IFH 234: Directing Hollywood Blockbusters with Legendary Director John Badham

Welcome to the indie film podcast episode number 234 love all trust a few do wrong To None William Shakespeare broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It’s the indie film hustle podcast where we show you how to survive and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film Biz and here’s your host Alex Ferrari.

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50% off one day of eight or ten percent off your complete post sound package. Just go to Studio unknown. Well today guys you are in for a treat I have on the show today legendary film director John. Badham. John has made decade defining features like Saturday Night Fever and 80s Blockbusters, like WarGames short circuit and Stakeout and not to mention 90s hits like.

A wire with Mel Gibson the hard way and point of no return just to name a few John is also the author of two amazing books on directing called. John badham on directing and I’ll be in my trailer the creative Wars between directors and actors and he’s also a tenured film professor at Chapman University here in Los Angeles.

John is a wealth of knowledge and experience when it comes to directing and he’s been doing it for close to 50 years. I know that sounds like a lot John. I’m sorry, but it’s almost five Decades of directing and working with actors and telling stories. And working at the highest levels of Hollywood and I I was just such a thrill to sit down and pick John’s brain in this episode.

So if you guys are interested in directing this episode is just Plum full of knowledge bombs about directing about storytelling about working with actors all sorts of amazing tips. I learned a lot and I really want to thank John again to take take time out of his busy schedule to jump on this episode and talk to the tribe.

So without any further. Do please enjoy my conversation with John? I like to welcome to the show the legendary John. Badham. How you doing, sir? Thank you so much for doing the show. Oh, this is great fun to be here. I’m glad to talk to you you are. Uh, you basically were my my youth I grew up in the 80s and the 90s watching your movies.

Uh, and it is an absolute thrill to have you on the show. Well, thank you. I’m having fun being here. All right. So, um, so first of all, how did you get started in the film business? Um, I actually was a theater major at at Yale and I was in the Yale drama school also so, uh, I got interested in film and and sort of thoughtfully that I could just show up and.

California and start to get involved in it. You know, I mean, I had a master’s degree in directing. It was in theater people would say well what would you like to do? So I want to direct. Oh great. What have you directed? Well plays out of here. So what are that? No matter no matter what decades you are.

You were born in there’s always naivete, right? And and so I you know, I hung in there kept looking for a job and finally, uh, the landed something in the mail room, but Universal and and. You know by then I thought this is a big deal actually got a job delivering mail on the lot. Of course. I was used to be on the lot.

Absolutely and I walk in the Mailroom and there’s. 12 guys there four of them with master’s degrees including me eight with bachelor’s degrees and hot California summer sun where I think mail up and down the hill. Uh, so but the but the idea was that you would kind of find your way out of there you’d find a department.

On the lot that uh wanted to train some people and it was a busy busy time at Universal where they had 24 hours of Television plus all of their movies the lot was just rocking right and opportunities were, you know, popping up right and left I eventually found a home in the casting office as a. Uh trainee casting director and there’s that’s where I started to work with the with real directors and real producers and and who you know, listen to me when I started talkin about wanting to direct so um, and you got into television first, right?

So I got into television first because I was working with it with a great television producer. Uh, William sackheim who uh, led me start directing, uh, small things like literally inserts close-up on the cigar in the ashtray, you know close up on the telephone being dialed, uh, but to go from there into actually having real people in the shot and then whole scenes and and finally when we started.

A series called The Senator with Hal Holbrook. Um, he and and and as other producer David Levinson said, yes, you can direct uh number 7 of this series, which was just great. I mean, we know what an opportunity well how many how many years were you hustling to get to that opportunity? So that I think that’s about six years.

I think five or six years, uh before I got got to that place. Um, and I thought oh my God, it’s so late. Oh, I’m just gonna be ancient. Um, but um, you know, I thank goodness. It worked out. All right, and then, uh that got me another another. Uh film which which actually won me an Emmy nomination another episode of the same show.

Um, and and that that little stamp of approval that any nomination that kept me busy for years and years. Yeah, you were doing a lot of uh, what they used to call tell TV movies or movies of the week. I segwayed into TV movies, which were. All over the place there had to be other half a dozen every week.

Oh, they’re everywhere loosing them. And so they were like little movies and be shot in say 15 days. That was like great 15 days because uh, By comparison the our shows were being shot in six days, right? Uh, and these were only like 30 minutes longer. So you had it was you were you were being spoiled?

Oh my God, this is great and you got to do, you know more interesting stuff and some some action things and um and people, you know may might take you seriously when you start looking for a movie. As opposed to having just done our television nice. No. So how did you get involved with Saturday Night Fever I had gotten to do a movie, uh with Richard Pryor and James Earl Jones.

