IFH 246: Directing Color on Set with Ollie Kenchington

Welcome to the indie film hustle  podcast episode number 46 mere color can speak to the soul in a thousand different ways. Oscar Wilde broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It’s the indie film hustle podcast where we showed you how to survive and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film.

And here’s your host Alex Ferrari welcome Hustler’s to another episode of the podcast. I am your humble host Alex Ferrari. Today’s episode is brought to you by Black Box black box is a new platform and community. That is all about Financial Freedom for filmmakers. Like you if you join block box, you will be transformed from being a worker to being a maker of your own content and you’ll be making steady passive income from the global market Black Box currently allows you to upload your stock footage once get it too many Global agencies and then allows you to share that passive income stream with your collaborators, whether you want to submit old footage that’s been sitting around in your hard drives or create brand new content black box is for you.

It’s really quite revolutionary with black. Fox filmmakers can concentrate on making great content while block box takes care of all the business BS just visit w-w-w color is by far one of the most important elements in the visual frame when you are filmmaking, you know, what would carry be without those bright ridiculous Reds.

Or Uh Oh Brother Where Art Thou and the color palettes that deacons used in that film for the Coen Brothers color is so powerful and it can show emotions and and tell stories without even saying a single word color is really overlooked and I’m not just talkin about color. On uh in color creating but also on set in production design in wardrobe those movies that really do the full monty.

If you will and go all out. You can tell I mean you look at the Matrix and look at the color palettes, they used on that or and look at the color palettes use that dark night. Any Christopher Nolan movie any David Fincher film any Kubrick film for god sakes, um, they use color to the utmost and it is so so powerful.

Today’s guest is Ali Kensington, and he is um, a colorist a filmmaker and an editor and he is kind of the color Master. He created a new course called directing color where he breaks down how to use color but not only in post but onset how to think. About color how to have a color first approach when shooting your films in now bat just by doing that will set your films apart from everybody else’s so please enjoy my conversation with Ali Kenshin.

I like to welcome the show Tim and thank you so much for taking the time out and jumping on the podcast. It’s my absolute pleasure Alex. It’s lovely to speak to you. And you know, this is a topic, you know that we have not covered on the show before and it is so important and it’s so powerful and I know a lot of independent filmmakers just don’t understand color, uh, not only the color grading process but specifically the theory behind color.

So I’m really looking forward to jumping into it with you. Yeah, lovely fantastic. I could talk all day about this so go for it. Okay. So how did you first get into the business? Um color or just generally film. Do you as a filmmaker? Yes is a filmmaker. So, um, I studied. Uh, well if I go way way back which really does kind of say the seeds for I am right now, um, I studied uh, um, astronomy art and photography at College which is an unusual mix.

Um, and I really didn’t know why I was studying that combination, of course his back then. Don’t you be much later on that uh, perhaps I quite enjoyed science and art and that’s kind of ultimately what led me into coloring and and it seems to me one of the uh, the the best kind of disciplines for marrying Art and Science and the technical with the creative and uh, I had picked up as I say still cameras first of all, but really quite quickly moved into video.

Um, I was only doing some Stills for a couple years before I got hold. A big s-vhs um big sure, uh top-of-the-line that then Jess was the shit. Oh, yeah, man. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And um, I uh, I was working with that for a little while and um, this was this so I started my degree in uh, mm, so.

My degree was a kind of a mixed. It was actually an art degree, but it was very open. So I basically off of my own volition, um made it focused on photography and film and my my final show was a mixture of the two. Um, and I I really kind of enjoyed flitting between the two and obviously it’s such a cross discipline.

But with what film opened up for me was, um the ability to obviously tell that narrative to actually string that story out. Um, You know, you know a linear fashion and as it really was then linear tape to tape. Um, but but we were I was sort of doing it at the time where the cusp of mini DV was just starting to get in trenched and I remember one day turning up and the VHS camera was sort of still in the cupboard and in its place was this cannon xm1.

Um, yes, my University couldn’t afford an Excel one. I was about to say yeah much to my annoyance. It was only an art school after all but had an accept. Um and uh, yeah, I think the camera itself didn’t really excite me at the time. I’ve got more excited about cameras in more recent years. Um, but at the time what excited me was the fact that I could um, take that footage straight into you know, the the PowerMax that we were using back then um and be editing in, you know, only real time, you know coming coming ingesting that and.

And starting to edit it digitally on the computer straight away. Um that will what felt like straight away anyway, um was uh, what opened up the floodgates for me and um lecture of mine managed to get me a hooky copy of Final Cut Pro. I think it was version 2 actually, it wasn’t version 2 had just come out and um, That was that so it’s kind of all these things were happening simultaneously and that was the kind of opening of the post door for me.

Um, I then used all of my student loan to buy an iMac DV snow. Uh, which was oh yeah, um had firewire on it. That was that hundred. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I’m like, what do you need an iMac and uh and a DV capable camera and and I was away so I done spent I literally just. Hit away for the next three years of my degree just teaching myself how to edit the Final Cut Pro and making all kinds of weird.

I’ve still got a lot of them and every now and again I watch them just to make myself chuckle but some some very odd art films we all we all have a man we all have I yeah, yeah. Oh my god, um days would classic and uh, Yeah, but you know, it kind of all came from that there was a bit of a hiccup along the way because um, I needed money quickly realize that you know, making art films was was never ever gonna make me a single penny.

Um, so uh, I fell into a job, uh working for Apple, um, literally straight after I graduated. Yeah. Yeah, and it wasn’t. At the time it seems odd now, but at the time Apple didn’t really exist in the UK in a kind of a bricks-and-mortar sense. They they rely upon this massive network of third-party what they call Apple premium recent us, which I think they have in the states as well.

Sure. Sure. They still kind of exists in this country. Although they’ve been kind of reduced in number by the fact that office Lee Apple now have these massive Apple Stores everywhere. But yeah, the tiny little apple premium reseller in the west-southwest of the UK. Some they really like the fact that I knew Final Cut Pro and the pro video apps and um, I worked with them for about three years and uh supported a lot of post houses in the local area with setting up, you know exons and getting the Pro apps system installed.

