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IFH 802: Studios, Scores & Secrets: The Untold Story of Rotten Tomatoes with Patrick Lee

When the lights of the cinema dim and the hum of anticipation fills the air, something magical happens—stories come alive. And sometimes, the stories behind the storytellers are the most fascinating of all. On today’s episode, we welcome Patrick Lee, a man whose quiet curiosity and geeky love for film statistics helped shape the very lens through which millions of people now view cinema. Patrick Lee is the co-founder of Rotten Tomatoes, a website that has become both a cultural barometer and a battleground for filmmakers and fans alike.

Before Rotten Tomatoes became a household name, Patrick and his co-founders were merely tinkering with design and entertainment tech, creating websites for giants like Disney Channel and MTV. But like many innovative ideas, Rotten Tomatoes was born from a simple question: “What if people could see all the movie reviews—good and bad—in one place?” It was their creative director, Sen Duong, who initiated the project, running it as a side hustle until it became clear they were onto something far bigger than banner ads and online games.

The journey wasn’t smooth sailing. As Patrick explained, the film industry often has a conflicted relationship with Rotten Tomatoes. Studios love it when their movies are Certified Fresh but curse its very existence when the Tomato Meter goes south. “We’ve had studios threaten to pull ad campaigns or never advertise with us again,” Patrick revealed. It’s a fine balance between journalistic integrity and business pragmatism, and it’s one that Rotten Tomatoes walked with surprising grace—largely thanks to the team’s belief in transparency and fairness.

What’s remarkable is how this digital compass evolved into a kind of cinematic moral authority. “The Tomato Meter is basically the percent chance that you’ll like seeing a movie,” Patrick said. And therein lies its charm—it doesn’t claim objectivity. It’s not about whether a film is “good” in a vacuum. It’s about consensus. It’s about probability. It’s about knowing whether you, dear viewer, are likely to leave the theater with a full heart or an empty wallet.

Patrick also took us down a rabbit hole of changing critic landscapes. When Rotten Tomatoes began, the idea of a “professional critic” was easy to define: newspaper columnists, magazine reviewers, or syndicated television film buffs. Today, in an age of TikTok reviews and substack essays, that boundary has blurred. “Anybody can start a podcast or a YouTube channel,” he observed, echoing the democratization of media that defines our era. But for Rotten Tomatoes, quality still trumps quantity, and validation still requires rigorous standards.

Perhaps one of the most unexpected parts of the conversation veered toward China, where Patrick spent nearly a decade after selling Rotten Tomatoes. There, he witnessed first-hand the explosive rise of filmgoing culture. “Even for some random movie, theaters were sold out for hours,” he noted. With state-of-the-art theaters rising from dusty streets and censorship shaping storylines, China has become both a new frontier and a mirror reflecting global shifts in entertainment priorities.

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IFH 794: The Art of Film Marketing: How to Make Your Movie Impossible to Ignore with Danielle Raiz

A blank canvas. A single frame. The quiet hum before a film breathes life into a screen. But what happens after the final cut? How does a filmmaker’s vision transcend the void and reach the hearts and minds of an audience? Today, we unravel this mystery with Danielle Raiz, a passionate advocate for creatives, whose work at Wix has been dedicated to empowering filmmakers and video creators.

In this boundless digital age, content creation has become more than just an art—it is a language, a currency, a revolution. Danielle Raiz reminds us that the modern filmmaker is no longer a mere artist but an entrepreneur, an architect of their own cinematic empire. She shares how filmmakers can harness websites, digital marketing, and audience engagement to elevate their craft beyond the screen. “You have to engage with your viewers even before you start filming,” she emphasizes. “You build your own website, create a teaser, and start talking to your fans. You share behind the scenes, updates, and teasers to create a buzz before your film is even out.”

A film, like a tree in the forest, may not make a sound if no one is there to hear it. Gone are the days when a filmmaker could rely solely on festivals and distributors. The power has shifted. Now, with tools like Wix, a filmmaker can craft their own digital home—a place where their work is presented with intention, where it is not merely another flickering light in the vast, crowded universe of content. The key is in visibility. “Your site is really your business card,” Danielle Raiz explains. “When people talk to you, they’ll Google your name. If they find a professional, beautiful online presence, it reflects on how they see your work.”

It is no longer enough to create; one must cultivate. Cultivate an audience, a brand, a presence. Marketing is not a necessary evil; it is an extension of the story itself. The best marketing does not feel like marketing at all—it is storytelling, an invitation, an experience. Danielle Raiz speaks of how major brands have already embraced this, turning advertisements into compelling short films. The lesson for filmmakers? Market your work as you would craft a scene—thoughtfully, purposefully, beautifully.

Yet, beyond the artistry of marketing lies a fundamental truth: control. “For a long time, video creators had to play by the rules of streaming platforms,” she says. “Now, everyone is chasing after great content creators. You have the power. You control the way your work is displayed, monetized, and shared. And that is an exciting time to be a filmmaker.”

We live in a time where technology shifts at the speed of thought. Virtual reality, interactive storytelling, live engagement—these are no longer distant dreams but tools at our fingertips. The game is no longer about who gets a seat at the table; it is about those who build their own table. And in this unfolding cinematic future, those who understand both art and strategy will rise.

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Top 15 Indie Filmmaking Podcasts (Oscar® and Emmy® Winners)

Indie Filmmaking Podcasts have been so important to me over the past few years. Indie Film Hustle entered into the podcast space in 2015 with the launch of its first original podcast series, The Indie Film Hustle Podcast.

The response to the podcast was so amazing that after a few short months the show became the #1 filmmaking podcast on Apple Podcasts & Spotify, and still maintain that honor. I’m truly humbled and thankful by the response.

The show is only as good as the indie filmmakers who listen to it. Thank you all for the support. I have put together the Top 15 Indie Filmmaking Podcasts from the IFH archives. This list will be updated every few months so keep checking back.

Click here to subscribe on iTunes,  Spotify, Stitcher, or Soundcloud.

1. Oliver Stone

Today on the show I bring you one of the most influential and iconic writer/directors in the history of cinema, three-time Oscar® winner Oliver Stone. Throughout his legendary career, Stone has served as writer, director, and producer on a variety of films, documentaries, and television movies. His films have been nominated for forty two Oscars® and have won twelve.

2. Joe Carnahan

It’s been a hell of a year so far. I’ve been blessed to have had the honor of speaking to some amazing filmmakers and man today’s guest is high on that list. On the show we have writer/director Joe Carnahan. Joe directed his first-feature length film Blood, Guts, Bullets and Octane. which was screened at the 1998 Sundance Film Festival, and won some acclaim.

3. Richard Linklater

We are joined by indie film icon and Oscar® nominated writer/director Richard Linklater. Richard was one of the filmmakers who helped to launch the independent film movement that we know today with his classic 1991 indie film Slacker. As a bonus, we will not only dive into the extraordinary career of Richard Linklater but also that of collaborator and longtime friend writer/director Katie Cokinos, the filmmaker behind the film I Dream Too Much. 

4. Edgar Wright

In the house today is the iconic screenwriter and director, of Scott Pilgrim vs. the World, Shaun of the Dead and Blockbuster hit, Baby DriverEdgar Wright. Edgar has been on the scene making and writing satirical genre films, while also acting for almost thirty years.

He’s here today to talk about his most recent and upcoming film, Last Night In Soho. It is set for release on October 29, 2021, and stars the Queen’s Gambit star, Anya Taylor-Joy. The “Last Night in Soho” title is taken from a song by those Tarantino soundtrack favorites Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick & Tich.

5. Edward Burns

Today’s guest is a writer, director, producer, actor, and indie filmmaking legend, Edward Burns. Many of you might have heard of the Sundance Film Festival-winning film called The Brothers McMullen, his iconic first film that tells the story of three Irish Catholic brothers from Long Island who struggle to deal with love, marriage, and infidelity.

His Cinderella story of making the film, getting into Sundance, and launching his career is the stuff of legend. The Brothers McMullen was sold to Fox Searchlight and went on to make over $10 million at the box office on a $27,000 budget, making it one of the most successful indie films of the decade.

6. Jason Blum

I’m excited to talk to a fellow low-budget independent filmmaker today.

Granted, he does low-budget films on a completely different level than I or most people do at this point. But if we are going to talk about budget filmmaking, it is only fitting to have expert horror film and television producer, Jason Blum of Blumhouse Productions.

That is a testament to his company’s high-quality production. Blumhouse is known for pioneering a new model of studio filmmaking: producing high-quality micro-budget films and provocative television series. They have produced over 150 movies and television series with theatrical grosses amounting to over $4.8 billion.

7. Edward Zwick 

We have been on a major roll lately on the podcast and this episode keep that going in a big way. Our guest on the show today is Oscar® Winning writer, producer, and director Edward Zwick. Edward made his big shift from his childhood passion of theater to filmmaking after working as a PA for Woody Allen in France on the set of Love and Death.

8. John Sayles

John Sayles is one of America’s best known independent filmmakers, receiving critical acclaim for films including Eight Men Out (1988), Lone Star (1996) and Men with Guns (1997). He’s also written screenplays for mainstream films such as Passion Fish (1992), Limbo (1999), The Spiderwick Chronicles (2008) and did a draft of Jurassic Park (1993) for Steven Spielberg.

9. Neill Blomkamp

Ever since I saw District 9 and learned of all the mythical stories behind the short film becoming a feature, I have been a massive fan of today’s guest, Neill Blomkamp. Though Neill is here today to talk about his new sci-fi horror fiction film, Demonic, we also chatted up about his other films that have been successful over the years.

10. David F. Sandberg

So many times we hear those mythical stories of a filmmaker who makes a short film and uploads it to Youtube in hopes of a big time film producer sees to and comes down from Mount Hollywood and offers him or her a deal to turn that short into a studio feature. Today’s guest had that happen to him and then some. On the show is writer/director David F. Sandberg.

David’s story is the “lottery ticket” moment I speak about so often on the show. His journey in Hollywood is remarkable, inspiring and scary all at the same time.  He created a short film called Lights Out. That short was seen by famed filmmaker and producer James Wan (Furious 7, Aquaman, The Conjuring) who offered to produce a feature film version at New Line Cinema.

11. Albert Hughes

I can’t be more excited about the conversation I’m about to share with you. Today on the show we have filmmaker and indie film legend Albert Hughes. Albert, along with his brother Allen began making movies at age 12, but their formal film education began their freshman year of high school when Allen took a TV production class. They soon made the short film The Drive-By and people began to take notice.

After high school Albert began taking classes at LACC Film School: two shorts established the twins’ reputation as innovative filmmakers. Albert and his brother then began directing music videos for a little known rapper named Tupac Shakur. 

These videos lead to directing their breakout hit Menace II Society (1993), which made its world premiere at the Cannes Film Festival and grossed nearly 10 times as much as its $3 million budget.

12. Taylor Hackford

Sitting down with one of the big names in this business this week was a really cool opportunity. I am honored to have on the show today, Oscar® winning director, producer, and screenwriter, Taylor Hackford.

Taylor’s has directed films like An Officer and a Gentleman (1982), White Nights (1985), Proof of Life (2000), Dolores Claiborne (1995), Against All Odds (1984), Parker (2013), the iconic Ray Charles biopic, Ray of 2004, and The Comedian (2016) just to name a few. He also has served as president of the Directors Guild of America and is married to the incomparable acting legend Helen Mirren.

13. Troy Duffy

I’m always looking for success stories in the film business to study and analyze. Edward Burns (The Brothers McMullan) Robert Rodriguez (El Mariachi), Kevin Smith (Clerks), and Oren Peli (Paranormal Activity) come to mind. I’m sure many of you are familiar with the cult indie film classic The Boondock Saints but many of you might not know the crazy story of its writer and director Troy Duffy.

Well, prepare to get your mind BLOWN. I had an EXCLUSIVE discussion with Troy this week, and let’s say, he did not hold back. Nothing was off-limits – from his instant rise to fame to the brutal fate he met – getting blacklisted, all of it. He wanted to set the record straight because there is always another side to the story, and what better side to hear than that of the man who lived this brutal Hollywood adventure?

14. Barry Sonnenfeld

I can’t tell you how excited I am for today’s episode. I had the pleasure to speak to the legendary director Barry Sonnenfeld. We discuss his idiosyncratic upbringing in New York City, his breaking into film as a cinematographer with the Coen brothers, and his unexpected career as the director behind such huge film franchises as The Addams Family and Men in Black, and beloved work like Get Shorty, Pushing Daises, and A Series of Unfortunate Events.

We also chat about the time he shot nine porno films in nine days. That story alone is worth the price of admission.

15. Alex Proyas

I can’t be more excited to bring you this episode. On today’s show, we have the legendary writer/director Alex Proyas, the filmmaker behind The Crow, Dark City, The Knowing, Gods of Egypt, and I, Robot.

Alex Proyas had a huge influence on my filmmaking life. The Crow was one of those films I watch a thousand times, in the theater, when I was in film school. He began his filmmaking career working in music videos with the likes of Sting, INXS, and Fleetwood Mac before getting the opportunity to direct The Crow.

15.1 Sean Baker

Sean Baker is a writer, director, producer and editor who has made seven independent feature films over the course of the past two decades. His most recent film was the award-winning The Florida Project (2017) which premiered at the Cannes Film Festival and was released by A24 in the U.S. Among the many accolades the film received — including an Oscar nomination for Willem Dafoe for Best Supporting Actor — Sean was named Best Director by the New York Film Critics Circle.

His previous film Tangerine (2015) premiered at the Sundance Film Festival and won an Independent Spirit and two Gotham Awards. Starlet (2012) was the winner of the Robert Altman Independent Spirit Award and his previous two features, Take Out (2004) and Prince of Broadway (2008), were both nominated for the John Cassavetes Independent Spirit Award.

Bonus: Eric Roth

This week, I sat down with one of the most legendary and successful screenwriters/producers in Hollywood, Oscar® Winner Eric Roth. Over a 50+ years career, he’s well-known for writing or producing films like Forrest Gump, A Star is Born, Mank, The Curious Case of Benjamin Button, Munich, Ali, and the list goes on.

Bonus: David Chase

The legacy of the crime drama television series, The Sopranos remains a defining art of storytelling for mob TV shows. We have the genius behind this hit TV series, David Chase as our guest today.

As expected, Chase is a twenty-five-time Emmy Awards-winner, seven times Golden Globes winner, and highly acclaimed producer, writer, and director. His forty-year career in Hollywood has contributed immensely to the experience of quality TV.

Before getting into the nitty-gritty of Chase, let’s do a brief of the HBO 1999 hit show, The Sopranos: Produced by HBO, Chase Films, and Brad Grey Television, the story ran for six seasons, revolving around Tony Soprano, played by James Gandolfini, a New Jersey-based Italian-American mobster, portraying the difficulties that he faces as he tries to balance his family life with his role as the leader of a criminal organization.

Bonus: Billy Crystal 

There are performers that impact your life without you even knowing it and today’s guest fits that bill. On the show, we have comedic genius, multi-award-winning actor, writer, producer, director, and television host, Billy Crystal. We’ve seen Billy’s versatile work across all areas in the entertainment world, stand-up, improv, Broadway, behind and in front of the camera, feature films, television, live stages like SNL, and animated movies.

 

IFH 505: How To Shake The Film Investor Money Tree with Morrie Warshawski

Today, we are going to be talking all about one of my favorite topics; how to raise money to get our films made. I think every filmmaker wants to know how to make or get money for their films. But it becomes very challenging.

My guest is an expert fundraiser, film financing consultant, facilitator, and author, Morrie Warshawski. He’s facilitated a lot of fundraising throughout his 35 years career and has authored Shaking the Money Tree: The Art of Getting Grants and Donations for Film & Video, and The Fundraising Houseparty: How to Party with a Purpose and Raise Money for Your Cause. 

Shaking The Money Tree demystifies the art of fundraising for independent film and video projects for students, emerging, and seasoned media makers.

Morrie has assisted artists, filmmakers, and non-profit organizations with strategic planning, organizational development, and marketing across the entertainment and other sectors. Some of his clients are Habitat for Humanity, The National Endowment for the Arts, and Western States Arts Federation.

I really wanted to talk about the mistake filmmakers make when trying to fundraise. Morrie seemed like the right guy for the job and he delivered.

It was interesting learning that Morrie initially studied at USC in hopes of going into filmmaking but ended up majoring in English. And followed on with an MA in English and the graduate Writers Workshop at the University of Iowa. 

He started working with independent videographers and filmmakers through the Bay Area video coalition in San Francisco and that’s when he transitioned to fundraising.

Morrie was generous with knowledge bombs and tips we all need when it comes to fundraising.
He highlights in this interview how vital it is for filmmakers on the look for donors to have good comportment — the basis of presenting oneself to the world. Another component is, understanding why they’re doing the work and having a strong feeling that the work you’re making must be made. And lastly, understanding where your strengths lie, and how you can surround yourself with workarounds for your deficits.

Our conversation was pretty much enlightening and fun. Check the show notes for links to learn more about the work Morrie does and his books.

Get a notebook and pen to jolt down gems and enjoy my conversation with Morrie Warshawski.

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Alex Ferrari 0:02
I like to welcome to the show Morrie Warshawski. How you doing, Morrie?

Morrie Warshawski 0:08
I'm good today. Thanks for having me.

Alex Ferrari 0:10
Thank you so much for being on the show. I truly appreciate it. We are going to be talking all about one of my favorite topics how to raise money to get our films made. I think every filmmaker wants to know how to make get money for their films. One of the biggest problems, the biggest problems I feel is finding money and then making money. Right? Because finding money is I've heard that from from finance, here's just like, finding the money is a lot easier than actually making the money after the movie is unlike recouping that money, it's been harder than finding the money. But it's two very important equations in our creative journey. But before we jump into that, how did you get started in the business?

Morrie Warshawski 0:57
Well, by accident, actually, I was. I taken a lot of film courses in college, I was at the University of Southern California, and I thought it'd be a film major, but ended up being an English major. Then I got an MA in English and went to the graduate Writers Workshop at the University of Iowa. And I taught for a while at USC in a interdisciplinary arts program. And then, through a bit of serendipity, I was invited to be an intern in the dance program at the National Endowment for the Arts. So I spent the summer with dancers. And when I got back to LA, I turned to my wife and said, I'm going to quit teaching and work with dancers. So we moved to Portland, Oregon, and I ran a dance company called Portland Dance Theater. And while I was there, I met up with people who ran the the media project in Portland. And it's not there anymore. But it was a nonprofit that specialized in working with independent filmmakers doing distribution. So picked up work by filmmakers, Indies, and distributed. And this was back in the day when video had just started, there really wasn't any video distribution. We were distributing 16 millimeter reels, to schools. And I worked there for two years now I got hired to run the Bay Area video coalition in San Francisco and spent three years there working with independent videographers and filmmakers. And that's where I cut my teeth and working with independent filmmakers. That's where I learned a lot about fundraising.

Alex Ferrari 2:43
So yeah, I can imagine the days of distribution back before before video was just basically just trying to sell 16 millimeter prints and 30. I still remember when I was in God, I was in first or second grade, they had a 35 millimeter print or 16 millimeter, I don't even know. It might have been a 35. But who knew that probably was a 16 of Superman of Superman one. And they played and they played it in the auditorium for everybody and everyone lost their mind. Yeah. I remember those days now. So you've obviously you've done a lot of fundraising. For filmmakers, what is the biggest mistake you see filmmakers make when trying to, you know, fundraise trying to get money from different different areas, which we'll go into a little bit, but what do you think their biggest mistake is?

Morrie Warshawski 3:33
Well, there are many mistakes. I'm not sure I can locate the biggest one. But I think if I had to locate one, it would be comportment, something I call comportment, okay, which is central to my work. And if I work with a filmmaker, one of the first things I do with them is talk to them and work on their comportment, how they present themselves to the world. The attitude that they bring to the work when they're fundraising, because, you know, I rarely meet a filmmaker who want wants to fundraise. Most of them. I mean, really, they don't fail because you wanted to fundraise.

Alex Ferrari 4:17
Nobody wants to fundraise. Nobody wants to distribute. They just want the fun, sexy stuff.

Morrie Warshawski 4:22
That's right, yeah. But it's part and parcel of the work. So once you realize that you do have to have to do the fundraising. It's rare that the filmmaker enjoys it. You know, it's rarely an enjoyable process. So if you bring that kind of baggage with you to the fundraising process, it's a blockage to getting money. It's a huge blockage to getting money. So what I do is when I'm working with a filmmaker, I get them very centered in really understanding why they're doing the work and Why or whether or not it's important to do, because that's really like the bottom line, it's the basis for the fundraising is really having a strong feeling that the work you're making must be made. And that you must make it. If you can't find that, then I can't help you, then you should make one quick film and get the hell out of the business. So that's the first square. And then the second square is Who are you, and you understand who you are. And what your limitations on what your strengths are, it's really important to understand where your strengths lie, and how you can surround yourself with workarounds for your deficits. So I'd say that's, that's a huge, I guess I should have.

Alex Ferrari 5:59
It's always something. But so I agree with you. 100%. And you're right. I mean, I I crowdfunded my first feature, and I hated it. I hated it so much I not that it wasn't, it was successful. And I was able to fundraise for the movie, but it was just so I just don't like doing that kind of brand, that kind of work. I just, it's not for me. So my second film I financed myself, I was like, not, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna, I can't, I can't, I didn't want, I need to do it as an experiment experience. And also, I could teach other people how I did and all that stuff, but I won't do it again. But do you find that there is a, I always find this with filmmakers, especially when they're looking for money, or they're looking for opportunity? Or if they feel that you can give them something in their journey, that that, that stink of desperation. It's it is it? Am I wrong? It's a huge problem, right?

