IFH 405: How to Survive in the Modern Indie Film Landscape with Bob and Margie Rose



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Today on the show we have filmmakers Bob and Margie Rose. They are the creators of the new film InstaBAND. InstaBAND is a film about today’s music artist and their hustle to try and achieve music stardom in a streaming world that no longer buys music. Featuring bands from across the country, InstaBAND offers an inside look into today’s music industry.

I wanted to have Bob and Margie on the show to discuss the lesson indie filmmakers can learn from indie musicians. I’ve been saying for years now that if you want to see what is going to happen to the indie film marketplace just look at the music industry. From the devaluation of media to creators going on the road and sell ancillary products and services to make a living with their art.

If you that the time to look you can learn these lessons and apply them to indie film. Enjoy my conversation with Bob and Margie Rose

Alex Ferrari 0:16
Well, guys, today on the show, we have filmmakers and filmtrepreneurs, Bob and Margie Rose. Now they are the filmmakers behind the new film in the band. Now it's the band is a film about musicians and how the changing marketplace of the music industry has forced them to change along with the times. And I wanted them on the show because I've been saying this for years now. If indie filmmakers want to see what is going to happen, or is currently happening to the indie film marketplace, all they have to do is look at the music industry. And what musicians are now doing and have to do to make a living. as creators as artists, they are on the road. They are selling ancillary products and services, and exposure to them autograph sessions, other things like that. Things that are outside the music that they actually make, and in many ways, the music that they make are lost leaders, they have very little value in the marketplace, unfortunately. And you know, they're being paid nothing for streams. I don't know if that sounds familiar to anybody on Amazon Prime right now. But that's exactly what's happening. If we as filmmakers do not change our mindsets, and change the way we look at making movies as a career as a way to generate revenue, to keep us alive to sustain us to support our family and ourselves, then you won't make it we won't make it as a community we will not make it as creators. And this episode, Bob and Margie really help us understand the struggles of what musicians are going through right now and give us a ton of ideas on how we can take some of those lessons and apply them to the indie film marketplace. So Without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Bob and Margie Rose. I like to welcome to the show Bob and Margie rose. How you guys doing?

Bob Rose 5:09

Margie Rose 5:09

Alex Ferrari 5:10
Thank you so much for being on the show, guys. You reached out to me about your really amazing film Insta band, which really touches on a topic that I think is so important to today's world that we live in this COVID-19 world. But it also was important prior to COVID-19 to filmmakers, specifically, but your movies about musicians, but we're going to get into the band in a second. First of all, how did you get into the film business in the first place?

Bob Rose 5:38
Well, I'm your classic grew up getting a camcorder around 6/7 grade, I did my first video and the sixth grade and just make videos for school through through high school, then go to college and try to make money to be an accountant. And that was 100% the wrong idea. And I got a camcorder I almost flunked out of out of college from just trying to take like physical therapy and accounting just because that's what makes money. And I got a camcorder on my college break. And that was the turn right there. And so from that point on, I think that was like 9095 ish, and started taking film courses and straight A's the rest of college and that was it, man.

Alex Ferrari 6:26
Isn't it funny, I did the same thing. I was like horrible and like real, real college. But then I went to full sail and I was like valedictorian like it just all of a sudden, everything just like just I just started getting straight A's all the time, because I enjoyed what I was doing. And how about you Marg, Margie?

Margie Rose 6:41
I got into film, because of Bob. We got together and there was a point in time, I'm a massage therapist in my other life. And I was really slow. He was super busy. He was like, hey, if I can just teach you to do some things to help me out, then we can keep the money in house if not have to hire someone. Or like, I'm a quick learner. Let's do it.Let's go.

Bob Rose 7:06
Yeah, and for the first film I did almost killed me because I did almost 95% completely alone. And so she's excellent . And she is she was helping out is huge. And the way we got our little edit deaths across from each other. And and

Alex Ferrari 7:23
That's, that's, that is amazing. It's great when you can work with your spouse, I've worked with my spouse, not in filmmaking, but in other aspects of our lives together. And it is nice when you can when you can work together. Now tell me a little bit about your film Insta band, what is it about?

Bob Rose 7:39
Okay, so Insta ban is is about today's music industry, and come up from the perspective of today's music artists, and especially the independent artists. So obviously, when when Spotify came into the picture CDs went away. How are artists making their money. And so that's really where it started from is this is a brand new, this is a brand new world we live in. I truly believe that this is the biggest turn in the music industry since the beginning of the music industry. So the big question mark is in this world where nobody's buying music, how artists making their money, and the difference are the people who hustle. So it's really about the hustle of the music artists, and how they can supplement and make a living doing what they're doing when people aren't going out and buying a $20 cd anymore.

Alex Ferrari 8:36
So I want everyone listening as we move forward through this interview. anytime they say music position, just insert the word filmmaker. And it's pretty much the exact same issues that we're dealing with now. So please keep that in mind because I'm sure people like why are we talking about musicians and like everything we're talking about is is completely applicable to filmmakers, would you agree?

Bob Rose 8:55
100% and and honestly, that's that's the that's where the movie came from. I mean, from from your podcast and listening to everything that you say, and your books and on your podcast. I had a certain level of knowledge. And so when it came out for my first documentary is like what am I supposed to do? I figured what can I do about this branding and all this, this? making money off of, you know, other revenue streams and stuff? I knew that there was something there. I knew that that was what was happening in our industry. And then but then when you look at it from a music standpoint, I think it's an even broader, like everybody gets, you know, everybody kind of connects with that more because we all have a Spotify account. It's super convenient, and we love that. But most of the time you're not looking at the other end, you know?

