IFH 233: Real Filmmakers Don’t Starve with Jeff Goins

Welcome to the indie film hustle a podcast episode number 233. You shouldn’t dream your film. You shouldn’t make it Steven Spielberg. Podcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It’s the indie film hustle podcast where we showed you how to survive and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film Biz.

And here’s your host Alex Ferrari. Welcome Andy film Hustlers to another episode of the indie film hustle podcast. I am your humble host Alex Ferrari. Today’s episode is brought to you by Black Box black box is a new platform and community. That is all about Financial Freedom for filmmakers like you.

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So true to me and what I try. I’m trying to do here at any film Hustle. How I’m trying to show you guys how to survive and thrive in the film business and that you don’t have to be a broke starving artist. That is a very old mentality and today’s world. You have to be able to make money doing your art and that’s what I try to do here at the podcast and on the blog and all the other places.

I’m at the try to show you to do that and Jeff’s book. Awesome. It really kind of hones in on this mentality on this thought process and I needed to have Jeff on the show so he can share with you tips and techniques on how you can monetize your art how you can build a career around your art around your films around your writing.

Whatever you want and he is also the best-selling author of The Art of work as well, which is another amazing Butch will talk a little bit about as well. So without any further Ado, please enjoy my conversation with author Jeff Goins. I’d like to welcome to the show Jeff Gordon’s man. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Hey Alex, good to be here. Thanks for having me. I’m a huge fan of your book, uh real artist Don’t Starve and I wanted you to come in and talk to the tribe because I think it’s something that the message that a lot of filmmakers and artists around the world need to hear because of this whole myth of the starving artist artist.

Can you talk a little bit of discuss a little bit about that myth and how wrong it could it actually is. Yeah, so a myth is a story that we tell ourselves to help us make sense of the world around us. So there are religious myths their political myths, uh, their cultural myths and the myth of the starving artist is a story that creative people have told themselves for hundreds of years, uh to try to make sense of the reason why it’s sometimes feels difficult to sell.

Your art and I want to debunk this myth because I think it no longer serves creative professionals. I think it actually hurts your work, and because I think we live in this age where creative Success is Not only possible. It’s probably as long as you’re willing to actually do the work. I think we live in the era of greatest opportunity for Creative people to succeed today.

Bye. Uh, in order to do that, you have to stop telling yourself the story which is there’s no money in art. You can’t make any money off of we had a whatever it is writing. Uh filmed ilm’s you name it. I mean, it’s really interesting because you can go into almost any industry and you’re gonna find two groups of people, uh, thriving artists and starving artist and Starving Artists are saying well, you can’t make any money off of blank whatever it is, uh again writing.

Uh storytelling you name it and um, and while those people are saying that there is always a group of folks who are thriving at it by simply applying, uh, you know, certain principles Mark business tactics, which I talk about in the book to help them succeed. So I believe that being a starving honest today is a choice not a necessary condition of doing your creative work now, can you discuss some of those?

Uh, This principles. Yeah, so in the book, um, basically what I did was a. Interviewed hundreds of thriving creative professionals today from various industries from uh theater to film, um, writing, uh, Visual Arts cartoonists dancers. You name it? Basically has a question like what do these people have in common because obviously um, not every person’s success is identical to another person’s but if you read enough biographies follow enough stories of people who have succeeded with their art.

You tend to start seeing some similarities at least. This was my hope and what emerged from that experience of talking all these people reading all these biographies studying 500 years of History particularly, uh folks in the Arts and seeing what do they do to succeed and identified? Twelve principles.

Uh, I call them the 12 rules of the New Renaissance and it turns out these 12 things that thriving artists do to succeed are 12 things that most starving artist actually avoid or don’t believe they need to do so, these are things like the first rule is um, the. Uh is the idea of the rule of recreation that at any point you get to decide what you want to be in what you want to do you get to change paths in life.

And this is debunking this idea that you’re just born with it, right? You’re just born with taste or an artistic ability or the ability to tell a story. It’s not true. You’re not you’re not born. I like what Seth Godin says about this. We’re all just born pooping in our diapers. Like we all start at the same place an environment can shape us and yes, I don’t disagree that.

Uh, genetics can come, you know, come to play in certain physical or athletic activities. Uh, but if you want to be an artist if you want to create for living if you want to tell stories you want to make something that’s going to connect with people’s hearts. I don’t care if your. Orange doing this or this is something you decide at 20 years old 40 years old 60 years old.

Uh, you have the ability to do that. So that’s one of the things that you know a couple others. Is the idea of marketing most creative people. I know want to work on their art. They don’t want to have to Market their work and I think a thriving artist does this in a really smart way where they’re not like putting uh Flyers, you know all around town saying artist for hire.

You’re not just going to uh cocktail parties throwing out. You know your um, uh business card says filmmaker like this basically leads to nothing other than you getting a really bad reputation. But what I do think works is uh what I call practicing in public and this is one of the rules this is the Smart Way for an artist or Creator today to Market their work.

