IFH 581: Screenwriting & Showrunning Friends and Grace & Frankie with Marta Kauffman

Marta Kauffman is an Emmy- and Golden Globe-winning television writer, producer and showrunner behind the hit series Friends and Grace & Frankie. After graduating from Brandeis University, Kauffman got her big break alongside David Crane when their pilots Dream On (1990) and The Powers That Be (1992) were greenlit. The pair then launched Bright/Kauffman/Crane Productions with Kevin Bright and became the trio that created the iconic sitcom Friends.

Marta’s expansive and successful career includes creator, director, EP and showrunner credits on a number of television series, films, digital series and projects. In 2015, Kauffman started her production company, Okay Goodnight, with industry veteran Robbie Tollin and Hannah KS Canter.

Their first series, Grace & Frankie, starring Jane Fonda, Lily Tomlin, Martin Sheen, and Sam Waterston premiered on Netflix in 2015 and is Netflix’s longest-running original ever. The series has received multiple Emmy and SAG nominations and is premiering the final episodes of its seventh and last season later this year. In 2018, the company produced the documentary Seeing Allred, which premiered at the 2018 Sundance Film Festival and is currently available on Netflix.

Kauffman has received a number of honors and awards including the Paddy Chayefsky Laurel Award for lifetime achievement in television writing from the Writers Guild of America, the 2016 Outstanding Television Writer award at the 23rd annual Austin Film Festival & Screenwriters Conference, The Kieser Award at the 44th Annual Humanitas Awards, and Variety’s TV Producers Impact Report for consecutive years in 2019 and 2020. Okay Goodnight and Kauffman currently have numerous projects in various stages of development at multiple networks.

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
I'd like to welcome to the show, Marta Kauffman. How you doin' Marta?

Marta Kauffman 0:14
I'm good. Thanks. Thanks for having me.

Alex Ferrari 0:17
Oh, my God, thank you so much for coming on the show. You know, I'm slightly geeking out because obviously I am of the generation of when Friends came about. So I was in I was there, I think I was their age when Friends was. So I'm about I'm a little, like, only few years younger than the cast. So I was really feeling it. And I always wondered, how can someone afford that apartment in New York, but we could get to that later. But, um, and I wanted to kind of go down the road of how you started, how did you get started in the business?

Marta Kauffman 0:53
Um, honestly, I started as an actor, and discovered when when there was nothing in college for undergraduates to act in David Crane, and I said, Well, let's write something that that we can act in. And very quickly realized that the writing was a lot more fun than the academic. Yes. And we wrote a musical. The following year, we wrote another musical that ended up off Broadway. And when that show happened, our theater agent at the time brought a woman named Nancy Josephson who said, Why aren't you two doing television? And we went, Oh. And she is to this day, still my television agent.

Alex Ferrari 1:45
That's amazing. That's amazing. So you, so Was there something that started you on the path of trying to even be in this ridiculous business that we call show business? What was the thing that kind of lit your fire?

Marta Kauffman 1:58
You know, I've always loved telling stories. I didn't growing up know exactly what that meant. But and it wasn't until I started studying theatre and writing myself that I sort of said, I There are stories I want to tell, there are things I want to say and things I want to do. And you know, my mother was a dancer. My father could play any instrument you put in front of them. So I grew up in a very creative household. So it as much as they didn't want me to go into the business. She told people for a long time that I was going to grow up and teach mentally handicapped people, and we told them forever, until I finally had to move to LA and said, You know, I'm really doing this and she was furious. But once we while we were still living in New York, we were going back and forth between LA and New York, and I had a baby at that time. David Crane was like the other parent. We do one rule, I couldn't nurse during a pitch. That was a decent rule. And we were writing stuff and nothing was happening, and nothing was happening. And then we got a meeting about dream on interest. And, you know, they were looking for writers to do something with these millions of, you know, tapes that they had of old TV shows, and they were scraping the bottom of the barrel talking to to, you know, musical theater writers. But we were able to come up with something and get it made.

Alex Ferrari 3:50
Right. Like it, it seemed like from your from your proof from your, your filmography that, I mean, it seemed pretty quickly you got something, you know, you got a pilot produced, like, which was Dream on. And, you know, and it seemed very, it seemed quick, but I always wanted to know, like, how did you get Dream on? Like, how, because there's not a lot of time between when you first got your first writing gig to being a showrunner like you jumped pretty quickly. And that generally doesn't happen in the business.

Marta Kauffman 4:25
You know, again, I have to thank Nancy Josephson for this, um, when when dreamin right before Drumond happened. We met with the agents, and she was there and they said, What do you want to do? And we said, we want to write our own show. And they said, no, no, you can't do that. Was miss you. You've got to work on somebody else's show. And my feeling was, I had a baby. If I'm going to be spending time away from my baby, I'm going to have it be my thing. And then dream on happened. We wrote a pilot, we shot the pilot. And we were trusted to run the show. But I, it's a miracle. I don't know who convinced who,

Alex Ferrari 5:22
Like, how does that happen? Like in? I mean, I don't want this everyone listening, you have to understand that this is not the normal route of things. You don't know young writers are not given shows to run. And that was an HBO show at the time, right? I think it might have had a little something to do with. Yeah, might have had some to do with H because it was HBO and HBO was in the wild, wild west at that time period. Is that a fair statement?

Marta Kauffman 5:44
Yes, it really was. We were one of their first shows. And I think they were more willing to take big swings, then then other places might have been a network would never have let us do this.

Alex Ferrari 5:57
No way. That's what Yes, that makes that makes a lot more sense. Now, you

Marta Kauffman 6:02
Also simultaneously, we got a job. And this is what brought us out to LA what we've just here working for Norman Lear's company developing TV. So that was also happening at the same time. Um, it was we did a suspend and extend thing, which means we suspended the contract for a little while. So we could do dream on an extended at that length of time. And then we had to do both a show for them. While we were doing Dream on. And David, nice to say we used to pass the baton on the freeway as we pass each other going to the other room.

Alex Ferrari 6:44
That's amazing. Now, your first writing gig was everything's relative. And that was the first as your first official writing gig as a writer in a room

Marta Kauffman 6:53
As a TV writer. Yeah. Well, I would say my first writing gig was we wrote questions for a game show.

Alex Ferrari 7:00
Okay. That's amazing.

Marta Kauffman 7:04
But we'll put that to the side. Fair enough. Yes, that was the first that was the first TV experience we have. So then as what was terrible,

Alex Ferrari 7:15
Which okay, so I wanted to get into that, was there a major lesson you picked up from being on that show as a young writer that you brought into the rest of your career?

Marta Kauffman 7:26
Um, well, one of the things we learned was, we want to do our own show, right? We were not in the room for the rewrite. And the rewrite was massive. And, you know, we didn't have the experience to understand exactly how this works, and that they're going to take it and put it in their own vernacular, you know, the way that their characters speak, which, you know, we watched the TV show was barely on the air for a minute before we did this. And it was a, an experience where there was very little communication, very little inclusion. So yeah, that was our first experience. Thanks for bringing it up.

Alex Ferrari 8:14
Anytime I'm trying to bring up the worst and the best of your past. Learning, I'm trying to I'm trying to pick up some learning tips along the way, some lessons that we could give to everybody. Now, what is with you and you and David, what is your writing process? Like? How do you start? You know, a show idea or have any kind of storytelling? What how do you start like literally your process? Do you wake up in the morning, every day? Go to the to the desk at eight o'clock, I'm there. How's it work?

Marta Kauffman 8:42
So that's a very interesting question. And my process has changed. Since you could no no longer writing together, I had to learn a whole new process, I used to say that I wrote out loud, because David was always at the keyboard. Got it, he won't be at the keyboard. And I had to learn that I wasn't going to be able to speak things out loud. So I started acting in my head. And what I discovered about the way I write is that I write in waves. I'll sit down, study a scene, do my vomit draft is what I call the first draft. Do that scene. And then I have to walk away for a little bit until the next wave comes and I know what the next scene is about. And I sort of let the first scene settle. And then let the second scene start to bubble up. And as soon as things start to turn, in my head, I jump back in and ride the next wave. Now sometimes it's more than one scene. But generally it's it's it's about riding waves as opposed to I'm picking these hours and these hours and these I leave my day open.

Alex Ferrari 9:57
So it just anytime that during the day you're Just like okay, Muse, I am here. Yep. Anytime you want to show up, it could be at eight in the morning, eight at night midnight whenever.

Marta Kauffman 10:08
Well, it's a little more disciplined than that, in that I, if I know today is a writing day? Sure, I'll sit down. And the reason I call it the vomit draft is I know that to get started, I just have to get words on paper,

Alex Ferrari 10:21

Marta Kauffman 10:23
However terrible they are. The words have to go on the paper. And once that starts, once you get past the blank page, then the waves start to come start coming. And it's it's not really I mean, yes, I do like to call my museum, but it's not a matter of I'm in the shower, for idea happens. You know, and I jump out and go sit right.

Alex Ferrari 10:50
I gotcha. I gotcha. Well, I always love asking this question to creators, you know, even when I write, there's that moment that, you know,

Marta Kauffman 10:59
Excuse me one second, I realized I didn't really answer your question.

