IFH 863: How One Tweet Can Change Your Screenwriting Career with Jeanne Veillette Bowerman

Alex Ferrari 1:50
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:55
All right, everyone, thanks again for joining me. Joining me today is Jeanne Violette Bowerman. Jeanne is the editor and online community manager of scriptmag.com and she's also the co-founder and moderator of the weekly Twitter Screenwriter Chat, which is #scriptchat. And she's also wrote the narrative adaptation of the Pulitzer Prize-winning novel Slavery by Another Name. And furthermore, Jeannie has a script in the top 25 of the tracking board, and was named one of the top 10 most influential screenwriting blogs by Stephanie Palmer. Well, Jeanne, how are you?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 2:28
Good, how are you?

Dave Bullis 2:29
I'm doing pretty good. It's, you know, just another mild day here in Philadelphia. How's everything in New York?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 2:35
It's, it's, it's actually mild, little, you know, compared to the storms we've had lately, it's nice,

Dave Bullis 2:43
So, so, Jean, just to get started, could you give us all a little bit about your background, and you know how you got started.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 2:50
Well, I actually went to the hotel school at Cornell, and I owned a motel and restaurant for 15 years, and then, and when I turned 40. I kind of was like, okay, I'm a stay-at-home mom with no kids at home, and I had closed the business, and, and, and I always want - I had always wanted to write, and so I started writing a novel, and I had no idea what the hell I was doing, and one of my friends from college said that once you had a screenplay, they're, you know, they're easier, and well, and at the time it, I could see why someone would think that, because it's only like 110 pages, you know, compared to hundreds of pages for novel, and but obviously, as you know, as the years progressed, and I kept writing more and more, I realized that the unbelievable art to, and to writing a script that's so different than writing novels, which I'm also, I'm also writing some novels too now, but it, so I kind of just got started that way, just kind of went into it without knowing what the hell I was doing, which is probably, in some respects, looking back on it, the best way to do it, because I think if I had known how difficult it was to break into this industry, how hard it was to write a screenplay effectively and well, that might have intimidated me. And so I think for me, definitely ignorance was bliss, for sure. And then I started, well, writing slavery by another name, I started getting on, I got on Twitter, so that I could kind of meet other screen readers and get a buzz going to the projects, but I didn't realize at all the power of Twitter and the incredible network you could develop there, and because of the network from Twitter, it's really how I got Script magazine found me, and I was first a columnist there, and then now the editor. It's how I've met so many people. My current writing partner, who's on Twitter, known as Unknown Screenwriter, I've made so many incredible connections, and also how Script Chat was formed. So, really, social media is in a. Incredible way for somebody who lived outside of LA to make some groundwork,

Dave Bullis 5:05
And that's how we met too.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 5:07
Yeah, absolutely.

Dave Bullis 5:10
So, what exactly were you tweeting so that Script magazine was able to find you?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 5:16
Well, when we started Script Chat, Joshua Stecker was the then online editor of Script magazine, and he is amazing at social media, really great with Twitter, and he noticed the hashtag Script Chat, and since it's Script magazine, it caught his attention, and he's also a big history buff, and so when, and a journalist, you know, and so when he saw the project I was working on, Slayer by Another Name, he and that my partner in that project was the author of the book, who at the time was a senior national correspondent of the Wall Street Journal, and Joshua was just really intrigued by the whole project that we're working on and offered us an opportunity to just do one blog online about the project, and after getting to know me for over the course of the following year, that one blog turned into my weekly column, Balls of Steel, which I don't have the time to write weekly anymore, but and that's how Balls and Steel was born, and that's how Script magazine found me, and then once Baldwin Steve wasn't deal was born, and then they needed an editor. I raised my hand, you know, because it's nice having a day job that's in the, in the industry.

Dave Bullis 6:32
So, so you know, you use this as a great networking tool, you know. Have you gotten other, like, you know, writing jobs just from people finding you on Twitter, like sort of, like, you know, they try to contact you to write scripts for them.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 6:43
Yeah, like, there's a guy who's from London, Clive Frane. He got me together and some other people he was in at the time, he was in Milan. We had a writer in New Mexico, one in LA, and one in London, and we were working on a TV project that we were going to have that was going to be picked up in London, and ended up losing funding at the last minute, but it was an incredible experience to work on a TV show that, even though it didn't get greenlit, I still learned so much, and it was in my episode with a whorehouse hostage takeover, which was so much fun to write, and it was great, because it was just another way for me to.. I didn't know what the hell I was doing, but I just rolled with it, and it's another way to just step. I totally stepped outside of my comfort zone doing it, because I didn't know what you know. I wasn't a TV writer, you know, and I just kind of imagined someone standing behind me holding remote control, so that, you know, at any time they could click away, and that that really helped me. But yeah, so I got that, and I got another gig writing like educational videos that we wrote like in a sitcom format, and that was from some director I met on Twitter. I mean, I've gotten a lot of gigs, side gigs, and my job really from people I met online,

Dave Bullis 8:17
So I'm sorry, I have to go back for that. It's hassle taker, it's actually a hostage situation at a whorehouse.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 8:24
Yeah, it was so good. And then when I wrote it, they ended, and I killed this character in it, and they ended up the character who I just made up for the episode in order to kill him, and and they loved the character so much, they were like, okay, you have, you can't kill him now. You have to keep him alive, because we want to use him in another episode. I was like, "Oh, shit. So, I had to come up with a whole other way to figure out how to, you know, what the climax of my episode was going to be now, because they just took it away. But it was, but it was really, really fun experience.

