IFH 792: The Power of the Cut: Storytelling Secrets from Michael Trent

Alex Ferrari 1:29
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Michael Trent 1:35
Well, initially, it's a family involvement. I mean, my father was a sound editor in England. He's now retired, so editing has been something that I grew up with, going to work with my dad. I've even got pictures of me back in the late 1970s with with single single stripe and film in my hands. So it was really my father that got me involved. But I also did go to a film school in England, a very small, relatively unknown one, but it was, it was still a film course that I did in England, but essentially it was a family connection.

Dave Bullis 2:13
So, so you were basically born into it. So it was almost like was in your blood to get into the film industry

Michael Trent 2:20
In lots of ways. Yeah. I mean, it really was. It was something that we grew up with on a, on a, you know, really a day to day basis.

Dave Bullis 2:28
So let me ask you, this, is there a difference, or of any kind, whether major or minor, between the the sort of the English film industry and the American film industry?

Michael Trent 2:41
If there is, I'm not sure that I'm really aware of it. When I was in England, I worked on lots of American films anyway, or at least what they were financed from the United States. So I couldn't really tell the difference. I mean, there's certainly larger budgets in the United States, and I did work on some English films that were over smaller budgets. But no, as far as the, as far as my work experience is concerned, that there wasn't really a difference, or isn't really a difference.

Dave Bullis 3:16
So, so when did you first, you know, decide, I mean, when you were editing, actually, let me ask you this, when you were, when you're going back into editing, and you were actually, you know, as you were sort of born into this, did you have, like, a movie, Ola, at home, or anything else, where you were just sort of cutting your own films together, or maybe even a Super Eight camera?

Michael Trent 3:31
Well, no, we didn't have a movie Ola, though they were quite big, big machines, but I did get used to using a movie Ola from the age of about, I would say, 10 years old. My father would bring us into work and and I would get to use the machinery and that and and steam Becks and flatbed chems. But we didn't have any equipment at home. No.

Dave Bullis 3:57
So, Michael, when did you make the trip then, from from England to over here to America

Michael Trent 4:03
In 1994

Dave Bullis 4:05
So when you came over, did you already have like, a few gigs lined up and like movies to edit?

Michael Trent 4:11
No, no, not at all. I was on a movie that started in England, and it was a, it was a picture called we're back a dinosaur story. And I was a sound assistant on that movie, and we were mixing at Twickenham studios in England, and the executive producer on the movie was Steven Spielberg, and he saw the mix from Twickenham and wanted some changes, and decided that it would be better to bring the movie from England to the United States to do the final mix at Universal. Actually, we ended up at Todd ao. But actually, it's the other way around. We ended up at Universal. That's how I initially came here. Yeah, that was all in that was in 1990 Three. And then I met a girl, in fact, on that movie, and then went back to England. In the meantime, we did the long distance relationship thing. And then I moved here completely in September of 94 but at that time, I had no gigs lined up when I arrived here, I really cold called British editors that I'd known in England, about five of them, and luckily for me, one of them came back, actually, with a job offer. So finding work was initially was was as a relatively easy for me, just because this, this particular editor picked me up and gave me a job.

Dave Bullis 5:46
So at that point he knew you, so you didn't have to, like, show him a real or anything, right? He so he actually knew you from before.

Michael Trent 5:53
Yeah, I knew I knew him from England, and he was British editor that would worked in England, and then was working here. He was working on a picture, picture called Rob Roy for Michael Caine Jones. The editor was Peter hones. And I say I knew him from England, and he was one of the people I called, and he just happened to have an opening at that particular time.

