IFH 799: What Every Indie Filmmaker Can Learn from a $5K Zombie Movie with Bojan Dulabic

Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
Joining me today is Bojan Dulabic. Bojan is a Vancouver filmmaker, and he just released the zombie feature film project eugenics Bojan how are you Sir?

Bojan Dulabic 2:04
Good, good. Thank you for having me, my friend.

Dave Bullis 2:07
Oh, it's my pleasure. You know, we met through Jason Brubaker. I end up meeting so many people because of Jason. I should really give him a producer credit for this podcast.

Bojan Dulabic 2:17
It's he's a great resource, man. I've written a few articles for his blog. And, yeah, he's great guy, great guy, yeah.

Dave Bullis 2:26
And the article that got us introduced, so to speak, was the article he wrote called how I made a zombie film for $5,000 and at first, when I saw that, you know, I thought Jason may have wrote that. And I was like, wow, Jason made another zombie film. And I said, Oh, wait, it's this guy, Bojan, he just wrote it. I started to learn more about you. So, you know, that's what we're going to talk about on this podcast, is, you know, I'm sure a lot of people probably saw that and was thinking, My God, how do you make a zombie film for $5,000 let alone a feature zombie film, you know, $5,000 so, Bojan, get started, you know, how did you get into the film industry?

Bojan Dulabic 2:57
Me, um, yeah, oh, man, that goes back a long time. You know how every filmmaker has a story. You know, when I was seven, my daddy bought me a camera, and, you know, I started filming, and I started to think about that. How did it actually happen with me? And I realized it actually goes as far back as when I was five years old. I'm originally from Bosnia, which is in Eastern Europe, and my mom actually had her own store, and in there, she also had a video store at the time. And so obviously, you know, I was, I think I was around five, I started watching movies, and it was all Hollywood movies, and I loved it, right? And so in 1990 there was a war in Bosnia, and we moved to Germany, lived there as refugees. And I just, you know, I just love movies. I but not just movies. I mean, I think every kid loves movies. I love to watch making off, you know. And you know, back then, we're talking early 90s, there was no Internet, there was no YouTube, you know. So finding out how movies were made was not that easy. So luckily, there was some shows, so I would watch as much as I could. And then in 1998 we moved to Croatia, because I'm Croatian from Bosnia. So we moved there, and we lived there for three years, and then we moved to Canada. And it was in Canada, in high school, Winnipeg, City of Winnipeg, when I where I really developed an interest for acting and for filmmaking. And it was, it was in grade 10. And, yeah, I just loved it. I, you know, it started with simple slide shows, and I did a, I did my first short film in think it was my grade 12 class, English class. It was a creative project. And, you know, I was like, I don't feel like doing another paper. And I was like, Hey, man, can I? Can I make a movie? And my teacher is like, sure, yeah, why not? And so I did. And that was really when I started doing it, and got more and more into it. Then I started doing videography for actually, my my the school division that my high school was part of, because. At that time they they saw some of my stuff that I was doing, and because for whatever project, school project that you know, if I could do a video about it, I would, you know. And so my teachers, kind of, you know, gotten to know my my filmmaking abilities and all that stuff. And so it started there, and then I went to the University of Winnipeg studying theater. Didn't do any, I didn't take any film courses or anything, everything when it comes to filmmaking, was pretty much self taught, you know, by making a lot of mistakes, you know, yeah, and you know how it goes. And then in 2007 I moved to Vancouver, where I am now, to, you know, pursue acting and filmmaking. So, yeah, and, you know, just kept doing short films, you know, my my YouTube channel, web shows, you know, that kind of stuff. And then in 2012 I finally decided, Okay, I'm gonna make my first feature, which was a comedy at the time. And that one I actually made for $4,000 it was even less, but it was a lot simpler. It was said mostly in one location, and, you know, talking heads kind of comedy. And, yeah, when that one was done, because I'm a, you know, zombie nerd and sci fi and horror geek, you know, I was like, okay, you know what? I think I can do this initially. I actually, my goal was to make this movie for $3,000 but, you know, I realized, okay, that's, I'm pushing it with five, but with three, I'm really that's just ridiculous. So, yeah, then, you know, in when was it early 20 late 2013 early 2014 around there, I had this idea for, you know, this, the zombie flick, and started writing. And by the summer, or was it, yeah, By late summer of 2014 I had my, you know, first draft, and then I started, you know, started thinking about casting and all that. Started casting in October ish of 2014, and November 1 we started shooting. So it was, it was very quick process. And, you know, then editing took longer. But also, if you want to add one more crazy element to the mix, I also got married three months ago. So, yeah, exactly. So, you know, obviously, you know, that's important, and in many ways that's more important than the movie, you know. But I'm a filmmaker, so you know, we're crazy people. So yeah, I managed to, you know, make all that work. And you know, I have an amazing wife who just, I can't thank her enough for, you know, putting up with me. So, yeah, that's kind of how I got into it, you know,

Dave Bullis 7:54
You know, that was pretty quick from, you know, having that initial idea to actually getting, you know, start shooting the the film. And you know, if there's one thing you do need when making a film, it's another crazy element to work against you, right? Yeah. So how long did it take you to actually write the script? Then, from, you know, from concept to actually writing a full page screenplay,

Bojan Dulabic 8:14
I would say, took about until I had my first draft. I'd say about seven months. Six, seven months around there, yeah, once I had the first draft, the rest was very, you know, relatively quick. But, you know, getting it up there to the first draft, yeah, I'd say about that around there.

Dave Bullis 8:31
So when you were writing the screenplay, did you try to, like, immerse yourself into zombie films? Some of the other guests I've had on the show, one of the things that I've noticed is, whatever their theme or genre they're writing for all they will watch and read about is just that one thing. So I imagine, if you use that method, all you were watching were zombie films. Now, did you? Did you follow that method?

Bojan Dulabic 8:53
Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, as my wife will testify, because she hates horror, it was, yes, I do the exact same thing. I mean, I, you know, I bought a book about zombies, and I, you know what, re watch pretty much every zombie movie I have. And, you know, whatever else is on Netflix, and, you know, and you know, out there, because you have to. I mean, you really have to, I mean, to me, a zombie flick, a good zombie flick, it's never, it's not about the zombies, right? It's always about something else. And then obviously, use the zombies to tell a story. So they're more a storytelling device. So to me, it was really the main thing was, okay, what is this movie about? Figuring out what's my angle, you know what? Because, I mean, zombie movies have been done to death, obviously, and we all love it, but there's one every week coming out. So how, what can I offer that's, you know, a little unique, that's little, you know, outside the box.

So you know, that was my main thing, as I was watching, like I said, all these these zombie flakes and reading and all that. And once I had that, you know idea, and once I figured that out, then the rest was a lot easier. You know, still wasn't easy, but it was easier. You know,

Dave Bullis 10:29
Yeah, yeah, I know exactly what you mean, and you're right though. You know, there is seemingly a new zombie film coming out every week. You know, I was just talking about it to my one friend, and you know, he's not in the film industry, but he watches a ton of films. And he's like, You know what? I'm so sick of zombies. He's like, Dave, I don't want to watch any zombie films. I ended up trying to talk him into watching a zombie film after that, because actually, and one of the things that I've you know as producing movies, I've noticed is, is that they always ask, you know, what is your unfair advantage? You know, if you're pitching to somebody, you know, what is your unfair advantage? You know, what is our unique selling position? You know? And that's something that you were, you know, you've kind of hit on there, you know, because you have to make it, what's going to be unique about your you know, your film. You know, anyone listening to this, I'm not even talking about making a zombie, so I'm talking about making any film, you know. How are you going to make it unique that so it stands out from the crowd. And, you know, obviously bullying. One of the things you did was, you know, you know, you put your own style into it. You know, I don't know if it words in your mouth, but, you know, actually, why don't I just ask you. So what are some of the things that you that you wanted to make sure you got in there that made it sort of your style, made it your movie, that you could help stand out?

