IFH 120: What the HECK is a Scriptment?

So what is a Scriptment? I found it to be a liberating form of prepping a story to be filmed? When I was in pre-production on my first feature film This is Meg, I wanted to get into production as fast as I could without waiting to develop a full screenplay.

I’ve written a few screenplays in the past and as any screenwriter will tell you, it ain’t easy. So I found inspiration from filmmakers like Mark DuplassJoe Swanberg, Lynn Shelton, and the Godfather of independent film John Cassavetes. According to Justin Ladar (writer of Mark Duplass’ The One I Love), he defines a scriptment as follows:

“Basically a full script minus a lot of the dialogue…If you take away exterior or interior sluglines, it reads like a short story.”

He explains what it was like working with Mark on The One I Love:

“What would happen is that I would script [the dialogue in] a scene the night before or while the crew was prepping. [The cast] would get the pages and they would see just from a pacing standpoint [what needs to happen and when].”

When I was working with Jill-Michele Meleán on This is Meg we came up with a style that would work for the budget and time we had. It was the most freeing experience of my creative life.

No pressure, no hitting your marks, and no drama (except in the story of course). As the director, I was there to capture the lighting. The remarkable actors that were cast in Meg brought themselves to the project.

Jill and I would discuss the scenes with each actor prior to the shoot day. We would have plot points in each scene that need to be hit for the story to move forward, how the actors got to those points was up to them. They would improv the dialog and flow at the moment. It was amazing to watch.

That energy spills off the screen when you watch my two feature films This is Meg & On the Corner of Ego and Desire.

 

The term “scriptment” was coined by the legendary filmmaker James Cameron, during his involvement in bringing SpiderMan to the big screen. Cameron wrote a lengthy 57-page scriptment for the first proposed Spider-Man film (read the James Cameron SpiderMan scriptment here).

According to Wikipedia,

“Cameron’s scriptment for Titanic (1997) was 131 pages. The term became more widely known when Cameron’s 1994 scriptment for the 2009 film Avatar was leaked on the internet during pre-production, although other directors, such as John Hughes and Zak Penn, had written scriptments before. The scriptment for Avatar (2009) and its notoriety caused the spread of the term.”

Though James Cameron used a scriptment as the starting point of the screenplay, Mark DuplassJoe Swanberg, and Lynn Shelton used the scriptment as the blueprint of the film. Take a listen to my explanation of what a scriptment is to me and how it can jump-start your first feature film.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:00
So guys, today's show is all about giving you freedom to make your feature film. And I you know it this is one of the most freeing experiences that I ever had while I was making this is mag is being able to move so quickly through the creative process, from from idea to script meant to shooting it, editing it, finalizing it. And we did it all within I think about four months, literally from the idea all the way to the final edit and color and export. And it was such a freeing amazing experience that I wanted to share with you guys what exactly it was. And hopefully you guys can do something similar for your first few films. Now, what is a script meant? Scripting is basically a full script minus all of the dialogue. It allows it takes away a lot of the exterior, the interior kind of slug lines, and reads like a very cool short story. Now, I'm not the first to think about Scrivener is by any stretch. Mark Duplass has been doing it basically his entire career as well. I mean someone like James Cameron and Quentin Tarantino, they love writing scripts prior to writing their screenplays. But what Mark does is he actually writes the script and and that is what he uses to make his movies. So what he likes to do and I'll tell you from from what I heard about what Mark does and to also what I did was you reverse engineer your story based around things you have around you. Robert Rodriguez did this so to Kevin Smith, these guys, this is not a new concept. I think it needs to be a lot of people need to remind be reminded of what this could what this very powerful thing is for especially for first time filmmakers for people just you know, just starting out people who just want to make a feature film, and, and not get caught up in the drama, if you will of writing a screenplay at the very beginning of their career. You know, I've written screenplays before. They're very taxing. They're very, they're rough. You know, as anybody will tell you, they're rough they write they can be extremely rough to deal with. But I didn't want the writing and the formatting and all this kind of stuff to kind of get in my way of telling the story that I wanted to tell with Jill on this as Meg. So we decided, hey, let's just do this. Kind of like the league, the effects show the league did or Reno 911 or Curb Your Enthusiasm. All these guys have very loose scripts. So they would just start with an idea and structure it out very well. And that's it. That's the misnomer. That's a kind of myth about scripts, or about these non scripted feature films or television shows as they are scripted, but there's just scripted in a different format than you're normally used to. So let's say that you were going to do, you know, like, again, I'll use Meg as an example, what I did was,

I took, I took me and Joe sat down, and we're like, Okay, what do we have access to, okay, we have my office, my back office, your house, this other house, this other house, this other location. And we'll you know, we'll go up to the Hollywood sign and do a location shot there. And we'll grab some stuff on the street and be like, okay, boom, boom, boom. And once we knew all of our locations, and all the things we had access to, we started riding around that idea, and started building everything around what resources we had at our disposal. And by doing that, we were able to construct a screenplay or a scriptment fairly quickly, Jill, did a lot of heavy lifting, and came up with a story. I gave her my notes and like, hey, no, you know, what, we have this location, let's try to change it over here. And, you know, gave her some guidance in regards to the production aspects of things what we had access to, but, you know, she came up with this scriptment that was, at the end, almost like 45 pages, so wasn't like, you know, we just throw a three or four page outline together and ran, it was it was a pretty detailed script meant, and there were scenes that were fully scripted out. And there were other scenes that were very loosely screened, or scripted out, you know. So, once the movie gets released, I can talk a little bit more about specific scenes in the movie. And you guys, and inside the inside the indie film Syndicate, I'm going to be going over this in detail in the coming weeks and months, on on how exactly we did this. So by doing this guy's, we were able to get this movie done so so quickly. And, you know, a lot of people who work with Mark do plus, you know, especially screenwriters, they just get are in awe of how quickly they're able to put stuff together, like he'll come up with an idea. And six months later, they're done, like literally done six months later, because he keeps the budgets very low. And that's the other thing too, you keep the budget very low, you use what you've got, it's a collaborative art, you need a lot of help from a lot of different people to make something like this happen. But it's extremely doable. And you write around what you have. And it's not that difficult to do, honestly, you have to use proper structure, you have to get your storyline and everything organized properly, have your your points, your hero's journey, or whatever kind of story you want to tell if it's a three act story, if it's four Act, or 6x story, or two acts story, you can do so but just organize it out. And then when you get on the set, this is what happens. When you get on the set. You've already hopefully talked with your actors prior to get on the set. When you do that, when you get on the set, you could start riffing, and you go, Okay, guys, this is what the scene is really about. We need to we need to hit this point, this plot point, this plot point, and this plot point. And we have to hit these marks, how you get to those marks is completely up to you. But we need to hit these marks in order for the story to continue to move forward. And when you allow actors to really feel free to do so. The magic that comes out is pretty remarkable. Now again, you have to hire the right actors who are really kind of versed in improv, and are comfortable doing this. But you'll be surprised at a lot of actors who are able to do this. And also, you know, when you're casting actors, this is on a side note when you're casting actors, try to cast people who are very close to the role that they're going to play that there is not it's not a complete stretch for them to do I mean look, Daniel Day Lewis is Daniel Day Lewis, Robert De Niro's Robert De Niro. And you know, all these guys do Meryl Streep's Meryl Streep, generally speaking, if you as a director, or as a filmmaker can cast someone who's close to the character that you are trying to have them portray, it's going to make things a lot easier, because at the end of the day, you don't want them to act. You want them to be, you want honesty out of those performances. And if they can be themselves and just come up with lines or read lines that you've written for them, all the better. And that's how fast that's how we were able to do what we did on this as make so fast is we, you know, Jill actually wrote the screenplay, or wrote the script meant around her friends. And she talked to her friends before she wrote the scenes. And she knows like, Look, I know this person, and I'm going to write the scene based on her or based on him on their characters on their, their people. And, you know, I know I can get this performance out of Carlos or Deborah or Joe or Krista. And and, and that's how we wrote the scenes out and we kind of found things on the day, and it's so freeing, it's so exciting and so fun because you really don't know what's going to happen as a director as a filmmaker. And a lot of times I was just there trying to capture the lightning in the bottle. That was my job was there to just capture the lightning that was coming off in front of that lens.

It's my job to capture it, and then to mold it when I get into the editing room. But that is the power of a scriptment. And it's something that I think a lot of filmmakers, you know, the screenplay, at least for me, was always this big monstrous thing that had to be perfect and had to be read perfectly and you know, if the the formatting wasn't right, or the the way you said things wasn't right, or this or that it just created so many obstacles from actually going out and making your movie that I think that discriminant is a way to loosen those shackles, if not shake those shackles completely off, where you could, in theory, grab 1000 bucks and go make a movie. You know, grab a camera, grab some lights, maybe even lights, maybe no lights, grab some audio, get some friends together make a movie, this is what Mark Duplass did. This is what Joe Swanberg did this is what Lynn Shelton did, you know these guys all did that, and they kind of just ran with it. And they made some really fun, heartfelt movies by doing so. And I don't think it's something that you guys can't do yourselves. Now, it also depends on the kind of story you're trying to tell guys. If you're trying to tell a story. That's super action packed, big thing, you know, big action sequences and all that kind of stuff. This, this process might not work for you this is this process will work. You know, though I am I'm interested to one day try this formula on an action movie, or on a horror movie. I'm really curious to see. And I might do that in the future, just to see what happens. You know, and it has been done to the horror genre, as well. So, you know, well, I mean, the biggest example of that was Blair Witch, The Blair Witch Project was done, they did that there was literally no script, they just kind of were guided along and the actors kind of made everything up as they went along. So it can it can work in those genres as well. But if you have a lot of big science, you know, big science fiction or big visual effects and things like that, you really have to plan certain things out. But there's no reason why it's some of the dialogue in those scenes cannot kind of riff like this, but again, you have to keep that budget low. And you know, I kept I kept the budget under 25 million, like I say all the time. afford this is Meg and kept it in a budget range that I felt very comfortable with by doing this kind of this kind of work, but I know that Mark do plus and those kind of guys they'll work with, you know, under a million dollar budget, sometimes a little bit over a million dollar budget. You know, I know drinking buddies the movie with Olivia while Jake London, and a Kendrick by Joe Swanberg. They, that movie budget was about $550,000 I'm like, that was his biggest movie ever, budget wise. And that movie was completely done by this way. It's just that was his. That's, that's Joe's process. That's how he likes to to work. And I understand I once I did it with this as Meg, it's so fun, so freeing, and the actors get to really have fun with the characters and create the characters on the fly. And by just being able to loosen things up a little bit. It works so wonderfully. And again, this is not for everybody. But I think for a majority of you guys out there for at least a portion of you guys listening to this, this might be a way for you to get off the ground to get your first feature made, you know you do very low risk, again, 1000 bucks. You know, if you guys can't raise 1000 bucks by asking your parents and friends, you're in deep trouble my friends. So you gotta at least raise a grand, let's say, get somebody who owns a camera or shoot it with your iPhone, for God's sakes. Do something like that. Make sure your sound is good, make sure your visuals are decent. And go tell your story make a movie, there's very little risk involved there. When you start getting into the 50 100,000 to 200,000 million dollars, you guys better know what the hell you're doing. You know before before you get going, you better have a distribution plan and all that kind of stuff. But at this level at that low budget. Under $10,000. You can you can have some fun and experiment. So if you don't feel comfortable doing with a feature film right away, do it with a short, you know, take take 50 bucks, take 100 bucks, and go make a few shorts like this. Get your feet wet. And see how it works. Do a few scenes do a few five minutes short films like this. Again, keep the budget really low 100 bucks, you know no more because if you start doing like 234 100 500 bucks, well shit then you could go make a feature at that point. But anyway,

I just hope that this this podcast kind of helps you guys understand that there is another option out there for you. There is another path to make your first feature film that you don't have to go the traditional route Out of getting a screenplay like getting it developed going through all of the rigor Maryrose submitting this to a to actors and so on. And again, at the beginning guys, I know, I know a lot of people are gonna have this question like, Well, Alex, if I have a script, and I've never done anything, can I approach named talent? I'm gonna probably say no, unless you have a relationship with that name talent, or some somebody like that it's going to be very difficult. We were lucky that Jill had very, you know, you know, they're her friends. And they were able to reach out to her friends and and we were able to do this in this fashion because they trusted her, and they trusted me. But when you're starting out, don't don't worry about getting actor like big name actors, if you can. Great. It all helps, you know, even if it's you know, TV actors, or people that we recognize are just good solid. performers. Great. But don't get caught up in that. That's another obstacle. Again, you go look at Mark Duplass. Go look at Joe Swanberg. Oh, look at Lynn Shelton. All of those movies when they first started out, did not have names in them. They just wanted to tell a good story with their friends, or people that they knew who can act, and so on. So that's what I would recommend for you guys to do as well is to go in, get a bunch of your friends or actors that you can find, to go out and have some fun with. And that's a big key point, guys have fun. This should not be stressful. There should not be anger, and high jinks and drama and all this kind of stuff. It should be fun, guys, if not you'd go out and get real jobs. You know what I mean? I know it's hard work. And I know it's sometimes it's stressful. And I know, it can be a little bit overbearing, sometimes making, making movies and being an artist in this sense. But at the end of the day, man, you have to have fun. And if you don't have fun, that shows up on the screen. And when you guys finally see this as Meg, I hope you can sense the fun we had. We had no drama at all ever on the set. We everything flowed so beautifully, so wonderfully all the way through the editing to the final part to the final, you know, cut of the movie in the final color in the mix and everything. It all just worked so beautifully. And I've never I've never experienced an artistic endeavor like that in my entire career. And I was like, wow, because I completely loosened the shackles. I completely just said, Fuck it. I'm just gonna go out and do this, I'm not going to think about it. I'm not going to think about, oh, I got to do this, or I got to do that. And this is the way I have to do I finally after 20 odd years, decided, You know what? I'm not gonna listen to what everybody else is doing and do and I'm going to do it my way. And for me, it's working, you know, and I did again, I did make a budget that I can feel very comfortable with that I can continue to do those kind of movies indefinitely if I have to. You know, Joe Swanberg made, has made like 32 feature films, you know, when you have made six feature films, you know, I'm going to put in the show notes, my links to both Mark do plus and just wants Berg's keynote addresses at South by Southwest and, you know, backgrounds on both those guys because if you want to study, you know, people the process, these guys are definitely two guys that you should definitely look look for, look at and study their processes. And again, of course, the show notes are at Indie film hustle.com forward slash 120. But, but again, Jo Jo was one of those guys that just kind of decided to keep making movies, he's like, Well, if no one's gonna pay attention to me, at least I want to be prolific. And that was such a great way of looking at, he's like, I'm just gonna keep making movies. And he'd made one year he made six feature films. He made it with his you know, I think I don't know if it wasn't VHS, but it was mini DV cameras. You know, he just went on shot with a bunch of friends, no stars, no faces, no marquee value.

He just said, Hey, I'm gonna go make some indie movies. And he did. And he sold them. He did some for a lot. But he sold them and he was able to make that year he said he was able to make 50 or $60,000 by selling six movies, you know, and having some other movie money come in, in that keynote address. He really talks a talks a lot about the financials, of how he was able to make it and it's so wonderful to hear. It's very honest, and tells you exactly what you want to hear. So definitely check that out anything else.com forward slash 122 in the show notes for his his keynote speech because it's it's really amazing. But back to scripts. Again, I just want to give you guys the tools to feel free to make your movies no matter where you are in the world. I want you to be able to feel free to make these kinds of movies and just go out and make them and then from there that grows to the next level and the next level the next level. And one last thing before I go guys, I want you to just please and I've said this before in the podcast, but I'm going to continue to repeat this until people understand it. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. You can't expect every movie that you make, to be the homerun, to be that one lottery ticket win that you're looking for. When you put that kind of pressure on the movie, it will succeed, you will be you will fail many times, and you are setting yourself up for failure. With this as Meg, I am putting it out into the universe, I'm putting it out into the world. And whatever happens happens, people will love it, people will hate it. I know that for a fact that people will love it, and people will hate it. That's it. And there'll be some people in the middle and other people on the extremes. And that's just the way it is. That's just the way it happens with all arts. So you have to prepare yourself for that. But am I expecting it to get you know, to get into Sundance and when me the lottery ticket? No, because you know what I didn't get into Sundance. And it wasn't the end of the world. Because I was excited. I was like, hey, if I get it great. If I don't, let's go on, you know, so you always go for you always aim for the fences. But understand that don't put the pressure that if it doesn't, your whole world is over and you can't make any more, I want you not to feel that way, I want you to feel like I'm going to make five feature films. And I'm just going to keep going no matter what. And you make them at a low enough budget that you could keep going, you could have a day job and save yourself up 1000 bucks, find yourself somebody with a camera or shoot it with your own iPhone, and you make your movies. And that's how you do it, you just keep going. But the thing is that if if you're going to go and I'm going to use baseballs and analogy, because it's a great analogy. But if you're going to go up to the plate, a lot of filmmakers will go up to the plate for the very first time. And they expect to hit a homerun when they've never taken a swing. That's what happens with most filmmakers. Most filmmakers have not been shooting commercials or music videos, or short films, or anything for a long period of time where they have gotten a lot of swings at bat. You know, I've gotten a tremendous amount of swings at bat. But I've never want I've never done one with a feature. But I've done a lot of other shooting in my career. So I feel comfortable up there at the plate, you've got to feel comfortable up there at the plate. So Robert Rodriguez before he made mariachi, he shot like 20 or 30 short films, he do it every weekend. And he didn't show those films to anybody. The no one, he was just doing them to practice, because he's kept going up there and swinging away, swinging away. Sometimes you hit maybe he'd made it single. Maybe he fell out. If you guys don't know about baseball, you got to look up the rules. But anyway, um, but that's what he did. And that's what I plan to continue doing with my features. Because I think what you need to do is you got to focus on those singles, those doubles, possibly some triples, instead of going for the home run every time. Because if you focus on those singles, so let's say, you know, let's say you make a movie and that movie, you know, you made for 1000 bucks, and you sell it for 4000 bucks you make on it. We've made four times your money. Well, how that's a success for me. It might not be the game winning home run, but damn, you made money as a filmmaker. You're, you're the top 1% of filmmakers if you're able to do that. So what do you do next, you make another movie for maybe $2,000 This time, I if it was me, I'd make I make another movie for 1000 bucks. But that's just me. But you make another move for 2000 bucks this time. And let's say you go out there and you make another 4000 bucks, you doubled your money. And you move on and you make another movie for 2000 bucks. And that other movie makes 10,000 bucks. And all of a sudden somebody's looking at you some people are like, hey, this guy's making movies. This girl's making movies. How much do you need for your next movie? You go well, I you know, I feel comfortable. Now. I need about six or $7,000 to make the next movie. I want to 10,000 bucks for the next movie. Okay, great. Now mind you, you're working other jobs to make a living and all this stuff, but you're making art and you're making you're building up a business and it takes time to do that. So I want you guys to focus on the long game. And I've said this a million times, focus on the long game and a scriptment can do that for you can help you get that movie made very quickly where you could, in theory, make a movie, two movies in a year once you get the ball rolling. Next year, I'm going to announce a dish. I'm going to announce it that today. I'm already in prep for my next movie. I'll announce it after the New Year sometimes I don't know I'm working on this on the scriptment as we speak and and I already have a second one I'm working on as well. So my goal next year is to shoot one feature and at least begin either shooting or in pre production on the second one and see how see if I can do two in one year. That would be ideal for me next year. without anything happening with this as make you see you notice I'm not even paying attention to this as make, you know, Mrs. Maga is going to do what she does. But I'm not putting any pressure on her. I'm moving, I'm moving along with her without her without anything that she happens to bring, if she gets sold for a million bucks, or for five grand, or, you know, it gets a manager or it gets a producer to come in and give me money for another movie, I'm not counting on any of that. I'm only counting on what I can control. And what I can control is going off and making another movie and, and getting ready to make a third movie and so on. And that's the mentality that I think filmmakers starting out who want to tell their stories who want to make a living doing this have to do and I hope this podcast brought some light into your into your darkness now brought some light to the subject and shows you and kind of informed you that there is another way there is another way to go make a movie, there is another way to get your feature filmmaking career started and going off and by the way, this can work for series too, if you want to make a little pilot and like a bunch of like you know, a webisodes you know, web series. Or you know, you want to create a pilot to pitch to Netflix or to Hulu, or Amazon or crackle or one of these guys, this process works wonderfully. Because if you're able to create and this is what Mark Duplass I'm gonna go back to mark my man Mark, he was able to pitch togetherness, an HBO show and ran two seasons on HBO based on this premise. This is how he worked on that show. I don't know how he did a pilot or anything like that beforehand, but but this is how he did the show. And it was wonderful because it was very low cost. And you know what studios love low cost high quality, they love that. And if you can get something out to a point where you can do that, you're going to work you're always going to work, guys. So just keep that in mind. So it can translate to a lot of things. But we're focusing on feature films right now. But that's I hope this helps you guys. I really do. Because I you know, I think sometimes I've had to go through all this pain in my career, to be able to share this, this information with you guys. And I hope that I can continue not going through pain. Hopefully we don't go through too much more. But you know what, at the end of the day, guys, honestly, your failures and your pain is who makes you what makes you a better person. And what makes you a more informed person to make sure you are who you are. So all these years of struggle and everything that I've gone through, I'm hoping that my journey can be a beacon of light for you guys at least a beacon of information to at least share it with you what I'm doing. And hopefully it can translate and help even one of you guys out there.

It's worth it. I know that sounds really cliche, but but that's, that's I think it makes sense. So thank you for listening to my ramblings this week guys, I hope it was helpful to you and we will continue doing more ask Alex episodes in the future you guys keep sending me tons of questions. So I had no idea that this was going to be such a big deal. So I'm glad I'm helping you guys out I'm glad you like the episodes and and please keep sending your your suggestions for questions at ifH [email protected]. And also guys don't forget the show is also sponsored by masterclass and you gotta head out to indie film hustle.com For slash masterclass to get access to Werner Herzog's master class the Oscar winning a director as well as Aaron Sorkin screenwriting masterclass, which is honestly remarkable I again taking it again since I'm going through my my process right now, it's my scriptment for my next project, as well as now the new Hans Zimmer film score masterclass, is up. And as far as also acting, the Kevin Spacey masterclass, and the Dustin Hoffman, Master Class learn their techniques. They're on my list of things to watch. I've actually purchased them already, because I want to I want to see what Dustin and Kevin have to say about acting. I mean, it's invaluable these courses, so head over to indie film hustle.com forward slash master class. So as always, keep that hustle going, keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage – Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. AudibleGet a Free Filmmaking or Screenwriting Audiobook
  3. Rev.com – $1.25 Closed Captions for Indie Filmmakers – Rev ($10 Off Your First Order)

IFH 114: The Six Stages of Character Development with Michael Hauge

This week we have a returning guest, screenwriting guru Michael Hauge. In this episode, he discussed The Six Stages of Character Development. A very eye-opening episode.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 2:00
So today guys, I've got a special treat for you. We're going to discuss what it takes to get really good characters and I've got a friend of the show Michael Hauge, he is going to be discussing the six stages of character development. And a lot of people are confused about characters, and how to develop each character making really amazing characters like a Walter White from breaking bad. Or Hannibal Lecter from Silence of the Lambs, or whatever any any great character you can think of in history. They all started with some development. And of course actors bring a lot of panache to the character. But it all starts with what's on the page. So he's going to go over those six stages for you. And this is part of this is a kind of a sneak preview of the course that Michael and I released called screenwriting and story blueprint, the heroes two journeys, which also includes another mega star in the screenwriting world, Chris volger, the writer of a writer's journey, based on Joseph Campbell's work, and the course is pretty pretty amazing. If you guys want to get about 25% off, head over to indie film hustle.com forward slash story blueprint, that's indie film hustle.com Ford slash story blueprint and it'll take you right there, you'll have 25% off the the course and it's awesome. It's a really good course about three hours on really understanding character, story, structure and everything. And it goes from two different perspectives Michael Hague's perspective, and Chris Volkers perspective, and how they meet in the middle and have different ideas about story, and it's really wonderful to watch. And they were really awesome. And as you know, both of them have been guests on the show, and I will leave links to their podcast episodes, to show notes at indiefilmhustle.com/114. So without any further ado, enjoy Michael Hauge.

Michael Hauge 4:27
And that brings us back to this six stage structure. Now I used to think that character arc just occurred in its own sweet time, wherever it was. And I think if you read my book, I sort of refer to it that way. I say there's a structure to the plot, but not to the character arc and I was wrong. I think there's a very clear structure to the arc for the character. Because each of the six stages I gave you before correspond to a stage of the hero's inner journey.

Even though through the movie, there is a constant tug of war between identity and essence, there is also an That's why they call it an arc. It's a gradual transition or transformation. So in the setup, remember that first 10% this is where your hero exists completely and totally within her identity. Shrek is just an ogre, who keeps people away. Rows is just a woman who exists in all of this protective wealth. Mitch mcdeere is just a guy who is going after money. He says, Daddy, did you ever believe that I'd be able to make this kind of money. And she says sure, because of course, she sees his so we're going to get back to her in a second, then an opportunity at 10% is presented to the hero. And for the next 15% of the film, in that new situation, not only are they getting used to the new situation, your hero is going to get a glimpse, a peek at what life would be like living in his essence. So not only does rose start getting acclimated to the Titanic, starts to get a sense of what the other thing might be cuz she sees jack making these passionate drawings. And she looks in any catches are looking and she looks away. And she has this beautiful art that nobody else understands. But she it touches her. And in Shrek, it's it's there's this very pointed moment. Which also is, to me a very subtle form of it, it'd be interesting to see if Chris agrees, because I haven't talked to him about this. But it seems like there's a very subtle but obvious sense in which trek is refusing the call. Because he steps out. And he says, All I want is privacy living in his identity. And then what's the opportunity, all these fairy tale creatures, and he says, Oh, no. And he says, I want you, I want to get you off my land are going to do whatever it takes to get you back. And he thinks they're going to just run away. And instead they all applaud. And somebody comes up and drapes a robot over him, there must be some name for a royal robe. It's like he's been crowned you're our hero. And he, he like shakes his head and immediately shrugs it off. He's getting a glimpse of what it would be like to be accepted. But he wants nothing to do with it. He just wants to be in his identity. But he's still getting a picture of it. Then what happens? stage three goes into in, or that leads him into the new situation. Same thing happens when he goes to Lord for quad. It's preceded by him fighting off the soldiers who come after him. And it's like a mock wrestling match like a WWE f match. And when it's done, there's this scene just for a joke where he's going like this, he says thank you, thank you. I'll be here till Thursday. And it's just sort of a but it's also look at this. Now he's starting to accept the possibility of being a hero, getting more of a glimpse. And then of course, at the one quarter mark, Lord farquaad says, okay, you want your land back, here's your goal, rescue the princess, bring her back to me. That's the outer motivation. That's the visible goal. And it happens precisely at the 25%. So now what happens for the next stage, the hero is straddling the fence or straddling something, one foot into essence, one foot back, not fully committed. He's still talking about onions and layers, and he just wants to go in and get the princess take her back and be done with it. But he is starting to pursue something that is going to make him more of a leader more popular, more accepted. That's good. And he's starting to get closer to donkey, which takes risk because he's never really had a friend before. And then at the midpoint, he gets the princess they come down the hill precisely at the midpoint, what happens he takes off his helmet and tries there's that wonderful moment when he smiles that sort of toothless smile, trying to look his best. Okay, and now he realizes Wait a minute, I'm starting to fall for it. And that's the point of no return. Especially because the scene that follows it this also runs parallel for the princess but the princess has been talking in this artificial language. Now aren't my prince and Duff thou want to save me and you thou must carry me and give me a kiss and all this malarkey. And that's her living in her identity.

She is the opening shot of the princess is her in a tower a perfect image. Have identity, because towers are both protective. And their prisons. Exactly the same opening in Shakespeare in Love opens in a castle. So she's perfectly protected. She's, you know, there and safe and apparently well fed and stuff, but she can't leave. She's stuck. And of course her identity is she is defined by others because she's defined by fairytales. She knows all the rules, you know, you've got to carry me away, and then you got to give me a kiss. And he says, You've had a lot of time to think about this, haven't you? Because he's saying, this is your identity, but he sees her as something more. And then later when they have the Robin Hood encounter, and she shows that Charlie's Angels parody kick, he starts to respect her as something more than this hothouse flower that he's rescuing. And they start to fall in love. So that's the point of no return, he starts pursuing her until he overhears her. He gets too frightened when he hears her talking about ogres as too ugly, and you can't have a relationship with an ogre. He doesn't know she's talking about herself, because she's also retreating at that point to her identity. But that's when major setback typical for a romantic comedy, which is what this is, the two people will separate at that point. In Sleepless in Seattle, right at the three quarter mark, Annie, the Meg Ryan character declares, I'm back I'm going back to Walter Sleepless in Seattle is history. And of course, then the audience thinks that all is lost. Because what's happened is on the inner level, once the character passes the point of no return, they fully commit to living in their essence, trek is going to open up and risk doing that. And now the outside world starts coming in the conflict in the first half of Act Two, and someone was asking about that, that first half the conflict comes from obstacles inherent in the goal, the moat and the dragon and all the things we knew he was going to encounter. But now what happens is the other worlds coming in, he doesn't think she can love him. Lord farquaad comes in and takes her away. And so the hero retreats, the hero gets finally so frightened of risking this new thing that they make one last try retreating to their identity. And that really is the major setback at the end of Act Two. So they run away. And they go back, it's when she remember, she jumps on the lifeboat. Go, it's the the lifeboat for the rich. She's gonna make one last stab at being rescued in Titanic by her identity. And then she says what all heroes must then say, in stage five. And that is, wait a minute. This sucks. This may have worked for me at the beginning. But I've had a glimpse, I've had a taste of who I truly am. This doesn't work for me anymore. I can't do this, I have to go after who I truly am. I have to be myself. And I certainly have to find my destiny, which in a love story is the other person. And so that's the final push. It's saying I don't care what it takes, I will risk death. Because I already I already experienced it. My identity is already dead. I can I can do this. And they take every last ounce of courage they have until they reach the climax. And the climax is the moment not only of achieving that visible goal, it's the moment of fully realizing the character's essence. And that takes us into the aftermath. The aftermath is the part of the story where we say, Okay,

this is now the new life, the hero is going to live having fully realized who they truly are. And so at the end of Shrek, we see him leaving the swamp that was his protection and leaving behind the fairytale creatures. Because the fairy tale creatures were her identity. This is a this is really a movie about getting rid of the fairy tale definition of the way you should be or the way life is and defining themselves. So they ride off into the sunset. And they're fully living their essence or when he says at the end of the firm. Okay, we're we're going back to Boston. It was interesting when Chris was talking about the elixir because sometimes it's very subtle, but I think the elixir in that movie is the law. He's saying we're going right back where we started, which is I mean, there's a circular pattern if you ever saw one. But now he's going back to the law because he says when he's talking to Ed Harris, in that movie, the FBI guy, and he says, here's the tape of our conversation where you tried to bribe me really forced me to do this. He says, You know, I could you I could get a lot for this or something like that. He says, Why are you giving it back? Just because it's against the law. And then he says, You know what you did. He says, You made me remember the lies that four years of law school didn't do that. But you made me remember the law, meaning you put me in touch with who I truly am, which is someone who stands up for what's right. And then when Abby comes back, there's that wonderful line, where he says, Did I lose you? And she says, How could you lose me, I have loved you, since the moment I knew you. And before I loved you, I loved the promise of you. And you have now fulfilled that promise. That's what brings two people together, she says, I see, I have always known who you truly are, you just had to step up into it. And you've done that. So now you cannot lose me. Because that's who I was always in love with. Not the guy who was scared of the trailer park, who had forgotten the law, the guy who lived his essence. And so the elixir that they take back is he has found his ideals. And now he's going to go back and be a lawyer that stands up for what's right, and go serve the law, our society, whatever, in a different way at the end of the story. And one last thing before I open it for questions, which you may or may not want to hear, but as I said, at the top, this is very much about real life. Everyone in this room has a visible goal might be slightly different. But you either want to finish a script. Or you want to get an agent, where you want to finish your novel or you want to get it published, you want to get your movie produced, you want to finish your film, or you have some brass ring you're after. Because you long at a deeper level to be a part of making movies. And you are pursuing that goal, because it's part of your learning. That's the good news. But here's what I got to tell you. We all pay lip service to what we long for. There's a part of all of us that we frequently we always have to go back and revisit that you can say, Yeah, I want to make it in Hollywood. But what you also have to ask is how would you fill in the blank, I'll do whatever it takes to sell my script. Just don't ask me to blank. I did this as an exercise in a classroom in Switzer with one of my students. And I said, Would you be willing to go through this process? So she got up in front of the room? And she said, The thing is, I can't figure out why I can't sell my script. She says I've written a number of scripts. And I said, Well, have you read books on screenwriting? Yeah, I've read, you know, books I've taken classes will do have a regular regimen. Now I write every day. And I said, God, it sounds like you're doing everything you can do. And she said, Oh, yeah, because when I grew up, I was taught, if you want something done, you do it yourself. So I turned into the sort of shrink slash asshole that I sometimes am prone to be. And I say, let me ask because she was making an identity statement. Oh, this is who I am. This is how I was raised. And so I said, let me ask you some, when was the last time you phoned somebody and ask them to help you sell your script? And you could practically see or melt? It was like the Wicked Witch of the West? No, no, no. Because when you touch somebody whose identity it is, you've like, slapped him upside the head.

And she said, because that's what her wound was, she was raised to believe you can't ask for help. And I said, let me ask you something. And I said, why not? And she just got very frightened at the prospect. But I said, let me ask you some Why do you want to be a screenwriter? She said, Oh, because I love it. I just love movies. And I love taking that story and turn into that. And I said, If I could promise you, you would have that experience every day of your life. Would you be willing to risk calling people and asking for help? And she said, Sure. Because that's the solution. You've got to get in touch with what your inner conflict, you've got to get in touch with your identity. But the answer is find your lung and live in that space risk going into that space, because that's what heroes do. They want so badly to get that the finally it's worth the danger and worth the risk of of die of letting who they thought they were die and resurrecting something much more.

Alex Ferrari 19:25
So I hope you got a lot out of that. That little snippet of the course by Michael Hauge and Chris volger. I mean, I've been a big fan of Michael and Chris's, since I was in college actually. And I was I jumped to the chance of working with them on this project and really excited to share this information with you but it's a lot of great valuable stuff that you just heard. And the course is also a lot of cool stuff as well. So again, if you want to get access to the course head over to indie film hustle.com forward slash, story blueprint. And guys, that's it for this Episode man I really hope you got something out of that one I got a lot of cool stuff coming up in the coming weeks as you've noticed on the on the blog I've been posting a ton of content and I'm going to be hopefully doing one a day. five five pieces of content a week is my new goal. So to podcast possibly three and as well as cool articles and since this is a screenwriting episode I want to let you guys know if you haven't already known, I created a post that has all of the 2017 oskin contending screenplays available for download. I've got screenplays by MAC Max Landis, Victor Frankenstein, Zootopia, Secret Life of Pets, the Coen Brothers Hail Caesar, the amazing film Captain fantastic Bridget Jones baby, and a ton of other amazing screenplays that you can download. And it is for a limited time the studio's put these up, only for a while. So up until basically the Oscars and after that they get pulled down most of them will get pulled down. So if I were you I would go there and you can legally download them for educational purposes only. At indie film hustle.com forward slash 2017 screenplays, that's indie film hustle comm forward slash 2017 screenplays, it is absolutely free. You can download as much as you like. And as a bonus I also added about 70 other screenplays from the best of 2016 2015 2014 and 2013. So we've got American Hustle there. Dallas Buyers Club, kill your darlings Nebraska Hitchcock, beasts of the Southern wild Desa time ton of different Brooklyn Bridge of Spies, The Big Short Beasts of No Nation. Straight out of Compton, a ton of great articles I mean, she's got a ton of great screenplays that you can download and learn from it's an I would always advise you to read as many screenplays as you can see, you can see how other screenwriters craft their stories. So it's a little bit of a bonus a little bit of a fun thing for you guys, but I think it'll be very, very helpful in your screenwriting endeavors. And guys, if you can't please have an filmmaking podcast.com and leave me a good review on iTunes. It really helps to show out a lot and gets the message of what we're doing here at indie film hustle out to the world. So thank you guys. And as always keep that hustle going, keep that dream alive and I'll talk to you soon.

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage – Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. AudibleGet a Free Filmmaking or Screenwriting Audiobook
  3. Rev.com – $1.25 Closed Captions for Indie Filmmakers – Rev ($10 Off Your First Order)

IFH 099: How to Write a Screenplay FAST with Jeff Bollow

Have you ever wanted to learn how to write a screenplay fast? I know I do. This is why I invited on the show award-winning producer/director, best-selling author, film festival organizer and public speaker, Jeff Bollow.

He is the author of Writing FAST: How to Write Anything with Lightning SpeedJeff Bollow began as an actor at age 12 in his native Los Angeles (credits include Don’t Tell Mom the Babysitter’s Dead and TV’s Columbo) before working nearly every job in production, from the camera to sound to lighting — and including jobs in development, post-production, and distribution.

Jeff has worked on feature films, TV series, commercials, music videos, radio, and corporate productions for companies such as Universal, Castle Rock, Propaganda Films, DNA and the Oxygen Network.

After migrating to New Zealand, where he directed television for TV3 and co-founded the Big Mountain Short Film Festival, he moved to Australia, where he launched Embryo Films. Through his company, Jeff has reviewed over 20,000 project submissions and has edited, assessed and/or mentored over 350 projects. He has script doctored in Singapore, Australia, NZ, and the US; and has conducted over 80 live weekend workshops to over 1200 writers in 9 cities in 5 countries, with a unanimous “recommend” approval rating.

His students have been optioned, produced and won (and placed) in competitions worldwide. He designed FAST Screenplay in 2004 and began officially building it in November 2009. It was finally completed in July 2016, nearly 7 years later. Alongside it, he created the FASTscreenplay YouTube Channel, which now includes over 30 detailed and insightful free videos to encourage writers and screenwriters around the world.

In May 2015, Jeff Bollow delivered his first TED Talk, “Expand Your Imagination… Exponentially” (see video below) at TEDxDocklands in Melbourne, Australia, to prepare for the next phase of the larger plan. Jeff’s aim is to build an independent film studio that inspires creativity worldwide, to help prepare humanity for the dramatic changes our future holds. When he’s not busy helping writers with FAST Screenplay, he is working on a new book, developing a television series, and planning two feature film projects.

I’ve added below Jeff Bollow’s TEDTalk and a series of amazing videos on screenwriting. Enjoy!

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 4:09
So without further ado, here is my interview with Jeff Bollow. Jeff, thank you so much for taking the time to jump on the the podcast. I really appreciate it.

Jeff Bollow 4:36
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Alex Ferrari 4:38
So, Jeff, tell me how you got into the film business in the first place this crazy business.

Jeff Bollow 4:43
I got into the film business well, I was a little kid. And I was dreaming of being a movie star and I decided to get in to pursue acting and I started acting when I was about 12. Okay, so I grew up in LA so it's been around me all my life. I just started pursuing that got some work as a as a kid actor and fell in love with the filmmaking process and started making my own short films and got bitten by the travel bug and moved to Australia. Where I tried to make an independent film with a friend of mine. We spent about seven years trying to make this

Alex Ferrari 5:22
Oh man,

Jeff Bollow 5:23
I've heard that story before. Yeah, I can imagine it. We ended up abandoning it in post production, because by the time we had gotten near to finishing, it had sort of already become a bit obsolete. Some of the references like structural story based references were out of date and that kind of thing. And just we sort of went okay, well, that was our film school, I guess, more or less

Alex Ferrari 5:45
so right? As a long film school. Yeah.

Jeff Bollow 5:49
Painful film school.

Alex Ferrari 5:51
I've had, I've been in post for 20 years, and I seen so many this kind of stories like, but I've never heard seven years, seven years as a record. Now I've heard, I've heard three. And we've been doing this for three or four years. And we're like, oh, man, that must just be

Jeff Bollow 6:04
painful. What we were doing for three or four years and then that sort of, you know, drags on because at a certain point, I mean, the biggest problem but, you know, you run out of money and yeah, keep gotta keep working to pay to generate the money to pay the bills and keep it going. So it just, you know, becomes weekends and evenings. And, you know, it's like a,

Alex Ferrari 6:24
it's like a really bad cocaine habit. You just have to keep working to pay for the drug. But that's not going anywhere yet, but I have to keep paying. So it's like it's a vicious vicious cycle.

Jeff Bollow 6:32
I've never had that habit. So I can't mean either, sir.

Alex Ferrari 6:35
I've only seen so far. I've only seen Scarface so this is my reference

Jeff Bollow 6:39
for movie references. I think that's true.

Alex Ferrari 6:43
Now, when you say you were an actor, you weren't one of my favorite movies growing up. Oh, don't tell mom the babysitter's dead.

Jeff Bollow 6:51
There you go. I said. I said the immortal ridiculous line puppet yourself. Metallica breath?

Alex Ferrari 6:57
Yes. I'm sure a highlight.

Jeff Bollow 7:02
I tried to get them to change that line. And the director is pretty adamant. So all right. Turns out there you go. It's the only it's my it's my one memorable thing from from 510 years of being an actor. So

Alex Ferrari 7:14
if that came out in what in the late 80s, early 90s I

Jeff Bollow 7:18
think well it was it's it came out it we shot it in 1990. It came out in 91 at basically the same time as Terminator two.

Alex Ferrari 7:26
Right so and it was actually a very it was a big hit for what it was it was a well,

Jeff Bollow 7:32
I mean they made it was a relatively low budget that they made it on so it certainly made its money back just barely, I guess at the at the box office. But then it was it was co financed by HBO film so HBO right, just ran it and reran it, ran it on on HBO in the early days. Right? And so it's sort of developed this I think cult following over the years through that largely. And it's bizarre to me that people still remember that film. Oh, no.

Alex Ferrari 8:01
I mean, I was working at a video store in 91. So I'm very well aware of that movie and and of course like everybody else at that time in history. I had a crush on Christina Applegate. So I had a crush on Christina Applegate. And she was still just the Married with Children girl and she just had her and she ran with it with that movie so so I don't mean to geek out guys about that. Don't tell mom the babysitter's that, by the way. If you haven't seen it, and you're a 90s kid, you should definitely definitely watch it. It

Jeff Bollow 8:30
really does capture that era pretty well. It's there's something there's something tangible about it like texturally it's it's it's interesting it's there. I mean, it's not you know, not the greatest movie of all time, but oh god no fun.

Alex Ferrari 8:43
It still it still has it still had some of the ad stank on it. But it has it wasn't. It was in a full 90s movie, but it had a little bit of ad stank slapped on just all those movies in 9091 92 they still had that as

Jeff Bollow 8:55
well. I remember somewhere someone had called it the last 80s teen comedy that was made in the 90s

Alex Ferrari 9:03
No, that makes perfect sense. Actually, that makes perfect. It's like I always said like, you know 1980 that's not really the 80s 80s didn't start till maybe 8182 he still got the stank of the 70s laying around.

Jeff Bollow 9:15
We haven't figured out what the 90s are yet.

Alex Ferrari 9:18
Exactly, exactly. So um, so you move to Australia. I have to ask you, how's the film business down there? Like how is it to make movies and we're on a production company and stuff.

Jeff Bollow 9:29
You know, the film industry in Australia. thing with Australia's it's a much smaller country. So there's only you know, compared to what 300 something million people in the US, there's 25 to 30 million in Australia. So everything gets gets scaled down almost by a factor of 10 kind of a thing simply because there's, you know, the audience, the homegrown audience isn't big enough to sustain, you know, the kinds of budgets that are made in from Hollywood films, that sort of thing. So it almost the industry there almost has an indie feel throughout except that there's this government funding sort of mechanism woven into the DNA of the industry. So so the way screenwriters for example, think about making money in Australia is they think about getting funding from the government $10,000 for a draft sort of thing, you know, so it's no,

Alex Ferrari 10:29
you got to know you're kidding me really,

Jeff Bollow 10:31
it really kind of that way. So it's so everyone is like competing, I guess, for government dollars, which is, you know, disconcerting for someone like me, who comes from LA, and has this sense of, you know, I want to make, you know, commercially viable films that have artistic merit and all that sort of thing. So to, to have to sort of fit into that it's difficult. So what ends up happening is, is, you know, you've got writers who are writing for something other than what someone like me is looking for, generally, right? large, right. So the great challenge, I think, of the Australian film industry is, I mean, the film industry anywhere, I guess, is making a living while you're trying to make your film. But there I think, because it's smaller, the upside of it is also smaller, so it doesn't attract as many people so it's a thinner field in which to play, I guess. I mean, it, they're very serious, they take it very serious, this great quality, particularly in the performing arts there. Which makes for a very robust community, but it's because it's a little small and a little parochial, it's very, it's, it's hard for, it's hard to build something and sustain it, they have distribution troubles, and it's, you know, Australians, the Australian audience often doesn't necessarily embrace Australian film, because it's, you know, first of all the marketing dollars spent by this studios in Hollywood films, you know, all the all the American films are coming down there with these enormous budgets, and just blanketing press coverage. So the little Australian film, even in Australia has a real hard time getting noticed and getting heard and it's in so in some ways, it really reflects the indie arena across the board.

Alex Ferrari 12:35
Gotcha. So in other words, if you made an indie film in Australia, you would have to bring it to Sundance to be big again, if that's true.

Jeff Bollow 12:43
It's it's a little ironic that way. It's definitely true that the films that have had breakout success really actually do succeed at overseas film festivals first,

Alex Ferrari 12:53
right? I remember Crocodile Dundee was the biggest hit in Australia for a long time.

Jeff Bollow 12:59
It was but that's sort of a US Australian. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, that is similar with things like baz lurman film, you know, Australia or, you know, melon rouge or those kinds of like, it's Yes, technically, Australian, but most of the money it's us, the US so that it's a if you're talking about truly Australian homegrown product, it's, you know, the budgets are smaller in there. And they're more niche and it's, it's harder to find that audience. So it's a struggle, it's a it's a real struggle.

Alex Ferrari 13:32
And do you do you work in New Zealand as well? Do you jump in back and forth?

Jeff Bollow 13:36
Yeah, so when I moved down there, I ended up migrating to New Zealand. So I lived in New Zealand for many years and have you know, direct tv there and I've acted in commercials and shows and stuff there. So it's, I but you know, then you're scaling it down to a population of 4 million people,

Alex Ferrari 13:53
right? It's even smaller than Australia. Yeah. So

Jeff Bollow 13:55
one of the one of the big problems and I think this is it, I think it gives me an interesting perspective on all this is, if your market is small, you in order to make something at a larger scale, or something that that resonates with audiences wider, you really have to have almost a global perspective on it, rather than the perspective of the local the challenge of that is that we want to see local stories. And so if you you know, there's that whole idea of stories with universal themes, right, like universal themes are best expressed through specific local you know, right if you if you tell a local story that resonates culturally locally, there's a great film I don't know if you ever saw it out of New Zealand called whale writer no Yeah, of course. It's

Alex Ferrari 14:46
wonderful film

Jeff Bollow 14:47
fantastic film. It's so very specifically New Zealand it's very specifically the Maori culture. It's very specifically it's it's small and indie but it it's themes that we that read All right, so it's the parent, the parent child relationship. And where do I fit in? And in my culture now that the culture isn't quite what it once was, and all those kinds of things we can relate to that. Whether we're in Australia, whether we're in the US, we can relate to that story. But yet it's a very specific locals story. I think that is that's a great takeaway for for filmmakers.

Alex Ferrari 15:26
No, what now what drew you to kind of get into the storytelling aspect and the screenwriting aspect of things?