Alex Ferrari 11:02
Okay. So go ahead. Oh, yeah. to process the process.

Marta Kauffman 11:05
Yeah, there's a little more about the process in terms of creating a new show, okay. There are a couple things. Sometimes there's IP, a book, an article or something. And those can be incredibly inspiring. We have a couple projects based on books, and they're very exciting. And and I hate to say this, but part of why they're so exciting is you don't have to start from scratch. You have a basic idea of characters, and perhaps the shape of a story. And yes, it has to change. And it's I'm not saying it's easy. But it's a different process than when you're doing a show from scratch. And you know, here's the logline ID and then you have to discover who each one of these characters is. And you have to discover what the story is. And it is a painstaking process. It's a painstaking process. But it's one that I mean, generally. It's one that I don't write down immediately. Okay, I percolate on it for a while.

Alex Ferrari 12:32
You let it simmer? You let it Yeah, you let it kind of, you know, satay in your head, if you will?

Marta Kauffman 12:37
Yes, exactly. Exactly. And I find that sometimes that the walking away, is when my brain is most productive.

Alex Ferrari 12:46
Agreed, agreed, 100%, it's sometimes you just gotta go for a walk, go take a shower, go into Drive, whatever that thing is for you. I always found it. And this was a question I was gonna ask you, with, with creators, especially writers, I've always found the moment that you're able to tap into the flow, huge that the wave, which is the first time I've ever heard it referred to as a wave that you kind of ride a wave of inspiration, or that the thing is coming through you. I always found it that we're almost conduits from something else. I don't know where it comes from whatever you want to call it. But writers generally, and I think most writers I've spoken to have agreed with me on this is that there's that moment in time where you, you're just writing and then you stop and you read it. Like who wrote that? Right? Do you find Do you find that happening to you? Like you kind of like in that flow? It's not all the time. Sometimes it's much harder than that normally. But you get those moments.

Marta Kauffman 13:40
I'm the pilot of friends was one of those moments.

Alex Ferrari 13:43
I imagine it is. Yeah.

Marta Kauffman 13:45
That I mean, and mainly because we always say it wrote itself. Right? We didn't do anything. We just put the words on the paper it just wrote itself.

Alex Ferrari 13:56
It's just something some from some other place it just kind of like you guys were chosen, like you two are going to do it and it just all of us. And I've heard that from from from creators who've created these amazing properties and television shows and movies that when it's when it's so well received around the world, it's generally like something that just kind of like, like Rocky and Stallone like when he wrote Rocky, he's like I wrote in three days. The rough, the first draft, right? It was just there. It just it was it's like who wrote that? And that's

Marta Kauffman 14:28
Like, it's a little bit like one of my favorite pieces of sculpture is I think it's called the slave. Okay. Um, and it's a big square piece of marble. And coming out of the marble is a figure. The bottom half of this figure is in that big block of marble Sure. It exists in there. You just have to click All right, rest of that sculpture is in there. So it you know, it sort of makes me wonder if what we're doing is knocking away removing all the stuff that gets in the way from the piece of work that you're trying to create.

Alex Ferrari 15:21
That's yeah, that's what it is. Is it? Is it the VINCI or Michelangelo? Who said that? I think one of the Michelangelo? Yeah. He said, That is like I just there was, I just took the David all the pieces that weren't the David. Which sounds so simple. It doesn't, yeah, just just write, it should be fine.

Marta Kauffman 15:41
No, and the other thing, I think that gets in the way for a lot of writers and we've spoken to writers about this, but I think many of us feel like fakes.

Alex Ferrari 15:54
Oh, imposter syndromes. Absolutely. Imposter syndrome. Oh, big time.

Marta Kauffman 15:58
It's a big thing. It's a big thing, which is what makes it so hard to face the blank page. So hard to look at your vomit draft. And I always said, I'm a Rewriter.

Alex Ferrari 16:15
But the match. But let me ask you a question to why. Why do you believe that is? Because you're absolutely right. By the way, me speaking to, I mean, Oscar winners and Emmy winners and everybody. They all you know, they all seem to have that even after they've won Oscars after they've won Emmys. They're super successful. And yet, every time they get onto the page, there's like, I feel like someone I've heard this, like, I feel someone's gonna come into the door and go, What are you doing security? Get him or her out of here? Like it's but it's a weird thing is that thing is just inherent in writers weren't artists in general, because it's not only writers directors feel the same way? Actors feel the same way. Why do you think that is?

Marta Kauffman 16:56
I think if you identify yourself as a writer, then your failures are more painful than you think like I failed as writer as opposed to well, I'm not really writer. So that's why that didn't work. Right? I think that's a little piece of it. Sure. I, another piece of it, is that, as artists, we strive for perfection, which we never achieve. We just want to make it better and better and better. And we, I think, come face to face with our limitations on every script. I mean, I watched friends, mainly, what I see are the things I wish we changed.

Alex Ferrari 17:49
But that's an artist. That's always the way it is.

Marta Kauffman 17:52
Right. Right. I think that's part of it. And I think, I mean, in my case, I actually had a teacher write on a paper, once that I was the least in my AP English. I was the least perceptive student she'd ever had. And like, never be a writer.

Alex Ferrari 18:10
Those are the best stories ever. I love those stories. But that but that that kind of fed the fire a bit I'm I'm imagining?

Marta Kauffman 18:17
Well, what I realized is, I can't write an essay. Right? I can't write an essay. I can write dialogue. But I cannot write it. I couldn't write a novel for I just couldn't do it. I write you know, dialogue. That's what I do. I act it out in my head. I play all the characters and, and I it's, you know, in shorter sentences, you know, I don't have to be descriptive. I have to be clever in how I do exposition, and stuff like that. So I think that's, that's certainly another piece of it for me. I haven't yet met a writer who doesn't feel the imposter syndrome.

Alex Ferrari 19:14
I really haven't either. Yeah, it's just it's not again, it's not just the writers I think directors to to. I mean, I mean, maybe James Cameron not but but even in the quiet moments of James's Mo, you know, I'm sure there was a moment of like, No, I don't think so. I think I think he's good. But most, but most mortals, most mortals do feel that especially as artists are concerned. Is there anything you wish you would have been? You wish someone would have told you at the beginning of your career? And like Man, why didn't someone tell me this?

Marta Kauffman 19:56
There are a few things I wish someone had told me I wish someone had told me that there was going to be misogyny that I could do very little about.

Alex Ferrari 20:10
I can imagine.

Marta Kauffman 20:12
I wish someone had told me that. And and I faced it a lot. I'll tell you one story, we writing a movie. And I had a had to have a minor, benign tumor removed from my breast. And it was happening on the day that we were supposed to meet with the producer for whom we were writing this movie. And David sat down with this producer. And he said, I love the script. I wish it had more TNA. They said, By the way, where's Marta, and David Flint, she's having her tea operated on.

Alex Ferrari 20:54
I can imagine in the, you know, the 90s 80s and 90s, that, you know, there was no me to movement, there was no awareness, there was no real way there was nowhere for, for females and people of color to, there was no, there was nothing, you just had to deal with it and move forward.

Marta Kauffman 21:12
Didn't really have role models. I mean, mine was Rosemarie from the Van Dyke Show.

Alex Ferrari 21:17
Minds was Robert Rodriguez from El Mariachi is the first time I ever saw a Latino filmmaker. I mean, they had been before but Robert was the first guy I saw was like, Oh, my God, I can I can be a filmmaker, I can go out and do what I want to do it with, you know, I'm sure Spike Lee was for other people and it of a certain generation, you know, Melvin van Peebles, and the list goes on and on. But you didn't see a lot. Now. It's, I mean, so much more, there's so much more to be done. But there's so much more representation out there. There's so many more different stories from different perspectives, which are so important.

Marta Kauffman 21:56
I think there's finally an awareness that we need to do that, that all people need to tell their stories. Right. Right. Exactly. And that there's an audience for that.

Alex Ferrari 22:07
Oh, yes. Exactly. It because at the end of the day, it generally always, you know, I, I had a, I had when I came up in a video store, you know, in the 80s. In the 90s, I worked in a video store. And there was one moment where I, there was a, I had some had a racist situation happened with a customer. And they called up my Oh, my boss, and he was like, I can't believe this Latino kids telling me I'm late charges or something like this. And I was first time I'd ever really been, you know, in front of fronted with that. And he said, I'm going to tell you one lesson, he was a Jewish man. And he said, the only color that people care about is green. If you can make the money, it all goes out the window and a lot of ways. And I found that that's generally the way it works. In Hollywood specifically. Do you agree with that? Like they just like if you're making a lot of money for the company, or for the movie or for things? doors, the doors, but just I don't know, it's I don't know. I would just love to hear your opinion on that.

Marta Kauffman 23:12
Yes or no? Yes. And no, I mean, after, during friends, you know, David, and I would go to a meeting and there were certain men who would not look at me, in the meeting, walk straight to David. And I'd be sitting right there talking. They'd look at me when I talk, but then they would talk to David. Um,

Alex Ferrari 23:39
And you had the biggest show, you had the biggest show on television.

