IFH 851: Why Your Film Might Never Get Distributed (Brutal Truth) with Liz Manashil

Alex Ferrari 0:46
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:56
On this episode of the podcast, my guests and I chat about, you know, color College alumni, which is a sore spot for me, as most of you know, you know, but we also talk about Sundance. We talk about filmmaking. So by her first film, bread and butter, starring Bobby Moynihan, you know, he's a very funny guy, and she's also the manager of the Sundance creative distribution initiative, and we talked about distributing your movie with Sundance legit. This is legit. This isn't something like, oh, you know, five easy payments, and this isn't some weird scam that they call you about on the weekends or some crap. You know what? I mean, know, like those telemarketers or those robot calls that you get sometimes I usually fall for this is all legit. So this is a really good, good episode. You know that my guest this week, I'm telling you, she her personality just comes right through. I really enjoyed this episode with guest Liz Manashil.

Liz Manashil 0:46
Sure I wanted to be an actress when I was younger, and I would have, like written in stone or blood or whatever, substantial amount you know that I was going to be an actress, and then one day, I woke up and I had no desire to act anymore, and only desire to be the Director of films and theater and television and anything anyone would let me do, and basically my entire life has been trying to do that as much as possible. And in addition to that, I love talking with emerging and veteran filmmakers about the world of micro budget filmmaking as well as creative distribution and women in film, and all these topics I'm keenly interested in. So when I started working at Sundance, it was a pretty perfect fit, because I get to talk to filmmakers, and I get to essentially also still be a filmmaker myself, because I have enough time in the week to do that. It's not, it's not a very inspiring romantic story. Now that I say it out loud,

Dave Bullis 1:09
I know it'd be everyone has, you know, their own journey of how they got here. And no, I love hearing it, though, because some people, you know, they they've went to film school, they graduated, and they just were able to get a foothold in the business, and they started doing commercials or something like that, and they were able to use that. And, you know, other people have gone, you know, in this weird zigzag pattern where they've, they've, you know, they've worked in the industry, and they quit, they came back. They quit, they came back. So it's just, you know, it's always interesting just to hear all the all the different journeys and how you get to where you are,

Liz Manashil 1:09
Yeah, well, I went to film school. I mean, basically, after I decided at 16 I wanted to be a filmmaker, it was undergraduate degree in Film Studies, graduate degree in film and TV production from USC, working for a TV director at a film school, you know, donating time on sets. I was a film critic for several years. I was on TV show called just seen it, where I directed and was on camera for that show, and we would break apart films and put them back together through film criticism. But ultimately, the thing I'm most proud of is the micro budget feature I made that was released in 2015 and, of course, my job at Sundance.

Dave Bullis 1:09
So I want to ask clueless, when you were a film critic, did you ever, was there ever a point where you maybe you said you didn't want to say something too harsh about a film? Because I remember there was a question, you know, a while ago that on another podcast, and basically the question was, was given to the to the host of the podcast that, hey, I used to be a film critic, and sometimes I used to bury films. Well, now I'm starting to get into filmmaking myself and and this person was worried that there'd be like filmmakers out there with vendettas, don't you that person and buried my film. Did you ever, I mean, because I imagine, you know, that person probably went to the extreme, but was there. But I just Just out of curiosity with Liz, was there ever a point where, you know, maybe you didn't want to be too harsh on a film, or, or maybe, or even the opposite, maybe you didn't want to be too kind to a film?

Liz Manashil 2:41
Yeah, I think ultimately, I did not have a good time being a film critic because I was criticizing my colleagues, you know, our colleagues who, as we know, put their heart and soul into the work that we make. And who am I to really break it down? But I was working with other critics who would, they wouldn't be explicit about it, but they wouldn't give objectively bad reviews to anything because they were worried about their careers, and that became weird for me to witness, so I actually tended to be a little harsh on films, just so that I wasn't giving preferential treatment. So if that makes sense, like I wasn't having a good time. I did not enjoy kind of being mean to these films and setting them up and putting them to a really harsh standard. But at the same time, I was more harsh because I didn't want to give preferential treatment to films in any way.

Dave Bullis 2:41
Yeah, I know what you mean, because it is that is some of the things, things that you know I worry about too, which is, you start a blog, or maybe you start something, and if you want to start doing film criticism, you want to do it in a very, very, not only unique way, but you want to do it in a way that actually it's so you're not just constantly being negative or just being Positive, but something that actually constructive, constructive. Thank you. I couldn't think of the word

Liz Manashil 2:41
Yeah, and you're not personally insulting any individual. So, I mean, I would just speak very honestly, and I was, I think I was a little bit nicer to like lower budget fare, because that's my world. But ultimately, I want to hear what people think of my film, and I don't want them to be, you know, wearing rose colored glasses when they watch it. So I do think it's a service that that film criticism offers, but so very often it turns into just like I liked it, I didn't like it, you know, and really unsubstantial things, which is a shame, and we need better film critics these days.

Dave Bullis 4:05
Have you actually seen any of the YouTube shows I like about film criticism, or any, I mean, because I know Roger Ebert has passed, and Gene shallot, I think he's retired, and so we're like, Leonard malton's left, Richard ropers left. But there's a lot of YouTube critics, though, that are out there, and they are kind of hit or miss to me about how they actually review films, because I think, I think sometimes they're just waiting for, like, the next big Hollywood blockbuster to come along. They go see it, and they already know going in, they already know that they're going to hate it. You know what I mean?

Liz Manashil 8:34
Well, we used to actually call because we were on YouTube first, and then we moved to PBS and Hulu, and actually, we're still streaming on YouTube. We were called just seeing it, and we used to make fun of other film critics as saying it, this is horrible, by the way, what I'm saying. But we were just like, oh yeah. They're just like, in their mother's basements, and they're just screaming at the their webcams. And, you know, because there was no nothing polished or produced about the YouTube videos. But there, there are some really good critics out there, even in spite of the fact that they're just talking to a camera on their computer. But we saw them as competition, so we got really nasty about so there, I'm trying to think of like the I really love this website called the movie guys, and they're out of LA, but they have some teammates that are from Phoenix, and I think they're a really good example of substantial film criticism, and they air on YouTube, in addition to going off their own website. So there's some good stuff out there. But yeah, there's no Pauline Kael. There's no Cisco and Ebert anymore. It's kind of, I mean, we still have, you know, ao Scott and a lot of great, you know Joe, Joey Morgenstern, so there's still some good people out there.