Jeff Bollow 15:32
Well, when I was in Australia, and I had a good friend of mine down there, and I were wanting to make a film, and I was waiting for him to get his, I don't know if I can use the word shit. I've been waiting for him to get as good as

Alex Ferrari 15:50
stuff here, it's tough to get this stuff together.

Jeff Bollow 15:54
So, you know, I was waiting and waiting and waiting. And I just got very frustrated, I felt at a certain point that I was like, you know, I grew up, I grew up in LA, so to be sitting in New Zealand going, what am I doing, or, you know, at a certain point, it's like, I just need to write something, and we need to go try to make it. So I did that I don't particularly love writing, I'm, I think I'm good at it. But that's not where my passion lies, my passion is in directing and producing. And so. So when we, when we were in that three or four years into production, and post production on that film, that we ultimately abandoned, I started looking for other scripts. And I put out a call, I was back in Australia at this point, put in a call Australia wide, looking for screenplays, and got in probably about 300 scripts that knowing how hard it was for me to write, I committed to reading every word of every small my man, Josh, and I will never do that, again. Because it quickly becomes apparent that there's no if most people don't know what they're doing,

Alex Ferrari 17:04
of course, here here in LA as well. It's a they don't have a monopoly on not knowing what they're doing. It's LA is very much the same way.

Jeff Bollow 17:15
Exactly. But but but when you as you start reading this stuff, you look at it from the perspective of the reader and the perspective of someone going, I want to make a film, let me see if there's something that I can find out there. Because I don't want to write something again, you start to see all the problems and you start to realize that, you know, I can I can get 30 pages in and realize there's no point in reading any further. And then as you read more you go, I really only need to read 10 pages, and I don't need to go any further. And eventually I realized that, you know, I can actually determine whether or not a script is legitimately viable. In about two sentences. Like It's really that easy to determine. And, and it's now cut to 16 years later, and my production company has a submissions forum on the website. And we've had submissions from all around the world, over 25,000 submissions. And literally I have found about 20 projects. And you go Okay, at a certain point. So it's, it's pretty much you can and this is the this is the reason producers don't want to hear the pitch. This is what the reason people don't want to read your screenplay is because 99.9% of them are awful. So it's more not awful, but just unusable. So not viable, not a viable product. They're not viable. And even if they are viable, they're not viable for that producer at that moment, right. So So ultimately, they're kind of right to say I'm not going to read your, your material, which creates that catch 22. So here I am in Australia saying, okay, but I need scripts, I mean, we need we need, what are we going to make, I don't want to sit down. And so I have this ambition to start an independent film studio that would make between three and six films a year, this was my goal back 1617 years ago as well. And the if you've seen my TED Talk, that's those are the kinds of films that I want to make, right? So I had this sort of big vision for changing the future and not changing the future, but preparing people for what's to come. I want to make movies that inspire us for what I believe to be a radically different future that's on its way to us.

Alex Ferrari 19:43
So okay, so can you talk a little bit because I loved your TED Talks. One of the reasons why I reached out to you I absolutely love your tech talk. Can you talk a little bit of fuchsia, can you share a few of the points in your talk to the audience? Well,

Jeff Bollow 19:55
so the basic idea is that there's this notion of exponential change, it's really hard for people to wrap our brains around what exponential change means. But the simplest way I think to grasp it is, is technology increases exponentially. So, so if you have a computer and you use that computer to build a better, faster computer, it's going to double the output of it, right? So but then that new computer, building, a new computer will double the output again. So rather than going step one to step two, to step three, to step forward to Step five, you go, step one to step two, to step four, because you've doubled to step eight,

Alex Ferrari 20:42
because you're double attached, and go on and on and on. Exactly.

Jeff Bollow 20:45
And but this is the nature of progress. This is the nature of change. And I believe that the future is going to look radically different to today, by essence by by the fact that everything is changing on this exponential scale. So we're early in the in the exponential curve, which is why doesn't seem all that groundbreaking. But if you actually go back and look at don't tell mom the babysitter's dead, like many things about society are quite the same. But it's a dramatically different world that we live in. Oh, Jesus. Yeah. And it's going to get extremely dramatically different from here. As you know, things like, Well, look,

Alex Ferrari 21:30
I'll just use a perfect example. I since I live in LA, I just discovered maybe I'm old, but I just discovered Amazon now. Okay, and I don't know if you know about Amazon now. Which one is that? Amazon now is you log onto Amazon, you can you can just place an order, and it's at your doorstep in two hours, right? Yes. Yeah, that's insane. Like, that's the first and literally the first time I did it. I was like, I'm going to see if this is real. I really was I honestly I'll order this Sure. Sure. I'll give you a tip. No problem. And I really thought it was a scam, like, Nah, it's just it's never gonna and then an hour later, I hear knock on the door. I'm like, Wow, really? I'm like, you've got to be kidding

Jeff Bollow 22:14
me. So but that's, that's delivery distribution, right? But take it another step further. What about 3d printing? What about when you can go on to Amazon? And you say, I want this pair of pants and your 3d printer prints the pants for you? Or take it another step and say, I'm I'm hungry right now. And the 3d printer prints a beautiful, healthy organic meal for you Star Trek style Star Trek style, right? Yeah, absolutely. And it you know, what was one science fiction becomes imagination to the next generation of scientists who then turn it into reality. So there's no, when we look at science fiction, we have to, we have to realize someone's getting inspired by that sci fi. And this, if somebody sits and figures out how to make this happen, this may be our future. So

Alex Ferrari 23:02
it was just like what happened with banks in the future to the bank that came out in the nine I think 1990 and a lot of a lot of the stuff that they predicted came true. A lot of it didn't but you know, sure there is there is a hoverboard you know, it's it's not like everyday stuff by Mattel.

Jeff Bollow 23:19
That's the one that blows up though.

Alex Ferrari 23:20
No, not that hoverboard. There's an actual hoverboard that uses the same technology well, levitation

Jeff Bollow 23:24
technology or trains that work on maglev. So it's I mean, but i think i think i think the thing is that when the way we live our lives, because we're all sort of, you know, beholden to paying our bills and whatever. I mean, we live our lives today, we imagine that the future will look like today, but a little more gadgety and a little faster, right. But, but we're not paying attention to the fact that those changes are, are approaching how fast they're get here is anyone's guess. But I think they're approaching faster than we imagined. So, you know, to me, I see the future as a as a very, very different place than than what we exist, what exists today in 2016.

Alex Ferrari 24:09
And that's basically the essence of the TED Talk, like to prepare yourself for what's coming.

Jeff Bollow 24:14
Well, and so the TED and so the TED talk then takes that idea and says, you know, that this launched me into this launch me into this desire to make this film studio beak in part because well, no, so I wanted to go into I wanted to create movies and television entertainment about these ideas, but through the process of teaching, through the process of saying, Okay, well people have great ideas. I need great screenplays. How do we get them from here to here? And I sat down and a basically reverse engineer the process, and people don't understand this concept very well because a lot of people think fast screenplays a screenwriting course. It's not, it's at the end of the day, whatever technique you use, whether you use the three act structure or you know, whatever 10 other formulas are out there, everyone goes through the same process, the process is start with the idea, turn it into a story, get it on the page, shape it, reshape until it's solid, make it a compelling read for the reader, and then connect it with the people that you're trying to reach. Right. So that process is the same, that's what I basically did. But through the act of reverse engineering, that process, I came to see and appreciate and realize how creativity works, and how imagination works, and how we harness imagination and creativity, and turn it into something that satisfies our own goals. But and so as you start to look at this on a, I guess, meta level, you start to realize that will really every person on this planet, goes through that same process during creativity, right, we all witness life through a different vantage point, right, you're seeing whatever you're seeing in this moment, wherever you are. And anyone who's listening to this is seeing something completely different to what you're saying completely different to what I'm seeing, and our backgrounds are all completely different as well. So we interpret it differently. So in I guess, this analogy, this metaphor that I came up with is that the earth is like a giant brain. And we're like individual neurons. And so when we interact with each other, we're, we're sparking that other neuron, right? Where when I say something to you, that resonates with you, you go, oh, wow, that's really cool. And then you incorporate it into your thinking. And then that sort of informs where you go from there. Similarly, when you say something to me, or a list of on your podcast, and I go, oh my god, that's so amazing, or this person's fantastic. So writing, creativity, filmmaking, storytelling, is that, right? So it's, it's, when you're trying to tell a story, when you're trying to write a script, when you're trying to make a movie, you have an idea in your head that you're trying to share with other people with an audience with the world, right? You want you want the most people possible to hear your idea and to understand it and to connect with you and and to inspire them. So it's all kind of the same thing.

Alex Ferrari 27:43
So then, basically, so so let's back up for a second you have you have a system called fast screenplay. Basically, it's a it's a system, correct? Because we kind of went into it first before explaining what fast screenplay was. So can you can you break down the seven parts? Or did you already the seven part system of fast screenplay and then from what I'm getting, just so I understand, it's not a like how to write a screenplay. It's a different kind of process to get the idea to the final end, end point. Is that kind of what it is, we'll

Jeff Bollow 28:14
know it's both Okay, so Okay, so let me let me back up a second. So fast screenplay, fast is an acronym. So it's all capital letters, right? Focus is the F. A is for apply. S is for strengthen, and T is for tweak. So what I realized when I sat down to sort of reverse engineer this process is that writing is a, there are four phases to writing. The first is to focus your ideas, where you basically take all the random ideas that you have, and you focus them into a specific story, right? one you choose, you choose and shape your your story. Now once you have your story, you have to get that onto the page, you have to write it, which I call the apply phase, you're applying that story plan that you created. Right, so there's your first draft, once you have your first draft, you have to rewrite you have to strengthen it to make it in sync with your intentions. So make it the best story that it can be. Once you've got it being to be the best story. Then you tweak the words you polish it, you refine it so that the readers experience when they read your script is there it's a page turner, it's compelling. They want to go through this experience. So focus, apply strengthen tweak is the writing process. So about what 10 years ago now I wrote a book called writing fast how to write anything with lightning speed, which you can get on Amazon. The Kindle version is really cheap. Anyway, so but that's the that's the four part writing process. Now, what I also realized was that if a writer goes out and starts just writing scripts, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're writing something that a producer like me could use, right? So the only way that they're going to write something that I can say yes to is if they write something that is aligned with my needs, right? So that doesn't necessarily mean they have to write for me, maybe they write something that's so amazing, I want to make that film. One way or another, though, we have to be aligned in order for us to sit for me to say yes, and for us to move forward and make the film. So what I realized was, you could actually add a phase before this writing process, which I call the setup phase, which prepares you for the process and sort of pre aligns your imagination with the needs of the producer. So that when you start the process of writing, you're your, your brain is always serving up material to you that is in sync with producers needs, right, so you're not going off away on a tangent, but it's still your creativity, it's still whatever it is you want to write. Right. So then you go through that process. Once you're done, you're going to need to get notes and feedback, you're going to need to see how your work is interpreted and responded to by other people. So we have what I call the alignment phase. And that's basically you're sending your workout for notes and feedback. And how do you interpret notes and feedback? So many writers and I've given notes over so many years now that writers drive me crazy, because they take notes personally. Yep, they say, Hi. How dare you not appreciate and respect the brilliance of what I wrote, and you're like, Okay, I'm giving you a note telling you what the reaction to your work is. And rather than taking that and adapting your work, so that it serves your goals, you're going to reject the note out of hand and take it like I'm like, I'm killed your baby, right? So you go ego, it and egos ego really gets in your way. And at that stage of it, because at the end of the day, we all write crap, I've written so much crap, it's not even funny, right? arguably, maybe the things I'm talking about right now. But that's for someone else to decide. But at the end of the day, all the goal is not good or bad, the goal is creating something that is effective at what you're trying to get across. So the alignment phase helps you see what other people are getting, and then adapt what you what you've created, so that they get what you want. What you want them to get, also teaches you the skill of adapting your work to the needs of a producer, if you want to go that road. Right? So then the final phase is the payoff phase, which is where now that you have this script now that has been through this process now that it's aligned with. So you know, it's, you know, they like it, you know, it's what they want, how do you then connect with the producer? And how do you identify what produces and how do you then connect with them? So it the whole system of fast screenplay, the seven phases, set up focus, apply, strengthen, tweak alignment? payoff, it's a, it's huge, of course, no, it's

Alex Ferrari 33:10
absolutely it's so

Jeff Bollow 33:11
it probably takes about a year to learn the process. But I also have then subsequently distilled each of those steps, so that once you get the whole process, you can then condense it, and you can move through it and gradually make the process intuitive, which is what leads to mastery. So it's sort of this thing that looks daunting at the start, but it's really not because most writers think they know all this stuff. And they really just don't, I mean, even intermediate, even advanced riders, to be honest with you, there are things throughout the system that they just barely go, I never even thought of that before. Or this fills in a gap of something that I didn't know before. So the point my point in creating the system wasn't to teach screenwriting, I have no interest in becoming some screenwriting guru. This is not like I'm at the end of this road, I don't want I don't want this to be my life from here. I created this because if you're in Australia, and you can't find scripts, and you don't have discretionary funds to pay writers to just develop stuff, which may or may not end up getting produced, because that's wasted money. And when every dollar counts, you can't spend that money. I basically needed an in house script development system like a studio might have, but out of house, right? Like I needed something that anyone could go start here, go through this deliver something that we could make. So the idea was hopefully through this process, we will end up getting scripts and stories, some of which will be aligned with what we want to make some of which writers will go off and find other producers. But then in theory will gradually as more people discover it, be able to make Three to six films a year, and then hopefully change the world.

Alex Ferrari 35:04
So based on basically what you created fast screenplay was a selfish reason you just want better screenplays.

Jeff Bollow 35:09
That's pretty much. I want Well, I want I want better screenplays that I don't want to have to write them myself.

Alex Ferrari 35:15
Exactly. So then since since you've already said you've read tons of scripts 1000s of probably your lifetime, what are the most common mistakes? You see with first time screenwriters?

Jeff Bollow 35:27
I mean, seriously, the the, it's across the board, you you have problems of ideas, selection, there's like people will have an idea. And the kernel of the idea is good, but then they've turned it into a story that just doesn't really make any sense or is not the best expression. Look, think about the reasons why you you watch a movie and you don't like the movie? I mean, how many movies do you watch for you go, that was awesome. Like That was fantastic. Like, it's actually a few.

Alex Ferrari 35:59
I just actually I just actually watched last night for the first time, the Grand Budapest Hotel. I love that movie. And a was but I just loved it. Like my wife and I sat there and go, it's so unique. It's such a well told story. It's so beautiful to look at. It's just gorgeous film. And that's like, it's rare. And it's rare to actually hear yourself say, that was a good movie. And then of course, I saw spotlight and The Big Short and a bunch of the Oscar nominated films as well this year, but just grab Buddha tests like oh, we just have never got around to it was like my god, that was really a good film.

Jeff Bollow 36:32
Well, and so if but if you think about then all the other films that you've seen that you sort of go, Well, it was good or hands okay. Or or you walk away going, geez, that was terrible. Like, the The reasons are, there are many different reasons for that. But now think about this as screenplays where you're going to have the same reaction, you know, you're not going to like every screenplay that you read, even if a screenplay might be good. I mean, there are some awards contenders this year that it's not my thing.

Alex Ferrari 36:59
Right? Right. Of course, of course, I'm

Jeff Bollow 37:01
not into it. So. So we have that we have you have writers don't grasp the essence of the character transformation. I mean, stories are about a character, or a situation or something changing. So what changes it if that change happens too fast or too slow, or it doesn't? It doesn't it's not plausible, or it's just not handled very well. All that can be problems, you have problems of dialogue, you have problems of structure, structure, grammar, grammar, but but structure, I want to be clear, just because it's not 3x structure does not mean it has problems of structure. I think there's over reliance on a three act structure, I've got a video series that I'm working on at the moment, that'll should be up end of February or so on the YouTube channel. But that, that addresses why our reliance on the three act structure is maybe a little little too extreme, right? That's one story form. But at the end of the day, a film structure has to be right for it. It has to be right for what you're trying to say and how you're trying to set and the point and purpose that you're trying to get across.

Alex Ferrari 38:10
Well, you know, like watching Pulp Fiction in a different structure is like if you did a proper three act structure in chronological order, that movie doesn't have the same thing.

Jeff Bollow 38:20
Absolutely, yeah, that's absolutely true. So So there but so when I say that, that most films have structural problems, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's that they're not adhering to three actors. So it's, it's but but yes, structure is a huge problem for for a lot of writers and, and, you know, also just writing style is a big thing people don't necessarily appreciate but if you're reading lots of scripts, there's something to be said for like a really great writing style, like something that just pops off the page and, and implies more than it says, you know, there's their screenwriting requires an economy of words that writers often don't fully appreciate where in some ways you want to use three words instead of 10. But you want those three words to say more than the 10 would have. Right? So it's it there's a lot in the in the whitespace there's a lot in the in the there's a lot that's implied that should be implied in the way a great screenplay reads and if writers can really learn to play with that it'll make their it'll make their scripts jump out a lot better

Alex Ferrari 39:29
I know there's some some screenwriters that when you read because I've read so many bad screenplays in my life MINE MINE included I'm in the same boat MINE MINE included without question

Jeff Bollow 39:40
my earlier efforts are like

Alex Ferrari 39:42
oh move some rough stuff. But but then you read Shane Black's old stuff like you know Lethal Weapon and last me

Jeff Bollow 39:51
a bit heavy but

Alex Ferrari 39:52
yeah, it's heavy, you know, obviously for the time period, but still the stuff you could see that voice is so clear Walter Hill back in the day. melius you know who was an insane writer and of course Tarantino and million other right? But when you start reading those guys, they all have very, very unique voices. And they and it pops right off the page like you read a Shane Black script, it's Shane Black, you read it. Obviously Tarantino probably has the loudest of all of those voices.

Jeff Bollow 40:17
Yeah. There's some there's a danger though also with that, because often the scripts that you find online are some of the most beloved scripts that you find online are written by writer directors. And right if you're writing a screenplay on spec, if you're, if you're not going to make your own film, then you have to be careful, because there are certain things that writer directors will do, they'll include shots, or they'll include certain language that they can get away with, because they're describing how they're going to film it. But as the as the, as the writer, submitting your project, trying to get a story made, you don't want to include that stuff. Because you really want the creative team that is going to ultimately say yes, and make your film, you want them to infuse their own creative vision into it. And so if you steer it too much from a, you know, a control standpoint, then it's a turn off to the reader. And, you know, I can't tell you how many times you read a script, it's like, okay, you think you're directing this?

Alex Ferrari 41:24
Right and that yeah,

Jeff Bollow 41:26
this isn't even written well enough. Like let alone directed. Well, no, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 41:30
Yeah, I was told many years ago, you know, by many different people. Like don't put direction in a script. Unless you're directing if you're directing it, do what you want. But generally don't put like close up here. Dolly in here. Like don't do that. Because exactly for that reason, like yeah, obviously a Tarantino movie, we'll have that because he's going to direct it. But like, if you read you know, Shane Black's last the last Boy Scout, which was his he wasn't a director back then. Or lethal weapon. He wasn't a director back then those scripts just I mean, they are 80s. And they are, they are what they are. But they're so well put together. I mean, and I still put up lethal weapon is one of the best action films. Oh, I agree. And Die Hard. I mean, Jesus, I mean,

Jeff Bollow 42:14
absolutely. But and they stand the test of time because the stories are so rich, the characters are so well written and the and the pacing and the tension and the

Alex Ferrari 42:23
masterful, it's masterful to watch, like, you know, considering like watching an action movie today. And then watching Lethal Weapon One, two predator, the original predator or diehard, those 80s action movies that are just like you could pop them in right now. And they do their job, they will do their job. So well. I mean, even Star Wars for that matter, the original Star Wars. I mean, that was in the 70s. There's not many movies that were done in the 70s that hold today, like you could put Star Wars in right now. I'll put it on for my six year old. And

Jeff Bollow 42:56
Hang on, though part of that is is because the setting isn't the 70s

Alex Ferrari 43:00
correct. But the storytelling is universal forever. Yeah, obviously. Yeah. Well, but like the Godfather, you could put the Godfather on. And it's still holds very much, though the pacing is a little different than what people are used to today, especially now with the new seven hour version being released on HBO, a godfather one and two, which I'm really interested in, I'm not sure if I had the time to watch that.

Jeff Bollow 43:21
That's the big question then, like, who has the time to watch it who's gonna sit down and watch seven hours of the Godfather? I think one of the frustrating things for me at the moment, though, is that, you know, we have we are technologically capable of making extraordinary stuff today. And, and one of the biggest, I think, let downs his story in script development, because because people, people are so enamored of the production process and the post breckland Cg and editing, all this stuff, the stuff that the stuff that all you really need are the tools and you can start tinkering. When it comes to writing, we all have the tools to start tinkering is a little harder because it's there's no defined shape to what it's supposed to look like. And you know, you can you can write in anything you could write on the back of a napkin at the end of the day, right? It's not, you know, the, what you ride on how you ride is not the most important thing. What's important is taking that idea, turning it into a compelling story. And there's this almost pervasive attitude of, well, I'm just going to bang out a script. You know, I'm just going to spend two weeks or three weeks knocking out my screenplay, and I'm ready to go, alright, and it's like you wouldn't expect I remember doing a workshop, a live workshop in Melbourne, in Australia once and this woman had attended and she was a novelist. And she made these epic fantasy novels like each novel would have 800 pages, multiple trilogies on the bookshelf at the local bookstore. And she was she had come to do my screenwriting workshop because she's said, in between my big 800 page novels, I usually have a month or two off, and I'll I thought I'd bang out a script between them.

Alex Ferrari 45:09
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Jeff Bollow 45:19
Oh, okay. So. So I met up with her like six months later and said, how's it all going? She said, I was amazed to discover that it's as much work to write a screenplay as it is to write an 800 page novel. If I could, if I could just let that point sink in the minds of every writer, I encounter, oh, my God, life would be so much better. Because if you if you if you realize that that's the amount of effort and skill and nuance that you have to use, I think you would treat the whole thing much more seriously. And if you treat it more seriously, you're you're more likely to create better quality. I mean, I don't know how old you are. But the you know what I worry about?

Alex Ferrari 46:09
What we're about the same vintage, I think, probably so you're a little younger? Probably. I'm not sure.

Jeff Bollow 46:15
Okay, so we so what you know, but when we were young, we probably wrote stuff, we probably tried to make stuff, you look back at it now. And it was terrible. Like new writers don't have the benefit of that. So they assume that what they're creating is great. Even though like when I create something, if I write today, I'm assuming it's not good enough, you know, I'm going into it with the assumption that I'm seeing those, those early drafts of stuff that I wrote 20 years ago. So

Alex Ferrari 46:45
you know, what was interesting with your dad, I'm gonna cut you off. But what's interesting with what you're saying is, it's so so true, because when you're, when I started writing at the beginning, or creating things at the beginning of my career, I just assumed that they were awesome, right? It just didn't only

Jeff Bollow 47:02
not I mean, that's kind of where the inspiration comes from. So you were right, hit berate yourself, and assume it's awful. And we're gonna keep going, though,

Alex Ferrari 47:10
but there's a sense of, there's a sense of being humbling as life as life beats you down in the business beats you down as you go through it. And this and this is at every level, I feel that a certain time like now I sit down to create something, I don't assume all of a sudden, it's awesome, I beat it up a lot more I look at it more I analyze it more to see to see if it's like I put it to the test to see if it holds up, where at the first like, you would just put something out there and you're like, Oh look, and then the world will beat it up for you, as well. And they'll do a great job by the way, they do a fantastic job doing

Jeff Bollow 47:48
that. But you know, I really think it's also in how you interpret things. So if you if if when you say the world beats you down or or you get beat up for your story, on some level, all all that the world is really doing and saying to you is that you're out of alignment, right? You're not what you think you're trying to achieve. You haven't presented in a way that is achievable yet and if you if you I think if in general, we not you specifically but we all start to look at the negatives at the rejections at the nose at the at the criticisms, if we look at that, through that filter of Well, okay, so the thing that I put out there didn't resonate, why? I think it will help us improve it helps us It helps us adapt, refine, because ultimately success is available to absolutely anyone who wants it. Yep, really is because all that you have to do is not give up. That's it. I like to say there's only two outcomes for screenwriters. Either you're going to see your movie gonna, you're gonna see your movie made your script made into a movie, or you're going to quit. That's it, there's no other option. No, someone says no, then you adapt, you refine, you keep persisting until you get made his movie.

Alex Ferrari 49:09
You know, I always use I've used this example on the show before but the matrix, I heard the story of the matrix on a documentary I was watching probably with, like a year ago or something. And what I found out was that the script was you know, so obviously revolutionary, and the story was so out there that people don't really understand it. It took so long to get it made. It took about four to five years. Yeah, to get made. And in that time, they shot bound that the warshawsky brothers at the time were shot bound to kind of prove that the contractor but during that five year period, they were beating the hell out of the script. Yeah, they rewriting it and rewriting it and so by the time they finally got to make it, that was the tightest script in the world, they they they beat that thing up so much. So by the time it got released into the world, the world couldn't do any more beating it Because it couldn't tear it down, they've made something so structurally sound, that there's it. There's nothing you can do to tear it down. It was just it was just it's like Shawshank Redemption you watch shank redemption you just go. There's I can't. I can't say though anytime I feel bad I do look up bad review Shawshank. And there are there are some By the way, and I love reading them because it just like you create it.

Jeff Bollow 50:24
This is an interesting point because ultimately, I used to use exactly that as an example in my live workshops, I would say, you know, ultimately, there will always be people who hate what you do. There will always be people who try to knock you down or not even maliciously, maybe they just genuinely don't like it. That's okay. I mean, if you if you go back to that brain metaphor analogy, you know, not everything that you put out into the world is going to electrify all the other neurons in the system right now, it's only All that matters is is that it lands with where you're trying to land it, you know,

Alex Ferrari 51:05
exactly, exactly. Now, can you can you talk a little bit about this free course that you were they've been working on for a year, the fast story development, how to create the detail.

Jeff Bollow 51:12
Yeah, so. So it's a it's a, it's a four part, YouTube video series. So if you haven't been to my YouTube channel, check it out. There's a lot of me talking. But it's youtube.com slash fast screenplay. And there are, what 30 videos or something like that there at the moment. And this one is a four part series. So one of my biggest challenges is helping people really understand what fast screenplay is all about. So I wanted to do something that was both simultaneously really quality information people could use and run with immediately. But also something that through through explaining that helps you really understand what what fast then is all about. So it's a it's a four part series. That's called fast story development, how to create detailed, original stories in one hour. And so it's got four parts. And the first part is the hidden story dynamic. So as I'm reverse engineering, this process, I'm looking at the three act structure, why does it work when it works, why doesn't it work when it doesn't work. And I realized that there's this sort of hidden story dynamic underneath it all sort of what I call the building block of all storytelling, but that building block then also applies to, you know, infinitely beyond just storytelling, it's almost like the building block of anything that we choose to do, which means you can actually apply it to story development as well. So in part two, it's called How To Grow stories organically, where you basically start with an idea, and you more or less, just grow it organically into a compelling screen story. So I walked you through that. Now once you've walked you through that, then Part Three is how you can do that entire process in one hour. So I walk you through that. And then part four is why you'd even want to do this why speed actually turns out to be the key to writing success. So each each one's like about 10 minutes a little less than 10 minutes long. And and they're they're full of animation and all this stuff, which is what has been taking so long, firstly nailing it down. So it's so you know, the pacing, and all, all the normal stuff, make sure that it's effective and entertaining, but also that it is legitimately helpful. I think all four episodes are just packed with stuff that people will be able to use immediately whether they continue on to fast screenplay or whether they go off and do their own thing. It's my goal. My goal has never been to be a screenwriting teacher. So ultimately, if you don't join me, that's not the end of the day for me, like I fast is fast is not about making a profit. All proceeds that come into fast get reinvested into fast to make it bigger and faster and to make it you know, expanded

Alex Ferrari 54:22
exponentially as you said, yeah.

Jeff Bollow 54:25
Yeah. So it's, I mean, it's, you know, I want to make my money off of the movies that I make eventually, right? So I'm not, I don't I don't take, I don't take a salary from fast or any of that stuff that I really want people to do fast, because it's going to help them get where they want to go fast. And yeah, well, yeah. Ultimately, fast has multiple meanings. There's the idea of writing it fast. But really, there's no point in writing something fast if it's crap, right? So the only fast screenplay actually refers to the speed at which the screenplay reads. So when I as a as a producer, when I, if I'm, if I'm looking at a screenplay to evaluate it, if it's a slow read, there's no way it's going to be bought. It's just not going to happen. Right? Like, if it's a fast read, that means it's a page turner. That means it's grabbed me, it's pulled me in. I'm there, I want to see what happens next. So a fast screenplay is a screenplay that reads fast. It's a screenplay that people want to find out what happens next for, that's what everyone wants to write. That's what you should want to write. Now, writing that fast requires mastering a whole lot of skills and nuances and details, character structure, theme, setting all that stuff, right. So to master it, it's gonna take a little bit of time. So you go through the fast screenplay system, which is the acronym which is the system and the end the process itself.

Alex Ferrari 56:04
Well, we come to the part of the show that I asked the same three questions to all of my, all of my guests. So these are the toughest questions you'll ever have. So be yourself.

Jeff Bollow 56:13
I didn't. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't listen to other ones to prepare. So this is new to me.

Alex Ferrari 56:18
Okay. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn in life or in the film business? But lesson that took me the longest to learn? That's a good question. Thank you.

Jeff Bollow 56:37
Do you often have people stumped looking at the

Alex Ferrari 56:40
wall for a second buy? It comes to them?

Jeff Bollow 56:43
I think I think that probably is that I'm enough.

Alex Ferrari 56:48
Yeah, that's that's a that's an answer. I've heard from other Yes, as well.

Jeff Bollow 56:53
Yeah. You know, look, it's funny because MMA, you know, all along and I often attributed to growing up trying to be an actor in LA. He really I mean,

Alex Ferrari 57:02
it was an actor. It was an actor who said that, by the way.

Jeff Bollow 57:05
It's it doesn't surprise me as a kid I went to probably without exaggeration, 1000 auditions, and I probably booked about 50 parts. And that's a lot of rejection. Right? I'm too. I'm too thin. I'm too fat. I'm too tall. I'm too short. I'm too good looking. I'm not I'm ugly. I'm all All right. So on some level I always attributed to, to that, that I, I hadn't felt like it was okay to express my creative core. And so through teaching writing, I think it was only through teaching right? I never wanted to be a writing teacher that was I'd never would have imagined back then that that's what I that's what I would be doing today. But in many ways through doing that it's helped me realize and appreciate now because it because I see the insecurities in every single person, every writer, you can see the insecurities. And it's like, No, just trust it. Trust this trust you and you trust. I always tell people if you can trust me, you can trust my system that will turn into a trust for yourself. And so in some ways, I'm trying to convey that very lesson to everyone that I teach.

Alex Ferrari 58:25
Good answer, sir. What is your top three films of all time? See, that's always a killer. Yeah, it could be just a bunch of lists that get to come to mind today.

Jeff Bollow 58:39
Well, I think it's hard to go past Shawshank Redemption just because it's such a it's just such a flawless film, right? It's a beautiful piece of filmmaking. I don't want to here's the thing. I don't know that I could say of all time, because I find value in even crappy films.

Alex Ferrari 58:57
Of course I do, too. Like there's some there's some like ad schlock that I'll watch and you know, I love watching commando, like commando is awesome. Yeah. But it's horrendous film. It's horribly structured. There's cardboard cutouts that are being blown up as soldiers. I mean, it's a horrible, horrible, horrible film. But I love it. So yes, I completely. So just three favorite films that really quickly.

Jeff Bollow 59:21
Well, I'll tell you one that I saw recently, I don't know if I would call it as as an all time favorite, but I loved it. It's a tiny little indie film called coherence. Okay, if you're if you're since you're an indie film podcast, I think your listeners would probably love this film. It's made on a tiny budget. I don't even know what in like micro budget, and it's just such a cool idea. And it's really well executed. And it shows you what can be done and it's also sci fi in a cool sort of way that I like I don't wanna say too much about it, because it actually gives away sort of the core premise of it. But that have you seen a movie called primer? Yeah. Of course okay so it's it's not like primer in that sense but it's that low budget indie thing where they've done something really really cool

Alex Ferrari 1:00:08
oh very cool okay

Jeff Bollow 1:00:11
yeah I mean I'm a huge sort of time travel and sci fi not I love those kinds of stories so

Alex Ferrari 1:00:17
Back to the Future obviously

Jeff Bollow 1:00:21
there's another flawless film it there are some films they're literally they are flawless you can't you can't pick it up nothing you would change even down to you know which on the actor's face like it's just flawless so

yeah

Alex Ferrari 1:00:38
those are three those are three right there yeah I want to be

Jeff Bollow 1:00:42
one but I have a I have a very wide variety of I like obscure films and for you know what Another one is great one is cinema parody so no cinema

Alex Ferrari 1:00:50
paradisio yeah if any film any film lover any any movie love Yeah,

Jeff Bollow 1:00:55
well maybe that's it. Yeah, you just

Alex Ferrari 1:00:57
gotta go over Yeah, as a film lover you just watch that music so Oh,

Jeff Bollow 1:01:01
good. One is living in oblivion. Oh, I love living in Oblivion, so we're gonna get down to that. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:05
but if you're a filmmaker everyone out there you must look for a movie called living in oblivion. I'll put it in the show notes. Oh

Jeff Bollow 1:01:11
boy. It is it is Steve Buscemi earliest vision

Alex Ferrari 1:01:15
early Steve Buscemi. It's a movie about making movies. And when I hear

Jeff Bollow 1:01:19
Dinklage has the greatest part in the history of time

Alex Ferrari 1:01:24
and and my favorite part of that one of my favorite parts is when the grip pulls out the screenplay and gives it to the producer. Exactly. I've been working on and I'm wanting to tell you all that oh, my God, but he carries the screenplay in his back pocket that's what I remember was so vividly is like he's just like busted out and give it to state in Maine is another great one. Oh state Maine is fantastic state and main is another weight movie making movie movie about moviemaking is absolutely brilliant. Who was Mamet? Right That was Mamet wasn't Mamet Philip Seymour Hoffman. Actor so brilliant. Wonderful. And then can you name one under really underrated film?

Jeff Bollow 1:02:05
We've probably probably did there a few you know what I'm gonna go on record as saying Star Wars The Force Awakens

Alex Ferrari 1:02:15
very, very underrated film is it and I don't know spoilers

Jeff Bollow 1:02:18
but go ahead. That movie has gotten a lot of a lot of flack from especially from industry people are people who are saying that it's just a rip off of a new hope and you know that it's not I here's the thing about that movie I

Alex Ferrari 1:02:32
love that you've called this the most underrated

Jeff Bollow 1:02:35
you're going to you are well only only because there I know there's a lot of haters about that film. But you're going to look at this film after the next to come out and see brilliance in The Force Awakens that you can't see right now because I mean one of my one of the whole sort of principles upon which everything I do is built is the notion of setup and payoff. I believe that that is sort of the core of it all right, so everything is either set up or pay off. And that movie is set up set up set up set up and it's fantastic it's just gonna pay off in May I'm so I've always been a Star Wars fan. I didn't like the prequels but I I am not a geek fan. I'm just I'm just appreciative fan. That is like I'm just so excited about what they've done with that and where they're going with the whole thing and I think it gets derided from especially from a screenwriting standpoint because everyone's only looking at the similarities to a new hope and they're not they're not appreciating why those similarities are likely to be there

Alex Ferrari 1:03:44
yeah it's I I am I am actually at it's a very well documented Star Wars full blown geek

Jeff Bollow 1:03:52
okay you know as I do things like the ring theory and all that

Alex Ferrari 1:03:57
no I'm not that guy I don't go but I but I carry Yoda close to me on all times he's always at all times. So I think more geek than me is much more I have a life size Yoda here in my office it's it's I've had him for years cool yeah it's I've had it Yeah, I could I don't want to go down to geek road because I could I could go hard really really quickly but the thing is I saw the movie and I I loved it and I'm a big fan of it and I can't wait to go see it again. But I just enjoyed it and I enjoyed the trip and the whole thing that JJ did with it and he did it so nicely and so tightly and there is a lot of haters out there but I don't I don't I don't personally care and I know there's a lot of but there's more lovers than haters because it's made to build no

Jeff Bollow 1:04:44
I mean there are and that movie will be just fine whether it's got me as it's different. Exactly. But but just but only because the the sort of circle that I've been playing in for a while is the screenwriting and screenwriting education stamp channel. That's right. Thing within that world it's it's it gets consistently bashed. And I think it's just so unfair because it's it's far more remarkable than it appears to be on the surface. It's also just a great ride. You know what I mean? Oh yeah, it's just that's icing on the cake. It's but underlying that is is is quite a stunning achievement in my opinion and

Alex Ferrari 1:05:22
that he's created probably one of the best here female hero heroes in the last heroine in the last 20 years if not longer. Yeah. Because she's amazing Ray's character that character is absolutely remarkable.

Jeff Bollow 1:05:36
Well, I think there will be some I think there'll be some cool reveals Yeah, in which in future episodes, we

Alex Ferrari 1:05:42
won't we won't, we won't go down too far. But again, going the same route where you were talking about the screenwriters kind of, you know, snub their nose at it. They also snub their nose at Titanic and they also snub the rows at avatar. And as avatar is just ferngully it's just dances with no,

Jeff Bollow 1:05:58
but so you know, that actually makes brings up a really interesting point because I'm also a fan of avatar. I think they're mistaking the mythological structure for copycatting, right right so that in or if you so in the hands of a hack, right or a truly hack writer, you he would copy ferngully and it would not have the same resonance as avatar does. But what Cameron has done even cameras an exceptional film I mean not box off

Alex Ferrari 1:06:35
success is amazing.

Jeff Bollow 1:06:37
He is he actually is really good at what he does. Yes. And he's another one that gets derided a lot which is by the way this doesn't I'm not trying to imply that I'm only about the blockbuster he kinda first I love the I love obscure cinema,

Alex Ferrari 1:06:53
living in Oblivion, you know, those? I mean, they're small movies.

Jeff Bollow 1:06:57
But I think you have to respect I always judge something based on what is it that they were trying to achieve? And did they achieve it effectively. So by that, by that you if you look at a screenplay or you look at store a story through that filter, a lot of these things that look to be simplistic or plagiaristic or copycat are actually not there. They're using the mythological structure in a completely original way. And so you know, avatar is I would if you had done this podcast back then it probably was an avatar is the most underrated so I think it's important for writers and filmmakers in general to understand the big mythological structures to understand most people don't understand the three act structure they understand where the things happen, but they don't understand why the things happen where they happen. So that's what leads to hack ism that's what leads to people copying something effectively right but if you understand what the why behind all of it you can use the the structures to your own advantage or you can play around with the structures and come up with something new and different in a way that is also effective.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:16
Jeff I won't take up any more of your time this is we've got we've geeked out a little bit too much hopefully, I hope the audience didn't mind but but there's some good there's some good knowledge in that geek out as well so that hopefully something hopefully somebody learned something today. So Oh, so where can people find you sir?

Jeff Bollow 1:08:35
The probably the easiest place is to go to fast screenplay.com or, or the YouTube channel youtube.com slash fast screenplay. Or just Google my name or writing fast or fast screenplay.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:49
Great, and I'll have links to everything we've discussed in the show notes as always guys. Sounds good. Jeff, thank you again so much for taking the time man.

Jeff Bollow 1:08:56
I really appreciate it had a great time.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:59
I hope you guys learned something from that episode. Jeff was a ball to talk to you, man. And we did geek out a bit on the show. So please forgive us but I think there's some knowledge that got mixed in there somewhere with all that Geeking geeking out so I hope you guys enjoyed it. As always, if you need the show notes, they are at indie film hustle.com forward slash zero 99 and I'll have links for all the things we discussed in this episode. And guys, if you guys have not taken the Warner Hertzog masterclass, I'm telling you I've gone through it, it's pretty, pretty remarkable especially for for people like myself who've been in the business for 20 years, you definitely pick up a bunch of cool stuff, but for someone starting out, my God, I would have killed for something like this. When I was first starting out, so just head over to indie film hustle.com forward slash masterclass. And definitely check it out. One Hertzog remarkable, remarkable course. And guys, the next episode is going to be Episode 100 And I am still thinking what I can do to make it a special episode. I'm working on it, but you will get something soon for Episode 100 so but before I even go into Episode 100 I want to thank everybody, all the fans, all the tribe members who have been listening and supporting what we do or what you do what I do here at indie film hustle. And and with the podcast as well. So thank you so much and and I get I mean, I'm getting so many messages from you guys on Facebook and Twitter, and email telling me your stories and, and how this podcast has inspired you and helped you and guide you through your filmmaking journey. And my God, it's it's so humbling to hear all these amazing stories. So guys, please and also pay forward man, you know, if you learn something, share that information with somebody else. Don't ever feel that you have to hold on to knowledge because oh my god, if I give it to that guy, he might take a job boy from your job, but they don't think that way you can't think about things like that, you know, high tide raises all boats. And that's how you have to look at it. You know, the more informations out there, the better movies that are being made, the better for everybody and the better for the whole industry and the whole the whole kit and caboodle as they say so please pay it forward, spread the word. Please let everybody know about the podcast let everybody know about the website and and hopefully we can keep helping more and more filmmakers and hopefully new generations of filmmakers coming up to make better and better and better content, better stories and better art and hopefully that will change the world just a little bit because art is extremely powerful guys movies cinema is extremely powerful. And as I always say it is your responsibility to get your out your art out into the world because you have no idea how it will affect somebody else. Thanks again guys keep that hustle going keep that dream alive and I will talk to you in Episode 100

YOUTUBE VIDEO

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage – Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. AudibleGet a Free Filmmaking or Screenwriting Audiobook
  3. Rev.com – $1.25 Closed Captions for Indie Filmmakers – Rev ($10 Off Your First Order)

IFH 097: Doug Richardson – Screenwriting Bad Boys, Die Hard 2 & Making It in Hollyweird

Can you imagine having a front-row seat to the start of the filmmaking careers of Will Smith, Bruce Willis, and Michael Bay? Well, this week’s guest Screenwriter Doug Richardson did just that. In 1989 20th Century Fox hired Doug to adapt Walter Wager’s novel 58 Minutes into the first sequel to the hit franchise Die Hard. In 1990, it was released as Die Hard 2, Die Harder.

Around the same period, Doug and his one-time writing partner, Rick Jaffa, garnered national attention when their spec screenplay, Hellbent…and Back was the first in Hollywood to sell for a million dollars. Doug has since written and produced feature films including the box office smash Bad Boys (1995), Money Train (1995), and Hostage (2005).

Doug Richardson, Bad Boys, Die Hard 2, Hostage, Money Train, Bruce Willis, Screenwriter, screenplay, teleplay, screenwriting, screenwriting course

On the Set of Hostage with Bruce Willis

In addition to writing for the screen and print, Doug posts a weekly blog on his website, dougrichardson.com, where he shares personal anecdotes and insight from his thirty-year showbiz career. The first collection of his blogs, The Smoking Gun: True Tales from Hollywood’s Screenwriting Trenches was published in 2015.

I had a ball chatting with Doug and his stories from the set had been mesmerized. He dropped some major knowledge bombs in this interview. Enjoy!

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 5:27
I like to welcome to the show Doug Richardson. Man, thank you so much for taking the time buddy I appreciate it.

Doug Richardson 5:31
Very welcome.

Alex Ferrari 5:33
So let's get into it. Man, how did you become a screenwriter, like what made you want to want jump into this crazy business?

Doug Richardson 5:40
Well, I wanted to be a filmmaker. You know, I wanted to be a film director. In fact, like so many kids with movie cameras, and we used to go, you know, sneak away and skip movies at the mall. And from theater to theater, you know, digest your, you know, kind of 1970s movie geek. And then, you know, once a film school, because you know, that's kind of a natural progression. Saw that I kind of liked that movies were written. And a lot of the directors I really admired were guys who had written movies before. So I thought I would write my way into the business after I got out of school. And I did in doing so I kind of became a screenwriter instead of a film director.

Alex Ferrari 6:27
Gotcha. And you went to USC, correct? I did. How was how was that back then?

Doug Richardson 6:32
Back then when we are in the Quonset huts? Yes. Before George Lucas and Steven Spielberg and everybody built them a mini Warner Brothers.

Alex Ferrari 6:42
Actually, you know what, I just spoke there. I just did a lecture at USC and I just for the first time ever, I walked around. You're absolutely right. It's like

Doug Richardson 6:50
Warner Brothers that that was what it was supposed to look like. It was supposed to look like the you know, the the Warner studio it's supposed to live the interiors and all the all the architecture and stuff was supposed to look like yeah, you know, Warner is except, except it's in better shape.

Alex Ferrari 7:07
Oh, it's brand new. It's like years old.

Doug Richardson 7:10
We were in a little we were in World War Two Quonset huts. On another part of campus, it was just this little tiny quad of Quonset huts.

Alex Ferrari 7:20
So it wasn't, it was it was well respected back then. It was

Doug Richardson 7:23
always an extraordinarily respected, it was smaller, though. Okay. As in there were fewer students that could there was there were only 20 students per year. Oh, Jesus, and in both the grad programs, and the and the undergrad programs are only 20 each, it was tiny. So it was more competitive. in some regards. And and you know, by the time you finished there, were only like 15 each, because people would have dropped or dropped out and moved on. So it was a it was it was it was very interesting, and probably very different.

Alex Ferrari 7:57
Wow, man. Wow. And were you there around the time that Jordan and I was I was there after Stephen was not you never went?

Doug Richardson 8:05
That's right. Long Beach. Uh, I was there, you know, after. Um, so he came and spoke and showed us you know, he came and talked to us and gave like, some of the best advice you could ever get, which was, you know, film school will not teach you anything about filmmaking. But it is no Whoa, Whoa, did you write your I will provide you a great, you know, laboratory in which to teach yourself. And that was very, very true, because there's some people who got through my program, and I swear, when they got finished, did not know where to put a camera. You know, even in the most basic setups and stuff. So versus, you know, a lot of us, you know, got our start there and moved on. And I had a pretty interesting class to some, you know, Ken o'clock. This was not in my undergrad class, but the undergrad to the grad students went along in tandem. So and there were a lot of the programs, a lot of the classes were the same. So you were mixed in with the grad students. And so yeah, so guys like Ken coppice and Steven Blum and all those guys done some work since then, kind of one thing's less. You know, Andy Davis, the producer, Andy Davis, not the director Andy Davis. And some others

Alex Ferrari 9:22
Andy Davis did is it's the same guy. I'm thinking as the guy did the fugitive.

Doug Richardson 9:27
No, that's the director Andy Davis.

Alex Ferrari 9:29
Okay, okay.

Doug Richardson 9:30
Here's the Andrew Davis the producer who's just produced a lot of in a real go to line guy out there. He works and works and works.

Alex Ferrari 9:37
Awesome. Awesome. So when you when you write a screenplay, like what's your process, and I know every screenplay, a screenwriter has a unique process. What's yours?

Doug Richardson 9:47
I don't know. Mine's that unique. I mean, my process is do whatever I need to do, to serve the project. You know, so there's no wheel. I put everything on cards. I Outline I, you know, I, you know, I go into a park and, and write on a bench the way Ron bass used to or whatever, or sit in restaurants and listen to dialogue I would just sort of, um, you know, if I felt a movie really wired you know if it was an action movie, for example, you know, like diehard for example that I felt was a you know kind of a bit of an action opera. That's something I felt like needed to be put on cards versus if it's something that's more of a thriller that's that's kind of need to be felt. Or if it's something that just there was a lot of, you know, a drama that, you know, a lot of that is just research. And then sometimes the outline can be something on paper, sometimes it can be just notions on paper slightly organized, until eventually I get down to sitting down and writing and then the process is then probably very normal, I get that, I write it. I by the time I get done with the first draft, there's a ton of stuff I already want to rewrite, I rewrite it and rewrite it until it's ready to kind of hand out and give to people to read.