Marta Kauffman 23:43
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it. It's gotten better. I have seen a real change since I started in this business in the 80s. Short Course. It's, it's been massive. And I still think we have a very long way to go. But I feel like finally people are paying attention. And I won't get things like we were pitching a movie where there were two women at the center of the movie. And the executive said to us, if it isn't Sandra Bullock and Meryl Streep, you're not getting the movie made? Nobody wants to see a movie about two women unless it's those two.

Alex Ferrari 24:27
Even now, or

Marta Kauffman 24:28
This was maybe six or seven years ago?

Alex Ferrari 24:34
Still close enough. And that's, that's another thing I want people listening to understand. I mean, you've obviously had a lot of success in your career. It doesn't mean that you get to do whatever you want and that a lot of a lot of writers think that like oh, well you wrote friends and and Grace and Frankie you do what you basically all you do is make a phone call. You get something financed and you get something produced. I've talked to everybody I've talked to. I've talked to all these It's not the case, they all have to hustle, do it even even well into their 70s I've had people that like, yeah, I, I still lose jobs. I yeah, I still get rewritten.

Marta Kauffman 25:11
It's actually one of the pieces of advice I was going to say, young writers is you can never rest on your laurels ever, ever. Um, you know, because the next minute you're out there developing, and for whatever reason, just because you're an Oscar winner doesn't mean they're gonna buy the movie.

Alex Ferrari 25:32
Correct! Correct.

Marta Kauffman 25:34
I mean, we went through a year of Developer Summit this year, that was sheer hell, not the development part of it. But the part where, you know, the, just the pluses. Yes, that's what we want. And we write in the go, we don't want that anymore. The lion. We had quite a few of those kinds of experiences. We actually were writing something we pitched something about a pandemic. But it's not really about the pandemic. It's it. Anyway, it's based on a book. Sure. We pitched it right after the news from Wuhan came out. Oh, yeah, exactly. They bought it. We wrote it. And then we're like, yeah, yeah, we're not.

Alex Ferrari 26:27
There's nobody wants to watch a pandemic show. Nobody know.

Marta Kauffman 26:32
We're moving. That's another thing that happens is you get caught life life, the world where you have a great idea and you go pitch it and they go, Oh, we have an idea about brothers, even if they're completely different.

Alex Ferrari 26:45
Right! No, yeah, exactly. I'm assuming there were a lot of terrorist scripts were shelved after 911. Like,

Marta Kauffman 26:54
I That's true.

Alex Ferrari 26:55
I it's just it's, you know, it happens things happen in the world. And, and then also, sometimes the opposite happens. There's a script about something that all of a sudden you have Mandalorian. And like, Oh, we're looking for that. And it just happened to be the timing for it. So timing works.

Marta Kauffman 27:08
And there's also there's also a tendency to oh, that worked. Let's do more of that.

Alex Ferrari 27:18
Of course, that's Hollywood's bread and butter.

Marta Kauffman 27:22
Rather than let's find something new and fresh and exciting. Let's just do what's good. It's no, it's got to be Ted lasso.

Alex Ferrari 27:32
Oh, God. How many Ted lasses by the way, Ted last was absolutely phenomenal. I just finished binging it for the first time. Oh, it's wonderful. But now I'm sure how many Ted lasso rip offs are going to come up. I mean, I always I always go back to Pulp Fiction, how many Pulp Fiction rip offs were there, once Pulp Fiction came out, and there was like five or 10 movies that came out, they're all trying to be Pulp Fiction, because that's just the way Hollywood works. So I have to ask, so I have the question I've been wanting to ask you is how did you come up with friends? How did friends come to be? How did it get produced? How did someone say? Sure, six kids living in New York? I think you'll be okay. How, what's the story behind? I'm sure you've answered this question a couple times.

Marta Kauffman 28:15
Um, so basically, we had just finished doing Dream on, which was a show with a single lead, who had to be in every scene which was extremely difficult on him. Every scene he was in. So, David, and I said, the next thing we do is going to be an ensemble. Okay, we didn't want to do that. And we started developing some stuff. We did a couple of pilots that obviously didn't work out. And then we were doing this was our second year of development. And we started thinking about where we came from. We lived in New York, we were part of a group of six people who did everything together. In that case, four of them turned out to be gay, which was a shock honestly, at the time, who like really but we were extremely close. And then I was here in LA driving down the street and I saw a sign for insomnia cafe. And I thought, that's, that's where to go. You know, the place you go get coffee is the place to go talk and to be together and to you know, it just felt like besides the apartments, which you always see this is, this is the meeting place. This is the gathering place. We actually sold it to two places, ended up at NBC, obviously. And there was a period of time right after we did the pilot, where they said, you know, we're worried about doing a show about six young people, that's not going to get the audience except for young people. Can you bring in an older character? Maybe the guy who owns the coffee shop, the coffee house,

Alex Ferrari 30:35
Your Schneider?

Marta Kauffman 30:36
Yeah. We used to call him a cop. And we said, No, you don't need that. They are everything for each other. They are their community. They don't need to go to some old guy for advice, or women. They don't need to go to someone for advice, because they have each other. And they let us do it.

Alex Ferrari 31:09
In how so what point, you know, in the casting process that you go, Oh, we have something special here was it after the first pilot. I mean, that because that magic that that cast has, and I'm not I'm not saying anything revolutionary here. But the magic of the friends cast is so palpable, you could just say, you can sense it. When these six people got together, it just worked in a way that is unexplainable. Like you couldn't write your letter, write that as a story. It's, it's,

Marta Kauffman 31:41
You know, it was, it was not easy to cast with 140,000 people. I mean, it was it was not an issue. But at our first rehearsal, the first time all six of them are on stage together. I got to chill up my spine. And sort of when Holy shit,

Alex Ferrari 32:09
Really that early. You felt it

Marta Kauffman 32:11
It was the first time they were all on stage together.

Alex Ferrari 32:14
So you guys didn't do chemistry reads or anything like that. You just You just cast them individually, and then threw them together and what happened happened, essentially,

Marta Kauffman 32:24
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Alchemy happened. That's gold. Yeah, little gold. And this is one of those cases the stars were aligned. Things would have been different. The stars were aligned.

Alex Ferrari 32:38
Yeah. Wasn't there like wasn't is it Jennifer that was on another show? Or was on another show? Yeah. And she had to get she had to get out. And I think I think I think it was in the reunion. I just saw that. She said, Yeah, yeah, go to that show. He'll get canceled after a year. Something like,

Marta Kauffman 32:55
That shows not gonna make you a star.

Alex Ferrari 32:57
That's the quote. That's the quote. Yeah, that's the story. That's like gonna make your star.

Marta Kauffman 33:00

Alex Ferrari 33:02
And, and that was the thing too, with that show with the characters that were also beautifully balanced. You know, you had the flighty one, you add the you know, the series, you know, the not as bright one, the two bright, like, you balanced the characters, I mean, just a balance that you and David were able to put together of the characters just on a character development standpoint. How did you develop each of those characters? Or did this cast bring in some flavors that you later added and developed more with him? Or did were they pretty fleshed out originally on paper?

Marta Kauffman 33:36
The answer is a little bit of both. Look, a character you write is one thing in your head. And then when an actor breathes life into it, they bring something to it. And it elevates it, especially with this past, they elevated everything. One example is we didn't originally write Joey as stupid. But he played it so well. That it just became part of who he was. And that was not in our initial description of him.

Alex Ferrari 34:13
So he wasn't originally the dim one. Correct! Yeah, but he was the actor. He was an actor.

Marta Kauffman 34:19
He was an actor.

Alex Ferrari 34:20
So brilliant. Dr. Jake Romano. I mean, oh, God did all those lines. I mean, there's so many. I mean, the list of quotable lines from that show. Were any of them ad libbed? Or were they all broken in a room with with the writers do they you can remember like, Yo, how you doing and all these kind of things like that.

Marta Kauffman 34:44
Well, we may have written how you doing but but the way he did it, right is what made it incredibly special. How you doing as a line is like whatever.

Alex Ferrari 34:55
How many people have said I mean, we say that, uh, how you doing? Yeah, yeah, but it's performing made it

Marta Kauffman 35:01
His performance made it.

Alex Ferrari 35:02
Yeah. And anytime you refer to that you never hear someone guide that line how you doing as how you do it like everyone does. Everyone does that. Right? And, and to find six characters, six actors who melded so beautifully together and stayed best friends really to this day. such good friends is almost unheard of in a series environment for 10 years without somebody wanting to kill somebody look as look like his family, we all get families or families we all have, you know, fights and things like that. But generally speaking, they all stayed together for the entire show. Ah, it's remarkable it is it is I don't remember another series that had this kind of ensemble. And the other thing that I found so fascinating about the show, is there really wasn't a breakout star. And I don't mean that in a bad way, because they all were breakout stars. And that's unheard of, you know, it's your experience as well.

Marta Kauffman 36:03
Yeah, in my experience as well. And you know, it was also when we cast it, we didn't want to cast a star, right? We didn't want someone who was going to pull all the attention towards themselves. You know, by an audience, we wanted six people who worked as a unit, who made the characters come to life. And who could, you know, hopefully meld? And you just won't know, you don't know until you do it. But but you know, it worked out.