Um, you’re getting that you’re getting that hard. I love it. I I know we were talking about this before you start recording but we uh, you know, we come from a period of time with this. It seems crazy. Now people even people can have like who in the early 20s like an apple were tiny and like no no.

No, you don’t understand. Yeah in the early 2000s. This company was basically dead. It was bad. It was almost almost back. Absolutely. I remember I remember I remember seven dollars a share. For for Apple. Yeah, I remember seven dollars. Of course not why in God’s green earth. Yeah now that would be a whole different story.

Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Now, when did you get into color grading where you you found a home in color grading as well or added it to your tools are Your Arsenal of things that you can do. Well, the first time that I actually got hold of some kind of grading software and and it became accessible to me as a mere human being.

Yes when brought out color. Yeah, of course, so so that that was the first kind of Hands-On but actually the first time that I decided that I wanted to be a colorist was actually a couple of years were quite a few years before that. Um, I was watching the bonus DVD of The Fellowship of the Ring.

Um, they had a little. Some there, um, which is only a short little bit with Peter Doyle, um talkin to him about how he color graded the film and and I was watching at like what color grading I literally had, uh, no idea never heard of it. Um, I’d never um kind of contemplated that there was even such a need, you know, it’s really the stuff came out the camera looking like this, you know, and then watching it and I remember it so vividly there’s this bit where he you hear him in.

Talkin about them grading legless in the mines of Moria and we see legless up on I think it’s on like one of the graves, you know, one of the tombs and he jumps off and they’re grading is eyes to make them look more kind of blue because he’s an elf and they’re kind of magical. So yeah, and I’m like, oh that’s amazing and then he hits the track button and it tracks his eyeballs and like a lot of people even today, you know, when they see demonstrations of tracking in my mind was.

Was absolutely blown. Um, I to the point where I uh, I kind of stopped Peter online and I managed to find an email address for him and I sent me an email saying, uh, I just want to be a colorist now since I watched this, you know, how do I become a colorist and the guy wrote back to him? It’s like well, we’re going to be uh, grading Return of the King soon.

Why don’t you be my assistant? Oh, that’s amazing. This this story is I’ve told the story several times over the years and it never gets any less painful. So I I’m like, of course. Yes, that’s amazing. But he’s a news but he’s a New Zealand, right? He said he’s gonna say he’s like, yeah. Yeah, we’re coming up and I’m like, well, I’m in my last year of my degree and you know, I’ve got my degree she’s like well as call that battle line up really well with the timings.

I was like, oh my God, this is perfect. Uh, and it got it got kind of a couple months down the line in his emails were becoming increasingly, uh, kind of agitated like, you know, if you sorted out accommodation yet and we’ve got to book flights, you know, I was like dude chill out, you know, this is we got months until I finished my degree and here’s what you talkin about surely don’t you finish in December like we do in New Zealand?

Uh, no Academic Year in June and we were like talkin across purposes for months and and he’s like he will be finished in June. You’ve either got a. Just forget your degree and come over or you know, we’re just gonna this isn’t going to happen. And uh, I I do I do please don’t say it. Don’t say it.

Don’t know what’s going o, oh my God, I decided to finish my let me just remind you my art degree. It’s not like I was training to be a doctor you were like you were right before you got to to the last. Oh my God. Yeah. No have anyone around the slap you there’s no one. No one. No one. I honestly no one around me had any idea.

I was literally the only person that I knew that was even knew that color grading existed who Peter Dora was so so what happened when you told Peter Doyle? Yes. Thanks for the assistant job, but I’m gonna finish my art. Instead. Yeah, yeah buddy. Um, oh by the way the oscar-winning. Third part of The Lord of the Rings trilogy.

Yeah, um this stuff gets worse, by the way. I just warn you so I said, uh, I’m gonna choose to sync my degree in he bless him. He was really supportive. He’s like, I totally get it. Um, I think maybe he mistakenly thought I was doing a worthwhile degree, but he is I get it, you know finish his studies, you know, maybe we can work on something in the future anyway fast forward a year and I get this email out of the blue now, as I said, I wasn’t joking when I said fell straight into a job with Apple after I.

It was literally two weeks after my graduation ceremony. I’m now working for apple and about six months further down the line. I think I’ve already been promoted. Once that it was it was such a massive chain point in time where Applewood changing and expanding so quickly it was you know, I was absolutely caught up in it.

Anyway, I get this email at the Blue from him saying, uh, Holly I’m coming to the UK. This is perfect. I still need an assistant. I ended up not having one on Return of the King. I definitely need one now. I’ve got a big big project coming up in. Uh, yeah. Will you join me now? I’m just I’m sorry.

It’s just I still painful. It’s so painful. This is lightning striking twice in the absolute never purest sense of the never happen. As if the first time saying there wasn’t bad enough. Um, this was ten times worse because by this point I’m you know, whatever. I 21 22. I’m a little bit arrogant now because I’ve got a pretty damn good job working for Apple.

I’ll have you know, I’ve are you 21 2010 I said I said when you remember saying I don’t know I got this i got this really good job, you know, um, and I didn’t really want to move to London. Um, I kind of bit of a country bumpkin I live in the sort of in the countryside in the southwest of the UK. I don’t know if I want to move to London.

Um, I mean what film is it which is like a classic, you know, if you need to know the film then then just go away and he would just write back again. Really really nice guy. He was just like I’ll let you know if you sounds like your asset. Yeah, don’t worry about it. If if you need to kind of know what the film is.

It’s probably not a good fit for you and. You know, don’t worry about it best of luck. And I was so arrogant. Actually I just like yeah, okay, and I literally didn’t think about it again the number of years until I. And tonight I one day. I don’t know why I think I was listening to a podcast and he came on and he was talkin about uh, it is then I career twice.

Yeah, it was it wasn’t thankfully but he did make mention his assistant a couple of time who must have been the person he ultimately ended up hiring anyway, and it only dawned on me at that point that what he the film he was talkin about was the Prisoner of Azkaban and of course he went on to do all of the Harry Potter films after that, um and countless other films that we could.