Bojan Dulabic 11:40
Oh, sure, yeah, I mean, you know, growing up the way I did, you know, moving around a lot and be, you know, being part of different cultures and and all that stuff was great on one hand, because it really gave me insight into just, just humanity, right? I mean, just understanding how the world works, right? But on the other hand, it also made me the constant outsider, you know, I mean, as much as I tried to fit in, you know, it's difficult, right? So that's kind of, you know, what I tried to bring to this. It's, you know, interestingly enough, if, well, if, if I can use that word, for lack of a better word, you know, the things that are happening lately, just around the world and all that it, you know, it really seems like, like a zombie flake in one hand, in the sense that, you know, one of the things, for example, I tried to accomplish in this movie was, I'm trying to, I'm trying to say without giving away, you know, plot lines. But essentially, a lot of it deals with information. You know, what's happening, you know? Person A tells you this, person B tells you this, Person C tells you this, you know, and all that stuff. And you're kind of stuck in the middle going, I don't know what's going on, you know? So that was kind of what I tried to bring into it a certain a safe confusion. I watched an interview with Tarantino a long time ago where he talked about, I think he was talking about Reservoir Dogs or pulp or Pulp Fiction, one of the two. And he was talking about this concept that he calls a safe confusion, where you know, you want the audience to be confused in terms of, okay, what's going on, but at the same time, it has to be safe in the sense you haven't lost them, right as you, as you unfold the story, you know, you want them to be safe and keep watching, but yet, there's a certain amount of confusion they need to have, because that's when they'll they'll engage more. So that's what I tried to do with the way I structured the story, which, again, without giving too much away, it, it's a bit different. And, you know, it's not as simple, okay, from A to B kind of a scenario. So on one hand, I try to do that with the structure of the story. And I try to, like I said, I try to talk about real, well, quote, unquote, real things that do happen in the world, which, you know, the way the world is being portrayed by, whether it's the media, by just individuals by, you know, whoever it is, because I do believe, you know, that we live in in, like said, interesting times where we have so much access to technology. I mean, it is crazy, man. I'm sitting right now, you know, you don't see it, but I'm sitting in front of two screens. I got my tablet, I got my phone. There's way too much technology in here. You know, it would take me five seconds to look up anything, whatever I'm interested in, you know. So that's great on one hand, but on the other hand, there's also, I feel this, this confusion as to, you know, what is going on in the world, you know, like I said, whether it's politics, whether whatever it is, it doesn't really matter. You know. I. It's not my job as a filmmaker to tell you what's going on, because I don't, I don't think that's what we should be doing, but it's simply my job to talk about these things. And yeah, you make up your mind. I don't, you know, it's I respect, you know, whatever opinions people have. But yeah, if that, if that makes any sense, that's kind of what I try to bring into this to make it more than just a, you know, just, you know, just a dumb zombie flick. Because, like I said, I love zombies, but it shouldn't just be about the zombies. It's, it should be more than that, you know,

Dave Bullis 15:34
Yeah, definitely. And, you know, I think The Walking Dead, you know, hit touches on that theme. And then, you know, obviously Romero, he really set the tone for all of it with night of the living dead. And, you know, then he went into into consumerism with Dawn of the Dead. And then we went into the whole day of the dead. I mean, I actually just re watched Day of the Dead A while ago, and it actually was a lot better than I remembered. I remember, you know, in high school watching three of those. And I remember liking dawn the most by far and away, and I came back and revisited day to day recently, and I was like, wow, this is a lot better than I remembered it. Maybe I was just too stupid as a kid. I don't know.

Bojan Dulabic 16:08
No, absolutely no. I absolutely agree. I mean, interestingly enough, I mean, Ramiro is obviously one of my top zombie Well, I think he is the top zombie God, you know, film God. But interesting enough, it was actually diary of the dead. I don't know if you've seen that one that, I mean, I've seen all of them, but that one was really the one that stood out to me, and the one that, I would say, probably inspired me the most in terms of, you know, the what I want to talk about, because it does deal with different, sorry, similar themes, just in the sense that, you know, everything's well, it's slightly different. But, you know, technology plays a big part. And, and, you know, a certain like I said, confusion as to what's going on, and manipulation. Yeah, that's the right word. So, yeah, no, I agree. You know, Romero was a big influence on me as well, you know? I mean, there's plenty of them. If we step slightly out of the zombie genre, Robert Rodriguez is my, one of my top guys, just in terms of executing a movie. I mean, I'm sure I'm not the first one say this when I heard way, way back that, you know, when he made El Mariachi for $7,000 you know, I was like, Really, get out of here. You know, I was, I read it somewhere in the book. This was before I, you know, started, really started on my filmmaking journey. And I was like, Good God, man, if he made that back in 92 Why shouldn't I be able to do, you know, my version of it, by today's standards, which should be better, because technology is better. It's cheaper, you know, all that stuff. So that's really, you know, when, when this seed was planted in my head that, you know, I don't need it. Yes, it would be great if I had $100,000 a million dollars, you know, whatever, right? I don't so, but I, I'm pretty confident I can, I can do this, you know what I mean,

Dave Bullis 18:07
Yeah, we as filmmakers today, you know, Jason and I talked about this too, was we have so much information being thrown at us, and a lot of the times, you know, we end up not actually making a film. We talk about making a film. We sit there and we research every camera package. And you know, this boy on there's a new camera package coming out every other day. It's, you know, red is over there, and canon and Panasonic, and here's a black magic. And, I mean, it's just, it's a never ending deluge of new camera packages. And now you spend more time reading about cameras and lighting kits than you do actually writing the screenplay and going, Hey, wait a minute. Maybe I should make this. But wait, first I got to look at the new camera packages. I think, I think road just released a new audio kit. I gotta look at that, you know. And I think that's sort of, it's, it's paralysis through analysis. That's the best way to describe it. And, you know, that's, but it's, but it's good, though, that you read Rodriguez's book, and then, you know, realize, hey, you know, why couldn't I make this zombie film for $5,000

Bojan Dulabic 19:08
No, absolutely. And to go back to the whole gear fetish, as I like to call it, absolutely, I agree. And I think we all suffer from that. I do too, absolutely. You know, you know this, this evolution of technology in terms of, you know, filmmaking related technology is amazing. But yes, at some point you have to stop yourself and say, You know what? That's great. And yes, in reality, if I make this movie today, if I had waited a year longer, certain aspects would of it would probably be easier to make, but then you're in this endless cycle where, yeah, you'll never make anything, because, you know, things are always getting better easier. I mean, for this film, I used the Black Magic Pocket Cinema Camera, which, and I, you know, I really wanted to use it for this flick, because big, you know, because of various things. And we can certainly talk about. That too.

But you know, if I had waited, for example, until now, you know, I could have used the micro. What is it? The black magic micro studio camera. They got this really small one, which would have allowed me to do even fancier shots, you know what I mean. So yeah, you you can get crazy just thinking about all that stuff. So yeah, it's it's great. And but on one hand, you have to stop yourself and say, yeah, do this now. And yeah, when, yeah, going back to Rodriguez. I mean, you know, when I, you know, read about him in a different book, and started reading his book and all that stuff, you know, the one thing, and Jason talks about this too, the one thing that you know, certainly filmmakers. Who are, you know, beginning, beginner filmmakers. There are certain myths that we we start to believe, which is, you know, well, you have to have, whatever, a million dollars to make a movie. Or, you know, you have to, you have to have 20 people on crew, you know, to do all this blah, blah. And don't get me wrong, it certainly, you know, there are specific budgets for specific types of movies that you should have and all that, however, you know, if you get creative, you can make, I'm not going to say you can make everything work, because there are certain things that really, you know probably not going to work, but most things you can and, you know, like Rodriguez said in an interview and in his book, you know, take stock of what you have. You know, take stock of the relationships you have built and what do you have access to, and make a movie about that. You know, I did that for my first movie. I did that for this movie. And I mean, you should always challenge yourself, and, you know, grow so, you know that's that's obviously important. But don't be afraid, man. Just get out and do it. And yeah, you're going to make mistakes. You know, you, in my opinion, the best thing I could have done for this movie and my other movie was not to think everything through, you know what I mean? Because a lot of times we become our own enemy when we start dissecting everything, you know? I mean, you need to have a game plan Absolutely. But there are certain things where you'll just have to deal with it if it occurs or, you know, as it unfolds, um, because you don't have all the answers. I mean, good God, man, I've, you know, I've been on set as an actor, on professional sets, and I always love to observe the crew, because, you know, that's the filmmaker in me, and you think they have all the answers with with millions of dollars of budgets, no. So sometimes you just take things as they are, but don't be afraid to just dive in there and, you know, get your feet wet.

