IFH 157: How to Shoot 360 Video & Actually Make Money with Josh Gibson

Alex Ferrari 0:10
So I've added on the show Josh Gibson, who is a three, a 360 video specialist. He's the founder of 360, video academy.com. And is a pretty much you know, kind of knows what he's talking about when it comes to 360 video, so I wanted to bring them on the show. So we can kind of explain it to us layman's on how you could do it, what the cost is to get into it. And if you can even make money as doing it as a filmmaker, so I won't waste any more time. Let's get right into it. Enjoy my conversation with Josh Gibson from 360 video Academy. I'd like to welcome to the show Josh Gibson, man. Thanks for coming on the show, man.

Josh Gibson 4:24
Hey, thanks so much for having me, Alex, it's good to be here.

Alex Ferrari 4:26
I wanted you on the show. Because I am just dangerous. I just know enough to be dangerous in the 360 world. So I wanted to get a professional to come on and i'm gonna i'm just gonna beat you up with a lot of questions if that's okay,

Josh Gibson 4:38
now that's totally great. Shoot, I'm glad you're excited for it.

Alex Ferrari 4:42
Cool, man. So let's first and foremost, what the hell is 360 video for people who don't know?

Josh Gibson 4:48
You know, that's a good question. It's kind of something that's been around for a while. I mean, you look at like Google streetview. You look at, you know, virtual tours on maybe some real estate sites like it's sort of this technology of you know, the three Under 60 degree panorama has been around for a while. But it's sort of been stuck in this the still world until, you know, a few years back when people started messing around with GoPros. And, you know, trying to get smaller cameras and putting them all together so that they're shooting in all directions, and trying to capture 360 degree video. So that's kind of where, you know, the explosion happened. And when people started realizing, hey, you know, GoPros not too expensive, you know, and this, a lot of companies like color, and, you know, other companies, including GoPro started seeing a real future in this. And yeah, they started building software for it. And, you know, and the rest is history. So it's basically putting a bunch of cameras together, shooting in every single direction, and sinking all those cameras up and then stitching them together later on a computer. So it's kind of a process, but, you know, pretty simple, simple, you know, you're wrapping a sphere around a video and, and, you know, that's how it works.

Alex Ferrari 5:54
Now, there, there's, I mean, from the point of GoPro rigs, now they're actually coming out with cameras that are built into a sphere, I saw some of them in cinna gear last year, and companies are coming out with those by themselves with their own proprietary software and things like that. Is that correct?

Josh Gibson 6:10
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's actually really Yep, exactly. Right. So there's a few cameras that technically I think there's one that shoots 270 degrees, and it's just one lens with one sensor. But as a matter of getting the full 360 degrees, you actually still technically need two cameras, at least. And there's some like Kodak makes a couple the SDK, you know, where you put two cameras back to back basically, with super, you know, fisheye wide angle lenses on each one of those. So you basically have to, you know, half domes that you're getting and then you're just wrapping them together, or that you're, you know, joining them together and aligning them. But you know, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 6:47
but when you're dealing with 360, though, I mean, the kind of 360 that I've seen that looks good is somewhat distorted, but not completely distorted like a fisheye would be. So that's good. I mean, that's what we're kind of going for, right? It's not like this kind of distorted, fisheye, because if that's the point, then we're back in BC, Beastie Boys videos back in the day, right? Yeah, so

Josh Gibson 7:09
I mean, yeah, that's kind of my opinion, too. I think there's, I mean, the Samsung Gear is obviously another example of, you know, the two camera system, and those are great, and they work pretty well. But the issue you run into with those two, two lens systems is obviously at the very edge of any fisheye lens, there's going to be distortion pixels are going to get stretched. So if you're going to be trying to stretch those back out to make them undistorted in a 360 degree, you know, viewing space, you know, it's gonna be a little bit blurrier. You're gonna see some, you know, aliasing or whatever, on those edges. So that's why people started moving into the, you know, multi camera rigs where you have, you know, 10, GoPros, 20, GoPros, or, you know, any other small camera like the Blackmagic, you know, camera that you can put it on there. So people have been experimenting with all sorts of different setups. But obviously, the other downside is when you add more cameras, you're going to run into more stitching complications. With all the weird lines and stuff. We'll get

Alex Ferrari 8:00
into stitching later. Yes. I have questions about stitching. That one's fun. everyone's asking, like, what the hell is stitching my door? We'll get we'll get to it soon enough, ladies and gentlemen. So a real basic question is what's the difference between 360 and VR? virtual reality? Because they're kind of similar?

Josh Gibson 8:20
Yeah, yeah, they are really similar and they're used interchangeably a lot? That's a really great question. So VR, you know, if we want to throw the dictionary at it, is basically kind of like the video games that you see out there where people are walking around in an actual 3d space, they have goggles on, it's usually hooked up to a really high powered PC or something, a computer, and they also have those little things are holding in their hands where they can interact. And you know, you see the cool video games where you're shooting zombies all around or something. So that's VR where you can interact completely with the environment you can walk, you know, with your actual two feet, and the goggles on your face are basically just you know, re, you know, displaying what you're what you should be seeing in the video game or whatever. So there aren't a lot of actual VR video if you will. But so and before I get into that, sorry, I'll talk about the difference. So 360 video, on the other hand, is basically captured video wrapped in a sphere around a user and the only thing that the user can actually interact with in the video is where they're looking which direction they're looking at. The filmmaker still has control basically over how tall that viewer is and where they are standing in that space. So with 360 video, you can look around you can move your phone around if you're watching on a phone or a tablet or whatever or on a computer you can click around and move you know your direction but you can't actually walk you know anywhere you can't say oh what's that rock over there? I'm gonna go see what's behind it you can't do that quite yet with with 360 video but in a VR world that's it's all built on a computer so everything is you know, all the data is there you could walk around and see what's behind the rock you know, etc, etc.

