Final Cut Pro X, Brad Olsen, Off the Tracks, Indie Film Hustle TV, Post Production, film editor, film editing

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Final Cut Pro X SUCKS…Or Does It? with Brad Olsen

Today’s guest is Brad Olsen, director of the documentary Off the Tracks. If you don’t know the story about the major debacle that was the release of Apple’s Final Cut Pro X get ready to jump into the deep end of editing lore.

In 2011 Apple ended Final Cut Pro as we knew it and started over with a brand new video editing application: Final Cut Pro X. The disruption from this change is still being felt by the film, television, and video industries to this day. With misinformation running amok, Off The Tracks aims to clear the air once and for all. Industry insiders discuss Apple’s controversial decision to redesign the video editing application Final Cut Pro.

This documentary explores why the release of Final Cut Pro X upset video editors and how the software is being used today. Off the Tracks features exclusive interviews with the creative professionals who use the software and the developers who created it. Why did Apple make Final Cut Pro X?

I love this documentary about Final Cut Pro X so much I had to have it on Indie Film Hustle TV. Brad not only loved the idea but he also agreed to jump on the show to discuss why he decided to make a doc about a piece of editing software. He’s laughing all the way to the bank.

Enjoy my conversation with Brad Olsen.

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Alex Ferrari 0:13
Now today's show is about Final Cut Pro X. That's exactly what it sounds like. We're going to talk about a new documentary called off the tracks by a wonderful filmmaker by the name of Brad Olsen, who is a lover of Final Cut Pro X and we go into the deep weeds on why he made this movie. And we'll give you a little bit of a preview of the of the interview, which is one Final Cut Pro, which is what I used to edit on all the time, back in the day before it jumped from Final Cut Pro seven to Final Cut Pro X one a jump to x it was the worst launch for any product Apple has ever done without question. And people are still pissed off about it to this day. And that happened in 2011, I think. And Brad wanted to kind of shine a light on Final Cut Pro X because it has grown a lot since that initial release. And we're going to talk about editing, we're going to be talking about going into the deep words of creative editing, technical editing, what Final Cut Pro does for you, and of course his amazing documentary, which is available on indie film hustle TV. If you want to watch it, the trailer will be in the show notes and I'll leave all that information at the end of the episode. But without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Brad Olsen. I like to welcome the show Brad Olsen man. Thanks for being on the show, brother.

Brad Olsen 4:25
Oh man. It's a pleasure to be here. And I'm excited.

Alex Ferrari 4:28
Yeah, man. I know you. You're jet lagged and you've had a lot of traveling issues. So I appreciate you being here.

Brad Olsen 4:35
Yeah, I just showed the movie. In New York frameio Luma forge and lion iron sponsored this event. And it was really cool to actually see my name on a marquee in downtown New York.

Alex Ferrari 4:49
That was pretty cool, man. But we'll get it Yeah, we're gonna get into the movie. We're definitely gonna get into movie but first, how did you get into this crazy business?

Brad Olsen 4:59
How did I get In the crazy business well, you know, it actually probably started back in the 90s when my grandpa wanted to get a new video camera. So he gave us his old half functioning video camera. And my brother was doing school projects. And at the same time, I was watching, like, behind the scenes of Star Wars and Indiana Jones and stuff like that. And so this idea came into my head that, you know, people actually make movies, which is something as I talk to people, there's this revelation, like, it's not just something obvious that people make these things that we're watching.

Alex Ferrari 5:38
Especially, and especially back then, like, yeah, in the night, and now it's a lot more of a common, you know, I mean, look, there's people who like their goal in life is to be influencers, so and have YouTube channels like that's, that's a career path. Now, back then you couldn't even think about filmmakers? What?

Brad Olsen 6:00
Yeah, so I was like, a 10 year old who's too thought maybe I could make movies and everybody said, No, well, that's like getting drafted in the NBA or something.

Alex Ferrari 6:12
That's actually good. Yeah, it was it was a rarity. If you could even try to break in back then.

Brad Olsen 6:19
So yeah, I just made and then I started making short films with my friends. So mostly spoofs. I like to say, you know how Robert Rodriguez is like everybody has What is it? 20 bad films. And then I think I had like 100 films.

Alex Ferrari 6:34
But you got to get them out. You got to get them out.

Brad Olsen 6:36
Yeah. And then I made one that made sense. It was the first one that made sense to people who weren't me, my friends that worked on it. And it was still really weird. But that was when I was 18. So it took me a long time to kind of like figure out storytelling and figure out how to communicate my ideas to people. But through that whole period, it was just a lot of fun to pick up a camera and make stuff up. And we didn't even really have scripts at the time. You're just like, what are we shooting today? I don't know. Let's that's it.

Alex Ferrari 7:11
That's a recipe. That's a recipe for a fantastic film.

Brad Olsen 7:17
Yeah, I yeah, I don't think many people would sit through a lot of the nonsense that we made during that period. But through that, I always kind of had a serious attitude about it. I didn't like the term amateur. And I didn't like, you know, people saying, uh, you know, someday you'll get better. It was just, I mean, I did have the attitude. Every time I made another film, this one's so much better than the last film and, and I was always trying to push myself, but I just, I took it seriously, even though I knew what we were making was total nonsense.

Alex Ferrari 7:47
Well, that's the way you have to take it. I mean, even Roger Corman took it very seriously. And a lot of the films he was making, you know, you know, was nonsense, and you know, straight, you know, straight to exploit days of exploitative world. So you have to do that I had, I heard a great analogy is like when you're becoming an artist, in order to find your voice. And to get all that bad stuff out, it's kind of like turning on an old faucet. And that faucet, it's just that gunk, that black water that comes out, and it's just just constantly there, and you got to let it run for a little while. And you guys just got to get it all out. And then slowly, but surely, it starts getting clear and clear and clear. And then every once in a while, if you take a drink, there still might be a little bit of dirt in there, but it's getting cleaner and cleaner and cleaner to the point where it becomes good. Yeah, and that's very similar to I think getting those 20 features, or 20 Films out of you that are bad.

Brad Olsen 8:44
Or 100 Well, they were short films, but yeah, I'm not and you know, like through that process, when I was 16, I was able to do an internship, my my brother found like someone a neighbor who worked at a video production company. And so they were doing like infomercials and things and so that's when I first got my hands on like avid, and before that we were using a hacked version of premiere that kept crashing on a really clunky PC blaming Hello premier crashing back. Oh, yeah, the version for like, barely usable.

Alex Ferrari 9:19
Did you ever edit Did you ever edit with like the video cube or media 100 or montage?

Brad Olsen 9:25
No, not none of those systems. I mean, before premiere it or even sometimes well even even if I could edit on premiere. So what we would do is just hook up the camcorder to the VCR and like you know do like the cam quarter audio is going through the white RCA plug and the music is going through the red RCA plug. That's how we were able to like put music and sound effects. And then and then if you wanted to add multiple sound effects and things then you'd have to go VCR to VCR. So by the time we were done like adding music and sound effects And trying to like randomly line those up by hitting play and record at the right time. And like cut out parts, right? It was like, you know that like just like a, I don't know, it looked really blurry and staticky, you could hardly see what the image was. But that, you know, that's that was a lot of fun trying to figure out how to you put stuff on there. And then, of course, premiere made that possible. But we had this issue where the capture card was made by i omega made a cap, oh, i omega buzz. And it was, and it was like 320 by 240 resolution, most of the time, it would at least drop six to eight frames, and the audio would get out of sync, obviously. And when we hit play in Premiere, because it was like an M JPEG codec, it just went black. So I actually had to look at the film frames, like I do the thumbnails in Premiere and zoom in on them to try to find where to cut. And then I'd have to export the movie. And and actually it would it play in the media player because that would crash. So you could you could right click on the properties of the video file, and there was a preview window and you could hit play on that. And through the iomega buzz card, it would go back out to the TV and VCR, and I could record it back on the VHS tape. Does any of that make any sense?

Alex Ferrari 11:28
For me? It does. I'm sure everyone listening is going What the hell are they talking about?

Brad Olsen 11:33
So he was gonna say, here's an interesting thing I learned when I was studying film history, when they before they invented editing like flatbed decks or you know, when they when they actually had the reel to reel and they would cut and splice film like any of the flatbed editing systems. And before sound, they would actually shoot rolls of film. And then they had women come in because they thought this is kind of like sewing. And they'd have like rooms full of women. And they would be looking at the film frames and then figuring out where to cut. And then they would load it up into the projector and watch what they had done. And then make notes and go and pull it back out. And I feel like in a weird way, I had to do the exact same thing because I couldn't really play it in Premiere, I had to render it out, which took forever. Watch it. And then Oh, we got to make that change and get back in. Yep. So it's like the digital fight. But

Alex Ferrari 12:27
Yeah, so let me let me make a disclaimer to everyone listening. Brad is an editor and put that in Brad, Brad is an editor. And we are going to go deep into some geek stuff in this show. So we're going to talk a lot about editing, we're going to talk a lot about super geeky editing stuff. So if you want to learn about this, then continue listening. But we're gonna go hard on this because it's two editors talking. I've had other editors on the show before, it generally goes off the tracks, no pun intended. Because we just get editors just talking about editing stuff, as he's already. Already I'm already off. Anyone is Brad has already gone off the tracks. I love it. This is great. So speaking of off the tracks, you know, the reason I wanted to bring you on is because you directed this insanely awesome documentary called off the tracks, which is and I'm sure you did this for the money. Obviously, obviously, the demographic is straight up cash grab.

Brad Olsen 13:38
Without clever, every mom and every kid wants to see this movie,

Alex Ferrari 13:42
obviously is this and talking dog movies. The film is called off the tracks in the movie is about the colossal failure of the launch of Final Cut Pro X, which was the the next generation after the much beloved Final Cut Pro seven. And it's a documentary that starts off like that, but then kind of goes into where Final Cut x is in today and everything. So I have to ask you the question, why the hell did you make a documentary about Final Cut Pro X, like in your mind, I want to I just want to literally just I want to get in there a little bit and go, you know, would be a really good use of my time. Let me try to make a documentary about a piece of software. That may be 100,000 people on the planet Really? What do you think? 100,000 people I'm generous. I'm scripture. I'm trying to make you feel better. No, but seriously, how did this How did this come around? Because I'm so glad you did it by the way, because I'm one of those 100,000 but what what how did what was the genesis of this project?

Brad Olsen 14:56
You know, it's it's weird, but I had multiple kinds of reasons. of why I wanted to go down this path and why I thought it was a good idea. Simply put, I, actually before Final Cut Pro 10 came out, I thought that I was thinking about the direction that editing software should go. And I was seeing what Apple was actually doing with iMovie when they rewrote it in 2008. Yep. And they made a new iMovie. And that actually was a little bit of a mini is kind of like, warning to what was gonna happen. For Final Cut Pro.

Alex Ferrari 15:31
It was a shot. It was just shot across the bow, sir.

Brad Olsen 15:34
Yeah. And, and you know, if you're paying attention, but I was like, look with where we're going with technology. There's some, there's some innovations and things that need to happen. Probably because, you know, did you notice like in the, from 2000 to 2010, there was this huge explosion with digital cinema, of course, our cameras were changing and codecs we were using, and we suddenly are getting to 4k and raw and all this stuff. Meanwhile, the editing systems weren't changing very much. No, I mean, they we were getting HD and whatnot. But you know, Final Cut. Seven was like you can it can support h 264. It couldn't really do six for now. So I was seeing that the software was having problems. So so I thought this is going to happen. So when Final Cut 10 came out in 2011. Aside from it being a little lacking and feature, lacking it features is the main thing. Aside from that, like the I thought this is the foundation that the next generation of editing software needs to be built on. So I, I believed in it. When

Alex Ferrari 16:41
So you're the one so you're that I was the one you're the one I heard about it. Well, before we before we go into that,

Brad Olsen 16:47
Well, I was gonna say this. Yeah, you asked the question of why why did you make this document? Yeah, so let's fast forward a little bit, I, I thought, at that time, that maybe I can position myself to be part of this kind of next generation. And, and be kind of ahead of the curve. And, and so, as years went by, and I edited feature films on Final Cut Pro 10. You know, I, the opinions weren't changing, it was kind of like everybody just turned off, and they stopped paying attention to what's happening. And I felt like I was the only person using the software. And it was getting upgrades regularly and getting better and better and better. And finally, in about 2014 2015 ish, there was a Final Cut 10 community that was really starting to rally around the software. And when I started getting more involved in that community, and I saw that they were all telling the same story about the horrible lunch, but look at where it is at today. And nobody knows how awesome it is. That's when I had this idea of you know, this is a story. There's a story arc here about the resistance to technological change. And and why do we you know, why we like this whole kind of like, tools and storytellers and all these really interesting themes. And that's when I thought this would be a fun little documentary, and I could maybe position myself and get my name out there. By making this among, among the professional editing community, I could become a little more well known and get more opportunities from there. So it wasn't, it definitely wasn't like, I'm gonna make tons of money off of this, it was I'm gonna make a name for myself and, and hopefully get some more opportunities to, you know, do more filmmaking awesome projects.

