IFH 782: Turning Holiday Cheer into Chills: The Shaker Brothers’ Journey Behind Killer Christmas

Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:53
So on this episode of the podcast, I have two New Jersey filmmakers, third film, Killer Christmas, with guests Peter Paul and Tony Shaker. You know, you guys are from Jersey, I'm from Philadelphia, so we're about, like, what, like, two hours, three hours away from each other. So, you know, it's always good to see filmmakers in this area, because usually it's all from, right? It's all from New York, right? So I'm sure you, you guys have probably met a ton of filmmakers from New York, but how many have you met from Jersey?

Peter Paul Shaker 2:22
I don't know if I know any filmmakers in Jersey. I don't know about Mike. He's really more of an editor. Yeah, I don't think I know any filmmakers from Jersey, honestly. Yeah,

Dave Bullis 2:35
Well, I'll have to introduce you to some, but I would appreciate Yeah, but, but yeah. It's like, it's like, you know, people can name Kevin Smith, and like, once he left to LA, it's like, you meant, like, personally, I was actually setting up a joke, but I'm sorry. See this, what happens when I try to try to actually make a joke, you know, nobody, no, trust me, I should have stopped. But no, but all kidding aside, though, but you know, like, you know, personally, like, you know, and that's what I was trying to was say, was, in this area, you know, you have Philly, you have, you know, you have Jersey, and you have New York. And it's like, everybody either goes to New York or and if they go to Pennsylvania, they all go to Pittsburgh. And then if they, if they don't go to either one of those on the East Coast, they're all going to LA so it's like, you know, it's cool to have you guys on this podcast, because I like to hear about, you know, film communities that are around the area that people don't really necessarily think about. You know what I mean?

Peter Paul Shaker 3:29
I mean, it only you do this from anywhere you want in today's like, world, especially with, like, the equipment that's available at the price points that's available, like, we're doing it from our basement, pretty much from, like, a makeshift office. Like, if we don't even have to be in Jersey, we could be in the middle. In the middle of nowhere, like we filmed in the middle of nowhere, you know, we Yeah, I mean, like, it's, it's, it doesn't take much now to to get something done, actually,

Dave Bullis 3:53
Yeah. And you know, that's becoming, like, more apparent too, is that, you know, you hear about people like, like, famous rapper like Eminem, he has a studio in his basement. And the reason is that way he can just make stuff at his house. You know, he doesn't have to travel anywhere. And I think you know whether you make in your basement, your garage, or where I'm at right now, my office, I you know, it's just it doesn't really, we don't have to go to a studio anymore. You know what I mean? Like you don't have to go shooting a sound stage, or you don't have to go to out to LA or even to New York or so. You know what I mean, that you could actually shoot it in your own backyard.

Peter Paul Shaker 4:22
All the software now, like we use, I mean, we edited this film ourselves. We shot this film ourselves. We edited ourselves. But the editing like we use, you know, Adobe Premiere Pro and like we have, like, a monthly subscription, and we get access to the stuff that they're using in real studios, you know, around LA and New York. So it's not, it's not like we're using anything less, you know, our our equipment and our footage is all up to par, and we're doing it because you can buy that stuff at, you know, like Best Buy, or Amazon, or, you know, anywhere really, like at this point. So it's not even, uh, it's not, it's not hard to do stuff at a professional level. Obviously, the quality of our stuff, we're not saying is going to be, you know, these, some of these guys have years of experience, and, like, they've got a dozen films under the belt. Sure they're going to be able to do, do more with what, with what they've got. But, like, you could come in and as an amateur, and this is our first film, yeah, I thought it was, you know, for a first film, it's like 80 plus minutes. Like, it's not, you know, nothing small and nothing like, you know, to take lightly for us, at least, like we put a lot of effort into just the whole thing top to bottom. It was like you could do it if you, if you just want to, if you like, are willing to do all the work, right?

Tony Shaker 5:34
Yeah! Plus, I mean, having, uh, things like, you know, some things like YouTube, where every single person can tell you how to do every single thing imaginable. I mean, so you know, in the stuff where you end up getting held up and not really knowing which direction to go, you watch a couple videos, and people are like, here are things you can do that no one even told you about or you even imagined being able to do, you know, five years ago. But here it is, and now you can do it from your own home,

Dave Bullis 6:02
You know. And I wanted to ask that too, is if this guy, this actually was your first film. So did you guys start, you know, making like, like short films at first, or even, like a, you know, a quote, unquote student film, or did you just go right into making this film?

Peter Paul Shaker 6:16
Nothing, never made another, never made a previous film. And I've worked on like a dozen sets in like various capacities, and I've written like five or six screenplays, but I've never actually produced anything, not even a short film. So it was kind of like, you know, it's, uh, I mean, Tony basically, was like, let's just make a film. Let's, let's just do it. So it was like, why not? Right? Yeah,

Dave Bullis 6:43
Well, that's great, because I want to hear about the whole experience and everything like that. So so let's just go back to the beginning, right? So let's go back to where all this started, and where you sort of got the inspiration for for Killer Christmas. So you actually wrote the film based upon your own experiences, right?

Peter Paul Shaker 7:06
I mean, I don't want to say we'd be dead, but there would be some issues if that was our like experience. No, we, we, we go up Christmas tree shopping with our family to, like, the same Christmas tree field out in western Jersey, and it's a huge field, and they've got, like, this old retreat house across the street, and over, like, the last 20 years we've watched it go kind of abandoned, decrepit and, like, boarded up and stuff. And, like, this last year we were just kind of shooting the shit and, like, throwing out some ideas. And we kind of liked one of them, the one of them that basically became this film. Like, we liked it. Like, you know, the seeds of it were like, Oh, that'd be pretty cool, man. Like doing the Santa mask, he starts slashing people up. Like, it's totally something we could do, like, a holiday kind of fun thing. And like, you know, we love horror movies and like, there are some good Christmas ones, but it's still, like, very underrepresented. And, you know, it, we kind of just started throwing out ideas on a family trip. But like, the the actual story is not, like, true, it's totally fixed. It's just kind of a fun Shaden Freud, way to, like, introduce a dark character. But, like, the next week, Tony came in and was like, Dude, I want to quit my job and make this movie. Like, let's do it. Like, why not? And, you know, I'm, I'm a little older and more skeptical. He's much younger and less afraid of anything. So, like, you know, we kind of, he put up the buddy, and we just like, did it? You know,

Dave Bullis 8:29
It's kind of like the odd couple,

Peter Paul Shaker 8:31
Yeah, yeah,

Dave Bullis 8:33
But, but the reason I said that was because I remember in the intro email, it just said, inspired by 2016 Thanksgiving weekend, Christmas tree cutting chip. That's why I said it was extra experiences.

Peter Paul Shaker 8:45
It was inspired by family trip. But the the goings on of the film are not, are not real, fake.

Dave Bullis 8:56
Well, because, I mean, I imagine you that there have to be some, you know, something else had to happen because you obviously, I imagine you weren't, you know, chased by a killer or something, but, but you know they're saying, they say in writing, you know, when you're writing anything you know, write what you know. And the second piece of it, from of advice, usually, is, you know, hey, you could bring your own experiences to it. And whenever you bring your experiences to, like, a, you know, to anything like, hey, look, we got a crazy uncle. Or, hey, look, you know, this thing happened to me when I was a kid, and people sometimes don't understand it. You know what I mean? That's because they don't have, they don't have the context or the connection that that you might have to it, which is why I imagined, you know, when you had this trip, this Christmas tree cutting trip, there, you know, you probably had, you know, a pretty experience, one way or the other. And then, of course, you took it and said, hey, you know, this would be a really cool intro to a horror movie.

