Film Production

IFH 263: From Avengers to Shooting Improv Indie Films with Cobie Smulders

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Today’s guest is actress Cobie Smulders. You may recognize Cobie from blockbuster films like The Avengers, The Avengers: Age of Ultron, Captain America: Winter Soldier and Jack Reacher: Never Go Back. She’ll also be in the new Spidey film Spider-Man: Far from Home. I’ve been a fan of Cobie’s for a while now. Her ability to jump from mega-blockbuster to ultra-low budget indie film has always fascinated me.

One of the main reasons I wanted to chat with Cobie was to discuss her new film Alright Now. What makes her new film unique is that it was shot 100% Improv-style, just like I shot my film This is Meg and On the Corner of Ego and Desire. I wanted to see why an actress used to shooting big studio tentpoles would be attracted to making a low budget improv indie in the UK. What was her experience being out there acting with no net. Also what it was like working with Jamie Adams (who will be a guest in the show soon), the writer/director of Alright Now. Here’s a bit about the film:

ALRIGHT NOW follows Joanne (Cobie Smulders, “How I Met Your Mother, Avengers”) a rock musician who drunkenly enrolls in college after she breaks up with her boyfriend and her band falls apart. Convinced she will give the youngsters a run for their money, Joanne is shocked to discover that no one knows who she is and they could care less about her rock star past. Completely improvised and Directed by Jamie Adams (Black Mountain Poets), ALRIGHT NOW is a feel-good comedy about love, life and the search for new beginnings.

Enjoy my conversation with actress Cobie Smulders.

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Alex Ferrari 1:36
Today on the show, we have actress extraordinare Cobie Smulders from the new film all right now now, I generally don't have actors on I have them every once in a while and of over 260 episodes that I've done. I've only had a handful of actors on and I wanted to bring Colbie on one because I am a huge, huge fan of cobis ever since how our our met your mother, where she was one of the stars of that, as well as because I'm a comic book geek. All of her work on the Marvel films, as well as Jack Reacher and other amazing projects is done. And she's generally known now for doing a lot of big blockbuster style movies. But this movie all right now was a small indie movie. And I wanted to kind of go inside of her mind of how she chose the project, what she was doing. And the cool part about this project was that it was shot in five days, completely improv by director Jamie Adams from the UK, who is going to be a guest on the show on Thursday, actually. So we're going to be bringing him on as well to discuss his process. But I wanted to hear what Cobie had to say about being an actress of her statute to be out on the edge that way of being completely free and scared to death because there's no net to catch you out there as an actor as a as a creator, when you make films like this, because that's my first two features are made were made the exact same way. And I wanted to hear her point of view of how she felt as an actress, what drew her to the project, and if she would do it again, so I can't wait for you guys to listen to it. Now. One little side note the audio pops in and out a little bit. We had a rough connection with Cobie but overall you're going to be here most of everything she has to say. But there will be a little bit of issues with the audio. So just wanted to make that perfectly clear to everybody listening. So without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Cobie Smulders.

Cobie Smulders 3:39
Hi!

Alex Ferrari 3:40
How are you?

Cobie Smulders 3:42
I'm doing so good. How are you?

Alex Ferrari 3:43
I'm fantastic. I literally just finished watching all all right now and it was really great. You did a fantastic performance.

Cobie Smulders 3:49
Oh, that's very, very kind of you. Yeah, it was a it was a fun little passion project. Tiny little movie.

Alex Ferrari 3:57
Right. And I will Yeah, considering that you used to you know, work running around with Thor and Hulk. I mean, I'm assuming

Cobie Smulders 4:05
That's a slightly different film and that kind of stuff.

Alex Ferrari 4:08
And when I when I first saw the trailer reminded me of your, your character Robbins alteration ego in How I Met Your Mother.

Cobie Smulders 4:16
Yeah. As I know, it is a little bit about like, if if Robin daggers had been, you know, more successful, you know, she might have gone on to just milk that and turn into Joanne Skye. Exactly. So what? So what drew you to the project? Well, we don't know each other very well, but I like your challenge. And this movie certainly presented that in the sense that it was going to be shot in three days or three days, five days. It was completely improvised. We shot it in Cardiff and England. Nice and Yeah, it was just this like, weird little It was almost like acting camp, we would all we all slept in the same house together. It went into work, we had breakfast together, right right upstairs. And we kind of discussed, okay, these are the things that we kind of need to get done. Like I said, there's this script. So we would sort of generally know what we had we like, information we had to give the audience and each scene. And that was the only guideline we had. So it was just wild and wacky and I'd had never done a completely improvised film. And I'd seen some of his Jamie Jamie Adams, our director, I'd seen some of his other films. He's just finished this movie called Black Mountain poets, which was completely improvised, and it just looked like so much fun. And I was like, You know what? I'm going to go to London. I'm gonna go to England for a week, just shoot this movie and have this like, amazing, fun experience. And see what comes of it.

Alex Ferrari 6:02
That's amazing. Yeah. I kind of felt that because I had a little bit of a sua Swanberg and duplass. Brothers. Yeah. style to it without question. And you worked with Joe Swanberg, his wife on x unexpected? Yep, exactly. And that was that that was an improvised that was more scripted. No, that was scripted. That was scripted. Yeah. Yeah. But that must have been so much fun. It just going out there. And just like it well, first of all, how did how did you get pitched? Like, how does someone pitch you a film like this? How did this come into you?

Cobie Smulders 6:36
Because I mean, I don't know. Jamie is like Jamie is kind of, like, he's very, he knows so much about movies, and actors and performers. directors like I don't know exactly how I got on his radar for this. But he just kind of came after me. And, and since then we've become really great friends. But he just kind of comes up with these ideas. And since our movie, I mean, he's got to shoot like four more other four other ones that are completely improvised as well. So we just kind of gets an idea. And you just really see that through. So he just pitched it to my agent. And when I sort of heard about the parameters, all the things I just went through with you, I was like, this seems like totally insane. And I'm in

Alex Ferrari 7:35
it does take a brave actor or actress to to go down these roads, because it you're out there without a net.

Cobie Smulders 7:42
Basically, you got to do it, you know, and I I am all always trying to challenge myself. And I live a very simple, boring existence. I'm a mom. And I get to do some amazing projects. And I get to do some crazy work, but nothing where it's like, Alright, so in this scene, you are mad because of this, go and you just say whatever you want, and you can move wherever you want. And you can wear whatever you want. And you can be drunk or you don't have to be drunk. I mean, it's just like it. It's fun. It's just it's kind of like it reminded me of my youth, you know, like, doing like weird Improv Theater, you know, being like on some weird, small stage and in Canada just making up shit. And I was just so happy to like, be in that place. Again, everybody was just so lovely that we just saw on your blog,

Alex Ferrari 8:39
Like when that first pseudo lovemaking scene that you had, where it starts doing the dancing and the stripping it Yeah, that's that energy was so visceral. You could feel it come right. That was happening into the moment. It wasn't taped to it.

Cobie Smulders 8:54
Yeah. No, no, it will be time to meet him. For Richard do that. But we, we did it a few times. But it was with this medium, I think the way to do it. First of all, I learned, you know, toward the end, which was unfortunate for me that you don't ever want to do your coverage first. Because you kind of you find out what the scene is sort of toward the end of your coverage. And then so the person who goes next knows exactly what the scene is going to be and what it's about us. But when you go first, which I always did. It was really you just didn't know what to say or do and then something magic would happen. And then you try to recreate it but you couldn't and it was really, it was interesting, but you would have to do see quite a few times to go. What is as exactly and we're okay, so we'll do it again. But I won't go on to the bed. I'll come over here because it's like It's a group effort, right? Not only are we improvising, but the cameras improvising, and poor, you know, the poor boom operators, just out in the middle of the sea just doesn't know where he's going to be going next. And, you know, maybe departments all does, you know, it's all everybody is sort of, like, doesn't know what's what's going to happen next. So it's, it is very much a group effort. And it felt really cool to be a part of something where everybody was, creatively involved moment to moment. Yeah, you know, like, obviously, on a set, everybody is involved creatively, but this is like, we're all fully focused, everyone is paying attention, cuz we don't know what exactly is gonna happen.

Alex Ferrari 10:45
And where we're gonna end where it's like, you really are out there without a net. And it's a wonderful idea. It's so wonderful. It's like, You're, you're out there on the edge. And it's a wonderful place to be creatively. As an actor, as a director as everybody, even a camera guy. It's like, I don't know what's gonna happen next. It does keep me engaged.

Cobie Smulders 11:03
Exactly. Yeah, definitely.

Alex Ferrari 11:05
Now, your film filmography is pretty diverse. How do you pick your projects?

Cobie Smulders 11:13
I like to try to switch it up, I like to do different things. But I do get blessed a lot of the time, with playing strong female roles, which I definitely enjoy putting more of them out into the world. But I've been, I think it's it for me, it comes down to it's sort of like a checklist now, or it's like, you read a script, and you're like, oh, the writing is really great. Or this character is interesting, I haven't done it, or this character, like, is another version of something I've done, and I could kind of do it in a different way, and whatever it's going to be, and then you go, like, who's the director that? Who else is involved? And now because I have two children's, like, where does it shoot? So there's sort of a, there's sort of a variety of, of things to think about, but really what it comes down to it, you know, if I gravitate towards a character, um, and I can see myself playing it, or I go, what is this character, I've never done it before. I'm usually drawn to the character that I'm playing. I also like, it's hard to find a very well written script. And especially in this day and age, I mean, we're talking about a completely improvised movie right now, you know, you know, going into every project, that the words that you're reading on the page are are going to change. And there's, when you're on set on the day, things do change. And but when you read a script, and the story is so clear, and you see it visually, in your mind, as you're reading, it means it's a good script, you know, you're not focused on the bits that are happening, or, you know, where everything is set, you're not focused on the little things, you're intrigued, and you want to know what happened. And so when I read a script, and I'm, and I'm already fully immersed in this world, with these people, it's usually a good indication that I that I want to do it and then I just have to make sure it's okay with my whole family.

Alex Ferrari 13:18
Life balance, life, work, balance,

Cobie Smulders 13:20
Life balance, man, it's tough.

Alex Ferrari 13:21
It's tough. Now, as an actress, what are you looking for in a director?

Cobie Smulders 13:26
I know that I'm a very detail oriented person and a very light focused thinker. And I'm not very, my mind doesn't work in a being able to see an entire story in one piece. So it's really helpful to me to pair with the director who's like, who can watch a scene and go, you know what, let's not play that now. Because remember, that scene is cut, there's this scene that's going to come up. And that's the moment where, you know, this should be coming up, or this kind of emotion should be really coming to the surface. I'm sorry, I'm very sort of focused in what's happening in that present moment. That it's helpful to, to have somebody to help me sort of widen my my blinders and, and take a take a greater look at what the entire storyline is about and what we should be focusing on. It's also nice, it's like, I'm not I'm not self directing. I'm not good at like, you know, because it is it just like people, you're sort of thinking about what you should be thinking about, and you think that it's coming off, right? You think your face is saying that it's always helpful, and I'm not good at watching myself. So it's always helpful to have somebody behind the camera to try again, and maybe don't push it too hard, or, you know, let's, let's, let's push it harder, you know, whatever it's gonna be I do need a bit of a cheerleader involved.

Alex Ferrari 14:57
And I have to ask this question, how Is it working with Marvel and being part of the MCU? One of the most successful series in film history?

Cobie Smulders 15:09
It's crazy. It's, you know, I, we started this I was trying to think of when it was now was 10 years ago off of my kids ages. Well, not for me, but it was 10 years ago for everybody, because I know they just the 10 year thing. But for me, it was like seven

Alex Ferrari 15:25
When the Avengers came out, right?

Cobie Smulders 15:27
Yeah, exactly. And it was so exciting. Like, and quite frankly, I didn't know anything about the world. And my husband was more excited about the job than I was. I mean, I was very excited because it's something new and different for me that I didn't understand what it all meant. I didn't have a childhood connection, like a lot of people do. And, and it's been such a crazy journey, I mean, it. So we just like we just said, we just did the 10th anniversary, and that day where we get to sanity camp photo shoot, and like every actor, writer, director, producer, that had been involved for the 10 years, and just like looking around the room, I mean, I'm very, very mellow, and I'm very down to earth. And I'm not just saying that because you're interviewing me, but I don't ever consider I'm like, What am I doing in here? What am I doing why I feel like I've accidentally won. And I just don't, I'm in the wrong place, they're gonna get, they're gonna, they're gonna kick down, I'm gonna keep my head down until somebody realizes what an imposter I am. Right? It was like, she, she's not, but it's like, it's kind of the perfect outside role where I've been upon that. But I've also been, you know, on the outside to watching it develop and being able to be a fan as much and not be like it every day for the 146 days of shooting a movie. So I'm still excited about it, and not burned out by it. But it's wonderful. It's a wonderful job. And, and, and I'm just thrilled that that I that I get to now that I get to suit up every now and again.

Alex Ferrari 17:10
And I have to just two questions left of that ask all of my guests, what advice would you give an actor or filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Cobie Smulders 17:22
I think that it is, there is a change that's happening right now, which is speaking to what I'm about to say, which is, I think when I started out, I was pretending to be so many other things, like pretending what I thought you were supposed to be as an actor or pretending to not realizing that I had my own points. And I had my own story. And now I think just because the way the world is running, where it is so self focused, and everybody has a social media account, and they're constantly presenting their own story, it is gravitating towards that. But it is exciting to seeing seeing more diversity within that. And really getting to hear people's personal stories from other countries, from other religions from just other other sort of points of view that you what you hadn't been open to. But I think that that is the important thing is kind of doing what you love, and how you want to present that story to the world and make it personal. I think there is some sort of like, I think marketing gets in the way, maybe what I'm trying to say, you know, like, well, maybe if I make a horror movie, and it will make a million, you know, 100 million dollars don't get to make whatever movie I want. Like Yeah, but if you don't like to make horror movies, then you're gonna be miserable when you make horror movies, you know? So it's about sort of finding the story you want to tell and working my couch just to get it out there.

Alex Ferrari 18:52
And finally, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Cobie Smulders 19:00
Great question by the way. I think I feel like I'm constantly I tend to be my own worst enemy, and a lot of ways where I force things to happen, you know, where you go, okay. Well, I if I want this project, then I, I'll do this, I'll do that, which is it's wonderful to be proactive. But what I have learned is that, I don't know if there's any sort of preordained path for all of us, but I do think that there is synchronicity. And I do believe that like, if you were to do that role, that it will come to you and some things just happen easier. And that's sort of what's meant to be anytime I find myself like pushing to make something happen or what I do a lot of the times I I help too much, it ends up like making things worse. Instead of just like being calm, and chill, and just let it happen, you know So I've had to, to to learn patience. But it's the it's the balance between being patient and patient and proactive that I've that I've had to really, really dial it.

Alex Ferrari 20:14
Cobie, thank you so, so much for being on the show, It was an honor to speak to you

Cobie Smulders 20:20
It's fun to talk to you too.

Alex Ferrari 20:22
And it was. I've been a big fan since 10. Since I Met Your Mother, and when I saw you show up on the Avengers, I'm like, that's awesome. So

Cobie Smulders 20:31
Thank you so much. It was It was lovely to speak with you too. Thanks for talking about our little movie.

Alex Ferrari 20:37
No worries. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Colbie. She is just a saint. I love her to death. She's She's wonderful and she was so kind and giving in our interview. So thank you Cobie, so much for taking the time out, and for giving us the actor's perspective on shooting a movie, an indie movie in five days, which is totally improv. So thank you again. If you want links to anything we spoke about in the episode, please head over to indiefilmhustle.com/263 for the show notes and the movie that we've been talking about all right now will be available September 9, on VOD, on iTunes on Amazon on VUDU, Fandango, and everywhere else you would like to purchase your or rent your films. So thank you again, Cobie. And as I teased earlier, the director of all right now, Jamie Adams is going to be on the show on Thursday. And we had an amazing interview about his process of shooting, shooting improv kind of style movies, the way he does it, how he works with actors, how he pitches, the actors, how he got Cobie Smulders to be in his movie, and all this stuff. He's done about four or five of them, I think, at this point, and has become his style of filmmaking. And I'll tell you from someone who's done two movies like this, I really do like it as well. I really, really do. And I think it's a wonderful way of making films. So check that out on Thursday, guys, and as always, keep that also going, keep that dream alive and I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 257: Complete Guide to Understanding Film and Production Equipment Insurance

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Understanding the minefield that film production and production equipment insurance is a challenge.  I wanted to bring on the show Kathrine Wong and Aylene Villarin from  Athos Insurance to left the vail on all things filmmaking insurance. Now I know what you are saying,

…a podcast about insurance, snore!

but to be honest it’s a fun episode with tons of knowledge bombs.

Enjoy my conversation with Kathrine Wong and Aylene Villarin from Athos Insurance.

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Alex Ferrari 1:49
Now guys today on the show, we're going to talk about one of the most exciting topics in all filmmaking, film in production equipment insurance. But I wanted to have our guest today, Kathrine Wong and Aylene Villarin from Athos insurance to come on the show and talk about insurance about equipment insurance, when you're renting gear to workman's comp to actual yearly policies versus monthly policies or just project policies. You know, when I did on the corner of ego and desire, I actually use their services for the equipment and some other insurance that we needed for the shoot. And I wanted to kind of, you know, talk about it a little bit, because it's something that no one talks about, because it isn't the most exciting thing in the world to talk about. But when you don't have it, it can cost you 10s of 1000s of dollars. So as filmmakers and as entrepreneurs, you need to protect yourself and understand the world of insurance, especially in the indie world. And it's not as expensive as you might think. Now, full disclosure, I am not getting paid a single cent, nor was I given any special deals or Athos for them having them on the show. I actually reached out to them. And I wanted to put them on the show, because I think it's something that that no one talks about. There's not many podcast episodes dedicated to production insurance, and equipment insurance. So I wanted to have cat and Aylene on to kind of demystify what insurance is and what we can do to make sure we're covered and protected when making our independent films even on a micro budget. So without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Kathrine Wong and Aylene Villarin. And from Athos insurance. I like to welcome to the show, Kathrine Wong and Aylene Villarin from Athos Insurance Services. Thank you so much for jumping on guys.

Kathrine Wong 3:39
Yeah, nice to be here.

Aylene Villarin 3:41
Thank you for having us.

Alex Ferrari 3:42
It's been we've been trying to do this for a while. We're finally we're finally here. And it is you know, I wanted to have you guys on because, you know insurance as I was telling you earlier, not the sexiest part of the whole filmmaking process. But if you don't have it, it becomes one of the most nightmare. Most nightmares that you can deal with is not proper insurance, and not understanding insurance and an understanding the power of it, what to do what to get what not to get on low budgets on big budgets, all sorts of things, especially on indie, an indie world, I thought it was very important. Have you guys on the kind of demystify production assurance and insurance in general, for the indie film tribe. So thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, happy to be here. So how did you guys get into the wacky world of insurance?

Kathrine Wong 4:32
Ooh, that's a good question. Well, I'll try to make it brief. But I basically got into it by mistake. And that's how a lot of us get into it is. So I basically, when I was at UCLA, I, you know, I worked for an insurance firm. While I was going to college, and I got into it, I learned that people they said was a very lucrative industry. And I you know, I said, you know, I'm gonna give it a shot. And, you know, all of my friends were going to business school and I said, You know what, I know I have that degree, but I'm going to give insurance a try. And I can always do that later if I don't want to. And then I tried to sell insurance, and it was really tough. But I said, you know, I'm gonna try to do something that that's more niche. So I got into sports insurance, believe it or not, like skate park insurance. And then from that, I kind of just walked into more of the entertainment stuff, you know, like cameras production gear, through a really unique opportunity at one of the companies that I started at. And then from there, that's when I started to do gear rentals, insurance and production equipment. And yeah, and it was just like a really wonderful opportunity. And that's how I got into production insurance. And once you do a niche, it's like, it's a really wonderful, you know, great thing, because people are then looking for you. So right, it didn't matter that you know, I looked like a child. It was really cool. Cuz that was why it was really hard to sell insurance because I look so young. So but yeah, that's it's been really great for me. I'm very fortunate me and my family, we've, you know, definitely benefited from this career of mine. So, you know, we love doing it. And I love doing it.

Alex Ferrari 6:19
Yeah. So I used to be the youngest one in the room too. So enjoy it while you have. One day, I just turned around. I'm like, wait a minute, I'm not the youngest one in the room anymore. Damn. Dang it, what's going on? So you mean to tell me you didn't have like posters of IKEA, no policies up on your wall as nobody does. And if they do, and if they do, they're, they're psychotic and will probably kill someone at one point.

Aylene Villarin 6:48
So for me, I was actually in law school. So I had this, you know, this feature that I thought I was going to have and practicing law, and it wasn't what I expected. And so I took a little break. And my sister was like, Oh, you should try insurance, I heard it's a really good, you know, a really good path to go into. So I did. And I was for a while selling like employee benefits, which is, honestly, like, I love my coworkers at the time, but it was just not what I wanted to do. It was a little boring, I just was not excited about it. And I really contemplated going back to school. And then suddenly, you know, there was this opening in my company for, you know, their entertainment division. And so I was like, Okay, let me just try to get into that and see if I like a different kind of insurance. And so I did, and I it was, it was funny, because it was actually the exact same program that cat had developed. We didn't know each other at the time, but she had developed this program that basically ensured production equipment, and kind of revitalize that whole system. And so people kept talking to me about Cat Cat, this cat long, like, you guys, you know, you remind me of cat long, and I was just like, Who is this cat girl, like, she's not here anymore. Like, this is my show. Now. It was pretty funny. And then, so I ended up you know, kind of inheriting that program. And, you know, grew it back to its glory days. And then eventually Kat and I met and, I mean, honestly, it was such a lightbulb moment. And at the time, I just wasn't happy with the company that I was working with. But I knew that this was an exciting type of insurance that I was starting to become really passionate about. I love meeting the people that were in the industry, and I just grew a passion for it. And then she was a Hey, you know, I think you're doing really well. I'm starting this new company, would you join me? And I was like, Yes, let's do it. And it's a match made in heaven ever since and I'm so thankful for her I'm so thankful for Athos for giving me this opportunity. And we've just been able to grow this company together. And and yeah, every day is is an as an adventure and we enjoy it. We're not here without Eileen, she's my work wife.

Alex Ferrari 8:59
So So basically, you two crazy kids that, hey, we have a dream. And we're gonna make insurance for filmmakers. Kind of

Kathrine Wong 9:10
It's a very hard, you know, insurance is hard. I have to say it's very complicated. You know, especially, you know, if, if people are coming to try to get protection for themselves. It's hard when you don't even understand what it's saying. Right? So we're trying to kind of, you know, simplify things. We're trying to make sure that when they have insurance requirements that people are giving them that we're reading it and telling them, you know, verbatim This is what like you need and then if they're like, well, I don't have the money for it. We're gonna be like, Okay, well, if you don't want to pay for it, this is what you're risking. Okay, so are you ready for that?

Alex Ferrari 9:47
Yeah. Look, I knew that. I look ahead. I had that conversation with you in January. Yeah. As we were going out to go shoot on the corner of ego and desire and we had a lot of gear good and moving over to parks. ready to shoot the movie? And that was the one time I'm like, you know, I know we have because honestly, if it wasn't for you guys, I wouldn't had insurance. Because it because Athos was just so simple. And we'll get into more about Athos later. But it was it was a process and we had the conversations on the phone, we're like, well, I want this and you're like, well, this is what you need. I'm like, wow, too much money. And you're like, well, then you're risking this. I'm like, I'll risk it. And then you just but you make educated decisions. But before we get into that, what kind of insurance do filmmakers generally need for a standard? production?

Aylene Villarin 10:35
That's a good question. So I think the standard policies that typically people typically start with would be a general liability policy. And that would cover claims against third parties. So people that are not associated with your production, but maybe somehow, you're you know, you're found liable for their injuries. So an example would be, let's say, you're shooting outside in a park somewhere, and there's somebody with a little kid and they tripped and fell on like a cord that you had there, and they sued you for those injuries. That's what a general liability policy would defend you. Yeah. And most people, you know, they, they assume like, Oh, I have liability, and they think that means you're covered for everything. And that's where you have to be really careful, because liability doesn't cover your cast for injuries or crew for injuries. That's all covered by work comp. And that's the big one, you know, where people don't want to pay for that.

Alex Ferrari 11:33
We'll get into I have a whole series of questions about work. But generally speaking, so general liabilities is what a film production. So if I'm an indie filmmaker, I've got a $50,000 budget film. I'm going out there. I'm like, I just want some, I want some protection. General legalese is the starting point.

Kathrine Wong 11:51
This writing gear. Yeah, it's all that stuff. Yeah, afterwards. Sure. Okay.

Alex Ferrari 11:57
And then and then what's the difference between short term and annual insurance?

Kathrine Wong 12:02
Yeah, so short term insurance is usually just defined as one project. So it's, it's, you know, just one project. So you schedule that one feature, or, you know, one project, and the annual is multiple projects. So we're

Alex Ferrari 12:18
here. So like, one for like, a production company that's doing

Kathrine Wong 12:20
Yes. Yeah, multiple? And yes, a year long, you know, policy, and you have multiple things that you can cover under that.

Alex Ferrari 12:27
And then so basically, if you're, if you're, if you're planning to do a lot of commercials or music videos, or a lot of short films that you want coverage on, if you can afford it, an annual makes more sense, because in the long run be much, much more affordable than getting a bunch of short terms.

Kathrine Wong 12:40
Yeah, that's correct. And we usually work with our clients. Because even if you have, let's say, two or three that you know, you're going to have, it may not make sense for you to get an annual one because of that upfront costs. It's almost like a barrier to entry. Right? You have to be able to afford that cost. And some people don't know if they're going to have it or not, you know, if they're going to actually have those, you know, job or five jobs. Yeah, absolutely.

Alex Ferrari 13:06
Now, workman's comp, the lovely world of workman's comp, please explain what that is.

Kathrine Wong 13:15
Well, that really covers injuries to your casting crew. So production related injuries, I should say. So not just any kind, but right. So basically, if there's if they slipped and fell in your shoot, and now they have to go to the emergency room, or they have bills, the you know, the ambulance bill, things like that. That's what that would cover. So anytime people say, hey, I want you know, I have general liability that covers my, my casting crew and all the actors and all the, you know, the people that I'm hiring, and we're like, no, it doesn't actually. And so it's a very different kind of coverage than liability, if you want to think about it, liability is for everybody else that's not related to your production. And then work comp is essentially covering injuries to the people that you're actually bringing on to your project. And that is something that is something you should definitely get. It's a but it's again, a little bit more expensive, and something a lot of filmmakers and productions don't get correct. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely something that most people should get. And I say most because there are some, you know, exceptions that we've seen, in terms of California, though workers comp is a statutory requirement, which means that if you go to like a permit house permit office, and you know, you're trying to get permits to shoot at maybe like a public beach, they typically will require it. We've seen it get waived in very, I mean, it's not very common that they will waive it. So

Alex Ferrari 14:42
yeah, depending on it depending on the state that you're in or in the country, you're in for that matter. Right, what their requirements are for workman's comp. Well, I'll tell you, I mean, I was a PA when I was first starting out and I got rear ended by a car while I was delivering film to the lab and I I was I was covered. That mean my back's good. I was I was covered my insurance, my insurance was caught, everything was taken care of, because the production I had on how to workman's comp, if not very lucky, I was extremely lucky because I was, that was pretty bad back. So working stop is definitely something you should definitely look into. Now, what kind of insurance should you get for equipment?

Kathrine Wong 15:21
That's a great question. So yeah, and I think that's a really good question. Because there's, you know, you're gonna be renting a lot of equipment right when you're doing a shoot. So there's the gear that you're going to rent from the production rental houses, so you want to make sure you're covering all of that gear. And then also, if you're hiring DPS, you want to make sure even though they have coverage for their own gear, you're technically hiring these DPS as well. So you also want to make sure you're covering the value of the DPS equipment as well in the rented equipment. So that's usually what we also include in the rented equipment coverage.

Alex Ferrari 16:01
The how to film insurance deductibles work.

Aylene Villarin 16:05
Um, okay, so it depends on what kind of policy we're talking about to simplify. I guess we can talk about the equipment,

Alex Ferrari 16:12
the equipment that will do general liability.

Aylene Villarin 16:15
Sure. Okay. So, for equipment, essentially, a deductible is what you're responsible for, if a claim happens, so let's say you know, you have a $10,000 piece of gear that you rented from a rental house, and let's say your deductible, for simplicity's sake is $1,000. Now when you go through the claims process, there's an adjuster, they'll kind of figure out, hey, how much is this gear worth? And through that whole process? They let's say they find out okay, it is worth $10,000. So the deductible would be deducted from the final settlement amount. So let's say it's 10,000 minus the $1,000 deductible, the claim check payment to you will be 9000.

Alex Ferrari 16:58
And then you have to pay the claim.

Aylene Villarin 17:00
No, so the claim amount, so the insurance carrier will then cut you a check for 9000? Because it's 10,000 minus the $1,000. deductible.

Alex Ferrari 17:10
Yeah, and same same situation for general liability, if there's a claim, they're going to deduct whatever that is, whatever the deductible is. And then and then depending on the deductible, it could be cheaper or more expensive. The policy.

Aylene Villarin 17:22
Yeah, I mean, that's right. Yeah. And some general liability policies actually don't have deductibles. And so those are, those tend to be like the richer type of plans. So that does exist, where there's a policy and there's no out of pocket cost to you. So those policies do exist.

Alex Ferrari 17:37
Now, I'm sure in your day, I know it's impossible to believe, but have there been false claims? Ever? You mean to tell me that there are filmmakers out there who will lie to get money from an insurance company? Oh, yeah, for sure. There's a lot of fraud that happened. So tell me so tell me what you guys don't give away? Obviously, the the secret sauce, but what do you guys do? And how can you smell when something is? Well, cuz, I mean, obviously, look, I'm driving, let's say I'll use my movie. As an example. We're driving to Utah. We parked on a gas station, we go inside to get something when we come out, the windows busted. And our cameras gone. And let's say we had an $80,000 Alexa sitting back there. Oh, man, you know, like it, you know, they just they knew exactly what it wasn't. They grab it and they take off. Right? That could be shady. Or that could be real. How do you know the difference? And how does that work? Yeah,

Kathrine Wong 18:39
that's a really good question. So we actually have an amazing claims team. On the insurance carrier side, they have really good I mean, they can smell it, they will ask all sorts of questions. So like, even in your example, right there, you said you went to a gas station, right to get the footage from the gas station. Okay. Right. Okay, to verify what just happened, how that happened, was there really a break, you know, break in, you know, just to verify the time that someone actually broke in. So just to kind of, you know, verify the location in the time that it actually existed. Now, if all of a sudden there is nothing to justify that, then they kind of need to hire what we call a Special Investigations Unit, you know,

Alex Ferrari 19:29
especially something like that. 80,000 Yeah, I've got a $5,000 claim $2,000 claim with a lot of money.

Kathrine Wong 19:35
Yeah, right. Right. So you know, and we add Athos we have our own investigative team. So we do a lot on our own as well. We have our own secret sauce that

Alex Ferrari 19:49
you you have a way to see if it passes the smell test. Yeah, on the front end now. So on the front,

Kathrine Wong 19:56
before you bring in the heavy hitters, right that's Yeah, yeah. And I have to say that the amount of fraud has so I mean, it has gone up. Yeah, it's crazy. It's sad.

Alex Ferrari 20:08
I don't know, if someone's caught doing that what happens?

Aylene Villarin 20:14
I mean, they can get in a lot of trouble. I mean, insurance fraud is a very real thing. They can get prosecuted. We've had people go to jail for it. Yeah, we actually have a connection with the FBI. So, you know, we've turned it goes, it goes to the

Alex Ferrari 20:27
goes to the FBI doesn't go to the sheriff. No, no, no. Yeah. of it. Yeah. Wow. So everyone listening is some serious though. It's some serious stuff. It's nothing to play around with. Okay, this will be cool. We'll just tell them that it got stolen yet. No.

Aylene Villarin 20:47
No, it's not a good and honestly, sometimes it's like common sense, like people are, can be kind of sloppy when they're committing fraud. Now, criminals are sloppy. Like one example that happened recently was this guy was like, Oh, I was shooting over a bridge. And my camera fell into the bridge and into the water below, and I can't retrieve it. Now let's file a claim. So we had an investigator check, you know, okay, well, where's this bridge? Like, where's this creek below? And then come to find out through the investigation that, you know, it was a very kind of hot day. And so the, the, the gear, the camera that fell in the water, it probably fell in like, two inches of water, because it was the creek was kind of drying up at that time of year. And so they're like, You mean to tell me it was like swallowed up by this to, you know, feet of water. And he was like, I never it wasn't there. And so you know, things like that, where it's like, Okay, I think if your camera fell in there, you could have retrieved it. You could have shown us, hey, look at this damaged camera. And so things like that, where it's like, oh, I This smells a little fishy. So we do get a lot of those.

Alex Ferrari 22:00
Yeah, that's, that's ridiculous. I'm sure. I'm sure I'm sure you get. I'm sure you have hundreds of stories like that. Oh, yeah. Go on. Because cuz I you know, I know my people and filmmaker, sometimes. I've met I've met many, many. Now, the one one insurance, that's always a little bit, it kind of catches you off guard, especially filmmakers is E and O insurance or arrow era and omissions insurance. Can you please demystify what that is? And the necessity of it if you're planning to sell your movie to a traditional distributor?

