IFH 814: Why Your Script Still Isn’t Getting Read; And What to Do About It with Whitney Davis

Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:53
So my guest today is a literary manager and script consultant, and she runs her own consulting agency, and we discussed that very question, what does it take to make it to the next level? And we all know what that next level is, and that's all really very subjective, and I want to make sure everyone knows that. Because if you know, if you haven't read a script before, your next level is writing a script. If you've written 10 scripts, and your next level is, you want to get representation. You have representation. Your next level is, you want to get it made by an A list cast and crew. Sounds simple, right? With guest, Whitney Davis. Hey Whitney, thanks a lot for coming on the show.

Whitney Davis 2:30
Hey, thank you for having me.

Dave Bullis 2:33
You know my pleasure. You know it's funny. We were trying to get a hold each other for a while now, we just keep missing each other, but I'm so glad we could finally connect. Because I, you know, I saw your bio, and you have a really, really cool bio, and I said, I got to get Whitney on the podcast.

Whitney Davis 2:52
Well, thanks. It's been quite a journey, that is for sure.

Dave Bullis 2:57
Yeah. And I actually wanted to ask about that journey. And I wanted to ask, you know, Whitney, how did you get started, you know, in the whole literary management business, and how did you get involved in the consulting business, you know? So, basically, what I'm asking is, where did this whole journey start?

Whitney Davis 3:12
Oh, my gosh, this crazy story, to make it short, because it obviously has been a 10 year journey. Essentially, I was in the right place at the right time with the right person, is how this whole journey started. About 10 years ago, I had moved to Los Angeles with zero aspirations to be in the entertainment industry. It wasn't even really on my radar. And I had always thought I was going to be a novelist, actually, that if I ever really sat down and put pen to paper, which I think is something that a lot of people struggle with actually getting started, that if I ever actually got started, that I was going to write a book, and I was actually at a party, and this woman approached me, and I didn't know who she was or what she did, and she asked me what I was doing with myself. And I was like, Well, I'm actually raising a baby. And she's like, but no, honey, really. I mean, what do you want to do? And I was like, Well, you know, maybe I'll write a book. And so she started asking me about it, and when I told her about this concept for my book, her face just dropped. And she was like, I'm gonna have my assistant contact you tomorrow. And I was like, what is that? And so her assistant actually did come over the next day, and I kid you not. This never happens. That was a stack of TV pilot screeners, like DVDs and a stack of TV pilots. And they said, Forget your book concepts. Were turning it into an original television series. And she happened to be a TV lit agent with William Morris at the time. And so that is how I got my start. And to segue into the other part of it, you know, I started into in the television business, and then the writer strike happened. And so people started. Once I was out of work, people started bringing me their scripts, just being like, Hey, can you look this over, since you already kind of broke in? And I was like, Sure. And so I did it for free for a while, because I didn't know any better. And then I was like, Maybe I should charge, and people will go away. And then it just got worse. And. So I just did script development for a long time, and then crazy enough again, this just organically occurred. Some of my clients that were starting to do well in the contest asked if I would consider managing them, and I said no for a long time, and then it was just like I was actually already kind of orchestrating meetings. And so I finally just said, What the heck? And I just jumped in with both feet. So that is how I got to where I am today. In a nutshell, very crazy.

Dave Bullis 5:27
So when you when you first moved to LA, was there a reason that you moved to LA? Because I know you said you didn't want to be in the entertainment business at that point.

Whitney Davis 5:37
Yeah. So my husband, at the time, he was there for grad school, and so he had come to UCLA to get his master's degree. And I actually had applied to be an English teacher at Santa Monica High School, but then I found out I was pregnant, so I just decided the baby was coming in December, which was going to be in the middle of the year. So I just actually decided not to teach at all. And again, like, it was just the perfect timing that, right, you know, right after the baby was born, and I was kind of had my feet back on, you know, up again, that I ran into this woman and started developing my original TV series and all that. So it was just, and it was hilarious, because I was so green, I didn't know anything. Like, I was just like, oh, this is kind of cool. But now looking back on it, I'm like, Oh my gosh. What an amazing opportunity, like, people would have killed to be in my position. And I was just kind of like doodling along, like it was no big deal. But now looking back at it, I'm like, Wow, what an amazing, you know, what an amazing blessing and opportunities to just not have been afraid, you know, I just didn't know anything, and I wasn't jaded, so I wasn't afraid to open up my mouth and say, oh, yeah, here's my idea. And I essentially pitched her without knowing I was pitching her. So that's what I always tell people, that they just need to do their pitches. You know, when they pitch, they just need to do their pitches like they're having a conversation. Because whoever they're pitching is just a human being like you and me, all they want is to hear a great story. And I think people get really nervous at the thought of pitching, but you know, the other person listening to your pitch isn't like a unicorn, like they just, you know, they're just a regular human who wants to find great material. And so I just say, hey, the best way to pitch is just having a conversation. You know, that's the best, the best advice I can give on that, because that's how it happened. For me, it didn't even know it that it was happening. So it was great.