Peter Paul Shaker 9:47
I mean, it wasn't that cool, like, if we had a story like that, it would be awesome, because then we could say, like, loosely based on true events or something, but. No, I mean, we kind of were just spitballing like it's a little too dark for us to really be the big part of our real lives. You know, none of that comes from personal experiences. That's all just from the, you know, the imagination just kind of like, I mean, personally, I like writing things that are, like, real to life, like, not really supernatural. I know supernatural is kind of like hot right now, but like, you know, I think it's scarier when it's something that could be real. And like, you know, I think we've, you know, we live in a time where people are just fucked up in the head, and, you know, someone like this could actually exist, if not does exist. So it's, it's not like, inspired by life, but it's something that, like, you know, based on just kind of what you see in the news and in the media and in like, what happens every day. It's almost like something that, you know, it's like, holy shit. I bet someone like that does exist, or someone close to it, who's just, you know, just fucked up in the head, you know,

Dave Bullis 11:09
Yeah, there was just that, the guy on the the news the other day, where he, I don't know if you guys heard about this, he was like a madman, living in a house everyone had all the all these complaints against them, and he kind of, like, snapped finally one day and started driving around just randomly firing out of his car. Have you guys heard about that?

Peter Paul Shaker 11:26
No, was this the guy in Florida, like, that shot four people randomly, or is this, like a different thing? This is a different thing, oh man, because there's just okay then, yeah, no, I have not heard about that one.

Tony Shaker 11:35
It's sad that that's the question where it's like, is it this guy? Oh no, it's a different one. You know, like, oh man,

Dave Bullis 11:40
Yeah, I know. Seriously, there's so many of them. You're like, Wait, which 1am I talking about? I mean, it's just, yeah, if you don't laugh about it, you'll cry. I mean, it's just, it's, but, I mean, yeah, it's, I you know, there's, and they described it in the article. His neighbors described him as a madman, and they were like, This guy was constantly he was in his house firing off his gun, like he would go through the roof and shit, and the cops would come, and they would knock on the door. He refused to open the door, and they would leave. And I go, I don't even know if that's like, standard procedure. I don't know, but

Peter Paul Shaker 12:09
Just leave. When someone shoot off weapons, how do you know there aren't people in there that he's shooting?

Dave Bullis 12:13
Yeah, so, so, like, when I was reading this article, I'm like, it's just going deeper and deeper into this. And I'm like, How the hell did nobody stop this guy? Like, I mean, my God, but, but, you know, you mentioned, there's two things I also want to, want to touch on really quickly here, before I get into before we continue to on your on your journey. Because I want to ask Tony about quitting his day job. That's all. That's really, really cool. I want to ask you mentioned some holiday horror movies. So what are some of your favorite holiday horror movies.

Tony Shaker 12:41
I think that the you know, we're talking holiday horror movies, especially around Christmas time, I feel like Black Christmas kind of stands out on its own to some extent, just because that's a movie where you're in the perspective of the killer the whole time, which was such a unique thing that they did it when the movie was released. So you're the one sort of murdering people at times. And it's just this whole creepy kind of mind fucking and in that movie, you know, for anyone who's seen it, you know, you just, you just, you know how it ends, and you know how it progresses, and you know the sort of twists and turns that go along the way. So I feel like, I feel like that movie is just, it's a good one to look at.

Dave Bullis 13:23
How about you, Tony?

Tony Shaker 13:25
Oh, no, that was me. That was,

Dave Bullis 13:26
Oh, I'm sorry. How about you? Sorry about that.

Peter Paul Shaker 13:30
I mean, I liked Halloween. It was a nice, slow build. You know, I think the, I think Krampus was, I mean, it was scary. It was good. I mean, I feel like there aren't enough good ones, honestly, Halloween, Halloween is great. It's like a legend, you know, it's, it's classic, but, and ours kind of has, I hope it has a little bit of, like, a feel to it, like we did a couple of little omaji things towards it. And like, we're, you know, kind of like, especially with the pace build up and the, you know, the type of individual, but like, I know it just, I mean, I don't know, I'd say, like, Krampus and Halloween are probably my two favorites.

Dave Bullis 14:12
Have either of you seen Santa's sleigh? No, I have not. So it's the, it's just funny as hell. It's just, it's Bill Goldberg, the former pro wrestler. He portrays Santa, and who's actually really evil in the in this films timeline. And he's really evil, and he got, he had a curse put on him, so we had to give out gifts for kids every year, but this Christmas and the curse ends. So now he can go around and just like, brutalize everybody.

Peter Paul Shaker 14:42
Nice, nice. I will check that out then.

Dave Bullis 14:46
Yeah, I just, every year I make sure to watch Santa slay. I held on by the thumbs. Like, how good is this gonna be, man? You know it is. You know, got a pro wrestler in the movie. Come on. It's, it's freaking legend problem. Yeah, I know it. Did you what were. You a big wrestling fan growing up?

Peter Paul Shaker 15:01
I mean, I when I was in my much younger, younger days, and then on and off after that. But like, one of my, one of my good buddies, like runs, like a podcast, is, like, devout to wrestling, so I still randomly keep up on it. But like, when I was younger, man, yeah, I enjoyed it. But I was back in, like, the 90s when it was, like, just awesome,

Dave Bullis 15:21
Like Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior. Yeah, I see everyone remembers those guys, like the 80s and the 90s, you know. But like, no, nobody you know today, you could hold a gun in my head, and I couldn't tell you five people.

Peter Paul Shaker 15:33
No, I couldn't tell you who wrestler was, or No, I would have no idea. Yeah, it's like ultimate fighting. I mean, now it's more like mixed martial arts, because it's actually real. But like, back then, it was wrestling and boxing, like you could actually, you know, a big, a big prime time boxing match was awesome. Or watching, like a cage match, or like anything the Ultimate Warrior did, or like, you know, Ric Flair, like anybody. I mean, wrestling was more entertaining back then, and you knew it was entertaining, and if you wanted to fight, you just watched like, Tyson and Holyfield. They're like, any one of these Riddick bow or something. I'm dating myself, man, I'm old, older, at least.

Dave Bullis 16:13
No, I mean, all those box I mean, yeah, I remember all those guys too, man. And it's just like, you know, just just growing up as a kid, you know, in the in the 90s, I remember also warrior and Hogan and all those guys and, you know, macho man, Randy Savage and everything, you know, people still remember

Peter Paul Shaker 16:27
I had the whole scarf outfit going one one Halloween with the bandana and the glasses and, like, the BOA around my neck. Like, I did the whole thing, dude with the boots. Like, yeah. I mean, it's, you know, it was what, yeah, is a fun time to grow up. Man, look, which, honestly, like this film is, like, we tried to be as like throwback classic. I don't know if it came across like that, but like, we really wanted to be like one of these older kind of classic, like, you know, Friday, the 13th, you know, Halloween, like, 80s feel like, even from, like the color correction we put on it, to like the, you know, the kids running down the halls, to like certain, like creeping scenes and reveals, like they're supposed to just be, like old school throwback, like, just kind of, just like, you know, little kind of fun, scary, campy movie, you know,

Dave Bullis 17:18
Yeah. And I think, you know, 80s horror that seems to be like, you know, the absolute epitome of horror, like the horror genre, because there was so, you know, there was slashers coming out, but they were all unique in their own way. You had, you know, Halloween, you fight the 13th, you got nightmare, no street. You have a couple of the other ones. And, you know, and they all, they all, you were unique though. I mean, you wouldn't confuse, you know, Jason and Michael Myers, even though they both sound the same, if I described it to you, but I mean, they're both and the movies are completely different too, which is also a plus.

Tony Shaker 17:49
Plus, you got these great screen queens who came out around then and built careers on their incredible vocals, you know, like the great screams. Plus. I mean, I think, like with the film, when we were doing is, you know, we took technology out of it a lot, because that's something you see a lot more push these days where you'll have, like, very technologically based horror movies, I think

Peter Paul Shaker 18:08
So, like special effects and stuff like us has very little real, real effects. There's a couple blood things, but obviously, honestly, it's, you know, we did no practicals, no blood spurts. We just added a couple blood things digitally. But,

Tony Shaker 18:19
Yeah, but, but but even, like, on top of that, like, I remember there was a movie a couple years ago, I think it was a unfriended or something, where it's like a horror movie that takes place over people's computers, kind of thing. And, you know, I I get the the appeal when you're trying to do the, you know, appeal to the younger generation and the computers and the cell phones and everything. But there's something so unique about being detached from everyone and being in a place where, you know, you're stuck in the middle of the nowhere, and you don't have a computer, you don't have a phone, you don't have it in the woods kind of thing, you know, yeah, yeah, where it's, you know, that's it. You're stuck with your own wits about you, and, you know, good luck. So I think that that makes it so much scarier when you when you take away the screens that are sort of the fiction in our own lives, and you force people to sit there and see people without all these little distractions in them?

