work on the story, we have,

David F. Sandberg 33:00
I think you need that sort of dynamic range in movies, you know, like, because then, you know, if everything is just depressive darkness, you know, then means you need the lighter moments as well just to have the difference between the two and the same in comedies. If it's just silly the whole time. It's not as good as if you have some emotional depth times you just need variation really. And I think no movies, has this needs to be serious enough that you can have some light moments.

Jason Buff 33:38
What would you consider I was actually watching one of your other interviews, and you mentioned jumpscares that were just kind of cheap. jumpscares Yeah. And I was wondering if you had kind of an example of what is like an urn jumpscare versus one that's just the cheap one thrown in there for effect.

David F. Sandberg 34:00
Now, the cheap ones are the typical, you know, the cat jumping out from a cupboard or something or the friend putting a hand on the shoulder or just stuff that's not that's not part of a scare, you know, like it needs to come from whatever it is that scary. So, I mean, for instance, take an example from James Juan from insidious you know, the Red Demon face. I mean, that sits behind Patrick Wilson.

Jason Buff 34:30
I think that's such a great scene.

David F. Sandberg 34:32
Yeah. Because that's really well made because you have you have her telling the story and setting the mood. And then you even have that sound design that crackly sound design sort of creeping in a little bit for you see the the face. I mean, you can have jumpscares like, I think is one is it Paranormal Activity two or something like that all the cupboards open at once. And it's like, you know, it's just quiet just someone sitting in a kitchen doing nothing, it's just boring. And then bam, all these kitchen cabinets fly open. And, of course, you're going to jump because it's unexpected, but it's not part of, it's not really scary, you know, it's not, it's not building to anything. So I think those are the sort of lace your jumpscares, because you can make people jump there easily, they just have to be unprepared. But to make them to put them in that mood, and then make them jump is a lot more fun and effective.

Jason Buff 35:36
So is there like a choreography to it that you're like, Okay, here's this, like, when you watch and Sidious. And I want to talk about James one and just a second. And, you know, it seems very, you know, I don't know exactly how he approaches it, but it seems like okay, this is we're going to create this jumpscare you know, we're gonna put it together and it's got certain beats to it. Yeah. Is there like, as you're going through the screenplay, and everything are you like, Okay, we need to have, you know, certain moments that are going to be like this, and you just kind of start putting them together? I mean, how does that all work?

David F. Sandberg 36:14
This sort of come naturally from the situation. So that's what I tried to do, at least to just build from the situations the characters are in, and then not to have them just be like a singular scare, but actually haven't be part of a longer sequence. And I think that's sort of James's mo as well to not just have bandages scare, and now it's normal scene, and bam, there's a scare, but it's actually something that builds you have. Things start going crazy. And then they get even creepier, you have a little bit of a scare, and then it just ramps up and it stretches out for longer than just have those brief punctuation scares, you know? Do you work?

Jason Buff 37:02
Are you conscious of the like the compression and expansion of times you're going through like this is gonna go by real fast. And then once we get to this suspenseful scene, let's just drag it out as much as we can.

David F. Sandberg 37:13
Pretty much yeah, we'll just Yeah, I mean, all scenes need, you need to find that sort of rhythm of when to compress and when to expand. But yeah, for when you're when you're in those tense moments, you really want to expand as much as possible without without going overboard, you know, you can have people just walking through a hallway for way too long.

Jason Buff 37:39
You do that in editing, you're just kind of like Okay, let's try it a little shorter. Okay, little Okay, little I mean, do you like, sit there and just nitpick exactly when is the right moment?

David F. Sandberg 37:49
Kinda Yeah, I mean, it's. Yeah, I mean, I have a pretty clear, I plan these things out in advance so much that it's not that much that can change in editing, I guess. But. But yeah, then then it's finding the sound effects as well to work with, and just where the sound design because a lot of movies have that that's something that happened in the initial sound design on the outside as well that they the sound guys were putting in. They were sort of giving away the scares with the sounds like they had sounds building up to a scare or like, they just had a tendency to put in too much sound and telegraphing everything that was going to happen. So that was a bit of a struggle.

Jason Buff 38:37
There's nothing scarier to me than being in a horror film. And all of a sudden, there's like, no sound. I mean, that's the scariest. Yeah, it's scary. She can do because you know, something's gonna happen.

David F. Sandberg 38:47
Yeah, and that was the thing with the music as well for the feature that I didn't want a lot of music for the scarier prospect. We can have use it whenever else. But let's go quiet. And let's just have the scenes play out. As they aren't, you know?

Jason Buff 39:04
Now, moving back, I kind of jumped forward, talking about lights out when that became a big, you know, kind of a viral success. What were you contacted by other people? I mean, what what was that kind of like, when you realize that people were kind of sharing it? I mean, I think it had like, 20,000 or 20 million views or something like like crazy. Yeah.

David F. Sandberg 39:27
Well, first sort of people, just random people contacted us and said, they want to work with us. And you know, like actors and like this one guy who does special effects for movies, like big blockbuster movies. It was like, Hey, I'd love to work with you. And I was like, Yeah, I'd love that too. But, you know, it's just me and locked down on our apartment in Sweden with no money. It's like, how's that going? But then, I actually, you know, we started getting contacted by these people on by journalists and I actually said look like, you know,

Alex Ferrari 40:02
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David F. Sandberg 40:11
I've heard that people in Hollywood, you know, get representative, but people get representation from Hollywood, through like viral videos and stuff that agents, managers, you know, look at Vimeo staff pics and stuff like that. And it was just like a day after I said that I woke up and I had my first email from a management company here. And then it was just all at once, like, I got contacted by me, managers and agents and producers and studios. And it was just insane. Like, I had to put together a spreadsheet with everyone I talked to, and what I what was said the last time. And yeah, so we're like, so, you know, first of all, I had to sort of choose manager and agent, which was a great position to be in because I had all these options, but at the same time, I knew nothing about them. Because when you Google these management companies or agencies, you know, they don't they hardly have webpages, because they don't want people contacting them like that. They'll contact you if you've done something they're interested in. Right? So I had a, I got like an IMDb Pro account, so that I could at least see like who these guys were representing. Just to get a feel for who they were. And yeah, it was a crazy time, because because of the time difference, you know, during the day, I just have a normal day. And then during the evening and the night, it was just phone calls with Hollywood every day.

Jason Buff 41:47
So you still had like a normal day job when this was all going on?

David F. Sandberg 41:51
Yeah, I mean, my job at the time was pretty much a freelance animator, right, which is code word for broke. Because I was doing this on my own, and I'm terrible with charging for my work. So they were like, Hey, so how much do you want to make this one minute commercial? And it's like, oh, well, you know, it's not that hard to do. So I can really charge a lot of money for it. And yeah, so. And that guy was, that was the thing as well, that once I picked a manager, they were like, Hey, so can you fly out to LA, because we want you to meet all these people. And you know, go on this, go to all these producers and studios and stuff like that. I'm like, Nope, I don't have money. So all I could do was sort of Skype with people for the time. But then, I got in contact with a producer called Lawrence gray. He was one of the first sort of producers I got in contact with who wants to make something out of lights out. And, you know, as soon as that started coming together, he he paid for me to fly out to LA. So we could meet, you know, James Juan in the studio and get everyone on board. And that when we were out here, that's when I did the whole water bottle tour, as they call it, where you go to all these studios and producers and just have general meetings. And, you know, they offer you a bottle of water. And so yeah, so that

Jason Buff 43:26
How was that. I mean, was that like a total cultural shock for you?

David F. Sandberg 43:30
Yeah. I didn't know what you're supposed to do. But this is just a general meeting. So it's like, they just, they ask about you. And you know what, who you are and like, what you want to do. And then they give you their spiel about who they are, what they do. And then you can get their business card, and it's like, hey, let's keep in touch or something and you walk out over sometimes they might send you a script or something like, Hey, maybe this script is something for you. Yeah, but I just, yeah, it was all new. And then that's the thing as well, that after. So we were out here for a little over a week, I think. And one of the last scheduled things was to meet new line in the studio that was interested in, in doing lights out. And so after every general meeting, my agents would talk to, you know, like, checkup and also how was that the feedback they got was that I was very sort of reserved, and that, you know, I didn't talk a lot because, you know, I was very Swedish. And

Jason Buff 44:38
What do you want?

David F. Sandberg 44:39
Yeah. So, so I got this call from my agent that were my managers and they were telling me that you know, it's important when you meet the studio now that you know, you can show them that you're that you can be captain of the ship, you know, that you can be a director, take charge and it's like, Ah, I don't know how to do that. I just, you know, tried my best to just talk a lot and be, you know, I was sort of telling them about this. YouTube short, I made the got banned from YouTube because it was had a lot of, you know, giant dicks and vaginas and a lot of sex and stuff in it. You know, that made him laugh. So, you know, and you know, I got to break the movie, so must have done something, right.

Jason Buff 45:26
But your manager was like, Okay, that was a little too far. Stone it down now.

David F. Sandberg 45:30
Well, they weren't there. They just knew that. They called me. Well, yeah, they just called me back after I heard you killed it. Okay.

Jason Buff 45:40
So that was with new line. Yeah. Okay. So that how did these these, the project comes together? You're talking to the executives? I mean, you know, where does Where does James one come into the picture with all this?

David F. Sandberg 45:55
Well, it actually started with when I was talking to all these people in Hollywood, I, one of the managers I talked to had this client who had written a script that I really loved. Because I, you know, even before all this happened, I'd read a lot of scripts, like I, you know, every year they have the blacklist with the most read scripts, and most liked scripts in Hollywood, or whatever. So I'd made sure every year to find downloads of of the scripts, so I could read them just to see what good scripts are like. And this guy had written one of those blacklist scripts, a horror script that I really liked. So I got in touch with him, and started talking about lightside. Because when we made the short, we had no idea what what a feature would be, because we didn't expect to make a feature out of it. So I started talking to this writer here in LA, who had an idea for it. But his idea was very big. And I felt like, I don't think I could, I don't think I could handle that as my first movie. And I don't think people would give me that kind of budget, you know, just coming from having done nothing to do such a big thing. So instead, I had this idea of making a smaller, sort of more family based story that could be made for less money, which that writer wasn't as interested in. But that writer put me in touch with Lawrence Gray, the producer, and Lawrence Gray was still interested in that idea. So I wrote a treatment based on that idea, like a 15 page treatment or something. And Lawrence, new James won, like he had a meeting with him, and they want to do find something to do together. And he felt that this could be it. So he sent my treatment to James to read, which he liked. So that's when they flew me out here to LA to meet with James. And so we did that. And then because James has his relationship in new line, that's how they came in, you know, they, they work together a lot. And James has now his production company at the Warner a lot to make, you know, this kind of low budget horror movies with newline. And it just came together really fast and really smoothly. And people kept telling me, you know, that don't get used to that, because that's usually not how it happens. But yeah, it just worked out really well.

Jason Buff 48:35
You off the topic? Do you ever deal with like trolls and people who are just kind of being jerks about like, I mean, it is kind of a rapid rise to that kind of thing.

David F. Sandberg 48:47
That's what I was expected that people would sort of hate me because I got this that I got this lucky, you know, people should hate that. But instead, people at least on YouTube, and all the comments I've read, people are like, Hey, I'm so proud of you and like, yay. Like, oh, okay, great. Like, that doesn't seem to be jealousy. There's seems more to be like, Oh, hey, one of us actually got in the door of, of Hollywood, you know? Yeah. Which is how I feel about it, because I certainly don't feel Yeah.

Jason Buff 49:23
Well, I mean, I think if you had a you know, if you came out with sunglasses on, you're just like, you know, being all egotistical. Yay. I was a nice guy. What happened to the Vimeo guy that I used to? Screw you guys now I'm a big time player. No.

David F. Sandberg 49:40
Like, just the other day I was meeting with this actress for potentially for Annabelle, too. And, of course, they set up this meeting at Chateau Margaux Chateau Marmont year where you know you're supposed to meet celebrities

Alex Ferrari 49:59
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David F. Sandberg 50:08
And he's just just so awkward. Like he was like, she was like, Oh, well, let me give you my email and she put out her hand to sue. Because you want me to give her my phone to her. But when she stretched out her hand, I was like, Oh, she wants to shake my hand. Okay, so I shake her hand. It's like, she was like, No, your phones like, oh, okay, so, yeah, I think I'm always going to be that awkward.

Jason Buff 50:38
That probably I mean, you know, once you've have one, you've got one on your, you know, behind you. I think the next one, you're going to be a little more like, okay, the step I'm getting, you're gonna find your comfort zone, you know?

David F. Sandberg 50:49
Yeah, hopefully, it's just Yeah, it's weird. It feels like I'm just going along with everything. And just, okay. No, no, yeah. So far.

Jason Buff 51:00
I mean, I certainly can't speak from, you know, experience with that. But LA is a very bizarre town to, you know, which is the way people act. And I mean, I was, I was a, you know, lowest I was working as like a PA on stuff. And, you know, there was just this whole way that people talk and act that I just couldn't ever wrap my head around, you know, because I come from the south, and we're just kind of say, we, I don't know, it's just a different world.

David F. Sandberg 51:25
Yeah. And it's weird as far as like, I hope I don't turn into an asshole. But like, I mean, I started I get a lot of people were sending me like their shorts, like, Hey, can you watch my short or they send me scripts and stuff like that. And, you know, I watch them. But now the more time goes on, I'm getting so many shorts sent to me, like, I don't have time to watch them all. It's like, sorry, you know, like, yeah, I want to be a nice guy and helpful, but I just don't have the time.

Jason Buff 52:01
Now. Well, let me let me ask you a question about that. You know, you're you're in a situation now where you're seeing a lot of shorts. And your shorts were they were all very effective. What are the things that you see with people who are making maybe indie films, indie horror films, and making shorts and things like that, that maybe, is kind of like mistakes that you see people making in terms of, you know, not being really effective, as, you know, maybe jumpscares, or being scary or whatever, because there's a lot of filmmakers out there, making shorts trying to do what you're doing. And it's just not quite hitting the nail on the head.