Alex Ferrari 18:39
So that makes absolute sense. It's it's absolutely a great marketing plan, you're using the film almost as a loss leader, to get you more work more notoriety, and to position yourself as a thought leader in this space, make pretty much pretty much and it's and it's working. I think so I think it has worked. You know, you're on the show. So that helps. You know, you got on the show. So that makes because I would have never in the middle. If you wouldn't have made this movie, I would have never reached out to you we wouldn't have in whenever contacted. So the movie has created multiple contacts for you throughout the industry. So that's amazing. And that's something that a lot of filmmakers need to think about when they're making their movies. It's not always just about being rich and famous. If you go after such a niche, and this is the niches of a niche, niche film I've ever heard of like it's so deep niche, it's, it's wonderful.

Brad Olsen 19:37
Well, we had that screening in New York on Tuesday, this week earlier this week and Emory wells who's the you know, the Founder President of frame i O. CEO, free bio said, this is probably the only documentary and probably will be the only documentary made about editing software ever.

Alex Ferrari 20:00
Can you imagine like the avid documentary, or the premier documentary, no one would care. Even us, I would never watch an avid documentary. Like I'd be like, if I'm on a plane, and I'm locked in, it's anything else. But what I find fascinating about off the tracks is that the community behind FCP behind Final Cut Pro was such a, it was a massive game changer. And I want to explain to people who haven't listened or haven't, you know, use Final Cut Pro, or didn't understand the power of what it did. When Final Cut Pro, I would say I'm gonna say when Final Cut Pro like three hit, it started to become taken a little bit more seriously. And with every, every new version, I started to grow and grow and grow to the point where it became a serious professional editing system. And I was an avid editor when I started out, because I was the only thing I could that was the only thing that's gonna where you can get jobs and all that. Then when I wanted to open up my own shop, you know, I call a bag and I haven't like that's $150,000 I'm like, go screw yourself. And I saw this final cut thing taken off around me and I'm like, Well, I can buy a system for under 10 grand, you know, within it wasn't because the final code was all the other stuff that you needed back then scuzzy drives and everything to, to run SD. And, and there was an emotional attachment to this piece of software, where I've rarely seen it in other pieces of software. And I think that's why your movie has an audience that people are really, really interested in. Would you agree?

Brad Olsen 21:38
Yeah, there's a huge passion for the original Final Cut Pro. And I feel like this new community file and some of them are people who stuck with the platform, but the Final Cut Pro 10 current community is also extremely passionate, and feels like we have this secret weapon, you know, and I think the original Final Cut Pro was that in like 2003, you know, through 2006 ish before it really started. Feeling like more of a mainstream tool. It was like the end and you know, people were in the mid 2000s, I think, I think in 2003, if you said hey, I'm editing on Final Cut Pro, you get, like, kind of weird looks. And with Final Cut Pro 10. Today, you can get some weird books.

Alex Ferrari 22:28
Listen, and talk into a post production supervisor like myself who deliver films all the time. And when someone says, which rarely happens, but when someone said, What did you edit? I'm like, oh, Final Cut x. I'm like, Oh, God. Oh, God, I'm never gonna get this into color. This is not gonna work well. And, and arguably, it hasn't. Back in the day because they were using, you know, older versions of final, Final Cut Pro X. But first, let's go back a little bit before we get into the deep geek. Why do you think the launch of Final Cut Pro X was such a disaster? I mean, I remember even watching. I was watching Conan O'Brien. Yeah. And Conan O'Brien did a whole piece on it. While his all his editors. Basically, were just so pissed off that they did a segment on why the editors, he's like, I don't know what's going on. But my editors are very upset. Apparently, there's this piece of software that's changed. And life is ended as we know it. I'd like them to, like literally I first time I've ever seen.

Brad Olsen 23:36
I mean, you've got Bloomberg and fortune and like I've been looking it up as research for the documentary. I don't know anybody who didn't publish a story about how that that launch was. It was everywhere. And I think a lot of people that's the only thing they really know about Final Cut Pro 10 is this, this horrible rollout and and it's to the point that I've talked to film students who's who said, when they've shown them I'm using Final Cut Pro 10. And they said, hey, my professor says Apple doesn't make that anymore.

Alex Ferrari 24:10
People are like, oh, Apple's making iPhones. They just they abandoned everybody.

Brad Olsen 24:15
Yeah, yeah, they abandon everybody. So I mean, let's circle back to that initial question. Why was that launch so horrible? I'm going to start with the fact that you know, right when Apple was taking off in the pro video space, you know, they had shake, and they had Final Cut Studio come out, and everything. Right around that time. There was a couple other things happening one, the OS Mac OS went to 64 bit, but the studio applications like Final Cut Pro did not go to 64 bit shake, they reduce the Platt price and announced that they were no longer going to continue making it past shake for so they the VFX industry was all using Shaykh, Lord of the Rings, King Kong, you know you name it was composited with shake, Apple buys it, releases some updates, and then says, You know what, we don't care about this market, we're killing this product,

Alex Ferrari 25:13
Which was I mean, shake was an amazing piece of software. Yes, so good. I mean, everyone used it, and Apple, literally bought it and then just shoved it into the end it killed it killed it. And I think that's what people were afraid of with Final Cut Pro X,

Brad Olsen 25:30
Yeah, and then Final Cut Pro six, and then seven, seven, especially was not much of an upgrade from six, and even reduce the price and it was very underwhelming. Apple also pulled from nav. And they said, we're no longer going to be doing you're only doing Apple, our own Apple events, we're not going to be on the show floor. So I think there was already some things that made professionals question whether or not Apple was going to continue supporting them. And so and so that it was all lined up. And so basically everything hinged on 2011. What's this new thing? There were rumors circulating around Steve Jobs, even emailed someone back saying the next release is going to be awesome, which is in my documentary. And, and so people like there's this anticipation, are they do they love us? Are they going to do something amazing? Are they going to roll shake into motion? Are they get a you know, give us full color and Final Cut Pro? And those were the expectations and and the expectations weren't changing the editing paradigm. In fact, I think the expectations is what we have with resolve 15 Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 26:45
Exactly.

Brad Olsen 26:46
That's what people wanted in 2011. But instead, Apple did what I predicted they were going to do, which was build an editing platform with new ways of interacting with your footage, like with skimming and film strips, and, and a magnetic timeline, which I didn't fully realize until I saw what they'd done. But I knew that something like that was coming. But everybody else that's not where they were looking. And that's not what they wanted. And listen, resolve 15, in a lot of ways was exactly what I would have loved in 2008 2009. Like, where my head was better. But then I saw some of these new ideas and I move Yeah, but okay, they're gonna, they're gonna make a huge shift here. So that expectations were that, and then they, they do this demo, and I think the demo was just such a whirlwind, and so hard for people to wrap their minds around. That, you know, there was a lot of negative reactions The next day, and and then it was just kind of this waiting. Well, let's wait and see what this is gonna be. But I think everyone was scared. I was reading just a couple of weeks ago. They were they were talking about the recession. And they were interviewing Warren Buffett and an article. And Warren Buffett said something I feel like is directly applicable to this final cut 10 launch. Which was when, when it comes to gaining people's confidence, that's a slow process that happens one person at a time. But when it comes to fear, that's something that happens to everyone all at once. And, and I think that people were afraid because and this is the other component, because if you're running a business, if your livelihood depends on a piece of software and a company, and I mean everything it was it was Apple hardware, and was Apple software and and you had and you were selling clients on the fact that you had these HD workflows and, and everything was going to be delivered on time. And then Apple stopped supporting trainers. They stopped supporting trainers, they they they dropped the final cut seven support completely. And they said this is the new thing. Oh, don't forget.

Alex Ferrari 29:11
And don't forget, you can't go back to Final Cut seven projects. So don't forget

Brad Olsen 29:14
You can't open Final Cut seven projects. That was actually the shock for me because I came home on the day Final Cut Pro 10 came out was June 21 2011. I coincidentally had a 2015 or sorry 2011 2015. That'd be great. No, I had a I had my 2011 MacBook Pro 15 inch and with Thunderbolt and I saw in the App Store Final Cut Pro. And then I was like cool and I was downloading it and in my head. I'm like what if what if it has everything and I can open my old projects and I never have to install Final Cut Studio. Well, I opened it up and I tried to open up a Final Cut seven project and it doesn't recognize it. And I was like well wait, what and that's when I googled and saw everyone losing their mind. losing their minds. And I was like, and I and kind of panic set into me, what am I gonna do like what I hate? Even even though I believed in the software, what if everyone's so mad that Apple just stops making this? And where do I go. And so, you know, people felt the band and I, I just kept my eye on what they were doing while everyone else stopped. And actually over the next six months, they did do things like XML and multi cam and a lot of and addressed a lot of the concerns that people had. But by that point, still, there's this other company who was doing some really great marketing called Adobe. And they were already like, taking the abandoned trainers and the third party suppliers and vendors and people and kind of coddling them and saying it's okay, we're here for you. And even though in 2011, premiere also had a lot of limitations and missing features. It was a familiar paradigm. And Adobe started beefing up premiere, so that by 2012, when I when I say Final Cut became usable. premiere was also usable, but premiere was familiar, and everyone had stopped paying attention. So there's there's a lot happening there. You know, there's competition from other vendors. And there's Apple just not reading their user base. Right. And, and thinking that they were going to just be excited by the new thing, like it was the new iPhone, you know,

Alex Ferrari 31:34
Right, right. I think they I think they got a little too cocky. And they thought we're Apple, we're just gonna tell them what the deal is. Yeah. And that's fine with AP, I guess with with like, it doesn't always work. Like people are still pissed off about the towers, like the towers went away, you know, the MacBook, the back pros went away, and they gave us the trash cans. Because I have a trash can. But I would like to have, you know, I'd love to be able to put a card in it. So I hear that they're working on something new. We'll see what happens. But, but it doesn't work all the time. And I think that's what happened with Final Cut Pro X was when I saw it. I opened it up. I was like, well, this sucks. And I'm like, Well, I get and I just said I just hunker down. I'm like, I'm staying on Final Cut seven. I stayed on Final Cut seven till 2015. Wow. Yeah, yeah, I was on it. And I did not I all my projects were on it. And I was still delivering so many movies would come in. And rarely would get a premiere project, especially indie movies, because Final Cut seven was so entrenched. So I would get those movies that come in and I would be able to work with it. And then I would export out to color and to App first of all to Apple color, but then I started going to resolve then then resolve started piquing my interest because I got to a point where I'm like, I can't, I can't work anymore. Like h two six fours and these larger files and I just couldn't work anymore. Final Cut Pro X was not even in my radar. After I left I abandoned it. I was like, Oh, you guys gonna abandon me? Well, I'm gonna abandoned you. Just screw you, man. And I was like, I'm out. And there was this beautiful new girl Her name was DaVinci Resolve.

Brad Olsen 33:21
Yeah. And well, and and coincidentally, some of the people that work on resolve. Were in those original classic Final Cut Pro days working on Final Cut Pro. So they you had some friends there?

Alex Ferrari 33:34
Wait, no, exactly. Because like when I already learned Da Vinci for color. But then editing was kind of like, Oh, it's like this edit tab. It was very I couldn't use it. But then at 12 five came out and holy cow, you can edit now. And then I edited my first feature on it. And then I did shows on it. I'm like, Oh my god, I could do everything here. And that just like it all just started to work. So now resolve is become my main thing. But I am intrigued with Final Cut Pro X because it's just another tool. If I have another tool in my toolbox, why wouldn't I use it?

Brad Olsen 34:07
Yeah, and I and I got resolve. I mean, I was doing the light and free versions for a while. And then they had it's for sale on the App Store for 499 when it was 1000 bucks, you know, so I'm like, I'm gonna buy it because resolve had by that point just become such a Swiss Army knife. I don't know what it can't do. I don't think there's anything it can't do that now.

Alex Ferrari 34:29
Yeah, that was 50 they could do literally anything you want it to do if you know

Brad Olsen 34:35
i mean where I where I kind of switched over and I did take the time to learn 10 and I love the performance and everything. There. They're just little things that resolve can do to fill in the holes of you know, like, for example, just making dailies for an avid editor, something I've done to resolve or making a DCP is something I've used resolve for or I don't know just lots of little little stuff. But I, I enjoy it. But I but the editing experience for Final Cut 10 is something I did convert over to. And it's something I can't really like, go back from going back to tracks for me is is very painful now because it just feels so much slower to me,

Alex Ferrari 35:20
Which was what feels slower to you?

Brad Olsen 35:22
Tracks like editing on tracks feels slower to me than using the magnetic timeline

Alex Ferrari 35:26
You're speaking in the devil's tongue, sir, I have no idea what you mean with this magnetic timeline? What are you on an iPhone editing? I can't work, click. I'm an old school. No, no, no, I'm joking. But I'm actually curious. I don't have the time. Right now. They're learning other pieces of software. But it's something that I will probably bring into my workflow at one point or another, as it continues to grow, but I still like my timeline stuff. And it's weird how editors, we are creatures of habit. We do not like change as a general statement, like, if I tell an avid editor that he's got a cut on Final Cut. It's like, it's like, they'll just like crack a bottle over the bar. And like, let's go. Like, I'm not kidding. Like, it's, you're right? Yes. Am I wrong? Am I wrong? Tell me tell an editor that he has to work with another piece of software, and they will lose their collective shit.

