IFH 763: How to Outline Your Screenplay Like a Pro with Naomi Beaty

Alex Ferrari 0:20
I'd like to welcome back to the show. returning champion, Naomi Beaty. How you doing Naomi?

Naomi Beaty 0:36
Hi, I'm good. How are you?

Alex Ferrari 0:39
I'm good. I'm good. Thank you so much for coming back on the show. You have a new book, hold on, let me just lift it over here. It's the screenwriting outline workbook. It's really not that big guys, I'm just making it. But it's fast. It's a really great, you know, as I was going through it, it's man, it's really cool, has some really great guidances on how to put together a screenplay, which is now there's not a lot of this out in the marketplace. I haven't seen a lot of this kind of. I mean, there's a couple screenwriting books, not too many.

Naomi Beaty 1:08
There's a few.

Alex Ferrari 1:09
There's a few. But I haven't seen anything like this before. So we're gonna kind of dive into the book and what you're doing in it. But first, can you give everybody a little update on who you are? If the case they haven't heard the first episode?

Naomi Beaty 1:21
Yeah, yeah, well, sure. The first episode was years ago, so much has changed since then, I'm pretty much still the same, though. Still doing the same thing. So I'm a screenwriting teacher and script consultant, I work with writers also, you know, directors and producers, one on one on their projects, giving them feedback on at the script level. And sometimes even starting earlier than that, and helping them develop ideas so that they can get the script written. But yeah, basically just working with anyone who has a movie idea to kind of get that idea, you know, into screenplay form, and hopefully in good shape, so they can start showing it to people.

Alex Ferrari 1:56
Very good. So first question. Yeah. What is a screenplay outline? Because I like how do you go about it? What is it? How do you put it together?

Naomi Beaty 2:06
Yeah, I mean, it's a great question, because I think a lot of people set out to write a screenplay, and they decide they need to outline it. And then they just quickly come to the next question, which is, what is an outline. And I think, you know, when it comes to outlining your screenplay, I just think of outlining as part of the prewriting process. So it's just part of the process that helps you develop your idea and flesh it out and get it to a point where you know enough about it in order to write screenplay pages, and whatever form that takes, you know, what it looks like on the page in the outline form can be a lot of different things. It's what is the most useful to you. So a screenplay outline is really a tool for you to use sort of on the you know, on the path toward getting your screenplay written. For most people, it's, you know, a numbered list of scenes or bullet, bullet point list of scenes or beats, you know, plot beats, that just sort of take you from page one to the end so that you have sort of a map to help you write the actual screenplay itself.

Alex Ferrari 3:11
So the next, the next statement I have is what I always hear from people, especially young screenwriters, they say. But outlining takes all the creativity out of it. It's so so structured and and it's formulaic. And I don't want to be Hollywood, I want to be free flow, I want to be like Quinton, I just want to jump back and forth. And this and that. And I always tell him, I hate to tell you, but quit and use a structure and Pulp Fiction, very structured and actually goes through the beats of, which is why that script is so cheap. It's it actually goes through all the beats, but in different timelines. And it makes the head hurt reading that script and trying to break that script down. But that's a master. And that's what he does. So what what's your answer to people who say that this just takes all the creativity out of it?

Naomi Beaty 3:59
Yeah, I've heard that too. And I, I understand that concern, right, because it sort of feels like if I do all of the creative thinking in the outline form and get everything figured out, and written down before I get to writing screenplay pages, then I'm not gonna have anything left. When I get to the pages, I'm going to be bored by my own story, and just, you know, transcribing it from outline to screenplay page. And I understand that concern, but I wholeheartedly disagree with it. You know, every writer is different, and everyone has their own unique sort of process and way of fleshing out an idea. However, I think that the the outlining process can actually be a really creative part of the process, right? Like, why do you think that just because you're doing you're putting your creativity into the outline, does that mean that there's not going to be any creativity left in your screenplay, right? You're actually doing a lot of that creative, heavy lifting. When you're thinking about, well, how do I structure that So how do I develop the character arc? How do I, you know, make sure the relationships are sort of developed all the way from beginning to end, and they're seamless. And then you have a function and a, you know, an emotion to them and all of that stuff. So I think you can do a lot of that while you're in the outline phase. So that by the time you get to writing screenplay pages, it's not that you've beaten a dead horse, and you've, you know, sort of taken all the fun out of it for for yourself, you've done so much of the heavy lifting and put a lot of creativity in at that phase, that when you get to writing scenes, you get to have a lot of fun with what happens in a scene, right? Like, how does that come to life? What's the most entertaining interesting way for that thing that you figured out? That needs to happen? Right? You figured that out in the screenplay, outline? What's the most interesting cinematic way for that to play out, you know, in your screenplay, screenplay pages, and then in the mind's eye, right? So I think that you can be creative in every step.

Alex Ferrari 5:58
So in other words, like for the structure, literally, you're, you're basically beating it out or putting the points of things that have to happen in each scene. So it's like, Okay, John has to hit Joe, in this scene, because this is the catalyst for this part of the story. Now how that breaks down in that scene, it's completely up to you, you can make it really fun. At the end of the day, he has to get from point A to point B, how you get between point A and point B is completely up to you. And that's part of the creative process. But at least you have something to start with, as opposed to a lot of writers, including myself, when I first started just like, I'm just going to start and see what happens and just let it flow. And it just been a hot mess. It's a hot mess, because you don't know where you're going. And I also don't have the at that, at that stage in my career didn't have the, the craft built up. I mean, if Eric Roth wants to sit down and start writing from scratch without an outline, I'm gonna say it's gonna be better than most right? You know, but But you have to build up that craft. And I think the structure is so needed and you can't build a house without a foundation about structure.