Morrie Warshawski 6:57
You're right. And you cannot bring that stink of desperation to your work. Or it's, it's death. You're done. And nobody wants to be around someone who's desperate, right? So you have to understand that you have to put yourself in the shoes of the donor of the person who might want to help you. Pretend that you're them, and you're meeting you, and your compartment is on desperate by doing this, please give me the money. I'll do anything for them. No, no, no, no, no, it won't work, you have to bring a completely different attitude to it. And that's why the first three things I have filmmakers identified it for I help them fundraise is, number one, what are your core values? Because value, fundraising is actually a value laden proposition. What you're doing is you're trying to find people whose values overlay your values and the values of your project. And they're the ones who are most likely to want to support you. So you have to understand what your values are. And the values are your project. And you have to broadcast those strongly in your marketing, in the way you talk to people, and how you scan the environment for who you want to work with and what opportunities you want, and which opportunities you don't want. Because that will bring you money. And that will differ you away from money that's never going to come your way. And then the second thing I have every filmmaker do is write a mission statement. And the mission statement is I am doing this work because right, yeah, because that's what you're bringing to the conversation with a funder that makes you unique, they have to know that you have a backbone, that you're serious about the work that you're doing. You're not desperate, what you're saying to the funder is I'm bringing you an opportunity, you can come with me amplify your values in the world, do good in the world. And you'll feel great about it. Or you can ignore this opportunity, in which case I feel sorry for you

Alex Ferrari 9:18
But that's a position of that's a position of strength that you just laid out not the not the position of desperation, which is 99% of all filmmakers looking for money for their projects. And it's I mean, if anyone listening you just even if you if you're trying to go out with a guy or girl and either either one and you are just like on top of them and emailing them and and stalking them on Facebook, and trying to just like the sense of desperation. Nobody wants to be around that and I've tried to say that so many times. And that's not just with fundraising just like building relationships with people like you. It's a people thing you it's a people business, you need to build authentic relationships built on real values, like you said, in order for anything to happen, but if you start asking people, the second I meet you, hey, Morrie, I look, I'm looking for 50,000. For my project. I know you I just I just met you more than I am. But you fundraise the lot. I think you and I can work together, can I really need the money? Can you can you? Can you give it to me more?

Morrie Warshawski 10:20
Now, because, you know, when you're funding, you're saying you have to understand when, with when to approach the donor with the ask,

Alex Ferrari 10:30
and how do you do? So? Okay, so let's say how do you approach an individual donor? We'll talk about the other entities later, but it's specifically an individual owner, a donor? How do you build you know, build that relationship, do the outreach, and then start and because you don't do it, like right away? Like, how do you? How do you how do you build that kind of that gameplan that blueprint?

Morrie Warshawski 10:51
Well, you have to understand that there's a ladder involvement with any one can be individual could be a group, an organization, a funder Corporation, there's a ladder of involvement. And at the top of a ladder is, I am a rabid fan of yours, I love you, I will do anything for you, I will write you a check. I will beg my friends to give you money that's at the top of the ladder. At the bottom of the ladder is Who the hell are you? I don't know you? Why would I want to know you, right? And then there's all these steps in between. And what I tell my clients is be conscious of where you are in the ladder with anyone you are talking to. And what you want to do is you want to move people up the ladder of involvement and engagement. Only at a certain point in ladder, are you ready to make an ask for the month, and until then you're not ready. And that's why relationship building and community build are basic to this business. Now. That's what you should be doing all the time as, as you cast around your environment. Every time you write a letter. Every time you post something to social media, every time you decide which social media avenue to use. You have to say to yourself, how can I move people up the ladder of involvement? How can I make rabid fans? Because those that that's what pays off? 1,000%? So let's say that I wanted to get money from you? Well, the first thing I'd have to ask myself is why do I think that Alex would want to give me money? I don't know Alex, I've never met him. So I do research. I research Alex, I'll go to the internet. I'll Google Alex, I'll read your profile, I'll find out what your interests are. What I really want to find out is where have you given money before? Who have you given money to? Is my project going to be warm to you? Because they're going to contain something in it that you might want to help me with. But and then the second thing I want to ask is, what do I want from Alex? Um, I want money always want money. But maybe I want Alex's expertise. Right? Maybe what I could use from Alex is the use of his name as an advisor. Right? Maybe I want Alex so I could just pick his brain. So there's, maybe Alex has some equipment I could use, I want to borrow it for free or get it at a reduced but so this, you want to be strategic is what I'm saying? Right? And you have to bring that strategic attitude to every involvement with every person, it takes work. And research is at the basis of that. So once I've I've identified two things, one is what I want from you and what you're able to give. And the second thing is, what are your values? What are you interested in? Then the third thing I want to do is I want to see where are you on that ladder of involvement with. Right, and then I want to start drawing you in and it might be with sending in an email. It might be with becoming a follower of yours on Facebook. It might be with who casting that you follow me? It might be with my talking to a friend of yours, who's a friend of mine. To see if there would be an introduction does you're never that's very large. You're never more than three people away from anybody on Earth. Really, I mean six degrees of separation at the most but almost anybody you want to get to you can and like three stars on your friendships and if

Alex Ferrari 14:45
your name is Kevin Bacon even faster. No but so. So I completely understand your point too. But so sometimes your the approach that you're you're proposing is more of Have someone giving in supporting you, but there should be some sort of value you're providing them. And that value could be experienced that value could be hanging out with movie stars, that value could be financial that value could be, I'm bored with my life, and I just want to go do something cool that I've never done before. There's other things that you're presenting as well. So it's not just, what can you do for me, but it's also what I can do for you. Is that correct?

Morrie Warshawski 15:26
That's right. And I have to know that before I talk to you, right? If I can, if I don't, then there are ways to find that out like with you. But wouldn't be at a first meeting, ask, it might be at a first meeting lunch, or a phone call or whatever, I have to know what you the donor need from me? What do you really want? And can I provide that, and it's different with every donor, don't assume that every donor wants the same thing. So if I give you like two extremes of donors, there's the donor who I call an investor. And that person wants money. Right? Pure and simple. And if you can't give them an avenue towards a potential payback, they don't want to be with you. And then at the other end of the spectrum, there's a donor that just wants to feel good and let you do whatever you need to do. Because they want to see something good. And they don't want anything back. They don't want to remain anonymous, they don't even want their name on. And then there's everything in between. And most people and donors are in between somewhere. But those are the two Antipodes. And I have to understand where you are on that spectrum. Before I make the ask.

Alex Ferrari 16:47
Yeah, without question. So now that you have Okay, so let's say you're building this relationship, what are the elements of a perfect pitch? Like, how do you do that pitch, because that's a whole other I've have spoken about pitching extensively throughout my years on the show, and it is an art, it is an art and it's not for everybody. So if you if you don't know how to pitch, either learn or hire somebody and find someone who can actually pitch Well, if not, you're done.

Morrie Warshawski 17:16
So there's a lot to say about the pitch. The first thing I would say is, you must have a pitch.

Alex Ferrari 17:24
Step one.

Morrie Warshawski 17:27
And I don't care if you don't like pitching, know how to pitch yada, yada, yada, you as the filmmaker must have a pitch. And it must be no more than 20 seconds long. This is a this is a basic pitch that you must create. I'll tell you why in a second, you can have longer pitches. But the big pitch, the one that you must have is at least 1/22 pitch, often recommend that you have a couple of different short pitches, depending on where you are, who you're talking to. And it must be compelling. And the purpose of the pitches it needs to reveal your interest in if you are likely to be interested. Now remember, there's a whole universe of people who are never going to be interested. Forget them. What you're interested in is that small unit of people who are likely to be interested, and your job is to reel them in and make them want to talk to you and ask questions. The pitch is like such a powerful tool. It makes you money all the time. Because I mean, here's the typical situation. You're at the grocery store, Safeway, and you're in line waiting to pay for your goods. And it turns out the line is long. So you turn around to the person behind you, and you say, I'm always on the wrong line. Even if I'm at the shortest line, it ends up being the longest line. And the other person said, and this is actually a true story that happened in San Francisco at the Safeway in the morning, filming Tony Stark, right. So she's talking to this guy behind them. It's actually one of those places where single coda meet up, but at any rate, so she's, and she says them, you know, what I just said? And he says, Yeah, I can list all the time and always have to wait in line. And she says, damn, well, Woody, what do you do? And he says, Well, I'm in accounting. I'm an accountant. And he says, Well, what do you do? He says to her, what do you do? And she says, Well, I'm a filmmaker. How many times this has happened? You in the world, right? She says, I'm an independent filmic. He says, Oh, that's interesting. What what are you working on? Are you with me? He says to her, what are you working on? Now, if she doesn't have a pitch, she's, he's gonna blow that moment. Right? Turns out, this woman has a pitch, it's 20 seconds long. She's in the Safeway line, right? In about two minutes, she's going to be up there spending money and saying goodbye to this guy. He gives him his pitch. And he goes, Oh, my God, that is really an interesting project. Give me your card, I want to talk to you about it, right? Two weeks later, she gets $10,000. So the pitch isn't always going to get you the money. But if you don't have the pitch, it's not going to get you the money. It highly increases the likelihood of you're meeting the right people, and getting the right things that you need, you must have the pitch. Okay, so you ask how do you ask for the money? That's a whole? That's a little separate science.

Alex Ferrari 21:09
Right? Right. Well, so alright, so before we get to that, so just for everyone's listening, it's like, it's the equivalent of being a painter and having a brush, and paint increases, the likelihood of you actually painting something, you might have the canvas, you don't have the brush in the paint, it just increases the chances of you actually ever painting anything. So that's a bit so.

Morrie Warshawski 21:33
So what I'm trying to say on a big metal level, is you are trying every moment of your life as a filmmaker, to increase the likelihood of success for you your film, fundraising, and distribution. That's why you want to be strategic. You want your comportment to work for you. You want everything in your environment to piggyback and work for you. So you need to be conscious about all of those elements. And when you are they pay off?

Alex Ferrari 22:10
Without question. So then how do you Okay, so now you have the pitch for the project, but how do you ask for the money.

Morrie Warshawski 22:18
So the first thing is, you have to know that the donor is ready for your pitch. So they have to be on that ladder of involvement somewhere where they're written, and it can't be like a cold call. The second thing is, if you are really bad at pitching you, you are allowed to bring someone with you for the ask who's good at it. So that's a good thing for a filmmaker to know if you're a very, very introverted filmmaker, who stutters, or whatever, you can bring someone with you to the ask if it's appropriate. So sometimes I'll have a tag team go in, which is really strong. But let's say you're going by yourself. The first thing is, you know that they're ready. The second thing, very important. What am I going to ask for? You must have a specific thing, or a specific amount of money that you will ask for. That's part of the equation of the pitch. You don't want to go in and say I need support. How much can you give?

Alex Ferrari 23:27
Oh, no, big mistake,

Morrie Warshawski 23:29
right? Well, I need support. I'll take anything it could get. Oh, no, no, you need to research and know, what their comfort zone of giving is. Find out how much they've given to other things in the world. Quite often, it's a big surprise. You never want you never want to ask for less than their comfort zone. That's a mistake you are allowed to ask for above their comfort zone. If you ask below, let's say I'm the donor. Remember that donors are experts at donating. They get pitched all the time. So while you're pitching them in what's going through their mind, put yourself in their shoes? Well, the first thing they're saying is how good is this guy pitching? Oh, he's asking me for $500 he doesn't know that I could give 50,000 right, that's going through their mind. So you want to know their comfort zone of giving before? Yes. So the typical rhythm of the ask if all of those things are in place on by the way, you'd like to control the environment where the as capitals. So quite often you have to go to their environment. Sometimes, I mean, the best scenarios if they come to your environment. If you have a studio and they come to your studio, that's my favorite place to ask is your environment, because they see you and you have control. And then there's everything in between, like restaurants, which I'm not fond of, because of the noise problem and privacy.

Alex Ferrari 25:20
So um, so let me ask you, though, so when you're asking for money for a film, there is some legal things you have to have in place like a ppm and all that kind of stuff, or is that not true?

Morrie Warshawski 25:34
Well, what are you asking for? If you're asking for a donation, different attacks a dipole donation, then either you have to have your own nonprofit Are you have to have another nonprofit that's working for you. Right? Right, a fiscal sponsor, a fiscal sponsor, to give the money through. And there are many good ones around the country, they usually take a small percentage, anywhere from 3% to 10%, I think is high 3% is very low, most of them will last like six or 7%. Sometimes you can get one for free, if they're a nonprofit that loves you and loves the project, sometimes, but fiscal sponsor something else we can talk about. So when you're making the ask, if you're asking for a donation or nonprofit charitable donation, then you must have a fiscal sponsor. If you're asking for an investment, then that's not really a donation, that's different. And then you must have a legal structure that's ready to accept that money somewhere. And LLC or blah, blah, blah. But there is something in between, which is like a no interest or low interest loan. Right? Sometimes you ask for for that. And then you don't need a legal structure. But you do need to have a lawyer on your team. And you have to have an instrument that's ready to accept the money, or don't make the ask.

Alex Ferrari 27:04
Right. Right. Because if they're, you know, if I'm like, hey, just write a check out to Alex, that's probably not a good idea. That opens you up personally to a lot of liability, it could open up, it could be a bad, bad thing. So you write an LLC, if you have a corporation, you could do it through that. But I would have created an LLC for the project regardless just to protect yourself and your assets.

Morrie Warshawski 27:29
Absolutely. That's kind of bottom line. Good basic advice. Always create that structure. Yeah. So to get back to the ask, do you want to Yes, continue, continue. So let's say I'm coming to your office, Alex's office. So the rhythm of the ask is, I'll sit down, and I don't want to begin by asking, I want to spend just a couple of minutes being friendly. It's what I call ice break time. So I should be ready to ask you or engage you in some kind of icebreaker. Now, the best scenario is we know each other, I've already talked to you before. So I might come in and say, Wow, the weather's great. And oh, by the way, how's your family, you know, is your son son still playing softball, blah, blah, blah, something to break the ice. If God forbid, you go in, and you've never met the person before, and you don't want to know much about them, which I never recommend. But let's say that happens, I might look around the room for a queue. And the queue might be pictures of your family, that might be a fish up on the wall. So I know that your official person will talk about the any thing to like break the ice. So you break the ice. But the rule of ice breaking is don't do it too long. Because that's unprofessional. You'll get a feel for when it's time to get into the ask. So when the ice break is over, then you say, then you'll talk about the project. You'll give your pitch. You don't want to make it too long. You don't want to bore the donor. Ideally, they already have something in front of them about the project. So you talk a little about the project, and then you ask them if they have any questions. Now, the rule for the questions is let that go on. As long as the donor wants to make it happen. Now it's in, it's in their court. If they're interested in they're asking, let them ask whatever they have to ask. But at some point, you'll know that the time to talk about the project is over. And now you must make now you must make a direct ask for the money. And the direct ask has like a little equation to it a little formula. The first part of the formula is I have to look you straight in the eyes. Very important. Don't be looking down. Don't be looking over here. Don't be shy about it, you have to look them right in the eye. And then you have to say, Well, I know that you don't have any more questions about it about the product. I know that you're interested, we both know how important this project is. I'd like to ask you for a donation of $10,000 that I will use for post production. Period. Okay, so you ask for a specific thing and a specific amount. And then the next rule, and it's a huge, important inviolable rule for the ask is shut up. And the rule is, use zip up. And the next person to talk losers, it's not going to be you. That moment, or moments of silence can be very awkward and hard for you. You don't want to interrupt by going, No, but if you need more, Ryan, is that no, no, no, no, no, no, you the next person to talk is the donor. Let them sit back as much time as they need whatever your job now is to shut up and not say anything. And they will say something next, and they have like three paths they can follow the first path, the one you're hoping for is I'm going to write you that check right now. I love this project, not only I'm gonna write this check, I'm gonna tell my friends, I have to give us My name all over it, blah, blah, blah, you're hoping that will happen. The second scenario is they say, you know, I'm going to need a little more time to think. Now, if they go down that path, which is not unusual, then you still have, Oh, I'm sorry. For path number one, if they say they want to give close the deal. Find out when and how they want to give you the money, or the stocks or whatever. Make sure they understand your fiscal sponsor interface or the legalities, whatever. Get that all straight. If they go down the second path, which is maybe, then you still need to close you say, I understand completely. What information can I give you?

Do you need to talk to other people? How much time do you want? And the donor will say, you know, I'm really busy right now, how about two weeks? And you'll say fine? Should I call you? Should I email you? Or do you want me to come back? Should we set up an appointment, you must close the time and date that that maybe will get resolved. Okay. So remember that most of the time, if you've really done your homework, and you've done your relationship building, one of those first two scenarios is going to happen. But there is a third scenario, the one you'd all like you're unhappy about. And that is they say, you know, this project isn't for me. I just can't help you at this time. So you have to not take it personally, which is very difficult. And what you need to do is understand more about the rejection. Don't be mad about it. Accept it. Don't never, never argue about never, this is a big mistake. And I see filmmakers make this mistake all the time. They get rejected by a funder for instance, or call the funder up and say, How dare you?

Alex Ferrari 33:45
But you know who I am? You know, I

Morrie Warshawski 33:47
am this project should have never do that. So let's say they say no, then you plot it will say, Well, can you give me a little more information about your hesitancy or difficulty running this project? Just for my own information? And thank you for your time do you want to stay in? Can I keep sending information about the project? Or can I keep you on my mailing list? Something like that. And then you leave. Always, always follow up with a thank you note or thank you email for their time. Even if they say no. And that's the ask.

Alex Ferrari 34:28
And that is the very cool now in your book. You were talking about house parties. And I found that very interesting. What is the fundraising house party because when I think of house party, I think of the 90s and kid and play but that's just my generation. So what what kind of house parties are you talking about?

Morrie Warshawski 34:50
Well by this markets, it's the Bible on house parties. Okay, I'm I'm shocked that you don't know that house parties because they become really, really Popular. I'll tell you how I got into this to house party. Well, first of all the history of house parties goes back to politics. Politicians have been doing house parties since the days of Socrates, interesting. Oh, yeah, that's how they raised a lot of their money. But when I was working at the Bay Area video coalition, I felt met a filmmaker who was in their editing one day, and I said, How are you getting money for this project? She said, I have house parties, that you do what I asked for. And she explained to me, the root of it, besides the house parties, and then I got crazy about them because they work. If you do them, right, they always work. That's what I love about the house party. But there's a big provides on that is, you must do them, right. But very simply, people get invited to someone's home. And usually it's not your home. And they get asked for money, and they give money, and then they go home, you take the money with you. That's like, a real quick encapsulation. But

Alex Ferrari 36:09
what do you love? So what value are you providing for them at this house party? I'm assuming it's a party. So there's music and there's food and other things like that? Or you literally just it's a Tupperware party? And instead of selling Tupperware, you're getting money? How does that work?

Morrie Warshawski 36:25
Well, the first thing is, everyone who comes to the party knows that they are going to be asked for money. Important. Very important. It's a mistake to send out an invitation and not let people know they're going to be asking for money. That's a huge mistake. Okay. So the great thing about sending out an invitation that says to the person we're throwing, and it's usually got not coming from the filmmaker, it's coming from a friend of the filmic. Ideally, someone has already donated to the filmmaker, and they're inviting their friends. They're saying to their friends, here's a project I'm crazy about. I love this filmmaker, Alex, I'm going to have him over to my house, so that you can learn about about this project, bring your checkbook, your credit card, and cash. Right. So that's why it's important that you send out invitations to three or four times as many people as you'd like to have at the party. And typically like to have a party with 10 to 20 people. So you invite 80 people, but most of them don't want to come because you're gonna ask them for money. Well, the beauty of that is they're not coming to the party, and they were never going to give you money. Right? Exactly. You feel them up. And the corollary is the important corollary is, everyone who does come to the party knows that they're going to be asked for money. They're bringing their checkbook, they're bringing, they're bringing their credit cards. And that means if you do the party right correctly, 70% of the people who come will give you money.

Alex Ferrari 38:11
So how do you do it? Right? What is that? You said that a few times already? So what is the right way to do it?

Morrie Warshawski 38:18
Well, the first right way is you have to have a good host, person who's going to throw the party. The second right way is the host puts together a little invitation to have their friends. The third right way is you send out the right invitation, be it an invite, or, or a physical limitation. The fourth thing is the implementation must have an RSVP that allows the person to give you money without coming. So there are some people who just can't come but they want to donate before the party even happens, you're going to make money. Okay, so that's part A before you go to the party. The second part is the party itself. The big rule is it must be someone's domicile where they live. Not a factory, not a fancy office, not a restaurant, a house, an apartment, a tent, a yard, wherever the person lives. Because the significance of crossing the threshold into your private space is so strong. It can't be replicated in any other environment. It says to people right away, I'm really invested. And that's why I'm allowing you to come in my house and keep your shoes on get the floors dirty. Okay, so you want that to happen. You have to prepare the host. And the host has to be ready to at the very least, invite everyone and welcome Then when they show up, at the most, it's great if the host will make the ask that night and I'll talk about the rhythm of the party. So the party begins, people show up. And you must have some kind of food, but not a dinner. Not a sit down dinner, it's got to be food that people can put on a plate a week with their hands and walk around and mingle. And you have to be ready to juice the mingling. You might have alcoholic beverages, but not hard liquor. Right? depends on where you are and what the environment is and who's coming. But I would allow some alcohol but not hard liquor, maybe some wine, most hosts don't like to have red wine, because people are going to spill it. yada, yada, yada. So you want the food to be ready. Now, typically, the host will pay for the food, but sometimes you have to pay. Right? Okay, so whatever. So you got the food, you let people mingle, you allow enough time for for people to show up late. And Part two is you must have a place in the house prepare for people to sit down and have a formal presentation. So you gather all the people together in the room, and then you have a formal presentation. And there are three parts to the formal presentation. You have to do all this or you won't get the money. But if you did, right, right, the first part is the host welcomes everyone. The host has to say, I'm so excited, they have to show enthusiasm. And the other thing they must do is they must let people know that they've made a donation. Why would I want to donate if you haven't done it? Right, they can smell that a mile away. So they must let people know that that's part one is the host. The second part is you the filmmaker act do have a role in this. And you're the filmmaker have to get up in front of the audience. And you must have a very short demo reel. A sample of the project. And it's got to be like, pretty brief, like three to seven minutes as a nice timeframe. You don't want to show too much. But the key. My favorite, my ideal clip is one that makes people cry. Or one that brings up some kind of emotion. I guarantee if you can make people cry at a house party, you don't even need to ask for money, they'll start throwing. But if you don't have that kind of sample, at least something that teases people, tweaks their interest, gets them to want to see more.