Dave Bullis 8:57
You know, it's funny. I have a friend of mine, he wrote something called House of Horrors, and basically it's like, imagine if Hostile, the movie Hostile and Home Alone mixed, that's what House of Horrors is, and it's like they have all these, they sell these traps, and they find out, like, you know, these prostitutes are leading these guys into this, you know, this truck stop area, and then killing them one by one, and then they, the guys triggered the other hand by saying these traps, and it's just, it was funny, because he told me he sent it out, and some of the reactions that he gets, just by the name alone, he's like, people are like, I don't know if I want to read this, to, you know, you know, this, I don't know, because it's a comedy horror, so it kind of falls that gray area, have you seen a lot of things like that, you know, where sort of scripts sort of get passed over, mainly over, over, like, you know, just because of, like, the title, or even just, you know, the logline.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 10:01
Yeah, I mean, I think it's so much easier for them to say no than it is to say yes, and, and it, you know, because when you think about it, like in the publishing world, like I've got a lot of friends who have met online who are novelists, and I watch them pump out novel after novel after novel, whether it's with traditional publishing or whether it's felt published, because it doesn't take millions of dollars to publish a book, you know, but to create a turn a screenplay into a movie takes can take millions of dollars, so it's so much easier for them to say no and not get in trouble with their boss, you know, for saying yes to something that you might bomb, you know, and also the way the economy is now, you know, after the crash in 2008 it's just different, they're not, they're not willing to take as many chances, you see so many more writers now doing web series, doing things that you know, looking to put their shows on YouTube, like you know, just anything outside of the box of traditional production, because it's just you have to be creative and think of a different way to get your story out there. I even encourage writers to write their scripts, turn them into novels, because then they're intellectual property, and half of what Hollywood does is half of the films that are out are out of patience, so you know now you're opening up your script for 100% of the market, not just passes the market by being a non-intellectual property, so and I am seeing some writers do that and give that a shot, I mean, and then they, and some, I've got a friend who fell in love with, with the process, and now just wants to write novels,

Dave Bullis 11:48
Interesting, you know, I actually have a question from the, from one of the audience members, they, they actually, I guess, let me actually ask it now, since you know it is just about what we're talking about, it says I want to turn my screen, my screenplay into a novel, novel, excuse me, a la William Peter Blatty, who wrote The Exorcist, and he says, Do you think that this is a viable way to get my screen to get my screenplay and further work noticed by creating a website and then directing everyone there? So I think what he's doing is he's trying to, you know, create a book, and then when, if someone was adapted, you can automatically say, 'Hey, I have this screenplay.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 12:25
Yeah, I mean, I think that I think I think one of the, one of the many lessons I learned from Doug Blackmon, who wrote Slavery by Haber Name, is when you have this piece of, you know, this this thing that you created, whether it be a book or script, or whatever, you know, to think about all the different ways you can tap into that to utilize that piece of property, that instead of just thinking of this is just a feature film, you know. Period. You know, the keys got the book and turned it into a documentary for PBS. I wrote that at the narrative adaptation with him, he, it's, it's study material for classes, he'd love to make a play out of it. I mean, like, you have to think about, like, all the different things you can do with that piece of intellectual property that you have, and, and so, if it's the other benefit, too, just as a writer, is knowing that if you turn it into a book, if you publish it, and self-publishing is an absolutely credible option. Now it's not considered vanity publishing anymore. So, you, you killed yourself to write this script, you killed yourself to write this story. You must love it if you're going to be pitching it and staying with it, if you haven't abandoned it yet, so why not put it in some sort of form that people can read it, so it's not just sitting on your hard drive, and even if it never sells as a screenplay, people are out there reading your words and reading your story, and you're getting some sort of validation back from that, and it's part of why I blog, because when I blog, people are reading my words, even if it's just 1000 words, somebody's reading it, you know, and it makes me feel there's a sense of satisfaction in that as a writer, instead of having everything I do just sit on my hard drive, and, and, you know, if it doesn't get made into a movie, nobody sees it, so yeah, I would definitely tell them, yes, do it.

Dave Bullis 14:22
Oh, excellent. And you know, I, that's something I brought up too, too, because I actually brought up graphic novel adaptation, because you know, I was actually listening to another podcast, and they brought up, you know, how to go to Amazon, and you can create a Kindle version, and then they also brought up how to create an actual physical version that's basically print on demand, so that way you know it's a win-win for everybody, so you know, and like you said, it's not vanity anymore, you know, self-publishing. I was talking about a guest, I forget off the top of my head which guest was, but they actually brought up the fact that it would take a lot for them to actually go back to, you know, pitching again to like Penguin. Right, or you know, random books, because they, they think it's more viable now to just self-publish yourself, create your own Amazon store, and go and grow off your own website, like, like you have, if you have your own blog, and now you have people going directly to your website, which is genieveebee.com and you know, people can now, you know, see all your other work, so it's like you're your own marketing department, pretty much, and your own, your own content creation, everything.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 15:26
Well, and one of our, one of our script chat co-founders, Jamie Livingston, and I should mention the other co-founders are King Garland and Zach Sanford. Jamie took a little break from screenwriting and started writing novels, thinking she would just, oh yeah, write a couple novels, but her novels have become so popular that she can't stop writing them, because their audience wants another one. And she joined together with, and forgive me, Jamie, if you're listening, and I get this wrong, but I think this is how it went. She joined together with six other authors, and they are the unlucky seven, and they, they sell their books collectively together, these thriller books, seven thriller books, and they are like USA Today best-selling authors. They might even have just become New York Times best-selling authors. I don't know, I'll have to look that up and see, but if you look up Unlucky Seven, you can find them, and, but, and this is this is a woman who's, you know, a screenwriter, and said, I need a break, I need to do something different, and started writing these novels, and she did easily turn them, these new series, because she has series of novels, so she could easily turn them into a TV show, into what, you know, all different kinds of things, and but those stories are out there to get attention from people, and you know, you gotta write, if you're a writer, you need to write, and, and there's no point in writing something that nobody ever gets to read.

Dave Bullis 16:50
Yeah, I'll link to that in the show notes to the Unlucky Seven, but yeah, that's pretty interesting, and you know, and again, you know, just creating like this podcast too, is it's just a different way, I know it's not writing, obviously, but you know, I just use that sort of ethnic, it's good because it's something I wanted to do just to do it, it was sort of like on my, my 2004 things to, you know, get started list, because I was part of other podcast, you know, and, but you know, but you know, it's also, I think, another way to, you know, get exposure for not only me, but the guests, you know, somebody ever stumbles upon something, you know,

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 17:29
Absolutely, absolutely, and Script Chat did that for us very much, though, like it got us exposure, it got us recognized by people, you know, people then would start contacting us to say, you know, I want to be a guest on Script Chat. I mean, it's a great networking tool, and it also is a.. it's not just that, it's.. it's.. it's a pay-it-forward thing, you know, where you're.. you're talking about something you love, and you're also giving this, you know, content to your listeners, so that they can learn, and it leaves you feeling warm and fuzzy, and leaves people feeling warm and fuzzy about you, and it's just a win-win.

