IFH 614: Kubrick, Nolan & Spielberg: The Power of Staging with Mark W. Travis

Mark W. Travis acclaimed as “the director’s director”, Mark W. Travis is regarded by many Hollywood and International professionals as one of the world’s leading authorities in the art and craft of film directing. Drawing from his impressive background in design, writing, acting, and his wide range of experience directing theater, film and television, Mark is able to bring new insights and exceptional clarity to the complex task of directing the feature film.

Mark W. Travis earned a B.A. degree in Theatre at Antioch College and did his graduate training in Directing in the MFA program at the Yale School of Drama. Mark is a creative consultant to film directors Mark Rydell, George Tillman, Cyrus Nowrasteh and many other notable writers and directors.

Mark’s television directing credits include The Facts of Life, Family Ties, Capitol and the Emmy Award-winning PBS dramatic special, Blind Tom: The Thomas Bethune Story. In 1998 he directed the pilot for LifeStories.

In 1990 he completed his first film, Going Under, for Warner Bros., starring Bill Pullman and Ned Beatty. In 2001 he wrote and directed The Baritones (parody of The Sopranos) as well as the short documentary, Earlet. In 2006 he co-directed the documentary, Ancient Light.

Mark’s unique approach to working with actors and characters (The Travis Technique) has gained the attention of directors, writers and actors worldwide and is becoming a standard approach for stimulating powerful performances.

Since 1992 Mark has been sharing his techniques on writing, acting and directing worldwide.

  • USA: The Directors Guild, American Film Institute, Pixar Animations Studios, UCLA Extension, Taos Talking Pictures Film Festival, Denver Film Festival, Hollywood Actor’s Workshop, Hollywood Film Institute.
  • JAPAN: Film & Media Lab and Vantan Film School.
  • GERMANY: UW Filmseminares, ActionConcept, IFS, and HFF, the Munich Film School.
  • POLAND: The Film Farm in Kotla.
  • ENGLAND: Raindance, Paradigm Film Productions, Hurtwood House, Metropolitan Film School, National Film and Television School, London Film School, Lionhead Studios, London Film Academy.
  • FRANCE: The Cannes Film Festival,
  • NETHERLANDS: The Maurits Binger Institute.
  • UKRAINE: HSU in Kiev, OIFF in Odessa;
  • RUSSIA: International Film Actors Workshop,
  • IRELAND: FAS Screen Training Ireland,
  • NORWAY: The Norwegian Film School,
  • DENMARK: The National Film School ofDenmark,
  • SPAIN: afilm International Film Workshops,
  • CZECH REPUBLIC: FAMU Academy of Film and Television.

Mark has served as a Creative Consultant on several feature films including: Here’s Herbie; Notorious; Not Forgotten; The Stoning of Soraya M,; Black Irish; Men of Honor; Barbershop; Barbershop 2; The Day Reagan Was Shot; Norma Jean, Jack and Me and television episodes of: Lois and Clark; The Pretender; Picket Fences, 90210, Melrose Place; Strong Medicine; NYPD Blue; The Practice and Ally MacBeal.

Mark is the author of the Number-One Best Seller (L.A. Times), THE DIRECTOR’S JOURNEY: the Creative Collaboration between Directors, Writers and Actors. His second book on directing, DIRECTING FEATURE FILMS (published in April of 2002) is currently used as required text in film schools worldwide. His next book, THE FILM DIRECTOR’S BAG OF TRICKS will be published in September 2011.

Please enjoy my conversation with Mark Travis.

Mark Travis 0:00
But if I staged her to a point of comfort and I asked for discomfort now she's getting mixed messages. And quite honestly, Alex, the actress may not know that she's getting mixed messages. She just knows she has to do one thing at that moment. She's feeling comfortable. I'm asking for discomfort. She's gonna have to do something you don't want. She's gonna have to act.

Alex Ferrari 0:23
This episode is brought to you by the Best Selling Book Rise of the Filmtrepreneur how to turn your independent film into a money making business. Learn more at filmbizbook.com. I like to welcome back to the show returning champion Mark Travis.

Mark Travis 0:40
I'm totally great. I didn't expect returning champion.

Alex Ferrari 0:45
You were in episode 154. Very well, a variable received episode over the years how to direct the character not the actor, which was your The Travis Technique and all that stuff. And it was a fantastic conversation. We it's almost two hours if I remember. It was a long conversation about that. And because it was just a unique way of a director approaching raft, it was just completely different. But it's been a while you're you're due back, sir. You're you're you're late, you should have been back years ago. But but in this episode, we're really going to focus on another area that you're really trying to change the game and as well as staging. So before we get into staging, can you tell everybody a little bit about yourself, where you come from how you got into the business?

Mark Travis 1:37
Yeah, first of all, I'm a director, writer, actor, and all that in this business, how I got into this business, which is really important. And anything we're discussing is, I came into this world through theater. And it was when I was in college, I discovered theater and something clicked. And I started working a lot in theater, and studying theater. And I went to Yale Drama School to study as a director in the MFA program. And that's how I got into this business. And then somehow, I ended up in Los Angeles and started studying film. The reason I mentioned the theater part is because my career has done a very, all by itself, an interesting shift, which I was not expecting many years ago, I was directing, I was directing television, I directed my first feature film, which did not do well. And there was for a major studio known as Warner Brothers. And we could talk about that and why not to do what I did. But then if you know, we're your first film with a major studio, if it doesn't do well, boy, you you have a big albatross on your back anyway. That but that led me to where I am now into teaching, ironically. And what I discovered is everything I've learned everything I know all the skills I've acquired. My teaching, has done two things. First of all, it has given me a whole nother projected in terms of the work I'm doing, teaching, consulting, coaching, and all that. But the important thing about teaching anything, but especially a craft like filmmaking, is you'll get questions like, Why did you do it this way? Or how do you do this? Or why do you do that? And you have to come up with an answer. Now the thing is, most of what we do as directors, or so much of what we do is by instinct, intuition. I'm gonna put the camera here, I'm gonna direct it this way. No, I want it on this location. But if someone asks you a why, to explain to me why you're making that choice in terms of your film, you really have to think about what you have to do as a teacher is look at what you're doing, and try to understand what you're doing, and then be able to explain it to somebody else in such a way that they can understand not necessarily that they have to do that, but they can understand why you're making those choices. So in terms of the staging, which we'll talk about today, staging and terms of storytelling is a very, very important aspect of it, whether it's theatre or film, but we'll talk about theater for a second here or more. In theater, it's all you've got. You've got the play, you've got the cast, you've got the set, you've got the lights, you've got all that staging is your most powerful tool and you have to stage the place somehow. You have to do something, what you don't have a lot of things you don't have in theater. You don't have a camera, you don't have multiple takes. You don't have editing, you don't have all those tools that we have and rely heavily on in filmmaking. So staging has to work and you have to learn in theater, which I did and still I still direct theater. How can I focus The audience the way I want them to be, how can I highlight something? How can I stimulate the actors? How can I use this tool, I have to use this tool, the stage to make the play work. So that's suicide when I started teaching, film directing. And once again, we're looking at a scene and many times, I'd look at a scene that a student would bring in, and I'd say, Okay, this is good. But you know, the staging is off. Let me show you something. And I would show them something, they say, How did you do that? Suddenly, the scene would change. Now I have to figure out why. After years of directing why I'm making that choice, and how does it come to me. So this is a serious part of my work now, in my work now to, which we haven't discussed yet, Alex, but I will happy to is, I am trying to be very clearly in these coming years, I focus on a couple of things, one, understand what I do and why I do it, and how it works and why it works. And the other is, and that's why I'm doing podcasts, and a lot of online teaching, is to record all of it. So it's there. It's a legacy project. So I can say, I have recorded this, I've stopped writing books, because I can't write a book well enough, that you can see what I'm doing. But I can record something, I can record a video I can. And so now a lot of my teaching, I'm using a lot of video and a lot of film clips. So you can actually see the process and see the change, you have to see it, you can't just read about it. So that's where I am now. And I'm doing a lot of online seminars, workshops. I'm in the middle of one now, which is on staging, ironically, and which we'll finish up next week. I'm doing those in order for me to continue to do this exploration, and then share all the ideas with other filmmakers around the world.

Alex Ferrari 7:02
Fantastic. I've always been fascinated with your teaching technique and what you've been doing. But since you brought it up, I need to go back and ask your first feature or a feature that you did with Warner's going under? I'm not mistaken.

Mark Travis 7:19
And that's what it did.

Alex Ferrari 7:21
Went straight down to the bottom. But I mean, the cast I mean, you had Bill Pullman, you had net, and a bunch of other cast cast the character.

Mark Travis 7:33
Roddy McDowell doing an impression of Mr. Rogers in the film. I bet no, I had some amazing actors.

Alex Ferrari 7:43
So with so when you when you went through that process, and this I always love it, I love digging into these kind of conversations in the stories, because filmmakers don't understand. And yeah, it was the 90s. And it's a different world than it was today and things like that. But a lot of the core lessons are still there. So right when they're you made your movie didn't do well. The town threw you into directors jail, basically, if that's that's generally what happens, right?

Mark Travis 8:09
Especially, what happens is the budget of this, by the way, it was wrong. 9 million, which to them was pocket change.

Alex Ferrari 8:17
So that's like an equivalent of maybe a 50 or $60 million studio movie today. Not dollar wise, but scope wise of what you

Mark Travis 8:26
Scope wise. Yes. And it's one of those a little bit about that we we myself and the two writers. We're seeking to make it for 3 million independently. And Warner Brothers got interested in as a lot of that's a long story, which has something to do with Bronx Tale of why they were interested because I create A Bronx Tale anyway. And so they wanted to talk to me, but as soon as the student they took it over as a independent project that they were just going to do a negative pickup on. And then they decided they Warner Brothers decided to produce it. They said no, no, it's not going to be a negative. And that's when it went from 3 million suddenly to 9 million. And getting back to what you're talking about. Did anything change? No, it just got more expensive. And all the vendors that we had already lined up to work on this project. Suddenly their prices went up when it said Warner Brothers shot and I got I got more money, but I can't do anymore. I can't do more with it. But I got more money to spend but but that's it. So so what happened was it exploded financially. And it also exploded in terms of studio control.

Alex Ferrari 9:46
And that's it. Yeah, the studio at the same time. Start to crawl up your butt.

Mark Travis 9:50
Yep, absolutely. And there were a lot of other stories If you want to talk about them later. I can. It's a long painful, beautiful but painful story. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 9:59
So Yeah, and it's just a classic tale of what happens in the studio system. Unless you're a big hitter, and you can, you're the 800 pound gorilla. Or you can walk around with Scott and do whatever the hell you want a different conversation when it's your first time out, and you got to chat.

Mark Travis 10:17
Now one little thing, I'll make this short. Bob Daley, who is head of Warner Brothers at the time, and when the film was finished, and he wanted to meet with me, and we had a very nice meeting. And I'm not going to get into all of this right now. But the internal politics of a major studio, once they are producing your film, you're, you're part of that. And you're part of, and you get into the competition between executives between them that it's like the world's most dysfunctional family. And all Bob Daley could say to me afterwards, he says, I'm sorry, Mark, you're just at the wrong place at the wrong time. Had nothing to do with the film, the quality of the film it had to do with the internal politics that was going on the wars that were going on.

Alex Ferrari 11:04
And I can only imagine what's going on at Warner Brothers again with that girl, they just shelled the 100 million dollar finished film.

Mark Travis 11:14
I know. Extraordinary. That Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 11:17
I mean, they'll dump it on HBO Max. I mean, how bad they've released Catwoman like what? How bad is bad girl that they just so you know, the politics? You know, how many people lost their jobs during that, that there's so much stuff going on?

Mark Travis 11:34
It's the walls effect if they really if they released it now, even just streaming? Do you know how many people would want to see Oh, my God, how bad is this really?

Alex Ferrari 11:44
Was like cats. I mean, cats was so bad. Yeah, that it's the worst thing to happen to cats and dogs. But my favorite line, your favorite. That's great. I'm right. That was good. It was a Twitter review. I was like, oh my god, that is amazing. I stopped 20 minutes in I couldn't I just couldn't go any farther. And that would be so so bad. But I got to start to watch it. And the only reason I wanted to watch it was how bad is this? Yeah.

Mark Travis 12:13
And you found out? And that's good. So it was what you expected or worse anyway, but that's

Alex Ferrari 12:20
And that's the thing too, with bad girl is that you're right. If there's a reason why it's not being released, and it's politics, Internal. Internal politics is the only reason why it's not getting released. Because there's value there. Even if it's a bet look, Warner Brothers puts out bad movies. They've put out a ton of bad movies in the in the history of Warner Brothers. Yeah, what made this one so special of how bad is it? It's insane. But anyway, that just wanted to kind of go go wander with you again, take you back to the some of the worst times of your life and really relive them, sir.

Mark Travis 12:52
Yes, thank you. Thank you. So it got so bad I ended up in the hospital. So there.

Alex Ferrari 13:00
I know many directors. I've had panic attacks on set. Oh, it's it's not it's not a fun. It's not an easy job. Now, there's a question I wanted to ask you. You've talked about the four languages of cinema, what are the four languages of cinema?

Mark Travis 13:15
Four languages. Well, first of all, there is the visual language, which we which is a whole nother subject, which is huge, because it's a visual medium. So is that visual, and when I say language is that we you as the filmmaker are actually communicating with your audience through these four languages. So what one is the visual however you shoot it, the looks, the production design, the aesthetics, the CGI, whatever it is, there's that visual language. The second language is very clearly the dialogue which is a language that's usually in English, whatever, but that dialogue and how in the script and how in the final film, you're using dialogue, how dialogue is communicating with the audience, and all four languages are communicating the the audience simultaneously. The third language is sound, aside from dialogue, but a sound sound effects music, and however you're using the element of audio and sound to tell your story. Now, the fourth one, which I've never heard anybody else talk about this, but this is this is me, this is my way look at the fourth one is staging. Because and this is why staging, I talked about the Power of Staging staging is way more powerful than most people really understand. Because of some very basic things now staging just to define it or blocking whatever you want to call it. Blocking is more of a theater term staging is more of a film term doesn't matter. It's pretty much the same thing. I'm telling Talking about the movement of the characters in the space and the environment that are in, I'm talking about characters in relationship moving in relationship to each other. I'm talking about relationship to the room or the space, and even very specifically, very powerfully, a character's movement in relationship to him or herself, which is very simply body language body line. Now, all of these movements, communicate with the audience. If you have two people talking to each other, for instance, like this, and one turns away from the other, that staging, because we look at that, and we go, oh, what's going on? Something's going on. So even the most minut things, even if you get into really micro staging, it can be a look, a look at that character. Now, maybe this is choice of this look, from one character to another was made in post production, but that staging is communication, it is a language. Now there are two things about staging that are really essential, and from my perspective, and my experience is I can take two actors in a room, say in an office, and they're doing a scene, they say it's an interview scene, and someone's interviewing for a job or something like that. And I know that with these two people, I have two people. And I have a space, which is just an office, there's nothing really extraordinary about the office, it's fine, it belongs to one guy, and not to the young woman will say it's the boss and the young woman. But I know as I move these two, I just want to talk about the actors. Now forget the characters for a moment. Where I start the scene, if I start that office interview with the boss sitting behind his desk, and she walks in, and I walk and I stage it I say walk in, I walk her into a space, where she is not near any furniture, she has no support as I stopped there. I just know that move will affect her the actress emotionally, she will feel unsupported, she'll feel insecure something. If I walk her in and have her sit on a chair in front of his desk, she'll have another emotional experience automatically. Now, the wonderful thing about actors really good actors is they will allow themselves to be open to whatever the staging is doing to them. So I can stage these two actors in a way to trigger emotions in both actors.

If I start out the scene, she's going to walk in, but he's at the window looking out of the window, she's going to have a different emotional reaction when she sees him. And he'll feel differently, I can put him in positions of power, I can put him in positions where he'll lose power, all of that. So in other words, staging, when you're staging actors. Remember, it's not just about the way it looks on the set, or the way it looks on camera. And for the moment, I would say, forget the cameras for a moment, you got to make it work organically with these actors. That's when you're staging remember that you are triggering, no matter what you do, anything you do, it's triggering an emotion within the actor. And what you want to do is triggered the emotion that the actor needs for the character. If if you say to that young woman coming in for the interview, if you bring her in and sit her down in a chair in a nice chair in front of the office, and you say to her, how do you feel she says, Great, this is good. Now she's comfortable. And then you say to her, Okay, let's do the same. Remember, you're really uncomfortable. While you now you're at cross purposes, your staging has said, Be comfortable. Your direction has said be uncomfortable. It's better to put her in a place where she's uncomfortable.

And in fact, when I'm staging something, if I'm staging this young woman, I say I come in here, just stand here. How do you feel what standing here away from all this furniture and this sort of no man zone, and she's, this doesn't feel good, I'll say good. And many times the actual go Got it. Got it. In other words, they understand this is an important part of staging. I can communicate with an actor what I want from the actor, just by the way, I staged them. But if I staged her to a point of comfort, and I asked for discomfort, now she's getting mixed messages. And quite honestly, Alex, the actress may not know that she's getting mixed messages. She just knows she has to do one thing at that moment. She's feeling comfortable. I'm asking her discomfort. She's going to have to do something you don't want. She's going to have to act. She's gonna have to, she's gonna have to pretend to be uncomfortable, find discomfort, go through a sense memory, whatever she's going to have to do. I'm trying to avoid that kind of acting, which you know from my run During the view about work directing the the character rather than the actor, that I don't want her to act. The what's really clear to me about characters and emotional states is that all of us are characters in our lives. And you and I are Alex right now, whatever with whatever's going on. And what we deal with as we go through our lives is we get hit by a lot of stimuli, we get hit by thoughts, we get hit by what we see what we hear what we taste, and we go, and we have emotional reactions, we see somebody that we didn't want to see and hope never to see you again. And suddenly we're upset or angry or afraid. In other words, all this stimuli comes. And this also stimuli from within us our thoughts, our patterns. So we go through life having a emotional reactions to our daily existence. And what we do is we deal with those emotional reactions as best as we can. When you see that person, then suddenly, you know, it's all It feels very romantic, you go, Oh, my God, she's so gorgeous, you try to deal with that the best that you may be, you try to hold on to that. That's what we do, we do not go through life very important, trying to stimulate emotional reactions. So when you say to the actress who's very comfortable, I want you to be uncomfortable. Remember, you're very uncomfortable. Now she's gonna have to stimulate something that she's genuinely not feeling at all. So there's this huge disconnect. So staging is a way not only of communicating to the actors what you want, but it's also triggering those emotions inside the actress. Now, as you do that, again, forget the cameras for a moment, as you do that, and you watch it, or anybody watches it. Now we're back to theater for a bit a little bit, as the audience watches that the audience by projection will respond as well. She comes into the office, she's standing in a very uncomfortable place, she's feeling uncomfortable, but the audience goes, Oh, my God, that's so uncomfortable with that. In other words, the audience is now help you are helping the audience help you connect with what's really going on. So you're actually through the staging, not only communicating with the actors, and then the characters, you're also communicating with the audience. Your staging is telling the audience exactly what's happening inside the characters. So it's a very powerful, that's why it becomes a language. It's a language between you and the actor, the character and the audience. Staging is a language.

Alex Ferrari 22:39
So what happens when an actor decides to go his or her own way in a scene where there's like an improv or they seem to want to go somewhere else? And it's not exactly what you either discussed, or, you know, it's a little bit more fluid, they want to act a little bit more fluid and not hit marks and do turns and they just want to be more in the moment. And, and there are actors, obviously, who love to be in the moment. And we'd love that. Well, how do you in this scenario? How would you deal with that?

Mark Travis 23:09
Well, it gets very tricky. I mean, you have to as an individual director, I'm talking to you, Alex, but anybody who's listening you as a director have to decide for yourself with that project, who will say you know, project by project this can change how you want to handle that how strict you want to be in terms of that kind of movement, and even in dialogue. Are you going to if they want to improvise movements, are they also improvising dialogue? how loose you want this project to be, or this scene how you wanted to, then I've done some projects where scenes are heavily, heavily improvised, but that's just that one scene in the movie. Because I felt with that scene, this is how I'm going to find something even better. So you have to decide. But getting back to what you're saying, the actor says no, no, no, don't tell me where to go. Don't tell me what to do. I'll figure it out. Two things and I'll tell you a quick story about the Actors Studio, something that happened there. The one thing we all of us human beings by instinct, will do we go through life doing tooth very simple things. We go through life seeking comfort, and avoiding conflict. So as an actor coming into a scene by instinct of that being that person this has nothing to do with actors and has to do with that he or she is a human being will seek comfort. They will go to a place on the set of the stage or in relationship to the other actors that feels good. And it will most often feel good to the actor has nothing to do with a character. So they will seek comfort and they will avoid conflict. Now we're telling stories. And as you know, as a writer and director, what are more So my stories are about discomfort and conflict. That's it. If you don't have discomfort and conflict, what do you have? You have a boring story, and you'd have. So all of us by instinct will do that. So you gotta, you gotta be aware of that my job when I'm staging, and I will tell the actors as when I'm staging a scene, I said, Listen, my job as the director is to get your character into trouble. Your job as the actor through the character is to try to figure out how to get out. That's it. In other words, I am going to create the conflict, I'm going to create the problems that the character is experiencing you through the character try to do is try to work now that gets us back, closer to what real life is like, we go through life, we have a problem, we try to work our way I want to duplicate or represent as closely as I can authentic behavior, not planned behavior, not planned emotions, not planned line readings and things like that. I want to create an environment where the actor as the character is, is working on instinct as the character. And one way to do that, literally. And I could show this is to take away from the character, the opportunity to just go wherever he wants. And people say, well, there isn't that kind of controlling? Absolutely, it is. But I'll tell you something else. It's very controlling in this business, somebody wrote a lot of words that says, This is what the character says, now there's control right there. This, this is part of part of what we're doing. We got these lines. And now if you want to get into the technical part, yeah, you got a camera here, you got lights there, you can't just go anywhere, because you go to that corner, there's no light there. You know, it's, the whole process is major control. But what I'm aiming for is that kind of major control, you got the dialogue, and you got the staging.

And But within that, which goes back to the interrogation process, total, a total emotional freedom, I'm not going to tell the actor or require the actor respond emotionally in any, any way at any time. I want it to be on instinct at that moment, under the pressures of all of this control. So that's, that's the dynamic I want to set up. But to go one step further with your question, if you want to go into this, or you have let me go back to what you said the other this actor said, No, don't tell me where to go. Don't tell me what to do. You know, give the give the actor a break, say, Okay, let me see it. Let me see what you're gonna do. Let me see, you may be surprised you make a hole, that's, that's actually a little bit better than what I had. Let's but then you got to lock it down a little bit. You can't say every take, it's gonna be all over the place, you can't do that. So you got you got to give the actor the benefit of the doubt that they may have something or you may end up which often is the case of a combination between what you were thinking and what the actor was thinking. And you find that middle ground, which is actually a richer collaboration combination of the two.

Alex Ferrari 28:14
My from my experience, I found that if you hire the right actors, they generally know the character much better than you do. They've done a lot more homework on the specific character, and given the character backstory, and all sorts of things. So they might do a little bit of business, that really adds a lot of value. And they might just do a movement or maybe just crossing the arms or crossing the legs or turning the bar and doing so adds so much to the scene that you might have not seen coming. So I would love to collaborate with the actors. But you're right, at a certain point, there has to be okay, is this what we're doing? We gotta lock that down. Okay, great. In this scene, let's talk about the scene. And maybe and we'll talk about rehearsals in a little bit. But maybe in rehearsals, a lot of this was kind of worked out as well. In in that process. But my next question is, how does staging reveal subtext? Staging has a unique ability to do that?

Mark Travis 29:10
Yes, yeah. Yes, it does. I'm gonna go back to the thing I talked about before two people talking to one turns. One turns away from these two people talk and listen, I'll have him turn towards the camera. This one turns towards the camera. So let's say these are two men talking to each other and their brothers. We know that they're brothers and they're discussing what to do about that. And this one says, I think we should put them in a home. So at this point, we should have to put them in a retirement home. And this one just turns and says nothing. I just want to ask you, Alex, what does that mean?

Alex Ferrari 29:50
Oh, it can mean a bunch of different things.

Mark Travis 29:53
Now we're gonna subtext. Now we're into subtext.

Alex Ferrari 29:55
Yeah. Just something as simple as a turn a turn. Yeah.

Mark Travis 29:59
And that's subtext, I'm not, I'm not saying what it means what I'm what I'm doing is I'm creating an opportunity for you, the viewer to start to project in what you think it means, even though the person sitting next to you might think you'd be thinking something different doesn't matter, I want to trigger the subtext to open up that subtextual zone for the audience member to fill it in, which is an important part of storytelling or filmmaking, where we are triggering the audience to participate in the telling of the story, not just watch. And I think the most engaging films that any of us have ever seen are the ones that ended for you or for me, individually, where we have been able to participate a lot. It has triggered our motion has triggered our projections as we feel like we have participated somehow in the telling of that story.

Alex Ferrari 30:54
And yet without question, without question, and one other thing about the staging process, if an actor has quirks or something that is very specific to them, should you include those in the staging? How would you include those in the staging

Mark Travis 31:10
The quirks like what I mean. No, no, let me let me ask you more specifically, are you talking to the actor himself? has these quirks are the actor is? Or is the Okay, the other part of it? My question was, what is this quirks he's developed for the character? Both? Both?

Alex Ferrari 31:27
It could be both it could be something that he literally, or she literally as in as a part of them, or they developed the lamp, the shake, whatever, you know, the handshake, whatever it is that they've developed? How do you incorporate that in the staging is incorporated a station?

Mark Travis 31:46
Yeah, my first question would be you said a limp or soft or something like that. My first question would be for that character, let's say something that's creative, not something that the actor has. How is that helping? The story? How is that helping flesh out the character? Why is how is that affecting the character? How is important that to the character we're trying to render? That's really a conversation between you and the actor. So you Okay, you've got this limp. That's interesting. Here's what I think is going to you know, it's a you do have the final decision. But even you know, you have to have that conversation with the actor, what is your thinking here, it's not in the script. Could be an interesting idea. I don't want something in there, that's going to create a black hole for the audience. They go, I don't get it. What why the limp is not going to be brought up in the script. Because, you know, it's just something that's there. And if you can make it somehow elemental to the character, you can make it make it somehow that it becomes an interesting part of the character. That then it's fascinating. It's not like the usual suspects where Kevin Spacey has that you know, straight and that he shakes it off at the end. That's that's a whole

Alex Ferrari 33:04
Yeah, but you look at Dustin Hoffman in Rain, man. I mean, his whole movement is erratic, because that's his character. So he's, he's doing his thing he's walking. Yep, he's artistic. So that will affect staging like, how? So that's why that was kind of like the question.

Mark Travis 33:22
And then with somebody I mean, the Rain Man thing is a good example. Your question whether if you have this one character who has this erratic behavior, you as the director to think, Okay, how to deal with the other characters respond to this? Are they aware of this? Does it bother them? Is it you know, now in rain man who was a big thing between Tom Cruise and Dustin Hoffman, those two characters, as brothers, you know, because he's dealing with this autistic brother, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So it can't be just a quirk for the sake of isn't that an interesting quirk, because that won't be an interesting quirk if it becomes a significant part of it. Now, the other part of what you're asking is if the actor himself has this quirk and a lot of actors have quirks which we've seen over and over and over again. And the if it's a quirk that we're very accustomed to me for some reason, I'm thinking of Owen Wilson and facial expressions and, you know, things like that we've seen a million times he's a great person to imitate, I guess, you know, say, do I want that? Do I want that or with a skilled actor? Do I want to eliminate that? Do I want to have him shift into a character who does not have the quirks he has?

Alex Ferrari 34:45
Like I was thinking of someone like Daniel Day Lewis in There will be blood movements are so kind of through the wall kind of movements. He's very powerful. He's very imposing with his movements. You know, and when he walks in a room, she just walks very differently than he did in Lincoln. Let's say. It's extremely difficult, right? So as a director, you're looking at them like, okay, so he's bringing this energy. And if it's Daniel Day, obviously, this is a different conversation. You go, Mr. Lewis, how, how are you going to walk into scene? Let's figure this out how we work. But if but if you have an actor that is bringing that kind of energy to the scene, which is is part of the character, that was the kind of question like, how do we work it and there might be that erratic pneus around it and the Rain Man and Tom Cruise situation is they're both very opposite ones very erratic. And Tom Cruise generally is stoic, you know, controlled everything. The only thing that's knocks him off kilter is Raman Raman is the one who does not come off kilter and things like right, so it was just it was just an interesting, just curious to see how we approach it. I think we answered the question.

Mark Travis 35:59
Yeah, but let me go back to it. There will be blood in Daniel Day Lewis. And you're right. I mean, Daniel Day Lewis has a whole conversation by this by itself, but an actor who is taking on a behavior or physical behavior like that, because they feel like, first of all, that probably empowers them to get into the, you know, you don't want to just take it away. And I think for There will be blood that it was very appropriate for this character who basically was bulldozing his way through life and through everybody else, and didn't care. So it sort of represented that. But think about this as the director, you have to think about this character. Again, the same character, there will be blood. Is that the way he always moves? Or do we see a moment when it drops away? A private moment? Can we see? In other words, what can you do in relationship to this moment moment, see a moment where he is vulnerable, and he is alone. And he is private, that we can see what I call the window of true nature, that window of true nature of a character's Who is he really is this a facade that he has developed? Maybe over the years, in the end, he will always behave that way. But it'd be beautiful for a moment to see that when it falls away, when it doesn't serve him.

Alex Ferrari 37:19
The man the armor is off, the mask is off, and it's off.

Mark Travis 37:24
And then it becomes even more chilling, because we've seen something privately that Paul Daniel and all the other characters in that movie have never seen and we, the audience get to see that.

Alex Ferrari 37:36
Yeah, I mean, you look at some a character like Hannibal Lecter, and Sansa lambs. I mean, Jesus, we're talking about two different energies. I know he's, he shows the facade. But then his true nature comes out when he's literally eating a guard. Later on, but we see him as this beautifully, poised, elegant, speak, listen to your music. But the moment he has an opportunity, the true nature comes up. And that's what drives that's really the one of the most chilling parts about that, about that character is that he puts on one face, and we fall in love with a cannibal until you see him eat, act erratically as a violent person.

Mark Travis 38:24
It's interesting that in the course that I'm doing now the staging course last week, speaking of Anthony Hopkins, last week, we were looking at the father, I don't know if you've seen the Father.

I've heard of it. I haven't seen it. I highly recommend it

It's a man who's dealing with dementia. Yes, I'll give you a and his daughter is trying to bring in a caretaker to take care of him. So basically, so she can leave town. That's simple. And she has brought in a potential caretaker and he knows exactly what she's doing and doesn't want it. And he meets the caretaker. And he's excellent. And he's charming. And he's delightful, you know, and basically showing I don't need any help. He goes off for a moment to get his watch. Now he's alone. He's coming back. And there's one moment Alex, where he's coming back to talk to the caretaker and his daughter again, and he stops in the hallway. And he just stops. And all he does is stop. And you see oh my god. That's a moment. So what I call an empty moment, a moment that you could put project anything you want into it was Is it fear? Is it Indecision is no what is going on? And then a moment later, bam, he's back in the room and He's entertaining. Now that little moment is a moment of true nature. What's really going on with that character? And it's all done through staging. It's not in the dialogue. It's not, it's not probably in the script. I have the script. It doesn't say that he does that in the script. It says he can comes back with the watch. But there's that moment which he may, quite honestly, clearly at the Hopkins may have just done on his own comes back and he stops just thinking, thinking, and maybe he's thinking about how am I going to handle this problem? Maybe he's thinking I'm in trouble. Maybe Maybe he's got where he was a second maybe? Yes, exactly. All that all those maybes which we go, are I go? What's going on? Are you okay? Are you okay? Then he comes back in and he seems fine, but there's the cover the mask we were talking about, and there's the cover. So all done through staging, staging, is that powerful?

Alex Ferrari 40:43
Now, what is micro staging you said that earlier Can you talk a little bit about micro staging

Mark Travis 40:48
Yeah, well, you're doing it right now that was that was That was lovely.

Alex Ferrari 40:58
That was that was that Doc thing acting sir. That was acting. Anyone, you should watch the video guys to see my performance I just put on there with micro staging.

Mark Travis 41:08
Okay, this mic, these are my terms, micro staging and macro staging macro staging for a moment is walk over to the to the desk, sit down those those pretty much those big moves, you know, and even in an action adventure action thing, you know, this I mean, a fight sequences, all macro macro, macro. Micro staging can be this simple. Two people sitting at a table. This is why say you're doing it now. And one person is talking to the say it's a at a restaurant, a cafe, as a man and woman, woman is talking to the man about something doesn't matter what it is right now. And the man is I'll give you two scenarios to staging. So both of them micro, the man is just sitting there listening and nodding. Or the man is looking down at his fork and moving it. Now those two are totally different. Totally to add some micro, the tiniest little movement, or two, take it one step further. The man is listening to her right. And she's talking about people, we don't know who they are. And she she mentioned George. And on George, he looks down at the fork and picks it up. What does that say? That's microstate G. He has actually changed his behavior, that little shift there. Again, it opens it opens up that space that we go something about George, what is it about Jeff? She mentioned George, he shifted. If I just said to him as as an actor. You know, when she says George, just look down to the fork and pick it up and go, Okay. Easy to do. Very easy to do. Anybody can do it. You don't have to be a trained actor to do that. But that we see a shift in the character. And they can easily be something just in terms of eye movement. And a lot of very skilled actors. You watch them if you watch Anthony Hopkins, or you watch Meryl Streep or Daniel Day Lewis, or some of these people, Olivia Coleman, you watch them you can you watch for those little things that they're doing sometimes, maybe by plan, often, just by instinct, because there's so into the character, these tiny little, you want to make sure you capture that. And those are micro stages. Those are the micro staging. More than the macro stages are the ones that allow us in deep inside the character.

Alex Ferrari 43:36
That's it also reveals subtext when you do that. Absolutely, absolutely. So like the example of George with the fork. It's something simple, so simple, so small, but it says volumes. So if you're talking to me and I start yawning, that could either mean I'm just tired, or I'm bored, or I don't want to be here. And then you can insert what you want there. And it's just in the eye movements and things like that a look is worth 1000 words, and just God

Mark Travis 44:12
Give me another example, husband and wife in the kitchen. This isn't a real Sam just making it up husband and wife in the kitchen. He's sitting at the kitchen table, maybe some papers and stuff. Whatever he's doing there. That's his independent activity he's got and they're talking, he's talking about his work. And she's at the sink with her back to him washing dishes, very simple. And he's talking about work and she's washing the dishes and washing the dishes. And he mentions his boss and a client. And then he mentioned his secretary Cheryl, on the word Cheryl, she stops washing and he keeps talking. And maybe a moment later she starts washing again or she puts the plate down That's micro staging. That's some text. And he's not looking at her, she's not looking at him. But it's a little piece of behavior we expect. When someone's doing an activity like washing the dishes, they'll just keep washing the dishes until they're done. Those independent activities is such a powerful territory for staging, that you can make a slight adjustment in it. That is powerful. This one that I just explained, I was in teaching in Munich, I remember this and some actors were sitting at a table, were asking me about exactly what you're asking me about. So I had the two actors, doing some I gave one of them an independent activity, whatever she was doing, and the other one had to improvise a monologue. But she had to get the name like, I'll use Georgia George in it. And I asked the first one, I said, when do you hear the word, George? Now, these are two actors hear the word George's, you're going to stop that activity. Right? And hold and freeze until I release you. And I say, and I say action again. So they did. So this is totally improvised. So these two actors when I said the one said, George, and the other one stopped, I could see her the one who stopped started shaking, just shaking. And then I said, action. And she went back to and then two seconds later, she jumped out to see what Oh, my God, I said, what happened? She was I don't know. She says that was so powerful. In other words, that staging to her, she knew what she was going to do. But she had no idea how it was going to impact her. And the other one had a similar thing that she said, Georgia, she saw this react, so they emote, they the two actors responded emotionally to it. And that's how powerful it is.

Alex Ferrari 46:48
And if you can capture it on camera, then, yeah, you got money.

Mark Travis 46:52
Yeah, and the great thing, like what we're talking about independent activities, and some of those Microsoft, they can do it again and again and again and again, take up to take up to take exactly the same thing. And being skilled actors, they will allow the impact to happen every time just allow it. It could easily not have it happened. But you don't want to stop it from that you want it to happen. You want that, because that's part of what you're doing. That's part of the character and part of the moment. So it'll always work.

Alex Ferrari 47:22
So now let's say you're in rehearsals, and your staging and rehearsals, the actors are working worked out these micro stages worked at the macro stages. And we you know, we kind of had an idea of what the scenes going to be like, then we go on the day to location, and the location dropped out, we got this other new location that's completely different than what you've done. You've got five minutes, 10 minutes to restage this, what do you do?

Mark Travis 47:49
First of all, I'm in the initial rehearsal use stage at for one location. And but what you actually hopefully if it was staged, well, you did explore and you found the essence of the scene, and how the staging was helping you get to the essence of that scenes, and what's really going on between those characters. Now, the staging is helping you do that. That's what you have to rely on as the essence of what you achieved. Now, you now you look at the new location, and you say, okay, actors, we have to change the staging, but we're staying with what we achieved. Aha, the relationship between the two of you that sense of betrayal or the surprise of this moment, but we're gonna have to restage it very quickly, still going for what we had, but in a new location. So it's not do the same staging. Its render the the essence of the scene in a slightly different way, but still getting what the scene is really about what the, the arc of the scene is, what the transformation in the scene is, what the shift in the relationship is the cuecore moment of the scene, you're still getting all that you just have to do it a different way. And that's why I recommend to directors when you sit me down even before rehearsal, figure out how you want to stage the scene, the three different ways, three different ways in the same location, you have this location, it's the kitchen or whatever, three different ways. Doing it three, two, and a three dramatically different ways. I mean, and for instance, you can stage it in a way that okay, this is going to take a long time to shoot because there's a lot of movement, but boy, I like it good. Staging, again, when there's no movement, very little movement, where you're relying on micro staging more than macro staging. So if you get there and you only got two hours to shoot the scene, okay, I'm going to shift, I have to shift to something that's simpler. Or, as you've mentioned before, the actor comes up with an idea if you have three different ways of doing it. They're going to come within one of those, you have all these options you can go to and if you've done it in three different ways, they all seem like they kind of work for you You have been hitting on the essence of the scene, what's really going on the scene. The staging is not the scene, the staging reveals the scene. So, so if you've done three with different ways it can be revealed. And you may get on the set and do the one you like the most and go, Gee, I don't know, Wait, man, I got another idea, you may just shift because you're going I know, this is not working, as well as I thought it was going to. Hopefully, because of my background in theatre, I'm really advocating this, hopefully, you've had rehearsal time with the actors. And I don't mean rehearsal on the set, because that's really not rehearsal time. That's just that's you eating up production time, is very expensive rehearsal time, you're very, you should not be rehearsing on the set, you should be reviewing what you did or clarifying what you're going to do. And that's it not exploring, oh, how am I gonna stage this scene? I need to do do that earlier.

Alex Ferrari 50:57
No. And the thing that I love about this technique is that you you basically are able to adjust on the fly to whatever scenario comes from because you have multiple angles multiple ways to cover the motorways to stage the scene, right, but they all reveal the essence of the scene in different ways. And if you can get the essence, then you could put it in a box, or you could put it in a very complicated location is still going to reveal the same thing. There might be the chess pieces will be moved a little bit. But the essence

Mark Travis 51:32
Exactly, yes, that that's you. That's what you have to capture the essence of the scene.

Alex Ferrari 51:38
Now you've talked about in the past inner dialogue? Can you talk a bit about inner dialogue? And how does that work? Or help non verbal scenes and scenes? That is literally just two people looking at each other or very Hitchcockian in that way. So what is inner dialogue? And how can that be used?

Mark Travis 51:56
Well, inner inner dialogue is first of all, it is very important, because it is exactly what it sounds like. It's inner. And it is a dialogue. It's not, we don't usually just have thoughts, we usually have a dialogue. You know, I think I'll do it. No, that's not a good idea. That's a dialogue, you got two voices going on. Or you're looking at another character and another person you go, I wonder what he's what he's what he's gonna do. No, I don't think he's gonna do that. That's actually you're having a dialogue with yourself. So it is a dialogue. It's not just thoughts. These inner dialogues are crucial, because, number one, we as human beings have them all the time, we're doing it every every day, even, you know, moments before I met with you for this podcast, I'm going through my MO, I'm here alone at the moment. And I'm, I'm having a dialogue. It's preparation is I mean, it's what we do this all the time. So if we do this all the time, we have to assume I have to assume characters, all our characters are doing this. The thing is, it's not written in the script, what they're thinking, if you want if the writer wanted to write that they'd write a novel, this is not a novel, this is a screenplay, all we have is the spoken dialogue. The other aspect of this, which we talked about, I think last time in 2017, is, in our minds, all of us, we have what I call the committee, which is all the voices, the voices that talk to us, we talk to them, we work things out, they tell us what to do. Some of these voices represent people we know mom and dad and neighbors or whatever. So this is committee going on. And in our mind of discussing things. That committee is really crucial. And now we're getting back to the interrogation process, which we won't go into. But think about it that every character has a committee, every character is rich in thoughts process going on all the time. So if you have that scene that you're talking about, where it's just two people sitting there, let's say it's in a bus station, and the two people are sitting there across from each other, and they're both strangers, I will say, but they're going to meet eventually, but they're just staring at each other. And that's that's the scene, they're just looking at each other. Well, there's got to be a world going on. Inside each other. There's going to be a major dialogue, major conversation inside each of them. And two things. What I do with working with actors, is many times and in fact, I did a film where you can see this how this works. Many times I will have them before the scene just before before we're shooting, verbalize what's going on out loud. Two of them at the same time. They're not really talking to each other, but the two of them just verbalize verbalize, verbalize verbally. They're saying what they're saying. And then they're just waiting to hear Action. Action and what happens on action is the verbalizing stops. But the thoughts keep going. In other words, I actually activate improvise and activate the inner dialogue. So it isn't like, oh, what should I be thinking about? I'm having them say it. And it's very powerful, they are saying it to the other person, because the other person is in the room. But they're not saying it. That's not a dialogue between the other person. So they're exposing it. And the powerful thing about this way of working is those two guys sitting across from each other in the bus stop. They hear what the other person is thinking, now they have a cent now there. And people say, Oh, they shouldn't be hearing what they're thinking is Oh, yeah, they should, because what they're hearing is what they're thinking that the other person is thinking. I mean, I've got to connect these two people somehow. So that inner dialogue is a very, very powerful, very, very powerful tool.

Alex Ferrari 55:45
And it's really interesting, too, sometimes you can give two actors two different motivations, without telling each other what that motivation is, which can be opposed to each other's, you know, going out the scene. And that makes the best scenes ever, because one actor is like, you know, I use the direction once he's like, I need you to when you're yelling at this person, pretend you're trying to communicate to somebody in the other room. And it's in that kind of gives you a level of where I want the volume to be without you going nuts, things like that these little little techniques that you can use along the way. Really help now, how can you create tension with staging?

Mark Travis 56:27
That almost does it all the time. One thing to think about. It's a good question. Staging, this is something I discovered years ago, it suddenly occurred to me, when I was teaching, I would talk about obstacles, character obstacles, and I would say, okay, there are obstacles that come in three categories, other people are obstacles, okay. The environment can be an obstacle, you know, either the physical environment or the social environment, attitudes of whatever, so the society. And the third area is obstacles within yourself, you know, internal obstacles. So those are the categories of obstacles. And as I was teaching, I realized those three categories are the same categories as staging your staging people in relationship to each other, staging people in relationship to the environment and in relationship to themselves, whether it's the body language, or how they want to be seen, or how they are seeing. So. So that's, there's a very strong link between staging and obstacles. And I realized that what I'm doing with staging is I am creating obstacles constantly, constantly, if an actor sits down, so I'm gonna sit in this chair, and I say, okay, sit there, do me a favor, slide forward on the chair, they'll slide but not a little bit further, a little bit. He says, I'm right near the edge, I said, good. I just created an obstacle. He says, This feels uncomfortable, I say, good. And he realizes I have created now this is just an body language. You know, he's, first of all, it looks great, because it looks like he is uncomfortable. I don't know why the character is sitting that way. But he is not comfortable within himself. And this has created an obstacle within the character. And it will actually trigger something in the other character when he sees him sitting there, because the other actor as as the character will also read that behavior, right. And now we're creating now I'm creating tension, I'm creating tension within the body, I can create tension between two listed this has to do with the turning faces or something like that, between two characters, what happens if I have this character move away from him? Now I'm going to create while he's in the middle of that speech, that you know, this one is playing this big speech, and this one starts to move I go, that's that's going to create tension. Or in the environment. Let's say we're in the office of the boss or something like that. And the young woman applying for the job walks behind the boss's desk. While there's a problem. You know, it's not where she's supposed to. We know that when we see the room, we know what the territory is, we know it's his space. And maybe he's gone off to the side of buying a piece of paper or something. And she walked behind. Now I've created tension and not only creating tension between the characters, and creating tension with the audience, the audience, oh, that's dangerous, what's going to happen and I want that the audience to feel that and it has nothing to do with the dialogue. Hopefully, it's all supporting the dialogue supporting the essence of the scene, but through the staging, I'm creating emotional responses in the actors, the characters and the audience. By creating tension and then relieving it when I want to. So you go Ah, okay, now what now we're fine.

Alex Ferrari 59:51
Which by the way, is an art because there are movies that soaps, some some of these more testosterone ridden movie is sometimes don't let go of the tension. They just hold you and hold you. Where becomes very unpleasant for the, for the, for the audience I've had that experience handful of times in watching a movie that the director just wanted to keep it cranking and cranky. Like, no, you got to release the valve. You've got to release the valve a little a little bit. Even it's released the valve.

Mark Travis 1:00:24
Oh, yeah, absolutely. He was a matt he was he was a master of it.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:29
Which speaking of Hitchcock, how do you then create fear with staging you know, intimidation, power, that kind of thing. Kind of like I'm the first scene that comes into my head is the Godfather, where he's in that room, stroking a cat with amazing, which, after watching the offer, which I tell everybody, they should watch the offer, that maybe the TV series about the making up the Godfather, cat. That wasn't masterful direction. He was just a cat that happened to be a series.

Mark Travis 1:01:03
There was a stray cat on the set. That's what I heard that Coppola picked it up and gave it to Brando.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:11
In the show. Brandon's picked it up.

Mark Travis 1:01:13
So he doesn't Yeah, it doesn't matter. But it was like this. And it was a great cat. It was a great cat,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:20
Just chilled and relaxed. He wasn't like, Well, yeah. Because you know, you don't want to include animals into a scenario where you don't have to. But that scene is indicative of power. And there's also lighting and presence. But how can you analyze that scene a little bit in the blocking of it as an example? Or pick another scene if you'd like?

Mark Travis 1:01:39
Yeah, no, no, that's a good scene. But your question was on fear,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:43
Will fear power and intimidation? I mean, he has all of those in that scene.

Mark Travis 1:01:47
Right? Right. And how do you create it?

Alex Ferrari 1:01:52
With stagging

Mark Travis 1:01:54
Well, one thing is, which is part of a staging that is created there is in the silences. You have you have the man across it, you know, my daughter, she was she was raped, I think and I need you know, I need justice. I need justice. And then there's a long silence. And we go Oh, shit. You know, in other words, by with silences, and then the cat helped with that too, because it's a gentleness against something. And, and also in the editing of that scene. It's a long time before we see Brando. We see his hand, we see him from the back. So long, you know, we withhold that for a long time. But this this, the silence is really moment. The even in that scene, he says, you know, you come to me for this help. But when's the last time you showed me respect? Now that's just great writing. Oh, you know, I say this, this is not going to go well. And I think there's something beautiful about that scene. Because at the end of the scene, he says he does say, I will help you, and you owe me because someday I will come someday I will come to you. Maybe never but someday I might. Actually he does in the story. But he's he. But the fear is going to work in the scene as much as you can away from that ending go in the opposite direction. So even in the staging, when Brando finally gets up, and he walks around his desk towards the guy. Now what's going to happen? There's also in the staging of that scene, but because I think Robert Duvall and James Caan are in that scene. And there's early on in the scene, that scene, I think, is a shot. It's a great shot or a divan. Devall is in the foreground, I think it's divots in the foreground, and we can see Brando, the godfather in the background. I think it might be at the moment. I may be wrong about this, but it might be the moment that I think it is that Brando is getting up. Right. He releases the cat and he starts to get up. Well, James Caan and Robert Duvall respond immediately they start to rise, and you go, Whoa, there's power. You know, they rise because they don't know what he's gonna do. But it's like, the boss is Wolverine ready? I I'm ready, and and where they're moving around, they're not going anyplace specific, but they're sort of positioning themselves to be ready. So it creates a tension in the whole room, which the guy asking for the favor. It's got to feel like everybody's moving. Is this good? Or is this bad? And that's what you want to create that fear and create that tension.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:53
And that staging is so powerful because you're absolutely right. Nobody knows who the Godfather is. This is the Now we all do because it's a legendary film. But when that in 72, when people were watching it, nobody knew really what this meant. So just that that staging of he stands, the other two stands, it says volumes about the power that this man wields. In addition to everything else that's going on the scene with the, with the cat, and the lighting and the performance in the dialogue. It all works. But that staging just adds this this gravitas to this man, even more so than he already had nothing mentioned. It's Brando, they already brought us

Mark Travis 1:05:35
Yeah. And also Alex, you're bringing up a great point. And I'm going to refer to Butch Cassidy, who's in a similar way, that that scene with brand, you know, we got the Godfather, we got Brando playing the guy I'm going back to before it's released. And there were a lot of people didn't want Brando, but forget about that. But you you are the director telling the story. And you're going to introduce this main character. And your what do you want? What do you need to establish besides the story, your main thing is you need to establish this guy that we know by the end of the scene, we know who he is. This is your introduction to the audience of who this guy is. And it's actually beautifully done, because it's, in a way in terms of the whole story. It's a relatively insignificant scene. But it's very significant in terms of the introduction, so you've got to pull that off. The reason I said which Cassidy, William Goldman, when they were about to the writer, not the director, William Goldman, when they were tested it and they had Paul Newman, who is that time as a major star. And they were talking about Robert Redford, which is basically unknown news.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:51
Basically, it was coming up. He was, it was coming up,

Mark Travis 1:06:53
But but he wasn't at the level of Newman, neither one. And a lot of people said, No, you gotta get someone who's at the level of Newman. So William Goldman knew he had to write a scene, which he did, where he can establish Sundance Kid, or Robert Redford at the same level, and Rob respect as Newman and one scene at the beginning of the film. So from then on, they are equal. And that's the scene where Sundance Kid is playing cards, and he has accused someone else of cheating, or someone accused him of cheese. And Newman comes in and says, Come on, we gotta go. We gotta go. He says, No, he has to apologize. First. What he has to apologize why he accused me of cheating. He has to apologize. Come on, we gotta go. We gotta go. And then in that scene, the way it's written, Newman says, Butch Cassidy says, Sundance Come on, and suddenly the room changes. People. Sundance, your Sundance. Because yeah, he's got to apologize. No, I'm not going to apologize. I caught up on Sundays, and someone says, Whom? Are you really that good with? Which means with a gun? Are you really that good? In other words, the now we're hearing about the legends about this. And this is a famous scene, and maybe by this time, Sundance is standing up. And they I don't know, someone says, Can you shoot that would have that bottle over there. Right. And he's just standing it says, just stay there. And he shoots and he misses. Right? And they go, okay, he's not that good. Then Sundance says a key lysis. Can I move? Make a what? Can I move? Oh, yeah. So we start to move it. He's actually starts moving a lot and shooting, and that bottle goes first. And then he says, I'm better when I'm moving. Did you go hold? That whole scene was so the wit. So we go, Who the hell is this guy's amazing. Bring him up to the level of Paul Newman. So when they walk out of that scene, they're at the same level. So it's the same thing is with the godfather. How can we create a scene and create a moment to bring that recognition of a character to a certain level before we launch into the full movie,

Alex Ferrari 1:09:15
And as you were saying that the character that came into my head was Val Kilmer is Doc Holliday and tombstone similar in a similar way, if you don't know who Doc Holliday is everyone's when you hear the rumblings from others. How fast Yes, and he's a he's a lung nerd. And he's got a fairly something called they call them a lung and I'm not sure if that's appropriate or not, but he has that was that they called him in the movie and, and how he drinks all day and even with all that stuff, he still better than anybody else in there. Yeah, that's pretty remarkable. And the other character, which I haven't seen in recent years, anyone do this. John Wick, my God. I mean, The way they set that character up is so beautiful because for the first part of the movie, you don't know what John Wick is capable of doing right at all at all. And then only by the other characters, looks, micro stagings, all these kinds of things. Like when when he opens up the door this is after he already showed a little bit of what he could do. When the cop opens the door. He's like, we heard a couple shots. You're working again, John. It's just so brilliant. But then like the biggest, baddest, you know, criminals. Just hearing his voice is like, hearing the Boogeyman. You know, like it's over, you're done. Now, the boogeyman is coming to get you. Death is coming. It's so fascinating. And it's such a brilliant look at they're holding it off to like, Episode 1/4. The fourth one's coming out. And I think they can sign for four and five. If they're brilliant films. But that's that's a really beautiful case of how the outside characters and environments really set up the the main character.

Mark Travis 1:11:05
Yeah, this another similar situation, which I love to share with you, which has to do with as good as it gets. Oh, Jack Nichols. Yes, Jack Nicholson. And that horrible character, he has to play the horrible human being which almost everybody in the film calls him a horrible human being. But I have two friends of mine. We're working on John Bailey, the cinematographer. And Richard marks the editor. And what I heard is that they had finished the film and they had the first cut or whatever, and they did previews. And everybody hated the film for two main reasons. One, one reason they didn't understand what was wrong with this guy why he was they didn't understand his illness

Alex Ferrari 1:11:46
Didn't show like, they didn't explain it.

Mark Travis 1:11:50
I'll tell you what they did. Okay, they didn't understand his illness. Let's put it that way. Is OCD at all. And the whole idea of any him falling in love or anybody falling in love with him? Forget it, forget it. So the whole it was a disaster. So they went out and shot two more scenes. The one scene in terms of what you're talking about the OCD, the scene of him washing his hands with the Neutrogena soap and throwing the soap things away. And remember, he walks down the hall goes in there and that was not originally they had to show him the OCD, right a big Guinea so you go, okay, he's got a problem. He's got a problem. So they've shot that scene. And the reason it's shot the way it was shot, which John the cinematographer, explained to me says we only had that wall. That's the only wall we know because you're going back to do a reshoot. You don't want to put the whole apartment back together again. The other thing that they shot in terms of him falling in love, which was not in the original was him walking the dog and the dog jumping over the cracks. Okay, the dog jumping over the cracks, which actually became the poster the scene, and then him lifting up the dogs. He still has the little plastic gloves and holding the dog and going oh, yeah, now, but a key thing about that scene was a shot to two women who are out in the park wherever he is seeing him and going, Oh, isn't that sweet? That tells the audience what to think about Jack Nicholson he is capable of being soft and loving and caring. It's told through and told through to other characters that we don't even know who they are.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:39
It will steal the old trope if you want to show a villain have them kick the dog, if you want them to be if you want them to be loved to have them be next to an animal or man next to a dog. It's as simple as that it says everything you need to know about the character. And what I think I loved about that is that he did not like the dog. And it took a minute for him to figure out that he really did love him to the point where he when the dog had to go. He was like, I could come by and see him right. Like, completely dreadful. Gotcha. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. Oh my god.

Mark Travis 1:14:13
I love the moment when he's trying to get Greg. He trying to get the dog and Greg Kinnear to reconnect the dog and he's pointed the dog don't talk to him. Go look at him and don't come to me.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:28
That's the big, he likes to bake. You'd like some bacon. It's not me. Right? It's such a tour de force. I mean, James L. Brooks is an absolute master. I mean, but look at that. And for people listening someone like James L Brooks didn't see that. He shot the whole movie. It happens all the time. And then they didn't like it. So like you had to add a couple things to make him likable.

Mark Travis 1:14:55
And I think you know it's it's a great post production story and there are many like that. So as you know, many like, but the first thing is recognizing, okay, it's not working, what's missing? What's missing? What's missing? And how can we get it in? How can how can we what can we what can we do to take care of the element that's missing or the clarify the element? That's confusing? Because that's part that's part of your job. As a director, you're going to have to do that. This is why Woody Allen now I don't know if he still does this. But years ago, because I had several friends of mine who were in Woody Allen films. First of all, he doesn't rehearse. And he doesn't think he's a good director of actors at all. He says, I don't I don't know how to work with actors, but I do know how to cast but that he his budget, I think 25% of his budget was saved. For reshoots. He would shoot the whole movie, go into post production, put it together. And then he's got this chunk of money for reshoots. Now, that was his process. That's an expensive process. But that's what worked at once he could see the movie and see how was working, which is actually a luxury to go back. So I'm gonna have to reshoot some stuff to make it work. That's a way to do it.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:12
And I mean, he the reason why people always asked you know about Woody and you know, his, I mean, he did a movie a year for 40 years. 30 years. I'm like, No, it's it's it's on her record, but he keeps his budget so low, that he has complete freedom, and then cast the biggest movie stars in the world who come to work for him for scale. It's good work if you could get it, sir.

Mark Travis 1:16:38
Should we all be so lucky?

Alex Ferrari 1:16:42
He's Kubrick, bow Kubrick Kelly did movie every five, seven years, he didn't want every single. Now, Mark, I'm gonna ask you a few questions. Ask all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Mark Travis 1:16:59
Well, there were two things. One is because your question is trying to break into the business. That's a fact I would say talk to Alex, my friend.

Alex Ferrari 1:17:10
Because a few podcasts that cover that topic.

Mark Travis 1:17:13
As a few I'm sure there are. I mean, the whole thing of breaking into the business, getting into this world of filmmaking, getting into the system, the industry, the machine, whether it's at a studio level, or low budget, no budget level. It all has its challenges financially, artistically and all that it's huge. And I would say you know, keep your expectations low. Make a film that you know, you can make. In other words, don't, don't, don't push yourself. Make that film make that short film about two people in a restaurant or whatever it is. And it's a short make something that you know, you can control that can show what you're capable of doing what you are capable, that you are capable of working with these actors. You're capable of getting these performances if you wrote it that you are you are you you know how to write a screenplay. When I say keep your expectations low, which means keep your budget low, so that you're not pushing yourself to try to achieve something that is not within your budget. It's not within your timeframe. It's not within your skill set. It's in your imagination. I got that keep it simple. Keep it some some of the best films I've seen. Are I've seen some great I'm sure you I know you have a five or eight minutes long. And there are a downing power fifth. There's a short film I don't know if you've seen it. Alex called the nail nursing a couple sitting in the living room in the whole scene. They don't move they just sit he she's on the couch. She's on the chair near the couch. And she's we hear her talking about you know, she's she's suffering from these pains, like headache payments and all of that. And we see her from the back we see him he's not in on and suddenly she turns her head and we see a nail protruding out of her forehead. Okay, a nail. No blood just now. And he goes I think it must have something to do with the neck. No, no, it's not the nail. It's not the myth that's and I go and there's a hole in it but it gets into what this story is really dealing with is men and women and how they deal with problems that she keeps denying what he thinks he sees and he keeps trying to help it's really about male female relationships. But it's all about the nail

Alex Ferrari 1:19:41
It's not the nail but the nails in your head. It's not the nail it's not it's not the nail

Mark Travis 1:19:45
Forget the nail you keep bringing up the nail I'd stop and I got an it's a I'm sure you can find it on YouTube. It's a brilliant now, whoever made this. It's a brilliant short movie. There's another one which I can't remember name of which I love, which is outdoors and a guy seems to fall out of the sky, he just falls and then all this sound equipment falls down near him, which he picks up and he starts off towards a park. And we go over to the park and we see in the park that people are there and an accident happens and someone gets badly hurt really badly hurt. And this guy sees it he just blows he goes over sets up all his sound equipment sets up with a with a knob with with a on a turntable,

Alex Ferrari 1:20:39
The DJ on the DJ, or that kind of sound equipment do

Mark Travis 1:20:43
DJ equipment is it sets that all up? Yeah, starts playing, you know, starts playing it. And then he starts playing it backwards. And as he plays it backwards. The scene we saw reverses itself and he runs it backwards to before the accident. And then he makes a couple of adjustments and then he lets it run forward again and the scene changes. And then there's another accident he goes up and runs it backwards. Now what he does, and finally he gets it so it everything is fine. Nobody's got hurt. He's He's changed the course of events, packs up all his stuff. Then he sees a little girl down there holding her doll which got mashed during the last thing. And he goes, Oh God, it puts the stuff back together again, and cleans it up. So her doll was not damaged. There's no dialogue in the whole thing. It's brilliant. Brilliant. It's brilliant. No, there's someone's showing here's what I can do.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:41
It's brilliant. So brilliant. Brilliant.

Mark Travis 1:21:42
So I you know my videos, you know follow your passion. Now you're just your passion is filmmaking. Follow your passion of what you want to talk about what you want to explore. Like the nail I want to explore the male female relationship in a unique way. Do it. Keep it simple. Keep it simple.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:59
Now, what are three of your favorite films of all time?

Mark Travis 1:22:02
What's that three favorite film

Alex Ferrari 1:22:03
Favorite films of all time right now.

Mark Travis 1:22:06
A lot a lot of you know, I'm probably like you a lot of it depends on what I've seen recently. You know? I mean, the father, which I mentioned to you is a stunning film. And he got nominated for one no, you want one? Yeah, he won. He won. He went for the performance. But aside from that, it's a man suffering dementia but the film is made in such a way that I defy you Alex or anybody else to be able to figure out what is actually going on during the film. And but it's made so that as Besides watching a man suffering with his world changing and shifting and being and being illogical and and confusing the film this is very dangerous as also to the audience illogical and at times confusing, so that we the audience of feeling with our relationship with the film is his relationship with the world brilliantly done talking about the power and it's everything and it is so simple, the editing the you know, the performances the staging is all very sort of solid and simple. But it's to the point that the set keeps changing because it kept the set keeps changing what you won't notice probably won't even notice the first time but it's changed because to Anthony Hopkins character it's the world is shifting. So it's a brilliant film using cinematic storytelling in a whole different way. The Godfather, of course,

Alex Ferrari 1:23:43
That is one or two you could put one or two in there together that's fine. Because everyone always goes one or two like put one or two to get one movie so you'd have another one or both excellent.

Mark Travis 1:23:55
Yeah, they both exit this Shawshank Redemption that Shakespeare in Love that he talks to you we could go through genres and things get out get out which is a stunning it's just you know

Alex Ferrari 1:24:06
So many yeah,

Mark Travis 1:24:07
There's so many go on and on and on and on and on.

Alex Ferrari 1:24:09
Well my mind number one is Shawshank and everybody here listening on the show knows that I talk about Shawshank ad nauseam on this on this show over the years and I've talked to story experts I'm like let's break down Shawshank why is this there and what's the the deeper levels of and why is this? Why is it popular? Why was it the worst title ever for a movie? So that's right now where can people find out more about you and the work you're doing?

Mark Travis 1:24:39
Okay, the easiest way to get in touch with me which is very simple. My name is Mark W Travis but w middle initial. Don't forget that [email protected]. That's it. You write to me I'm talking to you all you're listening. You can write to me to Alex but you have already done that. That's that's how you can get in touch. with me, and I invite your listeners to get any of them to get in touch with me Do me a couple of favors. First, you get in touch with me write me an email, mentioned this podcast mentioned, so that I know and I can let Alex know, whatever, it's nice to know where you came from, or how you got here. If you get in touch with me, I have some gifts for you, I have a couple of videos that I will be happy to share with you. One is called Three mistakes directors make when working with actors. And the other one is called The Power of Staging. So the power of stages is a longer video of talking about and showing you exactly what we're talking about today. The other one is working with actors three mistakes, I can share that with you. And for release, this is a dangerous thing, but I'm going to do it for really serious if, if you're really serious about a directing career really serious. And Alex, you know what I mean, about serious versus whatever, I want to be famous. I want to be famous, really, if you're really serious, and you can convince me, then I'm going to offer your free half hour consultation with me where I share with you all the things I do, how I can help you how I can support you. And wherever you are in your career, wherever you want to go. Whether you're just beginning or whether you're working professionally and you're running into challenges with working with actors or working with scripts or something. Just write to me simple. write me an email,

Alex Ferrari 1:26:33
And you do have a website, don't you sir?

