IFH 360: Selling Scary Stories To Tell in the Dark with Cody Meirick

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Today on the show we have filmmaker Cody Meirick. Cody is the director of the documentary Scary Stories, based on the wildly popular book series Scary Stories To Tell in the Dark. We discuss how he leveraged an underserved niche audience, how he piggy-backed off the major studio release of the narrative version and how he was able to get access to the key players in this niche.

This past summer Academy Award®-winner Guillermo del Toro and acclaimed director André Øvredal created the hit movie based on the iconic book series.
It’s 1968 in America. Change is blowing in the wind…but seemingly far removed from the unrest in the cities in the small town of Mill Valley where for generations, the shadow of the Bellows family has loomed large. It is in their mansion on the edge of town that Sarah, a young girl with horrible secrets, turned her tortured life into a series of scary stories, written in a book that has transcended time—stories that have a way of becoming all too real for a group of teenagers who discover Sarah’s terrifying home.

Enjoy my “scary” conversation with Cody Meirick.

Alex Ferrari 0:10
Now guys, today we are completing our Halloween week with our guest today Cody Meirick who is the filmmaker behind scary stories, the documentary. Now this documentary is based on the wildly successful, scary stories to tell in the dark. And it is a very, very popular IP or intellectual property that no one really done anything with. And no one had ever really done a deep dive into the, like the history, the war of how these stories came to be and the popularity behind them. And it's only you know, it's one of the most Banned Books series of all time because of the scariness of them honestly. And Cody decided to put a documentary together. And it just so happened that Gizmodo tauros produced narrative version of that also came out this past summer as well. So the timing was perfect, it was absolutely perfect. And in this episode, we talk about how Cody is selling his film, how he's able to create a product for a niche audience, how he was able to reach that niche audience, get them excited about the product, the project, and his strategy on not only how they made it, but how he's really just getting it out into the world and monetizing that audience and providing value to that audience. So without any further ado, please enjoy my scary conversation with Cody Meirick. I'd like to welcome the show, Cody Meirick, man, thank you so much for being on the show, brother.

Cody Meirick 3:07
Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

Alex Ferrari 3:09
So we're going to talk about your documentary, scary stories today. But first and foremost man, how did you get started in the film business?

Cody Meirick 3:19
Sure. So I started. So I, I was always the creative type. And for a long time, I wanted to be a writer, I kind of I guess, I've thought back and realized back in my 20s, I spent my 20s, I spent wanting to be a writer, a novelist, right. And because I always had this creative side, and then around the time I turned 30, right before I moved to Chicago, got a job with an education nonprofit, where I work to this day, running a website. And nowadays, a lot of times running a website often involves creating content. And in this case, creating media creating videos, web content, instructional videos, that sort of thing. Right? And so, so I kind of learned a lot over the course of time working there becoming a halfway decent editor, you know, telling the story in three minute chunks in some respects. And so, so I got a certain amount of experience there. And at a certain point, about five years ago, I decided, you know, what, I have a lot of the tools and the know how and that sort of thing to do a film a low budget film, and and it's going back to this kind of creative side. And so, so I needed in a documentary really made sense. You know, essentially what I do is, you know, make three minute documentaries and web form, you know, putting on on a website and so, to a full length documentary made a lot of sense. I wanted it to be marketable, I wanted it to make sense. I also wanted to make sense for me to do it. You know, having a, from an education nonprofit talking about and also with degrees and literature and that sort of thing. You know, children's literature made a lot of sense it also, first and foremost, I always would recommend, if you're going to spend the years to get off the ground your project, then have it be something you're interested in to have that be something you're passionate about that sort of thing. And so, um, so this idea to do a documentary on this particular title, made a whole lot of sense for me. And so, yeah, I mean, at some point, you just, you commit, and you say, you're done this, it's Yeah, exactly. Like you've done all these plans, and so on and so forth. And you you bet at some point, you're just like, put it out there, guess what my name is Cody Merrick and I'm making this documentary. And, and it you know, it has fits and starts over over years. And documentaries definitely can because you can kind of piece together interviews and other things over time. And so and so that's what I did. So as I've been saying, five years, most of it happened over the course of three ish years. But then you can add on, you take into to some festivals, finally getting distribution, so on and so forth. So the whole process from get go to, you know, beginning was basically five years,

Alex Ferrari 6:21
Five years. So that's a long time to be on a project. So I'm assuming you're not doing this 24 hours a day, seven days a week. I'm assuming you have your this is a side hustle. It's just

Cody Meirick 6:28
No, no, I mean, the job I said, I got about 10 years ago here in Chicago, still there. It's developed the the website has really grown and I've helped it to grow and and we've gone it taken in different directions. But I'm still doing that, to this day. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 6:45
Very cool. Now, you made a documentary based on the very, very popular scary stories franchise, which is almost as like a goosebumps, I think, behind there only behind goosebumps as far as sales are concerned, correct?

Cody Meirick 7:01
Yes. Yes. And, and the interesting thing, you know, I did our interview, RL Stein, the author of goosebumps, and and he, he's kind of my celebrity, I definitely have some other fairly well known people, but RL Stein's the one where it's like, he's the Stephen King of the children's, you know, children's literature, everyone's heard pretty much heard of him, you know, and so he's a celebrity, right? And so, but anyways, but these are a little bit different than his because RL Stein has been interviewed about a million times. And it's a different interview, when you're interviewing someone who's been interviewed a million times. And these books, the author passed away a long time ago, and the illustrator is, is, at this point, famously known for not doing interviews. And so there was kind of a hole there that like, okay, you know, a documentary that kind of gets under under the hood and learns a bit about these books and how they came to be and how, how they're, it's kind of a fandom, you know, and that's what's great for a documentary is that, you know, there's people that are very passionate about this title, whatever it may be. And then also, you have the censorship piece, it's the, arguably arguably the most banned or challenged children's book of the last 40 years. I say, children's book book, the first year, in first decade that the American Library Association made a list, decade long list was in the 1990s, it was number one on the list, the most challenge book of the 1990s was scary stories to tell in the dark, and it was still in the top 10. The last one wasn't published since 1991. And so, you know, in between 2000 2009, it was still in the top 10. So it was still a very much Challenge book, even though they're, you know, they're always in print. But you know, you didn't, they weren't, you know, they had become more of a having a cult following, and that sort of thing. And so this is very different than, for instance, that goosebumps documentary, because there's there's a number other components that kind of go down and channel your documentary. And

Alex Ferrari 9:06
Now, when you went out when you decided to go down this long and windy road of making this documentary, you had obviously in your mind, you know, you chose a subject matter that is something that you can leverage. So you're leveraging the scary stories brand. You're also you're also leveraging the audience for scary stories was just over 7 million books, if I'm not mistaken, have been sold. And on top of that, how many more I've been read. So you're talking about million. This is a very large niche audience, but an audience that you could arguably target if you wanted to go after them through Facebook through other ways of cultivating that audience. What were some of the ways that you did cultivate an audience or plan to target this audience with your with your film?

Cody Meirick 9:55
Sure. It It takes time. I'm with with I also run this social media for my, the nonprofit I work for. So I've got a lot of experience with, with, you know, growing an audience on social media and that sort of thing and targeting a audience, right? A, you got to stay active. You just got to and you know, each one is different. I remember I have a friend who had his you know, doing a podcast, totally not filmmaking podcast, just a podcast anyways. And he, you know, I talked to him a bit about it and, and, you know, you're, you're still no matter what you're probably you're, you're attaching yourself to a niche audience. And, and so you're, you're you want to have a Avenue and all your, the different platforms you're on to be constantly pumping out fresh stuff that people can like, people can share, so on and so forth. People are gonna notice you because you you're pumping out new information. How do you do that? Well, each one is different, but I can guarantee you any, any, any documentary that has a topic, I can tell you what the niche is, right? You know, you what's the one usually use vegan chefs? Yes, the biggest chef, yes, vegan chefs. Well, there you go. I mean, that's, you wouldn't want a documentary topic. That's just food. It's way too broad. You're competing with, you know, websites and social media that you know, it's in shows and networks. networks, exactly. Now, start to niche down, okay, vegan chef, Okay, you know what you I, you can wrap your head around that there's people sharing things around, you know, being a vegan. There are people who've written books about, you know, being vegan, and I bet they would like to be promoted. So you promote them. And then when your film comes out, they're going about, oh, yeah, this is the person who shared my thing, so on and so forth.

Alex Ferrari 11:55
Did you do that with this? Did you do that with this, this movie,

Cody Meirick 11:59
if someone's been following me on social media for a while, they know I'm just incredibly active. With this particular one. You know, the art, the illustrations from the book are have become incredibly well known. And beloved by many people, people get tattoos of the art, people do adaptations of the art, but then in a different style, or their makes claymation things or I don't know that there's a million things where people are kind of paying homage to the art, I guarantee you in the past five years, if you made something I probably shares, made something related to scary stories to tell. And Doc, I probably shared it. Also, it's all based in folklore and urban legends. So there's a lot of kind of fun, interesting avenues you can go down, you know, just to pick one story, pick one single story from it. And I probably shared some kind of tidbit about that story at some point, so on and so forth on different social, I mean, it's just being really active, constantly pumping out stuff related to your topic, and people will like it, they'll share it, they'll comment on it, so on and so forth. You know, it's it's a hustle, you know, yeah. But I, you know, just leading up to my first crowdfunding campaign, I spent nine months building it, and I've been building ever since. But I told myself, I need nine months to even build a little bit of an audience for that first one, which I did.

Alex Ferrari 13:22
And how did how did the crowdfunding campaign go?

Cody Meirick 13:25
It went, Okay. I mean, I, I have, I definitely have a love hate relationship with crowdfunding at this point, which is to say, you know, I know, it's, it's, it's perfectly valid way to go. And I won't say I won't do it again, for sure. I definitely can't say that, because maybe I just need to that said, you know, so the first time I raised over 7000, and then I, and then the two subsequent times, I raised around 2000 each, so I raised somewhere in the 12,000 range, over the span of three campaigns, it happened, you know, different points of the production, so I could, okay, the first time I didn't, I just had a mostly video pitch, I didn't have a trailer. The second time I had a trailer. Third time, so on so forth, I mean, you know, you try to, you know, give them something new each time you're doing it. That said, each subsequent, Okay, number one, the first one was the most successful because no one had ever thought about doing a documentary about scary stories to tell in the dark. It was the coolest idea ever, and people loved it. I didn't have a very good pitch. The pitch video was actually on the back and I like it, but you know, but I didn't have enough for a trailer or a proper trailer, and, and so on, so forth. But just the very idea. Got me some press I got mentioned on some very major websites, just with the very concept of doing a documentary about these books. And so Then then subsequent ones, it dropped off, you know, a because I was hitting a lot of the same a certain amount on the same audience I was before through social media, you know, I'd been building it, but still, it's, it's hard. And then also, it's not a new idea anymore. So you know, people are still discovering it, so you can get some traction there. But it's, it's definitely hard to get new press if you know, F. Okay, I've heard of that. I don't know if it'll ever get done. So it's hard to it's hard to, you know, to see. That was my experience. That's not to say everyone has that same experience, but that was mine. And so it's, it's, it's tough. That said, could I have done this without crowdfunding? No, probably not. And I mean, it's, this is the end budget, I estimate being around $35,000, you know, and that was paid for, in various ways. And that 12,000 was a was a big chunk. Sure. So, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 15:57
All right. Now, a lot of people think that you'd need permission, or you need the rights to do a documentary on a known subject. I know the answer to be no, for the most part, depending on what you do with it. So can you talk I'm sure. This has come up. Were you contacted by the CBS film people who are the producers of the new Guillermo del Toro produced narrative feature film version of this?

Cody Meirick 16:31
So? Okay, so early on here, here's a, here's my advice right into that, if you can do you absolutely want to do and that is getting access. Now getting access, in a lot of ways is part of what's going to sell the documentary in the long run. But then also getting that access allows you to get out of various legal ramifications, if you're getting that access by access. I mean, okay. You know, for instance, in my case, the family of the author of the books reached out to me after that crowdfunding, first cap crowdfunding campaign, they love the idea of the censorship thing. I mean, I'm sure they'd like the idea of celebrating these books in a documentary form, and that sort of thing. But, but also, you know, the, the fact that I was really putting the censorship component upfront and a big part of what the documentary was going to be about. They liked that they loved it. And so they, they supported it. So so that right, there was a big thing, right? There was like a stamp of approval. Yes. And they were a little bit of a liaison to some degree with the CBS film folks. Yes, they heard about it along the way. Of course, this all happened over years. But they heard about it, you know, main thing, and they didn't have to tell me this, but I was told indirectly was just make sure you're not adapting any of the stories? Well, of course not. You know, I know that. I know, I can't do that. And it's a documentary. So I, you know, now, the illustrations, that's a different thing altogether. Yes. So, um, so again, the illustrator is, has been known for many years, it does not engage, whether it's interviews or anything else now, and I can see all over the internet that people are, you know, not only replicating his art, and they're putting on shirts and selling them, they're making money on his illustrations. And I've, after tons of research in numerous years, I knew he doesn't seem to be lawyering up and that sort of thing. So. So there was that. That said, That said, the tricky part, definitely, with the documentary is okay, you know, let's hope no one even tries to get a lawyer, right? And definitely, because it's so you want to keep every everyone happy you want. And if you're doing a relatively positive spin on it, then then you're you're relatively safe, which is to say, You're safer than not, you know, it's not like I'm attacking these books or attacking an IP, you know, that for some reason, then, then you're going to get into all kinds of, you know, possible ramifications and legal ones, all that stuff. That said, I mean, there's definitely a nuts and bolts part of it as far as, okay, you know, I don't have permission to use these illustrations, but I use them throughout the documentary, but people are talking about the illustration. It's illustrating a point that someone has seen with you so on and so forth. I mean, this is a nuts and bolts way of editing it so you're pretty safe. That said, you're still going to end up giving it to a lawyer at the end and saying, Here, watch the whole thing. How, how much risk Am I taking on right I you know, and you Yeah, I mean, one thing I would recommend is if you can, especially with a documentary, it's a bit easier. Get a fiscal sponsor. And that really helped because I don't know if I how much I could afford the legal fees that I needed sporadically. And I was able to get them for free, because I got a fiscal sponsor and went through channels to get that. And so that was very helpful.

Alex Ferrari 20:30
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Cody Meirick 20:41
You're always taking on a certain amount of risk. I mean, I don't know every film is risk, right? I mean, you do the consent process as best you can. documentary you're going to, you're definitely lessening your risk all along the way, by doing proper consents, and, you know, so on and so forth, and jumping through hurdles, and getting fit certain things signed from certain people and stuff like that. That said, I was told by another documentary film America or some time ago, I mean, you, legally speaking, you can get away with a certain amount of seconds, and you're probably not going to get any traction. anyone trying to say, you can't show that. I mean, if it's brief enough, and again, you wrap it in, like the fact that people it's it, people are talking about it, and you're showing something, you know, that's illustrating their point and that sort of thing.

Alex Ferrari 21:33
Yeah, there is, there's something called fair use. And there's a certain amount of of that, but there's a film that I always, always come up with, I always bring up is room 237, that documentary about Stanley Kubrick, yes, like you watch that movie. And they're like just shooting, they're just showing full scenes from the shining. Like completely in their action, I was showing full scenes of the shining, the shooting, showing full scenes of Eyes Wide Shut, and they're using it to demonstrate something else. But you know, and that movie didn't get to it. And I know it wasn't in a positive light. I mean, it made it made Stanley into this kind of reckless, crazy conspiracy theorist kind of thing. So it wasn't a positive spin on the film on Stanley on anything. So as you can see, the very first thing to say, this is not sponsored, or, or approved by anybody at Warner Brothers, anybody this or that. But it got made and got released in a large way. But the one thing that they do do in that movie is they never show a clip of a movie without someone talking underneath it. It's never like they just show a scene from the shining. Like they didn't do that they basically always had someone talking under it. So it's all about how much you want to kind of go after it, you know?

Cody Meirick 22:49
And that's, and that's what you learn about fair use, there isn't you? If you're looking for some kind of rule hard and fast, there isn't gonna find it doesn't exist. hard and fast rule is give a lawyer and talk to them along the way along the way. You're definitely you know, when it's finished, and you have your you have an account of it. That's the hard and fast rule is honestly, and I guarantee you they had they talked to a lawyer and they laid out risks, and then probably I get I'm sure they're still what were risks. I mean,

Alex Ferrari 23:18
It's massive. Yeah,

Cody Meirick 23:20
There's still plenty of risks there. I mean, to some degree, you're you're going down the road of what you can do, from the very beginning is choose a topic where, you know, you don't think anyone is going to have a problem with it, right? I mean,

Alex Ferrari 23:36
It all depends, like I mean, if you go, you know, like I did, I went to the Sundance Film Festival and shot a whole film at the Sundance Film Festival without their permission shooting while the festival is going on. And to, you know, a lot of people are like, Are you afraid of Sundance? I'm like, No, I really hope they lawyer up. Because Can you imagine the press on Sundance trying to crack down on an independent filmmaker to make a film about basically was a love letter to Sundance and Park City. On top of wasn't even negative, though I do poke a little fun. It's a it's a, it's a parody almost of what it's like to be a filmmaker, though. I think it's more of a documentary. Because it's ridiculous. But people were like, you know, but that's not even a documentary. But it is parody. And parody is another world that you can get away with. So it's all it's a real gray area, and it's all about the filmmaker and how confident they are that, you know, honestly how ballsy they are, because there's a lot of documentaries about subjects, that the subject matter in the documentary doesn't want the documentary to come out. There's, I mean, that's some of the best documentaries ever, are about, you know, are they you know, it's so it's, it's very interesting. So I was curious about that. And I wanted to get that out there because a lot of people don't, because this is a fairly known brand. It's a fairly known property. And you know, it's I Just kind of like I don't want to make the Harry Potter documentary. I'm sure there is.

Cody Meirick 25:05
What I've talked about a little bit is this idea of early on having a plan for taking your documentary out of the realm of being a fan film. Okay. And and, you know, Harry Potter is a good example, I can turn around and make a Harry Potter movie tomorrow. But how is that different? How did I add value? How did I make it any different than anyone posting anything on YouTube and just throwing up there of people random people talking about Harry Potter? Okay. And I really, you know, I, there's a, there's a, there's a glut of movies in general. But there's a glut of documentaries that nowadays everyone, and their brother has a documentary about every topic out there, right? virtually everyone. And, and that's kind of the running joke is now they're doing a documentary about this, you know, or that and so on and so forth. So you need to find ways to rise above that and say, Okay, this is more than a fan film, this is more I'm adding value. You know, I mean, a celebrities, that's the go to, if you can get some celebrities, great. interview them. That's, that's value because people like to hear celebrities talk about, you know, whatever it is be access, like I was saying earlier, you know, if you have access to the story, documentary there was making the festivals around the same time I was going around is a documentary about Monster Squad. Yeah. Great. Oh, favorite right of the 80s. And, you know, but there's a lot of cult favorites. What set that apart. It was one of the kids in the movie, doing the documentary. So he immediately had access to the quote unquote, official story of that movie. So that that, you know, I'm not going to turn around and make a movie about Texas Chainsaw Massacre tomorrow, because I have no access. And how, you know, how do I?

Alex Ferrari 27:05
It wasn't like that other movie The worst movie ever made? Or it was about troll two. Yeah, exactly. which one it was one of the the people that were in it, you know. So that, by the way, was not seen with that documentary. It's so much better than the movie. I can't even tell. Yeah, yes. Yeah. I actually felt when I saw troll two. After I because I saw the documentary. I'm like, Well, I gotta go see, watch. Then I watched role too. I felt a little bit of myself die inside. That bad of a movie. Like I love the room. I can watch the room all day. Yeah, and especially with a group of other filmmakers. It's even better. But yeah. Okay, so what was the the distribution plan for the film? And what kind of Windows strategy Did you have with it?

Cody Meirick 27:54
So I had, I definitely I did what you probably preach not doing what is to some degree, you know, you know, hope for the best sort of thing, go take it every step of the way. Take it to a few festivals. I didn't go to a ton of festivals because I do think, you know, unless you're getting in the top five or six, then you can definitely spend way too much money touring around trying to go to festivals, but I did a few and and and then that resulted in several distributors being interested right around the same time. Three in all, and they're all smaller distributors. I mean, there's a lot of them. Right. And so that was very interesting. And also very helpful because I you know, not that I'm going to go into detail here but I did get to see kind of the quote unquote, deal for several different of the smaller distributors. And that was an experience in and of itself, just so I can kind of see, you know, as much as you read here and there about it, it's still hard. Because even what you read sometimes are, you know, examples of, Oh, I made a small movie, it was a million dollars. Well, it's that that's not that's a different level, right? I want I want to read about the people who've made their you know, film for, you know, in the 4050 100 grand Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And and so you're, you didn't make it for 5000. So you do need to make money and you're actually you have a little bit of debt or you maybe you're paying people on the back end a little bit here and there and so on so so you need to make a certain amount of money. That said, you don't need to make a million dollars or $500,000 or anything like that. So So anyways, so that was a useful experience, for sure. Kind of seeing these different distributors interested in and seen a few deals and I went with one of them for for various reasons and Yeah, as far as and if I kind of knew what it would mean, inevitably, distributor reach contacts you, okay, let's look at their library. Let's do some research to figure out okay, here are the other titles is how different and similar are mine compared to others? You know, this was a, you know, a distributor that was known for horror movies lower budget horror movies that not a big surprise, it's a documentary I wanted I was mostly asking Okay, you know, they have done some documentaries previously but you know, the bread and butter is is more on the lower budget horror movies and so okay, you know, with documentaries, a big thing is is, you know, education distributors and that sort of thing. So I asked him a lot of questions regarding that. And but as far as the release and windowing, you know, I was surprised what we did, which is, you know, t VOD over the summer, and for about four months, and then and DVD as well in the middle of that. And then. And then amazon prime, which it's on amazon prime video.

Alex Ferrari 31:11
But you wind it out with the release of the the narrative film by by CBS Films. Yes, yes. Left to leverage that a bit.

Cody Meirick 31:18
Yeah, sure. Yep. I mean, wouldn't you? Yeah, why wouldn't we? And and, you know, how much that does? I don't know, it's all, it's really hard to parse things. Because, because I also hustled the heck out of it the entire time, in all kinds of other ways. And I've been building all kinds of things, so on so forth, and, you know, and they hired a PR company, how much, you know, they're, you know, a little bit late, you know, how a smaller distributor works, you know, they're going to put some, if you're lucky, they put some money into, you know, pushing it for a period of time, and they definitely did. So, it's, it's a little bit of, Okay, how, whatever success comes, it's, it can be difficult to parse, you know, how much is it? Was it me hustling? How much is it was a distributor actually putting some effort? And how much of it was just okay, you know, it was good timing. And so it was gonna happen no matter what.

Alex Ferrari 32:20
Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure how good I'm not sure what kind of response to you would have had five years ago? If this film would have come out?

Cody Meirick 32:27
Sure. Sure. I mean, but from the get go as far as the adaptation goes, you know, so I had the idea for this documentary five years ago. And I started to make a few spreadsheets, a couple lists and that sort of thing. And then boom, announced CBS Films, purchase the adaptation rights.

Alex Ferrari 32:44
Which means nothing, which means nothing

Cody Meirick 32:46
Which means nothing. Absolutely, absolutely. So five years ago, they put a couple writers that are long since gone. It's been in development for many years. And then so it could have never happened, which, you know, my my thing even back then was like, if it never happens, then my documentary all anyone has about this, about this. And so so even if it never happens, then there's there's a benefit there. Because it was obvious that people were excited, you could see you know, it was making news and people on social media and so on so forth, we're talking about who wouldn't have great be great to have a scary stories to tell him dark movie. So those same people in theory will, you know, get something out of a documentary that does something very different. And then, you know, look at the censorship piece, which really sets it apart from any kind of adaptation,

Alex Ferrari 33:38
Right. But I think also moving forward in the future people who anybody who searches for scary stories, you are the second, the or the second result for the year until eternity, or as long as those, those those films are up on those platforms. So that's not a bad place to do. Like if you do a back to the future, or a big trouble Little China as a call out to the two posters behind you. documentaries. Anytime someone searches for those movies, the documentary pops up right next to it, that's a good thing. That's a really good thing and easy marketing. It is. Anytime you could attach yourself to a a popular brand, and or franchise in one way shape, or form. documentary being the easiest way to do it without getting sued. Is, is a really good way of going about it. Now, you also talked a little bit.

Cody Meirick 34:27
I was just gonna say I mean, one thing I'd also recommend, I mean, if you can, and not all documentaries do this, but if you can attach some kind of cause behind it, you know, I have, you know, these are the most banned books of the last four years that sort of anytime, like if there's a f it's a movie, okay? You know, was it a black filmmaker? Was it a woman filmmaker wasn't what back when? There were many of those or was it this? I mean, I don't know this each one of

Alex Ferrari 35:01
1000 things. Yeah,

Cody Meirick 35:02
Yeah, it could be 1000 things. But if you can, if you can add some kind of emotion to it in some way, some kind of cause in some way, shape or form, I think that package is it's so much better and says, okay, there's a reason for this documentary to exist. Because I think from the get go, you have to make that argument, you have to say, Why make a doc this documentary. And so you have to, you know, it's, you know, punch people in the face with the fact that there's a very important reason for this documentary to exist. And so attaching that cause is,

Alex Ferrari 35:37
is how it's very helpful. And it also expands your audience, social people listening, you have a niche audience of people who like scare stories, but then all of a sudden, you've got a whole brand new spill off audience, which is just people who are interested in the concept of banning books, or the subject of banning of banned books and censorship and all that. That's a whole other group that you can target, which is arguably fairly niche, and arguably something that you could focus on whether they're going to want to watch a movie about scary stories, who knows. But there is a potential a potential audience there that just by tweaking the documentary a bit, it opens yourself up to it. So why wouldn't it make sense documentary more interesting?

Cody Meirick 36:18
Yes. And there's, there's Banned Books month is banned books week, which is September, which leads into October and Halloween time. So it's like September, October is like Bye, bye. You know, hopefully, people will watch it anytime of the year, but I feel like that time, time of year, people are talking about banned books, and then they're, then they're talking about scary movies and books and that sort of thing. So it's but you, but yeah, any cause you have, yeah, you're and you're totally right. You're kind of, you know, adding an audience and but you and you can focus in focus your efforts towards Okay, do they have a day or a week or something, an event that is all about that the invention is something you can read? Yeah, convention, whatever it is. and American Library Association is here in Chicago, and, you know, I've made been, you know, made friends with them and interviewed people with them, and that sort of thing. So there's various, you know, institutions around that cause that you can really, you know, you know, leverage. And in your, you're totally right, you're hitting a slightly different audience than you were before.

Alex Ferrari 37:25
Now, I always propose, you know, being a film entrepreneur, you always think about other product lines, other ancillary products that you can sell other things you can do, or services you can do, you're fairly limited in this scenario, because you don't have the rights. So you can't get you can't make a T shirt, you can't make a hat. You can't make a you know, a mug or, you know, anything that has the term scary stories on because you don't own that brand. But and I'm not sure if you've have done this, but this is my unsolicited advice to you. Since you have built up this audience that likes scary stories. Why wouldn't you create an affiliate program with Amazon, and sell scary story books, there's very merchandise, scary. So all that stuff. And you could easily put that up on your social media platforms, on your website, put a store together. So anyone who happens to find you, or finds out more about scary stories of documentary, if they go there, chances are that they might want to buy the book or buy a T shirt or but and that's something that you could just be an affiliate for. Does that make sense?

Cody Meirick 38:27
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I it's, it's opening those doors. But I think that's an app. Hey, you got no argument here? I don't know. I'll have to look into it. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 38:37
It's fairly easy to open up an Amazon affiliate account. And it's just an easy passive revenue stream that is 100%. Yours, you don't have to sell it, you know, if this is, you know, there's no deal with a distributor about it, nothing else. And when you have a brand as popular as this, you can create an online store, being an affiliate that sells not only scary story stuff, but then you start thinking like, well, if I'm RL Stein books, goosebumps stuff, you can start creating all these product lines, and little categories of things that that audience might buy. And if they click on I don't know if you know how affiliate programs work, but I'll tell the audience is if they click on your link for the stereo stories book, and like, I really don't want that scary stories book right now. But I do need that inflatable mattress. They click and they buy the inflatable mattress within 24 hours. If you click on that link, and you get I think it's 5% whatever the percentage is of that sale, depending on the product, and they could spend 1000 I you know, I make a ton every month specifically like they just click into like, I'd really want to buy that book. But while I'm here, I'll buy my groceries, I'll buy that shirt that I wanted, I'll buy that camera package I've been looking for or that lens and you get a piece of that action. So it's a really great way to make a passive revenue stream off this documentary. Moving forward. Yeah. Absolutely, I will absolutely. Look, look into that. That's good advice. Okay, so I'm going to ask you a few questions. I asked all of my guests, sir. What advice? Would you give a filmtrepreneur starting a project today?

Cody Meirick 40:18
I'll go back to the message of my documentary, which is read, read a lot. Yeah, I mean, you know, I never went to film school, but I've read a whole lot of books about how to put together a movie, how did you know, modern distribution, so on and so forth. So I yeah, I would say a lot of research and a lot of reading, I mean, just just make it a priority to, you know, I went through a period. And I'm not doing it now. But I went through a period where I was, oh, I was watching at least one film making documentary, a month, and reading at least one book, A filmmaking book a month, for a long period of time. And I mean, I'm, I'm, I know a lot more, and I'm a lot better at what I do. Because Because I made it a point to say, I'm going to consume as much information as now you get to ingest it, and then decide on your own, okay, how much of that am I going to take and how much, you know, doesn't apply to me, so on and so forth. But just just reading a ton. makes a difference.

Alex Ferrari 41:29
Educate yourself as much as humanly possible, put those tools in that toolbox. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Cody Meirick 41:39
Um, I would say that, that is a hustle. And it's an ongoing hustle. And so I've gotten a certain mentality sometimes, and I think we're all guilty of it, of planning, like crazy and getting everything prepared. It's like, you know, building the plane, because you're about to go off a cliff and you think, Okay, I'm gonna go off that cliff, it's just gonna fly and sail and the job is done. And voila, you know, I mean, I, I feel a little bit like I did that my first crowdfunding campaign where it's like, I put so much into that, and I just, I read, so many people say, it's just, you know, it's, it's like a second job for an entire six weeks or a month or whatever you do it, you are going to hustle, you know, incredibly hard for that period. But if you do, you will hit your goal. Well, I didn't hit my goal, I but I, I accomplished a certain amount and that sort of thing. But anyways, you know, you put all this information, all this planning into something, and you think it's just going to coast along after that. And that's not how that's not how life works. And that's not how filmmaking works. It's, it's a constant hustle, you know, the film's never done. But the nice thing, I think, so it took, I definitely took some time to learn that, but also, on top of that, the positive thing, the nice thing about being an independent filmmaker is that, at least for me, if you're in the producing, directing, writing type situation, your movie can define you more than then, you know, all the other things that you might you put energy towards, like, you know, you will always be attached to that piece of art, whatever it is. And so, I mean, I really liked that I like, you know, at one point, I wanted to be a novelist and but it was a similar thing where it's like, you put it out there in the world. And that's, that's part of what defines you. And if you you know, hopefully you really liked it, then then it's always out there, you know, and I, but like I said, it's never done. And you're always looking towards the next project where and you're also always looking at the last project to see okay, you know, got it. How is it doing, you know,

Alex Ferrari 44:05
And now three of your favorite films of all time?

Cody Meirick 44:09
I'm one of them. I probably have to choose a Charlie Kaufman movie. Eternal Sunshine.

Alex Ferrari 44:18
Oh, cool. I love adaptation. adaptation is one of my favorite.

Cody Meirick 44:21
That's my number two. If you caught me a different day, I might say adaptation but today I'll say Eternal Sunshine. I'm probably go with it's a little cliche, but I'll say Shawshank Redemption.

Alex Ferrari 44:35
I mean, if you've listened to the show you you know, that's obviously the greatest movie of all time. Was cliche because, I mean, if you don't, if you don't love that movie, you're dead inside and I can't speak to you. I mean, it's obviously obviously, yes, yes. So and then the third I will go with what dreams may come. I love The pressing is all hacked. But nowadays nowadays even more so? Yes, it's. Yeah, that's, yeah. For people who haven't seen that one. That's the one with Robin Williams about suicide and death. And it's it's rough. It's a rough. In hindsight, it's a rough movie to watch now, but yeah, it is beautiful dawning, it won the Oscar for Best Visual Effects. It was it was basically like a Renaissance painting. The whole thing was like a Renaissance painting. It was just gorgeous, beautiful. If he'd done good choices are good choices. Now, where can people find you and find the documentary and find out more about everything.

Cody Meirick 45:43
So you can definitely find me website. And social media is mostly scary stories, Doc. And so you can definitely find me there. Giant thumb studios, you can find the website, that separate website. And as far as the documentary, it's on Amazon Prime right now. And it's on all the major VOD. It's on DVD. So you can definitely Google scary stories to tell him dark documentary, it's all over, you'll find reviews, you'll find all kinds of stuff. So it'll be the first thing you find

Alex Ferrari 46:14
Little competition when there's no other one. So that's a good thing, too. You are in as what I like to call it the blue ocean where there is not a lot of blood in the water. So very good, my friend. Thank you so much for coming on the show, brother. I really appreciate it.

Cody Meirick 46:27
Thanks for having me. It's fun.

Alex Ferrari 46:30
I want to thank Cody for coming on the show and sharing his experience with the tribe today. Thank you so much, Cody, you want to see this documentary, or get links to anything else we talked about in this episode, please head over to the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com/360. And if you guys are listening to this on Halloween, please have a safe and fun Halloween, go out there and get some candy. Don't get too crazy. If you have kids enjoy it, the time goes very, very fast. My girls are growing up way too fast, but I'm enjoying every Halloween while they're still excited to go out. So thank you guys for listening. And I have a lot of stuff coming out the book is going to be hopefully out I don't think it's going to be out in November 7, because we just got into the graphic designer, you know, to put the book together as far as the, you know, the cover and you know, designing the interior of the book and all that kind of good stuff. So we might be a few weeks late, but it's going to be either by the end of this month for sure of November or early December because I want to get it out for the holidays. There's no question I want to get it off for the holidays. Because this is going to be the indie film hustle tribe gift to give to your favorite filmmaker or aspiring filmmaker without question. So if you do want to preorder head over to www dot film biz book.com. And on a side note, guys, if you are interested in reading amazing screenplays, well, I have very good news for you because I have access to the 2020 Oscar contending screenplays that the studios are putting out. So as they keep coming out, I will be updating this link. You can go to indiefilmhustle.com/joker. Now the reason I put Joker in is because Joker is one of the screenplays that we have on there right now. So if you want to read Joker, definitely go to indiefilmhustle.com/joker and download it and read it and learn from it as much as you possibly can. Have a Happy Halloween guys, as always, keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 283: Building an Audience for Your Indie Film with Paola di Florio & Peter Rader

Today’s guests are Oscar® Nominated writer/director Paola di Florio & and producer Peter Rader. They worked on one of my favorite documentaries in recent years called AWAKE: The Life of Yogananda.

The film is an unconventional biography about the Hindu Swami who brought yoga and meditation to the West in the 1920s. Paramahansa Yogananda authored the spiritual classic “Autobiography of a Yogi,” which has sold millions of copies worldwide and is a go-to book for seekers, philosophers, and yoga enthusiasts today. (Apparently, it was the only book that Steve Jobs had on his iPad.) By personalizing his own quest for enlightenment and sharing his struggles along the path, Yogananda made ancient Vedic teachings accessible to a modern audience, attracting many followers and inspiring the millions who practice yoga today.

Filmed over three years with the participation of 30 countries around the world, the documentary examines the world of yoga, modern and ancient, east and west and explores why millions today have turned their attention inwards, bucking the limitations of the material world in pursuit of self-realization.

Archival material from the life of Yogananda (who died in 1952) creates a spine for the narrative, but the film stretches the dimensions of a standard biography. The footage includes stylized interviews, metaphoric imagery and recreations, taking us from holy pilgrimages in India to Harvard’s Divinity School and its cutting-edge physics labs, from the Center for Science and Spirituality at the University of Pennsylvania to the Chopra Center in Carlsbad, California. By evoking the journey of the soul as it pushes its way through the oppression of the human ego and delusion of the material world, the film creates an experiential immersion into the unseen realms. AWAKE is ultimately the story of humanity itself: the universal struggle of all beings to free themselves from suffering and to seek lasting happiness.