Kathrine Wong 22:38
Yeah, so that's a really good question. So usually, for errors and omissions, it's something that you're going to have to get if your film gets picked up by a distributor. So So technically, you don't really need it until you're, you know, you're getting picked up. So what that's going to cover is, you know, the content of the film. So traditionally, you would have, you know, a clearance attorney, kind of review all the stuff that you've put into the film, you know, did did the Coca Cola can get clear, did you get the licensing? Did you you know, did you get permission to use all those things, so that you don't get, you know, hit with a lawsuit after you release it, you know, publicly. So that's really what you know, that insurance is there for. And so that's what you really need, and all the things in your contract are going to lay out the terms of that insurance. So when we get you know, when people ask us for, you know, insurance, we review those contracts really, really thoroughly to make sure it meets all the demands of the distribution agreement. And then that's when we help set it up for our clients. And again, it's it all depends cuz I know a lot of people freak out about things in the movies like oh my god, there's a cocaine on the on the counter. And like, as long as the cocaine has not killed somebody, or you're doing something erratic with that coke can, arguably, it's

Alex Ferrari 24:02
okay to have it in there. But it depends on the scene. It's like a gray area. And this is from my experience over 20 years of doing this and I've had this conversation many times with, with no people and with distributors. You know, if someone's wearing a T shirt, I'm like, Well, if there's a logo on that T shirt, is it is it clear? Is it not clear? Do you know? Are we gonna have to go in with VFX and clean it out? You know things like that. It's a it's a weird thing. It's a weird thing, but if you don't get you know, insurance, and by the way, a lot of times too I hear that and it happened to me that the distributor will pay for it that they'll deal with the air now and insurance if they want the movies like one of our movies that we did that's exactly what they did because we're very low budget movie they're like oh, we'll take the you know insurance. Yeah, yeah, but but a lot of times it's if you don't go out with let's say you self distribute a movie with a lot of filmmakers listening right now are self distributing their their shows or their, their independent movies or things like that. If they don't have No insurance, no insurance just there basically to protect them from a lawsuit from Coca Cola or from Apple, because you use an iPhone on there. Yeah. Correct. Is that basically what is therefore?

Kathrine Wong 25:12
Yes, yeah, that's correct. But I think also, even the insurance carriers won't even give that policy unless there's also been like a clearance attorney that's also reviewed all the content. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So as long as that's all happened, then yeah, that's, that's really what needs to happen.

Alex Ferrari 25:29
This is the fun stuff of filmmaking. I'm telling you, this is exciting stuff. And that's a funny thing is that filmmakers will go they'll spend $500,000 on their movie a million dollars on their movie. And if I've seen it happen, that they'd like, what is E and O insurance? I'm like, Are you kidding me? Someone gave you a million dollars. And you guys don't know what insurances?

Kathrine Wong 25:50
I know. And that's, you know, and that's the sad part. And we're always the last part, and they always rush us at the very end, because they're, it's like the one part they don't want to think about, or the one part they didn't, you know, want to budget for, I guess, oh, yeah. You know, and that's fine. You know, we're used to it now. But I think it's also very important that they also spend the time and respect the process of, you know, the insurance part because we're also equally important. You know, you're talking

Alex Ferrari 26:21
to what you're talking to a post guy, are you kidding me? They, like you're behind me, and they run out of money with me, let alone. They're telling me like, Look, we have no money for color or editorial. Like, I'm sorry, I can't help you. Look, the girls down the block you're going to talk to in about six months are really going to give you a hard time.

Aylene Villarin 26:41
Yeah, and I think for us, it really starts with education. I mean, we work with a lot of film students. And I, you know, I'm not sure I've never been to film school. So I don't know, but how much focus they actually give on in terms of insurance on educating students. And so yeah, we've heard none. Honestly, I think every school is a little different. But the at least the students that we work with, they're just like, what is this? You mean? What do you mean it cost this much? I only have $50 for insurance? And we're like, $50? What are you covering a pen? Exactly. We're like, Oh, no, you're gonna need more than that. So even just help with budgeting, you know, to learn how much to budget for insurance. I think that's like the type of education that I know we like to give to at least our clients. And most of the time, they tend to be students.

Alex Ferrari 27:30
There is no information about it at schools, there's no information because at the end of the day, it's not. I've said it a couple times in this in this interview, it's not sexy. It's not the fun stuff, not you know, what's also not fun, like, understanding how to construct a proper story. Like people don't take the time to learn their craft. They're like, I just want the new gear. I just want that because I want the fun. It's much more fun to talk about camera lenses and cameras, as opposed to, I got to sit down and talk about story structure and character arc, Oh, God, I just want to go have some fun, and little Loan Insurance. So there's just not none of that information out there. And that's one of the reasons why I wanted to do this interview with you guys. Yeah. With that now, and what should you look for when hiring an insurance broker?

Aylene Villarin 28:16
Oh, that's a really good question. I mean, I definitely think it's great to call a bunch of different brokers. And, you know, give them the scenarios that you're concerned with, like, for example, if you're a camera operator, and you do a lot of underwater filming, definitely ask those questions like, is this policy that I'm going to get? Is it going to cover if I'm on a boat? Is it going to cover the gear if I accidentally, you know, damage it? while it's being you know, it's filming underwater? I mean, ask the scenarios that matter to you, I would say, and then, you know, you can kind of gauge or a good broker, they'll be either, you know, maybe they're annoyed of all the different questions that you're asking. But at the end of the day, it's our job as brokers to make you feel comfortable with the product that you're purchasing. So can I have sat there for even just the other day, I was on the phone for like, over half an hour going through different scenarios with this person. And, you know, and I think, whenever you're looking for a broker, you want to make sure that one they understand your business, exactly what it is that you do, whether you do weddings, or movies or commercials, whatever it may be, and their policy that they're offering, you is actually going to cater to the type of work that you do. And it may take a phone call or two to do that. But yeah, it's important to interview the brokers. Yeah, interview them. And then it's also good to see how fast their response time is. Because at the end of the day, if you need something after you've already given them your business, you want to see how fast they respond to you. Because Yeah, it's great when you give them their money, but what happens after when you actually need something, yeah, the servicing aspect of it is We're very big on that we have a really good team here that really focuses on customer service.

Alex Ferrari 30:07
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Aylene Villarin 30:18
We're always picking up the phones, we have chat that's on the website, if you don't want to call, you know, we really try to make our platforms accessible to everybody. You know, it's mobile friendly, our website, things like that, that just really help you know, we know that you guys are on the go, we know that you don't have a lot of time to deal with insurance. So whatever we can do to help the process is, is only beneficial for everybody. So

Alex Ferrari 30:42
So you're telling me that if I'm going after car insurance, don't buy it from the strip mall for the guy who's also selling, selling Mexican food and sushi and smoothies?

Kathrine Wong 30:53
Probably whatever works for you have to get a good feeling. Yeah, and I mean, I, you know, I'm gonna say to you at this is, you know, we're also changing too, you know, so you also have to find a broker who is also ethical and humble as well to, to be willing to, you know, talk to you and also say, Oh, yeah, no, I'm sorry. Yeah, no, you're right. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna fix that if there is a misunderstanding somewhere. So, yeah, you don't want a broker that goes, Oh, I I knew that. Exactly what you want a really good, it's almost like a good business partner. So I think so anybody, right, so. So that's kind of what we like to how we are here, you know, we're not going to always know the answers, but we'll try our best to get back to you. So that's how we do things.

Alex Ferrari 31:40
The one thing I loved about working with you guys is that and by the way, everyone listening, I did not get paid for this, these guys and girls did not pay as this is not a sponsored thing. I just did it because I like what they're doing and how they're doing it. And I think it provides value to it to everyone listening, so just want to make complete disclosure. But the reason why I love working with you guys is one the ease because insurance getting production shows was such a, just a pain in the ass, you have to go through all these barbaric systems and, and it was just like a paperwork and paperwork, it was just so hard. And I'm like in today's world, there has to be another option. And then I was introduced to you guys by brands from share grid, that you guys also ensure share grid. And when I saw your website, and I saw how easy it was, I'm like, next time I have a production, I'm gonna use you guys and test it out. And I did and I walked through it. And I called you guys and you were very patient with me. Thank you because I call back like at least 20 times. It's not working. Catherine what's going on the button, Alex, that button right there. I don't understand what. So you were very you were very, very kind with your time. For not a huge policy. By the way, it wasn't like you were getting rich off this policy. But, but it was so easy to use. It was so streamlined. I got the insurance certificates right away, and it was just done. And I sent them off to my, my equipment insurance. So I sent that off to my my crew who was bringing gear and everyone was covered. And it was just wonderful. It was a really wonderful experience. So that's also one of the reasons why I want to shine a light on what you guys were doing.

Kathrine Wong 33:20
Yeah, that makes us happy to hear. And, and yeah, and you know, we're always trying to improve our systems too. So, you know, we are a growing company. And we are also improving our website too, so that that website will get easier to click.

Alex Ferrari 33:35
Absolutely. Now I have a couple more questions. When do you When should you add a specialty policy like for Pyro or stun? So yeah, animals, weapons on set, things like that?

Aylene Villarin 33:47
Um, yeah, that's a really good question again. Um, so I mean, anything that's really considered a stunt or a hazardous activity should really be disclosed on the application. So you know, for example, a sign is like, something that you know, like a fight scene, for example, that's considered a stunt or if you have like a, like a weapon that you're using, that's considered a stunt. Anytime you're going near in the water, for example, that would be a stunt. So anything that's not just like you're shooting somebody without any thing. Yeah, like a monologue, right? A sit down interview or something like that. I think you should definitely be disclosed on the application right away. Because I think sometimes like people in industry tend to think oh, yeah, no, that's not a sign that we don't consider that a sign. Cool. Well, the insurance carriers a little bit different. So they consider something stunts, whereas the industry folks may not so it's a fine line. So I think like foreign productions, too, for sure. Yeah. Anytime you're filming outside.

Alex Ferrari 34:49
Now, so basically, if and I know this happens all the time, and so if someone gets a policy general liability policy, and they didn't happen to disclose it, there was going to be a lion on set that day. Now, all of a sudden or even that's an extreme case, but even the head of dog onset and that dog bites somebody. Yikes, then you're gonna be sorry. You're not covered. Base. Yeah.

Kathrine Wong 35:13
Because that's, you know, you basically didn't disclose it. So

Alex Ferrari 35:19
now if a dog happens to wander in, it's not part of the production. That's a different conversation. I mean, we can we can go into debates forever.

Aylene Villarin 35:24
That's, that's different. Yeah, that's different. Actually. That happened not too long ago, we had a client they did this close it though that they had a dog. And then yeah, that dog ended up biting one of I think it was like a crew member. But lucky for them, they had work comp, under their payroll companies. So that's another another resources. Sometimes when you hire a payroll company, an entertainment payroll company, they can offer workers comp. Yep. And so they got lucky. So that person was covered. So very cool.

Alex Ferrari 35:57
Now, I'm gonna ask you, what is the craziest claim you've ever received? Oh, gosh, craziest claim? Like, did you like you can't if you sat there going, this can't be real.

Aylene Villarin 36:08
Okay, so I have one. Wow, that was quick. That was claims. I don't even know if it's like the craziest but the one that that's like the recent craziest, I think was like a head scratcher was, somebody had, like, cut out a hole, like it was like, it's almost like a fist sized hole in the door. And it was like a perfect circle. And they claimed that somebody had like, cut this perfect circle on the door, and like, reached in and opened the knob to their door and like stole all this gear. And so we had an investigator go in there. And they're like, how do you know, is the hole even big enough for an arm? Like, can the arm go all the way into reach the knob and they like measured it and everything. It was just so bizarre. And there were some disagreements because some of the investigators were like, No, I have to like, like, tear my arm off or something to reach it. And they're like, well, what if it's a guy that has a very long arm, like, episode of like,

Alex Ferrari 37:15
I mean, is the Murder She Wrote? Yeah, he's like monkeys. And so I have a man with one arm, the man with one arm did it.

Aylene Villarin 37:27
And so you get these bizarre claims. And you know, a lot of people are involved in it, because, you know, people have differences of opinion. And, you know, do we is this business person have, you know, a history within the industry? Like, are they? Do they have a good reputation, like all that stuff kind of comes into play? Whenever there's a claim like this, where it can kind of go either way. And obviously, we're going to, we're always going to try as much as possible to believe our insurance, right? We're not out to be like, aha, you're a criminal. Like, that's not our, you know, our outlook, we're always going to assume, hey, if you're going to file a claim, this is, you know, in good conscience in good faith, then we're going to cover it right. So innocent until proven guilty. Exactly. And we really do work that way. I mean, we're our clients, best advocate. Like we're not in the business of denying claims. I know people have kind of a mistrust when it comes to insurance. But can I always say, you know, if we don't pay claims are our business is done like we're not here to hit up? I think we paid like millions of dollars in claims. Oh, yes. And so as much as possible, we're going to try to advocate for our client and say, Hey, you know what, yes, if there's an arm out in the world long enough to reach that knob, then you guys have actually paid it. Yeah, really.

Alex Ferrari 38:46
But, but it was, but it kind of it kind of stuck a little bit. You could smell the smell. The smell was a

Kathrine Wong 38:52
little rancid. It was a lot of gear, and we had to make sure it wasn't staged. Right. So you have to prove that that is really something that couldn't happen. So it was it was definitely a page turner. I mean, are not patient or your scratch. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 39:07
Well, you know, I wouldn't know but that's just it just sounds fishy from this picture. Yeah, you should see that. Perfect. Done. So in other words, someone actually sat there drew a circle made a perfect circle. Yeah, got it out. And they're like, this is going to be genius. And apparently it worked. Well, you know what I always believe in karma. So yes, it karma karma will get you one way or another. So you know, if you do it now, you'll get you'll get something down the line? No question. So I have a few questions. I asked all of my guests. Can you tell me which book had the biggest impact on your life or career?

Aylene Villarin 39:47
Oh, um, I can go first. I think my goal my favorite author of all time is Paulo Coelho. So love my Yeah, I think for me like a life changing book. How To be the alchemists. I mean, I go back to that book every now and then and I swear I I read something different that I haven't read. And it's just a different journey every time we read it. So I always go back to that book for sure. So book. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah. For me, it's got to be a girl bus. Girl.

Alex Ferrari 40:24
Typical, little on the nose, a little on the nose. I'll just say it's a little. I love it. I actually saw the series on Netflix. That's the only reason I know about that book. Oh, yeah. I saw the series on Netflix. Got one season, but I really enjoyed it. It was just this really great story about how you pulled yourself up from your bootstraps and the bowl company. So what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or the insurance industry or the life? Oh, gosh, that's a good question. While we're getting real now. Oh, no, this is like Oprah style. So get ready.

Kathrine Wong 40:58
My gosh, are you are you reading this to us or to your listeners? to you guys? To learn, um, that's a good one, the longest to learn. Um, I think for me, it's probably that like, the world keeps turning like, it just goes on. Like, if you're having like, a bad day at work, or, you know, there's something that you're just like, for me, like, I get kind of obsessed with things. And so like, if I, if someone comes to me, and they're like, Oh, I want this type of insurance, and it like does not exist, it really bothers me. And so I know, kind of a nerd. But you know, those sorts solving problems? And sometimes the answer is no, the answer is it's not insurable. Or the answer is just, we can't do it for whatever reason. And it kind of kills me a little bit. But I think at the end of the day, I have to remember that the world keeps turning, and it just keeps going on. And there's another day tomorrow, and that's tough sometimes. Yeah, mine is very similar to that. But it's basically like, no matter how bad things get, or how low things seem, it will always get better, no matter how it is. It's just like, we've gone through that at Athens here. It's like, there are moments here when I mean, and I would look at each other and go, how are we gonna? How are we gonna make, you know, pains. You know, we've had just like, times when it would just, it would grow so fast that it would just seem like, just like we couldn't handle handle it. And and you know, we would just just a miracle would walk in with the door with a great new employee or something. And then you know, it's just some Oh, something always works out. And I always love that just so trust each other, and just something will always pull us through. And I always, just always love that. And you can always trust each other as long as we all just keep working together and just keep plowing forward. That is always the biggest lesson is just to keep moving forward. For sure.

Alex Ferrari 43:07
Now, this is the toughest question. What are what are the three favorite films of all time?

Kathrine Wong 43:12
Oh, I got it. This is so like, I don't I'm so embarrassed. It's my favorite film of all time is still Titanic.

Alex Ferrari 43:23
Because your heart will go on your heart will go on.

Kathrine Wong 43:27
Jurassic Park. Okay, that was my childhood favorite. Sure. What's my third one? Okay, this is a really cheesy one. But it's, it's like this show. I don't even know if it was in the theater. It's called Mrs. Eris goes to Paris.

Alex Ferrari 43:44
Wow, never heard that one.

Kathrine Wong 43:45
And Angela Lansbury was like my childhood. Like, you know, I loved it. That's Angela Lansbury. Anyways, those are my three.

Aylene Villarin 43:55
Mad okay. So mine would have to be the Godfather. I love all of them though. So it's hard to pick. And then three of you even like even like three. I do like three. Three is a tough one. But you have to have three though.

Alex Ferrari 44:11
You can have two, though. I would argue that godfather one and two is one movie. And it was good enough to hold but

Aylene Villarin 44:22
I don't know. I think three is has to be there too. I mean, it's not my favorite, but I think you have to have it um, and then beaches that I love. I like cheese that my sister and I liked and watched it like 12 times and sat and cried. So beaches and then the other one has to be clueless. I just I know it's every single word in that movie and can quote it every time I watch it. I have to stop and watch it if it's on TV.

Alex Ferrari 44:54
When I was when I was in high school, I was working out of a video store and the movie that I rented out I constantly was beaches. Like I would sell it not me personally, I would rent it to my my I saw I saw it I teared up I moved on, but but I would recommend it constantly to people who would come in and people would just balling. Yeah. And then if I really didn't like them, I put Steel Magnolias right next to it. Oh, that's a good one. Yeah, I put both those movies in just like if you don't cry somewhere. You're dead inside. Yeah. Oh, man. Great. Amazing. Now, where can people find Athos?

Kathrine Wong 45:35
Our website is www.Athosinsurance all spelled out .com?

Alex Ferrari 45:42
And do you have social media? 2018 Guys, 2018 Guys, 2018. We got to work on that.

Kathrine Wong 45:52
I know. We are we are working on that. Actually. We just hired on someone to help with that. Yeah, we have a Facebook page.

Alex Ferrari 46:01
Okay. I'll put a link of it. I'll put a link to it in the show notes. Don't worry. I'm just yeah, I'm just I'm just busting your balls, guys. Don't worry about it. I seriously like it. Like, you know, what kind of Instagram would with an insurance company have like shots of like policies? Or claims? It's It's It's tough. It's tough. Yeah. But I have I have some ideas I can give you later. So guys, thank you so much for dropping all these knowledge bombs on the tribe today. It's been educational, and I hope it helps. At least one if it helps one filmmaker in the world. It was worth it.

Kathrine Wong 46:33
Yes. Yeah. That's all we want. We just want to help people ultimately.

Aylene Villarin 46:37
Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 46:38
Thanks, guys. I want to thank Aylene and Kath for being on the show. Thank you for dropping those knowledge bombs about something that we all need in life insurance. And again, this might not be an episode you're going to listen to right away. But you should definitely bookmark it when you are about to start production, when you're about to get into pre production, and revisit this episode, just so you kind of put that stuff back in your head, it's really good to understand what you need and what you don't need. Because a lot of times when you're on a small budget film, sometimes the the production manager or the producers will start adding all sorts of unneeded insurance on the bill. And if you know a little bit more about what you need and what you don't need, you can speak intelligently about insurance and save yourself a ton of cash. And then by the way, guys, I did use Athos insurance on the corner of Eagle desire and it was seamless, so easy. So just not cumbersome. Like the olden days of getting insurance. Did it all online. I had any questions, I called them up and they got on the phone and walked me through things that telling me what I needed, what I didn't need and so on answering all sorts of questions. So it was really, really great. So definitely check them out. Athos insurance.com and if you want to get links to anything else we talked about in this episode, just head over to indiefilmhustle.com/257. And as always keep that also going keep that dream alive and I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 254: What Does a First Assistant Director Really Do? with Brandon Riley

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What does a First Assistant Director actually do on set? Do you need one? The short answer is YES! I’ve directed with no First Assistant Directors, with bad 1st Assistant Directors, and with world-class First ADs and trust me I rather work with the latter. Today’s guest is First Assistant Director, Brandon Riley.

Brandon started out in the entertainment industry working as an Assistant Director and later joined the DGA. With a vast knowledge of how a set operates and functions, Brandon has since gone on to produce, line produce and UPM features and TV projects. Brandon is a natural-born leader who aims to lead every show in a calm-assertive manner. He prides himself in aiming to create an environment where both cast and crew are treated well and have an enjoyable experience on set.  Brandon is one who continually tries to bring the best out in others and always pushes for excellence in every area. He has a passion for problem-solving and is an invaluable team player.

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Alex Ferrari 0:04
Now today on the show, we have Brandon Riley was a first assistant director and wanted to have him on the show because wanted to kind of put a spotlight on first assistant directors and their importance and how to do it properly. We discuss how not to do it properly. And sometimes you need them, sometimes you don't. But if you can afford it, you should always have one, because they are wonderful and very helpful if you've got the right one. And I've shot with with first IDs without first IDs with good first ACS with bad first IDs and with legendary first IDs. So if you can afford it, definitely use one. So Brandon, I get into the weeds about what a first ad really does, how to do the job. And if you're interested if you're listening out there, and this might be interesting to you to become a first ad and how becoming a first ad can get you into the Directors Guild, which hopefully maybe lead you into other work down the line. It's a very interesting conversation. So without any further ado, please enjoy my talk with Brandon Riley. I'd like to welcome to the show. Brandon Riley. Man, thank you so much for jumping on the show with me, man.

Brandon Riley 3:06
Thanks. Glad to be here.

Alex Ferrari 3:07
We've never had a first ad on the show. So I am going to beat you up on how to do it properly. Because I've been with too many don't do it properly.

Brandon Riley 3:16
Hope I can help.

Alex Ferrari 3:17
No worries, man. So how did you get into the film business in the first place?

Brandon Riley 3:21
Well, you know, it's a funny story. When I was seven years old, I met a famous film producer. He was a son of Michael illage, who owns Little Caesars pizza. And I told my dad is like, I want to be a film producer too. And my dad was like, Sure you can do that. And so you know, in the back of my mind, I was thinking I can do this, you know, and and you know, you know, Junior High in high school, I got involved in journalism, I really became obsessed with story and, and telling stories and taking pictures. And that was something that interested in me. So filmmaking was this natural thing that I was, you know, obsessed about? You know, when I went to film school, did the typical thing kind of regretted it and kind of didn't, you know, I don't know if it was helpful. You know, because I feel like I can more and more in a film set and then I can three years film school?

Alex Ferrari 4:20
I would I would. Honestly, I would agree with you. I went to film school too. And everything I learned, you know what I learned in film school how to wrap a cable. Right? That was really important.

Brandon Riley 4:31
Yeah, I mean, the thing about film school you learn is his writing, I think and that's, that's helped me today because and how to think, you know, I study philosophy as well. And, you know, I'm working on helping people with scripts and different things like that. And I think that's one thing. It's hard to pick up, you know. So yeah, I did the film school thing, and then I worked. You know, the videographers for several years. Just doing lots of random videos. Corporate corporate videos, commercials, all types of things. But I was wearing a lot of hats. You know, I was like writing and shooting and editing and, and, you know, mostly editing and hating that. And, you know, spending, you know, 12 hours in a darkroom. So I was like, I need to move to LA. So that's what I did. So I saved up some money, moved to LA. And, and, and I couldn't find a job couldn't get anything really, you know. And so I started driving cars and as a valet driver, and that's what you want to do after film school is drive cars,

Alex Ferrari 5:42
Because that's gonna help you pay back debt. Quick.

Brandon Riley 5:45
Right, Exactly. So but then I got my first break, working for free on a TV pilot as a grip.

Alex Ferrari 5:52
I love that. I love that you just said I got my big break working for free.

Brandon Riley 5:56
Yeah, so that was the big break because I was working for free as a grip, right. And I did that for half a day before they realized that I sucked at a grip, but they needed somebody in the camera department. And so I was like, I can do that. Because I did that a little bit in college because I used to think I wanted to be a dp. And so so I did that camera, AC thing. And after that, so working for free, I got like, you know, paid jobs, right. And the paid jobs paid a lot of money like 50 bucks a day,

Alex Ferrari 6:25
Holy cow! what are you going to do all that cash, and some tax agents.

Brandon Riley 6:30
So I'm continuing to like valet drive and work $50 a day on all these films as a camera, AC. And then the actually my big break came was the DP that I was working as an AC from. She was married to a producer, and he was about to produce some indie horror film. And, and I somehow convinced him to let me first ad his movie, right? And, and I'd never first ad before I'd never second ad before, I'd never really been a PA on a set. But he believed in me. And so it was great. So the movie was a six day shoot. Yeah, we shot a movie in six days. So it's very challenging, you know, I was wearing 45. So it's probably one second, my alarm is going off for some reason. So yeah, wearing 45 hats, you know, we're shooting like 12 pages a day it was it was nuts. But that's what where I got my first big break. I feel like because after that, I got the second job and the third job and the fourth job. And so then I've been working as an ad for many years, and I gotten to the Directors Guild. And then I started producing. Now I'm in The Producers Guild. And so, you know, I'm also trying to develop my own projects, and, you know, work with other people writing scripts and doing that. And so that's kind of my journey. In a nutshell.

Alex Ferrari 8:01
Well, you, like I was telling you before, when we were off air, I was telling you that you are the definition of hustle. I mean, if you go to his IMDb guys, and I'll put it in the show notes. It's insane. Like he's just like constantly working. It was it was pretty remarkable. And all the other stuff that you do on the side, as well. You definitely are hustler. And you got to be in this business without quite well.

Brandon Riley 8:24
Yeah, I'll tell you a funny story. Last year, maybe it's two years ago, I I was I was not working. And I got I saw this thing on Facebook. And I was like, Hey, we need to first you need to cover our first day he got sick, right? And I was like, Oh, this is me. I could do this. Right. So so he called the guy is like, I'm your guy. And and and then the next morning they call it like how fast can you be here? Because there's a Vegas and like, I'll be there in house for four hours, three hours. Sure. So I yeah, I packed my bag, like in one hour fight and then drive and drive to Vegas. And then and then continue. And I jump on set and try to get things going right. So I do that. So and then the next show after that was this. I had they had fired a first ad and so I that's the next show was in Atlanta, but it was starting like a day after this other show in Vegas. So I had essentially, like have no prep on both of these shows. And it's just like one thing after, there's so many things like that, where it's like, you got to make these decisions or you got to,you know,

Alex Ferrari 9:34
Do this or not.

Brandon Riley 9:35
It's like but yeah, it was definitely I had to hustle to get those you know.

Alex Ferrari 9:39
Now let me let me ask you a question because a lot of people listening don't know what is the job of a first assistant director or first ad?

Brandon Riley 9:47
Right. So in my opinion, the job of the first ad is really to make it so the director can focus on the creative right? And and he's not worried about logistics. So Because if you try to do both, it's just so much for one person. So, you know, I tried to put out as many fires as possible. And so I'm on the radio, talking to the second ad and the second second, I'm talking to the PA, and all the other departments saying, Hey, bring this actor, we're going to do a blocking. And then what, how are we doing on the next scene? I'm talking to the costume designer and saying, Hey, we're having to change this wardrobe? Can you get a different look, and and while the director is talking to the dp by the shot, he's not having to worry about that logistical thing. So, you know, you know, when I do work in the first idi, I'm working very close with the DP and the director. And we're making, we're essentially working as a team and make all these decisions, like, how do we get through the day, you know, and some first ladies have a certain way, where, you know, people have heard the first ad screen when your yo and some are very calm or assertive. And, you know, I try to be in between I don't try to yell or anything. But so, you know, the first ad is can sometimes be looked at as the bad guy. You know,

Alex Ferrari 11:13
What you guys are you guys, you, you're the party pooper, man, you guys are the party poopers. But you need that you need an adult onset. And a lot of times the director and the actors and the DP are all in the creative mode. And like, let's just get this shot. And it's gonna only take four hours, I'm like, well, then we're out of our schedules off. And that's your job.

Brandon Riley 11:31
Yeah. And I think what's what's difficult about it is you got to be very diplomatic, because you can't just say, hey, you can't just say the director, hey, we're moving, moving on, you know, because it's really the director's decision, whether you're moving on or not,

Alex Ferrari 11:46
You're just there to tell them, hey, if you don't, this is what's going to happen.

Brandon Riley 11:50
Yeah, I mean, I just, I inform him, Hey, I think we're behind or, in my opinion, we are behind we, is there a way that we can catch up? You know, and so it's, and you know, I want to be there with solutions to like, Well, here's a couple of things. Could we do this in a water?

Alex Ferrari 12:09
Right? Instead of 45? takes different angles? Can we just do this in a water and move on?

Brandon Riley 12:15
Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's having those lunch meetings with the DP and the director, like, what can we do to, to make come up with the rest of the day, you know,

Alex Ferrari 12:27
And so, I want you to, I want to kind of focus in on this because a lot of first time directors and filmmakers, or inexperienced directors don't understand the importance of the schedule, don't understand that you've got an eight hour, 10 hour, 12 hour day. And if you're shooting a feature, than if you are, if you like, first day, you're behind a page, well, you've got to make that page up somewhere. If by day two, you've, you're now behind two pages. So let's say that's three pages down, you're never gonna finish the movie. If you keep going on this path, you're never gonna finish the movie, the whole thing's gonna become a fiasco. Right? And that's the job of the first ad is to kind of really hone in on. Look, we've got to make the day. And a good and a good director, a seasoned director understands that correct?

Brandon Riley 13:15
Yeah, and I think, yeah, but some of them don't care, you know. So it's a kind of a thing where, you know, you got to be the middleman between the director and the producer, like, can we even go over, you know, and so it's like, we'll go, you know, they'll ask me, we'll go talk to producers, hey, we need this shot. And then I'll go talk to the producer, and they'll say, we'll go back to the director and say, we don't have the money for the shot. So, you know, it's kind of one of those things of, you know, you're trying to be the peacekeeper, essentially. And, and, and keep things moving. But, you know, I'm always trying to fight for the best movie, you know, and sometimes the best movie needs to go in overtime. Sometimes, you know, the best movie needs more extra as more money, you know. And so I do sometimes goes to the producers and say, Hey, I know that you guys budgeted 100 extra for this movie. I did my math, I sat with the director, I came out with 140. You know, can we find a way to increase the budget on this category? You know, so it's, it's, it's being realistic. And, you know, instead of like, saying, okay, we only have 100 to work with, I guess we'll just have to live with it, you know?

Alex Ferrari 14:31
Or do some visual effects. Right. Now, now, can you explain how a first ad breaks down a script, which I know that's a mystery to a lot of filmmakers were like, Oh, you give it to a first ad or I need the script broken down. What is that? Exactly?

Brandon Riley 14:48
You know, it's actually a lot easier than people think it is. But you know, I get hired all the time to to just do a script breakdown and a budget you know, probably on a monthly basis. As people call me like, Hey, can you do scheduling a budget? So the easiest way to explain it is, you know, you look at every scene in the script, and we have to have a scene number. And when we look for how long is the scene? Is it five eighths of a page? Who's in the scene? You know, we have, you know, john, Mary and, and Joseph. Joseph, right. Three Wise Men, right? Yes. So and then, you know, what, are there any props in the scene? Where is the scene is what location is, you know, where is it at?

Alex Ferrari 15:35
Is there stunts on the scene? Is there?

Brandon Riley 15:37
Yeah. So and then the program that we use is called movie magic scheduling is is the main program. There's other ones like synchronize. But gorilla, right. But the nice thing about movie magic is because so many people have it, if you send them the file, they can easily open it.

Alex Ferrari 15:52
It's the industry standard.

Brandon Riley 15:54
Yeah. So that's the nice thing about it. Yes, it's it's kind of antiquated, but it's still it's a cool software. Well, you know, when I was when I was in college, I didn't really know much about assistant directing or movie magic. So I was like, how do people do this thing like you're talking about? But it's, it's there's YouTube videos that he puts out that you can watch and learn. But the other thing is like, you can you can ask a first ad, okay, well, you show me a little this. And it only takes like five minutes to show you the program, essentially, you know, but once you get the hang of it, it's not difficult. I think what's difficult is, once you break it down, is moving the strip's around and actually scheduling it, because that's, that's where the producers will get on the phone with you and be like, Okay, well, we have 15 days, but this actor can only work three days, and this actor can only work four days. And that, you know, we can only be on this location on this one day. And so all these parameters come into play when you actually actually start shooting, that aren't involved when the film was actually budgeted. And, you know, that can create a real nightmare.

Alex Ferrari 17:10
Without question, yeah, the schedule in general, though, is like a living, breathing thing. It's constantly changing. It's constantly moving around, because there's so many parameters that affect it, like, like, Oh, this actor is now leaving a day early, and the other actors coming in a day early. So now we got to change that around and all the location dropped, we got to move to another location, oh, there's rain coming. And there's, there's just so many things, especially in a feature when you're 30 days, 45 days, you know, five weeks, six weeks, eight weeks, there's so many different parameters. And I can only imagine on those, like $200 million movies. Oh, I know, they have to have like an army of a DS to just kind of, because that's like, moving independent, you know, film, as an ad, I'm imagining it's a smaller ship. So you can cut and you're kind of speedboat, but when you're moving that $200 million visual effects extravaganza is like moving a carrier.

Brandon Riley 18:06
Yeah. I mean, yeah, the movie Dunkirk they had, you know, five different countries they shot in. So I mean, can you imagine, but you know, as an ad as the first ad, I think it's almost like, like, a, like a ship commander, you know, or, you know, like a battle commander, where you're, you're, you're all about strategy, right? And how are you going to win the battle? So, you know, every day on the film set feels like a battle sometimes. But you

Alex Ferrari 18:37
Every day you go in and you're just like, Alright, it's not gonna come out the way I planned it right. I'm not gonna get all my shots. Let's just do what we can and let's move forward on it. And yeah, you just don't know. It's just oh, there's just too many parameters, man. It's just too many.

Brandon Riley 18:52
Right? things and happening. Yeah. So if you if you take all that all that responsibility and try to force it on a director is is too much for one person to think about, you know, it's like, I'm overloaded just thinking about logistics. It's, I can't think about the creative, you know,

Alex Ferrari 19:10
And I've done it it is not easy. smaller things on smaller things. Yeah, feature anything but write smaller things. Well, actually, I didn't do it on a feature once but it but it was a very controlled, very small situation. So I was able to do it. But almost I've been doing it for 20 odd years. So I it's a little bit different. But yeah, it is not easy. Now it's not I'd much rather have a good first ad.