Dave Bullis 23:06
Yeah, very true. You know, oftentimes we think, you know, we have to have this large amount of money to do things. And the key, I think, is, if we are going to set out to make a movie and we're going to fund it ourselves, or even crowdfund, or even crowdfund, or even crowdfund, you know, a certain amount of money. I think the script has to be written that way on purpose, meaning that, you know, we're not going to be able to do all these wonderful special effects unless either a you know how to do it personally, like you as the as the director, or whoever know how to do that. And I've seen filmmakers do that. They, they're special effects guys by trade. So all the VFX stuff looks amazing, you know, all the bold time stuff. And then on the flip side of that, you know, they're hoping to, you know, maybe farm it out, maybe going to somewhere like Upwork, or somewhere to find somebody, maybe in like, you know, India, or something that could do it for a cheaper price. But, you know, barring that, you know, I think if you are going to write, you know, make a movie. And let's just say we have $1,000 to spend, like, kind of like, what Mark Duplass was recommending, just go making movies as cheap as possible to learn how to make movies we should make that, you know, we should write. Hey, listen, what do I have access to? I have access to my car, my house, this woods next to me. I can use my aunt Susie's house, you know, how am I going to figure how can I make this into a movie that you know is going to keep audiences engaged? Well, maybe I don't have enough for 90 minutes. Maybe I have enough for 20 minutes, so maybe I should make a short film instead and just build off from there.

Bojan Dulabic 24:36
Absolutely, absolutely I agree with everything. I mean, that's, you know, that's exactly what I tried to do on this one. You know, what I really wanted to do on this one that I didn't do on the first one was having more actors, having more locations, right? I really wanted to step up the production value on that side. But, of course, you know, there. No budget, really, for those things. So I knew, Okay, I have access to certain places, you know, I shot at my brother's place. I shot at my buddy's place. You know, I had access to a studio, so I was able to shoot some stuff there. And, you know, for example, you talked about VFX. I'm not a professional VFX guy. However, I am actually getting more and more into it, but I knew that, okay, I can do certain things with, you know, with VFX and and I do talk about this. I think I talked about that in the article as well. For example, I used video copilots plugins for After Effects, and they allowed me to animate, you know, jets and drones and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, create certain shots that I couldn't have gotten otherwise, not with my budget, right? So, you know, understanding that, okay, I can bring this to the game. And I think I talk about this during the article, I, you know, made use of stock footage, which, in my opinion, stock footage when used properly and sparingly and all that. There's nothing wrong with it. I know there's filmmakers who shy away from it, but to me, if using somebody else's music, what's the difference? It's somebody else's material. But like I said, as long as it supports your story and it makes sense, and you know, you're not using it every every two minutes or so, nothing wrong with it. So I made use of that. So I understood all these things as I was writing the, you know, the script and the way I structured the story. I also structured it purposely that way, because, like I said, I wanted more actors. And there's, there's quite a few actors in this one, but I don't have the budget to pay them, you know, but I figured, well, if I, if I only use actors for one, two, maybe three days at the most. I think that can work, right? So I structured the script that way, where you know, that's what ended up happening, because at the end of the day, you know you have to, you have to understand that, you know you can't abuse other people. You know what I mean? I mean, yes, this is my dream, this is my passion and all that, but that's mine. It's not others. You know, for other people, that's just a job, a gig, and when they're not getting paid, well, you got to be sensitive to that, right? So, and yeah, it's probably the actor in me as well. I've been on enough indie shoots where, you know, you start to feel like you're being taken for granted. On this one, you know. So I, you know, was thinking about all these things as I was, like I said, constructing the story, which is important. It's, it's crucial, because at the end of the day, I rather do a, you know, a smaller project, but do it right then try to attempt this epic thing where at the end of the day, you know, I burn out, and I don't even finish it the way I want. I owe money to gazillions of people, and everyone hates me. You know what I mean, this way I'm good, you know?

Dave Bullis 28:14
And you know that that's I made a mistake like that when I first started, you know, I tried to make something way too epic for like, my second or third movie. This movie will never see a light. No, no. It was my third movie. That's right, because my second and third short films will never, ever see the light of day. I But the third one, somebody actually has on DVD, and if I ever even got a modicum of success, I know somebody would be like, Hey, look at this. This is Dave Wilson's thing. But basically, there was a lot of of gunplay. And I had, this is one Video Copilot. I actually have that, that DVD as well. I actually got, got the DVD for, I think, Christmas, or maybe I bought it myself. And what happened was I was all all set to do all the I did all the choreography. Worked out well. One by one, I had my crew drop out. So now I'm doing like, not only three rolls and four rolls. Now I'm doing like six or seven roles. So now it's down to me, my cinematographer, because this was a whole new team. I've never worked with these guys before, and as the day went on, I just had more and more problems kept creeping up that, you know, I could have worked out had I had more people to fight these fires. For me, why I fight these fires? Because now it's like, you know, I'm going around trying to fix this and do that, and then, you know, the place was supposed to be vacant. And then here, guess what happens? Here comes security. Who are you guys? You're not supposed to be here. And I'm like, Yes, we are. I have been over this for months talking to you guys. I mean, it just it was a complete disaster. But the point I'm trying to make is, if I had just done something even a slightly, slightly step backwards, on a slightly smaller scale.

I would have had a much better time. I would have had a much better finished product. And we probably would have gotten shot, probably got would have gotten everything shot that day, rather than, you know, having like pieces of it, you know, put together somewhere. And, you know, eventually I put together what was like a rough cut of a couple of days, and it was like you couldn't show this anywhere. It was unbearable to watch just everything that could went wrong did go wrong. My second and third student films that everything that could go wrong went wrong. It was unbelievable. You know, I was just talking about, you know, making things that are epic. So if there's advice to pull from this from anybody listening, do not try to make like Godzilla or Lord of the Rings or Inglorious Bastards, your first time, you will fail horribly.

Bojan Dulabic 31:00
Yep. Oh, I absolutely agree. You know, I've done a fair share of mistakes on, you know, like short films and all that, but I definitely, you know, there's a lot of anxiety and fear on my first film, and that's why, you know, that's why that one, like, like I mentioned earlier, it's a comedy, mostly set in one location, you know, it's two roommates, and it's in their apartment, and, you know, stuff starts to go wrong and that kind of, you know, those kinds of scenarios. And you know, we shot that one in eight days, on weekends. And you know, that really, that was a great sort of playground, learning ground for me to see. Okay, first of all, can I do? That was 83 minutes, which is this one is also 80 minutes. So, you know, it's the same length. So that was a good opportunity for me to see. Okay, can I? Can I actually make a feature, you know, an 80 minute thing. Can i Because, you know, a lot of filmmakers talk about that, but they've actually never done it, you I know, I didn't know. What does it actually entail to make such a such a longer piece? You know, at that point, my longest short was probably 12-15, minutes. Maybe, you know. So, you know, but there was a certain safe environment, because, like I said, mostly shot in one location. It had four main actors, and then there was few others, but it was mostly those four guys, right? And, you know, I was very happy when, when it was all done and with, you know, the end result. And it, it boosted my, my, what's the word man, my, my, not my ego, but my confidence, confidence. Thank you, Jesus, I can talk Yes. So it definitely boosted my confidence. And, you know, made me realize that, okay, I think I'm ready to do something bigger. But that's, that's a crucial moment right there, when it could have fallen apart easily if I had gone, you know, just a slightly bigger than what I ended up doing. You know, it's a tricky thing, and I've, obviously, I have many filmmaking friends, as we all do, and actor friends and all that. And you know, some of them have never made a feature. Some of them are still working on it, and some are recovering from it, as we all are. And you know, it's always good to just be cognizant of, okay, you should always have your own style, absolutely. But you know, if, if you know people that have done it, talk to them, you know, I love to talk to, you know, guys like you, other filmmakers, and just kind of bounce ideas off, you know, okay, this is what worked for me. I don't know if it's going to work for you, but this is what worked for me, you know. And you know, once you start doing that, once you start understanding this whole process, it definitely helps you, at least it helped me, you know. So hopefully, when the next one, you know, when it's time for the next one, I'll, you know, it'll be bigger. But like I said, I don't want to go overboard where that one's pretty much going to bury me, you know.