Alex Ferrari 9:56
So yeah, got it. So it's a it Yeah, actually saw thing on Facebook once i was i was i think i was watching Casey Neistat with with the Samsung brig and he posted something on Facebook and it said move your phone left I'm like What does that mean? I'm like, Oh my God. Jesus this is this is witchcraft it's insane it's really it was the weirdest thing ever like how did they know it was and Facebook has I guess you could do it on you could upload 360 video on Facebook now and I was like wow that's insane like just the things you can do with that are amazing which brings me to my next question What kind of stories can you tell with 360 video Can you can you shoot a feature film with 360

Josh Gibson 10:40
oh that's Yeah, that's the million dollar question. I there's been a lot of really cool experimentation going on. So I think the big question right now at least in my mind, is you know what future does 360 video have with like documentary filmmaking versus like narrative fiction filmmaking? Right so there have been a lot of like, horror the horror genre has been obviously all over 360 because you know, you have all this new space to work with the jump and scare people. And I've seen a lot of recreations like historical recreations in 360 video and you know of course that's my background is in documentary filmmaking. So that's kind of where I've been working mostly. But yeah, the short answer is everybody's doing doing 360 and there have been falling feature films made in it there's as yeah there's been Can you name some I actually don't know the name off the top my head it's been pretty recent, but there have been a few like TV networks and stuff that thrown you know, pretty big chunks of money at VR and 360 and there's a lot of experimentation going on with it right now. So I think it's, it's been living a lot in the documentary world and I can look up some of these and give you links and stuff you can throw in the shownotes but sure. It's been living a lot in the documentary world, but I think a lot of fiction filmmakers, and you know, like horror and stuff like that have been really interested in doing it. But another kind of unforeseen, huge genre of 360 filmmaking is the education world There have been a lot of universities especially at the most recent na B when I was out there you know, I met up with a lot of you know, professors and administrators education people that were from all over the country all over the world wanting to implement VR and 360 into their teaching which is awesome because you know, obviously you can take people out on a field trip or a virtual field trip anywhere you want whether that be Mars or just a canyon up the street of the school you know, and then Matter of fact that's a project I'm working on now with a local university here is their geology department is is hiring me to do some work with them to basically do some drone footage and some really cool like virtual walkthroughs of this canyon this really interesting Canyon nearby so that they show their students

Alex Ferrari 12:52
that's insane so yeah, like she was like it like basically like okay let's go to the pyramids of Giza and yeah you know, the pyramids of Giza or the Great Wall of China or any of these places

Josh Gibson 13:01
and you can overlay graphics and put really cool you know, you know text or you could even throw you know 3d animated timelapses if you want saying like hey, this is what it looked like 10,000 years ago now it's jumped to today Stop it. Yeah. Okay, just be standing in the middle that's really cool experience right? So it's awesome and then the cool part is people can watch it on their phones now they can watch it on their tablets they can do it anywhere so you don't need to go to some fancy you know planetarium or anything it's it's very accessible so unlike

Alex Ferrari 13:29
VR, you don't need a helmet or a pair of goggles to look at 360 video as long as you have it on a it's being projected in a proper way correct?

Josh Gibson 13:38
Yeah, so right you can technically you can watch it on a computer just on a laptop or you know whatever and click around with the mouse or you can watch it you can hold your phone out in front of your tablet obviously the most ideal way to watch VR or 360 is through goggles it's a little bit more immersive that way you know with some headphones on and stuff and you know there's spatial audio which interacts the audio actually can track to your head too so there's that's a whole other topic as well Yeah, I

Alex Ferrari 14:04
was gonna say audio mixing for this must be

Josh Gibson 14:07
a bitch it's complex man it's and I'm not an audio engineer by any stretch of the imagination so I can't speak to the nitty gritty too much but it's it's there they're making it more simple. I've been messing around and beta testing for a few companies some software that basically allows you to mix the audio in like you know, a Dolby Surround sort of format you know, 5171 and then basically what happens is, you tell the cat or you tell the software where is your like your point one you know, your your base point, and then as soon as your head turns the software in either the phone or the goggles has to actually process and change and mix that audio on the spot. Come on, so yeah, it's so the Yeah, it's pretty, pretty well.

Alex Ferrari 14:53
It's insanity man. I mean, we're starting to get into Star Trek world, man. It's crazy. It's work. We're just we're only a few steps away from the from the holodeck. We

Josh Gibson 15:05
wouldn't and maybe the next thing is being able to create hamburgers from the you know, the little touchscreen.

Alex Ferrari 15:10
Oh god right imagine like teach in this just did you by the way I hope the audience enjoy enjoyed my sound effects. Know I did I appreciate it so so now that let's say we're gonna go out and shoot some stuff, what some pre shoot equipment that you would need to just do a basic 360 shoot.