David F. Sandberg 52:42
I mean, I'd say the biggest problem that I see is that they're too long, or that they don't get to it quickly enough. Even even the ones that are just three minutes or something like, I feel like with attention spans today, and especially online, you have to you have to keep up the pace. And just I think timing is just the biggest issue. The second biggest is probably sound that people don't, you know, spend enough time on sound like the lot of shorts can look great, because you have all these cameras and tools these days to make them look really expensive. But then people don't pay as much attention to sound and timing and sound. I'd say,

Jason Buff 53:29
What did you use to like? You? I assume you had like a digital recorder? Yeah. When you were shooting did you What did you use for like the kind of jumps those those sounds?

David F. Sandberg 53:42
Well, actually, I believe they didn't have for all of these shorts, I don't record sound when we're shooting, I replace all the sound in post. And that's something I started doing. As soon as I could edit, digitally, like on a computer, that's how I did it just replace every sound, even the dialogue just to have that control. Like, I may not be necessary to be that anal about it. But you know, that's that's been how I work with it. So and also I've always wanted to make sure that I could put these up without any copyright issues and stuff like that. So I've always been sort of afraid of like sound effects libraries or royalty free music and stuff like that, in case they weren't actually royalty free and stuff like that. So I've made a point of trying to record as much sound myself as that I can and just try and make my own music even even though it's not great. It's at least I know I can use it as much as I want. But yeah, I've just I have for a while there I used to record a lot of sounds just on my little I had assumed h four and just brought it with me When I was going places just because hey, maybe I'll find a cool sound.

Jason Buff 55:06
Yeah, like Ben Burtt. Sorry. Are you a fan of Ben Burtt?

David F. Sandberg 55:11
Yeah, absolutely. He's awesome. But yeah, just trying to gather as much sounds as I can keep in my little library.

Jason Buff 55:23
Do you? One of the things that I think is also really effective is not showing the monster, you know? Yeah. That I've seen a couple of shorts recently, where it was like, Oh, okay. That was the, that's the thing that we're supposed to be afraid of. And you look at it and kind of like, okay, that's quite, you know, no,

David F. Sandberg 55:41
Yeah, like we did this shortcode coffer where I kind of kind of regret showing a monster at the end there, because I don't think it was needed. But yeah, in general, I try to not show it as much. And even in the feature, you don't see a lot of the what she actually looks like. Because I mean, you're what you imagined something to be is always going to be scarier than whatever rubber suit you get made. Even though you have even though we had like, Oscar winning makeup artists created, you know? Yeah, I remember,

Jason Buff 56:15
I think it was Spielberg who was always saying that, you know, your what you bring, it doesn't matter how scary the monster is, what you have in your head is always going to be a lot scarier than anything we can create on screen.

David F. Sandberg 56:26
Yeah, I'm I. I'm a big believer in that.

Jason Buff 56:30
So I want to get into a little bit about talking with James one. And if you could describe meeting with him, because we your sounded very casual about that. But I mean, I think that for most of us, it would be kind of a big deal to meet, you know, somebody like James Wan, and to be able to kind of just see how his mind works. Can you talk a little bit about that?

David F. Sandberg 56:51
Well, there's a lot going on in his mind. I mean, that first time I met him, he was just, he had so many ideas. Like he was just saying, Hey, we do this, maybe that happened, maybe this could be that. And they were. So like, far apart from each other. And like from I mean, some were like, totally sort of opposite from the treatment I had, while others were very much in line with it. But it's like, so walking out of that meeting. I was like, am I supposed to incorporate ideas into the script or into the story? Because I can't do that. Like, there's just so many and so varied, you know, but he just has a lot of ideas. Now, but that first meeting was great, except for just freaking out with all the ideas he had. I mean, yeah, he's cool. I mean, he sort of started out with a short as well, I mean, saw as a short and about to make a feature over here. And yeah, it was just telling me a lot about just just to have fun with it. Because it's it's weird business in a weird process. So, but couldn't really listen to that on lifestyle, because I was freaking out, like, Oh, this is my chance, chance, I better make it awesome. Maybe for maybe for anabol be able to be a little more relaxed and have fun with it.

Jason Buff 58:18
What did you I mean, psychologically, was what did you have to do to kind of just say, Okay, I'm going to deal with this and just kind of move forward. And even though things are freaking me out? Um, I mean, did, I'm sure there was a certain aspect of your personality that was like, that has like this imposter syndrome, which is something we all have, oh, yeah. You know, of like, walking in somewhere and being like, Oh, well, you know, I'm just waiting for these guys to figure out that, you know, I'm a fake or whatever, you know, and that's not just, I mean, that's everybody's kind of has that, you know? Yeah, absolutely.

David F. Sandberg 58:51
And I mean, especially with this, it's like, how come they're letting me do this, like, do they? I have more experience than I actually do? Because I think maybe it was an advantage. But I was from Sweden. So for all they know, I could be huge in Sweden and have a big career there. But so, yeah, I mean, I just was this weird feeling of just going along with everything, just, you know, just like, there was no way to prepare. So it's just alright, I'll just go along and try to figure things out as best I can try to be as prepared as possible, do a lot of storyboards and just figure everything out as much as possible in advance. And there's just so much weirdness. Like when we've a little over a year ago, when we first got here. I was invited to this, you know, like I'm with the same agency as James Wan. And Furious seven had recently came out were made like a billion dollars or something. So a lot and I were invited to this party in James's honor. And we had just gotten here and that wasn't on film wasn't good. mean like, yeah, so we had no money.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:03
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David F. Sandberg 1:00:12
Like, we had borrowed from our families as much as we could, just to, you know, buy food and stuff. So we had no money at all. And we got invited to this party in this mansion in Beverly Beverly Hills, you know, and it's like, you know, Vin Diesel was there and Adrian Brody and it's like, What the hell are we doing here? It felt like we'd snuck into this thing. And so we were just sort of standing there talking to me that each other in Swedish, like keeping this appearance up of just casually talking, but we were just saying things like, This is so fucking weird. Like, what are we doing here? Like we, you know,

Jason Buff 1:00:49
Like, Oh, hey, Vin Diesel, how's it going?

David F. Sandberg 1:00:53
And I mean that that weirdness just hasn't stopped. Like when we went to cinema con recently because now we're doing publicity for light sound. Now we got to go on a private plane charted by Warner Brothers, you know, and diverse, like Samuel Jackson and Christoph Waltz. And just all these celebrities, Jared Leto, and on a private plane going to Vegas, this is so weird, like, I how can you can you ever get used to this?

Jason Buff 1:01:27
Is there anything that like kind of being in that world that surprised you that you kind of didn't think would be the way it actually is? It's kind of a vague question. But yeah, I mean, are people just kind of are people that are like that, you know, celebrities and stuff. When you're kind of hanging out at that level? Is it like, are they just kind of down to earth? And just like, kind of well, I mean, yeah,

David F. Sandberg 1:01:53
Well, I don't dare to talk to them anyways. Yeah, I talked to two Swedish celebrities, just briefly, Alexander Skarsgard. And Joel Kinnaman. But otherwise, it's like, I just feel so out of place that I can you know, I just keep them myself. Yeah. Yeah. But they seem like normal people, I guess. Yeah.

Jason Buff 1:02:17
Now, I want to go a little into pre production. And just talk about that a little bit. What was involved? How long was that process? Was it like, Okay, this is, when you're setting it all out? I assume that just from a complete, outsider's point of view, you've got I mean, who who's kind of your chief person that you're leaning on? Are you dealing with like a line producer? Are they giving you a certain you've got? Okay, this is your certain amount of time that you have to work on this. You're working on the screenplay with your writer? I mean, how is how does basically, pre production all come together? And then, you know, what are the kind of ways that you know, what are the things that you're doing? Yeah,

David F. Sandberg 1:02:58
I mean, first is sort of like a soft prep, I guess, when you're still just figuring out the screenplay. And you're sort of people are slowly starting to get hired like, yeah, line producers is was the one you sort of talked to a lot during pre production. And then all of a sudden, we, you know, you have a pre production office with all these people. And yeah, I mean, my first sort of thought before all of this was like, is this just going to be like me stepping onto a film set, and not knowing what the hell's going to happen or how things work. But during prep, I don't know how many, like real prep weeks, we had six, seven, or something on lights. But during prep, there's so much going through everything that once you get on set you you know, the movie Inside Out, you know, you have all these you do camera tests, you do like tech scouts, where you go through, you know, the whole location and just tell everyone, everything that's going to be shot and how it's going to be shot. And so it's just a lot of preparing and a lot of answering questions, because that's something that newline told me before it all started, like I went to dinner with these two executives, and they were like, you're gonna get a lot of questions, just answer them right away. Don't let them pile up until this big thing because even if you answer them wrong, we can always fix that on set. And all the questions were like, you know, what kind of car does this person drive what kind of shovel this this person pick up? And this seemed like stuff like that. Like there's a shot where someone picks up a shovel. So you get presented with like five different shovel options. And it's like, yeah, I want that shovel. And it's just so much weird. So many questions and it like it started. A gun burned out on giving answers. So I was actually buying a hamburger late one evening, and I like couldn't decide on the menu which burger to get. So I like I called my lockdown my wife and I was like, hey, just tell me what burger to get because I, I'm done with answers now so it's just, yeah, a lot of going through everything and figuring everything out lots of answering questions. And the weird thing on LightSail was that there was some casting issues. That ate up a lot of the pre production time, unfortunately. So, for example, Teresa Palmer wanted to do it pretty early on. But then there were some issues. Like, for example, we found out that she didn't actually have a visa, or like a work visa, because she's Australian. So like, she's married to an American. So we all figure like, well, she, you know, she's married to them. But it turned out that she, like, you have to be in the country for a certain number of days, consecutive days. And because she's an accuracy travels all over all the time. So she hasn't had that opportunity yet. So while that was figured out, we had to look for others. And yeah, was this whole thing where people got canceled very late. In fact, Maria Bello was cast, like a week or two into shooting the movie. So the first time I actually met her was like, five minutes before her first scene. So it's like, Oh, hey, nice to meet you. And action. So I was really lucky in the fact that we had such great actors that, you know, it's not like we needed all of that prep, like, they got into it really quickly. And were awesome. Because, you know, newline was saying, like, Yeah, this is the first time we've never had a table read before a shoe, because we just didn't have the cast. Oh, wow. And it also meant that, like Billy Burke is in the film, and he was cast even later than Maria Bello that he plays her husband. So all the, like, family photos in the house had to be just green pieces of paper, and then we'd have to, you know, put that post. So that was insane. But it worked out.

Jason Buff 1:07:25
Well talk a little bit about I think one of the things that intimidates directors, it certainly does me is the idea of, you know, working with an actor who is at that level, you know, what did you learn by, you know, working with those people? And what kind of what things can you share about what you learned about the directing actors?

David F. Sandberg 1:07:47
Well, I mean, something I've learned since I was younger, it's just that you're never going to get what's in your head, like, you have this sort of vision, about, I mean, the whole movie, really, but with accuracy, as well, that you hear them in your head saying things a certain way. But you're never gonna get that. I mean, if you try to just get them to say exactly this in exactly this way, it's just not going to be good. So my approach is just to go sort of, to not go against the grain and let the actors sort of find, or whatever. So for the first, like, for the first take, and not give them much direction at all, and just see what, what would come out of them. And if it was too far from what I wanted, we'd talk about it and we'd try it again, you know, but, yeah, in general, I just, I mean, they were so great that it was just, it wasn't very difficult. It wasn't like I had to pull a good performance out of it just sort of came naturally. And we just did. tweaked it a little bit. Yeah. But yeah, it was sort of intimidating. Like you know, Maria Bella, which I'm a huge fan of John she's in love a history of violence, which he's in and like, she's a nurse and all that. And, but, you know, she's like Karachi, come in and just nail it. And she would also sort of talk about, like, almost give tips or like, when she was walking working with Gabrielle cool kid in the film, she sort of come over to me and like, you know, he's doing this, this, maybe you can talk to him about that. So, which is very helpful.

Jason Buff 1:09:34
Yeah, I've found also that on some of the indie, you know, really low budget stuff. If you have one really good actor in there. A lot of times they kind of become the default, like acting teacher for everybody. So it's like, if you have a film, get at least one. I mean, you and your case, you've got a bunch of great actors.

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Jason Buff 1:10:01
But I mean, in that case, it's like, everybody's game goes up when you have somebody who is really,

David F. Sandberg 1:10:06
Yeah. Maria and and Teresa, lay mother and daughter were just awesome. Like, we have this scene where they're sort of a little bit of an emotional scene between them. And it's like, everyone who was there and saw that it was just like, yes, we, we, we got it, you know, this is, this is gonna be great. Because they just play off each other really well.

Jason Buff 1:10:32
And you can just sit back and go look at what a good director I

David F. Sandberg 1:10:36
It was a little bit like that, because we have the we're shooting this we're shooting this argument at a dinner table. And we were shooting a sort of handheld, sort of free flowing. And you know, sitting by the monitor, looking at that sort of handheld argument with great acting was like she just feels like the last one, three or four or something like, awesome.

Jason Buff 1:11:02
They were like who? That some Swedish guy? Yeah. Well, cool. Yeah, that's, I mean, I'm just kind of amazed. I'm kind of living vicariously through this through everything. You're saying,

David F. Sandberg 1:11:17
You know, what I want to I plan on doing a bunch of YouTube videos just talking about all this because it's stuff that I would want to know, like, how does this happen? And how, what's the process like? And I really want to talk about that. But most of that will have to be after the movie comes out, just because I want to go so in depth with the whole thing. You know what? Yeah, story points and everything?

Jason Buff 1:11:40
No, that would be amazing. You know, it's one of the difficult things I'm doing. You know, this is probably the first time I've talked to a filmmaker about a film that hasn't come out. Usually what we would do is just kind of jump in, start dissecting everything. You know, but I'm really looking forward to hearing hopefully, yeah, that'd be great. If you could just kind of explain the experience and put things together. Yeah, um, I just want to make sure that I've got a bunch of questions here. How are you doing for time? You okay?

David F. Sandberg 1:12:06
I have the whole day.