Brad Olsen 36:21
I'm wonderful. And well, part of it is, especially I feel like with with the older paradigms, you know, with with track based editing, and avid, and then Final Cut, and so on. It took a lot of effort in the first place to to master those tools and to learn all the hotkeys. And to get and you start getting in this ninja mode where you feel like you can do anything with it. And you know, like I'm walking these tracks, and I'm patching this and I'm moving this around and you're hitting all the hotkeys and you just feel like a wizard because you know, you've got this idea in your head of I want to cut from this shot to that shot to this other shot. And, and I want these sound effects and whatever, and you just you just start manipulating it, and you just feel like you're playing that instrument and you become proficient at it. And all of a sudden, you know, with something like 10 it gets it's like it's like everyone learns, learns the QWERTY keyboard layout. And with 10, they're like, and we just, this is a more efficient keyboard, but we've moved everything around and it works like this. And if you've never worked in us anything quite like that, but nothing tough. That's a tough sell. And And the irony is that if you take somebody who's never learned any editing system, and you teach them Final Cut Pro 10, they're going to learn it a lot faster than somebody who's never edited. But if you've been if you've taken that time to master an application, like avid, the final cut pro 10 is is just a tool. It's another plan. It's totally bizarre.

Alex Ferrari 38:01
But but also Don't you agree that was the Apple did not ease anyone into this, like there was no easing into this new paradigm? It's not like, you know, hey, we are we just turned on the camera for the first time in 1900. And then the next step is 4k. Like there was no, no time to just ease people into this, this new idea, which I don't disagree with by any stretch. I think it might be where we need to go. It might be another option or the toolset. But man, Apple just just,

Brad Olsen 38:38
You know, it's it's this whole thing of it goes back to that iPhone type of launch. They were very secretive about what they were doing. They were having apple. Yeah, they were they were having internal conversations for years. And there were debates. Why are there Why is why there's some people that are working with resolve or working on resolve that were on the final cut pro team. Well, there obviously there were disagreements at Apple about what they should do. And so they had to reconcile this internally, but they didn't like realize that hey, if this is such a dramatic thing internally, then why that is definitely going to be even bigger deal to everybody else. But they just kind of treated it like here's this new shiny thing. And it's amazing and look awake and do and everybody's like, I don't I don't get it. What?

Alex Ferrari 39:28
So So now you're making this documentary and you're going down this road, you're contacting people and it's a very small community. So when people start hearing about this, what is the reaction when you call people up like Michael up and go, Hey, I'm going to do an interview with you about what a disaster Final Cut Pro X was when I get launched? What was the reactions you guys when you got?

Brad Olsen 39:51
Well, the first person I approached actually was Sam Messman who was working a lot with this company called FCP works at Time. And then now he's all on board. He's the CEO, the co founder, president of Luma. Forge. And he's and his whole thing is pushing Final Cut workflows. I saw him as the guy who was plugged into everybody who was promoting Final Cut Pro 10. New Sam. And so that was kind of my first contact to introduce myself. And then AB. I emailed him afterwards, I told him about this idea. He said, that sounds cool. I said, Can we start contacting people? Like, would you would you make introductions for me? And he said, Well, go off and you know, write a write some more outlines, do this do that he would like say, make up make a little trailer, just like steal footage from the internet, make a little trailer. So he'd give me a little things to do for about three months. And he says, when it's real, I'll reach out to everyone. And that kind of bugged me because I'm like, when it's real, what do you mean? It's like,

Alex Ferrari 40:52
Yeah, I get what he's saying. I completely understand what you're saying.

Brad Olsen 40:55
Yeah. But I just was like, eager to just start introducing people finally he was, you know, three months had gone by any any made a very smart suggestion, which was, Hey, why don't you plan on coming to this Final Cut Pro 10 creative summit, which is like an annual thing they've been doing for the last few years. Since 2015, this was 2016 was talking to Sam, but now it's been a few years they've been doing this. And he's like, pretty much everybody on your list of people you want to interview is going to be there. And, and then when you thought you'd mentioned, Michael, I'm assuming you mean Michael cioni. Well, around the same time, I had put together this little teaser trailer thing, and I'd found clips of Michael cioni talking about Final Cut Pro 10. Because he actually was one in 2011. He was like, Guys, calm down. This is their right? This is the future of editing. And everyone's like, yeah, Michael, you're insane. Right, so I found all these clips and I and all I asked Michael cioni for is, do you think it'd be okay, if I use these clips of you in my documentary? Would you be cool with that? And he said, Yeah, I give you my permission to do that. But I really am passionate about this subject. And I really like you to come out and interview me. And I was like, heck, yeah. Go do that. So so I had these creative seven interviews lined up here. Sam reached out to them. And everybody that I wanted to talk to there was like, absolutely. The sounds awesome.

Alex Ferrari 42:22
Of course, you rallied the geeks.

Brad Olsen 42:25
Yeah, well, and the other thing to keep in mind is a lot of the people I wanted to interview are like, either software trainers or plugin developers for Final Cut Pro 10. So if they can tell the story of Final Cut Pro 10 and advocate why they like it, it just brings more sales to them. You know, so they're all passionate about it. And they also have a business interest in supporting it. That's that's part of it. Obviously, some of the people editors and people I interviewed just are passionate about the software and they've had a lot of them had that like they hated it at first In fact, Mike Matt store who was an assistant editor on focus, and now is a editor at Warner Brothers animation. He he tweeted that this is utterly Final Cut Pro 10 is utterly unusable. And he was really pissed about it. But then focus came across as a job that he could work on and and he started looking into it and figuring it out and actually made it work for a feature film. That was $100 million feature film star starring Will Smith.

Alex Ferrari 43:27
I was I thought it was that the movie I was like, we just have to focus on like, it can't be the Will Smith movie. It is that was edited and Final Cut x.

Brad Olsen 43:35
It was the first major motion picture edit in Final Cut Pro 10.

Alex Ferrari 43:38
Wow, that's pretty. That's pretty cool. How many other movies at one of the movies

Brad Olsen 43:44
And have it well, the same filmmakers had whiskey Tango Foxtrot. geostorm was originally cut on Final Cut 10. But then, the studio did a test screening and they didn't like the film. So they took it away. My understanding is they took it away from Dean Devlin and they who actually used use Final Cut Pro 10 on the show leverage. Yeah, that I know. Yeah. And yeah, and geostorm was taken back over by the studio. So I assume they re cut it on avid. There's a lot of independent films, there's a lot of foreign films, especially that have been cut on Final Cut Pro 10. One is called the Unknown Soldier, which was actually the biggest movie in 2017. In Finland, the highest grossing of their in their box office. And it was, you know, it was kind of intense. So there's the it's, it's actually in Europe. There's a lot of there's like a lot of people over there that are kind of secretly using Final Cut Pro 10. And in Hollywood, it's like they just all went back to avid and double down on avid, and that's for the most part, but focus was a movie where the filmmakers were like, let's let's do this and you actually think about it. They had to start doing that in 2013. Which is very, very Early in Final Cut only as a couple years old, and everyone on the internet said, there's no way this could be used on a major motion picture. But that team figured it out. And they did it. And not only did they do it, they actually found that they saved money and time by using Final Cut Pro 10.

Alex Ferrari 45:19
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. Interesting, interesting. Now, when now you're making this documentary, I'm assuming Apple gets wind of this. I'm assuming and Apple is known for being very kind and gentle to people, especially when they're talking about products of theirs. So for everyone listening, I'm being facetious. Of course not Apple is, is not that nice when it comes to this stuff. So what happened when Apple heard about this?

Brad Olsen 45:56
Uh, you know, the interesting thing is, there are there's lots of different people working on Final Cut Pro 10. And I first had the pleasure of meeting a few of them when I went to the creative summit while I was filming it. And so so some of the, like designers and engineers, who I won't like call out, but they there's a lot of curiosity and excitement. And you know, it was but at the same time, like, Oh, I don't know if I can live through that, can we just move past it? And, and then from the marketing side, the people who are in charge of marketing, there was a lot of apprehension, of course, and worry and anxiety, what is this guy going to do? And are we gonna have to like, sue him? Probably. He's got I don't know if that if they thought that But

Alex Ferrari 46:47
Definitely, but there's nothing nervous. But there's all No, honestly, they can't do anything.

Brad Olsen 46:51
I mean, no, it's it's, you know, it's a documentary documentary in its fair use. And absolutely, you can state your opinion. So, uh, so yeah, they, but they, you know, I was, I was trying to reach out and reassure them that this would be good for them. But they didn't necessarily believe me. And, again, this is not I should make this very clear. It's not sponsored, it's not endorsed. And that was the biggest thing is they do not want to, you know, they don't want to, like, give me any money for this, or whatever they want this to be totally independent thing, which I appreciate. Because that's a question people ask us.

Alex Ferrari 47:29
Like, how much of this?

Brad Olsen 47:31
Yeah, did Apple Pay for this apple? Buy it? No, not at all. It's very independent of that. But I, the end result, I will say, again, without calling out specific people and communications. Now, I think they're happy with it, because it is a pause. It's a pause. In the end, it's a positive message. And it's stuff that it talks about, with what they got wrong, especially with the initial release. Not only is it fair, and I think honest, it's, you need a story, you know, you're gonna it's part of the story. And it's what people who have been ignoring Final Cut Pro 10 need to have acknowledged, you know, this is, and that's what I think differentiates this from just like a puff piece or an ad is, right, is that, you know, we address this, these concerns head on, in a way that Apple marketing could never do. Right? Right. But it's, it's the, it's absolutely the thing that the marketing that they need, you know, in order for people to kind of take another look. So I was passionate enough to like, go down that path and do that and do it independent of Apple, and do it without their permission. And without them even questioning, you know, and worrying about what I was doing. I think I can't confirm any of that. Because it's mostly just how I it's this what I read from the interactions I've had with certain people at events, that's something that people probably don't realize is Apple, even though they're not like always having their own big booth, they don't have their own big booths. And maybe and these events, they're actually there. So if you know where to look for them, and you know who they are like, you can go up and talk to them. But then you have these very, like, one sided conversations where they don't answer any questions, but they may ask you a question.

Alex Ferrari 49:27
Yes, Apple is very, very quiet. They keep everything close to the to the to the to the breast without question. Now, I have a one question for you, man. Why are people in our industry, so emotional about a piece of software? It's a tool I mean, you don't see plumbers losing their mind over the plunger they use. Like, am I wrong? Like you don't see a carpenter like, you know about, you know, so passionate about the hammer that they use. You know,

Brad Olsen 49:58
I would I would say like Any buddy who works with tools is going to be they're going to take a lot of consideration what tools they're using, right? But they probably are not going to lose their mind. You know, if a new power sock comes out or something that might differently, they might learn it, you know?

Alex Ferrari 50:18
Yeah, there is no documentary about the new power saw horrible launch of the power saw the Black and Decker did. And then, and then another company came in with their power saw and took over the market because of the hot does a horrible launch. The other one was, like it doesn't, you know,

Brad Olsen 50:33
And they're not following. It's not like they're like, what's the next version of this tool? Right, the new hammer gonna be.

Alex Ferrari 50:40
But I mean, it's fair to be that way about software, but it's software. I mean, we're, it's apples and oranges, even though hammer is different than an editing system. But at the end of the day, it's still a tool. So why are we as creators? So? So, so passionate about it,

Brad Olsen 50:57
Right! Like, it's the new version of 10 comes out? Why were people just kind of like, yeah, whatever, I'm just gonna go back to avid like, casually, they were, they're so upset, there's so much I've seen, you know, in releasing the trailer and stuff I've seen like just pure hate spew from people. Why International Trade Me. I can't believe them. They owed me and they didn't deliver. I think it's because remove that removing the tools. Like just filmmaking in general, you have to have such a drive and passion to succeed and get anywhere and film because it's so it's, so it's getting easier now. But it's still so hard to tell a story. With film, you know, it's it's all our, you know, takes dedication, but film requires money, and collaborators and like every kind of art and craft that you can think of goes into it. So I think it's, you know, starts because we're just passionate about telling stories through this medium. And then that gets tied into the tools that enable us to do that. So the original Final Cut Pro especially, was something that was the beginning of the democratization of tools. And, and so suddenly, you know, me as a high school kid, I could get my hands on it, and put it on my own computer. And I could make things happen with it. And so the tools that have this, there's an emotional, sentimental component to it. What's even what's still bizarre to me, though, is people with editing software, are I feel like even more passionate about that, then people are with cameras. And that's saying a lot, because you know, people are passionate about cameras. But if a new 8k, you know, 20 stop, you know, whatever Blackmagic raw camera or comes out, like, people are like, Oh, the new thing, they'll jump, they'll jump for it. And maybe that's why 10 wasn't as shocking for me because I was also a camera guy. So like, I was seeing that happen in the camera world. And I think I mentioned that earlier. And, and not in the editing world. And I was wanting that for the editing world. But every but yeah, editors just didn't want to so I don't know, I think it's that kind of emotional bond with, this is the thing that enables me to do the thing I like. And and it also took a lot of energy and dedication to master it. And so too, for a company to say, you know that that was something that Apple didn't do is they didn't have the memorial service for seven. Right?

Alex Ferrari 53:43
Because you would never think that you would lead a memorial service for a piece of software. But for the users for me, I that's the logical person speaking. Yeah, for the final cut editor in me, I agree with you. 110%.

