IFH 609: How Directing Star Wars Fan Films Changed My Career with Jason Satterlund

Jason Satterlund has been writing and directing films for about 100 years. He’s directed multiple award-winning feature films and, in 2021, he wrote and directed 28 episodes of television.

His Star Wars film, Kenobi, clocked one million views in 24 hours, and landed on Steven Soderbergh’s watch list. This resulted in a cover page article in the New York Time’s arts section.

His latest feature film, “The Abandon,” just sold to Lionsgate is will be seen in theaters across North America.

When he isn’t busting his hump on his own projects, he enjoys teaching filmmaking workshops and shaping the filmmakers of the future.

Enjoy my conversation with Jason Satterlund.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Jason Satterlund 0:00
Approach that problem optimistically your mind is 30% more active. 30% pessimism literally shuts your mind off. So that as you get angry and twisted and frustrated, it is killing your creativity.

Alex Ferrari 0:17
This episode is brought to you by the best selling book Rise of the Filmtrepreneur how to turn your independent film into a money making business. Learn more at filmbizbook.com

I'd like to welcome to the show Jason Satterlund. How you doing Jason?

Jason Satterlund 0:44
I am fantastic. Thank you.

Alex Ferrari 0:47
Thank you for coming on the show brother. I appreciate it man I've I've been a fan for from a distance for a little while man and I'm glad you reached out dude I saw could no be a while ago because I'm a Star Wars geek. If many of you before my show, I used to have a life sized Yoda that sits in the back behind me. But now Yoda sits over here right there he's right there and right off the camera and I'm never There's never too much there's always there's always a Yoda somewhere and life at one point or another so I am I am as they say a full blown full blown Star Wars geek. So when that came out anytime those kinds of really high quality fan films comes out I always interested in yours was one of the best I've ever seen but we're gonna get into we're gonna get into Kenobi in a bit but first questions dudes. Why God's green earth would you want to be in the film be a filmmaker Insane business sir.

Jason Satterlund 1:44
Same wonderful. Love it. You know what, I love this industry. I love it. I love making telling stories. I've always loved it ever since I was a kid. And I think you know, my story is probably similar to a lot of people where it's, I saw that one movie as a child, you know, and for me, it was close encounters. You know, when I saw those UFOs, you know, the police chasing UFOs down the freeway, I was so hooked. And from that moment forward, you know, when I was a kid, I wasn't allowed to watch movies. You know, I grew up in a very conservative Christian household where movies are bad and Hollywood is the lion's den. And it's don't go there, you lose your soul. My mom still says that. Anyway, I just the magic of Spielberg really captured me as a child and I would I would get to see the movie like once I couldn't go back and see it again. I would imagine it in my room I would just go in and like play the movie over and over my head and I just desperately wanted to be a part of that industry. You know, storytelling is just to see the the on an actor's face, you know, when the camera pushes in and and I just I couldn't I was a dog with a bone. I could not stop until I got there.

Alex Ferrari 2:57
Is there? Is there a filmmaker in modern history or in history of film at all? That has inspired more filmmakers and Steven Spielberg, right. I mean, I'm just I'm, I'm literally like, is there because you think back in a Kubrick IAM, of course, and Kurosawa, and then you can start, you know, you know, lien and all that stuff, but none of them were as popular. And as big as Spielberg made he is when you think directing, Spielberg is the name for our generation. Absolutely. Without question, is the name that pops up. And he's, I've no idea how many people have been on the show. It's amazing, that have been inspired, have inspired by Spielberg, and were mentioned a Spielberg movie that inspired them to become a filmmaker or had the chance to work with them. And, and tell me the stories of how, how they like these insane stories of Spielberg, you know, coming in and working with them. And I said this on the show so many times, he has touched so many filmmakers, personally, like, literally made a phone call and sent a letter who opened the door, gave an opportunity to hundreds of 1000s of filmmakers, let alone people from behind scenes as well over the course of his career. I don't think there's been a more influential filmmaker in the history of cinema. That's just my opinion.

Jason Satterlund 4:22
I think you're right. I mean, the amount of people that I know I mean, the amount of people I have met that are just inspired to do movies because of Jurassic Park. Like that was the one generation Well, I want to make

Alex Ferrari 4:35
Close Encounters Jaws et for me it was et I saw you t for the first time I was like,

Jason Satterlund 4:41
Raiders like who didn't watch raiders and when I want to make one of those like so yeah, that was 100% me as a kid and probably everyone listening is you know, has that film that pops into their brain more than likely a Spielberg film but I had a dad Get into it just now. And it was very difficult for me to get into it because I didn't know anybody but it just that. That magic that's created. I think Spielberg I think the reason why he inspires so much is because especially early Spielberg the golden age of Spielberg, you know, JAWS Ethan, he's a Raiders Last Crusade Jurassic Park. Like, there is a charm to his films that is very rare. You don't see it very often. Yeah, and it and you can create that they have the opportunity to actually build something that feels like that.

Alex Ferrari 5:37
Oh, my gosh, it's just No, it's It's, it's insane. I hope to have him on the show. One day, he is on my bucket list. He is on my bucket list. I'm putting it out into the universe. Everyone listening? Take a second right now. Put it down to get Spielberg on on the show on Alex's show, and I will ask him the questions you guys want me to ask him?

Jason Satterlund 5:59
I don't know him. But I'll make some calls.

Alex Ferrari 6:01
If anyone out there listening, you never know. Who knows? Maybe Steve is listening. I don't know. Wouldn't that be insane? Now, so look, as a director, I mean, I feel like you and I are of similar vintage. We've been we were we've we've we've walked across the same, you know, battlefields. And same, over the same. We have the shrapnel to prove it. What happens as a director when no one gives you have the opportunity to direct because unlike a writer, you can write, but a director, you need an opportunity, you need to do so many things to practice your art.

Jason Satterlund 6:39
So, yeah, that's a really well, it's a great question. And I don't know how much time we have. But I could talk about this a lot. Because it is the one job that's the hardest to get. It's far harder to get a directing job than an acting job, because there's just fewer of them. You know, when you look at you look on any filmmaking website, whether it's Mandy, or you know, where you look for jobs, rarely do you see need director needed, it's always crew. Right. And that's just sort of the nature of the beast, because the director is generally the one creating the project. And it's, you're, you're in a position where all other departments, right, so from producers, DPS, Aedes makeup, all of them get hired by directors or producers. That means and so you're working with your friends, but directors get hired by usually clients, or studios. So it's a different whole universe that you have to be connected to. So stream ly difficult to land directing jobs. And it's very, very difficult for me. And it was a real source of depression, anxiety, frustration for many, many years i i lived in. I grew up in Portland, Oregon, I lived in Nashville, I moved to Nashville when I was in my 20s to pursue filmmaking. I don't know why I didn't go to LA, probably because I don't know why. Because my mom told me it was dangerous there. So I was probably I think that's why I was too afraid. I went to Nashville and could not get. I mean, I wanted to be a director, but who was I? I didn't, I didn't know anything. I didn't know anyone. And I ended up in like doing music videos. Because Nashville's Music City, right? So I worked in music videos as a PA and all sorts of different jobs. And I ended up in corporate work. And, you know, when you're in corporate work, you're shooting like an instructional video or a live event. And I would do hours of this stuff. And still, it's not directing, right? It's not, I might maybe get a chance to do a little short. But the biggest opportunity I got is I wrote a script called searching for winter. And I met a business guy, because you know, that's what you need. You need the business guy to help you get some money to get your film made, right? So I do the I make the script, this business guy liked the script, and he said, I'll help you, like, raise the money. So he gave me a little bit of money. And we shot a little trailer for it. And so excited in the trailer. I mean, it came out pretty well, you know, considering it's however long ago it was. And nobody wanted to touch it. Everybody looked at it and like Yeah, that's cool. Like, but you've never made a movie before. So how am I supposed to know that you can actually make a movie. And that was really devastating because I could show them all the car commercials I've done and music videos like look at this. Isn't this cool? Yeah, but it's not a movie. So that was really disheartening for me. And I kicked around for a long, long time. And finally I realized one day well, okay, if no one's gonna give me the opportunity, I have to make it. So I sat down and wrote up. I wrote a script around the assets that I had access to things that I knew I could do, like I knew how to shoot underwater. And I knew, you know, I noticed dunk guy. And you know, I knew I had some friends in the industry. So I wrote a script kind of using some of those assets. I set out to raise $40,000 I raised 12. That's how much I suck at raising money. So I

Alex Ferrari 10:15
I'm gonna stop you there, right there. So you raise $12,000 For a movie. That's a frickin win my friend. Just because you went for 40 You only got 12 you get over 25% of your budget as a filmmaker. Come on, dude.

Jason Satterlund 10:33
Yeah, it was. It's funny, because this film. It's probably the most proudest accomplishments I've ever done in my life. Because I had no help. Really, the actors didn't really want to be in it. The DP was a really close friend of mine. I kid you not his first comment when I said, I'm just going to make a movie. I just want to make one his first comment to me. He was like my best friend. He's like, I just don't want to make any more crappy movies. Like, Oh, thanks. Wow, thanks. I appreciate that. So I repeated myself. So I had three film interns to two full sail graduates and one guy who just yet full sail. And one guy who just wanted to be in the movie business. They were basically my crew. I had this stunt guy friend of mine and his wife. And that was it. And I shot for six straight weeks over Christmas and shot this thing. We had two underwater sequences, we did mob scenes, we car chases, and all kinds of crazy stuff. And I actually put myself in the hospital from exhaustion. I, I ended up passing out at one point and from I think a panic attacks, probably what it was, oh, yeah, yeah, I've had those. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it. But I did it. I got it across the line. And it was, it really changed a lot for me, essentially, I mean, going back to your initial question, how do you get hired, I just had to invent defend myself, I just had to go out and make it happen. And I did. Now the film never went anywhere, but I at least was able to plant that flag. And I do think that doing the first one helped kind of unlock the dam for future things. Because now I'm a feature film director, I can say that, and no one can take that from me. You might watch the film and say it sucks. Because you can't take the fact that I made a movie. And that's it was a real source of pride.

Alex Ferrari 12:29
I'll tell you what, man, it's exactly what happened to me. I took it took me years before I had the the, I guess the the courage to actually go make a film, I had the skill set probably 20 years prior 15 years prior. But it took me a while before I jumped on that board in this second I did it. I it just opened up the dough, like okay, um, I proved it to myself, I proved that to myself that I could tell a story that looked decent, a shot at myself shot and then eight days, you know, it was a small little film. But we sold it to Hulu. Nice. You sold it internationally and had a really great cast. And it was done in LA and we you know, pulled a bunch of friends together, we made it happen. But you had to kind of go out there and just do it. And I think it's also the idea. And I've said this on the show many times about the the this lottery ticket mentality that we have as filmmakers going like, if it's going to be our first feature has to be Reservoir Dogs, or it has to be JAWS or it has to be, you know, you know, whatever Memento or whatever that film is, that's going to blow us up as a director. And that's generally not, that doesn't happen for most directors.

Jason Satterlund 13:35
Well, there's a reason for that. I think that every filmmaking book that you read, I mean, we've all read Rebel Without a crew and and Kevin Smith's book. I forget the title offhand. But like all those, you know, when they talk about the story of their life, we are kind of sold the dream that we will be cherry picked from obscurity and placed on high into the upper echelon of work and most books are written kind of from that framework. Most How To books about moviemaking are built like that, like you're gonna make, I saw an interview with the Duplass brothers. And I basically laid out just like, you make your first movie, it's gonna get into Sundance or some big festival. From there, you're gonna get a bigger actor interested in your film. From there, you're gonna get the bigger film. Yeah, but what if your first film doesn't get into Sundance? What if it doesn't? What if the only festival it gets into is the Cedar Rapids Film Festival in Iowa? And then that's it, like, how do you then function so this we're all hanging on to the dream that we are that special person that will get cherry picked? And it's not impossible. It still happens like it does happen, which is part of the allure. But that but 90% of us that doesn't happen to it's 99.9% of us.

Alex Ferrari 14:55
It doesn't happen. It's the lights I call it a lottery ticket mentality. Do people win the lottery every day? In Absolutely, the bulk of the people who play the lottery don't win. And that is the mentality that were stuck with. I agree with you 110%. And by the way that do plus example, they shot a movie for $3, which was DV tape called forgot something. What about an answering machine? Dude, that guy was destined. Those guys were destined that just like you look at those stories, and I've studied all of them. And I've had some of those filmmakers on the show. And ask them the questions I got it just kind of worked out. Like they had no indication that a movie about a guy leaving a message on an answering machine for an ex girlfriend shot horribly, to their to their own, they've set it to shut horribly, got into Sundance, and then that kind of led into right, all these other dominoes falling. But you can't live your life like that. You just got to do it.

Jason Satterlund 15:52
We're all we're all we've all been told this. We're all believe this. And I want to make sure that it doesn't come off that I'm trashing the people that this happens to because oh for that, because that's great, like Kevin Smith, if his film had not been seen by Weinstein, like, we wouldn't know who he is today, like, a good for him. I mean, he does these people that make it and and succeed and continue succeeding, they do the work, they've honed their skills, these are talented people. But you know, the majority of the people working that didn't happen to that that Cinderella story. I think it's important to just understand that because I think especially those who don't live in Hollywood, don't live in LA. They're living in Toledo or something, and they're hanging on to that dream that that will happen to them from there. It does happen. I mean, the guy from the guy that directed Shazam, I forget the director's name.

Alex Ferrari 16:47
But David Sandberg I had him on the show. Yeah, his short films

Jason Satterlund 16:52
Exactly the same. He was in Sweden, boom, picked from on high

Alex Ferrari 16:56
Literally told me the whole story. It was fascinating to hear this story. And he's like, yeah, and then I was flown over. And I, we were in LA, and me and my girlfriend didn't know, we didn't know what to do. And, and they were putting us they put us up in a house, it's the lottery. It's literally a lottery ticket, you could be

Jason Satterlund 17:14
And that's what we are hoping for. That's what we all dream that will happen to us. But I do think there is a it's really important to get grounded and understand that it might be a little bit longer of a slog, just a bit. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think myself, I'm kind of glad that my first film didn't blow up like that. Because, you know, I didn't know a whole lot back then. Man, I would have been like 25, if that film had blown up, and the amount of times I would have shot myself in the foot just because I'm so young and immature, and didn't know how to deal with people. Because film directing is very much about managing a large group of people and worrying for the biggest client you can imagine. So there is a maturity. That's, I think, very important with that.

Alex Ferrari 18:10
Yeah, I mean, there's no question about it, man, no question about it. Now, you you've, you've gone down, I was looking at your filmography, and you've done a tremendous amount of shorts, you've really kind of dug into shorts a bit. What is the value of making short films? I mean, obviously, other than the lottery ticket idea, which I did that multiple times in my career, but you've really went all in, and we'll talk about the fan films in a minute that you did that short, specifically, what was your value in that you think?

Jason Satterlund 18:40
Well, it's it's interesting, because there's, it's kind of a two prong thing that happened to me personally. For one thing, shorts are not going to make you money. For the most part, I mean, yes, sometimes they'll get bought and put as a package to something but generally that you're not going to get make money from that. You might get noticed from that. That's sort of what we hope. But really shorts as what it boils down to is practice. It's just let me put shoot something and put it out there and see how an audience reacts to it. It's and it's, I think it's vital for everyone to do. I had a really interesting journey, though, because I was doing shorts just like we all do. And it took a lot of work and a lot of effort. But I reached a point in my career, where I had done one movie I was doing, like I said, a lot of corporate work, live corporate work, and I was I found myself being exceedingly depressed and anxious and I was F realized I was very angry a lot. Where I would be I was literally the guy in the platform in the middle of the audience, shooting a speaker walking left and walking right across the stage. And oftentimes, you know, it's a TN T 's annual convention and he's giving the report of Have the annual sales blood riveting riveting stuff revenue. Yeah, eight o'clock in the morning, you're in a suit and tie and you're doing and I'm up there so angry. I'm like, almost in tears like just, this is not where I thought I'd be at 29 or 30, or whatever. I don't even remember what age

Alex Ferrari 20:18
But like you just use but you but you did use the Spielberg analogy, right? Like Spielberg made Jaws at 27.

Jason Satterlund 20:22
That's right. And that we have all these stories that we're continually comparing ourselves to, like, if I'm not doing what Spielberg did at x age than I am a failure as a person I like and wait, that, and I was exactly trapped in that spiral. And it is a terrible spiral to get caught in. And most people I know, struggle with this. And I found myself very bitter, very angry. And just just this twisted up person, and I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be because no one wants to be around that person. That is not a source of creativity. There's a there's a book I would highly recommend people read called The Happiness Advantage. It's the study of joy. Yeah, so this is study of joy. And in that book, they talk about where if you encounter a problem, let's just say that, let's say you got an edit. And the edit is an actor that wasn't very good. And you have to try to make this work with a bad performance. And if you approach that job with man, I can't believe I have to work with this crappy actor and I can't believe that this is my job and poo poo poo wag this bad pessimistic view versus All right. What do you got for me today after I'm gonna make you look like a frickin rock star? You know, really an optimistic approach to it the problem still the same, but you're approaching it from an optimistic versus a pessimistic mindset. They have done studies where they will attach electrodes to the brain and if you approach that problem, optimistically, your mind is 30% more active 30% pessimism literally shuts your mind off. So that as you get angry and twisted and frustrated, it is killing your creativity. It is these are this is scientifically proven. And I'm finding myself in that same position. And one day I was watching the movie Jurassic Park. And you remember in Jurassic, this is so funny to me, because Jurassic Park, how old is this movie? 30 years?

Alex Ferrari 22:30
93 93 Yeah.

Jason Satterlund 22:32
Okay, so do you remember the scene in Jurassic Park where all the characters are sitting in the little ride? Right in the little, they're getting introduced to the park and they're all inside that theater, and had a little cartoon comes up. This is dyno DNA. Yeah, this movie is 30 years old. And everyone remembers the same, which I'm gonna come back to in a second. And the little cartoon says, This is how you make dinosaurs. Sometimes the mosquito gets stuck in the staff that the staff turns to Amber, we extracted that data and suddenly you have done Oh, DNA, right? That whole scene. That scene is a corporate instructional video, which is exactly the kind of videos I was creating. Do you think when Spielberg went to make that part in his movie, that he pissed and moaned and wind that he has to make a corporate video? Or did he go oh, man, how can I make this thing really cool? How can I make this thing like memorable and fun, and it's the scene in a 30 year old movie that everyone remembers. It is the it is absolutely vital to understand how that movie works. It's the informational piece. Anytime you have a sci fi piece, a time travel movie, there's always a scene where you have to describe the way the mechanics work. That's a corporate video. So here I was. And I suddenly had to select the Epiphany, like, wow, what if I approached my work that I'm getting hired to do in the same exact way? What if I just pretended that this video about how to make car seats? And I just thought about it, like, maybe this is part of a bigger movie, that this is just one little piece of it? It didn't really change much in the way that I shot it necessarily. But well, actually, no, I take that back. It did. I started thinking about how can I make this look more cinematic? How can I move the camera in a way that I would do for my movie? How can I craft the script, so it really pulls the audience in and makes them engaged? I'm telling you, man, everything changed for me in that moment. Everything changed. So I was doing shorts. I had made a movie and then all of a sudden the clients started looking at the little videos I was making and went you know, this feels different than the other videos I'm seeing. Can we hire you to do a short and I have made quite a career out of making shorts for corporations. I just finished one about a month ago. We shot a 20 minute long, epic Roman soldier story about a plague that hit Rome in about 200 ad. And it was essentially the story was about the first hospital that was born, and how it was made. And it was freaking amazing. Like we had a big budget, great actors, we had a full, you know, full on set, we shot in Texas. And we had this really cool middle eastern style we can set and it was so much fun, so much fun. And

Alex Ferrari 25:35
Yeah, so if I can, if I can unpack a little bit of what you're saying here, because I think it's something really valuable for everyone listening, your perspective and your attitude change. definitely change the course of your career. Because if it was, and how many of us know the angry and bitter filmmaker, how many of us know that. And I always tell people anytime I do, anytime I talk in front of people I go, how many people here know an angry and bitter filmmaker and a bunch of people hands right up, if you didn't raise your hand up. You are the angry and bitter filmmaker that everybody else knows. So if you change your perspective on how you approach things, that comes through in the work, and that's exactly what happened to you. And we can't get stuck in this idea that we're all going to be a Spielberg or Fincher or Nolan or Tarantino or Kubrick you, you can't get that stuck. If you stuck. That way, you'll never be able to move. If you wake up every morning going, I need to be as good as Steven Spielberg. You're never going to pick up a camera. Because you're talking about a master, you've got to be the best version of yourself. And I think that's what you did. And then you carved out this beautiful little niche for yourself.

Jason Satterlund 26:49
Yeah, it's been it's been amazing. And you know, when I'm on set doing that stuff? Is it a big Academy Award winning film? No. Am I having the time of my life? Yes, that's, and that's not saying that none of that other stuff ever will happen. I believe that it still will. It's not that you have to let go of your dream. Because here's the big thing that will happen. And I think this is so important. My my flag that I will waive here is that our number one goal, as artists, the number one thing that you have to fight to protect is your mental state, your the way you think about your approach to art, because it your your anxiety that comes up, because we live in a business that is undulating, it's constantly moving, it's you get really busy for a season, and then it crashes to a halt. Sometimes it's the nature of what we do. And I don't care if you've been working for two years straight or two months straight, the minute that work stops, the anxiety begins. And it's usually the same kind of questions. Crap, I hope I work again, you know, I hope I booked another job and that desperate. Think about it like dating, like if you are sitting there going, Gosh, I really wish I was married. I really, really want a wife. I just wish someone would love me go on a date and see how far that gets you that desperate, anxious energy, your partner I mean, imagine being on a date with that person, you're like,

Alex Ferrari 28:12
Oh, Rome, the aromas in the air. It's like yes, like bad your car.

Jason Satterlund 28:18
That's the energy that you're projecting if you don't really carefully watch the mental state that you're in. And another thing a second piece of this is, once I started, you know, the car seat analogy that I used before making a car, this is how you install a car seat into a Mercedes. Well, if you approach that, like, Alright, I'm going to be imagine this as part of my movie. Suddenly, a really interesting thing happens and it happened to me, I start having fun, I start it brings this level of joy to the work. And I think that's a vital because if we don't allow that to happen, and I don't care if you're shooting a wedding video, or a corporate interview with a CEO, if you don't find a way to bring that joy to your work, all you're doing is postponing your joy to somewhere down the line. You're going to sit there and go, I am not going to allow myself to be happy until I get whatever it is that you defined that Universal Studios movie or the Marvel film. I'm going to sit here and be miserable until I get there. All you're doing is setting yourself up for complete disappointment and frustration and you're going to be you're going to become that twisted person that you don't want to be. I think it's so important to think about this.

Alex Ferrari 29:35
Do you know the story of how James James Cameron got his first shot as a director? I do not. So he was working for Roger Corman as a props guy. And he was doing a really bad Roger Corman film back then. And he was like just shooting I think second unit. They gave him like a shot. A shot of maggots. like coming out of some sort of meat. That was it was an insert shot, which is the equivalent of a car seat. It's the equivalent of the car seat analogy that you gave. But Jim was so excited about doing that shot had such great energy that he was trying to make this be the best maggots coming out of meat shot in movie history. This is the way he was looking at it. So what did he do? He was doing something that Roger Corman was walking behind, and he just saw this kid. And then he would turn the camera on and he would give he would he was doing something that made the magnets dance. Ah. Oh, yeah. Electric. Yeah. Great. So so he turns the camera off, and then they stop. And Roger Corman is like if this kid could direct magnets, I'm gonna give him a movie. And he what he was doing was he's sending electrical shots through the sheath through the the meat. So they would just does it and then we just go down. So that was what he was doing. And then he got Parana to the spawning the greatest flying Parana film ever made.

But that was, but look at the look at that example. And look at the career that James can imagine if he would have just said, Man, I gotta shoot. Yeah, I guess I don't want to do that. I want to be making a movie I don't want to be. But I don't want to be doing that. Yeah, who wants to be doing that shot? But he did me super excited about it.

Jason Satterlund 31:30
It's, well think about if you were in charge, looking for a director. And if there was someone who was saying your words, would you hire you? Would you want that energy on your set? I you know, if I'm, if I'm watching the guy doing that same shot, and I see him smiling, and he's just having fun with it. You know, hey, that's the kind of energy that that's that's an optimistic kind of approach. I think there's also this weird it's sort of this unspoken law in film, where there's legitimate and illegitimate kind of work. And I think a lot of us look at every single book written is written towards the upper echelon of Hollywood where we that's where we want to work, we want to work way up here and everything between point A and point B is somehow illegitimate. It's look down your nose at the whatever you call it, you know, the wedding video or instructional videos somehow that's just not. Right,

Alex Ferrari 32:28
Right. And I'll tell you what I had. I had a director on the show years ago. And he has directed over 100 features around features he's made. And he's done a lot of Hallmark and Lifetime movies. He does three to four movies a year. He's been doing it for 30 years, like he's just pounding it, pounding it 345 movies a year. And I was talking, we had a serious conversation. I go, You know what, if anyone has a problem with the kind of filmmaking you're doing, tell them to go screw off, dude. Because you're living the life you're being paid to direct. You have a good life. You live in Los Angeles, you get to fly out to exotic locations and gets directly make the movies you're making. Who gives a crap or what anyone else says? Because a lot of people were like, Oh, he just makes Lifetime movies. Screw off. He's living his dream. If he's happy, what the hell? So like, I would guarantee like most people listening would kill for a career like that, you know? Because we all want to do Jurassic Park man, who does it? You know, I mean, Fincher wants to be Kubrick. Nolan wants to be Kubrick. Spielberg wanted to be Kurosawa. Lucas wanted to be Kurosawa. Coppola wanted to be cooler, or Sawa. Like everybody wants to be something they're not until they figure out oh, I'm going to be the best version of me. And that's greatness happens.

Jason Satterlund 33:44
Yeah, it doesn't mean you let go of any that dream. All it means is, I'm just going to enjoy this what I've got right now. And, you know, are you in your little corporate? Let's say you're doing a corporate training film? Are you not working with a camera? Well, yes, I am. Are you not working with an actor? Actually, we cast for this and there's a subject in front of me doing the thing? Are you not working with a makeup artist or a DP? Like, you're all the elements? It's the same mechanics are there what you're getting to do is someone's paying you to practice your craft you're getting, and now you're not gonna like, if it doesn't work, who cares? It's just an instructional video about how to install a car seat. Big deal if

Alex Ferrari 34:23
You're but if you're directing Tom Cruise, and it doesn't work, you're done. Right! Exactly.

Jason Satterlund 34:28
You get to work out all these kinks along the way, before you actually get there and that there's a real joy in that a real freedom in that and it's,

Alex Ferrari 34:37
I agree with you 100%. Brother. Now there's, there's a, you know, one of the big things that you've did was you've done a couple of two or three fan films that have been very well received. The first question when you reached out to me was like, I have to ask him this. I have to ask because I've been dying to find out because there's fan films that get made all the time. You know, and fan you know, there's like Star Wars fan films and Ghostbuster fan films and so many different types of anthems. And sometimes, you know, the copyright holders are not as friendly, let's say as Lucas Films is now from what I understand Lucas Films has been, has a very open, loving relationship with the fans and fan films and encourages them. But with that said that was before the mouse bottom. And secondly, how do you dance the line between copyright and fandom? Yeah, just something that so many filmmakers out there would maybe want to make a Star Wars project because I've been involved with with with shorts and the post world that the copyright holder said stop it. or We're suing. Yeah. So how did you dance that line? And did you and by the way, did the mouse did the mouse call?

Jason Satterlund 35:46
No, they did not. So there are certain IPs that exist, you're exactly right. There's certain IPs that exists where they are very cool. With people making fan films, the biggest rule is you just can't make money on it. If you start trying to charge for views or something. That's where you'll get in trouble. Star Wars is one of those. In fact, they even have a contest. For the best fan film, I don't know if they still do it. But back when, when for The Force Awakens came out there was a big fan film contest that I think JJ Abrams even was like, hey, send us Your great fan film. They even had music on their website that you could download and use in your film and stuff like that. So they're very encouraging to filmmakers. And that all came from George Lucas. Video games are the same. They're usually very open welcoming to IP. But there are other IPs that are not you should do your research if you're going to do and I think one of those is Doctor Who I don't think that they take too kindly to other people making fan films about Doctor Who I think Harry Potter, they're open to it, you just kind of have to, it's a weird thing.

Alex Ferrari 36:55
BC kind of comes and goes depending on what they want to do. And a very famous idea, the very famous case was Star Trek when they that would have been very, very cool for most of, of its life of the IP it had been very cool for with with fan films, but then the but then they they went too far. They raised like $1.5 million for a fan film. And it was going to be this feature length fan film and it was like one and then that's when Paramount's like okay? Yeah. And they're now there's rules. So they actually had to lay out like a rule set for film people like you can't make it this much money. They're not because it got too big. It got too big the fandom got too big. Because now you have no control over the IP. It's one thing to do a 20 30,000 Maybe even 50 $100,000 you no fan film, but when you're making a $1.5 million fan film, the danger of things going awry becomes exponentially more.

Jason Satterlund 37:50
Yeah, you just you just have to be careful. And before you shoot anything, you should probably make sure before you go through all this effort that you don't end up with a million dollar home movie. Like you want to make sure people actually there's good, go ahead. Go ahead.

Alex Ferrari 38:06
No, there was a there was a filmmaker I had on the show who made a infamous Punisher Oh, really an infamous Punisher fan film. That was like, handed around the comic cons and people were like, but it was so violent. It was I think it was Punisher Wolverine, I think or something. It was like really a badass Punisher, Punisher led fan film, but then Marvel called them. And I think that and then said, That's No. And he had to pull it off. And I asked him like, is it exist? It's like, no, no, I've burned all the copies. Yeah. If you're not if you're not watching the interview, my eyes did a little shifty thing. But I'm like, you know, can I see it? And he's like, I doesn't exist, Alex. So you got to be careful with fantasize always fascinated with fan films. Now you did a fan film. Your first Star Wars fan film without mistake is the force in the fury, which I'm going to put links to all these on in the show notes of the show. And I tell everybody, if you're interested, watch it. It is fascinating to see a well produced fan film of Star Wars. Because there's so many bad ones. There's just so many. Yeah, there's really a lot of bad ones. But this was so beautiful, because you did something that was really interesting. And that's short that you use the environment, which was low cost was like a forest. But it looks so beautiful. And the production value looks so big. It was basically just two people fighting the historic battle inside of of the forest, but the quality of the imagery and the color grading and everything was so solid. So it was so beautiful. How was that film received? Because I was the first big Star Wars fan for me.

Jason Satterlund 39:53
Yeah, well, I did. So I've done three fan films. The first one I ever do is for Splinter Cell Games. So it's called playstyle extraction. So this was my second attempt at doing a fan film. And yeah, it, it did quite well, people really liked it.

Alex Ferrari 40:09
And it didn't do anything for you like on a career standpoint,

Jason Satterlund 40:13
I will say that what it did was grease the wheels. So it didn't necessarily get me in a room, but it got the door open at least. And here's the reason why you do a fan film. I mean, yes, it's fun to play with lightsabers. Of course. That goes without saying, sir. Yes, it's really fun to play in these universes. But the real reason is, you know, if you think about it, you make a short hay, and you get it done. And you're telling your people about it, like, oh, I made the short film. So it's about a guy who doesn't know who he is. But he realizes he's got wings. And he starts to think maybe he's an angel or whatever, you know, I'm just spitballing. But like, and the people listening are like, uh, huh, yeah, cool. Cool. What's the name of it? Oh, it's called a job well done, or whatever. And, and then the next question is always, how long is it? So basically, my point is, you have to talk people into watching, you're short. You're trying to sell it all the time, right? Yeah, your mom's gonna see it. And of course, she's gonna love it. And your all your friends will watch it, you know, I'd be a little premiere. But then beyond that, you're going to have to try to talk everyone else into watching it. Unless it's just so phenomenal. It catches fire and spreads the world. Great, good for you. Or you go. So I made a Star Wars film. Generally the reaction is really, what's it called? On until we're gonna check this out. My cousin loves Star Wars. My mom, let's start we're gonna do the check. That's the difference. The most views I ever got on any short that I ever did was like 20,000 views, 30,000 views. I haven't looked lately to see what force and fury is up to. But it's in the hundreds of 1000s

Alex Ferrari 41:51
I believe 453,000

Jason Satterlund 41:55
And I, I've barely promoted it, like, boom, it's just like everywhere. Kenobi when we did Kenobi that hit a million views in 24 hours. And that's why you do those like because your work and the whole name of the game is to get your work seen, right? You want people to say, oh, this person knows what they're doing. You do a fan film it just more eyeballs watching what you're doing.

Alex Ferrari 42:18
I mean, one of the most famous fan film stories of all time is the Mortal Kombat one, which was done by John. He did the movie Fame, which, okay, I had a miserable death at the box office. And he was pretty much going to be thrown into director jail. I forgot his name is John something I forgot his last name. But he was already he's like, I'm done. I'm done. It's over. I no one's gonna hire me. So he's like, You know what, I'm gonna make a mortal kombat fan film. And he made a such a good Mortal Kombat fan film, that the rights holders hired him to do a web series of it. And then that turned into the feature version of it. And now they're making the sequel of the feature. all started with a fan film. Now he wasn't established director. So he wasn't an unknown quantity. But he took a shot because he had no other choice. He's like, I'm done. He made fame. And I mean, it died. It was like, it's almost as bad as almost as bad as gem in the holograms. When I showed up, it just died. It was dead on arrival. So he that's how he made it and that and then he just dumped it. He just dumped it into the, into the internet. And people lost their mind because it was really cool. It was like basically a violent, cool version of Mortal Kombat with backstory and story arcs. And he went all in. So that's a really famous version of it's I think, that's another thing that filmmakers have a dream of, is when they make they make a Star Wars fan film. And they all want Catherine Kennedy to call them up or John. John favorite to call them up and go, Look, man, I saw your fan film, I'd love you to do an episode of demand DeLorean? We all that's the now the new dream of doing a fan film. Yeah, that hasn't happened to my understanding yet.

Jason Satterlund 44:05
Well, I know that people have seen it. I know it made the rounds at Disney. I know that we actually ended up on Steven Soderbergh put out a list of films that he watched. Whatever year we put that out, I don't remember off top my head, but it was on his list. It actually got me on the cover of The New York Times, which is pretty great. So like, it did get a lot of mileage. Yeah. And you know, that's not to say that the life is over. Like it may come up, but it's all but it has helped get me in the room.

Alex Ferrari 44:36
Because there was a guy who made this car this beautiful short, this is back in the day. 2008 2005 2006 He made Batman versus the predator versus alien. Oh, yeah, that one. I forgot. I forgot his name. He he is so talented, but yet never could get farther than where he went with those things was interesting to me. I always always found that interesting because it was like he's obviously super talented. And he did. He did a few of those. But there was also the timing, I guess it was the timing of it all and things like that. But it didn't go any farther than that. So I'm glad to hear that these films have done good for you. And Oh, for sure. But look, Kenobi Kenobi has done 18 million views. I mean, 87 77 million, sorry. 87 million views. 80. Millions was the trailer for the Kenobi show. I just thought they were next to each other. But you had over 7 million views? For a short that, you know,

Jason Satterlund 45:42
Yeah. And it's been great. Because I know there have been situations where I want to meet somebody, you know, that I would like to connect to. This is Jason, he's done this, that and the other. He deleted and use a lot of times they've seen it. Like, holy crap, you did that? Oh, what what was your name? Jason. So it's, it hasn't necessarily like, I haven't gotten a call from on high. But it has like, opened the door helped grease those wheels. So I would say it was absolutely worth doing. And even if nothing ever happened from it, the people I met on it and the connections I was made through that was really good. Jamie Costa being one of them, who is you know, he's become a close friend. And he's, you know, very successful actor and things like that. So, you know, that's another reason why you do these things, is to like, you know, you're just trying to make as many friends as you can.

Alex Ferrari 46:36
Yeah, and I think that's one of the things one of the reasons I want to jump in and show is to kind of demystify the fan film. And also demystify what you should expect out of a fan film, if you're gonna go down that road. And I love your approach to it, because it's a very practical approach. Hey, man, I get to go play with lightsabers and skirmish repairs, and have a good time and playing. And you came out with Kenobi before they came out with this. So that was, that was pretty awesome. You know,

Jason Satterlund 47:04
We were on set filming when they announced when they announced that they were going to do it.

Alex Ferrari 47:09
That's so cool. Oh,

Jason Satterlund 47:11
We gotta hurry up finish filming.

Alex Ferrari 47:15
Yeah, cuz then I wouldn't be like it would be the same. You better hurry up and get it out there fast.

Jason Satterlund 47:20
Obviously Yeah, if you're gonna do it. First of all, like I said, it's exactly that comparison of like, if you're gonna make a short a fan film was a really good option. A lot of people will watch it if they're fans it same thing with Splinter Cell like people just really like Splinter Cell, they're gonna watch it. I just met somebody recently who said, Dude, I used to work at Ubisoft when Splinter Cell came out, we all loved that film, we were hoping you'd put another one out, you know, it will get eyeballs, they will help you a lot. But but if you're going to, let's say you're gonna make a Star Wars film, make sure that you do it with love and do it with quality, like make sure that you're filling a gap that the audience needs. Don't have Jedi as be for example, I don't want to make a Jedi be an assassin. Because that's just an understanding. You don't understand what the Jedi are. They are not attackers. They are defenders. They are you know, they're monastic. You know, people, they're more about peace. So understand the lore. Because you'll get crucified the audience. Oh my god, could you imagine what people see that stuff is sacred, you know, their precious Star Wars. So like, come at it with that and make sure you know, if you don't understand the lore, get someone who does to help you with the script so that you can really embed it. And it can be a beautiful thing. Beautiful thing if you do it

Alex Ferrari 48:43
Right. Now, I'm going to give you I'm going to ask you a question a little geek fandom. trivia question. What was the first Star Wars fan film?

Jason Satterlund 48:54
Was it troops? Yeah, it was a truth.

Alex Ferrari 49:02
If you can find an SD version of it somewhere on the internet troops was the first time anyone to my understanding or knowledge, took the Star Wars universe and made a fan film from it. And it was basically it was following Storm Troopers on the kind of like cops follows cops. Yeah. As it was. And it was like all about and it was it was a domestic disturbance at Yeah, uncle, Uncle Ben's. And there was late and then there was so funny and hilarious. And that thing. That was what early godmen that must have been a long one. 2002

Jason Satterlund 49:42
I think before that, I think it was like the late 90s

Alex Ferrari 49:45
No, no, it was late 90s. It was the internet. So the internet hadn't really kicked into the good points. So it was probably late 90s And I remember seeing like a thumb like a postage stamp version of it on. Wasn't even quick time I think was flash. Oh Um, you know, playing on the internet and everyone was just like, oh my god, I was like, oh so funny. But that is for everyone. If you curious to see an amazing fanfic those lightsabers no lights it because it couldn't do the visual effects back then. So they just had a bunch of Stormtroopers out there. And it was brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. So when you were making Kenobi man, because it was so well put together, and beautifully shot and I mean, there was there's some complexity to the action sequences and things like that. I gotta ask, there's always that day on set, and I asked a lot of us, there's always that day on set generally is almost every day. But there's one specific day that everything's gone wrong. Worlds coming down crashing around you, and you're making a fan film with no expectations to ever make $1 from it. So now, it's just like, This is pure love, and things aren't going right. What was the worst day of that? Well, and how did you get through it

Jason Satterlund 50:58
Every day was pretty much a disaster on Kenobi. And I know this isn't against any people, like, people were great. We're in the desert. So in a positive side, like Jamie and I worked tirelessly on the script, to like really make sure that we understood who Konami was and we understood this whole planet and where he was in his spiritual journey as a most all that stuff. So when we got to sit there was very little conversation needed because we'd already gone through he was dialed into that character data that it up, but so we shot in two separate locations. One was in Odessa caves, I think it's called Odessa caves. And that went okay, except it was a night shoot and then complicated. And then we went to a place called trona pinnacles which is kind of Near Death Valley. And so we're shooting out there in the middle of the desert with stormtroopers and those helmets, they can't see anything below. Like if you were to take your fingers and put them below your eyes. You can't see your feet. That's what it's like to wear those helmets. They also can't sit down because of the way the armors sits on the body. So they just to like walk around. It's really cumbersome for those guys. Day one, we had wind gusts up to 3040 miles an hour. You we had our props truck got into a car accident on the way to set so we had no landspeeder we didn't have the moisture evaporator. We didn't have anything. We had no set. We had the actors, we had to costume so I was trying to direct the I was basically I had to start backwards to start with insert shots of like, I have no set to shoot on and I've got the winds were blowing so high that I could barely record dialogue. So I had to shoot all these extra pieces. It was the biggest jigsaw puzzle it was so hard. So like the there's a shot where all the stormtroopers come up over this hill and and James Arnold Taylor, sidenote, who is the voice of Obi Wan Kenobi and all the cartoons, comes up on over the hill and he says, oh, and baru greetings on behalf on behalf of the Empire. That scene. It was I have a behind the scenes on my phone. It was. I mean, the wind was just blowing, blowing and blowing. And the stormtroopers kept tripping over rocks and boulders and stuff because they could not see and they're trying to stay in formation. Oh my gosh, you must have shot that 15 times. Try to get that right. The second day. The wind died down and we had a set but then we had a child there. And Audi who played our little Luke preciouses, cutest little kid was just young enough to where he didn't quite understand. They were on it. We were making a movie. So to him, it's sort of like, playtime, pretend and you're having you surround him with these scary Stormtrooper outfits in the hot sweaty desert. He would cry and like we would do a couple takes you'd like it. And it was really challenging. And what kept happening was is we ended up causing, like, I just shoot a whole bunch with him and kept pushing our dialogue.

Alex Ferrari 54:18
You're stressing out as you're

Jason Satterlund 54:22
Oh, man, it was so hard. It kept pushing our dialogue scenes back because all these things that end up happening. So our dialogue, you're getting push, push, push, push, push until the fight sequence came up, and we had no time. So we literally so in the end of that film, he basically fights all the stormtroopers blinded. That's two takes. When we went to shoot that scene, the Sun we were in this bowl, the sun had already disappeared behind the bowl. So there was no sun. We had to run out. And we had to run out to this big open area we and the sun is sitting on the hill. right isn't sitting right there. And I'm like, we're gonna do a wide shot and a close up shot. And then we had the Steadicam operator just run around in a big circle. And there's a behind the scenes shot of, of the sound guy and everyone running as fast as they can like the arms of a clock around this whole lightsaber thing. People are dying to get out of the shot. And that was our entire battle. We shot in two separate takes, and it was like, and then boom, the sun goes below the horizon where you're just, we all just collapsed in a big heap. And we barely had enough to put the fights team barely had enough to put it together, but Well, we got it. Yes. Hair of our chinny chin chin.

Alex Ferrari 55:43
I love these. I love these stories, because you know, filmmakers who have not been able to make the first movie yet or even the first short. This is the reality of what directing is. Oh, yeah. It's all its compromised and problem solving. It's all compromise and problem solving. And by the way, it for everyone listening, it can happen at the level of making a fan film. And it can happen at the level of making a real Star Wars giant, big bunch of Star Wars movie. I've heard the stories they've been people. People go crazy. I had a director on the other day, who made you know, $200 million movie and they're like, Yeah, we were we were with the sun was going down. We had we only had that day with that stat action sequence. So we just shot the damn thing and a wide. And and we have two other cameras, and oh, no, that's that action sequence had seven cameras. When the moment came for the shot, only one two worked. While everything else was done,

Jason Satterlund 56:41
Yeah, that happens. It doesn't matter what the project is. It could be anything. But this is what you plan. This is the importance of planning of meticulous you no further than you even want to go. When I did my first film, the $12,000. One I couldn't throw money at my problems. So I had I went and measured every single location and put it on grid paper and how big each room was. And I could measure like Will it dolly track even fit in this hallway, or is it going to be a moot point so that I could really so when I got to the location, I knew exactly what I was gonna do, because problems, they just will happen. On my last feature the abandoned. We had to do a wartime sequence that opens with these two soldiers caught in a firefight. Well, first of all, we're shooting it's supposed to be at a rack. And we were shooting in Spokane, Washington surrounded by snow. So we had all this snow that we were trying to frame out, we had about four lights and a couple of flame bars and we're setting the scene up and the DP gets a migraine. And it's so bad that he can't stand up straight. And so our entire production grinds to a halt because he is just in agony and can barely hold his head up. By the time we got that fixed, we only had like two hours to get the whole thing. So the only way it worked was because he and I had very meticulously everything was storyboarded, we knew exactly what shots to get and what we needed to pull off of the action scene, the only way you'll get it done. And that's that holds true for every single project that you do. Plan more than you'll ever think you'll need to.

Alex Ferrari 58:23
Now, one last question I have in regards to the fan film brother, the VFX. Man, how did you get those done on a budget and make them look good on all of your all of your fan films because that's something that that's that's always the sticking point. And then if I may, if I may tell you just one little Star Wars fan film story, of course of one I was going to I wasn't going to do it. I was brought in as a VFX supervisor in 2006, I think I think six or seven I was called in because I had done a lot of visual effects on my my first short film that went did viral and did a whole bunch of good stuff for me. And, and this guy came in and he was absolutely mad. Like, he was so mad. In his mind. He was delusional. He was crazy. And he thought that he truly thought that George Lucas was going to come and give him a job. Like, it wasn't even. It wasn't even a thought in his mind that that wasn't going to happen. So they shows me this, like this thing that he's so proud of. And I'm looking at it and I'm like, It's okay, it's okay. It's fine. But then it's like I need you to get rid of all of these. These stunt guys, rig rig and all the cables, all the wiring and all the wiring and the green screen and stuff. But I'm like okay, this is 2006 Okay. 2006 So everyone listening 2006 V effects and capabilities at the budget level of an indie film. And there's no trackers

Jason Satterlund 59:57
Anywhere. Oh man.

Alex Ferrari 59:59
There's no track Think marks anywhere. And it would have to be hand painted, shot by shot in 2006 with 2006 technology, as far as processing power and everything today, it could be done. It'd be a pain, but it can be done much quicker, much easier than it wasn't. And I talked about did you hear it you useless you can't go anywhere with it. And then he's like, Oh, you just don't know what you're doing. And he went off and did it. And he wouldn't often try to get it done somewhere else. And I always wondered whatever happened to it. So a year later, I checked to see if it still wasn't finished. I don't even know if it ever got finished. But it was it was. So the delay, and I'm sure you've run into some delusional filmmakers along your path over the years, and it's sad to see that because we've all have like, we have to be a little delusional to do what we do. Yeah, to think that you could go on to make a Kenobi short film in the middle of the desert with a bunch of Stormtroopers and lightsaber battle. You gotta be a little insane. So there's that got to be a little great. But you got to be able to balance that off. So anyway, that was my little VFX story. So I have to ask, how did you get?

Jason Satterlund 1:01:04
So when it comes to VFX, I tried to be as practical as I possibly can. It doesn't matter if I'm doing because we, I approached my last feature the same way. So with, I've seen a lot of shorts and features that basically never get released. Because of the VFX. I have a friend who's working on a short right now. And they're trying to create this floating orb thing that is given him fits. Because, man, we got to shade it, right. So it looks organic in the scene, like it's, it's and there's like, you know, 50 shots with it in there, like it just grew exponentially grows, because they didn't really think about while they're filming, is there a way to do this where I don't have to make a VFX shot for every single shot. So I think it's really important to think about that. I try not to shoot green screen whenever I can. I try to do as much practical as I can. And if I know I'm going to need to map out whatever a ship flying by in the background, to try to incorporate in as much realism as I can. So here's a perfect example in Kenobi in the beginning of it, he's in a sandstorm. And every single person on the crew weirdly thought I was going to do that digitally. Which was like, why would I do you know we made that we had two leaf blowers and a bag of dirt and a couple of fans. And you're out the door? Well, yeah, like you just had we kind of staggered a couple of fans deeper into the shot so like they would continue to blow the dirt. We had used fuller's earth, it was really light and fluffy. We had a leaf blower right behind the camera blasting Jamie in the face. Wow. And he and I talked about this since like, it's really effective for him as an actor to like have the visceral wind blowing, he's just fighting against it. It really helped him and to keep his face safe. We just blew smoke into his face as opposed to dirt. So it had two layers to it. The dirts heavier the smoke is lighter. And that's it. And it became a I think a pretty realistic windstorm. So lightsabers are pretty easy to do to be honest. Your facts nowadays they are

Alex Ferrari 1:03:17
Yeah, yeah.

Jason Satterlund 1:03:18
Now I will say on forcing the theory. The crew is much smaller. And there is this moment in in the film. I think it's like five minutes and 46 seconds where I've didn't put the I think I missed it in the reflection of a piece of pane of glass. If you scroll through the comments of that video, like everyone's like, four to six, you missed the lightsaber, fake lame, like everybody's like, Oh, by the way you screwed up. Thanks. Thanks for letting me know like, it's it's hilarious asters jerks are not perfect. I know it's hard to really, lightsaber steps are pretty easy. But when you start to go beyond that, I would strive to be as practical as possible. In my feature, the abandoned we had to do some weightless stuff. We there's multiple sequences in the film. And the premise of the film is this guy trapped in this cube. So essentially a large 20 by 20 room. And at several points in the film, gravity starts to change and he gets thrown all around inside the box. We basically used every camera trick in the book to make that happen. We built sets on their side, we built them in V shapes, we had rotating boxes like Inception, we did wire work, we had a camera on what's called a lambda heads so that the camera could be tilted to the side. So when he's going sideways to the camera, it looks like he's flowing from top of the frame to the bottom of the frame. So like we did every kind of trick in the book. And it's crazy how some of those simple camera tricks actually will do huge favors for you. I would go there first when you're doing VFX look at what the camera can do for you, as opposed to this third Green screen up. And I figured out how to do it later that that usually is a recipe for problems

Alex Ferrari 1:05:06
Listen, I have a many good friends who work in the VFX VFX world. And they work on Marvel Movie Star Wars movies, Bond movies, and I've seen some of the shots that they get to clean up and I'm like these aren't these professionals? Aren't these professional filmmakers making these shots? Now like dude, and I'm talking about Oscar winning filmmakers, who just like, whatever, let them deal with it. And they do because they have the money to do so when you're making or making any film. You just can't do that.

Jason Satterlund 1:05:39
Yeah, if you're in a position where you can't throw money at your problems, try to find a way not to use the VFX. And I don't mean that you can't have the effect. Doesn't mean you can't use the explosion or something. But there are so many cool to go look at the original Dracula. Do you ever seen Dracula with the one that was started by Allah 92 So some of the stuff that he did, and that was practical was all magic tricks systems, the

Alex Ferrari 1:06:08
All of it was practical. Very,

Jason Satterlund 1:06:11
I mean, there's facts in there. I can't figure out how they did like when he turns into a demon thing and he backs up into the corner and you just see his eyes. And then the lights turn on and it's all rats. Like that's some sort of in camera trick that they did it is yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:06:24
I'm kind of an expert in that film because it was one of my favorite films growing theory as the criterion LaserDisc. So I discovered a lot of those. Cool. So just as like Kiana Reeves walks in to Dracula's castle for the first time. This is something so simple. This is Copalis genius. They do a close up shot of his foot crossing the threshold. They shot that in reverse. Oh, they did. And they just that that little hesitation. Just makes you go there's something wrong here. Something as simple as that. And then every other trick he did an old school like, you know from the silent era. He was using all sorts of in camera tricks, matte paintings. That's all he did a lot of hand crank over crank under crank reverse shots. He did every man if anybody wants to see how they how master shoots practically go watch Dracula, Bram Stoker's Dracula with Gary Oldman and went on a writer. Absolutely a masterpiece. Absolutely.

Jason Satterlund 1:07:27
Well, yeah, that's a perfect test. Yeah, that's perfect. Because I would say that's, that's the real key to making practical effects work. So when we didn't Kenobi there's a bunch of laser laser, blasters shooting glasses. laser guns. Wow, I just wow, that's not very Star Wars. The Stormtroopers are shooting blasters. Well, we didn't want to just do the blasters. What we had was we had a paintball gun with dust hits. So we're hitting the ground with actual dust hits. And then when you layer in the blaster shot, it just makes it feel more organic and the same. That is the key to making VFX work is seeing how much you can build on your own. And then the VFX just becomes a nice little polish to the top of it.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:17
So it's a it's a nice layer on the cake. Absolutely. That's same thing I did with my first short film, I use air airsoft guns that actually had blowback shot, I would do the muzzle flash digitally, and I would light up the scene. The guy's face in shake, so we'd light up to face and went but the gun was shooting off. Yeah, and it looked like a real gun. That was the thing I always got. So pissed off about indie films is like, the guns never had blowback. But when I found an airsoft gun, I was like, Oh, that's good. So if you could combine practical with with it, it's always the ethics and if you're smart, and you do it that way in, in, even in a big budget films, that's when things start looking really, really good was a movie that just came out that was well, I mean, I just saw the Bond film. The other day, they knew that no, no time to die. And you just are no no, I was that Top Gun. Yeah, practically all practical. And it just you could sense that you can feel it you can sense that it's something that you just can't do in the camera and digital effects.

Jason Satterlund 1:09:20
That it just it just has that visceral feel like yeah, no difference between Lord of the Rings in The Hobbit like it's

Alex Ferrari 1:09:27
Yeah, no question about it. Now tell me about the new film abandoned, man. How did you get that? How did you get that off the ground? How did you get the financing for it? All that kind of good stuff.

Jason Satterlund 1:09:37
So the abandoned Yeah, it was a really interesting story. So I met the writer at The Austin screenwriter Festival, which if you're a screenwriter, I cannot recommend that festival enough. It is probably one of the best festivals I've ever been to excellent panels and speakers and things like that. So I went there and I met Dwayne oreille. He was on a panel we became fast friends. And he sent me a script that it was one of those I sat down to read it. Thinking, I'll just read the opening scene and go to bed. I read the opening scene, I'm like, Whoa, this is this is really, really good. And I let me just read the next scene. Before I knew it, I'd finished the whole thing. I've never happens, read the script, front to back. I was blown away. And it the whole thing is essentially about a soldier who is in the middle of a firefight in Iraq, he gets hit with a bright light, and he wakes up in this room. That's like a prison cell with no doors, no windows, no exits, no furniture, nobody talks to me has no idea how we got there is all his weapons and equipment. And then things start getting weird. Writing starts appearing on the wall. And, you know, gravity starts to act odd and the room the temperature of the room starts to fluctuate really wildly from freezing, freezing cold to incredibly hot temperatures. And every time you think you know what's happening, it changes. And essentially, the whole premise of the movie is that he's he's got to try to escape. And the only person he can find help him is someone on the phone, who claims to be in identical room. And it's a big mystery from there. And it was an incredible script. And as you're reading it, it's like, this would be a great low budget film, because it's one actor in a room. How easy would that to be? Little did I know. But so I took it to a production company. And they immediately liked it. It was it was just someone else. Actually, I met them in Mammoth, I met them. After one of their screenings, we became fast friends again, pass them the script, they said, This looks good. And boom, it was kind of what you dream of Hope happening when it comes to getting films off the ground. You know, after all the years of struggle, this one just like boop, boop, boop just kind of fell together. And it was very cool. That so that's how it was born. The shooting of it was a whole other thing. Because, you know, when you read a script about one guy trapped in a room, and you think this would be super easy to shoot, then you sit down to shoot it, you're like, How the hell am I gonna shoot this? It's one guy in a room and I can't cut away from the room because it's like, you can't cut to the next day, because you were in the room with him. How am I going to cover that? And man, that was tough to figure out how to do it. It was like directing a play, to be honest. It really forced me to pull out my all the stops when it comes to working with an actor because it's all on the actor space. And it's all about them, giving a good performance and making it believable that he's trapped there. Yeah, so

Alex Ferrari 1:12:52
That's awesome. It's gonna be picked up by Lionsgate?

Jason Satterlund 1:12:57
Right! It got picked up by Lionsgate. I don't know where it's gonna go from there. There's rumors, it'll get the magical. We're all hoping for that. But I don't 100% now. It's called the abandon. Yeah, and I'm exceedingly proud of this film, and very well, it's, it's got a lot of really positive reviews, people are really enjoying it. It's a sci fi thriller on the vein of like, primer or the queue. I mean, the obvious comparison is the cube but as a smarter version of the cube, I think because it's, it's it's very emotional kind of journey to for these characters.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:33
And how did you raise the money for it?

Jason Satterlund 1:13:36
While the production company that I went to Milhouse they, they funded it.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:41
Awesome, dude. That's a great it's good work if you can get it, sir.

Jason Satterlund 1:13:46
Now what, that's what I love about this industry is it's all possible. Anything and everything is possible. You know, it's is it easy is it hard yet? It can be very difficult but but not impossible. You can actually get there and it was this is just one of those cases where everything fell together really well. Yeah, it's I love it. I love it.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:09
I'm so glad maybe you could see could sense the the love coming from the other side of the screen about your project, man. It's It's so awesome. I hope I hope it does. Well for humanity. And you keep and you keep rockin and rollin, man, I want to see some more cool stuff from you, man. Yeah, absolutely. It was nice to see us old folks, you know, man, watch. I know my head still thinks I'm 25 But then when you could feel when it's gonna rain. Oh, clouds coming back.

Jason Satterlund 1:14:45
I love this industry. I love making it. You know what, it's a privilege to do this? Absolutely. I was on a I was on a shoot recently, where we were out in Joshua Tree. We had to get up it was interesting because we got number four o'clock in the morning. It was really long commute. We had a hump all the gear out to the base of this clicker shooting a rock climber. And I looked over at the first AC and the gaffer. And I'm like, isn't as cool. Like, Isn't this cool? What we're doing? And they laughed at me. They were like, they thought I was being sarcastic. I said, No, no, I'm serious. Like, look at where we are. We're in Joshua Tree getting paid to shoot a rock climber. Are we tired? Sure. But we're getting to participate in the magic of storytelling. And it isn't. There's a lot of people in the world who would love to do this who can't. And we're privileged to be a part of it. And it is the best job in the world. As far as I'm concerned.

Alex Ferrari 1:15:47
I agree with you. But I could only imagine that the gaffer in the grip they were talking to were just like this bitch. Carrying all the freaking gear across the rocks of Joshua. And this guy's like, Hey, guys, is this great? It's like, Screw you, man. Screw you, dude. My back's killing me. But you are absolutely right, sir. Now I'm gonna ask you a few questions. Ask all of my guests. Yeah, what advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Jason Satterlund 1:16:18
You know, find a mentor. Because I personally wasted a lot of time fishing around to try to figure out how to get from A to B years or waste years and years, I burn just not having someone to ask advice to. And they don't have to be Spielberg. They can be anyone who's further down the road than you are like, I wish I wish I had someone to even tell me where to live, or how to budget or anything like that, that could have saved me a lot of pain. Yeah, so yeah. 100% find someone to connect to.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:56
What is the what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Jason Satterlund 1:17:03
You know, I'm gonna go back to the whole thing about the mental attitude. The Battle of keeping the optimism in your life keeping that spark there. It's become so important to me that I will listen to motivational speakers on my pillow before I go to sleep. I've just heard people like a Tony Robbins, or a Wayne Dyer like, of just keeping your eyes up and not cry into the position that you're in. And you know, a lot and just understanding that the position that you're in is probably the one that you chose. So

Alex Ferrari 1:17:42
And it's temporary. And it's temporary. Yeah,

Jason Satterlund 1:17:44
If life is if there's anything consistent about this business is that it's inconsistent. You know, it's it goes up, it goes down, it goes up put seasons of harvest and seasons of scarcity. It just happens. And just the, it's, and I'm still it's still a process. It's not like I've got it all figured out. But like, seeing this business, for the beauty that it is and the creativity that it can be and how to fight the frustrations that come, you know, to focus on the abundance in your life as opposed to the scarcity. I think it's a big one for filmmakers. Because it's really easy to think about what I don't have the job that I don't have, or that someone else got ahead of me or the money. Gosh, I wish I had x dollars in my account, or I wish I had a manager or an agent, instead of all you're going to do is continue to attract that into your life. If you keep focusing on what you don't have, you're basically going to attract the same thing. So instead of shifting it to look how amazing how many amazing talented friends I have, these are talented, wonderful people who bring opportunities to me. You know, it's like if you find a penny on the ground, you're walking down the street, you see a penny on the ground, you have two ways to look at it. You can say great, that's all I get is a penny. Compare that to what all I can get in my career as a wedding video, great screw your universe, or you can look at that Penny and go. I am so surrounded by abundance, that money is falling from the sky. It changed it can change everything for you so that and it's it's a process to retrain your mind like that. But I believe it's very key to to the survival.