All day and so I turned down the Return of the King and and most the vast majority of the Harry Potter films. Um, and and that brings us to today. Well, um, and that’s the end of it and that’s the end of the show guys. Thank you. Okay, I wouldn’t blame you for not speaking to me. Now, you know what but look, I always am a big fan.

I’m a big believer that things are supposed to happen the way they’re supposed to happen and you are where you’re supposed to be as beautiful as though. Opportunities might have been um, it would be the equivalent of Steven Spielberg calling me up and saying I need an assistant to come and Shadow me on a film I’m doing and I say, you know what?

I’m I’m just gonna stay here in Orlando and finish my degree. Yeah film instead of going with you master Spielberg. Uh, it’s the equivalent. It’s the equivalent of something like that. Uh twice. Yeah. Yeah exactly twice a twice thing. The twice thing is what really gets me because the first one I could I could say, you know what it could be exactly fine.

I should start telling the story and leaving out the second part because enough paint the first ones. But yeah, there’s some part of you like, you know, what there’s a little bit of honor and trying to finish up what you start I get all that. Yeah, but you’re working at guys you carry on with that story and it’s like this guy’s a dick and you know, but I think what helps you is that.

Uh, it wasn’t like it’s someone that it’s it’s in the behind the scenes. It’s like, you know, it’s a guy who people don’t know off the street, you know, you know what they know. Yeah. I mean anyone who knows though. I went to um, uh to the Harry Potter the Warner Brothers Studio tour for Harry Potter.

Yeah leaves and just outside London. Oh, yeah. Well, there’s one here in La yeah. Yeah, and uh, I think I was the first um, and the home of Harry Potter. Um, uh, yeah, I went there with my wife and my eldest child a few is only a few months ago actually and um the very last part after you’ve done the whole tour and it’s blown you’ve Blown Away by the very last room you come to um, everyone just walks through it and just keeps going but I stopped and I saw this woman sat there and I said, what’s this room?

What’s this the whole room was? With um boxes and they’re meant to be one boxes a bit like you’re inside ollivanders and there’s all these different ones and they all have names on it. She said, oh, it’s every single person over the years. I had anything to do with the Harry Potter franchise cast crew.

Everyone has a one box with their name on it in this room. And um, yeah because it’s only like a couple of inches by an inch, you know these boxes of quite small that there’s only a relatively small room and. So many people just streaming through and literally you’re like, oh, I’m at the end. You can see the exit and off they go and I’m like, oh, so I start looking at all of them.

And uh, and I know I walked after do you know where Peter would be in she’s like, yeah and she got out this massive binder. She’s at right. Um, anyway, eventually finds him and points to his box and I just for a minute I was like in an alternate universe. Yes in this room is a one box with my name on it.

Yes. Yeah, uh, and I’m not in that Universe. Oh well, um, but anyway, I think we’ve beaten that horse to death. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, let’s move we’ve all made mistakes. Let’s move on. So so, um, so you got into color and you created this amazing course called directing color, which is one of the reasons why I want to have you on um, and to kind of dig into.

Color and how humans deal with color? Well, first of all, how do human beings perceive color in the first place? Well, there’s kind of two sides to it. There’s the biological side of it. So literally, how do we does the human visual system work? How do we see color and and what are the differences between people and what other similarities um, but then there’s also the kind of cultural side of it and what um, you know, what we in our various societies have come to accept as different meanings associated with the different colors.

Um, One of the things that the thing that interests interests me most is which I discuss in the course is things like what how we’ve evolved to pay less attention to certain colors and more attention to other colors and how that effects. Our ability to kind of within if you see these colors within a scene or a photograph or a painting or whatever.

It might be. Um how that can cause uh a distancing in some areas and things coming forward in others and essentially a way of creating depth just simply by having certain colors in the image and that that for me I think is fascinating and we talked in the course about. Um how we’ve grown to become quite ignorant and to Blue for example, because from an evolutionary point of view, there’s absolutely no benefit in us being particularly particularly receptive to different shades of blue.

The sky is is kind of. Almost becomes background noise. It’s there all the time. Um, we can’t you know, we can’t procreate with the sky over, you know, some people may have tried something because I’m crazy people, um, the you know, and it’s also not a threat to us. Um, so those you know, those those things can you eat yet?

Is it going to eat me? Can I procreate in it with it? That’s the kind of stuff that drives and drives Evolution and the sky just doesn’t pay apart into that. It’s also the rarest color in nature. There’s very few animals. Um vegetables. Exactly. So are the cones in our eyes that are responsible for being receptive to different frequencies of the spectrum.

The ones that are responsible for looking at Blues. There’s only one percent of them. So 99% of our vision vision is looking at everything other than blue. Um, and so that’s why that’s why cool colors received and we they don’t physically receive they of course, they’re in our perception. We’re just ignoring them so they become less important to us.

Um, And if you look at the other side of that which is well what kind of come forward it’s these warm colors these oranges these Reds all based around Flesh Blood things that from an evolutionary point of view, very important that we can distinguish and the things that we can. Um, you know kind of our warnings to us or you know, we’re a social animal being able to kind of spot other people and interact with other people and dangers of you know, your blood and when you see it that they all have these uh these effects on us and you know to the point where in some people that that mechanism is a bit over keyed and you know, my grandma used to faint if she ever saw blood and it’s actually quite a common thing.

You know, that’s actually that same mechanism just gone a bit. Hey, um, that’s that’s how ingrained in it. It is that these things kind of can produce emotional responses in us and physical response as well like high blood pressure and elevated heart rate when we see Reds. It’s a really interesting phenomenon.

Yes, it’s a how do colors different colors affect different emotions because I know obviously if you walk into a red room, it’s a very different feeling than if you walk into. A pink room or a green room or a yellow room. Um, you have a different emotional attachment. So and I know there is some uh, there is some in theory color theory like will read is this in green means that but it’s also cultural as well.

It doesn’t go across the yeah, so can you talk a little bit? Yeah, well register really good example because of course in China red means so uh different things to what it means in Western culture. And um, so yeah, I think culture plays a massive part of that but not just not just societal culture but also the culture around how we consume entertainment.

So, you know, the Which is far more kind of international but you know going to the cinema watching TV, there’s a there’s a visual language that’s established over, you know course of 100 years, which. Is a language that we’re all fluent in and it’s a language that a lot of people they can’t articulate that they are fluent in that language, but it’s there and and that’s always been a an interesting subject for me because and also.