Alex Ferrari 43:05
Yeah. And that could be still a stills presentation, something that is explaining, you know, concept, our interviews, if it's a documentary, things like just something that could get them like, you know, just deal with what their bill, if you will, whether,

Morrie Warshawski 43:24
yeah, and so the extreme is you haven't actually started shooting and all you have is like still a storyboard or whatever, right. And the other extreme is, you're getting ready for post production you actually do to have like a professional sample, something in between. But the point is, get them involved, get them engaged. And your next role is you have to open the floor for questions, people are going to want to ask you things you hope you're desiring that. So and the rule here is, you don't want it to go too long. But you want to let people have their say, and ask whatever they want. And then the next part is, you're going to have someone who's going to make the ask. That person has to be prepared or ready to do the ask. Ideally, it's the host. But let's say the host is uncomfortable asking their friends for money during you will say fine, who's coming to the party? Who can we get to make the ask that night. And again, it must be someone who is going to give you money either that night or has already given you money. And the other important thing is that person has to be credible with the crowd that's there that night. So that's why you would like a homogeneous group and not a heterogeneous group. And that's why you have a lot of different pass parties, because you don't want people in the room at different socio economic level. If you don't want someone in the room who could only give you 50 bucks next to someone who could give you $50,000, you have to make sure that the room is in the same confort zone of giving. It's really awkward if that's not true. And that will control the level of your ask that night, by the way. And, oh, the other thing you have to have ready is a card that people can fill out to give you money. And on that card, you'd like levels that are appropriate for the people that were there that night. But at any rate, the the next being important part of the house party is someone has to get stand up and ask for money. And they have to be very direct, not namby pamby and this is another big mistake that people make. They don't ask for money. They'll throw a party and just talk about the people see the pledge cards and get by the end of the day. I've seen that happen, doesn't work. Someone has to get up. Everybody knows why they're there. They have to get up and say on there, the person who decides when the talking period q&a is over, they get up and say, Alex, okay, I think that's enough talking, everybody here knows why we're here. If they don't already love your project, they should leave already. They're crazy. Look, you are all my friends. George, how long we known each other. Sam, thank you for coming in, I look, let's get real, this project is only going to get made and must get made. By the way. If we can raise $50,000 tonight, to get it to the next level. Let's do the math there. 20 people in here, we need to add $50,000. That's going to be what is that 5000. I can't do the math real quick. I am hoping I'm expecting each of you to give at least that much tonight. And if you can't, I want you to talk to me. Let me know why. Otherwise, you got a pledge card in front of you. We will take cash tonight. If you carry that much. We'll take your personal check, we'll definitely take credit cards, if you want to give us your stocks and bonds, we'll work out a way to do that. Please go to your heart. And then I want you to go to your checkbook and your pocket in your pocket book. And give as much as you can. Thank you for coming tonight. And then you got to be ready to take money you got to have you got to have pens and pencils, I went to a party once where there weren't enough pens or pencils for the pledge card. They lost money and pledge cards you have to be people have people ready with little baskets to take whatever. And then people mingle a little bit more The party is over, but the party is not over. Because there's one more important thing you must do. You have to send a thank you note to everyone. You have to be sure that you've sealed the deal for people who want to give, make that happen. And it might be an investment party or giving party a dinner party, whatever, that's ready. But the third thing and the very important thing is anyone who came but didn't give you money must be contact. And the ideal contact is from the host or the person who made the ask.

But I might have to be you. And it has to be very present pleasant, friendly call, like maybe a week to 10 days later saying thank you so much for coming to the party. Did you enjoy it? How did you feel about it? I noticed that we didn't get a pledge card back from you. My days ask, Are you intending to give? Right? If you do that, you will get 30% more money than you raise that evening. So if you got $10,000 in pledges that evening, you'll raise another 3000 with your phone calls. And that's it.

Alex Ferrari 49:01
It's It's It's a, it seems like a I mean, you're in there. I mean, this is the I mean, what you've just described, and especially from the hosts, like I expect all of you to do this, this and this. And it's you can't do that by yourself. You need a host you need someone who has an emotional connection with with the people in the room, who they trust and things like that. So it's not like a cold, a cold ass. It's a very warm, very, very warm ask. And if you do any other Yeah, and if you do multiple, you could do 234 or five of them, depending on the network of people that you have his friends. You could you could you could easily raise the money that you need. I mean, obviously depending on how big your budget is, but relatively speaking, you could definitely raise good I see that and you wrote what was the name of the book that you wrote about that?

Morrie Warshawski 49:53
Well, oddly enough, it's called the fundraising house party.

Alex Ferrari 49:57
I've really never I've never heard of this. I've I can't believe I've never heard of this concept of, because I mean, I've heard of candle parties, Tupperware parties, you know, all you know, makeup parties, all these kind of parties that you know, you go there knowing that they're going to sell you makeup or candles or Tupperware. But I never thought about it for fundraising, but I guess it works. And it makes perfect sense that politicians have been using it for years.

Morrie Warshawski 50:25
Yeah. And in fact, you know, I got an email about three months ago from Vivian Kleiman, filmmaker, an indie filmmaker, she just finished a really good documentary. And she, because of COVID, she started doing zoom parties, zoom house parties. So I would love to get the a little more about the details of it. But the long and the short of it is you still find a host. And they do a zoom meeting and make an ask over zoom.

Alex Ferrari 51:00
That's Yeah, did you set up a website for them to just here, click here and donate here. And I guess that's in the second edition, you'll be you'll do the second edition of that book. With zoom,

Morrie Warshawski 51:11
retires. Ready to take money automatically. And you do need a website that will take credit cards on home, I did not need to tell people this. But yeah, you need to be able to accept money electronically and over the internet. make it really easy for folks.

Alex Ferrari 51:30
Right? I mean, you can get a square image right then and there, or PayPal, swiper for credit cards at the party. But you should also have a website ready to accept credit card payments, you know, personal checks you could do and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, it's, again, you should have an LLC set up and bank account set up for that LLC to accept all this money. So it's not going directly to, you know, Alex?

Morrie Warshawski 51:56
Yeah, you know, the thing about being an indie filmmaker is you spend 80% of your time doing business.

Alex Ferrari 52:03
It's, you're absolutely right. And I always tell people, like, you know, you, this is the only art form where you spent three years to work for three months, at best case scenarios, to make the movie you want to do yeah, like to make your movie in a narrative scenario. Most independent films don't have the luxury of three months. And they have six weeks, if at all, you know, to make their movie so you work two years, just to get to that point. And then you're done shooting, and then it's just the post production process. And then you're back. It's a business selling it, distributing it marketing it. It's not like a it's not like painting or songwriting. You know, you can write a song today, if you're if you are painting or draw something today or paint something today. It is a it's a brutal art form. Because it's expensive. Yeah. It's one of the most expensive art forms on the planet. No, no, I

Morrie Warshawski 52:56
think after opera after opera, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 52:59
After opera and architecture.

Morrie Warshawski 53:02
Well, architecture is an art form. Yeah, yes. That's true. But it's out there in the top five, let's

Alex Ferrari 53:11
there's no question. Yeah. And you also need a lot of people, you can't you can't do it on your own. You need a lot of people to know,

Morrie Warshawski 53:18
you know, and that's very, very important because independent filmmakers No, no, no, no, no interdependent, you must, you must have two types of communities. One is a tight community right around you, that's going to help you, your team, very important. You don't want to be isolated. And then the other community is like the larger community, the ecology of groups, people, organizations, funders, bla bla bla, that want to be with you they want to have make the work in and use the work. amplify the work. That's why a big part of your job now is creating and nurturing your community.

Alex Ferrari 54:05
And can you before we go, can you tell me a little bit about your daughter's new film big Sonya because I saw the trailer it looks amazing, and that you use some of these techniques to raise money.

Morrie Warshawski 54:16
Oh, yeah. She's read my book many times. I was an advisor on the project. It's hilarious to see her doing documentary film because when she grew up as a kid, this is like the last thing on her mind. And her history of how she got into film is really, really interesting. But I would encourage people to go to her website about the film big Sonia SLN. And it's big Sonia calm learn about the film. I have many, many fundraising stories about big Sonia. Not only fundraising for pre production, production and post production, but fundraising for distribution community out Reach. She is still fundraising today. And the film came out three years ago. interest and it took seven years to fundraise and make the film. We're into like your 10 or 11 on this film, folks. Yeah, that's what it takes. Yeah, but I've got like dozens and dozens of stories. I'll tell you an interesting story recently was we're fundraising now for a community out What? Are you all familiar with the show or project? Yeah, of course, yeah. To show our project that USC Spielberg's project, they have this new thing they started a year ago, well, where they do intensive interviews with a survivor of the Holocaust. And they create a 3d and or hologram version of the person. So that later on, you can interact with them in real time. They asked them like 1000 questions they stored and computers, blah, blah, blah. So we're fundraising now to complete that project. So one of the things I tell my filmmakers is that marketing is fundraising. Public Relations is fundraising. So two weeks ago, an article showed up in a newspaper about this project. And a day later, Leah's fiscal sponsor in in Seattle, Oregon, the Northwest film project, called her up and said, Well, we just got this donation $4,000. Do you know who it's for? It was this woman who ran about the project got excited want to see that? But I wrote out a check immediately for it. So the kernel of that is there a lot of lessons in that, and they have to do with comportment marketing, pitching, the whole range of things. But you're always doing that you're always trying to be strategic and always trying to make it happen.

Alex Ferrari 56:56
And one last question, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Morrie Warshawski 57:04
Oh, self awareness? That's an easy one to answer. That's why comportment is the big word in my work now, self awareness, understanding who I am really, what my real core values are, why I'm doing this work. Whether or not I should be doing it is really important to me. And the other thing was, how do I come across to people? That was a big lesson for me to learn and it changed my work dramatically. Understanding that and it shapes everything.

Alex Ferrari 57:42
And where can people will buy your book shaking the money tree?

Morrie Warshawski 57:46
Oh, well, the best places to come to my website. warshawsky comm w AR sh awsk.com. You can buy them directly from me, and I'll even autograph them. Or of course, you can go to Amazon. So they're available on Amazon as well.

Alex Ferrari 58:07
Maury, thank you so much for being on the show. And thank you for writing this book. I think it's a book that many if not all filmmakers need to read at one point or another in their careers until obviously they're loaded and filthy rich and they can sell finance their things or, or just call up Mr. Spielberg and go Steve, I got a project can you fund it for me? until those days come? I think we're going to be needing these tools for a long time. So I appreciate you for you being on the show, my friend. Thank you.

Morrie Warshawski 58:34
My pleasure. Take care. Adios.

LINKS

  • Morrie Warshawski – Website
  • Shaking the Money Tree, 3rd Edition: The Art of Getting Grants and Donations for Film and Video – Amazon
  • The Fundraising Houseparty 2nd Edition: How to Party with a Purpose and Raise Money for Your Cause – Amazon

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage – Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. AudibleGet a Free Filmmaking or Screenwriting Audiobook
  3. Rev.com – $1.25 Closed Captions for Indie Filmmakers – Rev ($10 Off Your First Order)

IFH 403: Making Money & Cracking the Amazon Code for Self Distribution

Right-click here to download the MP3

Today on the show we have a filmmaker that was able to crack the Amazon code and actually make money self-distributing his low-budget film on the platform. His name is Ismael Gomez.

Ismael Gomez is a Cuban-American filmmaker. In 2009, he received an Artist Fellowship grant to pursue his B.A degree in Film Production. After completing his studies, he began to work as lead editor on several motion pictures and commercials for theatrical and TV releases. Some of his projects have been screened at Cannes, Starz Denver, Tribeca, and Miami International film festivals.

His film is Death of a Fool. 

A teenager and his dying grandfather conduct afterlife investigations in Miami when a mysterious man hires them to find the secret to immortality.

Ismael was able to generate close to $75,000 in rentals and sales on Amazon using about $9000 in Facebook Ads. In this conversation, I dig in deep on how he did this, his techniques, and how he used the Filmtrepreneur Method to create additional revenue outside of TVOD.

Enjoy my conversation with Ismael Gomez

Alex Ferrari 2:49
Now guys, today we have a success story as a story of TVOD, actually working with Amazon and cracking the code of Amazon and making money with an independent film. The filmmakers name is Ismael Gomez, and his film is called Death of a fool. And he was able to use $9,000 of Facebook ads to generate $72,000 in sales through teavana on Amazon. And in our conversation, I dig deep in his techniques, how he did it, what his ideas were to target his specific niche audience, and much, much more. So without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Ismael Gomez. I like to welcome him so his Ismael Gomez III How you doing?

Ismael Gomez 3:43
Good, Alex, thanks for having me on the show.

Alex Ferrari 3:46
Oh, thanks for reaching out, man. I appreciate it. Anytime there's a filmmaker who wants to talk about distribution and the truth behind self distribution numbers, raw data and all the other little warts and all good and bad. I'd like to talk to them. Because it's rare, like you said in your email. It's a rare thing. You there is not a lot of transparency out there. So before we get into that, how did you get into the film business?

Ismael Gomez 4:14
Well, you know, I was, so I was born in Cuba in Havana. And I was oh,

Alex Ferrari 4:23
I couldn't help it, man I have. It just comes out.

Ismael Gomez 4:28
So I was born and you know, I was born in Havana. And I grew up watching, you know, Disney Pixar movies. And actually, the first time I went to a theater was to see the Lion King and I was obsessed with it. Like when I came out of the theater, I was telling my mom and my dad like, this is what I want to make. And he started as a cartoon, you know, like animated films. And then my dad because he was very well connected in the artistic world. He would get me into the film festivals in Havana. And I saw Apocalypse Now when I was like nine See if you can imagine being nine years old and watching Apocalypse Now. So, you know, I got really obsessed with that and, and I had the opportunity when I came to the United States. So I came to live, immigrated to the United States with my mom, my dad was already here. And I came on a plane in 2009. And I went

Alex Ferrari 5:23
To everybody listening. Us Cubans were known for being good swimmers. To play my parents came on planes as well.

Ismael Gomez 5:33
Yeah. So I came here. And I always had the passion in Cuba, but I, you know, I finished high school, and Cuba. So when I got here, I went straight. After one year that I got all my papers and everything. I went to the New York Film Academy, and I started studying film, and it was a great experience, because they're very hands on, you know, so I really, I've never shot I mean, I've made home videos, but I was there shooting with extra film, like 16 millimeters at 35 millimeters. And it was a pretty cool experience. It was an amazing experience. And after that, I, I moved back to Florida, I got my bachelor's in film, because my whole family was here ready. And so after I graduated, I went back to New York, and I started working as an editor. So I realized a while I was in film school, I realized, all right, I don't think people hire directors. Not off the bat. Not very often. So directors end up always working on their stuff. So I have to develop a second skill, you know, and I also realized, for me in the editing is where really the magic happened. Like I would be able to save because my shootings were always super chaotic, chaotic. And when I got to the editing, I kind of like make things work a little bit. So I realized, like, this is where the magic happens. So I've got to learn this skill. So I got very, you know, well versed in Final Cut seven, rest and peace, and

Alex Ferrari 7:09
The recipes.

Ismael Gomez 7:11
And, and then you know, and then premiere when it came out in avid, and then Final Cut 10. And so I started editing and I started editing my friends, short films, my own stuff. And then I got my first feature film. And then I got my second one. And I ended up editing like, I don't know, like nine feature films already independent feature films. And yeah, so and then after that, I, I moved back, you know, my girlfriend was here, my family was here, I was up there by myself dealing with the winter, you know, my Caribbean flesh, she's not used to those.

Alex Ferrari 7:45
They don't like to fiddle with her so much.

Ismael Gomez 7:47
He couldn't deal with it. So I came back here. And I have this movie death of a fool. And I have division of my company, rabbit hole pictures. And at that time, moonlight came out. And I was like, I saw what Barry Jenkins did in Miami. And it was very inspiring. And I was like, you know, I can I can do this I can be, let's say a big fish in a small town. Right? I can start here. Try to make fantasy films, which I don't see actually when I was doing a lot of research when I made death of a fool and thinking about other fantasy films shot in Miami and I couldn't find anything. So I got very inspired. And I was like, You know what, I'm going to open the company here. I'm going to start making films here. And yeah, that's kind of like how I happened.

Alex Ferrari 8:39
So it's so funny because you you you've walked very similar path that I have, because I did the exact same thing. I was like, I'm going to be a director. But I see that no one's hiring me right now. Because I'm 20 whatever young. And I started getting into post and that's exactly and it's and I discovered the exact same thing recipes found that seven, but also just everything happens there. And that's sometimes I think a lot of filmmakers don't do that. They don't understand that you need to have a skill that pays you while you're chasing the dream while you're building those tools in your toolbox. That's extremely Sure. Well, you jumped on your first feature much patch took me 20 years to jump on my first feature, so you've jumped in much much quicker. So a lot of begging. Oh, I can imagine I can imagine. So tell me so tell me. Tell me about your film death of a fool.

Ismael Gomez 9:29
Okay, so death of a fool was actually based on a semester film that I did a nyfa the the Film Academy and so I have been writing it for two years. And I was already in Miami and I started submitting it to screenplay competitions. And then I ended up being semi finalists in like three of them and then quarterfinals in two of them and then blue cat it's a screenplay competition in LA We ended up winning it in 2008 2018. Joe, my co writer and I, so we both won the competition and they give you $10,000. It's the cash prize. So that was kind of like the beginning of the funding process of the film. So after we won blue cat, we ended up like talking to some investors that I have worked with in the past for other projects or other businesses that are that I was running. And, yeah, it just took a lot of convincing and, and really, in it also, I got very prepared in terms of, you know, not counting on Sundance and or, you know, the lottery, the lottery ticket, and really trying to think, how would I be able to recoup this money? You know, so we were able to bring a few investors on board, then I did, I would say, like, 30% of the financing myself. And yeah, we got everything together

Alex Ferrari 11:06
What was the budget?

Ismael Gomez 11:09
It ended up being, like, $103,000. So 100, 100,000, which was really challenging, because let me tell you this stuff that we pulled with $100,000, because

Alex Ferrari 11:21
It's a fantasy film,

Ismael Gomez 11:22
And you know, you got like, you have a magic fruit and you have like, like magical places, and you have it's like flashbacks, like the 70s. So there's a lot of crazy stuff. And yeah, but you know, I had an amazing team. That's what I can say the cinematographer, the producer, everyone was just so awesome. And that's the also the cool thing about shooting in Miami that not a lot of films have been shot here. So everyone was really excited about that, you know, people were willing to just work in give you good rates and all that to make the film happen.

Alex Ferrari 11:56
Yeah, that's exactly what happened with me. When I made my first film there. It was so excited just to be like, oh, someone's shooting. Let's Let's do this. You know, it's not bad boys. But we'll do it. Let's go. Which is really cool. Now, you when you made the fit, you finished the film. And I'm assuming you went down the the festival circuit and the distribution path. So tell me about what you felt. Did you do the festival circuit at all? What did you feel? Well, I I sent the film to Sundance, of course, because we all have to donate money to a reference retailer now.

Ismael Gomez 12:31
So I was like, you know, let me send it here. actually listen to my tog refer. Layla Kilburn. She was a she had been to Sundance like seven times, he even won with documentaries. So, you know, I sent the film to Sundance and I did. I think Sundance was the Film Fest, I had just finished it and I didn't want to sound like work in progress to film festivals, you know? So I sent it to Sundance and then you know, got the rejection letter. And around the time, I had a really tough call. This is the when we get into distribution, because then 2020 had just started, you know, and I had to wait probably till the summer when the film festivals were gonna open again. You know, like the fantasy film festival salsa like Fantasia. Yeah, Fantasia Fantastic Fest, you know, also, I was like, should I wait until the summer? Like waste six eight months and wait for this film festival? Or should I just launch? Do do a theatrical premiere in the Coral Gables the art cinema and launch the film? And on Amazon, or should I just wait for the film festival? So I really hate being passive. You know, and putting, like, hoping that someone else, you know, allows in by the way, I didn't I didn't even you know i i heard about the Coronavirus in China and all this. This was like in January, or February. And, and also I had an eye opening experience because I ended up going to Sundance with the co founder of rubber Hill pictures. One of my best friends, Larry. I told them, you know, we should go to Sundance even though we didn't get in. I feel that we hear so much about Sundance, and I've never been to Sundance, so we should go check it out. You know, and for me when I went there. And the eye opening experience that I had is that even people that I saw got into Sundance, were struggling to get a distribution deal. Oh, absolutely. And I saw I saw everyone hustling. And I'm like, okay, they made it here and they're still hustling and trying to get a distribution deal. I'm thinking they may get like, ripped off. So this is not even a guarantee, you know, so I think I might be better off off just distributing the film myself learning this process, I try to do my best and really be self reliant, you know? So So yeah, so I made the call and I told you know, I spoke to my, to the producer of the film. And I told her like, I think this is the way to go. And we had the screening. Here Coral Gables we it was completely sold out. And then two weeks later, because you know, it was still hot. And I I released the film on amazon video. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 15:32
No. Did you? Did you get some deals? Did you get some deals offered to? Yes, yes.

Ismael Gomez 15:37
So I spoke to a few. First of all, I saw all the episodes on indie film hustle about distribution, you know, and I wrote, like, I actually have a notepad and I've wrote every time that I had an insight or something that I didn't know about ever write it down and then revisit. You know,

Alex Ferrari 15:55
You were prepared. You were locked, locked loaded. When these guys came? I thought,

Ismael Gomez 16:00
Yeah. So they came, you know, they came trying to buy a few of them. I think a few of them have good intentions, I would say. But still, I was like, even though,

Alex Ferrari 16:13
What were the kind of deals you were getting, you know, don't say names, just kind of deals

Ismael Gomez 16:18
With sales agents, you know, I feel them wanting to wanted to charge me which I thought, I don't know, if you really think the film has potential and you can make some money. Why would you want to charge me? You know, upfront, I put, I guess, you know, they need to keep their business going and all that. But that, for me was a, you know, a red flag. I didn't want to, even though if you have good intentions, I didn't want to get into that because it was morning that I would use that I can use some Facebook ads, things like that, you know? And with distributors, they a lot of them didn't reply them. The ones that did, they had, like 15 year, you know, 15 year term contract. Yeah. And I was 15 years, like, you're gonna own my movie for 15 years. That's a long time with no money upfront. With no, no minimum guaranteed.