Mark Travis 1:26:34
I do have a website. My company is called Travis International Film Institute. The acronym is TIFITravis International Film Institute. The website is so easy to tifi.us.not com. .us. You go there, then the website. And you can see on there there's a film on there that you can watch, which I'm going to send you tonight. I don't know if I sent you the latest and insanity called rehearsal scene 22 Where I documentary you shall see how I work with actors using the interrogation process, which is what we talked about last time as it's all been documented. But that's on the website. You can see that

Alex Ferrari 1:27:23
Mark, it has been a pleasure talking to you sir, let's let's not wait five years to the next time, sir. Your wealth, your wealth of information and hopefully this conversation has helped a few people with staging and some other other things in their career. So I appreciate you, sir. Thank you again.

Mark Travis 1:27:41
Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. It's good to see you.

IFH 613: Directing Bruce Willis’ Last Film with Matt Eskandari

Matt Eskandari immigrated to the United States as a child with his family, following the Iranian revolution. He is an alumnus of the University of Southern California, and would direct several award-winning shorts; including “The Taking” (Screamfest Award for Best Student Short). The film propelled him to nationwide exposure when he was chosen by Steven Spielberg and Mark Burnett; from a pool of 12,000 candidates, to participate in the Fox filmmaker competition ‘On the Lot.’

Matt would go on to make his feature directorial debut with the psychological thriller “Victim.” The controversial work was distributed by Ifc Films for theatrical release and hailed by Ain’t it Cool News as, “a thinking man’s Saw” and “both original and disturbing.” Eskandari’s next feature, “The Gauntlet,” starring international stars Bai Ling and Dustin Nguyen was produced and shot entirely in China. It was one of the first China/US co-productions recognized by the Beijing Film Bureau and after a successful worldwide festival run was distributed as “Game of Assassins” by Lionsgate Studios

Matt’s third feature, the self-contained swimming pool thriller “12 Feet Deep,” starring Tobin Bell and Alexandra Park was praised by critics as, “a tensely directed hidden gem that will leave you struggling to breathe,” and has gone on to become the single top selling title for MarVista – having amassed a record 40 million trailer views in its first months release.

Inspired by true events, sisters Bree and Jonna get trapped beneath the fiberglass cover of an Olympic sized public pool after it closes for the holiday weekend. They find themselves at the mercy of the night janitor, Clara, who sees the trapped sisters as an opportunity to solve a few problems of her own.

Coming from a unique cultural perspective and honing his directorial craft in genre films, Eskandari is ready to use his distinct voice to embark into a further exploration of human nature and delve into the relevant fears and themes of our modern day world.

His latest film is “Wire Room” and has been said that this will be Bruce Willis’ last film before his retirement.

Action legend Bruce Willis comes out with guns blazing as Shane Mueller, a Homeland Security agent who runs the Wire Room, a high-tech command center surveilling the most dangerous criminals. New recruit Justin Rosa (Kevin Dillon, “Entourage”) must monitor arms-smuggling cartel member Eddie Flynn — and keep him alive at all costs. When a SWAT team descends on Flynn’s home, Rosa breaks protocol and contacts the gangster directly to save his life. As gunmen break into the Wire Room and chaos erupts, Mueller and Rosa make a final, desperate stand against the corrupt agents and officials who seek to destroy evidence and kill them both.

Enjoy my conversation with Matt Eskandari.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Matt Eskandari 0:00
One thing that I would tell him is, success is not a straight path. There's going to be ups and downs. It's going to be a journey. Enjoy the journey. Enjoy every step that you're on. Enjoy every film that you're making that show every little actor and collaboration and moment that you're working on.

Alex Ferrari 0:19
This episode is brought to you by the Best Selling Book, Rise of the Filmtrepreneur. How to turn your independent film into a money making business. Learn more at filmbizbook.com. I'd like to welcome the show Matt Eskandari. How you doing, Matt?

Matt Eskandari 0:33
It's a pleasure, man. Thanks for having me on. I'm a big fan of yours. And indeed, Fonasa. So look forward chatting.

Alex Ferrari 0:38
I appreciate that, man. Thank you so much, brother. It's really interesting. When I was doing my research on you, you and I have a have a connection, sir. Oh, really? We do an early old

Matt Eskandari 0:49
Date a girl ex girlfriend or something?

Alex Ferrari 0:52
Nothing. Nothing that scandalous, sir. But you and I had a we're involved with a little show called on the lot.

Matt Eskandari 1:00
Oh, you're on that.

Alex Ferrari 1:02
I wasn't on it. But I was almost on it. I went to the last edge. And apparently I wasn't scandalous enough to get on the show.

Matt Eskandari 1:15
You didn't sleep your way in like I didn't.

Alex Ferrari 1:16
I mean, I just need my way in. But I saw that up. I'm like, Oh, he was in the first two episodes. Oh, man. That's, that's crazy. That's awesome. So I want to talk to you about your experience on on the lot and a little bit because I've never spoken to anybody else. A really valid that's been on it. I've talked to I was almost on Project Greenlight. So it's actually in the first episode of season two of Project Greenlight, but I didn't make it on the full show. And same thing happened with on the on the on the lot. I flew out they did the interview. It was I mean, I was I was this close, that's fine. So and you're one of the few people who I know who are working.

Matt Eskandari 1:54
Right, exactly what happened together one of the thing I didn't get to deal with Spielberg or something like,

Alex Ferrari 2:01
Dude, that's the thing that all those shows most of the directors, not all, but most of the directors became upset, just they fell into obscurity. And I feel like there was a backlash against those directors in the business. And and before we just have to ask that question. What was your vibe after you were on that show? Since you didn't go too far. And you went to a couple, a couple

Matt Eskandari 2:21
other shows on a few episodes, and it's gonna make it too far. But, you know, I had to stay there the whole time while they were doing it, but because they didn't want us to reveal what was happening. But I was really young. This was like, right out of film school. So I was 24 I was really young. And, you know, didn't supergreen I'd never directed a feature before I just had short phones on under my, under my belt. And it was an interesting experience. It was definitely, you know, it being there. I realized it was kind of disheartening the first few weeks because you realize they weren't actually looking for the best filmmaker, they were looking for the most drama or whatever. And I was like, like, why are you guys wasting everybody's time here to make it like, I get you want to make an entertaining show. But you know, this should all just like, this should be like American Idol. You're trying to find the best singer, the best director, the best filmmaker, like why are we why are we here? If it's just if it's just to create, like, interesting drama or backstories of characters, and somebody was just kind of disheartening. But, you know, I did meet some people on that, that didn't make it to win either. And I stayed in touch with some of them, like I had them as Facebook friends for a while. And it was, for me, the the positive that I was able to take away from it was it was sort of a stamp of approval for myself from my own sort of ego at the time to be like, Okay, I'm, I'm not completely incompetent, if I've been able to make it on this thing. And, you know, I might know, a thing or two about making films if I made it this far. So maybe I should keep going and not give up on the dream. You know what I mean? So I think that was a huge positive for me to come out of it knowing that okay, this was like a nice kick in the butt. Let me keep going and see how far I can get.

Alex Ferrari 4:04
That's awesome. Because I mean, it was I thought I was I was so devastated when I didn't make it like I flew myself out to Atlanta to take a pic the interview. It was all Dude, it was. And then afterwards after I watched the show, I'm like,

Matt Eskandari 4:19
oh, dodged the bullet. Yeah, that's that's fine. Filmmakers on there, too, like Michael Bay, and

Alex Ferrari 4:29
Oh, no. Yeah. I mean, it was serious. They had some serious but there's the guy who made survivor so you could I mean, what are you going to expect? And by the way, the only reason I submitted it was because Spielberg was on it. He was the one that could be the only reason I haven't submitted to it. But funny side note, Hi, Chris. More on the show. Years later, like I had him earlier this year. first words out of my mouth. Roger Greenlight, man, why don't I get into second season, bro? Like so the first question I ask. And he's like, Man, I don't know what happened. But

Matt Eskandari 5:03
Back in the day, it was the first season or something. I mean, I didn't get that.

Alex Ferrari 5:08
It brought me perhaps a green light though that was that was entertaining as hell. And you could after the first season, you was like, come on. Why? Why did they get this guy million dollars? I mean, the shooting sound underneath a train, like?

Matt Eskandari 5:23
Like, at least that was a real filmmaking show.

Alex Ferrari 5:26
I guess it was something. Yeah. Is that is that American Idol? At least it was a real show. Right? But anyway, but I just wanted to touch on that, because it's brothers in arms. Reality Show brother in arms. So so after that experience, man, how did you kind of get into the business? How did you start? Start building your career?

Matt Eskandari 5:47
You know, looking back, it was definitely it was a process, right? I mean, after after not making very far on that show. I just continued on the path that I was doing, which was writing scripts, shooting shorts, trying to build connections, getting my name out there as much as possible. And this was it was this is a different time, obviously. So there was a, you know, the industry was different that filmed it independent filmmaking scene was a little bit different back then. But the 2000 10s are around then. But basically, I was able to get financing for a feature film. It was like a horror film called victim. And we shot it in 20 days was independent was shot on 35 millimeter, which is crazy to think of now, a double be shot on 35 millimeter, we only raised like, 700 grand, but we certainly raised 700 grand, this was back when there was a DVD market. So you know, you could guarantee that they would make their money back if it was a genre movie, and this and that. So so, you know, I made that movie. It opened a couple doors. But you know, it was able to do get another independent film off the ground, this film called The Gauntlet. And we did that in China shows up to shoot a movie in China. And then it was what was that? Like, by the way? That was an interesting experience. I was still young in my career. I was like, 2627, and being in a foreign country. And the movie, we raised a lot more for that one. So there was we were building these massive sets. And, you know, I had a translator on set all the time to communicate everything to the crew and everything. And so it was it was a challenging process. But the toughest aspect was when we were young filmmakers, right? And we made the mistake of we were like, Oh, we got enough money to shoot this movie. We'll worry about posts, like the money for post afterward. Like, let's just shoot this movie. So we shot the movie, we got in the cab, and we came back and we couldn't we couldn't raise financing for posts. We were like, stuck. We're like, how the hell are we gonna finish this movie now? So it literally took us and then we couldn't get the footage out of the country. So it took us a couple years to get the footage out of the country. It was insane. I mean, my filmmaking career was stalled, basically, because I couldn't see the last movie that I was on. It was it was a step back for me. It took me back a bit. And you know, it really disheartened me. And I was like, oh, man, I like independent filmmaking.

Alex Ferrari 8:00
So I got to ask him, How the hell did you keep going? Because that's, that's depressing. Like, it's depressing. Just to get to make a movie like, you like us. It's hard to even get the money to make a movie, and how to keep going. You've made a movie, it's in the can. And you can't literally even see the footage because it's in another country. Yeah, for 20 years. How did you keep going?

Matt Eskandari 8:21
It gets worse, because so we get the footage out of the country, right? What percent of it is damaged? This was this was the first time people started shooting on digital. And we use something called the Viper film camera. I

Alex Ferrari 8:34
remember the Viper. Yeah. Michael man shot collateral with it. But you didn't have Michael Mann budget.

Matt Eskandari 8:40
Exactly. So I guess we were cutting corners using a cheap hard drive. I don't know what happened. 20% of the footage was gone, right? And I was like, we can't finish the movie. Now. This is crazy. So then I had to go back to the producers. And we had to find backup footage that we oppressed to HD to be able to cut the movie to get like proxy, like proxy proxy stuff. Yeah, we had to appraise proxy footage to cut into the movie. And then what was crazy is it had been now like three years since we shot the movie, right? So we couldn't do pick up shoots because the actors looked all different. And and it was it was it was a it was a pain in the butt. So then, so then I'm just finishing the movie. I'm just like, I just want this to be over with done with this movie like and I just wanted to get it out there and I'm ready for my next movie. Next thing and I had this delusional thought in my mind that oh, this is going to open up so many doors and and this was such a cool movie that once we get it out there and by the time the movie was released and got out there and this and that. He got into some film festivals, but it didn't get into the into Sundance and getting the like really big film festivals, right. So I was like, oh, man, this is basically didn't open up any doors that hadn't been opened and I was like super disheartened by that. I was like, What the hell man? So I'm back to square one again. Sort of, I'm having to rebuild my career. scratch. So then now I'm back to writing I'm writing scripts and trying to scripts made. I didn't even have a manager at the time, I had no manager no reps at all. That was just going to film festivals and going to little things and like chatting with people chatting with producers and saying, like, Hey, I just shot this movie in China, you want check it out. And everyone was like, Oh, that's cool. Like, what are you doing? Next? We got next. And every time I would pitch them stuff. It was always like fake budget, like, oh, I want to just like matrix action, sci fi, this and that. And everyone's like, whoa, okay, well, what have you done? And I'm like, I've done like two movies. And so it was, so it was, it was tough, right? And then finally, I was like, you know, this has been a few years now and directed a movie, if maybe four years or five years almost had been five years. And I was like, oh, man, I need to just shoot something I need to get back on set. I'm just, I'm just, I don't even know if I like directing anymore. Like, just get back on sentence and find joy. So then I started thinking of like, what's a movie that I can just shoot? contained? It's just one location. And I just seen that when we buried that. Yeah. So I was like, Okay, if you can shoot a movie in a coffin, and make it interesting, I'm sure I couldn't find a location that'll work for 90 minutes, I can make interesting. So I started like, doing the research coming up with stuff. And then I found this story about these drunk people to get stuck in a swimming pool when the cover closes in on them. And they're stuck all night in the pool. Right? So I was like, wow, that's, that's a cool concepts. So that before, so I was like, let me do a contain thriller. And you know, I just worst case scenario, I'll shoot this in my backyard pool with like, some actor friends, and we'll shoot it for like, 20 grand or something, right? That was my backup plan. And we'll get into like slam dance or something, right? It'd be like a really character driven piece or whatever. And just just in my kind of going around meeting with people, I found this producer who was like, oh, yeah, I'm a sort of couple places. Let me read the script. If I liked it, I'll see if I get finance. So as I was getting ready to just shoot it myself, and my back, literally, like, in my back, there was an actor's, I get a call from the producer. And he's like, Oh, we got the financing for the phone. You know, can you shoot it for like, 700, grand, 800, grand or whatever. And I was like, hell yeah, that sounds good to me, I'll make it work. So basically, I was able to get back on set, kind of get my directing gear back in and, you know, just get back in the process, the filmmaking process. And that movie, it was tough to shoot, obviously, on the water. We had, like 1718 days, but it turned out really well, right. I mean, that one finally opened up some doors again, and was able to jumpstart my career, which had basically been flagging.

Alex Ferrari 12:41
So let me ask you, what did you do in those five years, man? Like, that's duck the dead zone of like, how did you keep going? How did you keep alive? How did you feed yourself?

Matt Eskandari 12:52
For being you know, I would take up stripping this database,

Alex Ferrari 12:55
you to YouTube, man, you know, I was young, I needed the money. Come on.

Matt Eskandari 13:01
You know, I mean, it was tough man. It was it was it was a tough period there were, you know, a couple things would get auctioned, and then didn't go anywhere. Yeah. Like I was living. My parents went back with my parents again, you know, it was like, this is this is pretty shameful, or whatever, you know. So my parents and training trying to get by and, you know, and then I was telling myself, okay, this is, you know, this year will be the year you know, I'll finally get some billing this year, I'll get a paycheck and I'll be able to move out or whatever. But, you know, it was it was it was disheartening. It's definitely, you know, disheartening, but I'm just one of those people that have always been very persistent, very dogged headed, and I just won't give up. You know what I mean, people told me no, and I'm just like, that's cool. That's your problem. You just don't You don't understand, like, how badass This is, to me. So I just take it from that perspective. And I think it comes to my immigrant background. Because, you know, you know, I don't know if you know, like, immigrant, we have this immigrant mentality where we come into this, and we're like, I'm here for the opportunity, man, just get out of my way. Like, you know, I'm gonna get shit done, because I appreciate the opportunities that are in front of me, and I'll just keep going, you know?

Alex Ferrari 14:08
I listen, man, I agree with you. 100%. I come from an immigrant family as well. And I just saw I learned I mean, you know, to store my grandpa shows up at 55 with doesn't know the language starts completely from scratch after losing his entire fortune and businesses and everything guilt built in Cuba. And because Castro came over and just took everything he had to rebuild from scratch, and like that kind of you see that? You see and you see that? So that's kind of why I definitely credit him. And my mom and my family, just they always all hustle to hustle, hustle. I mean, I mean, zooming that's branded everywhere. I lived the brand. I lived, it's always hustling. So yeah, there is that that persistence that you need to have. And that's why I always love asking those questions because those dark that dark time is the time that makes or breaks you Oops, can you can you survive this? It's easy when you're on set that's easy to survive. Yeah, there's problems on set and all that stuff. But the five years where after year one, you're like next, this is the year, year two, nine, this is a year, year three. This is this is where the this is what the mentality is, like, Am I insane? Right. And you at least have done some stuff. There's people who you're 10 this is the year and they've never done anything. Yeah. And they still going and then unable to do something later. But it's,

Matt Eskandari 15:32
it's it's really what it comes down to. And it's interesting, because yeah, like early on in my career, like I was on the on the law, I had an agent, right out of film school. So I had like this early taste of success. And then I did an indie movie. I was like, 24. And I was like, Hey, I just did an indie movie. I just directed a movie on 35. This is cool. And then to have to spend the next five years not doing anything was tough, right? Because I'd already had a taste of what like I literally gone to steel meetings to direct like big budget movies on like my agent was getting and I was like 23 at a time. And I still remember, like some big name producers, Emirates, like huge producers, but like, how old are you kid and I'm like, 22 and they're like, you direct anything like yes, in shorts. And to go from that to like, not doing move for five years. I was like, it was tough, but it gave me that, like hardheadedness, that persistence that you're like, Okay, if it was in the room once I can get in the room again, man, just just keep busting your ass and getting the

Alex Ferrari 16:28
room again. And I'm, and I'm sure when you were 2223 taking all those meetings, your ego was in check. Obviously, we're very humble about the entire experience.

Matt Eskandari 16:35
I was I was like, Man, I'm the next like Spielberg.

Alex Ferrari 16:41
Everyone says that, like, I'm the next Tarantino baby. I'm

Matt Eskandari 16:45
coming out. Like, oh, man, like I still remember on the lot. They were trying to pigeonhole me as like, the next day, like somebody was like, Oh, you remind me of like the next Tarantino like really?

Alex Ferrari 16:56
If you say so. It must be true. Just start dressing

Matt Eskandari 16:59
like Tarantino and

Alex Ferrari 17:02
start cursing more and, and I don't know, listening to like surf music? I don't know. Yeah, exactly. It's fascinating. Yeah, it's similar to me, I had a little bit of success at the beginning. And excuse me, and then you're like, in a desert. You're basically on a walkabout, you're in the Australian outback for five years, figuring yourself out, doing some sweat, lodging stuff, you know, like, kind of trying to trying to figure things out until finally you just get something going. But it's so important for filmmakers, especially young filmmakers coming up, or new filmmakers coming up to hear these kinds of stories. So they understand this is not going to happen overnight, even with

Matt Eskandari 17:43
people that are super lucky. And you come right in film school, they get a deal with the studio. Next thing, you know, they're directing a fucking Marvel movie or whatever, you know, there's that. But then again, there are people that win the lottery too. And those people are lucky, you know, sometimes you just, it's a one in a million thing. And you can't use that person's career as, okay, that's what I'm gonna follow, right? Because nine times out of 10 You're not going to jump out of film school on how to deal with Paramount and direct the movie, you know, with Colin Farrell, or something you don't I mean,

Alex Ferrari 18:14
it's just so So you mean to tell me that you're not going to make a movie called El Mariachi $7,000. And then 23 Start working in the studio system and then have Final Cut a film or two later, and then just live the rest of your career, doing whatever you want making as many movies as you want, on any budget you want, whenever you want.

Matt Eskandari 18:32
I mean, hey, man, that'd be cool. Yeah, hey, some people get it, they win the lottery. And it's

Alex Ferrari 18:37
and God bless Robert for being able to do that, by the way, but he's an anomaly but so was Spielberg so it was you know, so it was Lucas like all of them had these these they were moments in time that and trust me, I don't know about you, but I studied every directors career path. And when I was coming up in the 90s, I was in a video store when Robert showed up. And when like when Robert like his his El Mariachi legend began then I mean, Rick was first read click letter, then him and Spike Lee, Brothers McMullen, clerks, it just list goes on and on. And during the 90s was every five minutes there was a new lottery ticket that we were all like, yeah. You know, like, Ed Burns was a PA on Entertainment Tonight handed a VHS of a jacked up version of brothers MC voluntad Robert Redford in an elevator. And four months later, Robert, that Sundance office calls and was like, Hey, Robert saw your movie. Is it done? We'd like to, we'd like to screen it. Like, come on. Like, how can you? How can you go down that road?

Matt Eskandari 19:46
Yeah, it's hard to replicate that you know what I mean? Like, look at that story and be like, let me try to do that. You know, it's challenging.

Alex Ferrari 19:53
So, so you've worked with a lot of legendary and and really established actors. I always love Asking this question, how do you work with? How do you approach directing some of these very established actors who have been acting forever? And they're just they know what they're doing? You know, how do you like, so? Can yet yeah, I can I you know, I love what you did there, but can you just how do you approach that situation?

Matt Eskandari 20:21
Like the first time I got to oh, I've worked with some amazing actors 100% Bruce was obviously Bruce Willis was one where Sure, no, it's like one of those things. Like, if you look at his filmography, you're like, Okay, he's worked with Tarantino and Michael Bay, and all these like a list, like directors who I look up to, and I'm like, how, like, for some I was with them, or like, how am I gonna give them direction? Like, I'm not fucking Terry, like, what the hell? So you have, you can't psych yourself out thinking of that, right? So then I started doing the research, I looked into, like, interviews with Bruce, that he did, like, behind the scenes stuff from the 90s, the 2000s, or whatever. And I noticed because I heard some other stories like, Oh, he's tough to work with this, and that, you know, Kevin Smith, blah, blah, blah. I was like, man, like, I want to read about him, I want to know who he is. So I listened to some of the interviews, and I noticed that Bruce was one of those actors that he would, he would talk about how, like M knight would be very specific about what he wanted, what he was wearing this character and the shoes and this and that, and the color and the lighting, and this and that. And so it really isn't okay, so Bruce is one of those guys, he wants the director to, to basically come in with a strong vision, and to talk him through it. And he'll do his job, right. And he just wants to trust that you have something you're trying to tell right. And as long as you go in there with a strong vision, and like confidence, he'll trust you. Right. So that was one of those first things I noticed. So I went in there, trying not to be intimidated. I just want him to the first time I met him, I was like, hey, Bruce, how's it going? And he's like, he was really chilled. He's like, Hey, what's going on? Brother? How's it going? We were like, John, it was trailer. And I started talking about his character whose character is and this and that. And he's like, and then I was like, and I tried to get his thoughts on on the character. And he came back to do some interesting stuff. And I was like, Okay, this is cool. This boy like this. So we were vibing going back and forth. And, and then he's like, I want to try something on this scene. And I was like, and it's Bruce Willis. Once price on the lavatory, something. Yeah. So like, Yeah, let's have fun with it. So he shows up on his first tape. And he does something really crazy. Like he was like, like, it was not in the script at all, like certain

Alex Ferrari 22:25
Nic Cage, Nic Cage style, the cake shop.

Matt Eskandari 22:28
Excuse me, sir, screaming at the other actor, and the other actor wasn't expecting it. And I was like, holy shit. Like, he was like, react ram and the other actor, like, you're a disappointment with, like, what he was like. And I was like, watching this on the monitor. I was like, fucking love it, man. This is like crazy, but I love it. And the other actor was like, ah, shocked and stuff. And so I went to Bruce, he's like, so what do you think? And I was like, That was that was interesting, Bruce, you know, I like a lot, you know, let's try one, like, the more subdued while we like, I tried to talk, he's like, he's cool. You want to try something, right. And you just want to have fun and try something. And then from there, I was able to, like, I saw what he brought to the table. And you know, how he likes to play and have fun. And he'll sometimes add live food additives and stuff. So it's, it's interesting, I feel like with every actor, they're so different. One of your jobs as a director is to, to understand how they work, right. And to change your directing style based on the chapter that's really your job is you're a leader on set. And you're working with these different collaborators who work differently, right? Some actor, you know, they, they're very insecure, and they want you to talk them through the scenes and, you know, other actors, they don't want to over rehearse, they just want to jump in there and try it and see how it feels. And every actor has their own style. But one of the things as a director and you only get this through experience, right? You work with them, you talk with them, you go through the scenes, and you develop your own certain style. And for me, you know, some directors, they love, like, you know, that high energy or whatever for me on set, I'm very silicate, I'm attracted to calm, cool. Competence said, I don't yell. You know, even if somebody breaks something, I don't freak out. You know, the crew member like, you just, I just don't want the set to feel like it's stressful, right? Even though stressful stuff is happening. We all know several stuff is happening. But I try to keep it very stoic mentality so that the actors feel like they have that room to play and have fun. And trust that I'm controlling things right. Otherwise, if they see me run around and stressed out, they're gonna be like, Oh, shit, I don't know what's going on, like what's going on? So that's, that's one of the things that I feel like super key

Alex Ferrari 24:36
is I had a friend of mine who was working with John Malkovich once and first day he walked up to John and did similar things like hey, how you doing? Let's talk about the characters like and then he literally asked him like, John, how do you like to be directed? And John goes, You know what, thank you for asking, you know, and this is kind of my process and this I want to do it and they got like they got along like peas and carrots after To that, because imagine if you're if you're trying to direct somebody with a strong vision of the character, and they're like, No, I'm more method leave me alone and let's it's rough. So working with someone like a John Malkovich. That's not a not a dumb way to approach the situation.

Matt Eskandari 25:19
No, that's, that's actually brilliant, you know, you just walk up to and be like, how do you like doing? How do you like working? You know, it's, it's our first time working together. I want to build like a good collaboration. What's your style? Like? How do you like, and I could definitely see an actor responding positively, positively to that. So that's a cool, it's cool to that.

Alex Ferrari 25:37
Now is there if you had the opportunity man to go back in time, and talk to little Maddie? When he was just coming out, and just started to get into this business? What would be the one thing you would tell him and go, Man, this is gonna be a five year rundown is gonna suck, but just keep going. I know that that's the first thing you're gonna say. Well, what would you what would be something that you wish you would have been told at the beginning of your journey?

Matt Eskandari 26:06
That's a great question. I feel like the one thing I would tell him is, success is not a straight path. There's going to be ups and downs. It's going to be a journey. Enjoy the journey, enjoy every step that you're on, enjoy every film that you're making that show every little actor and collaboration and moment that you're working on set, because it's just a, you can't really look into the future and figure out exactly where you'll be right. So just enjoy those moments. While they're there. I mean, looking back on some of the little short films that I made, the DP that I worked with the front thing to even the moments that we created, and the actors and it's just like, those are the things that you'll remember later on, right? I mean, trying to obsess over being super successful is cool, but at the same time, it's gotta gotta enjoy the moments when you're there.

Alex Ferrari 26:57
Enjoy the journey. And don't worry about the destination so much, basically. Now, a lot of times when we're starting out, especially when you're working on some of these bigger sets, and it's like you were you actually had the opportunity to direct a couple movies when you were younger, I got to believe that a certain point, you ran into some, some resistance on set, let's say, from a crew member from an actor, how do you what any advice for filmmakers who have to deal with a difficult actor or a difficult crew member a DP was like, Nah, I'm not going to shoot the way you do it? Because I'm 30 years older than you and I work with Coppola. What are you going to tell me? Like that kind of attitude, which I've had that conversation on set, which is like, Okay, well, let's see, let's see what happens. So how would you how would you approach that situation?

Matt Eskandari 27:44
You know, I've had something similar. I remember my first film, or extraction. So this isn't exactly

Alex Ferrari 27:50
I know that the first film, early film, sir, early films, short, short, it was a short,

Matt Eskandari 27:56
it was very, there was a scenario where a producer came up to me and he's like, Why are you shooting the scene? Like this zoom lens? Like, why he was questioning? Why are we shooting a scene in a certain way? And, and I blew up on him right now. It was like, I'm the director. I used to like, it was one of those like, very bizarre, like ego moments, you know,

Alex Ferrari 28:16
but then the demonic will come out with a bullhorn did you

Matt Eskandari 28:20
came out, it was thrown on the ground. And, you know, that's not you know, and I burned that bridge hard, right? I was like, eff off and this and that. And I was like, young kid that right? But, but my ego was bruised. So I took it personally. And years later, looking back, like that, pretty. That person is very producer's very successful now and doing really well. And, you know, and it was, it wasn't even a big deal. You know, it was one of those things today, I probably would have been like, oh, yeah, for sure. Man. Like, I would have just taken him to the side and, and had a conversation together and been like, oh, what's the reasoning behind Okay, I'll think of that. Okay, I like that idea. Cool. I would have taken it from that perspective and then just shut it down in that way. Rather than turning into a scene and then from there you know, ruining a bridge and like burning a bridge right? So it's, it's just like those things that you do as a as an up and coming filmmaker, sometimes. You kind of learn from it. That was a was a dumb thing to do. But what do you do? Young?

Alex Ferrari 29:22
A young ego. You know, it's so funny. As a young filmmaker, you need ego. You need healthy. You need a healthy ego and a dose of insanity to even attempt to walk the path. Yeah, for sure. Because it's insane. This isn't your we're carnies man. We're, we're running away with the circus. That's what we are. I mean, this is an insane business to be in. And you have to be insane to believe. I was having this conversation with director the other day, and I go, you've got to be insane and the amount of ego and hubris you must have to talk to someone to go I need $3 million dollars from you to help me facilitate my dream, right? And my vision, and I truly don't give a crap if it makes money or not because it's my art. That conversation has happened multiple times, right?

Matt Eskandari 30:15
It's sometimes it's, you know, you're on set and you're like, hey, this is a $7 million movie, whatever. And it's like, all these decisions are landing on me now. And, I mean, one dumb mistake, and everybody's trusting me, you know, and, and everybody's trusting me to do the right thing. But sometimes I question myself and like, do I, how do I shoot this scene? Like, you know, you have those moments of doubt. And being able to not like, you're gonna be able to have that ego and craziness, like you said, to trust yourself? And say, like, you know what, yeah, let's, we're gonna do this thing this way. In the back of your mind. You're like, Dude, this is like a seminar move. I have to stop like, I'm in trouble, man, but you got to trust yourself. Right?

Alex Ferrari 30:52
Okay, so can you imagine that film students who got the shot that do the Marvel movie? Yeah. How? Can you imagine the pressure?

Matt Eskandari 31:03
Oh, yeah. I mean, in those instances, those people are so kind of catered and taken care of. But,

Alex Ferrari 31:10
I mean, it's a machine. It's a machine. I

Matt Eskandari 31:11
heard they don't shoot a lot of their action. I heard a lot of that stuff is there just like Marvel's like, Oh, don't worry about the action, we're going to shoot that and the directors like what I'd like to be on set for that, if possible.

Alex Ferrari 31:21
Unless you're Sam Raimi? And then they Yes, Mr. Ramey, whatever you'd like to do. So that's another really interesting point. How do you deal with the stress of working on these big movies because, you know, in the scope of independent film, 7 million, 10 million, that's, that's a lot of frickin money. You know, it's not studio money. But it's still in the independent world, you're on the upper echelons working with obviously, people like Bruce, and Kevin, unlike a new movie wire room, that these are upper echelon actors. So there's a stress and a responsibility on your shoulders that if you if you screw this up, you might not get another shot. And I'm imagining that's on your head, I don't mean to like throw you on the edge of on the edge here. You're just gonna jump off the bridge now. But like, you know, Alex, you're right, I can't direct anymore. But there is amount of stress that you have to deal with. How do you process that as a director, and so be creative?

Matt Eskandari 32:19
I remember reading the same like years ago that directors actually have or life expectancy is not very high and I can see why. But the DGA I think they like to do it at the DGA statistics. It's not it's not fun that I'm like, Whoa, okay, that's not that's not cool. But But yeah, the stress the day to day stress, like I said, the way I've learned to deal with that is still in flux who tried to steal the value, right? I mean, just don't let the emotions overtake the moment and just be in the moment. And whether it's something really cool that happens, or whether it's something devastating. And a lot of things do happen sometimes like, Oh, we're shooting at this house tomorrow. Guess what, Matt? You just lost the house location. You know, I could pick up a camera and slam it on the ground and lose my shit. But what does that gonna accomplish? Right? instead? I'm like, Okay, look at it, like, like Kubrick used to look at it like a chess game. Right? Okay, let's get to like a chess game. Okay, that piece got moved here. Interesting. Okay, so now how can we address this? Okay, so how do we address this problem? Or how do I make this next move? Or how do I get another piece back or something. So you have to really, over time build that sort of stoic philosophy, at least for me, I felt like that has helped me survive big G's independent films, even though they're a $10 million budget, whatever. There's a lot of stress. There's a lot of time constraints schedule constraints. On the Bruce movies, particularly, sometimes Bruce shows up, he's only there for two days, and you have to shoot 20 pages a day. So and it's guaranteed by the distributor, he has to be in 20 pages of a movie otherwise, yeah. Basically, someone's getting sued. So you know, so you have to make sure that the schedule is purely well, really tight, tight, like a screw. And if things fall apart, you got to be able to adjust right in the moment, right. And Bruce isn't feeling something, okay. He's not feeling doing this. Okay, let's, let's switch it up, man. He doesn't need to do that anymore. Let's figure something else out. I mean, that's just the way it is. Right? So you have to be able to be flexible and kind of roll with the punches as well.

Alex Ferrari 34:28
So as a director, we always go through that day. That is, you feel like the entire world's coming crashing down around you. Use location camera doesn't work, actors not showing up. Something happens. And you're like, oh my god, how am I going to make the day? What was that moment on any of your films? And how did you overcome it? Yeah, I mean, I feel like honestly, I know every day every

Matt Eskandari 34:51
one of those days, you know what I mean? But on this one was particularly challenging. We had such a tight schedule and I know it every day on this one was like that on wire room was like that. And it's just one of those things that you know, you just you roll with the punches and and sometimes I've had actors come up to me specifically and they're like, Man You seem so like common so despite all you, are you Hi. I'm just like, and I try not to put my stress on like the actors because I want them to like I let them be in their little bubble they don't even know what's going on I remember on a movie survive the night we'll get into but basically the crew unique because they they weren't getting paid or some some some crazy app and basically bounced or something. Something crazy happened, right? So then I had this crew members coming up to me like, like something that happened and I'm like, oh, it looks like rain shoot and now right? And they're like, No, we're not gonna shoot you this or checks bounced or something. And I'm like, Oh, that sucks. Like, any toxic producer right now. So like, I'm scrambling. And this is on a big this is on a 10 Nine diamond. Right? So I'm like, How did you like how did this happen to me like, oh, it was like an accounting error or clerical error. And I'm like, guys, man, now we got the crew. Like, we got the crew doesn't want to like they won't, they will get back on set until you pay them. So get the textbooks out and start paying people because we're in trouble. And and then I didn't let the actress find out either. They're just in their trailers like, Let's take him so on. And we're just, you know, we're figuring some things out. But let's just Google the scene and let's, let's dig into the scene. Let's do some rehearsing, you know, Chase chasing how the police was on like, he signed some checks, man, he's not gonna have a loony bus and actually made the producer come out and apologize to the whole crew, the oldest like to just to get them back on our team, right? Get back on our side, you know, and I was like, that's, you know, that's not something want to deal with and stuff like that happening. You have to just really just be a leader and take the punches and get back at it and look at it strategically, like like I said, like chess, like a chess game. And don't let yourself get taken down by it.

Alex Ferrari 37:01
I've been on shoots that the non union crew got flipped. Really? Oh, yeah. That's fun. That and that that movie was stuck in pose for nine months, because they had two big stars because they had stars in it. So that's why the union, the Union came like, oh, what they have these big stars that they can afford this and couldn't. And, and they're sitting with these things in the hard drive. They're like, yeah, we can't find money to finish this thing. I'm like, really, like, you got two huge stars. And this thing, you can't fit it? Yeah, it took them nine months to get some cash together because all the money went to the flip. And this is, this is the stuff they don't talk in film school. They don't talk to you about

Matt Eskandari 37:41
talking about like, you know, the French New Wave and Italian realism and stuff, which is awesome. It's great. I love it. I love that stuff. But then you're like, Okay, how do I actually do? It was shit when I want a movie?

Alex Ferrari 37:56
How do I get on a movie set? And let alone? How do I do? What's up what I get there? So tell me about your new film wire room. With with Bruce and Kevin and Kevin Dillon. Yeah.

Matt Eskandari 38:06
So you know, I've obviously directed four films out Bruce. And this is my latest one, this one for Lionsgate. It's an interesting script, right? So it was pitched to me by some producers. And it's all set in a wire room, which was an interesting hook to me. I've never seen scenes in a film where it was in a wire room. But was what was cool about this was the whole film is just in a wire room. And that whole challenge felt, you know, interesting to me, it kind of took me back to my days of basically prophy D stuck in one location and try and make it visually cinematic, given these constraints. So I thought that was cool. And just the arc of the character how he was doing this conversation with this drug cartel member over surveillance. And over the course of the film, they develop this sort of chemistry and animosity that develops who are expect and but they never actually are alive in a scene together, right? It's all just who monitors and surveillance and all that, to me just it felt like a cool challenge, a fun challenge or something that would push me as a filmmaker. So soon as I read the script, I was like, Yeah, it's interesting. Like, it's something I could definitely see myself doing. And it was a fun, it was a fun movie to make. I mean, it was definitely like I said, it was tough. It was challenging. It was crazy that it all just came together, though. Like one year, we're in the edit. And like, the pacing, and everything just fell into place in a way that I wasn't sure if it was going to work when you're on set every day you're like, and you know, it's one of those things where Kevin's off, I had him shooting all his scenes, right. And I didn't shoot the other actor on the other end yet, right. So I was off camera basically yelling to Kevin telling him like, Hey, this is what's going on. This is what you're seeing on monitors during the middle takes. So it was like, Oh man, how's that going? How's that gonna, like, translate on screen? That's the one of the cool things about working with these skilled actors. It's like something like Kevin. He's just, he's so on it. And he just he comes in prepared. And he's always on every tape. It's just something fun. It's something different. So not showing him how to act. You know what I mean? He's there. He's got something interesting to do.

Alex Ferrari 40:15
And I'll tell you what, man, I remember when I first started working with a real actor, I was like, Oh, so this is what it's like, as opposed to try to pull out performances and deal with egos and stuff like that. And you're just like, Oh, my God, just keep prepared.

Matt Eskandari 40:31
Yeah. That's one of the biggest jobs as an actor. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 40:35
that's like, all I have to do is your action. And cut. Oh, my God, this is wonderful. It's so liberating when, because in the indie world, you don't get to you. Generally speaking, you don't get to work with high end professional actors, not even movie stars, just professional actors, very often, until you get to a certain level. And then when you get to that level, you're just like, I can't go back.

Matt Eskandari 40:58
No, I've had a film that I did independent film where one of the main actors in the film, he didn't have a lot of experience and froze up on that first few days, because they were great actor to write all my auditions, chemistry, they did great. But being an actor, and then be given the pressure of being on a movie set, because you're one of the leads, that's that's a whole other thing, too. I mean, actors have to have their own shit that they got to deal with, right, and to have the exercises to relax themselves and getting them home in and that they've never done that before. Now you're stuck on a set, and you're like, Whoa, what was that? Why was that? So wouldn't and why isn't it working out? It's because they're so in their head, right? They're so stressed out, so.

Alex Ferrari 41:36
And also, and it's also our job to make sure they have a safe space to play. And if they don't feel safe, but they feel like you don't know what you're doing, then they're gonna go into defensive mode, and like, we're just I gotta, I gotta pull out a performance that's gonna save my ass. Because my pictures on this end, if not, my career is going to take a hit

Matt Eskandari 41:55
that 100% I've seen that on sets before where I'd show up. And I could tell that the actor didn't trust the director, and directed itself basically, or she was directing themselves. I'm like, oh, man, I never want to be in that situation. Because basically, you're just, you're not doing it is the director of that actor, you just stare at the monitor and move on to the next thing, and you're just assuming that they know what they're doing? And it's like,

Alex Ferrari 42:17
whoa. Now you've done a lot of action stuff, dude. How do you approach an action sequence on relatively smaller non giant studio budgets? I mean, because I mean, look, seven $10 million. It's not nothing. Exactly, no, nothing budget, but it's but you're the kind of book like the kind of action sequences I've seen that you've done, are on are comparable to $100 million budget, ya know? How do you handle it?

Matt Eskandari 42:45
I feel like a lot of it comes from experience, I mean, it's one of those things where first of all, I like to do as much in camera as possible. It's one of the things I've learned over the years is, as much as you can do practically, with with the action with the effects, you can always enhance it in post, right. So if you go into that with that mentality of like, oh attorney was imposed, or, you know, we can see this, or I can do this and CG, or you're gonna go into it, and you're gonna be trapped in that post, to the effects world where, without that under million dollar budget, it's not going to look like a Marvel action scene, right? Because you didn't spend the time or the money in post to do that. So I feel like a lot of it comes down to experience and preparation, I storyboard almost scenes. And I work with the same last few films I've been lucky to work in same step choreographer is MCU, he's actually worked on Marvel movies, which is clinical. And, and yeah, and I tell them usually like, Look, man, okay, we got this many action scenes in the film. I want this one to be the money, let's put all of our eggs into this basket and really milk the crap out of this one. And then these other ones, okay, they're just shoot out. So whatever, let's not, let's not go overboard on those. But let's, let's get that trailer seen that trailer action scene in this sequence right here. And he gets it. And so we work together. And I trust when he's giving direction to the stunt guys that they're doing the right thing. You know, I'm trusting and it just comes down to that experience and working with great collaborators.

Alex Ferrari 44:17
You know what's interesting, as you were telling me that story, like you're focusing your energy in your budget on a certain scene, I had a friend of mine who used to work at Disney as an animator, and I was I was always going in the back. I was visiting him and you know, seeing frozen before anyone knew what frozen was, I was like, he's against the ice queen thing that we're doing. No one knew what it was going to be or anything. And I was walking the halls. And then I see this board with like, scenes, and then dollar signs, like little daughter dollar bills. And I go, what is that? And he goes, Oh, well, every director gets a stack of money, a fake money. And then they put how much percentage of the budget goes to what Seems so I was like, interesting. So there's like, yeah, so if there's like a really crazy action sequence that they really want a lot of shots and animation stuff, they'll put more money into that. And then other scenes will have to take a little bit of a backseat. So like every scene is going to be a Michael Bay explosion scene, let's say, right, it's, it's good. So it was a really interesting way that Disney has been apparently they've been doing that for a long, long time, because that's just the way Disney works. It's really it's. And then I also found out that nine months before release dates, they usually scrapped the entire movie they've been working on for two years and start again. That is what since since Snow White. Why, since Snow White, that is just for whatever reason, their creative process, like they go through two years, sometimes 10 years like Rapunzel was like a 10 year I saw the original Rapunzel artwork. It was supposed to be like, Leonardo da Vinci artwork, but an entire town built around that style. Is it gone? And they just, and then like the release dates done that the T shirts are being made, the dresses are being built. You got nine months to rebuild, and I was like, what? How did 12 hour 1520 hour days? It's just It's just what they do, man.

Matt Eskandari 46:20
So I didn't know that. That's a little crazy. But the money to do the money and I do it.

Alex Ferrari 46:26
I mean, it's just Yeah, cuz they make you they made a billion off of just the frozen dresses alone. It's insane. Now, I wanted to ask you something, because you've been working with a young up and coming producer named Randall Emmett for a little bit for you just starting out. He's a good guy. He's doing some school stuff. No, but he Randall has this kind of machine that he has built a very impressive machine that he's built. What are some lessons you've learned from working with a producer like him? Because he's popping stuff out? Yeah. Like I haven't seen in a while.

Matt Eskandari 46:59
It's basically he's got like a deal with Lionsgate and basically, they turn and they have this process where, basically, if they can get an A list star, like a Bruce or Mel, it whoever, they get the right script, either a Lions Gate, or one of these studios will basically back to film, and they have a very strict schedule on when it gets released. What has to happen, I think the biggest lesson that I learned from it was, you know, like I said, I mean, you're, you're a director for hire, you're brought in and you have to execute a very strict sort of script, right? It's, it's this much action is to have Bruce or whoever in it for 20 minutes. And there's always to postpone process where you need to deliver the movie on this date has to happen doesn't matter, whatever. So if you're cutting shots out and dependent shots out, so you have to go in there very prepared. And you have to go in there knowing that, you know, I'm not in there to, to turn their movie, turn an action movie into a musical or something, you know, and I'm not coming in there to be like, okay, cool. I just like vision where I want to make this sort of like a, an artsy, whatever, you know, it's like no, man, this movie. There's, it's pre sold to territories all over the world. And they're going to cut a trailer and they're expecting it to be a badass little action movie for middle of the Middle East, you know, wherever it's going, it has to work, right? So you go in there creatively knowing that and being like, okay, how can I, as a director, elevate this, you know, and really take it to the next level, without changing what it is, right? It's like, it's like being given a Coca Cola and being like, Okay, your job is to sell this Coca Cola, don't turn it into it, it's like someone else, you know what I mean? You're still making a Coca Cola, but just deliver it in a way that is interesting and unique and an elevated as much as you can.

Alex Ferrari 48:50
Very, very cool. Yeah, cuz I mean, the closest thing I've seen that Randles deal is just kind of like what Jason Blum has, like, he has a similar thing, like, yeah, boom, boom, machine, boom, boom machine, and they keep pumping out and doing good stuff, doing good stuff at the budget ranges they're doing so it's really interesting, the way you said that is like, look, you're our director for hire, you're not there to rebuild the machine, the machine is running, you're a cog in a very important cog. And you're trying to do what you can within the realm of the limitations that they give you to do some good work within that. It's kind of like the same thing with Marvel, like, you can't,

Matt Eskandari 49:29
you can't go into Marvel and be like, Okay, you guys have decided to make a Marvel movie with, you know, no action in it, and there's gonna be a lot like X rated sexing and they're gonna be like, what? You know, it's not gonna work. So it's a model, right? It's a model that works and sells and audiences pay for it, obviously. So you have to deliver.

Alex Ferrari 49:50
And the one time that Marvel did let that happen, do you know the movie that they did let that happen on where the director had complete carte blanche, they rewrote the origin of The character, and it was a complete and other box office failure. Was it eternal? Oh, no Hulk. Oh, go away. Ang Lee the Angley Hulk, which was like, like, there was abuse in the family. And that's why he was angry in these transitions. And we're like,

Matt Eskandari 50:20
there was no like, action scene in that movie. Right? Well, that kind of was but there was no,

Alex Ferrari 50:23
he's like jumping and beating up tanks and stuff. There's no

Matt Eskandari 50:27
nothing. So once the Hulk smashing somebody, right, I want to say that

Alex Ferrari 50:31
there was no Hulk Smash. There was no Hulk Smash. So how can you have a Hulk movie with no Hulk Smash? Like, there's what so that was, that was the first and I think afterwards gonna face it. Okay. Okay, I don't care if you want an Oscar. This is our characters our way. And this is the way it is. And like when they bring someone like Sam Raimi in, Sam, they just give Sam has a big box to play in. Oh, yeah. But it's still a Marvel movie, but it's a SAM Marvel movie. And they don't do that very often. They usually bring in younger directors that have a cool vision. So but Sam, Sam, I mean,

Matt Eskandari 51:06
no, I mean, and when I was watching that film, I totally felt Sam in that movie. Like this the way scenes are shot, I was like, man, but like, it's still a Marvel movie, right? It wasn't like it's something different, right?

Alex Ferrari 51:20
Like I was, I was afraid to watch it with my daughters. Like, I'm like, I should I shouldn't watch this first before because and there's some imagery in there, man. Yeah, now there's there's some Serious Sam Raimi. But Sam got away with that in Spider Man two after the success of Spider Man One, that whole horror scene with Medaka box is like slicing people with like razor blades in the operating room, like this come from like, that's, that's the Evil Dead? Evil Dead Sea. It's awesome. Now, I'm gonna ask you a few questions asked all of my guests, or what advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Matt Eskandari 51:56
That's a good question. I mean, I know we talked about it briefly before this. It's interesting how so much of the industry has changed so much from when I was growing up in industry. So it's hard for me to say, a very specific thing that that a person can do to go up because I could give the advice that I did shoot a short film, or a film festival won an award, get an agent, right into indie film, but it's like that whole model, I don't know if I can tell you that confidently and say, that's still a viable model these days. Because I don't know. I mean, I'm not an up and coming filmmaker in the trenches. But what I can say is, have a unique voice, have a something to say. And really, don't give up. Like, I know it sounds cliche. And that's something that persist things all the time, but persistence, and if I could sum it all, it just comes down to toughing it out. Don't compare yourself to the one head guy who comes out of film school or whatever it is, erecting a Marvel movie, just don't do it. Just go in there and knowing that I want to be a working director or working cinematographer, or working editor, and focus on that every day. And after years and years of doing it. One day you wake up and I'm like, That's happened to me. I was like, I woke up one day, I was like, Well, I'm like a working director, and I'm getting paid money. And I'm working with like a list. Like if you told me 10 years ago, just one man in 10 years, you're going to work with Bruce Willis and Kevin Beeline and blah, blah, blah. And not only that you're gonna work on versus last movie ever. He's in retire after this and be like, Hi, no, like, no. So you just got to go into it, knowing that and that's, that's, that's hopefully will pay off.

Alex Ferrari 53:31
Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Matt Eskandari 53:35
The adage of enjoying the journey, not so much a destination and it's another cliche, but you know, as you grow older, a lot of those those old adages, they coalesce in your mind for a reason, it really is the important thing, because then you'll look back and be like, Oh, I remember that movie of that movie. And it's the experiences and making them a really will make them memorable, looking back. And sometimes you won't even watch your old movies anymore. But you remember the people that you worked with the actors, the friends that you made, you know, it's just one of the things you learn as a filmmaker as you get more through your career.

Alex Ferrari 54:09
And three of your favorite films of all time.

Matt Eskandari 54:12
Diehard I gotta say because I'm a huge action director and it's Christmas movie greatest Christmas movie of all time, really all time and it's just a perfect action movie. Bruce is amazing. Genre Canyon.

Alex Ferrari 54:24
And he also made he also made predator another I was

Matt Eskandari 54:26
Gonna say predators, even diehard or predator is one of those. It's so tough. Then second is probably Terminator two. James Cameron sci fi action. I just, it's a perfection. Perfection.

Alex Ferrari 54:40
You can't get any better than that. Oh, no. Aliens so you can alien in Terminator on the same on the same one I'll give you because aliens is a masterpiece.

Matt Eskandari 54:48
Exactly. And probably going to throw a Tony Scott movie on there. So I'm gonna say I'm just so good. So, you know, he's Yeah, actually, that was one of the jokes. I was I had other friends when I mentioned that I was an intern for Ridley Scott and Associates. And I was I was interning with Tony Scott, which was a cool experience.

Alex Ferrari 55:09
What was that? What was those conversations?

Matt Eskandari 55:11
Like, was cool. I mean, I remember they told me like, my manager was like, don't talk to really don't talk to Tony. I was like, What do you think I'm doing it for free. I'm not here to like, you guys do coffee. I'm here to talk to these guys, man. So that we plug them all the time for stuff. And I remember what time I walked into. This was like, interesting. So I walked into his office at the end of the day, I told him the system I was at, it was like, for me, 10 minutes was really nice, too. I talked to him. Yeah. And it's like, 7pm when he's like, done for the day, we'll talk to you for like, 10 minutes have like a one on one. I was like sleep. So then I showed up at seven o'clock. I sat across from him and he's like, Oh, what do you do? And I was like, you know, I'm in film school at USC, blah, blah. I want to be a director, you know, and he's like, cool boys. Like, what are you doing now? What have you shot? And he's been I was like, Well, I shot a couple things, but I want to like, thinking about shooting this one thing. He's like, Alright, cool. I got this one. He's like, go into that bait that Attica when it was nattokinase office. He's like, there's these 35 millimeter short ends. I don't know what I'm using music video or commercial, because I take all those Oh, shoot your movie. And just do it and just go shoot your movie. They'll talk about it. I was like, okay, so I wanted to dedicate the short ends and I was like, Alright, man. Now now I have a mission. I gotta shoot a movie with these short and so it was a cool, it's cool.

Alex Ferrari 56:32
It was almost like a god from Mount Hollywood. And I was like, you take the short ends and go and follow the dream. And look at you as a filmmaker like Ridley Scott told me I have to go shoot this movie. And we're motivated, right?

Matt Eskandari 56:45
I was like, Okay, I have to do it, man really trying to shoot a movie short. And so I got to do it. Yeah. So yeah, it was it was a fun little anecdote in my career. And it was just like, it was cool as far as because that he would actually give me that advice. And but like you said, it's almost like passing on the torch. He's like, I don't have any wonderful advice, man. Just go do something.

Alex Ferrari 57:03
And here take take my short ends for luck. I have not blessed these. You may go and shoot.

Matt Eskandari 57:11
The first film that I shot that won an award so Hey, man, maybe he did?

Alex Ferrari 57:16
Let him man bless by the patron saint of commercials Ridley Scott.

Matt Eskandari 57:25
I used his leftovers but hey, they weren't.

Alex Ferrari 57:27
Hey, man. I'll take really Scott's leftovers any day of the week on about you so when is when is the wire room come out of where can people see it? Why room comes out

Matt Eskandari 57:38
September 2, and it'll be on select theaters. I don't know exactly what it is what it means select theaters or shopping cities. And then it'll be on most of the streaming platforms. Apple iTunes and all those good things so just keep an eye out for it. Search for it.

Alex Ferrari 57:55
Man it's been a pleasure talking to you brother. It's been so much fun talking shop with your continued success brother and and and thank you for bringing Bruce to us in these last few movies that he's been in I really appreciate the work you've been doing. And keep rockin and rollin brother and we should have like a get together for on the lot survivors.

Matt Eskandari 58:16
Man. No, definitely. I mean, it was a pleasure, man. Thank you so much. I mean, I had really great conversation with you. I think what you're doing is great with this podcast and with this site. So you know helping out the next generation. I think that's important too as filmmakers. We got to pass our short and it's down to the next

Alex Ferrari 58:34
I appreciate you brother.

Matt Eskandari 58:38
Yeah, same brother. It was good to talk to you, man. Take care.

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IFH 611: How I Got My Vampire Film Released by Sony with Jessica M. Thompson

Jessica Thompson is an Emmy-nominated filmmaker who made her feature writer-directorial debut with “The Light of the Moon”. The film won the Audience Award for Best Narrative Film at the SXSW Film Festival. “The Light of the Moon”, starring Stephanie Beatriz (Brooklyn Nine-Nine, In The Heights, Encanto), enjoyed a limited theatrical release to sold-out screens in both New York and Los Angeles and heralds a 97% Rotten Tomatoes score. Critics called the film “harrowingly effective” (Variety), “honest and complex” (The Hollywood Reporter), and Film Inquiry stated, “for any filmmaker this would be an unmitigated triumph, but for a first time filmmaker this is revelatory.”

Jess was the lead director on Showtime’s original series, “The End”, produced by the Academy Award-winning See-Saw Films (The Power of the Dog, The King’s Speech). “The End” is a dramedy, told through three generations of a dysfunctional family who are trying to die with dignity, live with none, and make it count. The series received five-star reviews from The Guardian and The Times.

In 2021, Jess directed her second feature, “The Invitation”, a Sony Picture’s thriller-horror, written by herself and Blair Butler. It will have a worldwide cinematic release on August 26th, 2022.

After the death of her mother and having no other known relatives, Evie (Nathalie Emmanuel) takes a DNA test…and discovers a long-lost cousin she never knew she had. Invited by her newfound family to a lavish wedding in the English countryside, she’s at first seduced by the sexy aristocrat host but is soon thrust into a nightmare of survival as she uncovers twisted secrets in her family’s history and the unsettling intentions behind their sinful generosity.

In 2010, Jess founded Stedfast Productions, a collective of visual storytellers who use film to explore the complexity of the human story.

Jess is an Australian filmmaker who resides in Los Angeles. She is repped by CAA, Kaplan/Perrone Entertainment, and Independent Talent Group (UK).

Enjoy my conversation with Jessica M. Thompson.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Jessica M. Thompson 0:00
You have to keep going, you have to keep trying. Because you know, if you became you know, I think it's like a professor or whatever, you know, if you could change something else, you will never love it as much as you love filmmaking, you will never feel completely satisfied. So really what kept me going always kept making waking me up in the morning. And don't get me wrong. There were some days where I really like I really didn't get out of bed. Like I was like, just like, I had a big no, after working so hard for free. And that's something else that they don't tell you, especially with directing how much work you do for free before you get a job.

Alex Ferrari 0:30
This episode is brought to you by the Best Selling Book, Rise of the Filmtrepreneur how to turn your independent film into a money making business. Learn more at filmbizbook.com. I'd like to welcome to the show. Jessica M. Thompson. How're you doing Jess?

Jessica M. Thompson 0:45
I'm doing great. How are you doing?

Alex Ferrari 0:47
I'm doing great. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I am excited to talk about your new project the invitation which is just insane. It's insane. It's beautiful. I want to talk to you about production design. I want to talk about how you got that. Everything I want to talk about all that stuff, because it obviously wasn't done for five grand. So

Jessica M. Thompson 1:05
I've moved on. I've moved on in the world from my little indie films that I made for, you know, $100,000.

Alex Ferrari 1:11
You know what, but that that those are the ones those are the ones who get you started. And you probably learned you've learned Christ so much in that $100,000.

Jessica M. Thompson 1:20
Oh, no. And I actually do think that restriction helps you be more creative. You know, like, you've got to stretch that bother you got budget, you've got to make it work, you know, and that's why indie filmmakers, so entrepreneurial, you know, there's so they'll make any budget stretch.

Alex Ferrari 1:35
I mean, you have to I mean, there's no choice in the matter, kind of like you're against the wall when you're an independent filmmaker, because, you know, there's no one's show, there's no as as Mark Two plus as the Calvary is not coming.

Jessica M. Thompson 1:46
That's right, it's you. And that's why I mean, I'm sure it was my first film, I was like the writer, the director, the editor, the producer, I also was the Social Media Manager, I did the posters, instance you end up wearing every single hat. But by that, by that, what's great about that, as you get to know every single aspect of the industry, you know, and so that makes you better informed. And so that's why I always whenever there's like, executives that I meet with and they're a little bit hesitant about hiring an independent filmmaker to do either TV or whatever. I'm like, You don't understand how you know, we're scrappy, scrappy, resourceful, you know, independent filmmakers, if you need to film you know, seven pages, eight pages, nine pages in a day, we'll do it.

Alex Ferrari 2:24
There's no question. No question. So my first question is how and why in God's green earth? Did you want to get into this insanity that is called the film industry?

Jessica M. Thompson 2:33
I mean, that's a great question. But to be honest, I was. I come from a family that is not you know, in the creative arts by any means. My mom, first generation Australian, my mom is from a tiny little country called Malta. And yeah, so we grew up very much blue collar roots. She's a single mom, I have three siblings, you know, and I at 12 years old, I watched Brave Heart. And I decided, I want to tell stories. on film,

Alex Ferrari 3:01
How old were you when you watch Braveheart?

Jessica M. Thompson 3:03
Well may may 15 Yeah, I can't remember the year but made me think that I was 12 years old. It was one of those blockbuster Fridays, you know, where you every family goes down to Blockbuster and picks them here in the new big here. It was like Braveheart. So we all watched it. And because like I said, I was the youngest of four right before the end. My mom was like, Jess, she paused it and was you know, I can spoil Braveheart. Everyone should have watched it. But right before William Wallace gets like hung drawn and quartered. She pulled it she's like, Jess, you're too young for this go to bed.

Alex Ferrari 3:34
Really? Now. Now?

Jessica M. Thompson 3:35
I was like, no, no, you can't do this to me. And so as I say, as we say, in Australia, I checked the tanti like fruit and stormed upstairs and I had this I did this crazy thing where, you know, there's big old school alarm clocks. This is before the internet came before mobile phones, yeah. Before iPhones or whatever. So I set my alarm clock to 230 in the morning, and I put it inside my pillowcase. And it so that it would wake me up at night, wake up the rest of the house. And I crept downstairs, and I rewound it and had to rewind because it's VHS, and I had to like not watch what happened around it and watched it. And then I was just I was like, that's it. I want to that's it. The story just moved me so much. I just wanted to tell story. So I opened up the Yellow Pages.

Alex Ferrari 4:21
How is that possible? You look like you're 20 my dear. How is that possible? You don't even know what a yellow?

Jessica M. Thompson 4:27
I'll take. I'll take that. I'll take the couple of bucks. But yeah, so I opened up the Yellow Pages. And I looked up Film, film schools, like in film, like, you know, places to go to. And like I said, we grew up on welfare like I didn't, you know, we had, luckily the government of Australia is very, you know, kind to its citizens. And, you know, and my mom couldn't afford it. So I went to work at Toys R Us to pay for my screenwriting classes by acting classes, my directing classes, and I've never looked back. I've never wavered.

Alex Ferrari 4:55
So the fascinating part about that story is that at the end, is when your mom said you No, I think this will be a little bit too much for you, not the not the decapitations, or the legs being cut off, or any of anything.

Jessica M. Thompson 5:08
No horse dying.

Alex Ferrari 5:12
The horse dying

Jessica M. Thompson 5:14
100 horses that died out.

Alex Ferrari 5:16
You know what's so funny about that movie that horse dying sticks out in so many people's head even though it's a fake course, obviously. But it sticks out in people's head more than the 1000s of men. Well, you know, that was?

Jessica M. Thompson 5:28
Well, you know, Francis Ford Coppola with apocalypse. Now, that whole scene where he picks up the Labrador puppy, and they hold the gun to its head. That's the thing that people remember. And like, you know, in his whole point of putting that in was like, we have become so desensitized to the death of humans and the violence against humans. And it's such a great way visual way to tell that and of course, as soon as that happens to everyone in the theater, I mean, I was, I am a bit too young. I did not watch that in the theaters.

Alex Ferrari 5:53
But then, when he was when he was slicing, I think they were killing it. Was it the calf or the cow while they were killing? Marlon Brando? Again, sorry, spoiler alert, guys, if you have, it's not our

Jessica M. Thompson 6:03
Failure on movies that everyone listening to this podcast would have listened to it, I would have watched it.

Alex Ferrari 6:08
If they haven't. It's not my fault that these are prerequisites. These are prerequisites. So alright, so when you when you started going down this journey, I'm assuming coming from Australia, the Hollywood just called you right and just said, Hey, can you come over? Do you want and how much money works.