Dave Bullis 7:27
It's like what Dan Harmon said about, you know, he gave advice to pitching. And his advice was, have you said, when you ever, when you ever going out there and you tell your friends about some movie, and they go, Oh, should I see that movie? And and you say, yeah. And then your friend says, Well, what happens? Well, okay, let me tell you what happens in the movie. He says that right there is how you should pitch to people. He goes, just telling them about this really cool thing,

Whitney Davis 7:49
Yes. And I think that there's so much pressure these days for you know how to pitch. And I really think there is no you know formula, if you would say, I mean, I think everybody's so individual that I just, I mean, I did great American pitch Fest in May, and I was really amazed, like I sat and probably listened to 150 pitches, and there was a real big difference to the ones who were pitching comfortably and like, knew their story well, as opposed to those who were trying. I felt like to follow a very formulaic pitch that like they're like, like, I'm not doing this. And, you know, I could just tell that they were tied up. And am I giving them the right information in the right in the right sequence, I guess so. Yeah. I mean, that's just something that I really love to talk to people about, is just pitching bravely, like not being afraid to just say what they want to say, and not worrying about a formula or anything like that. So I love it.

Dave Bullis 8:45
So are you still working with that, with the agent or manager?

Whitney Davis 8:49
No, actually, I mean, we are still on great terms, but after the, like I said, after the so we kind of went through the pitching process of pitching my series at the time, and they had married me. For a lot of writers that don't know this, I think that a lot of you know, getting into the TV industry is, or any you know, whether it be feature or film or feature film or TV, is just, like, really understanding the business aspect of being a writer. So, you know, I was like, Oh, I'm gonna sell this pilot, blah, blah, blah, but really it was just, you know, when we went on our general meetings, they just wanted to see what kind of a writer I was and what my personality was, and so I thought I just had all of my expectations, like turned upside down. So anyway, after we pitched it and I didn't, it didn't get bought, but I got hired. We went through that. And then once the once the writer strike happened, and I had the baby, and things were getting crazy, I just, I decided to just go with the script consulting, and we just kind of parted ways amicably. But it was just because I kind of decided not to go back into a writer's room, per se, because it was just more amenable to being a mom doing this script. Consulting thing, and plus, I get so much, satisfaction out of people, out of helping people develop their concepts. Look it really. I really love that. So I think that's why management was a natural segue for me, because there's so much of that in managing someone and helping them, you know, get to the next level and developing their ideas and being a sounding board. So to answer your question, no, I'm not with that agent anymore, but we, you know, it just was a natural kind of break, and we're still on great terms, and I see her every so often, and she's a CAA now, actually, so she even moved since then. But yeah,

Dave Bullis 10:47
So you brought about moving to the next level, you know, as some of the questions as you could see that came in Whitney, I think that's a hot button issue for a lot of people, is moving that next level, you know? And so, spoiler alert for everyone listening, that's some of the, that's some of the questions that have come in. But I but before we get, before we get to that, I just want to ask, you know, Whitney, you know, you have worked under people like Steve Kaplan and Jen grissani, Lee Jessup, by the way, they've all been on the podcast. So how did you end up working, you know, with a lot of these people in the field. Because these are all, you know, well known people. Again, you've worked with Steve Kaplan, Jen Grissani, Lee Jessup, John Truby, Chris Vogler, you know, how did you end up working and meeting with all these people?

Whitney Davis 11:33
You know what? Honestly, I saw some out like, I was just like, if I'm going to do this, and I want to learn, and, you know, learn from the best, and so I just made an effort, you know, to save like, this was kind of in that journey where I was, it was kind of this weird in between period where I was doing the script consulting and was kind of deciding, like, as I personally wanted. I mean, I guess I'm kind of an entrepreneur in that degree, just deciding if I wanted to take my career to the next levels and going into management. And so I just knew who the experts in the field were. And I was just like, You know what? I'm going to go I'm going to find them, I'm going to seek them out and find them and talk to them. And so essentially, I just kind of made, like, a business plan that I was going to save up certain amounts of money and, like, invest in myself to go to their classes and meet them and start relationships with them. And so that, I think, is part of where, why I am where I am today. Because I wasn't afraid, and I was like, I'm going to do whatever it takes to just kind of get, get in front of these people and meet them and talk to them. And so, you know, and then it started being crazy that, like we I mean, it's such a small world, and now that I'm kind of getting into that world with them, like I see them everywhere. Like I was just with Jen in New York. We were doing a conference together, and I see Lee Jessup and like, I'm helping Steve with his comedy class in January. So, I mean, that's how I did it, was I just took the initiative myself and went out was like, I want to be associated with the people who know what they're doing. And I just took the initiative to go find them and to build relationships with them, actually. So that's how it happened. I just wasn't afraid, I guess so. I hope that answers the question.