Dave Bullis 18:06
Yeah, absolutely. So, so you know, Jeannie, you know, could you give us, you know, just to switch topics, but could you give us, you know, what is your daily writing life like? I mean, like, what is your daily, you know, your daily routine, like

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 18:23
Insane

Dave Bullis 18:27
With two questions, and I figured, you know, what I might as well just ask this with Kill Two Birds One Stone.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 18:33
Yeah, well, okay, there's things about my life that people, you know, I'm one of those feels like really open about stuff, I'm not. I don't try to pretend I'm something I'm not, or anything like that. I mean, I am. I am my reader at Script magazine. I'm hustling, I'm writing, I'm trying to juggle a day job and a family, and.. and I have one daughter in college, and my son is a senior in high school, and so we've been applying to colleges and doing all that kind of stuff, and I've got pets, and I've got an at Script magazine. What a lot of people don't know is I don't have a team at Script, it's just me, and I have 60 contributors, so I manage these 60 contributors and edit all of the work that you see online, and so it's, it's juggling, it is challenging, but what I've discovered is that, you know, I think one of the biggest blessings for me that works for me, for other people, I think what really works for them is to have the nine to five job, where you go, you just focus on your work nine to five, and you come home, and you don't have that kind of job where you know you have to take it home with you, you might have to work on the weekends at night, and then you can just focus on your writing on those off hours. For me, my job is not like that, because I have people from all different time zones. I've got writers in LA, and I have writers in London, so I get emails all the time. And since they're freelance writers, a lot of time they're working and writing their articles on the weekends. They don't have boundaries of nine to five, so I can't have boundaries of nine to five, so that's the challenge for me in finding time to write, and, and when your kids are hungry, your kids are hungry, they want dinner on the table, I'm, you know, and I'm still pretty old-fashioned that way, you know, like I still have dinner on the table every night, and you know, all that kind of stuff, but so what I do is, I find that I never used to be a morning writer, like right now, while we're talking, my, my daughter's texting me because she's at the supermarket, and one hold on, okay, I'm gonna ignore her, so and so, so what I do is I get up in the morning, and I, and I try to just write, like, as soon as I get the kid off to school and get the dog fed, I sit down and I try to write, because I find that if I try to do all my other stuff first and then write, I'm too tired at the end of the night, like I can't write after dinner, like I know a lot of people can write at night, late into the night, I can't do that, I'm too tired. I want to, I want to drink, I'm done. So I start my day writing, and then I'll pop in, check my email at work, make sure everything is okay, and then as soon as I'm like okay, capped out, wrote that scene, wrote whatever it was. My goal was for the day, even if I honestly, Dave, even if I only write for 15 minutes, I have to write something, because, or else I'm just a bitch. Like, it gets me irritable, like I didn't take care of myself today. It makes me, then, as the day goes on, I start getting resentful, because I didn't, I didn't do what I wanted to do, so I try really, really hard to do that. I'm not always successful, but I do try to write in the morning, and then, and then I, and then I go full, full on into my day job, and just work, work, work, work, work, and then if, but if I'm inspired, and I want to keep writing in the morning, and I just am on a roll, I keep writing, and then I, then I will many, many nights I will end up doing my day job until 11 o'clock at night, because I have to do what I didn't do during the day, but I'm very blessed to work from home, so that I have that flexibility to tap into my creativity when I'm feeling it, and I know a lot of other people don't have that, but and then I try on the weekends, I dedicate Sunday fun day, you know, and so I try to do all my mom's stuff on Saturdays, so that on Sunday is my day, and I can just write, that's how I find works for me

Dave Bullis 23:02
Excellent, so you know, because a lot of people do work the nine to five, and sometimes there are like, you know, people who are on call, so like, if they do work the nine to five, suddenly they're getting, you know, calls at, you know, 8o'clock at night, you know, yeah, exactly. So is

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 23:18
The other thing, too, other than interject for a second, the other thing, too, is to try to write on your lunch break, like you know, just really be disciplined and write any second you can. I'm actually one of my friends had contacted me the other day, nervous, he had an opportunity for to take on a gig to write a script and actually get paid to do it, and he was very nervous to say yes, because how am I going to find the time to do this, and and so I put a call out onto Facebook and onto Twitter for people to give me advice about how they work a day job and get writing done, and people sent in a ton, ton of comments and tweets, which I've collected, and I will write a future balls and steal about this, just bullet listing everybody's ideas of how to get, how to get that done. I probably won't write it for a couple of weeks, but when I do, I'll shoot you the URL.

Dave Bullis 24:11
Oh, thank you. You know, because you know, I speak of, you know, you said writing at least 15 minutes, and I remember I got advice before from somebody from an actual working writer in LA, and he said the same thing, because basically he said as long as you can just even get a small amount done, he said by the end he actually timed it out. He said if what he tries to do is it's at least 15 minutes a day, and at most he said he'll just do it till he like sort of burns out, and on those magical days when you know, sort of everything his schedule clears up, and basically he tries to get a rough draft done within like three to four weeks. Have you heard? I mean, is your style similar to that? We try to get, you know, just that first draft, bang guys quickly as possible.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 25:05
Well. Yes, I'm actually trying a different process right now, which I'll discuss in one second. I just want to say this about what this current topic, so that I don't forget, but one of the beautiful things about the 15 minutes is even just, even just getting, if you spend it, what's going to happen is your mind is still going to be thinking about it all throughout the day, and, and so that 15 minutes really is a lot more than 15 minutes, because even if you're not putting words on the page and you're thinking about it, that counts as writing, because you're digesting and developing the story in your head, and, and the other trick I would say that helps you pick right up quickly, would you only have 15 minutes, is don't finish like never, never completely finish a scene, so that you have, and say, okay, now I'm done today, because I finished the scene. If you, if your goal is to finish that scene, finish it, but then start the next scene before, and then stop for the day, because if you've already started the scene, your head's going to be thinking about that scene throughout the day. So, when you sit back down, you're not looking at a blank page, and you've already been digesting it, so you can just kind of hit the ground running. Those are little things that I think have helped me.