Alex Ferrari 9:48
Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is that with musicians, I mean, the market is absolutely diluted with everybody in their mother who thinks that there are a musician and it gives out Access to people who might have not had access before. And it also gives access to people who should never ever, ever have access. saturation. Right. And that's and to us to a lesser degree, because it's a lot more affordable to make music. I mean, music is basically a laptop, a mic. And you can you can make a song you can do, you know, you could set up a nice home system fairly inexpensively and produce music fairly cheaply, comparatively to making a film where it would it used to cost, you know, a million dollars to produce a studio album, back in the day, half a million dollars a studio just because of the studio time. And now you could do that at home, where before it used to cost $20 million to make a movie now you can make one for five or 10,000 with your iPhone, essentially. So it's a lot but there's still a little bit larger barrier of entry with with film than it is with music. But all the concepts we're about to talk about. It will apply without question. Now. How has Can you explain to the audience how the music industry has changed from the days of even the 90s to today and how it's affecting musicians?

Bob Rose 11:09
100%. So, I mean, in the 90s, and even to the early 2000s, I guess we will just refer to everything as pre or post Napster. Right? So pre Napster, the music industry was at its highest peak it's ever had. Right? This was the TRL days, these are the rubber TRL Oh, boy bands, Britney Spears, I mean, they were just money was flying everywhere. This is the $10 million music videos that they shoot for a week one of those. So and and so money was flying everywhere during that. But obviously once Napster hit and kind of took that away, and you know, at the same token, there was so many more gatekeepers, right. There's so many more than music. This was the time of the of the fat white music executive, you know, sitting there collecting all the cash. And honestly, a lot of musicians were getting pretty screwed. Even though there was more money around, a lot of the musicians were getting screwed. So it was one of those things that once Napster came into play, and you know, there was that kind of weird period of time, you know, where everybody was kind of scrambling to figure out what to do. And then obviously, once once we got the iTunes 99 cent download, I think that was the beginning of the steps that led us to music streaming, and kind of where we're at today.

Alex Ferrari 12:43
So then, with filmmakers, that moment would be when Netflix basically showed up.

Bob Rose 12:49
100%. But I do feel that Netflix is paying a little bit better than than Spotify. Like,

Alex Ferrari 12:57
It's different. Yeah, it's a different it's a different well, amazon prime is paying with Spotify.

Bob Rose 13:02
I had to say too, you know, the music stream pays the average artist point 008 cents per string.

Alex Ferrari 13:12
And that's, that's Beyonce. And that's a dude, that that nobody has one follower.

Bob Rose 13:16
Right? Well, yeah. And so you getting millions of streams, and you're getting a nice little $100 check or something, you know,

Alex Ferrari 13:24
How does? How does it work with publishing? Because there's cost of readings that include publishing for the writers, because I heard I heard somewhere, I don't know if it's true or not. But I heard forelle off of happy was streamed like three or 4 billion times or something like that. And he got like a check for 13 $100 for publishing, not for the streaming, but the actual publishing of the music. I don't know if that's true. Do you know anything about that?

Bob Rose 13:47
Yeah, I think that's a case by case basis. And it's like having a good agent, like, you know, and honestly, with the whole Taylor Swift thing, that changed stuff quite a bit.

Alex Ferrari 13:58
But what is the Taylor Swift thing to explain that?

Bob Rose 14:00
Well, you know, I guess it was maybe it was right around, we started filming and still poignant. A few years ago, she yanked all her music off Spotify, because of kind of not getting what she felt she was due. And that's the big stink about it. There was a big, that was what everybody was talking about for quite a bit. And it did change some things. But I think it changed more things for your bigger artists, and it does your your your independent artist. But along with that, I'd say bigger that led to the Mute the music Modernization Act. So the law they had in place for people to get money off of your residuals hadn't was pre streaming. I mean, these are laws that were made in the 50s and 60s. Oh, yeah. So nobody really knew what to do or how to deal with the streaming numbers. So the music modernization that came in, and that's just the beginning stages of where I think we're starting to build to where artists are going to get more money for strings and kind of Have a little bit more control over what's happening, you know, but again, you still kind of you're you still need to have other avenues and especially from the independent artists, because Instagram really centers in on your mid tier band as soon as an independent artists, not your your Taylor Swift's right? You know because or you know, because these are the people that are most affected by it.

Alex Ferrari 15:26
So, so Margie How is how are musicians generating revenue now like because obviously the music is not you're not made they're not making much money with the music itself anymore because of the technology and how things have changed where I've always said this example like it before it used to cost $18 for a song you would pay to buy a whole album to get one song or you would sit on the radio and wait for them to play it and then hit the record button on the on the tape to make your own mixtapes back in the day. And then you would hate when the DJ would speak over the song like Shut up, just want to clean but, but now it's essentially free even at even 999 a month. It's essentially free for the consumer. So how are musicians generating revenue?

Margie Rose 16:10
You know, they're having a great rap and generate revenue by merchandise or actually going out and performing at live concerts doing shows that they are trying to make their money nowadays because they don't have CDs. Also vinyls. Currently vinyl. Still really huge, though. Quite a few artists are still making the vinyls.

Alex Ferrari 16:33
So vinyl. So for my hearing vinyl has actually made a comeback and has now overtaken CDs for the first time since 1984. Something like that.

Margie Rose 16:42
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Bob Rose 16:44
Record Store Day is a perfect example of that, you know, a huge event. It's huge, is huge. You know, and you know, another thing that a lot of artists when you start to get into the let's get creative thing is is is endorsements working in with sponsorships and yes, sync licensing. That's a huge one that we talk about

Alex Ferrari 17:05
So explain sync licensing. That's actually when they actually they licensed their their music for movies or tv or things like that. commercials.

