IFH 786: Crafting Authentic Stories from Lady Gaga to Sci-Fi Futures with Kim Ray

Alex Ferrari 0:09
Today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

My guest is a writer, producer and director. She has produced reality TV shows such as MTV made she's been produced on The X Factor. She has been a producer for Kendra on top, which is currently on its sixth season on Wii TV. And her current produced project stars a little known singer named Lady Gaga. You may have heard of her in the documentary Gaga five foot two, which is on Netflix right now, which follows Gaga around as she prepares for her Super Bowl Halftime Show, and just gives you a sneak peek of our life in general with guest Kim Ray.

Dave Bullis 2:28
You know, we actually met on Twitter, and I usually meet a lot of people through Twitter because you produced the new Netflix special Gaga five foot two. And, you know, we got to talking, and I looked up your IMDB, and I'm actually familiar with a lot of your work. Actually, it was actually funny enough, starting with West Bank story, I actually remember seeing that years ago, and I when I saw that was one of the things that you produced, I was like, Wow, what a small world.

Kim Ray 2:56
I co wrote it. Yeah, I wrote it with Ari, the director. We were in grad school together at the time at USC, and we had kind of become besties, and we started an organization at USC for the grad production students called the entertainment industry network, because when we both got there, we we started the same semester for the directing program at USC, the production program, And there was no, there wasn't a lot of interaction with the other programs, with the writing program, the producing program, or even with Hollywood. So we started this organization and kind of mixed everybody up and got everybody going, you know, working together on different projects, so that, you know, people from the producers, the Peter shark producing program would get with the writers, and they bring directors projects. And so it was really successful. And then when it came time for us to do our thesis films, I wrote mine, and obviously was directing it, and but I needed an assistant director. I really needed somebody to run the set. And I was like, you have to see my ad, you have no choice. And he's like, Well, help me write my thesis film. He's like, I got nothing. He's like, I just have an idea. It's called West Bank story. And maybe it's like a bank in the in the valley, you know, but it's, it's kind of still like, you know, West Side Story with an Israeli, but with an Israeli and a Palestinian. And we just kind of went from there. And I was like, All right, and we just, you know, developed and developed. And then one day, and I have never been to Israel, and his father, our dad is Israeli, so he had been and so I was like, Well, explain it to me, like, what is it like, you know, what is it, what do they have in common? You know, he's like, Well, they really just have the food in common. And you know for sure, not just but that's one of the things they have in common, is the food. And we started talking about, and I just remembered, like, all of the McDonald's and Burger King wars when I was a kid and like, Pepsi and Coke and all that stuff. I was like, Well, what if it's competing Fauci. Stands in the West Bank, and he was like, Well, that would never happen, because there's checkpoint, you know, they're, they're not like, you can't feel like, you just walk from one side to the other, you know. I said, Well, what if it was at a checkpoint? Like, he's like, No, that would never happen. I was like, Well, okay, but let's take some creative license here. Maybe it could happen. And we just both it was, ended up being funny. And at one point we had, like, Fatima, you know, have a backpack on, like, maybe she's a suicide bomb. Obviously, that wasn't funny, and that was we cut that. But, you know, we're just going through ideas of what could be funny and how it could be a comedy musical. And I had actually been in a band in college and written a lot of songs and a lot of poetry. And so when we finished the script, Ari was like, we have to find a composer, you know, we have to find somebody to write all the songs. And I was like, Well, why don't we take a stab? And he's like, I don't know anything about writing songs. I was like, I was in a band. Maybe I, you know, maybe I could do any writing music. Have you ever written any songs or poetry?

Dave Bullis 5:59
No, no, believe me, Kim, no, nobody wants to see me sing either.

Kim Ray 6:05
So okay, all right, well, it's, you know, it's, it's kind of embarrassing, right? Like when you write a song or a poem and you you can write it, that's not embarrassing. That's like, you know, you're putting your emotions down on paper, but as soon as you say it out loud or you sing it, it's kind of like there's a certain it's, you're being very vulnerable, you know, to whoever's listening, you're, it's a very you're in a very vulnerable moment, because you're sharing with them something that you felt emotionally or, you know, that you put on paper, and now it's coming out in this kind of, In this emotional way. And so I took a stab at writing one of the songs. In fact, I wrote the love the love song first the lyrics, and I sent it to Ari, like you might hate. This is going to be horrible. I just remember, like, waiting to hear back because I emailed it over, and we were really good friends. That wasn't like, I was embarrassed to him, but I still it was just like, you know, I'd been this emotional kind of love song, and it took him a while to get back to me, which was probably like, five hours, you know, but still, it felt like an eternity. And then he was like, Okay, I gave it to my mom. And Ari is very much like he was in a fraternity. In in some ways, he's kind of like a dude. And he was like, Okay, well, I gave it to my mom and my mom really liked your styles, really good. Let's just try to write the songs. And this is after we had gone to so many composers, and I kept telling them, because all the composers we met with, they they were good composers, but I just didn't think they'd be good lyricists, but they would write the right songs. I felt, as the writers, we really needed to write them and so, and so we did. And it was a really rewarding experience, making that and writing it, and, yeah, and and then, you know, seeing it come to fruition was it was a really great, really great experience. So, yeah, music has always been a big part of my life. So you know that is that film is kind of just an extension of that.

Dave Bullis 8:10
So when you were putting this all together, and you finally were able to make it, and everyone was able to view it, did they finally understand the idea behind the complete the competing Fauci stands?

Kim Ray 8:22
Yeah, they did. They did. It was fun casting it too, because, you know, on the Israeli side, we had more freedom because we could cast, you know, people who were supposed to be Russian, or, you know, like people from all over, you know, that go, who are Jewish, who go to Israel, to live there, you know? So, yeah, it was, it was actually, it was a lot of fun making it and casting it, and, yeah, and and seeing it, having people see it, it was scary at first, because, you know, you really hope that people aren't offended and that people get it and they understand that it's a peaceful, you know, it's a message of peace and hope, and we're all alike, and why do we have to have these wars? And why do we have to have so much hatred and and so, yeah, there was a little bit of fear at first, but then everybody kind of embraced it. And this day, like, anytime I meet a Palestinian, they've seen the movie. So ran, or a lot of Israeli, yeah, or an Israeli, they've seen the movie. So it was shown a lot over there, and Ari went over there a lot with it. And, yeah, it was a popular short film, especially in the Middle East, apparently.