Brad Olsen 54:00
Yeah, if they'd had some sort of, like, we know you love this, this is the amazing things, we've we've been on this amazing journey together. We hope you come on this next leg of the journey with us. We're gonna you know, we're gonna continue to support Final Cut seven for the next year. And but that was just something Apple felt like if they, if they had this, you know, the counter argument to that is, if you got this new thing coming out, and you continue supporting the old thing and letting people know you're going to get rid of it. Well, there's almost create some sort of false hope of, well, maybe they're just experimenting with this new thing. And if we all say the new thing is terrible, then we get to keep the old thing alive.

Alex Ferrari 54:42
It's a fascinating it's a fascinating conversation

Brad Olsen 54:44
But it's a kind of a conundrum right? You know, that like how do you deal with it and then because Apple wasn't able to come come out, you know, going back to this whole secretive thing. They weren't able to come out and and ask people questions and talk to people open About this big transition, they weren't able to kind of do the market research to figure out well, how people how are they going to react? I mean, I know that you know, some people be pissed, but I don't think, you know, Randy, you billows expected that Conan O'Brien was gonna mock his baby. Right? Horrible. We can't even imagine how that felt and the users, you know, here's another element to you mentioned the internet. I think the internet also changes things. This is kind of interesting comparison. But just like, think about if the last Jedi had come out 20 years ago, or 10 years ago, do you think I mean, and whatever opinions you might have about the last Jedi aside, do you think that the the anger and hatred and all the YouTube videos that I've seen uploaded about how terrible Ryan Johnson is and how horrible this movie is? I don't think that the hate for it would have been as strong in a pre social media era.

Alex Ferrari 56:04
I mean, look, the prequels survived. Can you imagine if the prequels comment came out now?

Brad Olsen 56:09
Yeah, in generally in the media, even though people kind of said, Our Jar Jar sucks the next episode, too, you know, so to everyone's like, at high hopes. And the initial reaction was, Oh, it was better than Phantom Menace. And then Revenge of the Sith in general, people were like, Oh, yeah, it's like the best one of these three movies. And some people even said, it's second to Empire. And of course, that's not really, but I'm just saying, that was what was being written. Sure. But that's not necessarily the truth. But it was because, you know, the naysayers couldn't bond together as easily as they can on social media. Yeah, of course, since her last Jedi gets like, slammed and, you know, I have my own complaints with it. But the level that it gets slammed, I'm like, whoa. And I think the same can be said for something like Final Cut Pro 10. Coming out, is you and you know, this is another interesting thing is you're making software for storytellers, and people who know how to communicate really, really well. And now they have a platform on social media, to be able to communicate thoughts to everyone right and bond together. So it's like this perfect storm of, you know, don't piss off, like they pissed off a group of people that you know, have the skills to fight have the skills to fight back. Exactly. It's not a huge if you think about it in the the population of the world. I mean, there's not that many professional film and television editors.

Alex Ferrari 57:41
No, there isn't. There's, they're not that many, but they are powerful. Yeah, very dense. And then I'm excited to say that off the tracks is available on ifH. TV, which is extremely exciting. So thank you for bringing it to the tribes of the tribe can see it, and experience what we went through all those years ago, and I will be giving Final Cut Pro X try in the future when I have a second to breathe, and try to learn a new piece of software. But I'm interested in it sounds a very interesting piece of of software now that you know, I always like to be the rebel. I've always been outside the box and outside the party, as they say. So I seems like Final Cut x is definitely far out there. Because I think resolve is out there your resolve is outside the box. But like, Final Cut Pro X is outside of resolves box.

Brad Olsen 58:40
Yeah, it's it's a totally different paradigm. And I think, I think people can watch the film and kind of see, what was the thinking behind the magnetic timeline? Why Why did they go for this paradigm? And, and why is it Why did Apple kind of broaden the market? And and, you know, it's it's an interesting thing to look at. They made the software easier for new users. And, and made it simpler in some ways, but then people assume that it's also not capable and deep, but as we mentioned, you know, it has been used on some feature films and improved itself. So the film goes, I'll let the film kind of speak for itself in that but there's that we definitely go into a lot of the thinking behind what the the the act explaining that Apple didn't do is in the movie.

Alex Ferrari 59:33
You're doing Apple shops. Are you doing God's work, sir? You're doing God's work in the editing world, sir. Thank you. Yeah. Now I'm going to ask you a few questions. I asked all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker wanting to break into the business today?

Brad Olsen 59:48
There's nothing really stopping you from going out learning storytelling we talked about at the beginning of this my own experience, you know, using VHS and highlight tapes and everything. Looking like garbage and sounding like garbage and but now, you don't have those technical limitations you if you got a smartphone that can shoot HD or 4k video, you're way ahead of where I was at. And, and you can share that with everybody and you can get feedback. So just do it like find a story, whatever it is shoot some short videos, share it with people learn and grow. There's there's really nothing stopping you from from starting, there's no, you don't have to buy the $150,000 avid, you know, just do

Alex Ferrari 1:00:34
Horrible. And just just just, I can't I can't stand avid sorry. It's passionate as I am about Final Cut, I am equally as passionate about hating avid on many, many levels as a person who has to deal with their workflow coming out also as a person who, who looked to them for like, Hey guys, I am on your, on your side, I want to open a business around your software. And they said screw you, you little little peon. And I said Really? Okay. And that's where we are today. But anyway, that's on a side note. I just ramble. I apologize. Anytime I get passionate anytime I get to tabash a habit I do. But anyway.

Brad Olsen 1:01:22
Definitely, they definitely not position themselves for the independent content creator, filmmaker, I think beginning

Alex Ferrari 1:01:29
I will not be now either. Are you kidding me? No, I've never get an independent film with an avid. But I honestly do think that, that company, if they don't change which they are as entrenched in their way of doing things, as any company I've ever seen, if they don't change to the reality of where this business is going, they will go under, because their entire business model is based around the studio system around

Brad Olsen 1:01:56
Well, here's something that shouldn't, I don't know if it's a secret or not. But I've heard from multiple people that before 10 came out, like in a hypothetical world, if Final Cut Pro eight had come out. That would have been it for avid that would have they would have been done. They were so close to going out of business, really 2010 and 2011. The thing that kept them alive, is that professional market who is leaving in mass to go to Final Cut Pro, being scared about 10 and coming back to avid. And that's what's kept them on life support. And I don't know how they stay in business, actually. So I think you're right, I think

Alex Ferrari 1:02:39
It's all it's all it's all studio based stuff because they have a mentality and older mentality where the like the studio system is the only game in town. But the thing is that what Apple figured out, and what resolve figured out is making very expensive gadgets that only a handful of people can buy is a dangerous business model, which is exactly why when resolving Blackmagic bought Da Vinci which used to be a million dollars sweet. They said no, this doesn't make any sense to us, we are going to now give it away

Brad Olsen 1:03:17
And you know, it's working definitely for resolve and for Final Cut, because it is so approachable for users. And it's also a very cost effective tool or, you know, doesn't cost very much at all. It actually they've actually sold like around 3 million copies of the software now. So that's like you could add up all the other professional enrollees. And they don't do they there's not they haven't sold half that. I mean, it's really amazing. And I was just flying back from New York and one of the guys that was talking to the airport, and it's like, oh, what were you here for? Actually, we were on the shuttle right to the airport. And he's somebody who was out for a conference for his church organization. And he's like, oh, Final Cut Pro 10 Oh, yeah, I have that I use it once a week to make these videos for my church. That's a totally he doesn't consider himself a filmmaker at all right but he's using a he needs a professional video tool. And that's a market that Apple saw his broader market that Yeah, you're right I've it's completely ignore not only the independent filmmaker, but just your regular youtuber content creator. Just somebody needs to make a video for the church. There's so videos being used in so many ways now. And I guess this ties back into if you're just starting out, you the tools are in your hand, you know to get started and get going and it doesn't cost nearly as much you know, the crisis keep coming down on the quality keeps coming going up. So just do it.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:50
Um, now what book had the biggest impact in your life or career?

Brad Olsen 1:04:56
Just one?

Alex Ferrari 1:04:58
Just one. That's all you're allowed to say.

Brad Olsen 1:05:02
Man, tough to narrow down to one. But I feel like in recent history, there's so many making up books and things, but I won't go off on all those. I really liked the book creativity Inc, the Ed catmull wrote such a beautiful book. I mean, I know that they're ideals that even Pixar doesn't live up to all the time as given the recent history with john Lasseter. Yeah, yes, it makes me It breaks my heart. But the principles and the stuff that Ed catmull talks about in that book, I, I believe we're true. And I think the filmmaking world would be a better place if, if everybody could like strive for that level of collaboration and openness and honesty in the process. That's what it needs. It doesn't need pissing contests. It doesn't need, you know, people like I just don't like the top down management that you especially see in studio systems. I love the open collaboration, and then independent films. You know, that has to happen. The director can't think, Hey, I'm better than everybody here.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:11
No, I'm

Brad Olsen 1:06:12
The artists obviously, you have never, never get they'll never get any work done. You know, you've definitely got a you definitely got to listen and creativity Inc. Just give some fantastic ideas of how to brainstorm and work together and, and strive for just great storytelling. That's inspirational for me,

Alex Ferrari 1:06:33
I would I obviously would not spend time on an independent film set. Because the directors I've met. I'm joking, I know you have I know you have. But I don't know what magical world, we're all of them. Everyone's all collaborative. And the director doesn't think he knows everything he or she knows everything. There's been both I've seen both but

Brad Olsen 1:06:56
But you know, it kills the film. I feel like when when somebody just hits that ego and arrogance. And you know, it's tough, because in order to get started in a film, you have to have confidence. But you can't have so much confidence that it becomes

Alex Ferrari 1:07:13
There's a fine balancer. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn while either in the film business or in life?

Brad Olsen 1:07:21
Lesson that well, maybe just what I just said,

Alex Ferrari 1:07:24
Don't let your confidence turn into arrogance. Got it?

Brad Olsen 1:07:28
That that's, you know, I'm speaking from my own, like, yeah, learning to listen to people and learning to it was, especially as an editor, where you, you figure out that is interesting, because editing is in a way a dark art. And so literally do all these things that the director and producers don't realize you're doing to structure the story. And so you get it. But then there's a little bit of pride associated with that. And if when they want you to change things, and you feel like you've kind of mastered what's your your craft, for me that that at first, that was kind of a hard thing to like, learn but but now, and actually, this ties in to Final Cut Pro 10. Final Cut Pro 10. Because I've embraced this kind of magnetic timeline and way of working, I feel a lot more comfortable making changes on the fly, and just trying things. Whereas before, because I was managing tracks and turning them on and off. And I had these sound effects lined up and these music cues and these titles. I couldn't manage that. But but it would take a few steps to make sure that things didn't get knocked out of sync. And as a result, when I was working with producers, and clients, and they were asking me to make changes, I would get into a whole discussion of whether or not we should actually do that change. And this was this isn't, by the way, not so much in the rough cut period. This is like we've been working on this for a while. And all of a sudden, they're like, I just want to try this shot here. And you're like, Okay, if I put that shot here, I have to do this, this, this, this and this, and then that would lead me into Okay, are you sure you really want to do it? Let's picture in our head. Well, now with 10 in the magnetic timeline, I'm like you want to try it? Okay. And I've had that moment to where they started to. They're like, they started into their counter defense before I start talking. Mm hmm. Because they figure I'm going to say, Well, are you sure you really want to do this? And they're like, well, I really want to do this because did it and I'm like no, no, it's cool watch. And like, Oh yeah, that doesn't work or Yeah, that works, but I'm much more flexible. So that's that's two sided. Like for me, the software has helped me with that. But also, I think even whatever software you're using, you need to be open to suggestions and ideas and trying everything in order to end up with the best quality work

Alex Ferrari 1:10:01
Fair enough to learn and the three favorite films of all time?

Brad Olsen 1:10:06
Ah, three favorite movies of all time it changes depending on what mood I'm in

Alex Ferrari 1:10:14
As everybody's Yes.

Brad Olsen 1:10:15
And and what and what yeah, I mean I would definitely put Okay, I'm just gonna say these three and I know that tomorrow my answer would be totally different an hour from now 15 minutes from now may be different but I think Raiders of Lost Ark Empire Strikes Back and Fellowship of the Ring would be up there all right that good list? Yeah, I have a lot of others dramas Shawshank Redemption is mind whatever. But they like a little carousel they rotate.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:47
Absolutely. And where can people find you in your work?

Brad Olsen 1:10:52
So I think right now offthetracksmovie.com And Fedorapictures.com are the two best places to kind of see what I'm up to and and what I'm doing.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:04
Very cool, man. And again, thank you so much for allowing us IFH TV to host your amazing film and share it with our community. So thanks again, man, I appreciate it. And thank you for geeking out with me and talking editing talk because it's rare that I actually have these kind of ridiculous conversations about software and editing and tracks and magnetic. Magical who has.

Brad Olsen 1:11:30
Well, if you wanted to do a follow up, there's a whole nother side of this about independent film distribution. And because you know, I didn't just add it.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:39
No, no, you did the whole independent documentary and correct. No, exactly. I actually was I did have a question. But it's like we are over an hour in 10 years. And I don't want another for another show. Maybe I just don't i don't want to push my audience too far. I'm like, Look, Alex, we've been talking about Final Cut x for an hour. Can we move it along? No. But thank you so much for that. I appreciate your time.