Dave Bullis 34:22
Yeah, it's somebody once told me before, when I was starting out. They said, Dave, never listen to anybody in this business who teaches you how to make a film, who's never actually made a film. Never listen anybody who took out how to write a script, if they'd ever written a script. He said, You know, this is all so hands on that you can't just keep, you know, there's a lot of theory and all of this. There's a lot of theory like, Hey, I could, you know, make it this way or that way. What you really need is, the is, the is that meat and potatoes, so to speak. And I actually wrote a book. It didn't get published. It's actually on a hard drive. I took everybody on this journey. Day by day, and I actually took a snapshot of my bank account. Well, the productions bank account, everything from check stubs, receipts my own like writings of how I dealt with problems with crew, cast locations and every day, at the end of every day, or at the beginning of every day, I would write something. At the end of every day, I would write something so like, day one had a beginning, and this is what happened. This is what we're playing on doing. And then I, at the end of the day, I would come back and write this, and I would give you snapshots. I compound it all together into a book. It was this TV pilot, and I actually pitched it. And a lot of places were like, you know, this is a lot. And I said, Well, it's, it's just detailing, you know, how did I come up with $1,000 very quickly? How did I get this money? How did I when PayPal shut down our crowdfunding campaign because they had no clue what it was they How did I come back from that? It's, that's the stuff that you have to talk about. And then there's also, like, I actually have my own private checklist of what I do now, like, I'm gonna start a crowdfunding campaign next year. I know exactly what I'm going to do differently than I've done when I did years ago, and even when I've done last year, when I was helping out other friends, you know, sometimes I would they would, you know, send me their link or whatever, and I'd say, okay, just do this and this. And, you know, I, you know, don't worry about credit. Just, you know, when the time comes, just, you know, retweet my stuff or help me out any way you can. But, but, yeah, you know, it's, it's just about those relationships and actually cultivating it. And, you know, not being, you know, just not being a jerk to people, I guess, right?

Bojan Dulabic 36:34
Well, absolutely, no, absolutely. I mean, first of all, that sounds like an amazing book, man, you know, I want to read that, you know, no, but absolutely, that's, that's exactly what it is, you know. Going back to your comment about listening, people have never actually made a film. I 100% agree, and we all have listened to these individuals who have these amazing theories. And at the end of the day, look, if you haven't done it yourself or or if you unless you are talking about what someone else said, it's a theory, you know, I only talk about things that I've actually done, you know, because at the end of the day, I don't know, and I don't want to Be The Guy Who gives you some BS, you know, information, because I wouldn't want to be the one receiving BS information either. You know what I mean. So, no, absolutely, it's a tricky thing, because, you know, obviously everyone has an opinion. And you know, the one thing I always like to do, you know, whenever I meet, you know, let's say filmmakers. And you know, we start talking about everything. And you know, after I've met them, I I look them up online just to see, okay, has this person actually done something? Because, you know, you know, if they have given me so many information, all that, I want to see where that actually comes from. And you know, in some cases, you know, you're positively surprised. You go, Holy crap. Well, they've done amazingly, like, I want to talk more to this person. And then, you know, there's, there's situations where you go, I see nothing here. I see absolutely nothing. So at that point, you kind of go, I don't know. Man, I don't know. And, you know, it's the same thing. I, you know, I have my YouTube channel where I have a show called filmmaking today, where I talk about, it's different things, gear, I use, techniques I use for my film and my projects. And I always, you know, from the beginning, I told myself, I will only talk about things that I'm actually doing, you know, because, again, there's so many videos about, you know, all kinds of things coming from people who've actually never done it. I kind of have an issue with as an actor. I also have an issue with, you know, acting coaches, because, you know, you got to be careful with that, you know, you take, you take a workshop with Person X, and, you know, you look them up, and you see they had, they have, actually less gigs than you, you know, okay, I, I, technically, I, I'm more qualified to teach you this course, you know what I mean. So this is not, not a good idea. So, yeah, I agree to, you know, put it in one sentence.

Dave Bullis 39:30
It's funny. You mentioning acting coaches. There was actually an acting coach on my Facebook. He deleted me just recently. He was always inviting me to all his events in New York and stuff like that. And, you know, I actually, one day watched one of his I don't it's not a real it's like a promo for his classes. And he acted like he was, like the best actor who's ever existed. So I looked him up, and he was in virtually nothing,

How the hell is this guy running acting classes who has done absolutely positively nothing, and that's why, when he deleted me, I'm like, I didn't even worry about it. I was like, Oh well, because I have an app on my Facebook that tells my name, it deletes me and yeah, so I actually, I was like, I don't care anymore. So I took that app off because, like, you know, why even bother, right? I'm barely on Facebook anymore anyway. So as most people can tell, I'm just like, going there and this and that. But now I'm sorry. Now I'm getting off topic. But yeah, the Facebook and, but yeah, no, you're absolutely right. It's like Alex Ferrari. He just had a post on his indie film hustle.com blog where he said, Don't hire somebody just because they have a very good looking camera. That is a mistake that I made one time. And the guy, the guy was talented, but he was also insane. And by the end, we were fighting back and forth. He was fighting with everybody. And, you know, everyone kind of gave me the eye, like, you hired this guy. And I said, you know, I was like, Guys, I'm sorry I tried to fire him. The producer wants to keep him because he's got, you know, the RED camera, and he's got this, but it was a complete, you know, disaster and final. And I afterwards, like, I was so burned out for the project, I didn't want to talk about it anymore. I was just, you know, I told the producers, you know, that guy completely sapped all the energy because you, I mean, you, you know, Bucha, you know, when you go into a film set, anybody, and it's whether it's you, me, Quentin, Tarantino, Rob Rodriguez, we all have a finite amount of energy and patience and everything else, you know, we all have at the beginning of the day, we have, you know that those levels, you know, and as you go on, you know, going through everything, you know, it gets whittled down. Certain things get taken out more than others, you know. But by the end of the day, you know, you're pretty much on empty, you know, physically and mentally and sometimes spiritually. And you know, that's when you're you finally realize, you know, wow, it does take a village to raise a child. Sometimes it does take a whole army to make a film. And this is why,

Bojan Dulabic 42:14
Oh, absolutely. And, I mean, I don't think most people realize, absolutely, how exhausting this process is, especially in the film, in the indie film world where you know everything smaller, the budgets are smaller, you know everything. And absolutely i I have had my fair share of you know situations where you know whether it was dealing I have been blessed to work with great cast, but you know, there are certain situations where they might not understand that. Look, it's not, it's not just about you. I mean, again, I'm an actor, and when I once said, I understand that there are so many things happening at once, so many, so many stars have to align up, you know, line up to make this one shot. And, you know, we all have to suck it up, essentially, you know. And, you know, it's difficult. It absolutely is difficult. I mean, on, you know, on this, this set, it was, you know, a typical day would pretty much consist of me. I would have my audio guy, I would have, you know, my my makeup and prosthetics person, and then, if I'm lucky, one more person, right, sort of to help out a little bit of everything. And you know, that's it, you know. And then the actors, obviously, however many there were. So, you know, we're not talking like I said, 20, 30 people on set, because I'm a strong believer that the more people you have on set as crew members, it all slows you down. And a you know, it's not about having a lot of people. It's about having the right amount of people, you know. And yeah, sometimes I might go overboard in, you know, maybe not having enough, but that's what allows me to shoot seven to 10 pages a day, which is what I average. We shot this film in 10 days. And, you know, it's, it's, it's an exhausting process at the end of the day. I mean, I'm the first one on set. I'm the last one to leave. You know, I had been plenty of days where I wouldn't even eat anything, not, not because I don't want to use because, you know when, when it's lunchtime, I'm going through my shot list and I'm going, Okay, we got to get this done. We got to do this. I talked to my sound guy, you know, my, whoever it is, my prosthetics person, you know, and that kind of stuff. So it's very exhausting. But you know, I do believe that you have to have certain amount of insanity as a filmmaker to attempt anything in this world. Because I think any sane person would go, I, I'm good man. I'll stick to my nine to five, you know. So I am blessed with a certain. Sanity, which, which keeps me going, you know,