Dave Bullis 9:30
And that's awesome, by the way, because I was actually going to ask you about the reception of like, how they actually responded to it. Because, you know, you know, nowadays, whenever somebody makes anything. I mean, good. And look, you just touched on, you know, there you did fear for a little, for even a split second. You know, how are people gonna respond to this? Is there gonna be some bad backlash? Is there even gonna be any backlash?

You know, as you sort of, as we because you that was like, 2004 2005 as we go forward to today. You know, I do you think things are more sensitive now in terms of, if you were trying, like, let's just say Kim, you were trying to make the West Bank story right now, do you think that you'd have a lot more backlash?

Kim Ray 10:22
Um, I don't know. I mean, there's still not peace in the Middle East, you know, you know, maybe, maybe not. I think, I think people are always looking for a positive message. I really believe that, you know. And I think everybody, everybody kind of does, I mean, one of the first, you know, even like internet stuff, it's like, you know, you want to keep your message inspirational. What people say about when you're trying to market yourself or whatever. I think, I think people who are, who have a positive message, are kind of beacons in in the world we're in right now, because we are so divided, and there's so much, you know, anger and frustration and, you know, starting with, you know, our president, it's, I don't know, I think it would be, I think it'd be received just as well today, actually,

Dave Bullis 11:23
Yeah, you know, it's funny because it's Halloween. We're recording this on Halloween. And I said to somebody today, they said, Oh, Dave, I didn't dress up. And I said, Well, you can be a millennial and just be offended at everything. But, you know, it was, it was a funny joke, you know, because, I mean, I'm a millennial too, which it's just, you know, it was just funny, though, and, but, but, you know, I just, you know, we look out in the country today, and even, you know, and it's amazing, Kim, how fast everything has sort of changed, not only in film, but in the, you know, in the in the world, you know, cell phones are so fast. And where I'm going with this is, you know, everyone sort of knows news as it happens, you know, you soon as something happens, you get a notification on Twitter or what have you, and it's, you know, we become almost inundated with this and, you know, and that's why, I think sometimes people get a little more sensitive about things, because it seems like that's all it's happening. If that's all you're looking for. Do you know what I mean?

Kim Ray 12:18
Yeah, no, I do. I actually, you know, I was a huge fan of Hillary Clinton. I'm, I followed her since I was in college, and, you know, read all of her speeches. And really, you know, I'm the same person. I go down the rabbit hole, you know, I do all the research. I, you know, I really want to know who she was years ago. And really followed the campaign really closely, and a friend of mine is a PhD in this. He's getting his PhD at UCLA for want to say it's called information systems, but I could be completely relining that. Basically, he studies the internet and and he's also a journalist, and for in Denmark. He lives here in Los Angeles, though, and you know, so I was really aware from him, and also from a project that I did with Chris McCarville. He's the director of the Gaga film he and I did, we were, we did, kind of like a pilot for a show that that was about internet culture and just various things about about the internet. And the pilot that we did was about Russian trolls and Russian troll farms and what in particular they had tried to start this emergency situation in a small town, Louisiana. And so we kind of followed that story. And then throughout the election, my friend was, you know, alerting me to all the Russian ads that were, you know, how Russians were meddling in the election, especially in Wisconsin and Michigan, and what was happening there. And so I got really addicted to the news, you know, I mean, if I hadn't already been it was really addicted to news, and just hyper inflamed by everything I read, you know, especially, you know, if it was coming from, you know, the Trump camp or whatever. And but once, once, once the election happened, I really, I just kind of stopped, and because what happened was this thing that had never happened before, and there have been studies done on this and things written about it. You can look it up. I started. I have, you know, I have a I have the apple aggregator for news on my phone, like everybody with an iPhone or whatever program they use, that aggregates the news from all my favorite sources. So, you know, I do New York Times, Wired Magazine, CNN, you know, you name it, and all of a sudden the word Trump started showing up like every single article, Trump, Trump, Trump. And I had never, you know, we're all addicted to the news, but I had. Never seen one name cover all of my news feed before and and again, it was a phenomena, right like again, this is something that's been studied. It he the amount of news coverage that he's gotten since pretty much right before the election and post the election goes beyond the pale. I mean, it supersedes any other figure who's ever been covered by the news, and it's been sustained. You know, obviously, in part, because of the egregious things that he said done, the lies that he's told, blah blah blah blah blah, on and on. It's all newsworthy. But I just kind of, you know, wrapped my head around that. Was like, I'm kind of peace outing the news as much as I can. And because I was so angry, I was angry on my social media feeds, I was angry, and I just something, just snapped at me, and I was just like, it's the world isn't going to change if I whether or not I read every single news article. You know what I mean? Like, it's not I'm, you know, I grew up in an era of newspapers where you read the newspaper pretty much. When I lived in New York especially, I just read it on Sunday. Get the New York Times on Sunday, and that was it. So it wasn't so hard for me to kind of turn it off or not. I don't think I needed it, but I think I definitely turned it down, way down, because it's just not life is too short. That's my lawn response to that.

Dave Bullis 16:36
I agree. You know, it's I stopped. You know, Facebook, to me was, was like, was my version of your apple aggregator on your iPhone. I would log on to Facebook, and I made a very stupid mistake. Kim, I would log on Facebook first thing in the morning when I woke up.

Kim Ray 16:54
Yeah, no, same, same thing, because you're laying in bed, right? And you're waking up, and the first thing you do is you go to your phone, yeah, no, I'm with you, uh huh. And

Dave Bullis 17:04
It's, it's all it was, was bad news on top of bad news on top of more, like, terrible news. And I go, why am I subjecting myself to this? Like, you know, you know, first off, I, you know, what could I do about North Korea? You know, what can I do about this or that or the other thing. And I started to realize, you know, the less I was on Facebook, the better. And Twitter, I can control a lot more. And Facebook, it's just like it was. So finally I just stopped it all together. And you know what, Kim my gradually, I got happier again. I stopped worry about this stuff. Because, I mean, at the end of the day, you're just gonna say, if it's happens, it happens, and there's nothing that that, you know, we could do about it, so you stop really worrying about it. I mean, I have a friend of mine who goes on Facebook, and he used to do a lot of movie stuff, and all of a sudden he just, he's like, obsessed now with, like, going on Facebook and like seeing all this news and posting all this and he's guilty to a posting fake news. And I'm like, you know, what is that going to do for you? At the end of the day, you posted a news article that is most likely not true. What is that going to do for you? You know, it just, I don't really see what the point of that is.