And Billy Dee Williams about the history of negro baseball with the unlikely and unwieldy title of the Bingo Long traveling All-Stars & Motor Kings. Okay, but it was a comedy and uh and was great fun that we shot, uh in ball parks All Over Georgia and um, and it had a lot of music and. And and dancing in it.

It was a co-production with Motown and Universal. Um, and um that actually led to um led to me and ginning up with with Motown to buy the rights to the Broadway musical The Wiz, okay. For Universal and and for Motown and uh, and so I was working on that with my with my partner Rob Cohen, um, when when Universal and Motown decided that for uh, little little 12 year old Dorothy, we should have the noted twelve-year-old Diana Ross, right?

Play the part and I said guys. I mean, this is a great opportunity. She’s a fabulous actress singer dancer. I mean what name it but she’s you know, whatever age he is. I don’t know, you know late 20s early 30s, uh, probably late 20s, and and and and Dorothy, you know is in literally in the L. Frank Baum books is 6 years old.

All right. Which explains why there’s cowardly lions and Tin Men and straw, you know scarecrows all kind of the imagination of a child. Uh, so wouldn’t it be nice if we could find somebody that was really young that could play this? Uh, and if I’m sure nobody’s ever gonna have heard of it because we’re gonna discover.

Well that got into a big thing and finally, Uh, finally we parted ways right on that I said, well you guys understand this because I don’t know what to say to her. How do you how do you direct the Dorothy who’s 30? This scares the bejesus out of me. I mean, you’ve got a vision that doesn’t match.

Well, uh, it’s happened that the Robert stigwood organization. We’re producing grease and um and another musical with the Bee Gees that was going to be called Sergeant Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band. I’ve heard of the album and and you’ve heard of the album and um, And and they flew me to New York and and and wanted me to talk with them about doing Sergeant Pepper, which I there was no greater fan of that album than me, right, uh, but the but the script that they want to do.

I I just didn’t get it right. I was like what it just didn’t quite didn’t quite gel in my mind. And and I as politely as I could, you know refused, you know and said thank you very much. But I I just I don’t get it right and but two weeks later, uh, the the then director of what was called tribal rights of the new Saturday night doesn’t have the same ring to it.

Does it right? But if we look at the New York Magazine article that it was based on that was the title and nobody had come up with anything better except for calling it Saturday night. And and that was immediately confused with the Saturday Night Live, right? So they said well, we’ll just put a pin in it, uh deal with this later.

So, um anyway the director of that film. Had a uh had a disagreement with Robert stigwood who is not a human being to ever disagree with because he was a tough old Australian. He wasn’t that old either. Uh, but to me at the time I think oh my God, this guy’s old. Uh, he might be 40 years old. Um, I wish I were for him.

So, uh suddenly I’m like the next guy to be called on the list and and I I read the script, uh, and I had 102 fever with from the flu in La at the time and in the one hour that it took me to read the script. I was cured. Jesus came and laid his hand on me and said you’re cured your fever is gone your fever is gone because you’ve read this great script and it broke your sphere.

That’s great. I’ll tell you it was it was fabulous. And that was a Monday Morning by uh by Thursday morning. I was standing in New York, uh, starting to interview actors and talk to my new crew. And and told that I had uh two weeks before we start shooting this is probably where having done all those TV movies of the week and everything it off because uh, unlike any normal human being I didn’t fall down in panic and have a heart attack.

Right did you were used to it? Yeah, I go. Okay two weeks. What’s the catch? Uh, so now as far as the casting of Travolta of John Travolta was he he was just the guy on a Welcome Back Kotter at that time. He had done Greece yet, right? That’s right. And he he had been uh already signed to do Greece.

Um, because from the Welcome Back Kotter and from uh, a TV movie called The Boy in the Plastic Bubble God, I remember that movie to you. And if I remember properly I think he was in the Broadway company of Greece. Um, so so he had he had that experience. So the stigwood organization signed John 2:3 a three-picture deal and Greece was to be you know, the big the big one one to be found and.

And then somebody came up with this New York Magazine article and said how about this that we could do this while we’re waiting to start grease because they had to wait for Olivia Newton-John right at a very tough concert schedule at the time and she said well I’ve got available from May to September or something like that.

So they said okay between January. And may when we get Olivia Newton-John this is where we’ll plug in this little movie called called tribal rights of the new Saturday night. It was very much almost like an indie movie. I know that you did have a budget but the way it was shot. I remember it vividly was very kind of in the streets and kind of gritty and it was not a polished Hollywood movie by any stretch.