Alex Ferrari 1:19:27
Amen, brother. Amen. Preach brother preach. And, and what are three of your favorite films of all time?

Jason Satterlund 1:19:33
Ah, man three, it's hard to narrow it down. I always fall back to my favorite film of all time as aliens and I'm sure other people probably said that but so just imagine all the elements I love it's it's Semester Action is part thriller. It's comedy. It's got great all the characters are very three dimensional and thought out and it's got great escalations, it's it's a, it's just such I love them and we've always loved it. It's kind of movies I'd love to make I'd have to throw back to the future in their massive back the future,

Alex Ferrari 1:20:04
You could throw the trilogy you could put all three this one, that's fine.

Jason Satterlund 1:20:08
It's about as close as it gets to a perfect movie. It's pretty much the way it's built. The way it's laid out is is absolute brilliance. And you know, I probably put the third one up there as maybe Raiders. Yeah, gotta throw it over. I mean, how cool is that? What a cool. Such a good movie. And all these films hold up, by the way, like you're watching them now. And they're still great. Still.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:34
I'm waiting for the moment that I give my daughters Back to the Future. I'm waiting. I'm waiting. I'm waiting a minute. Just so they understand. And they appreciate it. So I just got them through three seasons of Stranger Things. Oh, there you go. And they were like, Hey, what is that movie that they're walking out of? I'm like this back to the future. Can we watch that? I'm like soon. Soon.

Where can people find out more about you and the work you're doing brother?

Jason Satterlund 1:21:03
Yeah, so you know I've got my website which is Jasonsatterlund.com. I'm also on the old IG at the same place Jason Satterlund and on YouTube Jason Satterlund when you just look me up on YouTube. You'll find me I am here.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:18
Jason man. It has been an absolute pleasure talking to another film geek and and elder statesman in a contemporary sir, I appreciate you brother. Thank you for for the the knowledge bombs you've dropped and hopefully this has helped the filmmaker avoid a little bit a couple of pieces of shrapnel that's going to come their way. But I appreciate you brother. Continued success my friend.

Jason Satterlund 1:21:43
Thank you!

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Jambox.io – Royalty Free Music for Indie Films – 20% OFF (Coupon Code: HUSTLE20)
  2. Need Distribution for Your Film? – Check This Out!
  3. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  4. Audible – Get a Free Filmmaking or Screenwriting Audiobook

IFH 608: Hot Tub Time Machine, High Fidelity & Directing in Hollywood with Steve Pink

Steve Pink’s career as a writer, producer, and director is inextricably linked to his pal John Cusack. Pink co-wrote the screenplay for the 1997 black comedy “Grosse Pointe Blank,” where Cusack played a deadpan assassin, and also worked on the adaptation of Nick Hornby’s novel “High Fidelity,” which was made into a film for Cusack in 2000.

Pink had co-producer credits on both movies, and, in 2010, he finally directed Cusack in the ’80s flashback comedy “Hot Tub Time Machine.” Pink got his start as an actor in the Cusack movie “The Sure Thing” in ’85; he also appeared in “Grosse Pointe Blank” and played a limo driver in the comedy “America’s Sweethearts,” where Cusack was paired with Julia Roberts and Catherine Zeta-Jones. Fittingly.

Pink has worked as a co-executive producer on the TV series “Entourage,” a tribute to male friendship in show business, and he has stepped up as producer on the Tom Cruise vehicle “Knight and Day.”

His new film is The Wheel.

Albee and Walker, a young couple on the brink of divorce, rent a mountain getaway to save their fledgling marriage. Before long, their personal drama creates tension between their newly engaged AirBnB hosts — Ben & Carly — leaving us to wonder if either couples’ relationships will survive the weekend. Cast: Amber Midthunder, Taylor Gray, Bethany Anne Lind, Nelson Lee, Carly Nykanen, Kevin Pasdon. 

Available on DIGITAL and ON DEMAND, July 22nd.

Enjoy my conversation with Steve Pink.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Steve Pink 0:00
You know the thing that you love and inspired by the most? Or is the thing that the thing that you should that you know more about than anyone else like there's this thought that well, you you know you're not in the business so you don't know anything right but what you you know you don't know anything and anything in quotes means all the things that you know are the complexities and nuances of of being in the movie business. But what you do know is what your idea is, you have command of your idea, and you have command over what story you want to tell.

Alex Ferrari 0:31
This episode is brought to you by Bulletproof Script Coverage, where screenwriters go to get their scripts read by Top Hollywood Professionals. Learn more at covermyscreenplay.com I'd like to welcome to the show Steve Pink man. How you doin Steve?

Steve Pink 0:46
Good, man. Thanks for having me.

Alex Ferrari 0:47
Thank you so much for coming on the show man. Like I was telling you earlier. But I've been I've been a fan of yours for a while, you know, watching the insanity that is your filmography.

Steve Pink 0:58
I appreciate that. I do I do

Alex Ferrari 1:00
With all the love the insanity with all the love in the world.

Steve Pink 1:03
Yeah, I mean, for good or ill I willingly engaged in all the madness, you know, that I chose to? So I have no, I can't run from it. I'm responsible.

Alex Ferrari 1:12
So first question, but how and why did you want to get into this insanity that is the film industry?

Steve Pink 1:19
Well, I didn't really know it was going to be that insane. Although I will say I kind of lived a pretty chaotic life growing up. So it didn't actually feel that insane to me. I grew up with a for whatever reason, maybe my social group, maybe my upbringing, a really strong sense of the absurd, like, I thought the world was insane. at a very early age. Maybe because I had jobs really early. I actually I worked at a I worked at a bar in the eighth grade. as a busboy and dishwasher. I worked Wednesday, Friday, Saturday nights, till midnight on Wednesday nights and until one or two in the morning on Friday, Saturday. And then by the time I was a sophomore in high school, I was the short order cook. And at that same restaurant, so I did, there was a pizza side and the restaurant side, and I did you know Italian beef burgers, chicken, you know, whatever, you know, all you know, sandwiches, stuff like that. So you know, maybe just my exposure to the world just made me think everything is crazy. Adults are crazy. And so I felt really comfortable, I guess in the world of chaos. That's, that's the only thing I could really attribute it to. So no, I didn't think it was that that insane when I first started? I mean, I do now of course.

Alex Ferrari 2:38
I love that. I love it. But now of course, I mean, obviously now I understand. But it's gonna be we ran away to the circus. I mean, that's, that's the insanity of what we do is filmmakers we run away.

Steve Pink 2:48
I mean, we're Yeah, I mean, we're engaged in storytelling. I mean, to me when you're engaged in storytelling, and the more I do it, and more I've done it, the, the I realized, I've been telling stories to myself outside the film industry, my whole life, like we tell, like we were, you know, like narrative. It took me a long time to realize that everything was narrative, like it was like, well, there's real life. And then there's, you know, then there's creating dramatic narrative for film and television or theater, whatever. And then I'm like, wait a minute, it's terrifying to of course, realize that there is no difference. You're capturing, you know, moments in time, or characters on journeys to tell stories inside, you know, the dramatic content or comedy or whatever. And then we as an audience all view it right. But to pretend like we go home and be like, oh, yeah, that's just, you know, that's just the movies and and, and now I'm living in reality, separate from that is false, you know. And so once I realized that it actually made me feel both worse and better, if that makes sense. Because that's just what we're engaged in. So if you're engaged in it all the time, it can drive you crazy. Like there are people who just like, Okay, enough, like you're in a narrative, I get it. Just live your life, like enjoy your life and live it. And don't, you know, be so analytical and neurotic all the time about everything, but you know, I can't help it. So what was I saying? So?

Alex Ferrari 4:05
Exactly, exactly, sir. Exactly. Yeah.

Steve Pink 4:08
So I mean, yeah, so I think being you know, in, you know, being engaged in a creative field, your whole life, as you know, is an interesting choice. And I love it. And it's caused me all kinds of terrorists, but I think that's probably true. To be fair of everything anyone does in mind. You know, like, I would never not say that someone who owned a restaurant feels any different.

Alex Ferrari 4:27
Oh, no, absolutely. I mean, I've owned retail before, and it's insane. It's an insanity to do any. There's insanity and all levels. It's just that we are the most one of the most high profile of levels of insanity because everyone sees what we do, and consumes much of what we do as well. Now, is there something that you wish someone would have told you at the beginning of your career? If you could go back in time and talk to yourself? What would be the one thing you might do? Do you know what you really need to look out for it's this

Steve Pink 4:58
Wow, that's a really interesting Good question. You know, if I listened, you know, I said, as I said, before we went on that I listened to a few of your podcasts, and they're really fascinating. Great. And, you know, I should have searched the podcasts, you know, more deeply so that I could have had an answer. I couldn't borrow the answer to that question from one of your other guests. Something someone would have said to me that I wished they had told me. Hmm, that's a really good question.

Alex Ferrari 5:27
Like, for me, or for me, for me, like if it was me, I answered my own question. Patients, man, it's gonna take you a lot longer than you think it's ever going to take you to do what you want to do.

Steve Pink 5:37
Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, I was very, very lucky in the way I got in, but I, so I didn't feel that as much. And maybe that was a curse in and of itself. I think the other thing is, it's way harder. And I heard, as we've talked about this, when maybe that comes to mind, it is way more difficult to actually execute the thing that you want to execute, even when you get the opportunity. So you have these dreams of doing it, right. And then you even get the opportunity to do it, and then you're in front of it, doing it, and then you fail utterly. And you're like, Well, wait, you know, I thought that I would, once I got the moment, I'd be able to, because I think it's tricky, there's so many elements, to doing something that's good and interesting, you know, when you're on the floor, and you have a camera, and you've have a script and all of your actors, you still have to kind of, you know, be open to, you know, this thing, this magic, and I hate using that word, but you know, this magical thing kind of has to happen, even if you have all the elements, you know, under your control, you still have to create it, you know, create an environment and then get lucky, and atmosphere and then get lucky where something cool and interesting happens that that matches what you had in mind when you cast it, and when you you know, built the you know, when you build the set or, or cast the actors and rehearsed and so so it's, so it's a kind of intangible thing. And so, I think I think I took that for granted a little bit. And it's not that I took it for granted, I just was not aware of it. So if someone said to me, Hey, Matt, you know, be aware, you know, it's, it's, it's gonna be so much more difficult, the more you do it not less, better and better. And it's never ending, you know,

Alex Ferrari 7:16
Well, it's compromised, that's all we do as directors is compromised, it's like, every day, no matter how much money you have, no matter who's in front of the camera, you gotta compromise your vision in many ways. And a lot of times, it's better than what you ever thought of, when you hit when you allow that magic to happen. It's when the director wants to control. Every little thing is when if you hold on too tight, it's like trying to hold on to water. Like it just slips right through your fingers.

Steve Pink 7:42
Yeah, I mean, aren't, you know, I'm sure this is probably a cliche, someone wrote down somewhere. But art is limitation, right. So you are limited by whatever you are limited by in any given moment. And you know, money might not be your limitation in that moment, you're the son could be your limitation, you know, your limitations, like there's so many different things. And, you know, that's why, you know, you I used to be really angry when I'd see, you know, movies that had what would would seem seemingly? Well, when you see a movie with seemingly limitless budget, you know, and then it's not good, you have that, you know, you have that besides the shot on Friday, or whatever you have that feeling of, like, Was it because you had a lack of limitation. And so you just went, you know, because of that lack of limitation, you weren't critical in terms of like, what you needed to tell a good story? Or were you limited by things I didn't even you know, that far, you know, beyond me, and those limitations are what kept you from telling a good story, you know, because it's hard to get your head around, you know, when it's 150 or $200 million movie, how it could be how it could, you know, not work, not work. And so, and so I think, yeah, I think it's a constant struggle for all of us at every level. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 8:57
It is frustrating to see a movie that has watched them all the time, you know, you watch something on Netflix, and you're like, who gave them money? Like, why? Like, how did that happen? You know, and then you go, there's

Steve Pink 9:09
Something you know, is the reason right? You can say, Oh, well, because of this, you

Alex Ferrari 9:13
It was the actor was the location. It was the the executives this, you know, the script was they had to rush it to get it out before. There's 1000 things that could happen. But it's still frustrating when you when you see something like that, especially when you're in the business. And you're like, Well, I and then of course in the back of every director's head were like, well, we could have done better.

Steve Pink 9:29
What well, I also think like, Yeah, I mean, I also think like, you know, I would try my damnedest to do better if I had all the resources, right? I mean, I don't really think hey, I could have done that better. As much as I think like, I was like, boy, you know, I would have liked the shot to be on the floor instead of you. Like, I don't know if I could have done it better, but shit, I couldn't have done it worse. Right. Exactly.

Alex Ferrari 9:52
And it's fascinating because I mean, I've had the pleasure of talking to some directors who have worked in those $200 million 100 $50 million budgets. And I was asked I'm like, What's it like, you know, working in that environment where you've got like the biggest movie stars in the world and anything you want, like I remember when I was coming up in high school, True Lies was shooting in Miami. And you know, Jim Cameron was already Jim Cameron at that point. And I went on I went on the set I was, you know, just hanging out not on the set, but like, you know, outskirts of the set. And I just remember seeing the gym had every toy. You can imagine. Sitting there. Techno, steady, helicopter. Everything, just in case you wanted it. Not like I need the techno for the day. No, no, no, no, the techno was there. The entire shoot, in case something eat gets tickled to do a techno shot. That's amazing.

Steve Pink 10:53
Amazing. And you know, looking at his work, you're like, yes, you deserve to have like for sure.

Alex Ferrari 11:01
Every every brush do you want sir, you should have Chris Nolan, David Fincher, these kinds of filmmakers they need what? Give them what they want.

Steve Pink 11:10
Yeah. And I bet they, they I bet they also have I bet they're also very good at planning, you know, like, the more that which they're going to do. You know, the, you know, like, all their shots are so planned. And they're so hard, what they're doing that you know, that you're not just you're not just deciding to, you know, get out and get it going to put a camera in the helicopter like spontaneously in maybe even they have the opportunity to do that. But it's beyond all their planning. For sure. You know,

Alex Ferrari 11:38
Without question. You mentioned that you mentioned that you kind of had a break early on, what was that first big break for you?

Steve Pink 11:47
Well, I was very lucky because I so I met John Cusack in high school because we well, we became friends. But we became friends through a, like a student run comedy variety show that that was kind of like it still runs today. It's like a very famous, like, you know, it's one of those, you know, 50 year running variety shows that they do every year that the student run since Ron and I applied to be the writer director, I've my senior year, and so did John and so to two other guys. And so then we found ourselves, you know, the summer before senior year writing the show together and that's how we became friends. And then

Alex Ferrari 12:23
And but John was already Jami, he was already Yeah, he's acting already. He was already a star. I mean, quote, unquote, a star in the ad star already. He already done better off dead and stuff like that, right?

Steve Pink 12:33
Yeah, it's pretty good. But he had done that or not. I don't know if he had done better off dead actually yet, but you've been working. You've already been working? Oh, yeah. You did the shirt he had done. I think he was just doing the shirt thing he had done class, I believe I think classic come out. But you know, it's interesting. I went to a huge public high school we had like almost 4000 kids. And there were so many really hot, there were so many high fliers and all these different categories that actually, John wasn't, you know, obviously, he was the he was, you know, he was famous and he got a lot of attention for being you know, this young actor who might be a movie star. But, you know, it was just a very competitive public high school. So it never really felt like out of proportion. Like there were plenty like there was like, oh, yeah, Johnson really cool actors like, Oh, there's the guy who's going to the NBA. There's, you know, like, there's, you know, our class valedictorian is going to Harvard, like, and she's, you know, going to do great things like, oh, like one of our closest friends went on to be nominated for a Pulitzer in journalism. She was already running the school newspaper, and then went to the, I think the deal School of Journalism at Northwestern, like, there were just so many from, from our perspective, there's so many people doing so many things.

Alex Ferrari 13:38
So it was one of many very cool people.

Steve Pink 13:40
Yeah, often to balance out, you know, there was like, there was like, 900, I think, in our graduating class, and there's at least, you know, maybe 150 or 20 people that I think was like this community of ours, you know, we were all doing so, you know, really cool. And I feel like everyone was doing really cool things. But in any case, we, you know, full of ourselves, obviously. And so, yeah, so then, over the years through while I was going to college, Johnny started working with Tim Robbins, in a theatre company called the actors game. Then I went and did a show with the, with the actors gang in between, like in the summers between going to school and I actually got replaced by Jack Black for a show in 1980s. I'm dating myself in the late 80s. Because I had to go back to Berkeley and the show extended so then check to cover my part, which I think I only had 12 lines and I moved a lot of scenery, frankly, it's true. And then Johnny and I formed a theatre company with a bunch of other actors called new crime productions. And I was after college I was a social worker, actually. For for the I was an outreach caseworker for the homeless mentally ill, that was my job after college. And Johnny had gone out to LA and I was running the theatre company and working as a social worker and he Um, he had got a producing deal. Brandon Tartikoff, who was a, like a legendary network chief was like, went on to run Paramount Pictures, he gave John a producing deal. Then John asked me to run the company with him. And so that's how I got my start. So I was extremely.

Alex Ferrari 15:19
So it's a story that everyone, everyone goes to that I mean, obvious is the obvious story. I mean, I too, became good friends with Brad Pitt. And I've been working with Brad for years now.

Steve Pink 15:28
Yeah, it's lucky. It's a lucky and ridiculous events have happened to me to walk. It's amazing. The door. It was amazing. And then, you know, you know, the, so I was very, very lucky. And then we were still tasked with doing something good. And that there's that balance? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we had to actually, you know, and I felt the pressure of that, too, you know, like, we were young men, and it was, I was starting to run his company. And and it was challenging to get to know the business from that vantage point. And then try and create something with John that stood out and would be something that we wanted that, you know, stood out as, as the kind of movie and stories we wanted to tell him to. And that's a challenge, especially since you know, again, it's, you know, we walked to have the opportunity to walk through that door. It's just, it's just beyond extraordinary. So once you start talking about, well, it's hard once we got in, you know, anyone listening is like, Yeah, well, you just had like this golden ticket. So how hard was it? It's hard to so just put, you know, so it's hard to kind of, you know, to, like that is true. But then because you have to do something good. And you have to comply with the industry and actually get movies made and try and do it. You know, I felt like it's square one everywhere.

Alex Ferrari 16:42
Right! Exactly. You know, and because I've been able to talk to so many of these, these filmmakers who have had these kind of lottery ticket moments. I mean, you had kind of a lot of long lottery ticket moment with, you know, meeting just happened to become friends with John Kuzak at the time of his career and what this was all going on. And you guys gelled, and it worked. But then you got people like Kevin Smith, or Robert Rodriguez, or Ed burns, or any of these guys. And the one thing I've always discovered talking to all these guys, is that you might have been lucky getting in the door. Right place, right time, right movie, right situation. There's a lot of those kinds of stories through Hollywood. But staying in the door, is where the work starts. So yeah, you might have had a little bit of an opening. But man, it's not easy staying in that room. You could get invited in that room. But you could have easily just been like and security very easily.

Steve Pink 17:33
Yeah, I mean, the doors, the door opens as you know, the door opens and closes and you have to keep prying it open. You know, I think that you know, there's very few filmmakers, even legendary ones who have like whole palaces of doors open for them. I still wake up in the morning with, you know, a crowbar ready to pry door open. I think that's just what we do. And it's just, it's just the nature of it. And so I That's true. me for sure. And continue to stay. That can be my segue to the wheel.

Alex Ferrari 18:06
Which we'll get to get to your new movie the wheel? Absolutely.

Steve Pink 18:09
Yeah. I mean, well, we talked about that later. But like, that's another just another example of something. And when we get to it, that, that it was like, Oh, I see an opportunity to do something and do explore something that I hadn't had the opportunity that I haven't had the opportunity to do. And you know, when you go down that road, it's just like anything else, you know, you're just continue to want to work and try and make something good. And that's what we do for a living.

Alex Ferrari 18:31
So I mean, you were obviously involved with one of my favorite movies of the 90s Grosse Pointe Blank. It is such an insane idea. You know, a hitman goes back to his high school reunion and he's having issues and it was such a brilliant film. How did you is that something that came from you? From you? And John, how did that whole because it like I tell people that movie would never get made today just wouldn't get me today in the studio system. It'd be very difficult.

Steve Pink 19:01
Yeah, although it'd be made in television. Right. You know, like, I feel like a series Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I feel like Barry has some you know, is reminiscent in a grand they, they've like taken off and done. Like if I could have made the series if like if there was more stories around that. I mean, but those guys didn't extraordinary. You know, that I love that show so so because of things that reminds me of from my first movie and then all the things that they're that all the things they've done to to explore that concept is so brilliant and so fun, and I love it so much. And so, you know, the I just have to say it sounds horrible that I'm saying this because it sounds like Oh, great. I thought a berry which is not the case like I stole all kinds of things to make Grosse Pointe Blank happen, right like the President's analysts, which is this quirky, weird 70s movie about? I think these bad guys trying to kill the psychiatrist of the President, I believe although it's been so many years, like they were all kinds of movies like that, that I loved and influence me. So by no means am I saying I don't even know if I influenced them in any way, it's just we share a similar idea. So I don't want to be kind of misconstrued as

Alex Ferrari 20:15
No, of course, of course. Alright. So how did that how did that come to be?

Steve Pink 20:20
Oh, so, yeah, so we got this deal at Paramount, and then we would get, you know, submissions in and I didn't even know that you weren't supposed to read unsolicited material. I didn't, I didn't know the distinction. You know, I guess the answer your earlier question, which is, what what do you wish someone would have told me prior to getting into Hollywood? And I guess the answer would have been, well, everything about producing because I didn't know anything, no one told me anything. I was just suddenly sitting in an office in Paramount, I mean, Paramount Pictures, and I was trying to, like figure out, like, what would be the process of thinking of an idea or creating idea, and then, you know, getting made, you know, made to a movie. And so I got this script, it was written by this guy, Tom shanku. It's, it was unsolicited, you know, um, and, you know, that's the other thing, like, you know, companies don't take unsolicited material, because they're afraid they'll be sued if people steal their ideas, etc. And was like, well, they could sue me. I'm a social worker, you know, like, like, six weeks earlier, I was making $70,000 a year. So, you know, you're worse, but but that's just a joke. I wasn't actually even thinking about it in those terms. I simply didn't know. So I read this script. And it's really amazing. It's kind of a straightforward actioner. I mean, with the you know, and it strikes me as is like, a brilliantly and beautifully ironic idea. And funny and, and so I talked to Tom Jake was about it, he, you know, he was okay with DVD of incentives, who became my for longtime, longtime writing partner. And we just had kind of a vision for the movie that Tom didn't necessarily share. He wasn't against it. But he was just kind of like, you know, I wrote the movie I wrote, but if you guys want to revise it, go ahead. So we said, great, so we came out. So we, you know, started figuring out like how to our approach was kind of subvert all the expectations of the movie. So like, for instance, and Tom jank, which is version, there was the bully, he goes back and see, but in the bully version, there's like a big fight, right? And he fights the bully and wins. And we thought to ourselves, Well, you know, the bully isn't your enemy anymore. He's probably as an assassin could have real enemies. And so like, what is the subversion of expectation with the bully, and that is that he's not this scary, terrible person who tormented you in high school. And in this case, he's a sad drunk who writes poetry, right? So, you know, we you know, and then you know, the father who would be angry that he left his you know, that he left his daughter, John's character left his daughter, you know, standing in the doorway, and never having picked her up for prom, he would be angry, right? Well, no, because he's a corporate. He's a corrupt corporate raider of a certain kind. And so he has an affinity with with junkies eyes character, because they're both men of the world who are corrupted by that world and therefore share a bond. And so it was kind of all these little kind of tropes or touchstones that we looked at, and wanted to mess with. And, you know, we were fortunate enough. It was actually a movie. It was originally after we revised it and took it to market. It was first bought by John Kelly, who was a famous filmmaker, or studio boss, who had made, you know, Kubrick's movies. And he was kind of, they were, there was yet another version of the United Artists MGM, like being reconstituted at that time, right. So, so United Artists was becoming an active studio again. And John Kelly was running it, he was the one who originally bought the movie. And that was, you know, just amazing. Movie and saw its potential. And then ended up getting turned around, he ended up not being able to make it and was so gracious about giving it back to us. That's another thing. You know, just it's another piece of luck. Yeah, like you don't, you know, my career is just a series of luck of Lucky moments in which, you know, and maybe that's true of so many of us. But so John Kelly couldn't make the movie and he was really gracious about coming back to this, which is I didn't know not a thing. But my attitude was, oh, yeah, well, great. If you can make the movie, then. Yeah, we get to go make it somewhere else. It was only later that I found out that that's not actually a thing and his generosity was extraordinary. So he gave us the movie back I'm sure. I'm not sure. So Jen, Joe Roth, and Roger Birnbaum, who was two at a kind of mini, they had a huge producing company called caravan. And they ended up taking on the movie and Donna Roth Joe's wife, and soon and Susan Arnold were the producers. And so it was actually done it and Susan, who brought it to Roger and Joe and Roger and Joe agreed to make the move. And so that's how it happened. So it was it kind of series of kind of lucky things that fell All our way.

Alex Ferrari 25:01
After that moving through, if I remember correctly, it was a fairly decent hit and when he wasn't a blockbuster monster hit, but it was a decent hit enough enough that the town would, you know, like, Oh, these guys are doing some cool stuff.

Steve Pink 25:14
Yeah, I think I remember I could be wrong about this, I'd have to ask my colleagues, but I believe that it got really good long lead press. And so they gave it a slightly better release, I think are much better release, I think that it was going to be released, maybe. I mean, I didn't really know anything about these kinds of things. I just remember hearing that there was our release was pushed, and it was because of appalling ly pressed. So I'm not repeating that story. And then 25 years later, but so then it was like, then we knew that maybe we had something, you know, that was maybe good and that maybe people would go see. And so yeah, I think it did well, although it was really funny, because, you know, I think Anaconda came out

Alex Ferrari 25:51
97 so yeah.

Steve Pink 25:53
And, and I think we got crushed. And I remember.

Alex Ferrari 25:58
But it was JLo man

Steve Pink 25:59
Yeah, it was amazing. Yeah, I think I went and saw that. I'm sure I went saw that movie that weekend or the weekend after because it was in the theater and is this across by Anaconda. And I was like, Well, yeah, that movie is awesome.

Alex Ferrari 26:11
I'm thinking is this pre Con Air or post Con Air?

Steve Pink 26:15
Pre this was the first movie corresponding was kind of the first movie that we did together. And it was definitely the first movie that Johnny, John Cusack had a gun in his hand. And that was part of a thing that we discussed actually before. Like before, the the corresponding Grossman grant came along. In this might sound silly, but we did discuss things like well, that so at that time, there were a lot of John had a lot of opportunities to play an FBI agent or play a cop or whatever, basically, you know, all these ideas that would put a gun in his hand. And we just kept saying, we had this line where we were like, well, if you're gonna have a gun in your hand, you just have a cut in your hand, ironically. And we didn't exactly. This, we didn't exactly know what that meant, you know, but we were like, Yeah, because we don't necessarily want you to be a hero with a gun. Like, we were just kind of fundamentally against that we didn't know what that creatively did for him, you know, like, what is that? As an actor and as the kind of characters you play? Like, what how does that work? Exactly. And so, you know, to be an assassin, and a kind of antihero made absolute sense, right? Because then he could be well, he's perfect. Good question. He's very existence and his existence is killing people with gods. And so that was like, Oh, well, that makes perfect sense.

Alex Ferrari 27:33
Right, exactly. Now, after that, you did another movie, another classic 90s film high fidelity, where I mean, it's, you know, the cast and that is, I was looking at the trailer the other day, I was like, Jesus, man, you had everybody that movie was, I mean, it was just, it was it was insane. And then I realized who the director was. Yeah. And I'm like, how am I? How God's green earth did the guy who did Dangerous Liaisons end up doing I fidelity? So what was it like working with Steven fears with his legendary filmmaker? And what were some lessons that you picked up from him?

Steve Pink 28:12
Well, that's a really that's a great question. Well, we got even close because John had made a movie with him. Right. And then so so again, you know, this is going to become an unbearable podcast because it was just another lucky in our lives,

Alex Ferrari 28:28
Let's just let's just state this right now. You are. Did you buy a lottery ticket for the for the Powerball, please? Yes. Buy one. buy just one. You don't? You only need the one.

Steve Pink 28:36
Yeah, I bought the cinema lottery ticket, and it keeps paying off. Yeah, because Joe Roth after ghosts point blank. He became the chairman of Disney, and he had high fidelity under the touchstone banner, and he gave us the book. He said, Hey, you guys, what do you think of this book? And what do you think about it as a movie? And we were, it was extraordinary. And, you know, we wrote a script that he liked Joe, I mean, and he said, Go find a director, and Steven fierce, Johnny called Steven fairs. And Steven fair said that he would do it. So like, okay, is this terrible? We can end this podcast at any point. I mean, I have struggled quite a bit in my career. And so we you know, we have another seven hours, we can talk about the actual you know,

Alex Ferrari 29:23
I'm hitting the highlights here. I'm hitting the highlights if you want I can go into the bombs if you'd like Yeah.

Steve Pink 29:28
That didn't work. We can get into my struggles over the years. Like that would be I think, at least no call to balance out this podcast. But But, Joe case, but just to finish this high point, before it all went south. I. We, we so he we brought Steven for years, and then we went through a script process was with Steven, that was almost probably almost a year in in length, six to nine months and we rewrote the movie a bunch of times. And I learned you know And then watching him work was just extraordinary. He just learned so much, but I learned so many extraordinary things from him. You know, like, he would talk about and I was constantly interviewing him, you know, off the set. And because I just wanted to learn, and he would always endorse my questions, and, you know, I would ask him, you know, really pretentious Film School questions like, what his style, you know, as like, what his style like what like what you know, like you said Scorsese has a style, and Tarantino has a style and you know, and he's done so many styles, which is why I asked him because if you look at prick up, your ears are the hit, or Dangerous Liaisons or the queen or even high fidelity, pretty much every movie, he makes 30 Pretty Things has a different style, you know, he's kind of a master wizard of it. And his, you know, he thinks and, you know, this is just his opinion, and it's just a really interesting perspective, true or not true, or you can evaluate, its, you know, whether, whether it's true or not, or you're, you know what it means, but he says that there is no such thing as style in his mind, he's, like, a director, utilizes what he needs and makes it his disposal, what he needs to tell the story who's telling. So if he needs to fly the camera, you know, through a building, you know, to, you know, like, you know, if he needs to, you know, whatever, use very whatever style he's employing, you know, with the camera, whether it's to lay back and not have the camera be intentional, and you don't really notice the camera, or whether the camera is like this, you know, crazy flying creature, that is part of the storytelling. He's like, that is what the director needed to tell his story. Right? So that because of that, that then you say afterwards, well, the director made a film and it looks like this Edgar Wright or Martin Scorsese, or, or David Fincher. And you go, Well, you know, he this is he's a, you know, T employee, this style is a director to tell the story and Steven fairs would say no, he told T used what he told the story, the way he needed to tell the story to make it work. And the style comes after you look at it and say, Oh, well, that is the style he employed, but Steven careers would say, and maybe he would disagree with the thing that we do, maybe would have a different view this many years later. I haven't talked to Steven, many years. But then he said to me, that's how he views it. That's and so the the instructive thing to me about that was okay, well, then I don't you know, when I'm looking at shooting any given thing, I'm like, Well, how do I tell the story of this moment? Or how to how to tell the story of this? What is this? What is the story of this particular shot? What is the story? Am I telling? What story am I telling in this particular moment? I know that I have all kinds of stylistic choices available to me without getting caught up in saying like, Oh, well, I can employ this style, but not that style. Like what do I need to tell the story most effectively?

Alex Ferrari 32:52
Well, I mean, if you just have to look at someone like Kubrick, who was literally the master of changing genre. I mean, he literally made the movie of every genre. Yeah, I'm gonna make the comedy. I'm gonna make the war movie. I'm gonna make the horror movie, I'm like, and you just look at his style. And there's certain things that kind of there's things as far as flavors that you can kind of see throughout his projects. But the stuff that he employed and Dr. Strangelove is not what he did an Eyes Wide Shut. That's a completely different it's what he needed to do to tell those individual stories. So that's really interesting. That's an interesting I completely agree with Stephen on that one.

Steve Pink 33:29
Yeah, I visually you can see it in their work like you know, I love Jane Campion and when you know, the movie I just love but I also love sweetie and Angel and I table back in the day and the guide forgotten how concerned she is with the interior lives of her characters. You know, she'll stop everything all the time. Like the piano. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, the piano, it's like really just be in a, in a really urgent observational state, which I am just amazed by like that, because it's, it's observational, but it has this urgency, which I find kind of astounding. And that's a wholly different style, because it's not the camera isn't moving, you know, that it's not moving that much. But yeah, he achieves that and it's it's it's really cool.

Alex Ferrari 34:16
So then you you know, so after you've had some successes, you've been doing some stuff and then you get a chance to direct your first feature film with a with a fairly decent budget is a studio budget, you know, where you know, this is not 200 million, but you this is the first time you're on set running a big studio production. So what was it like in the movie, by the way is accepted which I just adored that movie. I thought it was so much fun to watch that film, when it came out. And again, stupid cast, like insane cast that you had back then. What was it like walking on the set the first day on your first studio project? Like, do you have are you waiting for security to take you off?

Steve Pink 34:59
Yeah, I mean, I I got this like, pain in my shoulder that was so so sharp that I had to like take a bath. Like after the shoot day like I was like, I had to figure out how to loosen up my trade. So stressed Oh, yeah, my shoulder was just keep killing. Yeah, I was working so hard to like have a successful day that

Alex Ferrari 35:22
Make your day just make your day in general

Steve Pink 35:24
Make my day do something interesting, you know, make it you know, like, create, you know, creating comedy. I always felt fairly comfortable with actors because I directed a lot of theater. So I was I was always pretty comfortable directing, and directing and rehearsing and blocking, right I can gin up at least something you know, Jennifer enough really interesting and funny stuff. And with great actors, it's not you know, it's it's something that I love. And it's something I feel that I'm I'm halfway decent at. So that part was the part that I understood it, but then capturing it with the with the camera, you know, was just a wholly different thing. Because I was then I had to learn very quickly, you know, how to get what I was just rehearsing in the camera in the same way, I just pictured it in real time, right, which are in like, with the naked eye like, okay, so it's really, really funny to me, but it's not a play. So how do I how do I keep everything that's really funny and spontaneous about that, that I just rehearsed? And how do I shoot it so that it's still feel spontaneous and funny when we shoot it in that that was a learning process that both universal and Tom Shadyac, the producer, were really, really patient with me, in terms of discovering it also was a little bit hard. I will say, after all these years that the movie really wanted to be an R rated movie, you know, it's a guy who starts his own college. Right? So the fact that we could never that there were no that there was no, you know, whatever.

Alex Ferrari 36:44
There was no American high moments, there was no American Pie moment, if

Steve Pink 36:47
There was no sex, no drugs, no outrageousness about, you know, milk in that order. And so I made it a little bit harder. So I was like, Well, how do I create a kind of call it edgy lunacy. Um, you know, given that story there, right. And we did, we found some things like, they let us get away with the fact that the kids since they're trying to whatever, they're gonna renovate a mental hospital, turn it into a college, and they found like, you know, the electroshock therapy machine, you know, so they're, like, chopping each other and drinking what look like, you know, alcoholic drinks, you know, things like that, that I kind of got away with, that seemed funny, because I didn't have anything else at my disposal. But, you know, the actors are also incredibly funny and warm. And that, of course, is what you know, really made it work, you know, most of the time, you know, blow up a car, like it's a totally absurd, it's totally, it's a grounded based film, because the film is has a grounded reality to it, but somehow the very end of the movie, you know, the character whose dream is to be, you know, believes he believes he has like telekinetic powers, you know, blows up in his mind, you know, he succeeds in his life goal at college. And the fact that they let us put that in the movie and keep it in the movie was you know, just funny and ridiculous.

Alex Ferrari 38:01
So, you know, as directors you know, we'll there's always that day on set, if not every day, but there's a one day that really everything is falling apart, whether you losing the sun, your camera, the camera truck crashed along the way, and you lost your camera. Actors won't come out of something, it whatever it is, what was that for you on this project on accepted? And how did you overcome that? That overwhelming thing, that feeling that you feel like the entire world is coming crashing down on you?

Steve Pink 38:31
Let's see what day was that? Every,

Alex Ferrari 38:34
every day? No, every day, like I said, it's every day, but there must have been one day that was really just like cheese. It's a one day that you remember that you were just like, You know what, this day? Oh?

Steve Pink 38:45
Well, there was a day. Yeah, there was a day where we were shooting the scene where the parents show up just as long as parents show up. And they have to kind of pay us to give them a tour. And we were rehearsing. And I realized I didn't have enough jokes, like there weren't there wasn't anything funny going on, per se. Like they kind of walked down the hall. And the dialogue was the dialogue. But I was like, oh, like, this doesn't seem like what? You know, and it was something we probably should have planned for. But I was like, Wait, shouldn't they be hiding something? Shouldn't they? Like, what's the dance that's happening around the parents that the parents are that's just that just ends up out of frame? Or that they don't see when they turn the corner? And like, what are the things they're trying to hide? And what are the things they're trying to present as the real school, and we have to kind of just so that was that panic, because I was looking at a whole day of shooting that was not going to be funny. And it was a really important scene in the movie. And so with the help of producers and the actors, and every department that was one of the first times I was like, Well, what do props have? What does the production designer what you know, what, what do we have in terms of the art department? Like what things can we generate? What things would be funny? I think it's a pretty funny sequence. Have we really, really planned it to, like I would today, it would be, you know, 10 times the size. But so then we managed to, like, you know, of course, because of Justin and him being so funny, and being really, really good at being the kind of like, you know, you know, the, the, you know, he was the one who was like, you know, had all the ball he was talking he got all about he kept the balls up in the air, right. So he's really, really good at playing that tension. And so we made a sequence out of it, and I think it worked out, okay, and it's a funny little sequence. But that was the first day I realized that there will be times when you arrive on set thinking everything's great, and nothing's going to work in terms of like, what you're about to shoot, and almost every day, yeah, and you have to figure out like, you know, and so I never So from that moment, I've never taken for granted that something you think that I tend to worry about the scenes that seemed that, that that I think are gonna go well, like the scenes, when you're planning when I'm planning a shoot the scenes that, you know, seem the big set pieces, and, you know, in the big shoots, whether they're big parties or big or tons that are big high jinks or be what stunts or whatever it is, those clips plan so much and you work on it so much that even though there's you know, whatever a nervousness around executing them well and you know, an attendant amount of worry goes into that I always am now I'm always keep an eye out for the ones that sneak up on you the one that you think, Oh, well, we're gonna shoot this in two hours. It's a really funny scene. Everybody gets it. We know what story were telling me. No, there's no what they're doing. This is gonna be no problem. We're going to be audited by before lunch, and then we'll be getting out the rest of the day. Those are the ones that that I that I worry most about? Or I don't know if I worry is the right word. Those are the ones that I I pay attention to cautious you're cautious about Yeah, I pay attention to them. I spend an extra I spent extra energy around making sure those seem to actually work because those are the ones that if they suddenly don't work surprise you and then you know, you don't want them.

Alex Ferrari 41:57
Now you also add a small producing gig with us small young actor named Tom Cruise. years ago as well. You were one of the producers on his film 90 Day with Cameron and it was camera if you haven't watched Cameron Diaz and M. That's now when you when you were a producer on that that's now you're at a whole other level, budget wise and things. Is there any big lessons you learned from producing a film like that?

Steve Pink 42:25
Well, this would be a no fun story. But I actually didn't work on the film. So what happened was there was an idea that I came up with, with Todd Garner, the producer, and a great friend of mine, Patrick O'Neill, who's a great writer wrote it and we sold it to revolution studios that Joe Roth was running and at that time I was attached to produce with Todd and we were going to make the movie and then it got turned around to Fox. And it had a very, you know, crazy journey, like so many movies due to getting made and this one ended extraordinarily with extraordinarily extraordinarily, with, you know, James Mangold and Tom Cruise, Kennedy is but by that point, even Joe Robin Garner weren't actively producing it, like they honed. You know, I think James Mangold has his producing partner. And then and so we didn't, we weren't active participants in the making of the film. But I was an active participant in having, you know, obviously, coming up with the idea, having it written, and then you know, kind of, you know, trying to get paid for years. So by that time, by the time that came around, it wasn't our film anymore. And yeah, I have extraordinary credits on that movie. Well, the Joe Ross gave me those credits, right, it was a movie that I had thought of that I pitched him that I hadn't had, that, you know, I have a presentation credit, it was going to be my company that produced it, and I was going to be the producer. It's just that it, you know, got away from me and all these different ways. And, you know, I'm, you know, it's, it's so it happened so often, you know, like, oh, I don't know what I would have contributed anyway, like, I would have liked to have been a part of it, but I'm not sure at that point that anyone was interested in my opinion. You know, like, I would have loved to contribute to the movie, but who would have listened to me frankly

Alex Ferrari 44:22
But its the Juggernaut at that point. It's literally just this giant machine that's moving forward. And you know, when you have someone like Tom Cruise and in James Mangold, back then he wasn't James mangled as of today, but he's still a very, very strong director, that that machine is going, it's hard to, it's hard to jump on.

Steve Pink 44:42
They certainly didn't need me. I mean, I shouldn't say this way creatively. I think they needed me. I mean, I've loved the movie, but there are certain like, there's there's some DNA in there that that was that inspired the idea to begin with. I wish they had preserved you know, like, but that's my that's me. Looking at it like that the movie stands on its own. And it's funny and great in its own way. So it doesn't necessarily need the things I think it needed. But of course, I have a desire, you know, like in my, you know, this happens to everyone who's made a film or watches a film get made you think well, oh, well, I wish it did contain these other things. Sure. And I had in mind, you know, but whether they actually needed those things or not, I don't know. You know, but um, but I thought I thought it was really fun. I thought Tom Cruise.

Alex Ferrari 45:29
It was a fun, but it was it was it was it was unlike his normal films.

Steve Pink 45:34
The whole idea was was hero as unreliable nearing zero as unreliable new reality, you know? So, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 45:46
Now, the one thing when I was when, when you came across my desk, to come on the show, the one question I knew it was going to ask you, and I've actually been dying to ask you this before we even knew that you were going to come on the show. Because when this came out into the world, I was like, how on God's green earth did this happen? Hot Tub Time Machine, sir. How did this gave birth into the world?

Steve Pink 46:15
Well, first have to ask Josh healed and you should have him on the show. He's the guy now he's definitely having on the show. He thought of the idea. I he might have even thought of the idea in a hot tub. I'm not sure. I can't bear.

Alex Ferrari 46:30
By the way, he's absolutely brilliant and what they're doing with Cobra Kai, I'm obsessed with Cobra Kai.

Steve Pink 46:36
It's amazing. And he wrote so he wrote the movie, he, he ended up with Luke Ryan, who's an executive at MGM. In Mary parent was running the studio at that time with with an executive named Caleb beuter. And they were just crazy enough to make it like

Alex Ferrari 46:53
I was about to say like, This is the weirdest pitch. It's like so weird. It's, it crosses over like yeah, good. Maybe can work.

Steve Pink 47:02
Yeah, I mean, they were you know, kale and Marian and Luke were game they're great. And they they understood the movie. They were like, this is totally ridiculous and funny and, and, you know, at its core, because there's also smart filmmakers. They understood that it was a midlife crisis movie, right? It's a midlife crisis movie. But instead of like going to a dude ranch, or going on a motorcycle, like tour, they really don't have time machine and have to relive their past right? So that, you know, the thematic ideas are the same. It's just that the, you know, the, the engine, or the journey through you know, that, that they take to explore those same themes is totally bonkers. You know, it's they go through a hot tub

Alex Ferrari 47:45
Instead of City Slickers. Instead of city slickers or old dogs you've got hot tub machine.

Steve Pink 47:49
Yeah. Which and so then it was like all separate then it was very self referential, right they were all we were all the characters, the filmmakers the audience, I think, I think everyone there was something about that movie where everyone, you know, everyone understands that they are self aware about the fact that it's totally bonkers. Like the notion of it itself is so ridiculous that everyone's invited to the party once they acknowledge that's the case and so when you're the filmmaker or you're the audience or even the characters themselves, you're all enjoying the same thing. Right? Right. No one's gonna take this seriously right I mean, it's all hot tub machine. They go back in time and a hot like what Yeah, it's like every just what you even the way you just said it is just makes the whole thing worthwhile. I think

Alex Ferrari 48:39
The thing that's brilliant about it is that it's so absurd that if you can't get past the title, you won't enjoy the movie. But if you can get past the title that you're in on the joke, then you're just out for the ride and that's that's exactly what that's so that's the brilliance of Hot Tub Time. As I say it it sounds

Steve Pink 49:03
Yeah, and I have to say it was really courageous of Mary and kale Yeah. cannot change the title you know like there we got a whole list of titles that wasn't consider it oh yeah, we got a whole list of titles to consider because we exactly what you said was exactly the case like when polled right they do all the market testing or whatever. And when you ask the question, would you ever see a movie called Hot Tub Time Machine? Well, I mean the answer is obviously no. Like you're not going to see a movie called Hot Tub Time Machine but then when they show them how to Time Machine along with the materials the trailer the tone, the fact that it was an ironic title in that sense that people like oh yeah, I will see that because that's ridiculous and funny and in your in on the joke but you're invited to the party called out to a time machine because precisely because it's so dumb. And so once people understood that, you know, then then every you know, then then it then it then it all But so then But then how do you get people to see it? Right? Because no one's going to admit that they're gonna go see a movie called Hot Tub Time Machine. So, you know, so hence they thought, well, maybe we should change the title. So we don't have that barrier to entry. And Mary, I remember, it's, I don't think it's my imagination. But I remember being in a meeting and I just remember her saying that, that she stood by the title that that was what was fun about it. And that, you know, she was going to take the risk to go up go to the market with that title and hope it worked. And I was like, that's super cool. She rolled the dice Yes, you roll the dice and he was just head of the studio and she was like, I'm, you know, I think that is the spirit of the movie. If you change the title, I'm not sure what you got, you know, then I think if there had been an alternative title that had been as compelling then maybe that would be different story, but there wasn't one and she wasn't willing to compromise. You know, for another title that maybe would have attracted more audiences on its face but but would have just hurt the whole enterprise and, and so yeah, so that's, it's, it's hard to be born.

Alex Ferrari 51:01
It's kind of like the weekend of Bernie's of its generation because that's another like we did keyless. I mean, even more ridiculous as the sequel if we can at Bernie's. Because at that point, you're like, how long has it been? Kind of thing.

Steve Pink 51:16
I don't know if you interviewed Clark, Duke. He, he made a really great film recently as the director and he, he actually has a brilliant Weekend at Bernie's pitch, which someday I hope gets made. Oh my god. I won't spoil it. When you can ask him about it. It's one of the most brilliant remake ideas I've ever heard for them

Alex Ferrari 51:35
To remake to go back and remake it?

Steve Pink 51:38
Do another Weekend at Bernie's. But his but his approach to it is so brilliant. It's makes it it's one of those ideas we like, Well, only if you did that, could you do it? Right?

Alex Ferrari 51:48
Like Cobra Kai

Steve Pink 51:49
Has the share sensibilities in terms of how it's approached, if you have to have clarity about it. And you go,

Alex Ferrari 51:55
Well, yeah, we'll definitely see if I can get them on the show. Because, you know, what I find funny about, you know, as we've been talking about all the projects that we you know, you've done a lot of comedy in your, in your, your filmography over the years. And I've worked with a lot of Stand Up comics, I've worked a lot of comedians and things like that. People don't realize how serious the creators of comedies take to work. You know, something like Hot Tub Time Machine, you can kind of just write off like, Oh, it's just a bunch of silly guys doing a bunch of silly stuff. But just as you're explaining it, there's a tone of seriousness behind No, this is a coming and not coming of age, but a midlife crisis film. And it's this and that. And, yes, it's insane. And we understand it's insane. But this is why we're doing so it's even when you're even when you couldn't, you know, go into the absurd, good comedies are sick or taken seriously on the back end behind the scenes. It's fascinating.

Steve Pink 52:49
Yeah, I mean, all the great comedies are really, you know, have have really kind of the emotional journeys of all the characters are central to the story, right, like in every single one like Tootsie bridesmaids, like there are, you know, obviously all Judd Apatow, ZZ work, like, the, you know, all the movies that I've done, like, I know, contrary Contrary to popular belief, comedy, filmmakers are super interested in the story of the characters, you know, the characters and so and the end what they're struggling with emotionally, we have to deal with it. It's just that, you know, the way we deal with it is through these kind of heightened ridiculous, you know, circumstances. So, yeah, we you're, you know, like, as you know, like, you were looking deep into my filmography. From Hogarth filmography, there are movies where I didn't take that into take that to heart in ways I should have in the movies. I was good. Like, there are movies that I've done that I think are far that it's like, okay, well, I'll just say like hot tub too, I think is far funnier, like pound for pound. It's actually a funnier movie, but it's not as good by virtue of the fact that that you're not isn't you don't have as much rooting interest in the characters. What they're going through emotionally isn't as you know, doesn't it doesn't have as much substance. And so after a while, you know, just jokes. You struggle. Yes, it's jokes. And so, I, you know, I have a deep love of that movie, and it's in his lunacy. But if you're just if you're going to evaluate in terms of like, the character journeys, they're not quite as good. And so like, to me that that, that, you know, that's central to every good movie, and comedy is no exception.

Alex Ferrari 54:27
You look at something like you know, 40 Year Old Virgin. I mean, there's a lot of character in there. Yeah, there's lunacy. And there's some fun stuff, and there's great situations. But you're on the journey with this guy. You're in the journey with him. If not, it just jokes get boring after a while. I mean, you could only do so many jokes and so much at a certain point.

Steve Pink 54:46
You can name every single one groundhog days like you learned not to be Yeah, he has to learn not to be a selfish person. Like we don't know why he's repeating the same day ever. And there's no magic device that we're told exists. It just happened. But we but slowly but surely we recognize that until he's not selfish, he's not he's gonna have to repeat every single day of his life and you know, Trading Places, obviously has really is a great, you know, friendship story about class and race.

Alex Ferrari 55:11
So many so many different layers of trading places are coming to America, or any of those. Any of those early Eddie Murphy movies,

Steve Pink 55:20
Wedding Crashers, you know, like, my favorite part of Wedding Crashers is when, you know, Vince was like, Come on, we'll do one more, you know, who cares? It'd be fun, that's what we do. We're Wedding Crashers, you know, we're young, and we're not that young. That was the whole movie for me, you know, I was like, oh, now I'm interested. Because yes, their time is the clock is ticking their, their, their, their lifestyle is, you know, is unsustainable. And so now I'm really in right, they're living a life that is unsustainable, and they have to change and they're either going to be they're going to be forced into a change. Or they're going to, you know, figure out how to make the change for themselves. And so like, that's the movie and that's why I just love it and think it's so brilliant. You know, the bridesmaids again, it was one of my favorites because it's you know, it's you could see the marketing material after hangover, you know, being similar to hangover, but when you see the movie, it's about a woman and a quarter life crisis, who's feels like she's about to lose her best friend to, you know, to, you know, she's about to, you know, her best friend has a new best friend. And what does it feel like to be left behind? Like, that's to me the movie. And so then, you know, hilarity ensues. So, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 56:36
Comedies is a serious business. From working on the myself. I understand. It's like, you know, timing, and that's what makes a great comedy, even something like airplane, which is absurd. It's one of my favorite comedies of all time, there's still a character you still care. I mean, and that's as absurd of a movie as you can pretty much get the original.

Steve Pink 56:59
Yeah. And, and there was a moment. I haven't seen that movie, obviously, in decades. But I think there is there is a moment where if you can be so absurd, that you're also engaged in something else. So then it doesn't have the same depth of character in the same way. But you're again, like, I guess, hot tub, you're invited to this level of absurdity, you're invited to this party, where things are so crazy and so absurd, that it has its own satirical, satirical tone, like you're like, oh, all life is absurd, right? My life is absurd. Like, my life could be airplane, you know, any second, right? Like, I could really be that any second. And so then you become the protagonist in a way to me when I watch those movies, I'm like, Oh, I'm the protagonist. Because all these you know, like, every single ridiculous thing is happening moment to moment, moment after moment after moment, is just reminding me of how absurd life is. And so I think that's a really a kind of comedy in its own right.

Alex Ferrari 57:53
Right. I mean, I picked the wrong day to stop sniffing glue. I mean, I picked the wrong day to start doing okay, like it was just so off jump about bridges, not Jeff Bridges, but Lloyd Bridges Lloyd Bridges are so brilliant. Now with all of this things we've been talking about, which has been a lot of comedies your newest film the wheel, hilarious. So tell me about the wheel. And how and why at this stage in your career. Did you want to tell this kind of story?

Steve Pink 58:26
Yeah, yeah, viewers be worn. There's not a laugh for 1000 miles.

Alex Ferrari 58:32
There's no hot tub time machines. There's no There's no ironic hitman.

Steve Pink 58:36
No, there's nothing of that there's only emotional distress. Right, I you know, it was the opportunity. You know, I always wanted you know, like the one always wants to explore what else is possible. You know what else I think I could do well. And this young producer Josh, Jason, who I work with on a commercial production work within a commercial production company brought me the script and I loved it. And the two actors that we found to play Albion Walker, Amber Mithuna and Taylor gray were extraordinary young people. And you know, Josh had had come up with financing which was you know, very you know, very it's a micro indie I mean, we spent nothing on that movie The the picture vehicles my stepfather's cheap all the furnishings in the Airbnb that the young couple stays in are from my house. You know, we shot the movie with I think there were 20 of us total of 25 of us total with with cast and we shot it in 18 days and and so I you know, to do a story, you know, where, you know, I can I can explore dramatic arcs of characters was just something I wanted to see if I could do and, and then also, you know, have the freedom to try in and create a visual world that was super small, but super resonant. And it was COVID We were one of the first COVID movies, we wrote, I think our COVID plan, like ended up in the white papers or whatever, because we were one of the first people, we were some of the first little crew to write it. And I could have never made that movie in any other time. You know, we went up to the summer camp, which was closed because of COVID. And we all quarantined, and then we, you know, we're just the sort of family up in the forest making this small and intimate little movie. And I was working with this young cinematographer Bella Gonzalez, who was extraordinary. And we just, you know, it was just a wholly different kind of experience, maybe one that I lost out on not having been a traditional film student, because I came out of theater, I didn't come out of film, so it felt very much like theater theater, or like doing a play, but I knew what to do with the camera. Now, after all these years, or at least I think I did. And so it was an extraordinary experience. And I was so super happy to make that movie.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:05
Now when when is the movie coming up?

Steve Pink 1:01:08
Movie just came out just this weekend. And so you can get in on all the platforms. It seems like it's getting good placement, you know, part of you part of you agreed to do this podcast, I'm sure it helps will help us a great deal. Oh, least all those all those listening, please go and see the movie

Alex Ferrari 1:01:29
It's in theaters it's in theaters or is going to?

Steve Pink 1:01:31
It's on streaming platforms. Okay. So Apple and Amazon and all the streaming platforms, you can go, you can go and watch it. Critics have been very nice to us. And that always feels good. To me, especially since it's obviously commented often that, you know, in the reviews that I'm a comedy director in like you had no idea that I could do that. You know, I don't know that. I knew I could do it either. I just wanted to try to do it. That's part of what we're supposed to be doing. As filmmakers. And so,

Alex Ferrari 1:02:03
But I think as filmmakers too, I mean, we, you know, things that got you know, got our juices flowing in our 20s is not what gets our juices flowing in our 40s. And you know, you want to kind of you know, you've been there done that and some things you want to like, you know what I want to kind of challenge myself, you know, I went off and made my I made a feature in like four days, and stole the entire movie at Sundance, while the while the festival was going on, about filmmakers trying to sell their movie at Sundance. I'm like, I just want to go do this for fun. And if it fails, it fails because it cost $3,000 There's no big deal.

Steve Pink 1:02:34
That's amazing. What's it called?

Alex Ferrari 1:02:36
It's called on the corner of ego and desire. And and we shot it because it's That's exactly it. And it's the most absurd. Anything you've ever heard filmmakers saying is in this movie, like the lunacy, the insanity, the delusion, I wanted to kind of make a love letter to two independent filmmakers of how crazy we are, and trying to get it so I kind of just threw it all together and shot it. And it was scary, um, to the point where my actors at the end, were like, do you have anything? I'm like, I don't know. I haven't had time to look at anything. I've been transferring stuff. But I just don't know, do you have a movie? Like, I think I have 77 minutes. Let's hope and we were lucky enough to fix 73 minutes the whole movie.

Steve Pink 1:03:19
But where can I see it?

Alex Ferrari 1:03:21
Yeah, you can see it on Amazon. It's on Amazon right now. It's on free TV, a self review on Amazon and you could rent it and all that stuff. I'll tell you about it after but, but I just use that as an example. It's kind of like you just want to go out there and see what happens. And you could do it at that budget range. Like you couldn't do that at a 40 or $50 million budget range. With big stars. It's a little bit more pressure. So I'm imagining doing at this indie level really micro budget, you get to go play, which must have been a lot a lot of fun.

Steve Pink 1:03:47
Yeah, it was a lot of fun. It was really freeing and it was cool. And you know, we had all the same problems, you know?

Alex Ferrari 1:03:54
Exactly. But you you have no money hose?

Steve Pink 1:03:58
Right! We had no money. And so yes, we just had to figure it out. Like what like, you know, like because it was COVID We had no background right so we had to I had to create frames for when there weren't people and things like that there were all there was a whole bunch of challenges but they all the challenges felt really familiar. You know, and I you know to have Amber and Taylor you know and Bethany and Nelson Lee the other two actors in the piece be so game you know, because it was so tiny and we're you know, trying to create a world where these these two couples clash and you know, are you know, transformed by their interactions in ways that transform their lives and do it in all in this very kind of, you know, intimate way was a great was great challenge and was great fun. I'd like to do more of it.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:49
Now, I'm gonna ask you a few questions as well my guess. What advice would you give a filmmaker or screenwriter trying to break into the business today?

Steve Pink 1:04:59
I I would say that, and this is true of me even despite my lucky entrance, you know, the thing that you love and inspired by the most or the is the thing that the thing that you should, that you know more about than anyone else, like, there's this thought that well, you know, you're not in the business, so you don't know anything, right. But what you, you know, you don't know anything, anything in quotes means all the things that, you know, are the complexities and nuances of, of being in the movie business. But what you do know is what your idea is, you have command of your idea, and you have command over what story you want to tell. And you have, and if you have the passion for it, and the relentless, you know, energy to fight to make it happen. That's, that's what your strength is like, you are as important a filmmaker, frankly, and in terms of being the author of your own story is anyone else's like so that's what you have to offer. You have to offer your creative sensibility and your perspective, right? I mean, I felt very, maybe over I'm sure, I was massively overconfident. But I felt very strongly about my, my perspective, you know, even gross point blank, which we had a great which we had, you know, this glide path to making, I still had a very specific point of view, I was like, you know, this is a world in which, you know, if you like, my kind of fundamental idea for that was like, for John is like, well, if you can be all that you could be in America, you become an assassin, like because then you're you can be morally ambiguous, right? You can be amoral, you make a ton of money, you're your own boss, like what does America churn out as people like? Well, they turn out assassins who end up really lonely and isolated, like, that's what but you know, I'm not saying that's my perspective, then my perspective was like, that is one version of what kind of human being comes out of American culture, right? And that very specific point of view. And so all that, and so then all the ridiculous hypocrisy is of that, and all the funny things that flow from that, like a really erotic character, and all those things, that was just something that I could I could express, you know, simply present to you today. And at that time, it was just a funny way to approach an antihero, right. So, you know, and I was convicted. So then when people said, Oh, well, you know, he can only killed is a good example, I think, you know, he can only kill good, you can only kill bad people. But that was like a rule that was trying to be imposed upon us. And we resisted it, because we're like, no, that's, like, only failing that people that's a American hero. Like, he is a murderer, he doesn't kill the bad people, he's he's a freelancer, he gets paid on people, he, he in fact, is deliberately taking a position that he doesn't care. What kind of person he's killing is it's his job to kill them. And so, you know, that was something that we felt strongly about, that we fought for constantly. And that helped shape but the tone of the movie was so. So I think that, you know, I would tell young filmmaker to have confidence that that thing that is, you know, waking you up every day and driving you to go and get made is the thing that you are the authority of and that you and that's what you'd have to offer. And that's a strength that's not you know, you know, you know, I think when you walk into rooms, you know, it's not you sure you're you're asking people to pay attention and you're asking people to, to look at your work and embrace you, but at the same time, you're the one who has something to offer something that we haven't seen before. And that's what keeps you know, our creative industry happening

Alex Ferrari 1:08:46
Fantastic answer.