Alex Ferrari 17:09
And it was there any? Was there any marketing capital? Or? It was like

Ismael Gomez 17:13
100,000 $50,000 every year? It was. I was like, Alright, you're gonna spend $50,000 in my film every year, I guess, year they had that sunset. Yeah. And then and then you could you could, you know, you could, I was like, is this negotiable? And then there was said yes. And then Okay. And then they would negotiate and bring it down to 10 years. And you know, $20,000. And,

Alex Ferrari 17:40
But isn't that isn't that interesting that they said this a bunch of times that they throw out a worse deal to see if you bite and if you bite? Oh, good. I'm gonna screw you now. Yeah. And then if you want to negotiate, I'm just going to screw you a bit less scoring. At the end of the day, you're getting screwed.

Ismael Gomez 17:57
Yeah, it's kind of like they want to they want to stab you. Right? And they first put like a shotgun. You're like, Oh, shut down. That's really bad. And then they show you the knife. And so Okay, I guess a knife is not.

Alex Ferrari 18:09
Would you rather get your head blown off? Or just a little, a little stab in the back? It's just so so so. So then So okay, it's none of these. Obviously, none of these deals. After listening to everything I've said. You just said? No. If you wouldn't listen to all these podcasts, you might a bit Paulie. Yeah, probably. That's, that's, that's why I want that information to get out to as many as humanly possible, man. Yeah, it's a waste of me. Sure. What did they promise you? They promise you to get you on all the platforms, right? Yeah, we'll get you on all the platforms and somebody over at Netflix. So we'll pitch Netflix. I know somebody over at HBO, maybe I could get you an HBO deal. I guess I'm gonna Showtime, maybe we could do a paid cable deal. what's what's the special placement, well, then I get the special nice iTunes chart and all those goods. If you go with us, like if you go through an aggregator you're just going to be thrown in. But if you go with to get special placement on iTunes, and that whole scenario, it's it's so and it's getting worse. The predatory aspect of distribution is getting worse and worse, as everything starts to tighten, tighten around. So that's why I wanted to bring you on because you're pretty fresh. You're like this is happening within the last three or four months. Yeah, you read these off and

Ismael Gomez 19:26
Alright, so I had sorry, and even the ones that have good intentions, let's say they're still a business, you know, and they still need to survive

Alex Ferrari 19:35
Business markets.

Ismael Gomez 19:36
And if they have 10 films, and nine of them are performing better than mine, you know, they're gonna they're gonna sell those, they're going to pay more attention to those nine. It's not only that, it's also like I was put this analogy that it's a business right and if my film is a tangerine, let's say and people here buy watermelons. They will mark him Fill them as a watermelon to people who like watermelons, because they have to sell. And I don't want my Pete like, I want people who like tangerines to see my film, I don't care about people who like watermelons, because then that's where the bad reviews come and people, if I feel that I'm actually, you know, cheating, right, and I'm lying to people, because I made you think that this was one hell. And you came, saw my film pay for it, and now you're feeling happy. You know, and I understand that. So I that's, that was also for me, like, I wanted to have full control. You know, I'm a little bit creepy. So,

Alex Ferrari 20:35
Yah know, and obviously, so you're telling me that distributors might lie in trailers to get by the movie? I can't believe that, that seems so unlike. Yeah. Um, and that's the other thing that that filmmakers don't understand is when they do sign a deal with the distributor, unless it's in the contract, they have no control how that movie is presented. poster design trailer design. I mean, it's, I mean, I remember when I had my I had a short compilation, and a distributor picked it up, I was able to get it back from him. But he put on the cover some woman with a gun, what not? She wasn't even in the movie. It was it wasn't even the movie. I was like, what, what is it? What is this, and it's, it is a nature of what they're trying to do as the old model of doing things. So it's gonna be interesting to see how this is gonna keep going. So obviously, you decided that stuff, the traditional distribution was not going to be your path and your budget range makes it a good viable option for for self distribution. So tell me your journeys of self distribution and what and what's, what happened?

Ismael Gomez 21:47
So, you know, I started looking into how would I sell distribute, like, where you know, what platform I would use. So, you know, there was Vimeo, which obviously has an amazing, like, an amazing potential, because I think you keep, like, 90% of the revenues. And then there was Amazon. And then there was all the things like selling from your website, like gumroad, I think is called, you know, a bunch of those. But for me, just thinking as an audience, like, it's better, like people trust is a big thing, right? So people trust Amazon, people don't trust Vimeo or gumroad. Not a lot of people like 1% of the people so

Alex Ferrari 22:34
That movie going people, like people buying online products or courses or things like that, they might want to do gumroad and Vimeo, the filmmaker will understand who they are, but general public Well,

Ismael Gomez 22:44
yeah, so I was like, you know, Amazon is the best deal. And also, you know, even though I could have gone through an aggregator, right, um, I think I looked into film hub and bitmax. You know, I felt like, I don't want to sparse like, the attention. Like, I want to just have one place where I can send everyone and here's the film, watch it, which I also think if all the sales go there is going to help with the algorithm. And more people, they will promote her film to other people. Right. Right. So So I was like, you know, and I actually I did, I did a few polls on Facebook groups and stuff like that, where do you watch movies? And I would see, Amazon was always the top one. So I was like, okay, Amazon has to be and I thought of myself, I mean, I rent movies on Amazon. And so so yeah, so I chose Amazon. Which, you know, Amazon is amazing. It's great that they give the opportunities to filmmakers, you know, and I have spoken to them before it kind of it's kind of, you know, kind of sucks that they take 50% You know, I think I wish they would take less like like Vimeo, but you know, it is what it is you got to deal with.

Alex Ferrari 23:58
So first so for people to understand, so you they take 50% of your transactional?

Ismael Gomez 24:02
Yeah, like so transactional video. T VOD. You know, if you if you sell if someone buys a movie for $10.05 goes to Amazon and five goes to you. So they take 50% of them.

Alex Ferrari 24:15
Yeah. And you know what, I have the same. I mean, I self published my books through Amazon. And they're actually worse, worse than 50% sometimes. But the different that probably exposure. Yeah, you are the largest marketplace where everybody has their credit card, and everyone trusts everything. So a 5050 split might sound bad, but the amount of the amount of access you getting for that 50% is the only thing that makes sense for that scenario. But now if you would have signed the deal with a distributor than they would have taken a percentage of that. So at the end of the day, you might have 15% and now you might even get really 10%

Ismael Gomez 24:54
if you're not what I'm really curious about is like how much like how much Amazon I wonder if Amazon offers that same type of deal to big companies like Disney and Warner Brothers, if they give them 5050 or if they offer because I feel like, you know, a small businesses entrepreneur, the starting, they should offer better deals for us than Disney. But you know, that's that's not the way the game. So

Alex Ferrari 25:23
that's not the way the world works, but and we could have a whole episode talking about Amazon and how they treat filmmakers. But at the end of the day, they have opened up a marketplace that filmmakers, so let's take let's take Amazon off the table that they shut down into, like no more filmmakers. Yeah, that really, that really hurts a lot of a lot of businesses. So I'm really grateful. I think it's amazing. I think they're doing but I agree with you. It should be like 70 7030 is fair. 70 Yeah.

Ismael Gomez 25:51
70-30. I mean, I think it's amazing. I'm really grateful that I can do this stuff, you know, but if I have a basis in front of me, it would be something that I will bring up

Alex Ferrari 25:59
also also a Cuban brother. Yeah.

Ismael Gomez 26:05
So yeah, so I decided Amazon and then

Alex Ferrari 26:09
TVOD mostly right. Yeah,

Ismael Gomez 26:11
I personally, you know, I have seen a bunch of my friends gone through distribution and gone through Amazon too. And for me, something that I learned is to not undervalue your art. And this is something that I learned actually in the theatrical screening. So when I had the premiere of Coral Gables, we sold out the whole screening, and I actually brought some merchandise. And I remember, you know, it was like this, my cousin who's an artist made like this cheap printed poster, and like this wooden kind of like frame, and it was really beautiful. And we only made like, 20. And I was thinking, you know, I'm not gonna make too many, and we're gonna sell them for 20 bucks or whatever. Because, you know, not a lot of people gonna buy it and stuff. And like, we got there. We screened the movie. And right, when people came out, it got sold out in like, literally in one minute. And people want to like, we want more, we want more. And I was like, Oh, my God, I should have brought this more. Like, should we make more, you know, and the screening will sold out? Like, there were like, let's,

Alex Ferrari 27:17
let's talk numbers. So let's talk numbers on that screening. So you rent it out the theater, or was it a split?

Ismael Gomez 27:22
I for wall, the screening, so I ended up? So what are the costs? It was like, so they do by the hour, so it was like 250 an hour, and I ended up doing three hours. So it was like 750. And yeah, I did. I did like a q&a afterwards with the the cast?

Alex Ferrari 27:41
And how much? And how much did you end ticket? sales?

Ismael Gomez 27:45
Yeah, so I ended up using event rights. Again, for control, you know, I put the price on the tickets, everything. And between the tickets, and the merchandise I ended up making, like 13 1400 bucks. So it was a good day.

Alex Ferrari 28:02
Your, your profit, your profit, and about the merge how much the merchant take you over?

Ismael Gomez 28:06
Well, that's what the merchant was like. The tickets were like, 1100 and the merchant was like, 300. So combined, they were like, 1400 you know, today. Yeah. And I thought of I mean, I thought like, you know, I can't keep doing theatrical in Florida, South Florida, maybe, you know, do like five or 10 more of these, you know, um, but then I ended up like, two weeks after on February 20, I launched the film on Amazon. So the first thing that I did was Oh, so talking about Amazon for me, learning from that experience. I was like, you know, I'm gonna put my film for sale first. So you can only buy it for like only purchase option,

Alex Ferrari 28:53
and no rental.

Ismael Gomez 28:55
Just strictly because I knew the people that just seen the movie. We're going straight to get on T ball and we're going to rent it you know, there was a lot of people I got older emails that were waiting. So I went straight to T VOD. I think I put like 1499 was the first price that I did. And I put no rentals like the first week like the first 10 days because I knew it was going to be hot you know, those people were going to come and buy the movie. So I did that I put it for purchase option only. I get into any Oh, so I got a lot of you know, newspapers radio everywhere you know talking about the premier Coral Gables like local news. And and then a lot of social media and over Facebook and Instagram. And then I ended up just putting the purchase option for those 10 first day so and then only the let's say the warm audience the loyal audience right the true fans came those, those first 10 They purchased the movie. I can't remember the exact number of how many people you know, but I was. While that was happening, I've started learning Facebook ads, I already had, like ran Facebook ads in the past and Instagram, with some other businesses that I had in the past and also with the with rabbit hole on Instagram, but I hire someone to pretty much kind of teach me, like all the ins and outs, you know, all the tricks and little things. And even though you I thought that I knew a lot like this person really taught me a bunch of stuff that I was like, oh, wow, that's how it works. Okay.

Alex Ferrari 30:37
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Ismael Gomez 30:47
So, so that gave me a lot of insights. And I slowly started using Facebook ads and Instagram ads. And for me, what I think has worked so far, which I told you in the email, like, I feel that a lot of people always want to like, I want my film to be seen as many you know that many people as possible, see my film, right? And I found that's a big mistake. I mean, if they could see it for free, of course, try as many people as you can. But when you have to pay for the Facebook ads, you have to make sure that the person that watches the film, right though the trailer, the teaser, they're really, you know, they trust the brand. And if they don't know the brand, you know, why will they click to watch the movie? So for me, the name Miami, right was the that trust. So, for example, when I was running ads, I realized the copy that would get the most, let's say engagement was when I would put like a you know, Miami releases new mystical adventure, a new fantasy film, because I I thought if I put like rabbit hole pictures releases a new, you know, Mr. They're like, Who's rabbit hole pictures. But when you put Miami people somehow in their heads, that's what I'm guessing they're guessing like, Oh, so Miami, it's kind of like, made this film like the city itself. You know, it's it's made in Miami, so then I only targeted like 25 mile radios, racism and miamian. And that started getting you know, a lot of attraction, then, you know, a lot of experimenting, I think you have to do a lot of testing. Like a lot. Like, you know, I had a teaser on the one minute I had a trailer, which was a minute and 40 I had pictures. You know, I have different copywriting. And also, you have to get this is a trick that I learned also that you have to have social proof before you send out. So when I would first create the ad, I'd have like my small group of you know, friends and family that I will send it to them and be like, okay, like this comment that you saw that you love that or whatever. So when the advertisement will go out, right? You have social proof, someone sees and they're like, oh, there's people coming to you. There's people liking it. Let me check it out. Right. And so what I started doing also the strategy was I would do video views. So it's one of the options when you run Facebook ads. At first I started doing traffic, which was kind of like a mistake, but you the traffic strategies pretty much Facebook finds people that would click on the ad and would go to the website where you send them. But by doing video views, Facebook pretty much finds people that usually watch videos, like they watch the most percentage, let's say videos. So I started using the video ads, and that's sort of getting better results. And people will still click on it and go to the website. Right? And then I would do video views Monday through Friday, and then Saturday and Sunday I will do a reach strategy, Facebook ad, which I would say okay, so for Monday through Friday, I do this video views. And then Saturday, Sunday, I create an audience that everyone who watched the video from Monday through Friday 95% of like people who watched 95% of my videos right? I would make that an audience Facebook would find all those people create a custom audience and then on Saturday and Sunday I would just target those people again and with a reach strategy and be like okay, now reach as many people as you can within this parameter that I just put that they're ready a warm audience cuz they saw the teaser and find them and show them again you know, the trailer so that will bring that will bring really good

Alex Ferrari 34:57
You're using a you're using this based off of a 14.99 price point not that I started

Ismael Gomez 35:03
Yah when I started doing Facebook ads, I already had the rental option. So I actually brought it down to 9999 and 599. So I started seeing you know, what most of the rentals will be on Amazon and I saw a bunch of like new releases were not 599 for. So I put a 599. And actually, this was really funny because you have to you have to test things out. You have to just don't be afraid of like, sometimes people want to be tooled, like logical. And you think of like, Oh, my films, an indie film, who would rent it who would pay 599. And a lot of people don't know, you know, like normal audiences. They don't know. They just see. They just see a film and it's a cool trailer, a cool poster. Maybe they don't know the actors, but the genre itself, right, since it's a fantasy kind of mystical supernatural film, the genre itself will sell the film and if they connect with Miami, they will sell it and actually, I did a crazy thing for like a week. I didn't make a profit, but I broke even. But when the whole Coronavirus hit, they started doing this whole theatrical premieres for 90 9099. So actually up for a week, I removed everything that I put it for 1999. I was like, You know what, maybe people will confuse me with like Disney. And like any, like, the invisible man that was also coming out during that time. And, and like, I don't know, like, 10 people bought it, like 10 people bought it. And you know, it cost me a lot in Facebook ads. So I kind of like I ended up breaking even. So I was like, you know, I know that I can find more people, but it will cost me more. So let me let me just bring it back to to a different price. And I like what I had it before, but it was it was it was a you know, an interesting experience seeing that they were actually someone be willing to pay 1999 for the film, just like they would pay for any of those big studio films, you know.

Alex Ferrari 37:02
So it's not let me ask you in regards to the facebook, facebook ads, and Instagram ads, a lot of times I found that filmmakers who spend a lot of money on those, the ROI doesn't make sense to return on investment because they they're either not optimizing properly or their their offer is just too low of price, like you're talking about 99 cents, and when 99 to 9399, you've got to get volume, you know, so if you spend $5 to get a 199 rental, that's not business. So how did you make it work?

Ismael Gomez 37:33
Well, yeah, I mean, I kept the price of 599, you know, good rental, and purchase a 999. So I knew that every time there will be a sale, I will make pretty much $3. Right? So from 599 50%. So I knew that Okay, I have to make under, you know, under $3. And so I would make sure and this is really hard to what happens with Amazon is really hard to track the sales that come from the Facebook ads, because Amazon doesn't give you the information. Right? Amazon keeps all the data for them.

Alex Ferrari 38:13
So you have no so you can't do a facebook pixel with it.

Ismael Gomez 38:17
with Amazon, no, you can't because it's on the Amazon page, right? So pixel that right? They're not gonna let you pixel that. So you could I couldn't do a pixel. So it was, but what happens is that say, like people what I'm guessing like people, a lot of times they try many strategies at the same, like, what I would do is say I'm going to stick with one strategy one week to see the results of that week, right? And then I will see, okay, so this week, I spent this much. And this much came in. And you know, I wasn't doing anything else. And I have kind of the clicks on the Facebook ads. And I saw that, you know, every 25 cents, someone was clicking on the ad. So I started as kind of like comparing the numbers, and then after one week, I would switch to a different strategy. And that way, you know, I would kind of like know what strategy worked the most. But again, for me, it was all about that, like you have to know your audience, you know, and, for example, I also thought even though the film has a, let's say, the film is about a grandson, the grandfather, right? They're like afterlife investigators. So there is a younger audience and there's an older audience. And for me, I focused mostly on the older audience because they have money. Number one, you know, younger audiences I say it you know, for my sister they don't like to pay for stuff they want just free content, you know, cuz I mean, you know, they grew up on YouTube and even I sometimes they struggle like oh, should I pay it? Should I really rent this movie or Should I wait until it comes out on Netflix or any? You know? So it's that's just the subscription mode has changed, you know, people's mentality when it comes to that, right? So I was like, I have to focus on the older audience because they're the ones that are really going to pay for this, right. And most of the time, maybe they're bringing their children you know, their grandchildren, whatever, to watch the movie. Now the problem with the also have to think about the downsides, like the problem with the older audiences so so they don't leave a lot of reviews, right? Older people don't go on Amazon and start reviewing, you know, like, Oh, I love to film or whatever. And which actually, you know, the reviews is such a tricky game, because, you know, mostly like, people who only have negative things to say are the ones that go and review. Like you watch the world that is like this was the best movie ever. And you don't go on like IMDb or Rotten Tomatoes, and you don't review it. You're like, this was amazing. But then, you know, those pesky haters, negative people, the trolls, they just go there and start like, Oh, this was awful, you know, but it is what it is. But then I tried to like, you know, if I saw that someone watched the movie or tagged the trailer, or the post or something, I've messaged them, like, please, if you liked the movie, leave us a review on Amazon because it can help you know. So but it was a combination, Alex of of a lot of like, work on my site. I did, I did a lot of like, say, you know, guerilla marketing myself with you know, on Instagram, I, for example, the Coral Gables art cinema, I went on Instagram, and I saw you know, that they had 8000 followers. So I will go to each one of those followers, and literally messaged him, like, Hey, where am I am film company, we just make this film. If you like, you know, this type of genre go check it out. Literally every day, I would message onto like, Instagram blocked pretty much like you exceeded like your limit for today. So, you know, so it was it was a combination of things, you know, and like being on the Miami Herald on the newspaper, also, you know, brought sales and then just combining all that with Facebook, Instagram, and, and just doing a lot of work. And also, like I told you trying a lot of different content people, sometimes you create, we create a trailer and that's it. Like they market everything without trailer. Like, you know, I have Trailer Teaser short clips, like I least like out of my like 30 different types of like assets, let's say

Alex Ferrari 42:39
Right now. The the thing that's fascinating, as well as that you decided to focus on your local regional market, which is something that most filmmakers Don't think about because they're like, Oh, it's just the local, I need to be big. I need the world to see my movie I, I need to be as big as Terran to Dino and Nolan. I need to do that, where you focus on the regional, which is extremely powerful. That's a much warmer audience. If I can take your tournament, it's a much warmer audience. And a lot of people will just support because you're a local boy and Miami's not a small town either know, it's some big city, it's one city, it's one of the big in the US. Absolutely. So but even with that, you were still able to generate interest and revenue from that. So that's, that's a really great way of doing it.

Ismael Gomez 43:32
And that's not you know, that's also like, you know, this was like, I at the same time, while I was in post production, you know, I really studied a lot of like marketing, you know, like Seth Godin. Sure. Yeah, you know, the purple cow and there's another guy called Roy Sutherland he's from London you know, and really started marketing and, and try to learn as much as possible and one of the ideas is like, how, you know how ideas like spread, right and everything starts small like if you think about Facebook, how did Facebook start Facebook started in Harvard. And then it started with only Ivy League's right. And then once they got the ivy League's when people see something that they like, they will tell their friends and the friends will tell the friends and that's how things spread. So I was like, I'm only going to focus in Miami and then from there on, actually, later on, I started seeing there were some sales in the UK where I was doing no marketing, and which was really interesting. I was like, I don't know how people in the UK are watching this. But I guess they're just like because they see as an American movie. They're they're watching it but you know, I really focus just a local and make like I would target Miami 25 miles radius, right. And I will say people who liked Pixar, Disney, Harry Potter, you know, films that we've kind of had the same tone to my film. Um, and then I would also do besides that, and would narrow down down the audience that they would also purchase on amazon.com, which is pretty much everyone, but you know, but that would really put it, like, just find those people that have purchased on Amazon, which you know, that, like, they have Amazon Instant Video, whatever. And they like these type of films are similar.

Alex Ferrari 45:25
Now what? So let's get some numbers, if you don't mind, what are the returns of all of this work? And how much revenue Have you generated? With off of Amazon?

Ismael Gomez 45:35
So Amazon has been like, a $36,000 which That's insane. Which is, I mean, when you really think about it was 72 you know, but that's 36. To you. 36. To me, yeah. 30. So

Alex Ferrari 45:53
you generated 72,000 gross, off of this technique off of what you're doing. In your in your $100,000? Yeah, indie with no stars attached. And a unique genre being like fantasies, not, you know, it's, it's, there's less, there's less sharks, or less blood in that water, it's a little bit more blue ocean, if the fish is better in your area. So it's a niche. It's a niche. It's a large niche, but it's a niche. So you've been able to generate, and then how much does that cost you?