Brandon Riley 19:32
Right? Yeah, cuz even if I was directing something, I want a first ad, you know, just because you want the freedom to be creative, and not have to think about who do I need to bring to set next and because because you're trying as a director you're constantly thinking about is the scene work, you know, is the acting. What's the shot like talking to the DP, you know? So there's already and then you have 100 different questions from each department. You know, they're trying to answer. So I love being a first ad. But it's, it's also very stressful sometimes. So I sometimes

Alex Ferrari 20:11
I don't know, I have no idea you guys do it in general. And you were you said, you said something earlier. But there's two things I wanted to kind of touch that you said earlier that you could show, you know, a filmmaker or Producer Director how to use movie magic. But that's just a piece of software, whereas in the art form of using that to schedule is something that it takes years to an experience to be able to do because you know, where there's going to be. Oh, there's, there's a pitfall right there. Oh, there's a cliff that we don't want to go over. Yeah, but that's just you know, so it just because you might know, the software doesn't mean that you can schedule your own movie, if you have no degree.

Brandon Riley 20:49
Exactly. Yeah, you could do a rough schedule, any big new rough schedule, but in terms of like budgeting something, but like, even stuff, like understanding how to shoot a split or nights, or how much night you actually need before you can start shooting, you know, so if the sun sets at 748, I know that we can probably start shooting around 830 if if we're you know, going full speed, we can't start shooting at 730 just because of my experience is too bright. So those are the types of things that you just it takes years of experience. And, and you kind of learn, you know, on the job really as working as a second or, or, or as a first you know, just collaborating with other ideas and be like, hey, well what about this and this, you know, and that's the other thing I like about it is you are working with other people and and bouncing ideas off. So

Alex Ferrari 21:47
It's problem solving you're trying to Yeah, we're all just trying to get across the, across the river.

Brandon Riley 21:53
Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's I mean, in general, that's what I see my job primarily as is a problem solver as a first ad or a wine producer. I there's like a list of 100 problems and I've got to solve them. And and that's what I like about it.

Alex Ferrari 22:07
Now, you also mentioned the about yellers and screamers and also quiet first ladies. I've had all I've worked with all I can't stand yellers. Because I feel personally it doesn't. It doesn't really for at least for my sets. And if you're on a Joe Pickett set that might be different. But if you're, by the way, guys, Joe pika look him up. He's a very famous commercial director. And the stories will speak for themselves. But, but generally speaking, I like to have a really cool, calm, relaxed, have a fun kind of atmosphere. And when when I always found that when I see first day DS yelling, is because they're losing control. And this is now their last last line of defense. But there are also times where I kind of see where it's needed. So there is a balance, but generally speaking, the quiet controlled first ladies who know what they're doing, and and have the respect of the crew, which is a huge thing. If you lose, if you lose your crew, you're done as a first ad,

Brandon Riley 23:12
Right! Yeah, and I think there's a difference between yelling and being loud because you have to be loud and be like, if you're open a loud an open space on a field, you know, you might have to use a megaphone. You might have to, you know, do this. Yeah, I'm with you. I there's no reason to yell. And And honestly, like you said, it makes people feel like you're out of control.

Alex Ferrari 23:36
And with a CFO with a season crew, the season crew will eat you alive. I mean, yeah. Seasoned Hollywood crew with a yelling first ad. Who's inexperienced? It's done. They just yeah, they'll just go on doing their own thing. And they'll ignore him, which happened to me on rice. That's I'm like, Oh, man.

Brandon Riley 23:53
Yeah, you know, one thing that I tried to do on on every movie is I meet with the director, and the DP and myself, if I found the first ad or the producer, and we have a little powwow, and we talked about how do we want the set to be run? You know, because I think sometimes, I mean, you're all coming together, you never work with each other for the most part, unless you have before. And so everybody has these different assumptions. You know, some some first time directors think that they're supposed to direct the extras when that's really like, the ad the ad job. Yeah. So sometimes there's like an educational meeting. I was like, okay, so and then I asked the director, how do you want to set to be run, you know, what, what, what do you want? And then I'll talk about like, what some are, my expectations are, you know, that if if we feel behind, how are we going to dress that on the day, you know, just and that's like an hour meeting, and that our meeting has really changed the way I work because because we can point back to that meeting. I remember when we talked About that, or just knowing that they know that, hey, we're gonna set the extras, you don't have to worry about that. But if you want to, you want to help us figure out this one piece, you know, get dirty. What is no. And I think that that that's been helping, helpful for me, I guess.

Alex Ferrari 25:18
Yeah, again, communication always is a big help when working on a set. Now, can you you've mentioned second, second, eds, and third eds. What are the what are the differences between the multiple and I've seen many multiple versions of EDS out on the set.

Brandon Riley 25:35
Yeah, it's funny, I've actually never been a second second. So I'm, I can tell you a little about it, but I've never done it. And it's, it's mostly to do with, you know, working with the background actors and working with talent. And you know, if you have 300 extras that day, you might have several seconds seconds, and they're just all giving the background, they're setting background, they're giving them direction, they're wrangling them,

Alex Ferrari 26:01
Are they would you consider them like a glorified pa is at that point? Because I've heard that, like a lot of pa is just going like, okay, you're the second second thing?

Brandon Riley 26:10
Yeah, I mean, sometimes it's a credit that's given to a PA, if you don't have a second second. It's it's really the first ad his right hand man on set a lot of times, you know, in terms of a lot of times the second IDs at base camp, doing a call sheet. Sometimes the second ad is on set, helping with background different things, but a lot of times they're so much paperwork, they're just not able to be on set as much. Sure. And then a third ad, the same thing is the second second. It's just in a different country, they call them different things. So like in UK, they might call them a third ad. So are fourth at

Alex Ferrari 26:50
What sometimes you might need it because there's like 5000 people that you're trying to wrangle?

Brandon Riley 26:55
Well, yeah. And in the US, we wouldn't we wouldn't have a third or fourth, we'd have like an additional second ad, you know, and then we'd have a second second. And if you could have an additional second second, stuff like that. And sometimes you might have to first add, if it's a TV show, and they're rotating, and all that kind of stuff. So it gets really complicated.

Alex Ferrari 27:16
Now, you also know you also do line producing, can you talk a little bit about what the job of a line producer is versus a UPM?

Brandon Riley 27:25
Yeah, I mean, I'm not the best at explaining that. But I'll do my best. Sure. So so the line producer, you know, in my opinion starts early on with the film and and they might open bank accounts they might make get the tax incentives, get all the accounts opened, and then handle the budget, do a lot of the major hires and then a UPM would come on later in the game, and take over some of those responsibilities, you know, in terms of hiring the crew, managing payroll, working with the accountants and stuff, really, that the two overlap a lot. But on a big show, I think they're important to have both because there's so much to do. You don't want to just have another PA, you don't know. And so, you know, I did a show for the CW, where I was the line producer, and we had a UPM. And we kind of split responsibilities a little bit. And it was very helpful because, you know, I was busy all day, you know, but there's some shows where I don't have a UPM. It's just kind of I'm the wine producer. And that's that's what it is.

Alex Ferrari 28:38
And for everybody listening a UPM is a unit production manager. Because a lot of people don't know what UPM is, in general. Now what what is the DGA? And how does a first ad get into the DGA?

Brandon Riley 28:51
So the DJ is the Directors Guild of America and it's the Union for directors HDS and UPS

Alex Ferrari 29:00
Line producers and UPS right?

Brandon Riley 29:02
Well, so line producers are not actually in a union. Okay, so they're, they're the one of the few categories that don't have a union. Same thing as producers aren't in a union, although you can join a producer's guild but that's more of a club. Like the ASC. Yeah, so I'm in the Brewers Guild, but yeah, I'm in a club. Basically,

Alex Ferrari 29:22
You're not getting you're not getting a pension, you're not getting a pension from the

Brandon Riley 29:25
Right. I mean, it's a cool club to be a part of. There's lots of parties and stuff like that. So the way you get into the DGA is very complicated, but the easiest way is to get into the DGA training program. And that happens every year, or I think applications and around April or May and and essentially they take like 20 people they accept, you know, out of hundreds of applications. And if you get accepted then you get like two or three years of work and you work on big shows and TV shows as a trainee trainee assistant, or assistant assistant trainee. And and then you know you're set for life pretty much because you've built contacts and you know, you can easily step into a second ad and then go via first.

Alex Ferrari 30:16
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Brandon Riley 30:28
I did did not do that I tried, but I was not qualified enough. So in the end, the reason they don't always pick who you think they're gonna pick, sometimes they pick people with no film experience at all. So you really don't know who these people are going to pick. And so I didn't let that discourage me. But so you can get on. The other option is to get on a show that flips you know, and that's how I got on I was on a show where the UPM I was hired before the UPM and the UPM was the DGA. UPM. And she wanted to make the show part of the Union. And so that would mean that I would have to join and so I joined.

Alex Ferrari 31:12
Now when you when you flip a show, that's generally not depending on the perspective, it's not a good thing sometimes.

Brandon Riley 31:19
Well, there's different clippings I guess flipping for the DGA is only like three people or four people,

Alex Ferrari 31:25
Right! It's like it's not like I asked

Brandon Riley 31:27
Yeah, yeah, so it's director UPM. First and Second, or second second. But yeah, the IRC, which covers the rest of the crew, except for teamsters, you know, that that's where people they talk, mostly talking about flipping, that's what they mostly refer to. Because you really can't it's really weird for a show to flip DJ It was so I guess it wasn't really flipped. It was more of just, I was grandfathered in. And essentially, it's not gonna backdoor it's not gonna Yeah, so that's how I got in. And then the other way to get in is through working as a PA.

Alex Ferrari 32:01
Yes, I remember that.

Brandon Riley 32:04
And like you get like 600 days or something like that and not have to be on some commercial QL. And you can call if you have questions you can call the DGA QL. website. And they'll kind of walk you through how to be qualified. It's important though to keep call sheets and you have a proof and paycheck stubs. Yeah. Because if you if you can't prove that you worked, they'll kick out some of your days, you know. So

Alex Ferrari 32:35
so if you if you pa for 600 days, and you can prove it with call sheets and pay stubs, that's a way in to the DGA to get in, but that's a long, that's a long way around.

Brandon Riley 32:46
Yeah, I mean, the other way, like I was working was collecting days as a non union first ad, and then I'm able to basically cash those days in to be listed as a certain QL. You know, so that's the DJ is very complicated.

Alex Ferrari 33:05
Because it's a wonder because it's a wonderful union once you're in Yeah, the pension is insane. The medical is insane. It's one of the best unions in the business period.

Brandon Riley 33:16
Yeah, it really is a great union, although it's sometimes tough, because you can't take other work. You can't take non union non union work. And whereas if I go work, if I'm an IRC member, a lot of times they don't care as much, you know, right. And I didn't really know that going into it. But I know I know now.

Alex Ferrari 33:36
Yeah. Now, let me ask you a question. How do you handle a director that is just breaking down and completely losing control on set? Is there anything the first ad can do to help? Because I'm sure you've been on projects, whether it's a first time director, or he's having a bad day, or he's having a bad movie, and it's just completely just breaking down? Losing control? What is there anything you can do to help?

Brandon Riley 34:03
You know, I don't know if I mean, losing control? I don't know about as much as out of control. I mean, maybe it's more of I've dealt with directors that are yelling and screaming and firing firing people

Alex Ferrari 34:16
So out of out of control. So out of control.

Brandon Riley 34:19
Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, that's always a tough thing. Because, you know, you everybody wants to keep their job, you know, so it's like, I better but at the same time, the director will listen to me where they might not listen to the third PA, you know, so I think it's, it's challenging because you have to pull them aside and be like, Hey, I know, I know you're upset. Like there was this one instance where this actor, we thought that she cut her hair, and he just wanted to get rid of her and you know, it was an African American actress and She, she didn't really cut her hair. It was like, he had these braids, things, you know? So, right, but I was like, it's like, if we fire this actress, we're gonna have to reshoot these two days of stuff like that, right? It's like, as, like, we don't have the time or the money is like, so, you know. So in that instance, I was able to convince him not to fire her, right?

Alex Ferrari 35:25
It was just logic, it was logical,

Brandon Riley 35:27
Right! But it's like, sometimes, you know, and there are, there are a few directors that are bipolar, just because the profession attracts some people that are highly creative, you know, and, and I've worked with many of these guys. And so that's challenging, too, you know, so I think, you know, it's trying to be the calm one on set is my goal is trying to Okay, I know where this this huge problem is in front of us. But let's, let's think about it. Because if we're, if we're being loud, and and angry about it, it's not going to solve itself, you know, so I just try to come up with as many solutions as possible, and talk to him in a calm, assertive way. And I don't know if that's answering the question,

Alex Ferrari 36:19
It is, it is, it is. I mean, it's, uh, it's tough when you have an out of control directors kind of like having out of control General, like, yeah, you know, all of a sudden, they're firing people or attacking places that they shouldn't be as acting as a general. So same thing goes with a directory he could out of control director can bring down the entire movie within minutes. Yeah. And it's tough. And then you're stuck in the middle between the producer and Oh, god, there's so much drama, that could happen. I said, when you when, when you have people like that. Now, tell me a little bit about assisting directing, calm your website.

Brandon Riley 36:53
So yeah, it's just a little site that I created a couple years ago, it was funny, the domain was available. And I was like, I just got to buy this thing. And I just put blogs and articles and some downloads on there, to help others that are wanting to get into assistant directing. And, you know, I just have, every time I go work on a thumb set, I learned something new. And I was like, Oh, this could be a post and I post it, you know, you know, I had a friend of mine contact me today. And he's an ad friend of mine. But he's producing movies like, Where do you get non union extras? Like, why? I was like, I do find these la casting when I'm in Los Angeles. And so that was, you know, but as like, that's another topic for a blog post is finding non union extras. You know, I have that I have a couple of those posts. But I don't know, I just I feel there's value in sharing knowledge and experiences with others. And, you know, I wrote a book kind of about my experience.

Alex Ferrari 37:51
Yeah. Can you tell me about your book?

Brandon Riley 37:53
Yeah. So it's called the career, the career chose me. And it just kind of talks about, you know, choosing the right career. And in a way that you don't have to go really find a career that the premise is really that if you figure out who you are, and what you like, and what you're good at, that the career will essentially choose you. And that and that's kind of what happened to me in the sense that I really fell into assistant direct assistant directing, you know, I just, I didn't know what system directing was, but if I did, I would have chose it a long time ago. You know, because I love scheduling. I love budgeting. I've always been the super organized person.

Alex Ferrari 38:34
God bless you. God bless you, sir. I can't. That's why we need first ad. I can't

Brandon Riley 38:38
I mean, I was the editor of my school newspaper in high school, and I was telling my peers what to do. And you know, today, I'm telling my parents what to do, you know, so it's kind of a similar thing. So I talked about my personal story in the book, but I make it, you know, broad, it's not just about filmmaking, it's really back back careers. But I do give some help helpful hints for those that want to pursue the film industry. And and so the website is the career chose me calm, and it is available on Amazon.

Alex Ferrari 39:10
I'll put that in the show notes. Good. Now, I'm gonna ask you a few questions. I ask all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker wanting to break into the business today?

Brandon Riley 39:21
Yeah, I mean, I think like we talked about college earlier, the question is whether or not to pursue college and then having because you may or may not be the best thing and to where to live. Because, you know, the market is, you know, so fragmented now. You know, I'm why I'm producing this movie in Louisiana, Louisiana right now, but right. You know, I also live in Los Angeles. And so, you know, you can really live in a lot of different places. So it's looking where the tax credits right now and Atlanta and Louisiana, those could be good markets to live in. Yes, you could go to Los Angeles in New York. But the competition is so heavy. So you just have to really, you know, think about, do you want to be a big fish in a small pond or a small fish in a big pond? And, you know, so where do you live? And, but I think, you know, being self aware is very important. And I think that's one of the biggest things for most people is they're not enough self aware. And, you know, so my biggest downfall was I was like, I want to be a dp for a decade. And, you know, I was okay. I mean, I could, I can be a fine camera operator, or I could shoot video. But when it comes down to it, I'm not great with math, F, you know, trying to figure out what f stop doesn't come natural to me. So it's not a great profession for me to choose. If it doesn't come. Not necessarily easy, but I just don't enjoy that part of it. You know. So if I would have realized that earlier on and been more self aware, if I would have asked more people, hey, what do you think I'm good at? What do you think I should pursue? I think that would have helped me find this position, this ad wine producer position earlier, you know, but I don't feel like I wasted that much time. So I don't know. those are those are the main things.

Alex Ferrari 41:29
Okay, now, can you tell me what book had the biggest impact on your life or career?

Brandon Riley 41:35
Hmm, I don't know if I know that. There's so many books, you know, that. I don't know if there's one book but I will say that when I was in high school, I became a voracious reader. Like, I just started reading dozens of books on leadership. And that was something that topic of leadership, I think, has affected the way that I I try to work and work with people. And I think if you can understand leadership and how people want to be treated, because that's a huge part of my job is trying to lead people and and educate people. And trying to make the right decision, you know, and but

Alex Ferrari 42:20
Read a lot.

Brandon Riley 42:21
Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, but I mean, read nonfiction. I I'm a big nonfiction reader. I guess I just Yes. Well, I love business books. I love not, you know, there is a book, a great book about assistant directing, by I can't remember the name of it, but it's it'll come to me later.

Alex Ferrari 42:42
I'll put it up, put some hurt some links. Yeah. Yeah. So now what lesson took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Brandon Riley 42:54
Lesson took me the longest to learn? I don't know. That's a tough question. In life? No, I think one thing that I realized a couple years ago, was to stop waiting for jobs. You know, I'm saying like, like, I can always apply for something off Craigslist. So I can apply for something of Mandy or, you know, wherever these job applications are, and that's great. But I'm not going to depend on that to provide for me a job, right. So I've got to go out there and like your podcasts, I gotta hustle. So that for me, that means, you know, I send a lot of cold emails to people that I don't know.

Alex Ferrari 43:45
Like to me. Exactly.

Brandon Riley 43:49
I, you know, I, you know, I go to networking events, even though I hate networking, and I tried to, I have a goal where I just meet one person, you know, I don't try to try to meet 10 people, I just be one person. You know, so there's small things I think the biggest thing is for me is also is following up with people, they'll say, Hey, you know, hit me up in three months, and I'll put on my calendar and I'll hit him up in three months. And and I think just having tenacity to you know, keep bugging people sometimes, and I hate being the one to bug somebody but I'm, you know, I'm known for that is

Alex Ferrari 44:27
Gotta hustle. is basically the blessing is hustle and hustle. Now, what are three of your favorite films of all time?

Brandon Riley 44:36
Three of my favorite films. One of my favorite films is Magnolia by PT Anderson. And not feel Magnolia is because people confuse

Alex Ferrari 44:46
Very different movies.

Brandon Riley 44:47
I know I haven't even seen film I know so I don't know. But I just love the tracking shots and Magnolia and Pisces. You know, the rain and the falling frogs and sure Yeah, so my other favorite movie is Zoolander.

Alex Ferrari 45:03
Of course,

Brandon Riley 45:04
Because I can quote the entire movie. Sure. The third movie I don't I don't know. I'd have to think I mean, I love I love spy films. So I just probably had to say like born one of the Bourne movies just think they're, they're well made. And now where can people find you? So people can find me. My what? My personal website is the film fixer.us and my email is Brandon@radiantfirstcom.

Alex Ferrari 45:33
Oh, god, I'm sorry. You did? I told you not to but All right, now you're gonna get it? I know. Right? Yeah.

Brandon Riley 45:43
Yeah, and let's see, I all my my social media handles are radiant first. So you can look me up that way.

Alex Ferrari 45:50
And then assistantdirecting.com?

Brandon Riley 45:53
Yes, correct.

Alex Ferrari 45:54
Very cool. Brandon man. Thank you so much for being on the show. Man. You've dropped some first ad knowledge bombs on the tribe today. So I really appreciate it, man.

Brandon Riley 46:01
Hey, really appreciate it. Alex. Thanks so much.

Alex Ferrari 46:04
I want to thank Brandon for coming on and dropping some first ad knowledge bombs on the tribe. If you want to get links to anything we discussed in this episode, just head over to indiefilmhustle.com/254 to download the show notes. And guys, on a side note, I am working on another secret project not a feature film. thing. I've discussed this before. But this is going to be huge. The biggest thing that I've ever done for the tribe, for filmmakers in general, and I really do hope it provides a tremendous amount of value because it's really, really a lot of work. But I am working on that as we speak. So keep an eye out next couple month next month or two for an announcement and then a launch hopefully sometime in October November sometime. But just trust me you guys are gonna flip the hell out when when I talk to you about it. So keep an eye out. And if you haven't already, head over to filmmaking podcast calm and leave the show a good review on iTunes. It really helps us out a lot. I really appreciate it. And as always keep that also going. Keep that dream alive and I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 246: Directing Color on Set with Ollie Kenchington

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Today on the show we have color master Ollie Kenchington. Ollie is a filmmaker, editor, and colorist. He has released an amazing new course called Directing Color. The course focuses on the use of color not only in color grading but also on-set. Since I’ve been a colorist for over a decade I know the importance of color and want to share that info with the IFH Tribe.

Ollie’s company, Korro Films, produces commercials, short films, documentaries and branded content for major international clients, with Ollie Kenchington carrying out senior editor and colorist duties on every project. Ollie Kenchington is an assured practitioner across all areas of filmmaking, giving him a deep understanding of the creative process which allows his agency to flourish in this competitive industry. Additionally, he is an accomplished educator and founder of Korro Academy.

In Directing Color, filmmaker, editor, and colorist Ollie Kenchington explore how visual language cues, color theory, and even color grading techniques can be used throughout the filmmaking process to not just create a “look” but to enhance storytelling. He challenges directors, cinematographers, and filmmakers to think of color first rather than the more common approach of leaving color considerations until post-production.

Enjoy my conversation with Ollie Kenchington.

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
I'd like to welcome the show Ollie Kenchington man and thank you so much for taking the time out and jumping on the podcast.

Ollie Kenchington 0:19
It's my absolute pleasure, Alex, it's lovely to speak to you.

Alex Ferrari 3:02
And you know, this is a topic you know, that we have not covered on the show before and it is so important. And it's so powerful. And I know a lot of independent filmmakers just don't understand color. Not only the color grading process, but specifically the theory behind color. So I'm really looking forward to jumping into it with you.

Ollie Kenchington 3:20
Yeah, lovely. Fantastic. I could talk all day about this. So go for it.

Alex Ferrari 3:23
Okay, so how did you first get into the business?

Ollie Kenchington 3:28
Color or just generally feel generally

Alex Ferrari 3:30
Do you as a filmmaker? Yes!

Ollie Kenchington 3:32
Me as a filmmaker. So I studied, I Well, if I go way, way back, which really does kind of say the seeds for where I am right now. I studied astronomy, art and photography at college, which is an unusual mix. And I really didn't know why I was studying that combination of courses back then. He kind of dawned on me much later on that perhaps I quite enjoyed science and art. And that's kind of ultimately what led me into coloring and it seems to me one of the the best kind of disciplines for marrying art and science and the technical with the creative and I picked up as I say stills cameras First of all, but really quite quickly moved into video. I was only doing stills for a couple of years before I got hold of a big s VHS. Big beast off the top of the line that then

Alex Ferrari 4:32
Svhs was the shit.

Ollie Kenchington 4:33
Oh, man. Yeah, absolutely. And I was working with that for a little while and this was this. So I started my degree in 2000. So my degree was a kind of a mix. It was actually an art degree but it was very open. So I basically off of my own volition made it focused on photography and film. And my my final show was a mixture of the two and I, I really kind of enjoyed flitting between the two. And obviously it's such such a cross discipline but with what film opened up for me was the ability to obviously tell that narrative to actually string that story out in a, you know, a linear fashion. And as it really was then linear here, we had tape to tape. But But we were sort of doing it at the time where the cusp of mini DV was just starting to get entrenched. And I remember one day, turning up and the S VHS camera was sort of still in the cupboard and in its place, was this canon XM one? Yes. My University couldn't afford an Excel one. I was about to say. Yeah, much to my annoyance. It was only an art school after all, but I had an accent. And, yeah, I I think the camera itself didn't really excite me at that, at the time, I've got more excited about cameras in more recent years. But at the time, what excited me was the fact that I could take that footage straight into, you know, the power max that we were using back then, and the editing in you know, only real time you know, coming coming, ingesting that and, and starting to edit it, you know, digitally on the computer straightaway. That will not what felt like straightaway anyway, was what opened up the floodgates for me and a lecturer of mine managed to get me a hooky copy of Final Cut Pro. I think it was version two actually, it wasn't version two, it just come out. And that was that. So it's kind of all these things were happening simultaneously. And that was the kind of opening of the door for me. I then used all of my student loan to buy an iMac dv snow, which was the yo Yeah, had FireWire on it that that was

Alex Ferrari 6:48
Oh yeah. Smokin!

Ollie Kenchington 6:50
What more do you need an iMac and an A dv capable camera and, and I was away so I didn't spend I literally just kind of hid away for the next three years of my degree just teaching myself how to edit with Final Cut Pro and making all kinds of weird. I've still got a lot of them and every now and again I watch them just to make myself chuckle but some some very odd art films.

Alex Ferrari 7:16
We all have. We all have a man we all have

Ollie Kenchington 7:18
Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. Saturday's would classic. And yeah, but you know, it kind of so all came from that there was a bit of a hiccup along the way because I needed money. I quickly realized that, you know, making art films was was never ever going to make me a single penny. So I fell into a job working for Apple, literally straight after I graduated. And yeah, yeah, it wasn't. At the time. It seems odd now but at the time, Apple didn't really exist in the UK in a kind of a bricks and mortar sense. They they relied on this massive network of third party what they call Apple premium resellers, which I think they have in the states as well. Sure. They still kind of exist in this country, or they've been kind of reduced in number by the fact obviously Apple now have these massive Apple Stores everywhere. But yes, a tiny little apple premium reseller in the west southwest of the UK. And they really like the fact that I new Final Cut Pro and the pro video apps and I worked with them for about three years and supporting a lot of post houses in the local area with setting up you know, accents and getting the pro apps system installed.

Alex Ferrari 8:35
You're getting that magic, you're geeking out hard. I love it.

Ollie Kenchington 8:38
I know. It was a crazy time. We were talking about this before you started recording. But we you know we come from a similar kind of period of time with this. It seems crazy now people even people can have like, who in their early 20s are God yet? Remember when Apple were tiny? Like No, no, no, you don't understand. Yeah, we're in the early 2000s this this this company was basically dead. It was bad.

Alex Ferrari 8:59
It was almost It was almost bankrupt. Absolutely. I remember I remember I remember $7 a share for Apple. Yeah. I remember $7 Digi bite them? No, of course now why in god's green when I bought it? Yeah. Now that would be a whole different story. Yes, yes, absolutely. Now when did you get into color grading where you you found a home in color grading as well or added it to your tools are your arsenal of things that you can do?

Ollie Kenchington 9:30
Well, the first time that I actually got hold of some color grading software and and it became accessible to me as a mere human being it was when Apple brought out color. Yeah, of course. So so that that was the first kind of hands on but actually the first time that I decided that I wanted to be a colorist was actually a couple of years were quite a few years before that. I was watching the bonus DVD of the Fellowship of the Ring. And they had that there's a little piece on there. Which is only a short little bit with Peter Doyle, talking to him about how he color graded the film and I was watching I was like what what's color grading? I literally had no idea I'd never heard of it. I'd never kind of contemplated that there was even such a need, you know, surely this stuff came out the camera looking like this, you know? And I'm watching it and I remember it so vividly. There's this bit where he's, you hear him in voiceover talking about them grading legless in the Mines of Moria. And we see legless up on I think it's on like, one of the graves, you know, one of the color tombs, and he jumps off and they're grading his eyes to make them look more kind of blue, because he's an alpha, and they're kind of magical. So, yeah, and I'm like, oh, wow, that's amazing. And then he hits the track button, and it tracks his eyeballs. And as, like a lot of people even today, you know, when they see demonstrations of drinking in Versailles, my mind was, was absolutely blown. I to the point where I I kind of stopped a pizza line, and I managed to find an email address for him and I sent me an email saying, I just want to be a colorist now since I've watched this, you know, how do I become a colorist? And the guy wrote back to me, he's like, we're going to be grading Return of the King soon. Why don't you be my assistant?

Alex Ferrari 11:19
Oh, that's amazing.

Ollie Kenchington 11:25
This This story is I've told this story several times over the years, and it never gets any less painful. So I I'm like, of course yes. That's amazing.

Alex Ferrari 11:35
But he's a news but he's in New Zealand, right?

Ollie Kenchington 11:37
He's in New Zealand. So he's like, yeah, yeah, we're coming up with where and I'm like, Well, I'm in my last year of my degree and and you know, I've got my degree too and she's like, well, that's cool. That'll that'll line up really well with the timings Oh my god, that is perfect. And it got it got kind of a couple of months down the line and his emails were becoming increasingly kind of agitated like you know, if you sorted out accommodation yet and we've got to book flights you know, and I was like, Dude, chill out. You know, this is we got months until I finished my degree and he was What are you talking about? Surely don't you finish in December like we do in New Zealand as I know our academic year ends in June and we were like talking across purposes for months and he will be finished in June you can you feel you either got to just forget your degree and come over or you know, we're just gonna this isn't gonna happen. And

Alex Ferrari 12:28
Please, please don't say it don't say don't go Oh, my God. I decided to finish my let me just remind you my art degree. Oh. It's not like I was training to be a doctor. Your right before you got to to the last. Oh my god. Yeah. No. Have anyone around the slap you? There was no one.

Ollie Kenchington 12:52
No One No One I honestly no one around me had any idea. I was literally the only person that I knew that was even knew that color grading existed who Peter Doyle was so on.

Alex Ferrari 13:03
So what happened when you told Peter Doyle, yeah, thanks for the assistant job, but I'm gonna finish my art degree instead. Yeah, yeah, buddy. Oh, by the way, the Oscar winning third parts of the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

Ollie Kenchington 13:20
Yeah, this story gets worse by the way i just wanted. So I I said, I'm gonna choose to sit my screen and he bless him. He was really supportive. He's like, I totally get it. I think maybe he mistakenly thought I was doing a worthwhile degree. But he is I get it. You know, you finish your studies, you know, maybe we can work on something in the future. Anyway, fast forward a year and I get this email out of the blue. As I said, I wasn't joking when I said I fell straight into a job with Apple after I graduated. It was literally two weeks after my graduation ceremony. I'm now working for Apple. And about six months further down the line. I think I'd already been promoted once it was it was such a massive change point in time where Apple were changing and expanding so quickly. It was you know, I was absolutely caught up in it. And I get this email out the blue from him saying, Ali, I'm coming to the UK. This is perfect. I still need an assistant. I ended up not having one on Return of the King. I definitely need one now. I've got a big big project coming up in London. Yeah, will you join me? Now I don't have a server job.

Alex Ferrari 14:19
I'm just I'm sorry. It's just so painful. It's so painful.

Ollie Kenchington 14:24
This is lightning striking twice in the absolute purest sense. As if the first time of saying no, it wasn't bad enough. This was 10 times worse because by this point, I'm you know what am I 2122 I'm a little bit arrogant now because I've got a pretty damn good job working for Apple. I'll have you know if you're

Alex Ferrari 14:44
21-22

Ollie Kenchington 14:46
I said I sent him an email back saying white No, I've got this. I've got this really good job. And I didn't really want to move to London. I kind of bit of a country bumpkin. I live in the sort of in the countryside in the southwest of the UK as well. I don't ever want to move to London. So I mean, what film is it? Which is like a classic, you know, if you need to know the film, then then just go away. And he would just read back again, really, really nice guy he has to say are like, you know, it sounds like you're, you're sad. Yeah. Don't worry about it. If you need to kind of know what the film is, it's probably not a good fit for you. And, yeah, don't worry about it. Best of luck. And I was so arrogant actually. I just like Yeah, okay. And I literally didn't think about it again for a number of years. Until I until I one day, I don't know why I think I was listening to a podcast, and he came on and he was talking about it. Is that nice career? wise, sir, yeah, it was, it wasn't thankfully. But he didn't mention his assistant a couple of times, who must have been the person he ultimately ended up hiring anyway. And it only dawned on me at that point, that what hit the film he was talking about was the Prisoner of Azkaban. And of course, he went on to do all of the Harry Potter films after that, and countless other films that we could, you know, sit here invest all day. And so I turned down the Return of the King and earned most the vast majority of the Harry Potter films. And And that brings us to today.

Alex Ferrari 16:11
Well, and that's the end of it. And that's the end of the show, guys. Thank you. I wouldn't, I wouldn't blame you for not speaking to me. Now. You know what, but look, I always am a big fan. I'm a big believer that things are supposed to happen the way they're supposed to happen, and you are where you're supposed to be as beautiful as those opportunities might have been. It would be the equivalent of Steven Spielberg calling me up and saying, I need an assistant to come and shadow me on a film I'm doing. And I say, you know what, I'm gonna I'm just gonna stay here in Orlando and finish my degree. Yes, film. Instead of going with you, master Spielberg, it's the equivalent. It's the equivalent of something like that. Twice. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. twice that the twice thing. The twice thing is what really gets me because the first one I could I could say, You know what? Yeah, exactly. Fine. I should start telling the story of leaving out the second part, because we're gonna paint the first one's painful. But yeah, there's some part of you like, you know what, there's a little bit of honor and trying to finish up what you started. I get all that. Yeah. But you know, that goes this man. You carry on with that story. And it's like, this guy's dead. And then, but I think what helps you is that it wasn't like it's someone that it's it's in the behind the scenes. It's like, you know, it's a guy who people don't know, off the street. You know?

Ollie Kenchington 17:40
Yeah, I mean, anyone who knows knows I went to, to the Harry Potter, the Warner Brothers studio tour for Harry Potter. Yeah. Yeah. It leaves them in just outside London.