Dave Bullis 19:07
Yeah, you know, it was funny, because when I went to a screenwriting seminar one time, the instructor said the first thing you have to do when you sit down to write a screenplay is figure out how cell phones won't work.

Peter Paul Shaker 19:19
Yes, that's actually like, I kid you not. That's that's a task in every screenplay you like, especially if you want to be scary. You want to like, you know, create ways for your characters to not get help. You want to put obstacles. Because every time they have a goal that they have to achieve, you have to put at least one or two obstacles in their way, and like, figuring out clever, real ways to not have cell phone is, like, is an art. Like, it's not, it's not a it's not easy. You can't just be like, the world has no cell phones. Like, that's not like a thing, especially if you wanted to be real, you know like,

Dave Bullis 20:00
yeah, no, I agree with you completely.

Peter Paul Shaker 20:06
I never heard that being taught in a in a course like but now that you say it like, that's totally true, it really is a real important thing to do,

Dave Bullis 20:14
Yeah, you know, because everyone has a cell phone nowadays, but, you know, and it's funny though, whenever I watch a horror movie and they get no reception. You know, friends of mine, they're like, Oh, come on, seriously. And I go, Look, I'm in my office sometimes, you know, and we're in the middle of Philly, right?

Peter Paul Shaker 20:28
Of course, oh yeah.

Dave Bullis 20:29
I'm, like, leaning out the window, going, all right, I think anyone's got a bar here? And, you know, I have two phones. I have an iPhone and an Android. Neither one gets any service. And I'm like, All right,

Peter Paul Shaker 20:33
Well, actually, the place where we were filming, we actually had no service. Had legitimately no service. This place was, as you see in the movie, it's like a six story, 155 room, abandoned hotel, you know, in the middle of this little, small town in upstate New York that no one's ever heard of. And it's like, we call, it's called, we'll shut we'll shout it out, though, yeah, Sharon Sharon springs. It's where the sulfur bats are. Sharon springs, yeah, everyone, don't get me wrong, everyone, there's awesome,

But it's fun. It's like, really, for it's like two, three and a half hours away from New York City, at least, at least,

Yeah, we also drove up in the middle of a snowstorm, so it took us closer to, what, eight hours, maybe, yeah, like eight hours we first got up. It was great for the scenery, like our all our stuff is snow covered. But in terms of, like, setting up, like that first day of getting there was just literally an eight hour drive through, you know, a snowstorm, like 2020, miles an hour up 87 going all the way up, like past Albany and out towards Syracuse, this place, yeah.

Tony Shaker 21:39
And then when we got there, that was a own number of scary events to begin with. Yeah. I mean,

Peter Paul Shaker 21:45
Yeah. Sorry, go ahead.

Dave Bullis 21:47
No, I was just gonna say, did you guys document this? Did you guys, like, take out a, like, a mini handheld or anything, to document some of this?

Peter Paul Shaker 21:54
We did not. We should have, actually, so

Tony Shaker 21:56
We did get a lot of behind the scenes stuff when we were walking around the abandoned hotel, because we started hearing noises pretty early on, and footsteps were

Peter Paul Shaker 22:06
Literally like when we first drove up there, the first time there was like a flutter of noise in the hotel, and then went real quiet, and it was us two, and our cinematographer, Marco, and we, we, we like all right away, looked at each other Like, you heard that, right? It's like, yeah, we definitely. Heard that. So, like, we went in, we tried to to get into this place because it was all boarded up. We had to undrill the doors and then put on a padlock so that we could go in and out. And, you know, we walked in, we searched around, like you could hear some noise and different levels, and it would go quiet. So, like, we kind of like we're real creeped out. So we put, like, a listening to a microphone, and we recorded a couple of hours of sound, and then, you know, we heard when we played it back later on that day, like we heard all kinds of shuffling, all kinds of random noises, but never any voices. So then, like, the next day, we went in and basically, like, walked around the whole place, and that's when we took footage. So we have like, you know, an hour or so of walk around footage on our YouTube page that's like us literally just kind of walking around this house, kind of like telling whatever vagrants might be there that we'd be shooting a film and that they needed to clear out. And that, like, because this was, like, in the three or four days that the three of us went up to kind of prep everything to make sure we had our shots set up, to make sure our generator was working, to make sure we had everything good to go, so that when like, the rest of the crew and the actors came up, you know, we hit the ground running.

Tony Shaker 23:29
Yeah, yeah. Like, I remember that first day in the fresh powder of the snow. I mean, we found sets, multiple sets of footprints all around the the hotel trying to get in. So, I mean, like, right away we were kind of like, oh, god,

Peter Paul Shaker 23:42
Yeah. Like, the landlords had told us, like, the real estate company that bought up the abandoned building, and, like, they bought up a bunch of properties, and we're fixing up a different one. They're like, look some Vagrant, even though they boarded it up. They're like, some Vegas during the colder winter months. Kind of try to come through here and looking for shelter. If you see any, just show them away. They'll leave. We're like, we're not really, like, qualified or capable to do that. And like, you know, thankfully we didn't see any but like, you know, there were times people would come screaming around a corner because, like, the wind in the window flickered the blinds and they thought someone was in one of the rooms, and they come screaming around a corner. And now three of us got to go with flashlights and, like, holding up, like a chair leg to make sure, like, nothing's going on, you know, like,

Tony Shaker 24:24
Mind you, we were only filming at night. So we were filming from like, 6pm to, like, you know, 7am the next day, obviously, with lunch breaks and all that stuff. Yeah. I mean, it was just,

Peter Paul Shaker 24:33
It was like, yes, that a night. We had, like, all battery operated, you know, lights with like, blue gels on them for the moonlight. And then, like, we had a generator running outside that we ran like, 200 feet of taped together like extension cords through windows so that we could get our smoke generator, like our smoke machine working, because we wanted to haze the whole floors for every shot. But we had to have the generator outside, because there's no like, the whole building has, like, no sprinklers, no. So, you know, no no, no electricity, no power, like, so we couldn't have any kind of, like, combustible stuff inside. So, like, it was cold as hell. You know, people's breath was going up and, like, yeah, it was, I mean, it was a crazy, crazy, crazy, shoot, like, it was really fun. It was awesome. But, like, you know, it was, it was as cold as it looked, like it was definitely

Tony Shaker 25:20
And it was also pretty scary, just in general being in that place, oh yeah. I mean, especially because there was one of the one of the first days, we actually ended up finding a couple entrances wide open into this hotel. One of them ends up being the main entrance used by these kids in the movie, literally just a door that was just wide open, but you could just walk through, no problem.

Peter Paul Shaker 25:40
Well, you had, you had to go through a little bit of a little entryway in the back that was filled with litter and debris to get to the door. But the door itself was open into the kitchen. So, like, if you knew about it, like you could get in there. Yeah. I mean, we ended up chaining that up. But then there was one day when we went back for the chains and, like, there was, like, glass shards in the chain rope, like someone had put it there to, like, booby trap it when we were trying to untie it. And we're like, Dude, that's kind of messed up. Like there was definitely someone. Well, we think there could potentially have been someone in the hotel, you know, it was a large enough place, and we were pretty loud and noisy, so they could always probably stay away from us. But, like, you know, plus, we never touch the basement. We never went to the base. Too scary. We went with the manager to, like, check it out. We literally went, like, to the bottom of the stairs, kind of like, peak left and right. And even he was like, Yeah, let's just go back upstairs. We all just went right back. None of us the basement, because it has no, like, no windows, no lights, nothing like pitch black, and it's way through. And it's, like, amazing, huge. Yeah, yeah. He was, he was like, yeah, like, if you want kids to get lost in here, I'm sure you can make that happen. And we're like, No way. No. We're not trying to get anyone, like, actually lost. We're trying to get everyone back home.