Dave Bullis 45:03
And you need that. You need that little bit of insanity that when you say at the end of, at the end of some of these projects, you'll say, Never again, never again. Am I going to do this? I don't care what comes along, and six months later, you know, at most, you're like, Damn, I should go make a movie. You know, what the hell is going on here. Because, you know, I mean, like, you know, my quick, you know, little story, it's been about four years since I actually made anything of my my own. I mean, that's not to say I haven't been on other people's sets or done this or done that. I'm just talking about my own stuff. It's I the last thing that produced was about four years ago, and I there's an interesting story about why it's been four years, but it's just to be put up make a long story short, it's, it's crazy people. I we had a crazy editor, and I finally looked at the guy that was the director, and because I recommended this guy, because all of a sudden he just kind of went berserk. And I'll tell the story another podcast. But basically, I was like, I apologize. I'm gonna work to figure the, you know, to solve this stuff. And that's, that's that point where I was like, I must be insane to keep wanting to come back and be a glutton for punishment with this stuff. You know, it's like, my god, and, you know, and, you know, speaking of, you know, of editing, what? Actually, one of the questions I want to ask you too. Bojan was, you know, what did you use to to Edit Project Eugenics?

Bojan Dulabic 46:24
Yeah, I use Premiere Pro for editing. I am a, I'm an Adobe nerd, right? So I use most of most of their products. So yeah, for editing, it was a Premiere Pro. I used to use Final Cut seven a while, while ago and on my last movie, my first movie, I actually was one of those people who switched to Final Cut 10, and I actually edited most of the movie in there. And it, it did not work out. Just it, just my personal opinion. It's not what seven used to be. So I went back to because before, or somewhere in between that I can't remember, I was using Premiere, and so I went back to premiere, which i i use exclusively now for, you know, my editing, and because I love the integration with Premiere Pro and After Effects, you know, just being able to send the sequence into After Effects. Do you know, whatever I need to do, and then, you know, keep working in it. So, yeah,

Dave Bullis 47:25
Yeah, you I use all the Adobe products as well. You can't beat that, because all you do is, literally, you click a button and I edit this podcast and audition. And you know, when I'm in Premiere, I can click a button and just say, send audio to audition, and I can work on all the audio problems I can take out pops and clicks and stuff. I mean, it's just it's amazingly easier. You actually couldn't get any easier. Because, I mean, maybe you could. But, I mean, it's just it's phenomenal the way it works together.

Bojan Dulabic 47:52
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I, you know, I also do graphic and web design related things. So, you know, I obviously use Photoshop and Illustrator for for all that. And, you know, in my opinion, I know a lot of people hate it when Adobe switched over to their Creative Cloud subscription based model, and I actually love it. I think, I think it's, it's, it's a great model. You know, I'm constantly, we're all constantly getting updates, and they're great. I mean, you know, just recently, I discovered their mobile apps so you can actually create a lot, you know, color lookup table using your phone. You just take a photo of whatever, I would say, a sunset, and it will create those colors, and you can apply that to your video footage. And it's amazing, you know, just the integration, which goes back to what I, you know, what I said earlier, earlier, the advancements in in this field. I mean, technology in general, but especially this field, are so incredible. I mean, there's really no excuse not to make a film, you know, whatever type of film, it doesn't matter. You know, yes, 2030, years ago, it was, you know, 10 times more difficult. And you know, you needed to ask for permission, right? Like, like Jason always talks about asking for permission. Nope, we're done with that. I'm not going to ask anyone for permission. You know, I'm, you know, able to make my films the way they are, and obviously I want to grow the budgets and all that. I don't want to keep making $5,000 movies, but I'm not asking anyone for permission, you know, and that's extremely empowering, and it really allows you to tell your story, you know, whether people like the movie or not, I have no impact on that, but this is my story. This is it. It's truly a Director's Cut. There's no, you know, no one interfering. You know,

Dave Bullis 49:48
You know that that's, that's what you know a lot of filmmakers are doing now, is they don't want, you know, they don't have to ask for permission. They don't have to, you know, wait for someone's notes to come in after seeing the dailies. Anymore. You know, it's they can go out and they can they they're the ones calling the shots, for instance, like M Night Shyamalan, that's what he does now, because, you know, after he made after earth. He said, I don't want to do this whole studio system anymore. So he went out, made the visit, and it was a lot more successful for him, both financially and, you know, as an artist, because now he didn't have anybody telling him, you know, what to do, because he could do it himself, you know, he he made all his own calls. There was no notes, no one looking over his shoulder. And that that's, you know, that's invaluable as a filmmaker. Robert Rigas also was talking about that recently when he said, You know, I'd rather have less money and more freedom than, you know, more money. And I have to answer to 10,000 people, he said, You know, it's, I'd easily rather have less money.

Bojan Dulabic 50:57
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I'm right on board with that statement. I mean, I, you know, I mean, my, one of my goals is to show people, you know that, okay, this is what I can do for $5,000 and by the way, that's 5000 Canadian dollars, which in us is like two bucks. Nowadays, $1 is worth nothing, apparently. But anyway, so that's, you know, that is my goal. And I, actually, I have absolutely no desire to make, like 100 or 100 and $50 million blockbuster movie. I really don't, because knowing myself, how passionate I get about these things, I probably get fired for picking a fight with with the wrong executive and all that stuff. And I, you know, so those stories don't interest me, because I think, for, you know, for 1 million, I mean, you know, you look especially in the horror field. Another one of my favorite directors is James Wong, you know, he made the first Saw movie and the insidious movies and all that. And, I mean, you look at just those movies, who all of them, all the insidious movies, I think the first one had a budget of 800,000 I think somewhere on there. And then, you know, the budgets grew slowly, but they're still in couple of few million dollar range. And you look at those movies, and, man, they're amazing. I mean, the horror fan and me, you know, if you're into horror, I love it. And from a production point of view, I think it's done very well, you know. So, you know, I think, you know. I mean, Spielberg talked about, you know, this the and Lucas too, about, you know, the implosion of Hollywood, which, my opinion is, I think something will happen in the next, you know, little bit the way I kind of see it, you know, if you look at the history of Hollywood, you know, back in the late 60s, when, when the studio system fell apart, right? And you had corporations buying all the studios and making the movies, and, you know, that was sort of the first, the first or the second wave, technically, you know, the first wave was the one that started. Then you had the second wave with the corporations. And I kind of look at this as the third wave, which is us indie guys, call it the YouTubers, whatever you want to call it doesn't matter who are able. And I'm not, I'm not, I'm not talking about myself here. I'm talking about in general. There's certainly plenty of other directors who are able to do much more than I am with small budgets. And, you know, you look at the stuff that they're doing for for virtually nothing, you know? And yes, most people don't get paid on those sets, but you know what I have, there are indie projects who caught that cost 100, $150,000 and people still don't get paid, you know. And then you look at movies where, you know, like 5000 or 10,000 Well, you know, I think if, if you make a movie for 10,000 just give the person a 10,000 and everyone would get paid. You know what I mean. But it would still be a great product. Whereas you start wondering, okay, the, you know, millions and millions of dollar budgets. What happened, man, you know, what? Where's the quality where, you know, did everything go towards the catering budget? It was like, you know, you start to wonder. And, yeah, so I firmly believe that we, we are part of the next wave, so to speak, because at the end of the day, you can't keep having budgets in the $200 million range. I mean, you know, you look at, you know, the recent Terminator movie. I mean, if it wasn't for China and the money they made there. The movie obviously flopped. Let's, let's not kid ourselves. You can say whatever you want in North America, the movie flopped, but it didn't have to. It could have been something, you know, I was praying it would be something as I was watching it. So, yeah, I think. There's a lot of change coming our way. And, you know, I think in the end, it will be positive change if we just stick to our guns. And, you know, say, you know, look, we can tell these stories. And you know, I'm not, you know, if a producer comes to me and says, Listen, we have a couple of million we want you to direct this movie. You know, I'm not going to be like, no, no, I'm an indie guy. No, no, I'm going to take the money. I'm going to make a movie. But absolutely, you know, you're not stupid, but at the at the same time it, if you came to me, you obviously trust that I can bring something to it. So let me tell my story, you know, and that's easier to tell. It's easier to have that conversation with someone when you're talking about a $2 million production versus a 200 million. So yes, it's, you know, I think a lot is going to happen, and some of it is already, you know,

