IFH 791: Beyond the Script: Gordy Hoffman’s Guide to Emotional Storytelling

Alex Ferrari 1:52
Today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:55
My next guest is a screenwriter and director his film Love Liza won the Waldo salt screening board at the 2002 Sundance Film Festival. His other film dog bowl premiered at the 2015 Sundance Film Festival. We're going to talk all about Paul Thomas Anderson, and we're going to talk a little about phantom thread. We're going to talk about all that good stuff, because this guest has, you know, been down the road a couple of times. And we're also going to talk about, obviously, the blue cat screenwriting competition, which some deadlines are coming up. But I've also linked to those in the show notes. And also, all the movies we talk about are in the show notes again davebullis.com Just remember that. So in case you need it for later. But with guest, Gordy Hoffman. You know, Gordy, I've actually, you know, followed you for a while. I've actually entered the blue cat a few times. I've seen a few webinars. You know, not only is Blue Cat awesome, but but Gordy, you're kind of like, the the the guy that you want to learn writing from, because you're so, like, good natured, and you just like, have that attitude. You know what I mean, like you, you just seem like you, you not only know what you're doing, but But you know what I mean, like, it's that, that you're that you have the personality that sort of comes through if you know what I'm trying to say.

Gordy Hoffman 3:32
Well, you know, well, thank you. That's that's very sweet to say. And, you know, I learned probably a long time ago that, you know when I was directing and when I got into teaching, that, you know, being loving and kind and courteous when you're talking to somebody about their stuff and trying to be makes them more receptive. I mean, if you ultimately want to help people and serve them and give them some information and help them with their writing. You want them to be able to listen and hear what you're saying. And, you know, people get, you know, no one wants to be sort of get negative or sort of shaming or anything or like, be denigrated or discouraged. In a way. It's just, it shuts people down and they they're not going to produce. Actors getting nervous, crew gets angry, resentful. They're not going to be but if you're kind of courteous and respectful when you're making a film and and when you're talking to people about their work, it's difficult sometimes to navigate that, but it's something that we stress with our readers often, you know, we just say, you know, you got to be, you are talking to the reader when you're set, you know, writing up the notes and and no one, you know, it's just natural. It's just no one wants to. People tend to shut down. They're not going to listen. They're not going to hear the notes, if, if they're delivered in a way. So over time, I think, um. And, you know, I'm just not, you know, it's not really, I guess, you know, there's probably some higher ethical reasons why you should be good to nice to people. But it's also, it's also very practical. You know, it's also, it's also practical, if you want to actually tell a better story, then it's good to collaborate and work with writers and work with your fellow collaborators in a way that fosters that spirit, so that they're relaxed and they feel entitled in the work and excited. So yeah, don't crush people's spirits. Dave, crush their dreams. You know? It's just like, oh, it stays with you for years, you know? I mean, it's like, it's not a good look. So, yeah, so I think it's just, I think all anybody who likes to teach and has been teaching a while kind of learns that it's a it's a much more effective way to help a student, and that's what you want to do when you're teaching.

Dave Bullis 6:05
In your journey, Gordy, you know, through, through going to all these different, you know, places like, you know, like Sundance, and going on to, you know, doing these webinars. And, I mean, I'm sure you've met a ton of, ton of people, you know, and so, you know, having done all that, have you met screenwriting teachers who are, who are like that, who just give, like, these very, like, paint, like these notes that are just like, direct and to the point and very, maybe even, yeah,

Gordy Hoffman 6:31
I've heard, I've heard, yeah, I've heard of students going, coming back and being like, oh, like you're saying, you know? And I think some people just feel like, that's, I mean, some people think that that, and, you know, if, and I think some people maybe like that, I don't know they like the all I need to be, I need someone to be tough on me, you know, and I guess that. But I've had a lot of good writers, talented people, people that are back have pretty good back phones, you know, people just fold, you know when they do that? But yeah, absolutely, there's people that, because it's, you know what? It's easier to yell. I mean, it's easier to just freak out on people. You know what? I mean, the work of being like a teacher and although, and the work of giving somebody effective notes that's struggling and there's with her story, the work of being a respected director, an effective director, is, is, is being, is kind of being able to react with grace and be able to be respectful. It's so easy to be a jerk, you know, I mean to just be like, why? What were you? You know, like, whatever it is. And but, you know, the thing is, I'm a writer, you know, and I'm and I'm a filmmaker myself. And I think that's, that's why blue cat, I think, has flourished the way it has and grown the way it has and, and I think that's what makes me an effective teacher as well. Because I'm like, would I want to hear this? How would I want to hear notes. How would I want to hear this? Like, what would I what do I think would be fair and it, you know, that having that perspective really helps. And I think some, maybe some teachers aren't, were never really writers, or they haven't been writing for a long time, and they maybe it helps them slip. But most teachers, you know, I think a lot of really effective teachers, you know, approach it with a pretty even keel. I don't think you really hear a bunch of, you know, hear too much about lunatic people. I just don't think that. I don't think that screamers really. I mean, writing is such a personal action, you know, it's a very vulnerable thing, all creative, artistic pursuits. You know, it's like you're really opening yourself up. You know, your instrument is your personal life. And you know, it can get a little hairy when somebody's coming after the writing, because it feels like they're coming after you so yes, and you only know that, I think, if you experience the process of writing yourself, and you know how personal it is. So, yeah,

Dave Bullis 9:10
Yeah, you know, that's that thing, you know. How do you differentiate between the writing and yourself? You know, you hit the nail on the head right there. Because, you know, it's kind of like if you write a screenplay or a short story, and you turn it in, and the and the the judges or the script consultant or whomever, or, you know, the writers group doesn't like it, and so you feel like, I've been there before. I feel like it's an assault on me, you know. And you're like, How dare you, yeah, you know. And then you start,

Gordy Hoffman 9:38
Yeah, and that's, and that's, a good it's a good professional. It's good exercise and professionalism to be like, you know, this is not about you, and sometimes things are very personal, and, you know, feels like, oh God, you know. And somebody's like, I think that character is certain way, and you thought differently, and that might reflect on your values.

