IFH 839: The Rodriguez List: How to Make Movies with What You Already Have with Aaron Kaufman & Brian Levin

Alex Ferrari 0:46
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:07
I just want to talk about the theme of today's episode, which is the Rodriguez list. You know, we talk a lot about Robert Rodriguez and working with him, as Aaron Kaufman has worked with him in making Sin City two and Machete Kills. And I just want to say to you, for the people listening to this who are planning on making a movie, or want to make a movie, here's what I would suggest you do. I would make three or two, four lists. One would be an asset list of all the props and sort of you know things that I might need. Two is a location list, and three is an actor's list. And if you want to make a fourth list, it would be a producer's list, or maybe even just a very broad networking list of who you know and how you know them you know. Would they be willing to help you out by lending you a location for free. And if you take those, those lists, you know, you start to brainstorm ideas of what you already have and things that are going to be easier to obtain than other things. And then you start to work through that, and you can start building a script out of that, you know, you know, what I think is going on is basically cinema now, one location, cinema is sort of like the hallmark of this era. You look at movies that have come out like, you know, buried ATM saw one the green room, don't breathe, and pretty much everything by the duplex brothers and Blumhouse, it's all contained thrillers and horror. And you know that that's sort of because it's cheaper to do and it requires such a focus on the story, you know, everything, including the actors, because they really don't hire named actors for these but they for most of them, they don't, but you could still, but this story has to take the focal point of all of this, and I think that's gonna be the new calling card, by the way, is instead of a short film, you'll be showcasing like a feature length film that you've made for Cheap, it's also entertaining, and you've put onto YouTube for free as a way to build an audience and to show what you can do. And, you know, a producer is some kind of, you know, money. Person sees this, sees potential in you, contacts you about working together, you know. And then you can go from there, and then you can start getting bigger and bigger budgets, you know, as I've told the story before, my friends with Lionsgate and how they got their deal through to with Lionsgate through YouTube. And, you know, granted, things have changed since then, but the point is still the same. And you know, if you look at Fede Alvarez, who made that short film, panic attack, he put it on YouTube, gained a ton of attention, and then he, he ended up directing the new Evil Dead movie. So I wish come out in 2013 so my point being is, see, he just put that on YouTube for free, because he just, you know, I'm assuming he wanted to gain some kind of attention saying, hey, look what I could do. And that's what I think you have to do. You know, I think the days of of making sort of a film and entering into Sundance and and, you know, all that stuff, I think that's probably going to happen later for everybody, myself included, because unless you already have a absolute stellar network and a lot of ducks lined up in a row and already have been, you know, or have this great, great network, who can, you know, bestow upon a pretty good amount of money, I think instead, you got to take. One step forward. Sorry, one step backwards, to take two steps forward. And that's what I mean by all of this. You know, make a movie with your friends for 1000 bucks or even less, and put it on YouTube for free, and then say, Okay, well, now imagine what I could do if I had 10,000 50,000 100,000 a million dollars, and you can go from there, and you can keep moving up Lisa, that's what I think. But on this episode of The Dave Bullis podcast, I have two producers who are absolute rock stars at coming up with all this stuff, and we're going to talk to them today. My first guest is Aaron Kaufman, a producer, writer and director, best known for producing Machete Kills and Sin City two with Robert Rodriguez. And he also wrote and directed the film Urge, starring Pierce Brosnan and My other guest, Brian Levine is a producer and writer best known for playing with guns and bullies in blue. They've just produced the new movie flock of dudes, which is out September 30 of this year, 2016 with guests Aaron Kaufman and Brian Levine, Hey, Aaron. Hey Brian, thanks for coming on the show.

Brian Levin 6:05
Hey, how you doing?

Dave Bullis 6:07
Good thank you, Brian. Aaron and Aaron, how are you, sir?

Aaron Kaufman 6:12
Oh, doing well. Doing well. Thanks for having us.

Dave Bullis 6:15
Oh, well, you know my pleasure guys. So you know, Brian, I just wanted to, you know, I guess I'll start with you. I wanted to ask, and it's a question I ask everybody, and that question is, you know, how did you get started in the film industry?

Brian Levin 6:31
Started in the film industry. I started an online an online show in the fall of 2005 called the post show with two of the guys that I made the movie with, Bob Kester and Jason Zumwell. And yeah, we started just by putting videos online twice a week, and that kind of got us into the industry.

Dave Bullis 6:56
So basically, were you discovered by that method, or did you sort of just parlay that into something else, meaning, meaning that you did you mean, what I'm asking is that, were you discovered by somebody, or did you self fund your next project? Which what I was trying to ask,

Brian Levin 7:10
Yeah, we were through those videos. We were picked up for a company called Super Deluxe, which was an online network that was part of Adult Swim, and so they had, like, when they were starting off, they had talent scouts kind of come in the net for people like us, and that's how we were discovered.

Dave Bullis 7:34
You know, very cool. You know, I was actually talking to the co founder of the onion, Scott dickers, and that's how he was actually discovered. They, you know, they were just doing the onion as, sort of like something to do, and it's sort of, you know, morphed into something else. And then, you know, agents and managers were calling him and saying, hey, you know, what else do you have? And it'd be basically saying, you know, because you guys are actually out there doing stuff, and it was a great way to, you know, to to find out who's doing stuff. And, you know, and if they're able to get a a network and able to get an audience, imagine what they could do if they had a little money behind them. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, just to go to you now, Aaron, you know, how did you get started in the film industry?