Dave Bullis 55:57
Yeah, you know, I wonder, as I was talking in my last podcast interview with Brad Wilkie. You know, a lot of this, I think, is it's so accessible now, and we always talk about who is going to rise to the top. Is it just so overcrowded that it takes a rare instance of, you know, the perfect storm of a network of money, of this and that, to rise to the top? Or is it just still the old fashioned way, where everything's still just gonna rise at the top based upon quality, meaning, like, you know, the Reservoir Dogs is still gonna rise to the top those types of movies. I actually feel both are true. Personally, I think that you know, even with, you know, the influx of new filmmakers now, just in the past year or two, I really do think that you know you're going to see the quality projects are always going to go to the top. You're going to because, you know, you always trust your friends most of all. So if your friend tells you, hey, listen, go watch, you know, whatever movie, most of the time, you're going to listen to them. You're going to say, Hey, okay, I'll sit down. I'll carve out the time. But you know, I think with the, you know, with a lot of these superhero movies, I think that's going to cause a lot of burnout. But then again, I said that, like, two years ago, and then there's still, you know, churning them out, and they're still number one at the box office, and now Star Wars is coming out, and that's, let's face it, that's the unstoppable force right now, I don't, I don't even think Star Wars is a movie anymore. I think it's like a, I don't even it's almost like a need now, it's almost like on the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. It's like Star Wars and then food and shelter and feelings of safety. I mean, it is just a phenom. I mean, and I see all these spin offs, and I'm like, You know what? They could have 100 spin offs. They could have movies come out until everybody right now is passed, and our great, great grandchildren are still watching them. And you know what, I don't think it's ever going to stop. Uh, if they could just keep finding a new character to expand on, like, Hey, see that guy in the cantina? Well, that's, you know, rebuild six, and he's going to, you know, do something now. And it's all just, you know, it's, it's just all the continuation of this universe.

Bojan Dulabic 58:02
Amen, don't underestimate, don't underestimate, revelant six man, that guy's got it going, you know. Oh, absolutely. Uh, look, you know. I mean, it's human nature to to yearn for entertainment. I mean, this has been true way before there have been movies and television and all that. I mean, you know, we want to be entertained, you know, so that will always be there. But I do believe I agree with you, in the sense, you know, the way I see it, I don't want the big blockbusters to go away, you know. Because, you know, if you want to tell a an epic story, like a Star Wars type of story. You know, there are certain budgets needed. That's what I'm saying. You can't make everything for, you know, low budget. But I don't think that every movie needs to be that. You know, the problem, in my opinion, the problem is that, I mean, good God, we have comedies now that cost 60, 70 million to make, dude, it's a comedy. As long as you make people laugh, you're fine, you know, why? Why? Is my question. So, you know, I think it just, I just think it needs to, you know, balance itself out, sort of where, you know, we still, you know, I still want to see the big blockbusters coming out, you know, whatever, a few of them a year and all that. But that should be a small segment. The rest of it, you know, should be, you know, reasonable budgets. And at the end of the day, it all goes back to story. I actually, I don't go to the theater as much as I used to, because, frankly, when I look at, you know, I look at some of the movies, I'm like, I don't think it has knowing, like I said, knowing how story, the story, has suffered in a lot of movies, I just go, You know what? I don't trust that this is going to be a good story. So I just don't go and I wait until it's on. Netflix, and you know, then I give it a shot. And, you know, sometimes it's good, sometimes it isn't.

So if you make, if you really focus on the story and you and and the crucial part, which I don't know why execs seem to have a problem with that. If you hire a director because you think he or she is good, let them do their job, man, you know, let them do their job. Um, if they're not good, then don't hire them in the first place. So, you know, I think all that you know, like I said, the story needs to the story needs to, the story needs to be number one. You know, we're now at the time where we don't get wowed anymore, by by technology, by by CG and all that. And, you know, I saw the new, I'm sure you have to the new Batman versus Superman, or Superman versus Batman. You know, whatever the order is, trailer. And, you know, I'm more interested in the story, in in in the conflict between them. Not so much about the CG, because I know the CG will be fine. You don't have to pimp it. You know, it's 2015, we're able to do some amazing stuff with CG. So tell me more about the story. You know, that's what I'm curious. And I think a lot of studios make that mistake where they show you all the CG, all the explosions, blah, blah, blah, and, you know, no offense, it starts to look like a Michael Bay movie, you know. I mean, you know, so, yeah, like I said, it's a Yeah, I agree. I absolutely agree. I think on one hand it won't go away, but on the other hand, I, I do think certain things will change. You know what I mean, it's,

Dave Bullis 1:01:49
I concur. I think certain things will change. Because, you know, I mean, we always talk about, you know, theatrical releases too. And, you know, there was always that discussion of, you know, if you know, independent films should try to go get a theatrical release. Now, you actually had a theatrical, a theatrical screening, and I don't know, was that for one night, or was that for a couple nights? Or, yeah, it was, it was one night, yeah, okay. Now, I mean, now, do you feel because you did this for the one night, then so did you feel that that may have helped you, or do you feel that maybe next time you wouldn't do that again?

Bojan Dulabic 1:02:26
That's a good question. I do feel, I mean, I'm happy with the turnout, because we had it on Tuesday evening, rainy Tuesday in Vancouver, and, you know, I was able to get people out. So that's an accomplishment, considering I'm a nobody, no name filmmaker. Now for the next one, I don't think, I don't think it has to happen. No, I don't think a theatrical release is crucial. Honestly, I don't know if I'm going to do it for the next one or not. For this one. I really wanted to do it because I felt that I had a certain momentum going, you know, and I felt that, okay, this, this could help. So let's just do it. And, you know, like I said, I'm happy with the turnout and all that, but I think we're now at the time where, you know, including myself, like I said earlier, I don't really, you know, for example, you know, my wife and I bought tickets for Star Wars, obviously, like, a month ago, I would actually, if I could stream that sucker in my living room on my nice, big screen TV, you know, in two weeks, whenever It comes out, I'd be glad. I'd be happy to do that, you know, I, I, you know, I don't care about seeing it in the theater, because, like I said, if I could stream it here in the comfort of my own home and have a good time and, you know, popcorn and all that, I'm cool with that. So I think, you know, people's mindset has changed a lot when it comes to that. I, in my opinion, your movie should be available wherever it can be available. You know, sort of like the Netflix model. Because how people watch your stuff has changed drastically. You know, I have a I have a 15 year old cousin, and I always like to use him as a guinea pig. And you know, I asked him and couple of his buddies, you know. Okay, so I was curious, do you guys care about cable, you know? And they're like, No, you know, we care about the shows we watch. Okay, cool. So the shows you watch, do you care about watching it on a TV? Or how do you watch it? I'm like, I don't know. I watch it however I however. I want on my phone, on my tablet, blah, blah. So, you know, there's no, you know, I think, with with our generation, and certainly with the older generation. You know, the prime sort of experience of watching a movie is obviously the theater, and then, you know, at home. Home now with these guys, the only thing they do care about doing on the big screen is gaming. And you know, that's that, you know, day one on the big screen. But other than that, you know, they're okay with watching a movie on the or show on their phone. So, yeah, going back to the question, I think it has helped, and I'm happy we did it. I'm not sure if I'm going to do the next one. Honestly, I'll because, you know, it might be two, three years by the time we make the next one, and who knows how much will change? You know how the landscape will change by then? You know, hard to say,

Dave Bullis 1:05:37
Yeah, that's true. And by the way, I actually looked it up as of this recording, December the seventh, 5000 Canadian dollars equals 30 755 cents US dollars. So there's that. I wanted to look that up. So, so now we, we have a $1,300 surplus. Now that's from filming, but so, you know, you ended up putting the movie on VHX, and it's available now. You You know, you actually have a ton of extra footage on there, extra sorry, bonuses on there. You have, you know, you have an audio commentary, you have a behind the scenes look, you have this special effects tutorial that you did. You have your screenplay on there too. You know, is there a reason, you know, why you chose the VHX over maybe putting it on YouTube or any or, you know, even trying to get on Netflix?