Dave Bullis 26:27
So, so then, so what process now are you using to write this new script?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 26:35
Oh yeah, oh my god, I am so far out of my comfort zone, Dave. It, I just, I just had a long talk with Unc about this yesterday, because I was freaking out, because it's so different than what I normally do. I normally outline, I'm like an outline junkie, and I think part of it is because I hate starting things, so outlining, I just, you know, outline, outline, and I kind of sometimes use it too much as a safety net, I, and even though I never really, I stick to the outline somewhat, I never have a problem when I'm writing, going off the outline, exploring characters, all of that kind of stuff, but for some reason I just kind of need an outline, and, and, and so an unk never writes with an outlier, he might have just sort of a broad brush stroke, but he's been doing this for years, and, and I don't know if you just to clarify, unknown screenwriter is a ghost writer, he writes for hire with no credit with NDAs, he's written, he's written with some incredible people and rewritten some incredibly talented top writers. I mean, he's he's been at this for a very long time, so he is challenging me to try to embrace with this new project that we're working on his style, which, and I'm, I love challenging myself, I love trying different, different processes and seeing what works best for me, and discovering new ways to do things and new ways to tap into that creative energy. So we are literally writing the first draft like it's like we're brainstorming, like I have when I send him this, when I write something, and I sent him the script to pick up where we left off. I never know what he's gonna do, like this last scene he sent it back to me, and he'd kill someone, and I'm like, okay. And we're like exploring characters, where.. and so I was like, okay, I'm struggling with this. I'm really struggling. I'm feeling like I don't know, like I'm standing blindfolded in the middle of a forest, you know, like, where am I supposed to go, you know, and, and he, and so he's just encouraging me to, he's like, you know, you might am reminding me of things like, and this is what's great when you have a writing partner who knows you well and knows and knows, you know, like, what might he could look at my fear objectively and not emotionally, and remind me, look, you're a martial artist when you're standing in the dojo and somebody starts fighting you. Do you do you sit there and think about it? You just react, you just, you know, block, punch, kick, whatever you have to do, you just muscle memory, and you just relax and do it. So, do the same thing when you're writing, like shut the door, like Stephen King says, and just write, and, and, and take that pressure off of yourself, and just think of it as like you're just brainstorming, but in script format, so that then by the end of the time of brainstorming, instead of having an outline, we have a script, and then we can play with that, and so I am, I'm trying that, and I think I'm going to like it, but it's a little, it's a little scary for somebody who's used to outlining, but there's tons of people who do it this way and don't outline, so I'm just trying a different, a different process this time,

Dave Bullis 30:02
So, so, Jeanne, when you outline, do you like what exactly do you.. how do you outline, and what I mean by that is, do you like go by like Sid Fields two points, you know what I mean. I forget the name of something my head, I can't believe..

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 30:25
No, I know, and there's all those different ways, like beat the beat sheet and the hero's journey, and there's so many different structure ways. I think I think once you, when you're starting out, it's really important to pay attention to that kind of stuff, and then at a certain point, a certain point, you sort of get to a point where you know story well enough that you don't have to look at that roadmap, kind of thing. One of the things what I started that I really loved was Michael Hague and Chris Vogler have a DVD called The Heroes Two Journeys, and I thought that was that was something that really helped me when I was beginning, because it talked about not just the structure in terms of plot points, but also the structure in terms of the character's arc and evolution, and and that I thought was a really great resource for a beginning writer, and even to remind yourself I would go back and watch it, you know, right before I would start any new script, just to kind of refresh my mind and memory of it, but then it just becomes intuitive. So, what I, what I had been doing.. Oh my god, like, was Slavery by Another Name, that that script has become Slavery by Nottingham in some respects, like six years, you know, into it, but we had a 31 page outline, and by the time that it got to that point, it was like slug lines. I would then do this really detailed outline, and then put it into the screenwriting software, and with complete with slug line and a paragraph for each what was supposed to happen in the intent and purpose of that scene, and that helped me, because I was never ever looking at a blank page, so I would go in and I would look at this, is what I'm going to do, and then I would just sit down and write that scene, and sometimes things would change, scenes would get deleted and added and change, you know, you don't, the trick to outlining is never to think of it as something that's set in stone. You have to, like, let it go, you know. But at least it gives you sort of a little map, and you can veer off of it, or, and whatnot. And that has.. that was always my comfort zone, knowing that I had this. Okay, this is.. I'm a planner, so it helped me to know I have a plan. This is the plan of the scene, and this is what's going to happen.

Dave Bullis 32:42
Yeah, you know, I've outlined too, and I'm sure other people have. And suddenly, you know, when you start writing, you either realize you've not written enough or you've written too much, and you're like, oh my god, what I thought was gonna be, you know, a two-page scene is now spanning 15 pages, and that's when you sort of, so when that happens, do you just sort of continue with the just doing it, and then then you edit later, and when you're finished a rough draft?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 33:09
Yeah, I just, I just let it go, just write however much I want to write. The first draft is Slavery by Know the Name was 175 pages, and and it's an epic story, but nothing's worth 175 so it's, I think it's now like 132 but it's, but it isn't, it, you know, it's a little lengthy, but it is an epic story, I wouldn't, if it was any other story other than this, I wouldn't have it be that long, but, but, yeah, you just let it go, and then, and you cannot mean that's what rewriting is all about, because you never know what's going to come out, like even, and even when people would give me notes, and I wouldn't like those notes, I wouldn't agree with them, I would still try them, because you know, there might be something in that note, there's something in it that's worthy of something, it might not be this, the exact note they gave me, that their solution might not be the solution that I ended up using, but by trying something, I could always find a solution that worked for me and the note giver, and that, and when I say solution that will work for the note giver, it only needs to work for the note giver if the note giver is your producer. If it's just somebody who's reading your script to give you notes, you don't have to worry about pleasing them. You just listen to what they're saying and see if it works for your story or not. But when I had producers, definitely pleasing them is important.

