BPS 021: How to Tell Your Internal Story with Jen Grisanti

Welcome to the bulletproof screenplay podcast episode number 21 plot is the most underestimated of all the major writing skills. Most Riders know the value of strong main character and lean hardening dialogue, but when it comes to plot, they think that just going to figure it out as they go which never happens.

John Drewe be broadcasting from a dark windowless room in Hollywood when we really should be working on that next round. It’s the bulletproof screenplay cast showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here’s your host Alex Ferrari.

Welcome. Welcome to another episode of the bulletproof screenplay podcast. I am your humble host. Alex Ferrari now Today’s Show is sponsored by bulletproof script coverage now unlike other script coverage Services bulletproof script coverage actually focuses on the kind of project you are in the goals of the project you are so we actually break it down by three categories micro-budget indie film market and Studio film.

There’s no reason to get coverage from a reader that used to reading Temple movies when your movie is going to be done for $100,000 and we wanted to focus on that. Script coverage. Our readers have worked with Marvel Studios CAA wnbc HBO Disney scot-free Warner Brothers, The Black List and many many more.

So if you need your screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers head on over to cover my screenplay and the show is also sponsored by master class. Now. I know a lot of you probably heard of Master Class where they have amazing classes on screen writing from. Aaron Sorkin Shonda Rhimes Steve Martin on Comedy Judd Apatow on how to write comedy.

Uh, but now they’re offering a free 7-Day trial. So you guys can take these courses for free It’s amazing And if you are a screenwriter definitely go sign up and take the classes for free you got seven days to watch as many classes as you want. So just head over to indie film muscle free master class and take advantage while it lasts.

Now today on the show we have guests Jen Jen is a former Hollywood executive working with Aaron Spelling for many many years and now is a current script consultant. She’s also the author of storyline finding gold in your life story as well as the TV writing toolkit how to write a script that sells.

And I want to have Jen on the show to get a perspective of someone who’s actually been in the business. Who knows what these studios are looking for knows what these production companies are looking for and how she really works with story and how to mind your own life story and experiences to help fuel your creative writing and her clients have written for every major television show on the air over the past 10 years.

The list is insane. I had a real ball talking to Jen and she dropped some major knowledge bombs on the tribe this week. So without any further Ado here is my conversation with Jenna. I like to welcome to the show Jen croissant. Thank you so much for being on the show. Oh, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

You are a very very busy lady and uh doing lots of lots of good work for a lot of screenwriters out there. So thanks for taking the time out to talk to the tribe. It is my pleasure. Thank you. So, how did you. Into this crazy business, you know, I went to USC and I studied Cinema and communication never heard and I uh, and then I yeah, I got out of school.

I really didn’t have anybody contact wise. Uh, I knew I wanted entertainment. I didn’t know exactly what capacity so I went to Friedman. Uh, uh job finding agency, which is focused on entertainment, uh jobs and that helped me build my resume also, which is great for people to know like Justin cold calling and called all my top places that I’d want.

I wanted to work and I said I’m willing to intern and that helped me build my resume and then I. Real quick. Is that something that you think that is is doable even in today’s world with so much more competition. I definitely do. I mean I I talked to so many people who do Coke calling and it’s that well first of all when you’re offering to work for free as an intern that that certainly has its leverage which you know, it’s just can you afford to do that?

Uh, So identify recommend like what I didn’t know and of course, I was in college as a whole different time than now but um, what I didn’t know is like I should have started during college doing all my interns what I did. Yeah. Say that the smart way to go. And so and yeah, I definitely believe in the cold calling is a good way.

And then the great thing is when you do apply to an agency like the freedmen agency or the Komar agency in Beverly Hills, then you have a resume already started. So you’re not like going into these companies with nothing on your resume. And uh, and then you get placed. I got placed in the spelling office.

So. You know through Friedman and that changed my entire career. I mean, you know that was uh a pivotal moment, uh in the deciding of what direction I was going to go with my career. Now, let’s talk a little bit about the spelling office. And you say Spelling office. You’re talkin about the legendary Aaron Spelling for the for the audience for audience members who don’t know who are installing is please tell a little bit about who he is and what he did and then how was it like being mentored by a by a giant horse?

Of course? Well, Aaron Spelling if you I’m like the younger audience doesn’t have near. Uh as much knowledge and I and I totally understand and appreciate that CW has done a new 902 and a new Melrose Place. But Aaron Spelling was the originator of like Dynasty TJ hooker in the million shifts, like he is one of the most prolific producers in history with the number of hours of Television that he produced and then when I started in his office, he 90210 had been going for a year.

There was a point near career. That um that they called ABC because he had seven shows on ABC they called it Aaron’s Broadcasting Company and then in that didn’t go over too. Well so so that you know, so he went through that era and then he and then he all of a shows got cancelled at a similar, uh time that were happening at that time.