Kim Ray 18:13
Yeah, I mean, I think it's one thing to be intelligently informed and to check different sources. If something interests you or disturbs you, it's just another thing to like you say, you know, be pouring through Facebook every morning and then pouring through the news and spending an hour going through all this stuff for several hours a day. It's just it's too much. On the flip side, I have to say, the good thing about the internet and this dissemination of information has been, you know, all of the sexual harassment stories coming out over the last like year, especially, you know, the most recent Weinstein story, because these women had no place to go before. They couldn't go to human resources, they couldn't go to their boss, they couldn't go anywhere. And now they can go to the internet. And even if it's just like, hey, this happened to me, and then another person's like, hey, this happened to me too. Even if it's just two people, it's powerful. But when it becomes 30, 40, 50, 60, people, women, who are like, hey, this happened to me, and it all. And then you start seeing how the stories are eerily similar, that's when I think that's when social media and the dissemination of data become important, and in the entertainment industry, it's also I came out of USC in 2005 and I had an agent at Uta, an agent, a manager and a lawyer, and I was doing really well in the beginning of my career, but and I write big budget sci fi action primarily. That's what I write, and that's what I'm interested in

And I had all these various projects, you know, semi development, or almost sold, or whatever, but I just, I wasn't stealing the deal. And it was really frustrating, because I would walk in, you know, to these producers offices, and I just, and they were all men. I never, I think once or twice I ever met with a woman, but, you know, all these executives and producers, and it was never, I was never like feeling the deal. And I really, you know, I like to think of myself as good in a room. I like to think of myself, self as personable. I like to think of myself as a good writer, as a good, you know, filmmaker in general. But I just it wasn't happening. And I got, you know, is getting really down on it, and that's kind of actually, you know, the film industry obviously, was changing, right? This is before Netflix was doing their own content, and studios were only putting out like eight movies a year, like the film industry was was changing, that's undeniable. But a few years ago, data started coming out and statistics started coming out for those years in terms of how many women writers were getting hired to write feature films. How many women writers were selling spec scripts? How many women writers were getting hired for writing rooms? How many scripts were selling that had female protagonists? And the numbers didn't lie. The numbers, excuse me, the numbers reflected my personal experience, which was that the doors, the door to entry, was shut, and very few women were getting through. And it actually, in some ways it was profoundly depressing, but in other ways it was profoundly encouraging, because I stopped blaming myself, you know, I stopped thinking, Oh, it's just because you weren't talented enough, or you weren't, you know, enough of a salesperson to sell your idea, or, you know, You couldn't communicate. You know, what your pitch was, or your concept, or this or that it was, it was because there was a bias, whether it was conscious, unconscious, whatever it was, there was a bias against women, and there still is, you know, I think the stories of the Harvey Weinstein, whatever, whatever, that's the most horrific example, right? But then you look at all the microaggressions in the microaggressions exist in the data that show how many female directors, and I was just going up for a lot of writing stuff. Forget directing me. My degree from USC, my MFA is in direct directing. My undergrad from University of Michigan is in film, and I feel like I didn't even, I was even trying that hard to direct. I mean, I actually ended up getting a job. I was working as a commercial director for production company, advertising company, for three years, which was great, while going out and trying to sell, you know, bigger projects. But it's, you know, I think, you know, there's, I guess my point is, there's good and bad in in the dissemination of news and social media and all that stuff. And it's like, we, you know, it keeps us aware, but it can also be, like, you say, debilitating. So it has, it definitely has an upside, and then it also has a downside, you know, like I know, looking at all the hashtag me too, over the last few weeks has been completely depressing, but also 100% you know, it needed to be seen. You know what I mean?

Dave Bullis 23:59
Yeah, and I do know. Do you know what you mean, Kim, you know, I think also you're right. That is a good, you know, a benefit of social media is that you can, you can not only share this news out like again. Harvey Weinstein, how that whole thing broke. And basically, if it wasn't for social media being as strong as it was, you know, would we be able to get it out there. Would he even be facing charges? You know, if it wasn't as strong first lady wasn't as strong as it was. You know, I actually had Cassian it was, I'm sure I just butchered his last name again on the podcast. I don't know if you know Cassian, but Cassian is a producer Dallas Buyers Club, the new Sundance hits mud, a mud bound, excuse me. And he actually, our whole episode, we talked a lot about this, about he looked at all the numbers of, like, you know, direct film projects and, you know, directed and written by women, and the number was, like 7% I think he said, and yeah, he actually, actually that, that that's like, his whole thing now is getting making more opportunities for, i. For women, because he wants to actually improve those numbers. And that's all so by the way, if you, if you're interested, I'm just gonna, sorry not to segue, but I was just gonna say it. Was gonna say that the whole episode that actually just aired right now on Halloween, and that's all it is, is it's all we talk a lot about that he's actually launched. He actually helped launch. Excuse the horizon Award, which sends to film, two filmmakers to women, filmmakers to Sundance. I mean, it's just, you know, the this guy, yeah. I mean, seriously, for

Kim Ray 25:30
Good for him, man, good for him. Because, you know what? At the end of the day, it's like all these women are out there trying to, like, you know, trying to say, Oh, we were to hire more women. But at the end of the day, men are still in charge. So they're the ones who have to do what he's doing. You know, not that they're 100% still in charge. It's changing. But if you're going to really change a power dynamic, obviously those in power have to, you know, put forth some kind of effort. And people rare, you know, I think people really want to do that, right? You really want to give away the key to the kingdom, but good on him. And he's like, you know, doing that, that's awesome.

Dave Bullis 26:06
Yeah, great guy, by the way. And I yeah, by the way, I'll give you guys a Twitter intro. I think you're really like, no serious Twitter is, I'm telling you, Kim, Twitter is one of the best networking tools around, and it's free, you know, I mean, look, we've been over twice.

Kim Ray 26:22
Yeah, no, that's a really good point.

Dave Bullis 26:26
So, you know, just to continue with your with your career, Kim, I see you did the X Factor, by the way, which I know you, you music has always been a huge part of your life. So I see you did the X Factor in 2012 and I wanted to ask, you know, how did you, you know, get into to producing the X Factor?