Margie Rose 17:12
Yeah, fell, right. Yeah, exactly.

Bob Rose 17:15
There's one artist in the movie Santa Ynez. He, he is interesting, because once we interviewed him started learning his story. He actually makes almost all his money from seek licensing. And he's, he's, he's honestly one of the more successful ones Yeah, of our bunch. And he doesn't go on tour. He gets it all from getting his placement in shows. And, and commercials. He was in the spider man homecoming come, you know, commercial for international. And honestly, that, yeah, that apply to us. Because I was like, okay, it's funny, because we learned more about sync licensing for our films for their eyes than we even knew, you know, on our own.

Alex Ferrari 17:57
That's that. So it's, it's fascinating. So again, to bring it back, the filmmakers, they're just looking at different ways to generate revenue, which is essentially the film shoprunner method is to generate multiple revenue streams from multiple different avenues that are outside your traditional, traditional way of making money, which before was the access to music, and the exhibition of the music was the way you generate a revenue and a T shirt was like a side hustle. Where now, the T shirts, the main hustle while the music is kind of like yeah, it's just marketing, essentially. So is his music becoming a loss leader? like is that what basically music is right now? Which is what I've been praying, preaching for filmmakers? Like, if you do it, right, give your movie away. And you can build a business around everything else that you build around the movie. Is that happening in music?

Bob Rose 18:45
Yeah, 100% one artists Well, the way she put it in the film is she said, I consider my music like, like my business card, like, here's, here's my music Follow me, here's my music book me, you know, it's, it's your it's your end to and another thing is kind of going into that one of the other artists talks about how his music is his intro to his world. Like they have to create a huge ecosystem, an ecosystem, right? That you can kind of lock into their brand, basically. Right. And the music is the is the end to get there.

Alex Ferrari 19:23
Yeah, and the smart bands are doing that they're creating merge, they're creating events, they're creating access to them, they're doing things that are just outside the norm of before and I think access is a really big thing with musicians, isn't it now like autographs and picture ops and, and live you know, talks and things like that on on like, twitch and other other other avenues like that is to get access to them? I think that's because before to get access to any of your, you know, imagine like in the 80s getting access to Madonna or Michael Jackson or Bruce Springsteen But that's not a thing. Yeah, but now, even Taylor Swift and Beyonce and Jay Z and all those guys, access is a large way they generate revenue as well. Is that fair?

Bob Rose 20:12
Yeah, yeah, I think so. It's required, honestly. I mean, it's, and we it that's talked about quite a bit in the film is, is, is, that's what people expect, you know, from from their big artists and from everybody. So for a music artists to come out and not kind of let people in a little bit. They're just kind of closing doors to to, to fans, that and followers, which leads leads to income, you know, you know, when we started this, and I didn't intend to do this, but a huge portion, or huge asset of this movie is screen records from Insta stories. So I started recording all these artists that are in our movie, I started recording their Insta stories daily. And it actually became a huge storytelling part of the documentary, because that's how they are letting people in. And as a filmmaker, I was like, Well, I'm not in Nashville all the time. But I got this, I got this. And it actually kind of helped push the narrative of the story.

Alex Ferrari 21:12
Yeah. And it was because it was so. So So social media, obviously is, is such a big part of our world right now. It is essentially the lifeblood of the musician in today's world, correct? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And they actually, but the thing is, I want filmmakers listening to understand this is that they make it their job is like social media is their job. Where filmmakers don't they don't get that yet. Some do. And the ones who do are very successful. But they look they look at it as a job and as a lead generator as audience building. And because I guess musicians just come from an audience standpoint, because they literally are playing in front of an audience. So they kind of understand that concept more, or filmmakers just like, put it up on a screen somewhere. And it's a dark room and you really see the group of people who are following you. But is that is that also a fair statement? That is it's a job and don't make as you actually look at it as such.

Margie Rose 22:14
Absolutely, like a lot of our artists, were talking about how they are the ones who respond to all their fans on social media, because they don't want anybody else to respond to you, too. What are you saying? What are you saying to my people? Like, that's not what I would have said to someone. So for them, their phones, the social media is a huge part of their job.

Bob Rose 22:37
Yeah, one of the band members said that his cell phone is almost as important like instrument of their band as a guitar. Right? Wow. Yeah. And I every person I asked has asked every single one of them this question, How much time do you spend on social media on your cell phone today? Because social media, cell phones, these are all parts of the movie like sections, and a very important cell phone, social media are the two most important aspects, I think of the whole besides playing the music in the whole movie. And they tend to say like most of them spend around two hours a day on their social media, you know, responding. So you know, Insta stories? I mean, one post on Instagram, that's the smallest portion of what they do live in in the DMS answer and every single person who, who says something to them, or says, Oh, I love your music. When is this coming out? They respond to every single one of those. And you know, I think that's the aspect like we talked about, you know, like, if you're on YouTube, you answer every comment. I mean, especially when you're painting, etc. When you're trying to come up, that's what you have to do. That's what you should do. These are the people who want to listen to your music, you need to take the time for them. And then they, they're the ones that are going to be they're bringing their friends. And because these once you get them in there, they're loyal, you know, they fall I've seen these, I see people follow these guys around everywhere in these mid tier bands. You know, there'll be a few people in the movie like, Oh, yeah, I've heard of that one, I think, but these aren't, they're not amphitheatre people yet.

Alex Ferrari 24:11
You know, clubs, their bars.