And then he kind of went through a dry spell uh before. Here to one which really, uh, so when I entered his office, he was in such a place of he was so humble and so open because of what he had experienced and and 902 and I was taking off at the time that I was in the office first year and then Melrose Place was the day that I started Melrose Place was being cast.

So the original the original amount is placed in the original Beverly Hills night or two went out so that that was you know, then spelling was on fire again, and then everybody wanted to be in business with him and he did a lot of business with Fox, uh, obviously because of nine or to Melrose Place and then branched out into CVS and other network NBC.

And uh, and it really thinks took off again. So it was a very good time. I was 24. He was 69. So it was a very good time because he was in a life place where where he wanted to mentor and he really wanted to teach me how to be his eyes and ears. For you know for scripts and Story coming in. So I was very blessed.

You know, I’m at the right place at the right time. I was yeah, it was a good good thing for for people listening. I mean, you can’t underestimate the power of what 90210 did and Melrose Place did at the time it was a phenomenon it really it really was I actually lived uh down the street in Florida in that mall where Luke.

Created the riot. I love that. I love that. I mean it was a pivotal time in my life. And even though like I had graduated college when it was first started. It was still such a pivotal time because High School is such a time for every single one of us. It’s such a gross period that way we’re going through like a huge Arc of growth and so looking at them kind of.

Through their their Joys and their trials and their tribulations it brings us back into it, but they but they were all 27 at least. Yes. I know there’s nobody who was a teenager that’s creative Liberty doubt about that. I mean look Terry I think was like 30. I was like 13 years old. So I remember all that with that choice.

Yeah. Yeah such a good guy. Now, what did you um, what were some of the biggest takeaways you got from Erin, you know, I mean, I I again it was a gift to be taught by uh a gentleman. Who was so about the work and so passionate about the work and so like he expected a lot from you in that he expected, you know.

He expected Perfection and that was a very hard thing to learn to really operate on that level, but it was the greatest training ground in because he expected Perfection from himself and he gave it and it really helped you to look at things and really operate in the high-level now, it’s not to say like when I say the word Perfection you are going to make mistakes along the way in every path.

And and it really I think what a lot of what he taught me was, you know, if a mistake is made then it’s how you fix it. That makes the difference it it’s how you respond after it how you take responsibility for it how you move forward after it. He he was a master when it came to story. So watching him in the uh, we would have rough Cuts in his office of the episodes and a rough.

Is after production is done and it comes into the producers office and then you watch what’s called rough cut and and it was always a really amazing to see how you could take a script and do all your notes on the script and then when it would be filmed then recognize well there changes that I want to make and through editing like just watching how he would do things to like make the.

Break more impactful or uh, how he will move around seeing so that the story will work in a lot stronger way and and really, you know learning about I think the thing that made him the happiest was, you know, knowing that he had the ability to discover young talent and by Young I don’t mean age. I just mean Young At the beginning of the career so he to discover.

Who are talent and and know that he could open a door that could change someone’s life. Now, how long were you with Aaron Spelling 12 years while you are there for a while? Yes, and you and you I’m assuming you you Rose in the ranks. I did I buy now and again, it’s always good for people here. Like it’s really focusing on what you want.

I was lucky there at the time. I was in his office. Um, my mom had given me tapes from Tony Robbins and that Cape said had really, uh helped me. What do I want? And how do I get there? And what are the action steps that I need to take? So when I was in his office, I recognized there was no one reading scripts in his inner office in his immediate office.

So because he would always do like five or ten calls trying to find the answers to things. I thought well, why don’t I just read the scripts? Of course that meant that I’ve worked till 8:30 at night read scripts tell 11:30 at night. But it was worth it and said that is what began the process of me reading scripts and then we go over the script the following day and that’s really what taught me and then from there, uh, I became a coordinator of current programming than a manager then a director and then I ran current programming at his company for my last two and half years before I was promoted to CBS Paramount where I was vice president.

Programming and were you there during the Charmed years? I was yes to love that show. Yeah. Yeah. Charmed was a blast. It was amazing with that show to see where it started and see where it went as well. I think that was the most rewarding part of current programming was, you know, really watching a show.

Develop and find its voice and find its audience within the time and certainly we’re in a day and age where uh, the TV shows don’t have the luxury now that they did one. I started my career in that now they really, you know, ideally a current show usually can take anywhere from five to eight episodes.

To really find its voice and to really blend the network the studio and the showrunners vision into something that really works. And now the hard thing is is very often. You don’t have that kind of time. So you have to find what the show is sooner right? Because it’s just too much comp before the mission channels and you can either watch what we’re putting out or you can watch nothing exactly.