And it might reflect on your ethical, you know, core, you know, and that can it starts to feel like you're kind of getting it's kind of like, oh, you know, you you think I'm a creep, or you think I'm angry, or you think I'm like, you know, whatever, or you think I condone this, or, you know, whatever. And, but professionals, I think you know, you think it's good. We all fall into that. And I think it's always good for me to remember that you know, it's like, you know, this is a story. You know you're creating something. You're going to create more. You know you're gonna have a body of work. It's not you, it's not your life. It's you know, and everything is so personal, the reactions from people, I mean, people are so spot, get so wound up with feedback sometimes. And it's like, haven't you ever gone to a movie with like people that you love, like your family or your best friends or your spouses or your partners or whoever. And you walk out and one person goes, I hated that, and the other person goes, God, I loved it, you know. And no one goes, Oh, my God, we need to move out, you know. Or, you know, there's no, it's, there's no big Fallout, you know, it's sort of like, okay, yeah, you like Star Wars, I didn't or whatever, and, or you like shape of water, and I didn't or something, and that's it. Then you just go home and get dinner and you just gotta go on. But like, when people have a reader or a writer's group or a manager pass or producer never get back to you. It's like, it's like, oh, you know, it's so devastating. It's like, you know, they're just people, and it's just another reaction. And sometimes you might have expectations about, you know, wanting a reaction from, like, say, a contest or from a producer or from a colleague. You want that reaction to be, you know, the you may have expectations, but that's that's also something that we, you know, as professionals, we want to keep developing, you know, a healthy sense of expectations and keep things in check and know that it's not the end of the world if something doesn't. Because you can all as a writer, writers always, you know, there's always another movie. There's always another great idea. I mean, I'm, you know, I get so worked up, and then, you know, and then, you know, I come across another thing. It's so incredible. And I go, and I'm so excited about the idea of writing it, and I go, you know, and it makes you free of everything else you know. So lower your expectations and realize everything is, you know, everything's coming from a personal their own personal place. And just remember that. You know how many times you've gone to the theater and walked out with divided reactions, and it's so perplexing. Sometimes you're like, What do you mean? You didn't like that, you know? And it's like, no, I didn't. And it's like, okay, you know. And it's just, that's what makes everything kind of fun, you know. That's what makes the storytelling, you know, interesting, I think,

Dave Bullis 13:10
Yeah, you know. It reminds me that episode of Seinfeld where Mr. Peterman, he didn't like he said he went, he took Elaine to see The English Patient, and she hated it, and he actually fired her. It's so funny because, you know, not only does that speak of character within Seinfeld, but it's also, I mean, you know, that's comedy because it's the ordinary. It's brought up to the extraordinary because it's so ludicrous that a boss would fire an employee because he did. She didn't like right movie is him,

Gordy Hoffman 13:42
Right and that, but that's how passionate we are. That's how emotional we are about our decisions and our reactions. But as a writer, you know, it's, it's like, yeah. And a lot of people get, get really hung up on, you know, and, you know, Blue Cat gives out feedback and, you know, and there's gonna always be somebody who's gonna be like this person you know, didn't, you know? And I'm like, Well, you know that's it's going to happen. You know, it's not a perfect process. You know, it's not math, it's not two plus two equals four. It's just not, we're not doing that now when, like, some people watch call me by your name and have one reaction, and other people, I talked to a guy last night who walked out, you know, he just thought it was too small. And other people think it's a masterpiece, you know, so, and both of everybody's right. I mean, you know, love lies. It was a movie I wrote. It came out a long time ago. It was reviewed in the, you know, and people, some of you know, it came out in theater, so it was reviewed by the press and and, you know, I realized then it was like, the people that just thought it wasn't even worthy of a short, they just thought it was crap, you know, I'd be like, Oh my God, you know. And then, and, but then the people were like, Oh, this is like, a this is a little, this is genius. And I realized it's like, they're both sort of wrong and right. You know what I mean? Like, I can't go to the genius people. Old people that think it was a mass being well, you're right. That's a good view. You know what? You're talking about, the person who doesn't like it. It's like, no, they're both, right, you know, they're both, like, somebody who likes something really, like, oh my god, this is incredible. They're as crazy as the person that says something's horrible. You know what? I mean? They're just, it's just, it's, you know, it's all emotional response and personal history, and, you know, it's, it's, but, I mean, I hope you know, if anything, it's like, I, I always, I'm glad. I think it when people, when writers, can, like, really look past that, because it really frees you up, you know, you realize it's like, it keeps you going. And I think it gets you back to focusing on developing a better story, instead of just focusing on reactions and all that stuff. So,

Dave Bullis 15:44
Yeah, and you hit the nail on the head too, Gordy, when you said about, you know, this whole idea of story, because I think too many times when you I mean, there's 10,000 screenwriting books out there, and the problem is, you start to read some of these, and it's all about a formula, you know what? I mean, it's, it's the precise, you know? And it is, like you said, it's not math. But some of those books, though, they treat it as such, where it's like, on page, this on page that this has to happen, and blah, blah, blah, blah, and then you start to get just lost in this. And that's why, I think, I mean, you, you must see a lot where you're kind of like this feels like they're not really writing a story, but they're trying to solve, like, like a math problem.