Dangerous subject because of course when you hear and feel making um mistakes are a often forgiving very easily by your viewer because they are just so accustomed to watching high quality content and and those established kind of visual cues and visual language that’s there. And this is why uh, you know people who don’t go to film school have bit more of a harder time because there’s you can be a very intuitive shooter you can you can have a natural eye for composition.

But there are things that are Film School teach you about visual language and about, you know, how framing someone a certain way or using a certain kind of focal length of lens can affect people’s perception of intention or you know, if there’s kind of a malice or a, you know, an opportunity or a threat or whatever it might be within a scene and that that’s the kind of stuff that you know, I didn’t go to film school.

That’s the kind of stuff that I’ve had to, you know, slowly over the last kind of. 20 years kind of get my head around and and and you know take a longer than it would have done if I had the opportunity to go to a film score, but it’s there and it’s a language that we’re all fluent in but you have to kind of tap into it and unlock it, you know to kind of it’s almost like a repressed memory.

You got to you got to kind of tap into that and pull it out and get all right. That’s why this feels a certain way and colors definitely part of. There’s um, there’s some I was I used to work for when I first started out with an old old time director, um who had been doing it for years and he told me something about color.

I never forgotten to goes if you want your greens to Pop the Shot before make it red because the red will stay in your eye when it jumps to the green and enhance the green in a way and I thought that was fascinating. Can you can you kind of delve into that a little bit? Yes, so it’s basically it’s fatigue.

So you can fatigue your cones The receptors in your eyes that are absorbing these these frequencies, um, if if they are over stimulated or or um, if you’re looking at certain color for too long, they become fatigued and they essentially weaken and when they weaken they when you sort of look at something else then that frequency is lessened and and it’s I mean one of the basic tenants of color theory.

Jeff complementary colors and what’s its opposite a color on the color wheel is its complementary color? So for example, this often happens in the summary of your sunbathing or you know at the Garden and you’ve got your eyes closed, um, there’s so much of a particular wavelength of light that’s filtering now through your um through your eyelids.

So that’s tinting everything that like like read that when you then open your eyes everything looks really green. Um, and it’s the same thing you’re fatiguing the red sensor receptors in your eyes or the Combs that are looking at that frequency. And then um, when you then open up we’ll look at something else.

You’re then uh left with that essentially a week Channel which makes everything else look stronger. It’s not that everything else is become stronger. It’s that you’ve. Lessons the response to a certain frequency which makes everything else look stronger. So red and green yellow and blue um, and it really can work against you when you’re kind of grading and in fact, this happened to me recently with right where there was, um, a series of shots.

And uh with an interview and absolutely graded, um skin tones look perfect. But the I think it was like the third or fourth time you cut back to this interview. The preceding shot was um foliage. It was sunlight coming through some leaves and it was on screen for maybe five six seconds. And then when you look at the end the interview immediately afterwards, it looks like they’re um, skin is all over the place and it looks like the colorist has done a terrible job here.

But if you look at those interviews shots in arson. And they look absolutely fine. And so you end up having to color grade that last interview shot actually differently and essentially deliberately wrong to counteract the sensation of someone having that green fatigue of their eyes, when they then cut from that previous shot to the next shot.

So it has massive implications on how people perceive your films and a colorist needs to know this stuff because they need to they need to kind of hopefully produce something that’s consistent all the way through. Continuous contrast is another factor of this and that that uh is the phenomenon where surrounding colors around a particular color will alter the way that it looks um, and again, that’s something that you have to be really conscious of particularly with interviews with skin tones.

You know, what colors are you using as your backdrop? What colors are in the scene with your um with your talent because they could be making skin tones look wrong when they’re not or they could be making. Um, you know bad contains look right, which is another thing of course, right? You know, yeah, basically our eyes are constantly screwing us and um, the counter is needs to understand the human visual system and all of these Optical effects these tricks that our brains are playing on us and um, and and this is why I said earlier, I love the the meeting of kind of science and art and so technology and creativity with caring for me.

It’s it takes both those boxes and people tend to be left hemisphere dominated kind of creative people or right hemisphere dominated. So technical or organizational people and it’s relatively rare to find people who are both and they hop back and forth between those two kind of parts of their brain very happily.

But for whatever reason I am one of those people and I do really like being able to play off the deep technical understanding of color and human biology and you know how cameras work but also then the creative kind of implications and how. That’s woven into the creative art of filmmaking. Now, how should a director uh use or know about color when designing his or her shots in a film because it’s something really I’ve seen some directors do it really well and some not so much.

Yeah, I guess um detectives this is that sometimes you can come away with conversations and it’s one of the fears with directing color was. But people might come away from it thinking that um everything I’ve ever made is wrong because I never thought about this this this and this and I guess this is like, you know, this is like a layer of varnish on the top, you know, it’s that the the boat if you like or the the chair or whatever underneath could be just a stable and just a sturdy and just as well crafted, um without that extra layer of lacquer, but you know, is it going to win prizes is is it going to be one that someone picks over something else?

And I think that’s that’s. The thing is all of these techniques are things that are just kind of that honing it and honing it and refining it and it’s just an extra layer of glass that will help make your product your film Stand Out above others and one of the things that people can do is is obviously focus on lighting other things people can do is focus on.

Obviously, you know wardrobe or art direction or there’s various different parts of a film that one can kind of put energies and resources into thinking that this is what will elevate my film but the truth of it is that the things that we’re not and the things that people talk about for years to come and smash box office records are the films that do all of those things, you know, every single element of that an indirect and kind of I talk about whiplash.

And I think whiplashes a is a fantastic example of a film where every single of aspect of filmmaking is is is brought together and thought about and you end up with this result on screen. That’s so captivating here the camera movement the lighting or in the case of what I’m really interested in the color and the fact that certain colors are used to kind of signify emotions within the within the can the main character without you having to say it, you know without having.

Spoon feed the audience. So this is where it gets really exciting for directors. I think because it’s an additional weapon in their storytelling Arsenal. Well, yeah, it’s kind of like the olden days which was that that language you were talkin about that’s been established for over 120 years, which is the black guy the black.