And there was three of them there was three shows on at nine o’clock. I know I mean when I started my career, they only specs people were writing were Sopranos and Sex in the City, you know, I made it was like, you know how fascinating how different things are now very much. Can we talk a little bit about the explosion in scripted series and the opportunities for writers today?

I mean isn’t there like 450? Yeah it’s fast. Like even though. There’s massive opportunity on television and there definitely is it doesn’t make the path to getting a job that much easier. I wish that is right doors will be open. I think it’s just more competition. There is if there would have been 450, uh shows in 1990.

Yeah, then yes anybody who could literally just get up to a typewriter. Yeah and script had something like. Monkey could get a job. Yeah, but there’s so much more now as you bought that case. I mean, it really takes a village to get a person staffed like when I was starting as an executive, you know, really?

I mean, I really worked hard on Staffing most of the shows that I worked on. I worked with my executive producer and I was in all the meetings with the writers and I handled many of the calls with the agents. So. Really saw you know what went into why why the people were getting staffed were getting steps?

And so it was in in a shows you and I definitely think trust me. Am I I am I uh, my business consultancy ink, I’ve been doing this for 10 years and I look at how many feature writers I’ve worked with that. I. Gotten to write television and just because there definitely is more opportunity in TV.

So, uh, if the talent is there in my opinion the platform to be in is Television right now, that’s what everyone ya talkin to says the exact same. Well, there’s a Renaissance it really is and it started with the support. I would would you argue It Started With The Sopranos honest. Yeah, I would totally agree.

Yeah, it’s in the kind of just went from there. Yeah, because could Breaking Bad of happened in the 90s. I know I mean, you do look at the pivotal shows and the fascinating thing now like when you look at shows now, like like, uh, the and sense Aid and fleabag and there’s a great show on Netflix called.

Um, Uh song 10% or call my agent is the English title and that it’s brilliant. And so, you know, I think the work being done right now a lot of the shows that I teach from currently. I I can’t tell you like like so many of the shows that I teach from our British show. To you know, that land on network.

Uh, I mean on Netflix, uh or Amazon or Hulu and uh, they get to go outside the box they have more freedom and because they have more freedom and more creative Liberty. I I find that I’m able to create Story tools from the writing on there that I’m able to pass on to the writer so that they can write the script that can’t be ignored that will.

To a sale that will lead to them getting staffed. And do you suggest that writers? Uh do a screenplay or teleplay first? Which one do you think if there’s if you’re a screenwriter and you want to get attention. Do you write a teleplay first or do you write a feature screenplay first as a proof proof of concept?

I mean you certainly like when you’re looking at writing portfolio right now, you could have a feature script in it. Now, you’re never gonna get someone in television to read it feature script unless. They hear it so good in the content in it is so right for the show that is being staffed. So so really in TV you want to right now, of course you have what you’re asking I think as well as you write a spec script of a show that’s already on.

What do you write an original and you know, there are different schools of thought certainly when I came up the ranks you had to have. To spec scripts and your writing portfolio that we’re current. No, no older than two years old and two originals and I would definitely say there’s been a shift and that there are writers out there who really don’t want to write uh, t v spec scripts or existing shows.

They only want to write original material. It used to be that you couldn’t you had to have it and the reason was. Because when you would try to you know when I would picture brighter to my executive producer with a TV pilot. They would read the pilot first and be you know, and really want to know the original voice of the writer, but then they want they’d ask for the spec script because they wanted to know that that writer knew how to mimic somebody else’s voice.

Right? And that’s a really good point when you when you’re writing for a show because a lot of writers have a very unique voice, you know, Tarantino has one of the arguably one of the most unique voices out there. Uh, and he did do some. He did a CSI. Uh episode and an ER episode action. I love it.

Oh, that’s great. I didn’t know that they ended and they and he wrote them but he was Tarantino so they let him kind of go off a little bit but generally but generally speaking when a writer comes on staff. He has to mimic the show he can’t just be himself or herself. Yeah. How do you what kind of what kind of tips do you have for writers to be able to adapt like that?

Well, Have to know I think also now more than ever you have to understand your voice and and I always ask Writers Do you know what your voice is and then I’ll get like say a third of a room, uh that nose and then I’ll say how would you describe it and then I’ll have like. Maybe four hands left that really want really know how to describe their voice.

And so I think part of the journey for the writer is knowing what your voice is and then when you’re mimicking somebody else’s show I’ve had many writers say well, I can’t really use my voice on someone else’s show because it’s their show, you know, that that’s not true because you what a writer, you know, I remember uh, Danna Shannon who’s an Emmy Award.

Brighter from Modern Family. He said to me like one of his strategies and I I loved it of when he was Staffing four shows at the beginning of his career was he would find out the character that they struggled the most with writing-wise. And he would make he would have a pitch ready with that character in a a stronger light so that they would realize they need him on that show.