So on one hand. Uh, you can’t just make the work and let the work speak for itself, which is what we all want to do. I get that it doesn’t work. Exactly that way what thriving artists do however is is they’re not just like walking around, uh, you know with a megaphone saying hey look at me. It’s sort of a blend of the two and I call it practicing in public.

And so what that means is. You are doing your work. And then you are sharing your work in very specific channels where it has a likelihood to succeed. So if you’re a writer that may mean that you’re blogging or writing for a popular column if your visual artist. It probably means that you’re sharing works and progress on Instagram.

Uh, and it’s very important that whatever you whatever your practice is that you do it on a regular ideally daily basis so that you are producing a lot of work. You’re putting it out there. And again, this is just like Snippets of your work. You’re not lying. Writing a movie script and you know giving it away for free but you were sharing, uh, your your stuff and what you’re doing is you’re demonstrating your competency.

And if you’re good, you’re also building an audience in the process which eventually allows you the opportunity to, you know, obviously make money at some point and then you know, I would say another uh rule that artists struggle with is the idea of working for free which is like this sort of the.

Other side the corollary to practicing in public which is. Like you’re doing that for free, but your marketing lots of people pay to Market your basically finding creative ways to do work, which you love doing and then giving it away in certain channels, uh, where it is much more likely that you’re going to find an audience and it’s going to help the work succeed.

Um, but. On the other hand, you don’t want to set a precedent that your work doesn’t have any value. So practicing in public means giving away a little pieces of your work in different places where people you know are getting sort of a free sample. They can get a taste of it and go. Okay. I want to find out more.

Uh, like I have a friend who’s a filmmaker and um, he does his little like 30 second Clips on Instagram where um, he’s actually not he’s not. Um, Sharing, you know, like documentary or whatever that he’s working on. Uh, typically he’s like doing some fun thing like one day he um, uh did uh, like a 30 seconds overview of his day and he followed his wife around and just did these like quick like to three second clips and told a story about, you know a day in the life of.

Him and his wife but it was like really cool and it was done really well. And so obviously if you’re watching this you’re going well if he can do that. You know with just an ordinary, you know Day in the Life. What can you do with you know, X Y or Z that sort of that idea and but you know, like it would be a bad idea for him to do free gig after free gig after free gig and this is like really bad advice that I hear today.

You just have to work do a bunch of work for free and then you get noticed and then eventually people will pay you and that’s just not true and most of the thriving artists. I talked to um, had a very. Strict rule that they very rarely um, uh did work for free and if they did it they were being charitable, you know, they were doing it for a non-profit or a cause that they believed in they weren’t like doing it as the norm expecting to like that.

It would eventually get it would lead to some sort of paid work. So those are three things. So with the whole working for freethinkers a lot of in our industry in the film industry. Um, there is a lot of that working for free because you’re not. As an artist yet. You’re basically trying to get into the business.

You’re trying to learn the different aspects of the business because filmmaking is a combination of many Arts. I’ll put together so and many crafts. Um, so you learned almost like a either a apprenticeship or by just learning by watching and doing and I always Advocate like when you’re starting out get on as many sets as you can if you have to work for free work for free for a little bit, but you’re not creating for free you just kind of watching for free and and giving.

Time for free and that way you do make those connections and you do learn is that I because I completely agree with you. I’m like don’t start making movies and giving them away for free constantly because then you’re going to be value yourself as an artist. But do you agree that learning is much as you can and sometimes doing that for free not for years, but for a little while at least to get your foot in the door, it’s not a bad idea.

I totally agree and it is like a weird thing and like it can sounds like a contradiction but um like rule number three is Apprentice under a master. So. The idea is in the book you start out. You’re not born this way you but it’s a decision like you choose to be an artist and it’s it’s the decision and I would get to put the filmmakers in the artist category.

You’re creating art, you’re creating stuff that is going to change and move and impact people in hopefully, you know transformative. Ways and so this is a choice and you have to keep working on it. Um, but if you think that you’re gonna arrive on the scene, just awesome the way you are practicing in your basement or on your laptop, you’re kidding yourself is you know, because your Snickers indicate Alex, um, you’ve got to find out what it actually takes to be a professional and reading a book listening to the podcast watching a bunch of YouTube clips is a poor substitute.

Putting yourself under the mantle of somebody who has mastered your craft. And so I absolutely am a big fan of apprenticeship and apprenticeship, you know in the Renaissance and in the Middle Ages did take years and that’s different from working as a professional. And doing lots of gigs for free and I like the apprenticeship model of basically seven years you earn Apprentice.

That means you’re a student. This is your education many apprentices paid to get an apprenticeship just like that, you know, we paid to go to university or film school or school or whatever. Um, so if you can get a gig. Out of internship where you’re like that and donuts like you actually get to sit in the room and see the sausage being made and get to eventually hopefully participate in some of that process that’s incredibly valuable.

And so I tell people when we’re talkin about not working for free the goal here is to always work for something right. And so the problem Alex is, you know, if you’re whatever screenwriter right because that’s a very Pettit of field where everybody’s sort of undercutting each other and and it can get really Cutthroat and hard to make living.

