IFH 772: Screenwriting the 80’s Classic Cocoon with Tom Benedek

Alex Ferrari 0:04
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:55
Hey, Tom, thanks a lot for coming on the show.

Tom Benedek 1:09
I'm really happy to be here. Dave, thanks for having me.

Dave Bullis 1:45
Oh, you know, my pleasure. Tom, you're a person. I've been, I've been mean to have on the podcast for a while. You know, I really admire, you know, your work and the work that you and Scott do for screenwriting master class. And, you know, it's good that we could actually, you know, have this conversation now.

Tom Benedek 1:59
Oh, it's great. I'm glad, I'm glad you've been enjoying classes, and it's been good to have you in with us, in our in our classes. Oh

Dave Bullis 2:06
yeah, I've been enjoying the classes a lot. And, you know, there's a question I usually ask most people, you know, when we start off, is, I want to ask Tom, you know, how did you get started? You know, in the film industry,

Tom Benedek 2:21
how to get started? Well, I, I, we fell in love with movies when I was a kid, and we had a neighbor who was a filmmaker, Burt Balaban, and we were on the set of his movies a couple times. And I just love to go to the movies. I have this weird I, you know, there were these movie theaters in our town, and I would go and see the West. We'd go to see the, you know, when I was a little kid, the, you know, 20 cartoons matinee in the afternoon, and then an aberrant Costello movie. And my mom, my parents, really liked movies. My mom really liked movies. So, like, the first movie I saw in a theater was Bridge over the River Kwai in she took us to New York and saw that in a theater when I was a little kid. So I was just, I really stories, really loved movies, and I would just go. I wouldn't go by myself when I was a kid, but I have this one memory of I really wanted to go see this, this western that was playing, and my friend Larry didn't want to go. So so I actually said, Okay, I'll buy your ticket. So I, like paid for him to go, just so we would do that in that afternoon. I think the movie was, she wore a yellow ribbon, you know, and I have no idea what, you know, how that, whatever promotion for that movie made me want to see it. But yeah, so I just really liked movies. And then when I was in college, I started making films, and I just, you know, decided that's what I wanted to do. And at that time, there was sort of the 70s and the 80s was a great time for movies. There's a lot of excitement, and there were a lot of film students who were breaking into film. And I did my junior year abroad in Paris, and went to film school and made a film. It was actually in French. It was my student film. And I then came out to California when I finished school with my French student film under my arm and a spec script that I written and tried to make my way and, you know, sell the script and get work. And that was a process. But then, you know, I worked at, I did, like, different kinds of jobs, and this guy hired me to write and direct an educational film, which was, like, it was a story film was sort of a red balloon kind of film. And I made that film, and it won an award and a festival, which kind of gave me a little bit of hope. And I kept writing. Kept writing scripts along the way. And then I got an agent and had some jobs, and, you know, nothing to to nothing that really panned out into anything. They were fun and interesting jobs that I had. I optioned a script to a guy, actually. Actually Rick Rosenthal, who became a director and TV director and still very active out here as a company called Whitewater. And so I opted to script to him, and then I wrote a script that got, got some interest from Bob's and meccas through my brother was was a lawyer, and he was working with Larry Kast and zamex was a friend of his. And I wrote the script. My brother liked the script, and he gave it to those guys. He gave it to Kazdin and Kaz and gave it to Zemeckis. And Zemeckis really loved the script, and he wanted to make the movie. So, you know, that was sort of, that was my first taste of anything, which really was going to be, you know, breaking into the, you know, so scaling the walls of the studios, so to speak. And that project ended up, nothing ended up happening with it. You know, we because Bob Zemeckis, I thought it was like this, he had done used cars. And I want to hold your hand. He was still he and Bob Gale were Spielberg sort of proteges of the time, and then Spielberg directed their script 1941 which was a huge flop at the time. You know, it's just like a big, you know, it's like field Spielberg's first movie that he'd made that hadn't worked. So when Zemeckis got interested in my script, it was like the tail end of his, that first wave of what he, you know, had going in the business. So it wasn't the greatest of times for him. But, you know, he loved my script, and he wanted to do it, and he, you know, we took it to all these places, and nothing happened with it. So I, you know, I was kind of charged by that, you know, I felt like, wow, you know, it was like, more than it ever happened to me, and I was exciting. And it was, it was a fun thing. And I, you know, we were still, I was still kicking that script around trying to do things with it, and working on another script. And then about six months later, the phone rang, and it was mecus, and he said, I Hey, Tom, I have this project at Fox, and they I need a writer to develop it with me. Would you be interested? And you know, I, yeah, of course, I was interested. So that was cocoon. It was this unpublished novel. And there was the producers with these mega producers, Richards, Richard Zanuck and David Brown, you know, they'd done jaws and sting and all these things. They had this big deal at Fox. So he had that deal with developing that project with him. And there a writer had done an adaptation. It was an unpublished novel in this guy had done an adaptation of it, and it wasn't, it wasn't really, no one was very happy with it. And so they gave me the material and said, Well, you know what? What do you? Can you do something with it? So I, you know, figured out a pitch, and had to go in and, you know, I pitched it to Bob, tried to figure out something that like would sort of work with his sensibility in terms of what the material was. I kind of reinvented what they had before, and reinvented the novel, and novel, The novel in a lot of ways, and used the story and just changed a lot of elements, characters and things to it, and kept some, you know, the basic sci fi story that was there. I stuck with that. And, you know, it's about the, you know, the story is exactly what the movie is. But, you know, many adjustments later, I think. And so, yeah, pitch that at to Zane and brown and Lily Zanuck, Richard zanecks wife. And, yeah, they, they bought, you know, they, they hired me to write that script. And so that's, was my first that, and that, you know, amazingly, there was all this drama. You know, the studio, Zemeckis then went off to do Romancing the Stone, and he they ended up having a lot of problems with the studio, Romancing the Stone in our movie cocoon, I wrote the script and it got greenlit. You know, it's like they wanted to make that movie with Zemeckis, but then he was off making this other movie for Fox, and they are having all this. He was really tangling with some people, with Michael Douglas, and other people the studio, about that project in some ways. So it ended up, they ended up not wanting him to direct cocoon. So we had this movie that was greenlit, and we didn't have a director. And then it'd be some I then suggested Ron Howard, because of splash, and miraculously, Ron Howard was had read the script before, and and was interested in the project, and, you know, the producers convinced him to do it. And so, you know, that's and that was my No, my big wave, that was my way in. That was my first writer skill job, and that was my, you know, first movie that got made.