Alex Ferrari 11:07
Now do you have Do you? Are you one of those writers that kind of like gets the idea and starts beating it up in your head? First? Or do you do you do use the cards and you use the outlines to kind of beat it up because I like when I write I always, like I always beat it up in my head for probably a week or two, before I even put anything to paper,

Doug Richardson 11:25
I have stuff in my head all the time. I have things that get that form, I'm sure isn't your writer, you understand this. Some things form very quickly. And you can get them on paper. And some things, like I said, are still in my head that I think are really great notions, but have never haven't yet formed into something that I'm either going to write a screenplay or as I do now, which is I write more books and screenplays. But you know, is it? You know, it's it's, there are notions in there that I say there's, there's a movie there somewhere, it just hasn't come at? It hasn't come together yet. So But still, yeah, it's come it has to come together in my head before I start, you know, to put it down on paper, because then it's, you know, I don't know, when I start to put stuff down on paper, I have no idea what I mean, almost everything I put down, I've kind of run through my head.

Alex Ferrari 12:20
Now, are you Well, obviously you've you're working screenwriter you've had you've done many, many movies over the course of your career? Or when what is the process of you actually getting a writing assignment? Like how does that work, so the audience can understand a bit of how it works in the studio system, like your agent gets a call.

Doug Richardson 12:41
There's the weather, the old days, and there's nowadays which is very, very different than the last 30 years. Things have changed. And then there's also their cycles, too. You know, whether they're, they're buying specs, or they're buying pitches, or and what kind of pitches they're buying and, and they want you to come in with a whole nowadays they want you to come in with a whole, you know, sometimes with almost the marketing campaign. Because they you know, versus i remember i This wasn't my pitch but back a long time ago, Dale on or walked in. And the pitch was, she's blonde, she's beautiful, just don't get her drunk. And that was that was it. That was a green light, a blind date. Oh, man, they made that movie. But that was the pitch, at least, that movie that was the myth of the pitch, at least,

Alex Ferrari 13:34
at least, the myth of the great movie back in the day.

Doug Richardson 13:37
And I used to have, you know, back in the days when they were would, there was more development and they would, they were more interested in buying an idea with a writer and it didn't quite need to be as formed and they would actually be part of the forming of it process. You could go in and I did go in sometimes it would only go into the first act or I would go on with just, you know, character and a couple of characters in a situation. And they would say yeah, that's cool. Let's try it. And you know, a deal would be made or you know, and you go start the research or whatever, and you'd eventually write the movie but a deal will be made now. They kind of almost again want the story to be fully baked. They want three acts. And they want like I said practically a marketing campaign. Whether it's something back to your question, whether it's a you know that my agent calls me and says DreamWorks is looking for a haunted house movie, you know, and didn't you have one? And when you go into DreamWorks, you know, DreamWorks wants more than just, Hey, I have this idea for a haunted house movie. Or, hey, you know, the executives want to, you know, unless you're pitching the guy who can say yes, or the woman who could say Guess who's the boss and generally you're not at that point. you're pitching something that you need. They need to be able to take upstairs to their to their boss, the guy who says yes, or take to their big meeting and to the group and see if they can say yes and be competitive with it. You know, sometimes they want more ammo than just the story you want to tell them? You know, this is I mean, now it's like they want, you know, what's the demographic? Now?

Alex Ferrari 15:25
Right, right? You're right, you're absolutely right. They want to like stay one on one stats, they want reports in

Doug Richardson 15:31
our marketing scheme. How we see, you know, do we have a do, can we imagine a slot for this, you know, which is again, very different than 20 years ago, when they just made stuff that they really liked. And only they develop stuff that really liked it only after they developed it to a place that they really, really loved it? Would they then say, Okay, now, you know, how do we approach? How much do we spend on it? route? How would you know? And then the marketing guys would come in? And how would we market it? And how would we write everything out there on a lot of screens? Are we gonna operate on just a couple of markets? You know, so that's now it's just, it's it's very pre packaged, and pre digested and pre marketed?

Alex Ferrari 16:21
So it's, before you might have had if you're not good at business? Sorry? I'm not right. Of course, of course, the end business is a little bit different. But like, do you think that's kind of the whole corporatization of like the McDonald's thing? of

Doug Richardson 16:35
Yeah, no, that's where the, where the corporations bought Hollywood, there was a lot of different there's a lot of talk for a long time about how, how it was going to spin out, you know, and people have different ideas, you know, we're movies gonna be and then you know, there's a whole DVD part of the business Yeah, well, again, and videotape part of the business where, you know, you're you, you begin, like a product and you're fighting for, you know, square feet of shelf space, you know, or linear or linear feet of shelf space at blockbuster or Walmart or something. Um, no one really knew that it would sort of end up going more, where the marketing guys move way deep into the creative side, to where movies were actually made more to fit a marketing scheme, than they were to fit something that an audience is going to love. Right there. They're kind of almost reverse engineered. This is a marketing scheme that we know we can sell. We've been very successful with this kind of marketing scheme. What can we find that fits that model?

Alex Ferrari 17:52
I think one of the movies of recent year of this year actually that kind of broke what you're talking about, and it was a huge monsters hit to the surprise of the studio was Deadpool. They kind of snuck it in. And then the marketing guys made this brilliant marketing campaign. But that was one of those films that I think just kind of, it was

Doug Richardson 18:11
a risky film for them. And it was and it was an anomaly for them. Yep. It wasn't an anomaly. I think they knew they had something they liked. And they knew they were going to have to sell it differently. They clearly had a ball with it. Yes. They certainly had a ball with it. And and then the move then on top of it, the movie deliver and you've got this massive breakout hit. Now is that now a new marketing scheme, that they're going to try and fit again, for something other than Deadpool?

Alex Ferrari 18:42
What well, Wolverine is going to be an R rated the next Wolverine will be the R rated.

Doug Richardson 18:47
Right? Are they going to do I mean, people thought Warner's was going to do that was Suicide Squad, you know, that they were really going to, you know, aim for, you know, but I think they were Warner Brothers was really deep in the Suicide Squad for Deadpool came out. So perhaps they didn't do that. I think, you know, audiences may have been hoping for something with more of an edge. But did that create a new a new marketing scheme? Or is, you know, or is that you know, sometimes they see that and they just write them off as anomalies.

Alex Ferrari 19:19
Right? Of course. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I completely agree. But I do think Well, I think there there is going to be a little bit of a shift. But again, that budget too, was $50 million dollars or something like that. It wasn't in the studio world. That's nothing.

Doug Richardson 19:33
No, it was in the studio superhero world world. It was I think it was an experiment. Yeah. It used to be. See it's an experiment. It that used to be Hey, this is Deadpool. This is cool. This is how much we're willing to risk on it. You guys go go make it we'll figure out how to add a marketing. Yep. Okay. That's how it used to be. Now. You know, it's looked upon as as like, you know, as The lab rat. It's so crazy and and not as less cool. We should we should make it. The movies from the period I grew up on. I mean some of my favorites like Midnight Cowboy. I read something you imagine

Alex Ferrari 20:12
almost a cowboy today from a studio,

Doug Richardson 20:16
the studio that made it the response was this. We love that this is amazing. We have to make it it's incredibly risky. So we're only going to we're only going to spend this we got a director, we got the script, we got the producer, whatever, you guys go make this film for a million for don't spend a penny more. Okay, go make it, don't spend a penny more or we'll kill you. You know, and then they come back with the movie. And then they say, Great, we've got this it bloomed. It's everything we thought it should be. Now we've only risked 1,000,004 on it. Let's come up with a way to sell it. But they made it because they loved it. They didn't turn away movies that they didn't love. They saw something they loved because they love movies. And they wanted to make sure some they saw as like just money, grand sizes, and we're going to make them because you know, they make money but some they would read and they would say oh my gosh, we have to be we have to make this this has to be ours. And they would figure out how to do it now loving something is dangerous because you're not because you're not thinking your way through if it's going to be a marketing thing.

Alex Ferrari 21:27
Do you believe in this whole Hollywood implosion eventually like you know all these big temples are just they just keep rolling the dice so much that eventually they're gonna have a bomb like you know, Batman

Doug Richardson 21:38
superiority is they're already having bombs and like masses, but they're, well, you know, their Heaven's Gate now there's no because there's, they're all the parent companies can withstand the parent companies. The other corporatization is that the parent companies can withstand the bomb that's the you know, and they and they've again been able to pre digest them and pre market them in such a way where their risk is still somewhat you know, minimal right? So it won't kill the studio. It may make them shift a little bit I don't think it's going to be an implosion I think it's going to be a slow erosion of

Alex Ferrari 22:25
cinema

Doug Richardson 22:27
well no it's going to change cinema is going to be there's always people is going to be abroad is going to want to go sit in a dark theater I think and see something really great yeah, it might be small that where it where it goes as far as you know the independent world and what you're able to make independently in theaters exhibitors wanting to willing to book independent films and they're being a market for people wanting to go out one thing they they've done is they price themselves out of a priced the regular movie goer out of the theater as a regular movie going experience because they've been stuck really with that and that that I've been really expecting for a while I think that really hit home this summer with some movies you know it's like oh, what are we gonna see we're gonna see the BFG or Finding Dory you know, or we saw Finding Dory and oh kid sorry you want us to do BFG I'm sorry. I already spent that $150 for that night out month yes and we're not going to go see another movie for another month so I think

Alex Ferrari 23:33
it's very true I have I have twin daughters and everything and I want to go Zootopia and you know we went to go see Finding Dory and But at a certain point you like and they said I think that we want to go out with my wife took them to go see secret lives of the dogs or pets or something. And that you know when like ice age came out, we're like BFG Yeah, like I'm not gonna go cuz it's 40 it's 50 bucks. 60 bucks. Tickets and then there's the

Doug Richardson 23:58
popcorn.

Alex Ferrari 23:59
No, I always bring in my I always bring in my pot. Okay, well

Doug Richardson 24:02
you're that guy.

Alex Ferrari 24:03
I'm that dude dude. Absolutely.

Doug Richardson 24:04
Well your kids are learning to be frugal still 50 bucks Yeah, but still yeah the cost the cost of seeing a movie have have gone up oh raizy compared to five or six bucks on high school it was over six compared to the cost of living everywhere else. Right? It's it's gone. I mean, when they came the other greedy thing is that I thought was I kind of felt was going to happen as soon as they learned they could charge a premium price for 3d, then sure they're going to pay to have movies in 3d and charge the premium price. But the but the 2d prices just crept up right behind them.

Alex Ferrari 24:47
Yep. And now there's Don't forget the big theaters that are special theaters that have this special seating and the special sound and, and those like you know, extra money ultravision or whatever. It's just all you know, all sorts of different things. And you know, Well, I mean, we've gotten completely sidetracked off our coverage.

Doug Richardson 25:03
I know. But it's, it's fun and by the way, but from a writer standpoint, these are important things to know and understand. You need to understand the business and what you you work and the people and the perspectives of the people which you're working for, you know, whatever else you're doomed to, in some respect to failure. Well, I'm

Alex Ferrari 25:24
ask you a question. Now, you know, you worked in a time where, you know, the studios were a lot different, like we were talking about, like, now, you know, a lot of the earlier earlier work in your career, you know, those that was a different kind of time. I can only imagine like every year that goes by, there is a new crop of screenwriters coming into the marketplace. But yet the old crop of screenwriters are still working as well, but yet the number of studio movies are going down. Yeah, now the competition to get even try to get a studio movie made at any level, even, you know, a smaller level like a Lionsgate for 20 or $30 million for certain movies, if that even exists much anymore, is getting harder and harder and harder. Because you know, you know, you've been you know, you wrote diehard to and you wrote Bad Boys, and you know, you and you were a bunch of studio movies back then well, you're not gone. You know, you're still in competition with the new 20 year old or the new 25 year old screenwriter that's submitting there's like,

Doug Richardson 26:24
I'm sorry, if I choose to me.

Alex Ferrari 26:26
Yeah, exactly if you choose to. So, um, well, let's get back to screenwriting real quick. There's two camps that I've heard of, and they are the plot camp and the character camp. Do you sit on one side? Or do you do both? Or you have a foot in both?

Doug Richardson 26:44
Some people might argue based upon my film, please, those of you that have been made, you know, I've written a lot more screenplays in pictures that have been made. Um, I really think I prefer a balance of both. I think character drives plot. So I'm definitely character first, unless you have an agenda, and a character with an agenda that has real characters with agendas that create some sort of conflict. And you have no story at all. But you still have to be an architect of plot to get to kind of get there because it is a movie and you have all you got, especially it's a movie so I mean, you've got 90 minutes to two hours and 15 minutes generally, in which you're going to have to tell the story. So you know, the screenplays they say our structure? Well, architecture is, is there's a lot of plot involved in architecture.

Alex Ferrari 27:48
So plot would be the car and character would be the engine.

Doug Richardson 27:51
Yeah, gotcha. That I guess

Alex Ferrari 27:55
that's a good analogy or not.

Doug Richardson 27:56
Yeah, but that's that's works for me.

Alex Ferrari 27:58
So you wrote one of my favorite movies in the 90s bad boys. How did you get the bad boys gig and how did that come to be?

Doug Richardson 28:07
That was just one of those, you know, right place, right time kind of things. Were they had a Donen Jerry had a whole lot of movies Don Simpson, Jerry Bruckheimer. Were coming back from their sort of lean period, and had three movies ramping up at once. Dangerous mines, Crimson Tide and bad boys. And they had this director named Michael Bay who'd never directed anything but some videos and it got some commercials. And they had half a script. literally half a script that they just stopped. They just stopped even though there have been many scripts for it. It's been in development for like 11 or 12 years. Yeah, it

Alex Ferrari 28:56
wasn't a Danny Carvey and Jon Lovitz, originally it was there was well there was a version

Doug Richardson 28:59
of the movie with Michael Bay directing six months prior to my being involved. That was it was a Dana Carvey Jon Lovitz vehicle. That's and then that fell apart and they started to mess with the script again. And they just stopped in the middle because when they got, um, they had these two TV actors, you know, Will Smith and Martin Lawrence who had hiatuses between their shows are both gonna be on hiatus around the same time someone had the bright idea whether it was Jerry or Lucas Foster, who was that time running their company to put them all on my guest as it was Lucas to sort of like get the get we got the director, we got this hot young shooter and we got these two interesting guys. And Martin unwell came on board and they said that sounds like fun, but the script that they had, they were all forces. Yeah, you know, Gallo had originally written a farce. Um, and that was still at the center of it and and will and Martin wanted to be in an action movie. Right and so I got the call one afternoon Can you come in now? And I'll you know, literally at this moment I was on my way back from a little league practice on a team I was coaching and I, my back hurt because I just thrown about 100 fast balls. And he says, wherever you are, can you come over to Disney now and I said, as long as you can have a bag of ice serious that's so funny. And I sat down and they threw it at me. They said, Look, we got a window. We've got a director we've got Miami, we've got a production office we're putting together we just don't have a script. Can you? Are you willing to just drop everything you're doing right now and jump in and do this. And I was actually in the middle of taking a brief break as I was writing my first novel. So I jumped in and said sure. And we had a very short window of time we had only five weeks of prep.

Alex Ferrari 31:15
Oh my god yeah, I heard I heard from like commentaries and interviews that that will and Martin were really just kind of throwing stuff at the wall.

Doug Richardson 31:22
It was a that was that was kind of the process we were I you know, within days I was in Miami. And with no with no script and, and not much supervision, which is good. No, and just mark them well who weren't there yet. And Michael, who was casting the dog parks and building sets for scenes that I hadn't yet written seriously, that and so it wasn't it was really kind of done completely backwards, but there's a line in the movie where um you know, the two guys come in. And Joey pant, Giuliano pants Yeah, yeah. yells at them say just do what you do only faster. That was actually that was an actual line from Jerry when I asked him that first day I said okay, I can do it. But five weeks and bla bla bla bla bla he said looked at me says just do what you do only faster. That was sort of like every time I saw Jerry I said I'm doing what I'm doing on the pasture.

Alex Ferrari 32:28
Nice. And how was how involved was Bay in this whole process

Doug Richardson 32:33
a was was involved as to he wasn't involved in in the you know, of course Mr. Bay has his own now Mr. Bay is big giant Michael bag. Yeah. So you know, the world gets rewritten. History gets has probably gotten rewritten a bit Michael was pretty much relegated to prepping different things okay and be involved in some casting dawn and Dawn especially didn't want did not at 1.1 Michael you know because dawn was the genius did want him budding himself into the film park the the the the start of the film part of the the the content or story part and Dawn came in just like the weekend before we started shooting and liked a lot of it and sort of got it but Don hadn't been around at all involved in the process. So he came in just days before we started shooting and blew it up and then we then I began putting it back together again as a you know from Don's perspective and so Michael there was the first three or four weeks of shooting it was Michael here your pages go shoot them please don't let the actors go too far off script you know, because when they did sometimes there was a few scenes that we one landed up on the cutting room floor right because Michael let Martin and will go off the page to the point where there was no way to link it to the scene before and after. Right. So there were some times there were moments when I had to there was a couple days where I would win and I had to circle certain lines of dialogue in the morning. Just make sure that micron would work slate the first day so much. Michaels was crazy mad shooter. I mean, the guy could get incredible amounts of film. Yeah, you know, in the can so fast. And so he'd work everyone to death on the foot on on a Monday. So we were working splits already by Tuesday.

Alex Ferrari 34:42
Oh Jesus.

Doug Richardson 34:43
So you had time to go in that morning and say, okay, you know, sit down with dawn and, and we'd circle lines in the scene. And say, look, dude, if you miss these lines, we're Don't get the cars aren't there to say the lines then that we have no scene we can't link it because that movie really is held together with with scotch tape

Alex Ferrari 35:09
we screwed a string and tape literally pretty much

Doug Richardson 35:11
is and you know brilliant editor Christian Wagner brilliant editor because I mean he made scenes that didn't look like they were going to cut all right I'm together and that's kind of how the film's bank It was really written like that about halfway through the process that there was almost like a script It was almost together

Alex Ferrari 35:30
you know the funny thing is is while you were shooting my shooting bad boys I was in Miami I lived in there I Miami at the time. And I was just starting out just starting out my film career and I just heard about it and I heard bad boys too obvious that was even more so because when they came back they came back with a vengeance in Miami

Doug Richardson 35:49
Bondi and then then they did blow up your street there really wasn't that that much. That we didn't have the money to blow up that much. It was that movie a for only like, I think 18 $19 million. All in

Alex Ferrari 36:00
Yeah, back in the day. But I remember seeing that. I'll go into the theater and seeing that it was just so much fun. And that you know, that movie made will a star.

Doug Richardson 36:09
It did even though he was gonna be a star anyway,

Alex Ferrari 36:12
somewhere. But that was the that was the trigger, though. If you if you'd

Doug Richardson 36:15
cpsr Well, if you've ever sat down with them and work with them, it was sort of like, Oh, my reaction to will after the first couple days of rehearsal and hanging out with him. It was like, Okay, this guy is a racehorse. He just doesn't quite know how to go fast yet, but very clear, racehorse

Alex Ferrari 36:37
Yeah, he just like he hasn't figured that he can run really fast. Yes, yes, he

Doug Richardson 36:41
sort will. He hasn't figured out how to run really fast yet. He he could tell I know I'm a racehorse. I know I've got these mad skills you know I just not I'm working my way through them right now. And they're not very self possessed very confident. Very well very fun really nice guy saved my bacon a few times. stories I can't tell

Alex Ferrari 37:07
on air Yeah, so you also did the sequel to one of the most iconic action movies of all time diehard you know how how did it feel having getting that call because I mean, it literally diehard is a masterpiece. The

Doug Richardson 37:24
it was actually still in theaters. And I'd already seen it twice when I got the call. And the reason why I got the call is because I was the baby writer with no credits. And I guess according to Larry Gordon, and Lloyd 11, I had they thought our guest that I had the skill to pull it off at least the talent but the genius behind it, I'm just gonna give credit away again, was because the movie was still in theaters and Leonard Goldberg was running the studio at the time. Leonard who I to this day adore who was one of the greatest people in my career just as a mentor but I didn't know him then. Anyway Leonard wasn't willing to really even start development of a sequel of the movie he didn't feel feel the movie was quite tested yet but Larry felt they were going to need one also they to you know, as you know, very well know if they're doing a sequel. And if they're, they're announcing a sequel that they're going to start writing one it's a feeding frenzy of all the agents and all the it just gets it gets it gets it gets busy and and not very conducive to getting it done. Right. So Larry Gordon said, Okay, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm Larry Gordon. I used to run the studio. I've got swag so I've got this book called 58 minutes that I think we might make a really good diehard I got this writer who doesn't cost very much so I'm just gonna go to the studio and tell him on I want to develop this book into a potential movie it's not going to cost much this guy doesn't have any credit so to speak yet and that was a time when they were willing to yeah Larry go ahead it's not gonna cost much so they throw you know a few Bob at it and meanwhile, Larry was saying to me Okay, whisper whisper they just think they're developing 58 minutes you and I know we're doing diehard to this by the time we're done by the time you're done with the script, they're gonna want there too. So it was he was that was the exact that was the exact you know, talk, and I was like, Okay, you know what you're doing? I just worked here five personally. Um, then Joe Roth came in and took over and one of the first things Joe Ross said when he came in as I need diehard to and Larry said, funny you should say so. And there it was. You had it. He just gave it to him right there and it was greenlit.

Alex Ferrari 39:58
Wow, that's The story behind it

Doug Richardson 40:01
I delivered but the real genius was Larry

Alex Ferrari 40:06
Larry was the one who saw it saw the he saw all

Doug Richardson 40:09
the gears you know and all the storm clouds and could read the weather ahead see the future and again the movie was in theater only there's only three weeks and

Alex Ferrari 40:22
I got the call because it was a huge hit right off the bat

Doug Richardson 40:25
it wasn't a huge hit right off the bat It was a surprise right off the bat movies didn't blow up

Alex Ferrari 40:30
yeah they weren't 100 million dollar openings back then they didn't want

Doug Richardson 40:33
to and yeah I mean all in diehard only made 85 domestic I mean or so roughly it I mean it took a while to get to that number but I hit video screens

Alex Ferrari 40:44
and and stuff video but when it hit you in cable forget it but

Doug Richardson 40:48
but three weeks in a studio wasn't willing to commit yet to a sequel with this I mean this Bruce Willis guy exactly that was that was verses are big people liked the movie but i you know i they just want you know but Larry said this is a frank This is gonna be big I know and you were

Alex Ferrari 41:07
also brought into kind of I guess ghosts right or on the Live Free or Die Hard right?

Doug Richardson 41:13
I worked well no, I didn't ghost write that there were just a lot of guys who worked on it I've actually I'm the guy who broke Mark bombax script

Alex Ferrari 41:22
okay okay

Doug Richardson 41:26
that's that's that's that's a funny way of saying it. I did I did a version of Die Hard three that there's very little love left in that movie at one point but there's a lot of people who work on versions of diehard three and at one point when I was in the middle of shooting hostage with Bruce Bruce came to me and dropped the script on my lap on the set and said can you read this and it was Mark bombax diehard 4.0 which is what it was called then and they thought the title was so clever to do yeah it was so like that's such a cool time it's kind of internet it's I know it's so meta and three hours later we were having a discussion in his trailer you know Bruce didn't want to do Should I shouldn't I do another die hard it was one of those things and I then I didn't want to see another Die Hard I didn't want to write another Die Hard right? And I was kind of trying to talk him out of it me out of it but He then asked the question well what kind of Die Hard would you want to see? So I began to riff I was gonna make another die hard this is what I would do. And the next day literally the next day was a Friday we were at Fox and I was with Bruce with Tom Rothman and Bruce was saying this is the diehard for I want to make and Tom Rothman was looking at me like you asshole You broke my diehard and after I got done breaking it and a lot of other stories then do whether or not it was a good version of diehard or not my version and Bruce had dropped out of it again you know right at another release date had been botched and uh you know eventually he wrote Bruce back in and was able to make Ben did what he wanted to do which is make Mark bombeck script that's what Mark gets credit on it I actually wrote a letter to the guild during that was a massive arbitration all these writers were jumping in trying to get credit of course and I actually wrote wrote wrote a letter saying this is my fallback script. No, I was one of the guys who tried to take it apart and mess it up. And in the end, this is the movie they wanted to make and marching XL credit.

Alex Ferrari 43:56
And there you go. Now are you on? Are you on set for a lot of these big movies as a writer?

Doug Richardson 44:04
Not the diehards while I was already fired by that bad boys Yeah. And hostage I you know, hostage. I didn't leave that movie until it was in previews. I was not allowed to leave that I was on the set every second I got one day off me writing

Alex Ferrari 44:26
in your writing. They always ask you Hey, what can you do a patch up on this? Or what do you think of that? Well, since

Doug Richardson 44:30
I'm there, I mean, there's always a writer on the movie, but since I was there, and I had a French director, and I had very, bullheaded movie star who, you know, liked having me around and liked having me to fight battles with him or for him. You know, there was there were there were a lot of little changes and stuff. But on that movie, whether you love it or hate hostage which people tend to either love or hate it That was the movie we really went out to make. And, you know, there it is. And, as a writer, I probably will never get less if I wrote and directed the movie myself and had complete control, I probably would never have that kind of sway on a movie with a director and a movie star again.

Alex Ferrari 45:23
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. Got it? That's it. That was that was

Doug Richardson 45:36
to the point where it was out of control. To the point was like, I couldn't leave. I had other assignments. I actually lost money on hostage, literally, because I'm working on other movies. I had other assignments I was supposed to do, and they would not. I was supposed to be on the set for the first week. Right? And, you know, go, and I and, you know, Bruce was like, No, you can't leave and then flawless say, No, you can't leave. And this went through all the production and then into the Edit room. And in the test screenings. Jesus, yeah. You were a hostage. I was I actually it's a five part blog that you can read on mice. You can read it for free on my site, or you can buy the book, the smoking gun, which I was gonna talk about that a lot, which is it's Oh, actually, no, you can't read it on my site. You can only read it in the book. Because that's the there's a five or six part blog called writer called writer held hostage. That is in the smoking gun, which tells a lot of the stories of how I couldn't get off that movie. Wow, all the way to arbitration with Robert craves and was just

Alex Ferrari 46:50
no arbitration. And I've heard many other writers talk about arbitration. Can you explain a little bit to the audience what arbitration is with the Writers Guild? Okay, in a nutshell,

Doug Richardson 47:01
profit? Well, one word, hell,

Alex Ferrari 47:04
that's what I've heard from everybody who's ever dealt with it? Well, it's so

Doug Richardson 47:07
antithetical to writing, right? It's so antithetical to collaboration, it becomes this legalistic process, that writers are, succumb to, you know, if they want to receive credit, and now it pits writers against writers. And then studios are able to use the conflict, to their own advantage. In that, that's why they offer these, they they use it to their advantage that they will pay less money upfront for the movie, and then say, but if you get a credit, we'll give you this bonus. So if they put the carrot on the stick for the writer, who might not have might have only contributed, contributed 20%, something that you would the guild would not consider credit worthy. But try and make a case maybe you contributed 33%, or maybe 50%, depending upon the standard. required and and to then go ahead and fight for it. So the studios are also part of it, but it's not fun. And, you know, imagine going in, and you know, anyone out there who's written anything, and then having to go in and defend what you've written on paper to other writers, to a faceless panel of three writers on paper and explain why you deserve credit, instead of that guy. Wow. It's not fun at all. It stops everything in your life, for that period of time. And it's also created an industry of people who do nothing but write arbitrations for other writers.

Alex Ferrari 48:51
That's it. There's a whole industry around it. Yep. Jesus, man, this.

Doug Richardson 48:57
I've been on both sides. I've actually done arbitrations.

Alex Ferrari 49:00
Have you ever written arbitrations? No, I've

Doug Richardson 49:02
lived. I've read arbitrations, I've served as an arbiter, oh, god, it's not fun. No on you, but you want to be fair, and you know, cuz you've done if you've been in one, you really feel like okay, and or maybe if you've been in one and felt like you got you were on the wrong side of it, or maybe felt like you got on the right side of it, because someone did it. Right. Right, you sort of feel like, you know, you're gonna be a good juror and help make a good decision.

Alex Ferrari 49:33
Now, let me ask you a question. Are you any good at pitching, when you go on a pitch? And if you are

Doug Richardson 49:38
good, now I'm certain that now I've decided I suck. I used to think you were good. I think it's it's just a different world to pitch. Now if I have to go in and pitch the whole movie, which I kind of think you need to do almost, I'm not good at it. Got it. You know, I it's like,

Alex Ferrari 49:56
it's not like the player like Robert Altman's a player where I At the beginning of that opening scene, we you see writers just coming in like, so there's a girl, she's beautiful, she gets drunk. Don't get drunk.

Doug Richardson 50:07
Yeah, it's you go in and you used to I used to be able to my whole thing was I would try and pitch characters and, and a first act that would leave everyone with a nice question mark. And if it was a good jumping off point, yeah, I had the rest of the movie. But that was, that became a really energetic and exciting discussion. In the room, instead of you're looking at blank faces. Again, as you're telling the story, they're trying to quantify it for their boss in their heads, do I like it? Do I not like it? Can I quantify it? Can I sell it? Can I, you know, and tell it to them in a way that they can. You know, there's at one point during the pitch, I'm like, if you're not engaged in the pitch as involved and asking questions, I'm sort of like, you must be bored. Now other people are brilliant at it. I've been in pitches with other writers. It's sit there and sit down for 45 minutes and just spin a tail and leave you breathless, right? And that's a Yeah, that's a talent. I do not possess to do it that way. I've gotten it done. But boy, I would do good. Do everything I possibly could to not have to be in that situation.

Alex Ferrari 51:23
Now, when you've written a load of action movies, like how do you approach writing big action sequences and these kind of studio movies?

Doug Richardson 51:33
Ah, I wrote an interesting blog about that recently, just because I got asked that for the 9 million time. Sorry, excited No, no, it's the most. No, I never get the question I get asked the most. Okay, so anyone who's listening this podcast, if they go to my website and read action speaks, there's a longer version of this answer. I'll put it in the show notes. But in that, in that, yeah, go to my website and just look up action speaks in the blog section, um, a good action sequence. Because when I wrote my first action film, which was that that diehard thing, that little Die Hard thing, yeah, I hadn't written one before. Um, but it's it, the ones I like, and the way I prefer to approach them is that they're, it's a suspense film. And the best action is like writing a great scene in a suspense film. The only difference is, is the conflict, um, engages and blooms in action, in, you know, almost sort of like combusts. And in, and, you know, and also then creates another problem for your character, you know, a good action film, unless it's the final action film on the scene, a good action scene. And this is the final, the final scene of the film doesn't, you know, shouldn't resolve it should create a bigger problem that needs to be solved, that eventually needs to be handled in action. It also only works when you talk about what's first character plot, if, if your character is deeply engaged and involved, which is why again, a suspense scene only works if you have a sense of suspense with what's going to happen with your character, how is your character going to behave? If you just got a whole lot of really great stuff happening, but you don't have a character engaged in it, some people would call that stakes by call it characters with different agendas, oftentimes, fighting for some form of supremacy. If you've got that kind of conflict in that scene, if you don't have that kind of conflict with characters injected into that scene, then it'll lay flat

Alex Ferrari 53:54
kind of like when giant Transforming Robots fight for 30 minutes

Doug Richardson 54:02
I'm making but you but but you I can say that, who went there and you can incur Michael Bay's rat. I

Alex Ferrari 54:09
know from I I've actually wrapped the day, the wrath of Bay with Bay ham. I actually am and a lot of people I've actually wrote a whole article post about it. I truly believe that Michael Bay is a genius and what he does, yeah, and I think he changed the game for action. It's ever since the rock and Armageddon pacifically the rock action movies changed the way they're shot. I mean, everyone tries to steal his style and you can see it you can see it movie after movie movie after movie. He is him and Tony Scott both changed the game. In the way action was shot in the in the 90s. And moving forward. Do I like all of Michael Bay's movies? No, they're not sometimes they're not the great I still think the rock is probably his best movie. Other than bad boys, of course, which bad boys is up there as well, but at a certain point like Armageddon It's just fun popcorn. I mean, it's ridiculous. The movie is ridiculous, but it's so much fun to watch. But I do think he's a genius in what he does. I think, like a lot of times, directors get a little bit. They drink too much of their own Kool Aid. And I think, possibly with a 35 minute action sequence with giant transformers, which don't have as big of a stake, as they should, I think that's where certain things go wrong. But

Doug Richardson 55:25
can I can I? Can I tell you where I think Michael Bay's real, real geniuses, please. I mean, whether you like his dirty movies are not and there certainly are people who don't like his movies. He's x with exception of two movies. He's been wise enough to tie his big giant, ego, and machine all to either a bigger ego or a bigger filmmaker. He's had either Don Simpson and Jerry Bruckheimer over his shoulder and Jerry's a genius, by the way, yeah, Jerry is a genius. I've seen it, because I've seen it in action. Jerry is a genius at and so it was dawn, but there's a certain genius to Jerry, you know, you got to kind of sort of be there to see. And, and then, you know, with the transformer films as Spielberg is always been there. Yep. And, you know, other than that, the two films that he that they have made, have made that haven't done well. have been both in films where you didn't have those godfathers,

Alex Ferrari 56:34
the island and, yeah, pain and gain. Right.

Doug Richardson 56:37
Right. So and, you know, I'm not saying he can't succeed without them, because he's been extraordinarily successful. But I think there there's a certain wisdom to saying, you know, what? There's a bit of a comfort zone here that I can you know, that there's that got that Godfather, who can come in and whisper in my ear and say, maybe that's too much.

Alex Ferrari 57:06
Maybe you should pull back here.

Doug Richardson 57:07
Maybe you should pull back here. Maybe we should have maybe I'm not feeling a heartbeat here. So maybe we should go find what are you know, and and i think that's, you know, and I know you that's something that that that's not a knock on on Bay. I think that's where credit's due

Alex Ferrari 57:26
Well, no, I think that's I think that's a really great observation because you're right and to smart director to always have someone whoever that person might be who's smarter than you are right you I mean that's, that's the key to any great leader, right? is always have people who are smarter than you around you,

Doug Richardson 57:44
right? And I'm transformed my films, you know, we're at the development tour and, and Mark Rodman are no idiots. No, either. So, of course,

Alex Ferrari 57:52
of course, of course. Now, tell us a little bit about your smoking gun book. I saw it on your website.

Doug Richardson 57:59
Smoking Gun book is a lot of people have been asking for a long time, when am I going to we're going to put my blogs into book form. And eventually, I just sort of succumbed to my books, or read by my blogs, or repurposed on script mag, like three or four months after I write them. Because the woman who runs script mag, Jeannie Berman is one of my favorite people on the planet. And so it's like, and then it was sort of like in the this publishing company, Fw media on script mag, and Writer's Digest and a few other things. And so they came along and said, will you please let us publish them in a volume? So we put together the first one. And there you go, well, there'll be two and three or whatever, who knows?

Alex Ferrari 58:49
Now you do write a lot of novels as well, you're very successful novelist. Is there a different process when you're writing a novel versus a screenplay?

Doug Richardson 58:57
Yes, and no, the basic process of Get up, write it, you know, rewrite it, want to make it you know, if it's not compelling, then do it again. And why is you know, that my whole thing is, whether you're reading a scripture book, I want the reader to turn the page, they gotta wanna, they got to feel compelled to turn the page, you know, whatever the process or or or platform or platform or architecture of the pieces you just use, it's not compelling, then you know, they're gonna someone's gonna put it down, it's tiring to read crap. So so that's the same process, though, the process of writing straight narrative and fiction, as you know, because you know, movies are sight and sound only highly constructed. Yes, you know, the elasticity of language that you have in just writing fiction, and not being, not being subject to just sight and sound only is You know, really fun. It's fun to do it, obviously. And it's it's a it's also a direct connection with readers because the people who are reading your screenplays aren't necessarily reading it to be entertained, right? Their job or their product, right? Again, they're the quantifiers they're there to, to tell give it to their boss or give it to their client or, you know, yeah, or get someone involved or give it to a financier, they're all looking to move that ball up the hill, someone who's reading your work, whether it be a blog, my blog, or my books, are reading them to be entertained. So that's the other real difference between doing the two. There's a real direct connection with your you know, your audience.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:45
Now, if you were going to give one piece of advice to a screenwriter starting out today, what

Doug Richardson 1:00:50
would that be? Stop. I've always wanted to say that I've never said that I've been asked that a lot. I've done a lot of panels. Just stop, go get

Alex Ferrari 1:00:59
a real job. Now,

Doug Richardson 1:01:00
I would say I would give a few pieces of advice, one of which is the most talented people in Hollywood. aren't the most successful people in Hollywood. It's true in showbusiness is the most relentless people Yep. So you need to channel and find that bit of relentless inside of you and always and and feed it and care for it and bathe it and clean it and make sure it's ready to go up and rip assholes again tomorrow because that if you're because it's so competitive, you've got what's going to make you get up and do it in the morning or if you're not even there yet. And you've got some other job you know what I'm blown away but i mean i the people that I know who have set not second job second they have careers, actual careers and they're writing on the side and trying to push that ball up the hill I I just had odd jobs when I started then I got that I started making a living at it and haven't looked back there are people who have real life jobs and they have to they have to find in curry that competitive passion and that competitive passion should also be there to make sure this is the other side of that that relentless thing is people ask me you know when should I send the script out? Is it how do you know it's good yet? Well, is it awesome is your work awesome? Your work better be awesome make your work awesome. If your work is an awesome then then it's not going to get noticed. What makes you special what makes your work stand out in some way in some form it means to flat out be awesome God Okay, not Yeah, that'd be back in the day. The day I'm such a dinosaur Yeah, back when I was a pop they would throw money at people with talent and drive. I had talent drive and I got going now they don't have the patience for it for talent and drive they expect you to come in ready to go

Alex Ferrari 1:03:15
they don't want they don't want to have to nurture not working.

Doug Richardson 1:03:18
Yeah, I got lucky I had some great people with me. I worked with them. I learned I'm still learning. But still there was not you need to come in and be really good. You need to be great. You need to be special. What makes you stand out? What's your they're reading 1000s and 1000s of crappy screenplays every day. I does your stand out. You know, and is it your voice? Is it your ability to to you know, is it your perspective? Is it your ability to write a great action scene? Is it you know, there's got to be something in it that makes people go Hmm, that's interesting. Why am I remembering that script?

Alex Ferrari 1:03:57
Let me ask you a question. Let me ask you a question about what's like I remember the olden days the Shane Black days. You know back when you know Shane was getting Yeah, three Miley and Joe Astor house I mean, these guys were getting those reminders. Yeah, they were making like obscene amounts. 2 million, 3 million, 5 million for scripts that Joe has your house god my god, he made millions for movies and never got made.

Doug Richardson 1:04:20
Yeah, those were those. And you can realize,

Alex Ferrari 1:04:25
yeah, I mean, it was obscene right now, and I thought those days were kind of over but now Max Landis is starting to come back out with these kind of ridiculous deals as well for his movies and his voice. So do you think that are those days gonna start coming back or is he just

Doug Richardson 1:04:43
back up because those days are always going to come back in one form or another? It is cyclical people do want to watch filmed entertainment. They do want to watch there's you know, there's a lot more interactive entertainment, but passive entertainment has been around since campfires cimbrone are good story people want to see Good story they want to be told a good story and be moved. Okay, whether they're watching it on their phone or watching it on a driving Okay, there's still going to be that okay so and those voices are going to be found and whether they're found in you know the work of Max Landis are there found by the Weinstein's you know, probably burn in hell but they did find Quentin and got you know no yeah and that you know that's happened whoever found and decided to you know the IMA to me I'm just I'm in love with with CMS man it's like Mr. Robot i think is brilliant and here's a guy who just seemingly came out of nowhere practically and is running a show and doing something that's brilliant with his very original voice those are going to stand out in the Vince Gilligan, Vince Gilligan There you go. It's another one. You need to have the patience to within the craft to stay in there and withstand those those cycles and beatings until maybe your voice comes out in its own way.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:09
Yeah, it's it's been around forever. I mean, right? He's been working in X Files. And I mean, he was working, he's a working writer, and then all of a sudden he saw the Breaking Bad

Doug Richardson 1:06:18
and crashed and he was around forever. For me, Jesus. No one knew Krantz who could do that, but Vince Gilligan and Brian's and Brian crafts and then boom, and the rest. So, you know, sometimes those voices come early. I mean, I used to, I'm a big fan of film acting. And, you know, Anthony Quinn, who was always a great actor, when he reached his moment. And he said, I finally think I understood the film acting, I understood, you know, how to control the quiet and how to, you know, and that's when he suddenly went from being a really solid British actor to this frickin genius who went off these runs of characters from Shadow Lands to obviously Silence of the Lambs, you know, to remain to the day. I hate these crate rolls. Sure. We're at edit advanced age. He found his voice fine.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:19
Yeah, Hopkins Yeah. I mean, how old was he when he did sound to the lambs? And he was in his 50s, right? 50s

Doug Richardson 1:07:24
or something like that. But again, you sort of it just sometimes it comes early sometimes. And you see people with these voices, they start and they burn out. Yeah, and it's not an easy business. And then sometimes maybe, you know, I'm still waiting, you know, who knows maybe I'm still waiting to find my voice. I written what you would consider a bunch of programmers. You know, I think with my books, you know, with my lucky day series, I think I've finally sort of found my voice like okay, this is what I really now I feel like I I'm there's something here that's interesting that I'm saying that's worthwhile and valuable and whatever. You never know when that's gonna happen. I think as a writer, you gotta kind of sort of also work at it and be patient. I mean, Lin frickin Manuel Miranda who's obviously got more press than anyone can imagine right now so it's something really cool in that 60 minutes thing he did it those who don't know who he is he's the guy who behind the Hamilton

Alex Ferrari 1:08:20
he's he's really really is brilliant.

Doug Richardson 1:08:23
But he said some this might not be his line he may have been someone else's line. But they asked you about writing he says writing is is like the rusty water coming out of the faucet. Okay yeah right until the waters clear and then keep the clear.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:43
Eye right saw that 60 minute remembered and

Doug Richardson 1:08:46
as a writer I went ding that's perfect that's perfect that makes such sense that makes such sense for so many people you know sometimes it takes a long time to get there just be patient and grind.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:57
Yeah, I was just I was just I just had Jim ovals on okay on the show. I don't know if you know Jim or not. Jim but he said something similar. He say he gave some great advice about how to get through how to write and he basically goes write your first draft. Put it away. Write another movie. first draft put it away. Write a third movie first draft don't stop right away. Now go back to the first movie. That is brilliant advice. And he goes now you're a better writer. Brilliant advice because I always I always call it Don't be a one trick pony. Yeah, just don't isn't that script you you've been working on for eight years.

Doug Richardson 1:09:34
Stop Okay, stop right now. Yeah go write three or four more things and then go back to it. You know then you better is right. You'll be so much better at it. Don't be that guy who just that one thing a writer someone who can write lots of things. And you're and but that I think that is a much clearer cleaner version of of mine. I will steal it and use it. Yes, he

Alex Ferrari 1:09:59
should. Hey, This is great. So I'm going to ask you a couple questions that I tell ask all my guests. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in life or in the film industry

Doug Richardson 1:10:11
patients good more in life than anything else? patients and I'm still learning it every day. Yep. re about it.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:23
And life does tend to teach you that lesson.

Doug Richardson 1:10:25
Yes. Children those things but yeah, patience, you know, not not sit back and watch it go by patience but just slow down. Be patient. There's tomorrow. You know, there is tomorrow, and then there's tomorrow and just get up and do it again. Exactly. That's that's that's that answer.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:48
Alright, and then what are your three favorite films of all time?

Doug Richardson 1:10:51
I hate this question. I hate this question. I

Alex Ferrari 1:10:53
hate this question. Question three movies that tickle your fancy at the moment. Okay,

Doug Richardson 1:10:57
because there's always the will there's one period once upon a time in the West, great movie.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:05
Amazing opening sequence.

Doug Richardson 1:11:06
It's the end and those of you who haven't seen it, okay, don't see it. Until you've watched in order for a few dollars won't fit $4 Yep. Then watch a few dollars more Yep. Then watch good, the bad the ugly. Not the truncated versions and then once you kind of build up to it then when you see what's fun time in the West make sure it's a great sound system and a great screen because that score is unbelievable. Use of sound that original sequence that opening sequence and everything else that movie is just to me the greatest opera ever so and I I cry when I see it so there's that movie. Ah, then everything else is hard. So I'll throw out things that really tickle my fancy Okay, I'm a huge fan lately of I can't watch No Country for Old Men enough. That's a great movie. It fits by I think the purse it kind of the novels I write have that sort of Norrish ness to them at the same time it's about that thin line between doing right and wrong and the road it can take you down and I think that movie does it in so many ways. And so many different levels.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:24
Oh yeah. And great created one of the greatest villains of all time.

Doug Richardson 1:12:27
Yeah, that you can still watch it's just that movie. What was what's better in the movie? The directing the writing, the performance, the Oh modules, it's called Cormac McCarthy's work in it. It's running on all cylinders on lee jones it's just what came for the dime walked in point walked in with you I mean, like God I just go crazy that Okay, and then there's a lot of close thirds you know, I guess I would go I'm going to go to maybe the movie that made me want to make movies which would be gold finger Ah, love

Alex Ferrari 1:13:01
Goldfinger. Man,

Doug Richardson 1:13:02
that's a great movie. I mean, I mean the movie The what made me want to be a writer was was Ian Fleming. Those are the first books I ever read in my life that I wanted to read make me read another book because I wasn't better than but you know, when I was a kid, but Goldfinger was like that was sort of like wow, I mean to a young man, you know, with hormones. Oh, and yes, and dreams and living in a tiny town. And like you see that and you kind of think the really the world is possible. Yep. So that was the one that made you want to make movies so I guess those will be my three.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:43
And where can people find you man online

Doug Richardson 1:13:46
richardson.com pretty simple. Do it before all the other Doug Richardson's in the world did and there's a lot of us

Alex Ferrari 1:13:55
yes there is you got you got on the bandwagon early.

Doug Richardson 1:13:58
Got there early and yeah, and you know if you found other movies I really if you like good really crime fiction I really suggest you go to my site and pick up a lucky day book. Awesome and you I promise you will be entertained.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:14
Doug man, it's been a pleasure talking to you man. It's been a lot of fun geeking out with you and and you've been dropping some great knowledge bombs. So thank you so much, man.

Doug Richardson 1:14:21
It has been a geek fest hasn't

Alex Ferrari 1:14:22
It has a little bit of a geek fest

Doug Richardson 1:14:24
It is alright pal. Alright take care.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:29
I had an absolute ball talking to Doug man he was he was so cool. And the stories from the sets from the diehard set from the bad boy set it's It was great. I heard all these stories about bad boys because I was in Miami when they were shooting it and I had heard all of these stories about how Michael Bay had made it and all these kind of like, you know originally for Jon Lovitz, and Dana Carvey and all these kind of things, and it was really great to hear straight from the horse's mouth. What are happened on that set because bad boys is one of my favorite movies I love my favorite action movies definitely one of my favorite 90s action movies without question and and you know there's no Transforming Robots in that one but but anyway guys I hope you enjoyed it. Hope you got a lot of a lot of good information out of that episode. Thank you Doug again for being a guest and dropping those knowledge bombs. And don't forget to head over to indie film syndicate COMM And check out the indie film, syndicate membership site man, I have all of my courses up there all the indie film, hustle courses, Twitter hacks, filmmaking, hacks, Film Festival hacks, as well as a ton of other screenwriting screenwriting courses, and film business courses, film budgeting, courses, scheduling, all sorts of different kinds of things. We've gotten included in that membership, that monthly membership and you guys definitely got to check it out. It is I mean, I would have killed for it. When I was starting out, it's just so much information, as well as a lot of cool stuff. Being in the Facebook group. And we're going to be doing a once a month Google Hangouts, so we can all talk hang out, ask questions, and so on. So definitely check it out indie film syndicate.com and the Show Notes for this episode or at indie film hustle.com forward slash zero 97 which will have links to everything we talked about in the episode. So keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

YOUTUBE VIDEO

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage – Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. AudibleGet a Free Filmmaking or Screenwriting Audiobook
  3. Rev.com – $1.25 Closed Captions for Indie Filmmakers – Rev ($10 Off Your First Order)

IFH 089: How To Write A Screenplay with Fight Club Screenwriter Jim Uhls

We have a MAJOR treat for the tribe this week. I have no other than Jim Uhls, the master screenwriter behind David Fincher’s “Fight Club”, one of the greatest films in my generation, in my humble option.