Um, and you’re writing all these, you know treatments or whatever and not getting compensated, uh for them and you’re doing this, you know for years. And you’re a professional and and you’re just doing lots of gigs for free. Hope it’s somebody saying well, this is a good opportunity. Right? This is going to lead to something else.

I talked to Steven pressfield about that who you know used to work in Hollywood screenwriter and he says opportunities are bullshit. He says, um, I’ve never. Uh, like like I’m sure these things happen, you know once in a while, but I’ve never done a gig for free or somebody said it’s going to be a great opportunity and it’s led to anything and so my encouragement to PS and like look like there’s there’s always that one story right?

You know, of course, but you’re right anytime anytime there’s someone walks up as like, hey, this is a really great opportunity. This is going to lead. If you do this one for free, then you’re you know, we’ve got four other ones line. Up, I’ve fallen for that a few times early on in my career. And now you know on the post side you just like look look I can’t do it for free guys, you know, I don’t need any more things on my reel but but yeah it never generally I don’t think there’s ever been one of those sales pitches that ever panned out.

Yeah, and I mean what they’re saying is I don’t have a budget right like that’s what they’re really saying and like this could be big which is true for any creative project ever. But there’s no guarantee that it is going to be big and I mean it’s like the story of you know, the guy who says I’m you know, build your parachute on the way down.

Like that’s essentially what you’re saying is, you know, hey, like just jump out the airplane and Belgium on the way down and the one guy who survived, uh, you know gets hey I made it you can. Get to and that’s because you don’t hear from the 99 other debt gun, and that’s what this is. Like, it’s like do it for free and it’ll lead to something and you’re hearing from the one guy who didn’t die.

And so I’m not saying you’ve got to be a jerk. We’ve got to be too big for your britches. If you’re a brand new industry. You should be humble. You should be apprenticed under different people learning from them and that should honestly be an attitude that you carry throughout your career. But don’t set a precedent that your work is worth nothing.

And so I you know, I do this with speaking there’s some events where they want you to come in and speak for free. And um, you know, I’ve done the thing where they go ahead. Hey speak for free early on I was yeah, that’s great. That’s great. I’d get my message out there, but I have no way of actually quantifying what is actually doing for me and a friend of mine is a well-known speaker used to tour with Ray Charles.

He was the opening. Median for Ray Charles. Okay, and uh, yes crazy stories and he was like stop doing gigs for free. I was like, but this and that no stop working for free. They can afford something. I was like no they have no budget. He was trust me they can afford something. So just a low price doesn’t have to be a lot but just that some price that your wife will actually allow you to go travel for this.

I remember. Uh, you know like and so I think that’s a pretty good rule of thumb early on is you’ve got to low price in a high prices. If you know have some you can say this is what I want, but if you really want to Gig or you’re just trying to get some work you can you know say this is long as I’m a go but having this bottom.

You know number that you that you’re willing to turn work away, uh, you know for if you don’t get it for me that was like five bucks and um and uh, it was I know that if I get a check for 500 bucks plus travel and lodging like that’s that’s you know, like that’s a good day. And um, and so I like people call me and say hey, can you speak at this event and I would say, um, Uh, you have a budget they say no we have no budget I said, okay.

Well, you know normally and I would quote my high price I’d like, you know, try to get you know, a thousand bucks, but I really can’t do it for less than. Hundred and first time I did this Alex how many said? Oh, yeah, we can do that. Yeah. Why you send watch it. So there is that thing where you want to have no budget they kind of do have a budget.

Uh, the market is always willing to sustain more than you think it can the other thing is just because they can’t pay you doesn’t mean. That the gig isn’t worth doing if you can get something out of it. So remember the idea here is you always have to work for something. So if somebody wants you to get free and you really want to do and it’s fun and you’re like trying to build your portfolio cool, but maybe you say hey like as a rule I don’t work for free, but maybe we can negotiate something else out.

Uh, you know, I give this and you whatever, you know, like give me something for web. You know, maybe you’re doing a small film project in somebody’s a web designer and they can design your website for you and. You know now you’re giving several thousand dollars worth of value to them in and they’re compensating with several thousand dollars worth of value.

There’s something or maybe you’re just going. Hey, I’ll do this, but I need five referrals, right? You can’t tell them that I did this for free. I have a friend who’s a photographer who occasionally does that he’ll do a gig with like a very influential. Uh musician or whatever here in Nashville, and I’ll do it for free, uh, because he knows, you know, they could pay him, you know, a few thousand bucks whatever for his day, right, but he knows that he’d be more valuable to get five referrals to you know, his friends were it can be, you know, 15 or $20,000 in values, so I’m not opposed.

To not like to you occasionally not getting paid for your work as long as you’re getting something of actual real measurable value out of it, but just I mean. I like this surprise me. I spoke with hundreds of writers filmmakers dancers, uh, creative entrepreneurs and they did not do their work for free.

There was a study I mentioned in the book where it contrast unpaid internships and paid internships and they followed thousands of college graduates. And if you had an unpaid internship, even if you had a few of them, uh, you were half as likely for that that internship. Lead to paid work. And so something like 30% of unpaid internships led to jobs after college.