Naomi Beaty 7:04
Right! And you make a really good point because I think like, you know, Eric Roth, Aaron Sorkin if if those guys at that caliber, if they sit down to write a screenplay, they've they've done this for so long, and have such an innate sense of like how a screenplay works, not just story structure, because I think all of us have a little bit of that innate sense of story structure, but they've got it like, ingrained, they know, story structure in screenplay form, and sort of what needs to happen page by page on a screenplay, how the rhythm is, you know, how characters develop, where you see complications and things like that, those guys could probably sit down and write a pretty good draft without, without doing an outline first, but for a lot of us, and for most of us, I think, you know, there are so many things that you have to remember when you're writing a good screenplay, if you're trying to write a good screenplay, so many skill sets, right. And so I think thinking through the plot and character development in the outline phase, actually take some of the pressure off of you, it allows you to kind of, you know, pay attention to certain skill sets at this point in time. And then when you get to screenplay pages, you can pay attention to other skill sets, you can think about dialogue and scene description, and you know, getting in the scene late and getting out early, and, you know, thinking in visuals, like cinematic stuff, right to make it appealing in terms of being a movie. So you have so many skill sets to worry about, I think that, you know, giving some of them your attention in different phases will only help you end up with a better product, you know,

Alex Ferrari 8:36
Without question now. So many times we want to figure out what the ideas are. Do you have any idea generating ways to generate some ideas about this themes about that? Ideas? All that kind of stuff? Yeah, definitely.

Naomi Beaty 8:49
I do have a couple. I mean, thank you, for teeing me up. I do have a couple of exercises in the book that are all about generating concepts for screenplays, right? Because it seems like people who get stuck at sort of the idea phase when they can't decide how to move forward with one project they they have, like, they get stuck in two different ways. One, it's either they have too many ideas, they don't know which one to do first, or to work on first. And then the other thing is like, I don't know, I want to write a screenplay. But I don't have an idea for a movie, right? So one of the things that I put in the book was a couple of exercises that can help you generate concepts by you know, sort of playing games, because I think that's the most low pressure way to do it is look at treatment like a game and just have fun with it. So there are a couple in there about like mixing and matching, you know, different elements and kind of generating concepts. And I think, you know, an important part of it is just generating a lot of ideas because that's the only way you're not going to get precious about the one idea that you're sure is an Oscar winner and it's going to be a million dollar spec sale. If you have lots of ideas, then you can kind of be a little bit more, you know, gracious with yourself and got, like, you know what, maybe that one's not going to work this year because I don't have the craft yet. Or maybe that's not such a great idea. After all, it's a better as a novel or a comic book or something like that. And you can, you know, have allow yourself to, to be a little bit more choosy about which screenplays you're gonna write.

Alex Ferrari 10:16
Now I have to talk to so many screenwriters over the years, I've you know, off air and on I love the off air ones, because that's when I really get some nitty gritty stuff that I can't that I can't broadcast, unfortunately. But I've been told by many of these top screenwriters that they did borrow structure from other movies very, I mean, they call wholeheartedly like, you know, like I saw this movie, and I took it structure, change the story around and change the, the ideas around but and the characters around, but the structure is there. And I always love using this example because it's so blatant. And after I tell this, most people go I can't believe I never saw that before. Fast and Furious. is pointing break. Yeah. I mean, they didn't even try to change it. They just changed surfing to Grace cars, and a couple other cars. I mean, it's pretty much the same movie, right?

Naomi Beaty 11:09
Yeah. Yeah. Yes, I have actually not done like a side by side comparison. I think that'd be really interesting to do, because the broad strokes of it for sure are, it's the same, you know, it's the same story.

Alex Ferrari 11:22
So that's another thing for screenwriters, you know, starting up to look at other movies that they might admire. And start with those structures. I think that's one thing that's always been a lot of people think is taboo. But all the greats, start with other people's all artists, start with other people's ideas, and try to emulate other people's ideas. And then as you start working through it, then you start coming up with your own style, but structure structure. I mean, it's like, why wouldn't you take a blueprint of a house that worked and worked well, and then dress it up, however, you want to dress it up and change the walls, you know, add a door here, put a door there, change the roof side, style, but at the end of the day, it's a structure that sells

Naomi Beaty 12:02
I totally agree. And I always tell writers, especially, you know, writers who are who are trying to get a handle on screenwriting, right, who are kind of early in their in their learning curve, I always tell them to study movies. And, you know, I think we all, we all probably watch a lot of movies, but I do think it's a helpful exercise to like choose one or two and really break those particular movies down and study them. Because I think you learn a lot from not just viewing it once or twice, or even if it's one of your favorite movies, and you've seen it a lot and you can quote it and all that stuff. But if you really like take the time to sort of examine it almost like a you know, doctor patient kind of exam, like, make a list of all the scenes that happen look at that list and examine like, Where does the inciting incident happen? Where does the break into act to happen? Notice the relationships between those two plot points, right? Because there is they have to work together in a particular way. Look at that midpoint and see how does this midpoint work? Like what does it do for the story? How does it you know, make things harder or make things more urgent? Examine all of those big turning points, because I think you'll learn a ton from not just understanding theory and understanding like the definitions of plot points and things like that, but really looking at the way that they work in movies, and especially in one particular movie. And I think that an extension of that exercise, if I can just keep going here is that paying attention to the difference between just like we were talking about, like when you make a screenplay outline, right, you might have a bullet point list of here, here are the things that need to happen. Just point by point, Joe needs to punch Tom, right. That's one bullet point and the next one, something else happens. But making that bullet point list for the movie that you're studying, because then you get to see oh, here's what happens. Joe punches, Tom. But here's how it happens in that scene. Like it's funny, or it's a you know, it's an ambush, or it's a it starts out a romantic scene, it it ends in a punch. How does that happen? Right? Because you get to like, really understand there's a difference between the what is happening, the plot thing that's happening, and the cool, interesting, fun way that that can play out on screen, which can be a million different ways. And, you know, you're saying structure is the same from you know, across sort of lots of movies, right? That's true. And then the the how that how it happens on screen is what makes it uniquely entertaining. You know, it's what makes one movie different from the other one.

