IFH 249: How to Breakdown the Door in Hollywood with Carole Kirschner

Welcome to the indie film hustle  podcast episode number 249 every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once you grow up. Pablo Picasso broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It’s the indie film hustle podcast where we show you how to survive and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film business.

And here’s your host Alex Ferrari film Hustlers to another episode of the podcast. I am your humble host Alex Ferrari. Today’s episode is brought to you by Black Box black box is a new platform and community. That is all about Financial Freedom for. Like you if you join block box, you will be transformed from being a worker to being a maker of your own content and you’ll be making steady passive income from the global market Black Box currently allows you to upload your stock footage once get it too many Global agencies and then allows you to share that passive income stream with your collaborators, whether you want to submit old footage that’s been sitting around in your hard drives or create brand new content black box is for you.

It’s really quite revolutionary with. Box filmmakers can concentrate on making great content while block box takes care of all the business BS just visit w-w-w Today’s Show is also sponsored by Studio unknown Studio known as a crack team of audio post professionals known for Quality sound on any Indie budget whether you need a lush surround sound mix or a quick Festival submission pass Studio known can help you with all of your posts sound needs from sound design and.

To Foley and even a custom score contact Studio known and mention the indie film also podcast and you’ll get 50% off one day of ADR or 10% off your complete post sound package. Just go to Studio unknown. Now today’s guest is Carol Kirchner. Carol has been in the business for a few decades now and she started out working with a little-known director by the name of Steven Spielberg.

She was the vice president of ambulance first television. Apartment so she was there at the very beginning when Steven Spielberg was getting into television. She now runs the CBS diversity writers program. She is also the director of the wga showrunner training program and she’s an entertainment career coach, which means that she shows you how to actually break through and break in to the business.

Now, I’ve talked to Carol extensively after this interview and we’ve talked about the business and I got to tell you she really knows her stuff. She knows how the game is played. She knows what those Unwritten rules are of Hollywood. So if you’re interested in trying to break into Hollywood into the Hollywood System, this is the podcast you need to be listening to because Carol really knows her stuff.

She also has a course called the Hollywood boot camp, which kind of takes you through a lot of her Concepts on how to break in and actually maintain a career in the business, and she also wrote the book Hollywood Game Plan had a landed a job in film television and Digital entertainment. She is a wealth of information.

So sit back get ready to take some notes and enjoy my conversation with Carol Kirchner. I like to welcome the show Carol Kirchner. Thank you so much for. On the show. Hi, I’m excited to be here. I’m excited to have you on as well because you you are a unique guess because you work with writers. But yet you also coach a lot about how to make it in the business and you you have the street cred to back that statement up.

Well, I do a lot of things it’s true. Yes you are you are Jack of all trades and I think we all have to be a little bit of that nowadays. Uh to even survive in this business or in the world in general. So first and foremost, how did you get into the business? Well, the first thing I did in the business was I was a stand-up comic and uh loved it, but it was really clear that I wasn’t.

Whoopi Goldberg, you know Sarah Silverman and if you’re not one of them your life is a stand-up comic is traveling 300 days a year and being treated like dirt. So yeah, I have a lot of friends who are stand-ups. It’s brutal. It is brutal and and I needed more uh respect actually touche. So I am I went to the other side of the desk.

I was with a small television production company. Then I went to CBS in comedy development. And from there. I was asked to start Steven Spielberg’s first ambolyn, uh television Department. Who’s this the speaker? Uh, nobody nobody knows him. No one knows if she’s season. He’s a young up-and-comer got it.

He’s an up-and-comer in the interesting thing. When I was there was I realized the three most powerful words in the entertainment industry are Stephen would like and doors open like crazy. It’s true. That’s a guts great. Those are very powerful words. Yeah, and um, so after that I worked at a couple of international companies being there us development department and then um became a consultant because my kid was two years old.

I was traveling all the time and said why am I a mom if I can’t be with my kids so became a consultant and as a consultant I created the CBS diversity writers program, which I’m very proud of. Uh 100 people have gone through it and we’ve launched the career of 60 writers of color and we now have in our alumni three showrunners five people that have Pilots including a script commitment at HBO and um, a lot of Cody PS and people that are coming up the ranks and because of my work with CBS.

I was asked to help Jeff melvoin create the curriculum for the wga showrunner. Program and because of that I was asked to be the director of the humanitas new voices program. So CBS is for baby writers Humana for emerging writers and the wga training program is for the highest people in the television business, and I’m also an author and a speaker and.

And entertainment career coach. I work with lots of screenwriters and other kinds of filmmakers. So during your time at all of these, uh these companies. I’m sure you heard a couple of pitches. Yeah, you know just one or two, but when I added it up it was kind of shocking. Um, I’ve heard more than 3,000 pitches.

I’ve read more than 5,000 scripts. Um, I’ve been involved in buying hundreds of scripts and developing dozens of television series, that’s insane. So so what are some of the key elements you look for in a pitch? Great question, you know everybody says passion and I absolutely look for passion. Um, that’s only get you so far it’ll only get to the thing to remember is that a pitch is a carefully crafted.