Dave Bullis 26:50
Yeah, it'll become like the Blair Witch Project. We're like, where the hell how do we get to this basement,

Peter Paul Shaker 26:54
Do not be afraid that, like, suddenly, like this would become a found footage movie. Yeah?

Dave Bullis 27:03
Yeah, and see, like, filming in a place like that is a journey of itself. And, I mean, so I wanted to ask, you know, and also, this is a two part question here. I wanted to ask, first, you know, Tony, you mentioned earlier about quitting your job to make this film. So what was that like? I mean, I want to ask too about, you know, how you guys went about producing this and even writing this, but I mean, Tony, at first, you know, you said you wanted to quit your job, and so did you just decide one day I'm literally just gonna quit my job?

Tony Shaker 27:32
I mean, so we went Christmas tree cutting. We always go the weekend of Thanksgiving, so that I think we might have gone on a Saturday, and I think literally, the next Monday or something, I came home from work it was like, Yeah, I'm quitting my job. So we're, we're gonna make this movie, or something like, you know, you know, let's do this. And for me, it was something where I've always loved movies. I've been binging them, instead of doing real like school work and stuff like that when I was a kid, and then that carried on into adulthood instead of doing other stuff. So just a real passion for movies. And I guess some point, I had the itch, you know, to try to see what it was like on the other side of things. So it was something that was in the back of my head. And then, you know what, we were coming up with, this idea on the Christmas tree farm and, and I sort of was toying with the idea over the weekend. I was like, you know, this is, this is doable. Like, this isn't something where, you know, like, this isn't this, this crazy blockbuster film that needs to be done, where it's like, you know, insane special effects and stuff like, this is a movie that we could actually make and and hopefully make well. And I think it, you know, came out pretty good, especially for a first movie. And so that, to me, was what was going through my head. And I said that, you know, I have, I have plenty of time in life to to do the fit, to do the responsible, quote, unquote, move, and not quit my job and make a movie. But I don't know how many opportunities I'll have to really jump on it. So I figured, you know, might as well strike while the, you know, the embers are hot and see what happens.

Dave Bullis 29:01
You know, I really like that sentiment, Tony. I really like that sentiment because I think sometimes it happens actually, most of the time it happens in reverse, where they do the responsible thing first, and they go to make their movie, and they're like, Well, maybe I'll make it next year, next year, next year. And then it never actually happens until, you know, they reach, you know, the age of, I don't know what you know, whatever you whatever you want to be, fill in the blank, and then all of a sudden it's like, well, now I have a wife, I have kids, I have a mortgage, I have a car payment. How the hell can I quit my job to go make a movie?

Tony Shaker 29:31
Yeah, exactly. I think there's a great one. I want to say it's someone like Bill Burr, or someone I can't remember exactly, though. He says, you know, scariest thing in life isn't, isn't sleeping on a futon when you're whatever age it's. It's waking up next to a wife you don't love, with kids you hate, and a mortgage on your head in a dead end job that you never want to go back to. You know, that's the scariest thing. You know, I take sleeping on a futon every single time over that and and I think that's a that's a line that sort of stayed with me ever since i. First heard it, and

I think it's a great line, because, you know, that's the truth. Too many people get roped into this, this sort of, you know, rat race we call life and and they end up in a position where they can't take a gamble or take a chance on something, you know, because they've sort of put so many external, you know, things on and I feel like that to me, was my mentality. I said, you know, I'm in the place where I don't have all these, all this baggage, all these different things on me, where I can take this opportunity and not have it negatively impact, you know, all these people like wife and the kids and all these things. So I said, Screw it, you know, like, if I want to do the responsible thing, I'll do it in 20 years, but I'm gonna take a chance right now.

Dave Bullis 30:51
Yeah, and that's the thing too. Now it's almost, in today's world, it's almost, if you don't take a chance, that's that's even riskier than than not taking a chance.

Peter Paul Shaker 31:02
Yeah, the grind sucks when no one wants to do like the regular I mean, it's yeah, like, I had a regular job for a while, and, you know, it sucked. Like being, being a creative person and chasing stuff is definitely better. It's definitely, you know, it's more stressful, it's less financially secure, but it's definitely satisfying.

Dave Bullis 31:24
Yeah, you feel like you're actually making, you know, you're actually making a difference. You know what I mean, it actually feels good. You know what I mean? It's not like, Oh, I'm just going to work to make, you know, to do this their job. I really don't want anymore.

Peter Paul Shaker 31:33
Yeah, where you put, like, 40% effort and you surf the web all day, like, what's the point? You know? You know, it's not a way I just want to do things, you know, spend the next whatever amount of time.

Dave Bullis 31:46
Yeah, it's and, I mean, hey, the reason I started this podcast, man. I mean, I was working a multimedia job at the college I graduated from, and they passed me over for a promotion one day. And I was like, listen, every day I get the shit kicked out of me here. And I was, and I have, and like, You guys aren't gonna, like, reward me for it. Like, I mean, I literally, to be honest with you, Peter, like, and Tony, I was getting like, ever I was floored. From the time that I got in there to the time I left, I was just getting like, ding, like, Shit, yeah. And I was like, where's the reprieve here? So, like, you know, and I mean, finally, you just got to I started having something creative because I couldn't make any movies, because one, I didn't have the time, and two, I was just, it was like, non because of the job. It's like, non stop. You go home and you're like, you're carrying it with you, like, god damn it. I hate that guy. You're sitting there

Peter Paul Shaker 32:36
Time when you're working 40-50, hours a week, plus the commute, plus, like, you know you're not getting a full night's sleep because you got to get up early in the morning. It's hard. Morning. It's hard to do things when you get home in the evening. And then Saturday, Sunday, you just want to chill like, you don't, you don't want to, like, say, Okay, I'm gonna go have a 12 hour day on set now, like, I'm gonna go, you know, do something like creative, because you just don't have the energy for it. You need to recharge. Like, it's super hot, you know, I've been writing for a long time, and I used to try to write on nights and weekends, and like, you just don't get as much productivity as you do. Like, when you give it your good hours during the day, like, you're, you know, 10 to 3pm and you're, like, in a zone, and you're energized and you're focused, and it's like, you know, I'd rather have those hours for myself than, like, give them away.

Dave Bullis 33:20
Yeah, very true. It's just, it makes you it's more fulfilling, you know, it's, it's what you want to do. And you know that. That's why you know you guys, you know, Tony, you quit your job, and you guys went out and made this film. So, so, just to, you know, continue along with, with actually making, you know, killer Christmas. Did you guys, you know, when you were writing the script? You know, was there any sort of, do you guys read? You know, did you grab a book, you know, from, you know, the 10,000 screenwriting books out there, did you grab a book? Or did you just, you know, just start writing.