And so I thought that was such a such a great approach but I I think like for me when I remember watching a show likes a big glove on HBO and I would know as soon as I saw the writers name. I would know if I was going to love the episode because I so understood the voice of each writer in the capability of each writer with the stories.

So so there’s definitely even in mimicking. Somebody else’s voice like you with your spec scripts. You definitely don’t want to write a spec script that doesn’t feel like a produced episode. You want to write a script that feels like a produced episode. But you also want to write a script that dies and digs deep into you know, the emotional aspect of the story or the uniqueness of the story that makes it so that yours is a script that can’t be ignored.

I remember um, I remember there was a writer on Charmed who I brought him into the executive producer and he got staffed in the room based on the strength of his Spectra. He wrote a Sopranos. That was so memorable. Like I still remember it and it was you know, Tony when they showed a flashback of Tony bunny was a child and he got caught masturbating by his mom and the shame that was in that moment transferred to everything that was going on in the current pot.

And so he he’s threaded it through so that everybody could connect. With what that experience must have been like which brought you so much deeper into the story and it was a memorable script, you know, and then like, I mean people did. Stuff like I had writer’s right combinations spec script. Like I had there was a writer that wrote a Sopranos and a Sex in the City mixed, you know, so there certainly were different strategies that people use wait a minute.

That’s Tony and carry in the same episode. Yeah. I’m sure he got some notice for it. I know in the end people remember this I remember there was also a writing team who have been together. Many many years and they wrote a pilot. That was Loosely based on their split and everyone wanted to know that story so that became you know, so I definitely think there are there are such um original ways.

And as I said when you look at shows like flea bag and. The and deep course Aunt like they’re you there are ways to go outside the box with your voice but still have uh a strong structure. There are also shows that um, That are succeeding quite honestly, then are the structure isn’t great but the voice is great.

And so, you know, so there’s something to be said about this as well. That’s why I think it’s more important now than ever to know your voice and and create Concepts that really utilize the strength of your voice. Uh again that voice is so strong in the show like stranger things, which is a phenomenon at this point, but that voice is so strong and specific.

It is Thirteen Reasons Why I mean so many like there’s just so many smell spits now up for best comedy. There are so many shows that that people are going outside the box and they’re taking risks in they’re not doing traditional. Shirin sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t but there’s a freedom to do that stuff.

Yeah, where couldn’t you couldn’t do it before? Yeah, I look at the show like Frank and uh, Frankie and Grayson Frankie. Yes, which is I just love that to well-written. Yeah and so funny and it’s so out like they would never put that never be on network television. It just put it could I agree so wonderful to see them all.

Yeah. Pounding it, you know the stories are just pounding at the uh at a high level as you yes now. What is the biggest mistake? You see first-time writers make. You know, I think when it comes down to development story, I think the biggest mistake made in Pilots is either too much character not enough plot or too much plot, not enough character.

So, um, I think it’s really recognizing that you know, uh TV is a character based business. So your audience is coming back because of your characters, so so it’s really doing. They work on developing two to three of your characters in a very strong way that brings your audience back and I think that many writers, you know first they’ll populate their show way too much and have way too many characters and and they’ll have several characters serving the same purpose.

And you mean the same thing and so, you know, I think it’s understanding. It’s really understanding that less is more. And and when an executive like when I would have 300 scripts behind me during Staffing season, and I opened a script first of all with drama as you want to be around 58 to 60 Pages Max and uh, and you don’t want it to be so complex that the executive would have to read it three times to really be able to grasp the concept.

So so it’s really writing. Word that recognition and I would say newer writers. You know have the weight of oh my God. I have to make this stand out and it has to be a Dynamo. And in order to be a Dynamo. So many people think they have to reinvent the wheel and in doing so they lose a graph. Um, um what it is, they’re trying to say that their story because they’re trying to impress.

Yes. No with that on that topic trying to impress and this is something I’ve seen and I’ve heard from multiple places where I love to hear your opinion. Sometimes when you’re reading a script especially from a new writer you you see them using not only 50 Cent words, but dollar fifty words, um that are just you know, so out there as far as you know, just reading do you feel that?

By doing that you alienate the reader sometimes because you know, it’s not supposed to be. A vocabulary test, you know, I know that note is definitely given and writers on the verge of them DC. I’m writing instructor there like and I’ve done that for nine years now, and I know that one of the notes that is often given, um by my colleague Karen horn who who runs the whole Diversity Program that MVC.

Um, all of the diversity programs Karen like she’s definitely given the notice if. Can’t understand it then, you know what? I mean? So so you have to guess you have to think of those things like if it’s one thing like to go. Oh I want to use big words because I want to impress my audience now it really is looking at my always say like you always have to think what serves the story in the skies way right and what you know, and but if the reader has to literally stop reading your script and go to the dictionary.