Bob Rose 24:14
Yes. Right. Yeah. Right. And, and but but I think what for me, that's what's interesting is, is that they are the ones that are going to benefit the most by what they do. And not if they don't, but the main thing I resonated with was the hustle. You know, like, and that's a big factor. You know, the original title was going to be the new hustle. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 24:36
That's what I always felt. It's the band's better it's the band better. So then, what you know, in the movie, I'm sure you saw some amazing DIY distribution techniques. What are some, some really interesting ones that kind of stuck out to you of how they get their music out there. I like the hustle. What is some hustles? That you say? Like, wow, that's, that's awesome. Like, how are they doing that, like, you know, something that just caught your eye?

Bob Rose 25:07
Well, I think I think the way that they push to something coming out is, was nice. And honestly, I've used that quite a bit for my own stuff like, you know, not just the countdown, but like really unveiling and making you feel like you're with them and you're my buddy. And we're, we're, we're gonna come out with this music together, along with really branded posting that they do. Um, aside from that, I mean, just the way that they instantly capitalize on everything that happens with their song like a syncs, licensing, instantly, there's two or three posts from that show. And then and then reposting every single person that sees their song or sees their thing on the Insta stories. It really was how they're handling their social media. Because I learned just I honestly learned more from these music arts and how they handle social media than I did from other people kind of on how to promote my films, you know, it totally changed the game for me on how I handled the social media cuz I do a social media account for each film I do, because each one has their own audience. And so I learned the most from that was most very impressed.

Alex Ferrari 26:18
So what are some of those tips? What are some of those tips that you learned from them as far as social media is concerned?

Bob Rose 26:24
I think the biggest thing is is is, is document don't create write that don't, don't sweat that everything needs to be perfect. People don't want to see that. Anyway, I think what things are too polished, and everything's a branded polished piece of content, especially for music artists. There's a veil there, right? So they're suspicious? Well, there's like, I've got this between you and I, right. Right, this commercial that you This is me, but is it really me, and some of these artists like this one girl, Charlotte sands up and coming artists. And and I see, I see, I saw so much growth from her in the period of time that we did this. And she's super sweet, super cute. But she just pushes out away and she's goofy and herself. And and that I know that that part of her letting people know who she is, and that she's not perfect is going to be what kind of lends her to her success. Aside from the basketball,

Alex Ferrari 27:29
Go ahead Marge.

Margie Rose 27:30
It's the authenticity which all of the artists talk about. Yeah, Authenticity, just be yourself. And even with us when we're, you know, we're joining different groups more. So now is our next film because we didn't know as much before. But just our engagement is is huge. And people are so interested, because we're just showing what we're doing. You know, we're making this film. Okay, here we go.

Alex Ferrari 27:55
So, yes, I think one of the bigger stars in the world Taylor Swift, I think that's one of the reasons why she has such successes she has because she is so authentic to who she is. And she really works hard at social media and access to her audience and building that audience up. Now I wanted to share with you I saw I was in Hollywood Boulevard at a film festival. And it was on the second floor, and they had a big window out to the to the you know, right in front of the Chinese Theater. And I'm sure you know, New York, they do this as well, in Times Square, where there's guys out there hustling their CDs, you know, hustling their house in their cities. And I just sat and I had a couple of friends of mine. Like, let's watch how these guys do this. It was a master class. It was a master class of hustle. Because these guys would have their CDs and they would target these tourists. And then the way they the way they motioned and they handed the CD to them. It was in such a way that the tourists felt that they had to give them money. It was a social, it was just so wonderful to watch. And then they would like get the money. The second the money was in their hand their back was turned and they were on to the next one. It was a it was fascinating to watch. But that's the hustle like and if you're just sitting around waiting for someone to knock on your door.

Bob Rose 29:13
Yeah, and it's funny you say that because I was filming an interview with one artists in Times Square. And I was just out there by myself for another gig, you know, film as I'm traveling for other jobs. And I was just walking back by myself in Times Square. And I saw those guys in Times Square and I was like, Okay, I'm good. I gotta get if so we have that I'm Mike the guy and let him fight it was, you know, it was interesting.

Alex Ferrari 29:36
It's a masterclass. They're hot. They're like the hustle to sell a CD of music that no one's really listened to unless they hand you the earphones, which they used to do as well. Like they have a CD player or what you might call it the iPod or something like that playing. It's a it's a puff sound like that's a really rough hustle. And they just, they just pound it. Like they just, it's a real masterclass at how to hustle. I mean, your hustle in the streets.

Bob Rose 30:06
Yeah. And so that's what I always used to say, especially in the beginning of filming, I would say the old hustle is selling CDs out the trunk of your car. The new hustle is Spotify and SoundCloud, you know, and you see a lot of those same guys, I mean, going on SoundCloud. Or, you know, obviously, I've joined a lot of groups because of the movie. And and the way these guys are hustling their beats online, it's the same. It's the same hustle. It's just online now. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 30:34
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. And they sell and they sell beats to other musicians as well. So like, they'll create a you know, they'll, they'll sell their own music, but like as a Oh, here, I'll let you I'll let you use it for this much or something like that.

Bob Rose 30:55
We put a few of those in our film. Yeah. We did. Well, we had one guy who like I recorded so we one of the artists I started recording with became like a viral kind of sensation through the process of filming. Right? He actually, yeah, he was in essence, right. Wembley is his name. He was the essence. rapping on the street. He freestyles in the street, right? buskin is what they call it. And and common walks out. And he Yeah, he performs a comment. And it was amazing. His his social media account went from 300 followers to 30,000 overnight. And he ended up on The Tonight Show and all this crazy stuff, right? So I'm like, Okay, well, this is like a great story. This is exactly what we're talking about here. Because the one post one thing can really change the game, right? So we had other freestyle and stuff where he was on the street. And I was like, Okay, I can use that. But what does that be? Am I gonna get like, nailed on on that beat, traced the beat down to some guy who, who sold beats and bought the beat from him and ended up buying three more.