Alex Ferrari 14:31
It's the color of the walls is the dresses is the furniture in the room. It's you know, if we're using the analogy of a blueprint and a house, all of that makes a difference. You know, it's all about how you add the little details to it. You know, there is you know, when when, what when we're looking at a movie, sometimes we don't know whose story it is, especially when we're starting to write a movie. We don't know whose story it is. So I always like using Shawshank as an example because I think One knows that by nausea now that I mean, it's my favorite movie of all time. And that at that you I truly and I've asked a lot of, you know experts like yourself like whose story? Is it? Is it Andy story? Or is it read story? Who is the protagonist in that movie? You know, whose story is it? So that's a very important distinction to have when writing because if you don't know whose story it is, you know whose story is fightclub? Right? Is it Tyler Durden?

Naomi Beaty 15:32
Yeah, I absolutely had just another another example, kind of in the same vein, come up or come to me. Yesterday, I rewatched. Fargo. I hadn't seen that movie since I originally watched it back in like 96. Or whenever it came out. In my head in those intervening years, I believed that was March to Anderson's movie, right? And I rewatched it I was like, oh, no, I was completely miss remembering this. This is now I'm I'm totally blanking on his name. But but it's it's a it's a husband. Yeah, it's his it. He's the lead character. He's the central character in that story. It's, we start with him. We're watching what he's doing. It's his actions that are driving the story forward. She comes in like 35 minutes in to investigate, you know what he's been doing. But we're with him from the beginning. I was like, that is so interesting that I remembered it being her story, I think because I assumed the investigator on the scene is going to be the one kind of driving the story forward. But it's actually his story.

Alex Ferrari 16:37
It's really common. You start getting into a complex conversation about something like Shawshank, because I mean, who drives the story is Andy, right. But yet who's telling us the story? Right, so we're seeing the story through reds eyes. And yeah, red does do a few things to help along the way. But and he's the one driving store. Right? You know, and also their interaction is driving this. So it's a very complex. Yeah, idea. Am I right?

Naomi Beaty 17:04
Yeah, absolutely. And same with Fargo. I think that even though I'm sort of like saying that so easily that Oh, no, it's his story. I actually think it almost plays like an ensemble where it's like we start with him. It really is his through line kind of that gives us the movie, it's fine. But the other characters are so equally important that it's not super easy to just say, Oh, no, it's just this character story. And that's all we should be concerned with. You know, it's really all of them that make it work.

Alex Ferrari 17:29
So something like a Sherlock Holmes or knives out kind of scenario, which is a murder mystery, or a mystery in general. It's generally the detective whose story it is because we're seeing everything through their eyes, generally speaking, so knives out, it's Daniel Craig Wright walking through the process, the whole movie we're walking through with Daniel. Daniel Greg's eyes essentially.

Naomi Beaty 17:50
I think so. I actually only saw that movie once. And I think I may have fallen asleep. Not because it wasn't wasn't good. I just I watched it late. But um, but yeah, I think if if the movie is sort of centered on an investigation, almost always it's going to be the person doing the investigating, right? Because that's the sort of like, through line of action that we're that we're paying attention to. It's the reason this story exists is because there's something to investigate and the person doing the investigation is who we're kind of like watching do the thing. And hopefully we're rooting for them, you know?

Alex Ferrari 18:22
So like, clear reason, science with labs. It's, it's her it's definitely her story.

Naomi Beaty 18:27
No, I call it her story. For sure. I don't know if anyone would disagree. But yeah,

Alex Ferrari 18:31
I think it's who you remember from that movies? Not much is Hannibal?

Naomi Beaty 18:35
Yeah, absolutely. And I think you remember, you really remember their relationship. That's a movie that I you know, maybe two or three years ago, I that was one that I really started studying. I was like, I want to understand how this one works. And I think prior to that, I had assumed that Clarys is sort of through line was really about Hannibal and then when I rewatched it, you know, and this was like three or four years ago, whatever. But I started sort of watching it to study it a little bit more. And I realized, oh, no, like she meets him early on. But then her investigation is her investigation. And then she brings him back into it again. But it's not his story at all. It's you know, it's what he can do for her it's him in support of her story. For sure.

Alex Ferrari 19:20
It's, it's, it's fascinating to say and another thing we were talking about structure and finding structures of movies that we that that you know, studying other people's to other other movie structures and possibly using those structures in your own stories. I think a really good exercise is to analyze your top 10 Because it's if it means something to you if you are and then you can start seeing the patterns you like even if you'd like revenge movies. Well, maybe you should write a revenge movie. If you like horror, maybe you should read horror if you love romance, you maybe want to write romance as opposed to like I really love horror but I'm going to make when When Harry Met Sally, like that's probably not going to work out.

Naomi Beaty 19:59
Maybe that It could be a whole new rom com.

Alex Ferrari 20:02
Jason Blum Jason Blum will produce it absolutely. Yeah.

Naomi Beaty 20:04
I like that. No, I agree. And as an as an extension of that, I will say, too, I think when you have when you have a few, like movie ideas under your belt, not that you have to have written the screenplays yet, but when you have like, sort of, you know, practice developing an idea, kind of teasing it out to see kind of what's there and maybe, maybe gotten to an outline stage, who knows. I also think it's really interesting and useful to sort of look at the common themes between those ideas. Because I think a lot of times writers kind of circle the same thematic ideas in their projects without realizing it. And I see this sometimes, you know, not to embarrass anyone, but I see this sometimes because I work with certain writers over several projects. And I'm like, Oh, so this one is also about, you know, familial obligation, or this one, dad. Right. This one is also about, you know, that sort of that same issue that you find really interesting. And I think it's, I think it's kind of funny that, you know, often writers don't even realize they're doing it. They're like, Oh, yeah, I guess I'm kind of writing the same story over again, you know, different concept, but dealing with the same issues or types of relationships or something like that. I think that's really interesting to examine. Because, you know, if you find that about yourself, if you're like, Oh, I kind of keep going back to that same well, because that's an issue that's really interesting to me, then you can lean into that, right, that can become kind of part of your calling card, your voice your portfolio, you know, that you put out there so

Alex Ferrari 21:32
Yeah, I mean, it's your superpower. It's, you're really starting to get that that secret sauce, that's yours. And if you're passionate about I mean, look, Nora Ephron. She really found her superpower, you know what, and found his superpower. And Aaron found that, like, you know, Shannon, Shane Black, they all found that thing that they really resonate with and leaned into it, as opposed to, I mean, I'm sure Shane Black romantic comedy would be extremely interesting. Yes, I think I think a Tarantino romantic comedy would be extremely interesting. But it's not something that they lean into. Right? You know. So that's something to think about, as you're as you're moving forward. Now, in your book, you also talk about the four elements essential elements of a story foundation. Can you tell us what those four elements are?

