There is a romantic version of screenwriting that refuses to die. A writer sits alone, waits for inspiration to arrive, and suddenly brilliant pages pour effortlessly from somewhere beyond the conscious mind. It’s a wonderful image. It’s also very different from the practical reality described by Ron Peters, a screenwriter, story analyst, and editor whose experiences include working on projects such as Defiance, The Wolf of Wall Street, Fury, and Twin Peaks. For Ron, becoming a better writer isn’t primarily about waiting for inspiration. It’s about sitting down, putting in the hours, and doing the work whether you feel inspired or not.
Ron started creating stories remarkably young. His mother would bring home beautiful hardbound journals, which he happily filled with drawings and stories without realizing how expensive they were. Later, using a digital camera capable of recording only fifteen seconds of video at a time, he and his brother started making tiny home movies. By high school, Ron was writing and directing larger projects, finding investors, and even convincing his school to allow him time away from classes to make a movie. His second film eventually attracted the attention of director Ed Zwick, whose support helped open the door for Ron to work on Defiance. From those early experiments, filmmaking became less of a distant dream and more of a craft he could build through experience.
When Ron approaches a screenplay, however, he doesn’t immediately attack it with structural theories and a red pen. His first goal is surprisingly simple: experience the movie. He reads from the first page to the last and asks whether he would actually enjoy watching this film in a theater. Only afterward does he begin breaking down the structure and examining the characters. Interestingly, although character comes second in that analytical process, Ron believes character may ultimately be more important. A screenplay can have excellent structure, but if audiences don’t care about the people inhabiting that structure, the result can still feel empty. Structure might hold the building together, but character gives us a reason to walk inside.
That becomes especially important when writing antagonists. Ron argues that writers need to enter the perspective of every character, even characters they dislike. A villain rarely experiences himself as the villain. He has motivations, desires, fears, and justifications that make sense within his own worldview. The stronger that opposition becomes, the more it can reveal about the protagonist. As Ron explains, the protagonist is only as strong as the forces pushing back against them. Without meaningful resistance, there is little opportunity for the hero to reveal who they truly are.
The Wolf of Wall Street offered an even more interesting variation because the antagonist didn’t necessarily have to be another person. While the FBI provides an external threat, Jordan Belfort’s greed and self-obsession become powerful sources of conflict themselves. The very qualities that propel Jordan toward greater wealth also begin destroying the other parts of his life. His desire creates both momentum and destruction. Ron explains that the screenplay was structurally influenced by Goodfellas, following one man through an increasingly outrageous journey while constantly asking where his choices will ultimately take him. The screenplay also continued evolving during production as the actors improvised. Ron remembers an early cut running around six and a half hours, with an enormous amount of material generated through experimentation on set. It is a reminder that even on a major production, the screenplay can remain alive.
Working on Fury presented Ron with a different experience because David Ayer was both the writer and director. The visual intention of the movie was already embedded in the screenplay because the person writing the scenes was also imagining exactly how they would eventually be photographed. Yet beneath the tanks, bullets, mud, and battle sequences, Ron describes Fury fundamentally as a character piece. The story follows very different men going through the same horrific circumstances and explores how those experiences affect each of them differently. Spectacle may bring an audience into a movie, but character is often what makes them stay.
Perhaps Ron’s most valuable advice, however, has nothing to do with famous movies or Hollywood productions. It is much simpler: write every day. He rejects the idea that writers should depend on feeling inspired before beginning. The work itself creates the writer. Some days will produce strong pages. Other days will produce material that eventually disappears into the trash. Ron believes writers have to accept that reality instead of fearing it. As he puts it, “Writing is rewriting.” The first version isn’t sacred. It is simply the material from which the better version can eventually emerge.
For beginning screenwriters, Ron also offers a pragmatic perspective on structure. Early writing samples can benefit from demonstrating that the writer understands conventional storytelling. Those first screenplays might not become the films that define your career. Instead, they may show managers, agents, producers, and other industry professionals that you understand how to construct a story. Once you understand those foundations, you have greater freedom to bend or break them. But there is another side to that advice: writers also need to trust themselves. Every person possesses a unique combination of experiences, observations, failures, relationships, and reactions that nobody else has lived in precisely the same way. That individuality isn’t something to erase in pursuit of a formula. It’s one of the most valuable things a writer has.
For filmmakers, that may be the most important lesson of all. You can study structure until you know every beat, analyze great movies frame by frame, read hundreds of screenplays, and learn every filmmaking rule ever written—but eventually you have to stop preparing and start creating. Write the screenplay. Shoot the short. Make the feature with the resources you have. Put your work into festivals, send it to representatives, pursue every legitimate avenue available to you, and create opportunities instead of waiting for someone in the industry to hand you one. Ron’s journey is a reminder that filmmaking careers are rarely built through a single lucky break. They are built through repetition, discipline, relationships, mistakes, rewrites, and an almost unreasonable willingness to keep going. Your first script may not sell. Your first movie may not get distribution. The project you believe will change everything may disappear without a trace. But every page you write and every film you make gives you something the filmmaker who is still waiting for permission doesn’t have: experience. Learn the rules, develop your voice, trust your instincts, and then get back to work. Because ultimately, the only way to become a filmmaker is to keep making films.
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Alex Ferrari 1:32
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.
Dave Bullis 1:55
Hey everyone, thanks again for hitting that play button. Thanks again for joining me for another episode. Joining me today is Ron Peters. Ron is a screenwriter, story analyst, and editor. He is known for his work on the TV series Luck and also the movies Defiance, The Wolf of Wall Street, Fury, and the upcoming Now You See Me . Ron, thank you very much for joining us today.