Gordy Hoffman 16:26
Absolutely. I mean, you know, there was a really, there was a period of time where people were saved the cat was sort of, you know, I mean, with all credits to save the cat, and and, and the principles that the really healthy story principles that it, that it affirms and everything. And it was a period where it was like, you know, maybe 10 years ago, where it was like, everybody was like, you know, really ablaze with that. And people were using it left and right and and scripts, some of the scripts were just incoherent because they were just, they weren't even they would they had lost offense. They weren't even connected to their own story, intuitive, sort of Compass inside. And so they were like, well, this is what the character supposed to do on this page. And it was like, but then when you read it, be like, I don't even know what's going on, you know, and the emotional thing wasn't happening, and everything else. So, yeah, you know, you kind of look for you can, you know, the books are great. And if you get stuff that inspires you, incredible. If you get something that makes sense, it's great. A teacher, an analyst, a consultant. You know, it could be the guy, some guy you meet at Starbucks, who says, oh, I want to read your script. And some the barista, you know, anybody wants to, you know, I'll read it, you know. And then they go, I just didn't think, I mean, I've gotten notes from everywhere, you know what I mean? And it just doesn't. There's no, there's no bad source of notes. It's just the ones that actually help you move forward. And know that, but yeah, you have to strike a balance between what, the what formulas, what kind of, this is what this is the third act, you know, whatever, and knowing that the only rule of storytelling is emotional investment and getting an audience to care. I mean, you know, I mean, good example, call me by your name. I mean, I don't know what formula that followed, or like act structure, or anything like that. I don't know. I don't know where a phantom thread, you know, you can't, I don't know what I mean. I mean I I'd have to probably watch it again or a couple more times to see but I'm sure that Paul Thomas Anderson did not, you know, was not even thinking about that. He was just telling an emotional story, creating characters that he thought an audience would be interested in and invested in emotionally. And that is what drives that. That's what drives effective storytelling. That's what's that's what drives classic movies making, and that's what, that's what drives profit in the marketplace, is emotion. I mean, Wonder Woman was Wonder Woman. Because people loved Wonder Woman, and they were so gratified by her performance, who she was, we were able to connect with her. Was like, oh, you know. And it's, you know, and so this, this happens, whereas, like, you know, the thing with Star Wars, it's like there was some mixed reactions out there, we can all kind of safely say. And some people were like, I am not. And basically boiled down to, I am not feeling Luke Skywalker, I do not. I'm like, I've lost my connection with Luke Skywalker. That's really what happened. It's like, it's like they did something else with Luke and made some choices about the story, and that's what happened. You can't I don't think anyone can deny that there was an emotional breakdown with some of the audience because of who they knew Luke Skywalker could be. So anyway, so it's all emotional investment, and so as long as we can remember. At when we're when we're writing, I mean, just just, you know, make a balance between you can read stuff inspired. Get you thinking about things. Get you thinking about conflict and tone and and things like this. You know, you get it's good to think about these things and study them and look at other movies and how they function every now. But don't forget that eight year old child that knew how to tell a story. You know what I mean? You can, you can. You can go to a 10 year old and go what happened after school today, and they'll tell you a story. They'll know what a beginning, middle and end it. They know what the inciting incident is. They know what the payoff is. They know what the ending is, no and they know what that is. It's in their bloodstream. It's in their DNA. And so we go, we want to strike a balance between what we learn and what we already know, you know.

Dave Bullis 21:00
Yeah, you know. And somebody once told me about kids storytellers, that one of the main reason that they're, they actually become such good storytellers, is, is because they, they're not afraid to fail, and they're, you know, they're not really concerned about that. And they just, sort of, they just go in full force of that story and, and it's not until you start, you know, going through, you know, your your young adult life, or what have you, you start to go, oh my god, the peer pressure. Oh my god. What if I look, don't, you know, what if somebody thinks I'm an idiot? What if this isn't good? I suck. Then if this sucks, you know what I mean,

Gordy Hoffman 21:32
Right, right. There is definitely a, definitely an open, open feeling about what they're doing and everything else, absolutely

Dave Bullis 21:42
And by the way, I know you mentioned Paul Thomas Anderson. You know, I actually saw your AMA on Reddit, Gordy, and I laughed when you when somebody asked, Are you the Gordy that Paul Thomas Anderson thanked at the end of the master and you just responded back with the the Heisenberg meme of your damn right?

Gordy Hoffman 22:03
Yeah, I, you know, it's funny as it was. I remember that, I think I was, I had an intern in the office, and he was like, no, let me get this Any, any, and I was like, okay, just put it up there. You know, he was, he thought that was funny, or somebody was, somebody in our office. Was like, yeah, he kind of grabbed that meme and put that up there. Yeah, I was, I was, I looked at the master a little bit along the way the script. And, you know, I'm for obviously, you know, Paul is very close to my brother, and they were, like, best friends and like, literally, brothers in their own right, you know. And so we're very, been very close to Paul for for 20, you know, over 20 years. I mean, I, you know, I mean, I saw, you know, the Boogie Nights. I mean, my brother was telling me about Boogie night. I gave, I gave my brother love wise. And the fall of 96 and that was when he was shooting Boogie Nights. And he was telling me about this movie that he was making about the porn industry, you know. So it's, I've known now, Paul, he's amazing. He's so he really is our best. He's really the best we have, you know, in America. I mean, he's just, he's like, a Kubrick level genius, and he's gonna be, I mean, the best is yet to come. I mean, he's gonna phantom thread totally says that, you know, he's going to different play, he's going to be, he's going to everything is going to he's going to make so many great movies. And then, you know, the net second half of his life, it's really exciting. But, yeah, I'm very honored. And he's always been very, such a, such a humble he's always very respectful of me, and, you know, he's always been respectful of me, and he always, he likes my judgment, and he's just a great guy, you know, I mean, he's a wonderful man too. It's good guy.

Dave Bullis 23:51
So, you know, as we were talking about, you know, directors and giving notes and stuff like that. So, you know, in your experiences, in working with him, you know, does he sort of have that sort of same mentality where, you know, it's, it's not so much of, hey, listen to me, because I'm the director, but it's more of like he knows how to collaborate the, you know, the right way. Because I've had people on here who've worked with, like Quentin Tarantino, and that's one of the things they say was his strengths was, was that, you know, he would get into this groove, and they always knew when he liked stuff, because he would start, you know, laughing and stuff like that, and and, you know, they knew his vibe is this, Paul Thomas,

Gordy Hoffman 24:27
I've not been on the set with Paul, so I can't really speak to him as a director and like what that is. But, I mean, you know, so I just, all I can say is, from my vantage point, you know, he obviously knows how to cast. He knows how to direct an ensemble of actors and bring them together in the scene. You know, he's very, very gifted. I mean, it's he does so many things. Well, people just don't understand that he, you know, he's writing on a certain level that is highly original. And authentic, emotionally authentic and his he delivers high conflict. He never he doesn't run from emotional, emotional beats and high, highly intense emotional situations. You know, he knows how to cast. He has an incredible he has a Shakespearean sense of comedy, and how he balances comedy and his stories. So, I mean, you know, you're a limit. I mean, just in what I just said, You're eliminating, like several major directors that are in this country, around the world, that can't do all of those things. They do not do all of those things. They can't, they can't do all that. You just go on. You're not even talking about, you know, where he puts the camera. You're not even, you're not even talking about how he employs score and sound. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's off the charts. So it's like, he has so much of that covered. He's literally, like, I mean to me, I mean, I, you know, obviously, you know, I might buy it, whatever. But the fact is, is that it's like, I mean, anyone who knows anything, I think probably would agree with me, but he is one of our he is, he is the master. I mean, he is one of the greats, you know, and by the time it's all done, I mean, he's because he's going to keep going, he's a young man, and he's going to keep going, and he's, he's got all his faculties and Phantom thread was such a, such a step forward. I thought in so many images of such a mature there was something so mature about the movie, and it was a real, real achievement. And, you know, and obviously the academy, you know, agrees, because they, they nominate, not only nominated the movie Best Picture, but also nominated him for directing and and I think that that was well deserved. They know it. They know that it was, it was it was truly, it was truly an achievement and really, really wonderful to see. So,

Dave Bullis 27:00
You know, Gordy, I that's, that's actually one of the movies I want to see this year. I haven't actually been, you know, either it wasn't playing at the time I went, or I haven't been able to sort of schedule time to go.