Dave Bullis 6:13
So just to sort of follow up on that question, and just to sort of you know if you're ever going, because I actually have some friends of mine who've actually gone from country to country, to country. I think that's a really incredible feat. Because if you go to a another, even if you're in England, let's say, and you go from maybe Manchester to London, you know, you're depending upon the size of the network you might have, you know, no nobody you know, have to actually hit your foot in the door through reels. You know, you're basically starting over from scratch, you know, and then going from a different country to another country. I mean, you really either have to a have a deep network, or you have to be able to just sort of, you know, get your foot in the door to a lot of places. And I actually know a couple of people, Michael, who actually moving from, like, different places, like Australia to England, because they want to actually get into the into the British film industry. Film industry. So it's just kind of, I always kind of find it, you know, fascinating, because just to be able to do that, either have to one of the, one of those two things, have a deep network, or be able to just knock on 10,000 doors to get one, yes,

Michael Trent 7:14
Yeah. Well, that, that's right. I mean, you know, when I look back on it, it was a crazy thing to do, but I was young at the time, and it it didn't feel scary at the time. It was just something I wanted to do, and for some reason, I felt that it would work out, and to one extent or another, it has. So I feel very lucky,

Dave Bullis 7:38
You know, don't you and you touched on something too. Don't you feel when you're younger? Maybe, you know, when you're first starting out in film, anything's possible, you know, like, anything you don't mean, like you could, it just feels that everything's just gonna come together, where you're in a project, or what have you just, Yo, you know what I you know, damn, the people who naysayers and I don't have a lot of budget, I don't have a lot of budget. I don't have a lot of budget. I don't have a lot of, you know, whatever, but we're just gonna go do something. You know what I mean? Because I mean honestly, like, I'm 32 right now, and when I was first starting out, I would actually go out and shoot a hell of a lot more than I do now. You know what has a similar effect happened to you?

Michael Trent 8:17
I think that it was definitely my experience was I didn't really consider the possibility of failing, and that wasn't any kind of not meant in an arrogant way. It's just that I just felt that it would work out. It was something that I really wanted to do to move to the United States and work in film editing, and it was just something that I felt would work out. And I wasn't. I wasn't scared about it, as I say, probably foolishly looking back, but I felt it was, it was just something that would, would just happen. There is definitely a sort of a fatalist element to it. I guess I just didn't consider what would happen if I failed.

Dave Bullis 9:09
Yeah, you take quitting and failing off the table, right? And basically you're like, you don't give yourself a choice. You just say, say to yourself, listen, this is the, you know, I have one option, and this is it. I have to do, go do this.

Michael Trent 9:22
This is what we're doing. That's, that's basically, was, this is what I'm doing, yeah, and there was no considering anything else. So it was just, I mean, there's been periods of unemployment in the interim where things have not, you know, always been easy. But initially, the somebody was looking after me for sure, and it was Peter hones. There's no doubt about that.

Dave Bullis 9:56
So after that one editing job that we were just discussing after that. Was over. You know, what did you do to go out and to try to find, like, more assignments and more movies

Michael Trent 10:06
After, after Rob Roy, yes, yeah, I was actually Peter hones had another movie which we went straight on to, so I didn't have to do any knocking on doors. We went straight, almost straight, onto a movie called Eye for an eye that John Schlesinger directed, and again, he picked me up as an assistant editor on that movie. So we all moved on as a crew. It wasn't immediate, but it was within a within a month or two. So we all moved on as a crew.

Dave Bullis 10:40
So and then, then, basically, did you keep like moving along with Peter as you, as you from project to project,

Michael Trent 10:46
We did. We did Rob Roy, I for an eye, then we did, I think, then the the next one we did was LA Confidential in in 1996 so those, actually, those three movies that I moved along with Peter. He hired me on three, three movies, and then I went elsewhere after that.

Dave Bullis 11:10
So after you went, you know, I actually am looking at your IMDB right now, and I have to ask, you know, you were the assistant editor on Saving Private Ryan, you know, getting to work with Spielberg and seeing some of you know of the footage they first shot and everything like that. You know, what was it like to actually work on Saving Private Ryan?