Dave Bullis 10:05
You mentioned all the people in their mom's basement. That's kind of funny, because I have a friend of mine who does that, who says the same thing. He doesn't like to watch YouTube shows, listen to podcasts. He doesn't even listen to this one, and because he goes, I don't need an opinion from some guy living in his mom's basement with too much time on his hands. But I'm like, I'm like, Come on, man, come on, at least there's some good out there, right? But, but no, but yeah. I mean, you know, that's just a funny, you know, stereotype, obviously. But so as you sort of, you know, as you you did, just seen it, and as you sort of move to the next sort of phase, you know, in your career, you know, you started like you said you wanted to actually get into making more stuff. And I think that happens to all of us. Liz, you know, they, they basically, you know, you're at a point you're like, Man, I just want to get back to it. I just want to get, you know, sort of get my hands dirty all over again. So at what point did you actually start to sit down and say, You know what, I have to make a feature film, which ended up being bread and butter. But at what point did you get to that? Did you get there? And we finally realized you had to start going out there and making this film?

Liz Manashil 11:10
Yeah, I when I decided I wanted to be a filmmaker at 16, I knew I wanted to be a feature writer, director. I grew up in the 90s. You know, Nicole Hall of center, Allison Anders, Hal Hartley, you know, Whit Stillman. These directors were my, my inspirations. So I always wanted to be in the future writer directing world, but I was always really scared. Because, you know, when you really love something, the stakes are really high, and you just don't, am I allowed to swear on this? Okay? Yeah, you just don't want to fuck up all over the place. You know, you don't want to embarrass yourself, you and if it means something to you at this it's even more terrifying. So I went to undergraduate still knowing I wanted to be a writer, director, but, like paralyzed, unable to really make content. And it wasn't until grad school, where I was essentially forced into making short work that I was able to even feel proud of something that I made and really start to grow as an artist. And as soon as I graduated grad school, I made the ultimate decision that I was going to make a feature like come hell or high water. I was going to do it. So I crowdfunded in 2012 and this is crowdfunding for a feature without having ever made a short fiction film that I was proud of, like anything. You know, I never did the festival route with a short fiction piece. I studied documentary and learned that trade a little bit better. So I went into it very inexperienced, even for someone who went to film school, and I just did it because it was time, you know, you kind of hit a breaking point, and I woke up just like I woke up wanting to be a filmmaker one day. I woke up one day saying, I have to make this feature or I'll never make it. And that was in 2012 when we crowdfunded and we shot in 2013 we did the festival circuit in 2014 and we were released and acquired by the orchard in 2015

Dave Bullis 13:22
So when you crowdfunded, actually, let me, let me take a step back. Liz, so I have some questions too about crowdfunding. I'd been down that avenue to where you're in the middle of crowdfunding and you're like, oh my god, what have I done? But so I'm always interested to Liz about the writing of a movie, because I always, you know, the there's always all those phases, you know, they say there's, you know, pre and post and pre production, and then post production. But I always think about it as, you know, you write the movie and then you actually make the movie, and then you have to distribute the movie. And those three phases are all usually have unique spin on them. So I wanted to ask, you know, Liz, you know, writing this movie, you know, how did you go about writing it? Did you did you outline it heavily? Was it inspired by something that happened to you personally? You know, I'm again, just, you know, how did you actually start start writing this movie?

Liz Manashil 14:15
Sure, I was, I wrote it in film school. So we had a requirement in my two screenwriting classes to write a feature. The first semester was writing the first draft, and the second was essentially polishing and finishing it. So in that class, you know, we, I think we did an outline, I think we did a beat sheet. I think we, you know, eventually we started delivering pages. And then the second semester, you know, was all polished, and we did in class reading of all the work, so you could hear it out loud. I had two ideas for a movie, and I combined them together. And I was a little bit of a late bloomer romantically. So when. I got into, you know, one of my first relationships, maybe my second or my third, small relationship, the guy that I was in the relationship with, started acting a little bit different, kind of losing his grasp on his world. And you know, I say that he was going crazy. He wasn't going crazy, but he was just kind of going through something really tough. But I didn't know that, because I had never been in a real relationship before, so I thought that was really interesting. Is like, when you're new to an experience, how are you going to interpret something really wildly dramatic, when you don't know any better. And then the other idea I had was about a girl who tracks down a guy because she reads scribblings in the margins of a book, or marginalia. So I actually realized those two ideas were very similar, because when you're kind of losing your grasp on reality, maybe you're reaching out through very non traditional ways, like maybe you're writing in book margins, and trying to connect with strangers through atypical means. And there's something really romantic about that idea. So all of those things formed to my anti romantic comedy bread and butter. So I don't mean to be very long winded, but there are a lot of personal aspects to it. But then there's a lot of just like, very whimsical, fantasy based concepts in the film that are a big part of it.

Dave Bullis 16:34
Liz, please feel free to be as long winded as you want. I bring that out in people. I actually also had a filmmaker tell me one time that this was better than her therapy sessions. So I said, I said, I guess I went to the wrong calling. I should have just been a therapist for a living, but, but no, no, please feel free to, you know, I love to hear you know whole stories. You know, I think too when we go to tell, you know, stories and how things came to be, you know, oftentimes we give these little concise stories, you know, and it's kind of reminds what Carl Sagan always talked about, where he always worried about, like, news articles becoming just a blurb. And, you know, now it is reality, right? So everything is just a blurb, and you see all these fake headlines all over Facebook or whatnot, and so, so, so please feel free to be as long winded, but, but we get no That sounds really, really cool, because, you know, I think, you know, we've all been there where we've had that first relationship, and it's your first, you know, quote, unquote, real relationship, and you start, and, you know, sometimes things just don't go as planned. I mean that. I mean that's happened to me and and, you know, you kind of wonder where everything sort of went off the rails. And, you know, and that's why I also think too, with with more of, like indie films. I mean that as a positive, because you can take risks and you can do different things. And because if we were to do this, like a big budget, big budget, Highwood blockbuster, you know what I mean, like the beats would be set up completely different. And that's why I like seeing, you know, indie films you know, who you know, aren't afraid to go out and do something different or do something new, or, you know, not every inciting incident, or what have you, it has to be, you know, exactly the same. So when you were discussing, you know, how there was doodles in a book, something like that, that reminds me of movies like Little Miss Sunshine, you know, Juno, which you know, both were at Sundance, and in these movies ended up, you know, people always go, Hey, why can't we find more movies like that? Well, they're out there, but people, but most distributors, are looking for him, right?