Jason Buff 1:12:08
Okay. Yeah, this will be our first 24 hour. Yeah, we'll just sit here. People will tune out. Now, let me see here. I've got a bunch of different things. I wanted to continue talking a little bit. I don't know how, you know, I talked to, I've talked to a number of filmmakers who have worked with, you know, kind of people that have big names in horror. Right now, I talked to Daniel Stam about making The Last Exorcism with Eli Roth and James Wan and Eli Roth are kind of in similar stratosphere is right now in terms of the horror world? Was he kind of, you know, hands on with stuff when he come on set. And one of the things that I was thinking about was like, you know, wouldn't it be cool if you're working on a horror film? And you could say, I wonder how James Wan would do this thing. And then you just say, Well, let me give him a call and like, let him see this or whatever. Were there any like moments like that? Where you're like, let me let me kind of see what's in his head, how would we put this together to be better or, or was there anything like that?

David F. Sandberg 1:13:10
A little bit of I mean, he, he's a really busy guy. He wasn't around all the time. But he did come by the set a few times. And he did have a lot of input, like, it gives me sort of his input, like, you know, maybe you can shoot this scene all in sort of one tape, because that is usually very effective when when you don't cut a lot when you have these sort of scary sequences. So we try that and nothing he didn't come in and sort of come with come up with some advice. And he in pre production, he was around for a little bit as well and had some ideas. Like, if you've seen the trailer, you've seen the there's a neon sign gag, you know, that neon sign goes on and off, and she sort of blinks in and out. That was actually his idea, because my original idea was that it would be cars going by outside and the sort of headlights would sort of sweep across the room. And that's how she would sort of appear and disappear. But the neon sign was a really cool thing because you get more of that on off thing instead of this, this sweeping light. did make it hard to shoot though, because, you know, a neon sign would be on a set time interval. So at first we tried shooting it like okay, it's four minutes, four seconds on four seconds off. And Teresa would have to sort of act to that number. It's like okay, so the first time it goes off, you do this and second time you do this and it just didn't work. So what we had to do was I would just call out on or off so I would watch her performance and it's like okay, now it'd be good if it came on now would be good if it came off. But But So I was sort of afraid that people would go, what the hell's wrong with that neon sign? Because that sometimes it's all for 10 seconds. Sometimes it's all for one second, but no one's that seen the movie so far is complaint. So, yeah, it worked out.

Jason Buff 1:15:16
Did you ever talk to him about any of his films like The Conjuring? Or insidious? Or any of those? Or did you have any? Like, I would just be like, I would have like a million questions. It'd be like, Okay, I don't want to work with this guy anymore. Just leave me alone. Did you like ever kind of talk about his stuff? Because I mean, obviously, you know, when I watched lights out, the first kind of idea I had was, this is kind of in the same genre, kind of in the same mindset is insidious. And I don't know if insidious, I don't know, which came before or whatever. But did that did his films influenced you?

Or saw obviously,

David F. Sandberg 1:15:55
I'm sure they did. But what we mostly talked about, I think was saw just because that was his, that was the closest to my experience, because that was his first movie, his first time sort of coming to LA and doing all of that. So he would talk about, you know, the difficulties of getting the app made and just Yeah, trying trying to give as much advice as he could on just how to get through your your first movie, but I mean, his was a little bit different as well, because he, like he couldn't get into the country right away. So like, he had to do like all the pre production from he was stuck up in Canada waiting for his visa. So he, you know, he had like, a couple of days of prep on site before they had to start shooting. So yeah, I'm really glad that didn't happen to me. And yeah, no, we didn't really talk about stuff like that, he would sort of just give more of a general advice, like, you know, try to shoot more overlapping stuff. Because I, I'm so used to shooting and editing myself. So I'll only shoot like, okay, now I know that I'm going to cut to this and then I'm going to cut back. So I don't need all that. But so he was sort of adamant that no, but try to actually shoot everything through because she don't know what happens in edited and stuff like that.

Jason Buff 1:17:26
When you were on set, who was the guy that kind of I mean, did you have a pretty good relationship with your assistant director? Was there was it? Did you feel pretty comfortable after a while? Yeah.

David F. Sandberg 1:17:38
Yeah, no, I've got along great with everyone. And he's my assistant director is coming back on Annabelle to like, I have no idea. That's the first time I've ever worked with an assistant director. So it's good or not, but I liked him. He's coming back. No, it's just the first time working with every one really, like I've never had an someone else edit what I've shot before. So that was weird, or someone else should shoot when I'm making. So a lot of times it was almost like, oh, just let me do it. You know? Yeah.

Jason Buff 1:18:15
Did you kind of sit in video village and just kind of watch from there? Or did you actually get up and derive a camera?

David F. Sandberg 1:18:22
Yeah, I'm always sort of near the camera. I only look at a monitor. I mean, I usually just look at the focus pullers monitor because it was closer. I didn't want to go all the way to video village. But yeah, I mean, the good thing about the editing was that I've never edited with Avid on the AVID. So so even if I wanted to take over I didn't know that software at all. So I just had to sort of talk to the editor instead.

Jason Buff 1:18:57
What was that process? Like? I mean, how did you? I was it when did they start editing before you finished directing? What was what was kind of the timeline on that?

David F. Sandberg 1:19:08
No, they were editing while we were shooting, you know, like they got material continuously. So as soon as we wrapped production, I, you know, went to the post production office, and I could see the first cut of the movie. And I got super depressed. This is the worst thing ever. And everyone was telling me that that's how everyone feels. But good now starts the real work, you know, to make it into a good movie because everyone's saying like, well, you know, when Ben Affleck saw the first cut of Argo, he was like my career's over and then he won Oscars and stuff. And it really is like that because you have while you're shooting and you have this vision in your head.

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David F. Sandberg 1:20:03
And then you see what someone else has put together? And it's like, oh, no, I wouldn't have put that there. And that, you know, it's all. It's not at all what you'd expect, you get really depressed. But you just you keep working at it, you take things out, you move things around, and you tweak it. And then eventually, it's like, hey, this isn't bad. But yeah, and I mean, I got really depressed during the shooting as well. Because here's, the thing is that whenever we make our shorts, Latina, halfway through the short, I'll just be now this is shit. I don't want to do this. And she'll have to convince me that, no, we're actually going to finish this. And then we do and then it actually you're like, hey, this is bad. You know, we've actually made something cool. And that happened on lights out as well. But because it was a feature in my first Hollywood film and everything, it was so much worse, like, I got so depressed for a while there in the middle was like, this isn't fun at all. Like, I don't want to make movies. And yeah, and the producers took me out to dinner to sort of cheer me up and talk about it. And that's the whole Ben Affleck Argo thing came up there as well as like, he was unlike it when it's finished. Yeah, and I got back to it and powered through and then got fun again, and it turned into a good movie, but it was just so overwhelming, you know, working with all these people and being like, question on the camera stuff that I was talking about before and just, it was so overwhelming and just so much work, you know, you work 15 hour day, so you you really become depressed. But then once it's over, you're like, Yeah, let's do that again. It's weird.

Jason Buff 1:21:54
Do you remember a moment when you really started feeling that depression? I mean, was it just things weren't coming together the way you wanted them to?

David F. Sandberg 1:22:03
Yeah, we're just I don't know exactly what it was. It was just dealing with so much. At once, and then those really long hour days. I think I was the most depressed after like, a 15 hour day, came home at night. It's like this. I can't I can't do it, you know,

Jason Buff 1:22:25
Just from exhaustion.

David F. Sandberg 1:22:27
Yeah, I think that was a big part of it. Because I can't really point to one thing was like, Oh, that just fucked everything up. And yeah, it's just hard to get through. But yeah, I did. It's,

Jason Buff 1:22:39
I mean, I think that's really super important for other filmmakers also to hear, you know, because not many people will, you know, they don't talk about that aspect of it that, you know, and you can look back through time, I mean, look at, you know, Star Wars or all these, you know, amazing films, I was listening to some interview, I think with Robert Rodriguez about talking with Quentin Tarantino, and how depressed he was that pulp fiction was just this piece of shit. And he was like, so depressed about it. And he's like, it's doesn't make any sense. And it's the done whatever, you know, and it's like, it seems like a pretty common thread with, you know, making a film that you you will go through that, you know, yeah, even the shorts, like you said, like, the short too. Yeah,

David F. Sandberg 1:23:22
I mean, the most important thing is to not give up even though I mean, when you're in that moment, you are 100% sure that this is never going to be good that this is going to be shit. So it's really hard to continue, especially if you're making a low budget, no budget thing at home, because then it's easy. It's just not was, you know, go watch Game of Thrones, or, you know, do something else instead. But you just really have to power through and get it done because you you can't know how you will feel about it when it's done while you're in the making of you just can't even though you're 100% convinced that you can. Alright.

Jason Buff 1:24:03
Now, I'm just curious how old were you when you made lights up? The short?

David F. Sandberg 1:24:09
So I was How old are you? I'm 35. So 33 and 3233. Okay, I guess it was at the end of the deadline for that competition that we entered it in was December 30 2013. And then it went viral in the spring of 2014. Right.

Jason Buff 1:24:35
Well, can you uh, was there any day in particular that sticks out? That was like the hardest day you ever had on the set?

David F. Sandberg 1:24:45
I mean, I guess it must have been about 15 hour day when we were just trying to pick as the we actually shot the finale of the film, or a big sort of scene pretty early. Leon, that's what took so much time, it was so hard. And yeah, I don't know, if it was the same day, maybe it was the same day. But when when we're having a big argument with the camera team as well, because we were shooting one of those scenes with the neon light when she disappears, you know, so you have to shoot, you have to lock the camera off, shoot it with the performer, and then shoot it without the performer. So you can do that the effects thing of her going in and out. And they were. So we've moved the camera, and then we were going to shoot one more time of her appearing and disappearing. And they were telling me that no, but we already shot the clean clean plate. And I was like, but we've moved the camera, we're gonna have to do another clean plate. And they were kept telling me that. But we already have we shot it before. And I was like, eventually I just snapped and I was like, just put the camera here. Turn it on. And now you come in here and now you okay, not roll the camera, cut it and like I just had to take over and be Yeah, I was kind of mad.

Jason Buff 1:26:15
Do you have what looking back now on the process and kind of being a little more weathered? I mean, do you feel like you changed a lot from the first day to the last day in terms of just the way you were doing things?

David F. Sandberg 1:26:29
Yeah, and I just just realizing how much you can ask for or demand even. Because it was this whole thing that I've talked about. I've talked about reasonably where like, I wanted this scene to be shot with candle light. Like the little boy Gabriel, he has a candle walking through the house. And everyone was telling me like, No, you can't do that you got to light and you got to light it properly. Okay, and but then James came to the set that they were shooting that and he was like, Hey, you should like that. But just a candle. And everyone was like, oh, okay, great. Great. We'll do that. So it's like,

Jason Buff 1:27:10
Mr. Wong, sure. Whatever you say? Yeah. So

David F. Sandberg 1:27:13
I've just realized that you can demand more. And something I discovered as well was, sometimes when I was just tired and things weren't going as well as I wanted to, I'd be like, Alright, that's good enough. Let's move on. But then everyone would be like, good enough. No, like, that's like the worst thing you can tell the film crew that it's just good enough? Because they want it to be really good.

Jason Buff 1:27:37
Did you say that on the air? It's good enough?

David F. Sandberg 1:27:40
It did. And I got that reaction. It's like, what do you mean, good enough? Like,

Jason Buff 1:27:45
I'm Swedish, but I mean, something else? Does we say it a different way? That it sound bad? I don't know.

David F. Sandberg 1:27:50
Yeah. So it's just realizing how much you can actually demand or sort of get people to do, because the thing is, well, is that no one on set is going to care as much about the film as you do, just because for most of these people, for most of the crew, it's just another job, you know, like, there's another movie, and they'll just soon move on to another thing. So of course, if there's an easy way to do it, then that means they'll go home to their families earlier. And you know, you can't blame him for that. But sometimes, you have to do things the hard way that the way that will take a lot of time just to get it right. And, yeah, that's sort of learned to demand that I guess.

Jason Buff 1:28:34
I mean, as far as I've seen, with a lot of, you know, these films, the director is usually the one person who has the least experience of being on a set. Yeah, you know, because all these other guys have been working for years, as you know, crew members, and it's doing stuff.

David F. Sandberg 1:28:49
That's a weird thing. Like, there's two jobs on a film set you can get with no experience in PA and the director. We were just super weird to be on that film set and feel. I mean, it's reassuring as well to feel that you were the least experienced, because I believe everyone else has made movies before. Yeah, it's really good that a director can get that shot, while others have to do go the long way, you know, to get good at cinematographer, or you know, it's a strange business.

Jason Buff 1:29:27
Well, you kind of see that going right and going wrong with different people, you know, because there's a lot of directors who are around now that's I mean, I look at like Gareth Edwards for example is probably one of the closest examples to kind of your story you know, which was he made he went out and was making stuff on his own and then you know, he made monsters with a little you know, the ATX X something the Sony with a lettuce 50 millimeter on his you know, and then just took it into, I mean, I see a lot of similarities with with what you guys Done.

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Jason Buff 1:30:11
And he, he was the one that kind of inspired me to kind of get back into filmmaking after, you know, I've been doing graphic design for years. And I was like, wow, look at what this guy did, and just kind of shot handheld and put all the effects in with motion tracking and everything. And then I saw what you did. And when I first discovered your videos, I didn't know that you were making a feature. I think the first time I saw lights out you had already you were already in LA, you were already making it, you know, so I didn't even know that part of the story after it.

David F. Sandberg 1:30:40
Yeah, no, I mean, it's quite interesting that there's so Hollywood seems to be so prepared to take chances on new directors, which is probably a bad idea. Sometimes, I wouldn't have given me a movie because that's the thing back in Sweden, where we couldn't get money, you know, I went to one of the film centers in Sweden, and want to get like, a couple of grand to make a short. And they thought that they said that I wasn't experienced enough to apply for the sort of professional money. And they said, yeah, maybe you can apply for the rookie money. But the rookie money were was for people under 30. So suddenly, I was like, Okay, I'm too old. For the rookie money. I'm too inexperienced for professional money. So what do I do now? While Hollywood? You know, they see a two and a half minute short, I directed and they're like, Hey, here's $5 million. direct a movie. And I was talking to a DP who shot a single man, among other films. He's from Spain. And he was saying the same thing like he was 27. And no one in Spain wanted to take a chance on him as a DP. But in Hollywood, they were like, Yeah, you can DP a single man. So for some reason, they're stupid enough to take chances on people.