Michael Trent 11:28
Oh, well, that was. It was an incredible experience from lots of points of view. First of all, we knew, I'd read the script, so I knew it was going to be an amazing script, an amazing movie, but from a personal point of view, it was an amazing experience. We went from I'd worked on Amistad before that, and we went straight into Saving Private Ryan, but from say, a personal experience point of view, we went from here to Ireland. Took all the equipment with us, and we were editing in a field in Ireland. And then that was for the first three weeks of the for the shooting the opening sequence on the beaches. And then after three weeks, we moved to Hatfield in England, to a facility there, which was an old Aerospace Museum, and the set was built on the on the airfield. So, I mean, everything about that movie was amazing at the time, and we knew it at the time, and we were very excited to work, work on the show.

Dave Bullis 12:36
Did you ever get to actually meet Steven at any point?

Michael Trent 12:40
Yeah, many times. I mean, he would come to editing, usually at lunchtime, and we would be ready for him. We knew it was all set up beforehand. So yeah, I'd be in the room with Spielberg, and he'd be running on the Chem and selecting dailies. So I met him on many occasions. Yeah,

Dave Bullis 12:57
And I mean that obviously one of the most influential directors of all time. I mean, it was just, you know, and again, I the reason I bring that up is because of that he is just, you know, one of the most influential directors of all time. And you work with them afterwards on AI, which is a interesting project I wanted to ask about too. But so, so what was some of the things you took away from working with Spielberg? Was there anything he told you? Was there anything he told you, anything that, maybe you know, that he said that you just sort of like, oh, you know, that's, uh, you know, you know, when you work with people at that level, it's sort of like, you know what I mean, it's, you're looking for something like an a, uh, almost like a quote or or something that have that epiphany, that Aha, moment. Is there anything he sort of said to you that just sort of still sticks with you?

Michael Trent 13:43
No, I mean, I don't really remember anything that that he said. I mean, it was just an observation of somebody that can work, that just has such amazing ideas that can seemingly be manufactured out of nothing. There's one particular story I talk about, and we were on Minority Report, and we had been editing for a while, and Spielberg was away, I think he was in Japan, and he called into the editing room with a note of a picture change to make. And it was not just straightforward. It was fairly complex. It involved three four shots. And he said, I believe it will work better. And remember, he's in a remote location, he's in Japan, and we make the change on the Chem and, well, not unbelievably, because he's Steven Spielberg, but the change worked exactly the way he said it would. And it just said to me that he had some kind of video camera in his head that was able to actually run the footage back and then make editing changes in his own head. And I suppose from that point of view, I was thinking about. Yeah, you can imagining the edit is, is something that I try and do and and that was something that he did, and I suppose that's something that I try, and I try and utilize in my career today, that's a, that's the best way I can answer that question.

Dave Bullis 15:26
And sure, Michael and I wanted to just ask, you know, a follow up in editing as a whole. Are you ever given the script, you know, along with the footage, or are you just given, like, the Script, Script supervisors, notes, so to speak, when you're when you're actually editing films.

Michael Trent 15:41
Now I have this. I have the the line script each day, the live, the pages that were shot the day before come in, and they're marked up from the script supervisor, and I work with the script as I edit.

Dave Bullis 15:54
Okay. I always, you know, like to hear how different people work. And, you know, I've always wondered that, because I know I was just reading about how sometimes, you know, scripts are so carefully guarded. And you know what I mean, and it's just sometimes the editor, the editors, you know, they'll just get, you know, notes like that. Or sometimes they'll actually be given the full script so they can actually just go, you know, read through it. And I've worked with different line producers too, who sometimes say, Look, I get the script. I don't even read it, Dave, because I just, I just see different things like, you know, are pulled out of it, and you know what I mean, and they just go from there. So, so when you were working with, you know, Spielberg, you worked with them again on AI, and I believe that that film was started by Kubrick, right, and then it was finished by Spielberg.