Liz Manashil 18:40
Well, that's very true. I mean, you know, because I work in distribution at Sundance, I work at this department called the creative distribution initiative. And, you know, we'll talk about the fellowship later if you want to. But I'm running this fellowship which grants money for filmmakers who want to do self distribution. And so I'm watching a lot of films right now, and our big thing is that I'm really trying to be inclusive to micro budget filmmakers, because I think of micro budget filmmakers as my people. I'm a micro budget feature filmmaker. I understand the life of a micro budget feature filmmaker. There's very little boundaries, there's a lot of hustling, there's a lot of hard work. And people are doing it because they believe so strongly in their product that they work their ass off. And I agree, these movies are out there. They're quality, beautiful films made with love, spit and shoe polish, but distributors don't take a chance on them. And I could, I mean, honestly, I could talk for days on why distributors do not take a chance on these films, but ultimately, it's because marketing a film is really, really hard, and when you don't have, like, a gimmick or a franchise or a famous actor in your film, it's you have to take a second to think substantially on how to get to the audience, and distributors don't have that time because there's too much content out there. Sorry. It's like you asked a completely different question. I'm going on this rant. But what I'm trying to say is, like, I've seen these beautiful micro budget films, and I've fallen in love with these movies that, like, people are not watching because they don't even get a chance to watch because distributors aren't paying attention to them. It's really a shame.

Dave Bullis 20:38
No, no, I love hearing about distribution because I, you know, I actually had a filmmaker on here, and he made a film, and he actually said, he goes, I'm not gonna lie to you, Dave, he goes, I have no idea how to distribute this thing. And because, because, when he made a comedy, and he said it was the worst idea he ever made. And every time I always go, I always talk to distributors or producers on this podcast or even in person. The number one thing they say Liz is you have to make a horror film, because horror is a character onto its own and and usually, you know, have some kind of some, some kind of unique marketing plan. And they usually use paranormal activity before the paranormal activity. They used to use Blair Witch Project. So it's kind of, you know, you're trying to both of those movies, by the way, were micro budget films, and they went on to make, you know, millions upon millions of dollars. But you know, it's just, it's all about the execution of those movies. And so, when you're, so, would you recommend something similar? Since you're, you know, you see all these movies come through Sundance. And I'm sure people pitch you all the time like, hey, Liz, can I pick your brain? So because I imagine, I mean, as soon as you say you work at Sundance, they're probably like, Oh my god. So, so what are some of the things that you would recommend for filmmakers, for distribution?

Liz Manashil 21:56
Well, I'm kind of a different egg, so just know that my advice comes from a very specific place. I'm a micro budget feature writer director. I'm making my second film in April, and I have a day job, right? So I'm not I'm not making a lot of money, but when you're making films, you have to ask yourself, are you making it for art? Are you making it out of this intense desire to get a specific story out into the world. Are you making it because you want to make money? You know, there's always, always people say they want to make money, but what's the true reason and what's really at stake for you? So, you know, you asking, you know, what do distributors look for and what should a filmmaker do, ultimately, I have to say you have to make the film that you you know wake up in the morning, to make the one that pushes you forward, the one that you like live for. If that's not a horror film, then just understand that you need to think about who your audience is from day one and start building that audience, and start thinking about being super creative. This is what I do at work, is I consult with filmmakers about marketing and distribution. So I could really talk about this all day, but I don't like the idea of like suits telling filmmakers you have to make a horror film. That bothers me, because filmmakers, we have stories we already want to tell, and that's why we're artists, and that's why we're in this field. But I do agree that horror does very well, so I agree that they're giving smart advice about making money, but you shouldn't make a film just to make money. Film is art. It's important. You should tell the story from your point of view, and you should, you should make the art that you want to make

Dave Bullis 23:48
And see I think that's important because I like different viewpoints. Liz, i That's why I'm so glad I asked you, and I'm so glad you had different you had a different take on it, because, I mean, you know that is true. If they don't, they don't want to make horror films, I think, with the with the distribution, and how it sort of changed. I you know, I always say to people, if you make a movie, let's just say you make a movie and it doesn't turn out the way you want it to turn out. Or maybe you could. You can't really find the distribution that you want. I say, self. Distribute the thing you know, put it on your own website, make a big Buy Now button, and even if you decide you don't want to do it that way, I say put it on YouTube or something for free, just at least, to get it out there and try to find an audience or something that way. Because, you know, what's the alternative? Which is it's just going to sit on your hard drive. Hard Drive for years and years and years and you know, then no one's ever going to see it. Right,

Liz Manashil 24:47
Right! And, you know, the feature, the micro budget feature, they say, is kind of like the calling card that the short film used to be. So you want to be able to say that you've made the feature as long as you're, you know, you're saying, um. A distributor may have no interest, but that doesn't mean it's not good. As if you are not proud of the work, I wouldn't say put it out there for everyone to see, but as long as you're proud of it, definitely, I'm, you know, I'm a big champion for self distribution, but what I'm hoping it'll become is is not the last resort. I really want self distribution to be up there and thought of, as you know, one of the first options for filmmakers. Because what I'm noticing in my department at Sundance, and I get into this a lot, so I hope I'm not being redundant. But you know, filmmakers who work with distributors who aren't marketing their work are in a really bad place, because you can sign a distribution deal with a distributor, and maybe they're the only distributor that reached out to you, so maybe you feel like you have to go with them, and they take your film for sometimes as long as, like, 15 years, and they don't market it, and they don't give you reporting, and they don't tell you how much the money's, you know, the movie's made, and you don't get any checks from them. I mean, there's all these horror stories, and you can't really tell anyone anything, because you've signed this confidentiality clause. So you know, you could kind of hush hush, tell filmmakers not to work with that distributor, but you have no information about your audience. You have no information about who likes your work. You have no information about all these things that are really important for filmmakers to learn. But with self distribution, you're figuring out who your audience is. You're you're communicating with them directly. You are controlling all the marketing materials, so you get to make a poster and a trailer that reflects you as an artist, and you get all the money. And in a world where filmmakers are not making a lot of money and not having sustainable careers at Sundance, we're trying to figure out, well, let's try to you know, if a filmmaker is interested in self distribution, let's figure out ways that they could have self, you know, really sustainable careers and not spend too much money on distribution and marketing expenses.