Alex Ferrari 36:41
Yeah. Wow. And Courtney was the only to my knowledge was the only kind of known person at that time, because she had been, she had been, you know, into movies, and obviously the perspex thing, music video, and she'd been around for a little bit at that point, but she wasn't a star per se. She was a known actress. Right? What is it? Like? Can you discuss the process of breaking an episode in the friends writers room? Like how do you do from season one to like season eight? Like, what are the main differences from breaking that first season, as opposed to breaking the eighth or ninth or 10th season?

Marta Kauffman 37:19
Well, the biggest difference is in the first season, you're making the arcs, you're creating the relationships between people. By the time you get to the eighth season a you really know who they are, and be there are things in the works. So what starts to happen is, the show begins to tell you what the stories are. Interesting, you know that the show tells you which direction to go in, for example, our idea with Monica and Chandler was they have a one night stand, and then it gets really, really awkward. But the audience reaction when we shot it was so huge had to go. Wait a minute. What are they telling us? Yeah, and we had just switched courses. But we had to, you know, you have to be incredibly flexible along the way. That's number one. In terms of breaking a story. You know, it's a bunch of funny people sitting in the room going, either. You know, what might be funny. And then it's spitballing and spitballing and spitballing. And sometimes it's I gotta tell you what happened last weekend.

Alex Ferrari 38:42
Right! And they bring

Marta Kauffman 38:45
As an example, the Taylor's story. Joey and the Taylor.

Alex Ferrari 38:53
Oh, god, that was amazing. I remember. Yeah.

Marta Kauffman 38:56
True story.

Alex Ferrari 38:57
That's a true story? He went he went a little too far. And he's like, up in the ball. And you guys will it has to be Joey has this up first.

Marta Kauffman 39:09
Ofcourse he does.

Alex Ferrari 39:12
Yeah, so Yeah, cuz I remember when, I mean, look, I've seen the show. I've probably watched it a ton of times over the years from the first viewing and when it hit Netflix, I want to hit HBO Max and I just, you know, watch it. Now my kids watched it. My kids are I think when they start watching it, they shouldn't be watching because it's inappropriate, because they were eight. But we'd fast forward they couldn't get a lot of the references. But they would now even to this day, they'll see Jennifer Aniston somewhere like oh, there's Rachel or there's Joey or there's Chandler and they that's that's how they refer to the actors because they just that's all they know. it's generational. Now. It's like one of those things that will be brought along to other to generate and that doesn't happen very often in television.

Marta Kauffman 39:56
You know, I have a My youngest daughter is two 23 now but when she was 16 and the show went to Netflix, a friend of hers said, Have you heard about that new show called friends? They thought it was a period piece.

Alex Ferrari 40:16
Yeah, they thought like this is a great new show. And remember when I hit Netflix the millennials were just like, this is fantastic this this period piece show. They're talking about CDs and stuff is amazing. The phones were this big and they used to go someplace and sit down. It's amazing. It's I heard about that couldn't stop laughing when I heard that. It's, it's remarkable. I have do you have a favorite episode? I know. That's hard to say without the hundreds of episodes. Is there something is there one that you just like, that's the one that really did it for me.

Marta Kauffman 40:50
No, it's a little bit like saying Do you have a favorite child? But yes, I do. The episode with the game and Oh, yes. embryos, the empty embryos. When the other part is Phoebe is getting her eggs fertilized Wright Brothers. Of course. That's the other piece of the story that's in there.

Alex Ferrari 41:25
But it was the game it was you mean the game when they lost the apartment? Why? Oh, it's it's that's an amazing episode one of many. But that

Marta Kauffman 41:33
I love that episode. So much. I love it so much.

Alex Ferrari 41:36
It's It's It's perfection. I want to ask you.

Marta Kauffman 41:40
I love to. Um, but but that to me is that's just my favorite.

Alex Ferrari 41:45
Now, is there something that you look for specifically in a potential writer for one of your rooms?

Marta Kauffman 41:51

Alex Ferrari 41:53
What is it?

Marta Kauffman 41:56
That I can be in a room with that person for 12 hours a day. No matter how good the writing is, if the person is obnoxious or too shy, or too shy, it's true, are afraid to talk. I won't hire that person. Look, you read a script, you respond to it or you don't? Correct. Part of what happens is as you start to put together a writer's room, you go alright, this person is really strong on story. This person's really good at jokes. So the script I read of that person may have been hilariously funny with not a great story, but that's okay. In a writers room.

Alex Ferrari 42:47
Right! You're taking the best pieces, you're taking the best pieces,

Marta Kauffman 42:51
Right! You want to balance you want to balance but I also feel that when people stay with the show, they start to you know, gain depth as writers of course, you know, and and learn and learn to strengthen their weaknesses and show their strengths.

Alex Ferrari 43:11
I mean, the best advice I've ever gotten for being in this business is don't be a dick. Best advice I've ever gotten, and it's and people are like, Oh, you've got to be super talented like, that helps. Don't be a dick. I promise you. You could be the best writer you could be the second coming of William Goldman. And if you are an ass and you can't work with them at any in any any field in our business grip. Gaffer DP director, writer. If you're hard to work with, in maybe you get in, I've always seen this too. Maybe your talent gets you in and then you become the dick. The moment you stumble, the second you stumble, you're gone. And yeah,

Marta Kauffman 44:01
We we and I feel that you're right. It's about the whole business. I mean, as a showrunner, one of my priorities is a happy set. Absolutely. A safe and happy set. And anybody who can't participate in that can't stay on the show. There's nobody else there's no yelling, period. End of story. You don't yell. Right. You know, there's an end there are ways it's being show runners sometimes it's like being a camp counselor. I'm not always but sometimes that is what it feels like when you're sort of supportive, supporting uplifting cheering on your cast and crew. To make them feel good about coming to work every day.

Alex Ferrari 44:58
It's not easy. A lot of people think I mean, look at Hollywood and being in the in the show business and, and television. It's fun. Don't get me wrong. And I know you know that as well. It's fun. But it's hard work you work 1218 hour days sometimes. Yeah, everyone's well compensated at all, that's all great and dandy, but at a certain point, it doesn't matter how many, how many dollars come into your checking account, it's still 18 hours, and you're still busting your your butt and you and I can't even imagine the prep the financial pressure of being a producer, on a show like that, you know, and because at a certain point was one of the most expensive shows on NBC, his roster at a certain point, you know, that we're making a lot of money with it as well. But that pressure as long as well as trying to be creative, as well as trying to keep a happy set. People don't think about things like that. But it is an immense amount of pressure. I can't even understand this point.

Marta Kauffman 45:45
It's true. It's a lot of pressure. It's enormous stress. But and I would say this to a young writer. We work too hard not to find joy in what we do. Great as a writer, if whatever you're working on doesn't speak to you. It's not going to come out well, and you're not going to be happy doing it. Absolutely. It's got to be something that you feel in your soul in your gut that this is something I have to write.

Alex Ferrari 46:24
Well, I have to tell you, my new obsession is Grayson, Frankie, and I, my wife and I watching it and I saw the trailer for it when it came out originally. And I jumped on. I think I jumped on Season One. I was an early adopter. And I was just sitting there going, how in God's green earth that this get made? I can't I'm so happy it did. On paper. It doesn't play well. But you know, you mean like, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, it's it's something that you never see you never see people of that age. On on a show. Obviously, you I think you had the same luck that you had with Dream on. HBO was the Wild Wild West, I think Netflix was very much the wild, wild west. To a certain extent. It's still it's the wild west over there. And you pitch them the show. I'm so happy that it exists in the world. And we're obsessed with it, by the way. So thank you for making it. How did you how did Grace and Frankie come to be? How did that idea come to be? Because some of the ideas in that show are just wonderful

Marta Kauffman 47:30
Umm, well, it was kind of a fluke how it started. I had lunch with a woman named Marcy Ross, who was head of the television department at Sky dance. We'd known each other previously. And she said the Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin want to do TV. I thought she meant together. I called my agent and I said, Is it true? The Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin want to do a show together? She said, I don't know. I'll call you back. And 20 minutes later, she calls me back. And she says they do now.

Alex Ferrari 48:17
Because you were asking.

Marta Kauffman 48:19
Yeah. Well, and also because they hadn't thought about doing it together, you know, and it was like, their friends course, they were very excited about it. And then, you know, we knew certain things we knew we wanted it to be about what it is to be that age, sex and sexuality and friendship. And we have a few pads to it. And I was sitting in the car with my daughter who is now a VP of my company because she's so freaking good. And she's the one who said what if they are women who don't like each other? Their husbands work together in a law firm and the men fall in love and want to get married.

Alex Ferrari 49:08
She's the one that came up with that. What? Oh my god. What? That's amazing. And and the ketamine Martin and Sam it just

Marta Kauffman 49:21
And then it tell you Alex, there were days when you could do table reads. Look across the table, right. Am Waterston Lily Tomlin and Jane Fonda and Martin Sheen, and I would go what is this real?