Steve Pink 1:08:47
That would be my that would be my rant. Um, if they make it this far in the podcast, they'll get it maybe you want to put that as a side clip. Never get to this point in the podcasts.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:59
I've done three and a half the record is three and a half hours so you're still way you're good, you're good. Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Steve Pink 1:09:12
Lesson that took me longest to learn patience, you know, I am patients with myself, you know, patients, even with my ideas, patients with everything, you know, and I'm even try to be patient when I'm shooting, you know, like, I'll you know, the first frame of any particular day I'm shooting, you know, that in the very first setup of any given day, I have to remind myself to be patient, like it's not going to happen instantly, you know, be patient I have to see what happens in the frame. You know, we have to we have to create the thing that we are here to create, and it's not just going to happen and you can't be impatient, so I feel like even so you have to have patience on every level, whether it's shooting, whether it's a day shoot or hoping your movie gets financed or being patient that, you know, your that a good idea is going to come to you, you know, and you're not a complete failure who has no good ideas and should have never been in the movie business. Like you need so that I would say that's what I that I need to learn in life. And certainly in my career and I'm, I'm, I'm getting better at

Alex Ferrari 1:10:19
And three of your favorite films of all time.

Steve Pink 1:10:22
I mean, you know, that's the question. Everyone's like, what I mean, I'll just keep rattling off

Alex Ferrari 1:10:27
Three, just three that comes to mind right now at this moment.

Steve Pink 1:10:31
They Shoot Horses, Don't They? Sydney Pollack's first film. Herald in law Maude. Mal asked me and wow, I mean, cuz I only get three huh? Pulp Fiction.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:50
That's all very good choices, sir. Steve man, it's been a pleasure talking to you, brother. Congrats on all your success. And I wish you the best with your new film the wheel. And thank you for making us laugh over these over these years, man. I appreciate you man. Thanks again.

Steve Pink 1:11:04
Yeah, man. Thanks. My pleasure and Congratulations. This is a great podcast and I'm glad that you're doing it.

Top 20 Female Director Podcasts (Emmy® & Sundance Winners)

IFH always like to highlight a diverse group of filmmakers from all walks of life. We put together the top female filmmakers we have had the pleasure of speaking to on the show. These conversations are inspiring and full of knowledge bombs that anyone wanting to be a filmmaker could take something away from. Enjoy!

Click here to subscribe on Apple,  Spotify, & Youtube.

1. Marta Kaufman

Marta Kauffman is an Emmy- and Golden Globe-winning television writer, director, producer and showrunner behind the hit series Friends and Grace & Frankie. After graduating from Brandeis University, Kauffman got her big break alongside David Crane when their pilots Dream On (1990) and The Powers That Be (1992) were greenlit. The pair then launched Bright/Kauffman/Crane Productions with Kevin Bright and became the trio that created the iconic sitcom Friends.

2. Kyra Sedgwick

Kyra Sedgwick is an award-winning actress, producer and director. She is best known for her Emmy and Golden Globe-winning role as Deputy Chief Brenda Leigh Johnson on the TNT crime drama “The Closer” and most recently starred on the ABC comedy “Call Your Mother.” She recently directed the feature film SPACE ODDITY, which stars Kyle Allen and Alexandra Shipp.

Her film roles include THE EDGE OF SEVENTEEN, THE POSSESSION, THE GAME PLAN, SECONDHAND LIONS, WHAT’S COOKING, PHENOMENON, HEART AND SOULS, SOMETHING TO TALK ABOUT, BORN ON THE FOURTH OF JULY and SINGLES.

3. Eva Longoria

Eva Longoria has long established herself as one of the most sought after television directors in Hollywood. Named by Variety as one of their most anticipated directors of 2021, Longoria continues to hone her craft, seek new projects, and expand opportunities for others by paving the way for future women and minority producers, directors and industry leaders in Hollywood and beyond.

Her strong work ethic coupled with her passion for storytelling has led to a pivotal moment as she prepares for the release of her feature film directorial debut with Flamin’ Hot. She recently wrapped production for the highly anticipated Searchlight biopic about the story of Richard Montañez and the spicy Flamin’ Hot Cheetos snack for which she beat out multiple high profile film directors vying for the job.

Eva became well known worldwide thanks to Desperate Housewives, where she played a main character, Gabrielle Solis.

4. Katie Aselton

Today on the show we have Katie Aselton. She is an acclaimed actor and filmmaker based in Los Angeles. She may be best known for her starring role as Jenny in the FX comedy “The League.” Aselton can next be seen in Bill Burr’s comedy Old Dads. She was recently seen in The Unholy, opposite Jeffrey Dean Morgan, and appeared in Tiller Russell’s Silk Road, with Jason Clarke. Aselton was also seen in the second season of the hit Apple + series “The Morning Show.”

5. Zoe Lister-Jones

Our guest today is a triple threat. Actress, filmmaker, and writer, Zoe Lister-Jones, who made headways in 2017 with her all-female crew directorial debut, Band-Aid. The decision was inspired to foster new creative experiences amidst the staggering inequity on sets. A couple who can’t stop fighting embarks on a last-ditch effort to save their marriage: turning their fights into songs and starting a band.  The comedy-drama film, starring Zoe, Jesse Williams, and her New Girl co-star, Hannah Simone premiered at the 2017 Sundance Festival. 

Some of Zoe’s most known acting roles include some of your favorite sitcoms like New Girl, Whitney, or Life In Pieces. I have watched Life in Pieces with my family many times and it remains a favorite. Zoe’s love for performing and writing goes back to high school which set the foundation for a scholarship ride in NYU. Even though the film is what she’s most known for now, Zoe has a background in music and theater. In 2009 she co-wrote and produced, her first screenplay, Breaking Upwards with Daryl Wein on a $ 15,000 budget. The film explores a young New York couple who, battling codependency, strategizes their own breakup. 

6. Naomi McDougall Jones

Today on the show we have award-winning filmmaker, actress, author, speaker, women in film activist and force of nature Naomi McDougall Jones. Many of the IFH Tribe might remember Naomi from her first appearance on the show talking about her distribution adventures with her film Bite Me. You can listen to that episode here: Making Money Self Distributing Your Indie Film with Naomi McDougall Jones

Bite Me, is a subversive romantic comedy about a real-life vampire and the IRS agent who audits her. The film premiered at Cinequest, won Best Feature Film at VTXIFF, and then went on to the innovative, paradigm-shifting Joyful Vampire Tour of America in summer 2019, a 51-screening, 40-city, three-month, RV-fueled eventized tour that involved Joyful Vampire Balls, capes, a docu-series and a whole lot of joy. 

Naomi’s first book, The Wrong Kind of Women: Inside Our Revolution to Dismantle the Gods of Hollywood, is now available wherever books are sold in hardcover, audiobook, and e-book. It debuted as the #1 New Release on Amazon. It is a brutally honest look at the systemic exclusion of women in film—an industry with massive cultural influence—and how, in response, women are making space in cinema for their voices to be heard.

7. Sonja O’Hara

Sonja O’Hara is an Emmy-nominated queer writer, director and actor represented by WME and Management 360. She was chosen as one of the “10 Filmmakers To Watch” by Independent Magazine, selected by a jury from MovieMaker Magazine, the Sundance Institute and Austin Film Festival. (Past recipients include Barry Jenkins of MOONLIGHT.)

Sonja just directed two back to back features which are currently completing post-production: MID-CENTURY, a provocative thriller starring Stephan Lang (DON’T BREATHE) and two time Academy Award® nominee Bruce Dern, produced by Jeremy Walton (THE INVENTOR with Marion Cotillard), and ROOT LETTER, an adaptation of the popular Japanese PlayStation game, written by Tribeca Film Festival Narrative Prize winner David Ebeltoft and starring Danny Ramirez of THE FALCON AND THE WINTER SOLDIER.

8. Katie Cokinos

We are joined by indie film icon and Oscar® nominated writer/director Richard Linklater. Richard was one of the filmmakers who helped to launch the independent film movement that we know today with his classic 1991 indie film Slacker. As a bonus, we will not only dive into the extraordinary career of Richard Linklater but also that of collaborator and longtime friend writer/director Katie Cokinos, the filmmaker behind the film I Dream Too Much. 

9. Nora Fingscheidt

Nora Fingscheidt was born in 1983 in Germany and spent her youth partly in Argentina. From 2003 onward she participated in the development of the self-organized film school filmArche in Berlin. At the same time, she completed her training as an acting coach under Sigrid Andersson. Nora studied fiction directing at the Film Academy Baden-Württemberg.

10. Krystin Ver Linden

Today on the show we have writer and director Krystin Ver Linden. She has always steered the course of her career and her life with her love for film, and it shows through her work. She was recently chosen as one of Variety’s2022 “10 Directors to Watch,” a coveted honor. Ver Linden’s script Ride sold to Lionsgate with Joey Soloway attached to direct and was featured on the Black List. She went on to sell numerous scripts as well as the pitch Love in Vain, an unconventional biopic centering around blues music pioneer Robert Johnson. The pitch is set up at Paramount with Lorenzo di Bonaventura, Mike Menchel and multiple-Grammy-winning recording artist Lionel Richie producing.

11. Lissette Feliciano

Today on the show we have writerdirector and producer Lissette Feliciano. She is a Tribeca Film Institute AT&T Untold Stories grant recipient, was named as one of Shoot Magazine’s new directors to watch, and has served as an ambassador for The Wraps Power Women Summit.

Her production company Look at the Moon Pictures develops original content that shines a hero’s lens on underrepresented groups, joining the ranks of creators filling the market gap in storytelling for a new young multicultural audience.

Under Lissette’s leadership, Look at the Moon was among the first production companies to mandate 50% BIPOC representation across leadership positions on and off-camera – a metric they are proud to consistently achieve. An avid supporter of young women’s education, she sits on several committees for an all-girls high school serving low-income students in her hometown of the Mission District of San Francisco.

12. Chloe Okuno

Today on the show we have writer/director Chloe Okuno. Chloe is a graduate of UC Berkeley with a masters degree from the American Film Institute Conservatory. There she received the Franklin J. Shaffner Fellow Award, and directed the award-winning horror short film SLUT.  Her recent work includes writing a remake of “Audrey Rose” for Orion Pictures and writing and directing a segment of the anthology series V/H/S/94. She’s the director of this year’s Sundance feature film Watcher.

13. Carlson Young

Today on the show we have writer, director and actress Carlson Young. Carlson is the creator of the new film The Blazing World. Ever since Margaret (Carlson Young) was six years old, she has been haunted by the memory of watching her sister drown during an explosive fight between her parents. As a young woman, she slides further into her twisted inner life, ultimately finding herself on the brink of suicide. Through an epic journey down the smokiest and scariest corridors of her imagination, she tries to exorcise the demons pushing her closer and closer to the edge.

The Blazing World is Carlson Young’s debut feature; it is based on her short of the same name, which premiered at the 2018 Sundance Film Festival. Young brings to life in striking vibrancy an internality that is at once darkly beautiful and entirely terrifying.

14. Jen McGowan

Today on the show we have writer/director Jen McGowan on the show. We discuss the state of women directors in Indie FIlm, her new film Rust Creek and what it is really like to be a female director, from her perspective in today’s world.

Jen McGowan is a director based in Los Angeles. Her first feature KELLY & CAL (Juliette Lewis & Cybill Shepherd) premiered at SXSW where she won the Gamechanger Award. The film was released theatrically by IFC Films to rave reviews. McGowan got her start with award-winning short films, CONFESSIONS OF A LATE BLOOMER and TOUCH, both of which played at over a hundred festivals worldwide. TOUCH qualified for the Oscar when it won the Florida Film Festival.

15. Diane Bell

Diane Bell is a screenwriter and director. Made for less than $150k, her first feature film, OBSELIDIA, premiered in Dramatic Competition at Sundance and won two awards. The film went on to win further awards at festivals around the world, and to be nominated for two prestigious Independent Spirit Awards. Her second film, BLEEDING HEART, a drama starring Jessica Biel and Zosia Mamet, premiered at the Tribeca Film Festival and is widely available. She is currently in post on her third feature, OF DUST AND BONES.

She has written numerous commissioned and optioned scripts, including two with renowned director John McTiernan (the director of Die Hard and The Hunt for Red October). In addition to writing and directing films, Diane with her producing partner Chris Byrne is a founder of the Rebel Heart Film Workshop program, in which she teaches step by step how to make a standout indie film. She also teaches at Denver’s Lighthouse Writer’s Workshop. She is passionate about sharing her knowledge and honest experiences of filmmaking so that up and coming filmmakers can make better movies and create sustainable careers.

16. Megan Petersen & Hannah Black

Today on the show we have directors Megan Petersen & Hannah Black. They are the winners of the Seed and Spark/Duplass Brother Hometown Heros Contest. Here more about this remarkable contest.

Join us for an opportunity to have your feature film executive produced by Duplass Brothers Productions, Salem Street Entertainment, and UnLTD Productions and be eligible for a total of $50,000 in no-interest loans for your narrative or documentary feature. Whether you’re from a small town, the suburbs or a special corner of a major city, now is the time to bring your hometown-centered story to the screen.

Their film is called DROUGHT. Join Sam, her Autistic brother Carl, estranged sister Lillian & friend Lewis, as they try to navigate life in a small town. It’s 1993 and the south is in the worst drought in history but Carl is fascinated by weather. Hoping for a better life, they steal an ice-cream truck to become storm chasers.

We sit down and discuss all things indie film, what it was like to direct this film while having the guidance of indie film legends like Jay and Mark Duplass.

Enjoy my inspirational conversation with Megan Petersen & Hannah Black.

17. Clarissa Jacobson

So you made a short film, now WTF do you do? Today guest is filmmaker Clarissa Jacobson and she is the perfect person to guide you through the rough waters of getting your short film out to the world. Clarissa is the writerproducer and creator of the multi-award-winning comedy/horror short – Lunch Ladies – based on her feature. The film garnered forty-five awards and is distributed all over the world.

Her follow up short – A Very Important Film – also got distribution. Her optioned feature screenplayLand of Milk and Honey, is in development with Elizabeth Avellan and Gisberg Bermudez. In addition, Clarissa wrote a book – I Made a Short Film Now WTF Do I Do With It: A Guide to Film Festivals, Promotion, and Surviving the Ride.

18. Rebecca Eskreis

I am pleased to have on the show this today, the gracious Rebecca Eskreis.

Rebecca has had a thrilling path to her dreams of filmmaking. Now a directorwriterproducer, teacher, and film consultant whose projects have been recognized by huge platforms like SXSW, TIFF, SIFF, deadCenter, Savannah, Munich, Stockholm, and film Thessaloniki festivals, she’s surpassed her childhood dream.

Last year, Rebecca wrote, produced, and directed her latest film, What Breaks The Icea coming of age thriller about two 15-year-old girls, Sammy and Emily, who hark from different worlds but strike up a quick and deep friendship during summer break in 1998, set against the backdrop of a world consumed by the Monica Lewinsky scandal. But what should be the best summer of their lives takes an unexpected turn when they become accidental accomplices in a fatal crime.

What Breaks The Ice was her directorial debut project. For which she was awarded the Sandra Adair/Empowering a Billion Women Grant for promising female filmmakers from the Austin Film Society, and was selected for the Austin Film Society’s Artist Intensive, hosted annually by Richard Linklater. The project was also a finalist for the 2016 Mayor’s Office of New York/Women in Film/Producers Guild Financing Lab. The film will be released by Cinedigm in the fall of 2021.

19. Heather Turman

I am delighted to have as a guest on the show today, Filmmaker, comedian and podcaster, Heather Turman. She’s the creator and writer of the feature filmStuck, starring Joel McHale, Heather Matarazzo, and SNL’s Chris Redd. And the host of the Indie Women Podcast on Youtube.

Darby finds herself in trouble with the law and is sentenced to house arrest. Now she must serve 30 days in the home she used to share with her ex-boyfriend, which he now shares with his new fiancee.

Heather has appeared in films like La-la Land, or the 2019 TV series, The Room Actors: Where are they now. At age 18, Heather moved to Los Angeles to pursue her passion for entertainment. And she’s since built a successful career as a comedian, writer, and producer — one that has taken her touring to over 75 cities across the USA. She is an LA Westside Showdown two times top-finalist and has appeared on the FOX series Laughs and the Seed & Spark original Everything Is Fine! stand-up comedy special.

20. Lynn Novick

Since seeing one of her first documentaries, I was transfixed by her power of storytelling. Our guest is an Emmy and Peabody award-winning documentary filmmaker, Lynn Novick—a formidable and respected PBS documentary filmmaker with thirty-plus years of experience in the business.

Her archival mini and docu-series documentaries bring historically true events to the big screen alongside her filmmaking partner, Ken Burns. 

You’ve most likely seen some of her landmark documentary films. The likes of Vietnam (2017), TV Mini-Series documentary The Civil War (1990), College Behind Bars (2019), eighteen hours mini-series, Baseball (2010), and many more. All are available on PBS Documentaries Prime Video Channel.

Just this year, the pair premiered their latest co-produced and co-directed three parts documentary on PBD—recapitulating the life, loves, and labors of Ernest Hemingway. The series explores the painstaking process through which Hemingway created some of the most important works of fiction in American letters. 

Bonus: Judy Weston

Today guest is the legendary writer and educator Judith Weston. Her book Directing Actors: Creating Memorable Performances for Film & TelevisionandThe Film Director’s Intuition: Script Analysis and Rehearsal Techniquesis a must-read for any film director.

Judith consults one-on-one with directors and writer-directors of film and television as they prepare to bring their projects to life. Some of her students include Alejandro Iñárritu, director of The Revenant, Academy Award winner for Best Director, and Birdman, Academy Award winner for Best Picture and Best Director; Ava DuVernay, nominated for 16 Emmys and six Critics Choice Awards, and Selma, nominated for Best Picture Oscar; Steve McQueen, director of Best Picture Academy Award winner12 Years a SlaveTaika Waititi, writer-director of Jojo RabbitThor RagnarokHunt for the Wilderpeople and many more.

Literally thousands of film and television directors, screenwriters, writer-directors, and actors around the world have attended Judith’s workshops or consulted with her in preparation for their projects. Judith’s reputation and influence are international and well-established.

After 30 years of teaching workshops and classes, Judith, in 2015, closed her studio space and shifted her focus to one-on-one consultation for directors and writer-directors.

Her ground-breaking book Directing Actors was published in 1996. Judith’s second book, The Film Director’s Intuition, was published in 2003. Both books are written from the point of view of film directors. And directors all over the world have come to rely on them. But so many others have told me they have found them helpful—screenwriters, actors, professionals in film, television, photography, theater—and really anyone who wants to live creatively. She recently undertook a thorough revision and updating of her signature work, Directing Actors (FREE AUDIOBOOK VERSION), in order to make it available as an Audiobook. Judith herself is the narrator.

Enjoy my insightful conversation with Judith Weston.

IFH 607: From Sundance Hit The Puffy Chair to Mack & Rita with Katie Aselton

Today on the show we have Katie Aselton. She is an acclaimed actor and filmmaker based in Los Angeles. She may be best known for her starring role as Jenny in the FX comedy “The League.” Aselton can next be seen in Bill Burr’s comedy Old Dads. She was recently seen in The Unholy, opposite Jeffrey Dean Morgan, and appeared in Tiller Russell’s Silk Road, with Jason Clarke. Aselton was also seen in the second season of the hit Apple + series “The Morning Show.”

Aselton’s breakout acting role came in the indie darling The Puffy Chair, directed by Mark and Jay Duplass. The film was nominated for two Independent Spirit Awards. Aselton’s other feature credits include Book Club, Father Figures, She Dies Tomorrow, Synchronic and Bombshell. Her small-screen work includes “Legion,” “Animals,” “Togetherness,” “Curb Your Enthusiasm,” “Veep,” “The Office,” “Room 104” and “Casual.”

Aselton made her directorial debut with The Freebie, in which she also stars. The film premiered to much critical acclaim at the 2010 Sundance Film Festival and was released theatrically by Phase 4. She also directed and starred in the survivor thriller Black Rock, opposite Kate Bosworth and Lake Bell. The film premiered at the 2012 Sundance Film Festival and was released by LD Entertainment.

Katie’s new film is Mack & Rita starring the legendary Diane Keaton.

When 30-year-old self-proclaimed homebody Mack Martin (Elizabeth Lail) reluctantly joins a Palm Springs bachelorette trip for her best friend Carla (Taylour Paige), her inner 70-year-old is released — literally. The frustrated writer and influencer magically transforms into her future self: “Aunt Rita” (Oscar winner Diane Keaton). Freed from the constraints of other people’s expectations, Rita comes into her own, becoming an unlikely social media sensation and sparking a tentative romance with Mack’s adorable dog-sitter, Jack (Dustin Milligan). A sparkling comedy with a magical twist, Mack & Rita celebrates being true to yourself at any age.

Enjoy my conversation with Katie Aselton.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Katie Aselton 0:00
Really spent 10 years since black rocks sitting with that and thinking about the kind of director I want to be in the way, I want to leave a set and. And with Mack and Rita I lead with kindness and gratitude, and respect, and, and humility. And I think that there is nothing more powerful than someone saying, I don't know. Let's figure that out together.

Alex Ferrari 0:27
This episode is brought to you by the best selling book Rise of the Filmtrepreneur how to turn your independent film into a money making business. Learn more at filmbizbook.com I'd like to welcome to the show, Katie Aselton. How you doing Katie?

Katie Aselton 0:44
Hey, I'm doing really good. How are you doing?

Alex Ferrari 0:44
I'm doing great! Thank you so much for coming on the show. I've been watching you since the days of the Puffy Chair.

Katie Aselton 0:46
Ohh you just watched me get old right?

Alex Ferrari 0:56
I hate to tell you we all do it.

Katie Aselton 1:03
I just happen to do it on camera.

Alex Ferrari 1:05
I was I was gonna say that's so interesting. Like you like my kids. See some videos of me when I was a kid. Like when I was younger. And they've seen pictures of me younger, but they literally see their you know, yeah, you and Mark just grow old. Better, better, I would say yes. You know, we're just evolved. We're evolving. Exactly. So no, I've been and I'm a huge Morning Show fan. I love the morning show. Love the money show was such such a great show. So my first question to you, Katie is how and why in God's green earth did you want to get into this insanity that is called the film industry.

Katie Aselton 1:40
I know. I grew up in Maine on a on the coasts, like past the tourist parts of Maine, like real main. And it wasn't a town where people left to go to Hollywood. So it wasn't like I was following in the footsteps of anyone else I knew. I just got a wild hair, that this was what I was meant to do. And I had like, just big dreams that I kind of kept to myself for a lot of my early years. And finally, I couldn't keep them in anymore. I don't know. I'm like the kid who? And look, I think we all do this. But I was definitely the kid who in everything I watched, like put myself and I was I'm like a super empath. And so I would like things like really got me and I would really just throw myself into every story and, and my siblings were all much older than me. So I was essentially kind of an only child living in like a really rural area. So my sense of imagination was always very full. And yeah, I just I don't know, it just I don't know, that's what lit me up very early, but then had no opportunity for that. You know, like, if you look in my high school yearbook like I'm in the drama club. There were no productions.

Alex Ferrari 3:01
So what did the so what is the drama club? Do the has no productions just hanging around?

Katie Aselton 3:05
Yearbook picture every year I don't know. It was the weirdest thing. And that is that we're the drama program like they used to put on productions. I think they put her on productions. After I left. It was just my four year stint like nothing. Wow, you're getting Uruguay gets high school.

Alex Ferrari 3:27
Wow. So obviously you've set out to the university. You said, hey, I want to be an actress. Yeah, I want to get to the film industry. And then obviously Hollywood just called and said, Hey, what would you like to do? Oh, my baby, what do you need? Let me help you. How can I? How can I help you? Not sure what you got? So what was the stage from when you want the dream? To go to New York? Did you go to LA? Where did you go?

Katie Aselton 3:53
I went to Boston.

Alex Ferrari 3:56
Obviously the I think the third biggest action in the country.

Katie Aselton 4:02
My family, my parents, God bless them. We're like, you need to go to school in New England for at least two years. And I think their thought was, you know, I would fall in love with a program or a boy or the city or, or just forget that I kind of thought maybe I wanted to move to LA to be an actor. Um, but I didn't. I didn't and while I was in Boston, I went to be you. In my denial of my dreams and my, my sort of need to become to like be perceived as like a serious, like, contender in the world. I told my parents I wanted to go into journalism. I was like, that's the closest I think I can get there's a camera involved. I'm still like a personality. And so I applied and and, and got into Boston University, which has a fantastic journalism program that I absolutely hated that I read Howard Stern's book and I was like, This is gonna be great. Not for me, because I actually just wanted to be Holly Hunter, and actually a real journalist. So I took acting classes on the side and really, really loved it and, and, like, kept looking at my clock and was like, Alright guys, and we're at the end of the two years, and you said you promised and they, they stuck by their word and they did it. And at 19 I moved out, not knowing anyone in Los Angeles and I scoured the pages of backstage West, as early actors did as you do before the internet. And I found a play and I sent in my headshot, and I got a play that was in Sunland. Now, I don't know if your listeners are familiar with Southern California.

Alex Ferrari 5:58
Yes. It's just a bit. It's a bit out of LA. It's a bit just a slight

Katie Aselton 6:05
And north and there's nothing there. It's like industrial parks. I landed a play called at a place called Play us at the foothills. And

Alex Ferrari 6:19
That sounds like a place where that's where a horror movie starts. The play house of the foot that you said sounds like something where a horror movie would start?

Katie Aselton 6:26
No, I and if you saw it, it definitely looks like a place where we're moving. It should take place. They didn't even give me the full script. Like I just got my scenes, but I was like in it. I loved it. I was so excited. My college roommate came out to visit. And this is where the story gets. Gets a little sensational. But I'm promising you right now this is all true. Because she came out we were 19 we didn't have fake IDs. So we were going to go out to celebrate what were we going to do? We're going to go to Mel's diner on Sunset to celebrate get some strawberry shortcake. So we did and while we were there, I look up. We were sitting outside. I look in the windows and I was like oh my god. It said afterwards that Dracula do like, what is his name? I can't remember his name. And Rita's, like, my roommate was like James Woods. And I was like, yeah, it's James.

Alex Ferrari 7:25
Do you ever play track?

Katie Aselton 7:29
Our one of my. I think he did.

Alex Ferrari 7:34
We'll have to look it up. I don't I'm not sure if James was playing

Katie Aselton 7:37
In my head at 19. I was like, he played Dracula. I think he did. And now, I was like, I don't know. But he's looking at us. And I think he's gonna come over and talk to us. And she was like, now what does he want to he doesn't want to talk to us. And I was like, I don't know. But he's walking to the table right now. And he was like, Hey, are you an actor? And I was like, yeah, no, I'm trying to be. And he was like, Well, my name is Jimmy, my friend. Here's a manager and he thinks you have a good look. And through that manager, I ended up getting my first agent. And that is how my career was born.

Alex Ferrari 8:10
So you were you were discovered in Mel's diner? Is that is that?

Katie Aselton 8:16
Yeah, like it was 1949. Like I was Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 8:22
That's amazing. That's an amazing story.

Katie Aselton 8:27
Why an ultimate scumbag?

Alex Ferrari 8:31
Hey, welcome to Hollywood.

Katie Aselton 8:33
Listen, you just gotta find ways to just make those stories work for you.

Alex Ferrari 8:39
So then, Alright, so now you have an agent, you have a manager? And then how did you get involved with this very big budget film puppy chair? This is at least 100 million if I'm not mistaken.

Katie Aselton 8:50
Oh, yes, it was. I mean, all the financing for that movie came from Mark's parents.

Alex Ferrari 9:00
By the way, what was the what was the official budget of that film? Because there's a lot of myths about that film. Do you remember it's there?

Katie Aselton 9:05
Yeah, we can say I think it was like 20,000 or something like that. Right? Yeah, that's low. But it's so much more than the budget of my first film, the freebie which was 10,000.

Alex Ferrari 9:16
So you have one up on marketing.

Katie Aselton 9:20
But I, you know, so there, I spent a couple of years in LA, like, really, I like putting myself out there auditioning. Getting some crap roles that I really wasn't graded and didn't love but I knew I loved doing it. So it was at that point, a couple of years in that I was like, I'm actually going to go to theater school. I had started dating Mark already, Mark was in an indie rock band at the time,

Alex Ferrari 9:44
And really quickly for everyone listening because just in case they don't know. You're married to Mark Duplass, who is the director of puffy chair and many other independent films, brothers, yes. And half of the Duplass brothers, as well. Jay and mark. So yeah, just so everyone He knows who we are. Because we just keep saying mark like you and I know,

Katie Aselton 10:02
And everyone knows, I think everyone, anyone who's listening to your podcast is gonna like they know, but just in case. So we've been dating, he was an indie rock guy, not a filmmaker, not in movies at all. And while we were dating, he, he did it, they did their short movie, this is John. And then after that, we and while I was in school in New York, we did the short scrapple. And that went to Sundance, both of those went to Sundance. And so then the day after I finished my, my theater school program, we went into production on the puffy chair.

Alex Ferrari 10:44
And, and the rest, as they say, is history. So I have, so I have to ask you, because, you know, during that time, I mean, there was obviously that film movement that you know, which I know a lot of the filmmakers in that world don't like to use the word mumble core, but because it was coined by some, some journalists, but for lack of a better term, I'm sorry,

Katie Aselton 11:04
Growth journalist isn't.

Alex Ferrari 11:07
Exactly. So but. But during that time, there was a group of filmmakers doing this kind of style of filmmaking. And in looking back at those kinds of films, you know, when I, I mean, if you were I mean, puffy chair, and mark, and Jay and Lynn Shelton, and all that they were just such huge inspirations for me, for my first featured I didn't, I don't know, a few years, a few years ago. But the thing that was interesting about that, that kind of that movement of filmmaking, it was just very run and gone, it was shot with video cameras, I have to ask you, because you had been at least in productions at this point as an actress. So you're on the set of puffy chair? What do you think as an actress going, it's this kind of work? Like, there's no lighting? Is that kind of like raw? It's like, what did you think about that?

Katie Aselton 11:53
It was really interesting, because, you know, in there in the early years in our relationship, Mark would see me in LA with my friends who are all like, all actors who are out of work. And he's like, I don't understand why you guys just don't grab a camera and make something and I was like, okay, that's cute. Like, that's not how it's done. Okay, like, you need a studio, you need a trailer you need, you know, it was like, just an idea, because that is what we were told was always just how it was how it was done. And it's because it had to be that way. Back in the days when you're shooting film, right? But right around this time is where everything started to change with technology and things became so much more accessible and affordable. And I mean, God, you look back at some of those early mumblecore movies, and they look they're garbage. They look so

Alex Ferrari 12:49
So much so much. Joseph Jones Jones, just Weinsberg stuff. I look back on what how did that get released

Katie Aselton 12:54
I know, but at the time, like no one cared, because it was you were getting cameras in the hands of young artists. And so it was so exciting to hear and see young voices at work. And so it was, I mean, yes, there were definitely moments on puffy chair and Scrabble. And this is John where I was like, this is like, never gonna fly. But also there's something so incredibly freeing in like, first off, not kind of knowing the rules that you don't even know you're breaking. Right? So there's that whole idea of like, know the rules before you break them or not, or just go from the gut and make a piece of art that you're excited about with people you love. And by the way, for anyone looking to go do this, you absolutely should because even if it fails and doesn't go anywhere you learn so much. So as long as you're not, you know, bleeding money doing it you should absolutely be getting out there with your friends with a camera and going and making some fun stuff.

Alex Ferrari 14:01
And the technology today is so much more advanced than what was going on you reshot you shooting mini DV I mean I shot my first film on mini DV dv x 100 A if when it kicked out a little bit I got a sonic

Katie Aselton 14:14
I want to say that might have been what we did Pepe cheer on.

Alex Ferrari 14:17
Yeah, it was one that was the it was the first time you could get a film look out of a real

Katie Aselton 14:23
Very loose but at the time

Alex Ferrari 14:26
I look but at the time it was a 24 p camera and look gorgeous for the it's because all you had is like the 30 unit video cameras compared to so it's like it's beta canon or oh my god it looks like film.

Katie Aselton 14:40
So like with puffy chair no lights. We had one guy who did sound and like would occasionally hold a sheet up over like her slate. It was all we had we could do

Alex Ferrari 14:55
You just run a gun. So that was that was fun because I was wanting to ask actresses and actors who Were in those early movies like, I got, I mean, before it was a thing, and you were there at the beginning of it, you had to go like this. am I wasting my time? It's, um, am I just doing this because I love mark, like.

Katie Aselton 15:11
And I'll also say, like, you, you have those moments in there where you're like, Oh, it feels really good.

Alex Ferrari 15:18
It's wrong. It was wrong.

Katie Aselton 15:20
It was, there were some moments in the puffy chair that I still look back on. And like, you know, actors talk about like, it was in the flow, but like, you have this moment, and you're like, that was one of the more authentic moments I've ever had. As an actor,

Alex Ferrari 15:37
It's really interesting to go back and look at those those films because there is this kind of kinetic raw energy to them. And even though they're technically not sound at all, at all,

Katie Aselton 15:50
But their hearts are so pure and bright.

Alex Ferrari 15:54
And it completely goes through and it is pretty remarkable. And of course, you named it something so marketable. Like the puffy chair, which

Katie Aselton 16:04
When you tell what a movie is about, just by hearing the title, it's about a puffy chair was about.

Alex Ferrari 16:10
I remember during those years, I was I was hearing the rumbles of puffy chair, and I was like, hell is the off the chair. And I'm like, why is this? Oh, it's actually a puffy chair, like, and I remember thinking to myself before because this is, it wasn't pre internet, obviously. But it was internet like, like the early internet. So it wasn't like there was a lot of information out there about the movie. So I remember what like hearing about it. Like, I don't even there was no YouTube yet. 2004 2005 is when YouTube started. So the trailer wasn't out.

Katie Aselton 16:41
Now, it wasn't. I don't think we had a trailer until years later. Yeah, until like, Finally, eventually, someday ended up on the apple. And that's a very sweet person who just like cut it together for for fun.

Alex Ferrari 16:56
Now why? I mean, when did this film when the movie came out and went to Sundance? And were you surprised at the reaction? I mean, I mean, that's the question. I was like, did you know it was going to be hit? I knew you didn't know. But it's so overwhelming, because

Katie Aselton 17:10
I will say in the test screening. When we were testing puppy chair, I cried. Because I was like, this is awful. I also like never as an actor had never been privy to a test screening, right? So like, when moments fall flat when things like aren't playing well. And like, I never should have been in that room. Thank God, I was now that I'm making movies like I'm so happy. I know what it is. But my God, I was like, this is awful. I never should have done this and might end our relationship. This is a real a real stinker.

Alex Ferrari 17:48
By the way, did you have a conversation with him about this afterwards?

Katie Aselton 17:52
Yeah. And he was like, David, it's a test screening like every year asking people to critique the movie. They're like, they're, they're there to criticize it to make it better. So you gotta tear down to build back up again. And it was an early, early, early test screening at two boots pizza in the Lower East Side.

Alex Ferrari 18:09
And I can imagine, I'm assuming technically it was sound very technically sound

Katie Aselton 18:13
That sounded and looked amazing. But call it riding alone was fantastic. Again, what I will say is that experience to the next time I saw it, because then I said I would refuse to watch any more cuts of the movie until it was done. I've been next time I saw it was when it premiered at the library at Sundance, and it played to a full theater. And when that Death Cab for Cutie song comes on, and your, your The van is pulling through the tunnel. I just like had this moment that where everything just froze, and I was like, Oh, I think this might work. Like it just you can feel the energy in the room. But the interesting thing about that screening was that I had never seen puppy tears like a funny movie, because I was like pouring my heart into it. And it was about heartache, and you're watching this couple fall apart. And, and as at some point in the movie, I think it's in the hotel scene. Maybe I haven't seen this movie in 100 years. But I think it's in the in the hotel room where I'm like, give me I'm having a complete emotional breakdown. And I'm sobbing and I'm like, give me a number I just want to know, and like the whole audience laughs and I was like, Wait a second. I was like, Oh, it is funny because there's nothing else. As an audience member, you're so uncomfortable and you can relate so much and you connect. And it was in the moment. I was like, Oh, I get it. And I also get what I can do. And I get like that that particular type of humor of like really dissecting like human discomfort like that something clicked in me It was really amazing. And then like, everything changed after that we got I got signed by at the time it was William Morris, and on stage at the premiere and we moved right out to Los Angeles from there and we've been here ever since puffy chair premiered.

Alex Ferrari 20:17
So then from that point on your career kind of took off.

Katie Aselton 20:21
Oh, yeah, it's been it was so easy. After that, it was just everything happened.

Alex Ferrari 20:26
Everything is like it was just, they just did they, when they backed up the money

Katie Aselton 20:31
In every television show. And in every movie, it's like hard to figure out like when to take a break because I'm just always work.

Alex Ferrari 20:40
So when they pulled up the money truck, and they did it back up into the front yard.

Katie Aselton 20:45
Like all BP dump it in. Yeah, no, it's funny, I didn't work that way.

Alex Ferrari 20:52
It never does. It never does. Even for even even for Mark and Jay. They had to, they had to hustle.

Katie Aselton 20:59
Work at it and still bust your ass and find who you are as an artist and decide what kind of artists you want to be. And then I'm gonna know that's like all part of it.

Alex Ferrari 21:11
So when you made your first feature, the free V. Which when I when I was watching, I was like, Oh, this is obviously taking a cue from puffy chair, arguably, much more sound technically, I have to say, if I'm if I'm gonna, if I'm gonna call it out,

Katie Aselton 21:29
Mark will be the first one to tell you that I lean into cinema a little bit more than he does. He's like, I don't give a shit. I just give me like, give me a performance. That's all I care about. I literally don't care what's in the frame, it doesn't matter. Kind of want it to look pretty.

Alex Ferrari 21:44
So when I was watching them, like, definitely there's an inspiration from from that that core, the mumble core movement, but it's definitely a little bit more cinematic. But there's still there's watching scenes, there's like, oh, there's no lights here. Like this is all natural. This is all natural. It's and then you had DAX Dax Shepard in as your co star who's absolutely wonderful. And, and I mean, he was in 2010. It was pre parenthood. Yeah. So he was he was he wasn't Dax Shepard. Yeah, he was. No,

Katie Aselton 22:12
He was. He was without a paddle Dax Shepard. Oh, punked or pound Dax Shepard. He was there. Um, which is like, I really take great pride in being like this. Like the first step for him into like, him really showing the world who he is as an actor. And I truthfully, I really hope he gets back into more of that kind of acting. He's a beautiful actor.

Alex Ferrari 22:39
No, he's he's, he's excellent actor, even when you're in parenthood, he was, oh, my,

Katie Aselton 22:43
Well, that's the thing. I think you said he took freebie in an effort to like, get into natural acting. I was like, it's like training ground. Like he was just like, he was working his stuff out on me, which like, Thank God, thank God, he did, because he finished. You finish shooting. He finished shooting our movie, all of eight days that we shot that movie and went right up to San Francisco to go shoot parenthood.

Alex Ferrari 23:15
And he's done. And he's done. Okay, since then he's done. All right. He's done a rough himself. He's, he's gonna write for himself. No question about it. Now, the one thing I always love asking directors into something that's not talked about as much as it should be. Is the politics on set. That there's a lot of politics that young directors and especially female directors who have had on the show, they have a whole other set of things that they have to deal with, on set. Is there any advice you can give young directors both male and female coming about politics on set? And when I say politics of set? Yeah, there's obviously the politics of studio executives and investors and producers.

Katie Aselton 23:52
And I can't speak to that at all.

Alex Ferrari 23:54
But but with even crew people who push back on you don't believe in your vision, or are been doing this for 30 years, and they're like, Who's this kid? And that how do you deal with that? What advice do you have for kids? Or young, young young directors coming up?

Katie Aselton 24:10
Yeah, I mean, please, I want the 60 year old who's making their first movie to deal with the politics of the sunset. Because the truth of the matter is, is I've had two different experiences and look 3d was a unicorn all on its own like that was like felt like film camp. Like it was a very like Cassavetes esque, like just really warm environment where it was so collaborative, and I don't think we'll ever have anything like that again, where I felt fully supported from every single person who was in my home shooting that movie. It felt like such a safe space. My second film with Blackrock I definitely went in with a much heavier sense of imposter syndrome. And I think I I wrongly, so balanced that out with like, a strong persona of like, no one's gonna push me around and I didn't treat people I think the way I want to treat people moving through this world, like I, I very much regret the way I handled situations. And I think part of it came from insecurity and part of it came from stress and, and we were under so many, like, the physical elements of that movie were so hard, we were freezing cold and wet and bug bitten, and, you know, over budget, and all of those things, I think, led to me not being the leader that I really want it to be. And then with Mac and re, I went into that, having really spent 10 years since Blackrock sitting with that and thinking about the kind of director I want to be in the way, I want to leave a set. And, and with Mack and Rita, I lead with kindness and gratitude, and respect, and, and humility. And I think that there is nothing more powerful than someone saying, I don't know, let's figure that out together. I don't know, what do you think there is a reason why you hire the incredibly talented people around you. And that is to support you with their knowledge of their job, right. I don't know how to be a cinematographer. There's a reason why the cameras not in my hands, because I don't know how to do it. I don't know how to hang a light. I don't know what it takes for, you know, everything that goes into production design, I hire people who are wonderful at their jobs. And I think the biggest job for a director is to trust in those people. And to thank them for their work. And it is still a collaboration, it's still a conversation, you can absolutely weigh in on things. But I think that if you can end every day with thank you so much for everything you did today. I couldn't be doing this without you. I think that would be my biggest piece of advice.

Alex Ferrari 27:06
You know, what's so interesting is when when I watch Black Rock and washed, makin read up, it's you can you can feel the energy difference. I mean, they're two different kinds of story, but you can just feel, you know, because in Black Rock, you're one of the actresses, you can kind of sense that and I have to I have to ask when I was watching, I was like, Man, this must have been a super easy set. I mean, it should have just just flowed everything worked nicely. On Black Rock. There's no issues whatsoever, because you're running around on an island and I'm like, oh,

Katie Aselton 27:37
Exteriors on the poster name. I mean, it just my rental house is six hours away. Well, you know, when your water housing fails, like you're there, like, we were supposed to have cameras in the water with us didn't have any like, things like there was no shooting and jiving on that movie. Like it was

Alex Ferrari 28:01
Yeah. Opposite of freebie.

Katie Aselton 28:03
The complete opposite. And, and sitting in that headspace for two years, the you know, the time that it takes to make that movie. Really? It didn't a number on me.

Alex Ferrari 28:17
Yeah, cuz I mean, I mean, it was it was your Apocalypse Now, in many ways, because you were stuck out.

Katie Aselton 28:21
And I must admit, I was the one having 10 heart attacks.

Alex Ferrari 28:28
I mean, it must have been it must have been brutal. Because as I'm watching it, I'm like, This is not easy on a massive budget. Oh, my God was $100 million budget. You're still in the elements. Anytime you shooting in the elements, even a scene or two, shot most of that film in there, and you're running.

Katie Aselton 28:46
The only interior shot of that movie is in the car in the beginning when the two girls when Lake and Kate are in the car is the only time wow, that there is an interior shot.

Alex Ferrari 28:58
So when you were prepping that film, I have to ask you Did you Did it come up that like Hey guys, we're gonna be shooting outside? Can we control because you're at the whim of weather and the sun going in and out? Time all tides we probably never considered booking tides that go in and out. Ah, god, it was a it was

Katie Aselton 29:26
A matter that were like we bit off more than we could chew with this one. And it was I'm still so proud of what we made ultimately. But man, it was hard.

Alex Ferrari 29:35
So how do you how is the director? Do you keep morale going? And by the way, you have the added bonus of being an actress in the film that you're directing in this insanity. So I can imagine

Katie Aselton 29:47
I think I misstepped is I focused the most on morale of the cast. And not because we were also in two separate camps like the crew was all held up in One house, and the cast and the produce the Daelim Romanski. and I were in another house. And so

Alex Ferrari 30:08
I was like, so above the line below the line,

Katie Aselton 30:11
I need to keep the actors happy, not realizing that the crew was like ready to uni mutiny,

Alex Ferrari 30:22
They were going to they were going to do so that is if everyone listening, if you can at all help it definitely don't separate above the line and below the line on an on an independent film, try to bring them all together.

Katie Aselton 30:33
And in my head, I was like, this is it's all going to work if we can all just get through these 23 days, like, it's all gonna like, I promise you, it's all going to work. But like when you're getting $100 a day and getting the shit kicked data you and they bitten eaten alive by bugs. Like it's hard to remember that it's all I ultimately, like financially going to work. You know, it was hard. And I hope for your listeners. Yeah, I hope I can take with you.

Alex Ferrari 31:06
I mean, look, I've shot I've shot and in nature, and it's it sucks. It's like you just can't control. When that sun goes behind a cloud, we gotta wait, are we going to try to light it are we going to, because we don't have the we have the budget to actually set up a nice, you know, 10k up and turn it on and off the matches. It's it's just, it's just, it's, so when I was watching this, I'm like, I know she didn't have the biggest budget on this. This is our second movie. And she's running around on an island.

Katie Aselton 31:34
We make make it free.

Alex Ferrari 31:41
It was the pilot for Naked and Afraid that's exactly.

Katie Aselton 31:45
Every, every time we hit a thing, you just can actually crank it up a notch. And that's where we were it was. Wow. Looking back on it like, glad I had that experience. But holy, holy cow.

Alex Ferrari 31:58
Wow. Now, you've gone through a bunch of stuff in your career, and you've gone through your journeys, is there anything that you wish someone would have told you at the beginning of your career? If you can go back in time and talk to yourself? And go look, I know you want to be an actress? And that's all good, we're gonna do that. But keep this in mind.

Katie Aselton 32:17
Ah, the one thing that I would say is like, and I mean, it really speaks to your podcast is like never stop hustling. You gotta just like I am, I will forever be so upset at myself for the way i i operated post puffy chair. I was like, I just had a movie that was a hit in Sundance, like, I'm fine. I let Mark and Jay go to every film festival. And I was like, I'm gonna do pilot season, I missed every opportunity to meet filmmakers to get in those conversations. And, and that was such a loss. Like, I'm so proud of that. And it changed the narrative, right? And, and the narrative became like, you know, Mark put his girlfriend in the movie. And it's like, oh, no, I'm actually like, I'm an actor. I've been doing this longer than he's been doing it. But like, because I wasn't there. I wasn't a part of the narrative.

Alex Ferrari 33:17
You know, someone else wrote the narrative for you.

Katie Aselton 33:19
Someone else wrote the narrative. So that would be my piece of advice to my younger self is like, Don't let anyone else write the narrative, like, keep the pen in your hand at all times. Do you think that doesn't mean? Sorry to interrupt you mean to be utterly obnoxious, and to be that person who's constantly like trying to shove the door open, but it just means like, say yes to opportunities, and never think that you are at a point where you are too good to whatever that thing is, for me as an actor. It's like, I still put myself on tape for everything that I'm excited about. Like, I am not good for that. I don't care. I don't care. I'll do it. And for you know, as far as like putting back and read out the world, I want to say yes to every opportunity to talk to anyone because this is my moment now. And I don't know when I'm gonna get this moment again.

Alex Ferrari 34:14
And that's something that people people don't realize is like when you're directing, I take it when anytime I walk on set, I'm like, I'm so happy to be here. Unless you're Ridley Scott, and you're directing every single day of your entire life for the last 40 years. Generally, people don't get that opportunity. So when you get the opportunity, as artists, directors are the one artists that we rarely get to, to perform our art. Yeah,

Katie Aselton 34:37
Well, I'll say that to Eddie. Any, like actors feel the same way at least? A lot of times directors or creators have their own art, right. So at least then you have some semblance of control, in your in your path. We're as actors so often we are left to you know the mercy of others. are like making the correct decision like asking permission to do what we do. And so, you know, look, I think the more we can self generate and and, and at least just keep our idle hands busy but even, you know, directors, I think have a little bit of an easier time generating things for themselves but it is it's hard. It's deceptive, right? Like, the job the work is it's few and far between as as you move through the world.

Alex Ferrari 35:32
When when when you were saying that you didn't take advantage of all those conversations after puffy chair and you were just like, I'm gonna go do pilot season was that ego? Where you're just like, I have arrived. I don't need to do this

Katie Aselton 35:43
100% It was young, stupid ego, and not really understanding the business that Well, I am still the girl for main who like I wasn't raised in this like I didn't. And I didn't have anyone really guiding me to tell me. You This is like we were mark and Jay and I sort of came. And you know, my previous group of friends in Los Angeles, we're all living very different lives. And they didn't understand they didn't understand the Sundance of adult right. They were like, so crazy. And in their minds. They were also like she made it. Like, you know, Jeremy Sisto on a TV show doesn't understand, like, Katie Appleton edits in a Sundance movie, you know, it's like just two very different worlds. And so I had no one to look to to be like, how, what do you think I should do right now?

Alex Ferrari 36:34
There was no podcast that back then to tell you. I would have killed for this podcast 15 years ago. Could you imagine having all this information, having these kinds of really candid conversations? I mean, it would have been massive.

Katie Aselton 36:51
It's so awesome to have something that just demystifies something that is that we grew up, like putting on a pedestal right? But it felt so unattainable. It felt so like, you know, we grew up looking at directors like Spielberg and just being like, how does he do it? But like, what if he actually told us?

Alex Ferrari 37:11
I had the pleasure of talking to some of the and I've had the pleasure of talking to some of these kinds of gods. He's like, filmmaking gods. I'm trying to get Steve on the show. I thought I call him Steve, because you know, oh, but

Katie Aselton 37:23
I saw him one time I had a meeting at DreamWorks. He just walked in the door. And I was like, the only thing I could say is, he looks exactly like Steven Spielberg. I know. That's so weird. But like, he like he looks like he like had the best he had, like, just I was like, Whoa, no, you are absolutely stupid.

Alex Ferrari 37:45
It's a uniform. It's a Steven Spielberg uniform. Yeah. You know it. Can you imagine? And I've talked to so many people who've worked with Steven and and had businesses with him and stuff. How what's it like being someone like that, that in certain circles, I mean, he could walk around, he could probably he's so famous. And he's such a he's such a known person around the world. But he's not Brad Pitt. Like he can go off

Katie Aselton 38:08
He looks just like Steven Spielberg,

Alex Ferrari 38:09
Right. So the point is, like, every time he walks into a room, and there's a filmmaker in there, they all had the same reaction you did, like, how do you? And I've talked to people like, how does he deal with it? He's like, he's just really nice, man. He's just really nice and pleasant.

Katie Aselton 38:23
And I think there are people who are not quite so kind, but I think

Alex Ferrari 38:27
No, in this business, stop it.

Katie Aselton 38:30
I know it shocked up it.

Alex Ferrari 38:32
Next, you're gonna say there's egos in Hollywood.

Katie Aselton 38:34
I know. I'm not the only one it turns out.

Alex Ferrari 38:39
So I had the pleasure this morning to watch your new film, Mack and Rita and I absolutely adored it. It's so much fun. And I'm, you know, in the beginning of the movie, you guys shot in Palm Springs. And I just left LA, I moved to Austin, about a year ago. And right before I left, I went to Palm Springs for the first time. And that's where the devil lives. I don't know if you know that the devil actually has a home in Palm Springs. It was 119 when I went, I've never been in 119

Katie Aselton 39:09
You're not meant to go in. But there's times I don't quite know. You're thinking.

Alex Ferrari 39:14
I went to Joshua Tree and then we're like, Hey, we're close to Palm Springs. Let's just go check it out. And but there's human beings walking the streets and bursting into flames. So I felt like just yelling at them with the Tron with up like, don't you understand? Don't you understand what's happening? Me? Thank God they love them so much. So as soon as I was watching those scenes that you shot, I was just like, when did they shoot this? Because it had

Katie Aselton 39:36
It was March. It was hot, but not as hot as it

Alex Ferrari 39:43
So when we were in the 90s Hundreds, yeah,

Katie Aselton 39:46
it was probably it was probably like 90 and honestly like it was fine. We were okay. Okay, yeah, could have.

Alex Ferrari 39:51
Cuz I'm just like port I keep going. Alright, so tell me about the movie. Tell me what the movies about.

Katie Aselton 39:58
The movie is, is really ultimately about being your truest forming yourself at any age, right? This is a really hard movie to give like a one line synopsis too. So that's one line, right your

Alex Ferrari 40:14
Pitch, that's your pitch this

Katie Aselton 40:16
Is like be it is your true self at any age Or pitch.

Alex Ferrari 40:23
Please tell us the longer pitch.

Katie Aselton 40:24
The longer pitch longer pitch is it is a story about a 30 year old woman named Matt who finds herself living a very inauthentic life. She has friends who are all very hip trendy, and with it, yet she connects more to the older women in her life. She was raised by her grandmother and she really feels like she is a 70 year old woman trapped in the body of a 30 year old. So while on this wild bachelorette weekend in Palm Springs with her girlfriends, she is just dying to lay down and get away from it all. So she tucks herself into a side tent that has a regression pod in it and she doesn't care. That's a regression pod, you're going to lay down and in that pod has a bit of a mental breakdown, and really screams that she is a seven year old trapped in a 30 year olds body. And sure enough, she comes out Diane Keaton, and which is very,

Alex Ferrari 41:22
Very big, very big style. Tom Hanks big, beautiful.

Katie Aselton 41:27
But it was so fun to like then watch this character. Have a seven year old woman have to live the life of a 30 year old but the obligations of the 30 year old she's an influencer. She's a writer like she just still has to live that life and it turns out you know, our girl Mac really confused age with wisdom. And the truth is she didn't want to be old. She just wanted to be her. And how do we get back to ourselves?

Alex Ferrari 41:54
Oh, much better pitch than the first one I have to say. It's it is no but that it takes a minute to to bring it out because and you know, just that Pilates scenes alone was probably I mean that must have been so so you so you're working with this young upstart Dan keen? What is it like? Introducing what's it like introducing it into the world?

Katie Aselton 42:16
I'm gonna be excited for people to see what she can do.

Alex Ferrari 42:20
What's it like working with a living legend? I got it. Like it's a director. How do you approach giving her notes and directing a scene? How did you work with her?

Katie Aselton 42:28
I say like it truly someone at some point was like, Oh, you're directing Diane, like dream come true. And I was like, a dream that big. Like, look at what I'm doing. This is insane. Who dares to dream like I'm from a town of 300 people from a school that didn't have a drama program. Four years. Four years I was in a drama club with no production. So it is like it is a real like even like on the eve of like putting this movie out into the world. I am still pinching myself that that is my reality that I get to work every day with her and the truth of the matter is is that is she is just an absolute fucking delight like she is she is one of the reasons why she's so great in this movie is because she is hands down like the most authentic person you could ever possibly want to meet the Diane that we have known and falling in love with as audience members like for decades is exactly who she is. That is Diane, those quirks the idiosyncratic like wild, wackiness, the in the insecurities, the the heart, like the humor, all of that is wrapped up in, in Diane and it's all right there she is, like, vulnerable and real and fun and, and self effacing. And it's just like she's a true delight and working with her was I was really expecting are prepared anyways, I think a lot of actors, nevermind actors who are in their 70s and have been doing this for 40 years, or 50 years. I you expect them to be very set in their ways that they're going to come in, they're going to give the performance they're going to give and no one's going to tell them any different right? And Diane was not that at all. She was so open and like game and ready to play and always wanted to do more physical comedy and yeah, it was just, I am so grateful for what she brought every day.

Alex Ferrari 44:46
And I mean, just again, I'll go back to the Pilates scenes. I mean, it's absolutely brilliant what she did and that that you could just see the the mastery of timing and and comedy and how she's able to like she's a she's a masterful Whoa, competition really is

Katie Aselton 45:02
I know and he doesn't get to do it, which is like crazy to me. I feel like I feel like I haven't seen her do like be this physical in a movie since like baby cheese Baby, baby boom as like a reference throughout this movie because I think it is a very underappreciated movie. It's still 100% holds up. The story of Baby Boom is it's almost more relevant now than it was then post pandemic, and are we going to work from home? And like, do we work to live or live to work? And like, what was the who's the director of that Shire? Oh, who is it? I think it's Charles Shire, wasn't it?

Alex Ferrari 45:46
It was yes. I think yeah. Because I had I think I had him on the show. I didn't think I had him on the show. And I was asking him about this is Charles I think it was yes, yes. Yeah. He's Yeah, he's a master who's, ah,

Katie Aselton 45:58
What's really physically in that movie, like, they're her like, freak out, break down at the well, when the well runs dry. The way she kisses Sam Shepard, like, all of those were touchpoints for me, in making this movie, and we talked a lot about it. And, and I just loved it. I mean, I love all of Diane stuff. But I think what she did physically and baby boom was really like, where we were looking to sort of land with Mack and Rita.

Alex Ferrari 46:28
And what was it, you know, as a director we always come up with is that day that the whole world's coming down crashing around us? And I know that you could argue that everyday stuff. But there's always that one day that has

Katie Aselton 46:42
2022.

Alex Ferrari 46:43
Exactly, exactly. Was there a day that sticks out in your mind that the whole world was coming crashing down around you and you felt like oh my god, how am I gonna get through this? What was that? And how did you overcome it?

Katie Aselton 46:54
The day that we were shooting out at the beach, the big fire stuff? Yeah, a clear power Summit. Shooting and all of a sudden, I'm sorry, I think like the Army's landing nearby title. We were shooting at the beach. We had this big big fire stunt and we're getting going and it's a gorgeous day like so psyched, the weather's great. And all of a sudden, like as we're like gearing up for the fire stuff, like the wind starts to pick up. And la ended up having like, gale force winds that day. And you're gonna watch like there's hair blowing everywhere. We ended up having to CGI like most of the fire we could not get anything to frigging light it was the most infuriating finally dying was just like the second third fire I'm getting on stage I was like yes, you're gonna just go and we're gonna do it and we're gonna and thankfully I had Nicole Byer there who is like just a comedic genius and I could just rely on her to like be clutch like you just need in moments like that you need people to deliver and so we ended up like barely pulling out that fire thing we go to turn the cameras around so we can get her walking through the event. And the when I want to say was like 40 miles an hour Gail first picks up all of the tents Get Lifted like Wizard of Oz and fucking Malibu like they went so far. And we were just like we gotta call it like obviously we we cannot shoot

Alex Ferrari 48:36
We don't have a set anymore. God doesn't want you to shoot is basically

Katie Aselton 48:39
Not want us to finish this day. So he like go home and we're like, oh my god, what are we going to do? What are we going to do? So we're looking at the schedule working out with AD and the only day that we can like fit in a half day reshoot is the day that we are shooting Diane coming out of the pod Yeah, the first time I'm Dion's work hours are 12 hours portal portal, hair and makeup. All of that requires some time to locations Santa Monica to downtown oh man and a massive massive wardrobe change in between and a hair changed because she's has the longer hair there meant that I had 20 minutes to shoot day and coming out of the pot.

Alex Ferrari 49:39
Wow.

Katie Aselton 49:41
It was like only the most important

Alex Ferrari 49:43
Basically the most important shot

Katie Aselton 49:46
But then also the Marie Claire thing is important because then that's like production value, right? Like we need the feel of this big huge event. We need Diane like working the vendors we're you know, we're shooting her coming through and doing the whole thing. There was No compromise. You just had to do it. It was one of those things where I was like, oh my god, oh my god.

Alex Ferrari 50:07
And you know what, and I love these kinds of stories. That's why I always asked that question because I love to demystify for for young filmmakers coming up that they're like, Oh, you've got Diane Keaton, this is a big budget this is this and that everything runs smoothly. No, no.

Katie Aselton 50:23
Shit goes wrong at every level. Like I don't care how much money you have. I don't care what studios making your movie. I don't care if you're just making it with friends, every something is going to always go wrong, and you just have to be ready for it.

Alex Ferrari 50:38
Now, when is when is this film available?

Katie Aselton 50:40
August 12 in theaters. Yes, August 12 that's Friday, August 12, in theaters, and then we'll be PVOD in September and then on Hulu in December.

Alex Ferrari 50:53
So awesome. I can't wait for the world to see this film. Now I'm going to ask you a few questions. I ask all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Katie Aselton 51:04
Make stuff with your friends, get good

Alex Ferrari 51:07
Work and just hustle

Katie Aselton 51:10
Hustle make it.

Alex Ferrari 51:13
What is lesson? What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Katie Aselton 51:20
I think it is. You got to put that ego on the shelf and do the work.

Alex Ferrari 51:25
It is something that they don't talk about.

Katie Aselton 51:27
Like you got to bet is I think, you know, listen, I listen to Oprah, and Deepak and ego is is a daily struggle for everyone. But it is like the enemy. Like if your ego does you no favors.

Alex Ferrari 51:41
But you know what the funny thing is that in our business, it's even more prevalent, because not everybody has a group of people or an entire industry telling you you're the best. Yeah, awesome. It's difficult to handle that at any level.