Dave Bullis 13:18
So, I mean, you know, with the advent of the internet, I think it's made, you know, everything, a little easier and a little harder at the same time. And one of the things that's made a little easier is finding these people. Because, you know, all the people that we just mentioned, they all have websites, yes, and so did you? Did you find them through their websites? Or did you bump into them? Maybe at a conference?

Whitney Davis 13:39
I bumped into them all at conferences. I mean, I knew people in the industry, and I had just been hearing about these people, and so, like, I either attended, I mean, I met them all in person. I made an effort. And again, this is hard if you're not local to LA, because a lot of these people are local to LA, but I made the effort to know go to the conferences, to make sure I went up to them afterwards and spoke to them. And you know, now I really consider them friends and colleagues that I just, I mean, I was truthful. I was like, hey. Like, I want to, I want to learn from you. Like, I want to know what to do. But for people who aren't local to LA, I mean, all these people, Jen Lee, Steve, John Truby, Chris Vogler, Robert McKee, you know, all these people have, I just say, the best thing that you can do is access their information. I mean, they have podcasts. They have, you know, online seminars. They have these things like these people know what it takes to get to the next level. I mean, they are the experts. And I say if you can't meet them in person, like, tweet at them, email them. You know, they do phone consults. I know that Lee does for sure. And like, just stoke up everything you can from them, because they definitely, they definitely know what they're doing. I do consults as well. So I mean, you know, you just, I think you just got to put yourself out there and like, make it known. Like, I always tell the writers I work with, like, make it known within the first five minutes of a conversation that you want to write. Right, and you want to do this, and this is what your goal is, like, I think it's important to speak that step out into the universe, to like, let the world know, because it's like, you don't speak it. How would anybody know it? You know what I mean. So I think there's a lot to making verbal commitments and letting people know that that's your goal, because they can hold you accountable to it and ask, you know? So I think that that's an important aspect of a writing career,

Dave Bullis 15:25
Definitely. And I definitely think also, you know, finding out who you actually want to talk to and zeroing in on those people is really important as well.

Whitney Davis 15:33
And in terms, you know, in terms of, like, I think one of the questions that the guy asked there was a guy that was like, maybe he wasn't local to LA, but he asked about queering. He's, like, is that my only option? Like, I'm not in LA. And like, you know, I always say, even if you can make one trip out to LA and go to, like, one of the big conferences, like great American pitch fest or story Expo, or, like, I know, there's others that are, like, American film market, or any of those things. Like so many people are at those and just even making face to face contact for five minutes and handing them your business card and making a contact, like, that's enough there, then and of itself to, like, send a query, and like, agents and managers show up to these things, like to film festivals and all these things. So I think that a cold query can be a little hard and difficult in terms of taking things to the next level. But I'm just like, man, if you can invest and take one trip out to LA like a year, like it, can do what, and you go to the right event and, you know, make sure you talk to the right people. Like it can radically change the trajectory of your career, absolutely, 100%

Dave Bullis 16:44
You know we were talking about, you know, you your, you went to the management side, you know, of of the business. And I wanted to ask you to Whitney, what are some of the things that you know that have you have seen, and that sort of like is as what I'm trying to say is sort of like a normal thing that you see, like the most common error screenwriters make. Because I was trying to say,

Whitney Davis 17:06
Oh gosh, you know, that's a really tough question, because I think everyone obviously is so individual, but I think that one of the common, common errors that will turn either an agent or a manager off is just the way in which they go about contacting them, actually, like you really need to research the agent or manager that you're trying to talk to. I know that one of the big things among agent and managers often, if you're sending a query letter that you're sending to a lot of different people, a lot of times, like the person sending in either the query for their film or their TV show or their literary novel will spell the agent's name wrong or spell the manager's name wrong. And that is like the number one turn off, like you're not even paying attention to what you're doing, you know. So number one, I think, is just paying attention to detail and showing that you're serious. I think another things that they look for, like, which is crazy, is typos. Like, they'll forgive some but they're just like, if an email is just chock full of typos, they're just like, and these people want to write like, what is this? You know? So I think that those detail oriented things are one of the things. The other thing is it's good to be persistent. Like, I think it's always good to follow up with an agent or manager. But you have to understand that most agents and managers are absolutely drowning in either scripts or books to read, like, drowning all the time, like you're always playing catch up. And so a major turn off is like, if you tell someone, hey, thank you so much for submitting your script or your book. Like, expect, you know, to hear from me in four to six weeks. And you know, an agent, an amateur who really writer who isn't aware of how things operate. They like, you know, they get antsy and they want to know. And I totally understand that, because I've been there. But if they start emailing like, every day, or every two days, which has totally happened. Like, Have you, have you read my Have you read my book? Have you read my script? Have you done this? Have you done that? Like, we're just, like, forget it. Like, if they can't be like, you know, that absolutely tends to drive agents and managers crazy. And they just, you know, they won't respond. Like, they just won't. There's like, if these people can't be patient, like, I'm not, you know, I'm not. So I guess there's like, I guess what I'm saying is, there's a there's a particular like, standard protocol in terms, I guess, as behavior or general manners, that those two minor things can be enough to turn an agent or a manager off. Unfortunately, I think so, those are kind of my two, two big things, I think, of which aren't even, which aren't even material related, which is like a whole other, you know, which is a whole other thing. Yeah, so those are like actionable items that people can look for, like, don't send a query with typos, don't over, you know, bother the agents managers. And then there's the material side of things, in terms of the content they send, which is like a whole different ball game that we could talk about, but I don't know how much time we have