Josh Gibson 15:30
So yeah, that's a great question. I mean, that was the thing with 360 cameras, you can go as small as like the Samsung Gear, or you know, codecs got one of those dual camera setups to where it's got the two cameras back to back. But really, with 360 video, I mean, you could go all the way up to the Ozo to the Nokia oza that's like $45,000 camera, you know, that's completely professional global shutter, you know, 13 stops of dynamic range kind of thing. So that one's great. But with 360 video, you can go you know, as small as you really want, you know, and it's it's kind of threatening, and it feels a little bit scary to go out and shoot it. But as long as you're holding your arm steady and or if you're on a tripod, and you're just shooting like landscape stuff, you know, pre shoot equipment, all you really need is, you know, the camera and kind of a sense of imagination,

Alex Ferrari 16:18
really? And do you how do you record the audio. So the audio

Josh Gibson 16:21
can usually be recorded on the actual device, Samsung Gear has a few microphones and the Kodak does as well. There actually are even a few, it's, I think it's called the Insta 360 it's company from I'm not even sure where they're from, but they have a cool little basically small 360 camera that you can plug into the bottom of your phone, either Android or iOS. And you can livestream 360 video now on Facebook or YouTube. So I mean, I'm sure vloggers and stuff are going to be you know, all over this and wanting to get into that. So that's kind of fun, you can be you know, taking people on a tour and stuff of you know, if you're vacationing or you know, talking to the camera, they can look at you or they can look behind you

Alex Ferrari 16:59
or, or if you're on a film set, and you want to give the people a tour of the film set that would be a great marketing for Oh, yeah, stunning, really awesome. That would blow people's mind as far as great content and great material that you can use for marketing. I mean, imagine just doing a 360 table read? Oh, yeah, of all the actors, I mean, you could do it in my mind that my marketing minds turning on now. So that would be

Josh Gibson 17:24
I'm sure they're going to implement it with Skype and with any other you know, I'm sure it's going to be a business solution here pretty soon where if you want to beam into a meeting or something, you know, across the country or across the globe, you can just sit there and it'll be like you're actually sitting there you can look around, see who's talking it won't be like a, you know, a webcam that they set up in the corner trying to you know, see everybody it'll just be a 360 camera, sitting in a chair somewhere and you know, the CEO or whoever can sit there and look around and chat and likely like that pretty cool.

Alex Ferrari 17:52
Like the Jedi Council. Yes, exactly. That's the goal. That's the goal Jedi Council boom, yes, just with better dialogue. But um, so um, so what are some of the pitfalls that you should avoid when shooting 360 video?

Josh Gibson 18:08
So with 360 video, I think one of the biggest complications one of the newest thing or not complications, but one of the biggest difficulties is a lot of creative control is is stripped from the Creator. So I think a lot of people go into it expecting to still be able to like frame the shot, if you will.

Alex Ferrari 18:24
360 How can you?

Josh Gibson 18:28
So that's kind of a new frustrating thing. And I even remember going out and doing, you know, like prevas, or, you know, tech scouts, location scouts for different shoots. And think it's kind of weird, because you stand there and you're like, Oh, that's a nice angle. That's a nice frame, oh, wait, I can't actually have an angle. You know, this isn't a 2d thing, a box where I'm saying, hey, here are the edges of the frame. You know, there's no lenses that I choose to shoot with, I can't, you know, really change a lot of the things, all I can really choose is where the person who's standing, and how tall they are. So obviously, there's still a lot of cool things you can do with that with movement and drones or whatever you can come up with. But that's kind of the first hurdle that a lot of people have to get over is understanding that when you're framing a shot in quotes, you've got to basically stand in one place and kind of look in every single direction and say, is this interesting over here? Is this interesting over there. And then you've also got to say, well, maybe I don't want it to be interesting. Other than this one little place, I want to I want to draw attention to that one part of the 360 degree space. So there's a lot of new questions to ask yourself. And that's kind of one of the bigger, you know, artistic hurdles to overcome. There's plenty of technological and other ones we can get into. But that was one of the bigger ones that I remember going through as a creator, you know, coming from the two dimensional world of filmmaking. It was kind of interesting to be like, wow, this is a totally new way of thinking and a totally new way of storytelling.

Alex Ferrari 19:47
No, I saw I was I was watching your demo on your website, and I saw you in the corner. Yeah. So which brings me to my next question. How do you hide or remove gear crew camera operator's etc.

Josh Gibson 20:01
right that's a that's a great point that's actually something I go into a lot in, you know, in the things I teach in the course. But basically you have to, you know, make a decision whether or not you can even remove yourself like I was filming at that holy color festival. And that was practically impossible. I mean, I could have tried to paint myself out. But basically the short answer is it's it's simple techniques like that you've learned in Photoshop or After Effects where you're compositing out different things in a 2d in a 2d space, like on a 2d shot. But with 360 video, obviously, it's you know, how many how many ever more times work to make sure everything gets painted out in that 360 space. So there's a few plugins like skybox metal, that are metals, skybox. Sweet is really awesome, that's the one I use. I also use a mixture of like Mocha Pro and mocha VR with, you know, premiere and After Effects, too. And I have a little bit of background in visual effects not tons, but I had enough that I could figure out basically how to convert this weird sphere video this equirectangular what they call it video into something that I could work with as a VFX artist. But it's basically the same techniques you know, as painting out people in two dimensional video, it's just being able to convert that back and distort it properly. So that it looks right in, you know, that sphere and that 360 video.

Alex Ferrari 21:18
So I was going through your site and I wanted to ask you what is auto panel video pro?

Josh Gibson 21:25
Oh, yeah, that's that is my favorite software. It's, it's basically the stitching software for it's kind of the first step in the whole process. So once you've shot everything, whether you've got, you know, 10 cameras, or you know, three cameras or whatever, basically, you obviously have a bunch of SD cards, or you have a bunch of different video files, however you get them. And what auto pin a video does is it basically takes all those videos and it will smartly sync and allows you to easily either by an audio cue or a visual clap or something, you can sync them all up. And then it basically finds all the all those little intricate points and stitches them all together. So obviously the idea with 360 video is when you're shooting with 10 cameras, you want to have overlap right on each one of those cameras so that there's a little bit of wiggle room as far as you know, how you're stitching and how you're kind of melding them together to make the edges look seamless. And that's kind of what auto pen of video takes care of, is it gives you a lot of tools to customize and to really tweak and make things look just right and there's also a partner program called autopano Giga that I believe has been around a lot longer than autopano video and autopano Giga is just basically another program that has done the still version so people that did Google streetview or that you know they're really awesome people that would go on and add 360 photos of the Eiffel Tower or something on Google Earth I remember looking at those even as a kid they all use programs very similar to autopano Giga so data panel video is basically the same thing but just for video

Alex Ferrari 22:52
so stitching basically if for layman terms is basically just because you've overlapping the video all the video frames of all the all the cameras you're using in the in the rig they overlap so you got to kind of melt them together or composite them together in some way in stitching is the term to use and that's what basically stitching is an auto panel video kind of does helps you tremendously by doing that.