No, and it was part of the point was to make it as gritty as we could. Uh, I mean never having been in Brooklyn in my life. Uh, I I said, well what if I were an English documentarian coming here, right? I would just, you know, open my eyes and shoot everything that looks good. And and and one of the appeals of the magazine article was the kind of gritty realism.

Of of this disco and the people that that um that were in it during the time I was prepping the very brief time every every night. I would go to some different disco in the middle of the night. There were Yuppie discos, there were gay discos there were lesbian discos, you know, any any kind of preference.

Uh, you could think of there was a disco for it. And and I quickly realized that that this little uh, kind of hole in the wall disco in Brooklyn was very special. It was just you know, kind of lower middle-class kids were coming there. And uh, you didn’t really see any adults, right and it was just the neighborhood.

It was the neighborhood disco and I remember I remember those guys because I grew up in New York and I remember that time and I remember, you know cousins of mine, you know that that could interrupt to sense together, but when they got their clothes for, you know, Saturday that you know, they they they were peacocking all over the place.

Oh, yeah, and and and so so it was clear that that we didn’t want to go and glitch this up right that it was not the kind of uh musical that’s that’s a grease was certainly going to be which was much on a different much more fun romantic kind of scale sure. And um and that this should have a real grittiness to it and the script itself.

You know had more uh, profane language and racism and sexism and you know, really reflected the culture of those neighborhoods, um, which which I would have proven to me every day because I would be talkin to people on the street and Extras and learn, you know learning about the culture as we were going.

Finding out that if anything are our depiction of it was a bit mild. Wow. Now how was it, you know, obviously when you guys were directing it. Um, yeah, I was I remember we were talking off air about your assistant director Alan wertheim who was a good friend of mine. He told me a story that I think he was you or someone handed him the soundtrack.

To the movie and he took it home and he listened to it and he’s like this is never going to go anywhere and his wife was the one who told him you’re an idiot and then obviously it became this phenomenon. How what was it like being in the center of that storm? I mean because you had directed literally a phenomenon.

I mean you couldn’t go anywhere in the world without hearing that music and seeing those images that you shot. Uh, yes, I mean the the reaction to to the soundtrack, uh ballons experience wasn’t you know wasn’t unusual. Um, they gave me a you know, a little tape cassette with the Bee Gees demos on it, which is probably what I gave Talan right and and they were there were rough demos.

Um, and I think Paramount had listened to it and said, well this is not even real disco, right and and I and I think others, you know were dubious about it. But Robert stigwood was a real champion and he said five songs on this cassette three of them are number one hits. At least I thought wow, that’s pretty uh, that’s pretty arrogant.

You know, how do you know? What’s going to be a number one hit right, uh, he was wrong. Of course. There were four number-one hits on that. Um, and I don’t know what happened to the fifth one but it is probably number two. It was probably a number two. That’s that’s right. Now when you I mean but that’s a director.

I mean, we all as directors hope to be involved with the project that gets this kind of attention. What was it like getting the spotlight thrown on you? I’m assuming some opportunities opened up after the movie. Yes, of course, uh, The first the Hollywood first reaction was to poop of course because they had just they were just totally shocked by all of the negative parts of it, you know, especially the language and the sexism and I actually got fired from a movie the day after we ran it at the big Hollywood screening, uh picture got put in turn around 7:30 in the morning.

Uh, I’m going to New York to the New York opening and I get a phone call, you know telling me that the show I was working on is now in turn around because the head of the studio, uh saw the movie last night and doesn’t want anything to do with the director who would you know produce that till the box office comes in?

Yeah. And yeah the box office came but they never changed their mind. Yeah that movie eventually got made but not not with me sure. Um, so I yes, it was crazy to opening night, uh in Los Angeles as I was coming back from New York, uh, I drove by the Village theatre in Westwood just as you know, Take a look see what the Marquee look like and and I see a line at the box office this about 10:30 at night that are playing gut in and uh, and I drive around the block and the line keeps going and going and going goes all the way around the block of this big theater.

And this is for the 12 o’clock show. Wow. And and I walked into the walked into the lobby and all the Paramount execs were standing in there grown men jumping up and down like little kids all they saw was dollar signs, of course, and of course went on to be an extreme huge it it did the little neighborhood theater near me in Studio City.

Uh had it in their theater for six months. Wow back when you could do that. You could do that. That was like, I mean, we were kind of following Star Wars in in a lot of markets and we’re replacing Star Wars, uh, because I knew that as I was checking theaters that usually not have a print. Of Saturday Night Fever yet, but uh, they they would put up the, you know, a real of Star Wars and I’d look at it and check the sound and so on.