Performance and what I look for in a television pitch are the first thing is the characters, you know first and foremost and can these characters and the conflict between the characters sustained? A hundred episodes that that is what’s different between uh TV pitch and the film pitch and 10 the central concept and the conflict that’s inherent in the central conflict support 100 episodes.

Um, then I look for and going back to characters, you know, it’s it’s truly a fresh character. It’s a fresh. Take on a character and one of the things not to do in a pitch when you’re talkin about your characters is do a laundry list. You know, Alex Ferrari is a quirky filmmaker and um his stay-at-home wife is uh, very interested in playing the piano and the way you want to introduce characters is through a story septum in a scene.

And then you want to talk about the hook and the hook has to be why would people watch this in a universe of 485 television series that are scripted and you need a strong hook. Um, then you need to talk about the world. And why is this a new Take On The World super important is the tone and the genre and most writers.

Don’t really get what tone is and when you’re describing tone, it’s really helpful to talk about or reference other films or TV shows people often when they do that. They think oh, uh, this is a procedural. So I’m going to talk about another procedural but that’s not the tone and forgive me for people who know this.

It’s just so many people I work with don’t really understand this. Tone is how you tell the story. Are you NCIS Los Angeles or are you Ray Donovan? There’s a very different tone. Right? And you know, if you’re a TV series you want to know what your pilot’s story is, but you’re not going to go beat by a beat when I was at CBS and amblin when people did that my eyes would glaze over and and I say, please stop internally, you know.

Try to be as nice as possible. I was I was pretty nice and um, then the last thing is knowing what the basic arcs are for Five Seasons. All you need is a short paragraph on what happens in that season, you know how the character moves from the beginning to the end and of that season and how the storyline evolves from the beginning to the end of that season.

Okay, and um see so for tones like a perfect example would be like modern family and big bang are both very different. They’re both number one comedies and they’re both 30 minute comedies, but the tones are completely different completely different. Um, it’s like the difference between New Girl and insecure totally different, right?

Now when you were working with Steven Spielberg at amblin, what were some of the things you learned from that experience that you can kind of give us tips? Sure other than the three most powerful words are Stephen would like and you have to have some sort of connection between Stephen with that for that to work.

Yes. Yeah. Well, if you’re running his television division then have that, excuse me, one second. What did I learn? Well, I learned that Steven has a very short attention span. I mean he’s brilliant, but you have to grab him in the first minute or two. Um, and he’s really only interested in high quality Concepts and series ideas something he would be proud to put his name on what you what years were you there with him?

Uh, I was there from 1988 to 1990. So it was a very it was a hundred years ago. And it was was during the that was before or after amazing stories. That was right after amazing stores Amazing Stories did well. Yeah and what happened is that he was at Universal they loved him of course and wanted him to be happy.

And so they said why don’t you start television Division and. Here’s the interesting thing. He was hoping I mean the company was hoping that there were a number of films that could be turned into television series. Um, and the networks are very excited because they thought they were going to get.

Indiana Jones and he was thinking more Harry and the Hendersons. So, um, there was a little um, there was a little disconnect there. But and we did do Harry and the Hendersons and was was there show Harry there was there was it was on a cable channel. Um, and um, we did Tiny Toons which was auction.

Yeah, it was really you want to know how it started. Please please. I love to know that story of that because that was pretty groundbreaking pretty edgy For What If for the family, um, so the guy that was head of merchandising for Universal came in and. Said plush toys and I went yes, and he said if we did Looney Tunes as small characters as young young characters think about more of the plush toys we could sell and that that was a Genesis of it.

And then we had great writers come in and and wonderful, um artists and every character. Design was approved by Steven one day. I had to take seven flights in one day to get to his remote location to have him sign off on a character design this before before the internet way before the internet.

Um, the internet wasn’t even a twinkle in a Millennials. So, you know, his hand is really on everything. And um, we have a private Chef. So that was really nice. That’s um trying to think answering your question. What else I learn there. I learned that you have to be Discerning. Um, you don’t throw a lot of stuff against the wall with Stephen you really really really.

Uh go through and carefully determine which ones to bring to him because he has so much going on. Yes, and uh, he really respects writers and he respects things that are fun and entertaining you could totally get him in raptures. If you have a concept that he’s interested in now what during your tenure there, I’m assuming you had some some hits and I’m assuming you had.

Some not so big hits. What did you learn from the failures and from the from the successes during while you during your tenure? Well, you know what I go back to what the pitch is what the project is because even if you’re at ambolyn, there’s Adeline shows that don’t succeed. It is the difference between them.

Our shows that succeed are characters that we haven’t seen in that way before and the stories that are being told are being told in a fresh way. There’s not that many new stories by that’s what the approach is and. It’s really having a concept and characters. This is so obvious, you know that connect with the audience but that is entertaining what you know, I think there’s two kinds of shows and probably two kinds of movies as well and one is the should watch like.