Alex Ferrari 49:46
It's remarkable and the topics Yeah, I mean, I've never seen a show like that because it's just something you never see characters of that age on on television as the main star, just just it doesn't happen. There's usually a side character But there's that then the topics they cover like you're talking sexuality, that's taboo. You don't talk about things like that. And then that they open up a vibrator company is just the most brilliant thing I've ever seen. And then the toilet thing and oh my god, it's just, every season keeps getting better.

Marta Kauffman 50:18
It was all for us about life starts at any age, right? Um, and also was a little bit about no one talks about Dr. vaginas but they're a real thing. Right about them and you know, on Netflix, you can talk about it.

Alex Ferrari 50:36
Right! This is not gonna happen on on on a network show. Guys, and fairly even not happened on any of the major networks. That's just not gonna happen. But, you know, by the way, did you I'm sure you've seen it at this point, the SNL wrap.

Marta Kauffman 50:52
Oh, my God. Oh my god. So it made us so happy. We watched it in the writers room, and we were just so happy.

Alex Ferrari 50:59
Oh, my God, Pete Davidson. It's just the it was the bet if anyone's not I'll put a link to it in the show notes. It is when I saw cuz I'm a fan of Saturday Night Live. So I was watching it. I'm like, are they? Are they doing a rap about Grayson, Frankie? This is the most amazing thing I've ever seen. And that Jane and Lily showed up at the end

Marta Kauffman 51:16
I know it made us so happy. Made it.

Alex Ferrari 51:21
Yeah, it's not crossed over. Because that's the thing. It's because on paper. It's not a great pitch. Don't get me wrong. It's not a great pitch on paper. Because you're like, well, it's only going to it's earned this is what the studios would say it's only a certain demographics gonna watch us only an older generation. Is that kind of the generation that we're going after. But their biggest fan base is young millennials. Yeah. You know, and Gen X like myself and like and everyone in between because good story writing is good story. Good acting is good acting.

Marta Kauffman 51:51
Well, it's no similar to friends when they said, you know, you can't do a show about six young people right out we've always said and this was the case with Grayson, Frankie too. If the stories are identifiable, if you can connect with the characters and the stories or something you can empathize with, then it'll work. No matter how old they are.

Alex Ferrari 52:17
You're absolutely right. And in the you have the record now of the longest running show on Netflix. There is no other show. No other show that's ever done it and that was the thing in the wrap to I love that. It was like in the log is flicks. Again if on on on paper, you would have told me Oh, yeah, this is also going to be the longest running show on Netflix as Netflix is infamous for more than two seasons, you're out. Right to three seasons, you're out if you can make it the four or five my god you're at this point your Orange is the New Black or House of Cards. You know, but this little show and it's that little bit this little show about you know, older people talk about Dr. vaginas and vibrate. That's now longest running show on Netflix. I mean, do you do you believe? I mean, I think you said it already is like it identifies and crosses the generations. And that's why I think people connect with it so much. And I mean, obviously it's the performances as well and Jane and Lillian Martin and Sam are just their magic as well. You've you've hit you've hit the lottery twice. I did it.

Marta Kauffman 53:27
I'm very grateful and very lucky.

Alex Ferrari 53:33
So I have to ask you I heard the rumors. is Dolly showing up? Dolly is it is official out there.

Marta Kauffman 53:42

Alex Ferrari 53:44
Because on Season Three I'm like when it's Dolly gonna show up as a cameo. Jesus, somebody bring Dolly back, please. When I see the three of them again, because I'm of a generation that remembers nine to five I love nine to five I watched it. Oh god so many times. It just was one of those movies at that time. That movie was a monster hit. Wow. She was it was in the zeitgeist at that moment in time. And the three of them are so magical together. I cannot wait to see that. I'm just dying to see what you guys do with them. And when our winners show up with the final episodes because I already binged the second you teased out a few episodes

Marta Kauffman 54:26
I don't have an official date yet. Okay. I don't have an official date yet hopefully in the next I think it's gonna be in the next few months.

Alex Ferrari 54:37
Next few months so yeah, as this we're recording this in January so hopefully in April sometime last what I'm hoping for Yeah, hopefully around April sometime it'll come out and how many episodes are left? Oh 12 total?

Marta Kauffman 54:52
12. Left. We were six. It was 16 episodes.

Alex Ferrari 54:57
Oh, that amazing you got extra because there's normally what was The normal episode run

Marta Kauffman 55:01

Alex Ferrari 55:02
So you got three. So good. I'm so excited. I cannot wait to watch Grayson Frankie again, see where this where this this start? I'm no seriously it's like there's very few shows that I get obsessed about Grayson Frankie. I'm also obsessed about Cobra Kai because it's a Cobrar Kai. So, but is is, I don't get obsessed by shows. Oh, Yellowstone too. I don't know if you've seen Yellowstone?

Marta Kauffman 55:28
I haven't yet but I am. I'm having my knee replaced. I'm saving it for that.

Alex Ferrari 55:31
Oh, it's off. Taylor is off. It's amazing, amazing writing. Now I'm gonna ask you a few questions I ask all my my guests. What advice would you give a screenwriter trying to break into the business today?

Marta Kauffman 55:44
Well, a couple things. One is, before you take scripts out there, get some friends together, read it out loud. So that you know that you have a product that is acceptable. And then I would say and I know, there's a lot of controversy about this. Um, I think agents can be extremely useful. I happen to have had a very good experience with mine. Other people have had good experiences. Some have not I understand that. But I think getting an agent is really important. And that's, by the way, one of the ways you do that is knowing other writers who can say hey, I met this person who has a great script and to do that. I really think getting into a writers room being a writer's assistant starters, a writers pa if you have to be a writer's assistant, we had every writer's assistant we had except for one ended up being a writer on the show.

Alex Ferrari 57:04
On what show Grace and Frankie are friends are both Chris and Frank.

Marta Kauffman 57:08
Quite a few on friends as well. But on Grayson, Frankie everyone, really? That's awesome. A woman who started as a writers pa ended up as a producer in our last season.

Alex Ferrari 57:20
How does and I have to ask how do you go from writers PA to producer in the scope of the series? Like why so people listening can understand what she did that.

Marta Kauffman 57:32
Well, in my room, I run a very democratic room. Okay. And if a writer's assistant has a joke to pitch, I want to hear it. Okay. Um, I, you know, I want to hear what they have to say for writers assistant has an idea. The room may not necessarily be the right place to do it, but then pull me aside and say, you know, I was thinking, what about this? And then we can go back in the room and I can say, Brooke just had this amazing idea.

Alex Ferrari 58:02
Because there is that there is a politics of the room that that that's not spoken about a lot is like how to, you know, especially there's a showrunner side of the of the room. But then there's the writer side and how to politically do it without stepping on toes and egos and things like that?

Marta Kauffman 58:17
Well, it depends on the showrunner. Exactly. It depends on the showrunner if you have a showrunner with an ego i It's tough, but you still would learn a lot in a writers room. And, and start to get to know writers. I mean, I a lot of my writers were working with the writers assistants reading their scripts, giving them advice.

Alex Ferrari 58:39
That's great mentoring them almost.

Marta Kauffman 58:42
Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 58:44
That's amazing. That's great. Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Marta Kauffman 58:52
Wow, that's a really interesting question. And I could go in a bunch of directions. I'm not going to go to the dark place. You know, bringing it full circle. I think I learned that I'm a writer.

Alex Ferrari 59:15
Took you a while to figure that out?

Marta Kauffman 59:17
Yeah. Took me a long time.

Alex Ferrari 59:20

Marta Kauffman 59:21

Alex Ferrari 59:23
I want everyone listening to hear this. That someone is as accomplished as you had a long time to figure out that they were really a writer that that imposter syndrome was was bad. Do you still deal with it? You have to not deal with it as much. Did you still deal with it? Really? But you but you figured out like that's just a voice in my head? I'm a writer.

Marta Kauffman 59:48
Yeah. Yeah, I figured out all right, I've done before I can do it again. And just get words on paper. Just get words on paper. And then rewrite, rewrite, rewrite.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:02
Are there three pilots that everyone should read in their specific genre that you would recommend?

Marta Kauffman 1:00:11
Um, you know, my so called Life was an amazing pilot was I remember it was an amazing pilot. I learned a lot from watching that pilot. So that's one squid game had a pretty good pilot.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:32
She says, What the hell with that Jesus Christ that show? What a thing like how well like I don't even I have to do it. I have to get that show runner on the show. I've just if he speaks English, I want to speak.

Marta Kauffman 1:00:46
You know, I It's funny that I mentioned those because I don't watch a lot of comedies. Okay. I mainly watch dramas because watching comedies work for me.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:58
Right! You're analyzing it, you're picking it apart. You're like, oh, that didn't hit right. That didn't hit right. Why did that get through?

Marta Kauffman 1:01:04
Or how did they get to that? How's that the story? Why is that doesn't make any sense or whatever.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:10
So you know, alright, so So mostly drama. So squid games, my so called life and what was the third one? You think?

Marta Kauffman 1:01:17
I'm debating between a couple.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:19
Okay, you could toss them both out.

Marta Kauffman 1:01:22
Sopranos had an amazing pilot. David was I mean, Jesus. Genius, genius. But I have to say I recently watched a show that I've long since forgotten about. The pilot for lost is really good

Alex Ferrari 1:01:42
The pilot was amazing. Amazing. Oh, remarkable. I mean, they kind of, you know, it took them. They went off. They went off the rails a little bit.