Aaron Kaufman 8:15
Well, I'm a little older, so there was no, there was no YouTube at the time, but my first job in entertainment was working at working for Chris Blackwell, who had started Island Records and island films, and I was sort of transitioning out of the.com world, which I worked in in my early 20s, but always had wanted to work in entertainment, and got a chance to work with him as he was starting palm pictures. And it was kind of interesting time and an interesting situation, because he was such a great guy, and had this great experience having discovered Bob Marley and you too, and on the film side, you know, having put out, you know, films by Spike Lee and Pedro mandovar. And he just was this, you know, Mandarin of all, that was good as far as I was concerned. And so I got, I got a chance to really get my feet wet and touch a lot of different, different parts of the business,

Dave Bullis 9:12
No, and that's very cool, you know, you know, as we talk about YouTube, and I just wanted to mention, you know, that that's something that, you know, I've had other producers on the show, and we've also talked about that, about, you know, making your own YouTube show as sort of like a launch pad for yourself. And you know what I mean? And it's sort of about, you know, the question that comes as a lot of people have asked me through email and tweets, tweets and all that, is basically, well, how do you get the money to start your own YouTube show? So it's sort of like this cyclical question that, you know, it's always like, you know, the chicken or the egg. You know what I mean? It's always your word.

Aaron Kaufman 9:46
And there's not always a the other part of it is, if you want to become a doctor, that takes a lot of work, but there's a path that you go through. You know, you do this, you take that test, you go to this school, you take these, you know, there's a path. There really is not, and I think that's what's really frustrating to a lot of people, is you can't just tell them, Oh, this is, this is how this happened. I think if you ask Brian, you know, did he expect to become a writer by, you know, dressing up as Bob Dylan and having a video go viral, he probably would not have, probably was not, you know, part of his, his plan. So, so that's one thing, is that you have to understand it's really not about having a solid plan, but it is about creating things, you know, so if you have an opportunity to create, create, and that's, that's the strongest thing. I mean, even as a producer, you know, as things are pitched to you, or things come over, it doesn't have to be, I've seen, you know, really rudimentary stuff that you could just tell there's talent behind and that's, that's really enough. I remember, before the first Paranormal Activity came out. You know, there were agents showing that movie around to show off the directors. And, you know, it was even more rudimentary than the version that came out, but you could tell that there was, that there was significant talent there. And that's, that's sort of how I would, I would say I would worry a little less about having money to polish everything off and worry more about just making something that's in gear.

Dave Bullis 11:23
Yeah, it's very good advice, Aaron, you know, just as a quick side note, you know, forever for my listeners who have listened to the some of the past episodes, I actually shot my own TV pilot, and I was going to actually put it up on YouTube. And then I was talked out of it by an agent, and he said, don't ever put it he's like, No, don't put it on YouTube. He goes, let's just, you know, shop this thing around. And I didn't sign with that agent, by the way, but not that he really, but, you know, he was giving me advice at the time, and we ended up, I now, I'm still toying with the idea of putting it up on YouTube, just because, you know, I basically, it cost me a hell of a lot more money than I thought it would, but you could tell that there was a lot of time and effort put into the production, the set design, everything, you know, and I hate for it to just sit on a hard drive. You know what I mean?

Aaron Kaufman 12:17
Of course, I would say, if it's something you're proud of, definitely put it out. You know, there's, there's something to what he was saying, as far as being selective and and once you put something out there, then it's out there. So every time someone says, you know, Hey, we should hire this guy. Know that that is going to get looked at, as long as you're fine with that, and you you like it enough to to be proud of it, to put it up there, to absolutely do that. But, but do know that you should be somewhat selective, because whatever, whatever is out there, is is out there, you know, forever.

Dave Bullis 12:40
Yeah, very true, you know. And as we talk about creating, I want to actually mention, you know, Aaron, you have a movie out. Urge, yes, and you know, you, you actually, you know, wrote and directed, and I think you also produced. Urged, and I wanted to ask, you know, what was the impetus for you to start, you know, start writing and directing your own script.

Aaron Kaufman 13:00
Well, urge, actually, I wrote with Jason Zumwalt, who also wrote on with with Brian. That's I met Jason with Brian on flock of dudes. They were, he was part of the post show. And then I ended up doing early, early drafts with with Jason, which really helped it to come together. But then ultimately wrote the last thing is two drafts with Jerry Stahl. We'd written permanent midnight so there were I did a lot of collaborators on this script, but I'd always wanted to direct, and one of my reasons for taking the job with Robert Rodriguez in Austin in the first place was to learn production at that level. You know, I had been producing for quite a while, but there was no comparison to the experience I got working down a troublemaker where, you know, we were making a movie every nine months, you know. And from the just in the time I was there, you know, we, we had done two machete films, the sequel to Sin City spike, it's for and be and Robert had produced the the predators remake with with Adrian Brody. So you know, it was non stop production, and that that helped me to really build up those chops. But once we have finished Sin City, which was a really large undertaking, it was really more a matter of trying to figure out what I wanted to to direct and and putting it together after that.

Dave Bullis 14:22
So I want to ask you, you mentioned working with Robert Rodriguez Aaron. I wanted to ask, you know, what are some of the things that you learn from him in terms of either writing, production, directing, I mean, because I admit I'm going to geek out here, Aaron. He's a huge idol of mine, and, I mean, I am just, you know, I would love the opportunity to talk to him, and I'm always interested everyone that could everyone who has worked with him, you know, I've had his cousin on Alvaro Rodriguez little road machete. And you know, we were talking, I mean, I could, you know, we were just geeking out about movies and everything else, but I wanted, but you know that that's going to ask you, Aaron, is, you know, what are some of the things that you learned from from working with Robert Rodriguez?