Ron Peters 2:15
Thank you, Dave, for having me.
Dave Bullis 2:17
So, Ron, could you give us you know a little bit about your background and how you got started in in writing?
Ron Peters 2:22
Yeah, well, I kind of started really young. My mom would bring home these really fancy, hardbound journal notebooks from where she worked, and I would just kind of write and draw in them. Unbeknownst to me, that they were actually like worth $150, and then my mom would get angry at me for coloring and writing stories in them, and then that moved on to somewhere around the age of seven or eight. My mom had a digital camera, which were popular at the time, and you could record 15 seconds of video at most, and so my brother and I would make these little home movies, with each shot being no more than 15 seconds. And then from there, I was drawn to the media classes in high school, and I made a couple films while I was in high school, and actually had that that I wrote and directed, and and had a like kind of partnership with the school, whereas I could miss half of school to go make this movie, which we had gone out and got investors for, and then eventually got a small East Coast distribution for, and also chose to donate all the profits to the American Cancer Society. So that's kind of how I got started. And then that film, my second one of those films, the first one was called Friends of Crime, and the second one was called Joey Roston in the Commission, and that second film got me noticed at a film festival, and I was lucky enough to get a letter of recommendation from Ed Zwick, the director, and that kind of then started me on my way, and then I started working on Defiance, which is an Ed Zwick film. Right after that, and it's just kind of steadily grown from there. And now I'm lucky enough where I'm at the point where I get to travel a lot and be on set for all these these big, much bigger films, these huge studio films. And that's really the the best benefit is to be able to see the world and see all these different cultures.
Dave Bullis 4:42
How were you able to convince the school to let you miss, you know, half of school to do the movie? Though, I mean, did did you have to get your parents involved to talk to the principal and and something something like that?
Ron Peters 4:51
I you know I don't think they actually got involved. I was kind of honestly, I was kind of very lucky enough when I was a kid. I was kind of very charming. And I kind of used that, and in some cases abused it to get what I wanted as far as making these movies. I was just, I was just always drawn to it. I was always something that, like, honestly, my parents really didn't support that decision of of being a quote unquote artist. There was many fights with my father about it, but it was just something that I was always drawn to, and I was kind of hard headed in the fact that I wasn't gonna let anybody tell me what to do or that I couldn't do something. And I honestly think I just went down to the principal's office and said, "Hey, I'm doing this film. And a big selling point I remember was the fact that we were donating all the profits to the American Cancer Society, and they used it as like a, I think like an out of work program is something that they called it.
Dave Bullis 5:39
Well, you know, that's a pretty that's pretty cool how you're able to you know charm your way to do that, because when you were telling the story, I could just imagine somebody pitched that idea nowadays. They'd be like, "What? You you kidding me? So you know, it's just interesting to see how things have changed. You know, maybe there is you know a principal out there who would be you know very what's what we're looking for you very encouraging to students.
Ron Peters 6:22
Yeah, it's it's actually really interesting because when I was in high school, whenever we had like, I mean, I love to write, but but at the time in high school, I was really attracted to directing and using the camera to tell stories. I mean, I would write them out, I would flush them out, usually through very very long treatments at the time, they weren't like full on scripts except for the two films. But I would, I would always try and barter and negotiate with my teacher if we had like a project or we had to write a five page paper on something. I would, I would convince them in in many cases, that I could make a video that would demonstrate my knowledge of the subject much better than if I were to write it in a five-page essay, and then we can show it to the class, and kids can talk about it, and it could be a fun way to learn this. And in most cases, I remember making one in social studies on Roe v. Wade. I remember making one in English class on on racism. Man, and that's what I would do. And it's funny because nowadays a lot of kids are doing that as well. When I go back to my old high school and I talk to some of my teachers, they tell me that a lot of kids are one given the privilege to do it, but are also really interested in doing it that way and making videos as far as their projects go.
Dave Bullis 7:49
It's interesting because I was able to do that in my high school. We actually shot a episode, a Romeo and Juliet, but we actually shot it as an episode of Jerry Springer, so we had like
Ron Peters 8:03
That's brilliant.
Dave Bullis 8:03
We we had the you know the the Capulets and the um what is it the Montagues
Ron Peters 8:08
Yeah
Dave Bullis 8:09
Yeah and we we had you know each side and you know they would bring out their guest and you know we had a guy playing Jerry Springer. The teacher said in his analysis of it he you know you got a written feedback, and he's like, "This is either the the best entry to for this class, or this is the worst entry in this class. And I'm not quite sure.
Ron Peters 8:30
That's usually a good thing, though. That's usually a good thing. Yeah, it's just funny. Just reminded me when we were talking about that. So we were we entered that way. I mean, it's it's like sometimes school can be boring. I get it, but like when when you give the kids freedom to express their knowledge of the subject, like like making Romeo and Juliet out of Jerry Springer, or or any other way in the way that they know is that they feel is best to express it. I am all for that, and I just think that's more engaging, more entertaining, and also there's more learning involved in that way.
Dave Bullis 9:07
Yeah, I concur. And you know, with everything going towards video and especially mobile video now, you know, I think it's it's encouraging to hear that they're allowing students to do that.
Ron Peters 9:17
Absolutely, absolutely.
Dave Bullis 9:18
So you know, you mentioned you travel the world a lot. I know. I saw. We actually met on Instagram, and you know, I saw these great photos, you know, from all over the world. So, you know, basically, I guess you can do that now because you know, if somebody needs to hire you, Ron, they can just obviously email you, and you can be in Iceland or China or or Thailand, and you know, there's not really that big of a difference, right? Because you're still going to communicate through either email or Skype, right?