The story of how they self-distributed the film from booking theaters to SVOD is remarkable. They did it all on their own and the film has been viewed by millions. I wanted to bring them on the show to discuss their methods for audience building, social media marketing, release strategy and much more. If you want to the IFH Video Podcast version of this interview go to IFHTV Video Podcast – Building an Audience for Your Indie Film with Paola di Florio & Peter Rader

Enjoy!

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 1:47
Now guys, today on the show, we have filmmakers Paola Di Florio and Peter Rader. And they are the producer and director or co director of one of my favorite documentaries of all time awake the life of Yogananda and many of you guys have been listening to me for a while I have heard me talk about a paramahansa Yogananda who is a spiritual leader and I brought over meditation and yoga from the west from the east to the west. So without him, there would be no yoga, there would be no meditation, he introduced it to the US into the Western world in general. And this documentary goes deep into Yogananda and what he was doing, but on a filmmaking business side, I wanted to bring these guys on because they self distributed their film. And what they were able to do was extraordinary, with the way they were able to do theatrical releases, to do community screenings, to do their own DVDs to do i mean getting booked, traditionally, in movie theaters by themselves, it was absolutely remarkable. So when I heard the story of how they actually were able to distribute this film, and made money and continue to make money, sold it to Netflix, and sold it to Gaia, and and all sorts of different things. We go deep into the weeds on how they were able to, to do everything. And they give us a blueprint on how they did it. So I really wanted them to come on and drop knowledge bombs, and boy, did they ever. So if you guys are even even slightly interested in self distribution, which this film was a perfect, perfect candidate for, then definitely get ready to take some notes. And like I've said before, self distribution is not for every film, it has to be a certain kind of film and certain kind of filmmakers for that to work properly. But if it does, and it's in and it's a good mix, and there's a good match, my God, you could do really, really, really well as I've given multiple examples on the podcast before. And also guys, if you are interested in seeing this interview, you could of course watch it on indie film, hustle TV on the indie film, hustle video podcast, and it is a great one. It just says I love this interview. This is a great interview. So without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Peter and Paola. I'd like to welcome the show Peter and Paola documentary filmmakers extraordinaire. Thanks for being on the show, guys.

Paola Di Florio 4:23
Thanks for having us Alex.

Alex Ferrari 4:25
I am a huge fan of of your work specifically the movie awake, which is one of the reasons why I wanted to have on the show, not only because of the topic of the of the movie, and it being one of my favorite documentaries, but also the the process of how you made it how you get it out there and we're gonna go into all that kind of stuff. But before we get into that first, how did you just get into the film business in the first place?

Peter Rader 4:51
I got the bug in college, I took this I was searching for what I wanted to do. I started like in physics and math. Then I went into the Economics I thought that was gonna be practical. And then I just took this one filmmaking class and the light bulb went off was like, Oh my god, this is it. This is what I want to do my whole life. So then I just had it for Hollywood and, and then I met Bella.

Alex Ferrari 5:13
Now how long you guys have been you guys work together? Correct?

Paola Di Florio 5:16
We do. And my background was really in the news with Italian television. And, and you know, it was I just before that when I was a kid, I was an actress. And so the whole idea of slipping into other people's shoes and seeing the world through other points of view is been like, I think a part of just who I am. And so the natural progression from short form to long form and then really wanting to have a voice and tell the narrative, to really, you know, storytelling. In nonfiction, having a stronger narrative was what I was attracted to. That's what brought me to documentary films.

Alex Ferrari 5:55
Now, how is it challenging working together as a couple because I had a business with my wife. And it was, and it was, it was wonderful. But it's challenging. So how, and we weren't creative. So I could only imagine the discussions. So how is it working together as how do you work together as a couple,

Paola Di Florio 6:16
Divorce is not an option.

Peter Rader 6:20
What's what's fun about our story is that our we made a film during our courtship, we actually met, and we actually connected on on the level of sort of union archetypes within our first 30 minutes of talking to each other. We're talking about union archetypes. And I was like, Okay, this girl is cool. And she had this burning desire to tell a story about expression, the need to find your voice as an artist and to express and she had a perfect vehicle for this for this story, which is this violin virtuoso that Ella, you grew up with.

Paola Di Florio 6:58
I grew up with not just learning. Sonnenberg was a world class violinist. And her mother was my piano teacher. And I just, you know, it was always far more interested in her than it wasn't my piano lessons. So that's kind of what spawned the idea of making my first independent film speaking and strings, and I had just met Peter. Um, and, you know, Peter was a huge impetus for me actually diving into that. So I was working on it. I was trying to do it, but I was waiting for everything to be perfect. The funding to come in and all of that. And he's the one who just said, let me shoot this. I know how to shoot. I was like, clapper loader. Do you live? Do you know, dilaurentis? You know, let me do this. And I think we started out with just like nachos coming to town I needed to do I needed to take him up on his offer. And that's how we started first working together. But during the course of making that film, you know, we were dating and then we were traveling together then he popped the question. And then we had all during

Alex Ferrari 8:00
All during that movie?

Peter Rader 8:01
Yeah. All during the movie

Paola Di Florio 8:02
All during the making of speaking in strings. And then we went to Sundance.

Peter Rader 8:05
You left out the marriage before having a baby. There was a wedding, there was a wedding. Then there was a baby. And we're like, you know, we got the baby in the Baby Bjorn. at Sundance, at the q&a

Paola Di Florio 8:18
I was pregnant at Sundance, we brought Matteo our first son we brought around with us to you know, festivals because he was you know, sleeping in a drawer and, you know, just that kind of effect

Alex Ferrari 8:30
Amazing.

Peter Rader 8:32
Because I was a big believer, you know, if you just dive in, you just start you start, you know, you don't you can't wait, nothing's perfect. It's never perfect. It began that film on literally a little you know, you know, consumer high eight camera, it ended up you know, being nominated for an Academy Award.

Alex Ferrari 8:50
It's amazing.

Paola Di Florio 8:51
Peters, a hugely inspirational coach and teacher, like I have to say he's taught at Harvard and some other places, and he's just really very inspirational. And so part of why I think it works for us to work together is that, um, you know, it's, it's just that keeping helping to keep the inspiration alive in each other. So he loves the process of filmmaking, but he was a writer. I was a filmmaker, and I just, you know, maybe it was more like, not as dive in, you know, we're insecure a little bit trying to find my way and here's this guy, he's just like, guidance, let's do this. And, you know, I'm gonna do it with you, you know, that kind of thing. And, and I really did find my voice in the making of that film. So

Alex Ferrari 9:43
That's awesome. Now, Peter, when you when you said you took a film class early on, what made you go to documentary as opposed to narrative?

Peter Rader 9:51
Um, so I went to Harvard, which is the opposite of a film school.

Alex Ferrari 9:56
I was about to say I have not seen many Harvard film school grads, that It's

Peter Rader 10:01
What they all they have this total bias towards documentaries and not just documentaries, highly personal documentaries. We the joke was at Harvard, you have to make a film at Harvard, you have to grow a beard, do a personal documentary that involves the birth of one of your children. And make sure that you pan across a mirror as often as possible to show your beer. That is a Harvard documentary. And many people at Harvard were making those in fact, Ross McElwee, Sherman's March, you know, created that form with the movie, you know, the diary cam, this was a movie that really transformed mentary filmmaking he still teaches at Harvard, but there was a whole generation of us that really were kind of wanting to go to Hollywood and go to fiction, you know, and we really wanted to make commercial movies, not these really, you know, esoteric, artsy documentaries. So, I started out on a fiction track and, you know, I made some low budget features. As a director, I did some music videos first and then kind of fell into writing. It was sort of a dead end, this genre, low budget, you know, sort of AFM features, were kinda like, do I really want to put my name on that? You know, so I, and I had Beginner's luck, I saw my first script, and it became a big studio movie. And then I was kind of on that studio writing track, sort of the development hell writing track, until I met her, you know, I basically got far away from what I fall in love with, which is actual hands on filmmaking, you know, that's what I love is the actual you know, we I started out with Bill cutting on you know, on a steamer. So, so when when Valentine that she was like, you know, let's let's, let's go to Sundance, let's, let's see real filmmaking. I'm like, Yeah, let's do that. Yeah, so that was a breath of fresh air.

Alex Ferrari 11:45
You guys seem to be very young and gang for each other. Just Just by the small amount of time that I spent with you already. And just this conversation, you guys seem to balance each other quite well. Your question is, who's the Yang? And who's the Yeah, well, that's a whole other question I will not get into right now. On Wednesday, you know, it's just depends on the day. Now, you guys did an amazing documentary called awake, which is arguably one of my favorite documentaries of all time, and I watch it all the time. I told you this when I met you guys a while ago. And it's such a powerful film for me, because I'm such a lover of Yogananda. paramahansa Yogananda his work? Can you talk a little bit about what how this film came into the world? why you decided to go down this path? And honestly, there hasn't been another documentary if I'm not mistaken, correct. about his life?

Paola Di Florio 12:37
No, but there have been many people that have gone to the SRF, and to the organization to try to get the movie made. I think that, you know, what happened was that the direct disciples had been slowly passing away. And that first hand information, you know, from those who actually lived with Yogananda, while he was here in the flesh, was it was very important, and I think it was important historically, as well as to his, to his deputies. And, you know, we made the film with Lisa Lehman, who co directed and co wrote with me, and, and co produced with us. And, you know, initially it wasn't, I mean, you know, you when you make a film, you dive in, and you're living, especially documentary, you're living with the film for years. So it's not something that I certainly take lightly. And I wasn't really sure that this was something that I wanted to do until we were sitting in a room with the monastics. And I was very impressed with the people that we were sitting with. And there was just something that happened in the room. I don't know, I don't really know how else to say it, except for it was exploratory for us, but I'm impressed with them and impressed with something about the timing of Yogananda. He know he brought Kriya Yoga.

Alex Ferrari 14:06
Can you can you real quick before we continue, can you explain a little bit to the audience who Yogananda was because I know you probably all know who he is, but the audience might not know his work. Sure.

Peter Rader 14:18
Sure. So Yogananda is a Bengali Swami who was born in Calcutta in the 1890s and was the first sort of Hindu Swami to sort of moved to America permanently. He lived here for 30 years, he arrived in 1920. And he brought basically yoga and meditation. He introduced it into America. There had been some other Swamis. But Yogananda was the guy who stayed here the longest and really was going town to town, you know, concert hall to concert hall, basically giving these free lectures on yoga. And this was the era before radio before television, so there was not a lot you know, it was actually kind of a thrilling thing to do to go see the long haired Swami with a turban. You know, talk about these exotic practices in the east. And, you know, he was so magnetic and so charismatic that he would just like trance, you know, electrify a room. There's a famous incident at Carnegie Hall where, you know, he actually got, you know, 1000, whatever, 1500 New Yorkers to chant with him for an hour, it's getting in Sanskrit. And he just, you know, was doing his thing. And

Paola Di Florio 15:25
He brought the teeth, these ancient teachings, he brought them and made them, you know, practical in day to day life, he really gave how to live teachings, you know, how to be the best businessman that you could be how to how to live with maximum amounts of energy, you know, that he would take sort of daily, every day, challenges of being human, and he would apply the Sanatana Dharma teachings to that. And I think that that's what really hit home. But more importantly, he was teaching Kriya Yoga, which, you know, is a type of yoga, it's that works with energies and spine. And, you know, the idea of, he would say this, that this the altar of God is, is, is the brain, essentially, the spine and brain is the altar of God. And what an interesting concept that we as human beings, can, you No, actually activate energies within the body that connect us to a higher power. And that is really true, true freedom and true independence. So the notion of that it was easier to understand these concepts of energy being accessed like that, and worked with because of what was happening in science at the time. And so quantum physics was coming into play. And this was a new idea. And so people were connecting what Yogananda his message was and what he had to say about Kriya Yoga, and it was making a little bit more sense, they were able to access it a little bit better, because of what was really unfolding in science at the time. And this and for everyone listening, you have to understand that this was what the 20s

Alex Ferrari 17:20
Yeah, I mean, because now, everything you just said, We completely would fall right into a lot of the conversations that are happening there. But he was the way he looked back in the 20s. Can you imagine no one had ever seen. It made heads? It was head spinning, exactly. You're talking about.

Peter Rader 17:37
Even the notion of you know, he took Christ and Krishna and put them side by side on his altar and said there this basically the same dude, there are two sides of the same coin, you know, and he would he worshiped the divine in the form of the feminine Divine Mother, that was also a radical concept. You know, we were Christians, and we were, you know, basically indoctrinated with this idea of the sort of bearded God with the lightning bolts, you know, and that was your only access point in it. You know, in Vedanta, there's this very expansive notion of divinity. You know, divinity can just be a feeling, it can be the feeling of peace, you know, that could be your God, you know, you can cultivate devotion to, to whatever your point of entry is, it's a very attractive philosophy. And, you know, Yogananda went on later in his life. And in the 40s, he wrote this sort of seminal book Autobiography of a Yogi, in which he talked about his own quest for his guru, and as a boy and running around Calcutta and looking and searching and wanting to connect with this feeling that he, you know, was longing for. And it's, it's such a popular book. I mean, it's been translated into over 30 languages, I think 30 million people may have read it. And you know, one of the most famous is Steve Jobs. And he wrote, read that book all the time. And apparently, it was the only book on his iPad at the time of his death. He also gave out 800 copies at his memorial service. So it's one of these gateway books that many, many people read. So

Alex Ferrari 19:05
And it also changed the Beatles life as well, if I'm not mistaken. We wouldn't have had Sergeant Pepper, I think without his visit to India, right. Or was it before after surgery papers before? We wouldn't have had the put the gurus on the cover of note that Yogananda is on the cover of surgery.

Peter Rader 19:24
Yeah. But it was before they went to India. For 67 they went to Indian 68. But we wouldn't have you know, across the universe and let it be all you need is love and you know, Exalted songs. Yes, we're part of the

Alex Ferrari 19:39
So so you taking this undertaking of of telling the story of this immense figure in history. There's a lot of I would imagine a lot of pressure on you to do it, right. I mean, there's people like and you like you said, many filmmakers and many other people have tried to do this and gone to the center of self awareness. Where, where's basically the hub of all things? Yogananda and they've been rejected. So when you guys got the keys, the lunatics run the asylum in a way. How did that feel? And and, and again, why did you want to tell the story as a documentarian?

Paola Di Florio 20:19
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I would say, you know, funny, ignorance is bliss, in this case, you know, because I think and to the credit of the organization who opened up their archives, I mean, they had to be a part of this, because they had to open up their archives. And there were outside, you know, devotees that had wanted to see the film made, right. And, but they wanted, they stipulated that it had to be outside filmmakers. So I thought that that was really interesting. That was that was an entryway that was certainly of interest to us. The fact that they were seeking outside filmmakers made it really attractive to us so that there was an interest in in sort of beginner's mind. And beginner's mind is a beautiful thing. And, you know, we don't have that anymore. We've been like, you know, deeply entrenched in his teachings now, and so it's a whole different thing. And, and I think they're, that that's, that's what we were looking at. So we were filmmakers, we knew how to tell the story, we had a certain openness to this, we had been yoga practitioners, meditators, Lisa, as well, um, you know, so we were all coming from a place of meditation and yoga being a part of our lives. But I think, for me that this the sort of yoga as a science, which is the way it's often seen, you know, in the east, I mean, that that was very interesting to me that there was this methodical approach to self realization that you could actually take a, you know, these techniques, and apply them to your life and do them and just kind of see what happened, that you the human being was, you know, you were your own scientist, and your body was your laboratory, to take these things and try them. And like an experiment, just notice and observe and see what was unfolding before you. So that was very attractive to me, especially given the times that we're living in right now. You know, I would say, it's so obvious that we are living out of balance on this planet. And it doesn't really matter what side of the aisle you're on. You know, it's um, it's almost like, you know, science and technology, we've advanced so much in that regard. But we haven't really balanced it out with our spiritual acumen. So, yoga is really the, it's the science of balance, it's the sun and the moon, it's the energy of opposites, it's bringing balance into our lives. And harnessing, you know, the, the these energies brings us brings the self to the highest self, right? It trends, it trends, what's the word I'm looking for it, it's transcends, it transcends exactly, it's a way it's transcendence, we can transcend the limitations of the body, and of the mind, in that process.

Alex Ferrari 23:22
Now, when you guys got Peter?

Peter Rader 23:25
I was just gonna say that, you know, one of Uganda's quotes, great quotes is that, you know, the ideal future would be a combination of the ancient wisdom of the East and the modern advancements and technological material progress of the West, you know, this idea of synthesis that we're so skewed towards the material paradigm now, I mean, in terms of the message that was blasting across all the media channels, and everything is by by by Me, me me more and more, acquire, acquire, you know, that's your, that's your, that's where you can get your contentment. And yet, there are these ancient teachings that are so much more profound, and ultimately lead to a much more content state of being. And if we can balance the two, you know, then then we really have hope here in the future. So that that was a really attractive aspect of his message. And, you know, one of the things that he wanted to bring in to the film,

Alex Ferrari 24:17
And I think that nowadays, there is definitely something changing. I mean, from the time that where he was around to the point now, where meditation is now, not a weird thing. You know, yoga is not a weird thing. It is in some parts of the country, but in a lot of places, it's still something that's spoken of, and that's basically from his Genesis from the work that he put in. So, again, I think the undertaking of what you guys were going after was pretty massive, pressure wise, as

Paola Di Florio 24:44
It was a huge challenge. And I think that not knowing or understanding quite the pressure that we were under there was I think that that's the only way you get through these things, right. They say it's like childbirth. You shouldn't know what that's like. Because you won't do it,

Alex Ferrari 25:02
You wouldn't ever have children if you actually knew what was gonna happen.

Paola Di Florio 25:06
And I think that the challenge was also I mean, the three of us very often sat in the editing room really grappling with, you know, some of the biggest questions in life, you know, about the human condition. And just, it was great to have different points of view, we're all bringing different things into that as our entry point. Now, what is your process when

Alex Ferrari 25:26
You do a pre production on a documentary? Since I know the narrative pre production process? I have no clue of the documentary process? How do you prove how long is pre production? What do you do? What's the process?

Paola Di Florio 25:38
It really depends on the film I look at each film as its own, has its own identity has its own needs, you know, and you really look at the needs of the film. But in general, there's, you know, a pretty hefty research process, you really, you really need to go into understanding the subject that you're researching, and to read and to take in information to organize that information. But at the same time, you're really coming, what you're doing while you're doing all of that is you're just dating this process of what is that? What is the narrative that's trying to be told, I look at it as, for me, projects often are choosing me, even if I think I'm choosing them, you know, like with speaking in strings, my first film, but really, it was choosing me because it was trying to draw out from me, something that I had to experience and go through it, I'm saying and I really believe that that's, you know, so much with the creative process is really all about. So, you know, um, you end up just bowing to it, you know, you do your research, and you're trying to at the same time, put your antennas up and listen and receive what the messages are, what is that narrative that's trying to unfold here. And in this case, we, you know, we put together a treatment, it was a massive, you know, thing to try this together. And so, you know, we did about six months of r&d phase,

Peter Rader 27:09
We literally call it an r&d phase. And we've done that on several projects. Now, it's such a sort of a healthy way of jumping in, which is, okay, for the next three to six months, we're just exploring, we're gonna do some exploratory shooting, we'll do a couple of interviews, maybe some shoot some, you know, sequences, we're also going to do, you know, hire a team and start getting in there, and, you know, doing research and archival research, and then we're going to start creating a palette of what this film could be. And, you know, start to, as Pamela says, What is the film that is wanting to emerge? And one of the things you know, Pamela has been a great teacher to me, in all of this. You know, since I started in the narrative form, where you begin with the script, here's the script, now, we're going to go make the movie. And here's the template, here's the blueprint for the movie. Well, in documentaries, it's the exact reverse, which is the script is the lap, you write on the timeline as you edit. And, you know, the organization kept asking us for a script. In fact, I think we even have a contractual obligation to produce a script, and we're like, we're not writing a script, you know, well, the script will be the transcript of the Final Cut, when when we have locked cut, we can transcribe it. And that will be your script, because the film needs to be discovered, you know, it to prove to be authentic, you know, it needs to be found.

Paola Di Florio 28:25
There are different ways to do it. I mean, you know, you're if you're cranking out documentaries for TV and stuff, you know, you just script and you're using B roll, you know, but I think that this was more of an exploratory process. And we went from, you know, treatment to outline to discovering the language of the film on the timeline, and then actually starting to create cuts.

Alex Ferrari 28:47
Now, one of the things I love about the movie too, is the, the reenactments are so beautifully done, and they're so wonderfully placed throughout the story. How important do you think that is? In your process, and it's something that more documentaries should have, because I always love reenactments, when they're done well, when they're shot. Well, I've seen some that haven't been shot. But if you shoot a

Paola Di Florio 29:12
Thing that that is, so that is so awesome that you appreciated them. I mean, it was it was actually a big battle to get the reenactments done.

Alex Ferrari 29:20
In what way?

Paola Di Florio 29:22
Well, you know, I'm, in other words, we weren't really in agreement, as a team on on, you know, whether to go down that route. So it was a little bit of like trial and error convincing. And I think that I, you know, here's the here's the deal. You have to feel we were trying to make an unconventional biography, right. That's why there are two things that felt to me like the the language of the film that would help us really feel the presence of Yogananda and that was to really feel the presence. sense of him as a boy, that one that the seeker that the one that hadn't been realized the one that was just still going into, you know, saints homes in Calcutta and trying to get the wisdom and trying to find like, you know, he's so hungry for the wisdom.

Alex Ferrari 30:16
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Paola Di Florio 30:28
The seeking part of him, we really wanted to be able to show that to express that to manifest that in some way on the screen. And then his voice, you know, it was trying to really harness his voice, I couldn't believe that, you know, how many people do you know that remember, when they were born, they remember, into the womb, they remember. They remember how, you know, they actually felt coming out of the womb, and we're cognizant of the be feeling torn between two worlds, but spirit and like being material in the material world. So those two things, finding his voice, and using recreations to me were two tools that we could use to help the audience really feel that they were in the presence of of yogananda.

Alex Ferrari 31:18
And that's something that really, I felt I reacted to that when I watched it, because I did feel that, and I've seen the movie a bunch of times now. And every time when I hear that voice, and I see those images, it really does, it just brings the whole thing together in a way that just that interviews and B roll would have done.

Peter Rader 31:35
And we didn't really have a choice in the matter, you know, there's only like, what is it a dozen photographs at most of him in his youth and his family or whatever, and, you know, visual medium, so we needed some method to tell the story. And, you know, we talked about metaphors and visual metaphors, you know, we talked about all sorts of ways, how do you convey a feeling? How do you convey a feeling of longing, you know, and ultimately, you know, you do need actors and, you know, you need to look into people's eyes and have, you know, convey that feeling. But, you know, as you said, Alex, when recreations are good, they're fantastic. And when they're bad, they're so

Paola Di Florio 32:14
There was the risk of it being bad, you know, so that was the thing, you just had to have a lot of, you know, to see it, and then just really try to reel and Arlene Nelson our dp, I mean, I have to say, I just hand it to her, because it was just she, she really got that. And, and then, of course, we treated them and did all these things in post as well. And, you know, we just had a really great team of people that helped us realize them in the way that that, you know, we really envisioned it.

Peter Rader 32:43
We study a lot of films, you know, one of the films that inspired us was man on wire, like the great movie. I mean, it really makes the film. So it was, it was really well done. recreations was our point of, you know, that's what was our aspiration.

Paola Di Florio 33:00
And the magical realism, I think came from a Spanish film that Lisa had found the beehive the something that would be the title of that spirit of the beard of the beehive. Yeah, beautiful film, and, and it kind of had a language of very, very subtle magical realism. And so, you know, that was a really great resource that that we used as well.

Alex Ferrari 33:25
Yeah, very cool. Now, now that you got the movie done. Now, I'm assuming you guys were thinking about marketing and distribution, and how to sell this movie during the process, or I have to believe you were doing it during the process, as opposed to at the end going, Okay, now, what, what was the marketing plan? What was the distribution plan to get this out there into the world?

Peter Rader 33:47
So, we were blessed with making a product in which we had a very clearly identifiable core audience, you know, have Yogananda devotees, and there are, you know, by some estimates, around 300,000 people worldwide who consider Yogananda to be there who are very, very devoted to his teachings and his message. And then there's another number that we sometimes reference, which is, you know, the number of people who read the book, which is around 30 million. So we have a target, we want to speak slot was between the 30 300,000 and the 30 million somewhere in there was going to be our audience, and we had to figure out, you know, how to reach them. And we consider,

Paola Di Florio 34:30
You know, the goal was to go beyond that job. So, in all in all fairness, it was really our mission was to make a film that went beyond that crowd, not to alienate that crowd but to go beyond that. And so we were really looking at the number of people practicing yoga. And and you know, we had the statistics of how many people were practicing yoga just in the us a couple 20 million and now we have the you know, we have these Statistics worldwide, which, you know, are above 350 million. So, you know, there were, there were those numbers that we knew if we could just tap into even just like 1% of that, you know, we

Peter Rader 35:12
Would have an audience. And, you know, while we considered very briefly, actually, you know, going with a traditional distributor and sort of handing the film over palla, you know, on a previous film, we had consulted with this gentleman named Peter Broderick, who coined the hybrid distribution. And, you know, he's been talking about it for 20 odd years now. And we realized that this was kind of the perfect villain to do that. So So we, we decided pretty early on to self distribute, that we would, you know, um, carve out rights, you know, separate out all our rights and kind of window them out in a sequence that made sense for us assemble a team, we had around 20 people on our distribution team that we were basically managing, you know, on a standing weekly call, and we created a distribution plan, a strategy of how we were going to roll out these various windows and and take advantage of, you know, what Paolo was saying before is okay, so you identify your core, but then there are these concentric circles or a Venn diagram of overlapping circles. So you've got your Yogananda devotees, you've got your meditators, you've got your, you know, wellness community, you've got this, how are we going to get to them all? And how, you know, are we going to go, you know, from town to town, and, and roll out. And so in other words, it was something where it was kind of a yogic distribution plan, because we were learning about it as we were doing it, you know, it was really amazing.

Alex Ferrari 36:39
And how did you guys do? Because I remember you, when we spoke before you were talking about your theatrical, which I thought was in a very interesting way that you guys released your theatrical? Can you talk a little bit about that process?

Paola Di Florio 36:49
Yeah, I mean, I just want to also say that we were realistic about the fact that it would probably be challenging to get this film distributed through a traditional distributor

Alex Ferrari 37:00
You would have no idea what to do with it.

Paola Di Florio 37:01
Exactly. So you know, I think it's important to kind of just start with that. And because they think that when you make a film, you kind of need to know already, you know, number one, who your audience is, you're working backwards in a way, you know, just strategically if you really want to get it seen, and then you know, you have to know what you have in your hands. And we were playing with something that really hadn't been done before. And so, you know, we were prepared to take this route, we had talked about taking this route of, you know, doing the hybrid distribution model. And the advice, you know, that we were getting from Peter is, you know, so I really love the strategy that he has, which is dipping your toe into, you know, a market. So starting with New York, we, you know, we and we've actually for walled in New York, and LA,

Alex Ferrari 37:53
Can you can you explain to the audience for walling is?

Peter Rader 37:56
Sure. So what we did was, the first thing we did was we identified which dozen cities have the most concentration of our core audience, you know, in America, and that's where we're going to start. And so New York was one of them. Los Angeles, obviously Encinitas, where, you know, Yogananda had an ashram, there was a couple of other places Northern California. And for walling is where you basically, book that you rent the theater for a week, you rent the right to show your film for for four showings a day for an entire week's run. And for in a place like New York, that will cost you around $10,000. But if you know you can fill those seats, you can actually make a lot of money doing that. And we did you know, in New York, I believe we made $34,000 in that first week. So we had a $24,000 profit just from that one engagement. And then the theater held us over, they said, Oh, my God, this film is really performing. I want to book this film. So we ended up staying another six weeks beyond that in New York

Alex Ferrari 38:55
Without having to pay for it. They actually have traditionally

Peter Rader 38:58
Exactly turned into a traditional booking, same thing happened in LA and a couple of other markets. In fact, unbelievably, we played 23 weeks at the level is in Pasadena in La 23 weeks.

Paola Di Florio 39:11
On Sunday afternoon. It was just some people just kept coming. So they just kept it going. And on a Sunday afternoon. It was great.

Alex Ferrari 39:18
Yeah, that was ended. So you did all of that without thinking well, you weren't you decided to spend the time to do the theatrical run first, and then you were going to roll it out. So what was the next rollouts? Because you didn't do everything at the same time? Obviously,

Peter Rader 39:33
Actually, can I back up? Before theatrical which is even before theatrical? We we started to create buzz and awareness. We attended a couple of conferences, for instance, wisdom 2.0 in the Bay Area, where like high tech meets higher consciousness, and we figured this is ground zero for us, especially with the whole Steve Jobs connection, right. So we convince the organization to give us 500 copies of the autobiography for free Which we just gave out at that conference, we had a big display, you know, stacking the books with our postcard in the book. And you know, our film postcard in the book and it says, This is the, you know, the book that Steve Jobs had on his iPad all the time at the time he died and it's yours for free. And they like just went like gangbusters. Do the same thing at the yoga journal conference in San Diego. And we were basically getting to, you know, sort of celebrity, you know, yoga teachers and trying to get them interested in the film. And then they started telling their classes about it.

Paola Di Florio 40:31
So it's kind of considered grassroots in a way we were doing like, you know, pre screenings to kind of create buzz.

Peter Rader 40:39
We also did Bhakti fest and Joshua Tree in September. And coincidentally, the Smithsonian was having a museum, a traveling exhibition on yoga and the ancient teachings, and we just pigtail on to that

Paola Di Florio 40:52
The timing was amazing. You know, I do have to say Timing is everything. And we this movie took a long time to make and we kept asking ourselves, like, Why is it taking so long? Why is it taking so long? And, you know, just the kinds of things that happened in that time that it got, were the things that helped mobilize the film when it went into distribution, but go back to like the, because he's asking what we were doing

Peter Rader 41:18
Magical on demand, along with, right, so So in addition to traditional theatrical, some of it for walling, some of it you know, booking the numbers in New York, made everyone suddenly look at us and want to book us so we started to get incoming calls, which was fantastic. And we had Richard Abramowitz of Rama Rama was our theatrical Booker and did a fantastic job. concurrent with this, we were also doing what's called theatrical on demand, which is how it's like Uber meets, you know, indie film distribution, which is, you can actually get an AMC to show your movie on a Tuesday, because they're going to make more money, if you guarantee them 700 bucks for that eight o'clock screening, then if they show you know, the rerun ups or whatever, the remake of some blockbuster that's only gonna have 20 people in the audience. So you can actually get your film into practically any theater in America, if you get enough people to pre reserve tickets, and they have an algorithm and a widget that fits right on your web website, we use a company called gather. And there's another company called tug, allow you to you know, really get your film. It's all these cool disruptive distribution techniques that where you can get straight to your audience, cut out the middleman, and you get your data, you get the email addresses of all those people who showed up. And then you can market your ancillaries and your other, you know, components to that list. And that becomes a very useful list. So we have the article, we have theatrical on demand, and community screenings. We were also selling DVDs to show in your churches or your yoga studios. And we were just pushing them out on a grassroots level. But this is before the for a massive release on DVD or on an SBS spot right? This is before way before almost one year of this okay. Optical theatrical on demand and community screen ratings. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 43:15
So and then I'm assuming during that process alone, the movie became got into the black. Are you still in the red when you win that final movie before you even got to SVOD?

Peter Rader 43:26
Um, well, it did very well. We're under sort of an NDA. We can't really disclose fair enough. It did. It did very well. It exceeded everyone's expectations. We had 65 markets theatrically 65 markets in North America. We had 350 theatrical on demand screenings. And also overseas was crazy. In seven countries. We were in 50 plus theaters for an indie doc.

Paola Di Florio 43:55
Yeah. So it was an IT mean, we did, it definitely exceeded our expectation, because most documentaries don't really do this kind of numbers in theaters. So you know, we we figured that TV was not going to be probably one of our windows. So we really melt the theatrical and because of the magical work, it really helped with the DVD sales as well, of course.

Peter Rader 44:20
So then, you know, Netflix came around and kick the tires.

Alex Ferrari 44:24
As they do as they do.

Peter Rader 44:27
We it's there's a love hate thing with Netflix and indie filmmakers. I mean, but back then it was it was thrilling to be, you know, in acquisition talks with Netflix licensing talks. What was great though, is that we delayed that deal. We said, you know, we're in no hurry to make that deal. Let's keep showing them the legs that this movie has and between their first offer, and you know, whatever it was a few months later, when we finally closed the deal, they have quadrupled their offer. Netflix had, and what was more important is that they agreed to the following windowing. We said we're gonna do DVDs first, digital second, and Netflix third, and, and even in the DVD deal that we made, we had to deal with Kino lorber. To You know, do brick and mortar DVDs, but we had a co exclusive deal, which is we were allowed to sell our own DVDs to, and self realization fellowship. Yogananda his organization has a whole publishing arm where they sell books and DVDs. So we created a companion book, we created our own DVDs. And we basically began with our exclusive window for one month it was if you wanted to buy the film, you could only buy it from us. Then Kino lorber kicked in, then digital, then Netflix, super smart guys.

Paola Di Florio 45:51
Had help from people like Peter Broderick, you know, we have consultants that we were working for you

Alex Ferrari 45:56
Because you had you because you had a product that was in demand. So yeah, I mean, this doesn't work for every movie, like, this works for films that have an audience that really want that material. Because like when I heard about it, it was already on I saw, I think the first time I saw it was on Netflix. The first time I ever heard of it, but I could only imagine if I would have known about it prior, I would have probably been like when Can I see it? When can I see it? Where can I see it? Where can I see it when I see? So that kind of want and need by the audience is what makes this kind of platform? Yeah, yeah. Without question now, as far as marketing, did you market on digital? Did you go social media? Did you do big? billboards out? Did you market this to those audiences? That would have been cool, right? Wouldn't that be amazing? Just like driving on like, that we wanted to see Yogananda you know, up on Billboard on Sunset Boulevard just right. Yeah. You went up on our marketing?

Peter Rader 46:54
Well, yeah, I mean, we quickly quickly realized that, you know, this was not a traditional film. And we were going to be connecting with our audience in the sort of disruptive, direct way. So obviously, social media was our main friend here, we did, you know, do a few print ads here and there, but they were mostly strategic partnerships. So for instance, yoga journal, and La yoga was was one of our partners where we said, okay, we had these really good marketing consultants who said, Let's make a creative deal with la yoga. One, let's get them to review the film to let's get in your bio, you know, one page ad in the magazine, same issue that they're reviewing, and three, let's get them to host one of the evenings in LA. So in the cities where we were for while in the film, we would get partner hosts to say, you get the eight o'clock screening, you can do whatever you want with it, you can do a little presentation afterwards. As long as you broadcast your list and fill that house, it's yours. And, you know, by doing that, we basically just guaranteed a bunch of sellouts and got really robust numbers. Yeah. So

Paola Di Florio 48:04
And that's something that has worked also with with some of our clients, our consulting clients, because we, you know, that is something that's kind of your grassroots build, you know, I think if you mobilize, it takes a lot of work to do this kind of stuff. And we don't recommend to people that they do it on their own, it will totally wipe you out and exhaust you, you need a team. And so you have to actually build this into your budget, you know, you need, you know, a few assistants, you need a social media team, you need publicist, you need marketing people, you really need to create, what a distributor would create. And you'd be the difference is that your hand picking it, and you this is your baby, so you're gonna really go the extra mile that your distributor may or may not do if they don't get immediate results. Right. So it's the consistency with which you will shepherd and nurture, you know, your film into the world. That's the idea behind the hybrid distribution model.

Alex Ferrari 49:03
And I think what you mean with this kind of film, it is it is a poster child for self distribution. I mean, it has everything that a self distributed film needs to have in order to succeed because I consult all the time. And a lot of times, they just don't have an audience or know how to get to that audience or have a strategy, you know, and they're just like, well, I'm gonna sell, I'm gonna put up on iTunes, and that's enough. I'm like, No, everybody should have Yogananda in their film. That's, that that is the key. That's the key to every successful film, obviously.