Brad Olsen 1:12:04
Yeah, absolutely. It was a pleasure to be on there. And I'm excited for everybody in the tribe to see it and hopefully get some perspectives and ideas that they haven't had before. or heard before.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:18
Thanks again, man.

Brad Olsen 1:12:20
Yep, thank you.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:21
I want to thank Brad for coming on the show and just geeking out with me over Final Cut Pro editing software. And just getting in deep into the weeds of the editors mind, which is a very, very scary place if I do say so myself. But thanks again, Brad, I appreciate it. And if you guys want to watch the movie, which if you're interested at all in this kind of stuff, it is an amazing documentary. That's why I went after this documentary forIFH TV, just head over to indiefilmhustle.tv sign up and you'll be able to get access to it. I will be putting the links to the put the trailer on in the show notes and links to everything we discussed in the episode at indiefilmhustle.com/278. And also, as a bonus, the next episode that we're going to have Episode 279 is going to be Brad again. But this time we're going to just talk strictly about his distribution because he's self distributed this film all by himself. And it was an amazing you know, we touched on a little bit in this interview but we want I asked them to come back just to talk about his experience in self distributing a very niche documentary and he's learned a lot and he should he jobs, major knowledge bombs on the tribe and this next interview so keep an eye out on that next week. And if you haven't already, please head over to filmmakingpodcast.com and leave the show a good review, it really helps to show out helps us get more information out to more filmmakers. If we get higher ranked on iTunes. I really do truly appreciate your time and support guys. And as always keep that also going. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.



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Welcome to the indie film hustle podcast episode number 278. I started using Final Cut Pro X on the day. It was released and I did the same thing everybody else did which was open it up and go. Oh my God and shut it back down again. Peter wakings broadcasting from the back alley and Hollywood.

It’s the indie film hustle podcast where we show you how to survive and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film business. And here’s your host Alex Ferrari welcome any film Hustlers do another episode of the indie film as a podcast. I am your humble host. Alex Ferrari Today’s Show is sponsored by Black Box black box is a new platform and community.

That is all about Financial Freedom for filmmakers like you if you join Black Box, you will be transformed from being a worker to being a maker of your own content and you’ll be making steady passive income from the global market Black Box currently allows you to upload your stock footage once get it too many Global agencies and then allows you to share that passive income stream.

With your collaborators whether you want to submit old footage that’s been sitting around in your hard drives or create brand new content black box is for you. It’s really quite revolutionary with black box filmmakers can concentrate on making great content while Black Box takes care of all the business BS.

Just visit w-w-w dot black box dot Global to find out more and Today’s Show is also sponsored by indie film hustle TV. The world’s first streaming service dedicated to filmmakers screenwriters and content creators. If you want access to filmmaking documentaries feature films about filmmaking interviews with some of the top screen writers and filmmakers in Hollywood as well as educational online courses all in one place.

I FH TV is for you just head over to indie film hustle dot TV now guys. Also, I just want to let you know that any film hustle TV is off and running with a big big bank. I’m getting new members to the tribe every day on I FH TV, so thank you so much and I want to let you guys know that it is now available on Apple TV and Amazon TV or Fire TV.

As far as their apps are concerns you go to Amazon and just type in any film hustle TV and you can download the app straight to your fire device and the Ruku app is in review at the moment. So we should probably have it within the next week or two and then in December we’re going to be working on iOS apps for iPhone iPad.

And also for Android as well, and then after the New Year, we’re going to have some new apps as well, but it is going big guy. So thank you again so so much for all the support and you guys are really enjoying it. So I cannot wait to add all the new content I have in store for you guys on December 1st.

Now Today’s Show is about Final Cut Pro X. That’s it. Exactly what it sounds like we’re going to talk about a new documentary called off the tracks by a wonderful filmmaker by the name of Brad Olson who is a lover of Final Cut Pro X and we go into the deep weeds. On why he made this movie and we’ll give you a little bit of a preview of the of the interview which is when Final Cut Pro which is what I use to edit on all the time back in the day before it jumped from Final Cut Pro 7 to Final Cut Pro X when I jump to X it was the worst launch for any product Apple has ever done without question and people are still pissed off about it to this day.

Happened in 2011. I think and Brad wanted to kind of shine a light on Final Cut Pro X because it is grown a lot since that initial release and we’re going to talk about editing. We’re going to be talking about going into the deep words of creative editing technical editing what Final Cut Pro does for you and of course his amazing documentary, which is available.

Indie film hustle TV. If you want to watch it, the trailer will be in the show notes and I’ll leave all that information at the end of the episode. But without any further Ado, please enjoy my conversation with Brad. Ulsan. I’d like to welcome to show Brad Olsen man. Thanks for being on the show brother.

Oh man. It’s a pleasure to be here. And I’m excited. Yeah, man. I know you you’re jet-lagged and you’ve had a lot of traveling issue. So I appreciate you being here. Yeah, just shows the movie in New York frame IO Luma Forge and light iron sponsored this event. And it was really cool to actually see my name on a Marquee in downtown New York.

That was like pretty cool man, but we’ll get it. Yeah, we’re gonna get into the movie definitely gonna get the movie. But first, how did you get into this crazy business? How did I get in the crazy business? Well, you know, it actually probably started back in the 90s when my grandpa wanted to get a new video camera.

So he gave us his old half functioning video camera and my brother was doing school projects and at the same time I was watching bike behind the scenes of Star Wars and Indiana Jones and stuff like that. And so. This idea came to my head that you know people actually make movies which is something as I talk to people there’s this Revelation like it’s not just something obvious that people make these things that were watching the stretch, especially love it have to be in especially back then like yeah in the night now it’s a lot more of a common.

You know, I mean look there’s people who like their goal in life is to be influencers. So have YouTube channels. Like that’s that’s what career path now back then you couldn’t even think about filmmakers what? Yeah, so I was like a ten year old whose to thought. Maybe I could make movies and everybody said no.

Well that’s like getting drafted in the NBA or something. That’s actually good. Yeah, it was it was a rarity if you could even try to break in back then.  So yeah, I just made then I started making short films with my friends. So mostly spoofs. I like to say, you know how Robert Rodriguez is like everybody has what is it 20 bad films in them?

I think I had like a hundred that films but you gotta get him out. You gotta get him out. Yeah, and then I made one that made sense. It was the first one that made sense to people who weren’t me my friends that worked on it and it was still really weird, but that was when I was 18, so it took me a long time to.

Kind of like figure out storytelling and figure out how to communicate my ideas to people but through that whole period it was just a lot of fun to pick up a camera and make stuff up and we didn’t really have scripts most of the time. They’re just like what are we shooting today? I don’t know.

Let’s say that’s a double the recipe. That’s a recipe for a fantastic. Yeah, I yeah, I don’t think many people would sit through a lot of the nonsense that we made during that period but through that I always kind of had a serious attitude about it. I didn’t like the term amateur and I didn’t like, you know people saying oh, you know someday you’ll get better.

It was just I mean I did have the attitude every time I made another film this one so much better than the last film and and I was always trying to push myself, but I just. I took it seriously, even though I knew what we were making was total nonsense. Hmm. Well that’s the way you have to take it.

I mean even Roger Corman took it very seriously and a lot of the films you making, you know, you know was nonsense and you know straight, you know straight to exploitation exploitative world. So you have to do that. I had a guy heard a great analogy is like when you’re becoming an artist in order to find your voice and to get all that bad stuff out.

It’s kind of like turning on an old faucet. And that faucet it’s just that Gunk that black water that comes out and it’s just just constantly there and you got to let it run for a little while and you guys just got to get it all out and then slowly but surely it starts getting clearer and clearer and clearer and then every once in a while if you take a drink they still might be a little bit of dirt in there but it’s getting cleaner and cleaner and cleaner to the point where it becomes good.

Yeah, and that’s very similar to I think getting those 20 features out of here 22 films out of Youth are bad. Or a hundred. Well, they were short films. But yeah now and you know the through that process when I was 16, I was able to do an internship my my brother found like a someone a neighbor who worked at a video production company and so they were doing like infomercials and things and so that’s when I first got my hands on like Avid and before that we were using a hacked version of Premiere that kept crashing on a really clunky PC.

Wait a minute. Hold up premier. Yeah, the first one for like barely usable. Did you ever edit did you ever at it would like the video Cube or media? 100 or Montage? No, none of those systems. I mean before Premier it were even sometimes while even the even if I could edit on Premiere. So what we would do is just hook up the camcorder to the VCR and like, you know be like the camcorder.

Audio is going through the the white RCA plug and the music is going through the red RCA plug. That’s how we were able to like put music and sound effects. And then and then if you wanted to add multiple sound effects and things then you’d have to go VCR to VCR. So by the time we were done like adding music and sound effects and.

Trying to like randomly line those up by hitting play and record at the right time and like cut out parts, right? It was like, you know that like just like a I don’t know it looked really blurry and staticy. You could hardly see what the image was but that you know, that’s that was a lot of fun trying to figure out how do you put stuff on there?

And then of course Premiere made that possible but we had this issue where. The capture card was made by I Omega me the captcha I Omega buzz and it was and it was like 320 by 240 resolution most of the time it would at least dropped six to eight frames and an audio get out of sync obviously and when we hit play in Premiere because it was like an mjpeg codec.

Hmm. It just went black. So I actually had to look at the film frames like I do the thumbnails and Premiere and zoom in on them to try to find where to cut and then I’d have to export the movie and and actually it would it play in the media player because that would crash so you could you could right click on the properties of the video file and there was a preview window and you can hit play on that and through the I Omega buzzcard it would go back out.

To the TV and vcr and I could record it back on the VHS tape does any of that make any sense? I’ll make steps up for me. It does. I’m sure everyone listen is going what the hell are they talking about? So that’s what I’m here to say. Here’s interesting thing. I learned when I was studying film history when they before they invented editing like flatbed decks or you know, when they when they actually had the reel to reel and they would cut and splice film like a any of the flatbed editing systems and before sound.

They would actually shoot rolls of film and then they have women come in because they thought this is kind of like sewing and they’d have like rooms full of women and they would be looking at the film frames and then figuring out where to cut and then they would load it up into the projector and watch what they had done.

And then make notes and go and pull it back out and I feel like in a weird way. I had to do the exact same thing because I couldn’t really play it in Premier. I had a render it out which took forever watch it. And then oh, we got to make that change and go back and so it’s like the digital pod. But yeah, so let me let me make a disclaimer to everyone listening Brad is an editor.

So I just put that in practice Brad is an editor and we are going to go. Into some geek stuff in this show. So we’re going to talk a lot about editing. We’re going to talk a lot about Super geeky editing stuff. So if you want to learn about this then continue listening, but but we’re gonna go hard on this because it’s two editors talking.

I’ve had other editors on the show before it generally goes off the tracks no pun intended

because we just get editors just talking about editing stuff as he’s already bread is ready already. Already off anyone this is Brad has already gone off the tracks. I love it. This is great. So speaking of off the tracks, you know, the reason why I bring you on as because you directed this insanely awesome documentary called off the tracks, which.

And I’m sure you did this for the money. Obviously, obviously the demographic is straight up cash grab without quite every every mom and every kid wants to see this movie. Obviously is this and talking dog movies. The film is called off the tracks and the movie is about. The Colossal failure of the launch of Final Cut Pro X which was the Next Generation after the much-beloved Final Cut Pro 7 and it’s a documentary that starts off like that but then kind of goes into where Final Cut Pro X is in today and everything so I have to ask you the question.

Why the hell did you make a documentary about Final Cut Pro X like in your mind? I want to I just want to literally just I want to get in there a little bit and go, you know, what be a really good use of my time. Let me try to make a documentary about a piece of software that maybe a hundred thousand people on the planet really know.

What do you think a hundred thousand people? Yes, I’m sure I’m trying to make you feel better. No, but seriously, how did this how did this come around? Because I’m so glad you did it by the way because I’m one of those hundred thousand but what what how did what was the Genesis of this project?

You know, it’s weird but I had multiple kind of reasons of why I wanted to go down this path and why I thought it was a good idea. Simply put I actually before Final Cut Pro 10 came out. I thought that I was thinking about the direction that editing software should go and I was seeing what Apple was actually doing with iMovie when they rewrote it in 2008.

Yeah, and they made a new iMovie and that actually was a little bit of a mini this kind of like. Awarding to what was gonna happen through for Final Cut Pro, but it was a shot across the bow, sir. Yeah, and you know if you’re paying attention, but I was like look Within. Where we’re going with technology, there’s something there’s some Innovations and things that need to happen probably because you did you notice I can from 2000 to 2010.

There was this huge explosion with digital cinema, of course and our cameras were changing and codecs we were using and we suddenly you’re getting to 4K and raw and all this stuff. Meanwhile, the editing systems were changing very much. I mean they were getting HD and whatnot. But, you know Final Cut.

Seven was like you can it can support h.264. It couldn’t really play that average that uses for know. So I was seeing that the software was having problems. So so I thought this is going to happen. So when Final Cut 10 came out in 2011 aside from it being a little bug lacking and feature lacking a features is the main thing aside from that.

The the I thought this is the foundation that the next generation of editing software needs to be built on so I believed in it when so you’re the one so you’re the guy with the one you’re the one I heard about it. Well before we before we go into that, well, it’s going to say this. Yeah, you ask the question of why why did you make this document?