Ron Peters 9:43
Yeah, I mean, thanks to Skype and FaceTime and email, it makes it a lot easier. I still have to like I'm in Los Angeles right now, and I still have to come back here for a lot of whether it's just pre-production meetings or script meetings, because everything kind of starts here and then goes out. But yeah, I mean, the technology has made has shrunk the world in a sense,
Dave Bullis 10:21
Yeah, very true. I actually know a-he was a former exec at Fox, and he actually basically retired at I think around the age of 5055, And he, what he does now is he travels the world, and he just that-that's his whole thing now. And I'm still trying to get him on to come on the podcast, but you know now he just you know he'll he'll go to China. He takes a video with his phone. He uploads it. He does interviews with people from all over the world. It's really fascinating.
Ron Peters 10:50
Yeah, and I just I think travel breeds maturation. I think you really get a sense. You get a broader sense of life when you travel, and you see how different people interact, react, eat, treat others, live, go by their their day to day things. I just think when you see that the broad diversity in the world that there is with that. I don't know. For me, it just really brings a sense of of I don't know how to say it, but but I I don't want to say maturity, but it feels like maturity is what it feels like. I get what you're saying. You know, it definitely. You know, it's kind of like that TV show, An Idiot Abroad, with Carl Pilkington. I love that show. That's just hilarious.
Dave Bullis 11:50
Because Stephen Merchant, when he left, he said to him, he was Carl. You know, traveling, I really think broadens the mind, and of course, they're trying to get him to understand other people's cultures. And I mean, he. I mean, he barely can live in the British culture as it is, but but
Ron Peters 12:05
They throw him under the bus so hard they put him in like every horrible situation possible, which is kind of funny because he's like the perfect person to to be put in that situation as far as like us as viewers to watch him. But man, I feel bad for him sometimes.
Dave Bullis 12:21
Yeah, some of the some of the countries and some of the things they had him do. It was just be it was it was absolutely hilarious. And his reaction to everything is to basically he just doesn't understand anything. And it's for anyone who hasn't seen it that is listening to this, I'll link to in the show notes. But it's a a great show that I highly recommend, you know, Ron. Just you know, as we sort of you know talk about you know all your experiences and everything like that, you know, you know, you got involved in the TV show Defiance. Sorry, the movie Defiance. Yeah, you know, which actually has Daniel Craig in it. You know, so how did you actually get involved with the movie?
Ron Peters 13:00
Through Ed Zwick, who saw my second film, and we met, and he was very, very gracious, kind of in his praise and in his offering to bring me on board. That this film that we're we're working on right now, I'd love for you to take a look at the script. I love what you can possibly bring as far as writing, and and that was pretty much it. And then that that's really what opened a lot of doors afterwards for that for me.
Dave Bullis 13:33
So you know when you when you get the script, okay? So when you got the script for Defiance, you know what was one of the first things that that you did with with the script. I mean, did you you know read it cover to cover and not make any notes, or you know, do you take a red pen out and write ideas down as you're going?
Ron Peters 13:49
Yeah. Wow. Defiance was like almost seven or eight years, eight eight years ago or something like that. But yeah, every script is kind of different. Usually, I'll read it first page to last page, no notes. Maybe I'll jot an idea down here, there. But I just want to see if I would enjoy this film at the theater first, and then from there I'll break it down structurally, and from there, then after structurally I'll go character, and it's interesting because I go character second, but character I think is almost more important than structurally because you can have a great structure of screenplay, but if if you're not if you don't have entertaining or interesting characters, it's it's still it's still boring. You know, we're not going to learn anything. We're not going to be able to relate to anybody on screen, and so that's kind of my process, but it's always it always differs per script. To be honest, like like with Wolf. Okay, I got to be honest. So when I work on a script, I also find myself and my lifestyle kind of molding a bit. Towards what I'm working on, so like for instance, when I was working on Wolf, you know, you're going out with your friends a lot, you're having fun, you're kind of experiencing it, you're taking that as quote unquote research for what you're working on, and you and I and then I engage myself in that lifestyle. Versus when, even though I was working on Fury, it was very regimented. I would make my bed every morning, and so I, for me personally, that's kind of almost how I work. I've noticed that subconsciously at this point in my life, but so that's why it depends. It differs every script. I mean, sometimes, like with Fury, I'll be very, very detail oriented, and I'll use a specific pen, and I'll make or a specific number two pencil, and I'll make sure it's sharpened to the point every time before I write. And little things like that really, for me, keep me in it, make me believe. If if that makes sense,
Dave Bullis 16:01
I see exactly what you mean. You know, I I think you know once we get in that mindset, and you know it's almost it's almost like how an actor does method acting. It's almost like method writing.
Ron Peters 16:11
Yeah, yeah, and and and to be honest, I mean not to sound pompous, but as a writer, when you are writing, you are God. You are playing God. You can puppeteer the characters, the setting, the weather, any which way you want. So you are-you literally have the responsibility of God when you're writing. And I-you have to put yourself in the shoes of each and every character, no matter how much you dislike, or how much of a jerk or an asshole a certain character is, you have to put yourself in their shoes because no matter how bad of a person someone thinks another person is, we all do things for what we think are the right reasons. Personally, you know, like Hitler, horrible, horrible person. But what he thought in his head, he was doing the right thing. Though I don't agree with that. For the record, I don't agree. I thought Hitler was a fucking idiot, and what he did was absolutely horrible. But when you look at it from the perspective of a writer, when you have an antagonist, when you have a villain in your film, your screenplay, whatever it is that you're writing, you have to put yourself in their shoes and try and see and understand why do they think this is the right thing that they're doing, and so that's why kind of yeah, it's like method. You you have to do that for the responsibility that you have to the story.