Alex Ferrari 32:04
That's amazing. No. So the labels, what kind of what's their role now? Because before the label was the only thing, kind of like, the studio's were really the only thing other than some, some outskirt independent filmmakers. But what is their role now? And how has it changed for them, because I know they were hurting. I mean, remember, when that Napster came up, I mean, they almost went under. And, and by the way, piracy really hasn't stopped. So like, I think it was, um, it was jobs who said, You can't fight piracy, you can only compete with it. And that's what Spotify and because now it's, as opposed to me going online, going on a torrent board, downloading the music, uploading it into your C or iPhone or whatever. It's a long process. We're now just like, it's 10 bucks, or 10 bucks, I have all music, essentially. So they've been able, they've now been able to monetize it, but I hear the labels are making money through streaming, because they have these massive libraries. But the artists are not, but what is the what is the role of the label now?

Bob Rose 33:12
Well, they don't have. Okay, so if there's different tiers, right, first off, you have you had so many different music labels. And so what we're talking about is a lot of those, either smaller ones either died, or they got accumulated either, or you just kind of have like the top the big three, or the Big Four, or whatever it is, but it's under five. And everybody kind of falls under that, right. But regardless, unless you are a Taylor Swift, or you are Drake, or somebody that nature, they're expecting you to come to the table a little bit more put together, there, they are all kind and this is very similar to what happens in film distribution. And is, is that Yeah, you've got this film deal, but hey, we're still looking for you to to pick up your stuff, right? We're still looking for you to kind of come together, come to us with something that's polished, and put together, you know, so they're, they're still there, they're still doing things, but I feel like their role has become a little bit more minor is shifted. That's, you know, I think it's a good thing and a bad thing. You know, it's at the end of the day, it has put more money in the artists pocket. And but it's put more control with the artist, but then they have a lot more work to do to write that you can just do the music like he used to do. And they're constantly adapting. They're constantly shifting these people, Sony Music, I mean, they've got some deal with Spotify, where they're dealing with Beatles catalogs and people, you know, Michael Jackson, you know, like stuff that isn't even they're not even making any new music. You know, so I feel like, like they do with films a lot of times is they're coming with a lot of music library. Yeah, a library of music. And so they're making their money off of that, you know,

Margie Rose 34:58
Well, one of our artists Recently, he was with a label before then stopped because it wasn't lucrative for him. And recently, he went back to label, but he had more of the power. So he was able to say, this is what I want. And it was pretty much for radio presence, because how do our independent artists get on the radio? And for him connecting with this label, but under his terms, he's on the radio now.

Alex Ferrari 35:27
Yeah, I think. And that also, probably, he's using again, that music for loss leader. So whatever he's like, Look, if you can get me on the radio, that's going to get my name out there, get my brand out there and then get them into my ecosystem. I got all of this that they can buy.

Bob Rose 35:41
Yeah, I think that's one of the things that the that the labels still hold, is they still are kind of the radio, radio. But then again, that's something we talked about, like, it's not as important as he used to be like, No, I don't listen to the radio. You know, so I

Alex Ferrari 35:58
I tell you if im in my my car, if I'm in my car, and even then I'm either listening to an audio book, or XM radio or something like that.

Bob Rose 36:04
It's still important to the artists, though, it's super important to the artist.

Alex Ferrari 36:07
Kind of like, so radio is the equivalent of the movie theater for the filmmaker?

Bob Rose 36:12
Actually, yes,

Alex Ferrari 36:12
It's it's like the old way of consuming the content. And it's this tradition, that traditional way of consuming the content. We're now generations like you and me that we grow up like the movie theater, you're not a real filmmaker, unless you're in a movie theater, like the streaming things all nice and everything. But that's what that's our goal. And but there is also a generation coming up behind us that they don't really care, like did like I don't listen to radio. I don't care about movie theaters. There's a lot of them like, I've gone to a movie theater once or twice. But this this phone, is where I consume my media. Yeah, regardless if it's Apocalypse Now or the latest youtube craze? You know, it's fascinating. The industries mirror themselves so much. That's why I wanted to kind of touch base with you about this film, because it's it, there's so many lessons from it's the ban, that filmmakers watch, it's the band data, just again, replace musician and just put filmmaker in there. And essentially, those are the lessons you're learning. Now are musicians, leveraging the streaming in other ways to make revenue? And what are these ways? So what are some of these ways that they're generating revenue? I think I asked you already but like, specifically, like, I mean, obviously going on the road, autographs, personal appearances, access, licensing, sinking? Is there any other ways that they're leveraging the streaming platform since they're not making any money on it to generate revenue?

Bob Rose 37:43
Those are the main ones. Yeah, pretty much especially for the Yeah, the mid tier for sure. I think a bigger artists they're gonna do they're going to incur commercials and but your your independent artistry mid tier, the main ones are merged touring. And I think licensing licensing, those are your top three, for sure.

Alex Ferrari 38:02
Now. Now, how are musicians making money in the COVID-19 world? Because that was the second I saw that everything shut down. I'm like, oh, no more touring. And it's, and a lot of them make their living, touring. They sell their match there. They have their access there. They do pictures and autographs and all that stuff. That's gone. So have you heard from the people in your film, how they're, you know, what they're doing?