Gordy Hoffman 27:12
It just came out. I mean, it just came out. I mean, it just came out like, I mean, in LA, it's been out since the end of the year, end of 2017 but it just was released, I think last weekend, a lot of places, so a lot of people have not caught up to that one yet. So, you know, but, so, yeah, so, but everyone will get a chance to take it in. But I encourage every, all writers to to look at that, you know, to go, to go to that movie and and think about what, what is successful, and what is, what is effective about the story telling in the movie, and take it in, and I think you'll, you know, it's a good, it's a really great movie for screenwriters.

Dave Bullis 27:56
You know, that was my mistake. I actually thought it came out like end of November, beginning in December last year, so, but, no, it didn't, yeah, no, I was just gonna say, I, sometimes I get, like, release dates all mixed up, you know, and, but, yeah, but, but, you know, you made a good point. I want to, I want to actually ask about is, you know, when you're a screenwriter, you know, some of the, you know, the the ideas of becoming a better screenwriter are, you know, you have to read a lot of screenplays, and obviously you have to go to different movies. Do you feel that there's ever like an advantage of one over the other? Because I, one time, went to a screenwriting seminar and the person said, You can't judge a you can't watch a movie and try to dissect it that way, because you don't know what the script even look like, you know, they actors could be improvising, you know, this scene could blah, blah, blah, and, and I wanted to ask you, what do you think of that advice?

Gordy Hoffman 28:50
Well, I mean, the fact is, is that, you know, that sounds, I mean, it sounds like a fairly reasonable point. But the fact is, this screenplay is, is it's, it's part of making the film. And I think that ultimately, because there's a lot of scripts that you know, so you're so you can't judge the script Well, if the scripts, you know, it doesn't matter. In the end, we need our audience. We're not writing scripts, you know, we're right. We're trying to make a movie, you know. So, yeah, so, I mean, I think ultimately, it's, it's yeah, that sounds like, Okay, well, you can't judge the movie based off of this. Are you saying you can't judge the screenplay based off of the movie that we've just seen?

Dave Bullis 29:39
Yeah, that that, that's what the they were saying was, because,

Gordy Hoffman 29:42
Okay, I think generally, I think generally, I mean, I think I'm sure there's exceptions, or people, you know, drop the ball, or the money doesn't happen, or there's bad performances, or, you know, whatever. There's some, probably a number of reasons, but I think it generally, You know, strong writing, you know, tends to reflect in a strong movie. It's, it's very difficult to make a great movie from a mediocre script. It's just, you know, it's just difficult. They are very much correlated. I don't think there's a lot of variance there. And, yeah, so interesting question, though, I've never heard that.

Dave Bullis 30:34
Yeah, that's why I always like going in and, you know, just interviewing people like you Gordie, just this, you know, people out there in the field. And, you know, that's why I want to do this podcast, because they get to hear all these different different takes on different things, you know what I mean? And you get to share knowledge, because I think that's what technology has done. I mean, honestly, you know, once I started it's kind of, I kind of had my aha moment, you know, with all this technology and the way media is the way it is now, you know, that's, that's what it is. It's sharing knowledge and communicating with each other, just a lot faster and on a much now it's on a global scale, because I don't know if there's anybody on this planet anymore that you can't talk to if you want to, right? But, but yeah. And of course, we've seen with movies, you know. Now it's, you know, you know, you put them on Netflix, Hulu, all that good stuff, and then you can, you know, that is distribution, but, but I wanted to get back to you Gordon, just talking about, you know, your career and everything you know, you've actually, you know, directed a few movies. You've written a few movies. So I just actually wanted to ask you about some of those, and some of your experiences actually making those. So, you know, your, your first movie as you, as you mentioned earlier, was love Liza. So, you know, I wanted to ask, you know, where was the impetus for writing that screenplay, and how did you go about being able to direct that movie?

Gordy Hoffman 31:49
I didn't direct it. Todd directed it. Yeah, I wrote it. And I was, I was a cab driver in Chicago, and I saw somebody near a gas pump, and I was like, I was like, is that person sniffing the gas? And I didn't really see them sniffing it, but I was like, and I was in my cab, and I wrote that down an index card. I used to have all these blank index cards with me. I wonder where those are. I like, I wish I could find them. I wonder where they headed up. But I, you know, I had, like, yeah, I've got, like, to find some of that stuff. Anyways, yeah, I wrote down a man starts hopping gas and and, you know, and then that was the germ of it, where I was like, Well, why would he start doing that? It's just like, well, what if his wife committed suicide? And then I started to write that, and then he finds a note, and I found that I didn't plan on that he finds the note, and the note ended up driving the movie. But that's where love lies. It came from.

Dave Bullis 32:48
So, you know, sometimes when I find pieces of material that I've like written on an index card or back of a receipt or something, I'll look at it Gordy and I go, What the hell was I trying to say?

Gordy Hoffman 32:59
Yeah, yeah. That doesn't happen to be too much anymore. But sometimes, yeah, I'm like, I'll look back on something that I'll write down a little idea file. Usually I get, I get the idea, and I put it on, like a little document, and I just, you know, I have so many of them and but I usually I know myself that I better explain it so that I can look back on it and know exactly what it is. Because if I just write down macaroni and cheese, it's like, I'm like, What the Oh, is that idea? You know, you gotta like, let's like, what was that? It's like, so, yeah, but I think we've all had that experience of looking back at something we jotted down and been like, okay, I guess that one's gone.

Dave Bullis 33:41
You know, I've gotten into the habit of using my phone now. I use, I use, like, Evernote to take that, oh yeah, because it helps you organize things. And also, you're not, like, carrying around tons of sheets of paper, yeah,

Gordy Hoffman 33:55
yeah, yeah. That's, that's electronic, you know, that's the technology that we have now is that, yeah, you don't really have index cards anymore. You just, I just, usually just write an email to myself, send it to myself, and then it ends up in my little movie folder, idea list for the year, and then, and I'm backing it up every couple days, the whole computer. So I got a great Jae, have everything. So it's all, it's all different from back in the days, 20 years ago, when I came up with the idea for love Liza

Dave Bullis 34:27
I find it interesting too, Gordy, you were, you were a cab driver in Chicago, and you were just, you know, I guess in between fairs, you were just, you know, on index cards. You were just sort of outlining or brainstorming ideas that you could put into a screenplay.