Dave Bullis 17:39
You know, I think Mickey Rourke is somebody who said it the best when he said that most writers don't understand the antagonist. He said sometimes, or sorry, most of the time they're just evil for the sake of being evil. And you know, it's like you said, you know, you have to put yourself in their shoes and have to make it believable as to why they're doing what they're doing because, in reality, you know, nobody really gets up one morning and says, "I'm going to be evil today. But
Ron Peters 18:06
Yeah, but you know exactly, and and the character, the lead character, the protagonist isn't going to be the protagonist is only as strong as his his or her antagonist, depending on how hard that the antagonist hits back at him to stop him from reaching his goal is only going to show you how strong of the protagonist that he really is.
Dave Bullis 18:29
As we talk about the antagonist and the protagonist, you know, you also worked on you know the script for the movie The Wolf of Wall Street. Yeah, you know, honestly, Ron, I walked into the movie and I didn't know what to expect. I know it was Scorsese, and I walked out and I was like, "Wow, that was 10 times better than I thought it was going to be. It reminded me a lot of leaving Las Vegas. Wait, not leaving Las Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. Leaving Las Vegas was a very down movie.
Ron Peters 18:56
Yeah, but it's a great film as well. It's a great film. My favorite line. This is just a quick side note. My favorite line from *Leaving Las Vegas* is when Nic Cage is poking his head out the car window, and he's like, "You got a great ass, but shut your head all the way up it. I just love that quote. Anyways,
Dave Bullis 19:13
it reminded me of Fear and Loathing Las Vegas. So you know, when you get a script like The Wolf of Wall Street, you know how do you handle something like that, that really doesn't have a clear. I mean, we have a clear protagonist, which is Jordan Belfort. But you know, you know, our antagonist could be a couple of different things. But but when you get a script like that, Ron, you know, how how do you work sort of work through that?
Ron Peters 19:37
Well, first off, Terry Terry Winter, who who was the head writer on Wolf Wall Street, the main guy, he did a fantastic job, and that script was actually drafted like seven six or seven years before we went into production on it. And I remember working with Terry, and he was he would tell me that he him and and Marty would talk, and Terry specifically said, "I'm going to kind of mold this structurally after Goodfellas. He feel he Terry's like, I feel like this story would be perfectly told in that type of sense, and so we started with that, and we started with that structure and that kind of idea of this one man's almost life story through all the crazy experiences he has, and is he even going to make it out alive in the end? And you have you have characters like like Dignum, who's who's your FBI? You can say like actual physical character of an antagonist, but also in those films, what makes them also kind of relatable is the source of antagonism as far as Jordan Belfort's greed himself, and how many quote unquote pleasures that can bring you, but at the same time, how many pains and forces to stop you from having the other aspects of life that you want, like say a family and children, where how greed and self obsession can turn into a drug addiction can turn into this and can really hinder you from having what I think are the lasting things in life. So there's there's also other sources of antagonism besides physical, and sometimes those are to me more interesting.
Dave Bullis 21:40
I concur because you know as I was watching the movie, you know I was realizing you know Jordan's worst enemy is himself. Yeah, and also you know as we're watching this movie, the conflict is really with himself. It's it's a lot of internal conflict that plays out externally. Yeah, and it's so interesting too because that also that own internal conflict is also kind of what drives him and motivates him and inspires him to to make more money to go out and do these illegal things and it's that's so interesting to me like that type of characterization. It really did and and you know the ending really it was very interesting too because it didn't end in the way that I thought it was going to end. I wasn't too familiar with Jordan's story, you know, going into it, but when at the end, when he's just simple, simply tells the guy, "Sell me this pen, you know, it's actually pretty thought provoking too, because you know you could be taken a number of different ways, and the way that I took it was basically you'd have to say to Jordan, "Take, you know, when he says, "Sell me this pen, you take the pen from him and say, "Could you write your name down? And then when he says, "Oh, can you? You know, when Jordan have to say, "Well, I need a pen for that, that's when you try to sell him the pen. But you know, it's interesting because even now Jordan goes on on the on seminars like that, and he tries to you know he's selling people the experience. He sell he's you know doing all this other stuff. So it just it's all pretty interesting how that that how the movie ties together in the end.
Ron Peters 23:05
Yeah, and it's that actually wasn't the original ending either. I'm trying to remember. I talked about this a lot when I was doing press for it when the film came out, but um, The original man, I honestly don't remember the original ending right now off the top of my head.
Dave Bullis 23:30
But I know, like, a lot of the stuff that was actually in the beginning, as far as like his backstory, was also kind of towards the end. Oh wait, you know what? Maybe I have a script. I can just kind of pull out the original script. If you give me five minutes, we can keep talking, and I'll try and find the original script to see if I can pull it up here. Okay, that sounds that sounds great. So you know, as we sort of you know talk about you know movies and stuff like that about you know the the you know tension and and and goals and stuff like that. You know, so again, when you're reading these scripts, I often wonder, you know, what screenplay readers and consultants and everything, you know, I know everybody sort of has a different way of looking at things, but I think one thing that everyone has to look for is are two things. What number one is what is the core of the story, and number two is you know what is the essence of every scene? Yeah, is that something that that that you do when you're reading the scripts?