Ismael Gomez 46:27
And then yeah, and then $9,000, in marketing around $9,000. So far, so that profit ends up being like, what 27 plus the one I made in the theatrical premiere. So

Alex Ferrari 46:40
I don't know about I don't know about you, but I will spend $9,000 every day to get 27,000 Oh, yeah. All day, I'll just continue to feed that beast. So it's fascinating. You're one of the few heard of, you're making it work. Now you have a very, there's a lot of unique elements, like in every project, like and you mentioned range 15, in your email, that was a unique set of circumstances in a unique time period, every movie is going to be a little bit different, like your movie might be hitting at the right time with the right mood that

Ismael Gomez 47:16
Also helps in you know, the I mean, the whole vacation that everyone was stuck home, you know, stuck at home,

Alex Ferrari 47:22
looking for new fresh content, and then you just happen to be fresh content. I also know how to market it. Because I've done my homework, I've done my research. And I want you to I want to I want you to tell all the filmmakers out there, please, because I've been preaching this for the longest time that filmmakers need to understand marketing, they need to educate themselves on the distribution, process itself distribution process all the non sexy, because everything you're talking about is not sexy. It's not as sexy as the new Alexa with a new cook lens. Yeah, you know, the techno crane that I'm going to work on, and it's not the sexy stuff. Can you please tell the audience the value that you have found by doing that deep dive into marketing? Because obviously it's working?

Ismael Gomez 48:06
Yeah, I mean, I will tell you this, this is how I think about it. If you know how to market, if you know how to distribute, if you know how to sell anything, then you can make anything. Right? It's not like you make something and then like, how am I going to sell this? It's like learn how to sell things. Like I think of like Steve Jobs, which I think is once one of the greatest marketers ever, right? How he created apple and all those things, and he would find a how to like, think about it, I help people pay six times more for an iPhone, which is pretty much does the same as a as an Android, you know, an LG, like,

Alex Ferrari 48:48
It's just not as pretty

Ismael Gomez 48:49
Its not as good. And it's the brand because you grew the brand change by he connected with a certain type of appeal. And for me was like I thought about, like, you know, I have because people just like to make things that you know, as an artist, you just want to think about the creative process, but then you end up being you know, at the mercy of like, you know, distributor and sometimes you will find a good distributor but like, even if you have a good distributor, wouldn't you want to know how that works? And they might not even you, I mean if you know your audience, if you know your movie, your input might be, you know, so valuable for them that might help even with the sales. So for me, it's like you have to learn, you know, again, like I was recommend Seth Godin. Ma all his YouTube videos. He also has a course that I took online. It's called the seven the marketing seminar. Roy solid land from from Great Britain. You know, Gary Vee Gary Vee. It's amazing. Yeah. You know, he's actually doing tea with Gary Every morning at 9am I thought, yeah, he's, he's pretty cool. He's got a bunch of good stuff, you know, and and yeah, and of watching the film, hustle all the episodes about distribution, you know, try to learn as much as you can, because that's the only way that you can be self reliant and, and not depend, again on the lottery ticket of getting into Sundance and, and I also thought about that I was telling Larry the my friend, the co founder, I told him like, you know, like, I think of Disney, okay, there's so successful, but I think of Disney. I think of like, you know, Warner Brothers, they don't go to no film festivals, they don't care about film festivals. They go straight to the audience, why should we? And I love film festivals, I have nothing against them. Right, but you playing by the rules? So why should we be like waiting? I was I will keep some minutes of Film Festival. But we shouldn't be waiting for that to be our strategy. We should be just getting straight to the audience, you know? So So yeah. So that's that's it.

Alex Ferrari 51:03
It's it's an inspiring story. But I really appreciate it, you've been able to do the numbers that you've talked about, which is that no one's getting rich, you're not getting you're not you're rolling around in it. But it's a you're building a business, you're saying,

Ismael Gomez 51:17
Pay my investors that that's the most important thing now that I'll be able to pay my investors, you know, that I can talk again, for my second feature film that I want, you know, so it also creates that, you know, trust, which is really important, and I'm building my audience as well, people who already saw the movie and liked it. And, you know, saw the company in Miami, so

Alex Ferrari 51:37
I just thinking just thinking for listening to your story, I think you could definitely benefit from reading Rise of the film entrepreneur, I think your head's gonna explode. For sure, if I may do a self plug. No, I think there's a lot of I think you're leaving a lot of money on the table. Honestly, with this, but you're doing fantastic. By the way, you're doing better than 99.5% of filmmakers I talked to. So you're doing extremely well. But I think you could even do, you could take it to the next level. But I'm really, you know, I'm really excited that you are good example of what how filmmakers can make money on Amazon during COVID. This is all happening. This is all happening during COVID. And what are your plans now? Because you know, you did this all t VOD, which is something that unless you know how to drive traffic t VOD is a lost cause. Unless you can drive check traffic and target an audience or have an audience to bring along with you.

Ismael Gomez 52:33
Yeah, I mean, I'm gonna keep you know, sometimes the the sales are down. Sometimes they go up. It's a little bit you know, but I'll keep investing a little I think I may expand now to Florida. Try to expand to Orlando Tampa, you know, but yeah, I'm gonna keep in. I actually put, you know, I found the right spot. Now I have the movie for 299 and 1499. Because I feel there's a actually I feel that somehow I'm getting sales with a marketing sometimes I think Amazon is promoting the movie itself. Sure. I brought money for them. So I guess the, the algorithm or whatever. But I would tell this, also going back to the whole distributing and stuff like for me, I would never put my movie for free. That's just like,

Alex Ferrari 53:24
So your not, we're gonna put it it's about like Amazon Prime.

Ismael Gomez 53:26
And I see I would I would suggest to everyone, I mean, put 99 cents, you know, like, that's, that's an okay price. If you have a movie they unless, unless you really don't care about recouping your money because it was your own money or something and you just want to get people to see your film. And in that case, I mean, you know, you can also put it on YouTube, right? If that's your strength, but if you really have to make money to pay investors to recoup some money, forget about as VOD, like, you're not going to make a lot of money. Unless maybe you have it on. I don't know to be like a bought at other places, but just put it

Alex Ferrari 54:04
AVOD AVOD at a certain point when you're when your sales have gone down to a point because like nobody really makes a whole lot of money on the S VOD Amazon platform anymore. That's pretty much gone. But AVOD, as we speak today is a re I've seen the numbers. I mean, there's 10s of 1000s of dollars being made by certain films in certain genres. So there is potential there, but absolutely milk this cow for as long as you can. AVOD could wait, it can wait a year. It could wait two years before before you go to AVOD.

Ismael Gomez 54:36
Sorry, I forgot to mention that I actually I put the film also on film hub now, as as VOD because the rest of like other English speaking countries don't have T bot. So I couldn't rabbithole pictures. You know, I couldn't put it on the rest of like Latin America have to say also because I do have some Hispanic stars that are well known in Latin America. So and I have the movie subtitles. Oh, that was something that actually bothered me. from Amazon, that they didn't let me they didn't let me put Spanish subtitles. They don't have that option, which I thought like you're missing out on like

Alex Ferrari 55:12
they're they can't deal with that kind of complexity from the masses, they can deal with that complexity from distributors who handle 234 100 movies. And they allow that situation. It's a completely different business.

Ismael Gomez 55:25
Like if you go and actually no, no, like Amazon doesn't doesn't allow Spanish subtitles on any film doesn't matter. Oh, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 55:33
Now they stopped it. Yeah, you're right. They did stop the subtitling and now it has to be I think

Ismael Gomez 55:38
it's so I don't know if it's a legal issue or what but I told him, like, Netflix has been doing this for like, years. And like, if you really want to compete, like you're missing on, like, let you know, the whole like Hispanic audience in the United States that would rather, you know, like, my, a lot of my family members, you know, they when I actually put the movie with subtitles, because they understand English, but you know, you will miss a lot of little details, not the same reading in your first language, you know, so, yeah, that was one thing, but through film hub, that now I'm putting it on Latin America.

Alex Ferrari 56:10
But have you had anything from them yet?

Ismael Gomez 56:12
Nothing come in yet? No, nothing. It's been recent. It's been recent. I haven't done any marketing also out there. So I'm just letting it to see, you know,

Alex Ferrari 56:23
See what happens well, keep us keep us updated on the film hub thing I'm really curious to see. I haven't heard a lot of success stories from film hub, meaning that filmmakers actually making a lot of money. So I'm curious to see, in theory, he sounds great in the in the in the marketplace. Sounds great. But I'm curious to see real hard numbers come in. But man, you're an inspiration, brother. Without question, I'm going to ask you a few questions asked all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Ismael Gomez 56:56
Um, I would say focus on providing value to others, which is something that, you know, me as a director, when I started, I, a lot of my friends now that work with me had a really hard time working with me because I was sort of a dictator. And it was always like, you know, I would always think of my movie. And this needs to be perfect, because it's my film and my name is on is and I'm the director. And then that was just bring a lot of suffering, really, because I will be so frustrated and stuff. And when I kind of switched their mentality and started thinking about a be, you know, a provider value service to others to the crew, I want to, to really try to have everyone in the crew to reach their maximum potential in the cast, I want the actors to do the best performance that they can I want the DP to have the best images. And I'm just the catalyst for these people to really push them hard, so they can get there, you know, and also for the audience's going to watch my movie, it's not like watch my film is like, how can I really make your time worth that you can spend an hour and a half watching my movie, and you're gonna have a lot of fun. So I just kind of like switching that mentality of, you know, providing value to others in it really. You can tell when you work with someone who's just there for a paycheck, you know? Yeah, I don't I don't like working with those type of people. I feel I can see when there's someone there who obviously I want to pay everyone. And I think everyone should get paid, but they're there because they care about their craft more than a paycheck, you know?

Alex Ferrari 58:41
So I would say no. And what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Ismael Gomez 58:50
On film, or in life I would say, Don't take it personal. That's it. Don't take don't take film reviews personally. You don't know who that person is. If they like, if they like happy endings, and you had a sad ending, of course, they're gonna hate your movie. You know, they had don't take personal the film projects, the film festival rejections. Maybe they didn't even watch your film. Maybe that person had a bad day. God knows. Right? Don't take it personal. It's it doesn't. It doesn't say anything about the quality of your craft and all of your film. So that's it, you know?

Alex Ferrari 59:36
And then what are three of your favorite films of all time?

Ismael Gomez 59:42
That's a tough question.

Alex Ferrari 59:44
Three that come to your head right now?

Ismael Gomez 59:45
Well, I mean, definitely The Lion King, you know, as a child and in Cuba, I would say, I think of films in like different stages of my life. So I would say definitely as a child The Lion King and the gold rush from Chaplin.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:03
Yeah

Ismael Gomez 1:00:05
Yeah. It's a fun movie. I always loved watching the movie now, as a grown up, I think, you know, I've seen brilliant films, you know, a lot of brilliant films, but I feel that films that let's say that I really saw and were like, really changed my perspective on what a movie could be. That I was like, I've never seen anything like this, I would say the tree of life from Terrence Malick and synecdoche, New York from Charlie Kaufman. Which is, which is really funny because I see Kaufman, which I think in my opinion, Jesus, he's the most original writer and creator like in Hollywood, when it comes to film. I think his stories are the most original. And I see him struggling to make to get financing and I'm like, I mean, if Kaufman is like going through this, I'm okay. You know? Yeah, it's fine.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:05
Exactly. Now, where can people find you your movie and you work?

Ismael Gomez 1:01:09
Well, the movies on Amazon, you know, Amazon Video and they can find us on you know, rabbit hole pictures on Instagram. rabbitholepictures.com. Rabbit Hole pictures on Facebook everywhere. Rabbit Hole.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:25
Yeah, it's my thank you so much for being on the show, brother to you. You're an inspiration. I'm glad to highlight a success story, you know, on Amazon in today's world, and teavana and everything else. So thank you so much for coming on and being so raw and honest with your with your numbers in your experience, man. Thank you, brother.

Ismael Gomez 1:01:42
Thank you, Alex. I hope this really helps a lot of filmmakers out there and you know, keep hustling.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:50
You could hear at the end that we finished that interview with a thunderous applause back when that lightning strike happened. Wonderful Miami thunderstorms. Oh, so well. I want to thank is my child for coming to show and dropping those knowledge bombs on the tribe and inspiring filmmakers that you can make money on Amazon and you can make money on TVOD, but it takes work. And you really need to understand what you're doing and is my is an amazing example of that. If you want to get links to anything we talked about in this episode, including watching his film, Death of a fool, please head over to the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com/403. And thank you all for signing up for my new podcast inside the screenwriters mind a screen writing archive of the best of the IFH Podcast Network. If you want to check it out, and you've not signed up yet for it or subscribe for it yet, head over to screenwriters mind.com thank you again for listening guys. As always, keep that also going. Keep that dream alive. Stay safe out there. And I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 294: All Filmmakers are Marketers – Branding, Marketing & Social Media

Right-click here to download the MP3

Today I’m talking about marketing! Yup, marketing. If you, as indie filmmakers, do not understand branding, marketing, and social media YOU WILL NOT MAKE IT IN THE BUSINESS. I really want to get through to you guys. I’ve been consulting more and more filmmakers lately and I see there is a MAJOR disconnect between filmmakers and understanding the basics of branding (whether personal, company, or project), marketing, and social media.

In this episode I’ll be discussing:

  • Tribe or Audience Building
  • Brand Marketing vs. Directing Marketing
  • Understanding your smallest viable audience
  • Brand Building
  • Building Your Personal Brand
  • Discovering how you can love the GRIND or your journey
  • Choosing platforms to build your brand
  • Content creation

Also below are six books that will help you along your path to understanding these basic concepts. I truly hope that you find value in this episode. The understanding, at a basic level, of branding, marketing, and social media is not a luxury but a necessity in today’s and tomorrow’s world.  Don’t get left behind. I want every single #IFHTribe member to make there dream come true, to build a better life for themselves and to love their own journey towards their goals.

Warning: this episode might make you think about stuff so beware! Enjoy and keep on hustling.