Um, the guy the bad guy wears black. And the good guy were white and that was in the silent days. That’s the way it was and it was established that way and then if you know that you can play on that. We’re then the black the the bad guy could wear white and the good guy could wear black and you see that constantly going back and forth and you can start playing with it once you understand it and it’s extremely powerful.

It’s extremely extreme. I think people think that it isn’t because it’s you know, it’s a kind of a subconscious thing. It’s something that you’re not like, you know, even as a colorist, I I don’t I didn’t go and see Whiplash the first time and come out thinking really interesting that they’d put that character in Green Top that they put the dads character in it.

It’s only once you kind of go back and digestion and reanalyze these things at you and often when you see stills of them in isolation that you think oh shit. Yeah, they’re doing this and they’re doing that. I think that doesn’t. Mean, it’s less valuable just because it’s subconscious. It means it’s more powerful.

I think one of the very first sentences that you hear me say in in the directing color. Um series is 70% of all communication is nonverbal and that’s really really important the fact that you’re not hearing it or not being spoon-fed. It doesn’t mean that it’s less valuable. It means it’s more valuable because we are.

More accustomed to those subconscious cues than we are verbal and and obvious so they are they should make up, you know, at least 70% of your film. That should make up a big chunk of how you’re communicating. You shouldn’t feel like it’s not worthwhile because it’s not in the script or it’s not, you know, obviously up in your face in the scene.

If you look at a movie that we all have seen Star Wars. You know, yeah, Darth Vader is in Black, you know, if Darth Vader was wearing pink completely different energy saving that version. Yes, I have actually have been a few Comic Cons myself. Um, but then you’ve got Luke who’s wearing white you’ve got Han Solo who’s wearing black and white because he’s a good guy and a bad guy.

You’ve got ob one who’s wearing brown, which is an earthy color which signifies um wisdom and then you got. Uh, Yoda who’s green, which they were the size knowledge and wisdom as well. If I’m not mistaken that Earthly color and those are kind of certain accused that were associated with those colors, correct?

Yeah, well particularly greens an interesting one because yes, it does. Um, certainly if you look over a very broad kind of aggregate, you know, uh kind of cultural perceptions of green they green has obviously all kinds of connections to do with the natural world do with um Serenity to do with peace.

Um, and and, you know kind of like Sprites and. You know, there’s loads of different kind of um, like Easter for example, obviously Christianity kind of bent that towards its own purposes, but celebrations of spring and bringing green things into your home and you know, those things have gone on for Millennia and there’s all kinds of associations positive associations with green but at the same time, um, just because.

Of um, I don’t know what it is. I mean mainly because of skin tones. I think green is something that you don’t often see, um as a color choice in many films because it because it crashes so terribly with skin tones and become. Green is also looks a little bit kind of uh, um, I don’t know kind of can very easily Veer from kind of fresh spring green to a kind of a horrible kind of Muddy green.

That just doesn’t look good on you green green. Yeah, exactly. And in fact again, you know talkin of whiplash in the very last episode of the directing color series, I break down Whiplash and green comes up because it’s used um quite heavily in scenes where um marsteller that. Main guy in the film The his character is the they want to show that his character is being kind of assaulted by these kind of outside pressures and there’s a really good scene at the beginning where he’s walking back to his um apartment and as he’s walking through the kind of communal areas as lots of loud noises and there’s lots of kind of people and not really doing anything wrong, but clearly he’s he doesn’t like this it kind of is ruining his Focus as it were.

Um, and the the whole scenes of vivid green and they’re letting those colors leach into a skin tones and it’s used really effectively in that film to show toxicity and danger and um, you know, this this kind of sickness that which is which in that film is mainly kind of like a mentor synchronous more man.

Um, yeah and and the fact that he does kind of have a breakdown. Yeah and ends up hurting himself to try and win the approval of his teacher and you know, and they but then what they do is they placed that exact same green in the wardrobe of the dad and also the guy who’s initially in the band he has to play better than in order to kind of win his place in the band.

And so they both where exactly the same color green shirt in that film so green can be used actually and is often used these days is a kind of a. A bit of a sick kind of color and a bit of a a toxic kind of feel to it, which is a mental illness, which is an interesting kind of modern slant on green.

Well, like institutional like in a you know, and I mentally mental insane. Asylum. You’re going to see green somewhere. Yeah. In fact interesting. I’m just literally this morning. I’ve just delivered um a project for the Natural History Museum in London who I am do a lot of work for and I was color grading a.

A little piece that they’ve just done and they’ve got to show up at the moment called Venom and it’s just it’s all about different snakes from around the world and how and how you know Venom is used in medicines in certain parts of the world and all kinds of stuff and there’s this little film and I was just grading it for them and I notice they sent an offline reference that the editor just don’t know sort of like grade on for me to see the kind of direction that they were heading in but essentially grading it from scratch, but just referencing the offline, but notice that when.

They cut to the b-roll of snake and the snakes kind of shooting Venom or in case you know English do they call them aquariums the snakes live in their zooms here. They’re in zoos. Yeah, but in the Natural History Museum, they have they have like them in glass sided. Yeah, I forgot. Well, we call them like, I don’t even want to hear but yeah, I know like venomous pit.

I don’t know. Yeah, whatever whatever the hell it is. Um, and I noticed that the the editor pushed quite a bit of green in two. Shots and I was like, okay. I kind of see where they are going with this but they’d also pushed it into the interviews and clearly and I have you know, after having having a a chat with them I could see where they were going on to the whole pieces about Venom.

They wanted to kind of feel like there’s kind of like dangerous thing. They’ve got these kind of slow motion shots on the Phantom Flex of snakes shooting out of their fangs, but it just felt so wrong with the with the interview so ended up pulling it out of all of the interviews and just pushing it into specific scenes.

Box of beer where it kind of worked and you know, it’s just a little gentle tint of green and actually they dialed it back quite a bit. I said to them that you don’t need to force feed it to people you don’t need to kind of look. Like a comic book the way they’ve done it and you know, it’s just a subtle tint that you pick up on in the highlights and in the whites and it does the job, you know, it’s telling you that this is a kind of a dangerous sort of toxic substance that they’re dealing with now besides Whiplash, what are some other movies that really or the directors who really use color to great effect.