Ron Peters 24:26
Um, yeah, I love the biggest mistake that that writers make is keeping in their babies, which are scenes that they think are amazing or like they show this great aspect, but really they don't progress the story. They're they're they're there because the writer loves his own writing and and nothing really more than that. Um. But it's it's actually really interesting because I get the the the title of script and how. Assistant script coordinator and script editor for my credit, but it's really interesting because I'm not always a huge fan of necessarily what I do for a lot of writers because it becomes a it becomes a crutch, and I think writers should have more trust and faith in themselves. I've kind of carved out this niche where studios bring me in a lot for structural reasons, or like quick scene rewrites is what I found myself to be doing a lot. I don't always necessarily go over the entire script. I mean, Wolf, I did. Now you see me. I did Fury. I did Defiance. Yeah, but like for instance, like scenes like for funny people. I also just recently worked on the TV show, the new the the reboot of Twin Peaks, and I was simply just brought in for that to give them a younger demographics eyes on the story, if they could see somebody younger being able to relate to it, so it-I don't know. I mean, there's there's a lot of them out there, and it's funny that we're talking about this at the same time we just got done talking about like Jordan Belfort and and people that go out there and and sell this, you know, lifestyle or like everybody's obsessed with DJ Khaled right now and everything that he sells on his social media stuff and you know there's that guy Ty Lopez on YouTube that talks about his Ferrari and books and all that stuff. Excuse me, But so so I don't know. So there's some good ones out there, and there's some bad ones. But I would just, if I would give any advice to writers, I would be to trust themselves more with their own writing. I know it's a demon. I know you got to battle it daily, but but you know, just mount up and just trust yourself. That's the the biggest thing that a lot of people forget is their own uniqueness. A lot of people forget that they have a unique equation of experiences that only they have gone through up into this point where they're at in their life, and nobody else has gone through that exact equation of experiences, or had that exact reaction after that experience, and I just say don't discredit it. You know, credit yourself.
Dave Bullis 27:30
One of the best books of on writing I've ever read, or on writing I've ever read, was Stephen Pressfield's The Art of the War of Art. Excuse me, and you know that's about you know every day it's about resistance and you know going in there and doing the you know best work that you can and you know Stephen for those who for those of you who are familiar with the podcast you know I talk a lot about Stephen Pressfield and next to me right now is four books of his that are just I think absolutely phenomenal. Anyone who wants to be a writer should at least read the War of Art. But again, you know, like you said, Ron, it's about going in there, trusting yourself, and just beating that that monster every single day.
Ron Peters 28:11
Yeah, and anybody who wants to be a writer should be reading every day. They should be reading every day. They should be writing every day. They should not be relying on their quote unquote inspiration or their feeling of oh I feel like writing I have something to say today no you you become a good writer because you put in the work because you write every day and not every day is going to be good you have to accept that 75% of what you write or type is going to be garbage and shit and it's going to go straight to the trash but you have to accept it it's part of the craft and and and and writing is rewriting. So you come in every day as if it were a nine to five, and you sit down. There's a German phrase called Sisflich, which means sticking your ass to the chair, and you just sit there and you bleed, or you type, or you throw yourself into it, whatever words that you choose that get yourself in that emotional state of being able to do it. That's all you really have to do: read, write every day, day in, day out, and that's that's the best you know advice I can give.
Dave Bullis 29:15
I actually just just received you know some of the you know the the 2015 you know, best screenplays of the year. You know, I've been, you know, people send me them in emails, and I put together a photo of them. And I, you know, I pick up the movies I haven't seen yet, like Bridge of Spies. I'm gonna read that probably today or tomorrow. I haven't seen the movie yet, but I want to read the screenplay first. Although it might spoil the movie, I hear it's awesome. I I just want to dissect it, you know. And um, you know I would be verbose if I didn't didn't at least mention that I'm very jealous that you got to read the Twin Peaks scripts because I'm a huge Twin Peaks fan and and I love David Lynch when he was here in Philly I I went to go see him and like like tickets. Sold out. Like literally in minutes to go see him, and I picked up two as soon as they went on sale. I mean, I am just a huge fan of all his work.
Ron Peters 30:18
Yeah, and he's a he's an amazing man too. He, I worked on that show kind of at the same time as I was coming out of a relationship of a breakup, and he really helped me. I mean, he's really big into the transcendental meditation and whatnot, but he really helped me as far as finding a sense of peace as a man and also as an artist, because that was many conversations we had about the struggle of being an artist. And as an artist, should you constantly be feeling despair and sadness so you can put it into your work? Like, is there something wrong with feeling happy as an artist? And we talked a lot about that. And he really guided me in a in a good way. So I have nothing but praise for David. I mean, he's he's such an auteur too. I mean, he's such a maestro in his craft, and he's he knows exactly what we wanted. You know, the show almost didn't happen actually because because David's requests for how to shoot it were very specific, and Showtime didn't want to up the budget, and so like this, this could have the show could have been started to shoot like a year ago, but because of that, maybe not a year ago, maybe like nine months ago, but because Showtime didn't want out the budget, they were being kind of stingy in that sense. It got delayed, and then finally they gave in, and we were able to start shooting like three months ago,
Dave Bullis 31:42
That's great that they were able to finally, you know, come to a an agreement. Because somebody actually asked him when he was here in Philly, probably about a year, year and a half ago, they actually said to him, "What are you making next? Do you have anything on the pipeline? And he said, "Well, no, I'm not working on anything right now. And then about I think maybe a month after that, at most, the the promo video for Twin Peaks season three came on, and I was like, "Oh my god, this is phenomenal! And yeah, I mean, I know it's next year. I think they said it's going to be released, but I mean, honestly, I can't wait.
Ron Peters 32:13
Yeah, yeah. All I can say about is damn good coffee.