Because they can’t really place the use of the word. Then there’s a problem you’re interrupting the process you’re interrupting the flow, but I am a person I have to be honest. I like a vocabulary like I am interested and the people who get and I like the lyrical and the poetic use in the language.

I’m a big person of I love when I read, uh action lines that they even get really creative with the. In line like that for me. I love all that now that I read in um in Stephen King’s book on writing. He actually brought that up. He’s like look, you know and he’s arguably one of the most successful writers in history.

Yeah. He’s like look I can use big words watch and he just lays out this. That little paragraph with 4045 words. I’ve never even heard of and he’s like, did you understand that? No, that means I didn’t sell that book. So stop it. Yeah, and I could not I could not agree more I have to admit that like I don’t think I’ve ever put a script down and said those words are too big and I can’t get it now rare now.

I also very experienced really. For 25 years. There’s General audience reading scripts today. Yes, it’s true. Now. It’s very true. Well, and I have to say it’s fascinating thing to the and what people have to consider like, you know, I have um writers in my story was community and they’re always on a private Facebook and I always look at the comments and see what writers are talking about.

And I know recently I’ve had several of my writers. From my story when I am weak tell us them and our end up doing incredibly well in the competitions and the writing programs. And so, um, they were talking about this one Festival which I’m not going to name, but there were talking about this one Festival where you know several of them had one or play.

In several competitions based on the script there one script and and then they sent it to this festival and suddenly the feedback didn’t a dull a line with all the other feedback that they’ve gotten and and that’s because some of these festivals pay their readers nothing and the readers are 25 years old and they don’t have the experience with store.

To be able to give the feedback that really really reflects. What the work. And so when you’re writing the big words and you’re going over the top you have to think about things like that. Like if you have a 25 year old reader who misses the whole point of your story because of your vocabulary that’s problem.

You’ll never get to a person like you who can actually understand it because yeah The Gatekeepers will let it go through. Yeah. It’s it’s it’s strategy as much as it is writing. Yes, and it is now everything is. Strategy, I always say to writers like when you’re designing your writing portfolio.

You have to think what are the three top shows that I would die to write on and then you have to look at your portfolio and go does my portfolio support that. Fairly simple, but very it’s something that is Miss quite often. Yes. Yes, like the director who wants to direct action movies, but he’s only done period dramas and you know, I am a believer that I I see the dream happen all the time.

So I’m definitely not a person who’s going to say the dream doesn’t happen because the dream happens every day and and you I think the the biggest. The strongest component for the writers. I’ve work with that, uh have made it in a big way is belief you have to have belief in your talent because if you don’t believe nobody else will now what is what stop screenwriters from being successful getting in their own way.

I mean, I I see it all the time. I see it all the time. You know, you see writers who? Write too much and don’t know how to edit back and and they talk like that as well when they’re in a room like there. There are so much being said that you have to really fish out. What is the main point of what is being said?

So that’s certainly a way and I know that’s nervous energy and that’s and you have to go through things to really know them but the things like in other thing ways people get in their own way. Is still they’ll uh, they’ll be in a room and they’ll alienate other people or they’ll um, they’ll they won’t talk at all.

They won’t contribute. So so that’s a problem or they’ll talk too much and you’ll feel like okay. They just want to hear themselves think and and. You know, there’s not valuable stuff coming out here. So I think the whole editing process on the page and in the room, uh is the biggest part and then I think you have incredibly talented writers who are very internal people and to make a writing career happen.

You have to be extra. So so that Journey, you know, the perfect pilot that went into that was Silicon Valley, you know Richard winner looks at dude, you got to make something of Pied Piper. You’re out of the house Richard then. Who is a very internal person had to learn to become external in the first scene?

He’s pitching is Pied Piper idea to these two, uh guys at the sink at the office and they laugh at him and and that you know, but that’s the process like the growth process is yeah, you’re going to make mistakes you’re going to pitch ideas that people don’t like that’s okay. At least you’re trying and you’re learning and you’re growing.

You’re above and you’re moving forward and that’s what you want to be doing. You certainly don’t want Talent. Like it drives me crazy when I see incredible Talent, they never be realized because of one thing that could that gets in the way of the outcome happening. Happens in every aspect of the of life, but in the film business I’ve seen a to directors and their own way.

We’ve seen it publicly to some yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I need the whole new world going on right now. I think do you know like for me though and not to go into any thing on that which I certainly could but I I, you know my feeling with that is. Now that it’s been exposed and and the careers and livelihoods and everything else.

Okay are gone gone down the drain and now it’s like it has to be about the focus needs to move into changing systems so that this doesn’t happen like that is more important than ever right now. I certainly love that out of all this. Daughters are sewing to be able to go after the dream without having to go through that like that makes my heart very happy too.