Jessica M. Thompson 6:25
So like, you've got like a really great accent. Let's like you're here, you're in New York. So what happened was at 18, I went to film school in Australia called University of Technology, Sydney, they have a really good film film program that was super hard to get into. I was the only kid from that side of town, just I know, people listening might be more American skewed. But I come from like the not pretty Bondi Beach part of Sydney, basically. So I used to have to commute to university an hour and a half there an hour and a half back. Yeah, but I was with all these posh yuppies, whose parents were in the film industry already. So I already hadn't had to, you know, compete with these kids. And I just put my all into it. You know, we went to a technological film school. So we had access to 16 millimeter cameras, we have access to digital, you know, everything I learned to edit on a Steenbeck originally, you know, and that was just to show us the trade. That's not because of my age. Yeah, you know, and so we made a film almost every month, like you had access to every URL to, you know, you know, industry standard equipment, and recording studios and things like that. So you're encouraged to use that as much as possible. And I just did, I just dived in and like, did it. And it's through university, through film school that I really fell in love with editing. And I realized how important editing is to, you know, to crafting a story. It's basically, you know, the three storytellers, the writer, the director, and the editor, you can make a completely different film in the edit room, right. So so then I just, I looked at some of my favorite directors, and a lot of them have an editing background like you know, Jordan, Cohen, Kurosawa even you know, like so I decided after that to go into editing, it felt like a bit more of a clear path and doing the production hustle. That being said, I've also done you know, production managing and things like that. But yeah, so I got into editing climbed up the ranks, only doing commercials and music videos at that point. Did one documentary and then and then I kept applying I kept making short films. I kept applying for grants in Australia you most things get done through the government there which is called Screen Australia. It's like our I don't know it's like really anything to get anything made in Australia. And I just found I couldn't I couldn't break in in Australia. I couldn't it's a smaller industry obviously. But we have a lot of American productions that come down there which is great you know, we have the doors and you know, the Batman's whether they go but come down there and shoot our commands and stuff. So but that's not really if you want to be a writer director. That opportunity Yeah, because it's the they're gonna bring the American directors and stuff so

Alex Ferrari 9:02
So let me ask you because your path is similar to mine because I started in the editing world as well. That's how I learned the AVID. I did Steenbeck I thought it was the

Jessica M. Thompson 9:11
I did the I did the AVID as well. I can say that was nice. Just for like, you know,

Alex Ferrari 9:16
It was in my school they taught me they taught me our dad taught me nonlinear editing, online editing. And then they took me to a Steenbeck I'm like, Are you just what you savages? Like what is this that you want me to film with a scissor or razor and it was just it was mind blowing to me like and you want me to put tape on and if I'm kind of on the fence, but if you really liked the cut you glue it are we like how is like it would blow my mind

Jessica M. Thompson 9:47
And to do a crossfade you like actually like crossfade it? Oh my god,

Alex Ferrari 9:52
What is what is going on? By the way I have to ask I have to ask because in America in every film school in the country when You use the Steenbeck you always use the same footage. It was just stock footage, the same one. It was an episode of Gun Smoke. No, that was Was it okay. I was wondering what that was. Because every from USC to NYU to my little school down in Orlando, they all used the Gun Smoke it because when I talk to other editors or other filmmakers, I kind of see my digital gun smell. Yeah, that's what we did.

Jessica M. Thompson 10:26
Guns. Mike is getting some residuals from this. But nothing smokes it.

Alex Ferrari 10:31
Okay.

Jessica M. Thompson 10:33
We had to, we shot on it was our own films, we stop and fix. Oh, wow.

Alex Ferrari 10:38
Yeah. So yeah, so I did the same thing. And I because I wanted to be a director. So I was like, I'm gonna go through the editing process, because that's like, I don't want to be on set because I did the set thing. And waking up at three o'clock in the morning for like, 50 bucks to be a PA and then just sitting somewhere in the not even near set in the mud somewhere, driving, telling people where to park that's like, this sucks. This is not well.

Jessica M. Thompson 10:59
And also, when you think about it with editing, you're one step away from the I mean, you're right there, you're working with the directors, you're working with the producers, actually. So therefore, you know, when you're a PA or you know, you're so far you never meet those people, you never even get to interact with them, though. It's great experience. Don't get me wrong, I think everyone should pay the dues. And you know, you know, work on sets as well. But I think it's like, I don't know, I found editing to be a bit more of a clear a defined path for me. And also, I mean, it's an incredible skill to know, and it helps you as a director. So

Alex Ferrari 11:28
Massively, it massively helps you as a director. So let me ask you that, how did you make the trip? How do you make the transition from Australia to the US? What what was that? Because I think that's where the interesting part is in your story, because you had to come up. It was tough in Australia, but now you're a little fish in a very big pond out here. So how did you make that transition? And how did you even just get work and survive?

Jessica M. Thompson 11:50
Yeah, so I was 24. When I moved over to the States, I got to LA for six weeks and was like no, not for me. At the time, I now do live in LA but at the time, LA is a brutal place when you don't know anyone I literally knew nobody in the state 00 connections. I started to go on a road trip for nine months. And I visited 40 states and all a lot of Canada, Canada as well. And I filmed this was during the 2009 kind of financial crisis. And I shot a little like kind of documentary road story, meeting some of the people that I met, you know, on the way and things like that never finished that. So, but it was really fun. I really got to know I think the US, you know, my new my new home, and I landed in New York, it was a bad decision in that I really used up a wall with my money on that road trip.

Alex Ferrari 12:39
Don't beat yourself up. You're 24 We were already there.

Jessica M. Thompson 12:41
And I slept I slept in the back of my car. I like made a very, you know, I did it. I did a very low key. But yeah, I got to New York and New as the second I made in New York. I was like, this is this is my home city. I love this place. And yeah, like I said, move there with very little money. And I because I had these skills of an editor. I started to get freelance work as a commercial editor. But of course, knowing that I wanted to kind of transition into features. So I actually took a step back in my career and took an assistant editing job with Liz Garbus. The, you know, she's done a lot of great documentaries. She did the Nina Simone one recently on a HBO film called there's something wrong with that, Diane. And then what was great is she brought me into her next film, which was called Love mountain and and that was actually a narrative documentary hybrid. And so he brought me into edit that one. So then I got to, you know, a new that I started to get. Yeah, so then I was off. So then I started to get a lot of editing. And being a bit which is a bit easier for women documentarian and filmmaker in the industry and the feminists are definitely like, much more common and more accepted. So it felt like a little bit easier to break in, in that regard. And I feel documentary and narrative. They're all storytelling right there to me, they're not we put such a divided between them, but especially in terms of editing because you just get all the footage and then they're like, Okay, make a story. Like, okay, so with the, for instance, the Greg Louganis documentary that I edited HBO Yeah, like that had archival from like multiple Olympics. And I should say my brother was an Olympian. So that's why I was really interested in like this, you know, what happens to our Olympians once they've kind of done and especially when, you know, Greg, being queer and HIV positive, he really didn't have an easy go though. He's like, the best diver in the world. So I was really interested in that story. But then we had sit down interviews, then we had buried a footage and it's literally like, craft the story. And that was really, you know, in terms of screenwriting, that's a really incredible process to go through. You know, it's a really great skill to know. Yeah, and then basically, I felt I'd made another short film in New York, and then I felt ready. I had written a lot of the moon I realized a lot An idea is actually bigger than a lot of them. They're shocking, shocking, shocking. So a lot of them are more sci fi or more genre based. And I have a joke that my friend that I made day one of film school color below, where he's produced all of my short films and produced the light of the moon with me. And he I have enjoyed that. He said to me, Okay, Jeff, you've got two characters in six locations now, right? Something like, he was like, you keep writing things that are just too big to make, like

Alex Ferrari 15:29
45 locations five, five company moves in a day? Yeah, got it.

Jessica M. Thompson 15:33
Yeah. Yeah. So he's like, that's all that's all we'll be able to fundraise, you know, so we did this, I did that then a lot of the men came to be, unfortunately, because it happened to a friend of mine. And and I said to her, I haven't seen this story told in an authentic way, you know, about a woman's recovery and about how it affects her relationship to work. But also, when she really doesn't want to be the label of a survivor or victim. Like she's like, No, she just wants to, she wants to keep a sense of humor. She wants to like, you know, she doesn't want her friends to worry about it like, and I just thought that was a really interesting modern story. And one that had not been very well. So I wrote it. And then And then yeah, we made it from $100,000.

Alex Ferrari 16:14
And you know, it did its job because it got you your new film the invitation. But before we get to the invitation,

Jessica M. Thompson 16:21
I want to say that everybody in that in we'll get back to that every single person who in the light of the moon, I'm so glad that their star has risen because of that film, from the producers, to the actors to the you know, to the hair and makeup artists. Everyone you know, I love that when you when you everyone puts their heart and soul into something and it really pays off. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 16:39
Now you also did the apprenticeship on The Handmaid's Tale, which, to be fair, not a bad apprenticeship. I mean, if you're going to do one, I would have liked that that would be nice. So

Jessica M. Thompson 16:51
What I told my rep, I mean, so that was the light of the moon and I met my managers at South by Southwest, which I really was ill prepared for like, I did not realize how much film festivals I just like a meat market. Sorry, I should say that.

Alex Ferrari 17:04
It is at the top guys like Sundance South by Tribeca, like some of the big boys. They are something like that. But yeah, if you got a movie in there, you'll get.

Jessica M. Thompson 17:12
Yeah, you also and we sold the film at the festival, which sometimes doesn't happen. We were very fortunate that it did happen to us. So you're having those meetings, you're meeting lots of managers. And I was like, Whoa, this is like I thought I was just gonna go and watch 100 movies. No, I saw like three films. It was so sad. Yeah, so I met my reps there who have just been incredible supporters of mine. And I said to them, I really want to do an apprentice and I want to do it on The Handmaid's Tale, and they made it happen. Now I will say like as glamour it was fantastic. And I really like helped me. And, you know, it was an incredible experience. But what they don't tell you is that you pay your way you pay for the flights you pay for your accommodation. It's expensive and it's really it shows you how classes this industry is you really so I really went into the red that year. And I'm very grateful that because I came up in commercials that I had a little bit of savings behind me but I'd really I mean, I'd maxed out my credit cards to make the film. I donated my eggs. To make the film

Alex Ferrari 18:10
I found another one I had a I had a filmmaker who came on to donated her eggs and Sanyo Hara of course Anya Yes, she was in life. She was in my last movie. She was the star of my last movie.

Jessica M. Thompson 18:21
Yeah, she's my best friend.

Alex Ferrari 18:24
Sonya is amazing. I love it.

Jessica M. Thompson 18:26
Yeah, but we did it. We actually donated our eggs separately, did not know each other and then met and we were like, Hey, you must be the only other person to have done.

Alex Ferrari 18:35
So So what were some lessons you picked up on The Handmaid's Tale, because that's a heck of a set to be on.

Jessica M. Thompson 18:40
Yeah, I mean, it was really like that scaling up of all the ideas that you have, right. So it's like, you know how to do it, you know about doing it on that scale and doing it with that timeframe doing it with that amount of departments that amount like this. So many people, it's like such a well oiled machine, that show an actor's really know their characters inside and out. So a lot of your work as a director, if you're coming in episodically is already done in terms of, you know, your actor, it's not like you're doing extensive rehearsals or anything like that, because unless there's a specific scene that's like a little bit novel or something. So, yeah, I mean, I learned so much about the pace of TV, and like, and how quickly everything news and how well I mean, I learned how your first ad can really make or break a day like news like that. Oh, yeah. And really saw that come into action. You know, it's basically taking what you know, and doing it on a small you know, obviously, we had 15 days to shoot the London and so then going from that and scaling up and having, you know, five days in 12 days and episode for an hour, you know, 13 days an episode is like such a joy in such a you know, but you've got to make sure those days are running really smoothly. Yes, I learnt a lot I'm gonna learn about Michael Parker, who was the director I was shadowing was an absolute legend. And he really kind of showed me his process and how we goes about kind of formulating the story cracking the story of figuring out. And also, you know, the biggest thing I learned was that the scripts come in the morning. And it's crazy that like, to me, I've always had the privilege. And luckily, even with my TV series, the end that I did sound stress had written every single episode before I even came on board. So that's, that's a big privilege in the TV industry, you know, and a lot of the time you're, you've got the idea of the episode, you're told, they were like, you're told what kind of locations you'll need. But you quite often won't have a final script or the morning that you're shooting. And that I told me that I have to kind of relinquish control sometimes and just go with the flow.

Alex Ferrari 20:40
Wow, that's yeah, it's, it's, I've been on many sets on direct TV sets. And it's, it's amazing how insane it's a well, it's organized chaos, in so many ways, because everybody knows what they're doing. The machine is running. But stuff like that happens. You just like, and then the actors just go, they just learn their lines quickly. And I mean, isn't it wonderful? Because I mean, you've worked in the indie space, and you've worked with in the professional like really high end professional space. It's been a wonderful when you get to work with like, quality professional actors, that just Oh, yeah, that you just don't have to, like, learn your lines, man. You know, your mark, man. Like none of it. That's all they just know what they're doing. You basically are just there to capture the lightning, as I say.

Jessica M. Thompson 21:24
I mean, consummate professionals, it really does make a difference right?

Alex Ferrari 21:29
Now, when you first walked on a set as a director, in a professional manner, not your indie project, but in a professional set of a television show something, what was that day like for you, because at that point, you've already got a handful of hours under your belt, you know, you know, hundreds of hours, probably under your belt of being on set one way, shape, or form, plus all your experience in the editing room. But that first day, when they're like there's a check at the end of the week for you. And you're walking and you're like, I gotta run this whole thing. And these guys all know, hell a lot more than I do. Probably. What was that feeling? Like?

Jessica M. Thompson 22:05
I mean, first of all, I never sleep the day before. So it's just I always try I try every technique, I get the lavender scented candle down. And I you know, you know listening to hypnosis and sleep stories and things. It doesn't matter, none of it, I take a yeah, all the melatonin and none of it works. I will just I just know now that I will be up all night. And it's fine. Because the next day you just done pure adrenaline, right? You have it that first day was probably was on the set at the end. And I mean, it's such a it's your, your heart is buzzing, you're you're just saying what the smell of your face. But also there's like a nervous energy, there's a nervous, you know, anticipation, to, you know, your all the things that you've been working towards, or the things you've been studying over, or that now it's coming into play. And I can feel you know, there's this kind of it happens on every set, where the kind of executives and the producers they all kind of lean in a little bit. They're all a little bit like, Okay, this you know, we know this one was incredible. We really love her work, but is she does she have the goods and then I love that throughout that first day when that first like kind of take and at first, you know, the scene starts to come together, and whatever. And I love feeling that relaxed moment where everyone's just like, Oh, she knows what she's doing.

Alex Ferrari 23:22
Okay, good. She knows what a camera is. She knows what an actor is fantastic.

Jessica M. Thompson 23:25
Yeah, she knows how to make it look great. She knows how to get the right performances. Fantastic. And so I love when there's that moment when I feel that element of trust is like, okay, she got this.

Alex Ferrari 23:35
So let me ask you, because so, so many people don't talk about this. And this is something I love talking about on the show, the politics of the set. Nobody talks about the politics of this, especially when you're a young director, someone coming in for the first time when you're dealing with some of these veterans on set. I had a script supervisor who was questioning me on set when I was on a job. And I had already been directing for quite some time. But she didn't know my resume. This is pre internet as pre IMDB. So nobody knew that, you know, just to see as young director, and she was giving me crap every second and she was questioning me in front of other people every second. And she had been around forever and I had to deal with I had to pull her aside. I'm like, look at you know, either get on board or get off the set. And I had to put her in her place. And then with after the first day, we I think we had it this is an insane amount of setups, but I must have done between the two cameras about 70 or 80 setups. And in a 10 hour day, I move really really quickly. And because of being an editor, I just, I just know what I need. So I just have probably at the end of the day, I found out that the producer had sent her in as a spy, to make sure I was doing it Ken is this guy capable of doing this job? And then at the end, she's like, No, he's perfectly fine. You could do the job. But this is the kind of stuff that you've got You don't talk about so how did you I'm assuming in your career, there's been a one or two times that some a crew member, a DP or a production designer or scripts, or first ad, push back or their ego got out of control, and you had to kind of step up, what was that like and how you deal with those kind of political situations.

Jessica M. Thompson 25:21
I mean, it's luckily the more and more that I've gotten on and then less and less that happens, which is fantastic. But yes, there was definitely something a little bit I'm sure the structure but like young filmmakers and female filmmakers, I don't think I know it's crazy. But I come in and I'm pretty we have a word that bolshy, which I don't think really translates that bad. Like, you've got good stuff. I think I've got a lot of good stuff. So I think they I think there's a little bit of respect already that's done it but I will say the people that I have the usually have the biggest problem with his gafas. Yah, grips blessa. But for some reason gafas they usually come from these kind of old school. Tough guy on the set, yeah, got it. Exactly. Drinking beer out of there, like, you know, camo pack. And things I love to take the peace and love to shoot the cheered, I love to you know, I can, I can, you know, keep up with the best of them. But sometimes I just think there's a moment where it's, there's always been a bit of like, Look, you need to you need to, you know, chill out, and you need to like, listen to me, and you need to stop this. Luckily, I will say I've worked with incredible first, they think they have a real knack for picking a person ID. And I've always, you know, gotten along really, really well. My first they didn't have always had my back and always kind of helped me navigate those situations. And that's another reason why a first idea is worth their weight in gold, because they really protect the director from some of those situations. You know, and I will say in the commercial work because I do commercial directing as well. DPS in that are certain type of animal, and I cannot handle the talkback, I cannot and I have a like now I just have a no alcohol policy. So if someone is really doing that, then no, I don't have time for you, like, get off my set. And you know, luckily, I'm in a position where I'm allowed to do that. But even even with the invitation, you know, there's always there's always here's what, here's what I say I'm so good at picking my hods I made sure that we have such similar tastes and sensibilities, I look at their bridesmaids. I love what they do. And I make sure that, you know, we've got we've got, it's like a mind meld, right. But there's always going to be focused on at the time we disagree. And I think that those 5% is really telling of a person's character and personality. When how because I love to collaborate. I love to I want to hear your ideas and why you want to do it that way. And at the end of the day, I'm the director, like, you've got to, you got to, you got to do what I say. And so that was you know, and I won't name names, but there was some times aren't even on this set, where I was like, Oh my gosh, like we just at the end of the day, I understand where you're coming from, but this is where I'm coming from, you need to just do it. But it is it is odd and I wish it's getting like I said it's getting less and less. And I really do respect everyone having their own in their opinions, but it's when it's in a disrespectful manner. And I will say I want to put shout out to the Hungarian crews most respectful crew up there in Australia and America nothing compared to the Hungarian cruise. I was like wildly impressed with how much respect that and then you got it you can imagine that it's a very male dominated crew. It's still I never felt like anyone was didn't think that I was capable or you know, everyone, everyone really respected me that even called me Madam Director, which I thought was a fun.

Alex Ferrari 28:38
That's actually adorable. I love that. I would like to serve director that would be nice.

Jessica M. Thompson 28:44
I was like guys need to stop. I've no no keep going.

Alex Ferrari 28:47
But no by you please more more of that, please. No, it's important to put these kinds of stories out there because a lot of directors will walk on set not even know that this is a situation that because I remember when I first got on set, and I had to address something like that I wasn't prepared. I just you're just not told about this. You don't have the tools or the ammunition to kind of deal with it. And if you've got an older you know, you got a gaffer who's been in the business for 40 years is like when I worked with Coppola. I'm like, What do you like? And you're like, 25

Jessica M. Thompson 29:19
Yeah, exactly. And that there was a reason why you've been hired right? There's a reason was because the the producers they trust on your vision, you know, someone or the financier is or whoever it is someone you are the person with the goods, right, and you're the person that hires all these people. So I think as long as they there's great respect and I you can tell straight away when someone respects you or not. So I mean, I find it pretty early on, if I feel like someone's gonna be a problem like and I've never, you know, it's only happened once where and it wasn't like a big wasn't a gap or anything, but I could just tell that it was like, someone in the camera team wants that. I was like, No, this guy he won't look me in the eye. He won't, you know, he like kind of mumbles every time I asked him something, you know, I'm like, we need to replace him. Like it's just not gonna work right, right. But mostly, mostly people were so excited to make films people want to, you know, succeed in your vision, especially if after like after a couple of days and they realize that you're, you know, you're not doing the stock standards. Why move close, like or something and I feel and I feel

Alex Ferrari 30:18
Isn't a fun isn't it fun when you put when you push as a crew and you're like, Okay, well, so we're gonna do we're gonna do the shop like Kubrick did, like, oh, it's like, you know, and you'll end up only using about three seconds of that of that 32nd shot. But yeah,

Jessica M. Thompson 30:31
Exactly. I know, we have this incredible crane shot. And then we go to a ronin handoff and do so joyous when you get this, like the CRO crew working together seamlessly. And the act is knowing that. Yeah, but also like the energy in the room when you finally achieve it. Without one, you know, it's

Alex Ferrari 30:49
It's remarkable. Now, is there anything that you wish someone would have told you at the beginning of your career? Like if you could have a chance to go back to the young Jess, listen to we just snuck down to watch the Braveheart ending. And go Look, honey, you're gonna be in the film industry. But this is you need to know this.

Jessica M. Thompson 31:10
Yeah, I mean, there was something that I would the first thing is, I wish I could just tell myself everything is going to be okay. Because I honestly used to get so when you know, and I'm sure you the same, like when you're working so hard on the script, and you get so close that you don't get it or you're pitching on a job and you don't get it and the amount of noes, right everyone thinks that, you know, your, your success, they look at your resume, because she's had like an ad or something like that. There's so many nose for every yes, there's like 100 nose, right. And I just wished because I used to get like so you know, upset and destroy and like wonder whether I was being a fool. And like whether I was chasing just a dream that was not going to eventuate I will just go back to school, but maybe you need to go through that right? And maybe you need that energy that I get up, get you up in the morning, but I wish I could just let go give me a hug and be like, it'll be okay. It's gonna

Alex Ferrari 32:00
Just keep going. Just keep going. You'll be fine. Yeah. So let me ask you.

Jessica M. Thompson 32:03
Also, though, stay stay true to your vision, like when someone is trying to push you or challenge you, or push you in a certain direction. Just if you in your gut know something is right, just really listen to your gut.

Alex Ferrari 32:15
So that's another question. I love asking people because I've asked myself this question after almost 30 years doing this. What keeps what kept you going in those times? What kept you going in the nose and the nose? And I'm assuming it wasn't like a month or two, it might have been a year or two could have been years where you, you maybe get a little win, but you've got like 400 losses, like and you just you question your I think I think every filmmaker worth is waiting in salt. Wood would say at one point or another in the career, is this the right path? Am I have I made a mistake? Is this worth the pain that I'm going through? How did you? How did you keep going?

Jessica M. Thompson 32:57
It's a great question. And I I want to let people know that even before so when we we missed the deadline for Sundance. So for for the light the moon. And so the next one was sapphire that I really wanted. And we submitted to South Bend we'd already found out that we got into Tribeca, but I really wanted South pie. And because we had that pressure of knowing that we got into Tribeca we tried to set us up by could you make a decision soon because we have to let you know we have to get back into turbo, another incredible festival but I really wanted South by and they told me that they would tell us before Christmas, which is a very early to know that you're going into a much festival, but in competition, and I was waiting I remember I was in Australia with my mom because my brother had just gotten married and mum and I were on a road trip and it was like I want to say December 22 or 20 Like it felt like before Christmas it was like getting down to the wire and I remember I had to pull over the car because we were driving. So I was burst into tears and I was like Is it too late to become a doctor like bombs like it's not Christmas yet. But then you'll never guess two hours later I get an American call on my cell Mike and I answered and we got in and we got into the competition so so I'm saying that happens even when you've made something that you know is good. It's still like you still have the all that doubt. But I think what got me through is sheer desperation. I never had a backup like I never was someone and I'm not saying you know that you shouldn't you know, everyone's path is different. But there was nothing else that I loved. Like there was nothing else that I could do you know, because so to me, it was like, you have to keep going you have to keep trying. Because you know if you became you know, I think it's like a professor or whatever you know if you could change something else. You will never love it as much as you love filmmaking. You will never feel completely satisfied. So really what kept me going right away kept making waking me up in the morning and don't get me wrong. There were some days where I really like I really didn't get out of bed like I was like just like I had a big no. After working so hard for free. And that's something else that they don't tell you, especially with directing how much work you do for free before you get a job. Like, it's insane. It's insane. The pictures, the amount, you know, the amount of effort the decks I'd made, you know, to get the end, I made like an 18 minute video, you know, I was like, and did like a montage of me speaking like, you know that this is how when you especially when you're starting out, right? You've got to put in so and then when you get to know at the end of doing all that,

Alex Ferrari 35:26
Or the buyer does or the money doesn't drop?

Jessica M. Thompson 35:29
Oh, you get it? Yes. And then the money doesn't come in or whatever. It's just brutal.

Alex Ferrari 35:33
It's me psychologically what we go through his absolutely brutal. So I love asking everybody from a young filmmaker, like yourself all the way to Oscar winners, everyone goes through the same process as everybody, everybody. No one is just born and thrown into the mix. They all have a level of it even even the Wonder kids like Robert Rodriguez when he's 23. You know, Orson Welles when he was, if you want to go back that far, but they all go through some sort of struggle even. Yes, most of us go through more straight.

Jessica M. Thompson 36:05
I knew, like, you know, I had this skill of editing, I knew that I could be an underdog. Like, I know, financially, I knew. I was like, but I knew that it wasn't a love, like, don't get me wrong. It's a joy. Editing is great, but it's not a deep love, you know, people who are real editors that like want to do that every single day. They've got like a deep passion for editing. And so I was like, okay, yes, sir. So I'm not going to be poor. That's not the problem. But the problem is, I'm not Am I ever going to, you know, get to tell the stories I want to tell you so.

Alex Ferrari 36:34
So let me because because this is something that only editors who turned into directors couldn't we can talk about this, I need some therapy myself. So we're gonna talk about this for a second. There's a thing about when I always said the same thing, I'm like, I need I always tell people advice when they're coming up, like what should i What job should I get, I go find a job inside the business or in the satellite of the business. So you can make connections, you can work with people, and making you know, and that kind of stuff, build those kinds of relationships. But as an editor, being in the edit room, I mean, I've delivered probably over 5060 movies in my day as an editor and colada color, I suppose supervisor, all that kind of stuff. Out of all the projects I've done on my IMDb, maybe three or four I enjoyed, like, truly loved the process. Love the filmmakers love. The rest of them are just a paycheck. Honestly, there is something about being so close to the process, and yet not being able to do it yourself. That is a frustration in that. And only an editor who wants to be a director can understand it. Do you feel the same way? Did you feel the same way?

Jessica M. Thompson 37:42
Not Yes, yes. Yes. Yes, yes. But I will say because I edited documentaries that it was and I really, and I don't have much of a desire to direct documentaries. I actually don't think I have any. Unless I mean, it depends. Maybe I won't

Alex Ferrari 37:58
Say that one that never got finished.

Jessica M. Thompson 38:00
Oh, that's why I didn't finish it. But like, Um, no, I've always wanted to direct narrative. So to me, I had that distinction because I so at least it was like a different part of my brain. Even though I truly believe that documentary narrative is all the same tool. It's all the same storytelling. It's got to start middle and end You know, it's got you know, the climax everything. But so to me, I at least never had that I want to do this i or i could do this better than you know. And, you know, this afternoon, I'm meeting up with Sheriff magenic, who's the director of back on board and so that shows you how much I loved editing that film with her. But yes, I really do especially in commercials. Okay, so, today is the day the light of the moon came out of the IFC here in New York, we you know, it was a limited release, we had 1010 or 12 cinemas around the States and North America. I was finishing up a water commercial. And they I needed to get down to the cinema like these. These people didn't know I was editing it. So these people didn't know that I had a feature film coming out down the road. And I needed to go and these people were what I am I like to swear on this podcast a little bit. Sure. Okay, okay, so I call it pixel fucking when just like people are just

Alex Ferrari 39:08
That's the term I use years ago.

Jessica M. Thompson 39:10
Yes. Because that's Yeah, yeah. And I was just, I was just like, I couldn't tell them that I couldn't do this anymore. Because I was like, and I'm not you know, I'm someone who usually is quite pleasant, but I was being so short like coming back and I literally I think I said in the room. I said in the room we're not curing cancer dies.

Alex Ferrari 39:28
Like it's enough. Oh, no, oh, no, that with commercials. You can spend weeks on on the shot of the bottle. And that just just tweaking and maybe a frame here and can we get a light there, maybe we could do a visual effect, just endless because there's so much money, they could just keep going and going. I was part of a project once that was six weeks for three commercials 3/32 commercials six weeks. I just we just have there all day waiting for clients to come in and move things here. Let's add that It was it was in absolutely insane commercials.

Jessica M. Thompson 40:03
Yeah, he's uh, yeah, so that's definitely like, but now um, yeah, I will say I really respect the edit that it has I worked with. And I think I think another thing that I don't know how you if you get their silence, but like, people think that I'm going to be really controlling over my editor. We're good. Yeah. But I'm actually the opposite. And like, No, I respect them so deeply because they are another storyteller. I literally said to Tom Elkins, who edited this, I was like, turn that director's cut like that first six weeks of that director's cut time is yours. Like, don't show me anything. You just craft the story that you can do whatever you want, and literally go with your gut, because you're going to then show me things that I didn't even think of editing that way. And that's the, that's the joy. And that's the, that's the collaboration. And he was like, wow, I thought you were gonna be like, over breathing down my neck. And I was like, No, you know, of course, there's going to be some stranger. I'm like, yeah, nice try, but let's like do it this way. But then I really, there was a couple of things, especially with the scares because he's like, you know, a horror aficionado and has, you know, edited a lot of big horror films. He really like showed me something that I that I knew I catch it, but like that, he showed me it in a different way, which was really incredible.

Alex Ferrari 41:12
And I and it doesn't editor, I always love handing off the grunt work of organizing all the dailies, and the bins. And like, that's brutal. So I'm like, when I actually sat down, like all the works done for me to Office is nice.

Jessica M. Thompson 41:27
I don't know, it's funny when, when, at the end of the end of the film, you know, the editor and the assistant editor know the movie so much better than you. And like, they'll be like, Oh, that scene 42 part. But I'm like, I remember being that person he like knew every single being in there every single file. And I you know,

Alex Ferrari 41:46
I'll tell you one quick story, that when you were talking about like we're having to work on a commercial than trying to get into direct doing the directing, at the same time with the pixel fucking, I was, I was posed supervising, coloring, and VFX supervising a 10 or $15 million show for Hulu. At the same time prepping an entire series that I was producing, my production company was producing, and I was directing. And there was and I told everybody what was going on. But then I had to overlap. So I would like my first day, I almost died. First day shot 12 hours, went home, had to edit, conform, export something up because Hulu wanted it. So I was and I woke up the next morning, just it's just it was I had to do that for two or three days. Because they overlap. And I needed to get that episode out in order to get it out for Hulu for that week. And it was just brutal and is one of the most brutal production times of my life. But it was just

Jessica M. Thompson 42:47
You have to go through it. But it's so hard to like be present, when present in the in the more survival job when it's so hard to be present. I remember one time I was at I was on like, a third date with a guy and I was transparent cards. So every like arrows, excuse me, gotta go. So I was literally we're at a bar. And but it was me and my house and I was like run back upstairs to transfer cars. And I was like, This is me trying to have a life.

Alex Ferrari 43:11
Well, that's amazing. Because he's like, look, I want to have I want to have to date but I got car transfers. I have to transfer parts. I'm sorry.

Jessica M. Thompson 43:18
Yes. Yeah. I mean, it's just gonna set an alarm every 45 minutes. And then but that's

Alex Ferrari 43:23
the insanity that we we were insane. I mean, filmmakers are insane. And artists are insane. In general, filmmakers are a different breed of insanity. Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's just an absurd. It's an obsession. I call it the beautiful disease. Because once you get it, you can't get rid of it. Like you can't get.

Jessica M. Thompson 43:40
We torture out so then you can't get rid of it. Once you're done. You're done.

Alex Ferrari 43:44
You're done. You're done. Now, tell me about your new film the invitation. It is stunning. It looks beautiful. And now you mentioned Hungary, Hungary. So I was like, Okay, that makes more sense now, because I'm assuming this castle wasn't in Texas. So

Jessica M. Thompson 43:58
I made it. I built it all.

Alex Ferrari 44:02
The Marvel movie budget, you'd have a marvel? Yeah, absolutely. But tell me about it.

Jessica M. Thompson 44:06
Yeah. So yeah, the invitation you know, um, so it's about a young woman who's an artist down and out and in New York, and she just recently lost a mom and she does a DNA test and finds out she has a long lost relative. And he invites her to this lavish wedding and you know, basically everything goes away. It turns into a horror film. You know, it's about it's really like a mashup of genres, which is what drew me to drew me to the script, the initial script that Blair Butler wrote, and then we rewrote it together and kind of weapon it together. You know, I loved one that it was an origin story of the brides of Dracula, which I was like, I have not seen this and I want to make it you know, but also that to me, the metaphor was all laid in there in terms of like, sticking it to the man smashing the patriarchy, you know that but without hitting it over the head, you know, it was entertainment first and that's always what I want to do. Yeah, and, and then immediately, you know, one of the biggest things was I want to didn't need to be a woman of color. So I thought that added once again, another layer literally, it's the metaphor of rich eating the poor, you know, the upstairs downstairs world. And then, you know, having a lot of power adds another layer to that to that story of Dracula, what we're doing is saying he represents the pinnacle of the patriarchy. And he's got all these people in cahoots with him supporting him, which is how these people work. You know, Harvey Weinstein, although they did work in a vacuum, there was people who were keeping them up there. That's what the film was all about. Without like I said, Without belaboring the point. Yeah. And then I you know, so yeah, Blair and I worked on the script, really focusing on those character relationships, building the those arcs, those character arcs, and really grounding the dialogue. I really love naturalistic dialogue and humor, and you know, peppering humor throughout. And then yeah, Natalie Emmanuel came on board, who was always like, my top choice for the role, and I was so glad that she, you know, saw herself in a character. And then it kind of all snowballed from there. I mean, yeah. So screen James obviously, making it the screen job. So my first studio film took me about, I had to pitch it like four times all the different people there. And then it was right at the start of the last meeting, march 16 2020, before the world

Alex Ferrari 46:14
Stop for a second. So stop for a second. So now, everybody listening, you will now have a studio and I've had by the way, so many filmmakers have been on the show that's had this exact problem. I got to I got greenlit, and the entire world shuts down. And then of course, the filmmaker thinks, Why me, like, burning for like, but I want to shoot my movie were insane.

Jessica M. Thompson 46:37
Yeah, no, it's crazy. It's crazy. So literally, I would say like the last day birch, the president of Screen Gems, I want to say that the last thing was that he shook my hand and said, You got the job we did. And we fist bumps because pandemic and and he was like, okay, and now we're all shutting down Sony Pictures. So that was the last meeting, he took the last meeting I took about I got the official, you're the you've got the job. Luckily, though, because I still had to rewrite, you know, there's still work to do on the script. And we thought, you know, the pandemic is going to be three weeks or whatever, we'll be fine. So but it didn't give us time to really perfect the script and really, like kind of, you know, work on it. And then yeah, it took a little bit longer than I wanted it to to get it the green light to get it into production. But then, you know, we swung it to production. I think I flew over to Hungary in June of 2021. So not crazy, not a crazy like, wait.

Alex Ferrari 47:27
But and that's the other thing I hear from a lot of filmmakers. I went through this process of like, oh, we had all the time in the world to do a recut to pick up shots and figure out what we would do. So if they were in production, I had to stop, they can go back at it, like oh, you don't really need to do this, this. So they come and they kind of rewrote, so you had time, which is

Jessica M. Thompson 47:44
And I will say we got shut down twice during production for COVID, just two days each time. And I will say that one of them fell right in the middle of the shoot the 40 day shoot. And we had, so the whole crew got a long weekend. And I will say everyone came back refreshed. And I was like maybe we need to just put a four day weekend in the middle of every shoot. Because it really like you know, the energy checks. I think there is some point it taught us to slow down a little bit, which is maybe a good thing.

Alex Ferrari 48:09
Yeah, absolutely. Now, I always ask this question on the invitation. What we all have that day that the entire world is coming crashing down around us as directors. And I argued to say that's every day. There's something that happens like that. But there's always the one day that was just such a massive thing. What was the worst day? And the worst thing that happened to you on this and how did you overcome it?

Jessica M. Thompson 48:34
Yeah, I mean, I'm with you. Every day, there's always new challenge, right? And I love the challenges, they often end up becoming the biggest joy when you finally get through it. But I am like insanely well prepared and organized directly. So I think my challenges are usually pretty, like limited. Like, I'm not I'm not saying that it's just I'm like so insane on organization. I'm kind of a little bit micromanaging that way. But I will say there was a day that I came in, there was this ice out scene, and there was hardly any ice. And I was like, what how did this get miscommunicated it's literally called the Ice House. And then so we had to move all the ice from once and whenever I couldn't do like any wise because you know, which I love in epic wide. Yeah. So then everyone had to like move the ice from one side when we wanted to shoot on that side and the move that I saw that other side. And then also we definitely spoken about because we had three actors one who was a 65 year old woman you know, lying on top of these ice blocks and we definitely talked about having three blocks of faith is for them to do that and they did not show up. So I could not believe I had to ask my actors to do this. They were all willing to do it one of them though got so cold that we needed to take like you know, she almost got hypothermia, you know, she had to go get warmed up because she was that Britain lips was so blue, you know? So I just felt like it just felt like there was so many miscommunication that day. And I was just like it's so as a director you want to especially my any responsibility to the actors, you know, to make sure their life is easy to make sure they're safe. And they're happy. And so I just felt like it's just more like, I felt like I'd let them down. And that's hard for me is when it's especially when I know that it's even if it is my fault, like it easily isn't my fault. It's like, I hate having to let my actors down, for whatever reason. So that was a hard day, emotionally hard day because I was just like, and I knew as well it took longer to shoot, right, because yeah, I had to cut out some of the shots, though. And I still think the scene was beautiful. And it's absolutely effective. And it's great. But I just, you know, yeah, having to like stop every however long to move all these giant ice blocks was just like crazy.

Alex Ferrari 50:45
I have to I have to because when you were saying this a story came into my head when I was doing my demo reel, back in the day shot on 35 for commercials, right? We went with a club scene was supposed to be in Senate club, and you know, some sort of comedy bit Comedy Spot that I was doing. And we get there. And the the actress that my quote unquote, production manager was supposed to get me. They didn't show up. So it's a club scene. You need a Club member, you need people to be dancing and moving around. Even if it's by the bar, you still need like five people 10 people I can get into frame. And, and it was so bad. The footage was so bad because I was I was I was starting out I was just starting out as a director. I was so bad that I had to. Eventually I burned the paper in the negative and I had to reshoot the entire thing later and cost me another 10 grand and 50 grand out of out of my credit card to reshoot it. But I remember that I still remember the footage in my I still remember in my mind, seeing the dailies I'm like I can't I can't release this. This is horrendous. And it's just some time and I couldn't I couldn't overcome it that day. I just and I had to DPS to DPS to DPS. At the same time. Have you ever worked to DPS at the same time?

Jessica M. Thompson 52:00
No, because I mean, on a splinter unit but not

Alex Ferrari 52:04
On the day at the same time. I didn't know enough to say no to that. So I had to deal with two DPS, who were both egomaniacs and idiots and idiots lit the thing horribly. So these are hard lessons that cost me 10s of 1000s of dollars.

Jessica M. Thompson 52:22
That's what the thing is what people don't realize you put your name on this. So it's got a you know, you, the buck stops with you. So if it's not going to look good, that's all on you. You know?

Alex Ferrari 52:33
Let's give her the job anyway, because that the DP did a bad job.

Jessica M. Thompson 52:35
No, no, it's, it's, you know, that's why you gotta keep fighting, you have to always keep fighting. Now, when I've learned how to fight differently over the years, I should say, I realized that it's not always best to come in just guns blazing, like you've got to like, you know, there's, there's different techniques to fight. So it's like, if you know, something's really vitally important is, you know, I something that I've learned mine. And his process is that if someone has a crazy idea, you know, you've got producers, you've got executives, you've got bosses about you, you know, especially in the studio system, let them try it and let them fail. You know, it won't work. So you're telling them, this won't work because of ABC doesn't help them because they can't visualize it the way you can. So the best thing to do is to just take the time, isn't it sad that you have to tell your editor Look, I know, it's laborious, but do it and show them why it won't work otherwise, because me telling them they're just going to think I'm being you know, difficult and not wanting to participate. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 53:33
I don't know if you ever did this when you were editing. But I always used to love doing this. I would always throw a red herring into the edit. For the client. I would throw something that's so purposely bad a misspelling the cut, obviously was wrong, something that they would justify their position in the room.

Jessica M. Thompson 53:50
Yeah, I have. Absolutely. Always worked because they just have something to talk about.

Alex Ferrari 53:55
Give them like, oh, man, that cool. We got to cover that. Oh, thanks for catching that. I appreciate that very much. As opposed to like, it's perfect. And like then they start screwing with your cut.

Jessica M. Thompson 54:05
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Really happy. None of those people are listening to the podcast, but that's exactly what I do. Generally, leave that in there. Yeah. Means you know, absolutely. You know, put that in there. Let them comment on that because then they will ignore the other thing that I want to

Alex Ferrari 54:24
Get them something big to look at, but start a fire over here. So they ignore this. The bank robbery over?

Jessica M. Thompson 54:32
Exactly, exactly.

Alex Ferrari 54:35
When's the invitation out and when people get where can people see it?

Jessica M. Thompson 54:38
August 26. All around the world. 20,000 screens. Let's do it!I'm excuse me how many screens you can do is you know, 20,000 Wow.

I mean, I know Yeah, I think it's 3000 in the US is so and then I think it's like between somewhere between 15 to 20,000 in the in the world. My mom You know, it was really funny because, obviously, the love of the moon when it played in Australia, she had she lives an hour and a half north of Sydney, but also all the indie theaters are in Sydney. So she had to, like, you know, drive down and like, you know, make it make a day. She's like, Oh, do I have to do that? I was like, Mom, it's gonna be fine at the mall down the road. But I think she's like, at the mall. And I'm like,

Alex Ferrari 55:18
That's awesome. I'm so happy about that. Because it is genuine that indies but like non IP based movies in today's world don't get the kind of theatrical

Jessica M. Thompson 55:28
Original ideas, original ideas don't typically get and

Alex Ferrari 55:31
No, no, and you don't have Tom Cruise in it. So it's not like a massive, you have just, you know, really great actors in it.

Jessica M. Thompson 55:38
And I think Sony, you know, believes in the fact that they gave us a summer release date before we didn't finish shooting. I mean, they obviously really love the film. And I'm glad you know, they're incredible partners. And yeah, and so I'm excited to see how the world responds to that.

Alex Ferrari 55:52
Oh, my god, that's amazing. Congrats on that. And I'm gonna ask you a few questions. I ask all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Jessica M. Thompson 56:01
Don't give up, persevere. Just keep going. Down the nose. Everyone gets nose. Don't you know what Hafele like, this is your this is your gotta hustle. You got to work. Although you got to work. All the jobs. I know. At the start. No job is beneath you. I'm sorry. At the start. No job is maybe of course if you're directing something, you should be really picky. You should have discernment. Absolutely. That's what I'm saying when you're just earning your stripes. Do it all do it all.

Alex Ferrari 56:30
I had I just had a guest on last week that they did wedding videos at the beginning.

Jessica M. Thompson 56:37
That was my number one. I'm sorry, I hadn't even mentioned that. I used to. I do when I moved to New York. I used to do very high end wedding videos for a lot of you know, kind of aristocratic New Yorker. And that was one of the my main gigs and I will say the chips from the father from the data the bride were fantastic. That's awesome. Yeah. Oh, and so I still to this day, I would be particular girl and class. I was always my favorite tequila. I steal from a client that I edited at that I directed never their wedding Do they still send me a bottle of tar sands every year. It was it was great to be honest. Because it's one day. And it's there's a lot of money in it. So it was just it was that's like you said you've either got to do jobs that are adjacent. So like editing jobs, that things where you can learn the craft and when you can build connections, or you need to figure out how to make the most amount of money with the little amount of effort so that you can focus on your writing and your filmmaking

Alex Ferrari 57:37
Absolutely absolutely no question. Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Jessica M. Thompson 57:45
I think I've still I've I think I've learned that yet. Patience.

Alex Ferrari 57:51
That's my number one number with patience so

Jessica M. Thompson 57:54
I'm definitely better than I was like, I used to have absolute, you know, fits crying fits when I was like 14 because I hadn't won an Oscar. No joke. I was like, so I've definitely I definitely am much calmer than I used to be as a human being, but I'm still learning. I'm still learning patients.

Alex Ferrari 58:14
And three of your favorite films of all time.

Jessica M. Thompson 58:19
Is I hate this question. So many today, okay, today, today, the shining Stanley Kubrick is always my number one horror, and I just I could watch that film every year. It's just every time it's a masterpiece.

Alex Ferrari 58:35
Did you did you watch? Did you watch it room two was a two to the documentary.

Jessica M. Thompson 58:39
I actually really I mean, but actually knew all those things. But I'm such a geek that I kind of knew all the little facts and and knew what was the one with you and McGregor actually thought was not awful. It's knowing

Alex Ferrari 58:51
Doctor sleep, actually, but it was good.

Jessica M. Thompson 58:53
I was better than I expected. I expected to be treasurer. So I mean, I was I was into it. Yeah, so the shining Ainley Brokeback Mountain. I've never had a film that I thought about for like, five days after that. I kept getting emotional about that. I was just like, why couldn't they be together? It was just one of those films that just like nearly moved me and broke, broke broke my heart. So you know that one for emotional reasons. And then the last one, I'm going to be douchey and say similarities. There's so much yeah, it's great. And I love the child in it and I just think it's like you know a classic that I love actually Oh, that even on the waterfront, they're out there also like they're all about even on the I just I love those guns. So those three are kind of they all go together.

Alex Ferrari 59:51
And like Sullivan's Travels, I mean, you could just watch that person. Any movies about making movies? I always love watching status.

Jessica M. Thompson 59:59
Absolutely. You're crazy what's crazy with all about it? He does that it still works now you can literally make all about it now maybe I should look into this, but like it actually is still extremely relevant. I love that.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:13
Jess it has been an absolute pleasure and honor talking to you. It's been so much fun. Congrats on your success and the invitation and I can't wait to see what you come up with next. I really appreciate you my dear.

Jessica M. Thompson 1:00:24
Thank you, Alex. It's been so much fun.

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IFH 609: How Directing Star Wars Fan Films Changed My Career with Jason Satterlund

Jason Satterlund has been writing and directing films for about 100 years. He’s directed multiple award-winning feature films and, in 2021, he wrote and directed 28 episodes of television.

His Star Wars film, Kenobi, clocked one million views in 24 hours, and landed on Steven Soderbergh’s watch list. This resulted in a cover page article in the New York Time’s arts section.

His latest feature film, “The Abandon,” just sold to Lionsgate is will be seen in theaters across North America.

When he isn’t busting his hump on his own projects, he enjoys teaching filmmaking workshops and shaping the filmmakers of the future.

Enjoy my conversation with Jason Satterlund.

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Jason Satterlund 0:00
Approach that problem optimistically your mind is 30% more active. 30% pessimism literally shuts your mind off. So that as you get angry and twisted and frustrated, it is killing your creativity.

Alex Ferrari 0:17
This episode is brought to you by the best selling book Rise of the Filmtrepreneur how to turn your independent film into a money making business. Learn more at filmbizbook.com

I'd like to welcome to the show Jason Satterlund. How you doing Jason?

Jason Satterlund 0:44
I am fantastic. Thank you.

Alex Ferrari 0:47
Thank you for coming on the show brother. I appreciate it man I've I've been a fan for from a distance for a little while man and I'm glad you reached out dude I saw could no be a while ago because I'm a Star Wars geek. If many of you before my show, I used to have a life sized Yoda that sits in the back behind me. But now Yoda sits over here right there he's right there and right off the camera and I'm never There's never too much there's always there's always a Yoda somewhere and life at one point or another so I am I am as they say a full blown full blown Star Wars geek. So when that came out anytime those kinds of really high quality fan films comes out I always interested in yours was one of the best I've ever seen but we're gonna get into we're gonna get into Kenobi in a bit but first questions dudes. Why God's green earth would you want to be in the film be a filmmaker Insane business sir.

Jason Satterlund 1:44
Same wonderful. Love it. You know what, I love this industry. I love it. I love making telling stories. I've always loved it ever since I was a kid. And I think you know, my story is probably similar to a lot of people where it's, I saw that one movie as a child, you know, and for me, it was close encounters. You know, when I saw those UFOs, you know, the police chasing UFOs down the freeway, I was so hooked. And from that moment forward, you know, when I was a kid, I wasn't allowed to watch movies. You know, I grew up in a very conservative Christian household where movies are bad and Hollywood is the lion's den. And it's don't go there, you lose your soul. My mom still says that. Anyway, I just the magic of Spielberg really captured me as a child and I would I would get to see the movie like once I couldn't go back and see it again. I would imagine it in my room I would just go in and like play the movie over and over my head and I just desperately wanted to be a part of that industry. You know, storytelling is just to see the the on an actor's face, you know, when the camera pushes in and and I just I couldn't I was a dog with a bone. I could not stop until I got there.

Alex Ferrari 2:57
Is there? Is there a filmmaker in modern history or in history of film at all? That has inspired more filmmakers and Steven Spielberg, right. I mean, I'm just I'm, I'm literally like, is there because you think back in a Kubrick IAM, of course, and Kurosawa, and then you can start, you know, you know, lien and all that stuff, but none of them were as popular. And as big as Spielberg made he is when you think directing, Spielberg is the name for our generation. Absolutely. Without question, is the name that pops up. And he's, I've no idea how many people have been on the show. It's amazing, that have been inspired, have inspired by Spielberg, and were mentioned a Spielberg movie that inspired them to become a filmmaker or had the chance to work with them. And, and tell me the stories of how, how they like these insane stories of Spielberg, you know, coming in and working with them. And I said this on the show so many times, he has touched so many filmmakers, personally, like, literally made a phone call and sent a letter who opened the door, gave an opportunity to hundreds of 1000s of filmmakers, let alone people from behind scenes as well over the course of his career. I don't think there's been a more influential filmmaker in the history of cinema. That's just my opinion.

Jason Satterlund 4:22
I think you're right. I mean, the amount of people that I know I mean, the amount of people I have met that are just inspired to do movies because of Jurassic Park. Like that was the one generation Well, I want to make

Alex Ferrari 4:35
Close Encounters Jaws et for me it was et I saw you t for the first time I was like,

Jason Satterlund 4:41
Raiders like who didn't watch raiders and when I want to make one of those like so yeah, that was 100% me as a kid and probably everyone listening is you know, has that film that pops into their brain more than likely a Spielberg film but I had a dad Get into it just now. And it was very difficult for me to get into it because I didn't know anybody but it just that. That magic that's created. I think Spielberg I think the reason why he inspires so much is because especially early Spielberg the golden age of Spielberg, you know, JAWS Ethan, he's a Raiders Last Crusade Jurassic Park. Like, there is a charm to his films that is very rare. You don't see it very often. Yeah, and it and you can create that they have the opportunity to actually build something that feels like that.

Alex Ferrari 5:37
Oh, my gosh, it's just No, it's It's, it's insane. I hope to have him on the show. One day, he is on my bucket list. He is on my bucket list. I'm putting it out into the universe. Everyone listening? Take a second right now. Put it down to get Spielberg on on the show on Alex's show, and I will ask him the questions you guys want me to ask him?

Jason Satterlund 5:59
I don't know him. But I'll make some calls.

Alex Ferrari 6:01
If anyone out there listening, you never know. Who knows? Maybe Steve is listening. I don't know. Wouldn't that be insane? Now, so look, as a director, I mean, I feel like you and I are of similar vintage. We've been we were we've we've we've walked across the same, you know, battlefields. And same, over the same. We have the shrapnel to prove it. What happens as a director when no one gives you have the opportunity to direct because unlike a writer, you can write, but a director, you need an opportunity, you need to do so many things to practice your art.

Jason Satterlund 6:39
So, yeah, that's a really well, it's a great question. And I don't know how much time we have. But I could talk about this a lot. Because it is the one job that's the hardest to get. It's far harder to get a directing job than an acting job, because there's just fewer of them. You know, when you look at you look on any filmmaking website, whether it's Mandy, or you know, where you look for jobs, rarely do you see need director needed, it's always crew. Right. And that's just sort of the nature of the beast, because the director is generally the one creating the project. And it's, you're, you're in a position where all other departments, right, so from producers, DPS, Aedes makeup, all of them get hired by directors or producers. That means and so you're working with your friends, but directors get hired by usually clients, or studios. So it's a different whole universe that you have to be connected to. So stream ly difficult to land directing jobs. And it's very, very difficult for me. And it was a real source of depression, anxiety, frustration for many, many years i i lived in. I grew up in Portland, Oregon, I lived in Nashville, I moved to Nashville when I was in my 20s to pursue filmmaking. I don't know why I didn't go to LA, probably because I don't know why. Because my mom told me it was dangerous there. So I was probably I think that's why I was too afraid. I went to Nashville and could not get. I mean, I wanted to be a director, but who was I? I didn't, I didn't know anything. I didn't know anyone. And I ended up in like doing music videos. Because Nashville's Music City, right? So I worked in music videos as a PA and all sorts of different jobs. And I ended up in corporate work. And, you know, when you're in corporate work, you're shooting like an instructional video or a live event. And I would do hours of this stuff. And still, it's not directing, right? It's not, I might maybe get a chance to do a little short. But the biggest opportunity I got is I wrote a script called searching for winter. And I met a business guy, because you know, that's what you need. You need the business guy to help you get some money to get your film made, right? So I do the I make the script, this business guy liked the script, and he said, I'll help you, like, raise the money. So he gave me a little bit of money. And we shot a little trailer for it. And so excited in the trailer. I mean, it came out pretty well, you know, considering it's however long ago it was. And nobody wanted to touch it. Everybody looked at it and like Yeah, that's cool. Like, but you've never made a movie before. So how am I supposed to know that you can actually make a movie. And that was really devastating because I could show them all the car commercials I've done and music videos like look at this. Isn't this cool? Yeah, but it's not a movie. So that was really disheartening for me. And I kicked around for a long, long time. And finally I realized one day well, okay, if no one's gonna give me the opportunity, I have to make it. So I sat down and wrote up. I wrote a script around the assets that I had access to things that I knew I could do, like I knew how to shoot underwater. And I knew, you know, I noticed dunk guy. And you know, I knew I had some friends in the industry. So I wrote a script kind of using some of those assets. I set out to raise $40,000 I raised 12. That's how much I suck at raising money. So I

Alex Ferrari 10:15
I'm gonna stop you there, right there. So you raise $12,000 For a movie. That's a frickin win my friend. Just because you went for 40 You only got 12 you get over 25% of your budget as a filmmaker. Come on, dude.

Jason Satterlund 10:33
Yeah, it was. It's funny, because this film. It's probably the most proudest accomplishments I've ever done in my life. Because I had no help. Really, the actors didn't really want to be in it. The DP was a really close friend of mine. I kid you not his first comment when I said, I'm just going to make a movie. I just want to make one his first comment to me. He was like my best friend. He's like, I just don't want to make any more crappy movies. Like, Oh, thanks. Wow, thanks. I appreciate that. So I repeated myself. So I had three film interns to two full sail graduates and one guy who just yet full sail. And one guy who just wanted to be in the movie business. They were basically my crew. I had this stunt guy friend of mine and his wife. And that was it. And I shot for six straight weeks over Christmas and shot this thing. We had two underwater sequences, we did mob scenes, we car chases, and all kinds of crazy stuff. And I actually put myself in the hospital from exhaustion. I, I ended up passing out at one point and from I think a panic attacks, probably what it was, oh, yeah, yeah, I've had those. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it. But I did it. I got it across the line. And it was, it really changed a lot for me, essentially, I mean, going back to your initial question, how do you get hired, I just had to invent defend myself, I just had to go out and make it happen. And I did. Now the film never went anywhere, but I at least was able to plant that flag. And I do think that doing the first one helped kind of unlock the dam for future things. Because now I'm a feature film director, I can say that, and no one can take that from me. You might watch the film and say it sucks. Because you can't take the fact that I made a movie. And that's it was a real source of pride.

Alex Ferrari 12:29
I'll tell you what, man, it's exactly what happened to me. I took it took me years before I had the the, I guess the the courage to actually go make a film, I had the skill set probably 20 years prior 15 years prior. But it took me a while before I jumped on that board in this second I did it. I it just opened up the dough, like okay, um, I proved it to myself, I proved that to myself that I could tell a story that looked decent, a shot at myself shot and then eight days, you know, it was a small little film. But we sold it to Hulu. Nice. You sold it internationally and had a really great cast. And it was done in LA and we you know, pulled a bunch of friends together, we made it happen. But you had to kind of go out there and just do it. And I think it's also the idea. And I've said this on the show many times about the the this lottery ticket mentality that we have as filmmakers going like, if it's going to be our first feature has to be Reservoir Dogs, or it has to be JAWS or it has to be, you know, you know, whatever Memento or whatever that film is, that's going to blow us up as a director. And that's generally not, that doesn't happen for most directors.

Jason Satterlund 13:35
Well, there's a reason for that. I think that every filmmaking book that you read, I mean, we've all read Rebel Without a crew and and Kevin Smith's book. I forget the title offhand. But like all those, you know, when they talk about the story of their life, we are kind of sold the dream that we will be cherry picked from obscurity and placed on high into the upper echelon of work and most books are written kind of from that framework. Most How To books about moviemaking are built like that, like you're gonna make, I saw an interview with the Duplass brothers. And I basically laid out just like, you make your first movie, it's gonna get into Sundance or some big festival. From there, you're gonna get a bigger actor interested in your film. From there, you're gonna get the bigger film. Yeah, but what if your first film doesn't get into Sundance? What if it doesn't? What if the only festival it gets into is the Cedar Rapids Film Festival in Iowa? And then that's it, like, how do you then function so this we're all hanging on to the dream that we are that special person that will get cherry picked? And it's not impossible. It still happens like it does happen, which is part of the allure. But that but 90% of us that doesn't happen to it's 99.9% of us.

Alex Ferrari 14:55
It doesn't happen. It's the lights I call it a lottery ticket mentality. Do people win the lottery every day? In Absolutely, the bulk of the people who play the lottery don't win. And that is the mentality that were stuck with. I agree with you 110%. And by the way that do plus example, they shot a movie for $3, which was DV tape called forgot something. What about an answering machine? Dude, that guy was destined. Those guys were destined that just like you look at those stories, and I've studied all of them. And I've had some of those filmmakers on the show. And ask them the questions I got it just kind of worked out. Like they had no indication that a movie about a guy leaving a message on an answering machine for an ex girlfriend shot horribly, to their to their own, they've set it to shut horribly, got into Sundance, and then that kind of led into right, all these other dominoes falling. But you can't live your life like that. You just got to do it.

Jason Satterlund 15:52
We're all we're all we've all been told this. We're all believe this. And I want to make sure that it doesn't come off that I'm trashing the people that this happens to because oh for that, because that's great, like Kevin Smith, if his film had not been seen by Weinstein, like, we wouldn't know who he is today, like, a good for him. I mean, he does these people that make it and and succeed and continue succeeding, they do the work, they've honed their skills, these are talented people. But you know, the majority of the people working that didn't happen to that that Cinderella story. I think it's important to just understand that because I think especially those who don't live in Hollywood, don't live in LA. They're living in Toledo or something, and they're hanging on to that dream that that will happen to them from there. It does happen. I mean, the guy from the guy that directed Shazam, I forget the director's name.

Alex Ferrari 16:47
But David Sandberg I had him on the show. Yeah, his short films

Jason Satterlund 16:52
Exactly the same. He was in Sweden, boom, picked from on high

Alex Ferrari 16:56
Literally told me the whole story. It was fascinating to hear this story. And he's like, yeah, and then I was flown over. And I, we were in LA, and me and my girlfriend didn't know, we didn't know what to do. And, and they were putting us they put us up in a house, it's the lottery. It's literally a lottery ticket, you could be

Jason Satterlund 17:14
And that's what we are hoping for. That's what we all dream that will happen to us. But I do think there is a it's really important to get grounded and understand that it might be a little bit longer of a slog, just a bit. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think myself, I'm kind of glad that my first film didn't blow up like that. Because, you know, I didn't know a whole lot back then. Man, I would have been like 25, if that film had blown up, and the amount of times I would have shot myself in the foot just because I'm so young and immature, and didn't know how to deal with people. Because film directing is very much about managing a large group of people and worrying for the biggest client you can imagine. So there is a maturity. That's, I think, very important with that.

Alex Ferrari 18:10
Yeah, I mean, there's no question about it, man, no question about it. Now, you you've, you've gone down, I was looking at your filmography, and you've done a tremendous amount of shorts, you've really kind of dug into shorts a bit. What is the value of making short films? I mean, obviously, other than the lottery ticket idea, which I did that multiple times in my career, but you've really went all in, and we'll talk about the fan films in a minute that you did that short, specifically, what was your value in that you think?

Jason Satterlund 18:40
Well, it's it's interesting, because there's, it's kind of a two prong thing that happened to me personally. For one thing, shorts are not going to make you money. For the most part, I mean, yes, sometimes they'll get bought and put as a package to something but generally that you're not going to get make money from that. You might get noticed from that. That's sort of what we hope. But really shorts as what it boils down to is practice. It's just let me put shoot something and put it out there and see how an audience reacts to it. It's and it's, I think it's vital for everyone to do. I had a really interesting journey, though, because I was doing shorts just like we all do. And it took a lot of work and a lot of effort. But I reached a point in my career, where I had done one movie I was doing, like I said, a lot of corporate work, live corporate work, and I was I found myself being exceedingly depressed and anxious and I was F realized I was very angry a lot. Where I would be I was literally the guy in the platform in the middle of the audience, shooting a speaker walking left and walking right across the stage. And oftentimes, you know, it's a TN T 's annual convention and he's giving the report of Have the annual sales blood riveting riveting stuff revenue. Yeah, eight o'clock in the morning, you're in a suit and tie and you're doing and I'm up there so angry. I'm like, almost in tears like just, this is not where I thought I'd be at 29 or 30, or whatever. I don't even remember what age

Alex Ferrari 20:18
But like you just use but you but you did use the Spielberg analogy, right? Like Spielberg made Jaws at 27.

Jason Satterlund 20:22
That's right. And that we have all these stories that we're continually comparing ourselves to, like, if I'm not doing what Spielberg did at x age than I am a failure as a person I like and wait, that, and I was exactly trapped in that spiral. And it is a terrible spiral to get caught in. And most people I know, struggle with this. And I found myself very bitter, very angry. And just just this twisted up person, and I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be because no one wants to be around that person. That is not a source of creativity. There's a there's a book I would highly recommend people read called The Happiness Advantage. It's the study of joy. Yeah, so this is study of joy. And in that book, they talk about where if you encounter a problem, let's just say that, let's say you got an edit. And the edit is an actor that wasn't very good. And you have to try to make this work with a bad performance. And if you approach that job with man, I can't believe I have to work with this crappy actor and I can't believe that this is my job and poo poo poo wag this bad pessimistic view versus All right. What do you got for me today after I'm gonna make you look like a frickin rock star? You know, really an optimistic approach to it the problem still the same, but you're approaching it from an optimistic versus a pessimistic mindset. They have done studies where they will attach electrodes to the brain and if you approach that problem, optimistically, your mind is 30% more active 30% pessimism literally shuts your mind off. So that as you get angry and twisted and frustrated, it is killing your creativity. It is these are this is scientifically proven. And I'm finding myself in that same position. And one day I was watching the movie Jurassic Park. And you remember in Jurassic, this is so funny to me, because Jurassic Park, how old is this movie? 30 years?

Alex Ferrari 22:30
93 93 Yeah.

Jason Satterlund 22:32
Okay, so do you remember the scene in Jurassic Park where all the characters are sitting in the little ride? Right in the little, they're getting introduced to the park and they're all inside that theater, and had a little cartoon comes up. This is dyno DNA. Yeah, this movie is 30 years old. And everyone remembers the same, which I'm gonna come back to in a second. And the little cartoon says, This is how you make dinosaurs. Sometimes the mosquito gets stuck in the staff that the staff turns to Amber, we extracted that data and suddenly you have done Oh, DNA, right? That whole scene. That scene is a corporate instructional video, which is exactly the kind of videos I was creating. Do you think when Spielberg went to make that part in his movie, that he pissed and moaned and wind that he has to make a corporate video? Or did he go oh, man, how can I make this thing really cool? How can I make this thing like memorable and fun, and it's the scene in a 30 year old movie that everyone remembers. It is the it is absolutely vital to understand how that movie works. It's the informational piece. Anytime you have a sci fi piece, a time travel movie, there's always a scene where you have to describe the way the mechanics work. That's a corporate video. So here I was. And I suddenly had to select the Epiphany, like, wow, what if I approached my work that I'm getting hired to do in the same exact way? What if I just pretended that this video about how to make car seats? And I just thought about it, like, maybe this is part of a bigger movie, that this is just one little piece of it? It didn't really change much in the way that I shot it necessarily. But well, actually, no, I take that back. It did. I started thinking about how can I make this look more cinematic? How can I move the camera in a way that I would do for my movie? How can I craft the script, so it really pulls the audience in and makes them engaged? I'm telling you, man, everything changed for me in that moment. Everything changed. So I was doing shorts. I had made a movie and then all of a sudden the clients started looking at the little videos I was making and went you know, this feels different than the other videos I'm seeing. Can we hire you to do a short and I have made quite a career out of making shorts for corporations. I just finished one about a month ago. We shot a 20 minute long, epic Roman soldier story about a plague that hit Rome in about 200 ad. And it was essentially the story was about the first hospital that was born, and how it was made. And it was freaking amazing. Like we had a big budget, great actors, we had a full, you know, full on set, we shot in Texas. And we had this really cool middle eastern style we can set and it was so much fun, so much fun. And

Alex Ferrari 25:35
Yeah, so if I can, if I can unpack a little bit of what you're saying here, because I think it's something really valuable for everyone listening, your perspective and your attitude change. definitely change the course of your career. Because if it was, and how many of us know the angry and bitter filmmaker, how many of us know that. And I always tell people anytime I do, anytime I talk in front of people I go, how many people here know an angry and bitter filmmaker and a bunch of people hands right up, if you didn't raise your hand up. You are the angry and bitter filmmaker that everybody else knows. So if you change your perspective on how you approach things, that comes through in the work, and that's exactly what happened to you. And we can't get stuck in this idea that we're all going to be a Spielberg or Fincher or Nolan or Tarantino or Kubrick you, you can't get that stuck. If you stuck. That way, you'll never be able to move. If you wake up every morning going, I need to be as good as Steven Spielberg. You're never going to pick up a camera. Because you're talking about a master, you've got to be the best version of yourself. And I think that's what you did. And then you carved out this beautiful little niche for yourself.