Dave Bullis 32:20
Trust me. If you could talk about it, I'd probably talk your ear off, and I I know you can't can't mention anything. But you know, just to you know to continue your work and everything, you got to work on Fury, which was a you know the the World War Two movie with Brad Pitt. You know you got that script. You know that sort of you know very interesting movie because it's a lot of, at least in the first half, is a lot of you know battle scenes, very heavy detail battle scenes. You know, obviously it's a World War II movie, so there's going to be some tank battles. Again, you probably had to switch gears a little bit because I'm sure you know there was probably a lot of detailed action scenes in the script, or maybe I'm completely mistaken there wasn't. But you know, so how did you go about you know working with you know the script for Fury?
Ron Peters 33:04
Well, the biggest difference from going from from Wolf to Fury was Fury is written by David Ayer. It's also directed by David Ayer. So the script already like you see how he's going to shoot it. I mean, I'm very familiar with with David and how he films. However, Fury was one of the first films that he didn't use so much handheld cameras. If you watch some of David's earlier films, he does a lot of handheld camera filmmaking, and with Fury, Sony really wanted smooth shots. I mean, David also really wanted smooth shots. They were giving him a much bigger budget, so they kind of wanted this very because the the battle scenes were going to be gory. There were going to there's going to be mud. There's going to be blood. There's going to be bullets flying, tanks firing. That that they wanted to shoot it kind of almost glossy in the sense where like there's cranes and it's smooth and there's tracking shots. There's not gritty camera movement that's interfering with the viewer interacting with the battle scenes themselves, and so you could see it in the script how kind of it was already going to be shot. There's a little bit of camera directions which usually aren't in the script, but because David's the writer director on it, he already has it in his head how he wants to shoot it, and so that was the biggest change of of going to Fury from Wolf because usually then you're the next step in the process would be for the scriptwriter and the team to go with the director, and and the director then has to decide how he wants to shoot it versus skipping that step completely because the writer is the director, and he's already got it in his head how he wants to shoot it. So it. His fury was just more structurally. There wasn't kind of there wasn't too much. David's so good with character work. He's so good. He almost starts with. I I think that's actually what he starts with when he writes. Is he starts with characters, so there wasn't much character work that needed to be done with that. I mean, it was when we talked about the script. It was talked about this is a character piece, and it's about these this this group of guys, how they're all different and how they're all going through the same thing, and how it's affecting each one of them. And like scenes, if you've seen the movie, the scene where they go up into the little townhome and they have the two women make them some food, and and Logan also hooks up with the one girl, but that scene was meant to be written as if it could be played out on a stage, like for theater. So it was just, yeah, I guess it was just very different working with a writer director because he already has it and instead how he wants to shoot it and you just you just go with that and and it almost kind of makes the process a little bit easier you know because there's less cooks in the kitchen so to speak
Dave Bullis 36:21
Yeah you know that would make the process. I, you know, understand clearly what you mean. That would make the process easier. You know, and you know, I sort of imagine too that you know when he did see the script, he probably knew. Okay, we don't need to add you know too many details to this because I already know what it's going to be. If you know what I'm trying, what I'm saying, like he already knew, you know. Obviously, this is going to be a scene that I've already storyboarded myself, so you know we don't need to worry too much about that. And he was, you know, I'm sure, you know, that probably took. Okay, well, you know, that's now this is a little bit easier now, because now we don't have to, you know, now we can. There's less things we have to worry about. So if you know what I mean.
Ron Peters 36:58
Yeah, and and David he is so intelligent on mil. He's a military man himself, so he's so intelligent on all aspects military. Like usually, there's a fact checker that comes into play, but with David, none was really needed. He he knows that stuff like the back of his hand.
Dave Bullis 37:16
Yeah, because the movie actually had one of the last working tiger tanks in in in in the in the world because I think there's two left. I think the British have one, and I think the other one is in a tank museum in Russia. But that was amazing. You were actually able to use a actual Tiger tank for the movie.
Ron Peters 37:36
Yeah, yeah. I remember shooting days in in outside of London, for that they were just-I mean-you would wake up and you would feel like you were in a war camp, like it was-it was crazy. It was a really cool experience.
Dave Bullis 37:54
That's either a very good thing or a very bad thing. Like, oh my God, we're in a war camp.
Ron Peters 37:59
Well, yeah, it's funny because when you look back on when you work on all these films, you kind of almost have like these different parts of your life that you like you get to experience, and sometimes they're not always good. Sometimes you you know you're having to work on material that that is maybe a bit depressing or a bit sad, and and it kind of brings you down. But I I can say that for every film that I've ever worked on, I look back on them, and they were all amazing learning experiences. No matter if I was extremely happy or extremely down working on the material that I was at the time, but looking back, I mean nothing but gratitude for all of them.
Dave Bullis 38:34
I saw a a psychologist. He wrote this article that if you spend more money on experiences than actual things, you're going to be happier, and you know, I, I, you know, making these movies, even you know, I've been a part of, of you know, independent movies and and stuff. You know, some were very good, some were bad, meaning experiences, and you know, you just sometimes though when you you actually get this feeling of just you know, you immerse yourself in the movie, you you just sort of feel like you're part of a team, and you remember that stuff, you know. And I can still look back now, even though some of them were like, you know, 567, years ago, you know. But I mean, still, you know, you look back and you're like, that's actually a pretty damn good memory. I'm glad I did that.
Ron Peters 39:12
Yeah, it's yeah, you get to have those crazy experiences with the cast and the crew. You go out after a long day, or like you kind of get bonded like family, you know, especially on those night shoots when you're going till like four or five in the morning and you didn't start until like eight at night the previous day, those those you get a lot of bonding experience on.