Alex Ferrari 17:51
Now I want to know, yeah, one in London as well. There's one here in LA. Yeah.

Ollie Kenchington 17:55
Yeah. And I think I was first being the home of Harry Potter. It's a Yeah, I went there with my wife and my eldest child, a few years only a few months ago, actually. And the very last part after you've done the whole tour, and is blown, you're blown away by the very last room, you come to. Everyone just walks through it and just keeps going. But I stopped and I saw this woman sat down. I said, Oh, yeah, what's this room? What's this? The whole room is lined with boxes. And they're meant to be one boxes a bit like you're inside ollivanders. And there's all these different ones. And they all have names on it. As always, what is this? And she said, Oh, it's every single person that over the years, I've had anything to do with the Harry Potter franchise, cast crew, everyone has a one box with their name on it in this room? And, yeah, because it's only like a couple of inches by an inch. You know, these boxes are quite small that there's only a relatively small room. And so many people are streaming through and literally you're like, Oh, I'm at the end, you can see the exit. And off they go. And I'm like, Oh, so I start looking at all of them. And and I know what happened. Do you know where Peter door would be? And she's like, yeah, and she got this massive binder. She's like, right there today today. Anyway, she eventually finds him and points to his box. And I just for a minute as like, in an alternate universe, yes. In this is a wand box with my name on it. Yes. Yes. And I'm not in that universe.

Alex Ferrari 19:23
Well, anyway, I think we've beaten that horse to death. Yeah. Let's move on. We've all made mistakes. Let's move on. So so. So you got into color and you created this amazing course called directing color, which is one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on and to kind of dig into color and how humans deal with color. Well, first of all, how do human beings perceive color in the first place?

Ollie Kenchington 19:50
Well, there's kind of two sides to it. There's the biological side of it. So literally, how do we does the human visual system work? How do we see color and what are the differences? between people and what are the similarities. But then there's also the kind of cultural side of it and what, you know, what we, you know, various societies have come to accept as different meanings associated with the different colors. One of the things that the thing that interests interests me most is, which I discussed in the course is things like, what how we've evolved to pay less attention to certain colors and more attention to other colors, and how that affects our ability to kind of, within if you see these colors within a scene, or a photograph, or a painting, or whatever it might be, how that can cause distancing in some areas and things coming forward in others, and essentially, a way of creating depth just simply by having certain colors in the image. And that, that for me, I think, is fascinating. And we talk in the course about how we've grown evolved to become quite ignorant to blue, for example, because from an evolutionary point of view, there's absolutely no benefit in us being particularly particularly receptive to different shades of blue, the sky is is kind of almost becomes background noise, it's there all the time. We can't, you know, we can't procreate with the sky, although, you know, some people may have tried some, some crazy people, the and we, you know, we and it's also not a threat to us. So those, you know, those those things can you eat it is it going to eat me cannot procreate in it with it. That's the kind of stuff that drives biology and drives evolution. And the sky just doesn't play a part into that. It's also the rarest color in nature, there's very few animals that have lose. Exactly, exactly it. So are the cones in our eyes that are responsible for being receptive to different frequencies of the spectrum, the ones that are responsible for looking at blues, there's only 1% of them. So 99% of our vision, vision is looking at everything other than blue. And so that's why that's why core colors recede, and we, they don't physically receive they, of course, that in our perception, we're just ignoring them. So they, they've become less important to us. And if you look at the other side of that, which is well, what colors come forwards, it's these warm colors, these oranges, these reds, all based around flesh, blood, things that, from an evolutionary point of view are very important that we can distinguish. And the things that we can, you know, kind of our warnings to us, or, you know, we're a social animal, being able to kind of spot other people and, and interact with other people and dangers of you know, your blood. And when you see it, that they they all have these, these effects on us. And, you know, to the point where in some people that that mechanism is a bit over keyed, and, you know, my grandma used to faint if she ever saw blood, and it's actually quite a common thing. You know, that's actually that same mechanism just gone a bit haywire. That's, that's how ingrained in it it is that that these things kind of can produce emotional responses in us and physical responses as well, like high blood, higher blood pressure and elevated heart rate when we see reds is a really interesting phenomenon.

Alex Ferrari 23:10
Yeah, so so how do colors different colors affect different emotions? Because I know, obviously, if you walk into a Red Room, it's a very different feeling than if you walk into a pink room, or a green room or a yellow room. You have a different emotional attachment. So I know there is some attack there is some in theory, color theory, like well, red is this and green means that but it's also cultural as well. It doesn't go across the bow. Yeah. So okay.

Ollie Kenchington 23:42
Yeah, well read is a really good example because of course, in China read means so such different things to what it means in Western culture. And so yeah, I think culture plays a massive part of that, but not just not just your societal culture, but also the culture around how we consume entertainment. So you know, that which is far more kind of international, but you know, going to the cinema and watching TV, there's a there's a visual language that's established over, you know, course of 100 years, which is a language that we're all fluent in. And and it's a language that a lot of people, they can't articulate that they are fluent in that language, but it's there and, and that's always been a, an interesting subject for me, because, and also dangerous subject because, of course, when you do and filmmaking mistakes are not often forgiven very easily by a viewer because they are just so accustomed to watching high quality content. And and those established kind of visual cues and visual language that's there. And this is why, you know, people who don't go to film school have a bit more of a harder time because there's, you can be a very intuitive shooter, you can you can have a natural eye for composition, but there are things that a film school will teach you about visual language and about, you know, how framing so On a certain way, or using a certain kind of focal length of lens can affect people's perception of intention or, you know, if there's kind of a malice or a, you know, an opportunity or a threat or whatever it might be within a scene, and that that's the kind of stuff that, you know, I didn't go to film score, that's the kind of stuff that I've had to, you know, slowly over the last kind of 20 years, kind of get my head around. And, and, and it's taken longer than it would have done if I'd had the opportunity to go to a film school, but it's there, and it's a language that we're all fluent in, but you have to kind of tap into it and unlock it is to kind of, it's almost like a repressed memory there, you got to, you got to kind of tap into that and pull it out and go, alright, that's why this feels a certain way. And kind of definitely part of that.

Alex Ferrari 25:48
There is there's some I was I used to work when I first started out with the old, old time director, who had been doing it for years, and he told me something about color and never forgot. And he goes, if you want your greens to pop the shot before make it red, because the red will stay in your eye when it jumps to the green and enhance the green in a way. And I thought that was fascinating do Can you can you kind of delve into that a little bit.

Ollie Kenchington 26:17
Yeah, so it's basically it's fatigue, so you can fatigue your cones. So the receptors in your eyes are absorbing these, these frequencies. If if they are overstimulated or, or if you're looking at a certain color for for too long, they become fatigued, and they essentially weaken. And when they weaken, they when you sort of look at something else, then that frequency is lessened. And it's I mean, one of the basic tenants of color theory is the idea of complementary colors and what sits opposite a color on the on the color wheel is it's complimentary color. So for example, you This often happens in the summer of your sunbathing or if you're, you know, at the garden, and you've got your eyes closed, there's so much of a particular wavelength of light that's filtering now through your, through your eyelids. So this tinting everything that light light read, that when you then open your eyes, everything looks really green. And it's the same thing, you're fatiguing the red sensory receptors in your eyes or the cones that are looking at that frequency. And then when you then open them up or look at something else, you're then left with that as essentially a weak channel, which makes everything else look stronger. It's not that everything else has become stronger, it's that you've just lessened the response to a certain frequency, which makes everything else look stronger. So red and green, yellow and blue. And it really can work against you when you're calibrating. And in fact, this happened to me recently with rage, where there was a series of shots. And with an interview and absolutely graded, skin tones looked perfect. But the I think it was like the third or fourth time you cut back to this interview, the preceding shot was foliage, it was sunlight coming through some leaves, and it was on screen for maybe five, six seconds. And then when you look at the interview immediately afterwards, it looks like their skin is is all over the place. And it looks like you're the colorist has done a terrible job here. But if you look at those interview shots in isolation, they look absolutely fine. And so you end up having to color great that last interview shot actually differently and essentially deliberately wrong to counteract the sensation of someone having that green fatigue of their eyes when they then cut from that previous shot to the next shot. So it has massive implications on how people perceive your films. And a colorist needs to know this stuff because they need to, they need to kind of hopefully produce something that's consistent all the way through. And continuous contrast is another factor of this. And that that is the phenomenon where surrounding colors around a particular color will alter the way that it looks. And again, that's something that you have to be really conscious of, particularly with interviews with skin tones, you know, what colors are you using as your backdrop what colors are in the scene with your with your talent because they could be making skin tones look wrong when they're not? Or they could be making? You know, bad skin tones look, right, which which is another bad thing? Of course. You know, yeah, basically our eyes are constantly screwing us. And the colorist needs to understand the human visual system and all of these optical effects these tricks that our brains are playing on us and and this is why I said earlier I love the the meeting of kind of science and art and sort of technology and creativity. With color grading for me it's it takes both those boxes and people tend to be left hemisphere dominated kind of creative people or right hemisphere dominated sort of technical or organizational people and it's relatively rare to find people who are both and they hop back and forth between those two kind of parts of their brain very happily but for whatever reason I am one of those people and I do really like being able to play off that deep technical understanding of color and human biology and you know how cameras work, but also then the creative kind of implications and how that's woven into the creative art of filmmaking.

Alex Ferrari 30:13
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. Now, how should a director use or know about color when designing his or her shots in a film? Because it's something really I've seen some directors do it really well, and some not so much.

Ollie Kenchington 30:37
Yeah, I guess the danger of this is that sometimes you can come away with conversations and and it's one of the fears with directing color was that people might come away from it thinking that, oh, everything I've ever made is wrong, because I never thought about this, this, this and this. And I guess really, this is like the, you know, this is like a layer of varnish on the top, you know, it's the the boat if you like, or the the chair or whatever underneath could be just a stable and just a sturdy and just as well crafted, without that extra layer of lacquer. But you know, is it going to win prizes is it going to be one that someone picks over something else. And I think that's that's the thing is all of these techniques are things that are just kind of there honing it and honing it and refining it. And it's just an extra layer of gloss that will help make your product your film stand out above others. And one of the things that people can do is, is obviously focus on lighting, other things people can do is focus on, obviously, you know, wardrobe or art direction, or there's various different parts of a film that one can kind of put energies and resources into thinking that this is what will elevate my film. But the truth of it is that the things that win Oscars and the things that people talk about for years to come and Smashbox off his record, so records are the films that do all of those things, you know, every single element of that an indirect in Colorado, I talk about whiplash. And I think whiplash is a is a fantastic example of a film where every single asset sort of aspect of filmmaking is, is brought together and thought about and you end up with this result on screen. It's so captivating here, the camera movement, the lighting, or in the case of what I'm really interested in the color, and the fact that certain colors are used to kind of signify emotions within the in within the can the main character without you having to say it, you know, without having to spoon feed the audience. So this is where it gets really exciting for directors, I think, because it's an additional weapon in their storytelling arsenal.

Alex Ferrari 32:35
Well, yeah, it's kind of like the olden days, which uses that that language you were talking about, that's been established for over 120 years, which is the black guy, the black, the the guy, the bad guy wears black, and the good guy wears white. And that was in the silent days. That's the way it was, and it was established that way. And then if you know that, you can play on that, where then the black of the the bad guy could wear white, and the good guy could wear black. And you see that constantly going back and forth. And you can start playing with it once you understand it. And it's extremely powerful. It's extremely, extremely is.

Ollie Kenchington 33:09
I think people think that it isn't because it's such it's a kind of a subconscious thing is something that you're not like, you know, even as a colorist, I don't I didn't go and see whiplash the first time and come out thinking, Oh, really interesting that they've put that character in group, same green top that they put the dad's character in it. Now it's only once you kind of go back and digest and, and re analyze these things that you and often when you see stills of them in isolation that you think, Oh shit, yeah, this, they're doing this and they're doing that. I think that doesn't mean it's less valuable. Just because it's unconscious, it means it's more powerful. I think one of the very first sentences that you hear me say in in the directing color series is you 70% of all communication is nonverbal. And that's really, really important that the fact that you're not hearing it or you're not being spoon fed, it doesn't mean that it's less valuable, it means it's more valuable, because we are more accustomed to those subconscious cues than we are verbal and obvious cues. So they are, they should make up, you know, at least 70% of your film. They should make up a big chunk of how you're communicating. You shouldn't feel like it's not worthwhile because it's not in the script, or it's not, you know, obviously up in your face in the scene.

Alex Ferrari 34:25
No, if you look at a movie that we all seen Star Wars, you know, Darth Vader is in black. And you know if Darth Vader was wearing pink, a completely different energy. I've seen that version. Yes, I have actually, I've been to some few Comic Cons myself. Um, but then you've got Luke who's wearing white. You've got Han Solo who's wearing black and white because he's a good guy and a bad guy. You've got Obi Wan, who's wearing Brown, which is an earthy color, which signifies wisdom and then you got Yoda who's green. Which synthesize knowledge and wisdom as well, if I'm not mistaken, that earthly color? And those are kind of certain cues that were associated with those colors? Correct?

Ollie Kenchington 35:09
Yeah, well, particularly me greens an interesting one, because yes, it does. Certainly, if you look over a very broad kind of aggregate, you know, kind of cultural perceptions of green, they green has, obviously, all kinds of connections to do with the natural world do with serenity to do with peace. And, and, you know, kind of like sprites. And, you know, there's, there's loads of different kind of, like Easter, for example, obviously, Christianity kind of bent that towards its own purposes, but celebrations of spring and shine, bringing green things into home, and you know, those those things have gone on for millennia. And there's all kinds of associate positive associations with green but at the same time, just because of, I don't know what it is, I mean, mainly because of skin tones, I think green is something that you don't often see as a color choice in many films, because it because it clashes so terribly with with skin tones, and green is also looks a little bit kind of, I don't know, kind of it can it can very easily veer from kind of fresh spring green to a kind of a horrible kind of muddy green that just doesn't feel good on your

Alex Ferrari 36:23
Pure green, pure green.

Ollie Kenchington 36:24
Yeah, exactly. And, in fact, again, you know, talking of whiplash, in the very last episode of The directing color series, I break down, whiplash and green comes up, because it's used quite heavily in scenes where marsteller, that the main guy in the film, that his character is the, they want to show that his character is being kind of assaulted by these kind of outside pressures. And there's a really good scene at the beginning, where he's walking back to his apartment. And as he's walking through the kind of communal areas, there's lots of loud noises, and there's lots of kind of people and not really doing anything wrong, but clearly he's he doesn't like this, it kind of is ruining his focus as it were. And the whole scenes of vivid green, and they're letting those colors leach into a skin tones. And it's used really effectively in that film to show toxicity and danger. And, you know, this, this kind of sickness that which is which in that film is mainly kind of like a mental synchronous, more mental break. Yeah, and the fact that he does kind of have a breakdown, you know, and ends up hurting himself to try and win the approval of his teacher and, you know, and they but then what they do is they placed that exact same green in the wardrobe of the dad and also the guy who's initially in the band do he has to play better than in order to kind of win his place in the band. And so they both were exactly the same colored green shirt in that film. So green can be used actually and is often used these days as a kind of a bit of a sick kind of color and a bit of a toxic kind of feel to it, which is a mental illness which is an interesting kind of more modern slant on green

Alex Ferrari 38:10
Well against institutional like in a you know, in a mentally and mental Insane Asylum, you're going to see green somewhere.

Ollie Kenchington 38:18
Yeah, in fact, interesting. I've just literally this morning, I've just delivered a project for the Natural History Museum in London, who I am do a lot of work for I was color grading a little piece that they've just done, they've got to show up at the moment called venom. And it's just it's all about different snakes from around the world and, and how and how that venom is used in, in medicines in certain parts of the world and all kinds of stuff. And there's this little film and I was just grading it for them. And I noticed they sent an offline reference that the editor just done a lot of light grade on for me to see the kind of direction that they were heading in about I was essentially creating it from scratch, but just referencing the offline, I noticed that whenever they cut to the B roll of the snake, the snakes kind of shooting venom or in case you know in like they call them aquariums. The snakes live in

Alex Ferrari 39:08
There in zoo's, they're they're in zoo's.

Ollie Kenchington 39:11
But in the Natural History Museum they have they have like them in glass sided.

Alex Ferrari 39:15
Yeah, I forgot. Well, we call them like, I don't even want to call them here. But yeah, I know like that. Yeah. Then anyway, venomous pit I don't know.

Ollie Kenchington 39:22
Yeah, whatever, whatever the hell it is. And I noticed that that the editor pushed quite a bit of green into those shots. And I was like, Okay, I kind of see where they're going with this, but they'd also pushed it into the interviews. And clearly and I hadn't, you know, after having having a chat with them, I could see where they were going through the whole pieces about venom. They wanted to kind of feel like this kind of like dangerous thing. They've got these kind of slow mo shots on the fence and flecks of snakes shooting out of their fangs. But it just felt so wrong with the with the interview. So I ended up pulling it out of all of the interviews and just pushing it into specific scenes and blocks of B roll where it kind of works. And, you know, it's just a little gentle tint of green. And actually, they dialed it back quite a bit. I said to them that you don't need to force feed it to people, you don't need to kind of looked like a comic book the way they'd done it. And, you know, it's just a subtle tint that you pick up on in the highlights and in the whites, and it does the job. You know, it's telling you that this is a kind of a dangerous, sort of toxic substance that they're dealing with.

Alex Ferrari 40:24
Now, besides whiplash, what are some other movies that really are the directors who really use color to great effect?

Ollie Kenchington 40:32
Oh, it's, well, I mean, actually, Peter Jackson is one of the ones that I think is just very clever things with color and color palettes. I always remember it. Sorry, carry on.

Alex Ferrari 40:46
No, no, no, I hear I hear the colors is really good. But I'm sorry. Good. Have it good. Yeah, let's move on. Damnit.

Ollie Kenchington 40:57
The Hobbit is really interesting. I really like the fact that in the hobbit films, there's this color palette that's established, which is pushed into the, the kind of the leaf color. So there's a really, I think it was in one of the trailers. So a lot of people probably seen it, there's a bit where Frodo, Frodo, of course, is Bilbo. Bilbo climbs to the top of a tree to see where they are, they're a little rock in a forest and the last and he climbs to the top of a tree and that scene, where you see the whole of the sort of canopy, the top of the canopy of trees in this big forest. It's so subtle, but the colors are just pushed into a realm of wear, which doesn't mimic our reality, it doesn't mimic our world. And it does a really amazing job of making you feel like you're looking at a fantastical, almost alien landscape. And it's so subtle, it's just very slightly pushed into a, you know, into an area. It's kind of magenta berry reds, and kind of slightly more cyanea greens than than you would expect and that you would see in normal trees on earth. And it's a really interesting use of color to kind of help with that sense of otherworldliness. But with familiar objects, and I think that's used really effectively and Peter Jackson, I think in other films of his, you know, it does some really interesting things with contrast, and with saturation. I can't remember who the name escapes me right now, but I can't remember who directed Tinker Tailor Soldier spa. That's another film that I often reference when I'm thinking about the use of color. And it's how effective it is at storytelling, because it's an interesting because it's a thriller, it's a who've done it. And it kind of comes back to what you're saying earlier about, you know, if the body is always in black, and the good is always in white, what if we play around with that and Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy plays around with the idea of clarity and the idea of high contrast because that we have a measurable pleasure response when we see high contrast images, you can actually see, you know, the the readouts from if you have all those probes on your brain, there's an increase in brain activity, when we see high contrast images, we find the more attractive because the brain is finds it easier to tell if things are in or out of focus if they're high contrast. And of course, contrast plays a big part in autofocus systems in camera so that that edge contrast that detail that sharpness is is is pleasurable to watch. And, you know, you can see this evidenced in photography as well, if you walk down any kind of supermarket or any anywhere where they're selling lots of magazines, you'll see their old glossy covers, they're all high contrast, you know that they're doing everything they can to make those pleasing high contrast images. And then you've got something like Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, where what they want is for you to constantly feel like you don't know what's going on. It's a it's a thriller, where it's not until then the very last scene that you've read, the reveal happens and most thrillers kind of like to leave clues they like to reward, you know, like doggy treats for the viewer, like all that that's happened, you know that that's a film where they they do everything they can to make sure that doesn't happen. They don't want you having any reason to suspect one person over another. So you go through the whole film wondering, is it Tinker Tailor, Soldier Spy, and one of the ways that they enforce that is by using making the whole thing incredibly low contrast is very gray in that film. And the colors are very muted, and it literally taps into a lack of clarity or the viewer is never given the opportunity to have any clarity on who may have been the perpetrator or who may be this mole. And I think that's a really interesting use of contrast, though, as I said, I can't remember the director's name right now. But yeah, again, there's some great examples out there.

Alex Ferrari 44:52
The the two movies that come to mind always is Emily, which was just stunningly done. Anything that was entered And does because was just call it total trips and the matrix with the matrix look versus the real world look and see, I mean, that look had never I'd never seen anything like the matrix when it came out in 99. Like there was just, and by the way ages so well, I mean, you could watch them right now and it aged super well. But look at that look, which is that technology and sickly like you're not well, like you're not supposed to be here, kind of as opposed to the real world, which is more vibrant and Well, no, that depends on where if you're in the that matrix to then you're in that the rave, which was very nice. But like,

Ollie Kenchington 45:45
That's, that's what I was gonna say. I mean, you're absolutely right. And were aware those scenes change and there's location change, you can see the color developing with the plot. So as the films continue the film, it's not a one trick pony. They're really thinking about how color represents different locations and different you know how they want so you've got lots of browns and reds when they're in you know, as ion and there's loads of tribal kind of music and you know, music and color. These are all things that kind of helping drive that story forwards.

Alex Ferrari 46:13
Have you ever seen the movie Speed Racer? No, I don't think I have. So it's it's warshawsky brother, Sam, guys who directed the matrix, right? Yeah, get it on blu ray, if you can. And because it is easily the most colorful film I've ever seen in my life. And it is, if you remember that cartoon. Yeah, they basically just took the cartoon amped up all the color and saturation, and did such a mess. But it's like, I think the reason why it's so and I love for you to watch and hear what you think of it. I think the reason one of the reasons it didn't do well, because it's actually a good movie, if you know what you're getting into. But yeah, the colors are so vibrant. And so in your face, that I think it was too much.

Ollie Kenchington 47:05
I think it was I say, just quickly googled it and done an image search on Google, which, which by the way is a massive top tip from me, for anyone who's thinking of developing developing mood boards or think planning, you know, China looks with their film, just Google the name of a film or a picture or a photographer or a filmmaker or anyone and just go to the image searches, I can't tell you what an effective way is for quickly, very quickly digesting color palettes. A really good demonstration of this I always like and your viewers, your viewers, your listeners can try this out themselves is to type well make sure they don't do this if they have a sensitive disposition, but to type horror into Google and then just go to the image search. And it's fascinating what you find what you find is essentially blacks whites and red, pure pure primary red. It's It's It's almost, you know, with the odd bit of sort of sick green thrown in, it's, you know, it's fascinating, it's a very good way to get a feel for the general color palettes and looks that are embedded in most of them. So if I type in Speed Racer, and go to an image set, which is what I did last year talking I can see exactly what you mean those vivid comic book blues and reds and sky blues film as well which are

Alex Ferrari 48:17
Put to an extent that it's not it's not even I've never seen before and I don't think it has been was so intense, especially the blu ray. If you watch it on blu ray it is. It's so intense. But I love for you to watch it's it's a fascinating thought, especially with color don't call it great anything after you watch it though your eyes will be wiped for at least a day.

Ollie Kenchington 48:39
I was gonna say it on the on the topic of films where they really go for it with color. I mean, it's like, you know, there's no subtlety involved really at all. Hugo is a classic one. Scorsese goes to town with that and the way it's embedded in the in the art direction in the wardrobe and the makeup and everything. Amazing. Yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know. But I think that the important thing to remember in every single case and every single one of those films we've just mentioned, is the color is serving the narrative. Yes, it's it's it's never there for its own sake. It's never there. Already. Just Just Yeah, exactly. Just to make things look pretty. If you want to make something just look pretty, keep it natural keep skin tones looking normal, make it nice and glossy and high contrast and, you know, add a little bit of golden light into it and you know, Bish, bash Bosh, if you want to try something that serves the narrative and makes people feel a certain way and, and dry is the story and, and in certain cases becomes even a character into its own right, then you know that that's where color can be really powerful.

Alex Ferrari 49:41
There's a scene in I just directed our new film and there's a scene in it where and I colored it as well. Were at the beginning there at the bottom of the hill and at the bottom of the hill. It's all very colorful, but as they go up the hill up these long flight of stairs. It's almost you know, an epic journey. It's Slowly cools all the way to the very top. They're nice, it's cooled, it's muted, and it's subtle. You will, unless you're looking for it, you won't notice it. But it was done very purposefully, because then at that point of the journey, now it starts getting harder and harder, and they're not as happy as they were when they first got on the journey. So

Ollie Kenchington 50:18
Yeah, no, it's a nice trick, it's a really nice, there's so many things that colors can do, it's still it's still so massively under appreciated by fair, which is, you know, not in a nice little you don't appreciate as type way just in a, you never even know you exist,

Alex Ferrari 50:33
I don't even know.

Ollie Kenchington 50:36
I guess it's like the old saying, you know, if you if you notice the editing, then the editor has done a bad job is, is sometimes feels a bit like that. But I do feel like color grading is, is it's becoming so much more part of people's general awareness now at a much lower end of the kind of filmmaker spectrum. And that's because of the point of entry, the price point, and the accessibility of it through things like DaVinci Resolve lite, and, and cheaper hardware that can run, you know, programs that are operating in the 32 bit float, you know, color spaces that that just couldn't happen on, you know, laptops and desktop computers, if you have to go to workstations in the past, and that that's opened up the floodgates in a sense, but that doesn't mean that there suddenly understands everything that we're talking about there. These are things that come through study and through, you know, talking to colorist who've been doing it a long time and research and experience and practice. And this is I guess why I think directing color is is an important call. I mean, I would say this, I made it, but I do think it's.

Alex Ferrari 51:42
So tell us a little bit about the course.

Ollie Kenchington 51:45
Well, it was born out of the fact that means Scott who who runs me said we were chatting about the fact that there were no color grading courses on Amazon at that time. And, you know, there's all lots of practical filmmaking courses. And there were some editing courses. But But color didn't kind of get a look in an eye as a color of thought that that should be addressed. And here's like, fun make us a course. Oh, then it was like, Okay, what do we do? And I guess the obvious thing is to make a straightforward color grading course. And there's a huge appetite for that. And we will be doing that. And we'll be really, you know, going going to town on that side of things and making a big masterclass about color grading. But initially, what I proposed to Scott was that we did something that was shorter and more kind of easily digestible, and kind of got the whole thing kind of conversation started around color. And, and then it was like, Well, what do we choose? And I, the thing that kind of swung it for me was I run a film school or training academy called Cora Academy, and we are a Blackmagic certified training partner, and I'm a Blackmagic certified trainer. So for years now, I've been teaching people DaVinci Resolve, I've been teaching people color grading, and probably the most common thing I get asked about is, you know, from editors, or directors or filmmakers, is I want to learn about color, can you teach me DaVinci Resolve? And over the years, I kind of got sort of bored of sayings, people will hang on, what do you want to do you want to learn how to color or do you want to learn how to operate DaVinci Resolve and in their, in their minds, there wasn't a separation between those two things that as far as I'm concerned, I want to learn how to color great, therefore Teach me DaVinci Resolve, because I will know that that you know that I that's like saying I want to learn about the world and teach me how to drive so that you might only drive to the end of the road. That means you're never going to learn about the world. And it's kind of the same thing. So what I started to do, and I've been doing this for years was I developed a color what I what I called a color theory course. But really it's you know, it's not really it makes it sound a bit dry, but they're actually in color sounds much better. And essentially, it was a one day course I said I didn't insist but I would say to people look, I'd strongly recommend that. If you've never color graded at all. You come on this color theory course first. And we talk about the why first, you know, we talked about why you would want to do something we break down films where this is done. We talk about chroma subsampling. And how do you present division of popular it turned out it's been it's been one of our most popular courses. And so when it came to kind of deciding Well, what should we kind of pick to do as a as a shorter kind of one hour ish course to get things started with them said I thought well that this seems like a good course but you know, is a very dry core. So I had to kind of think of a format for how we could make that more accessible and also just more entertaining Because ultimately, you're asking people to pay money to sit there and watch something for an hour Sharon I should really make something that people want to sit down and watch. And now that's where the idea came to basically piggyback on the on the back of a commercial that my film production company Cora films was making. And so essentially killing two birds with one stone, we were kind of doing a behind the scenes of the shooting a commercial for these for a company. And then we sort of talking to the camera about why I was doing certain things and how we developed a color palette for that film. And then it's intercut with stuff where I'm a grading suite and breaking down, you know, grades. And

Alex Ferrari 55:32
It was, it was it was great, I saw it. And it really is something that we you know, as filmmakers need and I don't think there is much out there about this. But the theory and especially it's done in a very entertaining way. It's very digestible, and you can get in and get out very quickly. And it's it's something that I think you'll become a better director after you watch it. And for everyone listening, I'll definitely put links to the course in the show notes as well. Lovely, lovely. Now, I want to ask you a few questions that I asked all my guests. Okay, this is kind of like the lightning round. What advice What advice would you give a filmmaker wanting to break into the business today? Don't whatever you do, turn down Peter Doyle twice. When opportunity knocks, and the horse is literally have a gift in its mouth. Do not turn away. Okay, great. Can you tell me what book has the biggest impact on your life or career?

Ollie Kenchington 56:32
Oh, that's an interesting one. Well as a colorist, I think one of the one of the books that was instrumental and really helpful when I first thought went from I'm really interested in color and playing with color and to I'm now a professional colorist, and something that really helped me was the colorist handbook. Great witch. Yeah, Alexis van Herman is just the dawn. And that book is just chock full of really useful information. I can't recommend it highly enough. You know, that was that was a huge book for me. In terms of filmmaking, I did by the Peter Jackson's autobiography, which talks about his staying out as a filmmaker and his career goes right from him, you know, messing around making films as a small child

Alex Ferrari 57:25
Horror movie sue, by the way.

Ollie Kenchington 57:27
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Alex Ferrari 57:28
Very graphic horror movies. Graphic Yes. If I remember correctly,

Ollie Kenchington 57:32
If you're under 18 don't don't go and watch them straight away. Actually, they they've aged quite badly. So

Alex Ferrari 57:39
They were bad. They were badly age when he made them, sir. Think he would say the same thing? Yeah,

Ollie Kenchington 57:45
Yeah, yeah. Um, but I think that book was was really interesting. I mean, any any book, any biography, Autobiography of filmmakers, I find really fascinating. I just think, you know, directors and filmmakers generally are most often in life, very interesting people and seeing how their careers developed. I think it's really, really fun and informative.

Alex Ferrari 58:08
Cool. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Ollie Kenchington 58:19
Learning to say no, probably, I'm still quite bad at it. I sometimes feel kind of duty bound to do things for clients or do things for people who aren't even clients that that really anyone else applied? Really? What Why are you? Why are you doing that way, but

Alex Ferrari 58:40
That's how I got you. That's how I got you on the show.

Ollie Kenchington 58:45
Why are you talking to this guy? I mean, I see I see a guy who's clearly in need of some kind of support. I can't help but stop

Alex Ferrari 58:57
Obviously obviously, obviously. Now,

Ollie Kenchington 59:01
I think learning to say no is a really good, a really good thing. In fact, I read something really interesting in about Steve Jobs years ago, which was that he never stayed in a job for for more than a week if you didn't like it and I think generally, you know, I try and kind of remember that and it's sometimes you don't need to know what you want. You just need to know what you don't want and know that you should say no to things that you don't want and know and have faith that ultimately that's going to lead you towards the thing that you did want even if you didn't know what it was

Alex Ferrari 59:32
Very good, very good answer. Now what are three of your favorite films of all time?

Ollie Kenchington 59:37
Oh, my number one these are really these are not filmmakers films. I'm just gonna say this now.

Alex Ferrari 59:43
It's fine.

Ollie Kenchington 59:44
I'm not I'm not going to come up with some

Alex Ferrari 59:46
Citizen. Citizen Kane 400 blows

Ollie Kenchington 59:52
Do you know why just gonna be purely like pure entertainment? Sure. I love I love Wedding Crashers is one of my favorites.

Alex Ferrari 59:59
It's a fun film.

Ollie Kenchington 1:00:06
Really my favorite film is a film which for some reason, still completely gone out of my brain sideways. There we go, Oh, yeah, went sideways is a really underappreciated film. I think it's some of the best writing some of the best acting.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:23
Now Tyler Payne, Sean, fantastic film, fantastic film. And

Ollie Kenchington 1:00:28
I think whiplash has to be in my top three as well, I do. I do really, really like that film. intense. But the thing is, if you if you if you think about it too long, you quite quickly come up a list of about 100 films. But those three that come to mind

Alex Ferrari 1:00:45
Very cool. And now where can people find you online?

Ollie Kenchington 1:00:48
So as I saw, I run two businesses. So from a film production side of view, and for me as a colorist, that all goes through Korro films, which is Korrofilms.com. Korro is spelt in a really stupid way, just to make it harder for people to find me online.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:04
Sure. Fantastic. Marketing. Fantastic.

Ollie Kenchington 1:01:06
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So that's k o double r o, it means nothing. It's a made up word.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:14
It's gibberish. It's absolute gibberish.

Ollie Kenchington 1:01:17
It really is. And so I thought that would be a great thing to use for a business.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:22
And you are you are, you are the the poster child for for high end marketing. I gotta say,

Ollie Kenchington 1:01:31
I really had a business development is my middle name. So yeah korrofilms.com is the film production company. And Coro. academy.com is the film, school we do. We've recently launched an eight week Film Academy, which is very novel is basically every course I've ever taught and everything that lives in my brain about filmmaking, rammed down your throat over every day, five days a week for eight weeks. And yeah, and it's basically meant to be a three year degree in eight weeks. And it's followed up with followed up with a three month mentorship scheme immediately afterwards. And it's kind of it's meant to be my kind of two fingers up to higher education, particularly in this country. And the fact that I don't know what it's like in the States, but in the UK at the moment, if you go to film school, if you go and do a three year degree anywhere, you're coming out with minimum, you know, 30 40,000 pounds worth of debt, which dollars,

Alex Ferrari 1:02:33
That's Yeah, I think it's a lot worse, there isn't, oh, my god, you're talking about 60 to $100,000. So that's, you know, probably like 80,000 pounds.