Josh Gibson 23:15
Yes, yes that is exactly right. So there's that you can there's I know a few people that not a few people but there's there's people that I've heard do their stitching in programs like fusion, you know, from black magic, or they use nuke and stuff and that's there's there's plenty of you know, there's always a million ways to skin a cat as far as the post production goes. But the one I really liked to use that makes it pretty simple and gives you still you know, power user customization options is auto Pena video,

Alex Ferrari 23:40
you know, is there, but I saw some and at again at that cinna gear, I saw some setups that were doing autos auto stitching, like it was Yeah, it was automatically just doing it for you. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Josh Gibson 23:53
Yeah, they've got I mean, the Nokia Ozo has proprietary software. I believe the jaunt actually is entirely cloud based. So when you go out and shoot with a giant camera, you just upload your media to the cloud, and they do all the processing and stitching for you. But yeah, so it's pretty efficient. Obviously, it's like, you know, that's, and I'm sure you pay for it on the back end, but I'm sure it's it's really awesome. The only downside, I think, to those kinds of solutions in this isn't really a downside. But you do need to go in and add, you know, finishing touches. So if there are minor stitch problems, obviously the human eye can notice weird aberrations a lot easier and more efficiently than a computer could. But that said, I think it won't be you know, another two or three years before computer stitching is completely awesome. You know, Google's got a Google jump program. They're working with all sorts of there. They haven't opened up their API yet, but they're working with all sorts of camera companies. And they've got some really, really awesome like AI driven stitching. And Facebook even has some stitching solutions as well. So I think that's kind of the Holy Grail right now a lot of companies are looking for, you know, a seamless, a perfect 100% awesome stitching solution so that filmmakers no longer have to worry about all that, you know, technical stitching and stuff like that. But when you do want to fix minor issues or Polish things off and make things look a little bit better, or add little embellishments here and there, you still do need to work in that equirectangular format. So, but yeah, that's stitching, hopefully, eventually, I'm very sure will be automated soon.

Alex Ferrari 25:27
Now, are there any tips that you can give the listeners to do a perfect stitch?

Josh Gibson 25:32
That's Yeah, that's a, just a couple tips. Yeah, a couple of tips. So I think was stitching, the big thing is just being detail oriented. I think a lot of people either try to just run through it quickly. And you know, they don't want to really spend time looking through each possible angle of their shot. And, you know, the best way to do that is just to go through and watch it over and over again and look up stuff and make sure that it looks good. Sorry, did you hear that? Sorry, no,

Alex Ferrari 26:01
keep going. Okay,

Josh Gibson 26:02
there's a little notification that came up. But so yeah, I mean, detail oriented, I think is important. Being able to walk, watch through your shot and notice things because the biggest draw, I think, are the biggest important thing with stitching for me is, as soon as somebody notices an obvious stitch error, it kind of pulls them out of the magic, as a viewer. And obviously you don't need to be you don't need to pull your hair out about it. And you know, spend 1000s of hours making everything look flawless. But I think that's the biggest thing is to realize how important are good stitches. And then I think the other thing is, is to just identify and be smart about your shooting. That's honestly the the best advice I can give anybody is the magic really doesn't happen in post production as much as it happens in actually production and shooting. So if you shoot smart and you understand the limitations and the possibilities of your camera, then you know you're gonna avoid a lot of headaches in post production.

Alex Ferrari 26:55
Now, did you? I'm assuming you saw Justin Lin's short film help? Yes, awesome. The three there's a 360 short film. So that's a really good example of a narrative story.

Josh Gibson 27:08
Yeah, yeah. It's great. I mean, they shot that on reds. So they got a bunch, they gotta hear

Alex Ferrari 27:12
this. What's up, when you get that when you get that kind of we got just a live money. Yeah. And I think it was Google who paid for it. So

Josh Gibson 27:18
Right, right. Oh, yeah. I mean, it was a huge, huge undertaking. But yeah, that was a that was also a really good example of kind of the mixed media, if you will, of, you know, the real life captured footage from the Reds in that 360 rig that they built. But then also adding in three dimensional elements that hid a lot, I'm sure of those, you know, any stitching problems they had, they could, you know, kind of paint out, or they could hide behind a monster or whatever. So that's actually what a lot of people are moving towards. A lot of filmmakers that I've seen, they're actually shooting a lot of just kind of base plates on in actual 360. And then they actually go in and shoot a lot of the assets and all that they know the characters and things that are happening in the frame on like a green screen, just in a you know, normal studio, and then they composite those in into that 360 space. So there's really a lot of ways you can do this. And a lot of people are, you know, experimenting with all sorts of different ways. So it's really exciting.