This is important with a capital I and then there’s half to watch want to watch because it’s so entertaining and you don’t want to go for the. Hath to watch you can put half to watch elements into must watch wanna watch. Um can’t wait to watch but you don’t want to leave with important with the capital.

I know you do not so much because then turns into like a school project. Yes, yes and the lesson and and people don’t turn to entertainment for lessons for the most part, you know, there’s exceptions to everything if you’re if you’re a good writer you can sneak some of that stuff in absolutely and you should it makes it it gives it depth but but don’t lead with it.

Absolutely. Now what is um, what are some of the biggest mistakes you see beginning writers make. Oh, I love that question. Um, I mean that I love that question because I I I don’t want people to make mistakes and if I can help them not make mistakes. Um, one of them steaks is giving people is getting your script out before it’s ready.

Um and thinking, you know what, you know, this is a draft and and there’s other things I’m going to do, but I want to get this to this manager or agent right away. Don’t do that. Have your script vetted by a number of people before you. Do that golden opportunity because the truth is you have one shot and you and would you agree the same thing with go for a film once it’s done don’t rush it out to a festival or Russian out to a producer without sound without color.

Make sure the cuts tight make sure you see a lot of people watch it and take notes and things like that. Absolutely. Make sure your soundtrack is there um if there’s always the one you’re going to use I you know the music, um, the cues I mean. Any material, you know, I call it being blazing hot and it doesn’t matter whether it’s a script a web series a short or a feature.

It has to be incredible it has, you know, good work sometimes goes unnoticed, but great work never does and you want your project. To be great blazing hot before you get it out there. You should have a community a group of people who you trust who will be honest with you. Hopefully kind but honest and you know, it’s ready when everybody that you should show it to those.

Wow, that’s great you’re there. And I honestly I think kind is when it comes in that world kind is a bit overrated. If you have some friends who can tell you the truth because the world isn’t. Be kind to you if you don’t send it out in the proper way. It’s true, but you don’t have to decimate.

Absolutely I get you agitate constructive constructive. It should be constructive. It should be honest. You shouldn’t hold back but don’t be abusive. Don’t be don’t be a dick. That’s what I think. That’s the best that is the best advice out of anything anyone’s ever said in this business. Just don’t be a dick.

Don’t be a dick and because you know producers Executives we have the life. To shortlist and if you get on that, you’re not gonna get more than one chance. Oh, that’s because great. That’s a great term life is too short list because you’re right even and I’m sure you’ve met these people the most talented what like just genius kind of talents and experience but they’re dicks.

And yeah, it’s the L. T s MIT life is too short and you get one shot. Now you talk a lot about the unwritten rules in the film business. Can you can you share a few of these Unwritten rules? Yes. I certainly can. One of them is understanding that this is a business. Um, it looks really casual everybody loved you and I always have a sane in this town.

Nobody likes anything. They love it until I stopped returning your calls, right? Um, the unwritten rule is. Another Unwritten rule is you never back somebody into a corner by asking them for something you always give them a gracious out. Uh, will you read my script? That’s uh, that’s bad. What you want to say is I know how busy you are or will you look at my real?

Uh, we watch my web series. Um, You say something like I know how busy you are. Um, if you have the time and and you can spare the time if you’d be willing to look at my fill in the blank and give me your thoughts whenever you have the time. I I really appreciate it. And if you don’t have the time if there’s someone in your office that would look at it.

I would really appreciate that too. So it’s. Don’t back somebody into a corner. It’s knowing your story and being memorable everybody in this business, you know, filmmakers directors writers producers. Your storytellers. So your personal story should be memorable. Um and people that don’t know what their story is and I work a lot with clients and my people at CBS on how you craft what I call your personal a story which um, which is a.

Chronological narrative of your life with you as the protagonist highlighting what’s colorful and successes another mistake that people make is being too intimate too quickly and I’m not talkin about being sexually intimate. I’m talkin about telling familiar familiar familiar. Hi. Let me tell you about my eating disorder.

Hi, you know, um, I’m by the color, but that doesn’t get in the way of my work. Um, you don’t want to do that. It’s really important to follow up. I think that thinks so many people feel self-conscious about following up because it feels uncomfortable. You don’t want to bug people but there’s there’s the right way to follow up and you definitely want to stay on people’s radar.

Another mistake is those obnoxious people at parties and networking events that just talk non-stopping. You just do monologues. Yeah, it’s you know, no one wants to be with you people will say I’ve got to go to the bathroom, you know, just because. It should be a dialogue all the time. And would you agree that in those in those uh parties situations when you find someone who’s just non-stop talking about themselves and do not even care a bit about who you are or even what you’re interested in.

They’re just there to hear themselves speak. I’m sure you’ve run into a couple of those during your tenure. Yes, and it makes me want to run the other way. Actually, it makes me want to smack them and say stop it now tears. How would you know, I’m curious though. Do you find people that are successful in the business doing that as well as people trying to break into the business doing that at a party?