Bojan Dulabic 1:06:26
Yeah, well, I haven't ruled out Netflix yet so, but the reason I went with VHX, I use them for my first movie as well, and I just liked how because they're still relatively, you know, a relatively new company. And I like how they're constantly improving their service. You know, I'm, I don't get paid to do any, say, any of this, you know, just my opinion. But I do like that. Every once in a while, they're like, Hey, you can you have this feature. Now you have this feature. So they seem to understand that the landscape is changing rapidly. So they're, you know, keeping up. And I just love the fact that, you know, I can upload all my stuff, whatever I want. I can set the price, you know, I mean, they take their cut from each transaction, but they don't dictate me, you know, how much I should sell the movie for, for example, iTunes, they do tell you they do have their set prices. Last time I checked anyway, could be wrong about that. So, and you know, and you have all the stats in terms of who downloaded or purchased your movie, rented your movie, whatever it is. So that was really the main reason just control, you know, at the end of the day, you know, I, I, you know, you get used as an indie guy. You do get used to a certain amount of control you have over your project, right? And you know, you spend so much time and energy, you know, making it. And you know, it would really suck, that when it comes to distribution, all that gets taken away from you, you know, which is usually what does happen. So that was the reason why I like a company like VHX. Now, having that said, you know, I, like I said earlier, I wanted to be available everywhere, you know. And you know, that's like I said, in my opinion, how we view and consume Entertainment has changed drastically. You know, I don't have cable because I, I, you know, the entertainment I watch is accessible via YouTube, via Netflix, you know, whatever service it is, and that's good enough for me, man, you know. So, yeah, that was, that was the main reason. And, yeah, going back to the special features, yeah, I, I always, most of my film education also comes from making our features on DVDs and blu rays, right? So, you know, when we, we moved to Canada in 2001 and, you know, we that's when I started watching blu ray, because they weren't available in Europe. And when I saw, holy crap, there's an audio commentary, dude, I cannot watch the movie, and the director is talking about what I'm watching. You know, how he did it, and all that stuff. And it was, it was, you know, I was like, Oh, my God, moment. So, you know, like said, most of my education comes from that. And I always feel I want to do the same, you know, it's, I guess it's a, it's a way of, you know, giving back, if you want to call it that, you know, because I feel, I feel, the more there are indie filmmakers, you know, the better it is for everyone. Because all of us will collectively sort of raise this industry to a level where, you know, we can actually make money doing this. You know, it's not just okay. Let's put my own money into this. And you know, you're never going to see anything from it.

So, yeah, that's the reason,

Dave Bullis 1:10:15
Yeah. And you know, Jason Brubaker was saying, you know, some of these distribution deals are just completely inane, you know, and nobody in the right mind would would go for them. I actually knew somebody who they actually made. I probably put about 10,000 into their movie, and they were trying to distribute it. And when the time came, they only had one company that was willing to pay them, and they were going to pay him something ridiculous, like, think it was like 1000 bucks or 600 bucks, and they would have the rights for the movie for five years, to show the movie in like, some foreign country. And I think it was like, I think maybe even Cambodia or something, and, and that filmmaker was like, What the hell kind of distribution deal is this like? And they got full race in the movie too. So for those five years, he couldn't sell it to anywhere else. It was all about. So it was really odd. And I don't know what they ended up doing with it, but, you know, I think this is the future too, where we, if we did have a theatrical run with a film. I think it should. It probably will end up being available the same day, or maybe the day after, on maybe VH x, or maybe, you know, YouTube, or even a digital download directly from that person's site. And, you know, hey, listen, it's 10 bucks and, or whatever the hell it might be. And you can get the bare bones version. You can get this version. Then you know, what draft house films does. Hey, look, you can get the film. But then you also get a t shirt and, or, if you want the next package, you get a poster with it. And the next package, you get the vinyl record with it. And, you know, I think stuff like that, the, you know, having those upselling packages and stuff are going to be the future as well. And, you know, and I think it's just going to be again. About is going to be again, excuse me, about building that market, building that audience, making sure you have a high quality project that you can actually do with the resources you have. And you know, maybe not shooting too high for the moon. And you know, crowdfunding, and you know, keep working that audience, and you know, seeing what you can come up with and you know, and just, you know, and building from there, you know, there's a, there was a really good article about, you know, if you do build an audience for a film, you know, what do you do with that audience after the film is over and you just sort of say, Hey guys, well, it's been fun. It's been a fun year. You know, us building this. So that's one of the things too, I think has to change is how people market films. I think Facebook fan pages, honestly starting a new one for every film you do, I think it's gonna get a little like ludicrous after a while, because I know people who have like seven, eight different Facebook pages for different films they've done, and then they have to, then there's that audience, and then there's this audience. But I think maybe if you had it under one umbrella. Or maybe Facebook could change this, but maybe if you had it just for your production company, it's, it's stuff like that that I think are really going to be key to making sure that everyone still sees your stuff and but then again, you know the email list is always going to be key. That email list is critical, because, you know, and you know all the social media stuff, we could talk about it for days, but the fact is, it's rented space, and they can change it without warning. They can change it. They can do whatever they want, and they never have to tell us about it. They don't, almost an explanation, because, after all, it's a free product, and you know, they, you know, they're the ones putting all the money for it, and we're just sort of renting that space out.

Bojan Dulabic 1:13:36
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, going back to the whole having multiple pages, absolutely. I mean, I, you know, I have my my mail list, mailing list, and initially, when I, when I put that together, I actually talked to someone about that, and I a person who had his own mailing list that I was subscribed to. And I asked him, What should I do? Should I have one for this movie, for this blah, blah. And he, to his credit, said, not a dude have one, trust me. And so that's what I did my you know, I treat my mailing list as a sort of like a VIP area. You know, if you subscribe to it, you will always be the first one to get, you know, clips, for example, if you go on the web, website, Project eugenics, you can watch the first three minutes and whatever is 40 seconds of the movie for free, right? Well, that was available to my newsletter subscribers months ago, right? So they were able to see it. And then, you know, whenever I have coupons, discounts and all that stuff, they are the first ones to, you know, find out about it and it not just about this movie, then, you know, whenever I have videos for my YouTube channel, they are the first ones to get notified. So you know that that's my way of building an audience, and, you know, rewarding them. And. So to me, that's really how you know how we're going to rise in this in this industry, in this indie industry, because at the end of the day, it all comes back to the fan base. You know, you look a guy like Kevin Smith, another good example, you know, who really has sort of cut himself off from Holly like mainstream Hollywood in terms of filmmaking. Who is, you know, making more of his own stuff? Well, he's allowed. He's able to do that because he has had almost 20 year career in Hollywood, right? Well, I don't have that. So I have to, I have to adapt a slightly different model, which, you know, hopefully it's not going to take me 20 years to get there. But, you know, you look at, you look at YouTube guys, which, that's sort of the model I'm adapting. You know, film right? Is a great YouTube channel where, you know, you talk all about film related stuff, and they have their fan base, and, you know, that's the approach I'm taking, which is, okay, this is the stuff I do. I talk about film related stuff, whether it's gear, whether it's techniques, all that stuff. Subscribe to my newsletter. You know, you'll, you'll get a book as free, which is, I think it's called How to make a movie in your own living room, which talks about my first movie, and then, you know, you'll be the first one to get all my info. Oh my sorry, all my promo stuff and and all that stuff. And, you know, it's, it's working. I mean, it's, it's, it's definitely growing, and I'm happy with it. You know, it's certainly not there where I want it to be at this point, but, you know, it's growing. So that's that's the main thing, and that's how we have to look at it. I know a lot of filmmakers, you know, young filmmakers, our generation, who are still trying to adopt the old model, you know, who aren't as active online who don't have their own fan base and all that. And look, everyone you know, there are people every year who succeed with the old model you know. You you write a script, you it gets noticed by the right people, you get your funding. That's all great, but that's a very small percentage, you know. And I don't want to build, you know, put all my hopes and efforts into something that, ultimately, yeah, might never be seen by anyone you know. And that's, that's also why I have, you know, an issue with film festivals these days, where, you know, I love film festivals. That's all great. But the reality is, you know, 10 years ago, you might film festival X may have received 200 submissions. Now it's 2 million. Or who knows, however, so, yeah, it's a lot more difficult to stand out. And I, you know, I just think by building your own audience, by, you know, having people dedicated to to you and what it is that you're doing will, in the long run, help you. And there's a lot of examples of that where, you know it works on YouTube and on online in general, right?