Michael Trent 16:36
That's my understanding. I wasn't really involved in, the Kubrick end of it, I understand that Spielberg and Kubrick had had a conversation over a number of years about the making of AI, but I wasn't involved in the details of how that came about. I do remember that we had some footage that Kubrick had shot, and it was footage of of ocean waves, and it was going to be used as an element in the in the submerged Manhattan sequence. But as far as the the transition of the director, being Kubrick to Spielberg, I wasn't really involved in that

Dave Bullis 17:17
I see, and because I was just always fascinated. Because, you know, I heard so much about that movie, and you know that it was started by Kubrick and then had to be finished by Spielberg and and everything else. And, you know, I actually saw it in a in a film class I took in college, and I actually liked it a lot more than other people did. Because some people felt it would felt like two different movies coming together, when I always said that's probably what it was, because it was with Kubrick and Spielberg. But again, I just wanted to ask about that, because, again, you know, you that was a follow up to Spielberg. So just to sort of, you know, take this in, into your career trajectory, you know, when you actually went from an assistant editor to the actual editor, you know, you worked on some pretty cool projects. And I want to talk about, you know, just how you became the editor. So what point did you realize that you were ready just to take on all the editing responsibilities and be sort of be like that guy, so to speak. You know, when did you realize that you were, you were finally ready to do all that?

Michael Trent 18:18
I well, it was in, it was in 2004 when we finished the terminal. And what happened? I mean, you touched on it a little bit earlier. When you move countries, you have to restart your career. And that was definitely my experience, as much as I was lucky to be picked up by Peter hones it. I had to spread out my, you know, find new contacts. So essentially, I did have to restart my career. And even, even when I went with in with the Spielberg's editing crew, you know, they didn't know me and and I really had to sort of prove myself. So if I'd done, you know, eight years in England, and I did another 10 years, eight or 10 years here, I really felt, after that amount of time, I was ready. I mean, usually, if I stayed in England, maybe I would have made the jump sooner. But because I really felt I had to restart my career in the United States, I was I was ready, probably sooner than 2004 at the end of the terminal. Few things happened is that I moved up within the ranks of that editing room. One of the assistants who'd been with Michael Khan before me, moved on to edit himself. So I was able to to move up into a into the first assistant position. And I felt that I did the terminal and Munich as as the first as as well, actually one of the first assistants. So at that point, I had gone as. Far as I was going to go in that editing room. And I felt, again, maybe fatalist. I felt that I could do it. And again, I just decided that was what I was going to do. But in actual facts, it was, it was, I did finish the terminal. I went and cut a picture, and then I was out of work for a while, and they offered me to come back on Munich, which I did, and then I've been editing ever since then, on my own.

Dave Bullis 20:29
So when you went out on your own, you know, did you have a reel with you and say to different projects, did you say, Listen, I can I am, you know, ready to be the editor now? I mean, so. And also, at that point, did you have like, a lot of your own tools, meaning, you know, at your house, do you have, like, your own editing bay set up and and you can work that way?

Michael Trent 20:50
I have done, I sometimes have had I cut on my laptop, which is, you know, I'm talking to on my laptop right now. I have editing software on my laptop. I don't always like to do it, because I like the separation between home and work, but I do have some equipment at home from time to time. But to go back to your your previous question, first part of your question, I cut a couple of short films, and one of them, I cut on film, and then one of them, I cut on a laptop using software called FileMaker Pro, and that I used those movies as a calling card, and they helped me get editing jobs. They certainly helped me get my first feature length movie, which was a picture called My Bollywood bride, or also known as my far away bride, but I don't have an editing set up in my house, no.

Dave Bullis 21:52
So actually, that is a question I want to ask you, too. Michael is about actual editing. You know, when you're actually on a film set or you're actually in the editing lab, you know, working on this. You know, 99% of the films now are all digital. They're shot, you know, with, you know, probably one of, you know, 20 cameras. But you know what I mean, but like, versions of cameras, but they're all, they're all digital. You know, you're getting either different cards, or you're getting hard drives, you're getting something. So what do you edit on now, is there, like, a specific editing software, like Avid premiere, that you actually added on?