Let’s say. You know, there are narcissists everywhere. And yes there. Yes. There are I think our business has a bigger share of it perhaps than others. Okay and very successful, you know, super successful people generally are more, uh willing to have an on, you know, not an honest conversation because nobody’s really honest but to have a.

Casual conversation but there are people that have had some success who are so full of themselves and they don’t understand social manners. And so yeah, you’ll get that. I see it in newcomers. I see it in um, unfortunately an experienced professionals as well. It’s more of a personality disorder if you ask me and um and manners.

Just again, just don’t be a dick. Don’t be just don’t be a dick and I don’t mean just man. I mean women to you. Don’t be nobody should be in there period period now what are some key elements you see in people who not only are able to break into the business but able to thrive in the business that is a gret a great question the first when I sort of studied.

People who were enormously successful over all these years I decided I wanted to know there’s four things that they all have in common and number one is blazing hot material. Their material is exceptional and if it’s not it means their aunt is the president of a studio or network. Um, there’s that.

There’s that so lazy and hot material and then a really smart self marketing strategy. They know how to talk about themselves. Um, and again when I work with clients I break it into three categories. There’s your personal log line, which is what do you do and that’s your answer when you’re in when you’re at a party or a networking event.

Or meeting and then there’s the longer one which is at personal a story. I talked about which which answers the question. So tell me about yourself and then there’s something I call your personal nuggets, which is the anecdotes of your life that um show why you’re different why your memorable because you know, as an executive I would meet with six or seven people in a day and what you want when you walk out of that door for me to remember who you are.

And uh, so it’s blazing hot material a smart self marketing strategy and then a Vibrant Community of people where you have mutually beneficial relationships and then being industry Savvy, you know not being tone deaf about what’s going on knowing who the players are knowing what the trends are so so I should have be pitching Harvey Weinstein right now is what you’re saying.

You know when unless you’re willing to go to the island that is on yes, exactly. Right? He’s not gonna get this year not so much maybe not but that’s a we laugh but that’s a perfect example of someone, you know that you know, he’s completely tone-deaf what’s going on in the business. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, you you yeah. Yeah, it’s it’s being smart. And if you have all those four categories going for you you in my opinion are going to be successful and you’re not a dick you’re going to be successful. I was I was in a meeting once with an agent, uh, one of the highfalutin, uh agencies and they um, they said what I’m looking for in a director is a politician, uh, an artist a politician and a businessman.

And that’s absolutely and that’s why Spielberg and Cameron and Del Toro and Nolan these guys have all three of those things. And I I couldn’t agree with you more. It’s true. Right? It’s like you really do need to be you have to understand you have to be an artist first, but you have to understand business and you also have to be a politician because you can’t you can’t just kind of go in there and just you know, throw your weight around until like, you know, now James Cameron can do that because he’s James Cameron.

Uh, Steven Spielberg can do that Nolan could do that, you know, they they’re at a certain. Level in the business that if they want they can go throw their weight around a little bit. Um, because I have a track record but generally speaking on the way up and even while you’re there you should always have be those three people and I think Spielberg, uh, Steven is probably the poster child for that because I think he has that do would you agree?

Yes. Absolutely. He is a business man. I mean clearly he’s an artist. We know his Artistry. Yes. He’s a really shrewd businessman and. He’s he’s not a day. He’s a pleasure to be around. You know, he’s nice. He self-effacing. He’s um soft-spoken. He’s great. I mean, um, but those are those elements that you really should look into as as as as core elements of even in a writer, uh, as well as a director producer.

Those are three elements you really have to understand and embrace. Would you absolutely and I I couldn’t agree more and and another part of that is knowing how to manage up. And manage down so you so you are treating your producer or your executive well, but you’re also treating the assistant well because I’ll tell you a story when I was hiring, uh a head of development for um from for amblin.

Uh, there was a guy who I had great credentials, but he was really a jerk to my assistant and she told me about it. Even though we had a really good meeting. I didn’t hire him right because uh and and what that’s one of the reasons because assistants are The Gatekeepers to their boss and the other is everybody starts in this business as an assistant.

And another story is when I was at CBS, there was a big-time showrunner who came in and every meeting we had with him. He said hi. Nice to meet you. He he didn’t remember who I was and then when I went to amblin, he wanted to set up a meeting and I didn’t say I don’t remember who you are. I had the meeting but I wasn’t predisposed to buy from him.

Right? Right, and that was a political move as well to get to take the meeting because I really didn’t want to meet with him soon back. Then I was an enthusiastic about it. But of course I was going to meet with him, um, because this but politics you have to do certain things like that sometimes.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I’ll tell you a mistake I made because I made which is why I wrote my book because um. I I wanted somebody to teach me how to do it. So I wouldn’t step on land mines because I stepped on Plenty of them. Ultimately. I learned because I moved up in the business but here’s an example of what not to do.

I was doing a general meeting because when I left that small production company that I started at I waged a campaign to get my next job and and that’s what you have to do and I met with a very high up well. I met with the president of Fox television and when this very nice woman came in I asked her for a Diet Coke and I could see what I could see at this.