Jason Buff 1:32:04
Do you find that like, I mean, what did you notice? When you are in that world of producers and executives and stuff? Are they kind of dialed into that whole world of YouTube people? And Vimeo? I mean, is that kind of Yeah, that they really started focusing on finding their next people from them? And obviously with you?

David F. Sandberg 1:32:24
Yeah. No, that's something I've discovered here. Like, you hear a lot of talk about what's currently the, you know, the viral video or Yeah, people get discovered from that a lot. It seems I mean, I don't seems to still be pretty rare that one goes to a feature, but you can still, you know, get in a room and get meetings and people and maybe representation by doing shorts, because they seem to keep track of what's out there. And what's popular

Jason Buff 1:32:54
With Nate would talk to you about your shorts when I mean, and I don't know if you and James talked about this, but were were they commenting on the amount of views that had and the the amount of like the viral sensation, or did they specifically say Oh, well, this guy knows what he's doing. Because look at this short and look at these things that he you know, these are kind of advanced things that you were doing versus somebody who just started doing, you know,

David F. Sandberg 1:33:19
Yeah, I don't think they cared that much about the views just sort of the effectiveness of the film. Really. Um, then I know James was at first a little hesitant because he was like, yeah, it's a cool short, but can this guy tell like a 90 minute story, which is, you know, the treatment I wrote was what? Persuade him it's like, that's what made him go okay. This guy. No longer storytel Darling as well. Yeah.

Jason Buff 1:33:52
Did you when you were after the treatment it what was is the the actual screenplay pretty, pretty much what you had in that treatment, or was it changed?

David F. Sandberg 1:34:03
It's out of here. Eric Kaiser who wrote the screenplay, kept very close to that treatment. In fact, there's even like, ended up treatment were bits of dialogue and stuff that actually made it through to the film as well. Like, there was one scene in there where we needed like a little scene between Teresa and her boyfriend. And sort of like a placeholder, I wrote this scene where they have a, like, an argument about a sock, or whatever, that actually made it through the film. Like I was convinced that that would be the first thing that he would throw out. But he kept it in. So yeah, good. Pretty close.

Jason Buff 1:34:43
Was there ever a moment when you you were considering or you thought about actually writing the screenplay for it? Or did they want to just go with somebody that was a little more seasoned?

David F. Sandberg 1:34:53
Like I felt that I didn't want to push my luck, you know? I'm just like a first time Director, so they probably don't want a first time writer as well. And it's the same thing with lock day, you know, like, she's been the star of every short. But like, we didn't want to push her to be the lead in the film, because I mean, we just didn't want to push her luck because it felt like oh, well, we have this chance now. Like, if we push too hard, they might go, oh, well done. We're not doing the film. So it's like, yeah, a lot of that, like, Yeah, sure. I'll just work with the writer. But it turned out great, because I loved Eric's work as well. And he, you know, while I was doing the water ball tour, and agents, were sending me scripts. The one script that I wanted, really wanted to make was one that he had written called Birdbox. And

Jason Buff 1:35:46
Was that one you said?

David F. Sandberg 1:35:48
Yeah. Well, that was another writer. But yeah, that Birdbox was on blacklist as well. Okay. Okay. Sorry. That's so no lot and I even made a little like a trailer for Birdbox to sort of, to pitch that to production company, but I'm not really sure what to do with that now. I think Andy machete or miscarry or the who made Mama's is right, but he's doing it now. So I don't know what's happening with that. But that was a really good script that I was very happy that he wanted to write lights out.

Jason Buff 1:36:28
Yeah, well, that's another example. That guy that made Mama is another guy that like had a short Yeah. And was kind of did the same trajectory that you did. Yeah. And

David F. Sandberg 1:36:38
God gambled. Guillermo del Toro as a producer.

Jason Buff 1:36:42
Not too shabby. How is Lata dealt with La she feel uncomfortable there is that what has she done?

David F. Sandberg 1:36:51
Yeah, no. She's loving it as well. I mean,

Jason Buff 1:36:56
She ever get recognized?

David F. Sandberg 1:36:58
She does. I mean, even I've started to get recognized. We were at the grove here in LA the other day, and these three guys came up, say, Hey, are you the director of lights out? And it's like, hey. Now, so that's weird. But yeah, see you like that?

Jason Buff 1:37:14
I mean, do you like being recognized?

David F. Sandberg 1:37:16
So far? Yeah. I mean, as a director, I don't think you ever get to that point where it's annoying. Well, I mean, I wouldn't want to be, you know, Brad Pitt, or someone who can't probably can't go out side. A lot. But yeah, so far. It's it's great.

Jason Buff 1:37:36
Yeah, I can imagine like you just, you know, go into that well, in LA. It's totally different, though. Because you'll go to the grocery store, and you'll see like five or six stars shopping there. And it's like nothing.

David F. Sandberg 1:37:45
Yeah, that's pretty cool. Like, yeah, just down the street here. I walked by Christopher Nolan the other day and said,

Jason Buff 1:37:51
Oh, like I'm a fellow director.

David F. Sandberg 1:37:55
Yeah. We were in the same union.

Jason Buff 1:38:01
Yeah, I used to go to a grocery store that was like down the road from like, near kind of near Melrose, I used to live. And there was a grocery store there that I would always go and I would pay more because I would always see a star there. But I would just kind of sit there and like, watch them and be like, Wow, that's

David F. Sandberg 1:38:14
Yeah, it's like, Daniel, same thing here. We've seen a lot of celebrities down in the grocery store. You just play cool. You just

Jason Buff 1:38:26
Well, you know, now you can do that a new movie set, you can be like, hey, that's just gonna talk to me. Oh, he's coming over here. Like, you're the director. Why are you hiding? Yeah. Hi, how you doing?

David F. Sandberg 1:38:39
I have a friend was like, Hey, can you give me that guy's autograph or whatever? It's like, No, I have to play cool. I know what I'm doing. When I'm meeting all these people.

Jason Buff 1:38:50
Well, is there like, do you kind of have a dual life now? I mean, it's like you go, you go back to Sweden. And it's kind of like, oh, yeah, it's just David. You know, how's it going and everything. Then he come back. And it's kind of like you get to be on a set and have all these, like, famous people and everything.

David F. Sandberg 1:39:06
I mean, so far, I only been back for two weeks at Christmas. So like, I don't know, I'm just here all the time now. This is my life now. But it's awesome. I want to see how far I can take this Hollywood thing because I can always go back to making nobody short. If this doesn't work out.

Jason Buff 1:39:26
Well, you can always talk to the people that didn't give you your fund. Yeah, be like Hey, guys, remember?

David F. Sandberg 1:39:32
Yeah, I've moved to Hollywood movies. Now. I got some money. Like, I don't know. I haven't done any Swedish movies.

Jason Buff 1:39:40
Yeah, that's the real you know the sign. Are there any Swedish horror movies that people like did I mean I know you probably I've seen seen your your other conversations and I know you you like mostly kind of American based horror films and stuff. Are there any horror films from Sweden that people should check out?

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David F. Sandberg 1:40:10
Yeah, I mean, the one of the more famous ones is select the right one, and

Jason Buff 1:40:15
Oh, yeah, that's brilliant.

David F. Sandberg 1:40:17
No, do they do some of that stuff? Usually it's based on books. I guess that makes them more comfortable in doing genre, stuff like that. And you know, girl with a dragon tattoo just isn't really hard. And that's more of a genre film. What else? Is there? Not a lot of horror made in Sweden. I don't think it's more serious sort of movies about alcoholism, and immigrants and divorce.

Jason Buff 1:40:47
But what would you what are your like, favorite? Like, what if you had to go back and like pick, say, like five films that are the ones that influenced you the most? What would those be?

David F. Sandberg 1:40:56
Well, just from my childhood, it's sort of Action, Horror, sci fi, you know, aliens Terminator. The thing. Diehard, you know, the stuff I grew up on, which I still love, and yeah, I just last week, I think it was they were showing aliens on the big screen here at Arclight. And that's always been my dream to see that in a theater. So I had to go on. It's like, yeah, man, this movie still holds up. I love that movie.

Jason Buff 1:41:24
Yeah, so good. Yeah. But yeah, alien or Aliens.

David F. Sandberg 1:41:29
Aliens. I mean, one of the best.

Jason Buff 1:41:32
Well, it's amazing. Yeah. Aliens was the first movie that I ever saw. I'm a little older than you. But I mean, I saw that I was I got into the theater with my family to watch it. And I realized about a couple minutes in that I was way too young to be on that movie. Because that was scary. I mean, I didn't sleep for a week. And to this day, it's still the most horrifying movie just in terms of, you know, scaring the hell out of me. But I mean, I think it came out at what, like 96 or something. I mean, 8686 Yeah. Yeah. And I would have been like 12 or something like that, but I remember going to see that and Oh, my God, it was so scary. And I mean, that's probably one of my favorite screenplays, too, you know? Yeah. I mean, James Cameron, just like, has this way of creating anyway, I don't want to get off.

David F. Sandberg 1:42:20
Yeah, no, but I'm not. I'm like Cameron fanboy as well.

Jason Buff 1:42:23
Okay. So let me just ask you this. And I'll kind of wrap it up with Annabelle, too, are you? Do you go back and look at the original movie? Are you what, what do you do in a creative sense? And I know you're you're not writing the screenplay for it, I assume. Yeah. But I assume you have a lot to do with what's going to be in the screenplay.

David F. Sandberg 1:42:45
Yeah, we're working together with the writer and all that. You know, without giving too much away, the story of animal two isn't a continuation of animal one rally, which was enticing to me. But it's its own thing more, you know. But of course, I had to go back and rewatch and about one and sort of get into that and see what they did in conjuring one and two as well, because a bit all this in was special in country one, which is where she first appeared.

Jason Buff 1:43:27
But James wrapped on the conjuring, too. That's that's like a done deal now, right?

David F. Sandberg 1:43:33
Oh, yeah. They even had like a surprise screening in Austin the other day. And, yeah, so that opens on first, sort of, they have their premiere at the LA Film Festival on the June 7. And then on June 8, we show lights out. So that after June 8, people are going to know there's gonna be reviews and stuff, I guess.

Jason Buff 1:43:57
So what what is your biggest? Like? How do you feel? What's your biggest fear right now? Are you kind of like just waiting for that?

David F. Sandberg 1:44:03
I am. Weird thing is that everyone is so confident that it's going to be hit that I think they're going to jinx it, you know? Because it's been tested really well. And like, everyone's like, No, this is gonna be hit. It's like, you don't know, anything can happen. You know. So, you know, I hope people like it.

Jason Buff 1:44:26
Well, I think one of the really interesting things about it, and, you know, not a lot of other films can say this, but it's already had, you know, because of the short it's already got people who are kind of aware. Yeah, I mean, that's a huge I mean, in terms of marketing of a film, that's got to be like a huge, you know, huge deal for them. I don't know how much they think about that when they're doing it, you know, when they're like planning stuff out, but it's like, okay, well, this has had a bazillion downloads. So everybody already knows the short, you know,

David F. Sandberg 1:44:54
Yeah, I mean, we've had to push that a little bit because, like, you know, I don't had to cut the trailer. That's all marketing. But so they they, they had this trailer that they wanted to shell that was similar to this trailer, but it didn't start with lockdown the light switch. And we told the marketing department like you have to put that in the trailer and put it at the top. Because there's going to be people out there that may have seen the short, but they don't might not remember the name or whatever. But if you have that scene with her doing the same thing as in the short, they're gonna go, Oh, I've seen this before. Like, I remember that. So we really had to sort of push them to put that in the trailer. But the other ones I know, I think those Warner's digital marketing department are more on top of it, you know, with views and all that because they wanted. They wanted to get all the stats from my YouTube and Vimeo pages. And I'm not sure what they're doing with that, and probably something cool. So, yeah, it's not been a It's not been at the forefront. It's been more, the marketing seems to be more pushing that it's produced by James Wan, because people know, conjuring and all that.

Jason Buff 1:46:15
No, I just lost my train of thought I had a question for you. All right, Scott. Sorry. That's something really important. Give me marketing short million. What do you how much? Are they kind of like, I mean, are you getting we talk a lot about marketing and distribution here. And I don't know how much you've kind of been, you know, a part of that. I mean, is there any insights you've had in terms of the way they're promoting it and the way that you know, things that you've seen on your side?

David F. Sandberg 1:46:50
I mean, the frustrating thing, how little you are part of that, because the weird thing is, like this movie cost, like $5 million. But to market a movie, you need way more than that. So like the marketing budget is many times the actual movie budget for a project like this. And they, I mean, you just have to hope that they know what they're doing. Because you're, you know, they cut the trailers, they make the posters, and they do all that thing. All those things. I mean, they look, they'll show it to you, and you can sort of, say what you want, but ultimately, it's they do their thing. You know, they know, the marketing. Like that's one thing I've been sort of trying to say that this movie is more fun than like, the trailer is very traditional horror movie, but it actually is a bit more fun, more fun movie, which I told marketing, like, isn't there a way to get that in there for the next trailer? Man? It's more like just No, like, this is how you market a horror movie. It's like, Alright, I guess.

Jason Buff 1:47:58
What is the feeling? They've like, just done it so many times. They're like, yeah, we know we're doing just, you know, quiet down. We'll put it all together. And this is we've done this a million times. We've made a bazillion dollars. And,

David F. Sandberg 1:48:09
I mean, yeah, they have made a gazillion dollars. Yeah, I guess they know what they're doing. You know, but and that's the same thing. Like if I, if I were to cut a trailer, you probably wouldn't see a lot because I was like, No, we can't give that away. Can't give that away. So it's like the, I guess you got to have someone who's more sort of, now we know how this works. Like? Yeah.