Michael Trent 22:25
Yes, Avid Media Composer. I've used, as I say, I've used Final Cut Pro, but not for a long time, but I've used premiere very minimally, although I'd like to use it more, but my main tool is Avid Media Composer.

Dave Bullis 22:40
And why is, is because I've heard other people using Avid. I'm like a premier guy. I actually just downloaded avid free. I don't know if you know this job, but avid just released a complete 100% legit free editing software called Avid Media Composer free. And it's sort of like a light version of Media Composer, the pro grade version. And I'm just, you know, I get in there and play around a little bit. It's, I'm so used to premiere that it's a little there's obviously a learning curve. But you know what makes average like, basically, what, what most pro editors want to use?

Michael Trent 23:12
Well, that's a tough question. I don't, I mean, I use it because it's always been the system that's been available. I'm not sure that the tool, I mean, I've used, I've done the opposite to you. I've actually downloaded the free version of Premiere, so I played around with Premier in that sense. But the most honest answer is that I use added Media Composer because it's, it's what's been available to me, and that's made me get used to it, and that now that that's the reason I'm the most comfortable with the with that system, it's just that's the one that was presented to me.

Dave Bullis 23:52
You know, when I was actually teaching editing courses at a college, which is a whole nother story, by the way, Michael, how I got into that we had, actually, we had a meeting because one professor wanted me to put in Vegas studios. The other professor wanted Avid Media Composer, the other professor wanted just Windows Movie Maker, and then I won a premiere. So it's kind of like, well, how do you please everybody, right? And so the answer was, we ended up just going with Premiere. And when Windows Movie Makers free anyway, so, and I think somebody else wanted Final Cut. I think this is what it was. So basically, you know, the one professor came to me and she goes, Oh, I've worked in different productions and this and that, and she, she was getting info from other editors. She wasn't actually an editor. Actually, I was the only person that's ever actually edited a movie in the whole room, which was actually which was actually kind of funny, but everybody else just heard things like, Oh, this is what this guy used, and this is what that guy used. So she was on productions, and she was like, Well, I heard from my guy that they only use advid, and that's that, and that you shouldn't be using anything else. And I always like to ask, because I always go back to that, because it was actually kind of funny. Me how we're all in a room and we're all just sort of having a pissing contest on which editing software to use, right? So it's good. I always, that's why I always ask that question. And whenever the students, when I actually whatever, whenever I would teach, they would go out into the field, most of them would find that people, did you still use avid and then. But I always said, you know, don't worry about an actual software worry about the principles of editing.

Michael Trent 25:25
Well, that's, that's, that's absolutely correct, and that's the reason I stick with it with Avid although, say, I'm certainly not against trying out premiere. It's just that I want to concentrate on the storytelling aspect of editing, rather than the sort of, how do you make a dissolve, which button do you push? There was a learning curve in the transition from editing on film to electronic editing for me. And I spent, you know, a while getting used to working with the AVID so once I was used to it, it's sort of, it's the devil, you know. And as I say, just I want to concentrate on the storytelling aspect, right? Storytelling aspect rather than the actual software.

Dave Bullis 26:04
Yeah, I completely agree 100% it's all about the story and telling the best story possible. And I wanted to talk to you also, just, you know about the hatred, obviously, you know, I've been interviewing everybody in the cast and crew of this movie. I actually talked to a friend of yours, Thomas Fleming, Oh, yeah. And Thomas was like, oh, make sure you talk to Michael Trent. That guy's amazing. And I was like, You know what? He's actually next on the list for me to talk to. So here we are. But I wanted to ask about the hatred and about, you know, editing that. You know, editing that. So, you know, how did you go about, you know, getting the gig on this movie.