It turned out to be Andrea Baines who is the president of Fox at the time and how that meeting. Uh-uh. I wasn’t the only person in the meeting. So I was with my bosses. So that may be even worse. But you know what? I apologize profusely. I sent her a funny note and she and I actually became friends and she was a mentor of mine after that.

That’s great. That’s great. But that’s genius over that happen. Definitely happens. Oh God, you really need to know do your homework? I guess before you go into meetings like that Aaron to environments like that. You should know those things. Would you agree? I I, you know, there’s a whole section in the book and when I work with clients about how you prepare for meetings, it’s essential and here’s another mistake.

I made I’m sort of mortified by it. Just um, I was meeting with somebody who was high up at ABC because I was interested and when I got my CBS job, I got an offer from ABC as well as CBS, although after this media. I have no idea why so I wanted to impress upon her how knowledgeable. I was about the business and how I knew things that.

You know just regular people didn’t know and I sort of said something about a woman another executive and I said, you know, she doesn’t return calls and she doesn’t you know, nobody is really happy with her and turned out it was the executive I met with best friend and was like, oh my God, so don’t gossip.

That’s another one that I see but yeah because you never know who knows who it’s such a small business. It’s. Miniscule I can’t is and you know, just back away from it. Just don’t get them and you know television writers that are in writers rooms. Oh, they can be really political and so you want to do.

You want to make sure your Switzerland and you don’t go with either side and it’s hard it’s you know with my CBS mentees and writers. We talked about that a lot because it’s a that’s a land mine, you know, so it’s you know being nice but not getting into The Fray right now. How do you feel about internships internships?

They’re the best there are fantastic. Um, my daughter who is a senior at UCLA in playwriting but as an aspiring comedy writer, she’s had four internships in her last was at funny or die and because she works so hard and she’s fun to be around and she’s funny even though I’m a mom I can say that.

You know her she worked at Sony to they said we’ll help you get a job when you get out of school. So internships are great for making connections assuming that you’re not a jerk about it and people go. Oh man. She’s just sick sucking up to me because she wants to have a connection and their way to prove.

Your work ethic and their way to get jobs out of internships many people get offered jobs because companies and production companies would rather hire somebody they know who is really good for that entry-level position than have to go out to new people. That’s exactly how I got my first job in turn for four months at a production company in Miami and my boss quit like well that gets been here for four months.

Give him the job. And then I was all of a sudden I was the head of of dubbing tech support at a big production company. So, uh, but that’s how I did it and just by coming in every day and I was and I would also add I would think that make sure. Who you’re interning for and because there’s a lot of abuse in regards to internships and what you’ve done and if you’re not learning and their you’re literally just you know, if you’re working at a big company, it’s different.

But if you’re looking for a smaller production company and all they’ve got you doing is picking up laundry 24/7 do agree. That’s probably not the best idea. I couldn’t agree more I as I like to say not all internships are created equal the the first internship my daughter had they sat her in a corner in a white wall in front of a white wall and never asked she kept saying can I do this?

Can I do that? No, no, it’s covered. And so I encouraged her to not. To leave because it was and she did it really politically correctly. Um, but you’re absolutely right if if you are just doing runs all the time. You’re not learning anything. Um, if they. If they have you in a corner, if you’re picking up laundry, as you said all the time if somebody is abusing you or ignoring you then then that’s not the right internship and don’t stay, you know, leave on a good note because you never know but don’t stay now.

What advice would you give people on how to network properly? Oh good question. First of all, I hate the word networking. When I think about it, I think about smarmy agents, you know, here’s my card. How you doing? We got to do I got do yeah here look at my look at my real, um on my phone. Boom.

Here you go, watch it and the corner in the corner. First and how do you get out of that? You just go? Uh, I see my friend then you run away. Um, uh the right way in my opinion is to think about it as connecting rather than networking. And so it’s finding people it’s connecting with people that you have a genuine connection with.

And my number one rule for connecting with people is to focus on what you can do for them. Why you know people when you say you need to go Network, they go let me just die now is because they’re afraid they’re going to be that smarmy person and be trying to get something out of somebody but if you go in with the mindset, How can I help this person that I’m talkin to?

You know, how can I be absurd? What do I yeah, you know, they need a sound engineer. Do I know somebody who’s uh who’s willing to do that and give them the name? Um, I once had lunch with a show runner who been through the showrunner program who we became friends and he was talkin about doing his new project was on serial killers.

I said, you know, I just listened to a show on NPR about an interesting series. Killer, let me send you the link. It’s as small as that. The other is having that personal log line in a story, you know knowing it well enough so that when you talk to somebody you can say what you do in a way that’s interesting and compelling and memorable without being obnoxious about it.

Um, and then following up is so important and if you have a genuine connection with somebody, you know way too weak and then Reach Out. Say, um, you want to grab a coffee you want to go to a movie you want to come over to my bad movie night or my poker game and and it’s doing events. If you’re that kind of person.