Dave Bullis 10:18
So after that, Tom did, did you get a lot of, like, people wanting to work with you. And, like, a lot of directors wanted, wanting to sit down with you to talk about their projects,

Tom Benedek 10:26
yeah. I mean, that was like, yeah. It was pretty, you know, it's like, such, yeah, I was, you know, because, well, once the movie got going, I started getting, you know, some work started coming my way, you know, with other other producers wanted to work with me because the movie was, you know, in development, I was sort of like, you know, in the game a little bit, so to speak. And then when the movie came out, and it turned out to be a hit, and, you know, and it was, it was, it was well liked by people in the in the bit, in by the people in the business. It was just, you know, people really, really, really were very kind about the movie. And so, yeah, I just started getting, you know, and the business was so different than the studio system. You know, the studio, like cocoon, would not get made now. I mean, it might get made. Somehow, someone would struggle and fight and get it made. But, you know, it was like a 20 million at that time, a $20 million movie, which is a very low budget studio movie, about as low as you could do at a studio at that time, I think, and with no stars, you know, Steve Gutenberg wasn't really, you know, he was a star, but he wasn't, you know, like a movie. He wasn't a, you know, it wasn't a guy who was known to just, you know, put together movies, any movie couldn't put together with, with him and at that time. So, yeah, so that was, you know, that then, you know, the people just started throwing me every kind of job you could imagine. You know, it's just like, yeah, things change. So I got, I got a lot of work after that, definitely, definitely, a lot of, you know, things going on that way.