Peter Rader 49:34
I know another thing, Alex is that we had two Facebook pages. One was sort of public facing open page, you know, which started you know, really to mushroom and get a lot of traction. And, you know, our social media team was was really good at sort of organically building a really robust group NACA media, yeah, aka media when and Angela Alston. And the other thing, though, is that we had a private page that was only by invitation and That was for movie captains or anyone who was willing to spearhead a community screening or a gather theatrical on demand screening. And you were only invited into that group after you had, you know, initiated a screening request in your community. And then in that group, we gave you all the kind of secret sauce stuff, you know, like the playbook and the flyers and the templates. And you would also be able to engage with other captains and share secrets and share lists, and hey, you help me promote in this city and I'll help people in that city.

Alex Ferrari 50:29
Do they? Do they get a cut of that? Or is this just pure love?

Peter Rader 50:32
Not not in the gang together, not in the gather, model and tug and tug? in tug, they are given 5%. But in the gather model, it's really just for the love and the bragging rights. You know, having pulled off the screening and stuff in your neighborhood or in your in your town.

Paola Di Florio 50:50
Yeah, I mean, it is a pretty cool thing. If there's a film that isn't going to ever come to your town, and you get to actually host a big party. You know, you just have to get people there. But it's your it's your, you could do what you want. Like they come you can speak to your audience, you can it kind of is your own little personal party.

Alex Ferrari 51:08
Did you guys go on tour with this? No. Because like in the movie in general, did you go to different cities and talk about

Paola Di Florio 51:16
A couple of things here and there. But mostly, we were pretty much delegating it to we did a lot of Actually, you know what, we did do a lot of Skype and zoom calls. With we that we did do but we didn't actually go on tour with all the you know, we just couldn't we were so tired from having done all of this. We will zoom in you know,

Alex Ferrari 51:38
We'll we'll Skype it in guys. That's fine. It's perfectly fine. Now with your so when you release it, you release t VOD first, right? transactional first, then you had your Netflix deal. And that Netflix deal lasted a couple years if I'm not mistaken, the two year deal.

Peter Rader 51:54
And now we're in our second SVOD, which is Gaia as bought it, you know, for a second run of subscription VOD.

Alex Ferrari 52:03
So, and then that's locked up for a few years. And then after and you're still selling DVDs.

Peter Rader 52:07
Yeah. And we're still having theatrical screenings. When, like, two weeks ago, someone said, I want to do theatricals. greevey Lee,

Alex Ferrari 52:16
That's one of those movies that that makes like you want to community you want that that communal experience to watch that kind of movie.

Paola Di Florio 52:22
That's right. And I think that one of the things this is the lesson for, you know, our business because, you know, distribution, you can't distributors, we end we tend to put blinders on and say this is the only thing that will sell, right. But if you do find your own audience, like what we found is that this audience that came to see awake is actually a vast audience all around the world. They are hungry for a certain kind of product that isn't really being produced and isn't being distributed, which is part of the reason why we really wanted to help other films get off the ground in this arena. Because you know, there's there's a there is room for this not only is there room for it, there's a demand for it. So, you know, you just have to find your way into that distribution model and then it all then the rest come.

Alex Ferrari 53:16
No, and you guys that create ancillary products, which I purchased the book goes on, I definitely purchase the book. I love the companion book. I haven't bought a companion book, and God knows how many. I think the matrix was. wasn't cheap. That was nice of you know, yeah, no, is it because I just loved the movie so much. And I was like, I want something else. I my daughter's got it for me for Christmas last year. And how did you guys go about that? It was because of through Self Realization company that they had their arm and they had their marketing to do it.

Peter Rader 53:48
I think also it was actually inspired by you, I believe, you know, the Washington Post gave us this really juicy quotable little line which it said that Pamela and Lisa were masters of atmospherics that they were masters of atmospherics, and we realized that there was sort of a quality, this magical realism thing. You know, that was in the movie. And there was a monastic and self realization fellowship, who was kind of a Photoshop whiz. And he just started doing these page layouts, which was capturing the feeling of the film, you know, in this in this other form. And we realized, boy, there's a making of a book here, we can basically have the transcript of the film. Then we wrote some, you know, introductory essays and some sort of epilogue, epilogue essays, you know, to sort of bookend it, and it became this kind of beautiful product.

Alex Ferrari 54:40
He did an amazing I mean, yeah, it's a beautiful book. It's a stunning, stunning good coffee table book. It was really well done and did it do well? Did you guys sell a lot of books very well? Oh, that's amazing. Could you like you said it's not cheap. It's not a cheap gift. And then one other thing I want to talk about, about the sound a soundtrack of the movie because you actually sold this soundtrack. But when I'm listening towards the end, I'm like, is that Alanis Morissette? Like, how did they get a lot more set for this? How did you get a lot of stuff to do to get the rights of that movie?

Paola Di Florio 55:12
Oh, amazing, thank you, alumnus. She, I mean, she just, she had given me a song of hers, and in one of my prior films, and I'd written to her and, you know, she was like, I'm not really sure how you see that being used. But you know, she gave it to me anyway. And I used it. And I think in the end, it just was just worked so perfectly. And with this, I just remember I was going on walks, going on walks, and listening to all kinds of music that would spark something for the movie. And that that song still is so

Alex Ferrari 55:48
beautiful. I remember when it came out, it was

Paola Di Florio 55:50
So beautiful, and she is so you know, deeply attuned to these teachings. And, um, you know, it's in, it's in all of her music. I mean, she is like, a teacher of her in her own right. And I think she's actually teaching, you know, spiritual giving, giving conferences and, and, and she's a spiritual teacher, right. So I think that she understood the connection with the film she gave, she was just generous.

Alex Ferrari 56:20
And yes, but you just wrote a letter originally, you just wrote a letter to her and said, Hey, wrote a letter. And you know, a little persistence, we also got, we also got it number one, tap in like that.

Peter Rader 56:33
I mean, and then we also got, you know, a number one hit single from George Harrison, Olivia Harrison, you know, was generous enough to give us the use of Georgia song and, you know, that's kind of a one two punch at the end of the film, which is, you know, in still, she's kind of singing from the point of view of God's singing down to humanity, which is I love you still no matter what you do, no matter all these things, you mess up. I love you still. So here's that singing down to humans. And then you know, we go our end credits we have this exalted give me love give me peace on earth man singing up to God, you know, so beautiful. Those those two songs back to back.

Paola Di Florio 57:10
Yeah. And still also has the just the metaphor of stillness, you know, in all of it, too. So it's still it's the persistence and the perseverance of that sort of self realization, but it's also just, you know, you find it in stillness, you know, so, and it's funny now that you mentioned it, I realized that I actually kind of stopped her I went to a new she was, ya know, I'm remembering now that wisdom 2.0 at the conference, we were giving away those autobiographies. She was on the she was one of the speakers. And so I six degrees of separation had a connection through my friend Nell to allow this and, you know, no, it was like giving her giving her the, the, you know, it was like a little connective tissue to her at wisdom. 2.0 where, you know, she texted me and said, Come say, Hi, I'm, I'm leaving. Now she left from her thing. I had to catch her, like in her limo on her way out just to say hello. Nice. Since the deal.

Alex Ferrari 58:09
That's awesome. That's awesome.

Peter Rader 58:11
That's the thing about still is that, you know, one of the monastics who was part of the film team is actually you know, cureton singer, and he just loves music. And it's very steeped in traditional classical Indian music. And he pointed out the fact that that song is actually in a traditional rock form, that it is in Iraq. I forgot the name of the rod. But, you know, he she used she was clearly influenced by India. Yeah, no, that's

Alex Ferrari 58:38
Amazing. No, so what's up, Next, what's next for you? Guys?

Peter Rader 58:42
This is a good one.

Paola Di Florio 58:42
Well, we that, that I mean, the movie was made and released in 2014. We've worked on anything since then. And we are working on a big project right now. That's a piece and and music festival in India in Rishikesh, India, and it will have documentary component to it, and a live stream and it will hopefully, be another uplifting focal point.

Peter Rader 59:13
That's awesome. It's called come together. It's in honor of commemorating the Beatles going to India 50 years ago, and how they move the needle and shifted the paradigm for so many of us, you know, just open those doors to kind of a new way of thinking.

Alex Ferrari 59:29
I mean, know, when the Beatles went over there, I did absolutely. Like, you know, because you had the biggest band ever introduce you to a whole new world, in many ways, their career, peak of their career.

Paola Di Florio 59:41
And I think that idea is that, you know, if they had everything right, they had reached the pinnacle of success and for them wasn't really enough. And so, it was the idea that, you know, finding another way to explore our purpose. In life and finding balance in life, so it's really putting a focal point on how to live on the planet.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:07
That's awesome. And I'm gonna ask you a few questions I asked all my guests. First one is what advice would you give a filmmaker wanting to break into the business today?

Peter Rader 1:00:18
Jump in your phone, you know, these days, the meet the means the barrier to entry have disappeared, you can edit it on your laptop, you can shoot it on your phone, jump in, start Do it, do it and see if you really want to do it. Because it takes a huge amount of work. So, so figure it out, figure it out by doing it. And the other one is, don't go to film school.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:43
Especially in at Harvard film, school, I mean, seriously,

Peter Rader 1:00:46
Waste all that money on film school, learn about life, study philosophy, join the Merchant Marine, that's what john used to know. He said, join the Merchant Marine, you want to be a filmmaker, go visit, you know, learn learn about the world. And then you can figure anyone can figure out how to make a film.

Paola Di Florio 1:01:00
And I think for me, it's it's, um, you know, there's so much emphasis now, in the result, the result? The result? The result? And I think it's really impacting process. And I just, you know, I just think that, you know, I'm looking to young filmmakers to find a new language to find new stories to, you know, really break the mold here. And I just think that, you know, don't, don't be result oriented. Let the process if you're drawn to filmmaking, it's because you're really needing to have expression and a voice and you have something to say, so have something to say. That's kind of where I put it put the focus and having something to say,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:45
Now can you tell me the book that had the biggest impact on your life or career?

Paola Di Florio 1:01:49
Hmm. Interesting. I mean, I don't know about if I could say it had an impact on my career, but a book that has always stayed with me as The Grapes of Wrath. I just wow. By Steinbeck. Yeah, of course, the journey, that it talks about a path for a metaphor for the path of life. Um, you know, it just was such a journey of survival, and love, and finding a way forward, finding a way forward with such elegance and grace and depth. So that that movie has always stuck with me. That movie that that book, I actually haven't seen the movie. Right, but the book really stuck with me. And I don't know if it influenced my filmmaking, but it influenced me as a person. So of course, it influenced my filmmaking.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:49
How about you, Peter?

Peter Rader 1:02:51
Um, you know, I'm just going to plug I'm so sorry to do this. But I'm going to plug my book. I have a book out right now, to look at the gods.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:58
What's it called? What's it called?

Peter Rader 1:03:00
It's called playing to the gods. And you know, I spent the last three to five years on it. It actually started as a script. It's got a long story. But anyway, it's a book. Now it's on out from Simon and Schuster. And it's about the birth of modern acting. A great rivalry occurred about 100 years ago, the theater between these two icons. One is Sarah Bernhardt, the great actress of the 19th century, who acted from the outside in, she acted by imitation, there were books, there are manuals that showed you how to pose on any given line. And then there was this sea change, which is we needed to figure out the original way of acting, which is inspiration from inside out, and this other actress Eleanor dusa, kind of rediscovered original acting, and they had this intense rivalry that went on for decades. They stole each other's plays and lovers and all sorts of things that did a great job. It was make a good movie. It's being it's being adapted as we speak.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:56
Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Paola Di Florio 1:04:04
Love myself

Alex Ferrari 1:04:06
Oh, that's a good one. We beat ourselves up a little bit too much sometimes.

Paola Di Florio 1:04:11
Yeah, it's just that it's the it's the thing that these teachings have really transformed. in me, which is just to, you know, surrender and to allow, and that has a lot to do with loving yourself.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:31
How bout you, Peter?

Peter Rader 1:04:32
I would say yeah, and well kind of related to that kind of get get out of the way. Get out of the way. You know, let it happen without the ego, you know, like, that's, that's, that's a tricky one. I'm still working on that one.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:49
And the toughest question of all three of your favorite films of all time?

Peter Rader 1:04:55
Well, I always begin with the Godfather. It's still It's still on my list. What else do we have? You know, I grew up in Italy. So I'll go to Bethel Lucci, you know, 1900 or certainly some of the Fellini movies that were so influential. You know, I'm record Rama Casanova. I've seen the mall and just amazing filmmaker.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:22
How about you Paola?

Paola Di Florio 1:05:24
Well, uh, two documentaries that really had an imprint on me where Chrome and

Alex Ferrari 1:05:30
Chrome love Chrome,

Paola Di Florio 1:05:32
And Harlan County, USA.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:34
Oh, yeah, that's a good movie.

Paola Di Florio 1:05:37
And, and, you know, I would say The Princess Bride.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:43
What a classic movie. Oh, that movie. so wonderful. And then where can people follow your work and follow what you guys are doing?

Peter Rader 1:05:54
Our website is thisiscounterpointfilms.com, okay. Because there's another counterpoint films in Ireland.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:03
This is

Peter Rader 1:06:07
And we got

Paola Di Florio 1:06:08
We have a newsletter. And so you know, that's the that's the best place. If you sign up for my newsletter, we don't send many out. So it won't be annoying. But that's that's the best way to

Alex Ferrari 1:06:20
Guys, thank you so much for taking the time out to talk to the tribe today and really share your process, and a little bit of Yogananda, his wisdom with with everyone. So thank you again, so much.

Paola Di Florio 1:06:30
Thank you so much for the opportunity.

Peter Rader 1:06:32
It was a pleasure.

Paola Di Florio 1:06:34
It was a pleasure.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:35
They truly are an inspiration. Peter and Paola. Thank you so so much for being on the show and dropping some major knowledge bombs on the tribe today. If you want to get links to anything we discussed in this episode, head over to indiefilmhustle.com/283. We'll put links to them how to contact them, as well as links to the video podcast on IFH.TV, and of course links to awake the life of Yogananda and if you guys have not watched this film, it is worth your time. It is one of my favorite documentaries I've ever seen. I watch it every few months. That's how much I love this thing. It is really, really great. It does give you a great introduction to who Yogananda was his teachings and what what he did for for the world. It's pretty remarkable, honestly. But it's a great documentary, and not religious or anything like that. Just pretty cool ideas that he talked about. So if you haven't already, please head over to indiefilmhustle.tv check out what we're doing over there. It's amazing stuff that we've got going on this month. releases were about 30 hours and it was crazy amount of stuff that we put out there. And we're going to be putting more and more stuff. I just got some big stuff coming. I got some big announcements come in this month. I just cannot wait wait, wait to tell you what's coming up. So thanks again for all the support guys. And as always, keep that also going. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 279: How to Self Distribute Your Niche Indie Film with Brad Olsen

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Today’s guest is returning champion Brad Olsen, director of the documentary Off the Tracks. This time we discuss his misadventure in distribution. After meeting over 40 traditional distributors Brad decided the best path for his film was self-distribution. I’ve always said that self-distribution is not for everyone but with Off the Tracks it makes perfect sense.

We discuss how he got the word out of his film, got in the press that was in his niche and how he engaged with the audience he was trying to reach. We talk numbers, successes, and failures. It’s a pretty eye-opening interview. So if you are thinking of self-distributing your indie film take a listen to this episode first.

Enjoy my conversation with Brad Olsen.

Alex Ferrari 0:07
So today on the show, we welcome back Brad Olsen, the writer, director of the hit documentary about Final Cut Pro X off the tracks. Now the reason I'm bringing them back is we just had him on last episode to talk about how he made the movie and about Final Cut Pro and all that stuff. But today's episode is strictly about his misadventures in distribution, and how he was able to self distribute this film, and how he was able to focus his very niche movie and reach his niche audience and how he's been able to do it. We talk numbers, we talk marketing strategies, how we got the movie out there, and so much more. So this is a really interesting conversation. And he learned a lot of lessons along the way, including talking to 40 distributors, and why he decided not to go with a traditional distributor. And like I've said before, traditional distribution has its place without question. Self distribution is not for everybody. It's not for every film, but it made sense for this film because of its nature. So sit back and enjoy my conversation with Brad Olsen. I'd like to welcome back to the show. Brad Olsen, man. Thank you for coming back, brother.

Brad Olsen 3:03
Yeah, it's great to be here one week later.

Alex Ferrari 3:07
One week later, for the audience, it might be a little bit different. But yeah, no, I wanted to have you back. Because we we had a deep conversation about Final Cut Pro X and all things editing. Last time we spoke and there was a huge chunk of your story that we just couldn't get to, which was self distribution and how you got it out into the world. So first question is, what kind of distribution plan? Did you even think about when you start off the tracks? Or did you even think about distribution?

Brad Olsen 3:37
That's a great question. So initially, when I had the idea, I actually, you know, I, in my head, I was envisioning everything from a simple just throw, throw something, store some episodes up on Vimeo for free. To what if I, you know, got this up on iTunes and everything else? So I wasn't really sure I wanted, I really wanted to figure out what the quality of the content and the demand of the of what this content would be, before I necessarily locked myself into a plan. In fact, actually, I was having a conversation last week with somebody in New York, who, who was talking about how he's looking at everything I've done to promote my movie, and he's like, wow, you just had it all figured out. And I'm like, actually, I've kind of been feeling my way, step by step. Right. This wasn't, this wasn't something that was like a total masterplan from the front. Although I did imagine a lot of things and I kind of, I kind of thought, okay, if I want to get here, like, let's reverse engineer what I need to do today. So the ultimate pie in the sky dream was Let's get it on iTunes. Let's get it maybe on Netflix, which hasn't happened yet. But let's, let's see where we can get it. And if I'm going to do that, what do I have to do today to get it there? And you know, if it doesn't, if it turns out there isn't the demand or I don't get the Quality I want from it that I think there's some at least some interesting little. Again, throughout the interviews or episodes, little episodes on Vimeo was kind of my fallback plan. Okay, so that was what was in my head at the time when I very, very first started.

Alex Ferrari 5:13
So you just kind of thinking, you actually were you had no idea. Honestly.

Brad Olsen 5:18
I didn't know. I didn't know what it would do. I just knew that I had to start. And I tried to point my ship in the direction that would hopefully land. It's like Columbus trying to discover the New World, you know?

Alex Ferrari 5:31
So then, so after you, obviously have associated itself with Columbus. No. So at what point did you say, Okay, this is going to be a feature film. And I'm going to try to sell it and try to, you know, get it out there in the world as a documentary feature.

Brad Olsen 5:51
So I had already shot interviews at the Final Cut Pro 10 creative summit, which is an annual event that's held in Cupertino, Apple headquarters. And I'd shot like 20 interviews there, I went to LA and shot some more interviews. At that point, I was like, still kind of leaning towards the, I'll make like 615 minute episodes, and they'll go up on Vimeo route. And then, one day as I was posting about it on a Facebook group, a guy named Noah kavner, who runs an organization called FCP works, reached out and said, Hey, have you interviewed anybody from Apple for your documentary? And I'm like, I hadn't met a couple people at the creative summit. But I said, No, I haven't. Like they can't go on record is like, Well, what about Randy, and he was referring to Randy, you, billows. And Randy, you billows is the guy I think I mentioned on the last episode that invented premiere, and Final Cut in the 90s. And then went on to do like aperture and iMovie and Final Cut Pro 10. And Randy had retired in 2015. So actually, he's somebody that could be in the documentary because he wouldn't have to get permission from Apple to be in it. But he's also a guy that travels the world constantly. And I don't know him. And I didn't really know anybody who could put me in contact with him. However, here's the funny part of that story is in this Facebook group. Randy's actually a member of it is like this secret Final Cut group. And he's a member of that group. He's never posted, to my knowledge, anything in this group at all. But I have the option to tag him. And I thought, well, let's just let's just see what happened. So I said, I don't know. I don't know how to get ahold of Randy. And then, and I tagged him I'm like, but I'm would would love to interview him. Well, he messages back, not that like minutes later, he messages back and gives me his email. And I was just blown away. And that's when I went to interview him. And I realized that okay, this is no longer just the final cut communities story about Final Cut Pro 10. We've got the man in the film, this probably has some value. Let's run a Kickstarter and see where that takes us.

Alex Ferrari 8:20
Okay, so yeah. And I'll translate this for the audience. So basically, you were doing market research, when you didn't even know you were doing market research. But pretty much to the point where like, well, now you're very cautious and conservative on the way that you went through this process. No, because most filmmakers are just like, screw it. Let's do it. Let's cash out. Let's get a mortgage on the house. Let's do this. And just roll the dice. But you were very methodical and conservative in the way that you were kind of rolling this out. And you're like, Okay, well, I think we have something. Let's try to do a Kickstarter to see you wanted to test the waters of your of your niche audience. And this is obviously a very niche film. It's a niche of a niche of a niche. And it's not a large audience, but yet it is a large. It's not a large audience compared to the like the rest of the world. But

Brad Olsen 9:12
It's a it's a it's a small audience, but they're spread out globally, which is interesting.

Alex Ferrari 9:18
We'll talk about that in a little bit. All right, so now your Kickstarter campaign.

Brad Olsen 9:22
Yeah. So no Academy who had was the one who suggested I interviewed people at Apple here. He also lives in San Francisco. So does Randy. So he went with me to the interview. And he was actually the one who pitched the Kickstarter and said, I'm willing to help you out with this. So because he's in he'd actually i'd shown Randy the first opening 15 minutes of the film as I had it at that point, which is kind of a hard part of the film, I think for him to watch because it is just all about the lousy rollout rollout of the product, but Randy was gracious and he was, you know, didn't say didn't rip up the release form. There. Noah saw that and he's like, I think you've you've got some quality here I think you got something of value. So let's let's run a Kickstarter and see what where it goes. Again, you talked about being conservative, I was actually even conservative with the Kickstarter, I, I decided to reach out to two people who are like software trainers and plugin developers and podcasters and, and things that were in the final cut community that kind of that made their living based off of people buying Final Cut Pro 10 related stuff. And I committed them, you know, to like, put in $1,000 each. Some of them put in some more, like motion. VFX was a huge supporter of it.

Alex Ferrari 10:47
You were getting sponsors for this, or

Brad Olsen 10:49
I was getting sponsors before saying, Hey, we're thinking about doing a Kickstarter, if we did a Kickstarter, would you be willing to put in 1000 or $2,000. And, and based off of that, we're like, okay, we definitely got nine or 10 people willing to throw in money. Let's ask for $10,000 we know we can make it

Alex Ferrari 11:09
We literally have 10,000 sitting waiting, let's just open up a Kickstarter for 10,000 or

Brad Olsen 11:14
10,000. And, and I also was thinking, you know, I've shot almost everything I'm editing this myself, sure, you know, maybe some money to get a score, pay a lawyer or something. I don't know, like, let's just,

Alex Ferrari 11:28
You were doing it more for market research than you were for the money.

Brad Olsen 11:31
Yeah, and and it's like this was more about raising awareness that there is a Final Cut Pro 10 documentary The other thing that we did previously to launching the Kickstarter, and this was again, kind of know as marketing brain at work, and him kind of guiding me was, let's do a trailer. So, so I put out a trailer. And I like on Facebook got like 30,000 views, and got 200 something shares, and then got like 20,000 views on YouTube. And then and then we got all these like Final Cut and Mack blog sites writing about it. And saying there's gonna be this documentary is gonna be documentary. So that kind of all was the preamble to Okay, now let's do the Kickstarter. So when we did the Kickstarter, the first day now I mentioned that I had some people like lined up. And of course, there's not like written contracts, or, in fact out, but just got that feel. And, and we made the $10,000 in a day. And actually, most of that money did not come from my sponsors, which that surprised me really was like, Wow, so the trailer was effective. And once the Kickstarter, like, Hey, we have a Kickstarter now, you know, I'd already kind of warmed up everyone up and primed them. And then we can add some more sponsors kind of came on board, but we actually doubled that and got the $20,000 by a weekend. And then by the end of it, we were at $26,000. And that was really overwhelming for me, because it kind of showed that hey, this little thing that you've been doing, you know, basically started out with maxing out a business credit card. That's all there was, you know, a couple grand or whatever shirt in the bank. Now Now there's, there's obviously some people that are willing that want to see this. But the other thing that comes along with that is the the terror of Oh my Hell, I have to actually make this movie. Like I have to really do this because now I've got like 200 people that are sitting there saying, hey, when's the movie coming out? Hey, when are we gonna get?

Alex Ferrari 13:46
And how much? How much did you finally raise? $26,000 You know what, man $26,000 for a movie about Final Cut Pro X is not bad at all.

Brad Olsen 13:56
No. And I thought if there's if there's this many people that are willing to put in this much money now, then we you know, we can this is something that we can get out there on platforms and sell. I'm not expecting to make you know, tons of money off of it. But I think the last episode I talked to you when you said Well, I made a movie about this. And I'm like, Well, you know, final cuts, kind of has a message that I'm passionate about and want to get out there and I want to get my own name out there. So there was lots of motivations for me to want to do this not just make a bunch of money. But you know, I The fun thing about self distribution and doing this process is also just seeing can it be done? Can you make a low budget movie? And you know, proving to myself Is it possible to make make this kind of a thing that that I could repeat and do again and maybe do a little bit bigger next time?

Alex Ferrari 14:50
Well, I mean, your story so far is a perfect candidate for for self distribution. Like if you would have reached out to as a consultant, I would have said, Absolutely yes. Because it makes the most sense in the world. And you were in a very similar place than I was with my first feature, this is mag where I was walking in, in the black, like I, the movie, I was, I was already shooting the movie when I started my crowdfunding campaign. And by the time, you know, we didn't, we didn't even make that much money. We made I think, 15 or $16,000. And I was like, Well, great, now we can, you know, get real big sound design done and all this other stuff. But I was in the black. So the moment I released it, I was already in the positive, so you have nothing to lose. And that's, that's the best place to be obviously, if you can't be,

Brad Olsen 15:46
Right, no, with any product, um, houses didn't sell my car, nothing crazy, you know?

Alex Ferrari 15:50
Correct. It's always it's a perfect candidate for the film. And because it's such a niche audience, and it's, it's a niche audience, but you tapped into the larger niche, which is Mac, Mac, the Mac world. Yeah. And the Mac followers, and those because those guys are crazy. And that's a large, I'm one of them. I drank the Kool Aid A long time ago. But, but that or that part, that kind of fan base for Mac is a huge sub genre or subculture. And out of those there was, you know, a smaller culture, they even cared about Final Cut Pro, but that is still a good a good market to tap into now. So now you have the movie, you're going to go out to distribute it. How did you choose the platforms that you did?

Brad Olsen 16:35
Well, actually, I'm going to back up a little bit, because you mentioned like the the plan, from there kind of evolved to Should we try to see, like, I'm still testing the water. You want to believe me? You still don't believe? Yeah, well, I wanted I wanted to self distribute. But I also wanted to, I wanted to see if there was some magical partnership, or distributor out there that got this movie and thought that they could, you know, sell it. And I wasn't I didn't want to take any deals that were definitely no deals that were going to be like you have to pay money up front or stupid things like that. But I was curious, because I'd never been down this road of distribution, if there was somebody so we actually started reaching out to a lot of distributed distribution companies. That should be amazing.

Alex Ferrari 17:25
Tell me, tell me what they tell me. Tell me what they said. Oh, please. Please tell me what they said. When you call up and say, Hey, I have a documentary about Final Cut Pro X. And I want to hear the crickets on the other line. I want to hear what they said, sir.

Brad Olsen 17:41
Well, here's the funny thing. Most people never replied. Not surprising. The ones that did, yes. said, hey, you've got a great documentary. It does not fit our catalog. Okay. It does. We don't know how to sell this. Okay, I got really, in fact, actually, well, well, so that I kind of was going through that for a few months ago. Just trying to figure out if there was but yeah, they definitely didn't get it. And I that did not surprise me. Well, again, feeling my way I just wanted to see. I was curious. Would somebody offer me 10,000 $15,000 or $30,000 for the movie? Would they have one you know then and I felt like mostly I just wanted help with the the legal clearance stuff and the end the whole getting it out on different platforms? I'm not looking for like, definitely no, no, I have no ambition to do any sort of theatrical distribution right broadcasting didn't make any sense to me. But you know I wanted to get it on there I'd never done it and and I didn't approach it's not like all the distributors I approach were like big time distributors. But yeah, they're definitely. I mean, it's funny because actually, one of the distributors I never heard back from these guys, but they distributed a movie about Compaq in the 80s and you know, that's like super niche and no one cares about it. So I watched it and it was similar to mine

Alex Ferrari 19:18
I actually saw that I saw that documentary actually one of those

Brad Olsen 19:21
I like it, but I'm just saying it's kind of it's you know, and then what's funny about the documentary is they have to constantly like compared to Apple, which I'm like if they made this documentary in the 90s they wouldn't even breathe a word about viral but there may be a little bit about Apple but right is mostly because the time it was made. So anyway, I I tried to reach out to a lot of those people. But the crazy thing that happened, actually this year is around namb is right before I will I decided okay, I promised my Kickstarter backers and advanced download of the movie. So I put it up on THX I'd been running pre sales on VHS and as a way to kind of keep the Kickstarter thing going, you know, like generating a little bit more money. And, and then I will, I was going to release it to just them. And according to the documentation, there was a way to kind of release your movie to people before making it available for sale. But then, when I actually went to click those buttons, it didn't work. And I had to make the movie available for sale in order to send it to my Kickstarter backers. Sure. And so I'm like, I'm gonna be real quiet about this, I'm just gonna post a thing on Kickstarter, just a private message, or update and, and I'll just send it to them. Well, they started sharing it with me immediately, hey, it's up, it's for sale. Like I did no publicity and that like, and it was for sale for like, a day or so. And we were like, raking in hundreds of dollars, you know, nothing glamorous, but still, like, I think we ended up there was like, on sale for one week, and we made like, $3,000 in that or maybe was like 20 $500 in that week. Okay. And, and without me like, announcing it officially on Facebook, or sending out a newsletter, or just to my 200 Kickstarter backers that were like, excited about it. And during that time, that's when after, like, a couple months, one distributor distributor in particular, all of a sudden was like, hey, wait, wait, wait. I really want to help you guys sell, like distribute this movie. And I have this plan and whatever. But in order for us to talk, you got to stop sales. No. And I was like, absolutely, you literally have to stop sales. I was like, this is just a talk worse? Well, because he had a relationship with a bigger company. And he and he was so excited. He was a sales rep. He's actually theatrical distributor that works with other distributors to get things out on other platforms and whatnot. So he we told them that we'll we're not interested in theatrical. So he's like, that's cool. I've got a relationship with this company, actually a pretty big company that I was like, he's like, I'm really good friends with this guy there. And I'm like, Okay, um, I spun it a little bit. Because I realized that the thing that worried me the most is, if I stopped sales, are the people who already bought it, are they going to not be able to have access anymore? Well, it turns out on VHS, you can you can stop sales, and they still have access. So that was relief. I was actually I have actually a couple producing partners on this. I'm being very candid with you. By the way.

Alex Ferrari 22:48
If no one else is listening, it's fine.

Brad Olsen 22:51
But we were actually kind of in panic mode at the time, because it was like, how do we say this? Without being like, without this looking like a big disaster? Like, we don't know what the heck we're doing, and which we kind of didn't. And, and it actually worked really well. We did a little blog post we spent it is Hey, good news. We're we have a distribution deal in the works. And but in order to do that, we have to stop sales on this platform. But don't worry, you still have access to this you. We made everybody who bought it. And the Kickstarter, people feel very special. And actually, even in the again, actually going back to this conversation with a guy in New York. He was like, I was one of the guys who got it in March. Like he felt really special.

Alex Ferrari 23:36
No, those are called the super fans. Those are super fans. Yeah, there's there's fans, and then there's like early adopters, and those kind of people, those are the ones you want because they're the ones who are going to spread the word. And that's exactly what happened.

Brad Olsen 23:50
So we kind of we kind of we pulled it, you know, and then and then we waited and I was at nav when we finally heard back that they you know, said what everybody else said they're like, well, now we're gonna pass like, a really good job so ridiculous. And I'm like, Well, thanks a lot for giving me like, heart palpitations and stuff.

Alex Ferrari 24:10
So now Yeah, so back on on Vimeo

Brad Olsen 24:13
So well. At that point. We were talking to my Corton with the Los Angeles creative pro user group, about doing a Los Angeles premiere. So and that was going to be like Originally, I wanted that a little sooner, but he had people lined up, he had my back manager coming and other people lined up for his meetings. So we were going to we were having that set up in June. And I also decided this would be a good time to maybe take care of some clearance stuff that I maybe hadn't done up to that point. One of those things being like I talked to a lawyer and everything has everything had passed the initial kind of science fair use test. Yeah, this sniff tests. But there was one clip in particular, he was like, Ah, you know, why don't I was using the clip from the Conan show? Yeah. And, and arguably, it could be fair use, but I didn't have somebody in the documentary saying, you know, Conan even made fun of it or something if I had somebody who had actually said, like, had set up the clip, Uh huh. And then shown it that can count from my understanding getting not a lawyer, but my understanding was, that could count as fair use. But I didn't have that I just had the quote unquote. So he said, Why don't you just reach out to the people at Conan? And I'm sure they, you know, they won't really care, whatever. I don't know why he said that, but kind of bad advice.

Alex Ferrari 25:50
Never ask for forgiveness, not for permission.

Brad Olsen 25:53
Right. Right. So but but it's true. I found like some I found the Conan press releases. And I found a PR guy for Conan. And so I emailed them, and I told them a little about what I was doing. And he forwarded it directly to Jordan szalinski, who's the associate producer on the show, and if you ever watched Conan, yeah, you know who he is. He's definitely comes off as a weirdo and a lot of sketches. And I was like, holy crap, this George Lansky, and he's, and he's, like, fill out this form. So I fill it out. And he was pretty cool. But he was like, like he when he got back to me. And this was kind of holding me up a little bit. Just like getting it out on sale and everything. And then he finally got back to me. And he said, Well, it looks like you want, you know, in perpetuity, which is, unfortunately, our most expensive license. But if you think he's the geek broadcast world, I'm like, Dude, this is a documentary that's going to be out there. I can't like cut the segment out later. I mean, I guess it kind of could have but um, so I don't know any other way to do it. He was he said, if you just want to do for festivals, and whatever, we can license the clip for $500. And then with the understanding that once you get your full distribution in place, that, you know, you'll pay the full amount which he quoted me as $12,000 for like 14 or 15 seconds of Conan. Christ. Well, okay. And here's, here's the funny thing. I talked to a buddy of mine who works in documentaries, and he's made documentaries for like, discovery in a&e and things like in and things like that. And he said, and Smithsonian and he's like, okay, Brad, Walter Cronkite costs half that much. Freaking Cronkite data is like, it is not worth it. Not only did I not have the money, but it just was not worth paying that much for the quote unquote, lose the lose the 15 seconds of the film.

Alex Ferrari 27:51
I would agree with you. Yeah. So I would agree with him too. I just that doesn't make a whole lot of financial sense.

Brad Olsen 27:58
And he's like, even if you had $100,000 set aside for just licensing, this clip wouldn't be worth it. Now, of course, I could go the route of trying to do the clearance thing, but it just it seemed easier to just lose 15 seconds. Got it. Got it. So so I had that done. Right. Then I was like, Okay, let's get this thing for sale. Now. We've, this was the last thing in question. We've, you know, we've got everything else cleared. So let's just let's just get this show on the road. So there was about a month, June, I did the LA showing. And actually, we invited Rob ash to that showing, but he couldn't make it. He had to go home and watch some kids or something. I really wish he could have made it because we actually at that point has still had the code and clip in there. And then I and then I just once I heard back, which was after that screen, Rex thing was right before. That's when I started kind of prepping this July 24 release. Yeah. 24th. And that was VHS, and back on VHS. And then I wanted to like show that I had been doing something in this time period. So I also had gotten some, I think had been working on some captions in the meantime, like cheer sharing language such as Amazon, which, if you My understanding is if you go through an aggregator you can release some more territories on Amazon, but if you don't, you can still release through the US, US and UK. That's it right. And actually, Germany isn't on there.