Whereas paid internships is like 62% and you know, we listen to this and we go yeah, that makes sense. You know, if you if you set a precedent, you’re not getting paid. They don’t want to start paying you that makes sense and yet like we continue to go into situations not getting paid thinking is going to lead to paid work and if you do, um do work for free because you want to be generous do it because you want to be generous.

Because you’re expecting it to lead to a paycheck and don’t be mad when it doesn’t lead to something like that. Perfect example on in my world when I was first starting out in music videos, uh, someone came to me with a Snoop Dogg music video and they said look we have no money. I’m like I’ll do I’ll call her it for free.

Yeah because it’s new dog and I plastered Snoop Dogg’s face everywhere on my reel on my website and it led to. Thousands upon thousands of thousands of dollars worth of work by doing a day of work for free. Yeah, and that’s not working for free Alex. That’s trading your time for reputation, you know, and they could have said no, you can’t you can’t put this on your reel you can’t talk about this at which point they would have been screwing you.

Yes, of course, of course, but I mean I made sure that was clear on the way in. Yeah, exactly. And so like that’s a great example of we don’t have money. But yeah, you can tell people that you did that and it’s a risk and I’m not opposed to taking risks, but gosh I know so. Many creatives who have made a habit of giving away their work as a rule the times they doing it for two three four years waiting for their big break and they are destroying their break, you know, exactly.

It would just be better to charge a little bit of money. Like I’m not to visual artist who start went from zero to twenty dollars per print. She was selling prints and I was huge for her because now she could go from 20 to 50 50 to 100 100 1000 and so on the gap between zero and one is exponentially greater than the Gap from 1 to 2 so you don’t have to like.

Go in uh, guns blazing saying, you know, I’m worth all this money. You just need to get paid for your time. And it doesn’t have to be minimum wage. Sometimes I think you know, just when you’re starting out it is what it is. Now. They just start you just start low and then over time you can start raising it like that $500 speaking rate is now $15,000, you know, uh, but going from 0 to a few hundred bucks, um, like that was huge for me, but it did start setting a precedent that.

I value and I think the idea here the principle here is nobody’s going to value your work until you do. Amen. Amen without question. Now one thing I want to talk to you about is this this kind of virus that’s an artist an artist heads of always trying to be 100% original being afraid of stealing art from someone else or anything like that.

I’ve tried to debunk this a bunch of times but I really want to hear what you have to say about it. Yeah. Well, I mean. There’s a quote by guy named will Durant. He’s a historian. He says nothing is new except Arrangement. And so it’s the idea that like we’re all will have the same Source material the same ideas.

You know, there’s a Joseph Campbell monomyth idea. There’s only one story the hero’s journey, and we’re just all retelling it in different ways the hero with a thousand faces kind of shown. And um, I think this is true and creative work. Uh, Michael Caine the actor said you have to steal you have to steal everything you see so creativity is not so much about coming up with an original idea as it is borrowing from other people’s ideas rearranging them and saying here look what I made.

I mean, I think a filmmaker who is. Uh, like the best at this in the like I know I know I know you’re gonna say to it’s Quentin Tarantino. Yeah, of course and he’s like. Like on a bash at about it, right? And and it’s I mean it’s fascinating when you whatever, you know, watch Reservoir Dogs or Pulp Fiction, uh, or, you know, the hateful eight and he is like totally intentionally ripping off all of his Heroes and it’s an Amash like he’s peas giving credit to the the films and the people that he loved but you know, what’s interesting about like the.

Average moviegoer. I’m guessing uh looks at Quentin Tarantino’s films and goes all this isn’t that interesting isn’t that original and he’s like no, what are you talkin about? You know that original. It is the opposite of original. Um, but that’s what we’re all doing from music to film to literature.

We are all building on the work that has come before us and hopefully we’re borrowing from enough different sources. That as we recombine these elements and rearrange them and reinterpret them. What we’re coming up with is our remix our understanding of that story that idea and people look at it and they don’t see all that.

They don’t they don’t see the work that went into it. They go wow, isn’t that interesting and if you don’t do that. Because I think people think well, I’m not gonna do that. I’m just going to create something original. If you don’t do that. What ends up happening is you create something ironically that looks really derivative where you subconsciously borrowed something from one person and you wrote that song you made that movie you wrote that book and it and it feels flat right because because when you aren’t trying to steal you end up becoming a copycat and it’s better to be a thief than it is to be a copycat and I think there’s a big difference between.

I think the audience really should understand is that being a hack and being on a tour, uh is different the big difference to that in my opinion is being a hack you copy from one source. So and then if you’re on a tour or you’re paying homage, you copy from multiple sources and you rearrange them and that’s the big difference between.

Literally being a hack when you just copy something and literally just replaced it with a couple of changed elements and changing it from multiple different sources and the one of the best examples of what you’re talkin about. Um, I’m assuming you saw the movie Point Break. Yeah, the original not whatever they came out with recently.

They’re The Originals of them. Actually. Did you see the it was horrible? Wasn’t it? The second one? Yeah, what ya got really good, uh, like reviews on Rotten Tomatoes and I was like, I was on a plane I was like sure why not. Okay, but I was like, how can you like remake a movie with uh, Keanu Reeves Patrick?