Wow, um now let me ask you a question when you approach. Uh, how do you approach directing a scene in general like when you’re going to go into a scene? What is your thought process? What is your problem in your process in general? Um, well. There is usually about a dozen questions that I that I have to ask which is um, what’s what’s different?

What have we learned? Uh, what’s different at the end of the scene from the beginning? You know, what the characters in the scene? What did what did they want? What is one character want? And what is the other character want? Let’s say there’s two people in the scene. Hopefully they’re opposed to each other.

They’re not just all agreeing. You know, there’s there’s there’s some kind of conflict. So I’m always looking for you know, where’s the conflict in here? What’s interesting what in the course of the conflict causes something to change from the beginning to the end of the scene? You know, I asked whose point of view is this scene, um as at this character or this character, Uh, you know, are we rooting for for anybody in particular?

And then and then finally I’m asking okay, these guys have goals, uh, a guy a guy wants to take a girl out for coffee and she doesn’t know if she likes this guy or not. So that his goal is to talk her into going for coffee and her goal is you know to kind of politely slide out of it, you know, and you know, there can be a fun scene there, you know, and how does he go about it is he is he aggressive like a you know, a real macho guy would be or is he a kind of nerdy guy?

Who’s kind of embarrassed, but he’s really excited about this girl, and he really wants to. You know take her so he overcomes his shyness. So so as you just start to pull it apart asking these different questions, you you pretty quickly develop a point of view on the scene. Very cool. Now, what do you do when you’re not getting the performance you want out of an actor?

Um, well usually, uh, I I’m trying to. Help them and say, you know go and say no. What are you playing here? What are you trying to get? What’s your goal here? And uh, and usually a lot of the problem is is that they haven’t focused on on that they say, well, you know when I was a kid my dad used to you know, Yell at me and it made me wet my bed.

And I said no, I don’t want to hear this. I want to know what are you doing right now? Well, I you know, and I I’ve gotta focus them on what they’re trying to do. And I and I’m really tough about making them come up with the answer. Okay, I can go and it’s easy for me to go and tell them now, you know, uh persuade this girl, you know, charm her into going I can do that.

But the more I can make I can help an actor come up with stuff themselves the you know, the better they’re gonna be. That makes perfect sense. Um now do you have any advice for dealing with difficult actors or difficult department heads on a set, which I’m sure you’ve had to deal with at one point or another in your life.

Absolutely every every Department. Um, and and a cameraman. Let’s say comes up to me and I say here here. Here’s the shot. I was thinking about doing. And and he goes well, I don’t know. I don’t I don’t I don’t like that that shot. There’s uh, there’s a lot of ways to deal with this which is no this is what we’re going to do.

And you know, let’s let’s make it work that way and you can get into a big argument or the guy goes. Okay. All right fine, which is the last time you’ll ever get any, you know, good creative contribution from that camera man, and or it’s just gonna be a you know, a war between the two of you for the rest of the shoot.

I I look at the guy and go. Oh, that’s interesting. Uh, tell me about it. Tell me what do you think and he says well, you know this that in the next thing you saved. Oh great. Tell me more. I had I never thought of it that way and even if it’s the worst idea in the world, that’s why you know saying something like I never thought of it that way it’s not judgmental.

Uh, it’s just kind of letting him expound on it. In the course of that and it could work this way with an actor with a costume designer with an editor, uh, in the course of that. I’m learning what point of view that that person has on what we’re talkin about and and I’m and I’m hearing them and I’m also getting them giving them a chance to kind of vent whatever feelings they have.

And and I’m not overriding them and it doesn’t mean that I’m letting them push me over either. Uh, I’m just I’m just listening and doing what uh, some people call active listening. Um where you’re just kind of feeding. Oh, that’s interesting. So you think that that this this uh shot is into the backlight and and and you can’t you can’t like you can’t compensate for that.

No, well, that’s kind of what I was thinking. So, what do you think? What do you think we should do how would you do it? So with an actor if an actor says well, I think I should be over here. And and I think should try this I go. Well, let’s try it. My answer to them is usually yes, let’s go let’s try it because I know that if I let that person try it.

Then their sense of professionalism and their creative instincts as an actor. Uh, it’s going to start to ring alarm Bells when it doesn’t work when they try it when they said to be over here because the scenes scenes have a dramatic logic that it’s hard to Buck right? And if you go and you try some weird adaptation to the scene, it’ll tell you know, this doesn’t feel right.

But but the actor having tried it first of all is more willing to try that your way and you know say well, let’s do it both ways or kill actually realize that it’s you know, that his idea didn’t work or Miracle of Miracles. It’s a great idea only by trying it. Did you say? Oh my God, I I would have missed an opportunity here, right?