Aaron Kaufman 14:59
Well, a lot of it is probably its own, its own dedicated show, because I think people don't realize he has a he has sort of a whole theory of production, which is somewhat different than how everybody does things. So it's like a, you know, it's almost like a Master's class that you get from from him. But some of the core tenets are the fact that, you know, first and foremost, he likes to work, he likes to produce, and he produces a lot, and that, in itself, creates a different environment. And I would say that there's an analog to people that are looking to put stuff on on YouTube, is, you know, the way that you get great is by producing quite a lot. You know, you're shooting all the time. You're getting acclimated to, you know, to what you could do, what's possible. And that really helps the confidence you get from knowing, looking at a problem, and knowing, oh, I know how to, how to handle this. That's, that's really important. And he, he did that. I mean, he was making shorts, he, you know, before he made mariachi, he kind of approached mariachi in a pretty methodical way, in the sense of, you know, he was getting ready for it like a marathon runner. So that's, you know, the just producing and producing a lot, I think, is one two. He also didn't really buy into the whole the mechanism of, all, you know, if there were, there was a better idea, if there was a way to do something more simply. He was all for that, you know. And he also, if you look at him and Robert, Robert and Quentin, who are very good friends and came up together, they both have this sort of method, you know, this kind of thing that they live by, which is, you know, they really are focused on what's what's going to be amazing, what's going to be memorable by an audience, and they really try to minimize everything that isn't. So you know, anything that's that's not, you know, going to be memorable or going to be enjoyed by an audience. They really try to cut a lot of that stuff out of their movies. And that's why they're pretty lean and mean.

Dave Bullis 16:55
Usually, yeah, you know, I'm always fascinated. But how quickly, you know, Robert can get a movie together. And, you know, because, I mean, I know he, you know, he wants to make his, you know, produce his own stuff. And, you know, there's something Robert once said about, you have 20 bad movies in you, and basically get them out of you as quickly as you can. And that's why he made all those short films, you know, early on in his in his life, where it was just, you know, he casted his friends and family, and, you know, just made videos like that. And, you know, just posted them. I think, you know he, I think me what couple of his DVDs, he posted a few of the shorts on the DVD extras. But, you know, I wanted to ask you, Brian, when you were, you know, you know, coming up, did you start, you know, you know, did you do things like that? You know me, either in high school or in college? Did you actually make your own movies and, and just sort of, you know, like, make a ton of, like, really short movies or and, and just try to get, you know, a ton of mistakes out of the way.

Brian Levin 17:50
Yeah, I made, I did some short films and wrote some short films in in high school, in college, but, um, I went to graduate school for a couple of years for screenwriting, and I think that's kind of where I really just had, like, a high volume of output and really learned the craft that way.

Dave Bullis 18:15
Yeah, yeah. And just like Aaron said, I think the best way to to actually learn is by doing. And you know that that's, you know, even other filmmakers have had on this podcast have even said, you know, that's what they did. They literally just went, took a camera out in their backyard, you know, and just started making stuff. And, you know, one guy taught himself to edit by just taking a camera out to his local park and basically just talk, just, you know, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get some video, some footage of the ship coming in. I'm gonna get some footage of these birds. I'm gonna get footage of this. He wasn't focused on telling a story as much as he was just getting used to what's, you know, operating a camera, getting used to getting the right footage. You know what I mean, like getting used to editing all that stuff.

Aaron Kaufman 18:56
It's also, I think writing is the is the writing is probably the biggest example of that, right? Because it's so terrifying to write. And the real antidote, you know, to to writing, or to be able to write, is more right, you know. So the the you have to start getting comfortable with, you know, chopping the task down into smaller bites and saying, okay, you know what? I'm going to write this character, I'm going to write this line, I'm gonna write something that you can do and complete and feel good about to move on, because it is daunting. But the truth is, the only way you get better is by doing.

Dave Bullis 19:31
Yeah, very true. And, you know, I want to talk to, you know. So, you know, Aaron, as you actually making urge. You know, what are some of the things that you took away? I mean, you know, urge looks amazing. It starts Pierce. Brosnan, you know, I've, you know, heard amazing things about working with Pierce, and I wanted to ask, you know, what are some of the things that you learned while making urge?

Aaron Kaufman 19:51
I mean, tons. Pierce is great. I had worked with him once before on a movie called The Greatest, and had met him then, and was just very surprise expectation meeting him, but he actually is just a super decent a, really genuine guy. And that movie that I had produced was there was a first time director on that movie, and he was very kind and sort of very open to working with her, which is not something that you know every actor feels comfortable with. You know, sometimes that's a little scary for an actor to work with, somebody who's who's a first time filmmaker. I had produced, you know, films for 15 years, but still stepping behind the camera as a director for the first time, you're still a first time director, no matter, no matter what. So I think the part of, part of approaching pierce the first, first point was the fact that I knew what kind of guy he was, and that, you know, he would come and give, give us all, not, you know, undaunted by the fact that this was my first as a director, and then I learned with him that, you know, basically get someone as good as Pierce to read your dialog, because it makes You sound like a much better writer, if you, if you do that, because he, you know, just comes on stage and you're expecting one thing, and he just did something so much better every single take. And so that was, that was great, but you have to really, you know, learn to communicate. I think that's for directing. That's that is the biggest. And it may sound cliche, but it really is true. You know, what ends up happening in on a film set is directors get so and I've seen this as a producer with first time filmmakers, where filmmakers get so overwhelmed because they're being asked a million questions, and a lot of those questions they actually don't know the answers to, and they feel like they should, and that they start to break down, and they start to just get nervous, and a lot of times they'll close down, and instead of giving more information, which is what they really need to do, they give less. And that's the really, the biggest and the most fundamental lesson that I learned, and I would certainly talk with other other filmmakers as as I produce them, to let them know, you know is that all these people want is to do the best job they can do. So you have to give them the tools to do it. So if they're asking you, you know, this scene calls for a gun. What kind of gun do you want? And you actually don't know, because you haven't thought about it, that's okay. You can tell them, I don't know. Let me think about it, and that'll be better than, you know, trying to just freeze up or or not communicate.