Yeah. So let’s fast forward a little bit. I thought. At that time that maybe I can position myself to be part of this kind of Next Generation and and be kind of ahead of the curve and and so as years went by and I edited feature films on Final Cut Pro 10, you know, I. The opinions weren’t changing.

It was kind of like everybody just turned off and they stopped paying attention to what’s happening and I felt like I was the only person using the software and it was getting upgrades regularly and getting better and better and better and finally in about 2014-2015 ish. There was a final cut 10 community that was really starting to Rally around the software and when I started getting more involved in that community and I saw that they were all telling the same story about the horrible.

But look at where that’s is that today and nobody knows how awesome it is. That’s when I had this idea of you know, so this is a story there’s a story arc here about the resistance to check the logical change. And and why do we you know, why like this whole kind of like tools and storytellers and all these really interesting themes and that’s when I thought this would be a fun little documentary and I.

Maybe position myself and get my name out there by making this among among the professional editing Community. I could become a little more well-known and and get more opportunities from there. So wasn’t it definitely wasn’t like a I’m going to make tons of money off of this. It was I’m going to make a name for myself and hopefully get some more opportunities to.

You know do more filmmaking awesome projects. So that makes absolute sense. It’s absolutely a great marketing plan you using the film almost as a loss leader to get you more work more notoriety and to position yourself as a thought leader in this space make pretty much pretty and it’s and it’s. I think so.

I think it has worked. You know, you’re on the show so that helps, you know, you got on the show so that makes because I would have never in the middle. If you wouldn’t have made this movie. I would have never reach out to you. We wouldn’t have never contacted. So the movie has created multiple contacts for you throughout the industry.

So that’s amazing. And that’s something that a lot of filmmakers need to think about when they’re making their movies. It’s not always just about being rich and famous. If you go after such a niche and this is the niches of a niche Niche film I’ve ever heard of like it so deep in its it’s wonderful, but we have that screening in New York on Tuesday this week earlier this week and.

Emory Wells whose you know, the founder and president of frame IO M CEO free bio said this is probably the only documentary and probably will be the only documentary made about editing software ever. Like yeah, can you imagine like the Avid documentary or the premiere documentary? No one would care even us.

I would never watch an avid documentary like I’d be like maybe if I’m on a plane and I’m locked in its anything else but what I find fascinating about off the tracks, is that the community behind FCP behind Final Cut Pro. Was such a it was a massive Game Changer and and I want to explain to people who haven’t listened or haven’t, you know, use Final Cut Pro or didn’t understand the power of what it did when Final Cut Pro I want so I’m going to say when Final Cut Pro like three hit it started to become taken a little bit more seriously and with every every new version it started to grow and grow and grow to the point where it became a serious professional.

Editing system and I was an avid at her when I started out because I was the only thing I could that was the only thing that’s the only way you could get jobs and all that then when I wanted to open up my own shop, you know, I call ab ab and happens like that’s $150,000. I might go screw yourself and I saw this Final Cut Thing taken off of around me and I’m like, well I can buy system for under 10 grand.

You know within it wasn’t because the Final Cut is all the other stuff that you needed back then study drives and everything to to run SD and and there was an emotional attachment to this piece of software where I’ve rarely seen it in other pieces of software. I think that’s why your movie has an audience that people are really really interested in would you agree?

Yeah, there’s a huge passion for the original Final Cut Pro and I feel like this new community if I land and some of them are people who stuck with the platform but the Final Cut Pro 10 current Community is also extremely passionate and feels like we have this secret weapon, you know, and I think the original Final Cut Pro.

Was that in like 2003, you know through 2006 dish before it really started feeling like more of a mainstream tool. It was like and and you know people were in the mid-2000s. I think I think in 2003 if you said hey, I’m editing on Final Cut Pro you get like kind of weird looks and with Final Cut Pro 10 today.

You can get some weird looks listen son talking to a post production supervisor, like myself Who deliver films all the time and when someone says which rarely happens, but when someone said, what did you edit on Michael Final Cut Pro X, I’m like, oh God. Oh God. I’m never gonna get this at the color.

This is not gonna work well and and arguably it hasn’t back in the day because they were using. You know older versions of final Final Cut Pro X but first and let’s go back a little bit before we get into the deep geek. Why do you think the launch of Final Cut Pro X was such a disaster. I mean, I remember even watching I was watching Conan O’Brien and Conan O’Brien did a whole piece on it while his all his editors basically was just so pissed off that they did a segment on.

Why the editors he’s like, I don’t know what’s going on, but. My editors are very upset. Apparently, there’s this piece of software that’s changed and life is Ended as we know it. I’d like to know like literally I first time I’ve ever seen it. I mean, you’ve got Bloomberg and Fortune and like I’ve been looking it up as research for the documentary.

I don’t know anybody who didn’t publish a story about how bad that launch was it was everywhere and and I think a lot of people that’s the only thing they really know about Final Cut Pro 10, is this this. Horrible rollout and and it’s to the point that I’ve talked to film students who said when they’ve shown them I’m using Final Cut Pro 10 and they said hey, my professor says Apple doesn’t make that any more hmm people people like, oh apples making iPhones.

They’re just they abandoned. Yeah, yeah, they abandon everybody. So I mean, let’s Circle back to that the initial question. Why was that launch? So horrible? I’m going to start with the fact that. You know right when Apple was taking off in the pro video space, you know, they had shake and they had final cut studio come out and everything right around that time.

There was a couple other things happening one that OS my Mac OS went to 64 bit. The studio applications like Final Cut Pro did not go to 64-bit shake they reduce the price and announced that they were no longer going to continue making it past shake for so the VFX industry was all using Shake Lord of the Rings King Kong, you know you name it was composited with Shake.

Apple buys, it releases some updates and then says, you know what we don’t care about this Market. We’re killing this product, which was I mean Shake was an amazing piece of software. Yeah, so good. I mean I everyone used it and apple literally bought it and then just shoved it into the end. It killed it killed it and I think that’s what people were afraid of with Final Cut Pro X.

Yeah, and then Final Cut Pro 6 and then 7 7 especially was not much of an upgrade from six and even reduce the price and it was very underwhelming. Apple also pulled from NAB. They said we’re no longer going to be doing you’re only doing Apple our own Apple events. We’re not going to be on the show floor.

So I think there was already some things that may professionals. Question whether or not Apple was going to continue supporting them. And so and so that it was all lined up. And so basically everything hinged on 2011. What’s this new thing? There were rumors circulating around Steve Jobs even emailed someone back saying the next release is going to be awesome, which is in my documentary and.

And so people like there’s this anticipation are they do they love us? Are they going to do something amazing or they going to roll Shake into motion or they gonna you know, give us full color and Final Cut Pro and those were the expectations and the expectations weren’t changing the editing Paradigm.

In fact, I think the expectations is what we have with resolve 15. Yeah, exactly. That’s what people wanted in 2011. But instead Apple did what I predicted they were going to do which was build an editing platform with new ways of interacting with your footage like with skimming and film strips and and a magnetic timeline, which I didn’t fully realize until I saw what they’ve done but I knew that something like that was coming.

But everybody else that’s not where they were looking and that’s not what they wanted and listen resolve 15 and a lot of ways was exactly what I would have loved in 2008-2009 like and where my head was but then I saw the some of these new ideas and iMovie. I thought okay, they’re going to they’re going to make a huge shift here.

So that expectations were that and then they do this demo and I think the demo was just such a whirlwind. And so hard for people to wrap their minds around that, you know, there was a lot of negative reactions the next day and and then it was just kind of this waiting. Well, let’s wait and see what this going to be.

But I think everyone was scared. I was reading just a couple weeks ago. They were they were talking about the recession and they were interviewing Warren Buffett in an article and Warren. Buffett said something I feel like is directly applicable to this Final Cut 10 launch which was when when it comes to gaining people’s confidence.

That’s a slow process that happens one person at a time, but when it comes to fear, that’s something that happens to everyone all at once. And and I think that people were afraid because and this is the other component because if you’re running a business if your livelihood depends on a piece of software and a company and I mean everything it was it was Apple hardware and was Apple software and and you had and you were selling clients on the fact that you had these HD workflows and and everything was going to be delivered on time and then Apple stopped supporting trainers.

Stop supporting trainers. They dropped Final Cut 7 support completely and they said this is the new thing don’t forget and don’t forget your king. And don’t forget. You can’t go back to Final Cut 7 projects. So don’t forget open Final Cut 7 projects. That was actually this shock for me because I came home the day Final Cut Pro 10 came out was June 21st, 2011.

I coincidentally. Had a 2015 or so 2011-2015. That’d be great. No, I had a I had my 2011 MacBook Pro 15 inch and with Thunderbolt and I saw on the App Store Final Cut Pro. And then I was like cool and I was downloading it and in my head I’m like what if what if it has everything and I can open my old project so I never have to install final cut studio.

Well, I open it up and I try to open up a final cut 7 project and it doesn’t recognize it and I was like wait what and that’s when I Googled and saw everyone losing their minds losing their minds and I was like and I and kind of panic set in to me. What am I going to do? Like what I hate even. Even though I believed in the software what if everyone’s so mad that Apple just stops making this and where do I go?

And so people felt the band and I I just kept my eye on what they were doing while everyone else. Stopped and actually over the next six months. They did do things like XML and multicam and a lot of and addressed a lot of the concerns that people had but by that point two ladies other company, he was doing some really great marketing called Adobe and they were already like taking the abandoned trainers and the third party suppliers and vendors and people and kind of coddling them and saying it’s okay.

We’re here for you and even though. Thousand Eleven Premier also had a lot of limitations and missing features. It was a familiar Paradigm and Adobe started beefing up Premier. So that by 2012 when I when I say Final Cut became usable. Premiere was also usable. But Premiere was familiar and and everyone in stopping attention.

So there’s a lot happening there, you know, there’s competition from other vendors and there’s Apple just not reading their user base, right and and thinking that they were going to just be excited by the new thing like it was the new iPhone, you know, right right. I think they I think they got a little too cocky and they thought where Apple were just going to tell them.

The deal is yeah, and that’s fine with app, I guess with like and it doesn’t always work. Like people are still pissed off about the towers that the towers went away, you know of the MacBook the back Pros went away and they gave us the trash cans because I have a trash can but I would like to have X2, you know, if I’d love to be able to put a card in.

So I hear that they’re working on something new. We’ll see what happens. But but it doesn’t work all the time. And I think that’s what happened with Final Cut Pro X because when I saw it, I opened it up. I was like, well this sucks and I’m like, well I get and I I just said I just hunker down. I’m like I’m staying on Final Cut 7.

I stayed on Final Cut 7 till 2015. Wow, yeah. Yeah, I was on it and I did not all my projects were on it and I was still delivering so many movies would come in and rarely would get a Premiere project especially in the movies because Final Cut 7 was just so entrenched so I would get those movies to come in and I would be able to work with it and then I would export out to color and to app first of all to Apple color, but then I started going to resolve.

Yeah, then then resolve started piquing my interest because I got to a point where I’m like, I can’t I can’t work anymore like h.264 is and these larger files and I just couldn’t work anymore Final Cut Pro X was not even in my radar. I don’t I’d left I abandoned it. I was like, oh you guys going to abandon me while I’m going to abandon G just screw you man, and I was like I’m out and there was this beautiful new girl.

Her name was DaVinci Resolve. Yeah, and as well and and coincidentally some of the people that work on resolve were in those Original Classic Final Cut Pro days working on Final Cut Pro. So they you know, you had some friends there that they know exactly because like when I and I’d already learned DaVinci for color, but then editing was kind of like, oh, it’s like this edit tab.

It was very couldn’t use it. But then at 12 V came out and holy cow you can edit now. And then I added my first feature on it. And then I did shows on it. I’m like, oh my God, I could do everything here. And that’s just like it all just started to work. So now resolve is become my main thing, but I am intrigued with Final Cut Pro X because it’s just another tool if I have another tool in my toolbox.

Why wouldn’t I use it? Yeah, and I got resolved. I mean I was doing the light and free versions for a while and then they had it for sale on the app store for 4.99 when it was a thousand bucks, you know, so I’m like I was I’m gonna buy it because we resolve had by that point just become. Such a Swiss army knife because I don’t know what it can’t do.

I don’t think there’s anything it can’t do that now. Yeah, that was that was that now with 15 they could do literally anything you wanted to do. If you know how I mean where I where I kind of switched over and I did take the time to learn 10 and I love the performance and everything. There are they’re just little things that resolve can do to fill in the holes of you know, like for example, just making dailies for an avid editor.

Thing I’ve done to resolve or making a DCP is something I’ve used to resolve for or I don’t know just lots of little little stuff that I enjoy it but I but the editing experience for Final Cut 10 is something I did convert over to and it’s something I can’t really like go back from going back to tracks for me is very painful now because it just feels.

So much slower to me, which one’s what’s feels slower to you tracks like editing on tracks feels slower to me than using the magnetic timeline. You used your speaking and then the in the devil’s tongue, sir. I have no idea what you mean with this magnetic timeline. What are you on an iPhone editing?

I can’t work like I’m an old-school dude. No. No, I’m joking, but I’m actually cute. I don’t have the time right now to learn another piece of software, but it is something that I will probably bring into my workflow at one point or another. As it continues to grow but I still like my timeline stuff and it’s weird how editors we are creatures of habit.