By me and I’ve had that happen any number of times where an actor comes up with it with an idea and I go on inside my head, right? I try to follow this little method that I just outlined for you and go. Oh my god. Oh, oh, that’s great. We would have missed something here. Well, thank you Bill to the actor now.

For that. I mean, there’s not a lot you can do on the other hand with actors that are you know, showing up drunk or high or just basically unprofessional really untalented that you made a mistake in casting and um, that’s that’s when more radical Solutions are called for. Like, you know, can you can you change?

Can you change the actor? If you can’t, how do you how do you disguise them, you know hide them behind other people shoot over their shoulder. Uh, yeah, I did. There’s little tricks here from them. But let me ask you something though. And I’ve had this happen to me on set and I’m sure it’s happened to you.

Not recently probably but when you were first starting out where actors and department heads as well, but uh more experienced actors will test you. Yes on the first day to see if they’re safe with you and the and is that true. Absolutely, of course, yeah, and how do you deal and how do you deal with that?

And so I’m it’s It’s tricky because you know, I’m trying to pay attention. I’m trying to be prepared. But I’m also trying to be interested in what they’re bringing to it. If if I look like I’m paying more attention to the camera in the lenses than their performance. Uh, they’re going to register that right away, you know because you get to the end of a scene and call cut um, and the camera operator goes on no good the actor immediately thinks that’s about them that they’re no good right person.

Whereas actually the camera operator saw a coffee cup on the ground in the background and it shouldn’t have been there, right? Um, So I’m always paying attention to the actor and going over to uh, I go over to every actor after every take and and just even if it just Pat them on the shoulder or a nod my head or your thumbs up or say you’re on a good path or give them a little Direction.

They know I’m paying attention because I’m trying to. You know build some trust and building trust with with an actor is as you say very difficult. I started 6:30 in the morning going into makeup trailer saying, you know, good morning to them. Is there in the chair and how you thinking about today’s work and are there any problems I can help you with things things like that this to start.

Building building trust before we ever get on the stage. It’s a lot to do with psychology as well. And that’s something they don’t teach you at film school. They don’t teach you the psychology of the film set. Well, uh, I tried to where I teach at Chapman sure. Uh, that’s that’s a big part of it and and um at the risk of uh, plugging my own stuff that my two books, Are dealing, you know dealing with with problematic actors and building trust.

Okay, what are the name of the books? Please plug away? Okay. Well John badham on directing. Okay, uh, it wasn’t my idea for that title. But okay and and and and my first book which is called I’ll be in my trailer, which is something you often hear from. You know from an actor you’re having an argument with I’ll be in my trailer call my agent.

Oh my yes, that could be that could be equal. Exactly. Well, we’ll make sure to put links to those books in the in the show notes of the of the show now you’ve worked with I mean the over the course of your career. I mean the the amount of different Legends and movie stars and and just Talent is is amazing if you look over the scope of your career.

How do you direct a movie star? How do you direct a legend? You know as a younger director coming up? What do you or even if you’re on the same team like, you know that there’s different egos involved. There’s different personas involved. How do you like how do you direct a Mel Gibson? Um and a Goldie Hawn in Bert on a wire when both of them were arguably at the peak of their stardom.

There were in that area of the peak of their stardom. They were giant movie stars. How do you how do you direct people like that? Well, uh, I I think it’s hard because because they’re intimidating, uh people there they’re bringing so much experience, uh to to the set. And they they deserve respect they’ve earned the respect and and I think they become your creative Partners to treat them in any other way was a big big mistake.

Um, and we sat with with Goldie Hawn and with Mel for quite a while several times during the preparation of that. Of that movie, you know listening to their thoughts about the characters and the scenes and what works and both of them are very very smart people with good insights and my partner Rob Cohen and I, you know spend a lot of time listening carefully, uh to what they had to say and taking taking advantage of it.

Um, It’s not the kind of thing where it’s a one-man a one-man show like um, well I can’t think of think of a good example where it’s all about the director Orson Welles, but but here, you know, as you know in many Star driven vehicles. Uh, you know, you want their chemistry you want to create a chemistry and Foster a chemistry between them and you it’s a comedy also.

So, uh, you’re looking for them to come to work in this in as happy and and and uh and up a mood as possible because that’s going to reflect in all of your scenes. And if people are not happy that really reflects, I mean you can tell it we as an audience can go there’s no chemistry here. Oh my God, we’ve seen movies like that with big movie stars.

You could just tell how absolutely no chemistry and had no business being on the screen together or that they hated each other. Oh, hey, they hate each other and you can tell it it just smells from from the screen. And it smells the opposite way to when there is that chemistry when there is that enjoyment and Spills right off the screen, of course now, of course now when you’ve directed some just amazing action films in the course of your career in your opinion, what makes a good action sequence well, uh, generally.