Jason Buff 1:48:33
Yeah. Well, I mean, my favorite is always like, if you look back at the alien, the original Alien ads just had an egg hatching? You know? And yeah, you know, I, that's, I'm a big fan of that, you know, have and that's one of the big things I like about your shorts as well is that it just has, you know, I'm working on a short right now. And I keep making it bigger and bigger and bigger. And I keep adding people in No, no, no, no, I gotta get, I gotta get it down to just the basic idea. You know, and I think that's one of the things that your short also really inspires people to think about. It's like, look, you know, we were just sitting around the apartment one day, and we were like, Okay, let's come up with some ideas that are scary. And let's just shoot it, you know? Yeah. I don't know if it was like that. But

David F. Sandberg 1:49:20
Ya know, I think a lot of people, they have like feature ideas that they only have resources for short. So they try to compress feature ideas into a very short amount of time. And I think I mean, at least the way we looked at it may come it's just a scene or two, you know, it's not really trying to tell such a big story. We're just going in for a couple of scenes and making the best we can out of that.

Alex Ferrari 1:49:50
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Jason Buff 1:50:00
Do you consciously think I mean, when you were making lights out the short? was? Was it just like, Okay, we want we know people are sitting, how much? Are you thinking about your audience? Are you like, Okay, wait, let's make this I know people don't have any sort of attention span. There's a bunch of little horror shorts out there. Are you thinking about that? I mean, are you just like, Okay, let's let's come up with something that people can click on real quick and just watch something fast.

David F. Sandberg 1:50:26
Yeah, it's just get straight to the point, just have her flip that light switch as early as you can. She's just walking from the bathroom and right there to just get straight into it. Because once they see that, they get sore, like, Oh, that's cool. And then they're hooked. You know, they want to see where it takes off. From there. There's just a lot you can cut out of both shorts and features. And still, you know, that you don't need I mean, you still have to have a good pace and a good rhythm to it. But I think movies today are too long. So lights out. It's actually like, things like 80 minutes or something. And one of the producers was kind of freaking out about that he was like, has to be longer. Like, why? People have seen it. No one has said that it's too short, or that the pacing is weird, or something that just feels right. No, I wish more people more films for like, 90 minutes. Instead of the two and a half hours. Things we get nowadays, nowadays.

Jason Buff 1:51:29
It makes you wonder how many movies are like, you know, you see all these movies that come out all these blockbusters and everything. And it's like, it was just like, maybe 10 minutes a little too long. And you wonder if that was like some executive and they're gone. Yeah, we need to we need to add a little bit more. And it was just like, why? You know, what? Movie could have ended?

David F. Sandberg 1:51:48
Yeah. Yeah, that's really because I mean, if they have shorter movies, they can have more showings in a day and they'll make more money. But maybe it's something. Everything has to be epic these days, I guess.

Jason Buff 1:52:00
Now, what are you sick of seeing in horror movies? What turns you off to, you know, if you're watching something? And you're just like, okay, within like, say the first 15 minutes? What is the harm of yes to do in the first 15 10 15 minutes to kind of like pull you in?

David F. Sandberg 1:52:19
Well, I mean, as long as they don't have really stupid characters that you just like, you don't want to harm or will you want the people to die? You know, I mean, that can be fun. But stuff like that, and just Yeah. And the fake kind of jumpscares was just loud sounds with stuff that has nothing to do with the horrors of the film. Yeah, yeah.

Jason Buff 1:52:46
You watch, like, you click around like Netflix and stuff like that, and try to find new stuff. I just seems like there's I mean, one of the things that we talked about, you know, and I've talked to a lot of indie filmmakers who are, you know, making all different levels of, you know, they make stuff that, you know, very low budget from a couple $1,000 To 50,000 to 100, or, you know, in that range. And, you know, I just kind of tried to figure out like, what, what's the whole process, you know, where are they? Where are they selling it? What's what's, what's that world? Like, you know, and

David F. Sandberg 1:53:22
Yeah, I mean, for the last year or so, I mean, since we came to LA, we haven't had the television. So to watch a lot of stuff just on our laptops. But the good thing about living in LA is that you can see a lot of limited release smaller movies. So like I saw my favorites recently, were greenroom, which I loved. And the invitation, which was really good as well.

Jason Buff 1:53:51
Now, but I didn't see the greenroom.

David F. Sandberg 1:53:54
I love that one. Now with that, and that's actually I go since we don't have a TV we go more to the theaters these days. Because we live right by Northlight. So it's it's great. But a lot of movies is just feels like the same, you know, like, it's still the same sort of superhero stories and stuff like that. So it's almost a point you get like her I'm kind of tired of movies, but then you see a movie like greener I was like, No, I love movies, you know? Yeah. But yeah, and Netflix is I try to find stuff there. But usually you just Netflix, it's just scrolling through looking at movies and then never watching anything.

Jason Buff 1:54:40
Yeah, I mean, it's just interesting though, the way things are changing now, you know, and I try as much as possible to see stuff in the theater. But, you know, especially down here, we just don't get a lot. But it's just kind of watching the evolution. You know, when I was younger, you would go see a movie because the quality was my Ah, better. That was that was the only opportunity you had, you know, and then it would go to, you know, home video was even kind of like a new thing, you know, and things have changed so quickly. So everybody's watching, you know, the majority of people are going to see your film on a TV, which kind of sucks, you know, because it's made for being in a theater. Yeah. So, you know, there's this giant kind of glut of now that the technology is so cheap, there's just horror movies like crazy coming out. You know, I mean, if you go on, like Amazon Prime, and Netflix and all these different places, it's like in the qualities, a lot of them's just not very good. So I don't really have any points just bitching about it?

David F. Sandberg 1:55:41
No, but I mean, the sad truth is that 90% of horror movies are pretty terrible. And which is kind of sad. Because nowadays, like now that I'm, I mean, this last year, and now I've been working so much, that it's almost like, I don't really want to take chances. You know, I want to see something that I know is good. So, yeah, I mean, especially now that I'm making movies, I'm actually trying to watch a lot of classics, because I want to see something that I know is good. And something that's sort of valuable. So I've been watching old stuff like Fred's lines and your yumbo. And just trying to Yeah, I mean, what cool stuff?

Jason Buff 1:56:26
Yeah, of course, I'll I don't know if you're like me, but I find it's so inspiring to kind of see those stories and be like, oh, you know, do you get inspired? Like, when you watch other people's movies? Do you start having your own ideas about things?

David F. Sandberg 1:56:39
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Jason Buff 1:56:41
I mean, is that let me just ask you this kind of blank question in terms of creativity, like what do you have any Have you learned to kind of like control your creativity and learn how to use it and put it together and stuff and you do do things that you know, are going to kind of jolt that creativity? Yeah.

David F. Sandberg 1:57:04
I don't have a specific process. It's just sort of comes up, I guess I love sort of idea by based things, especially sort of time travel movies, and sort of that has a neat ID at the core of it. But you're not really sure where the ideas come from.

Jason Buff 1:57:25
You write things down. I mean, you'd like if you're, you know, you said you wake up in the middle of night sometimes is that what do you get ideas sometimes that way? Or?

David F. Sandberg 1:57:33
Yes? No, just a little while ago, I had this. Like, I dream, this whole scene. And I woke up and I wrote it down on my phone. And then the, the morning after, I sent that to the screenwriter, for Annabelle to was like, Hey, can we put this in the movie? And it was like, if I wrote like, I had this dream of this

Jason Buff 1:57:56
Banana face, put it in the movie? Yes. It's like, What the hell are you talking about man?

David F. Sandberg 1:58:01
Yeah. And I wrote out this whole scene and sent it to him. And he was like, why don't I have dreams? Like, get a whole scene? But in the movie? No. So that's actually in the script isn't?

Jason Buff 1:58:14
Right. That's awesome. Well, you know, one of the things that, you know, there was a book out not too long ago that talked about how you're the state of mind that you're in just as you wake up is so far into your right brain, that that is you will never find a more purely creative moment that when you're in that kind of dream state, because you're in the same state of mind when you dream. So your mind is just creating stuff. So that's why a lot of people always have like a, you know, a pad and paper beside the bed. Or people write when they first wake up, you know,

David F. Sandberg 1:58:46
Kind of explains a lot because I do have that a lot of being sort of half awake, half asleep, usually sort of nightmarish stuff. I freak out and like, my wife will have to go no, no, no, you're dreaming, like, get back to sleep. So maybe that's where a lot of it is born.

Jason Buff 1:59:04
Yeah. Well, David, I really appreciate this man. Is there? Is there any thing else that we could touch on? Is there any advice that you have for all the indie filmmakers that are out there kind of like, hoping to emulate you a little bit or kind of following your path a bit?

David F. Sandberg 1:59:22
I mean, the the main advice would just be to keep making stuff and putting it up online and not giving up even though you think it's gonna be shit, because you never know. And yeah, and you never know what it is that gonna resonate with people. Like, you know, I was talking to this producer who made this big Kickstarter project like this big like series of videos that they had quite a budget for.

Alex Ferrari 1:59:50
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show

David F. Sandberg 1:59:59
And nothing really happened with it. And then with his friends, he just did like a quick YouTube thing that cost no money. And that's what got them representation in Hollywood and got into a bunch of meetings and stuff. So you just keep making stuff and you, you never know what's gonna, what's gonna be the thing that actually gets you out there.

Jason Buff 2:00:22
Now that that's one of the, you know, after doing this for like, a year and a half, you know, and I had a project that fell apart a couple years ago. And I just, you know, it's really inspiring the stuff that you did, and with your short and everything, but it's just like that, that seems to be the common thread with people who are having success in the indie film world now is just Okay, start making shorts, just get out there, start shooting, it doesn't matter, you know, shoot with your DSLR or whatever, it's like, the equipment doesn't matter anymore. And just slowly, not all of us are gonna get like, picked up for a feature film, but it's like, just slowly, one short, a little, you know, and learn. I mean, were you, you know, each short that you did, were you learning a little bit more and kind of saying, Okay, put this together. Now. Let me try it a little bit more. Or Absolutely.

David F. Sandberg 2:01:09
I mean, yeah, I'm 35 now, and I've been making movies since I was eight, you know, so, right? Or you get better and better. And you learn more and more the whole time. So yeah.

Jason Buff 2:01:21
Cool. Is there. Do you want to leave? Usually I asked people if they want to leave their, like websites and information. I don't know if there's anything that you want to leave or like your Twitter handle, maybe people can follow you.

David F. Sandberg 2:01:35
Yeah, I'm at pony smasher on on Twitter and on Instagram and on YouTube. I'm pony smasher as well.

Jason Buff 2:01:45
Should I ask what that?

David F. Sandberg 2:01:47
Well, it all started with YouTube. I mean, when YouTube was this new thing, like I signed up for that, but it wasn't a thing yet. So I was like, I don't know if I'm gonna use this. I'll just pony smasher. And then it became a thing. So it's like, okay, I guess I'm pony smasher now. So it's kind of weird now that they're, like the marketing people or like, when articles and stuff on Twitter about like, you know, you have at Teresa Palmer or whatever, and then at pony smasher and say, Oh, but Jamie.

Jason Buff 2:02:19
I mean, it could have been worse. You know, it could have been like gorilla penis or something.

David F. Sandberg 2:02:33
Yeah.

Jason Buff 2:02:33
Oh, okay.

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IFH 703: Writing and Selling Screenplays Outside of Hollywood with Allen Johnson

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:36
I'd like to welcome to the show Alan Johnson. Brother, thank you so much for being on the show, bro.

Allen Johnson 3:49
I am honored to be here. Thank you so much for the invite. Looking forward to it.

Alex Ferrari 3:52
Yeah, man. Absolutely. So you are a longtime tribe member. Without question, you bet. I talked to you on on the Ask Alex show when I was doing that for a while like this, like two years ago now?

Allen Johnson 4:06
Yeah. Yeah. years ago. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 4:08
It two, three years ago, we did that. And we were talking. And you reached out to me the other day. And you were just just as a casual statement, you just said oh, by the way. Yeah, you know, I've shot I've sold 10 scripts, and three of them got produced. And I also sold some plays, and they're being produced as well. And you know, and I'm like, wait a minute, you don't live in LA? And like, how does this work? So I was like, I need to get you on the show. I invited you on the show. Because I want to give everybody out there who's listening to this podcast, some hope that you don't have to live in LA to make this happen. You look, we all love to get the big giant projects, but there's ways of making a living with your art and with your writing outside of the Hollywood system. So before we jump into all of that, sir, how did you get started in the business?

Allen Johnson 4:55
Well, it's been a really long slow journey like most kids have. Are our vintage were of similar vintages as you'd like to say, yeah, you know, I grew up obsessing over our film heroes, you know, I, I wanted to be Obi Wan I wanted to be Indiana Jones. You know, I wanted to do all I wanted to be James Bond all these exciting action heroes, you know, that we grew up with. And I grew up mainly in South Carolina. And as we all know, it is another mecca of Hollywood. Yeah, I mean, there was nothing, there was nothing. There was no realization that, you know, people actually did this for a living. It was just a magic thing that happened in a dark theater, you know, so I never really had any formal education. The only time I ever got close to anything was like my senior year in high school, my friends and I got together and made a ridiculous spoof film, it was awful. We had to borrow a VHS camcorder from the athletic department in order to shoot this thing over a single weekend. It was awful. But that was my that was my first taste. And I was never a great student. I was always the one always daydreaming, getting that was the note always going home to my mom constantly daydreaming? Well, look at me now. daydreaming for a living, right? Yeah, but, but but I couldn't get into a really good university, I went to a junior college for a while and actually had a decent little theater program. And so I started getting into acting, a few classes, you know, of touching on to script analysis, stuff like that. And I enjoyed that. And then I finally was able to transfer it to a four year university, I transferred to the University of Utah, which is great, because we had Sundance right there in our backyard. So I had an opportunity to see that. And you know, and again, though, this was in the early 2000s, you know, this is like 2000 2001 2002. So is it's a very different world than it is now. We were just starting to see the the the the celebrity invasion of of a Sundance and how that thing changed over time. But I continued to make a few little short films here and there, nothing was, it was it was really great. I was not a talented filmmaker. The education that I got, there was mainly theoretical, a lot of film theory, I read a ton, and watched a ton of movies, which are great, great education. You know, I think that's something that's missing from a lot of young filmmakers today, they don't study the classics. And so I had great background in that great study. But all the upper level classes were all they were they were geared for people who were voted in essentially by the administration, and they only had a very few amount of cameras and equipment. And back then everything was taught on 16 millimeter, because that's how real artists did it, obviously. And of course, you know, back then, I mean, they taught editing as actual splicing flap out of the film. Yeah, I remember seeing walking by these guys with these glazed look in their eyes, staring at this flip flop flip flop thing in this box, you know, as they're taping, their, you know, pulling the tape across their thing, learning how to edit and, and of course, we had to fight over the few high eight camcorders. And we were editing on like a 1999 version of Final Cut. You know, the one that if you had a five minute video took about five hours to render, inevitably, it would crash halfway through, and then you'd have to start all over, you know, people sleeping underneath the desks in the editing room and stuff like that. And so that was, you know, my film education and I, during this time, I was never aware of any kind of, you know, here's a way to get out to LA and here's what here's a sponsorship or any kind of internship or anything like that. Nothing like that was available, or, you know, they just didn't offer it to me. One way or the other, you know, that was it. But at the same time, I was continuing to try and do acting, I found a little agent, they're in town, and I started doing commercials and things like that, at the same time. Kind of my other passion along with this. I do historical European martial arts. I specialize in historical European sword fighting. So I started sport fencing in college. And then I got into the more historical aspect, I started finding ways to get into films that way, doing some stunt fighting, doing some choreography. But after a while, I started really focusing in on my screenwriting classes had a really great professor. And that's where I really found my love, I really found being able to sit there and create and to delve deep into these characters and come up with whatever I wanted. I didn't have a budget you know, so that was that was really became a passion for me and that's really where I kept kept honing my craft. In fact, I took it took the class a couple of times without getting credit for it. You know, I had expired my allotment for getting collegiate credit for this class, but I kept wanting to take it because I loved the the atmosphere so much.