Naomi Beaty 22:21
Yeah, I mean, I think they're, they sound really basic, but there's something that every story needs, right? So you need your protagonist or your central character, however you want to think about that. Sometimes you're you might be dealing with an ensemble or a pair, but I just sort of for default sake, I call it a protagonist, right? That's number one, the story goal that they're trying to achieve over the course of the story, because the entire movie is based on the pursuit of that endpoint, right? That's the that gives the story, its structure. The opposition, or you can think of it as the antagonist, right? The main obstacle or main thing standing in your protagonist way? And then the stakes? Why? Why do they want to achieve this goal? Why why is it important to them? What happens if they fail? There's some motivation there to keep them going. Right?

Alex Ferrari 23:10
All right. And then always, always find out about the everyone's always figuring and thinking about the hero's journey, or the three act structure. Why is the three act structure the most popular not for actor five Act, or seven act structure that, you know, some some projects, especially plays have? You know, why is it always the three act structure that everyone kind of leans into in Hollywood? Yeah,

Naomi Beaty 23:34
I think by default, we talk about movies in 3x structure, it's sort of become the common language of the industry, right, we sort of have all agreed that like, this is sort of the framework for movies, you have three acts, you have a setup and escalation and a resolution. And that just is sort of, you know, the the baseline is how most movies work. Not every movie, there are certainly exceptions to the rule. But mainstream movies kind of tend to have that structure. And they, they follow a particular rhythm and a pace that we're used to, right. And so those big turning points, those big structural plot points, the inciting incident, the breaking back to all of those, those create the pace of the movie. And that's why there's so much. You know, some people call them rules, right? Like your inciting incident has to happen, like page 12, or page 10, or between 10 and 15. I usually say between 10 and 15. But that's why that's kind of why those rules are accepted sort of rules, right? Because if those big turning points happen, kind of in a timely fashion, where we expect them that gives the story that gives the movie The pacing that we're used to right, it gives us that familiar rhythm, and it feels like things are happening on time and quickly enough that we're not getting bored. Right. So, to answer your question, though, I think that the 3x structure is just sort of what we've all collectively agreed is kind of Yeah, the lowest common denominator structure, and it gives you that setup escalation and resolution that we're all familiar with in stories. And that works so well, with the length of feature films, you know.

Alex Ferrari 25:12
So there's other there's movies, like I remember, like in Raiders of the Lost Ark, which has, from what I understand five acts, but you can argue it has 3x. And a lot of 5x, a lot of 3x could be argued that have 5x, and you can start kind of breaking it down. And so is it kind of almost almost irrelevant to a certain extent, as long as you're hitting those beats. But a lot of these movies have different acts that don't line up exactly the way we want it to.

Naomi Beaty 25:41
Yeah, and I would agree that it is largely irrelevant, because we don't have curtains on the movies that tell you when the ACT breaks happen. And so you know what I mean. So this is all sort of like, again, I think remembering that this is all in an effort to have a particular effect on an audience. And that's why we concern ourselves with structure, right, because we want our movies to feel like they have a particular pace and a particular, you know, shape that is somewhat familiar, but also surprising, and takes us on an emotional journey and all of that stuff. So that's why we pay attention to structure. And that's not to say that every movie has to fall into 3x structure, there are definitely movies that you could say have 5x Or sometimes people say they have 4x, right, because you have act to split into into two parts. I don't think it really matters, like you're saying I think it's it's sort of irrelevant. It's how it feels? And is it delivering the effect on the audience that you want it to have? Basically, all of these like rules and tools and paradigms and things that we that we try to study and try to adhere to are in an effort to keep the audience from being bored, and to keep the audience reinvesting in the story. Right? So as long as you can do that, who cares how many acts you've sat down to write it with? But all of all that said, I do think it's helpful for newer writers who are studying, you know, screenwriting and trying to figure out how do I get this story idea out of my head and into a screenplay? I think it's useful for them to study three act structure and to understand like, what is that effect that I'm trying to have on the audience at each turning point or at each particular section of the script? When I teach in some of my my, like, first draft workshops, I use eight sequences. So you could look at those as being eight acts, you know what I mean?

Alex Ferrari 27:36
It's I think, I think what you're saying is just don't get caught up too much in it. But if you're starting out, it is the base, it is the foundation, the hero's journey, as is, which is so famously, you know, brought to our attention by by Mr. Joseph Campbell, is something that every writer, every storyteller needs to know whether they use it or not. Men, it's very difficult to use the hero's journey in a detective story, right? It doesn't, it doesn't it doesn't line up. But you should be able to know those things. These are basic understandings that you need to know as a screenwriter. And if you're going to make and this is a frustration I've seen with a lot of screenwriters is they'll write a screenplay, and think they're very artistic. And then they try to submit it to Hollywood. And it doesn't get any action and the like, why don't they recognize my genius, I go because you haven't played by Hollywood's rules. I don't care if you like it or not. It's I mean, every big movie that gets made any anything's made by a major studio has this kind of structure that we're talking about, has these turning points and point of no return. And it really does kind of follow the hero's journey, if it's if it's according to the, to the genre that they're writing in. So you kind of you know, fall into that now, once you build up, and God forbid, have a career in the business of writing to three, if you've sold three, four, or five, six scripts, and I've produced a whole bunch of stuff and you want to start playing around, right? Then you can start testing the waters because you have a name. If Quinton wants to come out and write whatever the hell he wants to. He can have someone reading a telephone book for two hours. Someone's gonna watch it. Because right so if Sorkin or st black or any of these great writers want to test the medium, or push it, they deserve they've earned that. Right. Right. Can't do that when you walk up.