Dave Bullis 27:12
Yeah, and I wanted to ask too, is when your film bread and butter? Yeah. How did you get that? How did you start to distribute that, you know, did you submit it to Sundance and any of the festivals?

Liz Manashil 27:24
Yeah, before I started working at Sundance, I, you know, was in post on bread and butter, and I submitted, everyone does this, right? Everyone submits the cut way too early to Sundance, because, most likely, they shoot the film in the summer. They speed through the edit. And by, I think Sundance's deadlines are in September, but you could get an extension for October. By, like September or October, you're not near to a fine cut of your film, but you want to submit to Sundance because it's Sundance. And Sundance, right now, is one of the only markets where there's real money to be high for film, and like a lot of attention goes to Sundance filmmakers. So we submitted way too early. I submitted a two and a half hour cut of my romantic comedy to Sundance. I hope that's obvious to everyone that that was a really bad decision, but it wasn't obvious to me because I just wanted to play at Sundance, so we did not get in. And ultimately, a distributor reached out to us, not because of the festivals we played. We played like 13 festivals, I think, and we got a few awards, and we had a great time, but it was because someone was looking at Lauren lapka says IMDb page, and saw that she was in a film called bread and butter, and then reached out to us for a link and and that someone was someone from the orchard who was our distributor. So when I talk about filmmaking, I talk about micro budget, I cannot over emphasize enough, the importance of having a name cast on board, because the only reason we got great distribution is because the amazing cast who decided to come on board our film.

Dave Bullis 29:14
So so. Liz, how did you get the cast, you know, on board? Bread and butter? Did you, you know, reach out to their agents? Or did you maybe, did you know people? Because I know cast is important. I go just to, you know, as we were just discussing with with, you know, actually, how horror is a character of its own. But, you know, again, going back to my friend about that comedy, he didn't have anybody, he had no known actors, and that was also against them. So, so, so, how did you go about getting the cast for bread and butter?

Liz Manashil 29:45
Well, we couldn't afford a casting director. I talked to casting directors, and they gave me their rates. And it was, I think it was the cost of, like, our entire crafty budget, or something like that. It was, it was not within our budget. Yeah. So I thought to myself, I used to cast projects in school. I would cast my own independent projects using, you know, in LA, we have something called La casting, and I think now casting is national and, you know, there's breakdown Express, there's different online casting resources, but I started to so I knew the casting world in a very surface level sense. You know, I wouldn't have called myself a casting director, but I had done it a few times on a few features and a few shorts that weren't, you know, directed by me. So knowing the importance of name cast, I just reached out directly to agents, and my lead producer was, is an entertainment lawyer. So if you draft up an official offer, you can get in the door. And what I would do is I'd get in the door through the offer letter, which you have to, you know, draft up this Deal Memo with an entertainment lawyer, and then I'd follow up with what I think is incredibly important, and I don't think enough filmmakers are doing this. I follow up with, like, a personal letter directly to the actor explaining why they're perfect for the role, while maintaining a sense of like personality and authenticity in the letter, like I'd write it for my voice, not being overly, you know, sales, womany or robotic. And just say I'm a big fan. Here are the things I love you from here's more about the character, here's why you're a perfect fit. Here are the dates, here's, you know, here's location, giving them every information. Because what I feel is like from an act perspective, there's just always these strangers reaching out with offers. And if it's a lot of money, then, you know, you make the financial decision, but if it's no money, you want to, I'm assuming you want to work with a nice artist who's going to treat you well and treat you like a person and be respectful to you, instead of treating you like a commodity. So I try to make friends with as many people as possible, if I can,

Dave Bullis 32:23
That is a really good strategy. Liz, I mean, no, seriously, if you walk into a room and you're a filmmaker, and you walk into a room and you're actually, you know, friendly and outgoing, and you're not, you know, you know. You're not trying to sort of make demands of people you first met, his first meet. You know, it actually you seem like, it makes you seem like so different people actually gravitate towards you then. Because, I mean, I think we've both have seen that where, you know, a filmmaker comes in the room and immediately they're like, Oh, how can I, you know, you know, what can you do for me today? Kind of attitude,

Liz Manashil 33:01
Yeah, and you know what you're doing, too, Dave, like, you're offering a service for film, like filmmakers. So it's like, what I'm trying to do is I put my email address on my website. I answer every single Facebook message I receive and every single email I receive. I mean, I always think it's really funny if anyone wants to talk to me because I don't. I'm like, I'm just Liz, I'm this, like, weirdo. But if they do want to talk to me and talk about filmmaking, I answer very as transparently as I can about how I made my first feature, because that's usually what people want to talk about. And I try to offer whatever valuable advice I can if I have anything, because what I think we should be all working on, if we can is, like, what can we offer others, rather than, what do we need? Right? So if you can build, actually a community and a network out of something you can offer, like, what you've done really well, Dave, it's like, then out of that network, you're also going to find new filmmaking partners, ads, DPS, you know, production designers, all of your crew may come out of that network, because you're already giving and taking at the same level. So I agree. You don't want to go into a room and ask for things, but also, it'd be great for people to go into rooms and offer things and say, This is the service that I offer. How can I help you?

Dave Bullis 34:24
Yeah, it's just also you out there, you make contacts, you network and and there's always the three things I always say, to be a good networker, or even to get your foot in the door. And you know that that is kill with kindness, offer value and be professional at all times. Yeah, I honestly. Liz, I have been to networking events where people have gotten dead stinking drunk and made complete idiots of themselves, and I'm like people who would hire you after that, like, honestly, I would be petrified to hire a person like that.

Liz Manashil 34:59
Well unfortunately that happens, you know, I mean, like, and because there's role models that have already established themselves in the industry who are wild cards and uncontrollable and kind of odd, idiosyncratic characters, and so it's not thought of that that's a bad thing in our industry, but it is, and I work in again, like I have a day job, so I work in a field of micro budget, where, if my project fails, I still have a very small income coming in. But that being said, reputation is everything. And you know, you want to work with nice people. So I have a policy on every project I ever do, and it's called the no asshole policy. And it sounds like you follow it too, Dave, but it's like, basically, meet everyone beforehand, and if they feel like they're a little salesman, and if they feel like they're a little self motivated and or if they don't seem like someone you want to hang out with, don't hire them. You know, like, contribute to a community where you're having fun on set with really sweet, enjoyable people, and then you'll want to make more films as well.