Katie Aselton 51:55
Well, and I think that it gets confused. ego gets confused with confidence, right? Like you can have confidence in your skills and your abilities, but not be led by your ego.

Alex Ferrari 52:07
Right! Exactly. Like I'm too good for that. I remember when I first started directing, I went out as a commercial director, and I had been editing I was with top editor and in South Florida, I was making tons of cash. And then when as soon as I made my demo reel I just said, I'm no longer an editor. I'm just going to send my and then I got calls. Hey, can you work? No, I don't edit any more. I am now a director. Mind you wasn't directing.

Katie Aselton 52:30
Hard to call yourself the director when you're not actually doing it.

Alex Ferrari 52:33
Exactly. So it was just very automated. I always tell people don't worry, the universe has a way of just slapping this little nudge here and there.

Katie Aselton 52:42
I can knock in your head just a little bit.

Alex Ferrari 52:44
And last question three of your favorite films of all time. Hmm. Tootsie so brilliant. Ah, Big Lebowski. Not a brilliant one. And I will say baby, boom. Very nice. Very nice. I had one other question. I forgot to ask you. What did you learn from your biggest failure?

Katie Aselton 53:09
That that there's always another there's going to be a tomorrow you know, the world doesn't stop making movies The world doesn't stop making TV shows. It doesn't end on on the last project it's going to the business keeps going. And no one gives us much shit about you as you do

Alex Ferrari 53:37
Do you spent how many. How many hours of your life was wasted thinking about what other people thought of you and you can and as you've gotten older you didn't think a bit about me they have their own crap. Oh crap they're dealing with how egocentric are we to think like when we walk in the room? What are they thinking? I'm how I look.

Katie Aselton 53:56
No. Everyone cares. No one get no one cares. They're all worried about themselves. right and the wrong cut everyone else some grace. Everyone's doing their best.

Alex Ferrari 54:09
Yeah, exactly. There's no quit. We're all doing our best and we're all just trying to make it through this. This life's journey and in this business is is brutal.

Katie Aselton 54:18
Without some grace, cut everyone else some grace and trying and enjoy it as much as you can.

Alex Ferrari 54:25
Katie it has been an absolute pleasure and honor talking to you so much fun. Thank you so much for dropping your knowledge bombs on the tribe. I appreciate your very, very much and best of luck. I can't wait to see your next project. So thank you again.

Katie Aselton 54:37
Me too. Alright, I'll talk to you soon.

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Jambox.io – Royalty Free Music for Indie Films – 20% OFF (Coupon Code: HUSTLE20)
  2. Need Distribution for Your Film? – Check This Out!
  3. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  4. Audible – Get a Free Filmmaking or Screenwriting Audiobook

IFH 606: From Wedding Videos to Directing For Netflix & Paramount+ with Rel Schulman and Henry Joost

Henry Joost and Rel Schulman are a directing and writing team, producers and best friends. They founded the New York City production company Supermarché in 2007. Their most recent feature, SECRET HEADQUARTERS, premiers summer 2022 on Paramount+ and stars Owen Wilson, Michael Peña and Walker Scobell. The film is produced by Jerry Bruckheimer Films..

In 2020 Henry and Rel directed PROJECT POWER, a Netflix sci-fi action film starring Jamie Foxx and Joseph Gordon Levitt. The film debuted at #1 in over 90 countries. It held the #1 spot in the USA for over 2 weeks. It remains one of Netflix’s top ten original features of all time.

Their first feature documentary, CATFISH, premiered at the 2010 Sundance film festival where it received critical acclaim and went on to a nationwide release. Their second feature, PARANORMAL ACTIVITY 3, released by Paramount Pictures, opened to rave reviews and had the highest grossing horror opening weekend in history. Their second film in the franchise, PARANORMAL ACTIVITY 4 was released in October, 2012, and the two combined have grossed $350 million. Henry and Rel directed two films in 2016: NERVE, a summer hit released by Lionsgate, starring Emma Roberts and Dave Franco; and VIRAL, a prescient low budget horror movie with Blumhouse, starring Sofia Black-D’Elia. They also executive produced the 2016 Sundance Film Festival hit WHITE GIRL, directed by Elizabeth Wood, which was acquired by Netflix for worldwide distribution.

Henry and Rel are executive producers on the long running series CATFISH: The TV Show, now in it’s 8th season, and have directed dozens of commercials and short films for companies like Nike, Google, Facebook, and Vogue. They directed the short film A BRIEF HISTORY OF JOHN BALDESSARI, commissioned by LACMA, narrated by Tom Waits, which has been screened at over 100 film festivals worldwide. Henry and Rel’s Google commercial DEAR SOPHIE was named Time magazine’s Best Commercial of the Year in 2011. In 2020 they fulfilled a lifelong dream of directing the season opening short film for the NEW YORK KNICKS.

Henry, Rel, and their in-house producer Orlee-Rose Strauss maintain an active development slate. Features in the works include: an adaptation of Capcom’s MEGA MAN which they wrote and are directing for Netflix; an adaptation of Edward Abbey’s novel THE MONKEY WRENCH GANG, produced by Ed Pressman, which they wrote and are directing. They are also signed on to direct a bio-pic about KEITH ADAMS, the deaf football coach who made history leading an all-deaf high school football team to an undefeated season against all-hearing teams. The film is being written by Josh Feldman, and produced by Freddy Wexler, DJ Kurs and Eryn Brown.

Enjoy my conversation with Henry Joost and Rel Schulman.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Rel Schulman 0:00
But I'll say to the guy, Hey, buddy, I believe in you. You got this and then just walk away. And Henry will style over and be like what he means to say is.

Alex Ferrari 0:14
You know, it's always fascinating to me that even on some on big budget films like this shit happens.

This episode is brought to you by the best selling book Rise of the Filmtrepreneur how to turn your independent film into a money making business. Learn more at filmbizbook.com. I'd like to welcome to the show Rel Schulman and Henry Joost. How're you guys doing?

Henry Joost 0:40
Good, how are you?

Alex Ferrari 0:40
Good, man, thank you so much for coming on the show. Guys. I've been I've been watching your stuff for years, man, you know, back in the khakis days back to the catfish days. So you know, very first question I asked for you guys. Why in God's green earth? Did you want to get into this insanity that has the film industry?

Rel Schulman 0:56
Oh, God, I don't think we're any good at anything else.

Henry Joost 0:59
At this point, I don't Yeah, I don't know how to do anything else. That's a huge mistake. And now I can't back out.

Alex Ferrari 1:07
We should have gotten a real job somewhere else doing something? No. So how did you guys get in?

Henry Joost 1:11
It was a lot. It was a complex road. But I think we I think it started out as being just kids who loved movies growing up. And then at some point, there was the realization that like, there were people who actually do that as a job. They make movies, which totally blew my mind. At some point. You know, when I was like, I think I was 16 or something. And I met somebody who was a video producer. I was like, wow, so so they're real people who work in this business. And like that's something you could pursue. I personally became an editor. And, and that's when Raul and I met in high school. And we were both I was kind of like, interested in experimenting with video editing and shooting stuff in high school, and making films and little short films and stuff with my friends. And Rel and I met in our we met in high school, but we really connected in our early 20s. We both had a job at this public access TV station called plum TV. And that was our summer job between you know, like when we were in college, and we were it was this kind of wild place where we were, as you know, 21 year olds given the responsibility to like, they were like, you can make your own show. So I made a show about Hamptons nightlife. And relegated, like a kind of a restaurant conversation show. And oh, and also like a plastic surgery show, right?

Rel Schulman 2:47
Yep. The beauty makeover show Hamptons stuff, which was just crazy. Nice.

Alex Ferrari 2:52
How have you how the academy didn't recognize your work back then.

Henry Joost 2:57
And we were they were like, they're like you guys. You know, you can write direct shoot, edit everything your own half hour show. And but you have to turn it in every week. So we were like, we have this crazy experience, which was made to making a half hour show in one week all by herself. And we kind of commiserated over that and you know, started having our ideas of our own, like, I hope this is not our future to make, you know, plastic surgery shows and stuff like that, like like, what else can can we do? So we started making documentaries and kind of branching out on our own and then eventually formed a production company, which we still have super marchais, which we started in 2007.

Alex Ferrari 3:45
Very cool, guys. I always wanted to ask, you know, directing teams. I've had a few directing teams on the show, and I love asking this question. How the hell do you do it, man? Because I've been directing for 20 odd years, and I can't understand how, like, what like, do you want somebody handle the camera at someone handle the actors? Or, you know, do you guys just ask all the time? Like, what do you think? What do you think? Like how do you actually work together as a directing team?

Rel Schulman 4:11
You know, like, think about if you were on on vacation with your wife and kids and you have like 50 to 100 kids

Alex Ferrari 4:23
Sorry, my my estrus puckered there for a second.

Rel Schulman 4:28
You got to figure out how to get out of the airport, get onto a train and check into a complicated hotel. And there's something wrong with your reservation. How do you split that with your with your wife, you kind of just figure it out. You're both have extraordinary, you know, total responsibility and you got to work together as a team. And you've been an event together for a while.

Alex Ferrari 4:51
And you guys know each other so well at this point, then I'm assuming it's just secondhand. Yeah, you just know oh, this shots this or that shots that are at You both have and you both have similar sensibilities at this point.

Rel Schulman 5:03
Yeah, yeah. So we have to it, otherwise it wouldn't work.

Alex Ferrari 5:07
So then at what point, I have to believe, just like my wife and I, there's disagreements. So how do you guys handle those disagreements or when you're creatively not exactly on the same page?

Henry Joost 5:17
We try to disagree only in private.

Alex Ferrari 5:20
Smart, didn't never, never, never

Never in front of the kids

Rel Schulman 5:27
Because it causes lifelong trauma.

Alex Ferrari 5:31
You know why so funny. But that's what we, my wife, and I do, we're like, we will back each other in front of the kids. But the second the door closes to the bedroom. I can't believe. I know, let's have a conversation. But that's just like an unspoken rule. You never do it in front of the kids. So that's similar to you guys. Yeah.

Henry Joost 5:48
Oh, yeah. We were in production meetings. And like one of us will say, like, all say, I want a million balloons and this scene, and somebody is like, well, that's what you got. Like, that's what both of you guys want rails like, yep. We definitely want a million balloons. The door everybody leaves in the door closes. What the fuck were you talking? We didn't talk about that. We never agreed million have a million isn't a million excessive.

Alex Ferrari 6:16
Yeah, except that you go back the next day. Like, you know, we, we talked about it, you know, 10,000 balloons is fine.

Henry Joost 6:21
Yeah, it's 2 million, please. Yeah.

Rel Schulman 6:25
You can you can appear as extremely collaborative and reasonable. If we come back the next day and say, You know what, we were looking at the whole budget. As filmmakers, we could achieve what Henry was so to want with less balloons. in beta, better craft service.

Alex Ferrari 6:47
So, obviously, you made this, you know, one of those seminal movies of the early 2000s, which is catfish. I remember when catfish came out the documentary and it was a freaky ass, just freaky film. And it was wonderful. And you got into Sundance, what was that whole experience of making that film and then getting it to Sundance, which I'm assuming that was, was that the first time you were going to Sundance

Rel Schulman 7:10
First Feature Film.

Alex Ferrari 7:12
Right. So then, so you out of the gate. You get into Sundance with this documentary? That's, you know, sets the world on fire a bit. What is what was that whole experience? Like? It was, it was wild.

Rel Schulman 7:26
Yeah, it was an awesome roller coaster.

Henry Joost 7:29
We got a little spoiled, I think because we never, you know, we both of us grew up so disconnected from the film industry. And like, we didn't really know anybody who worked in the film industry and didn't end into Sundance and didn't. I don't even know if we'd ever been to a film festival, like, you know, and

Rel Schulman 7:48
I've been to the East Village Film Festival,

Alex Ferrari 7:51
Which is just like Sundance but different.

Henry Joost 7:53
Yeah. It doesn't smell

Rel Schulman 7:58
There was.

Henry Joost 7:59
So we kind of didn't know what to expect. And we had these great, we had two great guides in the experience, which were Andrew jerky and Mark Summerlin, who were the producers of capturing the Friedman's. And they were they were they became producers on catfish. After we've made it because we were just like, what do we do with this? We don't We made this movie. And we have this like, pretty good rough cut that we showed her when we showed our friends. They're like, I can't believe that. Is this real? Like, this is insane. What what do we do now? And they were like, okay, so you go to Sundance and here's how it works. And you know, and you get a really warm, really warm jacket.

Alex Ferrari 8:39
Oh, yes, we can have a whole episode on how to prepare for Sunday's long underwear. long underwear written stay hydrated real socks, thermal socks, not Yep, not tube socks,

Rel Schulman 8:51
No, not tube socks and waterproof boots. There's a lot of sloshing around.

Alex Ferrari 8:57
And they never tell you about the altitude do they? Like you walk 15 feet and you're like

Rel Schulman 9:03
You're getting good reviews, it's a little easier to deal with. It's a little it's a slight bit easier to deal with. So there was so that, I mean, I'll never forget that I really feel like that was the moment our careers began in earnest as future filmmakers. And it was but less than five minutes after the first screening, which is a 10am screening at the library. And, and, and that's Sundance. And a woman comes up to us, Rowena Aguilas, who's an agent at CAA. And she was the agent of Andrew jerky, and Mark swirling our producers. And so there was some familiarity and some, I guess, trust because otherwise we had no idea what that world looked like or who to talk to or who to trust or what agency or anything. And there was just someone we are who knew someone we knew and we said or will sign with you. And that day we had agent that's and that's the, and we've been there ever since. And they've helped us like forge a path as working movie directors, which is not something we even really planned for, or had or had totally clearly seen for ourselves.

Alex Ferrari 10:15
It's fascinating that I mean, you guys kind of like, I mean, you obviously had been directing and working hard and hustling to get to where you were. But when you got to catfish, he was kind of like, Alright, what do we do with this? And you just kind of like felt like, oh, you go to Sundance? Sure. Submit to Sundance, get into Sundance, get an agent at CAA, it sounds like yeah, this is just what you do. It's extremely difficult. Everything that you've just read the right place at the right time with the right product.

Rel Schulman 10:41
Alex, the 10 years leading up to that, and it listen, it hasn't been easy, since the hustle never stops, right that 10 years leading up to that where I mean two, three, all not multiple, all nighters every week, to make as many videos and to get better and better at our craft as possible. And that was, that was the public access TV shows like Henry was talking about, but it was like an extraordinary amount of wedding videos, Bar Mitzvah videos, industrial films, anything, anything in New York wanted on film, and desire to finish product, we said yes. And partially it was to make money. I think neither of us wanted another job. We wanted this to be the job. And the only way for that to work and to cover rent every month, which we were doing buy, like a matter of hours at the end of every month was just to make and make and make. And we ended up buying our own equipment. We ended up we had a storage locker with a couple cameras, a couple computers, sound equipment, lighting equipment, and that equipment is what allowed us to shoot and pay for catfish on our own.

Alex Ferrari 11:51
And they There you go. I mean, it's it's you're an overnight a 10 year overnight success basically.

Henry Joost 11:57
Right! Yeah, we just Yeah, we had done the legwork to be we were prepared for the for that incredible opportunity to fall in our laps that the opportunity being just the story of catfish unfolding in front of us. Like, we knew what we knew enough of what we were doing to capture the story. You know, and then we took a really long time trying to figure it out in the edit. And we had our friend Zack store at Ponte a who had been working on all of our other weird stuff that we were doing. Like, we directed the recruitment video for Harvard Business School, like that was like, it was like that, and like weddings and pharmaceutical videos and like the strangest stuff like just anything. Anything is just

Alex Ferrari 12:44
Yeah, and I said yes to everything to when I was to everything. Anything, anything that came along as I was an editor and the director, anything that showed up I genuine. I mean, I'd made I did promos for Matlock. That's like six months working as a freelancer so great. It was I was getting paid well, but my soul was dying with every edit.

Rel Schulman 13:08
But to me the toughest, toughest clients we ever had were. But also the most loyal were the Jewish mothers for the bar mitzvah videos, Bachmann's videos, and that prepared us for the studio executives. Nothing else. It may it may be dealing with studio heads. Piece of cake.

Alex Ferrari 13:29
Exactly. You don't want to mess with a Jewish mother on on the bar mitzvah.

Henry Joost 13:35
Bride relat Ral was once accused of ruining a bride's life.

Rel Schulman 13:39
Yeah. Oh, gotcha. Yeah, I don't know what you could imagine when he says that. But all it really was was I didn't get enough footage of her coming down the aisle, which was a mistake my camera in the wrong direction. There was two of us that were both shooting the groom each other like Oh, shit, one of us needs to point that way. And we tried to fake it in the edit by slowing it down, cutting away and then coming back. We use a moment. And they're like this out. She was like, Is that all you have? Because that's not enough. That was a long aisle.

Alex Ferrari 14:14
I got I got one better for you. I did have I did a wedding as a favor because I never did wedding videos. Because I just never got into that. But I did a wedding as a favor. And I shot like the I don't know the bride party or something like the dinner or whatever, that pre dinner thing. And I was shooting I was just got a new, a new photo camera. It was all film. And I was like, Oh yeah, I'm gonna use this really high speed film. I'm not going to use flash. Oh, no, no, I was. Oh, so I was the only thing shooting it. Like you guys are both just like oh, it's dude. And it was a friend of mine. And and I was the best man at that wedding. So the the the bride She was trying to kill me. She's like you've ruined have no photos of that day.

Rel Schulman 15:04
That was like we didn't know until a week, at least a week later

Alex Ferrari 15:06
A week later because you have to film all that stuff. And I was just like, how do I do that? That's brutal. And this is before iPhone. So there was literally no Yeah, average. There's nothing on that night. It was like I was the photo. So I feel you bro. I feel I've run I've ruined a bride or choose wedding myself.

Rel Schulman 15:22
I still, I still live with that guilt.

Alex Ferrari 15:27
I wake up in cold sweats sometimes.

Rel Schulman 15:29
Yeah, it sounds like you do to Alex. But you know what that kind of failure fuels me. Shooting the movies that we shoot now, which are you know, they they're their big budget, their studio movies, there's a lot of pressure. If you don't get something, we're the ones who pay for it in the edit. Six months later, right? You can't make a scene work. You can't make a transition work. And it haunts us for the rest of our lives.

Alex Ferrari 15:53
Yeah, exactly. Oh, I've been there. And then when you shouldn't be like, oh god, why didn't I get that one wide shot or, sir? And how do you cut around you're like, and then you don't want to go back and go, we need to pick up that you don't want to do that.

Rel Schulman 16:06
I mean, you know what, though, we we tried to never forget the catfish mentality, which was that we can shoot anything, it's, we can make anything happen with the equipment with our mediocre skills. And that goes for pickups, too. So we never say it's impossible. And we managed to figure out something whether we shoot it in the edit suite or in a friend's garage, or

Alex Ferrari 16:30
You read my mind, I did that on my first feet. I don't know that my first feature I there was like a whole scene. And I didn't cut any inserts. And we literally just I literally just went to the edit room grabbed the same camera shot an insert of like a dog on a pillow.

Henry Joost 16:44
Yeah, we shot stuff. We shot stuff in the editing room for this movie. Did you reality, we have we do it on every movie, I would say like we have a we have a Blackmagic 6k. Yeah, camera that we just just travels with as part of our kit. And so we're we're in the Edit constantly, we'll be like, I'm gonna go shoot that in the hallway right now. And we'll and usually we do a rough version. And then sometimes we even, you know, bring the actors back or bring break get we get the props in the editing office. So we can always we have a room just like that's full of the props. So we can just get inserts get whatever we need.

Alex Ferrari 17:20
In now you don't have to bring out a 35 millimeter panel vision camera. Yeah, wait a few days to shoot it. You could just pick up that little camera, boom, take the card out and pop it in and you're shooting and you're ready to rock. Yeah. So let me ask you. So you guys went from catfish to directing small films like Paranormal Activity three and four. Which did, which were not big budget films. They were actually all budgets considering at the studio, but they made massive amounts of money. So what is that? Like? How does the town treat you? What does that experience like? Because I know so many filmmakers would love to know what it's like being inside of the of the kind of the hurricane or the tornado that is being part of those kind of franchises and making that kind of money with those films.

Rel Schulman 18:03
Yeah, I mean, making the studio's money is it turns out to be a very important

Alex Ferrari 18:10
Key to a career as you're saying.

Rel Schulman 18:13
Hey, there's going to cut it but Jason Blum was was a big fan of cat fish. And he was producing those paraNormals at the time, and there had been paranormal too. And he had seen an early cut of cat fish in New York. He was friends with Directv. And he was like, oh shit, this is a good vibe for found footage. I think he believed us that catfish was real which it is but a lot of people didn't and so he showed it to the crew of paranormal two at Paramount and was like, Guys this is what down footage feels like. This is the aesthetic. This is the tone imitate this. And so by the time they got to paranormal three they were like, Well, why don't you try those goofballs and see if they have enough have any ideas for paranormal three. And it turned out the studio, Adam Goodman and a couple other bigwigs at Paramount were convinced it was fake, which I think made them even more interested in us paranormal being a fake found footage movie and there was nothing we could do to convince them it wasn't and I think we just kind of looked at each other and just like Zipit let let them think what they need to think let's take our first like real paying job. All

Alex Ferrari 19:30
Right, and run with it and run with it and you guys did a great and you guys did a great job with those films. And I imagined I imagined there was a little bit of pressure running into like a very successful franchise at this point. You know,

Henry Joost 19:41
The paranormal three I mean, it's not that there wasn't pressure it was it was a pressure cooker. But there was something about like paranormal three had lower because Panama two did really well but it didn't didn't do as well as Panama one. It was I think seen as sort of a steadily declining franchise. So There wasn't there was, which is pretty normal, I think, you know, unless sometimes things pop. But we were we kind of had a lot of freedom and in paranormal activity three, and had a lot of fun even though it was like, it was this incredibly compressed production window like we landed in LA, six months before the release date. We live in New York and they and Jason Blum was like, I need you guys to get on the first flight, the 6am flight tomorrow. We're like, how long are we going to go? Where are we going to be in LA for and he was like six months until the movie comes out. And we landed there. And there was no script. And there was no cast. And there was like, so we went from nothing at all to a movie in the movie theater in six months.

Alex Ferrari 20:42
And that's a Jason That's Jason

Henry Joost 20:44
That's classic Jason but the it was it was pretty fun. Weirdly, paranormal for became higher pressure because paranormal three did so well that then then all eyes were on four. And I think it actually made it a less and made it a less fun, more kind of constrictive creative environment than three three was like, actually, the codename for the movie was summer camp, I think. And it did kind of feel like summer camp like we were. We had this house, it was all wired up with lights and like, we had to cast everybody was really good at improv, and we were just messing around all day.

Alex Ferrari 21:24
You know, it's fun. And I've had Jason on the show he is a force of nature. Yes. Force of Nature, one of the most entertaining conversations ever. He's a madman. Now, is there something that you wish somebody would have told you at the beginning of your career? Like you guys can go back and tell yourself something like, Listen, guys, this is what you really need to do big first of all, get the shot. Get The Shot of that, of that bride? Yeah.

Henry Joost 21:53
Always make sure one cameras pointed at the bride.

Alex Ferrari 21:57
Other than that, is there anything else you wish you'd keep a camera on the bride? That pretty much covers everything?

Henry Joost 22:04
Yeah. Ben younger gave us good advice, which I which we took. Which was Don't wait. Don't wait forever after your first feature to make your second feature. Make your second feature as quickly as you possibly can. Don't be precious about it. Don't be precious. Just do just do it as quickly as you can. And he said he was like, advice we should have taken which was like, Well, I think when we were at Sundance, were basking in the attention. And like the movie, we're traveling with the movie and stuff like that. I'm doing q&a As he was like, you should be writing your next movie, you should be figuring out your next movie now. Because then when when things die down, you're just gonna be sitting there like, what do I do next? You know?

Rel Schulman 22:47
Yeah. And you get so caught up in the festivals and all those free dinners and meeting Danny DeVito. And you're like, oh, shit, it's been six months, and we don't have anything. And it wasn't easy to get another job because catfish was weird. I realistically, I think people like the storytelling and were curious, but they weren't like, Oh, these let's give these guys like, I don't know, Marvel movie or whatever was whatever you could, whatever they were looking for in 2012, or whatever that was. And so paranormal three was kind of the only job studio gig that we were really up for. Because it fit it matched the style of catfish so well. So we were really lucky that found footage was still a popular genre at that moment. Otherwise, it would have been a tougher transition out of catfish

Alex Ferrari 23:38
Than asking with all the all that attention you guys got off of not only staff fish, but also when you did it with paranormal three. How do you guys keep your egos in check? Because man, that is such a danger in our business. It's like when you start everyone tells you you're great. It's tough. It's tough. Do you guys keep you both? Both of you guys keep each other in check. Yeah,

Henry Joost 23:59
I guess so. Yeah, I think we're pretty hard on ourselves.

Rel Schulman 24:04
A little like Jewish self hate.

Alex Ferrari 24:07
So you said there's so there's a, there's a lot of imposter syndrome, even to this day.

Henry Joost 24:12
Yeah, I think when people are like, Oh, it's really great. I'm, like, irrelevant. Even when we talk to each other in private, we're like, it's okay. Right. It's like, it's better.

Rel Schulman 24:25
I think it's, it's a, it's a, it's a belief that we can keep getting better. So I don't think we're ever going to say like that's as good of a film as we can possibly make. Now it's time to relax. It's like there's always things that we could have improved their shots that we could have gotten. We could have storyboarded more, we could have been more prepared. And we'll get them on the next one. Yeah,

Henry Joost 24:49
We'll do better next time.

Alex Ferrari 24:52
No, I mean, I've talked to so many people on the show that you know, big huge, you know, win Oscars and so on legends and sometimes I go Do you guys still have impostor so From the like, yes. Like, really? It's like massive. It's fascinating to me, but it's like what is

Rel Schulman 25:05
The satisfaction we're looking for as filmmakers? We you know, so paranormal three was, at the time the biggest heart opening weekend ever. Right? Right, right. And we're like, whoa, okay, this feels this feels pretty great. But don't be like doesn't win an Oscar? Of course not. That was not

Alex Ferrari 25:27
What I felt you were robbed personally. That's just documentary.

Rel Schulman 25:35
Exactly. Or was it like, it's not going to the Cannes Film Festival, but a lot of people like it. Yeah. So it's like, you can't really hit every single base with a film. So what is the total satisfaction of filmmakers? I don't know. You just want to feel like you tried your hardest, right?

Alex Ferrari 25:52
And look, if you get a movie made, it's unbearable. If you got a movie finished in the can out people to watch, it's an absolute miracle every Yeah, every time a huge achievement. Oh, it's a massive achievement, especially when you're at that level when you're in the studio system. Even I mean, yeah, you got money, and you've got infrastructure and all that stuff. But that doesn't mean that anything gets even made. It's a it's a mystery, to honest.

Rel Schulman 26:15
Yeah, it's a total miracle every time

Henry Joost 26:18
You make a coherent movie is even harder. Like, I'm like, like, to me compliment start at like, well, you made the movie. Like that's, that's it. That's where they started. And then it's like, and it's coherent. Yeah. Makes nice. I understand what's happening in it. I finished

Rel Schulman 26:39
No, for you to say your kids finished the movie. Whether they liked it or didn't like it like it made.

Alex Ferrari 26:45
That's a win. That's a win. Yeah.

Rel Schulman 26:47
So hard. We married to a one on a movie just to get to the point where the operation the small business, or this has come together has come to life. It's standing on its legs. It's been a year, it's been two years, whatever it is. It's now there's 100 People standing there a lot of money's on the line, and a cameras rolling it's like, amazed. That's a miracle.

Alex Ferrari 27:09
Yeah, without question and, and you know, so you go on to do you know, viral with Jason again, and which was awesome. And nerve, which was such a unique love nerve, like the way that we shot it. The idea behind it. There was a lot of layers to that onion, which was really great. But then you make a movie like project power, which is a slight jump in budget, says cat fish. Just like yeah, it's just like a budget jump

Henry Joost 27:39
1000 times.

Alex Ferrari 27:41
So you're not working on a essentially a mini tentpole movie or a tentpole movie for Netflix. And you're working with an Oscar winner, and a massive movie star like Jamie Foxx. When you walk on the set, how do you guys deal with the pressure of that? Because, you know, look, you're like, I'm in the paranormal. That's a 5 million to depend on four or 5 million. And yeah, you've definitely jumped up in budget with the other films that you did. But even from nerve. I mean, project power is a huge jump for you guys. So how did you guys deal with the pressure of just having that on you with an Oscar winner like Jamie Foxx? You know, legend? Like, and all that stuff? How did you guys deal with it?

Rel Schulman 28:20
Besides Xanax?

Alex Ferrari 28:23
Okay, lots and lots,

Rel Schulman 28:26
Uppers and downers you know, we've never really talked about the sunray. But the moment on day one, where we always give a a speech to the crew, you know, there's 100 people standing around, something motivational like like a coach might do in a great football movie. And there's such a pit of anxiety and nervousness in my chest. Like, it makes me feel like I'm in high school. And I've got to speak to the whole school in the auditorium. Or I don't know if you guys ever jumped off a trapeze when you were a kid. And you look over and go to school. That wasn't a school and so, so I mean, that's the pressure, right? That is pressure, which is everyone's staring at us. I feel like a kid. I don't know how how old they see me as or how experienced they think we are. But I feel like like we're not supposed to be here. And dirty. Yeah. And yeah, we need to prove to them that we know what we're doing. We're comfortable and we're in charge and they can turn they can look at us as confident leaders.

Alex Ferrari 29:36
What is their I mean, that brings up a great point is a lot of times is when especially when when you're young directors, wherever when you're not that young if they just don't know what you've done before. How do you deal with the politics of the set? Like crew like you know, when you've got that, you know, 6060 or 70 year old DP who's been around is like when I worked with Coppola on on the Godfather like and you're like, What are you doing like and you have to kind of come up against like, I want to shoot it this way. You're like, yeah, no, that's not the way we're gonna shoot.

Rel Schulman 30:04
How do you deal with that? One of the special the special effects guy on project power? Feel the rock in Raiders of the Lost Ark? No, like, we were like, it's an honor to meet you.

Alex Ferrari 30:21
So, yeah, exactly. I've had I've had the opportunity to work with these kinds of people like that to you like the guy who built the boulder Raiders. He's probably done a few things in his career.

Henry Joost 30:31
Yeah, so we come out with a lot, a lot of love. Like, we're movie fans. So we're just like, you worked on Honey, I Shrunk the Kids. Like, why was that? How did you build the giant an Oreo? Like, how did you like yeah, that was awesome. But like, I don't know, we I learned a lot from Mike Simmons, who was our, been our cinematographer many times, just about he has this great way of dealing with people and not offending people. And he does like he, there are a couple of mannerisms. Like, he always says, I assume this he'll be he'll got to be won't be like, I assume that you're putting these lights up because we need this to come to the side. Like, it's not like, Why the fuck are you putting these over here? It's like, he'll be like, I like he'll say, his understanding of things. Like, that's really helpful. And like, I think just being being respectful and just being nice. And being you know, and giving people like, you know, I mean, we're not experts in in everything. We're really experts in nothing, you know, and like, you we hire people who are experts in things, who are, who know a lot more have a lot more experience are better. You know, and it's it's like, letting that experience learning from that, you know, but we have been lucky a bunch of times, like on paranormal three. And I think, with Jamie Foxx on project power. We were sort of seen as these like, on three, they were like, Well, these guys are kind of renegades like they made catfish. And my catfish was our reference film for the panel too. So like, maybe you guys can just like show us a thing or two. Jamie Foxx was like, just the greatest person to work with. And he's like, he's like, I trust you guys. I've seen your stuff. Like, show me the way, Tom, you know, tell me what to do. I trust your taste. I think you guys are really cool. And I think he gave us credit of being much cooler than we actually are. But like, you know, I can we haven't had that experience where it's the opposite of that with a movie star where it's someone who's who's guarded and suspicious and doesn't you know, because like that, that trust relationship has to be there for everybody. So it's establishing that making sure it's there.

Alex Ferrari 32:50
Yeah, if I if I make if I make quote, the greatest action film of all time, Patrick Swayze Roadhouse is amazing.

Rel Schulman 33:00
No. So sometimes we hear things people be like, Well, you guys are really nice directors. And we're like, how, what are the other guys like, oh, but but here's, here's the sympathy I have for an asshole director or the empathy. There's so much on the line for us on a movie, that everything that happens, every decision that gets made, everything that's in the movie sort of gets blamed on us blamed or attributed to, if you're working on the movie, you can kind of like move on. As long as your reputation is solid, you can get your next job, like, our next job kind of depends on how this movie does. And so that we feel that pressure every day, and I think maybe some directors are like, I need everyone else to feel that pressure. Why aren't they feeling the same pressure I'm feeling right now. And they explode and they go berserk. And that actually is not conducive to a good situation.

Alex Ferrari 33:59
I mean, yeah, exactly. I think you guys in the next film should show up with monocles and megaphone megaphone.

Rel Schulman 34:06
Yeah. Now, tell me if there's one thing I think you're an expert at. Hopefully, it was more than one thing. It's quiltmaking, which is the how to arrange this tapestry of experts and to get all those squares in the quilt to match and to make an overall piece. Thanks. Yeah.

Henry Joost 34:33
You're talking about people are actual quotes. Actual quotes. Yeah, actually. I can show you my my quote, man. Good.

Alex Ferrari 34:44
Tell me, tell me about your new film a secret headquarters. To family.

Henry Joost 34:49
It's the it's our first it's our first movie that kids can watch.

Alex Ferrari 34:55
Right! I was about to say. I was thinking like, filmography don't seem Yeah, this was a match for your to PG.

Henry Joost 35:02
Yeah, it's a PG movie. It's a family movie. It's really fun. It's actually something that we've wanted to make it's been on our bucket list for a long time is to make a movie that reminds us of the movies that made us fall in love with movies as kids, you know, so it kind of it What were your inspirations?

Alex Ferrari 35:21
What was your inspiration for this?

Henry Joost 35:22
Well, Jerry Bruckheimer when we first talked to him about this, which was a wild experience, he was like, I've got this thing it's it's it's home alone in the Batcave. It's called secret headquarters Home Alone in the Batcave. And we were like, saying no more. Got it. Yeah. We're in. Yeah. And it's, it's about it's about a kid. It's kind of a it's a superhero movie, but it's from the it's from the perspective of the son of the superhero. And what would it be like to be you know, Iron Man's son, but he never told you he's a superhero. Do you think he's just working all the time, but actually, he's got this incredible secret headquarters under his house full of gadgets and, and, you know, an awesome cars and stuff like that. And he's zipping off all over the world, saving the world. Meanwhile, you're at home thinking your dad's like, a nerd. Who's just like fixing people's servers. And we just like really got got our imaginations going. And we were just like, this would be my favorite movie when I was.

Alex Ferrari 36:28
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, everything. If you can't, if this filament came out in like the 80s, you'd be up there with like, Honey, I Shrunk the Kids or, you know, those kinds of or Neverending Story, those kinds. Yeah, those kinds of fun, fun films. And I was watching it. I mean, I definitely could have weeks, obviously nine and a half weeks and too much juncture to injunction. But when I was watching it, you know, you can there's a little bit of Spy Kids floating around. You could sense that the DNA of Spy Kids in there as well. But there's a lot of that too, so much. It was a lot of fun. And oh, and must have been a ball to work with.

Henry Joost 37:06
So great.

Rel Schulman 37:07
What a sweet guy, good natured collaborator,

Alex Ferrari 37:10
That is pretty much like he is in indices. Like what is he's?

Henry Joost 37:16
He's like how he is.

Rel Schulman 37:17
I think he's even kinder than you think he would be.

Henry Joost 37:21
And you forget what a great writer he is. Like he wrote, oh, yeah, he co wrote, you know, Royal Tenenbaums, and Rushmore and bottle rocket. Like, when he when we had rehearsals with him, we got into these dialogue riffs. And would we, we would just write it down and we and then we go home that night, we'd rewrite the scene and we'd send it to him. And he was like, you know, and we, we pop it back and forth. Like, that's, that was such a fun experience to have with an outer.

Alex Ferrari 37:50
Now as directors we all have that day on set. That is like you feel the entire world's gonna come crashing down around you. You losing the sun, camera breaks actor breaks his ankle, whatever. Generally, it's every day something like that happens. But yeah, was there one moment on that film that was like, Oh, my God, what was that moment? And how did you guys get through it?

Rel Schulman 38:10
Yeah, Henry. I don't know if you. I think I just realized today I was going through pictures what the, one of the biggest problems was, I mean, there's always money problems, but there's a huge prop slash character in the movie. And it's the GMO bill. Oh, yeah. Oh, retrofitted. 69 Volkswagen bus that Owen Wilson's character has turned into like a superhero. crime fighting truck. And it wasn't ready. And it was in scenes across the movie, like big action car chase scenes. And the guys who were building it weren't done. And it was shooting in like, two days. And it was so far from done to them.

Henry Joost 38:53
We kept pushing it back. Remember, we were like, there was in the schedule. And we'd be like, well, we'll shoot this side of the scene now. And then in a month, we'll shoot this side of the scene because the thing is background. Yeah, I mean, just like imagine

Rel Schulman 39:06
If they didn't have the Batmobile.

Alex Ferrari 39:08
It doesn't doesn't Yeah, obviously,

Rel Schulman 39:10
The schedule is so fragile, you know, especially with movie stars, like Owen and and he's shooting Loki. You know, it's all like happening the same time. And we're at the point where like the studio and the line producer, everyone's like, well, you need to be ready to erase the gene mobiel from the whole concept from the movie, but you've already shot many scenes where it exists before it gets retrofitted when it's just a VW bus. And that I mean, we really sweat that out.

Henry Joost 39:40
We had staked our our reputations on this vehicle like we like I remember we were kind of dying on our swords about it because there was a lot of pressure even before that to cut it to completely cut it from the movie. And we were like No, just because there was a cannot there can't be a superhero movie without You know, like, a superhero vehicle. And that's just, it just, it has to we have to have that. And it was kind of all it was on us. I remember pulling the picture car guy aside at one point and I was like, Listen, buddy, you got your, your toughest act. That's like, listen, I tried to I'm gonna try to say this in a really nice way. But like, if this thing isn't ready, we're never gonna work again. It was like, Oh, God.

Alex Ferrari 40:29
All right, let me see. If this isn't ready by tomorrow, guys. I know where you live.

Rel Schulman 40:36
We do like a good cop, bad cop thing sometimes where I'll say to the guy. Hey, buddy, I believe in you. You got this and then just walk away. And Henry will style over and be like what He means to say

Alex Ferrari 40:54
You know, it's always fascinating to me that even on some on big budget films like this shit happens.

Henry Joost 41:00
Oh, by the skin of your teeth. Yeah. Like,

Alex Ferrari 41:02
It's like, those indie sensibilities never kind of go away. You. You sometimes gotta like, how am I going to make this work that damn truck? The picture cars not ready. Would you would think that on a budget of this size and this kind of kind of size project? That that would be the least of your issues?

Henry Joost 41:19
Yeah. Yeah, one would think we have yet to work on that movie that's like has such a big budget that you can you know, you don't have to worry about anything. I don't know if that really exists.

Alex Ferrari 41:35
Or one day you'll hear this this sentence. All you have is time and money, guys. So enjoy yourself. You'll never that's a sentence that no filmmaker has ever heard ever. Right? No matter who you are. Maybe Chris Nolan may be crystal. Yeah, maybe. Maybe just a conversation. Now. When's this coming out? Guys?

Henry Joost 41:54
August 12.

Rel Schulman 41:55
Not just that next week. It's in a little more than a week. Yeah.

Henry Joost 42:00
Paramount plus.

Alex Ferrari 42:01
Now I'm going to ask you a few questions. I asked all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Rel Schulman 42:10
Say yes. To any project offered to you.

Henry Joost 42:15
Do not don't think camera at the bride. You read my mind. At least one camera

Alex Ferrari 42:21
At all times. No, just because a lot of times we get a little uppity as filmmakers and just like no I'm I'm the next. Spielberg. I'm the next Tarantino. I don't do weddings. You know?

Rel Schulman 42:32
Yeah, I don't I don't see why not a wedding is built in drama. I mean, look at a wedding is a documentary about people on a really important day with a lot of pressure. And all fam. I mean, some of the greatest movies. It's a genre of filmmaking, which is the family gathering the reunion, you know, like the Big Chill or something like that. Or Rachel Getting Married. Those are great movies. You have an opportunity. someone's paying you to make a documentary about that. That's the way we approached it. And it was it was great training.

Henry Joost 43:03
Yeah, it. Just practice, practice, practice, practice, man.

Alex Ferrari 43:07
Any job that came along, man, I would take it. I didn't care what it was like you're gonna pay me to edit. I'll work you're gonna pay me to shoot. I'll do it. It's just Yeah. And sometimes it's great. Yeah, a lot of times it isn't. But at least you're not out there hustling another job. And you get to at least work on your craft.

Rel Schulman 43:23
Yeah, exactly. Most of them weren't great.

Henry Joost 43:25
Yeah. No, they weren't. No terrible.

Alex Ferrari 43:30
Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Rel Schulman 43:36
Changed my socks midday. What what I was waiting for.

Henry Joost 43:42
That was a good one. even change your shoes.

Rel Schulman 43:44
Yeah. Oh, yeah. We bring two pairs of shoes to set now. Do you really? Yeah. Yeah. Just like yeah, freshen up.

Henry Joost 43:52
Those are like, I'll tell you what the great feeling.

Alex Ferrari 43:56
They never teach you this in film school. Good shoes on set on set because I'm always on my feet. I don't know about you guys. I'm all day. You rarely sit down. I like when I sit down. I'm like, Oh, God, I can't get back.

Henry Joost 44:11
I keep going. You gotta keep moving.

Rel Schulman 44:12
Yeah, totally. Man. I think Doug Doug Liman does not accept the director's chair on his sets. Because he refuses to ever sit down on set.

Henry Joost 44:25
And as a few directors, I've heard that don't allow chairs at all.

Alex Ferrari 44:29
Yeah, there's a there's a few. I mean, and then there's our cell phones. And then there's the Peter Jackson's who have a recliner on set.

Henry Joost 44:39
I'm talking about Lord of the Rings.

Alex Ferrari 44:40
They would just literally carry around a lazy boy. He would just sit down it was the best

Rel Schulman 44:47
Apparently the room we cut project power and on Sixth Avenue in New York City was the room that Oliver Stone cut something in Henry remember? Yeah, he had a leather recliner brought into that edit room that he just loved.

Alex Ferrari 45:00
But listen, I've had I've had Oliver Stone on the show, and, and he was one of the most interesting conversations I've ever had in mind. He is so smart. Oh my God, he's he's so so smart. And, and I tell people this all the time and you guys, I think you guys would agree. There's not another 10 year period. And any filmography, like Oliver stops from platoon from platoon, every movie a year, and everyone was like Oscar, Oscar incredible. Oscar, it's just, there's just nobody that's ever had a run like that.

Rel Schulman 45:40
It's Yeah, well, a couple is run is pretty solid, too.

Alex Ferrari 45:43
Well, you know, he's sorry, you did okay.

Henry Joost 45:47
I would I recommend Oliver Stones book is really great. Oh, yeah. That's why he was especially especially listening to it on on tape or on Audible. Like, he has such a great voice. Oh, yeah, it's a great audio, but it's uh, I love film filmmaker audiobooks.

Rel Schulman 46:04
We loved Barry Sonnenfeld book.

Alex Ferrari 46:07
Dude, I got when we when we get off. I'll tell you the story. Had Barry on the show, too. And in the first five minutes, he told me his porn story of how he got started in porn. I'll tell you that.

Henry Joost 46:16
Oh, my God. To me that chapter is like I think what's in the book, right? It's disgusting.

Alex Ferrari 46:23
The first five minutes of our conversation. He's that's what he starts with. I'm like, okay, Barry. I guess you've set the tone now. Porn man, that's how I got my start porn.

Rel Schulman 46:38
But in the book he's talking about and how he started and he said yes to everything and yeah. And the

Alex Ferrari 46:45
Pays camera off. He had to pay 60 millimeter camera off. Yeah.

Rel Schulman 46:49
Maybe a little longer than he needed to.

Alex Ferrari 46:51
By the way that porn paid half half the camera off in a week. So yeah,

Rel Schulman 46:55
I mean any shoot loves really worth it.

Alex Ferrari 46:58
From a party that he'd met this tall. You know, same guy in the corner who isn't talking to anybody is like, Hey, I got a camera. Hey, you want to shoot something? Great. That's your star starts.

Rel Schulman 47:08
Yeah, but it was just the sizzle reel for blood. So that was the system. It was you don't get paid to do?

Alex Ferrari 47:14
Nope. But then he got that. And then I think Raising Arizona. Oh God. What a great conversation. Great career. And last question three of your favorite films of all time.

Henry Joost 47:24
The Big Lebowski Yep, that's it.

Alex Ferrari 47:31
It stops there. Big Lebowski that's pretty much

Rel Schulman 47:37
Yeah, Big Lebowski. Gray man and red notice

Alex Ferrari 47:44
Very strategic answer sir very very steep.

Rel Schulman 47:49
I find that I find that to be the hardest question Am I still allowed to say Woody Allen movies?

Alex Ferrari 47:53
Look man look at any hostel Andy Hall brother. I'm sorry I'm sorry Annie Hall is still Annie Hall. I don't I mean, it's a masterpiece and

Rel Schulman 48:05
It's a masterpiece. You know what I've but if you're if it's there's got to be a Kubrick movie in there which there probably should be Barry Lyndon No, you're like bear Oh, yeah. Yeah, and it's not just to be different

Alex Ferrari 48:18
Mine is Eyes Wide Shut I'm an Eyes Wide Shut guy.

Rel Schulman 48:21
Oh you because you're a pervert. Very Seinfeld episode.

Alex Ferrari 48:30
Obviously the pervert that's why I love Oh, no, we could talk for hours on Kubrick alone Jesus man. Talk about somebody who just had all did whatever the hell he wanted. But but the ledges after I've talked to a bunch of people who worked with him. He's like he had a set of like, 10 people. Yeah, I finally was able to shoot for a year with Tom Cruise. Yeah. 10 people on set?

Rel Schulman 48:51
Yeah, who really believed in him. And we're like soldiers in his in his army.

Alex Ferrari 48:57
He locked up two of the biggest movie stars in the world for a year and a half. I mean, what kind of juice is that? Like? Seriously? I mean, Jesus, guys, it has been a pleasure talking to you both. So it Congratulations on all your success. I can't wait to see what you guys come up with next. And what do you guys have cooking next, by the way? Let's see something about this is something I'm Megaman

Rel Schulman 49:19
Yeah, Megaman adaptation of Megaman for Netflix. God plusspec Write about like the future of automation. Nice. Yeah, it's gonna be really cool man and robot becoming one good or bad.

Alex Ferrari 49:37
Guys, you see, it has been an absolute pleasure, guys. congrats on all your success and continue continued success.

Rel Schulman 49:43
Thanks Alex. Thanks for all the hustle .

Henry Joost 49:45
Thank you so much.

IFH 605: Vampires, Stunts, Bloodsuckers & Netflix with JJ “Loco” Perry

JJ “Loco” Perry spent the last 25 years as a Stunt Coordinator and Second Unit Director, directing and designing action for talent such as Dwayne Johnson, Tom Hardy, Jason Statham, Keanu Reeves and Will Smith. A member of the prestigious 87Eleven Action Design, Perry previously collaborated with directors such as Ang Lee, Justin Lin, Chad Stahelski, F. Gary Gray, Spike Lee and Paul Feig – which prepared him for his feature directorial debut on DAY SHIFT.

Perry has trained additional actors for stunts such as Gina Carano (HAYWIRE), Gerard Butler (300), Milla Jovovich (ULTRAVIOLET), Hugh Jackman (X-MEN ORIGINS: WOLVERINE) and Kiefer Sutherland (“24”).  He’s also worked with Joss Whedon on ANGEL and FIREFLY and Mike Norris on WALKER, TEXAS RANGER.

Perry was nominated for a SAG Award in 2009 for Outstanding Performance by a Stunt Ensemble for IRON MAN and nominated for a World Stunt Award in 2013 for SAFE and won in 2004 for Best Overall Stunt in THE RUNDOWN.

After graduating high school, Perry served in the Army’s 82nd Airborne Corps.  He started his martial arts training in 1975 and began stunt-work after he got out of the Army. He has had over 24 years of martial arts training and has a 5th-degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do, a 2nd-degree on Hapkido and has experience with all kinds of weapons. He got his black belt for Tae Kwon Do at the age of 12 and competed from the age of 7 till 24. Besides martial arts, Perry is also skilled in cycling, rodeo and weightlifting.  He is the co-founder of Taekwondo West martial arts schools in Inglewood, California, and Venice, California.

J.J. PERRY’s directorial debut, DAY SHIFT, is an action-comedy that begins a new franchise for Netflix starring Jamie Foxx, Snoop Dogg and Dave Franco. DAY SHIFT follows a hard-working blue-collar dad (Fox) who just wants to provide a good life for his daughter.  But his mundane San Fernando Valley pool cleaning job is a front for his real source of income, hunting and killing vampires as part of an international union of vampire hunters. DAY SHIFT premieres on NETFLIX August 12, 2022.

Take a quick inside look on the making of Day Shift.

Enjoy my conversation with JJ “Loco” Perry.

Right-click here to download the MP3

J.J. Perry 0:00
Day Shift is an example of stuff we get everything in camera, even the contortions, I just shot it in reverse. And so it's so you know, like, doesn't speak to me to do to work on a big cartoon movie. And I've worked on a ton of movies where everything's animated, you spent five months in a blue screen stage. That's not what I want to do.

Alex Ferrari 0:17
This episode is brought to you by the Best Selling Book, Rise of the Filmtrepreneur how to turn your independent film into a money making business. Learn more at filmbizbook.com. I'd like to welcome to the show. JJ Perry. How're you doing JJ?

J.J. Perry 0:32
Good my brother, how are you?

Alex Ferrari 0:34
I'm good, man. I'm good. Now there is sometimes I see in your credits. There's another name in between JJ and Perry. Which is locco? Is Is that Is that true, sir? Look at all. For people who are listening, he just stood up and showed me his tattoo of locco on his stomach. Listen, before we even get started brother I've worked with a ton of stunt people over the over the course of my career. I have yet to meet a stunt person who's not nuts in the best, most beautiful loving way that word could be used. I've I've had this is what this is. This is this is the conversation with some people when I ever worked with him on his set as a director. I need you to jump off that and you jump off that that building over there he goes, Can I can I go play? Can we go five floors? No, no, I just third floors fine. No, no, I can do I can go 10 floors, I can just move on. I could do 15 If you want to do and you want me to be on fire, I could be on fire. I need it for my real can I be on fire too? And I'm like, can I work? So it's like, no matter what I asked, they'd be like, no, no, no, that's not enough. We can I could drive the car off the roof on fire flip through.

J.J. Perry 1:39
Oh, that's kind of the that's kind of the mentality. You know, like, it's we're always trying to go bigger, faster, stronger. You know, that's kind of the where the where the mindset is always trying to outdo what we did last time. You know, it's like anything else, you know, you you want to step one step beyond what you did last time, we always trying to we're always trying to push the envelope.

Alex Ferrari 1:56
No, absolutely. And, and every every staff person I've ever worked with has been the utmost professional. And it seems like they're not, but there's so calculated and so specific about what they're doing. So everyone stay safe, you know, and all that kind of stuff because I mean, you know, stuff that you guys do is this insane and, and it can't go wrong. And it's really it's really amazing what you do and you met so let's take it let's take it back where the how and why did you get into this insanity that is the film business.

J.J. Perry 2:25
So I graduated from high school back in 86 out of out of Stanford, Texas, and I worked on two films that came through Houston one was called pray for death. It was a show Kosugi film back when the ninja craze was out. And another one was call. They still call me Bruce. It was like an action comic.

Alex Ferrari 2:43
I remember. I remember that movie dude those amazing.

J.J. Perry 2:46
Johnny and the Korean guy, Korean actor. And so you know, I'd already sworn in to go to join the army. So there was no getting out of that. And towards the end of my stint in the army I out processed two to Fort Ord California. I was that's where I was going to out process from. And when I was at Fort Ord, I was on the army taekwondo team. At the time I was going down, I was competing all over California and all over, you know, the US and et cetera. And I went down to LA a couple times to compete. And some of the guys I was competing against were were stunt men. And you know, because I'd been stationed Korea for a year I was I had a leg up on him. You know, I was you know, competing on a very high level at that time. And but one of the guys who's no longer with his name is Chris Cornell was a dear friend of mine. He died in a motorcycle wreck a couple years ago. But he were the same size, same age. And I was like, what do you get? He had nice shoes, nice car, and I was like, Dude, what are you drunk? Do you because No, man, I'm a stuntman. And coming down from from Fort Ord, you know, like, came down and train a few times. About two weeks later, he said, Hey, man, there's a big audition here for a movie called Lionheart it was Van Damme second movie. Yeah, so I took a three day pass drove down and booked the job but the problem was when I went back to ask my first sergeant if I could you know take three weeks off to do a movie he was like, No, you can do no movie boy you we got work to do. We got Army work to do boy so they called me Hollywood up until the time I out processed and then I told them you know, like I said, you know, I didn't know what I was going to do at that time. I figured I would go down to LA and give it a try. I didn't really know anyone except for Chris and I figured you know I'm gonna give it a try and so I just drove down to five South never made the left turn on the tend to go back to Texas and I thought I would probably fuck that up for sure and be back in the army at no time because I knew they'd be saving a seat at the table for me but it just worked out and here we are 32 years later talking about my talking about my movie that I just directed which I can't believe so I never expected any of this my brother I fumbled my way through all of it. And I'm super grateful for every moment that I've had.

Alex Ferrari 4:53
So what was so what was your first big break in the as a as a stunt guy?

J.J. Perry 4:59
Well, So we kind of broke down like this. I didn't really the first week I landed in LA I, I was answering phones at a taekwondo school on Wilshire in La Jolla as well to some taekwondo. And there was a call for they were looking for guys for the cross trainer, Reebok commercial, the very first one for the Super Bowl at that time. And one of the guys that she said, Hey, I don't have my car, can you give me a lift one of the guys that was like an actor type, do did had an agent and whatever. So I drove him over there. And it was in it was in West Hollywood. Park, he goes in, he's taking a while. So I put 50 cents in the meter. I go upstairs and the lady says, Hey, did you put your name down on so I wrote down my name and the number of the taekwondo school. And then I wrote down my friend's name and his agents name and I went in because the movie The commercial was about, it was about basic training. It was like called the Reebok cross trainer pumps. But it was like, they shave your head. It was like an army thing. So I went in there. I was like, Barry, JJ, ak 541109. You know, they were like, oh, shoot, who's this guy? You know, I just literally just got out of the army. And I booked booked that job. So that's how it started? No, I didn't anticipate like when the when the checks started coming in the mailbox. Or, you know, you know, you make 750 bucks a month in the army. I almost started crying, you know, and, and then we have been forever.

Alex Ferrari 6:21
So for everybody listening. You were in a Superbowl commercial. What was we talking about? The early mid 80s?

J.J. Perry 6:26
No, I'm talking about like, 1990 for the

Alex Ferrari 6:30
Right. So your your 1990 Superbowl commercials, the money the residuals off flop? Flop? It's insane. I'm talking about 10s of 1000s of dollars in 1990.

J.J. Perry 6:43
Yep, yeah, that's true. And then then I started doubling a double Lorenzo Lamas a few times down on Renegade, we're down in San Diego, then I doubled Russell Wong and a TV series called vanishing son that that I told you about Jeff cut TNT earlier, a dear friend of ours. Yeah. And kind of how it started, you know, like stunt work is networking. And, you know, it's kind of like they're, they're always looking for the man or woman that's not scared to go big, and it's safe. And they're not looking for the crazies. They're looking for the calculated smart, you know, individuals who, who are ready to go big and have a strong physicality and, you know, having a background in Taekwondo and being in the military, like, when I got out of the army, I didn't realize what I wouldn't be able to apply some of the skills I learned in the army was except for being a cop. But then I quickly realized that, you know, the hard work and the work ethic of being in the Army after the army, nothing else is really ever hard again, you know, so I got that out of the way pretty quick in life. So it was really easy for me to get up at five in the morning and do my road work and go out and meet people and do my thing. So yeah, that's how it all happened for me was those two TV shows got me going in that commercial. And here we are.

Alex Ferrari 7:50
So but so there is I mean, I think there is a stunt school now. But there was Was there anything like a stunt score? Did you just learn on the job,

J.J. Perry 7:56
Learn on the job, and I'll never forget my first car hit, you know, I had to do a get hit by a car on Renegade, they wanted me to want to run into the middle of the street with a with a with a female stunt woman, there's a briefcase and illustrating, they want us to race to the briefcase, and then a Lincoln Continental hits us both. So I'm thinking to myself, you know, I don't want to seem like a you know, like, I don't know what I'm doing. But I also don't want to get killed or make a mistake and hurt my my, my counterpart. So I asked the stunt coordinator, I said, Well, you know, What's the objective of this? He said, Well, your objective is not to get underneath the car row. So, so Right, right, or get light on your feet, write up the hood, get up into the windshield, and if he punches you through, just go all the way over. And if he doesn't just get you know, get outside the car. And so what I did was I just got very aggressive and I the car actually hits you, but I in my mind, I was thinking I'm gonna hit the car. And next thing I know, it was light, it was darker, his life was darker, his life was dark, and boom, I was on the pavement. I was like, Oh, that was so bad. You know. So there was my first part of it.

Alex Ferrari 8:57
I gonna ask you man and I've always wanted to ask, I always wanted to ask them a stunt guy this. What is it in the brain? There's something in your mind in your brain that allows you to go hey, that wasn't so bad. You just said. I think that's absolutely horrific, personally, because that's not that's not in my DNA. So what is it? What is that thing that stunt people have? That not only do they want to do it and enjoy doing it, but they want to continue to one up themselves and keep pushing themselves physically with the complexity of this stuff. And we haven't gotten into fight coordination which we'll get into but but just instance there's something in the DNA of some people that I've at least that I've experienced. What is that? I'd love to hear your opinion on that.

J.J. Perry 9:42
So the generation before me that what I came in were a lot there were a lot of cowboys, you know, and being from Texas, I'm you know, kind of a cowboy too, but that background of riding rodeo or bull riding or bronc riding or or bulldogging you know, you have to be able to you know, can't can't be scared to get hit. So a lot of stuff Non performers come from, you know, a rodeo background or an athletic background like football players or so. But for me, I had 168 amateur fights when I got out of the army. So, like, I wasn't scared to get hit. And you know, being an athlete on that level, like being on the national team or being competing on that level, you have to, there's a lot of me, there's that moment of truth that we all have, you know, like that where you can't lie in that moment, you have to be very real about what's going to happen and you have to make peace with it, you have to be calm in that moment, in all those years of competition, and being in the Army helped me settle into being in a very precarious position. And being being at peace with it, and making up my mind, okay, I did one you can, it's not just like, you're gonna do one, you're gonna get one time, you're probably gonna do it three or four times. It's also pain management, it's also your ability to to strive under pain, like when you get when you're getting hurt now that the difference between getting hurt and getting injured, getting hurt means you get up and do it again, getting injured means you're and you're on a ride and in an ambulance to the hospital gets sewn up or a broken bone. So I would say that most of the stunt performers, we all share the same likes, you know, like, we all came from an athletic background, or you know, X Games now, which I think are some of the most amazing people parkour athletes. Now, you know, UCLA liberal level, gymnasts, some of the some of the best female stunt performers that I work with were elite gymnast at some point, because, you know, you think like, my daughter is in gymnastics, and she started when she was four, but you have the little girls doing this, where they're peeling their hands up, and they're dealing with pain, and there, it's all about that one second, that you have to hit the vault, right? You know, you have to gather all that, you have to make up your mind, I'm going for it. So that's kind of like doing being a stunt performer. You know, you just have to be able to, to not lie in the moment of truth to be present in the moment of truth and execute, you know, so it's all about seeing yourself do it. So I feel like that's something that we all have in common. You know, like one of the one of the big things for me is like being on the road with a bunch of like minded folks coming up with just killer ways to physically displace humans, that's my job, you know, is, is coming up with clever ways to do it, but not injure them, you know, but make it like, because now there's more movies and more content being made than any time in the history of cinema, film. And the expectations are way higher, when way higher, you know, that like with video games, and anime, and all these other things that kids are watching. Now they, you know, diehard is a great example of a movie that I loved in the 80s. But if you if you put a 16 year old kid to watch that now, they'll be on their phone looking at their Instagram in 20 minutes. You know, it's just it's not what they're, it's not going to capture their attention. You know what I mean? It's it's stuff that we've done already, which is it's AMAZING film. And I've got to work with McKiernan before. He's an amazing director. But that's an example to me of where it came from, and where it's going. You know,

Alex Ferrari 12:49
That's really interesting, because, I mean, I was watching, cuz I'm a huge fan of fall guy, the original show back in the day. And my wife and I were watching it. This is like, probably five, six years ago, we sat down and we watched the first full first season because we're like, oh, man, remember, fall guy. Let's go back and watch those man, those were frickin awesome. And you're watching it. And as you're watching what they did on a weekly basis, on a weekly basis, you're like, that was all real. Like, these guys are insane. You don't see that kind of that kind of stunt work in television today. It was just, they were doing gags. I mean, jumping off roofs, I'm like, full blown. It was insane what they were doing. And you're going back. And that's Oh, that was all in camera. We're now I think and you've seen you've started at a point where it was all still in Canberra. And now you've got digital stunt performers doing some really insane stuff. But I do think that as as, as the audience, we can tell when, you know, Fast and Furious is fun. But you know, and the Marvel movies are fun. But, and there's some performers that do do stuff there is great, but when you watch something like John Wick, you feel it a lot more. And you've been on you've worked on John Wick, obviously, but you feel that this is not a CG situation.