Naomi Beaty 29:28
Well, and also Yeah, I mean, I totally agree. And also, like we were saying before any of those writers that have really, you know, been kind of in the trenches for a long time and have ingrained those that understanding of, well, here's why, you know, we say the inciting incident goes here, right? Here's the effect I'm trying to have on the audience. They know that that effect is really just about like, grabbing our attention and letting us know the story is starting. So if they have another way to do that, that doesn't feel like a traditional inciting incident. You know, they have that sort of understanding of cause asked whether they realize it or not that they can kind of like do something interesting. And we go, oh, that works because I'm interested, you know, and that's the whole point is like, get your audience interested, kind of like, you know, get us emotionally invested. And then keep us there as you tell us the story. Yeah, so

Alex Ferrari 30:15
But but I think that if you're walking in to Hollywood and trying to get a job in Hollywood, I think living in that structured world, to start is probably the best, the best way to get in the door. And to build up and to build a career up. I'm not saying to be formulaic, but Right, if everyone that I mean, that's what's selling.

Naomi Beaty 30:37
And also Yeah, I mean, writers have, you know, voiced that concern a lot. I think, you know, when you talk about structure, a lot of writers get worried that like, it's going to feel formulaic, it's going to feel like, you know, you know exactly what's coming, and you can expect everything. I don't think that's the case, it's like, understanding that structure is a tool for the writer, right? It gives you a starting point, a jumping off point where you go, Okay, so here's, here's three act structure, I know kind of broad strokes. Here's where the setup happens. Here's where the escalation happens, here's where the resolution happens. That doesn't mean that you have to have things occur in the most expected way, or the way we've seen happen a million times before, right? There's there that just gives you kind of the sandbox to play in. And then it's up to you to find interesting ways to convey the information that we need in order to follow your story, you know, and

Alex Ferrari 31:28
I was watching a movie the other day, and I can't remember because I watched so much content, it's hard to keep it all together in my head. But I remember it was sitting there with my wife watching the movie one night, and it was good. And we were really intrigued with it. And then at the end, where it was like that, that the all is lost moment in the screen, which is towards the end of the second act going into the third act. We didn't see it coming. We knew that moment was going to come but how it came was like, Oh, the mother's the killer was. Yeah, it was just like I didn't you just because the writer and the director did such a good job. You know, throwing red herrings out all over the place that you just did just came out of nowhere, but in a really good way. So there is always ways to surprise an audience, but it's still going to happen around that time to how it happens is up to you.

Naomi Beaty 32:16
Right! Yeah. And I love it when a movie can do that. Right when it doesn't when it doesn't feel expected or formulaic. Or like I've seen it before.

Alex Ferrari 32:25
I mean, let's go back. And this is a spoiler alert. Sixth Sense. If you haven't seen it, it's on you. The greatest one of the greatest twists in movie history. Yeah. happened at a structural point. It happened exactly where it was supposed to happen. But boy, that no one else, no one saw that comment, like no one saw it coming. But it's still happened at the point where you're just like, Huh, that's the point where it was that turning point had to happen. But the way he did it was just like, holy cow. Yeah. And

Naomi Beaty 32:59
It all comes down to the effect on the audience. Right? Because it was like that the audience had been led to a point where that reveal had the most impact. And that's, you know, that's kind of what we're always talking about when when it comes to structure.

Alex Ferrari 33:12
Well, if you look at the movie like psycho, I mean, let's look at that structure for a second. You, you know, again, spoiler alert. 1960. Sorry. But when, when she dies when Norman kills are in the shower. That's the beginning of the second act. But what's so brilliant about that script is now you're like, Okay, who? Whose story? Oh, wait a minute, they swapped out protagonist. Yeah. Which was so brilliant. You just like, in the end, like you killed off the movie star in the first 15 minutes. Like it was such a brilliant way. And no one had ever done anything like that before. But then again, where did it happen? The inciting incident? That's the inciting incident of the movie essentially. Am I right?

Naomi Beaty 33:55
I think so. Yeah, I haven't watched that movie. And so long, but I would believe you if you said this is the inciting incident. Because again, because you know that you're trying to have a particular effect on the audience. And it's like, that makes sense for that to happen right there. Because that shakes things up. Right? It it tells us that something is changing. And the story is starting now, because this just happened, you know

Alex Ferrari 34:14
Exactly, exactly. No, we're not. We've been talking a lot about structure. Let's talk about character a little bit. How do you develop an engaging main character? That's if you have any tips on that?

Naomi Beaty 34:25
It's a good question. And I think there you know, probably a million different ways. However, I do think it's useful to think about like, what is sort of reverse engineer right and think about what are the ways that that an audience or an individual person becomes engaged in a story right, because the story that we're watching comes through the protagonist character, we're watching one particular character story usually. So thinking about like, what engages us and a lot of times it's those those like emotions that you know you can rely on to get somebody invested. So it's, you know, engaging our empathy for a character showing us that there's someone that we that we should care about or you know, want to care about. And there's a reason to care about them, engaging our our sort of like, tension or fear about what might happen for them the anticipation that something bad might happen. So if you put a character in jeopardy, then we sort of lean in and we go, oh, this is this is a character I'm interested in, in following because I want to know what happens to them, and I care about it. And then also, I think, getting us to like a character, there's so much said about, you know, making your character likable. And I know that writers here hate to hear that, that your character has to be like, well, and I'm not saying that at all, actually. But um, but getting us to either like them or admire them or find them appealing in some way, I think is a really useful thing to think about that is so simple and so often overlooked, right? Like, thinking about making your character appealing should be should be kind of a, you know, one of the early things that you think about, because if you think about this in terms of like, it's a product that you're trying to sell to someone, the movie is a product, right? There's got to be appealing, selling points about it. And so hopefully, your protagonist, your central character, is one of those selling points, one of those appealing selling points. So thinking about like, can you make them funny? Can you make them good at what they do? Can you give them like unique talents or skills, or even sometimes just a unique personality that is engaging? Those are little tricks to kind of like hook hook our interest and start to get us to lean in.