Kim Ray 26:43
Um, I had worked with one of the show runners for the X Factor on another project, and she got on X Factor, and she's like, we need, we need people like you, who can, who can write, you know, who can do story. Because initially they were going to, they were trying to kind of revamp the show a little bit so that the there would be the packages on the people who were competing and who were auditioning would be a little more beefed up. And because, honestly, in so many ways, like that's, that's the heart of the show, right? Are these people who have the dream of being a musician, and they're just and you see, you look into their lives and you see, like, how hard they've been trying to do this and for how long. And a lot of them, you know, started as children, and have, you know, gone to Nashville or LA or, you know, New York, and, you know, really sung those little arts out, you know, really tried three musicians. So being on the show was such a huge deal for them. So they brought me on to to put together the packages on on those people primarily. I mean, I did other things, but with the talent, with Britney Spears and whatever. But that was my main thing. And, yeah, it was. It was really heartwarming, actually. And the show is, the show was a machine. I mean, it was, I don't even know how many editors were working on that show. I want to say 20. It was a big show. It was a really big show. So, yeah, it was, it was an interesting experience.

Dave Bullis 26:43
Yeah, I was gonna say there must be, like, a million people working on that show. It came out like a bullet too, because, you know, all of a sudden it was, like every, every time I turn around, I saw something about the X Factor. I saw, you know, like a commercial for it, a billboard for it. You know, I saw ads on Facebook. I mean, that show had so much going behind it, just in marketing. You know what I mean, like, that's why I'm always like the shows like that. And it's an indicator too, because something has that much money in it has to be, you know what, the what the network wanted. You know what I mean, it has to be something that they view, they feel, is a is a viable product. So, I mean, Jae, so is producing for like live TV, like DAX. I know you also, after that, you've done a couple other of TV series, like Kendra on top and good food America. So when you're producing like live TV, you know, it was that any adjustment or any for you of any kind, because, you know, it's there really is no take backs or edits, so to speak.

Kim Ray 29:21
Yeah. I mean, on for the live portion of X factor. So there was a live portion, and there was all the stuff that we did beforehand. And so the live portion, there's like a 32nd or minute delay. So everybody, you know, everybody again, being a fine, you know, finally, honed machine. Everybody has all of their kind of all of their their roles that they play. And the show wasn't always live, because sometimes I'm trying to think, yeah, it wasn't all, oh, I'm thinking of the auditions.

Because I'm just trying to think if we had to cut together at one point, we literally cut together for the audition part, which was, you know, the kind of like the not live part reaction shots for Britney Spears and Simon and I'm blanking on her name, Paula, that we would reuse, that we would reuse over again, because we didn't have enough reactions that were good, you know, so we'd end up reusing their reactions, which is really funny, but for the live shows, yeah, there was a slight delay. It was a CBS Studios, and it was very, you know, it was very choreographed, like everybody knew, you know exactly what, what they were doing. And, you know, there were, there were, honestly, there were some surprises, but kind of very few surprises.

Dave Bullis 30:56
So, so basically, when it, when you go through, like, yeah, working inside of the X factor when you got out, when you, I'm sorry, make it seem like you're in jail. Sorry, let me rephrase that question, when you got in jail.

Kim Ray 31:10
No, really. I mean, you know, like I said, reality and dog TV was never my focus. It just, it just kind of happened because it was, I was having a really hard time get, getting into scripted, getting getting directing, you know, getting directing work and getting hired as a writer. So it was, and it came really easy, you know, it was, you know, it was just, it was just very easy for me to do. It was like riding a bike. It was not difficult. But go ahead,

Dave Bullis 31:40
Before I was, I was, you know, making it seem like you were in jail. So if you're, you know, you were, you got done producing the X Factor, and you went into producing Kendra on top, and, you know, also good food America and sex on so when you were producing, these are all episodics, did you sort of see Kim like how things were sort of progressing in terms of, you know, all the top talented people were moving, you know, out of, out of the film industry, and now they, as they say, all the, all the top talented people are working in the TV industry.

Kim Ray 32:14
Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, I, I know people. I have a friend who went to Princeton undergrad and went to USC grad for screenwriting, and is now one of the executive producers on Vanderpump Rules, like you know, but he's one of the reasons I have no doubt that the show is successful, because he's a brilliant, talented person, you know, and that even though these shows are not, you know, House of Cards, they're still, they require storytelling, and they require a lot of, you know, filmic kind of films, you know, a lot of skills. And that really did happen in like around 2000 just say, like, you know, once the recession hit, in like 2008 2009 film opportunities really started drying up, and my manager sat me down. He's like, you have to write television. Now, I was like, What are you talking about? Like, I just finished film school, like, Why do I don't want to write television? And, you know, at the time, like, I mean, sopranos, I think had just ended the wire had been on, but there wasn't a lot of, you know, great. There wasn't a ton of everything had to be at that at that point, standalone, you know, people didn't want the sopranos per se, or they didn't want the lawyer, they didn't want something that told a story over a season. And like anything else, TV was hard to get into. There wasn't as much of it as there is now. Blah, blah, blah. So yeah, reality came in, and everybody just kind of went that way, because it was easier to get jobs on reality, and if you knew how to write a script or had any kind of production experience, it was, it was easy. So, yeah, a lot of a lot of talent went to reality and Doc stuff. And Kendra on top was actually really funny, because I hate Hugh Hefner hate and I don't I'm the you know, I'm a feminist to believe he putting women in Bunyi ears and little outfits and making them look really fuckable was not an advancement for women and but I got a call, she sort of produced on the show called Kendra on top. And I had no idea who Kendra Wilkinson was. I had never watched The Girls Next Door. Obviously, I hate Hugh Hefner, so, you know, I was like, I don't really think I'm a good fit for that. And the person was like, No, really, you should go. In and just, just check it out. You know, she's actually, you know, her story, it's a light show, it's kind of a comedy. And, you know, she's, she's, you know, she's married, has a kid, and it's not that kind of show, and she's kind of, you know, a tough chick. So it's like, okay, so I went in and got the job and had never really story produced per se, and which basically, do you know what story producing is? Yeah, yeah. So it's just basically, you're taking the footage that was shot and cutting it into what is essentially, kind of like the rough cut that you that's that's then going to be given to the editor. So I did that. It was the first, I was given the first episode of the first season of the show. It was a new show that she was doing for WE tv. Previously, she had been on ETV, so the network was really, you know, kind of putting it through its paces, as they do when it's, you know, a pilot when it's, you know, it's his first show of a season, and I got kind of close with the very eccentric executive producer of the show. And, and by close, I just mean he would scream at me a little less than he screams, because he was a screamer. And, and we got along, you know, I was able to get along with him for whatever reason. And, but the guy who was my boss, supervising story producer, who works that position, works really closely with the field in crafting the stories and making sure that you know the stories are are you know that everything that's in the story is shot and that, you know, episodes track from episode to episode, and across the entire season, there are character arcs, or story arcs all that stuff. That guy within like, two or three weeks, really great guy named Kevin, I'm still friends with, couldn't take, couldn't take the environment at that production company anymore and quit. Just walk like, just no notice. It's just like, I can't do this anymore. And so they kept me for whatever reason. Again, I never even story produced. And they were like, will you be the supervising story producer on the on the show? And I was like, Sure, yeah, of course, you know. And I called Kevin, I'm like, Okay, what am I supposed to do as a supervising story producer? And he basically told me. I was like, okay, all right. And it was, it was easy and it was fun. I don't watch reality TV. I The only episodes of Kendra on top I've ever seen are the ones that we made and but it was fun to make it. You know it was, it was kind of fun television to make it. And I ended up doing it for two seasons because I was at the time, writing this kind of in depth, intense sci fi script, feature script. And it was great. It was a great job to have I was writing. So that's Kendra on top.