Jason Satterlund 26:49
Yeah, it's been it's been amazing. And you know, when I'm on set doing that stuff? Is it a big Academy Award winning film? No. Am I having the time of my life? Yes, that's, and that's not saying that none of that other stuff ever will happen. I believe that it still will. It's not that you have to let go of your dream. Because here's the big thing that will happen. And I think this is so important. My my flag that I will waive here is that our number one goal, as artists, the number one thing that you have to fight to protect is your mental state, your the way you think about your approach to art, because it your your anxiety that comes up, because we live in a business that is undulating, it's constantly moving, it's you get really busy for a season, and then it crashes to a halt. Sometimes it's the nature of what we do. And I don't care if you've been working for two years straight or two months straight, the minute that work stops, the anxiety begins. And it's usually the same kind of questions. Crap, I hope I work again, you know, I hope I booked another job and that desperate. Think about it like dating, like if you are sitting there going, Gosh, I really wish I was married. I really, really want a wife. I just wish someone would love me go on a date and see how far that gets you that desperate, anxious energy, your partner I mean, imagine being on a date with that person, you're like,

Alex Ferrari 28:12
Oh, Rome, the aromas in the air. It's like yes, like bad your car.

Jason Satterlund 28:18
That's the energy that you're projecting if you don't really carefully watch the mental state that you're in. And another thing a second piece of this is, once I started, you know, the car seat analogy that I used before making a car, this is how you install a car seat into a Mercedes. Well, if you approach that, like, Alright, I'm going to be imagine this as part of my movie. Suddenly, a really interesting thing happens and it happened to me, I start having fun, I start it brings this level of joy to the work. And I think that's a vital because if we don't allow that to happen, and I don't care if you're shooting a wedding video, or a corporate interview with a CEO, if you don't find a way to bring that joy to your work, all you're doing is postponing your joy to somewhere down the line. You're going to sit there and go, I am not going to allow myself to be happy until I get whatever it is that you defined that Universal Studios movie or the Marvel film. I'm going to sit here and be miserable until I get there. All you're doing is setting yourself up for complete disappointment and frustration and you're going to be you're going to become that twisted person that you don't want to be. I think it's so important to think about this.

Alex Ferrari 29:35
Do you know the story of how James James Cameron got his first shot as a director? I do not. So he was working for Roger Corman as a props guy. And he was doing a really bad Roger Corman film back then. And he was like just shooting I think second unit. They gave him like a shot. A shot of maggots. like coming out of some sort of meat. That was it was an insert shot, which is the equivalent of a car seat. It's the equivalent of the car seat analogy that you gave. But Jim was so excited about doing that shot had such great energy that he was trying to make this be the best maggots coming out of meat shot in movie history. This is the way he was looking at it. So what did he do? He was doing something that Roger Corman was walking behind, and he just saw this kid. And then he would turn the camera on and he would give he would he was doing something that made the magnets dance. Ah. Oh, yeah. Electric. Yeah. Great. So so he turns the camera off, and then they stop. And Roger Corman is like if this kid could direct magnets, I'm gonna give him a movie. And he what he was doing was he's sending electrical shots through the sheath through the the meat. So they would just does it and then we just go down. So that was what he was doing. And then he got Parana to the spawning the greatest flying Parana film ever made.

But that was, but look at the look at that example. And look at the career that James can imagine if he would have just said, Man, I gotta shoot. Yeah, I guess I don't want to do that. I want to be making a movie I don't want to be. But I don't want to be doing that. Yeah, who wants to be doing that shot? But he did me super excited about it.

Jason Satterlund 31:30
It's, well think about if you were in charge, looking for a director. And if there was someone who was saying your words, would you hire you? Would you want that energy on your set? I you know, if I'm, if I'm watching the guy doing that same shot, and I see him smiling, and he's just having fun with it. You know, hey, that's the kind of energy that that's that's an optimistic kind of approach. I think there's also this weird it's sort of this unspoken law in film, where there's legitimate and illegitimate kind of work. And I think a lot of us look at every single book written is written towards the upper echelon of Hollywood where we that's where we want to work, we want to work way up here and everything between point A and point B is somehow illegitimate. It's look down your nose at the whatever you call it, you know, the wedding video or instructional videos somehow that's just not. Right,

Alex Ferrari 32:28
Right. And I'll tell you what I had. I had a director on the show years ago. And he has directed over 100 features around features he's made. And he's done a lot of Hallmark and Lifetime movies. He does three to four movies a year. He's been doing it for 30 years, like he's just pounding it, pounding it 345 movies a year. And I was talking, we had a serious conversation. I go, You know what, if anyone has a problem with the kind of filmmaking you're doing, tell them to go screw off, dude. Because you're living the life you're being paid to direct. You have a good life. You live in Los Angeles, you get to fly out to exotic locations and gets directly make the movies you're making. Who gives a crap or what anyone else says? Because a lot of people were like, Oh, he just makes Lifetime movies. Screw off. He's living his dream. If he's happy, what the hell? So like, I would guarantee like most people listening would kill for a career like that, you know? Because we all want to do Jurassic Park man, who does it? You know, I mean, Fincher wants to be Kubrick. Nolan wants to be Kubrick. Spielberg wanted to be Kurosawa. Lucas wanted to be Kurosawa. Coppola wanted to be cooler, or Sawa. Like everybody wants to be something they're not until they figure out oh, I'm going to be the best version of me. And that's greatness happens.

Jason Satterlund 33:44
Yeah, it doesn't mean you let go of any that dream. All it means is, I'm just going to enjoy this what I've got right now. And, you know, are you in your little corporate? Let's say you're doing a corporate training film? Are you not working with a camera? Well, yes, I am. Are you not working with an actor? Actually, we cast for this and there's a subject in front of me doing the thing? Are you not working with a makeup artist or a DP? Like, you're all the elements? It's the same mechanics are there what you're getting to do is someone's paying you to practice your craft you're getting, and now you're not gonna like, if it doesn't work, who cares? It's just an instructional video about how to install a car seat. Big deal if

Alex Ferrari 34:23
You're but if you're directing Tom Cruise, and it doesn't work, you're done. Right! Exactly.

Jason Satterlund 34:28
You get to work out all these kinks along the way, before you actually get there and that there's a real joy in that a real freedom in that and it's,

Alex Ferrari 34:37
I agree with you 100%. Brother. Now there's, there's a, you know, one of the big things that you've did was you've done a couple of two or three fan films that have been very well received. The first question when you reached out to me was like, I have to ask him this. I have to ask because I've been dying to find out because there's fan films that get made all the time. You know, and fan you know, there's like Star Wars fan films and Ghostbuster fan films and so many different types of anthems. And sometimes, you know, the copyright holders are not as friendly, let's say as Lucas Films is now from what I understand Lucas Films has been, has a very open, loving relationship with the fans and fan films and encourages them. But with that said that was before the mouse bottom. And secondly, how do you dance the line between copyright and fandom? Yeah, just something that so many filmmakers out there would maybe want to make a Star Wars project because I've been involved with with with shorts and the post world that the copyright holder said stop it. or We're suing. Yeah. So how did you dance that line? And did you and by the way, did the mouse did the mouse call?

Jason Satterlund 35:46
No, they did not. So there are certain IPs that exist, you're exactly right. There's certain IPs that exists where they are very cool. With people making fan films, the biggest rule is you just can't make money on it. If you start trying to charge for views or something. That's where you'll get in trouble. Star Wars is one of those. In fact, they even have a contest. For the best fan film, I don't know if they still do it. But back when, when for The Force Awakens came out there was a big fan film contest that I think JJ Abrams even was like, hey, send us Your great fan film. They even had music on their website that you could download and use in your film and stuff like that. So they're very encouraging to filmmakers. And that all came from George Lucas. Video games are the same. They're usually very open welcoming to IP. But there are other IPs that are not you should do your research if you're going to do and I think one of those is Doctor Who I don't think that they take too kindly to other people making fan films about Doctor Who I think Harry Potter, they're open to it, you just kind of have to, it's a weird thing.

Alex Ferrari 36:55
BC kind of comes and goes depending on what they want to do. And a very famous idea, the very famous case was Star Trek when they that would have been very, very cool for most of, of its life of the IP it had been very cool for with with fan films, but then the but then they they went too far. They raised like $1.5 million for a fan film. And it was going to be this feature length fan film and it was like one and then that's when Paramount's like okay? Yeah. And they're now there's rules. So they actually had to lay out like a rule set for film people like you can't make it this much money. They're not because it got too big. It got too big the fandom got too big. Because now you have no control over the IP. It's one thing to do a 20 30,000 Maybe even 50 $100,000 you no fan film, but when you're making a $1.5 million fan film, the danger of things going awry becomes exponentially more.

Jason Satterlund 37:50
Yeah, you just you just have to be careful. And before you shoot anything, you should probably make sure before you go through all this effort that you don't end up with a million dollar home movie. Like you want to make sure people actually there's good, go ahead. Go ahead.

Alex Ferrari 38:06
No, there was a there was a filmmaker I had on the show who made a infamous Punisher Oh, really an infamous Punisher fan film. That was like, handed around the comic cons and people were like, but it was so violent. It was I think it was Punisher Wolverine, I think or something. It was like really a badass Punisher, Punisher led fan film, but then Marvel called them. And I think that and then said, That's No. And he had to pull it off. And I asked him like, is it exist? It's like, no, no, I've burned all the copies. Yeah. If you're not if you're not watching the interview, my eyes did a little shifty thing. But I'm like, you know, can I see it? And he's like, I doesn't exist, Alex. So you got to be careful with fantasize always fascinated with fan films. Now you did a fan film. Your first Star Wars fan film without mistake is the force in the fury, which I'm going to put links to all these on in the show notes of the show. And I tell everybody, if you're interested, watch it. It is fascinating to see a well produced fan film of Star Wars. Because there's so many bad ones. There's just so many. Yeah, there's really a lot of bad ones. But this was so beautiful, because you did something that was really interesting. And that's short that you use the environment, which was low cost was like a forest. But it looks so beautiful. And the production value looks so big. It was basically just two people fighting the historic battle inside of of the forest, but the quality of the imagery and the color grading and everything was so solid. So it was so beautiful. How was that film received? Because I was the first big Star Wars fan for me.

Jason Satterlund 39:53
Yeah, well, I did. So I've done three fan films. The first one I ever do is for Splinter Cell Games. So it's called playstyle extraction. So this was my second attempt at doing a fan film. And yeah, it, it did quite well, people really liked it.

Alex Ferrari 40:09
And it didn't do anything for you like on a career standpoint,

Jason Satterlund 40:13
I will say that what it did was grease the wheels. So it didn't necessarily get me in a room, but it got the door open at least. And here's the reason why you do a fan film. I mean, yes, it's fun to play with lightsabers. Of course. That goes without saying, sir. Yes, it's really fun to play in these universes. But the real reason is, you know, if you think about it, you make a short hay, and you get it done. And you're telling your people about it, like, oh, I made the short film. So it's about a guy who doesn't know who he is. But he realizes he's got wings. And he starts to think maybe he's an angel or whatever, you know, I'm just spitballing. But like, and the people listening are like, uh, huh, yeah, cool. Cool. What's the name of it? Oh, it's called a job well done, or whatever. And, and then the next question is always, how long is it? So basically, my point is, you have to talk people into watching, you're short. You're trying to sell it all the time, right? Yeah, your mom's gonna see it. And of course, she's gonna love it. And your all your friends will watch it, you know, I'd be a little premiere. But then beyond that, you're going to have to try to talk everyone else into watching it. Unless it's just so phenomenal. It catches fire and spreads the world. Great, good for you. Or you go. So I made a Star Wars film. Generally the reaction is really, what's it called? On until we're gonna check this out. My cousin loves Star Wars. My mom, let's start we're gonna do the check. That's the difference. The most views I ever got on any short that I ever did was like 20,000 views, 30,000 views. I haven't looked lately to see what force and fury is up to. But it's in the hundreds of 1000s

Alex Ferrari 41:51
I believe 453,000

Jason Satterlund 41:55
And I, I've barely promoted it, like, boom, it's just like everywhere. Kenobi when we did Kenobi that hit a million views in 24 hours. And that's why you do those like because your work and the whole name of the game is to get your work seen, right? You want people to say, oh, this person knows what they're doing. You do a fan film it just more eyeballs watching what you're doing.

Alex Ferrari 42:18
I mean, one of the most famous fan film stories of all time is the Mortal Kombat one, which was done by John. He did the movie Fame, which, okay, I had a miserable death at the box office. And he was pretty much going to be thrown into director jail. I forgot his name is John something I forgot his last name. But he was already he's like, I'm done. I'm done. It's over. I no one's gonna hire me. So he's like, You know what, I'm gonna make a mortal kombat fan film. And he made a such a good Mortal Kombat fan film, that the rights holders hired him to do a web series of it. And then that turned into the feature version of it. And now they're making the sequel of the feature. all started with a fan film. Now he wasn't established director. So he wasn't an unknown quantity. But he took a shot because he had no other choice. He's like, I'm done. He made fame. And I mean, it died. It was like, it's almost as bad as almost as bad as gem in the holograms. When I showed up, it just died. It was dead on arrival. So he that's how he made it and that and then he just dumped it. He just dumped it into the, into the internet. And people lost their mind because it was really cool. It was like basically a violent, cool version of Mortal Kombat with backstory and story arcs. And he went all in. So that's a really famous version of it's I think, that's another thing that filmmakers have a dream of, is when they make they make a Star Wars fan film. And they all want Catherine Kennedy to call them up or John. John favorite to call them up and go, Look, man, I saw your fan film, I'd love you to do an episode of demand DeLorean? We all that's the now the new dream of doing a fan film. Yeah, that hasn't happened to my understanding yet.

Jason Satterlund 44:05
Well, I know that people have seen it. I know it made the rounds at Disney. I know that we actually ended up on Steven Soderbergh put out a list of films that he watched. Whatever year we put that out, I don't remember off top my head, but it was on his list. It actually got me on the cover of The New York Times, which is pretty great. So like, it did get a lot of mileage. Yeah. And you know, that's not to say that the life is over. Like it may come up, but it's all but it has helped get me in the room.

Alex Ferrari 44:36
Because there was a guy who made this car this beautiful short, this is back in the day. 2008 2005 2006 He made Batman versus the predator versus alien. Oh, yeah, that one. I forgot. I forgot his name. He he is so talented, but yet never could get farther than where he went with those things was interesting to me. I always always found that interesting because it was like he's obviously super talented. And he did. He did a few of those. But there was also the timing, I guess it was the timing of it all and things like that. But it didn't go any farther than that. So I'm glad to hear that these films have done good for you. And Oh, for sure. But look, Kenobi Kenobi has done 18 million views. I mean, 87 77 million, sorry. 87 million views. 80. Millions was the trailer for the Kenobi show. I just thought they were next to each other. But you had over 7 million views? For a short that, you know,

Jason Satterlund 45:42
Yeah. And it's been great. Because I know there have been situations where I want to meet somebody, you know, that I would like to connect to. This is Jason, he's done this, that and the other. He deleted and use a lot of times they've seen it. Like, holy crap, you did that? Oh, what what was your name? Jason. So it's, it hasn't necessarily like, I haven't gotten a call from on high. But it has like, opened the door helped grease those wheels. So I would say it was absolutely worth doing. And even if nothing ever happened from it, the people I met on it and the connections I was made through that was really good. Jamie Costa being one of them, who is you know, he's become a close friend. And he's, you know, very successful actor and things like that. So, you know, that's another reason why you do these things, is to like, you know, you're just trying to make as many friends as you can.

Alex Ferrari 46:36
Yeah, and I think that's one of the things one of the reasons I want to jump in and show is to kind of demystify the fan film. And also demystify what you should expect out of a fan film, if you're gonna go down that road. And I love your approach to it, because it's a very practical approach. Hey, man, I get to go play with lightsabers and skirmish repairs, and have a good time and playing. And you came out with Kenobi before they came out with this. So that was, that was pretty awesome. You know,

Jason Satterlund 47:04
We were on set filming when they announced when they announced that they were going to do it.

Alex Ferrari 47:09
That's so cool. Oh,

Jason Satterlund 47:11
We gotta hurry up finish filming.

Alex Ferrari 47:15
Yeah, cuz then I wouldn't be like it would be the same. You better hurry up and get it out there fast.

Jason Satterlund 47:20
Obviously Yeah, if you're gonna do it. First of all, like I said, it's exactly that comparison of like, if you're gonna make a short a fan film was a really good option. A lot of people will watch it if they're fans it same thing with Splinter Cell like people just really like Splinter Cell, they're gonna watch it. I just met somebody recently who said, Dude, I used to work at Ubisoft when Splinter Cell came out, we all loved that film, we were hoping you'd put another one out, you know, it will get eyeballs, they will help you a lot. But but if you're going to, let's say you're gonna make a Star Wars film, make sure that you do it with love and do it with quality, like make sure that you're filling a gap that the audience needs. Don't have Jedi as be for example, I don't want to make a Jedi be an assassin. Because that's just an understanding. You don't understand what the Jedi are. They are not attackers. They are defenders. They are you know, they're monastic. You know, people, they're more about peace. So understand the lore. Because you'll get crucified the audience. Oh my god, could you imagine what people see that stuff is sacred, you know, their precious Star Wars. So like, come at it with that and make sure you know, if you don't understand the lore, get someone who does to help you with the script so that you can really embed it. And it can be a beautiful thing. Beautiful thing if you do it

Alex Ferrari 48:43
Right. Now, I'm going to give you I'm going to ask you a question a little geek fandom. trivia question. What was the first Star Wars fan film?

Jason Satterlund 48:54
Was it troops? Yeah, it was a truth.

Alex Ferrari 49:02
If you can find an SD version of it somewhere on the internet troops was the first time anyone to my understanding or knowledge, took the Star Wars universe and made a fan film from it. And it was basically it was following Storm Troopers on the kind of like cops follows cops. Yeah. As it was. And it was like all about and it was it was a domestic disturbance at Yeah, uncle, Uncle Ben's. And there was late and then there was so funny and hilarious. And that thing. That was what early godmen that must have been a long one. 2002

Jason Satterlund 49:42
I think before that, I think it was like the late 90s

Alex Ferrari 49:45
No, no, it was late 90s. It was the internet. So the internet hadn't really kicked into the good points. So it was probably late 90s And I remember seeing like a thumb like a postage stamp version of it on. Wasn't even quick time I think was flash. Oh Um, you know, playing on the internet and everyone was just like, oh my god, I was like, oh so funny. But that is for everyone. If you curious to see an amazing fanfic those lightsabers no lights it because it couldn't do the visual effects back then. So they just had a bunch of Stormtroopers out there. And it was brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. So when you were making Kenobi man, because it was so well put together, and beautifully shot and I mean, there was there's some complexity to the action sequences and things like that. I gotta ask, there's always that day on set, and I asked a lot of us, there's always that day on set generally is almost every day. But there's one specific day that everything's gone wrong. Worlds coming down crashing around you, and you're making a fan film with no expectations to ever make $1 from it. So now, it's just like, This is pure love, and things aren't going right. What was the worst day of that? Well, and how did you get through it

Jason Satterlund 50:58
Every day was pretty much a disaster on Kenobi. And I know this isn't against any people, like, people were great. We're in the desert. So in a positive side, like Jamie and I worked tirelessly on the script, to like really make sure that we understood who Konami was and we understood this whole planet and where he was in his spiritual journey as a most all that stuff. So when we got to sit there was very little conversation needed because we'd already gone through he was dialed into that character data that it up, but so we shot in two separate locations. One was in Odessa caves, I think it's called Odessa caves. And that went okay, except it was a night shoot and then complicated. And then we went to a place called trona pinnacles which is kind of Near Death Valley. And so we're shooting out there in the middle of the desert with stormtroopers and those helmets, they can't see anything below. Like if you were to take your fingers and put them below your eyes. You can't see your feet. That's what it's like to wear those helmets. They also can't sit down because of the way the armors sits on the body. So they just to like walk around. It's really cumbersome for those guys. Day one, we had wind gusts up to 3040 miles an hour. You we had our props truck got into a car accident on the way to set so we had no landspeeder we didn't have the moisture evaporator. We didn't have anything. We had no set. We had the actors, we had to costume so I was trying to direct the I was basically I had to start backwards to start with insert shots of like, I have no set to shoot on and I've got the winds were blowing so high that I could barely record dialogue. So I had to shoot all these extra pieces. It was the biggest jigsaw puzzle it was so hard. So like the there's a shot where all the stormtroopers come up over this hill and and James Arnold Taylor, sidenote, who is the voice of Obi Wan Kenobi and all the cartoons, comes up on over the hill and he says, oh, and baru greetings on behalf on behalf of the Empire. That scene. It was I have a behind the scenes on my phone. It was. I mean, the wind was just blowing, blowing and blowing. And the stormtroopers kept tripping over rocks and boulders and stuff because they could not see and they're trying to stay in formation. Oh my gosh, you must have shot that 15 times. Try to get that right. The second day. The wind died down and we had a set but then we had a child there. And Audi who played our little Luke preciouses, cutest little kid was just young enough to where he didn't quite understand. They were on it. We were making a movie. So to him, it's sort of like, playtime, pretend and you're having you surround him with these scary Stormtrooper outfits in the hot sweaty desert. He would cry and like we would do a couple takes you'd like it. And it was really challenging. And what kept happening was is we ended up causing, like, I just shoot a whole bunch with him and kept pushing our dialogue.

Alex Ferrari 54:18
You're stressing out as you're

Jason Satterlund 54:22
Oh, man, it was so hard. It kept pushing our dialogue scenes back because all these things that end up happening. So our dialogue, you're getting push, push, push, push, push until the fight sequence came up, and we had no time. So we literally so in the end of that film, he basically fights all the stormtroopers blinded. That's two takes. When we went to shoot that scene, the Sun we were in this bowl, the sun had already disappeared behind the bowl. So there was no sun. We had to run out. And we had to run out to this big open area we and the sun is sitting on the hill. right isn't sitting right there. And I'm like, we're gonna do a wide shot and a close up shot. And then we had the Steadicam operator just run around in a big circle. And there's a behind the scenes shot of, of the sound guy and everyone running as fast as they can like the arms of a clock around this whole lightsaber thing. People are dying to get out of the shot. And that was our entire battle. We shot in two separate takes, and it was like, and then boom, the sun goes below the horizon where you're just, we all just collapsed in a big heap. And we barely had enough to put the fights team barely had enough to put it together, but Well, we got it. Yes. Hair of our chinny chin chin.

Alex Ferrari 55:43
I love these. I love these stories, because you know, filmmakers who have not been able to make the first movie yet or even the first short. This is the reality of what directing is. Oh, yeah. It's all its compromised and problem solving. It's all compromise and problem solving. And by the way, it for everyone listening, it can happen at the level of making a fan film. And it can happen at the level of making a real Star Wars giant, big bunch of Star Wars movie. I've heard the stories they've been people. People go crazy. I had a director on the other day, who made you know, $200 million movie and they're like, Yeah, we were we were with the sun was going down. We had we only had that day with that stat action sequence. So we just shot the damn thing and a wide. And and we have two other cameras, and oh, no, that's that action sequence had seven cameras. When the moment came for the shot, only one two worked. While everything else was done,

Jason Satterlund 56:41
Yeah, that happens. It doesn't matter what the project is. It could be anything. But this is what you plan. This is the importance of planning of meticulous you no further than you even want to go. When I did my first film, the $12,000. One I couldn't throw money at my problems. So I had I went and measured every single location and put it on grid paper and how big each room was. And I could measure like Will it dolly track even fit in this hallway, or is it going to be a moot point so that I could really so when I got to the location, I knew exactly what I was gonna do, because problems, they just will happen. On my last feature the abandoned. We had to do a wartime sequence that opens with these two soldiers caught in a firefight. Well, first of all, we're shooting it's supposed to be at a rack. And we were shooting in Spokane, Washington surrounded by snow. So we had all this snow that we were trying to frame out, we had about four lights and a couple of flame bars and we're setting the scene up and the DP gets a migraine. And it's so bad that he can't stand up straight. And so our entire production grinds to a halt because he is just in agony and can barely hold his head up. By the time we got that fixed, we only had like two hours to get the whole thing. So the only way it worked was because he and I had very meticulously everything was storyboarded, we knew exactly what shots to get and what we needed to pull off of the action scene, the only way you'll get it done. And that's that holds true for every single project that you do. Plan more than you'll ever think you'll need to.

Alex Ferrari 58:23
Now, one last question I have in regards to the fan film brother, the VFX. Man, how did you get those done on a budget and make them look good on all of your all of your fan films because that's something that that's that's always the sticking point. And then if I may, if I may tell you just one little Star Wars fan film story, of course of one I was going to I wasn't going to do it. I was brought in as a VFX supervisor in 2006, I think I think six or seven I was called in because I had done a lot of visual effects on my my first short film that went did viral and did a whole bunch of good stuff for me. And, and this guy came in and he was absolutely mad. Like, he was so mad. In his mind. He was delusional. He was crazy. And he thought that he truly thought that George Lucas was going to come and give him a job. Like, it wasn't even. It wasn't even a thought in his mind that that wasn't going to happen. So they shows me this, like this thing that he's so proud of. And I'm looking at it and I'm like, It's okay, it's okay. It's fine. But then it's like I need you to get rid of all of these. These stunt guys, rig rig and all the cables, all the wiring and all the wiring and the green screen and stuff. But I'm like okay, this is 2006 Okay. 2006 So everyone listening 2006 V effects and capabilities at the budget level of an indie film. And there's no trackers

Jason Satterlund 59:57
Anywhere. Oh man.

Alex Ferrari 59:59
There's no track Think marks anywhere. And it would have to be hand painted, shot by shot in 2006 with 2006 technology, as far as processing power and everything today, it could be done. It'd be a pain, but it can be done much quicker, much easier than it wasn't. And I talked about did you hear it you useless you can't go anywhere with it. And then he's like, Oh, you just don't know what you're doing. And he went off and did it. And he wouldn't often try to get it done somewhere else. And I always wondered whatever happened to it. So a year later, I checked to see if it still wasn't finished. I don't even know if it ever got finished. But it was it was. So the delay, and I'm sure you've run into some delusional filmmakers along your path over the years, and it's sad to see that because we've all have like, we have to be a little delusional to do what we do. Yeah, to think that you could go on to make a Kenobi short film in the middle of the desert with a bunch of Stormtroopers and lightsaber battle. You gotta be a little insane. So there's that got to be a little great. But you got to be able to balance that off. So anyway, that was my little VFX story. So I have to ask, how did you get?

Jason Satterlund 1:01:04
So when it comes to VFX, I tried to be as practical as I possibly can. It doesn't matter if I'm doing because we, I approached my last feature the same way. So with, I've seen a lot of shorts and features that basically never get released. Because of the VFX. I have a friend who's working on a short right now. And they're trying to create this floating orb thing that is given him fits. Because, man, we got to shade it, right. So it looks organic in the scene, like it's, it's and there's like, you know, 50 shots with it in there, like it just grew exponentially grows, because they didn't really think about while they're filming, is there a way to do this where I don't have to make a VFX shot for every single shot. So I think it's really important to think about that. I try not to shoot green screen whenever I can. I try to do as much practical as I can. And if I know I'm going to need to map out whatever a ship flying by in the background, to try to incorporate in as much realism as I can. So here's a perfect example in Kenobi in the beginning of it, he's in a sandstorm. And every single person on the crew weirdly thought I was going to do that digitally. Which was like, why would I do you know we made that we had two leaf blowers and a bag of dirt and a couple of fans. And you're out the door? Well, yeah, like you just had we kind of staggered a couple of fans deeper into the shot so like they would continue to blow the dirt. We had used fuller's earth, it was really light and fluffy. We had a leaf blower right behind the camera blasting Jamie in the face. Wow. And he and I talked about this since like, it's really effective for him as an actor to like have the visceral wind blowing, he's just fighting against it. It really helped him and to keep his face safe. We just blew smoke into his face as opposed to dirt. So it had two layers to it. The dirts heavier the smoke is lighter. And that's it. And it became a I think a pretty realistic windstorm. So lightsabers are pretty easy to do to be honest. Your facts nowadays they are

Alex Ferrari 1:03:17
Yeah, yeah.

Jason Satterlund 1:03:18
Now I will say on forcing the theory. The crew is much smaller. And there is this moment in in the film. I think it's like five minutes and 46 seconds where I've didn't put the I think I missed it in the reflection of a piece of pane of glass. If you scroll through the comments of that video, like everyone's like, four to six, you missed the lightsaber, fake lame, like everybody's like, Oh, by the way you screwed up. Thanks. Thanks for letting me know like, it's it's hilarious asters jerks are not perfect. I know it's hard to really, lightsaber steps are pretty easy. But when you start to go beyond that, I would strive to be as practical as possible. In my feature, the abandoned we had to do some weightless stuff. We there's multiple sequences in the film. And the premise of the film is this guy trapped in this cube. So essentially a large 20 by 20 room. And at several points in the film, gravity starts to change and he gets thrown all around inside the box. We basically used every camera trick in the book to make that happen. We built sets on their side, we built them in V shapes, we had rotating boxes like Inception, we did wire work, we had a camera on what's called a lambda heads so that the camera could be tilted to the side. So when he's going sideways to the camera, it looks like he's flowing from top of the frame to the bottom of the frame. So like we did every kind of trick in the book. And it's crazy how some of those simple camera tricks actually will do huge favors for you. I would go there first when you're doing VFX look at what the camera can do for you, as opposed to this third Green screen up. And I figured out how to do it later that that usually is a recipe for problems

Alex Ferrari 1:05:06
Listen, I have a many good friends who work in the VFX VFX world. And they work on Marvel Movie Star Wars movies, Bond movies, and I've seen some of the shots that they get to clean up and I'm like these aren't these professionals? Aren't these professional filmmakers making these shots? Now like dude, and I'm talking about Oscar winning filmmakers, who just like, whatever, let them deal with it. And they do because they have the money to do so when you're making or making any film. You just can't do that.

Jason Satterlund 1:05:39
Yeah, if you're in a position where you can't throw money at your problems, try to find a way not to use the VFX. And I don't mean that you can't have the effect. Doesn't mean you can't use the explosion or something. But there are so many cool to go look at the original Dracula. Do you ever seen Dracula with the one that was started by Allah 92 So some of the stuff that he did, and that was practical was all magic tricks systems, the

Alex Ferrari 1:06:08
All of it was practical. Very,

Jason Satterlund 1:06:11
I mean, there's facts in there. I can't figure out how they did like when he turns into a demon thing and he backs up into the corner and you just see his eyes. And then the lights turn on and it's all rats. Like that's some sort of in camera trick that they did it is yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:06:24
I'm kind of an expert in that film because it was one of my favorite films growing theory as the criterion LaserDisc. So I discovered a lot of those. Cool. So just as like Kiana Reeves walks in to Dracula's castle for the first time. This is something so simple. This is Copalis genius. They do a close up shot of his foot crossing the threshold. They shot that in reverse. Oh, they did. And they just that that little hesitation. Just makes you go there's something wrong here. Something as simple as that. And then every other trick he did an old school like, you know from the silent era. He was using all sorts of in camera tricks, matte paintings. That's all he did a lot of hand crank over crank under crank reverse shots. He did every man if anybody wants to see how they how master shoots practically go watch Dracula, Bram Stoker's Dracula with Gary Oldman and went on a writer. Absolutely a masterpiece. Absolutely.

Jason Satterlund 1:07:27
Well, yeah, that's a perfect test. Yeah, that's perfect. Because I would say that's, that's the real key to making practical effects work. So when we didn't Kenobi there's a bunch of laser laser, blasters shooting glasses. laser guns. Wow, I just wow, that's not very Star Wars. The Stormtroopers are shooting blasters. Well, we didn't want to just do the blasters. What we had was we had a paintball gun with dust hits. So we're hitting the ground with actual dust hits. And then when you layer in the blaster shot, it just makes it feel more organic and the same. That is the key to making VFX work is seeing how much you can build on your own. And then the VFX just becomes a nice little polish to the top of it.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:17
So it's a it's a nice layer on the cake. Absolutely. That's same thing I did with my first short film, I use air airsoft guns that actually had blowback shot, I would do the muzzle flash digitally, and I would light up the scene. The guy's face in shake, so we'd light up to face and went but the gun was shooting off. Yeah, and it looked like a real gun. That was the thing I always got. So pissed off about indie films is like, the guns never had blowback. But when I found an airsoft gun, I was like, Oh, that's good. So if you could combine practical with with it, it's always the ethics and if you're smart, and you do it that way in, in, even in a big budget films, that's when things start looking really, really good was a movie that just came out that was well, I mean, I just saw the Bond film. The other day, they knew that no, no time to die. And you just are no no, I was that Top Gun. Yeah, practically all practical. And it just you could sense that you can feel it you can sense that it's something that you just can't do in the camera and digital effects.

Jason Satterlund 1:09:20
That it just it just has that visceral feel like yeah, no difference between Lord of the Rings in The Hobbit like it's

Alex Ferrari 1:09:27
Yeah, no question about it. Now tell me about the new film abandoned, man. How did you get that? How did you get that off the ground? How did you get the financing for it? All that kind of good stuff.

Jason Satterlund 1:09:37
So the abandoned Yeah, it was a really interesting story. So I met the writer at The Austin screenwriter Festival, which if you're a screenwriter, I cannot recommend that festival enough. It is probably one of the best festivals I've ever been to excellent panels and speakers and things like that. So I went there and I met Dwayne oreille. He was on a panel we became fast friends. And he sent me a script that it was one of those I sat down to read it. Thinking, I'll just read the opening scene and go to bed. I read the opening scene, I'm like, Whoa, this is this is really, really good. And I let me just read the next scene. Before I knew it, I'd finished the whole thing. I've never happens, read the script, front to back. I was blown away. And it the whole thing is essentially about a soldier who is in the middle of a firefight in Iraq, he gets hit with a bright light, and he wakes up in this room. That's like a prison cell with no doors, no windows, no exits, no furniture, nobody talks to me has no idea how we got there is all his weapons and equipment. And then things start getting weird. Writing starts appearing on the wall. And, you know, gravity starts to act odd and the room the temperature of the room starts to fluctuate really wildly from freezing, freezing cold to incredibly hot temperatures. And every time you think you know what's happening, it changes. And essentially, the whole premise of the movie is that he's he's got to try to escape. And the only person he can find help him is someone on the phone, who claims to be in identical room. And it's a big mystery from there. And it was an incredible script. And as you're reading it, it's like, this would be a great low budget film, because it's one actor in a room. How easy would that to be? Little did I know. But so I took it to a production company. And they immediately liked it. It was it was just someone else. Actually, I met them in Mammoth, I met them. After one of their screenings, we became fast friends again, pass them the script, they said, This looks good. And boom, it was kind of what you dream of Hope happening when it comes to getting films off the ground. You know, after all the years of struggle, this one just like boop, boop, boop just kind of fell together. And it was very cool. That so that's how it was born. The shooting of it was a whole other thing. Because, you know, when you read a script about one guy trapped in a room, and you think this would be super easy to shoot, then you sit down to shoot it, you're like, How the hell am I gonna shoot this? It's one guy in a room and I can't cut away from the room because it's like, you can't cut to the next day, because you were in the room with him. How am I going to cover that? And man, that was tough to figure out how to do it. It was like directing a play, to be honest. It really forced me to pull out my all the stops when it comes to working with an actor because it's all on the actor space. And it's all about them, giving a good performance and making it believable that he's trapped there. Yeah, so

Alex Ferrari 1:12:52
That's awesome. It's gonna be picked up by Lionsgate?

Jason Satterlund 1:12:57
Right! It got picked up by Lionsgate. I don't know where it's gonna go from there. There's rumors, it'll get the magical. We're all hoping for that. But I don't 100% now. It's called the abandon. Yeah, and I'm exceedingly proud of this film, and very well, it's, it's got a lot of really positive reviews, people are really enjoying it. It's a sci fi thriller on the vein of like, primer or the queue. I mean, the obvious comparison is the cube but as a smarter version of the cube, I think because it's, it's it's very emotional kind of journey to for these characters.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:33
And how did you raise the money for it?

Jason Satterlund 1:13:36
While the production company that I went to Milhouse they, they funded it.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:41
Awesome, dude. That's a great it's good work if you can get it, sir.

Jason Satterlund 1:13:46
Now what, that's what I love about this industry is it's all possible. Anything and everything is possible. You know, it's is it easy is it hard yet? It can be very difficult but but not impossible. You can actually get there and it was this is just one of those cases where everything fell together really well. Yeah, it's I love it. I love it.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:09
I'm so glad maybe you could see could sense the the love coming from the other side of the screen about your project, man. It's It's so awesome. I hope I hope it does. Well for humanity. And you keep and you keep rockin and rollin, man, I want to see some more cool stuff from you, man. Yeah, absolutely. It was nice to see us old folks, you know, man, watch. I know my head still thinks I'm 25 But then when you could feel when it's gonna rain. Oh, clouds coming back.

Jason Satterlund 1:14:45
I love this industry. I love making it. You know what, it's a privilege to do this? Absolutely. I was on a I was on a shoot recently, where we were out in Joshua Tree. We had to get up it was interesting because we got number four o'clock in the morning. It was really long commute. We had a hump all the gear out to the base of this clicker shooting a rock climber. And I looked over at the first AC and the gaffer. And I'm like, isn't as cool. Like, Isn't this cool? What we're doing? And they laughed at me. They were like, they thought I was being sarcastic. I said, No, no, I'm serious. Like, look at where we are. We're in Joshua Tree getting paid to shoot a rock climber. Are we tired? Sure. But we're getting to participate in the magic of storytelling. And it isn't. There's a lot of people in the world who would love to do this who can't. And we're privileged to be a part of it. And it is the best job in the world. As far as I'm concerned.

Alex Ferrari 1:15:47
I agree with you. But I could only imagine that the gaffer in the grip they were talking to were just like this bitch. Carrying all the freaking gear across the rocks of Joshua. And this guy's like, Hey, guys, is this great? It's like, Screw you, man. Screw you, dude. My back's killing me. But you are absolutely right, sir. Now I'm gonna ask you a few questions. Ask all of my guests. Yeah, what advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Jason Satterlund 1:16:18
You know, find a mentor. Because I personally wasted a lot of time fishing around to try to figure out how to get from A to B years or waste years and years, I burn just not having someone to ask advice to. And they don't have to be Spielberg. They can be anyone who's further down the road than you are like, I wish I wish I had someone to even tell me where to live, or how to budget or anything like that, that could have saved me a lot of pain. Yeah, so yeah. 100% find someone to connect to.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:56
What is the what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Jason Satterlund 1:17:03
You know, I'm gonna go back to the whole thing about the mental attitude. The Battle of keeping the optimism in your life keeping that spark there. It's become so important to me that I will listen to motivational speakers on my pillow before I go to sleep. I've just heard people like a Tony Robbins, or a Wayne Dyer like, of just keeping your eyes up and not cry into the position that you're in. And you know, a lot and just understanding that the position that you're in is probably the one that you chose. So

Alex Ferrari 1:17:42
And it's temporary. And it's temporary. Yeah,

Jason Satterlund 1:17:44
If life is if there's anything consistent about this business is that it's inconsistent. You know, it's it goes up, it goes down, it goes up put seasons of harvest and seasons of scarcity. It just happens. And just the, it's, and I'm still it's still a process. It's not like I've got it all figured out. But like, seeing this business, for the beauty that it is and the creativity that it can be and how to fight the frustrations that come, you know, to focus on the abundance in your life as opposed to the scarcity. I think it's a big one for filmmakers. Because it's really easy to think about what I don't have the job that I don't have, or that someone else got ahead of me or the money. Gosh, I wish I had x dollars in my account, or I wish I had a manager or an agent, instead of all you're going to do is continue to attract that into your life. If you keep focusing on what you don't have, you're basically going to attract the same thing. So instead of shifting it to look how amazing how many amazing talented friends I have, these are talented, wonderful people who bring opportunities to me. You know, it's like if you find a penny on the ground, you're walking down the street, you see a penny on the ground, you have two ways to look at it. You can say great, that's all I get is a penny. Compare that to what all I can get in my career as a wedding video, great screw your universe, or you can look at that Penny and go. I am so surrounded by abundance, that money is falling from the sky. It changed it can change everything for you so that and it's it's a process to retrain your mind like that. But I believe it's very key to to the survival.

Alex Ferrari 1:19:27
Amen, brother. Amen. Preach brother preach. And, and what are three of your favorite films of all time?

Jason Satterlund 1:19:33
Ah, man three, it's hard to narrow it down. I always fall back to my favorite film of all time as aliens and I'm sure other people probably said that but so just imagine all the elements I love it's it's Semester Action is part thriller. It's comedy. It's got great all the characters are very three dimensional and thought out and it's got great escalations, it's it's a, it's just such I love them and we've always loved it. It's kind of movies I'd love to make I'd have to throw back to the future in their massive back the future,

Alex Ferrari 1:20:04
You could throw the trilogy you could put all three this one, that's fine.

Jason Satterlund 1:20:08
It's about as close as it gets to a perfect movie. It's pretty much the way it's built. The way it's laid out is is absolute brilliance. And you know, I probably put the third one up there as maybe Raiders. Yeah, gotta throw it over. I mean, how cool is that? What a cool. Such a good movie. And all these films hold up, by the way, like you're watching them now. And they're still great. Still.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:34
I'm waiting for the moment that I give my daughters Back to the Future. I'm waiting. I'm waiting. I'm waiting a minute. Just so they understand. And they appreciate it. So I just got them through three seasons of Stranger Things. Oh, there you go. And they were like, Hey, what is that movie that they're walking out of? I'm like this back to the future. Can we watch that? I'm like soon. Soon.

Where can people find out more about you and the work you're doing brother?

Jason Satterlund 1:21:03
Yeah, so you know I've got my website which is Jasonsatterlund.com. I'm also on the old IG at the same place Jason Satterlund and on YouTube Jason Satterlund when you just look me up on YouTube. You'll find me I am here.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:18
Jason man. It has been an absolute pleasure talking to another film geek and and elder statesman in a contemporary sir, I appreciate you brother. Thank you for for the the knowledge bombs you've dropped and hopefully this has helped the filmmaker avoid a little bit a couple of pieces of shrapnel that's going to come their way. But I appreciate you brother. Continued success my friend.

Jason Satterlund 1:21:43
Thank you!

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IFH 608: Hot Tub Time Machine, High Fidelity & Directing in Hollywood with Steve Pink

Steve Pink’s career as a writer, producer, and director is inextricably linked to his pal John Cusack. Pink co-wrote the screenplay for the 1997 black comedy “Grosse Pointe Blank,” where Cusack played a deadpan assassin, and also worked on the adaptation of Nick Hornby’s novel “High Fidelity,” which was made into a film for Cusack in 2000.

Pink had co-producer credits on both movies, and, in 2010, he finally directed Cusack in the ’80s flashback comedy “Hot Tub Time Machine.” Pink got his start as an actor in the Cusack movie “The Sure Thing” in ’85; he also appeared in “Grosse Pointe Blank” and played a limo driver in the comedy “America’s Sweethearts,” where Cusack was paired with Julia Roberts and Catherine Zeta-Jones. Fittingly.

Pink has worked as a co-executive producer on the TV series “Entourage,” a tribute to male friendship in show business, and he has stepped up as producer on the Tom Cruise vehicle “Knight and Day.”

His new film is The Wheel.

Albee and Walker, a young couple on the brink of divorce, rent a mountain getaway to save their fledgling marriage. Before long, their personal drama creates tension between their newly engaged AirBnB hosts — Ben & Carly — leaving us to wonder if either couples’ relationships will survive the weekend. Cast: Amber Midthunder, Taylor Gray, Bethany Anne Lind, Nelson Lee, Carly Nykanen, Kevin Pasdon. 

Available on DIGITAL and ON DEMAND, July 22nd.

Enjoy my conversation with Steve Pink.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Steve Pink 0:00
You know the thing that you love and inspired by the most? Or is the thing that the thing that you should that you know more about than anyone else like there's this thought that well, you you know you're not in the business so you don't know anything right but what you you know you don't know anything and anything in quotes means all the things that you know are the complexities and nuances of of being in the movie business. But what you do know is what your idea is, you have command of your idea, and you have command over what story you want to tell.

Alex Ferrari 0:31
This episode is brought to you by Bulletproof Script Coverage, where screenwriters go to get their scripts read by Top Hollywood Professionals. Learn more at covermyscreenplay.com I'd like to welcome to the show Steve Pink man. How you doin Steve?

Steve Pink 0:46
Good, man. Thanks for having me.

Alex Ferrari 0:47
Thank you so much for coming on the show man. Like I was telling you earlier. But I've been I've been a fan of yours for a while, you know, watching the insanity that is your filmography.

Steve Pink 0:58
I appreciate that. I do I do

Alex Ferrari 1:00
With all the love the insanity with all the love in the world.

Steve Pink 1:03
Yeah, I mean, for good or ill I willingly engaged in all the madness, you know, that I chose to? So I have no, I can't run from it. I'm responsible.

Alex Ferrari 1:12
So first question, but how and why did you want to get into this insanity that is the film industry?

Steve Pink 1:19
Well, I didn't really know it was going to be that insane. Although I will say I kind of lived a pretty chaotic life growing up. So it didn't actually feel that insane to me. I grew up with a for whatever reason, maybe my social group, maybe my upbringing, a really strong sense of the absurd, like, I thought the world was insane. at a very early age. Maybe because I had jobs really early. I actually I worked at a I worked at a bar in the eighth grade. as a busboy and dishwasher. I worked Wednesday, Friday, Saturday nights, till midnight on Wednesday nights and until one or two in the morning on Friday, Saturday. And then by the time I was a sophomore in high school, I was the short order cook. And at that same restaurant, so I did, there was a pizza side and the restaurant side, and I did you know Italian beef burgers, chicken, you know, whatever, you know, all you know, sandwiches, stuff like that. So you know, maybe just my exposure to the world just made me think everything is crazy. Adults are crazy. And so I felt really comfortable, I guess in the world of chaos. That's, that's the only thing I could really attribute it to. So no, I didn't think it was that that insane when I first started? I mean, I do now of course.

Alex Ferrari 2:38
I love that. I love it. But now of course, I mean, obviously now I understand. But it's gonna be we ran away to the circus. I mean, that's, that's the insanity of what we do is filmmakers we run away.

Steve Pink 2:48
I mean, we're Yeah, I mean, we're engaged in storytelling. I mean, to me when you're engaged in storytelling, and the more I do it, and more I've done it, the, the I realized, I've been telling stories to myself outside the film industry, my whole life, like we tell, like we were, you know, like narrative. It took me a long time to realize that everything was narrative, like it was like, well, there's real life. And then there's, you know, then there's creating dramatic narrative for film and television or theater, whatever. And then I'm like, wait a minute, it's terrifying to of course, realize that there is no difference. You're capturing, you know, moments in time, or characters on journeys to tell stories inside, you know, the dramatic content or comedy or whatever. And then we as an audience all view it right. But to pretend like we go home and be like, oh, yeah, that's just, you know, that's just the movies and and, and now I'm living in reality, separate from that is false, you know. And so once I realized that it actually made me feel both worse and better, if that makes sense. Because that's just what we're engaged in. So if you're engaged in it all the time, it can drive you crazy. Like there are people who just like, Okay, enough, like you're in a narrative, I get it. Just live your life, like enjoy your life and live it. And don't, you know, be so analytical and neurotic all the time about everything, but you know, I can't help it. So what was I saying? So?

Alex Ferrari 4:05
Exactly, exactly, sir. Exactly. Yeah.

Steve Pink 4:08
So I mean, yeah, so I think being you know, in, you know, being engaged in a creative field, your whole life, as you know, is an interesting choice. And I love it. And it's caused me all kinds of terrorists, but I think that's probably true. To be fair of everything anyone does in mind. You know, like, I would never not say that someone who owned a restaurant feels any different.

Alex Ferrari 4:27
Oh, no, absolutely. I mean, I've owned retail before, and it's insane. It's an insanity to do any. There's insanity and all levels. It's just that we are the most one of the most high profile of levels of insanity because everyone sees what we do, and consumes much of what we do as well. Now, is there something that you wish someone would have told you at the beginning of your career? If you could go back in time and talk to yourself? What would be the one thing you might do? Do you know what you really need to look out for it's this

Steve Pink 4:58
Wow, that's a really interesting Good question. You know, if I listened, you know, I said, as I said, before we went on that I listened to a few of your podcasts, and they're really fascinating. Great. And, you know, I should have searched the podcasts, you know, more deeply so that I could have had an answer. I couldn't borrow the answer to that question from one of your other guests. Something someone would have said to me that I wished they had told me. Hmm, that's a really good question.

Alex Ferrari 5:27
Like, for me, or for me, for me, like if it was me, I answered my own question. Patients, man, it's gonna take you a lot longer than you think it's ever going to take you to do what you want to do.

Steve Pink 5:37
Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, I was very, very lucky in the way I got in, but I, so I didn't feel that as much. And maybe that was a curse in and of itself. I think the other thing is, it's way harder. And I heard, as we've talked about this, when maybe that comes to mind, it is way more difficult to actually execute the thing that you want to execute, even when you get the opportunity. So you have these dreams of doing it, right. And then you even get the opportunity to do it, and then you're in front of it, doing it, and then you fail utterly. And you're like, Well, wait, you know, I thought that I would, once I got the moment, I'd be able to, because I think it's tricky, there's so many elements, to doing something that's good and interesting, you know, when you're on the floor, and you have a camera, and you've have a script and all of your actors, you still have to kind of, you know, be open to, you know, this thing, this magic, and I hate using that word, but you know, this magical thing kind of has to happen, even if you have all the elements, you know, under your control, you still have to create it, you know, create an environment and then get lucky, and atmosphere and then get lucky where something cool and interesting happens that that matches what you had in mind when you cast it, and when you you know, built the you know, when you build the set or, or cast the actors and rehearsed and so so it's, so it's a kind of intangible thing. And so, I think I think I took that for granted a little bit. And it's not that I took it for granted, I just was not aware of it. So if someone said to me, Hey, Matt, you know, be aware, you know, it's, it's, it's gonna be so much more difficult, the more you do it not less, better and better. And it's never ending, you know,

Alex Ferrari 7:16
Well, it's compromised, that's all we do as directors is compromised, it's like, every day, no matter how much money you have, no matter who's in front of the camera, you gotta compromise your vision in many ways. And a lot of times, it's better than what you ever thought of, when you hit when you allow that magic to happen. It's when the director wants to control. Every little thing is when if you hold on too tight, it's like trying to hold on to water. Like it just slips right through your fingers.

Steve Pink 7:42
Yeah, I mean, aren't, you know, I'm sure this is probably a cliche, someone wrote down somewhere. But art is limitation, right. So you are limited by whatever you are limited by in any given moment. And you know, money might not be your limitation in that moment, you're the son could be your limitation, you know, your limitations, like there's so many different things. And, you know, that's why, you know, you I used to be really angry when I'd see, you know, movies that had what would would seem seemingly? Well, when you see a movie with seemingly limitless budget, you know, and then it's not good, you have that, you know, you have that besides the shot on Friday, or whatever you have that feeling of, like, Was it because you had a lack of limitation. And so you just went, you know, because of that lack of limitation, you weren't critical in terms of like, what you needed to tell a good story? Or were you limited by things I didn't even you know, that far, you know, beyond me, and those limitations are what kept you from telling a good story, you know, because it's hard to get your head around, you know, when it's 150 or $200 million movie, how it could be how it could, you know, not work, not work. And so, and so I think, yeah, I think it's a constant struggle for all of us at every level. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 8:57
It is frustrating to see a movie that has watched them all the time, you know, you watch something on Netflix, and you're like, who gave them money? Like, why? Like, how did that happen? You know, and then you go, there's

Steve Pink 9:09
Something you know, is the reason right? You can say, Oh, well, because of this, you

Alex Ferrari 9:13
It was the actor was the location. It was the the executives this, you know, the script was they had to rush it to get it out before. There's 1000 things that could happen. But it's still frustrating when you when you see something like that, especially when you're in the business. And you're like, Well, I and then of course in the back of every director's head were like, well, we could have done better.

Steve Pink 9:29
What well, I also think like, Yeah, I mean, I also think like, you know, I would try my damnedest to do better if I had all the resources, right? I mean, I don't really think hey, I could have done that better. As much as I think like, I was like, boy, you know, I would have liked the shot to be on the floor instead of you. Like, I don't know if I could have done it better, but shit, I couldn't have done it worse. Right. Exactly.

Alex Ferrari 9:52
And it's fascinating because I mean, I've had the pleasure of talking to some directors who have worked in those $200 million 100 $50 million budgets. And I was asked I'm like, What's it like, you know, working in that environment where you've got like the biggest movie stars in the world and anything you want, like I remember when I was coming up in high school, True Lies was shooting in Miami. And you know, Jim Cameron was already Jim Cameron at that point. And I went on I went on the set I was, you know, just hanging out not on the set, but like, you know, outskirts of the set. And I just remember seeing the gym had every toy. You can imagine. Sitting there. Techno, steady, helicopter. Everything, just in case you wanted it. Not like I need the techno for the day. No, no, no, no, the techno was there. The entire shoot, in case something eat gets tickled to do a techno shot. That's amazing.

Steve Pink 10:53
Amazing. And you know, looking at his work, you're like, yes, you deserve to have like for sure.

Alex Ferrari 11:01
Every every brush do you want sir, you should have Chris Nolan, David Fincher, these kinds of filmmakers they need what? Give them what they want.

Steve Pink 11:10
Yeah. And I bet they, they I bet they also have I bet they're also very good at planning, you know, like, the more that which they're going to do. You know, the, you know, like, all their shots are so planned. And they're so hard, what they're doing that you know, that you're not just you're not just deciding to, you know, get out and get it going to put a camera in the helicopter like spontaneously in maybe even they have the opportunity to do that. But it's beyond all their planning. For sure. You know,

Alex Ferrari 11:38
Without question. You mentioned that you mentioned that you kind of had a break early on, what was that first big break for you?

Steve Pink 11:47
Well, I was very lucky because I so I met John Cusack in high school because we well, we became friends. But we became friends through a, like a student run comedy variety show that that was kind of like it still runs today. It's like a very famous, like, you know, it's one of those, you know, 50 year running variety shows that they do every year that the student run since Ron and I applied to be the writer director, I've my senior year, and so did John and so to two other guys. And so then we found ourselves, you know, the summer before senior year writing the show together and that's how we became friends. And then

Alex Ferrari 12:23
And but John was already Jami, he was already Yeah, he's acting already. He was already a star. I mean, quote, unquote, a star in the ad star already. He already done better off dead and stuff like that, right?

Steve Pink 12:33
Yeah, it's pretty good. But he had done that or not. I don't know if he had done better off dead actually yet, but you've been working. You've already been working? Oh, yeah. You did the shirt he had done. I think he was just doing the shirt thing he had done class, I believe I think classic come out. But you know, it's interesting. I went to a huge public high school we had like almost 4000 kids. And there were so many really hot, there were so many high fliers and all these different categories that actually, John wasn't, you know, obviously, he was the he was, you know, he was famous and he got a lot of attention for being you know, this young actor who might be a movie star. But, you know, it was just a very competitive public high school. So it never really felt like out of proportion. Like there were plenty like there was like, oh, yeah, Johnson really cool actors like, Oh, there's the guy who's going to the NBA. There's, you know, like, there's, you know, our class valedictorian is going to Harvard, like, and she's, you know, going to do great things like, oh, like one of our closest friends went on to be nominated for a Pulitzer in journalism. She was already running the school newspaper, and then went to the, I think the deal School of Journalism at Northwestern, like, there were just so many from, from our perspective, there's so many people doing so many things.

Alex Ferrari 13:38
So it was one of many very cool people.

Steve Pink 13:40
Yeah, often to balance out, you know, there was like, there was like, 900, I think, in our graduating class, and there's at least, you know, maybe 150 or 20 people that I think was like this community of ours, you know, we were all doing so, you know, really cool. And I feel like everyone was doing really cool things. But in any case, we, you know, full of ourselves, obviously. And so, yeah, so then, over the years through while I was going to college, Johnny started working with Tim Robbins, in a theatre company called the actors game. Then I went and did a show with the, with the actors gang in between, like in the summers between going to school and I actually got replaced by Jack Black for a show in 1980s. I'm dating myself in the late 80s. Because I had to go back to Berkeley and the show extended so then check to cover my part, which I think I only had 12 lines and I moved a lot of scenery, frankly, it's true. And then Johnny and I formed a theatre company with a bunch of other actors called new crime productions. And I was after college I was a social worker, actually. For for the I was an outreach caseworker for the homeless mentally ill, that was my job after college. And Johnny had gone out to LA and I was running the theatre company and working as a social worker and he Um, he had got a producing deal. Brandon Tartikoff, who was a, like a legendary network chief was like, went on to run Paramount Pictures, he gave John a producing deal. Then John asked me to run the company with him. And so that's how I got my start. So I was extremely.

Alex Ferrari 15:19
So it's a story that everyone, everyone goes to that I mean, obvious is the obvious story. I mean, I too, became good friends with Brad Pitt. And I've been working with Brad for years now.

Steve Pink 15:28
Yeah, it's lucky. It's a lucky and ridiculous events have happened to me to walk. It's amazing. The door. It was amazing. And then, you know, you know, the, so I was very, very lucky. And then we were still tasked with doing something good. And that there's that balance? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we had to actually, you know, and I felt the pressure of that, too, you know, like, we were young men, and it was, I was starting to run his company. And and it was challenging to get to know the business from that vantage point. And then try and create something with John that stood out and would be something that we wanted that, you know, stood out as, as the kind of movie and stories we wanted to tell him to. And that's a challenge, especially since you know, again, it's, you know, we walked to have the opportunity to walk through that door. It's just, it's just beyond extraordinary. So once you start talking about, well, it's hard once we got in, you know, anyone listening is like, Yeah, well, you just had like this golden ticket. So how hard was it? It's hard to so just put, you know, so it's hard to kind of, you know, to, like that is true. But then because you have to do something good. And you have to comply with the industry and actually get movies made and try and do it. You know, I felt like it's square one everywhere.

Alex Ferrari 16:42
Right! Exactly. You know, and because I've been able to talk to so many of these, these filmmakers who have had these kind of lottery ticket moments. I mean, you had kind of a lot of long lottery ticket moment with, you know, meeting just happened to become friends with John Kuzak at the time of his career and what this was all going on. And you guys gelled, and it worked. But then you got people like Kevin Smith, or Robert Rodriguez, or Ed burns, or any of these guys. And the one thing I've always discovered talking to all these guys, is that you might have been lucky getting in the door. Right place, right time, right movie, right situation. There's a lot of those kinds of stories through Hollywood. But staying in the door, is where the work starts. So yeah, you might have had a little bit of an opening. But man, it's not easy staying in that room. You could get invited in that room. But you could have easily just been like and security very easily.

Steve Pink 17:33
Yeah, I mean, the doors, the door opens as you know, the door opens and closes and you have to keep prying it open. You know, I think that you know, there's very few filmmakers, even legendary ones who have like whole palaces of doors open for them. I still wake up in the morning with, you know, a crowbar ready to pry door open. I think that's just what we do. And it's just, it's just the nature of it. And so I That's true. me for sure. And continue to stay. That can be my segue to the wheel.

Alex Ferrari 18:06
Which we'll get to get to your new movie the wheel? Absolutely.

Steve Pink 18:09
Yeah. I mean, well, we talked about that later. But like, that's another just another example of something. And when we get to it, that, that it was like, Oh, I see an opportunity to do something and do explore something that I hadn't had the opportunity that I haven't had the opportunity to do. And you know, when you go down that road, it's just like anything else, you know, you're just continue to want to work and try and make something good. And that's what we do for a living.

Alex Ferrari 18:31
So I mean, you were obviously involved with one of my favorite movies of the 90s Grosse Pointe Blank. It is such an insane idea. You know, a hitman goes back to his high school reunion and he's having issues and it was such a brilliant film. How did you is that something that came from you? From you? And John, how did that whole because it like I tell people that movie would never get made today just wouldn't get me today in the studio system. It'd be very difficult.

Steve Pink 19:01
Yeah, although it'd be made in television. Right. You know, like, I feel like a series Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I feel like Barry has some you know, is reminiscent in a grand they, they've like taken off and done. Like if I could have made the series if like if there was more stories around that. I mean, but those guys didn't extraordinary. You know, that I love that show so so because of things that reminds me of from my first movie and then all the things that they're that all the things they've done to to explore that concept is so brilliant and so fun, and I love it so much. And so, you know, the I just have to say it sounds horrible that I'm saying this because it sounds like Oh, great. I thought a berry which is not the case like I stole all kinds of things to make Grosse Pointe Blank happen, right like the President's analysts, which is this quirky, weird 70s movie about? I think these bad guys trying to kill the psychiatrist of the President, I believe although it's been so many years, like they were all kinds of movies like that, that I loved and influence me. So by no means am I saying I don't even know if I influenced them in any way, it's just we share a similar idea. So I don't want to be kind of misconstrued as

Alex Ferrari 20:15
No, of course, of course. Alright. So how did that how did that come to be?