It’s an iconic movie. Yeah, but I mean, it’s almost a caricature done to it. Well, if you know right because you can they remade it seriously, you know, which you can’t like when they like like when they did like Baywatch as like an R-rated movie. Yeah, you know Dwayne John’s I was like, okay cool.

Like they’re having fun with it and they’re doing something different but they remade yeah, it was kind of fell flat is okay, but if you see but if you see Point Break, uh, there was a movie in the a multi billion-dollar franchise that stole. Point Break, I mean beat for beat which is Fast and Furious.

Uh, yeah you replace the Surfers with car racers and it’s the exact same story. FBI agent infiltrates gets involved with the girl. The girls is bull. It’s the same story and they become friends at the end and they don’t want to it’s it’s the same story. It’s the exact same story. But look it was done in a it was rearranged.

It was rearranged into completely new way. Um, could you argue that? It was stolen almost beat for beat sure, but that’s Hollywood. So, you know another example of this is and it really like I love that and I just all the time with movies and I’m like guys don’t you know, what’s going on here. Uh, like when I went to see the movie Cars the Pixar movie sure.

Uh, you know, you know, you know what I’m talkin about. I don’t know. I don’t actually I’m very interested. Okay, so you go see cars cars is a story of the hot shot. Um, you know race car young kid who’s from the big city and then he’s got going to his next race. He’s driving across country. And uh, he in the middle of the night crashes his car into uh, somebody fence and um, you know, and then the next day.

He wakes up and he’s in jail and um, uh, you know, the guy who uh, you know crashed into his fence, uh is the, you know town sheriff and he’s the judge and he’s you know, sentencing him to um, you know community service. He’s got to rebuild the road that he’s messed up in the fence and all that My Cousin Vinny.

No, I’m joking. There was a movie in the 90s. I think with Michael J fox called Hollywood. Oh my God, Hollywood. The story of a Hollywood plastic surgeon who’s driving cross-country for some big promotion or something that he’s doing uh, and in the middle of the night. He wrecks his car drives through a fence and the guy who’s fence.

He wrecks his also the town judge and sheriff and he’s a doctor too and and he sentences him to community service where he’s got to uh, you know be a doctor in a small town and it is the same story by the end of the movie. Got this Hotshot kid who adopts these small-town values and goes back to the big city and then realizes you know, he’s got a love interest all these things and he’s got the mentor who’s the the older guy who did what he did and has his own ghosts and stuff and he has to learn from him and leaves and then eventually comes back.

It is the exact same story. Oh my God, you’ve just blown my mind. You’ve just is like I didn’t hear anybody talking about. Why because it’s a cartoon, uh, because they’re they’re talking cars. But I remember watching Cars Pixar to that point mostly quote-unquote Original Stories, and I just thought it so interesting that they were borrowed from.

You know some 90s romantic comedy with Michael J fox and I and I am sure that was a remix of something else and so on and so on and so on that’s amazing, but the really just wanted to clarify that that you cannot be afraid to not honestly, it’s steal you steal from other. Art forms other. I mean you see artist constantly taking from paintings and you know in writers are taking from novels and all these kind of things.

You just have to rework it and take for multiple sources and not just one and and then you can then you can create a brand new and also when you do that, you also just start your own juices flowing where you start with someone else’s work. And then maybe you start twisting around kind of like with filmmakers.

We all want to be a cupric or a Fincher or Spielberg or Scorsese and we might start down that road, but then eventually you find your own voice by studying the Masters. Yeah. Yeah, I think uh before you find your wall. We all want to be original. We all want to be somebody that somebody else copies and I think you can do that.

But I think what we forget is all of these Masters all of our heroes. Started out copying their Heroes. So you start by copying then you curate the influences you rearrange them. And then ultimately you do do something creative and it is by using all the same Source material It Is by getting the skills and the techniques embedded into your you know muscle memory so that you’re not just doing you know, what Quentin Tarantino did, you know, uh mimicking it you you have got technique down where you.

Understand why he did that and once you once you do something enough, you you get to the Y and then you begin to make creative choices from that deep well of understanding, but at the very beginning, you know, we’re all just audience members and we’re watching you know, why did Stanley Kubrick do that?

That was weird and you know 2001 Space Odyssey. Um, And you study it and I don’t think you really understand it until you copy it you mimic it you get it into your bones. And then from there eventually you do stuff that the world dares to call original and you’re kind of going well, this is just like it’s like when somebody has.

Uh ba know how they got that original you to sound which everybody’s been copying for 30 years now, right and he said, you know, we all we were trying to do was copy all of these bands around, you know 80s a lot of hair bands and stuff and we just weren’t that good. We weren’t good enough to play guitar solos like that and you know in shred like that and so the Edgewood.

Turn up the delay and you know do it this way. He says we have trying to copy everybody around us. We weren’t that good. And this is what came out. Obviously 30 years later her long. It’s been they’re one of the few that they’re still remembered. Yeah, and they’re very intentionally doing those things that at the time we’re just improvisation.