I don’t have kids but my yeah like that. It’s an important thing. And so I I think I think it’s a growth time for everybody in the business to really look at the havior. And understand it. Yeah, the one thing I find fascinating about it and I’ve never seen this. I don’t think ever other than maybe in the um McCarthy day number karthi.

But um, is it McCarthy? They were doing the doing the Communists? Yes. Yes here, um that I don’t think that’s you know, everything that’s happening right now is completely valid, uh and needed without question, but I’ve never seen. Complete careers oscar-winning careers. I know gone. I didn’t like it’s gone.

Kevin. Spacey will not work again. I can’t see I can’t see my path back. I can’t see a path back Hollywood love the Redemption story. I do that’s I like people like Harvey Weinstein. She’s gonna cause. That that you look at and you know and there are other there are other big ones that I’m not even gonna name.

Look now, you sit there and you go they can’t they can’t like it was too dark in there were too many people saying too many things that aligned and so you have to but I you know see stuff like this intrigues me on a psychological level because I would love to see a show done. Where the lead character is like a Kevin Spacey or a Matt Lauer or a Harvey Weinstein and how do they move through life?

After that fall so your interest so like a Breaking Bad but instead of selling method there there harassers their life. I mean they’re having to figure out that’s a heck are they went wrong? And how do they get? Back on track because I’m that’s a curiosity to like after you know, I mean literally they wiped Kevin Spacey from this movie.

Yes a few for the release. That’s wild. That is I like your race that’s like gone doing it now now your house of cards and all this kind of stuff. Um, and the funny thing is I I’m talkin to my friends who you know are in the business, but you know, I’ve been around a bit longer than them and I’m like.

Guys gonna come out next. This guy’s gonna come out next and this do you know what I feel that too? You said that like I was at dinner with a close friend of mine who had a big project with a big producer and I said, his days are numbered and two days later. It was in the trades. And yes, it’s so true.

It’s I mean, I was talkin to my buddy the other day. I’m like, you know, who’s coming out next it’s gonna be ratner’s coming next. Is the one we all heard it? I know we all knew and I by the way, I heard those stories when he was in Miami rush hour. Yes before he was a big so I’ve heard these stories and then I heard about Bryan Singer.

I heard of him before that happened. Yeah, Brian and Kevin both I heard about them back in 2001. Yeah. I was hearing about those two. That’s how long ago it was, it’s Insanity well, The thing that’s hard about this too is there there’s a lot of hypocrisy so so, you know, there’s certainly uh, you know things have to change absolutely there.

There are a lot of people that supported this who aren’t being punished. Oh, yeah and who were a part of this happening? So it things have to change so that we don’t have uh, Careers going down the toilet left and right every day. Like literally, it feels like a PR thing of who gets what day when they come out.

I mean why and it’s not just our business. It’s not said this and it’s all over the world. London is now heavy into it. And then Australia with Geoffrey Rush, I mean everybody is in it now itself. It’s got yeah. Yeah, it’s gonna get pretty. We’ve got we’ve gone way off topic. Yeah, that’s all right.

That’s what’s going on right now. But that is we draw from that and bring that to the page without question and that’s uh, that’s very very valid now. Um, can you can you talk real quick about some bad habits? You see Writers Do all the time. Um, well, you know, there are people who will harp on typos and this and that and I.

I say whatever you can do have as few typos as possible. I definitely agree that it will distract you. However, I I I have also seen writers who just kill themselves worry wise after they enter a program because they find two typos and what you have to know is if the content is there. That’s what sells so so so you really have to trust in the content.

I would say, you know, so they you know things like things to look at like, you know study scripts. I mean look at you know, look at Scripps know how many pages are perhaps no, you know, and there’s no steadfast rule on how many pages perhaps but have a general idea like don’t have. A 30-page act one and then five pages for every other act like really know things that you should know.

Through that through looking at Scripps. Certainly. You can go the writer scale Library. There are many people who say well I can’t get a whole script number. I am my website and I’m sure you have researches as well where you go to my resources, uh page in my links and I have all the websites that have scripts and so you can get scripts and then I would say another mistake writers make is they’re not prepared for meetings.

They don’t know who they’re meeting with and there’s no excuse for this right now. Like the internet tells you everything about everyone and so you you know walk into a meeting be prepared be ready to always tell writers to think when you’re going into a meeting have three marketing points that you absolutely do not want to leave the meeting without sharing.

Have three points then you could relax in the meeting. But know that you have to bring up those three points. Now, what are those when you mean marketing points? What do you mean exactly? Well anything– that markets you as a writer. So for example, um, I’m I had I’m not gonna name him because I don’t want to embarrass him.

But it was Ashley. I love that. He shared this. I had a very big showrunner one of my seminars share a story that he had gone into a meeting that was medical show and he had 13 Years background as a medical administrator and he forgot to bring up.