J.J. Perry 14:08
You know, listen, around 2003 or four, everybody started saying, oh, we'll fix it and post. You know, for me, and I'll tell you something about Fast and Furious, because I've done too. I did eight, nine a second year directed at none. And I'll tell you something, we did wreck 340 cars, and we do go 1000 miles an hour when we're doing those movies. So there is a dirty way to fake fast is to go really fast. It's fast and furious, not slow and curious. But at the end of the day, it's a day for me. It's like I day shift is an example of stuff. We did everything in camera, even the contortions I just shot it in reverse. And so it's all that so you know, like, doesn't speak to me to do to work on a big cartoon movie. I don't I've worked on a ton of movies where everything's animated. You spent five months in a blue screen stage. That's not what I want to do. I don't usually take a look For those jobs, I'm looking for the jobs where I can lock up Edinburgh, Scotland like on Fast and Furious eight, and do a massive car chase and chase flying over cities on wires and fighting and breaking new buildings, or John Wick or you know any of these new like, I'll give an example Gemini Man is another example of an amalgamation of both. We went to Cartagena, Colombia and this massive motorcycle chase that we did all practically. And then with a augmented Will Smith's face onto the motorcycle writer. So there's an element of both that I think works, okay, that I like, when it's a complete digital takeover. And pretty soon, you know, I think action directing is going to be a lost art soon. There's not a lot of this, it's infinitely harder to lock to block a big car chase up, when you got 19 cars and for motorcycles and helicopters and explosions. That's, that's not easy to do. It's actually a lot harder to do than most people think. That's where second unit comes in. And in all the experience that I gained from being a second year director, making the efficient and fast and it's like, it's like, cool, I'm not thinking about my shot. I'm thinking about my next five shots and my leaves to get to every shot. That's, that's filmmaking. I'm running nine cameras sometimes. So it's that it's that nine cameras spread, redirect, next street, the nine cameras that and push pull track counter, and then mount and then go to the next street. So, you know, that's something that I think will be a lot start soon, because there'll be animating those cars at some point, you know, which breaks my heart, but I'll be long gone by then.

Alex Ferrari 16:34
Exactly. No, I mean, yeah, I mean, when I said like fossil fuels, I remember like when they do jumping a car from a building to a building, I'm assuming I didn't do that live? No. But things like that. But yeah, there was in those those shows specifically, there's a ton of cars that they use, and you could tell that there's cook. And that's one of the things that made the original, so amazing, it was all real in camera. And that's the thing you're right, there's a lost art I have to want to ask you is it think it's confusing to a lot of people listening, especially young filmmakers, what is the hierarchy in the stunt department. So you start off with like a stunt performer? What is the hierarchy as far as the department heads and things,

J.J. Perry 17:09
I can tell you the way it went for me, I started as a utility stuntman, then I became a stunt double. And because of my background in martial arts, and being in the army, I started become I started courting, choreographing the fights that I was in. And then that led me to becoming a fight choreographer. And then I became a stunt coordinator. And then I became a second unit director. And you know, there's, there's a lot of ways to climb the ladder, but I feel like that's the long route. But that's the most important route to take. Because if you miss one of the rooms, you want to you want to hit every rung you want to learn every facet of the game, you know, driving motorcycles, water, fighting, falling fire, you know, horseback, every facet, the more facets that are on the diamond, the shinier that diamond is and the more money you can eventually make it with your in your profession. So I wanted to educate myself on every facet of that. And that's that's how it went. For me. It's a bit different now because now there's infinitely more jobs than there are than there were when I started in. Now, you can come in as a specialist on a fight guy, oh, I'm a parkour guy, or I'm a gymnast, or, and that's that's the way they come in. And that's the way they go. So but you know, that doesn't, I'm not knocking them. There's some amazing talent out there. Now with you know, I think once YouTube hit, and editing software became a consumer products, editing software made a lot of us action directors, because once you know how to edit, it informs what you need to shoot. And you know, growing up on watching that as meet at Jackie Chan films where he really changed the game of fightings. And he's one of them. He's an idol of mine, because he's a stuntman that became a star and then became an action director. So I mean, that's, you know, like he was a Charlie Chaplin and a, what's his name? Buster Keaton, Buster Keaton. He was in Kansas, a huge fan of we all are, but that's kind of where his inspiration came from. And our my generation like I came up with Chad's to hausky, and in Dave Leach, and a lot of the guys over at 711 I'm a member of that crew and I'm also a member of sons unlimited. Who were those original guys that did the fall guy since Unlimited is they've been around since 1973. But that's um yeah, but that's kind of how it was. And you know, watching chance trajectory is kind of the way like, has he changed what we do did we took his movies and we were reshoot shoot his action sequences with cameras and then cut them even on VHF, ah, VHS deck to deck until Final Cut became a consumer product we all chipped in, and then we all learn how to edit. And then we became action directors, budding action directors.

Alex Ferrari 19:43
Now, you know, with all the insane, you know, gags that you guys have done over the years has had there ever has there ever been a stunt that you just said, Nah, man, I gotta walk away from this one. This is just too, too risky.

J.J. Perry 19:57
The biggest thing I ever did was getting married to a lawyer. So no, I look at the end of the day. I'm not I'm just okay in the water. You know, I'm not I'm not. I've done it's done though. Did you see the movie? The Rundown? Yeah, of course. Yeah the Roku I was doubling Sean William Scott when we went down the mountain and over the falls and all that shit. Me and Paul Heliopolis and ton of I read Marcos roar we were there was two sets of doubles for each because we were getting so busted up. And there was a scene where we had to go into a lagoon and swim towards a waterfall. And yeah, Bhutan and jeans on and tunnel. I read his Hawaiian, he's from Hawaii's big. He's like a shark. When he gets in the water. He's massive. And he's like, you know, he's got gills you can swim like a fish. And his wife was doubling the girl in there and she's another one grew up in Hawaii. He's like, after take three or four I started getting really tired. I was like, Hey, man, I'm probably need to tap out. So I would say like doing a lot of water work for me is not my forte. I'm like a brick. I'm like a brick from Texas. You put me in the water. And I might go right to the bottom row.

Alex Ferrari 21:02
Fair enough. Now you You also got involved in one of my favorite films of the 90s Mortal Kombat, man. Dude, how did you get involved with them? Then you eventually played some of the parts of like sub zero and those kinds of things. I mean, again, those at the time. I remember at the time and I mean, you couldn't go anywhere without listening to that damn song. In the radio, first of all, what was it? I mean, how did you get involved with that project, man, and how did you guys make it look so cool back then.

J.J. Perry 21:30
So I was I used to have two taekwondo schools in LA while I was a stuntman. I had one in Inglewood. It's called take one to west, one in Inglewood and one in Sherman Oaks. And the one in Sherman Oaks. I had a friend named Dana he who was already working on the movie, she was an Olympic gold medalist from taekwondo. We're friends from my sport from taekwondo. We were teammates like friends, you know, competitors together and dear friends. He was dating Larry cows and off the producer of Mortal Kombat at the time. They were looking for a stunt double for Johnny Cage for the additional photography of Mortal Kombat. One key brings Larry into my school in the middle of one of my classes, and I can see Luke staring at me and I'm like Dino, who's the dude staring Bisleri Cazenovia brutish, and short combat, and, you know, classes over I meet him like, nice to meet you, sir. Can you say Hey, can you show me some kids and I bust out a 540. And I bust out a bunch of oh, man, it's awesome. Can you turn around for me? And I was like, what's that mean? He's looking at the back of my head. So if I could double the actor who's playing Johnny Cage, and he was like, this perfect. Two days later, I get a call from Robin Chu, who was the was the star of the movie. And also one of the fight coordinators and Jeff and moto was a stunt coordinator, I get a call, Hey, you want to come down and double Johnny Cage for the additional fight with scorpion on the on the bamboo bridge thing and it was a it was a big additional scene. So I got to do that. And as soon as that was, you know, as soon as it was a big hit, they greenlit to then I played scorpion and Cyrax into and did some doubling for little doubling for Raiden a little doubling for smoke a little doubling for all the characters but played to the characters. And then when the TV series came out in there, he called me and says, Hey, we come down and double come loud, so double calm loud for the first few episodes. And then they said, Can you play scorpion? Can you play SubZero? And I was like, Yeah, dude, I do whatever. You know, like, I'm happy. Like, I was always concerned about my acting, but when you have that thing on your face, you know, it's like, just zero. So I want some zero now I'm Chubs zero. That's how it goes. But that was like my Mortal Kombat experience. You know, like, I was super, super stoked. Now that a lot of the youngsters that work for me now they pull it up on YouTube, and I'm a little embarrassed about my bad acting and whatever, you know, a loincloth

Alex Ferrari 23:39
It's the 90s Bro, what are you gonna do? Basically bills dog what are you gonna do? It pays the bills and pay the bills? No question. Now, you know, is it as you became a second unit director, which I still think second unit directors are some of the most technically sound directors out there. If you can direct action. You can direct cinema because it's a visual medium. I think what someone who said it is like my favorite directors are action directors like Tony Scott, and those in those kinds of guys who just are so technical, and visual. What are mistakes that directors make when setting up an action sequence that you've seen?

J.J. Perry 24:19
So you know what we've done? Like at 711 is is the team I've been on before that it was called Smash cuts and it was it was kind of a the crew of us that came up in the 90s together likes to hausky leach Marcus young Mike Gunther Danny her net there was a bunch of Brad Martin and Garrett Warren. These are all guys that are prominent social media directors now that are running the they're running all the fights up in the last 30 years what we did once the Final Cut came out we start shooting stunt does what which is an act we shoot and cut the sequence before we go to the set on we make a room full of boxes that measures out from the production designer and then we shooting cut it sure offer shot where we make the action the star. Without we want to tell our students certain story points after having a discussion with the director, and a discussion with the DP about his style, you know, like, and we, we give them a broad outline of what it would look like, based on their version. And usually we get it right within three versions, like we tied it up within three verses, I've been paired up in the past few years with a lot of first and second time directors, I get paired up with them often to, you know, to help when it comes to the action, it can be quite daunting, you know, like, if you're not used to doing it. And you're right, locking up Scotland with a bunch of cars, and doing why work over a city, and using nine cameras, is infinitely harder. Now that I've done both than directing a scene with three people in a room talking, unless you don't have three good actors. Well, there's bad actors, maybe it's way harder. But my point being the technical execution of that the application of filmmaking is is extremely difficult, especially when you're going 70 miles an hour. And you're gonna go like through seven streets with explosions and whatever, and you have a finite amount of time to do it. Because second unit is never is elaborate, or is funded is first unit is it has to be a streamlined, streamlined event that that moves like that moves like a rocket. So I think one of the mistakes that one of the mistakes that a lot of first and second time directors make is not having a clear vision of what they want. And sometimes my job is to help them discover their vision, whether he or she knows what it is or not. So it's my kind of I always take it upon myself is it's my job, and they don't know, to show them. And they give them options too. That's my job as a stunt coordinator, as a fight coordinator, and a second unit director is to help the director achieve their vision of the action, which is harder than achieving your vision of the action. When I know what I want, I always know what I want. So as a director, I came in with a really solid plan for my movie, I'd had to set my production designer, Greg Berry, we already knew what the sets were going to be and where to put the neoprene in which walls needed to fly because the cameras gonna do this I already knew. So it's, it's it's a new, it's like, it's in the neighborhood that I've been roaming around for 32 years. And if you're new to the neighborhood, it's easy to get lost. And I think a lot of the one of the things that some directors are a little intimidated by is they don't want to, they don't want to, they want to go out and wander around and find it for themselves. And that's cool. But we're not in film school, we're in film work when we're making a movie. So you do have a finite amount of time. And you have to be decisive because every decision you make, as a director has a ripple effect from all of the departments that it has to go to production designer, okay, you're fighting, go to tear this costume needs to go, you punch him here, what makeup needs this, you're gonna break his arm props and prosthetic arm needs to go and using. So you have to be decisive and give your team a chance to react to your decisions. So it's not last minute. And this is one of the mistakes that I think a lot of first time directors make is there. They don't want to decide that they will not make decisions in time.

Alex Ferrari 28:20
Now, when you were involved with John Wick, I mean, that must have been a dream. Like that project must be because it was just such a old school approach to fights. And it's not like being caught 50,000 angles. It's like you see Keanu beaten up three guys one shot. And you it's not like the famous one is like, you know, I don't know if you know who shot taken three or two or whatever. But you see, you know, I saw this one, this one sequence somebody on YouTube, it was so beautiful. It's like, it's Liam running and jumping across a fence as he's chasing somebody with 75 cards. I was like no joke was a tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick tick. As opposed to something like John Wick you just look at and you're like, that's just that's a What was it like to just get in the car and go on. I'm not gay brother.

J.J. Perry 29:09
So I was on Expendables three in Bulgaria with Jason Statham and Sylvester Stallone on a container in, in, in. In Sofia shooting machine guns when Chad Stahelski called me we're, we're teammates and you know, mad respect to Chad and Dave for what all that they've accomplished. You know, they that style of mixing Judo with jujitsu in gun work. He calls me and I was about to finish up in Expendables three he said, Hey, listen, I'm doing the shoot out in a nightclub in New York on this on my movie John Wick. I need your help because I was in the army. So I know how to work the gun work and and look, we were all a big fans of hardboiled. You know, the John was so but I want to get my hands on those Chinese guns that have 500 bullets in them. He never reloads I love those guns. I want to get one of those. But that's one of the things that we one of the monitors will I was that we would be true to that. If you're running a Glock 17. With a regular magazine, you have 15. And one, you have an extended mag you get at 17 and one or 18 and one. So that was it, I got the call to come down, they were shooting the lat the final scene out in the dark when he's fighting the father of the guy at the end, he gives me an address of a nightclub and says we want to shoot, we want to start shooting, we're gonna shoot this nightclub scene at this place. Can you go there, I got there on a Friday afternoon. They're shooting at night. So I just drove to that address gave the door guy 100 bucks to let me in and walk through there. He said it'll start at the top. When you go up the stairs, the room you're right and started as a door to walk in. You'll go through we'll work our way all the way around the top floor, and then we'll the beginning of it will pull into the dance floor. So I just walked with my iPhone doing a first person shooter it patrons of the club, then I would turn the phone around to myself do a reload. And then so what John Wick is it's exactly the opposite. It's reverse first person shooter. It's always on Qian and pulling him and then wrapping in until it falls apart. And then we do it all over again. So it's a big pool into a rap. And that's that's technically the idea that theory of shooting. So you see Keanu Reeves is doing this. So for me once a week once I got there and we started working that out. I knew right away looking into monitors with Chad and Dave, I was like, Dude, we're on one. You guys are on one right now. As it's cutting edge, because in your gun. This is the thing. Now that I've done a John Wick I've done to you I did the just the club scene shoot out in the first one. And then I did all of the second one. And we upped Keanu was training camp for the second one because what Chad said to me said, how can we make to better than one I said, Well, you have to make Keanu better. So we put him in a really hard jujitsu camp Judo camp, took him to a three gun range and hadn't trained by a, you know, a 14 time world three gun champion, Taran Butler up here in Simi Valley, we just made him better, and then let the camera run longer. So you know, that was it was one of the highlights of my career because I'm a dear friend and fan of Keanu Reeves. I'm a huge fan of Chester house because we go back 30 years, one of the first people I met when I got out of the Army, he's been a huge a huge ally. You know, like, again, I didn't really have a plan when I got out of the army. I just didn't want to fuck things up and have to end up back in the army. But you know, Chad, you know, went to USC, he was always a he always knew that he I think he always knew he was going to be a director. And I really admire that I kind of watched where he walked in the snow and followed his footsteps. So you know, he was actually a producer on day shift. He was the one that I took it to the gotten greenlit. So that was, you know, that was one of the big, helping him out and working with our team at at 711 was, it's always a pleasure. There was a lot of hitters on that movie, bro. And the first and second one.

Alex Ferrari 32:53
So it's so funny because I remember Dave, I met Dave on in Sundance 2005 When he was promoting as a sledge. Yep. You remember that movie?

J.J. Perry 33:08
Yeah, we worked on it. We all do it.

Alex Ferrari 33:10
You weren't. So I was yeah, he was like he was doing like a stunt thing. And I met him and we hung out for a while. And this is before you know, a few years before he did John Wick. But as I was watching his career gromek Matt got blessed. I'm so glad he's, he's done good for, for himself over the years, man. It's, it's awesome. Now,

J.J. Perry 33:32
You know, if you look at if you look at stunt performers trajectory, like I've worked on 150 features, and over 300 episodes of TV, when you're working with Angley, gently Spike Lee, when you've worked with everyone, you have to learn something if you're paying attention. You know, like that's a different I guess the difference between a stunt guy and a stunt man, a stunt guy is just trying to make a bunch of money and get some toys. A stuntman is out there trying to make the movie better, and he's paying attention to every shot and trying to make every shot better. So you know, being being a stunt man, you know, and learning from some of the masters and learning just as much from second and first and second time directors on what not to do sometimes. Right part of my film school. And you know, Dave and Chad are alike. So the first one is the guy who directed from my group that directed smoking the bandit. Okay, I'll need him. How's that? Yeah. So he busted out in the 70s. He's one of the founders of my group sons Unlimited, you know, so he's one of the guys that busted out and you have a few stunt directors who in the US that have done some movies, you know, like Jackie Chan, for me is one of the all time greats because he, you know, he took it completely to the next level and there and he did stuff that we're still doing now. But Chad and Dave, for me, were instrumental in opening the door. And hopefully that door gets torn off the hinges because in the mid 2000s, in the early 2000s, there was this wave of visual effects directors. were directing movies. And the difference between us and them not to knock them is they don't have a human experience when you're making a visual effects previous you're on a computer and the computer will do exactly what you tell it to do. Right now. Fast forward to me training Keanu or US training. Tom Hardy and warrior Joel Edgerton, and warrior or Charlize here on on on atomic blonde OS them, we're training them, we're trying to do this, we're directing them, we're making them badass, don't best way to fake being a badass is just to make them a badass, we're directing them, and we have their trust. So when we're on set, and someone says, Why don't want to stand over here, I want to stand over there. I'm like, I can adjust quickly. But that Visual Effects Director was like, Well, wait a minute, no, my you know, they don't know how it aired, the computer does exactly what they tell them to do. When they get the human effect. When the human effect comes in. It became very difficult for them. And also it's, it's the interfacing as a stunt coordinator, you're constantly interfacing with all the other departments. So you have this dialogue and this repertoire with everyone on the movie and production meetings go into their offices. So I know how to communicate with everyone. I have a relationship with pretty much every crew anywhere because I've filmed in 36 countries. So it's a huge advantage for us is action directors becoming directors because we have this film, not film school experience. But filmmaking experience, which is entirely different than theory, its execution. It's like fighting the guy that hits the bag all day. You don't know what he's gonna do when he gets punched in the face. But the guy that spars all day, he's reactive, and proactive and hyperactive, you know? So that's, that's my take on on action directing. That's my take on it.

Alex Ferrari 36:43
Well, it's kind of like Mike Tyson has everyone's got a plan to get punched in the face,

J.J. Perry 36:46
Amen, my brother.

Alex Ferrari 36:49
You can be as badass as you want. But so you get that first punch in the face. All that stuff goes out the window really quickly.

J.J. Perry 36:56
That's right.

Alex Ferrari 36:57
So man, I got a chance to watch your new film day shift brother. First of all, congratulations. When I saw it, I was just like, I was expecting great action. I got great action. And then as I was seeing some of the techniques in the movie, I was watching it and I'm like, Oh, this is all old school style in camera stuff like Yes. And then when I saw the contortionist vampires, I was like, Oh, yes, he did. Like, because then you can't be yes, that it's so many you could do visual effects to do that. But man, when you get a contortionist out there doing crazy stuff, it just brings such reality. So tell everybody what the movie is about. And then we'll get into the how you made it.

J.J. Perry 37:37
So the movies about a man that got out of the army a lot like me, gets trying to keep his family together. And you know, LA's a tough place to live brother, like when I got out of the army, I was not prepared for rent and insurance and etc, etc. So he's, he's a guy that that has a job cleaning pools, and he augments his his income by killing vampires and selling their teeth in an underground in an underground market of vampire hunters that extract vampire teeth and kill them. And what really attracted me to this, you know, I've been reading a lot of scripts, and I was super stoked just being a stunt coordinator and secondary director, making a ton of dough flying all over the world, smashing people with all my friends, and then getting on a plane and going somewhere else and doing it all over again. It was a big risk for me to step out and direct a film. So I was going to be very picky and I read a bunch of scripts. Oh, JJ, you were in the army. You should do a movie about PTSD. cybers I was like, No, man, the world's dark right now. You know, right now with COVID and a double feature of monkey pox and a triple feature of war in Ukraine, the Worldstar you can turn on the news right now and find 1000 reasons to want to turn it off. I when I saw when I read the script, Dacia It spoke to me immediately because big drum a little china Lost Boys Evil Dead. Fright Night from the 80s Action, Comedy horror. I don't have a message. There's no I'm not trying to tell anyone to do anything or change anyone's mind. I just want them to enjoy having those three elements Action, Comedy and horror. I always will have the upper hand on the audience. I can wow them with action. I can make them laugh with comedy, and I can make them jump with horror. So using those three tiers, those three elements of those three layers of attack, it was like triangulating my crossfire on the audience to keep them right where I wanted them. The script spoke to me because there's an underground world of vampires and an underground world of hunters that chase them which is just like John Wick, but so that's what they were coming I got a lot of John Wick ish scripts s scripts. I was like I did that man and I don't want to bite on what Chad and Keanu are doing now. People will always say like John Wick, you know, but this in the movie I made is not John Wick with vampires. It's definitely not I definitely wanted to get as far away from that as I could because I'd already worked on that and I don't want to. I want to give the bout to my bros it at 711 Chad and Dave, they did a great job of that. I don't want to bite on that. There's enough people doing it right now. I got a script. I got it from Sean and Yvette Yates from impossible dream. They brought it to me. They've been big, you know, advocates and then the guy Tyler Tice, who wrote it, Jim, me and him worked on it for about a year. I do we just put big action teeth on it, you know, BT. And then I made it the characters is familiar to me as possible, like big John's character was like my platoon sergeant in the Army buds wife is like my wife, my wife's an attorney. She's the mike tyson of our viewers. You know, so and Bud has a nine year old daughter, I have a nine year old daughter, so I try to make it relatable to me. So when the Thespians would ask me, I would be able to speak intelligently. And I'll be honest, the thing that really worried me more than anything, was the comedy. Yeah, cuz that's something Yeah. But I think I'm funny, but I don't know if anyone else fucking thinks I'm funny.

Alex Ferrari 40:53
So, Gary, Jake, having hairy Jamie Foxx Jamie Foxx is not

J.J. Perry 40:59
Getting Day Shift was a win. Getting Jamie Foxx was winning the water. Oh, so talented. Oh my God. What a G bro and inhuman Dave Franco together.

Alex Ferrari 41:10
Oh great. Great chemistry!

J.J. Perry 41:13
I worked on a movie called spy several years ago with it Paul Feig directed. I did the action for him. And I did some second unit for him. And I watched the I was I first saw, I was hoping this would happen from right when Chad and Dave finished John Wick. I started going to you know, read I'd ask directors when I'd get hired and be like, Hey, can I sit through read through so I wanted to be more a part of that to watch the decisions being made. I really paid attention to Paul on how he directed the action and he had these things posted notes. And he would have it was almost like an accordion a post it notes with bolts that he had scribbled down so when he would just let the camera roll and say oh I tried this or I try this and then he would say okay now run with it. So having Jamie and Dave Franco in the comedy bro just let the cameras roll and let them just have at it so you know I I think you know Jamie for me was the biggest winner of all you know getting movies huge thank you Netflix Thank you Chester house from Greenland. Thank you impossible dream for bring it to me thank you Tom for writing in Jamie Foxx I will forever owe a debt of gratitude and all we always be a good program because that was him showing up to do my movie was such a massive thing for me.

Alex Ferrari 42:28
Now with you know, a lot of second unit directors don't get the shot because a lot of them stay a second unit directors for their career. And like you said, I can have fun I can go out I'm working on big budgets I'm having this fun for fun. So when I saw that, you know when I went in and started to research it I was like oh this is his first shot like this is this is not a normal scenario because a lot of times actually second unit directors no action, but they have no idea how to deal with actors like on a on a watch McCall on like a dialogue state or how to carry character arcs and things like that. It's a little tougher to do that. But when I saw what you does, like man, I'm interested to see how he does and I was like man, he held it together man like the whole story was well put together. There's some beautiful easter eggs for someone of my my vintage to to grab on to some some loss boy lines. Well give it away. I was like, I was like nice. So some some nice little easter eggs along the way. But it was just it was just it was just well done. It was really well done. And I was telling you earlier before we get started with the color of it looks great that the the you could feel how hot it is. During you could feel like it Valley. And then that since I'm from the valley. I was just I was just like, I was from the valley. I was just like it up. Oh, they're deep in the valley over there. There. That's not Burbank. Nope, that's so it was fun. Oh, it's always fun for me when they shoot something in LA. They're like, yep, been there. Yep. I know where that is. Yeah.

J.J. Perry 44:00
So you know, Brother, listen, when I got out of the Army, it kind of was like that I moved to the valley first I lived in the back of a taekwondo school for a while and when I got made my first bit of money, I moved to the valley and you have to that's the trajectory I think you need to move to the valley to move down by the airport when you first get here and you don't have any money. Then you make your way over the hill which will be night shift part two will be in Hollywood or you know we'll be in Hollywood maybe next time. But that was the trajectory and one of the things that I remember about the valley when I first got there was being from Texas. It's hot and humid but the colors in the valley that orange and listing total disclosure, I am completely colorblind, the worst colorblind you can be but that orange for me really resonates in the opening of diehard when the plane lands, the orange sun, that setting when the plane lands. That's what I showed Toby Oliver, when I said I need your help with this because I want the interiors to feel cold like vampires would be there you can almost feel the breath. But when you're outside it should be hot and sticky and light Like the valley, you know what you hear? That's the water the water watering things are the you're gonna disturb the cicadas, you know you all of that, that I wanted to get bring that to the movie. So yeah, that was part of it for me and Toby Oliver is a gem. You know, when we shot the movie in 42 days with no second unit, which is a very short shoot for a movie of that size. And we didn't have a lot of time we shot 31 Days in Atlanta and 11 days in LA. So I was scared all my interiors in Atlanta and a few exteriors. So what I did in LA what all of my establishing shots of LA, I would do these big drone, handoffs, big drone shot showing the valley, then we'd have certain operator catch the drone, we hit a button, the drone would fly off, and then we follow our actors into wherever they were going. So I really close the valley because I wanted to, and I think the valley is hot, sweaty, sexy, cool, exotic, trippy, you know, you can smell the different flavors of food in the air, you can hear seven different languages being spoken, it was this mystical place when I moved there being from South Texas, you know, like the valley, you know, like what a trip. So that was part of it for me is to show how exotic the valley was. So there you go.

Alex Ferrari 46:13
So, you know, as a director, you know, and I'm sure you've had this happen on other projects as well. There's always that one day that the whole worlds come crashing down around you. You like oh my god, we're not going to make it. We're not going to make the day we're not going to make the shot. But something's going to happen. And it's generally every day we have every every day, there's a moment of that. But generally, on this project, was there one day that stands out that you're just like, I feel like security's gonna come and take me away.

J.J. Perry 46:39
No, no, but there's a moment I'll tell you. It's funny. So I was never afraid of the action at all ever. And my first ad His name is Bill Clark, I call him Wild Bill. He's Quentin Tarantino is first lady's dear friend, the scene where the vampires come to get. But in his wife, it's the very end of the movie when they they leave South and they take his wife and daughter. Bill comes to me the night before when we were wrapping up, he goes, you know, you got seven and a half pages of dialogue tomorrow. And I was a young girl. And I didn't know what that meant. You know, a lot of time he goes, Hey, Bubba, you got seven and a half pages of dialogue tomorrow. And I was like, Cool, great. He goes, he just kind of pulled me you know, he's like, Hey, so let's talk about this. So it didn't really dawn on me till about four o'clock in the afternoon, when I was better pay better attention to that. But you know, at the end of the day, we ended up getting that right, we had we had, you know, it's because the cast was so great. And everyone, no one went back to their trailers. Everybody hung out on set, we're playing music between setups, you know, everybody was having a good time, I wanted to keep the set light, like I keep my second unit light key there Metallica or Stevie Ray Vaughn, between setups or you know, dealer's choice to get a new DJ. And we had Jamie with his boombox. And we had, you know, taco truck here and there and coffee trucks. So it ended up working out all right. And it was my ignorance that saved me, because I wasn't afraid you don't you're not afraid of what you don't know until you know it right? Of course. And then it kind of worked out. And bill at the end of that day when Whoa, you said that was almost like having a baby. And I was like, Well, I can't speak on that yet. But I can tell you now I know what seven and a half pages mean. So

Alex Ferrari 48:18
Seven and a half pages is a lot of dialogue, man. I mean, unless you're doing unless you're doing master shot theater, then it's cool. You can knock that out in 30 minutes. But if you're doing what, you know, a normal setup, man, that's a lot of dials.

J.J. Perry 48:30
There were nine people in the room too. So there's a lot of coverage, you knows a lot of coverage. And also you had to not, we had to be careful not to shoot the mirror because the vampires are invisible in the mirrors. And I didn't have a huge visual effects budget on the movie. So I had to be very conscious of everything I was doing.

Alex Ferrari 48:45
Right? No, exactly. And how many cameras did you shoot with?

J.J. Perry 48:49
Generally, when we were doing all of it, when we were doing all the dialogue, always three cameras, I always run three cameras. And then when we were doing the car chase, I was running seven cameras, because we didn't I mean, it wasn't like I said it wasn't we didn't have a lot of time. And it wasn't a fast and furious budget or you know, a gray man budget. But it was it wasn't a little budget either. They were very generous with me. So I just because of second unit, I know how to budget my time really, really well. When it comes to action. I just know this is gonna work. This is gonna work. I gotta do this. Okay, so I can make a change here. We can not cut here and go here. I know how to I know how to run the table. I know how to play shoot that I knew how to clean the table to run that eight ball. But um,

Alex Ferrari 49:26
So what was the biggest challenge you had on this project? Since I mean, since it's your first full feature? You've done tons a second. What was the biggest

J.J. Perry 49:34
Hardest part for me was getting the opportunity to do it, bro. You know, to be honest, I was gonna have to do that, by the way. Well, you know, like when John and Yvette brought it to me, and we worked on it for a year I was doing Fast and Furious eight in London. Chad was in London with Keanu promoting John Wick three. Now I had shot the first sequence with the old lady as a stump is and I've done a vampire genogram different species and I don't use sizzle reels and a lookbook. So we're out partying at the Gaucho room with Keanu and Chad celebrating the release of their movie. John Wick three wasn't hanging out with him. In about four in the morning, Chad leans over and he goes, Hey, man, I'm probably going to get some sort of post first look, deal. Do you have anything? And I was like, funny you should mention that. I slid it you know, I didn't slide it across the table. But I texted I emailed it to him. And I knew he was flying back to LA the next day. And at 6am when he was in the car on the way to the Heathrow. I texted him, I said, Hey, give that thing a look while you're on the plane. He landed in LA and he by the time he landed, he calls me he's going to make this move. And literally, two weeks later, we're in meetings to make this movie and it was happening. So COVID Hit which put it on a hold. So the trajectory was shattered. But Yeates as Sean Reddick and Yvette Yates from posturing, give me the script. Get behind me. Tyler Tyson, I work on it for about a year together. Chance to house he sees it gets excited about it walks it in Netflix, or a mom or Taylor Z. Get excited about it about the package of Chad and this movie and myself. Jamie Foxx comes on board and it turns into like a holy shit, it's going to be massive. And here we are. It's all in the past. Now it's all in all behind us. So that's kind of the way it happened. And it happened really fast. We shot it really fast. I had the one of the best times I've ever had prepping and shooting the movie, the only place that I was not aware of was post production. Because 32 years of prepping movies and shooting movies. You never like I've been in the editing room a couple of times with directors cutting together because I always when I shoot second unit, I cut while I'm shooting and I deliver it. So I shoot a stump is for proofing proof of concept. Then when I'm shooting what I shoot, I shoot and cut the footage off of the TTI key and hand it to them and say proof of execution. You don't have to cut it this way you cut it any way you want to. But this was my version of your vision. And now it's locked in now it's done. If you want to give it to your editors, as a roadmap, do whatever you like, but here it is. So all that being said, prepping the movie shooting, it was such a PCK going into post production, I'd already cut all of the action while we were shooting. So theoretically, a third of the movie was cut already when we get to posts. So watching the whole process of post I learned so much in post about what I don't need to do. And I'll tell you like all those shots of the techno crane passing over the pool that follows the feet up and close to the door and a lens flare hidden from the sun. That 45 second shot. My cinematic my Kurosawa shots all gone dog. Oh, yep. So I learned so much about what I don't need to do that I would tell you confidently as a 54 year old budding filmmaker, that my sophomore effort will be infinitely better than my freshman efforts.

Alex Ferrari 53:03
Wow, that's such a man. It's so true. Because even look so it's so funny. They say that man because you've been in the biz man for you know, decades. At this point, you've shot so much work at the highest levels. And yet you fell into the same trap that first time directors fall into like, let's make this one shot here. And then we'll do the Goodfellas shot through the through the kitchen and all that stuff. And I remember Kurosawa, that Kubrick thing will do that. And it's and you you fall into that and you realize, when you get in the cutting room, like I said, it just stops the entire movie, you can't do that.

J.J. Perry 53:36
It went like this. So the action was cut. We watched the movie, for the first time, probably three, two and a half or three weeks in, we just put all the reels together. And the movie came in at two hours and 43 minutes. So I looked at it and I was like, Wow, alright, cool. So I want to listen, I never wanted anyone I was very conscious of this, because I'm always watching. I made this movie for our generation Gen X, but I also made it for the millennials and the Gen X Gen Y and Gen Z hence, but in Seth, counterparts that difference and I'll get into that in a minute remind me to talk to you about why that was inspired from but that was easy. It was easy for me because I didn't want my movie to feel long. I wanted it to be easy to watch because you listen I'm not gonna say any I'm not going to call any movies out. But there's a lot of movies now that I watch that are hard, like I love them but they get become like I'm sitting now I'm aware that they're fat, making dayshift for not for the small screen for being seven or 10 feet away from your big screen TV from your sofa. You're sitting four feet high. Looking at your screen. That's in my mind. That was the movie I was making. I was not shooting it for a theater because it was you know, Netflix is a small screen and but it's big screen ambitions on the small screen. So in saying that it was very easy for me. Once I cut that first part of my finger off, I let that long shot Go, it became easy for me to see it is just it 54 In all those years of experience comes in wisdom. Like, I know I have to, I have to sift some of this out. So I let it go quickly. You know, like, Listen, I'll be honest with you. It's not. It's not. It's not Shakespeare. And if you weren't Shakespeare, they wouldn't be hiring me, bro. They wouldn't hire a caveman like me. It has to be fast and fun. And something has to happen. And I don't want anyone to feel like okay, I'm waiting now and what's going on? I don't want them looking at their Instagram. So that was kind of the the full film filmmaking experience that I wanted to create is something that was scary, acne funny, and easy to watch.

Alex Ferrari 55:43
And it's exactly like that's not a movie that can be two hours and 45 minutes like that story. It's not that story. So it's just not but it's it needs to be fast and tight and quick, and you'd fun. And that's the kind of thing you know, you're not making Braveheart. You know, which is what you need three hours to tell that story. And it's it okay to do that. And honestly, I don't know if Braveheart gets made today. And that's no,

J.J. Perry 56:06
I'm a huge I used to double Mel Gibson strangely, and I'm a huge fan. I think he's one of the best filmmakers. Ah, alright, you know, like, listen, I used to be a stone Golem. Huge fan, bro.

Alex Ferrari 56:19
Apocalypto. Oh, god, it's brilliant film.

J.J. Perry 56:23
The 250 millimeter lens on my set is called the Mel Gibson because he always has a camera on a 250. And he always he told me goes, Hey, kid, you want to see what's going on in there? Put the 250 and reach in there and get them you can see what they're thinking, bro. So I always use that 250 But I couldn't get the Mel Gibson out guys when I was thinking that moment, you know, so? Yes, you're right. It's not and they probably will make a Braveheart but kudos to Mel for making it in.

Alex Ferrari 56:50
Yeah, when when they could. And you told me to ask you about the generational thing.

J.J. Perry 56:54
So yes, I'm on the road as a stunt coordinator, sacking director with all of these Apex stunt performers and stunt coordinators that work with me for the last we've done we've been on the road with the same guys for about eight or nine years at 711 stunts unlimited I hire within my team, Justin you, Troy Robinson, Mike Leia, my bros, but they're, except for Troy. Those other guys and females and girls that are in my group are all millennials and Gen X and Jim why like parkour champions world kung fu champion, car drifting champion trip motorcycle champion, but they're all kids. And I love them. But I don't know what the fuck they're talking about half the time, dude. And we all love each other and laugh at each other. But it's, it's that awkward thing that I wanted that I experienced on the road with my teammates that I love. And we spent time together and we hang out and watch him in May and go to the movies and do functions and stuff together and risk our lives together and make a bunch of dough together. But when I listen to them talk about things I'm like, fuck are they talking about? That's exactly what I wanted to portray that dynamic between blood and Seth in my movie. Like there's the generation that gets their knowledge from this. Right? They get their phone and it's Google. You and me. I'm 54 and we're probably eugenics.

Alex Ferrari 58:11
I'm not I'm not too far away from you, sir.

J.J. Perry 58:13
So you know, we were kids. If you wanted to learn something, you have to go there and learn it

Alex Ferrari 58:17
Until you library library photocopy when

J.J. Perry 58:21
I joined the Army, because I was a junior national taekwondo champion, so I could go boot get stationed in Korea, so I could fight the best in the world. So I committed four years of my life to the army just for taekwondo just so I could go there and fight and train. So I know the way the gym smells at chumps. Shil I know the way the gym smells in Thailand and lupini stadium, I know the way that Buddha con, the floor feels when you walk on it. Kids that learn on it on this, they don't know that they're getting the knowledge without actually earning it, which comes without the wisdom of learning. No, not knocking my younger brothers and sisters because I have a huge admiration for them. And we can learn a lot from them as well. But that for me the practical application versus the quicker knowledge is another thing that I wanted to portray in my movie.

Alex Ferrari 59:10
And if I if I can get up on my old man soapbox. The difference is that our generation is I call us the bridge generation. Because we were at a time when we understood pre internet, pre technology. I don't know about you. But I remember a time when there was no remotes. I was I was the remote from my grandfather. He's like get up and change the channel. And you would go like that stuff. I showed my daughters of rotary phone the other day and their minds just exploded. They just couldn't understand. And I go Yeah, and on. On the on the seventh number. If you mess it up, you got to start over. All these history, but so we know that part of of technology and history and society. But then we also were around when the internet was born. That's right. So, so we have feet and both both generous as opposed to like my daughters. They don't know anything different. You know, and the millennials they don't know a world without this kind of stuff. So it's a different different way of looking at

J.J. Perry 1:00:14
things the internet crashes we would go back to the Thomas guide in a hot minute, but they wouldn't maybe not no deal with that in coins for the for the phones, you remember. I remember the pager when I was a kid, a pager Well, church and the pastor said, Hey, you better get that it might be God page. And he told him, my mom, my grandma. Good Doctor, he must mean doctor.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:38
When is that? So when is Day Shift coming out man?

J.J. Perry 1:00:41
August 12. It drops we are. I'm super excited like all my other director friends that do this is the worst time for you because you don't know. And I was like, Pablo, for me not knowing is the bliss of not knowing. For me, it's awesome. Because I feel like I did everything I could to make it as good as I can. I had a great time doing it. I had a great partner and my cast and my shooting crew and my production producers and Netflix. I'm just super stoked to get it out there and let it let the ship sail and let's see how far it goes.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:09
And the thing I also love about what you're doing, man is like you just made your first feature, but you're still you're still hustling on an out there as a second unit and you're still working. You don't stop man, I saw your IMDB and you're like Nah, man. I'm keep. You're not like I'm a director now I only direct No, no, no, no.

J.J. Perry 1:01:24
I'm working as a stunt man next week, too. So this is how it goes for me brother. Just so you know, like, I learned all my lessons in life. I didn't go to college, I learned my lessons in life in the dojo in in the army. And my master said something to me when I was 11 years old. He said if you want to be a fighter, you have to go fight. Fighting is a perishable skill. Directing in my opinion, for me is a perishable skill. If you're not out there doing it all the time, you know, it's you're not reactive, or proactive, you become reactive, you got to be proactive, you got to be in front of the wave all the time. So I'm constantly just I just got back from doing a movie for Warner Brothers called Blue Beetle, did murder mystery to for Netflix getting ready to do back in action for Netflix. Like I'm just I want to keep myself directing action. And hopefully, my movie goes well, and they give they give this old cowboy another shot at the title baby. I'm ready. Ring the bell.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:13
Now, bro, I'm gonna ask you a few questions. I asked all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

J.J. Perry 1:02:21
Believe in yourself and be as good as you can be be the best version of yourself. Because when opportunity comes, you might not get another shot at it. It comes when it comes in, you can make your fate in certain ways. But you think like for my example, it took me 32 years to get a directing job. You know, so I was when my moment came, I was absolutely ready. I had a script that I loved and was passionate about. I knew what that set was going to smell like before I got there. And this is coming from a dyslexic colorblind guy that never went to college, you know. And so if you get the opportunity, you have to make the most of that opportunity. And don't take anything for granted and learn as much as you can about all the other departments.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:03
What did you What did you learn from your biggest failure?

J.J. Perry 1:03:08
Yeah, I've taken a bath a few times. You know, it's tough love, especially when you get out of the army. The army prepares you for certain things, but it doesn't necessarily prepare you for what to do when you get out always, especially in in the late 80s, early 90s. I got out in 1990. So it was hard for me to because I didn't know many people I didn't know anyone in LA except for one or two people. Like I slept on the floor of a karate school for a long time. You know, it was very, like, there was no room for error. Like if I didn't make money, I was definitely going to be back in the army. So, you know, but la strangely was, you know, a place at the time and even now I'm you know, I love this place. It's a trip, you know, but the weather in the place I fell in love with it the first time I saw it, you know, back in 1988 while I was driving to Fort Ord, you know, like when I drove through LA so that's probably the biggest lessons came from you know, like just learning how to apply the work ethic that I learned in the military and for martial arts in how to monetize that and make make it make me able to survive in the real world.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:06
Three of your favorite films of all time. Oh, whatever comes to mind, brother, but it won't be on your tombstone.

J.J. Perry 1:04:15
When police story and armor of God are tied is action grace you have to I have to mention Enter the Dragon Armor of God and police story so the Terminator and Rocky the first rock in the first Terminator because the first Terminator for me was the story was like I remember I remember sitting in the theater. It was in I was in downtown Houston. Yes probably stone with my buddies and we were like remember the first hang on I remember the first time when you saw Star Wars and when they went to hyperspeed remember that first love Yeah, sure, man. Yeah, yeah, that's it. So that was kind of Terminator for me and Rocky was such an inspiration as well, you know? So I would say I it's hard for me to say three but I would go please story. armor of God rocky Terminator. And yeah, any one of those three for me with those in you like for entertainment like we did it doesn't have action. But strangely, Forrest Gump was such a feel good movie.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:17
Movie. Yeah. Awesome. Now, one last question, man, because you you mentioned Terminator, you've gotten a chance to work with Jim.

J.J. Perry 1:05:25
I have him as well. I go to the gun range with him as well. Sometimes he she's so.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:32
So what is it like walking on the set of a Jim Cameron movie for the first time. And you're like, Dude, that's terminate, like, like, you have to Geek do geek out every once in a while. I mean, at this point, you've worked with so many. But that first time,

J.J. Perry 1:05:46
The first time I walked on the set prep, we did prep work on the first Avatar and while we when I went in at lunch, they were using this new that new technology where it was real time, Genesis, Garrett Warren, my friend was the stunt coordinator, Peter Jackson, and Steven Spielberg, were there with Jim. So it was like this triple geek out moment where, like, we you know, like, so Garrett walked in front of them. And I snapped a picture, just they were eating, and he didn't want to bother him. But he walked in front of them and stopped. And I clicked a picture for you know, you know, when Jim James Cameron is coming to work, you can hear the helicopter landing. That's when he shows up for work. That's how he comes to work from his place. He's a G Man, like, for me, that generation of filmmakers. Yeah, there's nothing to make the movies in camera, you know, and then went with the wave to technology, even Angley is another example that I've done a bunch with Angley. He's another one that's, you know, practical filmmaker that went all the way into checklist. All of those guys are epic. And if we've seen any fathers filmmakers, because we stood on the shoulders of giants like those men.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:57
Absolutely. No question. J.J man, it has been an absolute pleasure and honor talking to you and geeking out with you, brother. It is I hope, I hope somebody learns a little bit from our conversation here and there's a lot of gems in this woman, but congratulations on your success and your career on your new movie. And I hope man, I hope they give you the keys again, brother. I really look forward to see what else you do, man.

J.J. Perry 1:07:18
Thank you, brother. I appreciate you.

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Jambox.io – Royalty Free Music for Indie Films – 20% OFF (Coupon Code: HUSTLE20)
  2. Need Distribution for Your Film? – Check This Out!
  3. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  4. Audible – Get a Free Filmmaking or Screenwriting Audiobook

IFH 603: How Indie Film Super Troopers Made Millions with Jay Chandrasekhar

Today on the show we have director, writer, comedian, and actor Jay Chandrasekhar has contributed to and appeared in a wide variety of critically acclaimed television programs and films throughout his career.

Chandrasekhar assembled the sketch comedy troupe Broken Lizard, which includes Kevin Heffernan, Steve Lemme, Paul Soter, and Erik Stolhanske. Together they performed comedy across the nation until they set their sights on producing television and feature films.

Under his Broken Lizard banner, Jay directed and co-wrote Fox Searchlight Picture’s comedy cult classics Super Troopers, Super Troopers 2, Club Dread, and Warner Bros’ Beerfest. He also directed the Broken Lizard comedy special, Broken Lizard Stands Up.

Super Troopers hit theaters in February 2002 and went on to gross $23 million with glowing audience reviews (and $80 million on home video.)

Jay continued on to direct The Dukes of Hazard, direct and star in Millennium Entertainment’s The Babymakers, and appear in DreamWorks’ comedy hit, I Love You, Man. Recently, Chandrasekhar published his book, Mustache Shenanigans: Making Super Troopers and Other Adventures in Comedy that gives a behind the scenes look at the making of Super Troopers.

In addition to his feature film work, Chandrasekhar has directed various TV shows, including several episodes of the Emmy Award winning series Arrested Development, Community, Chuck, The Grinder, Up All Night, Happy Endings, New Girl, and Psych. More recently, Jay has also directed episodes of Fresh Off the Boat, The Goldbergs, Speechless, and Schooled.

His new film is Easter Sunday.

Stand-up comedy sensation Jo Koy (Jo Koy: In His Elements, Jo Koy: Comin’ in Hot) stars as a man returning home for an Easter celebration with his riotous, bickering, eating, drinking, laughing, loving family, in this love letter to his Filipino-American community. Easter Sunday features an all-star comedic cast that includes Jimmy O. Yang (Silicon Valley series), Tia Carrere (True Lies, Wayne’s World films), Brandon Wardell (Curb Your Enthusiasm series), Tony nominee Eva Noblezada (Broadway’s Hadestown), Lydia Gaston (Broadway’s The King and I), Asif Ali (WandaVision), Rodney To (Parks and Recreation series), Eugene Cordero (The Good Place series), Jay Chandrasekhar (I Love You, Man), Tiffany Haddish (Girls Trip) and Lou Diamond Phillips (Courage Under Fire).  

Easter Sunday, from DreamWorks Pictures, is directed by Jay Chandrasekhar (Super Troopers, The Dukes of Hazzard), from a script by Ken Cheng (series Wilfred, Betas). The film is produced by Rideback’s Dan Lin (The Lego Movie franchise, It franchise) and Jonathan Eirich (Aladdin, The Two Popes), and is executive produced by Jo Koy, Jessica Gao, Jimmy O. Yang, Ken Cheng, Joe Meloche, Nick Reynolds and Seth William Meier. The film will be distributed by Universal Pictures domestically. Amblin Partners and Universal will share international distribution rights.

Jay also just launched a new app designed to give the power of reviews back to the people. It’s call Vouch Vault.

“When my film, Super Troopers, showed at Sundance, it played to big laughing crowds. But when it was released to the public, the reviews were only so-so. On Rotten Tomatoes, Super Troopers, got a 38%-fresh aggregate score from less than a hundred reviewers. With the public, though, the film garnered a 90% fresh rating from more than 250,000 non-reviewers. This 38% reviewer-number stuck in my craw. I remember thinking, “Who are these reviewers, these strangers with outsized power, and why are we listening to them? Seriously. When’s the last time you walked up to a stranger and said, “Hey, what movie should I see?”

Our goal with Vouch Vault is to take recommendation power from anonymous strangers and give it to the people whose tastes you know and trust.”

You can download the new app here: Vouch Vault.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Jay Chandrasekhar 0:00
As the human mind works at a much faster rate than you think it does, and so you can pull things out and tighten it tighten and tighten. And the tighter you get. Often the closer to the rhythm you even imagined was and you're trying to lock into a rhythm with the audience.

Alex Ferrari 0:15
This episode is brought to you by the best selling book Rise of the Filmtrepreneur how to turn your independent film into a money making business. Learn more at filmbizbook.com. I'd like to welcome to the show Jay Chandrasekhar. How're you doing Jay?

Jay Chandrasekhar 0:31
I'm doing great. How are you?

Alex Ferrari 0:33
I'm doing great, man. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Man. I've been a fan of yours, brother since since I can't even tell you when spac obviously some Super Troopers came out. I pissed myself and continue to piss myself every single time I watch it. So I appreciate you guys making that.

Jay Chandrasekhar 0:49
Maximum reaction we are always hoping for.

Alex Ferrari 0:54
So I wanted you on the show, man because, you know, Super Troopers and the sequel and many of the other films you've made. I mean, specifically Super Troopers was kind of like this. In the you know, it's kind of like the beginning. Again, if you remember the 90s it was like every week there was a new El Mariachi or brothers mall in or clerks, brothers broken losers was that for the early 2000s is one of those films that kind of just came out of nowhere from you know, group of filmmakers who really nobody knew and exploded on the scene. So before we get into that, how did you get started? Why did you want to get started in this insanity? That is the film industry?

Jay Chandrasekhar 1:29
Well, I was an actor and in high school and college. Almost not an actor I've my sister was, I was kinda like, little lost in high school my freshman year. And my sister was like, why don't you just get in the play? It's super fun. You make a lot of friends. And I'm like a play. I don't know, like, what am I going to do? Like act? And she goes, be like an extra be in the chorus or something. I'm like, Alright, so I auditioned for a play to get in the chorus. I guess. I didn't make it. And I'm like, I was like, wow, I didn't make it. And so the next time they put up a play auditioned again, and I got into the head, a couple lines. And it was really, it was rejection that made me dive back in the second time. I'm like, How dare you? And once I started doing it, I thought, Okay, this is incredible. This is really fun. I was so and I became like, kind of that one of the main guys in the in the theater group in high school. And then in college, I started the lead in place. And then I looked at the television and movie screens. It was in the late 80s. And I was like, hey, there are no Indians on there. I mean, the Ben Kingsley was the one Indian and and they they weren't going to make it Gandhi too. Right? So I was like, well, when they wanted Indians, they put you know, white guys in brown face and these guys did this hilarious accents. I thought like Fisher Stevens and

Alex Ferrari 3:01
Wow, yeah, yeah, that did that does that age well at all? It's a short circuit.

Jay Chandrasekhar 3:05
It's funny, short circuit. My dad told me he goes he goes you have to see short circuit. And I said why? Because they didn't Indian in it. And I'm like, that's not a real Indian. He goes, where does this closest we'll get.

Alex Ferrari 3:19
Look, I'm Cuban and Scarface. I mean, so there you go.

Jay Chandrasekhar 3:25
That's such a good foot. Peter Sellars played a good Indian in the party. I thought I thought he did a nice job. But, you know, like, Indians were showing up but they were the guys who are selling Brad Pitt the pack of cigarettes before he went over and hooked up with cheddar friends or whoever, right? Oh, it'd be the guy would have picked up whichever is. So I decided in college. I started a comedy groups. You know, because I was. I don't know, I don't know how much of this you want. But anyway, I was in college as a junior and I decided I'm going to try to make it and show business. And I said the way I'm going to do it is I can make my friends laugh, no problems. But can I make strangers laugh? And so I moved to Chicago, which is where I'm from. And I spent the summer in Chicago and then I took a semester off college and I went to college in Chicago got credits there, and I immersed myself in the improv comedy world. And I got involved in this thing called the Improv Olympic. And Chris Farley was the top guy at the time and Dave keckler. And they would go see their shows or improv shows, and they were incredible. Like, just like it was like magic. It was he couldn't believe how funny he was. And then I would go do my improv shows with my group, which was like eight beginners, and we would get almost no laughs I mean, I don't know if we got any laughs And I thought, well, wow, that's really failing the test of this. Can I make strangers laugh? So I decided I'd better go cross down and write some stand up. And so I went down an open mic and I did five minutes of stand up and I got laughs and I was like, okay, okay, I passed that test, I'm going to do it. And so I got back to Colgate. And there was an opportunity to start a comedy group. It was basically like, Hey, you want to direct a 1x? And I said, instead, I'll start a comedy group. And so I went around and getting look Magnificent Seven, I gathered all the funniest people I knew. And I put them in a room and I said, Here's, hey, we do improv. And I'm like, now I'm like this worst improv improviser in Chicago, teaching seven other people how to improvise. And it just didn't go anywhere. First of all, we had no the audience. So we were like, Is that funny? I don't know. Is that funny? I don't know. And then we're like, you know what, we're all history majors and English majors. This is right sketch. That's you Saturday live, we can do that. And so we started writing sketches. And one of the guys who I hired was from Los Angeles freshman, and he goes, I really pretty good with this camera. It's like, okay, well, like Santa Claus. We should share video. So we started shooting short videos, and we put on a show and the first night about 30 people showed up. And but it was a good show, I thought and the next night, it was 400. And you couldn't get enough seats it. And the next night was sold out in the next night was sold out. We're like, oh my god, this thing is really caught on. And so we did another show them, we moved to New York, and we reformed his broken lizard. And that was 1990. And I'm watching what was happening in the film business. And I'm like, so all these, like, just Kevin Smith, who's any person what's going on with that guy, Rick Linklater. And I'm like, you know, maybe the only way I'm gonna get because still, there are no Indians on screen. And I'm like, maybe the only way I can get into a movie would be if I wrote it myself. So we wrote a movie together. And then I'm like, you know, we had an experience of Comedy Central with another director who directed us. And I'm like, it didn't really feel right. until like, maybe I should learn how to direct. So that, and I've been directing all these little short films for broken lizard. So I kind of had a leg up. And so we raised money, and we made a half an hour film, and then we raised more money, and we made puddle cruiser, which got into Sundance. And it was just us, me and my friends in the movie. And that group, obviously, then went on to make Super Troopers. And you know,

Alex Ferrari 7:13
And the rest, as they say, is history. It's funny that you say like, you were looking at the 90s. And for people who listen to this show that many of them are younger, who does understand what the 90s and independent film was, it was the first time you really saw the technology is so cheap, and the opportunity for the festivals and Sundance and that Sundance decade, to blow up, you know, filmmakers, there was just a window of about 10 years really, that you could do that that gave you the inspiration to go. I think I could do this. Because if, if, if Kevin Smith made clerks for $27,000, and it's funny as hell, good writing and everything. Wow, what can I do that I'm funny? Similar, same idea?

Jay Chandrasekhar 7:51
That's exactly right. It's very much like if that guy can do it. I mean, it was very much like that. And, and it was, No, the truth is the, you know, the landscape was littered with the bones of filmmakers who didn't make it.

Alex Ferrari 8:06
Oh, and still are, sir.

Jay Chandrasekhar 8:10
But, but we, you know, I've always been some, like, like cocky to the point of stupid,

Alex Ferrari 8:20
Which has to be you have to be

Jay Chandrasekhar 8:23
Attempt to write and direct your own film and shove yourself into Milan. And help.

Alex Ferrari 8:30
Which, which, which. So you made your short film, which was Super Troopers. It was called Super Troopers Three?

Jay Chandrasekhar 8:35
No, no, the first No, the first fish called the tinfoil monkey agenda.

Alex Ferrari 8:41
Oh, fantastic. Name. Fantastic. Fantastic.

Jay Chandrasekhar 8:46
The second the first feature film was called puddle cruiser right. took place at Colgate. And then the the film after that was Super Troopers. One I'm writing Super Troopers three right now,

Alex Ferrari 8:57
When I was so so puddle cruiser. So that was kind of like your clerks. That was the that was your that was going to be that first film that was going to like, and you got to Sundance, which is a huge.

Jay Chandrasekhar 9:09
And Harvey Weinstein saw it and was, you know, tested it and it tested it tested well, but he didn't end up buying it. And he's like, I want to make it into a TV show. Because he just had a deal with ABC. So he's like, you gotta make it a TV show. And then we ended up making it into a TV show with another company and another guy but but we came like inches from being purchased by Miramax just didn't. He wasn't in the room at the right time.

Alex Ferrari 9:44
Fair enough. Fair enough. Now on when you made panel cruisers, I mean, that's the first time you made a narrative feature face you know, as a director, what was the biggest lesson you learned on the directing side making that first feature?

Jay Chandrasekhar 9:55
Well, you know, the thing about A comedy is it's all about rhythm and timing. And if you watch those, you know, I keep mentioning canceled people. But if you'd like to Woody Allen's great work, he'll have three minute takes where the actors are creating his comedic rhythm. And I'm sure he's telling it faster, faster, faster, faster. And he had his he has it taken one of his phones or two people are arguing in the living room, they walk into the kitchen, the camera just points the kitchen while they keep arguing that they walked back after about a minute of arguing in the kitchen. And the reason it works is because the rhythm, right. And so I always had a sense. I mean, I don't know, it may be if you're a comic, you know that it's all about really. And I was like, I think this movie is going to work based on the rhythm we've written into the script. And I don't know. And so we would shoot these scenes. And I'm like, Yeah, that's feels right. This sounds right, right. And then we cut it all together. I'm like, yeah, yeah, there it is. But But what we learned most is that there's so much extra stuff, and space that you need to eat, because the human mind works at a much faster rate than you think it does. And so you can pull things out and tighten it tighten and tighten. And the tighter you get, often the closer to the rhythm you even imagined was and you're trying to lock into a rhythm with the audience. And we were able to do that. So you know, what it taught me is that we couldn't we can do it. Making

Alex Ferrari 11:30
Which is, which is a very important thing, which gave you the confidence to make Super Troopers, which was a slightly larger budget.

Jay Chandrasekhar 11:38
It was 1.1 million.

Alex Ferrari 11:40
How did you get that? How did you get that movie? Money?