What we could pull off right now. I mean, it’s like a story of Kevin Smith when you know, he does clerks for like $10,000 and he gets all this friends from Film School to volunteer, you know to be in the film. It takes 19 days as parents take out a $3,000, uh, you know, uh equity line of credit out of their mortgage and he makes it you know, and it has that and it’s raw and rough and but has that kind of iconic Kevin Smith feeling it becomes, you know it when it goes to Sundance and.

And then every film after that he has much larger budget, but he realized that there were certain things from those constraints and copying from these different influences that people really liked and So eventually you realize like I want to continue some of these things that maybe at the time me just doing my best to copy the people who came before me and in fact the way that I did it actually produced something original.

Absolutely, and can you talk you talk a little bit about your book about owning your work? Can you elaborate a little bit about that? Yeah, so, uh, I mean it is what it sounds like it is the idea that some most creative people sell out too soon. And I’m not opposed to selling out in the sense that you let somebody else acquire your intellectual property.

I’ve done this with books. I’ve done this with, you know, a number of projects, but you need to understand that if you are spending. Hundreds of hours or years of your life creating a piece of Ip and then you sell it to the first bidder. First of all, the first bidder is going to be the lowest to the um, you no longer control that work and you no longer, uh, depending on the agreement, uh, get paid for that and um writers do this a lot with film options and and books as well.

Yeah books as well. Um a great example of this an exception to the rule V JK Rowling who um, a lot of people don’t know this but Disney wanted to acquire the film rights for Harry Potter and uh, she turned him down because she wanted like a one percent, uh royalty for all the films and like we’re not doing that’s insane and it is not typical either.

She said, okay and Universal was like will do that deal and that one decision. Made her a billionaire, uh, similar story, um with you know, the guys who uh started Pixar where um, You know very early on they were Disney came along and said hey, you know, we like what you’re doing and again with John Lasseter.

It actually was fired from Disney left joined George Lucas. It was Steve Jobs, you know and Lucas Lucas sold picks are deceived jobs and and last year was, you know working with these people at Pixar. It was basically a computer company not a film company and they’re like, well, maybe we can make some films with this they ended up, you know winning a short film.

Uh award an Oscar I think and um, and the Disney goes hey, wait, wait wait, we want you back and they were going to Triple his salary. They’re going to bring John back because they understood his ideas are actually good. We need good ideas right now and he turned him down and um, and so they continue to make their films and Disney came in and said, hey we like.

We want to be a part of this and they and they started helping fund, uh Toy Story and and they sort of lose control of the work. And if you’ve ever seen, you know, any of the behind-the-scenes documentary is about Pixar but picked like Toy Story recent was really really bad and nobody liked it and it was because they were losing ownership of the project and they eventually had to say, okay we have to own this.

Um, uh, you know, like we really have to. Own this process and make the story what we believe it is and uh, you know, obviously eventually Pixar, you know sold to Disney for billions of dollars, but they just kept resisting, uh, these early opportunities. Um, then you can they talk about this in the book creativity ink.

People wanted to come in and buy the company and they just kept saying no no, no and so you if you have an idea you have a story of some art that you want to share with the world understand that nobody cares more about that work. If it’s if it’s your orchids your intellectual property that you’ve traded nobody cares about it and understands it better.

I’m not opposed to you selling a book or a film or a company to the right buyer. I understand as soon as that transaction is done. You do not get to speak into that. You don’t you should plan on not making a dime off of and so what we find is starving artist in to sell their work off quickly want this you want this movie script you my services you want this you want that.

There you go. You create something and then you sell it and you make a quick um, you know, you get. Payback and they go and you know, maybe they pay you five pounds for this to go make hundreds of thousands of dollars off of that and you get mad about you shouldn’t be mad about it like you understood you were giving up your rights to that but also understand that when out too soon you don’t get influence.

Anymore and uh, this is what really drove Lassiter is was yet, you know, like it wasn’t a money you could have made more money Disney. It was the idea that he was in control of the work and jobs gave him so much creative control and he really helped build Pixar into what is today, you know, the storytelling.

Um, Powerhouse it is so much when Disney acquired them. They said we have to tell the stories like we still have to maintain this and they did so yeah, I mean that’s the idea and eventually, you know, it might make sense for you to sell your creative Empire or your idea to somebody else. Uh, but what starving artist as they often do that too soon.

Where’s thriving artist weight and they’re holding out for two things one. They want to make sure that um, They really develop this idea as much as they possibly can into what it is. George Lucas is a great example of this where. Um it got to the point where he couldn’t make Star Wars any better.

Like I I feel like I can see that, you know, without being too biased, you know, it got to the point where his retention of ownership of Star Wars was hurting the Star Wars story. And so it makes sense to sell out when it’s for a lot of money in his was you know, whatever that was billions of dollars and.

And the person that you’re selling it to the company that you’re selling it to they can make it better. They can reach more people. They can take your vision and see it through in a better way. And so I’m not opposed to quote unquote selling out. I am opposed to selling out too soon and musicians artists writers filmmakers often do this too soon, and they they regret it and those who are making a living off of their art really resist the temptation to give away their intellectual property to quickly now do know the Shawshank.