So that went on for a while and then Everything started to stagnate. life wasn't going well had some relationship changes that didn't go well. I was getting down is getting depressed. I was working at a movie theater as a manager, and then a glorious gig, you know, do whatever you can to even touch the the the

Unknown Speaker 10:17
celluloid

Allen Johnson 10:18
the cell. Yes, yes. And then we actually had to back then we actually had, you know, flatbed reels with the the film on it, you know, we had to do an upright, you know, stuff like that. So I'm sitting there. And, you know, I one day, I'm sitting there opening up the theater, and it wasn't in a great area of town, I've got a gun press up to my face, because a guy's jacking the till for literally 65 bucks. I'm like, Dude, this is gonna buy you a shoe. You know, not, not even a pair. And so I think I need a life reboot. I just need to kind of hit reset, and it was your Fight Club moment.

Alex Ferrari 10:54
It was when Tyler journey puts it puts a gun to the head at the end in the back alleys. Like, what do you really want to do? Yeah.

Allen Johnson 11:01
So, but at this point, I didn't have any options. So I went back home to South Carolina, I went back to my roots. And, you know, again, I was hoping that I'd be able to kind of re get back into things and find a new way to get back in. But it was even worse. You know, it was it was just dry. There was no market, there was no opportunity. I did find a little agent got a little extra work here and there. But if

Alex Ferrari 11:24
you got an agent in South Carolina, yeah. So they had no, they had screenwriting agents writing agents in South Carolina says

Allen Johnson 11:31
more is more Talent Agent just because I was trying to grasp for anything, so it was not a literary agent wasn't anything like that. So I got in a Kevin Bacon movie as an extra sitting in an office and you know,

Alex Ferrari 11:44
assuming Awesome,

Allen Johnson 11:46
well, now I'm great at the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon, I scored that game now. Right. So. But, you know, at that point, it was there was nothing. So I submit one of my favorite scripts of all time to a screenwriting contest, this is the script that I just absolutely loved. I was this is the best work I've ever done. And the thing with this contest is this. If you submitted to this contest, you get free coverage. And I was really excited about that. And the coverage I got back just absolutely. It destroyed the story. I mean, I keep I keep it with me, everywhere I go to to keep me accountable. And to remind me I mean, I've got the thing right here. And the comments were you know, this, this is a premise without any commercial spin. Why would a producer spend money on this? This has been done many times the script is dull from page one, there isn't a shred of originality to this. There's like four or four pages of that. I quit that day. I quit that day I was done. That's it. That was the best thing I could have ever written.

Alex Ferrari 12:59
You took your shot. You went up to the plate. And that was it. That's it.

Allen Johnson 13:04
That was it. There was nothing. There was nothing. So I started getting into jobs I had I was doing designing brochures for a restroom partition company. I was one of those horrible people that called you in the middle of the dinner, asking if you want to refinance on your home. I mean, that's how bad it had sunk, you know. So about a year after that contest, I get a call out of the blue from a friend of mine from outwest, who lives still lived in Utah. He was a dp really good dp. He had been working on an independent film for a producer and he says, Are you still writing? Kind of, you know, what are you looking at? He says, Well, this guy just finished shooting a film form. He wants to jump right into another one. But he needs a writer. Can I send him something for you?

Alex Ferrari 13:52
If that's like, that's if that's not the universe knocking on your door. I don't know what it is.

Allen Johnson 13:57
But it's one of those things where like, do I even dare to get my hopes up even a little so of course, I sent it off. And in less than a week, called me up said I love what you read. You wrote here. I want you to write this story for me. Here's the concept. We're shooting in a month. Let's go. That was my first professional sale. That's my first professional assignment. Since then, I've had 1010 professional sales. They've all been assignments, and three of them had been produced I've been able to to produce or sell for stage plays. Three of those have been produced. I've been able to write magazine articles. I've spoken on panels and workshops and conventions, and two different kinds of writing groups. And my best accomplishment 10 years ago I got married and my wife is still with me. They haven't they haven't disowned me yet. From you know, literal from going to the point where I thought there was no hope whatsoever, I thought that I didn't have anything to offer. And here and all this takes place in sunny South Carolina, you know, right. Like,

Alex Ferrari 15:13
that's, that's fascinating, man. That's fast. So did you ever consider moving to LA?

Allen Johnson 15:19
I did a little bit, I had seen a number of people who had made that jump. Especially when I was living in Salt Lake You know, they're they're excited. They had both as actors and producers and directors and writers, they made that jump and just about without fail, within six months to year, they all came back, they got chewed up and spit out. And they were angry and bitter and broke. And, and, to me, that's all I knew. So well, if you make that jump, unless you've got an in already, there's no hope. So I was too scared to make that jump. I never thought you know, I could, I could do that. It takes a lot of money to make that jump and it just wasn't there. You know, I

Alex Ferrari 16:01
mean, being an East Coast boy, myself, it took me years before I jumped out here, I got out here 11 years ago. And it took me I mean, I went out once. I think right after that whole shooting for the mob thing came out to LA and I was my I got my ass handed to me, like complete, like so handed to me wasn't even funny. And I went back to back to Florida with my tail between my legs. It took me another four years before I attempted it, you know, not four years, like seven years before I attempted it again. But at that point, it was a little bit different. I was on my feet, I was coming from a place of strength. But I came out here with nothing. Like I had, I knew two people, no job prospects, my whole plan was have a final cut system. I'm just gonna set it up in my extra bedroom that we're going to get a two bedroom place in North Hollywood, and we'll see what happens. And it just so happened that everything kind of worked out. But it's I get you, I get it. It's not an easy jump. But also if you only know one way like like, oh, if you move to LA if you don't have a job waiting for you, you're gonna get destroyed. Yes, yes. And no, it all depends on how you lay it out. I what I find fun what I find interesting about your story, and I think it's something we could dive into a little bit is that first right hook that you got with that coverage? Yeah, that decimated you. Absolutely. That completely knocked you out. And it's so many of us on our journey. You know, I always I always refer to that quote by Rocky Balboa is like, it's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. And it's so true. And you're going to get those punches and you're going to get that shrapnel you're going to get that the scarring, you're going to get all of that stuff, you know, you're going to get weathered, you know, you're going to get weather during this during this process. And I find that fascinating that How old were you when you got that? That smack?

Allen Johnson 18:07
Let's see. That was I think I was probably in my early to mid 30s. Yeah, so

Alex Ferrari 18:13
you weren't a kid anymore. You don't know you weren't a kid. But at that point, and I feel you because I was there because I lived outside of the Hollywood for so long. That that one punch, you know, knocks you out? And, you know, it's it's, it's it's interesting, if you wouldn't have gotten that phone call from that dp, what do you think would have happened? Because that phone call changed your life?

Allen Johnson 18:38
It absolutely did. You know, I like to think that if you, I didn't have that perspective, then but I kind of have a little bit of this perspective. Now. If you keep on doing what you do, and you do it in the right way. I think that you are going to be given opportunities to succeed, you just have to be sure that you're in a place to accept them, and have the, I guess, ammo, for lack of a better term to take advantage of the situation. If I wouldn't have had a script ready to go when he made that call, that opportunity would have passed me by you know, I'd like to think if I was still trying to do the right thing and be a better person and stuff like that somehow I would have been rewarded with another opportunity. But you can't bake on that you have no idea. And by my spirit still would have been crushed, I would still have been in the soul crushing job that I that I hated. Waiting for what I don't know. You know?

Alex Ferrari 19:34
I mean, I'm still waiting for that studio to call me. You know, I've taken meetings and I've done a lot of things outside of that, but I'm still waiting for Marvel to call me and see, you know, to get that, you know, like I always put out there like Marvel I'll take the meeting. We'll see what

Allen Johnson 19:49
happens. But I was I put out there that you know, my my favorite character in all fiction is Obi Wan. And so apparently the universe has passed me by with the opportunity to write the Adobe series, but that's okay. I'm happy that it's happening.

Alex Ferrari 20:05
I was gonna ask you, I was gonna ask you, I was gonna ask you that I was like, so what do you think of that whole Obi Wan Kenobi series coming up? Because I know you're such a huge fan of Obi Wan Yeah,

yeah, yeah, I know, I'm excited for it. I'm glad that it's happening. And I absolutely tickled that that yuans gonna be a part of that. And, you know, I couldn't I couldn't think of anybody better to do that. And I'm just The only negative is that I'm not involved.

But obviously Yeah, I mean, I I said the same thing. I said the same thing about every single Marvel movie ever made. And for that matter, every Star Wars movie ever made. So, alright, so you got the one you one opportunity to write a screenplay? And do you mind? If you do mind talking about money? Or is that something you want to kind of keep quiet even in the early stuff?

Allen Johnson 20:52
I can, I can tell you what I was told, I have no idea if what I was told about the budget at the beginning, was the same at the end. So at the beginning, they were talking about a $300,000 budget, and I think it ballooned up from there, I'm pretty sure I have no idea what it ended up being at the end, of course, you know, as a writer, you know, you work with them before early on in a process, you complete your draft, you turn it in, and then you sit around and the film comes out. And you're like, Oh, that's what you did with it, you know? So that's, you know, you're usually out, you know, once you turn in that final draft, you're usually out of the the process.

Alex Ferrari 21:28
So by doing that one project, that kind of just you just kept getting work from that producer, you start, how did you get the next the next hands then

Allen Johnson 21:36
it was it was all kind of linked together. There were a couple other projects that came from that producer. There were other people that worked on that production in other capacities that went on to do other jobs, that ended up reaching out to me and said, Hey, I really like what you did here, you're easy to work with, I like how you collaborate, I have this idea, you know, or I'm working with this, or I've got this business partner, he wants to do this thing. Let's explore this idea. And it kind of ballooned out from there. So it was it was these links and chains. And then a couple of times, there were instances where I saw somebody that was working on a project that I liked. And I just contacted them, you know, online and just said, Hey, I really like what you're doing. This is a lot like the type of stuff that I enjoy doing. Here's my IMDb if you ever looking for another writer in the future, you know, I'd love to work with you. And once or twice that's been you know, they've come back, they haven't all worked out as far as getting all the way through production. But you know, just keeping an eye on just being a fan, you know, saying I like what you're doing. I want to be a part of it. Here's what I've done so far. You know, if you want if you'd love to want to collaborate, I'm here,

Alex Ferrari 22:51
you know, so you're basically you're hustling, sir. Yes, yes.

Allen Johnson 22:56
You know, and and again, it's it's it's kind of funny because one thing that I've had to accept as I I'm getting on in my ears, I'm not as young as I used to be, I'm now doing the dancing season, like a great chicken or something like that? I don't know. But, um, but I've had to manage my expectations a little bit more. What I think it's really important, at least for me in my career, to identify what am I willing to sacrifice to get my goals? What am I not willing to sacrifice to get older that does become very important changes, it changes I'm willing to sacrifice a lot to achieve my my screenwriting dreams. I'm not willing to sacrifice my relationship with my wife, I'm not willing to sacrifice my relationship with my kids. That means that sometimes my indie film hustle turns into a little bit more of an indie film shuffle. You know, it's it filmmaking over 40 in default shuffle, you know, but it's it changes you know, it it, you have to be at peace with that too. So as long as you're willing to establish You know what, you're willing to sacrifice what you're not willing to sacrifice, and then work towards that and be at peace with the rest you know, you can manage your expectations a little bit better from there.

Alex Ferrari 24:15
I think as you as you get older, you start to realize at least I have that you you start defining what happiness is for you. And you start defining what not only what you're willing to do what kind of BS you're willing to put up with if any as you get older but that that tolerance level goes way down than it used to like things I did in my 20s I would shoot somebody now if I had to do because I just don't have the patience for that anymore. I

Allen Johnson 24:45
don't got time for foolishness anymore.