Dave Bullis 22:23
You know, that's a very good point. Aaron. You know one you know one guy I've always heard who knows pretty much every answer that is asked to him is Tarantino. You know, some people I know that have worked with him have said that he already, pretty much has anticipated all these questions. Or his vision is either so deep that he already knows exactly what he wants, how it needs to look all that stuff, and I think that really comes through in his movies.

Aaron Kaufman 22:47
I know him, Quentin. I've never actually been on set with him, but I know him. I would, I would definitely believe that he knows everything, just just because he takes so much time and so much care, and he really almost rates his movies, like novels, that by the time he gets on set, I would imagine that he just really, really knows, but, but even, even then, you know there, then when you and as you do this, more and more, you realize that you're writing, that you're thinking about production in a way once you've directed the changes you're writing, because now You're writing you're thinking of like on the day, okay, you know, I'm putting a gun in this guy's hand. What kind of gun is it going to be? Because, you know, you're going to ask and ask that question, you know, if it's if you're describing drapes, the idea of, what color are those, or what texture are those, or are those things? When you're first writing and you haven't directed before, a lot of times it's just, oh, there's drapes, or there's this, or there's a gun. And, you know, you're, you're moving on to the next thing without forcing yourself to really think through I think that whether it's Quentin or some of the other, you know, some other great directors that really like Paul Thomas Anderson, or anybody who create like a whole world, I think it's because they've thought through all that, all that detail, and they've, they've made that feel real, which, which helps in moving.

Dave Bullis 24:00
Yeah, yeah. I really felt that during Wes Anderson's Grand Budapest Hotel, because I even went out afterwards and I bought the book about the artwork of the film. And, I mean, you could just tell the layer of planning and creativity in that film. I mean, because every shot looks, literally looks like a painting.

Aaron Kaufman 24:17
Yeah, no, everyone's composed. And the, I mean, Wes is obviously known for, for that level of almost like fetishistic detail. He also works with some of the best people in the world and and he cares what I like about Wes, though, is that there are people that can get as really overcome with the detail and forget to tell a story, you know, or forget to really build characters. And he seems to be one of the few people that can kind of do all of those things. You know, these films are so well composed, well so well designed, and yet they always seem to have a heart to them that that's a really hard balance to to make. And I think he does that very well.

Dave Bullis 24:53
Yeah, I completely concur. And you know, you know, as we talk about, you know, making and, you know, writing films. Yeah. And I wanted to, you know, talk about, you know, your the film that both of you produced, flock of dudes. Now, Brian, you also co wrote the movie, if, if I'm correct, and, and you both produced the film. So, Brian, I wanted to ask, you know, when you know, what was the impetus for writing, you know, flock of dudes. Did, you know? Did was there any sort of, you know, event? Did you always have this idea, you know, I you know, so what was the, you know, impetus of creating flock of dudes?

Brian Levin 25:26
Yeah, that story just kind of came out organically from hanging out in New York with Bob and Jason. And we were, I guess, you know, in our late 20s, mid to late, mid to late 20s, and everybody was hanging out. And whenever we go out, all the other kind of friends of ours would join us. And eventually there would be a dozen, you know, guys going from bar to bar in New York. And we started joking around that we have to just break up with all these guys. We can get rid of them so we're not traveling around in a flock of dudes, and that kind of, that joke kind of became the movie.

Dave Bullis 26:06
So when you actually, you know, sat down Brian to write the film was there, you know, do you subscribe to sort of any method to writing? Meaning, do you subscribe to save the cat? Do you sort of, or are you more of, like a, you know, a mini movie method guy or do you just, you know, sort of just write,

Brian Levin 26:26
Well, to be honest, it depends on what kind of movie I'm writing. So, you know, some things are more structured in a conventional react way, and some of them are more, kind of a looser, less structured form. It just depends on the movie, really.

Dave Bullis 26:46
So with flock of dudes, when you sat down to write, you know, you since it was based, you know, pretty much on your own experiences, you know, did it sort of just flow out of you? Did you already know, like, hey, look, I know I want this to happen. I know by the end of the movie I want this to happen. Was it, was it something like that?

Brian Levin 27:02
I think we had a couple kind of big kind of plot points, like the guys breaking up with each other and things of that nature. But really, I mean, I think at least with the group of people writing together, with three of us writing, it was just about sitting, sitting down, and figuring out, hey, you know, what are some interesting and funny things and characters, and then ultimately, how can we kind of string this together into into a story that makes sense and has, you know, a solid enough structure that it kind of fits into the realm of a Commercial movie, right?

Dave Bullis 27:41
You know, because I've had the writers of broken lizard on, and that's something they were talking about as well, was that, you know, they would get together, you know, brainstorm an idea, and they wanted to make sure that it was, there was actually a story there, you know what I mean. And they wanted to make sure that, you know, they would put that, that the story and the structure would be like the bones, and then, like, all the jokes and everything would sort of be like the the muscle and the skin, so to speak. Yeah.

Dave Bullis 28:07
So, so, you know, Brian, I want to ask, you know, how many drafts did you go through flock of dudes before you finally said, You know what this is? This is the draft is ready to shoot

Brian Levin 28:17
Between the very beginning? Well, flock of dudes is a long process. It had been optioned by a studio and came back to us, and we had multiple drafts at every step of the way, but I would say probably overall, we project 30 drafts and then,

Aaron Kaufman 28:34
Wow, 30 choice that's mine, is actually, actually funny, because they had been through sort of a studio development process. And so I came along after that, and I remember sitting with them, working on the script, and no matter what you mentioned, they would say, oh yeah. The like, this producer had suggested that before, or the studio wanted that to the extent where you're like, What if all these, you know, characters were chickens instead of people, they would be like, well, actually, you know, the studio had, the studio had mentioned that that might be an idea, and so there was no sense how many permutations had been thrown at them. But I think it kept coming back to the original story, which was this real relationship between these guys. And what I always liked about it was that it was a fun comedy with lots of big laughs in it, but at the core, it still felt real, and it still felt like it was rooted in, you know, these real relationships. And I think that made it a lot a lot more interesting for me.