Jay Chandrasekhar 11:42
Well, we just asked everybody in Hollywood, and they all said no. And we were like, no, no, we're the pokers. Guys. They're like, yeah, where Joe was sold to Harvey Weinstein, but

Alex Ferrari 11:53
Almost

Jay Chandrasekhar 11:58
You know, we, we, we went to so many different people. And they were like, so let me get the stripe. You guys are the cops. Like, nobody knows who you are. You know, one guy is like, I'll give you the money. But we put Ben Affleck and as the role of authority. I'm friends with them. They'll do it. And I'm like, no, no, I'll play that part. Because good luck with that. And then we and we would we went from place to you know, we were repped at CAA at the time. And they introduced us to all their finance ears. And they interested in this and we got close again, we'd like the we were friends with the Zucker brothers so that they introduced us to the Farrelly brothers and the Farrelly brothers tried to get a made of Fox and they were like we just the studio won't. Because you guys, they just won't do it. And we went with Bob Simons, who was producing a lot of Adam Sandler films and he goes, I'm doing it. We're doing it for 5 million. I'm like, great. And then Bob couldn't get paid the amount he wanted to get paid in the budget. And so he's like, sorry, guys, I can't do it. And I'm like, Oh, okay so then.

Alex Ferrari 13:05
God just all this back and forth. I love people hearing and hearing the stories because it's like, oh, you know, one day you get into Sundance next day, you make broken lizards in the money just comes rolling in. Like, that's not the way it works.

Jay Chandrasekhar 13:18
So then we ended up a friend of ours was George Clooney as assistant. We moved to LA right. And we're like, we were hanging out with her. We're partying with her. We're you know, doing ecstasy. I don't know. Anyway, whatever we're having, but and we were sleeping at George Clooney his house because she was he was off making the peacemaker, I think, and we were, she was alone. And she's like, I can't sleep in this house alone. There are all these paparazzi in the woods. And we're like, okay, so we moved in there for a month. And we

Alex Ferrari 13:53
Does George know this?

Jay Chandrasekhar 13:57
Robes around the slippers and we go feed his pigs. Thanks. That's right. And we had a bomb. And when he got home, he's like, you know, introduce me to these knuckleheads are sleeping in my house. So we met him and he goes, What are you guys trying to do? And we're like, well, we're trying to do this movie and he read it and he goes, this is a great movie, I'll participate. And I was like, Alright, okay, so that was how we're going. And I think we asked him to be in it because I'm just gonna produce. Okay, good. So, then we, you know, we're like, trying to take that around town. And, you know, the jersey films, which is Dan to beat us company is like, we're simultaneously trying to create a television show with them around Super Troopers, because, you know, didn't make it as a movie. We're well let's make his TV show. Then we are unable to sell that. To Fox. We've had a pilot to Fox right. We had a pilot and there We're like, we don't know about them. We don't know about you guys. And they pass. So then Jersey films like why don't we make it move? And I'm like, Well, we're already making it with George Clooney. Great. We'll jump on. So now we're in Danny DeVito and George Clooney and two companies. And Soderbergh is giving us notes on the movie because he's with Clooney. And Soderbergh's, like I don't know about this opening scene, I guess. I don't even know what this he goes. I don't know what's so funny about these cops because I think you guys need a new wrinkle to it like you need you know how, like in Point Break there were those those President United States masks, he was like that, like, Why can't hide our faces? Because we're not famous. But I did. But but we're like, we're not doing that notice. In any case, so then we go around to all the studios, and they all go Yeah, already said no to that. We're not doing it just because you guys are. So now we're like, what the hell? All the independent people said no. And, and, you know, so finally, we're like, I'm in my office pack. I had a New York office, and I was I had moved to LA but I go in there, bring everything back. So pack in the opposite. Get ready, get unplugged the phone again. It's done. I'm moving out. And the phone rings and I pick it up and it's my friend cricket. And she goes, Hey, I hate to do this to you. But you know, my father is a investment banker. And he's, he's retiring and he wants to write scripts, and you're the only one I know is kind of in showbusiness kind of cricket. And he goes, Do you mind just talking to him? He wrote a script, he needs somebody else to look at it, I guess. And I'm like, alright, I'll do it. Right. And so I get on the phone with this guy. And he's like, because you write scripts. He's like, Donald banker, kind of like, tough guy. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, we've written a couple that goes, All right. Well, I wrote a script to it. I'm like, Oh, great. Don't make me read it. But I know you will. And then he's like, I guess I'll send it to you. But why don't you send me your script first. So I can just see what kind of writers you are. And I'm like, I'm being audition to read. Terrible script to sell Exactly. But I like cricket, and I kind of want to kiss her. So I'm like, you know, then I didn't kiss her. But anyway. So I said, I send the script over to this guy. And he, you know, a few days later, he calls me back. And you know, I'm unplugged the phone. Yeah. And he goes, I read your script. I said, Okay. I'm waiting for him to go. Okay. Now. Now I get to read your script. And he goes, pretty funny. Oh, yeah. Because what are you doing with it? I said, Well, it's a banker and raising money. Because how much you need. I said, we need a million to six. That's our budget. And he goes, I'll do it. And I hang up the phone and walk in my producers. I'm like, I know, the banker on the floor, wants to do the movie. And he goes, I will. My producer was an investment banker, too. He goes, Oh, to get this guy to fly? I'll find out, you know, I'll be able to suss him out. And he gets on the phone. He goes, Okay, right. Oh, and then he hangs up because he's a real deal guy. And within within about two weeks now, the bank,

Alex Ferrari 18:24
No, money dropped within two. I've never heard of a movie drop money dropping.

Jay Chandrasekhar 18:28
I'm funding the deal. Let's do it. That's how he looks at it. He goes, when I say I'm funding the deal, the money goes in the thing. And I'm like, why? Wow.

Alex Ferrari 18:38
That is what that is called. Just some some force in the universe just said, It's time for these boys to go make their movie started like that and

Jay Chandrasekhar 18:49
Run them all the way to the end where there's just unplugging the phone.

Alex Ferrari 18:55
Just just as a joke, we'll just go. Here's one last.

Jay Chandrasekhar 19:00
What do you got to pass the test? Which is to be nice to cricket.

Alex Ferrari 19:03
Right! Because if you so basically, we weren't I wouldn't be sitting here right now. God knows where your career would have been. If you wouldn't have been nice to cricket.

Jay Chandrasekhar 19:11
I would have been the Indian guy in the deli selling cigarettes to Brad Pitt when he goes to have sex with whoever.

Alex Ferrari 19:19
They're really funny. Really funny.

Jay Chandrasekhar 19:24
I it may not be true, but I call myself the Indian Jackie Robinson of of comedy. And it's because there were no there were no Indians in comedy. Right. And I got in and a lot of them have come up to him and like, Hey, I saw you on the screen. I thought I could do that too. And you know as these and Mindy and all these folks, I mean, if you look at the wave, there was me and then everybody came in and they're doing great work. I mean, look at all these great people. So

Alex Ferrari 19:58
Yeah, um, You were the Jackie Robinson, sir. You were the Jackie

Jay Chandrasekhar 20:02
Robinson. Yeah, I mean, you know, nobody hurled things at me from the stands are called me.

Alex Ferrari 20:07
There's that. There's that. But But you did have to sit in a room with Harvey Weinstein. So there's that.

Jay Chandrasekhar 20:15
You know, it was it was quite, it was actually quite thrilling. I didn't know. Obviously, all the stuff he had done.

Alex Ferrari 20:21
No, look, not everybody, every week could correct trash him now, because he's a monster and all that. But in the 90s, he was a god.

Jay Chandrasekhar 20:28
Yeah, I don't trash everyone's I mean, he's, what he was doing was awful. But you know, there were a lot of people around who seemed to know what he was, what he was doing, like it was just what the boss did. And you're like,

Alex Ferrari 20:48
I don't and there's, and there's a lot of that stuff that happens in Hollywood. I had heard stories running around town about that since I was starting out. So it's something that hopefully has changed a bit, but I think it has changed, I think, a tremendous, a tremendous amount since since the 90s. And early 2000s, without question, alright, so you get Super Troopers funded by a miracle. Miracle you're shooting? What is it? What is it like shooting? How did how did the production go smoothly? How did it run?

Jay Chandrasekhar 21:17
It had to go smoothly, because we only had the money for 28 days of shooting. Like he's like, in fact, peatland God put in 1,000,002, not a million to six pieces. Like that's all I'm giving you. And so I put in 30, and credit card and rich per element producer put in 13 credit card and we were like, hanging on by a thread. And, you know, like, the weather had to go well, the film. I mean, we shot on film, it had to be you know, everything had to go well, and it and it did. It went it went according to plan. And then we you know, we cut it together. And you know, it was Sundance was, was interested in the film because of the previous thing. But we were so close to the deadline that it was, it was you know, like we had shot it. We shot it in June and the Sundance deadline was, you know, September. Yeah, September. So we cut it together, we put together we sent it in, and I was in. I can't remember. Anyway, whenever we got the call, you get a Thanksgiving that they see or, or your or they don't call it. But the we got the call that we were in and we were like, oh my god, we have to finish this movie in time. And we're not sure we can even do it because we were the do art film lab. And yet all the films that got in were rushing. And so we just received finished, right. And, in fact, it was so close that we we ended up in the do art film lab on the morning that we were flying to Salt Lake City, that we're watching the final approach. And I was sitting in that room with Kevin Halford into play farva And the color timer. And we're watching it. And we're watching it and like watch the first the opening scene of Super Troopers. If you haven't seen it, like I'm a cop, and I know you've seen it though, I guess. And another, we pull over some stoners, and we we mess with them. And there's some other things that's so and it's you know what, it has gone on to become the scene which we're known most for, I would say like, you know, like they're like, it's the scene that describes broken lizards comedy, I think quite well, and people were like that to you guys. Okay, so I watched that scene. And the title of the film comes up Super Troopers. And I'm like, Can we can we turn the lights on for a second? And they stopped the film. And I stand up and I look at Kevin, I'm like, we blew it. That opening scene sucks. And he was we talking about? And I'm like, it's terrible. Otherwise, I act like that. I don't know what. Nobody was telling me that I was acting like that. And he goes, I think it's pretty good, dude. I'm like, What the hell do you know? And the color type of goes, I think it's pretty good too. I'm like, You know what, pal? It's not. And we got to go to Utah tomorrow and show this terrible learn. Right? And I'm like, Ah, Doom. I was just feeling doom. Wow. And in fact, the opening scene a puddle cruiser is the worst scene in the movie. It's just okay. You know, like, like it with comedies. You want to get them laughing fast so that you can keep them laughing and they're like, oh, yeah, we're laughing we're supposed to. So I was like, we tried so hard to make Super Troopers a good opening scene. It was just because of how bad the opening pedal cruiser was. We the product was there opening was so it wasn't bad. It was just slow and whatever. We used to take up a marionette. Like it was Jimmy the dummy, right? And it's like a little ventriloquist guy. And we did a whole scene at the first Sundance with this dummy, where, you know, like one of us would go up on stage and go, Hey, the film print broke. And we're getting a new one shipped in from Salt Lake, the whole packed audience, and the audience have grown. But it's coming, it's coming. We'd make up this thing. And then the dummy had like somebody on the on the, in the audience ago, unprofessional. That was one of us, right? And then another guy would be like, Hey, leave him alone. And is this guy with a ventriloquist dummy. And they go, what? I think these guys are young filmmakers, and they're trying really hard. And then the guy you shut up, you dummy. And then everybody be yelling at each other. And then a guy in a UPS uniform. What am I guys would come run it in. I got the film. And he'd run unspool everywhere, right? And the audience was laughing and laughing. And then we started the movie, and they're laughing and then they go, I was like, to Kevin, I'm like, we gotta go back to my house right now. We'll take the cab go back to pick up Jimmy, the dummy. We're doing the things sketch again. Because we're not doing it. We're just showing it and I'm like, to go to Park City. And we're in a bar, and I'm sitting in the bars, Harvey wants you. And I'm like, oh, we gotta get this guy in the screening, right? And so we send Marissa Coughlin who's in the movie, and she knows him. And she's, he's, she's, he's like, he's like, come on over. And so it was I'm telling the story of this criminal now. So and So Harvey, and, and he's like, look, Jay, I'd love to go to your movie. But I got a meeting right in the middle of it. I can't. If I go to your movie, and I leave, you're not selling your movie. And I'm like, I know. But if if I said, well just put you in the back seat. just sneak out and then you know, he goes, Okay, I'll come to your movie. Put me in the back seat. I'll sneak out and I'll come back. And I'm like, great. Let's do it. And so we do it. We put them in the back seat, back row. place is packed with really high and kind of drunk people because it's like a midnight screening. And we know a lot of people in LA and New York. Everyone's like, yeah, revved up, right. And they all turn and look at Harvey Weinstein. And they go well, right. He's here. Holy shit. He's here, right? And so he's sitting in the back. The movie starts unlike, it's gonna be terrible. And immediately the laughs start rolling and rolling. And then I mean, it rolled. And then when that title came up, the place blows up into an ovation. And tears rolled up. Because I was so tense. I was so tense. And then I'm like pacing in the lobby as enlisting to the movie laughter. And Harvey gets up around the 30 minute mark, he goes, this movie is killing, because I'm coming back. And he, he leaves goes to thing and he comes back and he slides right in he goes, incredible. And at the end of the movie, he goes, come over, talk to me talk to me, because I'm not going to necessarily buy your film yet, because I haven't seen it all. But this is going to help you. Because he watch what happens here. And he goes, in fact, I want you to meet me at this bar. And you watch where we'll be in. You'll be in the daily, whatever the page six. I'm like, okay, so we meet up at this bar, right? And, and I'm there and like, whatever. We're kind of chatting, I'm a spy the movie, because I got to watch it first, give me the print. So we're kind of doing that thing. And I'm at the bar and executives from searchlight. And executives from Sony are like don't sell don't sell to Harvey. Let us we need more people to come see it don't sell or don't sell. And in fact, it created this frenzy. And then we showed it again Saturday night. And we showed it again Sunday night and searched late and made an offer a three and a half. And we're like Harvey, you want to beat that with Sony, whatever. And search sites like that offer expires when your Sunday night screening starts. So take it early. And we're like, We'll take it. We'll take it. Thank God we took a search like because we had such a nice career with those guys. And we never had to deal with, you know, Harvey Scissorhands, which is what he was called by a lot of filmmakers. So we went in recut. I mean, like, obviously a lot worse things recut movies, but I always grateful that I never fell into his his hands.

Alex Ferrari 29:36
Right. But at least he did whatever he did for you back in the day. It started the conversation. It's that's that's an amazing story. So you tripled your budget, and your career was off the ground. I have to ask you, I mean, it turned into a huge hit. I mean, it was it and not only huge financial box office hit but then DVDs back then and

Jay Chandrasekhar 29:58
It made Fox over 100 A million dollars, cheese, a million dollar movie. Almost every penny of

Alex Ferrari 30:07
I was about to say almost every single buddy I like I'm sure that you didn't get that. But but so let me ask you a question I always love asking filmmakers who get this kind of situation happen to them this kind of lottery, I call it the lottery ticket. Because it's like it's, it is a lottery, it's a lottery ticket moment that you worked very hard for. It's not like you was lucky to get it. But all the circumstances that happened like crickets was gives you the money. And then Sunday, there's a lot of these things that happen. How did the town treat you as the director of this film afterwards?

Jay Chandrasekhar 30:43
That what happens is there's a period of, of heat, right? So we instantly got to television deals one with the NBC and one with ABC. You know, like we we entered into, you know, searchlight one at our next film, which would become Club Dread. And, you know, we were, I was in the conversation around town as one of the new guys. But I wasn't pursuing that I didn't even know how to pursue it. Because I was like, I would read these, you know, often not great comedy scripts. And I go, Well, no, I can't make a not great movie, but didn't occur to me that I could then put my improvement tour on it and rewrite it 10 Guys rewrite it or we rewrite I didn't even know that sounds like, well, if it's this now then I can't make that movie. That's how kind of dumb I was. And so I passed a lot of good movies. And then I said, Oh, well, you know what, this is an idea for a film this movie. And I'll just take it, I'll rewrite everything. And and then it'll be the same movie, but it'll be about my version, which should be in my opinion, a good now, like, that's what I do. But then, yeah, I was, I was like, one of the guys who, you know, I was on variety, top 10, directors, you know, all that stuff,

Alex Ferrari 32:22
You went through the water bottle. So you went through the water bottle tool, or you just went, you met everybody.

Jay Chandrasekhar 32:26
The bottom line is, in the film, business is a largely self generating business. And if you relax and be like, I made it, I'm in the top 10. Director, so it's meaningless. It's like, yeah, some producer might call you and go, Hey, can you do something with this, they're still trying to get the money. And, you know, if you're not generating yourself, if you're not out there going, I want to make a movie about this. And this, this, and I'm gonna write this script. And this is the writer is going to do it. We're going to do that together. And if you're not doing that, you're not getting movement. Still.

Alex Ferrari 33:00
Still, at any level. I mean, even Spielberg can can get some things made, but he still has to develop and build and do things like that.

Jay Chandrasekhar 33:09
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's has a little easier.

Alex Ferrari 33:13
But yeah, a little bit a little bit easier. That

Jay Chandrasekhar 33:15
Leads me to this. I don't want to jump off your train. Yeah. But if you want to continue we can I have a spiel Brooks. I love skills.

Alex Ferrari 33:24
I have so many people who've worked with Spielberg on the show. I have he, it seems to me that he always he's always in the mix somehow, with any any, any big thing that happens in town, you always get the call from even if it's just like, hey, man, great movie. What was your what's your Spielberg story?

Jay Chandrasekhar 33:39
Well, I was I was sitting at home in the pandemic. And I basically had turned into like a full time golfer, like I played every day. And I was just sort of there and I get this call from my agent that said, hey, what do you know about Joe coy? And I said, Well, Joe coy the comic I mean, it's funny, funny, dude. Right? Instead, well, okay, here's the deal. Joe coy has done a stand up special on Netflix. And Steven Spielberg during the pandemic happened to watch it. And he loves Joe Callie. And now he's like, wants to make a chill coin movie. And they want to do it in Vancouver. And they want to and you gotta go any day now, because the film can only be shot in May in June because that's Jo Koy standup window, where he's got stand up shows all over the world and the big show so and I'm like, big shows really? sells out 16,000 seat arenas. I was like, oh, oh, okay. And I'm like, okay, so May June. So we got to be in Vancouver when Monday and they're like, Yeah, kinda. And I'm like, Okay, so I'm in the strips. So I read this rapid I'm like Okay, I got it. I mean, I know Joe's stand up, and it's, uh, it's like attempting to be about his family. And I'm like, Yeah, I said, you know, look, this script, were I to do it would need some work, but it's not work that can't be done. So I said, y'all go. Well, I mean, cuz they Amblin was asking for me to go. And I said, Yeah, I'll do it. So I flew to Vancouver. And and when did a quarantine for two weeks in a in a hotel very nice. But it was hard, where I couldn't see any but I can step over the the entrance to the I just stayed in that room. And then I got out and Jo Koy came to town and I met him for the first time. I mean, I we'd met on Zoom. And we you know, I hired a writer, and she and I rewrote the thing. And, and then, you know, I started I met Steven Spielberg, I just because of the quarantine and the COVID thing, I get to know from every now and then like movie stars don't wear hats. And I'm like, okay, he can't wear a hat and the next thing but

Alex Ferrari 36:10
Steven, Mount Olympus called, and you can't,

Jay Chandrasekhar 36:14
You know, like, we were gonna hire an activist for a part that, and we sent it to him the choice. And you know, she was the more famous person, right? And I've been at Warner Brothers for years, I had to deal over there. And they're, like, just hire the most famous person, we'll put them on the poster, and we'll make it work. And I'm like, I just assumed everybody did that. And so I'm like, I get in the choice most vampers. And he sends a note back. There's other woman's much better actor than the most famous person or anything. And I'm like, Well, yeah, but she's not the most famous person. And he has when he when she was a better actor, I like of course I do. I didn't know I could. I did. So then I did. And it's the it's the central decision for the whole movie. Like, it's because we hired this woman. The movie works in a way you can't even believe in my view. It's called Easter Sunday. Right? Has this you know, you know, he's not just some rando. He's like, who just said, my name is on it? He's like, what about that? What do you think about that? And you're like, Okay, great. But you know,

Alex Ferrari 37:19
I'm assuming one day, you'll get a phone call, maybe,

Jay Chandrasekhar 37:22
You know, I will, I will. I will go to my grave, not assuming I'm gonna meet Steven Spielberg. Even though he's my boss, I just don't I don't see how that could happen. I live in a world where I'm like, constantly convinced I'm about to be kicked out of show business. So there's no space in that world for me to believe that I will meet Steven Spielberg. So

Alex Ferrari 37:41
I always love asking this question from from, you know, people who've hit a certain level in the business is like, do you do you? So you just said, you truly believe that at any moment, security is gonna come in, like, what are you doing here? You need to be escorted out.

Jay Chandrasekhar 37:54
Right! Like, I realized how ridiculous it is. Because I was I did a stand up show recently. And it was me. And Tiffany Haddish. And Anthony Jeselnik. And Tom Arnold, and we're upstairs. We're just chatting for comments, chatting. And I'm like, moments like these were my were where I have to admit that I might have made it. And I hate to admit that, because I'm so hungry. And I'm so they don't want me and show business. I'll show them I'll make a I'll make my 10th movie.

Alex Ferrari 38:33
No, I have to ask you. So that's fantastic. By the way, I was gonna bring you Easter Sunday because I saw Easter Sunday. And we've been working on this interview for months now. And then all of a sudden, I'm like, oh, Easter Sunday is coming out and like, and I'm such a joy cliff. I'm like, absolute huge joy play fan. And I've had I've had the pleasure of meeting him we almost work together on this close up almost working together years ago. And Joe is just wonderful. It's just I'm such a such a fan of his but Super Troopers to is such a unique story and how you got that made? Because the studio didn't want to make the sequel and you had to raise the money yourself. Right?

Jay Chandrasekhar 39:11
They were worried that it was too long. Between films. You know, first one came out in 2002. The second one might have come out in 2016 or 18, or something, I don't know. But it was it was it was a long time. They were like ah or no. And they're like, so they said well, why don't you raise the money yourself? Really, you made $100 million. You can't just carve a couple up. And they're like, yeah, it raise the money yourself will distribute it and like okay, and then they said and you have to raise the prints and advertising budget to which is all the money. It's the budget and all the money to release it. So you're talking about, in this case, we had to raise $30 million. And I'm like, I can't raise 30.

Alex Ferrari 40:13
Cricket, cricket.

Jay Chandrasekhar 40:17
Cricket, British jazz, like, I'll put money in. And we put money together. We had like, I don't know, maybe we got to about five or so. And then we were like, kind of hit a wall didn't weren't eight. And then they also said, we'll never let you take to another studio because other studios are like, Neff. You know, Netflix they will do. Oh, yeah. Can't take it out of work. No. And we're not making it but no, he can't take. So we happened upon this. I mean, we, you know, we, we watched watch the news, we saw these brought from Mars had raised some money for the movie of that. And we thought, well, cat, I mean, we're at least in a similar position, and you know that a thing they loved and they're doing a thing. So we we hired the guy did that campaign sky Ivan asked cough. And he he, he put together account, he first of all, he goes, I'm not terribly familiar with your work. That's the first thing he said. And I'm like a computer guy. And you have no tact or anything. It's so funny. And he then he goes, You know, there's quite a bit of interest in your comedy. around the internet. I've done a search. And I was like, how do you what, okay, and he goes, I'm gonna take this job. And I'm like, okay, great. Let's do it. Thanks. This incredible campaign with great art and incentives. And we made a video where you like, we locked farva in the trunk of a car, and I remember it, and then we said, Give us money, or else we won't let them out of the truck. And then we push go on the campaign. And it was like, oh, like, I mean, we raised I think $5.8 million

Alex Ferrari 42:15
On Indiegogo, right,

Jay Chandrasekhar 42:16
Indiegogo, something like that we were second to product remarks. Whatever they made, we've made a little less. And, and search site was like, what? Oh, how many 50,000 people gave me money. And they're like, Oh, okay. Oh, wow. Great. And then. So then we were able to then now they were really excited about it. And and then they agreed to release the film for us with their money. It's nice. And so yeah, so we still funded the production. They they funded the you know, but we made the movie. And then we tested the movie. And the reaction in the audience was like, I mean, it was insane. The reaction and all the searchlight executives are there. And when they put the they take keep 20 people back to talk to him about the what? How would you feel about the movie? And that and they're like, this is from a franchise? And yeah, so the test did I tell you about the testing of the screen. It tested incredibly well, like the numbers were astronomical. The audience was comparing it to franchises like Star Wars. And Fox, people were like, Oh, my God, we gotta hit. And so they pour the money and they did great campaign, two posters, super cool. Everything was great. And we were like, holy, this is incredible. We're gonna we're gonna have a, you know, it looks really good. We're gonna have a hit movie. And so then the weekend, the week we arrived in New York, it's what you do at the end of the of the campaign to do press in New York Press. We're, it's Monday, and the policy is with us. It's like, I hate to break it to you guys. But whatever, you got really bad tracking on this movie. Like, and the tracking predicts what the box office opening weekend is gonna pay. And they're like, it's it's tracking to open to about $3 million, right? In order to be a success. This movie would in search sites view what he wanted to open to 10 You know, that would be a success for a small film. And we were like, 3 million. How's that possible? Like we had a 50,000. And they're like, Well, you know, like our fans have been notoriously stoners, right? They're like a little slow to the mark. A little slower the market. Got there, like they would have to do a Stand Up Show. There'll be tickets available up until an hour before the Friday and there's like 100 Tickets available. And then boom, it's sold out and you're like gas kit. Get your internet Oh, can you do this? So I'm like, maybe that's it. And they're like, maybe I don't know. And Monday, Tuesday is still tracking three, Wednesday, it's still tracking 3 million. And everyone's like, we make the president of searchlight calls and go, Hey, man, we tried. I'm sorry, right. And then Thursday morning, we're in an interview in some brewery or something in Brooklyn or something. And publicists, because she's looking at her phone. She goes, there's some weird there's some weird and numbers out of the matinees that, well, they're just not, they're not right, but we're gonna get a check. We're gonna check. And I said, What are they there? She's like, well, the next are sold out. And I'm like, Yeah, that's that's true. And so she goes, yeah, there's a problem with the computer the system. There's a problem, obviously, obviously. So then the next screening she goes, yeah, these these numbers are stupid. They're all sold out. And the so two screenings are now sold out morning at 11am. And one and then the third one, she was sold out again. Like he's a real numbers, and suddenly, we've now we went Thursday, we went Friday, were the top movie in the country. And, and we had 1800 screens, I think, or something like that. And Amy Schumer had 2600 2800 screens. So we were beating her on per screen average. And then with the volume of Sprint's they ended up winning the weekend, but we won the per screen average for the weekend with our 1800 scripts. It was a miracle. It was a miracle, and searchlights. Like, let's make two more movies. And then you know, there we go. And there we go.

Alex Ferrari 46:48
And now that's why now you're writing Super Troopers 3.

Jay Chandrasekhar 46:51
We made a film called quasi, which is set in 13th century France. And Steve Lemmy plays a hunchback, and I play the King of France, and Paul said, replace the Pope. And it's a full on Monty Python esque style movie. I'm sure people are gonna go, you guys aren't as good as Python and will go away agree. But still, we made one and we said, You know what the end knew we were in it with this accent. You're like, oh my god, we're in the middle of a Python movie.

Alex Ferrari 47:22
That's amazing. That's amazing. Now I'm jam and ask you a couple questions. Ask all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Jay Chandrasekhar 47:31
Well, my advice would be don't wait around for other people to let you in. Because there are people like me on the other side of the door, pressing our shoulders against it to keep you up. And the only way and is through that door. So keep pushing. Until wait for me to let you in.

Alex Ferrari 47:55
That's not gonna happen.

Jay Chandrasekhar 47:56
I got this side. I'm in Vegas, the hotel. That's good. The answer as it's awesome. We respond to the same things you would think we respond to, which is followers. And, and numbers. Like if you can demonstrate an audience by making your short films and putting them on the internet and having people watch him, you know, and we go, Oh, my God, a million people watch Oh, wow, that's good. Maybe well, you know, comes with a built in audience, you know, it's like it. It, it's not easy, but it's also you have an ability to chart sort of do things cheaply. The problem for the new generation is that so many people are trying to do things cheaply. There's so much stuff you're like, it's hard to really get your mind around it. And so, you know, the system benefits those with access to capital. And that's sort of the sad truth of it. All right, if you can, if you can raise money. I mean, it's even harder now. Because it's like, Sundance isn't what it used to be, you know, like the people are not. Companies are not going to Sundance and necessarily buying. I mean, they are they're buying phones, but it's a little different. It's not, you know, you don't have these people are automatically in the theater. So yeah, I was streaming a little bit and you know, and that's all good. And that's all good. But that's sort of the changing moment here.

Alex Ferrari 49:20
Do you think that Super Troopers, what would happen if Super Troopers got released today?

Jay Chandrasekhar 49:24
It probably would have gone to somebody like Netflix, maybe?

Alex Ferrari 49:30
Maybe we've ended up knowing that you did. Nobody knew who you were, you made a million dollar movie,

Jay Chandrasekhar 49:35
I believe it would have sold because the response in the room was electric. And that's really the game right? If you can get to Sundance and show the movie in a room full of people, you've flipped the power dynamics so that the buyer instead of watching it on their desk on their laptop and drinking coffee and walking around and doing all this stuff, they are now in a room with audience in the hall. Do you have to like and they're like oh no what do i do i better buy it. I mean that's sort of how that works. And that still works that way you know like I you can still get a movie it into the theater so if you're nobody's and you know nobody's in the movie then it's harder right it's like the probably end up on a streaming service first and maybe you'll never get out of there. I don't really know. I mean, the problem with the problem and Netflix is they pay more money than searchlight does. And and you know, and then the movie ends up being sitting there you know, lost in the soup doesn't have the same when you get a postcard campaign and interviews and it you know, the movie series into audiences brains in a different way. You know, the the movies on Netflix, currently don't do that in my view.

Alex Ferrari 50:55
Right. Yeah, you've right I mean, Top Gun. did what it did because of it. Well, it did. Okay. Yeah. The biggest Memorial Day weekend opening ever. Oh, good.

Jay Chandrasekhar 51:05
Good, good. Good. I you know, the whole thing is I want I you know, I said to universal when we were getting ready to think about how we're going to put out this movie in the middle of the pandemic, of course, the movie tested well, Easter Sunday tested really well. Joe coy is the biggest ticket selling stand up comic in showbiz. He's number Wow, wow. That was 56,000 seats in Los Angeles and three nights. He says 30,000 in Seattle, he is filling hockey arenas everywhere he goes. And I said to them, Look, guys, we got to we got a theatrical comedy that works really the audience's we tested. They love it. We've Jo Koy in his first film, this is like having Steve Martin before the church or Eddie Murphy before for eight hours. We got him. And you guys are universal. And I mean, like, if we can sell this as a theatrical comedy. We you guys, we should all stop. You know. Cuz I said we gotta be you know, we're all looking around go, who's gonna bring the actual economy back? You know who it is? It's us. We're, we're, we've been put here to do this. This is our turn. It's time to do it. And so I've been telling people like, we're bringing the company back. And we're the only theatrical comedy coming out this summer. That's how bad it's gotten.

Alex Ferrari 52:22
You're absolutely right. I mean, yeah. I mean, it is outrageous. And now it's like everyone's saying that theaters are just for the event films. And they are for certain extent, of course. But, you know, like a film, a film like Easter Sunday will absolutely open. Well, I mean, you've got an audience that is used to buying tickets for this artist on top of it sounds like, make sense.

Jay Chandrasekhar 52:44
We'll see if I'm right. I mean, we'll see if I'm right. But I but I hope I am. I mean, you know, it's a gambling business, you know, that it's gunslingers and gamblers

Alex Ferrari 52:53
We're working on we're such a big joke, my fans, my family and our daughters, everyone. So we're gonna we're gonna head out to the theaters to see it when it comes out.

Jay Chandrasekhar 53:01
To do we do you know about my the APA credit, are you?

Alex Ferrari 53:05
I don't, ah, tell me about the app.

Jay Chandrasekhar 53:10
So it all goes back, Super Troopers comes out after this incredible Sundance experience comes out in the theaters. And the reviewers on Rotten Tomatoes, a site named for throwing rotten fruit that people like me some site. They give it a 38% Fresh, the reviewers, right? And I was like, what, what, what do we have to do? Like and the and then that's 100 people. Then over time, you know, the audience weighed in, and and the audience gave us a 90% Fresh, right? That's 200,000 people read it that way. And I'm like, Who are these strangers with outsize power, right? They're just, they're, you know, a reviewer, I got no problem with reviews, right? I shouldn't think they're valuable. But aggregating all of them, and putting it into a score is just nonsensical, like we got reviewed for Beer Fest from a woman in Arizona named grandmas reviews. And her review of the film was, I didn't like it. There's too much drinking. I'm like it's an ode to binge drinking. It's called Pure fats. So but that goes into a reviewer score. And you're like, I said, Oh, my God, I need to get revenge on Rotten Tomatoes and stood with me for 1820 years. And then I said, I know how I'm going to do it. I'm going to build an app. Right? I mean, look, the premise is this. reviewers are strangers. When's the last time you walked up to a stranger on the street and said, Hey, what movie should I see? That's what we're doing

Alex Ferrari 54:54
Exactly.

Jay Chandrasekhar 54:56
In Rotten tomatoes. You're taking all these strangers aggregate They're strange opinions and putting it together. There you go. Here's what the strangest thing. So I said, you know, I want to build an app that is, you if you want advice for a movie, you talk to your friends, right? You talk to your friends, your or maybe you know some celebrity on something that some filmmakers today, this is a good movie road to Busan or whatever it is, Train to Busan era. And so I made an app, I started to develop an app that was going to be a recommendation site for movies, TV books, podcasts, music, right? And I connected with these two guys who are computer guys, and they were already reacting to this. You know, like Amazon reviews or Yelp reviews, they're like, who wrote the review? Was it the owner of the restaurant who wrote it? Was it the restaurant across the street and wrote them a bad review? Was it somebody who doesn't like the waiter who gave them a bet? I mean, you know, you're like, you just you're strangers, right? So they were working on an idea to try to solve that problem. And we teamed up. And we made a thing called vouch fault. All right. It's in the App Store notes in the Apple Store. It's in the Android store. And it's basically that says, basically Instagram for recommendations. So if you open my vault, you'll see that I like Reservoir Dogs, you'll see that I like Pulp Fiction, you'll see that I like Richard Pryor live in Long Beach that Stand Up Show. You'll see that I like that joke Koy stand up, you'll see I put Super Troopers there you see, you know, if I like this indie hustle, you could see that like, you can put anything you like. And so if you follow me, like, oh, Jay likes this thing, and you push a button, you can try it, right. But books, anything, I have all sorts of books on there, right? And so it'll work best. I think the goal is to say it's a word of mouth machine, you know, it's also a memory machine so that when I tell my children you know, this Fleetwood Mac rumours album was very important for you to listen to they go, it's not just me saying it. It's there in the vault. Right? They go, Oh, yeah, Dad was talking about this album, I listened to it. You know, it's like and if you if you somebody recommend something in the past, you write it down on a little note in your phone right here. There's a tribal you just stick it in there. So when you're home on a Friday night and like what's in my tribe while you're like oh, yeah, this new BBC Three documentary I wanted to see I remember I wrote it down there it is. Try it. And so it's it's a machine that I hope is going to change the way specifically film is judged the way you know, I want reviewers on there. I'm gonna talk I'm trying to get oh and gleeman and trying to get Drew McWeeny and go hey, guys, I tell me what you love. Right? Tell me the films you love that nobody knows about. And then I'll watch them. You know? I'm not trying to kill reviewers. I'm I am trying to kill Rotten Tomatoes. I am. It is a revenge ploy. It is a revenge.

Alex Ferrari 58:02
You are not the only assert. You're not the only one who feels some vengeance as needed against Rotten Tomatoes, many filmmakers, many filmmakers feel the same way you are and I

Jay Chandrasekhar 58:12
All get on this app. And let's show them who we are.

Alex Ferrari 58:15
Fantastic. And last question, three of your favorite films of all time.

Jay Chandrasekhar 58:20
48 hours, Reservoir Dogs and Goodfellas

Alex Ferrari 58:29
Rest in peace Ray Liotta

Jay Chandrasekhar 58:31
They're all the reason they're all on that list is because they're all tough, funny films. And I like I like it when the guy when the people are tough in the movie. And I like when they're when it's that funny and it's that you know it's sometimes you know, violent and funny is some sometimes really funny but they played straight for eight hours you're like there's some broad stuff but there's some the bad guys are bad the violence is is terrifying and obviously Goodfellas is a way it's funny as hell.

Alex Ferrari 59:06
Joe Pesci scene alone

Jay Chandrasekhar 59:09
I can't believe really leave it at that Reservoir Dogs is still work.

Alex Ferrari 59:17
It's a masterpiece masterpiece. Jay and when is Easter Easter Sunday coming up

Jay Chandrasekhar 59:23
August 5th.

Alex Ferrari 59:25
Man I cannot wait to see it. And Jay thank you so much for coming on the show man and and sharing your adventures and your knowledge with experiences with the tribe man, I really appreciate you. Thank you for your inspiration and just like you were inspired by Ed burns and and Clerks and Kevin and Mariachi and all those kinds of films. People listening now hopefully will be inspired by us like if this guy can do it.

Jay Chandrasekhar 59:49
That's right. That guy can do it. That's a John Oliver said to me when I was I was directing him community. He had never acted before. And I'd seen him do stand up and I loved him to stand up. I said John has first acting scene ever and then like, he nervous at all. And he goes, how hard could it be?

Alex Ferrari 1:00:23
A pleasure meeting you my friend. Thank you again for being on the show brother continued success and I can't wait to see Easter Sunday, man. Thanks again.

Jay Chandrasekhar 1:00:28
For indie hustle, buddy. I'm gonna put indie hustle in my bouch ball.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:32
Indie Film Hustle. I appreciate you brother. Thank you again, man.

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Jambox.io – Royalty Free Music for Indie Films – 20% OFF (Coupon Code: HUSTLE20)
  2. Need Distribution for Your Film? – Check This Out!
  3. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  4. Audible – Get a Free Filmmaking or Screenwriting Audiobook

IFH 600: How to Direct Nail-Biting Action Films with Con Air’s Simon West

We made it to 600 Episodes! Thank you all for the support over the years. Here’s to 600 more! Today’s guest is action director Simon West.

Simon West is a British film director and producer. His films include “CON AIR” starring Nicholas Cage, “THE GENERAL’S DAUGHTER” starring John Travolta and “LARA CROFT: TOMB RAIDER” starring Angelina Jolie. West is the only live action director ever whose first three 3 films all grossed over $100m at the US box office. West also served as an executive producer on the Oscar nominated “BLACK HAWK DOWN”.

His television company has produced 6 TV pilots for US TV including acclaimed series such as Fox’s “KEEN EDDIE”, the CBS series “CLOSE TO HOME”, Fox’s “HUMAN TARGET” and the NBC series “THE CAPE”.

West directed the action packed remake of “THE MECHANIC” starring Jason Statham and Ben Foster and “THE EXPENDABLES 2” starring almost every action star in the movie world. This film grossed over $300m in worldwide box office.

West’s film titled “SKYFIRE” was one of the largest films ever made in China and opened number one at the box office there in 2019. His latest film “LEGEND HUNTERS” will be released in May 2021. Recently, West served as a judge for the 2019 Beijing International Film Festival and was a guest speaker at the 22nd Shanghai International Film Festival to advise the Chinese film industry on standardization.

West is currently in post-production on “Boundless – Sin Limites”, which marks the 500th anniversary of the first circumnavigation of the globe by Ferdinand Magellan and Juan Sebastian Elcano. The Amazon project was shot in Spain and The Dominican Republic.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Simon West 0:00
Because all those incredible things you do, you're so busy stressing at the time and trying to do it. Sometimes it's hard to step back and go, Wow, what we're doing is really cool here. And this is, so I think there's try and enjoy it along the way.

Alex Ferrari 0:14
Today's show is sponsored by Enigma Elements. As filmmakers, we're always looking for ways to level up production value of our projects, and speed up our workflow. This is why I created Enigma Elements. Your one stop shop for film grains, color grading luts vintage analog textures like VHS and CRT images, smoke fog, textures, DaVinci, resolve presets, and much more. After working as an editor, colorist post and VFX supervisor for almost 30 years, I know what film creatives need to level up their projects, check out and enigmaelements.com and use the coupon code IFH10. To get 10% off your order. I'll be adding new elements all the time. Again, that's enigmaelements.com. I'd like to welcome to the show Simon West, how you doing?

Simon West 1:08
I'm very well how are you?

Alex Ferrari 1:10
I'm doing great, my friend. Thank you so much for coming on the show. As I was telling you earlier, I've been a huge fan of your work from the beginning of your feature world. And I actually see some of your music videos and commercials as well growing up. But, you know, there's very few action directors to do action like you do. So I'm excited to get into the weeds of your journey and of your process. So first question, my friend I have to ask you is why in God's green earth did you want to get into this insanity that is called the film industry?

Simon West 1:43
Well, I never really had any other idea of anything else I wanted to do. And you know, from about 12 years old, it was quite serious. But I have to say, I was really fascinated by film from like three or four years old, because my dad had an old Super Eight, camera and projector and it's one of my earliest memories of him putting the screen up in our kitchen and projecting, you know, home movies, and just the fascination of seeing the moving image on this screen in a dark room. You know, with them, the dust melting on the bulb and the smell of it and the smell of the screen and I still have that screen. And every time I open it, it's the same old smell takes me back to like being you know, four years old and seeing the whole movies. And so it stuck with me. So when I hit 12, and I was sort of, you know, could do something about it, I got you know, paper around and saved up my money and bought a little Super Eight film camera. And then it was all about saving up money for the film stock. Because in those days, you know, one roll of film, that was two and a half minutes long cost about the same as two music albums. So it was really expensive. So I never had a music collection growing up because all my friends you know, would have albums and collect vinyl. And I never did because every penny I'd saved went on movie film, you know, to make my little films and so I still don't really have a musical action. I mean, I've just about started to do, you know, Spotify, playlists and everything. But I've never owned physically a music collection. And I guess nobody does know everything is virtual. So but yeah, so as is one of my earliest memories. It's the only thing I ever wanted to do. I sort of started earnestly making stuff at 12. And then when I got to 16, I joined a I heard about a film club in the next city to me, which was Oxford. And they had 16 millimeter film equipment. And they were mostly, you know, graduates or postgraduates. And, you know, I went along as this sort of gawky, 16 year old kid, and they told me to use the 60 mil equipment. And so I started just shooting that myself and I went out on the streets of London and into the, you know, the subway and shot things down there. And I started shooting musicians who just played on the street, you know, busking for money, and I sort of combined music and film quite early on in that way. And then I was sort of interested in the musicians, but I was also interested in the way music played with film and it was always very, you know, evocative to me. So even though I never had a musical action, I always associated, you know, music and film the imagery together, and I managed the 18th to talk my way into the BBC, in their film department, and at that time, they weren't really there was one film school in in England, the National Film School and it was really hard to get into you had to be a graduate or postgraduate or you had to have been a journalist or you had to go on on a expedition through the jungle you had to offer them something quite accept shouldn't have to get in. And they only took 25 people a year, you know, which was a tiny amount. So there's, I didn't think there was any chance of getting into that. But luckily, the BBC took a, you know, there was one guy that I think that sort of saw a bit of himself in me that was a sort of precocious film, brat who knew everything about fit or thought they knew everything about film. And I certainly knew a lot technically, about how it worked. And, you know, I could talk endlessly about film. And, you know, I've been watching Truffaut films on, you know, my little black and white portable in my bedroom from you know, 12 years old. So I knew about, you know, different sorts of cinema out there and American cinema, French cinema, English cinema, and, but I also knew technically how to do it. So they kind of, you know, one of the questions was like, we don't usually take people your age, you know, you have to usually be in your 20s, at least to get in mid 20s. I said, Well, what are you going to do, if you don't get in, I said, Well, I'll just apply again, I'll just keep applying until you let me in. So they just obviously didn't want to be stalked, or 10 years. So they let me in and they train me. So I got this training by the BBC, in every department that was great at that time, they taught you film editing, photography, and everything about the lenses, everything about the lighting, how the sound was recorded, how the sounds mixed, everything technically, and then they send you to every department. So I started in documentaries, then I went to drama, and then arts documentaries, and news and current affairs, and they just rotate you around. And then when you find an area that you'd like, you can, you know, apply to stay there. And I ended up in drama, obviously, because that's what I wanted to do. And I worked with some great directors under them. But when I was there was like Mike Lee was, was there at the time, and in the film, who does very improvised drama. So I kind of, you know, tapped into that and realized how you can work with actors to get so much out of an actor. Rather than just sitting in your room, you know, bashing out the script yourself, if you actually get a group of actors together, you're going to come up with something really cool. So he told me a lot of that. And then also, there was the traditional BBC dramas, which you know, Sherlock Holmes, or Pride and Prejudice, or, you know, anything to do with Dickens or Emma, you know, Emily Bronte, or that sort of costume drama, which are very traditional. And then on the other hand, this sort of improvised drama, from Mike Lee, and, but also, I learned a lot from working in documentaries, and new current affairs, because documentaries taught me to make a story out of what you actually ended up with, not what you hope to get. Because often any sort of you plan a movie or film and, and you've, it's going to be perfect, and you're going to get all these great sequences, but what you actually end up with is sort of if you're lucky, it's you know, 50% of what you set out to get, and then you've got to make the best story you can out of what you actually ended up with. And documentaries is like that you turn up, you shoot, whatever happens. And then you look at this pile of stuff, and you go, okay, how can we make a story out of this material. So I use that a lot in my filmmaking, you know, that that sense of, don't, don't stress too much about what you were hoping to get. Just try and make the best of what you did actually get in some of it's better than you planned, you know. And then the other thing I did was, was in current affairs, I mean, I worked on a news program called news night, which is still running, that went out at 11 o'clock at night, and you'd sit around all morning, waiting for stories to come in. And then the afternoon, the story would come in, and you'd be editing all afternoon. And then you'd still be mixing the sound and everything as the show started. So quite often, you know, you were running down the corridor with the film on your arm as the anchor was announcing the film, and they were throwing on the machine and pressing go and it just made it and that taught me not to panic. Because, again, when you're shooting, things go wrong, you know, and some sometimes you're under a huge stress. I've been in situations with gigantic stunts. You know, some pretty famous ones on you know, in films like Khan era and everything where I've had 200 stuntman, a full size aeroplane, a full size building, it's supposed to collapse, and it's all supposed to happen in one go, I've had 17 cameras running, and it's something has gone wrong, and you just can't panic and you can't, you know, crumble and yeah, that sort of broadcast news, as it were, that I worked on taught me how to you know, how to how to keep a steady head in the situation like that.

Alex Ferrari 9:59
So it's so it's fascinating hearing your story is that you, it looks like you went through almost a bootcamp early on very early on and covered almost every aspect of the tool sets, you picked up so many tools that you put in your toolbox, that your directors toolbox, by the time you started to actually direct, you would have been doing it in a sense for a long time, the skills like the broadcast news, which, which doesn't specifically, you know, translate to cinema, but yes, it does translate the cinema. So it kind of you were kind of being groomed, you know, by the universe, if you will, to, to do the kind of films that you are doing have been doing throughout your career.

Simon West 10:42
Yeah, you know, I was very lucky in that sense that I did end up. And it wasn't just then it was later when I went through music videos for a little bit, and then commercials, particularly, which then gave me another set of skill sets and experience and it's flying hours, you know, there's that old adage, you know, to be an expert, you have to do something for 10,000 hours. And so if you can arrive on set, you know, with 1020 30 50,000 hours of flying time, you're going to be in a much better position. I mean, I started in editing, which is particularly lucky, because that is definitely a great learning for directors, how to construct the story, and how what you actually need and how you can cheat and how you can, you know, give yourself some slack and not have to shoot every single thing you think you need. Because, you know, in editing, you can, you can help. And so editing was definitely a great start. And then, you know, when I went, as I said those, those various, you know, BBC situations, was that one set of experience, but then when I went into commercials, you know, that's working at a very high level, all over the world. So I'd be up a mountain, you know, one day, then I'd be underwater the next I'd be, you know, hanging out of a helicopter or racing cars or, and then I sort of move towards, I guess what it was I particularly look, how do I get into feature films it's like, so I looked for role models. And so in England, all the big directors went through commercials. So as Ridley Scott, Tony Scott, who has an Adrienne line, Alan Parker, all these guys who ended up making films in in England, and then Hollywood, had gone through commercials. And so I deliberately targeted commercials, because it was a very high end kind of training. And in, especially in England, a very kind of big budget glossy, very well made often better made than the shows in between them, you know, and that's, you know, TV was very cheap and cheerful in those days in the UK, but the commercials were very high end. You know, it's caught up. Now, of course, you know, TV is as good as movies, if not better sometimes. But so I targeted those type of people and that type of thing. So I ended up making a test commercial I shot, I deliberately shot a music video for a band, and I put in, I put in a little story in it. So I had to do the typical playing the instruments, and I was never, you know, a big music video director was really, you know, a way of paying the bills while I got into commercials, and then and then into movies. But so I deliberately made this little story in the in the music video. And then after I'd done that, I took it out, and I cut it down into a test commercial. And I had this, you know, test commercial that I sort of took with me when I got on the plane to the states. And the company I was working with in London had a la office and they said, Do you want to try and work out to the LA office because there was no work in the UK that time was absolutely dead. So I went over with sort of $400 in my pocket and this fake commercial and started you know, touting it round, and it sort of started to get interest. And by sheer coincidence, it was sort of comedic. It was a funny, it was a fake comedy beer commercial. And so then I started just getting offered comedy, which was very convenient, in a way because it was it was the commercials that had actors dialogue. It wasn't just cars driving through pretty forest amount into models on the beach. It was you know, it was a little story in itself so I could attract his my, my art and so I just started doing comedy commercials and they got you know, bigger and bigger and then ended up sort of doing Super Bowl commercials for you know, the Budweiser is. So like Budweiser frogs and then the Pepsi commercials and they started to get a lot more attention and you know, this was You know, the big budget, you know, there was spending about as much as in an independent little independent film on these 32nd commercials. So again, you know, I got used to having the big toys as it were, but it still wasn't a movie, you know, it's still only 30 seconds, it's still not a movie. So I'm still desperate and hungry to get into the, you know, legitimate filmmaking. And, of course, with the with the high profile Superbowl commercials, I started getting calls in the studios. And so, I got the call from Columbia offering me a romantic comedy, because they obviously thought, Oh, well, he does comedy. So we'll do that. And then I got a spy thriller from a UK company. And then I got the call from Jerry Bruckheimer, who said, you know, I've seen your commercials are really impressed and come in for a meeting. And let's, you know, talk about possibly making a film together. And so, of course, I, you know, rushed into that and had the big meeting with Jerry, you know, on the giant desk, you know, and that, you know, in some ways, the rest is history, but it was, it was a, you know, it was an awesome meeting. And I had to, he basically had a wall of scripts behind, it was in the days when scripts are printed on paper, and every producer would have a stack of them in their office with the titles. But Jerry didn't have just a pile, he had a wall of them, you know, there's probably a couple of 1000 scripts, and he turned around, he pulled three off which it looked like it was random, but I'm sure he knew exactly which one. And he threw them across the desk and said, Look, read those this weekend, and tell me which one of the one you want to make as a movie. And two of them were they were all action films, basically. Because that's what Jerry did. You know, he did, he did those seven films, two of them are pretty straight forward, you know, felt, you know, a bit cliched kind of action moves. But the third one was, was a film called Khan air. And I read this and it was quite a small film, it was like a character driven film, but the characters were so good. And even the names of the characters were cool, like Sally can't dance and Cyrus the virus and you know, that it just hooked me right, just for reading that I would have done it just for the name of the characters basically. And so I went back and I turned down the romantic comedy, I turned down the spy thriller, and I said to Jerry, out of these three I want to make on air. And he said, Well, it's, you know, it's very small film. And we need a summer blockbuster. So you got to go away, and turn this small character film, because we've written by Scott Rosenberg, who did, you know, things to do in Denver, when you're dead and beautiful girls, which are fantastic, but very small, you know, beautifully made, you know, character based films. And this was the same thing. And Jerry wanted a summer blockbuster. So I had to go away and sort of invent all these big events and sort of blow them up and make them you know, larger than life. And just, every couple of weeks, I'd go in, he said, Yeah, we've got to make it bigger, make it bigger. And so I just, you know, had a field day, just going in and sort of say, okay, how can we make this thing even bigger and more ridiculous than it was before? And, and that's, that's what you ended up with? That's why kinda looks like that.

Alex Ferrari 18:23
No, it's fascinating on air is one of those films that it's just one of those movies that sticks, it sticks with you for I mean, especially with that generation, when it came out. I saw it in the theater and, and it's, it's, you know, it's built a life up on its own over the years. And, you know, there's, there's so many legendary stories I hear, I heard, I heard Danny Trejo, I was watching a duck, recent documentary with him. And there was a story of him being on set with Con Air. And there was, obviously a lot of testosterone on that set. A lot of testosterone and all the actors are trying to, you know, I'm super tough, and I'm super tough, and I'm super tough. And Danny was quiet in the corner. And Nicolas Cage came up to the group because it was all of them sitting around trying to one up each other and how tough they are, and how scary they were in real life. And Nicolas Cage came up with this, the only one I'm scared of, is Danny, and Danny hadn't said a word. And it is like, what I do what I do, because it was that look that he had.

Simon West 19:25
But ironically, Danny was like the sweetest of the whole group to deal with, you know, it was like an inverse proportion. The tougher you were the nicer you were, you know, and it was, it was it was all the guys had never been near a prison. Were the ones that were or even a fight for that matter. Yeah, I mean anything but you know, but you can imagine Yes, there were 400 men in the desert for like three months. And I think there were like, at that time, there was only two women on the crew and it you know, so it did go a bit crazy because Have you get full 100 guys in the desert? Nothing to do in the sun beating down on you? Everyone did go a little bit Apocalypse Now.

Alex Ferrari 20:07
And now how did you how and how do you, you know, on a film like that, you know, it's your first big Hollywood production. You're working with Jerry Bruckheimer. This is your dream shot. So I'm assuming there's some pressure on you. Yeah, you've got, you've got 50,000 hours, you got 50,000 hours of airtime? There's no question. But you're at the show. This is the show at this point in your career. And if this fails, yeah, it's over. It's over?

Simon West 20:30
Absolutely. Well, I mean, I, I had done 50,000 hours, but short hops, you know, local local flights that were, you know, the longest shoot I'd been doing was, you know, two days, three days. This was 100 day shoot. And so by day, 30, I was, you know, down and out, I'd hit the wall, I was like, 30 days, because it was a giant production. And, you know, I was naive, I went in thinking, Oh, this is this is completely doable. And it was around day 30, that I just went, I don't sure if I can make it to the end. But you know, after a while, you sort of buckled down and it becomes a day job. And you and you start to think this is this will never end anyway, I'm just going to do this every day for the rest of my life, it's so long, there's so much work to do that, it's very odd when it finishes, because you you suddenly takes you by surprise. But yeah, there was a lot of pressure, I didn't realize that, because I was naive to you know, move, you know, the Hollywood films that they have, the studio has a list of your replacements already drawn up before, when you start filming. So if in the first two weeks, you completely screw it up, they already know who they're going to go to replace you with? Really, yeah. Afterwards, but, you know, I would be, I would have felt even more pressure than that. But I mean, you know, they, they protect you from that. So they don't want to, you know, completely crush you. So, you know, but it was tough getting people to take you seriously with the first film of that size. Because some crew members I had worked with, in commercials, you know, so they knew that I sort of knew what I was doing. But a lot of them, you know, was like, Who is this guy, they've given this massive film to on the first thing. So a lot of people I did have to, you know, come up against and go, you know, well, this is what's happening. And, you know, this is my first film, but you have, you basically have to follow the orders, because they've given me this responsibility. And we are doing this. And so let's say you know, 50% of people were very supportive. And then 50%, were a little tougher.

Alex Ferrari 22:34
Really, and that's, and that's something that a lot of directors don't understand when they first get on set is that when you know, I remember being the youngest guy on set as a director, and you know, the DP is 20 years older than me or the grips, or 20 years older than me or the production. And then they all have this experience. And they test you and they and a lot of them. They just feel like, oh, this kid doesn't deserve this shot, things like that. So I can only imagine at your level, the kind of I mean, this was a lottery ticket, someone literally handed you Jerry Lee handed you a lottery ticket. And I'm sure you had to deal with it. How do you overcome those egos on set those, that kind of those kind of barriers when you're working with crew members, maybe even keys, you know, like your DP or like your productions or, you know, keys who are fighting against your vision as a director, how do you handle that?

Simon West 23:26
Well, luckily, I mean, I didn't have that situation, because I, you know, I brought my own DP, my own production designer. And so my core crew were people I knew and trusted and supported me. And it was, it's more the peripherals that were, you know, you'd come up against, but all I could do was do a professional job and also don't, don't have any ego because, you know, I think that's what gets people's backup as if they sense that what you're doing or what your your decisions are based on ego rather than what's best for the film. Basically, everybody there is a passionate filmmaker, and wants the best film possible. And, you know, that's why people go into the film business is because they're really interested in it. And I was I loved the idea when I did a big complicated crane shot, you know, and it took a while to get that I'd run over to the monitor to see how it went. But and I'd look around and there'd be 20 people looking over my shoulder because you know, the grips wanted to see if they did a good job the camera focus wanted to see if he did a good job and and everybody you know, actors came in to see what they done. So everybody basically wants to do a really good job. So if if they sense that you're the same, and you're just there to make the best film, then they forget whether you've done five films or no films and and it's only if it's if a director brings his ego on set and is trying to demand respect through you know, position or you know, and it's just flexing muscles and usually Uh, you know, it's a, it's a cover for insecurity, I think, you know, they, they're panicking and they don't know what they're doing. And it comes out as ego. And it's the same with difficult actors. Usually, I found that actors are that are really talented. And luckily, you know, I came in at a very high level. So I'm dealing with, you know, people that have won Oscars, and I've got 30 years of experience, and I've done and these people are very talented and operating a very high level in their field. And when people are good at something, they're usually very secure in it. And, and so they're not, you know, they don't, they're not difficult, it's, it's usually when someone's very insecure, and what they do and think they're faking it, or they think they're not very good that they end up being a problem, because they're sort of diverting attention from what they think is their failings. So I haven't, you know, out a problem like that with, with all those big guys, you know, whether it's Nick Cage, or John Malkovich, or John tussock, all those guys didn't have a problem at all, because they were very good at what they did. And so they were very comfortable in playing in that world. And also, we created a really, you know, it was a fun, it was a fun film to make, because, you know, you get to see those great lines. And all these actors, which basically independent film, they, you know, they're used to doing costume dramas, or little Indies in motel rooms. And suddenly, they're on this giant film set. And Malkovich has got a pump action shotgun in his hand, and is shouting, you know, crazy lines. And they're having the time of their life. So why would you be and also they're being paid four times more than they've ever been paid. Because, you know, Jerry's got the massive checkbook. So that's how I ended up with such a great cast is because Jerry just said, just pick all your favorite actors. And when you've got that huge, you know, big brother of him and the studio behind you, you can, no one can say no, really, because it's a really fun, you know, enterprise, it's great script. And they're being paid handsomely, that everybody is there, you know, for a very good reason. They're having a really good time. So, it wasn't as bad as people think. Like, suddenly you've got 20 big actors, they're all going to be complete pain in the ass. You know, occasionally one person has a bad day or something, I'm sure, like we all do. But generally speaking, you know that everyone was enjoying it. And you know, I mean, it's the waiting around. To be honest, the work is never the problem. Set up the way sometimes, that's when people get oh, do I have to wait another, you know, for this lighting or this set or the stump to be set up? The actual acting they love to do so as long as you can give them a thing to do. They're, they're happy.

Alex Ferrari 27:39
So I have to ask you, there's one scene this gun in Canada that I there's many but there's one that I really have to ask you. This is a stunt. And I think I know it's practical. But I have to ask how the hell you did it? Which is the plane dragging the Corvette in the air and smashing into the tower? Yes, well that was that's practical right.