Dave Bullis 37:58
So Kim, I have to ask, when you touched on somebody who was a real big screamer, what? How do you handle situations like that? You know, everyone has sort of a different idea of how to handle that. Where somebody who maybe is your boss or maybe someone who is your co worker, they're just very hard to handle on a film set. How were you able to handle it? Handle it so well,

Kim Ray 38:22
Um, I just it was a combination of just waiting it out and or getting up and leaving. At one point I did in that first season, I just got up and left, and I was just like, I'm done. And his kind of second guy in charge, or whatever, like, called me repeatedly on the way home. Please don't quit. Please don't quit. He's so sorry. Please don't leave. And I was just like, I can't I just I can't. You know that's it's completely inappropriate. The yelling, and I don't know if he had said something personal or I don't remember what it was, but, and then the guy himself called and apologized, and I was like, okay, whatever. I guess, I guess I'll go back. And then, you know, of course, like all serial whatever, whatever, he was nice after that. I think, you know, entertainment business is a tough business. And I think any business, whether you know, there was a good McSweeney's thing recently saying, you know, if women, you know, are you familiar with McSweeney's? Yeah, yeah. So everything's all tongue in cheek. And it was like, kind of, you know, if women can't handle the entertainment business, they should get out, you know. And it is kind of funny, if they can't handle, you know, having meetings in a hotel room, you know, that, you know, instead of, you know, at a table, then you know, they're too sensitive and they should get out.

And then it was like, you know, maybe they should go into television, you know, like, talk about, like, Bill O'Reilly and, you know, and maybe they can't handle television, maybe they should go into tech, you know. And then it goes into tech, where the guy next to you is, like, you know, writing an essay on why women are inferior. And, you know, women are getting hit on when they're pitching their app ideas. As always, you don't want to do tech. You should go to politics. You know, where the President of the United States is, you know, saying, grab them by their pussy. So it was just, it was really hilarious, and it kind of, it kind of detailed, like, I think women have it tough, obviously, in every industry, and there's, I don't know, maybe there's more of a put up with it miss that women have. I don't know, but yeah, I mean, typically, if somebody, this particular person, I felt was, at the end of the day, harmless and just kind of crazy and it, it wasn't it. I was never sexually harassed or anything like that. It wasn't that kind of thing at all. I think if I'd ever felt Actually, I did work at Miramax back in the day when I first started, and did walk away with a check, because the environment was a sexist environment. And at the time I just I went into the guy was working for who, it's funny, this guy has now come out and said, Oh, I was so crazy that Harvey wanted to he was acting this way. I walked his office and said, You know, it's obvious I'm not the kind of assistant that you want. Maybe you should just, you know, write me a check and I'll leave. And he handed me a check request. I walked it down to accounts payable, and I left that company. It was a horrible company, and everybody knew it. So, yeah, no, I think, I think it depends on the situation. I think there are certain types of situations I would never stand for. You know, I would never stand first to be sexually harassed in an environment, but screamers and, you know, emotional people who are creative to lose their their shit from time to time. That kind of just comes with the territory. With creative people, they're not always the most professional business types that you're ever going to deal with. You know, same with talent, you know, you never, I mean, I don't know creative types are just more emotional and you there's a part of it that you just kind of got to accept that and roll with it.

Dave Bullis 42:39
Yeah, I concur there's the worst person I've ever had to work with was a director of cinematography who, well, it's actually toss up to the worst person I work with. But mine was a director of cinematography who thought that he was God's gift to everybody. And oh yeah, that guy. Yeah, that guy. You work with him too, all right, but y'all know that guy, yeah, we're exactly right. Everyone's got a story about that guy, but he would happen was he actually was, was, like, condescending to everybody. So finally, I call him over, and he and I started, you know, I said to him, did Is there something wrong? Is there Did somebody say something to you, is there something that happened? Let's just talk this out. And he basically took that as he I wanted to fight him, and he tried to, and I was like, and I said, Are you serious right now? And finally, this, it was, we were just about the day was just about over anyway, and we just broke early that day, and I said, this guy is never coming back. It's got it. We got to make a decision. I went to the producers, and I said, you have to make a decision. Either he goes or I go, like, this is absolutely terrible. And they chose me, and they were like, Yeah, we don't like him either, because apparently he mouthed off to them too. And I'm like, Oh, good. We all hate them. Weird agreements, all right,

Kim Ray 43:58
Yeah, let's get him out of here. Yeah. So it didn't come to 50 cups. You didn't have to, like, No, you didn't have to fight him.

Dave Bullis 44:04
No, not have to fight him. Thank God, because we were a public place too. So it would have gone well for anybody. It would have been, it wasn't like on, like, a closed set. It was like we were in the middle of the open, so in a public place. So we would have gotten, and we have permission to shoot and everything like that. It's just that, you know, two guys fighting in the middle of Philadelphia doesn't really bode well, but

Kim Ray 44:27
Right, right! Yeah, no, that's the other thing, right? Is that, in addition to emotions and feelings, you have egos, right? That you know that some people, their egos get out of whack. And whether it's because they're they have a ton of self doubt, you know, buried underneath, or because they think they're too good for the situation or the film or the project, or, you know, whatever, which, again, if they think that, it's probably just all boiled down to self doubt. But you. Yeah, it's, it's, this is tough. It's a tough business. And a lot of times, you know, especially, you know, in film and TV, and I need to tell you, you know, people are calling in favors, or there's, I don't know there's, there's always a million different things going on with every single person that's on set. And you either become like a family in a few weeks, a happy family, or you become a really dysfunctional, angry family, you know, depending on the crew.