Yes, so, you know, there are things that you know, you get nervous and you forget and so yeah, so that’s an example like you you have to be prepared. You have to know what is the show I’m up for what do I have in my background that shows the executive that I have a huge well of story to be able to tell stories.

For this concept if you’re going on a specific show, if you’re not going on a specific show, then you want to know like what are my overall General story points and that can you know, you definitely want to think about what is a personal anecdote that I have that reveal something about me. For example, you know, I can say for myself when I started my own business 10 years ago, um my two main story points.

For and are you know, I I was in a long relationship that ended in a short marriage and represented the death of the fairytale and I I had a uh, my career was interrupted mid-flow when I was a vice president because I thought it was going to run a studio. And so when the job when my contract wasn’t renewed on the heels of an unexpected situation.

Then I had to read readjust and redefine and everything that I was above her for having to post for like seven or eight years and my books my two books sold on those two story points. So you have to really really onion. Oh and when you share your emotional truth, that’s how you discover your audience.

That’s how you felt when I’ll go into a room and I’ll say. Aaron Spelling was my mentor for 12 years and I’ve been in the business for all this time. I’ve been writing instructor for NBC for nine years. I this I that people don’t connect with that because they don’t know that life experience. But when I say I was in a long relationship that ended in a short marriage and represented the death of the fairy tale how many people know what it is to have your heart broken?

Then you have a room big everyone knows and then I’ll say how many people have lost a job. The other half of the room racer and and it’s like then then it’s like I see you you see me and that’s what you want to do now. Can you discuss a little bit about your books? Yes. Um, so storyline finding gold in your life story is uh adding section to your truth.

So as a an executive, the biggest thing I was known for was. Really diving deep in my writer meetings Into The Well of story of writers and then I would say have you ever written about that? I’ll say not in an autobiographical way but in a way of sharing your emotional truth and and the difference in the gift of sharing your emotional truth is that you can heal and writing is.

You can heal and bury your truth in fiction, which is why people right and so, you know, it’s really this book is all about through breaking down, um features and television and both books are based on my philosophy of story which in simplistic terms and I certainly go into a much more advanced look at it in my book.

But in simplistic terms my formula that I discovered that oscar-nominated Emmy nominated Golden Globe nominated stories what I found when I extracted a formula was that every story starts with a powerful trigger incident that pushes the character into a dilemma. And then the choice that is made in that dilemma is what defines the external goal and then every action taken obstacle head needs to link back to that goal.

And it’s when the goal isn’t defined that the story doesn’t work. So we have to know what the character wants and why they want it. And so so that philosophy is in every single one of us like you talked about Michael Hagen everyone out there, you know Lee Jessup people are Alexandra. Um, uh, Dara marks, you know, like everyone.

The gift of of uh, storing people really is that we are sharing what we know through our lens through our world view a story. I happen to come from the studio executive worldview. So that’s how I see story. I see story through that lens and then after leaving that view and becoming a writing instructor for NBC and building my own business then that.

Speak and even more enhanced because I was I have the time to dig deeper into the story process and really see what it was and read every single thing out there. I mean, I I highly recommend every writer like read every script you can get your hands on read every book. That comes out on story and recognize there’s a value and against through understanding other people’s worldview and understanding how to utilize it in your voice and your worldview.

That’s a very good point is understanding and when you’re following people and because there’s so many people so many podcasts out there. Yeah so many blogs out there. Yeah, and a lot of them are saying a lot of the same stuff. Yeah, but it’s all about perspective and I think it is one of the separate issue.

Right because I mean look a lot of the information that I put out there through indie film hustle is out and other places, but I have a unique perspective and you’re right. I never thought of it that way but my worldview is coming from post production and film and kind of like the The Trenches if you will but not from directing the 200 million dollar movie.

Yeah value in your perspective because we need to know all of it. Like you’ll have people who will say, I’ll have people say well Jen. Have you ever written a script and I. Script, but I’m not a writer like I am I recognized that my strength is internal with writings. So writing articles content in books is where my love and my passion is and screenwriting is not my passion because I was raised on the analytical.

Side of it and that’s that’s the side that I love. I love diving into y story works and how to create tools to pass on to writers so that they can make their story work and I’m gonna ask you a few questions asked all of my uh, my guess so it’s kind of like rapid fire. Yeah. Um, what advice would you give a screenwriter wanting to break into the business today?

Uh, I think right right right probably the big I know so many writers who don’t write so you have to have a body of work you have to fearlessly move through every story and recognize that you grow with every script you. So you have to you know, really and I think it’s it’s it’s understanding your passion and your emotional truth.