Bob Rose 38:32
Yeah. Well, I can more music. Yeah, well, yeah. Well, I mean, hey, if you guys have been on, if you scrolled your Facebook, everybody's been seeing these online concerts, these, these zoom concerts that bands are doing and some of our artists have done them. Yeah. And, and that's kind of like, you know, what, what, what they're doing now, almost every single one of our artists that are that are in the movie have done some sort of in home concert. And they're doing they have your little online tip jar where people can pay support, but also give them a tip if they feel like they want to. And I think that's been very interested in ice. You know, it's because that's all they have a lot of these people, they're just good enough where it's their day job, but they're not like raking, rolling.

Alex Ferrari 39:22
They're just it's, it's you know, they're surviving. They're surviving on their art, which, in today's world is a sucks you maybe you can make a living doing your art. That's huge. That's huge. If you don't have to go to a day job somewhere. You could just do what you love to do. Even if you're not rich, even if you're just making you know, just enough to get above board. Oh, man, you're you're in much better shape than many people in this world.

Bob Rose 39:46
Yeah, that's. Yeah, I'm sorry. So again, that's kind of where we settled on the movie is that, you know, if you, you you cut most of these Meteor artists, they fall into where they're not selling out stadiums, but they're making a sustainable living doing what they love. And you know, that's a success in itself. You know, you could be in a cube somewhere, would you rather make money in a cube or making music? You know,

Alex Ferrari 40:12
So like with your with your films, like your first film, and we talked off air that it did, you did well with it. You know, I'm assuming you're you didn't move to Beverly Hills into the hills of, you know, Hollywood Hills or something like that off off the revenue of that film. But it was a good amount of money that kept the kept the machine going. Is that? Is that fair to say? Absolutely. So you had a realistic understanding of what you could generate with your art. And, and you're making a living with your art where I feel so many filmmakers, I'm sure you've run into them, that they have this lottery ticket mentality that they have this, I'm going to be rich and famous mentality, if I don't make a million dollars off this next deal. I can't live as opposed to what I've preached for a while. But like, Can you make 50 grand a year, where you live is that enough to make a living is 100 grand a year where you make a living, then do that and then build off of that, you know, like you're building off your library, like you're gonna you have one movie, then you have another and you have another and they start building out your ecosystem, we where you can have that passive revenue. But you I'm assuming you find that out. And also in the music side, I'm assuming they're knuckleheads in the music side as well, who think that they're going to be the next Taylor Swift or Drake or anything like that, right? egos are everywhere you go. So what kind of future Do you see for musicians? You know, as technology continues to change, as you know, streaming is not going away, whether we like it or not. Same thing goes for our industry, streaming is not going away. And now because of COVID, there's so much talk about the movie theater is dead. And, you know, we're going to go, you know, Wonder Woman is going to go straight to premium. T VOD, and all this kind of stuff. Which I disagree. I think movie theaters will have a place but but it's going to change. There's no way we're going back to the way it was. So what do you what kind of future Do you see for musicians as as things continue to move forward?

Margie Rose 42:14
I don't know. I feel after COVID, I think part of it is they're going to do a little more virtual online. Like virtual concerts were not necessarily free, like you have to buy your ticket, maybe not for as much as a tour. I think that's one way they're probably going to change to be able to reach more people.

Alex Ferrari 42:36
In the mix, wouldn't it make sense if I'm a musician, and I have a following of let's say, I have a following of 10,000 people, you know what, on social media, that's a fairly, it's nothing, but it's not nothing. But it's not millions of people. It's 10,000 people. And out of those 10,000 people, these are solid 10,000. These are like people who purchased or looked at my stuff, anything. But if I go on tour, there's an expense to touring, there's all this other stuff. And if I could put on a virtual concert, and get 2000 people to show up at 20 bucks ahead, and you get some sort of special bonus online. Because that makes sense. I mean, don't kill touring just like don't kill the movie theater. Right? Right. But this is another revenue, this is you can make more money, and you're staying at home. And now people are also getting accustomed to it because of this quarantine.

Bob Rose 43:30
Well, yeah, yeah. Pretty much. Yeah. You know, I think pre COVID and what we're dealing with right now, entertainment is the one expense that people always going to pay for. Right? We some more Yeah, of some sort. I mean, in the depression, the movie industry goes up, you know, and I feel like that's kind of in our industry as well. So if things kind of sway back to normal, I mean, you know, we talked about this in the film, is that people want the experience, right? So let's, let's go outside of COVID. Let's say this, the beside that the future is is the festival, it's the concert. It's the people don't want to buy music, but they'll pay $100. And now, I mean, people are buying vinyl for artists and they don't even have a record player. Because they want to own a piece of that artist. So seriously, like these

Alex Ferrari 44:23
It's physical media because it's physical media into them. It's so novel to physical media.

Bob Rose 44:28
My son did that with Collector's Edition, BTS CD. And I was like, do you want to pop this in? I think my car I think my car has a CD, like no, no, it's good. I got it on my phone. I just want the big fold out thing and I'm just like, you're paying $50 for this big fold out thing. So I think and then taking that into COVID as long as everybody is rolling with the punches on this technology stuff because technology is the thing that's getting us through this right I mean, this is where the you know The Zoom, the zoom concerts and the zoom chats and how the Friday night zoom drinks that everybody's getting together. I mean, we're using technology to get through this. So I do feel this, I will say this, and I think this will happen with music. I think this will happen with our industry. And this is what I tell Margie all the time, I was like something bigs gonna come out of this. And I'm looking to see what that big thing is, you know? Yeah, I mean, in 2007, and eight, that was when we had the big housing, rollover and depression. Yeah. And that's what I thought right out of that Netflix popped out of that, you know, so I think that as long as people are staying with the times, and not trying to be reactionary to what's going on, and thinking outside of the box, I mean, I think that something bigger that we haven't even thought about, I mean, people talk about virtual reality, virtual reality concerts, I mean, that's definitely going to happen, whether we out with or without COVID. You know, that's, that's part of the future that's starting now.