It’s putting on social kinds of in a small events a brunch a poker and I screening of the room. We need of the route bad movie screening of the room. Um and what I tell my clients is, you know put on an event like that and say to your friends bring somebody with you that I don’t know that’s the price of admission.

Um, I have a writer client who I go back to Poker because there’s a lot of Poker going around with writers. Um, And she started a bi-monthly poker game and she said you can come you can drink my beer. You can eat my chips. You can lose money you can win money. But the price of admission is you got to bring somebody.

I don’t know and after six months she had a much expanded circle of friends and contacts. Of course, that’s a genius way of doing it actually. Yeah, but that’s smart. You’re providing a value to people. Right off the bat. That’s an entertainment of of getting away of gambling having having a poker night.

And it’s that’s a very subtle way of making connections. Absolutely and you know that came out of the fact that before I met my husband, uh, some girlfriends and I were sitting around saying we can’t meet any men and so we decided to have a bring your old boyfriend party just because you don’t want him doesn’t mean somebody else might not genius.

That’s a movie with their that’s a pitch. There you go. That’s a pitch and what happened, uh people met, you know, there was no marriages that came out of it. The people met somebody in dated and stuff like that. Sure sure. It was but it was it was a network. It was a connection. It was a connection.

It was a connection of it now. Uh, do you have any tips on how to handle rejection? I do as a matter fact because I’ve certainly experienced it myself. Adam they didn’t pick up my contract per second term. I was devastated and what they actually did is they sort of shut down the department, but but it doesn’t matter, you know for a while, but doesn’t matter.

I would I bought a lot of shoes. I drove around listening to this army song called Smoke Gets In Your Eyes Crying weeping or thing, uh, and you know, and there was some ice cream involved in all this too much. So what I tell people is apps and my husband even taught me this too. Feel the feelings wallow in that rejection and that pain and do it for two or three days.

You know, you don’t have to leave your house. You don’t have to get out of your pajamas just feel bad. And then move on move on reach out to people say I’m back in the world say I’m looking for a new gig. Um, do you want to get coffee go back out and be social and move on and have sort of a game plan for what you want to do, but don’t deny the feelings feel them but then move on and um, I I think that’s the best way to handle and no going in.

Everybody gets rejected everybody gets I remember I remember going back to Steve and it took him forever to get Lincoln off the ground. No one would Finance it and he said it was Steven Spielberg and exactly and no one wanted to finance Schindler’s List for that matter, uh, you know, either so I had to do it himself, but people get rejected all the time.

Everyone does. And if you have the expectation that I’m different and I’m never going to get rejected. I think the pain of it the shock of it will be enormous. But if you go in going, okay, that’s one down. Um, oh here’s another thing when you get rejected do not smack talk. Do not bad talk the people that rejected you.

Um, you know, I know that there’s lots of assistance that work for people that are jerks and what I say to them is when people say hey, how was that because there are some you know well-known jerks. You just say, you know, I learned how to deal with big personalities and when they say, why did you leave you say, you know what it just wasn’t a fit.

And that’s enough that’s that’s a very Hollywood. That’s so Hollywood. Those two eyes are perfect though, but their political that’s that’s what that’s what that’s what it is. You have to be kind of pull the word is political. I think more than anything else you have to be able to maneuver your way nicely if you’re bored.

Yes, and you don’t want to sever any ties and listen if you’re bad-mouthing somebody it’s gonna get back to them. Right gonna get back to them and you know political is not a bad thing. You know, it’s people artists go but I’m above that but you’re not this is a business. I’m sure people on your show said show business show us the art and business is the politics and you need both.

It’s a Rel you have to understand the whole ecosystem. The whole exactly the whole The Circle of Life Hakuna Matata exactly of the entire business and it is just that and I’ve run into so many filmmakers and screenwriters that don’t get the business. They just have this Passion of the art and this and that and a friend of mine, uh, Suzanne Lions.

She uh, she says the word show and there’s the word business in the word business has twice as many letters as the word show. Oh, I love that. I’m gonna steal that I stole it from her. I told her I told her that like and that’s how important the business side is because without that business the art goes nowhere.

That’s that’s exactly right and remember with few exceptions people buyers are in business to make money. It does not and some are just for the art, but you can’t stay afloat. Unless you’re independently wealthy, so. Another thing about pitching another thing about selling is put yourself in their shoes.

What is going to work for them? What works for their brand? What works? What do they need? Not just you’re gonna love this but really what do they need and you have to and that’s just true. That’s true when you’re connecting with people. It’s true with everything do your homework do your homework?

No. No, you know how you how you can be of help how you can be their solution to what their problem is Right In other words don’t go to Disney and pitch a slasher movie. It’s not it’s not not a good and Disney’s everywhere now, so they own everything don’t they? I think they own everything now. I think they’re gonna rule the world.

Yeah, I mean it’s insane what this needs smart business. I mean, yeah, it’s smart business, but you know buying 20 Century Fox. That’s a pretty big. I mean, that’s a big buy and you know on some hand it makes me sad because. You know, we need individual voices. We really do. I mean, is it gonna be you know, is there a predator in the new 20th Century Fox is there you know an alien’s fan chai’s is in all these amazing franchises that 20th Century Fox created.