We do not like change as a general statement. Like if I tell an avid editor that he’s got a cut on Final Cut. It’s like fact it’s like they’ll just like crack a bottle over the bar and like let’s go like I’m not kidding like, it’s your right. You’re absent my Wrong Am I Wrong tell me tell an editor that he has to work with another.

Piece of software and they will lose their Collective shit. I’m one of them and one part of it is especially I feel like with the older paradigms, you know with with track based editing an avid and then Final Cut and so on it took a lot of effort. In the first place to to master those tools and the learn all the hot keys and to get and you start getting in this ninja mode where you feel like you can do anything with it and you know, like I’m walking these tracks and I’m patching this and I’m moving this around and you’re hitting all the hotkeys and you just feel like a wizard because.

You know, you’ve got this idea in your head of I want to cut from this shot to that shot to this other shot and and I want these sound effects and whatever and you just you just start manipulating it and you just feel like you’re playing that instrument and you become proficient at it and all of a sudden, you know with something like 10.

It gets it’s like it’s like everyone learns learns the QWERTY keyboard layout hmm and with 10, they’re like and we just this is a more efficient keyboard, but we’ve moved everything around and it works like this and you never worked in use anything quite like that, but this is nothing. That’s a tough sell and and the irony is that if you take somebody who’s never learned any editing system and you teach them Final Cut Pro 10, they’re going to learn it a lot faster than somebody who’s never edited.

But if you but if you’ve taken that time to master an application like. Yeah, Final Cut Pro 10 is just a two-minute Planet. Our it’s another planet is totally bizarre, but II but also don’t you agree that was take the Apple did not he’s anyone into this like there was no easing into this new paradigm.

It’s not like, you know, hey, we are. We just turned on the camera for the first time in 1900 and then the next step is 4K like there was no no time to just ease people into this this new idea, which I don’t disagree with by any stretch. I think it might be where we need to go and might be another option of the tool set, but man Apple just just.

Fuck, you know, it’s it’s this whole thing of it goes back to that iPhone type of launch. They were very secretive about what they were doing. They were having Apple. Yeah, they were they were having internal conversations for years and there were debates. Why are there why is why are there some people that are working with resolve or working on resolve that were on the Final Cut Pro Team?

Well, they’re obviously there were disagreements at Apple about what they should do. And so they had to reconcile this internally, but they didn’t like realize that hey if this is such a dramatic thing internally than y that it’s definitely going to be even bigger deal to everybody else, but they just kind of treated it.

Like here’s this new shiny thing and it’s amazing and look what we can do and. Everybody’s like I don’t get it what so so now you’re making this documentary and you’re going down this road you’re contacting people and I’m sure it’s a very small community. So when people start hearing about this, what is the reaction when you call people up like Michael up and go.

Hey, I’m going to do an interview with you about what a disaster Final Cut Pro X was when they launched what was the reactions you guys when you got. Well, the first person I approached actually was Sam messman who was working a lot with this company called FCP works at the time. And then now he’s all on board.

He’s the seat the co-founder president of luma Forge and he’s and his whole thing is pushing Final Cut workflows. I saw him is the guy. Who is plugged into everybody who is promoting Final Cut Pro 10 new Sam? And so that was kind of my first Contact. I introduce myself at NAB. I emailed him afterwards.

I told him about this idea. He said that sounds cool. I said can we start contacting people like would you would you make introductions for me? And he said well. So often, you know write a write some more outlines do this do that. He would like say makeup make a little trailer just like steel footage from the internet make a little trailer.

So you’d give me a little things to do for about three months and he said what it’s real. I’ll reach out to everyone and that kind of bugged makes them like when it’s real. What do you mean like, it’s I get what he’s saying. I completely understand what you’re saying. Yeah, but I just like eager to just start introducing people.

Finally he. You know three months had gone by any animated very smart suggestion, which was hey, why don’t you plan on coming to this Final Cut Pro 10 creative Summit, which is like an annual thing. They’ve been doing for the last few years since to 2015. This was 2016 was talking to Sam, but now it’s been a few years they’ve been doing this and he’s like pretty much everybody on your list of people you want to interview is going to be there.

And then when you you’d mentioned Michael, I’m assuming you mean Michael Gionee well around the same time. I had put together this little teaser trailer sitting and I’d found clips of Michael Gionee talking about Final Cut Pro 10 because he actually was one in 2011. He was like guys calm down. This is their right.

This is the future of editing and everyone’s like yeah, Michael you’re insane, right? So I found all these clips and I and all I asked Michael choni for it. Do you think it’d be okay if I use these clips of you in my documentary, would you be cool with that? And he said yeah, I give you my permission to do that.

But I really am passionate about this subject and I’d really like you to come out and interview me. And I was like heck yeah, I’ll go do that. So so I had these creative Summit interviews lined up, you know, Sam reach out to them and everybody that I wanted to talk to you. There was like absolutely the sounds awesome.

Of course if you rallied the Geeks. Yeah. Well and the other thing to keep in mind as a lot of the people I wanted to interview our bike. Either software trainers or Plugin Developers for Final Cut Pro 10. So if they can tell the story of Final Cut Pro 10 and Advocate why they like it it just brings more sales to them, you know, so they’re all passionate about it, and they also have a business interest in supporting it.

That’s that’s part of it. Obviously some of the people editors and people I interviewed just are passionate about the software and they’ve had a lot of them had that like they hated it at first in fact Mike Matt store if he was an assistant editor on focus and now is a editor at Warner Brothers animation.

He tweeted that this is utterly Final Cut Pro 10 is utterly unusable, and he was really pissed about it, but then focused came across as a job that he could work. Come on in and he started looking into it and figuring it out and actually made it work for a feature film that we $100,000,000 feature film starring Will Smith.

I was is that I thought it was is that the movie I was like when you have to focus on like it can’t be the Will Smith movie it is that was edited in Final Cut Pro X. It was the first major motion picture edit in Final Cut Pro 10. Wow, that’s pretty that’s pretty and how many other movies I’m one of the moons and.

Well the same filmmakers whiskey-tango-foxtrot Geo Storm was originally cut on Final Cut 10, but then the studio did a test screening of the he didn’t like the film so they took it away. My understanding is they took it away from Dean Devlin and they who actually used used Final Cut Pro 10 on the show Leverage.

Yeah that I know. Yeah. Yeah, and yeah and Geo Storm was taken back over the studio. So I assume they recut it on Avid. There’s a lot of independent films that was a lot of foreign films, especially that have been cut on Final Cut Pro 10 one is called the Unknown Soldier which was actually the biggest movie in 2017 in Finland, the highest-grossing of it and their box office and it was you know, it was kind of 10.

So there’s the it’s actually in Europe. There’s a lot of there’s like a lot of people over there that are kind of secretly using Final Cut Pro 10 and in Hollywood. It’s like they just all went back to Avid and double down on Avid. And that’s for the most part but Focus was a movie where the filmmakers were.

Like, let’s let’s do this and and you actually think about it. They had to start doing that in 2013. Which is very very early in Final Cut to known only as a couple years old and everyone on the internet said there’s no way this could be used on a major motion picture, but that team figured it out and they did it and not only did they do it.

They actually found that they saved money and time by using Final Cut Pro 10 interesting interesting. Now when now you’re making this documentary, I’m assuming Apple gets wind of this. I’m assuming a nap. Was known for being very kind and gentle to people especially when they’re talking about products of theirs.

So I’m looking for everyone listening. I’m being facetious. Of course not Apple is is not that nice when it comes to this stuff. So what happened when Apple heard about this, you know, the interesting thing is there are there’s lots of. People working on Final Cut Pro 10 and I first had the pleasure of meeting a few of them when I went to the creative Summit while I was filming it and so some of the like designers and Engineers who I won’t like call out but there was a lot of curiosity and excitement and you know, it was but the same time I call I don’t know if I can live through that.

Can we just move past it? And and then from the marketing side the people who are in charge of marketing there was a lot of apprehension of course and worry and anxiety. What is this guy going to do and are we going to have to like sue him for all he’s got I don’t know if that if they thought that but but I don’t want to definitely but there’s nothing big nervous, but there’s all honesty they can’t do anything.

I know it’s you know, it’s a documentary documentary and it’s fair use and absolutely you can State your opinion. So so yeah, they but they you know, I was I was trying to reach out and reassure them that this would be good for them, but they didn’t necessarily believe me. And they again this is not I should make this very clear.

It’s not sponsored. It’s not endorsed and that was the biggest thing as they do not want to you know, they don’t want to like give me any money for this or whatever. They want this to be a totally independent thing which I appreciate because that’s a question. People ask us how much an Apple pay you this.

Yeah. Did Apple pay for this is Apple buy it? No, not at all. There is very independent of that. The end result I will say again without calling out specific people and Communications. I think they’re happy with it because it is pause. It’s a pause in the end. It’s a positive message and the stuff that it talks about with what they got wrong, especially with the initial release.

Not only is it fair and I think honest it says you need a story, you know, if you’re going to it’s part of the story and it’s what people who have been ignoring Final Cut Pro 10 need to have acknowledged, you know, this is and that’s what I think differentiates this from just like a puff piece for an ad.

Is right is that you know, we address this these concerns head-on in a way that Apple marketing could never do right from right? It’s absolutely the thing that the marketing that they need, you know, in order for people to kind of take another look so I was passionate enough to like go down that path and do that and do it independent of apple and do it and without their permission and with them even.

Questioning, you know and worrying about what I was doing. I think I can’t confirm any of that because it’s mostly just how I it’s what I read from the interactions I’ve had with certain people at events. That’s something that people probably don’t realize this apple even though they’re not like.

Always having their own big Booth. They don’t have their own Big Boost to NAB and and these events. They’re the they’re actually there so, you know where to look for them and you know who they are like you can go up and talk to them, but then you have these very like. One-sided conversations where they don’t answer any questions they may ask you a question.

Yes, Apple is very very quiet. They keep everything close to the to the to the to the breast without question. Now. I have one question for you meant why are people in our industry? So emotional about a piece of software? It’s a tool. I mean, you don’t see plumbers losing their minds over the plunger.

They use like am I wrong like you don’t see a carpenter like, you know about you know, so passionate about the hammer that they use, you know, I would I would say like anybody who works with tools is going to be they’re going to take a lot of consideration of what tools they’re using correctly, but they probably are not going to lose their.

You know, if a new power saw comes out or something that went differently there might learn it. You know, they say yeah, there is no documentary about the new power saw horrible launch of the power saw the Black and Decker did and then and then another company came in with their power saw and took over the market because of the hottest a horrible launch.

The other one was like it doesn’t you know, and they’re not following. It’s not like they’re like What’s the next version of this to Logan of you? Right the new Hammer going to be but I mean and it’s fair to be that way about software. But because that’s where I mean when it’s apples and oranges, you know, Hammer is different than an editing system.

But at the end of the day, it’s still a tool. So why are we as creators? So so so passionate about it, right? Like it’s the new version of ten comes out. Why weren’t people just kind of like, yeah. Whatever. I’m just going to go back to Avid. Like casually they were there so upset. There’s so much I’ve seen, you know in releasing the trailer and stuff.

I’ve seen like just pure hate spew from people what like internet will betrayed me. I can’t believe them they owed me and they didn’t deliver. I think it’s because remove the removing the tools. Like just filmmaking in general you have to have such a drive and passion to succeed and get anywhere and film because it’s so it’s you know, it’s getting easier now, but it’s still so hard to tell a story with film.

You know, it’s. Aren’t you know takes dedication but film requires money and collaborators and like every kind of art and craft that you can think of goes into it. So, I think it’s you know starts because we’re just passionate about telling stories through this medium and then that gets tied into the tools that enable us to do that.

So the original Final Cut Pro specially. Was something that was the beginning of the democratization of tools and and so suddenly, you know me as a high school kid. I could get my hands on it and put it on my own computer and I could make things happen with it. And so the tools that have this there’s an emotional sentimental component to it.

What’s even what’s still bizarre to me though is people with editing software? Our I feel like even more passionate about that than people are with cameras and that’s saying a lot because you know, people are passion about cameras. But if a new 8K, you know, 20 stop, you know, whatever black magic Rock camera or comes out like people are like, oh the new thing they’ll jump they’ll jump for it and maybe that’s why 10 wasn’t as shocking for me because I was also a camera guy so.

Like I was seeing that happened in the camera world and I think I mentioned that earlier and and not in the editing world and I was wanting that for the editing world but everybody yeah editors just didn’t want to so, I don’t know. I think it’s that kind of emotional bond with this is the thing that enables me to do the thing I liked and and it also took a lot of energy and dedication to master it and so to for a company to say.

That that was something that Apple didn’t do is they didn’t have the memorial service for seven right you because you would never think that you would need a memorial service for a piece of software but for some users, but for me, I that’s the logical person speaking Yeah for the Final Cut editor in me.

I agree with you one hundred and ten percent. Yeah, if they’d had some sort of like we know you love this. This is the amazing things we been on this amazing journey together. We hope you come on this next leg of the journey with this we’re going to you know, we’re going to continue to Support Final Cut 7 for the next year and but that was just something Apple felt like if they if they had this the counter argument to that is.

If you got this new thing coming out and you continue supporting the old thing and letting people know you’re going to get rid of it. Well, they almost creates some sort of false. Hope of. Well, maybe they’re just experimenting with this new thing and if we all say the new thing is terrible, then we get to keep the old thing alive for the fascinating.