Steve Pink 20:20
Oh, so, yeah, so we got this deal at Paramount, and then we would get, you know, submissions in and I didn't even know that you weren't supposed to read unsolicited material. I didn't, I didn't know the distinction. You know, I guess the answer your earlier question, which is, what what do you wish someone would have told me prior to getting into Hollywood? And I guess the answer would have been, well, everything about producing because I didn't know anything, no one told me anything. I was just suddenly sitting in an office in Paramount, I mean, Paramount Pictures, and I was trying to, like figure out, like, what would be the process of thinking of an idea or creating idea, and then, you know, getting made, you know, made to a movie. And so I got this script, it was written by this guy, Tom shanku. It's, it was unsolicited, you know, um, and, you know, that's the other thing, like, you know, companies don't take unsolicited material, because they're afraid they'll be sued if people steal their ideas, etc. And was like, well, they could sue me. I'm a social worker, you know, like, like, six weeks earlier, I was making $70,000 a year. So, you know, you're worse, but but that's just a joke. I wasn't actually even thinking about it in those terms. I simply didn't know. So I read this script. And it's really amazing. It's kind of a straightforward actioner. I mean, with the you know, and it strikes me as is like, a brilliantly and beautifully ironic idea. And funny and, and so I talked to Tom Jake was about it, he, you know, he was okay with DVD of incentives, who became my for longtime, longtime writing partner. And we just had kind of a vision for the movie that Tom didn't necessarily share. He wasn't against it. But he was just kind of like, you know, I wrote the movie I wrote, but if you guys want to revise it, go ahead. So we said, great, so we came out. So we, you know, started figuring out like how to our approach was kind of subvert all the expectations of the movie. So like, for instance, and Tom jank, which is version, there was the bully, he goes back and see, but in the bully version, there's like a big fight, right? And he fights the bully and wins. And we thought to ourselves, Well, you know, the bully isn't your enemy anymore. He's probably as an assassin could have real enemies. And so like, what is the subversion of expectation with the bully, and that is that he's not this scary, terrible person who tormented you in high school. And in this case, he's a sad drunk who writes poetry, right? So, you know, we you know, and then you know, the father who would be angry that he left his you know, that he left his daughter, John's character left his daughter, you know, standing in the doorway, and never having picked her up for prom, he would be angry, right? Well, no, because he's a corporate. He's a corrupt corporate raider of a certain kind. And so he has an affinity with with junkies eyes character, because they're both men of the world who are corrupted by that world and therefore share a bond. And so it was kind of all these little kind of tropes or touchstones that we looked at, and wanted to mess with. And, you know, we were fortunate enough. It was actually a movie. It was originally after we revised it and took it to market. It was first bought by John Kelly, who was a famous filmmaker, or studio boss, who had made, you know, Kubrick's movies. And he was kind of, they were, there was yet another version of the United Artists MGM, like being reconstituted at that time, right. So, so United Artists was becoming an active studio again. And John Kelly was running it, he was the one who originally bought the movie. And that was, you know, just amazing. Movie and saw its potential. And then ended up getting turned around, he ended up not being able to make it and was so gracious about giving it back to us. That's another thing. You know, just it's another piece of luck. Yeah, like you don't, you know, my career is just a series of luck of Lucky moments in which, you know, and maybe that's true of so many of us. But so John Kelly couldn't make the movie and he was really gracious about coming back to this, which is I didn't know not a thing. But my attitude was, oh, yeah, well, great. If you can make the movie, then. Yeah, we get to go make it somewhere else. It was only later that I found out that that's not actually a thing and his generosity was extraordinary. So he gave us the movie back I'm sure. I'm not sure. So Jen, Joe Roth, and Roger Birnbaum, who was two at a kind of mini, they had a huge producing company called caravan. And they ended up taking on the movie and Donna Roth Joe's wife, and soon and Susan Arnold were the producers. And so it was actually done it and Susan, who brought it to Roger and Joe and Roger and Joe agreed to make the move. And so that's how it happened. So it was it kind of series of kind of lucky things that fell All our way.

Alex Ferrari 25:01
After that moving through, if I remember correctly, it was a fairly decent hit and when he wasn't a blockbuster monster hit, but it was a decent hit enough enough that the town would, you know, like, Oh, these guys are doing some cool stuff.

Steve Pink 25:14
Yeah, I think I remember I could be wrong about this, I'd have to ask my colleagues, but I believe that it got really good long lead press. And so they gave it a slightly better release, I think are much better release, I think that it was going to be released, maybe. I mean, I didn't really know anything about these kinds of things. I just remember hearing that there was our release was pushed, and it was because of appalling ly pressed. So I'm not repeating that story. And then 25 years later, but so then it was like, then we knew that maybe we had something, you know, that was maybe good and that maybe people would go see. And so yeah, I think it did well, although it was really funny, because, you know, I think Anaconda came out

Alex Ferrari 25:51
97 so yeah.

Steve Pink 25:53
And, and I think we got crushed. And I remember.

Alex Ferrari 25:58
But it was JLo man

Steve Pink 25:59
Yeah, it was amazing. Yeah, I think I went and saw that. I'm sure I went saw that movie that weekend or the weekend after because it was in the theater and is this across by Anaconda. And I was like, Well, yeah, that movie is awesome.

Alex Ferrari 26:11
I'm thinking is this pre Con Air or post Con Air?

Steve Pink 26:15
Pre this was the first movie corresponding was kind of the first movie that we did together. And it was definitely the first movie that Johnny, John Cusack had a gun in his hand. And that was part of a thing that we discussed actually before. Like before, the the corresponding Grossman grant came along. In this might sound silly, but we did discuss things like well, that so at that time, there were a lot of John had a lot of opportunities to play an FBI agent or play a cop or whatever, basically, you know, all these ideas that would put a gun in his hand. And we just kept saying, we had this line where we were like, well, if you're gonna have a gun in your hand, you just have a cut in your hand, ironically. And we didn't exactly. This, we didn't exactly know what that meant, you know, but we were like, Yeah, because we don't necessarily want you to be a hero with a gun. Like, we were just kind of fundamentally against that we didn't know what that creatively did for him, you know, like, what is that? As an actor and as the kind of characters you play? Like, what how does that work? Exactly. And so, you know, to be an assassin, and a kind of antihero made absolute sense, right? Because then he could be well, he's perfect. Good question. He's very existence and his existence is killing people with gods. And so that was like, Oh, well, that makes perfect sense.

Alex Ferrari 27:33
Right, exactly. Now, after that, you did another movie, another classic 90s film high fidelity, where I mean, it's, you know, the cast and that is, I was looking at the trailer the other day, I was like, Jesus, man, you had everybody that movie was, I mean, it was just, it was it was insane. And then I realized who the director was. Yeah. And I'm like, how am I? How God's green earth did the guy who did Dangerous Liaisons end up doing I fidelity? So what was it like working with Steven fears with his legendary filmmaker? And what were some lessons that you picked up from him?

Steve Pink 28:12
Well, that's a really that's a great question. Well, we got even close because John had made a movie with him. Right. And then so so again, you know, this is going to become an unbearable podcast because it was just another lucky in our lives,

Alex Ferrari 28:28
Let's just let's just state this right now. You are. Did you buy a lottery ticket for the for the Powerball, please? Yes. Buy one. buy just one. You don't? You only need the one.

Steve Pink 28:36
Yeah, I bought the cinema lottery ticket, and it keeps paying off. Yeah, because Joe Roth after ghosts point blank. He became the chairman of Disney, and he had high fidelity under the touchstone banner, and he gave us the book. He said, Hey, you guys, what do you think of this book? And what do you think about it as a movie? And we were, it was extraordinary. And, you know, we wrote a script that he liked Joe, I mean, and he said, Go find a director, and Steven fierce, Johnny called Steven fairs. And Steven fair said that he would do it. So like, okay, is this terrible? We can end this podcast at any point. I mean, I have struggled quite a bit in my career. And so we you know, we have another seven hours, we can talk about the actual you know,

Alex Ferrari 29:23
I'm hitting the highlights here. I'm hitting the highlights if you want I can go into the bombs if you'd like Yeah.

Steve Pink 29:28
That didn't work. We can get into my struggles over the years. Like that would be I think, at least no call to balance out this podcast. But But, Joe case, but just to finish this high point, before it all went south. I. We, we so he we brought Steven for years, and then we went through a script process was with Steven, that was almost probably almost a year in in length, six to nine months and we rewrote the movie a bunch of times. And I learned you know And then watching him work was just extraordinary. He just learned so much, but I learned so many extraordinary things from him. You know, like, he would talk about and I was constantly interviewing him, you know, off the set. And because I just wanted to learn, and he would always endorse my questions, and, you know, I would ask him, you know, really pretentious Film School questions like, what his style, you know, as like, what his style like what like what you know, like you said Scorsese has a style, and Tarantino has a style and you know, and he's done so many styles, which is why I asked him because if you look at prick up, your ears are the hit, or Dangerous Liaisons or the queen or even high fidelity, pretty much every movie, he makes 30 Pretty Things has a different style, you know, he's kind of a master wizard of it. And his, you know, he thinks and, you know, this is just his opinion, and it's just a really interesting perspective, true or not true, or you can evaluate, its, you know, whether, whether it's true or not, or you're, you know what it means, but he says that there is no such thing as style in his mind, he's, like, a director, utilizes what he needs and makes it his disposal, what he needs to tell the story who's telling. So if he needs to fly the camera, you know, through a building, you know, to, you know, like, you know, if he needs to, you know, whatever, use very whatever style he's employing, you know, with the camera, whether it's to lay back and not have the camera be intentional, and you don't really notice the camera, or whether the camera is like this, you know, crazy flying creature, that is part of the storytelling. He's like, that is what the director needed to tell his story. Right? So that because of that, that then you say afterwards, well, the director made a film and it looks like this Edgar Wright or Martin Scorsese, or, or David Fincher. And you go, Well, you know, he this is he's a, you know, T employee, this style is a director to tell the story and Steven fairs would say no, he told T used what he told the story, the way he needed to tell the story to make it work. And the style comes after you look at it and say, Oh, well, that is the style he employed, but Steven careers would say, and maybe he would disagree with the thing that we do, maybe would have a different view this many years later. I haven't talked to Steven, many years. But then he said to me, that's how he views it. That's and so the the instructive thing to me about that was okay, well, then I don't you know, when I'm looking at shooting any given thing, I'm like, Well, how do I tell the story of this moment? Or how to how to tell the story of this? What is this? What is the story of this particular shot? What is the story? Am I telling? What story am I telling in this particular moment? I know that I have all kinds of stylistic choices available to me without getting caught up in saying like, Oh, well, I can employ this style, but not that style. Like what do I need to tell the story most effectively?

Alex Ferrari 32:52
Well, I mean, if you just have to look at someone like Kubrick, who was literally the master of changing genre. I mean, he literally made the movie of every genre. Yeah, I'm gonna make the comedy. I'm gonna make the war movie. I'm gonna make the horror movie, I'm like, and you just look at his style. And there's certain things that kind of there's things as far as flavors that you can kind of see throughout his projects. But the stuff that he employed and Dr. Strangelove is not what he did an Eyes Wide Shut. That's a completely different it's what he needed to do to tell those individual stories. So that's really interesting. That's an interesting I completely agree with Stephen on that one.

Steve Pink 33:29
Yeah, I visually you can see it in their work like you know, I love Jane Campion and when you know, the movie I just love but I also love sweetie and Angel and I table back in the day and the guide forgotten how concerned she is with the interior lives of her characters. You know, she'll stop everything all the time. Like the piano. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, the piano, it's like really just be in a, in a really urgent observational state, which I am just amazed by like that, because it's, it's observational, but it has this urgency, which I find kind of astounding. And that's a wholly different style, because it's not the camera isn't moving, you know, that it's not moving that much. But yeah, he achieves that and it's it's it's really cool.

Alex Ferrari 34:16
So then you you know, so after you've had some successes, you've been doing some stuff and then you get a chance to direct your first feature film with a with a fairly decent budget is a studio budget, you know, where you know, this is not 200 million, but you this is the first time you're on set running a big studio production. So what was it like in the movie, by the way is accepted which I just adored that movie. I thought it was so much fun to watch that film, when it came out. And again, stupid cast, like insane cast that you had back then. What was it like walking on the set the first day on your first studio project? Like, do you have are you waiting for security to take you off?

Steve Pink 34:59
Yeah, I mean, I I got this like, pain in my shoulder that was so so sharp that I had to like take a bath. Like after the shoot day like I was like, I had to figure out how to loosen up my trade. So stressed Oh, yeah, my shoulder was just keep killing. Yeah, I was working so hard to like have a successful day that

Alex Ferrari 35:22
Make your day just make your day in general

Steve Pink 35:24
Make my day do something interesting, you know, make it you know, like, create, you know, creating comedy. I always felt fairly comfortable with actors because I directed a lot of theater. So I was I was always pretty comfortable directing, and directing and rehearsing and blocking, right I can gin up at least something you know, Jennifer enough really interesting and funny stuff. And with great actors, it's not you know, it's it's something that I love. And it's something I feel that I'm I'm halfway decent at. So that part was the part that I understood it, but then capturing it with the with the camera, you know, was just a wholly different thing. Because I was then I had to learn very quickly, you know, how to get what I was just rehearsing in the camera in the same way, I just pictured it in real time, right, which are in like, with the naked eye like, okay, so it's really, really funny to me, but it's not a play. So how do I how do I keep everything that's really funny and spontaneous about that, that I just rehearsed? And how do I shoot it so that it's still feel spontaneous and funny when we shoot it in that that was a learning process that both universal and Tom Shadyac, the producer, were really, really patient with me, in terms of discovering it also was a little bit hard. I will say, after all these years that the movie really wanted to be an R rated movie, you know, it's a guy who starts his own college. Right? So the fact that we could never that there were no that there was no, you know, whatever.

Alex Ferrari 36:44
There was no American high moments, there was no American Pie moment, if

Steve Pink 36:47
There was no sex, no drugs, no outrageousness about, you know, milk in that order. And so I made it a little bit harder. So I was like, Well, how do I create a kind of call it edgy lunacy. Um, you know, given that story there, right. And we did, we found some things like, they let us get away with the fact that the kids since they're trying to whatever, they're gonna renovate a mental hospital, turn it into a college, and they found like, you know, the electroshock therapy machine, you know, so they're, like, chopping each other and drinking what look like, you know, alcoholic drinks, you know, things like that, that I kind of got away with, that seemed funny, because I didn't have anything else at my disposal. But, you know, the actors are also incredibly funny and warm. And that, of course, is what you know, really made it work, you know, most of the time, you know, blow up a car, like it's a totally absurd, it's totally, it's a grounded based film, because the film is has a grounded reality to it, but somehow the very end of the movie, you know, the character whose dream is to be, you know, believes he believes he has like telekinetic powers, you know, blows up in his mind, you know, he succeeds in his life goal at college. And the fact that they let us put that in the movie and keep it in the movie was you know, just funny and ridiculous.

Alex Ferrari 38:01
So, you know, as directors you know, we'll there's always that day on set, if not every day, but there's a one day that really everything is falling apart, whether you losing the sun, your camera, the camera truck crashed along the way, and you lost your camera. Actors won't come out of something, it whatever it is, what was that for you on this project on accepted? And how did you overcome that? That overwhelming thing, that feeling that you feel like the entire world is coming crashing down on you?

Steve Pink 38:31
Let's see what day was that? Every,

Alex Ferrari 38:34
every day? No, every day, like I said, it's every day, but there must have been one day that was really just like cheese. It's a one day that you remember that you were just like, You know what, this day? Oh?

Steve Pink 38:45
Well, there was a day. Yeah, there was a day where we were shooting the scene where the parents show up just as long as parents show up. And they have to kind of pay us to give them a tour. And we were rehearsing. And I realized I didn't have enough jokes, like there weren't there wasn't anything funny going on, per se. Like they kind of walked down the hall. And the dialogue was the dialogue. But I was like, oh, like, this doesn't seem like what? You know, and it was something we probably should have planned for. But I was like, Wait, shouldn't they be hiding something? Shouldn't they? Like, what's the dance that's happening around the parents that the parents are that's just that just ends up out of frame? Or that they don't see when they turn the corner? And like, what are the things they're trying to hide? And what are the things they're trying to present as the real school, and we have to kind of just so that was that panic, because I was looking at a whole day of shooting that was not going to be funny. And it was a really important scene in the movie. And so with the help of producers and the actors, and every department that was one of the first times I was like, Well, what do props have? What does the production designer what you know, what, what do we have in terms of the art department? Like what things can we generate? What things would be funny? I think it's a pretty funny sequence. Have we really, really planned it to, like I would today, it would be, you know, 10 times the size. But so then we managed to, like, you know, of course, because of Justin and him being so funny, and being really, really good at being the kind of like, you know, you know, the, the, you know, he was the one who was like, you know, had all the ball he was talking he got all about he kept the balls up in the air, right. So he's really, really good at playing that tension. And so we made a sequence out of it, and I think it worked out, okay, and it's a funny little sequence. But that was the first day I realized that there will be times when you arrive on set thinking everything's great, and nothing's going to work in terms of like, what you're about to shoot, and almost every day, yeah, and you have to figure out like, you know, and so I never So from that moment, I've never taken for granted that something you think that I tend to worry about the scenes that seemed that, that that I think are gonna go well, like the scenes, when you're planning when I'm planning a shoot the scenes that, you know, seem the big set pieces, and, you know, in the big shoots, whether they're big parties or big or tons that are big high jinks or be what stunts or whatever it is, those clips plan so much and you work on it so much that even though there's you know, whatever a nervousness around executing them well and you know, an attendant amount of worry goes into that I always am now I'm always keep an eye out for the ones that sneak up on you the one that you think, Oh, well, we're gonna shoot this in two hours. It's a really funny scene. Everybody gets it. We know what story were telling me. No, there's no what they're doing. This is gonna be no problem. We're going to be audited by before lunch, and then we'll be getting out the rest of the day. Those are the ones that that I that I worry most about? Or I don't know if I worry is the right word. Those are the ones that I I pay attention to cautious you're cautious about Yeah, I pay attention to them. I spend an extra I spent extra energy around making sure those seem to actually work because those are the ones that if they suddenly don't work surprise you and then you know, you don't want them.

Alex Ferrari 41:57
Now you also add a small producing gig with us small young actor named Tom Cruise. years ago as well. You were one of the producers on his film 90 Day with Cameron and it was camera if you haven't watched Cameron Diaz and M. That's now when you when you were a producer on that that's now you're at a whole other level, budget wise and things. Is there any big lessons you learned from producing a film like that?

Steve Pink 42:25
Well, this would be a no fun story. But I actually didn't work on the film. So what happened was there was an idea that I came up with, with Todd Garner, the producer, and a great friend of mine, Patrick O'Neill, who's a great writer wrote it and we sold it to revolution studios that Joe Roth was running and at that time I was attached to produce with Todd and we were going to make the movie and then it got turned around to Fox. And it had a very, you know, crazy journey, like so many movies due to getting made and this one ended extraordinarily with extraordinarily extraordinarily, with, you know, James Mangold and Tom Cruise, Kennedy is but by that point, even Joe Robin Garner weren't actively producing it, like they honed. You know, I think James Mangold has his producing partner. And then and so we didn't, we weren't active participants in the making of the film. But I was an active participant in having, you know, obviously, coming up with the idea, having it written, and then you know, kind of, you know, trying to get paid for years. So by that time, by the time that came around, it wasn't our film anymore. And yeah, I have extraordinary credits on that movie. Well, the Joe Ross gave me those credits, right, it was a movie that I had thought of that I pitched him that I hadn't had, that, you know, I have a presentation credit, it was going to be my company that produced it, and I was going to be the producer. It's just that it, you know, got away from me and all these different ways. And, you know, I'm, you know, it's, it's so it happened so often, you know, like, oh, I don't know what I would have contributed anyway, like, I would have liked to have been a part of it, but I'm not sure at that point that anyone was interested in my opinion. You know, like, I would have loved to contribute to the movie, but who would have listened to me frankly

Alex Ferrari 44:22
But its the Juggernaut at that point. It's literally just this giant machine that's moving forward. And you know, when you have someone like Tom Cruise and in James Mangold, back then he wasn't James mangled as of today, but he's still a very, very strong director, that that machine is going, it's hard to, it's hard to jump on.

Steve Pink 44:42
They certainly didn't need me. I mean, I shouldn't say this way creatively. I think they needed me. I mean, I've loved the movie, but there are certain like, there's there's some DNA in there that that was that inspired the idea to begin with. I wish they had preserved you know, like, but that's my that's me. Looking at it like that the movie stands on its own. And it's funny and great in its own way. So it doesn't necessarily need the things I think it needed. But of course, I have a desire, you know, like in my, you know, this happens to everyone who's made a film or watches a film get made you think well, oh, well, I wish it did contain these other things. Sure. And I had in mind, you know, but whether they actually needed those things or not, I don't know. You know, but um, but I thought I thought it was really fun. I thought Tom Cruise.

Alex Ferrari 45:29
It was a fun, but it was it was it was it was unlike his normal films.

Steve Pink 45:34
The whole idea was was hero as unreliable nearing zero as unreliable new reality, you know? So, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 45:46
Now, the one thing when I was when, when you came across my desk, to come on the show, the one question I knew it was going to ask you, and I've actually been dying to ask you this before we even knew that you were going to come on the show. Because when this came out into the world, I was like, how on God's green earth did this happen? Hot Tub Time Machine, sir. How did this gave birth into the world?

Steve Pink 46:15
Well, first have to ask Josh healed and you should have him on the show. He's the guy now he's definitely having on the show. He thought of the idea. I he might have even thought of the idea in a hot tub. I'm not sure. I can't bear.

Alex Ferrari 46:30
By the way, he's absolutely brilliant and what they're doing with Cobra Kai, I'm obsessed with Cobra Kai.

Steve Pink 46:36
It's amazing. And he wrote so he wrote the movie, he, he ended up with Luke Ryan, who's an executive at MGM. In Mary parent was running the studio at that time with with an executive named Caleb beuter. And they were just crazy enough to make it like

Alex Ferrari 46:53
I was about to say like, This is the weirdest pitch. It's like so weird. It's, it crosses over like yeah, good. Maybe can work.

Steve Pink 47:02
Yeah, I mean, they were you know, kale and Marian and Luke were game they're great. And they they understood the movie. They were like, this is totally ridiculous and funny and, and, you know, at its core, because there's also smart filmmakers. They understood that it was a midlife crisis movie, right? It's a midlife crisis movie. But instead of like going to a dude ranch, or going on a motorcycle, like tour, they really don't have time machine and have to relive their past right? So that, you know, the thematic ideas are the same. It's just that the, you know, the, the engine, or the journey through you know, that, that they take to explore those same themes is totally bonkers. You know, it's they go through a hot tub

Alex Ferrari 47:45
Instead of City Slickers. Instead of city slickers or old dogs you've got hot tub machine.

Steve Pink 47:49
Yeah. Which and so then it was like all separate then it was very self referential, right they were all we were all the characters, the filmmakers the audience, I think, I think everyone there was something about that movie where everyone, you know, everyone understands that they are self aware about the fact that it's totally bonkers. Like the notion of it itself is so ridiculous that everyone's invited to the party once they acknowledge that's the case and so when you're the filmmaker or you're the audience or even the characters themselves, you're all enjoying the same thing. Right? Right. No one's gonna take this seriously right I mean, it's all hot tub machine. They go back in time and a hot like what Yeah, it's like every just what you even the way you just said it is just makes the whole thing worthwhile. I think

Alex Ferrari 48:39
The thing that's brilliant about it is that it's so absurd that if you can't get past the title, you won't enjoy the movie. But if you can get past the title that you're in on the joke, then you're just out for the ride and that's that's exactly what that's so that's the brilliance of Hot Tub Time. As I say it it sounds

Steve Pink 49:03
Yeah, and I have to say it was really courageous of Mary and kale Yeah. cannot change the title you know like there we got a whole list of titles that wasn't consider it oh yeah, we got a whole list of titles to consider because we exactly what you said was exactly the case like when polled right they do all the market testing or whatever. And when you ask the question, would you ever see a movie called Hot Tub Time Machine? Well, I mean the answer is obviously no. Like you're not going to see a movie called Hot Tub Time Machine but then when they show them how to Time Machine along with the materials the trailer the tone, the fact that it was an ironic title in that sense that people like oh yeah, I will see that because that's ridiculous and funny and in your in on the joke but you're invited to the party called out to a time machine because precisely because it's so dumb. And so once people understood that, you know, then then every you know, then then it then it then it all But so then But then how do you get people to see it? Right? Because no one's going to admit that they're gonna go see a movie called Hot Tub Time Machine. So, you know, so hence they thought, well, maybe we should change the title. So we don't have that barrier to entry. And Mary, I remember, it's, I don't think it's my imagination. But I remember being in a meeting and I just remember her saying that, that she stood by the title that that was what was fun about it. And that, you know, she was going to take the risk to go up go to the market with that title and hope it worked. And I was like, that's super cool. She rolled the dice Yes, you roll the dice and he was just head of the studio and she was like, I'm, you know, I think that is the spirit of the movie. If you change the title, I'm not sure what you got, you know, then I think if there had been an alternative title that had been as compelling then maybe that would be different story, but there wasn't one and she wasn't willing to compromise. You know, for another title that maybe would have attracted more audiences on its face but but would have just hurt the whole enterprise and, and so yeah, so that's, it's, it's hard to be born.

Alex Ferrari 51:01
It's kind of like the weekend of Bernie's of its generation because that's another like we did keyless. I mean, even more ridiculous as the sequel if we can at Bernie's. Because at that point, you're like, how long has it been? Kind of thing.

Steve Pink 51:16
I don't know if you interviewed Clark, Duke. He, he made a really great film recently as the director and he, he actually has a brilliant Weekend at Bernie's pitch, which someday I hope gets made. Oh my god. I won't spoil it. When you can ask him about it. It's one of the most brilliant remake ideas I've ever heard for them

Alex Ferrari 51:35
To remake to go back and remake it?

Steve Pink 51:38
Do another Weekend at Bernie's. But his but his approach to it is so brilliant. It's makes it it's one of those ideas we like, Well, only if you did that, could you do it? Right?

Alex Ferrari 51:48
Like Cobra Kai

Steve Pink 51:49
Has the share sensibilities in terms of how it's approached, if you have to have clarity about it. And you go,

Alex Ferrari 51:55
Well, yeah, we'll definitely see if I can get them on the show. Because, you know, what I find funny about, you know, as we've been talking about all the projects that we you know, you've done a lot of comedy in your, in your, your filmography over the years. And I've worked with a lot of Stand Up comics, I've worked a lot of comedians and things like that. People don't realize how serious the creators of comedies take to work. You know, something like Hot Tub Time Machine, you can kind of just write off like, Oh, it's just a bunch of silly guys doing a bunch of silly stuff. But just as you're explaining it, there's a tone of seriousness behind No, this is a coming and not coming of age, but a midlife crisis film. And it's this and that. And, yes, it's insane. And we understand it's insane. But this is why we're doing so it's even when you're even when you couldn't, you know, go into the absurd, good comedies are sick or taken seriously on the back end behind the scenes. It's fascinating.

Steve Pink 52:49
Yeah, I mean, all the great comedies are really, you know, have have really kind of the emotional journeys of all the characters are central to the story, right, like in every single one like Tootsie bridesmaids, like there are, you know, obviously all Judd Apatow, ZZ work, like, the, you know, all the movies that I've done, like, I know, contrary Contrary to popular belief, comedy, filmmakers are super interested in the story of the characters, you know, the characters and so and the end what they're struggling with emotionally, we have to deal with it. It's just that, you know, the way we deal with it is through these kind of heightened ridiculous, you know, circumstances. So, yeah, we you're, you know, like, as you know, like, you were looking deep into my filmography. From Hogarth filmography, there are movies where I didn't take that into take that to heart in ways I should have in the movies. I was good. Like, there are movies that I've done that I think are far that it's like, okay, well, I'll just say like hot tub too, I think is far funnier, like pound for pound. It's actually a funnier movie, but it's not as good by virtue of the fact that that you're not isn't you don't have as much rooting interest in the characters. What they're going through emotionally isn't as you know, doesn't it doesn't have as much substance. And so after a while, you know, just jokes. You struggle. Yes, it's jokes. And so, I, you know, I have a deep love of that movie, and it's in his lunacy. But if you're just if you're going to evaluate in terms of like, the character journeys, they're not quite as good. And so like, to me that that, that, you know, that's central to every good movie, and comedy is no exception.

Alex Ferrari 54:27
You look at something like you know, 40 Year Old Virgin. I mean, there's a lot of character in there. Yeah, there's lunacy. And there's some fun stuff, and there's great situations. But you're on the journey with this guy. You're in the journey with him. If not, it just jokes get boring after a while. I mean, you could only do so many jokes and so much at a certain point.

Steve Pink 54:46
You can name every single one groundhog days like you learned not to be Yeah, he has to learn not to be a selfish person. Like we don't know why he's repeating the same day ever. And there's no magic device that we're told exists. It just happened. But we but slowly but surely we recognize that until he's not selfish, he's not he's gonna have to repeat every single day of his life and you know, Trading Places, obviously has really is a great, you know, friendship story about class and race.

Alex Ferrari 55:11
So many so many different layers of trading places are coming to America, or any of those. Any of those early Eddie Murphy movies,

Steve Pink 55:20
Wedding Crashers, you know, like, my favorite part of Wedding Crashers is when, you know, Vince was like, Come on, we'll do one more, you know, who cares? It'd be fun, that's what we do. We're Wedding Crashers, you know, we're young, and we're not that young. That was the whole movie for me, you know, I was like, oh, now I'm interested. Because yes, their time is the clock is ticking their, their, their, their lifestyle is, you know, is unsustainable. And so now I'm really in right, they're living a life that is unsustainable, and they have to change and they're either going to be they're going to be forced into a change. Or they're going to, you know, figure out how to make the change for themselves. And so like, that's the movie and that's why I just love it and think it's so brilliant. You know, the bridesmaids again, it was one of my favorites because it's you know, it's you could see the marketing material after hangover, you know, being similar to hangover, but when you see the movie, it's about a woman and a quarter life crisis, who's feels like she's about to lose her best friend to, you know, to, you know, she's about to, you know, her best friend has a new best friend. And what does it feel like to be left behind? Like, that's to me the movie. And so then, you know, hilarity ensues. So, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 56:36
Comedies is a serious business. From working on the myself. I understand. It's like, you know, timing, and that's what makes a great comedy, even something like airplane, which is absurd. It's one of my favorite comedies of all time, there's still a character you still care. I mean, and that's as absurd of a movie as you can pretty much get the original.

Steve Pink 56:59
Yeah. And, and there was a moment. I haven't seen that movie, obviously, in decades. But I think there is there is a moment where if you can be so absurd, that you're also engaged in something else. So then it doesn't have the same depth of character in the same way. But you're again, like, I guess, hot tub, you're invited to this level of absurdity, you're invited to this party, where things are so crazy and so absurd, that it has its own satirical, satirical tone, like you're like, oh, all life is absurd, right? My life is absurd. Like, my life could be airplane, you know, any second, right? Like, I could really be that any second. And so then you become the protagonist in a way to me when I watch those movies, I'm like, Oh, I'm the protagonist. Because all these you know, like, every single ridiculous thing is happening moment to moment, moment after moment after moment, is just reminding me of how absurd life is. And so I think that's a really a kind of comedy in its own right.

Alex Ferrari 57:53
Right. I mean, I picked the wrong day to stop sniffing glue. I mean, I picked the wrong day to start doing okay, like it was just so off jump about bridges, not Jeff Bridges, but Lloyd Bridges Lloyd Bridges are so brilliant. Now with all of this things we've been talking about, which has been a lot of comedies your newest film the wheel, hilarious. So tell me about the wheel. And how and why at this stage in your career. Did you want to tell this kind of story?

Steve Pink 58:26
Yeah, yeah, viewers be worn. There's not a laugh for 1000 miles.

Alex Ferrari 58:32
There's no hot tub time machines. There's no There's no ironic hitman.

Steve Pink 58:36
No, there's nothing of that there's only emotional distress. Right, I you know, it was the opportunity. You know, I always wanted you know, like the one always wants to explore what else is possible. You know what else I think I could do well. And this young producer Josh, Jason, who I work with on a commercial production work within a commercial production company brought me the script and I loved it. And the two actors that we found to play Albion Walker, Amber Mithuna and Taylor gray were extraordinary young people. And you know, Josh had had come up with financing which was you know, very you know, very it's a micro indie I mean, we spent nothing on that movie The the picture vehicles my stepfather's cheap all the furnishings in the Airbnb that the young couple stays in are from my house. You know, we shot the movie with I think there were 20 of us total of 25 of us total with with cast and we shot it in 18 days and and so I you know, to do a story, you know, where, you know, I can I can explore dramatic arcs of characters was just something I wanted to see if I could do and, and then also, you know, have the freedom to try in and create a visual world that was super small, but super resonant. And it was COVID We were one of the first COVID movies, we wrote, I think our COVID plan, like ended up in the white papers or whatever, because we were one of the first people, we were some of the first little crew to write it. And I could have never made that movie in any other time. You know, we went up to the summer camp, which was closed because of COVID. And we all quarantined, and then we, you know, we're just the sort of family up in the forest making this small and intimate little movie. And I was working with this young cinematographer Bella Gonzalez, who was extraordinary. And we just, you know, it was just a wholly different kind of experience, maybe one that I lost out on not having been a traditional film student, because I came out of theater, I didn't come out of film, so it felt very much like theater theater, or like doing a play, but I knew what to do with the camera. Now, after all these years, or at least I think I did. And so it was an extraordinary experience. And I was so super happy to make that movie.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:05
Now when when is the movie coming up?

Steve Pink 1:01:08
Movie just came out just this weekend. And so you can get in on all the platforms. It seems like it's getting good placement, you know, part of you part of you agreed to do this podcast, I'm sure it helps will help us a great deal. Oh, least all those all those listening, please go and see the movie

Alex Ferrari 1:01:29
It's in theaters it's in theaters or is going to?

Steve Pink 1:01:31
It's on streaming platforms. Okay. So Apple and Amazon and all the streaming platforms, you can go, you can go and watch it. Critics have been very nice to us. And that always feels good. To me, especially since it's obviously commented often that, you know, in the reviews that I'm a comedy director in like you had no idea that I could do that. You know, I don't know that. I knew I could do it either. I just wanted to try to do it. That's part of what we're supposed to be doing. As filmmakers. And so,

Alex Ferrari 1:02:03
But I think as filmmakers too, I mean, we, you know, things that got you know, got our juices flowing in our 20s is not what gets our juices flowing in our 40s. And you know, you want to kind of you know, you've been there done that and some things you want to like, you know what I want to kind of challenge myself, you know, I went off and made my I made a feature in like four days, and stole the entire movie at Sundance, while the while the festival was going on, about filmmakers trying to sell their movie at Sundance. I'm like, I just want to go do this for fun. And if it fails, it fails because it cost $3,000 There's no big deal.

Steve Pink 1:02:34
That's amazing. What's it called?

Alex Ferrari 1:02:36
It's called on the corner of ego and desire. And and we shot it because it's That's exactly it. And it's the most absurd. Anything you've ever heard filmmakers saying is in this movie, like the lunacy, the insanity, the delusion, I wanted to kind of make a love letter to two independent filmmakers of how crazy we are, and trying to get it so I kind of just threw it all together and shot it. And it was scary, um, to the point where my actors at the end, were like, do you have anything? I'm like, I don't know. I haven't had time to look at anything. I've been transferring stuff. But I just don't know, do you have a movie? Like, I think I have 77 minutes. Let's hope and we were lucky enough to fix 73 minutes the whole movie.

Steve Pink 1:03:19
But where can I see it?

Alex Ferrari 1:03:21
Yeah, you can see it on Amazon. It's on Amazon right now. It's on free TV, a self review on Amazon and you could rent it and all that stuff. I'll tell you about it after but, but I just use that as an example. It's kind of like you just want to go out there and see what happens. And you could do it at that budget range. Like you couldn't do that at a 40 or $50 million budget range. With big stars. It's a little bit more pressure. So I'm imagining doing at this indie level really micro budget, you get to go play, which must have been a lot a lot of fun.

Steve Pink 1:03:47
Yeah, it was a lot of fun. It was really freeing and it was cool. And you know, we had all the same problems, you know?

Alex Ferrari 1:03:54
Exactly. But you you have no money hose?

Steve Pink 1:03:58
Right! We had no money. And so yes, we just had to figure it out. Like what like, you know, like because it was COVID We had no background right so we had to I had to create frames for when there weren't people and things like that there were all there was a whole bunch of challenges but they all the challenges felt really familiar. You know, and I you know to have Amber and Taylor you know and Bethany and Nelson Lee the other two actors in the piece be so game you know, because it was so tiny and we're you know, trying to create a world where these these two couples clash and you know, are you know, transformed by their interactions in ways that transform their lives and do it in all in this very kind of, you know, intimate way was a great was great challenge and was great fun. I'd like to do more of it.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:49
Now, I'm gonna ask you a few questions as well my guess. What advice would you give a filmmaker or screenwriter trying to break into the business today?

Steve Pink 1:04:59
I I would say that, and this is true of me even despite my lucky entrance, you know, the thing that you love and inspired by the most or the is the thing that the thing that you should, that you know more about than anyone else, like, there's this thought that well, you know, you're not in the business, so you don't know anything, right. But what you, you know, you don't know anything, anything in quotes means all the things that, you know, are the complexities and nuances of, of being in the movie business. But what you do know is what your idea is, you have command of your idea, and you have command over what story you want to tell. And you have, and if you have the passion for it, and the relentless, you know, energy to fight to make it happen. That's, that's what your strength is like, you are as important a filmmaker, frankly, and in terms of being the author of your own story is anyone else's like so that's what you have to offer. You have to offer your creative sensibility and your perspective, right? I mean, I felt very, maybe over I'm sure, I was massively overconfident. But I felt very strongly about my, my perspective, you know, even gross point blank, which we had a great which we had, you know, this glide path to making, I still had a very specific point of view, I was like, you know, this is a world in which, you know, if you like, my kind of fundamental idea for that was like, for John is like, well, if you can be all that you could be in America, you become an assassin, like because then you're you can be morally ambiguous, right? You can be amoral, you make a ton of money, you're your own boss, like what does America churn out as people like? Well, they turn out assassins who end up really lonely and isolated, like, that's what but you know, I'm not saying that's my perspective, then my perspective was like, that is one version of what kind of human being comes out of American culture, right? And that very specific point of view. And so all that, and so then all the ridiculous hypocrisy is of that, and all the funny things that flow from that, like a really erotic character, and all those things, that was just something that I could I could express, you know, simply present to you today. And at that time, it was just a funny way to approach an antihero, right. So, you know, and I was convicted. So then when people said, Oh, well, you know, he can only killed is a good example, I think, you know, he can only kill good, you can only kill bad people. But that was like a rule that was trying to be imposed upon us. And we resisted it, because we're like, no, that's, like, only failing that people that's a American hero. Like, he is a murderer, he doesn't kill the bad people, he's he's a freelancer, he gets paid on people, he, he in fact, is deliberately taking a position that he doesn't care. What kind of person he's killing is it's his job to kill them. And so, you know, that was something that we felt strongly about, that we fought for constantly. And that helped shape but the tone of the movie was so. So I think that, you know, I would tell young filmmaker to have confidence that that thing that is, you know, waking you up every day and driving you to go and get made is the thing that you are the authority of and that you and that's what you'd have to offer. And that's a strength that's not you know, you know, you know, I think when you walk into rooms, you know, it's not you sure you're you're asking people to pay attention and you're asking people to, to look at your work and embrace you, but at the same time, you're the one who has something to offer something that we haven't seen before. And that's what keeps you know, our creative industry happening

Alex Ferrari 1:08:46
Fantastic answer.

Steve Pink 1:08:47
That would be my that would be my rant. Um, if they make it this far in the podcast, they'll get it maybe you want to put that as a side clip. Never get to this point in the podcasts.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:59
I've done three and a half the record is three and a half hours so you're still way you're good, you're good. Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Steve Pink 1:09:12
Lesson that took me longest to learn patience, you know, I am patients with myself, you know, patients, even with my ideas, patients with everything, you know, and I'm even try to be patient when I'm shooting, you know, like, I'll you know, the first frame of any particular day I'm shooting, you know, that in the very first setup of any given day, I have to remind myself to be patient, like it's not going to happen instantly, you know, be patient I have to see what happens in the frame. You know, we have to we have to create the thing that we are here to create, and it's not just going to happen and you can't be impatient, so I feel like even so you have to have patience on every level, whether it's shooting, whether it's a day shoot or hoping your movie gets financed or being patient that, you know, your that a good idea is going to come to you, you know, and you're not a complete failure who has no good ideas and should have never been in the movie business. Like you need so that I would say that's what I that I need to learn in life. And certainly in my career and I'm, I'm, I'm getting better at

Alex Ferrari 1:10:19
And three of your favorite films of all time.

Steve Pink 1:10:22
I mean, you know, that's the question. Everyone's like, what I mean, I'll just keep rattling off

Alex Ferrari 1:10:27
Three, just three that comes to mind right now at this moment.

Steve Pink 1:10:31
They Shoot Horses, Don't They? Sydney Pollack's first film. Herald in law Maude. Mal asked me and wow, I mean, cuz I only get three huh? Pulp Fiction.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:50
That's all very good choices, sir. Steve man, it's been a pleasure talking to you, brother. Congrats on all your success. And I wish you the best with your new film the wheel. And thank you for making us laugh over these over these years, man. I appreciate you man. Thanks again.

Steve Pink 1:11:04
Yeah, man. Thanks. My pleasure and Congratulations. This is a great podcast and I'm glad that you're doing it.

Top 20 Female Director Podcasts (Emmy® & Sundance Winners)

IFH always like to highlight a diverse group of filmmakers from all walks of life. We put together the top female filmmakers we have had the pleasure of speaking to on the show. These conversations are inspiring and full of knowledge bombs that anyone wanting to be a filmmaker could take something away from. Enjoy!

Click here to subscribe on Apple,  Spotify, & Youtube.

1. Marta Kaufman

Marta Kauffman is an Emmy- and Golden Globe-winning television writer, director, producer and showrunner behind the hit series Friends and Grace & Frankie. After graduating from Brandeis University, Kauffman got her big break alongside David Crane when their pilots Dream On (1990) and The Powers That Be (1992) were greenlit. The pair then launched Bright/Kauffman/Crane Productions with Kevin Bright and became the trio that created the iconic sitcom Friends.

2. Kyra Sedgwick

Kyra Sedgwick is an award-winning actress, producer and director. She is best known for her Emmy and Golden Globe-winning role as Deputy Chief Brenda Leigh Johnson on the TNT crime drama “The Closer” and most recently starred on the ABC comedy “Call Your Mother.” She recently directed the feature film SPACE ODDITY, which stars Kyle Allen and Alexandra Shipp.

Her film roles include THE EDGE OF SEVENTEEN, THE POSSESSION, THE GAME PLAN, SECONDHAND LIONS, WHAT’S COOKING, PHENOMENON, HEART AND SOULS, SOMETHING TO TALK ABOUT, BORN ON THE FOURTH OF JULY and SINGLES.

3. Eva Longoria

Eva Longoria has long established herself as one of the most sought after television directors in Hollywood. Named by Variety as one of their most anticipated directors of 2021, Longoria continues to hone her craft, seek new projects, and expand opportunities for others by paving the way for future women and minority producers, directors and industry leaders in Hollywood and beyond.

Her strong work ethic coupled with her passion for storytelling has led to a pivotal moment as she prepares for the release of her feature film directorial debut with Flamin’ Hot. She recently wrapped production for the highly anticipated Searchlight biopic about the story of Richard Montañez and the spicy Flamin’ Hot Cheetos snack for which she beat out multiple high profile film directors vying for the job.

Eva became well known worldwide thanks to Desperate Housewives, where she played a main character, Gabrielle Solis.

4. Katie Aselton

Today on the show we have Katie Aselton. She is an acclaimed actor and filmmaker based in Los Angeles. She may be best known for her starring role as Jenny in the FX comedy “The League.” Aselton can next be seen in Bill Burr’s comedy Old Dads. She was recently seen in The Unholy, opposite Jeffrey Dean Morgan, and appeared in Tiller Russell’s Silk Road, with Jason Clarke. Aselton was also seen in the second season of the hit Apple + series “The Morning Show.”

5. Zoe Lister-Jones

Our guest today is a triple threat. Actress, filmmaker, and writer, Zoe Lister-Jones, who made headways in 2017 with her all-female crew directorial debut, Band-Aid. The decision was inspired to foster new creative experiences amidst the staggering inequity on sets. A couple who can’t stop fighting embarks on a last-ditch effort to save their marriage: turning their fights into songs and starting a band.  The comedy-drama film, starring Zoe, Jesse Williams, and her New Girl co-star, Hannah Simone premiered at the 2017 Sundance Festival. 

Some of Zoe’s most known acting roles include some of your favorite sitcoms like New Girl, Whitney, or Life In Pieces. I have watched Life in Pieces with my family many times and it remains a favorite. Zoe’s love for performing and writing goes back to high school which set the foundation for a scholarship ride in NYU. Even though the film is what she’s most known for now, Zoe has a background in music and theater. In 2009 she co-wrote and produced, her first screenplay, Breaking Upwards with Daryl Wein on a $ 15,000 budget. The film explores a young New York couple who, battling codependency, strategizes their own breakup. 

6. Naomi McDougall Jones

Today on the show we have award-winning filmmaker, actress, author, speaker, women in film activist and force of nature Naomi McDougall Jones. Many of the IFH Tribe might remember Naomi from her first appearance on the show talking about her distribution adventures with her film Bite Me. You can listen to that episode here: Making Money Self Distributing Your Indie Film with Naomi McDougall Jones

Bite Me, is a subversive romantic comedy about a real-life vampire and the IRS agent who audits her. The film premiered at Cinequest, won Best Feature Film at VTXIFF, and then went on to the innovative, paradigm-shifting Joyful Vampire Tour of America in summer 2019, a 51-screening, 40-city, three-month, RV-fueled eventized tour that involved Joyful Vampire Balls, capes, a docu-series and a whole lot of joy. 

Naomi’s first book, The Wrong Kind of Women: Inside Our Revolution to Dismantle the Gods of Hollywood, is now available wherever books are sold in hardcover, audiobook, and e-book. It debuted as the #1 New Release on Amazon. It is a brutally honest look at the systemic exclusion of women in film—an industry with massive cultural influence—and how, in response, women are making space in cinema for their voices to be heard.

7. Sonja O’Hara

Sonja O’Hara is an Emmy-nominated queer writer, director and actor represented by WME and Management 360. She was chosen as one of the “10 Filmmakers To Watch” by Independent Magazine, selected by a jury from MovieMaker Magazine, the Sundance Institute and Austin Film Festival. (Past recipients include Barry Jenkins of MOONLIGHT.)

Sonja just directed two back to back features which are currently completing post-production: MID-CENTURY, a provocative thriller starring Stephan Lang (DON’T BREATHE) and two time Academy Award® nominee Bruce Dern, produced by Jeremy Walton (THE INVENTOR with Marion Cotillard), and ROOT LETTER, an adaptation of the popular Japanese PlayStation game, written by Tribeca Film Festival Narrative Prize winner David Ebeltoft and starring Danny Ramirez of THE FALCON AND THE WINTER SOLDIER.

8. Katie Cokinos

We are joined by indie film icon and Oscar® nominated writer/director Richard Linklater. Richard was one of the filmmakers who helped to launch the independent film movement that we know today with his classic 1991 indie film Slacker. As a bonus, we will not only dive into the extraordinary career of Richard Linklater but also that of collaborator and longtime friend writer/director Katie Cokinos, the filmmaker behind the film I Dream Too Much. 

9. Nora Fingscheidt

Nora Fingscheidt was born in 1983 in Germany and spent her youth partly in Argentina. From 2003 onward she participated in the development of the self-organized film school filmArche in Berlin. At the same time, she completed her training as an acting coach under Sigrid Andersson. Nora studied fiction directing at the Film Academy Baden-Württemberg.

10. Krystin Ver Linden

Today on the show we have writer and director Krystin Ver Linden. She has always steered the course of her career and her life with her love for film, and it shows through her work. She was recently chosen as one of Variety’s2022 “10 Directors to Watch,” a coveted honor. Ver Linden’s script Ride sold to Lionsgate with Joey Soloway attached to direct and was featured on the Black List. She went on to sell numerous scripts as well as the pitch Love in Vain, an unconventional biopic centering around blues music pioneer Robert Johnson. The pitch is set up at Paramount with Lorenzo di Bonaventura, Mike Menchel and multiple-Grammy-winning recording artist Lionel Richie producing.

11. Lissette Feliciano

Today on the show we have writerdirector and producer Lissette Feliciano. She is a Tribeca Film Institute AT&T Untold Stories grant recipient, was named as one of Shoot Magazine’s new directors to watch, and has served as an ambassador for The Wraps Power Women Summit.

Her production company Look at the Moon Pictures develops original content that shines a hero’s lens on underrepresented groups, joining the ranks of creators filling the market gap in storytelling for a new young multicultural audience.

Under Lissette’s leadership, Look at the Moon was among the first production companies to mandate 50% BIPOC representation across leadership positions on and off-camera – a metric they are proud to consistently achieve. An avid supporter of young women’s education, she sits on several committees for an all-girls high school serving low-income students in her hometown of the Mission District of San Francisco.

12. Chloe Okuno

Today on the show we have writer/director Chloe Okuno. Chloe is a graduate of UC Berkeley with a masters degree from the American Film Institute Conservatory. There she received the Franklin J. Shaffner Fellow Award, and directed the award-winning horror short film SLUT.  Her recent work includes writing a remake of “Audrey Rose” for Orion Pictures and writing and directing a segment of the anthology series V/H/S/94. She’s the director of this year’s Sundance feature film Watcher.

13. Carlson Young

Today on the show we have writer, director and actress Carlson Young. Carlson is the creator of the new film The Blazing World. Ever since Margaret (Carlson Young) was six years old, she has been haunted by the memory of watching her sister drown during an explosive fight between her parents. As a young woman, she slides further into her twisted inner life, ultimately finding herself on the brink of suicide. Through an epic journey down the smokiest and scariest corridors of her imagination, she tries to exorcise the demons pushing her closer and closer to the edge.

The Blazing World is Carlson Young’s debut feature; it is based on her short of the same name, which premiered at the 2018 Sundance Film Festival. Young brings to life in striking vibrancy an internality that is at once darkly beautiful and entirely terrifying.

14. Jen McGowan

Today on the show we have writer/director Jen McGowan on the show. We discuss the state of women directors in Indie FIlm, her new film Rust Creek and what it is really like to be a female director, from her perspective in today’s world.

Jen McGowan is a director based in Los Angeles. Her first feature KELLY & CAL (Juliette Lewis & Cybill Shepherd) premiered at SXSW where she won the Gamechanger Award. The film was released theatrically by IFC Films to rave reviews. McGowan got her start with award-winning short films, CONFESSIONS OF A LATE BLOOMER and TOUCH, both of which played at over a hundred festivals worldwide. TOUCH qualified for the Oscar when it won the Florida Film Festival.

15. Diane Bell

Diane Bell is a screenwriter and director. Made for less than $150k, her first feature film, OBSELIDIA, premiered in Dramatic Competition at Sundance and won two awards. The film went on to win further awards at festivals around the world, and to be nominated for two prestigious Independent Spirit Awards. Her second film, BLEEDING HEART, a drama starring Jessica Biel and Zosia Mamet, premiered at the Tribeca Film Festival and is widely available. She is currently in post on her third feature, OF DUST AND BONES.

She has written numerous commissioned and optioned scripts, including two with renowned director John McTiernan (the director of Die Hard and The Hunt for Red October). In addition to writing and directing films, Diane with her producing partner Chris Byrne is a founder of the Rebel Heart Film Workshop program, in which she teaches step by step how to make a standout indie film. She also teaches at Denver’s Lighthouse Writer’s Workshop. She is passionate about sharing her knowledge and honest experiences of filmmaking so that up and coming filmmakers can make better movies and create sustainable careers.

16. Megan Petersen & Hannah Black

Today on the show we have directors Megan Petersen & Hannah Black. They are the winners of the Seed and Spark/Duplass Brother Hometown Heros Contest. Here more about this remarkable contest.

Join us for an opportunity to have your feature film executive produced by Duplass Brothers Productions, Salem Street Entertainment, and UnLTD Productions and be eligible for a total of $50,000 in no-interest loans for your narrative or documentary feature. Whether you’re from a small town, the suburbs or a special corner of a major city, now is the time to bring your hometown-centered story to the screen.

Their film is called DROUGHT. Join Sam, her Autistic brother Carl, estranged sister Lillian & friend Lewis, as they try to navigate life in a small town. It’s 1993 and the south is in the worst drought in history but Carl is fascinated by weather. Hoping for a better life, they steal an ice-cream truck to become storm chasers.

We sit down and discuss all things indie film, what it was like to direct this film while having the guidance of indie film legends like Jay and Mark Duplass.

Enjoy my inspirational conversation with Megan Petersen & Hannah Black.

17. Clarissa Jacobson

So you made a short film, now WTF do you do? Today guest is filmmaker Clarissa Jacobson and she is the perfect person to guide you through the rough waters of getting your short film out to the world. Clarissa is the writerproducer and creator of the multi-award-winning comedy/horror short – Lunch Ladies – based on her feature. The film garnered forty-five awards and is distributed all over the world.

Her follow up short – A Very Important Film – also got distribution. Her optioned feature screenplayLand of Milk and Honey, is in development with Elizabeth Avellan and Gisberg Bermudez. In addition, Clarissa wrote a book – I Made a Short Film Now WTF Do I Do With It: A Guide to Film Festivals, Promotion, and Surviving the Ride.

18. Rebecca Eskreis

I am pleased to have on the show this today, the gracious Rebecca Eskreis.

Rebecca has had a thrilling path to her dreams of filmmaking. Now a directorwriterproducer, teacher, and film consultant whose projects have been recognized by huge platforms like SXSW, TIFF, SIFF, deadCenter, Savannah, Munich, Stockholm, and film Thessaloniki festivals, she’s surpassed her childhood dream.

Last year, Rebecca wrote, produced, and directed her latest film, What Breaks The Icea coming of age thriller about two 15-year-old girls, Sammy and Emily, who hark from different worlds but strike up a quick and deep friendship during summer break in 1998, set against the backdrop of a world consumed by the Monica Lewinsky scandal. But what should be the best summer of their lives takes an unexpected turn when they become accidental accomplices in a fatal crime.

What Breaks The Ice was her directorial debut project. For which she was awarded the Sandra Adair/Empowering a Billion Women Grant for promising female filmmakers from the Austin Film Society, and was selected for the Austin Film Society’s Artist Intensive, hosted annually by Richard Linklater. The project was also a finalist for the 2016 Mayor’s Office of New York/Women in Film/Producers Guild Financing Lab. The film will be released by Cinedigm in the fall of 2021.

19. Heather Turman

I am delighted to have as a guest on the show today, Filmmaker, comedian and podcaster, Heather Turman. She’s the creator and writer of the feature filmStuck, starring Joel McHale, Heather Matarazzo, and SNL’s Chris Redd. And the host of the Indie Women Podcast on Youtube.

Darby finds herself in trouble with the law and is sentenced to house arrest. Now she must serve 30 days in the home she used to share with her ex-boyfriend, which he now shares with his new fiancee.

Heather has appeared in films like La-la Land, or the 2019 TV series, The Room Actors: Where are they now. At age 18, Heather moved to Los Angeles to pursue her passion for entertainment. And she’s since built a successful career as a comedian, writer, and producer — one that has taken her touring to over 75 cities across the USA. She is an LA Westside Showdown two times top-finalist and has appeared on the FOX series Laughs and the Seed & Spark original Everything Is Fine! stand-up comedy special.

20. Lynn Novick

Since seeing one of her first documentaries, I was transfixed by her power of storytelling. Our guest is an Emmy and Peabody award-winning documentary filmmaker, Lynn Novick—a formidable and respected PBS documentary filmmaker with thirty-plus years of experience in the business.

Her archival mini and docu-series documentaries bring historically true events to the big screen alongside her filmmaking partner, Ken Burns. 

You’ve most likely seen some of her landmark documentary films. The likes of Vietnam (2017), TV Mini-Series documentary The Civil War (1990), College Behind Bars (2019), eighteen hours mini-series, Baseball (2010), and many more. All are available on PBS Documentaries Prime Video Channel.

Just this year, the pair premiered their latest co-produced and co-directed three parts documentary on PBD—recapitulating the life, loves, and labors of Ernest Hemingway. The series explores the painstaking process through which Hemingway created some of the most important works of fiction in American letters. 

Bonus: Judy Weston

Today guest is the legendary writer and educator Judith Weston. Her book Directing Actors: Creating Memorable Performances for Film & TelevisionandThe Film Director’s Intuition: Script Analysis and Rehearsal Techniquesis a must-read for any film director.

Judith consults one-on-one with directors and writer-directors of film and television as they prepare to bring their projects to life. Some of her students include Alejandro Iñárritu, director of The Revenant, Academy Award winner for Best Director, and Birdman, Academy Award winner for Best Picture and Best Director; Ava DuVernay, nominated for 16 Emmys and six Critics Choice Awards, and Selma, nominated for Best Picture Oscar; Steve McQueen, director of Best Picture Academy Award winner12 Years a SlaveTaika Waititi, writer-director of Jojo RabbitThor RagnarokHunt for the Wilderpeople and many more.

Literally thousands of film and television directors, screenwriters, writer-directors, and actors around the world have attended Judith’s workshops or consulted with her in preparation for their projects. Judith’s reputation and influence are international and well-established.

After 30 years of teaching workshops and classes, Judith, in 2015, closed her studio space and shifted her focus to one-on-one consultation for directors and writer-directors.

Her ground-breaking book Directing Actors was published in 1996. Judith’s second book, The Film Director’s Intuition, was published in 2003. Both books are written from the point of view of film directors. And directors all over the world have come to rely on them. But so many others have told me they have found them helpful—screenwriters, actors, professionals in film, television, photography, theater—and really anyone who wants to live creatively. She recently undertook a thorough revision and updating of her signature work, Directing Actors (FREE AUDIOBOOK VERSION), in order to make it available as an Audiobook. Judith herself is the narrator.

Enjoy my insightful conversation with Judith Weston.

IFH 607: From Sundance Hit The Puffy Chair to Mack & Rita with Katie Aselton

Today on the show we have Katie Aselton. She is an acclaimed actor and filmmaker based in Los Angeles. She may be best known for her starring role as Jenny in the FX comedy “The League.” Aselton can next be seen in Bill Burr’s comedy Old Dads. She was recently seen in The Unholy, opposite Jeffrey Dean Morgan, and appeared in Tiller Russell’s Silk Road, with Jason Clarke. Aselton was also seen in the second season of the hit Apple + series “The Morning Show.”

Aselton’s breakout acting role came in the indie darling The Puffy Chair, directed by Mark and Jay Duplass. The film was nominated for two Independent Spirit Awards. Aselton’s other feature credits include Book Club, Father Figures, She Dies Tomorrow, Synchronic and Bombshell. Her small-screen work includes “Legion,” “Animals,” “Togetherness,” “Curb Your Enthusiasm,” “Veep,” “The Office,” “Room 104” and “Casual.”

Aselton made her directorial debut with The Freebie, in which she also stars. The film premiered to much critical acclaim at the 2010 Sundance Film Festival and was released theatrically by Phase 4. She also directed and starred in the survivor thriller Black Rock, opposite Kate Bosworth and Lake Bell. The film premiered at the 2012 Sundance Film Festival and was released by LD Entertainment.

Katie’s new film is Mack & Rita starring the legendary Diane Keaton.

When 30-year-old self-proclaimed homebody Mack Martin (Elizabeth Lail) reluctantly joins a Palm Springs bachelorette trip for her best friend Carla (Taylour Paige), her inner 70-year-old is released — literally. The frustrated writer and influencer magically transforms into her future self: “Aunt Rita” (Oscar winner Diane Keaton). Freed from the constraints of other people’s expectations, Rita comes into her own, becoming an unlikely social media sensation and sparking a tentative romance with Mack’s adorable dog-sitter, Jack (Dustin Milligan). A sparkling comedy with a magical twist, Mack & Rita celebrates being true to yourself at any age.

Enjoy my conversation with Katie Aselton.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Katie Aselton 0:00
Really spent 10 years since black rocks sitting with that and thinking about the kind of director I want to be in the way, I want to leave a set and. And with Mack and Rita I lead with kindness and gratitude, and respect, and, and humility. And I think that there is nothing more powerful than someone saying, I don't know. Let's figure that out together.

Alex Ferrari 0:27
This episode is brought to you by the best selling book Rise of the Filmtrepreneur how to turn your independent film into a money making business. Learn more at filmbizbook.com I'd like to welcome to the show, Katie Aselton. How you doing Katie?

Katie Aselton 0:44
Hey, I'm doing really good. How are you doing?

Alex Ferrari 0:44
I'm doing great! Thank you so much for coming on the show. I've been watching you since the days of the Puffy Chair.

Katie Aselton 0:46
Ohh you just watched me get old right?

Alex Ferrari 0:56
I hate to tell you we all do it.

Katie Aselton 1:03
I just happen to do it on camera.

Alex Ferrari 1:05
I was I was gonna say that's so interesting. Like you like my kids. See some videos of me when I was a kid. Like when I was younger. And they've seen pictures of me younger, but they literally see their you know, yeah, you and Mark just grow old. Better, better, I would say yes. You know, we're just evolved. We're evolving. Exactly. So no, I've been and I'm a huge Morning Show fan. I love the morning show. Love the money show was such such a great show. So my first question to you, Katie is how and why in God's green earth did you want to get into this insanity that is called the film industry.

Katie Aselton 1:40
I know. I grew up in Maine on a on the coasts, like past the tourist parts of Maine, like real main. And it wasn't a town where people left to go to Hollywood. So it wasn't like I was following in the footsteps of anyone else I knew. I just got a wild hair, that this was what I was meant to do. And I had like, just big dreams that I kind of kept to myself for a lot of my early years. And finally, I couldn't keep them in anymore. I don't know. I'm like the kid who? And look, I think we all do this. But I was definitely the kid who in everything I watched, like put myself and I was I'm like a super empath. And so I would like things like really got me and I would really just throw myself into every story and, and my siblings were all much older than me. So I was essentially kind of an only child living in like a really rural area. So my sense of imagination was always very full. And yeah, I just I don't know, it just I don't know, that's what lit me up very early, but then had no opportunity for that. You know, like, if you look in my high school yearbook like I'm in the drama club. There were no productions.

Alex Ferrari 3:01
So what did the so what is the drama club? Do the has no productions just hanging around?

Katie Aselton 3:05
Yearbook picture every year I don't know. It was the weirdest thing. And that is that we're the drama program like they used to put on productions. I think they put her on productions. After I left. It was just my four year stint like nothing. Wow, you're getting Uruguay gets high school.

Alex Ferrari 3:27
Wow. So obviously you've set out to the university. You said, hey, I want to be an actress. Yeah, I want to get to the film industry. And then obviously Hollywood just called and said, Hey, what would you like to do? Oh, my baby, what do you need? Let me help you. How can I? How can I help you? Not sure what you got? So what was the stage from when you want the dream? To go to New York? Did you go to LA? Where did you go?

Katie Aselton 3:53
I went to Boston.

Alex Ferrari 3:56
Obviously the I think the third biggest action in the country.

Katie Aselton 4:02
My family, my parents, God bless them. We're like, you need to go to school in New England for at least two years. And I think their thought was, you know, I would fall in love with a program or a boy or the city or, or just forget that I kind of thought maybe I wanted to move to LA to be an actor. Um, but I didn't. I didn't and while I was in Boston, I went to be you. In my denial of my dreams and my, my sort of need to become to like be perceived as like a serious, like, contender in the world. I told my parents I wanted to go into journalism. I was like, that's the closest I think I can get there's a camera involved. I'm still like a personality. And so I applied and and, and got into Boston University, which has a fantastic journalism program that I absolutely hated that I read Howard Stern's book and I was like, This is gonna be great. Not for me, because I actually just wanted to be Holly Hunter, and actually a real journalist. So I took acting classes on the side and really, really loved it and, and, like, kept looking at my clock and was like, Alright guys, and we're at the end of the two years, and you said you promised and they, they stuck by their word and they did it. And at 19 I moved out, not knowing anyone in Los Angeles and I scoured the pages of backstage West, as early actors did as you do before the internet. And I found a play and I sent in my headshot, and I got a play that was in Sunland. Now, I don't know if your listeners are familiar with Southern California.

Alex Ferrari 5:58
Yes. It's just a bit. It's a bit out of LA. It's a bit just a slight

Katie Aselton 6:05
And north and there's nothing there. It's like industrial parks. I landed a play called at a place called Play us at the foothills. And

Alex Ferrari 6:19
That sounds like a place where that's where a horror movie starts. The play house of the foot that you said sounds like something where a horror movie would start?

Katie Aselton 6:26
No, I and if you saw it, it definitely looks like a place where we're moving. It should take place. They didn't even give me the full script. Like I just got my scenes, but I was like in it. I loved it. I was so excited. My college roommate came out to visit. And this is where the story gets. Gets a little sensational. But I'm promising you right now this is all true. Because she came out we were 19 we didn't have fake IDs. So we were going to go out to celebrate what were we going to do? We're going to go to Mel's diner on Sunset to celebrate get some strawberry shortcake. So we did and while we were there, I look up. We were sitting outside. I look in the windows and I was like oh my god. It said afterwards that Dracula do like, what is his name? I can't remember his name. And Rita's, like, my roommate was like James Woods. And I was like, yeah, it's James.

Alex Ferrari 7:25
Do you ever play track?

Katie Aselton 7:29
Our one of my. I think he did.