Story, I don’t know that story. So uh Frank Darabont, um, who’s the writer of that of the script was shopping it around town and obviously everybody who read it was like, oh my God. This is an amazing script, uh, and they were offering him. Hi seven figures. And uh, and he was starting he TV writer.

Basically he was doing TV work. He had not really done anything of any anything in the film industry and in feature films yet and when he um, when the when he said look, uh, I’ll sell it to you, but I need to direct. And everyone’s like no. No, you’ve never directed. You not gonna do it interesting and he decided to sell his script for $250,000 which in the grand scope is a lot of money but not when you’re being offered High seven figures.

Yeah. He’s like I want to direct and career and that launched him. And he was smart enough to know he didn’t want to sell out his script because at that might have been it he might have not gotten a shot. That would have been no Green Mile that would have been the possibly have been a Walking Dead, you know, because he’s the one that helped create Walking Dead and created what it is today all of that based on that one decision.

Hey, I don’t I I need to direct and that’s a great example of holding to your guns. So, you know, I’ve made good decisions about this sold off, you know books and pieces of intellectual property for pennies and you know been frustrated afterwards and I don’t judge anybody’s decisions, you know, in terms of what you need to do to take care of yourself or your family, but I just think it’s worth noting that the people who have uh, created a body of work for Lifetime have typically made a habit of not.

Selling out too quickly. There’s that story. I don’t know if you know the story Alex about um, Marlon Brando where um, uh, what is it called? We’re like an actor gets points like Cher. Yeah back in points. He get back at girls points or points. God forbid, but gross points generally our back-end points.

Yeah, so he based he was in debt, right? And he basically like $100,000 in debt or something and he sold all of his points to who have Francis Ford Coppola, I guess uh sold all of his points and so they could pay off this debt and you know, then in this for The Godfather and then obviously it goes on to be very successful film, uh arguably by some of the best, you know best film ever.

Um, and those points would have been worth like. You know fifty or hundred million dollars today, right? Yeah, absolutely and and well he did. All right because he got 7 million for Superman for 10 minutes of work. So I think he did all right at the end of the day he did. Okay. It’s just an example of when for example when you’re not managing your money.

Well, you can make a short-term decision where you’re like, I just need this money right now without thinking long-term. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Um, I’m going to ask you a few questions. I ask all of my guests Jeff. What advice would you give a filmmaker specifically wanting to break into the business today?

Obviously, I don’t know a lot about but it’s from coming from an artist and point. Sure. Yeah, I think I mean, I wish every creative person would do this one thing and I and I and I find that in any industry and you can speak to this better than I can Alex. Um, there is any creative industry there is.

Um Purity where which is not good like where your art is really precious and I think I would imagine this is true with filmmaker music certainly true with um writing where your The Narrative that’s going on in your head is 50 years old or 30 years old where you’re going. Well Marlon Brando never had to do this.

Oh God like that. It’s a different world not even taught you talk about JK Rowling Stephen King. I mean, these are people who you know there. You know, uh started their careers pre-internet, so it’s just a different world. And um, I think marketing is one of those things that so many creatives struggle with how am I going to do that?

I can’t do that. And I I think the practice in public is the number one habit that I see thriving creative professionals take like that’s what they’re doing. So I think it very practical thing that you can do is find a way to share one piece of your work in public. Single day and so that could like I mentioned, you know, I doing a short like Instagram mini movie right every single day.

Just to say these are my chops and it doesn’t it doesn’t have to be mass media doesn’t have to be um, you know billboard in Times Square. But the point is you need to be practicing every day obviously and you need to be sharing your work showing your work in public so that other people can find you Austin kleon says before people can find you you have to be findable so challenges do one thing every day that you can share, you know on the Internet or in some public place where people can.

Actually look upon your work and when they do or when you meet people and point them to your website or your Instagram or Facebook or whatever challenge you’re using. They don’t just see want like one. Video, they don’t see one about page. They see a body of work. And so when people find you they realize that you’re taking this very seriously, that’s another thing.

I was another piece of advice. I think you could you could I think I can grab from that statement is that crate is much as you can and constantly be making work and not just stick around with I’m gonna spend five years on this one movie. Unless you’re James Cameron, but he already has a body of work.

Uh, but uh, but generally speaking just do as much work as you can so you could be lumped become prolific and when someone does notice you which they will they’ll go. Oh look they’ve got five features six features under their belt or they’ve written 20 screenplays or something along those lines.

Would you agree? Yeah, totally because first of all, you’re not that good when you start and so you want to get better faster, uh, and II, you know, when people do still upon your work, they realize you’re not just a one-hit wonder or a hack or a beginner and if nothing else producing a body of work demonstrates a strong work ethic I’m willing to do a bunch of stuff.

Uh, you know, no matter what. Short amount of time which I I think communicates more than just I got lucky ones or I’m hard to work with her Prima Donna or whatever. And so yeah, I love that. See it’s great idea now. Can you tell me a book besides yours, of course that had the biggest impact on your life or career?