Dave Bullis 34:40
Yeah, I'm part of a writer's group, and we always, you know, give each other notes, you know, we hand in, you know, scripts each month, not completed scripts, but usually like 10 to 20 pages, and when you get notes, you see a lot of different ideas, you know, stuff like that. So that's a very good point. The point you just brought up was take the note for. The other readers, and see if you agree with it, and see how it would help your story, and also see, you know, the person saying it, and why they're saying it. Me, like, what are they trying to convey? Some people have, you know, certain things, like they just want to read horror scripts, or some people just want to read comedies, you know. And, you know, it's, I think, that that also obviously weighs into whatever they're trying to convey.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 35:21
Yeah,

Dave Bullis 35:22
Yeah. so Jean, do you want to take some questions, because you have a lot, but I'm not going to take, I'm not going to ask all of them, like I was just, just mentioning to you, as we started this, there was a lot that came in at like the midnight hour,

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 35:36
Whatever you want to ask, go ahead, sure,

Dave Bullis 35:38
So I'll ask probably the best five or so, so the first question actually had came in. This is by John, who's a producer on the screen, producer of the film The Walking Fool, and his question is, Does one script actually mean, does one page of the script equal one page on screen?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 35:57
Yeah, I mean, I think it, it, it typically, that's the rule, like when you're writing, you think of one minute is one page, but it depends on what's on the page and what the director decides to do with that, and you know, but that's the basic standard rule, it doesn't exactly like if you sat there with a stopwatch, you know, like it doesn't exactly make a minute, but that's just a way to gage.

Dave Bullis 36:25
Yeah, by the way, have you seen that yet? The commercial, because they're doing India, go, go for it, and he actually, the film was all about a guy who actually walked from New York all the way to California. Oh, cool. And I don't know if you, if you've heard of it yet.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 36:42
He had a walking stick, because I'm really into walking sticks lately.

Dave Bullis 36:45
He did. There's different pictures of him going through all the different states, and some states he actually had a walking stick.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 36:51
I want one that has like a little button that you push that a knife comes out, because I live with the country, so I'm walking on these back like dirt roads, and they're bare, and you know there's a lot of stuff out there, you know. There was a completely different side note, but no, I haven't seen it yet, and I would love to check it out.

Dave Bullis 37:11
There was a walking stick that I saw that actually unfolded, and there was a sword inside, so like it was that this steak, this stick was actually the sheath, so you would pull it out, and it was actually a double-bladed sword, so I guess if there was a bear, you could actually fend it off, at least you had something, and then you could just resheath it, and then it's a walking stick again.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 37:31
Oh my god, I totally want that. I totally want that. So badass.

Dave Bullis 37:38
Yeah, I saw, like, a couple years ago I was looking, my mom was asking for a walking stick, and I found it, and I was like, "Wow, no, I didn't get it, because I don't think she would probably be like, "Oh my god, I'm never using it, because she'll, she'll only use like certain stuff, and I know if I showed her there was a sword inside, she'd probably like, "Oh my god, I'll get arrested, but

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 38:01
S he'd probably send you the therapy,

Dave Bullis 38:06
So the second question is, How does an unknown screenwriter get representation?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 38:14
Oh my god, this is like this. This we could talk all day about. I think basically what there's, there's a lot of stuff that, that, like, I've moderated a lot of panels at conferences where we set panels of agents and managers, and everybody, everybody wants to know, like, this magic trick, you know, and actually wrote a post called The Magic Trick of Selling Your Screenplay, it's one of my balls and field posts, where you know, I talk about some of that, but basically, in terms of getting representation, specifically not selling it, from what I don't have representation, and but I have gotten my script read by like the top agencies and and great production companies and things like that by hustling like I learned, learn how to pitch, and one of the best ways to learn how to pitch is to go to pitch fast, and you're not, honestly, you're not going to sell your script at a pitch fest, but you're going to learn how to, how to pitch your script, how to get comfortable talking to executives, you're going to make connections, you're going to get part of, you're not just trying to sell your script, you're trying to sell yourself, and because if they say yes to the script, they're going to have to work with you. So it, it really is helpful to practice those pitching skills with people in those in that pitch fest environment, because you can do every, you know, the pitches are only for five minutes, so you just, you're in line, and you just go, go, go, go, go for, for hours all day, and you can easily get in, like, you know, 1518, pitches in a day, and those are 15 or 18 people who if you had to drive all around LA and try to get meetings with you, never would be able to, and yeah, I mean, there's no question, a lot of them are assistants, you know, but today's assistant is tomorrow's studio head, but people change companies so often in this industry that they may be at XYZ Company today, but over at ABC Company tomorrow, you know, and that may be the fit for your script, you know, like so, and they might just, and the trick is, is getting read, so that people know whether you're a good writer or not, and if you're a really good writer, your script is going to stand out, and so the other way to do it is by entering contests, like, like this tracking board launchpad. The whole purpose of this is not, it's to try to get these 25 top writers to launch their careers. The blacklist is another great way to, it's not a contest, but it's a great way to get feedback on your script and get it listed, and so many executives do look at the blacklist to find material, you can tag your, your stuff. I just, I just entered Slavery by another name into it. I'm waiting for the feedback, so that it could be listed, because I'm curious to see how the process works. I know you know they've got, they've had people get representation from that as well. The best, you know, the big contest, like Austin, the Austin Film Festival, one is really good. Final Draft, Big Break, Script of Palooza, Blue Cat. When it's the big contest, executives will notice they will read those, and you may not even know they're reading your script. If it places as a finalist, people will just read them. They will.. it's not like they'll even contact you to say we're going to read your script. They just get them, and so. but don't I would say don't bother with the contests that are, that are smaller, that unless they're, it's like a contest that gives you, like, you know, money as a prize, that, and you need the money, but if you're, if it's a smaller contest, they're not going to really notice the representations, the reps aren't really going to notice those, you know, so unless they offer feedback or something else that you find a personal value, they probably aren't going to help you career wise, but you know, just and write a lot, like write the other, you know, the other thing is you've got to write something that's marketable, something they can sell, there's no point in them repping you, like, and that's this is why this is probably why I don't have an agent yet, because the thing that I'm most known for is Slavery by Another Name, which is a very, very difficult thing to sell, and everyone who reads it says, "Oh my god, this has to get made, this is such an important story, and it's about slavery post civil war, everything that's going on right now with Ferguson and all of this relations between the law enforcement and the African American community, Slavery by Eve Nain is all about prison laboring, and how the South, after the Civil War, how the South created these laws to reinstate, to re-enslave blacks by arresting them for these false crimes, and then leasing them as prison laborers, and that's why slavery by another name in this is, and before those laws were created, blacks and whites were there, 50/50 blacks and whites in in prisons, and then after these laws, a disproportionate number of African Americans were imprisoned, and that leaves a stigma in society where people start thinking, oh my god, there are dangerous people, and they aren't. It's, you know, it's the laws that were created, and you know, years and years of that happening, you know, changes society's perception of a culture, and, and so it's extremely timely right now. So I'm hoping that that helps us, but it's still a very difficult sell, because it's a period piece, it, you know, it's not going to be a cheap film to make, so you need to get representation, they need to know they can sell something and make money off of you, so I'm writing other things right now with Ankh and myself that are much more marketable that are easier to sell, so that then hopefully I can get those sold, and then someone will get slavery, so you know, don't pick, don't do what I did and pick that monumental herculean project, you know, and and have that be your, your, your thing that's on the forefront, you know, think, think smaller and marketable, and something that they can sell, because that's, you know, that's how they put food on their table, is to sell your stuff.