Alex Ferrari 7:34
We'll have to look it up. I don't I'm not sure if James was playing

Katie Aselton 7:37
In my head at 19. I was like, he played Dracula. I think he did. And now, I was like, I don't know. But he's looking at us. And I think he's gonna come over and talk to us. And she was like, now what does he want to he doesn't want to talk to us. And I was like, I don't know. But he's walking to the table right now. And he was like, Hey, are you an actor? And I was like, yeah, no, I'm trying to be. And he was like, Well, my name is Jimmy, my friend. Here's a manager and he thinks you have a good look. And through that manager, I ended up getting my first agent. And that is how my career was born.

Alex Ferrari 8:10
So you were you were discovered in Mel's diner? Is that is that?

Katie Aselton 8:16
Yeah, like it was 1949. Like I was Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 8:22
That's amazing. That's an amazing story.

Katie Aselton 8:27
Why an ultimate scumbag?

Alex Ferrari 8:31
Hey, welcome to Hollywood.

Katie Aselton 8:33
Listen, you just gotta find ways to just make those stories work for you.

Alex Ferrari 8:39
So then, Alright, so now you have an agent, you have a manager? And then how did you get involved with this very big budget film puppy chair? This is at least 100 million if I'm not mistaken.

Katie Aselton 8:50
Oh, yes, it was. I mean, all the financing for that movie came from Mark's parents.

Alex Ferrari 9:00
By the way, what was the what was the official budget of that film? Because there's a lot of myths about that film. Do you remember it's there?

Katie Aselton 9:05
Yeah, we can say I think it was like 20,000 or something like that. Right? Yeah, that's low. But it's so much more than the budget of my first film, the freebie which was 10,000.

Alex Ferrari 9:16
So you have one up on marketing.

Katie Aselton 9:20
But I, you know, so there, I spent a couple of years in LA, like, really, I like putting myself out there auditioning. Getting some crap roles that I really wasn't graded and didn't love but I knew I loved doing it. So it was at that point, a couple of years in that I was like, I'm actually going to go to theater school. I had started dating Mark already, Mark was in an indie rock band at the time,

Alex Ferrari 9:44
And really quickly for everyone listening because just in case they don't know. You're married to Mark Duplass, who is the director of puffy chair and many other independent films, brothers, yes. And half of the Duplass brothers, as well. Jay and mark. So yeah, just so everyone He knows who we are. Because we just keep saying mark like you and I know,

Katie Aselton 10:02
And everyone knows, I think everyone, anyone who's listening to your podcast is gonna like they know, but just in case. So we've been dating, he was an indie rock guy, not a filmmaker, not in movies at all. And while we were dating, he, he did it, they did their short movie, this is John. And then after that, we and while I was in school in New York, we did the short scrapple. And that went to Sundance, both of those went to Sundance. And so then the day after I finished my, my theater school program, we went into production on the puffy chair.

Alex Ferrari 10:44
And, and the rest, as they say, is history. So I have, so I have to ask you, because, you know, during that time, I mean, there was obviously that film movement that you know, which I know a lot of the filmmakers in that world don't like to use the word mumble core, but because it was coined by some, some journalists, but for lack of a better term, I'm sorry,

Katie Aselton 11:04
Growth journalist isn't.

Alex Ferrari 11:07
Exactly. So but. But during that time, there was a group of filmmakers doing this kind of style of filmmaking. And in looking back at those kinds of films, you know, when I, I mean, if you were I mean, puffy chair, and mark, and Jay and Lynn Shelton, and all that they were just such huge inspirations for me, for my first featured I didn't, I don't know, a few years, a few years ago. But the thing that was interesting about that, that kind of that movement of filmmaking, it was just very run and gone, it was shot with video cameras, I have to ask you, because you had been at least in productions at this point as an actress. So you're on the set of puffy chair? What do you think as an actress going, it's this kind of work? Like, there's no lighting? Is that kind of like raw? It's like, what did you think about that?

Katie Aselton 11:53
It was really interesting, because, you know, in there in the early years in our relationship, Mark would see me in LA with my friends who are all like, all actors who are out of work. And he's like, I don't understand why you guys just don't grab a camera and make something and I was like, okay, that's cute. Like, that's not how it's done. Okay, like, you need a studio, you need a trailer you need, you know, it was like, just an idea, because that is what we were told was always just how it was how it was done. And it's because it had to be that way. Back in the days when you're shooting film, right? But right around this time is where everything started to change with technology and things became so much more accessible and affordable. And I mean, God, you look back at some of those early mumblecore movies, and they look they're garbage. They look so

Alex Ferrari 12:49
So much so much. Joseph Jones Jones, just Weinsberg stuff. I look back on what how did that get released

Katie Aselton 12:54
I know, but at the time, like no one cared, because it was you were getting cameras in the hands of young artists. And so it was so exciting to hear and see young voices at work. And so it was, I mean, yes, there were definitely moments on puffy chair and Scrabble. And this is John where I was like, this is like, never gonna fly. But also there's something so incredibly freeing in like, first off, not kind of knowing the rules that you don't even know you're breaking. Right? So there's that whole idea of like, know the rules before you break them or not, or just go from the gut and make a piece of art that you're excited about with people you love. And by the way, for anyone looking to go do this, you absolutely should because even if it fails and doesn't go anywhere you learn so much. So as long as you're not, you know, bleeding money doing it you should absolutely be getting out there with your friends with a camera and going and making some fun stuff.

Alex Ferrari 14:01
And the technology today is so much more advanced than what was going on you reshot you shooting mini DV I mean I shot my first film on mini DV dv x 100 A if when it kicked out a little bit I got a sonic

Katie Aselton 14:14
I want to say that might have been what we did Pepe cheer on.

Alex Ferrari 14:17
Yeah, it was one that was the it was the first time you could get a film look out of a real

Katie Aselton 14:23
Very loose but at the time

Alex Ferrari 14:26
I look but at the time it was a 24 p camera and look gorgeous for the it's because all you had is like the 30 unit video cameras compared to so it's like it's beta canon or oh my god it looks like film.

Katie Aselton 14:40
So like with puffy chair no lights. We had one guy who did sound and like would occasionally hold a sheet up over like her slate. It was all we had we could do

Alex Ferrari 14:55
You just run a gun. So that was that was fun because I was wanting to ask actresses and actors who Were in those early movies like, I got, I mean, before it was a thing, and you were there at the beginning of it, you had to go like this. am I wasting my time? It's, um, am I just doing this because I love mark, like.

Katie Aselton 15:11
And I'll also say, like, you, you have those moments in there where you're like, Oh, it feels really good.

Alex Ferrari 15:18
It's wrong. It was wrong.

Katie Aselton 15:20
It was, there were some moments in the puffy chair that I still look back on. And like, you know, actors talk about like, it was in the flow, but like, you have this moment, and you're like, that was one of the more authentic moments I've ever had. As an actor,

Alex Ferrari 15:37
It's really interesting to go back and look at those those films because there is this kind of kinetic raw energy to them. And even though they're technically not sound at all, at all,

Katie Aselton 15:50
But their hearts are so pure and bright.

Alex Ferrari 15:54
And it completely goes through and it is pretty remarkable. And of course, you named it something so marketable. Like the puffy chair, which

Katie Aselton 16:04
When you tell what a movie is about, just by hearing the title, it's about a puffy chair was about.

Alex Ferrari 16:10
I remember during those years, I was I was hearing the rumbles of puffy chair, and I was like, hell is the off the chair. And I'm like, why is this? Oh, it's actually a puffy chair, like, and I remember thinking to myself before because this is, it wasn't pre internet, obviously. But it was internet like, like the early internet. So it wasn't like there was a lot of information out there about the movie. So I remember what like hearing about it. Like, I don't even there was no YouTube yet. 2004 2005 is when YouTube started. So the trailer wasn't out.

Katie Aselton 16:41
Now, it wasn't. I don't think we had a trailer until years later. Yeah, until like, Finally, eventually, someday ended up on the apple. And that's a very sweet person who just like cut it together for for fun.

Alex Ferrari 16:56
Now why? I mean, when did this film when the movie came out and went to Sundance? And were you surprised at the reaction? I mean, I mean, that's the question. I was like, did you know it was going to be hit? I knew you didn't know. But it's so overwhelming, because

Katie Aselton 17:10
I will say in the test screening. When we were testing puppy chair, I cried. Because I was like, this is awful. I also like never as an actor had never been privy to a test screening, right? So like, when moments fall flat when things like aren't playing well. And like, I never should have been in that room. Thank God, I was now that I'm making movies like I'm so happy. I know what it is. But my God, I was like, this is awful. I never should have done this and might end our relationship. This is a real a real stinker.

Alex Ferrari 17:48
By the way, did you have a conversation with him about this afterwards?

Katie Aselton 17:52
Yeah. And he was like, David, it's a test screening like every year asking people to critique the movie. They're like, they're, they're there to criticize it to make it better. So you gotta tear down to build back up again. And it was an early, early, early test screening at two boots pizza in the Lower East Side.

Alex Ferrari 18:09
And I can imagine, I'm assuming technically it was sound very technically sound

Katie Aselton 18:13
That sounded and looked amazing. But call it riding alone was fantastic. Again, what I will say is that experience to the next time I saw it, because then I said I would refuse to watch any more cuts of the movie until it was done. I've been next time I saw it was when it premiered at the library at Sundance, and it played to a full theater. And when that Death Cab for Cutie song comes on, and your, your The van is pulling through the tunnel. I just like had this moment that where everything just froze, and I was like, Oh, I think this might work. Like it just you can feel the energy in the room. But the interesting thing about that screening was that I had never seen puppy tears like a funny movie, because I was like pouring my heart into it. And it was about heartache, and you're watching this couple fall apart. And, and as at some point in the movie, I think it's in the hotel scene. Maybe I haven't seen this movie in 100 years. But I think it's in the in the hotel room where I'm like, give me I'm having a complete emotional breakdown. And I'm sobbing and I'm like, give me a number I just want to know, and like the whole audience laughs and I was like, Wait a second. I was like, Oh, it is funny because there's nothing else. As an audience member, you're so uncomfortable and you can relate so much and you connect. And it was in the moment. I was like, Oh, I get it. And I also get what I can do. And I get like that that particular type of humor of like really dissecting like human discomfort like that something clicked in me It was really amazing. And then like, everything changed after that we got I got signed by at the time it was William Morris, and on stage at the premiere and we moved right out to Los Angeles from there and we've been here ever since puffy chair premiered.

Alex Ferrari 20:17
So then from that point on your career kind of took off.

Katie Aselton 20:21
Oh, yeah, it's been it was so easy. After that, it was just everything happened.

Alex Ferrari 20:26
Everything is like it was just, they just did they, when they backed up the money

Katie Aselton 20:31
In every television show. And in every movie, it's like hard to figure out like when to take a break because I'm just always work.

Alex Ferrari 20:40
So when they pulled up the money truck, and they did it back up into the front yard.

Katie Aselton 20:45
Like all BP dump it in. Yeah, no, it's funny, I didn't work that way.

Alex Ferrari 20:52
It never does. It never does. Even for even even for Mark and Jay. They had to, they had to hustle.

Katie Aselton 20:59
Work at it and still bust your ass and find who you are as an artist and decide what kind of artists you want to be. And then I'm gonna know that's like all part of it.

Alex Ferrari 21:11
So when you made your first feature, the free V. Which when I when I was watching, I was like, Oh, this is obviously taking a cue from puffy chair, arguably, much more sound technically, I have to say, if I'm if I'm gonna, if I'm gonna call it out,

Katie Aselton 21:29
Mark will be the first one to tell you that I lean into cinema a little bit more than he does. He's like, I don't give a shit. I just give me like, give me a performance. That's all I care about. I literally don't care what's in the frame, it doesn't matter. Kind of want it to look pretty.

Alex Ferrari 21:44
So when I was watching them, like, definitely there's an inspiration from from that that core, the mumble core movement, but it's definitely a little bit more cinematic. But there's still there's watching scenes, there's like, oh, there's no lights here. Like this is all natural. This is all natural. It's and then you had DAX Dax Shepard in as your co star who's absolutely wonderful. And, and I mean, he was in 2010. It was pre parenthood. Yeah. So he was he was he wasn't Dax Shepard. Yeah, he was. No,

Katie Aselton 22:12
He was. He was without a paddle Dax Shepard. Oh, punked or pound Dax Shepard. He was there. Um, which is like, I really take great pride in being like this. Like the first step for him into like, him really showing the world who he is as an actor. And I truthfully, I really hope he gets back into more of that kind of acting. He's a beautiful actor.

Alex Ferrari 22:39
No, he's he's, he's excellent actor, even when you're in parenthood, he was, oh, my,

Katie Aselton 22:43
Well, that's the thing. I think you said he took freebie in an effort to like, get into natural acting. I was like, it's like training ground. Like he was just like, he was working his stuff out on me, which like, Thank God, thank God, he did, because he finished. You finish shooting. He finished shooting our movie, all of eight days that we shot that movie and went right up to San Francisco to go shoot parenthood.

Alex Ferrari 23:15
And he's done. And he's done. Okay, since then he's done. All right. He's done a rough himself. He's, he's gonna write for himself. No question about it. Now, the one thing I always love asking directors into something that's not talked about as much as it should be. Is the politics on set. That there's a lot of politics that young directors and especially female directors who have had on the show, they have a whole other set of things that they have to deal with, on set. Is there any advice you can give young directors both male and female coming about politics on set? And when I say politics of set? Yeah, there's obviously the politics of studio executives and investors and producers.

Katie Aselton 23:52
And I can't speak to that at all.

Alex Ferrari 23:54
But but with even crew people who push back on you don't believe in your vision, or are been doing this for 30 years, and they're like, Who's this kid? And that how do you deal with that? What advice do you have for kids? Or young, young young directors coming up?

Katie Aselton 24:10
Yeah, I mean, please, I want the 60 year old who's making their first movie to deal with the politics of the sunset. Because the truth of the matter is, is I've had two different experiences and look 3d was a unicorn all on its own like that was like felt like film camp. Like it was a very like Cassavetes esque, like just really warm environment where it was so collaborative, and I don't think we'll ever have anything like that again, where I felt fully supported from every single person who was in my home shooting that movie. It felt like such a safe space. My second film with Blackrock I definitely went in with a much heavier sense of imposter syndrome. And I think I I wrongly, so balanced that out with like, a strong persona of like, no one's gonna push me around and I didn't treat people I think the way I want to treat people moving through this world, like I, I very much regret the way I handled situations. And I think part of it came from insecurity and part of it came from stress and, and we were under so many, like, the physical elements of that movie were so hard, we were freezing cold and wet and bug bitten, and, you know, over budget, and all of those things, I think, led to me not being the leader that I really want it to be. And then with Mac and re, I went into that, having really spent 10 years since Blackrock sitting with that and thinking about the kind of director I want to be in the way, I want to leave a set. And, and with Mack and Rita, I lead with kindness and gratitude, and respect, and, and humility. And I think that there is nothing more powerful than someone saying, I don't know, let's figure that out together. I don't know, what do you think there is a reason why you hire the incredibly talented people around you. And that is to support you with their knowledge of their job, right. I don't know how to be a cinematographer. There's a reason why the cameras not in my hands, because I don't know how to do it. I don't know how to hang a light. I don't know what it takes for, you know, everything that goes into production design, I hire people who are wonderful at their jobs. And I think the biggest job for a director is to trust in those people. And to thank them for their work. And it is still a collaboration, it's still a conversation, you can absolutely weigh in on things. But I think that if you can end every day with thank you so much for everything you did today. I couldn't be doing this without you. I think that would be my biggest piece of advice.

Alex Ferrari 27:06
You know, what's so interesting is when when I watch Black Rock and washed, makin read up, it's you can you can feel the energy difference. I mean, they're two different kinds of story, but you can just feel, you know, because in Black Rock, you're one of the actresses, you can kind of sense that and I have to I have to ask when I was watching, I was like, Man, this must have been a super easy set. I mean, it should have just just flowed everything worked nicely. On Black Rock. There's no issues whatsoever, because you're running around on an island and I'm like, oh,

Katie Aselton 27:37
Exteriors on the poster name. I mean, it just my rental house is six hours away. Well, you know, when your water housing fails, like you're there, like, we were supposed to have cameras in the water with us didn't have any like, things like there was no shooting and jiving on that movie. Like it was

Alex Ferrari 28:01
Yeah. Opposite of freebie.

Katie Aselton 28:03
The complete opposite. And, and sitting in that headspace for two years, the you know, the time that it takes to make that movie. Really? It didn't a number on me.

Alex Ferrari 28:17
Yeah, cuz I mean, I mean, it was it was your Apocalypse Now, in many ways, because you were stuck out.

Katie Aselton 28:21
And I must admit, I was the one having 10 heart attacks.

Alex Ferrari 28:28
I mean, it must have been it must have been brutal. Because as I'm watching it, I'm like, This is not easy on a massive budget. Oh, my God was $100 million budget. You're still in the elements. Anytime you shooting in the elements, even a scene or two, shot most of that film in there, and you're running.

Katie Aselton 28:46
The only interior shot of that movie is in the car in the beginning when the two girls when Lake and Kate are in the car is the only time wow, that there is an interior shot.

Alex Ferrari 28:58
So when you were prepping that film, I have to ask you Did you Did it come up that like Hey guys, we're gonna be shooting outside? Can we control because you're at the whim of weather and the sun going in and out? Time all tides we probably never considered booking tides that go in and out. Ah, god, it was a it was

Katie Aselton 29:26
A matter that were like we bit off more than we could chew with this one. And it was I'm still so proud of what we made ultimately. But man, it was hard.

Alex Ferrari 29:35
So how do you how is the director? Do you keep morale going? And by the way, you have the added bonus of being an actress in the film that you're directing in this insanity. So I can imagine

Katie Aselton 29:47
I think I misstepped is I focused the most on morale of the cast. And not because we were also in two separate camps like the crew was all held up in One house, and the cast and the produce the Daelim Romanski. and I were in another house. And so

Alex Ferrari 30:08
I was like, so above the line below the line,

Katie Aselton 30:11
I need to keep the actors happy, not realizing that the crew was like ready to uni mutiny,

Alex Ferrari 30:22
They were going to they were going to do so that is if everyone listening, if you can at all help it definitely don't separate above the line and below the line on an on an independent film, try to bring them all together.

Katie Aselton 30:33
And in my head, I was like, this is it's all going to work if we can all just get through these 23 days, like, it's all gonna like, I promise you, it's all going to work. But like when you're getting $100 a day and getting the shit kicked data you and they bitten eaten alive by bugs. Like it's hard to remember that it's all I ultimately, like financially going to work. You know, it was hard. And I hope for your listeners. Yeah, I hope I can take with you.

Alex Ferrari 31:06
I mean, look, I've shot I've shot and in nature, and it's it sucks. It's like you just can't control. When that sun goes behind a cloud, we gotta wait, are we going to try to light it are we going to, because we don't have the we have the budget to actually set up a nice, you know, 10k up and turn it on and off the matches. It's it's just, it's just, it's, so when I was watching this, I'm like, I know she didn't have the biggest budget on this. This is our second movie. And she's running around on an island.

Katie Aselton 31:34
We make make it free.

Alex Ferrari 31:41
It was the pilot for Naked and Afraid that's exactly.

Katie Aselton 31:45
Every, every time we hit a thing, you just can actually crank it up a notch. And that's where we were it was. Wow. Looking back on it like, glad I had that experience. But holy, holy cow.

Alex Ferrari 31:58
Wow. Now, you've gone through a bunch of stuff in your career, and you've gone through your journeys, is there anything that you wish someone would have told you at the beginning of your career? If you can go back in time and talk to yourself? And go look, I know you want to be an actress? And that's all good, we're gonna do that. But keep this in mind.

Katie Aselton 32:17
Ah, the one thing that I would say is like, and I mean, it really speaks to your podcast is like never stop hustling. You gotta just like I am, I will forever be so upset at myself for the way i i operated post puffy chair. I was like, I just had a movie that was a hit in Sundance, like, I'm fine. I let Mark and Jay go to every film festival. And I was like, I'm gonna do pilot season, I missed every opportunity to meet filmmakers to get in those conversations. And, and that was such a loss. Like, I'm so proud of that. And it changed the narrative, right? And, and the narrative became like, you know, Mark put his girlfriend in the movie. And it's like, oh, no, I'm actually like, I'm an actor. I've been doing this longer than he's been doing it. But like, because I wasn't there. I wasn't a part of the narrative.

Alex Ferrari 33:17
You know, someone else wrote the narrative for you.

Katie Aselton 33:19
Someone else wrote the narrative. So that would be my piece of advice to my younger self is like, Don't let anyone else write the narrative, like, keep the pen in your hand at all times. Do you think that doesn't mean? Sorry to interrupt you mean to be utterly obnoxious, and to be that person who's constantly like trying to shove the door open, but it just means like, say yes to opportunities, and never think that you are at a point where you are too good to whatever that thing is, for me as an actor. It's like, I still put myself on tape for everything that I'm excited about. Like, I am not good for that. I don't care. I don't care. I'll do it. And for you know, as far as like putting back and read out the world, I want to say yes to every opportunity to talk to anyone because this is my moment now. And I don't know when I'm gonna get this moment again.

Alex Ferrari 34:14
And that's something that people people don't realize is like when you're directing, I take it when anytime I walk on set, I'm like, I'm so happy to be here. Unless you're Ridley Scott, and you're directing every single day of your entire life for the last 40 years. Generally, people don't get that opportunity. So when you get the opportunity, as artists, directors are the one artists that we rarely get to, to perform our art. Yeah,

Katie Aselton 34:37
Well, I'll say that to Eddie. Any, like actors feel the same way at least? A lot of times directors or creators have their own art, right. So at least then you have some semblance of control, in your in your path. We're as actors so often we are left to you know the mercy of others. are like making the correct decision like asking permission to do what we do. And so, you know, look, I think the more we can self generate and and, and at least just keep our idle hands busy but even, you know, directors, I think have a little bit of an easier time generating things for themselves but it is it's hard. It's deceptive, right? Like, the job the work is it's few and far between as as you move through the world.

Alex Ferrari 35:32
When when when you were saying that you didn't take advantage of all those conversations after puffy chair and you were just like, I'm gonna go do pilot season was that ego? Where you're just like, I have arrived. I don't need to do this

Katie Aselton 35:43
100% It was young, stupid ego, and not really understanding the business that Well, I am still the girl for main who like I wasn't raised in this like I didn't. And I didn't have anyone really guiding me to tell me. You This is like we were mark and Jay and I sort of came. And you know, my previous group of friends in Los Angeles, we're all living very different lives. And they didn't understand they didn't understand the Sundance of adult right. They were like, so crazy. And in their minds. They were also like she made it. Like, you know, Jeremy Sisto on a TV show doesn't understand, like, Katie Appleton edits in a Sundance movie, you know, it's like just two very different worlds. And so I had no one to look to to be like, how, what do you think I should do right now?

Alex Ferrari 36:34
There was no podcast that back then to tell you. I would have killed for this podcast 15 years ago. Could you imagine having all this information, having these kinds of really candid conversations? I mean, it would have been massive.

Katie Aselton 36:51
It's so awesome to have something that just demystifies something that is that we grew up, like putting on a pedestal right? But it felt so unattainable. It felt so like, you know, we grew up looking at directors like Spielberg and just being like, how does he do it? But like, what if he actually told us?

Alex Ferrari 37:11
I had the pleasure of talking to some of the and I've had the pleasure of talking to some of these kinds of gods. He's like, filmmaking gods. I'm trying to get Steve on the show. I thought I call him Steve, because you know, oh, but

Katie Aselton 37:23
I saw him one time I had a meeting at DreamWorks. He just walked in the door. And I was like, the only thing I could say is, he looks exactly like Steven Spielberg. I know. That's so weird. But like, he like he looks like he like had the best he had, like, just I was like, Whoa, no, you are absolutely stupid.

Alex Ferrari 37:45
It's a uniform. It's a Steven Spielberg uniform. Yeah. You know it. Can you imagine? And I've talked to so many people who've worked with Steven and and had businesses with him and stuff. How what's it like being someone like that, that in certain circles, I mean, he could walk around, he could probably he's so famous. And he's such a he's such a known person around the world. But he's not Brad Pitt. Like he can go off

Katie Aselton 38:08
He looks just like Steven Spielberg,

Alex Ferrari 38:09
Right. So the point is, like, every time he walks into a room, and there's a filmmaker in there, they all had the same reaction you did, like, how do you? And I've talked to people like, how does he deal with it? He's like, he's just really nice, man. He's just really nice and pleasant.

Katie Aselton 38:23
And I think there are people who are not quite so kind, but I think

Alex Ferrari 38:27
No, in this business, stop it.

Katie Aselton 38:30
I know it shocked up it.

Alex Ferrari 38:32
Next, you're gonna say there's egos in Hollywood.

Katie Aselton 38:34
I know. I'm not the only one it turns out.

Alex Ferrari 38:39
So I had the pleasure this morning to watch your new film, Mack and Rita and I absolutely adored it. It's so much fun. And I'm, you know, in the beginning of the movie, you guys shot in Palm Springs. And I just left LA, I moved to Austin, about a year ago. And right before I left, I went to Palm Springs for the first time. And that's where the devil lives. I don't know if you know that the devil actually has a home in Palm Springs. It was 119 when I went, I've never been in 119

Katie Aselton 39:09
You're not meant to go in. But there's times I don't quite know. You're thinking.

Alex Ferrari 39:14
I went to Joshua Tree and then we're like, Hey, we're close to Palm Springs. Let's just go check it out. And but there's human beings walking the streets and bursting into flames. So I felt like just yelling at them with the Tron with up like, don't you understand? Don't you understand what's happening? Me? Thank God they love them so much. So as soon as I was watching those scenes that you shot, I was just like, when did they shoot this? Because it had

Katie Aselton 39:36
It was March. It was hot, but not as hot as it

Alex Ferrari 39:43
So when we were in the 90s Hundreds, yeah,

Katie Aselton 39:46
it was probably it was probably like 90 and honestly like it was fine. We were okay. Okay, yeah, could have.

Alex Ferrari 39:51
Cuz I'm just like port I keep going. Alright, so tell me about the movie. Tell me what the movies about.

Katie Aselton 39:58
The movie is, is really ultimately about being your truest forming yourself at any age, right? This is a really hard movie to give like a one line synopsis too. So that's one line, right your

Alex Ferrari 40:14
Pitch, that's your pitch this

Katie Aselton 40:16
Is like be it is your true self at any age Or pitch.

Alex Ferrari 40:23
Please tell us the longer pitch.

Katie Aselton 40:24
The longer pitch longer pitch is it is a story about a 30 year old woman named Matt who finds herself living a very inauthentic life. She has friends who are all very hip trendy, and with it, yet she connects more to the older women in her life. She was raised by her grandmother and she really feels like she is a 70 year old woman trapped in the body of a 30 year old. So while on this wild bachelorette weekend in Palm Springs with her girlfriends, she is just dying to lay down and get away from it all. So she tucks herself into a side tent that has a regression pod in it and she doesn't care. That's a regression pod, you're going to lay down and in that pod has a bit of a mental breakdown, and really screams that she is a seven year old trapped in a 30 year olds body. And sure enough, she comes out Diane Keaton, and which is very,

Alex Ferrari 41:22
Very big, very big style. Tom Hanks big, beautiful.

Katie Aselton 41:27
But it was so fun to like then watch this character. Have a seven year old woman have to live the life of a 30 year old but the obligations of the 30 year old she's an influencer. She's a writer like she just still has to live that life and it turns out you know, our girl Mac really confused age with wisdom. And the truth is she didn't want to be old. She just wanted to be her. And how do we get back to ourselves?

Alex Ferrari 41:54
Oh, much better pitch than the first one I have to say. It's it is no but that it takes a minute to to bring it out because and you know, just that Pilates scenes alone was probably I mean that must have been so so you so you're working with this young upstart Dan keen? What is it like? Introducing what's it like introducing it into the world?

Katie Aselton 42:16
I'm gonna be excited for people to see what she can do.

Alex Ferrari 42:20
What's it like working with a living legend? I got it. Like it's a director. How do you approach giving her notes and directing a scene? How did you work with her?

Katie Aselton 42:28
I say like it truly someone at some point was like, Oh, you're directing Diane, like dream come true. And I was like, a dream that big. Like, look at what I'm doing. This is insane. Who dares to dream like I'm from a town of 300 people from a school that didn't have a drama program. Four years. Four years I was in a drama club with no production. So it is like it is a real like even like on the eve of like putting this movie out into the world. I am still pinching myself that that is my reality that I get to work every day with her and the truth of the matter is is that is she is just an absolute fucking delight like she is she is one of the reasons why she's so great in this movie is because she is hands down like the most authentic person you could ever possibly want to meet the Diane that we have known and falling in love with as audience members like for decades is exactly who she is. That is Diane, those quirks the idiosyncratic like wild, wackiness, the in the insecurities, the the heart, like the humor, all of that is wrapped up in, in Diane and it's all right there she is, like, vulnerable and real and fun and, and self effacing. And it's just like she's a true delight and working with her was I was really expecting are prepared anyways, I think a lot of actors, nevermind actors who are in their 70s and have been doing this for 40 years, or 50 years. I you expect them to be very set in their ways that they're going to come in, they're going to give the performance they're going to give and no one's going to tell them any different right? And Diane was not that at all. She was so open and like game and ready to play and always wanted to do more physical comedy and yeah, it was just, I am so grateful for what she brought every day.

Alex Ferrari 44:46
And I mean, just again, I'll go back to the Pilates scenes. I mean, it's absolutely brilliant what she did and that that you could just see the the mastery of timing and and comedy and how she's able to like she's a she's a masterful Whoa, competition really is

Katie Aselton 45:02
I know and he doesn't get to do it, which is like crazy to me. I feel like I feel like I haven't seen her do like be this physical in a movie since like baby cheese Baby, baby boom as like a reference throughout this movie because I think it is a very underappreciated movie. It's still 100% holds up. The story of Baby Boom is it's almost more relevant now than it was then post pandemic, and are we going to work from home? And like, do we work to live or live to work? And like, what was the who's the director of that Shire? Oh, who is it? I think it's Charles Shire, wasn't it?

Alex Ferrari 45:46
It was yes. I think yeah. Because I had I think I had him on the show. I didn't think I had him on the show. And I was asking him about this is Charles I think it was yes, yes. Yeah. He's Yeah, he's a master who's, ah,

Katie Aselton 45:58
What's really physically in that movie, like, they're her like, freak out, break down at the well, when the well runs dry. The way she kisses Sam Shepard, like, all of those were touchpoints for me, in making this movie, and we talked a lot about it. And, and I just loved it. I mean, I love all of Diane stuff. But I think what she did physically and baby boom was really like, where we were looking to sort of land with Mack and Rita.

Alex Ferrari 46:28
And what was it, you know, as a director we always come up with is that day that the whole world's coming down crashing around us? And I know that you could argue that everyday stuff. But there's always that one day that has

Katie Aselton 46:42
2022.

Alex Ferrari 46:43
Exactly, exactly. Was there a day that sticks out in your mind that the whole world was coming crashing down around you and you felt like oh my god, how am I gonna get through this? What was that? And how did you overcome it?

Katie Aselton 46:54
The day that we were shooting out at the beach, the big fire stuff? Yeah, a clear power Summit. Shooting and all of a sudden, I'm sorry, I think like the Army's landing nearby title. We were shooting at the beach. We had this big big fire stunt and we're getting going and it's a gorgeous day like so psyched, the weather's great. And all of a sudden, like as we're like gearing up for the fire stuff, like the wind starts to pick up. And la ended up having like, gale force winds that day. And you're gonna watch like there's hair blowing everywhere. We ended up having to CGI like most of the fire we could not get anything to frigging light it was the most infuriating finally dying was just like the second third fire I'm getting on stage I was like yes, you're gonna just go and we're gonna do it and we're gonna and thankfully I had Nicole Byer there who is like just a comedic genius and I could just rely on her to like be clutch like you just need in moments like that you need people to deliver and so we ended up like barely pulling out that fire thing we go to turn the cameras around so we can get her walking through the event. And the when I want to say was like 40 miles an hour Gail first picks up all of the tents Get Lifted like Wizard of Oz and fucking Malibu like they went so far. And we were just like we gotta call it like obviously we we cannot shoot

Alex Ferrari 48:36
We don't have a set anymore. God doesn't want you to shoot is basically

Katie Aselton 48:39
Not want us to finish this day. So he like go home and we're like, oh my god, what are we going to do? What are we going to do? So we're looking at the schedule working out with AD and the only day that we can like fit in a half day reshoot is the day that we are shooting Diane coming out of the pod Yeah, the first time I'm Dion's work hours are 12 hours portal portal, hair and makeup. All of that requires some time to locations Santa Monica to downtown oh man and a massive massive wardrobe change in between and a hair changed because she's has the longer hair there meant that I had 20 minutes to shoot day and coming out of the pot.

Alex Ferrari 49:39
Wow.

Katie Aselton 49:41
It was like only the most important

Alex Ferrari 49:43
Basically the most important shot

Katie Aselton 49:46
But then also the Marie Claire thing is important because then that's like production value, right? Like we need the feel of this big huge event. We need Diane like working the vendors we're you know, we're shooting her coming through and doing the whole thing. There was No compromise. You just had to do it. It was one of those things where I was like, oh my god, oh my god.

Alex Ferrari 50:07
And you know what, and I love these kinds of stories. That's why I always asked that question because I love to demystify for for young filmmakers coming up that they're like, Oh, you've got Diane Keaton, this is a big budget this is this and that everything runs smoothly. No, no.

Katie Aselton 50:23
Shit goes wrong at every level. Like I don't care how much money you have. I don't care what studios making your movie. I don't care if you're just making it with friends, every something is going to always go wrong, and you just have to be ready for it.

Alex Ferrari 50:38
Now, when is when is this film available?

Katie Aselton 50:40
August 12 in theaters. Yes, August 12 that's Friday, August 12, in theaters, and then we'll be PVOD in September and then on Hulu in December.

Alex Ferrari 50:53
So awesome. I can't wait for the world to see this film. Now I'm going to ask you a few questions. I ask all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Katie Aselton 51:04
Make stuff with your friends, get good

Alex Ferrari 51:07
Work and just hustle

Katie Aselton 51:10
Hustle make it.

Alex Ferrari 51:13
What is lesson? What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Katie Aselton 51:20
I think it is. You got to put that ego on the shelf and do the work.

Alex Ferrari 51:25
It is something that they don't talk about.

Katie Aselton 51:27
Like you got to bet is I think, you know, listen, I listen to Oprah, and Deepak and ego is is a daily struggle for everyone. But it is like the enemy. Like if your ego does you no favors.

Alex Ferrari 51:41
But you know what the funny thing is that in our business, it's even more prevalent, because not everybody has a group of people or an entire industry telling you you're the best. Yeah, awesome. It's difficult to handle that at any level.

Katie Aselton 51:55
Well, and I think that it gets confused. ego gets confused with confidence, right? Like you can have confidence in your skills and your abilities, but not be led by your ego.

Alex Ferrari 52:07
Right! Exactly. Like I'm too good for that. I remember when I first started directing, I went out as a commercial director, and I had been editing I was with top editor and in South Florida, I was making tons of cash. And then when as soon as I made my demo reel I just said, I'm no longer an editor. I'm just going to send my and then I got calls. Hey, can you work? No, I don't edit any more. I am now a director. Mind you wasn't directing.

Katie Aselton 52:30
Hard to call yourself the director when you're not actually doing it.

Alex Ferrari 52:33
Exactly. So it was just very automated. I always tell people don't worry, the universe has a way of just slapping this little nudge here and there.

Katie Aselton 52:42
I can knock in your head just a little bit.

Alex Ferrari 52:44
And last question three of your favorite films of all time. Hmm. Tootsie so brilliant. Ah, Big Lebowski. Not a brilliant one. And I will say baby, boom. Very nice. Very nice. I had one other question. I forgot to ask you. What did you learn from your biggest failure?

Katie Aselton 53:09
That that there's always another there's going to be a tomorrow you know, the world doesn't stop making movies The world doesn't stop making TV shows. It doesn't end on on the last project it's going to the business keeps going. And no one gives us much shit about you as you do

Alex Ferrari 53:37
Do you spent how many. How many hours of your life was wasted thinking about what other people thought of you and you can and as you've gotten older you didn't think a bit about me they have their own crap. Oh crap they're dealing with how egocentric are we to think like when we walk in the room? What are they thinking? I'm how I look.

Katie Aselton 53:56
No. Everyone cares. No one get no one cares. They're all worried about themselves. right and the wrong cut everyone else some grace. Everyone's doing their best.

Alex Ferrari 54:09
Yeah, exactly. There's no quit. We're all doing our best and we're all just trying to make it through this. This life's journey and in this business is is brutal.

Katie Aselton 54:18
Without some grace, cut everyone else some grace and trying and enjoy it as much as you can.

Alex Ferrari 54:25
Katie it has been an absolute pleasure and honor talking to you so much fun. Thank you so much for dropping your knowledge bombs on the tribe. I appreciate your very, very much and best of luck. I can't wait to see your next project. So thank you again.

Katie Aselton 54:37
Me too. Alright, I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 606: From Wedding Videos to Directing For Netflix & Paramount+ with Rel Schulman and Henry Joost

Henry Joost and Rel Schulman are a directing and writing team, producers and best friends. They founded the New York City production company Supermarché in 2007. Their most recent feature, SECRET HEADQUARTERS, premiers summer 2022 on Paramount+ and stars Owen Wilson, Michael Peña and Walker Scobell. The film is produced by Jerry Bruckheimer Films..

In 2020 Henry and Rel directed PROJECT POWER, a Netflix sci-fi action film starring Jamie Foxx and Joseph Gordon Levitt. The film debuted at #1 in over 90 countries. It held the #1 spot in the USA for over 2 weeks. It remains one of Netflix’s top ten original features of all time.

Their first feature documentary, CATFISH, premiered at the 2010 Sundance film festival where it received critical acclaim and went on to a nationwide release. Their second feature, PARANORMAL ACTIVITY 3, released by Paramount Pictures, opened to rave reviews and had the highest grossing horror opening weekend in history. Their second film in the franchise, PARANORMAL ACTIVITY 4 was released in October, 2012, and the two combined have grossed $350 million. Henry and Rel directed two films in 2016: NERVE, a summer hit released by Lionsgate, starring Emma Roberts and Dave Franco; and VIRAL, a prescient low budget horror movie with Blumhouse, starring Sofia Black-D’Elia. They also executive produced the 2016 Sundance Film Festival hit WHITE GIRL, directed by Elizabeth Wood, which was acquired by Netflix for worldwide distribution.

Henry and Rel are executive producers on the long running series CATFISH: The TV Show, now in it’s 8th season, and have directed dozens of commercials and short films for companies like Nike, Google, Facebook, and Vogue. They directed the short film A BRIEF HISTORY OF JOHN BALDESSARI, commissioned by LACMA, narrated by Tom Waits, which has been screened at over 100 film festivals worldwide. Henry and Rel’s Google commercial DEAR SOPHIE was named Time magazine’s Best Commercial of the Year in 2011. In 2020 they fulfilled a lifelong dream of directing the season opening short film for the NEW YORK KNICKS.

Henry, Rel, and their in-house producer Orlee-Rose Strauss maintain an active development slate. Features in the works include: an adaptation of Capcom’s MEGA MAN which they wrote and are directing for Netflix; an adaptation of Edward Abbey’s novel THE MONKEY WRENCH GANG, produced by Ed Pressman, which they wrote and are directing. They are also signed on to direct a bio-pic about KEITH ADAMS, the deaf football coach who made history leading an all-deaf high school football team to an undefeated season against all-hearing teams. The film is being written by Josh Feldman, and produced by Freddy Wexler, DJ Kurs and Eryn Brown.

Enjoy my conversation with Henry Joost and Rel Schulman.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Rel Schulman 0:00
But I'll say to the guy, Hey, buddy, I believe in you. You got this and then just walk away. And Henry will style over and be like what he means to say is.

Alex Ferrari 0:14
You know, it's always fascinating to me that even on some on big budget films like this shit happens.

This episode is brought to you by the best selling book Rise of the Filmtrepreneur how to turn your independent film into a money making business. Learn more at filmbizbook.com. I'd like to welcome to the show Rel Schulman and Henry Joost. How're you guys doing?

Henry Joost 0:40
Good, how are you?

Alex Ferrari 0:40
Good, man, thank you so much for coming on the show. Guys. I've been I've been watching your stuff for years, man, you know, back in the khakis days back to the catfish days. So you know, very first question I asked for you guys. Why in God's green earth? Did you want to get into this insanity that has the film industry?

Rel Schulman 0:56
Oh, God, I don't think we're any good at anything else.

Henry Joost 0:59
At this point, I don't Yeah, I don't know how to do anything else. That's a huge mistake. And now I can't back out.

Alex Ferrari 1:07
We should have gotten a real job somewhere else doing something? No. So how did you guys get in?

Henry Joost 1:11
It was a lot. It was a complex road. But I think we I think it started out as being just kids who loved movies growing up. And then at some point, there was the realization that like, there were people who actually do that as a job. They make movies, which totally blew my mind. At some point. You know, when I was like, I think I was 16 or something. And I met somebody who was a video producer. I was like, wow, so so they're real people who work in this business. And like that's something you could pursue. I personally became an editor. And, and that's when Raul and I met in high school. And we were both I was kind of like, interested in experimenting with video editing and shooting stuff in high school, and making films and little short films and stuff with my friends. And Rel and I met in our we met in high school, but we really connected in our early 20s. We both had a job at this public access TV station called plum TV. And that was our summer job between you know, like when we were in college, and we were it was this kind of wild place where we were, as you know, 21 year olds given the responsibility to like, they were like, you can make your own show. So I made a show about Hamptons nightlife. And relegated, like a kind of a restaurant conversation show. And oh, and also like a plastic surgery show, right?

Rel Schulman 2:47
Yep. The beauty makeover show Hamptons stuff, which was just crazy. Nice.

Alex Ferrari 2:52
How have you how the academy didn't recognize your work back then.

Henry Joost 2:57
And we were they were like, they're like you guys. You know, you can write direct shoot, edit everything your own half hour show. And but you have to turn it in every week. So we were like, we have this crazy experience, which was made to making a half hour show in one week all by herself. And we kind of commiserated over that and you know, started having our ideas of our own, like, I hope this is not our future to make, you know, plastic surgery shows and stuff like that, like like, what else can can we do? So we started making documentaries and kind of branching out on our own and then eventually formed a production company, which we still have super marchais, which we started in 2007.

Alex Ferrari 3:45
Very cool, guys. I always wanted to ask, you know, directing teams. I've had a few directing teams on the show, and I love asking this question. How the hell do you do it, man? Because I've been directing for 20 odd years, and I can't understand how, like, what like, do you want somebody handle the camera at someone handle the actors? Or, you know, do you guys just ask all the time? Like, what do you think? What do you think? Like how do you actually work together as a directing team?

Rel Schulman 4:11
You know, like, think about if you were on on vacation with your wife and kids and you have like 50 to 100 kids

Alex Ferrari 4:23
Sorry, my my estrus puckered there for a second.

Rel Schulman 4:28
You got to figure out how to get out of the airport, get onto a train and check into a complicated hotel. And there's something wrong with your reservation. How do you split that with your with your wife, you kind of just figure it out. You're both have extraordinary, you know, total responsibility and you got to work together as a team. And you've been an event together for a while.

Alex Ferrari 4:51
And you guys know each other so well at this point, then I'm assuming it's just secondhand. Yeah, you just know oh, this shots this or that shots that are at You both have and you both have similar sensibilities at this point.

Rel Schulman 5:03
Yeah, yeah. So we have to it, otherwise it wouldn't work.

Alex Ferrari 5:07
So then at what point, I have to believe, just like my wife and I, there's disagreements. So how do you guys handle those disagreements or when you're creatively not exactly on the same page?

Henry Joost 5:17
We try to disagree only in private.

Alex Ferrari 5:20
Smart, didn't never, never, never

Never in front of the kids

Rel Schulman 5:27
Because it causes lifelong trauma.

Alex Ferrari 5:31
You know why so funny. But that's what we, my wife, and I do, we're like, we will back each other in front of the kids. But the second the door closes to the bedroom. I can't believe. I know, let's have a conversation. But that's just like an unspoken rule. You never do it in front of the kids. So that's similar to you guys. Yeah.

Henry Joost 5:48
Oh, yeah. We were in production meetings. And like one of us will say, like, all say, I want a million balloons and this scene, and somebody is like, well, that's what you got. Like, that's what both of you guys want rails like, yep. We definitely want a million balloons. The door everybody leaves in the door closes. What the fuck were you talking? We didn't talk about that. We never agreed million have a million isn't a million excessive.

Alex Ferrari 6:16
Yeah, except that you go back the next day. Like, you know, we, we talked about it, you know, 10,000 balloons is fine.

Henry Joost 6:21
Yeah, it's 2 million, please. Yeah.

Rel Schulman 6:25
You can you can appear as extremely collaborative and reasonable. If we come back the next day and say, You know what, we were looking at the whole budget. As filmmakers, we could achieve what Henry was so to want with less balloons. in beta, better craft service.

Alex Ferrari 6:47
So, obviously, you made this, you know, one of those seminal movies of the early 2000s, which is catfish. I remember when catfish came out the documentary and it was a freaky ass, just freaky film. And it was wonderful. And you got into Sundance, what was that whole experience of making that film and then getting it to Sundance, which I'm assuming that was, was that the first time you were going to Sundance

Rel Schulman 7:10
First Feature Film.

Alex Ferrari 7:12
Right. So then, so you out of the gate. You get into Sundance with this documentary? That's, you know, sets the world on fire a bit. What is what was that whole experience? Like? It was, it was wild.

Rel Schulman 7:26
Yeah, it was an awesome roller coaster.

Henry Joost 7:29
We got a little spoiled, I think because we never, you know, we both of us grew up so disconnected from the film industry. And like, we didn't really know anybody who worked in the film industry and didn't end into Sundance and didn't. I don't even know if we'd ever been to a film festival, like, you know, and

Rel Schulman 7:48
I've been to the East Village Film Festival,

Alex Ferrari 7:51
Which is just like Sundance but different.

Henry Joost 7:53
Yeah. It doesn't smell

Rel Schulman 7:58
There was.

Henry Joost 7:59
So we kind of didn't know what to expect. And we had these great, we had two great guides in the experience, which were Andrew jerky and Mark Summerlin, who were the producers of capturing the Friedman's. And they were they were they became producers on catfish. After we've made it because we were just like, what do we do with this? We don't We made this movie. And we have this like, pretty good rough cut that we showed her when we showed our friends. They're like, I can't believe that. Is this real? Like, this is insane. What what do we do now? And they were like, okay, so you go to Sundance and here's how it works. And you know, and you get a really warm, really warm jacket.

Alex Ferrari 8:39
Oh, yes, we can have a whole episode on how to prepare for Sunday's long underwear. long underwear written stay hydrated real socks, thermal socks, not Yep, not tube socks,

Rel Schulman 8:51
No, not tube socks and waterproof boots. There's a lot of sloshing around.

Alex Ferrari 8:57
And they never tell you about the altitude do they? Like you walk 15 feet and you're like

Rel Schulman 9:03
You're getting good reviews, it's a little easier to deal with. It's a little it's a slight bit easier to deal with. So there was so that, I mean, I'll never forget that I really feel like that was the moment our careers began in earnest as future filmmakers. And it was but less than five minutes after the first screening, which is a 10am screening at the library. And, and, and that's Sundance. And a woman comes up to us, Rowena Aguilas, who's an agent at CAA. And she was the agent of Andrew jerky, and Mark swirling our producers. And so there was some familiarity and some, I guess, trust because otherwise we had no idea what that world looked like or who to talk to or who to trust or what agency or anything. And there was just someone we are who knew someone we knew and we said or will sign with you. And that day we had agent that's and that's the, and we've been there ever since. And they've helped us like forge a path as working movie directors, which is not something we even really planned for, or had or had totally clearly seen for ourselves.

Alex Ferrari 10:15
It's fascinating that I mean, you guys kind of like, I mean, you obviously had been directing and working hard and hustling to get to where you were. But when you got to catfish, he was kind of like, Alright, what do we do with this? And you just kind of like felt like, oh, you go to Sundance? Sure. Submit to Sundance, get into Sundance, get an agent at CAA, it sounds like yeah, this is just what you do. It's extremely difficult. Everything that you've just read the right place at the right time with the right product.

Rel Schulman 10:41
Alex, the 10 years leading up to that, and it listen, it hasn't been easy, since the hustle never stops, right that 10 years leading up to that where I mean two, three, all not multiple, all nighters every week, to make as many videos and to get better and better at our craft as possible. And that was, that was the public access TV shows like Henry was talking about, but it was like an extraordinary amount of wedding videos, Bar Mitzvah videos, industrial films, anything, anything in New York wanted on film, and desire to finish product, we said yes. And partially it was to make money. I think neither of us wanted another job. We wanted this to be the job. And the only way for that to work and to cover rent every month, which we were doing buy, like a matter of hours at the end of every month was just to make and make and make. And we ended up buying our own equipment. We ended up we had a storage locker with a couple cameras, a couple computers, sound equipment, lighting equipment, and that equipment is what allowed us to shoot and pay for catfish on our own.

Alex Ferrari 11:51
And they There you go. I mean, it's it's you're an overnight a 10 year overnight success basically.

Henry Joost 11:57
Right! Yeah, we just Yeah, we had done the legwork to be we were prepared for the for that incredible opportunity to fall in our laps that the opportunity being just the story of catfish unfolding in front of us. Like, we knew what we knew enough of what we were doing to capture the story. You know, and then we took a really long time trying to figure it out in the edit. And we had our friend Zack store at Ponte a who had been working on all of our other weird stuff that we were doing. Like, we directed the recruitment video for Harvard Business School, like that was like, it was like that, and like weddings and pharmaceutical videos and like the strangest stuff like just anything. Anything is just

Alex Ferrari 12:44
Yeah, and I said yes to everything to when I was to everything. Anything, anything that came along as I was an editor and the director, anything that showed up I genuine. I mean, I'd made I did promos for Matlock. That's like six months working as a freelancer so great. It was I was getting paid well, but my soul was dying with every edit.

Rel Schulman 13:08
But to me the toughest, toughest clients we ever had were. But also the most loyal were the Jewish mothers for the bar mitzvah videos, Bachmann's videos, and that prepared us for the studio executives. Nothing else. It may it may be dealing with studio heads. Piece of cake.

Alex Ferrari 13:29
Exactly. You don't want to mess with a Jewish mother on on the bar mitzvah.

Henry Joost 13:35
Bride relat Ral was once accused of ruining a bride's life.

Rel Schulman 13:39
Yeah. Oh, gotcha. Yeah, I don't know what you could imagine when he says that. But all it really was was I didn't get enough footage of her coming down the aisle, which was a mistake my camera in the wrong direction. There was two of us that were both shooting the groom each other like Oh, shit, one of us needs to point that way. And we tried to fake it in the edit by slowing it down, cutting away and then coming back. We use a moment. And they're like this out. She was like, Is that all you have? Because that's not enough. That was a long aisle.

Alex Ferrari 14:14
I got I got one better for you. I did have I did a wedding as a favor because I never did wedding videos. Because I just never got into that. But I did a wedding as a favor. And I shot like the I don't know the bride party or something like the dinner or whatever, that pre dinner thing. And I was shooting I was just got a new, a new photo camera. It was all film. And I was like, Oh yeah, I'm gonna use this really high speed film. I'm not going to use flash. Oh, no, no, I was. Oh, so I was the only thing shooting it. Like you guys are both just like oh, it's dude. And it was a friend of mine. And and I was the best man at that wedding. So the the the bride She was trying to kill me. She's like you've ruined have no photos of that day.

Rel Schulman 15:04
That was like we didn't know until a week, at least a week later

Alex Ferrari 15:06
A week later because you have to film all that stuff. And I was just like, how do I do that? That's brutal. And this is before iPhone. So there was literally no Yeah, average. There's nothing on that night. It was like I was the photo. So I feel you bro. I feel I've run I've ruined a bride or choose wedding myself.

Rel Schulman 15:22
I still, I still live with that guilt.

Alex Ferrari 15:27
I wake up in cold sweats sometimes.

Rel Schulman 15:29
Yeah, it sounds like you do to Alex. But you know what that kind of failure fuels me. Shooting the movies that we shoot now, which are you know, they they're their big budget, their studio movies, there's a lot of pressure. If you don't get something, we're the ones who pay for it in the edit. Six months later, right? You can't make a scene work. You can't make a transition work. And it haunts us for the rest of our lives.

Alex Ferrari 15:53
Yeah, exactly. Oh, I've been there. And then when you shouldn't be like, oh god, why didn't I get that one wide shot or, sir? And how do you cut around you're like, and then you don't want to go back and go, we need to pick up that you don't want to do that.

Rel Schulman 16:06
I mean, you know what, though, we we tried to never forget the catfish mentality, which was that we can shoot anything, it's, we can make anything happen with the equipment with our mediocre skills. And that goes for pickups, too. So we never say it's impossible. And we managed to figure out something whether we shoot it in the edit suite or in a friend's garage, or

Alex Ferrari 16:30
You read my mind, I did that on my first feet. I don't know that my first feature I there was like a whole scene. And I didn't cut any inserts. And we literally just I literally just went to the edit room grabbed the same camera shot an insert of like a dog on a pillow.

Henry Joost 16:44
Yeah, we shot stuff. We shot stuff in the editing room for this movie. Did you reality, we have we do it on every movie, I would say like we have a we have a Blackmagic 6k. Yeah, camera that we just just travels with as part of our kit. And so we're we're in the Edit constantly, we'll be like, I'm gonna go shoot that in the hallway right now. And we'll and usually we do a rough version. And then sometimes we even, you know, bring the actors back or bring break get we get the props in the editing office. So we can always we have a room just like that's full of the props. So we can just get inserts get whatever we need.

Alex Ferrari 17:20
In now you don't have to bring out a 35 millimeter panel vision camera. Yeah, wait a few days to shoot it. You could just pick up that little camera, boom, take the card out and pop it in and you're shooting and you're ready to rock. Yeah. So let me ask you. So you guys went from catfish to directing small films like Paranormal Activity three and four. Which did, which were not big budget films. They were actually all budgets considering at the studio, but they made massive amounts of money. So what is that? Like? How does the town treat you? What does that experience like? Because I know so many filmmakers would love to know what it's like being inside of the of the kind of the hurricane or the tornado that is being part of those kind of franchises and making that kind of money with those films.

Rel Schulman 18:03
Yeah, I mean, making the studio's money is it turns out to be a very important

Alex Ferrari 18:10
Key to a career as you're saying.

Rel Schulman 18:13
Hey, there's going to cut it but Jason Blum was was a big fan of cat fish. And he was producing those paraNormals at the time, and there had been paranormal too. And he had seen an early cut of cat fish in New York. He was friends with Directv. And he was like, oh shit, this is a good vibe for found footage. I think he believed us that catfish was real which it is but a lot of people didn't and so he showed it to the crew of paranormal two at Paramount and was like, Guys this is what down footage feels like. This is the aesthetic. This is the tone imitate this. And so by the time they got to paranormal three they were like, Well, why don't you try those goofballs and see if they have enough have any ideas for paranormal three. And it turned out the studio, Adam Goodman and a couple other bigwigs at Paramount were convinced it was fake, which I think made them even more interested in us paranormal being a fake found footage movie and there was nothing we could do to convince them it wasn't and I think we just kind of looked at each other and just like Zipit let let them think what they need to think let's take our first like real paying job. All

Alex Ferrari 19:30
Right, and run with it and run with it and you guys did a great and you guys did a great job with those films. And I imagined I imagined there was a little bit of pressure running into like a very successful franchise at this point. You know,

Henry Joost 19:41
The paranormal three I mean, it's not that there wasn't pressure it was it was a pressure cooker. But there was something about like paranormal three had lower because Panama two did really well but it didn't didn't do as well as Panama one. It was I think seen as sort of a steadily declining franchise. So There wasn't there was, which is pretty normal, I think, you know, unless sometimes things pop. But we were we kind of had a lot of freedom and in paranormal activity three, and had a lot of fun even though it was like, it was this incredibly compressed production window like we landed in LA, six months before the release date. We live in New York and they and Jason Blum was like, I need you guys to get on the first flight, the 6am flight tomorrow. We're like, how long are we going to go? Where are we going to be in LA for and he was like six months until the movie comes out. And we landed there. And there was no script. And there was no cast. And there was like, so we went from nothing at all to a movie in the movie theater in six months.

Alex Ferrari 20:42
And that's a Jason That's Jason

Henry Joost 20:44
That's classic Jason but the it was it was pretty fun. Weirdly, paranormal for became higher pressure because paranormal three did so well that then then all eyes were on four. And I think it actually made it a less and made it a less fun, more kind of constrictive creative environment than three three was like, actually, the codename for the movie was summer camp, I think. And it did kind of feel like summer camp like we were. We had this house, it was all wired up with lights and like, we had to cast everybody was really good at improv, and we were just messing around all day.

Alex Ferrari 21:24
You know, it's fun. And I've had Jason on the show he is a force of nature. Yes. Force of Nature, one of the most entertaining conversations ever. He's a madman. Now, is there something that you wish somebody would have told you at the beginning of your career? Like you guys can go back and tell yourself something like, Listen, guys, this is what you really need to do big first of all, get the shot. Get The Shot of that, of that bride? Yeah.

Henry Joost 21:53
Always make sure one cameras pointed at the bride.

Alex Ferrari 21:57
Other than that, is there anything else you wish you'd keep a camera on the bride? That pretty much covers everything?

Henry Joost 22:04
Yeah. Ben younger gave us good advice, which I which we took. Which was Don't wait. Don't wait forever after your first feature to make your second feature. Make your second feature as quickly as you possibly can. Don't be precious about it. Don't be precious. Just do just do it as quickly as you can. And he said he was like, advice we should have taken which was like, Well, I think when we were at Sundance, were basking in the attention. And like the movie, we're traveling with the movie and stuff like that. I'm doing q&a As he was like, you should be writing your next movie, you should be figuring out your next movie now. Because then when when things die down, you're just gonna be sitting there like, what do I do next? You know?

Rel Schulman 22:47
Yeah. And you get so caught up in the festivals and all those free dinners and meeting Danny DeVito. And you're like, oh, shit, it's been six months, and we don't have anything. And it wasn't easy to get another job because catfish was weird. I realistically, I think people like the storytelling and were curious, but they weren't like, Oh, these let's give these guys like, I don't know, Marvel movie or whatever was whatever you could, whatever they were looking for in 2012, or whatever that was. And so paranormal three was kind of the only job studio gig that we were really up for. Because it fit it matched the style of catfish so well. So we were really lucky that found footage was still a popular genre at that moment. Otherwise, it would have been a tougher transition out of catfish

Alex Ferrari 23:38
Than asking with all the all that attention you guys got off of not only staff fish, but also when you did it with paranormal three. How do you guys keep your egos in check? Because man, that is such a danger in our business. It's like when you start everyone tells you you're great. It's tough. It's tough. Do you guys keep you both? Both of you guys keep each other in check. Yeah,

Henry Joost 23:59
I guess so. Yeah, I think we're pretty hard on ourselves.

Rel Schulman 24:04
A little like Jewish self hate.

Alex Ferrari 24:07
So you said there's so there's a, there's a lot of imposter syndrome, even to this day.

Henry Joost 24:12
Yeah, I think when people are like, Oh, it's really great. I'm, like, irrelevant. Even when we talk to each other in private, we're like, it's okay. Right. It's like, it's better.

Rel Schulman 24:25
I think it's, it's a, it's a, it's a belief that we can keep getting better. So I don't think we're ever going to say like that's as good of a film as we can possibly make. Now it's time to relax. It's like there's always things that we could have improved their shots that we could have gotten. We could have storyboarded more, we could have been more prepared. And we'll get them on the next one. Yeah,

Henry Joost 24:49
We'll do better next time.

Alex Ferrari 24:52
No, I mean, I've talked to so many people on the show that you know, big huge, you know, win Oscars and so on legends and sometimes I go Do you guys still have impostor so From the like, yes. Like, really? It's like massive. It's fascinating to me, but it's like what is

Rel Schulman 25:05
The satisfaction we're looking for as filmmakers? We you know, so paranormal three was, at the time the biggest heart opening weekend ever. Right? Right, right. And we're like, whoa, okay, this feels this feels pretty great. But don't be like doesn't win an Oscar? Of course not. That was not

Alex Ferrari 25:27
What I felt you were robbed personally. That's just documentary.

Rel Schulman 25:35
Exactly. Or was it like, it's not going to the Cannes Film Festival, but a lot of people like it. Yeah. So it's like, you can't really hit every single base with a film. So what is the total satisfaction of filmmakers? I don't know. You just want to feel like you tried your hardest, right?

Alex Ferrari 25:52
And look, if you get a movie made, it's unbearable. If you got a movie finished in the can out people to watch, it's an absolute miracle every Yeah, every time a huge achievement. Oh, it's a massive achievement, especially when you're at that level when you're in the studio system. Even I mean, yeah, you got money, and you've got infrastructure and all that stuff. But that doesn't mean that anything gets even made. It's a it's a mystery, to honest.

Rel Schulman 26:15
Yeah, it's a total miracle every time

Henry Joost 26:18
You make a coherent movie is even harder. Like, I'm like, like, to me compliment start at like, well, you made the movie. Like that's, that's it. That's where they started. And then it's like, and it's coherent. Yeah. Makes nice. I understand what's happening in it. I finished

Rel Schulman 26:39
No, for you to say your kids finished the movie. Whether they liked it or didn't like it like it made.

Alex Ferrari 26:45
That's a win. That's a win. Yeah.

Rel Schulman 26:47
So hard. We married to a one on a movie just to get to the point where the operation the small business, or this has come together has come to life. It's standing on its legs. It's been a year, it's been two years, whatever it is. It's now there's 100 People standing there a lot of money's on the line, and a cameras rolling it's like, amazed. That's a miracle.

Alex Ferrari 27:09
Yeah, without question and, and you know, so you go on to do you know, viral with Jason again, and which was awesome. And nerve, which was such a unique love nerve, like the way that we shot it. The idea behind it. There was a lot of layers to that onion, which was really great. But then you make a movie like project power, which is a slight jump in budget, says cat fish. Just like yeah, it's just like a budget jump

Henry Joost 27:39
1000 times.

Alex Ferrari 27:41
So you're not working on a essentially a mini tentpole movie or a tentpole movie for Netflix. And you're working with an Oscar winner, and a massive movie star like Jamie Foxx. When you walk on the set, how do you guys deal with the pressure of that? Because, you know, look, you're like, I'm in the paranormal. That's a 5 million to depend on four or 5 million. And yeah, you've definitely jumped up in budget with the other films that you did. But even from nerve. I mean, project power is a huge jump for you guys. So how did you guys deal with the pressure of just having that on you with an Oscar winner like Jamie Foxx? You know, legend? Like, and all that stuff? How did you guys deal with it?

Rel Schulman 28:20
Besides Xanax?

Alex Ferrari 28:23
Okay, lots and lots,

Rel Schulman 28:26
Uppers and downers you know, we've never really talked about the sunray. But the moment on day one, where we always give a a speech to the crew, you know, there's 100 people standing around, something motivational like like a coach might do in a great football movie. And there's such a pit of anxiety and nervousness in my chest. Like, it makes me feel like I'm in high school. And I've got to speak to the whole school in the auditorium. Or I don't know if you guys ever jumped off a trapeze when you were a kid. And you look over and go to school. That wasn't a school and so, so I mean, that's the pressure, right? That is pressure, which is everyone's staring at us. I feel like a kid. I don't know how how old they see me as or how experienced they think we are. But I feel like like we're not supposed to be here. And dirty. Yeah. And yeah, we need to prove to them that we know what we're doing. We're comfortable and we're in charge and they can turn they can look at us as confident leaders.

Alex Ferrari 29:36
What is their I mean, that brings up a great point is a lot of times is when especially when when you're young directors, wherever when you're not that young if they just don't know what you've done before. How do you deal with the politics of the set? Like crew like you know, when you've got that, you know, 6060 or 70 year old DP who's been around is like when I worked with Coppola on on the Godfather like and you're like, What are you doing like and you have to kind of come up against like, I want to shoot it this way. You're like, yeah, no, that's not the way we're gonna shoot.

Rel Schulman 30:04
How do you deal with that? One of the special the special effects guy on project power? Feel the rock in Raiders of the Lost Ark? No, like, we were like, it's an honor to meet you.

Alex Ferrari 30:21
So, yeah, exactly. I've had I've had the opportunity to work with these kinds of people like that to you like the guy who built the boulder Raiders. He's probably done a few things in his career.