Marta Kauffman 1:01:53
They didn't know where they were going.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:54
They were just like, in a smoke monster shows up. Like, but that first season was yeah, some of the best television. Yeah, in a long time. I always throw in Breaking Bad because I think it's one of the Oh, that's a really good. I mean, you add another 15 minutes to it. It's the it's the best independent film of that year. It's true. It's remarkable. And just for fun three of your favorite films of all time. She's wiggling in her chair. She's wiggling in her chairs.

Marta Kauffman 1:02:29
I am, um, I loved there's so many. And some of these may be a little controversial. To Kill a Mockingbird. Fantastic film is an amazing film my favorite film made from a book, Now this one's a little strange. The original West Side Story. Okay. I grew up on I will sometimes just watch the dances.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:08
Oh, they're so beautiful. Amazing. Did you see the new one by the way? Did you see Steven? Yeah, I hear I haven't had a chance to see it yet. But I hear it's phenomenal.

Marta Kauffman 1:03:19
Watch it and then we can have a conversation.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:22
Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. Okay, and what was that and what's another one?

Marta Kauffman 1:03:30
Um, what was the first one he said the favorite

Alex Ferrari 1:03:34
To mark To Kill a Mockingbird?

Marta Kauffman 1:03:36
Oh, the favorite.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:39
Oh, the favorite. Oh. Which one?

Marta Kauffman 1:03:42
The one with Olivia Coleman.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:45
Oh, god. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Marta Kauffman 1:03:48
I loved that.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:50
I haven't seen that movie forever. But yeah, I remember that movie.

Marta Kauffman 1:03:54
Oh, it's just Oh, and I also love arrival. I do love science fiction. I watch a lot of science fiction. Really? Sad arrival. Great

Alex Ferrari 1:04:02
See that you never think that Marta coffins like a big sci fi fan?

Marta Kauffman 1:04:06
Huge a huge sci fi fan.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:08
Did you see that? Have you seen Mandalorian Do you watch any of that stuff? Or? No? I do. Did you enjoy it? Yeah, I enjoyed it. This fun? Yeah. It's popcorn. It's popcorn.

Marta Kauffman 1:04:17
Exactly. Exactly.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:19
It's popcorn. It's fun. It's you know, it's not changing dinner. Right? It's not a it's not going to change the world. But man, is it fun? And I just started watching the book of boba and just like, it's fun as hell man. If I saw I saw this meme of. It's like kids playing with Star Wars toys. And it's like Jon Favreau, David Fillion, and then making the Mandalorian and they're just literally having the fun playing with there. Isn't someone's filming it? Um, Martha, thank you so much for being on the show. It has been an absolute pleasure talking to you and it has been.

Marta Kauffman 1:04:55
Thank you Alex. I appreciate your thoughtful questions.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:58
It was wonderful talking to you and continued success thank you again for bringing for Friends into the world and also a Grace and Frankie and I cannot wait to see what you're up to next. So thank you again so much.

Marta Kauffman 1:05:08
Thanks so much. Bye



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IFH 225: How to Shoot a Feature Film in 24 Hours with Ivan Malekin

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Imagine shooting an entire feature film in 24 hours. How could you do something like that and not make it a bad stage play? Today’s guest was not only able to do that but made a damn good film in the process. Ivan Malekin and his partner Sarah Jayne directed the feature film Friends, Foes & Fireworks in just one night (24 hours). Here’s some info on the film.

An intimate New Year’s Eve reunion of five female friends in the independent acting scene becomes a test of relationships when old tensions spark, truths are told, and rivalries are reignited. Will the group make it through the night together or will their friendship fizzle out like an overzealous fireworks display?

Filmed in a single night, the craziest and most chaotic night of the year – NYE – and relying entirely on improvisation, Friends, Foes & Fireworks is an ambitious Australian drama exploring relationships, love, friendship and the truths we try and fail to keep to ourselves.

Ivan, Sarah and I develop a course on how they wrote, shot, edited and sold Friends, Foes, and Fireworks. The online course is called How to Shoot & Direct an Improvised Feature Film in 24 Hours. Since you are part of the IFH Tribe we are offering a HUGE discount for you guys. It’s regularly $174.99 but you get it for $17.99! This is a LIMITED TIME OFFER. 

We dive into what it took to make a film in 24 hours, did they use a script or scriptment? How many cameras? How many crew and much more. Get ready to be inspired and enjoy my conversation with Ivan Malekin.

Alex Ferrari 1:54
Now you guys have you ever dreamt of making a feature film in one day in literally 24 hours in a row. And just be done with a feature film a good feature film that you can actually go out and sell? Well, today's guest did exactly that. Ivan Malekin and his partner Sarah Jane directed a movie called friends bows and fireworks. And that film was shot on New Year's Eve. In Australia, I think it was Melbourne. And they got a bunch of their friends together their actor friends together, they rehearsed the hell out of it. They shot with two cameras. And they literally ran straight through for 24 hours, all the way through the actor said To hell with it. We're not going to sleep. Let's just go and get it done. And they did. And they actually finished a pretty good movie, I saw the movie, I wanted to see what a 24 hour movie look like. And it looked great. I was really, really impressed. So I wanted to get him on the show to talk about the process of what they did, how they did it, all the technical stuff, how they worked with the actors, was their script meant was their real, you know, full blown script. How do they actually do it? And I want to hope hopefully, this gives you some inspiration as well to go out and make your film. So without any further ado, here's my conversation with Ivan Malekin. And I'd like to welcome to the show Ivan Malekin. And man How you doing?

Ivan Malekin 3:47
I'm good. How are you Alex?

Alex Ferrari 3:48
I'm good brother. I'm good. I'm so I'm excited to have you on the show, man cuz you guys reached out to me and said, Hey, you know, we shot this movie in a day. And we're selling it now and I would love for you to took a look at it. I'm like, I love to see what a movie shot in a day looks like. And I was pleasantly surprised. I was Yeah, I was kind of shocked at how good it is because I did my movie and eight days at and everyone says how do you do that? But you took it to a whole other place. So first and foremost, how did friends foes and fireworks even get started? How did you get the idea to make a movie in a day?

Ivan Malekin 4:25
Oh, it did a plan. It wasn't actually filming the day. We were just thinking. We wanted to actually make a film on New Year's Eve. Sarah, my co director and my wife. We think museums overrated yo, it's A lot of feasible but not much bang. So we thought well we rather do we actually we'd rather be making a film. So we base a story around his eba we actually proved to the actors, you know it's going to be really tough to shoot all night long. Do you want to just go to midnight because we have the fireworks the key Part of the issue with power works, we will just go to mark, we'll get that. And then we'll come back and finish off the wrist UI another time for everyone just wanted to keep going. So, you know, we were glad they did, like, you know, it just adds more authenticity to the whole project. So like, you know, we just kept powering on like a lot of coffee, a lot of Red Bull, and we got through it.

Alex Ferrari 5:19
So it wasn't, it wasn't actually a plan, it was something that you it kind of just happened because the act just like let's just do this.

Ivan Malekin 5:26
It wasn't the initial plan. But you know, we kind of settled probably two weeks beforehand. Yes, we're going to actually do this all in one night. And then we started building a plan around that. And the way we achieve that, you know, I co directed with Sarah. So, even while we're in the same apartment, I'd be shooting a scene in the bedroom with two actors. She'll be on the balcony shooting a scene with other two actors. So we've been shooting simultaneously in the same location.

Alex Ferrari 5:54
Oh, wow. Okay, so you were breaking up the cameras. That's pretty. That's pretty insane. Now, how did you actually get started in the business? Tell me a little bit about yourself as a filmmaker,

Ivan Malekin 6:06
Myself personally, probably started around 10 years ago, 2007. Back in uni, I'd done professional writing for a long time, I actually want to be a novelist. I had a friend that was into slasher horror films, and he recruited me to help him make one or one of them had a hand his script I helped directed, and it was just seeing your words immediately come to light before your eyes, it was so immediate, it was so engaging, and from there kind of, you know, gave up the dreams or novel inspiration and started writing scripts and started getting to filmmaking.

Alex Ferrari 6:41
That's, that's pretty amazing. Now, what was the writing process? And the story process? Like for a movie that's mostly improv?

Ivan Malekin 6:48
Well, yeah, the movie is completely improvised. So what we do in work, we actually break down a treatment of the whole story, scene by scene. We sit down with the actors and develop their backgrounds, ask them questions about, you know, the emotions and reactions. And we also we get all the actors and kind of recreated scenes that the characters would have in the past. Like, for instance, in France, person fireworks, one of the characters, Sophia is an acting teacher to the other girls. So we had Sophia run acting class, for the other characters to actually develop a bond and a shared history that can draw upon for the film.

Alex Ferrari 7:30
Okay, so you did a little bit of like method, rehearsal.