Dave Bullis 36:22
Yeah, the no asshole policy is a very good policy to have. Liz, it just takes one bad egg, right? One bad egg, and then that attitude spreads like a virus.

Liz Manashil 36:33
Yeah, I agree. What else? What else?

Dave Bullis 36:38
Yeah, so, so, so you went with the orchard, you know, for bread and butter. You're working on your second feature now, which is speed of life, you know, and you're shooting that next April. I mean, is there anything that you could sort of go into details about it?

Liz Manashil 36:57
Well, I just think, I guess, what is I can I can tell you the blog line, and I can say a little bit about it. I'm trying to be very transparent about making the second feature, because, again, I don't think information, enough information, is out there for filmmakers on how to actually make the thing, do the thing right? I Before making bread and butter, I was like, how do you get money? Like, how does that happen? I had all these I went to USA film school, so I had a lot of networks with a lot of resources. But I didn't know how they just started to get money for their work. It was very mysterious to me. So I'm talking freely about this film, as much as I can say. And I think what's interesting is, after making bread and butter, I got like, a certain level of amnesia, forgetting how hard it was to make an indie feature. And I was like, fuck it. Let's do it again. This is great. And now that I'm in pre production, now all these really painful all these pain points are coming back to me, and it's now I realize why it's so hard to make content and why it takes years to put movies together. So that being said, my movie is called speed of life. It's a science fiction, romantic dramedy, I guess, if that's a thing, and it is about a woman, a man and a woman who are in a couple, girlfriend and a boyfriend in their 30s, are fighting in their apartment one night, and in the midst of the argument, the guy, Edward, falls through a wormhole and disappears for 24 years. And so the film is about, you know, what happens when he re emerges, and he's still in his 30s, but she's in her 60s, and so it's kind of this very interesting, you know, age difference romance, but there's time travel. They go back to 2016 they'll go back to 2040 and David Bowie's involved, because when I was writing it David Bowie died, and I'm a massive David Bowie fan, and so that's why the film's called speed of life, after David Bowie song, and the wormhole was created because David Bowie's death created a rift in time and space. Because that's kind of how I felt when he died.

Dave Bullis 39:19
And, you know? But I wanted to, I wanted to ask to sorry, I was got some feedback on myself there for a second. That's why I just stopped. I'm gonna cut that out, by the way. So I wanted to ask too, is when you're writing something like this, did you have the budget in mind at all? I mean, were you being, were you saying yourself, like, Oh, I could never get this location and changing it, you know while you were writing it.

Liz Manashil 39:43
No, I know how to write cheaply because of bread and butter. So I know what costs money. I know that pages cost money. I know characters cost money and locations cost money, just like you were saying. So I went into this knowing yes. Like, knowing Yes, I guess there was some sort of creative infringement, where or censorship where. I was like, this is going to be a one to three location film, because I know locations cost money, but ultimately I wrote the story. It was originally going to be a horror film, but I didn't have any fun writing a horror film, so I decided to make it science fiction. And after I wrote the story, I then went back and started to think, what's expensive? What? What can I cut out? What can I transform to be cheaper? And then ultimately, I met with a producer, I brought on board, and we just broke down, what's the least amount we can make this movie for? And we are. We somehow have that amount of money in hand right now, which is kind of crazy to me, and it worked out through a combination of a Kickstarter campaign, money for my first film, all the money I've saved up in the past few years, and then what is going to be two small investors that I met at film festivals, actually. So I think once you I don't want to say that making a movie is a magical experience and things just come to you, but once you set and you write the script and you're really set to do it, for some reason, opportunities just did start to present themselves to a to a degree. So I know what it's like to be emerging filmmaker, and think that it's really hard to get money and it's impossible, and no one cares, and no one wants to invest in your projects. But if you say, I'm going to make this film, I'm making it on this date, you know, here's the script, here's the breakdown, here are my crew members who are attached. People start to pay a little bit more attention to you, and they take you seriously, and they start seeing you as a, as a, an investment,

Dave Bullis 42:05
You know, I really like that Liz, because I think once you fully commit, and you sort of, you sort of, can push yourself, you know, to say, Hey, listen, this is the shoot date, or this is what I'm going to do next. It does. It does force you to constantly, you know, get out there and meet people, or constantly, you know, you're trying to solve problems, and it gives you a little more emphasis and a little more push to solve those problems. And that's when you go out there and you meet people and they can see, okay, you know, you know, you know, how much you know, would would they, you know, be able to donate? I had a friend of mine, Liz, who got five grand out of nowhere to make a, to make a very short film, because he was at a at the right right place, the right time, and just started talking to the person. The person was like, hey, you know, you know, I could give you five grand. And they donated five grand to the Kickstarter.

Liz Manashil 42:55
I mean, that's amazing. And I had similar stories where, when we were doing the bread and butter Kickstarter, because I kick started my first feature to an investor who is now a good friend of mine. Very sweet guy. He he held a garage sale for us. And this is a guy I've never met, but he saw how important making the film was to me, and he was he decided to just be like the nicest person in the universe and hold a garage sale for us and donate all proceeds to our Kickstarter campaign. So I'm a little bit of a cynical misanthrope sometimes, but there are really nice people out there who do want to patronize artists who are fully committed to their work. You just have to be loud about what you're doing. It's funny because we're kind of giving conflicting advice, Dave, like, we're like, you know, go into networking and be unassuming and be, you know, offer things of value, but then at the same time, you want to tell people what you're doing, so that you get the word out about ways to support you as a filmmaker. So I think there must be a way to do it in a respectful, classy way. Sometimes it's just social media, and sometimes it's like, you meet people in person, you have an actual conversation with them, you forget about all of the networking bullshit, and then maybe you post about the fact that you're making a film on social media later that day, and you friended them, and maybe they know someone who wants to invest in movies. So it sometimes happens like that as well.

Dave Bullis 44:30
You know, Liz, people who listen to this podcast know I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about. So trust me, they're so used to getting contradictory information for me, but no All kidding aside, it's you're absolutely right. And you know, when you when you go out there, you have to start speaking up for yourself and making you know those own opportunities. And if you're at a networking event, you know, usually, I always also another tip, I always say, is you have to go with a certain person in mind to meet with a certain person. Things going to be there, like a specific, actual person, or you're just saying, hey, look, I'm going to go here and try to find a producer of some kind, you know. And now you know. And like you were mentioning before, you know, how the hell do you get a movie made? How the hell do you get money for it? What I found is, there's a whole network that exists, and, and, and there's one I've created for myself too, of just people who, you know, have money and they're like, but you have to present them things in a very certain way, you know, and so that, that's, you know, how you know, it sort of goes, I think, with with the way things are now, you know, as long as we're not like, inundating people with, you know, hey, I'm working on something, or, Hey, this or that, I think people are more willing to hear, you know, to listen. You know, we mentioned crowdfunding, and I think that's also a point in time where some people get a little burned out of projects. Because, you know, if you go into Facebook and Twitter or what have you, or even if you're sending out emails and they're hearing about your project constantly, they're like, oh my god, When is this gonna, when is this going to be over?