Peter Paul Shaker 33:50
I mean, so, like, we came up with the idea on, like, a broad stroke level, but like, in terms of writing, it like, I mean, I, personally, I've written seven or eight scripts at this point, a couple of them have, you know, made some rounds and like, I, you know, I've learned how to write a script in terms of, like, what is the, you know, the three act concept, plot point one, plot point two, the middle, you know, kind of Defining Moment that changes things, like, there's in terms of structurally writing, like it's something I've been working on, you know, for the last about 10 years now. I started in Oh, seven seriously writing. So, like, writing the script was something like, once we got the idea it was, we punched it out in about a month, writing, you know, three or four hours a day, every day, almost every day, five, six days a week. And then we had a first draft from we had a first draft by New Year's we and then we kind of, like, polished it up at the very beginning of January. But like, in terms of writing, it's more of like, it's like, I. This point, you know, it's, it's like, once you know what you you so, like, the way I write, at least, and the way we've kind of write, written together, is that, like, you know, we build our storyboard, we build our concept, we figure out who our characters are. You come up with the moments in your script you've got, you know, your introductory act, one, who is everybody. Well, first, at least, the way you know this one is, is you have an inciting event at the very beginning, which kind of sets the tone. And then after that, you have Act One, which tells you who the players are. And then you have plot point one, which establishes a goal for the players, something they're going to do. And then you have act two, a which is essentially, you know, the players on their journey. And then you have something crazy that happens in the middle that flips the journey on its head. And then you've got act 2b, which is the reeling period where, you know, shit hitting the fan. And then you have plot point two, which is the movement to regroup and like the RE energized, you know, a new goal is set, and, you know, stakes are heightened. And then you have plop, you know, the Act Three, where it's, you know, now you got to go do what you're setting out to do, whether it's escape or, you know, kill or be killed, or whatever it is, right? And so, like, in terms of structure, you know, we build out our outline. We figure out who the characters are and in and what they're doing in each one of these moments of the script, and then you kind of plot it out. And like, you know, we come up with like, a 1012, page outline that basically lays out every single scene. So we have just a whole, you know, kind of from beginning to end. We know scene one is going to be a. Scene two is going to be, you know, B. Scene three is going to be whatever. And then in each one of these scenes, who the characters are, what their motivations are, what their intents are, what, you know, what they're trying to get, what's going on. And then, like, what are, you know, what is the purpose of the scene? Like, the scene is to, you know, establish who people are, or to lay kind of a red herring, or to give motivation, or to whatever, right? And then after that's all kind of laid out, and you know your whole story, and you know your characters, and you know the way the plot line is going to work, then you start writing. Then you say, okay, act one scene, one page, one you know, I know that in this seat I need these 10 things to happen. And now you just write it. And then after you write the scenes, and you get it all down, you know, you start polishing. You start working the dialog. You ask friends to read it, you know, you get people's feedback. You see people are, you know, Characters or plot lines are believable or not. Like we, you know, we are lucky that we have a large family and siblings who are interested in our creative pursuits. So like, they'll give us pretty quick feedback. And I've got a few friends who are readers who, you know, I'll send them a script, and they'll, they'll, they'll, you know, within a few days, they'll tell me what they think of it. And so, you know, then we do a couple rounds of polishing. And like, you know, by like, mid January, we already cast, you know, we were already in the casting process. And like, our script was pretty much done. But then when we went to filming, you know, obviously, like we want, we gave our cast like the script and, you know, for rehearsals, and we had one rehearsal where they all got to do a read through and kind of work with each other a little bit, and then they take it home. But like, our whole thing was like, you know, you're not married to the words on the page. We want you to like, get the moment. We want you to like, you know, be there with the character. So, you know, even if it's a couple words off, or even if you bring something to your, you know, your own little flavor, granted, some of the actors brought stuff we didn't like, and it ended up on the editing room floor, but some of the actors did things we didn't expect. So like, there's a give and take there, you know, as long as you're hitting the main points of the of the script, and, like, you know, 90% of it was as written, but, you know, there's some liberties taken here and there, and, you know, putting a button on the scene, or, like, you know, just giving it your own kind of, like, creativity. So you gotta, you know, we, you know this, the script is like a living thing. It's never gonna be, you know, if you, if you, right now, transcribe the film after the fact, and what you have right now at the end product was probably never what it looked like at any point along the way.

Dave Bullis 39:11
Yeah, and that, by the way, that was a really good, you know, screen that was almost like a screenwriting question of itself. By the way, that was really good.

Peter Paul Shaker 39:18
Thanks, man. Yeah, I've, I mean, I'm a self taught screenwriter. I mean, I my trainings as an attorney. So, like, I worked, you know, really boring jobs. And, you know, I've looked I know how to write. I'm a formulaic writer. But, like, in my mid 20s, I knew I hated being, you know, I hated the track I was on and and, you know, I basically decided, you know, I wanted to be a writer. And so, like, you know, I got all the books I, you know, wrote my first couple screenplays suck. They still suck, you know, but like, you gotta, it's all about repetition. It's about exercise. It's about doing it over and over. It's about, you know, there's no one way to write it.

You get, you know, five different people's information, and then you kind of build your own, your own method, and no two screen plays you write are ever going to be the same anyway. So they're not going to follow the same method. They're just kind of generally going to have the same bigger picture. And then you just, you know, you work with your specific details as they go, as they you know, on each one,

Dave Bullis 40:30
Yeah. And, you know, I think when you we get into writing, you know, you have finding your own voice is really key to all of this, you know, I know there's, you know, 1000s, like I said, there's like, 10,000 screenwriting books out there, but until you actually add your own voice to all of this and and actually start to make your own special sauce, I mean, you're just gonna, it's almost like a boiler plate template, you know what? I mean, it's almost like, well, you know, you don't want to have something where somebody reads and, well, anybody could have written this, you know, then you're just sort of like a face in the crowd,

Peter Paul Shaker 40:57
Sure, but the boiler plate template, like, you have to, like, you have to know how to write before you can, like, write freely. So, like, the boilerplate templates good to just say, okay, you know, I can't be doing act one things and act two, I can't be laying out who introducing new people for the first time, you know, halfway through the script, because no one's gonna be able to people are, there's no foundation for it. So, like, there's certain formulaic things that definitely, you know that? I mean, yes, you can be a super creative avant garde director and, like, throw everything on its head, but 90% of films that actually reach the audience follow like the generic, you know, Act One, act two, act three, like template, yeah, you got to bring your own flavor all the way through. You got to, you know, your characters have to have life. They have to have purpose, you know, they have to have their own individual voices. They can't, you know, all be like, you know, this the same kind of, like, analogous person, like, you know, so it's, yes, there's, there's a lot of art to it, and there's a lot of form. But I think, like, they're both just as important when you're talking about, like, getting 100 page work or a 90 page work, like, you know, there's, there's a long, there's a long, there's, like, a very big picture you have to put together, and then you got to be really artistic within it,

Dave Bullis 42:19
Yeah, and it's like I, you know, I've said before in the podcast, too. I think, like the templates, the bullet plate, you know, templates and stuff. I think it's a kind of, like training wheels, you know, you have to, you know, get used to riding a bike, and then you can take them off and go, Okay, now, you know, now I've had experience riding a bike, and I don't need these training wheels anymore.

Peter Paul Shaker 42:37
Yes, absolutely. Yes, exactly, exactly.

Dave Bullis 42:40
So, so as you, you know, you actually, you know, wrote this draft of of killer Christmas, you know, you sent it to some people you know, did a couple more drafts, and you finally had a shooting script. So now, how did you guys, you know, once you finally had that draft that you were ready to shoot, you ready to go. So how did you guys go about getting the location? Because this is just, a note before you before you answer. I always say locations are the hardest things for filmmakers to get, and sometimes filmmakers are aware of it. Sometimes they're not, because, you know, if you have a big contact list, it makes location getting a tad bit easier, because usually locations want insurance, they want to ask you, like, 10,000 questions about stuff, which is all understandable, but you know, how did you guys go about getting this whole entire Christmas Tree Farm?

Tony Shaker 43:24
So, so the the Christmas tree farm and the and the hotel were actually two different places. In our mind, we actually, like, we went into this and we're like, Oh, sweet. We're gonna use this location that we've been to, God knows how many years for how many Thanksgiving weekends it's cut the tree. So we, we approached them, and they're like, yeah, no, no, we're not. We're not a big fan of having people running around, screaming, being murdered around here. And, you know, shockingly so from there it was, it was a lot of online research. I mean, we were, you know, for the Christmas tree one. I mean, we were just looking up different farms all over the place. We started visiting a couple, and then, you know, within a couple hour drive of us, and then we ended up coming across this very nice couple who had a great farm, but it was right by a highway. And so you were getting a lot of background noises, which was something that we hadn't really thought about going into it because, you know, we thought that the farms would be more secluded. They gave us a pamphlet of a ton of tree farms, and we just started hitting up a bunch of those guys. Yeah, it was like a directory, basically, yeah, of like tree farms in the Northeast region. Oh, yeah. So, so we started contacting a bunch of these guys. Start going to different farms. For some reason, every single time we visited a farm, I just, I really had to pee and couldn't find a bathroom, so he literally, yeah, we

Visited, and he found a way to piss on every single, every single tree farm I had to go pee. And then, funny enough, douche bag, the one that we found and that we ended up using, was the only one I didn't have to pee at, yeah, so maybe it was a size.