Gordy Hoffman 34:40
Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's the, I mean, you know, I just, that was what I was doing. And I, you know, to this day, it's like, you know, I mean, you know, it's like, anywhere an idea will come up, but at that time, you know, that's what, that's what my day job was. It was a, it's a whole nother experience, you know. And I drove a cab in Chicago for three and a half years, and, and, and that was, yeah, I can still remember exactly the gas station that that happened, and, and it was just one of the random things. It was like, and, and, and I just decided to go with it, you know, it was an idea. And I, you know, I just remember that it's like, sometimes you sit there and go, Okay, what ideas should I work on? And and, you know, any idea that you pick, you're gonna make great, you know what I mean. So it's like, it's like, I'm like, don't be so worried about whether or not this is the right idea, because you're gonna work on it and it's gonna be awesome, you know what I mean. So you'll make everyone, everything work. And so it's like, it's such a and I forget that, because I'll be like, you know, like, I don't know. And it's like, even, because, if I was forced to write my worst idea, I would, I would make it great, you know what I mean? I would just be like, the one, I'd be like, Okay, I gotta write on that. And then I would lean into it, and I would start to, you know, my imagination would kick in and start to come up with ideas.

Dave Bullis 36:06
You know, Steven Pressfield once said that you could, if you can get, like, a sentence out, you can draw a whole novel just from that one sentence. You can pull just from that absolutely. And he said, absolutely. I mean, oh, I'm sorry, Gordie, go ahead. No, no, I'm sorry. I was just gonna say that he actually wrote The Legend of Bagger Vance just from that one sentence. He had, like this moment where he kind of jotted down the sentence, and then he has pulled the whole novel from that,

Gordy Hoffman 36:34
Right. I mean, you know, and that's, it's, you know, it's usually like one little idea, a few little words, you jot down, and then it's like, the ideas there and and then you're off to the races. And, but, you know, I've done that in classes too, where it's like, I have people, you know, brainstorm like, 10 ideas for scenes, and then I asked them pick the worst idea out of all the ones, and that's the one I have them write on and to show them that, basically, any anything, you can make anything work, you know, you do not have to it does not have to be the best ideas and not have to be. I mean, that's really why forward any kind of writing challenges, any kind of 48 hour film, thought that's where that comes from. It's because it for, it's what people can given, given restrictions, you know, they can still have fun and be creative and everything else,

Dave Bullis 37:32
Yeah, and again, I think it's just when you're having fun. Because I think that, I think that's a lot of things that people forget. Especially, I mean, I've been there too Gordy, where I'm like, you know, I completely forget this is supposed to be fun. And it becomes like, so deathly serious, and you start kind of doubting yourself along the way, and then it becomes a little more, a little more. And then by the end, you're like, this whole thing sucks. I gotta get rid of this whole screenplay. I gotta start all over again. And then you can it becomes a habit that you that you have to break.

Gordy Hoffman 38:00
Well, every every screenplay you know, it's like, you know, any kind of master screenwriter or filmmaker you know will tell you it's like, anything you're working on, you're gonna get to a wall, you're gonna get to a place where you're like, this is awful, and I'm bored as hell, and I want to start something else. And there's this has so many problems, and I don't know how to solve them. And this is like, taking forever, you know? I mean, it's true despair and and the thing is, now I know that, like, when I get to that place, I'm like, Okay, I'm making that way. Like, I know it's like, okay, I'm actually halfway through, you know, like, because you are always gonna hit that spot, and it's like, and you are, you never get, oh man. This is, like, a this is so awesome. You know, it's never like that. You always get to place where, like, I'm, I hate every page. I'm like, all this stuff. I'm sick of reading this thing. I'm like, you have that feeling, and it's like, in that and when you have that feeling, it's like, oh well, you're getting there, you're almost you're you're probably rounding second. Just keep going, and then suddenly it will come back, and you'll fall in love with it again, and you'll come up with new ideas. And your problem, your, you know, solve these problems, and you'll have another draft, and then you'll start, and then you'll be like, okay, and you'll own it all over again. And then you'll really have something special. But we have to fight through, you know, the boredom, the despair, you know, just the just the loathing of the script. You know, at times it comes up where you're just like, God, like, I'm so sick of looking at this and thinking about it. I think it sucks, you know, or whatever. And you know, you're like, four drafts and, you know,

Dave Bullis 39:44
Yeah, yeah. Just even in the at the outlining stages, you know, sometimes you're like, oh my god, what the hell. What the hell was I thinking? And, you know, yeah, one of the things that I've learned too over the years is just like, little tips and, or so to speak, or if you want to call them a hack. You know, that's a popular word. Now, Gordy hack, so everything's a hack. So it's one thing I've learned is, is if you to start an argument, you know, have one, you know, have one, you know, obviously, that's where conflict comes from, right? I want a, you want a, and we each have a different way of how we're gonna get it. Or maybe, you know what I mean, and then we what we both need, this thing, and that's where this conflict comes from, is that, you know, there you want something and you can't get it. I want something, I can't get it. So if you sort of, you know, starting an argument, and that's why I make little notes when I'm going back through stuff and just saying myself, this is, you know, maybe this is something that I can do better. And then, you know what Stephen King once said, If you take a draft or something, put it in your drawer for two weeks or whatever, go back to it, and that's when you can look at it again with fresh eyes.

Gordy Hoffman 40:59
Yeah, it's great how time changes things, and you can look at stuff and be like, Oh, yeah. And you could definitely, you know, there's a lot of that stuff, but yeah, that's great advice.

Dave Bullis 41:12
So, you know, Gordy, as you took love Liza, and you were able to write a full screenplay, you know, how did you go about, you know, just sort of even pitching it and, you know, getting it into the right hands to get it produced.