Ivan Malekin 7:35
A bit of, you know, improv games, but also just a lot of discussions and all the actual nights, we kind of had docked points of possibly one of their hits, like each scene, like, yeah, we want the conversation to go here. We didn't know what was actually going to happen. But yeah, that was kind of the intention, like you get the point of the same across. So yeah, we'll kind of like do a take and like, tick off. Okay, we got that. We got that. No, we didn't quite get this. Let's try that again.

Alex Ferrari 8:03
Now, can you tell the audience a little bit about what the movie is about friends, foes and fireworks

Ivan Malekin 8:08
Principles on fireworks is about five female friends who really are not on New Year's Eve, that have a long history together the only independent acting scene. But there's also old tensions between the group so as they realize you're set to have a good time, the tensions from the past they can't help by resurface and you know, it all eventually breaks down and then the characters will have to grow and kind of find a way to move forward.

Alex Ferrari 8:36
Now did you did you actually rehearse the actual scenes or just only the like backstory scenes,

Ivan Malekin 8:42
Only the backstory is no rehearsals are the same because well, no scripts and no wants to rehearse so so you really were just kind of there capturing the lightning as you will when when they got on set. You had no idea what was going to happen. Even one of the characters Terran he plays the boyfriend of another character called a cinder who's been in the UK and she met in the UK. So the other characters, they never actually met her. And so we deliberately kept him away from the rest of the group. And the first time they meet him is we cameras rolling as he walks through the door.

Alex Ferrari 9:18
So it has a very naturalistic vibe.

Ivan Malekin 9:23
Yeah, capturing that actual genuine reaction as they are meeting for the first time.

Alex Ferrari 9:27
Now, how did you direct actors that are performing improv?

Ivan Malekin 9:32
So like I said before, with the dot points, so kind of doing a scene, seeing what they like, saying, you're picking up anything that they might have missed. So, you know, we sit down with them after take and like, yo, we'll go do it again. More if there's a path that we might have missed on camera, like a particular line that's really important to the character or to the film, and we didn't quite get it. Then we'll just like go in for a close up and record But

Alex Ferrari 10:01
Now, so you basically did what I call a scriptment, which is basically a very structured outline of scenes and then how they get to their point is up to them. Exactly. Now, how did you cast? Because there I don't see at least from from my vantage point, no, you know, recognizable faces or bankable stars. So I'm assuming you use locals in your area. How did you cast such a, you know, because this is a unique set of skills. As far as improv is concerned.

Ivan Malekin 10:30
We, you know, we have cast all locals and we shot the film back when we lived in Melbourne. And you know, we have a long history in Melbourne, independent film scene. So a lot of the actors we've worked with before we knew their strengths or weaknesses a lot come from a theatre background, so we knew they can pull it off. There was actually no formal audition process, it was all a matter of us actually approaching the individual actor to tell them a bad idea and see if they were going to be part of it.

Alex Ferrari 10:57
Did you find any? Did you run into any hiccups along the way in regards to production? With the rehearsal, like having actors rehearse like that? Did you find it at any moment to like, I'm not getting what I need? Or did you really just flow with it the way it came out,

Ivan Malekin 11:14
We did actually just flow with it out, back when we knew it was it was actually going to work. We've done a scene where all the characters celebrated a birthday dinner for Sophia. And in that scene, there was tension between the character named Fiona and Zoey Fiona's mother had passed away from breast cancer and Zoey makes your ancestor remark about cancer. And so actually done that scene with two cameras running, we shot it for 45 minutes, non stop in rehearsal, and emigrate. And that's all we actually knew that this concept was gonna work.

Alex Ferrari 11:51
Now, how many texted you usually get of any scene?

Ivan Malekin 11:56
The most will be three, but usually two to a call is one night, and we just have to cover keep moving. So yeah, we'd like to spend more time with her, but you kind of just got to go, go Go and next location. Next set up. Let's go.

Alex Ferrari 12:10
Now, how many cameras? Did you shoot with?

Ivan Malekin 12:12
Two cameras

Alex Ferrari 12:14
And what kind of cameras were they,

Ivan Malekin 12:16
Two Fs 100.

Alex Ferrari 12:18
Okay, and how was the workflow for that as far as like post production do it and all that kind of stuff?

Ivan Malekin 12:24
Well, the both shoot on pro res. It's only 1920. By 1080. We had our salad recorders how with using six lapels with six different actors plus of groom also still like eight channels or sounds like that. You're sinking all that. And isolated tracks that was, you know, very challenging sort of sound design took a long time for this film. But in terms of cameras, pretty much straight to premiere, you know, manually sync all the footage, and away we go.

Alex Ferrari 12:55
And how many crew members were on set most of the time?

Ivan Malekin 12:59
Most the time. In total, I'd say five or six. But when we split up, it was teams of three.

Alex Ferrari 13:09
Okay, so you actually had to like splitter units running around.

Ivan Malekin 13:14
So I'll be I'll be directing one unit and Sarah will be directed another unit. Like, at one point, she was on the beach, shooting a sunrise scene while I was back in the apartment shooting another sunrise scene. And like I pick up the microphone. I'll do sound myself sometimes.

Alex Ferrari 13:31
Right? Because you have to and that kind of situation.

Ivan Malekin 13:35
Doing second camera a lot of the time also,

Alex Ferrari 13:37
That's so you had to at all times you had two cameras minimum? Exactly.Unless you're doing splinter cells.

Ivan Malekin 13:43
Yeah. And there's just one camera age. But then like, by the time it's one camera age, they're two person scenes. So we know we can cover one camera

Alex Ferrari 13:52
That's pretty amazing man, you just kind of you know, I did something similar with my movie where I just kind of rolled within it was mostly improv. But this is this is a whole other level. When you're when you're rushing to do it all in one day, like how do you stay? I mean, how many hours did you shoot all in?

Ivan Malekin 14:08
We probably started by time we got to set 4pm in the afternoon, and we've got probably around 7am or 730. And then me and Sarah were cleaning up the apartment until about 930 in the morning. So I don't know how much the hours that led up to 15 that's like that's

Alex Ferrari 14:27
That's that's like an average average life. That's like an average day in the film world. But you got a whole feature out of it. What I find fascinating about your your way of doing this, is that you I mean, there was obviously a lot of preparation for this because you don't just kind of like grab a bunch of friends and go shoot. You prepared for this. You worked out the story. You work with the actors created backstory, how many like how long have the kind of a pre production process that you go through?

Ivan Malekin 15:00
Can't quite remember it was probably a month early or pre production had the idea of, you know, the sad December die Tommy cast and it didn't take too long to cast. You know, because we just we knew all the actors that we want to work with. So probably only about a month. So not that long surprisingly.

Alex Ferrari 15:23
Now I'm assuming and I won't be as crude as to ask you what your budget was, but I'm assuming this was under a million dollars.

Ivan Malekin 15:31
It's all IBD. It's 10,000.

Alex Ferrari 15:32
So you made the movie for 10. Grand 10 grand was first, and that includes posts?

Ivan Malekin 15:41
Yeah, that includes post most of it actually is post.

Alex Ferrari 15:44
Yeah, exactly. Right. And everyone was paid something.

Ivan Malekin 15:48
Everyone's paid something that's pretty, like different contracts and like your profit share and things like that.

Alex Ferrari 15:55
So profit sharing with the actors.

Ivan Malekin 15:58
Yep. A little smaller from free, and then profit share. You know, because you're building a community, you're you're asking actors to give up the New Year. Again, that's a pretty Yeah. With so we're not even sure if it's going to work. So you know, it's a big commitment. And you want people on the same page, and you will be in this together. Yeah, it's a it was a basically a big experiment, because you really had no idea. I've never done anything like this. I'm assuming you had not done this style of shooting before. We have never done this style before. Everything else we've done has been scripted. But now the feature we're working on currently incorporate with filming improvised again, just because we so much enjoy this process. I don't think I want to go back to use scripts.

Alex Ferrari 16:41
I feel you man. Because after I did, I did after I did my movie. It was just such a wonderful experience. And if you have good actors, you really can pull something off.

Ivan Malekin 16:52
That's amazing. You're just releasing you from restraints,

Alex Ferrari 16:55
Isn't it? Isn't it right? Like Yeah, cuz I felt so free the entire time in the actors felt free. Everyone just felt kind of like, wow. And it's that for every movie, obviously, if you're going to do $100 million action movie, you know, you're not going to do this, though Iron Man did? Yeah, actually. They were writing the script on the day, Jeff Bridges came out and said, yeah, we walk into the set that then no one knew what we were going to shoot, where they just had basically seen sets up and then like, Jeff Bridges. Yeah, so it did kind of happen on Iron Men. But generally speaking on these big budget movies, it doesn't work that way. But I'm, that's one of the reasons I want to have you on the show because I wanted to talk to someone else who's kind of gone through this process, the same one that I did, and just kind of preach from the top of the mountain like there. This is a wonderful experience.

Ivan Malekin 17:51
Yeah, I love it so much. Because even this probably came about Yeah, I've had negative experiences on set before like everything's structured everything really formal. You know, last year, we made a couple of expensive short films just did not enjoy the process. We just want to kind of go back to the core of why we got into filmmaking which is we do this for passion We do this because we have so much fun with it. So we want to recapture that fun.