Jim Uhls, Screenwriter, Fight Club, David Fincher, Tyler Durden, Screenplay, Screenwriter's Toolkit, Movie Script, How to Write a Screenplay

via 20th Century Fox

When Chuck Palahniuk’s Fight Club was making the rounds in Hollywood, it was a tough sell to be adapted for the screen. But then Brad Pitt got involved; add David Fincher and Ed Norton, throw Jim Uhls into the mix and you’ve got a modern classic.

Jim’s screenwriting credits include of course the modern classic “Fight Club” the feature-film “Jumper” the NBC television film “Semper Fi” and the SyFy miniseries “Spin“.

In this remarkable discussion, Jim Uhls breaks the first rule of Fight Club: He talks about it, working with David Fincher, why he hates outlines and why you should interview your characters. Step inside the mind of the man who figured out how to conquer Hollywood as he lays down knowledge bomb after knowledge bomb in this eye-opening interview.

Jim Uhls, Screenwriter, Fight Club, David Fincher, Tyler Durden, Screenplay, Screenwriter's Toolkit, Movie Script, How to Write a Screenplay

via 20th Century Fox

Towards the end of the interview, Jim gives easily the GREATEST ADVICE ON HOW TO BECOME A WORKING SCREENWRITER I’VE EVER HEARD! This podcast is not to be missed.

Right-click here to download the MP3 
Download on iTunes Direct
Watch on IFH YouTube Channel


Learn How To Write A Screenplay with Jim Uhls

Screenwriting classes often either lean too heavily on theory or simply study the technical approach to writing without a greater context for its use, as if the act of screenwriting exists in a vacuum – it does not. In The Screenwriters Toolkit with Jim Uhls, you’ll learn both the nuts and bolts of the craft, as well as its relationship to getting your work read and ultimately produced.

In this class, he’ll share lessons from his extensive experience writing for Hollywood and the small screen. He’ll teach you how to develop better scripts, get traction for your projects, and navigate the complex professional landscape of script development.

You’ll learn about screenwriting form and content, including:

  • Vocabulary and formats
  • Dialogue vs silence
  • Adapting existing works for the screen
  • Genre-writing

Jim will also share essential insights on developing a career in screenwriting. You’ll learn:

  • The differences between writing for television and features
  • Who to work with: agents vs managers vs lawyers
  • How to obtain and manage projects of various sizes and contexts

The Screenwriters Toolkit is a comprehensive examination of screenwriting form, content, craft, and traffic. You’ll learn how to adapt your content to the size, genre, and desired professional results of the script while also learning about the best on-ramps for aspiring writers.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 7:30
I like to welcome to the show Jim Uhls. Thank you, man so much for taking the time out to to share some knowledge and drop some knowledge bombs to the the indie film hustle tribe.

Jim Uhls 7:39
Oh, you're welcome. It's I've been pressured. I mean, it's a pleasure to be on the show.

Alex Ferrari 7:46
Well, I have I have stalked you on Twitter. So yeah, that's, that's how we got that's how I got a hold of you. So

Jim Uhls 7:54
It's very effective to stalk on Twitter.

Alex Ferrari 7:56
You know, apparently it is I've gotten, you'd be amazed at the people on the show purely because I've I've stalked him on Twitter. So Twitter is pretty powerful.

Jim Uhls 8:07
Yes, indeed.

Alex Ferrari 8:09
So Jim, I wanted to get started, I want to take you back to the beginning of it all. I know, all the way back when you were a small child. No, um, when? When did you get started in the business? And how did you get started in the business? Like what brought you to this crazy carnival that we call the film industry?

Jim Uhls 8:25
Well, I at UCLA, I got a combination degree that was both playwriting, and screenwriting. And I, I entered it as a playwright with some places a background, you know, that I wrote, you know, after high school and early college. And I was like, thinking, well, I'll look into both of them. I'll study both of them. And it was a great program to go through.

Alex Ferrari 8:54
And it's a really great program, the UCLA program, especially screenwriters

Jim Uhls 8:58
It's yeah, it's, it's, it's still top notch. And so I was able to get plays done there at UCLA, which is more of an instant gratification than a screenplay, which is, you know, you write it and, and you hope

Alex Ferrari 9:15
15 years later, maybe.

Jim Uhls 9:18
So I was able to see actors doing my stuff and all that and it was great. And a bunch of us, you know, we went out into the world after that, and some friends of mine, you know, had connections and got agents and then that's how I got an agent and for quite a while I was, he was using a couple of my sample screenplays to seek out work for me and I have got work here and there read writing work. I sold a screenplay. It didn't get made. But um,

Alex Ferrari 9:52
Something I hear a lot of in the business. There's a lot of big screenwriters I've talked to they're like, Yeah, I've sold a ton of screenplays. And not many of them in need.

Jim Uhls 10:02
But yeah, well, in my case, I was paid to write them, right. And then they didn't get made. That's what started to happen after, after I sold one. Either way they didn't get made. So they ended up in the same pile. Exactly. And then one of my spec scripts was, which was about a very incendiary kind of funny but dangerous relationship with this man and this woman. It had, it had some heat on it. And it was used as a sample when Fight Club was going to be when it was being considered, actually, what was happening is the book was in galleys, and it was being rejected by every studio in town, when a friend passed it to me and said, I don't think this is going to be made. But I think you should read it. And so I read it, and I just was blown away. And I thought, Yeah, this'll nobody will make this into a movie. It's too good.

Alex Ferrari 11:06
And it's, it's, I mean, it's a pretty, I mean, it's a pretty difficult novel to translate to, to the film medium. I mean, it's it's pretty it pretty intense, to say the least.

Jim Uhls 11:16
Yeah, at the time, I was lucky. Luckily enough, I was dumb enough to not know how difficult

Alex Ferrari 11:23
As Orson Welles says, ignorance is the best form of confidence.

Jim Uhls 11:30
And so I thought, well, even though it'll never get made, if somebody is hired to write it, I'd love to have that gig because it certainly be fun to be paid to do it even even though there's no chance, you know, so have it be made. And so I the my sample basically got me the job. I was acquaintances already with Fincher for a place called the pad of guys, which also had people it's just it was just a place where people hung out and we're screenwriters basically.

Alex Ferrari 12:03
We're kind of had of guys. Yeah. Is that is the pad of guys still around?

Jim Uhls 12:08
No, no. Okay. But people like Shane Black, were there and Fred Decker. And so in any case, I it worked, the sample work, and I got, I got basically I got the job. And

Alex Ferrari 12:26
No, it was an adventure that got you the job, or

Jim Uhls 12:29
Well, they all decided basically together Fincher, Laura Ziskin was running Fox 2000. And Fox main studio had already said no way. But Fox 2000 had a certain autonomy as a division, and she wanted to make it she was the only place in town that wanted to make. And when she got Fincher on the board, she got, I guess, the really high up powers at Fox to say, you know, you can proceed with developing the script. And so,

Alex Ferrari 13:01
Now Fincher, so everyone understands where Fincher was at his career at that point, he had already made seven. Well, he did alien three, seven, and then the game. So

Jim Uhls 13:10
That actually was a game before. The game wasn't no actually, that's an interesting part of the story. He hadn't made the game yet.

Alex Ferrari 13:16
Oh, so it was right off the seven then when this started being developed.

Jim Uhls 13:19
Right. Right. So he had made seven and it it certainly made his deals from that point, a lot sweeter.

Alex Ferrari 13:29
Yes, seven tends to do that.

Jim Uhls 13:33
And so I started writing, and I was still writing the first draft when he called me and said, I'm going to go make a movie. Okay. So we went to make the game and Fox had to actually, I mean, I was gonna still gonna finish the first draft. But in terms of my other steps, which were in the contract, you know, rewrite in a Polish. They had to postpone those steps. But I turned in when I turned in the first draft after really doing you know, a lot of my own internal drafts, like over and over over and over again. Apparently, I got it right. The studio was excited. Laura was excited. Fincher was excited. And the producers who with when we began, admin entertainment was a combination of Josh Donovan and Ross bell. And then Josh Donen left that company and became an agent again, he had been before. So it was just Ross Bell, and the studio brought in you know, another producer of art Linson, to join in so it was art Linson and Ross Bell producing. Then also along with Seon Chafin who was cinchers producing partner,

Alex Ferrari 14:55
So did seven when you guys were getting fightclub off the ground, obviously finished Name helped a bit to get the thing started. But I think from what I've read because I've studied Fight Club immensely, it's actually one of my top five films of all time. I mean, it's it's an absolute masterpiece. No, I mean, it's it really is anytime anyone asked me I'm like, Well, seven and fight club are up there somewhere up there with Shawshank Redemption and you know, a couple other ones and a Blade Runner. But, but from what I understand with Fight Club, I mean, the studio was going and going, but Brad Pitt really kind of took it over the top at that point, correct? Yeah.

Jim Uhls 15:32
Yeah. I mean, that's what took it over the top to the studio. They've got a well, we've got Brad Pitt doing film with David Fincher. And we're, you know,

Alex Ferrari 15:38
Yeah. And in the way Hollywood thinks, Well, they did seven, and seven was a hit.

Jim Uhls 15:45
Yeah, they love that pairing again. And. And then another great idea, you don't actually Artland tonight, as I recall, had the idea, which was to, you know, the casting of the non named character Jack, to use Edward Norton, who at that time, had his first year of movies coming out his ones. He had three. And they were all very different role, you know?

Alex Ferrari 16:14
Yeah, he had an Oscar nomination off of Primal Fear, if I remember correctly,

Jim Uhls 16:18
I don't remember. But I wouldn't be surprised. But in any case,

Alex Ferrari 16:24
He wasn't. He wasn't a big star by any stretch yet. He was he was good.

Jim Uhls 16:28
But he had that kind of upward trajectory that was also very appealing to the studio and everybody. We liked his acting chops, of course. And so having, having him and then some great actor like Brad Pitt, really, really, you know, put it over the top and

Alex Ferrari 16:49
Halina. I mean, Elena Bonham Carter was chest.

Jim Uhls 16:53
I remember, you know, I was, there's a lot of names of people that were kind of more like that urging, you know, female waif type. And David called me and said, What do you think about Helena Bonham? Carter? I just thought it was so high class, like, wow, she she played that part.

Alex Ferrari 17:13
Like she was in merch, and I removed these like, what's,

Jim Uhls 17:16
Uhh, you know, she'd been in a Woody Allen movie where she was playing someone that was a breast, sort of a, a tough American character. And, you know, she clearly could do anything really, you know, I saw I was just amazing. That sort of like, brought up sort of the, the art level of the whole thing.

Alex Ferrari 17:37
Right. All of a sudden, you had some art house cred? Yeah, that's not just a big studio movie. Now the casting of that movie is, is brilliant. Across the board, I mean, meatloaf, and Jared Leto and all these, like how I mean, I mean, you obviously were pretty close to the production. Obviously, you just didn't write a script and went away. You were pretty close. If I'm, am I correct?

Jim Uhls 18:00
Yeah. Well, I mean, he showed me, he said, we sat down the two of us, David, and showed me the first half of the red cut, rough cut, you know, on his home theater system, and my jaw was just on the floor. You know, it's like everybody was right. For their roles. Everything looked and sounded in was like, everything that I imagined it. You know, I was just floored by it. How? Go ahead. Oh, that's all

Alex Ferrari 18:32
No, no, how much freedom did both you and David have during the making of this? I mean, because this does not seem like a studio movie. I mean, there is a lot of stuff that would have normally been nixed off of a script and never even gotten to a production state. How much freedom Did you guys have? And did you have a lot of battles that you can talk about?

Jim Uhls 18:58
Yeah, that I can talk about? Well, I mean, all I know is that there certainly was a lot of freedom afforded. Fincher and I know that both he and you know, the other producers in Arlington would talk about having conversations with the studio. You know, see what their eyes were kind of like this when I said that so I don't know. But they, you know, they managed to keep it protected. Really the whole way through. I know that in the middle of production. You know, this this story has been told but I'm Laura Ziskin didn't want the line. And it's a line from the book the line.

Alex Ferrari 19:40
I think I know which line you're talking about.

Jim Uhls 19:42
I want to have your abortion and I don't really want that line. It was actually David came up with the substitute. I haven't had sex like that since grade school. Or I said, Can we change it back to I want to have your portion which was nice. Change back.

Alex Ferrari 20:01
No, I mean, but but that other line does work quite well in the movie. I think I heard that story to interview with David to that he was he said that was like, such a great, he is a very, he's a dark human being.

Jim Uhls 20:16
Well, I mean, you know, what, really what I would say is he fires on all cylinders. I mean, he, he had a reputation up to that point. I mean, it started to change with seven, which was such a great character performances and MIDI drama and all that and suspense. But you know, he'd been labeled a visual guy, I mean, he's everything. characters, story, humor, tech, dramatic moments. You know, the whole thing. He's, he really has a comprehensive grasp of making a film.

Alex Ferrari 20:52
He is a comp, he is a contemporary to, to Kubrick, in many ways, I know He is a devotee of Kubrick's from what I, from what I've read.

Jim Uhls 21:01
It's interesting, you brought that up, because when I first read the galleys of fightclub, when I was finished, I kept thinking Clockwork Orange. Oh, and that was part of why I was thinking this will never be done, you know, here by a major studio in the United States. I was like, No, I it's not going to happen. But I always kept thinking of Kubrick the whole way through. Because I feel like fightclub is, is definitely something that is in the same line of films that go back to clockwork line.

Alex Ferrari 21:35
Right? I was actually, probably about a year ago, I had watched Clockwork Orange again, and I hadn't seen it in probably a decade. And my mouth was on the ground. I just, I forgot, like within the first 20 minutes that Kubrick got away with I'm like, my god, if this movie comes out today, it would cause an insane amount of controversy today. I can only imagine what it did in the 70s. So I think Fight Club is is definitely deserves a place on that mantle without question. Because their stuff in Fight Club, they just go How did this get through? Like how did this get intercutting? I mean, I think it was the first male penis male, any penis?

Jim Uhls 22:20
I've seen male. Yeah. On a studio movie.

Alex Ferrari 22:25
You know, I remember seeing it at like the AMC. I was like, did they just flash a penis on the screen? Now, let me ask you, when? What's your process to adapt something like this? Like, what was your you know, it was like a lot of people said it was almost impossible to adapt into, into into this medium. So what was your process? And then adapting that not only this but other other like other material into the medium of film? Like what was your process in this fight club specifically?

Jim Uhls 22:58
Well, to start with, I want to say that it's very interesting, but Ross Bell had someone type the novel as a screenplay, and it was 500 600 pages. And it was just in suffering, couldn't you because you want to do like read parts of it with actors. And it was just like, flow, you obviously can't do it that way. That's not how you adapt.

Alex Ferrari 23:21
Yeah, the godfather would have been he wasn't doing that.

Jim Uhls 23:24
He just wanted to have some actors read parts of it and stuff like that. But it was just interesting to see very vivid way of seeing that you cannot just turn a novel into a screenplay. So I, I knew that what everybody wanted at the end of the line. When I turned into first draft, was a screenplay, a screenplay that everybody would want to make. And that was the overriding priority. It has to be a screenplay. It has to work as a screen story. And fortunately, I sort of stylistically sort of melded with Chuck poloneck and put in the step where I put in my own material it seemed to mix with where I was using stuff from the book. But the main thing was, is this structurally, I had to put together something that worked as a screen story. And I would take the book and go through and use a highlighter to highlight all this stuff, like I want to use, I want to use this I want to use that because the book has got a lot of stuff and it can't all go into the movie, right? So I would I would do that. And then sort of use that as a guide. And then sit down and stare at a blank screen for hours on end and be full of fear.

Alex Ferrari 24:57
Yes, yes.

Jim Uhls 24:59
Well It's interesting that sometimes writing scenes that feel like they're like you felt when you read those scenes in the book, writing them differently than they are the book is what it took to make it seem like it was from the book. It was actually the changing that made it seem more like it was from the book, it was an odd thing. But I think that's one of the parts of adaptation is to convey the spirit of the book sometimes means you're changing something.

Alex Ferrari 25:42
Got it? Yeah, I can omit Yeah, cuz, I mean, I remember when I first watched the first Harry Potter, I'm like, well, they skipped that part. And they skipped up. Right. I mean, enough's enough. But absolutely. Now, how, um, How involved was David? Oh, first of all, how involved was Chuck in the in your process? Or did you talk to him at all?

Jim Uhls 26:04
Yeah, David. And I brought him down a couple times. We first time, we just hit him with all these questions. Why did this happen? And why did that happen in check to say, I don't know. And then we said, yeah, for instance, the scene in which Tyler is driving the car and swerving into headlights. While he's forcing, we call the narrator Jack. He's never called a name in the movie. Or, you know, in the dialogue of the script at all, but we had to put a name down. So we put jack down. When Tyler's forcing him to answer questions, and threatening to have a car accident, well, in the book, it's not Tyler. It's just another one of this project, ma'am. Space monkeys driving? Mm hmm. And we said, why wouldn't it be Tyler and Chuck because, wow, that's a really good idea. But he was also great. He also did clarify a lot. I don't want to make it sound like it was all like that he did clarify a lot. And he also was extremely supportive. Uh, he had no official you know, attachment to the project. But in this casual, friendly way he was he was just a wonderful presence. Supportive, informative. And we did get a lot out of having him around.

Alex Ferrari 27:33
He is an interesting soul.

Jim Uhls 27:35
Oh, he is totally fascinating. I mean, really, he's so multi layered. I could just do a separate interview about him.

Alex Ferrari 27:46
Stuff I was like, It's the it's the whole. I mean, just look at his body of work. I mean, you look at someone's, you know, you look at an artist's work. You can kind of creep a little bit into the into the soul of that person. And if Fight Club is any indication, or choke or any

Of the other books that he's written?

Jim Uhls 28:08
Yeah, they're into his soul for sure.

Alex Ferrari 28:10
Yeah. And they're making they made a sequel to fight club in comics, right?

Jim Uhls 28:15
Yeah, that was Chuck project. He wrote it in an artist did the artwork of course yeah, that was interesting. I also wanted to tell you my I actually don't know if you know this Alex, but I'm writing a pilot based on his second novel survivor. Oh really be a top pilot for an ongoing series. Let's change the name of course because of the reality show. It's his novel about a person who survived a religious cult and then basically it focuses on after that and he becomes a call leader a different kind you know, more on the national circuit more not not on a compound like he was but a guru a thought leader going around you know, traveling and being on television and all that kind of stuff a Tony

Alex Ferrari 29:14
Robbins kind of guy Yeah, right Wow. That's gonna be so hopefully on HBO or Netflix.

Jim Uhls 29:22
Yeah, we don't we you know, we don't have I'm the company's paying me and we don't have the studio or the network yet.

Alex Ferrari 29:29
So hopefully it's a network where you guys can kind of just flourish and not have to worry about I don't I don't know if that would work on network television hopefully cable or or streaming so you

Jim Uhls 29:39
Would not be welcomed in the doors of a network.

Alex Ferrari 29:44
No, so much on NBC and ABC at this point. From the creator of Fight Club calm.

Jim Uhls 29:52
I like to have my ass hit steps as I bounced down. You what I tried to go into

Alex Ferrari 29:59
Oh, that would be fun. That would be a fun interview. fun meeting to watch. So, so how involved so obviously, Fincher was extremely involved in the screenwriting process with you, correct?

Jim Uhls 30:12
Oh, yeah, yeah. And, you know, when I was doing the second draft and third draft, I go to his house. You know, for a few weeks before actually just going back to myself, and doing the draft, we would have these, you know, daily meetings and go through everything. And he was just wonderful working with him. I remember by the time we were working on the end of the movie, he and I both got up and started. Well, he could say this, and he'd move over here, and we're going all around his living room.

Alex Ferrari 30:45
Like just having fun, like really creating.

Jim Uhls 30:49
Right?

Alex Ferrari 30:49
What a shock. Amazing, isn't it?

Jim Uhls 30:54
Oh, creative people. You know how they are?

Alex Ferrari 30:56
Well, I've heard well, I've heard that he's, he's just brilliant in the sense of just he is so multi layered. And he knows a lot about a lot. And he's just one of those guys. I saw an interview with Morgan Freeman, who said that he's just like, his mind is a steel trap. It's just remarkable to work with with him on anything, and and obviously, his career has flourished over the years.

Jim Uhls 31:20
Yeah, right. definitely been a great career.

Alex Ferrari 31:26
So when Fight Club was released, it was not a huge hit when it first came out. It was domestically, yeah. Domestically, it's just kind of well, so. So was it a hit overseas? Well, by their standards,

Jim Uhls 31:38
Yes. I had the studio standards. And they I don't know if it wasn't all countries, but it was, I believe in England, or the UK. And some of the continental European countries it was.

Alex Ferrari 31:50
But here in the state, I remember when it came out people. I mean, it's a hard movie to mark it. No one really knew how to

Jim Uhls 31:55
Yeah, that was a really, you know, I mean, after everything we went through and put it all together, and it's there it is, and it's just Fincher is really put together this wonderful thing. It was like, oh,

Alex Ferrari 32:09
Marketing, how do you market like, and I remember, I remember, friends come up to oh, sorry, go ahead. And I remember seeing the posters of it up in the, in my local in my local theater, and I was like, I'm gonna go see that because I knew who Fincher was. And I knew, you know, I wanted to see Brad and all that. But I'm like, wow, over the years are you start analyzing, like, Man, that's a tough movie to sell. Like, it's,

Jim Uhls 32:31
Yeah, I had friends come up, you know, maybe in a couple weeks afterwards released and they hadn't seen it yet. And they said, Oh, yeah, no, I'm gonna see it. It's what it's about amateur boxing, right? Oh, my God. I just, I didn't know what to say. I was like, No, oh,

Alex Ferrari 32:49
It's not about amateur boxing. By any stretch. So when so but it was obviously a movie that was a slow burn. And but it was very well received, wasn't received. Well, critically. I don't remember

Jim Uhls 33:04
Why it was mixed. But we did have some great champions like Janet Maslin of The New York Times with just a glowing review. And the San Francisco and Chicago, we did pretty well. Now with the LA Times. Oddly enough, so he was mixed, which I kind of liked, because that made me feel like the well, that's right. It should be mixed.

Alex Ferrari 33:28
Yeah. If everyone loves this movie, there's a society.

Jim Uhls 33:31
I feel like well, wait a minute. What's wrong with everybody? Not supposed to love?

Alex Ferrari 33:37
Exactly. So for you as a screenwriter, how was it like when this this beautiful thing that you guys put together came out? And it was mixed, and it wasn't a huge hit right away? Um, how did it feel for you as I mean, this was, at that point, the biggest thing you would have done, correct?

Jim Uhls 33:54
Well, I was my first produced film. I, the mixed reviews I was excited about actually, I mean, I didn't like reading the negative one. So I was really jazzed that it was mixed the box office. That was disappointing. And then when it was released on DVD, and those sales skyrocketed through, you know, yeah, stratosphere. I was just, it was so vindicating, you that was just validating. It was great.

Alex Ferrari 34:26
I've much I must have purchased at least four or five different special editions of that damn movie. So your residuals, you got at least a few cents for me, sir.

Jim Uhls 34:36
Well, thank you, I appreciate that.

Alex Ferrari 34:38
Um, so, enough about FICO, because God knows we've talked a lot about that, but we talked for hours about Fico. But can you tell me the craziest story that you can publicly tell us about working as a screenwriter in Hollywood?

Jim Uhls 34:55
The craziest story?

Alex Ferrari 34:57
Yeah, just like, did that just really happen to me?

Jim Uhls 35:03
I think that probably the I mean, if it's really about being the screenwriter, in those moments, I'd probably say, craziest thing is something really that I did, which I did it several times, which is when I was supposed to come in and pitch my take on doing an adaptation of something. I turned it into a full on conversation with everyone in the room. And we all talked about it and, and we had ideas about how you'd handle certain things. Now you do it. And we'd have this long conversation by the end of it, they go great. And I got the jobs. But I never pitched you know,

Alex Ferrari 35:41
You just would walk in and like Alright guys. So what do you guys think about this? And let's see this.

Jim Uhls 35:45
I wouldn't start with what do you think about? I mean, that would be too much. Right? Start off actually talking about some things I thought, right first, then I would bring them into a conversation. And it was great because I hate pitching. I hate pitching. You know what, I'm just talking from beginning to end. I hate it. But of course, I've also done that too, because there's been people that are not going to sit there and have a conversation. Okay, what's the tank gym?

Alex Ferrari 36:16
Got it. Got it. Pitching is not something a lot. I mean, it's it's an art form in itself. Yeah. And I know a lot of screenwriters who just don't dig it?

Jim Uhls 36:26
Yeah, I even thought about hiring a real sales type guy to just do it for me while I'm sitting there. You know,

Alex Ferrari 36:32
That would be brilliant. Can you imagine walking into a studio meeting? Like, who's that? That's my pitch, man. I'm just gonna sit here. Oh, that has to go in a script somewhere. I mean, seriously, that is brilliant.

Jim Uhls 36:46
Well, I mean, it's, and the only reason it wouldn't work is they want to hear it from the writer. You know, unfortunately, it's a fantasy, but I don't think they they go for it.

Alex Ferrari 36:55
One day before, before, it's all said and done. And you catch up you, you walk away, you should just do it for the hell of it.

Jim Uhls 37:02
Just It was right before I was gonna walk away. There's a lot of stuff I would do. And I mean, it might be I get arrested for it.

Alex Ferrari 37:10
Fair enough. I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure you can tell some stories off air. Were pretty interesting. Entertaining. Now you did do a you did have a formal education at arguably one of the best screenwriting schools in the world. Do you think you need a formal education to to be a successful screenwriter?

Jim Uhls 37:33
Well, I mean, what helped about it is the roundedness of it the breadth breadth of courses, and, you know, understanding a lot of different things about the world and studying a lot of different areas is certainly good for any writer. But I wouldn't say you have to have that. I think you have to have some kind of, you know, professional class that really teaches structure and everything else, but I would think that's pretty important. whatever form it takes, but it doesn't have to be, you know, in the university system. Got it. You guys. Okay, good. Oh, no, that was it. I have some I have a hallucination next to me who sometimes murmuring you might hear it that fair enough.

Alex Ferrari 38:27
Do you? Do you outline the story before you write it? Well,

Jim Uhls 38:34
I hate outlines. I hate pitches. I hate outline. The reason I hate outlines is they're bloodless, lifeless statements of, you know, you put down in this scene, this emotional thing happened. Oh, really? Well, great. Okay. The idea is like, it's a clinical technical description of what the script is supposed to be. And people want it because they want to know what the script is going to be. But when they read it, they don't know what the script is going to be. They know what the technical description this cold clinical collection of statements is. That's all they know. And they can go I don't know, I don't feel it. What course you don't feel like

Alex Ferrari 39:18
I haven't written it.

Jim Uhls 39:22
But I have to do them. I mean, I haven't always had to do them. But some projects you you have to do them and I'm just sort of cultivated getting better at making them seem to have feelings in them. That's the the only way I can handle doing them.

Alex Ferrari 39:44
Now in your opinion, and there's a couple there's two camps here. For for screenwriters and writers in general. Are you more in the character camp that drives a story or plot camp or both?

Jim Uhls 39:58
I know it's funny. I think I am in the character camp. But it seems like that when I'm thinking about character, I'm thinking about the plot as well like, but because it's because I'm thinking about the care, I might not only think about the character solely as filling out a whole human being and making them three dimensional and you know, all the texture with them, I'm thinking about them doing things and going through stuff. So it's, it's, I would say, it's definitely heavily character driven, generated, but I'm thinking about plot, same time.

Alex Ferrari 40:40
No, do you? How do you find the voice of a character? Like as a writer? I mean, I know every writer is a little bit different. But how do you find your voice and your characters?

Jim Uhls 40:49
Well, I'll put two of them together. And I'll just start writing scenes, I like to do what's I call it writing outside the script. And there's various forms of takes. One is scenes that are, well, they are scenes that are not going to be in the script. And sometimes they're just scenes that I put in any situation. And sometimes there are scenes that would come before the story of the script starts. And sometimes I interview the characters, where it's, you know, I type Jim, and I type my first question, I type character, name the answer, and I try to go them, provoke them, get them angry, then get them, you know, suddenly talking in a sentimental way about some memory or something, and then get them joking and laughing and basically just get them all over the range with questions. And, you know, it starts off it's very, very mechanical at first. But they sort of start to come alive in the interview. It's interesting.

Alex Ferrari 41:59
When you were talking about that I was thinking about Charlie Kaufman's adaptation, pushing the character and asking the character just for whatever reason, as a writer, I love watching that movie is one of my favorite movies as well. Yeah, that's a great, it's such a brilliant, again, that's one of those movies that's outside the box without question. Anything Charlie writes is pretty much outside the box.

Jim Uhls 42:22
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Alex Ferrari 42:24
So um, you wrote plays before you got into screenwriting? How did that help you in your screenwriting craft?

Jim Uhls 42:31
Well, I mean, that was, you know, it's it's characters behaving and talking. So that was the critical aspect of it, that I carried over into screenwriting plays also have structure and you have to write to that structure and build it well. And you have to build scenes so that a scene has, what is the purpose of the scene? What's the event of the scene? And then what's the takeaway from the scene? And all that thinking, in playwriting is are the same considerations you have in screenwriting, it's a completely different medium, in a different form, because of course, plays have long, extended scenes. And on the same set, you know, before the set changes, if it does someplace take place on the same set the whole way through. screenplays go all over the place, and scenes are short. But you still have those considerations. Why is the scene exist? Why is it in this story? What's the advent of it? And what's the takeaway from it? And you're also writing characters who are alive and vivid and behaving and speaking and doing things to each other.

Alex Ferrari 43:51
Now, you spoke about structure, what is your take on the like the hero's journey structure, the three act structure, the four act structure? What is there something that you kind of always gravitate to? What is your thoughts on structure in general? Because I think that's something a lot of screenwriters, especially young screenwriters are starting out screenwriters kind of forget?

Jim Uhls 44:11
Right, right. Well, I do basically go by the three act structure. It's, you know, I mean, I may not slavishly follow it. But it's basically what I do with the structure. I mean, then the second act is, is the long act and it's a very difficult act to write. It's one in which the build, really you have to keep an eye on the bill. You have to make this thing continually raise the level of the adrenaline in the audience watching whatever type of story it is. I'm not just talking about thrillers or something, but I didn't have a professor once say to me something very interesting, which is when an audience starts to watch something.

Alex Ferrari 44:59
We'll be right back. back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show

Jim Uhls 45:10
their tolerance is very high. And that tolerance, you know, for what they're watching what what's happening, decreases incrementally as time passes. So you can start off with anything happening, anything going on and you know it, maybe it's mysterious and the audience doesn't really, you know, whatever, it's the opening, you're kind of just getting into it, the audience is totally, we're ready to, yeah, let's let's do this. And then after a while, it's going to be i, this better be going somewhere.

Alex Ferrari 45:47
You're absolutely right. He was absolutely right,

Jim Uhls 45:50
That that attitude of this better be going somewhere gets more pointed as time goes on. So that's one thing to keep in mind. When, when you it's it's it's sort of a structural overview to keep in mind as you're going through the whole thing.

Alex Ferrari 46:09
Now, as a screenwriter, and as a storyteller, you know, things that God you got away with, in the 80s, or, you know, or movies that got things got away with in the 30s or 40s. You know, this audience has become so much more sophisticated because of their bombardment of media and movies and stories, that it's becoming harder and harder for screenwriters and filmmakers to really do something that surprises them, or keeps them enthralled or keeps them going. What is what's your feeling on that? Because I mean, things that that that played in the 80s Don't play today? Like you can't put you can't you couldn't release commando today. You know, in the in the 80s, it was just great, you know, but now you'd be like, I'm probably not gonna fly. So what what do you think? What's your feeling on that?

Jim Uhls 46:59
Well, at this point, movies have become basically two things. tent poles, you usually if not always based on pre existing material that has audience recognition, because that's the studio's you know, clamor for safety and their investments. And the other type of movie is the independent film or the independent, like film that's actually being done by a division in a studio. Yeah. Yeah, there's a term Washington insiders and Washington outsiders and everything. And I was in the indie film is outside the studio system, but he, the independent divisions of Studios is like, pretending to be outsiders, while they're actually insiders.

Alex Ferrari 47:47
Right! Because Because that's another that's another market that's like, oh, wait a minute, let's get a piece of that market. Because there's so many of

Jim Uhls 47:54
Making an independent film, though, as an independent film. Yeah, we're putting it out. You know,

Alex Ferrari 47:58
Yeah, it's look, it's there's a there's a cool little logo, it's not Paramount is paramount Vantage. It's not the same. It's Fox 2000. It's not, you know,

Jim Uhls 48:10
Right. But, you know, thankfully, they're, they're doing it because that's another venue. But I think those are the two basically type type of films and the independent film. It's actually part of the, the ethos of the financial model that it be successful. Critically. In festivals, if it does go through the festival circuit, that's not the same commercial model for a temple. It's just, you know, it better be making money, you know. And so independent films, basically live or die by their quality, which, you know, it's that actually a very exciting thing about them. I think,

Alex Ferrari 48:53
Well, yeah. I mean, there's, like, you know, we're making our movie right now. You know, Julie, the star of our movie, and we're making our little movie. Yes. She's, she's tremendous. Yeah. And and, you know, we're making our little movie and it's truly an independent film. You know, Fox 2000 or Fox Searchlight is not doing anything you know, we raised our money and we're, you know, we're making a small little independent film for a small market. But the financial risk is slow as low extremely low as opposed to Ghostbusters. Which, you know, after this last weekend that came out as of this recording it did not It's not living up to the expectations of the studio I'm from what I've read same thing with independent state I mean, the these big budget films that these 10 poles that keep coming out that are there's a lot there's been a lot of bombs this summer, like a lot of like big

Jim Uhls 49:48
They liked it. They use the word disappointment and and I actually go along with that. I mean, a bomb is a bomb. I mean, that's like, you know, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 49:56
A million dollars in five

Jim Uhls 49:59
But a disappointment is it's not as big a hit. And that that happens to you know, I mean, I really enjoyed Ghostbusters. I have a lot of fun and but, you know it financial disappointment means well, we wanted to make more, you know,

Alex Ferrari 50:18
That kind of thing. Exactly, exactly. Or Independence Day for that matter or the BFG, the Spielberg movie that didn't do as well. Things like that. But do you believe in that whole Hollywood implosion that, you know, there's going to be a moment that these studios are going to have, you know, let's say a studio puts out two or three temples and they all financially just die or not do well. And that could it could cripple a studio because some of these I mean, some of these movies are 200,000,200 50 million. I mean, look, the risks that they took on Avatar was massive back then, and right, you know, I mean, that I could have not fought out. I mean, it really could have hurt them really badly if that movie did not do what it did. But or imagine if Disney's $4.5 million investment and Star Wars, which is obviously not a risk. But if that asks for our Star Wars movie didn't do well, my God. I mean, that could have really hurt his knee. Do you believe in that? Oh, how like Spielberg and Lucas said that there's going to be a Hollywood implosion at one point that the studio system is going to take a big hit. And some of these studios are going to going to fall because they're just rolling the dice so much on these big big temples.

Jim Uhls 51:33
I don't know. I mean, it is a possibility. It's definitely a possibility. I I don't know how many CO production co I don't know what you call it. It's not really CO production. It's co distributed distribution. With two studios. I mean, that's been done in the past. I don't know how much they're trying going to try to do that in the future, but certainly is something that helps share the burden. But yes, it's a possibility the implosion is could happen.

Alex Ferrari 52:04
Now, um, this is a this is a loaded question. But it's a question. I'm just curious to see what you think of what is the greatest challenge for a screenplay screenwriter facing and staring at a blank screen?

Jim Uhls 52:21
Starting to type,

Alex Ferrari 52:23
Just the first word, you know,

Jim Uhls 52:24
I mean, really, I know that sounds like I'm just kidding. But actually, I'm serious. Sometimes I just make myself guy is like, Okay, I'm tired. I'm not gonna do this writer's block thing. I'm not doing it. So I just type. I just make myself type. I mean, I'm typing the scenes that, you know, a scene I'm supposed to be working on. But I just do it. I mean, there's a point in, you know, it's like they say, with working out exercise, you know, just do it that kind of, but it's really true. It's sit there and start putting your fingers on the keys and typing, you may not feel a thing, you may feel like, Oh, I just totally have no inspiration. I don't know what I'm going to type anyway. Just start typing. Because at some point, if you don't let yourself stop, you're going to get into it.

Alex Ferrari 53:22
Eventually, so you don't sit around waiting for that muse to come and tap you on the show?

Jim Uhls 53:25
Oh, yeah. That's, that's the road to writer's block, which is the you know, that's I look at that, like a disease. I don't want to get, you know, I never want to go into that. Because I've known people who've been in there, and they've been in it for months and months, like, No, I'm not doing it. I'll just type I'll type gibberish if I have to, but I'm not going to get into writer's block.

Alex Ferrari 53:48
You just got to let it you got to turn the hose on. And whatever comes out comes out. Exactly, exactly. And eventually that water will turn into wine.

Jim Uhls 53:56
That's true. It will if you just keep typing it well.

Alex Ferrari 54:00
So you also created a remarkable course online called the screenwriters toolbox. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

Jim Uhls 54:08
Yeah, it's interesting. I when I first after I did it, I started to try to get some people to tweet about it and stuff like that. And they thought that I, because I said it wrong. I said, I did an online screenwriting course. And I forgot that there are ones that take place in real time that are over, you know, and that's not what this is it all this is permanently there. It's a filmed lecture that's always there that you can always get. So I want to make that clear.

Alex Ferrari 54:39
I'll make sure everybody knows the link to it. It will be in the show notes and I'll I'll mention it in the podcast as well.

Jim Uhls 54:46
All right, thanks. Yeah, no, it's, it's meant to be the basics. So I cover the basics of you know, format. A cover the basics of style, and by that I mean you know, How you use things like going into a shot, because greenroom screenplays are supposed to be written mostly in the master scene format, because you're not supposed to direct on paper and cut to his face cut to his hand, show this show that you're not supposed to do that. So I talked about using a master scene, but the permissible use of going to individual shots, you know. And so that's kind of like handling the stylistic, the basic stylistic approach. And I talked about, you know, starting to seem late and ending early, which is you don't want to write every you want to seem to be as short as it can be. And you want to start Absolutely. Where it has to start and not before. And you want it to end where it should in. And so that that bring, you know, that's part of that is what I call shoe leather, which is the stuff that really doesn't need to be in the script, you know? Hey, Alex, where's it pencil? Oh, it's in a drawer over there under the calendar. Oh, thanks. Oh, yeah, I just opened the drawer here. Yeah, you're right. There's a pencil in here. Yeah, no, I'm sorry.

Alex Ferrari 56:16
That's good. I've read that

Jim Uhls 56:17
It doesn't need to be in the script. And you were talking about how audiences become more sophisticated part of that is we can, you can shortcut a lot more. You can make transitions of cutting into a scene to something else. Without an intern interval scene, I guess you'd call it or a scene between them. You mean, you don't have to show him go to his car, or walk in the building? Or, you know, even more things you don't have to show if you just go bam, right from this scene into the next one. And the audience can follow because they're more capable of following the short handed film grammar now. And so you've got to write that way. So anyway, I you know, I cover things like that, in the Creative Live. course that I did

Alex Ferrari 57:10
Now you, when you were saying that one of the huge mistakes I've always seen in screenplays, and I've been in my early screenplays, I was I was guilty of it as well. Is it just telling everything and not showing? So now or being economical with my words, like, you know, as opposed to to people? Hey, Jim, remember when we were in high school? A wasn't Mrs. What's her name's class great. She was hot like you, there's a much better way of saying that statement or getting that information across maybe in a couple words, or maybe even in a look, or maybe in something else. So the the economy of, of that kind of information is something that is basically the screenwriters job, right?

Jim Uhls 57:52
Yeah. Well, I mean, one of the hardest things that we all face with it is exposition. You know, it's information that has to get out, but you can't have two characters telling each other things they already know. They just can't.

Alex Ferrari 58:06
Because you don't do it in real life.

Jim Uhls 58:08
Right? You don't know how to do it in real life. So, you know, they can't sit there and say, you knew Mr. Williams, and you didn't? Yeah, I knew Mr. Williams. And you knew Mr. Williams. See how we both knew? Yeah, it's like, you can't do that.

Alex Ferrari 58:24
But we've seen movies, we both see movies that does that. Yeah. Without question.

Jim Uhls 58:30
Or can be a character telling the character, something he doesn't know. But it's just a bunch of setup information. That is not really a scene between two people. You can't do that either. So it's difficult to find a way to get information out with characters behaving naturally as they would in real life.

Alex Ferrari 58:54
That is the job of the screenwriter. That's why That's why they get paid well, when eventually they get paid. So um, the what is the best advice you can give to a screenwriter just starting out today?

Jim Uhls 59:12
Well, I mean, if you're starting out then that's that's actually what you're doing. You're starting so you should be writing like a maniac because you're passionate you love writing, right? So you should be doing it writing one script after another. I mean, the advice I give to somebody who's actually going to write their first script is write your first script all the way through don't stop don't go back and revise while you're in the middle of it. You can make notes but write four words only to the words the end right Oh, first draft I say that because I want to prevent people from rewriting act one for the rest of their life.

Alex Ferrari 59:53
Yes, I I've been in editing for a long time. I know that feeling.

Jim Uhls 59:59
And then I say Put that script aside, you wrote a rough draft, put it aside, no, can't touch it. No, write a second screenplay. And write that one all the way through. With only writing forward, no going back all the way to the end. And put that second script aside. Write a third script, same thing all the way through to the end. You can make notes, but you can't go back and revise, put the third script away and take the first one out. Now, you're a better writer, you're a better writer just for having written three scripts, you're going to approach the first script. As a better writer, you're going to look at it more objectively because you haven't been looking at it for a while, and your head has been in two different screenplays. Now you're going to go back and have a more masterful view. Avoid should be done to that first script. And then you're going to apply the same thing. When you go again, to the second, and the third script.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:10
It's great. That is probably some of the best screenwriting advice I've ever heard. And seriously, it's like so simple, but yet so powerful. And so just basic,you know?

Jim Uhls 1:01:21
Thanks. i Yeah, it's,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:23
You write three screenplays, you're gonna be a better writer. Yeah,

Jim Uhls 1:01:27
I mean, yeah, that's, that's part of it, too. We were talking about education classes and all that. But if but what I just said, is one way that you're already making yourself a better writer on your own, just by yourself.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:41
That's really, it's something that, you know, I preach from the top of the indie film, hustle, mountain here, that it's about work. And about showing up every day, as Woody Allen says, 90% of success is just showing up.

Jim Uhls 1:01:57
Right? That's the same thing with just type. That's exactly the same just type, just keep writing.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:03
And I know a lot of screenwriters who are still like, I've been on my screenplay for a year. I'm like, Jesus, man. Jesus, you got it. But what you've just said makes perfect. That's the difference between someone who's just going to be stuck in this one script for seven years, or someone who's going to build a career, at least have 30 scripts that go shop around. And probably it was 30 scripts, maybe two or three of them were or something that could be shopped.

Jim Uhls 1:02:31
Well, another thing, I'm what I want someone to get past that three scripts, right, three scripts thing is, emotionally, people can put a lot of expectation on the first script, I'm writing a script, and now I want it to sell or get an agent or whatever, and all that stuff is swirling around in the person's head. So if they drop it after the first draft, and go to a second screenplay, they broken that cycle of having so much need for the first group to do everything for them and make their entire career happen.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:05
You know, it's the it's what I call the homerun derby is you only think you're going to up the bat once. And you're going to and you have to hit a homerun. And if you miss and you strike out the will, that's it, as opposed to concentrating on hitting singles. Because right singles will eventually turn into homeruns. You know, you will get you get on base and you'll score, but because of all the singles you've hit every once in a while, they'll throw that pitch the right way and boom, you hit it out of the park.

Jim Uhls 1:03:33
Well, that's really good. That is yes, I like that analogy a lot.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:37
I that's I just actually said that the other day on a podcast because I was like, Guys, you got to stop this homeowner mentality because I've been in that home run mentality. And the funny thing is that you what you're just saying now about screenwriting. I've, I've, I've started to do, but with directing. And I know that sounds crazy, but I have, I've always had the same problem. Because I've been stuck on trying to make my first feature for 20 years, mind you, the technology is changing. Now it's much more affordable. But now I've just said, Screw it, I'm just going to make my first movie. And I already have two other ones lined up. And I'm just going to keep shooting because I'm going to keep them at a certain budget level. Or I can keep shooting and every day I shoot, I learned something new. And I'm doing it all myself. And it's all coming out great and blah, blah, blah. And you just kind of keep doing it. And you're not putting all those eggs. And that pressure on the one movie or the ones right where you're doing Yeah,

Jim Uhls 1:04:30
That's great.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:30
You know, it's it's something you have to do. And I think that it's it's great advice that I mean that seriously some of the greatest advice for screenwriter have ever heard. And I've had a lot of people on the show. And it's like just write three screenplays straight and don't go back. And then after the third one, go back to the first one. And you'll be a better screenwriter. It's just, that's really really the best advice is always the simplest I find.

Jim Uhls 1:04:53
Well, well, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. But but you know, I'm one of my one of the things I like to impart is you know how much A person can learn on their own. And I'm not dissuading from taking a screenwriting course or anything but like the screenwriters toolbox. Yeah, I want you to take my course. Go to Creative Live and get my course I will give you. But I like I like ways that writers can learn on their own and get better on their own. That's an important part of it. So it looks like that's what you're doing with directing as well. So that's helpful. And it's

Alex Ferrari 1:05:30
Also what Robert Rodriguez did before he made a mariachi. He's like I did 30 short films, they were bad. And I just kept doing them and doing them and doing I got all the bad crap out of my way. And then I went off and did all mariachi and then just kept going. But you need to get that bad stuff out. It's like your first script, which a lot of screenwriters didn't like my first scripts gonna win the Oscar. I'm like, that's extremely rare. I don't know if it's happened. I'm sure it has happened. Like, you know, the first got Well, I mean, what was the usual suspects? I'm not sure if he that was his first script. But I know there's there's there's some cases to be said that there was a screenwriter who first script was like, you know, amazing. But generally speaking, that's the lottery ticket. Generally speaking for the rest of us mortals. It takes time to develop our craft. Right. So what is the last? These are the questions I ask all my, all my guests. So what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in life or in the film business?

Jim Uhls 1:06:32
The lesson that took the longest it was most important, and it was a tough one to finally really, really learn is to be have your mind in the process, and not in the result. Don't be obsessed about the result, just stay in the process. Because it may not get made, it may not happen. That's not what you're supposed to be thinking about. That's what does, that's what causes ulcers. That's what causes anxiety, right? Be in the process. And it did take a long time for me to get away from constantly be thinking about the result, rather than the process.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:13
It's it's enjoy the journey, not the destination,

Jim Uhls 1:07:16
Right! Basically, well don't obsess about the destination,

Alex Ferrari 1:07:20
You get there. Right. Right. Right. So what are your three favorite films of all time in any order? Or any kind of films that just tickle your fancy at the moment?