Henry Joost 30:31
Yeah, so we come out with a lot, a lot of love. Like, we're movie fans. So we're just like, you worked on Honey, I Shrunk the Kids. Like, why was that? How did you build the giant an Oreo? Like, how did you like yeah, that was awesome. But like, I don't know, we I learned a lot from Mike Simmons, who was our, been our cinematographer many times, just about he has this great way of dealing with people and not offending people. And he does like he, there are a couple of mannerisms. Like, he always says, I assume this he'll be he'll got to be won't be like, I assume that you're putting these lights up because we need this to come to the side. Like, it's not like, Why the fuck are you putting these over here? It's like, he'll be like, I like he'll say, his understanding of things. Like, that's really helpful. And like, I think just being being respectful and just being nice. And being you know, and giving people like, you know, I mean, we're not experts in in everything. We're really experts in nothing, you know, and like, you we hire people who are experts in things, who are, who know a lot more have a lot more experience are better. You know, and it's it's like, letting that experience learning from that, you know, but we have been lucky a bunch of times, like on paranormal three. And I think, with Jamie Foxx on project power. We were sort of seen as these like, on three, they were like, Well, these guys are kind of renegades like they made catfish. And my catfish was our reference film for the panel too. So like, maybe you guys can just like show us a thing or two. Jamie Foxx was like, just the greatest person to work with. And he's like, he's like, I trust you guys. I've seen your stuff. Like, show me the way, Tom, you know, tell me what to do. I trust your taste. I think you guys are really cool. And I think he gave us credit of being much cooler than we actually are. But like, you know, I can we haven't had that experience where it's the opposite of that with a movie star where it's someone who's who's guarded and suspicious and doesn't you know, because like that, that trust relationship has to be there for everybody. So it's establishing that making sure it's there.

Alex Ferrari 32:50
Yeah, if I if I make if I make quote, the greatest action film of all time, Patrick Swayze Roadhouse is amazing.

Rel Schulman 33:00
No. So sometimes we hear things people be like, Well, you guys are really nice directors. And we're like, how, what are the other guys like, oh, but but here's, here's the sympathy I have for an asshole director or the empathy. There's so much on the line for us on a movie, that everything that happens, every decision that gets made, everything that's in the movie sort of gets blamed on us blamed or attributed to, if you're working on the movie, you can kind of like move on. As long as your reputation is solid, you can get your next job, like, our next job kind of depends on how this movie does. And so that we feel that pressure every day, and I think maybe some directors are like, I need everyone else to feel that pressure. Why aren't they feeling the same pressure I'm feeling right now. And they explode and they go berserk. And that actually is not conducive to a good situation.

Alex Ferrari 33:59
I mean, yeah, exactly. I think you guys in the next film should show up with monocles and megaphone megaphone.

Rel Schulman 34:06
Yeah. Now, tell me if there's one thing I think you're an expert at. Hopefully, it was more than one thing. It's quiltmaking, which is the how to arrange this tapestry of experts and to get all those squares in the quilt to match and to make an overall piece. Thanks. Yeah.

Henry Joost 34:33
You're talking about people are actual quotes. Actual quotes. Yeah, actually. I can show you my my quote, man. Good.

Alex Ferrari 34:44
Tell me, tell me about your new film a secret headquarters. To family.

Henry Joost 34:49
It's the it's our first it's our first movie that kids can watch.

Alex Ferrari 34:55
Right! I was about to say. I was thinking like, filmography don't seem Yeah, this was a match for your to PG.

Henry Joost 35:02
Yeah, it's a PG movie. It's a family movie. It's really fun. It's actually something that we've wanted to make it's been on our bucket list for a long time is to make a movie that reminds us of the movies that made us fall in love with movies as kids, you know, so it kind of it What were your inspirations?

Alex Ferrari 35:21
What was your inspiration for this?

Henry Joost 35:22
Well, Jerry Bruckheimer when we first talked to him about this, which was a wild experience, he was like, I've got this thing it's it's it's home alone in the Batcave. It's called secret headquarters Home Alone in the Batcave. And we were like, saying no more. Got it. Yeah. We're in. Yeah. And it's, it's about it's about a kid. It's kind of a it's a superhero movie, but it's from the it's from the perspective of the son of the superhero. And what would it be like to be you know, Iron Man's son, but he never told you he's a superhero. Do you think he's just working all the time, but actually, he's got this incredible secret headquarters under his house full of gadgets and, and, you know, an awesome cars and stuff like that. And he's zipping off all over the world, saving the world. Meanwhile, you're at home thinking your dad's like, a nerd. Who's just like fixing people's servers. And we just like really got got our imaginations going. And we were just like, this would be my favorite movie when I was.

Alex Ferrari 36:28
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, everything. If you can't, if this filament came out in like the 80s, you'd be up there with like, Honey, I Shrunk the Kids or, you know, those kinds of or Neverending Story, those kinds. Yeah, those kinds of fun, fun films. And I was watching it. I mean, I definitely could have weeks, obviously nine and a half weeks and too much juncture to injunction. But when I was watching it, you know, you can there's a little bit of Spy Kids floating around. You could sense that the DNA of Spy Kids in there as well. But there's a lot of that too, so much. It was a lot of fun. And oh, and must have been a ball to work with.

Henry Joost 37:06
So great.

Rel Schulman 37:07
What a sweet guy, good natured collaborator,

Alex Ferrari 37:10
That is pretty much like he is in indices. Like what is he's?

Henry Joost 37:16
He's like how he is.

Rel Schulman 37:17
I think he's even kinder than you think he would be.

Henry Joost 37:21
And you forget what a great writer he is. Like he wrote, oh, yeah, he co wrote, you know, Royal Tenenbaums, and Rushmore and bottle rocket. Like, when he when we had rehearsals with him, we got into these dialogue riffs. And would we, we would just write it down and we and then we go home that night, we'd rewrite the scene and we'd send it to him. And he was like, you know, and we, we pop it back and forth. Like, that's, that was such a fun experience to have with an outer.

Alex Ferrari 37:50
Now as directors we all have that day on set. That is like you feel the entire world's gonna come crashing down around you. You losing the sun, camera breaks actor breaks his ankle, whatever. Generally, it's every day something like that happens. But yeah, was there one moment on that film that was like, Oh, my God, what was that moment? And how did you guys get through it?

Rel Schulman 38:10
Yeah, Henry. I don't know if you. I think I just realized today I was going through pictures what the, one of the biggest problems was, I mean, there's always money problems, but there's a huge prop slash character in the movie. And it's the GMO bill. Oh, yeah. Oh, retrofitted. 69 Volkswagen bus that Owen Wilson's character has turned into like a superhero. crime fighting truck. And it wasn't ready. And it was in scenes across the movie, like big action car chase scenes. And the guys who were building it weren't done. And it was shooting in like, two days. And it was so far from done to them.

Henry Joost 38:53
We kept pushing it back. Remember, we were like, there was in the schedule. And we'd be like, well, we'll shoot this side of the scene now. And then in a month, we'll shoot this side of the scene because the thing is background. Yeah, I mean, just like imagine

Rel Schulman 39:06
If they didn't have the Batmobile.

Alex Ferrari 39:08
It doesn't doesn't Yeah, obviously,

Rel Schulman 39:10
The schedule is so fragile, you know, especially with movie stars, like Owen and and he's shooting Loki. You know, it's all like happening the same time. And we're at the point where like the studio and the line producer, everyone's like, well, you need to be ready to erase the gene mobiel from the whole concept from the movie, but you've already shot many scenes where it exists before it gets retrofitted when it's just a VW bus. And that I mean, we really sweat that out.

Henry Joost 39:40
We had staked our our reputations on this vehicle like we like I remember we were kind of dying on our swords about it because there was a lot of pressure even before that to cut it to completely cut it from the movie. And we were like No, just because there was a cannot there can't be a superhero movie without You know, like, a superhero vehicle. And that's just, it just, it has to we have to have that. And it was kind of all it was on us. I remember pulling the picture car guy aside at one point and I was like, Listen, buddy, you got your, your toughest act. That's like, listen, I tried to I'm gonna try to say this in a really nice way. But like, if this thing isn't ready, we're never gonna work again. It was like, Oh, God.

Alex Ferrari 40:29
All right, let me see. If this isn't ready by tomorrow, guys. I know where you live.

Rel Schulman 40:36
We do like a good cop, bad cop thing sometimes where I'll say to the guy. Hey, buddy, I believe in you. You got this and then just walk away. And Henry will style over and be like what He means to say

Alex Ferrari 40:54
You know, it's always fascinating to me that even on some on big budget films like this shit happens.

Henry Joost 41:00
Oh, by the skin of your teeth. Yeah. Like,

Alex Ferrari 41:02
It's like, those indie sensibilities never kind of go away. You. You sometimes gotta like, how am I going to make this work that damn truck? The picture cars not ready. Would you would think that on a budget of this size and this kind of kind of size project? That that would be the least of your issues?

Henry Joost 41:19
Yeah. Yeah, one would think we have yet to work on that movie that's like has such a big budget that you can you know, you don't have to worry about anything. I don't know if that really exists.

Alex Ferrari 41:35
Or one day you'll hear this this sentence. All you have is time and money, guys. So enjoy yourself. You'll never that's a sentence that no filmmaker has ever heard ever. Right? No matter who you are. Maybe Chris Nolan may be crystal. Yeah, maybe. Maybe just a conversation. Now. When's this coming out? Guys?

Henry Joost 41:54
August 12.

Rel Schulman 41:55
Not just that next week. It's in a little more than a week. Yeah.

Henry Joost 42:00
Paramount plus.

Alex Ferrari 42:01
Now I'm going to ask you a few questions. I asked all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Rel Schulman 42:10
Say yes. To any project offered to you.

Henry Joost 42:15
Do not don't think camera at the bride. You read my mind. At least one camera

Alex Ferrari 42:21
At all times. No, just because a lot of times we get a little uppity as filmmakers and just like no I'm I'm the next. Spielberg. I'm the next Tarantino. I don't do weddings. You know?

Rel Schulman 42:32
Yeah, I don't I don't see why not a wedding is built in drama. I mean, look at a wedding is a documentary about people on a really important day with a lot of pressure. And all fam. I mean, some of the greatest movies. It's a genre of filmmaking, which is the family gathering the reunion, you know, like the Big Chill or something like that. Or Rachel Getting Married. Those are great movies. You have an opportunity. someone's paying you to make a documentary about that. That's the way we approached it. And it was it was great training.

Henry Joost 43:03
Yeah, it. Just practice, practice, practice, practice, man.

Alex Ferrari 43:07
Any job that came along, man, I would take it. I didn't care what it was like you're gonna pay me to edit. I'll work you're gonna pay me to shoot. I'll do it. It's just Yeah. And sometimes it's great. Yeah, a lot of times it isn't. But at least you're not out there hustling another job. And you get to at least work on your craft.

Rel Schulman 43:23
Yeah, exactly. Most of them weren't great.

Henry Joost 43:25
Yeah. No, they weren't. No terrible.

Alex Ferrari 43:30
Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Rel Schulman 43:36
Changed my socks midday. What what I was waiting for.

Henry Joost 43:42
That was a good one. even change your shoes.

Rel Schulman 43:44
Yeah. Oh, yeah. We bring two pairs of shoes to set now. Do you really? Yeah. Yeah. Just like yeah, freshen up.

Henry Joost 43:52
Those are like, I'll tell you what the great feeling.

Alex Ferrari 43:56
They never teach you this in film school. Good shoes on set on set because I'm always on my feet. I don't know about you guys. I'm all day. You rarely sit down. I like when I sit down. I'm like, Oh, God, I can't get back.

Henry Joost 44:11
I keep going. You gotta keep moving.

Rel Schulman 44:12
Yeah, totally. Man. I think Doug Doug Liman does not accept the director's chair on his sets. Because he refuses to ever sit down on set.

Henry Joost 44:25
And as a few directors, I've heard that don't allow chairs at all.

Alex Ferrari 44:29
Yeah, there's a there's a few. I mean, and then there's our cell phones. And then there's the Peter Jackson's who have a recliner on set.

Henry Joost 44:39
I'm talking about Lord of the Rings.

Alex Ferrari 44:40
They would just literally carry around a lazy boy. He would just sit down it was the best

Rel Schulman 44:47
Apparently the room we cut project power and on Sixth Avenue in New York City was the room that Oliver Stone cut something in Henry remember? Yeah, he had a leather recliner brought into that edit room that he just loved.

Alex Ferrari 45:00
But listen, I've had I've had Oliver Stone on the show, and, and he was one of the most interesting conversations I've ever had in mind. He is so smart. Oh my God, he's he's so so smart. And, and I tell people this all the time and you guys, I think you guys would agree. There's not another 10 year period. And any filmography, like Oliver stops from platoon from platoon, every movie a year, and everyone was like Oscar, Oscar incredible. Oscar, it's just, there's just nobody that's ever had a run like that.

Rel Schulman 45:40
It's Yeah, well, a couple is run is pretty solid, too.

Alex Ferrari 45:43
Well, you know, he's sorry, you did okay.

Henry Joost 45:47
I would I recommend Oliver Stones book is really great. Oh, yeah. That's why he was especially especially listening to it on on tape or on Audible. Like, he has such a great voice. Oh, yeah, it's a great audio, but it's uh, I love film filmmaker audiobooks.

Rel Schulman 46:04
We loved Barry Sonnenfeld book.

Alex Ferrari 46:07
Dude, I got when we when we get off. I'll tell you the story. Had Barry on the show, too. And in the first five minutes, he told me his porn story of how he got started in porn. I'll tell you that.

Henry Joost 46:16
Oh, my God. To me that chapter is like I think what's in the book, right? It's disgusting.

Alex Ferrari 46:23
The first five minutes of our conversation. He's that's what he starts with. I'm like, okay, Barry. I guess you've set the tone now. Porn man, that's how I got my start porn.

Rel Schulman 46:38
But in the book he's talking about and how he started and he said yes to everything and yeah. And the

Alex Ferrari 46:45
Pays camera off. He had to pay 60 millimeter camera off. Yeah.

Rel Schulman 46:49
Maybe a little longer than he needed to.

Alex Ferrari 46:51
By the way that porn paid half half the camera off in a week. So yeah,

Rel Schulman 46:55
I mean any shoot loves really worth it.

Alex Ferrari 46:58
From a party that he'd met this tall. You know, same guy in the corner who isn't talking to anybody is like, Hey, I got a camera. Hey, you want to shoot something? Great. That's your star starts.

Rel Schulman 47:08
Yeah, but it was just the sizzle reel for blood. So that was the system. It was you don't get paid to do?

Alex Ferrari 47:14
Nope. But then he got that. And then I think Raising Arizona. Oh God. What a great conversation. Great career. And last question three of your favorite films of all time.

Henry Joost 47:24
The Big Lebowski Yep, that's it.

Alex Ferrari 47:31
It stops there. Big Lebowski that's pretty much

Rel Schulman 47:37
Yeah, Big Lebowski. Gray man and red notice

Alex Ferrari 47:44
Very strategic answer sir very very steep.

Rel Schulman 47:49
I find that I find that to be the hardest question Am I still allowed to say Woody Allen movies?

Alex Ferrari 47:53
Look man look at any hostel Andy Hall brother. I'm sorry I'm sorry Annie Hall is still Annie Hall. I don't I mean, it's a masterpiece and

Rel Schulman 48:05
It's a masterpiece. You know what I've but if you're if it's there's got to be a Kubrick movie in there which there probably should be Barry Lyndon No, you're like bear Oh, yeah. Yeah, and it's not just to be different

Alex Ferrari 48:18
Mine is Eyes Wide Shut I'm an Eyes Wide Shut guy.

Rel Schulman 48:21
Oh you because you're a pervert. Very Seinfeld episode.

Alex Ferrari 48:30
Obviously the pervert that's why I love Oh, no, we could talk for hours on Kubrick alone Jesus man. Talk about somebody who just had all did whatever the hell he wanted. But but the ledges after I've talked to a bunch of people who worked with him. He's like he had a set of like, 10 people. Yeah, I finally was able to shoot for a year with Tom Cruise. Yeah. 10 people on set?

Rel Schulman 48:51
Yeah, who really believed in him. And we're like soldiers in his in his army.

Alex Ferrari 48:57
He locked up two of the biggest movie stars in the world for a year and a half. I mean, what kind of juice is that? Like? Seriously? I mean, Jesus, guys, it has been a pleasure talking to you both. So it Congratulations on all your success. I can't wait to see what you guys come up with next. And what do you guys have cooking next, by the way? Let's see something about this is something I'm Megaman

Rel Schulman 49:19
Yeah, Megaman adaptation of Megaman for Netflix. God plusspec Write about like the future of automation. Nice. Yeah, it's gonna be really cool man and robot becoming one good or bad.

Alex Ferrari 49:37
Guys, you see, it has been an absolute pleasure, guys. congrats on all your success and continue continued success.

Rel Schulman 49:43
Thanks Alex. Thanks for all the hustle .

Henry Joost 49:45
Thank you so much.

IFH 605: Vampires, Stunts, Bloodsuckers & Netflix with JJ “Loco” Perry

JJ “Loco” Perry spent the last 25 years as a Stunt Coordinator and Second Unit Director, directing and designing action for talent such as Dwayne Johnson, Tom Hardy, Jason Statham, Keanu Reeves and Will Smith. A member of the prestigious 87Eleven Action Design, Perry previously collaborated with directors such as Ang Lee, Justin Lin, Chad Stahelski, F. Gary Gray, Spike Lee and Paul Feig – which prepared him for his feature directorial debut on DAY SHIFT.

Perry has trained additional actors for stunts such as Gina Carano (HAYWIRE), Gerard Butler (300), Milla Jovovich (ULTRAVIOLET), Hugh Jackman (X-MEN ORIGINS: WOLVERINE) and Kiefer Sutherland (“24”).  He’s also worked with Joss Whedon on ANGEL and FIREFLY and Mike Norris on WALKER, TEXAS RANGER.

Perry was nominated for a SAG Award in 2009 for Outstanding Performance by a Stunt Ensemble for IRON MAN and nominated for a World Stunt Award in 2013 for SAFE and won in 2004 for Best Overall Stunt in THE RUNDOWN.

After graduating high school, Perry served in the Army’s 82nd Airborne Corps.  He started his martial arts training in 1975 and began stunt-work after he got out of the Army. He has had over 24 years of martial arts training and has a 5th-degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do, a 2nd-degree on Hapkido and has experience with all kinds of weapons. He got his black belt for Tae Kwon Do at the age of 12 and competed from the age of 7 till 24. Besides martial arts, Perry is also skilled in cycling, rodeo and weightlifting.  He is the co-founder of Taekwondo West martial arts schools in Inglewood, California, and Venice, California.

J.J. PERRY’s directorial debut, DAY SHIFT, is an action-comedy that begins a new franchise for Netflix starring Jamie Foxx, Snoop Dogg and Dave Franco. DAY SHIFT follows a hard-working blue-collar dad (Fox) who just wants to provide a good life for his daughter.  But his mundane San Fernando Valley pool cleaning job is a front for his real source of income, hunting and killing vampires as part of an international union of vampire hunters. DAY SHIFT premieres on NETFLIX August 12, 2022.

Take a quick inside look on the making of Day Shift.

Enjoy my conversation with JJ “Loco” Perry.

Right-click here to download the MP3

J.J. Perry 0:00
Day Shift is an example of stuff we get everything in camera, even the contortions, I just shot it in reverse. And so it's so you know, like, doesn't speak to me to do to work on a big cartoon movie. And I've worked on a ton of movies where everything's animated, you spent five months in a blue screen stage. That's not what I want to do.

Alex Ferrari 0:17
This episode is brought to you by the Best Selling Book, Rise of the Filmtrepreneur how to turn your independent film into a money making business. Learn more at filmbizbook.com. I'd like to welcome to the show. JJ Perry. How're you doing JJ?

J.J. Perry 0:32
Good my brother, how are you?

Alex Ferrari 0:34
I'm good, man. I'm good. Now there is sometimes I see in your credits. There's another name in between JJ and Perry. Which is locco? Is Is that Is that true, sir? Look at all. For people who are listening, he just stood up and showed me his tattoo of locco on his stomach. Listen, before we even get started brother I've worked with a ton of stunt people over the over the course of my career. I have yet to meet a stunt person who's not nuts in the best, most beautiful loving way that word could be used. I've I've had this is what this is. This is this is the conversation with some people when I ever worked with him on his set as a director. I need you to jump off that and you jump off that that building over there he goes, Can I can I go play? Can we go five floors? No, no, I just third floors fine. No, no, I can do I can go 10 floors, I can just move on. I could do 15 If you want to do and you want me to be on fire, I could be on fire. I need it for my real can I be on fire too? And I'm like, can I work? So it's like, no matter what I asked, they'd be like, no, no, no, that's not enough. We can I could drive the car off the roof on fire flip through.

J.J. Perry 1:39
Oh, that's kind of the that's kind of the mentality. You know, like, it's we're always trying to go bigger, faster, stronger. You know, that's kind of the where the where the mindset is always trying to outdo what we did last time. You know, it's like anything else, you know, you you want to step one step beyond what you did last time, we always trying to we're always trying to push the envelope.

Alex Ferrari 1:56
No, absolutely. And, and every every staff person I've ever worked with has been the utmost professional. And it seems like they're not, but there's so calculated and so specific about what they're doing. So everyone stay safe, you know, and all that kind of stuff because I mean, you know, stuff that you guys do is this insane and, and it can't go wrong. And it's really it's really amazing what you do and you met so let's take it let's take it back where the how and why did you get into this insanity that is the film business.

J.J. Perry 2:25
So I graduated from high school back in 86 out of out of Stanford, Texas, and I worked on two films that came through Houston one was called pray for death. It was a show Kosugi film back when the ninja craze was out. And another one was call. They still call me Bruce. It was like an action comic.

Alex Ferrari 2:43
I remember. I remember that movie dude those amazing.

J.J. Perry 2:46
Johnny and the Korean guy, Korean actor. And so you know, I'd already sworn in to go to join the army. So there was no getting out of that. And towards the end of my stint in the army I out processed two to Fort Ord California. I was that's where I was going to out process from. And when I was at Fort Ord, I was on the army taekwondo team. At the time I was going down, I was competing all over California and all over, you know, the US and et cetera. And I went down to LA a couple times to compete. And some of the guys I was competing against were were stunt men. And you know, because I'd been stationed Korea for a year I was I had a leg up on him. You know, I was you know, competing on a very high level at that time. And but one of the guys who's no longer with his name is Chris Cornell was a dear friend of mine. He died in a motorcycle wreck a couple years ago. But he were the same size, same age. And I was like, what do you get? He had nice shoes, nice car, and I was like, Dude, what are you drunk? Do you because No, man, I'm a stuntman. And coming down from from Fort Ord, you know, like, came down and train a few times. About two weeks later, he said, Hey, man, there's a big audition here for a movie called Lionheart it was Van Damme second movie. Yeah, so I took a three day pass drove down and booked the job but the problem was when I went back to ask my first sergeant if I could you know take three weeks off to do a movie he was like, No, you can do no movie boy you we got work to do. We got Army work to do boy so they called me Hollywood up until the time I out processed and then I told them you know, like I said, you know, I didn't know what I was going to do at that time. I figured I would go down to LA and give it a try. I didn't really know anyone except for Chris and I figured you know I'm gonna give it a try and so I just drove down to five South never made the left turn on the tend to go back to Texas and I thought I would probably fuck that up for sure and be back in the army at no time because I knew they'd be saving a seat at the table for me but it just worked out and here we are 32 years later talking about my talking about my movie that I just directed which I can't believe so I never expected any of this my brother I fumbled my way through all of it. And I'm super grateful for every moment that I've had.

Alex Ferrari 4:53
So what was so what was your first big break in the as a as a stunt guy?

J.J. Perry 4:59
Well, So we kind of broke down like this. I didn't really the first week I landed in LA I, I was answering phones at a taekwondo school on Wilshire in La Jolla as well to some taekwondo. And there was a call for they were looking for guys for the cross trainer, Reebok commercial, the very first one for the Super Bowl at that time. And one of the guys that she said, Hey, I don't have my car, can you give me a lift one of the guys that was like an actor type, do did had an agent and whatever. So I drove him over there. And it was in it was in West Hollywood. Park, he goes in, he's taking a while. So I put 50 cents in the meter. I go upstairs and the lady says, Hey, did you put your name down on so I wrote down my name and the number of the taekwondo school. And then I wrote down my friend's name and his agents name and I went in because the movie The commercial was about, it was about basic training. It was like called the Reebok cross trainer pumps. But it was like, they shave your head. It was like an army thing. So I went in there. I was like, Barry, JJ, ak 541109. You know, they were like, oh, shoot, who's this guy? You know, I just literally just got out of the army. And I booked booked that job. So that's how it started? No, I didn't anticipate like when the when the checks started coming in the mailbox. Or, you know, you know, you make 750 bucks a month in the army. I almost started crying, you know, and, and then we have been forever.

Alex Ferrari 6:21
So for everybody listening. You were in a Superbowl commercial. What was we talking about? The early mid 80s?

J.J. Perry 6:26
No, I'm talking about like, 1990 for the

Alex Ferrari 6:30
Right. So your your 1990 Superbowl commercials, the money the residuals off flop? Flop? It's insane. I'm talking about 10s of 1000s of dollars in 1990.

J.J. Perry 6:43
Yep, yeah, that's true. And then then I started doubling a double Lorenzo Lamas a few times down on Renegade, we're down in San Diego, then I doubled Russell Wong and a TV series called vanishing son that that I told you about Jeff cut TNT earlier, a dear friend of ours. Yeah. And kind of how it started, you know, like stunt work is networking. And, you know, it's kind of like they're, they're always looking for the man or woman that's not scared to go big, and it's safe. And they're not looking for the crazies. They're looking for the calculated smart, you know, individuals who, who are ready to go big and have a strong physicality and, you know, having a background in Taekwondo and being in the military, like, when I got out of the army, I didn't realize what I wouldn't be able to apply some of the skills I learned in the army was except for being a cop. But then I quickly realized that, you know, the hard work and the work ethic of being in the Army after the army, nothing else is really ever hard again, you know, so I got that out of the way pretty quick in life. So it was really easy for me to get up at five in the morning and do my road work and go out and meet people and do my thing. So yeah, that's how it all happened for me was those two TV shows got me going in that commercial. And here we are.

Alex Ferrari 7:50
So but so there is I mean, I think there is a stunt school now. But there was Was there anything like a stunt score? Did you just learn on the job,

J.J. Perry 7:56
Learn on the job, and I'll never forget my first car hit, you know, I had to do a get hit by a car on Renegade, they wanted me to want to run into the middle of the street with a with a with a female stunt woman, there's a briefcase and illustrating, they want us to race to the briefcase, and then a Lincoln Continental hits us both. So I'm thinking to myself, you know, I don't want to seem like a you know, like, I don't know what I'm doing. But I also don't want to get killed or make a mistake and hurt my my, my counterpart. So I asked the stunt coordinator, I said, Well, you know, What's the objective of this? He said, Well, your objective is not to get underneath the car row. So, so Right, right, or get light on your feet, write up the hood, get up into the windshield, and if he punches you through, just go all the way over. And if he doesn't just get you know, get outside the car. And so what I did was I just got very aggressive and I the car actually hits you, but I in my mind, I was thinking I'm gonna hit the car. And next thing I know, it was light, it was darker, his life was darker, his life was dark, and boom, I was on the pavement. I was like, Oh, that was so bad. You know. So there was my first part of it.

Alex Ferrari 8:57
I gonna ask you man and I've always wanted to ask, I always wanted to ask them a stunt guy this. What is it in the brain? There's something in your mind in your brain that allows you to go hey, that wasn't so bad. You just said. I think that's absolutely horrific, personally, because that's not that's not in my DNA. So what is it? What is that thing that stunt people have? That not only do they want to do it and enjoy doing it, but they want to continue to one up themselves and keep pushing themselves physically with the complexity of this stuff. And we haven't gotten into fight coordination which we'll get into but but just instance there's something in the DNA of some people that I've at least that I've experienced. What is that? I'd love to hear your opinion on that.

J.J. Perry 9:42
So the generation before me that what I came in were a lot there were a lot of cowboys, you know, and being from Texas, I'm you know, kind of a cowboy too, but that background of riding rodeo or bull riding or bronc riding or or bulldogging you know, you have to be able to you know, can't can't be scared to get hit. So a lot of stuff Non performers come from, you know, a rodeo background or an athletic background like football players or so. But for me, I had 168 amateur fights when I got out of the army. So, like, I wasn't scared to get hit. And you know, being an athlete on that level, like being on the national team or being competing on that level, you have to, there's a lot of me, there's that moment of truth that we all have, you know, like that where you can't lie in that moment, you have to be very real about what's going to happen and you have to make peace with it, you have to be calm in that moment, in all those years of competition, and being in the Army helped me settle into being in a very precarious position. And being being at peace with it, and making up my mind, okay, I did one you can, it's not just like, you're gonna do one, you're gonna get one time, you're probably gonna do it three or four times. It's also pain management, it's also your ability to to strive under pain, like when you get when you're getting hurt now that the difference between getting hurt and getting injured, getting hurt means you get up and do it again, getting injured means you're and you're on a ride and in an ambulance to the hospital gets sewn up or a broken bone. So I would say that most of the stunt performers, we all share the same likes, you know, like, we all came from an athletic background, or you know, X Games now, which I think are some of the most amazing people parkour athletes. Now, you know, UCLA liberal level, gymnasts, some of the some of the best female stunt performers that I work with were elite gymnast at some point, because, you know, you think like, my daughter is in gymnastics, and she started when she was four, but you have the little girls doing this, where they're peeling their hands up, and they're dealing with pain, and there, it's all about that one second, that you have to hit the vault, right? You know, you have to gather all that, you have to make up your mind, I'm going for it. So that's kind of like doing being a stunt performer. You know, you just have to be able to, to not lie in the moment of truth to be present in the moment of truth and execute, you know, so it's all about seeing yourself do it. So I feel like that's something that we all have in common. You know, like one of the one of the big things for me is like being on the road with a bunch of like minded folks coming up with just killer ways to physically displace humans, that's my job, you know, is, is coming up with clever ways to do it, but not injure them, you know, but make it like, because now there's more movies and more content being made than any time in the history of cinema, film. And the expectations are way higher, when way higher, you know, that like with video games, and anime, and all these other things that kids are watching. Now they, you know, diehard is a great example of a movie that I loved in the 80s. But if you if you put a 16 year old kid to watch that now, they'll be on their phone looking at their Instagram in 20 minutes. You know, it's just it's not what they're, it's not going to capture their attention. You know what I mean? It's it's stuff that we've done already, which is it's AMAZING film. And I've got to work with McKiernan before. He's an amazing director. But that's an example to me of where it came from, and where it's going. You know,

Alex Ferrari 12:49
That's really interesting, because, I mean, I was watching, cuz I'm a huge fan of fall guy, the original show back in the day. And my wife and I were watching it. This is like, probably five, six years ago, we sat down and we watched the first full first season because we're like, oh, man, remember, fall guy. Let's go back and watch those man, those were frickin awesome. And you're watching it. And as you're watching what they did on a weekly basis, on a weekly basis, you're like, that was all real. Like, these guys are insane. You don't see that kind of that kind of stunt work in television today. It was just, they were doing gags. I mean, jumping off roofs, I'm like, full blown. It was insane what they were doing. And you're going back. And that's Oh, that was all in camera. We're now I think and you've seen you've started at a point where it was all still in Canberra. And now you've got digital stunt performers doing some really insane stuff. But I do think that as as, as the audience, we can tell when, you know, Fast and Furious is fun. But you know, and the Marvel movies are fun. But, and there's some performers that do do stuff there is great, but when you watch something like John Wick, you feel it a lot more. And you've been on you've worked on John Wick, obviously, but you feel that this is not a CG situation.

J.J. Perry 14:08
You know, listen, around 2003 or four, everybody started saying, oh, we'll fix it and post. You know, for me, and I'll tell you something about Fast and Furious, because I've done too. I did eight, nine a second year directed at none. And I'll tell you something, we did wreck 340 cars, and we do go 1000 miles an hour when we're doing those movies. So there is a dirty way to fake fast is to go really fast. It's fast and furious, not slow and curious. But at the end of the day, it's a day for me. It's like I day shift is an example of stuff. We did everything in camera, even the contortions I just shot it in reverse. And so it's all that so you know, like, doesn't speak to me to do to work on a big cartoon movie. I don't I've worked on a ton of movies where everything's animated. You spent five months in a blue screen stage. That's not what I want to do. I don't usually take a look For those jobs, I'm looking for the jobs where I can lock up Edinburgh, Scotland like on Fast and Furious eight, and do a massive car chase and chase flying over cities on wires and fighting and breaking new buildings, or John Wick or you know any of these new like, I'll give an example Gemini Man is another example of an amalgamation of both. We went to Cartagena, Colombia and this massive motorcycle chase that we did all practically. And then with a augmented Will Smith's face onto the motorcycle writer. So there's an element of both that I think works, okay, that I like, when it's a complete digital takeover. And pretty soon, you know, I think action directing is going to be a lost art soon. There's not a lot of this, it's infinitely harder to lock to block a big car chase up, when you got 19 cars and for motorcycles and helicopters and explosions. That's, that's not easy to do. It's actually a lot harder to do than most people think. That's where second unit comes in. And in all the experience that I gained from being a second year director, making the efficient and fast and it's like, it's like, cool, I'm not thinking about my shot. I'm thinking about my next five shots and my leaves to get to every shot. That's, that's filmmaking. I'm running nine cameras sometimes. So it's that it's that nine cameras spread, redirect, next street, the nine cameras that and push pull track counter, and then mount and then go to the next street. So, you know, that's something that I think will be a lot start soon, because there'll be animating those cars at some point, you know, which breaks my heart, but I'll be long gone by then.

Alex Ferrari 16:34
Exactly. No, I mean, yeah, I mean, when I said like fossil fuels, I remember like when they do jumping a car from a building to a building, I'm assuming I didn't do that live? No. But things like that. But yeah, there was in those those shows specifically, there's a ton of cars that they use, and you could tell that there's cook. And that's one of the things that made the original, so amazing, it was all real in camera. And that's the thing you're right, there's a lost art I have to want to ask you is it think it's confusing to a lot of people listening, especially young filmmakers, what is the hierarchy in the stunt department. So you start off with like a stunt performer? What is the hierarchy as far as the department heads and things,

J.J. Perry 17:09
I can tell you the way it went for me, I started as a utility stuntman, then I became a stunt double. And because of my background in martial arts, and being in the army, I started become I started courting, choreographing the fights that I was in. And then that led me to becoming a fight choreographer. And then I became a stunt coordinator. And then I became a second unit director. And you know, there's, there's a lot of ways to climb the ladder, but I feel like that's the long route. But that's the most important route to take. Because if you miss one of the rooms, you want to you want to hit every rung you want to learn every facet of the game, you know, driving motorcycles, water, fighting, falling fire, you know, horseback, every facet, the more facets that are on the diamond, the shinier that diamond is and the more money you can eventually make it with your in your profession. So I wanted to educate myself on every facet of that. And that's that's how it went. For me. It's a bit different now because now there's infinitely more jobs than there are than there were when I started in. Now, you can come in as a specialist on a fight guy, oh, I'm a parkour guy, or I'm a gymnast, or, and that's that's the way they come in. And that's the way they go. So but you know, that doesn't, I'm not knocking them. There's some amazing talent out there. Now with you know, I think once YouTube hit, and editing software became a consumer products, editing software made a lot of us action directors, because once you know how to edit, it informs what you need to shoot. And you know, growing up on watching that as meet at Jackie Chan films where he really changed the game of fightings. And he's one of them. He's an idol of mine, because he's a stuntman that became a star and then became an action director. So I mean, that's, you know, like he was a Charlie Chaplin and a, what's his name? Buster Keaton, Buster Keaton. He was in Kansas, a huge fan of we all are, but that's kind of where his inspiration came from. And our my generation like I came up with Chad's to hausky, and in Dave Leach, and a lot of the guys over at 711 I'm a member of that crew and I'm also a member of sons unlimited. Who were those original guys that did the fall guy since Unlimited is they've been around since 1973. But that's um yeah, but that's kind of how it was. And you know, watching chance trajectory is kind of the way like, has he changed what we do did we took his movies and we were reshoot shoot his action sequences with cameras and then cut them even on VHF, ah, VHS deck to deck until Final Cut became a consumer product we all chipped in, and then we all learn how to edit. And then we became action directors, budding action directors.

Alex Ferrari 19:43
Now, you know, with all the insane, you know, gags that you guys have done over the years has had there ever has there ever been a stunt that you just said, Nah, man, I gotta walk away from this one. This is just too, too risky.

J.J. Perry 19:57
The biggest thing I ever did was getting married to a lawyer. So no, I look at the end of the day. I'm not I'm just okay in the water. You know, I'm not I'm not. I've done it's done though. Did you see the movie? The Rundown? Yeah, of course. Yeah the Roku I was doubling Sean William Scott when we went down the mountain and over the falls and all that shit. Me and Paul Heliopolis and ton of I read Marcos roar we were there was two sets of doubles for each because we were getting so busted up. And there was a scene where we had to go into a lagoon and swim towards a waterfall. And yeah, Bhutan and jeans on and tunnel. I read his Hawaiian, he's from Hawaii's big. He's like a shark. When he gets in the water. He's massive. And he's like, you know, he's got gills you can swim like a fish. And his wife was doubling the girl in there and she's another one grew up in Hawaii. He's like, after take three or four I started getting really tired. I was like, Hey, man, I'm probably need to tap out. So I would say like doing a lot of water work for me is not my forte. I'm like a brick. I'm like a brick from Texas. You put me in the water. And I might go right to the bottom row.

Alex Ferrari 21:02
Fair enough. Now you You also got involved in one of my favorite films of the 90s Mortal Kombat, man. Dude, how did you get involved with them? Then you eventually played some of the parts of like sub zero and those kinds of things. I mean, again, those at the time. I remember at the time and I mean, you couldn't go anywhere without listening to that damn song. In the radio, first of all, what was it? I mean, how did you get involved with that project, man, and how did you guys make it look so cool back then.

J.J. Perry 21:30
So I was I used to have two taekwondo schools in LA while I was a stuntman. I had one in Inglewood. It's called take one to west, one in Inglewood and one in Sherman Oaks. And the one in Sherman Oaks. I had a friend named Dana he who was already working on the movie, she was an Olympic gold medalist from taekwondo. We're friends from my sport from taekwondo. We were teammates like friends, you know, competitors together and dear friends. He was dating Larry cows and off the producer of Mortal Kombat at the time. They were looking for a stunt double for Johnny Cage for the additional photography of Mortal Kombat. One key brings Larry into my school in the middle of one of my classes, and I can see Luke staring at me and I'm like Dino, who's the dude staring Bisleri Cazenovia brutish, and short combat, and, you know, classes over I meet him like, nice to meet you, sir. Can you say Hey, can you show me some kids and I bust out a 540. And I bust out a bunch of oh, man, it's awesome. Can you turn around for me? And I was like, what's that mean? He's looking at the back of my head. So if I could double the actor who's playing Johnny Cage, and he was like, this perfect. Two days later, I get a call from Robin Chu, who was the was the star of the movie. And also one of the fight coordinators and Jeff and moto was a stunt coordinator, I get a call, Hey, you want to come down and double Johnny Cage for the additional fight with scorpion on the on the bamboo bridge thing and it was a it was a big additional scene. So I got to do that. And as soon as that was, you know, as soon as it was a big hit, they greenlit to then I played scorpion and Cyrax into and did some doubling for little doubling for Raiden a little doubling for smoke a little doubling for all the characters but played to the characters. And then when the TV series came out in there, he called me and says, Hey, we come down and double come loud, so double calm loud for the first few episodes. And then they said, Can you play scorpion? Can you play SubZero? And I was like, Yeah, dude, I do whatever. You know, like, I'm happy. Like, I was always concerned about my acting, but when you have that thing on your face, you know, it's like, just zero. So I want some zero now I'm Chubs zero. That's how it goes. But that was like my Mortal Kombat experience. You know, like, I was super, super stoked. Now that a lot of the youngsters that work for me now they pull it up on YouTube, and I'm a little embarrassed about my bad acting and whatever, you know, a loincloth

Alex Ferrari 23:39
It's the 90s Bro, what are you gonna do? Basically bills dog what are you gonna do? It pays the bills and pay the bills? No question. Now, you know, is it as you became a second unit director, which I still think second unit directors are some of the most technically sound directors out there. If you can direct action. You can direct cinema because it's a visual medium. I think what someone who said it is like my favorite directors are action directors like Tony Scott, and those in those kinds of guys who just are so technical, and visual. What are mistakes that directors make when setting up an action sequence that you've seen?

J.J. Perry 24:19
So you know what we've done? Like at 711 is is the team I've been on before that it was called Smash cuts and it was it was kind of a the crew of us that came up in the 90s together likes to hausky leach Marcus young Mike Gunther Danny her net there was a bunch of Brad Martin and Garrett Warren. These are all guys that are prominent social media directors now that are running the they're running all the fights up in the last 30 years what we did once the Final Cut came out we start shooting stunt does what which is an act we shoot and cut the sequence before we go to the set on we make a room full of boxes that measures out from the production designer and then we shooting cut it sure offer shot where we make the action the star. Without we want to tell our students certain story points after having a discussion with the director, and a discussion with the DP about his style, you know, like, and we, we give them a broad outline of what it would look like, based on their version. And usually we get it right within three versions, like we tied it up within three verses, I've been paired up in the past few years with a lot of first and second time directors, I get paired up with them often to, you know, to help when it comes to the action, it can be quite daunting, you know, like, if you're not used to doing it. And you're right, locking up Scotland with a bunch of cars, and doing why work over a city, and using nine cameras, is infinitely harder. Now that I've done both than directing a scene with three people in a room talking, unless you don't have three good actors. Well, there's bad actors, maybe it's way harder. But my point being the technical execution of that the application of filmmaking is is extremely difficult, especially when you're going 70 miles an hour. And you're gonna go like through seven streets with explosions and whatever, and you have a finite amount of time to do it. Because second unit is never is elaborate, or is funded is first unit is it has to be a streamlined, streamlined event that that moves like that moves like a rocket. So I think one of the mistakes that one of the mistakes that a lot of first and second time directors make is not having a clear vision of what they want. And sometimes my job is to help them discover their vision, whether he or she knows what it is or not. So it's my kind of I always take it upon myself is it's my job, and they don't know, to show them. And they give them options too. That's my job as a stunt coordinator, as a fight coordinator, and a second unit director is to help the director achieve their vision of the action, which is harder than achieving your vision of the action. When I know what I want, I always know what I want. So as a director, I came in with a really solid plan for my movie, I'd had to set my production designer, Greg Berry, we already knew what the sets were going to be and where to put the neoprene in which walls needed to fly because the cameras gonna do this I already knew. So it's, it's it's a new, it's like, it's in the neighborhood that I've been roaming around for 32 years. And if you're new to the neighborhood, it's easy to get lost. And I think a lot of the one of the things that some directors are a little intimidated by is they don't want to, they don't want to, they want to go out and wander around and find it for themselves. And that's cool. But we're not in film school, we're in film work when we're making a movie. So you do have a finite amount of time. And you have to be decisive because every decision you make, as a director has a ripple effect from all of the departments that it has to go to production designer, okay, you're fighting, go to tear this costume needs to go, you punch him here, what makeup needs this, you're gonna break his arm props and prosthetic arm needs to go and using. So you have to be decisive and give your team a chance to react to your decisions. So it's not last minute. And this is one of the mistakes that I think a lot of first time directors make is there. They don't want to decide that they will not make decisions in time.

Alex Ferrari 28:20
Now, when you were involved with John Wick, I mean, that must have been a dream. Like that project must be because it was just such a old school approach to fights. And it's not like being caught 50,000 angles. It's like you see Keanu beaten up three guys one shot. And you it's not like the famous one is like, you know, I don't know if you know who shot taken three or two or whatever. But you see, you know, I saw this one, this one sequence somebody on YouTube, it was so beautiful. It's like, it's Liam running and jumping across a fence as he's chasing somebody with 75 cards. I was like no joke was a tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick tick. As opposed to something like John Wick you just look at and you're like, that's just that's a What was it like to just get in the car and go on. I'm not gay brother.

J.J. Perry 29:09
So I was on Expendables three in Bulgaria with Jason Statham and Sylvester Stallone on a container in, in, in. In Sofia shooting machine guns when Chad Stahelski called me we're, we're teammates and you know, mad respect to Chad and Dave for what all that they've accomplished. You know, they that style of mixing Judo with jujitsu in gun work. He calls me and I was about to finish up in Expendables three he said, Hey, listen, I'm doing the shoot out in a nightclub in New York on this on my movie John Wick. I need your help because I was in the army. So I know how to work the gun work and and look, we were all a big fans of hardboiled. You know, the John was so but I want to get my hands on those Chinese guns that have 500 bullets in them. He never reloads I love those guns. I want to get one of those. But that's one of the things that we one of the monitors will I was that we would be true to that. If you're running a Glock 17. With a regular magazine, you have 15. And one, you have an extended mag you get at 17 and one or 18 and one. So that was it, I got the call to come down, they were shooting the lat the final scene out in the dark when he's fighting the father of the guy at the end, he gives me an address of a nightclub and says we want to shoot, we want to start shooting, we're gonna shoot this nightclub scene at this place. Can you go there, I got there on a Friday afternoon. They're shooting at night. So I just drove to that address gave the door guy 100 bucks to let me in and walk through there. He said it'll start at the top. When you go up the stairs, the room you're right and started as a door to walk in. You'll go through we'll work our way all the way around the top floor, and then we'll the beginning of it will pull into the dance floor. So I just walked with my iPhone doing a first person shooter it patrons of the club, then I would turn the phone around to myself do a reload. And then so what John Wick is it's exactly the opposite. It's reverse first person shooter. It's always on Qian and pulling him and then wrapping in until it falls apart. And then we do it all over again. So it's a big pool into a rap. And that's that's technically the idea that theory of shooting. So you see Keanu Reeves is doing this. So for me once a week once I got there and we started working that out. I knew right away looking into monitors with Chad and Dave, I was like, Dude, we're on one. You guys are on one right now. As it's cutting edge, because in your gun. This is the thing. Now that I've done a John Wick I've done to you I did the just the club scene shoot out in the first one. And then I did all of the second one. And we upped Keanu was training camp for the second one because what Chad said to me said, how can we make to better than one I said, Well, you have to make Keanu better. So we put him in a really hard jujitsu camp Judo camp, took him to a three gun range and hadn't trained by a, you know, a 14 time world three gun champion, Taran Butler up here in Simi Valley, we just made him better, and then let the camera run longer. So you know, that was it was one of the highlights of my career because I'm a dear friend and fan of Keanu Reeves. I'm a huge fan of Chester house because we go back 30 years, one of the first people I met when I got out of the Army, he's been a huge a huge ally. You know, like, again, I didn't really have a plan when I got out of the army. I just didn't want to fuck things up and have to end up back in the army. But you know, Chad, you know, went to USC, he was always a he always knew that he I think he always knew he was going to be a director. And I really admire that I kind of watched where he walked in the snow and followed his footsteps. So you know, he was actually a producer on day shift. He was the one that I took it to the gotten greenlit. So that was, you know, that was one of the big, helping him out and working with our team at at 711 was, it's always a pleasure. There was a lot of hitters on that movie, bro. And the first and second one.

Alex Ferrari 32:53
So it's so funny because I remember Dave, I met Dave on in Sundance 2005 When he was promoting as a sledge. Yep. You remember that movie?

J.J. Perry 33:08
Yeah, we worked on it. We all do it.

Alex Ferrari 33:10
You weren't. So I was yeah, he was like he was doing like a stunt thing. And I met him and we hung out for a while. And this is before you know, a few years before he did John Wick. But as I was watching his career gromek Matt got blessed. I'm so glad he's, he's done good for, for himself over the years, man. It's, it's awesome. Now,

J.J. Perry 33:32
You know, if you look at if you look at stunt performers trajectory, like I've worked on 150 features, and over 300 episodes of TV, when you're working with Angley, gently Spike Lee, when you've worked with everyone, you have to learn something if you're paying attention. You know, like that's a different I guess the difference between a stunt guy and a stunt man, a stunt guy is just trying to make a bunch of money and get some toys. A stuntman is out there trying to make the movie better, and he's paying attention to every shot and trying to make every shot better. So you know, being being a stunt man, you know, and learning from some of the masters and learning just as much from second and first and second time directors on what not to do sometimes. Right part of my film school. And you know, Dave and Chad are alike. So the first one is the guy who directed from my group that directed smoking the bandit. Okay, I'll need him. How's that? Yeah. So he busted out in the 70s. He's one of the founders of my group sons Unlimited, you know, so he's one of the guys that busted out and you have a few stunt directors who in the US that have done some movies, you know, like Jackie Chan, for me is one of the all time greats because he, you know, he took it completely to the next level and there and he did stuff that we're still doing now. But Chad and Dave, for me, were instrumental in opening the door. And hopefully that door gets torn off the hinges because in the mid 2000s, in the early 2000s, there was this wave of visual effects directors. were directing movies. And the difference between us and them not to knock them is they don't have a human experience when you're making a visual effects previous you're on a computer and the computer will do exactly what you tell it to do. Right now. Fast forward to me training Keanu or US training. Tom Hardy and warrior Joel Edgerton, and warrior or Charlize here on on on atomic blonde OS them, we're training them, we're trying to do this, we're directing them, we're making them badass, don't best way to fake being a badass is just to make them a badass, we're directing them, and we have their trust. So when we're on set, and someone says, Why don't want to stand over here, I want to stand over there. I'm like, I can adjust quickly. But that Visual Effects Director was like, Well, wait a minute, no, my you know, they don't know how it aired, the computer does exactly what they tell them to do. When they get the human effect. When the human effect comes in. It became very difficult for them. And also it's, it's the interfacing as a stunt coordinator, you're constantly interfacing with all the other departments. So you have this dialogue and this repertoire with everyone on the movie and production meetings go into their offices. So I know how to communicate with everyone. I have a relationship with pretty much every crew anywhere because I've filmed in 36 countries. So it's a huge advantage for us is action directors becoming directors because we have this film, not film school experience. But filmmaking experience, which is entirely different than theory, its execution. It's like fighting the guy that hits the bag all day. You don't know what he's gonna do when he gets punched in the face. But the guy that spars all day, he's reactive, and proactive and hyperactive, you know? So that's, that's my take on on action directing. That's my take on it.

Alex Ferrari 36:43
Well, it's kind of like Mike Tyson has everyone's got a plan to get punched in the face,

J.J. Perry 36:46
Amen, my brother.

Alex Ferrari 36:49
You can be as badass as you want. But so you get that first punch in the face. All that stuff goes out the window really quickly.

J.J. Perry 36:56
That's right.

Alex Ferrari 36:57
So man, I got a chance to watch your new film day shift brother. First of all, congratulations. When I saw it, I was just like, I was expecting great action. I got great action. And then as I was seeing some of the techniques in the movie, I was watching it and I'm like, Oh, this is all old school style in camera stuff like Yes. And then when I saw the contortionist vampires, I was like, Oh, yes, he did. Like, because then you can't be yes, that it's so many you could do visual effects to do that. But man, when you get a contortionist out there doing crazy stuff, it just brings such reality. So tell everybody what the movie is about. And then we'll get into the how you made it.

J.J. Perry 37:37
So the movies about a man that got out of the army a lot like me, gets trying to keep his family together. And you know, LA's a tough place to live brother, like when I got out of the army, I was not prepared for rent and insurance and etc, etc. So he's, he's a guy that that has a job cleaning pools, and he augments his his income by killing vampires and selling their teeth in an underground in an underground market of vampire hunters that extract vampire teeth and kill them. And what really attracted me to this, you know, I've been reading a lot of scripts, and I was super stoked just being a stunt coordinator and secondary director, making a ton of dough flying all over the world, smashing people with all my friends, and then getting on a plane and going somewhere else and doing it all over again. It was a big risk for me to step out and direct a film. So I was going to be very picky and I read a bunch of scripts. Oh, JJ, you were in the army. You should do a movie about PTSD. cybers I was like, No, man, the world's dark right now. You know, right now with COVID and a double feature of monkey pox and a triple feature of war in Ukraine, the Worldstar you can turn on the news right now and find 1000 reasons to want to turn it off. I when I saw when I read the script, Dacia It spoke to me immediately because big drum a little china Lost Boys Evil Dead. Fright Night from the 80s Action, Comedy horror. I don't have a message. There's no I'm not trying to tell anyone to do anything or change anyone's mind. I just want them to enjoy having those three elements Action, Comedy and horror. I always will have the upper hand on the audience. I can wow them with action. I can make them laugh with comedy, and I can make them jump with horror. So using those three tiers, those three elements of those three layers of attack, it was like triangulating my crossfire on the audience to keep them right where I wanted them. The script spoke to me because there's an underground world of vampires and an underground world of hunters that chase them which is just like John Wick, but so that's what they were coming I got a lot of John Wick ish scripts s scripts. I was like I did that man and I don't want to bite on what Chad and Keanu are doing now. People will always say like John Wick, you know, but this in the movie I made is not John Wick with vampires. It's definitely not I definitely wanted to get as far away from that as I could because I'd already worked on that and I don't want to. I want to give the bout to my bros it at 711 Chad and Dave, they did a great job of that. I don't want to bite on that. There's enough people doing it right now. I got a script. I got it from Sean and Yvette Yates from impossible dream. They brought it to me. They've been big, you know, advocates and then the guy Tyler Tice, who wrote it, Jim, me and him worked on it for about a year. I do we just put big action teeth on it, you know, BT. And then I made it the characters is familiar to me as possible, like big John's character was like my platoon sergeant in the Army buds wife is like my wife, my wife's an attorney. She's the mike tyson of our viewers. You know, so and Bud has a nine year old daughter, I have a nine year old daughter, so I try to make it relatable to me. So when the Thespians would ask me, I would be able to speak intelligently. And I'll be honest, the thing that really worried me more than anything, was the comedy. Yeah, cuz that's something Yeah. But I think I'm funny, but I don't know if anyone else fucking thinks I'm funny.

Alex Ferrari 40:53
So, Gary, Jake, having hairy Jamie Foxx Jamie Foxx is not

J.J. Perry 40:59
Getting Day Shift was a win. Getting Jamie Foxx was winning the water. Oh, so talented. Oh my God. What a G bro and inhuman Dave Franco together.

Alex Ferrari 41:10
Oh great. Great chemistry!

J.J. Perry 41:13
I worked on a movie called spy several years ago with it Paul Feig directed. I did the action for him. And I did some second unit for him. And I watched the I was I first saw, I was hoping this would happen from right when Chad and Dave finished John Wick. I started going to you know, read I'd ask directors when I'd get hired and be like, Hey, can I sit through read through so I wanted to be more a part of that to watch the decisions being made. I really paid attention to Paul on how he directed the action and he had these things posted notes. And he would have it was almost like an accordion a post it notes with bolts that he had scribbled down so when he would just let the camera roll and say oh I tried this or I try this and then he would say okay now run with it. So having Jamie and Dave Franco in the comedy bro just let the cameras roll and let them just have at it so you know I I think you know Jamie for me was the biggest winner of all you know getting movies huge thank you Netflix Thank you Chester house from Greenland. Thank you impossible dream for bring it to me thank you Tom for writing in Jamie Foxx I will forever owe a debt of gratitude and all we always be a good program because that was him showing up to do my movie was such a massive thing for me.

Alex Ferrari 42:28
Now with you know, a lot of second unit directors don't get the shot because a lot of them stay a second unit directors for their career. And like you said, I can have fun I can go out I'm working on big budgets I'm having this fun for fun. So when I saw that, you know when I went in and started to research it I was like oh this is his first shot like this is this is not a normal scenario because a lot of times actually second unit directors no action, but they have no idea how to deal with actors like on a on a watch McCall on like a dialogue state or how to carry character arcs and things like that. It's a little tougher to do that. But when I saw what you does, like man, I'm interested to see how he does and I was like man, he held it together man like the whole story was well put together. There's some beautiful easter eggs for someone of my my vintage to to grab on to some some loss boy lines. Well give it away. I was like, I was like nice. So some some nice little easter eggs along the way. But it was just it was just it was just well done. It was really well done. And I was telling you earlier before we get started with the color of it looks great that the the you could feel how hot it is. During you could feel like it Valley. And then that since I'm from the valley. I was just I was just like, I was from the valley. I was just like it up. Oh, they're deep in the valley over there. There. That's not Burbank. Nope, that's so it was fun. Oh, it's always fun for me when they shoot something in LA. They're like, yep, been there. Yep. I know where that is. Yeah.

J.J. Perry 44:00
So you know, Brother, listen, when I got out of the Army, it kind of was like that I moved to the valley first I lived in the back of a taekwondo school for a while and when I got made my first bit of money, I moved to the valley and you have to that's the trajectory I think you need to move to the valley to move down by the airport when you first get here and you don't have any money. Then you make your way over the hill which will be night shift part two will be in Hollywood or you know we'll be in Hollywood maybe next time. But that was the trajectory and one of the things that I remember about the valley when I first got there was being from Texas. It's hot and humid but the colors in the valley that orange and listing total disclosure, I am completely colorblind, the worst colorblind you can be but that orange for me really resonates in the opening of diehard when the plane lands, the orange sun, that setting when the plane lands. That's what I showed Toby Oliver, when I said I need your help with this because I want the interiors to feel cold like vampires would be there you can almost feel the breath. But when you're outside it should be hot and sticky and light Like the valley, you know what you hear? That's the water the water watering things are the you're gonna disturb the cicadas, you know you all of that, that I wanted to get bring that to the movie. So yeah, that was part of it for me and Toby Oliver is a gem. You know, when we shot the movie in 42 days with no second unit, which is a very short shoot for a movie of that size. And we didn't have a lot of time we shot 31 Days in Atlanta and 11 days in LA. So I was scared all my interiors in Atlanta and a few exteriors. So what I did in LA what all of my establishing shots of LA, I would do these big drone, handoffs, big drone shot showing the valley, then we'd have certain operator catch the drone, we hit a button, the drone would fly off, and then we follow our actors into wherever they were going. So I really close the valley because I wanted to, and I think the valley is hot, sweaty, sexy, cool, exotic, trippy, you know, you can smell the different flavors of food in the air, you can hear seven different languages being spoken, it was this mystical place when I moved there being from South Texas, you know, like the valley, you know, like what a trip. So that was part of it for me is to show how exotic the valley was. So there you go.

Alex Ferrari 46:13
So, you know, as a director, you know, and I'm sure you've had this happen on other projects as well. There's always that one day that the whole worlds come crashing down around you. You like oh my god, we're not going to make it. We're not going to make the day we're not going to make the shot. But something's going to happen. And it's generally every day we have every every day, there's a moment of that. But generally, on this project, was there one day that stands out that you're just like, I feel like security's gonna come and take me away.

J.J. Perry 46:39
No, no, but there's a moment I'll tell you. It's funny. So I was never afraid of the action at all ever. And my first ad His name is Bill Clark, I call him Wild Bill. He's Quentin Tarantino is first lady's dear friend, the scene where the vampires come to get. But in his wife, it's the very end of the movie when they they leave South and they take his wife and daughter. Bill comes to me the night before when we were wrapping up, he goes, you know, you got seven and a half pages of dialogue tomorrow. And I was a young girl. And I didn't know what that meant. You know, a lot of time he goes, Hey, Bubba, you got seven and a half pages of dialogue tomorrow. And I was like, Cool, great. He goes, he just kind of pulled me you know, he's like, Hey, so let's talk about this. So it didn't really dawn on me till about four o'clock in the afternoon, when I was better pay better attention to that. But you know, at the end of the day, we ended up getting that right, we had we had, you know, it's because the cast was so great. And everyone, no one went back to their trailers. Everybody hung out on set, we're playing music between setups, you know, everybody was having a good time, I wanted to keep the set light, like I keep my second unit light key there Metallica or Stevie Ray Vaughn, between setups or you know, dealer's choice to get a new DJ. And we had Jamie with his boombox. And we had, you know, taco truck here and there and coffee trucks. So it ended up working out all right. And it was my ignorance that saved me, because I wasn't afraid you don't you're not afraid of what you don't know until you know it right? Of course. And then it kind of worked out. And bill at the end of that day when Whoa, you said that was almost like having a baby. And I was like, Well, I can't speak on that yet. But I can tell you now I know what seven and a half pages mean. So

Alex Ferrari 48:18
Seven and a half pages is a lot of dialogue, man. I mean, unless you're doing unless you're doing master shot theater, then it's cool. You can knock that out in 30 minutes. But if you're doing what, you know, a normal setup, man, that's a lot of dials.

J.J. Perry 48:30
There were nine people in the room too. So there's a lot of coverage, you knows a lot of coverage. And also you had to not, we had to be careful not to shoot the mirror because the vampires are invisible in the mirrors. And I didn't have a huge visual effects budget on the movie. So I had to be very conscious of everything I was doing.

Alex Ferrari 48:45
Right? No, exactly. And how many cameras did you shoot with?

J.J. Perry 48:49
Generally, when we were doing all of it, when we were doing all the dialogue, always three cameras, I always run three cameras. And then when we were doing the car chase, I was running seven cameras, because we didn't I mean, it wasn't like I said it wasn't we didn't have a lot of time. And it wasn't a fast and furious budget or you know, a gray man budget. But it was it wasn't a little budget either. They were very generous with me. So I just because of second unit, I know how to budget my time really, really well. When it comes to action. I just know this is gonna work. This is gonna work. I gotta do this. Okay, so I can make a change here. We can not cut here and go here. I know how to I know how to run the table. I know how to play shoot that I knew how to clean the table to run that eight ball. But um,

Alex Ferrari 49:26
So what was the biggest challenge you had on this project? Since I mean, since it's your first full feature? You've done tons a second. What was the biggest

J.J. Perry 49:34
Hardest part for me was getting the opportunity to do it, bro. You know, to be honest, I was gonna have to do that, by the way. Well, you know, like when John and Yvette brought it to me, and we worked on it for a year I was doing Fast and Furious eight in London. Chad was in London with Keanu promoting John Wick three. Now I had shot the first sequence with the old lady as a stump is and I've done a vampire genogram different species and I don't use sizzle reels and a lookbook. So we're out partying at the Gaucho room with Keanu and Chad celebrating the release of their movie. John Wick three wasn't hanging out with him. In about four in the morning, Chad leans over and he goes, Hey, man, I'm probably going to get some sort of post first look, deal. Do you have anything? And I was like, funny you should mention that. I slid it you know, I didn't slide it across the table. But I texted I emailed it to him. And I knew he was flying back to LA the next day. And at 6am when he was in the car on the way to the Heathrow. I texted him, I said, Hey, give that thing a look while you're on the plane. He landed in LA and he by the time he landed, he calls me he's going to make this move. And literally, two weeks later, we're in meetings to make this movie and it was happening. So COVID Hit which put it on a hold. So the trajectory was shattered. But Yeates as Sean Reddick and Yvette Yates from posturing, give me the script. Get behind me. Tyler Tyson, I work on it for about a year together. Chance to house he sees it gets excited about it walks it in Netflix, or a mom or Taylor Z. Get excited about it about the package of Chad and this movie and myself. Jamie Foxx comes on board and it turns into like a holy shit, it's going to be massive. And here we are. It's all in the past. Now it's all in all behind us. So that's kind of the way it happened. And it happened really fast. We shot it really fast. I had the one of the best times I've ever had prepping and shooting the movie, the only place that I was not aware of was post production. Because 32 years of prepping movies and shooting movies. You never like I've been in the editing room a couple of times with directors cutting together because I always when I shoot second unit, I cut while I'm shooting and I deliver it. So I shoot a stump is for proofing proof of concept. Then when I'm shooting what I shoot, I shoot and cut the footage off of the TTI key and hand it to them and say proof of execution. You don't have to cut it this way you cut it any way you want to. But this was my version of your vision. And now it's locked in now it's done. If you want to give it to your editors, as a roadmap, do whatever you like, but here it is. So all that being said, prepping the movie shooting, it was such a PCK going into post production, I'd already cut all of the action while we were shooting. So theoretically, a third of the movie was cut already when we get to posts. So watching the whole process of post I learned so much in post about what I don't need to do. And I'll tell you like all those shots of the techno crane passing over the pool that follows the feet up and close to the door and a lens flare hidden from the sun. That 45 second shot. My cinematic my Kurosawa shots all gone dog. Oh, yep. So I learned so much about what I don't need to do that I would tell you confidently as a 54 year old budding filmmaker, that my sophomore effort will be infinitely better than my freshman efforts.