Alex Ferrari 28:11
So what programs do you use to edit 360 video,

Josh Gibson 28:15
I just use Adobe Premiere. So it's basically the exact same thing you're editing exactly how you would normally, you know, a 2d stuff. premiere has just recently at you know, upgraded and added a kind of a 360 view button, like a toggle, you can choose on the program monitor, which is really handy. So you mostly can just it Look, you can edit and that equirectangular video format is what they call it, where it looks like it's just really wide angle, it's kind of weird. But then you can click a little button and you can actually, you know, hit play on your, your keyboard and actually watch in real time, what your viewer would be seeing or what they could be seeing. So premiere has been really good at adopting the technology as well. But luckily, it's exactly the same as, as you know, editing 2d video,

Alex Ferrari 28:56
and then and for visual effects. Any of the standard visual effects. Packages would work.

Josh Gibson 29:01
Yeah, I mean that that's kind of another difficult thing when when you're wrapping 360 video in that sphere from the equirectangular format a lot of like blur effects or pixelate, or, you know, whatever effects you might have added initially, even color correction sometimes can be a little difficult because at the very end at the 180 degree mark line right behind the viewer, sometimes you'll get a hard line because the effect doesn't know how to basically repeat infinitely in that sphere. So it actually has to sort of recalculate things in skybox are metal, the company has been doing a really good job at coming out with transitions, coming out with effects like, you know, Blur and sharpen and things like that basic stuff right now, but I'm sure it'll get more advanced, you know, in the near future. They're coming out with those effects that are actually 360 ready. So right now it's kind of a lot of experimentation to see if it'll work and most of the time they do. But as far as, you know, actually having 360 degree or VR ready effects. I think that's still something that needs to be worked on. And a lot of companies I'm sure are doing that now. So

Alex Ferrari 30:02
we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show now how do you deliver your final product? What like what format Do you deliver it on.

Josh Gibson 30:19
So the format is still the same it's just a quick time video. But with premiere what what you do when you actually export there's there used to not be this actually before premiere updated, there was a little program you had to download from YouTube that uploaded metadata into this video file, however, you know, you export it, whether it be an mp4 or an M Avi and then that that metadata basically told whichever player you uploaded to that it was a 360 video and then it needed to be treated differently right so the big issue with delivering 360 video right now is you need to be able to deliver it on a platform that can actually view 360 video because if you just play it on you know without that metadata on like a TV or anything it'll just play back you know that weird stretched out format which is not what you want obviously. So when you when you're working with clients, the you know premier has updated their thing where you just click a little box that says this is VR video or this is a 360 video and it'll actually automatically upload that metadata into the video file and then you just deliver the video file as if you're sending any other 2d video and then obviously you just need to make sure that you're either watching it on you know a headset or if you know they're wanting to do like web distribution you need to use a program or use like YouTube or Facebook or something like Wistia or Vimeo even has 360 video now so I'm sure it'll become more you know, affluent in the future. But yeah, you just need to make sure that they understand that you can't just watch it absolutely anywhere you need to upload it to a program that can or like YouTube or a service that can actually support playing back 360 videos so

Alex Ferrari 31:52
with all this said after all the stuff we've talked about it's fair it's fair to say that this is not this is a you need to know your stuff to come shoot this it's not like grabbing a camera and going out and you know shooting like you really need to understand the technology you really need to understand the workflow the post workflow which is a lot more complicated than just shooting a narrative on a 2d situation

Josh Gibson 32:20
right yeah, I mean it's it's definitely I mean there's some simplicity and stuff and I've been in it for a long time so it's really hard for me to to you know really step back and see but I remember starting out how complex it was and you know it basically having to experiment a lot a lot of hair pulling a lot getting super mad wanting to punch the computer and stuff but yeah, I mean it's honestly once you understand the big picture it makes the whole process a lot smoother so I think that's probably one of the big frustrating things is people try to jump into it without really understanding the end and beginning in the middle on how all that like you said how the workflow goes so it's still very complicated there are it's not as complicated as I think people I definitely don't want to scare anybody away that's kind of my goal with you know what I've been doing I definitely want people to come and be creators in it and I think that was a pleasant surprise that I had to I was like okay, this is complex This is hard there's things to learn but you know it's doable even a dumb guy like make and figure it out and you know and learn how to do all this stuff and have fun doing it so it's kind of that blend where yeah you know people can save themselves a lot of headache if they do a little bit of homework at the beginning but yeah i mean if they wanted to jump in they could if they have you know hundreds hundreds of hours of free time and you know the Google and stuff like sure go ahead there's there's plenty of you know random places all over the internet to learn how to do it just like anything I guess right but

Alex Ferrari 33:53
but you've been so you've been doing this for a while so you've seen the technology changed dramatically in the course of the time that you've been in it so it's getting easier things that used to take you hours to do now you could do in minutes purely because of technology

Josh Gibson 34:05
yeah and I in honestly I haven't even been in it as long as some people have and even the past few years that I've been doing it it's Yeah, it's attention it's getting from big companies is I think that is the best news that we could be having right now. Because all that money in research is now going into it and companies are coming out with really awesome technology that helps you know, obviously with the stitching, that's the biggest thing right now that I think people are going to be trying to simplify. And then obviously as well, shooting with with 360 is going to become better and better as well because you look at like the Nokia Ozo and that cameras professional, it's great. But it's also It weighs about you know it weighs like 20 pounds. And it's very difficult to work with as far as like a documentary filmmaker that just wants to go out and shoot right? It is battery powered, but it's like you need so much gear. And you kind of look at the evolution of the DSLR right where that sort of blew up, you know The idea that indie filmmakers can go out and just make make a movie right they could go out they'll start is like backpack stuff

Alex Ferrari 35:07
yeah you started please don't get me started

Josh Gibson 35:11
with the downside right?