Alex Ferrari 0:01
So guys, today on the show, I want to talk about this concept that all filmmakers are marketers. And I know that sounds very intimidating to a lot of you that like I'm not a marketer, I'm just a filmmaker, I want to prove something to you guys, that if you've ever posted anything on social media, if you've ever tried to make a poster for your film, or a trailer for your film, or boost something on Facebook, or on Twitter or on Instagram to get people to watch what you're doing, I hate to break it to you guys, but you are marketers. And once you start understanding and accepting that, that you have the power, like never before in history to reach a mass audience to show people what you can do. As filmmakers, as artists, as screenwriters. You have the power at your fingertips literally on your phones, you can start doing this instantly. Now I want to talk a little bit about marketing, and about what filmmakers could do to help their marketing abilities and get their reach out there more. Now, I've talked about this on the show before and I think a lot of people a lot of filmmakers make mistakes when it comes to marketing regarding like how to get their movie out there. First of all, by picking the product or picking the the art that they're going to put out there and then trying to reach an audience for it. I had an entire episode about how you niche down that is the the future of independent filmmaking is to niche niche niche niche down niche down niche down, as I say the riches are in the niches, you know, because you want to be able to create a product that you can hit a the smallest viable audience for and let me explain what the smallest viable audience is. You don't need millions upon millions of people to to like what you're doing to buy what you're doing to rent a film of yours to read a book that you write, or whatever you might be putting out there in the world, you need the smallest viable audience. And when I mean that is a niche audience, someone who's going to be interested in what you're doing. If you're making a horror movie, and it's a very broad horror movie, finding that smallest viable audience is going to be difficult because you're going to try to do brand marketing, as opposed to direct marketing. Now brand marketing is what the studio's do brand marketing is spending $200 million to put the Justice League movie out on every billboard banner, ad television, ads, commercials, YouTube everywhere you can see, as you get closer and closer to the release date, you become aware of the film that they're trying to promote this in this case would be justice leaked, the only way they can find out if any of this marketing that they did made any sort of impact is on the opening box office receipts. That is the way they measure their analytics to see what worked, what didn't work, because when you put up a billboard, or buy a magazine ad, like old traditional media, you have no idea if one person saw that ad, and then impact got impacted by that, to do something about it, or millions did, you just don't know. But when you're the studio, you have that that flexibility because you have obscene amounts of money to put into it. So that's called brand marketing, just like Coca Cola puts out just tons and tons of brand awareness, they spent millions upon millions of dollars, over the course of the last decades, to make sure that everybody in the planet knows what Coca Cola is, if you have that kind of budget as an independent filmmaker, God bless you. But if you don't, then you've got to focus on direct marketing. Direct Marketing is when you focus on a specific group of people. And then you start focusing your message to that group. And now with the power of Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube ads, all of those kinds of ads that are available through social media free and paid, you can actually see how many people click how many people are actually taking action buying or renting, you can see instantly where your dollars, or your energy is going towards. And you as an independent filmmaker have access to all of this. Again, anytime you've posted anything up on your social media feeds, regardless of the platform, you're marketing, you want people to see what you're doing you, if it's a writing an article, it's a blog, it's a podcast, whatever it is, you want people to see what you're doing. And you are marketing. So I just want to get that concept in your head. Because a lot of you think, Well, I'm not good at marketing, but I'm not a marketer, right? I don't really know anything about how to get the word out there. Of course you do. You know the basics, and you have the power that companies 50 years ago, would have killed for and it's on your fingertips. And you could do so much of it for free. By building your tribes by building up people who are interested in what you're doing. It is doable, it is possible. Many people have done it before you and many people will do it after you but the question you have to ask yourself is, am I going to do it? Because I truly, truly believe that filmmakers in today's world that do not understand the basics of marketing, social media brand building will not succeed in the business period. Let me repeat that. filmmakers who do not understand marketing, social media and branding will not succeed as an independent filmmaker, sure, there'll be outliers. Sure you some of you will make the next great independent film that will get into Sundance and you will have a ride of your life. Sure, that will happen once or twice here or there. But those are outliers. That is not the norm. If you want to build a business, around your art around your filmmaking, around yourself, as a filmmaker, you need to understand marketing, social media, and branding. And everything I'm saying is not just about promoting a movie or promoting a product, it's also about building you up building yourself as a brand up. And when I say building a brand, a lot of people think Well, I'm not Nike, I'm not apple. Of course not. But I promise you that if you are able to build up a brand as a filmmaker, like many of the guests that I've been able to do, who are trying to get attention from other people to get jobs, other people to get, you know commercial jobs, music, video jobs. If you build up a brand, around whatever kind of art you're trying to create, you will stand out from all of the competition, no matter if they're better than you more experienced, and you have better connections than you do. If you're able to build up your personal brand, you will be able to succeed in places you can even comprehend. Now, it is truly invaluable for you to understand these concepts. Now, there's a lot of great books, a lot of great courses out there that will help you down this road. I'm not telling you that you need to be an expert on everything, Facebook's Twitter, social, you know, Snapchat, all the different social media platforms. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that you need a degree in marketing, or in brand management or anything like that. But the basic simple things that you need to do build a website for yourself. First of all, let's talk about branding yourself. You build a website for yourself first of all, okay, you start creating content for that website, content that is wrapped around. What you want to be known for, whether that be directing, writing, production, design, cinematography, whatever part whatever art that you are practicing, and you want to be known for build content around that, that could be videos showing you doing it constantly creating a vlog where you then post it on YouTube. And again, also another thing, guys, many people create their brands on different platforms. And the more platforms you could do it, the better, but some people are stronger in certain platforms than others. My main platform is podcasting. You know, I'm one of the larger film making podcasts out there. But like someone like Jacob Owens, who's a well known music video director, he created buff nerds, and he created this insane YouTube Empire, meaning that people like he has almost a million followers on YouTube, I'm gonna have Jacob on the show in the coming weeks. And I really drill him about how to build a brand and how he did everything from the ground up. And you know, people do it on Instagram, people do it on Twitter, and on Facebook, and all these other platforms. The problem I always see with building your brand on a platform is that you're playing in someone else's sandbox. So you can do that. And it's wonderful and great to do it. But always have a website to go back to a hub that you can create, and kind of spawn everything out of. So no matter if all the social media platforms go away tomorrow, you still have a website where people know you and can go follow what you're doing. And I know a lot of you listening right now like Alex, that's so much work, I can barely just do the art just barely create the work that I'm trying to create. I hate to tell you guys, but this is the new reality of where we live in where we're going. If you think it's bad. Now wait until there's another 30 or 40% of people trying to break into this business, and trying to compete against you for jobs and opportunities. You need something to set yourself apart from everybody else. And what I'm laying out for you right now is one of the major keys of doing that. And let's talk about content for a second and creating content to build that brand, whatever that brand might be. If it's personal branding, if it's a movie that you're trying to put out or product that you're trying to put out. Let's just let me go back or go way back to 2005. When I released my short film broken, I've mo spoken about this this project many times, I did an entire episode about how I sold that and everything. But I want to I want to just present it as an example. Back in 2005, there was not many short films being sold on DVDs and people actually buying it. So what did I do to make my little short film with no stars and little action film shot in Florida? You know, you know, on mini DV no less? How did I get that to stand out? Well, what I did is, first of all, I said I'm going to put it on DVD and I'm going to try to sell it. And then I said to myself, well how am I going to be able to do that? How am I going to be able to to you know set myself apart from all these other short films that are even trying to get some attention, let alone trying to sell it. So then I created content, I created almost four hours or four and a half hours I forget of making of content, creating value to my smallest viable audience, which was filmmakers because I knew that audience because I am one of those audience members. So I wanted to create that product. And the second I was able to do that I started creating product and putting it on YouTube, posting it everywhere. At that moment, we did have a website. So I had people coming back to the website, I was doing all this instinctually I didn't read anything about it and understand what I was doing. But I was doing instinctually. And by the time that DVD came out, it blew up it to the point where we sold almost 5000 or over 5000 DVDs and made a lot of money with a short film back when nobody else was doing it. Now that same plan won't work today. So don't try it. It's not going to work today because the world is different today. There's a lot more of that content out there. So you have to create something else, you have to do something else to stand up above the crowd. And what I'm laying out in this, this podcast will help you to do that. Same thing goes for films. Same thing goes for production companies, creating content, building that brand up, providing value to the audience that you're trying to create. Understanding if you're going to spend money, what kind of money are you going to spend? I cannot tell you how many filmmakers that I consult on a daily basis who say the same thing. Look, we've got five or $10,000 to put into marketing. And I go you've got a romantic comedy with no stars in it. Nobody knows who you are. Nobody knows who this film is, because you haven't said a damn thing about it through this entire process of making it, you haven't built up any sort of awareness for it and you think $10,000 is going to dent anything, it won't. By that time, it's going to be very difficult to generate any sort of interest, any sort of awareness for that project. They didn't think it through from the beginning of when they created it all the way out to the end. So many of you who are listening to this will say, Alex, I just don't want to think about marketing it while I'm writing the script, well, maybe not while you're writing the script. But when you're in pre production, you better think about marketing, you better think about how you're going to get this out there. Because you have to, if not, you're dead. And I've seen it happen a million times, I cannot tell you weekly, I get these calls, weekly, I do consultations with with filmmakers who are just like, I don't know where to go with this, I'm like, you've got to build up this, this situation and understand how you're going to get your film out there. Just basically, because they didn't understand the difference between brand marketing and direct marketing. They think that $10,000 of buying some Facebook ads, for people who like romantic comedies is going to do a thing. You're just going to put more money in Zach's pocket, the owner of Facebook, Zuckerberg his pocket, that's it, that's all you are doing. Just understand that you cannot play in the branding, marketing game, you have to go direct marketing, you have to niche you've got to be razor focused, you've got it hit that target. When you're trying to sell your movie, when you're trying to market that movie, when you're trying to market yourself as anything, you've got to be raiser, then just go because you don't have a money owes. You don't have a money host to throw out to just kind of like shotgun, whatever you're trying to do get out there the message you're trying to get out there. And one other thing I'd like to say about this topic. And you can see I'm very passionate about this because I felt something in my bones said that I needed to do this podcast today that I needed to get this message out to you guys today. I don't know why I just woke up this morning and said you know what? I'm going to talk about branding, marketing, and social media. And I think it's something that I need to kind of reiterate every once in a while to you guys because things are changing so rapidly, almost on a weekly basis on how to get yourself out there. Now the other thing I want to say about this topic is one word, the one word, which is the lesson that took me the longest to learn. As that as the question I was asking my podcast, the question that took you the longest to learn whether in life or in the film business, I think it's both in the film business, his life is a one word answer, and is something that you guys have to understand very clearly, if you're going to make it if you're going to be able to achieve your dream patients. I know you don't like to hear it. I didn't, I didn't want to hear it at all when I was younger. But you have to understand that patience is what you're going to need to get all of the things I'm talking about forward, you're going to need a year head time to build up awareness for a feature film, you're going to have to be pounding it day in, day out, getting your brand out there, whether it be the brand of the movie, whether it be the brand of yourself of your production company, or whatever you're trying to achieve. You're going to take it's going to take time, it's taken me for almost four years. In July, it'll be four years to get the indie film hustle brand out there in a large way, and it's getting larger every day. Why? Because I have momentum. Because I started hustling hard. Every day I show up you guys know I show up every single day to work. And I come in and I create content. And I create value for my tribe. And I keep putting it out there every single day, every single week, week in week out holidays, Christmas, Thanksgiving, it's out there. Why? Because that's what you have to do. That's what you have to kind of get out there. And that's the kind of value that you have to provide for the audience that you're trying to get to. don't preach. Don't shout, hey, look at me, look at me look at my movie, provide value in one way, shape or form for whatever you're trying to create. Do you know how many, you know course instructors I've met? Who are, let's say, middle of the road cinematographers. I'm just gonna say it middle of the road. cinematographers don't have any huge credits, but they're more than capable. They're more than capable. But what they've done to create their brand is create online courses, to show people that they know what they're doing to become a leader in that space. And by doing Creating an online course about cinematography or about editing or about color grading or about whatever, all of a sudden, their status rises within the business, because they're like, wow, if this guy or This girl has made 10 courses on cinematography, they must know what they're doing, let's hire him, or let's hire her to do this, or they have this huge class on Skillshare, or Udemy, or on ifH, TV or wherever, all of a sudden, it gives you a different persona, that you're an educator that you're so prolific in what you're doing that you're now educating others in how to do it. And doesn't mean you don't need to be a master class level instructor to do that, all you have to do is be just a little bit ahead of everybody else that you're teaching. That's all a teacher is someone who knows just a little bit more, someone who can teach you something. But do you see the branding in that? Do you see that even if they're not the best in the world, you know, they're not the best in what they do in the world. But yet, they've been able to build a brand around themselves doing it and it rises their status within the business. So when a potential client or potential employer looks them up, and they said, Wow, this guy's created a YouTube channel that has 100,000 followers. And all he does is talk about editing, or all, all he talks about is about cinematography, all she talks about is writing, I'm going to hire her to consult, I'm going to hire her to be my cinematographer, I'm gonna hire this guy to be my post supervisor, because all he does is talk about post production. It's an amazing process. But I want you guys to see all these examples, because I want you to be able to do it for yourselves. And if you don't do one of these many options, I've given you five or 10 different ways to build your brand up to build your, your company's brand up or your films brand up. If you don't do one of these things, you will not make it, I promise you, you will not make it. If you're going to just do it the old way like they did back in the 90s. You know, which is where my mind was stuck for so many damn years, where you think you're gonna make an independent film, go to some festivals, and then all of a sudden, your career's gonna go off the ground. That's not the way the world works today. The sooner you understand that, the better. Like I said, there's always outliers. But generally speaking, for the rest of us, that's not going to work, it's going to be a long grind, a good grind, a journey to get attention to get us, you know, rise in status within whatever field, you're trying to get into all of those things in order to move forward and closer to the dream that you're trying to achieve. And one last thing, I'm going to say that it's kind of about marketing, kind of not about marketing, but I think it's something that needs to be said, I've said it before, but I'm gonna say it again. I personally love the journey. Now. I personally love the grind of every day. And I call it grind, but I use grind is a very loving word. I love it. I wake up every morning excited to do this every day. I love doing what I do. And you've got to fall in love with your grind with your journey. Because so many of us are focused on the destination. And I was I would say, I'm not happy until I get there. You'll never be happy guys, I promise you, you'll never be happy. Because when you get to those points, then there's nothing else then you've got to start another journey. Where are you going to spend most of your time on the journey or at the destination. You know, if you're going to take a road trip where you're gonna spend most of your time, you're gonna spend most of your time on the way to the destination. And then you're at the destination for a little while, and then you're gone. And you're on to the next journey. You've got to learn how to love the journey. And if you're on a journey right now that you're not loving, you need to ask yourself, How can I change that? How can I change my life? How can I change my world in a way that I love what I do every day? I know a lot of you have different situations, different scenarios in your life right now financial concerns, I get all that. But you just got to ask yourself one simple question. How bad do you want it? Sit there for a second and ask yourself that question. How bad do you want it? Am I willing to put in the work to get to where I want to be? That is the question you have to ask yourself to look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself that question. What do I need to do? What am I willing to do to get to my Dream Am I willing not to watch Game of Thrones tonight for an hour. So I can read something, listen to a book, listen to a podcast, take an online course, to educate myself to move myself forward in a place where I need to be in my life. These are things you need to ask yourself, guys. And this goes along with the marketing and the branding, because it's work. It's my God, it's work, I promise you, it's going to be work. But I tell you, it will pay off. All of you are marketers, whether you know it or not, whether you like it or not. Every time you post something, you're a marketer. Anytime you're on social media, you're a marketer. When you try to go to a young lady or a young man and try to pick them up, in a bar, you're marketing yourself to them. Everything is marketing, everything is branding. You need to understand these concepts. In the future, I'm going to create more resources for you guys, in regards to marketing and branding. Even more than I have, in the past, be a little bit more focus, be a little bit more actionable stuff that you can actually really go out and do. And I'm going to just keep pounding you guys, because I want you to succeed. I don't want to see you give up. I don't want to see you not get to the fullest potential that you have. Why are we here? If it's not to follow our effin dreams, I hope this podcast lit a fire in your butt. If you want to read a couple of good books that I recommend, I'm going to put these books in the show notes. You've got to read Seth Godin. Seth Godin is an amazing, amazing guy. And some of his books are invaluable. You need to read the purple cow, you really need to read this as marketing. And you need to read tribes. Those three books will help you dramatically on understanding marketing and branding and social media. Another one you need another couple books you need to read are crushing it by Gary Vaynerchuk and crushing it by Gary Vander Chuck, as well as the Thank You Economy by Gary Vee, those books, if you can read those books, you can go on Audible and get them you can actually sign up for Audible for free. Also, I'll put the link in the description, or go to film a free film book calm. And you can sign up for a free account and get one of these books for free for 30 days. It's that simple. And at least you can get the ball rolling, or buy these books however you want to ingest them get these these, these six books that I just throw out there. There's many more, I plan to do more and more of this kind of stuff in the future, creating more valuable content in regards to marketing, branding, and getting you guys to get up off your butts and do it. That's what I want you to do. I don't want you to complain, I don't want you to hide behind things. I don't want you to be afraid. You've got to go out there and do it. Alright. I hope this episode was valuable to you and will help you on your journey which you should be loving, by the way, getting to where you need to be. Please share this episode, please share the podcast with as many people as you can. I want this information to get out there to as many people as humanly possible. Because I really am so passionate about this work that I do this, this message that I'm trying to get out there. I want it to get out there to as many people as I can to. And I need you guys to try to help with that. So I really truly appreciate it. If you want links to the books and things I talked about in this episode, head over to indiefilmhustle.com/294 for the show notes. And guys, if you haven't heard, but I doubt that you haven't. But if you haven't heard, I wrote a book and it's called shooting for the mob. And it is my crazy misadventures trying to make a $20 million film for a mobster. And I was taken out through Hollywood met billion dollar producers. big giant movie stars. I even got to be Batman, which the stories in the book so you'll have to read it there. But if you want to preorder the book, head over to indiefilmhustlecom/mob. That's mob indiefilmhustlecom/mob, preorder it on Amazon, it comes out February 22. Please spread the word I really want to get this story out there it is not only a cool story about how not to follow your dream as a filmmaker in the business and the crazy misadventures through Hollywood and the mafia. But it also is a story about how to not sell your soul to the devil to make your dream come true. How not to compromise your own morals. How to stand up for yourself how to get out of bad situations, and many other things that I think are more universal for everybody listening. So thank you guys again, so, so much. There's a ton of great stuff coming up on IFH TV tomorrow with dumping a whole bunch of new stuff on the platform. And don't forget February 1 IFH TV goes up to the regular price of $13.99 a month. So if you're already in at $10.99, you're in there until you leave. So you're grandfathered in. But if you want to take advantage, you want to check things out for indie film hustle TV, do it before the end of the month. If not, it's going to go up to $13.99 a month and it will not go back down to $10.99 a month. So thank you again, so much for listening. I really, really hope this episode helped you guys out. And as always, keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

YOUTUBE VIDEO

IFH 143: How NOT to Shoot a $50,000 Short Film – Lessons Learned

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So as filmmakers we all want to make the best films we can. Sometimes filmmakers think that a bigger budget is the answer, that bigger is better. This is what I thought when I went down the road and create my short film Red Princess Blues. After going down this road once before with my first short film BROKEN, I thought bigger had to be better. If $8000 was good (budget of BROKEN) then with $50,000 I could blow everyone away.

BROKEN opened a ton of doors for me as a filmmaker. I was contacted by studios, executives, producers, agents, you name it. BROKEN was an ambitious short film, to say the least. You can listen to that story here: How I Made Over $90,000 Selling My Short Film. 

In this episode, I discuss the mistakes I made when I made a $50,000+ short film. Mistakes with

  • Budget
  • Crew Choices
  • Size of Crew and Cast
  • Production Design
  • Distribution Plan
  • ROI (Return on Investment)
  • Who is the end-user (audience I’m trying to reach)

I do hope to get the opportunity to make the feature film version of Red Princess Blues someday soonI’m just not sure spending $50,000 for a proof of concept short film was the way to get that train moving.

Here’s the synopsis of the short film:

ZOE, a young teenage girl, is lured into an after hours carnival tent by the sleazy rock n roll carnie RIMO, and gets more then she bargained for. It’s up to the mysterious PRINCESS, star of the new knife show, to pull her out of the wolf’s den.

This is not the first short film I made based on my feature film screenplay. I co-directed, with my brother in arms Dan Cregan, a traditional Japanese Anime Prequel called Red Princess Blues: Genesis starring the legendary Lance Henriksen

 

I was a bit ahead of the curve on the distribution of Red Princess Blues. I was the first short film to be distributed exclusively on an iPhone app. Streaming was not a thing yet. I go over what happened with that in the episode as well. Check out this promo I made for the app.

It’s not all doom and gloom. Many amazing opportunities were generated from RPB, I just wish it wouldn’t have cost me as much. = ) These are some interviews and red carpet moments from Red Princess Blues’ World Premiere at the HollyShorts! Film Festival.

 

I do hope to get the opportunity to make the feature film version of Red Princess Blues. I hope you find some words of wisdom in this episode and that you can learn a few lessons that cost me a bunch of $$$ to learn. So if you are thinking of shooting a $50,000 short film, FOR GOD SAKE DON’T. Listen to this first, I beg you! = ) Enjoy!

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Killer Ways to Brainstorm Short Film Ideas

Short films have become a lot more popular nowadays with the advancements in the field of media, but coming up with short film ideas can be challenging. Since short films are easier to make than the feature movies, the production cost is also a lot cheaper. One has to have some ideas and they may be inspired or may come mainly from your everyday life, personal life, personal experiences, experiences of others, or even on the fantasies that you have.

The first thing to remember is that you have maximum 10 to 15 minutes to grab your audience’s attention, so make sure to make the best out of the least. Some people do not have any trouble in coming up with ideas for the short film, and they get it spot on. On the other hand, most people do not even know how long should their short film should be.

Here are a few ways that you should try to come up some great short film ideas:

1. Brainstorm Short Film Ideas:

You can brainstorm a lot of short film ideas to get started, and it can be in the form of a small script or anything. The initial ideas are raw, and they do not have to make any sense, but you have to keep working until you find the right idea. Your short film idea or plot relies on your creative skills and thus, you have to start some brainstorming activities to start with the concept of the short film.

Everyone wants to get done with the visual content first so that they can visualize the main plot or theme of the short film. On the other hand, remember that you have to remain attentive while brainstorming the ideas and do not stop until you find something that you think will captivate the minds of the audience. Most of the award-winning short film ideas come from brainstorming, and you have to use brainstorming as a form of exercise.

2. Write It Out:

There is no doubt that the best of the directors are also one of the best screenplay writers. You have to use those writers as a form of inspiration to get that perfect idea for your short film. Writing about your personal experiences, or something experienced by someone else, can make a huge difference to the ideas that you already have thought of. Write about some believable or unbelievable ideas, even if you haven’t selected the theme or the genre of the short film.

Drawing an initial outline is the first step that you can take towards the formation of an idea. Before writing, make up some scenarios in your mind, and write about the central concept that comes to your mind with that scenario, and then, with the help of a few friends, you can form the idea to give it a defined shape. Work with instincts and instances and add some experiences so that your idea can remain original and the basic plot is set.

3. Create a Routine:

In an attempt to decide the major theme or the core plot of your short film, you can form a routine so that you try to generate the best ideas every single day until you find the right idea. The best times to produce the perfect ideas out of your mind is morning and at night. Creating a routine is a tricky concept as you have to devote 10 minutes in the morning, and that too, before having breakfast or doing anything else.

In the morning, your mind is fresh, and your level of creativity is at its peak, so make sure to use that time well. It is a quite healthy part of a routine and healthy for the mind. Plus, this way you can also use your dreams as an outline, or form something out of the dreams you had before. This similar routine can be integrated into the nighttime as well before you go to bed. There is a 50 percent chance that you will generate the best idea during one of these times of the day.

4. Watch Other Movies:

Everyone wants to make the topic of their short film unique and original. But then again, you can always use other films, or even novels, as a source of inspiration for the idea of your short film. You can become a keen observer to make something out of the most neglected topic in any movie or novel that you’ve seen or read.

You can raise an issue that you think that the director ignored in the film and created your short film around that idea; it doesn’t matter if you are in favor or against that idea. All you have to think of is to find a way to form and present that idea as yours, and make sure that it stays original no matter what.

5. Find The Right Resources:

Robert Rodriguez said it best when he was making his landmark film El Mariachiuse what you have access to. If you have a house, backyard, dog, motorcycle in the garage and a parrot write your story around those elements.  You should list the number of resources and make certain that you visit those places or people to form the right idea for yourself. Furthermore, if you do not have the right resources available for the idea of your short film, then you can start your research to find something that is more visually exciting for your project.

You have to remember that if your initial idea is not interesting enough, no matter how much determination you put into it, your short film will not be good enough. On the other hand, some miraculous directors can make the best movies using the simplest ideas by using the right resources and presenting it in such a manner that it makes the short film a remarkable one. The resources can be many things, i.e. a particular location, props, or anything that grabs your attention.

6. Make Up a Story:

By replicating a few quotes from some of the prominent film scenes, or by envisioning some of the mainstream plots of the most famous movies or novels, you can form some short film ideas, or find something that inspires. You can also create a story by developing individual characters in your mind; for instance, place your characters in a situation where they do not have any resources and no other way to get out. Use different challenging scenarios to make up the perfect storyline for your short film.

Entrap your characters in various and unusual circumstances and limit the resources they have to free themselves from these conditions. However, keep in mind that you should not choose such a conflict that can take too much of the time to be explained. Most of the short film ideas come from the exhausted themes or plots, and you have to find a way to present it in such a way that it becomes your original idea.

7. Stories from Real Everyday Life

Why don’t you look at your local paper for some short film ideas? You can choose an idea from the news, or you can create a short film from the actual real world situations. It can be on the financial affairs of the state, or the political conditions, or anything else that can be extracted out from the newspaper or the headlines. You can form the best short film ideas by incorporating any current headline and forming it into a recognized piece of art.

As they say,

“truth is stranger than fiction,”

you have to find the news that you think needs to be explained on a certain level and you can do in-depth research on the subject to form the plot and idea of your short film perfectly. The idea would be original, and your short film is going to be recognized by a larger audience. A good headline can result in a remarkable plot or idea for a short film.

8. Simple yet Engaging:

There is no doubt in the fact that first-time directors or screenwriters should consider opting for a simple genre, theme, or storyline for their short film. If the idea of the movie is too complicated or grandiose your short film will suffer. Don’t try to complete with big Hollywood tentpole films. Focus on a great story, characters, and plot.

Unless you are completely aware of the dos and do nots of the film industry, you cannot work on complex ideas. The best way to step into this industry is to find something that is simple yet intriguing to the audience. If your first short film is a failure, then most people would not be interested in watching your second film, even if it is one of the best short films of all times.

Alex Ferrari 1:38
So today, guys, I wanted to talk about a project I did many moons ago. And I learned a tremendous amount of lessons. It's actually one of the most valuable projects I ever did in regards to the lessons and what I learned from it, and how not to do things. Now, as the title of the podcast suggests how not to shoot a $50,000 short film.