Dave Bullis 39:32
Yeah, definitely. You know, it's always about you know forming that team. That's something I always sort of preach here is about you know make sure that the people you can work with, or the people that you choose for your team, or people that you can work with, because you know we all we got to make sure you know you're you're able to form as a as an actual cohesive team. You know, Ron, I I know we're sort of running out of time. I had a couple of questions come in from the audience. Would you mind answering a few?
Ron Peters 40:01
Yeah, sure.
Dave Bullis 40:09
You know, the first question that came in was, "How do you feel about formulas in screenwriting? Which I think they're referring to, like save the cat and you know the sequencing method.
Ron Peters 40:20
I think this. I think if you are a starting writer, if you are looking to quote unquote break into the industry, then I think your first couple screenplays that you write should be a bit formulaic in that sense, because those first couple screenplays that you write are not going to be the screenplays that get you the Oscar. They're not going to be the screenplays that get you the yemi. What they're going to be is they're going to be writing samples that get you representation. And what representation wants to see from starting out writers is that you're not trying to make these crazy avant-garde films. You know, Bergman didn't make Persona until later in his career. You know, so you want to start with formula, and then you can break it down. But you, but I mean, it's it's a it's a slippery slope because you can almost say that every film has a formula. Every film has a you know first cause of action. Every film has a climax and catharsis and a midpoint and blah blah blah, but you know, stick to it. If you're starting out screenwriter, stick to it because you're going to use that as writing samples to get you other work, to get you representation, and then from there you can branch yourself out.
Dave Bullis 41:33
Okay, very cool. You know, we have another question that came in, and that was which story proved to be the most difficult to make, to make it work for all the characters involved, and why?
Ron Peters 41:47
Oh man, I I mean it's funny because I've worked on a lot of scripts as well that have never even seen the light of day, and there's. I'll say this: there's one that I worked on five years ago, and oh, where is it? Where is it? I thought I had the script, but anyways, I worked on this script five years ago, and now it finally went into production. And it's we're shooting in Italy next summer, and it's called Enzo Ferrari, and it's the biopic of the man who started Ferrari and Christian Bale is going to play him, and it's got Naomi Rickpiece in it, and Michael Mann's directing it. I worked on that script five years ago when one of the original drafts was drafted by Jeb and Jez Butterworth, and that was man. I remember the characters back then were so entangled, and you had to kind of individually pull them apart like sticky spaghetti, and figure out what each one's desire was and wanted for the story. And I remember that being probably the most incredibly difficult. Unfortunately, I can't speak too much more about it because the film's we're shooting next summer, so it's going to be coming out in two years and after that. But I would say that's probably the most one out of the out of the other films that have actually come out. Probably Wolf. Wolf was kind of crazy because there were so many cogs and pieces to that machine as far as characters go, all centered around Jordan, and there was multiple, multiple drafts of that script, which, by the way, I just pulled up the original ending, and the original ending was just going to end with the same montage that you see at the beginning of the film as him as a young kid with his father. I believe they used a picture at like a baseball field. It was that, and then it cuts to Jordan's estate, and he uses a black AMX to cut two lines of coke on an elaborate aux table, and he speaks directly to the camera. Of all my addictions, there was one above that ultimately brought me down. He peels a crisp $100 bill off a wad, rolls it up. Looks like he's about to snarf up a line, but Jordan says, "I'm not talking about this. I'm talking about this. And Jordan unfurls the $100 bill with a snap. So that scene that you see in the beginning of the film that was also a really popular in the trailer, that he's saying the thing that can obliterate your enemies is money. That was actually the original ending of the script.
Dave Bullis 44:50
Oh wow, that's very cool. Well, thank you for that. And this is amazing that I now you know now everyone knows what the alternate ending is. So thank you for that, Ron. And you know I can imagine Wolf being the toughest because I mean there were so many characters in there, and I you know I you know there was Jonah Hill's character, you know he played an integral role, and and and there's just so many other you know of Jordan's guys of his crew, you know that that were I'm sure you know I'm sure you know when you're when you're when you were going through the script, that you were like, okay, now we got to keep track of all these guys, you know?
Ron Peters 45:23
Yeah, and that was also a film that we were constantly working on, like while it was being shot, and there was a lot of improvising going on on set. So after you know, after we're done shooting on set, we're watching dailies and we're saying, oh man, this would be great, this because they were all so funny. I mean, there was so many like there is probably a good four or five hours of additional scenes that didn't make the film that I am just hoping that they release in like a bonus DVD because the original cut before Marty took the film to his house in New York to cut it down personally because we were running out of time for the release date, the original cut was like six and a half hours, and it was just like because there's so much you can kind of play with as far as actors go in those scenes, and one can be oh try this try this yeah do that do that and so yeah that was you're constantly trying to like reel everybody in in in a sense and keep everybody online towards the goal of the scene, and then you're also having to rewrite like oh my god that was hilarious let's use this like Matthews the the chest beating line which has become very famous from it like that was that was all improv I mean that was kind of like Leo was like let's just shoot it and Mario's like okay and that's just how that played out. So, like, you're you're constantly reworking this story while it's while it's being filmed.
Dave Bullis 46:47
If they release a six hour cut, that would be that would be you know phenomenal. But but yeah, maybe one day they will release a six hour cut. You know, there's a friend of a guy I know who I'm trying on the podcast. He had a six hour cut of his movie that he shot it with Comedy Central, and Comedy Central basically flat out said, "We're never going to release a six-hour version of this. You'll get the 90-minute version, and that's it.
Ron Peters 47:11
Yeah.