Alex Ferrari 29:31
It was it wasn't sure if it's there anymore. You might have gotten in Germany, but they don't allow it anymore. I don't think I was just talking to those guys think Germany and Japan. Were the other two. Yeah,

Brad Olsen 29:41
Japan was kind of weird because you had to burn in the subtitles from what I was reading. Anyway, this is all this nerdy stuff. But the fact is, I could get it without paying for an aggregator at this point. I could get it on Amazon. I had also at the same time, been waiting to hear back from an aggregator. I'd submitted stuff to an aggregator for iTunes. But they hadn't assigned me a sales rep. And so I finally in July, like after a month of waiting to hear back, I wrote in their support, and I said, Hey, what's the deal? Where's my sales? rep, I want to get this show on the road. So I didn't have the iTunes stuff set up, set up in time. But by that point, people were like, emailing me daily. And messaging. Where's the movie? When can I see the movie? So, got it. I didn't want to lose that momentum. And that excitement.

Alex Ferrari 30:31
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. And then you really see you have a theatrical Oh, that you had a screening in LA, you've put it back out on VHS, and then the money starts coming back in. Are you starting to get attention again?

Brad Olsen 30:50
Yeah, so that's like, the that week, the last week of July On va checks I think we made we made about $3,000. Most of it being that kind of the launch day. And of course, I timed that with some articles and things as well coming out on different blogging sites a premium v lb five FCP, co we're just a no film school. We're all sites that were writing about it. To drive sales, and I was trying to get coupon codes out there. It was kind of crazy, because I put a bunch of coupon codes out and hardly anybody, like really shared them. And then even when they were shared, most people weren't using them. But I was like, okay, more money for me. As part of my whole, like, this will be good for, you know, marketing and whatnot. Specifically the bonus feature edition, which was like, which was basically the package I delivered to my Kickstarter backers at a stretch goal, like we'll do extended interviews and stuff and, and so that was because the Kickstarter thing was $25. I left that at $25 $25. But then I had a $5 off coupon for it. So anyway, you

Alex Ferrari 32:07
By the way, you're doing all this by yourself at this point.

Brad Olsen 32:11
Pretty much. I guess I have a couple people that were helping me with like Facebook ads and helping me with some logistical stuff. But you know, when you're seeing most of the posts are written by me and most the, you know, trying to like, in fact, actually the other boring thing I've spent way too much time and I still have to spend more time is like formatting captions and language.

Alex Ferrari 32:31
Fantastic. Which now you could just go to rev calm and do much

Brad Olsen 32:36
I have the transcript and have the translations and stuff. But yeah, Rev. Rev is

Alex Ferrari 32:40
So much easier. Yeah. Dude, dude, it's me for other languages. I think it's three bucks a minute. Just Are you kidding me? That's $20 a minute before?

Brad Olsen 32:52
Well, yeah. And I actually had somebody in Japan, of course, you did reach out to me. And he's like, hey, and he'd gotten the movie back in March. And he's like, I love your movie so much. I've been spending I've been translating it to Japanese. here's the here's the SRT.

Alex Ferrari 33:11
There are, there are there are wonderful human beings on the planet who do things like that? Yeah, fans, man. It's true. It's true. I get stuff like that people do stuff like that. Sometimes for stuff that I do. I was like, wow, God bless, man. That's awesome. Now you were talking a little bit about social media. So how did you? What How did you find where the where your niche audience was? How did you kind of attack and your marketing plans is now you already got the movie out? You already are selling it? And now how did you kind of come up with this marketing plan, a social media marketing plan? And what platforms did you use and so on?

Brad Olsen 33:46
Well, I'm kind of lame in that I'm not an I need to get on other platforms. But I'm not like on Instagram or Twitter. I have fans that are on there that share stuff on there for me, but I don't have an official thing there. Most of what I'm doing is on Facebook. The nice thing though, is because in the years leading up to making this film, I was already part of the Edit communities and the final cut communities and the apple communities on Facebook, and I'm an active member of those I already had.

Alex Ferrari 34:21
You already built in that. Because a lot of times, a lot of people, a lot of times I always tell people when they're going to try to go after an audience you go into where those audiences live. And you'll become part of that audience by hosting and providing value. You've already done that. So you already knew where this audience was living.

Brad Olsen 34:37
Yep. And they were already kind of aware of me and I and and what I was doing, and they've been following the making of process, you know, and I've been updating people on that. And I think that's a good thing, too, is Yeah, sometimes I feel a little guilty of that. I'm sort of just settling, try to sell stuff on there, but at the same time, this is information that they're all interested in writing Now you're providing value. Exactly. And, you know, I'm also always chiming in and helping people out with their editing questions and stuff as well. So it was, you know, it was like you said it was providing some value. And people are definitely always really excited when something when I mentioned some news, or whatever of, Hey, I'm on this podcast, or Hey, and then you got this thing.

Alex Ferrari 35:25
And you were saying that you worked on Facebook ads, the G, did you spend a lot of money? Or did you spend some money on Facebook ads trying to get the word out?

Brad Olsen 35:32
So, um, you know, most of the early stuff has been very viral and shared very well, which was just awesome. I didn't have to spend money. Once we had on sale, we started we've been we've been testing the waters with the Facebook ads stuff, I think in the next month or so. We're going to double down and have more targeted ads. I've got clips lined up, like short video clips from the documentary that I'm gonna start rolling out because video always says better. And I'm paying, obviously for for some ad stuff. So and there's there's a whole back end of building an audience on Facebook, some of it is a little bit creepy To be frank. But that's how Facebook makes its money. And that's how we target people.

Alex Ferrari 36:17
It is kind of creepy. I'll tell you, it's insane how detailed they can get.

Brad Olsen 36:21
Well, you Okay, here's an example of something, again, being very candid. But you can take and I'm not selling anybody's personal information? Of course not that clear. Yes. But you can take an email list. And because those people are on Facebook, you can you can build what they call a look alike audience, it's really easy to do. So I'm not like targeting the people that bought the movie, but it's basically saying, what are their likes and interest for the people that already like your Facebook page? And how do we target people that are like that, that have similar interests, like, and so that's the funny thing, when people think it's cute and fun to like, share their likes and interests on Facebook, or join certain groups or whatever. I'm like, you know, that's fun for you. But this is all data mining for these companies, which is a whole nother rabbit hole benefits. It can it can be working to your advantage. If you're an independent filmmaker, and you're trying to find more people that might be interested in what you're doing. Because you can pay Facebook, to target people in certain regions. Like my case, like, okay, New York, LA, San Francisco, there's probably clusters of people,

Alex Ferrari 37:30
Expensive to market to those people too, isn't it?

Brad Olsen 37:33
Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, but like you said that the nice thing about having a niche niche of just editors is I think it's a lot, you can narrow down a lot of those interests and things

Alex Ferrari 37:47
Very much. Now, how big of a part was the international audience for your film?

Brad Olsen 37:53
So yeah, when you look at when I look at my hits on the website, which is like, actually, the last week has been about 200 views a day. And, and then when you look at purchases of the movie, it's somewhere between 60 to 70%, are not domestic hits and sales. That's amazing. It's It is like, the craziest countries from all over the planet that wow. And you know, I saw a little bit of that when I ran the Kickstarter, and I was having to like mail packages to Israel and Spain and Australia and other places. But, but since the movie has been on sale, it's just been crazy. You know, Europe is obviously a big one. But even Asian countries and other places that I would not have expected hits in the Middle East and in Africa that I'm like, I don't even know how they know about this other than these are people who aren't they have. They're on Facebook, they have Final Cut. And any of the same thing can be said the number one final cut group was actually started by a friend and neighbor of mine, Braden stores, and it's got about 30,000, the final cut pro 10 editors group has over 30,000 people on it. And you can look at that and see is a very international group of people who were using and of course, it is because you know, the the number reported earlier this year, for total installs a Final Cut Pro 10 was 2.5 million. That was I shouldn't say installs. That's actually they they say the term seats, which was explained to me as actual purchases of the app.

Alex Ferrari 39:38
So just probably installed in many more places.

Brad Olsen 39:41
Yes, like you can buy a copy of Final Cut Pro 10. And the license agreement says you can put it on as many Mac's as you own or if you're at a business or school, then you have to have a license per machine because it's a multi user machine, you know, but that being said, there's no actual Physical mechanism to stop you from signing in on your Apple ID and putting it on 100 computers. Sure. So who knows how many people actually use Final Cut, or in what ways they use Final Cut, I'm very interested to know that, because we know they're not using Final Cut Pro 10 very much in Hollywood, per se, but there's this whole global audience of people that are using it for all sorts of things, which I think speaks to the democratization of our craft.

Alex Ferrari 40:27
Without without without question. So yeah, it's it's interesting how it cuz I have listeners from in countries that I'm like, how are you? How did you hear about me? How did you? What do you know, but they don't even speak English there. How are you listening to me, like, I don't understand. But I'm very grateful. And I have, it is interesting that this is a global thing. And you have to look at it as a global thing. Because filmmakers, a lot of times, they just concentrate on the US, they just concentrate on on America as the biggest market. And it is the biggest, but it's not as big as the rest of the world in many ways, specifically, depending on your movie, and, and I think you you unwittingly started seeing that by doing your movie and by using a platform like VHS, which is owned by Vimeo, anybody internationally could buy their, like iTunes, you have to go to territories and Amazon, you have to go to territories.

Brad Olsen 41:27
But with and I was told by the aggregator, you know, it's like to change the, to open up the metadata or whatever is like a $200 base fee. And for each additional language, which I have to do a new poster for. And a description for translated in addition to the subtitles, is another 150 bucks. So if you're trying to get five or six languages, like that adds up really fast. And that's actually the next thing I'm going to be doing on iTunes, but it's like this cost.

Alex Ferrari 41:59
So you are on iTunes, now

Brad Olsen 42:00
I am on iTunes yet. So as bout a month ago, little less than a month ago, we finally once the once I got a sales rep assigned from this aggregator, then the ball really started rolling fast on getting everything prepped for iTunes, there was a lot of learning that I had to do. And honestly, I should have followed your advice. I've gone with distributor. I did not go as distributor distributor initially, and that was only because I was looking at Apple's website, they have under compressor, which is how you make an iTunes Store package. They had like a list of four aggregators that they recommended there. And then and then I also had been, I'd made friends with somebody who was on the iTunes team, but now is moved over, they actually reached out to me at nav and said, hey, let's I work. I work at Apple for iTunes, I want to help you, you know, get your movie up here. Now granted, I probably shouldn't say too much about that, because it wasn't like sponsoring me or whatever. But anyway, he did introduce himself and he he still referred me I went through the regular channels. I want to make that very clear. Yes, he referred me to a list of aggregators. And and on that list of where these, you know, I found some of the same ones. So I ended up picking an aggregator. And anyway, it was just it was the the front end on their website looked very, very clean and upfront, here's the costs. But spray, the back end was kind of a nightmare. And if you'd done it before, now that I've done it, I could go through it easy. But I think this is the interesting thing that speaks to complicated systems is the people who build them. And then the people who use them, just kind of get used to it and don't recognize how bad it is. until somebody who's never done it before it comes in and says oh my gosh, this is like a total nightmare. I just want to get my movie up and compare it to VHS where I'm this is kind of where I was going with all this VHS. I want to add a new language. No problem. I just tack on the subtitles. I can switch them out at any time. Yeah, yeah, it's great. It's great that way, it's gives me full control and I'm not paying anybody to click buttons, I can click myself or is going through an aggregator. Well, they're the ones with the iTunes Connect account account and and I can't, you know have access to any of that. So I have to send them stuff then they have to QC it then they send it back and it's just this whole long joke of a process but I knew I had to get there because I have lots of people writing in and saying well let me know when it's on iTunes.

Alex Ferrari 44:58
Yes, you know, I know look, you made a movie. Got a final cut about an Apple product? for god sakes, you got to be on iTunes. Exactly. It is no, no question about it. No, picking the right aggregator for your needs is extremely important. And it could be as costly as picking the wrong distributor. If you're not careful now has now finally as the as the money is a movie made money is in profit.

Brad Olsen 45:22
Yeah, I mean, I didn't spend very much to make it like so. Are you retiring?

Alex Ferrari 45:27
Are you retiring to the French Riviera off this move?

Brad Olsen 45:29
No, no, no, no, no. So I'm on VH. x. We are close to grossing $10,000. That's awesome. on Amazon, which I haven't done a lot of push to Amazon, mostly because their profit share is not great. And I haven't I haven't unlocked prime yet. I will probably my prime eventually. But yeah, keep it off there till then. Yeah, yeah. But, but it's, I think my half of it is this. So this is kind of the net of it is around like six or $700 is all okay. And then iTunes is actually checked the other day, and it's humming along? Well, it's been up there for about a month, and it's made about two grand.

Alex Ferrari 46:14
Hey, man, that's awesome.

Brad Olsen 46:17
So you know, we're, I, you know, I think the sales keep coming, which is nice. So that and

Alex Ferrari 46:23
It's gonna keep coming in. Because there's I promise you there is not going to be a competition, a competitive film coming out, like the other documentary about, you're not gonna have that problem, like you are the only one in your category. And you are the only person ever to make a movie in that category. So I think you're good for a while. And this movie will probably continue to generate money for you. For for at least the next handful of years. if not longer, depending on how you might have to update it. Eventually, you have to do a sequel to it. Which brings me to my next question. Are you planning a series of documentaries on editing software? Like the avid dock? premiere? DaVinci Resolve doc? Well, and then of course, the Sony Vegas doc. Don't forget that one.

Brad Olsen 47:13
Yeah, we've got we've actually got a great name picked out maybe you and I can co produce this one. It's called back on track. DaVinci Resolve

Alex Ferrari 47:23
Nice. That would be awesome. Back on Track the sequel. Right. That's, that's awesome. That, you know,

Brad Olsen 47:35
I think I think what's interesting, and I kind of wish I'd found an angle. There's so many things to try to pack into dosha into my Doc, but but I actually do think that in a lot of ways, the final cut pro 10 story has a lot of parallels to the avid in the 90s story versus, you know, film based editing because film editors Oh, you said I'm not editing on a computer. That's a toy. And what did they say about Final Cut Pro 10. I'm not editing on that it's a toy. So it's, it's really interesting to to see the parallels there.

Alex Ferrari 48:13
I might be there might be a place for the avid documentary.

Brad Olsen 48:16
There might you know it might be I feel less inspired by avid just because in the last 20 years, I feel like they've just totally stagnated. And yes, the whole film industry has accepted the fact that and they're comfortable with the fact that avid really isn't moving the ball forward in any significant way.

Alex Ferrari 48:33
They just all they do is patch the holes in the ship. No, no, no, no, and I'm not trying to be a dick about it. But it's the truth like I because I've worked with come, you know, worked with avid and I've worked with, you know, studios that work with avid and having to deal with that workflow. And I literally, like I walk into the edit suite, and they're like, they're on Macs that are like 10 years old, because they're the only ones that are completely stable with the software. And that's the only thing so everything is super slow. It can't really run really well. And it's just like annoying as all hell and I know they're more advanced, you know, systems out there, but these are the ones that they were renting. And I feel like every single time there was a problem which was daily, the average guy would come in and like literally just patch a hole in the ship that obviously have leaks and it will drown it will drown eventually it will go under eventually but it there just

Brad Olsen 49:30
Ithat the irony though people like avid it's so stable, so solid. Well, you're paying Yeah, if you're paying hundreds of 1000s of dollars for avid support every year. Yeah, guess you guess it'll be reliable in that sense.

Alex Ferrari 49:43
Or you could download DaVinci Resolve or Final Cut Pro X. I mean,

Brad Olsen 49:46
Yeah, why not do something a little that's that's also reliable but doesn't demand the full attention support, like like you were talking about.

Alex Ferrari 49:56
It's like, it's like buying a really bad car. And then you have have to pay for a mechanic or for a mechanic to live in the back House of your home to make sure the car is running perfectly all the time. And it breaks down daily. So the dude's always working, but the car mechanics fees are another 100,000 plus the car, and they're like, wow, that car is really stable. Sure. You're paying 100 grand for the dude that live in your back? Oh, man, yeah, it this, this whole conversation is gone off off the tracks.

Brad Olsen 50:31
We've got it. We've got off that we've we've we can't help ourselves. We just keep getting back in. I mean, it is something I've been asked like, what about like the Adobe Premiere story and whatnot. And like, it's just for me? I was I'm very passionate about Final Cut Pro 10 Sure, sure. Sure, sure. I'm not so passionate about the other systems. And that's not even about Final Cut Pro 10 per se. I'm just passionate about the idea that a person with no connections with very few resources can go out and make a movie like anything that is gonna empower that and enable that. So you know, you 2003 for me, it was the dv x 100

Alex Ferrari 51:10
No 100 Acer 100. Yeah, the 108 police let's let's keep it straight. Don't forget, there wasn't 100 v. I was about to say there was a B but there was like only weirdos bought the B. Honestly, it was about the A everyone had. I don't want to hear about the B, it was about the A we have gone so off the tracks. everyone listening thought this was a

Brad Olsen 51:34
But it is about like now like I was just shooting 4k 24 frames a second footage of my I just had a kid the other day. We were talking about this before the show. So I had my second daughter earlier this week, and I'm shooting some 4k video on my iPhone that honestly, like is really really good quality

Alex Ferrari 51:57
Just like mom used to do. But definitely Yeah.

Brad Olsen 52:01
So to me, it's like, well, what's You know, there's, there's no more excuses. And that. So I see Final Cut Pro 10 fitting into that, that world. And that's actually when I'm more passionate about Final Cut Pro 10 could be could go away and something else could come about and or in and then there's other tools that could come around, then that's where I'm going to be anywhere that is is going to get rid of the gatekeepers that is going to allow me to connect to my audience or connect to an audience directly. And for us to just have a good time and not be told you can't do it. You know, because that's what I was told when I was a kid growing up. This all goes down to like childhood psychology and drama, which was I wanted to make movies because I saw my heroes George Lucas and Steven Spielberg making movies. And I was told you will never get to do that. So stop dreaming about it. Oh, yeah. Well, I'll show you along that the way you know, we saw all these innovations and things come about so when people react negatively to the message that oh filmmaking has, you know, gotten easier, it's more accessible, it's more powerful. And they're like, No, no, no, no, no, let's keep everything the way it is. And let's keep people out. I'm very, you know,

Alex Ferrari 53:23
That's avid basically is what you're saying?

Brad Olsen 53:24
Yeah, it's 35 millimeter film even though I think 35 million films beautiful. It's a it's a system that requires so much support and resources and resources and money that it represents to me this you know, it's the adult it's the teacher, it's the parent, it's whoever telling 12 year old me Stop dreaming stop, you know at attending

Alex Ferrari 53:49
Bradman I thank you for being raw and honest about your entire distribution process with off the tracks. It was a fascinating story to listen to. You are very candid, and I hope it does help somebody out there listening in whatever country you're listening in. That Hope it helps you guys figure out what's the best path for for you. But Brad, thank you so much for being so honest and forthright with your journey, sir. And of course, thank you for allowing off the tracks to be part of IFH TV.

Brad Olsen 54:24
Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited to see what the tribe thinks of of my movie, hopefully. Hopefully they're positive.

Alex Ferrari 54:32
I think they'll be I think there'll be okay. But and you know, and the same

Brad Olsen 54:37
Feeling feelings. I know that.

Alex Ferrari 54:39
Well, the bottom line is it same thing that you were saying about the gatekeepers and stuff like that. I mean, I'm a dude that's opening up a streaming service, you know, aimed at the audience that I love the most, which are filmmakers, screenwriters, creators, artists. And, you know, I I'm not spending millions of dollars to do it. And I'm able to go out there and do it because of the tools because of the things that are out there to be able to make these things happen. And and you just did a story about one of those tools that really did help a lot of people tell their story. So thanks again, man for being on the show and no more. You're not allowed on for at least 100 episodes. No more conversations with Brad, this is enough to he's more than now, if you come back with an avid movie. You're you're first in line.

Brad Olsen 55:28
We're back on track.

Alex Ferrari 55:29
We're back are back on track with the victories. Oh, that's such a call back with a whole black magic. I think we can make this happen.

Brad Olsen 55:38
I think so.

Alex Ferrari 55:39
Thanks again, Brad.

Brad Olsen 55:41
Yep, thank you, Alex.

Alex Ferrari 55:43
I want to thank Brad for coming back on the show and revealing and being honest and raw about his distribution misadventures on getting the film out there. But if you guys are interested in seeing the film, don't forget it is on indie film hustle TV, it is a great documentary. If you're into editing, post production, or just want to know how Apple royally screwed up one of their product releases to watch that happen live, it is quite fascinating. So definitely check that out. I will put links to everything we discussed in the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com/279. And if you haven't already, please head over to filmmakingpodcast.com. And leave us a good review. It really, really helps to show out a lot and helps us get this information out to more and more filmmakers. So it would be greatly greatly appreciated. And that's it for another episode of the indie film hustle podcast. I hope you guys are doing well. In this holiday season. You got to keep hustling. No matter what guys got to keep pushing, keep writing, keep learning as much as you can. And also, by the way, thank you so much for all the kind remarks of Episode 277, which I revealed my daily routine and has inspired a bunch of you guys out there to wake up at 4:30 in the morning. So do it guys. Keep hustling. And, as always keep that also going. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 271: Going Undercover and Directing for VICE with Natalia Leite

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Today’s guest is writer/director Natalia Leite. This director is one of the bravest filmmakers I’ve ever met. Her work on the VICE documentary Life as a Truck-Stop Stripper was breathtaking. Not only did she direct the piece but one of the subjects in the film as well. Take a look below at her amazing work.

Everyone knows what charming places strip clubs can be, but perhaps there is no club so charming as one in Moriarty, New Mexico—a truck stop with taxidermy and the bras of former employees on the walls, a few poles, a shitload of black light, and plenty of titties. Never mind that The Ultimate Strip Club List website describes it as the place “where strippers go to die.” Natalia Leite and Alexandra Roxo go Gonzo as they pose as strippers and experience something that can be best described as a Marina Abramovic performance crossed with a bizarro episode of Wife Swap directed by David Lynch’s daughters, set in the type of place where a one-eyed guy who shot himself in the head dispenses meditation advice to two naked women.

Natalia Leiteis a Brazilian writer/director. Her work has been described as having “a bracing, assertive style” (Variety), “emotional intelligence and sensitivity” (LA Times), and as “cementing the reign over highly stylized, sexually progressive dramas” (Slant).

Her feature film “M.F.A.”, a psychological thriller centered around rape crimes in a university, premiered at SXSW 2017 and was nominated for a Grand Jury Prize. The film stars Francesca Eastwood and was released in theaters October 2017. Her feature film debut, “Bare,” premiered at the Tribeca Film Festival in 2015, starring Dianna Agron.

The film was released by IFC Films and Paramount Pictures. Natalia has created original content for Vice Media, most notably the provocative Vice show “Every Woman” which has garnered over 11 million views. She co-created and starred in the series “Be Here Nowish,” and has directed and shot documentaries internationally.

Natalia is a contributing writer for Talk House and has been a featured speaker for NY Women In Film & Television, Apple Store Talks, IFP Filmmaker Conference, and numerous Universities. She also directs branded content for Vans, The North Face, Nasty Gal, and other companies. She recently signed with bicoastal production company Humble, her first commercial representation, and directs branded content for Vans, The North Face, and other companies.

Enjoy my conversation with Natalia Leite.

Alex Ferrari 1:39
Now Today on the show we have Writer Director Natalia Leite and she is easily one of the bravest filmmakers I've ever run into. She's a documentary filmmaker as well as a narrative filmmaker and has had film's premiere at South by Southwest and Tribeca and was even nominated for Best Picture at the South by Southwest Film Festival for her film, MFA. She has worked with Vice on multiple projects, one being one of the most interesting things I've ever seen a filmmaker do. And this young filmmaker threw herself into this documentary in ways that I have not seen before, that she actually became not only the writer and director of this, but the subject of the piece. And the film is called life as a truck stop stripper. And Natalia did this for vice and it's been downloaded and watched over 11 million times on YouTube. It is a heart wrenching documentary wonderfully done. And I advise everyone listening to definitely check that piece out among all the things that she's done. But I will put links to all of that in the show notes at the end of the episode. So without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Natalia Leite. I'd like to welcome to the show, Natalia Leite. Thank you so, so much for being on the show.

Natalia Leite 3:06
Thank you, Alex.

Alex Ferrari 3:08
I thank you so much. No, it's it's i was i was shown your work and introduced to you work recently. And I have to say I'm fairly impressed.

Natalia Leite 3:19
Thank you. Yeah, there's a wide range of thing that I've been doing here.

Alex Ferrari 3:23
So before we get into it, how did you actually get started in the business?

Natalia Leite 3:27
So I actually came from a visual arts background, I went to art school, I didn't have proper film education. I thought I wanted to be making visual art and then quickly realized that that maybe wasn't the medium for me. And I started getting into film just just out of my own curiosity and you know, eventually assisting other directors. One thing led to the next started writing my own scripts and just kind of like DIY being scrappy doing it myself and realize that I loved telling stories in this medium. And what was what so you basic that was the the genesis of you wanting to be a director as you just kind of fell into it. Like I really like this, right? Yeah, I fell into it and discovered that I really liked it. Honestly, it wasn't really in my radar. I grew up in Brazil, and I just, I don't know, it just wasn't like presentable a career path that was like presented to me ever that I really thought this could be an option, you know, right. But I knew I wanted to do something creative. And I knew I wanted to tell stories. It was just like taking another form back then. And I it all like one thing led to the next like I was assisting a lot of other directors and producers for a while and I started writing my own work and the the first thing that sort of started to put my work out there was be here now which was wish be here now wish which was a web show that I, you know, started directed row produced did the sound sometimes, like just lab services. Got it? Yeah, craft services did everything with a handful of friends. And that, you know, started to kind of putting the wheels in motion in terms of me doing this as a career,

Alex Ferrari 5:20
Which was fun, because I actually saw a little bit of that show, and it actually looks really good. Like it actually has great production value for being such a scrappy little show. So congratulations on that.

Natalia Leite 5:33
I'll credit that to Del Mar, who was our dp dollarway. For Madsen. She's shooting high maintenance now on HBO, and she is just the queen of just like, let's figure it out and still make it look gorgeous. So yeah, she's really lucky to have her as a friend and DP on that.

Alex Ferrari 5:50
You definitely need people like that on on your crew as a director, yes. Let's figure it out. And like, let's still make it look gorgeous. That's always like,

Natalia Leite 6:00
We're like pulling in, you know, like, whatever we could find just like bringing in lamps and just, you know, attaching things like just trying to be creative of how we're going to get a good image and not make it look super low quality. So she's she's really creative in that way.

Alex Ferrari 6:15
So let me ask you, how did you get that first project got that series up off the ground? I mean, obviously, you need some money. Where did you find money? How did you put this whole thing? How did you put that show together?

Natalia Leite 6:27
Yeah, so the show, we, you know, it really started off as, okay, let's do this on weekends with friends, like I just want to get, I just want to get work out there in the world, right. And then, so everyone was working for free, but then obviously, like, they came points when, okay, we really do need money, we can't just like keep this going for, for nothing. And we ended up doing a Kickstarter, we raised 20,000 on that Kickstarter, which was like, a lot of work. It's like not a lot of money at all for for making a series, you know, that ended up being like an hour and a bit long. But we really stretched it out and made those 20k on Kickstarter and, and through that met like other investors, it was actually a pretty successful campaign for us, because we just met a lot of people that then ended up financing other projects.

Alex Ferrari 7:21
And we're in where's it being shown now.

Natalia Leite 7:25
So be here now, which is still on, we ended up selling the first season to a company called aura. So they have it on their site. And then the second season, we had it with full screen, which is full screen no longer exists. So now it's just up on our Vimeo and we're trying to figure out if we can just like throw it up on YouTube because for us at this point, it's just about you know, why do people watch it? I mean, it's it's, you know, it's older, it's old now. I consider it for

Alex Ferrari 7:54
Yes and ancient, like two three years old. It's like three years old My God then it's like the 80s but I want people to still watch it you know? Alright aged a bit since I was Yes, yes. Oh, yes. Yes, you look haggard lately. I'm sorry. Yeah. It's my you see, you can go back your youth. My youth is fading away in front of you. Yes. Those three years really killed is now what is it certainly ask you. So what is your process when you're creating or selecting a project?

Natalia Leite 8:32
My process so I need to gravitate towards things that I feel a personal connection to, that I feel really passionate about. Because, as you know, it just, you're going to work on this thing for so long. Sometimes you don't even know how long and you got to just like, love it. And I feel like for me, I need to feel it's an instinctual thing. Like I need to feel like there's like a cord from my heart to whatever the script or concept is. That's like pulling me towards it. And there's been a lot of times, you know, now I'm reading other people's scripts, I'm deciding like, what to do next, writing my own stuff as well. But for me, it's always just like, I have to just check in intuitively to Is there a really strong pool like do I feel called to absolutely have to do this? You know, otherwise? I, I might love a story and be like, Oh, this is great, but I'm not feeling so passionate about it's probably not for me like I shouldn't be the one to do it. You know, and I think it's really good to discern that

Alex Ferrari 9:30
Well tell me a little bit about your work with Vice and how that came about. Especially that amazing documentary every woman life as a truck, truck stop stripper, which is when I saw that I was like a half to have her on the show. I need to hear all about this.

Natalia Leite 9:47
Yeah. So I had been writing on my own a script for my first features called bear. And a big part of the script took place in a strip club, but I didn't want but it's sort of like a strip club. In a small town, and I was looking for something that was like, you know, just off the off the highway ideally, right? Like I didn't want like a big nightclub a strip club in

Alex Ferrari 10:10
In the city. Right?

Natalia Leite 10:11
Right. And I had friends at the time, I didn't know where I was going to shoot. But I had friends who were living in Albuquerque, and I went there on like a month, you know, hiatus while I was writing the script to go live in Albuquerque, and ended up like touring all the strip clubs in the area. As I was like doing research and ended up finding out about this club, that is about 45 minutes away from Albuquerque, in the middle of nowhere, like you're driving on highway 40, nothing, nothing, nothing, you pass a Walmart, then there's nothing, nothing, nothing. And then there's like the signs there's like topless. And then there is like club 203. And it just cater to truckers. So the truckers passing by, they can tune into a CB radio, and they'll pick up the signal. And it'll be someone at the club being like, tonight on stages candy, and you know, whatever they say. And they'll like turn off into the side of the road. And I found out about this place. I went there alone for the first time. And I was just like, what is this?

Alex Ferrari 11:13
Sounds? It sounds like it sounds insane. Yeah, it was just like, it was like straight out of a David Lynch movie. And it's expecting people to start talking backwards. And there'll be a little person just walking by.

Natalia Leite 11:27
I was like, wow, this is really fascinating. And it was just, you know, that I'm Ryan, who's the guy who owns it, it was like very much a no rules type of place. And that there was like in terms of the dancing like you could do whatever you want. They had this rocking horse, they would pull on stage sometimes. And there was like, you know, just like mom and dad daughter dance, like it was like, yeah, there was like this survey stuff going on to this. Like, I don't know about this.

Alex Ferrari 11:55
That's just Oh, okay.

Natalia Leite 11:58
A lot of stuff that didn't end up in the piece. But anyway, so I was like, wow, this place. Aside from I wanted to put it in my feature film as a location. It deserves a piece on its own right. So I put I pitch to vice. Well, I went there, you know, I had gone there alone filmed a little bit of just filmed on my own a little bit to show a sample of like, what this really is, and then went back and then went to Vice with my friend Alexandra, who I was working with at the time to pitch as like a standalone piece of advice. This was like Eddie Moretti, who was the the, you know, creative there. He was like, Ah, you know, we get pitched like stripper concepts all the time. Like we're not interested in I was like, No, no, no, what universe sound like, I want to go and work there. He's like, Oh, okay. Like you're that's that sounds crazy.

Alex Ferrari 12:49
It sounds

Natalia Leite 12:51
Right. Yeah. And you went and worked and lived there for about 10 days

Alex Ferrari 12:56
So before we continue that story. How did you get to Vice? Because I know a lot of filmmakers would love to have that conversation with somebody advice. How do you how do you approach a company like that?

Natalia Leite 13:05
Yeah, so Okay. I went to a panel where Eddie Moretti was speaking, it was a Tribeca Film Festival organised panel. And at the end of the panel, I cornered him

To say, you accosted him? Got it? I did. So did like 30 other people, right, right, as you do at panels,

As I as you do at panels, and I was like, I have something that you're gonna be really interested in seeing? And he's like, yeah, okay, great. Reach out, and just gave me his assistance, email, you know, and I reached out and I sent him a link to a piece that I had shot. In Cuba. This was like, before every woman that was very, like, I had, you know, edited, like really fast, very, like, by style, and I just sent him the link and I didn't say much else. And he called me like, right away, was like, get come in come in tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah, and it's just sometimes that stuff works, you know, but you've got to be, like, smart about how you're approaching it. Like, you've people, these people don't have time, right? So it's like, hey, like, what's gonna grab their attention? And what, what do I have that they want? Right? And that was it. Like, I just met him at a panel, there was no, you know, from there, like, it opened up the scope. And then we did every woman and then he called me back to do you know, direct other things and, but that stuff is possible, like the just cold calling, sometimes. Well,

Alex Ferrari 14:34
It does. And I'm actually I'm quite jealous because I am actually Cuban. And I've never been to Cuba yet. So when I saw that piece that you did, I was like, oh, that would have been amazing.

Natalia Leite 14:43
Yeah, he was really special place. I felt really lucky to be there. And at that time, especially and film it.

Alex Ferrari 14:50
So Alright, so So now you're back at Club was a club tool to about two or three because I was just the highway exit, right? So your club 203 and You're there for 10 days.

Natalia Leite 15:01
I'm there for 10 days. And that was me, Alexandra, who, who came in was working with me at the time. And vice sent us with one producer. This was prior to Vice land. So it was a little bit like still, you know, no rules. Like, I mean, we were putting ourselves in dangerous situations like I would fly today. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 15:23
You think I saw? I saw it? Are you? Are you kidding me?

Natalia Leite 15:26
Yeah. really dangerous. And I don't know that I would do it today. Because now I know a little more.

Alex Ferrari 15:31
Obviously, you're much older, obviously.

Natalia Leite 15:34
I have a lot of gray hair. Interview isn't a video? No, I see what I look like.

Alex Ferrari 15:41
Exactly, exactly. No, I mean, I mean, when I saw it, I was like, This can't be I can't believe that these girls did this. Like this is so and the guys you met were? I mean,

Natalia Leite 15:54
It was a intense Yeah, I think what I realized too, but you know, the whole idea about it was I wanted to go in there to try to debunk what are the stereotypes of the stripper and like why women decide to do this, and the stereotypes of the truckers that go into these clubs, right. And I really feel like, it sort of opened my mind to what's possible, and our what kind of, you know, what the, our like own limitations are and who those people are. And, you know, there's like one woman who we interviewed Daisy, who was talking about how she feels like, it's her calling, it's, she loves doing the work, because she feels like she's a therapist to these men. And that's sort of like, Oh, we we never stopped to think about that, you know, maybe. Yeah, like the that's a version of it. And also some of the guys all across the board, but people just wanted someone to talk to and a connection. And I think it was like a less about being naked and more about them feeling like someone was caring, caring for them and wanting to listen to their stories, you know, of course, that's just there's also then like this, the creepy guy who tries to like, grab you. And

Alex Ferrari 17:05
There's these streams, there's the extremes of both ends.

Natalia Leite 17:08
Right, exactly. But it's not all bad, you know. And we definitely saw that and some of the stories from the men were really intense. And it was hard to listen to

Alex Ferrari 17:17
Let me ask you a question when you were in that when you are in that moment, how, I mean, psychologically? How was it for you? Because I mean, I'm watching this, and I'm going, I'm just thinking to myself, this is your young lady who's put herself in this situation with her friend, for God knows what reason. And and I'm thinking how, what's the psychology What's going on? Because this is not a one one night thing you were there for, for 10 days. This was a day in day out. It's not like, I'm going to try this for one night, and I can go back home, you came back and again and again. And like how did that were on you? Not only as the subject of of it, but also, I mean, you were directing that as well. Correct? Yeah. So how did you do that?

Natalia Leite 18:05
I don't know. I think a lot of sometimes I look back and I think about my best work is stuff that I'm terrified to do, or they're terrified to talk about. And it's almost like, I just keep that I just keep the ball rolling. And then you know, and then eventually it hits a moment when there's no turning back. Right? And you're like, Ah, this is happening, like this is now out in the world. And I feel like this project was exactly that. Like, I was terrified to be there. I mean, it was also having fun with it. But it was just like, really intense, emotionally draining and physically draining. And I was terrified of like putting this out in the world, you know? So

Alex Ferrari 18:45
Because you're, you're exposing yourself and not in that way. But you're exposing your your basically your soft underbelly to the entire world.