Dave Bullis 1:18:15
Yeah, it's very true. And you know, one of the other things that I've noticed is, is that once somebody gets a following on YouTube, they tend to go right to Patreon, and they start a Patreon account to get some, you know, to have people actually, you know, fund them, whether it be 510, you know, $15 a month. I actually was researching Patreon, and some of them, some of those channels, are pulling down a pretty good amount of money per month. I'm talking like 13, 15,000 per month. Now, I don't know. This is what I always wonder about Patreon. I don't know how that divvy up between the members, or if that's just all has to go towards art, or if they're quitting their day jobs. And who the hell knows? Because I guess it's a case by case situation, but you know. But I mean, you know. So there's a lot of options. Now, which is a good thing. You know, it's not a war of i when it's not a war anymore to get your film made, it's war of eyeballs and ears. So, you know, you just have to sort of chug along and figure out again, like we were saying when we started, you know, how are you going to stand out? You know? How are you going to stand up from the pack? And you know, how are you going to make sure that you know people know who you're you know, as soon as people put your movie in, how they're going to know it's your movie? How are they going to know your style? And I think it's, you know, I think that's a challenge now, is finding a voice, because I know I struggle to find my voice. Sometimes it's even in writing, even, you know, when it's just me with a memo pad and a pen, because I still do old school. I try to disconnect from technology when I'm writing, I don't. I save the laptop and the and the other stuff for later on, but for now, it's just, you know, a pen and a paper.

Um, you know. But so, you know, that's, you know, I now, I lost track. Now, don't tell my pens and papers, but, but no, I think, you know that's, you know, there are these options out there now. And you know, I think a lot of filmmakers are trying to figure out, you know, how to actually, how to actually make it work for them, as I'm trying to say,

Bojan Dulabic 1:20:22
Oh, absolutely. And look, by no means have I figured it out. I just want to say that I have figured out a lot, like I said, How to make a movie, but when it comes to distribution, that's still, you know, that's a beast on its own. And you know, on one hand, you just have to understand that things are changing constantly, you know, and the things we talk about right now, you know, a month from now, there might be another service that comes out that just Whoa, blows it out of the water, right? So you have to be open to change you you can't be stuck in the old ways. Because, you know, and I understand that the traditional way of making and distributing a movie has been there for, what, 60 years, 60 plus years, well more than that. So I get it, you know, it was, it's, that's, that's a, that's a significant time, significant time in, you know, in that industry. But much like when the first digital cameras came out 10 ish years ago, you know, things have changed, and things are changing, and you need to understand that. And I get why a Steven Spielberg type doesn't really care about it, because he doesn't have to, you know, but a Bobby and duly big type has to, because I don't have any of that, of what Steven Spielberg has. So, yeah, be open to change and simply embrace it. And, you know, understand that. You know, making a movie nowadays is not actually that difficult anymore. You know, it's difficult, but not as much. It's really, what do you do to get it noticed, to get it seen? You know, that's really what we need to tackle, and that's what I'm constantly trying to figure out. You know, I'm not worried about my next movie, how to make it. I mean, of course, I'm not going to be an arrogant prick, and it's like, oh, I got it all figured out. I don't, you know. But my bigger concern is, okay, how do I get it seen? How do I, frankly, make money? You know, you have to make money off of it because, like I said, you how else you're going to keep going and make more movies, you know? So that's a challenge, and but the more services come out, like Patreon, like VHX and all that, it makes me feel good, you know, I want an explosion of those services, because eventually we'll figure out something that is sustainable within that, you know,

Dave Bullis 1:23:00
Yeah, and that's, you know, that's true too, because, you know, making money, or making a profit on this is, again, is how you make your next film. Unless you, if you go and go in and make a movie, and it's just the goal is just for experience, or what have you, and you spend like, 2000 bucks, and you're just like, look, I'm gonna put up on YouTube. I don't I maybe this will give me some hits, maybe give me some subscribers, but I'm not gonna do some for the, you know, to make a profit or try to sell this, then that's fine, that, you know. But if you're serious about making this, you know, as a profit, you know, making it profitable, you have to actually have a business plan. You have to think this way, you know. You can't just sort of go in and say, Well, I hope things work out, you know, because eventually someone's going to come along. And this is a story I'll say for another time, but I have a friend of mine, and he had the attitude. And finally somebody, a big distributor, came to him and actually asked him for those materials, those business materials, those accounting materials, and everything else. And he was like, I don't have anything. I have, no, I can't give you the budget. I can't give you this. I can't give you that. And there's a couple of things they asked them for, and eventually they just sort of walked very interesting story. I mean, I'll tell it sometime, or I'll bring him on to tell it, but, but, you know, like you said, you know, there's a lot of options out there and, you know. But yeah, we've been talking for about, you know, about an hour 20 now. So you know, in closing, is there anything you wanted to maybe say, any final thoughts or closing thoughts you wanted out of this conversation?

Bojan Dulabic 1:24:30
Um, you know, just want to, obviously, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. And, you know, I love what you're doing. Keep doing it. We need guys like you, you know. And just want to just generally tell everyone you know, if you want to make a movie, make it. Do it. Obviously, be smart about it. Think about all those things we've been talking about, but just do it. Man. Life's way too short. And like I said, if you're smart about it, you can do all kinds of things also, um. If you are curious about my film, go project eugenics.com you can rent it, or you can purchase just a movie. Or there's a filmmaker edition, which has the making of features we talked about. And also, I have a promo code that I created just for the listeners here, if you get the filmmaker edition and just punch in in the coupon section, punch in podcast, and you'll get 30% off. So it's actually for you Americans, it'll be even better. Oh, no, wait, I'm trying to think, think, is it in US or Canadian? Anyway, it'll be either better. It'll be the same. So yeah, it'll be it's 1499 and then you'll get 30% off of that for the filmmaker edition. So and, yeah, if anyone has ever any questions, just, you know, ask me. You can email me at [email protected], D, U, L, A, B, I, C, or just look me up online. I'm very easily stockable online.

Dave Bullis 1:26:01
Yeah, I found you. So there you go. Yeah. You know, I want to say thank you very much for coming on Bojan, I will everyone again, as always. I will link to everything we talked about in the show notes all the I will even link to the article that boy on wrote for Jason Brubaker's website about how he made the film for $5,000 and I looked at everything else, all these social media sites, but yeah, we honestly thanks again for coming on and, you know, again, I wish you the best of luck. You know, with with, not only with Project Eugenics, whatever you're doing the whatever you're doing after project eugenics and all your future projects.

Bojan Dulabic 1:26:36
Thank you, my friend. And again, thank you for having me. And absolutely, keep on rocking my friend.

Dave Bullis 1:26:43
Oh, thank you. Do the same, buddy.