Simon West 28:27
Yes, it mostly because the thing is that, you know, kinda remember when it was made, there was CG around but it was very expensive. And it was a you know, it was it was only Jurassic Park or and people that could afford it. And, or to make it look good. And I was always, you know, a devotee of doing it for real and in front of the camera and seeing it. And so there's almost no CGI in a con. It's all done in front of the camera, the full scale. Well, we did do quite old school miniatures. So yeah, a lot of fun. So, you know, we did we flew a real plane over Vegas with smoke pouring out the back of it. And there were endless phone calls to the police of people saying there's a plane crashing over Vegas. And it's, you know, smoke pouring out of it. So, you know, we did things like that for real. And then we actually did for the you know, hitting the hard rock that was a massive model. So it was beautiful scale model that was probably 30 feet across this plane into a you know, 3050 foot version of the hard rock guitar. And we built the whole Vegas strip in miniature on Van Nuys Airport. So, you know, we had all the buildings with miniature neons and they're all about you know, 12 feet high. And we had radio controlled cars going up and down the strip and then fine Oh, I mean, it was absolute, you know, right for for, you know, kid in the sandbox kind of feel And then a lot of Israel, we had a plane that actually drove down Vegas Strip, it had a bus in it, they gutted out a real plane, put a bus in it, and they could actually drive it down the Vegas Strip without any wings on it and hit cars and things like that. And then the final one, the final one was another play, we had about three real planes. And the final one was the one that crashed into the Sands Hotel, which, you know, it's kind of a well known story, but Sands was going to be blown up. And, you know, I originally was going to, I wanted to hit the casino opposite the one with the volcano. And because I wanted, because it had a big lake, and I wanted to crash the plane into the lake, I had, and then it go underwater, I had a whole underwater sequence worked out, and then it would hit the volcano and the volcano would explode. And it was all going to happen. And then Steve Wynn who, who ran that, that hotel showed me around, and I saw how the volcano worked. And I show how the water pumps work. So every aspect of we planted all that. And then he said, Just send me the script, you know, and for the final sign off, so I sent him the script, and then I get a call back saying, Oh, we you can't crash into our, you know, this script is to, you know, don't we're a family organization, because at that time, Vegas was trying to portray itself as you know, as a family resort. And so they didn't, you know, with a bunch of criminals crashing into the thing was not what their image wanted to be at that time. So sorry, but you know, you could go and do it's bad for image. So suddenly, I had no location, but then I was reading the LA Times on a Sunday, and I saw they were blowing up the Sands Hotel. And in a few weeks, so call them up. Last night, I said, Look, can you delay blowing up the hotel for a couple of weeks while we build a whole set in front of it and put a huge plane on a ram and send it into into your casino and they agreed. So you know, there was a mad rush to build this rig wear for size plane was rushed down a ramp into the Sands Hotel. And as we were building it, they were slowly nibbling away at the back of the casino, knocking more and more of it down until it was just you know, the front part left. And we finally got it done in time. And it was a one shot. That was one of those classic Hollywood, you know, I couldn't shoot it in parts like you would normally do with an action film, because it was one plane and it was one casino. And once that plane was moving, there was nothing going to stop it. So that's when I had the 17 cameras, all hidden in bushes and inside the plane and inside the casino. And, you know, we and, you know, the night came and they closed off the strip and 5000 people lined up to watch it. And they pressed the button. You know, as the sun was coming up, and this thing went down the this 50 ton plane went down the ramp and the cable that was pulling it snapped at the last minute. And it just stopped on the edge of the ramp on the ramp and it was teetering. And if it went over, it would smash itself to bits and that we couldn't even those that buy another aeroplane, certainly not in that time or anything. But luckily it just sort of stopped and teetered on the edge and didn't go over. So we had to sort of D rig D ring all the cameras and come back the next night and set it all up again. And but you know most of those things were done in camera that the the Corvette hitting the everything in that sequence is real. Apart from the the wide shot of it being dragged through the air, because that was kind of aerodynamically impossible, it would have just hung down. And I was wondering about that probably crashed the plane or something. So that's the only CG shot in the whole thing. Everything else is either real, you know, full size real or miniatures.

Alex Ferrari 34:01
That's insane. That's absolutely insane. So I have to ask you, I mean, as directors, you know, we always there's always that one day on set, that the entire world is coming crashing down around us. And we feel like we're never gonna make it. It sounds like every day was like that for you on Khan air or in many of your movies. Is there any any day that stood out its situation where you're like, Oh my God, I don't think we're gonna make it through this day. And what was that thing? And how did you get over and it could be on Connor or any of your films.

Simon West 34:29
Yeah. Well, I mean, apart from that one thing that it was, was probably I guess it was, I mean, it did happen a lot. You know, because we were doing complicated, fiddly stuff that was in camera. We couldn't fix it with CGI or painting out I think it had to work. And then there was another incident I'm gonna guess which was the fire truck sequence at the end. There was supposed to be in Vegas, but I think Vegas was so sick of us by that time because we were moving from street to street and blowing stuff up and crashing and they said, Look, you know, they, they sort of stopped us giving us permits, basically. And so we had to sort of scuttle back to LA. And, and I had to sort of do the sequences, firetruck scenes where you had to hide that it wasn't Vegas, and I couldn't, as I said, Now, you would just paint a CGI city behind it. So I thought, how can I hide that I'm in LA. So I thought, well, we'll do it in the tunnel. So I went to the like the third or fourth Street Tunnel, which number is but in downtown LA. And of course, there's no tunnel in Vegas at that time. But you know, we've we fudge that we say, Okay, this is this is a tunnel. And, and so we'll have the fire truck, you know, race through this. And then in the city said, Okay, you can have from 10pm to midnight? Because, in fact no, I think it was it was 5pm to 10pm because of the noise and all that something. And so it's basically at five hours to shoot this one big stunt which was basically diamond dog on the motorbike getting dragged into the that was standing on the back of firetruck, and Nick cages on a police motorbike, and he writes into the back of the fire truck jumps on the fire truck, and the motorbike explodes on the back of the fire truck taking out being Rames as diamond dog. And it was all set up. And and the idea was that by this time, we were sort of down from the usual 17 cameras only had seven cameras for this get to the end of the shoot and you're starting to run out of money and and it's slightly smaller stuff. But it still was a one off thing. And it was the fire truck going into the tunnel, the the motorbike being dragged into the back of it on a rig and then the explosion happening and had seven cameras set up. And of course the cameras get set up, you know, nice and quickly. They're all in position. But the rig the complicated rig to do this, we can't start rigging until five o'clock. So and we have to be off the street by 10. So the special effects guys are building the rig they're putting the cables in, they're putting the explosions in the explosives in there. They're rigging the bike, they're rigging the fire truck, the stunt men are practicing and and it's going it's going five o'clock, six o'clock, seven o'clock, eight o'clock, nine o'clock, and we've got to be off by 10 Every hour, I'm going to the especially Are you ready? Are you ready? And there's nearly nearly really, and I swear to God, no kidding. Five to 10. And we're supposed to be off at 10. He said, Okay, we're ready. And, but and so then all hell breaks loose. So the camera guys are all over by the coffee truck. Because they've been standing there, you know, for you know, four and a half hours doing nothing. So they're all eating, you know, doughnuts and coffee, they're not next to their cameras. And the guy, that guy the stunt guy in the fire truck has fallen asleep. Because you know, he's been sitting in that truck waiting to go for five hours. And so the ad the first assistant director picks up the radio and says down the radio because we got five minutes to do this to the radio to the guy, the standby shouts on the radio, are you ready to go. And the stung Oh hit all he hears is go. He waited up, pushed his foot on the accelerator and heads off down. And this thing is all automatic. So once that fire trucks rolling, it's also dragging the motorbike that is rigged to explode when it hits that there's no stopping it once it's going. So the so I rush over to the monitors and shout to the camera guys, you know, it's rolling as running, you know, go go go. So they all start running from dropping their coffee cups everywhere running to the cameras. And out of the seven cam out the seven cameras.

Some of them, like one gets an operator gets there but no focus puller, then another one gets the operator and a focus puller. Then there's three cameras that are rigged on the actual truck and the motorbike that are all rigged to one button and an assistant runs over presses that button. And those three cameras go so I go okay, I've got three automatic cameras. I can see those running on my monitor. I've got one camera on a crane. There's that slightly out of focus because there's no camera. There's no focus pull on that one. And I've got another guy that has a operator and a focus. So I've got, I've got as for good angles, this is going to be Oh, I'm supposed to have seven but I'll settle for four. And this thing is racing down the road. And that that moment the first assistant runs down the road, trying to stop the firetruck go stop, stop, stop. So there's the assistant camera on the three cameras that were on one button hears the word stop and presses the stop button on the three cameras. So I went for Four and a half cameras to now I'm down to one and a half cameras running. And just as he does that, it happens the the motorbike hits the fire truck explodes, boom, I've got I've got one shot, and and one slightly out of focus shot. And that's what's in the movie. You know, that's what you have to do you have to go,

Alex Ferrari 40:21
You gotta roll, you gotta roll with it. It's so it I love hearing stories like this, because so many, you know, so many young filmmakers coming up, they just like think, oh, you know, it's Hollywood, there's a big budget movie, everything's running like a well oiled machine. Shit happens at every level all the time, because filmmaking is one of the most complicated situations.

Simon West 40:44
And everything you do is the first time it's been done in that particular configuration. Yeah, we've all done stunts and shots a bit like that. But it's never been done on that street with that amount of equipment, isn't that right? And so it's a sort of handmade, everything's handmade each time? You know, and, you know, and it's, it's difficult. It's so it goes wrong, you know.

Alex Ferrari 41:06
So let me ask you, you've I mean, you've directed so many amazing action movies and action sequences throughout your career. What makes a good action sequence? Like when you're conceding the the construction of an action sequence? What is what are some key things that you constantly are looking for when you're building it?

Simon West 41:26
Well, yeah, I get asked that a lot by, you know, young filmmakers coming up and want to know, because they watch a lot of action films now. And it's hard to dice, you know, discern what is better about some than others, in some ways? Or, you know, is it the bigger explosion is it the, you know, the, you know, the more hits in the fight, but to me, I was telling you that basically, with an actress he was you got to tell a story. That is that's within its the works within itself. So, you have a whole film that you, you're telling your story, you're beginning, your milling, middle and your end, but you should do that with every action sequences, as well. So make sure the audience understands what's supposed to happen in the action sequence, because I think sometimes, we will think just like, if we shake the camera a lot, if we have a lot of chaos, and it just goes on and on and it's really loud, then that will be satisfying. And that, to me is not a satisfying action sequence, you want to have a lot of cause and effect, because you're going to understand, like, your hero needs to get from here to there. And these are the obstacles in the way. And, you know, this is the first obstacle that hits him, you know, have you shot this in a way that your audience understands what that obstacle is? And then he is clever, or physically, you know, has enough prowess to get past that obstacle. But there's another one coming in at the end, you know, do you have three to five depending you know, what kind of sequences but that to me the clever, the clever, those obstacles and the clever the way that he overcomes them, the more satisfying it is, but you got to understand it as the thing you've got, the audience has to understand, oh, he, he was victorious in that moment. But okay, but he's not going to be in this because I can see why this is difficult. And, you know, I think one of the good ones I think, I would say for students to watch is, is Terminator two. There's some great, great constructive, because, you know, James Cameron is like me is a bit nerdy on the technical stuff and likes, you know, likes how the physics works of an action sequence and how the practical sides like what would happen if a if a truck flipped on its side like this? How far would it slide? If it slid? And then it it one end of it hits something? How would it spin? And how would you know, what's a cool way to get out of the way of that thing spinning? And so you, you can, if you're a bit nerdy about physics, action sequences are great, because they're all about cause and effect. And you have the sort of emotional journey of how does the hero overcome it, but you can also have, for me, it's more like, you know, the mechanics as well as the MacGyver of it, you know, it's like, set up a problem, how do you fix it? But I think, you know, if you watch something like, you know, the sequences in Terminator two, that's a really good lesson, and you understand every single thing that happens in it, nothing's too, you know, obscure or too fast, or you don't understand what happened or it happens for no reason, just like there's an arbitrary, something arbitrarily explodes for no reason. There's something only explodes if explains how that thing, you know, fired into it, and why did it catch fire? And then when it caught fire, what did it then do? So to me, if you took out an action sequence, that of an action film, you should be able to understand everything that goes on in it, and it could it could play as a short film, you know, you should be able to take the action sequence and go, Oh, here's my, here's my two minutes short film. And, you know, what do you think of the story and you should understand it.

Alex Ferrari 44:52
Now, you also worked on another another film called Expendables. To which man when I I heard you were on board for the sequels like this make this makes sense. This makes sense. Because no slide did the first one. And, you know, and I mean, so there's just a lot a legend and you know, as a writer, as a director, I mean, he's Yeah, he's a walking legend. How was it? I went, this is the thought that went through my head when I heard you were on and I'm like, Okay, this makes sense. They need someone like Simon to deal with the testosterone that's on that set. It didn't. I mean, you're talking about Vaughn, Dom and Lungren and Stuart Snagger, and Willis and in state and all these guys, how did you approach directing? That kind of, I mean, some of those guys are absolutely legends. And some of them are just just really big action heroes. How did you approach because it's just seems like so massive, and an undertaking just dealing with that. And then also trying to tell the story, and also trying to one up the action of the first one, and so on and so forth.

Simon West 45:55
Yeah, well, I mean, the first thing was sort of, you know, getting past the sly of it all. Because, because I, you know, I, I met sly, you know, and had, you know, had lunch with them. And I said, Look, you know, are you okay, with me taking over this, because, obviously, you know, what you're doing, you know, and, but I think the first one nearly killed him. So, you know, when he, you know, if you're writing it, directing it, starring in it, and, you know, it's just a lot to do. And, you know, and he's throwing himself at it. I think he just didn't want to go through that again. And he said, No, no, you know, it's your film, you do what you want. And he, you know, so he said, I'm just an actor on this. And so, you know, and I said, Look, I don't want to screw up your franchise, you know, I don't want to, you know, you set it up the first one, and I come in, and, you know, put it, you know, in the trash can. So, you know, it's probably more pressure, then, you know, a normal studio hire, because, you know, the guy that started it is on the on set every day, but he was really supportive, you know, and he would come on set and go, Wow, this is great, this is the set, this is better than the first one is this. And I think he was so relieved not to have to solve all the problems and not have to, you know, do the hours, and he enjoyed being an actor on it, you know, and so he gave a very relaxed to the funny performance because he was in enjoying it. And, and I think we know, in terms of all the others, you know, there's definitely a pyramid on set with sly at the top of it. So, you know, I used that sort of the slight, you know, power to it. So it was never a problem. Because if sly was happy, everyone was happy, because, you know, they all look up to him. He is the Godfather, you know, of that world. And so he got, he gets a lot of respect for them. And so they, they were as good as gold. They were, they were like, very well behaved. And because because it's like,

Alex Ferrari 47:48
slap, slap, slap, slap, em around.

Simon West 47:52
They never had to but, you know, the, the inference was, you know, if anybody stepped out of line, they weren't gonna get the slice slap, but you know, and then you're gonna have you know, Rambo, you know, screaming in your face. And, you know, all these other characters, Rocky, Rocky, yeah, you want me? Do you want Rocky and Rambo shouting at you and your face? So no, they weren't, they were good. And also, they were, you know, like, a lot of like, like music bands that, you know, bands that were big in the 80s and 90s, they were coming back touring. And now they're happy to be back, because they probably didn't enjoy it as much as they should have the first time around, because they're so busy trying to be successful and trying to deal with a new, what's it like being a movie star and all that stuff, that they get a second chance to come back, and they're gonna really enjoy it and appreciate it, because they went through all that once. But the fact to be able to do it again, you know, not many people get to do that in their, you know, later years, the thing that was they did in their youth that was there, you know, define them. So, they I think, you know, they were having, you know, a really good time just to be doing it again. And so it was it was fun for them.

Alex Ferrari 48:59
So yeah, so you'd ever had an issue because I mean, I've heard of other directors who work on sets with directors who they're directing. And just as alone, let alone the person created everything around it, and also a legend and also all this other stuff. So it sounds like you've never had any slight slight was just like I don't want to deal with it. Just I just want to do what I do. And you have fun. And as long as I'm good.

Simon West 49:23
And hopefully hopefully it was I was doing a good job. And that was mainly hopefully it was he was, you know, why he was you know, kind and respectful was because he could see that it was going well. I mean, I think if I'd been like, you know you're up, I would have heard about it very quickly. But yeah, and and also I have found I've directed a few directors and producers in the past and I found actually, they're actually very easy because they know the pain you're going through. They're empathetic. They go like You know, I'm not gonna give this guy a hard time because I, I know what it's like when an actor gives you a hard time. And I know he's got 50 Other things on his brain this morning, and he's got, you know, budget problems. And he's got, he hasn't slept for two months. And so I've found people that have been behind the camera actually treating much better than people who have no idea and I've done it the same myself when I've gotten in front of the camera for like little cameos or something for other people's films or mine, and I'm, and I've looked at the camera, and I've looked at the lights, and I go, Oh, my God, how did these actors do it? This is really hard. Oh, you know, and we get, you get, you know, suddenly you you cut them a lot more slack because you realize how confusing it is to be on the other side of the camera staring at 200 People in lights and you know, and you have no idea who's standing behind you or next year or it's very confusing. So I think it goes both ways. But I actually, I direct in generals daughter, John Frankenheimer. And, you know who was a hero of mine. And he, it was by sheer chance that he when I was shooting, that film on the Paramount lot. We were doing a night, we built a giant tank, that the Paramount lock their whole parking lot is a tank. So what they do is they everyone did not park there anymore. And they have a skydrop ride and you can actually flood the whole parking lot. And we were a night shoots. We built a giant tent over the parking lot and put our, you know, Savannah set in this swamp that we built in there. And John Travolta is in there having a big fight, you know, and doing water work. And because it was everybody that visited the Paramount lot for a couple of weeks, they see this giant black tent where they used to park. So all they would do they would come up to 10. And they poked their heads through to see what was going on. So every day, there would be different people poking and you know, like Robert De Niro's head pokes through, then, you know, like, all you know, famous actors, producers, everybody wants to know what the hell's going on in this black 10. So we've got, I wish I'd taken a camera, you know, set up a time lapse of everybody's coming through this hole. And anyway, one day was John Frankenheimer, and he knew most neufeldt The producer, so he came in and had a chat. And I was looking at him and he was and we were at I needed this one part that was a, a Jet A senior general in the army, but it was only at one scene, it was only you know, one and a half page scene, but the guy had to appear very important and a lot of weight and, and it's the sort of thing you do want to call in a favor. You know, if your powers with Robert De Niro Al Pacino, you go, like, can you come and do me a favor and do one scene because I need your gravitas. And but I was looking at John Frank and I'm and this statuesque guy was like six foot five or something. And he was very authoritative. And he's one of those old school Hollywood directors a huge shelter and a big, you know, guy, and he's done all these amazing films. And I thought, Well, I wonder if he would do it. And so I asked him, and he said, Yeah, he, you know, he hasn't really done any acting or much acting, I don't think but he agreed to do it. And he, he came on set. And he got in the uniform and you know, had the hair and makeup done. He said, you know, how do you want to shoot this this page and a half of dialogue, this long speech? And I said, I really want to just do all in one shot. So no cut. And he said, What? No cutting? Oh my god, you know, I've got to learn the whole thing. City. Yeah, if you don't mind, I don't really want to cut, you know, it's really important to be like one shot and said, Oh, my God, I gotta go and learn this. And I said to him, I said, Look, I you know, I hope you You okay with me directing you because, you know, this is only my second. Yeah. And you've you know, we're winning Oscars before I was born. And, you know, so. And he said, No, no, no, it's his greatest, you know, it's your film is your film. And, and again, on the set as I was directing, when I said, I said, Look, I hope you don't mind me saying, but could you just, you know, move over here and do this? He said, Yes, yes, yes, no problem. And he said, Gosh, it's really weird. He said, you know, all I want to do is please you, I've never been in that position before, you know, because he's a huge director that everybody wants to please Him. And he'd never been in the position where he wanted to please someone else. So it was really sweet. And, you know, great performance as well. Great.

Alex Ferrari 54:10
That's, that's remarkable. Is there anything that you wish someone would have told you at the beginning of your career that could have helped you? You know, that that one little bit of information like, oh, man, I wish I would have known this?

Simon West 54:22
Um, you know, I mean, it's no secret, you know, magic. I think it's, it's like with all, you know, exciting worlds, whether you're, you know, a rock star or a secret agent, or, you know, making movies as I think, is to try and appreciate it at the time, because all those incredible things you do, you're so busy stressing at the time and trying to do it. Sometimes it's hard to step back and go, Wow, what we're doing is really cool here and this is so I think there's to try and enjoy it along the way. Because you're so busy being hard on yourself. And I didn't know maybe maybe that's not possible, maybe everything would turn out terrible if you did relax and try and enjoy it. But that's what I would have told myself is, you know, you it's probably going to be okay. So why not relax a bit and enjoy it rather than, you know, beating yourself up and you got to work harder and harder. And you know, and it's, but I haven't, you know, you can't do the experiment the other way and go back and say, like, if you did just kick back a bit and enjoy it, would it? Would everything have turned out the same way? I don't know.

Alex Ferrari 55:29
Well, that's it. I mean, you were saying that with, you know, like Schwarzenegger and Willis and all these kinds of Chuck Norris and all these kind of guys that came back on, on Expendables to where they just, they probably had a ball, because they weren't probably not stressed. I'm like, I'm not the star of this lies dealing with that. I'm just here to have a good time and shoot some things, say some cool lines and hang out with my friends, you know, smoke some cigars?

Simon West 55:51
Yeah. And I mean, I have to say, I enjoy directing much more now than I did when I started. Because, because I do, you know, you have less to prove, I suppose that as you go on, right. And, and also, it's like, you've been through all those sticky situations, and you usually get out of it somehow. And so there's, you get a lot more confidence with age and experience. And so I definitely enjoy it now. Rather, before it was like, a task that had to be achieved and to win the fight and get it done. Now you I can actually enjoy the process. And, you know, so, you know, it comes with experience and doing it and you know, for a while, I suppose?

Alex Ferrari 56:31
Well, I mean, you've got more than 50,000 hours now, I think?

Simon West 56:36
The trick is not that, you know, not to fall out of love with it. I do know some people that, you know, fallen out of love with it, and really miserable, you know, and miserable to be around on the set, because they don't like it anymore. And but you know, they're sort of wedded to it. But I think if you don't like it anymore, you should definitely stop doing it. But because you're making everybody's life misery. But I you know, I definitely like it more more I do it. So it's you know, and I've been to

Alex Ferrari 57:04
And it shows, it shows in your work that you you know, the movies that you've stayed consistent, since Con Air. I mean, you've been working every you know, you pop out your your output is, is pretty good. It's not like you do one movie, you're not a Kubrick, you don't do one movie every eight or nine years. I mean, you're you're constantly working, whether in television, or in this, you're always working. So that's you can tell that you love what you're doing.

Simon West 57:27
Yeah, well, that would be really frustrating. I mean, I'm a huge Kubrick fan. And but it would be really frustrating for me to know that I was only going to do a film once every 5 6 7 8 years, that would be you know, heartbreaking, because there's only so many films you can make in a lifetime. And, you know, sometimes obviously, you know, some are better than others, because whatever reason, but you learn something on every one. And, you know, I think making any film is better than staying at home.

Alex Ferrari 57:58
You know, you're absolutely right. Now I'm gonna ask you a few questions to ask all of my guests I'm in what advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Simon West 58:07
Don't turn any opportunity down, you know, don't be too like, I have to make this kind of film I have to because I you know, I as I said, I went through all these different types of filmmaking from current affairs, two documentaries, that drama to you know, everything. Music videos, commercials, and I would say, just try and shoot as much as you can on anything, whether it's on your iPhone, or, you know, with friends on and any opportunity, a friend says, oh, you know, I want to be an actor. And but I need someone to shoot me doing something, go and do it don't go out. He's not very good. Or, you know, I haven't got time or I'd rather do that. Any opportunity do it because any connection you make with someone else who's also in that world, can leapfrog to another connection. And every anything you shoot gives you a little bit more experience. And a little bit more like Oh, I know, you know, like, I really want to do sci fi. Well, I want to do a sci fi I'm gonna shoot and then someone says, can you come and shoot this little comedy short film for me and you shoot the comedy you're actually I really enjoyed that comedy. Maybe I'll maybe I'll do some comedy. So I would just say shoot as much and as often as you can and don't be too precious don't sit around for the perfect situation. And you know and and working on films in any way you can I mean, I you know worked in props and art department and sound and camera systems on other people's films for a day here a day there. And it's kind of fun. You get to learn other people's jobs you meet other people and and work for free. So they'll have you you know, so they'll have you back or you know, they'll there's a reason to hire you is because you're free. And just work as much as you can and take every opportunity shoot anything you can.

Alex Ferrari 59:53
What is the lesson that what what did you learn from your biggest failure?

Simon West 59:58
What I guess what I learned And is no failure is total, you know, what I mean? Is that is that every every disappointment or failure, if you want to call it can be corrected to a certain extent in some way. I mean, that's the beautiful thing about filmmaking like a sequence, you know, one angle doesn't work you cut to another angle, one, you know, an actor doesn't isn't great, you know, in a performance, you can make the performance better through editing. If there's, there's always always I don't think any failure is total. And also, you know, there's a whole theory that, you know, you obviously, you don't learn anything until you fail at something, you know, and so you shouldn't look at the any kind of failure as a failure. It's more like a, you know, a learning experience. But also, none of that item for me, I don't know, it's lucky or whatever, but I never treat any failure as a total failure, it's always can be, you know, dragged back into be a 10% failure, rather than 100% failure, because you can, you can do something to fix most things, you know, situations from

Alex Ferrari 1:01:07
Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Simon West 1:01:12
I think he's pacing himself, he's like, not rushing. You know, the hardest thing in filmmaking and people don't realize, is time management, because you can make a fantastic film with unlimited time. And it's time, it's not even resources. I mean, if you've got a camera, that's basically what you need in a way of recording the sound. But if you had unlimited time, you can make the world's greatest film, if you've got the talent, but you know, every film you're on is a time pressure, it's like you're constantly doing a deal with yourself, if I if I take longer on the scene, I gotta take time off that scene. If I you know, if I rush to this scene, it's not going to be makes sense for the story. So I got to allocate my time in every minute of a film, you know, a professional film is accounted for, you know, you're supposed to do a certain amount of work per day, you know, per hour. And you have to stick to that plan. And that scheduling, that's very hard in an artistic endeavor to be so dictated to by time management. And that's the, that's the hardest thing is this is to get, okay, the discipline of saying, I've got it as good as enough, because I've got to get on and get all these other things. When really, you know, it's very rare that a director is in a position where he just can keep going, keep going, keep going until he absolutely satisfied because that's not a real world situation. And you know, that that's hard, but I mean, yeah, but the opposite is like, don't be panicking about time on Sunday. So I would, is, I think I've learned those not to rush and take time, because, you know, you can make a bad decision. If you rush. If you just take a couple more beads, you can make a better decision. And but it's it's that balance of don't rush, but you're still going to hit those time. deadlines.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:03
So you've never heard the term you've never heard the sentence ever uttered to you, Simon, all you have is time and money. How fun?

Simon West 1:03:10
Yeah, that would be. I mean, yeah, but I, you know, I have I do have questions, you know, like that. But do you? So you know, when they're scheduling with a sailor, well, how long would it take you to shoot the scene? And I go, Well, how long will you give me? Because I could shoot it in two minutes, the length of the dialogue, I could spend two weeks shooting the most incredible version of this scene with, you know, every conceivable angle and like beautiful lighting and tech and waiting for the sun to be in the right spot. I mean, how much will you give me I just need as much time as you're willing to give me you know,

Alex Ferrari 1:03:40
And I'll make it work with what you got to a certain extent. And last question, three of your favorite terms of all time?

Simon West 1:03:49
Oh, well, I mean, I there's so many I hate that question. Because it's three is hard to pin down. But I mean, I do love, you know, films that I grew up with and films at different times of my life. So, you know, sort of in my sort of teens there's a film called Withnail and I, with Richard II grant and Paul McGann it's a small comedy about to struggling actors in England and not many people in America know it because when I do mention it, people go on I haven't seen that. But in in the UK, it's a kind of a cult. You know, I've been on I've been on sets in UK and the camera crew will recite lines from the film to you because it's a cult. So but yeah, so I try encourage all Americans to see this film because it seems to be very well known in England but not in the States but school with nail and I and then films you know, at different stages in my life. And these are not necessarily you know, great classics. I mean, I love all the big classics, you know the David Lean movies and everything like that, but you know, everybody does but films that meant a lot to me. You know, a different parts of my life were things like you know, when I was very young, we'd be Chitty Chitty Bang Bang Bang. The fantasy of that to me as a you know, magical, magical a six or seven year old with me of that would have thought that was the most magical thing ever. And that would that was the sort of thing would get me into filmmaking is the fantasy because to me filmmaking is taking it to another world. And I, you know, because I have to confess I don't make very realistic films. They are, you know, they are quite fantasy and larger than life and operatic because I kind of want to be taken to another place I you know, I don't necessarily, I mean, I, you know, I watch other people's very, you know, great realistic films and love them, but my world is a bit more ridiculous in a way. But, you know, so and then, you know, and then that was, you know, my five or six year old, me getting into film. And then the 12 13 year old me was a film called swauk Melody, another English film that was written by Alan Parker and directed by walrus Hussain, produced by David Puttnam. And it's a it's a net gain. It's a small film set in a school in London in a kind of a rough part of London. And, and it's all sort of actors, there were 11 and 12. And it was just my life, you know, so it's the first time I went to the movies, and didn't see James Bond, you know, jumping off a cliff for, you know, Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs doing something, you know, this was my life, it was kids at school, but very realistically shot and they're getting up to all sorts of mischief. And they're really, you know, rude to adults. And they're kind of like, but it's very sweet. And so this is the sweetest soundtrack by the BGS, which is not the strongest point, not the strongest point, but the PG is less than every PG, so great. Yeah, they're great. You know, Saturday Night Fever and all that stuff. Yes, but not in this world. But the rest of the film is great. So I'd have to say like three films, they're not, you know, as I said, the big epics, but they meant something to me at different ages. My life, you know, and so that's where they were importantly, so when I say favorite, I'm not gonna go now I'm talking about I'm gonna watch them again now. Because

Alex Ferrari 1:07:09
I mean, you go, I mean, as you were talking, I'm like, what was the film, like, when I was coming up, like 8 9 10 years old, and the obvious one, Star Wars, et all those kinds of things. But there's something like Never Ending Story by Wolf. But Wolfgang, you look at that, and you're like, at that moment. You know, that was a very powerful movie. You know, to me and those kinds of things. It's, you know, I've heard I've heard the greatest, you know, some people like, Oh, I'd loved under the dragon. And I'm like, I loved under the dragon too. But is that on your top three is like it is it meant a lot to me when I saw it when I was 12, things like that. So it doesn't all have to be godfather.

Simon West 1:07:45
Exactly. I mean, I've watched Godfather, you know, how many 1000s I got it on every format ever made, you know, and I still watch it on TV with the commercials when it comes on, you know,

Alex Ferrari 1:07:56
Because we're ridiculous. Why do we do that when we could literally just get up, grab our blu ray. And that's happened to me multiple times. And I'm like, why am I just too lazy to get.

Simon West 1:08:08
But it's such a good film. You don't want to waste that 30 seconds of it. So those those epics are fantastic. But I think a film that means something to and also that probably led, you know, people like you and me into the business. You know, it needs even more because it's, you know, it's what we ended up doing. So,

Alex Ferrari 1:08:27
Simon, it has been an absolute pleasure and honor talking to you, my friend. I know I can talk to you for at least another five or six hours. But I appreciate your time. And thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your knowledge and your experiences with the tribe today and continued success my friend. I can't wait to see your next one. So thank you so much my friend.

Simon West 1:08:45
You're welcome. Lovely to talk to you.

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Need Distribution for Your Film? – Check This Out!
  2. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  3. Enigma Elements – Cinematic Tools & Assets for Serious Filmmakers
  4. Audible – Get a Free Filmmaking or Screenwriting Audiobook

IFH 596: The Art of Showrunning a Hit Amazon Show with Naren Shankar

Naren Shankar is the Executive Producer/Showrunner of the critically acclaimed television adaptation of the international best-seller science fiction novel series, The Expanse, an Amazon Prime Original Series from Alcon Television Studios.

Naren spent eight seasons as a Writer-Executive Producer and Co- Showrunner of the most-watched show in the world, CSI:Crime Scene Investigation. In 2011 he helped launch NBC’s Grimm as a Writer- Executive Producer.

Prior to CSI, Naren was an Executive Producer on the SyFy Channel cult hit series Farscape for The Jim Henson Company, and spent three seasons as a writer-producer on Showtime’s The Outer Limits.

Naren began his career as a writer and science consultant for Star Trek: The Next Generation, and he holds a PhD in Applied Physics & Electrical Engineering from Cornell University.

Naren has been honored with multiple Emmy nominations for Best Series, a WGA Award nomination for CSI’s two-hour event “Grave Danger” directed by Quentin Tarantino, and has received WGC and Saturn Awards for The Outer Limits, CSI, and Farscape. The Expanse won a Hugo Award for “Leviathan Wakes” in 2017 and was nominated in 2019 for “Abaddon’s Gate.”

Right-click here to download the MP3

Naren Shankar 0:00
If I have an idea for a character and or a moment and somebody goes, that's just doesn't make any sense this character would never do that. And if the argument is good, then change it.

Alex Ferrari 0:11
This episode is brought to you by Bulletproof Script Coverage where screenwriters go to get their scripts read by top Hollywood professionals. Learn more at covermyscreenplay.com I like to welcome the show Naren Shankar how're you doing Naren?

Naren Shankar 0:25
I'm good, man. How are you?

Alex Ferrari 0:27
I'm doing great, man. I'm doing great. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Man. I, I've I've watched many of your shows over the years, you've been you have a very unique story on how you got to where you are. And hopefully it's going to inspire some people along the way. So first question, sir. Why in God's green earth? Did you decide to go into the film business? When you have a real degree with real skills that could actually help the world?

Naren Shankar 0:53
Wait, wait, are you my parents? Oh my gosh. I you know, I did have I did have kind of a strange path into the business I, I started in when I went to university. I started as undecided pre med, medieval studies, classics, French literature, I didn't know what I wanted to do. My dad was a doctor. And so I told my parents, I was going to be pre med, I didn't really want to be a doctor. And I spent the first two years at Cornell in the College of Arts and Sciences. But in that time, I started thinking about, Oh, what happens after college and I was like, I don't think any things I really love are gonna get me any kind of job. So I had always loved math and science. I was kind of I think I'm a generalist at heart. And so I transferred into the College of Engineering and, and the College of Applied Engineering Physics. And I ended up staying all the way into the doctoral program. So I stayed at Cornell. So as I was, you know, in the midst of writing my dissertation and working in the lab, I just started going back to the things I love, which were history and literature and just started taking more and more courses in the arts college. And I literally remember the moment where I was coming out of this amazing course told by a professor guy named Walter LeFevre is amazing historian, he taught a course a two semester course in the history of American foreign policy. And we had this amazing lecture about the early republic and Aaron Burr. And like, I walked out of the I walked down the hall, and I was going back, and I could see my labs sort of on the other end, across down the street, and another quad as like, God, I just don't want to be an engineer. And I think I think what it was was, it was part of what happens when you're in the hard sciences is, you end up becoming more and more of an expert in the smaller and smaller corner of the universe. And I think that's what was happening with me, it's like I had this, you know, I was doing this thing, and it was really, you know, and it was my thing, and you're adding, you know, original research to the world, which is the whole point of a PhD program. But it just wasn't the thing, that kind of jasmine, it's like, you know, and, and I had also very early on my sophomore year, freshman year and sophomore year, I joined the Kappa Alpha Literary Society, which is a Greek letter, social fraternity, but it's also a literary society. And you do every two weeks, the the members would meet, and like we would, you know, do original writing and present it to the rest of the gang is a very nerdy geeky fraternity. It's like, really, I mean, but, but I think those are the things that really got me excited. And the friends I was around, you know, like, we loved movies intelligence. So after I finished my thesis, I had some friends out in the business, who are just who had come out to LA and we're breaking into the show business side of things. And I said, Come on, tell me screenwriter. And I was like, That sounds amazing. I'll do that. And it was super easy. It's super easy. You'll be oh, oh, Ignorance is strength. It's like, it's like, for me, it was literally because I had no concept of what how high the bar was or how difficult it is to break into the business. Had I known those things I might not have come. But I also I was I had skipped a couple of grades and I was really young. And so I started college and just turned 16 I had like my parents, you know, I told my parents, you know, just let me do this. And my parents, I think felt like oh, he'll just get it out of his system and then he'll he'll go and do something sensible because, you know, it's a good Indian kid is like doctor, lawyer, engineer, businessman. It's like that's that's those are the only things that are okay, you know,

Alex Ferrari 4:53
Screenwriter not so much.

Naren Shankar 4:54
There's no tradition of it. There's no idea of what that means. Even it's like like, you know, was gonna pay you for that.

Alex Ferrari 5:02
And so right, I can write, who's gonna pay me and so no one's gonna pay you.

Naren Shankar 5:06
Exactly, exactly. So, but they were so sweet and they were so supportive. And yeah, and I came out and and started to make this such a long story. But in my in my fraternity in Kappa Alpha, it my best friend was Ron Moore, who created Battlestar Galactica. And he at the beginning of his career, he was actually a political science major. And we had a third friend who, who was the guy who wanted to come out to LA and be in the business. And so he went out to drag Ron out there a couple of years later, after Ron decided he didn't know what to do with his life. And then a couple of years after that, run convinced me to come out and I slept on his couch for like eight weeks and, and so that was literally the chain that brought me in and, and through Ron, I got a, a spec script to Star Trek The Next Generation that brought me to the attention of the producers. And then that led to a Writers Guild internship on the program. And that really was the start of it, it led to a staff job a little while, then a little while after that.

Alex Ferrari 6:19
So that's the long story. That's obviously like a standard Standard plan that every screenwriter, only I can only imagine the conversation with your parents. I know the conversation that I had, but I didn't have a PhD in engineering.

Naren Shankar 6:39
My mom was so sweet. years later, years later, after things were going well, it's like, because I remember like, you know, I just threw, like some suitcases and stuff in my car. And I drove out of sight. My parents were like, waving it back. Years later, my mom said, As soon as your car goddess got out of sight, I burst into tears.

Alex Ferrari 6:59
I went to I have kids, I would just I would be like, Oh, my God, I can't. Because that's one of the reasons why I do on the show, like, how on God's green earth that this this engineer and physics get into, into into writing for television, it's just,

Naren Shankar 7:17
You know, there's, there's a part of it that is actually I think that's like, you know, Self knowledge is somewhat important is that, I don't think I would have been a good engineer. I mean, I certainly had aptitudes for it. But part of what what I, I had problems with is I was a little impatient, you know, I got bored doing the same thing, you know, for focused amount of time. I loved certain aspects, but I loved it. It's an incredibly creative field. And people, you know, don't they really misunderstand the hard sciences and they go, that's not you know, that's not creative, like music, or, you know, or writing, it's absolutely as creative as all of those things. It's just in a different way. But, but if you don't have the sort of, you have to be meticulous you have to be you know, there's so many factors that when I took a look at myself, I was like, I just don't think that's me. And so, maybe there was one job actually, that I came so close to getting that I absolutely would have taken, I I got a I gotta get down to the last two people at Apple Computer in in the, in the early 90s, that I was going to be the engineering software evangelist in the one of the absolute bottom terrible times darkest times in Apple history. But but they flew me out to Cupertino, I interviewed and I just didn't get the job, that job I would have taken. And now I look back I go, Oh, would have been in Silicon Valley in the 90s may not have sucked.

Alex Ferrari 8:47
If that's what they paid you in stock options backs up. And so yeah, $8 it was $8 a share something.

Naren Shankar 8:56
Anyway, so, you know, but But you know,

Alex Ferrari 9:01
Being self aware, it's very important being understanding that you're like, you know, what, I've had, I've had staff jobs twice in my career industry and been fired, probably from both. And it's just, I just am not, I work well with others, but it's not something I can't It's not me, you just have to be aware.

Naren Shankar 9:18
Yeah. It's a tough thing. And it's like, you know, being in a staff. It's so interesting, like, you get different. It's so personality driven. It's like, especially television, it's like, you know, it's like it is a I've seen playwrights who are amazing, who just can't deal with being room feature guys who are like, completely used to like going off for weeks and thinking about three lines of dialogue. It's like, they can't handle the pace. It's like, and you know, and people who are just not gregarious, because it's such a social thing. It's such a it's such a group collaboration, you know, it's like a true collaboration. If you have the right mindset, and you enjoy that it's an incredibly fun experience. That's one of the things I love about television is part of the reason I think I've been And then for so long.

Alex Ferrari 10:01
So you so you get on to Star Trek Next Generation, which is arguably one of the the pinnacle sci fi shows, arguably television shows. I mean, it was just so well written, it was so bad. It's just so well written. I mean, if you go back to those episodes now and you just like damn, and they hold up the effects and the makeup, maybe not so much. But, but this, but the writing is solid, some of those storylines. I remember watching them in high school when I was coming up, I was just like, damn, and this was really well, well written. What were some of the lessons you learn from that first job? I'm like, when you walked on the set, for the first time? What was that feeling like?

Naren Shankar 10:37
Well, it was amazing. I mean, you know, the thing was, Star Trek was an unusual show, in a lot of ways in an unusual structure. It was. It was the first show that was, you know, really the kind of open the syndication market. I mean, this is a long time ago. And so, you know, it wasn't a network show. But it was a very high profile show. It was the reboot of this thing, which had been, you know, before the word reboot existed. You know, it was this thing that was kind of Beloved, and it was, but it was its own thing, but very different from the show. It went through its own kind of struggles at the beginning. What was unique about it, I think, was as a learning experience, because what had happened on next generation was at the end of the third season, which I think that was third third season, I think, was Ron's first season on the show, the entire writing staff got fired, except for Ron and Michael Piller, who was who was the showrunner kept on on and kind of rebuilt the show and in His image in a way and just in terms of how stories were told, and, and, and when I got there. By the time Star Trek ended the last two seasons. I was like a freelance in season five, and then six and seven, I was on the show. It was it was a very young staff, it was everybody was a first timer. It was their first gig in the business. It was Ron, Ron Moore, Brandon Braga, Renee, Murray and myself. And we were the core staff, Jerry Taylor was a was our boss, supervising producer who basically ran the room with us. But it was just kind of like all first timers, we had never, you know, never had other gigs before, it was really really spirited, good. You know, we all liked each other. We're all still friends to this day. It's you know, and, and Jerry had had, you know, essentially taking the position like, look, this is a room where best idea wins. That was like, you know, Mike Nichols, like his, his mantra. And so the arguments were passionate, but it was fun. Nobody was mean to anybody. And Michael was like, he was a really good editor, he gave us great discipline on how to break a story. So as a, as a school, it was a tremendous school for learning how to how to do sort of the work of television writing. And so it was, it was great discipline, I think that all of us took, you know, into, into our careers into into the rooms that we have run ourselves and the shows that we've made. So that was kind of amazing. There was also like, there was this rigid wall between the writing staff and the production because Rick Berman was in charge of sort of, like the, that side of it. Initially, like writers weren't allowed to go to the set. They didn't want us anywhere near the cast. It was like, yeah, it was, that's, that's slowly changed over the years. And, you know, I think, you know, being fair, as, as wonderful, as many of the episodes of next generation are, and there are some terrific episodes that really hold up to this day. You know, it was, it was very much a creature of its time, I think it owes a lot of, to like television in the 80s, highly episodic Instructure you freaking out, it's a kind of hitting the reset button every week. It was also, you know, going to the people of the planet with the problem. You know, it was like, it sort of had that vibe.

Alex Ferrari 13:57
There was a red shirt, there was

Naren Shankar 13:58
Exactly that guy, you know, that guy was, you know, he was not gonna make it. And so, you know, but and it slowly loosened up. I always, you know, I think Ron has said this too, in his interviews over the years, you know, what he did with Galactica was as much a reaction to, you know, to next generation, you know, in a lot of ways, like, Deep Space Nine got much, you know, I think, much more complex and dirtier in many ways in good ways. That was always a struggle the young guys had with the bosses, because they felt like that they were like, This was Gene, you know, Gene Roddenberry's? You know, dictum, this is this is the story that we wanted to tell and how we wanted to how next generation was people were kind of perfect, and they had gotten past all of the terrible parts of human age and we were like, but that's where the fun is.

Alex Ferrari 14:47
You have no conflict. You have no no story.

Naren Shankar 14:49
That's that's, that is really the issue. And the first thing that I wrote the first script that I wrote with Ron was was the first duty which was about like, move the world. Keaton's character Wesley Crusher, like lying, you know, to protect his friends and we're like, he would never lie. And like, of course he would lie. And that was, he's a kid. Exactly, exactly. It's like, and that's how you view the world. And so, you know, those are the some extent that show was like, a bit like writing in a straight jack in some ways. In many other ways. It was a phenomenal training ground and a great way to learn the discipline of writing. And so I look back very fondly on those years. And it was a great staff. And I think it's very rare to this day, when you have so many, like all of us first timers, we've all gone on to do so many things. It doesn't always it doesn't always happen that way. And I think it was a special staff.

Alex Ferrari 15:46
And it was an anomaly, too. I mean, that was just a special place at a special time. When things like that happened. It was a wild, it was almost wild, wild west, like in like to bring in a group of first timers in a writer. That's not doesn't happen now does it?

Naren Shankar 16:02
It doesn't it doesn't. Because what happened was one was hired off of a spec script, Renee was hired off of a spec script, Brandon was an intern for the Television Academy. I was an intern through the Writers Guild. Again, no experience in the business. But part of it was also in a successful as next generation was it was also a backwater. It was like it was like, oh, Star Trek, it's just its own weird thing. I like coming off of that show. Agents wouldn't even want to read a Star Trek script. They wouldn't. It's like, Oh, can you do like a like a real show? It's like, that was kind of the attitude.

Alex Ferrari 16:35
Yeah, I do remember that. It was Yeah. It was like, Oh, that's a movie they do for the geeks. And that's before Geekdom was where the money was.

Naren Shankar 16:44
In it took it took like, I do remember, like, probably about 10 or 10 years later, or so after leaving next gen. Somebody told me Oh, they want people to come from the Star Trek school. Because they understood that, that that, you know, he's a sports metaphor. And that coaching tree was actually incredibly applicable to anything, which is what we always would say it's like, you know, in the context of a science fiction, in the context of Star Trek, we would do a legal show a murder mystery, epic drama. It's like, you know, our version of Shakespeare and war. It's like everything. It's like that science fiction was a superset of genres. It was never treated that way. And I think that the business actually became educated to it. And and now it's like, I mean, you know, here, you know,

Alex Ferrari 17:29
Here we are now. We have geek beyond geek beyond everything. No, there's no outskirts now. No, I told I told you before we started work before we started recording that you and I have a connection. So yeah, yeah. Okay. Tell me. Orlando 95.

Naren Shankar 17:46
Orlando. 95.

Alex Ferrari 17:48
SeaQuest.

Naren Shankar 17:50
Oh, my God. Yes.

Alex Ferrari 17:52
I was working downstairs, out on fortune hunter. For Fox.

Naren Shankar 17:58
Oh my god.

Alex Ferrari 18:00
Remember that? Do you remember I do remember that show I worked on I worked as a PA on an office PA on fortune hunter. And then on my side hustle. I worked on the other show that was right underneath your office, which was us, which was the sketch comedy show, syndicated show, and I was working. Yeah. So I was there during that season. I was there when I was there. In between the last season so was when Roy was his last Roy's last writers last season. And then Michael Ironside. So that's where I went to I went to Full Sail.

Naren Shankar 18:32
That's that's the that's the that is the third season of the show. That's the one year I was on. seaQuest fortune hunter was that was that Steve Aspersa show?

Alex Ferrari 18:40
No, that was Boris. Oh, God, the guy who did Swamp Thing was his big thing. He did swamp show Okay, then. Yeah. So fortune hunter he was it was fortune hunter was on for one season did 12 episodes. And then it got canceled. But it was on Fox it was I was so excited to just be working on a show that I can go on on Saturday night and just look like my name's My name is like, like, you know, and then

Naren Shankar 19:06
I never got down. I never got down to Orlando because we had no I never got down because we all the writers and posts were based in in Los Angeles right at Universal. Okay, yeah, yeah. And the bosses went down to Orlando but I never got to and I think I was supposed to but we got canceled like after after 13 or 12 episodes that season. I can't remember but yeah,

Alex Ferrari 19:30
Because I didn't know anything. I knew a couple of the guys up and I mean pas and stuff like that. But I was on the set of requests all the time and walking around and I'm crazy.

Naren Shankar 19:41
Crazy time man. It was bananas. Bananas.

Alex Ferrari 19:47
It was insane. I remember I remember working because I worked at MGM. And then I also am studios. I think for one of the shows and then they they set up at Universal and man like the kids the star or the kid star would like jump out of the tours would have to stop. And yeah, and then there's like Royce rider walking around him like, where am I? And this is our Lando I know, I know that is our that is our slight connection, sir.

Naren Shankar 20:16
God, I was sad actually, I never got to go down there because the show looked great. I mean, it had many, many, many problems on the page, but the physical production and the sets were beautiful. They were really fun.

Alex Ferrari 20:32
So the set that I worked on was right next door to the soundstage was right next door sequence and then UCC quest props all over the damn Yeah, I mean, there was just so many vehicles and stuff like that was so cool, man. But again, when you're starting out when you're starting out, like it was like the coolest thing ever. And it was the 90s

Naren Shankar 20:51
Well, it was you know, I mean, I do remember those days, like we would go down to we would go down to the bridge when it wasn't obviously in use and eat lunch down there on the enterprise. Because what was cool about the set would close up and for those days, I mean, it was like, you know, internally let the ceiling would come down. And so you can just sit on the bridge and like, you know, eat a sandwich. It's kind of cool.

Alex Ferrari 21:14
Speak to my Subway sandwich. These are the things that like you people don't like yeah, I was like eating lunch on the enterprise. Like, you know, you take those are the kinds of little things that no one really knows about. No one hears about, but that's what you're doing in the production when you're there. Oh, yeah, I used to sneak on I just sneak on the set of sequence. Yeah, of course, constantly, constantly on the weekends when nobody was there. I bring relatives in from out of town. And I would just walk in.

Naren Shankar 21:42
They have those those built in tombs for Darwin, which were for real. I mean, it's like, animatronic fishes like and it's like that is that was a beautifully designed set. It really was.

Alex Ferrari 21:53
It was it was pretty stunning. It was pretty it for its time. It was insane.

Naren Shankar 21:57
Oh, yeah, absolutely. It was insane.

Alex Ferrari 22:00
Now, so how many times so you've been working on set for for I mean, you've been working in television for many years now. Can you pinpoint one of the worst days of something going wrong? Like some crap, something the days you're losing light, something, something really bad happens? And in how did you overcome that day?

Naren Shankar 22:21
Well, the one that really kind of sticks out is I was doing a show for NBC called UC undercover. It was it was, you know, early 2000 was on for one season. So it was 2001. And so I had written it was basically about the US Marshal Service. And it had Odette Farah was the star of your Farmiga was that was kind of her first show. I mean, it's like so great look great production. Shane Salerno created it. It was his first show, as a show runner, and I was I was the number two brought in there. I had written a script about domestic terrorism, a couple of psychopathic brothers who will like

Alex Ferrari 23:10
I already I already know where you're going.

Naren Shankar 23:14
And and the script opened with a sarin gas attack at a football game in which like, you know, I had like 100 people die. And my wife, my wife would read my scripts, and she goes, That's too many. That's just ridiculous. It's like, there's no way that that could happen. So I write the script, we are in prep, and I'm in bed, and I get a call my phone rings at Shane. And he goes, tariffs just slammed into the World Trade Center. We're throwing out the script. We're shutting down to talk later. Oh. And, and, and it is it was like, that was a surreal moment. We went back to the office. Like two days later, a day later. The whole writing staff was like, why don't we do?

Alex Ferrari 24:03
Yeah. Anyone living during that time? No, you just knew.

Naren Shankar 24:07
What do we do? We're in an absolute days. We have no script. The director who was being Ken Fink, who I worked with, you know, for years on seaQuest. Phenomenal director. We had to drive him up to Vancouver because there's no planes. So he can we put them in a truck with a Teamster. And we drove them up to Vancouver, because we needed a director to prep a show, which we no longer had a script for. And there's this place in Vancouver that was called crease clinic. It was a it was an old old hospital from like the built in like the 40s or 50s. And it had become it closed down and it become like this place in Vancouver. You could turn it into anything. It could be a hospital, it could be a prison, it could be it could be whatever, you know, and so film shot. It was it was it was used for locations for a million things over the years. And so Shane goes, Okay, we're gonna we're gonna book that thing. Um, we're gonna make a prison riot episode. And we're like, okay, and so the whole staff and this show was, I just have to say was a was a messed up nightmare. It was like, it was like, every every episode was some various form of disaster, highly dysfunctional in many ways is like, it's like, you know, people quitting as I was, oh, it's one of it was a crazy experience. And I'm actually fond of che, it was like, it was a nutty experience. But this was like, the one time where everybody just pulled together because we just have to get it done. And so we broke a story. We like we, we each like, wrote an act, turned it around real fast sent the the acts one by one up to production, Ken was like, I'm cool. It's like, like, everybody just got their shit together. And the episode turned out great. It was like one of the best episodes of the show. And it was, it was a, it was a terrible, terrible moment. And I still have trouble. I've looked at that script, like once or twice, but it's hard to disconnect it from the experience of that times. And and yeah, it was, it was just that was like that. I still, the memories are very vivid. The memories are very vivid at that time.

Alex Ferrari 26:19
That's well, that's, that's a heck of a story, man. I mean, having to get a phone call Jesus, I can only imagine. Well, so. Alright, so you've been doing this again for a while. I've talked to so many so many writers at high levels in the business. One thing that always surprises me is that every single one of them deals with impostor syndrome. Is that something that you deal with still to this day? And were like, Oh, my God, they just I'm just an engineer. Why am I here? Or do I just kind of just go away as you get go through?

Naren Shankar 26:54
I can't I don't think it says we're like, you know? No, I don't. You know, I don't feel that way. I think I think there is a you know, I think what what definitely happens is, and maybe maybe impostor syndrome is a narrow way to define it. But it is like, it's like you go oh my god, I've been so successful. Do I deserve this? It's like, that's, that's, that's part of it. And that's and that that is much more a psychological thing about yourself. And if you're, if you look at yourself as a good person, or as a bad person, or whatever person or you're being too mean, or you're being intolerant, whatever it is, those are things that are very complicated. And I think that those speak to that ideas, like more like, do I deserve what I've been given? Because, because, you know, it is a look, this is a low percentage success business is there's no question about it. And I think, for me, it's like, I'm very open. And Frank about the fact that I think I just got lucky, you know, I had I had, I had the right, I had the right, I had the right friend, you know, who, who and he had the right friend. And you know, and it's just like, I kind of blundered into it. And, you know, by the way, I came out to LA like a year and a half later, I was on staff, you know, that's like, that's, that's ridiculous. Like, my wife would, you know, she was an independent producer for years, and she never quite got anything, you know, running, she seems so close. And it's like, she got you didn't pay your dues. And I like, I'm like, I kind of didn't I mean, I I suppose I could lie and say, Oh, look, I was in school for 10 years. It's like, that's not I didn't want to be a filmmaker. I didn't I didn't think that that was a thing. You know, it's like, so. So I think, to me, it's it's acknowledging the people who helped you, and, and being humble about the role that luck plays in these things, right. It's like, it's like it is you have to acknowledge that it's like, I think, I think, you know, this idea that, Oh, I'm successful, because I deserve it. It's like, well, it may be you have talents and skills, and again, but it is timing, luck, you know, being in the right place at the right time. It's like, if you're convincing yourself that you're special. It's like, I don't I don't think it's as simple as that. And so, I, you know, basically what I tried to do is acknowledge that I try to I try to be very attentive to the, to the notion that we are an apprenticeship based guild, it's like I take I take the idea of mentorship really seriously. And, you know, I like I like bringing writers into into the business giving people chances promoting from within, because those are all the things that you know, enabled me to get, you know, further. So, it's like, so I don't have impostor syndrome that way. I also feel like every single experience I have is a learning experience. It's like I and I, and I take this back to I did a lot of martial arts and I was in college and the first Time or since they came in to teach us. It's like he like, you know, plus that everybody's asking at the end of the classes like, here's like, and he said, he said, Remember how you feel this way you feel stupid, you feel like you don't know anything, you feel like you're bad. It's like he goes, keep that keep that idea. In your head. It's called fresh mind. It's like me, there's always more to learn. There's always things you don't know. And just, you know, keep that idea in the business. And it's like, then it's joyful, right? You're always learning, you're learning from other people, you're learning new skills. You don't ever have to be the person and you shouldn't be the person that says, oh, no, I know everything. I know how it absolutely has to be like, and so that's sort of how I approach it.

Alex Ferrari 30:45
And of course, you've never met anybody in Hollywood that acts that way. Of course. Never nobody, right? Yeah, no, never, never, never, never, ever.

Naren Shankar 30:56
There there's, there are There are meanings like, a couple of times, I dabbled in features that were so hilarious. Like, my first time I got to write a feature. It was like this won't even specifically give you the names. But it was like it was it was adapting a novel, which is like this thriller, sort of with a slight science fiction bent. And, and the producer had the book, the first thing he said was throw away the one science fiction thing that made the book specialist like what, and then and then he and then he proceeded to draw a graph for me about, about how the audience should feel at any moment in a thing. Because like, they got to be here. And then they got to be there. And there's like, and then you got to build up here. And I'm like, I was literally, just, there's one guy in the room. I knew I was like, I looked, I turned him and I was like, why is he talking? Like, I didn't even understand what was happening. And it's like this. I've been on staff for years at this point, like, What are you talking? It's like, so, so mechanical, and it was, I don't know, if it was like the Robert McKee thing. It was like you're saying, gotta have this here and kind of just do this here.

Alex Ferrari 31:56
And you might have read the hero's journey, and then just all of a sudden,

Naren Shankar 32:04
It's like, but it was so mechanical is like you must write a story this way. I'm like, must

Alex Ferrari 32:12
17 This happens on page 27. This happens like,

Naren Shankar 32:16
Like, why must it happen? Can we have some control over?

Alex Ferrari 32:21
We're the ones creating this. I don't know. That's, that's funny. That is funny. So you, you worked on another little show called CSI for? Small independent show just started out. You worked on that for a while? Eight years? Yeah, eight years on that. So I wanted to ask you, how do you approach because I know a lot of a lot of writers coming up? Don't know this. How did you How do you approach procedural storytelling for a procedural show like CSI, which has an overarching arc of a story for the characters, but there's a new body of the new death a new mystery every week, as opposed to like the expanse, which is much more of a narrative, you know, storytelling with a full arc without the individual, daily or weekly things? How do you approach that storytelling differently?

Naren Shankar 33:15
Well, I mean, you know, procedural, every show has its own sort of specific problem in one way or another. And with CSI, you know, the classic one, our mystery has a lot of has a lot of, you know, built in inherent structure to it. If the intention is to solve a crime, it's like, it naturally goes in a particular way. And CSI had those had those rhythms built in, right. It's like, you have to start with a crime, you have to have different theories of the crime, there has to be some resolution to the case. So in a sense, the kind of show that you're telling dictated that structure. Now, you can say that's formulaic. Yeah. I mean, to an extent but but it's also it's like, couldn't you say the same that any detective mystery novel is formulaic? Sure. Right.

Alex Ferrari 34:06
And it's and there's a crime, you got to figure it out. It's at the end of the day. That's Sherlock Holmes. Sherlock Holmes story is a Charlotte som story.

Naren Shankar 34:14
Here is a Sherlock Holmes story. Exactly. So So you have to embrace that to some extent. I mean, I was probably the most, you know, experimental, of the writers on the bosses and writers on that show, is because I was constantly looking for ways to break the format and to change things and make things because I felt that was, I felt that was something that you could do in a show, is that successful is that and I think that we were much more experimental than we needed to be, like, I think we were much more experimental than Law and Order was Law and Order was, was like a rhythm. Right? And so I tried to break those rhythms in a lot of different ways. Over the years and and but but again, you know, I could point to episodes of CSI that are like straight formula episodes of the show. that are phenomenal. You know, and I think that what I liked about that show was it was a different way to tell a mystery story. You know, I watched it first as a fan. I mean, it's like, and by the way, hilariously, I was working on a show when CSI came out, and as an anthology science fiction show and the other one of the other writers on the show goes, you just because of the way I thought or you know, like we would talk about so he does, you'd be perfect for that show for CSI and I go, I'd rather be dead than tell mystery stories. That's like, fucking hell, man. That's just a nightmare. You got to come up with a crime and you come on come up with a it's like, of course. years later, I'm on the show.

Alex Ferrari 35:45
And yeah, I mean, it is it is it is. I mean, thinking about as a writer, you just like, Man, how do you got to come up with a crime every week? And it can't just be like, Oh, someone got stabbed. It's got to be like, some crazy thing to make it interesting.

Naren Shankar 35:58
I think the way I approached it, and the thing I liked about it was, in the early years of the show, it was a very serious crime drama. It was done with incredible high style. I mean, that was that was really, you know, Jerry Bruckheimer. He wanted to look a particular way. And it was beautiful. I mean, it was like, and it was very, very striking on the technical side. And it really used, you know, like, almost like a fashion photography, sort of like a quality to it.