Dave Bullis 12:00
You know, you touched on something to Tom and I that I wanted to talk about, which was, you mentioned, you know, that movie wouldn't get made today. And you know, I think you're right, because I you know, everything now is either, like a low budget, you know, one to $5 million movie, or it's a huge superhero movie. And you know that that's something now where I wonder, you know, where, where is that middle ground that that used to be, you know what I mean? And so, you know, what I wanted to ask you is, is, excuse me,

I wanted to ask you is, is, you know, what would you do if you were a screenwriter, starting off right now, you know, what would you do? You know, to sort of, you know, get your foot in the door again, knowing the the Marketplace is where it is right now,

Tom Benedek 12:43
I would just write. I would write a great script in whatever, whatever you are interested that writers feels they have in their heart that they can embrace 100% and really feel committed to emotionally and and spiritually and physically and just like, you know, on every level, and just write a great script. And if you write a great script, then you have a writing sample. And, you know, in terms of the practicalities of what can get made, yeah, you know, it's, it's better to write something that's can be made for a price, and even if the marketplace doesn't allow for that kind of thing as much. If you want to be in the feature game you got, you have to write a feature film. And you know, so and it may be that writing an enclosed, a low, something low doing, you know, mixing it up, writing some right, writing something that's, you know, an enclosed thriller, something that's extremely low budget that, you know, can be really made cheaply, and yet, is a genre film. I think that's something that the studios are interested in. It's, you know, I think that if you, if you embrace a genre, you if you want to work for the studios, if you want to work in that context, you kind of have to look at the movies that they're making and embrace that kind of movie and do something which demonstrates that you are can do that better than anybody else that they're going to have. So, you know that they're my agent has all these writers working for Marvel, you know? I mean, so, you know? So there, there are these, there are people who are specialists in that, and that's, that's they've dedicated themselves to, that they love that, and that's what they do, and that's the kind of work that they're getting. And they may have come at it from somewhere else. They may have written something that was a more specific sci fi, or very, you know, heightened kind of action film that got them there, but something that really corresponds to what that realm is, and to the kind of kind of scenes and the kind of character development, the kind of stories that are in that genre. And, you know, they're like, there are other kinds of genres that, you know, there's the horror genre and, you know, there's, there's a few, you know, there's action thrillers, you know, one character action thrillers, which is probably no the most. You know, a simpler version of, you know, a less expensive kind of movie that the studios can make, where they can make it with one star. And if it's, you know, if it's a compelling story, original, it can be, you know, I think it's going to be the next take in, or something like that. So that's, that's the way in, and it's much more limited, you know, I mean that the icon when I, you know, there used to be development executives, it used to be a point of pride that a development executive would have two projects that were that they loved but were very difficult to get off the ground, or sort of impossible, but they loved them. So they had, you know, that those people aren't. That's not something that is part of the, part of the mix right now. And the people who are left as the development executives are, you know, they're, it's business, you know, it's just very, you know, it's pared down to being specific to what the necessities of international distribution are. And that's, you know, that's the studios. And then there's television, you know, I think that television is kind of that picked up the slack, and all these people are moving into television, and the television is just taking a lot of different forms. And, you know, six episode series or 10 episodes here, you know, cable shows or 10 episodes and per season, and that's it. And then there are, you know, Netflix does these small films now. There's Talu talula, just came out on Netflix. There's a good little film with, with Ellen Page, and Allison Janney, which is like Juno, it's but it's straight up there on Netflix. And Baz Luhrmann is doing the Get down on Netflix, really interesting show. So television is really and what I was saying about in television there's, you know, limited series are are significant, and series that have few episodes are significant. So something that could be a feature film could also be put into one of those contexts. But, you know, and also making and making your own film, making an independent film, or just trying to do something that's really small, that goes to the independent market, and there's not a lot of money in that. But if your heart is in, is in an idea, in a project, you kind of have to, you kind of have to do it and try and find a way, and people find a way, things rise up. You know, everybody's hoping that this year, that at the festivals and wherever, that some great stuff is going to rise up. So people keep making movies and keep writing scripts, and then good things will happen. You know, you

Dave Bullis 17:38
made another good point Tom, which is about TV, you know, that's where a lot of good writers now that even you know, that I even know personally, are all aiming for TV now, rather than feature films. And I think part of the reason is, is because of the budget issue where, you know, you want to make a feature film, you know, and they look at it and they go, Well, you know, maybe this would be better as episodic, because that's, you know, everyone has been, you know, conditioned to binge watch it. Or, you know what I mean, and there's, and we're in the golden age of TV. There's so many good TV shows on, you know, out there. And, you know, I think, you know, even some of the producers that maybe would have made those movies, those feature films, even a few years ago, have maybe too much on their plate, or they just aren't making those types of movies anymore.