Now, you must be asking yourselves, Alex, where the hell did you get 50 grand? Well, Mistake number one is I invested $50,000 from my savings that I had been saving over the course of years. But before I get into all of that, I'm going to go back to the beginning. And I'm going to talk to you guys a little bit about what how the project came to be, how I how, what happened to my journeys through Hollywood meetings, things like that, and where it is today. So the project I wrote, I wrote a screenplay A few years ago, a few years ago now called Red princess blues. And I wrote a full screenplay because when I went through this the first time with my short film broken, where I got a lot of press and got into a bunch of festivals and the detours got studios calling me producers calling me about the movie, I had nothing ready. So I said to myself, well, if I can make a cool short film, again, get a bunch of attention, but I'll have a screenplay ready, and it'll be ready to go. So when I do those meetings, I'll have that screenplay. And I can pop it up, and I'm off to the races. And that was the theory. So when I started doing when I went after creating red princess blues, that was my first main focus was to create a calling card for not only myself as a director, but also for the project and hopefully getting the project off the ground. So after doing broken I did, you know I wanted to do, I want to take everything up a notch, I wanted to get some name actors, or at least faces some really accomplished actors that I can work with. And I was blessed to have working with Robert Forster, an Academy Award nominee from Jackie Brown, Tarantino's Jackie Brown. He's a legend, legendary actor who worked with us on the project as of course, Richard Tyson, from Kindergarten Cop fame from back in the 80s. And he's always working and he's a very established actor as well. And Rachel grant who is a Bond girl from one of James once one appears Boston's James Bond movies back in the day as well. So these were all established actors and experienced actors and I want to just take everything up a notch from what I did before. So I wanted to create a world and create this environment which is a really seedy, carny. You know, Carnival folk, you know, backstage after a carnival, you know, hookers and prostitutes and drinking and all sorts of debauchery going on. And I had never seen anything like that on screen before. So I was like, Well, let me see if I can kind of create this world. So not only did I have, you know, the most experienced actors I've ever worked with, at that point in my career in front of the lens, I needed to have an insane team on the back behind the scenes as well. So I was able to work with a production designer from 24, the show 24, who was amazing and he was able to create these crazy sets and I'll tell you a little story about where we got the sets in a bunch of the sets in the first place. But we also was I was also able to work with a stunt coordinator. His name is Jeff parlanti who was the stunt coordinator on 24 he's been I mean he was on the CRO he was on Scarface I mean he'd been around for a while but he was the the head stunt coordinator on 24 and now has been the stunt coordinator on Hawaii Five o for the last seven years six seven years that he's been on that as well so he was able to gather a bunch of amazing stunt performers to come and work out work with us on this little action short and I again the quality of people I was working with was pretty much top of the industry I mean people were coming from Kill Bill the matrix You know, I'm insane you know, insane credits, we're all coming to work on my little short film that I was shooting here in North Hollywood for God's sakes. So these guys were coming up and helping me work on this stuff I had a great dp who you know very seasoned dp that I worked with as well and and we were pulling favors left and right I was you know, I was pulling fit and like you can imagine like, it cost 50 grand, but yet I got a lot of stuff gratis, I got a lot of stuff donated or helped or pulled favors or exchange services, all sorts of stuff like that. So I had a really top end team and when you see the short you'll you'll see that it was well put together I mean, and I'm not being cocky, but on a on a professional standpoint, the production value was fairly high on it without question because I had amazing talent working behind the scenes. So we built this insane set that you know, we were able to since 24 was just shutting down. My production designer basically went over to the 24 warehouse and just grabbed a bunch of flats which are basic walls pre done walls that had graffiti on them and had you know, brick on them so we were able to create the outside of a carnival inside of a soundstage. So we were able to do that we went to their prop warehouse and basically just took a shopping cart and grabbed whatever we needed for free this was all for free guys I mean so even with all of that you might you'll ask how where'd all this money go to? No, I'll tell you in a minute. So we were able to build this this really awesome short and I'm very very proud of it. And I'm gonna just step back for a second this is the second red princess blue short The first one was an actually an animated a Japanese anime that I co directed with my my brother in arms Dan creegan who is the animator on on it and I tried to create kind of like a prequel story to the short film into the into the screenplay trying to get attention that way. So not only had one short I had to really high end shorts that that I'm using to promote and try to get this project off the ground. So what's the first lesson I learned? Well, I'll tell you I'll finish up where this this short went. We made the short it got into probably I don't know 60 7080 Film Festivals I didn't keep going with it. I could have probably gotten to another 50 or 60 of them. But you know went out I did a lot of I did a lot of as they say the water bottle tour around la in the studio's meeting with different producers meeting with different studios who are interested in the project. I had a book of artwork created for it. I mean storyboards we had an entire investment package created a ppm all the legal paperwork to start getting the ball rolling with it. I mean we really I really went all out for it guys you know I I swung for the fences without question. I swung for the fences with red princess and I'm very proud of how it ended up I'm very proud of it's still one of my favorite things I've ever done in my life it was it was so beautiful and I was so happy with the way it turned out. Of course we always want to change things but that's that's the way all artists are all directors are, you know, you want to go back and like Oh, I wish I could have done this or that. But you know, we shot it in over three days. I think it was two days or three days. I don't even remember anymore. But it was pretty intense. And it was a lot of a lot of extras. A lot of wardrobe. A lot of a lot of everything. So what happened with what happened with the project? Well, a lot of dead ends. A lot of people wanted to be attached. You know a lot of a lot of producers like hey, let me go get money for it. It was set up i i optioned it a few times. Nothing ever came out of it, you know. So that's where a lot of not only that project, but all the projects I've done in my career. That's why I'm a little cynical about how things work in Hollywood as a general statement, but Nothing really came out of it. So, you know, where Why did it cost $50,000? Well, the very first thing is I was trying to create a world I was trying to do something that I hadn't seen before. And I was really trying to impress Hollywood and press studios and press producers or agents or managers. It was a, it was a point in my life where there was a desperation. It was a desperation in, in my work, and in the way I carried myself, a lot of the things I preach against Now, on the podcast and on indie film, hustle, I was doing back then. So when I say not to do it is because I know what happens when you do do it. And I was doing it for a long time. But, you know, I think one of the big mistakes that you make, and this is one of the this is one of the top mistakes that I made on red princess is trying to compete with a Hollywood production. As far as production value is concerned, huge. I was trying to create a 10 minute piece that had the same production value out of a 10 minute, a 10 minute Hollywood blockbuster of $100 million, which is not really, really not really possible. It really isn't. Now, you're a lot of people are listening to that as well. How about district nine, I mean, they did this insane visual effects, huge production value, and there's multiple other shorts that came out, that did things that are really high end to get noticed, and to get their projects off the ground. Yes, that is exactly it. So district nine, I'm going to use as an example, if you have access to high end visual effects, guys, that really are insane. And you feel that you can create a world and can create a production value that's on par with a studio. Great, do it. Okay, but my advice and my experience is don't because, yes, district nine happened, how many district nines Have there been in the last 1520 years? Not many. And there's a reason for that. Because when and again, this is my opinion, when Hollywood looks at new talent. You know, the El Mariachi model of like, look at all that production value, they got out of no money, those days are gone. They really are, they're not there anymore. Because production value is affordable. Now, you can get high production value. But now that that bar is moved from the days of El Mariachi, you know, an action movie back in 9291 92 is a lot different than an action movie now, before they were making 15 20 million $10 million action movies that were being released theatrically. Now they're not. Now they're making 100 100 and $50 million action movies. You know, it's not, it's not on par anymore. But what has created a lot of stars directors, writer, writer directors, who's created a lot of noise is been with good short films that are story based, character based, vision based. That's what Hollywood is looking for. They're looking for a unique voice. They're looking for someone who can direct story and character someone could tell a story and tell and work with characters and actors and have a point of view a vision. Okay, a voice a unique voice. Because this is the way Hollywood looks at things, guys. And this is again my opinion. They look at a guy like Chris Nolan. Okay, who started off with with a film called the following. You look at the movie called if you look at movie called memento or following, you don't think blockbuster you don't think one of the biggest blockbuster directors of his generation. You don't think that. But what Chris was able to do, or Mr. Nolan, excuse me, I don't know him personally. What Chris Nolan was able to do was show people he can tell a story, that he can work with actors, that he had a unique point of view, a unique vision. That's what you need to focus on with short films. And guess what, those kind of shorts, or those kind of independent features are affordable. When you go after these bigger big movie action style kind of films, and you're trying to compete with Hollywood, you're not going to make it and I'm not the I'm the I'm the first to say, never give up on a dream. Never give up on trying to try something new. But understand that there is a risk when doing it at a big dollar value. Like I did, I roll the dice with $50,000 of hard earned money that I had created. And believe me, it wasn't like I had half a million in the bank. That was a lot of money and it took a big chunk out of my savings out now if you want to go and try to create high production value and really compete with the big boys on a feature length film. You can I'm gonna have an amazing story coming up in the next few weeks of a filmmaker who just did that. Wondering $50,000 budget that looked like a 20 to $30 million budget. And it really did and how he did it. So the it is possible with the feature you have something you can sell, you have something that you can make money with, you can have an ROI. On shorts, it's very difficult to make a lot of money. It's unique if you can. So you can't invest a large amount of money in those kinds of short film projects unless you really feel that you're going to be able to make all of your money back. Lesson number one, focus on story on on how to tell a story how to work with actors and character and create characters and a vision, a point of view or new voice. That's what Hollywood is looking for with short films, specifically, if there are going to if there anything even happens with short films. I know many short films that like the Raven, which is one I'll put a link to in the description, I read all these articles Mark Wahlberg bought bought the script and all this stuff, nothing's happened with it. That's happened three, four years ago, it's probably stuck in a hotel somewhere. And I would love to know what happened with that project. Because it was a great little project had a lot of great, you know, there was a commercial director who did it, he busted out all his friends spent about 150 100 grand on it, and did a really nice job and really showed off what he can do. But nothing happened. Nothing happened with it. Not saying that there's anything wrong with that project. But it just didn't happen. It's just the way Hollywood works, guys. So and I've seen so many of these shorts that are all high end. When I was when I was doing this water bottle tour I was these guys were showing me shorts in their rooms of other guys who were doing cool things I was looking at, like why haven't I haven't seen this before? Holy Cow look at that doesn't matter. It was rough. So guys focus on story and telling a good story. The next mistake I made is, I didn't initially I didn't know who I was going to do that, who was who I was aiming this to who was my audience, I didn't know who my audience was, you know, I really thought like, well, I'll just make it and make a whole bunch of noise. And I'll do what I did with broken and people will come You know, if you build it, they will come. And it didn't work that way. So because I didn't understand who I was aimed this aiming this at or focusing this at. I kind of kind of like, floundered I didn't know where to do because I made a very conscious effort not to redo what I did was broken in the sense of creating a whole bunch of tutorials and put out another DVD and sell that I decided like, I'm not going to do that again, in my high end ego craziness that I was back then, where you're like no, I'm not gonna do that I've done that already. I've moved on from that. Well, believe me, in hindsight, I wish I would have done something like that, because then maybe would have been able to bring back a little bit of dinero from I would have maybe recoup some of my money, which was which I didn't. I did do one thing. And I did try to create a unique thing I was I think I was the first short film to actually create an app, an actual app on the iPhone and Android where you can buy the app for 99 cents or $1.99, or whatever it was and watch my short with a bunch of behind the scenes footage. And other things that I put on it. I was a little bit ahead of my time. But I also don't think it was a wise thing because I was out of the after making the after making the app and everything like that I might have if I was lucky, I might have pulled in 500 bucks, 1000 bucks if I'm lucky. And it cost me like 500 bucks to make the damn app in the first place. So you know, the the self distribution outlets, we're not there yet. This is 2010 2009 2010. So there wasn't amazon prime, there wasn't, you could put it on YouTube. But that was still very taboo to put a short film on YouTube back then, if you're going to try to get into festivals and stuff like that. So it was a bunch of different things that were going on back then. So knowing who you want the short, the short, that you're making to go to is very important, especially when you're risking so much money.

The next big mistake I made and I didn't ask myself this question because I was just so gung ho about putting it out there was where is going, what's going to be my ROI, what's gonna be my return on investment. You know what, I was really swinging for the fences on this. And I'm do I did basically everything I preach against. I had no real real distribution plan. I had no real way of making money with it. Because I had no I had no indie film hustle. There was nothing like that around. I had no audience I had nothing I can sell. So basically I was just going to put it out in the festival market and hope that someone watches it and someone comes down from Mount mount Hollywood, taps me on the shoulder and says you shall direct here's a check for for $5 million, go make your movie and you're off to the races. And it did not work that way and it does not work that way. That's why I yell so much about this when I when I talk about this subject We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. So I didn't ask myself that question, what's my return on investment, so I had no way of selling it, I had no way of making any money with it. And I had no way of guaranteeing that I even had a chance of making any money with it. So that was one of the biggest mistakes I made as a filmmaker is I invested as a businessman, I invested $50,000 in a product that I had no way of selling, I was just using it as a proof of concept. And $50,000 is a hell of an expensive proof of concept, you're doing it for a grand or to something that's really affordable in a smaller scale than Yes. And if you want to do that, by all means you can do that. But on an investment like $50,000, you look at that now a lot of you guys listening like 50 grand, I can make three movies with 50 grand you can make I could have made a feature film with 50 grand, but at that time, technology wasn't caught up yet. And this this new revolution, that DSLR revolution hadn't hit yet, as far as making really affordable, short, independent films, things like that. So please always ask the question, what's going to be my return on investment? Where am I going to make money on this? How am I going to make money on this? Can I afford to lose all this money? Or am I going to swing for the fences, and you can do that, and a lot of people have done that with features, you know, they mortgage their house, for God's sakes, listen to Episode 88. If you're thinking about doing something like that, and I'll put a shirt I'll put that in the show notes as well, you know, or to put it all on your credit cards, you know, and make $50,000 you know, it's very romantic. But anyway, I don't want to get into that because I'll go off again. But, you know, at least I did it with my money. And I didn't put it on credit and it didn't kill me. It was something that I could afford. It still hurt. So also, I wanted to go back real quick on the production of it. And lessons I learned from making a $50,000 short film like Where did $50,000 go? That's the question Where did 50 grand go if I got all this free stuff, people working for free, high end people working for free, or really cheap, how about where it all the scope I made the goddamn thing too big, it was an event you walk on that set that I had first of all, I had a soundstage that I had to run out for a week that wasn't cheap, I had to hire producer all the food the the I must have had on set on any day, probably 30 to 40 people maybe even 50 people on a short film. So all those people had to be fed all of those people a lot of those peoples were being paid a lot of them were actors and extras I had to deal with with sag and all the fees that had to pay for it back then before all the the rules changed so it was a little bit tougher back then to deal with sag so the thing was that there was just so many people and each of those departments needed a bunch of different things and if you watch the short film you'll understand like okay, there was a lot of stuff going on you know and that's what a lot of free stuff you know, I had a lot of favors I pulled to get it done but it was just so big. I had a really good production team for the most part there were issues there were people that I wish I would have not hired on my team because you know, I wasn't working with a lot of people that I knew and had only been in LA for basically a couple years at that point so I didn't have the the depth of connections and relationships that I do now let's say because I hadn't worked as much as I had at that to that point. So I was still I was still you know kind of green and I was definitely green working with a full full blown Hollywood set you know, full blown Hollywood set with really high end people that are expected to do certain things. So I felt that the whole short got a little bit away from me back then. And we're talking about now eight years ago, almost seven, eight years ago. And I learned a lot about how I wanted to run a set how I wanted to control my my vision and make sure that the vision that I have is gonna get gets onto that screen. So I had to fight on set with people's egos and stuff like that which I was not aware of. It wasn't any of my actors by the way all my actors were wonderful talking about people behind the scenes, and it could be the smallest thing it could have been the biggest thing but but because I felt like this was all out of control for me. I think that's where a lot of this money when I when when you when you do a project this at this size, there was a money hose and all of a sudden when you crack that money hose open, it just keeps flowing. It keeps flowing and keeps flowing and it's it is it's like opening up a brand new business which I have a little experience about as you guys all know with my gourmet shop. It was very similar to opening up our store like The second you open it, every day, there's something new every day, you need to put more money in here. And I didn't know that I didn't know that. And, you know, oh, this department needs this now. And this heart needs that now we need this permit. Now we need this insurance now. And, you know, we did a lot of things that I wish we wouldn't have done. But I felt that it was a little out of control. And once that train left the station, it was very difficult for me to control it. So that's that's just an experience, and running with a $50,000 budget when you were that inexperienced to something I think was a bit foolish on my part. Now, with all of that said, Those were the big mistakes, I felt, trying to compete with high low production, you know, values, not focusing on on story and vision as much. I didn't understand who I was really focused, how I was going to be able to make money with this and who I was focused, what my audience was going to do, and what my ROI what my return on investment is going to be and having a distribution plan at all. That's why I always yell. festivals are not a distribution plan, you have to actually have one. So what good things came out of red Princess, and whereas red princess today? Well.

A lot of good things came out of red Princess, I was able to do a lot of festivals made a lot of connections. I was on on panels with big, big star the Collingwood stars, made connections with them had the experience of doing a lot of La film festivals. I mean, it was literally every other week I was on a red carpet with this with this film, it was very well received. And people really do enjoy it and really liked it, which is great. And it did, it did add one thing it did do, it did add a level of legitimacy to myself as a director, and that little short did get me jobs. So I think probably from all the jobs I've gotten based off of that short, I was able to probably recoup my money, at least just from the jobs that I was getting as a director as a commercial director, music, video director, and things like that based off the quality that I was able to create with that. So on that sense, it was a very big success. I have been able to if you guys are part of the syndicate, you've probably seen the short film that I'm talking about short films I'm talking about because they're part of our of the syndicate, part of the filmmaking hacks course, that I have, where I talk a little bit about my experiences making the film will go a little bit behind the scenes of how we did some things I did do some behind the scenes, but nothing compared to what I did on on broken or the depth of the tutorials that I was able to do back then. And I By the way, I still have probably about 10 or 15 hours of behind the scenes footage. Maybe one day, I'll go into it and start creating some tutorials on how we did some of the cool stuff we did back then. But I'm busy right now you can imagine. So many of the lessons I learned on red Princess, I brought to this is Meg and this is Meg is the complete opposite of what I did with red princess. You know, it's a feature first of all is not a short, it was very controllable. I, I kept it really small, very small crew, and focused on story focused on character focused on vision of what I wanted to try to do, and the kind of story I was trying to tell as a director. And it you know, it's a complete and the risk is very minimal, comparatively to, you know, 50 grand or 60 grand on on a short film.

Well, let me go back, of course, obviously, this is made was made for under $25 million. And I released the budget once my my IRS artists done, but it was done on a humble budget, to say the least. But again, so I do believe that red princess blues was a amazing experience for me as a filmmaker. And I think, you know, I wouldn't want you guys to have to go through that and lose 50 grand and then wait years to hopefully get jobs to get yourself paid back. That's not a business plan. But um, you know, I'm very happy that I went through that. And I'm very happy that of the lessons I learned from it because it made me a much, much, much better director, and very proud of it and very proud of what we were able to do with it. Now where is it today? Well, my screenplays still available. And I love that screenplay. I love what I did with it, it has been read a bunch haven't really pushed it too much, I might start pushing it a little bit more in the next coming months. Once I start getting a little bit of attention from this is Meg hopefully, and I'll have something else in my back pocket to show people at meetings and go oh, by the way, I also did this short so I think the story of red princess blues and where it's going to take me as a filmmaker and a storyteller is, is still being written but I wanted to share this experience with you guys because I know a lot of people out there are thinking maybe of doing a big swing for the fences kind of short film. And I just wanted to show you guys my experience and tell you guys Mike experience of what I went through doing something like that. The bottom line is guys that you got to keep working. And you know, if I would do this all over again today I would take that 50 grand and make a feature film without question without question. In today's world, there's no reason absolutely no reason you would spend $50,000 on a short film, unless you're trying to do exactly what I told you not to do, which is to create a world create the same kind of production value that you're trying to compete with on a on a Hollywood budget film to try to get those jobs. If you're trying to get those jobs. My suggestion is follow what all the other really well known. directors who have gotten noticed the Darren Aronofsky is with pi, Chris Nolan, with with the following the momento, these guys focused on story, not big blockbuster films, hollywood figures that they can't hire a great team around a visionary director, because the technical stuff can be you can hire technical, it's hard to hire vision, it's hard to hire someone with a voice. That's something you can't buy as easily as a very competent, creative crew. So understand that and next time you're going to try to make a short film, a feature film to try to get attention or to even get your name out there into the world guys. I hope you got something out of that guys and hope you learn from my mistakes and it was an expensive mistake, but I'm proud of that mistake and I wear it with pride. So thanks again guys for listening. Don't forget to head over to free film book calm that's free film book calm to download your free filmmaking audio book from audible. The Show Notes for this episode our indie film hustle.com Ford slash 143 and I have links to everything I talked about in this episode there as well as trailers for princess if you guys want to watch princess and are not part of the syndicate. You can always go to Amazon it's on Amazon Prime if you want to watch it there I'll leave a link there in the in the show notes as well. Or you can rent or buy there as well. And both shorts are on Amazon as well the animated one the red princess blues Genesis, as well as the the live action red princess blues. And don't forget guys, this is Meg is going to be at cinequest March 3 is our world premiere on Saturday. 320 put links in the description if you guys are in the area, please come by the whole the whole town the whole gang is going to be there. A lot of cast and crew are going to be there at the two premieres the two two showings that weekend. So please come by we really appreciate if you do. Thanks for listening guys. And as always keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive and I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 043: Jon Reiss – The Ultimate Guide to Film Distribution & Marketing

Want to hear a crazy story on how one Filmtrepreneur used a hybrid distribution and marketing strategy to sell his film Bomb ItMay I introduce Jon Reiss.  After hearing his story I had to have him on the show so he can tell his story to the IFH Tribe.

Jon Reiss was named one of “10 Digital Directors to Watch” by Daily Variety, Jon Reiss is a critically acclaimed filmmaker whose experience releasing his documentary feature, Bomb It with a hybrid distribution and marketing strategy.

This strategy inspired him writing Think Outside the Box Office: The Ultimate Guide to Film Distribution and Marketing for the Digital Era, the first step-by-step guide for filmmakers to distribute and market their films. Two years ago he co-wrote Selling Your Film Without Selling Your Soul and last year co-wrote Selling Your Film Outside the U.S.: Digital Distribution in Europe. (FREE AUDIOBOOK VERSIONS HERE)

Jon Reiss teaches in the Film Directing Program at California Institute of the Arts. He created the course “Real World Survival Skills: Everything I Wish I Had Been Taught in Film School” which covers the practical/business aspects of filmmaking from fundraising through distribution.

Jon is a very interesting filmmaker. When I spoke to him he brought the heat and shared a ton of film marketing and distribution knowledge.

Enjoy my conversation with Jon Reiss.

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Alex Ferrari 0:36
Today, guys, we're in for a treat. We've got a film distribution and marketing expert by the name of John Reiss. John wrote a book called thinking outside the box office the Ultimate Guide to film distribution, and marketing for the digital era. Now john is very well known throughout the industry, for his very unique techniques of doing kind of like a hybrid distribution marketing strategy that helped him sell his movie bomet. Very well, and how he was able to do it, he was written up in daily variety as one of the top 10 Digital directors to watch. He's also a music video director, as well as a documentary and narrative director. And he's co written two other books called selling your film without selling your soul, and selling your film outside the US digital distribution for Europe. So John's a really interesting guy, he has amazing information. So I had to get him on the show to share that with you, the tribe. So sit back and relax and enjoy my interview with John Reiss. Hey, John, thank you so much for jumping on board on the indie film hustle podcast, I really appreciate you taking the time.

John Reiss 1:59
Hey, thanks for having me. Happy to do it.

Alex Ferrari 2:03
Thanks so much. And so can you tell us a little bit about yourself about where you come from and what you're doing?

John Reiss 2:08
Um, I come from Silicon Valley. Okay. And, you know, you know, tried to do a short but ended up a place called target video, which was a punk rock collective in San Francisco in the early 80s. And then kind of got interested in industrial culture in work with these guys who make large remote control robots survivor Research Laboratory started doing documentaries of punk rock and them and then I went to UCLA film school. You know, like so many people do. And at a film school, I did a bunch of music videos, most notoriously was one for Nine Inch Nails. And then just kind of like, you know, did what everyone does, you know, you kind of like do things here do things, they're produced a directed a couple features, produced my produced it feature. And then started even writing scripts that based on my features, I started getting some script writing jobs. And then that kind of that kind of world dried up and is like, I was really dying to make another film. So I ended up making a film about graffiti all over the world. And which actually, then that came out around when the market distribution market collapsed. And

Alex Ferrari 3:25
when you mean the distribution market, you mean like the market, the market or all of this, like distribution market in general,

John Reiss 3:31
pretty much everything in general and collapse, you know, but especially in the independent film world, but it was also the beginning of the shrinkage of you know, even studio feature films. And I think it coincided with the, you know, the financial market collapsing, but it was also, I think there was a bubble burst in the independent film world, especially So, you know, we didn't know and bought the film, we thought someone's gonna buy it, we got a bunch of Lady, we basically, we had the experience that most filmmakers have these days, you know, a lot of low money offers or no money offers and for all rights, and, you know, now there's a lot more opportunities for filmmakers. It's still difficult to kind of pick the right path, I would say. But so I took the film out in a hybrid manner, and then people encouraged me to write about it because it seemed like I was doing something unique. And I also when I started writing about it, it seemed like I had a skill of distilling what appeared really complex and opaque to most people was, you know, I couldn't explain it in a very clear manner. And so because of that, people suggest I read a book that I wrote a book called think outside the box office, which is kind of like a manual on how to release your film, kind of a book I wish I had had when I released my film. And then since then, that kind of you know, since then, I've been working with filmmakers and doing workshops and other writing and

Alex Ferrari 4:58
just taking over the world and just

John Reiss 5:02
One little slice of it,

Alex Ferrari 5:04
a little corner, a little nugget that putting a dent in the indie film world, like Steve Jobs says, put a dent in the universe. So can you break down? I think you went over a little bit. But can you break down the story of what actually happened with bomet? Which was your documentary?