Are they going to be created now under Disney are they gonna have their same at a minute that Pixar and Marvel? Uh and Star Wars has. Uh, you know, I I think they will retain a lot of their brand because their brand so successful. Why would you mess with it? And I think it’s funny because you look at foxes because Fox is literally like when you’ve got Marvel they bought Pixar they bought um, uh Star Wars, they’re smaller.

Huge Brands, but smaller than themselves. Uh, yes, but when buying Fox it’s like buying Warner Brothers like you’re buying your equal or close to your equal. Uh, and how do you treat that and I’m assuming they would hopefully treat it in the same manner. They treated Pixar, you know with some some over oversight.

But still keep it as its own kind of brand. I’m hoping because Fox did do create some insane. Um, same properties in films over the years. I I think that’s astute. I I, you know, if if a person had a magic. You know crystal ball. Um, that’s what I think is going to happen because that is in Disney’s best interest is to have another uh distribution system that has its own brand.

Well I touched on was back in the day. That’s when you know, I turned touched on into the our Disney. Because they had to back in the day and that was another brand that Disney was able to pump out pretty pretty raw movies art movies back in the day. Uh, so I think that think that would be hopefully what they do with Fox.

But anyway, we’ve gone off topic. Uh, so can you talk a little bit about your game Hollywood game plan a book? We’ve mentioned it times. What is the book and and tell us a little bit about it? Sure. Um, so it’s called Hollywood Game Plan how to land a job in film TV or Digital entertainment and it’s really for people who are breaking in and people who are in but want to move up a little who are in for a while and want to move up and.

I’ve had people say it’s used in colleges and universities sort of around the country. And I’ve had people who went to very pricey film school who said you know, what we didn’t get this information in film school. It’s it’s how you get an internship. It’s how you do a resume and a cover letter although you can get some of that online but it’s the unwritten rules that we talked about.

If you’re coming to La it’s weird to live. It’s what to wear how to prepare for a meeting. It’s have a follow up without being annoying. It’s it’s how you create your own personal, you know, entertainment industry brand. It’s about how you maneuver through the world in Hollywood without making the big mistakes.

How you. Move in move up how you you know, really how you set yourself apart? How you get that first job what you have to do? Where do you meet people? What do you say when you meet people? Um, how do you make sure that you get asked back, you know when you’re an intern and that you’re asked to work there.

How do you make sure that your first job you’re doing a fantastic job. It covers all of that. Excellent, and then you also have a course called the Hollywood boot camp, right? Yeah, Carol Crushers Hollywood boot camp and some of the material that’s in the book is in the boot camp. Um, but what it is is it’s a video course and uh, it’s streaming you can watch it.

However you want you can watch it all at once. There’s 20, uh, there’s 20 modules you can watch one at a time and then go to the grocery store. Um, it covers some of the same material but it’s much more in-depth. There’s exercises that you can do. And there’s lots of stories and examples that help to um that help to illuminate what the points are.

You know, I talked about great emails and I read the emails so that people know, you know, how do you write the right email to follow up? How do you write the right email to introduce yourself and ask for a general meeting? Um, it’s things like that. It’s really it’s basically a blueprint or roadmap on how to.

Over in the business in Hollywood, uh, absolutely how to break in how to maneuver how not to be a dick. I don’t know. I don’t know if there’s a book or a course on how to do that. Well, here’s all the things to do te not be a dick but I can’t make you not be exactly exactly we’ll give you the tips.

You can leave the horse to water. That’s right. That’s right. It’s what are the steps because a lot of people go. I don’t even know where to start or I’m in but I’ve lost traction. How do I get traction again? Right and it’s just such a you know, once you’re hot you’re hot and then it goes away really quickly and how you keep how you bring traction back and I went through that with projects of my own where I was being, you know brought in by the studios and I was hot for a minute and I didn’t prepare properly and the time I had that.

Ready, it was over time that the light is left. They’ve moved on and trying to get back in was very difficult. So that was a hard lesson to learn. Yeah. Yeah, it’s you know, it’s funny because for a while with my clients I did um career, you know, 9/11, how do you rehabilitate yourself? And you know, I I uh certainly work with someone like clients about that too.

Um and. It’s important to know what you need to be doing what you can be doing on a regular basis to move your career forward. A lot of people just don’t know so the book and the course. Talk about what you should be doing sort of daily on a regular basis to get to what your goals are and how you set your goals how in the in the um course and the streaming course.

We talked about a mission statement because a lot of people. Don’t think about that. They only think about what’s the immediate job. I want to get they don’t think about what their core values are and how to make sure that when they’re making their decisions. They’re making their decisions based around that that sort of esoteric the other things in our very Hands-On and very specific now, I want to ask you I have a bunch of questions.