Alex Ferrari 45:58
Yeah, it's it's really interesting how, how the This, this, the music industry, is basically a complete blueprint of what happened in the music industry is happening in our industry, but it's a little slower, because we're a bigger machine, and there's bigger parts moving as far as product and so on. But, you know, I really wanted to have you guys on the show, just to kind of bring this to light fairly clearly. I've seen this. I mean, I wrote it in my book, I have a whole chapter about how the music industry handled this. And they had they it took them forever to even find a way out. And now, and now they found a way to screw the artists, they will always find a way to screw the artists. They've been screwing the artists since Van Gogh. This is the first cave painting, or someone screwed up like, No, no, let me take that. Don't worry about it. I'm gonna I'm gonna charge these guys three rocks to get in and watch this thing. You go paint somewhere else. And that's, I'm sure that was happening in the hole. Yeah. Right. I got you. I'm gonna charge three by three rocks. You're gonna get two pebbles. I'm gonna have three rocks, you're gonna get two pebbles off the deal. Just keep being an artist and I'll take care of you, you'll have plenty of mammoth meat for you to eat.

Bob Rose 47:20
Caveman deals,

Alex Ferrari 47:22
Oh predatory caveman deals, you know, they're, you know, they were out there, there's no question. Um, but so I'm gonna ask you a few questions. Ask all my guests. Sure. What advice would you give a filmmaker wanting to break into the business today?

Bob Rose 47:35
Okay. First thing I would say is today is the best time to be a filmmaker. I mean, when you and I were coming out, you know, that's when there were only lottery tickets. Right? You would ask Robert Rodriguez how that stuff was happening. But now the tech is there. You can make things with your phone. More importantly, and I think this is the biggest piece of advice. I think a lot of people are grabbing their phones and doing things. But I don't think enough young filmmakers or people wanting to become filmmakers are spending their time to learn their craft and pay homage to the people like I mean, there's basics that don't go away. Like I'm sorry. But like no your line no your three point lighting. I mean, no your basic things that I think are getting a little lost. And then throw it away. If once you learn it, once you learn it. Because I think if I think that young people today are harnessing tech, everybody's an editor, everybody's a shooter. But if they just take that extra step to really and you don't have to go to film school, how everything's available on YouTube now, everything's available with with the courses like you offer an indie film, hustle TV. It's all there. You have everything at your fingertips. So use

Alex Ferrari 48:49
Can you imagine, can you I didn't mean to cut you off. But can you imagine having like something like indie film, hustle TV in the 90s

Bob Rose 48:55
I say that all the time.

Alex Ferrari 48:56
Like could you imagine killed for something like that.

Bob Rose 49:00
I would use to go to the library, and I just buy every book they had. And there wasn't that many. And I'm like, just Oh, they have a screenplay of pulp fiction. I'm just gonna read this. I mean, there was like I would, I would consume anything. I was reading textbooks before the class happened, you know. And so now everything's available. I do think some of that's getting taken for granted. But that's just a overall thing. That's not

Alex Ferrari 49:25
I did. I did laser discs. That's how I got my director commentaries before DVDs.

Bob Rose 49:30
Thank you saying that. I just talked about that the other day that that director's commentary could because my my school honestly kind of blew for filmmaking. They weren't even digital yet. I mean, I was real. I was reel to reel and two VCRs hooked together. I mean, yeah. So I had to take matters in my own hands. And and yeah, to have that and then the beginnings of the internet, so there's hardly anything there. You know, so I would have loved that dude. I mean, To have what you need I've been asked the classic story right to have what you need today, like back then, you know you'd be dangerous.

Alex Ferrari 50:09
So I just want to I want to date us a little bit more because we are of a similar vintages the I would literally hunt for a special like when it was VHS hunt for those making of tapes like like they had movie magic was a show, movie magic ever movie magic. Like they broke down T two and they break down Jurassic Park. And like any like and of course the Star Wars in the Raiders of the Lost Ark making of VHS as I would get. But that would be that wasn't that just wasn't anything that was just not no information out there when now we have a dilution to so much information.

Bob Rose 50:48
Yeah, my first I going way back to early childhood. I feel like when I first started getting into industry interested in filmmaking was at a super young age when we had like bootleg HBO, and they would show you how they made their HBO sequence when HBO comes flying in and they would just try to fill time with these making feature ads. And I was just like floored, and I mean, this is like five, six years old, and I would just watch that stuff. And I think it just stuck you know, always fascinated with that

Alex Ferrari 51:19
Anytime I'm making a book Come on HBO. You were obviously in a rich family because I had no HBO I had to steal. But thank you so thank I didn't want to get a little too Fufu here. I just wanted to make sure that your street credit was intact, sir. I had a guy. Oh. We all had a guy who split the HBO feed to your house for like 75 bucks. Okay. Hey, look you up with a feel for the year. Everybody. It's been so easy back then. Because it has come on a kickflip you got it got HBO. Literally I saw the guy he's just a splitter you just put up all right. What do you want? Um, do you do Which one do you want HBO Showtime. It was like Movie Channel. Remember the movie channels? channel? Yeah. Dan is where it was. It was called home box office back. And Brian Fraggle Rock in Fraggle Rock was still on. Oh, wow, we're going way back now. histologia train is coming my friend, man. So, um, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life? Hmm. That goes to both of you.

Bob Rose 52:31

Margie Rose 52:34
For me, it was in the film, especially, you know, working with my husband is not to take everything so personal. Because I am an emotional person. So just feedback. You know, but I want to cry because you're hurting my feelings. But it had absolutely nothing to do with me. It was literally the work that a client or you know, whatever, it takes a step back, and just process it in real time and don't get too emotional.