Alex Ferrari 35:14
I mean

Josh Gibson 35:18
I hope that with 360 video the technology gets to the place where it's simpler and obviously it will be I mean in the future it will be but yeah as of right now it's it's still pretty hard to do complex it's you know, it takes a little bit expertise. But it's also something that if somebody really wants to do they should and they can so now

Alex Ferrari 35:37
I mean, I would equate 360 video a little bit with the 3d resurgence back in the 2009 2010 11 where 3d was all the rage and everything was going to be shot in 3d and everybody's running around trying to get the rigs together and oh my god, I need the my software I can edit 3d and you can't call it great 3d and all of this stuff. And I remember all that I was I was sitting in, in in presentations and and rental houses and they're all trying to sell their their new 3d rig and James Karen was coming out and the only 3d I've ever seen that I liked was avatar on Hugo Hugo was really good too because it because you have two masters working in the format. Right, but but I think that's a lot a little bit of that's happening with 360 But unlike 3d in my personal opinion, I think 360 has a much brighter future. I think it's something that will be around for many, many years to come and will evolve into something that will eventually turn into the holodeck.

Josh Gibson 36:38
Right? Right And yeah, that's that was honestly the first thing I remember getting into 360 and I was working with I work at a place called the good line. That's kind of like my full time gig. And you know my bosses my colleagues were talking to me about 360 video a few years back and that was kind of the first thing we thought is like okay, is this just another smellivision is this right i mean is it just another gimmick and we kind of started thinking it was at first but yeah like you say once I think everybody started catching on to the marketing possibilities the education possibilities the entertainment possibility it really just fits all these different you know needs that a lot of companies and medical medic yeah you name it it's you know even Yeah, all sorts of ways to train people I've seen really cool studies done with people that are you know, in end of life care, elderly folks that are going through a lot of pain or Alzheimer's and they actually give them 360 goggles or VR goggles to like sit at a beach or to go on a walk and they actually have shown you know, through MRIs and stuff that it's helping with their you know, depression their anxiety of course, you know, pain so it's it's awesome. It's It has also it really goes across the whole spectrum of how it can help Pete It is,

Alex Ferrari 37:48
it is turning into like, Total Recall and all these old sci fi Oh, yes, it really is like I was that the sixth day, I remember where Michael Rapaport an hour Schwarzenegger movie called The six day at 660. And, and, you know, he had a three dimensional, you know, girlfriend, you know, and all that. But I'm not saying that this is turning into that, but I'm like, wow, it's it's, we're all getting to that place where you can sit on a beach, and I can be in Hawaii, I can have the sound and I can have this I can feel the heat of the sun, but I can almost smell it and see

Josh Gibson 38:21
Oh, they're getting there. I'm sure they're gonna I mean, they even have they're doing research now where you put on gloves. And it actually will give you a tactile feedback. So you can touch things and feel like for you can feel, you know, glass, you can I mean, it's getting scary. It's the matrix. Matrix.

Alex Ferrari 38:36
We're getting into the maze. Oh, it

Josh Gibson 38:37
certainly is. I mean, there might even be people in I think it's you know, Inception where people are dreaming. And they pay to they go to these little underground places just to stay in their dreams, because they like it better in real life. And I honestly would not think that that's too far off. You know, eventually we're going to get to that point where, yeah, it's wild. I mean, people are even using it for I even heard of a dentist that was using it and is not needing to use painkiller at all when he's doing fillings or root canals, because people are so into the VR experience. I mean, they just use VR goggles instead of painkiller. It's wild. Yeah, it's crazy. And I think the exciting thing that I remember seeing nav just this last time, is we are actually very, very close to actually getting VR video. So as I explained before VR is when you can walk around in a space and look around objects and stuff, it's not just looking where you're at, they're actually coming up with cameras, like the lytro and other cameras that are basically light field capture. So it's more than just capturing, you know, the brightness of the reflection of light like a normal camera does or the color of whatever the reflection is, it's actually capturing depth information. And it will be able to 3d scan an environment in real time and then you can literally walk around, you know, at a sporting event, or even it'll take virtual field trips to the next level because you can go up and, and who knows, maybe you can go touch rocks, and you can I mean, it's crazy. I mean, the the sky's the limit really on on how this technology will develop. So that and that's kind of where I think we saw to kind of going back to your original question that it's it's definitely more than a gimmick I think at this point because I think people are realizing this is kind of the future of how we present information to people remotely. I mean, it will make the world that much smaller, you can go swimming in the the ocean, and then the next second, you can be walking on Mars from 3d scans from the rover, you know, I mean,

Alex Ferrari 40:30
yeah, I mean, I think I think at this point for filmmakers, it's, I don't, I don't see it, how it can turn into something for narrative filmmaking, per se. Like I saw the Justin Lin thing, and that's great. And it's awesome. But that's not a film. That's an experience. It's a it's like almost a it's almost like a ride. It's almost like a carnival ride. But like, you know, some sort of Disney or universal ride where you kind of experience something absolutely different than filmmaking is different than television or movies or anything like that. It's right, because that, that that that medium is about a creator, Director telling you, I need you to look at this now. I need you to look at that now. Totally. So you can't get that with 360. But with three but the other things that are available, what you can do with it is massive. So can you real quickly. tell the audience a few places like hey, I'm gonna get into the 360 world now I'm a filmmaker. Where can I make some money?