Dave Bullis 20:21
No that sounds great, if you if you have the time, I'd love to get into that

Whitney Davis 20:26
In terms of, like, you know, I think that so, to make this super quick, I think in terms of the content people send, you know, some people, you've got, like, two types of people, and I don't mean this negatively at all, but you've got your people who are just like, My show is great. It's completely original. It's the next blah, blah, blah, which is totally awful to say. People are like, sometimes they're like, I'm the next JK Rowling, or I'm the next Quentin Tarantino. It's like, don't, you know, they'll say that. And there are things it's like, do not compare yourself to the greatest you know, people out there. That's just a no no. But in terms of, like, the material, like, I think a lot of it is people just they want to be a writer. And I just tell people, like, sometimes people come to me and they want to be managed, and I'm like, Well, okay, let me see what you have. And really it comes to an aspect of, like, Are these people ready to be is there material ready to be shopped? And the things that I look for to make sure that a material, you know, that a that a either a script or a TV show or a novel, is ready to be shot. It's like, is the story structure there? Like, because a lot of times it's like, they don't even have, like, I'll read through it and like, key components of what makes a story, a story are missing. Like, there's no catalyst. It's like, what's the inciting incident in this story? Or, you know, there is no all is lost, moment where the character really comes to this deep, dark place where they have to rise back to the top again. You know, that's missing. It's like, I, you know, there's nothing I can't manage that now, on my consulting developmental side, like, Yes, that's what I'll work with you to fix. But in terms of, you know, are you ready? A lot of another thing that will kill, you know, a story or something like that, is really stilted dialog. Unfortunately, dialog is one of the hardest things to write, and when you're reading through a script, if it's really stilted or unnatural, that's something that will turn an agent or a manager off when they're skimming through and reading. So, you know, those are the things that I think you really have to pay attention to. And that's why these people like Vogler and Grisanti and John Truby are absolutely, like, amazing, like, Robert McKee just put a buzz out on dialog, and I read it. And I mean, this is my business, and I, like, consider myself, like, pretty high up there. Not Robert McKee standard, but like, you know, I know how to write dialog, and I read the book, and I was, like, blown away. I mean, it's just so good to be reminded of this stuff. And I think people sometimes think that writing dialog should be an innate ability, like we all talk, so we all should be able to write that, but when you translate that to a script or to a book, it just, you know, it's hard. And so I think people the best thing that they can do for themselves is just practice daily read up on, you know, techniques and ideas from the experts, and just don't give up because that, and just keep working. And I think that that's like the best thing that you can do. And have it. Someone read it before you send it to an agent or manager, like, have it covered, or have Jen Grisanti or Lee or me, or someone you know, take a look at it, because that really helps to have someone in industry that knows what is people want know what's out there to, like, make sure you're on the right track. I mean, I feed, I think feedback can be invaluable if you get it from the right, from the right source.

Dave Bullis 23:43
And you know, when you, I think a lot of times too, you know, when you send a script to a agent or a manager, usually it's going to go to their assistant, right? You know, it's going to have their assistant read it. And I think sometimes those assistants, you know, can this get easily? And I've heard different things. Sometimes they say they can easily just chuck your script, meaning if by the first page they can, they can see if. So, okay, so that is right.