Oh, it’s um, well, I mean actually Peter Jackson is one of the ones that that I think is, uh, you know, does very clever things with color and color palettes. I always remember it. Um, sorry carry on no no. No, I hear I hear the colors is really good. But um, sorry good enough it. Let’s move on the damn.

It The Hobbit is really interesting. I really like, um, in fact. In The Hobbit films. Let’s just color palette that’s established which is pushed into the um, the kind of the Leaf color. So there’s a really I think in one of the trainer’s so a lot of people probably seen it. There’s a bit where um Frodo not Frodo, of course, it’s Bilbo wasn’t in that one.

Um, Bilbo climb to the top of a tree to see where they are there in the letter in a forest and they’re lost and he climbs the top of a tree and that scene, um where you see the whole of the canopy the top of. Canopy of trees in this big Forest. It’s so subtle, but the colors are just pushed into a a realm where which doesn’t mimic our reality.

It doesn’t mimic our world and um, it does a really amazing job of making you feel like you’re looking at a fantastical. Almost alien landscape and it’s so subtle. It’s just very slightly pushed into a, you know into an area into kind of magenta red sand kind of slightly more greens than you would expect and that you would see in normal trees on Earth.

It’s a really interesting use of color to kind of help with that sense of other worldliness, but with familiar objects, and I think that’s used really effectively and Peter Jackson. Um, I think in other films of his, you know, does some really interesting things with contrast and saturation. Um, I can’t remember who um The Name Escapes me right now, but I can’t remember who um directed in Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy.

That’s another film that I often reference. Um when I’m thinking about the use of color and it’s how effective it is at storytelling because that’s an interesting because it’s a thriller as a whodunit. Um, And it kind of comes back to what you’re saying earlier about, you know, if the body is always in black and the goodies always been white.

What if we play around with that and um Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy plays around with the idea of clarity and the idea of high contrast because that we have a measurable pleasure response when we see high contrast images, you can actually see, you know, the the readouts from if you have all those probes on your brain, there’s an increase in brain activity when we see high contrast images, we find the more attractive because.

Um, uh brain is finds it easier to tell if things are in or out of focus if they’re high contrast. Um, and of course contrast plays a big part in auto focus systems in camera, so that that edge contrast that detail that sharpness is is is pressure to watch. You know, you can see this evidence doing photography as well.

If you walk down any kind of Supermarket or any anywhere where they’re selling lots of magazines, you’ll see that all glossy covers. They’re all high contrast, you know, they’re doing everything they can to make those pleasing high contrast images and then you’ve got something like Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy wear what they want is for you to constantly feel like you don’t know what’s going on.

Um, it’s a it’s a thriller where it’s not until the very last scene that you’ve the reveal happens and. Most thread is kind of like to leave Clues they like to reward, you know, like doggy treats for the viewer. Although you know, that’s happened. You know, that’s a film where they do everything they can to make sure that doesn’t happen.

They don’t want you having any reason to suspect one person over another so you go through the whole film wondering is it Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy and one of the ways that they enforce that is by using making the whole thing incredibly low contrast is very gray in that film. Um, and the colors are very new to and it literally taps.

To a lack of clarity your the viewers never given the opportunity to have any Clarity on who may have been the perpetrator who may be this mole. And I think that’s a really interesting use of contrast. Um, I can’t remember the director’s name right now. But um, yeah listen, Great examples out there the the two movies that come to mind always is uh Emily, which was just stunningly done.

Um anything that was Anderson does because was under color and the Matrix with the Matrix look versus the real world look and I mean that look had never I never seen anything like the Matrix when it came out in 99 like there was just. And by the way ages so well, I mean you can watch them right now and it aged super well, um, but but that look, which is that technology and sickly like you’re not well like you’re not supposed to be here kind of as opposed to the real world, which is more vibrant and well-known that depends on if you’re in the that uh, Matrix to then you’re in that the um the Rave which was very color but like well, that’s what I was going to say.

I mean. You’re absolutely right and it and we’re aware those scenes change and there’s locations you can see the color developing with the plot. So as the film’s continue the the film it’s not a one-trick pony. They’re really thinking about how color represents different locations and different.

You know, how they want. So you’ve got lots of Browns and reds when they’re in, you know Zion and there’s those of tribal kind of music and you know music and color. These are all things that kind of helping drive that story for words. Have you ever seen the movie Speed Racer? Uh, no, I don’t think I have so it’s a brother same guys who directed The Matrix.

Yeah get it on Blu-ray if you can and because it is easily the most. Colorful film I’ve ever seen in my life and it is if you remember the cartoon, um, yeah, they basically just took the cartoon amped up all the color and saturation and did such a but it’s like I think the reason why it’s so and I love for you to watch and hear what you think of it.

I think the reason one of the reasons it didn’t do well because it’s actually a good movie. Um, if you know what you’re getting into but the colors are so. Vibrant and so in your face that I think it was too much. I think it was I say, uh, just quickly Googled it and done an image search on Google which which by the way is a massive top tip for me for anyone who’s thinking developing developing mood boards, or I think planning, uh, you know, surely looks their film just Google the name of a film or a picture or a photographer or.

I filmmaker already won and just go to the image searches. I can’t tell you what an effective way is for quickly very quickly digesting color palettes, um, a really good demonstration of this. I always liked and your view your viewers your listeners can try this out themselves to type. Well, make sure they don’t do this if they have a sensitive disposition but to type horror into Google and then just go to the image search.

Um, and it’s fascinating what you find what you find is essentially blacks whites and uh, pure pure primary red. It’s it’s almost you know with the odd bit of sick green thrown in it’s um, you know, it’s fascinating. It’s a very good way. To get a feel for the general color palettes of looks that are embedded in most films.

So if I type in Speed Racer and go to an image search, which is what I did last year talkin, I can see exactly what you mean those Vivid comic book blues and reds and Sky Blues the film as well which but to an extent that it’s not it’s not even I’ve never seen before. I don’t think it has been was so intense, especially the Blu-ray if you watch it on Blu-ray it is it’s so intense, uh, I love for you to watch it.