Tom Benedek 18:24
Yeah, I think you have a, I mean, they're not there. It's hard for the producers. The producers are reluctant to develop a lot of things because it's really hard to set them up. It's just they don't, you know, the studios aren't giving the producers budgets for development, and they're just not buying. It's not a, it's a, it's they only buy, they buy scripts when they're going to go into production a lot of the time. Now, apparently. So, yeah, it's TV is really picking up the slack. And, you know, and I think that it's, it's this breakdown which is occurring in the but I think that, you know, once things eventually, the theatrical, theatrical film is not going to go away. It's that form is important. And people don't just want to watch series. People don't always want to just get hooked into something that's going to take them 10 hours to watch. They want to sit down with a group of people or by themselves and watch something that's two hours. And that's that form is primal to film entertainment. So it's not going anywhere. It's just, right now we're in kind of a it's in kind of a downswing in terms of the certain sectors of the kinds of films that are getting made. And it's it's probably going to it's probably going to change. And it may not be that the movie theaters are going to be as important as they were, but I think that there's still, there's always going to be room for, for a good movie, for a good script and a good movie.

Just but I think that in practical terms, do having a TV script is something where people feel like they can do something with it, there's there's all these channels, there's all these outlets that are all looking for stuff. So, you know, and there, you know, if you take the difference between the way that Warner Brothers is trying to find material for movies. Warner, Warner Brothers films versus the way that AMC, the AMC channel is looking for projects, I would guess that AMC is is a lot more, you know, fun place to go to if you really want to sell something these days,

Dave Bullis 20:43
yeah, you know, because AMC, you know, with The Walking Dead, and they also have Breaking Bad and, you know, and you know, I, like you said, a lot of people are taking more chances because, you know, I heard a rumor that voodoo, which is owned by Walmart, is going to start making their own original content, because everyone wants To get into that game of creating their own original, you know, movies and TV shows. Yeah.

Tom Benedek 21:05
I mean, someone this idea of the content bubble is, you know, they said, two years ago, somebody said that there was a content bubble and it was going to go, you know, there are too many shows and all this. Well, the bubble hasn't gone away and, you know, I was the truth is that a show that a cable show that is doing really well the number of people who are actually watching it, it would be canceled. It would have been canceled 15 years ago if it were a network show. So it doesn't have to do that much business like this. It's kind of this large scale version of the long tail where people you know, where there are so many niches now, and if you if you fit into a niche, and you write something of quality, show of quality that really, that people who are passionate about that niche and beyond, you know, respond to then, you know, it's, it's gonna, it's gonna work. So you have all these channels, and they're all, they're all looking for stuff. They're all looking for ways to survive or make themselves more prominent than they are. And so, you know, you so there all these channels you never heard of are all sort of have one eye on doing some, you know, some kind of TV series or some kind of filmed entertainment show, that's not just what their standard mix might be. So, yeah, so there's, you know, there's a lot going on. There's also, you know, things that are just on the web, just web series. And, you know, there are these verticals which are grouped groupings together, group grouped together, web shows that are, you know, just a bunch of web channels that are, that are, that are part of one organization, and there's just going to be more that's just starting, and now it's in, you know, people, you know, treat it like, oh, you know, some people love YouTube, and some people feel like they don't relate to it, and they feel like it's Not for them. And they then they generalize that that realm is never going to be something that they would ever want to work in. Well, it's going to evolve. I mean, all these things are going to evolve. Maybe it won't be YouTube specific. Maybe YouTube will will stay the realm of what it is now, which is, you know, I I enjoy some of the things that are on there, but it may be that it will really, you know, there'll be more diversification, there'll be more different kinds of shows, even within YouTube. So there's plenty of there's a lot of opportunity, and there's a lot of, you know, a lot of ways to go. And you can know having a good script is is a beginning, and then being industrious about figuring out where it can fit in.

Dave Bullis 23:44
You know, we just were talking about web series too, because, you know, I took that class with you about creating a web series. And, you know, that is something to I, you know, I noticed was that there's more web web series competition spring up more and more, you know, and they're very open, because there's no, you know, set page count, you know what? I mean, like, so some can, you know, they're like, Hey, if you're, if your entry is five pages, or whether it's 25 pages, as long as you're, you know, you have this concept for, for, you know, the channel, or for the project in general, you know, you will, will accept these entries. Yeah.