Whitney Davis 24:11
Oh yeah, no. Well, you know what's the crazy thing is now for someone like me, because I am a small boutique management firm, like it is me and one other persons I'm obviously not. Circle is confusion. I'm not, you know, mad house, you know. I'm not, you know. CAA, I'm not one of these big things. So I actually read the scripts myself. But what is true is this, and this is the truth people, for you, for those of you listening, the sad thing is this, it's like if you're at one of those big houses and this is the problem, if an assistant or a reader reads a script and gives it a consider, or, you know, you know, pushes it on to their boss. You know, they spend, you know, the assistant spends all weekend reading, and if they say consider or that they're going to. Send it on to their boss. That means their boss, the manager itself, is going to take time out of their day or their weekend to read it, and if it sucks or it's awful, and their assistant passed it on, guess what happens to that assistant? They're gone. They're fired. And so honestly, assistants, unless it is just absolutely cream of the crop. Amazing. What the sad reality is is assistants are assistants are scared to pass it on, unless they can just absolutely tell it's amazing, because they're afraid of their job. And I hope I don't get in trouble for saying this, like I know this. This is true and on certain levels, at bigger at bigger firms, so you just have to be. So what I guess it's to say is, like, it's just that's how it is, unfortunately, and so for me, though, like being a small manager, like, I'm willing to take risks on certain people and develop people, and that's why I think the cold query is a really scary thing, because managers and agents oftentimes it isn't always about the content that the writer has. It's about the writer themselves, like they want to see, like I have spidey senses. It's really weird, like I can sit down with a person and usually know within less than five minutes if I'm going to work with them or not just based on their personality. So that's why I tell people, if you can get in front of agents and managers, your chances skyrocket, absolutely skyrocket, because they're going to be working with you. And so even though your content may not be the best if they can tell that you are a go getter and a talented person, they're probably going to be more willing to take a chance on you. And so that's why it's just downright scary to send something in cold like CAA, Gersh, Chris circles, any of those big boys, just because that's how the ball rolls. So but again, if you can meet those agents or managers that work at those places at like industry events, then you're in a better, a much, much better scenario,

Dave Bullis 27:02
You know, because, you know, it's like, I've had people in here before, and they would say, you know, getting a manager, getting an agent, or even a manager more so than an agent, but it's about a relationship, because you're gonna have to be working that for that person for for months or years to come.

Whitney Davis 27:16
I always say it is totally like a marriage. And you know what the crazy thing is, is I've talked to people before where I've been meeting them, kind of seeing if we're going to work together. And I've even had to be like, Look, it's not even about your content. Like, because honestly, I feel like, I feel like every agent and every manager kind of has, like, their specialty or their niche where they feel most comfortable. And so like mine at the current moment, is television like, I feel like I have much more connections and much more understanding of the TV world than I do of the film world. But do I know producers and people in the film world? Yes, but I just don't feel as comfortable in that space. So when someone comes to me and they ask me what I consider managing, but all they have is features. Like, I sit there and I'm like, Look, I'm just gonna shoot straight with you, like, your stuff is great, but honestly, I just may not be the right manager for you, only because I don't think I'm going to be able that I have what it you know, that I have the contacts to shop you in the right in the right places, and I don't want to do a disservice to you knowing that I probably am not going to be the best fit, so I'm just boss system and say, like, look, it's nothing about your your ability or your talent. Like, I just can tell that we're not going to be a good fit. Or, like, I've told several people, like, you're great, but I'm just not passionate about this particular project. And to work together like you guys, you have to be in tandem like you have to be on the same page. You have to have a manager that's going to absolutely fight for you and advocate for you 100% and so I just, you know, I sometimes feel like it's just, it really is. It's like a weird form of dating in a way, like you really just have to make sure that you click and that you gel together, because you really are in this weird riding marriage, you know? So I think that that's been an interesting thing. I've learned that I've turned people down who are really talented. I just know that I'm not the best fit for them. So it's hard. It's really hard.

Dave Bullis 29:17
Well, you know, that actually ties in with some of the questions that we got Whitney, and we actually had a pretty good amount of questions come in. You know, if you don't mind, would you? Would you mind answering a few questions right now? Sure, absolutely, you know, actually just talking with what you just said. The first question is, do I need more than one script to approach a manager?

Whitney Davis 29:40
Yes, absolutely you do. Generally speaking, when you come to a manager. Lee Jessup, this is one of the main nuggets that i. Learned from her back in the day. You really need what's called a writer's portfolio. And so generally, what that entails is you really need to have, even if you're not a TV person, this is generally, across the board, just what a screenwriter needs to have. You need to have a really strong TV pilot. You need to have a really strong spec pilot for something currently or not spec pilot, but spec script for something currently on air. So I tell people, you know, look, get watch television. Kind of pick your top 10, what I call a hit list of TV shows you'd really love to write for. Then kind of knowing what your talent is, narrow that down to like five, and then pick one of them and do a really good spec. Because, you know, people at the networks and people you know at the production companies want to see that you can mimic the tone and style of someone else's work. And even at the studios for features, because you know that they do work for hire, for rewrites all the time for movies, but they want to keep it in kind of that same tone. So the they want to see that you can somewhat do that, and then also have a really, really strong feature. And if you have more than that, then that's great, but three is kind of the minimum. And then, you know, people coming to me being like, well, I have five features and three, you know, three TV pilots. What do I do? And I'm like, Well, you probably have a pretty good indication in your gut which ones are your this, you know, are the strongest. Like you need to take those, really, you know, read through them again, polish them, rewrite them, and then use those to send out kind of as your portfolio. So absolutely, definitely more than one, definitely one TV pilot, one spec pilot for something currently on air in any form, like network, premium cable or streaming, and then a really strong original feature that you've written.