Liz Manashil 46:03
Right! Great. Well, I I consult on crowdfunding, actually, as part of my job at Sundance, and what I advocate is you email market your Kickstarter or your Indiegogo campaign once a week. So emails, actually, what we found is like the most powerful way to build networks, because it's, it's semi permanent. You know, social media moves so fast, but at least with email, you could track engagement. You could see who opens your email. You could see who clicks on links. You know, there's a way to kind of analyze an email, but social media moves so fast, so my big thing is, post as much as you want on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, inundate, irritate people, remind them that you exist, because you need to remind someone like 15 times before they actually donate. But email, that's more impactful. So you do that once a week, and you do it only four times throughout your campaign, and that's the way not to alienate people too much. I think,

Dave Bullis 47:04
Yeah, it's you want to make people feel part of something, but also not make them, you know, not just beat them over the head with it and just like, Yeah, you know, by the way, I need money. Speaking of needing money. Liz, I want to ask too about the the actual distribution, mentorship. Oh yeah. I want to explain this, you know, the the initiative, the creative distribution initiative. And I know we wanted to talk about this too, you know? I wanted to ask Liz, how did you become the manager of the Sundance creative distribution Institute? And I wanted to ask too, you know, about actually applying to this? Not myself. I don't have anything to submit, but filmmakers who do, I think would be interested in it,

Liz Manashil 47:45
Sure. So I'm the manager of the creative distribution initiative at Sundance. We used to be called artist services, and basically we were this department at Sundance that was very inward facing, and it was about alumni support. And what we're doing now is we're kind of pointing a lot of that support to the community, to the network, and opening the doors up a tiny little bit, which is really something that I'm keenly interested in doing. I speak very freely about this. As a filmmaker, I've applied to Sundance programs, and I've never gotten any traction. I know it's really hard to get within our network. So this is an attempt to make it a little bit more transparent about how to get into the Sundance family. And also we're offering more public services for filmmakers, whether or not you get into the fellowship or not. So I can break down how punk rock cool this fellowship is, because I truly believe in it. And also I wanted to mention that we only have 40 applications in for this fellowship. And that's really like absurd to me, because I know there are filmmakers out there who need money, and I know there are filmmakers out there like I applied for every single grant and fellowship I could. So it's confusing to me why this has not caught on yet and maybe, like, maybe you can tell me, Dave, like, maybe you can. I'd love to hear your opinion, but I think this is a really amazing opportunity.

Dave Bullis 49:18
Yeah, oh, I agree it is, and I don't, if there's only 40 applications, there's my the first thing would come to my mind why people wouldn't, wouldn't submit is they think they don't have a chance. Maybe that's the only, that's the only real reason I could think of, because, I mean, if I had an opportunity, I would take that, take it anyway. I'm actually, I'm more of concentrating on, like, submitting to, like, screenwriting competitions now, but like, even something like this, like, if, because, like, I honestly, Liz, I haven't made anything, like, a couple years, but actually, just, I'm sorry I'm getting way off topic. I'm gonna, I'm gonna just stop myself. I'm trying to get way off topic now. But. That that would be the only reason I could see is that some filmmakers just think they don't have a chance.

Liz Manashil 50:15
I've heard that before, right? Because I've kind of been really loud about how surprised I am that this has not caught fire, you know, just on Facebook or with friends and other people said the exact same thing you did. And I think that's super interesting, just to quell anyone's worries or to, like, clarify for anyone, I'm managing the fellowship. It's a three person department. In my department, I'm the only one who sees all the applications come in, and I'm a person who's, like, really excited to always talk about micro budget filmmaking and to try to empower other filmmakers to make content. If I can like I don't want to be presumptuous. I don't think I have any sort of expertise or power, but if I can talk with a filmmaker and try to help them out. I want to do that because I believe in what we do, and I'm really proud to be a filmmaker. So just know, like, if you apply to this, I will look at your application, I'll make sure our department looks at your application, and I'll make sure you get a fair shot. I can't guarantee that you'll get the fellowship, and maybe I should talk about what the fellowship is, but I don't want people to think that this is like, you're just throwing your name in a hat, and it's like, you know, never going to be looked at and never going to be really considered. We're really considered, considering every single application here, especially with only 40 applicants. So we run a fellowship called the creative distribution fellowship we launched last year with we picked Columbus and unrest. I don't know. Have you heard of those movies?

Dave Bullis 51:53
Yeah, I've heard of unrest.

Liz Manashil 51:55
Okay, so unrest is this amazing documentary about Jen Brea, who has chronic fatigue syndrome and Columbus is a fiction feature directed by a man named coconada, starring John Cho and Haley, Haley Richardson and Parker Posey. So both these films decided not to do what we call all rights deals. So they decided to keep ownership of their films and work with us. And so what we do with our fellowship films is we give them grant money. So we're giving each film this year, and we're only picking four, but we're giving each phone $25,000 each for digital marketing. So we want that money to be used to help filmmakers figure out who their audience is and how to build their audiences, and to do Facebook ads and Instagram ads and Twitter ads and social media and, you know, to create different trailers to test kind of like how a 24 marketed moonlight. We're very interested in that. In addition to that grant, we have a minimum mid five figure subscription VOD deal. So all four of these films that we pick are guaranteed to be on either Netflix, Amazon or or Hulu. And you get to choose all these all these platforms are they have this floor offer that's mid five figure. And if one of these platforms really likes your film and wants to guarantee its placement, like, let's say Netflix really likes your film and they really want it on their platform, they may offer a six figure deal. So it's just a floor offer, but it's already at the mid five figure range. That's amazing. And then we have, so that's subscription VOD, which is like the only way filmmakers are making money right now. And then we have a partnership with something called a digital aggregator, so you get discounted rates to get on iTunes, Amazon, Google Play, Voodoo, Xbox. And the thing that's really remarkable about this fellowship, as I wind down my pitch a little bit, is all the money goes to the filmmaker. Sundance. Is not a distributor. We don't take a distribution fee. So when you work with a distributor, they take anywhere from 20 to 35% or whatever it is, and we don't do that. We're a nonprofit. We're about filmmaker sustainability. The only thing we ask for in return is information we want to work with you to figure out how to build your audience, how to make the most amount of money, and what we learned together is going to be published for the world to see in case studies that my teammate just puts together. And it's because this information isn't out there. So it's by participating in our fellowship, you get a chance at a sustainable career in filmmaking, and you're. Benefiting the field by sharing what you've learned with other filmmakers. Sorry, that is so much talking.