Michael Trent 26:44
Well, it was a situation where I was I knew the director, the director and I met at elementary school, not to say that we met when we were 8, 9, 10, 11, our sons went to the same elementary school here in Studio City and in in, well, certainly the Studio City area, whenever you meet parents, says there's lots of people that are involved in the film industry. And Mike and I were just talking, just standing around, and, you know, we ask each other what we did, and that was a number of years ago. So I met Mike through our sons at school, and had talked for, well, probably a couple of years about filmmaking, and then he asked me to edit the short film of the hatred, which was called Hush. And then we had a certain amount of success with that, and he asked me to edit the feature after that, so I didn't actually have to go out and get the job in this particular instance, because I already knew the director.

Dave Bullis 27:59
And, yeah, Mikey Kehoe, he's, he's everywhere, right? I mean, by the way, do you know that the trailer for the film has over 10 million views?

Michael Trent 28:07
I did hear that I got Mike. I didn't know it was as much as 10 million, but Mike Kehoe called me the other day and said we were up to 7.4 million views. So that's just incredible, that we're at 10 million views. Yeah,

Dave Bullis 28:20
it's, I actually saw it go over, I think either on Friday night or last night, which is Saturday. I I saw it roll over to 10 million. And I was like, my god, this is, you know, this is like a juggernaut. So I wanted to ask, you know, Mike, did you? Did you edit the trailer as well?

Michael Trent 28:37
No, I edited a version of the trailer, but I believe the trailer was made at through Lionsgate. I believe that's correct. But no, I wasn't involved in editing of the trailer.

Dave Bullis 28:52
Okay, I know sometimes the editors don't. Actually, there's a whole different trailer editor. And I just wanted to ask, you know, but so, you know, it's amazing that's over 10 million views. And, you know, obviously, when, when this comes out on September the 12th, you know, I'm actually, you know, interested to see, you know how you know, you know how you know, everyone responds. And you know, because, again, like Mike and I were saying, he wishes the movie was coming out, you know, this weekend, because he's like, you know, all these things are happening. And he goes, now we have a, we have a whole nother month or so before it's actually out. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, Mike, I wanted to ask you about editing the hatred when you're actually editing a horror film like this. Do you find that it there's a lot more of I mean, obviously timing is everything, right? So is there more of a timing when you're doing something like the hatred with horror, rather than maybe something more like, I guess, comedic, like, like gem in the holograms, which you also edited. You know? I mean, obviously they're, they're two. Very different films. So, so obviously, is there a lot of like, what are some of the nuances that you have to sort of go through when you're editing two for two different films, just like that, just as an example?

Michael Trent 30:10
Yeah, there's definitely a difference. I mean, without with a movie like The hatred especially, I mean the opening of the movie? Well, the opening of the movie was, I edited with a certain amount of suspense. When we introduced the girls, I edited it, let's say more of a normal movie. But when the the the entity starts to take over, the take over the take over the House. But basically you edit, to put it simply, to try and build tension and suspense the shots, I just keep the shots longer and hold on things a little bit more than I would certainly with a in an action movie or with a with a comedy. Obviously, comedy is very much tied up with timing as well. But if I was to put give you the broad strokes is I generally hold the shots longer to try and build tension and suspense with a horror movie.

Dave Bullis 31:14
So do you sometimes think that? You know, and when I was getting into editing, I made the mistake of cutting too much, and there was actually a professional editor who once told me, she said, Dave, when you cut too much, like you're doing right now, it gets a sense like there's a fight back and forth, like a power struggle. And I started because when I was at when what I was doing was I was cutting on the dialog, so as soon as you were done speaking, cut, go to the other person, and it was like, You know what I mean, like it was, and she goes, you see how that feels? Like I almost like an argument. And I said, Yeah, I get that. Now. I totally get that. And you know that that's some of the things that I picked up too over the years. That's why I imagine. You know, when you're when you're doing horror, you have to hold on to those shots just a little bit more, hold on to those edits, just a little bit more, because you are trying to build that, that tension, suspense.