Tom Benedek 24:18
I mean, yeah, you can it can be whatever you want it to be. I mean, someone can define if something's really compelling and it's 30 minutes, it's people are going to watch it. I mean, it's just a matter of a matter of doing something that's of quality, doing something that really, you know, that really is, you know, outstanding for people and satisfies and knows resonant. And I think you know you can bring the same skill sets of and same same emotional tools that you bring put in a screenplay to this, these short forms, and you can also use the short form to boost a, you know, boost a script or a movie. There's a lot more of people putting together real. Skills to try and sell projects, you know, they sort of like to really investing in whatever their ideas and and having a way to present it that really injects it into people's heads in a creative way. So it may not just be reading the script. It's, you know, there's, there's more to it. And that's, you know, it'd be, as a writer, I would prefer if it was just this level playing field. It was this orderly situation where people were reading the scripts and then, you know, making rational decisions about them after having no a good experience reading the script. But there's it's gotten there. People are doing more and more to try and and enhance the possibilities of something. Get people's attention to the to the material that they have.

Dave Bullis 25:48
Yeah, one common tactic that I've seen is to make something into like a transmedia project, you know, where it's, you know, a web series and or it starts off as a novel, and then you make the movie, or then you write the script and say, hey, it's based off the the novel by the same writer. You know, I've seen people, you know, more people trying to package things, you know, like we were talking about setting setting up projects. And you know, what they would try to do is also get Facebook page fan pages, or, sorry, Facebook fans for their page, you know, Twitter followers. And that way, when you're pitching to people. They can say, hey, look, we already have, you know, 10,000 people on this, on this fan page,

Tom Benedek 26:24
yeah, and that, you know, that speaks the idea that you can so much, that you can do yourself, and that you can't, you know that that whole the other going back to the feature realm, you know, there's this, you know, people who are doing a Kickstarter, you know, you you can get a movie done that way. You can, you know, if you have a script, and if you, you know, you have to, it's, there's a whole, there's an art and a science to doing Kickstarter or seed and spark, and that's a way to build the following for your your script, and kind of figure out, well, is there, you know, find the audience for it. And then if you do, if you do a Kickstarter, and you start a Facebook page, and you do all these things and people, and you're able to communicate what your film is and get people and people resonate with it, then that's, you know, that's the kind of a test of, you know, if you do that, then your your project, it bodes well for your project, so, you know, so it's good thing to do. But again, that's is really like, it's just not just, not just having the script, but then doing all these other things. And sometimes, rather than going around and trying to get, sort of go around to the agents and managers and producers and try and get permission to do something, or, you know, or get them to approve what you've done, so that they can then go out and market it, if you really just go into the trenches with and just, you know, try and try and figure out a way to get it done yourself, or that that may be more productive ultimately. So, yeah, very

Dave Bullis 28:03
true Tom, you know, Tom, I wanted to, you know, ask because, you know, we enter our conversation about, you know, making projects. You know, what sort of advice you know, would you give to somebody who was, who you know, who was thinking about writing a screenplay for, you know, I usually say beginners, but if you don't mind. Tom, what would you say to somebody who maybe even is beyond the beginner and maybe, like intermediate to advance, you know, what would you give? You know, any advice to them about about, you know, sort of right for writing for their next screenplay, whether it be about structure or whether it be about concept. Is there any anything you know that you could comment about?

Tom Benedek 28:40
Um, I would say no great character driving plot, great characters, and really having a, you know, making sure that your movie is really about something, and, you know, working, working to the heart of what it is. And, you know, that's probably, you know, just just just giving it, giving your project. Now I've been saying this a lot, giving your project love, you know, giving it all the love you can. And really, you know, make it great and, you know, and be able to enunciate what it is really, say, say what it is, and not to oversimplify it, but to really sort of have an I, you know, be able to be clear. You know, you might not know it when you start out what it was really about, but by the or you, or you might not know what sort of the mirror you know, what the important things that your characters go through, that they really discover about themselves, or what they you know, what they finally conquer, just like, you know, what that could mean to people who would be hearing about the project. So they hear about, you know, they might hear about a high concept of some sort of hook of what the plot is, or where it takes place, which sounds really, oh, that's interesting. I haven't heard that, you know, that's that sounds. I'd like to see that.