Josh Gibson 41:29
That's a great question. Yeah. Honestly, the biggest place right now I think, is education. That is the biggest market right now to get involved with so there's a lot of schools all over the country all over the world, whether that be high schools or you know, universities obviously usually have a little bit bigger budgets. They're all looking for, you know, everything from consultants to actual practitioners, which is what I'm doing with the University here in Utah where you're they're wanting to create this 360 content, and they're wanting to make it interactive and interesting and fun. So there's a huge huge market in education. And I would think the next one real estate is obviously a big one. Because you know, real estate agents are also always looking for, you know, ways to sell homes, innovatively and better. There's other cameras like the matterport that do the photo still virtual tours, those are cool, but I think 360 video has a space there. But yeah, I mean education and in real estate, I think are kind of the biggest low hanging fruit right now. As far as like actually doing branding and marketing. I think that's also another big area that's kind of what where I've been, you know, in my wheelhouse for the past while like I was out in the Philippines directing a video showcasing a factory seller for a company named Kota epoxy where we followed a sower and one of their factories kind of in a day to day in the life kind of with his really adorable family and his home and everything. So I think there's a lot of companies that are wanting to do that as well. We've seen a lot of like liquor companies or you know companies that want to show Okay, this is how this product is made factory origin right, they want to see the the, the people working with their hands and stuff. So I think there's a lot of marketing and branding work that will be coming out soon as well. And I think like I actually tend to agree with you that narrative filmmaking is cool with 360 but like you say it's more of an experience and I think documentary filmmaking can still have a place with 360 and I think it still will I don't know if it's still if it's still called a documentary you know film it's definitely different because like you say you're not really directing where people are looking yeah but like

Alex Ferrari 43:39
plant but like planet earth or or national juke any kind of wildlife documentary I mean, it's built for that kind of stuff. But like you're going to see you know, Fahrenheit 911 360 I don't really think so. You know, Bowling for Columbine, not really the 360 kind of movie but I think for for those kinds of documentaries those the anything nature based is or anything that you like, I'm gonna go see how how you know olive oil has made for lack of a better term I'm going to go to or wine and I'm going to go to the winery and you walk through but it's an experience it's different it's it's not new there it is kind of narrative but it's different so I think we're still we're still in the infancy basically of this oil slowly

Josh Gibson 44:29
I think people are still filling out you know where it's it's used well for you know, why why we should use it over another tool. And I and I guess it comes back to that foundation is something that I've always tried to work you know live by in my career is that you know, story is king. You know, your content is what matters. It doesn't matter if you're shooting with you know, fancy camera or not fancy camera. Obviously, tools are important. You want to have as good a gear as you can. But 360 video VR, that kind of thing is just another tool in the toolbox, right? So if you've got a story, or an experience or a message or anything that you're wanting to share share with somebody, you know, you should always still consider 360 is a possibility. But also, I think people should avoid and try to avoid the pitfall of shooting a 360 just because it's cool. You know, there, you see a lot of stuff where even commercials and stuff I'm like, Oh, that's cool. Like, it's cool. 360 but I, I don't know why they decided to shoot in 360 other than just to have 360 in the metadata. Right? Right. Right. So I think it's another tool in the toolkit and, and people should, you should respect it, obviously, and understand its power, and you know, how it can be used, but also avoid using it just for the sake of using it.

Alex Ferrari 45:34
Now, can you tell us a little bit about your awesome course on 360? Because I know you have a course telling us how to master this technology, sir.

Josh Gibson 45:44
Yeah, yeah, no, it's I appreciate that. It's it's a it's been a fun, you know, project passion project of love basically, put a lot of thought a lot of time into it. Basically, it's the problem that I wanted to solve where I you know, if you don't want to spend hours on Google, if you don't want to, you know, watch random tutorial videos. And there's a lot of great stuff out there. I don't mean to bash anything. But I kind of just wanted to put everything in one place. And I kind of OCD about that. So I had a lot of fun organizing it and figuring out the process in the workflow. And I wanted to put it all into one place where people can learn the A to Z, right, so pre production, everything from pre production, all the way to delivery. And, you know, and while I'm talking about this, as well, I'm also continually adding to the course. And I do kind of these virtual job shadows, if you will, where I'll be editing and putting together videos of me actually out working, I've got that geology shoot here coming up in a few weeks, and I've got, you know, whole crew ready to go out, and we're going to go shoot the video, obviously, but I'm also going to be doing education and teaching while I'm doing the project. So I'll be talking to the camera explaining why I'm doing certain things. So people can, you know, kind of come along and see how I work and see, you know, the choices that are making and how I'm making them why I'm making them. So it's a really cool course, it's a place it's it's kind of a community as well that I'd like to build where, you know, serious 360 filmmakers are wanting to come for feedback, they're wanting to be able to learn new things and kind of come to a place that's continually updating with, you know, the latest and greatest information. And, you know, that's kind of why I did it, because I love 360 video, I'm passionate about it. And you know, I feel like you know, people need to come together and learn together and I think it could be a really cool place.

Alex Ferrari 47:20
And and, and the hustlers the tribe, Josh has given us a cool discount on the course. And I'll leave that in the show notes. And I'll talk a little bit about that after we're done with this interview. But I'll give you all of that cool information. So now Josh, I have a few questions. I always ask all of our guests, so please prepare yourself for the Oprah questions. Okay. I'm ready. First and foremost, what advice would you give a filmmaker who's just wanting to jump into the 360 realm?

Josh Gibson 47:52
Well, yeah, that's a great question. Um, you know, the best advice I can give is to to worry more about creating and getting stuff made than a what people are going to think about it and to earn be how you're going to market it, I think that's one of the biggest downsides I see about people starting out is they're worried so much about their keywords, they're worried about their SEO, they're worried about, you know, all the technicalities of it, but they're not stressing as much on the actual creating and making and going out and making mistakes and, and, you know, having fun and enjoying the process. So that's what I would say go out and make and worry later about how to get, you know, the clients or get, you know, the views or whatever, I think the the important part is going out and creating and going through that process.

Alex Ferrari 48:39
Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Josh Gibson 48:44
Oh, man, that is a good question. I

Alex Ferrari 48:47
told you.