Gordy Hoffman 41:27
Well, you know, it was a long process, but, you know, my brother read it, and like I said, he had not started shooting Boogie Nights yet, so he wasn't a movie star or anything like that. He just young and we read it, and he loved it, you know, and I didn't, wasn't giving it to him to be like, Hey, you want to do this, but he wanted to play the guy and and that's what it is. So we attached he was a task. We got a director, we got Todd, and then we started to couple of producers, and then we started to talk to people that could add access to money, and find, you know, producers that you know could raise, raise, actually, the money to make the movie. And so it took a, you know, it didn't take that long, maybe four years from from like, the whole period of like, starting to think about it, and people looking at it, you know. And then, and then, then we found some folks and and made it, you know. And got, was able to get Kathy Bates involved and, and that was how we, we got the money. It was very low budget at the time, and, and then, you know, got into Sundance. You know, people responded at Sundance to it, and it got to Sundance. And, and then it was bought by Sony Classics, and they distributed it. So, yeah, so that was that sort of the journey. And I think it's, I mean, somebody told me it's on HBO right now. So think if you have HBO, you'll be able to watch it. And obviously it's on Amazon for rental, but it's, but Sony ended up Sony Classics, the same guys that were involved with love. Liza, are, you know, are still running Sony Classics, you know, and call me by your name is the Sony Classics acquisition that they picked up before Sundance. And, yeah, so,

Dave Bullis 43:35
You know, Gordon, you mentioned Sundance, and you mentioned, you know, call me by your name. And also, you know, with love Liza, I saw an article, and I don't know if you saw this yet, in the LA Times, that says the spec script is dead. And what they mean is, is that Hollywood only wants to make the big budget blockbuster movies, you know, based on, you know, superheroes and things like that, or or remakes of classic movies and stuff like that, you know, you know, and that the spec scripts now all go to Sundance. So if you want to make an original movie, you know, the place to debut it or show it and get it bought, etc, is Sundance. You know, I don't know if you've read that article, but do you do agree with that in today's current market for screenwriters that you know, Sundance is where, you know, independent movies really go

Gordy Hoffman 44:24
Well. I mean, Sundance is an incredible market. I mean, if you get into Sundance, I mean, all eyeballs are there for acquisitions, and you can, you know, pick up a movie that can do considerable performance at the box office, and also could win Academy Awards. So it, you know, obviously, it's an, it's a great launch pad now, you know, I mean, look, you write a great screenplay, you know, you're gonna be able to do a lot of things, you know. And that's never going to change the idea. Of, yeah, the what was happening in the 90s. The markets changed. There's the you know, how they but, you know, but the 90s were also different from the 40s, you know what I mean. So it's not like some, you know, like some evil thing has happened. It's just the market changed. Storytellers can go different places, but you obviously can, you know, if you write something special, you know, you might be able to get, you know, involved in television, and television episodic is obviously sort of the there's another golden age right now in terms of, you know, storytelling and television, but, you know, but then you can also, you know, write a get out or write a Lady Bird. Obviously, these people have access and everything. And there's certain, you know, opportunities that might been afforded credit Gerwig or whatever. But the fact is, is that, you know, three billboards, you know, these are all movies that are doing, doing well, they're going to do well, no one who is involved with making them is on, is like, wow, I wish I hadn't been involved to get out. I mean, it's like, no way. And get out was, you know, a low, lower budget. Did not have any kind of, like a Avengers type of budget, and it was. But it all goes back to the writing, you know. And it you know. So just you know, people find, you know, writers and people want to find like, oh, well, stock market, or, you know, make some you know ideas about. And the bottom line is, it's ultimately an excuse not to deal like, to not to deal with the truth The truth is, is that we have to do what we were talking about earlier. We have to fight through the boredom to despair, keep working our drafts and make them so good that it blows people away. I mean, I got my short got into Sundance two years ago, and got me a job, like a feature writing job shortly thereafter, and it was all because of the work that I put into the short. And I made the short as best I knew. I just made it best I could. And, you know, and it worked, you know, it got into Sundance, and people saw it, and it landed, you know, it led to a really nice, you know, it helped, it can help my career, and it moved everything forward. And, you know, somebody be like, Oh, well, how? You know, it didn't follow any kind of formula or anything else in terms of, I just decided to make, you know, I was like, I want to make the sword to kind of show people I can direct. And, and it ended up doing things that I did not anticipate or expect and but I, but the thing that I did plan on doing was making it as best I could. And so everybody, and I know people like, well, whatever, you know, yeah, sure, write it. Work really hard in your on your screenplays. That's really great advice. Well, you know what? That's what happened? I mean, it's like, where do you think get out any of these movies? Anything that's like, comes out of nowhere. Any you know, anything that like, it's like, interesting. Where do you think it comes from? It comes from people like, picking up, you know, opening it up, getting going with their movie, working really hard on it, continuing to take notes, continuing to push it forward. That's that stuff that's never that's that has not changed, you know? And, yeah, the idea maybe it's a good thing that, like, oh, you can't just put together a high concept. And the movie, movie, you know, the studios are so scared somebody else is going to get it, so they buy something and it's like, sort of half baked, and it's not even that great, and then you don't even get to really work on it after they bought it. I mean, you know, maybe that's not really what we want, you know, maybe we want a system that is like that is exactly like that. It's like, write, a big, sick, write, write, write, something like three billboards. Come up with something created quite create a dramatic story, write a really funny comedy, write a really scary horror movie, and just make it the best you can, you know. And I think the market's gonna find you anyways, and it might be better than if they bought your high concept, you know, thing 15 years ago or 20 years ago. And did that, you know, yeah.

Dave Bullis 49:28
And the movie you took, the Sundance, was dog bowl, correct?

Gordy Hoffman 49:33
Yeah, yeah. That was a short I had a couple years ago that I that I had there, you know, good. That's also, that's on amazon prime. So if anybody you know wants to see it, it's, it's on Amazon Prime. So if you have Amazon Prime, you can watch it for free.

Dave Bullis 49:48
And I'll make sure to link to that in the show notes as well.

Gordy Hoffman 49:51
So, yeah, yeah, just you know. So if you're like, like, I want to see if this guy knows what he's talking about, I would see his crappy short. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go check out his. Short, see if it's good. Man,

Dave Bullis 50:04
I want to check on when you go to Gordy Hoffman,

Gordy Hoffman 50:16
Yeah, you gotta, you gotta check up. You gotta watch dog bowl. Man, see like, Come on, man, check it out. It's nothing like, you know, you go and check somebody's movie like, oh, man, really? But I think people like, dog will good. It's got some nice, great actor. I mean, the star that is excellent. And I think people enjoy it, yeah,

Dave Bullis 50:35
You know, I remember, you know, I saw you were crowdfunding for that, and I just wanted to ask Gordy, you know, really quickly, you know, what were your experiences crowdfunding, that movie did, was crowdfunding what you thought it would be, or was a little harder, a little easier?