There has there has to be something where you’re really involved the character the main the main characters have really strong opposing goals and you know something becomes action when normal conversation just doesn’t make it any more you you know, it’s gotten to the point where people have to get into a fight they have to do a Chase.

Uh, You know, some words words don’t happen anymore, but they’re people pressing their goals and the trick is now if you’re if you’re in let’s just say something as simple as a car chase, what are the things that happen during that chase the different events that happen that start to get more and more exciting and build it can’t just be.

The uh, the stagecoach comes by and then the Indians are chasing it and they come by then. The stagecoach comes by then the Indians come by. It’s things have to be happening. Uh, the the Indians have to be trying to stop the stagecoach and jumping on to the lead horses to stop it. And the and the the guy up on top of the stage coaches trying to shoot the guy who jumped on the horses, right?

And so you get through that now you got to come up with something that’s even bigger and uh and keep it keep a good action sequence alive with one one event after another. So when you look at the great classic scenes that my one I’m describing is from John Ford Stagecoach, uh, you know, you can jump ahead to bullet or The French Connection.

And and see oh my God, we are so concerned about the Jeopardy that Gene Hackman is in chasing this subway train under underneath the L. We’re frightened to death because we know how scary that is and and and and he’s almost hitting other people, but we want him to catch up. With the that subway train that’s getting away and I heard it’s just brilliant sequence.

Oh, no, I studied that sequence from what I have read and heard that they were really driving at like 70 miles an hour during that situation. Like it was a real thing. I mean, I know they had stunt people and stuff like that, but it wasn’t like they blocked off blocks and blocks and blocks. I heard that they were like just really driving and yeah, it was very scary.

Yeah, they were built Bill Hickman who was the driver on that? Uh, you know, they’d go out at six in the morning and just take off and oh my God is terrifying and and you could get it on screen and you got it on and you got it on film. It was amazing that sequence anyone listening. If you have not seen The French Connection, please stop listening to this podcast go watch The French Connection.

Um, now what um any advice on working with younger or less experience Cass? Um, it’s the same whether it’s whether it’s children or or young adults, um, I mean which with children that the biggest trick is casting it right in the first place, right? I mean that’s that’s easy to say, but if you haven’t cast it right in the first place with a child who’s got an imagination whose relaxed to it’s not intimidated and who listen to you.

Uh, you’re in terrible trouble. Um, but if you’ve got a child, uh, that hasn’t has an imagination. You can almost turn them loose right? I I had a conversation with Robert Mulligan who directed To Kill a Mockingbird and I said, how did you deal with these children? And and he said I cast them right in the first place.

I just kind of put them in situations and and and give him a little uh idea of what was happening in the scene and just let him go um, and and and their their imagination took over. Um, so of course they spent uh by Mulligan and Alan pakula spent over six months trying to find those children in the first place, right?

You know, they raid looked and looked and looked all over the country. Um, so that’s, you know part of the thing you it’s easy if you can if you can get Mel Gibson to come and be in your movie, uh, or, you know, I’ve been big start. You know, most of the work is being done for you by that person, right?

So I forgot who said it but cat was a casting is 90% of directing or something along those lines. Well, I think it was a liar Kazan who said it and my question always was. Yeah, and how do you get that other 10% and you get some tell us about that thing now I wanted to ask you about one of my favorite movies, uh that you’ve done short circuit.

How did you direct that robot on set? How did that work? I mean the technical aspects of that must have been you must’ve pulled your hair out because I’m assuming it didn’t work all the time. We had uh, Most most movie stars have have some kind of a nice trailer number five had an 18-wheeler. That was all his it filled with different versions of him big versions little versions versions that went left versions that went right puppeteered versions, uh miniature versions to drop off Bridges and and uh, A full-time 24/7 special effects crew that kept him running.

I mean he was our uh dark Eddie Murphy, uh, he was our comedy guide the star and Steve Guttenberg and Ally Sheedy. God bless their hearts. Uh knew that and knew they took they knew their place was in the movie. That’s okay. You know, we’re here to support number five and I I made everybody treat him like we had Eddie Murphy, you know, I go on the set in the morning and when when the guys would bring him out I’d go over and give him a give him a hug and start talkin to him because we always had one puppeteer.

That was the voice of number 5 and and so he would be talkin back and you know, it’s real easy with with creatures like that to begin to believe they’re real. Yeah, I’m sure I’m sure when if you’re talkin to Frank Oz on the set of Empire Strikes Back eventually you just start looking at Yoda like Yoda.