Natalia Leite 18:52
Yeah, exactly. So it was just a lot of exposure. But you know, eventually you just hit a deadline. And you're like, you just press send and that's it. And then it's out. It's like has a mind of its own and it's going to be whatever it needs to be. But I think it was just Yeah, like every day was a bit of a challenge. But you just kind of keep going because that's there's no way there's no other way around it. You know, push yourself to keep going.

Alex Ferrari 19:15
No, you are it from from what I see in your work. You are extremely raw and vulnerable. Did that? Is that something that comes naturally to you? Or do you have to work at it to be able to kind of expose yourself as an artist?

Natalia Leite 19:28
Yeah, no, I think it comes naturally to me. I think I'm just naturally have a can tap into that sensitivity and being very empathetic. And you know, I do end up just feeling things intensely. And then sometimes I wonder if that's a hindrance, but more so now I feel like that's an advantage that I'm able to, you know, when I'm connecting with actors just like feel what they're feeling deeply and just look at performance and scenes and just be really connected on it. emotional level, I think it's actually really important for my work.

Alex Ferrari 20:03
And I and you agree that that's probably some of your best work is, the more scary it is, the more extreme, it might be more vulnerable and might be, is where you find that your work really shines.

Natalia Leite 20:15
Yeah, I do. And because that's what I want to be, you know, pushing the conversation forward, I want to be just doing stuff that is making us think about things differently and making us feel more connected. And that sometimes goes in and you know, deals deal with things that we're not talking about. So like, for instance, and even be here now, I wish there was I wanted to do a storyline about a guy who was HIV positive. And how do you deal with that in the dating world? Right. So like, there's just a little piece of it in the scene in the series, but it's like, why are we not talking about this? Right? Like, I have a cousin who's HIV positive. And, and the stories are interesting to me. And there's just not enough of these conversations out there. So but it's always scary, because you're like, Oh, this is kind of going into dangerous territory that is it gonna offend someone like, right, like, you just don't know. And, um, I always try to push myself to, to have those conversations, at least open it up,

Alex Ferrari 21:21
I find that, you know, by doing the kind of work that I do, and also just being a filmmaker myself that it's it's extremely difficult to be raw and vulnerable with your work. And I find that so many filmmakers hide behind falsehoods or create these walls that you can smell on their work. You can just smell it like, Oh, they didn't go all the way. Oh, they just they pull back at the last moment. And it's only the ones that go all the way that you go. Oh, there it is. And you see that in performances, you see that in directors, you see that and writers. So that's why I find your work so interesting. Because you are still early on in your career. I know you're ancient, but you're still you're still early on in your career. And I'm really curious to see the kind of work that you'll do in 10 years. Because you only by the way, being someone who's older than you. You only get braver, I feel as you get older because you start giving less of a shit.

Natalia Leite 22:19
Yeah, you know, it's, it's good to remember that. Thank you. I always like yeah, I always feel like I have to push myself. And it's always scary. But I do like feeling sometimes, like you're just standing on the edge of the cliff, you're like, Oh my god, am I gonna do? Am I gonna do it? And you just have to, like, jump into the waterfall or whatever. You just have to do it.

Alex Ferrari 22:36
Yeah, that's why we're here. That's why we're here. Why are you gonna play it safe? That's not boring. I mean, I'm not going to go and be a stripper for 10 days at a truck stop in Albuquerque. Because that's just not my path. And really, I would get no tips. But nobody wants to see that. You know? Nobody wants to see that documentary, I promise you. So, what was it like with your first feature film bear, which was based, not based on but kind of, in the world of every woman when it got accepted to Tribeca? I mean, what was that experience? Like? I always, anytime I have a filmmaker who gets into like Tribeca or Sundance or Cannes or something like that, I always want to hear the story of when they find out.

Natalia Leite 23:24
I mean, so thrilled you just don't know like, you go into it all just hoping for the best and it was the best It was really the best case scenario for me. It was like I wanted so badly to premiere there. And you're just waiting and waiting. And I was so thrilled and I was so impressed because the festival they do such an amazing job. They take such good care of their filmmakers. We weren't you we didn't know what to expect. But you know, they gave us the red carpet they gave us at party like it was it felt incredible. It was really yeah, it was really phenomenal.

Alex Ferrari 23:59
Now I see I see that you like putting yourself in yourself in your work? How do you handle being in front and behind the camera?

Natalia Leite 24:09
So it's a little challenging for me, which is honestly why I'm not putting myself in my work as much anymore because I feel like it's hard for me to focus on two things at once. being totally focused on my character and then also like directing the scene, you know, so I still like throw myself a little scene just for fun because I like that. You

Alex Ferrari 24:31
Pop your pop yourself in once in a while. Sure. Yeah, you'll do your Hitchcock Got it?

Natalia Leite 24:35
Yeah. But I just really I'm staying behind the camera right now because I want to craft the story and I think like just staying you know, more connected to the actress and the whole picture is really important. I really don't know how people are managed to do that. And like being the lead of a movie and also like directing. It seems really hard to me

Alex Ferrari 24:56
Like the Clint Eastwood's of the world and to George Clooney is of the world like I'm like how do you how do you do that? Right?

Natalia Leite 25:02
I mean, maybe like there's a point when you have a really solid support system that you can, you can lean on them. I think for me, I'm still building out, like who those people are. And when I find crew that I love, I'm just like, okay, like, We're family. Now you're coming with me everywhere, because it's so you know, being on set is so intensive, you just want to have that rapport with, you just want to assemble the family that you're going to carry around to every project without question. I

Alex Ferrari 25:31
Mean, my last film I the feature, I just direct that I was in it, unfortunately. And it was, it was difficult for the one scene or two scenes that I did, I was just like, oh, how do you do? How does people to

Natalia Leite 25:44
No it's really hard? Because you can't, you can't be in the moment and also be thinking big picture, or at least I can't

Alex Ferrari 25:50
Write or unless you unless you have that trust behind the camera that you like, Okay, my dp is going to cover me while I'm in the scene. Right? And then and then you just after you're cut, you're like, Was it good? I have no idea. Right? That's how I always did i do think good. Is that and is there is that really, and then all of a sudden, you turn to the actor you like you're looking for, like, approval or like, yeah, did I do good? Can I do it again? But then no one wants to tell you no. But that's when you want that dp to go. Dude. did do it again. Just Yeah. But generally, they're going now it's the light was off. And I'm like, I don't care about the light. I care about the performance right. Now, what do you enjoy to create more narrative features series or documentaries?

Natalia Leite 26:40
I love I love narrative features. I love like having an arc like a very clear introductory, beginning, middle and that we're going through and thinking about how like the character is transforming and that I think series like it can just go on forever, right? So there's like, less of that clear hook. I like just even like, as someone who like read so many psychology books and thinks about how we transform as humans in the world. Like I love that beginning to end journey. But yeah, and I but I also think like sometimes on the, like, features is so hard, I would say like, because you have to have a clear end, right? Like you can't just be like, and then maybe in season two, this happens, right? Like it has to stop. And I like crafting that. And the doc stuff for me. It's just fun because I like dealing with real people. So more. So I've been trying to find ways to merge the two, right? Like puts put real people in my scripted work and then also get actors to be in non scripted situations and surgeons create a fusion of that

Alex Ferrari 27:50
Kind of like Shaun Baker does. I love Shaun Baker. Yeah, I'm a big fan of his work. Sean's awesome. I mean, the Florida project I have no idea why that was not didn't get more issued a one more stuff. It was just

Natalia Leite 28:03
So great. He's Uh, yeah, he's lovely. And we've talked a few times. He's just been really supportive, awesome friend as well.

Alex Ferrari 28:10
Now, tell me a little about your film MFA, which I haven't gotten a chance to see the movie, but I saw the trailer and I was I was again blown away by the by the the subject matter and how you twisted something that normally doesn't get shown that way?

Natalia Leite 28:26
Yeah, so MFA. Leah Mackendrick was the writer on it. She wrote it. And she is also an actress. And she had just seen my work and just send me a cold email and was like, Hi, I'm looking for director I'd love for you to consider this. And normally I'm like, Oh, I don't you know, like, normally this stuff is not good. But when I get these emails, but I read her logline, and she sent me the script, and I was like, oh, wow, like this is really, really strong. And it was just surprising to just get an email like that. And so her and I started talking, she already had some financing in place. It was a small movie. So private investors, piecing it together. And, and yeah, and then we were shooting pretty quickly, but it was it worked out really well. It was like also one of those magical collaborations because we didn't know each other at all. I didn't know any other people that she had already assembled, you know, producer wise for the project. But we all got along really well and made something really special. And the story, you know, has I had like a deep personal connection to it. Having gone to art school, I had been sexually assaulted when I was in art school. So it was almost like, Oh, I have to make this project right. And Francesca Eastwood who played the lead was just I was just so blown away by her and her performance and throwing herself into some pretty difficult scenes. Like talking about like things that make you terrified right? Shooting that rape scene with Francesca was terrifying to me. And I was so and we did so many different cuts of it. And I was so worried that it was. It's truly disturbing. Like a lot of people have imagined, of course, that scene up as like it's too raw and real. And but yeah, you got to just push yourself to go there.

Alex Ferrari 30:22
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. And again, when you do that is when it starts to shut the work starts to shine, more and more, if you would have held back there, the movie might not have had the same impact. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, it took you tell. Just tell the audience a little bit about the logline, if you will, of the movie.

Natalia Leite 30:47
Yeah. So MFA is about an art student getting her masters of Fine Arts. And she has a crush on a boy in her class, which was played by Peter vac, and he ends up raping her at a party. And she acts she kind of from then on ends up seeking revenge and hunting down slash killing the rapist on campus. So it's a great revenge story, but in a very different tone than what we've seen before.

Alex Ferrari 31:16
It's not as much I spit on your grave?

Natalia Leite 31:18
Not at all. No, no, it's very raw and emotional. It's very much her point of view.

Alex Ferrari 31:24
And really, yeah, it is it is a kind of a, like you were saying it is a little bit of a combination of the real and the fictional, because of the way you shot it, at least from the trailer. It doesn't look like a Hollywood flashy film. But it also doesn't look like a documentary. It looks a little hybrid, hybrid ish.

Natalia Leite 31:45
Yeah, it does. Yeah. And I wanted it to be accessible to people, right? So I think about that, too. Like, who's the audience for this, and I want, I want it to be fast and fun, too. And there's a version of it, that could have just been a really depressing movie. And I didn't want to be it. You know, I wanted you to be like, cheering for her and excited when she gets her revenge. And there is a part, especially in the second half of the movie, where it really is more like playing off of the fun and excitement of her getting what she wants. Well,

Alex Ferrari 32:17
There's some humor in the trailer without question. So I can only imagine. Yeah, there's humor in it, though. It's kind of like a bridge of different genres here. Which isn't, which is an interesting take on the subject matter. Because you're right. It could have been it could have just gone straight, dark, real quick, and stayed there. And it's hard to get an audience back from that. But

Natalia Leite 32:37
Nobody wants to watch that. You know, we need to also have some levity and fun with it. We need to be able it needs to feel cathartic for people watching it.

Alex Ferrari 32:45
Now, what are some of your greatest challenges about the process of making films? greatest challenges, I mean, onset creative dealing with Hollyweird dealing well on Hollywood, for sure. How Yeah, how does that work? Like I just can't see you in a room with an agent talking about this stuff. Like I love that term, Hollyweird. No, Tom. Yeah, I mean, I'm an East Coast guy. So I've been out here. I've been out here for 10 years. So I have a completely different perspective on on living out here. I wasn't raised out here. So I see it. And I've been around long enough to just go Yeah, this is Hollyweird. But I've just because so many times here in Los Angeles, people just don't get things that are outside the box, where you live outside the box, you know, you're not ever in the box in any of the work that I've seen. So I would just love to be a fly on the wall. If you have a conversation with a Hollywood agent, or Hollywood producer, or studio like so, Natalia, what would you like to do next? Well, you know, there's this stripper thing that Yeah, I've been really into body horror lately. I've been itching body horror idea. Body. What is it body whore?

Natalia Leite 34:06
Body horror. So like Cronenberg? Yeah. Oh, does a lot of that. Right where it's like horror, but it's really like happening to you and to your body.

Alex Ferrari 34:16
Very, very, I think Disney is involved. I think Disney should get involved.

Natalia Leite 34:20
Yeah, exactly. Oh, it's really interesting. And some people you know, I just keep trying to remind myself because you can try to remind myself to like, stick by my integrity stick by my morals. Just do what I feel is right. And dockets persuaded by these the Hollyweird port part of it, which is a lot of people who just, you know, you know, maybe they're even presenting you with like a shiny opportunity, and it looks really good and you want to go there, right? But you're like, wait, this isn't me, I can't do this or it's an opportunity. That means you'd have to like, like, burn bridges on something else or upset or that you No. So it's like, you just have to stay there. It is a crazy industry. And you have to, I just keep always like checking back into myself and be like, does this make me feel good? Is this me? Like, do I really want to do this? Like, does this represent what kind of work I want to put out in the world? And I think that's so important. I mean, I'm lucky right now, because my agents are actually really awesome. My, my managers as well. And the people that I'm in touch with, but I've, I've circled, I've cycled through agencies, you know, already been in that, like, short career that I've had already, like, jumped around to different agencies. So hopefully, this is the one that I stay with, like long term, because I really like these people. And it's all about the relationships, you know, that you're building?

Alex Ferrari 35:43
And do you have any? What's the like, the greatest challenge of you like onset, like, what's the biggest thing you have to deal with on set, that is just a big challenge for you.

Natalia Leite 35:52
Collaboration, I think collaboration and always try to be super clear with your vision, like from day one, because other people might not get it. Making sure you're on the same page. But it's always hard when you want to push, sometimes it's hard to explain things, right? Like in MFA. I like really want to push for a certain thing, but it's not 100% my project, and the more of work you do are, the bigger the work gets, the more that's going to be the scenario, right? Where there's other producers and other people and weighing in on what the final outcome is. And it can only be your way. So. And while all that can be quite amazing to have that collaboration, it is also like a huge challenge sometimes, how to get people to do what you what you really ultimately want out of it.

Alex Ferrari 36:42
Oh, yeah, I agree with you. 110%. That's

Natalia Leite 36:46
Hard. But you know, you have to, like, make some sacrifices to and I felt like, in every project like that, it was like, Alright, you know, you get this, but then I have to keep I have to keep this thing. But you know what? I'm trying to

Alex Ferrari 36:59
Go I'm sorry, to interrupt you.

Natalia Leite 37:01
So that's it just trying to find a compromise? Like, let's let's split up like so we're both happy here.

Alex Ferrari 37:07
I find that, you know, I've been you know, in my career, I've been challenged on set by crew, people, by actors, by egos constantly. How do you deal with it? Because I could only imagine it being even more difficult. You know, being a female director, it's getting easier. And I can't say from my perspective, it seems like it's getting the doors are opening, cracking just a slight bit more nowadays, than they were 20 years ago. But I can only imagine it being a little bit more difficult, especially if you have a rough crew or something like that. I'm just curious on what you do, and how you deal with that.

Natalia Leite 37:44
It's like, yeah, I think it's it's a challenge. I think also I present, you know, I'm small, I'm like five, four, I'm pretty I'm petite in size to you know, like, Latin, small woman, and look, and you know, people like don't it's and I'm also like, I want to be really friendly with the crew, you know, I want everyone to feel good that they're here on set. But that sometimes that gets like misinterpreted, and people think they can just

Alex Ferrari 38:11
Walk all over you.

Natalia Leite 38:12
Yeah. And I've had to, just to, you know, be really firm. Sometimes they're really like called call out the bullsh that like, hey, do you want to be here? You do actually want to do this? Because you don't have to you can walk away like I've literally said that someone

Alex Ferrari 38:28
You know, so if I Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Natalia Leite 38:32
Yeah. And then they you call them out on their bullshit. They'll be like, Oh, no, what, whoa, whoa, like, they'll step out of it, you know, but I think it's always better to be super upfront, and call it out. And even if that means having a super awkward conversation, than to pretend like it's, you know, that to like, go around to other people or pretend like it's not happening or just be giving someone shady look, right.

Alex Ferrari 38:55
Yeah, it's, it's, I feel sometimes it's like a prison yard. Like they're gonna test you to see what they can get away with. And season crew season crew, if they don't respect the director, it's done. Any crew for that matter. But if a season crew, like a seasoned dp, a seasoned, you know, gaffer and, and production designer, if these guys or girls don't respect you, or think that they can pull one over on you, it becomes a very difficult shoot.

Natalia Leite 39:24
Really difficult. I've also had situations where, you know, I was working with like, season, men, particularly who were like, a lot older than me, and who just couldn't even look me in the eye, you know, like they would be addressing my producer, even though the question was to me, and it was so odd, right? And I just felt like I was like, I have to say something because it's so obvious that this person is uncomfortable that I'm in this position with them, right. They came in, look at me in the face, you know, and

Alex Ferrari 39:59
Yeah, you have to I think the best advice is you just got to call him out on your shit on their shit right away. Because if you let it fester, it can actually grow as a cancer on the rest of the set. Right and exactly and all of a sudden, you've got a mutiny on your hands. And if you're not on a 10 day shoot 20 day shoot you it's gonna be hell, and it's going to be tough to get them back. So what

Natalia Leite 40:20
Are you know what the other thing that that makes me think of is just like, I think sometimes, too, because people I've had so many people tell me like, this is the right way to do it. Right? And I'm like, what is the right way to do it? No way to do anything. There's no right way to do it. And just because, like, yeah, I didn't go to film school. I don't know what the right way to do it. But this is the way that I want to do it. Because I think it works, you know, having people let go of like, the ideas of what is how it's supposed to go, you know, I'm not talking about like union rules or anything just like forms of directing or of putting things together. It's just challenging. Well, no, yeah. I

Alex Ferrari 40:55
Had a conversation with the filmmaker the other day that you know, he does all of his films improv, he does the, you know, Mark duplass style, Joe Swanberg style, you know, kind of work. And I gave the example is like, Look, you know, if you give, you know, Jason Paul, Jackson Pollock, Van Gogh and Dolly, a canvas and paint, they're going to paint a picture differently. Right, the only common denominator is the canvas and the paint and the brush. And only common denominator in filmmaking is an actor, a camera and a lens. You know, and how you tell that story is completely up to you. You know, as long as you get that story in that in that camera, somehow, it's, it's all relative.

Natalia Leite 41:39
Yeah, exactly. Anything else you have to like, push for what is your vision and your style, otherwise, everything ends up the same.

Alex Ferrari 41:45
And one, one piece of advice I got from a director and old school director, I've never done this, I haven't had the balls to do it. But I think it would be fantastic to do it, just use it as a gag, the very first day on any set, nobody knows who you are, bring one of your friends on, and fire them. Just bring that they're just there. They're not supposed to be there. Just bring one of your friends tell them that they're like, you know, a part of a department and they do something wrong. And literally fire them as loudly as you can, in front of everybody and let them take off. And that will set the tone for the rest of the shoot. That was totally set the tone that would terrify people, you know, but I'm not sure if that's the vibe you want on set. But I've always wanted to do something I've never done. I've never had the balls to do it. But I think it would be hilarious.

Natalia Leite 42:35
Hilarious. That was so funny. I mean, that's not my style. Right when people just get along and be exactly

Alex Ferrari 42:43
like, you know, Ron Howard's not doing that, you know, James Cameron probably would.

Natalia Leite 42:48
Okay, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 42:49
It all depends on the style of directing that you do. So tell me a little bit about your commercial work. I see that you've gotten gotten into that world a bit.

Natalia Leite 42:58
Yeah. So on the commercial side, I've been working with a production company called humble. And I signed with them earlier this year. And it's been amazing, really good team there. And they've we've crafted, you know, they've sent me like already to different parts of the world for different shoots. So I did adopt style shoot in India, for vans, we did a thing for North Face here. And I actually just got back from Saudi Arabia to do another commercial out there, which was pretty wild. So it's been a really rewarding and fun part of my career to be able to travel deal with real people. And have obviously like the money support behind it as well.

Alex Ferrari 43:40
Yes. When you're writing your scripts, it can be very lonely, and the bank account can be very low. Yes, I agree. I I do commercials and series and stuff every once in a while between my features as well. So I completely understand what you're saying. Yeah. So it's been wonderful working with them. So I'm going to ask you a few questions. I asked all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker wanting to break into the business today?

Natalia Leite 44:05
I would say you have to have a lot of grit. And you have to really stick by what is it that you're putting out into the world? I don't think it's enough to just, you know, here's like, oh, here's like an entertaining story. Like we live in a world where there's like, a lot of change happening constantly. And I'm all about like, what are you saying with this? Why does this deserve to be here in the world for people to watch, right? And just like, Don't give up, there's going to be there's so many people that give up along the way, you know, it's like, there is just be patient and persevere. And that's how you get it. You know, it's like not people want a lot of like immediate gratification. And like you have to enjoy the journey to like constantly keep reminding myself of that, like, yeah, I want to do this big thing, but it could take years, I don't know, I just have to keep going. But I know I'm gonna get there.

Alex Ferrari 45:03
No, I always love when actors or film directors or writers come to LA and they go, I have a six month plan, right?

Natalia Leite 45:13
For these things to happen in six months, but if they don't, don't get involved,

Alex Ferrari 45:18
It's a 10 year plan, minimum,

Natalia Leite 45:20
You have to have the five year plan. I have my five year plan, like every, every and I reevaluate it every year. I'm like, okay, here's where I want to be five years, like, what are the steps to getting there? Like, here's this crazy, big budget project that I've been wanting to do already for a few years. And I feel so strongly about it, I'm not gonna give up on it. I'm just gonna keep finding ways to, to get there. You know, having that like long term vision is really important.

Alex Ferrari 45:48
Nothing you told me the book that had the biggest impact on your life or career?

Natalia Leite 46:01
Well, I mean, this is a hard question, just one book, but I watch everyone comes to your mind. You know, I think Rebecca solnit comes to my mind right now because I read all of her books, and I love her writing. And I feel so connected to her voice, and how she thinks about the world. And it's just always like, I've really read her books, and it just always, like, opens up possibilities for me.

Alex Ferrari 46:29
Awesome, awesome. Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life confidence I'm still learning it, they you need that we need to have some

Natalia Leite 46:46
That that the lesson being just like, you got to believe in yourself, you know, it is the best lesson to believing in yourself. It's just like, so easy to forget that your voice is important.

Alex Ferrari 46:59
Now, what are the three with what are three of your favorite films of all time?

Natalia Leite 47:06
Three favorite films. Okay, we think for a second. I'm gonna say, I love the piano.

Alex Ferrari 47:21
That's a great movie. I love that movie.

Natalia Leite 47:23
It's a great movie. I've watched that film a few times and was just like, so beautiful. And there's so much emotion behind it. And Holly Hunter is incredible. I love this. This is hard. Wait, let me come back to it.

Alex Ferrari 47:45
It could just be like, it's not gonna be on your gravestone, such as three of your faces. Yeah, don't put it on my gravestone. No, no, it's whatever. three movies come to your mind today.

Natalia Leite 47:54
Okay, I loved fish tank. That's been like a film that I referenced a lot that was really loving trailer and old. There's this filmmaker called busua penzo. That did a film called x x y. Have you seen it?

Alex Ferrari 48:08
Yes. Yes. Yes. I know that movie.

Natalia Leite 48:11
Yeah, I really like her work. I thought that film was just so subtle and emotional and just strong subject matter. Very cool. same vein right now. Maybe that's just how I'm feeling in the moment.

Alex Ferrari 48:23
It's it. Listen, tomorrow, I asked you this question. Yeah, something else? Exactly. It's, it's, again, it won't be on your gravestone, so don't worry. And where can people find you? online?

Natalia Leite 48:36
You can find me on Instagram or Twitter, or on my website, which is just my name. NataliaLeite.com. And I'd love to stay in touch with people I love to talk to people. I always write back so unless you're sending me like a creepy comment.

Alex Ferrari 48:54
Natalia, thank you so much for sharing your journey and your process with us and you are an inspiration to I know a lot of filmmakers who are going to be listening to this. Thank you again for taking the time.

Natalia Leite 49:05
Thank you so much, Alex.

Alex Ferrari 49:08
I want to thank Natalia for coming on and dropping those knowledge bombs and sharing her process on how she brings her creativity to life. If you want any links or trailers, or just want to watch some of the amazing work that Natalia does, head over to our show notes at indiefilmhustle.com/271 and enjoy. Now before I go guys, I want to again thank you so much guys for all the support with ifH TV as you kind of probably have noticed I've been a little off on my schedule with the podcasting. It has been absolutely maddening. Crazy, trying to launch a Netflix for filmmakers a a streaming service dedicated to you guys. It is not easy. I'm doing a lot of it on my own. And it's it's a very, very big undertaking and It's been a lot of time in the work. So forgive me if my timing is a little off sometimes getting this workout to begin the podcast episodes out to you guys. But trust me when you guys see IFH TV, I think is gonna, I think you guys are gonna really enjoy it. So again, if you haven't seen the teaser trailer for it, just go to IFHTV.com. And then I will release the final URL to the main site in the coming weeks. November 1 is when we launch, but also, there will be some early access to other filmmakers who sign up. So if you sign up there, you will get early access to IFHTV and get in there before anybody else does. And also on a side note, guys, I have been asked a ton by the tribe about like indie film, hustle hats and T shirts and mirch for indie film hustle. And it's something I've never done, as you guys know, over the course of the last three years that we've been on, but a lot of pressure has been been put on me by the tribe. So I've decided to launch some some merge some some inspirational t shirts, hats, accessories, things like that, that will help inspire you guys to kind of move forward and, and help you guys on your journey on your path. So that is going to be coming out next Tuesday I'm gonna be launching, I have h the IFH merch store. And I will be sending out links and there'll be special deals and all sorts of stuff coming out when we launch. So for all of you out there listening, who really been dying for that indie film hustle hat, or a great t shirt, I got some great designs I've been working on as well. And guys, I don't even know how I do all this, I tell you that you really don't know how I do all of this. But I do. And I think I do it all because I do it all for you guys, man. I mean, I really, I really am killing myself here, but I love doing it. And I want to just give you guys as much as humanly possible. So thank you guys, again, so much for your support. Keep an eye out next week on Tuesday for that announcement and those those deals. And again, thank you for all your support. Guys. I don't I can't do this without you guys. Please continue to spread the word. If you haven't gone already. Go to filmmakingpodcast.com leave a review, give us some good good ratings helps us get the word out on the podcast. I want this information to get out to as many filmmakers, screenwriters, content creators, as humanly possible, spread the word you guys are the best advertising I could ever do. So thank you, again, so much for all your support guys, and I've got so many things coming up before this year is out to talk to you about I still got those two big announcements coming up one about the book that I'm writing, and I'll tell you all about that later on, when I have a release date for it. And the third big thing that's going to be coming out about a week after IFH TV gets released. And this is going to be a huge, huge opportunity for the tribe. And it's, I hope I like just want to tell you, but I can't. It's going to be something really really special and awesome for you guys. And it's going to help you guys get to where you want to be faster. And I'll give you one tip I will give you one hint it is it's going to allow you to get access to the film industry in a way that you haven't been able to get access to it before. You might not have to break down or knock down those doors as hard with this thing that I'm going to announce it's it's a way for me to give back to you guys even more and and help you guys follow your dreams. So that's it I can't see anymore. I can't see anymore. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I got like interior. Yep, I'm tearing up already because I am so excited about all the stuff I got going on for you guys. So thanks again for everything guys. I'm gonna stop talking now. As always, keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive and I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 270: Changing the World with Your Documentary with Susan Kucera

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Today on the show we have documentarian, Susan Kucera. Her new film Living in the Future’s Past stars Academy Award® winner Jeff Bridges.

We discuss the power of documentaries, how she became the cinematographer and editor on all her films and how she talked Jeff Bridges into being in her film.

Enjoy my conversation with Susan Kucera.

Alex Ferrari 3:02
Today's guest is Susan Kucera and she is a documentarian and the director of living in the futures pass starring the legendary Jeff Bridges. And I wanted to have Susan come on to talk about what the movie is about, but also her process. The importance of documentarians today, how she shoots and edits everything herself, and the kind of work that she's doing as a documentarian and kind of get inside the process of a world class documentary filmmaker. So without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Susan Kucera. I'd like to welcome the show Susan Kucera. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Susan Kucera 3:47
Thanks for having me.

Alex Ferrari 3:49
So can you first off tell us how you got into the business?

Susan Kucera 3:53
Oh, my goodness. Um, well, it's kind of a long story. I mean, I i've been filming since I was nine. I started on a bolex. You know, by my side of my father's side on Athabaskan glacier, he was a geologist and we did a lot of filming for botanika films. And then fast forward a long, long time I was getting a divorce. And I was thinking okay, what am I going to do now? And the only thing I really knew how to do really well with film and the red one camera had just come out. Actually, it hadn't even come out. I got on the list to get one

Alex Ferrari 4:34
Right! with that box that they showed at.

Susan Kucera 4:37
Okay, I thought I could handle this this takes good old fashioned filmmaking you can actually use cinematic lenses you it's it was a lot like an actual film camera, not a point and shoot camera. And so I got it. I made a documentary called dumb trading on thin air and I thought oh, you know, just see if I can do this. And, and it got picked up by Netflix. And so I thought, Okay, I think I think I can probably do this. And so this film that I just did with Jeff, it's my fifth documentary. One of the ones I did though, was nonprofit. So that that didn't circulate in a lot of places. But it's been it's been a wonderful experience to last, what, 10 1012 years now.

Alex Ferrari 5:27
Now, what made you get interested more into documentary filmmaking as opposed to narrative filmmaking?

Susan Kucera 5:34
Well, I, that's a good question. I have written screenplays and I know how difficult it is to get films made. And when you're making Oh, yeah. I know.

Alex Ferrari 5:49
You have a screenplay, what?!

Susan Kucera 5:54
It's so funny, all these little points that take you in these different areas. So that's why I ended up with an agent because that screenplay had gotten some interest and, and I was still a full time mom then but as I said, divorce kind of forces you to get with the program. And I, she was able to find a home for my first documentary, my my agent, and that I just took off from there, and I really enjoy it. It's, I have one camera, I can move around with one camera and much more easily than, than a giant crew. And I film all the time. I just love I love the act of filming. And it's like kind of thing, right? You you're capturing things that are only exist in a split second, and aren't there again. So like the Grizzlies in the film. You can't cue a grizzly right. So I happen to be in the right place at the right time.

Alex Ferrari 6:58
You could try to work real well for you.

Susan Kucera 7:01
That's right. That's right. And and it's just it's an interesting process. All all of us documentary filmmakers just add to the cultural narrative, the best we can. And so it's very gratifying that way.

Alex Ferrari 7:16
And now what are you shooting? So what are you shooting with? Now you shoot with a red epic, or

Susan Kucera 7:20
It's a Epic W

Alex Ferrari 7:22
I can't keep track of them. There's too many.

Susan Kucera 7:24
I know, I know. Isn't that crazy? All the

Alex Ferrari 7:27
Dragon and monstro? Whatever?

Susan Kucera 7:30
I know, I guess on the upside, we get to recycle our hard drives. So there's no physical film in that sense, correct? Correct. It is. It is difficult. You you end up on a on this sort of treadmill? Absolutely. I'm done. I think I have the camera that I'll just keep for the rest of my life. So

Alex Ferrari 7:53
You say that now?

Susan Kucera 7:55
I'm definitely done.

Alex Ferrari 7:59
As long as it keeps working, you'll be fired.

Susan Kucera 8:01
Yes, exactly. That's right.

Alex Ferrari 8:03
Now, do you also edit your own work?

Susan Kucera 8:05
I do.

Alex Ferrari 8:06
What do you what do you caught on? And how do you feel that helps you as a documentarian because I know a lot of documentarians that don't have that skill, as far as document, shooting or editing. How is it working in the kind of work that you're doing?

Susan Kucera 8:20
Well, my process is very organic. And so I, if I edit myself, which I do, and I'm still on Final Cut 10 Okay. I'm not I'm not in the forward realm of whatever they're using now all the fancy stuff.

Alex Ferrari 8:39
But I'm assuming Final Cut. Will you the latest version of Final Cut? 10? Yeah, the latest version of final? It's a very powerful piece of software. Don't Don't knock it, it's

Susan Kucera 8:48
Ohh no, I'm not knocking it. I'm just laughing because a lot of people's Oh, you know, why are you still using that, and I it works.

Alex Ferrari 8:55
They just don't know, they just don't understand.

Susan Kucera 8:59
And so I become Obviously, I'm very familiar with the imagery that I have that already I have quite a I've been filming for 10 years. So I have a lot of imagery that I that I can get to know at my fingertips. So if I'd handed all of that to somebody else, I think that would be very difficult for them to try to navigate. And the the interviews, I used to transcribe all the interviews and I found that to be a little bit difficult because what people say when you read it, it's different than when it's in person and and how they say it, etc, etc. And so, I kind of gave up doing that and I just become very, very familiar with what all of my subjects are saying. And I do my best trying to weave weave a story together and i and i have i mean living in the futures past it's it is more on the poetic side. Although it certainly has a An impact on people when they see it.

Alex Ferrari 10:02
Now let's talk about that your latest film in the in the living in the future and futures past? How did it come about? And what is it all about? For people who don't know?

Susan Kucera 10:12
Well, it's a film, as Jeff likes to say it's a film that takes a good look under the hood of humanity. And we, we, we had a great executive producer, his name is Jim Swift, and I'd worked with him before. And actually, he's sort of had the thought of, well, you know, why do we do what we do in the face of large environmental issues that we are, you know, have in front of us? And so, we wanted to work with Jeff, and

Alex Ferrari 10:43
And who's this Jeff, you speak of?

Susan Kucera 10:45
Oh, Jeff Bridges.

Alex Ferrari 10:47
Is he a new actor, I haven't heard of him before.

Susan Kucera 10:51
He's one of these fly by night. He is such an amazing human being what a What a great gift. He came on board. And we started from scratch. And we created this beautiful piece of work. And we we did actually watch a lot of other documentaries, Jeff was very involved, we, we didn't want to just contribute another kind of Doomsday or scary thing that gives you a lot of information, but doesn't sort of, you know, you don't know, you just want to crawl into your bed after you hear that. So we start, we decided to look at the whole human meta story where we've been, where we are, where we're going. And we in, we have emergence in there, and entropy, and ecology and evolution, all the ease right energy, we looked at the flows of energy, how that actually works in our society. So it's just a really different and usual film, that you keep you keep thinking about it days later.

Alex Ferrari 12:02
Now, how, how did you get Jeff Bridges? legend like Jeff Bridges to be involved in your movie?

Susan Kucera 12:09
Well, as I said, we wanted to work with someone who had a name. And so my agent, actually was Jim, Jim thought of Jeff actually first, which is kind of cool. And agent did reach out to Jeff and Jeff watched another film that I had done called breath of life. And he liked it. And so I got a call, I was walking up the road, and I got a call. And it said, Oh, hey, just hang tight. I've got jeff bridges on the other line, and I set out totally out of the blue. And we just kind of hit it off on the phone. And we just, we just created this thing. And we we collaborated through FaceTime, we took our time because Jeff was working on a number of films. And so he would kind of disappear for a while and I would do stuff and then he would come back and I would show him stuff. And, and we we just went back and forth like this. And then as the film narrowed down towards the end, he he lends himself to the film too. So he's in it, he's in it as well.

Alex Ferrari 13:24
Yeah, that always helps. It definitely helps. So he's just not a narrator. He's actually on screen kind of taking you through a little bit of the journey.

Susan Kucera 13:33
Right. And I should have given my crew credit, because he actually carried the tripod when I felt

Alex Ferrari 13:41
Jeff's been just been doing this for how many years? I mean, since he was a kid, I mean, he's been around doing this stuff. So I'm sure he didn't mind picking up.

Susan Kucera 13:52
No, no, he really gave his all and it shows and the film I think we're both very proud of

Alex Ferrari 14:01
What do you hope? What are you hoping for with the film? What is your end goal with, with people who watched the film?