Alex Ferrari 36:35
I mean, and a movie in recent years that did this so beautifully was Joker. I mean, Joker, you literally he's the villain. He's one of the great villains of all time, not only cinematic, but in literature. He's really brilliantly written villain. And yet, how do you identify with a villain and man did they just structure that story and that character, so you feel the insanity of what it's like to be The Joker and totally, and you're going through that your journey with them and at the edge? So you feel better? Like yeah, he's doing Amos stuff. But you're like, but I get it, like I can understand where you're coming from. It's not just the twisting of the moustache, one dimension eight, right layer upon layer upon layer upon layer with that movie. Yeah, that was so done so beautifully.

Naomi Beaty 37:28
And if they had relied on, you know, I think this does happen actually, in a lot of sort of newer writers scripts, where they go, Well, this character is just fascinating, because he's a character we love to hate, right? Like, he's just a, an antihero, and he just does terrible things. And that's why he's fascinating. And sometimes I think that that might be able to work. Like I wouldn't say that it can never work. But if you think about it, the thing that made Joker such a such a compelling character, right, is that it played on our empathy it that movie did such a, like you're saying such a beautiful job of like, showing us this character who isn't good. But there's so much that's in him that we can understand why he is the way he is, right? And I think it's human nature to have empathy for other people. So that movie does such a good job of playing on our, our own empathy, like as humans. And then also I think a little bit it plays on kind of the the, the same appeal that like true crime does. We want to understand how this person got this way, and what makes them do the things they do. So like the the sort of dual, you know, qualities in people of empathy and curiosity. I think that movie, like hit it on the head with that character,

Alex Ferrari 38:44
And that they made his maniacal laugh. And illness. Yes, yeah, was a stroke of genius, because that's the cartoony thing about the Joker. It's a comic book character, but that they made it an actual illness. It's like, oh, no, he's suffering when he's laughing. Oh, it's just like, oh, so good. Yeah. And

Naomi Beaty 39:05
It's such a good, you know, it just plays on us, right? Because the first time you're sort of like, Oh, it's just like a real life experience, where you might see somebody doing something that at first puts you on guard, and you're like, Oh, that's weird. I should be nervous, right? But then if you learn, there's actually something behind it. Like they can't help it. It's a you know, it's a disorder. It's a it's a thing that they have to deal with, then you suddenly start to feel bad about judging and then and you know, your empathy is sort of is sort of like rolled out for them.

Alex Ferrari 39:37
Yeah, exactly. ramped up. It's like someone with Tourette's, you're like, oh, that's just a foul mouth person. You're like, Oh, my God, he can't he she can't help it. Right. So it's a completely so they touched on that such a brilliant moment in that and that character development. And, you know, speaking of villains, I think when you were saying that, you know, oh, he's an antihero, he's, he's bad because he's just he's fascinating to look at that right. I'd have played in 1920 doesn't play now we're just too advanced for that. So even a movie like endgame Avengers endgame, where Thanos, who is, you know, the biggest bad guy at the time. He really, if you look at what he was trying to do, and same thing in Black Panther, if I remember the villain and that they both had good intentions, they were just going about it the wrong way.

Naomi Beaty 40:23
Yeah. And I noticed

Alex Ferrari 40:24
That I just wanted to depopulate the entire universe because we were running out of resources. And I saw it on my plan. And I think I want to help everybody else, I'm just going to kill half the universe. So this is just a wrong way of going about it. But it wasn't just like, I'm bad to be bad. I just want to destroy the work that that doesn't play as much as to one dimensional now. Right?

Naomi Beaty 40:46
Yeah. And I, Black Panther is a good example of that, too. And I don't remember all of the specifics. But I do remember thinking that antagonist is such a, it's almost difficult to decide who you should, you know, give your allegiance to, because he, he was a guy who was reacting to the way he was brought up. And he, you know, his background and the circumstances that he found himself in, and he had intentions to that he was like, No, based on all of that, based on what I know, and what I've experienced, here's what should happen, right? And you kind of can't. That's what's so interesting about those characters is that you get to see what motivates them, and understand where they're coming from. And then it's like, it's even more compelling to us, I think, as viewers because we're like, I don't want to agree with him. But I kind of see where he's coming from, you know,

Alex Ferrari 41:34
And that's what and that's what keeps you engaged in the stories that you're following. So why Black Panther was not it was such a monster hit for many reasons. But that if that villain wasn't right, that it would have been, it wouldn't have helped destroy the string of the story as well, as it did. And, you know, we talked about introductions of, or talking about main characters, introducing a character is something so important. And I just when I was reading that in your book, I was like, oh, Indiana Jones Raiders of Lost Ark. Mat, not a word spoken, I think maybe one or two words that have nothing about his character. But that whole opening sequence all the way up until the Boulder is about to crush him. Sorry, spoiler alert. This episode, I mean, I mean, seriously, guys, I can't help it. But the entire time you find out so much about who Indiana Jones is, within the first five to 10 minutes of movie without a word spoken? It's really It's fascinating. Well, I mean, Lance cast and is such a brilliant.

Naomi Beaty 42:37
Yeah, well, he's Yeah, right. And movies. You know, I think that that's one thing that also, it's easy to overlook, again, coming back to the idea that there are so many skill sets to remember when you're trying to write a good screenplay. One of them is how do you introduce your protagonist in a way that conveys? You know, that gives us some information to go on, you want it as quickly as possible conveyed as who is this character? And why should we be watching them? Right? And that's an easily overlooked thing. Because when you're juggling all those skill sets, you're like, Okay, I gotta get my, my protagonist in here, somehow. And so, you know, very often we see that he wakes up, he brushes his teeth, he goes to work. And you know, sometimes that can give us valuable information about the character. But a lot of times, that's just the first thing you thought of, right. So thinking about, like, thinking about what could be a more, you know, a more full introduction to your character, like a more, you know, interesting but also revealing introduction to them that can tell us more about them, just besides, you know, where they sleep and how they brush their teeth. I think the character the protagonist, introduction is such a great place where and again, talking about like not beating the creativity out of your story. By the time you get to writing your script, like coming up with that introduction, you don't want to have all these other things to think about because you want to be able to take the time to like brainstorm what's the most interesting way for me to introduce that character.