And then it’s also looking at what? The market but not but recognizing your passion is what sells so the market has room for new ideas. So don’t think you have to write only toward the market know that you have to break toward your passion because your passion is what sells now. Can you tell me what book had the biggest impact on your life or career?

Uh, you know, I’ve had so money that’s such a good question. I mean like on a spiritual level, uh, you know, there are uh, uh God there’s a book called. Uh understanding the why I can’t forget the name exactly. I would say in uh in entertainment in writing my favorite books and I have so many of them.

I’d have to say I love stealing fire from the gods great book. Uh, my love. I love DB book the screenwriter within I love uh, oh my God, there’s a book. That I’m reading right now and I have to tell you I have never heard of this writer and his book is blowing me away. His name is Matt Berg and it’s the hidden tools of story and it the wild thing is is I think it’s structured toward.

Fiction writers not specifically television or film but he goes so deep into television and film that that I look at him and I think all right if there were a book that I if I had the time to go at the level, he goes like that’s a book that I wish I had written the book again. It is about hair and looking it up.

I think it’s the hidden. Tools uh of story. Um it is I’m looking it up right now. Um, but uh, okay, I’m gonna put it in just want to put the link in the description. Yeah, put the link in because that book I have referred to people in my my clients have been blown away by like literally, I dog-eared so many pages.

It was crazy. I’m I also love Chris Berg where I also didn’t Michael Hague. Sure. No, I am uh, oh here it is. I am a huge uh of the secret. Of story. Okay, so it’s called the secrets of story Innovative tools for perfecting your fiction. Okay, great. So, um, so yeah that will give you an I’m I’m a very spiritual writer.

So the type of of authors that I’m drawn toward are people who think in the same way perfect. Now what lesson took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life. Uh, probably, you know, I do think the idea that I’m always learning is. Listen before you speak like really listen, I think the biggest gift and I I do practice every day is really like, I think what we tend to do certainly in the writers room in meetings and everything else is we tend to like.

Either defend or get ahead of like we’re we’re hearing but we’re already thinking of our answer that we’re not really listening. So I I would say the thing that I am always I feel like the greatest gift we give each other is our time and our attention. So so that is something I think when I think about my my arc of growth in the business and I think.

Uh, when when we first started our careers, we always think oh my God, we have to speak up we have to say stuff. We have to make a point and you do but you don’t want to do it just to do it. You only want to do it when you truly have something to say and what are three of your favorite films of all time.

I would say my very favorite film of all time is the lives of others, uh, which is in German film that one, uh best, uh, foreign film won the Oscar for best foreign film in 2007 on that is definitely and then I would say the King speech I think was a Beyond Perfect film, uh, I also I would say I mean there are so many that I love that.

It’s ridiculous. But all right. Wish there were more I say that there are so many I’m talkin over like a 10-year period I wish more in one year. Um Birdman I have to say like one word man. I I watched I saw Birdman. Three or four times like for me that was that was just brilliant. It’s it’s an that movie when I saw that movie.

I was watching the screener and I was like. Oh, that’s what a director does. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I forgot because I haven’t done so long. Yeah, that’s what a director does it. Is it fascinating when you see something to like what I can say that there was I remember when I first watched The Hurt Locker and I thought oh my God, there’s something so special here, but I have to watch it again because I feel like.

I missed some of it and when I watched it again, it’s so impactful to really see just where true Brilliance comes from and and how we feel story, you know, so yeah, let me she did make one of the greatest action movies of the 90s obviously. Yeah. Yeah exactly. Exactly for Catherine now, um, what can people find you online?

They can find I’m very easy Jen. Grisanti. So uh, uh, that’s very easy. My email is Jen Jen grisanti also very easy. And if you Google me find out everything there is to know just like I mentioned that you should do on every person who you go to make I also have to recommend to like, I don’t know.

Are you familiar with film courage? Yeah, I know them sure. So it’s interesting because film I did an interview for uh film cards that they divided it into like 10 parts and I have so many people who say oh my God, I learned so much through that. So that’s that’s if you want to know me and understand my philosophy that is uh that dives pretty deep.

Great, I’ll put some of those in the show notes as well. Thank you so much for taking on your show. And I love everything you’re doing and I’m honored to be a part of it. And I love that you are getting out the word out and helping writers. I think there’s nothing better. Thank you again so much.

All right, thank you. I want to thank Jen for being on the show and dropping those major knowledge bombs on the tribe. Thank you. Again Jen and if you want to get links to anything we discussed in the. Episode including her contact information. Her books are courses things like that. Just head over to indie film hustle /b and if you haven’t already, please head over to screenwriting podcast and leave us a good five star review.

It really helps to show out a lot. We are still a young show and trying to get ranked higher and higher on iTunes. So every review counsel, please head on over. And as always keep on writing no matter what I’ll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the bulletproof screenplay podcast at bulletproof screenplay.