It’s a fascinating thought especially with color. Don’t call a great anything after you watch it though. Your eyes will be wiped for free. I was gonna say on the topic of films where they really go for it with color. I mean, it’s like, you know, there’s no subtlety involved at all Hugo is a classic one Scorsese goes to town with that and the way it’s embedded in the in the art Direction and the Wardrobe in the makeup and everything.

Look if Ike. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know that. But I think that the important thing to remember in every single case and every single one of those films we’ve just mentioned is the color is serving The Narrative. Yes, it’s never there for its own sake it’s never there. Just yeah exactly just to make things look pretty um, if you want to make something just look pretty keep it natural skin tones looking normal make it nice and glossy and high contrast and you know, add a little bit of golden light into it and you know Bish bash Bosh if you want to try something that serves the.

It makes people feel a certain way and try the story and and in certain cases becomes even a character into its own right then you know, that that’s where color can be really powerful. There is a scene in uh, I just directed a new film and there’s a scene in it where and I colored it as well. We’re at the beginning there at the bottom of the hill and at the bottom of the hill.

It’s all very colorful but as they go up the hill up these long flight of stairs. That’s almost, you know an Epic Journey. It’s slowly. All the way to the very top there nice. It’s cooled. It’s muted and it’s subtle you will unless you’re looking for you won’t notice it but it was done very purposefully because then at that point of the journey now, it starts getting harder and harder and they’re not as happy as they were when they first got on the journey.

So yeah, I know it’s a nice trick is it’s a really nice. There’s so many things that color is can do it’s still still so massively underappreciated by which is you know, not in a not in a little you don’t appreciate us just in a you know, I don’t even know you exist. I don’t even know you I guess it’s like the old saying, you know, if you notice the editing then the editors still have bad job.

It is sometimes feels a bit like that. But I do feel like um color grading is is it’s becoming it’s so. Much more part of people’s General awareness. Now, I’m actually lower end of the kind of filmmakers spectrum and that’s because of the point of entry the price point and the accessibility of it through things like resolve light and and cheaper Hardware that can run, you know programs that are operating in 32-bit float, you know color spaces that um that just couldn’t happen on, you know, laptops and desktop computers and you know, you have to go to work stations in the past and that’s.

Opened up the floodgates in a sense, but that doesn’t mean that they’re suddenly understands everything that we’re talkin about. These are things that come through study and through um, you know talkin to colorist have been doing it a long time and research and experience and practice and this is I guess why I think directing color is is an important call.

I mean, I would say this I made it but I do think it’s a little bit about the course. Well, it was born out of the fact that um, uh me and um, uh Scott who who runs em said we were chatting about the fact that um, there were no color grading courses on at that time. And um, you know, there’s all lots of practical filmmaking causes and there were some editing courses, but but color didn’t kind of get a look in and I as a colors thought that that should be addressed and he was like fun make us a course as I owe.

Um, then it was like, okay, what do we do? And I guess the obvious thing is to make a straightforward color grading course and um, there’s a huge appetite for that and we will be doing that and we’ll be really um, you know going going to town on on that side of things are making, you know, a big Master Class about color grading, but initially what um, I proposed to Scott was that we did something that was was shorter and more kind of easily digestible and kind of got the whole thing kind of conversation started around color and um, and then.

Like well, what do we choose and I the thing that kind of swung it for me was I run a film school at training academy cooker Academy and we are a black magic training partner and I’m a black magic certified trainers. So for years now, I’ve been teaching people DaVinci Resolve. I’ve been teaching people color grading and probably the most common thing I get asked about is, um, you know from editors or directors or filmmakers is I want to learn about color.

Can you teach me DaVinci Resolve and over the years I kind of got sort of bored of saying to people. Hang on. What do you want to do? You want to learn how to color or do you want to learn how to operate different to resolve and in their minds there wasn’t a separation between those two things as far as I’m concerned.

I want to learn how to color grade therefore teach me different to resolve like well known that that you know that I that’s like saying I want to learn about the world and teach me how to drive so you might only drive to the end of the road. That means you never going to learn about the world and it’s kind of the same thing.

So I started to do and I’ve been doing this for years with I developed a color like. The color theory course, but really it’s you know, it’s not really it makes it sound a bit dry. But um directing color sounds much better. Um, and essentially it was a one-day course I said I didn’t insist but I would say to people look I’d strongly recommend that if you’ve never conducted a tool you come on this color theory course first and we talk about the why first, you know, we talk about why you would want to do something we break down films where this is done.

We talk about chroma subsampling and how.

Empty you press into popular. It turned out has been one of our most popular courses and um, so when it came to kind of decided Well, what should we? Kind of pick to do as a as a shorter kind of one hour ish course you could get things started with them said I thought well this seems like a a good cause but you know is a very dry course, so I had to kind of think of a format for how we could make that more accessible and also just more entertaining because ultimately you’re asking people to pay money to sit there and watch something for an hour.

I should really make something that people want to sit down and watch. Now that’s where the idea came to basically piggyback on the on the back of a commercial that my Film Production Company Cora films was making um, and so essentially killing two birds with one stone. We were kind of doing a behind-the-scenes of be shooting a commercial for these uh for the for a company and then the sort of talkin to the camera about why I was doing certain things and how we developed a color palette for that film and then it’s into cut with stuff where I’m a grading sweet and breaking down grades and.

It was it was great. I saw it and it really is something that we you know as filmmakers need and I don’t think there is much out there about this about the theory and especially it’s done in a very entertaining way. Uh, it’s very digestible and uh, you can get in and get out very quickly and it’s something that I think you become a better director after you watch it.

And for everyone listening I’ll definitely put links to uh to the course in the show notes as well. Lovely lovely now. I want to ask you a few questions that I ask all my guest. Um, okay. This is kind of like the the lightning round. Uh, what advice what advice would you give a filmmaker wanted to break into the business today?

Um, whatever you do turndown Peter oil twice when opportunity knocks and you in the horse is literally have a gift in its mouth do not turn away. Okay, great. Um, can you tell me uh, what book had the biggest impact on your life or career? Oh, that’s an interesting one. Um, uh, well, that’s a colorist.