Dave Bullis 47:13
And so the last question that came that that came in is, do you think a writer can break in slash get past the gatekeepers with a screenplay that doesn't strictly follow the three act structure.
Ron Peters 47:28
Well, it depends. It depends. First off, it better be a really damn good story. It better be a damn good screenplay, otherwise, because the gatekeeper are the readers. They're the people that aren't really even paid that much that work as assistants or just readers at the studios or agencies. So those are your quote unquote gatekeepers. You got to get past first, and if you can somehow make the story intriguing early on, and you can get us hooked early on, and keep the story progressing and building. Then, yeah, it's going to be hard as far as like, if it's your first screenplay, if you're trying to break in, I wouldn't recommend doing it. I mean, I would recommend just getting you. We want like a good solid three features and a couple TV show treatments and Bibles under you know under your quote unquote portfolio that you can use as writing samples to get you the representation. Then you can work on those films, those screenplays that are more avant-garde in the sense that they don't follow a three-act structure. Maybe they follow more Shakespearean five or Mammoth Four, but also at the same time, I mean, who am I to tell you that you can't? I mean, I didn't listen to anybody, so I suggest you know follow your heart in that sense. And shooting and making films is so much less expensive than what it once was. So you know, maybe you can also shoot it and make it yourself. You know, at the same time.
Dave Bullis 49:20
Yeah, very good point, Ron. You know, with with the advent of crowdfunding now, and you know, shooting on digital, you know, there's a lot more opportunities now available to to filmmakers out there.
Ron Peters 49:32
Yeah, absolutely. It's it's amazing. I kind of love it. I mean, it it gives this freedom to the artists that like they've never had in a long time.
Dave Bullis 49:41
Yeah, and you know, as the various guests I have on here, that's something we discuss. Is you know, which route would you take? And you know, you can choose the route we were just talking about. You could choose the route of if you know entering a competition and hopefully you place in there. You could go the route of sending it to a studio, and hope a reader gives it a you know hope the reader passes it up the chain of command, so to speak. So you know that all these you know there's a lot of different factors that play into it. Obviously, you know if you and I wrote a 200 you know million dollar Pirates of the Caribbean. That's not something that we're going to be able to shoot in our backyard. But but it's also something that we wouldn't be able to really break a three act structure from at the same time because yeah, very true.
Ron Peters 50:32
Studios that dish out that amount of money for those films. I mean, even Wolf. Wolf was was like just around $100 million budget. But even still, there's a lot of input from producers and studio execs that are putting their neck out on the line for investing this much in a film, and they're gonna want you to follow an almost kind of guaranteed structure in a way.
Dave Bullis 50:54
Yeah, I I can totally see what you mean. It's sort of like nobody wants a repeat of Land of the Lost, where you know I remember when that came out, and I remember you know all the articles on the Hollywood Reporter and Variety about you know the execs who all greenlit that were all canned, and they said you know why would you invest all this money into a a TV show, an old TV show from the what 70s 60s I think
Ron Peters 51:19
Yeah yeah it was some 60s, I believe.
Dave Bullis 51:23
Yeah, and it's just you know, so I completely understand what you're saying. You know, just just hearing interviews too from other directors and writers. You know, just about getting notes about the dailies and getting notes about this, and you know, what notes do you take? What notes do you just sort of you know? I think it was maybe Craig Mazin was he was saying that one time he got notes and he you know he said okay you want to thank you very much for these and he you know he he went about on his day and the next day he got more notes but it was basically the same notes but written differently and he was like you know what the hell so he's like okay guys I'll I'll take these notes into consideration too, but but yeah, you know there is a lot of money at stake, and there is a lot of people with their their necks on the line, but
Ron Peters 52:08
Yeah,
Dave Bullis 52:08
Ron, yeah, but Ron, I I want to I know you know we've pretty much run out of time. I want to say you know thank you very much for coming on. You know, is there any sort of anything you want to say to sort of you know put a period at the end of this sentence,
Ron Peters 52:23
Right! If you're a writer, declare yourself a writer and declare yourself the best writer, and just write every day, and just go fork with that. And you said earlier about you know deciding which route to take to go Screenplay Festival, to go agents, you know, the best route I think is to just take all of them. Take all of them, see what options you get back, and then then you get to choose. Because if you have one choice, one option, you got nothing. If you got two, you still got nothing. But if you have three options to choose from, you have a choice. So I would just I would say that I would say it's a very kind of hardworking industry. There's you got to think of it from the fact that there are people moving to LA and from all over the world trying to compete with their script to get their script made, and and you you have to go into that sense where like every day I'm going to commit to this, and sometimes that's going to require you to miss out on other things. But it will pay off in the end if you put the work in now. Is best thing I can say.
Dave Bullis 53:35
And Ron, I think that's a great way, great way to end this episode of the podcast. Ron, again, I want to say thank you very much for coming on. And where can people find you at online?
Ron Peters 53:44
Mostly just Instagram, Twitter. My handle is at Ron Auteur R O N A U T E U R. I don't think I do much else online. My my computer is actually mostly in airplane mode when I'm writing, so
Dave Bullis 54:02
I will link there all his social media channels in the show notes. Everyone, again, I found Ron on Instagram. That's how we started talking. Ron, again, thanks for coming on and sharing all you know everything with us. And you know, I wish you the best for all your future projects.
Ron Peters 54:17
Thank you, Dave. Same to you, man. It was a pleasure talking with you.
Dave Bullis 54:19
Oh, thank you very much. Thank you. You know, Ron. Again, have a great night, buddy.
Ron Peters 54:23
Thank you. You too.
Dave Bullis 54:24
Take care. Bye bye.
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