Dave Bullis 44:47
So that ties in with the my next question, you know, speaking of a sellable screenplay, is how to tell, or how do you tell if you have a good concept or not. Oftentimes I'll do. Up a concept and begin writing, only to hit a dead end,

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 45:07
That is the million dollar question. I mean, if it, you know, I mean, really, I think it's, it's one of the things that I did. I, you know, we're working on this project now, it's a horror project, and, and over Thanksgiving, I pitched it to my nieces and nephews, who were all like in that target audience range, 18 to 25 you know, and they were all like, oh my god, oh my god, I would totally see that, oh my god, you know, like, so you want that kind of reaction from your target audience, but also think about, think about budget, think about because those are also things that matter, you know. 18 to 25 year old males are, are like, I think the biggest audience for films, and they'll go see them multiple times. So, if you can tap into that, you know, but you also have to find not just the marketable idea, but that idea that you can be passionate about writing, because if you aren't, if you're just writing a horror piece, you know, whore, that horror, but like a total, like horror piece for money, for whatever, just to see if you can break in that way, but you aren't passionate about it, it's it's going to show on the page, so the trick is finding something that you have you can tap into and and and really enjoy writing that somebody can sell and there will be an audience for it that has not a monumental budget because that matters too, you know, so it's, it's tricky. I mean, there's a high concept, you know, is, is it is really tough. I, I was talking to a professional writer, Joe Zoom, one day. He was a guest on Script Shot. He's, I think, one of his scripts is on track and boards hit list, and he was telling me that with his manager, he will literally go over 100 ideas, 100 or more ideas, and his aunt, his manager will say, "This is the one you're going to write, so if you can get representation, they can certainly help you decide which one they think they can sell, but I would say look at things like the hit list, look at the blacklist, look at, look at the top 25 on the tracking board launch pad, look at log lines of things that are selling, and and sort of research and figure, and it's not about following the trends, it's, it's about figuring out what made that, why was that log line so good, you know, like it, it takes a while to hone that skill of figuring out what is the project, and honestly, I think you're better off spending a lot of time figuring out what to write than just writing any idea that you have, because you know if you, you write it and you can't sell it, you still learn stuff from writing things, even if you don't sell it. So, it still helps hone your writing skills, but if you're really trying to get representation and, and sell something, spend a lot of time figuring out what it is you're going to write that would attract somebody, would attract the audience, isn't going to cost a fortune to make, especially if you're just breaking in, you know, because if it's not going to cost a lot to make, you can also do it as an indie film too,

Dave Bullis 48:35
Exactly right, and you know we were talking about that with past guests as well, was, you know, if you had a, if you sort of reverse engineer it by taking a list of what you have, which is sometimes called the Rodriguez list, so hey, I have access to, like, this farmhouse and stuff like that, and suddenly you're building, basing a film there, you know, settings entirely inside this farmhouse, and you know that way, if it does get noticed, that way you can just try to crowdfund it, or you know, pull every resource you have together to make the small film, and maybe just put up on YouTube, just try to get noticed.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 49:07
Yeah, I mean, and people do it all the time, they make these these films, and then they go, they submit them to film festivals, and they get noticed, and they win awards, and then they go on to do something bigger, you know. It happens all the time.

Dave Bullis 49:19
And speaking of million dollar questions, this is this ties in with what we're talking about, and this is this is another million dollar question, is getting discovered, which is I'm hoping to get discovered with my screenplay, but I don't know where to start. This person lists the blacklist, tracking board, script shadow, is there a specific website that they should put their material on for a better chance of getting noticed.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 49:46
The first thing I would say, before you put your script anywhere, make sure it is the best possible script that it can be, and so get feedback. You know, don't put it out too soon, the because there's like, you know, there's they keep track of stuff like that, you know, like whether, whether to consider the writer or not, not just the idea, but the writer, so you want to make sure that it's written well, because you don't want to have like a red mark next to your name. So one of the things that, like, the tracking board does, and the blacklist does, is you get, you get feedback, and I know a lot of people talk about not wanting to pay for coverage, don't want to pay for notes. I think I've always done it. I've always gotten some sort of coverage, and not coverage so much, but you know, notes and script notes, especially when I started off. Now I don't. Now I don't really pay for them anymore. I mean, I did on the blacklist and on the tracking board, but because I have great respect for them, but for the most part, I mean, I have I have friends who are great writers, and we trade scripts with each other, and we give each other notes, but for these opportunities to get noticed, I'm not opposed to paying, and I look at it as it's like you're paying for a tutor, you know, it's part, it's an investment in myself and in my education as a writer, and so I always learn something from notes that makes me a better writer. So, before you list it anywhere, make sure it is the best possible script that it can be, and then submit it, and I would definitely say all of those things that I mentioned in those contests that we talked about earlier are all great ways to get noticed.

Dave Bullis 51:52
So, you know, just to continue that question, what if somebody just put a screenplay up on their own website, like they actually created a website, you know, they got wix.com and they just built their own website, doing very simple stuff. What do you think of that idea? Just sort of to, just to get it out there.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 52:09
I wouldn't do it.