But then, if the closer is and this person, this guy or this woman, they what they what happened to them, the main characters experience in their own life, on in their own terms of what happens to them through through the story, which is going to translate to, you know, it's going to be the people who hear the story, watch the film, and read the script, they're going to they're going to grow from whatever that growth is that takes place in the character. And, you know, sometimes that's not it. Sometimes characters don't change, they don't grow. And it's not every movie, and not to be formulaic that has to be that way. But I think that even if that's not the case, the character will have, there's certain kind of heart story that will take place at the center of most films, which is what people remember. That's what people that's why people remember movies. Is because of that story within the story. And, you know, I'm, I'm always chasing it down on my own stuff. And, you know, sometimes I don't know, sometimes I start with a story that's very external, and you have to start somewhere. And you not, you may not know what it's really about until you've written it, and you can outline and outline and outline. But I think in the in writing is where, if you really let yourself go and you're writing, if you really, you know, take the ride with it, you'll discover what you'll learn what you're, you know, it's, it's in you, and you're sort of the instrument that's going to get it out, but it's gonna, you want it to have a life of its own on the page,

Dave Bullis 31:45
you know, and even in talking with Scott, you know, you know, Scott Myers, the other half of the screenwriting masterclass for those listening, you know, we were talking about character and how character is everything, because character suggests plot. You know. Everything comes from character, you know, and, and those movement moments where they change in the film that all comes from, you know, their character and, and either wanting or needing to change. And, you know, this whole idea where you can, you know, sort of take a, you know, an outline, formulaic outline, and just plug whatever in there. I think is the downfall to a lot of screenwriters, because I've seen them, you know, try to say, oh, man, you know, on page 17, I gotta have this, and on page 30, I gotta have this, and, and, you know, you just go, you know, you wonder why, why movies become formulaic? Well, it's because of stuff like that.

Tom Benedek 32:31
Yeah, I think that's true. I think that, you know, I mean, the the form, you know, the formulas or the dramatic structure, wasn't, wasn't invented before the story. The first stories were told. The stories were told. Naturally, people just told stories. And then after a while, people sat down. Well, why is everybody listening to him or her, you know? And then they realized, Oh, well, you know, this is where, you know, they, they set it up here, and they, you know, they worked it. And then they, Oh, there was this point where everything went, went downhill completely to the bottom the main character, they all bottomed out. And then there was this lift, you know, at the So, yeah, they figured they, maybe they saw that in what those but the stories came first. And so there was no theory. So, and the theory is a way to sort of, you know, sometimes you may write, just, okay, I know I'm going to need these things, and it's a way to start writing. It's a way to get going. But you want to just let the story. You want to just kind of find the story in its rawest form, and then it may be misshapen in some way, or it may be missing some elements, like, you know, and then you can go to the formula, or go to those models of how, how scripts are structured. And, you know, the idea, the lessons about dramatic structure, and just sort of measure what you have against those ideas about structure. And it might say, well, you know, I never really, I didn't really explore my characters enough before the point, you know, before the, you know, when everything got really bad, the all's lost moment, so to speak, you know. So you can use it to kind of diagnose, but you may not want to necessarily start. You may want to write instinctively at first and then see how it fits into those structural models as kind of a remedy. It's like an acting, you know, the method, method acting, you know, is this wave of this wave, sort of imagining. I'll oversimplify it, but it's if a character, if an actor has a part that they're doing, they may dig deep in their own experience to find moments that will make them feel, the moments in their real life that made them feel in a similar way to the characters where the character might be feeling because of what's going. On in the story. So they'll plug that in, and they'll realize, okay, at that point, I'm going to think about when my, you know, when, when I saw the elephant get euthanized, or whatever it is, you know. So that'll make me cry. So they'll and maybe in the movie, there's watching, you know, something completely, you know, they're observing a soldier dying in a bed or something, you know, whatever it is, but they use that emotional moment from their real life to sort of, sort of make themselves feel and appear, or the way that they're supposed to fear appear, and that's method acting, but some actors may need to do that every second of you know, how complicated would that be? Every moment you're trying to scotch tape together, something had happened from when your life, I think most of the time, most actors, even method actors, are just imagining it. They're just, they jump into the character and they imagine it, and then they reach a bump in the road at a certain point where, you know, they're facing that soldier dying in the bed, and they just, they're just not feeling it, or they just don't feel like they really have a clear understanding of what it would really they can't bring. They're just looking for more from what they want to be, from their performance. So in that piece of the of their performance, they may use that idea from that that experience from their real life, and bring it in, and then just use that there, so that, and then on film people, you know, it will work really well, because there they seem to be how the emotion is really, you know, appropriate for what this they would for what's going on at that point. That could be a great performance. But that's, that's a technique. And that's may not be a technique that is used every second of you know, it's just like you don't do that all the time. An actor doesn't do that all the time, just the same way. A writer may not use the form, you know, the formulas all the time as they write, they may just write. And when they hit that bump in the road, when they just want something more, they feel like there's something missing, then they'll go to the technique, then they'll go to the formulas and use it as a helper. So,