I ask all of my uh, a few questions like rapid fire that asked all of my guests. I’m gonna ask you in a second, but you brought up something that I just I never had an opportunity to ask. With your experience in the business this there and I Know It exists, but I want to hear your point of view on this something called directors jail or writers jail or EP jail where they they either have a flop or have multiple flops where the point where they can’t even get a meeting but they had huge success as prior to that is that it does exist and how do you get out of that?

Really good question. Yes, it exists. But the truth is there’s two ways out of it. And will there’s three ways one. Is that your material your next project your next script? You’re next. Web series is is blazing hot that can’t be denied. The second is that you’re a pleasure to work with some people who are not a pleasure to work with when they get into directors jail or writers jail people go great.

Let them stay there. I don’t care. And the third is to keep up your connections and to keep it up in a positive way so that when you do have that new piece of material people are willing to take a risk if you have 20 years of. You may want to think about it different business, but everybody has flops.

It’s it’s how you treat people. It’s whether or not your next project and the one after that is blazing hot and fits the marketplace and then it’s making sure that you don’t go into a hole and not stay connected to people. You know those there was a moment in time. I remember back in I want to say 89 88 89 90 91 where a lot of people and I was still in high school at the during that time but I heard because I was studying the business back then that a lot of people are saying oh Spielberg is he’s done because he had a hot right?

Right exactly. But during that time. I heard that that because you know, he had he did always which wasn’t a hit then. Hook was a big big, you know big budget and not a hit which is on his for my favorites of his I love hook. Um, but and he was just like, oh, you know, I think the Spielberg thing is over at the end.

That’s what people do they talk and then in 92 had the greatest year ever. For any filmmaker with Jurassic Bark and it was a 92, right? 92 93. I think one of theirs. Yeah, he had the biggest movie of the year financially and the most awarded movie with Schindler’s List back-to-back and no one I think has ever done that again.

Um, so never. You know never count out especially when right now what I don’t count yourself out that’s a terrific example, and that’s because Jurassic Park and Schindler’s List were terrific blazing hot. Yeah blazing hot and if they hadn’t been. Then it would have been much harder. But but he’s so genius that that’s how that happens.

Oh God. Can you imagine making Jurassic Park in Schindler’s List in the same year releasing them. I mean God, that’s it. It’s mind-blowing. I really is mind-blowing. Okay, so let’s get to these final questions. Uh, so what advice would you give a filmmaker or screenwriter trying to break into the business today?

Um, make sure material. This is what everybody says. I’m sure three things make sure your material is blazing hot make sure that you know how to talk about yourself in a way that makes people lean forward and remember you and the third is make sure that you expand your community of contacts. Can you tell me what book had the biggest impact on your life or career?

No touche fair enough. Um, uh, there were a lot and um, you know adventures in the screen trade by William Goldman was certainly one of them. Um, mailroom was another learning about how the uh, the agents worked. Um, There was another one but I can’t remember it’s called right now. So we have to put a pin in that so those are those are good book, you know not what lesson took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life

work incredibly hard. Don’t don’t. Sale by on your charm and your your personality Talent, you know, right or your talent you you have to do the work you have to work harder than anybody else because all the people that are successful they work really hard. Nobody really looks at that but they worked their ass off and you know, I sailed by because I was charming and people liked me for while and then I realized nope and being political.

Um, You know treating manager up managed down. I didn’t have a problem managing down but managing and let go of your ego you need a healthy ego. But you also need to know when to have it in check and three of your favorite films of all time. Uh All That Jazz, okay. Schindler’s List, all right, and I got to say right now ladybird.

It’s on my list. I got the screen. I have to watch that. I got ya. I heard it’s really really good. Oh and also Young Frankenstein can’t leave that out. I mean seriously, how can you leave practice and where can people find you? Online. Um, my website is Karen Kirshner and on that website, you can see a link to the book and to the to the course and you can see about my coaching packages and blogs.

So Carol Kirchner the boot camp is CK. Camp you can go to Amazon for Hollywood game plan. I’ll put all of those in the Show links to all of that stuff in the show notes Carol. Thank you so much as an absolute pleasure speaking to you today. Thank you so much for dropping some major knowledge bombs on the indie film hustle tribe today.

Thank you so much Alex. It was great. So you guys ready to break into Hollywood after that episode I am but uh, no, seriously. Thank you Carol so much for dropping some great knowledge bombs. And if you guys are honestly are looking for a consultant or someone to help you kind of guide your career help you break in in a way or you know, help you Rebrand yourself or how to package yourself better to make yourself look more appetizing to agents to managers to Studio.

An executives. Carol is the person to go to so just head over to indie films for the show notes, and there are links to everything. She has there including her, uh course Hollywood bootcamp and links to her book and to her for Consulting and so on. So, thanks again, Carol. And if you guys haven’t done it already.

Please head over to filmmaking podcast and leave me a five star review on the show. It really helps to show out a lot. I greatly greatly appreciate it now. I hope you guys are enjoying the summer because I am but of course I am busy hustling. Like a madman and I hope you guys are too and as always keep that whole going keep that dream alive, and I’ll talk to you soon.

Thanks for listening to the indie film hustle podcast at indie film hustle.