Ollie Kenchington 1:02:42
The thing is in this country, that's that that model, which we've adopted, but it's only relatively new, so like, even when I went to university, which was only 18 years ago, I left with, I think it was just over 10,000 pounds worth of it's

Alex Ferrari 1:02:56
Exactly how much I left with Yeah, yeah,

Ollie Kenchington 1:02:58
Yeah. which at the time was like, you know, felt like, low, you know, just, it just keeps going up and up and up. But But, you know, I was one of the first people that went to university when you had to pay But literally, like, end of the 90s. And all before that, it was all grant based system, and so you didn't cost you anything to go to university. So it's basically my kind of response to that was, you know, basically Fuck that, let's, let's just cram that information into your head, you can take it and if you can't, then, you know, go go and do another course. But it's a kind of unapologetic film school in eight weeks course. But we also do one, two and three day courses certified black magic courses for resolve, which you take an exam at the end, and you can become a Blackmagic Certified Professional user. So yeah, we do quite a lot.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:47
Very cool. My work, man, Ollie, thank you so much. It has been an absolute pleasure geeking out with you about color, and all sorts of things. And arguably one of the greatest stories of missed opportunity I've ever heard in my life, which I will now recite anytime I speak publicly. Yeah. Ollie, thanks again, man. I appreciate it.

Ollie Kenchington 1:04:11
Pleasure. Thanks so much.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:13
This is what happens when you get to post guys in a room together. We just start talking and talk kid and talk. And by Listen, I hope you guys got a lot out of that episode. Ollie dropped some really great knowledge bombs on the on the tribe today and I just wanted you I hope if you listen to this episode, all the way that you understand the power of color and how to now incorporate color on set in pre production, and also in color grading to really make your films and projects stand apart. Now if you want to link to the course that Ollie created called directing color, just head over to the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com/246 and MZed who is the author of the course as well with Ali is having a sale these next few days. So definitely Take advantage and head over there ASAP. And if you've not already, please head over to filmmakingpodcast.com And leave a five star review for the show. It really helps us out in the rankings and helps us get to more filmmakers. So thank you again, so much for listening guys. And as always, keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive and I'll talk to you soon.

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YOUTUBE VIDEO

LINKS

  • Directing Color with Ollie Kenchington
  • Korro Films
  • Ollie Kenchington – Twitter
  • [easyazon_link identifier=”B006LXQID8″ locale=”US” tag=”whatisbroke-20″]Amélie[/easyazon_link]
  • [easyazon_link identifier=”B001CEE1YE” locale=”US” tag=”whatisbroke-20″]The Matrix[/easyazon_link]
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IFH 244: Inside the Worst Movie Ever Made (The Room) with Robyn Paris

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Right-click here to download the MP3

Many of you know I have an obsession with Tommy Wiseau’s horrible masterpiece The Room. The joy I have when I watch is something that can’t put into words. So when I ran into Robyn Paris, she played Michelle in The Room, I lost my mind and completely fanboyed out. If you don’t know about The Room check out the trailer for The Disaster Artist, the film about the making of the worst film ever made.

She was awesome to chat to so I invited here on the show to discuss her experience making The Room, how much [easyazon_link identifier=”B077TCV2L4″ locale=”US” tag=”whatisbroke-20″]The Disaster Artist[/easyazon_link] got right and to talk about her new mockumentary series about the actors of The Room called The Room Actors: Where Are They Now? 

Robyn is current crowdfunding on Kickstarter to finish the series. If you are a Room fan like me give her and the other Room actors a few bucks so we can continue laughing.

Here’s a link to the Kickstarter!

Enjoy my honest, entertaining and even educational chat with Robyn Paris.

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Alex Ferrari 5:24
I would like to welcome to the show Robyn Paris, thank you so much for being on the show. Robyn.

Robyn Paris 5:28
Thank you for having me, Alex.

Alex Ferrari 5:30
It was it's been it's a joy. It's a pleasure. I'm giddy to have you on and talk about a talk about a project. I'm sure you're you're tired of talking about this point.

Robyn Paris 5:43
Well, I know I can't escape it. So I might as well embrace it and have fun with it.

Alex Ferrari 5:46
You know it for everybody who's who's isn't aware. Anyone who's listened to this podcast knows that I am a raving the room fan. I am fascinated with the movie. And Robin and I met at Sundance this this year. And we actually Robin is in the movie a little bit if you want to talk a little bit about about our movie, the one we did together, we could talk a little bit about that before we jump into the room. Sure. We're shooting the the, the the party scene, and lo and behold, Robin is there. And my producer comes like Robin Parrish, the actress from the room is here. She wants to be in your movie. I'm like, I'm like No, she's not. There's no possible way that she actually is here. And he's like, No, she is there she is I'm like, Oh my God, we have to write a scene for her right now. And put her in the movie if she wasn't in the movie. So how did you what was from your perspective because I haven't talked I talked to because that that whole movie on the edge of and for everyone who doesn't know it's on the corner of ego and desire, my new film, that's such a blur to me the whole process? Because it's done so quickly. From your perspective, how did you get introduced to the film? How did you say, Hey, I'll be in it. And so from your perspective, I just want to know how you felt about it and how you got into it first of all?

Robyn Paris 7:07
Yeah, I mean, it's a little bit of a blur for me too. Because it's like, it was like wanting, it was really, right. And we were at a party at Sundance, and I was just talking to a few people. And they were saying that you were doing this film and that you were in the next room shooting some scenes. And I was like, Oh, that's really cool. And then somebody mentioned that somebody on your you guys had recently seen the room the night before

Alex Ferrari 7:34
We literally the whole crew sat down and saw the room. I was the only one who had seen it before. And the experience was, as you can imagine.

Robyn Paris 7:43
Yes. I mean, yes, I get it. I love the room like a fan. I love seeing it. It's so crazy. It's so funny. So yes, they mentioned you guys were doing you were just in the room and that there had been a scene in your movie where one of the main characters talked about how the room was his favorite movie. And that Oh, somebody said, Oh, wouldn't it be funny if you were in in this movie? And you like just showed up? And I was like, Yeah, that'd be great. I'd be happy to do that. Just let me know what you want me to do. Right? I'm just here dancing, having a few drinks. So they need a movie. And the thing I know they wouldn't I think they talked to you. And then I talked to you. And then like about 15 minutes later, 20 minutes later, I was we were shooting the scene? I think so.

Alex Ferrari 8:28
It seemed it seemed like that. I think it was I think it even was a little bit more than 15 or 20 minutes. Because from the moment that they said that you were you wanted to be in the movie to the point when we got to you. It's probably an hour. Okay. It was just because we were shooting that like, you know, one of the biggest scenes of the movie. It was Yeah. And we were battling drunks. And it was like, you know, trying to get them out of the sights. And it was insane. It was

Robyn Paris 8:51
How you did it. I'm amazed that You shot me in the middle of that party. Because it was really loud. There's a lot of dancing like tons of drunk.

Alex Ferrari 9:00
It was tons of drunks. I was battling off a drunk drunk actors that I would recognize who will remain nameless. Other people in the industry that would just you know, Hey, man, you making movies like it was just, it was it was insane. And I had no security to block everything off. So I was just trying to, you know, the funniest thing is that we were shooting one of the scenes and literally as I yelled action, I turned around, and there must have been 20 people with iPhones recording it. And I'm yelling and I'm thinking to myself, you guys are all industry. Are you kidding? You've never been on a set before, let alone a set with like three people. It's not like we're not on this set of Avengers. You know, this is not that impressive, guys, I don't understand. But 130 in the morning when you're drunk and you see a camera and some lights apparently everyone goes crazy. It's right at Sundance and as their and we shot our scene in and I think five minutes.

Robyn Paris 9:58
Yep, I believe it was two takes max and five minutes.

Alex Ferrari 10:03
It was two takes you did fantastic. And a good friend of ice Sebastian played your agent.

Robyn Paris 10:08
That's right. And I had just met him the night the day before. Right? knew him. At least that was fun.

Alex Ferrari 10:14
But that was and then that was it. And then you were gone. And I was gone. Yeah. Next morning, I was like, Oh, that's so funny. I was in a movie last night. And then I say, like, what? Like, yeah, I was in a feature last night. Yeah, shot some scenes for a movie last night at a party at Sundance. And every, you know, you're not the only one RB who also plays a part in the movie, RV. bato had the exact same thing. He was in another party. And he actually kept telling me, I gotta go, I gotta go shoot a movie. And they're like, you've got a screening? What? Like, no one understood. Like, he's like, No, I'm actually in a movie. What? Like, no one, no one got it. And then I send you the trailer, and you're like, Oh, my God, it's a real movie.

Robyn Paris 10:57
It looks so good. I am so blown away that you shot that in 36 hours. It was unbelievable.

Alex Ferrari 11:05
It was done quickly with Josh. And it was an experience. So. But thank you, again for being in the movie it and it was an absolute thrill to work with you for those five minutes. Well, thank you for a minute of it. It was super fun. I can't wait to see your finished movie. So how did you get into the film into the movie? And how did you get into the business in the first place?

Robyn Paris 11:27
So I moved to LA and to the end of 2001 to be an actor. And the first audition I had when I got to LA was for the room? No, yes, the very first audition, I responded to an ad in backstage West. And you know, set my headshot. And they called Greg sestero was doing the casting, who ends up playing Tommy's best friend. And he called me and I went to the set audition. And so that was the first you know, movie I was in. When I got to LA

Alex Ferrari 11:56
Literally off the turnip truck. You can straight the room. The casting? What are the odds? I mean, like that's like the first day of literally, you get off the bus this like, oh, let's just go over to the room. The most craziest experience of your life, literally, the timing couldn't have been better.

Robyn Paris 12:17
I was from how you look at it. I know it could not have it's really like a combination of the two both both Best and Worst thing to ever

Alex Ferrari 12:26
Now what was the casting process like for the room?

Robyn Paris 12:29
It was insane. I mean, if you've seen the movie, the disaster artists, they capture it pretty well. I came to the set. It was broad daylight it was there were ton of people there. And Tommy had a stand in front of a camera and he was like, Okay, now your best friend just died, go. And then he'd want you to be like, wailing with tears. And then 30 seconds later, he'd say, you just won the lottery go. And then if you didn't switch on a dime, he'd be like, what's wrong with you? Your best friend died? He have no, you have no heart. You know, and that's how it went. So it was a miracle that anybody got cast and that I don't know. I mean, I think I got cast because I showed up first to the audition. I was the first one there. And I talked to Tommy one on one. And he just asked me a bunch of questions about myself. And then I at the end of the conversation, he was like, Okay, I think I costal and I'm like, do you want me to audition or

Alex Ferrari 13:26
So you didn't audition?

Robyn Paris 13:28
I actually did. I did audition. So I you know, more people showed up and then I did the standard audition with everybody else I read the chocolate is a symbol of love scene with Greg Ellery who ends up playing Steven. And then I did the whole chicken, you know, at what act like a chicken. That's one of the things I throw in that Tommy said, Your best friend just died. You won the lottery act like a chicken. And so I did all that. And yeah, so I did audition. But I but I'm still convinced that the actual reason I got it was because I was the first one there.

Alex Ferrari 13:58
So I mean, this is your this is your first big Hollywood audition. And I use that term very loosely. Yeah. Very, very loosely. You have no other auditions to kind of refer back to.

Robyn Paris 14:12
So you got in Chicago and I had audition there. But yet none in LA.

Alex Ferrari 14:17
Right. So no la auditions to for you to kind of go back to how many people on the as far as the cast were concerned. We're kind of newbies in the sense like have maybe done one thing or two, but you know, didn't seem that anybody was like super super seasoned other than my mother, except,

Robyn Paris 14:33
I think oh, yeah, the mother may be but every last person was super new. I mean, yeah, you know, I think to agree to do the room. You probably had to be pretty naive. I just thought no one would ever see it. I knew it was bad, also, so you wouldn't ever see it.

Alex Ferrari 14:52
Did you read it? Was there a script?

Robyn Paris 14:54
No, he wouldn't show us the script. There was a script, but he would not show it to the actors because, quote, I quote Tommy, you're just going to try to steal it. So he thought we were going to steal it. And so he wouldn't share the whole script. So we'd get like three pages. And then he'd say, okay, you're going to shoot these three pages tomorrow. And we'd get it a lot the day, or maybe the day before. And we'd have to just memorize those lines. And I never knew where the scene Val in the context of the entire movie or the narrative, had no idea what you know, which, which scene came first, which scene came set, like, that's why it was so hard to get any kind of our character arc or anything,

Alex Ferrari 15:31
Which was, which was interesting, because now that makes so much more sense when you watch the room. Because there doesn't seem to be like a beginning, middle, or arc or anything. It's just like you have you. You as actors have no idea what's going on. You're just kind of thrown into a scene and like, act. Like what happened before? Did I did I get shot before? Then my mother died before like, what? And that's every scene is like that, which you have to argue is quite genius, if that's what you're going for.

Robyn Paris 16:01
Like for total confusion on the part of the actors and characters and every scene

Alex Ferrari 16:05
And as a crew as well and everybody else as well. Yeah. Now, how was how was the crew while you were working? And how many how long were you actually on? on the on the set meaning of shooting on production?

Robyn Paris 16:20
I was there for a few weeks. I came in. I was a midseason replacement. Juliet who plays Lisa was originally Michelle. And the first three leases quit. And I no surprise, surprise, I think it was when they realized they'd have to do a love scene. And they were like, Okay, I'm out of here. So yeah, and then so Lisa was playing Michelle, she to lease and then they needed to fill the Michelle characters. So that's when they did additional auditions. And that's when I came in and filled in the spiral. So

Alex Ferrari 16:55
They were ready shooting. They were already shooting when you did the audition.

Robyn Paris 16:58
Exactly. They had already shot a cup for a couple months.

Alex Ferrari 17:01
And how long was the final? Like, was it six months shooting a year shooting? How long? Shoot?

Robyn Paris 17:06
I think it was like six months? Yeah, I remember in the disaster artists, even they characterize that it's like, going,

Alex Ferrari 17:13
It just kept going in the money. And the money always was there. He just always had the money.

Robyn Paris 17:19
It was like a bottomless well of money. And there are three different crews. I was when I was there. And I was only there for a few weeks, though, I think to at least two or three crews that that were different crews, they would quit and then a whole new crew would show up. Because they would Yeah. So they kept quitting. They were professional crew. And I guess they just got fed up with stuff.

Alex Ferrari 17:44
Yeah, there were an LA crew. They were an LA crew that was like, Okay, we'll deal with this for a day or two. But this is enough. We can't we can't take this anymore. Because I'm assuming it wasn't the most professional set in the planet. No, that's a good assumption, say the least. And what was Tommy's directing style? Like?

Robyn Paris 18:06
Yeah, we can call it that. Well, let's see. Like for this Juliet, where we have that pillow fight. Do you remember that scene?

Alex Ferrari 18:15
I remember all the seeds. Okay.

Robyn Paris 18:18
So we had just met her literally 20 minutes before and we're on the set. And then, and we're just talking, we're doing the scene. He goes, You don't even seem like you know each other. You lose your best friends. Why don't you have a pillow fight? Girls have pillow fight. That's what girls do. So Juliet and I are like, Yeah, right. That's what we do. We have drink wine and beat each other with pillows. So we just that you know that he directed us to do that pillow fight. You probably remember that. And other than that, a lot of times he was actually in it. And so whenever he was in the scene, it was hard for him to direct, right. So that's where that whole controversy comes in about the script supervisor Sandy skull, err, sure, directing it directing the room, which he would help for sure. He would help Tommy when Tommy was in scenes, like tell Tommy where to go and help with blocking and stuff like that.

Alex Ferrari 19:12
But at the end of the day, do you want that credit? I know I don't get that that like if you are the ghost director of the room. Do you want to be known as the ghost director of the room? Like I?

Robyn Paris 19:28
Yeah, it doesn't make sense. Because I mean, everyone can. The reason it's bad is because autonomy.

Alex Ferrari 19:35
I mean, it's the reason why it's good and bad is because autonomy, it's 100% Tommy it is that exactly? Because there's things in it like I mean, you just I mean Well, the first of all, obviously, all women when they're in their 20s have pillow fights and drink wine, obviously. Yeah, that's my experience. Every last woman, every last woman It is part of the DNA. So the best example The best explanation of Tommy ever is, as a director I've heard was, imagine an alien comes down to earth takes over a body. And then this is the movie. It thinks that would be a movie that mother Earthlings would enjoy. That's good. Yeah. And I was like, that's because it's such a look, we've all seen bad movies. We've all seen bad movies. I mean, I saw a troll too. And I think a little bit of my, my soul left me. I liked the documentary about the trolls. Joel, too, was amazing. Much better than the movie. But we've seen bad movies. They've been bad movies throughout history, Edward movies, I mean, forever. But there's something so magical about this movie. It's hard to. It's hard to pinpoint it, but from my analysis, and maybe I'd love to hear what you think, why people react the way they do to it. It's that it is authentically, Tommy, there is nothing bullshit about the movie he is not trying to be. It's, it's what he it's his. It's authentic.

Robyn Paris 21:11
Yeah, it fully embodies Tommy, it just is everything that Tommy is.

Alex Ferrari 21:17
And the authenticity, you can literally come because of I would go to try to direct a bad movie like horribly that is, you know, you would smell it. Like, oh, this is a guy who's just trying to be a bad movie. We've seen those movies before, like, shark NATO, like, you know, they know what they're doing. They know this is a bad movie. They know. It's ridiculous. They're just having fun. It's a self awareness there. But Tommy has absolutely no self awareness, and thought he was making Citizen Kane.

Robyn Paris 21:46
Yeah. And that's, that is your right why it is so magically bad. Because the earth it's so earnest. And he's it there's such an effort to be good. Yes. And it fails so spectacularly that that is deeply I don't know why it sounds that destek. But that is deeply funny.

Alex Ferrari 22:06
It is it is it's just it's it fails on so many levels, like when we were watching it that night before we shot the scene. Everybody was there, like why is there another shot of San Francisco? What's going on? Why is that there? Oh, my God, like, all my professional filmmaking friends would never see this. They're all sitting there going. After like, 20 minutes, they get it. And there's some people in the audience that did not do this is just horrible. I can't watch this. Yeah, but the people who got it, they jumped on the ride. And we're just like, completely on board. And that's the kind of movie it is. But it's a fascinating, fascinating character study. And I think the disaster artists did a really interesting job with the relationship. And with Tommy, and all that. What did you think of disastrous,

Robyn Paris 22:53
I really liked it. I thought it was hilarious. And I thought James Franco did a really good job at capturing Tommy. I mean, midway through I forgot I was even watching James Franco, it seemed like Tommy, and I thought they captured the friendship and the story really well. And it would balanced a lot of, you know, humor with pathos and like sincerity. And I thought it was great.

Alex Ferrari 23:17
Yeah, I love that. I love that. Then when we were sitting down talking for a few minutes, you said that the disaster artist got a few things that they took some creative license with? What are the things that were kind of different between the disaster artist and reality?

Robyn Paris 23:30
Yeah, the very end when everyone's cheering in the theater at the premiere of the room. That didn't happen.

Alex Ferrari 23:40
The phenomena did not start off with a bang.

Robyn Paris 23:44
It was a slow burn. It's a slow burn. People obviously cheer now, but at the screenings of the room, but people knew we were where people were laughing, certainly. But that was a good try. And people trying to contain their laughter in the theater because they knew that Tommy meant it to be a searing drama. And instead, it was a laugh out loud comedy. I was sitting two rows or a row behind Tommy and I was trying so hard to contain my laughter but it I ended up crying. I was crying with laughter. Because you know, when you try to stop laughing, it gets even worse. Right? And so a lot of people were like that, like, we were really trying not to seem like we were laughing. But we all were. And then after that after the movie, there was a party and no one was everyone was just asked like our jaws were on the floor. And we were looking around like, Oh, my God, what was that? Right. And I didn't approach Tommy because I just knew I couldn't lie believably. And I didn't want to have to, you know, I didn't want to say that was amazing, or

Alex Ferrari 24:44
Did he feel it? Did he? Did he understand that he that it was not well received? Or was he still in delusional world?

Robyn Paris 24:51
That night of Yeah, I don't know for sure. I feel it because I feel like he it didn't go well. From his purse.

Alex Ferrari 24:59
Okay. to, like, he

Robyn Paris 25:01
Must have heard the chuckles I don't know he must have. But okay. So in the disaster art is when he and Greg go to the lobby, and they discuss it and Greg's character is like, you know, you made something that people aren't enjoying. Listen to them. They're loving it, and then you go back in there and then they die. No, I do. I don't believe that that happened that night. Perhaps it did a week later, a couple weeks later. Sure. But yeah, it took a little while to kind of re reframe the narrative or

Alex Ferrari 25:31
Reframe the situation in general. Yeah. What was the reaction of the other actors that you saw? How were there any that were absolutely pissed. Other people that were just could not stop laughing that it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, whether reactions is you don't have to use their names, but just what are the actions of some of the other actors?

Robyn Paris 25:49
Some of the other actors were devastated? Oh, and then others were just like, Okay, well, we know it was gonna be bad. But this was really, really bad. They weren't for me, it was a hat. There was so many things that were really a happy surprise. Like the things I didn't know were in the room that were so funny, like the rooftop scene. I mean, all of the rooftop scenes like

Alex Ferrari 26:12
For you got so you basically got the joke. Right away.

Robyn Paris 26:16
I, my husband and I were dying, laughing. And then the next morning, we woke up and we were quoting lines to each other from the room, and then we were crying with laughter again. I mean, we were just seriously laying there laughing so hard. We were crying. So for me, I was like, Well, I don't think anybody will see us. But if they do, it could get a cult following because it is crazy funny.

Alex Ferrari 26:35
So you You're so you literally caught that right away. You caught what this could be. And you were basically reacting as a room fan. Right away off the first screening.

Robyn Paris 26:46
Yes, because I was in so few of the scenes that, you know, and I was like, Oh, yeah, my scenes are fine. I wasn't devastated by the scenes I was in. They were totally fine. And I thought I just enjoyed the rest of it. Like how crazy it was and how irrational So yeah, I just thought it was hilarious. From the beginning.

Alex Ferrari 27:07
And obviously the pillow scene was the highlight. But chocolate, of course, of course, of course. Put your put your insults in your pocket. I'm sorry, I can't have it. Now what is the weirdest thing you saw on the set?

Robyn Paris 27:29
Um, oh, well, I didn't physically see this actually see this. But the makeup artists they had Well, I had to get airbrushed every day because Tommy didn't like freckles. And he had got him so he got airbrushed every day as well. His entire body. Obviously. Obviously, rikes got to look flawless on the screen. And

Alex Ferrari 27:50
Then use the term flawless is a loose word. He used a certain range. What's doable? Yes.

Robyn Paris 28:00
So the day they had to do the bus scene, I came back it was like the next day after they shot the naked butt scene with Tommy

Alex Ferrari 28:08
And the total button in the belly, but you

Robyn Paris 28:10
Will not know the belly button hump. I didn't mention that. Okay. I didn't really know about that the recycled sex scene until I saw it on screen. So that was a treat. But they said you will not believe what happened. I said What happened? They said yesterday we had to airbrush Tommy's butt. And then we had to keep touching it up all day long. The makeup artists Oh my God. That was that was the thing I heard about when I came back to the set but I just you know people quit all the time. There was a documentarian following us around all the time on set filming us behind the scenes. So literally, we couldn't even change he would follow us. There wasn't a changing room for the actors. It was just a little tent. And so in order to change, we had to duck behind cars in the burns and saw your parking lot. And then the documentarian would be following us with his camera. I remember telling him like, dude, I'm trying to change here. So yeah, that is

Alex Ferrari 29:10
Great. Because obviously as he says, His asked is what's going to sell international? Yes, yes. You really want China? Yeah, he's huge in China. So and then you obviously kept living in LA so when you kept driving by the billboard, what was the What was your feeling when you first saw this billboard? I was like, that is still up. I can't believe it's still there. like three years right? It was like two to three years I think it was might have even been five years. Where's the money coming from? No one knows. No one knows no one still to this day. Nobody knows where the money came. So. So for anybody who's listening It doesn't mean we're talking about in LA for five years. There was a billboard on wasn't like on I don't even know where I remember. What street it was on. It was on Island and fountain. So it's a fairly, fairly predominant Billboard. And it was this shot of, of Tommy with the room with his, with his number on it to set up screenings. And it just stayed there. It became like this landmark in LA and everyone's like, what is this room thing. And I remember when I got here, I got here in 2008. And one was room shot 2000 2002. And it came out 2003. Right. So by then it already been five years. So it already picked up the the cult following at this point, where I walked into a theater and I saw the poster, like midnight showing of the room and every animal and I asked my la friends, like, what's the room, they're like, Oh, you've got to see the room. And that's the way the whole thing went. Like the whole phenomenon of the worldwide is like you have to see the room. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Robyn Paris 31:05
Yeah, it was a lot of it was word of mouth. I mean, I think most of it was word of mouth. But because the mouth word of mouth was so passionate and people who saw it loved it so much it worked.

Alex Ferrari 31:17
And now do you have you? I'm assuming you've gone to some screenings. I'm assuming you've signed an autograph or two? Yes. What is What is your reaction as going to the screenings? And then have are there Have there been any like conventions you've gone to like, I mean, sure, comic book conventions, or movie conventions or anything like that, that you've attended.

Robyn Paris 31:38
I haven't gone to any conventions. When I go to the screenings, a lot of times I'll go with a group of friends and we'll dress up. A lot of times I've worn bigs because I like to be a fly on the wall to react. I've been to a couple screenings in my hometown of North Greensboro, North Carolina. And that's been really fun. And they I was on the news, their local affiliate. Yeah, talking about being in the worst movie ever made. Right? Well, girl makes good

Alex Ferrari 32:08
In the worst movie ever made. Yeah,

Robyn Paris 32:11
Great story. One day, I'll have something really great I can talk about. So yeah, so I love going to the screenings. I love meeting the fans. And just, you know, everyone reacts to it. And I enjoy it. And I like I get some new out of it every time I go.

Alex Ferrari 32:28
And the way you reacted to my act, or in, in my movie as a fan of the room, I'm assuming is the way you react to other fans, like yours. So he was so humble. You were just kind of like, oh, you're a fan? Oh, great. Oh, you want to talk about Tommy? Sure. I'll tell you. Like, I'm sure this is like a daily basis, do you get recognized on the streets?

Robyn Paris 32:48
I mean, sometimes I do, but it not that much. I stay. I live in West LA. And I'm like, in my area most of the time. And I think if i when i i got recognized a couple times at Sundance. And then if I'm off in the Hollywood area, I get recognized more, but I guess because I think there's just more people there who have seen their room. And so I just not like I get recognized that much.

Alex Ferrari 33:13
Yeah. Now, at what point, did you because we've talked about this a little bit off air? At what point do you accept what this is and go along for the ride as opposed to fight it? Because I'm assuming there were some actors who just wanted to have nothing to do with it. I want my name off of it. I don't want to be involved with this. But you decided to go the other way. Like, you know what, this is fun. I'm going to jump on board. When would when was that moment in your in your life?

Robyn Paris 33:41
Let's see 2008 Entertainment Weekly did a four or five page spread about the room. And I was interviewed for that. And I guess it had been slowly gained traction up until that point. And people have been telling me that I was in film school. Mentioning Oh, you know what, a lot of celebrities are becoming fans. And, and you know, I guess Paul Rudd is a fan and all you know, and I was like, Oh, I think it'll just run its course, you know, that's great. But you know, and then when Entertainment Weekly did the full spread, I was like, Oh, crap, it's not going anywhere. It's not gonna go

Alex Ferrari 34:14
It's just growing

Robyn Paris 34:16
And I think I was sort of out of film school not really embracing it that much. No, I just really didn't. I didn't really think about it that much. Because I was, you know, I wanted to be taken seriously. And I feel like if you advertise that you're in the worst movie ever made. It doesn't really necessarily lend itself to people respecting you.

Alex Ferrari 34:39
Good for the branding.

Robyn Paris 34:41
Exactly. But so I thought, you know what, I'm just going to ignore it. It'll go away. And that just did not work. And I think I was at a screening in Hollywood and I had a blonde wig on I was with a bunch of friends. So we were there to have fun and Michael Cera was in line behind me and we started talking to And he's like, Well, why are you in a blonde wig? And I said, Oh, I just like to be a fly on the wall and kind of not, you know, not have people know who I am and stuff and he's like, why not? You should just really embrace it. I mean, this is one of the most fun things there is to do in LA, I like to come I you know, I come here all the time to see the room and, and I was like his, you know, it's not that I was, I mean, I was obviously there. So it wasn't like hiding from it fully. But it that was good advice in terms of embracing it, because I realized I cannot it won't go away. And

Alex Ferrari 35:33
I'm really bad tattoo. On their on your face on your face. Right there front and center. It's a mike tyson tattoo on your face. You're not getting rid of it. It's not.

Robyn Paris 35:44
So that's why I decided eventually to do the mockumentary because I write comedy. And I'd had been a comedy writer for a long time. And, and I just had this idea of, wouldn't it be funny if these room actors kept trying to escape it and they couldn't, they could not escape the room, which is basically true. And just exaggerate it and poke fun at it and have fun with this struggle of these actors trying to escape from being in this the worst movie ever made, and never being able to do that.

Alex Ferrari 36:12
Tell me a little bit about the movie that you're directing?

Robyn Paris 36:15
Yeah, so it's a mockumentary web series. And it features all of the actors from the movie The room seven out of nine of us. So Tommy and Greg aren't in it. And it basically follows them as they struggle with either embracing or shaking the stigma of appearing in the worst movie ever made. And most of them are trying to shake it and they can't. So we just see everyone suffering in their own way. Like Juliet is married to her, her first stalker, and the stalker basically stopped her around the house reenacting scenes from the room. And so that's that's her life. Danny Philip plays Danny in the room is working Danny's because it's the only place where he could get hired. And so Danny, people come in to Denny's. They recognize him as Danny from the room and they start reciting lines. And then he can't he like, he ends up taking it out on them. And he gets fired. And yeah, so every episode features a different Well, the first three episodes feature to room actors. And then after that every episode features one room actor.

Alex Ferrari 37:20
Are you in? What are you in one of these episodes?

Robyn Paris 37:22
Yes, I'm in Episode Two. Okay. And I'm married. I've been married eight times. And I keep getting divorced because every guy I marry does the room. Oh, face behind my back. face that my boyfriend in the movie makes. Oh.

Alex Ferrari 37:43
And I'm assuming they always want to do pillow fights. Oh, yeah. I can I kickstart that pillow fight in that. So yeah. So you do now? Is this a web series? Or is this going to turn into a full blown document or mockumentary that you'll release as a feature? How is it how you doing it?

Robyn Paris 38:01
Well, I have four episodes done now. And each one's about eight minutes. So it's about 30 minutes of programming that I've already done. And they're out there. They're on Funny or Die, and they're on YouTube. And then I've got six more episodes written and ready to film. And I'm just trying to raise money for those now and about to do a Kickstarter campaign to get the funds to shoot the remaining six. And it's going to be also in front of your eyes Amazon platform soon. Oh, you're signing contracts with them now? Yeah. So that's really exciting. And yeah, so when it's all said and done, it'll be over 60 minutes of stuff. So I don't I don't have plans to edit it together into a feature anything. I think I'll just keep it as the web series, because there's so many different room actors, that kind of fits to just have each episode focusing on one or two of the room after

Alex Ferrari 38:50
How did you and how did you get everybody to be on because I'm so everybody embrace this at this point.

Robyn Paris 38:56
Yeah. I pitched it to Juliet, Kyle, Carolyn and Greg sestero. When I saw them for a documentary mini documentary Greg was doing about for the book launch of the disaster artist. And they were all interested and you know, so I said, Okay, I'll send you my short that I'd written and at the time, it was just a short 10 minute movie, I send to Juliet and she got back right back to me. She's like, Oh, my God, I love it. Let's do it. We've got to do it. So she was really encouraging and help. It was kind of a catalyst for saying yes, we should definitely do this because I was nervous. I was worried they wouldn't want to make fun of themselves or because I have Juliet. She starts out drunk in a bar and wearing sexy red dress and she's hunched over like a drink. And I was like, I don't know if Juliet would want to make fun of just, you know, the fact that she was in this movie, but she was totally game and excited about it. And

Alex Ferrari 39:46
What a Greg and Tom we think about all this, and how come they're not in the movie.

Robyn Paris 39:51
So Greg sestero is super supportive, and he couldn't be in it because he had signed a non compete agreement when he made the deal with the disaster artist. Oh, we shot this way before the disaster artist came out. And, and but he was really supportive. So he signed our poster and some of our Kickstarter rewards. And he reposted our original Kickstarter campaign and shared it and stuff. But then Tommy. Tommy was Didn't he first came to me and he was like, why don't you invite me? I'm like, Well, I'm happy to invite you, you know, it's love to have you. So will you be a part of it? And he was like, well, you have to pay me $250,000 I'm like, yeah, so that's not gonna happen. And yeah, so then he gave me a hard time about my Kickstarter campaign. And he wanted me to blur out the poster. He wanted me to blur out footballs, roses, chocolate, and spoons, all of which were in my Kickstarter campaign because he owns those wooden spoons.

Alex Ferrari 40:54
What do you think owns the rights to dispose? Please? No, no, you have to let me know. What does that mean?

Robyn Paris 40:57
I'm just joking. I'm, you know, he does own the rights to his movie poster. So I did blur that out. After I did that he, you know, came back he's like, now you blur out the spoons. The Ballade chocolate. You blot the football. You blow out the roses, you know, I'm like, no. Copyright.