Alex Ferrari 44:05
And when you were saying that someone like, oh, they go up or they brush their teeth, and they wash their face. First thing that popped in my head is Jack Nicholson as good as it gets, which is an amazing character introduction, because again, not a word is said, but by his his entire opening morning sequence, you learn like 90% of what you need to know about this character. And the other 10% are kind of revealed beautifully throughout the rest of the script of its internal but you just know so quickly, who this person is. Tom Cruise and Rayman in the first 5010 minutes you've know who this guy is so it's it's it

Naomi Beaty 44:45
It was it Bill Murray in What About Bob? Is that the one where he swallows the toothbrush?

Alex Ferrari 44:52
I think it might be I haven't seen What About Bob and forever but yeah, I think it might be me. Although, I mean Even him in Groundhog's Day, you kind of you know or even know even better his introduction and Ghostbusters when he's yeah what he's doing the the psychic tests that the way he does it and he's being pervy, and he's you know all you just know everything you need to know about Beckman like,

Naomi Beaty 45:17
Yeah, tell really quickly, what made me think about what about Bob is because we were talking about brushing the teeth and I feel like that's that's if I'm remembering right that movie he's like brushing his teeth but he swallows the toothbrush. And it's like, of course that works because that's not the traditional he wakes up, he brushes his teeth, he goes to work. This is a guy who like, you know, his default way of waking up and brushing his teeth is weird, and tells us kind of that he's not normal, which was very important to know in that movie.

Alex Ferrari 45:46
And I think as a good, a good kind of way to have an exercise that you should do as a screenwriter is to look at some of your favorite movies and see how they introduce those characters. Because as we're talking like Tom Hanks, and Turner and Hooch when he was you know, didn't the, you know, doing everything, he's cleaning his nose hairs, like, you know, his whole house, within the first five minutes, you know, this guy's a neat freak. And then of course, Gooch comes into and messes up his world. So it's all beautifully done. So if you start analyzing how these characters are introduced? Well, that's a really helpful thing, because I think in in, you know, beginning scripts and bad scripts, characters are just like, they just show up and there's a one dimensional like, oh, look, he's got tattoos on and he had a suit on like, No, don't, you know, or, Hey, Bob, how's that job? Like? They say that they don't show it. And it's something that we really, it's something we need to fight against?

Naomi Beaty 46:38
Yeah, it is it is it? Well, it's an opportunity for you to be creative, right, it's an opportunity for you to like, give us a scene that we're going to fall in love with both, we're going to fall in love with the movie, we're gonna fall in love with your writing, we're going to fall in love with the character. So that protagonist introduction, you know, no pressure, but it has some, it's a really good opportunity for you to do something cool and interesting and compelling. So don't you know, don't waste it because you only have a certain number of pages for us to be engaged in to fall in love with what you're doing. So that's even a one, even Vin

Alex Ferrari 47:13
Diesel and fast and furious when we're introduced to him. I mean, it's not super complex. It's not nearly as great as gamble as the other ones. But all you need to know about him is laid out in the first time you see him when he's racing and how he races. What he does, it's very important to his character, and how he's introduced. So it's these kinds of things that that screenwriters need to think about with it. Because once you're hooked with the main character, if you do your job, right, you're on the journey with them.

Naomi Beaty 47:42
Yeah, you know which one I'll I'll throw one more at you which character introduction I love is Erin Brockovich. Oh, no, because you immediately know who she is. I mean, it's a it's an it's a scene that could very well be a cliche, because it's a job interview, right? Where she's being asked questions where she's answering questions, but it's an opportunity to give us a bunch of information right up front about who the character is, how she thinks, what her experience in the world is. And then right after that, you know, talk about like triggering our empathy. We see her sight, not sideswiped. What's it called T boned by another car. You know, she's already like, not, you know, not great financially. She's looking for a job, she's struggling. And then this happens. And you know, who doesn't have empathy for her after that?

Alex Ferrari 48:32
I mean, she's the underdog. There's, there's, she's definitely the underdog and you like, but she's a fighter, and like, hey, I want an underdog. I'm a fighter. I'm gonna go with her on this journey. Right. That's it. That's how you go. Now in your book, you also talk about a story chart, what is the story?

Naomi Beaty 48:46
Well, I have a couple of different story charts in in the book. And, you know, they're they're really just like tools and exercises that I put together. Not just when I was writing the book, but with writers that I work with, to sort of try to help people get clear on the story they're telling, right? Because I think one of the one of the instincts that newer writers have sometimes is like, I have an idea. Now I'm just gonna sit down and write the whole thing. And it's like, there are a lot of steps that could help you get a grasp on what it is you're trying to write. Because not knowing what you're trying to write, I think is a very quick way to get stuck and get writer's block and to abandon that project and never finish that screenplay. So I'm trying to help writers not get to that point. I want them to understand what they're trying to write and sort of develop their ideas in baby steps so that it doesn't feel hard. It doesn't feel overwhelming, and they get to the screenplay and can actually write the whole thing. So the story chart that I have in the book is it's basically just taking kind of the broad strokes of a story it's it's almost like the Once Upon a Time then this happened then this happened kind of template for a story, right? It's like that, that traditional sort of story that we all know and understand. It's sort of Have a version of that just taking the broad strokes of a feature film, like, here's kind of what happens in all the big sections, and laying out into charts so that you can use it as prompts to kind of figure out okay, so in my story, in this broad strokes section, this is where we meet the character and understand, you know, kind of where they are in life right now. So you can then brainstorm and fill that in for your story and kind of, again, it's a baby step. It's a way to kind of like, start to get clear on what needs to happen in each section of your story.

Alex Ferrari 50:30
And what's a springboard? I heard, I saw that I love to hear what that is.