Josh Gibson 48:50
Okay, I would say, Gosh, I still even struggle with it, I think, but I think I'm getting a little bit better at not worrying about what other people think about my work. So obviously, you need to make money you need to, you know, your work needs to, to be what other people want a lot of the time, but I've learned that the reason anybody gets into filmmaking or you know, any kind of art, I think, for that matter is to obviously, I mean, it's fulfilling to you right for to making it for whatever it's worth and sometimes people don't like it, sometimes people do. I think the biggest thing for you know, is to go through that world and take note of feedback, take note of constructive criticism, but also don't take it too personally, you know, and don't let it affect your work. Don't let it discourage you from moving on. You know, if you have to make stuff that people hate for a few years, you know, that's part of the process and go through that and make it and then you'll learn and grow and eventually you'll be making stuff that everybody wants to see and yeah, I think that was that was kind of a lesson that you know, I'm still learning even where you just want to learn How to, I guess have thick skin in a way? Right?

Alex Ferrari 50:03
You definitely need that in this business. In any three nn e in one ad in 360 in all degrees you need thanks, Drew. So, um, so Name three of your favorite films of all time. Oh my gosh. It won't be on your gravestone. Just three that comes to your mind.

Josh Gibson 50:25
Come to my mind. Um, let's see. Gosh, so I always answered it. I probably will get judged by all my, you know, film school. You know, nerds, cinephiles, but Tommy Boy, yes. It's kind of a shameless plug. I mean, I

Alex Ferrari 50:46
mean, come on. It's Chris Farley.

Josh Gibson 50:47
It's It's classic. It's got everything you need, you know. Laughing crying. It's totally one of those movies for me. Let me see here.

Alex Ferrari 50:58
Yeah, I know. I know. When you ever do these lists, like so Akira Kurosawa and Bergman like nah man Tommy Boy I like all right, Tommy Boy Yeah, I mean I could get into the film school sure of course. Boring right yeah. Tommy Boy okay

Josh Gibson 51:12
um the one of the more recent ones that I saw that I absolutely loved as Logan I've seen that God is so amazed loved it it's so so good. It's the words it's a snow experience. Oh absolutely. I was blown away with how down to earth a superhero movie could be and that's what I was really impressed with that had all that superhero action but it just felt so raw and gritty and it was great. So that was what I really love too. And then let's go into the documentary world I think one that I saw at Sundance a couple years back called pervert Park I don't know if you've seen that I have not it's a basically about a an RV park where a bunch of you know perfect basically sec Yeah. sexual deviants I guess you could say people have been convicted of you know all sorts of terrible things they basically can't find living anywhere else other than this RV park so there's a bunch of pedophiles you know rapists terrible Oh Jesus that have happened at this one place and but it's interesting because it kind of takes you into their world a little bit in interviews with them talks with them about you know how what their history is how you know whatever happened happened so it's kind of a it definitely doesn't give you know like an okay to what they did but it definitely humanizes it a little bit. And it kind of opened my eyes to that that world and so if anybody's looking for a nice depressing really serious documentary go ahead and go watch pervert Park, but it's it's really well made really fantastic documentary filmmaking if you ask me

Alex Ferrari 52:43
so and then also after that, just watch Tommy Boy, and you'll be fine.

Josh Gibson 52:46
Yes. And then watch Tommy. Yeah, Tommy was

Alex Ferrari 52:49
asked. So Josh, where can people find you?

Josh Gibson 52:52
So I'm on pretty much any social media platform. My Yeah, of course, you can find me at the website. The course website. You can even chat with me at any time down at the bottom right there if you'd like. I'm on Twitter at Josh L. Gibson. Yeah, Facebook. I mean, you just search for me, my website is Josh gibson.me as well. So if you just want to go there, you can find I think it's the bottom left. There's all my social media icons and stuff. So if anybody were to reach out,

Alex Ferrari 53:20
if anybody needs a good 360 guide, give Josh a call. He'll help you out. So Josh, man, thank you so much for answering all of our questions, man, I really, really appreciate it.

Josh Gibson 53:30
No, I it's my pleasure. I'm very, very happy to come on and is great time.

Alex Ferrari 53:34
Well, if you didn't know anything about 360 video before, you definitely know something about it now. Josh was amazing. And thank you, Josh, so much for dropping some major knowledge bombs on us about shooting 360 I think as it's honestly a really interesting tool to tell stories in a unique way. I don't think again, like I said before, it's going to replace cinema as we know it. But it is definitely not a fad like smellivision or something like that. I do think it's going to be around for a while. And there is some definitely some potential for filmmakers to go out there, make a living, make money, do projects with it, so definitely check it out. And if you actually want to take Josh's course, which is the 360 Academy, Josh usually sells that course for $789, which honestly is a bargain based on what you're going to be getting out of if you're getting into the 360 world. But with the coupon code hustle, you get $679 or $689 off, so the course turns into $100 so that's a hell of a gift for all the indie film hustle tribe, looking to get into 360 video. So just go to www dot 360 video academy.com and type in the coupon code hustle to get $689 off the course again If you guys are really interested in 360 video, Josh's course is really great. I did take it. It's pretty awesome To tell you the truth and I learned a lot. So if you're into 360 video definitely check it out. I'll put a link and for everything we talked about in the show notes at indie film, hustle, calm, forward slash 157. And guys, if you'd like the show, please head over to filmmaking podcast calm and leave an honest review on iTunes. It helps out a lot. It really does help me out a lot helps the show get out there to more and more filmmakers. So please, head over to filmmaking podcast.com and leave a hopefully good review. Until next time, keep the hustle going. Keep that dream alive and I'll talk to you soon.