Dave Bullis 52:11
Okay,

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 52:15
I'm not even sure I can. I can articulate why, but I'm a big Spidey sense person. You know, my media spidey sense was no, no, no, don't do that, and I trust my gut. I think there's, there's, because you know, because you're going to change, I mean, you know, you're going to change it, you're going to rewrite it, you're going to evolve it, so if you put it up and it's not just fucking amazing, then you know, you kind of blow the opportunity to really have it be this, you know, the best it can be. I think you know, because what if somebody reads it today, but then tomorrow you do a rewrite that's just killer, but now they're not going to revisit it, because they already read it, you know, like it's. I don't know, it's just not something I would do. I think that you're better off just querying people, and or going to pitching events, or entering contests, and having people request it to read it. That's that's me, you know.

Dave Bullis 53:20
No, I just, you know, I just wanted to ask, since we're talking about it, and I heard there somebody once suggested that to me, and I was like, I don't know about that. So that's why I kind of,

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 53:31
And I think if your spidey sense immediately says I don't know about that, I think you have to just trust that and not go with it, you know, not do it, and sometimes you don't need like a absolute rational reason why to do or not do something, just trust your gut, you know.

Dave Bullis 53:48
Yeah, I know what you exactly mean. So, you know, Jeannie, I've - we've been talking about for about an hour, I've taken up a lot of your time, so you're a busy person, I know, so you probably like, I gotta get writing. Oh,

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 54:03
It's a nice break, actually.

Dave Bullis 54:05
So, is there anything that we, that we haven't discussed that you will like to bring up?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 54:14
Yeah, you know, I would like to say on a little bit about social media and social media etiquette, I think it's really, really important when you're participating in social media that you are mindful and respectful of people's time, and, and, and, and, and really, what you're there for, you know, like you're there to connect, you're there to be social, you're there to build a network and build a relationship, so it's important for people to not be selfish online and to be giving, and, and you know, like what you're doing with these podcasts, what I do with script chat, what you know. Lot of other people do with just simply, you know, and obviously these are big platforms that not everyone can wants to do and wants to dedicate that kind of time, but even I'm talking just as simple as you found a great article you want to share with other writers, tweet it out, you know, you know, if you meet, if you meet people online and you think this person might like, say, say you want to write a graphic novel, but you want to have, you need somebody who might, you know, you might need an artist, or you might need something else that, that they say, "Oh, I know somebody who could help Dave, you know, and then introduce those two people, you know, it's, it's, it's not about you all the time, you know, like it's it, it is about it's a community of people, and and the best way to get the most value out of that space is to be a giving person, and it does all it does truly come back to you, and then every once in a while you're going to need some help, and you can say to somebody, say, 'Hey, I, you know, I want.. I'm doing a crowdfunding campaign, or I'm doing this, or I'm doing that. I could use some help with this. People will be much more likely to come and help you if you've been helpful to other people. That's my two cents. And, and just don't suck, like, you know, like to be a good, decent human being.

Dave Bullis 56:23
You know, it's funny. I actually knew somebody who would take to Facebook every time they had a problem with somebody, and they would just like go into this person, and people all over were like, 'What the hell is wrong with that person? Like, why would you do that?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 56:40
The delete tweet feature is a very good thing.

Dave Bullis 56:47
That's why I always try to make jokes, or you know, or networking. That's why I kind of social media. I, if, if you notice, I stay out of politics completely

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 56:56
Because I talk about them at all.

Dave Bullis 56:58
Yeah, there's just.. I don't think it's conducive to any, any sort of dialog or anything, that's why it's either self-deprecating jokes at myself or like, hey, it's a useful piece of information, and then you know, like, the third one's like, oh, hey, I got this podcast, I suck, but the guests don't, so it's

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 57:13
Yeah, and I find that whenever people do talk about politics, even if it's even if it's my same political viewpoint, they always, it always pisses people off, and people start on following them, and, and you know, it, and then it'd be, it's, it's, what is, what is the point of that? Like, first of all, why can't we all, isn't this what America is all about, that we all have different viewpoints of view, and why can't we celebrate that? Why do people have to get so pissy about it? I just don't want to engage in it, because I find it's just really, really - it ends up being biting and negative, and that's not what I'm there for. I don't really, honestly, I don't really give a shit, like you know, everybody can feel the way they want to feel, and they have a right to feel they want to the way they want to feel, but I don't have to feel the way everyone else feels, and everyone else doesn't have to feel the way I feel, just like any advice I've given today on screenwriting, there, you know, there's going to be somebody who disagrees with it, and I'm totally fine with that, because I only speak from my experience as a screenwriter, and, and so this has been my experience. Are there other ways to break in? Are there other ways to get a manager? Absolutely, you've got a friend who, who knows somebody, I mean, it's definitely like who you know. Don't be afraid to ask people you know. Do you know somebody who might like this script? You know, ask your friends. Like, there's so many different ways to go about it. There's as many ways to break into the industry as there are people. There's no one right way. And so I think in social media, people have to be open to different viewpoints and different philosophies and different angles of breaking in. Some people hate pitch fest. I love them, you know. They worked for me. They haven't worked for other people. It's everybody's going to have a different experience. So I would suggest to everyone that they just try to dip their toe in and try a whole bunch of different kinds of things and see what feels organic and works for you, and then go with that.

Dave Bullis 59:06
Yeah, that sounds amazing. And also, you put on the point is there is a ton of different ways to break in, and and you never really know who's watching on social media, too. Because I mean, you hear about that almost, I don't say all the time, but you hear about them more frequently, is someone was found on Twitter, or someone was found on their blog, like Diablo Cody was found because of her blog.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 59:28
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely,

Dave Bullis 59:31
Yeah. So, you know, never know, that's why you should always stay away.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 59:35
I think screen readers really should have websites and have had blog about something. I don't give a shit if you're blogging about your cat, you know, just blog about something, because it helps people know that you can tell a story, and, and even a story just in 500 words, or whatever it is, for the blog post that makes them more confident requesting your script, if they see that you can at least write and. Be articulate and, and tell an engaging story. Make them laugh, make them cry, make them feel something. Plus, practically it has all your contact information on it. Like, don't make it hard for people to find you on Twitter, you know, there's not there's not always people that if they don't have a website, there's nowhere for people to really know, like to get your email address, or to, you know, so make it easy for executives to discover you, and having a website is the best way to do it.