It’s a fascinating conversation that it really is the kind of a conundrum, right? You know that like, how do you deal the and then because Apple wasn’t able to come out, you know going back to this whole secretive thing. They weren’t able to come out and ask people questions and talk to people openly about this big transition.

They weren’t able to kind of do the market research to figure out well how people are how are they going to react? I mean, I know they know some people be pissed but I don’t think you know, Randy you Billows expected that Conan O’Brien was going to mock his. Baby, right horrible we can’t even imagine how that fell and the users.

You know, I here’s another element to you mentioned the internet. I think the internet also changes things and this is kind of an interesting comparison, but just like think about if the Last Jedi had come out 20 years ago or 10 years ago. Do you think I mean and whatever opinions you might have about the Last Jedi aside, do you think that the anger and hatred and all the YouTube videos that I’ve seen uploaded about?

How terrible Ryan Johnson is and how horrible this movie is. I don’t think that the hate for it would have been as strong in a pre-social media era. I mean look the the prequels survived. Can you imagine if the prequels comment came out now? Yeah and generally in the media even though people kind of said, oh jar jar sucks the next episode to you know, so to everyone like add hi-ho.

And the initial reaction was always better than Phantom Menace and then Revenge of the Sith in general. People were like, oh, yeah. It’s like the best one of these three movies and some people even said it’s second to Empire. And of course the land that’s not really but I’m just saying that was what was being written sure.

That’s not necessarily the truth, but it was because you know, the. The naysayers couldn’t bond together as easily as they can on social media. Yeah, of course since the last Jedi gets like slammed and I you know, I have my own complaints with it, but the level that it gets slammed. I’m like, woah, and I think the same can be said for something like Final Cut Pro 10 coming out is you and you know, this is another interesting thing is.

You’re making software for storytellers and people who know how to communicate really really well, and now they have a platform on social media to be able to communicate their thoughts to everyone right and it can bond together. So it’s like this perfect storm of. Um, you know, don’t piss off the like they pissed off a group of people that you know have the skills to fight have the skills to fight back exactly and it’s not a huge if you think about it and the population of the world.

I mean, there’s not that many professional film and television editors know there isn’t there’s they’re not that many but it they are powerful. Yep, very dense and then I’m excited to say that off the tracks is available on. If HTV which is extremely exciting to thank you for bringing it to the tribes of the tribe can see it and experience what we went through all those years ago and I will be giving Final Cut Pro X a try in the future when I have a second to breathe and try to learn a new piece of software, but I’m interested in it sounds a very interesting piece of software now that.

Yeah, you know I always like to be the rebel I’ve always been outside the box and outside the party as they say so I seems like Final Cut Pro X is definitely far out there because I think resolve is out there. Your resolve is outside the box but like. Final Cut Pro X is outside of resolves box. Yeah.

It’s a totally different Paradigm. And I think I think people can watch the film and kind of see what was the thinking behind the magnetic timeline. Why why did they go for this Paradigm in and why is it why did Apple kind of broaden the market and and you know, it’s an interesting thing to look at they made the software easier.

For new users and and made it simpler in some ways, but then people assume that it’s also not capable and deep but as we mentioned, you know, it has been used on some feature films and it proved itself. So the film goes I’ll let the film kind of speak for itself in that but there’s that we definitely go into a lot of the thinking behind.

What the oh there’s the exit explaining that Apple didn’t do is in the movie theater. You’re doing Apple shops. Are you doing God’s work sir? You’re doing God’s work in the editing World, sir. Thank you. Yeah, now I’m gonna ask you a few questions. I ask all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker wanted to break into the business today?

There’s nothing really stopping you from going out and learning storytelling we talked about at the beginning of this my own experience, you know using VHS and height tapes and everything looking like garbage and sounding like garbage and but now you don’t have those technical limitations you if you got a smart phone that can shoot HD or 4K video you’re way ahead of where I was at and and you can share that with everybody and you can get feedback.

So. Just do it like find a story whatever it is. Shoot some short videos share it with people learn and grow. There’s there’s really nothing stopping you from from starting. There’s no you don’t have to buy the hundred and fifty thousand dollar. You know, you can just do horrible and I’m just just just I can’t I can’t stand out of it.

Sorry. It’s passionate as I am about Final Cut. I am equally as passionate about hating average on many many levels as a person who has to deal with their work flow coming out also as a person who who look to them from like, hey guys, I am on your time your side. I want to open a business around your.

And they said screw you you little little peon and I said really, okay and. That’s where we are today. But anyway, that’s on a side note. I just ramble. I apologize. All right, anytime I get the passionate anytime I get to to tabash I have it I do. But anyway, they’re definitely they definitely not position themselves for the independent content creator filmmaker.

I think beginning. Well not now either. Are you kidding me? No, never get an independent film with an avid, but I honestly do think that. That company if they don’t change which they are as entrenched in their way of doing things as any company I’ve ever seen if they don’t change to the reality of where this business is going.

They will go under because their entire business model is based around the studio system around. Well, here’s something that shouldn’t I don’t know if it’s a secret or not, but I’ve heard from multiple people that. Before 10 came out like in a hypothetical world if Final Cut Pro 8 had come out that would have been it for Avid that would have they would have been done.

They were so close to going out of business really 2010 and 2011. The thing that kept them alive. Is that professional Market who is leaving and Mass to go to Final Cut Pro being scared about 10 and coming back to. And that’s what’s kept them on life support and I don’t know how they stay in business actually.

So I think you’re right. I think it’s all pretty soon. It’s all it’s all studio-based stuff because they have a mentality and older mentality where the like the studio system is the only game in town. But the thing is that what Apple figured out and what resolve figured out is making very expensive.

Gadgets that only a handful of people can buy is a dangerous business model, which is exactly why when resolving Blackmagic bought DaVinci, which used to be a million dollars sweet. They said no this doesn’t make any sense to us. We are going to now give it away. Run and you know, it’s working definitely for resolve and for Final Cut because it is so approachable for users and it’s also a very cost-effective tool or you know, it doesn’t cost very much at all.

It actually they’ve actually sold like around 3 million copies of the software now, so that’s like you could add up all the other professional nles and they don’t do there’s not they haven’t sold. Half that. I mean, it’s really amazing and and I was just flying back from New York and one of the guys those talking to the airport and it’s like oh were you here for actually we’re on the shuttle ride to the airport and he’s somebody who was out for conference for his church organization and he’s like, oh Final Cut Pro 10.

Oh, yeah. I have that. I use it once a week to make these videos for my church. That’s a totally. He doesn’t consider himself a filmmaker at all. Right, but he’s using a pro. He needs a professional video tool and that’s a market that at that Apple saw this broader Market that yeah, you’re right.

I’ve it’s completely ignore not only independent filmmaker, but just your regular YouTuber content creator just somebody needs to make a video for their Church. There’s so videos being used in so many ways now and I guess this ties back into if you’re just starting out. You the tools are in your hand, you know to get started and get going and it doesn’t cost nearly as much the prices keep coming down on the quality keeps coming going up.

So just do it. Now. What book had the biggest impact in your life or career?  Just one just one. That’s all you’re allowed to say man tough to narrow down to one but. I feel like in recent history. There’s so many making up books and things but I won’t go off on all those I really like the book creativity Inc.

The Ed catmull wrote such a beautiful book. I mean, I know that their ideals that even Pixar doesn’t live up to all the time given the recent history with John Lasseter. Yeah. Yes, it’s me. It breaks my heart but the principles and the stuff that Ed catmull talks about in that book a Believer true and I think the filmmaking world would be a better place if if everybody could like strive for that.

Level of collaboration and openness and honesty in the process. That’s what it needs. It doesn’t need pissing contests. It doesn’t need you know people like I just don’t like the top down management that you specially see in studio systems. I love the open collaboration and an independent films.

You know that has to happen the director can’t think hey, I’m better than everybody here know I’m the artist. Obviously you have not been never never get they’ll never get any work done. You know, you’ve definitely got a you definitely got to listen and creativity ink just give some fantastic ideas of how to brainstorm and work together and and strive for.

Just great storytelling that’s inspirational for me. I would obviously have not spent time on an independent film set because the directors I’ve met.

I’m joking. I know you have I know you have but I don’t know what magical world were all of them. Everyone’s all collaborative in the director doesn’t think he knows everything. She knows everything. There’s been both I’ve seen both but but you know, it kills the film. I feel like when we. And put somebody’s just kiss that ego and arrogance and you know, it’s tough because in order to get started in film you have to have confidence.

Hmm, but you can’t have so much confidence that it becomes arrogance. There’s a fine balance ER now. What is the lesson that took the longest to learn while either in the film business or in life? Listen that. Well, maybe just what I just said. Don’t let your confidence turn into arrogance. Got it.

That that’s you know, I’m speaking for my own like yeah learning to listen to people and learning to it was especially as an editor where you you have figure out that. Is interesting because editing is in a way of Dark Art and so little do all these things that the director and producers don’t realize you’re doing to structure the story and so you get but then there’s a little bit of Pride Associated to that and if when they want you to change things and you feel like you’ve kind of mastered what your craft for me that that first that was kind of a hard thing.

Like learn, but but now and actually this ties into Final Cut Pro 10 Final Cut Pro 10 because I’ve embraced this kind of magnetic timeline and way of working. I feel a lot more comfortable. Making changes on the Fly and just trying things where as before because I was managing tracks and turning them on and off and I had these sound effects lined up and these music cues and these titles I could manage that but it would take a few steps to make sure that things didn’t get knocked out of sync and and as a result when I was working with producers and clients.

And they were asking me to make changes. I would get into the whole discussion of whether or not we should actually do that change. And this was this isn’t by the way not so much in the rough cut period this is like we’ve been working on this for a while and all of a sudden they’re like, I just want to try this shot here and you’re like, okay if I put that shot here after this this this this and this and then that would lead me into.

Okay. Are you sure you really want to do it? Let’s picture in our head. Well now with 10 and the Magnetic timeline. I’m like you want to try it, okay. And I’ve had that moment to where they start into their like they started into their counter defense before I start talking because they figure I’m going to say, well you sure you really want to do this and they’re like, well, I really want to do this because did it I’m like no.

No, it’s cool watch and like, oh, yeah, that doesn’t work or yeah that works, but I’m much more flexible. So that’s that’s two sided like for me the software is helped me with that but. Also, I think even whatever software using you need to be open to suggestions and ideas and trying everything in order to end up with the best quality work fair enough, then let’s try to learn and the three favorite films of all time.

Three favorite movies of all time it changes depending on what mood I’m in is everybody’s yes, and and what and what? Yeah, I mean, I would definitely put. Okay, I’m just going to say these three and I know that tomorrow my answer would be totally different an hour from now 15 minutes from now. May I answer be different but I think Raiders of the Lost Ark Empire Strikes Back and Fellowship of the Ring would be up there.

All right that good lust yeah. I have a lot of others dramas Shawshank Redemption Beautiful Mind whatever but they. It’s like a little Carousel they rotate absolutely absolutely and where can people find you and your work. So I think right now off the tracks movie.com. And Fedora pictures.com are the two best places to kind of see what I’m up to and and what I’m doing very cool, man.

And again, thank you so much for allowing us at IFH TV to host your amazing film and share it with our community. So thanks again man. I appreciate it and thank you for geeking out with me and talking editing talk because it’s rare that I actually have these kind of ridiculous conversations about software and editing and tracks and magnetic.

Magical who I was well, if you wanted to do a follow-up, there’s a whole nother side of this about independent film distribution. And because you know, I didn’t just edit. No. No, you did the whole the whole independent documentary and correct know exactly. I actually was I did have a question but it’s like we are over an hour and ten minutes and I don’t want another for another show.

Maybe I just don’t I don’t want to push my audience to farm like look Alex. We’ve been talking about Final Cut Pro X. For an hour now. Can we move it along? No, but thank you so much for that. I appreciate your time. Yeah, absolutely. It was a pleasure to be on there and I’m excited for everybody in the tribe to see it and and hopefully get some perspectives and ideas that they haven’t had before Oscar heard before.

Thanks again, man. Yep. Thank you. I want to thank Brad for coming on the show and just geeking out with me over Final Cut Pro editing software and just getting in deep into the weeds. Of the editors mind, which is a very very scary place if I do say so myself, but thanks again Brad. I appreciate it.

And if you guys want to watch the movie, which if you’re interested at all in this kind of stuff, it is an amazing documentary. That’s why I went after this documentary for IFH. Just head over to indie film hustle dot TV sign up and you’ll be able to get access to it. I will be putting the links to the put the trailer on in the show notes and links to everything we discussed in the episode at Indy for monster.com /to seven eight and also as a bonus the next episode that we’re going to have episode 279 is going to be Brad again.

But this time we’re going to just talk strictly about his distribution because he self distributed this film. All by himself and it was an amazing, you know, we touched on it a little bit in this interview, but we want to ask them to come back just to talk about his experience in self Distributing a very Niche documentary and he’s learned a lot and he’s sure he drops major knowledge bombs on the tribe and this next interview.

So keep an eye out on that next week. And if you haven’t already please head over to filmmaking podcast.com and leave the show a good review. It really helps to show out helps us get more information. Out to more filmmakers if we get higher ranked on iTunes. I really do truly appreciate your time and support guys and as always keep that hustle going keep that dream alive, and I’ll talk to you soon.

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