Dave Bullis 31:53
And also Whitney, I think we I should probably mention two. And maybe I should have asked you this question before, but you know, would you briefly just describe, you know, the difference between a manager and an agent? Because, you know, I sometimes think writers, you know, they always have an obsession about getting an agent, when really they should probably get a manager correct?

Whitney Davis 32:13
Yes, absolutely. So for those of you listening, if you want, you can go to my website. I actually just did a four part series on representation, 101, explaining all of this, but to really do a short recap, so an agent is licensed by the state to negotiate and execute the sale of your work. So they come in when their business to be done. So they are the ones to do that, and they usually take 10% and so they really don't do they may read your scripts, but they aren't. They don't have the time, and aren't going to take the time to, like, read it, give notes, all of that. Agents generally tend to have anywhere from 30 to 50 clients on their roster, depending on where they are in the life of their kind of career. So they can take on a lot more people, because they literally are just doing the business side. The one thing also you need to know is the agents are not legally allowed to produce anything. Their only job is executing and negotiating the contract for the sale. On the flip side, the manager is not allowed to, quote, unquote, procure employment for their client. They're not allowed to like, quote, unquote, get you a job, like doing anything per se, but they can help you sell individual scripts, but they cannot like, be the ones. Again, that's the agent's role. So what the manager does is the manager really is all about developing your career. They are the ones that usually go about helping you network and get meetings, like I just had a meeting with HBO and Hallmark a few weeks ago, and Netflix is up on the thing. They're the ones who are going to really organize and schedule those meetings for you and get you in the door a lot of times now, what's different, though, is a manager can produce which in some senses, is good, because your manager is way more invested in that sense. So they also take 10% of whatever happens generally, because they're the ones doing the heavy lifting and the footwork of, like, helping you develop your concepts and reading and giving you notes and, like, really involved in the day to day. So yes, at the beginning of your career, if you can snag a manager, like, that's probably one of the best things you can do. And a lot of people don't even have agents, they can in lieu of an agent, they can just use an entertainment lawyer, which is just the same an entertainment attorney, which is just the same thing. But what's great with an agent, I'll say this caveat, which great with an agent. If you have an agent at CAA or one of the bigger firms, what's great is if they. Have someone else in their agency, like actresses and directors and all that. The great thing is they can package, you know, material, and that will help. So it's like, if you have your script, but then they have actresses, A, B and C at their firm that are wanting to attach, and then they also have this director, and then they can take it as one big package that definitely, you know, incentivizes the sale. So those are the two big things. Agents licensed by the state, negotiate, execute the contracts. Manager is not allowed to do that, but they can produce in there, the day to day development, getting you meetings, helping you network, helping you brand yourself, helping you write, just kind of grooming you for your career. So that's the short explanation. I hope that helps.

Dave Bullis 35:53
Yeah, I that helped a lot, you know. And that's great information, especially about packaging too. You know that that's something also I hear, you know, people will always, will always talk about that. And, you know, I think a lot of times people sort of misconstrued that. And I think it's almost like the whole age manager thing,

Whitney Davis 36:11
Yeah, and it can happen on the management side. I mean, I guess if it your management firm, but it's, I feel like, I hope that's right. Now I'm kind of second guessing myself. I've heard it happening more on the agency sides in the management side that say package, but probably someone's gonna like write in and say I'm wrong. So who I'll I'll put that as a caveat that I'm not exactly sure, but in my brain at the moment, that's what it's telling me, but I may be wrong, so sorry if that's wrong information I'll have to check. But I'm pretty sure it's more on the agency side than the management side is that they do that.

Dave Bullis 36:45
If anybody writes in, I'll just send it to you, Whitney, I'll be like, listen, Whitney, this guy's

Whitney Davis 36:48
Sorry people. I'll buy you a coffee. I mean, I don't know what to say. So, so, yeah, so that's the differences between agents and managers. So, yeah, I think management, that's the spot. I mean, I love it. I just think, I just love being a part of the it's a sickness, really loving, not loving, to be a part of the process so much. People are like, every day is so funny. I'm just like, why do I do this? And then, like, when, like, a breakthrough happens, I'm like, Yes, this is the best. I mean, it's just like, it, it's such a crazy, crazy, crazy existence. So,

Dave Bullis 37:22
Yeah, it's like the plateaus and the hills. You know what I mean? It's like the you get the highest of highs and lows.