Alex Ferrari 18:16
And this character and then it again, it's again you're writing a story around the elements you have so I'm assuming you had your that was your apartment was

Ivan Malekin 18:27
Actually we put it out on a grid because it was in St Kilda in Melbourne so we put out all the security community group asking anyone have apartments and a lovely lady step forward. I'm away uneasy if you can have my apartment. Here you go. So you don't even have to pay for the apartment. No, we did not.

Alex Ferrari 18:43
Jesus. Now when you left the apartment, did you have any permits for shooting on the streets?

Ivan Malekin 18:48
No permits. No wonder the girls were worried especially your New Year's Eve here on public streets. We did actually have a security guard with us. You know, just provide protection but it actually turned out. Melbourne is usually really hot on New Year's Eve you get these really balmy nights, but that was colder nights. So it wasn't as busy as we thought was going to be we actually have the opposite problem looks like a crowded beach. Here we actually it was also because was so called a windy it was actually virtually almost empty.

Alex Ferrari 19:21
So you had it all to yourself.

Ivan Malekin 19:23
Yeah, yeah, pretty much like yeah, there's groups of people here and they're like, yeah, occasionally. Yeah, the worst thing we wanted was like your copyrighted music getting in the way. So we have to go you're further away from people, but it was actually much easier on the streets than we thought it would be.

Alex Ferrari 19:37
And and then when you were when you were out there shooting, I mean, because you had a fairly large footprint. It wasn't like it was just like you and a couple actors. It was all your actors to camera guys to directors sound. And I'm sure a couple of ancillary how many actual people were on the set

Ivan Malekin 19:56
Actors a six. So we had plus additional six pounds for people.

Alex Ferrari 20:01
So you're walking around Melbourne, New Year's Eve with six people. I'm assuming you had some lights.

Ivan Malekin 20:08
We did have some lights, you can't remember what they're called maybe a couple of days. Just to give them more Yeah, just a little bit ambience, you know, in dark rooms or like you're out on the beach in the sand or near Hudson, we just saw a couple of lights on the hearts like you're just given more light.

Alex Ferrari 20:26
Yeah, so yeah, so lighting wasn't a big deal, because it movie actually doesn't look bad at all, it looks actually fairly good for what it is very naturalistic. It's not very stylized. But but it's not low lid, it's not ugly by any stretch. So you know, and again, you've got 10 years behind you. So I'm just for the audience listening, it's not like, you know, you're going to be 15 and run out and do this, you can. But that experience that you're falling back on really, I'm assuming helped you during this process?

Ivan Malekin 20:54
Well, the whole point we wanted to make as naturalistic possible. So we wanted to minimize the use of light, it's all about also moving quickly. And because we're inspired by mumble core, they're traditionally not known for their, you know, standard production values. So, you know, we do the kind of aesthetic that we're working within, and we try to replicate that.

Alex Ferrari 21:15
Now you're actually so the film is done. Now, are you guys going to AFM this year,

Ivan Malekin 21:20
We are we're going to do a quick stop. Over at the American Film market, we've submitted to a couple of festivals, so just waiting on results. But ultimately, we made the film for iTunes, Amazon, Netflix, we didn't expect a similar list from this. So we'll kind of see what happens with the festivals first, and then we'll pursue iTunes release.

Alex Ferrari 21:42
Now, are you guys going to do your own self distribution?

Ivan Malekin 21:46
Well, we'll see what happens at the American fall markets, you know, we got a couple of meetings lined up. But if not, you know, a company like distributor, we know we can like approach them. And starches are released that we really like, you know, kind of set up from the start. That's what we wanted to do.

Alex Ferrari 22:03
And they can also pitch it to Netflix and Hulu as well. That's how we got our film in Hulu. Which is amazing. I can't believe that we actually did that. But distribute did that for us with the pitch. So yeah, it for this kind of budget. That kind of makes sense. Do you have an audience? Did you try building an audience? How do you plan on marketing this?

Ivan Malekin 22:25
Well, we got Facebook group, we got Instagram, you know, slowly building it up. So long way to go. But it's also just kind of want to film a group effort all in. So yeah, once it feels ready to be released, like Yo, actors reach out to your network crew, reach out to your network, and spread the word as fast as possible at doing interviews with people like you, of course, Alex, we have other reviews that we've done. So we just kind of want to keep building word of mouth. And you know, kind of reaches the apex as we're ready to release the film.

Alex Ferrari 23:00
Now, is this a model in your opinion that other filmmakers can and should follow and making either their first second third fourth fifth feature?

Ivan Malekin 23:09
I'm really not sure because this is the first time we're trying and also so like, like film shooting on yours. It was a bit of experiment. Even our release strategy is a bit of an experiment. So where can I go see what happens with it. We're confident we can get released and even we're shooting right now latest feature your mumblecore improvised kind of iTunes in mind also. So wait and see Fingers crossed. Very cool.

Alex Ferrari 23:37
Very cool. Now I'm gonna ask a few questions that I asked all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker wanting to break into the business?

Ivan Malekin 23:48
Pick up a camera and go out and shoot something. I never went to film school I learned just by doing a myself just by writing scripts and my first films are absolutely horrible. You know, the visuals are watchable by just you know, kept going and you learn from your own mistakes. But I also don't expect the world to kneel down and fall over your brilliant work like have you set yourself some standards but also be prepared to fail, but that's okay. Just pick up the camera and go make another one.

Alex Ferrari 24:22
Now, can you tell me what book had the biggest impact on your life or career book?

Ivan Malekin 24:29
I'm not really sure maybe JRR Tolkien Lord of the Rings. I was a big fantasy geek. Okay, when I was younger and I wouldn't want to be a novelist it was always fantasy. And the I still do have like a children's fantasy novel that I could play the first draft so I guess I don't know. I watch a lot of Game of Thrones. I guess it's that book was sold a fantasy.

Alex Ferrari 24:52
Very cool. And then what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life Hmm, that's a good question like so. Don't be humble, I guess. Okay. Be humble. Be yourself. Just, you know, find your own niche. What are three of your favorite films of all time? Terminator two, excellent. Dumb and Dumber.

Ivan Malekin 25:26
Okay. Oh, what am I watching recently that I really like? I don't necessarily try one. liberal she likes pears liberal. There we go. We'll go with that one.

Alex Ferrari 25:38
Anyway, Sarah's there as well. Yeah, she's behind me. Sarah, why haven't you been talking to us? I Hi, Sarah, the CO the CO director of this movie, I would have loved to have you on the show. Okay, and where can people find you?

Ivan Malekin 25:58
Nexus production group, our websites, it's npgroup.com.au, or Instagram or Facebook makes us production group. And yeah, there's actually a website for the film to friends, foesandfireworks.com.

Alex Ferrari 26:12
Very cool. Thank you so much for being on the show and sharing your journey on how to make a one day film. And hopefully it will inspire some filmmakers to go out there and grab a camera make their own.

Ivan Malekin 26:23
Thanks so much Alex.

Alex Ferrari 26:25
Well, guys, I don't know if if that's not the kind of inspiration you need to go out and make a movie. I don't know what is. These guys were pretty amazing. They just kind of went out and did it. And I think that is the biggest lesson we can take away from Ivan's and Sarah's journey is just go out and do it. Don't overthink it, just go out and do it and do it cheap. Do it just like Mark duplass says, Do it cheap make $1,000 movie make a $5,000 movie. Don't risk too much on these smaller movies. If you went out and made a 24 hour movie and it cost $100,000 You're crazy. There's no reason for something like that. But if you go out and make $1,000 movie or $5,000 movie for 24 hours in two days and four days, and you just rock it out, then go for it and do it. You know, that's exactly how I did this is Meg. That's exactly how I did on the corner of ego and desire, where you just I just went out and was like, screw it, we're gonna go make a movie. And let's see what happens and you kind of throw risk into the wind. Because the budgets are so low, you can be that ballsy, you can go out and experiment and do cool things. If you make $1,000 movie, it might not be that great. But it might be awesome. Like puffy chair was for Mark duplass, when they made their first feature film was horrible, and they spent $60,000 on it. And it was absolutely horrible, so bad that they destroyed it. And no one has ever seen it except the two brothers. Then they went out and made a movie for I don't even know how much puffy chair cost. But I know it didn't cause a lot. I think it was like $5,000, something like that. And it blew up. So you never know. But you're never going to become a better director, a better filmmaker, until you go out and actually become a filmmaker. Just go and do it. And I hope this story inspires you. And I hope the the stories of how my team and I made ego and desire that I'll be talking about in the course of the next few months. We'll continue to inspire you guys to go out there and make your own projects and tell your own stories. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, just head over to indiefilmhustle.com/225 for the show notes. And guys, do me a favor. If you did enjoy the trailer for on the corner of ego and desire on YouTube or on Facebook, share it, please send it out to everybody. You know, I want to get the word out on the movie. As much as the film is funny. It's also an allegory. It's also a hopefully a lesson and multiple lessons on what not to do as filmmakers. So I hope it helps filmmakers out there while they're laughing at themselves a little bit. So please share as many times in as many places as you can. It would mean the world to me and you can find the trailer at ego and desire film.com so as always, guys, keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive and I'll talk to you soon.




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