Jim Uhls 1:07:32
Well, I mean, that's, that's a really, really difficult question for me, because I like so many in the span of going to films from the past. The deep past international films, it's just, let's say, really difficult for me as it but I can say that, certainly one of them is Dr. Strangelove. I've had a profound impact on me because of the tone, the tone is nearly impossible. It's it's it's ridiculous, greatest tones of a movie, it's ever been achieved. And I think that's the most difficult thing, element of a movie to achieve is the tone of it. And I then became obsessed with writing reality based characters in a mix of comedy, and drama, or suspense, or, or whatever it is, as a style that really impacted me

Alex Ferrari 1:08:32
Dr. Strangelove or anything Kubrick? I mean, I'm a huge, huge, huge Kubrick fan.

Jim Uhls 1:08:37
Like I could just then I could start naming directors or I could start naming countries and

Alex Ferrari 1:08:43
So which director so if you can name two other movies, what are two directors who just, you know, blow up your skirt?

Jim Uhls 1:08:51
Well, in all honesty, I have to say David Fincher is one of them. I mean, and I know that's not the same as somebody viewing their work only because I didn't work with him, but also viewing his work. You know, I mean, he's he and Kubrick and, and Spielberg who has this way of you, he pulls you so in that you just believe whatever he wants you to believe. You know, it's just amazing. So I mean, I can go on with directors. It's like that's Daisy. Yeah. Scorsese oh my god that was a big mean STS was also a huge influence on me in terms of tone and and the way characters can behave. And it can be funny and it can be scary and I mean, just and that applies to his other movies as well. Oh, good. I mean, and certainly taxi driver and Raging Bull are like you know, it's Wow, you just don't know tight wire of anything you know, that you could do. Dangerous, funny, scary, exciting. It's you know, so yeah, Martin Scorsese is way up there. I mean, that's the Westway don't like to list because I'm going to leave somebody out in the movie out in the moment.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:15
And yeah, I mean, we could sit down and just geek out about movies and for four days, I'm sure.

Jim Uhls 1:10:23
Right, right. I mean, and Orson Welles, you know, certainly is a is another major favorite of mine.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:30
And when you saw Mean Streets, I mean, you saw it when it came out. Like I saw Mean Streets later on.

Jim Uhls 1:10:35
I saw it later. Oh, you saw it later. Yeah, I saw later.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:39
Okay, so it was, but it was still when that's hard for people to feel like when you see Mean Streets, like, at the moment, that was something really, like out there saying, like, Easy Rider, like, you know, you look at each rider now you're like, oh, that's, that's kind of okay. Or Blade Runner, Blade Runner you like, oh, that's that looks nice. But boink manette came out? There was nothing like it.

Jim Uhls 1:11:02
Yeah, mind blowing. I think it is. But no,

Alex Ferrari 1:11:05
I mean, I could I mean, I'll put a Blade Runner against. I mean, many things going on today.

Jim Uhls 1:11:11
Right!

Alex Ferrari 1:11:12
Many, many, many movies. So Jim, where can people find you? Online, not your personal home address. Just have to really clarify. I've had a few guests go? What I'm like, No, you'd like online.

Jim Uhls 1:11:31
Right! I don't have my own website. But I on Twitter, I'm Wohojak, wohojak

Alex Ferrari 1:11:41
Okay. You're gonna get a lot of stalkers now I'm sorry.

Jim Uhls 1:11:45
That's all right. You know, it's Twitter. I'm used to it. It's everybody else's used to it. So there you go.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:53
You have a Facebook page?

Jim Uhls 1:11:55
Yeah, I do. I'm just under my my own name.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:00
I'll put the links to where you can find Jim and his personal home address in the show notes.

Jim Uhls 1:12:07
But you can't find me there though. That's the problem.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:09
Exactly. You're always all over the place. Jim, and thank you so much for this has been an absolute joy and pleasure talking to you. So thank you so much for being on the show.

Jim Uhls 1:12:19
Well, thank you. It's been great talking to you too, Alex, really? Terrific. Terrific. Conversation.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:25
Thank you, my friend.

Jim Uhls 1:12:27
Thanks.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:29
I told you. I told you. I mean, that was such a fun. You have no idea what a thrill it was for me to be interviewing Jim rules. I mean, you know, as a kid growing up watching Fight Club, and you know, and studying and analyzing Fight Club over the years. It is such a thrill having him on the show, and he brought the goods, and then some that piece of advice. Right, those three screenplays is, I mean, seriously, as simple as that sounds, guys. It is kind of the basis of everything. And and I'm glad he liked my analogy of the homeruns. Because I really do think that's a lot of times what filmmakers and screenwriters do is they put all that pressure on that first movie or that first screenplay. And when it doesn't go, they get discouraged, and they fall out. And I just want to say something on the side note, guys, you know, as you guys are listening to this, because you are creative artists, you are content makers in one way, shape, or form, whether that be a writer, or a filmmaker, or an artist, and it is your responsibility as an artist to succeed. Now, I know that sounds weird, but you have a responsibility to the world to get your voice out there. All right, because you have no idea. Like I said before, you have no idea, the impact your work as an artist could have on another human being, you have no idea. And I do speak from experience with this with what I've done with indie film, hustle. And with my past films, and what I've done in the past, you can change the course of one person's life that could change the course of many other lives. So it's your responsibility, whether it's making a song, whether it's writing a movie, making a movie, creating a YouTube channel, putting up content, you have no idea what the impact of your art will be. So God dammit, it's your responsibility. So get to it. Well, yeah, and stop messing around. So as promised, I was going to give you guys a link to Jim's amazing course called the screenwriters toolkit. So all you got to do is go to indie film hustle.com Ford slash toolkit. That's indie film hustle.com Ford slash toolkit, and you'll take you right to Jim's course. And if I were you, I would definitely pick it up. It is really, really, really cool. So now guys, if you want to be part of the indie film Syndicate, which is our amazing filmmaking community that we've created, that is flourishing And we're talking and helping filmmakers out in the community. It's really, really amazing and they're getting access to a ton of stuff that that I've been able to put up there as far as courses are concerned on screenwriting, on filmmaking, on distribution on film festivals on all sorts of great great things on cameras and cinematography, and so on, and new content going up every month. And of course, the micro budget film a feature film masterclass, which is analyzing this as Meg as I make it, you definitely should check it out guys indie film syndicate.com. And I will be opening up in the next few weeks after I'm done shooting this is Meg. But we're going to have a small window where you can have lifetime access to the membership to the community for one flat rate. So that is something coming up in the next few weeks. So definitely keep an eye out for that. But definitely guys check it out indie film syndicate.com. As for the coming weeks, I've been stockpiling a ton of amazing interviews with great filmmakers, like Diane Bell, who won Sundance, and we go through the entire what happened to her and her crazy ride, roller coaster ride at you know, actually being in Sundance and winning Sundance. And as far as a bunch of other new guests coming up very, very soon, as well as some more hard hitting raw episodes of some subject matters that I think need to be discussed. So they might be coming up very soon. So keep an eye out or an ear out for that. Please, guys, share this information with as many people as you can. Okay, I want to help as many people I want this information to get out to as many artists and as many filmmakers, as many screenwriters as as I can, because I really hope what we're doing here at Indie film, hustle can help the world a bit. I know that's grandiose, but help the world a bit and help create some good art that can hopefully change the way things are in the in the world. I know that sounds fufu that hippie from LA, but but in all honesty, I really do hope that so please share every episode you can or the episodes that move you or touch you. Of course just animo was always the indiefilmhustle.com. And if you really love the podcast, and love the content that we're creating, head over to filmmakingpodcast.com And leave us a good review. Hopefully, that really helps out our ranking and helps us out to get the show seen by more and more people. So thanks again. The show notes for this episode are at indiefilmhustle.com/089 and have links to everything me and Jim talked about in the episode. And as a treat. I will leave you today with the philosophy of life. By the one the only Tyler Durden keep that hustle going. keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

Tyler Durden 1:18:02
No, man, it couldn't be worse. woman could cut off your penis while you're sleeping partially out the window moving car. There's always that and you buy furniture and tell yourself that's it. That's the last sofa and everywhere else happens. Got that so I had all I had there. There was a wardrobe that was getting very respectable close to being complete shit man. No, it's all gone to Vegas come through, like just a blank. One guys like you and I know what a cafe is essential to our survival in the hunter gatherer sense of the word. Know what our consumers or consumers we are byproducts of lifestyle obsession. Murder, crime, poverty, these things don't go so what concerns me celebrity magazines, television 500 channels. Some guy's name on my underwear. Rogaine. Viagra Leicester, Martha Stewart. Buck Martha Stewart. Artist polishing the brass on the Titanic. It's all going down man. Fuck off. Sophie units and string green stripe back. I'd say never be stopping or I say let's evolve chips forward ma that's mean that could be wrong. terrible tragic. Stuff. Good lose a lot of versatile solution for modern accurate my insurance is probably gonna go what things you own end up owning.

YOUTUBE VIDEO

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage – Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. AudibleGet a Free Filmmaking or Screenwriting Audiobook
  3. Rev.com – $1.25 Closed Captions for Indie Filmmakers – Rev ($10 Off Your First Order)

IFH 072: How Marketable is Your Film Idea or Screenplay?

So how marketable is your film idea or screenplay? I know so many screenwriters and filmmakers who spend months and sometimes years on an idea that is cool to just themselves.

Depending on what you are attempting to achieve with your story, you should always figure out if your idea is marketable or if you have a fighting chance of selling the screenplay or final film.

Paul Castro, the writer of the Warner Brothers feature film August Rush (Starring Robin Williams) shares with us his thoughts on how to test and find marketable ideas. You can download the MP3 or watch the video below.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:00
So today I wanted to talk about the marketability of your idea or your screenplay specifically or your screenplay. You know a lot of people always go off and you know spend six months a year even longer either writing a screenplay making a movie and they don't even understand if this is even marketable if it's something that the marketplace wants or is positioned in a place that you can sell it you know, I've seen so many filmmakers go off and make a movie and spend six months a year two years of their lives putting stuff together and they have no idea if the the idea of the movies even marketable and it's a waste man and I hate again all depends on what you're trying to do if you're trying to just put out art or trying to do experiments and keep the budgets low and you could do whatever you want and that's fine Go for it. But if you're spending you know as a substantial amount of money and it takes you a year or two of your life and you haven't even tested to see if this is even a marketable idea my god it's just such a waste so please always test your ideas go off and do a little do a little research and see if the marketplace is interested in your kind of movie. And if the if it is interested in your idea, do you need stars attached things like that, to make it a marketable thing now, where you start with this whole idea is with the screenplay with the idea is this a marketable idea or marketable screenplay? So if you're only a screenwriter, listen up, because this is going to be very, very valuable information. And also, filmmakers who are screenwriters slash directors slash producers definitely perk your ears up, because you're going to get some knowledge bombs thrown at you right now. So Paul Castro, the writer of August, Russian, I have put together a course called the million dollar business of screenwriting. Now I'm going to give you a one of the lessons that he teaches in this course called is your screenplay marketable? What is the marketability of your screenplay. So I wanted to give you a kind of a sneak peek of the course in this podcast and listen to one of these amazing lectures that Paul does in this in this course. Now, this is not just for screenwriters, this is also for directors, producers, filmmakers, who have ideas that they might want to get fleshed out, or a movie that they're about to start, definitely listen to what Paul says, because it might save you years of your life, let alone 1000s and 1000s, or even, maybe even millions of dollars, depending on the level you're at. And at the end of the episode, I'll give you a special link to get the course at a substantial discount. So sit back and get ready to get your minds blown.

Paul Castro 4:00
I wanted to talk to you about the marketability of your idea. So writers we all have a peppering of all sorts of ideas, bombarding our psyche and our soul often, and most of the time every day, at least for me, and many of my friends. So how do you choose an idea? Well, I think it's important to take your top three ideas, and be really honest with yourself, is it marketable? Because there are ideas out there that are real, something that's interesting to me may not be interesting to the world. So I wrote a script about a Fugu chef one time the Japanese puffer blowfish, which is the poisonous fish and I love this story, and it got some traction but nobody ever bought it. And the writing experience was a value for sure. But I could have spent those eight weeks to 12 weeks to eventually six months, working on something that was much more marketable. So what makes a marketable screenplay that's going to put you in the best possible position to sell it. So These days, it is a true story. For some reason Hollywood and actors, movie stars like to play something that actually happened. So how do you acquire that? Well, you acquire it from source material, what is source material from a magazine, a book, an article, something you've seen in the news. Now, you may be saying, hey, Paul, that's great. But I'm a new screenwriter, how am I going to acquire that? Well, from my experience, I have seen that book authors are a lot more accessible and open than say, trying to get to a movie star. So if you approached a book author knows I said, he or she not the agent, because agents are wonderful, but they're the gatekeepers. They're trying to protect that person. And they're trying to get them paid, understandably so. But if you approach a book author, and show your passion for the material, have a plan for how you're going to adapt it from book to the big screen. And oh, by the way, you're going to do this for free, as long as that he or she gives you a free option. And if the material once you're done with it is had a level of vibrancy and at a high frequency of quality, that that person says yes, this is what this is my book on screen, in a screenplay form that can eventually make to the big screen. Yeah, I would love to see you did a great job. If they agree to that, then you go forward as a team to sell the entire project. And it costs you time and sweat equity, that can be done. And most writers are a bit trepidatious and shy and circumspect in going that route. Because they feel like well, what value do I have to add? Well, I'm here to tell you, you have a lot, you're a creative, right? That's invaluable. And if you're going to be brave enough to approach this person, and coming from a good place, you're not trying to rip anyone off, you're trying to add value with your talent and creativity, you can acquire some wonderful stories, right? So the market is very friendly towards a true story. Something that's current, is it a strike these days, you hear a lot of stories about autism, which is a very important subject. All right, if there's something that is relevant to the science world, as far as a curable disease, something that has an energy beyond just a true story. All right, an Olympic hopeful, who blah, blah, blah, fill in the blank. Maybe there's something in your hometown, some somebody that nobody even knew about this person. And you could bring that story to fruition through a screenplay where there's a will there's a relative, and there's also a way. So I would encourage you to start looking for true stories, something from source material, if there's a book that you saw when you were you read when you were a little kid, and you Why isn't this ever been a movie, then that's a voice a little God wink that's telling you to pursue it. So your job now is to spend the next I'm sorry, not one hour, two hours, going to Google going to your role, the text going to your hometown, going through all your resources to identify a true story that you can bring to fruition through the craft of screenwriting. So you have two hours, make sure you hit the restroom, get some water, get some amens whatever you do, and get prepared because two hours and you're going to on Vale the gym that you were meant to write through a true story from source material. Okay, in 321 right.

Alex Ferrari 8:57
I'll tell you what, I learned a ton from Paul walls working with him on this course. I mean, he goes over things like how to workshop your screenplay, which I had never heard of this whole technique of how he actually workshops a screenplay so he can get feedback and make it better it's it's pretty, pretty awesome. How to submit to an agent how to get your screenplay to an agent, pitching how to read a room, not read a person but actually read a room, which is amazing how to write different kinds of screenplays from 30 minutes, sitcoms to one hour dramas, residuals, a W GA, writing assignments and so on. I mean, it's it's a pretty dense course on the business of screenwriting and how to actually make a living being a screenwriter. But again, a lot of the concepts and things that Paul talks about for screenwriters can easily be translated to filmmakers. So definitely a course to take a listen to and as promise I am going to give you a discount code so all you have to do is go to indie Film hustle.com forward slash screenwriting 25 that's indie film, hustle comm forward slash screenwriting 25. And you'll get the course for 25 bucks. I mean, that is a absolute steal, not not even playing around guys, it's so dense. And there's some more preview. When you go to that link, you'll see a few more lessons, you can kind of preview and take a listen to. Well, well worth it, guys. So I hope you got a lot out of this episode. And like I said before, on other episodes, I'm really trying to bring the highest quality film courses and knowledge to you guys through our podcast, through our blog, and through these online courses that we're creating for you. And by buying these online courses. You're supporting the show, you're supporting indie film, hustle, and what we're trying to do, and spread all of this valuable knowledge to you guys and to indie filmmakers who really need it because like I said, the reason I started this whole thing is I was just tired of seeing so many filmmakers just not making it and getting eaten up and chewed up by the film industry. And I wanted to give out as much free information as I could, but also create really top and next level courses that will take that knowledge to another place. So by by buying this, buying these courses from us, you really help us support what I'm trying to do at indie film hustle. So I thank you from the bottom of my heart guys. And also there is a 30 day money back guarantee if you don't like it, so if you just want to listen to it, give it a shot, but it's definitely worth it. Alright guys. So as always, please head over to filmmaking podcast calm and leave us an honest review of the show. It really helps us out a lot. And don't forget to go and sign up for our free Facebook group so you can talk to all the other tribe members and be part of the indie film hustle community, share your information, share your knowledge, share your what you're shooting, what you're making, all that kind of stuff and ask questions. That's why I created it. So it is a vibrant, wonderful community that we're building slowly but surely we're getting close to 5000 members already at the Facebook group so please head over to indie film, hustle, calm Ford slash Facebook and sign up it is free. So as always guys, keep the hustle going. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

YOUTUBE VIDEO

IFH 071: Save the Cat – Screenwriting Story Structure Made Easy

Why would you want to ‘Save the Cat’? If you are a screenwriter or aspiring one you should have heard by now of Blake Snyder’s game-changing screenwriting book.

In his 20-year career as a film producer and screenwriter, Blake Snyder sold dozens of scripts, including co-writing Blank Check, which became a hit for Disney, and Nuclear Family for Steven Spielberg — both million-dollar sales. Named “one of Hollywood’s most successful spec screenwriters,” Blake sold his last screenplay in 2009.

His book, Save the Cat!® The Last Book on Screenwriting You’ll Ever Need, was published in May 2005 and is now in its 24th printing. When I read this book it really had an impact on my storytelling and screenwriting.

Thankful Blake was not done and apparently it was not quite the last book on screenwriting you’ll ever need, as the eagerly awaited sequel, Save the Cat!® Goes to the Movies: The Screenwriter’s Guide to Every Story Ever Told, was published in October 2007 — shooting to #1 in the Screenwriting and Screenplay categories on Amazon.com. Blake’s third book, Save the Cat!® Strikes Back: More Trouble for Screenwriters to Get Into… And Out Of was published in November 2009.

Blake’s method has become the “secret weapon” of many development executives, managers, and producers for its precise, easy, and honest appraisal of what it takes to write and develop stories that resonate. Save the Cat!® The Last Story Structure Software You’ll Ever Need has codified this method. Blake passed unexpectedly in 2009 but the Save the Cat community carries on Blake’s work.

I had the pleasure of interviewing one of Blake’s main pupils Jose Silerio. Jose is carrying the torch of Blake’s work and travels around the world well…saving the cat.

Enjoy my informative interview with Jose Silerio.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:15
Jose man, thank you so much for joining us on the indie film hustle podcast. I really appreciate you taking the time, man.

Jose Silerio 3:17
Hey, thank you very much for having us. Alex, it's I mean, we're happy from Sema from save the cat to be part of this and you know, just to help out screenwriters as much as possible.

Yeah. I'm a huge, huge fan of Blake Snyder's work and save the cat. I read all three books. And they're, they're amazing. And they've kind of changed the business a lot ever since they were released. So can you tell me a little bit about Blake and save the cat? For people who don't know?

Alex Ferrari 3:44
Yeah, definitely. You know, as you said in the save the cat three sort of became big in the industry. And that's not you know, it's not just simply us tooting our own horn. But it's really from our own experience. Even when Blake was still around. We saw how his his method, his books really became popular. And Blake, really, you know, he's a screenwriter yet, just like most of us, right? He started screenwriting way back in the 80s. He was even he started working for his dad in his in his dad's animation series, doing the voices for the kid in the in the show and all that and he got into screenwriting way back in the 80s. And he's he's sold, you know, several scripts throughout his career. I'm telling you, I think 12 or 13, all together in in in a couple of their made which is blank check and stop or your mom or mom does shoot which are kind of the more famous ones he did. That came up. But I think from Blake really what he did with save the cat and how it kind of how we didn't vote for him was that, you know, just like everybody else in the industry, especially for writers, there are those ups and down moments. And as a writer, you're always you know, struggling to sort of break Even though and I said that even though you're in already you kind of have to keep proving yourself over and over it's

Jose Silerio 5:07
What have you done it's like Janet Jackson says What have you done for me lately?

And I think that kind of came from him knowing that that struggle who went through you wanted to make sure that other writers following him sort of had it a little bit easier if I can put it that way. And He found you know, he had his own method of developing structure and which you see it's funny because he had this little story and I can't actually remember if it's it was in the book where in his introduction to structure was that he you know, this was like, early late 90s or late 80s system where he was he went into one of these development meetings, he submitted a script you know, the producer was there and they decided talking about the script and the producer goes to him so what's your you know, break after break? And he was just Oh, um, you know, he says kind of just sort of nodding his head and kind of just talking what the story more than after the meeting ended in a way when all other producers moved out and all that the one producer who's really only with him pulled him aside and said you don't know what the actual break is right? Yeah, I have no idea what to do. Right sort of became his introduction into creating structure and him realizing that you know, in order to tell a good story, regardless of the story, we need structure and again so he's developed his own system which eventually began to save the cat method and again because it's from his own experience of wanting to help other writers later down the road you know he just simply wanted to share it because it started working for him and in and like you said, you know once he published the road save the cat The first book was published and people really gravitated toward it and it just exploded

Now we're good you know what were save the cat came from the name

But the name save the cat itself is a term that he uses you know and it's it's it's a simple way for your audience to like your your main hero You know perfectly it's the same the cats literally comes from the term you know, saving a cat you know what it is it's it's you just put you give your your your hero and action to do early on in the industry in the movie in the script, you know, that makes us say Oh, that's a nice guy. You know, I like this person, you know, which will make me want to follow this person's journey for the rest of the movie

Alex Ferrari 7:25
Which would be the opposite of that would be kick the dog which would be my book, kick the dog how to be evil person.

It's a great way to introduce a villain

Right! You kill anybody who kicks a dog like that guy's bad so it's a perfect example Yeah, so that's where it comes from. Okay, great. So how did you get involved with save the cat?

You know it's funny I got involved with save the cat exactly the same way like everybody discovers save the cat which is I read the book. I didn't know Blake you know before the book came out but when I read the book, you know and I tell this to all you know people or writers I work with I'm a very lazy reader I'm sorry to say the book you know even was thick a save the cat man it's not really that thick. That's not it's not it's not a hard read. Yeah, it will usually a book that thick won't even take me something like a year to read.

Jose Silerio 8:15
You're really lazy, you're really lazy writer reader.

Save the cat, a Kenyatta Indeed, I sat down open page one couldn't put it down it just like he said it was a very easily but more than being an easily. I think it just it says, you know, you get it, right. The way you get the bag is talking about it, what the thing, the nice thing about it really, so sort of, for me, this is my reaction. It was very encouraging. It is really telling me that, you know, this is something that I can do and a lot of the things that I found myself like, Oh, no, as a screenwriter, like, I'm getting stuck here, you know, he was kind of explaining it and telling me you know, this is all you have to do. And that's how I got into save the cat, you know, read the book, you know, he had this email address there, which everybody knows have read the book. I wrote him, can you just ask him about other stuff and all that and then one day, he can tell immediately, not one day, but immediately he's going to ask me saying, hey, I need to help you with a script that we need to read. And if you can give me notes, you know, maybe we can build something together. And luckily,

you were at the right place at the right time. Exactly.

You know, the stars aligned for me kinda you know, so that's how I got into say the gap and it was like, way back in 2006 2007.

Alex Ferrari 9:24
Can't believe that's way back. Yeah.

Jose Silerio 9:28
10 years now.

Wow. So So can you explain to everybody what a beat sheet is? Because I remember the first time I was in an executive meeting, and someone goes so where's your beat sheet and I'm like, so you see the character does this. This is very similar to what Blake did. I'm like I just tried to keep going with it. But then afterwards, I found out what a beat sheet was. So can you explain to everybody what a beat sheet

is? Well, a BGA especially you know, we'd save the cat and a lot of, you know, a lot of other I guess, teachers producers, so every everybody has their own kind of definition for the beat sheets. Okay, so I'm gonna go with the save the cat definition, it's really as Blackboard you know, the beat sheet really has an end for us we have what we call the 15 beats, the 15 key beats and this what it does is the 15 beats of the beat sheet the same that the Blake Snyder beat sheet it just really pinpoints the 15 key beats that your hero must go through in order to tell a good story. These are moments that must be happening to your hero, right and your hero must be doing as well in order for us to be able to follow that structure that story in a way that's very familiar for for for for the audience. And again when I say familiar I'm not saying you know, you're just merely copying from other movies, other scripts or other books that you've read before. But you know, story structure is something that's been ingrained in all of us ever since you know from Nursery Rhymes like jokes there's always a structure and and that beats you know, those 15 beats is something that Blake sort of not only develop, but he even says this isn't all discovered but even not discovered but he just kind of made it clear for everybody gotcha gotcha. And he said and he having studied all these films that he felt like you know what really successful film really like he said you know, I this he discovered there were just 15 beats that were always present. And that's what you know, I guess a beat sheet is you know, you have this this 15 beats that go from in save the cat, terminologies go from opening image, all the way down to 15. The final image that, like I said earlier that we that your hero must go through So in short, I guess it's really like an outline, or, but really, it's a good way to really help you as a writer, figure out what's happening, and more importantly, when it should be happening to your hero,

right? It's kind of well, what I've taken from structure is because when I write I my structures pretty sound because I like structure I like having that those tent poles to be able to like write to so it's like okay, from here to this point to this point. This has to happen so how I get to point A to point B is up to me as the writer but I have a place to go without that structure you're just kind of like meandering all over the place.

Alex Ferrari 12:24
Exactly. I think it's what you said you know, the nice permit to use was temple which is exactly what Blake also mentioned that I think a lot of times and I say this all the time like when I went to film school way back when you know the writing screenwriting classes one to one The thing that really always got was okay there's act one act two and yeah right and they're like oh, that's very vague. You fill it in and that's what you know the the save the cat beat sheet of Blake the assessor at least in Act One you know what should be happening act one because right away you know which beats must be happening within the PAP and where again it's happening then same thing when you go to act two and act three

Jose Silerio 13:03
Yeah, it's it's pretty amazing there's a series on YouTube that has a they take the save the cat method and they beat it out with movies. It's wonderful to watch because you're like Back to the Future Ed, you know Terminator Titanic and you just start watching them and they literally are beating it out. So they're like here's this Pete This is when this happens in the movie this is when his happens in the movie and you just sit there and you use examples of it Can you give us a few examples of films that use save the cat very very well? hours the hours of the minute but just a couple of the big ones

Alex Ferrari 13:36
Yeah, even that big one guy like you know some of the Oscar winners like King's speech. Argo mean very clear and strong beats an Oscar nominated one which I really liked from two years ago was whiplash briefing again all the beats were there but the nice thing about you know this movies where you can see is that you know you can go there and I'm probably biased already by this night at this point right and done this for 10 years but right now I'm watching there and But still, right I try to avoid saying oh, there's the catalyst. Oh, there's the midpoint. Oh, it's

Jose Silerio 14:10
rough you know it's in Look, I'll tell you I've been in visual effects and post production for a long time. And you know, it's tough for me to go to a movie sometimes it's tough for me to kind of just let go and I just recently let go when I saw Star Wars so I completely was not looking at anything technical. I was just on the ride and it's for film to do that to you know, people like us that are really into it. It's at me that's a really good sign of the filmmaker who's been able to cut through all of our all of our armor, if you will, of biases like oh, that green screen didn't really look that great. Oh, oh, that story point. That's the catalyst. Oh, that's the turning point. And I catch myself doing that all the time now with with lesser movies, but like you

said, you know, the well made ones really are those where you forget what's there, but you don't see it.

Exactly oh you look back you go back to it later and watch it a second time and then you'll analyze it maybe in the second or third screening of it but the first time you just enjoy it and you know it's coming but you just kind of you're in the story as you should be.

exactly exactly and you know those are you know that they did their job well you know and like I said you know when we go back then we start realizing oh that's why you know we like this part because yes it was building up to the midpoint it's going down to the last and and all that

now did you have you seen new Star Wars? I have and how how's it how's it How's it hanging in this in the saving the cat paradise

Alex Ferrari 15:36
thanks very well in terms of the beat sheet itself of having the beats there in the way they introduce the characters of the setup you know, the setup,

no spoilers, no spoilers.

Yeah. Very careful. You know, even you know, the big moment the big all is lost moment. I think, you know, even though I'm not gonna say it out loud. I think I know you would definitely you know what I'm talking horse? Of course, of course. Right. So, you know, even though we don't specifics, we know that that beat was there. Till your third act, right, you know, what, the third app? Yes. And it did the beats are still there. So yeah, I think I would love to say that, you know, yeah, of course, JJ Abrams, and never wrote read save the cat before. Yeah, of course, I think. But, you know, I think great filmmakers, great writers, they just know, you know,

well, the thing is, if you look at all the big movies, the most successful movies, whether they be blockbusters or Oscar winners, generally they all follow the beat, they all follow the the structure, whether whether and I think what Blake did so well with save the cat is that screenwriting is a complex scenario, it's not an easy way to write, it's much easier to write in many ways a modern novel because you can Miranda and you can kind of just delve into the deepness of how the the tree looks today and you can't do that in the screenplay has to be very condensed has to be very concise every word is has to have a meaning and move the story forward. And I think what Blake did so brilliantly is that he brought it down to the masses where a lot of that kind of terminology was more upper tier if you will like at the you know at a at a film school or at the higher end like UCLA, you know, screenwriting programmer, these kind of really epic big huge institutions that were kind of like guarding the information and Blake kind of took that information and said now you all may have it and now here here now go and rights be well

Jose Silerio 17:36
I agree with you on that yeah there's definitely you know if you kind of go the the Joseph Campbell route of course which is very again there's nothing wrong but it's a great system as well but like you said, you know, when when Blake would save the cat he kind of brought it down to the masses those who weren't kind of more into mythological stuff but just wanted to set up this goes straight into well

Alex Ferrari 17:55
I mean the right idea what the writers journey was or what the hero's journey is it works well obviously with save the cat it's it's it's there but it's it's different it's a little bit not as simple like save the cat is as simple as you can get like if you're a screenwriter starting out, read save the cat then go off and read everything else but save the cat is a great base to start from because and that's again one of the reasons I wanted you guys on the show because the book was so influential, and then you can go off and read a million 1000 books. There's a nice

Jose Silerio 18:31
thing about that though, is that you know, Blake really started in roadsafe The gap is for writers really more than anybody for writers to help them move forward with their own writing and they feel like they're stuck and kind of go but it's also a great way to analyze movies oh god yes and figure out you know why they're working

Alex Ferrari 18:49
that's why he wrote that second book right the the exact the cat goes to the movies right? Exactly. Which was great. It was a wonderful example to kind of go in he's just started breaking down the movies. And you just like oh my god, I remember the first time I discussed with the first book I ever read was Sid fields. That was when I wasn't now I'm going way back this is like the 90s so and when I discovered that there was a structure because he was the first one I ever heard any kind of structure. Yeah, and I was like wait a minute, at 15 minutes this happens and I can't stand that I just started going back to all my movies. I'm like, oh my god this and I thought I'd cracked the code. It's like it was like it was so revolutionary to me. For someone who doesn't understand it doesn't know about it. It's so great. But again, let's say the cat does so well is it simplifies it so beautifully. And it's I don't want to say it's like right by numbers because there's a lot of creativity involved. But it gives you those 10 poles that you can just make it's a lot easier. You don't have to think about structure. You can you could just decorate the house, you'd have to worry about the foundation.

Jose Silerio 19:50
Exactly. I think that's the best way to put it. Because there is always an eight always stuff about it. But the serious you know there are always those the detractors who come to say disappointed by them. First thing and I think it when people say that they're not getting the whole picture because we're just talking about structure, you know, your your character traits,

Alex Ferrari 20:10
they're not a log everything exactly, it's

Jose Silerio 20:13
on the writer right and that's for you to make your characters unique and once you add that then it becomes a totally different story but you have the structure there already.

Alex Ferrari 20:22
Yeah, absolutely. It's like I said before, it's like literally you could you could have a house with a complete foundation and structure done. Now how that's decorated, it could be be accurate in a million different ways. It's all depending on how the writer wants to, to go forward. So a lot of screenwriters to always hear about coverage like oh, well can I get coverage and I got bad coverage, I got good coverage and your script needs coverage from a studio or production company. Can you explain a little bit about coverage to those who don't know in the audience? Well, I

Jose Silerio 20:51
think like you said, you know, coverage really is more of like, you know, you have the reader obviously, you have the higher ups who can't read all the scripts that go through their studios, so they need the cliff notes version scripts that come in, and I think that's that, to me, that's kind of what coverages you have the readers who who read it, and they put their notes down on the script that they read, kind of go into structure characters dialogue, you know, giving it it's sort of last and you know, different students have different styles, different methods, but it can be they have kind of a point system and they point they graded graded accordingly. And that's you know, I think that's the simple way of just describing what coverage is that now that piece of paper and hopefully, for most it's a one pager right? That goes not to the next Junior executive

Alex Ferrari 21:43
if it passes if it passes because they might they might have

Jose Silerio 21:46
exactly right it passes and goes to them they read the script and they they do their own version of the next higher up coverage it goes to the next higher up guy so that's you know, I think that's a simple like I said a simple version of explaining with Cobra GS it's really a cover letter you know for for for the script. Can you just telling us what the script is we're telling the the executive what what this group is all about and what what in what and how it meets certain criteria for them

Alex Ferrari 22:12
Now the thing is that as a as a screenwriter and I've gone through the coverage processes in the studio system it's very frustrating because sometimes you might not get the reader that you that's really gets it and a lot of people have passed on Oscar winners, you know in coverage and it happens and that's very frustrating a lot of times because you're like oh my god i like i forgot there's some legendary ones. I just don't remember any of them off the top of my head but that guy passes at certain studios will Star Wars was passed everywhere. I mean, just the original Star Wars was like what Yeah, you know,

Jose Silerio 22:46
that's very true. Yeah. Bigger producers going to like I don't think you know, they don't didn't get it.

Alex Ferrari 22:52
They don't they don't get it. So in the script was like, Oh, what's this? What's this? This giant monkey? Who's walking around with this guy? And he's his sister. What? No, forget there's incest involved. This is horrible. So yeah. So it has to do like

Jose Silerio 23:08
you said, you know, if there is it's sort involved in it, that your script gets to the right person at the right time. Yeah. So that they, you know, they that to ever the reader is that they're reading it in the right frame of mind in order to get it and be in, hopefully be objective enough. While while reading it.

Alex Ferrari 23:30
I think also one thing that I've learned in my my journeys and from talking to so many different screenwriters is and recover and producers and executives is that at a certain point, you have to even if they might pass on it, you have to write something so good, that even though you know i don't get it, but man, this is really well written. And there's a lot of that, like, this is not going to be made into movie, but you're a good writer. And I think that's what writers should do as best they can try to make the best thing as Steve Martin says, be so good that they can't ignore you.

Jose Silerio 24:03
Yeah, and I completely agree with that. And and, you know, this is what I always tell writers, especially those who say, okay, what's the secret to sort of breaking in? And I think the release isn't the secret. The secret is you come up with a really great script.

Alex Ferrari 24:17
script, oddly enough.

Jose Silerio 24:19
Yeah. And because it's then I truly believe this because I've heard it from a lot of executives from producers themselves. And they say, you know, the industry really is, you know, they're one thing for the great, the next great script, right? So the moment you have a great script that goes out, you know, it's going to, it's going to catch fire. It's going to spread on its own. It's because of you know what, once somebody says, there's a great script out there, everybody starts looking for it. And I think that's really sort of the secret to this breaking in but you have to do again, your homework, you have to show them like you were saying earlier, right? But as a writer, you have to show this people the readers or producers, that they know how to write the story. Know what it takes to be able to be to be a good storyteller?

Alex Ferrari 25:03
Yeah, I know a lot of writers who put in a script and they said, this is not going to work for us. But I want to hire you for another job because you can write. Yeah, and that happens all the time. And I know a lot of screenwriters who make a living, never being produced. Yeah, they just keep optioning or they're working or their script doctoring. And they've never had a single credit to their name. Yeah, but they've made millions doing this and behind the scenes, there's many guys who do this in Hollywood

Jose Silerio 25:32
and there's even a lot of those who not just option out you know, their scripts even though the script the single made what they get hired to rewrite again, you know, other scripts, again without being credited for it. You know, that's, that's a great job to have

Alex Ferrari 25:48
it to certain I guess, after you've made your first two or 3 million doing that, at a certain point, you just want to go you know, I wouldn't mind getting something made. Yeah, you know, but I wish I had these problems. I don't know about you, but I wish I had that like you know, I've already made my 3 million this year. So I really would you know,

Jose Silerio 26:08
they're not gonna just play around they may just play around you know, let's just follow the passion project and

Alex Ferrari 26:13
finally violin make that passion project I've been watching about that one legged hooker. And in, in, in New York, the Puerto Rican hooker who really wants to dance, but she only has one leg. It's a Sunday. It's winter. I

Jose Silerio 26:24
can tell you she has a heart of gold

Alex Ferrari 26:27
as Yes, yes. I tell you every time I hear I always tell people that that story that like Echo, you want to get into Sundance, make a movie about a handicapped one legged Puerto Rican hooker with a heart of gold who really wants to dance but is beaten by her father, her drunken Father, you know, who also happens to be a transgender I'm just saying that alone would win Sundance every year guaranteed. And, but you have to follow the 15 beats If not, it doesn't work.

Jose Silerio 27:00
doesn't work at all.

Alex Ferrari 27:03
So um, a lot of also with screenwriters, a lot of emphasis is put on the logline. And I know you guys talk a lot about loglines. Can you give a little bit of advice on how to construct a really great logline and explain what a logline is to people who don't know?

Jose Silerio 27:17
Well I think there's a lot going to be I'll be honest, a lot of FM is always the trickiest thing to write through. And I and I always tell this the writer so I, you know, Blake talks about it in the book in the save the cat that his process was, you know, you write the logline, one of the first things he did was write the logline right before beating it out. And and that's great, because it gives you a good idea of what your story is. But that particular login that you write, the first log line you write is most probably also not going to be the same log line, the same story, you know, that eventually what the script will be, right? Because it as you start to write in writing, things will start changing, you start discovering more about you know, your characters and stores will change. So there is a log line that I think it's great to have early on to keep sort of on track as to what your story what do you think your story is, or what you envision it to be, and, but there is also the log line at the very end that really captures the real story. And you have to know the difference in US writers, but permit us of what what regardless of which particular logline you're writing on the early on or the one that you really want to stand out ready the things that they look for are always going to be which you know, in this basic screenwriting one to one but they call them the big three, which is you know, it has to be able to clearly convey historic belongs to which is the hero number one, you know what the hero wants, meaning the goal and what's stopping the hero from getting the wand you know, what, what's the problem. So the hero the goal, and the problem for me are the big three. And I think that has to be very, very clear in a logline to make it really compelling and this isn't, you know, if this is like a one or two out of three, you have to make sure it's a three out of three thing. If not you have no story. And if that's not there in the logline, then your logline won't have a story. So it's very important to able to make sure that all the three elements have it in in in your logline that you have it in your logline. Another thing that I that I like which Blakely pointed out in the book is having a sense of irony in in the logline. And you know in in that what that really means is that I think what you want to show is that why is this hero, right? The person to go on this journey. So you'll want to be able to build up even in your logline. Right? That why this particular hero is going to be the hero. Why is he going to why is this journey going to be the hardest thing that this year is going to be? So it's really building that up because what you're really telling us is that of all the people that I this is not the right person to do it right? This is not the right person to go on this journey but that's what makes it compelling diehard Dyer exactly right? Yeah. If you end up always having you know, Mr. Universe go up against you know, the big evil you know this right but you know

Alex Ferrari 30:20
that's good that's commando that's coming

Jose Silerio 30:24
Steven Seagal is gonna be the end of the day

Alex Ferrari 30:28
right? I just there's no real there's never a chance like you know maybe Stephen might not want no he's gonna

Jose Silerio 30:35
write me no no then but that's that that works for who he is right and the the characters that the theater plays but again for the rest of you who are not writing, you know action type movies or commando type movies, right you have to find a way to tell us to make sure that you know just by reading the logline, a one sentence, you know, line that we understand we make we understand what the story is. But more importantly is that it's a very compelling story. And again, by doing that it's again giving us a sense of irony in the sense that it's you know, you're you're introducing us to a character who is not supposed to be going on this journey. Right.

Alex Ferrari 31:15
Go ahead. Sorry, go ahead. No, no, you brought up a really good point I wanted to kind of focus on real quick that the irony of a character that he's not supposed to he she's not supposed to be the one on the journey. Ripley from aliens comes to mind, you know, Sarah Connor, Senator Sarah Connor from Terminator. diehard john McClane, the lethal weapon boys like there's no reason for them to, you know, work. And they do what? Star Wars right? And Star Wars The young farm boy who's going up against the Empire?

Jose Silerio 31:49
Exactly. That's that's what think speech robot? Yes. The Word became just starters. Right? Right.

Alex Ferrari 31:57
Exactly. Like he has no real like, and that's and it's something as simple as that. Like, it's not a big huge action thing. It's about a guy who stutters who cast the not stutter, and he has to inspire a nation. Like that's, that's a simple concept. It's not it's not brain surgery. But then I started when you brought that up, I started going I just went back through my mental Rolodex of movies. And I'm like, you know a lot of those 80s action movies like commando like every john Claude Van Damme movie like every Steven Seagal movie and bad action movies. There isn't that a bad action movie? And don't get me i'd love all those movies because you know, I was young when I saw them and I love them. And there's character and charismatic things about Arnold and about you know, Sylvester Stallone and all those things in those certain kind of movies. But the movies that really stand the test of time like you could I just watch Die Hard again, because it's my Christmas movie I always watched because I don't care what anyone says. It's the best Christmas movie of all time. I don't I don't care what anyone says. Oh, yes. has no if you don't see Hans Gruber falling out of a falling out of a window at the end of the day. It's not really Christmas for me. So that's just me. Whoa, whoa, whoa. So um, but I just literally saw it like a few weeks ago. And I was like, I can't believe how wonderful and how brilliantly it's done. And it literally that movie alone spawned hundreds of ripoffs like Die Hard in a boat, Die Hard in the train, Die Hard in the plane, that all this kind of stuff. It was such a brilliant and Pinnacle movie, but it's that what you were talking about. It's the ironic irony of that character who has no business doing that predator is another one. Like, even though Arnold and this entire team are big muscle bound, but they're up against something that's they have no business. They can't be. And that's what makes a good, really, really good compelling story. And I think that's where a lot of writers especially have bad action movies. Really could learn something from please, please

Jose Silerio 33:56
I think that's a die hard is a great example because, you know, in the 80s you know, we were used to seeing all the Schwarzenegger movie right? They know the Rambo Stallone movies. They're all like this muscle Bodley, you know, and suddenly we interview we'll get introduced to john McClane. It's not really the tone of it.

Alex Ferrari 34:16
No, he's a normal dude. He's dude, he's in his locker,

Jose Silerio 34:20
and he's about to get a divorce. Right? by the state together.

Alex Ferrari 34:25
He's a New Yorker in LA, which Trust me, I understand.

Jose Silerio 34:29
I think you know, it's significant. He's totally different guy who gets thrown into, you know, in a bigger than life scenario.

Alex Ferrari 34:40
Yeah, absolutely. And then the brilliance of the you know, the barefoot and the bleeding and I it's like, it's just so brilliantly crafted. I don't know I forgot the name of the screenwriter of that one. But it's so brilliantly crafted, so brilliantly directed, and it holds, even though it's 80s. And you can you know, It's so fun to watch because of you know, all the ad stuff in it. But it's so Britt Robocop another one of those absolutely brilliant, like, there's no reason for that hero to be able to do what he does, and go through what he's going through. So that's a great I've never heard anyone say that. But the irony of the character, or the hero is something that should be very important in your writing process.

Jose Silerio 35:24
I think so because again, it's, there's not that sense of irony, meaning that your hero is not the right person, or shouldn't be the person to be going against this problem or having this goal, right. So right there, you'll find out easily that you'll end the write up stop writing by page 30. Because you're unable to generate more conflict for your hero, right? You lose right with a sense of tension. Because your hero you haven't as we like to sing, save the cat, you haven't taken your hero as far back as possible. Right? So if they're already a great superhero in the first app, right, then again, whatever you throw out in front of them the second that is something that they can easily overcome. And once that happens, you know your story ends at page 30

Alex Ferrari 36:09
that's I think one of the main problems with most Superman movies or even telling the Superman story it's so difficult to create conflict for a god and it's except for the very first one that Richard Donner did and he did it so magically it's like every and we've all been everyone's been trying to get back to that but it's tough to create conflict like the Batman that's why Batman works better than Superman because Batman is a dude who Yeah, he's a billionaire and he has stuff but he can get hurt he can get blood he can get his back broken he can do all this stuff

Jose Silerio 36:43
and his backstory is so much more complex he was orphaned his parents were killed he saw them get killed

Alex Ferrari 36:50
you know it's so much so much Meteor.

Jose Silerio 36:53
Exactly you know it's not just a physical story but really more of the emotional story is what's what's pulls us in

Alex Ferrari 36:59
so I'm really curious to see how this Batman vs Superman yeah fiasco I think it's going to be a fiasco that's just me but I just my personal opinion I looked at the trailer the other day I'm now we're going off topic here. But I saw the trailer the other day and I was just like wow, I don't know if this is gonna work I hope it does. I'm a fan but you know, but then I saw Captain I saw that Captain America Civil War I'm like, this is brilliant. You've got to like look at the conflict in that it's like that. It's the ultimate conflict of friends that we've grown up with if your people seen through these movies, and now they're fighting for ideologies, it's just like, brilliant. Brilliant. I'm sorry, I've gone off on a tangent on superhero movies. I apologize. So um, so what are some of the biggest mistakes you see with screenwriter screenplays? When you read them from like first time writers or just screenplays in general?

Jose Silerio 37:56
I think especially especially you know for us and I would say that we get a lot of for the first time screenwriters even though when they say first time you know it's those within several months haven't really sold anything yet. And one thing I've noticed of play is that a lot of screenwriters tend to write off write a character that's based off another character that they saw in a movie

Alex Ferrari 38:22
really you see are you still seeing a lot of

Jose Silerio 38:24
that Yeah, it is. And it's like we're talking about Die Hard right right. Oh God I die hard in the plane I heard in the train here I didn't know she had sudden

Alex Ferrari 38:33
Sudden Impact Don't forget that one john climb on top of a die hard in a ice rink

Jose Silerio 38:38
so there's a lot of builders I think a lot of people kind of do that still you know I want to make the next taken I want to make

Alex Ferrari 38:45
no there's a there was a after taking came out there I must have been 1000 taken scripts make made

Jose Silerio 38:51
Yeah, right. Or after bridesmaids came up I want to make the next bridesmaid or the hangover right after having overcome I want to make the next time over. So the writing characters writing stories based off other characters have been seen already or that they simply know from watching right from from the film, it's not characters that they really know, in real life. Right? And I think that that's one miss the one big mistake. screenwriters new especially the newer ones do nowadays is that, you know, they start writing off, you know, characters at Oh, this is what john McClane would do. But again, you're not writing john McClane anymore and you have to find you know, in your own writing again, we mentioned this earlier, um, coming up with your own voice what we know what makes you unique as a writer, you have to be able to find you know, that the what makes your characters unique as well. And that's really by you know, right you writing characters based off people you know in real life. Right? You know, that crazy art but you have you know, or you know, absolutely the body, you have from high schools now Your mother is really successful, but in a bad marriage, but there are a lot of things that you can pull out for your people who surround this baby. Right? And I think, you know, that makes it more interesting because now we start seeing people who we know you know can be a little bit more complex who may not necessarily go left when we think everybody's going left you know, what, what makes them different. And I think that's something that newer writers need to learn more how to build better characters.