Whitney Davis 37:29
But the thing is, you know, and that's why, you know, I guess, that some of people could look on it as being shady, even though I don't think it's shady. That's I haven't given up the consulting side of my business. Can you people come to me and they're like, I want to be managed. I know that they're just not there yet. So I offer consulting services. And I always say, you know, if you don't want to stay with me, because, you know, you think that's odd, like, I'm totally willing to, you know, send people to several of my different colleagues. But like, the consulting side is just that I love so much too, because I love the people that are that need the expertise of an industry, X, you know, you know, an industry like expert or whatever, and I love being that person to help teach them and all that. So it's kind of a, it's kind of a crazy, crazy thing, but I love doing both halves, so I feel like I can get away with it because my management, you know, cluster is so small at the moment that I still can help the people that are the up and coming, aspiring writers. So I really, I really still enjoy doing that so much too.

Dave Bullis 38:35
Yeah, I can tell, you know, you really enjoy doing it. And I mean, you know, it's, it's needed, you know, it's, you have to have people that really enjoy this, actually out there doing it. And, you know,

Whitney Davis 38:46
I love it. I love it so much. And I think some people get really jaded and it gets tiresome. But I just, I just find it all so fascinating, like the way that the human mind works and the things that people can come up with. I'm just like, I mean, I just like, visibly, like, I mean, people laugh at me because my face just lights up. I'm like, Oh my gosh, look. I'm just, I'm like, even now I'm thinking of some of the stuff that some of my consulting clients are pitching at Austin, and I'm just like, I cannot wait for them to pitch it, because I just get so excited for them because the ideas are so freaking, you know, amazing. So we'll just, we'll just see it's a fun, exciting world. I

Dave Bullis 39:21
actually have a few other questions I I'm gonna try to answer, or I'm sorry to try to ask these last two so Whitney, this is by at Joe screenwriter. And Joe asked, What are some of your thoughts on the query letter? As a Hollywood outsider with zero contacts, it seems like my only shot.

Whitney Davis 39:41
Yeah, and so I feel like I kind of addressed this a little bit earlier, but I'll expand on it. So the query is a really tough thing, like to him, I would specifically say, if you're in Hollywood outsider and you don't live in LA, I would really just make sure there is a process to the query. So I would make sure and there's like an actual format to a query letter for film and TV. So I would look up or buy a book on how to specifically query your book or your film or your TV show second, if there's a specific place that you know that you want to send it, like I would research those agencies or those firms and check their submission requirements, because oftentimes certain places are closed to unsolicited queries and it's referral only, so you need to check and make sure that they're open to unsolicited queries. And yeah, for someone who doesn't live in LA, that may be your only shot. But like I said, it is not super expensive to get to La these days, I feel like, and it's just like, if you can save up and come to one event or one kind of industry thing it can and again, I would probably say great American pitch fest, something like that is like one of the best things that you can invest in, because you can get in front of, like 100 management companies and producers who you can pitch to. And, you know, it's just, it can change. It can change your life, like honestly. So in terms of a query, there's nothing wrong with them. I take unsolicited queries you can submit through my website. I know that a few others take unsolicited queries like maybe circle of confusion, but you know, the other thing I would do, honestly for a person like that is reach out to people on Twitter and ask if they have managers or agents. And like, if you can get a referral, like, if you can send it to a this is another way in which is a good point. If you can find another writer who's currently represented, and you send them their your query first and have them look it over, and if they like it, they may be willing to pass it on to their agent or manager, and that's a way that it's not unsolicited anymore. So you feel like you have to find these backdoor ways in. So if he can find someone on Twitter or Facebook or LinkedIn that's currently a writer and currently reps like that, might be a great way to go, too, if he can't get to LA,

Dave Bullis 42:17
You know, that's a great point. Whitney, you know, Twitter is a phenomenal tool, and I use it all the time. I've always talked about the great uses of Twitter, because almost everyone now is on Twitter.

Whitney Davis 42:26
Oh, I mean, Twitter is absolutely amazing. Like, it's crazy to me. Like, about how many like, people I've met on Twitter. Like, I've gotten a few clients off of Twitter. I mean, it is insane. And I think to the screenwriting world, it really is the best social media platform for connecting. For sure, is Twitter, honestly, I think it's way, I think it is the top one honestly. So that's what I would say, is like cold query, make sure that they take submissions, if not come to an event, and if not find another writer who is rept and see if they'll look at your stuff and check it out, or several of the the last one is several of, if you can afford to hire one of the consultants, they all, I mean, we all know people, and so if they come across something that's really amazing, like they aren't, they will be willing to pass it on as well. So, I mean, I think, and the other thing is contests, like, if you enter a contest, and you place in a contest, all those lists go to agents and managers the people that place. So that's another way to break in, for sure. And so that may be easier than querying. Honestly, it's just, you know, applying for a, you know, entering into one of the many, many contests out there.

Dave Bullis 43:37
Yeah, you know, that's something I've heard before too, is they want to see what your your writing is, can do up against other people's writing. And, you know, I've heard that where they want to see, you know, hey, why aren't they, these people going in this competition, you know? Why aren't they, you know, doing something, going, why aren't they going that route?