Dave Bullis 45:30
Usually, yeah, usually for me, it's the latter. We become like this functional family. You love to hate them and hate to love them. So it's

Kim Ray 45:38
Right, yeah, exactly, exactly. But boy, do you miss him and you see him on Facebook, you're like, Oh my God, look what he just says. Did I love that guy? You know, yeah. Two years later, yeah,

Dave Bullis 45:49
Yeah, right. Because you end up being, ends up being a small world. And, you know, as you sort of go from project to project and and you sort of meet all these familiar faces. But you know, Kim, I wanted to ask, and this is the, you know, we actually met, because I saw, you know, this project being tweeted out. And I wanted to ask how you got involved with Gaga, five foot two Lady Gaga, obviously, I'm gonna, I mean, I think everyone listening knows who she is, unless you've been under a rock for the past 10 years. Yeah, I think everybody knows who Lady Gaga is. So I wanted to ask Kim, you know, how did you get involved with with the project?

Kim Ray 46:25
So Chris McCarville, the director, and I had worked together on sex on, so we met on the HBO show, sex on, which is a show about how sex and relationships exist online and with technology. So it was all about, like, you know, sex relationships, love and technology. And he and I are both super into music and technology and the internet and sci fi, and we were kind of a love fest when we first met. And so after sex on, we, we did the that pilot that I was telling you about, but the Russian trolls, and, you know, that had to do with the Internet of Things, kind of, and then we did another project that was also kind of like a development project. And then he, he had a meeting with Live Nation, and they said they might have this lady gaga documentary, that there was potential for him to direct it. And he got, he got really exciting because, oh, there might, you know, this might happen. I was like, Okay, well, you know, like, he's like, I really want you to produce it. I'm like, All right, great. Well, let me know if it happened. Because it just didn't seem, it just seemed like kind of a long shot, you know? And so then I think it was almost like a month later, a month went by, and he went, he met with Gaga producer, Bobby Campbell, and he and Bobby really hit it off. And he called me, and he's, like, I met with her manager. I really liked him. He's super cool. I think it's really gonna happen. And like, okay, great. He's like, okay, great. Well, you know, because, you know, I mean, there's always something right, like, there's always two or three or four projects that are maybe going to happen, or could happen, or, you know, and then they'll all go away, and then something else will come up. But you just never know. And I was so I wasn't really super excited about I didn't I thought it sounded cool, and, you know, obviously I would have been thrilled, but I just didn't know. And then another few weeks went by, I feel like, and he called me, and he's like, Okay, I got a call to go and film her house tomorrow. I'm like, No way. And he's like, yeah. He's like, it's happening. It's happening. And I was like, okay, so we got him, we he had a camera, and I think we just used a lens that he already had, because I don't think we even had a plan in place, yet we ended up shooting on can see 300 using Zeiss Super Speed lenses, fixed lenses, which was, which was an immense challenge, and in some ways stupid of us, but also brilliant, because it allowed us to, you always had to be close to her to film her within, like, A few feet. And I think you feel that in the film, which is what we wanted, we really wanted it to feel like a because he could. So he goes and shoots, is one day, and he comes back, and we sit down, we watch all the footage, and we're going to cut together this little kind of teaser to give to Live Nation. And we're watching it, and it's like he really got a sense, and you really get a sense of the food she shot the first day, a lot of which ended up in the film, of what, of what it was going to be like filming her, that it was going to be this really rare close up view of her

And then it was gonna be like this door would open and we'd go in, or just he would go in, or whatever, and then film, and then the door shuts, you know, and then, so we knew that, and that kind of contributed to the lenses and the camera that we chose and the way we chose to film it. We couldn't have a big crew, you know, you're not going to go into her house or get on her plane or go into her studio when she's recording with five people. She's never going to happen. So we needed to do something that was compact, that would allow for, you know, just a DP, a very discreet sound person who knew how to, you know, who could get out of the way, and often not like her, and and then a camera set up that, you know, Chris could use if he needed to. I shot for a minute in one of the locations. I think I shot the last step of the film where she's talking about shart, where she says shart in the credit like I was shooting that in Nashville. But, yeah, so, so he, so he did that. We put together thing for Live Nation, and they were like, you know, and then the next call I got was Chris on the phone with one of the VPS at five nation saying, Okay, we need a budget and a schedule. And this is like, oh, okay, I guess this is happening. I guess, I guess we're making this movie. So literally, we just immediately were in production, like it just like it was, like it was happening, right then, right, it was going. And we knew we were going to get a call soon to shoot again. And we sat down with her manager. We sat down with Bobby, and he kind of gave me a rundown of all of the things that she had coming up over the summer. This is like in June of last year of 2016 and he just kind of gave us, you know, this rundown like, these are all the things she has coming up. Let us know which ones would be interesting for you guys to film. What you know, whatever you think, these are the things that we think would be good. These are the days she's filming in Malibu. These are the days she's filming in New York, or not filming, I'm sorry, these are the days she's making the record. This is the day she's recording in New York. These are days she's recording in LA. And you know, if you want to do those that you know, let us know, you know what you know who's coming in, because Florence Welsh came in. And you know, there were days that obviously Mark Bronson was going to be there at blood pop, and other people that she was collaborating with that we wanted to make sure we got and so, yeah, we literally just, it's like the door opened and we were in and we were making the film, and we started, we didn't know, we didn't know that she was up for the Super Bowl. Like we didn't even know that. And I think within two months, we knew that she was up for it. There's, you know, I think after she does the DNC performance, she's in the car. I think this is still in the movie. No, I can't remember it now, but, but Bobby says to her, you know, I think we got it right, you know. Or I think we're going to get or she he says, It looks like we might get it. She's like, I think we're going to get it. And it was kind of news to us that she was even up for it. Once we knew she was up for it, we were just like, she's going to get it. Of course, she's going to get it. And we wanted her to get it, because we were like, This is the end of the movie. You know, we're watching because we just felt it. Immediately. It was like, this is the end of the movie, because she hadn't made an album three years she was making a new album. It was a huge departure from a lot of her dance music that, you know, she had done prior. And she was also, you know, she was doing this whole new look where she was wearing jeans and T shirts and instead of these crazy costumes, and, you know, these beautiful costumes, I should say, and masks and whatever else, it was very stripped down. And it was, it was completely new. So to see her do that through the course of the film, and then to be able to, you know, and also to kind of see her in this really stripped down, raw, real way that we were seeing her, and then to have the end of the because, and there were no, you know, she wasn't on tour. We filmed her a million times, you know, doing shows or performances. But they were all, they were all pretty small. She did a dive bar tour. She did the DNC, she did Tony Bennett Sunday at birthday. She did PR stuff, she performed in Tokyo, but nothing like, you know, one of her concerts, or, you know, or in a stadium, or like the Super Bowl. So it, you know, it was just such a it was just such a no brainer. We knew she was at fourth ago. This is the end, and we can see, so that we see this person, this, you know. And I'm five nine. So to me, she always is, like, so small. We were in the edit. I was like, explaining to the editor, who hadn't met her yet, but of course, had spent 1000s of hours with her, you know, in his mind, you know, in reality, you know, watching her on on screen. And I was like, it's so amazing, because she's like, this little person. I mean again, to me, because I've always felt as a woman, I've always felt big because I'm, I'm almost five, nine and, and then I just, I kind of started saying, he pops, you know, I'm facilit wand and, and that ends up being a possible title. Chris was like, oh, maybe that's a title. Because we were, we had, we had a million titles, and we could not naming anything is the worst. So that ended up going on the on the title list and but yeah, so it was, it was a real windfall for her to do the Super Bowl, because then we could see this stripped down, small person do this thing that was larger than life, and see how she did it. You know, for us, anybody can go on YouTube and watch her Super Bowl performance from beginning to end. What we wanted to see was the viewpoint of what it's like backstage, what it's like when she's, you know, rehearsing in her sweatpants, you know, when her hip hurts in that back room. And that back room really was where everybody hung out and stayed it's not a beautiful place, you know, it's like, but that's the reality is of what, what it's like behind the scenes. And for us, it was, you know, all of it was kind of fascinating. It was really, it was really fascinating to be, to be in that world for the time that we were in it.