Alex Ferrari 40:30
I think also what you're saying is advice for every aspect of filmmaking in the sense of Be yourself and stop trying to be someone else whether that be a writer whether that be a director, like I'm gonna be the next Quinn Tarantino I'm like, No, you're not. You can't be because there's only one Quentin Tarantino there's only one Scorsese there's only one Shane Black. Yeah, no, there's don't I mean, I mean, how many people try to rip off Shane Black? After lethal weapon. And after, like, everyone tried to write like, Shane? Yeah, when he was making dough, in the olden days, when everyone was making $2 million, a spec script, you know, sales that don't happen nowadays. But if you just true Be true to them, because if you notice, all of those guys, all of those guys are original. They're all they're all being themselves. Yeah.

Jose Silerio 41:18
They were in their original voice came out 1020 years ago. Right? It worked for them. So now it's time for the newer writers who want to break into to find what is your original voice for today's time?

Alex Ferrari 41:32
Right? Because things that worked 20 years ago will not work today. Yeah. And that's that's a huge and that's when screenwriting and filmmaking is a general statement. A lot of people keep going at it from that point of view of like, I'm going to do what Chamberlain like no, don't know. It's a different place different world today.

Jose Silerio 41:49
So I think if I may, yes, please have time. But another, I think, common mistake that writers have, your writers have an artist is a simply over writing. Especially when it comes to the description and the action part of any we're not, it may not necessarily be an action movie. But you know, when they start describing the action of government that's going on, you know, they describe it to a, you know, the most minute

Alex Ferrari 42:15
or they write it like a novelist like, or even

Jose Silerio 42:17
write it to describe a character, they over describe it. And I think what this does is, especially for me, as I'm reading it, it takes away a sense of creativity on my end, because now you're making me think very specifically, of an action of a person. And that in a way kind of takes away from the read. Because now My mind is again, and this is something readers I mean, I'm sorry, writers have to realize is that your first audience is not the person who buys that movie ticket. Your first audience is the reader, right? And you have to know that you know, they don't have the benefit of music, they don't have the benefit of actual faces of actors, then they can follow. So reading a page is a little bit harder, they have to work a little bit harder in order to follow the story. So don't overdo it. Right? But But prove by putting in too much detail by making it too, you know, too specific, that you know that your own that the reader themselves that aren't losing that, that ability to build the world on their own and get more into it. I think if as readers, if we're given that opportunity to build the world, a little bit on our own as well, following reading the story, then it becomes more interesting and becomes more exciting.

Alex Ferrari 43:33
You know, I was the other day, I was reading a script that was sent to me by a professional writer, like a real, you know, with credits with everything for a project. And when I read it, I had been reading so many bad scripts, that when I read this one, I was like, Oh, this is what a writer is like, it was so the structure was was spot on. Every word was like and I was analyzing it was I was reading it because I was just so taken by like, oh, okay, so he condensed everything right? He didn't overwrite everything. He left it open for your interpretation. But yeah, gave you just enough. If there's that fine balance when you're writing like that, and it was just so wonderful to watch to read. It was a joy to read as opposed to reading, you know, 98% of scripts. Yeah. Which is, which is rough.

Jose Silerio 44:27
Yeah, no, I I've had those moments. Right. From a professional. Right, right. And it's like, before, you know what you read in page 90.

Alex Ferrari 44:37
Right? Exactly. And you're a slow reader.

Jose Silerio 44:42
Until I know, this is a good one.

Alex Ferrari 44:44
This is a good and I think that's also advice for readers like people who are trying to get readers to get coverage and stuff like that they will notice because they've read so much crap all the time that when something of quality walks through the door, whether they like the matter The subject matter or not, they'll recognize talent in the writing. And it's in a come in in a blares out it like that just it screams at you. Because, you know, it's not like you're in a bunch of William Goldman's scripts. And Shane Black scripts and Tarantino scripts are all tossed in, you're like, oh, who's really good? No, it's like a bunch of crap. And then you get that one piece of gold that comes in every once in a while. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. So, so I was fascinated when I was doing a little research for this interview, I found out that save the cat has some software. Yes. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I was kind of exciting. Yeah, we

Jose Silerio 45:46
actually do have a software and the nice thing about the software, it really follows the save the cat method.

Alex Ferrari 45:51
Oddly enough,

Jose Silerio 45:52
I said, too late out, I guess what I should have said, laid out in the book in the first book today Blake kind of goes through it step by step, right? So So even in the software, it kind of forces you if they may use that word, it kind of forces you first to come up with, you know, what's the genre that you want to pick for this story, you know, then it tells you to do the logline. Right. And then but you're not able to jump right away into the beat sheet, or the board, you know, unless you go through it step by step first. And but the nice thing about it is that if you do follow the steps coming up with logline, then only with a logline, you'll be able to go into the beat sheet. Once you have your beat sheet, that's only when you're able to go into the board, you know. So it has all the elements of what makes the same the cap method. And what they said it kind of forces you to go through it step by step. I think that's the nice thing about it, because it really helps you think and not just, I know there's arthritis, we're always eager to jump the page one and fade in, right. But it but that can also always get us into trouble right away, there is you know, you take the time, the first thing about the idea first, the premise and the stories are fleeting thoughts that will be the outlines and building structure before you actually go to page one. And that's that that's that's what I think this software is good at. It helps you sort of focus little by little step by step, that when by the time you do get to page one fade in, you know you've done the hard work already, right? Like I said, it follows all the rules of save the cat, it takes you to the beat sheet, it takes you to the board, the 40 cards board and you can see it all laid out in front of you in your screen

Alex Ferrari 47:35
now Can you can you explain I was gonna ask Can you explain what the board is? Because a lot of people might not know what the board is. I love using the board when I when I write it's so helpful. So can you explain it because there's the software version, then you're obviously taking it from a real life version, like actual board and stuff. So can you explain what that is?

Jose Silerio 47:52
Yeah, and it's same thing, you know, when when, first my introduction to the board also came from Blake, and how we how we explain it is that, you know, he walked into a producer's room. And oddly enough, same thing happened to me a few years after he told me about it was the end he sees, you know, it's corkboard in front of him where your little index cards laid out. And what the test is, you know, it saved the cat, how we have it is that you have a big letters, cork board, or whiteboard, or whatever it is you're writing, you break that board into four rows, each row representing an app, well, but you're gonna say okay, but there's four rows. So why 4x? Well, it's x 1x, two, a x to be an x three. And in each row, you have, we have 10 cards, and each card really is a scene or a sequence. Not meaning that again, it's always you can start what's you're doing really here now with the board, surely, you are writing, right, and you're working on scenes already, you're doing scene structure work already here. And it allows you to sort of the follow your hero, in terms of its plot in terms of its emotional story. Throughout, you know, you're able to lay out scenes and see if it's working in Act One, or in Act Two, you know, if it's not, you can move them around. But the nice thing about it is that again, you're able just in a very visual, immediate sense. Just by looking at the board, you're able to look at it right away and see how the story is playing out. You can see where the characters are moving forward. You know, you can even I think one thing I always emphasize with writers, so when they do the boards, make sure you're also able to follow the emotional story in the board. You know, one thing we like talking about in save the cat is having the base story. And what the beast story is, is for those who are familiar with it, what it represents, it's really just the theme of the story. Right? So what what they don't do

Alex Ferrari 49:52
is that it's at that subplot or is that the B is that is a subplot or is that

Jose Silerio 49:56
a subplot? It's the emotional story got it. That the Yeah that you that you're stoked that you're here almost go so

Alex Ferrari 50:02
then tight. So what's the emotional story of Titanic just so people have a reference?

Jose Silerio 50:06
Well, let's say for rose, right? The physical story is, I'm going to get married to what's his name? Billy Zane. Right, Billy is the emotional story for her is that she has to be able to tell her mom, I'm not gonna do what you're telling me anymore. And she wants to be my own person. Right? Right. And that's what jack? What's his name? Leonardo. The capital teaches her

Alex Ferrari 50:27
because she's she's, she is the character she is the main character.

Jose Silerio 50:31
I agree with you. He is the main character. And that's what it likes it Leo does for he's the one who forces her to learn the lesson to learn the theme of the story in order to be her own person.

Alex Ferrari 50:42
So in other words, it's not a subplot. But like exactly like the outside the the obvious thing is like, I'm gonna marry this guy, and I'm going on this boat. Yeah, what the emotion about what the intention of her character is this, what she's going after, this is the the inner struggle or the inner journey, the inner journey,

Jose Silerio 51:02
it's the inner journey, it's the internal story, got it. with Luke Skywalker, the external was picked on the Death Star, right, the internal, so he needs to learn to be a Jedi to believe and to trust to trust, and even. So that's what you know. So going back now to the board when it does right there. So you can mark this cards, you know, whether you use color, or whatever it is, it's the market, you know, let's say blue is going to be external story. Red is going to be internal story. It's a simple that that you can put on each card, and then you can see where you're playing out the emotional story as well. So I think the board is, like I said, hopefully I'm explaining it well enough. Now, yeah, that you're able to see right away just by standing in front of it. You know, what you have, where the story's going, where your hero is going, you know, how you're playing out the physical and the emotional story throughout. But it's also you know, it's same see if you do it now, meaning, you know, if you do get the board right away before you start writing pages, if you see like a certain sequence is not working, like in the middle of second app, then you can either take it out, put it away for another day, or maybe you say after, you know, this sequence might work better in Act One. But you can do it right away. You're supposed to doing it later, or after six months or nine months of having written a first draft, but instead to say, wait a minute, page 50 to 55 wasn't working. But you know, I should have known that nine months ago. Right? Right, and save myself the time. Right? So that's the beauty of what the board

Alex Ferrari 52:34
is now this in the software, do you have that option for the dots? Yes, you do. Oh, great.

Jose Silerio 52:41
You know, again, get the all of that we won't have time, but there are little places where you can assign color to it. Perfect. Sounds wonderful. And it's just a simple thing, but even assigning color to characters. I think it's a wonderful little trick. You know, if, let's say green is going to be my villain. But if you're looking at your board, and your entire second row has no green in it, then you know you're in trouble. Because you don't have a villain in it. And the villain is the source of conflict.

Alex Ferrari 53:08
That would be that would be the first Twilight movie. The worst films I've ever seen. I don't care what anyone says. Who's horrendous. The villain shows up 20 minutes. I don't care spoiling it. 20 minutes at the end. I'm like, Are you kidding me? Are you kidding? The first hour and 20 minutes just have them pining for each other. It washorrendous. horrendous

Jose Silerio 53:32
There you go. See if they had the board.

Alex Ferrari 53:34
They had what? Like look, they made a couple bucks on that. So what do we know? But they but it's not definitely not being studied by screenwriters. For their for their structure, a story narrative character or directing. But I'm sorry again, I apologize. I just couldn't like when you said that. I'm like yes, no villain. I that's the first movie that came to them. Like, because look what happens in Star Wars first, like three, four minutes of the movie? Yeah, the best the best opening of a villain arguably ever and everybody and that was a wonderful thing about that film is that I've read I've listened to I've probably seen every interview with George Lucas ever about that movie about Star Wars and he said that no matter where you were in the world, even if you had no idea who Darth Vader was you knew and you didn't speak English Yeah, you knew that was the bad guy. Yeah that was that's the brilliance and universal appeal of of those movies is like you knew and it did that thing with Kylo Ren as well that and the way they've designed his mask and it was all very strategic to portray a villain instantly. Yeah, it's

Jose Silerio 54:47
another great example if I made is you know which which again was one of my favorites was whiplash which I mentioned. Cyber the way they introduced the first two minutes. For me, it just Just as good as introducing Darth Vader

Alex Ferrari 55:02
I mean I'll tell you what when I watched that movie it was it was hard to watch that's a movie that's hard to watch a little bit because he's so brilliant at being just just horrible human. Yeah, exactly he's so brilliant at it that it just I felt like I'm like just leave man just it's not worth it man just go don't play the damn drums anymore Just go

Jose Silerio 55:28
get rewatch but we know you're gonna want to walk away

Alex Ferrari 55:31
but you know what's brilliant is and he deserved the Oscar without question because he carries that movie does the whole movie is him as I may know he's not the main character but he is so overpowering as the actor and the character is so overpowering. That without him there's so much he's he's the Empire. He is here and this poor kid is Luke and it's like, but that's if Darth Vader was yelling at Luke throwing symbols at its

Jose Silerio 56:01
chair with the force

Alex Ferrari 56:02
yes just throwing the force like come on Luke three beats three beats with the lightsaber Come on. Now and you also have an app right to save the cat app is that different than the software?

Jose Silerio 56:18
No, it's it's it's it's it's the same but and again, like you said it's an app it's for your laptop, it's for your iPhone, or your iPad or Android. I'm have to be clear and I'm not sure about that. But I know you can work on your iPhone but it helps you go through the same thing it's sort of like a miniature version of what you can get on your laptop or your computer got it but it's the same thing it helps you go through again your logline and then the beats and then you can even do the cards here but each card will be like one because it is just an iPhone

Alex Ferrari 56:53
like wild card it doesn't give

Jose Silerio 56:54
you the slot you can play around it you can you can get what's the word play between the app and the software I think you can link it if I if I have that right okay so what you have in there in your app we can go from the cloud and you know write about in your in your in your computer

Alex Ferrari 57:11
and if you're at Starbucks writing your your script and you have an idea real quick and you don't have your laptop yeah pop it into your iPad or iPhone because I was I was talking to another Screenwriter The other day is like people here in LA if people outside of La don't understand that if you walk into a Starbucks there's at least two people writing a screenplay at Starbucks in Los Angeles at any time of the day Yeah,

Jose Silerio 57:33
exactly.

Alex Ferrari 57:34
Exactly never fails never never fails so I'm I'm now comes to the part of the show that is the toughest questions I ask all my all my guests so are you are you ready

Jose Silerio 57:44
sir? All right, I hope so. Okay,

Alex Ferrari 57:47
and what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether that be in the film business or in life in general

Jose Silerio 57:53
Ah, you know what? This for me it's it's the discipline of writing this for me personally I think it's something also the you know a lot of writers struggle with it is especially those who want to make writing their career job

Alex Ferrari 58:11
it's time that white page that white page is a mountain

Jose Silerio 58:13
yeah and but it is really just simply finding the time day in and they are yeah to say I'm going to ride literatures for 10 minutes 30 minutes yep one are you are a page a day because it's so easy to get caught up with him especially except for those the newer ones especially those who have a day job it's it you can easily get caught up in other things and before you know it a week has passed you haven't written a single page before you know it's two months ready. Right? You haven't written 10 pages. So it is it's not necessarily a lesson right? But this being able to spring to discipline yourself and say that I will be writing today and again, for me it's you have to put a goal a daily goal that is that is attainable. for for for you. So you know, I know other writers who do like a page a day. I know who someone who does six pages a day we just stuff I tried doing six pages a day. It's it's sounds a lot easier than London. Yes. But once you do it, it's tough. But you have to find a system that works for you that makes it like I said, attainable each and every day. So whether you go by page count or by minute count, you have to do it and if it means having to wake up a little earlier or tell your kids at the end of the day you know story that is playing right now on its own Yes, exactly. Oh man that you have to you have to do it. And I think if anything, it's just that you have to keep writing if you want really be a good writer, and I tell this to all writers, you just have to write it's it's not just writing but also reading scripts. Not necessarily just watching movies, just watching movies is nice, but lead scripts Well, you know, and you have to find a way to put that into your schedule as well. Yeah, that's certainly the best lesson for for one, to become a not just a good writer but to be really a working writer.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:14
You know, the, if I if I may quote Woody Allen 90% of success is just showing up. Very true it's and it's true that consistency of showing up every day and doing the work even if it's five minutes, even if it's 10 minutes, but it's that everyday thing and that's what people get heart like if you can get into that routine of just doing it every day little by little and trust me I know that even even Academy Award winning writers have problems Yeah, writing it like they're just like, oh god, I gotta go and write you know, it's like it's it's writing is one of the most laborious processes on the planet and it's one of the most underappreciated parts of the industry without question because without a great script, there is no movies and it's it is rough so that's a great great piece of advice. Now what are your top three favorite films of all time?

Jose Silerio 1:01:07
Oh, man, that's I think this is even the tougher question Yes, yes, yes, this big three All right. One would be I think the safe answer, but I really loved it and it's one of those movies I keep watching over and over again. Is Shawshank Redemption of course.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:19
Of course it's one of my top three as well why Twilight obviously too but no no Shawshank knows second a close second was Twilight No. No Shawshank is it's it's amazing it's it's it's it's honestly To me it's as perfect of a movie as you can get it for me because it's my generations godfather

Jose Silerio 1:01:39
through Yeah, very very true. I think Same thing with me. You know, it's one of the reason why I love it so much is because it really it kind of breaks so many rules, but it all works. Yep. Right? It's all a cool story to read. Is it Andy's? Right? What? You're going to go there at the end of the movie, you're just like, Who cares?

Alex Ferrari 1:01:58
So I was gonna say like, whose story and like now you when he was asked me that my whose story is it? Is it it is? Is it rent? Yeah, I think it's, I think it's read maybe because he's the narrator.

Jose Silerio 1:02:10
Because he's the news. In terms of and again, for me, it's always like who had the biggest change? Right? And it's, and it's read. Yeah. You read his story, although you would think a lot of the action or out of the action being instigated was being instigated by by Andy.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:26
But Andy, but Andy didn't make that large of a change not not as big as he was just doing what he does. Yeah, exactly. But read from the moment you see and you actually see them in different temples of the movie when that whole interview with the with the board the parole board. Yeah, how he changes and you can literally I mean that he really lays it out for you Frank Darabont does, and it's absolutely brilliant. And another one of his movies Green Mile, I love Love, love, love green mo so go ahead sorry

Jose Silerio 1:02:57
about Shawshank again I think that's number one for me yeah um another one to I guess again there's no really order of course. One of the most perfect scripts I've read in the movie as well came out really really nicely. was a Little Miss Sunshine such a

Alex Ferrari 1:03:14
really good movie it's such a brilliant movie

Jose Silerio 1:03:16
I I tell you an evening I met Elvis oh right this when I read the script, I said it as as perfect as I could get reading a script. Yeah, it's, it's tight. It's a tight vibe. And you're following all these characters again, one of those that you know Michael Arndt did a great job is building all these characters. We get to know all the characters right there in the first 10 minutes. We're following all their stories in it's it's great. It's one of those again, it's my my way of engaging like it's a favorite of mine. If you know when you're just surfing the BVI. You happen to see it, then you stop. Yeah, absolutely. 50 pounds ready before, right? It's one of those Little Miss Sunshine. And then the other one, a smaller movie that I really, really, really loved as well. Was Billy Elliot.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:00
Oh, yeah, I love Billy Elliot. I remember Billy Elliot, that was a really sweet film.

Jose Silerio 1:04:04
Yeah. And I think that this I think maybe just happened to be fine with me when when I had my first child when they first came out. So the whole Father Son, thing was,

Alex Ferrari 1:04:12
you secretly want to dance I understand.

Jose Silerio 1:04:17
I love you know, how they played out in our kids journey of him simply wanting to dance played against the backdrop of what's happening in his dad's world, you know, with the coal miner striking and having a bigger theme out there, but yet their theme really was just the same. I think it just makes you laugh. It makes it cry. It's what the movie should be. That's a great that's a great list. Yeah, so that's kind of my top three I think. For now.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:46
For now. Yeah.

Jose Silerio 1:04:48
2016 Yes, Mr. Morrow, it may change. Of course, of course.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:52
Now, what's the most underrated film you've ever seen?

Jose Silerio 1:04:54
Ah, this is a tough one. I think a lot there. I always look for you know, good movies. Every year just like one small movie that comes out that for me to say I didn't even know that came out in the movie as in I watch it in DVD but I love that completely. Right and there's sort of like they have that in the field but although there are recognizable actors in nature, sure, right, I think, like, in 2013 there's like the way way back. We Oh, yeah, I like the way way back, which is great movie that Steve Carell Toni Collette, you know, great cast. There was, yes, in 2014. There's a smaller one. With the skeleton, the skeleton twins. This is Bill Hader and Kristen Wiig. I haven't seen that one. It's again, it's a small movie, right? It's very indie ish. I just love how they built the characters and the relationship that they have. So you know, so it goes from me every year, I have kind of the one that they love that they felt like was real. And so 2015 was 2015 2015. For me. I was gonna say, but it's also actually looked at not being too happy to for 2014. Again, this, this is where I leave you. Okay. But you know, I think one big one that I thought was underrated or just I didn't even hear about it until somebody told me was moon. Everything moon.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:12
Oh, yeah, that's the one with some rock. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Jose Silerio 1:06:16
I in terms of like, thriller, movies. is one of those episodes. Wow, this really grabbed me. It was like, What the hell is going on here? Really? Just nicely. Why don't you just read the following one character? Yeah, some Rachael Rockwell character, right? And then it's like, you're caught in it.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:35
You're in, you're in the web,

Jose Silerio 1:06:36
you can't get up in you know, like I said, I found out about it simply because somebody told me about it. And I said, Look, I had to watch it, then to not tell everybody. Have you seen movies?

Alex Ferrari 1:06:47
That's a brilliant. That's the brilliant thing about when you find a little gem like that, like, why hasn't someone else seen this? What's going on? Yeah. So where can people find more about you and more about save the cat?

Jose Silerio 1:07:00
Well save the cat. So website, savethecat.com or Blakesnyder.com. But it's the same, I think the easy one to remember, save the cat.com. And in there, the website talks about you know, things that we do workshops that we have, consultations, we do but it also like we also bring up big sheets of movies that have come out, which is always a great resource for writers.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:23
You have some new ones now to fill up some of the most recent movies.

Jose Silerio 1:07:27
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we have people who contribute into it. So So that's kind of the best way to keep up with with save the cat. And again, like I said, it's it's an ongoing thing. It's a way of keeping, you know, Blake's method in alive and updated all the time.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:47
Fantastic. Well, Jose, man, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure talking to you today. I hope you had fun.

Jose Silerio 1:07:52
All right. Thank you very much for having us, Alex.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:55
Appreciate it. Seriously, guys, if you've not read this book, you've got to go out and get it save the cat is an awesome, awesome book. It's just Blake wrote it so wonderfully. And it really opens up your eyes to a lot of different avenues of what it takes to be a screenwriter and how to tell a story. And his method is pretty amazing how it matches up in the in the world of movies today. And in the actual blog post or the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com/071. I put a couple of videos of how Blake's method, mastery measures up to certain movies, and they actually go through scene by scene of these very famous Hollywood movies. And you can see where all of his points line up perfectly. It's quite remarkable to watch. So definitely check that out. Now, guys, again, if you want to be part of the indie film, hustle, tribe, and community, that's what we're really about. We're trying to connect not only you guys to me, but you guys to each other, and create a community where we can share knowledge, share information, and share resources to get our movies made. And I've kind of put together a hub for everybody to go to and talk and communicate and exchange information and so on. If you go to our Facebook group, our indie film, hustle, private group on Facebook, and all you got to do is go to indiefilmhustle.com/Facebook. And not only do you get like, first cracks at all of our new articles, and posts and videos and things like that, but you get to watch and listen to other filmmakers and see what they're doing, and see how they can help you and learn from them. And if you have any information about things you've read on the line somewhere that might help the community, please post it there as well. So definitely check that out. indiefilmhustle.com/Facebook. And as always, please go to filmmakingpodcast.com and leave us a honest review of the show. It really helps to show out a lot and it helps us get the word out and what we're trying to do with indie film hustle So, thank you guys so much for all the amazing emails and messages I get from you guys, I've really it really keeps me going and really helps me on those tough days where I don't want to get up and don't want to do a new pod guys, but I love doing this for you guys. And I love helping you guys out as much as I can. So thank you from the bottom of my heart for all the support and well wishes. And I will continue to do the good work that we're doing here at indie film hustle for you guys. We got some really cool stuff coming up in the next few weeks. Got some announcements coming up in the next few weeks. So stay tuned for all of that. And I wish you guys nothing but the best on your filmmaking journey. And it is a glorious one. If you know what you're doing. Thank you guys. I'll see you soon. Keep that hustle flowing. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

YOUTUBE VIDEO

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage – Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. AudibleGet a Free Filmmaking or Screenwriting Audiobook
  3. Rev.com – $1.25 Closed Captions for Indie Filmmakers – Rev ($10 Off Your First Order)

IFH 061: Chris Vogler – Screenwriting & The Writer’s Journey Blueprint

If you have seen Star Wars then you know Joseph Campbell‘s work. If you ever have seen The Lion King then you have seen one of Campbell’s best students, Chris Vogler, work.

Related: Michael Hauge: Writing a Screenplay That Sells

Chris Vogler wrote the game-changing book  The Writers Journey: Mythic Structure for WritersI read this book over 20 years ago and it changed the way I look at storytelling. Chris studied the work and principles of the late master Joseph Campbell. His book The Hero with a Thousand Faces was the bases for Star Wars as well as almost every other Hollywood feature film in the past 60 years.

 

What Chris Vogler did so well is that he translated Campbell’s work and applied it to movies. The Writer’s Journey explores the powerful relationship between mythology and storytelling in a clear, concise style that’s made it required reading for movie executives, screenwriters, playwrights, scholars, and fans of pop culture all over the world. He has influenced the screenplays of movies from THE LION KING to FIGHT CLUB to BLACK SWAN to NOAH.

“I teach sometimes, and always say that Chris Vogler is the first book that everyone’s got to read.” — Darren Aronofsky , Oscar-nominated Screenwriter/Director, Noah, Black Swan, The Wrestler

Pretty high praise from one of the best filmmakers working today. In this episode, I ask Chris to break down a bunch of concepts of the Hero’s Journey, why it resonates with people around the world and what makes an amazing hero and villain.

Enjoy my conversation with Chris Vogler.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:01
So guys, I want to welcome you to a very special episode a special episode to me because today we have on the show Chris Vogler. Chris is the writer of the writers journey, an integral and amazing part of my development as a storyteller. This book kind of changed my life. I read it when I was in college 20 odd years ago. And basically, he takes the works of Joseph Campbell, the hero's journey and translates it for filmmakers. And he worked at Disney for about almost 10 years. He was there. While he was while they were making Beauty and the Beast and Lion King and all these kind of you know that the pinnacle of, of Disney's power now they're, they're going through another renaissance right now. But then he actually kind of changed the game when he wrote this amazing memo, telling everybody what every story had the hero's journey. And if you haven't heard about the hero's journey, or have not heard that concept before, definitely sit back and relax and take a listen to what Chris is going to talk about. And also take a look at that course, that he and Michael wrote, screenwriting and story blueprint, the heroes two journeys. So without further ado, I'm not going to Yap anymore. Just let's get into it with Chris Vogler. So Chris, thank you so much for being on the show. We really appreciate you taking the time. I'm very glad to be here. So So you know, just so everybody knows in the audience, I read Chris's book, the writers journey. I don't want to date anybody but over 20 years ago, and it definitely changed the way I look at story. So for that, I thank you very much, sir.

Chris Vogler 2:46
Hey, you're welcome. Yeah, I was a very hungry young, youthful author.

Alex Ferrari 2:51
Very youthful, you must be 30. Now, so you did it when you were 10. Fantastic. So how did you start in the film business?

Chris Vogler 3:01
Well, I had a path that led me through journalism school first, back in Missouri, where I'm from, and then I got into the Air Force, and they sent me out to Los Angeles, I was lucky, it was the middle of the Vietnam War. And instead of going to Vietnam, they sent me to LA and I worked for an outfit that made documentary films about this space program, and so forth. And after that, I got to go to film school on the GI Bill, and went to the USC School. And, and that's really where things came into focus for me, because I encounter the work of this man, Joseph Campbell, who wrote The Hero with 1000 faces and was a big influence on George Lucas and many others. And that kind of, you know, focus me on my quest to find out what stories were all about. So that and also, there was a class at school that was important called Story analysis for film and TV. And that was like a career pathway for me, because it showed me that, you know, thinking critically and writing about stories and reacting to things intelligently was, you know, a way I could make make a path for myself into the business.

Alex Ferrari 4:20
Now, what um, what about Joseph Campbell's work really kind of drew you drew you in and what was the revolutionary part of his work that kind of, you know, really sparked something in you?

Chris Vogler 4:31
Well as as a kid and just a pure consumer of movies and TV from the Midwest. I grew up on a farm. It was, you know, wonderful and mysterious to me, how they sort of hypnotize me with these great images and all that I I was on a quest I was trying to figure out. I was looking for the book, where's the where's the the, the rules of this? Where's the physics of it? where's the where's the color chart of the period? Got a table or the theory of how they do it. And you know, I got to film school and I found out well, there really isn't anything like that. And then just sort of by accident, I found the work of Campbell. And he wasn't thinking about movies. But he had thought long and hard about mythology and these patterns he kept seeing about heroes, and how that related to, you know, current findings in psychology, especially the work of Freud, but more Carl Jung In school, so he was combining the patterns have old mythology with modern psychology and kind of handing it back to us and saying, Okay, here's, here's what's hidden inside all these stories, advice for how to live. And that turned out, I thought, to be a great blueprint for telling stories and communicating with an audience. So that was my, my breakthrough about it.

Alex Ferrari 5:58
Now, can you talk a little bit about what the hero's journey is?

Chris Vogler 6:03
Yeah, you know, this is a pattern that Campbell found in the ancient myths, he kept seeing the same sort of signposts over and over again. And he had, you know, somewhere between 16 and 20, different events, psychological, mostly events, that would occur in almost every story, I worked with a little refined it down to 12 things, but the essence of it is, you know, everybody at some stage in their life has an ordinary world that they know, and then they're going to go into something new and different, and you know, a new relationship, new job, a war starts or a catastrophe happens, or health crisis, whatever it is, there, you're going to be in a new world. And so it's about exploring that world, and how the difficulties of it can almost kill you, that's sort of the essence of it, that this is danger, you know, change in life is dangerous. And it can be threatening, but that can also change you and make you stronger and more resilient, and, you know, more more alive and conscious in humans. So that's, that's the basic essence of it, people started an ordinary world, they go out, you know, either because they're itchy inside, or they are being forced to it by outside circumstances, and they explore something new, there's often a mentor who helps them. That's an important part of it, the presence or absence of somebody who can guide you and be a role model, kind of. But you know, that that's, that's the essence of it, that you were transformed by an intense experience of going through a change and entering a new stage of life. And you're not the same, you come out as a different person. So that's kind of the, the essence of the idea.

Alex Ferrari 8:00
So would you agree that for people who are not familiar with the hero's journey, a great movie to illustrate this would be Star Wars The original episode for the new hope?

Chris Vogler 8:12
Yeah, yeah, that that was, you know, it's always been the easiest way to show where the signpost star because George Lucas was very conscious of Campbell's work, he had read about it even before film school. He was aware of Campbell because he had, you know, studied anthropology and various other things. And found Campbell that way and have the same I think inside I did that, gee, this would be great for plotting stories and giving them a little bit of this mythological resonance in psycho psychological reality. So yeah, it's easy to see that signposts because he made them big, he made all the turning points. Very clear, and obvious, you know, the, the pattern calls for a call to adventure. And there's the Obi Wan Kenobi literal, your literal call for adventure. Yeah, there's literally this call to everything is literal like that. There's supposed to be the handing off of some kind of relic of the past that that's going to guide you and help you and so he gets his father's lightsaber from Obi Wan Kenobi. There's supposed to be a mentor, there's Obi Wan Kenobi, and so forth, you know, when they when they come to the, to the cantina. That's a typical situation in these stories that you go to a bar or a saloon or a watering hole or something, and you find out what the new world is like, and then boom, you take off. And that's an important part of the pattern to that that sense in the audience that we know there's some preparation that needs to be done to meet the hero and figure out what the problems are, but then we want the story to take off and that should happen, you know, ideally, maybe 20 minutes or so into the future. Half an hour in maybe.

Alex Ferrari 10:01
But when is going when he jumps on when he jumps on the Millennium Falcon basically.

Chris Vogler 10:06
Yeah, when they go off, it's it's very, very clear. And you know, there's there's other things too that I think check it easy to see the yearning of the hero, you know, when he looks out at the twin sons on the planet, you know, wants to get out there and you know, but he's stuck. He's a farm boy, but then boom, this rush of events takes over and then it meets all kinds of monsters and you know, almost dies a couple of times. And that's, that's par for the course on this, this hero's journey deal.

Alex Ferrari 10:38
Now, can you break down, at least just give a basic understanding for people who don't understand the basic three act structure? And how that might also translate into a trilogy as well like, cuz I know how many Star Wars again, you know, Star Wars, A New Hope, Empire and return, all that kind of stuff.

Chris Vogler 10:54
Yeah, you know, there's a beautiful thing going on with all of this current study that people are doing of story structures and narrative and so on, which is, at first, my competitors, and I were doing seminars, and workshops and writing books, all hated each other, and were jealous, then, you know, and said that other guys system is stupid. And mine is the only one that works, you know, that was right procedure. But we got over that. And we all mostly realized it, we're all talking about the same thing. And it's human. And it's kind of hardwired. So these things beautifully start to overlap. And, you know, sort of parallel to my 12 Stage pattern is something called the three act structure, which was really pioneered by a man named Syd field, who was a wonderful man, of course, last year, so and was a real pioneer, because he laid out this unwritten rules of storytelling that he sort of put together as what they call the paradigm of three act structure. And there's nothing all that Earth shakingly knew about it. But just like my idea with the hero's journey, this can be traced back easily to at least Aristotle, who taught not, you need a beginning, a middle and an end. And the energy I think of this is what's important to grasp about the strip the three act structure, it's to use a metaphor, it's like drawing a bow, you know, you're you're, you're pulling back in the first act, you're, you're loading that bow up with energy, and then you're taking aim and the second act and dealing with the wind and all the other challenges, and then you fire it. And in the third act and your intention, or the situation of the hero, you know, finally goes to some kind of target, and either hits or misses, you know, and if it misses, it's a tragedy. And if it's a hit, then you know, you've got a comrade happy. And so, you know, that's one way to, to look at it. And there's, you know, many metaphors that you could, you could use on this, but that, but but that's a good one, that you're, you're gathering energy, you're building tension, then you're, you know, really zeroing in on critical things, and then sort of launching the whole thing in the final act. And that overlaps with my pattern.

Alex Ferrari 13:29
So like a movie like Pulp Fiction, which does has a it's a very unique structure. Can you kind of break that because it's genius, because it follows the hero's journey in its own structural way. Am I wrong in that? Okay, break that down a little bit?

Chris Vogler 13:45
No, you know, that's a really interesting and challenging one to analyze. Because it's so ambitious, first of all, those guys the writers of that we're trying to Roger Avery and Tarantino we're trying to deconstruct things and tell multiple stories, and that's very challenging and they chose to do them out of sequence and, you know, play around with our expectations of what what will happen in order, you know, and that's refreshing but you can and deconstruct it, you can reconstruct it and sort of lay it out in a linear way and it's it's a very, in some ways, conventional storytelling that they're doing the hero's on all the different threads of the story have an ordinary world they all go through some kind of drastic challenge and change and enter into you know, some new situation. And, and again, they either hit or they miss I mean, that's the beautiful thing, especially about the main story with John Travolta and

Alex Ferrari 14:56
And Sam Jackson.

Chris Vogler 14:58
Samuel Jackson is Is that one of them Tarantino sees this they have this miracle happen where they're supposed to all be shot to pieces and in a drug shootout. And miraculously, Sam Jackson says they're missing. And he says that's, that's a clear sign from God, we were spared for a purpose. And so my life has changed now. And Travolta says, Hey, that was just a coincidence, it doesn't change anything. And, you know, the story sort of sits in judgment of those guys. And at the end, the writers give Samuel Jackson eternal life and say, You You're gonna go on and be like, the guy in cocaine travels around, who travels around righting wrongs and doing good in a nice, Zen kind of way, doing little harm and little bloodshed. And Travolta is killed getting off the job, you know, he jumps off the toilet, and Bruce Willis shoots to death. So

Alex Ferrari 15:57
Spoiler alert,

Chris Vogler 15:59
The story and a story. The writers, you know, sit in God's chair kind of and give their their judgment. So I'm, how do you react to this new thing? That's it, you know, in the second act, the challenge, and then how does it land and so to speak, the third act, although it's all messed up, you know, in the editing process, actually, it's you could still make that kind of clear moral sense out of it.

Alex Ferrari 16:30
Now, in your opinion, what makes a good hero and a good villain,

Chris Vogler 16:36
This is, this is great, they're sort of, you know, mirror images of each other, sort of reflections of each other. A good way to look at all the characters is that in some way, everybody else in the movie is like a another possibility of the hero that that even the love interest, male or female, is like your opposite side, or your opposite possibilities. The villain is the the dark possibility of you the clowns, and tricksters around you, those are the funny possible versions of you. So the villain is some kind of mirror image first. But what makes a good hero is somebody who is complex and they're broken somehow, that seems to be really deeply essential in all the way back to the mythology is that the hero will be strong and powerful, and you know, maybe, like Hercules stronger than everybody else, but he's got problems. And, and something broken or something wrong with him. In his case, it was dealing with women, and sometimes He misjudged situations and would go off on people or, you know, cause a lot of problems because he was so impulsive. So, you know, all the way back in the mythology, this idea is planted that the hero is more believable and more human because they're imperfect.

Alex Ferrari 18:07
With that said, I don't mean to interrupt you. I don't mean to interrupt you. But I just wanted to make a real point here. A good hero, like you said, all those flawed heroes, is that one of the reasons why it's so difficult to write for a character like Superman, who's essentially a God, with the movie coming out this weekend. Just curious on your take on that, like, that specific character, and how difficult sometimes it is to make those kind of characters work as a hero?

Chris Vogler 18:33
Yeah, yeah, that's certainly a very interesting franchise, to me, partly for those reasons. That it is he's a mythological character. And as you say, he's got some semi divine potential, I actually was called in at one point by one of the studios to, you know, sort of put Superman on the couch and shrink him and put him through my mythological process. And, you know, this is I think, at a point when they were trying to decide, are we going to do Batman versus Superman, this was many years ago that would consider it the this current film has a long, long history. They they asked me to sort of shrink Superman, and it was all about the flaws of the limitations. That that's what makes him interesting is that even though he's invulnerable, most of the time, there's still conditions like kryptonite and red and green, right, that have different effects on him and then he's emotionally kind of a train wreck in some ways. And that's, you know, charming that that when he puts those glasses on for some reason, he becomes shy and bumbling and can't say what he really thinks and is, you know, very, very easy to identify with. So you You know, you kind of get the best of both worlds, this superhuman set of possibilities, but with some realistic limitations. And then

Alex Ferrari 20:09
But that's why I think Batman. Well, that's why I like that, like Batman is such a relatable character because people, because people can identify with him he's in, he's more much more popular than Superman, in many ways,

Chris Vogler 20:22
Very, very interesting. How we use these characters as meditation devices or something. And we think through the stories about, you know, different developments, what does it mean to be a man, what does it mean to be a patriot, you know, even look at the colors of Superman's costume or Batman's costume. And it just, you know, is sort of a mirror reflection of what's going on in society at the moment, or what society thinks is important. So, you know, Batman, for some reason, that one seems to be a laboratory to experiment with all kinds of different kind of dark brooding thoughts. But there's such a range within Batman, that people can just turn the dial to comedy and, you know, gross, silly things and, and get a big kick out of it and even find meaning in it. But then turn the dial the other way to Batman is a complete lunatic and, you know, a reflection of the nuttiness of our own society. So it's, it's really fun to see how the writers do this, but also really how the consumers are, are using it to figure stuff out. It's it's just entertainment, you know, they say, it's just cotton candy for the mind. But there's much more going on in even the silliest things.

Alex Ferrari 21:56
And you're continuing with the villain, what makes a great villain.

Chris Vogler 21:59
Yeah, just, I think, you know, very much along the same lines in the kind of fundament, that there should be, you know, a lot of powers, but also limitations. And especially when you are dealing with magical figures, who have, you know, vast magic powers, one of the things that helps is to make a rule, it costs something that every time you do something bad, or something magical. It's not free, it costs you something you may lose, you know, you may come become partially partially paralyzed, you might become blinded, you know, every time you use your X ray vision, or whatever. And that just makes the game so much more interesting that he can do anything. And then for the kind of more everyday villains, I think it's useful to realize they don't think they're villains, they think the hero of your story is the villain, that they're, they're totally convinced they're right. They, they have built their whole life is built around their view of the world. And so, again, they're the mirror image of the hero. And when the hero is up there down, when the heroes happy, that doesn't make them happy. And vice versa, you know, they're when they're happiest, the hero is the most miserable. So they make diagrams, they make waveforms, and they're they're perfect mirrors of each other, sometimes. They balance the yin and the yang, they balance each other and, and then there's the whole idea of archetypes, which is something I got out of Campbell's work, you know, also from Carl Jung, who said inside everybody there is a cast of characters, basic characters, a mother, a father, a hero, a villain, an angel, a devil, you know, all these kind of basic human possibilities. And at first I thought, the villain is the villain, and, and should be, you know, really mean and tough all the time. And the hero should be heroic all the time. And that mentor should be mentoree all the time and so forth. But then I realized Life ain't like that. And people have different masks that they wear, you know, maybe you wear 20 different masks in the course of one day. That you're a tough guy one minute then you're a coward the next minute and you're a teacher one minute, you know and so forth. So villain. The villains are wearing a mask you know, most of the time of the villain but there's other masks in there. And again, they may they can show kindness they can they can be heroic, they can be a teacher to the hero. You know, they can feel sorry for the hero and in almost spare the hero all these things make them more interesting than just not I'm here to make your life hard. So, so these are the shadings are what make it realistic and more fun.

Alex Ferrari 25:09
Now, the hero's journey is become, and it hasn't become, but I guess it is so relatable to so many people around the world, regardless of religion, society language is that because it's just something that is hardwired into every human being, no matter where you come from.

Chris Vogler 25:27
Yeah, it's, it's, there are two things in operation here. And one of them is that I do make that assumption that, in the course of evolving into human beings, we created a whole bunch of structures, like families, for instance, and societies, we created these structures, and stories are one of those that, you know, I think we actually grew up part of the brain that handles that, that allows you to think in metaphors and imagine people, you know, when somebody's just talking to you, and saying, Once upon a time, there was a little girl, you somehow create the world and the little girl. And that's, that's all part of being human. But the other side of it is, then you have millions and millions of examples of these things in the form of stories. And people are, are swimming in an ocean of stories in their lives. And even if it wasn't hardwired, we'd all be taught by Hollywood movies and TV and the myths and legends of our culture's, we'd all be taught, what are the basic rules of these things? And, you know, what is the what is the shape, and the effect, but when I go back to the first one, that it's hard wired, because it seems that certain images and situations will very reliably trigger emotional and physical reactions in the audience. You know, things like people in trouble, people helping, you know, in sacrificing their own lives to help somebody else. Somebody sneaking up behind you to threaten you, all those things get physical reactions, and it's pretty reliable across cultures. So So there's

Alex Ferrari 27:19
So would you agree that and this is something I've always told people that asked me about story, I'm like, Well, if there was no story in the world, I don't think the human experience can move forward. Like just on a daily basis. How many times do you just tell what how was your day at work? That the story, you know, and all these kind of things? Do you agree with that, like, without story, we just couldn't move forward?

Chris Vogler 27:43
Yes, it would be a very different world. You know, I suppose there is an engineering version of the world where, you know, everything would be expressed only as, as mathematical formulas or diagrams or something. But even that's a metaphor. And the metaphor is telling some kind of a story, the world is made of numbers. You know, that's as much of a story as Peter Pan. So yeah, I think it's true because of the fact that it's, it's just so hard wired into us. You know, people say, I remember this. When Johnny Carson died, people, a lot of people said, What's it like to be Johnny Carson? In other words, you couldn't really tell me how it was to be Johnny Carson. But what's it like, you know, and give me a metaphor. It's like being the king, or it's like being on top of the world, or it's like being under a spider. All those are metaphors, and they tell little stories. So we think in poetry and metaphors, just automatically, and it's so embedded in the language, we don't even realize it. You know, like I just said, it's embedded in the language. And so I've created a metaphor that there's a, there's a mass and then inside that mass, like raisins inside a loaf of bread. There's embedded these, these ideas. So So these things are hard to escape, and you kind of can't see them, because they're so dominant. But, but now there's good things about it, because it does allow us to communicate, and to get ideas across and convince people of things by telling it in the form of a story has all politicians know very well. It's one it's one thing to say the the veterans are being mistreated, but it's much better to say here's a veteran and his what happened to him and look and he, you know, had all this sacrifice, and now he's suffering. And so now wow, that's a whole different level of relationship and identification. So

Alex Ferrari 29:57
Oh, I see it. I see with my mind My daughters who are four, how story impacts them and how I'm using story now just to kind of relay core, as George Lucas said, the meat and potatoes of our society, like, you know, the boy that cried wolf, don't lie, you know, things like that. It's so powerful and how these stories like the Grim Tales and things like that, they just go on from generation to generation now the Disney stories and, and the movies and stuff like that movies that I saw when I was growing up. Now I'm showing them to my girls and, and Star Wars is one of those, you know, kind of mythos those, those generate the new generations are catching up with that, you know, the stuff that we grew up with? Younger, it's just fascinating to watch. Now, are, are we all on our own hero's journey? Basically?

Chris Vogler 30:48
Yes, that's one of the biggest insights I had, by the way, your daughters are very lucky, because you're keeping up this ancient tradition, and you're not outsourcing it to the technological stuff. That's part of it, but introducing them to it and talking to them about it. Reading the stories to them, especially, is, is critical. But yeah, I mean, that was the big insight from the very beginning. I said, Wow, when I read Campbell's book, at film school, I kind of skim through it, I'm a good skimmer, and I skimmed through it on the bus on the way home. And by the time I got off the bus, my whole life had been changed. And one part of it was, yeah, this is great for making movies, this will make better, more entertaining more international movies. But at the same time, I was aware, this is a great guideline for living. It's, it's a template. And and it's a again, it's a metaphor, it's telling you a story, once there was a person who you know, lived somewhere, and they went someplace and changed it. But it's, it's just so clear to me that our ancestors thought it was important. And they preserved it in the form of stories, because it's your guidebook for life, for how to deal with the inevitable things, things are going to come along and wreck your plan, no matter what that plan is. And so how do you deal with that? And the stories are just an infinite Well, of options and solutions, and failures, you know, that two examples of tragic failures. So,

Alex Ferrari 32:34
Now What? What? No, no, I was gonna say, I was gonna ask you, what do you how do you know you're reading a good story when you're reading? Well, I'm sure you've read a few scripts in your day?