Susan Kucera 14:08
Well, we decided to shake things up a bit. As I said, we approach this in a different way. And when you go to see this film, you'll actually learn a lot about yourself, and not in a blaming way or your Why are you a human kind of way, but actually how your brain thinks how interesting things like talking about capitalism in terms of optimal foraging theory, which people often don't think about. Like if you're, if you're a wolf, right, you and you're spending energy, you don't want to spend the same amount of energy getting a mouse if you could spend the same amount of energy getting a deer and so and we look at that in terms of the stock market and just kind of how our whole society functions. Not not whether it's good or bad, just, you know, this is it. And so so, you know, interesting concepts like that we are, we're always looking at ourselves, comparing ourselves to how animals operate. And so you just you just get it interesting idea of humanity this way. And it also allows people who are feeling vulnerable. These are we meet people where they're feeling vulnerable. And we kind of look at why things are the way they are. And as I, as I said, for me, the whole energy aspect of it really opened my eyes. And so now I'm thinking about my decisions differently. I'm, I'm looking at the world differently, a politics everything. So it's just, it's just it's kind of eye opening is, as I mentioned,

Alex Ferrari 15:51
And well, first of all, how important are documentarians in today's world? I mean, there's so much stuff going on. We live in a crazy time. And I think sometimes the news is so busy covering the show, that it's difficult for them to actually do a lot of the journalistic things that they used to do back in the day, which, which aren't as flashy. And I think documentarians have picked up a little bit, if not a lot of that slack. Would you agree?

Susan Kucera 16:26
Oh, I definitely agree. If you can spend an hour and a half, unpacking a thought, right? or different aspects of something, you're certainly obviously gonna learn a lot more. And if you just got 10 or 15 minutes to listen to a soundbite, here or there. And so yeah, I guess documentaries do I mean, it's whatever turns our brain on, right. And people are, unfortunately, we're also busy. Sometimes it's hard to get the bigger picture. But if one can spend the time, put in the time, new ideas emerge. And I think that's the role of documentarians to an art also, I mean, this is an artistic film to art can sometimes shake us up and and make us jolt us out of our sort of typical way of thinking. And so that's another thing that we tried to do.

Alex Ferrari 17:21
Now you you you did um, do you read the cinematographer? On the film as well? Yes, yes, images are gorgeous in this film. They really, really stunning. I mean, how did you learn who taught you? or How did you teach yourself to make these amazing images, which are for most of them for the most part with natural light? I know I well. Money. Money Did you did you pay this on? How did it?

Susan Kucera 17:47
I would have loved to have had a crew, right? Oh, lights, everything. You made everything perfect. But if you're making a documentary, and you're on a budget, you have to get really creative. And so the film, I didn't go to China, and I didn't go to Dubai, there's some shots, a little shots, here and there. And there's obviously a lot of archival footage in there, too. And some stuff from NASA. But the rest is just when, as I said when I see things and they're unusual, and I have my camera with me. And so I've been able to capture things that you would have a hard time putting together with a crew. Right? Because you quickly Yeah, I utilize my daughter. You know, there's I utilize two dancers so we could kind of whenever I was trying to just show humanity and different aspects. I don't know you just get creative and you ended it came out well. But I think just because I've been filming since I was nine, I just I guess I just have an I

Alex Ferrari 18:51
Got it. Got it. Now there's a lot of archival footage in the film. Can you talk a little bit about the process of getting archival footage if like for documentary, a documentary is listening to finding archival footage dealing with the legalities of it buying it the whole the whole process? Because I think it's a little mysterious for a lot of people.

Susan Kucera 19:10
Yeah, it's it's not so bad. If you get to the level where you're actually releasing a film like we did in the theater, it's out in theaters today. Then you have to pay a little extra, and that's for the license license. But a lot of that archival stuff. Oh, I hope they don't mind me plugging them. They're called critical paths. And a lot of their footage is from the US government. It's in the public domain. And you pay them they've done all the work finding all of this stuff and making sure that it's broadcast safe, because a lot of it's obviously very old. And so that's a very good resource.

Alex Ferrari 19:53
And what's the name of it critical past critical past okay.com Yes, I will definitely put that in the show. notes because it's, it's rough. It's rough looking for footage, especially archival stuff for document for documentarians. Did you ever see the movie atomic cafe?

Susan Kucera 20:10
No, I didn't. Have you ever heard of it? I have heard of it.

Alex Ferrari 20:13
It's it's I saw it in my videos or when I was working there. It is a movie completely made of. Billy Oh, my entire movie is made. They told a narrative story with archival footage of the bomb dropping. And it's kind of like a satire.

Susan Kucera 20:31
Oh, interesting. I'll have to check that out. Yeah, I know, I would go on their website. And sometimes I've just get lost watching stuff. Wow, this is fascinating.

Alex Ferrari 20:41
How long by the way? How long? Did it take you to shoot this? I put it all together?

Susan Kucera 20:45
Um, well, let's see from the beginning of working with Jeff. That was about two and a half years ago, maybe a little longer. I mean, the film came out in festivals in February. And it's been in festivals since February. It traveled all over the world. Not me. But the felt.

Alex Ferrari 21:06
I know, it would be nice. If they would, they would let you go.

Susan Kucera 21:09
And the so I get a little fuzzy on the time. So yeah, I would say about two and a half years, it probably took a year to edit. And in doing so as in during the process of editing, obviously, I didn't have all the footage that I needed. So I thought, Okay, I'm gonna have to get other stuff I need, I need something, you know, just just something just right. So I would I would do that. But, but again, I'm just lucky I since I've had this camera, or, you know, this type of game. For some time, just being able to dig into my own library was extremely helpful.

Alex Ferrari 21:49
Right. And, and what I find so fascinating about your story is, you know, to find someone like Jeff, who's obviously a legend, and an Oscar winner, and all this kind of stuff, to be a part of a movie like this. You literally just had your agent call them and call his agent go, Hey, this is a project. And you people never think of just calling up and saying, hey, I've got a project. Maybe they'll be interested.

Susan Kucera 22:13
Right? I yeah, I don't know. We'd have to ask her. I don't know what her secret. But she was great. Yeah. And then he, he again, he watched something that I had done. But he he was really turned on by this subject, obviously. And and the subject that we were interested in telling, which was a little more in depth than just here's all the bad news. You know, what or what crawl into your bed now.

Alex Ferrari 22:38
We've had we have, we've had plenty of those documentaries. I've watched many of them. I'm like Jesus.

Susan Kucera 22:44
No, I yeah, it doesn't feel very well. Of course, information is helpful that we need that. But also, I think there's a quote in the film, it isn't so much what we're thinking about the world we live in, it's how we're thinking about the world we live in. And there's all sorts of interesting philosophy through this film, about how to just see things slightly differently. But then it's that but there's also a hard core here. Here's the reality. And we're obviously stuck with myth. resources the way they are energy. It is. And so it's it's sobering, but it's also exciting.

Alex Ferrari 23:26
Very cool. Now, I want to ask you a few questions. I asked all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker wanting to break into the business today?

Susan Kucera 23:36
Make a film. When I did, I invested in myself, I, I just decided I would. trading on thin air was my first film. And I didn't know if people would like it, but I gave it a try. And it was definitely low budget, but it worked out. Okay. So that's one option. Obviously, hooking up with interning with people who are are working in this field is really helpful. But getting out and doing it.

Alex Ferrari 24:08
Very good. Now, can you tell me what book had the biggest impact on your life or career?

Susan Kucera 24:14
Oh my gosh. Like I aside from the books that I've been reading lately, who are that are mostly from the people who are in the movie. Right? I don't know if I can even think back that far. Oh, my gosh,

Alex Ferrari 24:32
Any book that comes to mind that really had an impact.

Susan Kucera 24:34
I okay, so there's a there's a book by Timothy Morton that I actually read as I was sculpting this film. Man, I'd have to look up what it was. It's his latest book is called being ecological but there was before this one shoot, I don't have it handy in my mind. But he The reason it was so powerful his prose in there It really made you reach your you really had to think. And it was a challenge to get through and but when you come out the other end you have all these aha moments. So I yeah, I guess I just have to plug Timothy Morton's work. Okay. Very interesting. Yeah, philosophy.

Alex Ferrari 25:21
Now what lesson took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Susan Kucera 25:27
Oh, well, the moment I had my daughter, I realized that I really didn't know diddly squat.

Alex Ferrari 25:34
Kids have that effect on you.

Susan Kucera 25:38
And so, yeah, what she's 24 now she's working on her PhD. And I would say the process of watching another human being develop gives you some pause as to you? Well, gosh, it puts you in a vulnerable situation where you're having to reevaluate everything that you've learned everything in your life. And so I would say that that had a big impact on me.

Alex Ferrari 26:04
Where can people find out about the movie and more about your work?

Susan Kucera 26:08
Well, the movie is in theaters today. The next few days we had Trafalgar released it in at theaters. And then we are still in festivals after that. And then I believe it's out VOD, and everywhere you'll be where you see movies, typically in a month and a half or so from now.

Alex Ferrari 26:28
Okay, very cool. And anywhere people can find your work.

Susan Kucera 26:32
Yeah, breath of life is available. I think it's on Amazon and Hulu. I'm not sure all the places that it is, but it's easy to find. And trading on thin air was on Netflix came out in 2008. It was on Netflix for six years. And then I was asked if I wanted to report it out. And I didn't because it was my first work. And I thought the sound was okay, I don't really want people to but it was actually a good, fun, fun. good movie.

Alex Ferrari 27:04
Very good. Susan, thank you so much for taking the time out to talk. And thank you for making such a wonderful film. It's a very important film that needs to be done nowadays without question. But thank you for so much for sharing your your process with us.

Susan Kucera 27:16
Oh, no problem. Sorry for my my lack of memory in the moment here. But a wild ride with this theatrical. We're all just kind of fried.

Alex Ferrari 27:26
Not a problem at all. Thanks again.

Susan Kucera 27:28
All right, thanks.

Alex Ferrari 27:30
I want to thank Susan for coming on and sharing her process with us. Thank you so much again, Susan. And you guys, I've seen the movie if you haven't seen it. Living in the futures past is a wonderful documentary about the world about where we're going or where we've been. And hopefully, it'll do some good out there. And if you want to get access to the movie, check it out. In theaters, it's out today. And and it will be about in VOD in the next month or so. But if you want to go to the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com/270, you will get all the links to everything we talked about in the episode including thecriticalpath.com which is an amazing archival site if you are doing documentaries as well. So that's it for another one, guys. Thank you so much for listening, and more stuff coming on IFH TV, I promise you, I cannot wait to show you everything I'm working on getting the apps on right now onto Apple TV, Roku, and Amazon. So I'm hoping they're going to be available when we launched November 1. If not, they'll be available right soon after. But of course, you'll have access to it on the web. And then we'll worry about the other apps and stuff later on coming up in the next few weeks after that, so it's going to be crazy. And we have some just insane content. I can't wait to share it with you guys. I'm so so excited. So thanks again for all the support guys. And as always, keep that also going keep the dream alive and I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 258: Making Money with Documentaries & Sriracha with Griffin Hammond

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Today on the show we have an OG in the online filmmaking education space, Griffin Hammond. I’ve followed Griffin for years and was so excited to sit down and talk shop with him. Griffin Hammond is a documentary filmmaker in New York City, known for producing DIY filmmaking tutorials for indie filmmakers, and his award-winning documentary Sriracha. We discuss how he made over $90,000 with a documentary short film.

In 2014, Griffin moved from Bloomington, Illinois to New York City to cover the U.S. presidential election for the Bloomberg Television/MSNBC show With All Due Respect.

The University of Southern California and the U.S. State Department named Griffin a Film Envoy for the 2017 American Film Showcase—a cultural diplomacy program that sends independent filmmakers around the world to teach.

Previously, he worked for YouTube Next Lab, as executive producer of the YouTube channel Indy Mogul, and started his career as a video producer and social media strategist at State Farm Insurance.

Griffin Hammond studied film at New York University, earned a Masters in Communication from Illinois State University, taught video production at Millikin University, and produced an online course—Shooting Documentary Short Films.

Enjoy my conversation with Griffin Hammond.

Alex Ferrari 0:01
Now today on the show, we have an OG in the DIY filmmaking movement on YouTube. His name is Griffin Hammond. Many of you guys who are listening to me probably already know him. He used to be the host on the YouTube channel Indy Mogul where he was dishing out amazing tutorials and education on about how to make films cheaply and do it yourself. And he just really done a lot for the filmmaking community. And I've followed him for many years, even before I started indie film hustle. And I've always wanted to talk to Griffin and I finally got an opportunity to bring him on the show. And I had the pleasure of being on his show as well, where he asked me a whole bunch of questions about on the corner of ego and desire. So that's also in the show notes if you guys want to listen to our conversation about that. But Griffin is an amazing human being. And he created a cool cool documentary called siracha, which is basically the origin story of the condiment that has a cult following around the world. And he made obscene amounts of money with it. And we talked about how he did it, what kind of revenue streams it did, how he goes about making documentary films, and even has a course on Creative live about how to make documentary films, or documentaries short films. And I'll put a link about that in the show notes. But without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Griffin Hammond. I'd like to welcome to the show Griffin Hammond. Man, thank you so so much for being on the show.

Griffin Hammond 3:26
Of course. I'm happy to be here, Alex. Thank you.

Alex Ferrari 3:29
I was on I had the pleasure of being on your show a few weeks ago. And I said, Well, you have to be on my show. And conference like fine.

Griffin Hammond 3:41
No, I'm sure it was an immediate Yes. Happy to have you on my show. And thank you for returning the favor.

Alex Ferrari 3:47
No, absolutely. I followed your stuff for years. Even before indie film, hustle, I always found you out. I kind of found you on YouTube, which we'll get into in a minute. But first and foremost, how did you get into the film industry in the first place?

Griffin Hammond 4:03
I've been into video production ever since high school. That's when I learned how to edit in Premiere. And then I was lucky enough to get into NYU film school. Nice. And I was immature enough to fail out of NYU film.

Alex Ferrari 4:18
Nice even nicer.

Griffin Hammond 4:20
Even nice like that. Yeah, I mean, turns out you have to go to class to get a degree.

Alex Ferrari 4:25
You literally failed out of NYU. That's That's brilliant, man. Seriously. I'm very proud of you.

Griffin Hammond 4:30
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, part of it was like my own hubris. Like I think I got there in my freshman year. I wasn't I didn't feel very challenged. I felt like I already know how to edit or know how to shoot. Like, I feel like we're kind of going over the things I've already learned how to do and I think I'm sure if I just stuck with it. And gone to all my classes sophomore year, I would have learned all the advanced stuff that I was craving.

Alex Ferrari 4:52
But you would have Martin Scorsese as a teacher and Spike Lee in and you know all those guys right? But no, no, no. I don't want to learn Learn how to edit. I know that right? Well, I mean, you come from your, your, the generation behind my generation. So you kind of grew up with, with this technology and at a much younger age. I mean, by the time I got to the I was already in my 20s. And nonlinear editing system was nonlinear editing was just getting off the crap. Right? Yeah. So I mean, in high school would have killed I was I was cutting between VCRs shooting on my high eight camera. Yeah. Yeah. Back in the day. So yeah, I can imagine how it might be frustrating. First year in film school going. This is a camera. This is editing tech. I can imagine there might be a little bit the vaccine on your on your on your psyche. So then what happened? So after you after you filled out what happened?

Griffin Hammond 5:46
Well, I moved to San Diego for a little bit. That's where my parents were living. And I didn't really like it there. So I ended up going back to the Midwest where I went to high school, I went to the school that all my friends were at Illinois State University, which is not a film school. It's just a regular public, four year university. So I became a television major and I started doing live television news in Bloomington, Illinois. Actually, the town, that's the big town, the small town where the school is called normal Illinois.

Alex Ferrari 6:15
Nice, great name,great name.

Griffin Hammond 6:18
And it turned out that was probably the skill set. I needed more so than the commercial fiction film skills. I was learning at NYU, because I think I hadn't realized that yet. But I probably wasn't into narrative filmmaking so much as nonfiction. And so I met some professors at ISU that were really into documentary, I started learning a lot of news gathering techniques. And that became the skill set that I needed for what I now do,

Alex Ferrari 6:47
Which is documentary films.

Griffin Hammond 6:49
Yeah, yeah. gravitate,

Alex Ferrari 6:51
And you do documentary films, do features as well, or just short form.

Griffin Hammond 6:57
I haven't done a feature, my longest film is Sriracha, which is 33 minutes. And I kind of consider that a feature for myself. Because I'm, I'm a little bit add when it comes to editing. And, like, I mean, that that to me long enough to make anyway took me eight months to make that. And I just wouldn't do stand watching it for much longer than 33 minutes. Like that was kind of the pace, I wanted to create it. So I can't really imagine making a 90 minute film, I think just from my editing style, I would try to cram too much in and I wouldn't let it breathe enough to be a feature.

Alex Ferrari 7:29
Got it? Got it. Well, so. So after you after your time in the TV world, you you fell into this, this world of YouTube. Can you tell it's because that's kind of where you made your bones and kind of got your name out there if I'm not mistaken, right?

Griffin Hammond 7:47
Yeah, I I'm friends with this guy, Justin Johnson, who has made a bunch of really interesting websites over the years like online video contests.com and film fights.com where I was competing with people and learning. This is what I was doing. When I wasn't going to class. I was making videos on film fights calm, to compete against other young college students around the country. Right. And Justin also created with his friend Eric back, the YouTube channel, Indy Mogul and Indy Mogul have been running for a few years. And then Google decided to buy it. YouTube actually bought next new networks, the company that was running it. And so just America at that point, didn't really like the prospect of working for a bigger company when they've been worked with little tiny companies. So they decided it was time to leave. And they recommended that I take over Indy Mogul and Justin had been looking for ways to collaborate and give me work over the years and I had a stable job at an insurance company producing videos. And finally, I thought if I don't take this job, that Justin's offering me, he's gonna stop offering me jobs. Right. So I decided to be brave enough to leave my 40 hour week. Very stable job, I could have had a whole career there and decided to go work for YouTube.

Alex Ferrari 9:04
And you weren't, were you happy in that other job?

Griffin Hammond 9:08
Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm a very optimistic person. And I, I've had a lot of great jobs. And I think I could be happy in a lot of kinds of jobs. I was very happy there. I mean, it's, it's a world where I was given a lot of opportunity. I was shooting videos, at major events, like around the President and I worked on with William Shatner on a short film, like the company really let me travel and do some exciting things. But I didn't yet feel like I call myself a filmmaker. I was a videographer. And then indie mobile, you kind of did you were one of the what you was that by the way. I started it. I think any mobile started in 2007. And I started there in 2011. Okay, and then and then you just started putting out how to videos basically on any mobile, educating film, right. A lot of people knew it for its For Eric Beck's show backyard effects, and he's this really talented creator of props, and you know, he has all those artsy skills. And I've never really felt like much of an artist. So I knew I couldn't come in and do that. So I decided I would do, you know, talk about the things that I've learned. But I also started to learn a lot myself and try to share those skills. So it was a lot of camera techniques and information about lenses and microphones and how to build your own lights and things like that.

Alex Ferrari 10:28
And there wasn't a lot of that going on back then if I'm not mistaken, right?

Griffin Hammond 10:33
Yeah, not too much. I mean, yeah, it was kind of a small group of people, or I kind of knew everyone else that was doing that. And, yeah, it was a great, a great community that I was really fortunate to inherit from Indy Mogul. And it grew while I was there, but like, yeah, arguably, none of the audience I have today would exist if it weren't for that kind of incubation period that I had.

Alex Ferrari 10:57
And how long were you there for two years, for two years making YouTube videos that that's insane. That's awesome. It's a great job to get paid to make YouTube videos. That's a really good job if you can get that if you can get it. But your heart is really in documentary filmmaking. Correct.

Griffin Hammond 11:14
I mean, there's a lot of things I love I'm, it's hard for me to focus on one thing. So I kind of like the balance right now that I have in my career of making tutorial videos, doing a podcast doing work for clients doing documentary work for myself. I did a little bit of journalism. I was, uh, I was covering the presidential election or for 2014 until Election Day.

Alex Ferrari 11:36
Oh, that must have been a heck of a run. It was insane. Must have around everyone who was running for president all the time. Oh, my God, that must have been crazy.

Griffin Hammond 11:48
Yeah. So if I were to add Donald Trump's election night victory party, I went because I thought he was going to lose, right. I thought it'd be interesting to be at the losing party. I mean, he thought he was gonna lose. Everybody was early in the night.

Alex Ferrari 12:00
Oh, where are they? Where are they really?

Griffin Hammond 12:02
Yeah, at 7pm. When we arrived, no one was at the party. Like no one had really arrived. Yeah, people were not like excited to get to this party. And most people were there by about 9pm. And around like, 930 10 is when the narrative started to change. But yeah, by 7pm. Like Boris Epstein, one of his campaign advisors was like, kind of laughing with us like, yeah, we're gonna do real Well, tonight.

Alex Ferrari 12:27
What? Are you doing anything with that footage? Or were you on assignment for somebody?

Griffin Hammond 12:35
I was on assignment for Bloomberg Television. So that stuff was being turned around real fast. Everything I shot over two years was going on the air about two days later.

Alex Ferrari 12:45
That must have been awesome. That must have been, that's a pretty good day

Griffin Hammond 12:48
On my workflow. Yeah, that was it. That was an amazing job. And that was what brought me back to New York after failing out of NYU, like 10 years later, I moved back to New York, because Bloomberg hired me to do this. And it's because they'd seen my film Sriracha.

Alex Ferrari 13:05
Well, before we get to Sriracha, because we're gonna go deep down the rabbit hole on Sriracha, in your opinion, what makes a good documentary? What makes a good documentary short or Documentary Feature? In your opinion?

Griffin Hammond 13:16
I mean, I just think I mean, I'm sure it's the same with with narrative. It's just, it's good characters. Because, I mean, the things I like about documentary are the shooting, I like, you know, capturing beautiful shots. And I like conveying facts. I like learning a lot. I mean, that's probably what draws me to documentaries. I'm curious. And I have a lot of questions. And I want to answer those questions. And I'm excited to share the answers to those questions in a film, but ultimately, I can make a film that's full of great shots and really interesting facts. And that would get me about halfway there. But I think unless you have a great character, it's not going to be a compelling story. I mean, to be a character who needs something and we go on that journey to discover if they find it or not.

Alex Ferrari 14:01
Very cool. Now what kind of equipment Do you generally use on your on your shoots?

Griffin Hammond 14:06
I these days, I'm shooting with a Panasonic GH five. And I've been using the GH line of cameras ever since the first one. I had the GH 1234 and five

Alex Ferrari 14:18
And just basically you just go out there with a lens, the GH five and what do you do for audio?

Griffin Hammond 14:26
My audio is usually a shotgun mic and in a zoom recorder I used to use a h4 n back when I started with the GH one. Eventually I switched to the h5 because I like it more. But yeah, most of the time, you know when I was doing news, it was as simple as hand holding a camera in my left hand over my shoulder and holding a shotgun mic in front of my interview subjects and just asking them to look at me. And then I'd have a zoom recorder like hanging in a messenger bag off my off my shoulder

Alex Ferrari 15:00
So you mean as opposed to duck? I suppose a narrative documentary is really you can go out with basically a camera lens, a recorder and a mic. And you can go out and make something. Oh, yeah, if you're if you're trying to tell a good story, it's not nearly as complex, technically, to do a documentary as well as to do a narrative.

Griffin Hammond 15:20
Well, I love one things I love about news gathering is sometimes I would go out, and it would just be a mess, you know, everything's handheld. And I'm not getting exactly what I want. Maybe I have an idea that there's a story, but it turns into a completely different story. I like the documentary, you can always save it, you can always tell the story of how it all fell apart. There's always like a behind the scenes story, you can tell too. So you can always take the footage you have and find a way to turn it into a story. Whereas you go out and try to shoot your narrative. I mean, I know you change it up a little bit as you go. But if you fail to get a scene, now you're really in trouble. You got to figure out a way to go reshoot it. Whereas in documentary, I think you kind of kind of fudge it a little bit.

Alex Ferrari 16:06
That makes perfect sense. Now let's get into Sriracha. Man, how did how does Sriracha come about? Tell me all about Sriracha?

Griffin Hammond 16:14
Well, he was at the end of, I guess it was a year into doing indie mogul. And I think I kind of realized I aspired to be a filmmaker, but didn't yet feel like I had earned that title for myself. For me, the way I defined it, I just knew that I needed to go to a film festival and show something on a big screen. And I realized, I had made 1000s of pieces of art, video art over the years, but nothing that was intended for a theater audience. And so I felt like I needed to cross that barrier. And so coming back from a film festival in 2013, I just felt especially inspired like, you know, I think I'm good enough. Now I think I've honed my skills, I have all the equipment, I should just make something. And I thought about the category of that I like in festivals, which is short, the short documentary sections, and then just start thinking about things I love, because everyone says make films for the things you love. And really high on my list of things was Sriracha hot sauce.

Alex Ferrari 17:14
Of course, obviously. Obviously, you want to make a documentary about a hot sauce. It's an obvious topic for

Griffin Hammond 17:24
Well, it's funny cuz like, you know, there's, I mean, I'm a runner. So I thought about, like, you know, is there something in there like a running category? Could I go to Greece and make a film about like the origin of the marathon?

Alex Ferrari 17:34
Yes, yes. Yeah, absolutely. Why don't I do that? I want to go to Greece right now.

Griffin Hammond 17:41
Right? There's a lot of things in my life, I could just look around and say, I'm excited about that. I want to learn more. But Serato started almost as a joke in my mind like, well, that's interesting. That is something that I do interact with every day. I'm kind of excited about it. But the more I thought about it, I realized, I have a lot of questions. And I think the same people that are passionate about this thing is a lot of people that consider themselves fans of this hot sauce, who would probably go out wearing a T shirt that says I love Serato. And yet those same people might not necessarily know even basic facts about it, like what country it comes from, or who makes it. And the more I thought about it, I realized like that's the perfect place for a documentary to live somewhere between passion and that void of information. And that and that is a very cultish audience of four siracha if I'm not mistaken.

Alex Ferrari 18:36
Yeah, I mean, people have merchandise and choose their bad handbags. It's insane.

Griffin Hammond 18:44
And that's kind of what I thought the film was going to be. I thought, I'll make a film about how crazy the fans are. Like, I kind of imagined when I was designing the film, in my mind that I'll find a wedding couple of bride and groom that have like siracha flavored wedding cake or something like that's the kind of thing this film is going to be about. Ultimately, I never found that and David Tran, the guy who makes Raja ended up being a really compelling story. And it's good because I think if I tried to make the film about silly fans, and never really focused on one strong character would have not been as good. So then you actually approached the company, and you approached him and said, Hey, I want to make a documentary about you. And they just said,

Alex Ferrari 19:25
Sure, come right on in.

Griffin Hammond 19:28
They did not say sure. No hit for all right. I mean, I, I started by connecting with like, Python foods didn't even have a very strong Well, they didn't have any social media presence. So it was kind of hard to even connect with them at first.

Alex Ferrari 19:42
That's even crazy like that. That product is built for social media.

Griffin Hammond 19:47
Yeah, this is it's killing it in the I mean, it was probably number two behind Tabasco maybe still is. It's like, you know, dominating the US market of autos. And yeah, they don't have an up to A website that didn't have social media back then. So I went to this guy, Randy Clemens, who's the author of the serata cookbook. And he was kind of my point person for everything. Serato because he had been, ever since he wrote the cookbook, he'd been blogging about everything. Serato. So he was the guy that knew all the characters in this universe. He knew all the things I might want to include in a film. And so I kind of I think I may have even scheduled an interview with him. On the books before I even contacted David Tran. And he then he gave me the contact information for data Tran. Like I said, David said, No.

Alex Ferrari 20:33
And then how did you convince them?

Griffin Hammond 20:36
Well, I went back to Randy and I said, So David said, No, what do I do. And he helped me kind of understand a little bit more in his limited dealings with David Tran that he had had he, he helped me understand maybe what some of his motivations are, like, you know, go back to him and say that you I mean, it's true, go back and tell him that you really loves his product. And you're doing this because you have a love for his story. You're not doing this for the money or something, you're not trying to exploit him, you're just doing it out of this, like pure place of love. And I also really heavily weighed on the fact that I'm an independent filmmaker, it'll just be me showing up with a small camera, a tripod and a light. And it's not going to be a big production, it's not going to interrupt your business. And I think that was what he wanted to hear. Then he started out a lot of questions for me like, okay, now this sounds possible, and it won't be problematic. So let's figure out if this we can do this. So you basically shot that whole movie by yourself. In the end, I ended up bringing a friend of mine to operate the camera during my interviews, like I would set up the shot on the tripod, set of lighting, and then I would be the one holding a microphone in front of David interviewing him. So I there was, I did have an assistant for much of it. But you know, I think 90% of the role I just shot myself handheld. with anyone else around

Alex Ferrari 21:56
And you traveled as well, you traveled around the world.

Griffin Hammond 22:00
Yeah, it started with a trip to California, that's where the factory is. And that's where much of it shot. But then I also went to Chicago because that's near where I was living and picked up a few things there went to some restaurants there. We did a Kickstarter, eventually, that was successful, and I earned a little bit more money than I thought I would. So then I added a trip to New York and a trip to Thailand, where really The story begins. I could have probably figured out a way to tell it without going to Thailand.

Alex Ferrari 22:27
But why? Why would you do something? But why would you? Not? I mean, seriously, because even even from what I've seen of the trailer, I haven't seen that I haven't gotten a chance to see the movie yet. But from the trailer, you're you're on the boat, you're driving in the little boat and like you can't get B roll of that.

Griffin Hammond 22:43
That's that's probably there's literally a town in Thailand called Sriracha and the name comes from?

Alex Ferrari 22:50
Of course it is of course it is. Yeah. So you you work eight months putting this beast together. Now, what was your marketing plan for the film? How did you How were you going to get the word out on this movie? I had zero marketing plan going nastic. Fantastic. Thank you. It was a fantastic interview. Thank you so much for being on the show. Griffin, it's been fantastic. Thank you. Well, don't call me.

Griffin Hammond 23:16
The original goal for this was to get into film festivals. And maybe the auxilary goal was to have a film. At the end of it, you know, I just I thought I I was I was confident that I could make something I'd be proud of. And this would be a good investment in myself, just having something that shows what I can do. And along the way, the goals changed a little bit. I eventually realized that there was an audience for this I made the film festivals didn't need to be my primary goal. Just getting this in front of people on the internet was the primary goal. But I got really lucky. early on. I told you that I interviewed Randy Clemens early on in the film. And he is a cookbook author and a freelance writer in Los Angeles. Now he lives in New Hampshire. But at the time, he was so excited to be in the documentary that he just you know, he took a selfie of himself and posted on Facebook and said, hey, look, I'm going to be in a documentary about Saracen and a lot of his friends where LA area freelance writers. And so someone wrote an article in a small publication called OC weekly, just based on the fact that they had seen this Facebook post from Randy. And that got noticed by I think the LA Times and they wrote an article. And the Huffington Post noticed it in LA Times. And then they wrote an article. And once Huffington Post wrote an article then everyone wrote an article, I think it was in the Associated Press. And I mean, it was all over the country. Wow. And it was insane because the narrative, it was all because of Serato it was because Serato was attached that that name was attached

Alex Ferrari 24:56
You leveraging the brand name Absolutely.

Griffin Hammond 24:58
Right. I mean, I didn't have to do anything. It was just the excitement of there's going to be a Sriracha movie like that was literally half the headlines. And I just thought it's insane because you would never write the article, independent documentary filmmaker from Illinois begins production on his short doc.

Alex Ferrari 25:21
Yeah, generally, that's not the way these things are written. Right?

Griffin Hammond 25:27
It was all because I picked a topic that people were excited about. And maybe I mean, I, I did it because that's what I was passionate about. But I also got lucky and happened to do it, right. It's probably its peak moment in pop culture.

Alex Ferrari 25:40
And also, I mean, and I don't want to kind of fly by this. But that was a, you weren't being strategic about it. But it was a strategic move, because you were leveraging a brand that so many people know that the marketing will be done for you almost purely because of the subject matter is the same if I would make a Trader Joe's documentary on the inside workings of Trader Joe's, right, which is people are super passionate about Trader Joe's in California, but also around the country, or other companies like Lego or whatever. You know, and if there hasn't been anything about that topic, or about that company or about that product, people are starving, because there's a there's a fan base waiting for it. So you have an audience waiting to spend money on this. So it is strategic, what you did. And I think good advice for other filmmakers is if you could find a topic, or product or company that you want to kind of go into that no one's really touched yet. Because there is no other Serato. Doc right. You are it?

Griffin Hammond 26:45
Right. Yeah, my only real competition these days. And most of it came years later is like other news stories that people you know, like CBS News eventually went into the factory and ABC News one factory.

Alex Ferrari 26:57
Right. But that's not to say, it says this right, Griffin in the I'm still the only documentary official documentary that's been felled,

Griffin Hammond 27:05
Or someone's come along and make a feature. And that would, you know, knock out a feature. So you can kind of compete differently.

Alex Ferrari 27:11
But you've already Yeah, this is this is this was released in 2013. Yeah, well, alright, so the movie has been released now. So now you went to festivals, you won some awards? How did you? I'm assuming you own it. You didn't sell it to a distributor or anything like that. You own all the rights, though?

Griffin Hammond 27:26
I do. Yeah, I worked with a couple distributors. One of them is completely shady and didn't pay me.

Alex Ferrari 27:33
No, that's that. That doesn't sound like distributors at all.

Griffin Hammond 27:40
And the other one is a distributor in the New York area called Janssen. But again, I didn't sell it to them, I worked with two different distributors, and I let them assign non exclusive deals. I kind of just wanted to see if they could do anything for me. And they did a little bit, but I think the majority of the revenue I generated was self distribution. And then what are the revenue streams that you were able to create for the film? The first one, and still the biggest one, I think is Vimeo. Okay. Vimeo on demand had just started when I when I came out Serato. I think I'd only been out for a couple months.

Alex Ferrari 28:19
So you jumped in at the right time.

Griffin Hammond 28:21
Yeah. And it was great, because not only I picked it, because I like Vimeo I was uploading my film to a couple different platforms and just found that I liked the quality at that point in time. And I like the feature set. I was a little bit worried that people would have to create Vimeo accounts, you know, it's just like more steps to stop people from purchasing. But it seemed like a good platform. And they were also willing to do a lot to help me because it was such a new platform they were willing to. They did a little bit of promotion. They put it they they translated it into a few different languages. We get subtitles in other languages. They did some nice things like that. They even like put it in a trailer during South by Southwest. I didn't get into South Bay, which was the whole point of making film and played part of my film for another book.

Alex Ferrari 29:10
Oh, yeah, I know the feeling of not getting into big festivals, man. It's I think we've all gone through that everyone listening has gone through that at one point or another. I'm assuming you submitted to Sundance as well.

Griffin Hammond 29:22
I I only finished the film in November. Oh, so I think I only hit like the late south by deadline. I definitely flew past the Sundance Sundance deadline.

Alex Ferrari 29:34
Yeah. Okay, so with Vimeo. You also mentioned in one of your articles, you wrote that Vimeo has the best profit margin in the business in regards to like sharing revenues with with with the platform. Can you can you explain that a little bit?

Griffin Hammond 29:49
Yeah, I mean, that was really one of the primary drivers for why I chose it in the first place is that I think they only take 10% as their commission whereas think iTunes, isn't that Like 15, or no, iTunes is like 30%. Right?

Alex Ferrari 30:05
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. Amazon's like, almost 50.

Griffin Hammond 30:18
Right? Yeah. I mean, that's pretty common for these rev shares to be almost, you know, close to 50%. Right. And so Vimeo, they take 10%. And then there's also a little transaction fee in there. So in the end, it works out to I currently sell it for 299. And when someone buys it, I get $2.30.

Alex Ferrari 30:35
Okay, which is awesome. Yeah. And oh, and how many did you how many views did you sell on that?

Griffin Hammond 30:43
on that? Last time I counted it, which was at the end of 2017. Right? Or no end of 2016? I think actually, is I had sold 7200. Sales on Vimeo. Okay, so that worked out to be a profit of $23,000.

Alex Ferrari 31:03
That's not bad. Now, I'll take it. I'll take it.