Brian Levin 29:34
And that's one thing that I think Aaron did very well, which we have encountered from time to time, but it's not all that common, which is he really recognized the core of the story, which is kind of, essentially, kind of the emotional journey of the lead character. And he helped us really, kind of protect that and make sure any you know, encourage us to deliver on that. You know, stories are so in the end, the story is so really fragile that there are a lot of ways that it can go sideways if you're not kind of protecting what's important about it.

Dave Bullis 30:26
You know, that's very true. And you know, this is something I've learned too, not from my own experience, but also from doing this podcast. Is whenever a writer, director, gets a producer, a piece, the singular sort of bonding elements to all good relationships. Has always been that the producer sees that, that that core of that script, and he and he or she actually really, really digs that idea. You know what? I mean. They really understand one another and that, and that's true. So when the producer goes out and is talking to, you know, investors or or going to distribute, distributors that they can, you know, use that in the pitch, and use that as the selling point. But also, you know what I mean, like, so that way, there it's not that sort of, what we're talking about four before, with all the different permeations where it's like, well, what if they were chickens? What if they were that? You know what I mean? Yeah, so, you know, I wanted to talk about, you know, since we're talking about producing, I wanted to ask you guys, you know, you know, producing, you know, flock of dudes. You know, both of you produce this. And I wanted to ask, you know, what were some of the biggest challenges in producing something like this?

Aaron Kaufman 31:33
I'm sorry, what's the question,

Dave Bullis 31:36
What was some of the biggest challenges in producing flock of dudes?

Aaron Kaufman 31:39
I mean, I think flock of dudes. You're you're trying. There's a couple of things. One, you're trying to make a comedy in the independent space, which, you know, the independent space is not necessarily that welcoming of this kind of film. You know, if you look at what really gets made in the indie space, it's, it's dedicated toward, you know, what we'll show it, Sundance, what will show at Toronto. You don't really see sort of live old comedies at those at those festivals, and we were really, at the end of the day trying to make a commercial comedy that would be enjoyed, you know, sort of outside of the in the space. That was sort of one challenge, because you're the people that are there, the systems that's there to help you and assist you through the process. There doesn't really exist, you know, this is a kind of movie that would get made by a new line, and we were trying to make it look and feel and and act like one of those movies, which is great, except that you're really on your own because you're there's just not the sort of in sport in the indie world for that. You know, you don't have big festivals that want those kind of comedies. So that's one two. You know, we're trying to make something that looks like a bigger budget movie on on less, less, less of a budget, on smaller budget. One of the things that we had lucked out on is the the post show guys had some great relationships in the comedy world. And we were able to populate the the film with with with guys that we people really liked. And then once that started to move, then other people started to come on board. You know, it's like Hilary Duff and Jamie Chung and, you know, even really owner were joining at that point, because we had Chris Delia and Brett Gelman and Kamala and Johnny and all these other people that were really coming up. And this movie's been we made a while ago. So I would, I would say, casting wise, we look like geniuses, because now everybody who's in the film has kind of blown up and become huge. But that was the, those are the kind of one two issues, and then you know, you're dealing with the Bob castron, who directed it, who's a first time as a as a director. So you're dealing with those are not specific to Bob, but but specific to anyone who's who's making their their first film.

Dave Bullis 33:56
So you know, that's actually another person question I had was, you know, with a cast like that. You know how? You know, because they're all doing so many things. You know, Hannah Simone, she's on New Girl, you know, you have Eric Andre. You have hilly Duff. You know, what was, what was some of the biggest logistic issues, you know, just getting all the all these actors together, was there any logistic issues?

Aaron Kaufman 34:17
There was, I mean, there was a lot of just the casting of it, you know, we we ended up, normally in a film, as a producer, I'm casting directly three or four roles, you know, that are your sort of bigger roles, and then working with a casting director to to come up with ideas for everybody else. Here, we really kind of cast down almost the entire, the entire movie. So other than background, there are no like day players on the movie. Everybody are, you know, everybody in the film is, is somebody great, not that, not that. Day players can't be great. But you know, these are every, every single role is, is populated by, by somebody who we loved and was really great. So you have, you know, Jeff Ross in, in a scene, you have Kellen Coleman. You have to. With the Simons from Veep in a really funny scene. So there's the movie kind of just keeps going and going. And for producing wise, we were really excited every day, almost, because it was like every day we got to to work with somebody new and that we admired, Hannibal Barris. And, you know, just, it just went on and on. So it was that made it pretty, pretty fun. But getting, you know, doing that was was done as a concerted effort, because it was a matter of, how do we make this movie stand out? How do we make this movie look special? And that was one of those, was one of our big ways of doing it.