I’m trying to think of like a an artist book. Um, I mean like I I remember a friend of mine who’s a musician recommending this business book to me thinking Crow Rich, um, which I was like, you know, I don’t know, you know as a creative person. I was like, I don’t know about that, but this is a musician who is a no-name.

Guy and he was making millions of dollars a year just by following a lot of the principles we talked about we’ve been talkin about owning his work being smart, like doing things that nobody else was doing instead of you know, being one more person vying for the big tour, you know, the big the big deal or whatever.

It’s just read it, you know, and I read it and it really did change the way I think and uh, I love the quote at the beginning of the book by Napoleon Hill where he says thoughts are things and I think that’s really true. So the things that you think about have a way of coming true and I certainly tried articulate that and real artist Don’t Starve.

So if you think you’re starving artist, if you think you’re going to starve and you’re like nobody will care about this and that’s probably going to come true. And if instead you go, I don’t have to start I can find a way like this work has value and I’m going to find a way to uh, make this valuable to other people that ends up coming true to so.

Yeah, I reluctantly was like, okay. I read this book and I said yeah, this makes sense. It’s an amazing book. It’s one of my top, uh top 10 PS great question. Now one lesson took you to longest to learn whether in the film business or in life. I think I think the lesson is life is not fair. Yeah and.

And I mean like today right? I’m dropping my kids off at school and um, you know, there’s traffic right and we left early and I don’t know, you know, like nobody told me as a parent that. You basically go back to school with your kid, right like homeworks not just his responsibility. It’s my responsibility to remind him and make sure he has all this stuff and the morning and like my life got a lot more stressful when we sent her son to kindergarten and he goes to the school where if he’s late.

You’ve got a they locked the door and you’ve got to go to the office and I feel like I’m 12 again. You know, why are you late? It was the traffic life is not fair. Um, so that’s that’s the lesson that I’ve learned but I’ve also learned that it doesn’t matter like the fact that life is unfair. First of all, it’s unfair to all of us, you know, there is a little bit of equilibrium there.

Um, But uh the fact that it’s unfair doesn’t excuse you from your responsibilities and the work that you have to do and as a writer I spent years going that’s not fair. I’m better than them. They got lucky. They’re just talented, you know, whatever and an event. I was just like so so I just kind of like sit here.

And excuse myself from the work that I’m supposed to do because it’s harder for me or at least it feels that way than it is for somebody else and um, it was around this time that I sort of adopted this little adage that I tell myself now, uh, which is okay, like maybe some people get lucky and some people are talented which means like they’re lazy because I can just do without even trying which is frustrating also not fair and I said, yeah, but what can you do and I told myself you can out.

Last the lucky and you can outwork the lazy and so anytime I feel frustrated at lifeson justices and. What can I do? Well, I can outwork that I could just work harder than that person. I could do that. I mean you have to be that smart to do that and that person over there who’s like killing it and work has worked half as long as I haven’t tried half as hard not just Outlast them.

Maybe I’ll just keep going after they get bored and you know, it helps that’s a great great lessons honestly and last question. What are the three? What are your three of your favorite films of all time The Godfather Part 1. And I have this debate like between um Godfather part one and part two.

Um, I was like, I think two is better and then I went back I went back and watched one. I was like. No, because like to doesn’t exist without one some pretty yes, it’s just gone father. Okay, I got father part 1, um, Empire Strikes Back and Inception. I love that movie. I think it’s a great movie Inception is a great movie.

I’m big Nolan fan. So anything he does is amazing and Jeff where can people find your work online and and where they can find you on social media. Yeah, thanks Alex’s great conversation. You can find me at my blog my website goings writer. This is my last name GOI writer going to come and you know, I’m on all the social medias and you could put all that information at my blog awesome Jeff.

Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge, uh with the um in your in your message of Hope for all starving artist and starving filmmakers out there that you don’t have to be starving and there is a way out. Yeah, that’s right. I love conversation. And um, yeah, I mean, I think the big takeaway is being a serving artist today is a choice.

So I hope you don’t choose because the world does need your work long as you’re willing to get out of your own way and do that work. I hope this episode has inspired you guys to know that you don’t have to be a starving artist that you don’t have to just do your art on the side or this that you can turn it into a business you can make.

Living doing your art and in all honesty. It is your responsibility to do your art because this world more than ever needs your voice needs your art. Whatever that art might be whether it is directing feature films. If it’s being a costume designer production designer cinematographer a screenwriter any aspect of the film industry, but anybody listening to this that’s not in the film industry, whatever art you are creating.

This world needs it. Can turn it into something that makes you a living I’ve been able to do it and I know you can too. If you want links to anything we talked about including all of Jeff’s books head over to indie film the show notes and a quick update on the new course that we just released in the film producing master class with Suzanne Lyons is selling like crazy.

I cannot believe how many tribe members signed up for the early bird special and how many sales just keep happening even after the early bird special was over. It is amazing. I’m so glad you guys are. It and enjoying it it is again the best course that I’ve ever put out for indie film hustle. And for the tribe, you definitely got to check it out.

If you have not yet head over to producing masterclass and check it out. And as always keep that house of going keep that dream alive, and I’ll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the indie film hustle podcast at indie film hustle.