Dave Bullis 55:07
No. Liz, you're all good, like I said, you know, it's all good here. It's actually encouraged, but, but you know that it's all that is, you know, just great information. And I think too, that sometimes when, when I mean, as I was saying to you in the pre interview, there's the American dream, and there's what I call the Sundance dream. You know, I think every filmmaker has a dream of getting into Sundance, and usually it's a little overzealous, because they're more focused on the output than the input. Because usually, you know, I mean, you've been, I'm sure you've seen sets like that, or you have friends like that too, where they're like, All right, we're going to make this film. We're gonna get into Sundance, and it's just gonna, you know, be a home run shot, and we're all gonna, you know, buy mansions in LA, but we're gonna walk away rich, exactly, yeah, and it doesn't really, it does, you know, there is still Sundance deals, obviously, you know that everything like that, but it's just because, you know, now all of a sudden, you're, going against all the other, you know, top films that are, they've submitted that year. It's a little so it's become like, you know, everyone who has, you know, the best films that rise to the top very, very quickly. And that's why I think something like this is going back to what I was saying about how people didn't want to submit, or maybe they didn't feel they would ever make it. I think that you know, this would be something for them. You know, Hey, you didn't make it into Sundance, or, Hey, maybe you know you didn't win Sundance or, or what have you. But this is something that could definitely help, especially when you're self distributing, especially in today's marketplace, because again, going back to just all the different people I've had on the podcast, I've had on the podcast. I've had a lot of people self distribute their movies, and, yeah, and it's, it's, it's, you know, some of them have just put it right on places like Vimeo or someplace you know, or just going to an aggregator and trying to get with that, that route, or even just putting up on it by now button on the website, you know, just trying to get it out there and that, that's the new war, right? It's the new war of eyeballs and ears.

Liz Manashil 57:03
I love that. I've never heard that term before. That's really cool the New World. Anyway, I'm going to use that so that's I completely agree that's true, and what's kind of cool about our fellowship. Again, I see myself who works at Sundance, but I see myself as an outsider, because I don't have an agent. I've never a sales trip. Is never to rep me or my film. I, you know, I feel like, kind of like, like the, you know, the flower or the ugly duckling at the ball or something. But if you get our fellowship, you become an alumni, which is, is kind of the best part of playing Sundance. You know, obviously you play Sundance, there's so many amazing benefits, but if you don't play Sundance, being an alumni means you get the support of the Institute and everything you do, really. And we're here to brainstorm with you. We're here to chat with you all our fellows get mentorship with various people in the industry on how to best release their film. It's not really self distribution with us. It's you use the money you build a team. We're there to mentor and help and assist and be a part of it all. And yeah, you make all the decisions, but but you're supported throughout the entire experience. So for me, like, whether, you know, we're considering films that are getting into Sundance and films that are not getting into Sundance, the important thing for us is, I don't want to work with a team, the team that you you described a few minutes ago. I don't want to work with a team that's like, we'll just get bought for a million dollars. And I don't know why I'm trying to use those boss snacks, and all of a sudden, you know, and then walk away and buy a mansion. I want to work with a team that's like, Hey, I love my film. I want to be a part of its release. I worked hard on making it. I'm going to work hard on getting out to an audience, and I have, you know, the support of an entire massive nonprofit to help me. So that's what we're looking for, is like the team is really important, which may not always be a Sundance, you know, Film Festival filmmaker.

Dave Bullis 59:15
I did enjoy that Boston accent, by the way, but, but, you know, and that's the thing, too, you know. And that's the thing, too. You want to work with a team that you can actually get along with. And I actually, I just was talking to some people about this as well, you know, about how to actually build a team. So if you're, you know, in you've, you're the filmmaker, You're the writer, director, producer, how do you build a team, you know? And, I mean, I didn't go to film school, so I'm not sure. You know, obviously different film schools have different ways. They teach that some of them, you have this, you know, obviously they go over all the crew positions, but they don't really get into, like, the nitty gritty of, you know, hey, look, you know, you might have somebody with a bad attitude. I mean, you know what? I mean, like, they don't get into that sort of, like, the synergetic effect, if you will, of a team, or maybe they don't get into the whole like, you know, if you fire this person, there's a domino effect. If you do, you know what I mean, stuff like that. It's just really the politics, yeah, yeah, the politics. Or, or, you know, hey, hey, we hired a guy just because he had a RED camera. If we fire him, there goes the red. What do you do? What do you do? And by the way, the answer to that is, fire him. I've learned, I've learned that the hard way, but, um, but, but, you know, and it's just, that's why, you know, I wanted to have you on to list. It's just to talk about some stuff like this. Because, again, you know, there's a lot of filmmakers out there who sort of make films, and it's kind of like, okay, now that you've made it, how do you get people to watch it? And I think that's where stuff like this comes in and and also, obviously they go around to different festivals and stuff like that. Or whether it be a local festival, whether it be Sundance, you know, again, like we were just saying it's the war of eyeballs and ears. Now,

Liz Manashil 1:01:02
Yeah, I'm a firm believer in the do it yourself ethos. So I know my my paradigm or my philosophy is not for everyone, and I get a little judgy about it, so I don't mean to do that, but this isn't taught in film school. You know, distribution, marketing is not I went to USC, which claims to be the number one film school in the world, and I had a great time. But we not, we didn't once talk about distribution and marketing. So this information, for the most part, is not out there. We have some amazing resources, like podcasters, like yourself, like bloggers who are trying to get the word out, but we're trying to amplify that a little bit with Sundance's influence so that filmmakers can actually learn. So even if you're not interested in the fellowship, I'm encouraging people just to email me, and I'm at [email protected] and I'll put you on our email list. And we write articles every two weeks about hacks, hacks you could do in marketing, hacks you could do in distribution, how to build an audience, what theatrical distribution is all about, whether people are making money, all of these things, information that I don't think is is out there. Enough. So again, if you're not like this very specific filmmaker that we're looking for, which is entrepreneurial filmmaker who really wants their hands on on the film from beginning to end, you could still learn from the resources we have. And we're trying to, we're trying to get out of the Sundance bubble, which is why I'm like, reaching out to really cool podcasts and trying to get on them, because I think too very often people see Sundance as these gates. And we're trying to say no. Like, we want the gates to be open. We want to be helpful. Let us try to be helpful. Email us, contact us, get on our email list and like let's all learn from the filmmakers who are going to go through this fellowship so that we can learn about filmmaker sustainability, so that we all don't die destitute on the streets doing what we love. That's a great way to end this isn't that great. I'll stop talking.