Dave Bullis 35:35
You know, Aaron you mentioned that this was Bob Castro's, you know, directorial debut. You know, when investors were looking at the movie, did they ever, you know, maybe question, you know, should we, you know, is Bob gonna be able to handle this? I don't mean it the way it sounds, by the way. I just mean that, you know, is there ever a, you know, a sort of an issue that someone would raise? We're saying like, Well, hey, you know, you know, is there any, is there anybody else? You know what I mean? I don't mean that the way it sounds,

Aaron Kaufman 36:05
Not at all. No. And in fact, it's exactly what happens. I mean, having nothing to do with Bob, specifically, just the moment you say first time filmmaker to a an investor, it's you know that it's not what they want to hear. No one, no one ever grabs you and says, Oh, great. That's exactly what I wanted. First time director to to lavish my money on. And look, the same thing went for me, because after flock of dudes, I directed urge. And I thought, you know, having been in film for so long, and having worked on, you know, big movies like, like Sin City, that you know, being a first time director would not be as much of a hindrance, but it still is, you know, and really what it comes down to, and I understand it a little bit better now, is that before you direct, you really have no idea what kind of director you're going to be. You could hope. You can think, you can prepare. You can learn. You can watch movies, you can take classes. You can learn theory. All of these things are what you should do, which is great, but none of them really prepare you for what it's actually like. And I've seen it. I've seen people that get behind the camera and they just freeze and it's not for them. And I've seen people get behind it who you weren't necessarily thinking, we're going to be great, and they thrive so that, because that's a random that's why I think people get really nervous about it, is because they just there's nothing, there's nothing to repair. You're essentially trusting a producer who says, Yes, this person can do this, this job. So you have to overcome that. A lot of ways we overcame that. Was the, you know, who we had on to produce the movie, who we brought on cast wise to to really offset students,

Dave Bullis 37:39
Yeah, you know, and I'm glad that you because that's what I was trying to say, Aaron, was that basically, you know, even when you know, in my own experience, when you know, you put something together, like a pitch packet and you go to investors, you know, that's not something they want to hear a first time director, you know what I mean. Because, you know, you know, they sort of, they want to know who, and I forget who I was saying this to, but that's sort of what the new thing is, where it's like, it's like, even for, you know, for any independent film now, it's like we want a name director, a named producer, a named writer, even, you know, and the cast all has to be sellable. So, you know, get us people, you know what I mean. And it's sort of putting this whole package deal together, where every so it's sort of like you're stacking the deck. So when you go to producers, or, I'm sorry, when you go to investors, that you can say, Look, you know, we're pretty much stacking the deck in your favor, because everyone here is willing to work for a little less, maybe, or, you know, is willing to work on this, on this passion project, you're 100% right.

Aaron Kaufman 38:33
And I, for me, it makes it a lot less fun than it used to be. I mean, you always have to put a package together, but now in order to get something off the ground. You have to, you know, used to be okay, we have one major star who wants to make this movie, and it's a smaller movie. Let's go now. It's like, okay, well, the first and second lead and third and maybe fourth, and we need to name director and and then all of a sudden, in my mind, you're taking a lot of what's special about indie film in the first place. You know, I grew up in the 90s, and, you know, that's when I think New York indie film was really kind of at its height. And you had great, you know, you had, you know, kids, and you had, you know, all these great, you know, simple men and all these other great, great movies that were coming out. And you had Jim jar mission. And those guys were not making those movies thinking that they needed five main stars to to make those movies, and I don't know that their films would have been as special if they did so. I do think I understand it, because I understand the financing side of things, and I understand why they're they're looking for that. But I would venture to say that the most successful independent films are the ones that where, you know, artistry is really at the at the forefront.

Dave Bullis 39:43
You know, I had on Chris J who from Army a freshman, and he actually made a movie called the bet. And what they did was they actually crowdfunded a little bit of money and actually took that money sort of as like a seed investment. And they actually went out to us to find, you know, more money through actual investors. And because that's that they actually had to, you know, basically that's sort of like the new model, as he was saying, you know, mean, because that's that way he could, you know, use that to go out and fly to meet these people, or, or what have you have these meetings. Or, you know, and you know that they finally got the money, and then they, you know, if you watch the bet, you know, has, like, Jake the Snake, Roberts has ready, ready Piper in it. You know what? I mean, like those, we were just saying, they're sprinkled throughout the whole movie, yeah.

Aaron Kaufman 40:38
I mean, I personally don't really know how the crowdsourcing stuff works. I'm interested in it, you know, seeing some good stuff happen from it. But, yeah, I mean, a lot of filmmaking is about momentum, and so anything that you can use to get momentum going. So if, you know, a lot of times we would, I would raise, you know, seed money, or we raise development money for a film. If you could do that through crowdsourcing to give that would give you the momentum that you need, and once you have the momentum, then people start to pay attention. If you say, Look, we're going to make this movie maybe, or we're going to make this movie in October. It's very different. It's very different for agents, and it's very different forecast to wrap their head around trying to come on board.

Dave Bullis 41:17
You know, Aaron, if you ever have any questions about crowdfunding. I will be more than happy to answer any questions you may have, because I have done, I've done it a number of times. I've helped other filmmakers raise budgets, all that good stuff. So I even wrote a couple articles about it, which was actually one of them, is on any film hustle with Alex Ferrari, who you with, whom you were on the podcast I did, yeah, so, it was on his side. So it's, you know, it's, it's, yeah. So if you ever have any questions, please let me know. Great. So you know, guys, I had some fan questions come in. Would you mind answering a few? No, sounds great. My first question, she said, my first question comes in from the good people podcast reviews, which is at the hippo critics, as the film was mentioned on WTF podcast with Mark Maron as being delayed, what issues did you encounter?

Aaron Kaufman 42:09
Oh, well, what was can you read the question? I'm sorry, though, sure.

Dave Bullis 42:13
No problem, as the film was mentioned on WTF pod podcast with Mark Maron as being delayed, what issues did you encounter?