Whitney Davis 43:53
That's a good idea. That's another good way, if you're not in Hollywood, because I know they takes, you know, they it doesn't matter where you live, you can always enter those contests for sure.

Dave Bullis 44:04
So, Whitney, you know, we've been talking for about, you know, 40 minutes now. So in closing, is there anything that we didn't get a chance to discuss that you may have wanted to or sort of, you know, anything you wanted to say to put a period in this whole conversation?

Whitney Davis 44:17
No, I mean, I just, I think that I want to tell people that truly, if they set their minds out to do it, it's amazing that if they just keep at it, keep meeting people, keep writing, things can happen for you. The two things I say, the 2p of writing are patience and persistence. So I think it just really is a journey. And if you're patient yet persistent and just keep at it, you know, I truly believe things will happen for people, and I think it really is half relationships, half who you know, and half you know craft and how well you write. So I just always tell people, always be nice to everybody you know you meet. Make an effort to be friends with them. Be. On just wanting to sell, you know, sell them or pitch them your idea, and just continue to really practice the craft of writing, and write because you love it, not because you want to make money off of it. I mean, I think some people, you know, can make money off of it, and that's great, but it's just like, right, because you love it, and that's what you really want to do. And I think the money will come if you go, you know, look at it as a business and go about the right way of approaching it. So those are just, kind of my last few nuggets of advice and encouragement. Just keep at it. Just patience and persistence is the key, and being nice to people, and it'll all, you know, hopefully fall into place. So,

Dave Bullis 45:44
Yeah, I like that last part to be nice to people, because they're, you know, even on Twitter, Whitney, and I'm sure you get this all the time, I get a lot of people who immediately follow me, or they'll send me an email to my website, and right away they're asking something from me, like, Hey, Dave, can you retweet this? Can you can you do this? I'm like, I don't even know who you are. I don't even know what the movie is like, why don't you?

Whitney Davis 46:05
Yeah, and I'm telling you, I in that. What I really appreciate is even the writers that I know want something, but they actually just, like, ask me out for coffee. And like, we go to coffee and just get to know each other before they make you know a certain ask or whatever. I mean, it really is about just getting to know other writers and building those relationships, and you know, just acknowledging their successes before you start asking favors of them. I just think there's so much power in acknowledging success just to be like Dave, you like, do a great job at podcasting like, thank you so much for the for what you put out there in the Twitter universe and social media at large, and start that conversation that way. And then maybe after a few days, like, you know, it's been so great talking to you. I was just curious if, you know, maybe we could do x, y and v together, and like, have something to offer back to them. Like, if you like, I said, like, if you're gonna offer to, like, reach, you know, ask somebody to do this, be like, hey, in return, I'm more than happy to do X, Y and Z for you in the future. Like, see if you can barter something like that. Makes it a lot, a lot, a lot more acceptable to me that people would be willing if they know that you're also willing to give on your end. So I think it's a, definitely a give and take. And the writing community is such a great place. I just love it so much. So, I mean, that's what I always say, be nice to people, the first rule of everything it will it will come back around in a great, great way, if you can do that.

Dave Bullis 47:34
You know that that's excellent advice. Whitney, Whitney, where can people find you out online?

Whitney Davis 47:38
They can find me at whitneydavisliterary.com and then they can find me across all social media at W davisliterary.com I mean, well, at W Davis literary, yeah, the handle on Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn and everywhere else,

Dave Bullis 47:55
I guess, yeah, and everyone I'm going to link to that in the show notes, Whitney Davis, I want to say thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Whitney Davis 48:11
Thank you for having me. It was an absolute blast.

Dave Bullis 48:14
Oh, I'm I'm glad you had fun, because this is your first podcast. I'm glad you know you had fun on

Whitney Davis 48:20
Yes, it was amazing. Thank you.

Dave Bullis 48:24
Anytime. Best of luck, Whitney. And you know, if you ever want to come back on the show, please just let me know. I'd be more than happy to have you back on

Whitney Davis 48:31
I would love it. We'll have to figure something else to something else to talk about, but for sure,

Dave Bullis 48:36
Oh, there's so much we could talk about, aren't

Whitney Davis 48:38
We just do networking. I love talking about networking for writers. It's like one of my favorites. We should do that.

Dave Bullis 48:45
Oh, that sounds good, because I usually get asked about how I how I network when I go on other people's podcasts.

Whitney Davis 48:50
So we should do it. It'll be fun.

Dave Bullis 48:52
Yeah, we could do like, a dual networking, pretty cool.

Whitney Davis 49:27
Let's do it. I'm down.

Dave Bullis 49:31
Whitney, thanks so much.

Whitney Davis 49:35
Okay, thank you.

Dave Bullis 49:37
Anytime, take care. Bye. Bye!