Alex Ferrari 53:03
Wow, that's such a man. It's so true. Because even look so it's so funny. They say that man because you've been in the biz man for you know, decades. At this point, you've shot so much work at the highest levels. And yet you fell into the same trap that first time directors fall into like, let's make this one shot here. And then we'll do the Goodfellas shot through the through the kitchen and all that stuff. And I remember Kurosawa, that Kubrick thing will do that. And it's and you you fall into that and you realize, when you get in the cutting room, like I said, it just stops the entire movie, you can't do that.

J.J. Perry 53:36
It went like this. So the action was cut. We watched the movie, for the first time, probably three, two and a half or three weeks in, we just put all the reels together. And the movie came in at two hours and 43 minutes. So I looked at it and I was like, Wow, alright, cool. So I want to listen, I never wanted anyone I was very conscious of this, because I'm always watching. I made this movie for our generation Gen X, but I also made it for the millennials and the Gen X Gen Y and Gen Z hence, but in Seth, counterparts that difference and I'll get into that in a minute remind me to talk to you about why that was inspired from but that was easy. It was easy for me because I didn't want my movie to feel long. I wanted it to be easy to watch because you listen I'm not gonna say any I'm not going to call any movies out. But there's a lot of movies now that I watch that are hard, like I love them but they get become like I'm sitting now I'm aware that they're fat, making dayshift for not for the small screen for being seven or 10 feet away from your big screen TV from your sofa. You're sitting four feet high. Looking at your screen. That's in my mind. That was the movie I was making. I was not shooting it for a theater because it was you know, Netflix is a small screen and but it's big screen ambitions on the small screen. So in saying that it was very easy for me. Once I cut that first part of my finger off, I let that long shot Go, it became easy for me to see it is just it 54 In all those years of experience comes in wisdom. Like, I know I have to, I have to sift some of this out. So I let it go quickly. You know, like, Listen, I'll be honest with you. It's not. It's not. It's not Shakespeare. And if you weren't Shakespeare, they wouldn't be hiring me, bro. They wouldn't hire a caveman like me. It has to be fast and fun. And something has to happen. And I don't want anyone to feel like okay, I'm waiting now and what's going on? I don't want them looking at their Instagram. So that was kind of the the full film filmmaking experience that I wanted to create is something that was scary, acne funny, and easy to watch.

Alex Ferrari 55:43
And it's exactly like that's not a movie that can be two hours and 45 minutes like that story. It's not that story. So it's just not but it's it needs to be fast and tight and quick, and you'd fun. And that's the kind of thing you know, you're not making Braveheart. You know, which is what you need three hours to tell that story. And it's it okay to do that. And honestly, I don't know if Braveheart gets made today. And that's no,

J.J. Perry 56:06
I'm a huge I used to double Mel Gibson strangely, and I'm a huge fan. I think he's one of the best filmmakers. Ah, alright, you know, like, listen, I used to be a stone Golem. Huge fan, bro.

Alex Ferrari 56:19
Apocalypto. Oh, god, it's brilliant film.

J.J. Perry 56:23
The 250 millimeter lens on my set is called the Mel Gibson because he always has a camera on a 250. And he always he told me goes, Hey, kid, you want to see what's going on in there? Put the 250 and reach in there and get them you can see what they're thinking, bro. So I always use that 250 But I couldn't get the Mel Gibson out guys when I was thinking that moment, you know, so? Yes, you're right. It's not and they probably will make a Braveheart but kudos to Mel for making it in.

Alex Ferrari 56:50
Yeah, when when they could. And you told me to ask you about the generational thing.

J.J. Perry 56:54
So yes, I'm on the road as a stunt coordinator, sacking director with all of these Apex stunt performers and stunt coordinators that work with me for the last we've done we've been on the road with the same guys for about eight or nine years at 711 stunts unlimited I hire within my team, Justin you, Troy Robinson, Mike Leia, my bros, but they're, except for Troy. Those other guys and females and girls that are in my group are all millennials and Gen X and Jim why like parkour champions world kung fu champion, car drifting champion trip motorcycle champion, but they're all kids. And I love them. But I don't know what the fuck they're talking about half the time, dude. And we all love each other and laugh at each other. But it's, it's that awkward thing that I wanted that I experienced on the road with my teammates that I love. And we spent time together and we hang out and watch him in May and go to the movies and do functions and stuff together and risk our lives together and make a bunch of dough together. But when I listen to them talk about things I'm like, fuck are they talking about? That's exactly what I wanted to portray that dynamic between blood and Seth in my movie. Like there's the generation that gets their knowledge from this. Right? They get their phone and it's Google. You and me. I'm 54 and we're probably eugenics.

Alex Ferrari 58:11
I'm not I'm not too far away from you, sir.

J.J. Perry 58:13
So you know, we were kids. If you wanted to learn something, you have to go there and learn it

Alex Ferrari 58:17
Until you library library photocopy when

J.J. Perry 58:21
I joined the Army, because I was a junior national taekwondo champion, so I could go boot get stationed in Korea, so I could fight the best in the world. So I committed four years of my life to the army just for taekwondo just so I could go there and fight and train. So I know the way the gym smells at chumps. Shil I know the way the gym smells in Thailand and lupini stadium, I know the way that Buddha con, the floor feels when you walk on it. Kids that learn on it on this, they don't know that they're getting the knowledge without actually earning it, which comes without the wisdom of learning. No, not knocking my younger brothers and sisters because I have a huge admiration for them. And we can learn a lot from them as well. But that for me the practical application versus the quicker knowledge is another thing that I wanted to portray in my movie.

Alex Ferrari 59:10
And if I if I can get up on my old man soapbox. The difference is that our generation is I call us the bridge generation. Because we were at a time when we understood pre internet, pre technology. I don't know about you. But I remember a time when there was no remotes. I was I was the remote from my grandfather. He's like get up and change the channel. And you would go like that stuff. I showed my daughters of rotary phone the other day and their minds just exploded. They just couldn't understand. And I go Yeah, and on. On the on the seventh number. If you mess it up, you got to start over. All these history, but so we know that part of of technology and history and society. But then we also were around when the internet was born. That's right. So, so we have feet and both both generous as opposed to like my daughters. They don't know anything different. You know, and the millennials they don't know a world without this kind of stuff. So it's a different different way of looking at

J.J. Perry 1:00:14
things the internet crashes we would go back to the Thomas guide in a hot minute, but they wouldn't maybe not no deal with that in coins for the for the phones, you remember. I remember the pager when I was a kid, a pager Well, church and the pastor said, Hey, you better get that it might be God page. And he told him, my mom, my grandma. Good Doctor, he must mean doctor.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:38
When is that? So when is Day Shift coming out man?

J.J. Perry 1:00:41
August 12. It drops we are. I'm super excited like all my other director friends that do this is the worst time for you because you don't know. And I was like, Pablo, for me not knowing is the bliss of not knowing. For me, it's awesome. Because I feel like I did everything I could to make it as good as I can. I had a great time doing it. I had a great partner and my cast and my shooting crew and my production producers and Netflix. I'm just super stoked to get it out there and let it let the ship sail and let's see how far it goes.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:09
And the thing I also love about what you're doing, man is like you just made your first feature, but you're still you're still hustling on an out there as a second unit and you're still working. You don't stop man, I saw your IMDB and you're like Nah, man. I'm keep. You're not like I'm a director now I only direct No, no, no, no.

J.J. Perry 1:01:24
I'm working as a stunt man next week, too. So this is how it goes for me brother. Just so you know, like, I learned all my lessons in life. I didn't go to college, I learned my lessons in life in the dojo in in the army. And my master said something to me when I was 11 years old. He said if you want to be a fighter, you have to go fight. Fighting is a perishable skill. Directing in my opinion, for me is a perishable skill. If you're not out there doing it all the time, you know, it's you're not reactive, or proactive, you become reactive, you got to be proactive, you got to be in front of the wave all the time. So I'm constantly just I just got back from doing a movie for Warner Brothers called Blue Beetle, did murder mystery to for Netflix getting ready to do back in action for Netflix. Like I'm just I want to keep myself directing action. And hopefully, my movie goes well, and they give they give this old cowboy another shot at the title baby. I'm ready. Ring the bell.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:13
Now, bro, I'm gonna ask you a few questions. I asked all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

J.J. Perry 1:02:21
Believe in yourself and be as good as you can be be the best version of yourself. Because when opportunity comes, you might not get another shot at it. It comes when it comes in, you can make your fate in certain ways. But you think like for my example, it took me 32 years to get a directing job. You know, so I was when my moment came, I was absolutely ready. I had a script that I loved and was passionate about. I knew what that set was going to smell like before I got there. And this is coming from a dyslexic colorblind guy that never went to college, you know. And so if you get the opportunity, you have to make the most of that opportunity. And don't take anything for granted and learn as much as you can about all the other departments.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:03
What did you What did you learn from your biggest failure?

J.J. Perry 1:03:08
Yeah, I've taken a bath a few times. You know, it's tough love, especially when you get out of the army. The army prepares you for certain things, but it doesn't necessarily prepare you for what to do when you get out always, especially in in the late 80s, early 90s. I got out in 1990. So it was hard for me to because I didn't know many people I didn't know anyone in LA except for one or two people. Like I slept on the floor of a karate school for a long time. You know, it was very, like, there was no room for error. Like if I didn't make money, I was definitely going to be back in the army. So, you know, but la strangely was, you know, a place at the time and even now I'm you know, I love this place. It's a trip, you know, but the weather in the place I fell in love with it the first time I saw it, you know, back in 1988 while I was driving to Fort Ord, you know, like when I drove through LA so that's probably the biggest lessons came from you know, like just learning how to apply the work ethic that I learned in the military and for martial arts in how to monetize that and make make it make me able to survive in the real world.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:06
Three of your favorite films of all time. Oh, whatever comes to mind, brother, but it won't be on your tombstone.

J.J. Perry 1:04:15
When police story and armor of God are tied is action grace you have to I have to mention Enter the Dragon Armor of God and police story so the Terminator and Rocky the first rock in the first Terminator because the first Terminator for me was the story was like I remember I remember sitting in the theater. It was in I was in downtown Houston. Yes probably stone with my buddies and we were like remember the first hang on I remember the first time when you saw Star Wars and when they went to hyperspeed remember that first love Yeah, sure, man. Yeah, yeah, that's it. So that was kind of Terminator for me and Rocky was such an inspiration as well, you know? So I would say I it's hard for me to say three but I would go please story. armor of God rocky Terminator. And yeah, any one of those three for me with those in you like for entertainment like we did it doesn't have action. But strangely, Forrest Gump was such a feel good movie.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:17
Movie. Yeah. Awesome. Now, one last question, man, because you you mentioned Terminator, you've gotten a chance to work with Jim.

J.J. Perry 1:05:25
I have him as well. I go to the gun range with him as well. Sometimes he she's so.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:32
So what is it like walking on the set of a Jim Cameron movie for the first time. And you're like, Dude, that's terminate, like, like, you have to Geek do geek out every once in a while. I mean, at this point, you've worked with so many. But that first time,

J.J. Perry 1:05:46
The first time I walked on the set prep, we did prep work on the first Avatar and while we when I went in at lunch, they were using this new that new technology where it was real time, Genesis, Garrett Warren, my friend was the stunt coordinator, Peter Jackson, and Steven Spielberg, were there with Jim. So it was like this triple geek out moment where, like, we you know, like, so Garrett walked in front of them. And I snapped a picture, just they were eating, and he didn't want to bother him. But he walked in front of them and stopped. And I clicked a picture for you know, you know, when Jim James Cameron is coming to work, you can hear the helicopter landing. That's when he shows up for work. That's how he comes to work from his place. He's a G Man, like, for me, that generation of filmmakers. Yeah, there's nothing to make the movies in camera, you know, and then went with the wave to technology, even Angley is another example that I've done a bunch with Angley. He's another one that's, you know, practical filmmaker that went all the way into checklist. All of those guys are epic. And if we've seen any fathers filmmakers, because we stood on the shoulders of giants like those men.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:57
Absolutely. No question. J.J man, it has been an absolute pleasure and honor talking to you and geeking out with you, brother. It is I hope, I hope somebody learns a little bit from our conversation here and there's a lot of gems in this woman, but congratulations on your success and your career on your new movie. And I hope man, I hope they give you the keys again, brother. I really look forward to see what else you do, man.

J.J. Perry 1:07:18
Thank you, brother. I appreciate you.

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IFH 603: How Indie Film Super Troopers Made Millions with Jay Chandrasekhar

Today on the show we have director, writer, comedian, and actor Jay Chandrasekhar has contributed to and appeared in a wide variety of critically acclaimed television programs and films throughout his career.

Chandrasekhar assembled the sketch comedy troupe Broken Lizard, which includes Kevin Heffernan, Steve Lemme, Paul Soter, and Erik Stolhanske. Together they performed comedy across the nation until they set their sights on producing television and feature films.

Under his Broken Lizard banner, Jay directed and co-wrote Fox Searchlight Picture’s comedy cult classics Super Troopers, Super Troopers 2, Club Dread, and Warner Bros’ Beerfest. He also directed the Broken Lizard comedy special, Broken Lizard Stands Up.

Super Troopers hit theaters in February 2002 and went on to gross $23 million with glowing audience reviews (and $80 million on home video.)

Jay continued on to direct The Dukes of Hazard, direct and star in Millennium Entertainment’s The Babymakers, and appear in DreamWorks’ comedy hit, I Love You, Man. Recently, Chandrasekhar published his book, Mustache Shenanigans: Making Super Troopers and Other Adventures in Comedy that gives a behind the scenes look at the making of Super Troopers.

In addition to his feature film work, Chandrasekhar has directed various TV shows, including several episodes of the Emmy Award winning series Arrested Development, Community, Chuck, The Grinder, Up All Night, Happy Endings, New Girl, and Psych. More recently, Jay has also directed episodes of Fresh Off the Boat, The Goldbergs, Speechless, and Schooled.

His new film is Easter Sunday.

Stand-up comedy sensation Jo Koy (Jo Koy: In His Elements, Jo Koy: Comin’ in Hot) stars as a man returning home for an Easter celebration with his riotous, bickering, eating, drinking, laughing, loving family, in this love letter to his Filipino-American community. Easter Sunday features an all-star comedic cast that includes Jimmy O. Yang (Silicon Valley series), Tia Carrere (True Lies, Wayne’s World films), Brandon Wardell (Curb Your Enthusiasm series), Tony nominee Eva Noblezada (Broadway’s Hadestown), Lydia Gaston (Broadway’s The King and I), Asif Ali (WandaVision), Rodney To (Parks and Recreation series), Eugene Cordero (The Good Place series), Jay Chandrasekhar (I Love You, Man), Tiffany Haddish (Girls Trip) and Lou Diamond Phillips (Courage Under Fire).  

Easter Sunday, from DreamWorks Pictures, is directed by Jay Chandrasekhar (Super Troopers, The Dukes of Hazzard), from a script by Ken Cheng (series Wilfred, Betas). The film is produced by Rideback’s Dan Lin (The Lego Movie franchise, It franchise) and Jonathan Eirich (Aladdin, The Two Popes), and is executive produced by Jo Koy, Jessica Gao, Jimmy O. Yang, Ken Cheng, Joe Meloche, Nick Reynolds and Seth William Meier. The film will be distributed by Universal Pictures domestically. Amblin Partners and Universal will share international distribution rights.

Jay also just launched a new app designed to give the power of reviews back to the people. It’s call Vouch Vault.

“When my film, Super Troopers, showed at Sundance, it played to big laughing crowds. But when it was released to the public, the reviews were only so-so. On Rotten Tomatoes, Super Troopers, got a 38%-fresh aggregate score from less than a hundred reviewers. With the public, though, the film garnered a 90% fresh rating from more than 250,000 non-reviewers. This 38% reviewer-number stuck in my craw. I remember thinking, “Who are these reviewers, these strangers with outsized power, and why are we listening to them? Seriously. When’s the last time you walked up to a stranger and said, “Hey, what movie should I see?”

Our goal with Vouch Vault is to take recommendation power from anonymous strangers and give it to the people whose tastes you know and trust.”

You can download the new app here: Vouch Vault.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Jay Chandrasekhar 0:00
As the human mind works at a much faster rate than you think it does, and so you can pull things out and tighten it tighten and tighten. And the tighter you get. Often the closer to the rhythm you even imagined was and you're trying to lock into a rhythm with the audience.

Alex Ferrari 0:15
This episode is brought to you by the best selling book Rise of the Filmtrepreneur how to turn your independent film into a money making business. Learn more at filmbizbook.com. I'd like to welcome to the show Jay Chandrasekhar. How're you doing Jay?

Jay Chandrasekhar 0:31
I'm doing great. How are you?

Alex Ferrari 0:33
I'm doing great, man. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Man. I've been a fan of yours, brother since since I can't even tell you when spac obviously some Super Troopers came out. I pissed myself and continue to piss myself every single time I watch it. So I appreciate you guys making that.

Jay Chandrasekhar 0:49
Maximum reaction we are always hoping for.

Alex Ferrari 0:54
So I wanted you on the show, man because, you know, Super Troopers and the sequel and many of the other films you've made. I mean, specifically Super Troopers was kind of like this. In the you know, it's kind of like the beginning. Again, if you remember the 90s it was like every week there was a new El Mariachi or brothers mall in or clerks, brothers broken losers was that for the early 2000s is one of those films that kind of just came out of nowhere from you know, group of filmmakers who really nobody knew and exploded on the scene. So before we get into that, how did you get started? Why did you want to get started in this insanity? That is the film industry?

Jay Chandrasekhar 1:29
Well, I was an actor and in high school and college. Almost not an actor I've my sister was, I was kinda like, little lost in high school my freshman year. And my sister was like, why don't you just get in the play? It's super fun. You make a lot of friends. And I'm like a play. I don't know, like, what am I going to do? Like act? And she goes, be like an extra be in the chorus or something. I'm like, Alright, so I auditioned for a play to get in the chorus. I guess. I didn't make it. And I'm like, I was like, wow, I didn't make it. And so the next time they put up a play auditioned again, and I got into the head, a couple lines. And it was really, it was rejection that made me dive back in the second time. I'm like, How dare you? And once I started doing it, I thought, Okay, this is incredible. This is really fun. I was so and I became like, kind of that one of the main guys in the in the theater group in high school. And then in college, I started the lead in place. And then I looked at the television and movie screens. It was in the late 80s. And I was like, hey, there are no Indians on there. I mean, the Ben Kingsley was the one Indian and and they they weren't going to make it Gandhi too. Right? So I was like, well, when they wanted Indians, they put you know, white guys in brown face and these guys did this hilarious accents. I thought like Fisher Stevens and

Alex Ferrari 3:01
Wow, yeah, yeah, that did that does that age well at all? It's a short circuit.

Jay Chandrasekhar 3:05
It's funny, short circuit. My dad told me he goes he goes you have to see short circuit. And I said why? Because they didn't Indian in it. And I'm like, that's not a real Indian. He goes, where does this closest we'll get.

Alex Ferrari 3:19
Look, I'm Cuban and Scarface. I mean, so there you go.

Jay Chandrasekhar 3:25
That's such a good foot. Peter Sellars played a good Indian in the party. I thought I thought he did a nice job. But, you know, like, Indians were showing up but they were the guys who are selling Brad Pitt the pack of cigarettes before he went over and hooked up with cheddar friends or whoever, right? Oh, it'd be the guy would have picked up whichever is. So I decided in college. I started a comedy groups. You know, because I was. I don't know, I don't know how much of this you want. But anyway, I was in college as a junior and I decided I'm going to try to make it and show business. And I said the way I'm going to do it is I can make my friends laugh, no problems. But can I make strangers laugh? And so I moved to Chicago, which is where I'm from. And I spent the summer in Chicago and then I took a semester off college and I went to college in Chicago got credits there, and I immersed myself in the improv comedy world. And I got involved in this thing called the Improv Olympic. And Chris Farley was the top guy at the time and Dave keckler. And they would go see their shows or improv shows, and they were incredible. Like, just like it was like magic. It was he couldn't believe how funny he was. And then I would go do my improv shows with my group, which was like eight beginners, and we would get almost no laughs I mean, I don't know if we got any laughs And I thought, well, wow, that's really failing the test of this. Can I make strangers laugh? So I decided I'd better go cross down and write some stand up. And so I went down an open mic and I did five minutes of stand up and I got laughs and I was like, okay, okay, I passed that test, I'm going to do it. And so I got back to Colgate. And there was an opportunity to start a comedy group. It was basically like, Hey, you want to direct a 1x? And I said, instead, I'll start a comedy group. And so I went around and getting look Magnificent Seven, I gathered all the funniest people I knew. And I put them in a room and I said, Here's, hey, we do improv. And I'm like, now I'm like this worst improv improviser in Chicago, teaching seven other people how to improvise. And it just didn't go anywhere. First of all, we had no the audience. So we were like, Is that funny? I don't know. Is that funny? I don't know. And then we're like, you know what, we're all history majors and English majors. This is right sketch. That's you Saturday live, we can do that. And so we started writing sketches. And one of the guys who I hired was from Los Angeles freshman, and he goes, I really pretty good with this camera. It's like, okay, well, like Santa Claus. We should share video. So we started shooting short videos, and we put on a show and the first night about 30 people showed up. And but it was a good show, I thought and the next night, it was 400. And you couldn't get enough seats it. And the next night was sold out in the next night was sold out. We're like, oh my god, this thing is really caught on. And so we did another show them, we moved to New York, and we reformed his broken lizard. And that was 1990. And I'm watching what was happening in the film business. And I'm like, so all these, like, just Kevin Smith, who's any person what's going on with that guy, Rick Linklater. And I'm like, you know, maybe the only way I'm gonna get because still, there are no Indians on screen. And I'm like, maybe the only way I can get into a movie would be if I wrote it myself. So we wrote a movie together. And then I'm like, you know, we had an experience of Comedy Central with another director who directed us. And I'm like, it didn't really feel right. until like, maybe I should learn how to direct. So that, and I've been directing all these little short films for broken lizard. So I kind of had a leg up. And so we raised money, and we made a half an hour film, and then we raised more money, and we made puddle cruiser, which got into Sundance. And it was just us, me and my friends in the movie. And that group, obviously, then went on to make Super Troopers. And you know,

Alex Ferrari 7:13
And the rest, as they say, is history. It's funny that you say like, you were looking at the 90s. And for people who listen to this show that many of them are younger, who does understand what the 90s and independent film was, it was the first time you really saw the technology is so cheap, and the opportunity for the festivals and Sundance and that Sundance decade, to blow up, you know, filmmakers, there was just a window of about 10 years really, that you could do that that gave you the inspiration to go. I think I could do this. Because if, if, if Kevin Smith made clerks for $27,000, and it's funny as hell, good writing and everything. Wow, what can I do that I'm funny? Similar, same idea?

Jay Chandrasekhar 7:51
That's exactly right. It's very much like if that guy can do it. I mean, it was very much like that. And, and it was, No, the truth is the, you know, the landscape was littered with the bones of filmmakers who didn't make it.

Alex Ferrari 8:06
Oh, and still are, sir.

Jay Chandrasekhar 8:10
But, but we, you know, I've always been some, like, like cocky to the point of stupid,

Alex Ferrari 8:20
Which has to be you have to be

Jay Chandrasekhar 8:23
Attempt to write and direct your own film and shove yourself into Milan. And help.

Alex Ferrari 8:30
Which, which, which. So you made your short film, which was Super Troopers. It was called Super Troopers Three?

Jay Chandrasekhar 8:35
No, no, the first No, the first fish called the tinfoil monkey agenda.

Alex Ferrari 8:41
Oh, fantastic. Name. Fantastic. Fantastic.

Jay Chandrasekhar 8:46
The second the first feature film was called puddle cruiser right. took place at Colgate. And then the the film after that was Super Troopers. One I'm writing Super Troopers three right now,

Alex Ferrari 8:57
When I was so so puddle cruiser. So that was kind of like your clerks. That was the that was your that was going to be that first film that was going to like, and you got to Sundance, which is a huge.

Jay Chandrasekhar 9:09
And Harvey Weinstein saw it and was, you know, tested it and it tested it tested well, but he didn't end up buying it. And he's like, I want to make it into a TV show. Because he just had a deal with ABC. So he's like, you gotta make it a TV show. And then we ended up making it into a TV show with another company and another guy but but we came like inches from being purchased by Miramax just didn't. He wasn't in the room at the right time.

Alex Ferrari 9:44
Fair enough. Fair enough. Now on when you made panel cruisers, I mean, that's the first time you made a narrative feature face you know, as a director, what was the biggest lesson you learned on the directing side making that first feature?

Jay Chandrasekhar 9:55
Well, you know, the thing about A comedy is it's all about rhythm and timing. And if you watch those, you know, I keep mentioning canceled people. But if you'd like to Woody Allen's great work, he'll have three minute takes where the actors are creating his comedic rhythm. And I'm sure he's telling it faster, faster, faster, faster. And he had his he has it taken one of his phones or two people are arguing in the living room, they walk into the kitchen, the camera just points the kitchen while they keep arguing that they walked back after about a minute of arguing in the kitchen. And the reason it works is because the rhythm, right. And so I always had a sense. I mean, I don't know, it may be if you're a comic, you know that it's all about really. And I was like, I think this movie is going to work based on the rhythm we've written into the script. And I don't know. And so we would shoot these scenes. And I'm like, Yeah, that's feels right. This sounds right, right. And then we cut it all together. I'm like, yeah, yeah, there it is. But But what we learned most is that there's so much extra stuff, and space that you need to eat, because the human mind works at a much faster rate than you think it does. And so you can pull things out and tighten it tighten and tighten. And the tighter you get, often the closer to the rhythm you even imagined was and you're trying to lock into a rhythm with the audience. And we were able to do that. So you know, what it taught me is that we couldn't we can do it. Making

Alex Ferrari 11:30
Which is, which is a very important thing, which gave you the confidence to make Super Troopers, which was a slightly larger budget.

Jay Chandrasekhar 11:38
It was 1.1 million.

Alex Ferrari 11:40
How did you get that? How did you get that movie? Money?

Jay Chandrasekhar 11:42
Well, we just asked everybody in Hollywood, and they all said no. And we were like, no, no, we're the pokers. Guys. They're like, yeah, where Joe was sold to Harvey Weinstein, but

Alex Ferrari 11:53
Almost

Jay Chandrasekhar 11:58
You know, we, we, we went to so many different people. And they were like, so let me get the stripe. You guys are the cops. Like, nobody knows who you are. You know, one guy is like, I'll give you the money. But we put Ben Affleck and as the role of authority. I'm friends with them. They'll do it. And I'm like, no, no, I'll play that part. Because good luck with that. And then we and we would we went from place to you know, we were repped at CAA at the time. And they introduced us to all their finance ears. And they interested in this and we got close again, we'd like the we were friends with the Zucker brothers so that they introduced us to the Farrelly brothers and the Farrelly brothers tried to get a made of Fox and they were like we just the studio won't. Because you guys, they just won't do it. And we went with Bob Simons, who was producing a lot of Adam Sandler films and he goes, I'm doing it. We're doing it for 5 million. I'm like, great. And then Bob couldn't get paid the amount he wanted to get paid in the budget. And so he's like, sorry, guys, I can't do it. And I'm like, Oh, okay so then.

Alex Ferrari 13:05
God just all this back and forth. I love people hearing and hearing the stories because it's like, oh, you know, one day you get into Sundance next day, you make broken lizards in the money just comes rolling in. Like, that's not the way it works.

Jay Chandrasekhar 13:18
So then we ended up a friend of ours was George Clooney as assistant. We moved to LA right. And we're like, we were hanging out with her. We're partying with her. We're you know, doing ecstasy. I don't know. Anyway, whatever we're having, but and we were sleeping at George Clooney his house because she was he was off making the peacemaker, I think, and we were, she was alone. And she's like, I can't sleep in this house alone. There are all these paparazzi in the woods. And we're like, okay, so we moved in there for a month. And we

Alex Ferrari 13:53
Does George know this?

Jay Chandrasekhar 13:57
Robes around the slippers and we go feed his pigs. Thanks. That's right. And we had a bomb. And when he got home, he's like, you know, introduce me to these knuckleheads are sleeping in my house. So we met him and he goes, What are you guys trying to do? And we're like, well, we're trying to do this movie and he read it and he goes, this is a great movie, I'll participate. And I was like, Alright, okay, so that was how we're going. And I think we asked him to be in it because I'm just gonna produce. Okay, good. So, then we, you know, we're like, trying to take that around town. And, you know, the jersey films, which is Dan to beat us company is like, we're simultaneously trying to create a television show with them around Super Troopers, because, you know, didn't make it as a movie. We're well let's make his TV show. Then we are unable to sell that. To Fox. We've had a pilot to Fox right. We had a pilot and there We're like, we don't know about them. We don't know about you guys. And they pass. So then Jersey films like why don't we make it move? And I'm like, Well, we're already making it with George Clooney. Great. We'll jump on. So now we're in Danny DeVito and George Clooney and two companies. And Soderbergh is giving us notes on the movie because he's with Clooney. And Soderbergh's, like I don't know about this opening scene, I guess. I don't even know what this he goes. I don't know what's so funny about these cops because I think you guys need a new wrinkle to it like you need you know how, like in Point Break there were those those President United States masks, he was like that, like, Why can't hide our faces? Because we're not famous. But I did. But but we're like, we're not doing that notice. In any case, so then we go around to all the studios, and they all go Yeah, already said no to that. We're not doing it just because you guys are. So now we're like, what the hell? All the independent people said no. And, and, you know, so finally, we're like, I'm in my office pack. I had a New York office, and I was I had moved to LA but I go in there, bring everything back. So pack in the opposite. Get ready, get unplugged the phone again. It's done. I'm moving out. And the phone rings and I pick it up and it's my friend cricket. And she goes, Hey, I hate to do this to you. But you know, my father is a investment banker. And he's, he's retiring and he wants to write scripts, and you're the only one I know is kind of in showbusiness kind of cricket. And he goes, Do you mind just talking to him? He wrote a script, he needs somebody else to look at it, I guess. And I'm like, alright, I'll do it. Right. And so I get on the phone with this guy. And he's like, because you write scripts. He's like, Donald banker, kind of like, tough guy. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, we've written a couple that goes, All right. Well, I wrote a script to it. I'm like, Oh, great. Don't make me read it. But I know you will. And then he's like, I guess I'll send it to you. But why don't you send me your script first. So I can just see what kind of writers you are. And I'm like, I'm being audition to read. Terrible script to sell Exactly. But I like cricket, and I kind of want to kiss her. So I'm like, you know, then I didn't kiss her. But anyway. So I said, I send the script over to this guy. And he, you know, a few days later, he calls me back. And you know, I'm unplugged the phone. Yeah. And he goes, I read your script. I said, Okay. I'm waiting for him to go. Okay. Now. Now I get to read your script. And he goes, pretty funny. Oh, yeah. Because what are you doing with it? I said, Well, it's a banker and raising money. Because how much you need. I said, we need a million to six. That's our budget. And he goes, I'll do it. And I hang up the phone and walk in my producers. I'm like, I know, the banker on the floor, wants to do the movie. And he goes, I will. My producer was an investment banker, too. He goes, Oh, to get this guy to fly? I'll find out, you know, I'll be able to suss him out. And he gets on the phone. He goes, Okay, right. Oh, and then he hangs up because he's a real deal guy. And within within about two weeks now, the bank,

Alex Ferrari 18:24
No, money dropped within two. I've never heard of a movie drop money dropping.

Jay Chandrasekhar 18:28
I'm funding the deal. Let's do it. That's how he looks at it. He goes, when I say I'm funding the deal, the money goes in the thing. And I'm like, why? Wow.

Alex Ferrari 18:38
That is what that is called. Just some some force in the universe just said, It's time for these boys to go make their movie started like that and

Jay Chandrasekhar 18:49
Run them all the way to the end where there's just unplugging the phone.

Alex Ferrari 18:55
Just just as a joke, we'll just go. Here's one last.

Jay Chandrasekhar 19:00
What do you got to pass the test? Which is to be nice to cricket.

Alex Ferrari 19:03
Right! Because if you so basically, we weren't I wouldn't be sitting here right now. God knows where your career would have been. If you wouldn't have been nice to cricket.

Jay Chandrasekhar 19:11
I would have been the Indian guy in the deli selling cigarettes to Brad Pitt when he goes to have sex with whoever.

Alex Ferrari 19:19
They're really funny. Really funny.

Jay Chandrasekhar 19:24
I it may not be true, but I call myself the Indian Jackie Robinson of of comedy. And it's because there were no there were no Indians in comedy. Right. And I got in and a lot of them have come up to him and like, Hey, I saw you on the screen. I thought I could do that too. And you know as these and Mindy and all these folks, I mean, if you look at the wave, there was me and then everybody came in and they're doing great work. I mean, look at all these great people. So

Alex Ferrari 19:58
Yeah, um, You were the Jackie Robinson, sir. You were the Jackie

Jay Chandrasekhar 20:02
Robinson. Yeah, I mean, you know, nobody hurled things at me from the stands are called me.

Alex Ferrari 20:07
There's that. There's that. But But you did have to sit in a room with Harvey Weinstein. So there's that.

Jay Chandrasekhar 20:15
You know, it was it was quite, it was actually quite thrilling. I didn't know. Obviously, all the stuff he had done.

Alex Ferrari 20:21
No, look, not everybody, every week could correct trash him now, because he's a monster and all that. But in the 90s, he was a god.

Jay Chandrasekhar 20:28
Yeah, I don't trash everyone's I mean, he's, what he was doing was awful. But you know, there were a lot of people around who seemed to know what he was, what he was doing, like it was just what the boss did. And you're like,

Alex Ferrari 20:48
I don't and there's, and there's a lot of that stuff that happens in Hollywood. I had heard stories running around town about that since I was starting out. So it's something that hopefully has changed a bit, but I think it has changed, I think, a tremendous, a tremendous amount since since the 90s. And early 2000s, without question, alright, so you get Super Troopers funded by a miracle. Miracle you're shooting? What is it? What is it like shooting? How did how did the production go smoothly? How did it run?

Jay Chandrasekhar 21:17
It had to go smoothly, because we only had the money for 28 days of shooting. Like he's like, in fact, peatland God put in 1,000,002, not a million to six pieces. Like that's all I'm giving you. And so I put in 30, and credit card and rich per element producer put in 13 credit card and we were like, hanging on by a thread. And, you know, like, the weather had to go well, the film. I mean, we shot on film, it had to be you know, everything had to go well, and it and it did. It went it went according to plan. And then we you know, we cut it together. And you know, it was Sundance was, was interested in the film because of the previous thing. But we were so close to the deadline that it was, it was you know, like we had shot it. We shot it in June and the Sundance deadline was, you know, September. Yeah, September. So we cut it together, we put together we sent it in, and I was in. I can't remember. Anyway, whenever we got the call, you get a Thanksgiving that they see or, or your or they don't call it. But the we got the call that we were in and we were like, oh my god, we have to finish this movie in time. And we're not sure we can even do it because we were the do art film lab. And yet all the films that got in were rushing. And so we just received finished, right. And, in fact, it was so close that we we ended up in the do art film lab on the morning that we were flying to Salt Lake City, that we're watching the final approach. And I was sitting in that room with Kevin Halford into play farva And the color timer. And we're watching it. And we're watching it and like watch the first the opening scene of Super Troopers. If you haven't seen it, like I'm a cop, and I know you've seen it though, I guess. And another, we pull over some stoners, and we we mess with them. And there's some other things that's so and it's you know what, it has gone on to become the scene which we're known most for, I would say like, you know, like they're like, it's the scene that describes broken lizards comedy, I think quite well, and people were like that to you guys. Okay, so I watched that scene. And the title of the film comes up Super Troopers. And I'm like, Can we can we turn the lights on for a second? And they stopped the film. And I stand up and I look at Kevin, I'm like, we blew it. That opening scene sucks. And he was we talking about? And I'm like, it's terrible. Otherwise, I act like that. I don't know what. Nobody was telling me that I was acting like that. And he goes, I think it's pretty good, dude. I'm like, What the hell do you know? And the color type of goes, I think it's pretty good too. I'm like, You know what, pal? It's not. And we got to go to Utah tomorrow and show this terrible learn. Right? And I'm like, Ah, Doom. I was just feeling doom. Wow. And in fact, the opening scene a puddle cruiser is the worst scene in the movie. It's just okay. You know, like, like it with comedies. You want to get them laughing fast so that you can keep them laughing and they're like, oh, yeah, we're laughing we're supposed to. So I was like, we tried so hard to make Super Troopers a good opening scene. It was just because of how bad the opening pedal cruiser was. We the product was there opening was so it wasn't bad. It was just slow and whatever. We used to take up a marionette. Like it was Jimmy the dummy, right? And it's like a little ventriloquist guy. And we did a whole scene at the first Sundance with this dummy, where, you know, like one of us would go up on stage and go, Hey, the film print broke. And we're getting a new one shipped in from Salt Lake, the whole packed audience, and the audience have grown. But it's coming, it's coming. We'd make up this thing. And then the dummy had like somebody on the on the, in the audience ago, unprofessional. That was one of us, right? And then another guy would be like, Hey, leave him alone. And is this guy with a ventriloquist dummy. And they go, what? I think these guys are young filmmakers, and they're trying really hard. And then the guy you shut up, you dummy. And then everybody be yelling at each other. And then a guy in a UPS uniform. What am I guys would come run it in. I got the film. And he'd run unspool everywhere, right? And the audience was laughing and laughing. And then we started the movie, and they're laughing and then they go, I was like, to Kevin, I'm like, we gotta go back to my house right now. We'll take the cab go back to pick up Jimmy, the dummy. We're doing the things sketch again. Because we're not doing it. We're just showing it and I'm like, to go to Park City. And we're in a bar, and I'm sitting in the bars, Harvey wants you. And I'm like, oh, we gotta get this guy in the screening, right? And so we send Marissa Coughlin who's in the movie, and she knows him. And she's, he's, she's, he's like, he's like, come on over. And so it was I'm telling the story of this criminal now. So and So Harvey, and, and he's like, look, Jay, I'd love to go to your movie. But I got a meeting right in the middle of it. I can't. If I go to your movie, and I leave, you're not selling your movie. And I'm like, I know. But if if I said, well just put you in the back seat. just sneak out and then you know, he goes, Okay, I'll come to your movie. Put me in the back seat. I'll sneak out and I'll come back. And I'm like, great. Let's do it. And so we do it. We put them in the back seat, back row. place is packed with really high and kind of drunk people because it's like a midnight screening. And we know a lot of people in LA and New York. Everyone's like, yeah, revved up, right. And they all turn and look at Harvey Weinstein. And they go well, right. He's here. Holy shit. He's here, right? And so he's sitting in the back. The movie starts unlike, it's gonna be terrible. And immediately the laughs start rolling and rolling. And then I mean, it rolled. And then when that title came up, the place blows up into an ovation. And tears rolled up. Because I was so tense. I was so tense. And then I'm like pacing in the lobby as enlisting to the movie laughter. And Harvey gets up around the 30 minute mark, he goes, this movie is killing, because I'm coming back. And he, he leaves goes to thing and he comes back and he slides right in he goes, incredible. And at the end of the movie, he goes, come over, talk to me talk to me, because I'm not going to necessarily buy your film yet, because I haven't seen it all. But this is going to help you. Because he watch what happens here. And he goes, in fact, I want you to meet me at this bar. And you watch where we'll be in. You'll be in the daily, whatever the page six. I'm like, okay, so we meet up at this bar, right? And, and I'm there and like, whatever. We're kind of chatting, I'm a spy the movie, because I got to watch it first, give me the print. So we're kind of doing that thing. And I'm at the bar and executives from searchlight. And executives from Sony are like don't sell don't sell to Harvey. Let us we need more people to come see it don't sell or don't sell. And in fact, it created this frenzy. And then we showed it again Saturday night. And we showed it again Sunday night and searched late and made an offer a three and a half. And we're like Harvey, you want to beat that with Sony, whatever. And search sites like that offer expires when your Sunday night screening starts. So take it early. And we're like, We'll take it. We'll take it. Thank God we took a search like because we had such a nice career with those guys. And we never had to deal with, you know, Harvey Scissorhands, which is what he was called by a lot of filmmakers. So we went in recut. I mean, like, obviously a lot worse things recut movies, but I always grateful that I never fell into his his hands.

Alex Ferrari 29:36
Right. But at least he did whatever he did for you back in the day. It started the conversation. It's that's that's an amazing story. So you tripled your budget, and your career was off the ground. I have to ask you, I mean, it turned into a huge hit. I mean, it was it and not only huge financial box office hit but then DVDs back then and

Jay Chandrasekhar 29:58
It made Fox over 100 A million dollars, cheese, a million dollar movie. Almost every penny of

Alex Ferrari 30:07
I was about to say almost every single buddy I like I'm sure that you didn't get that. But but so let me ask you a question I always love asking filmmakers who get this kind of situation happen to them this kind of lottery, I call it the lottery ticket. Because it's like it's, it is a lottery, it's a lottery ticket moment that you worked very hard for. It's not like you was lucky to get it. But all the circumstances that happened like crickets was gives you the money. And then Sunday, there's a lot of these things that happen. How did the town treat you as the director of this film afterwards?

Jay Chandrasekhar 30:43
That what happens is there's a period of, of heat, right? So we instantly got to television deals one with the NBC and one with ABC. You know, like we we entered into, you know, searchlight one at our next film, which would become Club Dread. And, you know, we were, I was in the conversation around town as one of the new guys. But I wasn't pursuing that I didn't even know how to pursue it. Because I was like, I would read these, you know, often not great comedy scripts. And I go, Well, no, I can't make a not great movie, but didn't occur to me that I could then put my improvement tour on it and rewrite it 10 Guys rewrite it or we rewrite I didn't even know that sounds like, well, if it's this now then I can't make that movie. That's how kind of dumb I was. And so I passed a lot of good movies. And then I said, Oh, well, you know what, this is an idea for a film this movie. And I'll just take it, I'll rewrite everything. And and then it'll be the same movie, but it'll be about my version, which should be in my opinion, a good now, like, that's what I do. But then, yeah, I was, I was like, one of the guys who, you know, I was on variety, top 10, directors, you know, all that stuff,

Alex Ferrari 32:22
You went through the water bottle. So you went through the water bottle tool, or you just went, you met everybody.

Jay Chandrasekhar 32:26
The bottom line is, in the film, business is a largely self generating business. And if you relax and be like, I made it, I'm in the top 10. Director, so it's meaningless. It's like, yeah, some producer might call you and go, Hey, can you do something with this, they're still trying to get the money. And, you know, if you're not generating yourself, if you're not out there going, I want to make a movie about this. And this, this, and I'm gonna write this script. And this is the writer is going to do it. We're going to do that together. And if you're not doing that, you're not getting movement. Still.

Alex Ferrari 33:00
Still, at any level. I mean, even Spielberg can can get some things made, but he still has to develop and build and do things like that.

Jay Chandrasekhar 33:09
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's has a little easier.

Alex Ferrari 33:13
But yeah, a little bit a little bit easier. That

Jay Chandrasekhar 33:15
Leads me to this. I don't want to jump off your train. Yeah. But if you want to continue we can I have a spiel Brooks. I love skills.

Alex Ferrari 33:24
I have so many people who've worked with Spielberg on the show. I have he, it seems to me that he always he's always in the mix somehow, with any any, any big thing that happens in town, you always get the call from even if it's just like, hey, man, great movie. What was your what's your Spielberg story?

Jay Chandrasekhar 33:39
Well, I was I was sitting at home in the pandemic. And I basically had turned into like a full time golfer, like I played every day. And I was just sort of there and I get this call from my agent that said, hey, what do you know about Joe coy? And I said, Well, Joe coy the comic I mean, it's funny, funny, dude. Right? Instead, well, okay, here's the deal. Joe coy has done a stand up special on Netflix. And Steven Spielberg during the pandemic happened to watch it. And he loves Joe Callie. And now he's like, wants to make a chill coin movie. And they want to do it in Vancouver. And they want to and you gotta go any day now, because the film can only be shot in May in June because that's Jo Koy standup window, where he's got stand up shows all over the world and the big show so and I'm like, big shows really? sells out 16,000 seat arenas. I was like, oh, oh, okay. And I'm like, okay, so May June. So we got to be in Vancouver when Monday and they're like, Yeah, kinda. And I'm like, Okay, so I'm in the strips. So I read this rapid I'm like Okay, I got it. I mean, I know Joe's stand up, and it's, uh, it's like attempting to be about his family. And I'm like, Yeah, I said, you know, look, this script, were I to do it would need some work, but it's not work that can't be done. So I said, y'all go. Well, I mean, cuz they Amblin was asking for me to go. And I said, Yeah, I'll do it. So I flew to Vancouver. And and when did a quarantine for two weeks in a in a hotel very nice. But it was hard, where I couldn't see any but I can step over the the entrance to the I just stayed in that room. And then I got out and Jo Koy came to town and I met him for the first time. I mean, I we'd met on Zoom. And we you know, I hired a writer, and she and I rewrote the thing. And, and then, you know, I started I met Steven Spielberg, I just because of the quarantine and the COVID thing, I get to know from every now and then like movie stars don't wear hats. And I'm like, okay, he can't wear a hat and the next thing but

Alex Ferrari 36:10
Steven, Mount Olympus called, and you can't,

Jay Chandrasekhar 36:14
You know, like, we were gonna hire an activist for a part that, and we sent it to him the choice. And you know, she was the more famous person, right? And I've been at Warner Brothers for years, I had to deal over there. And they're, like, just hire the most famous person, we'll put them on the poster, and we'll make it work. And I'm like, I just assumed everybody did that. And so I'm like, I get in the choice most vampers. And he sends a note back. There's other woman's much better actor than the most famous person or anything. And I'm like, Well, yeah, but she's not the most famous person. And he has when he when she was a better actor, I like of course I do. I didn't know I could. I did. So then I did. And it's the it's the central decision for the whole movie. Like, it's because we hired this woman. The movie works in a way you can't even believe in my view. It's called Easter Sunday. Right? Has this you know, you know, he's not just some rando. He's like, who just said, my name is on it? He's like, what about that? What do you think about that? And you're like, Okay, great. But you know,

Alex Ferrari 37:19
I'm assuming one day, you'll get a phone call, maybe,

Jay Chandrasekhar 37:22
You know, I will, I will. I will go to my grave, not assuming I'm gonna meet Steven Spielberg. Even though he's my boss, I just don't I don't see how that could happen. I live in a world where I'm like, constantly convinced I'm about to be kicked out of show business. So there's no space in that world for me to believe that I will meet Steven Spielberg. So

Alex Ferrari 37:41
I always love asking this question from from, you know, people who've hit a certain level in the business is like, do you do you? So you just said, you truly believe that at any moment, security is gonna come in, like, what are you doing here? You need to be escorted out.

Jay Chandrasekhar 37:54
Right! Like, I realized how ridiculous it is. Because I was I did a stand up show recently. And it was me. And Tiffany Haddish. And Anthony Jeselnik. And Tom Arnold, and we're upstairs. We're just chatting for comments, chatting. And I'm like, moments like these were my were where I have to admit that I might have made it. And I hate to admit that, because I'm so hungry. And I'm so they don't want me and show business. I'll show them I'll make a I'll make my 10th movie.

Alex Ferrari 38:33
No, I have to ask you. So that's fantastic. By the way, I was gonna bring you Easter Sunday because I saw Easter Sunday. And we've been working on this interview for months now. And then all of a sudden, I'm like, oh, Easter Sunday is coming out and like, and I'm such a joy cliff. I'm like, absolute huge joy play fan. And I've had I've had the pleasure of meeting him we almost work together on this close up almost working together years ago. And Joe is just wonderful. It's just I'm such a such a fan of his but Super Troopers to is such a unique story and how you got that made? Because the studio didn't want to make the sequel and you had to raise the money yourself. Right?

Jay Chandrasekhar 39:11
They were worried that it was too long. Between films. You know, first one came out in 2002. The second one might have come out in 2016 or 18, or something, I don't know. But it was it was it was a long time. They were like ah or no. And they're like, so they said well, why don't you raise the money yourself? Really, you made $100 million. You can't just carve a couple up. And they're like, yeah, it raise the money yourself will distribute it and like okay, and then they said and you have to raise the prints and advertising budget to which is all the money. It's the budget and all the money to release it. So you're talking about, in this case, we had to raise $30 million. And I'm like, I can't raise 30.

Alex Ferrari 40:13
Cricket, cricket.

Jay Chandrasekhar 40:17
Cricket, British jazz, like, I'll put money in. And we put money together. We had like, I don't know, maybe we got to about five or so. And then we were like, kind of hit a wall didn't weren't eight. And then they also said, we'll never let you take to another studio because other studios are like, Neff. You know, Netflix they will do. Oh, yeah. Can't take it out of work. No. And we're not making it but no, he can't take. So we happened upon this. I mean, we, you know, we, we watched watch the news, we saw these brought from Mars had raised some money for the movie of that. And we thought, well, cat, I mean, we're at least in a similar position, and you know that a thing they loved and they're doing a thing. So we we hired the guy did that campaign sky Ivan asked cough. And he he, he put together account, he first of all, he goes, I'm not terribly familiar with your work. That's the first thing he said. And I'm like a computer guy. And you have no tact or anything. It's so funny. And he then he goes, You know, there's quite a bit of interest in your comedy. around the internet. I've done a search. And I was like, how do you what, okay, and he goes, I'm gonna take this job. And I'm like, okay, great. Let's do it. Thanks. This incredible campaign with great art and incentives. And we made a video where you like, we locked farva in the trunk of a car, and I remember it, and then we said, Give us money, or else we won't let them out of the truck. And then we push go on the campaign. And it was like, oh, like, I mean, we raised I think $5.8 million

Alex Ferrari 42:15
On Indiegogo, right,

Jay Chandrasekhar 42:16
Indiegogo, something like that we were second to product remarks. Whatever they made, we've made a little less. And, and search site was like, what? Oh, how many 50,000 people gave me money. And they're like, Oh, okay. Oh, wow. Great. And then. So then we were able to then now they were really excited about it. And and then they agreed to release the film for us with their money. It's nice. And so yeah, so we still funded the production. They they funded the you know, but we made the movie. And then we tested the movie. And the reaction in the audience was like, I mean, it was insane. The reaction and all the searchlight executives are there. And when they put the they take keep 20 people back to talk to him about the what? How would you feel about the movie? And that and they're like, this is from a franchise? And yeah, so the test did I tell you about the testing of the screen. It tested incredibly well, like the numbers were astronomical. The audience was comparing it to franchises like Star Wars. And Fox, people were like, Oh, my God, we gotta hit. And so they pour the money and they did great campaign, two posters, super cool. Everything was great. And we were like, holy, this is incredible. We're gonna we're gonna have a, you know, it looks really good. We're gonna have a hit movie. And so then the weekend, the week we arrived in New York, it's what you do at the end of the of the campaign to do press in New York Press. We're, it's Monday, and the policy is with us. It's like, I hate to break it to you guys. But whatever, you got really bad tracking on this movie. Like, and the tracking predicts what the box office opening weekend is gonna pay. And they're like, it's it's tracking to open to about $3 million, right? In order to be a success. This movie would in search sites view what he wanted to open to 10 You know, that would be a success for a small film. And we were like, 3 million. How's that possible? Like we had a 50,000. And they're like, Well, you know, like our fans have been notoriously stoners, right? They're like a little slow to the mark. A little slower the market. Got there, like they would have to do a Stand Up Show. There'll be tickets available up until an hour before the Friday and there's like 100 Tickets available. And then boom, it's sold out and you're like gas kit. Get your internet Oh, can you do this? So I'm like, maybe that's it. And they're like, maybe I don't know. And Monday, Tuesday is still tracking three, Wednesday, it's still tracking 3 million. And everyone's like, we make the president of searchlight calls and go, Hey, man, we tried. I'm sorry, right. And then Thursday morning, we're in an interview in some brewery or something in Brooklyn or something. And publicists, because she's looking at her phone. She goes, there's some weird there's some weird and numbers out of the matinees that, well, they're just not, they're not right, but we're gonna get a check. We're gonna check. And I said, What are they there? She's like, well, the next are sold out. And I'm like, Yeah, that's that's true. And so she goes, yeah, there's a problem with the computer the system. There's a problem, obviously, obviously. So then the next screening she goes, yeah, these these numbers are stupid. They're all sold out. And the so two screenings are now sold out morning at 11am. And one and then the third one, she was sold out again. Like he's a real numbers, and suddenly, we've now we went Thursday, we went Friday, were the top movie in the country. And, and we had 1800 screens, I think, or something like that. And Amy Schumer had 2600 2800 screens. So we were beating her on per screen average. And then with the volume of Sprint's they ended up winning the weekend, but we won the per screen average for the weekend with our 1800 scripts. It was a miracle. It was a miracle, and searchlights. Like, let's make two more movies. And then you know, there we go. And there we go.

Alex Ferrari 46:48
And now that's why now you're writing Super Troopers 3.

Jay Chandrasekhar 46:51
We made a film called quasi, which is set in 13th century France. And Steve Lemmy plays a hunchback, and I play the King of France, and Paul said, replace the Pope. And it's a full on Monty Python esque style movie. I'm sure people are gonna go, you guys aren't as good as Python and will go away agree. But still, we made one and we said, You know what the end knew we were in it with this accent. You're like, oh my god, we're in the middle of a Python movie.

Alex Ferrari 47:22
That's amazing. That's amazing. Now I'm jam and ask you a couple questions. Ask all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Jay Chandrasekhar 47:31
Well, my advice would be don't wait around for other people to let you in. Because there are people like me on the other side of the door, pressing our shoulders against it to keep you up. And the only way and is through that door. So keep pushing. Until wait for me to let you in.

Alex Ferrari 47:55
That's not gonna happen.

Jay Chandrasekhar 47:56
I got this side. I'm in Vegas, the hotel. That's good. The answer as it's awesome. We respond to the same things you would think we respond to, which is followers. And, and numbers. Like if you can demonstrate an audience by making your short films and putting them on the internet and having people watch him, you know, and we go, Oh, my God, a million people watch Oh, wow, that's good. Maybe well, you know, comes with a built in audience, you know, it's like it. It, it's not easy, but it's also you have an ability to chart sort of do things cheaply. The problem for the new generation is that so many people are trying to do things cheaply. There's so much stuff you're like, it's hard to really get your mind around it. And so, you know, the system benefits those with access to capital. And that's sort of the sad truth of it. All right, if you can, if you can raise money. I mean, it's even harder now. Because it's like, Sundance isn't what it used to be, you know, like the people are not. Companies are not going to Sundance and necessarily buying. I mean, they are they're buying phones, but it's a little different. It's not, you know, you don't have these people are automatically in the theater. So yeah, I was streaming a little bit and you know, and that's all good. And that's all good. But that's sort of the changing moment here.

Alex Ferrari 49:20
Do you think that Super Troopers, what would happen if Super Troopers got released today?

Jay Chandrasekhar 49:24
It probably would have gone to somebody like Netflix, maybe?

Alex Ferrari 49:30
Maybe we've ended up knowing that you did. Nobody knew who you were, you made a million dollar movie,

Jay Chandrasekhar 49:35
I believe it would have sold because the response in the room was electric. And that's really the game right? If you can get to Sundance and show the movie in a room full of people, you've flipped the power dynamics so that the buyer instead of watching it on their desk on their laptop and drinking coffee and walking around and doing all this stuff, they are now in a room with audience in the hall. Do you have to like and they're like oh no what do i do i better buy it. I mean that's sort of how that works. And that still works that way you know like I you can still get a movie it into the theater so if you're nobody's and you know nobody's in the movie then it's harder right it's like the probably end up on a streaming service first and maybe you'll never get out of there. I don't really know. I mean, the problem with the problem and Netflix is they pay more money than searchlight does. And and you know, and then the movie ends up being sitting there you know, lost in the soup doesn't have the same when you get a postcard campaign and interviews and it you know, the movie series into audiences brains in a different way. You know, the the movies on Netflix, currently don't do that in my view.

Alex Ferrari 50:55
Right. Yeah, you've right I mean, Top Gun. did what it did because of it. Well, it did. Okay. Yeah. The biggest Memorial Day weekend opening ever. Oh, good.

Jay Chandrasekhar 51:05
Good, good. Good. I you know, the whole thing is I want I you know, I said to universal when we were getting ready to think about how we're going to put out this movie in the middle of the pandemic, of course, the movie tested well, Easter Sunday tested really well. Joe coy is the biggest ticket selling stand up comic in showbiz. He's number Wow, wow. That was 56,000 seats in Los Angeles and three nights. He says 30,000 in Seattle, he is filling hockey arenas everywhere he goes. And I said to them, Look, guys, we got to we got a theatrical comedy that works really the audience's we tested. They love it. We've Jo Koy in his first film, this is like having Steve Martin before the church or Eddie Murphy before for eight hours. We got him. And you guys are universal. And I mean, like, if we can sell this as a theatrical comedy. We you guys, we should all stop. You know. Cuz I said we gotta be you know, we're all looking around go, who's gonna bring the actual economy back? You know who it is? It's us. We're, we're, we've been put here to do this. This is our turn. It's time to do it. And so I've been telling people like, we're bringing the company back. And we're the only theatrical comedy coming out this summer. That's how bad it's gotten.

Alex Ferrari 52:22
You're absolutely right. I mean, yeah. I mean, it is outrageous. And now it's like everyone's saying that theaters are just for the event films. And they are for certain extent, of course. But, you know, like a film, a film like Easter Sunday will absolutely open. Well, I mean, you've got an audience that is used to buying tickets for this artist on top of it sounds like, make sense.

Jay Chandrasekhar 52:44
We'll see if I'm right. I mean, we'll see if I'm right. But I but I hope I am. I mean, you know, it's a gambling business, you know, that it's gunslingers and gamblers

Alex Ferrari 52:53
We're working on we're such a big joke, my fans, my family and our daughters, everyone. So we're gonna we're gonna head out to the theaters to see it when it comes out.

Jay Chandrasekhar 53:01
To do we do you know about my the APA credit, are you?

Alex Ferrari 53:05
I don't, ah, tell me about the app.

Jay Chandrasekhar 53:10
So it all goes back, Super Troopers comes out after this incredible Sundance experience comes out in the theaters. And the reviewers on Rotten Tomatoes, a site named for throwing rotten fruit that people like me some site. They give it a 38% Fresh, the reviewers, right? And I was like, what, what, what do we have to do? Like and the and then that's 100 people. Then over time, you know, the audience weighed in, and and the audience gave us a 90% Fresh, right? That's 200,000 people read it that way. And I'm like, Who are these strangers with outsize power, right? They're just, they're, you know, a reviewer, I got no problem with reviews, right? I shouldn't think they're valuable. But aggregating all of them, and putting it into a score is just nonsensical, like we got reviewed for Beer Fest from a woman in Arizona named grandmas reviews. And her review of the film was, I didn't like it. There's too much drinking. I'm like it's an ode to binge drinking. It's called Pure fats. So but that goes into a reviewer score. And you're like, I said, Oh, my God, I need to get revenge on Rotten Tomatoes and stood with me for 1820 years. And then I said, I know how I'm going to do it. I'm going to build an app. Right? I mean, look, the premise is this. reviewers are strangers. When's the last time you walked up to a stranger on the street and said, Hey, what movie should I see? That's what we're doing

Alex Ferrari 54:54
Exactly.

Jay Chandrasekhar 54:56
In Rotten tomatoes. You're taking all these strangers aggregate They're strange opinions and putting it together. There you go. Here's what the strangest thing. So I said, you know, I want to build an app that is, you if you want advice for a movie, you talk to your friends, right? You talk to your friends, your or maybe you know some celebrity on something that some filmmakers today, this is a good movie road to Busan or whatever it is, Train to Busan era. And so I made an app, I started to develop an app that was going to be a recommendation site for movies, TV books, podcasts, music, right? And I connected with these two guys who are computer guys, and they were already reacting to this. You know, like Amazon reviews or Yelp reviews, they're like, who wrote the review? Was it the owner of the restaurant who wrote it? Was it the restaurant across the street and wrote them a bad review? Was it somebody who doesn't like the waiter who gave them a bet? I mean, you know, you're like, you just you're strangers, right? So they were working on an idea to try to solve that problem. And we teamed up. And we made a thing called vouch fault. All right. It's in the App Store notes in the Apple Store. It's in the Android store. And it's basically that says, basically Instagram for recommendations. So if you open my vault, you'll see that I like Reservoir Dogs, you'll see that I like Pulp Fiction, you'll see that I like Richard Pryor live in Long Beach that Stand Up Show. You'll see that I like that joke Koy stand up, you'll see I put Super Troopers there you see, you know, if I like this indie hustle, you could see that like, you can put anything you like. And so if you follow me, like, oh, Jay likes this thing, and you push a button, you can try it, right. But books, anything, I have all sorts of books on there, right? And so it'll work best. I think the goal is to say it's a word of mouth machine, you know, it's also a memory machine so that when I tell my children you know, this Fleetwood Mac rumours album was very important for you to listen to they go, it's not just me saying it. It's there in the vault. Right? They go, Oh, yeah, Dad was talking about this album, I listened to it. You know, it's like and if you if you somebody recommend something in the past, you write it down on a little note in your phone right here. There's a tribal you just stick it in there. So when you're home on a Friday night and like what's in my tribe while you're like oh, yeah, this new BBC Three documentary I wanted to see I remember I wrote it down there it is. Try it. And so it's it's a machine that I hope is going to change the way specifically film is judged the way you know, I want reviewers on there. I'm gonna talk I'm trying to get oh and gleeman and trying to get Drew McWeeny and go hey, guys, I tell me what you love. Right? Tell me the films you love that nobody knows about. And then I'll watch them. You know? I'm not trying to kill reviewers. I'm I am trying to kill Rotten Tomatoes. I am. It is a revenge ploy. It is a revenge.

Alex Ferrari 58:02
You are not the only assert. You're not the only one who feels some vengeance as needed against Rotten Tomatoes, many filmmakers, many filmmakers feel the same way you are and I

Jay Chandrasekhar 58:12
All get on this app. And let's show them who we are.

Alex Ferrari 58:15
Fantastic. And last question, three of your favorite films of all time.

Jay Chandrasekhar 58:20
48 hours, Reservoir Dogs and Goodfellas

Alex Ferrari 58:29
Rest in peace Ray Liotta

Jay Chandrasekhar 58:31
They're all the reason they're all on that list is because they're all tough, funny films. And I like I like it when the guy when the people are tough in the movie. And I like when they're when it's that funny and it's that you know it's sometimes you know, violent and funny is some sometimes really funny but they played straight for eight hours you're like there's some broad stuff but there's some the bad guys are bad the violence is is terrifying and obviously Goodfellas is a way it's funny as hell.

Alex Ferrari 59:06
Joe Pesci scene alone

Jay Chandrasekhar 59:09
I can't believe really leave it at that Reservoir Dogs is still work.

Alex Ferrari 59:17
It's a masterpiece masterpiece. Jay and when is Easter Easter Sunday coming up

Jay Chandrasekhar 59:23
August 5th.

Alex Ferrari 59:25
Man I cannot wait to see it. And Jay thank you so much for coming on the show man and and sharing your adventures and your knowledge with experiences with the tribe man, I really appreciate you. Thank you for your inspiration and just like you were inspired by Ed burns and and Clerks and Kevin and Mariachi and all those kinds of films. People listening now hopefully will be inspired by us like if this guy can do it.

Jay Chandrasekhar 59:49
That's right. That guy can do it. That's a John Oliver said to me when I was I was directing him community. He had never acted before. And I'd seen him do stand up and I loved him to stand up. I said John has first acting scene ever and then like, he nervous at all. And he goes, how hard could it be?

Alex Ferrari 1:00:23
A pleasure meeting you my friend. Thank you again for being on the show brother continued success and I can't wait to see Easter Sunday, man. Thanks again.

Jay Chandrasekhar 1:00:28
For indie hustle, buddy. I'm gonna put indie hustle in my bouch ball.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:32
Indie Film Hustle. I appreciate you brother. Thank you again, man.

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