Alex Ferrari 41:13
I was like, he can't have copyrights on those spoons. He can't now the way as a fan thing, anyway. Well, no, no. Okay, what? Alright, so everybody who's not who has not seen the room was listening. In the movie, there's framed pictures of spoons? Yeah, for no apparent reason. In the movie. Do you know what the reason is that Do you even have any ideas? Has anyone ever heard

Robyn Paris 41:35
They came with the frames, you know, they were just the standard photos that came in the frames. And I don't know why anybody would sell. Because usually it

Alex Ferrari 41:44
Was like, oh, who put spoons? it like, That's ridiculous. I've never seen one of those.

Robyn Paris 41:52
I've never seen that either. Other than the room. But it worked out beautifully.

Alex Ferrari 41:56
Because throughout the movie, there's framed pictures of spoons. So every time the audience sees spoons, they throw plastic spoons at the at the screen is so for everyone listening, which is one of the most fun parts of going to a room screening is throwing those spoons. I really thought I was I was a Rocky Horror Picture Show guy for a long time when I was in high school. I loved going there with the rice and the the toilet paper and all the things that you would throw during it. So I'm assuming the room is the new generation of that. That's what a couple journalists have called it. They call it the new Rocky Horror Picture Show. And that's going to live for it's not going to go away. I don't think it's going away anytime soon.

Robyn Paris 42:35
I don't I don't think so either. Because, I mean, I went to a screening and there was a bus of 15 year olds that had come from the Inland Empire with their parents at as a graduation gift to get to ride into Westwood to see a screening of the room

Alex Ferrari 42:49
And they have to see it here. This is like Mecca. You have to you have to see it in Hollywood. In order to see it. It's it is by far one of the most fascinating Hollywood stories ever. It really is. And I do agree with you. I think the disaster artists did injustice. The book was wonderful. I love the book. I read the book cover to cover. I was just as I was reading it, I'm like, No, this No, this is so funny. fix it. This couldn't have happened. No. And I actually had the pleasure. While I was directing some commercials I hired a sound guy. His name was Zolt. I don't know if you know who Zolt is. Zelt was one of the audio engineers on the room. Oh, wow. And it went like wildfire on the set. That he was the guy who was the sound guy in the room. And we found this great sound fence. It was sound fantastic. And I would just run to him like Zolt first of all great name salt. Secondly, is it true? He's like, yes, this is all true. Because there's a really thick accent. It's all true. He was a maniac. He's a maniac. He was fantastic. But it is but so how I'm By the way, since you now work with all the other actors. How are they doing? What are they doing? Are they they've kind of how do they venture off into other things of after the room?

Robyn Paris 44:12
Yeah, so Juliet lives in Texas now. She's married and she is does graphic design, I believe. And Kyle is still in LA he plays Peter in the room. He's still here he does still does acting and he has a day job. I think it either Sony or Disney doing their tech for their text. And then Dan Jagan lives in Texas also he is in, I believe, banking or insurance. He seems to be doing pretty well. Philip lives in Arizona. He's a journalist. He just got married like a couple of days ago. No like last week, okay. And then Carolyn is here. She lives in the South Bay and she is an actress still. She does commercials and print work and things like that. It's a Greg Ellery he just moved from Illinois, back to California. And I'm not sure what he's doing. He was away for a while he just rejected the room. He was a holdout on my show he, I had emailed him and he didn't respond about being in it. And I did the Kickstarter campaign without, but with all the other actors. And finally, I heard back from him saying, Okay, I'll be in it. In it, he's awesome. He is a funny, funny guy. So I'm really glad he's in it.

Alex Ferrari 45:26
And then who else and then you and you now are a doc, you're a filmmaker, as well as an actor still.

Robyn Paris 45:32
Um, yeah, mainly writer, director and an actress. For I don't send mice I don't go out like I was a commercial Actress for a long time. But I decided to focus mainly on writing and directing. And then I'll put myself in stuff or make my own projects, or if my friends make projects, I'm in theirs. But I like I had been in I was in the room. And then I was right after that, I was in one other bad movie. And I did some good movies and some good shorts, too. But I thought, like, especially some in Chicago, and then some out here, too, they went to great festivals. But after I was in those two bad movies, I was like, You know what, I'm not going to do another bad movie. I'm not going to do a movie until I know for sure that it's great. That's good, you know. And then I went to right after that decision, I went to film school at UCLA, and

Alex Ferrari 46:19
Not a bad, not a bad film school to go to.

Robyn Paris 46:23
No, I loved it, and studied screenwriting, MFA in screenwriting, and then was focusing on writing and then just recently started drafting. And now I'm in a phase where I'm just kind of making a ton of things that I write myself, and then I make and I put myself in them. I'm not necessarily the main character, but I throw myself in wherever. And yeah,

Alex Ferrari 46:44
Now do you were in? You're also in another documentary called roomful of spoons. Can you talk a little bit about that doc and the controversy behind it?

Robyn Paris 46:54
Yes. So that was filmed so long, I think I filled my part in that in 2013 years. So that's been in the works for a while. And, you know, he used to have a good relationship with Tommy. His name's Rick Harper, the director of that, and then it just they had a falling out and Tommy got mad and, and so then Tommy has been very upset about the film, which is a documentary and looking at the remaking of the room and Tommy's background and where Tommy is from and how Tommy got his money and all this stuff. They even go to Europe, they go to Eastern Europe, Poland, where Tommy is from, and they interview his family members.

Alex Ferrari 47:38
They found his family. Yeah. No wonder he's losing his mind.

Robyn Paris 47:45
So he was really mad about that. And he tried, he got a court injunction to shut down prevent the release of that movie. Tommy did so the movie never got released? Well, apparently, the court injunction was lifted. I thought it was back in December, Rick made an announcement his Facebook page that it had been lifted. But there were some still some legal issues in the way and I don't think it's been released yet. I know he was going to play it a couple festivals and Tommy stopped those from happening. So yeah, I was really worried for a while time he was going to try to do that with my show. But he hasn't at all like I haven't heard from Tommy at all since that Kickstarter campaign I did back in 2014. So he's been totally fine with my luckily with my show, look,

Alex Ferrari 48:35
Because you don't want it's kind of like Do you want to hear from Tommy or you don't want to hear from me? It's like,

Robyn Paris 48:40
I mean, yeah, Tommy's. If I heard from Tommy and he were nice. I would be happy to hear from Tommy Sure. I just didn't want to hear any threats from Tommy, which he had been when I first did the Kickstarter. He was threatening me. Yeah, like the thing about blurring all this stuff out. And then you know, I will try to take you down from Kickstarter and stuff like that. And I kept saying, look, this isn't about you. It has nothing to do with you. It's about the room actors and what they're doing now. And I think once my show came out, he realized that and literally haven't heard a peep, right?

Alex Ferrari 49:13
Because you're not so you're not you're you're kind of making fun of it. But you're kind of you're filling your you're putting gasoline on the fire of the mythos of the room with this movie. You're not kind of trying to go after him personally.

Robyn Paris 49:27
Yeah, exactly. I mean, making fun of all the rest of us And sure, yeah, there's room jokes. There's a ton of room jokes but they're designed for room fans, but it's not targeted at Tommy and his background or anything like that.

Alex Ferrari 49:38
That's it's it's been an adventure and it's an adventure that will be with you for a while it's and I don't even know if something like this happened to me. I don't even know how I would have reacted. So I'm so thankful that you came on the show to talk about the inside the inside scoop on the room and and your project not working by the way. Can people support your project?

Robyn Paris 50:02
I'm about to launch another Kickstarter campaign. And I'll give you the link so that when you enter this, hopefully it will have launched. And that's going to be in a few weeks.

Alex Ferrari 50:11
I'll put, I'll put the link, if you have the link, you could say it, but I'll put it in the show notes. Either way.

Robyn Paris 50:15
And I'll also if you want to watch the show, if you haven't seen it yet, you can go to YouTube, forward slash Robin Paris, and you can watch the whole show there or Funny or Die forward slash Robin Paris, is it?

Alex Ferrari 50:26
Okay, if I put those in the show notes as well, I could just actually put the clips there so they could watch the whole thing? That'd be great. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So if you guys want to watch the first four episodes, it'll be in the show notes as well. Now, I'm going to ask you a few questions that I asked all of my guests. Okay. What advice would you give a filmmaker wanting to break into the business today? Obviously, not to go for casting at the room, but

Robyn Paris 50:51
You do is you try to appear in the worst possible movie.

Alex Ferrari 50:55
Right, exactly the worst that will become a cult favorite, and will live on in infamy for the rest of eternity. Good.

Robyn Paris 51:02
You're like, that's the first thing you do.

Alex Ferrari 51:07
Second,

Robyn Paris 51:08
The second? Well, I guess I would say use what you have in a way because as a writer, you know, they say write what you know, which to some extent is good. For me, I've been writing about all kinds of things, all kinds of comedy. But what gave me a chance to direct and I found that I loved directing, and I want to keep doing it, every chance I can get was taking something that happened in my life and making it funny, something that I actually struggled with, like being in the room and make trying to make it work for me. So I would say if you're a filmmaker, and you want to get something off the ground, think about what you have to offer in your specific life, like what have you lived, that you could either poke fun of if you're a if you do comedy, or that you could actually just you know, if you're in drama that you could bring to life and show a dramatic moment in your life. You know, write a short Write, write something that you can pull from your own life. And then and then when you either do a crowdfunding, you can speak from personal experience, you can say, this is why I'm doing this and you have like a real passion for for the reason you know, your motivation for why you're doing it. And I think people will respond to that, and we'll help you, we'll help you by being on your crew or giving you some money through crowdfunding or, you know, family, because it's something they know you care about. And I guess it would just take this to do it. Because I think there's a lot of fear involved with putting yourself out there and kind of just taking a step in a direction you've never gone before. And I think just for me, I faced a lot of fear with when I did this project, just our people listening, this is stupid, or they could just kind of be like, Oh, you're just acting from the room? Like what do you think you could do this, you know, but I think you have to face that fear. You really have to, you can face it is by just taking a step in the direction every day to face it.

Alex Ferrari 53:00
Right? And at the end of the day, you have to you have to walk your own path and not pay attention to what other people think or other or be free of the good opinion of others, as they say, in many ways.

Robyn Paris 53:12
Yeah, 100% don't trust yourself if you think something is great, and you know you can make it great. believe in that.

Alex Ferrari 53:19
I made it work for Tommy it is weird because it did it did no he got everything he wanted. I mean he literally got everything he wanted. And he wanted to be worldwide famous. He wanted to be taken seriously by Hollywood which in in a kind of way he did with the Golden Globes. You know, he almost got it for the Oscars as well but and he did it was it was nominated for Best Screenplay.

Robyn Paris 53:45
Yeah, so Oscar and now he was in these other two movies best friends part one and part two, which he's getting decent reviews for people are saying Tom he's actually good in this role written for him. He's really good.

Alex Ferrari 53:58
Right! He can't stretch but if you if you hit if you hit it down the middle with Tommy you're gonna get something good. Yeah, I can only imagine that it's like working with him on set like as a director trying to direct Tommy was Oh, oh my god. You can try you can hire him. I'm sure it's 150,000 1000 Yeah, at the show up anywhere $250,000 It's my really bad Tommy impression is mine is horrible. Can you tell me what book had the biggest impact on your life or career?

Robyn Paris 54:34
Wow. Um, let's see. I love this is so like, you know, go literature, AP class or something. I really love The Great Gatsby. It's a great book. I loved it. And I read it a couple times. I don't think I fully got it when I was younger and I read it then I read it later as an adult. And I guess what I like is the striving and the desire to be more than you are Because that's what I find relatable. And I just feel like for me, like, I mean, I came to Hollywood I was I had dreams of I'm going to be in the filmmaking industry. And I had no connections. I mean, my dad's a dentist, like, my parents were all back in North Carolina. Nobody knows. We know, we know nobody. And I kind of just felt like, with the Great Gatsby, Jay Gatsby, that that character of just trying to kind of come to someplace where you don't really fit, and trying to make a name for yourself. That was relatable to me. And it's kind of sad. But like, and hopefully that's not, you know, it's for me, my life, I think is good. And you know, things are going great. And I'm really excited. But there's something about how challenging I think it is in Hollywood to kind of make your way sometimes.

Alex Ferrari 55:52
It's extremely challenging. It really is. But you have to keep like, like Gatsby, you have to keep striving. Yeah, you have to keep striving no matter what. And just just keep hustling, as I say, all the time. Got to keep that hustle going without question.

Robyn Paris 56:08
Yeah, totally, totally. And I think things are gonna work out better than they did in the book.

Alex Ferrari 56:14
That's sort of a downer. And if that's a spoiler alert, guys, I'm sorry. The books been out for a little bit. So that's, that's on you. Right. And there's been a few movies as well. Sorry. Cut that out. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Robyn Paris 56:36
Oh, yeah, I think in life as the film business to not worrying about what people think. And we touched upon that before. And also not feeling that I, I think I should have tried directing earlier. But I always thought that no one will listen, like, no one listened to me. I thought how? Why would they listen to me? Why would a whole crew of people

Alex Ferrari 57:04
I get that I get you have no idea how much I get that from, from people who contact me, they're like, how do you handle like a group of people and like, I go, I go either, if it's a guy or girl, I go, guys, you've got to be able to control you're not control but take command of the army of your of your of your squad. Because if you don't, though, you won't be able to make it and unfortunately, you picked a career that takes a group effort to make it's not painting it's not, you know, writing a song in a guitar. It's it's a very expensive, very collaborative art form.

Robyn Paris 57:40
Correct? Yeah, correct. And you if you don't believe in yourself, then it's very hard, I think to command a the respect of a crew. And for me, it took me a while to get there. And now I feel like I'm fully there. Like, I totally believe in myself, but and I think I had kids also, and I think having kids and like, telling everybody what to do all the time was just helpful for me to just learn how to treat like that. I feel like the crew is maybe it also took me getting older. Yeah, and, and I think you just get maturity when you when you get older, and you know how to handle things better. But I feel like I treat a crew not in a condescending way. But kind of like, you know, we're all family. We're a family on a set. And we need to all collaborate and listen and work together well and respect each other. But the respect each other is really important. And that means no attitudes, no kinds of no complaining. That kind of thing. I don't like I would I just don't tolerate that. You know,

Alex Ferrari 58:44
So, if an actor comes up and goes pay me $250,000 you don't you that's not working. Right? Yeah, that's just not gonna fly. You know, it's happens all the time. Right. Now, what are three of your favorite films of all time? Obviously, besides the room?

Robyn Paris 58:59
Okay. Yeah, besides room cuz that's a given right. Back to the Future is my all time favorite movie. I love that movie.

Alex Ferrari 59:06
I love the trilogy of the trilogy in general.

Robyn Paris 59:09
Yeah, me too. I love the third one. Also a ton. Et and I just said so great. And well, so I have a lot of colleagues that I like, but one of the very first comedies I ever saw, and I just like made me want to be a screenwriter, I think was Tootsie or just made me want to be an entertainment?

Alex Ferrari 59:29
Sure. I just love and I love cross dressing.

Robyn Paris 59:35
Doubtfire 2

Alex Ferrari 59:36
Mrs. Doubtfire, Some Like It Hot.

Robyn Paris 59:38
Like, oh, love Some like it had the first script I ever wrote. The first feature I ever wrote was these were these two women who dress as male talent managers to struggling actresses, who dresses male talent managers in order to manage their own careers.

Alex Ferrari 59:52
That's a did. That sounds familiar. There was a movie that did was I don't know if it was a gag or some I remember Something like that. Not too but like, maybe have an episode of friends who knows? Yeah. You rarely see women dresses men and no, you don't know. Right? Generally it's always the other way around. But Priscilla Queen of the Desert, and to Wong Foo. Oh, I haven't seen too long. Oh, you have to watch foo. As I'm laying out all the cross dressing movies the last 15 years. My audience is like Alex, I had no idea you have like, I just know them. I just, I just know them. Don't ask why. Now, where can people find you in your work?

Robyn Paris 1:00:37
Okay. Oh, yeah. So Robin Paris, calm and Robin's with y. And then I might the room. mockumentary calm is where I have information about the show. And then I met Robin Oh, Paris on Twitter and at Robin Oh, Paris on Instagram. And official Robin Paris on Facebook. If you want to, like me there or whatever follow or all that stuff. You know.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:00
I know. It's weird. It's weird. It's weird. It's weird. It's weird. Like, can I tweet you? I'm like, I can't stand doing I can't stand what anyone says, Can I tweet? Like, I'm a grown adult. I'm a grown adult. I'm saying tweet. No, it's it's, it's like the weirdest thing for me still, but I get it. It's the world that we live in today. Robyn, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you. And thank you so much for being so honest and raw about your experience. In honestly, the best movie ever made. Without question and, and the pillow scene alone is is worth the price of admission for anybody.

Robyn Paris 1:01:36
That's right. That's right.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:39
Thank you so much, Robin. Appreciate it.

Robyn Paris 1:01:40
Thank you for having me, Alex. I really appreciate it too.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:44
I want to thank Robyn again for coming on. And just just being so kind with her time and talking about the room again, that she's price talked about that movie just nauseum for the last 10 years. So Robyn, thank you so much for being on. And guys, if you are fans of the room, you've got to watch our mockumentary series. I have two episodes on this in the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com/244 finished episodes so you can watch what she does what she did, and and hopefully help her with her Kickstarter campaign to finish off this series. It's super fun. And if you're a fan of the room, you've got to watch it. So thanks again, Robyn. If you haven't already, guys, head over to filmmakingpodcast.com, and leave a good review for the show. It really really does help us out a lot. Just do it on your iPhone. Do it on your computer, on your laptop, on your iPad, wherever you can get to the show. Please just leave us a good review. And five stars would be really, really helpful. And help us be found by more and more filmmakers so this information could get out to them. And as always keep that hustle going keep that dream alive and I'll talk to you soon. I did not hit her I did not. Oh Hi Mark.

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IFH 242: Indie Film Producing Masterclass – How to Option a Screenplay with Suzanne Lyons

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Right-click here to download the MP3

In today’s episode, I’ll be giving you a sneak peek of producer Suzanne Lyons’ new course Indie Film Producing Masterclass. This is part one of two so enjoy this look inside the best selling indie producing course.

How do you legally option a screenplay? What are the agreements you need? Suzanne goes over everything you need to know in this episode. Enjoy!

Here’s some info on the Indie Film Producing Masterclass:

Have you ever wondered what it really takes to produce an independent film? How raise money, dealing with contracts, SAG agreements and putting together sales presentations for investors? Then this masterclass is for you.

Award-winning film producer Suzanne Lyons is about to take you from script to screen and beyond in this Mastermind workshop. After producing a number of bigger budget features Suzanne thought producing the SAG ultra-low and modified budget films would be a piece of cake. Boy, was she wrong? Wearing 100 different hats was a challenge and she learned so much. And now she will be sharing all that great info with you.

In this Mastermind workshop, you’ll learn from her experience and benefit from her success. Suzanne will take you through a structured crystal, clear step by step process that will actually make low budget filmmaking easy and fun!

This workshop is unique in that it will literally guide you through the entire process of making your film. From her own hands-on experience, she will be addressing every detailed facet of filmmaking.

“Suzanne has that rare ability to combine artistic creativity and smart business sense… she’s proven that by taking a SAG ultra-low budget and somehow squeezing out a quality film that looks like it cost a million!”
Academy Award® Winner Mark L. Smith, Writer/Director “Séance” Writer, “The Revenant”

“Suzanne is brilliant… take her workshop and put her suggestions to work and you’ll be amazed at the extraordinary results you’ll produce.”
Ross Grayson Bell, Producer “Fight Club”

From option a screenplay, development, designing your business plan, opening your film company, hiring your line producer and director. Finessing your budget, schedule and film timeline. Being smart about contracts and paperwork. Casting and working with actors. The details of pre, principle, and post, choosing your sales agent, preparing for film delivery and festivals, and so so so much more.

You’ll also get a BONUS PACK of the real world used contracts, agreements and business plans word and PDF worth over thousands.

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Alex Ferrari 0:41
Today, guys, I have a treat for you. I'm going to do a two part sneak preview of Suzanne Lyons indie film producing masterclass. And I really wanted to share some of the amazing knowledge that she has in this course with you guys by giving you free lessons for you to hear. So today's lesson you're going to listen to is how to optioned a screenplay, which I know is very mysterious to a lot of people listening out there who are trying to make a movie, and they want to go out and try to get a screenplay to produce that movie instead of trying to write one themselves. And Suzanne lays it all out for you guys. So at the end of the episode, I will give you a link to get access to the indie film producing masterclass. But until then, enjoy this sneak preview with Suzanne Lyons.

Suzanne Lyons 2:51
So what we're going to do and what I did here, I'm going to bring this over here, Alex, so I don't have to keep moving about his first things first, right. Like I said, what we're going to do is take one little piece at a time, we're going to option the screenplay. And what some of you were thinking already is, Oh, I can't. I can't. It's my best friend. That would be like, weird. I can't ask my best friend. sign off on this. Lady, you know, that's just rude. Or it's my brother. I'm gonna have my brother like sign a contract and agreement. That's, that's weird. Right? One of my friends didn't take the class. Didn't need to sort of been around the industry for a long time haven't produced or been in other aspects, but don't need it. Don't need it. Two years later, she called me from Cannes saying into somebody who read the book. I think the stories in the book here to Susan, she was crying. There's a sales agent who wants to buy Daniel to take on the movie to sell it. Nice. Oh, that's what you're crying Oh, congratulations. She said no. The problem is she said they asked for the chain of title information. You know, the option and then transfer of the of the right of the of the ownership. And she said, and I don't have that. And I said, What do you mean? I said, I think you were making your move two years ago. As I recall, this was all like, oh, man, that option would have been done two years ago. Well, no, she said it was my best friend. I didn't want to, you know, bother her was signing something. Well turned out. She in the director I had a fight shortly after. And she said the movie could burn in hell. For all she cared. And that's about 10 years ago. And it's continuing well to burn in hell, right? Because no chain of title, no movie ain't gonna happen. She didn't even have a relationship with a best friend anymore. You know what I mean? So it's not even like it was worth it. And here's the thing, guys, if it's your own visa, I don't care. I really don't Care it can happen or not, or it can burn an L for as long as they're, you know, whatever, I don't care. If it's your visa, I really don't. The minute you start selling units and shares, you are a business person, you're opening your LLC, you've got your ppm, you've got legal documents. And now I'm going to my dentist, and getting selling him a unit on you don't get to play the game of home note with my friend, I didn't want her to sign. I had another person whose budget was 300,000. And those were investors, just one or two. That's a lot of money. I don't care how rich you are, that's still a lot of money. And didn't take the class until after that movie. And I gotta tell you, that movie will never be seen because she had no clearance report ever, ever, ever on the script, no script clearance. There are Coca Cola cans, flying everywhere. There's every product known to man, there's license plates, there's people's last name, who've done bad things. But you know, there's everything that you cannot do in a movie. And, you know, that's so so I'm thinking once again, if that was her visa, and some of you are thinking, Oh, Susanna, CGI, you know, just when to post? Well, that was a few years ago, not as easy, but even then we're not talking about one Coca Cola cans sitting there. We're talking about, you know, 10 of them moving around, you know, you have to read just read through the movie, right? But that's somebody else's money, like it's a business. So this is really important without this piece without this first piece in your binder. There's no movie. Okay, so let me tell you a couple little stories about that. It's the option agreement. Yeah. I don't care about your mom wrote the script. I don't care. I don't care. I don't trust her. But same thing, if it's your own. Okay, good. One. Good, good one. Natalie, that was really good. What's Natalie was saying is what if it's your own? What if you wrote the script, you still have to do the option agreement, okay. You still have to because it's part of delivery, which we're going to get to in a second as well. So this one here that I did is I did two today you're going to have to in your binder. This one is one that I've done for a whole ton of indie low budget, StG ultralow movies, easy peasy, or even say modified. Easy peasy. So let's just look at it a little bit. Now this price is a little high, I was paying $5,000. For the script, which I don't do, obviously, until first day of principle, or the first day of free, usually the first day of free just because, um, you know, want to make sure that I can then start the transfer. But what I did is I even offered a couple of points, which was a lot of points. You know, ordinarily, I wouldn't do that many points, because a lot of times and you're saying, Oh Suzanne, you're being so mean, and you're being so stingy. I'm not, I just want you to know, I am the most generous person. I know, I always stand in generosity, graciousness and abundance when I'm doing agreements. And when I'm doing my business plan, that's always where I stand. And Kate was to say my partner was phenomenal. And in this respect, but what I'm saying is, a lot of the times you're dealing with new writers and new directors, so you're really giving them really a check for $200,000. Because this is going to be their chance to be on the screen or on the DVD or on the VOD or whatever, right? So I would not feel too badly where you want the money to go guys is on the screen, you really want it on the screen, especially the same goes for law, you don't have a lot of room to play around. So I probably would do more like two and a half percent or 2%. And, you know, for the director, I'd made me you know, like 202,500 and the writer probably 2500 or whatever. So it's not about that the only movie you'll probably money you'll ever see is in the back end. So you got to keep as much as you can, because you also need to keep as much as you can, because you might need that that name actor. And that is done up. You know for name actors, I've done up to 7.5% of the back end of the year. It was a big name but I needed that that was in the pre sale days back years ago, where we did pre sales, I needed his name to sell the territory's in the pre sales. Sometimes you need that neighbor nowadays you need it just to sell after the fact. Right? Yeah, most of you scale the the back end participation based on the total budget of the dome, as well as the talents, celebrity status or know what I'm saying is a lot of times in the lower budgets, your you know, it's their first opportunity anyway, so it's not like they'd necessarily be expecting, you know, a 5% you might need that 5% for your lead actor. Would you scale it up or down based on the total budget of the film? No, not necessarily. Not necessarily. It not sometimes if the right now I'm working with Mark Smith, that's a different story. Yes, it's, you know, it's going to be a lower budget. I did a mark Smith, you know, he did well, that got three Academy Awards, The Revenant. And he's working on with JJ Abrams right now on another project. But the one I'm working on right now is with with Mark. So even though, you know, the budget might be lower, it's not a JJ Abrams, he's not going to get the same back end, as JJ would be giving him on that studio film, for example, or that he got on The Revenant. And he knows that. So it's, it's kind of like, you might need to save that. In our case, I probably need to say for the actor, or the director, if it's a real this particular one I'm doing with Mark is a very director driven. So you know, so just be careful with that. Honestly, I have Oh, my God. I've been with people who have given away 10% not net gross to their production designer, trying to remember the meeting I was sitting in where I couldn't breathe for like five minutes, because I couldn't believe it. I remember I was sitting was my own office, because I was doing a private, I was doing a private One of these was like four or five people. And I was so I was going over this section. And he said, Well, there's not that many points left. And he said, we've already brought on some of our team. So I said like, goo God, like it's like 10%. Like what you bring up? Well, you know, for our production designer, Suzanne, like, you know, he's He's really good. And I'm going, Oh, my God on a $200,000 movie. And then he told me, it was gross. And then I went through, you know what he had over pointed? Like, there was no more points, like there. Yeah, like he was in the mood. He was in the negative points, because 50% of the points sometimes 60. So be very careful. Or with your investor, usually, it's a 5050. Right, he had given away some of the investors back end. So just be careful, because I know sometimes we're laughing and shaking her head. But you know, it's like, sometimes it's like, oh, shit, I shouldn't have done that I or whatever. Like, we'll get caught ourselves in something not as crazy as that. But you know, so just be careful with that. Here's the Yes.

Guest 12:01
When it comes to a documentary, when you don't necessarily have a script, to protect yourself with the risk of whatever could happen whether that person walks away. Is there a way that you can kind of protect yourself with a documentary sort of story of documentary?

Suzanne Lyons 12:17
II? What Jonathan, is there a way to protect yourself with a documentary story? And you mean, in what way the person who has the life story

Guest 12:22
I guess we've got a script, obviously, then you can auction that script is That's right. That's urllc. Right. life story, and you're doing a documentary. Awesome. Is there any way that

Suzanne Lyons 12:32
I would still do the right? The like a did the like it like a book option? You know, the life Right, right. Okay. I did I yes, I did that one too. Okay. I actually have a sample of that. I brought some different samples of things today. The life rights. We did that one time when we were doing a Lifetime movie. So we did the we got the rights from the woman. Amazing, amazing story. And it was from her. So we were the exclusive. Yeah. And you'll know more about you're dealing your mentor is the producer was going to be the producer on that. Did you get in touch with the con? Okay, I gave you her information. Okay. Is that clear? So yeah, there we go it because the other thing is what if it's a book or within this great book, you know what I wrote the script for it. I have that going on right now. And you know, I've got the script for it. But now I need to go and get the rights to the book. Well, guess what happens? The agent for the book writer said, No, thanks. Just like that gone.

Alex Ferrari 13:36
I hope you guys enjoyed that sneak preview. If you want to get access to the course just head over to producing masterclass calm, and I tell you it is an amazing, amazing course. And next week, I'm going to put out one more sneak preview covering another topic, but Suzanne really goes deep into all this kind of stuff. And if you are even thinking about making an independent film or a micro budget film, this really really has a ton of information in it, as well as all the contracts all the agreements that you need in PDF and in Word files, so you can adjust them and change them to your own production. It's worth 1000s and 1000s of dollars so it's really really a great deal. So just head over to producing masterclass comm and check it out. Also guys, I have an announcement I am currently writing a book and I'm throwing that out into the universe because I need you guys to hold me to it and and now that I put it out into the universe, I have to finish this thing. It is a beast of a book and I can't tell you what I'm writing about just yet just know it is going to hopefully rock you guys world. I really am excited about it. So I hope to have that book done by years and and release it by the fall or winter. And we will be talking much more about that in the coming months as Well, I just wanted to put that out there. And it's an update on a corner view one desire, we have submitted to a few festivals, we are going down the festival circuit to see if we can get any attention from the festivals before we start releasing it, seeing if we can get any action on it. And just see what we could do with it. But there will be a new trailer coming out soon for that as well, that I'll be working on over the next month or so. So you guys could see a little bit more of the movie because I've been getting a ton of emails like where where can we see it? When can we see it where I want to see it? I want to buy it. Soon, my friends soon, I promise you. But thank you again so much for all your support, guys. And don't forget to head over to filmmaking podcast comm and sign up and subscribe to the podcast on iTunes and leave us a five star review. Please, it really does help out the podcast a lot. Thank you again so much. And as always keep that also going. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 228: How to Deal with Residuals & Paying Back Investors with David Zannoni

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Have you ever had to deal with paying out investors, guilds, unions, residuals, and producers from the revenue your film makes? Today’s guest is David Zannoni of Fintage House, does just that but on a global scale. David helps you, the producer, ALL the rights for your film globally.

Now, this is a subject I didn’t know I needed to know about. After meeting David at AFM I knew I had to have him on the show to drop some knowledge bombs on the IFH Tribe.

In today’s film industry, it is customary for independent film productions to have a collection account in place. Often film financiers, (international) production companies, sales agents, and lawyers representing any of these parties require the establishment of a Collection Account before they step on board of, or have their client commit to, a project.

What is exactly a Collection Account? A Collection Account is an account opened in the name of an independent, neutral, trusted third party, the so-called Collection Account Manager or simply the CAM. The CAM receives into the Collection Account the revenues generated by the worldwide exploitation of the film from the distributors on behalf of the beneficiaries of the film.

This is called Collection Account Management. This ensures that each beneficiary of the film will receive its share of the revenues. Beneficiaries include the sales agent, the producers, (institutional) financiers, talent (writers, directors and actors) and equity investors in the film.

A Collection Account is set up in the name of the CAM. The film’s sales agent or worldwide distributor subsequently instructs the local distributors of the film, in each territory and for every media window, to pay into the Collection Account the royalties generated under the distribution agreements.

To make sure distributors actually pay to the Collection Account, the sales agent includes the details of the Collection Account in the distribution agreements, the invoices it sends to the distributors, or by means of sending a notice of assignment to the distributors advising them of the existence of a Collection Account for the film.

The benefits of having a Collection Account in place are amongst others:

  • Protection of revenues
  • Avoidance of conflicts between parties of interest
  • Creating transparency in the accounting side
  • Outsourcing of the film’s administration

Here’s a bit on today’s guest.

 

David Zannoni negotiates agreements for films and television series for Fintage House clients, is involved in business development, maintains relationships with clients specifically in the US, Latin America, and Spain, and represents Fintage at film markets.

On behalf of Fintage House, David has given presentations, workshops and seminars at universities across the globe and at events such as the yearly conference of the National Association of Latino Independent Producers in the US (NALIP), the Winston Baker Film Finance Conferences, the Rio Film Market and the Bogota Audiovisual Market (BAM). David currently resides in Mexico and speaks fluent English, Spanish, Italian and Dutch.

Enjoy my conversation with David Zannoni.

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Alex Ferrari 0:02
Now, we're going to get into the weeds a little bit today with today's guest, David Zannoni, of vintage house. And we're going to really get into the weeds on how you manage rights of your movie, how you're able to get investors paid back properly, how to protect yourself as an independent filmmaker. It's really some amazing stuff. And I met him at AFM this year. And we hit it off. And I said you have to be on the show. filmmakers just don't understand this and don't under it's just a completely, you know, covert world that I had never even heard of. And I've been in the business for over 20 odd years. So I know a lot of you guys haven't heard about what he does, and tricks to kind of protect yourself on on working with investors, working with unions, and so on. So without any further ado, here is my conversation with David Zannoni. I like to welcome to the show David Zannoni. How are you doing, brother?

David Zannoni 3:11
I'm doing very well Alex, thank you for having me.

Alex Ferrari 3:14
Oh, thank you for coming on, I bumped into you at AFM. And we have our mutual friend rb, from stage 32 that connected us. And once I started talking to you, I was fascinated by what you do. And and I think you could be of a service to many filmmakers, because it's just something so mysterious that I really never thought about. So before we get into what you actually do. How did you even get into the business? And why are you Why are you in another business instead of this crazy one?