Yeah, it’s Yoda, and and um. You know, thank goodness. We didn’t have uh any huge mechanical breakdowns because the guys were so worked so hard to make sure he was operating all the time and doing crazy impossible things. Like he looks at a grasshopper in one scene and watches the grasshopper jump and then a full size six-foot-tall number 5 stars.

Hopping like a grasshopper. I saw that and that was before visual like high-end visual effects. Oh, this is all mechanical. Yeah visual effects special effects. Yeah. I was how he flipped a coin like like oh, yeah. I remember like James Cagney really nothing of coin. And that was all stuff we had to do for real because there was no CGI, right?

It was all practical you could do simple math shots and and very simple things like put in a sunset or something like that. But to do what we do today, no way not even close and I remember when that came out that was a monster hit as well. That was another big hit when it came out. Uh, i-i. I’d loved it.

I love that movie it was. I have I have uh number five a small version of number five in my office. That’s awesome. Um now one other movie that you did, um, I want to talk to you about how did you approach directing a remake of a movie like Le Femme Nikita with the movie point point of no return.

How does the director approached a remake of somebody else’s work? And how do you put your own twist on it and be faithful to the original material I’ve always. To know how you were able to bring it bring it to life. I so love Le Femme Nikita when I saw it and it was in a very small theater in Los Angeles.

Uh, and you know, I I know that it’s often hard to get people to go and see subtitled movies and and I and I walked out of that and I said to my wife, um, You know, this would make a great American version, uh, you know, it’s such an amazing story and and I just don’t think you know, anybody’s gonna see it because we’re seeing it in this nice little theater, but you know, it was a little Multiplex with 14 theaters and it was in the smallest one of the 14.

Um, and I think I think during off-hours that theater doubled as a phone booth. Um, my brother observed he’d seen he’d seen more people in the 7-Eleven at three in the morning, right? Uh, then we’re in this movie theater. So I also said to her if I’m thinking of this at the point this in the theater, somebody else has got this idea and somebody owns this I bet somebody’s already bought this sure enough Warner Brothers had bought it.

For Luc Besson to direct an American American version of it an American version. Okay, and he was going to come over and do an American version of it. And and I and I Shrugged my shoulders and went well too late. I should have been earlier and and then Lucas are woke up one day and went I got other things to do.

I’ve already done this I don’t need to do this again, right? That’s somebody else. So then they they came to me and now our goal is how can we do an adaptation of it without making you know making something that is more American than and uh fresh and keep the spirit of it. It’s kind of difficult, but that’s what we we went to two writers.

Um, Uh who were character writers not not plot writer and um and that and I thought it’s all gonna be about her character and how that how that works for us because we’ve got a very strong story here. We don’t need more plot. Well, we need as people, you know characters that that we can identify.

And that was that was our approach. Um and um, and it came up with the idea of of for the soundtrack using Nina Simone as um as a touchstone for her, uh, that that her songs and her kind of female Rebellion, uh that Nina Simone sang about. Was was something that would would be interesting and helping, you know, helping this character.

Um, so you actually brought it to life because of your love for it right now and I I lobbied hard, you know to get that to get that job. Uh, because I I did really really love it and and. Love the character loved all the characters. It was such a great story. It was such a unique fresh story when it came out.

It was it was Monumental but Luke and Luke is an amazing director as well. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean his this time a big big fan of his and and and I’m sure I was vilified in France. You know, how dare you how dare you touch this? How dare how dare I touch it? And and I just I just told the French Press I said, well, please talk to Luc Besson.

He’s the guy that sold it to us. Exactly Luke’s the one sold it we just went and uh, very politely asked you know with you know, can we make a version of this and he said sure now, um, I have a couple questions left, um out of all the films that you have made. Do you have a favorite one?

Well, it’s hard to say because there’s good things and bad things and and and everything and you know, I think about the good things and then wince at the bad ones and the mistakes they could have don’t we all done better and sometimes it takes. 25 or 30 years before I go. Oh, no. I just figured out how to do that now.

All right. So, um, you know T Chapman University. What is the biggest lesson you try to teach your students that it’s not about the equipment. It’s about the human beings. It’s not about the kind of fancy camera moves that it’s easy to learn how to how to do. It’s about what is going on with the characters here.

What’s the story? If you don’t get that right then all the rest matters for nothing, uh with young with young directors, um that the first thing you can learn the easiest thing to learn is how the equipment works and and then you can get it in your hands and it’ll pretty much do what you want it to do.

Uh human beings on the other hand our order, uh, you don’t do what you want them to do is and um, and they have they have creative thoughts and and you have to learn how to deal with that and that that frightens, uh, young directors no end and a lot of our job is trying to teach them how to work with actors.