Dave Bullis 56:39
So what was your most memorable experience making the making this documentary?

Kim Ray 56:50
There were so many, I mean, the most, the thing that one of the things that really stuck with me was everywhere we went with her, we, you know, you'd go in an SUV. You know, there'd be like, several black SUVs or vehicles, and you'd enter through the security entrance and go up a back elevator. You enter, you enter spaces the most ugly way. You know what I mean, like, you kind of enter every space you're like, the same way a messenger might enter that space, you know, or something like that, just the most you know. You're not going typically, through the palatial, you know, front entrances of any of anywhere. You're always just going through the bottom to get her up to a back room that's like a green room, fitting room in it, and she's in, you know, a makeup hair room with all of her, you know, closest people who are helping. And then there's, you know, another room that's all the production people and the musician related people. And, you know, I mean, there's, there's several rooms of people, wherever she goes, whenever she performs, it for anything, or does an appearance. And the interesting thing, so that was interesting. And then we would go, we would go in, you know, that way, and then we go and set up our cameras, you know, and sound or whatever, and then go back down to the street to film often. And the barricades would be up, and all these people would be out there, like waiting for her, and we'd be filming from behind the barricades. And it was a really surreal experience, because you just see how much these people revere her. And you know, at one point, she did a show in LA and I was interviewing people, because we thought what might be interesting for the film, because your album had just come out, to talk to people about her and her music and what, you know, why they were such fans. And afterwards, I walked into the venue, and just like, start crying. So it's like, oh my god, you know, like people, it's not just, you know, hero worship or whatever. It's like people identify with her because of her message of, if you don't fit in, if you're an outsider, that's cool, you know, that's a great thing to be, you know, especially from being born this way and all that. So that was, that was a huge that was kind of, that was super memorable. It's also memorable when she, we were in Tokyo and we were, she was getting, she was practicing for this performance on this show, and I was filming, I think I was filming Chris, filming her, so I think I was just filming with an iPhone, so filming him, filming her, and she walked over to me, she's like, I'm really sorry, but just a close set. We just really need to focus on this so and like she was kicking me out. Like I looked at her, I go, it's me, it's Kim for the doc. And she's like, Oh my god, I'm so sorry. She's like, you're like me, you're like a chameleon.

I never she's like, you always have your hair different. I never know. She's like, it always takes me a minute to know it's you. And she was like, so clean, like, hugged me and was like, really sorry. But it was like, if we've been filming her for like, two months at that point, I was like, Really, you're kicking me out. Like, obviously, I got to stay. But yeah, so that was funny. We really, I mean that just also just goes to speak to we really tried to be slides on the wall, like we were. It's 100% different than making reality TV. When you're making reality TV, it's like, okay, Kendra, this is the scene. So you're going to come in and you're going to be mad at this person for what they said or what you thought they said, and you guys are gonna have an argument. Okay? Everybody ready? Okay, action, you know, I mean, and then they improvised it out however they're gonna do and but making a doc, especially about Lady Gaga, who is actually doing things in the moment, and you know, whether she's rehearsing for the Super Bowl, or for a program she's about to be on in Tokyo, or making a record she is busy, and so you're not, you're the last thing you're trying to do is to get in her way, you know. So, yeah,

Dave Bullis 1:01:15
Yeah. I mean, because I imagine, you know, she the way you're where you're describing it, Kim, she had a small army and then to make a film as a small army. So it's so now they make up a giant Yeah. So yeah,

Kim Ray 1:01:27
The army was often just Chris and I. Our army was typically Chris and myself and a sound person and a DP. That was typically we didn't even have, we often didn't even have a PA. In fact, we didn't even have a data transfer person. I would, at the end of the shoot day, do all the data transfer from the cards to drives in my hotel room. I did. I did all that because A, I didn't trust anybody with the footage. And B, there was just, was no, there was just no point in high, you know, and break. We couldn't really bring anybody else on at one point in New York. We had a PA for a little while to drive us places or to go grab stuff if we needed it. But we didn't really, you know, or we'd have, we had a production coordinator in LA that we'd have in the in our office. We had two production coordinators here in LA that we would have go do stuff or whatever. But typically, we were filming it was, it was super minimal.

Dave Bullis 1:02:29
Yeah, I was gonna say, I imagine it was probably like, it's guerla filmmaking. You know you're getting your hands dirty. You know you're, you're one minute, you're producer, next minute, you know you're transferring footage. It's all for the love of the game, right Kim?

Kim Ray 1:02:42
Yes, exactly it is. And you know, if you love it, if that's what you love, then you don't care, because you love it, you know. And I I really love filmmaking, and I love storytelling. And you know what's not to love about, you know, running around with a camera after Lady Gaga. I mean, you know, there's no, you're not going to complain about that. So, yeah, it was, it was great. It was fun.

Dave Bullis 1:03:08
And were you surprised when Netflix picked this up?