Michael Trent 32:01
That's it. That's absolutely right. I mean, there was one particular instance in the in the in the hatred, and it's where Alice walks across the room before she's about to go down into the into the cellar. And we started that shot and kept it long. It was just so she could do the whole walk across. She goes past a a wall in in the room, but we kept the the whole length of the shot, and then also down the stairs. The whole piece was kept almost at full length. And it's for that exact reason. It was it, you know, just to build, to build that suspense. But definitely, I mean, another example I can, I can think of, is this was in another movie, I think, but it was a similar kind of genre, but a shadow appears on the wall, and rather than cut when she walks through the door, you start on the where the shadow first appears on the wall, and hold that shot all the way through to when the character walks through the door, and again, with the hope and the aim of creating suspense.

Dave Bullis 32:59
So what are some of like the one of the final things that you hope just to talk about the hatred, just to sort of like, come full circle, you know, what are some of the things that you you hope people take away from the hatred after they got to after a viewing of the movie?

Michael Trent 33:12
Well, I hope they, I hope they're scared, and I hope they talk about the movie afterwards. If they, if, if we put them, the audience, on the audience, on the edge of their seat, then I believe that we've done our jobs, as long as it's, you know, they they enjoy the movie for those reasons, say, and get scared then, then I'll be very happy.

Dave Bullis 33:38
So, you know, Mike just, sort of just continuing to talk about editing, you know, what are some of the tips or principles that you've learned over the years, you know, that you would, you could, you know, just sort of give the listeners who are maybe starting to edit their movies or or maybe just to something that, you know, they could use if they're trying to edit their own movie.

Michael Trent 34:00
It's a good question. I think it probably goes largely, goes back to what we were just talking about. Is that you want to say, first of all, read this, read the scripts, or read the scene, and then decide what the emotion of the scene is. If the the emotion of the scene is a fight, then you would edit, just as you described, you know, cutting very quickly on the dialog lines, or even on the dialog to give the impression that one person is cutting the other person off. If it's a romantic scene, again, you you'd roll those shots out a little bit longer to to create that, that romantic atmosphere. Comedy probably speaks for itself is you've got to cut the right reaction after the right amount of time, after the punchline, and hold on the punchline for the right amount of time. I think that these are the things that I've learned the most. Because I think that a lot of editors. Might have that tendency, as you just described, to cut too much. The other thing that you might I often think about is, is cutting to reaction shots, and what is that person thinking? What is the opposing person thinking as that dialog line is being spoken, and is it, is it relevant to cut to their reaction? And I think it's all about generating the emotion that's intended by the writer, you know, that's written down. So I try and emulate what was originally imagined by the writer.

Dave Bullis 35:42
And you're always, you know, also talk about reading the script and about, you know, finding the essence of that scene. You know, what's the scene really about? You know, I've you hear that a lot, too, in writing, and you realize just how closely involved editing and writing are, because, you know, you're trying to build that same atmosphere. And now you're doing it with the actual footage, while writers, you know, you're doing it and trying to get people to imagine this in their head, you know, trying to get, like, this little this, these images, and how everything would pan out in their head. So, you know, they're, they're very closely related. And, you know, finding that core of the senior what's the scene really about? You know, maybe it's not really about a fight, that's just the after. That's really the, the sort of causation from the actual, you know, I guess I want to say core of the core of the problem, if you, if you will,

Michael Trent 36:29
That's, that's, that's correct. I think that you do work very, very, very much with the sort of the writers intention in mind, or at least my interpretation of what the writer's intention was, and I edit with that in mind, for sure.

Dave Bullis 36:50
Yeah, and you know, that's something to When, when, whenever you're editing anything, I think you have to ask yourself those questions. You know, you have to ask yourself those you know, why are we even? Why is this scene even in here? You know, obviously, because somebody once told me about it, about, you could tell the difference between a good editor a great editor by how, how ruthless I'll cut stuff. And there was this. There was this one time a friend of mine was on, was telling me that it took them two days to get this scene right. And the editor said to them, Look, you got to cut it. And my friend said, who was the director? He goes, but it took us two days to shoot this stupid thing. And the editor said, Yeah, but it has, it adds absolutely nothing to the movie. Mm, hmm.