And uh, you know learning how to get the best performance out of them in in addition to uh, you know, how to work with screenwriters and and uh, you know, make make stories work as well as they they can they can do now. What advice would you give a filmmaker wanted to break into the business today?

Is there something else that you’d like to do? Why for God’s sakes? Why why would you want to do this? I have I have a class of 23 students right now who are all shooting their first short five-minute films. Okay, and uh and and there’s they’re starting to learn a lot of the. The difficult parts of filmmaking that have nothing to do with filmmaking, uh, getting getting permits finding actors, um budget all kinds of things that they you know, you don’t think about right when you thinking about you know, glamorous filmmaking, but they’re havin they’re havin to learn it’s a.

It’s a very tough upward uh struggle as as you know, and that almost has an automatic self sorting, uh factor to it where people start dropping by the wayside when they I don’t have the energy or the I don’t care about it enough to do it or I’m not very good at this a lot of times we find people.

Uh thinking they want to direct and then realizing they don’t like interfacing with with human beings as much but they love putting the film together or they love shooting, uh, you know, being a cinematographer, right? So they find other things that they that they really enjoy doing and and that they’re good at.

And they and they can make a make a career there because God knows we have enough opportunities now with all of the television channels and cable channels. Oh, yes. It’s so uh insane so great compared to say television of 20 years ago when you had four networks, and and that was it. That was the only place you could go but now.

Gosh all over the place. So there is opportunity which is fabulous. And for those who are you know, making good films and film school, you know, they’ll they’ll get to break through. The cream does rise to the top as they say absolutely absolutely and if you are, you know nowadays. If you’re a talented and let’s say you’re in a minority group or you’re a woman.

You’ve got a leg up. It’s a great time for them because people are taking their uh them much more seriously and and and they’re getting many more opportunities, right? Um, my uh, I had a manager a talent manager come to one of my classes to talk to them about it. And and he looked around the classes, uh 12 people and he said I can tell you who’s going to be the big talents in this in this room right now.

I’ve only been in this room for five minutes and he points to the two women.

I’m not joking. I said that you know, you got you guys would you know, this is great. You’re gonna get an extra an extra little break. Here that’s all and long long overdue. Absolutely. Absolutely. Now. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Oh my gosh. It’s a tough question. I I think I’m still learning it. So I don’t know what it is fair enough fair enough, um, and then three of your favorite films of all time. Oh, Okay, uh No Country for Old Men. What a great movie. Oh love that movie Citizen Kane, huh? Huh? What? Yeah, I’ve heard I’ve heard of it.

Yes heard you heard you’ve heard of it. I’ve seen it many times. It’s wonderful and The Godfather number. Number one or number two. Can I lump them together? Literally another person another guest at the exact same thing. I’m like, I’m just gonna lump one and two together because at the same movie together, this should be so absolutely John.

These are movies. These are movies that have the I’m only going to watch a scene test, which is you’re flipping through the channels and. And you come across something a scene on Godfather. And you say I’m only going to watch a scene three hours later. You realize you’ve watched both. Yes. Yes. It definitely has that.

It definitely passes that test John. I want to thank you so so much for being on the show and sharing your knowledge and experience with the uh with the Indian tribe. I really truly appreciate it. It’s been an honor. Oh well, thank you to talk to you. Good makes me think thanks my friend. All right, as promised John dropped some major knowledge bombs on the tribe today.

So John again, thank you so so much for being on the show. It was an absolute honor, uh speaking to you my friend. And if you want links to any of his books or some amazing videos that I have in the show notes head over to indie film two three four, and you could also see John’s demo reel so you can get an example of what a demo reel for a director working today.

In television and feature films looks like as well as links to his books and I put a little bonus episode. They’re all from YouTube on him sitting down talking about his book on directing which is about 30 minutes of just amazing knowledge bombs as well. And if you guys haven’t done it yet head over to screenwriting podcast and please subscribe to my new podcast focusing on the craft and business of screenwriting the bulletproof screenplay.

Now also I know a lot of you guys have been emailing me and messaging me about ego and desire you guys want to know when the movies coming out what’s going on with it. I really haven’t spoken a whole hell of a lot about it. Um, and there’s reasons for all of that guys, but I have some stuff up my sleeve and you know when I have stuff up, Sleeve generally that’s good news for you guys.

So there’s going to be a lot more of ego and desire coming up shortly. Hopefully in the next few months a lot more information and a lot more content that I’m going to be creating for you guys so that can hopefully inspire you to go out and make your own movie. So as always keep that hustle going keep that dream alive and I’ll talk to you soon.

Thanks for listening to the indie film hustle podcast at indie film hustle. That’s fil m.