Gordy Hoffman 50:49
Oh, man, it's like, I mean, for somebody with low self esteem, I mean, it is brutal. You gotta, you gotta, like, you know, you gotta ask people for stuff. It's like, oh, I mean, it really, but you know what it was like. I was I, you know, I, you know, I stumbled onto a lot of things that you do. Well, it's, I mean, that's a whole nother podcast, but, you know, I, you know, I found my way through it. And people, I had a lot of people that wanted to help me, and I so I had a successful run, and then I hadn't finished the script yet, and I, like, I raised all this money, and I was like, Oh no. Now this has to be good. And talk about pressure. I was like, whoa. And, but then I, you know, then I kept it was great. I mean, you know, I really made you committed to, like, making a great movie. It was an excellent way to to fund the movie. It worked. I mean, man, I mean, think about all the Kickstarter campaigns, or crowdfunding campaigns you've been involved with. And, you know, unfortunately for my backers, you know, they backed a film that went to Sundance, you know. So they were like, they were like, wow, this is awesome. And then it went, then it went, you know, played all over the country, and, you know, so people were able to, most a lot of people that backed it, were able to see it in a theater, like at a festival, and, and I was at a lot of those festivals, so it was really, it was super fun, and, and, but, yeah, the Kickstarter was a lot of work. I mean, you know, it's, again, it's a whole other podcast, but, you know, there's a lot, there's a few, few tips for that. But if you ever want to do a Kickstarter, like, like, as I did two campaigns with dog ball, one the beginning, one at the end, and, yeah, I've got a raft of experience about that, and I always, always want to share that, because I think there's a lot of things that people do and they can avoid and and I think it's a great way to find the money to make a short film and show people that you can write and show people you can direct. And it, you know, I think it's Kickstarter is fantastic. But there are some things that I think people get, you know, and it usually goes ultimate, you know, in many ways, it goes back to, you know, something that bogs writers down, bogs filmmakers down is a lack of patience. I think people are impatient to launch their campaign. They're impatient to shoot. So they don't want to, like, do another draft, they don't want to write another movie that they want to get to shooting. And I think with Kickstarter, it's like, you just kind of want to launch it, you know. You're like, I want to, Okay, we're ready, you know. And then you launch it, and, you know, you don't really have your ducks in a row. You're not really ready. And then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, you know, like, I, I'm like, no one is no one. I don't really, I'm not really getting the money I thought I was gonna get, you know. And I think it goes back to having some patience and, you know, preparing and doing the right work and getting it all ready and doing exactly what you would do if you were, you know, wanting to shoot a script, you know, just taking the time to do it.

Dave Bullis 53:52
Yeah, you know, I crowdfunded way back when, in like, 2010 and I did it again in 2011 and you know, it was explaining people what crowdfunding was at that time. Because, you know, not, you know, nowadays, everybody has a Kickstarter. It seems, I think some people get a little burned out. But, I mean, when you're actually doing it, Gordy, I hear you. I was right there with you, because he feels, you know, you're like, my god, is this seeing even gonna be possible? You know, our people, you know, because everyone will tell you what I what I usually do is, and this is really quickly running out of time. I call, I call it the 1% rule. And so if you ask 100 people to donate to your crowdfunding campaign, 99 everyone, everyone's gonna tell you, Yes, but 99 won't do it, and that one person will actually go through it and give you some money. So if you use that 1% rule, that's what the that's the multiplication that you're gonna have to do to make sure that you have your movie, so your multiplication, your and your division. And then, if you figure, you have to tell that many people. So if you know that, you're gonna need, maybe, like, I don't know, $20,000 $20,000 you have to, kind of, can, you know, figure out how many people you're gonna have to talk to in order to get that done. Because, you know, everyone does what's called Chinese math, and they're like, Well, if I had 20,000 people each give me $1 I'd have them all the money. Or I need only one person to give me $20,000 you know what I mean. So it's kind of like, you know, using all that to your advantage, you have to figure out, you know, okay, these are where I could go. These are the family, these are the friends. They can give me 30% you know, it's so stuff like that that, you know, you've learned as you, as you go about doing all this stuff,

Gordy Hoffman 55:36
Yeah, yeah, it's a, you know, there's a lot of stuff going on with it. But I think it, I mean, it boils down to content, how you present, you know, your idea. And I think there's a lot of pitfalls with that. I figure people think, oh, I should make a four minute video. No one in the world has ever watched a four minute video. No one watches four minute videos ever. It's like, you know, and it's like, let me explain it. Let me bring everybody in. Let's talk for seven minutes about what the movie's maybe about. Nobody want to nobody wants to watch that, you know, it's like, so there's these things that you sort of realize it's like, you know, make a 45 second video, you know, and and like, write a little bit about it. People want to read it. They're going to find it. But basically, just give them a little video reminder. Make sure you have a ton of rewards. Make sure you have a lot of different ways for people to get in. If you only have 120 $5 award, and then the next 170 $5 you're gonna be in trouble, you know. But if you have five different $25 awards, you know, some people don't want DVDs, you know. They don't want a poster, you know. And it's like, if the only thing at that money level is a poster, then they're like, I don't want to poster, you know. But if you're like, oh, you know, I won't give you anything at $25 you get people signed up for that because they don't want anything mailed to them. So, I mean, it's like, it's amazing. I mean, all these things that I sort of learned while I was doing it,

Dave Bullis 57:00
Yeah, it's, um, it's all the things, you know, speaking of the video really quickly. I know we were almost out of time, but really, but I once had a friend of mine, his crowdfunding campaign was not going anywhere. And he said, Could you, you know, he goes, Dave, I know you've done this before. Would you mind looking at this for me? And I looked at it, and Gordy, he had him. He had like a nine or 10 minute trailer, so to speak. And it was him talking on the couch. I said, my God. I said, what could you pot? There was no like other shots, there was no like footage of the movie, or even concept art or the storyboard, or nothing, even the screenplay, for God's sakes. It was literally him on a couch talking for like 10 minutes. And I said, Dude, I know you, and I don't want to donate money to this.