Chris Vogler 32:44
Yes, the number count, it's hard to say how many but it's well above 20,000. People like to believe but but I there's there's no question that, you know, I have file cabinets filled to prove it, of my reports that I've analyzed 20,000 stories at least. And, you know, the elements of the good one are, I'm a sucker for poetry and and for for just good writing. And I now I'm sort of ruined as a reader. Because I have low tolerance for bad writing. And I'm talking here about just the how do you compose a sentence. And there's, there's, there are people who, you know, they might be giving you good information. I'm reading a book about the city of Venice right now in Italy. And it's good information, but it's given in this very flat way. Venice was a big city in the 1400s. It was important, you know, and there's no music or poetry in that at all. But But I appreciate so much the beautiful writers. Now, screenplays are special, they're supposed to be very spare and simple and short sentences like that, for the most part. But there's, there's just a confidence that you feel when somebody knows how to how to build the nice, pretty sentences, not fancy but you know, elegant. So that's, I know, this is very subtle and hard to pin down when I'm saying, but beyond that, the simple thing for you know, like, what makes a good screenplay is, man, they grab you right away. And you know, right where you are and who it's about, for the most part. They're very clear about this is the hero spending a little time describing her? Maybe giving her some special behavior at the beginning that gets my attention. Why is she doing that? And that hooks me in so you know, there's their scripts, you read 20 pages, you don't know who it's about. You don't know what it's about. You don't know You know, even You know, is, is this the main location? Or is this a little prologue or, you know, there's a lack of clarity. So I just like it when, when things are simple and clear, and that's a sort of a motto of mine. From that the classic old romantic comedy. It Happened One Night. Clark Gale. Yeah. Yeah. Clark Gable is a reporter in that, and his motto is simple stories for simple people. And it's not condescending, it's it's a really good artistic rule. Just keep it simple. Tell me the story. And, you know, make it elegant in language and so forth, if you can, but, you know, be clear. Above above all, that's another thing I'd rather be clear than pretty in my, in my storytelling, and pretty historic, you know, sometimes, you know, overly flowery. He can also mean, look how cool I am. I'm not telling you who this guy is. And I'm going to make you wonder what's going on for a long time. Or I'm not going to tell you, you know, that sort of razzle dazzle is are using

Alex Ferrari 36:11
75 cent words when yes, that sent that letter?

Chris Vogler 36:14
Yeah, yeah, yeah, or another version of it is, and then the camera using a Zeiss iKON lens with a 35 diopter on it on the corridor at about 3.6 miles per hour. And then, you know, this kind of over directing is another another version of

Alex Ferrari 36:32
Have you read, have you read there? Have you read scripts to have that kind of? I mean, I've never heard that this Genki. But have you read something like that?

Chris Vogler 36:39
Yes, yeah, it does come up every once in a while. And I think it's generally from someone who isn't confident and hasn't done it very often before, and they're trying to prove, look, I know all this stuff, I took a class or I read a book or, you know, I went to film school. And, you know, I, myself, I think there was a little bit of that in some of my early scripts, because, you know, also people have a passion, they see it in their head so clear, they want to make sure it's down there on the page. But I learned better ways to do that, than to say, you know, you put please put the camera on a tripod, about four feet off the ground, you know, it's not that, but you know, you it, you indicate stuff like that by, he looks up from under his eyebrows, and she sees a flash of light in his eyes. And that gives you that makes the shots in your mind better than saying, with a tight close up, just up from his eyebrows down to his nose, you don't have to do that you just draw attention to the detail, you want to see the gun. That's a great note. So, and it is important, these things about the body, the hands, skin, eyes, you know, referring to those in the text. It kind of creates the close ups, you know, just just writing that in your slugline his hand near the gun? You know, is? That's that's better than saying a tight close up or that you see your mind immediately. So. So you you worked at Disney for a while, correct? Yeah, that was I guess that was the longest run I had at any of the studios. I had to sort of like military tours of duty at Fox on either side of that at Fox as a reader and then later as an executive. But in the middle was about 10 years at Disney. And that's a long run in the long run. Your normal gig is about two years. Honestly, people people say you were doing something right? Jobs. Well, I was doing something right. But also within those 10 years, I worked for about four or five companies within Disney. So I kept changing over. And as a new company was developed, like they created Touchstone type period pictures and various other and then there was Imad Hollywood pictures and Hollywood pictures and you know, all these different divisions. And as each one was created, I would come in and write some memos and read some scripts for them and, you know, get get involved and I was a little bit conscious of that trying to diversify and get as much stuff into my portfolio as I could. And that's a sidebar here, but very important. A lot of my thinking and work these days is about branding. And somehow intuitively, I was good at that. And before the internet, I created a kind of viral marketing for myself. through I mean of the Xerox machines and you know, fax machines and stuff like that. I spread a viral idea through the mind of Hollywood, which was this memo that I, when I was when I was at Disney, and the memo simply took Campbell's academic idea and translated it into Movie language. He talked about the Epic of Gilgamesh, or the fairy tale of the three shoes or something. And I would talk about, you know, here it is in ordinary people and Star Wars and various other classic films. So

Alex Ferrari 40:40
I even read that as a film student, I read that memo. That's how far that memo went, I was in Florida. And I heard about this memo that said, this is the this is the the guide book, the blueprint of all story. And of course, as a film student, you really like Oh, my God, I have to read this. And it would circulate around the school. And then I mean, so you did a good job. Without email. Without internet, you were able to create a viral piece of material that branded you completely Yeah, I when I bought your book,

Chris Vogler 41:15
It definitely did. And I have another thought about the branding, which is that branding is really a matter of association, you're associating yourself with different things like Coke, one of their mottos was coke adds life. So they say, Coke equals life, and whatever you know about life, whatever you like about life, there isn't coke. So

Alex Ferrari 41:39
Arguably, they take arguably, Coke takes away life, but we can talk about that.

Chris Vogler 41:43
Is that true? Yes. Yes, yes. It's certainly if you want to kill something, let it swim and coke Royale. But yeah, you know, if you want to take chrome off your bumper, that that's another little it'll eat the Chrome right off. But it's this matter of the where were we this is branding branding, on the branding thing is, is that somehow I was able to do that and brand myself with this thing, because it was almost like something that just popped into my head. When I was standing at the Xerox machine. I had written this memo. And I said, you can sort of load this up with intention. And I even left a copy of it on the Xerox machine on the class intentionally thinking the next person coming along may find this and who knows what they'll do with it? Well, let's see. Let's see where that goes. Wow. And, and, and, you know, I think what happened was an executive came in just copied something and found that and plagiarized it. He took my name off, he put his name on the cover, and sent it up to the company ranks because he thought it was good. And it got to the top guy in the company, Jeff Katzenberg. And he said, This is great. This is the this is the greatest thing that's happened since popcorn, and you know, there's all our movies and our animation should. Everybody should read this. And eventually you got credit, though. Yeah, I claimed credit, which is a little out of my character. I'm kind of shy and retiring. But I attach to that one. When I heard that this had happened. I wrote a letter to Katzenberg. And I claimed it and I said, The words gotten out that this memo is on your desk, and I wrote it and not this other guy. And I want something I asked for something, which is I wanted more involvement in the company. And he immediately responded to my amazement, and threw me together with the animation people. And that was kind of the the high point of my involvement with Disney. They were just starting Lion King. And I went over there to talk with the animators and writers. And I thought, okay, now I have to do a sales job and I have to explain who I am. And I have to tell them what the hero's journey is. But I walked in the door and the first thing I saw was a corkboard with the storyboard of The Lion King and it was all mapped out by the hero's journey. Step one, step two step three, really memo. The memo got there ahead of me. And with me doing nothing. It did a complete sales job for me and just rolled out the red carpet. So I walked in and they knew exactly who I was and what my idea

Alex Ferrari 44:50
Now arguably Lion King was from that for well over a decade, if not 20 years. It was the biggest animated movie Ever, financially? We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Chris Vogler 45:14
Yes, it was, I must, I must tell you a bit of a surprise to all of us. Not all of us, but many of us who worked on it, because Disney had been on this rocket ship in life. And then they'd had a couple of, you know, they made they made 20 live action films in a row that were hits, and nobody does that. Now, something bizarre going on. And then they had made Beauty and the Beast,

Alex Ferrari 45:41
The Little Mermaid. That being said, and

Chris Vogler 45:45
Those, those, those were so good, and so revolutionary, they completely revived things, we all kind of felt like, well, the Lion King will take a step back, and it'll just be another picture, and it's not gonna stand up, you know, you can't keep going like that hit after hit. So you almost hope that one of them will drop back a little and lower expectations. And then you'll come back and you know, try to top yourself.

Alex Ferrari 46:12
But that would that would have been probably Pocahontas not like

Chris Vogler 46:15
Maybe so one of those, one of those that followed in the chain. But you know, it surprised us all. I remember seeing the the screening the opening night, they had a big party, you know, and we enjoyed all that. But the applause when the movie was over, was kind of that was good, you know, which is true for almost all Hollywood screenings, you know,

Alex Ferrari 46:42
Every single one of them. Absolutely. You're correct.

Chris Vogler 46:45
Yeah, yeah. That wasn't too bad. But, but Well, we underestimated the way it would connect around the world. And I've heard that everywhere in every culture, that people say, that's a Japanese story, you know, or that's an obviously African but you know, every culture relate somehow. So they they did something, right. And I had my little part in it. Yeah, I just I had a little story about that opening sequence, the circle of life sequence, they had fully animated that by the time I got there. And they showed me that sequence. The first time I met with them, and then the rest of it was either in pencil sketch form, or actual post it notes on the cork board, storyboard style. But my reaction to it was, there's something missing. And the missing thing was when Rafiki, who's the kind of the mentor of the story, the kind of magical guy when he holds up the baby Simba, and he shows everybody. I said, Wouldn't it be cool, if those big clouds up there suddenly opened up and a chef, the light came down and lit up the baby. And everybody in the room, wrote that down and started drawing pictures of it, because the animators communicate. And instead of writing notes down, they draw pictures. So everybody drew that. And they, they stopped the production and put that piece in, which was a big, expensive deal, but they said it was worth it. And that makes the little button on the scene. It's this one little thing. And there's a exactly right place in the music where the music kind of explodes. As the baby lion is held up, and that shackle light just punches it.

Alex Ferrari 48:41
So it makes the theme it honestly without no question about it. I still remember when you were saying it, I see it so clearly in my head. It's like, how could you not have that?

Chris Vogler 48:49
Yeah, yeah. And it was like it was all invited and set up by what they had done already. But just that one little piece, kind of nailed it. And the I saw a physiological reaction in everyone in the room when I just said, what if the shaft the light comes down, and I paused a minute and I noticed everybody's there, like shivering and quivering and kind of moving around in their seats, and then started furiously drawing that that image. So it told me something, and that's very important to me is that the story or the good ideas actually reach into your body and they do something they cause organs in the body to react and secrete fluids, make you shiver, and make your hair stand on end and make a cry and do all these other physical things to you. So that's a big part of my thinking now is what I call the organic storytelling, that it's in the organs of the body, where the story is actually actually happening, that your brain is you know, processing and thinking and comparing but the The direct experience is right there in your heart and your lungs and you know, your guts.

Alex Ferrari 50:06
And also, like, we talk a lot about story structure and the hero's journey and everything like that for actual movies. But there is a part of that, that goes through the marketing of it to to create a storytelling process of the marketing and two movies recently that's done that amazingly well was obviously the Star Wars movie was probably one of the best marketing movies I've seen in a long time and Deadpool, another amazingly marketed film. Can you touch a little bit on that? And how story played a part in those two campaigns?

Chris Vogler 50:40
Yes, that's something I'm very interested in. I've done work with companies that do trailers for movies and done a lot of thinking about, about how they connect. And, you know, it's, it's something in the first case in the Star Wars case, they're dealing with what you know. And the objective here was to say, you knew this, but you didn't know this. And so there are little things like, there's the sort of iconic shot of the current villain with his lightsaber where the the side flames come out, we sort of flicks flicks it on. And that was like, Oh, this is telling you it's plussing. This, it's telling you this is going to be the Star Wars you love. But with some new twists and X ray, a simple thing. But something also a little controversial, got people talking about what does it mean, and if there's even look realistic and possible, and so that'll it worked very well for them. And with with Deadpool, that's just a brilliant job of projecting a voice. It was it was all about the voice and the kind of iconic look at the character in his reclining lazy position. Those those two things together, made a real strong campaign

Alex Ferrari 52:08
And opposed to the Batman vs Superman campaign, which told you from what I hear, I haven't seen the movie, but it told you the entire story. It shows you all the points, the big, the big moments already have been given away in the trailer, which is I think, would have had such a potential to do a Star Wars, if they had the confidence. I think that was the big difference. I think the studio behind it with Star Wars, there was a confidence with the marketing, they're like, look, we're just going to just give you just enough to get you excited. And that's what brought everybody out. And with a story like Batman versus Superman, which is obviously like, you know, the fight of the century, they could have done that. But they didn't they went the complete traditional old school. Let's show them all on the trail. And let's see if we can get some butts in seats on the first opening weekend. Do do and I don't want to get to know you I know these are some of your clients. So feel free to say no comment.

Chris Vogler 53:02
It's It's It's fine. I these are observations I've had anyway. You know, it's a matter of his choice about it. And this particular technique of telling you everything and giving you all the plot beats was really worked out at Disney and it was part of their success for a while that that they they were reassuring you this movie with you know Richard Dreyfus or bed Midler whoever it was, they were putting in movies in those days, back in the 80s talking now they would they would lay out okay, then he's in his ordinary world, and then he's going to go to the special world, it's going to be weird and funny things will happen but dangerous things and then at the end with the through the love of a good woman, he'll figure it out. And that worked for a while, but then people really rejected that. And as you say, it's a safety it's a, you know, a default way to do it. And it's so much better when you really know what you have to sell. I was impressed by one campaign in the last couple of years. For Maleficent the movie looks back at Sleeping Beauty and does it tells a story from more or less the villains point of view. They knew what they had to sell Angelina Jolie with the weird black horns in costume and they just sold that you know that was there kick and so, you know, I think that's the the ticket is you have to know what it is you have to sell and sometimes it is the story or, or it's a new voice of new character.

Alex Ferrari 54:47
Still, so I'm going to ask you right now is going to ask you the same question that I asked all of my guests. These are the toughest questions. So please what is the last thing that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life,

Chris Vogler 55:04
The longest to learn, I guess that would be something I'm still dealing with. And in in that department, I would say, honestly, it's getting out of my own way. I'm still learning that, that I tend to do things the hard way and make things hard for myself and make more of the difficulties than they need to be. So that's, that's a bit of a slow lesson for me that I kind of sum up by something I call it's not my idea, but the do easy method. If you're interested in this, it's it's something that was cooked up by the writer William Burroughs to deal with difficulties in his life. But you just sort of approach everything very gently. And you know, where computers maybe drive you crazy and you want to throw things, there's a way to Caressa them, so that it isn't so difficult and painful. And not a master of this by any means. But that has helped me. So that's when you're still going

Alex Ferrari 56:19
Through your hero's journey in regards to that.

Chris Vogler 56:21
Oh, most definitely. Yeah. Oh, yes.

Alex Ferrari 56:26
So what are your top three? Exactly? What are your top three favorite films of all time, no order or anything like that. Just three films that really touched you?

Chris Vogler 56:37
Well, sure, I always start with my desert island movie, if denied all other films would be the one. And for many years, this has been a movie from the 50s called the Vikings, which is really the source material or very close to the current Vikings TV series. That's on the history. There. They're really drawn from the same literary source, the same historical character. It's the same idea. A great adventure movie with Kirk Douglas and Tony Curtis and Ernest Borgnine. Exactly, and, you know, amazing effects and beautiful ships and all that. Number two, would be a movie called Gilda, which is, uh, oh, yeah, black, black. And it's just a special film to me. Because it's a film noir. It's about a triangle of evil guy and a woman who is associated with him and a young man who used to be her lover, and, you know, the the loyalties among all those three people. But it's much more profound than that. It's kind of an essay on good and evil and the devil and God and just profound kind of movie. And then our little more modern thing, is a film I'm working with right now. I'm getting ready for electric in Paris. And I had to do a French film. So I picked a film called a Moore, which won the Academy Award a few years ago for Best Foreign Film. And it's about old Parisian couple. And the wife has a stroke, and she eventually declines and they have to deal with her complete downfall as a person. very uplifting story. Got it? Yeah, it's a tough one. But just beautifully made. And a great example of simple stories for simple people in the best way. Very confident. You mentioned that before. That confidence in filmmakers and storytellers is really nice when you have it. And this guy's very confident. He does a lot of things where he'll just have a blank screen. And maybe you'll hear people say, are you okay? And the other one says Jamar, right now, there's no problem. And they're in bed asleep. And he'll just let that black Dean run for almost a minute. And you just kind of breathe and live with the boy that takes confidence. But he's got

Alex Ferrari 59:18
And what is the most underrated film you've ever seen? Let's see.

Chris Vogler 59:23
Oh, yeah, I go to a film that's actually kind of hard to find called They Might Be Giants with George C. Scott. And Anne Bancroft, I think is in it. And it's a play on Sherlock Holmes. It's about a crazy man in New York who thinks he's Sherlock Holmes, and they send a social worker to visit him and her name happens to be Dr. Watson. So it goes well there. I've been waiting for you, you know and she goes And eventually, they get she gets lured into it and realizes he is really the latest incarnation of Sherlock Holmes or he believes it's so much that, let's just accept that. And there really is like a Moriarty a bad guy who's doing things and they rally oddball all the oddball people in New York or rally behind them to stand up to this shadow of Moriarty. And it's a wonderful inspiring film. For some reason that one's not in a lot of packages, and it didn't get sold and it's hard to find. But it's a little treasure.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:41
Now, where can people find you?

Chris Vogler 1:00:44
The best thing would be my website, which is www the writers journey.com. And I also have a blog at WordPress and that is Chris bowlers writers journey blog. I don't

Alex Ferrari 1:01:07
Okay, and can you tell if people can you tell the can you tell that the tribe what books you've actually written besides the writers journey? Or the because I know you've written a few books, correct?

Chris Vogler 1:01:22
Well, I have Yeah, actually, I'm building a little library I wrote, you know, the first book, The Hero's Journey, 20 years ago. Then a few years back, I co wrote a book with a buddy of mine, who's a film director and teacher in New York, named David McKenna. And that book is called memo from the story department. And it's about climate, structure and character, memo from the story to print. And my original memo to Disney is in that about the hero's journey, but also all the other stuff that David and I have used in our work over the years other frames other other systems, like there's a fairy tale analysis technique. There's a way of looking at characters that goes all the way back to the days of Aristotle. There's a chapter on vaudeville, and how the traditions of the stage are still useful for filmmakers today. So it's good that way. And then the third thing, titled that I can claim is I wrote a Japanese manga, you know, their version of camo. And, sure, a buddy of mine, got into the business of publishing in, in America in Japan. And he invited me to contribute a story and so I got one out of the trunk. I took an old movie and novel called Ivanhoe about the time of King Richard in the Crusaders and Robin Hood. And I wrote kind of a sequel to it called Raven the skull so that's the title Raven skull. And it was supposed to be a four book series, we only did the first one so far, but it's, it was really fun to work with an artist in the Philippines, this guy. This and the editor never met him, I never met him. But we did everything by JPEGs back and forth. You know, I, I want the I want the stirrups to look like this. And I want the sword handled to look like this. And I'd send them the the images. And, and man, it would just come back the next day exactly like I wanted. And it was a great way to work. So

Alex Ferrari 1:03:46
There's my there's another book that you wrote the foreword for that actually was the reason I bought the book was because you wrote the foreword to it with myth and the movies.

Chris Vogler 1:03:55
Yes, that that's kind of a another relative of my books. It's in the family. Amanda Stewart void. Tila took on a an important job. I'm glad he did it because it was a lot of labor to do it. But what he did in myth in the movies is he said, Okay, here's Vogel's idea. How does that actually work? What does if you do the diagram, what does it look like? He was doing like pie charts of the of the different steps. And what does it look like in 50 different films and he chose really good classics in different genres. And he shows there that it changes depending on the genre, and that they spend more or less time in different stages and maybe omit stages or repeat them or something. He found all these neat patterns. Sort of subcategories within the general thing. He said it still works in all these films, but it's flexible and so you'll you'll find the the specifics in mainly by Onra adventure movies, romances, mysteries and so forth. He found these these shadings of it. And it's a great contribution. So,

Alex Ferrari 1:05:11
I have to say it's been an absolute joy. Talking to you today. Thank you so much for taking the time and dropping a lot of value bombs on on the audience in regards to structure.

Chris Vogler 1:05:24
Kaboom. Yeah. So I'm glad to do that. And you let me run free. And I appreciate that. And you had good questions. So I hope everybody just keeps in mind my model, which is trust the path trust the path that you're on. Keep going till you get there. And that has its own guidance system built in. So good luck.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:49
Thanks, Chris. And Alright, so now Chris, we're out. Thanks again so much. I really do appreciate you taking the time. I know it's been I know you're squeezing me in right before you Paris trips. Thank you.

Chris Vogler 1:05:58
Yeah, yeah, I have to keep an eye on that ball. But I'm going to be working on that, um, war film I talked about today. Oh, buttoning up my clips on that. But this is great. And I wish you luck with your in the film muscle, you got a pretty good list of people on this noun.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:19
Yeah, Linda, Linda says, hi. I thought I did Linda and of course, Michael. And we. And you know that Michael and I have been doing that, oh, the heroes two journeys course digital courses he sees. So hopefully this will help a little bit with sales with that and, and move forward. So of course, thank you again, so so much. I really appreciate it's been an absolute thrill talking to you, my friend.

Chris Vogler 1:06:42
All right. My pleasure. Thanks a lot, Alex.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:46
You know, I can't really tell you what a thrill it was to talk to Chris. I mean, after after reading his book, and how what an impact that book made on me. If you guys haven't read that book, you got to go out and get it. Writers journey. And you can get all that and you can get the links to his books, the course and all his direct websites and stuff like that at indiefilmhustle.com/061. So a lot of you guys in the tribe actually email me a lot of questions, and specifically, certain things about different parts of the business. And I do my best to answer them. But I had this idea of creating an episode a week, at least one episode a week, I'm going to try of just answering questions or just answering straight questions from the tribe. So I wanted to and I want to call it, ask Alex. I know it's extremely creative. But we're going to try to do this once a week. And we're going to create a YouTube show around it. So you can watch me answer the question. And then I'll also be releasing it on on the video podcast as well as the regular podcast as well. So I want to try to get more value to you guys. And this is a community so and this is our tribe. So everybody talking and asking me questions, might be a question that somebody else has that they haven't asked it to me, but this other person did. And if I can answer for everyone, maybe I can help more and more people. So that's the goal of what we do what I do here at Indie film hustles. I want to try to provide as much value to you guys as possible. So if you have any questions, email me at ask Alex at Indie film, hustle calm. That's ask Alex at Indie film hustle.com. And we're going to be we're going to create a website as well. That would be indie film hustle.com forward slash, ask Alex. So you can be able to go straight there. And hopefully we'll have episodes every week on me answering questions for you guys. So be launching that in the next probably within the next month or so. But please send in those questions and you know anything about the film industry? Film, business, film, marketing, post production? Whatever you want me to answer, I'll do the best I can to answer those questions for you guys. And provide good value to you guys. All right. So again, that's ask Alex at Indie film, hustle calm, and the website is going to be indie film hustle.com forward slash ask Alex. So thanks, as always for listening, guys. And don't forget to head over to filmmaking podcast calm and leave us a great hopefully a wonderful review for the show helps us get the word out on what we're doing with any film, hustle and help more filmmakers out there. Okay. By the way, I wanted to give you guys an update on something. A few weeks ago, I mentioned in launch basically announced that I was doing a feature film called Ania. Well, that has now changed, I have shifted into another project. That project didn't work out the way I wanted it to work out. So I decided to just shift and move to another project. So I'm working currently working on another feature film right now. And we'll be announcing what that feature film will be in the coming weeks and possibly the next month or two because I'm working hard on it right now and getting up bunch of stuff labeled out. But there will be a feature film made by me and the indie film hustle gang sometime this year, regardless of what that movie is. So I have a lot of exciting stuff coming up as well, guys, I mean a tremendous amount of exciting news, exciting things I'm going to be bringing to you guys. And exclusive courses, exclusive topics, exclusive projects, all sorts of different things that I'm going to be bringing to you guys to help you further along on your quest to be a working filmmaker and to survive and thrive in the film business. So as always, guys, thanks for all your support. I can't do this out. I can't do this without you guys. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Please share these episodes. Please share our links when you see them on Facebook and Twitter and in the blogosphere. Just help us and get the word out. All right. I really appreciate everything you guys do. So keep that hustle going. keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

YOUTUBE VIDEO

IFH 055: Michael Hauge – Writing a Screenplay That Sells

You are in for a treat. This week’s guest, MICHAEL HAUGE has been one of Hollywood’s top script consultants, story experts, and authors for more than 30 years.

He coaches screenwriters, novelists, filmmakers, professional speakers, internet marketers, and corporate leaders, helping transform their stories and their audiences using the principles and methods of Hollywood’s most successful movies.

Michael has consulted on films starring – among many others – Will Smith, Tom Cruise, Reese Witherspoon, Julia Roberts, and Morgan Freeman, and has presented lectures and workshops to more than 70,000 participants worldwide.

He is the best-selling author of Writing Screenplays That Sell (now in its 20th Anniversary Edition) and Selling Your Story in 60 Seconds: The Guaranteed Way to Get Your Screenplay or Novel ReadAccording to Will Smith,

No one is better than Michael Hauge at finding what is most authentic in every moment of a story.” – Will Smith

After our interview with Michael Hauge and I decide to bring one of his best courses to the IFH Tribe. We called is Screenplay and Story Blueprint: The Hero’s Two Journeys

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 1:20
So today guys, we have a awesome guest Michael Hague the legendary Michael Hague, Michael Hague has been around as a screenwriting analysts, and screenwriting guru for God the better part of a few decades now. And he wrote the book that's on pretty much every screenwriter shelves, writing screenplays that sell the Complete Guide to turning story concepts into movie and television deals. Michael's list of clients is pretty impressive. He's worked with every single major studio and television network around he has clients like Will Smith, who he helped work on I Am Legend, Hancock, The Karate Kid. And recently he's worked with a Columbia Pictures on the Masters of the Universe reboot, among many other projects he's been working on with the studio. So he is an amazing teacher, and story analysts, story script consultant, and I was I was trying to get him on the show for months. And we finally got him on and we asked him all the tough, tough, tough questions. I discovered Michael through a course that he put out years ago called the heroes two journeys, which he actually co authored with Chris volger, the author of writers journey, who is an another amazing guru, in the screenwriting field. And what we decided to do is Michael and I, and Chris wanted to bring the heroes two journeys to the indie film, hustle, audience, the tribe. So what we've decided to do is put it all together and package it into a new course called screenwriting and story blueprint, the heroes two journeys. This course is a must for any screenwriter, it is a wonderful course that really breaks down the story structure of the hero's journey, which Chris folder is famous for, and Michael's six stage plot structure, and they both go in it back to back kind of really breaking down these amazing story structures for filmmakers for screenplay screenwriters. And when I saw it, it just blew me away. And I've been a fan of Michael and Chris's ever since. So if you want to get a special deal on this new course, at the end of this podcast, I will be giving you guys a link to go to so you can get it for a lot cheaper than it's going to be retailing for. So without further ado, here is my interview with Michael Hague. Michael man, thank you so much for being on the indie film hustle podcast. I really appreciate you taking the time.

Michael Hague 3:59
Oh, my pleasure. I'm looking forward to it.

Alex Ferrari 4:01
So um, tell me, how did you get started in the crazy film business?

Michael Hague 4:07
Crazy business? Um, well, basically, I grew up in Oregon, and I had moved back there after getting a master's in education. And I taught school for three years, but I'd always dreamed of working in the film business, having no idea what that would involve or anything about it. But I just always loved movies. And I figured it's time if I'm going to give this a try. I better get a gun. So I sort of jumped on the turnip truck and went down to Hollywood and move there, discovered a small film school that I started going to and took a variety of classes. And one of those was in what was formerly known as story analysis, which is just the term for being a reader in Hollywood, meaning you read scripts for agents or producers or studios. And you write a synopsis of each script and then you give your comment where you tell them this is terrible. You don't want anything to do. This, so then you give it to them. So they don't have to take the time to read a lot of bad scripts mostly. But it's an entry level job. And after I learned how to do that I, I sort of cold called about 100 different agencies and finally found one that gave me a shot and I became their reader, and then moved over to being the reader for one of their clients who is a producer, he made me his head of development, that's just the next run up, which means I'm now working full time reading scripts for him and working with writers and finding story ideas and so on. And it sort of went from there. Then I worked for a couple other producers. And that led to me on the side teaching at UCLA extension, teaching screenwriting, out of that grew a weekend seminar that I ended up taking over around the world. And out of that grew my book and my consultation business. And that's pretty much where I am now I still consult with writers and filmmakers and storytellers and lecture about screenwriting.

Alex Ferrari 6:01
Very cool, very cool in your book, your book, writing, writing the screenplay that sells writing screenplays that sell Yes, that one's now the 20th anniversary. Yeah, it's it's

Michael Hague 6:11
past that now we get a new edition, the 2020 year mark. And I think that was a couple years ago. So it's gone to 22 years since the first edition came out. And since then, I wrote another book on pitching called selling your story in 60 seconds, and other products and so on. But those two books are the mainstay.

Alex Ferrari 6:33
I took I took your course the the heroes, two journeys, the the DVD course, I guess it was right. That's how I got familiar with your work. And I took that years ago, and it was wonderful. And now we're all we're all familiar with the hero's journey, but you talk extensively about the heroes two journeys. What do you mean by that?

Michael Hague 6:52
Well, to me the way the best way to break down a story or look at story is that there are actually two goals or two journeys, if you will, that the hero of the story takes what is a journey of accomplishment, the hero wants to cross some finish line wants to achieve some visible goal. And then they pursue that through the course of the story. It's a very visible thing that drives the action, it's what we see on the screen. So it might be stopping a serial killer, or an alien invasion or finding a buried treasure or winning the love of the girl or the guy or, or whatever, escaping from some bad situation. It's always something that when we hear that goal, we can envision what achieving it would look like. But underneath that, on most movies, not all some big action movies don't have this. But in most movies, there's a second journey that's under that it's an invisible journey. It's what I call a journey of transformation. And that second journey is one where the hero's conflict comes from within where they are battling or must overcome some long and deep seated fear. Usually that grows out of something in the past, and Intel, they can overcome that fear and find the courage to change, they're not going to achieve the visible goal. And so what I talk about is the way those two things intertwine that visible journey and then that inner journey of transformation.

Alex Ferrari 8:27
So it's kind of like the subtext of the characters development itself, kind of like the hidden the hidden part of of what he's trying to do. It's the characters arc. Got you and the thing and sometimes a character doesn't even know he has that arc until later in the story kind of develops it, I guess, kind of like us in life. We all have our, our inner journeys and our inner issues. And then we don't know that we even have them until later on in life, or things come to us to kind of expose these problems or these issues like oh, that's why you're so angry because you didn't go to that party when you were in third grade, or something along those lines.

Michael Hague 9:01
Yeah, it's usually it's usually not something you didn't do but something that was done or happened to you, that causes what I call the wound, it's that painful or traumatic event, or sometimes it's an ongoing situation, usually from adolescence doesn't have to be but a good example I like to use is goodwill hunting where he was abused by his father got a belt taken to him throughout his whole adolescence, apparently. So now that he's a grown up, he and he's falling in love. He wants to win the love of Skylar, and he does what he thinks he needs to do to do that, but he's never really going to achieve that goal unless he can overcome his fear of letting people see who he truly is of letting her in because he's afraid that he deserved that beating and he's a worthless person. Now he's not aware of that, as you said, this is this is hidden from ourselves. This is we develop this Emotional armor and it's such strong armor that we think that's who we really are. So it takes the course of the movie for the hero to recognize of this is what I'm really dealing with. And this is what I'm going to have to change about myself to accomplish that goal. And in that movie, that transformation is facilitated by Sean the Robin Williams character who helps him see that inner conflict, that identity that he's taken on and help him overcome it.

Alex Ferrari 10:27
And that's why at the end, well, spoiler alert, I got to go see about a girl.

Michael Hague 10:32
That's exactly

Alex Ferrari 10:33
he finally he finally figures it out and says, Hey, I'm gonna go. And I guess you know, as I've I keep reading screenplays and watching movies, and the best ones are those deep seated that when the character actually not not, doesn't beat the bad guy, but beats the bad guy within himself almost, you know, and kind of like, just like, that's why Good Will Hunting is such a wonderful film. And we Everyone's so, you know, what's the word identifies with? Well, because it's, you know, that the inner struggle, I think, is makes characters much more powerful than just the big strong guy that goes around, you know, beating up the bad guys in so many ways.

Michael Hague 11:13
I mean, precisely because, yeah, we may not have been beaten has not fallen in love. But we always believe that there's a part of us we can show to the world, we always believe there's a part of us that isn't worthy, or, or that shouldn't be revealed, or that we're terrified of connecting of someone else, and really being that vulnerable. So that's the universal experience. And then it's just particularized in the story, or in any good story that any screenplay that any of your listeners are writing, it's one of the key questions I always want a writer to ask about their script is what terrifies my hero. And I'm not talking about fear of heights or snow

Alex Ferrari 11:54
Or aliens. That's right right,

Michael Hague 11:57
What what is the emotional fear? What is the what is the wall that I refuse to cross over or break down, no matter how much I want this goal, because it's just too scary. And when a writer can figure out, this is what terrifies my hero, then they're going to get in touch with that inner conflict in that inner journey that the hero takes. And I just think it makes the story much richer, and as you say, much more universal.

Alex Ferrari 12:25
Now, besides goodwill hunting, can you throw one more example out of another one? That that kind of grasp that?

Michael Hague 12:31
Yeah, if you give me too, I could throw out 100. Let me go through a few in Rain Man, his wound was his brother died his No, his brother was taken away, his mother died, his father abandoned him. So now his belief is that anybody I get close to is going to disappear. Now again, I want to emphasize it's not conscious. It's not like if you said to Charlie Babbitt, well, you know, what are you afraid of, and he'd say that he's completely oblivious to it because it's become so much a part of who he is or how he sees himself. But his belief is anybody I get close to will disappear. So his terror is of getting close to anybody. And then he meets this brother, and his reaction to his brother is not to embrace him and say, Oh, well, I've got a brother, it's to just exploit the guy and terrify this brother, because all he really wants at the beginning is his inheritance. But in the course of the journey, what he does is he finds the courage step by step, and gradually to connect with the brother, and comes to realize, even if I get close to this guy, he's not going to disappear. I don't need to be afraid of that consciously or subconsciously. And that's his art. That's his growth. And when he does that, in that case, it's not that he achieves the goal it's he becomes mature enough to let go of that goal and give up on that inheritance and find a better goal, which is to help his brother

Alex Ferrari 13:58
And the brilliance about that specific movie is that Dustin Hoffman's character? He can't be hurt by what Tom Cruise's character is doing to him because he has autistic so he like all these things that like kind of the braiding that he does I guess he doesn't get affected by it so even more so it's kind of like looking in the mirror almost with with Tom Cruise's character like he can't. Can't can't hurt him.

Michael Hague 14:25
Well, yeah, I don't know. I wouldn't agree with that. Because here's the thing is he can hurt Raymond by frightening him so badly. You're right. You're right. You're equipped to deal with the world. Right? here's, here's the parallel I see. It's a care it's a story about a character who has to learn to feel by being with someone who is incapable of expressing emotion up incapable of connecting with another person physiologically, and so but through that character, the the Tom Cruise character, Charlie Babbitt learns to it express his feelings and connect with another person in a way the brother who taught him that is incapable of doing.

Alex Ferrari 15:07
Excellent point. Excellent. But now what are what are the elements of a great scene scene?

Michael Hague 15:15
A great scene? Well, I think, first of all, it has to have the the key foundation elements that any overall story has. And that is it has to be built on character, desire and conflict. In other words, in a good scene, not just the hero of the story are the main character in the scene, but everyone in that scene must want something. And then the, let's say the scene is involves the hero of the story, and he's the one that's driving this movie or driving this goal that moves us along with the story, then whatever it is he wants, or whatever it is, the other characters want. By and large, there must be something standing in their way, there has to be some conflict to be overcome. Primarily because your goal is a screenwriter, your number one goal is a storyteller of any kind. Because I work with internet marketers, and I work with public speakers, and I work with novelists and so on, the goal of any storyteller has to be to elicit emotion and emotion grows out of conflict, not desire. Desire doesn't really isn't really emotionally involving that just is the engine that drives the story. It's the obstacles the character has to overcome, that make the story involving and actually make a story sound commercial as far as that goes. So within each scene, you want to say, okay, who what, how does this scene relate to my hero and that hero's outer journey? How does this move the hero closer to his goal, or create more obstacles to it? And then what does every character in this scene want? And then, if possible, what you want to do is take some of those characters if and put them in opposition. So they want opposing things, that's what's going to create greater conflict in the scene. Sometimes the scene is not about characters in conflict with each other, but teaming together to face some other obstacles, some force of nature, some villain that's on the way, or some, some opponent that has to be overcome, but it's always about what is that conflict? What is that conflict going to be? And then the last thing I would say that's absolutely essential to every scene is you must create anticipation. You want to end every scene with the reader anticipating, okay, what's going to happen next? You want to create a question, okay, now I see where this particular sequence ended, I see where the hero is. Now there's somewhere that they weren't at the beginning. But now what are they going to do about x? Now? What's the next step they're going to take? Or Now how are they going to face this villain that I just saw a scene where the villains planning to kill them, or whatever it might be. So you always want to force your reader to turn the page or to move to the next scene, and try and guess what's going to happen.

Alex Ferrari 18:08
Now, Michael, when you're saying conflict, and obviously conflict is an integral part of every great movie and every great scene. I've heard from a lot of different gurus, teachers, instructors, analysts on story that the one story that really never had the main character didn't have conflict was Forrest Gump. Now, I'm not sure if that's true or not, there's conflict all around him, but he personally never had it. It. Can you explain to me whether that's true or not? Or what your take on that is?

Michael Hague 18:36
I must confess My take is that just sounds bizarre to me. I could not see that he has conflict. Let's take the name through what what is his main desire in that entire movie?

Alex Ferrari 18:50
I would, that would be it getting Jenny getting Jenny.

Michael Hague 18:54
And Jenny keeps getting separated from him and he tries to get her and then she gets involved with others. And and it's, it seems like, always, always, it's let's get back to her. And whenever he encounters her, there's something standing between them. It's It's It's like a love story. But she gets involved with the protesters and the hippies in the late 60s, or whatever else it might be. So there's that. And then there's the fact that when he goes to Vietnam, the bombs are blasting all around him, and he's got to save, save the life of Captain Dave is in the movie, and more than a decade.

Alex Ferrari 19:40
I know, I know. Lieutenant Lieutenant, ohh god!

Michael Hague 19:44
Woody. I think maybe it's hard to recognize what his overall goal is, because it's a very, very episodic story very and because what happens is he seems to overcome the obstacles he faces fairly easily and then go on and have a big effect on other characters. But I would not definitely not say there's not conflict that there are obstacles for him to overcome, or that the audience is wondering how is he going to do this? or How is he going to be able to make money? Get You know, on for Bubba shrimp or whatever? Right? Right? He's trying to do so either either the answer, the short answer would be I don't know. I don't understand the question. Sir, answer would be there wrong. There's lots of obstacles for him to overcome in that movie.

Alex Ferrari 20:40
And now that you've explained it in that way, I completely, totally agree with you.

Michael Hague 20:46
And so on, Louis said, I'm thinking what about his mother and in fact, his mother's dying. I mean, he is able to overcome those obstacles, but so is the hero of any movie, they just go into something bigger. And I think the key is look at the relationship with Jenny.

Alex Ferrari 21:02
Yeah, exactly. And Jenny is his main goal. And it's that's it that's, and I think maybe it's because there's so much other stuff going on around him. And he's in every historical, you know, area, you know, he does so many different things, that you kind of lose track. Sometimes at the end of the day, of course, he just wants to be with Jenny, period.

Michael Hague 21:18
That's it. There's another there's another thing we should point out, too. That is the movies of biography. It's and biographies do not follow the same kind of structure that other films do. I usually say that the, I don't know if it's the most difficult to write, but the least commercial genre is a biography. And what I mean by a biography is the birth to death story of someone's life, or at least birth to, you know, as far along as Forrest Gump gets in that story, because let's take a movie, like the King's speech. The King's Speech is a true story about George the Third, the end, but it's not a biography, because we don't see him being born and his childhood and son, we learn of those things as backstory through dialogue. But it's basically a story about a guy who has a single goal, and that is he wants to give a speech without stuttering. Right? Okay. And his, the whole movie is about how is he going to be able to do that with the help lighten the load, until the speech becomes not just important to him, but important to the whole country because he's got to lead England into World War Two. So that's not my definition of biography. But if you take a movie, like Chaplin, Amelia Earhart, I guess that was called Emilia, I forget what the title was, or, or other movies like that. And notice Malcolm X. So generally speaking, are not do not do well at the box office, then what they do is they'll have an obstacle and then they'll overcome it and then obstacle and overcome it. And it's sort of like, Well, here are pieces strung together into this person's life. And the reason those are generally not commercial, I believe, is because audiences want a singular finish line that they're rooting for that hero to cross. And so that's why Forrest Gump adds the thread of Jenny that runs through that otherwise biography that is about one incident, or one goal after another. And if you take a movie like Braveheart, it's the same thing. The whole story of his life is toward one goal and that is freedom for Scotland. Or Gandhi is about freedom for from England for India. And those biographies are those true stories about real characters who have a singular goal that you can follow creates a much more familiar and stronger spine I believe, than just what you'd call life stories. And so I always recommend you find the one particular incident in the person's life where they had the biggest goal or the most compelling goal and make the story about that. And perhaps because of that, people are not recognizing this the conflict in in Forrest Gump the same way because they're forgetting it's a biography that's going to be segmented into one goal after another.

Alex Ferrari 24:21
Right and generally Our lives are not about one singular goal it's about multiple little goals. That's why

Michael Hague 24:27
that's why movies are better than real. Life is not properly structured.

Alex Ferrari 24:33
It's like my goal is to get to the supermarket and get what

Michael Hague 24:37
I like to say real life is shit happens and then you die and

Alex Ferrari 24:43
Not yet not generally not generally, like our goals now or like I need to go to the supermarket and get this. The crackers are out shoot.

Michael Hague 24:51
Like there's an obstacle,

Alex Ferrari 24:52
But not not not very exciting, though. Very exciting, but freedom from from England. That's that's a much more grandiose goal in life.

Michael Hague 25:01
And then also, that's another good thing to point out that movies are not successful either artistically or commercially, because of the size of the goal. It's only the size of the conflict for the hero that makes a difference. So there's nothing inherently bigger or more important about freedom for England than there is surviving on Mars or goodwill hunting, falling in love with someone who's an inflatable sex doll, I'm giving away an answer to a later question. But it's, it's always what makes it seem impossible for the hero to accomplish this goal. So what that goal is, is only important in that it gives the story its forward thrust and gives the opportunity for those obstacles.

Alex Ferrari 25:54
Very well put very well put now. You know, I'm sure you've read a few scripts in your day. A couple, three, a couple, two or three? What are some of the common problems you see with first time screenwriters and like kind of first time scripts? Well,

Michael Hague 26:10
The number one problem, I think, overall is the writer has not given nearly enough thought to is this commercial. Yeah, it's the writer is assuming apparently, that because this story sounds intriguing to him or to her, or because it's something that happened to them that was fascinating, or because, you know, it makes for a good story around the dinner table. This is something that a million people are going to be willing to pay to see. And that just most of the time is not the case. And while I agree on an emotional level, or a psychological level, you want to write about what you know, what I think is more important is when you come up with a story idea, ask yourself, Is there any movie I can point to, that's made money in the last year or anything that is advertised in today's paper that's playing at the Regal cinema or the art glider whatever, that this is similar to that this is in the same genre that this is going to appeal to the mass audience in the same way. And I think that a lot more respect or attention needs to be paid to is this really something that's going to make money, because I'm assuming that anyone listening who's a screenwriter wants to be a writer, because you want to be heard your what your stories to be seen as films, and for a movie to get made is going to cost a lot of money, and somebody's got to put up that money, and they can't invest that money unless they think it's going to turn a profit. And because movies are expensive, unlike books, which you can publish for pretty cheaply. movies have to have a lot of people buying tickets or tuning in, if it's a TV show, or subscribing to Netflix, if it's that in order for that movie to turn a profit. And so you have to be able to build into that story or build that story on us. One that has a good possibility of making money. And I just feel like lots of writers are not thinking about that. They just it's like for their own edification. Right? Let's say that hurdle is passed. Let's say they found a high concept store or let's say they found a movie that is within a genre that's generally commercial, let's say then the key problems are more within the way the story is told one difficulty I see frequently and this is not limited to new writers. I encounter this with million dollar screenwriters, the story is just simply too complicated. Yeah. Another thing to remember about movies especially if you're pursuing a Hollywood career, if you're talking about pursuing a Hollywood financing a mainstream movie for this country, they're very simple. I mean, hollywood stories are built on very simple ideas. There is I would guess not a single movie playing in theaters right now that came out of Hollywood that I could not with three minutes of thought express the storyline in a single sentence, log lines and basically you know, it's it's simple. Now it doesn't mean the characters aren't layered. It doesn't mean the characters can't be complex. It doesn't mean that there are lots of obstacles to overcome. It's just at the level of story concept. You know what it isn't a group of reporters wants to find out the truth or report the truth about the sex scandal in the Catholic Church. A guy stranded on Mars wants to stay alive until he can be rescued in a year and a half. It's you name it

Alex Ferrari 29:59
Well be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Michael Hague 30:10
Whatever movie is out there, whatever is, is doing well or even getting made, it's based on a simple story. And then it's not about going off on a lot of tangents, or making that complicated. It's about keeping that straight through line, and then creating interesting and different and increasingly difficult obstacles for those characters to overcome. Now, the final thing, the last thing, and this is, in a way, the simplest, but it's just too many scripts I read are not professionally presented. It's like they're not properly formatted, which astonishes me because I've been around long enough that when I started, there were no, there was no such thing. There was barely computers, there were certainly no such thing as final draft or movie magic screenwriter, and you had to sort of set the margins on your typewriter and things like that. But now, all you got to do is invest in a formatting program, and you're pretty much home free, as far as that's concerned. And all you have to do is use spell checkers or get somebody who knows English to check it for spelling and grammar. And I see a lot of those errors in new scripts. And it's like, come on, spend 24 hours doing a little research or spend a buck to get the program. And you can make this look as good as any other script floating around Hollywood. So those three things, I think its simplicity, professionally presented, and most of all commercial.

Alex Ferrari 31:38
So Michael, you mentioned the term high concept. Can you explain to the audience what a high concept and low concept are?

Michael Hague 31:46
Yeah, well, I haven't really heard the term a low concept before but high concept gets bandied about a lot. And people have different definitions of it. But here's mine, a high concept idea is one that an audience will line up, or tune in to see the movie or the TV series, just based on what the logline is just based on what that movie is about. On a plot level. And high concept stories promise big conflict. And so a good example recently of a high concept movie that did very, very well was the Martian, because it's about a guy who's gets stranded on Mars, and now somehow has to survive, and face all of the elements on his foreign planet and stay alive long enough that the people on earth can send a spaceship to rescue him, let's say. So it sounds like the obstacles are going to be big. It's a genre kind of film, not just science fiction, but it's about someone needing to escape from a bad situation. Now, it comes with a stellar cast, and it got great reviews, and it's good to get nominated for Oscars, and so on. But a high concept does not depend on those things, high concepts or ideas that it doesn't matter who directed it, who's starring in it, what kind of reviews what kind of word of mouth or what kind of awards it gets. It's just the story idea. So jaws speed, those would be typical high concept kind of ideas. If a movie is much smaller, let's take another movie that's going to get a number of Oscar nominations. That was also one of my favorite movies this year called room. Okay, that's a story about a mother who's raised a child from birth in a nine foot by nine foot room, and the child's never seen the outside. So it's how would they what would happen in that situation? And then what would happen if they had the opportunity to go into the outside world? wonderful movie, but I don't think when you hear that story idea, you say yeah, I've got to see that. That sounds exciting. That sounds like an edgier seat suspense. So that movie was released slowly, you can usually tell when a movie is not as high a concept because the release powder will be just a few theaters, and then a little more a little more, because they want the word of mouth to build. Because movies that aren't high concept, low concept, as you, as you say, are dependent on criticism on reviews on word of mouth, on promotion and publicity on the stars that might be in that story. Now one last thing I want to say about high concept, it has absolutely nothing to do with artistic quality. You can have a high concept movie that's great. Martian is an example of that, in my opinion, you can have a high concept movie that is absolutely dreadful, and you can have a look low budget rd not high concept story. That's great. And you can have another one that's dreadful that we're not we're only talking about a commercial issue here.