Peter Paul Shaker 45:00
A sign from my bladder. This was the one. And then, you know, as far as the the abandoned places, I mean, we want visited all sorts of places all over the place. You know, I think there was, like, a girls what was it? Like, an old girls school? I think one of them was a penitentiary one, yeah, like, we found, like, something called, like, the art of abandonment. A website, of, like, it's like an urban exploring thing where people sneak into abandoned places and they take pictures and they post it up. So like, we found a bunch of places on this and then we started tracking down the owners. Because, like, some of these places were, you know, in liens or in bankruptcy or completely abandoned. And like, then we started setting up meetings and driving around to places and like, we were really lucky to find this hotel, you know,

Tony Shaker 45:46
Yeah, yeah. I mean, so we ended up finding this hotel, which is actually owned by this group that owns a couple different big air, big plots of land in that, in that Sharon Springs area, you know, trying to build, bring the sulfur baths back, because that's a big thing in Sharon springs. And so they had just started work on one of the plots of land, and we had approached them, thankfully, they hadn't touched the Adler Hotel, which is where we filmed, yet. And we said, hey, you know, we're interested in filming here. And you know, they were a bit hesitant at first, because obviously, you know, the whole running around, people getting killed and all that stuff. Seems like, you know, not the most ideal way to go about it, but, you know, they were super cool with it. We ended up, you know, striking a deal with them, you know, combination of cash. And also, we bought them of this awesome 4k drone that they could use to track the progress of all the sites that they were building up upon. And yeah, so they ended up letting us go up there and film there and and really make the place our own.

Dave Bullis 46:49
And, you know, that is absolutely freaking fantastic, by the way, that you guys were able to go to all these different places and also look them up online. Because I'm telling you, you know, that's right. What I mean by locations are the hardest thing to find for filmmakers, because, you know, just being finding a place that's cool with this stuff, see, that's what I mean, you know. And it's like I said to Alex Ferrari, and any film hustle, you know, there's two things they usually ask. They ask, but beyond, if you have insurance, but they usually ask, is there nudity? And will there be blood? And, you know, if, usually, if it's,

Peter Paul Shaker 47:20
We actually had to get because of the insurance things. They asked us those things, and we didn't do any nudity or any practical blood effects so that our so that we could get insured for these things.

Dave Bullis 47:29
Yeah, yeah. And yeah, because I've dealt with insurance insurance before, and I remember one of the questions on the actual form we were filling out with the with the law firm, they actually, which actually dealt with the insurance. They were like, there was actually a box that said, will there be nudity? There's another one said, will there be, you know, practical effects, like Allah, Gore, etc, and they were listing it all out. And I'm like, Wow, I've never seen this before, but that stuck out my mind, because now every time you go, you to film somewhere, that's like, the two big questions they always ask, Will there be nudity. Will there be gore?

Peter Paul Shaker 48:03
Yeah, and, like we act, yeah, we had to, we had to make sure that, you know, we didn't do any blood stuff, that, you know, the weapons we got were, were not real weapons, like the weapons, you see, we actually had them made at some at a place called the specialist in Brooklyn, like they do custom, like props for all kinds of sets, like, real big movies. And they've got, like, a big kind of armory with all kinds of weapons. And, you know, they do manufacturing of like, they basically did our big slasher knife and our little bowie knife. And both of those things, as real as they look, are, like rubber on plastic with, like, you know, really nice paint, and, like, fun edging and trimming and stuff like, so, so, I mean, yeah, we had to do all that stuff to make sure insurance was, like, you know, would, would actually ensure the production. We couldn't use any blood spatter, even, even, like, little like, blood packets. We couldn't use those, anything that was attached to an actor that could potentially pop on them or burn them, or, like, you know, all kinds of stuff. So like, yeah, it's a real, it's a it's a real concern. And like, you know, obviously the locations told us that we needed to provide insurance, which we knew right away. So like, you know, as long as you get that done and you do everything by the book, you know, you can, you can do it and, like, you know, add it in later in post production, and shoot it in a way that you don't need as much blood. Like, it's really not as gory as it's, like, it's not gratuitously Gore, you know, yeah,

Tony Shaker 49:33
We're not looking at, saw here. We're looking at more classic Halloween, yeah,

Dave Bullis 49:38
Yeah. And I imagine too, because, like, as we were talking about gore and stuff like that, it's kind of hard to of hard to, you know, go, go into a place and be like, you know, hey, we're just going to spray blood all over this place. I mean, maybe you could have did in the basement. There would have been down there,

Peter Paul Shaker 49:53
There would have been blood already. Yeah, she mentioned Alex at Indie Film Hustle, we, we, we wrote an article. I. For them that was just published last week. It's called how we made 4k feature film for under 50, for under 50 grand, and it has our whole budget breakdown in there. And it has, like, you know, we kind of just wrote an article, a step by step on, like, the things we're talking about now, and like, all kinds of different, you know, things you need to be looking out for. And like, how much, how much we spent on, like, different line items and whatnot. So like that that's out there. I mean, you know, Alex is a cool person, and, you know, really helped us out and, like, let us put our story up. So it was, it was, it was nice.

Dave Bullis 50:44
Yeah, Alex is a good guy. And by the way, everyone I'm going to link to that in the show notes. That's really freaking cool.

Peter Paul Shaker 50:49
Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. It's on our Facebook page. That's, that's, that's, that's the only place we know, obviously, except for it's on indie film hustle and our Facebook page. So if you want to anywhere you want to find it. So, yeah, cool.

Dave Bullis 51:02
And I'll make sure to link down the show notes. But, and which is really, really cool, because actually, you know, Alex and I were really good friends. We talk all the time, awesome. And, yeah, so, so it's Yeah, because you know us indie film podcasters, like we all stick together, like we all know each other. So, but so you know, as you guys are making this, you know, being this, being your first film, was there ever a point in a time where you just said, What the hell we got ourselves into?

Peter Paul Shaker 51:28
A lot, yeah, I mean, but there's, yeah, there are definitely fights and, like, you know, all kinds of tense moments and, like, you know, things that, like, if this thing doesn't happen, holy shit, we're done, like, everything's over, like we did all this fucking work for nothing, bro. Like, yeah, you know, so that, you know, sometimes things just rolled along and you were like, Oh man, it's all working out. It's all it's all come together. And then, like, you'd hit something, and you're like, holy shit, bro. We're never, like, we couldn't find a choir for the longest, and then suddenly we found a choir. And then it was expensive, but it was what we wanted, right? Like, it was these kids, they're out in Utah. We wanted this. Like, we want them to sing these creepy Christmas songs. Like, you know, we got to do it. It took us three months just to find them. Let's, let's do it, right? Like, you know, the location stuff. Like, it was tough to do. It was a drag. Like, I mean, we were talking like, there are days we drive an eight hour round trip in the day to go check out four places, right? Like, you know, and like, eating lunch on the road and just being exhausted me, like, Dude, we're never going to find a fucking place that we can use, like, especially because we trying to get something in that winter time the snow. So, you know, we were on a tight deadline with that. So, like, yeah. Like, we were doing that, yeah. Like, we were like, basically, like, yeah, we want to shoot a month from now. Yeah? Like, um, okay. No, no one, you know, no one had that availability. But we luckily found places that in February were dead, like a Christmas tree farm. After Christmas doesn't really do much until, you know, they this one has like a flower, like greenhouses and stuff, and they make like flowers that they send down to New York City. They're up in Red Hook New York. They're called, it was, J, F, W, F, W, benfeld and Son, Christmas tree farms. But they do all kinds of, like, flower things, and they send them down to New York or up to Boston. And like, that's kind of what they do to to make do in the winter. And, like, they're like, yeah, man, no one's using Christmas tree farms. I mean, like, dude, half the time there are people out on snowmobiles. They had like, 130 acres and big, like, big hills and stuff. And we'd be shooting on one hill, and it'd be snowmobiles chilling out, ripping around on the next hill, and we gotta, like, be like, Dude, can you guys keep it down for like, an hour so we can just, like, keep shooting, because you hear it in the background, and it's like, you know, we're trying to, like, do, yeah, it was, uh, that sometimes it was, sometimes it was awesome. Sometimes it was like, you know, we're not, you know, we're on the brink of, not, of collapsing, right? But like, it never, you know, once you're in it, like, there's no turning back, like there's, you know, there's no like, there's no quit, like, at this point. So you gotta, you gotta just keep doing it, you know, yeah,