Naomi Beaty 50:34
Yeah, that's, we were talking about the eight sequences, right? So I teach, you know, getting through first draft using springboards and sequences. It's one of the methods that I use to outline basically a way to figure out what happens in each part of your story. So the way I teach it is the you know, a screenplay is can be broken up into eight sequences, and in between each sequence is a springboard. So it's a plot point, a lot of the a lot of the springboards that you'll find are actually those major plot turning points, right? So the inciting incident is a springboard the break into Act Two is a springboard. The midpoint is the springboard the break into three. So those kind of turning points are springboards for the next section of the script. So what happens at that plot point, sends us in a particular direction that the next section of script plays out. And that's, that's basically it. Does that makes sense?

Alex Ferrari 51:31
That makes that makes perfect. Now, I'm gonna ask you a few questions. I ask all of my guests. Oh, sure. What advice would you give a screenwriter trying to break into the business today?

Naomi Beaty 51:41
Interesting. Well, there's so much advice to be given. But I guess it depends on who I'm talking to, in terms of where are they in the journey. But if they have written those screenplays that they're really proud of, and are getting good feedback. And they just feel like they need to know some piece of information before they can, like, make that big break, right? I think my best advice is to not rely on one method, I always tell writers to have a lot of irons in the fire to, you know, take a lot of different opportunities that come to them. Because you just you don't know which one is going to be the the thing that sort of breaks you in. And more often than not, I think it's a snowball effect. It's like you get a yes here. And then you can leverage that to getting into this program. And then being in that program allows you to meet, you know, certain executives, and you can kind of like use those relationships to get your foot in the door in a writers room or in you know, something else. So I think it's a snowball effect. So you should say yes to things and sort of have as many irons in the fire as you can. Because cumulatively, that's how you break in, it's not a lottery ticket. It's not one opportunity that's going to suddenly make your career and now you're in and you're never going to stop work gig and you know, and all that stuff.

Alex Ferrari 53:01
All the money just comes by trucks, I think they bring them out and they just pile the money just goes into the front.

Naomi Beaty 53:06
Yeah, that's what I've heard. I mean, I'm waiting. But

Alex Ferrari 53:09
I've been waiting for quite a few years, few decades. At this point. I've been waiting for it. Yeah. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Naomi Beaty 53:20
Deep, so many questions? Wouldn't it have been funny if I had just recycled everything that I said last time?

Alex Ferrari 53:28
Because it's been such a long time, I would have never thought of it. That's a great answer.

Naomi Beaty 53:32
Yeah, I know, I have no idea. Well. So this is I don't know if this is going to make sense. But I do think that the lesson that probably took me the longest to learn and has so many different applications is know your audience, right? And I think that that's true, when you're writing a script, you kind of have to have a sense of like, who is this for? Who is the audience for this? Who would go see this movie, because not because you're writing to the market or because you're pandering or catering just to one particular sensibility or something. But you do have to know that your the thing that you're writing is meant to be seen. And so there is an audience who should want to see this, right. So I think knowing your audience comes in, in that sense. But then also, I think it applies to the sort of working collaborations that you're going to have to have, as you know, in any part of the filmmaking process. You know, you can speak differently to a fellow writer than you can to a director or your producer or you know, whoever it is that you have to kind of do business with. And knowing the difference between a newer producer who doesn't really know what they're doing yet versus a very seasoned producer who you know, you can speak with in a different way. I think knowing your audience is just so important in every every regard.

Alex Ferrari 54:54
Absolutely. I you start talking about big words, start throwing around screenwriting jargon to a young producer. doesn't know what they're doing. And if they have an ego problem, that's when fights start busting out or like it. These are things that they don't talk about. This is not stuff that it's taught at school. So knowing who you're talking to, and knowing your audience is extremely important, your apps great answer Great answer. Now three screenplays that every screenwriter should read.

Naomi Beaty 55:18
Okay, um, well, I think my, my default answer would be choose the three screenplays that are most like things that you want to write, right that are sort of like, if you could choose screen any screenplay to have written, choose those screenplays to study, because I think that that's probably going to help you the most, right, because it'll speak directly to kind of like what you love about those stories. But if you're stuck, and you're looking for suggestions, I think, choose a, you know, I'll use this term loosely but choose a classic choose something pre 19 ad to read, just to kind of like see how stories were put together in an earlier time in an earlier era. And then choose something that's been a, you know, say, an Oscar winner for Best Screenplay in the last 20 years or something, and then choose something off of the blacklist, to to read to get a sense of like, what are what are sort of current trends in screenwriting style? How are people doing things differently now? than they were, you know, 40 years ago and 20 years ago?

Alex Ferrari 56:29
Great advice. That's a great answer. I've never had that answer before in the show. Good, good answer to that question.

Naomi Beaty 56:34
Something new.

Alex Ferrari 56:35
And finally, your three favorite films of all time.

Naomi Beaty 56:38
Oh, gosh, I'm sure that I answered this one before and probably regretted my answer immediately. Because as soon as I say my favorites, I'm like, No, but what about this one? So classics that I just go back to again and again, and I and I love them because of the effect they have on me but also because they're so interesting and have offers so much to think about and study in terms of screenwriting, Silence of the Lambs, for sure. What other one do I always go back to? Oh, you know what I love about a boy, I think that that's such an interesting screenplay and movie and it does such a good job of, you know, we're talking about sort of like, whose story is it and kind of balancing multiple characters. That's a good one to study if you are in that predicament of trying to have kind of a two hander. And then let's see. Third all time favorite. You know, a recent favorite is bridesmaids, I think that that that movie does so much right and took me so much by surprise in terms of like how well how well put together that story is

Alex Ferrari 57:42
Very cool. And where can people pick up your book, The screenplay outline workbook.

Naomi Beaty 57:48
You can get it on Amazon. It's only in paperback at the moment. So it's a physical book that you get, and you get to write in and do the exercises and hopefully, you know, develop your screenplay idea by the time you're, you're finished with it. So yeah, Amazon's the place to see it.

Alex Ferrari 58:02
Naomi, thank you so much for coming back on the show. You're welcome back anytime. I appreciate the good work you do and help some writers out there. You know, battle the problems of getting the first screenplay out there. So yeah, my dear, thank you so much.

Naomi Beaty 58:15
Thank you. Thanks for having me again.