Alex Ferrari 35:09
Got that makes perfect sense. Now do you have any tips on to screenwriters on how they can get their screen? screenplays actually read?

Michael Hague 35:21
Well, yeah, I wrote a whole book about it actually. So it's it's a tough question, because it's so big. There's so many different things that one can do and you consider, and in those two books we talked about, the book on pitching is all about how do you describe your story in 60 seconds, so that somebody want to read it. And writing screenplays that sell has a whole marketing section. But be that as it may, what I'd say most succinctly is, the smartest thing you can do. to market your script is to follow in the footsteps of those who've done it before. Okay. And the way you do that is you first of all, besides reading as much as you can interviews with screenwriters, especially newer ones, I mean, it's fine to hear the story of how William Goldman became a screenwriter, but it's got nothing to do with you. I mean, that was decades ago, and he's now hugely successful. Those are the, those are the screenwriters that usually get interviewed. But anytime you can see in a film magazine or on your podcast, if you interview someone who's new, but has managed to cross over and broken in, those are the people who have the stories about how they did it that are going to be most valuable. And you want to follow in their footsteps, meaning they might have entered contests, they might have gone to pitch March, they might have composed great cover letters or emails, what they have all done know there are two things they would all have in common one is they write, they write and they write and they write, I've never seen a successful screenwriter that didn't write regularly. That's not a marketing tool. It's just you got to keep writing, even while you're marketing one script to keep working on the other. And the other thing they did is network. And by that I mean they found situations where they could meet other people that could provide them with either more net more contacts or information on how to reach those people. And then beyond that, what you want to do is you want to target the people, you're going after some screenwriters who are trying to break in, they get that writer's guild list of all the agencies and they either limit themselves to the ones with asterisks. who say, well, we will look at unsolicited material, which is a mistake, because those are usually not very powerful agencies, or they send a mass email to everybody or they buy email lists and send it to everybody. And that just doesn't make sense, because 90% of the production companies in Hollywood are probably not going to be interested or be able to mount your particular script, what you want to do is look at movies that are similar, go to a website called the Internet Movie Database, find out who the producers of those movies are, and then contact the heads of development for those companies. Because if if whatever company produced the Martian, I mean, there's certainly scot free because that's really Scott directed it. But there are other companies involved, they obviously have been able to and are interested in bigger budget exciting action kinds of films, you probably wouldn't pursue those companies with room, that movie, I was just describing this very low budget, independent, small movie, and so on, you may if they've done other things like that, but figure out what movies yours is similar to and then go after the people who've made those movies before. And a couple of rules to as you're doing this. One is, as I said, you want to keep writing, you never want to stop writing just so you can market and the other is never wait for somebody else to keep moving forward. Don't send your script to somebody and even to say I'll get right back to you. Don't wait until they get right back to you before you start pursuing other people. Just always keep going after as many appropriate producers, agents, managers, or production companies as you can until you find the one that really is willing to make a deal with you.

Alex Ferrari 39:28
So Michael, what was the lesson that took you the longest to learn in the film business?

Michael Hague 39:32
I don't know if this is what you're going for, because it's not really a lesson about screenwriting or even necessarily the business it's a little bigger than that. But the lesson that I wish I had learned sooner is that the best way the best path to take is to concentrate on the things that I loved and Repeatedly eliminate the parts of what I'm doing that I wasn't enjoying. In other words, focus on what I wanted, or what I loved and not what I thought other people thought I should be doing. Because for a long time, when I came to Hollywood, I was trying to sort of break in or move up the ladder, doing existing jobs or doing them the way other people did. I felt for a while I, I know I can teach this. But I should be a screenwriter, even though I didn't really have a desire to write scripts myself, I like working with other writers, or I should be getting a development job at a studio or I should be doing this or then when I became a consultant, there were things about it, I didn't like I didn't like writing synopses. And I didn't like actually writing much of anything. And so over the years, what I realized is I can just eliminate the things I didn't like. And it wouldn't, it would actually enhance my career. Because the more I limited that I didn't like doing, the more successful I became as a consultant and as a speaker, and so on. Until now, when I do consultations, it's what I love to do. Because I like interacting with writers, I like to feel like a collaborator, I like long sessions, not quick wins. I hate doing notes. I like sitting down with people in the industry and hashing through the projects. I like speaking to groups that have invited me to come but I don't like advertising my own seminars, and I don't do that anymore. And I think if there's a broader lesson from that for anyone, it's make sure that whatever path you're on to keep checking and say, Is this still bringing me joy? And if the answer is at all, no, or if part of it is not say, is there a way to adjust what I'm doing so I get more of the joy and less of the seemingly necessary pain to get there. Now it doesn't mean in the early stages of your career as a screenwriter, anything else there aren't dues to be paid and there isn't some grunt work you got to go through. But at a certain point, you're going to find that there are things you're doing that make it worthwhile and other things that you feel like you got to put up with and the more you can let go the put up with stuff and the more you can stay with the worthwhile stuff. I think in the long run, you'll certainly be happier and probably more successful.

Alex Ferrari 42:30
That entire answer should be on a T shirt.

Michael Hague 42:35
For fat people,

Alex Ferrari 42:36
I was about to say you're gonna have to have a very large base bumper sticker. So Michael, this is a question I always ask all of my my guests. What was the most underrated film you've ever seen?

Michael Hague 42:50
I we should tell people I was queued for this. You sent me this one in advance. Yes, think about it. And I probably wouldn't have been hard to come up with because I use this movie as an example all the time. It's a movie called Lars and the real girl. love that movie. And it may be wrong to say it was underrated because Nancy Oliver who wrote the script actually was nominated for an Oscar. So that's not underrated. And it got good reviews. But it didn't do business. I mean, very few people went to see it. And I consider it one of the great romantic comedies ever. I just love talking about this movie. And I think the reason very few people saw it is because the logline is it's about a guy who falls in love with a sex doll. So it sounds either simi or kind of distasteful or broad R rated comedy, none of which it is. I mean, it's one of the sweetest actually most spiritual kind of movies. It has just a great love story at its core. It's one I love to talk about. I've actually done lectures just about that movie. And this is a chance for me to recommend everyone who's listening find it and see it. It's called Lars and the real girl.

Alex Ferrari 44:05
Yeah, with Ryan Gosling. It's Yeah, he was awesome in that movie. It was a great, great film. I love that movie. So Michael, what are your top three films of all time?

Michael Hague 44:13
Okay, well, I want to tell your listeners just by way of excuse just like the last one, you warned me that this was going to be a question. Yes. And so I emailed you back and said, I don't want that.

Alex Ferrari 44:26
And I begged you to answer it.

Michael Hague 44:28
We do this in every broadcast. And I said okay, what's what's my favorite movie? What was what was the question? my three favorite? Yeah, no, no specific order. So here's my answer. I was incapable of doing that. So here's what the answer I came up with the way the only way I could get even close was if I segmented them. Okay. Okay, so you're gonna have to put up with like nine titles here. Now. The first thing I thought is in terms of favorite movies, what are the three classic movies that I consider just absolutely great films that were very formative for me that maintain after all these years, they're still great movies. And the three I came up with were Casablanca. Still probably the greatest love story Hollywood has ever done. Psycho. Now, perhaps the scariest movie Hollywood has ever done. And Hitchcock's best, I think, unlike vertigo that most people regard and finally the Godfather, which if I had to pick the great hollywood movie, I would probably pick that one. So those are the three favorites in terms of these are great, great movies by any measure. I don't know how they could be improved. Then I thought, okay, the second set is what are three movies that are my favorites, because they meant a lot to me personally, as I was growing up, or as I was falling in love with movies. And the three I picked for that were number one. Bye bye, birdie. Because not not a great movie, although some great numbers but because it was a movie the first movie I remember having a crush on the star cuz Margo got on that treadmill, I was lost forever, that I saw repeatedly that I just loved and, and was just and that I remember going back to see multiple times. So I it's sort of beyond guilty pleasure to say apologetically say to me, the second one was Miracle on 34th Street. My favorite, I think, still probably the best Christmas movie much better than It's a Wonderful Life in my opinion. And that meant a lot to me, because I always love Christmas, but because at one point in my life, I was a department store Santa myself and I tried to model myself after Edmund gwenn in Miracle on 34th Street, so I'm cool. It's it's probably more information. Yeah, that's very, that's a very cool story. Okay, and the third one is A Fistful of Dollars. It's a movie, my favorite Western ever, although if you take that whole man with no name trilogy, it'd be hard to pick sir. But that was an important movie. To me, maybe this is more career as well as personal because it's, I saw it when I was just starting to take some film classes, they didn't have filmmaking at the University of Oregon when I went there, but they had like a film appreciation or a film studies class. And I was learning about all these big name directors, and I happen to see it. And I started noticing a lot going on in the movie underneath the plot, and I actually took notes and sort of compose this whole analysis of what was going on underneath. And that's what I think I really internalize the idea that there's the plot of a movie, and then there's all the layers underneath that can be added that are not, instead of an exciting, in this case, action filled Western or plot or superficial story, if you want to say that, but grow out of that, and are intertwined with that, to make it terrific. So that was the second group. And then the last group that was impossible was really probably what you're asking, and that is, what are my desert island movies, what are the movies that I could see again, and again and again. And the three I came up with, although with if you gave me another day, I'd probably come up with six different ones. One is Sleepless in Seattle, because it's probably still my favorite romantic comedy. It also meant a lot to my career, because it was the first movie I ever lectured about, in its totality at a at a seminar at a conference once. And as I was in the middle of the lecture, I noticed in the back of the room was Jeff arch who wrote it. And I thought, oh my god, I'm talking about his script. And afterwards, he came up and said, everything you said about that movie, it was what I wanted people to get. And we've been friends ever since. So that was cool. So I picked that the Bourne trilogy for action movies, the all three of the Bourne Identity born, you know, supremacy and so on. And, finally, Love Actually, we're talking about Christmas and romantic comedy. And one of my all time favorite writers, Richard Curtis, and I just think is a movie that I could see once a year and often do and still like it. So that's the best I could do with three.

Alex Ferrari 49:34
That was actually one of the best answers to that question we've had on the show,

Michael Hague 49:38
Because I cheated. I drew outside the love.

Alex Ferrari 49:43
Alright, so last question, Where can people find you?

Michael Hague 49:48
Actually, there's only one place people need to go to find out about my coaching about the products I've created, including my books and the heroes two journeys that you mentioned. And also read a lot of articles and Question and Answers I've done and that's to my website it's story mastery.com str y and then mastery with a Y on the end story mastery.com and if you go there there's a lot of things that you can link to and see that I think will sort of expand on some of the questions you asked me and other things about everything to do with the storytelling actually not just screenwriting.

Alex Ferrari 50:29
I will definitely put links to all put I'll put a link to that in the show notes Michael thank you so much for for being on the show we've thrown out a lot of great great nuggets so thank you.

Michael Hague 50:39
Oh good well thank you for having me it was an honor and great fun I enjoyed this a lot and if we do it again I'll come up with three different movies or nine different movies for you how's that

Alex Ferrari 50:49
Thank you so much. I really love talking to Michael it was it was it was a treat to really get to know Michael and now work with him a little bit putting this new course together the story and screenplay blueprint so as promised I'm going to give you guys the link to get the course which we retailing for $67 but you're going to get it for 25 bucks and it'll be 25 bucks for a little while so you have to hurry and get it quick before we before the sale runs out. But it is a launch so all you have to do is go to any film hustle.com Ford slash story blueprint that's indiefilmhustle.com/storyblueprint and that will give you guys directly a link to the course and 25 bucks so definitely check it out guys, I think you really will get a lot out of it. And all the links and things that we talked about in this episode are at the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com/053. As always, please head over to filmmakingpodcast.com that's filmmakingpodcast.com and leave us a honest review of the show. It really, really helps us out a lot and getting the word out and getting all this amazing, great information to other filmmakers who need to hear it. So as always, keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive. I'll talk to you guys soon.

YOUTUBE VIDEO

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage – Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. AudibleGet a Free Filmmaking or Screenwriting Audiobook
  3. Rev.com – $1.25 Closed Captions for Indie Filmmakers – Rev ($10 Off Your First Order)

IFH 049: How to Pitch Your Film Like a Pro with Stephanie Palmer

Ever wanted to learn the dark craft of being able to pitch your story idea successfully? Stephanie Palmer has made it her life’s mission to help people do just that. Stephanie Palmer is a former MGM Pictures executive and best-selling author of the book “Good in a Room: How To Sell Yourself (And Your Ideas) And Win Over Any Audience

Stephanie Palmer was the Director of Creative Affairs for MGM where she supervised the acquisition, development, and production of feature films. During my time at MGM, she was named by The Hollywood Reporter as one of the “Top 35 Executives Under 35.” Prior to MGM, she worked at Jerry Bruckheimer Films.

She has heard thousands of pitches. She knows how to and how not to pitch your screenplay or story idea. She worked on films like Legally BlondeArmageddonCon Air and was even on an intern on Titanic, there’s a very inserting story there.

Learn how to pitch your screenplay like a pro with Stephanie Palmer.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:51
Today guys, we have Stephanie Palmer on the show. She wrote an amazing book called good in her room, how to sell yourself and your ideas and win over any audience. She is a very, very cool lady. She's has a heck of a bunch of cool stories we talked about being an intern on the set of Titanic, which she was also a drug mule, or a mule, not a drug mule, but a mule of some sort. We'll go into that story later. She's also worked on amazing films like Legally Blonde one of my favorite Armageddon, Con Air and also work for Jerry Bruckheimer pictures where she got a lot of experience as well as being a director of creative affairs at MGM, where she listened to 1000s of pitches over the course of her career where she then decided that this was a space of, of the of the film industry that needed real help, because people really had no idea how to pitch themselves, how to pitch their stories, how to pitch their screenplays, how a director could pitch their their vision for a film, all of those things. So she put it all together in a book, and has now made it her lifelong mission to help people not only filmmakers, but people to help show them how to sell and pitch their ideas. Now one thing that went little bit wrong technically on this episode is I was barely able to get Stephanie on the phone. She's very, very busy. And I was only able to get her over the phone. So the audio quality is going to be a little bit less than you're used to, but still very acceptable. But the information on the show is remarkable. So sit back and enjoy my conversation with Stephanie Palmer.

Stephanie, thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate it. Can you tell me a little bit about how you got in the business?

Stephanie Palmer 2:36
Sure. I started as an unpaid intern on the movie Titanic when I was a senior in college. And then I moved from that job to being an assistant at Jerry Bruckheimer films. And I worked on movies like Armageddon and enemy of the state and conair. And I worked, I was Assistant to the President. So we were involved in all aspects of development and production. And then I moved to MGM as an assistant, and then got promoted to the story editor where I was in charge of supervising the staff of readers, and making sure that all the scripts that came into the studio were properly handled. And then after that, I got promoted to being the director of creative affairs, where my job was basically to help determine which projects we wanted to purchase, develop and produce. So I read lots and lots of screenplays and heard lots and lots of pitches.

Alex Ferrari 3:29
Okay, now, with now, you just dropped that little bit like you were an intern on Titanic, so I'm not gonna let that go. Please tell me a little bit about that experience.

Stephanie Palmer 3:44
Well, I can tell you that my first job on that was to drive boxes that I was not to open over the Mexican border. Because I look like a nice innocent girl from Iowa, which I am and I think the production staff thought, Well, she's not going to get stopped by Border Patrol. In retrospect, I never should have done that and I would not do that again. But as I was a college student and desperate like wow, I don't know anything. I'm going to be on this giant movie how exciting I'll do whatever they asked me. That was my first job.

Alex Ferrari 4:19
Wow, so you were meal basically?

Stephanie Palmer 4:22
Pretty much Yeah, I don't I truly don't know what was in the boxes. But it was very clear I was there you don't know what the No, I have no idea. Yeah, no.

Alex Ferrari 4:34
And I had a few friends of mine who worked on on Titanic too, and I and I've heard the legendary stories of Mr. Cameron and and you know how he was back then. I'm assuming you can concur.

Stephanie Palmer 4:48
Yes. I mean, the funny thing was is I one of my jobs was also to be in the production office and just be basically like a runner or anything that they needed and so I did my best to just disappear When I'd be there unless there was something that was needed, and it was pretty amazing to get to sponge in that information and see how decisions were made, to see who whose opinion was listened to, and who was ignored, just to be sort of in that pressure cooker of so many decisions happening. I mean, there was so much at stake. At that time. No one thought they were making a huge, financially successful movie, everyone thought that it was going to be the most expensive movie ever made. You know the bombs. Right.

Alex Ferrari 5:31
Right, right. Yeah, I've heard I've heard. I mean, we've all studied and know that story quite well. But yes, it's so interesting to hear. It's so interesting to hear from from somebody who was actually inside the belly of the beast. So Young like you just starting off like you were a seasoned pro in the belly of the beast, you were a innocent little lamb.

Stephanie Palmer 5:50
Yes, I was totally innocent. Don't misunderstand me that anyone was consulting my opinion on certain things? I mean, maybe what kind of cups we should have, you know, in the coffee machine or something. But was I physically there? And did I get to witness you know, get to be on the giant set, where on the water where one side looks like the Titanic. And the other side is a giant construction site with the big, you know, industrial cranes and elevators, and all of the extra speaking Spanish and they're beautiful, you know, Titanic gear, playing cards and drinking soda and whatever.

Alex Ferrari 6:32
So I mean, so you go right from Titanic, then I guess you go to another small company like Jerry Bruckheimer, which is, you become an assistant there. And you tell me what you learned while being at that company, which is obviously in its in its heyday. And he's still very big, obviously today. But there was a moment in time for about 20 years to serve more than Jerry was making some of the biggest movies going out in Hollywood. So how was it? How was it? What did you learn from that experience?

Stephanie Palmer 7:04
It was fascinating. The best part of my job was that I got to listen in on phone calls. And it was my first experience, realizing that it's a common Hollywood practice where executives would have an assistant and the assistant is listening in, you know, on both sides. So there'll be two people having a conversation, but there's actually for people listening in that that's standard practice. But it was fascinating to me that I got to really listen into all the negotiations and all the pitches and any, you know, rolling calls and placing calls for my boss, and just really getting to see how deals happen at that really high level. Because obviously, I mean, at that time, but still is definitely the case. People want to be in business with Jerry because he gets movies and TV shows made at a very high level at a very high level. People want to work with them.

Alex Ferrari 7:55
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I remember the first time I was on a call with an executive. And that happened to me, like the assistant just like, you know, hey, Tom, did you get that and just then I'm like, What the hell just happened was tying

Stephanie Palmer 8:10
in the charade, it's so silly. That's a charade that people pretend that the person isn't listening in but they both know that they are and it's so silly, but

Alex Ferrari 8:20
It is. Now while you were at a Jerry Bruckheimer his company, did you hear any pitches that actually that we that turned into a movie that we might know or have a TV show that might know?

Stephanie Palmer 8:30
I'm sure. Remember the Titans was pitched while I was there. Coyote Ugly was pitched while I was there. Is it called down on under I'm thinking there was a Scott Rosenberg kangaroo project. From my head, whatever that one was,

Alex Ferrari 8:49
that was pitch Jerry was Jerry McDonald was in that right?

Stephanie Palmer 8:53
Yeah, that one. A lot of TV division was basically just starting at that time. So I mean, they just kind of exploded out of the gates. So a lot of TV shows were pitched during that time. And they just have a huge development slate. So there were there were always multiple projects that you know, from deep development, development, pre production, in production and post production basically all happening at the same time.

Alex Ferrari 9:22
So you know, I mean, you have exactly as I say, at an early part in your career, you had access to basically the upper echelon of Hollywood, essentially, whether you being an intern or an assistant, you were you were playing with the boys not maybe at their level yet, but at least you would there you were a fly on the wall, and that must have been invalidly.

Stephanie Palmer 9:41
So it was, it was an incredible experience.

Alex Ferrari 9:46
Now, let me ask you a question, you heard 1000s of pitches, I'm sure 1000s and 1000s of pitches over the years. Why do some pitches connect and others don't? Is there a secret sauce or some sort

Stephanie Palmer 9:59
I think There are some things that people do well when pitching that anyone can implement. And it doesn't matter the kind of project that you have, I mean, some pitches, some projects are naturally more easily pitched. You know, a lot of comedies are generally easier to pitch, or movies that are simpler in plot than character driven pieces or multiple storylines that are, you know, interwoven project like, a lot harder to give a verbal pitch for. But for any project, one of my simple the simplest piece of advice, but that so many people neglect to do is to lead with genre. So if you're going to give a verbal pitch, it's that genre that gives context to the listener. And without that crucial piece of information, it's easy for the person who's hearing the pitch to make incorrect assumptions about their story and get confused. So for example, the writer tells me that he's got a story that involves the CIA, I could assume it's a thriller, like Three Days of the Condor, when it's really a drama, like the Good Shepherd or a comedy, like Meet the Parents. So simply saying My project is a romantic comedy, or my project is an action thriller, is the first, my first tip, it's so simple, it's those it's something that anyone can do. But it's shocking how rare that is.

Alex Ferrari 11:32
Really, people just going into their story, and that tell you the context of their story, because they forget it. So

Stephanie Palmer 11:38
thriller, and spy is a spy, there's a spy, they start talking all about the spy, and then the spy start. So you either think it's a drama or a thriller, or a comedy, but then whatever you think the character starts acting in a really ridiculous way. You're like, What are they talking about? Why are these people dying? I thought it was a comedy, or vice versa. And so just simply describing the genre at the beginning is key.

Alex Ferrari 12:02
Okay, now, are there beats in a pitch? Like, is there a pace that you should follow? Is there some sort of code like, you know, obviously, there's a structure for screenplays? Is there a structure to a pitch?

Stephanie Palmer 12:13
There can be if it's not one size fits all, because obviously, projects are so different. I'm looking for a pitch to be memorable and repeatable. Because it's extremely rare that the first time you pitch a project, someone says, Yes, I want to buy it. The way that projects are purchased is that you pitch it to one person, maybe you pitch it to a producer, and the producer says, Oh, I'm really interested. Okay, now let me take it to a financier. Let me take it to a studio and they re pitch it. And then the studio executive, you know, Junior studio executive says, Okay, let me pitch it to my boss, who's the president of the studio. It's like, you need to have something that's repeatable, and memorable so that if someone's hearing it for the first time, they can say, Okay, I got it, I'm going to go re pitch this to someone else on my team or someone up the chain.

Alex Ferrari 13:00
What you just explained, sounds just torturous. All the bureaucracy that goes on to like, I gotta be this guy than this guy. And this guy, and this, you might have to be pitched this thing 1015 times

Stephanie Palmer 13:12
before if you're 110 50. I mean, 100. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 13:17
yeah, you're right, because you're constantly pitching to the actors you're taking pitching to different. Yeah, I guess you're right. Any actor

Stephanie Palmer 13:22
you know, you should be in it. Here's why other executives financier's, that's a huge process, the marketing department. I mean, all the way and, and at the end, a lot of times, if it's a really good pitch, it's that same pitch that's frequently used in the trailer to pitch the movie to a potential audience.

Alex Ferrari 13:43
So pitching is basically a skill set that most people don't have. And it's probably one of the most crucial in filmmaking in general,

Stephanie Palmer 13:52
I think it's the second most crucial, I think, one you have to be able to write if you're a writer, you have to be able to write without that. There's nothing. But if you have that skill, and that talent, the next most important as far as having a successful career is being able to pitch effectively. People who are good in a room, like if there's two people who have an equal equally, beautifully written script, the person who pitches it more effectively, their movie is going to get made, they're going to get hired.

Alex Ferrari 14:20
It's all about marketing. And this is just another form of marketing, marketing. The idea of is you're basically marketing the idea, exactly. pitches. So how long? How long do you have as a general statement, to grab someone with a pitch? Do you have 30 seconds? Do you have a minute or before they just start tuning out? Like how long do you really have to grab somebody or is it just varies per person, I guess.

Stephanie Palmer 14:48
I know that I don't have a specific number. I feel like it's under 90 seconds. I mean, it's amazing how long 90 seconds can be like for example I'm going to be leading the pitch conference at the American Film market this Saturday, and just this week have been reviewing, so anyone who wants to pitch from the stage submits a video. And to me, and then I review them with this other panel, and we decide who's going to pitch from the stage. And those pitches are limited to two minutes. But it is amazing how long two minutes is. I mean, it is so hard to pay attention for a two minute pitch.

Alex Ferrari 15:29
Yeah, absolutely. That's sad many, many, many film festivals watching the short films sometimes and you just features and use like, Oh, my God, just stop. With this is the longest 20 minutes longest five minutes of my life,

Stephanie Palmer 15:47
right? And you You want it? Yes, you want it to be great, but two minutes can be very, very long. So the goal for an effective pitch is really to pitch it as simply and as short as you can make it. That still conveys the idea clearly.

Alex Ferrari 16:05
Now, what's the what most turns you off about a pitch?

Stephanie Palmer 16:12
I mean, if there's nothing that makes you care about any of the characters or want to find out what's going to happen. I mean, I think the surprising thing about a lot of pitches is just how, when you that the people are so close to their project, they love it, they know it so well, that they have lost perspective on what someone who's hearing it for the first time needs to know to be able to understand. I mean, a lot of pitches are totally incomprehensible. They're all over the place. You really can't say I have no as someone will finish pitching, I'll be like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Who is the main character? What is the setting? What happens in the story? What happens in the beginning, middle and an end? There are a lot of in No idea.

Alex Ferrari 16:58
Because Because writers they just they just know the story so well that they assume certain things that they're pitching, and forget those little details.

Stephanie Palmer 17:08
And it's totally understandable. Yeah, completely, it's totally understandable. Because you're so close to the characters, you're so close into all the details. But you forget, you know the characters so well. But the audience or the person listening is hearing that for the very first time.

Alex Ferrari 17:24
Right, exactly. Now, this is something I know a lot of people don't do. And I'd love for to get some insight from you what they should do. What kind of research should a writer or filmmaker do on a company or an executive before they pitched the story?

Stephanie Palmer 17:40
Great question. This is so key. So key to having a successful pitch. It is figuring out basically, any individual company studio production company is looking to replicate their past success. So if they have had a movie or TV show that has done really well, the more that your project can be, if it's in a similar genre, that's great. If it has a similar main character, or millea, or budget range, even anything that's similar to what they have done in the past that has done well, it's just going to increase the odds that your project will sell. It doesn't mean that they're looking to make the identical movie again, although, frankly, sometimes people are, it's more like, it's more like it's more like, okay, they really figured out how to market this indie thriller, or they really figured out how to market this mainstream High School comedy. And so they know what that audience is looking for. They know the channels to get this out there. They know what it takes. And so they already are looking for Okay, we figured it out what this one now where some worth another project that we can, you know, release next year at the same time for the same audience that's going to deliver the same experience that this previous success did.

Alex Ferrari 19:08
So a lot of times people just go ahead. No, that's a lot of times a lot of people will, you know, some people I'm imagining would have at some point in time have pitched horror movies to Disney.

Stephanie Palmer 19:20
Oh, absolutely. Definitely. Definitely. And that's just lack of research. Yeah. And so it's figuring out what has, what has this company done in the past? What do they currently have in development? Anything that you can find out about the specific people that you're meeting? One of the questions that I like to ask in a meeting is what's something that you're excited about this year, or something, you know, a sort of open ended question that gives the executive or the producer that you're meeting, a chance to brag about something that they're working on, you know, like, Oh, we just made this big deal with this project. I'm really excited about it, but it also gives you an insight into what's working well, for that person.

Alex Ferrari 20:05
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Stephanie Palmer 20:15
So if there's a way for your project to have similar themes or similar budget or similar timeframe, or any of the aspects, you know, you can tell what's important to the person by asking them to brag about themselves, basically,

Alex Ferrari 20:32
that is a beautiful tip. It's a really, really beautiful tip because that is anytime you can have somebody that you're trying to pitch feel good about themselves and talk about

Stephanie Palmer 20:45
they're just gonna like you, you know, you're getting them like you because you're making them feel good about themselves.

Alex Ferrari 20:52
It's it's, it's communication one on one, but it's something that a lot of people don't do. So can you talk a little bit about the business side of being a writer, a lot of writers just like, I just want to write, I just want to this, you know, I just want to tell my story. I don't want to get into the Hollywood business side of stuff, I'm like, well, then you're never ever going to make it as a as a writer or the filmmaker. So can you talk a little bit from your perspective of writers, because I know you work a lot with writers, what they should do, how to they structure their career, what house should they come out to the town? What kind of projects should it things like that.

Stephanie Palmer 21:30
I'm happy to talk anything business, I'm happy to talk money, any anything you want to talk about. I'm happy to talk about it. For me, for writers, the biggest mistake that I see many writers who want to break in do is that they have a number, they know that they need to have more than one project, or a lot of people know that. So which is the case, you definitely need to have, at minimum two to three really polished projects before you start marketing yourself and really try to break in. It's not a business where you're one, it's going to be a one hit wonder, like people always say to me, oh, I'm willing to be a one hit wonder, I want to be a one hit wonder. But that really isn't possible. It's too competitive, it's too competitive. And people need to know, agents are only interested in working with people who are going to have enough longevity and enough projects to be able to sell multiple projects. Because the first projects rarely sell for very much, the agent makes very little money at the beginning. So they want to know, oh, I'm going to be this with this person and representing them over a period of years and a number of deals to make it financially worth me investing in this person. So there really isn't the way to do it as a one hit wonder, in general. But as I was saying before, the biggest mistake that I see a lot of people make is that they write a bunch of different projects in different genres. And also different mediums like they might have a TV show, they might have a reality show. They also have a indie thriller, and they have a studio comedy. And they believe, or they think, Okay, this is really going to show that I have a lot of range, and I can write a bunch of different things. But unfortunately, how that is perceived is more like the jack of all trades, master of none. And that executive the decision makers who are hiring writers want to hire specialists, like they want to hire the person who knows everything that there is to know about comic book movies for their comic book movie, or they want to hire the person who has watched, every horror movie knows the ins and outs of everything that's coming out in the future has been done in the past, what are the classics and make sure that their horror movie really delivers for that, you know, the horror fanatic audience, they don't want someone who they're not looking to hire someone to write a bunch of different projects, it's really the way to break through is to be a specialist in one area. So I recommend that people develop multiple projects in a similar genre. They don't have to all be identical, but at least closely related so that they can show that they have a specialty. Then when they break in, and they've they've shown that they have the facility and expertise in one area. At that point, it is so much easier to branch out and do something else. But you can't try and break in with a wide variety of genres and mediums like it's it's different. It's a different business. It's a different career path to become a TV writer than it is to become a film screenwriter.

Alex Ferrari 24:37
Oh absolutely. It's two different worlds what TV writers are, guess I would imagine that well TV you work a lot more like you You have a steady paycheck. If you're if you're on a show as opposed to screenwriter. Maybe one year you get paid maybe the other year a

Stephanie Palmer 24:54
different model. Yeah, it's a different model, but also the TV writing is generally done in the US. First, like it is an office job where you go to the office and you work with a team of people, whereas screenwriters generally work by themselves at home or, you know, maybe they have an office space, but they're working solely on their own. And on a project that has a long timeframe, whereas TV is tight deadlines, working on a team in an office, extremely intensely.

Alex Ferrari 25:23
Right, exactly, exactly. Yeah, that's a good point. Because I think a lot of filmmakers and writers in general make that mistake, like I'm going to, as a filmmaker, you're like, I'm going to make a comedy. And I'm going to make a horror movie that I'm going to make an action movie and you send it out, and people are like, well, what are you like you? You can't do that just yet.

Stephanie Palmer 25:40
It's not Yeah, and that agents don't know how to sell people who have a bunch of different projects. So it makes them less interested. And something that a lot of people say to me also is like, well, but I don't want to be pigeonholed. And I found that. But I say, why wouldn't you want to be pigeonholed, that means that you are known for doing something really, really well. And likely you are paid extremely well. Like the people who are known for doing something very specific, like whether it's the Michael Bay or its David Mamet or any Guillermo del Toro anyone, anyone who you can who has an identifiable niche or brands you're like, Yeah, but people keep coming back to that person. They keep offering the movies, they keep offering them more and more money to do movies in that genre. It doesn't mean that you always have to say yes to those things. But wouldn't you so much rather be in that position where you're turning down work because you have this great reputation in a particular area? then having no one want to work with you and not having any jobs? Because you're worried about being pigeonholed?

Alex Ferrari 26:48
Right I'm still looking forward to the Quentin Tarantino comedy slap.

Stephanie Palmer 26:57
I will be doing that as well.

Alex Ferrari 27:00
I think I think people could argue that a lot of his movies are a little bit

Stephanie Palmer 27:05
comedy. Absolutely.

Alex Ferrari 27:06
He's is he is a he's a wonderful comedic writer. But I want like a Naked Gun naked go. kwinter Geno's, Naked Gun that I would I would you know, Tarantino's airplane, you know, that's what I'm looking for.

Stephanie Palmer 27:23
Someone will make a short of that and put it on YouTube, I'm sure.

Alex Ferrari 27:27
I'm sure I'm gonna be a perfect example. You said Michael Bay, like, I mean, Michael Bay is Michael Bay. And he is he's, he's great. As well at what he does, he makes amazing pretty pictures if you like, and as a filmmaker, you don't like him as a filmmaker. At least he is known for doing that. You can argue that his images are just stunning. Like what he they are on the screen. They're stunning. And there's nobody there. Honestly, there is nobody else in the business who does what he does. Like they call it Bay ham. It's an actual term for it. You know, it's like it. You know, when anytime you get like a Terran Tino is, you know, when you get to that level of specialty. And you know, Woody Allen that it will it will the Allen asked Robert? Yes, yes. You know, then you have arrived at a certain level in your career where like, that's a niche. That's that's the specific thing they do. And now you know, I mean, look at Spielberg for God's sakes, we start off in a horror movie, basically a thriller with Jaws, and I blew him up. He did a couple before that, but, but duel was similar. And then he kind of branched off into other things. But it took him time to get out of that. And then we will talk about 1941. Because he doesn't want to talk about 1940. So let me ask you, what inspired you to create good in a room and give back to writers and filmmakers? Well, I

Stephanie Palmer 28:49
had been an executive for a number of years, and I felt I had gotten to work on all these different projects. And I really liked the production process. And I loved the development process. But the life of being a studio executive is very stressful. And there really are breaks. I mean, it's a it's a job where you have to be on call 24 hours a day, and I just sort of saw my future and thinking, How much longer do I want this to be my day to day existence? And I knew that the end was coming. It wasn't something where I said, Okay, now I want to move up and be, you know, work my way up to being a studio president or CEO, something like that. That was it just came to a point where that wasn't the lifestyle that I wanted to have. And so I was thinking, well, how can I take this experience that I've had, and take the best part of my job, which is working with writers, that's the part that I love and would do all the time anytime? How could I make that what I do on a day to day basis, and so I thought about it for a while and took some business classes and decided that I would start a consulting firm so when I left MGM, I started getting a room It's now been almost 10 years, which is hard to believe. And I

Alex Ferrari 30:05
You're 21, aren't you?

Stephanie Palmer 30:07
Yes, I am absolutely. I I'm aging backwards. I so I started working one on one, just coaching writers who were pitching projects. And out of that I was interviewed on some TV shows and got a book deal. And so I wrote my book, also called good in the room. And that was published by Random House. And then it continued to expand my consulting business and now have created some online courses. Just because I wanted I knew that one, I can't consult with everybody that wants to just because I'm one person and you know, it's not a scalable business to work one on one you can only I can only meet with so many people in a day. And then that I also wanted to make the information that I share in console's in helping people pitch more effectively and sell their scripts that I wanted that to be available to people wherever they were in the US, especially if they didn't live in Los Angeles. And for a lot of people. I know living in Los Angeles isn't possible, but they still want to get their work considered. And so I've created an online course, that is called How to be a professional writer. And it is a series of videos and ebooks that people can work through to really see how projects are sold, what they need to do to get their work considered.

Alex Ferrari 31:28
Very cool. Very cool. Not Can you tell me a little bit about because I saw, I saw online a video of yours that you were talking about your experience pitching good in a room to the publishers talk a little bit about that experience, which is ironic, but yet very entertaining.

Stephanie Palmer 31:46
Well, so I was interviewed on NPR, the business, which is awesome show that's still going on, it's still on the air, or on the radio. And after I was on the business, I got a phone call from an agent, actually one of the biggest book agents in the world, even though I didn't know him. And he said, You know, I think that what you have is worthy of being a book, I think you should write it, why don't you write a book proposal and then come to New York, and I think I can help you sell it. I was like, This never happens. But amazing, great. Okay, I'll do it. And so I ran out and got every book about how to write a book proposal and put together my proposal and went to New York, was all excited and got into the first meeting with publisher and they were asking me, you know, like, sat down on the couch in the meeting. And there's the executives, and they're like, you know, so tell me about your book. And I just totally froze, because I had not ever been in the position of being the writer actually pitching. I was always the person on the other side of the desk, asking him questions of the writer. And so even though I, obviously my book is called good in a room. In that first meeting, I absolutely wasn't, it was mortifying, and then I went back to my hotel room and got my act together and was like, Oh, my gosh, that's horrible. And thankfully, I had other meetings that week where I, you know, focused on, I got my materials together, and I then was able to deliver a good meeting. But it was kind of a shocking role reversal that you would think I would have known ahead of time, but it all happened so fast that I just, I was caught

Alex Ferrari 33:25
off guard. You were caught off guard. And then thank God your books around now to help people like

Stephanie Palmer 33:33
I can go back and read my own book The next time to make sure that I prepared. Exactly.

Alex Ferrari 33:41
So I'm at it when you were at MGM, you were basically the gatekeeper, right, the first level of getting movies made, right. Yep. So are there Can you tell me any funny stories of a pitch that you were just like, what is this?

Stephanie Palmer 33:58
Well, there were certainly people who would come in costume. There was one gentleman who came in wearing only a diaper and holding a large samurai sword. That standard out.

Alex Ferrari 34:10
I love that. I love that movie. By the way, that's my favorite for samurai sword movie.

Stephanie Palmer 34:19
There also was a couple brothers sister writing team who were pitching a romantic comedy and they were acting out the main characters until the point that they were leaning in for a kiss. Oh, um, they didn't kiss but it was extremely uncomfortable. There also was someone of this poor gentleman who was so nervous and I think he'd been drinking. But he left he was so nervous and sweaty that he left a writer shaped sweat stain on my couch.

Alex Ferrari 34:57
Brilliant Yeah. room the second edition.

Stephanie Palmer 35:04
It would be called Bad in a room. Yeah, bad in a room? Yes, it's

Alex Ferrari 35:08
a sequel bad in a room. Wow. So I'm assuming that people that come in and costume, that's not a good sign, or is that have you have you guys gotten the job?

Stephanie Palmer 35:18
I mean, it's funny. I generally don't like gimmicks like that. I mean, I think because really you're especially at the studio level, you're going to, if you hire this person, it's going to be for, you know, a minimum of about $100,000, you're going to be working with them over a year, it's not like you just buy their project, and then say, Sayonara never talked to them again, you're going to be developing the project with this person. And so you want them to be a professional. So in general, I'm not a fan of gimmicks. But there are times and there certainly are stories of people who have brought in some sort of Prop or video reel or something that really tells the story in a unique way. So it's not that I'm so I can't say no visual aids ever. But in general, things that are gimmicky don't really, in my opinion, don't really help the the story you want, you want to be able to tell the story in a really compelling way that the executive can see the movie and then say, yes, this is a movie I want to see.

Alex Ferrari 36:20
Now, you brought a good point up when you said video reel, Are there times where people come in and use video as a pitch tool. Like they literally just play a DVD of a story either. How would we send proof of concept? Is it done talking? Is it animatics, what

Stephanie Palmer 36:38
all of the above is visual aids, if they have any sort of animation, or there's some sort of creature or they want to show visual, a sense of, especially if they want to direct certainly that's even more common. But but but people are doing more and more demos to prove the concept that they're pitching. This is also kind of a slippery slope. Because especially at the studio level, people have such high expectations for production value that even though it may be amazing, and it is amazing the things that filmmakers can do you know, from their home computer, it may not live up to what a studio can do, because their budget is just so obscenely high for creating, you know, a trailer or proof of concept reel or something. But there definitely have been people who, who can create something that's really compelling. And they they need to show it in video for a movie to get made. And that does happen with some frequency certainly.

Alex Ferrari 37:39
So I, I don't know if you knew this, but I come from a post production background. And I've been a VFX supervisor and post supervisor and all sorts everything in posts I've done at one point or another. And in any filmmakers many times will, you were saying the high level of production value. They a lot of independent film that tried to do visual effects, they'll do them and they'll try to be so ambitious with it. And I keep telling them like, you know, sometimes I get this conversation of like, Alright, so I have this shot. Did you see that shot in Avengers? I'm like, you need to stop right there. You can't afford craft services or the coffee budget Avengers. Okay? Let it go. You need to do something that's within the realm of doing what you can do very, very well, as a beautiful mind to be so ambitious, you know, I would rather be able to hit a nail on a hammer really, really well and try to build the house by myself beautifully

Stephanie Palmer 38:35
said, totally support that. Yes. Second.

Alex Ferrari 38:40
So, um, are there any final advice you would give on delivering an amazing pitch?

Stephanie Palmer 38:48
Um, let's see. I will say that. Um, well, one thing that is super common, that is also easy for people not to do is don't give a positive opinion of your own work. So for example, this is a great story, and you're gonna love it. I mean, how many times have you heard that right? Or this is gonna be amazing, right? So just like every parent, including me thinks their child is brilliant. And every dog owner thinks that their pet is adorable. It's expected that you are a fan of your own work. But some other things to say. Besides not to say Besides, you're going to love this or like don't say this will be number one at the box office. This is going to win the Oscar for Best Picture. This has great international appeal. It's really really funny. It's commercial, any of that sort of stuff. Instead let the listener form their own opinion.

Alex Ferrari 39:44
That's excellent. Excellent advice. Now when you when you're talking you brought you brought a question to mind. I've always heard that. A lot of times when you pitching, you should. You should try to be like it's Pulp Fiction. kangaroo jack?

Stephanie Palmer 40:02
kangaroo jack by the movie you thought of it? Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 40:04
I know. Obviously, like people combined, it's like the matrix meats, you know, you know, unnecessary roughness? I don't know, right? Yeah, those people do that good. Is that that? Is that good or bad?

Stephanie Palmer 40:21
I'm anti. This means that phenomenon, a lot of people promoted. But those are not the people who are buying projects, it is important for you to have an answer. When someone asks you, what project is yours? Most likely? Because that is a very common question. So you do want to have an answer for that. And a lot of times what people are asking is really about tone. Like, how broad is the comedy? Or how severe is the violence? Or the you know, how serious is the sex? Is it just light handed? Are you really seeing, you know, penetration, or whatever it is. They're really asking about tone then. But people often misconstrue this to think that it's about plot or about characters. And so if people lead with this meets that, what often happens is that the person who's listening is going to be going along sort of ticking in their mind. How is this most like Pulp Fiction? How is this like kangaroo jack, where's the kangaroo? Where's the whatever, instead of thinking instead of listening to the story as an original idea, they're just like listening to it as a hack of these two things. And I don't think that's the best way to present a project. And so often the way that people choose this means that I mean, they're totally bizarre and totally off so that you're sitting there listening, you're like, this is like kangaroo jack, or whatever it is. And so that's, that's not so do have an answer for what your project is most like particularly regarding the tone. But don't lead with this means that

Alex Ferrari 41:58
and if you do have that title, or that movie in your in your back pocket, try not to choose a movie that's bombed. Oh, really? It's really like

Stephanie Palmer 42:13
I mean, in my first studio meeting, when I was an executive, and I had found a project that was really like election you remember the Reese Witherspoon? I mean, elections, a great movie. So I was like, This is gonna be the next election and my boss looks across the table at me. And he was like, never say that movie again. Like, okay,

Alex Ferrari 42:34
because they might

Stephanie Palmer 42:34
have like, it was a box office bomb. Yeah, it bombed right. Even though it's a terrific movie, I think. So yeah. only keep your references to things that have been financially successful. If you're, if you're talking to anyone who's a potential buyer or investor financier. That's the they're looking for

Alex Ferrari 42:53
that simple tip. Because I've had people pitch me things, and they're like, it's kinda like Howard the Duck. I'm like, stop. Why are you Why? Why would I want to do that? Right? Yeah. How were the duck is a genius movie. It's very under appreciated. I'm just saying. Okay, so so my last two questions are the most hard hitting and tough so prepare yourself. I'm ready. What are your top What are your top three favorite films of all time? And what is the most one of the most underrated films that you've seen?

Stephanie Palmer 43:27
Oh my gosh, these are hard hitting for me because I really terrible at this kind of question because it's constantly changing. And every time another actor I hang up and I'm like, Oh, I didn't get the right answer. I will say at one of my favorites et at the moment Father of the Bride I know it's no you know, wow we ever made but it's just it's just a classic that's playing around in my house at this moment. And God, I really am totally drawing a blank. I mean, I'll watch Pulp Fiction any day. I mean, there's never enough time to watch that bazillion times and under appreciated let's think I'm trying to think of their election sure. I mean, I think that's totally under appreciated. I love that movie. And I would watch it again right now it's been years since I've seen it. So actually, I wonder if it still holds up but I bet it does.

Alex Ferrari 44:33
Right. And I think we could both agree that Pulp Fiction would have been better with a kangaroo and obviously I'm just saying I'm just say Jerry, Jerry miss out. I'm just saying.

Stephanie Palmer 44:49
Really.

Alex Ferrari 44:51
So where where can people find you?

Stephanie Palmer 44:55
I am easily finable on the web. My website is good in a room calm, and I have Lots of free resources available for filmmakers, lots of screenplays, people can read and also articles for people to help who are going to be pitching a project to give them advice about what they should and shouldn't do. So good in the room COMM And I'm also on Twitter at good in the room and have a Facebook page, also called Getting a rim.

Alex Ferrari 45:20
Great brandy,

Stephanie Palmer 45:21
Thank you. It's consistent, if nothing else,

Alex Ferrari 45:26
Exactly. Stephanie Thank you so much for for being on the show. I really do appreciate it.

Stephanie Palmer 45:32
It is my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Alex Ferrari 45:35
I don't know about you guys. But I'm going to be working on my pitches going forward after reading her book, Stephanie's book, good in a room, I really realized a lot of the things I was doing wrong in doing my pitches. And pitching is such an important part of filmmaking. As a director, as a screenwriter, as a costume designer, you're always pitching your ideas, you're always selling your ideas in one way, shape, or form. So being as it's basically you're marketing yourself, you're selling yourself but you're selling your ideas, and how to be able to do that with very short amount of time and have in very tight quarters, sometimes like an elevator to be able to express your ideas will give you definitely a leg up on the competition, if you will, moving forward and getting projects made getting screenplay sold, getting movie gigs, and so on. And I think it's definitely a skill that everybody in the world can use in one way shape or form. You're always selling your ideas you're always pitching. Even if it's to your wife on where you want to go to dinner that night or what movie you want to watch. It's a pitch it's a sales pitch of one way shape or form so I've really thanks Stephanie for being on the show. She was awesome. And definitely check her book out good in a room I'll leave all of her links and a link to her book in the show notes which you can get at indiefilmhustle.com/049 and please guys, don't forget to head over to filmmaking podcast calm and leave us an honest review of the show. It really helps us out a lot. Thanks again for all the support guys. We really appreciate it. Hope you got a lot out of this one. Keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you guys soon.

YOUTUBE VIDEO

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage – Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. AudibleGet a Free Filmmaking or Screenwriting Audiobook
  3. Rev.com – $1.25 Closed Captions for Indie Filmmakers – Rev ($10 Off Your First Order)