Dave Bullis 54:01
Yeah. The only way out is through. So, yeah. So what you guys committed, you just had to keep going so and, you know, being again, this being your first film, you know what was? What was just the number one biggest production issue, whether it be a location, whether it be weather, whether it be something that happened. And you know, what was, what was that one biggest thing, that one biggest obstacle you ever came

Peter Paul Shaker 54:26
Sound, sound, yeah, sound is like. Sound is so under rated, like it's, you know, because we were shooting, you know, in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere, with everything battery operated, we were using like a shotgun on a boom, and, you know, our sound guy, we also had a mic on the camera set up. So we had two, two potential, you know, versions of anything that was said. And we're lucky we did, because sometimes one wasn't on, one wasn't working. One battery did this. Is, you know, one of them had bumps on it because we were in the middle of the nowhere and like, someone would hit something or so, like sound is definitely, you know, something that, like, you know, in hindsight, we probably, we, I mean, it's good now, because we got, like, you know, sound engineers to level out, you know, all kinds of things. And like that itself is obviously a whole process, the post production process, and then getting arrangements for music and everything like that, and then doing fully and then like, yeah, sound is definitely something that I think you know on the next one we will, we will give more focus to before we even start filming?

Tony Shaker 55:42
Yeah, yeah. Because sounds, sounds the one thing where it's, if you watch a movie and you don't recognize the set, or like you're not paying attention to the sound at all, that means it's, it's done well, if you pay attention to the sound, that means it's done poorly. You know, like, it's one of those things where you only notice it when it's bad, but not when it's good. And so it's tricky. It's tricky because, you know, too many people under appreciate it, and, you know, that's okay, we definitely want to focus more on going forward.

Dave Bullis 56:08
Yeah, sound is one of those things. I had Kelly Baker on here, and he's a sound designer for, like, all Gus fans, ants films, and he actually wrote a book, and he about about sound design, and he said it's usually one of the, like, last things that filmmakers think about. And it's so true. Because even when I was, you know, making films and stuff, you know, you just never really think about it until you actually need it. And you're like, oh shit, what am I gonna do? You know, I really have it.

Peter Paul Shaker 56:33
Oh yeah, yeah. It's very, it's very, very, very true statement. So, like, that's definitely something like, you know, in hindsight, we would have put more resources towards and like, you know, but I think overall, it turned out fine, but it couldn't it was it could have been easier. It could have been easier.

Tony Shaker 56:47
Yeah, it could have been an easier process, yeah, yeah,

Dave Bullis 56:50
And see, and that's the thing, you know, you got to take, what is it? Two steps forward, one step back. And, I mean, now when you guys go, go to your next project, you know, sound, you know, you remember that, that you know the sound was important, you know. And plan for that ahead of time, you know. And honestly, we've all been there, you know,

Peter Paul Shaker 57:05
Yeah. And also coordinating special effects in the pre production process, because, like, some of the VFX guy, like, we went out, you know, and found a young kid from like Brooklyn who did a lot of our VFX and color grading for us, and he gave us and he gave us a few suggestions, and, like, he had questions for the DP that, like, it would have been good for them to have a conversation before we did the lighting arrangement, so that they could get the same page about what we were trying to do to get certain right the right type of color we got to the color we wanted. But there could have been fewer steps if they were coordinated before we shot stuff, really?

Tony Shaker 57:44
Yeah, I think, I think for us, we looked at it as a three phase thing, where it's pre production, production, post production, when it is true that you have those three steps, but really they're so intermingled in ways that you don't even think about in the beginning, that that you know, at least for me, I'd say I wish that we had known some of the post production things in the pre production spot, just so that we could have everyone on the same page. Yeah, make sure that we could, you know, keep things as tight as possible.

Peter Paul Shaker 58:12
Yeah. So like, I think the lesson learned is, anyone who's going to touch it in post production should be involved in the pre production process, absolutely, so they know what they're getting into, and so the person who's handling the actual production knows what to be giving them, knows what they're expecting. Yeah,

Dave Bullis 58:31
Yeah, right, exactly. And that goes in with like, deliverables too, and stuff like that. You know, where it's, you know, coordinating everything, you know, coordinating the effects and stuff like that. I was on a shoot one time, and the cinematographer and the set designer were not on the same page. And the cinematographer walks into the set and goes, What the fuck is this? He goes, this is completely wrong. He goes, he goes, I told him not to paint the walls this color. He goes, because I mean, and they and him and everyone, like all the people who were like the director of the director of the cinematic for the producers, they all went outside, and it's like, I guess they had to have this big meeting, because I guess the shit had hit the well, I know this should have hit the fan. And it was like, you know this, this is because and the cinematographer, I remember passing him, he goes, see, this is what happens. He goes, when the set designer doesn't fucking listen. And he's like, this is what happens. And they ended up having to, just to, just to, like, really, what's looking for here? Just think on the fly, I guess it just they had to, sort of Jerry something else completely, yeah, but, but you know stuff like that, you know. And, but you know, you know. I but see it again, two steps forward, one steps back, you know. And that's why you guys gonna take it into your, into your next project. But I wanted to ask, you know, as we already talked about, how you edited it and how you, you know, put it, put this all together. You know, here's the big key now, is distribution. So what do you what do you guys plans? Where can people see Killer Christmas at?

Peter Paul Shaker 59:50
So we used an aggregator called juice. It's like one of the recommended aggregators by iTunes. And what they do is they, they're kind of. Like the new way to do do it yourself, indie distribution, you pay an a la carte fee.

It's about 13, 1400 bucks for the first platform you submit to, and then maybe about 250, 300 for each subsequent platform. So as long as your movie is up to spec in terms of all of the technical stuff, you submit it to juice, and then they go through a whole QC process to make sure that it's going to be something that is going to be approved by the platforms. And these platforms don't accept accept direct submissions from, you know, us, lay people. They basically only accept it from big time studios and, like, you know, reputable production houses as well as these aggregators. So like, it was a back and forth process to make sure, you know, we had to do a couple of corrections to get it up to spec for them, like in their QC process. But then after that, it was like, you know, we paid a few 1000 bucks, and we will be on cable video on demand, so about 75 million cable boxes in the US. And then we'll be on iTunes, we'll be on Google Play, will be on Amazon direct, will be on Microsoft Network, and will be on Sony PlayStation Network. And it comes out November 22 so the Wednesday of Thanksgiving, yeah, something to watch with the family? Yeah, man, it's a family tree. Bro, exactly. Kids will get something, adults will get something, and everyone in between, yeah,

Dave Bullis 1:01:43
And everyone. I'm gonna link to that in the show notes, by the way, wherever you can check out Killer Christmas. And I also, I'm gonna check out juice, by the way, that's interesting. I'm gonna link to that in the show notes as well, because I, I have Jason Brubaker on here a lot, and he works for distributor. We always talk about different aggregators and stuff like that. Haven't heard of juice yet, but I'm gonna check it out. But like,

Peter Paul Shaker 1:02:02
We'd searched, we'd, like, researched a few of them, and like, we'd had conversations with their customer service people, and like, they were the ones we felt most like comfortable with. Like, they're very hands on. They're based out of Canada. They work with ubiquity, and ubiquities is essentially the clearing house for cable on demand. So a lot of the aggregators have to go through ubiquity anyway to get on cable boxes. But the ubiquity basically picked one of the aggregators last year and purchased them. So if ubiquity bought juice, so we went with juice, because they are basically the the like the child company of the of the cable clearing house. So, like, plus every interaction we've had with them, I mean, they're really good, yeah, very professional, you know, they they're great at, like,

Tony Shaker 1:02:50
Great responsive, yes. I mean, they're constantly getting, you know, questions back and forth. And even their website. I mean, they've got something that we really liked was they've got so much information on their website that is open for anyone to pick up and look at. Yeah? So if you're someone who's considering, or if you're someone who's going through the process and trying to get more clarity on things, it's very out in the open, and, you know, there's no restriction of information, yeah,

Peter Paul Shaker 1:03:15
Yeah, their FAQs are really very thorough, yeah, yeah.