Dave Bullis 37:12
you know, and it's also something to Tom, you know, as we talk, you know, about about writing and, you know, and we talk about outlining, because, you know, when I've outlined, and then I started actually write it. I've had a lot of aha moments as I'm actually writing, you know, I'm sort of like, oh, okay, you know, maybe this could happen. You know what I mean, you start getting these ideas that you sort of maybe can't see with the outline, because you're the outline really ends up becoming, like, a lot of broad strokes, if you know what I mean, yeah. And that's what I've learned, too, is, you know, as we're making this outline to really get in there, and it's you're able to sort of, now say, Okay, now this scene has to come out of this scene. And now we can do this. And, you know, within this scene, this is how this reversal happens in this scene. Because, you know, it started off with Guy A has all the power, and then it ends with Guy B having all the power, you know, stuff like that.

Tom Benedek 38:01
Yeah, yeah. I think I completely agree. I think that, you know, I feel, sometimes I feel like I outline too much, and then I'd be better off just writing pages. And then I sort of want to be, I want to be writing pages, just let myself be writing pages. And then there's this fear that, oh no, if I write, if I write pages, you know, just I'm going to write myself into a hole with a stuff that doesn't make sense. And I, you know, but I think that there is a point where you really want to, you know, you want to write. And I think in some ways you can. I also like to, and I advise, get start writing, go forward, see what, see what's going to happen, and then go back to your outline. Play with your outline based on what you write, you know, restructure based on the inspiration that comes from the writing. Because it it will change. It should change. You know, if you're writing for, you know, if you have a deadline and you have a producer, you know, a company or something, and they're, you've, they've approved an outline, well, that's different. You know, you can, you can diverge a little bit, but you may have to stick with it. But you know, if you're just writing your own script, you just just, like, know, free yourself up. No, yeah,

Dave Bullis 39:12
I know exactly what you mean. And you know, I actually, you know, I started off writing feature films, and now I actually just wrote two TV pilots, one half hour, one drama. And now, you know, I sort of, I see, you know, talking with, like Jennifer. She was on the podcast few episodes ago, you know, we're talking about creating that Bible, you know, and just creating a pitch and making sure that all this stuff is set so that, you know, they know that you have a vision of where this is going to go. And, you know, the whole thing sort of, sort of fall folds back, and you have the vision of where it's going to go in the series arc, what's going to happen in season one.

which, you know. Which is a season one arc, and then you have the entire, you know, episodic arc about that season, you know what I mean? So it's, you know, putting all this stuff together, and you realize, you know, making a TV pilot is actually really, really difficult. And I actually might venture off Tom and saying, you know, pound for pound, it might be the most difficult of doing all this stuff, you know, whether we talk about writing web series or feature films or TV, you know, I think TV, writing it, writing a TV pilot, because you have to get everything in motion, and you have to, you know, make sure that, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's intriguing and all that stuff, and you have to introduce all these characters, and within, you know, 30 and, you know, one hour, you know what I mean, yeah, I

Tom Benedek 40:37
agree. It's really hard. And, you know, I think the idea of having to present this, they want more, you know, they want an episode, and, you know, the pilot, and then outlines for a couple episodes, and then the whole, you know, a season summer, you know, a season bible of some sort, or just, you know, descriptions of many, many things. It's really, it's like you're pre writing a novel, it's pretty it's tough, you know, and you can get away, I think you can get away with less if you have really strong pilot, but you do have to give the line, I was speaking with a writer, you know, who's done a lot of lot of stuff, and he was, he was saying that, that they that it's that most of the speculation of the season of the Bible is just like BS, that most of the time it's not going to end up that way. You know that you can't really know. You can't really predetermine the season from just writing the pilot, and maybe some people can. I don't know. I don't know if that's the case, but there are buyers who are buying the entire, you know, they're just buying the entire season, so that that's really what you're, you know, you're going in and they you want to sell, and, you know, the production of the entire season of the Show. So you better have something planned,