Alex Ferrari 36:24
And then we're in 90s, and 90s, to early 2000s. Style, Bruckheimer.

Naren Shankar 36:28
But you you look at it, it still looks beautiful, it has a look, you know, and I think the television so often didn't have a look that it was, it was so beautiful, just to watch. Right. And so that was part of its appeal. But also it was the inherent message of the show, which was, which was that, you know, expressed by by Billy Peterson character, so many times was like, you know, if you're smart, if you're methodical, if you don't let yourself get confused by lies, you know, just objectively approach the evidence and the facts in the case that you'll get to the truth. That that is a that to me, is the DNA of the show. And so it was, there's so many times when, you know, the show with this unique, unique approach told a mystery story and a crime story in a different way. Um, that's really what I what I liked about the show, as it got bigger and bigger and more successful. There was a pressure on it, I think, to become much more sensationalized, much more fetishized. I think the show in its later years, really, kind of grotesquely fetishized violence, it was, it was part of the thing that I didn't like, as I was towards the end of my time there. Because, you know, one of the, one of our consultants on the show is a criminalist, with the LA County Sheriff's Department said, you know, and that this line made it into the show, it's like she said, you know, we meet people on the worst day of their lives. It's like, you know, it's like, it's like, and, and what she was talking about was, was understanding and the psychological trauma and connection to loss that these crimes had and the show had that focus very early on, and it got further and further away from it, as the show went on, and I found that very disheartening. And, and there's like, there's, there's a, there's a beautiful episode from the second season of the show called Chaos Theory. And it's basically every act is like this girl who dies a college student dies, and, and they can't figure out what what's going on what has happened. Each act they follow Ay ay ay, ay promisingly lead to a dead end and then the next act is okay, let's look at something else. And at the end of it what they realize is it's just some crazy accident it's like she was she was trying to get a cab in the rain and she gets hit by a car knock literally into a dumpster. And and it's just a random occurrence it's just a tragedy and and Billy Peterson's character tells us to the parents and the parents go no, we refuse to accept that no way there's no way it could have been something like that. And they just leave angry and he doesn't understand he goes I thought the truth would actually make them feel better. And Martin burgers character says, you know, it's like, that's not what's happening here. You got to understand that that's a deep idea you know, and it's like it's a those are the things a show did early on that they that they did less than less of the show did less and less of later on. And so I think it kind of went away from my from I think it's true mission. But you know, it also did some great episodes later I mean, we did one of my favorites was it was an episode called killer. And it was the first episode shows like we revealed the murder at the beginning. No, you kill killed. One of the beginnings William Sadler did this part and can think directly this is a beautiful episode. It's not a it's not a who done it. It's a wide done it turned it turned it over. little bit on his head is that you develop the personality this person you understand what he did and why he did it over the course of the episode. And it's just, it's one of my favorites of the entire time. And then we did you know, we did kind of style breaking episodes as we ended up having a lot of lab technicians on the show who are great comic actors, while the Langham was Vasey. They were and they were fun. And they were being underused, they'd come on the show, because they were you know, they had but they were being under use. So I started these episodes called the lab rats episodes, which were once a season, we would turn the entire show over to the supporting characters and just do like a black comedy. And, and they became like one of my favorite things. It's like we introduced them in a season where we had like an ongoing arc about a killer who leaves perfect scale miniatures of crime scenes at crime scenes, which is probably my favorite season of the show. But the lab rats like make this incredible break in the case, like, like, in their, in their, you know, one little episode and then year by year, we would do other shows. And maybe the most fun was, was one call is I think it was called Yeah, it's called you kill me. Which is, which is the entire show is the lab rats discussing about how they would murder each other. How they would, how they would just murder people, and how they how, and it is it's just like hilarious. Like, like, you know, imaginary, dark, dark humor. And it's like, it's, I loved working in those guys that Liz VAs you and I are good friends now. And they were they were super fun. And yeah, so I you know, the show had lots of rhythms, I think. I think it became culturally more of a caricature, in some ways.

Alex Ferrari 41:56
A generation of, of women specifically really became CSI investigators, because of that show.

Naren Shankar 42:04
I mean, that's, that's one of the things I loved about it. It's like, when the show started, there were like five forensic programs around the country. And after and, you know, 10 years into it, there were like, like, 500. You know,

Alex Ferrari 42:15
I mean, it became a real thing. So the show did a lot of good. It did a lot a lot of good. For for the world. Without that. You can't say that, about many shows.

Naren Shankar 42:27
You know, I actually, I liked that. I feel like Star Trek was that way it had that it had that quality CSI was that way. I mean, especially with women, because again, I think it's like their disproportion. It was not a show in which you resolve conflicts with violence. He was writing thought, thought your way through that. And I And so many times, you know, people would come up like a mother and her 12 year old daughter's like, this is our favorite show. We watch it together. It's like, I know, I know. And I'd be like, that's got intense, but it is it is it is a you know, it's just an interesting observation is like they would always gravitate to the puzzle solving aspect of it.

Alex Ferrari 43:05
Now, obviously, you've worked in a lot of rooms over the years, there's this kind of unspoken rule or unspoken information about the politics of a, of a writers room. Can you talk a little bit about what the politics are in the writers room as far as a young writer walking into it? So they understand what's going on

Naren Shankar 43:27
Unspoken politics in the writers room? How do you how do you mean, could you elaborate on that,

Alex Ferrari 43:31
So just kind of like how you know, because I know that everyone, every every show runner runs differently, sometimes they they're in the rooms, and run the actual room, sometimes they have, you know, the second command runs the room, how to speak what not to do, don't try to you know, you when you're throwing out ideas, don't throw out the problem throughout the solution. These kind of ideas. I've picked this up just from interviewing showrunners so those kinds of those kinds of things that young writer might not understand about a writers room and listening to this will give them an idea of how they should approach being in a room not theirs. Some people are too quiet some people are too out there. You know, everyone there's I know there was one writer I had on the show that when he was your showrunner, but when he was a writer, he's like, Yeah, I just kept throwing out I solved the ideas for everything. And the showrunner is like Wow, your universe, everyone, everything gets all thrown away. So these are those little things. I just love to hear from you what your opinion is,

Naren Shankar 44:28
You know, every every room is different. Every everybody who runs a show runs room a little differently. I can only really tell you how the way I look at things and and also sort of describe what I think are the bad rooms that I've seen running. Right. Yeah, you know, I feel like there there are maybe the extremes are one in which everybody is trying to please the boss in which in which it is as, you know, step on everybody else to get your hand raised. And so you get noticed, some people run rooms that way. Some people are very absent, they let their second do something, and then they come in and they blow everything up and say, you're all stupid, and then they leave. It's like, that happens as well. It's like, I, I feel like I don't, I don't think it's really a good idea for show runners to be out of the room. It's like a lot of a lot of bad show runners, I think. They say, Well, I gotta go fix, I gotta go fix Episode Five, it's like a disaster, I gotta fix it in editing. The reason everybody hides out in editing and why it's a very bad sign, is because you don't have to deal with another person's opinion. You don't have to, you don't have to defend anything, really. Because all you said do that do that do that is pure control. And so it's a, it's a, it's a hiding out kind of a behavior. The best rooms that I have ever been in, in the way I try to conduct ours is, is, again, it's that best idea wins. Everybody has a voice, everybody gets to make a contribution, everybody needs to listen to everybody else. If an idea isn't strong enough, and it can't withstand an argument, then you need a better idea. And, and that is there's no hierarchy, everybody's voice is equal. I've taken notes from, you know, suggestions from our pas, you know, it's like, we're sitting there in the room, it doesn't matter to me, you know, it's like, my job is, is probably like a hand on the rudder, right? It's like, I have to guide it, I have to give it shape. Sometimes, if you know, if the question is, should the dress be red, or the dress be blue? If I like red, then the dress is red. That's an aesthetic, you know, that's an aesthetic decision. If I have an idea for a character and or a moment and somebody goes, that's just doesn't make any sense, this character would never do that. And if the argument is good, and change it, right is the answer. It's like, you have to be able, you have to have the courage to do that. And I think part of it, for me, it goes back to my, you know, my background in in hard science, because it's like, it's essentially peer review, right? You write a paper, you put it up, and then you sit back with your colleagues. And then you question the fundamentals of it, you question the foundation of it, is it you know, that's what that is, right. And so you have to have, I think you have to have that is like that kind of when everybody feels comfortable like that, they're going to be listened to that everybody can make a contribution. I think you get the best out of people that way. And I treat departments on the physical production side the same way. It's like these are these people are experts in what they do. It's like, I don't tell them how to make everything, I tell them what I'm looking for, but then let them go and be creative.

Alex Ferrari 47:53
You know, you don't micromanage you don't micromanage you,

Naren Shankar 47:57
There's an inevitable amount of micromanagement that happens because, because it's hierarchical, right? Everybody is responsible for a piece of it, every department is responsible for a piece of it. But the people who are responsible for the whole thing, it's basically on my shows, that's basically me, right? I am the one that that ultimately says, this is the shape of it, this is a story want to tell, this is the cut, this is the, the sound, this is the music, it's like, but you're gonna get a better thing. If everybody at every stage of that process gets to make the thing that they do really, really well. All you have to do is guide them, because you're just gonna get tremendous stuff out of people, I think that way. And that's how I prefer to do it.

Alex Ferrari 48:37
Now, is there a piece of advice you wish someone would have told you at the beginning of your career, if you can go back and tell yourself when you when you when you were sleeping on that couch? Is there something that you wish you would have known?

Naren Shankar 48:51
I, you know, I actually had the initial my formative experiences in the business were really positive ones, they really were Star Trek was a very positive place to learn good people, good stories, you know, a stable place for several years, you know, seaQuest for negative examples, you know, it's like, like, things that were very clear that you shouldn't do. You know, and but but at that point, I was I was confident enough in my own abilities, that I could understand those. The Outer Limits was my next gig, which I did for three years, the Showtime anthology show, which was a phenomenal training ground just to learn to learn almost every aspect of production because an anthology you're creating a new world, every building yet making it you know, and the range of shows you got to do were tremendous. I mean, because we did, you know, an old western and then a futuristic show that a spaceship show and then a contemporary show, and it's like it's like, all like one after another. And so the amount of The amount of learning you get for literally any kind of production problem was astonishing, you know. And so, you know, I just I think I just got lucky in that sense. I just got good experiences upfront. So I think and good mentors, you know, who were, you know, gave me a lot of opportunities, a lot of freedom.

Alex Ferrari 50:25
So no, no, how did you get involved with the expanse net? Because that's been doing that's been doing pretty well for you. Over the years. I just had Thomas on by the way, I just had Tom. He's great. He's like, Oh, my God, Thomas. Jane is just an amazing human being. He's sitting there with his pipe, clicking on the clicking on his pipe, he has skulls in the background. And I'm like, Thomas, the level of cool that you are, is just not it's natural to it's not it's not manufactured. And you can see it in expanse, too. You could see that cool. Just come right off the street. It's pretty amazing.

Naren Shankar 51:02
He was he was he was so he was such a delight to work with it. I think initially, he was, you know, he's a little guarded when you're getting to know him. And I think he was guarded about just sort of, like, attaching himself to this weird thing on the Sci Fi Channel. But, you know, he. He really I think Mark Fergus, who Mark Ferguson Hawk Osby wrote the pilot, Link Mark, he really connected with Mark, and just in sort of the love of the same kind of movies. And Tom is such a cinephile is, you know, oh, my god, like, hardcore. And then I think he started, he became, you know, he started trusting us when we were delivering on the things that we said we were going to do in a way that we were going to do and, and I think that by the end of it, he became really, he was really choked up, like, like, on his last days of, you know, leaving the show, and it was like, it was really, I think, I think he feels proud of the work that we did on the expanse.

Alex Ferrari 52:07
So how did you get involved expense,

Naren Shankar 52:08
I was like the last element I was. Because the books had been optioned by Alcon mark and Hawk had been attached to write the pilot. They, they had never done television before. So the pilot was sold to sci fi with an on air commitment. And so Alcon was a small studio done, you know, done some, you know, they did the blind side, but they'd done you know, features and, and they were getting a little bit more in that space. But they had never done television show before. And Sharon Hall, who's the president of Alcon at that time, I'd worked with her. She'd been at Sony for many years, we've done development together. And she thought I would be a good fit for this show. And so I just came in and met with with the guys and this was at the pilot stage. They just had a script, they didn't have the production wasn't up and running. And so they just needed somebody, you know, who, who could mount a show like this? And it was, I mean, I'll be to be honest. I had, I had been away from science fiction for a very long time, but 10 years almost. And I was not a fan of what, you know, the Sci Fi Channel was putting on because other than Battlestar Galactica, they had a pretty grim slate of things, and they would send me stuff I read, and I go, and so my agent sent me the script. And it's on the Sci Fi Channel, and I went, delete. And I just deleted it. The first time, I just didn't even read it. And they came back to me, like three weeks later, I said, Look, please read the script, they really want you. And this time, I scroll to the bottom, and I see that mark and Hawk had written Children of Men. And and which I loved, and I'm like, okay, all right. And I didn't know the books. And so I read the script. I was like, Are they really going to make this? It's like, because this is not like the thing that they had they this is not the kind of material that they had. They had embraced, you know, but it was a new regime. Bill McGoldrick had come in there and, and I met with the guys and we talked about the script, and I liked them, and they liked me. And then, you know, there we go,

Alex Ferrari 54:11
The rest of this industry

Naren Shankar 54:13
Six years later,

Alex Ferrari 54:15
Naren I'm going to ask you a couple questions. I asked all of my guests three questions. What advice would you give a screenwriter trying to break into the business today?

Naren Shankar 54:23
It's tough. Realistically, it's a very difficult business to break into. One of the big changes in the business from when I started was, you don't have this regular broadcast TV machine, making a zillion episodes of a show. What you have are really big productions making way fewer episodes with much tighter staff. So the abilities to get into it are actually I think tougher. It's like because the pathways have changed. It's like you don't really have a freelance writing market like you did 2530 years ago. The ways into the biz dentists are becoming a writers assistant, which is a highly coveted job becoming an executive producers assistant, which is another pathway into the business. And so aspiring writers are always trying to find that way in. That's right. Because yeah, you can write scripts, you can get agents to read them, you can get put up to staff, you know, there's always that available. But that's a numbers game too, right? Because it's like, he's just a lot of people in the business. But getting that shot at being in a room really learning. It's just tough. I mean, it's like, so the key is, right, network and try to get one of those gigs, you know, take advantage of internships and fellowships that are all, you know, they're out there at the studios. Those are all really, really good programs and the gills, you know, and, and that's really, and that's really the trick, it's like, and you know, even if it's like, even if the job is a pas job that gets you in the writers room, it's like, take it, take it, take it and learn, you'll learn something, it's learned something. And if you show people something and a desire, it's like, hopefully, if you're on the right people, they'll give you those opportunities and give you a chance to take a step up. I mean, we promoted several writers, from writers assistants and, and EPSS. On the expanse, we did that on CSI. I mean, even into editorial director, writers, like we did a lot of homegrown internal production, I mean, internal promotion. I'm a big believer in that. And I think that's the way things should work.

Alex Ferrari 56:35
I'll tell I'll tell you what I mean, I worked as I learned more as a PA working in Orlando, than I did at film school, I would skip school to just go and be on the set and learn and being and being in the office and seeing things run. I just You just learned so much more than you do at a school because you're just seeing it happen. You're picking up things that are not in books, and the teachers generally don't talk about and like those nuances of stuff that that go on, on set. You just, you know, I remember the first day as a PA, they're like, a bunch of grips like you want to intern in the grip department, or go to the grip department first in the grips did a giant pile of cable that's like 15 miles long, untangle that for me. I learned I didn't want to be a grip.

Naren Shankar 57:18
And the guys, that's hilarious. You know, and when you're on a set, people, people will talk to you, they will they they're happy to share knowledge with you, everybody really does understand this sort of like inherent apprenticeship model. But, you know, you should never be afraid to ask questions. What's the worst that can happen? It's like, Stop bothering me. We'll talk later. And it's like, but I would be like on CSI, we had this amazing experience, you know, focus puller, and his name's Gary Mueller. And he had worked for ever, like he worked in a fifth plug in the 50s and 60s for like, you know, Billy Friedkin, and it's like, he was like, a grouchy perfectionist, but like seeing everything. And whenever I had a question on CSI ago, I could give her as this where he's like, I'll go to Gary and ask him and he told me and I remember was I had this question about like, lenses and lens systems and CSI was, was really interesting, because all of the effects were almost all of them were practical in camera effects. We didn't do any any post digital stuff, really. So we experimented a lot. And I said, this is work because I don't I don't quite understand it. He goes, he goes, would you like would you like me to take you to Panama vision, and just go look at the camera, and I'll teach you like, and he arranged for visit, we went on the weekend. And he said like he said all of his years working. None of the bosses had asked him these questions. And it's like, I'm like, How the fuck do you learn this? Like, how do you learn? It's like, there's so many people who are afraid of looking stupid, because they don't know something. Right? I say, I don't know how that works all the time. Or tell me how that works. And I know a lot. I've been doing this for a long time. It's like, but you got it, you got to take those opportunities. There are people who knows so much and their knowledge is so specialized. And filmmaking is such a weird combination of pure, creative and highly technical. It's like it's an unusual thing. And so, you know, I think a lot of reasons these days that like writer showrunners like what's happening a lot of times now you see pairings like have a writer showrunner. And then a producing director. It's like, you know, because there's a whole side of post production that they don't even that they're terrified of people like to edit. But when you start talking about sound mixing when you start talking about music and talking about color and VFX they just get no you got you do that. That's fine. You show me it's like, I feel like that's like that's, you know, a little bit like a director saying we're just gonna do half a movie. You know, it's like, the right it's like all of those things are part of the experiences like I I have had friends who like I remember I was I was I came into a meeting on some show, and I'm still doing posts on the expanse and, and I said, Sorry, it's like, you know, are mixed with nine hours yesterday. And they're like, what, nine hours. And I'm like, about normal. It's like a seven or nine hour mix is what I do. And it's like, I just go to playback and then just say, you know, give them a couple of notes and then elite, I'm like, you're missing out on a lot of shit. Because you learn you learn you sound sound is half of the way you perceive the world.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:31
You could also see mistakes if it's there any mistakes being made on set you now because if you're just listening to a match, you don't see the details. But like, Man, this boot is not getting it. Oh, man. It's like it's offer. Something's happened and the sound guys not doing his job, right? You're in the mix, you're in literally in the mix, literally,

Naren Shankar 1:00:47
Literally in the mix. So you know, I feel like, you know, that is a That's the deal. It's like, just gonna learn a lot doing that.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:58
What lesson took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Naren Shankar 1:01:03
Okay, I'll limit it to the film industry, because there's probably many things I'm still learning. I think I personally have a tendency to, to take on projects or ideas that I probably shouldn't, because I want to prove that I can do it. And that, that that sometimes is not good. It's like, just to show somebody, oh, yeah, you think that's not adaptable? Fuck it, I'll do it. And then I'll beat my head against it forever, just to try to show somebody that it's not necessarily the best way to really do something, I would do that on shows a lot. And I think I would also I don't know, it's, there's a sort of like a Pruvit mentality, sometimes it's not healthy. And I think that maybe another aspect of that is, is I would, if something isn't working early in my career, I would force it, I would just try to ram my way through it and just just make it happen. I got good advice, saying, You know what, it's a creative thing. Maybe today isn't the day just step away from it and come back to it. It's like, you have to learn that too. It's like you have to learn when you're forcing, you have to learn when it's not being productive. And don't be afraid to just just let it take a step back and go for a walk or take a shower or go for a drive or something because your brain sometimes needs time to make connections between things. And so I'm think I'm much more comfortable doing that now than I was early in my career for sure.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:48
And last question, what are three pilots that every screenwriters who listen read, or every television writer should read? More episodes or episodes of a show?

Naren Shankar 1:03:01
It changes, I would say that changes era by era, and, you know, genre by genre, like, like, what is a? Like, what's a great, you know, if you if you like crime shows, like crimes and cop shows, like, what's a great show to watch now, you could make, you could make a lot of different, you know, you could say the sopranos if you wanted to go back aways, you could say mayor of Easton, you know, if you so it's like, it's really that's very much of a moving target. Because there are, I used to collect like pilots, I thought were really, really terrific. The problem is, they may not be so terrific. When you go back a few years. You know, you're it's like it really does change.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:47
I mean, like the Breaking Bad pilots still. You're absolutely brilliant, even though it was so many years ago when that came out, but you just read it. Well, that's, that's remarkable.

Naren Shankar 1:03:57
They can they can they do last? I mean, you know, I think Game of Thrones is a terrific pilot.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:02
And men, bad men.

Naren Shankar 1:04:03
Yeah, Mad Men is a great pilot.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:06
Yeah, Mad Men. Sopranos? I mean, David chases. I mean, it's it's the firt the first one. Yeah, there's so many. There's so many. But just,

Naren Shankar 1:04:14
I mean, I used to keep, I used to keep the X Files. I love that. I think I think what it is for pilots, for me, it's like, if you can think of pilots, first episodes of shows that were tremendous. Inevitably, there are like, one or two moments that are so striking that you always remember them. It's like, you know, you like feel

Alex Ferrari 1:04:38
Like a guy with a gun in his underwear. You know, with a mess with

Naren Shankar 1:04:44
The very first image of Breaking Bad, right? It's like, but that's but that's what I mean. It's like I think those are the pilots that stick with you. It's like even you know, independent of era or style or anything like that. I think that I think that really is what it is.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:57
Naren man. It has been such a pleasure talking to you. Thank You so much for coming on the show and sharing your sharing your knowledge and experience with with my tribe and hopefully somebody listening out there is terrified now and won't be in the business but or at least understands what they're getting into. Or you know, get a degree in engineering and applied physics.

Naren Shankar 1:05:20
You know, there are times you just what I really do go like, you know, man, really lucky and it is ridiculous that people pay me to tell stories and make cool shows for a living. It's like it is just a it is just, you know, pinch me and you know, I'll do it as long as I can because it's really fun.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:43
Man, it was a pleasure meeting you and thank you again for being on the show, brother. I appreciate you.

Naren Shankar 1:05:47
My pleasure.

LINKS

  • Naren Shankar – IMDb

SPONSORS

  1. Need Distribution for Your Film? – Check This Out!
  2. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  3. Enigma Elements – Cinematic Tools & Assets for Serious Filmmakers
  4. Audible – Get a Free Filmmaking or Screenwriting Audiobook

IFH 595: Marcel the Shell: From Viral YouTube Short to Hit A24 Film with Dean Fleischer-Camp

Dean Fleischer Camp is the award-winning filmmaker and New York Times-bestselling author who created viral sensation MARCEL THE SHELL WITH SHOES ON. Since appearing on Filmmaker Magazine’s 25 New Faces of Independent Film in 2011, Camp’s work has been profiled in virtually every major American media outlet. In 2018, his first feature FRAUD was released to widespread controversy and acclaim, described as a “brilliantly provocative”(Filmmaker) and “exhilarating”(Sight+Sound) “masterwork”(Documentary Magazine) that “pushes the boundaries of documentary”(Variety).

His first scripted feature, an adaptation of MARCEL THE SHELL WITH SHOES ON starring Jenny Slate, Isabella Rossellini and Rosa Salazar, is slated for a 2022 theatrical release via A24. He has directed for Comedy Central, HBO, TBS, Adult Swim and Disney Interactive. Commercial clients include Atlassian, Pop-Tarts, Clearasil, Maltesers, and many others.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Dean Fleischer-Camp 0:00
Every time someone asked me how like I made it or how I got that movie that first thing made, I tell them, here's how I made it. But don't copy my playbook because Hollywood's like a bank. And every time someone exploits an insecurity, they're going to close it up immediately. You can never do it the same way twice.

Alex Ferrari 0:18
Today's show is sponsored by Enigma Elements. As filmmakers, we're always looking for ways to level up production value of our projects, and speed up our workflow. This is why I created Enigma Elements. Your one stop shop for film grains, color grading lots vintage analog textures like VHS and CRT images, smoke fog, textures, DaVinci Resolve presets and much more. After working as an editor colorist post and VFX supervisor for almost 30 years I know what film creatives need to level up their projects, checkout enigmaelements.com and use the coupon code IFH10. To get 10% off your order. I'll be adding new elements all the time. Again, that's a enigmaelements.com. I'd like to welcome to show Dean Fleischer-Camp how you doin Dean?

Dean Fleischer-Camp 1:12
Hi, good. How you doing?

Alex Ferrari 1:14
Good man, I was so excited to have you on the show, man because I just had the pleasure of watching your new film Marcel, the show with the shoes on last week. And I told I told your PR people like I just I need to have them on I need to know how this happened. And go what in what universe do I live in that this movie gets made and put out on the theatrical release and it gets made in general but be put out by through put be put up on A24 like I need to know the story behind this this film because and I was lucky because I didn't know anything about myself prior to watching the movie. So I was I was a virgin and Marcel virgin. But as I did research for this conversation cell has been around for over a decade.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 1:56
So we're going on Yeah, yeah, yes. And he's he's an old soul. You're not wrong. That is pretty unusual for a movie like this to not just get made but get distributed. You know, it took a ton of real like blood sweat and indie film hustle. And it Yeah, I mean, it would not have gotten made it would have, we had sort of the Studio offers when those original shorts are made. And they certainly were not. You know, there had had wasn't really or the hardware wasn't really in the right place. And, and I knew that this was going to be you know, kind of a longer road of finding financing independently and then finding this family of incredible, brilliant collaborators that made the film possible.

Alex Ferrari 2:44
So before we get into the the the archaeology of how Marcel got brought into this world, first and foremost, man how and why in God's green earth did you want to get into this business?

Dean Fleischer-Camp 2:58
You know, I have always been I've always been drawn to movies. I was always a big movie buff and fan. I went to film school. i It's funny that the first thing that sort of took off for me was this internet short, because I think now people are saying like, Well, why did you decide to turn it into a movie? It's like, movies were always the point. The YouTube fame was sort of a weird, you know, happenstance. But I'm glad to happen. And I don't think that this type of film is my favorite reactions are the people that kind of are coming to it fresh because it's been so long since we've done something with the character and it's changed a lot it's grown a lot. The whole backstory is sort of different and new and and but but but I do think that it it would not have gotten made and certainly not in in the way it got made with all the creative freedom that I was given that our team was afforded. If it had not had a previously successful run as you know, YouTube shorts and children's books, I think that they're sort of you know, it's weird that we are we are sort of an adaptation of a pre existing IP because that's like everything that's in movies right now Top Gun lightyear everything is pre existing IP. And it's funny that we're technically part of that, but you know, our process and what this movie is is so completely different from

Alex Ferrari 4:19
A little different than Marvel a little different. Yeah, though. I would I would like to see Marcel in a Marvel movie. I think that was

Dean Fleischer-Camp 4:28
Cinematic universe.

Alex Ferrari 4:32
Exactly! So how you know so for everybody who doesn't know how did this character come to life? It just seems so it just like a shell with shoes on and googly eye like it's insane. And this was came, this was like 2000 10,009. Somewhere around there is when you first came up with so how did the character just come to life?

Dean Fleischer-Camp 4:53
It originally came about because the voice came first. Jenny had been doing this well tiny voice because We were sharing a hotel room for a friend's wedding with like a ton of other people to save money. And she started doing his tiny voice to joke about how sort of crushed and smashed she felt. And, and then when we got back to New York, where we're living at the time, I had completely forgotten that I agreed to make a video for my friends stand up show, like local Stand Up Show. And so, you know, my head popped off the pillow that morning, I was like, Oh my God, that's due tomorrow. And, and so I just very quickly, you know, like, asked Jenny like, hey, let's write a couple jokes for that character. You like really funny voice even doing and then I, we, we recorded it. Jenny did some improv around it kind of together ran out, like a madman collecting, you know, supplies from craft stores, basically, not knowing really what it'd be, I was just like, let's just get a bunch of supplies, and I'll figure something out. And, and I made a couple of little terrible looking like goblins that that did not pass muster, and then landed finally landed on Marcel, who I think is so like, you know, he's handsome. And he's, he's cute. And yeah, it was sort of serendipity. And then I screened it. I think I made it and screened it within 48 hours. And then obviously took off on the internet.

Alex Ferrari 6:14
It was it was stop motion animation at first, right?

Dean Fleischer-Camp 6:19
So yeah, it still is all the all the characters in the film or stop motion other than the the rare exception of the insects or CG, but everything else is stop motion.

Alex Ferrari 6:28
So yeah, I was gonna get into the album again to the technical because I was also Yeah, I'm a post guy. So I've been in post forever. And I was just like, looking at it. And I'm like, Man, is it? Man? Did they? Did they emulate it? Did they emulate stop motion to head? Did they competent? They do the stop motion? And like so we'll get into all that in a minute. Yeah, sorry. So you put up this little you made this little throwaway short? Yeah. Oh, this is cute. Let's throw it up on this new thing called YouTube.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 6:53
Yeah, it was I know, it's hard to even imagine a time when you make a short film, it doesn't immediately get posted on YouTube or Vimeo or whatever. But 2010 was like, yeah, the only reason I put it on YouTube at all, because I was in the habit, I'd made lots of videos for, you know, friends shows or whatever. And this was one of the few that I put on the internet because a sort of friend at that first screening, like, tapping on the shoulder when I was leaving is like, can you put that on line, I really want to share it with my grandmother who was at the time she had like a broken hip or wrist or something. And she was kind of laid up in bed and home down. And she thought it might cheer up. And that was the only reason I put it on YouTube. So it was designed for this audience of one but found a much larger one.

Alex Ferrari 7:36
Yeah, that's the thing that like that is that was literally the definition of viral viral film viral. Yeah, it was completely valid. It made what 32 million views on the first one, the first one you did.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 7:46
It's like more than that, because I took it down and I put it back up and you know, whatever. It's like I think it was probably it probably would be like 50 or something, which is actually Yeah, totally. Oh, yeah. Totally back down. i Yeah, I'm not even sure. I don't know what viral videos were before that, like Nyan Cat or something.

Alex Ferrari 8:03
Right, exactly. So that was like an actual viral video wasn't like something that the algorithm picked up. Like, there's no algorithm for Marcel No. It was just sharing, and sharing and sharing. And people were like, I gotta share this, oh my god, I gotta share this. So it was truly a viral situation. So when you the first reactions that you got from the you know, from that, which is still again, 2010 is still fairly, I mean, the internet's been around for a bit. YouTube's been around for about five years. I remember 2010 Very well. And what happened to you and Jenny, when that when you start seeing these numbers, you're like, What the hell's going on?

Dean Fleischer-Camp 8:41
Oh, it felt pretty crazy. I weirdly was like, I don't know, I guess I was pretty enmeshed in internet culture around 2010. But because I'd had that experience of like screening it at this, like, you know, kind of like art art hipster Brooklyn crowd and 2010. It seemed like the most like judgmental art parts, which I consider myself one. I'm not saying that. But seeing people who would normally be very judgmental about anything that you screen at, like a live comedy show, sort of just like completely melt and be like, what was that? And to see how quickly they connected with this character. I was kind of like, I think that's my go viral.

Alex Ferrari 9:18
Really, so you weren't you had an idea that it might go in, but the definition of viral is not 50 million views. I don't think you said oh, this is gonna go 40 50 million easy.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 9:29
No, no, I thought it would get passed around like, you know, like a small, you know, slightly popular Vimeo video and then we'd maybe we could, like leverage that to make a bigger project with it.

Alex Ferrari 9:41
That was the mindset already. I mean, you were the you were the hustle and filmmaker, like okay, this thing goes, we're gonna go out and get some financing. We're gonna make a feature of this damn thing.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 9:51
Oh, yeah, totally. At the time. I was editing like the I was taking the worst jobs like I wasn't aware. And so I was just like, yeah, how do I segue into director And

Alex Ferrari 10:00
Oh dude, don't you streak into the crier, bro. That was in 25 years color editing. Dude, I used to edit promos for Matlock for a television station back in West Palm Beach. All right, so I was like,

Dean Fleischer-Camp 10:17
I might have you be I one of my first jobs editing was editing a tutorial for how to do like a like, I think I think they advertised on like late night television. It was a tutorial for how to do home water births.

Alex Ferrari 10:32
Okay, so it was like in my I'm going back into my archives and see if I could one up that but man, I don't. I don't really think

Dean Fleischer-Camp 10:38
Matlog is pretty great.

Alex Ferrari 10:41
I mean, I mean it Matlog's is pretty good. Yeah, but I mean, but but, uh, waterbirth tutorial for late, man. That's a I'm gonna give it to you on that one. I think he won. I think you won.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 10:50
And it was like it was like footage from like, amateur, like people who are not, you know, professional filmmakers like filming their own home waterbirds as part of

Alex Ferrari 10:59
The home water birth wasn't lit properly. So it wasn't composite. There wasn't composition, there wasn't a techno crane rolling out.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 11:07
Not a lot of muse on scene, frankly, for my taste.

Alex Ferrari 11:13
Okay, so So the so the first video goes, and it, you know, goes viral enough. Um, of course, even then, people were especially I remember especially because I had I had a video or I had a short film that was making the rounds through Hollywood at that time. And it was doing the water bottle tour and all that stuff. So I imagined that you got calls from Hollywood and you're like, Oh, we got to make this into a movie. I want you to tell everybody because I know what happened even without even knowing what knows what happened. I know they were probably saying you know insane stuff like oh, we should take Marcel up with the rock.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 11:49
Oh, yeah, no, you're dead so well.

Alex Ferrari 11:50
So what were the pitches that you got for your character from Hollywood?

Dean Fleischer-Camp 11:54
The one that that has stuck in my mind was that someone a studio had recommended that we partner him with I forget it I'm pretty sure it was Ryan Reynolds that we partner him with Ryan prime together and as like

Alex Ferrari 12:15
I mean it's not a it's not the worst it's been a hard no it's a soft no one that but I watch it. Like there's some things you just like you should team up with the rock. I'm like, I don't know if Marcel and the rock are really right. Yeah, Matthew, Bruce Willis and him.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 12:34
Chemistry. I was like that one Detective Pikachu came out. I was like, Oh, we got pitched Detective Pikachu was

Alex Ferrari 12:44
What your IP was not nearly as big as Pikachu.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 12:47
So that's right. No, they were to go Pikachu. But yes, so we did that water bottle tour and it was just very clear like, Oh, this is they were trying to draft him on to tentpole franchise. And we were, I was always looking to make you know, more of a portrait piece about Marcel and like, really? Because I felt like there's no reason to blow up. Like blow it out. Marcel is already tiny in a blown out world. Taking him on, you know, fighting terrorists in Paris or whatever is like why, why?

Alex Ferrari 13:17
I'd watch that again. ourselves fighting terrorists.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 13:22
You're gonna see it, you're gonna be on an airplane looking through the new releases, and you're gonna see that soon.

Alex Ferrari 13:27
Is that is that Marcel with Chris Tucker? Is that was that what's going on right now?

Dean Fleischer-Camp 13:32
That would be incredible.

Alex Ferrari 13:33
Everyone, everyone listen, listen, a lot of studio execs listen to the show. So hey, we're just throwing this in. We're spinning out gold. Me and Dean are spitting out gold right now. Alright, so you had to say at least at that point, because a lot of filmmakers when they go on these waterbottle tours, if they're lucky enough to get this kind of attention. They fold. They'll go okay. Yeah, I just want to get in the game. I just want to go. But you and Jenny both said no. Where we're gonna, we're gonna make we're gonna protect myself from the savages of all.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 14:05
Yeah, it did feel like something that was like, Oh, got it. Like, because he's cute. It's sort of like, they're picturing this could be the next minions or something. And, you know, that was like, so out of my just like taste. And I think it was it also, you know, like, indie film might have been a little more the world might have been a little more robust when 12 years ago and so I think, you know, nowadays Yeah, you see a ton of directors making that jump and I don't blame them because they want to make a living and they don't want to spend another seven years you know, financing and doing it independently. So So I totally get it at the time. Yeah, I was just like, No, this character has become very dear to us. We know him incredibly well. And we know that that those little shorts have revealed like 2% of what this movie could be and and yeah, throwing them into the mix with with Chris Tucker.

Alex Ferrari 14:58
But But now Now that you've told his story, he's back on the table. I'm just throwing that out. Yeah, that's right. You've made your art piece. Now let's sell out. Let's sell out.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 15:10
Come at me Disney.

Alex Ferrari 15:12
Exactly exactly where we're willing to sell the IP to Disney anything, let us know.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 15:17
And the other difficult thing is we have held on to the IP.

Alex Ferrari 15:21
Yeah, well, we get you made. So you've made a multiple shorts of Marcel over the years, as I saw, it was like, every few years, you would make a new short, you had a children's book, children's books written about them. So this was an IP, you've you literally did kind of create an IP, which is really an indie IP, which is really

Dean Fleischer-Camp 15:40
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, totally. I think it's a really unusual opportunity that that has, that we've found ourselves situation we found ourselves in the, the the books we did ourselves, we wrote and I photographed them. And then we've worked with an illustrator like to turn them into paintings. And so it has never been the kind of thing like I get a little miffed when I see people say, you know, oh, Mercer, of course, he's a movie now. They like sold the rights to someone. It's like, No, man, it's me. It's me and Jenny. And it has been the entire time and we have met, we've held on to the rights of this character, we've never merchandised him. And we're, you know, we're beginning to try to figure out how to do that in a way that is holistic to the character and involves, you know, me overseeing all those things, but we've never really done the smart thing. So that we don't buy houses in Malibu or whatever.

Alex Ferrari 16:32
I mean, I mean, 100 man, if someone shows up with 100 million tomorrow, I mean, it's a conversation. It's a conversation. It's not a hard No, it's not a hard No. I hope that this I hope that this interview helps you along this these routes that someone that I looked, I saw I saw the indie film hustle interview, man. I'll give you 75 mil cash for the IP. I think we can make this work.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 16:54
What's your commission, man?

Alex Ferrari 16:56
That's the love brother. Just the love for Marcel. That's all I want. So okay, so the next question is Alright, so now Hollywood has is pitched you Pikachu. Yeah, and gone down that road. So you guys said, Okay, we got to get to kind of make this ourselves. So now starts the journey of finding people who are insane enough to give you money to make a movie about a talking shell? Yeah, in a house. I mean, yeah, I'm still gonna have to stop you for a second. I was literally sitting watching the movie. And I'm going, how did this get? Like? How, who? And this is before I knew about the IP and knew about the shore? Yeah, so that makes it a little bit more sense. But not much more? Not much. Yeah. So

Dean Fleischer-Camp 17:45
So there's a period after those that the water bottle tour where, you know, we're making a kid's book, maybe and, and we kind of just said no to that we walked away from those and we didn't do anything, we were just like, let's just keep our character and, you know, not get into something that we can't, we can't handle and that we're going to be not proud of. And so for, I think like three or four years, we didn't, we just didn't try to pitch it as anything bigger, but the character never went away. And Jamie and I were kind of always sort of riffing about what his world would be in jokes. And, and I started sort of taking, you know, lazy notes about whenever we'd have a really good idea that we loved about that. And then, you know, after like, four years, I felt like, oh, this actually could work is like a future film. We've sort of built out the world and done all of this. I don't know, like, imagine imagination, building. And, and maybe this actually could deserve a 90 minute like a full feature. And the first thing we did was we got in touch with lysholm who had produced Obvious Child Jenny's first kind of starring role. And also, you know, small indie and and then after, like, how do we Yeah, let's like do this together, where you've come on to produce it and to start from really from the ground up and help us find finances and find money for it. And so, you know, we put together a kind of prospectus a brief and had I had done a lot of like drawing and sort of building up the world. And, you know, we did like another one of our bottle tour where, you know, we're a little older, a little wiser, I understood, I as a filmmaker understood who I was, and, and it was even more impossible than just let us make an animated movie about talking shell. It was also I want Final Cut. And we want a lot of like a final cut. We want a lot of creative control, and we're also not going to sell you a screenplay. You are buying a really like detailed outline and a vision and a group of filmmakers that will deliver but I knew that the screenplay had to be done in tandem with recording audio. Jenny is such an incredible improviser or she's not a like, sit down and write kind of person. And we had, I forget when but we brought on Nick Paley, who's our CO writer on it. And so we were like, we're not, we don't have a finished screenplay to sell to you, you're buying this idea, this abstract, loose, imaginative story. And a process that I, to my knowledge is a is not a way that any other movie has been made before with this sort of, like, full a full stop motion character integrated into a live action world for a feature length. And, and a lot of places there, you know, one or the other of those ideas was a deal breaker. And finally, we found who turned out to just be like our champions, and I'm so grateful that we have them this, this company called Centereach, who financed the film almost entirely, they're a nonprofit out of New York or a not for profit out of New York, they had finance before you've you've heard of a lot of there, they've been a presence in anywhere for a while they finance piece of the Southern Wild, was there was like, I think their first really big one. And, and they usually they usually do small grants and finishing funds and things. But, but they also have this incredible team of in house producers, who were amazing and came on board. And so they were the place that we found a home for it and a home for, you know ourselves where we were supported creatively and financially. And they they were, you know, crucial to get to a movie like this getting made.

Alex Ferrari 22:00
Not only did you have the balls. But this whole package together, I need Final Cut, you got no script. You were you're just basically it's a wing and a prayer here, guys. And it's not like you've done 45 other feature films based on that kind of scenario.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 22:18
Yes, true.

Alex Ferrari 22:21
It is really unheard of. It's really, it's, you're an anomaly that this, how would this got made? But I think it's the power of the character that pushed it through?

Dean Fleischer-Camp 22:31
Absolutely. I don't think that we you'd be able to do that if it was just, you know, from scratch. And of course not, you have to have for someone to believe and have that much faith in something that abstract and that unique, it really requires it having had some record of success. And we were lucky that that was you know, early Internet where it was pretty democratic and pretty word of mouth. Successful. So because it had a little bit of a built in audience, I think that that allowed us to do that. By the way. I don't think I had balls. I think I think competence, sort of ignorance dressed up as ignorance is bliss.

Alex Ferrari 23:08
Doesn't everyone get final cut? I'm just gonna ask for Final Cut. Everyone doesn't have to put in a script. Right? You don't have to buy that. Right. You just just kind of roll with it. So I was I was watching the CBS Sunday Morning. That piece data? Yeah. Which was fantastic. Is it true that there was four versions of this movie made?

Dean Fleischer-Camp 23:26
Yeah, I mean, so we made the movie started four times we did the first round was the first couple years was writing the screenplay. And over the course of that we were we would record audio for a couple days to integrate the like Jenny's great improv and like fold in Isabella and some of the other characters. So we would record a couple days and then write and then recording, right. So that first two and a half, three years was just writing a screenplay. And towards the end of that we were, we were folding in storyboards. So by the very end of that process, we had made the movie in the sense that all the audio was locked, the script was locked, the story was locked, and it was fully storyboarded, Kyrsten laporan, I storyboard the entire movie. So that sort of animatic we could watch and it and it was, you know, we can show to friends and get feedback. And so that was the first time then you go into live action, and you shoot all the plates, those sort of all the live action elements, and then the and then that third step is the is the animation. I guess we made it at least three times, if not more, I'm not sure we made it four times, but something like that.

Alex Ferrari 24:31
A lot of that. And then you were also You were also in it, as well.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 24:35
Yes, yeah. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 24:37
You're playing an older version of yourself.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 24:41
That's so funny. Yeah. I think I'm playing a I think I'm playing a maybe a young I think I'm playing who I was like maybe in college or like shortly after, like, pretty, pretty down in the dumps and depressed, kind of a depressive. I don't, I'm glad I'm not that person anymore. But I want to sort of

Alex Ferrari 24:59
I'm also glad I'm not the guy.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 25:02
Oh my god. Could you imagine?

Alex Ferrari 25:04
Could you could you imagine? Because because it's always fun to see the the the 40 year old in the in the club. It's always Yeah, right in the corner the guy with the gray, the gray in the goatee in the corner. That's exactly what I need

Dean Fleischer-Camp 25:20
Does he own this place?

Alex Ferrari 25:21
Does he own this place? Is he? Like, what is what is he doing over there? Yeah. Oh, he's dancing. Oh, is that what these calls dancing? Oh, God. Now another thing as I'm watching the movie, I'm hearing this voice and I'm going status a Bella Rossellini. No, no way. They got Isabella Rossellini in this. And as she just the character just kept talking. I'm like, That's Isabella Rosaleen. So that the intrigue my my personal intrigue on how this movie was made, how in God's green earth that you pitched this to Isabella Rossellini, and she said, Sure, I'm gonna play a grandma shell.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 26:05
I think we got super lucky we, I mean, we went through, you know, a cast. We worked with a casting director. But we really wanted Isabella and we sent her the offer, and we sent her, you know, a brief thing about Marcel and his history on the internet. And I think that she probably by herself would have been like, No, I'm Isabella Rossellini. Luckily, her I think daughter or her kids were or maybe grandkids were. Or no, I think her dad was like, no, no, we like Marcel, like Marcel is cool. You should totally do this. And so she, she agreed to do it. And I think like, obviously, I felt like she would be incredible at it, but I didn't know kind of how perfect she would be for it. Because she is, like a lot of the things that that character change once we asked her because we were able to write it around Isabella and around what you know, Nick, and I found really charming and great about her personality. And she has so much in common with the character even before we met Isabel like she literally lives on a farm and knows a ton about about farming and gardening. She has a master's in animal behavior. And, and she also is like, she's, she doesn't kind of suffer fools she doesn't. She's She's just like a very charmingly blunt and not mean but charmingly blunt person who cuts right to the quick of things. And that became obviously like a central thing about Nana County, but some some of that. Some of the B roll you can kind of hear just like the texture of her, like for example, when she's showing me her strawberry in the movie. That's literally her just showing me around her farm and me like interviewing her asking her questions about her farm.

Alex Ferrari 27:39
Really, that's how I'm gonna incorporate that in a movie. I'm gonna put that in. Yeah, it's such a fascinating process, dude. Like this is yeah. I mean, like I said, when I want to walk out of the theater, I'm like, I have to have deep I have to find out how this was made. Because it look I mean, I've been I've been hustling in the film game for Yeah, you know, close to 30 years now, with my own projects, and then with the show now that I've heard 1000s of stories, just and I've studied every anomaly known to man, from mariachi to paranormal, I mean, I've studied all of them had a chance to talk to some of these filmmakers. And I saw this, I'm like, I can't wrap my head about how this was made. And that doesn't happen often. Normally. I'm like, Oh, this is what happened, this was happened. And even with the knowledge of the shorts and the IP, it's still such an uphill battle, to try to get something like this and maintain this soul that you guys were able to maintain with the movie you didn't SKU off. You knew exactly who Marcel was. And it you know, I mean, by the way, every time he threw up, I just couldn't stop laughing. It's just gonna stop laughing. Sorry. I just I just, I just it just came into my head. I'm like, oh, yeah, car and the Carter. Yeah.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 28:51
One of my favorite parts as well. I think that it's like, you know, people have been asking me, obviously, well, what's the what was the genesis? You know, you made the character 12 years ago, it took seven years to make the movie? And the answer to the question, like, how does this movie get made in that exact, very unique way is time you you in walking away from those studio deals, you also walk away from a quick turnaround, because the the end road is going to be hard and you're you know, one of your only things that's in your corner is that you have more time than like a studio would require to spit out something or put it on their slate it's a huge advantage. But you are taking a risk that you know it just never sees the light of day or the if specially if it's an internet thing like that you miss your your moment of popularity or something. But it just felt so it just felt like the right thing to do. And I knew that I would feel like a real show that making a terrible Marcel movie with a character whose potential I knew.

Alex Ferrari 29:52
Yeah, it's remarkable. I have to ask you the question though, man. This is something that a lot of filmmakers don't don't understand. it and are dealing with as they as they're listening to this right now. How did you get through this those years? How did you get through those years of not getting the success that you want it not getting the opportunities you want it having to knock on doors and doors being closed on your face the nose and the nose and the nose? Or the yeses? But yes is with with oil to get this Yes, units, you get the strings and string. How did you get through all of those those years? Because this was over a decade of your life with this character and getting getting this thing made? How do you keep going all those years?

Dean Fleischer-Camp 30:36
I think that's something that is important. At some point, I realized you have to like I wasn't a super, I don't know, some of my like homeschool friends like graduated from film school and they were so you know, willing to just kick open the door and like give someone the elevator pitch for their screenplay and, and that works out sometimes. And as someone whose that just doesn't come naturally to I, I realized that I was at some point I made sort of a promise, I think with Nick Paley who co wrote the film that we're always going to hold each other accountable to at least get to know that actual firm No, before we give up on a project. And that is incredibly important. Because I'm, at least before this, I was super willing to you know, if someone just gave me the runaround, or they said we don't know, I don't know, let's let's come back to me in March or whatever, you know, like, I would just I would let those failures or quasi failures really get to me and I interpreted it as a message that just project you know that that was a no, but the truth is, you don't know unless you get to affirm. No. So now I think and I tell this to like anyone who wants to be an indie filmmaker, get to know, at least get to know, because probably they'll say yes, before they say no. If you you know

Alex Ferrari 31:55
So no one asked you the technical stuff. Alright, so you guys shot this?

Dean Fleischer-Camp 32:02
Wait, can I say one of the things actually real quick, going back to what you said about like, studying El Mariachi and? And those other sorts of movies that? I? Yeah. I don't remember who told me this. But I read or someone said to me, every time someone asked me how like I made it or how I got that movie, that first thing that I tell them. Here's how I made it. But don't copy my playbook because Hollywood's like a bank. And every time someone exploits an insecurity, they're going to close it up immediately. You can never do it the same way twice.

Alex Ferrari 32:37
And that's the thing I've learned over the years is that when you because I was always trying to hack my way in, I was trying to like, well, if I go down this road, right, I'll do what Kevin Smith did, or I'll do what Yeah, Joe Carnahan did or I'll do you know, and I'll just kind of go all these ways. And I realized years later after going back and looking like, oh, there was never another El Mariachi. Or that style. There was never another clerks. There was never another Brothers McMullen. There was never another paranormal activity or Blair Witch. Yeah, like, they're like, they snuck into the party. And then the bouncer came in, and shut the door and make sure nobody. Exactly. So the exact same thing with Marcel no one's ever going to walk this path. This is your path and your path alone. People can get inspiration from it. And you know, but they're like, Okay, I'm gonna go make a show. I promise you right now someone's listening, and is going, I'm gonna go make an animated short, with stop motion. And I'm gonna create a character and I'm going to and they're going to try to do this rote. And they're gonna go, Oh, it didn't work. Why did it work for them? Because it was your it was yours. This was this was gifted to you from the gods. And you're like, This is yours. Take care of it. And guided, guided through.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 33:52
I don't want to discourage anyone from going in May. Thanks.

Alex Ferrari 33:55
Absolutely. But not the exact same thing. But

Dean Fleischer-Camp 33:58
Yeah, yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, it's true. And, you know, to some extent, I think to continue a healthy artistic practice, you can't get caught up in Why didn't this work? Or how do I, you know, how do I get to that person's level, like, you got to just the lighting and control is, is your work.

Alex Ferrari 34:15
But the thing is this, and this is something that I found so true, after years of talking to all of these great filmmakers, is every great filmmaker, every great artist, every great writer, every single one of them is true to themselves. It is their essence, coming through their work. They're not copying anybody else. They're not. They're not doing they're not you know, I'm not trying to be David Fincher, I'm not trying to be Christian. They are who they are. And that is the that is the key to success as an artist, and but that's the scariest thing to come out with a shell with a googly eye and some shoes on and say this is me and put it out on the do I mean serious? That's you guys. That was something that was so purely you. It's not like you said, You know what there was this other shell with two googly eyes. I'm gonna do one. It was something that was so personal to you. And that's what made the success of that at that character.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 35:14
Yeah, it's also a numbers game like luck. I mean, yeah, I mean, you would use the amount of luck required to by making many more things. So I mean, sure, Marcel was the first thing that really took off. But before that I was hassling it as an editor of the waterbirth videos and creating and creating shorts with my friends that, you know, they never went anywhere, though. No one's ever seen those. But it wasn't. Yeah, you got to not it's not a No, I don't wanna say it's a numbers game. But I think you just have to remain in practice. Just kind of,

Alex Ferrari 35:49
You just grind. It's the grind and the persistence of showing up. And I know, yeah, this. Look, there's so many people that make it in this business, who really aren't the most talented, but the most persistent sir.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 35:59
Yes, totally. That's those people that are kicking down doors and given executives elevator pitches when they're like 19.

Alex Ferrari 36:06
Right, exactly. But you also know people who are extremely talented, but haven't gotten the shot. So yeah, you know, it's, you wonder like, why haven't they gotten the shot, but this other guy, or this other girl got the shot and it just not as down? Like nothing against them. It's just, they just don't have the goods the same? Yeah, it's really fascinating. It's a fascinating thing. But if you can be true to yourself and be an expression of who you really are something personal to you. That's the key that you need your secret sauce, that secret sauce is what sets you apart from the crap.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 36:37
And you also won't if you're making something that's personal and true and true to your heart. Yeah, the money is if you are happy to be successful, you know, it doesn't matter so much. of your being standing true to your heart, you're expressing yourself. That's a that's a and and that's the value is sustaining. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 36:53
Absolutely. So alright, so you guys shot it, dude, you guys shot the the shells in? You actually shot it stop motion? Yeah, yeah. And they kind of comped it, or was it all on camera?

Dean Fleischer-Camp 37:07
No. So we, I felt from the beginning, like, well, I want this to feel like a real documentary I honestly had never seen and maybe still haven't like a quote unquote, documentary that doesn't just use it as kind of a joke and make fun of its characters. And so I was like, I want to do a mockumentary about this character. And it'll be funny, but I want to treat him with dignity and tell his story with the same kind of respect that you would tell any documentary subjects story. So part of the difficulty is that it's like, okay, well, you know, it's gonna be a Veritate documentary and have that kind of intimacy. How are you going to do handheld motion with a stop motion character, and it's very, very hard, it turns out, but what we did was that we shot everything, live action without characters in it. And then Marcel, and all the animated characters are shot on the animation stage and composited into live action footage. But because like I've been describing it, like everyone knows how a Marvel movie gets made. It's like the shoot the live action. And then step two is that the the VFX artists model and composite things in the computer into the footage, instead of a VFX. Team? Not I mean, we also have to be flexible, but instead of a computer, we have a our step two as a second shoot an animated animation shoot. And because of that, the lighting on Marcel and all the movement and all and all the shadows has to match perfectly with the live action shoot, or he's not going to comp properly. Because it's a real piece of footage. Marcel is a real stop motion piece of footage. You can't alter the lighting later when you're compositing. And so that required our stop motion DP Eric Atkins being on set every day and taking the most meticulous notes on on the lighting setup so that he can recreate it on the stages down to like, okay, Marcel's standing four inches from a Coca Cola cannon that might bounce light. So like things like that, every scenario every time I looked down at his iPad on set, it just looked like scratching from like A Beautiful Mind. It's just like equations and math and like measurements and but but he did it and he has a real engineering brain for that sort of thing. And it's incredible. And when Marcel's interacting with things, shadows, like for example, when he's in the car, there's you know, are passing by trees and the shadows flickering across. And so for each one of those shadows, Eric had to take a look at the time code, we're passing a tree at this time code, and then and then automate a flag to pass by the light to sync up perfectly with when we pass by the tree. So all of that is super meticulous, incredible work by our cinematographers on the animation team. I mean, I'm sorry and the VFX team also crucial

Alex Ferrari 39:47
No, no I just in our that because I know what everything you're saying. I understand exactly what you have went through and it's insane. It's beautiful. It's a beautifully shot film. It the animation was so good that I was like Is this a CG character that they made look like stop motion because that would make the most sense. Easiest play to do something like that. But then I would see like that like man, the cut that stop motion like the tear, and they got that stuff going they're really doing a good job with that. Like, if that if that is CG like man, so I was like it was so this movie fascinates me is so multiple levels, my friend multiple, double the levels. So then I have to ask you, Why is everyone so touched by a shell with a googly eye and a small pair of shoes that what is it about this character? That everyone? I mean, I teared up in the damn movie, man. I'm like, why am I tearing up over a damn shout?

Dean Fleischer-Camp 40:40
Some funny people keep coming up to me being like, I saw your movie. I'm bald and I can be like, great. That's awesome. Yeah. But I think that what is true about why he resonates with so many people is that we all know what it's like to sort of live in a world that wasn't made for us, you know, either from childhood where you're, you know, literally you are. And then I think a lot of us, most of us grow up and we realize like, Oh, dang it. I'm still living in a world that wasn't made for me, but just for different reasons in my eyes, and, and you know, Marcel, Marcel, obviously, that's his reality. But he doesn't. He doesn't get hung up. I find him very actually, like, inspirational to me. And when you're talking about like, how do you sustain yourself over seven years, it's like, I feel sustained and inspired by that character. He doesn't he get, you know, he has these huge outsize obstacles thrown at him. He doesn't see the impossibility of that. He just sees it as like, another thing to overcome. He will overcome it. It's not personal, just like yesterday, and just like tomorrow, and he's he actually enjoys the challenge.

Alex Ferrari 41:50
Well, I mean, my my daughters haven't seen it yet. Because it hasn't come out yet. As of today. They're 10. So Oh, great. So we did get Yes. I'm like, I'm actually 25 years old with it done to me. But I actually did at the screening, get the stick on a 20. Oh, yeah. The little peel offs and stick on like, so they're in Marcel's in my, in my my girls bathroom right now, as we speak, it was like first time I hear girls, I got something for you. And they put them up into like, I don't know who this is. But they're drawn instantly. They haven't even I think I showed him the addition to the trailer. They're like, oh, I want to watch that. And I'm like, oh, yeah, and my girls are gonna ball. It's gonna be fantastic. Now, last question,

Dean Fleischer-Camp 42:37
I's so glad to hear that because Oh, sorry. Yeah, no, that.

Alex Ferrari 42:40
No, no, no, you're saying,

Dean Fleischer-Camp 42:42
I was just gonna say, I'm so glad to hear that. Because I think, you know, like, we made this movie to appeal to our own sensibilities. And it was always sort of a question. Like, we want kids it to be family friendly. And we want kids to enjoy it. But we weren't sure if it was gonna play young because it's, you know, it's not like the spectacle that, like the minions is or whatever. And so, so, but I've been really, like, really pleased to see that kids as young as like, five or six, like, really loved the movie and, and are laughing at all the same places that we are mostly,

Alex Ferrari 43:14
I mean, I mean, you just have to throw your throw up. So when you got a couple, you got a shell throwing up, sir. I mean, you've you've got them. Sorry, you've, you've hit that demographic fairly well. Last question, man. And how did A24 hated this?

Dean Fleischer-Camp 43:28
Or A24. Got involved? I'm so like, they've done such a great job of helping to, you know, bring it to audiences and hopefully get you know, make sure it's seen by the people that would want to see a movie like this. They got involved because we screened it. The Telluride, we premiered at the Telluride Film Festival last August or September. And they, they bought it after shortly after that. And it was such a beautiful coincidence that they were I think that they're trying to I don't know if they don't I think they're trying to you know, branch out and do movies that aren't just like, the typical A24 movie, whatever that is.

Alex Ferrari 44:11
Right! There is no wait.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 44:14
It's really weird. It's like people are like, Oh, it's like folk horror or dark shit. And it's unlike. I mean, Moonlight. ladybird. menari. Like, none of those are

Alex Ferrari 44:23
Everything, everything everywhere all at once. I mean, totally. Hot Dog fingers, sir. There's hot dogs. So, last question. What's next for Marcel? When's the when's the sequel?

Dean Fleischer-Camp 44:37
I don't know whenever Ryan Reynolds freeze up. I don't know. I mean, you know, hopefully the movie comes out finds an audience and there's a there's a market for a sequel, but I know for sure that like, I got so excited when we started developing his community, which was one of the last things that we sort of did because we're not in the movie for very long and now like I love those characters, but they're all Yeah, exactly. And some of them have really great, you know, voice talent attached to them. So I'd love to do something that you know features a few more of those characters. Let's see,

Alex Ferrari 45:11
Dean man, I thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm so happy that this movie exists in the world and in this universe. I appreciate it. We needed more than ever. I think now we need we need a film like this. We need to we need Marcel. We need Marcel we need some happiness. We need to connect to those kinds of characters against a brother man. I appreciate you making the movie and nothing but continued success, man. I can't wait to see if you come up with next brother.

Dean Fleischer-Camp 45:37
Thank you. This has been so fun talking to you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been great. Also where can I get a hustle hat?

Alex Ferrari 45:43
At my store at I appreciate you brother. Thanks, man!

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Jambox.io – Royalty Free Music for Indie Films – 20% OFF (Coupon Code: HUSTLE20)
  2. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  3. Enigma Elements – Cinematic Tools & Assets for Serious Filmmakers
  4. Audible – Get a Free Filmmaking or Screenwriting Audiobook