Kim Ray 1:03:12
No, not really, because, you know, the film was financed by Live Nation, and there were multiple people who were interested. And so, I mean, I even have friends who who buy films for studios, and they were interested. So we kind of, we just didn't know who the buyer was going to be. That was up, and that was, that was up to Live Nation. So they, they controlled the movie.

Dave Bullis 1:03:38
And the the film is on Netflix right now, correct?

Kim Ray 1:03:42
Yes, it is. You can stream it from the comfort of your own home. You don't have to leave the house. You can go, yeah, you can watch it anytime, anywhere.

Dave Bullis 1:03:51
And I will also link to that in the show notes, along with the trailer and all the other good stuff that you know. Kim and I have discussed in this in this whole conversation, Kim, I just have one more question before we close out. You know, what are you working on next?

Kim Ray 1:04:07
So right now, as we speak, I'm waiting to hear from my an editor whose name is Darren Navarro. He's a great editor who's done, I love dick and ballers, and those two shows together are not right. And also, yeah, I'm sorry, yeah, pardon my French, no, but he entered this he edited the film the end of the tour with Jesse Eisenberg as well, and he just a great editor. So he's overseeing the edit on a short film I just shot, called I directed, I wrote and directed, called violets, new life. And it's a short, but it's also kind of a, it's a it's a pilot presentation, it's a show presentation. It's about the short is about violet, who takes place maybe five or 10 years in the future. Who just had her mind downloaded into a 35 year old synthetic version of herself. She had a terminal illness at 72 and decided to go ahead and have her mind downloaded into a synthetic body. And so she is picked up by her adopted daughter, Joyce, and they go to her funeral. And that's the short film. So the show is basically, the show is called Violet's new life, and it's about violet acclimating to to life as a 35 year old. And, you know, I mean to be 72 and a 35 year old body is pretty crazy. So it's, you know, again, I'm super interested in technology, and I don't want to die. I don't want to die, and I don't really even if there is an afterlife, which, let's hope, you know, let's hope there's something else I'm not conscious of it now I don't know what that is, and that kind of pisses me off. And it pissed me off that my life is so short, so, but then, you know, when you think, okay, so great. What if, you know, you take all of your life's experiences, you live to your 72 and you get to be 35 again. What's that like? You know? What? How do you acclimate to life? You know, knowing everything you know, and being able to do that. So, yeah, so that's the show is like a took a 30 minute dramedy along the lines of transparent or insecure, or, I love dick or glow. So, so, yeah, so I'm, I've written the first two episodes and kind of outline the first few seasons, and we'll be taking that out in the next five month or two and submitting it to Festival, the short, the short film, to festivals. And that's why I'm working.

Dave Bullis 1:06:52
Well, I was gonna say, because I know, again, as we're talking about TV, that's where it's at right now. And, you know, I even when I discuss things, you know, I don't have an Agent Manager, but as soon as I just start discussing things with a myriad of people, they always say, Well, do you have, like, a TV pilot or something, or anything TV episodic related? And I'm always like, well, I, you know, I'm kind of slow, Kim, but I started to notice a pattern. And I'm like, Okay, I see it. So by the I mean, and I even shot a TV pilot myself a couple years ago, and I actually put it up on YouTube right now. So it's, yeah, it was actually pretty cool, because where I shot right after me, we shot at a studio right down the street from my house, and here in Philadelphia, and right after us, Emma Shalon came in to shoot After Earth with Will Smith. So Oh, wow, that's cool. Yeah, they were like, Guys, you have to leave soon because, well, M Night and sham line and Will Smith are coming in the day after you guys break and like, All right, we'll have everything cleaned up so, but, yeah, I have it up on YouTube right now. It's all free. It's pretty cool. But, but, yeah, I mean that, see that that's one of the things I hope people take away is, you know, you don't want to be in a room and they in, somebody ask, What else you got? And you're like, Well, I don't have any episodic stuff, because I now realize that's the way in right now, is there is to make sure you have episodic things. But So Kim, I want to say it's been a blast talking to you. Where can people find you out online?

Kim Ray 1:08:18
Um, you know, on Twitter. I'm on Instagram. I am Kim Ray on Instagram. Kim Ray on Twitter. Pretty much I don't have a website. I've been toying with the idea of a website, but I'm kind of like, you know, what am I going to do? Put I don't put clips from my movies or pages from my scripts on a website. I don't know. I'm not sold on having a website right now. But what do you think?

Dave Bullis 1:08:40
Well, I think really depends on what your strategy is, because I think if you're gonna, if you're gonna mainly be, you know, talking to other people and and sharing, like trailers and stuff like that, you know, I again, I'm big on Twitter. I and I think it's wherever you feel the most comfortable that that's usually my advice, because, you know, any any tool is only as good as the person that wields it. So yeah, that's my sage advice, Kim. I sound very sad, but

Kim Ray 1:09:08
Well, thank you. Thank you very much.

Dave Bullis 1:09:11
Everybody I will link to everything Kim and I talked about in the show in the show notes at my website davebullis.com so you go there for for all the podcasts, all the other stuff that I'm doing, all the craziness and everyone. I want to say, thank you so much for listening, Kim I want to say, thank you so much for coming on. This has been an absolute blast, and I hope everyone checks out. Gaga, five foot two by the way, Kim, do you know Gaga follows me on Twitter?

Kim Ray 1:09:39
No way.

Dave Bullis 1:09:40
I'm dead serious. I swear she follows me on Twitter.

Kim Ray 1:09:43
Oh, my God, she doesn't follow me on Twitter. I know because I never asked. I should ask her social media person, can she please follow me? I don't think she follows. I even know her manager, Bobby and I follow each other on Instagram. But, yeah, wow, you're you that's that's pretty impressive.

Dave Bullis 1:10:00
I don't even remember, can you believe this, Kim, I don't even remember how it happened. I just remember one day I was like, what? This can't be the real and it's the real. Lady Gaga verified and everything, and she follows my personal Wow. Look at Jae, yeah. Seriously,

Kim Ray 1:10:14
You should DM her. You should DM her.

Dave Bullis 1:10:16
I should, I should be. Hey, I had your producer on on the podcast. Come on.

Kim Ray 1:10:21
Tell her. You should tell her for sure. That's awesome.

Dave Bullis 1:10:26
That person I kicked out off the set that one day, like it's the same one. Gaga. That's funny. So Kim, I want to say again, thank you so much for coming on, and I wish you the best.

Kim Ray 1:10:39
All right, thanks so much, Dave you too.

Dave Bullis 1:10:41
Take care. Take care Kim.