Dave Bullis 1:00:40
Yeah, that's good point. I've actually gotten a ton of contacts through my contact form on my website, and yeah, so it's, you know, and also it's good because I can filter through all some of this stuff. Some of the stuff's usually like, hey Dave, I don't know who you are, and you don't know me, but here's my crowdfunding campaign, give me money.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:00:59
Oh my God. Yes, you should see some of the things I get in my email inbox, but we won't go there, because that's a whole other.. we should do like a genie's mailbag.

Dave Bullis 1:01:14
I, anytime you want to come back, Jeannie, please let me know, and we will do that. We will go through all the different emails you get, because actually that not only is fascinating, but I think would be educational as well.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:01:25
Yeah, oh yeah, and and you might need to be drinking for that one.

Dave Bullis 1:01:30
Why not? I mean, I was, I'm drinking coffee right now, but I'll switch to like Wild Turkey 101 or something.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:01:38
Perfect, my favorite.

Dave Bullis 1:01:42
Do you like wild turkey?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:01:44
Yeah, I do love it. And you know what's really great, if you soak Rolo's in it. Oh my god, just

Dave Bullis 1:01:50
Really?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:01:50
Yes, poke little holes in the bottom of the rollers and stick them in a, in a, in a shallow bowl and put wild turkey in there. It's great.

Dave Bullis 1:02:00
I've never, I've never heard of that before, but I'm gonna try it now.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:02:03
Happy holidays,

Dave Bullis 1:02:05
That's all I get through Wild Turkey 101 I got addicted to the American Honey Wild Turkey, because it's just so smooth.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:02:13
Oh yeah,

Dave Bullis 1:02:14
I had a Thanksgiving party with some friends, and I, they normally, they're like, oh, we don't drink whiskey, and I put them a little bit of the American honey wild turkey, and they're like, "Oh my god, this is amazing. This tastes so good. I was like, "Yeah, it's smooth, and you know it's like my go-to drink.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:02:30
Yeah, it's great. We need that.

Dave Bullis 1:02:34
We get too many emails about crowdfunding campaigns. I actually just became a moderator of a board of all called the Launch Board, and it's all about, you know, tips and tricks about crowdfunding, and this and that, and one of the rules that the person who, who made it said was, "Do not post your crowdfunding campaign. He goes, "Asking for advice and trying to promote it are two different things, and he's like, "You know, because he and I were talking, he said he had to leave a bunch of private groups on Facebook because of that. It was just so many crowdfunding campaigns, one after the other, and you're like, this isn't even a group anymore, it's just, you know, like a.. it's a.. I'm getting marketed to, and just.. it's like spam, you know. So

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:03:14
It is, and it's.. and I, you know, I did it once for our short film, Impasse, and we raised over $15,000 and I'm so, so appreciative to everybody who helped us with that, but I wouldn't, I really, if I never have to do another crowdfunding campaign again in my life, I'll be thrilled. It's, it's, it's exhausting, it's hard work, it's, you know, it's, and it's, and I don't know, I just, I hope I never have to do one again.

Dave Bullis 1:03:41
I'm sorry, even people you know I know who had the quote unquote rich relatives, even they struggled. I'm not saying, you know, if anyone's listening, I'm not saying not to do it, because you, as you know, I've had a ton of guests on the recent background.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:03:58
Incredible, it's an incredible resource, and there's some incredible platforms to do crowdfunding. Now, you know, Seed and Spark, I mean, there's so many great, great platforms for people to help independent filmmakers get the money to make their dreams come true. I mean, I think crowdfunding is great. I have no problem with it. I'm just saying, as somebody, to do it, it's, it's a, it's a lot of work, you know.

Dave Bullis 1:04:20
Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:04:20
You earn every pay a lot of work.

Dave Bullis 1:04:24
Yeah, oh, absolutely, it definitely is a lot of work. That's what I always caution people on before they start one. I always say, you know, this is going to be a lot of work. This isn't going to be like, oh, I'm going to send one tweet out and suddenly I'm going to be, you know, rolling in six figures.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:04:37
But you see, it all comes down to the don't suck, because if you stop on social media, no one is going to want to help you in your crowdfunding campaign. I mean, you know, it's.. and you can't think about that after the fact. Just to think about that from day one, when you start tweeting or start connecting with people online, it.. you have to always be mindful of that, like I say to my kids, you know, don't. I don't, you know, put anything out there that you wouldn't want to see on the front page of the newspaper. I just happen to be very comfortable with seeing anything on the front page, like I'm not very guarded, you know, online, but I think some people should be a little more guarded than they are.

Dave Bullis 1:05:18
Yeah, I think we all have friends like that, where it's like maybe you should take that tweet down, maybe it's not a, you know, you're trying to get investors for your film, and he's, and he was, you know, tweeting about random stuff that could be taken very out of context, but, but, Jeannie, this has been awesome having you on work, oh, thank you, you know, again, like, if you want to come back on, please let me know, because I would love to do the Jenny's mailbag, or Jean's mailbag, and you know, go through all the crazy emails,

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:05:50
A file for that, like the crazy,

Dave Bullis 1:05:55
So Jeanne, where can people find you at?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:05:58
If you go to JeanneVB V, as in Victor B, as in boy .com There's a contact page there that has all the different ways you can stalk me at all different social media outlets, and my email address as well. And careful, careful, if you email me, you might end up on the show.

Dave Bullis 1:06:17
Yeah, don't suck and write something crazy, and I'm going to link to that in the show notes, and as well, I'm going to put a link to everyone to find her script mag articles, because as we've talked about, Jeannie writes The Balls of Steel, and she has a wonderful, wonderful articles in there that can help you out. Thank you, everyone, for listening. Jeannie, thanks again for coming on, and if you're anything, always give me a holler.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:06:43
Thanks. Thanks for having me, Dave.

Dave Bullis 1:06:45
Oh, my pleasure. All right, have a good day.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:06:48
You too.

Dave Bullis 1:06:49
Take care.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:06:49
Bye,

Dave Bullis 1:06:50
Bye.