Alex Ferrari 24:47
Yeah, I just don't and, and, and just being just understanding the definition of what makes you happy. is so powerful man because I really hope I'm really hope that people out there can just dive into that one question like, what makes me happy? Like, you know, what, what do I really need to be happy? And is it? Do I have to live in the Hollywood Hills and make a billion dollars? Sure, that's a dream, if you wanted to be a dream great, is it going to really make you happy? What are the chances of you getting to that point, in this lifetime, you have to be honest with yourself, I'm all about chasing that dream, don't get me wrong, that's what my whole thing is about. But be you know, like, I always say, like, follow your dream, but Don't be an idiot. You know, so,

Allen Johnson 25:42
and also translates well, to, you know, how we spend our time. I, I'm really disturbed by this growing trend of how much time people spend, especially online, discussing how much they hate something,

you know, so much wasted energy,

Alex Ferrari 26:00
if you were to take half of that time, right, and dedicated it to something constructive, or at least building up something that you like, you know, how much better you know, would it be, you know, you could, you can actually be generating something positive. And I've noticed that, you know, with, with people that you work with professionally, if somebody is constantly talking about how much they hate something and how much, you know, this is, this is horrible, and that's horrible, you'd want to work with that person, you want to be the the person who's who's upbeat, who's positive, who builds up, you know, and, and, and that took me a while to realize one of my, in my past, I was also a film critic for about a year for a small little newspaper, but you

did anything to be around the business, anything,

anything, and I enjoyed being a film critic in the in the sense that, you know, I got to go to all these screenings and stuff like that, and that was a lot of fun. I enjoyed that. Watch about four to five movies a week, you know, in the theater. But I was a terrible critic, I was bitter because I thought that's what I had to be, you know, that's that film school mentality. You know, if it's not black and white and subtitled, then it's just drivel for the masses, you know, anything that could remotely be, you know, commercially relevant, you know, that's, that's for the ground links down there, and your to the above such thing, and you start to buy into that stuff, and it's ridiculous. But then one day, you wake up and the sun is shining, and the birds are singing you think yourself, man, I just want to watch Andy punch some Nazis, man.

Allen Johnson 27:30
And you're wrong with that. That's, that's,

that's what I want to do. You know, and so that's, that's kind of been my thing. You know,

Alex Ferrari 27:37
I've been I've been pumping this theory out lately. And it's gonna be in a bunch of episodes coming up. And I've said it a couple times. But I think it's something it's a really great analogy about the disease that both you and I have. And it is a disease. I mean, once you get bitten by this, this virus, which is called being a filmmaker being in the film industry, it is there is no vaccination for there's no immunization for it. And I mean, it's kind of like herpes. It's kind of like, once you get it, you got it for life. It's sometimes it's dormant, but sometimes it flares up. And you know, and but no matter what you do, you're always a little itch. There's something like, you know, it's it's always there. It's a horrible analogy, but it's so

Allen Johnson 28:22
true. It is it is absolutely true. You know, and it's it's one of those things where, you know, it's when people ask you, you know, about writing, why would you do something like that, and you have other talents, don't you? And you respond to job, Nicolas, like, it's not that I can't do anything, but right, but I just can't do anything but right. You know, and they just sit there and blink at you. And you're like, Well, you know, that's they don't get it, either get it or you don't. And I am so incredibly blessed. I'm so fortunate that I have an incredible wife who supports me. Oh, amen. And, and, I mean, if you, everybody has got to have that person in their camp, whether it's a spouse, or a partner, or a friend or whatever, that's just support you 100% you also need the people that can call you out on stuff. And sometimes that could be the same person. Some, sometimes you can get somebody that you know, gives you honest feedback, that can really be critical, but loving, but you always need that person there to say no matter what, I'm going to believe in you. Because you have to have that life raft. It's way too hard without it.

Alex Ferrari 29:32
Yeah, there's no question. I mean, I couldn't have Well, there would be no indie film hustle without my wife. So I'd be straight up. I mean, if it wasn't for her, telling me Alex, do what you got to do. You're gonna and I still work and I still was doing post and I was still directing every once in a while, but she was the one that just kept supporting me. She's like, I know this is gonna turn into something. It's just gonna take time. I believe in you and that, that belief is what got me through you. All this time that I've been doing this, it's been a little over four years now that I've been with indie film muscle, and all the stuff I've done, but if it wasn't for her, it would have never, it really wouldn't have happened, you know, if I would have had someone nagging or jumping on top of me, like, what do you do go get a staff job somewhere, or no, she gave me the freedom to do what I need to do it. There's never underestimate the power of a good, a good partner, whether male or female, whatever, you know, whatever. Whatever support you can get man is so invaluable. And the thing you know, again, I wanted to have you on the show, man, because you represent something that I haven't had on the show before, which is somebody who's making a living outside of the Hollywood system. And to give people who are listening, hope that that can be done, because that is not an image that is projected anywhere. I don't see that anywhere. I don't see anyone talking about it. I don't see anyone saying, Hey, I live in South Carolina, and I'm a working screenwriter, like that is not something I see. I just don't see it. And I'm in this every day, right? I read everything. I'm in this all the time, I talked to a lot of people, I've never seen this. But that's why I wanted to kind of put this, this image out into the world and having you come on is so important, because I really do hope it gives people out there, not only in the US, but in the world. You know, and you know that they don't live in near a major city or they're, you know, in Calcutta somewhere or, you know, they're in South Africa or something like that, there's always a way to do it. It's just about being prepared when that opportunity knocks, but you've got to show up every day, with no expectations. You know, you got to show up every day with no expectations of what's going to happen. And if you just keep showing up every day, and I use indie film, hustle is such a good analogy for that. Because every day, I would show up, I would put up to podcast every day, I would put blog posts out every day. And at the beginning, you know, crickets. I mean, I did jump I didn't move fairly quickly. But it's still everyday just show up grind that grind. And you got to know

Allen Johnson 32:10
that one of the things that I talk about when I do my little classes and workshops, you know, a lot of people, especially the the more our tour variety, like to talk about the Muse and being inspired and stuff like that. Well, you know, sometimes you just got to tell that lazy old muse, I'm going to be here tomorrow, from three o'clock to eight o'clock. If you want to show up.

Unknown Speaker 32:31
That's where

Allen Johnson 32:32
I'm going to be here working. Yeah. And and sometimes she shows up, and sometimes she doesn't. That's fine. I still have a plan.

Alex Ferrari 32:41
Regardless, now, do you have an agent?

Allen Johnson 32:43
I don't know. It's,

Alex Ferrari 32:46
again, another beautiful example of like, Oh, you need an agent to get anything done? No, you don't?

Well, writers and agents ain't really talking these days anyway. So that's true that sir,

true that

Allen Johnson 33:00
aren't exactly on speaking terms at the moment. But

Alex Ferrari 33:03
are you? Are you union? By the way? Are you? Not? So do you have an agent at all? No, I don't. And that's another that's a great. Another wonderful thing about your story is that, like so many people will tell you in film school, you need an agent to get anything sold. Or you need an agent to have a career you don't.

Allen Johnson 33:21
Right now you don't you don't know, I would add something I would like to get it. I would like to get the point where I'm getting those wha wages, you know, and things like that. But that w ga and the ATR talking these days anyway. So I'm just you know, doing the thing that I've always done for the last 10 years, you're hustling

Alex Ferrari 33:38
outside the usual you're hustling outside the system, because you're not WETA that you're not in union. So you know, and then and again, your rate for screenplays varies, you know, because what is the what is the wg a minimum, I think isn't a 30 40,000

Allen Johnson 33:55
I think it's like 36 for a feature or something like that. It's been a while since I've looked at the schedule of minimums, but and again, with with so much new media stuffing, it's there's a lot of variety. And they've done a lot of a lot of work to try and make it affordable for different levels. So they got you know, the ultra low budget, low budget, and there's different ways that you can kind of use union riders and defer payments or break it up a little, a little bit. And I'm not an expert in that stuff. But yeah, I try to work with people's budgets. I try to make sure that it's you know, something that works for me. You know, and this is something again, my great wife has to keep reminding me of and I have a tendency to undersell myself, Oh, she she keeps on reminding me you're worth more than this. And so I need that voice in my head as well. To to help out with that.

Alex Ferrari 34:49
This is I'll tell you what this is, this is a another affliction that we have is that when you hustle so hard, and then And you'd like us, for me when I was coming out and post, literally anything that knocked on the door I took, right? I just took it because I was outside the system. So like, Oh my god, it's a job, I gotta take it. You know, I was an editor in Florida, you know, with the occasional directing job, which was rare. So I took anything, and I worked with any budget. That's why my IMDb is sick. It's stupid, right? It's so long, because I took every single project that showed up. And at a certain point, you know, you just have to like, Hey, I'm worth more than this. And it took my wife to tell me like, you can't, you can't keep doing this. You're killing yourself for a few grand. Like that's, that might have worked when you were 25. But you can't keep doing that. You know. So it's a mind shift. It's a mindset change that you have to kind of do in your head, because you're just, you're just like, it's that kind of like, Oh, I I if I don't take this, when's the next one showing up? So I got to, I got to take it in I underbid anybody else to get it. So make sure I get it. It's that kind of desperate mentality that we outside the system sometimes have

Allen Johnson 36:06
the imposter syndrome swinging in there. Like, if I were bid myself, you know, they'll they'll say, No, they'll realize that, you know, I don't really know what I'm doing, you know, and that type of, and then you read other people's screenplays. And you're like, Okay, I'm okay. I'm at least better than that. And that got made? So let me keep going, you know?

Alex Ferrari 36:25
Exactly, exactly. Now, I want to ask you, what is your writing process? Like? Do you have a daily writing process? How do you work, I

Allen Johnson 36:32
used to have a daily writing process. But with my kids, that kind of changes a little bit. So I kind of have to, to be flexible, and adjust. And a lot of it depends on you know, if I have an assignment or not, if it's something that I'm just writing spec, then I can kind of just go with the flow and write when I have time to do something like that. If I have a writing assignment course, my family's understanding, we kind of create blocks of time for me to work, things like that. But what I like to do, especially with assignments, is I spend a lot of time and outlining and developing, before I even type fade in, I would say that out of my entire the entire time that I spend writing, probably at least 65 to 70% of that is before I actually write the script, you know, so I really like to take a lot of meetings with the producer, the studio, the director, whoever's involved, and really make sure we get on the same page about what's going on. And I really try to, especially with all these things being, you know, low budget, low ultra ultra low budget things, I write to their assets. So we'll have meetings about you know, where are you planning to shoot this, you know, what type of things you already have, that you know, you want to use, that I can use in developing the story? Do you have performers that you know, you're going to cast in your movie? Can I see their real? Can I see some of their previous work? So I know how they deliver their lines, what kind of cadence do they have? Let me get inside their heads so I can deliver something that fits with the kind of characters that they do. You know, those type of things that I'll sit down and talk them to if they've had department heads set up like wardrobe or, you know, locations or, you know, stunts and special effects? What can I do to make your job easier? You know, what can you do? What can you not do? How long are you going to be shooting? You know, do you want to avoid nights? Do you want to avoid, you know, dealing with rain, you know, so I get all those questions answered beforehand. So that when I start writing my outline, everybody's already on, on, you know, on that same page with, okay, here's the things we're going to do. It's so much easier to change 10 pages of an outline, than realize you're on page 70 of a screenplay. And you got to go back and start over because something doesn't work. You know, when you're able to hand those those producers or that director that outline, and they can see what every single scene is where it's going, the things that they'll need. It's so much easier to change stuff in that moment, rather than do pumping out draft after draft after draft. And then, you know, having people kick around this 90 page document, as opposed to something that's 10 pages. So that's something that I usually try and do with a lot of these projects.

Alex Ferrari 39:26
You know what was great about that is you are really coming at it as being of service to your client, basically is where a lot of screenwriters have this ego, that it's like it's my work. It's my story. It's my screenplay. I'm like, No, dude, you were hired for a job and you're being paid for that job and you need to be of service to the client. You know, when you when you get to the point where you're Aaron Sorkin or Charlie Kaufman or Shane Black, that or Tarantino then you do whatever the hell you want. And it's a different conversation at that point. But you're still being of service and even these, even these screenwriters who are working on Avengers, I promise you that they were being of service to, to the

Allen Johnson 40:11
elite, they have a very specific sandbox that we're working on, you know, and then going back to, you know, talking about Star Wars, you know, we've seen a lot of writers come and go. And I really think a lot of that is probably because, you know, I'm not in the room, I don't really know. But I imagine a lot of that is, you know, the the producers say, here's our overall vision, you can work with this or not. And if you know, things get outside of that, and they decide, you know, I can't stand this box that you've given me, then you move on to somebody who can run the thing with independent stuff. It doesn't matter how artistic or eloquent you think your script is. If it's unsuitable, it's on producible, then they'll find somebody else to replace you with. So it's not so much selling out as it is buying in.

Alex Ferrari 40:57
Right, exactly. Now, I want to ask you, Ben, how do you stay motivated, when you're not surrounded by the business? You know, because like, for me, I mean, I live in Hollywood, I live in the mecca when I walk out my door, there's everywhere there's something about the business. And I know a lot of people outside Hollywood. That's like when you come to Hollywood. I'm sure you have you been you've been here, right? You've been to LA Oh, oh, I haven't. So if you get to LA one day, you walk around your mouth will be on the floor, and you'll be like, Oh my god, the streets are paved with gold. I was like that for about two years until they came cynical. You know, because when I first got it, it was just like, Oh my God, is that a post? Is that Warner Brothers? Is that Disney? Is that Sony? Like you just every everywhere you go, it's all about the business. You know, any coffee shop? That's the big joke, any coffee shop you walk into all you see is final draft everywhere, you know, and all this laptops. But you don't have that in South Carolina. I didn't have that in Miami. So how did you stay? Or how do you stay motivated to just kind of keep after this, this this dragon, if you will?

Allen Johnson 41:56
Well, I think that, you know, writing is one of those things where you have to be in love with the, with the process of writing, that's the thing that has to be pleasurable for you and rewarding because if you're chasing accolades, or or you're chasing the end result, you're going to be disappointed because production is an absolute meat grinder on scripts, you know, you you don't realize it at first, but the script that you write will not be the film that scene. And if I'm looking to see every single word that I put on this page beautifully, you know, blown up into to a big screen or on the TV exactly the way I wrote it. I can't use that as my vote of motivation, because it'll never happen. You know? If I'm, if I'm chasing, you know, that, that that name on the screen, yes, nice to see your name on the screen. But you know what, everybody gets rewritten.

Alex Ferrari 42:55
Everybody

Unknown Speaker 42:56
asked Oscar winning.