Dave Bullis 1:03:28
Well, Liz it's great talking to you, but no, and you know that that's a great way to put it too. Is, you know, not to go broke while making your film. I know it's sometimes it's hard to do, but you want to make sure you're not, you know, while you're following your dream. You want to make sure that you're not sort of burning all your bridges behind you, or or actually making sure yourself destitute on the street. Because just to follow the dream, you want to, you want to have a, you know, a you want to make it sort of pays off. So you're not, you know, if the dream doesn't work out, you're not, obviously, you know, living out of your car. But, but, but, but. Liz, it has been great talking to you. It has been great having you on. You know, just in closing, is there any sort of anything you want to say to sort of put a period at the end of this whole sentence?

Liz Manashil 1:04:12
I think I've said it a lot, but I get to talk every now and then on panels and stuff like that. And I get business cards, and people say things like, Yeah, I'm going to email you. And they never do. They really don't. And what I'm saying is like, we, we're like, here begging to be a resource for filmmakers. Tell us what you need. Tell us what you want to learn about. Let us use the Sundance name and brand and the the resources we have, and let us, let us write pieces and communicate with you guys about what, what we all need to learn. So just email us at [email protected], and we'll all trying to figure out a way to help each other. So if that's not too like hippy dippy, that's what, then that's the message I want to put forth.

Dave Bullis 1:04:57
No, I think that's great. Honestly. I think that's great. And, you know, I think we need, we need more of that. You know what I mean. It's sort of the more of the the network, if you will, that sort of, you know, you that that can help you out, and you help them out, you know what I mean. So I think, honestly, it's better than a lot of other alumni associations, like, you know, I always go back to college, you know, you always hear your your member of the college alumni. My college alumni has never helped me one iota. I know, I know I'm so upset about that they asked me for tons of favors. They honestly, they're always asking for favors, and then, of course, they're always asking for donations. But I'm always like, come on, I go, what the hell's going on here? Like, I can't get a damn thing from you guys. And it just, you know that it just, you don't want to help out after that, you know, you just kind of wonder. That's a whole nother topic. Liz,

Liz Manashil 1:05:51
I mean, I this is stupid to mention, but I'm gonna mention it anyway. I got, like, a request for a donation from USC film school, and I did an Instagram of this, and I wrote on the, you know, donation request slip. I wrote, you get me representation. You get a donation. It's like, we pay tuition for these schools, and what's the support we get once we graduate? They keep asking me for Sundance things, and I'm like, Well, that sounds fun. Let's, let's collaborate. But as a filmmaker, what can we do? You know, how can you help your filmmaker? Alumni, Sundance is a nonprofit, so we're all about like, all we do is support filmmakers, and we don't, you know, you're not paying tuition to get these resources. These are free resources that we're trying to provide. But like, I wish schools where which are, like, getting our hard earned money would be, would be a little bit more supportive as well.

Dave Bullis 1:06:47
Yeah, it's unbelievable. I'm telling you, it's, you know, I actually think higher education is the next bubble to burst. I think you're going to see a lot of, like, the Not, not USC, but the college that I went to. I think that would close. Well, it's actually close to closing anyway, but it would start to unravel all the smaller schools that never should have existed in the first place. Maybe not all of them, but a lot of these, where they are so dependent upon every single semester, it's always about student enrollment, because that's all the bread and butter as your student enrollment and all those colleges that that that have it like that, the smaller colleges, they're going to be gone. I think you're good. I think in one calendar year, if, like, if between, like, 20 to 50 of them closed, which would be astronomical, I think you would start to see this education bubble start to burst. And a lot of these other colleges that charge astronomical amounts of money are really going to have to either realize that they're not actually teaching education anymore and they're just more at about, like, they're more about hedge fund management. And the other flip side of that is like, like, community colleges are really going to be able to get more if they can concentrate on the students more and less upon, not even faculty. But they're because they don't focus on them anyway. They focus on they focus on the administration. It's like, if you're a dean or a vice president or even, or obviously the President, you've got it made, because the school, like, exists for you, but if you but yeah, and I'm sorry, this is my whole. I used to work in higher ed, by the way, so, like, interesting. Yeah. This is my whole like, my whole like, rabble about this whole thing. I love it. I mean, it just, it's unbelievable, some of the stuff that I used to see. I So here's, I'm sorry. Liz, I'm talking your off. I Sorry. It's great. It's really interesting to me. I'll tell you some stories sometimes about, you know, everything I used to do in higher ed and all the BS I used to see all the time. It was unbelievable. But Liz, where can people find you out? Online? Sorry, I better change direction really quickly. So I'm gonna start talking. I wanna keep talking.

Liz Manashil 1:08:53
Okay, well, I'm on Twitter at Liz Manashil, you could just email me directly [email protected], if anything's like distribution related, I'd prefer you email [email protected] so that my teammate, Jess and I can both read your email and tackle whatever problems you guys are dealing with as filmmakers, and then my website's lizmanashill.com where I guess I know that's a lot of handles, but I'm really trying to build an audience for speed of life. So if you find us on Facebook, speed of life, if you find us on Twitter, speed of life, movie that would be so valuable to me, and I'd be happy to talk about your film. And let's, let's spitball about distribution, marketing,

Dave Bullis 1:09:41
And I'm going to link to all that in the show notes. Everybody. Liz, I want to say thank you so much for coming on, and it has been an absolute blast. Liz, again, thanks a lot for coming on, and let's talk again soon.

Liz Manashil 1:09:54
Cool! I'm in!

Dave Bullis 1:09:57
Thanks so much Liz, take care.

Liz Manashil 1:09:58
Thank you Dave.