Aaron Kaufman 42:21
Yeah, we, I think it was, he was talking to Eric Andre the film itself. You know, we put together, and it was put together a fairly small, small budget. And then we were, we cut the film. I was, like, I said I was directing urge, and was able to take, then, kind of right before that, come back and work with Bob on another cut. And then, really it was just the the vagaries of the current indie space, you know, we were looking for, we weren't looking to go, you know, we were very proud of the film, and we were looking for the right partner for it. And so we had been approached by a bunch, but their ideas for bringing it out just were not aggressive enough, and then we were lucky enough to connect with stars who have been great to us and and have have a really great idea for bringing the movie out and doing it theatrically, as well as as DOD and then, and then a partner with Hulu, so The movie will get a much broader imprimatur than than it would have. And I think holding out for the right situation was was the best idea. Then after that, they had a schedule of when, you know what, when the movie would fit in the queue, which took some time as well. But yeah, I think it's been something because I think a lot of the cast and myself included, were really happy and proud of the film, and really liked it, wanted to see it come out, and in the waiting has been a little bit of a bummer, but we've reached out now to cast, and they're all coming back on board to to help promote it now, which has been great,

Dave Bullis 43:55
You know, and that there's another question that came in, which actually ties in to what we're just talking about, is, You know, do you find it harder to release a film now because the marketplace has gotten a little bit more crowded?

Aaron Kaufman 44:13
Yeah, I think, I think so. I but I don't, I don't know that it's as crowded as it is. There are other options, you know, I think it's, it's, you saw gluts in the in the independent film world a few times, right? I think 2006 seven was probably one that I can remember specifically, because it was like a lot. There were a lot of good movies that came out, and it was we were dealing with a flush of money that hit the independent market, mostly from from hedge funds, and it was just creating too much product that couldn't be absorbed. Now, I don't know if it's that. I don't know if that's the issue. I think the issue is just, what are our behaviors? I think our behaviors have changed, which is in some ways scarier, because I think our behaviors used to be, you know, great. It's Friday night. I'm going to go on a date. Let's go to let's go watch a movie. Now. You literally have like, you know, people say things like, let's Netflix and chill, right, which is a completely different sort of mindset. And I think that's pervasive. So I think people now are looking for more stuff that they can binge watch, more stuff that they can see. I think people are enjoying watching, you know, something that's more in depth, like 10 episodes of Narcos. And so I think that the amount of of time people want to spend in the theater is less, and so therefore it's got to be more special. The corollary is that you have the studios and that are putting movies out there that know that the only way to really get people's attention is to spend quite a lot of money. And so the amount of films that they're willing to make that kind of risk on is really gone, you know. So what you're seeing less and less of are what I kind of grew up understanding, which was like that platform release, where you're putting it on five screens, is doing well. You're putting it on 10, you're putting it on 50. You're putting it on 100 you know, you whip you're making a way to 1000 you're seeing that happen less and less. So you either have big movies like, you know, Marvel films, that come out in 4000 screens, or you're seeing, you know, something come out on two screens and then go to to VOD. It's the world has has changed, and that's made it more and more difficult for producers.

Dave Bullis 46:21
Yeah, that's like, I've noticed as well, is that, you know, it is really, you know, you sort of have to make those, those those projections, right? You sort of, that's why we were talking about sort of stacking the deck in our favor. And you have to make those projections that, you know, this is how you know, if we could sell it on VOD, if we can sell it through our website, if we can get on iTunes, get an aggregator all that stuff.

Aaron Kaufman 46:41
Well, yeah, but the one thing I would, I would say, and I would reinforce, is one of, you know, indie film, in some ways, hurt itself. Going back to that time, 2006 7, 8, there were a lot of there was a lot of money that was flush. And instead of producers saying, Okay, let's find the right movies, people were grabbing projects that had been on shelves for years and saying, Well, let's make this and so there was great stuff that came out of that time, but there was also a ton of stuff that was either not good or just wasn't yet ready to be put out there. So that's the other thing is for now, you have multiple ways of getting to people. And even you know, having someone see your movie on Netflix is not the worst thing in the world. But what are you doing when they do find you? Are you doing anything new and interesting? Because that's what I think people will gravitate towards, you know, if it's French, you know, mini series, but if it's amazing, people are finding it on Netflix. I think that's a good thing, but I think that puts the onus on the filmmaker to not just make a movie, but to make something that's that's has a reason for being today.

Dave Bullis 47:46
Yeah, that's a good point. Aaron, you know. And actually, I have one final question that came in, and basically it is, you know, what would you recommend for a first time producer making a film?

Aaron Kaufman 47:57
Run, run away. I you know the best answer. The more that you know, the more you have one thing. You have to work harder than anybody else, and you have to get that out there. You people need to see that you're willing to be, you know, as aggressive, more aggressive than anybody else, because momentum is really what makes a movie. People look at you when you have a script and you're trying to pedal a script around town, you have a script, and that's it may be great. It may not be, but that's why they view you. If you have a movie, meaning you have this thing up and running, you guys are going to go on October 12, that it changes things that's completely creates a new dynamic. And so the point at which, as a producer, your goal is not to get a script funded by somebody, because that happens so infrequently. What you have to do is start adding the elements, right? So you have to look at, who do I know? Who can I get to, who can help me? And you have to not be afraid to go and try to bring those people on board. And so you have to think of it almost like you're keeping plates in the air, you know, spinning at all times you're running to, you know, if you're going to not direct it, you got to find the director for it. If you're if you don't know a name director, you don't have somebody who you can bring on, who adds value, per se, find the most talented person you can find that you can get behind you can show look. This movie is not just a great movie, but I'm going to bring this incredible piece of talent to the to the world, and then as you're starting to talk to to talent, you're now you have a great script with a really impressive filmmaker, and don't you want to be a part of this? And so you're always running the table, and you kind of always have to do these things simultaneously. It's a lot of work. And I think people that have an impulse to make a film sometimes don't always understand that the amount of work and sort of how grueling it it can be, you can't just approach it sequentially, where I'm going to bring a script to somebody, he's going to give me a bag of money, I'm then going to go spend that money on great talent, and then we're going to make a genius movie. and then go collect, you know, Academy Awards. It just doesn't really work that way. It really is a game of trying to build momentum, and the more you build, the better your movie can, can attract talent and and hopefully, the better, better movie you'll be able to make.