Dave Bullis 1:03:18
And I think, also, too, I think that's where we're going. Where is, is, it's more of open and honest data, I think, especially for guys in our industry, you know, I think for stuff like this, I think, you know, the there be places like that where it is an open, open and honest where, you know, it used to be so closed, you know, just be everyone had, would have just everything was behind closed doors. And I don't think that everything's gonna be out in the open, but it's gonna be a lot more about. Lot more about, you know, hey, look, you know, this is how the process is gonna work with us. And we're not just gonna buy your movie and then throw it into, you know, a pile, or put it one of those DVD packs or whatever, you know, what I mean, like, or what have you.

Peter Paul Shaker 1:03:54
And we've got a great dashboard, like, they show us, like, the different platforms, the exact revenue streams, a number of sales. So, like, it's very like, it's really, like, a lot of info. And like, that's great, because you get to really track what you're doing. And like, the same thing goes, like, we're doing a whole marketing effort with YouTube. We're basically, like, putting our trailer before videos, like, so you have to wait a certain amount of time to skip it, and then we're doing like, display ads on like, Google with just a poster where it like pops up in the sidebar, or like as a recommended whatever. And then we're gonna, we're do, we're like, boosting those two things we're doing now. And those two things basically give you, like, all kinds of metrics and information. Like, the same thing like you could see, like you're, you know, everything from cost your purview to like the average time people watch to like, all these different measurable stuff. And then, like, we're as of the 22nd day we launch, we're also going to be doing like, you know, Facebook boosting and like Instagram ads, like, where the video art, like, we'll have a couple of GIFs from the like, from the film, like, nice little scare moments that'll be popping up at people's video feed. So, like, all. This stuff is, like, you know, accessible through very user friendly, like dashboards where, you know, as long as you're putting in the right kind of media, and you can, you know, navigate around a little bit, like you could run your own ad campaign, and then on the distribution platform with juice, you could, you know, run your whole distribution campaign, and this is all do it yourself at this point. Like, you know, it's really, like, Yeah, I mean, it's crazy. Like, it really is crazy. You can start your own production company and and make your own film, and all of these tools are accessible to you,

Tony Shaker 1:05:31
Yeah! And that's something that, you know, we were approached by a number of sales agents about killer Christmas. And, you know, something that we that we noticed and that we were hesitant with was, you know, we're asking about the availability of a lot of these metrics and a lot of these numbers. Like, you know, once it goes in house, you know, you won't really see the specifics, you know, and that's us. Was like, that's the most important piece of information. You want to know who's looking at it. You want to know how much people are watching it. You want to know all this data so that way you could target audiences better and also make sure that you get your bottom line paycheck, sure.

Peter Paul Shaker 1:06:03
Plus they also take 25% off the top. Plus they take up to, like 25 to 40k in marketing expenses and other, you know, going to road shows and going to, like, the the the film, marketplaces and things like that. And you know, it just becomes something where, once you read, like, you dig in, you pick their brains, you figure out what they're trying to do. And then you look around the web and you're like, well, we can do every single one of these things ourselves without, you know, basically getting gutted by some shark. So, like, you know, and having total control over it too,

Dave Bullis 1:06:35
Yeah. And that's sort of where it comes in is, you know, somebody does buy the buy the movie. And this is for anybody out there, someone does buy your movie, you know, how, you know, what is the marketing for? You know, how are they gonna get the word out? How they gonna get people to not only just, not even just buy it, but just go to the landing page, you know? And that's sort of, you know, I was talking about this to a couple other filmmakers last week, not even on the podcast, and they were saying, you know, we just don't want to sell our movie to somebody, and then it just, they just put it up on, you know, some site, and then it's like, nobody says a word about it. And it's like, you know what I mean, it's like, almost like a so it's almost like a low risk for them, but it's a high risk for you, because you're like, well, well, now I'm my own marketing team, and, hell, I could have just did what you just did. So why did I even cut you in in the first place?

Peter Paul Shaker 1:07:18
That's exactly what that's, that's, what went through our minds. Oh, yeah. So we've really just done like we do all our own marketing, or all our own PR, we reach out, you know, every day we reach out to new people. You know, we're, we're tweeting at people, or we're like, you know, like emailing people, or looking up, like, you know, going through IMDb Pro and finding another dozen, you know, you know, critics or like, whatever. So like, you know, if you're constantly doing your own work, no one's gonna work harder for you than you are. Like, that's just kind of the truth, you know. And these people are happy to just buy 1000 of these films because one of them will actually just hit organically, but everyone else kind of loses out. And, like, they get paid no matter what, on the aggregate. So like, you know, as an individual filmmaker like no one, no one cares about you more than you do, so you got to do it yourself.

Dave Bullis 1:08:06
Yes, very, very true, guys. And I think that's an excellent way to sort of put a period into this whole conversation. Guys, where do people find you out online,

Peter Paul Shaker 1:08:16
killerchristmas.com and shakerproductions.com we also have a Killer Christmas Facebook page and a shaker productions YouTube channel as well as an Instagram, oh yeah, as a shaker productions Instagram as well. So we're on all the socials and whatnot

Dave Bullis 1:08:35
Cool, and I will link to that in the show notes. Everybody, it's at davebullis.com Twitter. It's at dave_ bullis. And by the way, I'm going to follow you guys, or I'm sorry, I'm going to subscribe to you guys on YouTube. I'm getting more more and more into YouTube, so I'm going to subscribe to you guys, probably tonight. And because I think YouTube is, really, is is. I mean, honestly, that's like the social media for for guys like us, you know, if you're in the film industry, you have to be on like, something like YouTube, YouTube or Vimeo, or something, you know, yeah, yeah. So it just behooves, you know, so, you know. And I want to say Pete and Tony, thanks you so much for coming on the show, guys. And, you know, yeah,

Peter Paul Shaker 1:09:12
You're like the man. We really appreciate your time.

Dave Bullis 1:09:15
Oh, thank you. I try, guys, I try, but no, it's great. And I'm always glad to talk to filmmakers who actually out there doing stuff. And again, you live probably what, you know, four hours for me, maybe less,

Peter Paul Shaker 1:09:29
Not even we could probably make doing, like, under three, maybe two, two and a half hours, depending on, like, you know, if it's the middle of the night, there's no traffic. So yeah, we'll get up for a drink, bro.

Dave Bullis 1:09:38
Yeah, yeah. Seriously, let's meet up for a drink. I got other friends too. I gotta, I have in Jersey and New York. I gotta go meet, get me up some with someday. Because, you know, you meet all these people, and I'm like, Man, I got all these, all these people I gotta go talk to. And it's like, or go meet. And eventually, because you talk to them or something, you know what? I mean, it's just, you know, cool, awesome guys. And you know, we'll grab a drink sometime. And.You know, we'll go to a pizza place in Jersey, yeah?

Peter Paul Shaker 1:10:13
He knows, man,

Tony Shaker 1:10:17
Some cheese steaks,

Dave Bullis 1:10:19
Yeah, dude, yeah. Well, I'll take you to the real places,

Tony Shaker 1:10:22
The real Oh, yeah, and gyms and people in place like that. You got more of those?

Dave Bullis 1:10:27
Yeah, yeah. You gotta go to like Steve's, Steve's Prince of steaks. You gotta go to like John's rose pork. Oh, I've never heard of these. Yeah, these are where the real Philadelphians go, man.

Peter Paul Shaker 1:10:39
Oh, my God, alright, we'll do that. We will do that, though,

Dave Bullis 1:10:42
Guys, I get I wish you the best, and have a great Thanksgiving, by the way, as we're talking about Thanksgiving, man, oh, thank you guys. So everyone listening to this, have a great Thanksgiving as well. And check out Killer Christmas. By the way, it's fun for the whole family. Yo, check it out. Seriously, I could the kids will love it. So everyone, I linked again, I'm gonna link to everything in the show notes. And in the show notes and have a great night, guys.

Peter Paul Shaker 1:11:04
Thank you too.