Michael Trent 37:33
I think that that's that. That's That's absolutely right. I think that as an editor, you also have to look at the edit with the big picture in mind. You you maybe edit a character, but then also edit that character with the whole story arc of the movie in mind. So if there's something that's going to pay off later and and there's a look maybe that you can hold on to, not to tele necessarily, telegraph to the audience, but it could be something that say, you hold on a shot earlier in the movie, which then pays off later. But I think that definitely you have to edit with the whole movie in mind. Yeah, that's very true. And that also that includes that if a scene is not giving anything to the movie, even if it took two days to start, then you have to, you have to cut the scene and and and be ruthless about it. If, in the big picture, that's, that's what's best for the movie.

Dave Bullis 38:33
You know, I always watched Deleted Scenes off of some of my favorite movies on like blu ray or DVD, and when I watch them, I can go, oh, you know what? Now I see why it's a deleted scene, because literally, it added nothing to the movie. It added absolutely nothing. And if you actually put it in there, what if, you know, drug it down, yeah, because you don't want people in the theaters be checking their watches going, Oh my God, when is this thing going to be over?

Michael Trent 38:55
That's exactly right. And that's, that's, you know, that's the hope that we can judge what those scenes are and and take them out for the good of the movie.

Dave Bullis 39:06
Yeah. And very true. And that's where you want to make sure the movie just sort of flows all together. And I think that's what we're all going for, you know, even when we're writing a script or, you know, I'm actually, you know, we're all trying to make sure that we're a servicing the film as a whole, rather than anyone's, you know, ego, so to speak, and to, you know, always making sure that the movie is just flowing together and not to just to just disjointed. If I could actually talk, I would actually help disjointed. So Michael, we've been talking for about, you know, 35 minutes now. So in just in parting, is there anything that you wanted to talk about that we didn't get a chance to or maybe just sort of any final thoughts to put a period at the end of this whole conversation.

Michael Trent 39:58
Only that. Uh. You know, I've been, I've been doing this, this job, for a number of years, probably more than than I care to remember. But it's a I love the job to be, to be an editor is, is really, for me, a satisfying profession. And as the cliche goes, if you enjoy what you do, then you never work a day in your life. And that, for me, about editing is absolutely true. It's it's a passion of mine and something that I enjoy every day. If that's something I can offer up as a not that it's always easy. There's periods of unemployment, but if you, if you stick at it, then it's a very satisfying career.

Dave Bullis 40:48
Yeah. And that's, you know, a good way to sort of put it, any a period at the end of this conversation, is you have to do what you like. You have to do what you love again. If I could talk Michael would actually be helpful, but, but, yeah, you have to do what you love. And you know that that's key to life. You know, I, you know, myself included, sometimes I've just done things or work jobs that you just hate. You're like, What the hell am I doing to myself here? So you have to, you have to really love this business to to make sure you're actually, you know, you want to do it. And there's a lot of tests in the way that actually make sure you're like, do you sure you want to do this? Yeah, so, Michael, where people find you out online?

Michael Trent 41:26
I'm sorry, what was that?

Dave Bullis 41:27
Where can people find you out online?

Michael Trent 41:29
Well, I have my IMDB page. I have a Vimeo page also, really just Michael Trent, film editor, Google that and a bunch of my stuff comes up. My LinkedIn page, my IMDB page, the name of my agent, and my Vimeo page also come up. But yeah, Google, Google my name and film editor, and that's my online presence.

Dave Bullis 42:00
And I will link to all of that. Everyone in the show notes at davebullis.com Twitter, it's at dave_bullis, and the podcast is at dbpodcast. Michael Trent, I want to say thank you so much for coming on. And you know, I'm looking forward to The Hatred.

Michael Trent 42:15
Great and thank you for having me.