Griffin Hammond 31:09
Now, did you that was where I really focused my sales at the beginning. Like, I had done a Kickstarter campaign, there were 1300 people who backed it. So I also made revenue that way, as well. But those people saw it first about two weeks before I released it to the public. And so I kind of did a big launch, you know, I let these 1300 people know, it's going to come out to the public in two weeks on Vimeo, go tell all your friends, I went back to all the reporters that had ever written about it. And I, you know, I made them be responsible by writing about it again, it's kind of like, if you cared about, hey, there's gonna be a Serato movie so many months ago, surely you want to write the article that now it's available? Right? Like, most of them did? Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 31:51
That's awesome. That's awesome. And then so you focused all your so all your marketing efforts, was focused on one platform at the beginning.

Griffin Hammond 31:59
Right, yeah, it was just having a big premiere. And I think in that first, the first two months, I did maybe $15,000 worth of sales. I think most of the money that I've made on Vimeo happened pretty early on,

Alex Ferrari 32:12
It's generally the way it works with with those kind of platforms. And then you then ventured out into iTunes and other places, as far as transactional.

Griffin Hammond 32:22
Yeah, I just when I got around to it after I was done, it was like a full time job during the Kickstarter campaign, full time job releasing on Vimeo and then a full time job just doing kind of customer service for a few months and answering people's questions and doing press. I mean, that was lucky for me, I was getting a lot of press afterward to for a while I just became like the go to Saroja. expert, and they were in the news a little bit here and there. So like NPR would call me up and interview me.

Alex Ferrari 32:49
That's not that's not a bad place to be. Right? That's not a bad place to be. So then Alright, so then, but you did eventually go out to iTunes and other places like that. And you made some revenue out of those?

Griffin Hammond 33:00
Yeah, eventually, I realized I could go to an aggregator I went to premiere digital. Sure. And I paid them. I think it was $250 for each platform to put my short film on there. So it was 250. To get it on iTunes. It was 250 to get on Amazon. And so we did both at once. I didn't do prime at first, I just did Amazon Video on Demand thinking I don't want to cannibalize all my Vimeo sales, give it away for free.

Alex Ferrari 33:26
Was that a foolish thing? To think? It was? Explain logically, it makes why Yeah, there's a lot of people who listen to this podcast that I've heard them tell me that like, Oh, I'm afraid of putting it on prime or or free, subscription based model based on an advertiser or you get an A VOD model. Because you're like, it's gonna cannibalize your transactional, will you make more money? Right. But in the in the lifestyle in the life cycle of a movie? Don't do that on the month one. You could do that a month three or four? Because a lot of your money transactionally has already been made. Correct? Yeah, exactly. So then, so then what did so how did it do the second you put it up on Amazon Prime?

Griffin Hammond 34:14
Before I put on prime it was, you know, just getting a few sales. It wasn't very many. I think in total, let's see, what do I have? In total ever? It sold 1300 copies on Amazon. Actually, that sounds pretty good. But actually, compared to some of my other platforms. And it wasn't very quick at first either. In fact, my Amazon Instant Video has probably gone up since I opened it up on prime. But I just I thought about how I I'm a prime user, and I don't ever buy movies when there's all these free movies on there. And so it just made me realize, you know, I always had to put myself in my audience's shoes like how could Why? Why would I expect anyone to buy it there? So I asked premier digital to flip the switch for Prime I mean, it's already on Amazon, we need to make it available for Prime And as soon as they did it, it's just like the floodgates opened. And I told you I had 1300 sales on Amazon Instant Video. Since I opened it up on prime. I've had 230,000 views on amazon prime. That's a lot of views. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 35:18
And how much downside is Yeah.

Griffin Hammond 35:22
Yeah, they don't give you as much. But you get like 10 cents per view, I imagine is just the share of the, the Amazon Prime subscription cost. Which sounds terrible compared to Vimeo where I'm making 230 per purchase, but the audience size is just huge on Amazon in a way that Vimeo isn't. And so 20 you know, 230,000 people watching, it translates $23,000. That's not bad.

Alex Ferrari 35:47
That's not bad at all. That's insane. And that's a little bit more than you get on on YouTube.

Griffin Hammond 35:54
Oh, yeah, a ton more. I think the funny thing is, when I first came out with the film, I think my Kickstarter campaign, I charged $5 for it. And I think a few months later, I dropped the price to three. But when I first launched it on Vimeo, it was a $5 film because I didn't want to, I felt like it'd be really unfair to have people pre ordered for five and then lower the price right away. Release it, right. So I charged $5 for it. And a lot of people on Reddit, I remember there was some some article that someone had written about my film, and people in the Reddit comments, were saying, like, $5 That's ridiculous. Why would you ever spend that much on a film? Short Film especially and I agreed, in some sense, like, you're gonna go to the movie theater and spend $10 on a big budget feature. I understand why you don't want to spend $5 on my short film. But it's weird how on Kickstarter, $5 was really cheap, because other people are charging like ridiculous, like $30 for their short film. And on, you know, on Vimeo, maybe that's too much for some people are the same people were saying, like, once you just put on YouTube, you'll make a ton of revenue. That's like, were you kidding me? Like, I think I did put it on YouTube. I put my director's commentary version on YouTube. And I think I make a fifth of a penny every time someone watches it. so ridiculous.

Alex Ferrari 37:16
It's ridiculous. And then you also got it on Hulu. Tell me the story about that.

Griffin Hammond 37:22
Yeah, I think at the time, in retrospect, I realized I could have just also asked premier digital that aggregator to put it on Hulu as well. And I could have it would have been smarter because I could have paid them a one time fee. And I would have made all of the revenue from Hulu. But I think Hulu is a similar model to Amazon. It's like 10 cents per view. It's ad based for was at the time at the time and yeah, yeah. Now it's more subscriber base. And so but I didn't put it on Hulu. It was actually Janssens idea. One of my distributors to put on Hulu, and their fee, Jensen's fee is 30%. Of course. So I made a fair amount of revenue on Hulu. It looks like it earned 21,000 on Hulu, and then I got 15,000. That

Alex Ferrari 38:11
Still not bad, man. Still not bad. Yeah. So. So then overall, oh, by the way, how about DVDs and blu rays? Because I know you did that.

Griffin Hammond 38:22
Yeah, I did a lot of those because I let's see it started as I think blu rays were a were a Kickstarter reward. So I must have started with like, 400 of those and sold a bunch of those for the Kickstarter. And then I think I bought another 200. I think in total, I sold about 200 or 600 blu rays. And I can't remember how many TVs were

Alex Ferrari 38:43
Actually in people who are actually buying those at like 15 bucks a pop?

Griffin Hammond 38:48
Yeah, let's see, I think it was like $10 for the DVDs and something like 15 or 20 for the blu rays. And yeah, there are people that want physical media, I was not one of them. At the time, I was kind of like, I'm only doing this because people are asking me for them.

Alex Ferrari 39:01
Because it's a pain in the butt.

Griffin Hammond 39:03
Yeah, it's a total pain in the butt. I mean, in a way, it's kind of fun to have this physical object that represents your film, it's kind of a nice souvenir by the profit margin is really low. I think I calculate in the end, after all my you know, the shipping costs, I'm printing the

Alex Ferrari 39:21
Covers and these

Griffin Hammond 39:22
Discs, and then eventually, one of my big fees was once I put my film on amazon prime, there was kind of an incentive to sell my film on Amazon, the physical media, because it all is this one unified page. People can watch it digitally or they can buy it. And I wanted it to be available as a prime purchase you get in two days, and that requires that you actually send your inventory. Right, but they charge you like I mean,

Alex Ferrari 39:53
Storage fees.

Griffin Hammond 39:54
Yeah, storage fees, and then sales fees and all that. So in the end, I'm barely making $1 on These things, but

Alex Ferrari 40:01
And we'll end with a lot of headache as opposed to the digital release, which is a lot easier.

Griffin Hammond 40:06
Yeah, I mean, digital, you can sell 1000 or 5000. And there's really no difference.

Alex Ferrari 40:12
Now, did film festivals actually help or hurt your film in any way? Like that? Yeah, cuz it's expensive to go to these things.

Griffin Hammond 40:21
Yeah, super expensive just enter even. And then I went to a lot of film festivals early on because again, that was kind of a goal of making the film. And that was really rewarding to see it on screens and hear people react to it. I mean, I wouldn't undo that. But it's definitely expensive. And it's hard to quantify what that did, if anything for the film. I mean, it won a couple of awards. And you know, I could put all the laurels on my DVD cover, and maybe some more people buy it because they see the laurels next to it on Vimeo. But it's hard to say maybe, maybe it doesn't matter at all.

Alex Ferrari 40:57
Now, overall, are you happy with your final experience of making the documentary releasing the documentary? Was it financially rewarding? I'm sure you didn't retire off of it. But overall, you know, was it a positive experience?

Griffin Hammond 41:12
Yeah, I've been teaching a lot of filmmaking workshops around the world the last couple years. And I keep telling people that this was the smartest career decision I've ever made. I didn't know it at the time. I mean, I knew I had competence that it would lead to good things and would show people what I was capable of. But almost everything that's happened to me since is has a direct line back to Serato. I mean, the film made a profit. You know, in the end, it's it's made around $85,000. In profit.

Alex Ferrari 41:44
It's a short film. Let's remind everybody, it's a short film.

Griffin Hammond 41:49
Which in one way sounds like a really awesome number. I mean, because you don't expect, especially a short film, especially independent documentary to make any money to be profitable at all. But then you have to ask yourself, is that money really worth the eight months of production, the freelance projects I turned down because I was busy working on the film, that year of marketing and all that?

Alex Ferrari 42:12
Yeah, this is not any 5000. In one year, this is over the course of the last three or four years, right?

Griffin Hammond 42:16
Yeah, yeah. And for years, it made 85,000. I did make most much of that in the first year. But But yeah, it's not necessarily a sustainable model. Like, I couldn't make $85,000 every two years, and live in New York City. But you know, what, if I were to somehow stack a bunch of films, this could potentially be a model that that's lucrative. But if you could turn them around faster? Yeah, exactly. I mean, I wouldn't do this for the money. And I wasn't doing this for the money at the start at. I think the better return on investment has been that. Six months after I made the film, it led to me getting a job in New York, which I made a lot more doing that job covering the election that I did making the film.

Alex Ferrari 43:02
You got that job specifically because of Sriracha.

Griffin Hammond 43:05
Yeah, they called me up because they saw it, and they were like, We like this film. Would you like to do this kind of thing for us? Would you like to cover the presidential election the same way? have you covered hot sauce for two years? Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 43:17
That's insane.

Griffin Hammond 43:19
And then, you know, it helped Panasonic notice me, I'm now a brand ambassador, Panasonic because I've been using their cameras, and they liked that I use their camera on my film, the State Department found me and now sends me around the world to teach filmmaking in different countries. Because they like, they like the, the moral of the, of the film they liked. It's a self distributed film. They like my story. And they also like, it's a film about an entrepreneur succeeding in America.

Alex Ferrari 43:47
Genius. I mean, it's, it's, it's remarkable. I mean, one. And I think that's a message that we all have to kind of put out there is that, you know, you could talk about doing stuff, but when you actually get off your ass and do something, you never know who's gonna see it, what it's going to lead to what opportunities are going to come what doors are gonna open. Because it happened to me with indie film hustle to happen with me with my first film. It's even happening with my second film, and that hasn't even been released yet. Just the Yeah, just people knowing about it has opened up doors in you never know, but you just have to get up and go do it.

Griffin Hammond 44:26
Yeah, I keep telling people that are just getting into this, you just have to make a lot of work. Because one, you'll get a lot better with each project. But two I found that I don't. It's not even always the things that I'm proud of stuff that have an impact on people like you kind of need to have a diverse set of work out there because one of your projects is going to inspire someone or get someone to hire you. And it may not be the thing that you're proud of stuff.

Alex Ferrari 44:54
Now can you tell me a little bit about your creative life course shooting documentaries short films, which sounds like an awesome Course.

Griffin Hammond 45:01
Oh, yeah, that was probably another opportunity that came along because I made you. Thanks, Roger. Yeah, yeah, cuz I don't think I contacted them. I think they saw the film and said, Hey, it'd be cool to have that guy. teach a class. And so yeah, creative live his company in San Francisco, one of many online learning websites. And they helped me develop a seven hour course on producing short documentary films, we tried to get everything that I wanted to share things that I had learned in the class. And it was great, because I think if I had just done on my own, it wouldn't have been as good but they hadn't like, you know, they had a jib stuff like really great, productive. I'd like that, like, audience, they had a jib. They helped me design some. We shot some stuff the day before the class to show during the class, it was kind of this multimedia experience. So yeah, I have this whole like masterclass on shooting short documentary films available.

Alex Ferrari 46:01
Well, I will put that in the show notes for everybody to go check out if they're interested in learning about more about shooting documentary short films. Now I'm going to ask you, of course, of course, man. Now I'm going to ask you a few questions. I asked all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Griffin Hammond 46:20
Definitely make a lot of work. Like I said, and, you know, I think we even talked about this on my podcast that this industry is really forgiving for friendly people. I mean, you could be the best cinematographer. But if you're terrible to work with, you're gonna eventually stop getting calls to, to work on projects. So I think just do your best work and do a lot of work, make sure people see it and just be really nice to everyone, and people will be excited to work with.

Alex Ferrari 46:51
You And by the way, I've had over 250 episodes now on this on the show, and you are one of by far the nicest human beings I've ever met. I don't know if it's all bs or not. But from what you put out from our interactions, me being on your show, and you being on mine, and the talking that we've done, off air, you're very, very nice guy. I could only imagine working with you, you'd be just Hey, man. Let's go. Let's go shoot some men. So be cool. It'd be fun. Is that good impression of you?

Griffin Hammond 47:24
Yeah. I mean, it's a weakness too, because I'm not a very adamant, strong willed, passionate person. I don't always know exactly what I want in my films. But hopefully I make up for it. Because people feel pretty good about it.

Alex Ferrari 47:41
I know the movie sucks, but I'm really nice. So Exactly. Don't underestimate how important that is that no, no, and that is a very serious message I want to put out there like being nice, far outweighs talent. In this business, you know, if you're a hustler, you work and you're willing, you're humble, and you're willing to learn, and you're nice to work with people will give you a shot as opposed to the talented prick. Yeah, that we've all worked with at one point or another.

Griffin Hammond 48:12
And the connection to that is that I keep finding that, you know, especially when you're younger, you assume that like HR departments, and the hiring methods of comp, big companies, are these really well oiled machines, they're gonna go out and find all the best candidates. And they really don't I mean, people just hire the people they know, that are conveniently available. So if you happen to be you know, it's it's about who you know, and if you're a nice person to work with, but not necessarily going to find you just because you're the best out there. You need to do the work of networking and meeting people and being on the radar

Alex Ferrari 48:43
Or make a project that puts put you on their radar. Yeah. Now, can you tell me a book, what book had the biggest impact on your life or career?

Griffin Hammond 48:53
Probably, Robert mckees. Story.

Alex Ferrari 48:57
Interesting, interesting, which is interesting coming from a documentarian,

Griffin Hammond 49:02
Right. Well, probably the reason that book Well, one isn't Robert McKee, portrayed by Brian Cox. Yes, brilliantly adaptation.

Alex Ferrari 49:12
Oh, that's so real. I had not heard of him. I must. I must have heard of them. But that was he he came to life in that movie is one of my favorite movies and love adaptation. But yes, Brian Cox played him really ugly.

Griffin Hammond 49:27
Right. And it's funny because it was only after I left NYU, and I was getting my finishing my bachelor's degree at Illinois State University. But it took a media writing class. It's kind of the intro course for all the journalism and TV and public relations majors. And the textbook for that class was actually story by Robert McKee. And I mean, it's important that, you know,

Alex Ferrari 49:50
It's a great book, it's your story needs to have a solid narrative. It is it is the book that I think every screenwriter reads and his course is one of the His workshops or lectures, there's one of those lectures that everybody goes through at one point or another in Hollywood. Yeah, it's just it's one of those pieces. But yes, it's an amazing book. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life? See, probably still learning? That is the most common answer, by the way, is the most common answer. When I asked that question, I think I'm still learning it. I feel like I still know less like, I know less now than I did yesterday.

Griffin Hammond 50:36
There's still so many things I need to learn about this industry. Something that took me a long time to learn. I mean, maybe, I think it was, especially after failing out of NYU, I think it was kind of understanding that there are definitely things that I'm bad at. And I just have to accept those things and kind of recognize them and move past them. Like, I shouldn't try to be a screenwriter. Because I think over the years, I've thought, I'm a good writer. I'm a good journalistic writer. But I can only write for really one voice, I can write from my own from my own perspective, and I'm not great at creating characters and stepping into someone else's mind. I feel like I'm an empathetic person, but I just can't really talk in a way that's not my own voice. And so yeah, I I gravitate towards documentaries, because I don't want to write a script.

Alex Ferrari 51:28
But you want to, you want to tell a story.

Griffin Hammond 51:31
I like telling other people's stories, but I kind of need to just have a real person in front of me doing that. On camera, I can't really create a person. Fair nothing. Just recognizing what you're bad at and exploiting the things you're good at.

Alex Ferrari 51:44
That's a great lesson to learn. Now, what are three of your favorite films of all time?

Griffin Hammond 51:50
Let's see. I should throw back to the future 2 in there.

Alex Ferrari 51:54
it is. So straight so you say you made a specific choice of Back to the future 2

Griffin Hammond 52:00
Yes,

Alex Ferrari 52:00
Which is arguably and now we're going to geek out a bit arguably Many people believe it to be the lesser of the three. I don't but because it's the connective tissue. So why did you pick that movie? I have to find out why.

Griffin Hammond 52:15
I think I've loved it ever since I was kid. Because it I mean, I think it has, you know, they go back to 1955 it has the future as well. I especially love the ending where you're playing on top of the climax of the previous movie. So I love all the different worlds it travels to maybe even teases the third movie. Yes. And from a technical standpoint, I love that that was the movie where they invented that technique of the computerized Dolly with repeatable movements.

Alex Ferrari 52:46
Oh yeah, motion capture.

Griffin Hammond 52:48
Yeah, so they could have 45 Fox Yeah. 45 Michael Jackson, different performances in the same moving shot.

Alex Ferrari 52:55
It's pretty insane. It was pretty insane. They definitely did use it very well. I want one or two of the other favorite films.

Griffin Hammond 53:03
Well, the other two documentaries I really like Grizzly man by Verner Hertzog oh god have such an amazing film. Oh, yeah. I mean, I love it because it's not even a film. Same in the kind of film I like making. It's like a found footage film. But I just love

Alex Ferrari 53:19
It kind of is it's a kindness with a voiceover mostly someone else's put it Yeah. And what's the end? What's the last one?

Griffin Hammond 53:26
And then I'm also a big fan of Errol Morris and the thin blue line.

Alex Ferrari 53:31
That's a good movie. Very, very, very

Griffin Hammond 53:33
Also a style of documentary that I don't really do. It's very stylized kind of Errol Morris seems to do a lot of like mixing narrative style with documentary storytelling. And I don't do that. But I appreciate how he does that.

Alex Ferrari 53:47
And where can people find you online?

Griffin Hammond 53:50
At GriffinHammond.com to see videos and tutorials and my podcasts.

Alex Ferrari 53:56
And what's what's the name of your podcast?

Griffin Hammond 53:59
It's called Hey indie filmmakers

Alex Ferrari 54:01
Fit like writing your face. right in your face.

Griffin Hammond 54:04
It's very similar to your title. I realized even like the almost the same acronym. Mine is HIF yours is IFH.

Alex Ferrari 54:18
It's a great podcast, a lot of great information on it as well. So I'll put I'll put links to all of your stuff in the show notes, Griffin. Thank you, again, so much for being on the show, man. It was an absolute pleasure having you.

Griffin Hammond 54:30
Yeah, it's great to talk to you again. Thanks for having me.

Alex Ferrari 54:34
I really want to thank Griffin for being on the show and dropping some knowledge bombs on the tribe. We've never had a documentarian filmmaker on the show. So I really am very grateful for him, giving us all that great information. And if you guys have not seen Serato and want to take a look at it, it's a great little film and it really, really is well done. And it's not that expensive. It's only a few bucks. So if you want to check it out, just head over to indiefilmhustle.com/258 to get access to the short as well as links to anything we talked about in this episode, and also links on how to contact Griffin see all the things he has to offer, and a link to his creative live online course about how to shoot documentary short films. So guys, I know this summer has been a little weird. We've been doing a lot of throwbacks instead of two episodes is one, I've been really working hard on this special project that I'm working on for you guys. And again, it is not a feature film, but I will be announcing it sometime in late August, early September, which I'll be announcing this major project which will hopefully change the world No, but hopefully we'll we'll find you guys will find some value in and and you'll understand why I've been so so busy. So thanks again for listening, guys. I hope you got something out of it. And as always keep that also going. Keep that dream alive and I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 212: OUTATIME & the Back to the Future DeLorean Documentary with Steve Concotelli

Right-click here to download the MP3

Today on the show we have documentary filmmaker Steve Concotelli, the director of OUTATIME: Saving the DeLorean Time Machine. Out of Time is the documentary about the restoration of the screen used Back to the Future DeLorean Time Machine.

We discuss how the film came to be, his Kickstarter campaign, getting the rights from Universal, working with Back to the Future co-creator, producer and overall Godfather Bob Gale and how he distributed his little indie doc.

Here’s some more info on Steve. Steve has been a creative force in the entertainment industry for over 10 years.  He began his career as an Editor on G4’s “Attack of the Show”.  Since then, Steve has worked nearly every job in production including Writer, Producer, Videographer, and ultimately, Executive Producer.  His clients span the creative landscape and include Disney, Crackle, Paramount, Science Channel, Discovery, TruTV, Spike and more.

In 2015, Steve partnered with Universal Pictures to create [easyazon_link identifier=”B01FCBO5EI” locale=”US” tag=”whatisbroke-20″]OUTATIME: Saving the Back to the Future DeLorean Time Machine[/easyazon_link], a feature-length documentary about Back to the Future.  Steve wrote, produced, directed, and edited the film.  Since its release, OUTATIME has received critical praise, winning the “Best Documentary” Award at the 2016 Gen Con Film Festival. Currently, Steve is the Senior Creative Producer at Cricket Pictures in Los Angeles.

Enjoy my “time-bending” interview with Steve Concotelli

Alex Ferrari 1:18
So guys, today we have on the show a very cool filmmaker by the name of Steve conch, italie he directed a documentary on one of my favorite movies of all time, of course called Back to the Future. And he made a movie about the restoration of the DeLorean, anyone who's ever watched Back to the Future knows how important that DeLorean is, it is a one of the seminal parts of pop culture. And it was dying in the backlog of universal I saw there when I did my tours back in the day. And I was like, Wow, it seems so sad. And it's just been tore up by the elements. And he was able to get together with the producer Bob Gale, of Back to the Future, as well as some amazing talented artists that work and mechanics who are going to be able to put together and put back together the DeLorean. And the movie is called out of time saving the DeLorean Time Machine now wanted to have Steve on the show, because he wanted to kind of talk about we haven't had a lot of documentary filmmakers on first of all, so I wanted to get a few more of those on this year, as well as to discuss the process of dealing with a big studio with a huge IP, huge intellectual property for universal and how he was able to get this whole thing going, you know, he was starting doing the documentary without permission, and then finally got permission and how he got it onto a blu ray, special edition anniversary and all this kind of stuff and how he was able to make money with the film, how he's able to tour with the movie, and different kind of distribution. ideas that he was able to implement, because of the rabid fan base of the film of the original trilogy. There's a lot of knowledge bombs in this episode. So if you are a fan of Back to the Future, it's going to even be more so and I think most people listening have seen has seen Back to the Future. If you have not seen Back to the Future, for God's sakes, what's wrong with you stop listening to this podcast right now and go watch it on Netflix or Amazon or rent it or do whatever, but you need to watch the Back to the Future trilogy. But without any further ado, here is my conversation with Steve Concotelli. How are you doing, sir?

Steve Concotelli 3:30
I'm doing just fine. How are you Alex?

Alex Ferrari 3:32
Thank you, brother. Thank you, man, thanks so much for being on the show. I'm a huge fan of your movie out of time. And you know, I'm obviously a huge fan of Back to the Future. And I thought this would be a beautiful melding of, of not only geeking out because we are going to geek out in this episode a bit, but also discovering how you made the movie and went down the road and your Kickstarter your distribution plan and get to the nuts and bolts of actually making the movie but while we geek out a bit. So what gave you the idea of making out of time? Like how did you even wake up one morning go? I'm going to make a movie about restoring the DeLorean?

Steve Concotelli 4:11
Well, it's interesting. It started back in 2011 when Universal Studios first announced that they were going to restore the screen use Time Machine. And at the time to give a brief history at the time the screen just car had really started falling apart. You know it had been out at the Universal Studios backlog for 30 years. It was not in great shape. And so universal and Bob Gale made the announcement they were going to restore it. And I was fortunate enough to be very close friends with Joe Walzer who was the superfan in charge of the restoration. And so here you had this phenomenal year long restoration project that was going to kick off. And you know, I said well, is anybody filming this is you know, is anybody going to turn this into a movie because fans would love to see the nuts and bolts of this restoration and it turned out nobody had any plans. Do it. And so, you know, I kept asking who's doing this? Who's doing this? And finally just kind of dawned on me like, Oh, crap, I guess it's gonna be me then. Right? And and so I took it upon myself to just start documenting the entire restoration in the hopes of possibly turning it into a film, which we then did.

Alex Ferrari 5:19
And now How did you get Bob Gill and universal involved and actually get them to say, Hey, you, you're official, we give you the stamp of approval.

Steve Concotelli 5:30
That was a very, very long and nerve wracking process and beyond. Well, yeah, because I didn't work for Universal Studios. And so, you know, when I started shooting it, it wasn't exactly, you know, done with official authorization, I'll say that much. It was done. I was part of the restoration team, I was documenting it. And that was fine. But you know, turning it into a film is something that was entirely next level, like when you work with a studio, there's approvals and IP and licensing, and there's a lot of things that back then I had no concept of

Alex Ferrari 6:01
And they are not. And Back to the Future in the DeLorean. It's fairly popular IP.

Steve Concotelli 6:07
Yeah, that's the among their most popular intellectual property. And so we did it very slowly, and very methodically. And essentially, what it boiled down to is Bob Gale. Now, now Bob, is the CO creator of the Back to the Future trilogy, you know, he wrote them produce them, and he is the Godfather, even to this day of all things back to the future. So if any product, anything back to the future, gets approved, it goes through him, he's the authority. And luckily, Bob was spearheading the restoration, he was directly in charge of it. So as the restoration progressed, I got a chance to meet Bob and know Bob, and we put together halfway through the restoration, we did like a little five minute, here's what's going on with the restoration update that Bob hosted. So I shot footage of him. And we got to know each other and kind of test the waters to see what kind of reaction you know, the restoration footage would get. And, and, but yeah, and then, as we progressed and got further and further into filming, you know, it became clear like, Look, I really need to get some official endorsement from Universal. Because, you know, by the time a year long restoration was done, and then say a year of an interview, as I was two years into a project, I wasn't even sure I could produce legal. And like, oh, boy, what are we going to do? So Bob, sat me down with universals licensing team, their marketing teams, to to essentially essentially make a pitch for me to say, Look, he knows what he's doing. He's been doing this a long time. And, you know, basically, Bob gave me his official endorsement. But even then, I don't think universal was quite on board until 2015. I mean, that's three, three years that I wasn't sure. And then that's when they asked me to possibly put together something for the 30th anniversary blu ray that came out, you know, and they said, Can you do you have enough footage that you can cut together? Maybe a 15 minute feature out? I said, Sure. No problem. And I'm sure Universal Studios was afraid that, you know, I was just going to make them look terrible, because the shape of the car. And then I sent them a quick cut. And they saw it and as soon as they saw my movie, as soon as they saw they, they're like, okay, we totally get it. We're totally on board. Because it's it's not about blame. It's not about you know, oh, criticizing this party. It's not about fans being you know, sniping at each other. It's about celebrating this great car and everybody coming together to get it restored. And yeah, once they saw all their fears were gone. This Yep, will license this. You can have access to everything you need. I got all the proper permissions and all that stuff. And we were off like a shot but but it was I want understated, it was three years of very nervous, is this going to happen? Because all it would have taken was one phone call from universals legal department and boom, the whole film would have been shut down. And this is you know, after two and a half years of my time. So it was it was a it was a tough long road that I'm sure a couple other any filmmakers out there understand

Alex Ferrari 9:01
Oh, yeah, i know a few.

Steve Concotelli 9:03
Yeah, you know, and it, it could have easily broken the other way. And yeah, I had more than a few sleepless nights, sleepless months about that, to be honest.

Alex Ferrari 9:12
So Bob Gale was basically you were Donnie Brasco, and Bob Gale was alpa Chino. Yeah. And he's just he's the He's fine. He's with me. Work. Yeah. So he got you in the door, but it was your work that kept you in the door.

Steve Concotelli 9:25
Correct. I mean, Bob. Yeah, that's exactly what it was he he opened the door and he wouldn't have gone to bat for me if by then I hadn't already proven myself as a professional. You know, and the story I was trying to tell and yeah, you know, once universal saw it, they they embraced it. So definitely, but it took a lot of convincing and a lot of baby steps. And, and boy, you could do a whole episode just on the difficulty of trying to license intellectual property from a studio because, like, like, I'm a fan. Like when I started this movie, I truly had no idea of what it took to make a movie like this because I'm sure a lot of your listeners are thinking, Oh, you make a movie with the time machine, you go and shoot your footage, and you own it. So you just go and go and make a movie. But it turns out not to be the case. Because the car is owned by DreamWorks, or, you know, a subset of universal for it, the intellectual property, and then Universal Studios owns the film rights, and then you have to get approvals from you know, the producers and any actors that appear in the footage. And, and I had no concept of how to do any of that stuff.

Alex Ferrari 10:26
Let me ask you a question, though. And this is just a this now we're getting into a little bit of the weeds as far as legal and documentary is concerned. But documentaries do have a lot more leeway than narrative do in the sense that like, you know, I can remember Fahrenheit 911 where, you know, Michael Moore was basically ripping apart the the president of the time, George Bush, and he was using him in his documentary, and he was he didn't get any obviously didn't get any permission for that. How does it work? Why can't you just document something and release it to a certain extent or not?

Steve Concotelli 11:00
Well, I bet if I wanted to put it on YouTube, I probably could have gotten away with it, but I wanted to release it and try to make money off of it. And that's, that's an entirely different ballpark. Because if you're trying to monetize somebody else's intellectual property, that's, that's the line you you have to have legal permission for. And, and to be honest, you know, like, I was getting to know, Bob and I have tremendous respect for universal. I wanted to do it the right way. You know, I, I wanted Universal Studios to endorse the film and, and, and be a part of it and not fight against it. And, you know, I did, I didn't want to just try to release it as like a fan documentary, I wanted their stamp of approval so that the world would know, like, Look, universal, has declared this the official time machine documentary, and, you know, it's, it's quality content. And, and thankfully, that's what happened. And yeah, and the blu ray in 2015 really kind of jump started that because once once I had a little 15 minute feature at on the official blu ray, I was an official part of the franchise and that right, and that helped that but I, you know, it's still involved, you know, licensing and paperwork and attorneys and title clearances. You know, I mean, even even the title of my film, which is out of time, like the Time Machine license plate, even that was like, when I started Can I use that? Is that owned by somebody does universal own that does the DMV on that? Who do I have to ask? And you know, all these questions had to go down this infinite rabbit hole of minutia and felt like okay, you somebody universal said it was okay, I use this, you know, and it's just, it's, it's so far out in the weeds when you're producing these indie Doc's that it just it boggles the mind. You spend like 75 or 80% of your time dealing with things that have nothing to do with making your movie, as I'm sure you can attest.

Alex Ferrari 12:44
Yes, absolutely. No, I was, I was working on a show for Hulu, and the characters that the ads director and the producers wanted to get some universal characters on some t shirts, like yeah, like that they live. And the Brian Frank glasses. Yeah, exact because the whole show was about the whole episode of that series was about guys putting eyeglasses so it was kind of like a wink, wink, nudge nudge. And they got it. You know, they it was, it was fairly simple, honestly, to get a right to get the they live logo or whatever. Put on a T shirt. And you have to make it yourself. It has to be custom. You can't sell the T shirt. But it was but it did. There was some paperwork. And then there was a back and forth and they wanted some other people that like, yeah, we kind of own that one. But it's also a quarter owned by somebody else. Exactly. So you might have to go somewhere else. So exactly like you're talking about, like the DeLorean his own partly by DreamWorks or Spielberg at that point, right?

Steve Concotelli 13:45
Yeah, it's, it's a subset of one of the conglomerates and somebody, you know, the appropriate person at the appropriate subset company had to have an email that says, you know, yes, we authorize this, you know, and again, they don't know who I am. I'm just a fan trying to make a film and, and studios, and rightfully so are very leery about, you know, fans saying, hey, I want to make a movie about your movie. Let me use your IP or your footage. Sure. And And so yeah, it's uh, I'll say this. If you're making a unique documentary about something like unrelated, go for it. But to make a feature Doc, about a very famous feature film is among the most difficult and dumbest things you can try to do. Well, there was a movie. The the shark, the shark.

Alex Ferrari 14:28
Shark is still working. Yeah, you're still working, which was legendary, because it took forever for it to come out. Like they had interviews with Roy Scheider before he died and, and they had Spielberg they had Dreyfus they had everybody and universal was like, I don't know and this is where everybody was like, when is this coming out? I remember that. And finally, it got released like on the 30th anniversary or whatever. 40th anniversary Yeah, release on a DVD somewhere and we finally get to see it, which was a great doc but What a one thing saving, but you were better?

Steve Concotelli 15:04
Well, I appreciate it. But I think they had the same thing to where, when the anniversary of jaws came around the studio was looking for content that tied into that. And here, you know, these fans had essentially made this entire film for them, like, oh, why don't we just give them the okay to release that, you know, and, and my situation on out of time was kind of similar. Were back in 2011, when the restoration started, and I started shooting footage, I was already thinking, look, in three years, they're probably going to do a 30th anniversary release. And then they're gonna want some of this content, right. And sure enough, you know, in 2015, universal called, hey, we're thinking about a blu ray, do you have something? I'm like, I got you covered. Believe me.

Alex Ferrari 15:48
I've got so I'm looking at your blu ray as we speak, sir. Yeah, I've got that. 30 that aversary.

Steve Concotelli 15:55
Yeah. And I have a nice little out of time feature right on there, which, you know, is a fan is no, I think that's something that I did completely by myself, like my own time. With my own crappy camera editing it on my own crappy home edit system is on the official back the future blu ray, like behind Doc Brown is mind boggling. I still can't believe it. But it happened.

Alex Ferrari 16:17
Now you you also started a Kickstarter campaign. And you knew you'd launch the Kickstarter game, which was fairly successful. It was very successful, actually. Yeah. Now, how did you prep and launch the Kickstarter campaign? Because I've had, I mean, I did my own crowdfunding campaign for my feature film. And but you know, this is it could be a beast, but you also have you also had a, a wonderful audience to tap into. So how did you prep it and launch it?