Dave Bullis 50:21
You know, there's a piece of producing advice that someone once gave me, and basically, all the resources come down to time and money. Either you need more time or you need more money. You but they, they said you can spend, you could spend time to get more money, but you can't spend money to get more time.

Aaron Kaufman 50:39
Sort of, it's true. I mean, I've been on, you know, I've seen, I've seen that before, where, you know, you think you have all the money in the world, and so therefore that should equal better movie. And it doesn't always, you know. So I think that no matter where you are, and that was a lesson I learned working with Robert Rodriguez, was he wasn't always looking at like, how much money could I possibly get to make this movie? Quite the contrary, he would, if he could get $40 million to make a spike, it's really he'd make that movie for 30 because he was always trying to, you know, outsmart the production, try to, you know, deal with less. And also, in that scenario, he would always have a little bit more autonomy, because the the onus was was far less than if he had made it for, you know, $50 million so money doesn't always buy quality. If it did, then, you know, every, you know, every big Warner Brothers and Fox movie would be amazing. But it's not that said on the indie front, you know, I think that you're compete. You're still competing, in a way, with those larger movies. And so you have to invest in something else. You don't have CG, you don't have, you know, the these huge implementations, but what you do can have is style, and what you can have is story and great character and something that's going to pop. And so you could put a movie like Black Swan into the same mix as, you know, the Avengers, and it will do well, because it's different enough, and it's, it's engaging enough,

Dave Bullis 52:08
Yeah, yeah. And that's a really good point. And, you know, Aaron, just to sort of, you know, add one final thought to that, you know, as we talk about, you know, making, you know, films and producing our first films, one popular method, you know, I've heard from a lot of guests that I've on this podcast, and even from reading books, particularly Stu makovits is book. Basically, it's creating that Rodriguez list, you know, and it's basically, you know, creating that, you know, find out what you have access to, and then you build a script around that. So if you know what I mean, if you have grandma's house and you can use the basement shoot something in that basement, if you have an old Studebaker that's sitting somewhere, try to find a way to put down the script as well.

Aaron Kaufman 52:48
For sure, yeah, and I think I would extend that to include relationships as well. You know, who do you know? Who you who you have access to, who can help you, who can introduce you to this person or that person you know, and and do that, but, but more importantly, you know, at the end of the day, piece, the piece that people forget sometimes, is, are you, do you have something you're passionate about? Do you have a movie that you really want to tell you know, that you you know, because a lot of this stuff is details, a lot of this stuff is, you know, the how, and I think you got to figure out the why. And that's what hurts a lot of movies, is you have the how, like, oh, I wanted to make a movie and I figured out how to do it. That's great, and I appreciate that. But at the same time, you really need to start from the why, which is, I have this piece of material that is going to be so funny or it's so interesting or so engaging that, you know, I have to get it out there, and that that's generally a better place to start,

Dave Bullis 53:45
Yeah, you know. And that's a great point, Aaron, and it is about who you know, right? This whole, this whole industry is about relationships, and it is always about, you know, who you know, right? You know guys. We've been talking for about, you know, 49 minutes now, you know. So in closing, is there anything that we didn't talk about that you may wanted to discuss, or sort of any sort of final thoughts that you'd like to add to this conversation? Just sort of put a period at the end of this whole thing.

Aaron Kaufman 54:10
I know Brian will wait on waiting on the election reprint.

Brian Levin 54:14
No, for sure. I've been, you know, studying up, and I think I've got it all figured out. Who's gonna win it, everything. Now I would say kind of big picture is a little bit what you what we've all been circling around, which is, there is the movie you have in your mind, which is in your imagination, there is the reality of life. You have to deal with the reality while I'm trying to execute this vision. So that's across the board, whether you're dealing with resources, money, actors, locations, anything you know, don't be an artist who has an aversion to reality. This. Is not going to help you make a movie. You'll, you'll do what you do, but you're not going to make a movie. So, you know, even though it's an unpleasant reality, often Better that than than not. That's kind of my that's what I've kind of learned, essentially,

Dave Bullis 55:18
Yeah, and you're right, Brian, you know that that is something, you know, you know i Yeah, you know. I sometimes think, you know, you sort of, you have to pick and choose battles, right? You know what I mean. You can pick and choose battles as long as you win the war, type of, you know, you know what I mean, yeah. So, So Aaron, is there any sort of final thoughts that you have the short period as whole conversation?

Aaron Kaufman 55:41
That flock of dudes comes out on September 30 and comes out in theaters and on on iTunes. We're really we're really happy with the movie, and I hope everybody enjoys it,

Dave Bullis 55:54
And everyone I will link to flock of dudes in the show notes. I will link to all the good stuff about the movie, I will into everything we talked about Brian, where people find you out online.

Brian Levin 56:09
The website for me and the guys is thepoachshow.com and you can find some sketches that we had done kind of leading up to flock of dudes. And also just some other information about us.

Dave Bullis 56:20
Cool. Are you on Twitter or Facebook or anything?

Brian Levin 56:23
I'm on Facebook. I'm not on Twitter, so,

Dave Bullis 56:28
Okay, cool. And Aaron, where we will find you out on?

Aaron Kaufman 56:30
I'm on Twitter at a_kaufman, K, A, U, F, M, A, N on Twitter, and I think I'm Aaron K Kaufman on Instagram.

Dave Bullis 56:41
Cool! And I will link to that in the show notes as well. Aaron Brian, I want to say thank you very much for coming on. I wish you the best with flock of dudes. Guys. I look forward to seeing flock of dudes or whatever next. Oh, my pleasure. Guys, thank you. Wish you the best. All right. Thanks, my pleasure. Bye. Take care, guys.