Alex Ferrari 53:12
That's really, that's actually really great advice. I had some I had another guest say that the other day. So like, just just don't take a personal

Bob Rose 53:20
Yeah, I would say that took a sink when she came in. I was already 20 years in industry. So I had like, work me. I talk fast. And I'm to the point that doesn't mean a manager. Right to the point. No time. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 53:35
That there's that there's that thing with when you work with your spouse that you just like, yeah, like the same way. I'm just like, I need that. It's just like there's no honey, can you do that? There's none of that in production. No, no coddling there's no there's no call. There's no crying in baseball. There is no crying in filmmaking. That's true. That's true. And three of your favorite films of all time.

Bob Rose 54:01
All right. Okay, all right, a one off okay. So for me, okay, I'll give you a narrative. And then I'll give you two docks. And then she I think you got a couple to write. So narrative I have to go with Boogie Nights. Yeah. Why? Because to me, that movie is just a classic. I mean, every scene is classic. Every character is is is perfect. And they all it's the biggest ensemble cast I mean, you take take out what is about although it is about filmmaking, which I thought was cool.

Alex Ferrari 54:34
Remember the remember the film is like I don't make I make films. I don't make videotape like he would refuse to shoot porn on VHS like it is.

Bob Rose 54:43
Shadows in life. Okay, the shadows. Oh, yeah. It's just a classic and I mean, I can't watch it. Like, it's one of those ones that every scene is my favorite scene, you know? Um, so then Okay, so, documentary. I'll tell you this. And this was For influential for me, what you were saying about making out was a Heart Heart of Darkness

Alex Ferrari 55:08
Oh, such a good movie.

Bob Rose 55:10
So it's the behind the scenes. I think that was the first time I actually saw behind the scenes, it was actually a film in itself. And it was just so influential for me. And a thin blue line just because it showed me that there was other ways to do a dock. And it was a crime dock. And at that point to me reenactments is a bad word. Right. And, and they showed you how to do it. Right.

Alex Ferrari 55:34
So that was, that was pretty that was pre Tiger King. Sorry, that was pre Tiger Tiger. 90 mid 90s. Yeah, I was with that. Yeah. And how about you? How about you, Margie?

Margie Rose 55:46
Well, one of my new ones that I enjoy I've never watched before. I just watched it during COVID. You just watched it during COVID with godfather? Oh, yeah. Or, you know, No, I wasn't allowed to go to the movie theaters. I wasn't allowed to watch a lot of different movies when I was growing up. So I've actually learned a lot with Bob. And not only filmmaking, but just the appreciation of the films. The Godfather, and the first part of the movie, the wedding scene. And it's just like you introduction to so many different people. It was huge. It was

Alex Ferrari 56:30
My wife still hasn't seen the Godfather. I have to get Yeah, she saw this in The Godfather. I'm sorry. She look. I got her. I got her to see six Star Wars films and she's like now refuses to watch any more Star Wars. Um, so you know, I usually she's not a sci fi. She doesn't like sci fi. She doesn't like she'll I know, which was pretty cool. You choose. Actually, you know what it was? And I did show the originals, but then I show to the prequels and she's like, Anna kids just this whiny bitch. Like he's just such a whiny little like golf bitch. I'm like, Yeah, I know. I know. Yeah, I shouldn't. Yeah, that's my that's my that's on me. That's on me. But she did enjoy the first three. She did enjoy the first 345 and six. And then where can people find you and your films?

Bob Rose 57:19
Sure. Alright, so as far as my handle, you can find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, as Bob rose TV. And same thing the handles for Instaband is Instaband movie on all platforms is like clearing the website. And then we have a new film that we're just starting now about arcade bars is token taverns. So if you're into beer and video games, token taverns on any platform,

Alex Ferrari 57:44
Very cool. And then I'm assuming it's a little easier to get a hold of them now, because there's not a lot of traffic. Unfortunately, unfortunately, but thank you guys so much for being on the show. I really appreciate it. It has been eye opening, I hope people listening, take the lessons from the music industry and instaband, and everyone should definitely watch it. To learn how to hustle in in a post COVID world as a filmmaker, I think it's gonna have a lot of lessons. So thank you again, my friend. I appreciate it, guys.

Bob Rose 58:15
Hey, thanks for having us on. Man, we really appreciate it.

Alex Ferrari 58:18
I want to thank Bob and Margie for coming on the show and sharing those knowledge bombs with the tribe today. As I said, in my book, Rise of the filmtrepreneur, and as I've been saying, for years now, the game is changing, ladies and gentlemen. And if we do not change with it, we will not be able to play the game any more. You want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, including how to watch Insta ban, head over to the show notes at indiefilmhustlecom/405. And guys, I also wanted to give you an update on my new film distribution course, which is now going to be entitled, The film distribution blueprint, all the early adopters to the beta version of the course have been helping me out a lot giving me a lot of feedback on the course and helping me build out easily the most comprehensive course on film distribution on the planet and completely updated to today's world. And I will continue to update it as we move forward because as you know, the film distribution landscape is changing constantly. So I will be updating and keeping this course as up to date as possible as we learn new techniques, new information, new platforms, new ways to make money with your film. So if you want to get in on the beta version, which will be closing in two weeks, in two weeks, I will close the beta version and the next time it comes out. It will be only at the regular price. So if you want to get in on the beta version now head over to indie film hustle calm Ford slash let me in Thank you guys for listening. As always, keep that also going, keep that dream alive Wakanda forever, and I'll talk to you soon.



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