Gordy Hoffman 57:45
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's really, I mean, I learned that, like, right when I was doing it, they, I mean, somebody, I was reading a blog, and somebody was like, we, we watched, we watched videos for six months, like, we just studied Kickstarter campaigns for six months. And I was like, wow, okay. And they were like, and we ended up making a movie. We ended our video ended up being two minutes, or a minute and a half or something like that. And they said, and we should have made it shorter. And I was like, when I heard that, I was like, whoa. And so my, you know, my video is 70 seconds. I think it's like a minute, and I made it like a deconstruct. I did like this. I just came up with a quick concept. I went out and shot it, and it was, it was a little bit slapped together, but it was like, I just, I was like, I'm gonna sort of do the anti Kickstarter video. And not really it was different, but people loved the video, you know. And it was like, it was people really responded to the video, because it just reminded people, like, oh, Gordy's talented. It's funny, or whatever, you know, they just said, enough. And then, you know, so. And then I just I, and I also believe I had a lot of rewards. I had creative rewards. They were funny to read, and I had a ton of different ones. You know, not so many that people couldn't make a decision, but I just had a lot of lot of ways for people to participate. And I also just remember that it's like, just remember, not everybody wants a DVD, and if you apply that principle to every war that you give, then you're going to come up with alternatives. And you'll be surprised that people will actually, they'll take the other thing, and you'll be like, Oh, they don't even want a DVD, or they don't even want to a download, or, you know, they just want to this, you know, they want to actually have that, or whatever. And, but, yeah, the videos, you know, I don't think I've ever watched a video. I mean, anything, it's over like, you literally. And everyone you go on, they're always, like, four minutes long. It's like, you kidding me? I mean, no one watches Nobody. Nobody watches that. Not even, you know, not to anyone related to them. Nobody, nobody watch. You know, it's just. Too long, man, it's too long, dude. Okay, come on, man,

Dave Bullis 1:00:10
The best crowdfunding video I've ever seen, Gordy. This guy actually pretended he was kidnapped, and the they filmed it, and he was actually, and his guys were like, well, you know, you need this money. And he would goes, well, I'll get it. And they like, who's gonna give you this money? He said, I'll go to crowd, I'll go to Kickstarter and or Indiegogo. He goes, I'll ask for money on that. And he goes, Well, they go, really, you can do that. And they that was the pitch. And it was actually, it tied into the movie as well, because it was about a kidnapping. So it was actually pretty creative. And it was the the body by Kenny G, not, not the musician, by the way, it was, but it was another, another Kenny G, but, but, but I'll link to that. Everyone in the show know us, but it was actually really, really good, good crowdfunding campaign, and he ended up making the movie, but, but, you know, Gordy, I know we're running out of time. I just in closing, Gordy, I just want to talk about Blue Cat again. I know Blue Cat, it's open for submissions right now for the 2018 season. So if you could, you know, just in the in the few minutes we have left, could you just, you know, give us a little more information about Blue Cat.

Gordy Hoffman 1:01:21
Well, everybody should know that we have really great readers, and we provide written analysis on every script that enters. So if you enter blue cat, you will get notes back on your script. Google read your entire script, and you will get notes back. So that's, that's a lot of people still don't know about that, but Blue Cat's been doing that for, you know, over 15 years now. But that's, that's, that's one of our traditions, and we do that as a part of the entry fee. We accept features shorts pilots have both hour and half hour and we are also accepting short films this year, the first time we've ever done that. So we're gonna have a screening next June of the top short films that we receive. The deadlines, February 20 and the next. I'm not sure when you're airing this, but February 20 is the is the next, is the final deadline. And you know, you can Google us and sure you guys will have the links for that. But, yeah, I mean, if you're ready to submit, you'd like to get some notes. Blue Cats, great for that. If you've got you're really, really excited about your script, please send it to us. If you're still like knowing you needed to work on it, then work on it. Send it to Nichols or Austin later on the year. And you can, you can get back to us in the future, but, you know, just use blue cat, use screenplay contests to, you know, to help you and encourage you to develop yourself and and only when that happens. You know, should you be using screenplay contests? But yeah, we're really excited. We, you know, we have a great, such a fantastic group of readers. I'm very proud of them, and and, and everyone really loves our feedback. So, you know, looking looking forward to meeting the next winner. And, you know, the next winners, and, and, yeah. So I'm looking forward to getting your scripts.

Dave Bullis 1:03:19
Yeah. And, like I said, I've entered group blue cap before, and I really like the feedback that I got. And like I said, go to you somebody I've wanted to have on here before, because you have, you have the right, you know, attitude, the personality, to run a screw any competition. You're not only the founder, but you're also, like, this brand ambassador for it. And you know, you have that right attitude for it, man, and I and, you know, that's why it's so cool having you on recording so every interview. You know what I mean? It's like, you're the type of guy, like, nothing bothers you. You know what I mean? You're just like, you just go with the flow.

Gordy Hoffman 1:03:53
Well, I appreciate that, man, you know, hopefully I can remember that sometimes when I'm at traffic out in Los Angeles, but, yeah, I look forward to being back on again. Man. It was a great talk. I could, we could probably keep going. I mean, so if you ever want me back on, I'd love to talk about anything you don't want to get into. There's a lot of stuff in the just great interview. And love having, love being on,

Dave Bullis 1:04:17
Oh, and I love to have you back on Gordy. And before we we sort of cut this off. Where can people find you out online?

Gordy Hoffman 1:04:27
Well, you can find me, if you Google, you can find my, probably my Instagram account and my, you know, I don't really tweet a lot, but I do have a Twitter account, and, you know, you can reach out to me through Blue Cat. It's pretty easy to find blue cat, and you can reach out to me there and stuff, and I'm also, you know, one of the things that we do where there's a lot of interaction is we have something called the Blue Cat Writers Group, and that's on Facebook, and it's a closed group, but pretty much anyone who wants to join just gets approved and. And we always have weekly discussion questions, and, you know, there's a lot of interaction, and it's very positive, and it's not overwhelming, and there's not a lot of, you know, extra stuff in there. It's really, you know, it's really about the craft of writing and sort of give and take around that. So that's another place that people can find me,

Dave Bullis 1:05:18
And I'll make sure everyone to link to all of Gordy's social media links in the show notes. But Gordy Hoffman, man, it has been a blast talking to you, and I definitely would like to have you back on because we, you know, other guy, like we were just saying, you know, we could, we could talk for another whole, another hour or two,

Gordy Hoffman 1:05:34
Right! Well, looking forward to it, Dave.