Allen Johnson 42:59
I mean, you had that great interview with john August a couple a couple of months back. And and he's one of the best writers in the entire business and he gets rewritten. You know, and, and kind of coming back to to my my story, you know, I've had, I've made 10 sales and three have made it through production. You know, john August has like, what eight or nine films on his IMDb but what do you say is sold like third or something like that he's

Alex Ferrari 43:26
worked on 30 or 40 projects. Same thing with Jim rules. You know, the writer of Fight Club. When you look at when you look at his IMDb, he's got like a handful of credits. But Jim doesn't stop working. He's constantly working on projects, but they just for whatever reason, they don't go over the finish line. And a lot of these single

Allen Johnson 43:43
writer, these guys never see the light of day.

Alex Ferrari 43:47
Yeah. And it said, and I love what john said, I love what john said, He's like, you've got to become kind of like a stock picker. like is this is this project have the legs to get to the finish line? Like what are the what are the you know, if I'm gonna take on this, this gig, it's not about the money anymore. It's about like, I want to see something produced. You know, so like, when Tim Burton when Tim Burton calls, generally speaking, those those projects get done.

Allen Johnson 44:12
Yeah, that's true. So yeah, to kind of come back, you know, full circle to your original question. And I have to be in love that story. Is this a place that I want to live for a few months? Is Is this exciting to me. So that's what keeps me motivated. Is is the the joy of writing, I enjoy that creative process. I enjoy collaborating, it took me a while to realize that I am one cog in the machine. But if I do my job really well, everyone else will, will be excited by that too. And things will run more smooth. So I have to be in love with you know what I do and the way I do it. And to me, that's that's you know, self motivating if you have to look to other sources, to be able to do something that you claim you love. It's not going to work out it's going to end You know, you You have to be able to self motivate, you know, you got to be in love with the process and and committed to that. And that doesn't mean you don't have bad days or bad weeks or even bad months or years.

Alex Ferrari 45:12
Bad years

Allen Johnson 45:14
there, I don't know anybody who has any job on the planet that hasn't at some point said, Man, this is a drag. And that's okay. You do that. And then you find other things to get your mojo back and you keep going.

Alex Ferrari 45:26
Right? It's about being in love with the grind. You gotta you've got to love the daily grind. You can't do this for the red carpet. You can't You can't do it for the red carpet. There's so many filmmakers who do it literally for the red carpet. And I'm like, dude, because when the red carpet is over, which is so quick, it's it's done. And then now what now you're depressed for like months because it takes forever to get

Allen Johnson 45:50
another project off the ground. And it's especially true for for writers because honestly, nobody cares about writers. It really don't. I was at a I was at a workshop once and a girl asked me if I was famous. And I'm like, No, of course not. I'm not famous. She's like what you write movies. So that's what's your favorite movie of all time? And she said like clueless or something like, who wrote that? She had no clue. Her most favorite movie of all time. She had no clue who the author she knew the author of her favorite book. She knew the stars of her favorite show. Right? You don't get famous and that's okay.

Alex Ferrari 46:22
There's there's there's only a handful that do and and and, you know, I mentioned a few of them. Sorkin, Tarantino Shane Black Kaufman,

most of those are filmmakers as well.

Unknown Speaker 46:32
like gold writers. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 46:35
You know, there's, you know, there's a handful of them. There's not a whole lot of them, that people really know who they are. Because it's it's you know, it's a thankless job. Unfortunately, it isn't.

It it's one of those things that unfortunately, and this this might sound a little self righteous, but that's okay. Cuz you know, we're having fun here. But it's one of those. It's like, it's like driving, everybody understands, because they know how it works. They think they know how to do it. Well.

Yeah, I watched I watched a movie. So I obviously to make one

Allen Johnson 47:09
steel industry. You know, with the film stuff, you know, if you sit somebody in front of a camera, there's a lot of buttons there. There's a lot of numbers on that thing. That's kind of scary. You sit somebody down in front of an avatar, like why are there colors on the keyboard? You know, this is ridiculous. This is scary. But you sit somebody down to write a story. They're like, Oh, I can make words I could write top to bottom left to right, you know, I can do this. This is easy, right? You know. So it's one of those things that unfortunately, especially with the independent productions, it's a little bit difficult to convince people, this is something worth investing in. You know, I'm worth investing in to get you a good script. And we're like, well, I can write a script. Anybody can write a script? That's easy. Maybe?

Alex Ferrari 47:52
Exactly. Now, I'm gonna ask a few questions. Ask all of my my guests, sir. What advice would you give a screenwriter wanting to break into the business today?

Allen Johnson 48:02
Study of the craft, study the, there's a lot of especially young writers get so caught up and so excited about the idea of breaking the rules being the rebel. And when you're starting out, it just looks like sloppy writing. There's a reason why this format is specific to the industry is because it tells other people how to do their jobs. If you don't know how to properly format, a slug line, when they go to drop that script into movie magic. It's going to get all screwed up. And they're going to have to spend extra time to fix the problems that you created, because you couldn't format a slug line properly. And you're not gonna get

Alex Ferrari 48:39
called again,

Allen Johnson 48:40
No, probably not. But if you can do that easy, and if you can say, Hey, you know what I can help you with tagging the props, and the vehicles and stuff like that on my end. So it can populate it, you know, when you drop it in, you know, you might earn yourself some extra points there. So that's certainly something that I would, I would suggest, you know, for for young writers to do. Study the classics. read as much as you can read screenplays, see how they work, see how they look on the page, study or genres, whatever you whatever you're writing, and whatever your wheelhouse is, you know, make sure that you understand that understand subtext. You know, for the love of God, please understand on the nose dialogue and how to avoid it. You know, and don't get so obsessed, especially when you're first starting out with trying to blow people's minds. You're knocking out inception, inception. It's just an action movie that the actors the characters themselves slept through, you know, so it's, it's, you know, you're not just learn how to be entertaining, learn how to tell a story. And then you can go and write your existential crisis piece that's in slow motion, and black and white and all that stuff.

Alex Ferrari 49:55
Why don't you try to build three or four houses the proper way and then if you want to create your Your, your masterpiece and have windows on the floors and doors in the ceiling, then do that. But I believe it

Allen Johnson 50:08
was David Mamet, in his book on directing, he had a story in there about I think it was in the 60s or 70s, there was a trend, called counterculture architecture are basically as all these hippie architect, architects were fed up with the fuddy duddy way that they used to do things back in the day. And we're gonna build build links based on how we feel, not a bomb these formulas, these these gross things that you know, you old guys use. And of course, it was a colossal failure. There's a reason why these blueprints exist. And you know, you need to need to figure that out. So then when you go to bend a few of the rules, you know exactly what you're doing, how far to take it, and you're doing it. So it serves a purpose in the story as opposed to just being a rebel, because that's cool. Because it's not your ego, you're feeding.

Alex Ferrari 50:59
It's the story you're feeding. Exactly. Now, can you tell me what book had the biggest impact in your life or career.

Allen Johnson 51:06
So when, you know, with most writers, when they start out, usually the first thing that they come in contact with is is Syd field screenplay. And, of course, that was one of the early ones that was influential. But the one that really struck out, struck me a chord with me was one called Lou hunters, screenwriting for 30, for the most obnoxious title ever. He was a screenwriting professor at UCLA. And it's essentially his class. And this is the first book that I had ever read, where he actually takes you through the entire process of writing the script. Here's how I gather ideas, here's some things that you can do to formulate ideas about stories, here's how I can develop characters. Here's how I give them personality, and voice. And he actually goes through and writes an entire screenplay inside the book showing you the process that he goes through. So it he essentially, you know, broke down this this mystification of how you somehow put all these words on a page, and it makes sense, into I'm doing these specific things to achieve this creative result. And so that was really, really influential to me. So Lou hunters, screenwriting for 34, you know, I have no idea if it's even still available. Of course, this is back in like, 2000 2001. So we're going back a little while Amazon,

Alex Ferrari 52:24
Amazon, actually, it was a great one. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life,

Allen Johnson 52:33
um, knowing my worth is a big one, knowing whose opinions really matter, I made the mistake with my first film, I read the comments.

Alex Ferrari 52:47
Don't do that.

Allen Johnson 52:50
You know, but you know, especially as a writer, you have so little control over the end result of that picture. Ever, it's never going to be exactly the way you wrote it. The The, the lines are never going to be delivered exactly the way you thought, people are going to make stuff up, the actors want to put their stuff in, anybody who has a voice on that set is going to want to change it in some way. And it happens. And that's the process and you kind of have to be at peace at that. So learn whose opinions really matter. And just ignore the rest because it really doesn't matter. Now, what

Alex Ferrari 53:25
did you learn from your biggest failure?

Allen Johnson 53:29
What did I learn from my biggest failure?

Unknown Speaker 53:33
I think

Allen Johnson 53:36
that I'm enough. That's like, that's

Alex Ferrari 53:39
one of our popular one. It's, it's,

Unknown Speaker 53:41
it's,

Allen Johnson 53:42
you know, it's one of these things where you, you get hammered by people. And there are legions of people out there that will tell you, you're doing the wrong thing. You don't know what you're doing. You're a hack, you're an imposter. And, and if you don't, if you buy into that, that can crush you. But realizing that you're enough, you know, that that can that can really bolster you and keep you afloat because there, you're vastly outnumbered.

Alex Ferrari 54:16
Fair enough.

Allen Johnson 54:18
So just being able to rely on that is is extremely helpful.

Alex Ferrari 54:23
Now, what is the biggest fear you had to overcome to write your first screenplay or just to become a screenwriter in general? Um,

Allen Johnson 54:33
that it's not going to happen when I want and how I want it.

Alex Ferrari 54:37
Yes, great. Would

Allen Johnson 54:38
you ever want to you know, get a good chuckle as some young filmmaker about their five year plan, you know,

Alex Ferrari 54:46
you

Allen Johnson 54:49
exactly these expectations and these ideas. By this time, I'm going to do this by this guy. You have all these grand ideas. And, and it's not going to happen that way. And it's okay. You'll You'll figure Hear it out,

Unknown Speaker 55:00
you know, three of your favorite films of all time.

Unknown Speaker 55:04
Well,

Allen Johnson 55:05
I would not be here having this conversation if it wasn't for Star Wars and Indiana Jones. It's it's cliche, but I am I am. I am no longer too ashamed to say that those popcorn movies have had the biggest impact on me and still remain my favorites to this day. I am so much of a fan. I even like to prequels. Alex, stop it.

Alex Ferrari 55:29
Stop it.

Allen Johnson 55:30
Stop. Listen, hot take hot take. I will I will contend that any complaint that people have about the prequels either can be explained within the context of the film's or has a precedent already set in the original trilogy.

Alex Ferrari 55:46
I'll go toe to toe I am I that's another episode for another time, sir. I listen, I just I just I just I actually I just watched five minutes the other day with her daughter for the first time because she's a Star Wars fan because I'm a good dad. And I it was horrible. It was it was really, really I mean like I was just looking at it. I'm like, I loved it when I first came out like I was like I was I drank that Kool Aid. I bought I you know, I did all of it. The the action sequences were fantastic. You know, the Padres I loved, but charger. Oh my god, it was just painful. I did enjoy Attack of the Clones better. And I and I think Revenge of the Sith is probably the best of those of that trilogy. Great. Hayden's acting could have been better you and was fantastic. One of the highlights of the series was without without that was you and Natalie Portman was basically just dressing. She didn't let her do what she does. It's it's a painful, it's a painful process to go through. And we I don't want to get into it, Alan. But I don't want to get into it. But I do tell people if you are introducing your kids to Star Wars, you have to watch it in this order. You watch new hope Empire, then Phantom, attack, revenge and then go to revenge of the Jedi. or excuse me, you turn to the Jedi. Okay, that's that's the original six. Then you continue from then you can and then you continue with the new trilogy, which I love the new trilogy. I think the new trilogy is fantastic. Fantastic. And I love the Rogue One.

Unknown Speaker 57:28
What was

Alex Ferrari 57:29
the greatest Darth Vader scene? Ever? Oh, yeah. You want to hear something funny. My buddy worked on that he worked on on the one and he was telling me He's like, dude, I would just sit there. And because they could have they could look at any clip in the system and ILM. So they would he would just grab the QuickTime for that sequence. And he would just played in the background on. He's like, it was just the greatest thing ever. Yeah. So sorry. Sorry, everyone, we're kicking out We will now stop.

Allen Johnson 57:59
So yeah, if you had to nail me down to one specifically, I'd probably go with empire that thought that was just a fantastic film. And of course, Raiders is just just so fundamental. And as far as the third one. The other film that was just incredibly influential for me was was Braveheart. That one was, I saw that at the time, I was working at a movie theater. And this was when I was, you know, in high school. And because I worked in a movie theater, I saw 26 times in the theater. Yeah. And, and that was the point where I think I decided, I don't know what this thing is or how it gets done. But I want to be included in something that generates this. You know, that was a childhood hero. That you know, the story of Wilma comes from Scottish heritage. And so that was just, you know, a dream come true to see that that thing on the big screen. And I wanted to be a part of that I had no idea how or why or you know what that was, that was what big calling cards, Fantastic Film fans.

Alex Ferrari 59:00
Now, where can people find you and your work and what you're doing?

Allen Johnson 59:04
Okay, well, I've got a website and it's long and obnoxious and we can just put that in the show notes. I'm on Facebook and I'm on Instagram, my Instagram is at Alan j underscore right fight that's a Ll e n, the letter J underscore WRI te si gh t because I write and I find

Alex Ferrari 59:25
nice, fantastic element. I really do. Thank you so much for being on the show. It's my pleasure. Thank you and giving everybody a new image of what a working screenwriter is and can be so I really do appreciate and I hope it does inspire and give some hope to a lot of screenwriters out there.

Allen Johnson 59:46
Well, it's not a pretty image but it's one that works there's a lot of mileage was it's not the years that's the mileage right that's that's how it, how it works out for us. But I'm absolutely tickled that I could, you know, be a part of this and try and give back To the tribe, I really admire what you're doing and how much you're giving out. And I think that it's just a wonderful thing and the more people that do this type of stuff, that that rising tide is gonna raise all of our ships.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:14
Thank you, brother. I appreciate it.

Allen Johnson 1:00:15
Thank you.

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