Dave Bullis 42:01
yeah, and you're right, it is like setting up a novel. It's, you know, because you have to make sure they, they know, they have to make sure that you know where this is going, you know, it's not just sort of like the pilot. And then you're like, Well, I got to kind of figure out where everything goes from here, you know. And speaking of very for TV, you actually have an upcoming TV writing class, correct? Tom,

Tom Benedek 42:20
I do? I have one it start. It's this week. Are you when is this airing? I have, I have, I have a one week class this week, and then in September, I have a pilot workshop that's going to be going on. So

Dave Bullis 42:34
this will be airing about two weeks, so maybe beginning of September,

Tom Benedek 42:38
yeah, oh, let me tell you here. I'll let me get the dates here for you. I can figure that out here one second.

Two weeks, okay, September 5, right after Labor Day, I have a pages one, writing the first draft. That's a feature class. And then on September 12, I have pages two, it's a rewrite class for features. And I we also do TV pilots in there as well. So it's, you know, that one, both, both can be in there. And then on the 26th of September, I have a pages TV original TV pilot script workshop. So that's a 10 week pilot workshop where we, you know, work out a whole series concept and pilot script in that class. So I have those things upcoming at screenwriting masterclass online. Very cool, Tom,

Dave Bullis 43:41
you know, to you know, and I'll make sure to link to those in the show notes, everyone and you in closing, Tom, because I know we're just about out of time. Is there anything that we didn't discuss, or anything you sort of want to say to put a period at the end of this conversation?

Tom Benedek 43:53
Well, it was, it was great speaking with you. And, yeah, I just think I encourage people to to write, to tell their stories, and just know, I think that the product, the writing itself, and, you know, create, doing, doing creative writing, and, you know, concentrating, you know, in a form like screen screenwriting or pilot writing, I think that it's its own reward. And simultaneously, there's, there's a great world out there. And as much as we're, you know, we're there with we still have one foot in the way things were in feature films, and we were, we've actually moved forward into some this new realm in film entertainment. And it's really, it's, an incredible because of the changes in technology and the changes in lifestyle have been going on. It's an incredible time for film entertainment, and it's an incredible visual time. Visual elements are so important, and film, video and filmed elements on the on the web, in all ways, are so important. So. So imagining out these stories and script form is just a great thing to do, and it's important to have fun with it, and to, you know, love, find out what the shows are and the and the movies are that you really love, and keep watching and keep reading. And you know, that's, that's about all. That's, that's, that's, it No,

Dave Bullis 45:23
very cool, Tom, and where people find you out online

Tom Benedek 45:26
screenwriting masterclass.com, if anybody has any questions, I'm Tom [email protected] and I also have a podcast, which I started very recently, which we have, the first three episodes are up. It's called the process, dot i n k, and we're on iTunes, and we're talking about the, just like right here, we're talking about the creative process. And I've had some amazing, you know, I had today I spoke with Billy Finkelstein, who's, you know, he's, he's a, he's on the writing staff of the spin off to the good wife. And he did the feature. He did, he wrote the this Bad Lieutenant re Bad Lieutenant city of city of New Orleans that Werner Herzog directed with, with Nicolas Cage, which was very good film. He just, he did that. So we talked about that. And he worked on La law, and he worked on cop rock, and it's good friend of David Milch and the real interesting guys working on all these different shows. Work on law and order, and now he's on this show at CBS. So talked about, you know, running shows and creating shows. And I've had, I've had, I'm going to be talking with Beck Smith, who's an indie specialist at United agency, next week, and I'm going to speak to someone who works at Upright Citizens Brigade and stand up comic, and I'm going to be and I've had other interesting guests. So the process that I and K, please check it out. And any requests for kinds of guests, I'm open to feedback about what I'm doing on the show.

Dave Bullis 47:11
Excellent. And I will also link to that in the show notes. Everyone. You can always find me at Dave bullis.com and Twitter. It's at Dave underscore Bullis Tom, I want to say thank you very much going on the show, sir.

Tom Benedek 47:23
Thank you very much. This is a pleasure, and I hope we'll, we'll talk soon. I'll see you in the Warner Herzog class.

Dave Bullis 47:28
Yeah, right, exactly. It's, it's a small world. But yeah, I know Tom, I know we'll, our pairs will cross again very soon.

Tom Benedek 47:38
Okay, thank you. Thank you, Dave.

Dave Bullis 47:39
Take care Tom.