Steve Concotelli 16:47
Well, Kickstarter is its own separate nightmare. I'll just start by that. All right, Kickstarter, for all the people who think Look at all that free money. Now, if I had simply gone to work every day, and work a regular job, I would have made far more money. That's a simple true, amen. And Kickstarter is a nightmare. And even like, your worst fear with Kickstarter is that you won't succeed. Your second worst fear is that you do succeed. Now, why is that? Why is that? Well, because if you're wildly successful, suddenly, you know, like, I found myself with 600, bosses, all demanding, like, when is this going to be done? We know when, when or what are you doing what's going on. And it was like having 6600 managers emailing me all the time, asking questions, and vast majority were great, but you do get some squeaky wheels. And I was very, very sensitive, because first, I wanted to have a good Kickstarter. But second is that I didn't want anybody bad mouthing me to Universal Studios. Because whether whether I accepted it or not, by having this film, and Bob Gale was in my Kickstarter video, so by having by having his endorsement, I, whether I like it or not represent Back to the Future. I represent the franchise and I represent the studio. And I took all that very seriously. So every time I would answer a question or deal with the public, I did it professionally straightforward in the most kind of corporate appeasing way that I could, because the last thing I wanted to do was to have you know, Bob, get some angry email from a family who is this? Who's the Steve guy? And what's he doing? And he's running Back to the Future like that would have been the death of my film. Right. But but to backtrack, and in terms of what we did, we, we set the bar, our goal for the film was $25,000, which I thought was pretty reasonable. And I didn't think we'd hit it. And Joe Walzer, who is the head of the restoration, and he's the main guy in the film, he was very involved in one thing Joe does aside from making time machines is he's a master at marketing. And he said, Steve, we're gonna blow the doors off it. And I didn't believe him. And he goes, trust me, within 24 hours, we hit our $25,000 like one. And then I think we ended around 75,000, which was three times our goal, which is great. But nervous and, and the way we prepped for it was I would say, not enough. That's not exactly true. I I benefited because during the entire restoration, Joe had set up a Facebook page for the time machine restoration team. And it was for fans to kind of track the progress and Joe was very tied into all the Back to the Future online Facebook pages, the big ones, all of them. So he already had access to a very large very rabid Back to the Future audience. And that was the reason my Kickstarter was successful. I if I had tried building it from scratch, it would have taken a year you know, just to try to get up to speed and building word of mouth. But Joe had been cultivating this because of the restoration for two years and we had been putting videos online you know, so his own Facebook page had but 75,000 people and then the other back of the user pages had millions, right so once we decided to launch our Kickstarter he posted everywhere on all the Facebook pages for back feature. Check this out. It's official. And then when people clicked on our Kickstarter, there was Bob Gale sitting right next to me in my Kickstarter video. And Bob is essentially saying you can trust this guy, he's going to finish this project, you can trust your money with him. And that and that. Put a lot of people over the top because you know, fan docs are a dime a dozen. It's easy for anybody to do it. But to have the creator sitting there next to me endorsing me gave my huge Yeah, it gave me a lot of credibility. And then the other thing we did that was excellent is we had fantastic Kickstarter giveaways, like, like, tears, tears that nobody else had. And the most popular one was, we made small five by 7000 desktop display shadow boxes, with pieces that were taken out of the time machine that were too damaged to put back in. So we turn them into collectible display cases that were with a CFA signed by Bob Gale and Joe Walzer. So essentially, you could own legally a piece of the time machine for real.

Alex Ferrari 21:00
And what was the cost of that? Just curious, way too low.

Steve Concotelli 21:03
We priced them, we priced them at like 200 bucks, I would have thought that they sold out in like 15 minutes. And then we did a second round of them. Like I think I could have charged $400 for those suckers. I had no idea.

Alex Ferrari 21:15
No, you would have probably you could have easy, depending on what it is you could apart 500 or 1000 a pop and

Steve Concotelli 21:21
Yeah, all day. Yeah, that we could have been you know, in retrospect, hindsight is 2020. But we, you know, again, it wasn't about trying to, you know, rake them over the coals that was just to get those out and stuff and, and they were wildly popular. We had a really cool poster, I had some artwork that I'd taken over the finished car. But we had stuff that wasn't just like just the movie, it was real. Back to the Future, like official type stuff. And it just just blew the doors off. So it was, you know, and then at the end of the Kickstarter, I'm sitting there thinking, Oh, God, now I have to fulfill all this nightmare stuff, which that's, and I filled everything myself, right. Like I didn't have a fulfillment company, I boxed and shipped, you know, 600 individual items to our back guard backers across the world. That's an education in itself. Hmm. And believe me while you're sitting there boxing up, like, out of time license plates at two in the morning, you're thinking to yourself, man, I should, I should have just gone to work. I should have just gone to work.

Leading it's just and I know we all go through that every indie filmmaker has that same story about just like how much of a nightmare it is. And it's like a bootcamp Brotherhood in that regard.

Alex Ferrari 22:34
No, there's no question it is it is fairly brutal. And at your level, I could only imagine and again, you had such a responsibility, because you were representing Back to the Future. So that it's not like another little indie movie that no one ever heard of, like, You're, you're doing an official doc.

Steve Concotelli 22:50
And not just that, but I couldn't pull the plug like, you know, I wanted to quit the film about a dozen times over, you know, the years just because it was exhausting and too much work and just a drain. But you can't you know, because I am representing this giant franchise, and I have to represent the best of what it is. How long did it take you from start to finish? Oh, for a little over four years, which, at the time, I thought that was forever. And then I and then as I met other indie filmmakers, I realized that's on the short end of indie filmmaking.

Alex Ferrari 23:23
Taya, Doc Doc's can go for a while.

Steve Concotelli 23:25
Yeah, I've got friends who've been making Doc's for 789 years, and they're still not done. So I, for years felt like a long time. But um, you know, it was actually bought right on par with most. And considering how much I did by myself. That was, you know, I think that was a pretty decent schedule.

Alex Ferrari 23:43
And you do come from an editing and post production background. Now, you couldn't you wouldn't have been able to make this movie unless you were the editor.

Steve Concotelli 23:50
Yeah, I don't think so. I, I've been a professional, like, television editor in Los Angeles for about 12 years now. So, you know, I knew that I needed to edit it, not just for myself, but because I had over what, 120 hours of footage. And it would have been too hard for anybody else to get up to speed on where this stuff was, you were shooting it as well. Yeah, because I shot it. And so I knew kind of where stuff was I knew how the how the restoration progressed. And then I shot all the interviews. And then I went through and logged all the interviews, so I knew where all the sound bites were. And I know several other friends who are top notch professional editors, but it would have taken them weeks just to try to get up to speed to find anything. And then you know, after working 12 hours of their day job, the last thing they want to do is come home and try to cut my film, you know, and and I couldn't have afforded any of them even if they wanted to. So it just it fell on me.

Alex Ferrari 24:42
Now can you explain to the audience and this is something I preach about a lot about tapping into an existing fan base when you're making a project because it's so invaluable? I mean, you I know. Yes. And a lot of people like Oh, he's making something for Back to the Future. That's monsters fan base. I'm like yes. But the concept is still the same is if you went out to create a product that was going to be sold to a audience, and you knew what that audience wants, and you gave that audience what they want it. And it's that that concept can go from narrative to documentary. But can you explain the power of that?

Steve Concotelli 25:20
Well, I think it would be hard to make a documentary, if you didn't already have, identify your fan base and who you're trying to appeal to. I mean, you're right back to the future. It has a gigantic fan base. And not just that, but sci fi fans tend to be very tactically adapt. You know, they're they're online, they consume digital media, they like blu rays, over DVDs, they are digital download and streaming so that they're very active online. And that's definitely the Back to the Future fan base. And, you know, trying to tap into that is is essential. I don't know if I could have made the movie without it. But even then, even with the gigantic fan base that they have, it's still difficult because my film from the outside is it's a niche film. It's a film about a car, where the car and or even a restoration.

Alex Ferrari 26:07
Yeah, is arguably it's the car.

Steve Concotelli 26:09
Yeah. And you know, a lot of people you hear that you're like, Oh, it's a, you know, it's like an episode of monster garage where they're, they're wrenching on a car for an hour. It's just like, Well, no, you know, and to try to explain what it isn't like, Oh, is it? You know, is it a documentary about, you know, behind the scenes of the filmmaking? No, that's, that's, that's not what this is. This is about the history and restoration of this screen use Time Machine. And so you know, like it, you know, every even that cuts back on the potential audience within back the feature that you can apply to? And yeah, you want to make your audience as big as possible. And, you know, thankfully, they had a very big fan base, but trying to build it from scratch. I I don't know if I could have done it.

Alex Ferrari 26:50
Well, then also, I mean, you're right, because, you know, like, perfect example. I always use this example. The Vegan vegan chef movie. Yeah. You know, you. Yeah, exactly. It's like you're like these people are interested in cooking like, Well, no, it's it's cooking. And people are interested in cooking, but it's vegan cooking. And now with vegan cooking, there's raw vegan cooking, correct. There's vegetarian, there's paleo. There's all sorts of other sub genres of the larger cooking. So same thing goes with here, there's a Back to the Future fan. And then there are fans of like, of the DeLorean. and would like to see that so that it is big, but it's still a smaller sub subset of that.

Steve Concotelli 27:29
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And that's, you know, when you're making this film, you have no idea how big or how small that subset is going to be. And that's, that's one of the biggest risks of any filmmaking is when you take on a passion project, you know, you're you're in it to the end and, and it could fly and it could flop and you just kind of have to write it out. And whatever happens happens.

Alex Ferrari 27:49
Now when you when you finish the movie, so the movies done now, how did you mark thank goodness, thank God, it's over. It's over. I've gave I've given birth, I'm done. Yeah. Did you distribute the film yourself? Did you market the film yourself? Or did you have universal help you How did that whole process go?

Steve Concotelli 28:07
Universal, didn't help market the film itself, because, and this is, again, is the legality of a major studio. My I had licensed footage, but my film wasn't an official Universal Studios film, The featurette on the 30th anniversary, Blu Ray was but when it came time, and I made my feature length standalone version of the film, you know, they were hesitant to promote it, because oh, it's not one of our films, and blah, blah, blah. They did give me some shout outs on their Facebook page, which was great. But in terms of marketing, actually, a lot of that was once again, Joe Walzer was him, motivating and kind of, you know, gathering the troops on the Facebook pages and other social media platforms to get the word out to all the big Back to the Future. Facebook pages and user groups, and I did some discussion on the prop replica forum. You know, those guys, they love props.

Alex Ferrari 29:02
So that's, that's a whole other sub genre to like, yeah, price is the ultimate This is the ultimate prop.

Steve Concotelli 29:07
Yeah, but but in terms of distribution, I actually have a domestic distribution company for North America. And so I handed over the actual, you know, creation and distribution and getting on all the streaming services, they handled that, okay. And again, that's a whole other subject is, you know, distribution distributor versus going with an actual domestic distributor, let's, if you don't, I'm still walking through that for international.

Alex Ferrari 29:37
So let me let me ask you a question that and you can say, I don't want to talk about it, or you can answer it. Do you think that because if you would have come to me and I would have been consulting you on this project, and you would have come to me like Alex, I have this movie, it's it's about Back to the Future about the machine Time Machine. What do you think I should do? Should I try to self distribute this or should I go through a distributor for domestic We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. And I would have sold you 110% that goes self distribution purely because you had such a fan base that would have turned up for Yes. Because for internationals different International, absolutely, but for self distribute for domestic, which is what I did, you know, and I had no nowhere near the fan base of Baghdad. And we have been fairly successful with it. I think you could have done gangbusters so I'm curious on why you chose that route? Because it was what year was it? When you finally released this?

Steve Concotelli 30:44
The feature came out last year 2016.

Alex Ferrari 30:46
So distribute was around self distribution is the thing. Yeah, all that thing. I looked into it. So what was the reasoning behind you choosing a traditional distributor versus a self distribution outlet? And also do you know, Mr. If you want to answer this, are you happy with your choice?

Steve Concotelli 31:02
Fair enough! Well, I won't mention my distributor by name. But you know, at the time of my thinking was this is that because of the the subject matter. It was, you know, car car based and it was kind of the way I produced it was kind of modular, I have a TV background. I was really hoping to also get it on television. And to and to do that the distributor I went with had a very solid reputation for indie Doc's high profile indie Doc's, I vetted them, because I've heard horror stories about, but yeah, terrible. So Believe me, I did my work. I vetted them against several people and in industry, people, I trusted to make sure that they had an actual reputation. And then, but I was wanted to try to get them on television rights, because I felt it was a great property for like, you know, the Back to the Future trilogy, screenings on TBS. Okay, here's an extra hour of awesome content that ties in Sure. And, and I didn't really have the method to do that myself. That was the next level up of distribution beyond me. Sure. And I needed help for that. And, and to be honest, I had done so much of this film by myself that I was ready to ask for some help. Yeah, like, you know, like, I didn't so much, I dropped the ball on so much because I was doing it by myself and details missed that I didn't want to screw up my distribution. So I was like, I want to hand it off to a group of professionals who know how to get the marketing out there the messaging who know the easiest way to get these produced for the cheapest way and and it was just, you know, it, it had everything I was looking for at the time. And so that's what I went with I mean, you know, now what I choose different Yeah, it's it's been about a wash I distributor, I have friends who have done distributor, I hear decent things. And I would certainly consider them next time around. But for this one, it just seemed like the best way to go for the situation I was in and then you're now doing an A you went through somebody else for international Actually, I just went around and around I had a company in LA that wanted to distribute internationally and then a my domestic distributors like great, you know, go sign up, it'll be awesome. And then they gave me their what they were looking for and what they wanted was out rageous expenses just outrageous as for

Alex Ferrari 33:11
Oh, you mean as far as like, you know how much it goes? There can and

Steve Concotelli 33:14
Yeah, yeah, like their their caps were just were like, more than I would ever make ever. And she's like, no, right. So now, you know, now I'm actually looking at you know, I was on the phone with the stripper just like a couple of weeks ago in terms of, do I want to do that or, or for international? Can I just put it on Vimeo, which I could do by myself. And I'm going around around with all that stuff right now.

Alex Ferrari 33:37
Still, right! Well, when we get off when we get off this interview, I'll talk to you a bit about that. So yeah. So can you did you tour at all with this film? Did you like go to conventions? Did you do anything like that?

Steve Concotelli 33:49
Yeah, I did. Actually, I went to a couple of the comic conventions where we screened the film and then I gave a couple of Q and A's. I went to San Jose Comic Con Philly Comic Con, I went to Salt Lake Comic Con a couple weeks ago. And then I actually I went to DeLorean DCs, which is the DeLorean convention that they have every two years, I went and spoke there and showed the film. So not like a full fledged tour. But but enough that I'm tired of flying all over talking about it. But yeah. And that was great. Like the convention stuff is, is fun, and especially when Back to the Future, had a large representation at all those conventions I went to, like, I went to the ones that Chris Lloyd was at that Michael J. Fox was at so there was already just a huge back of the future fan base there. And that's why I selected those.

Alex Ferrari 34:40
Now, did you sell anything there while you were there? Or I guess, okay,

Steve Concotelli 34:44
No, I whenever I went, I always had a table and I would sell some copies. And, you know, some days were more successful than others. You know, most of the time you sit there like, you know, the guy at the table with 20 copies of his movie he's trying to peddle you know, like I've been there

Alex Ferrari 34:59
A bit that night. It's Yeah, it's brutal.

Steve Concotelli 35:01
You know, you're that guy. But I always tried to at least hedge my bets, you know, so Terry and Oliver holler, they, they drive around the country, and they're, they're back to the time machine raising money for the Michael J. Fox foundation. And they're very well known, and they're at all the conventions. So if I was at a convention with them, I would try to get a table close to them, because there would be all the fans around the car, you know, and I tried to parlay as much as I could. But even then, you know, it's, it's still hard and, and breaking through and letting people know what my film was, was always the biggest hurdle. Just like, what what is this film? What is it about? You know, and that's, you know, I could I could list 1000 things that I did wrong on this film. And you know, and cutting through the clutter and having, you know, a clear title and, and letting fans clearly know what your film is about. It got a little muddy in there, and I'm even now I'm still trying to what is what's your movie about? I've never heard of it. What is it? Right, right.

Alex Ferrari 36:02
Now, did you? Did you get to meet? Meet Bob Zemeckis at all? I don't remember he was in the dock or not.

Steve Concotelli 36:08
No, no. Bob Zemeckis was not in the dock. I met Bob, very briefly once a few months ago and on it back to the future, an unrelated thing. But the only people I've met, I know Bob Gale, very well. I met Claudia wells, who was Jennifer Parker. I know her pretty well. Okay. I met Chris Lloyd. I met him a few times Tom Wilson. Never met Michael J. Fox, though because he was he was never at the same conventions that I was at. But, you know, like, it's if there's ever a Back to the Future thing in Los Angeles, and they're all there. I'm sure I will be there and get a chance to meet them. No, I mean, it's, it's it's cool. But again, like, you're in it for so long. After a while you're like, yeah, it's cool. But I'm okay. Sitting this one out. No, no,

Alex Ferrari 36:51
I did. Yeah. After you're on the same project for years and years and years. Because for you, it's not just a year that the movies been out. You've been on this? half a decade. Yeah.

Steve Concotelli 37:01
Yeah. Easy. Yeah. And it's just, and even now, you know, we're still promoting it and and back, the future still continues to be popular. And they're always talking about, you know, putting up fan events in the upcoming years. You know, they did a huge 30th back to the feature fan event in 2015. I don't know if you were a part of that at all, or if you went to it. Not at all. It was put on by Joe Walzer like the same guy who did the restoration. Of course, he's the one who put on this massive like five day back to the teacher, superfan event. And so like, you know, we were out at the pointy Hills Mall where they had a big like, they had a big twin pines mall sign built and put in the same place. And they had Doc's truck and you get pictures in front of it. I mean, it was it was like fan insanity. That's like a man like

Alex Ferrari 37:48
That's like mecca for back oh was like going like that it's going to that mall? Yeah, it's still there.

Steve Concotelli 37:54
Oh, yeah, the mall still there. And not only that, but they they screened the movie in the mall, like in the parking lot there. And then, of course, when they have the scene, you know what the terrorists they did, they reenacted it live in sync. So Marty drives the dorians driving around the crowd, and the VW is chasing around and there's 1000 fans just screaming their heads off. It's just like, like, this is just insanity. You know, like, it's so surreal. You can't even believe it's actually happening.

Alex Ferrari 38:20
That's that that must be insane.

Steve Concotelli 38:22
Yeah, Yeah,it was. It was mind blowing. And yeah, like 10 year old me like growing up in the Midwest and seeing Back to the Future on the screen. Like, if he saw that he'd be like, Well done, old Steve. Well done. Like that. That was a dream come true. Now, did you?

Alex Ferrari 38:37
Did you talk to Bob a lot. And you've been involved with Bob a lot? Did you discover any inside stories about the making of Back to the Future you could share?

Steve Concotelli 38:45
You know, oddly enough? No, I, I really, I really didn't. And actually, at the same time casting Gaines put out a book, which was like, we don't need roads. I think it was called the Back to the Future history, which had all those stories. So I just read his book. Oh, oh, these are the stories I didn't know. But but with Bob, you know, I honestly I tread pretty lightly. I when I when I'm around him. I try to be very cautious of his time. And I try to be very respectful because he's, he's still working. He's still a very busy guy, you know, he's got 1000 things to do. And, you know, I try to be cautious and I try not to, I try not to do the fan stuff. You know him. You know what I mean by that, like,

Alex Ferrari 39:28
I've been around like celebrity fans. And imagine when you're working with a person you idolize, or you're working with someone, you have a tremendous amount of respect, and you just want to kind of geek out to Yeah, it's tough. And trust me, I've been in I've been in a room with huge celebrities and movies that I want to that I grew up with, and I just want to go take a picture of you. Can you sign this for me? Like but you can't because you're professional?

Steve Concotelli 39:55
Yeah, you know, and I crossed over from that fandom into professional You know, back to feature filmmaker Domine. And you know, you don't want to, he gets the fan stuff all the time at the conventions. And that's great. And he loves it, but when I'm around him, I want to be the professional and, and you know, every time I would contact him because I needed help with something, you know, Shabaab, what do I do? You know, universal is not calling back. What should I do about this? And but, you know, it's mostly like, I'm in trouble, Bob, what am I gonna do?

Alex Ferrari 40:25
Right, as opposed to? So Bob, how was it in the first day of shooting?

Steve Concotelli 40:28
Yeah, no, I like every now and then he'd be telling those stories while people were in the room and I would listen, but I, I never really, really went down that road. You know, one thing I did say to him though, is when I was in production on and I was pretty far along I said, you know, Bob, making this film is the hardest thing I've ever done. I had no idea just how insanely hard it would be and he shakes his hand he goes yeah, you know, like nobody nobody understands how hard it is to produce a film and and you know, Back to the Future was a terribly difficult film to produce especially with Eric Stoltz Nadir reshoot a bunch of it. Like, I put myself in his shoes being what, you know, like a 32 year old producer, with this giant film and millions of dollars bleeding out and like, you're never gonna make another movie again. If this bombs, like the pressure, he must have been under you know, I think Bob's the bowels as they call it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, I kind of think about that and empathize about that, because, you know, my film is is not even on the same level, but it's still stressful and hard. And, and I think that's why Bob and I kind of got along because he he understands that what being a producer isn't the sacrifice and the troubleshooting and just the misery that that's involved with it because he's done it

Alex Ferrari 41:36
Is the misery It really is. And for people who don't know they're listening. If you watch Back to the Future, that Michael J Fox was not the original Marty McFly. It was Eric stolte. And they'd shot what like, a third of it, I think third of the movie with Eric Stoltz. And you see some of that in the behind the scenes on the blu ray. And you just you that the call had to be made that someone that Robert Zemeckis had to go to Spielberg and go, look, yeah, we got to recast and like, yeah. Oh, can you imagine? No,

Steve Concotelli 42:11
I can't imagine that competition at all. It's just like, you know, the heartache or even like when you're when they're shooting with Eric Stoltz, you know, great actor, but just imagine looking at your dailies just going to yourself, JJ. This movie's gonna be bad. This is like he's just he's great. But he's not good for this. And just just imagine that that that sinking feeling, you know, of like, are we ever going to work in this town again, I I have nothing but tremendous empathy for them as producers now and you know, all of us who have been indie producers, because it's so it's such a hard damn job that you can't even begin to describe how hard it is.

Alex Ferrari 42:46
Yeah, we were in we're indie guys. So it's a bit difference. We do have pressures, but I cannot imagine the pressures of millions of dollars. Yeah, totally. It just on top of you in a studio and, and a concept like Back to the Future, which was, it was a pretty out there concept. Yeah, it was with a question.

Steve Concotelli 43:06
Yeah. But again, what's what's great about Bob is he again, he's very producer, he were, you know, I'm like, Bob, I'm making this film. And his opinion is kind of like, you know what, go for it. Give it a shot, give it a try. And that's such a producer thing to say, No, just throw it up against the wall and see what sticks. You know, don't edit yourself. Don't stop yourself from trying it. Just go and try it and see what happens. Now,

Alex Ferrari 43:27
Why do you think back to the future is such a classic and is touched so many people?

Steve Concotelli 43:34
So you're you're getting into fandom now? I told you I was gonna get I know, I know. But it's, I think everybody listening who's a fan knows at all knows the answer to that already. And it's just because it's, it's a timeless story. It's, it's a sci fi movie. It's a romance. It's an action movie. You know, it's an it's all these different movies combined into one and every, every line of the script is perfect, and it's tight. And it just propels the story forward every single second, you know, not not a second wasted on screen. And, and you know, even when I saw it, I was too young to understand the going back and visiting your parents stuff like that time machine, man, just like still to this day when I see those scenes, like my heart still skips a beat. And I've sat in that car hundreds of times. And like I still like, get you know, I feel my pulse race just because of how cool it is. And my wife teases me. And just like how can you even sit and watch this movie? After all the times? You've seen it making your film I like because it still excites me. It is it is it for me. It's I remember I remember going to see it in 1985 Yeah, me too. I

Alex Ferrari 44:43
Remember going to the theater, seeing it and my mind being absolutely blown. You know, that was that there was that wonderful, wonderful time in the 80s that so many great movies were made like 80 from at Walmart. It's just so many great movies. 85 summer of 85 was amazing. memory

Steve Concotelli 45:00
Or Yeah, you're talking my language now like I was I was 10 when back the video came out so I was just a little on the young side, but I was still in that sweet spot for all those awesome, awesome 80s movies I mean, between Ghostbusters theaters gram backs future Gremlins and that Goonies but here's another one that it's one of my Joe Walzer. It's one of our favorites. And nobody ever talks about an explorer. So it's amazing. I love him waters, like so many people don't know, explorers at all. And yet, that's one of my favorite quintessential 80s teenager. You know, films. I

Alex Ferrari 45:34
Love everything about them. I would also throw flight of the Navigator in there. Yeah. And then I would also throw in Monster Squad. Yeah, Monster Squad. Absolutely. Toss those guys into that because those are also lesser known. Yeah, no, because The Goonies took you know, took over. But now we're geeking out in the 80s movies. And we could I could talk about 80s a whole episode on

Steve Concotelli 45:56
What's funny is actually in a way Goonies kind of kicked off my whole out of time movie in a way I owe it to Goonies. Why? And, and I'll tell that story real quick. In 2010, before I knew anybody, like actually was before that, but I, I had put together a parody trailer, you know, that when the mashups were really popular? Well, I did a mashup I did a mash up of Goonies of The Goonies meets Pirates of the Caribbean, okay. And I'm a professional editor. So what I did was I took both films, professionally, digitize them, and cut together like a professional trailer, not you know, not what and it looked, it looked real. And it was called Goonies of the Caribbean. And when you watch the trailer, it has a plot, like The Goonies discover, you know, the ship, and then the pirates come out. And it was this whole thing, and it was really well done. And it was popular online. And in fact, I got an email from dick Donner one day telling me how much he liked my trailer. And he's just like, and remember, Goonies never say die. And I'm just like, Dick Donner. Just make me a Guney. I'm like, I call on it. I'm on it. Like, yeah, he did. But that story aside, one day, I get an email from a guy who's just like, hey, you'd like Goonies and like, Yeah, because check this out. And he sent me a photo of Corey Feldman is an adult sitting in a time machine. And I said, Who are you? And where is that? He goes, I'm My name is Joe Walter. It's my time machine. And I'm like, I've got to meet you. And then like, two days later, I was at his condo checking out his time machine, and we've been friends ever since. And then

Alex Ferrari 47:25
I've heard that before I was checking out Scott. Okay.

Steve Concotelli 47:28
Yeah. And Joe ended up he is the head of the restoration. But that's how I met is because Joe saw my Goonies pirates trailer online and emailed me about it. Tell me how much he liked it. And that started this whole weird adventure. So The Goonies Goonies are at the core of everything. You got

Alex Ferrari 47:43
an email from dick Donner?

Steve Concotelli 47:45
It did it was, it was amazing. I couldn't believe it. Like, you know, like, oh, you're always afraid that they're gonna say, Thank you take that down. Right now. We will sue you, you know, like, something like that. But he, he said, it just tickled his fancy, and he really liked it. So I'm just like, boy, I'm framing that one. That's awesome. Yeah. I see smile thinking about that one.

Alex Ferrari 48:05
So I'm going to ask you a few questions. I asked all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker wanting to break into the business today?

Steve Concotelli 48:14
Boy, I don't know. Because I feel like I'm still trying to break into the business to be honest. Like I don't like you should go ask a successful multimillionaire film producer that question because if I knew the answer, I'd be doing it. You know,

Alex Ferrari 48:25
But you've been doing it. You've been in the business for 10,15 years now. Yeah. You're a little, you're a little ahead of the film students. So

Steve Concotelli 48:33
Yeah, advice for that? I do have an answer. If, if there's one field that you want to do, whether it's writing for scripted TV writing features you're in or whatever you want to do, in college intern at the company you want to intern at in college, if you that will set you on the right foot for everything else that follows. So if you get an internship with, you know, like, say, NBC Universal or on one of your favorite TV shows, as an intern, you get to sit in the writers room, you get to meet the people, you get to know how things work, and then they'll be more inclined to hire you as a PA. And once you're a PA, they'll be more inclined to hire you because you know, all the ropes are ready. If you get you can get into the place. You want to work early as an intern. Do it and that will set you on the right path.

Alex Ferrari 49:20
That's a great advice. That's exactly what I did in college. I worked at Universal in Florida. Oh, there you go. Yes, I was working in the backlog all through all throughout my I actually skipped school to work for free. It was

Steve Concotelli 49:31
Oh, that was awesome. Yeah, I interned out here for a few companies. So I did it, but they were they were feature companies and I just didn't end up doing feature. So but yeah, great experience and that that will help more than anything else.

Alex Ferrari 49:44
Now, can you tell me what book had the biggest impact on your life or career?

Steve Concotelli 49:50
I wasn't prepared for these questions.

Alex Ferrari 49:51
I know you weren't. You have anything? On top of your head?

Steve Concotelli 49:58
No I don't you know, I will give a shout out I one book that that pops to mind that I really, really enjoyed is Rebel Without a crew. Yeah, of course, Robert. But um, yeah, I mean, that's just that's such a filmmaker go to, because any any book that details, the horrible struggles of any other filmmaker I want to read. Like, I want to know that every other filmmaker is having just as much of a miserable time as I did you know when that's comforting. I don't say that to be mean, I say that in terms of comfort, because because making films is hard. And it's an even successful people struggle with it. And I like knowing that

Alex Ferrari 50:37
You don't want to hear from somebody, you know, I had a great time. It was easy.

Steve Concotelli 50:41
No, no. Because odds are they're lying, or they just had some kind of CO EP credit where they just show up once a week and walked around the set and home like, No, you weren't involved. You didn't do it? No, now it's just like, yeah, like, I want to know, the real stories. And again, in making this film, one of the great things is that at the conventions, I get to meet a lot of the other indie filmmakers. And we all have the same stories about how hard it is, and the studios and this and that, and it's just, and you realize that when things go wrong, it's not that it's not that you're doing things wrong. It's simply part of the process. Like that's making if you're, if things aren't going wrong, you're not making a film, right.

Alex Ferrari 51:20
Got some great tag. That's a great quote, sir.

Steve Concotelli 51:23
Feel free to use it

Alex Ferrari 51:24
That's a great quote. Now, What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Steve Concotelli 51:32
In this film, it's Don't try to do everything yourself? Okay? battle, that alone was the biggest mistake. And the biggest hurdle that I kind of essentially threw up in front of myself, was I took I took on way too much of this project by myself. And I, like I wrote the film, I produced it, I shot it, I directed it, and I cut it. And I did all the graphics, I ran the Kickstarter, I designed the web page, I designed the DVD sleeve, like I cut the trailers, I cut all the bonus features, like I literally and I say that not as a source of pride, but more of a source of embarrassment, that, that I didn't bring in more people, but you know, at the time, this stuff takes a lot of time, and people people want to be paid. And I didn't have the money to pay people and, and when you and then if they do it on their own time, it would have taken another three years to get done. Because they you know, cut for 20 minutes here an hour here. And I was on a I was on a deadline. So I I ended up doing way too much by myself and details were constantly kind of falling through the cracks, or falling through the cracks and dropping and, and it was just, you know, the nature of trying to do too much as an individual and I yeah, having a team of like two or three people who are all equally dedicated, who will have an equal share in it, that will all support each other and not have anybody bail i think is critical. And makes things a lot easier because you can hand stuff off if you need to.

Alex Ferrari 52:59
Now, what are three of your favorite films of all time?

Steve Concotelli 53:02
Ah, let's see Max, if I would. Well, actually, I would say on the top of the list I put It's a Wonderful Life, okay, which which is not unlike Back to the Future you know, it's it's seeing what happens life without you, you know, when a different path and there's a little bit of time travel and mystery in there. So I would say that and then back to the future. Definitely number two. I would put Ghostbusters at number three, I would put you know, the Star Wars you know, the original trilogy somewhere, you know, for Raiders five, and then you just start getting into all the other you know, awesome 80s movies. It's simply a list of babies and I totally admit it you know, it's Yeah, again, I put explorers up there you know, even though the alien third act is really weird and Goofy and a little a little clownish but I still I still love it. Yeah, I you can definitely tell that I grew up completely within the 80s and that's you know, they're they're my favorite films and

Alex Ferrari 53:59
So that's why you must love Stranger Things.

Steve Concotelli 54:01
You know what I do? I haven't finished second season don't spoil it but yeah, I'm I'm savoring this one. I'm savoring it going slow. Yeah, I love it's funny because when I watch Stranger Things, I think to myself, none of us made proton packs that look that good in the 80s since like, that's my eyes like we get cardboard boxes. None of ours look that good.

Alex Ferrari 54:23
I actually I was I dressed up i think i think it was the six I think it was at five actually. I think it was 85 I dressed up and we did a whole show on my school and I was one of the Ghostbusters and yeah, I did not look that good.

Steve Concotelli 54:37
No, but it's so funny because all of my friends like obviously since I made a movie about the restoration of the time machine. I have come to know a lot of very very good fan prop makers including all the Ghostbuster guys all the Back to the Future guys all the aliens guys. And so like you know their their proton packs and stuff now, our screen accurate and like they have the full sighs Actos like in their yard like that's how big my fans my friends are. But, but like, yeah seeing like all of us have pictures of us in the 80s dressed just like those kids like oh my god I almost have that photo being my friends dress

Alex Ferrari 55:14
Like Ghostbusters the 80s That's insane. And that is the genius of the duffer brothers.

Steve Concotelli 55:18
Yeah, that's Oh my god. Yeah, they they got everything right on that one, you know, but again, I would love to know the story of how hard it was them to try to get the series made anywhere else. Those are the great stories of you know how back to the teacher was rejected by everybody how jaws almost didn't get made because they went you know, over budget over time. The stories behind the your favorite films of how they were disasters are the stories I love the most.

Alex Ferrari 55:43
Absolutely. Now, where can where can people find you and find information about you your work, and also the movie.

Steve Concotelli 55:49
The movie, they can go to my website, it's outatimemovie.com and out of time is spelled like the license plate. It's outatimemovie.com The movie is currently available on iTunes, Hulu, Vimeo, and it's also available on blu ray and DVD. And we ship worldwide. And it's all All the links are available through the website. And if they want to email me if they want to criticize my film, you know, tell me that my filmmaking isn't that hard and that I'm wrong or that explores isn't awesome. They can contact me through the website because as I said before, I run the website because I literally do everything related to the film. It comes straight to me. It's not some big team of people, although I wish it were.

Alex Ferrari 56:35
Steven, thank you so much for taking the time out to do this man. It's been an absolute pleasure. geeking out with you and also talking, talking shop with you, man.

Steve Concotelli 56:42
Absolutely. And hey, I just want to say keep up the good work. I love the podcasts. I love hearing other indie filmmakers stories. And thank you for doing this. We appreciate it.

Alex Ferrari 56:51
Oh, brother. Thank you, man. I appreciate that. Man, it was great talking about Back to the Future a lot and having Steve on the show and, and really just discovering his whole journey of how he was able to put this this kind of crazy film together. So Steve, thank you again so much for being on the show. And if you guys want links to anything we discussed in this episode, just head over to indiefilmhustle.com/212. And also want to let you guys know that Udemy is having its New Year's Day resolution sale, every single course on Udemy now is 10.99 including all of our Udemy courses. So just head over to indiefilmhustlecom/udemy and download as many of these courses as you can get your new year off started, right? We've got about 13-14 courses up there, as well got a couple of new ones about Facebook, if you want to get anything really understand about Facebook, and also goal setting, how to set up your goals for 2018 and how to achieve those goals. We have those two new courses as well. So any film hustle.com forward slash Udemy. And as always keep that hustle going keep that dream alive and I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 134: Chasing Sly and the Family Stone Documentary for 12 years with Michael Rubenstone

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SPECIAL SUNDANCE EDITION of the Indie Film Hustle Podcast

We all hear stories of filmmakers working on films for years and years. Well, I don’t know about you but I’ve never met one until now. In my journeys at Sundance and Slamdance, I met one of these crazy and passionate filmmakers, his name is Michael Rubenstone. Michael the director of the documentary On the Sly: In Search of the Family Stone, which premiered at this year’s Slamdance Film Festival. 

When I heard his crazy story I had to have him on the show. Michael has been chasing Sly from Sly and the Family Stones for over 12 years. The stories he told us in the interview were insane. Talk about passion. We can all learn something about dedication, persistence and just plain nuts.

Here’s a bit about the film: Director and super-fan Michael Rubenstone sets out in search of long-time reclusive funk legend, Sly Stone. Along the way, he meets with some success but finds countless more failures in trying to capture a man who refuses to be contained.

Have you ever sat in your parked car for several minutes, just to hear the end of a song on the radio or savor the feeling that such a song gave you? In On the Sly, a music fan’s archival fervor and optimistic investigation take us beyond a sensationalized or simplified history of Sly and the Family Stone and bring us into a world where it is unthinkable to turn off the radio before the song is through.

The elusiveness of frontman Sly prompts both filmmaker and viewer to consider how much we project onto our heroes, and how their continued inaccessibility is, despite our frustration, often vital to continuing the work of discovering ourselves and how we use music and art to bond with one another beyond simply moving our bodies to the beat. – Beth Prouty, Slamdance Programmer

Sit back and enjoy the amazing conversation I and my co-host Teri Gamble had with director Michael Rubenstone.

All of these Sundance Series episodes are co-produced by Sebastian Twardosz from Circus Road Films and Media Circus.

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  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage – Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. AudibleGet a Free Filmmaking or Screenwriting Audiobook
  3. Rev.com – $1.25 Closed Captions for Indie Filmmakers – Rev ($10 Off Your First Order)