I think one of the one of the books that was instrumental and Rudi helpful when I first thought went from I’m really interested in color and playing with color and to I’m now a professional colorist and something that really helped me was um, the colorist Hamburg, um, which yeah Alexis van hurkman is just the Don um, and that.

Is just chock-full of really useful information. Uh, I can’t recommend it highly enough. You know, that was that was a huge book for me. Um in terms of filmmaking, I I did by um, the Peter Jackson’s autobiography which talks about his staying out as a filmmaker and his career goes right from here messing around making films as a small child or a movie by the way.

Yeah. Yeah absolutely movies. If I correctly if you’re under 18, don’t don’t go and watch them straight away. Actually there they aged quite badly. They were they were badly age when he made them sir. I think he would say the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but uh, I think that book was was really interesting.

I mean any any book any boy ography autobiography filmmakers? I find really fascinating. I just think, you know directors and filmmakers generally are most often. In life, very interesting people and seeing how their careers developed. I think really really fun and informative cool. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Um, Um learning to say no. Um, probably I’m still quite bad at it. Uh, I I uh, I sometimes feel kind of duty-bound to do things for clients or do things for people who aren’t even clients that um that really anyone else would like really what why are you why are you doing that way? That’s how I got you.

That’s how I got you on the show. Why you talkin to this guy? I mean, I just help myself. I see I see a guy who’s clearly in need of some kind of support. I can’t help but stop measly obviously, obviously, um now and learning to say no a really good a really good thing. In fact, I read something really interesting, um in about Steve Jobs years ago, which was he never stayed in a job.

For uh for more than a week, he didn’t like it and I think generally, you know, I try and kind of remember that and sometimes you don’t need to know what you want. You just need to know what you don’t want and and and know that you should say no to things that you don’t want and know and have faith that ultimately that’s going to lead you towards the thing that you did want.

Even if he didn’t know what it was very good. Very good answer now, what are three of your favorite films of all time? Oh, um, my number one. These are really these are not filmmakers films. I’m just going to say this now. I’m fine. I’m not I’m not gonna come out with some Citizen Kane 400 blows.

Yeah Godfather. Do you know what I just gonna be like pure entertainment? Sure. I Love Wedding Crashers. It’s one of my favorites. It’s a fun film. Um, I um, uh outside really my favorite film is a film which for some reason has completely gone out of my brain sideways. There we go. Oh, yeah, but sideways is a really underappreciated film.

I think it’s some of the best writing some of the best acting um pain fantastic film fantastic film. Um, and uh, do you I think Whiplash has to be in my top three as well I do. I really really liked that film um intense, but the thing is if you if you if you think about it too long, you quite quickly come up a list of about a hundred films, of course, but those that come to mind very cool.

And now where can people find you online. So, um, as I saw I run two businesses, so from a Film Production side of view and for me as a colorist that will go through Koro films, which is Cora films chorus spell in a really stupid way. Um, just to make it harder for people to find me online sure fantastic marketing.

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So that’s K. It means nothing. It’s a made-up word. It’s gibberish. It’s absolutely. It really is and so I thought that would be a great thing to use for a business. Um, and so you you are you are I mean, you are the uh, the poster child for uh for high and marketing I gotta say, uh, I really had a business development is my middle name, uh, So yeah, korokoro films is the film production company Academy is the film school.

We do. Um, we’ve recently launched an eight-week Film Academy, which is very novel. It’s basically every course I’ve ever taught and everything that lives in my brain about filmmaking rammed down your throat over every day five days a week for eight weeks and um, Yeah, and it’s basically meant to be a three-year degree in eight weeks and it’s followed up with uh, followed up with a three-month mentorship scheme immediately afterwards and it’s kind of it’s meant to be my kind of two fingers up to higher education, um particularly in this country and.

Um the fact that I don’t know what it’s like in the States but in the UK at the moment, if you go to film school if you go and do a three year degree anywhere you’re coming out with minimum, you know, Thirty forty thousand pounds worth of debt. Which dollars that’s yeah. I think it gets a lot worse there, isn’t it?

Oh my God, you’re talkin about 60 to 100 thousand dollars. So that’s you know, probably like 80,000 pounds. The thing is in this country. That’s that model with we’ve adopted uh, but it’s only relatively new. So even when I went to University, which was only 18 years ago. Um, I left with I think it was just over 10,000 pounds worth of exactly how much are left with you.

Yeah, yeah, which at the time was like, you know felt like you know, it just keeps going up and up and up. But you know, I was one of the first people that went to University when you had to pay but literally like end of the 90s and of before that it was all Grant based system. And so you didn’t cost you anything to go to university.

So, um, it’s basically my kind of. Um response to that was, you know, basically fuck that. Let’s let’s just um cram that information into your head you can take it and if you can’t then, you know go and do another course, but it’s a kind of unapologetic Film School in eight weeks course, but we also do.

Two and three days, um courses certified black magic courses for resolve which you take an exam at the end and you can become a bat magic certified professional user. So yeah, we do quite a lot very cool man. What man thank you so much. It has been an absolute pleasure geeking out with you about color and all sorts of things and arguably one of the greatest stories of missed opportunity I’ve ever heard in my life, which I will now recite any time I speak publicly.

Yeah, only. Thanks again man. I appreciate it. Pleasure. Thanks so much. This is what happens when you get to post guys in a room together. We just start talkin and talkin and talkin. But listen, I hope you guys got a lot out of that episode. Holly dropped some really great knowledge bombs, um on the on the tribe today and I just wanted you I hope if you listen to this episode all the way that you understand the power of color and how to now incorporate color on set in pre-production and also, All agreeing to really make your films and projects stand apart.

Now if you want to link to the course that alley created called directing color just head over to the show notes at any film also and MZ. Who is the author of the course as well with Ali is having a sale these next few days. So definitely take advantage and head over there ASAP and if you’ve not already, please head over to filmmaking podcast and leave a 5-star review for the show.

It really helps us out on the rankings and helps us get to more filmmakers. So thank you again so much for listening guys. And as always keep the house going keep that dream alive, and I’ll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the indie film hustle podcast at indie film hustle.