David Zannoni 3:46
That's a very good question. And Alex, you know, first of all, I'm I'm from Holland. So my, my story about getting into the film business is probably different from many other people, especially in the US. So I was I two of my passions are basically traveling and, and languages. And when I was in my mid 20s, which is about 10 years ago or so, I just returned from from living and traveling and working abroad in Italy and Mexico when I was basically in the Netherlands, just looking for an opportunity to travel and to speak my languages and to do international business. So at some point I run into this small company and enlightened small town near to near Amsterdam, which was in the film business doing everything basically internationally working obviously with we're producing Hollywood's but also people in in Spain and Latin America. So I was I was impressed. I was fascinated by it. I didn't know anything about The film business other than you know, that I like watching films, but I didn't know anything about how how the Independent Business worked at all. And I applied and they hired me. And that's when I started my journey in this descretion business, Alex, that's awesome. That's awesome.

Alex Ferrari 5:20
Yeah, the film industry is is a very seductive siren. It is. And I have to say, I mean, in the beginning, I seriously, I didn't know what I was doing. Because you know, and maybe this is different from for many of your other speakers, you know, the business, I'm in side of business collection account management is it's not a creative, not the creative side at all. It's, it's really the, the business side. So I had to start working on collection account management agreements with independent producers and multi party agreements. So I had to learn everything from from scratch. And, you know, if you're from a small country, outside Los Angeles, but you know, even outside other, let's say, international financial centers, or local films like London, for example, but even Madrid or Paris, and it's very hard to show, there's no comparison. There's, of course, there's a Dutch, a Dutch film industry, but it's generally local, and it's small. And it's, it's, it's not that, let's say that office that you run in, it's not like in Los Angeles, wherever you are, that you meet people who are one way or the other involved in the film business, right? They are producers or, or people working at Starbucks, and, you know, one of the writers, that doesn't happen at all it does. A little tiny lighting. So, so yeah, that that's, that's gadget.

So tell me what you are doing today. Exactly.

David Zannoni 6:55
Yeah. So, you know, my, my focus on behalf of vintage house is on its own collection account management for independent film and television productions. Okay, so and that's, like I said, completely on the on the business and legal side. So others would work, independent production, independently produced, financed and distributed. With all the risks on the on the collection and allocation of revenues, because generally, a film or television series impendent project is sold to distributed independent distributors worldwide. And those distributors pay minimum guarantees and basically licenses to or royalties to license to films locally. You know, they pay them in principle to the production will be the LLC, for a US production. And from there, they're pretty cool company as the the commitment obligation to pay all those beneficiaries, all those people who have been involved in the film and have a financial interest in film. So whether that's repaying of investors finding Sears or dissociation cells to film internationally, our talents, right, whether that's deferred a producer fees, for example, a bookshelf, the bonuses. In principle, the production company has all those those commitments. And basically, what but but but but we do, we, we open collection accounts, single can single accounts per fill. And though the distributors rather than paying directly to the LLC, they pay to this collection account, which is a single purpose account, it's only set up for that specific film, and it's only purposes to receive the revenues from the cell international revenues and to distribute them amongst the beneficiaries of after sale.

Alex Ferrari 9:05
Investors, investors,

David Zannoni 9:07
Investors minuses, yeah, guilt you're important to mention. So the only thing we actually do is precisely that we receive, we receive those those revenues for the film, and we distribute, we allocate and distribute those revenues amongst the beneficiaries. And we do it pursuant to a collection account management agreement, single standard loan agreement we entered to with the production company, and the parties were the main financial interest in the film. And the position we take on as a collection account manager is completely neutral. So the only really the only job it has is to receive and allocators revenues completely, literally, in accordance with the collection agreements. So by doing this, it basically provides in, let's say and gear Tea to the beneficiaries and film. Not the distributors pay for the film. But once the our revenues generated and are properly paid by the distributors to sell the local distributors to the collection account, we basically guaranteed those monies are paid in accordance with the recoupment schedule, the conditions, the terms and conditions, we agree in the collection account management agreement. That's, that's basically the the, the whole essence of of the search.

Alex Ferrari 10:31
So you, you're basically a babysitter for the money coming in. And a lot of ways, you're like, Look, look grown up, the money's gonna come to me, and then I'm gonna give it out to everybody. And we're not emotional about it. We're not, there's nothing creative here. We're strictly a service. And we all you basically just, yeah, in many ways, you'd like the babysitter in a good way, in a good way.

David Zannoni 10:54
I think that's the best summary, the best definition I've ever heard about it, but it's certainly true. I mean, and it's it's it's precisely that so all those you know, if everybody who's who's worked on a film project has produced a film that are generally show many people involved in an independent film project, and everybody has his or her interests in in the film. So these parties need a neutral third party basically, to take care of, of something which is extremely important to everybody. But nobody really has to focus on from the beginning, right, we always say the producer focuses on producing the reality, you know, focuses on getting films made. The sales agency focused on selling the financier wants to investor wants to bring in money in the film and wants to recoup investment. And I usually this this is this is not centralized, to show through through a collection account manager, you basically centralize the whole business side of receiving and allocating revenues. And indeed, there's nothing creative about it. It's it's completely, you know, just just completely robotic in a way, right that the only thing we do is Debian so there's no argument possible that it's, you know, it's impossible, it will be impossible to say, you know, what, this is what we did the amendment, or in the in the agreement, for example, $100,000 per user fee payable to body and the body wants to renegotiate or spaced instructing the collection covenants manager to pay differently, there's just no way. We only strictly follow the agreement.

Alex Ferrari 12:35
Got it. So David, what, what is the biggest mistake you see filmmakers make with payment structures for investors, because I know a lot of you know, a lot of filmmakers have no idea of like, what should be a proper, you know, payment structure? What would you say?

David Zannoni 12:50
It's, that's a good question. The biggest mistake, I mean, I don't, I don't really think you can define it as a mistake. I think it's for every filmmaker, for producers making a film is a journey and many people, many dependent producers, it may take years before the film was actually made. So it's not like that there is a you know, and a certain guide or that that people have experienced to put this all together. But but I do think is that when people maybe rather than speak to mistake, when people do not really realize is how, how complicated destructions can become. And also the fact that that that that independent film production, and finding finding schedule is very often made of several single pieces who all independently create commitments, right? That means that, for example, that the producer has the commitment to pay maybe four or five equity investors, but at the same time, and all in order to get it to make to get the film made. Right. So maybe at the same time there isn't agreement with an actor with a director to defer compensation. So that's another commitment. And there there may be at the same time the obligation to pay residuals, right? If there are if, for example, actors are guild members. So all these single obligations are usually each of these obligations. It has its own deal and agreement with its own language. I think the people that that for filmmakers, it's, it's not even the question of whether whether they make a mistake, they realize it's just very often too much to deal with. While you're marketing

Alex Ferrari 14:42
While you're marketing it while you're trying to get distribution. While you're you know, you're getting your next project set up.

David Zannoni 14:49
Yeah, I did. And what's also very important to mention, you know, many of the filmmakers, independent producers, they make maybe won't film each each, you know, a couple of years. It's it's a lot of work on on one project, where as for example, the show's agents who sell the film, they may do 10 or 20 or 30 films, you look, look at myself, Alex, I've, I think we from from vintage perspective, but speaking, we do about 140 150 films a year. I think personally, I see probably one way another maybe 4050 films a year. So you see a lot more. I mean, the involvement is a lot less less, not less in detail. But you see all the structures, you see all the bodies, you see how people handle our people, how people deal with issues. And it's for an independent film filmmaking developers is a lot more difficult. So I think that's probably but but for independent producers, the biggest hurdle you're getting getting together, the payment structure, the recoupment schedule, how we call it, which is basically a waterfall. So putting all those single commitments in terms of allocation and disbursements of revenue, so repayment of investments, the deferred producer fees, back end participants to put it all together in one schedule, and get everybody to sign off on it. So all those parties with the financial inclusion feel that's probably the biggest, you know, challenge, let's call it a challenge for filmmakers.

Alex Ferrari 16:26
It seems like it's it's such a massive thing you have to deal with. And if you're not, you know, good at it, or have experienced doing it. It could be very unruly, and I know of many filmmakers who get called back, you know, like, Oh, you know, back payments on the DGA, or the Writers Guild or this investor didn't get the money they exactly wanted, or the back end points and all that kind of stuff, it gets really hairy really quickly. So having something like this really helps things out. Now, how would a film producer normally deal with sag residual payments if they didn't use a service like yours?

David Zannoni 17:03
Yeah. So basically, in a nutshell, and film producer has two options, either if there's if the sag is involved, they can either paid out of the budget to residuals or they can make a payable out of the revenues. Now, if the moment that residuals are payable out of the revenues, that the SEC basically enforces, or or they they're obliged to produce it to, to enter into a collection account management agreement. If it was without a collection account, then then the distributors of the film, so the moment that the that the sales agent, on behalf of the producer start start starts to sell the film internationally, all those single distributors, and they were talking maybe about 20 or 25, territories, right, different territories, and different MTC, etc, then those revenues would go typically, first to the to the agent to the shelf agent, the sales agent who's in accordance with the sales agency agreement, Dave says commission and expenses for the remainder to the to the LLC, the pension company, and that

Alex Ferrari 18:17
Those expenses can be a little bit pricey sometimes. That's

David Zannoni 18:22
That's the issue and and, you know, if if anything, I mean, whatever ends up with the production company, the producer would then it would still need to hire always should pay more house to calculate the residuals and, and pay those residuals. But whether whether we're talking about payment of residuals, right, or repayment of an investment, or deferred producer fees, at the end of the day, the whole structure of selling the film, distributing the film, receiving those revenues through Association and from there, as independent producers having to deal with all those single payments. And again, in accordance with all those single agreements and the single guilty terms. That's probably the the biggest hassle, the biggest risk. So and if if the producers do not deal with it properly, then they have obviously a huge issue with with the SEC. So without a collection account, they have to would have to deal with it themselves. And from experience nine out of 10. You know, that's a that's a real real challenge.

Alex Ferrari 19:33
Now, how did distributors generally pay out to producers, for people in the in the audience who don't know exactly how that works?

David Zannoni 19:41
Sure. And first of all, you referring to distributors to the local distributors, you're referring to the agents shield agents selling the film internationally.

Alex Ferrari 19:49
And I'm talking more about the distributor. If everything goes through a sales agent, there's one way if you used to make a deal with a local distributor here in the United States, let's say so you just you go with gravatar so you go with a 24? Or you go with any of these guys, how do they normally, you know, how to how do payments come out generally? And how do they get to the producer? And then and then please explain that sales producer aspect of it as well as sales aspects as well.

David Zannoni 20:16
Okay, so yeah, are there a couple of different deals that that produce basically can can make with distributors, it's can be straight distribution can be an mg. If it's straight distribution, it completely depends on how the film basically performs locally. And you know, when it comes from the from the theaters, from the exhibitors to the distributor, there's a certain mechanism, the split between distributor and exhibitor, it ends up with the distributor, and then there's, and that's all negotiable between producers and distributors, there's a certain formula between in terms of split between a distributor and unlicensed or producer. So at the end of the day, only a small portion of the revenues end up with the producer. Now, if if the distributor has expenses to recoup, which could be you know, being a distribution expenses, etc, it may well be that if the film doesn't perform properly, that there's nothing that for the producer and the whole, the whole charge is obviously to make sure that the distribution distributors accounting is is proper, and that's been up to date, you know, it is so this is a very delicate, gray area. Great. Let's go the gray area. Yeah. Now, if it's a minimum guarantee, you know, it depends on on what the secret but it's usually a couple of installments, two or three, and they pay those those installments to the the production company

Alex Ferrari 21:47
Generally by quarter.

David Zannoni 21:49
Yeah, indeed. And if there, if there is a collection account in between those monies would go through the collection account on behalf of the of the producer right now. And that's let's say domestic distribution and international distribution. A, the traditional way is for producers to hire sales agents. The sales agent has its its its own infrastructure, its relationships, context with local distributors. And it basically on behalf to producer sell stole stole the rights to to local distributors. And it's very rare to see straight distribution deal. So it's almost always made him guarantees. And that's the same thing, it's a couple of installments. The distributor basically pays. And again, it could be two or three or four installments. And those revenues would without a collection account, first go to the sales agent from the shell say to do production company, whether collection accounts, the distributors locally. So whether that's in Germany, or Japan or Mexico, they will they pay directly to the collection account. And from the collection account, we actually we pay the sales agent. So by doing this, you basically take control away from from the sales agent, at least control over the revenues. And you know exactly what's coming in, you know exactly what's coming in. So basically what a collection account manager typically does for every single payment that is received in the collection account, it sends a payment notification to all parties involved. And issue statements every month or required. It depends what's been negotiated between the parties, and those statements contain gross receipts report. So basically, the monies received in the accounts with the breakdown per territory, and and per distributor, and it basically shows the deal the commercial deal negotiated by the sales agent. So for example, whatever $50,000 dollars mg from Mexico, and $25,000 already paid so $25,000 attending. So everybody involved in the film, basically is aware of, of the revenues received and still pending. And at the same time, the collection account manager pays the sales edge, its commission expenses and the expenses. Usually there's a cap negotiated and if an agent claims expenses above the cap, the collection government typically needs the approval from the producer. So it is there to basically protect not only the producers position but also the sales agent, right? Because also up to the cap there's no discussion right so it's just payable to the sales agent is seen it as basically customary In connection with selling the film, but at the same time, it cannot claim, for example, $2 million shift of marketing expenses in Canada. It's impossible, because we don't really never, never approve it. And we all know that it will be nonsense.

Alex Ferrari 25:19
Now, what is the craziest creative accounting story you've ever heard? Because I've heard of a couple I mean, but like you're dealing with all of these distributors, where you go, and you look at the numbers, and you just go, Oh, come on, guys, come on.

David Zannoni 25:39
Crazy counting stories. I mean, I think the typical things whereby you could argue question, now whether or not the over talking about a distributor in the US a local distributor straight distribution, whether those monies, if it's really what they're reporting, if those revenue, that's really the, the revenues left, after they recoup their expenses, and mpma. On the international side, it's not so much on the accounting side, trying to remember I've seen what i what i have see is, you know, people just just just faking agreements and falsifying letters of direction. So for example, there's in the collection agreement, we agree whatever that there is an amount payable to, to the producer. Let's say 250,000. I remember one couple films we received from from the shelf agent actually, won't room Ron mentioned the name. Of course, we don't we don't work with them anymore, sir. But you know, just amendments, saying, you know, this was signed by this is produce a signature, my signature, just please sign literally, literally, to the tune of 50,000 people now be able to me, you know, for whatever reason, we got a couple of these amended for a couple of films. And obviously the first thing that we do and that's the you know, the power of of being in control the revenues, you're obviously checking, or this is coming from shellfish, which got a questionable reputation anyway, we're going to just go first of all, always check with the producer, if he still did come forward, the signature, but it doesn't say anything. And just we figured out that it was just a complete scam.

Alex Ferrari 27:26
There's a lot of that stuff that goes on in, especially in distribution. And I've heard just horror stories where, you know, I just heard a horror story the other day that there was a film where a distributor was, was going to about to make a deal with Miramax. This is back in the 90s which obviously, in the 90s, Miramax was at the top of their powers. And, and another product, another distributor, took the film and said, Hey, I'm going to sell it and they sold it overseas, and I can without their permission. And by the time it was already too late, they already sold the movie and they lost the deal with Miramax lost millions of dollars.

David Zannoni 28:07
Yeah. And if the thing is once once there's a collection account in place, the the number of incidents of these kinds of things happening is actually rare. Because people know that there's a collection company, maybe

Alex Ferrari 28:23
Maybe it's a babysitter

David Zannoni 28:24
Babysitting. Exactly. So they know you know, they don't want to they don't want to mess up with with with the reputation they know that everything is being watched and monitored. So it doesn't happen that often now without a collection account and obviously I've got these conversations very often when people get interesting collection account management, you know, the stories I hear from from from from independent producers, the way that they're just being being screw this just is tremendous. I mean, indeed stories about people agent selling their, their their film, they don't know anything about you know, if the film was actually sold if the rights were relicensed and any people I've heard stories, people ending up with the film being licensed twice, just because they never received the information from the agent who on their behalf already have licensed the film in a certain territory but never informed the producers. And once the agent got kicked off, the producer started to do you know to distribute the film themselves and they ended up basically licensing the film twice, and it could end they can could end up with first of all the film is will never ever be properly distributed. So you lose basically everything the opportunity to show the film, but also obviously financially and it can end up in an in a big mess. And one of the things that you actually try to avoid with having collection account management in place is precisely this because it doesn't know having a babysitter. Alex doesn't prevent the case of dancing on the table. If you really, really knowledge gets, of course, you know, when I say people who want to scam that they will always do. But the thing is with a collection account in place, you probably figure it out at a very early stage. And you also having a company that's been in business for for more than 20 years, and also many films, many and so forth in so many aspects of, of the film business nobody wants to mess with with the reputation. So it's a lot less likely. And if it happens, you usually figure it out pretty soon.

Alex Ferrari 30:40
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. Right, exactly. So you'll catch them on the table quicker than if there was nobody there. There'll be dancing on the table for hours. Now, is there any tips you can give on how filmmakers should? Or things that should filmmakers should look out for when dealing with a distributor? Like things or maybe are like red? Red Flags?

David Zannoni 31:13
Yeah. Well, I would first of all, always, it we always speak about sales agent, the distributor. So when filmmakers do with sales agents who sell the film's their films internationally, they should definitely make sure that the agent has a proper reputation that for example, the agent works with, with collection accounts, right and it's something the producer can actually enforce in associates up with just by adding a line, you know, we will, we will contract a independent neutral third party will take care of receiving allocating the revenues, I think, at least from our perspective, and it's, it's fair, that's something we always recommend filmmakers ship to do.

Alex Ferrari 32:01
More specifically for international, but also also it works as well, for domestic,

David Zannoni 32:05
It depends, it depends how the film was being distributed, it could also be domestic. Now if it's done domestic, it could be done through sales agents, sometimes it's through one of the agencies, I would also base disabled go for, for for for the agencies, right. So just to make sure that the monies are that the whole payment of the revenues of the MG, or royalties are done through collection accounts. That's important. Now, I would always say Check, check the the distributors check their reputation, check their, to the extent possible, their, their their payment behavior. That's extremely important. And maybe going back to mistakes people make. The problem very often is is that it's very difficult to get a film made, it's very difficult to get a film financed very difficult to get to feel distributed. So. So once people are in the process, and it all starts to happen, obviously, they're excited. And it's also I think, part of human nature, once we start to work together with people and everything is beautiful, and everything's fantastic that you don't want to think about what could possibly go wrong.

Alex Ferrari 33:17
Of course,

David Zannoni 33:18
And that's that's that that's it, that's a human thing. But we have to. So even if this is produced or offered a deal by distributor negotiating an interesting deal, I think they should always look first of all, if it makes sense for their film, creatively, of course, but also financially and business wise. So that they get a good deal. So whether the straight distribution makes sense or not worth the minimum guarantee actually makes make sense. And I think in a general thing, dealing with distributors and doing those doing the deals, looking if if, if the money if there's enough, being generated to, to to at least pay back, you know, the, the their investors. So basically, with, with, with all the deals in mind, are the deals that I'm closing. And I'm aware that it's not always you cannot always control it. But to the largest impossible with all the commitments I have. Am I closing the right deals?

Alex Ferrari 34:21
Right. Okay. Now 10? Can you tell me what Tell me what your company or where the benefit of working with a company like yours is for filmmakers, even on a smaller scale as opposed to a bigger independent film? And do you do have a minimum? Do you work with certain filmmakers, certain budget ranges? Or do you work with all ranges?

David Zannoni 34:42
Yeah, so let's to answer the last question. We work with everybody. And there's no minimum. So we have done I mean, just to give a couple of examples, the we've done the Terminator films, Paranormal Activity Also Hacksaw Ridge recently spotlights, see within their eyes, which are pretty big, independent films are very successful, are they independent films, many of them are in a way

Alex Ferrari 35:14
Independently financed and then picked independently financed,

David Zannoni 35:17
Although they may be through, you know, to to production companies. But they are independently financed and produced and distributed. Now, but we also at the same time, you know, we do small documentaries, we do a lot of foreign films, many films in Spain, Latin America, so there's no, no real minimum, it makes a difference in the price, you know, without going too much in detail. And I guess it goes for all production account management, because it's all based on on revenue. So usually, typically, collection companies takes a percentage. Now, if it's a big project, and a lot of revenues expected, the fees can be very competitive, if it's a small thing, at the end of the day is you know, it's all private. It's all private business. So people have to make money, the fees are generally a little bit higher. Now, it always makes sense to have a collection account in place, Alex, and I don't only say this webinar with my head of representative of Senator Charles. But But even if people have to pay a relatively high C, to say, to have a collection account in place, at the very least, they they know that the revenues that are received are being properly paid out. And again, nine out of 10 cases where there are many parties involved, that doesn't happen. So in terms of benefits, yet again, the guarantee that the monies received are properly paid out to the benefit of the film. So everybody gets his or her share of the revenues. That's that's the only the biggest benefit. But also, another thing is basically, yes, see a collection account management company as an as an outsourced opportunity, because, you know, it's not only receiving all those revenues, paying them out properly. It's also producing payment notifications, right, every single payment received to a payment notification to all beneficiaries, statements being issued, maybe once a month, or maybe a film generates revenues for three or four years substantial methods. So maybe they're on a film, though, 20 or 30 statements. But also, and I don't think I mentioned that before, but the collection account manager also typically collect all relevant information, financially relevant information on the film, from the shelf age, and so distribution agreements, sales reports, etc, etc, just to make a central point in which all the administration is, is put together. So all that work is a lot of work. And imagine an independent producer taking care of all this. So it's also outsourcing. Now, another benefit is avoidance of conflicts, just by entering into more multi party agreement with all the parties with a financial interest in the film. And everybody's signing off in the collection account management agreement on the fact that the collection agreement supersedes all the single deal terms at least with respect to revenues, it means that you just avoid conflict. Right? Yeah. So I guess these are the main benefits. Do you created maybe just quickly, also creating transparency, just the fact that everything is shown in the open the deals done with distributors where the rights are for how long for how many years? In which territories?

Alex Ferrari 38:51
A massive amount of work in the back end? Yeah, massive amount. Now, let me ask you a question. Do you mind me asking what the ranges are, as far as the percentages are?

David Zannoni 39:01
Sure. So typically, it's it's it's typically 1% or or less. Now, I have to be careful, should we? And I think all players, so all collection account manager and by the way, there are a lot, but I know we all do the same thing. So we look at the film, we always want to know what's the size of the film? And what's the complexity, so size? How many revenues can be expected, basically, and complexity? are we paying two parties or 100 parties, for example, and based on that we we can't. So every project is different, but on average, I would say it starts at 1%. And then it can go down with a sliding scale. And depending on the film, again, if it's a big film, that should be more than sufficient if it's a small film, or documentary, generally, there's a setup fee charged. Just to give you very quickly examples. If a film expects whatever, say $100 million in revenues? Well, this is a very it's no problem, no discussion. Now, if it's a small thing that we have done, the documentaries were excellent. For four or five years, 4000 bucks. So can you send me? Can you

Alex Ferrari 40:22
Say that again, you just broke up a little bit.

David Zannoni 40:24
Also. So if there's a documentary that generates or expects $100,000, well, if it was only 1%, it would be $1,000. And you cannot manage the film, the revenues and administration for four or five years for 1000 bucks, that's impossible. So then we have to charge a setup fee. And again, that can be between 2010 $1,000 completely again, depending on the size of the film. But again, even if you have to pay a setup fee, and the revenues on these $100,000, you know that at least those $100,000 are properly received and properly paid out. The risk is average, it's and that risk is very real, that if you don't have a collection account in place, you should think, well, I've received a cease Yeah, doesn't make sense that there's a there's a real risk that you don't see a penny, there's nothing received at all,

Alex Ferrari 41:22
Especially everyone else was especially at that budget range. You know, when you're when you're talking about $100,000, you know, the chances you actually getting money back out of that 100 1000s of revenue, depending on the kind of deals you've got set up with your sales agent and or distributor. Is it can be challenging, you know, I I've seen it, it's no question.

David Zannoni 41:48
Yeah. And we say, well, maybe you have to pay whatever, just for the sake of the discussion, the $7,000 in collection fees, because on the $1,000, it's already seven half percent for the collection account manager, we say well, that it's 90, what is it 92.5% for the rest of year, rather than zero. So I of course, I'm not saying I'm not saying that if there's no collection account in place, sure. Then immediately it means that there are no revenues. Now, of course, the reality of the industry is that it's pretty challenging.

Alex Ferrari 42:22
So it all depends on the project. And then again, everything's negotiate and negotiable, you know, once Of course,

David Zannoni 42:28
With insert their majors, but of course, everything depends on again, size, complexity, and maybe also avoid but also for, for, for financial needs. And I guess we're, we're everybody's pretty similar in this. In this industries, all other collection combinations will do the same. At the end of the day, we want to work with all the filmmakers. So you don't want to put a burden. We always try to find a way to work together, because you want this service to be available for everybody. That's one thing that's the you know, the and then on the other hand producer makes a small, short film or documentary today, maybe tomorrow makes the next big the big thing around, so we always try to make it work. Now,

Alex Ferrari 43:15
I'm going to ask you a few questions asked all my guests, so it's gonna become rapid fire. Can you tell me a book that had the biggest impact on your life or career?

David Zannoni 43:23
Oh, that's a challenging one, Alex. You know, I think personal life and career it all comes pretty much together. For me, which which has been a very, to date, very important book is actually it's called gafa Islam, which is from Carlos Castaneda. It's about now that we know the book. I know Carlos,

Alex Ferrari 43:52
Without question.

David Zannoni 43:53
It's Latin American literature. And it's, yeah, it's about a shaman. Who if I remember well, it's that that basically shows this very successful businessman from the US I do. Remember, we're sitting somewhere in the desert between the US and Mexico, what the real essence of life is. So nature being close to nature. And one of the things I always remembered that we had take, basically with me every day, almost the fact that there's a story about the death, you know, the depth following us as a shadow wherever we go. So if you look quickly, you can see them and basically it shows you that every day could be your last day and I think if you live like that, maybe for some people it would be depressing but the the of the I think it makes you appreciate everything in life every day. So for me, it's been a very important book in my profession, but in the broadest sense in my entire life. Now, the name of the book was journey. The journey to Islam. Yes. Journey to Islam. Yeah. Carlos Castaneda,

Alex Ferrari 44:57
Yeah. And he also wrote the his famous book is the teachings have done one. Yeah, yes, that's insane. Yes. So don't want don't want Yes, I've read yeah to an insane book his all his books are amazing, but fantastic book. Now what lesson took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life? I know these are big.

David Zannoni 45:18
This these are these are really complicated questions deep you know, maybe If I look at my life, the lesson took you the longest, maybe the lesson that life is short, and that you have to do whatever you want to do you have to do today. And maybe from a personal note, you know, I, I love Latin America, I love Mexico where I live nowadays, but it took me a very long time to, to realize that this is my, you know, my journey, my path in life. And if you're from a very developed city, maybe not a good word to say, because developed again, is for everybody different. But let's say a very easygoing country like Holland and you've got everything. And then moving to a more difficult country like Mexico, that's that's a big decision. But I realized that you just only live once in life, you know, you've got people say, I wait until I'm 65. And then I retire or people say, you know, I'm just going to finish my job, and I do my career. And once I have enough experience, I'm gonna do this. My lesson would be also but I would tell people just do it today. You only live once, but it took me too long to realize, but I'm happy that I took the decision and that I realized that still still on time.

Alex Ferrari 46:43
Yes, exactly. And we're at the end of the day, we're only in a race with ourselves, I guess. Now, what are three of your favorite films of all time?

David Zannoni 46:54
Favorite films of all time? I mean, depends on

Alex Ferrari 46:58
Today. Today today.

David Zannoni 46:59
Yeah, let's, you know, because of the the whole thing I I watched the original film again, I have to say it, although it's looking back at now, as an adult. They did, but I still like it very much. Sixth Sense. Now, it's actually one of the best things. I think this films ever. And then, you know, I really like the more light in the Spanish Spanish films, or Latin American films are so many great films. Probably I would say, Is this the secret in their eyes, but the original one so segreto sawhorse. I think it was great. Argentinian film. I think they even won Best Foreign Film couple of years back. Yeah, fantastic. And also because it shows so much about Latin American society, about Argentina in, in particular, all those films where you really, you know, can be the feel. But, but people are actually culturally doing. For me. That's, that's, that's, that's amazing. There are many, many other films but Latin America, but these are the three.

Alex Ferrari 48:17
And then where can people find you and learn more about your service?

David Zannoni 48:22
Where where they can find me? I would say they can all come over to Quintana Roo, Mexico. Welcome to Cancun.

Alex Ferrari 48:32
They'll give your home address more online where they can find

David Zannoni 48:37
You can find me on on LinkedIn, probably the easiest. And otherwise they can go to the vintage house webpage. But I guess if they typed me in LinkedIn, there are no there are not so many days. It's a known issue in this world. So people should be able to find me,

Alex Ferrari 48:53
David, thank you so much for taking the time out to educate the tribe about this. This this, this aspect of the film business that I've never really gone deep into and I'm glad that we had you as a resource to to explain it all to us. So thanks again, David.

David Zannoni 49:09
Well, thank you very much for having me Alex. It was a pleasure and I hope it's it's useful for the for the for the community for the tribe.

Alex Ferrari 49:15
Thank you my friend.

David Zannoni 49:17
Take care.

Alex Ferrari 49:18
Many knowledge bombs were dropped in this episode. Thank you, David, so much for jumping on the podcast and, and sharing all your knowledge and wisdom with the tribe. I know I learned a lot Honestly, this was an area of the film industry that I just really didn't know anything about. I hurt a little bit here and there but nothing as detailed as what was laid out in this episode. And you know, I know a lot of you are micro budget filmmakers, low budget filmmakers that you're like, well, I don't have to worry about that. Alex my budget 15 Grand 20 grand. Yeah, I get it, but at least you get a little understanding of what to do. Once you get bigger budgets and I know for a fact that a lot of people listening a lot of people in the tribe are working on 100 200 A $500 million $2 million movies as well. So this is something you should really look into and understand very carefully moving forward because it can definitely be a pitfall for filmmakers if they're not aware of what to do and how to do it. And you know, in all honesty, to being involved with so many projects over the years, having a a middleman or a middle person who handles all the money and there's not emotional about it, God, that's a really good thing to do. Because filmmakers, creatives, producers, directors, egos, everything gets out of hand sometimes. And, and it's always good to have someone with a, a non no side, Switzerland, if you will, someone right in the middle, who's not going to take any sides and just do what was contractually set up to do in the first place. So definitely check it out, guys. And if you want to get a you want to reach out to David, or vintage Charles, or any of anything we talked about in this episode, head over to indiefilmhustle.com/228 for the show notes where I'll leave all his contact information. And don't forget, we are launching Suzanne Lyons indie film producing masterclass on April 9, and if you want to get in early and get a special early bird discount and get access to to the to the course, a little earlier than everybody else, just email me at [email protected]. And let me know that you want me put on the list and we'll put you on the list, the list is starting to get fairly big because a lot of people want to get in this and I'm telling you this course is insane is about five, six hours, it was normally a 2000 to 20 $500 course or workshop that she gave, and we put it on, we put it on film, and put it on an online course for everybody in the world. It could not get to our workshops to have access to insane, insane knowledge as well as any kind of paperwork you might need to raise money to make a movie contract agreements, all included in this course. So definitely check it out. And I have a slight little bit of big news coming up. In the next few episodes I will be announcing it soon. Has nothing to do with ego and desire. Though I can't wait to hopefully give you some great news about ego and desire soon. But this is about something else. We're going to be doing something else very cool at indie film hustle. And it's it's a pretty big deal. So I can't wait to to share that with you. So I'm getting close to launching, getting close to finishing it up. I've been working quietly in hard at in the lab. Getting it all ready for you guys. So thanks for listening, guys. And as always keep that also going. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

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How to Become an Assistant Director

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In the film industry the 1st Assistant Director or “1st AD” is the driving force behind making sure a film is completed, safe and organized. Becoming an Assistant Director can be a tricky thing and becoming a member of the DGA (Directors Guild of America) even more difficult.

How do you know if being an Assistant Director is right for you?

Being an AD is tough work and sometimes one of the hardest jobs on set. It’s definitely not a job for everyone and you should evaluate whether or not it’s really a fit for you.

Here are a few factors before you consider the profession:

  • Are you an organization freak?
  • Are you a stickler for punctuality and timeliness?
  • Do you generally love schedules, calendars, and deadlines?
  • Do your friends think of you as practical and level-headed?
  • Are you comfortable speaking in front of 300 people and giving direction to large crowds?
  • How do you feel about standing on your feet for 14 hours a day?
  • Do you love solving problems and coming up with solutions in a calm assertive manner?
  • Do you handle well under pressure?
  • Do you love challenges?

If the questions above don’t scare you then continue reading….

What are the paths to becoming an Assistant Director?

Path #1

Start working as a 1st AD or 2nd AD on student projects, short films, music videos for free or cheap. You will gain lots of experience, be forced to solve lots of problems, and have the ability to start building a resume with actual credits that will help you to land your first feature film as a 1st AD or 2nd AD.

Path #2

Work as a Production Assistant or “PA” for short.  Now getting a job as a PA is competitive so building a good resume and maintaining key contacts is essential. You might end up working free or low-paying jobs at first.

Path #3

Apply to be a DGA Trainee. Essentially if you are one of the few chosen each year you will be enrolled in a training program that will actually secure work as a trainee and eventually membership into the guild. Trainees meet lots of great contacts and in general get the best training available.

https://www.trainingplan.org/ to apply

Path #4

Produce your own projects and then hire yourself as the 1st AD.  While this may sound unconventional it is a path that some take.

Is it important to attend film school to be an Assistant Director?

Yes and No.

I know ADs who attended film school and those who skipped it all together. I personally went the film school route and believe it certainly helped me in some areas. I do think that a majority of what I have learned as an AD has been in the trenches doing the job and learning from other ADs and Producers. If you want to eventually director or produce, then film school definitely has its advantages and value that can be difficult to learn on set.

Where should I live if I want to break into the industry and work as an AD or PA?

Pick a state that has good tax incentives or consider a large market such as Los Angeles or Atlanta, or New York.

If you want to be a big fish in a small pond consider a state such as Kentucky or Louisiana.

Check out this interactive map that will show you what the current incentives are available across the US.

By living in a state with high tax incentives you are increasing your chances of finding work even though this is not always the case. Some producers may choose to film in a state with no incentives just because they have access to certain locations or crew in that state.

What tools should I have if I want to be an AD?

Having the right tools and equipment will help you to be successful onset. Yes, it can be expensive when you first start out, but not having the right tools can cost you a lot more in the long run. 

What skills should I learn to be an Assistant Director?

  1. Learn how to schedule a film. You must buy/own. You can watch these useful tutorial videos on Youtube (see video below), take an EP training class, or find an AD who can show you the ropes with MMS.
  2. Understand scene blocking, the line, and general directing basics. Consider taking the Master Class with Ron Howard or a workshop on Directing basics.
  3. Know how to update a script and show a first-time Director how to update a script using Final Draft. Good knowledge of script colors, revisions mode, and how to update scene numbers is essential.
  4. Know the ins and outs of creating a great call sheet.
  5. Understand how to run a production mtg / page turn and a tech scout.
  6. Know how to creatively set and run background action so that it looks realistic.
  7. As an Assistant Director, you are essentially a leader on set. Read as many leadership books as you can and even consider attending leadership or business seminars from time to time.

What resources are out there to learn more about Assistant Directing?

  1. Liz Gill’s book.
  2. PA Boot Camp is a great training event that will give you the essential tools to being a PA which can be a great path to being an AD.

Brandon Riley is the President of Radiant First Productions where he develops and produces Film/TV projects. Having worked on more than 30+ movies as a Line Producer / UPM or AD, and as a member of both the PGA and DGA, Brandon brings a wealth of knowledge to any set. Brandon is the author of and runs a blog called assistantdirecting.com.

 

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IFH 220: How to Package an Indie Film for Investors with Tiffany Boyle

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Right-click here to download the MP3

Today on the show is Tiffany Boyle from Ramo Law. Tiffany helps indie filmmakers package their projects in a way that helps them attract producers, investors, other top-end actors, and studios. We had a great conversation at this year’s Sundance Film Festival. Here’s some info on today’s guest.

Tiffany Boyle has been with Ramo Law since 2009, where she works with the attorneys to review, collaborate, develop, submit and supervise creative materials on behalf of clients within the Firm. Boyle actively works with clients in connection to production and distribution opportunities that bring their new material to life. From television (unscripted/scripted) to feature films to internet properties, she oversees all creative content represented by the firm. Her recent projects include REBIRTH (Netflix original film), YOUTH IN OREGON (starring Christine Applegate, Billy Crudup, and Frank Langella), SPRING (premiered in TIFF), THE 12TH HOUR (documentary narrated by Jeff Bridges), STUCK IN LOVE(starring Greg Kinnear and Jennifer Connelly), FRANKIE GO BOOM (starring Charlie Hunnam), SOME GIRL(S) (starring Adam Brody), and FREE SAMPLES (starring Jesse Eisenberg). She also executive produced I-LIVED (directed by Franck Khalfoun).

Prior to joining Ramo Law, Boyle was the Director of Sales at Crystal Sky Pictures (GHOST RIDER, TEKKEN). Her responsibilities included the creation of marketing materials, coordination of marketing and delivery materials for international buyers and planning and selling at markets and festivals (including EFM, AFM, Marche Du Film, MIPCOM, Sundance and Toronto). She also acted as the financial intermediary for buyer collections and proper bank filings.

Boyle was previously a development assistant at Crystal Sky, working under the head of production Benedict Carver (UNDERWORLD, RESIDENT EVIL) and head of international sales Daniel Diamond (THE BELIEVER). She worked in all aspects of production on the company’s films, including DOOMSDAY, BIG STAN and BRATZ.

Thanks again to Media Circus PR who co-produced these podcasts episodes with me. Enjoy my interview with Tiffany Boyle.

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Alex Ferrari 2:08
And today's guest is one of those people, Tiffany Boyle from Romo law is a packaging expert. What she does is help independent filmmakers put together packages to attract producers to attract investors to attract high end talent, distribution, everything and she's able to understand the marketplace and kind of destructure projects in a way that gives them the best opportunity to succeed. And I never had anyone like this on the show. So I really wanted to dig in and see exactly what she's doing and how she's doing it. So she gave us a lot of secrets in this in this interview. And I'm very excited to bring it to you guys. So without any further ado, here is my interview with Tiffany Boyle. I'd like to welcome the show. Tiffany Boyle. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Tiffany Boyle 2:58
Thank you for having me.

Alex Ferrari 2:59
I hear your voice is very Sundancey.

Tiffany Boyle 3:01
Yeah, you know, it's that time of Sundance where everybody can speak.

Alex Ferrari 3:04
Yeah, so I don't have the Barry White generally. So, um, so tell me, how did you get in the business in the first place?

Tiffany Boyle 3:11
I grew up I always wanted to be in the film industry. And so I knew I wanted to since high school and came out to LMU for film school and then luckily found a job immediately after and foreign sales world and continue from there.

Alex Ferrari 3:26
So like you how you got an early in foreign sales.

Tiffany Boyle 3:30
Yeah, I was right out of college.

Alex Ferrari 3:32
Oh, great.

Tiffany Boyle 3:33
Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 3:34
Foreign sales isn't very educational.

Tiffany Boyle 3:37
Yeah, I didn't even know. school didn't teach you about. So I didn't know existed. So it was very, it was an extra. I was paid to learn about it.

Alex Ferrari 3:47
So a lot of FM's a lot of can.

Tiffany Boyle 3:49
Yeah. And then my husband and AFM.

Alex Ferrari 3:51
Oh, really? Yeah. Very cool. So what are you doing now?

Tiffany Boyle 3:54
Now I work at Remo law, which is an entertainment law firm. And we represent mostly producers, finance ears and a handful of writers.

Alex Ferrari 4:01
And you do sales and packaging.

Tiffany Boyle 4:02
Yeah, I'm not an attorney. Right? I run the patching and sales arm of the firm, which really helps clients develop business oriented packaging and

Alex Ferrari 4:12
Business orientated packaging. Can you define that for everyone?

Tiffany Boyle 4:15
I'm not going to help you get Brad Pitt attached to your movie. It's more about finding the right producing partners, qualified partners, e.p. And then sometimes its earlier most of the time it's post selling, but also figuring out your sales agent and distribution.

Alex Ferrari 4:32
So what's the process? Let's say I'm a filmmaker. I've got an I have a script. Obviously, it's an Oscar winning script. It's an Oscar. It's a great script. What's the process? How does how does someone even go down the path to work with you?

Tiffany Boyle 4:45
Yeah, it I've had people come to me with just a clean script. And I've had people come to me with completed films looking for distribution. So I really can look at content in any and all of those phases. So let's say the screenplay let's think Yeah, just screenplay only typically it's me looking at the screen. First, seeing if it's something that I feel I can even push forward, and from there having a open discussion about, like, what their expectations are versus what I can really do with it. And clean scrubs, really, it's about finding the producer first, that really, you know, they're the backbone of getting a film made. And so I really focus on mining producers, production companies. And once that comes in, I kind of act almost in like an EP role where while the producer is helping push it forward, I'm kind of surrounding it and then moving the pinging in as needed.

Alex Ferrari 5:35
You're moving the pieces to try to help get Yeah, yeah. And and then when someone has a full movie, what are they? What's the process there?

Tiffany Boyle 5:43
I take a look at the screener. And we have another frank discussion about,

Alex Ferrari 5:48
Let's let's just talk about the frank discussions, because I think it's something that isn't talking to film school is a lot of delusions of grandeur. Yes. And there's a lot of expectations. Yeah. Because it's your baby. It's I've worked two years on this script, or I worked two years in this movie. It's something that I've run into a lot in my doing what I do, how do you have that conversation with filmmakers? And can you give a good example and a bad example of after that conversation with Tony?

Tiffany Boyle 6:15
Yeah, um, it I tend to be a bit more on the Frank side, which, you know, can be frustrating for specific potential clients. But I'd rather be honest and open about it up front, then promise and I'll be able to deliver on it. Right. So, you know, I've had, I've had, I have one client right now working on an $11 million film that just unfortunately, doesn't have enough cash. But it's really well shot, it's well done. And it's finished, it's finished. And, you know, he, I've been super upfront with him about how, because of the cast has been hard, and he still really believes in the movie, but he just takes me telling him what I need. And he he's one of those guys who just kind of understands and is okay with the fact that like, he helped it in TNA if he has to later but he, he's okay with my bluntness. And in LA, that's actually quite appreciate it. It's in the right hands. Yeah. If it's the right kind of person who's been down that path. And who's been like, I guess, mishandled in the past? Yeah. They tend to appreciate more when you just say it how it is. And if it turns out better, great, great, but at least you know, I'm kind of giving you the conservative, this is what I think the outcome will look like. And there have been some that have said, you know, like, I've read scripts and given them feedback, and they get very upset. You don't know what you're talking and sales a package? Yeah. And my answer is always well, you know, this is how I feel. And you know, you are obviously entitled to your opinion. And, you know, I'm always here to kind of read a new draft if you're ready, but good. Good luck!

Alex Ferrari 7:50
You're very sweet about it, though. You've been just while you're talking about I try to try to be your kind I could get that. That energy coming from us. You're kind about it like, Look, it's not gonna work out. You know, it's kind of like I have a $20 million budget, and I have no stars. And it's black and white. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And it's not going to get into any festivals. And all of a sudden, like, I need I need you to sell this for me.

Tiffany Boyle 8:10
Yeah. And but I would love for you to prove me wrong, please. I would love that. But this is what I'm seeing. I you know, we work on the firm works on 90 films a year. So I'm in I track all of them. And I and I watch the reports coming back from all of them. And I have a good sense of what's selling where, why how and so it's not an uneducated response.

Alex Ferrari 8:33
Right. And so when you're packaging, let's say, for screenplay, let's say we've gone past it's a good screenplay. And then at that point, you say, Okay, look, we think this has legs, we can really think we could do something with this. And although all the stars are aligning, at that point, do you go Okay, well, you need to hire, we need to attach a good producer. Yeah. Once that producer comes on, then that will attract certain talent. But yes, producer at the director, when is the director come in?

Tiffany Boyle 8:58
Usually, it depends on the producers viewpoint at that point. I find some producers really have great direct relationships, and they go that route first versus others that have more financing relationships, and they go that route first. Or, or it's really all at once. It's a crap, you know, there's no right way to make or TV. So I have, for example, like I have one project where I brought in a producer who's had some phones that have been nominated for Oscars in the past. And she immediately brought in a really quality female director. And then I've had I have another one, where we brought in the producer and then I they have been kind of having a hard time finding the right people for it. So I brought it to an investor and now he's coming in bring in people, there's just a

Alex Ferrari 9:42
Million ways to make that cake. Yeah, without question and then as far as distribution is concerned, and you how what's the process that you do you find a producer's rep that can help So can you talk a little bit about that process?

Tiffany Boyle 9:56
Yeah, if it's, I would gauge again the expectations of the client Sometimes it's also about did we do production legal on it? Or was this somebody that just kind of found us later. And if we do production legal on it will typically be more involved in helping them find the distribution directly. But if it's something that gets into like Sundance or you know, one of the bigger festivals that I really go through the path of trying to find the rap either one of the agencies, circus roads, or Marine, those types of companies Got you. And then every film has a different path and distribution, some can go one way, or the other, depending on star quality.

Alex Ferrari 10:35
How do you do at that point, once it's in the producer apps, and you kind of just I'm out?

Tiffany Boyle 10:40
No. Okay. Usually, usually, I'm also hired on to help track reporting and financing coming in. distributors and sales agents, not all of them, but some of them to be a little sneaky. So, repeaters being sneaky. Yeah, that is a that is a exclusive here. So I tend to track the reporting. Make sure it looks good. ask the right questions to distributors about what what is this manufacturing cost? exceeding what we have for you agreement? And you're going through it? And you're Yeah, compared to this deal? And make sure that they're, yeah, keep keep keep it keeping them honest. Yeah, cuz there's a really sorry, I have a worse No, please, please. You know, that good stuff.

Alex Ferrari 11:25
So then, yes, because I've had a lot of experience with distributors as well. You know, so then all of a sudden, the poster cost $20,000. Yeah. Which it can depending on? Well, yes. But if your movie cost 20,000. What kind of budget ranges Do you work with? And do you work with a micro budget film? Yeah, the proper, you know, festival or something like that?

Tiffany Boyle 11:46
Yeah. I'm sorry.

Alex Ferrari 11:49
It's okay. Good Ahead.

Tiffany Boyle 11:52
Yes, we work on micro budget, all the way up to we've worked on 30 to 40 million movies, I tend to not go that high. Because at that point, it's usually just studio and you're never it's, there's no. But usually up to 15 to 20.

Alex Ferrari 12:08
What's the low?

Tiffany Boyle 12:09
50

Alex Ferrari 12:10
50 grand right. Yeah, that's Yeah, that's and that's amazing. That's really good. So that gets out to filmmakers listening to like, Look, you have a $50,000 movie that actually yeah, match and go somewhere?

Tiffany Boyle 12:19
Yeah, we have 14 phones in the festival that the firm worked on. One of them was, it'll be a little bit more what they do finishing costs, but it wasn't made for 50 grand to get into the basketball.

Alex Ferrari 12:30
That's amazing. Yes. Great. And does it really fulfill you like when you see a movie, go get successful and go all the way through?

Tiffany Boyle 12:37
Yeah, it's so cool. And it's so cool to watch the trajectory of, you know, clients you've worked with and how they're growing and the cool things they get to do after that.

Alex Ferrari 12:48
Now, can you talk a little bit about again, I'm gonna harp on this a little bit expectations for filmmakers out there right now, listening to the podcast, or watching this, about what they can expect cuz I consult with clients all the time, and you'll have million dollar million dollar movies with no stars in it. You might? I'm sorry, I just don't think.

Tiffany Boyle 13:10
I have that very tough conversation on the daily.

Alex Ferrari 13:16
Like the executioner but but but very kindly.

Tiffany Boyle 13:21
Some people listen to what I have to say. And some people kind of tune it out. And that's their prerogative.

Alex Ferrari 13:27
I can't was I just spent a million dollars. I can't listen,

Tiffany Boyle 13:29
I guess I got it. So yeah, you know, but I often, and I will say that, you know, I think distribution right now is kind of like the Wild West. I tell my clients all the time, it's the Wild West, like, I can give you my estimates, I can give you my thoughts about what that's gonna look like. But no, even distributors don't even know what they want right now. And they don't and they're a little all over the place and how they make offers on why they make offers and what they're doing with it. And so I can be as honest as I can about it. But at the end of the day, I don't control what distributors and right exacting offers.

Alex Ferrari 14:07
Now you said about certain talent being touched? Can you please kind of give us a guideline on like, if you have a movie, that's $50,000, you can be a little more experimental. Yeah, question. Yeah. At what point do you have to as a being fiscally responsible to the investors go, look, this is not an art project anymore. You are now in a in a point that 100,000 200,000 like, you've got to have somebody that's going to sell? If not, you know, you're rolling the dice that you get into Sundance when Sunday like now that's a lottery ticket mentality. Yeah. Where what's the threshold In your opinion, like, at certain point, like, if you don't have someone attached, the movie is could be the best thing in the world. But if it doesn't get the attention, you're not gonna make your money back. What's the threshold in European?

Tiffany Boyle 14:52
I'd say it's probably a couple 100 grand but there are factors to it of where it is. best thing in the world, it will find it will find its way. It is a lot about storing lottery tickets. It's still a lottery ticket, it is more risky. Yes, but you know, it is very execution dependent. If you really can deliver, you'll do well. But, like the $50,000 one that we have here, they did a really great job with it. But um, you know, I think if you're going to try to mitigate your risk, it's probably a couple 100 grand. So at that point, you're like, Look, you gotta put someone in there.

Alex Ferrari 15:30
Yeah. So we need to we need to make cage basically the cage and

Tiffany Boyle 15:32
Not at a couple grand

Alex Ferrari 15:34
Can't even get him to show up for less.

Tiffany Boyle 15:38
Like, doing it for his son or something. Right. Yeah. But that's the point. Yeah. And that's where you use sales agents and other you know, people who've been in the industry a long time that have been in the sales world to really help you say, here's some cash that I'm running against this budget. What is that going to look like in terms of my recoupment? Because that's going to be key. And you might think, based upon IMDb, no, no meter rating that that could show the number three person is going to be great. But that's not how it really works in terms of what distributors and foreign buyers are looking for.

Alex Ferrari 16:19
Absolutely. Someone could be extremely popular here in the States being nothing overseas, and not being popular here. Yeah, on a TV show and sell territories like water over correct David Hasselhoff. Even Steven Seagal,Jean Claud Vandame who they sell every year, they're making money. I was already a finisher. Yeah. Did you see the poster? Which was Steven Seagal versus mike tyson? The most afma movie ever? It literally was Steven Seagal person, so that you know it's gonna sell everywhere overseas because of who's attached. Now the one thing I find with with a filmmaker as well as they mix the art with the business. Yeah. And they don't know how to and they don't understand that, that you have to mix. Yeah. So let me say I have a cast list here. What does that mean for my recruitment? But I really want to hire this actor who's never done anything. There's never been anything. She's perfect for the role. He's perfect for the role. And like, if it's great for you want to do that, but you're not going to sell such a difficult conversation. Yeah, you want you really have a tough job. You hold it well, but you do have a tough job having to cut you're constantly Breaking Bad news.

Tiffany Boyle 17:28
I gotta say like, thanks for bringing that to my attention.

Alex Ferrari 17:31
But the point is that you're the thing is, you obviously do a lot of good news as well. But you're the realist, because you've been you've been in the game a long time. Like, look, I've seen this 100 times 1000. Yeah. If you don't do this, this is gonna happen. This scripts not gonna work. That's just my opinion. Yeah, business. So take it early. I'm not perfect. I'm people listen to me. Some people don't. I'm not perfect. Yeah, no. So if you have any advice for filmmakers out there, so one with a script, trying to get some sort of attention. By the way, if someone approaches you with a script, I'm assuming you don't take any script off the street, there has to be a conversation that has to be you have to retain you guys

Tiffany Boyle 18:09
Yeah, there ought to be a conversation and there is a world in which, like, we'll read a script, but you kind of pay me. Of course, no, that's not you. But then there's other things. Sometimes we're like, I'll waive the fee, or, you know, if it's got kind of the right momentum or people behind it, or I've worked with you before, and we have a really great relationship. That Yeah, there's that trust factor there.

Alex Ferrari 18:31
Sure. But as far as distributions going, what advice can you give somebody out there? With that, you know, half million dollar movie with, you know, maybe a few TV stars or something like that, in it?

Tiffany Boyle 18:42
You're going to struggle with a half million dollar movie with the maybe TV stars right now? Unfortunately, it wasn't even that way, like a year or two ago? Um, yeah, especially stars. Yeah. And it's gonna depend on the genre, and obviously, the execution. But if it's a bit more genre, you might be in a little bit better position.

Alex Ferrari 19:01
Can you talk about that genre? What are the genres that are actually selling much better? I know the answer, but what do you mean?

Tiffany Boyle 19:07
I mean, thrillers, if you can make an action film at 500 guy, which, actually my husband does here and there and like they said, Oh, yeah, um, you know, so action films. sci fi, if it doesn't look cheesy, it's a really tough to do a sci fi. Yeah, stuff. And then yeah, family can do well, it's just about how it translates over the rest of the world, right. Um, you know, like a foreign sales agent will be very happy with that family, but it's about like how you recoup and you may not be able to see all of that money back.

Alex Ferrari 19:44
It's a miracle that anyone ever makes movies or gets paid to make movies. Yeah, it really is. Yeah. Now what advice might actually be a question I ask all my guests. First of all, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life? Oh yeah, it got deep.

Tiffany Boyle 20:03
I think it's not worrying and I'm still working on it. Okay, I tend to like focus too much on kind of the little things adding up and don't see the big picture sometimes. And worrying about that. And that's that goes for my job and in my personal life and so I think that that's something I've learned over the years and and still focusing on and not being too anxious about it, you know, life is what it is sometimes just things have got to happen the way they need to sometimes,

Alex Ferrari 20:39
Umm, what advice would you give a filmmaker just starting on the business?

Tiffany Boyle 20:43
My advice is to really, number one, make sure you have good content, you know, getting the right feedback from the right people sending it out, getting reviews, getting coverage, working on your craft, taking notes. Not everyone's going to give you the best notes, but being gracious when somebody is read your script and, and accepting the feedback. And then also, it's networking. I think networking is so important. And not used enough especially because I know writers tend to like to just write they don't want to go out there and do it. But we're not a world anymore. where, you know, agents are just finding you off the street that you got to really put yourself out there and go to those functions and meet people and develop the relationships and almost be your own producer until you get that one.

Alex Ferrari 21:32
And what are your favorite films of all time?

Tiffany Boyle 21:36
Im from Utah, so I love Salt Lake City SLC punk.

Alex Ferrari 21:40
Okay.

Tiffany Boyle 21:43
And then like john Hughes movies like breakfast. Yeah, just your favorite Johnny's Breakfast Club. And then I love like I love grounded sci fi silly I love like I origins and another those types of very cool.

Alex Ferrari 21:59
Well, thank you so much for doing this interview

Tiffany Boyle 22:01
Thank you for having me.

Alex Ferrari 22:02
Pleasure having you

Tiffany Boyle 22:03
Thank you for listening to me.

Alex Ferrari 22:04
Absolutely. Thank you so much. Have you guys picked up some tips and tricks on how to package your film and your project to attract producers, investors and hiring talent that will help you get your film made. So thank you again to Tiffany and romola and I will have all of her links and information and contact info in our show notes at indiefilmhustle.com/219. Guys again, thank you. I know February has been a little rough. For me in the podcast, I am doing the best I can. When I released the information about my top secret project, you will understand why it's been so rough for me. But it I can't wait. I'm just just jonesing to tell you guys what I've been up to. It is going to be explosive, to say the least. So I can't wait to share it with you guys. So just hang in with me for a couple more weeks, March we'll start rocking our normal regularly scheduled programming. But thank you again for your patience. And as always keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 219: Pixar’s Coco and the World of Animation with Carlos Moreno Jr.

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Today on the show is Carlos Moreno Jr. Carlos was the voice of a handful of characters in the Oscar® Nominated Animated Masterpiece “Coco.” [easyazon_link identifier=”B0779FK899″ locale=”US” tag=”whatisbroke-20″]Coco[/easyazon_link] is, by far, one of the best-animated films I’ve ever experienced. It one of my top five films of 2017.

Carlos Moreno Jr., key to the stellar cast of Pixar’s most lauded feature since “Toy Story,” is a name you need to know from “Coco,” the multi-awarded, “Golden Globe” and “Critic’s Choice” winner, was the headline speaker at the Sundance Latino Filmmakers panel where he will launch the Legacy App. (www.legacyapp.co) with the always appealing, creator Mel Ramirez.  This app allows you to share your photos and videos with your loved ones long after you have passed.

This app allows you to share your photos and videos with your loved ones long after you have passed.  A highlight of this stand-alone special Festival programming is the selection of a unique, top-tier film to premiere after the panel which is Moreno’s signature award-winning short, “Panacea.” We are joined by star and co-writer of the short Kyle Devero.

Thanks again to Media Circus PR who co-produced these podcasts episodes with me. Enjoy my interview with Carlos Moreno Jr.

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Alex Ferrari 2:04
Today on the show, we have Carlos Moreno Jr. who is one of the stars of pics Rs, Coco. And one of my favorite films of the year you have not seen Coco, you should definitely watch it is by far one of my favorite films of 2017. And we talk a lot about animation about Pixar about how he's working. And then he's also a director and has a new short film that we're going to talk about as well. And he's involved with this insanely cool app as well, that he's going to be announcing as well. So it's a whole bunch of stuff that we talked about at Sundance. So again, thank you to media circus PR for helping us with the series of interviews, we have a few more left from my Sundance experience. And we're also joined by Kyle Navarro, who is a co writer and star of that short film that we're talking about pancetta so the episode is just pumped full of cool stuff. And we also get a bit emotional in this episode. So without any further ado, here's my conversation with Carlos Moreno Jr.

Welcome to the show, guys. I'd like to welcome

Carlos Moreno Jr. 3:09
Carlos Moreno Jr.

Kyle Devereaux. 3:10
Kyle Devereaux.

Alex Ferrari 3:11
And I want to have you guys on because you have a ton of stuff to talk about. Yeah, many different projects. But first I wanted to get into Coco is arguably my favorite film of the year. absolutely loved and we've never had anyone on the show that talks in that it's been in first of all his work to Pixar and going into animation process. So that must have been telling me what the experience like working behind the curtain?

Carlos Moreno Jr. 3:35
You never know. How is it gonna come out because you're there in a booth and the director is directing you like say this line say word. Can you elongate the word instead of just and it's and and different pitches and different sounds and characters for fun. Which ones were the most memorable? memorable is the porn man. And then I have the other the other funny little characters. Um,but four minutes

Alex Ferrari 4:06
Nice right and then so so do you just go on for a few days and that's it. How long were you there?

Carlos Moreno Jr. 4:12
A couple days a couple days. You know, it's a couple days and it's you act like a like an eight year old or a 10 year old so it's not really work. You just go out there and have fun

Alex Ferrari 4:21
And you recorded at Pixar?

Carlos Moreno Jr. 4:22
No, we recorded at Warner Brothers.

Alex Ferrari 4:25
Okay, so nice and the director was there with you and did you what do you what was your experience when you first started as a Latino?

Carlos Moreno Jr. 4:33
I cried man, I cried I saw my family there. I saw myself in there. I mean I play a little bit of guitar makes me want to go and pick up a guitar again. It's it's, it's it has that magical tone that universal theme that I think that's why people are really resonating with it. Which is family and love basically

Alex Ferrari 4:54
Family and love and it's a very very powerful from argueably one of my favorite Pixar movies of All time

Carlos Moreno Jr. 5:00
Thank you

Alex Ferrari 5:00
Really, really was good. Now do you do a lot of animation you like to do voiceovers?

Carlos Moreno Jr. 5:04
Um, I've done two other ones. But it's still kind of new for me. It was happy feet 2. That was fun get to play a little penguin. And then there was another one it's Legoland the movie that most of those responses to playing Lego lead a lot of little Legos that die in you know, have fun, because you have to make all these little voices. But there's nothing like, like, just being right there present and then you just, you know, commit whatever it is you just got to commit.

Alex Ferrari 5:38
And when when you got the call from assuming your agent say hey, you know, you're gonna be in a Pixar movie.

Carlos Moreno Jr. 5:42
I didn't know how to react. I was like what Disney because I used to work for Disney a long, long time ago doing that. So I was a tester test video games now now. Yeah, went away. It says yes. 97-98. So another good job if you can get it. Yeah, yeah, we stay as you sit down a lot. And it's not as glamorous as they think never been pigs. It kind of goes through the night because it's like full circle nine you went once you work with the mouse. And Mickey Mouse, the mouse.

Alex Ferrari 6:11
Yeah, I went to school in Orlando where the mouse was very present at all times. So talk about your new short, the new short film you did was, which is a name again.

Carlos Moreno Jr. 6:20
It's called panacea.

Alex Ferrari 6:21
So tell me a little bit about that. First of all, I heard there was a unique story of how it was even produced.

Carlos Moreno Jr. 6:25
Yes. Um, it's a short film is 20 minutes long. I'm Kyle. You're my buddy. We were working on a project. And we were sitting down and then I get a phone call. And he's like, Hey, he's my dp say, Hey, I have I have access to 20 Alexa, that's no, you're not going to say no to that. So. So I went like so what do you want me to do? He goes, can you shoot something like super fast and want it within a week? So that was a gift that they gave us? And then I just call Kyle? here next? Yeah, no. And let's see here, let's just write this thing. It turned out to be seven days. We had the Alexa on Friday was four or five days. And then Monday, when they return, it was another four or five days. So just that alone gave us the ability to rehearse a little bit. So we rehearsed the crap. We rehearsed a lot out of it, you can say crap. It's okay. But my other actors, Mike really didn't have that much time with them. It was just okay, we're all gonna get together, we're gonna rehearse for a couple of hours. And then let's just be I did give him the permission to just be present and not to shy away from from what the theme is. And it ended up being something I mean, it's quite special. I as I remember, I was editing. And I think it was a few hours later, or eight hours later, I would say, I started looking at it. And I started to cry. Because I saw my aunt in there. I saw my grandfather. Tell us a little about it. Yeah, it's it panacea. It's about dying with dignity. Every so often that that comes up in films, and it comes out and people news. So because of my aunt, that she went through something similar. When she passed, I will look in your eyes. All I could do is just hold her hand. And she was like, help me. Yeah. So it's very painful. But it's quite, it's quite beautiful at the same time. So we try to put a lot of humor into this. So it's not so heavy. And I think that's how people are resonating because they see themselves in this character. Or, you know, what we're going through with with this with this guy.

Alex Ferrari 8:41
And what did you think when he called us like we haven't Alexa?

Kyle Devereaux. 8:45
Well, I was sitting next to him. When I got the call. We were working on something. Sure. And you don't know Carlos, like, I don't know, Carlos. Carlos gets up. He's like, what are we gonna do? Come down, we'll figure this out. We'll come up with something to just, you know, sit on it. Don't worry too much about it. So we finished what we were doing at the house. And then the next day he called me He's like, you know, I watched this episode of vice. And I think I have some videos. We can, you know, something hit home with him. And he told me the whole story. I ended up watching the episode myself. And you know, we end up meeting up putting together a script that just went from there.

Alex Ferrari 9:24
And now there's an app that's involved.

Carlos Moreno Jr. 9:26
Yes. Sure. So once I mean, no, bro panacea. I have a friend of mine. His name is mo Ramirez. So Matt, Mel had talked to me about this idea, this app, which is called the legacy app. And it's basically videos, messages that you have that you can record yourself, and then whenever you want, you can send those messages long after you passed. So they're quite something you know, they're special areas. Because you know, the first thing when we leave or someone leaves us, what do you do? You go to the phone and you look through the pictures and you want to go, you want to get as much information. So he told me about this. And I said, Hey, Mel, um, what is it now? I say, hey, Mel, can I use the app so that we could, you know, put it in this film? I think it's, it'll kind of round everything up. And then this kid right over here, right after we shot he goes, dude, we should let record it. And we should record me talking to my loved ones and leaving these messages, because I'm no longer there. So the messages, I think one of them was my 50th birthday, my character. So it's, you know, 3020 years from now? Yes. So, um, so it kind of came together. So perfect. And it's just, it's just the beauty of it. So you, you you feel for this character, because it's only 22 minutes, but I, we, we get you in 22 minutes, you feel in 22 minutes, you laugh and 22 minutes, and then legacy helped help with the production and the legacy. Once I showed him what I had, excuse me, immediately, I got a call. It's like, we would like to help you know, push it out there to festivals, I think people need to see this film. And I felt very, very blessed. And I told Kyle is like, here we go. We're going to festivals with this. And it's been, it's been really, really great to get the feedback of the people are watching this. I've had held a woman in my arms crying like for like 45 seconds, just tearing and saying how? how special this one and how beautiful and how meaningful it is. And on a filmmaking and business side. I mean, you basically you're using your film as a content marketing, but do not be preachy about it? No, no, that's the best. That is the best kind of that is the best kind of marketing. You can do. Yes, because it hits an emotional cue. Yes, with the audience, and you're not being preachy or anything. Exactly. And it's really interesting how Coco has that theme, you know, then I have this panacea. No, no, no, I'm going What is going on? So I think the universe is that you're heading in the right path, Carlos. And hopefully you guys learn. So we're super excited to be here. I couldn't ask any more?

Alex Ferrari 12:18
Yeah, dude, I feel you feel I feel you, man. Now, I want to ask you one last question. If you had, if you were to give one piece of advice to filmmakers, just starting out in the business, what would it be?

Carlos Moreno Jr. 12:30
Don't give up. Try. Keep going at it. Have your voice. Your important.

Kyle Devereaux. 12:40
Honestly, it's you know, if you have that in your mind, you want to do it just just start. Just go. And don't be afraid to make mistakes along the way. Because honestly, starting is just is probably the hardest part. And just, you know, keep going and learn from your mistakes. And

Carlos Moreno Jr. 12:59
And the support is very important.

Kyle Devereaux. 13:01
Exactly.

Carlos Moreno Jr. 13:02
We wouldn't be here without support legacy app. And friends and families. I mean, it's it's quite easy to do. So I'm here. We're here to stay. We're here to do more.

Alex Ferrari 13:12
Yeah. And help as many people as you can. Give is as much as you can

Carlos Moreno Jr. 13:17
The more you give the more you get without even wanting be of service or your service.

Alex Ferrari 13:22
Thank you guys. Thank you so much for being on the show. Man.

Carlos Moreno Jr. 13:25
Thank you so much.

Alex Ferrari 13:26
Pleasure, guys.

Carlos Moreno Jr. 13:27
We'll keep we'll see you soon.

Alex Ferrari 13:28
Absolutely. Thanks. I told you this was a kind of emotional one without question. Karl's just doing some amazing stuff, and I definitely advise you guys to check out his short. And again, if you've not seen Coco, please do yourself a favor and watch an amazing story told so, so beautifully. It is probably one of Pixar his best films. If you're interested in getting links to anything we talked about. In this episode, head over to the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com/219. I got a bunch more stuff coming guys. Thank you for your patience. You will get a new episode next week. But you've got a throwback tomorrow. And hopefully in March I will go back to my regular scheduled programming of two new episodes a week. But it is a bit nutty. And you will understand why soon enough. So as always keep that also going keep that dream alive and I'll talk to you soon.

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