John Reiss 5:18
Right? So basically, you know, we took it to trade back, you know, sold out, we turned away around 200 people per screening, you know, is crazy, you know, I even documented that and, you know, standing ovations, you know, it's like, we were going, Oh, great. We're gonna sell the movie millions, millions, not even millions, like that my investors gonna recoup sure maybe being a little money, you know, some good distributors gonna release it, lots of people will see it, you know, and then crickets, you know, effectively crickets. And you know, that's when everyone started looking around and going What the fuck is going on? He I think every you know, it's just started that that cycle. So I don't know how much depth you want to get into it. Like, we did, like, we did have a DVD distributor and digital aggregator approached us send a dime. So we actually went with them. Because, you know, I had known them for a number of years it was new video at the time. And they were really good to work with and, and then it was a matter of like, it's all filmmakers. Like, what I still want to see my film in theaters and how am I gonna market this film? And, you know, so, you know, someone, some company came along and said they were going to release it theatrically. And I said, Really? And even without any other rights. Yeah, yeah. And then that fell through. And so I ended up booking it myself for a while, but no, no four walls. Very proud to say no, I booked I function, I picked up the phone, and I sold the film.

Alex Ferrari 6:49
Oh, really? And explain it. Can you explain a little bit about how you did that how to get because that's a mystery to a lot of people how to get a theatrical anything. So what did you actually do?

John Reiss 6:57
I just, you know, it's probably a lot harder now. Because I think there's a lot of filmmakers. It's harder and it's easier because there's a lot of filmmakers trying to do it, but then there's a lot of Booker's who will work with independent filmmakers so but you know, then you have to pay a little money but you can still like you know, it's also easier because you can also use kg for instance. But you know, I basically call that you know, we fortunately, we had the, the pedigree of being in Tribeca and I also got a New York Times critics pick out of that, or no actually didn't that was we had a good quote from the New York Times because the critics came out during the theatrical release so we didn't actually have that yet. And you know, I just had a you know, I had a plan of how I was going to get butts in seats, you know, I was able to talk to them about my knowledge of who the audience was how is going to connect with them I basically you know, they don't want to hear how great your film is, they want to hear that there's an audience and that you know, how to get the audience into the theater. That's what they want to do and then that you know, I got a couple theaters and then they connected me to some other theaters and, you know, once you kind of get into a little bit of a circuit, you know, people go Okay, I'll try it. Even I ended up we ended up doing 25 cities, I think, nice time was

Alex Ferrari 8:11
for basically

John Reiss 8:12
a documentary. Yeah. for for for real. A document. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 8:17
Like for real? Like a real document with Yeah, with no big stars or anything like that. So it was just based on on the merit of the film itself.

John Reiss 8:24
Yeah. You know, and whatever salesmanship I potentially had, you know, right. And so, you know, what I was fighting against is I had a couple places that said, well, we'll give you one night and it's like, No, I have to have a week and you know, it's like it's you know, that's what's important to me a real theatrical and I was such an idiot, then you know, to be honest, right? You know, I was just like a typical idiot filmmaker who thinks that a theatrical release at conventional theatrical releases what you have to have and unfortunately there's now certain things kind of set in stone about for certain kinds of distribution you need certain kinds of requirements and so you know, for certain kinds of distribution deals you actually do need a theatrical you know, a seven week run but what I discovered while doing bomet is really the power of events and one night screenings because like I just been in Portland where you know, it was raining and you know, like no one was in the theater and it was like and that was the you know, the first night of the theater opening night and here the filmmaker was in town and you know, it just you know, in retrospect it probably wasn't the right theater for the for the film and also the rain and you know, it's a theatrical small film and just like you know, there's fucking five people in the audience now super depressing. But then I go to New Orleans, which was one of the cities that I was fighting, doing a one night screening and finally I just said, fuck it, okay, I'll do it. And I got there and there's lines around the block. They sold out the first screening they added and sold out a second screening and And there was an article in the paper and it was just kind of like, wow, there's something here, like, and that's when I discovered the importance of scarcity that, you know, if people can only go and see it on one night, then, you know, then they makes it that much more special interest, no interest. And I still think that that functions to some degree. I mean, now, you know, years later, later, oh, excuse me. Sorry. I've had a tiny bit of caffeine today I did. Anyway, I'm doing this meditation now where I can't eat or drink beforehand. And so that it, you know, I wasn't able to have breakfast until I wasn't able to do it until like, 11. So I missed all my morning caffeine. So

Alex Ferrari 10:45
at Fair enough, fair enough, no worries.

John Reiss 10:48
This will all be in the podcast, right? Of course, of course. So and so so that's kind of how the theatrical went. And that's where I discovered, you know, events. And, you know, and it really got me thinking about, you know, and now doing events for theatrical screenings is, you know, super sophisticated. Of course, it's really taken off.

Alex Ferrari 11:11
Now, can you talk a little bit about the distribution myth out there, that golden ticket syndrome that so many filmmakers still carry from, like the 90s?

John Reiss 11:20
I just can't fucking believe that people can I swear, I swear I will. Yeah, it's okay. Yeah, I mean, it's just like, okay, here's the deal. This will hopefully, sober some people up. There's around 50,000 films that are made every year. Maybe on a good year, 100 of those on a really good year 100 of those get some kind of deal that makes financial sense in the United States. You know, the golden ticket deal, maybe there's three to five, right, you know, out of 50,000 So, you kind of do the math, okay, on top of that, you have to understand that, you know, there's now about 700 years of video content uploaded to YouTube every month. And that every piece of content, book, music, whatever, that's almost almost every piece of content that's been created by humankind in the history of humankind is available to people so what happens when there's a super glut of supply and demand is constant or slightly increasing? price drops tremendously right? So you have so you have to figure out how your film is going to dent that oversaturated media landscape and you can't rely on someone else to do it for you no more like especially if you have a drama or comedy with if you have a narrative film with no stars done you know, it's so rough make it for a little bit of money you know and then save money for distribution because the chances are that someone's going to come and rescue you and distribution is next to nothing, you know, and so I mean frankly if you're in the business if you're in the film business for a golden ticket, you're in the wrong business. You know, they don't really and the problem is is that the ones the success stories are always hyper publicized and any deal is hyper publicized then partially people want to celebrate and partially people want to show look we're still in a viable business you know, but

Alex Ferrari 13:37
what's like they said it's like they say they always show the lottery winner but they don't show the lottery losers which is millions of them

John Reiss 13:44
the vast majority Yeah, exactly. Look at all the people who bought Willy Wonka chocolate bars and didn't get their ticket you know, right 1000s of dollars of that millions of chocolate bars sold and you know, five golden tickets

Alex Ferrari 13:57
like I come from I come from post I mean I've been a post supervisor for 20 years so I've been doing a lot I know deliverables and I've seen so many films come through my door and anytime I see a doc like a drama come through the door that's no stars involved and and they're like so what do you think I should do them like market to save some money and yeah, marketing should be like your main thing.

John Reiss 14:18
I mean, I think there's a few of us who feel like they've coined the expression that distribution is easy. Marketing is hard like yeah getting out there is relatively easy getting people to want to see your film is art. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 14:35
No So what do you how do you think a filmmaker should think about marketing their films in today's online world?

John Reiss 14:43
You know it all it all focuses it all goes to audience you know basically like to me whenever I talk to a filmmaker, I mean, this is what I the four basic things I go over Are you know, what are your goals? Like what do you want from the film Like not every, you know, you know, there's a lot of filmmakers who it's not about, you know, making money, you know, some of them need to recoup, some don't, you know, but there's other goals that, you know, the filmmakers have a variety of goals. And so there's a variety of paths that you can it go to achieve those goals? And I know you spoke about marketing, but I'm just kind of go sure no, no, sure. Yeah. Then you have to look at your film, you know, and like, what is unique about your film? What, you know, are there any, like in terms of marketing? Are there marketing hooks? And that's where, you know, like, Is there a cast, you know, what kind of audience what's unique about your film, and what's unique to the audience about your film, you know, and some of that deals with, you know, your title, how good is your film, like the one thing I also want to stress if there's a lot of young filmmakers listening that screen your film repeatedly to audiences, and especially the audience that you think your film is made for. And a, you may find out that that's not the audience that you made your film for the you might also get good feedback from that audience, like, you need to screen your film repeatedly throughout the process, save people fresh eyes, you know, show to a few people at first, then a few more, some people will come back and see it again. But most people won't. So really kind of like Be careful about how many times you screen it, and how many people come especially to the early screenings that you have to save some people for the end. But really make sure your film is as good as possible, because that's in terms of marketing, that's going to be the biggest marketing hook is having a really amazing film that people want to see. And so many filmmakers, I mean, I get a lot of edits, where the first thing I say is like, are you locked, and you know, the first thing you should think about doing is cutting your film, you know, way too long, or doesn't make sense or something. So then his audience, and you know, that involves identifying your audience, finding out where your audience consumes, media finds out about films. So identifying, finding out you'd like so who is your audience? What do they read? Then think about what kind of value you can provide to your audience, besides the film itself? Like, is there are is that what kind of extra content and assets you have? What kind of experience can you provide to them, etc. So there's a whole bunch of things that you can think about in that regard. And then lastly, you know, how does that audience consume media and different audiences consume media in different ways? And so that's how you would you know, kind of develop your strategy of your distribution strategy along those lines? And then lastly, are your resources like, what kind of resources do you have to release the film, and not only in terms of money, but also in time, you know, like sweat equity, or at your just people, like in the in money does help by people? But like, also, what is your time and what kind of, you know, how much time you have to

Alex Ferrari 18:15
write to invest in the marketing and in the word out, and the hustle and all that stuff? Yeah.

John Reiss 18:19
And then more and more these days, I've been, you know, also talking to this in the context of people's filmmakers careers, like, where does this film sit in your, you know, career pipeline is like, your first film that, you know, you know, is good, but knee, you know, there are certain things that you couldn't accomplish with it. And, you know, maybe, but you still want to get it out there. But you want to move on to another project? Or is this your magnum opus that you desperately definitely need? to get people to see? And, you know, etc. So, you know, that will also affect, you know, how you, you know, how forward? No, more of like, what path you choose? Yeah, just moving forward. But it's a matter of, there's a lot of different ways you can release the film, and it's a matter of like, you know, how are you going to, you know, release that.

Alex Ferrari 19:20
So, from what I'm hearing from what you're saying is there and this is something that most filmmakers don't do is a lot of analyzing, and actually thinking about the path, not just the making of the movie, which is what filmmakers generally all do is they just like, I'm just gonna get that camera. I'm gonna make my movie, but when the edits done, yeah, they have no idea and sometimes they'll just throw it out into the marketplace, if they even get it into the marketplace to see what would happen. So they don't think about what part of this is in my career path. What where's my audience? Is this a viable product for an audience that what audience is it all this? All these questions are not answered or even asked. So that's why so many I filmmakers fail. And right, it's wrong,

John Reiss 20:04
you know, and I, in my book, I kind of invented a crew position called the producer of marketing and distribution, you know, because so many, you know, films need kind of like advice and work on these aspects of the film, but the crew is, you know, doesn't have the skill set doesn't have time to deal with this. And so, you know, hoping I'm doing a couple things over the next couple of years that hopefully take place that, you know, will help, you know, kind of foster that crew position and help grow that and make it kind of something that, you know, becomes a part of, you know, hopefully, the crew, every film, yeah, you know, because, you know, I also, you know, kind of feel that he, in this sense, when you're done with your film, you're kind of half done, you know, it's like, I created this concept called the new 5050, where 50% of your time and energy should be spent on creating the film and the other 50% and the other 50% should be on connecting that film to an audience, you know, which is all aspects of distribution and marketing. So that's not a hard and fast rule. But like, if you look at any studio film, you know, it's even probably, you know, you make $100 million film and they spend $200 million marketing it does that is very true. That's like, 3565 You know, we're in favor of marketing and distribution, you know, so But, and there's a lot of indie films that end up that way, especially super low budget ones were much more spent on the marketing and distribution than was ever spent on making the film. Now with,

Alex Ferrari 21:47
with film festivals, so how do you how would you suggest to leverage film festivals in a self distribution strategy?

John Reiss 21:55
You know, first of all, I wouldn't worry about it tremendously. I mean, it's festivals are fickle, and highly competitive. But, you know, I generally, when you're in festivals you're in release. So there's two basic paths. One is you can use festivals to help build up your audience, to then make the film more either attractive to certain distribution entities or, you know, you know, build up some reviews, etc, some notability to help the release later. And then later you do a release, hopefully not too far from the festivals, but from the information you gathered during the release, and whatever accolades etc, you you gain, not through the release, but through the the festivals, and the audience that you develop, you can, you know, get, you know, you know, and then engage distribution the other way, which is a little bit hard because it's requires you to be pretty savvy and knowledgeable and prepare is to actually fold the festivals into the distribution process. So that you know, maybe and even some people are doing this at Sundance these days, like films a year do this at Sundance, where they actually use Sundance or a festival as their theatrical premiere. That's the launch of the film. And then either during the festival or shortly after they offer it on the VOD, Emil, you know, so that people who hear about the festival can then engage with the film, you know,

Alex Ferrari 23:26
and use the end leverage all the press that they got from a big festival, that guy

John Reiss 23:30
Exactly. So you can modify that to where you kind of like have a one or two festivals and then you're kind of ramping up and then, you know, the rest of your festivals are during are kind of like your theatrical release, or your VOD starts, you know, so it's, it's very fluid.

Alex Ferrari 23:45
So let me ask you another question. How crucial is it today you think to package ancillary products, with the films on all films website, like if you're selling it on your website, like posters and hats and T shirts, and you know, along with a DVD or VOD of your film, kind of like, like George Lucas vibe?

John Reiss 24:01
Yeah, I think that depends on the film. You know, I actually don't refer to those as ancillary it's more merchandising got it merchandise, and I'm a big fan of that in general, because, you know, depending on the film, you can make a fair amount of money that way, depending and it really depends on the audience, whether the audience whether there's things that you can make that the audience is going to buy if it's just a kind of conventional film, you know, printing a bunch of posters and T shirts, you know, unless I'm something special about the key art or the graphics or something you know, isn't going to mean a lot you know, but if there's like, you know, Gary who's to it is the, you know, documentary filmmaker who's amazing at this and he creates product his he makes films about, or he's made three films about design. And in his story, you can see this amazing range of range of products that he's created that people just love and eat up. So and you can make a fair amount money doing that

Alex Ferrari 25:01
even more than selling the movie sometimes

John Reiss 25:02
yeah we made more money selling posters of vomit than selling the DVD off of our store now the distributor so more than that but like we made you know we made much more money off of the posters then you know off of off of the DVD sales

Alex Ferrari 25:20
now what um what avenues would you suggest to get the best audience engagement

John Reiss 25:27
wow you know you know it's like there's no you know, there's like eight to 10 avenues of audience engagement and it just depends on the film you know, if I was gonna make a blanket statement I think crowdfunding if you're open to it is a good source is is a good tool for marketing. Digital Media is certainly important. And I don't just mean social media that's a component if you have a documentary especially around certain you know specific audience that's organized outreach is certainly important influencers important there's a lot that you know kind of goes into it and it all just depends on the film.

Alex Ferrari 26:06
Yeah, it's all topic it depending on if it's a documentary if it's an action movie, it's a drama

John Reiss 26:11
or a film like I'm working on a horror film now and that's its own audience and its own you know thing

Alex Ferrari 26:17
and now Do you have any tips on developing relationships with the audience once you have that audience?

John Reiss 26:23
Well just to keep them engaged in defining not certainly not to just talk about your film, but to talk about things that are interesting to them

Alex Ferrari 26:33
create content create content that keeps them keeps them engaged

John Reiss 26:37
and it could be just like how you relate to them on on social media could be photos could be you know, what you create on Instagram could be you know, because you're an artist think about like how you know your fans and that's how you're going to create fans that are gonna stay with you, you know, on multiple projects.

Alex Ferrari 26:57
So that would be that Yeah, that was my next question. How do you develop you know an audience to follow you from project to project and it's the instead of just doing like a one off movie, which a lot of filmmakers will just start and like okay, I'm just going to do all this press on this one movie but then when that movie is gone, that audience is gone unless you're building your name up as a brand or a company up as a brand.

John Reiss 27:17
Well no, I do feel like filmmakers need to develop themselves you know as a brand is where can i a lot of filmmakers object to that you know, but you know your brand you know, a tours or brands Yeah, Woody Allen's a brand Martin Scorsese, he's a brand don't my line. No, I yeah, that's like I say that all the time. Do you? Really I didn't never. Scorsese's a brand. You know, Spielberg's a brand. All these guys are of course, yeah, yeah. So you know, it's like you go to Joburg film, you generally know what you're going to get similar. Like, when you open a can of Coke, you know what you're going to get? So you know, you may not like that, but what you're trying to do is I cultivate audience that's going to pre you know, like and appreciate that. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 28:03
I kind of preach that with Woody Allen is he's one of these rare filmmakers who has been able to he's the only filmmaker I know, that's been able to make a film a year for like, 30 years, right? I mean, it's, it's insane. Like other filmmakers Look at him, like how, and He does it because he has a formula, he makes it really low budget has very great cast. But he's been able to develop, you know, everybody knows,

John Reiss 28:23
he's also a prolific and, of course, a good writer, too.

Alex Ferrari 28:27
And he's Woody Allen, you know, so he's built up that people go to see Woody Allen films, regardless what what they are those who just show up. But if you gave him a budget of $150 million to make a movie, not a good investment, generally, generally. So if you were making a film today, and I know this is gonna, I'm asking in a really broad spectrum, if you were making a film today, what would be broad steps that you can kind of a guide that you can give a filmmaker to get their film marketed and sold? very broad steps? I know, that's a big question. And you could go on for days on that. But just like basic stuff

John Reiss 29:02
is like if you say, if I'm making a film, which means that I haven't started charting, if I'm starting the process, correct. You know, I mean, there's a little bit of a chicken and egg thing is, you know, you want to it depends on what your goal is, you know, I would say that's the first thing like do I just want do I want to make that try to make a lot of money, you know, or do I want to, you know, change the world, you know, and so, that's, you know, I would really kind of like think about what my goals are. I would also look at, I'm just trying to give you know, more general helpful people, you know, I would think about the size of the the potential audience like who the potential audience is, and if the audience potential is small and you really have to be realistic, then you should really try to be conservative in your spend and what you you know, what you spend money on, I would also definitely Mart budget for distribution and marketing. And, you know, try to raise that money and, and set it aside, you know, in the best of all possible worlds.

Alex Ferrari 30:07
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

John Reiss 30:19
You know, if it's a script, I would make sure that the script is really in good shape before, you know, before shooting, or, you know, you could do an improv thing, and, you know, just depends, I don't want to be too restrictive, or about how people work. But if you have a script, just make sure it's tight notes. Yeah, tider police, it's good in some way, something excellent, something that needs to be made, you know, and maybe it needs to be made just because you have to do it. You know, but if you're getting a lot of feedback, that it's not for a lot of people, then just, I'm not going to tell anyone not to do anything, go make your film, but just realize that, you know, the audience might be small, and maybe you're gonna knock it out of the park, but just be cautious about how you, you know, proceed financially, if that's, if that's an issue for you. You know, and, you know, I would think about dipping, I would think about the film in relationship to, you know, in my career in terms of like, how do I want to do I want to develop an audience? Do I want to do how do I how am I going to go about developing an audience for myself, that, you know, I can bring from project to project, not that it, you know, in some cases, it can be sustainable, but it can have many different kinds of value in all different ways throughout this process. So you really want to think about developing some, you know, core fans, if you can, that are really engaged with your work

Alex Ferrari 31:47
like that. 1000 true fans. Yeah, article. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

John Reiss 31:51
And so you know, that I just make a really kick ass film.

Alex Ferrari 32:01
Which is always is always that should be always the bottom line of all of this conversation is just make a good movie. Yeah, and a lot of

John Reiss 32:07
it also, you know, it also think about, like, does it really need to be a movie? Like what other you know, it's like one other form? Like, what is? What is the form of content that's most suited to me as a as a creator, you know, and

Alex Ferrari 32:22
series short film,

John Reiss 32:24
or episodic exotic is then web series. Although that markets, kind of really blooded, but you really have to do something kind of unique, these days to stand out. Not that you always didn't, but you know, you're not going to get anywhere relying on the novelty of that, because it's not novel.

Alex Ferrari 32:45
anymore. Right. Right.

John Reiss 32:46
So you know, so those are some of the things I would say,

Alex Ferrari 32:52
no, what would, what do you think? What are your feelings on the news, self distribution marketplaces like VHS gumroad, Vimeo plus, as part of an online distribution strategy?

John Reiss 33:02
I mean, just, again, it all depends on the film and the path and the goals, you know, so, you know, I think they're all great tools. And, you know, if you are inclined to do the work to, to kind of get people to, you know, buy from you directly, then I think they're great. Some people will do it and not spend that work, and not really have that interest. And then, kind of what's the point, but I think it's wonderful, especially internationally, when it's so hard to release films internationally, especially in, you know, smaller territories, or like the vast majority of countries, you know, it's great to have that ability to have the film out there. You know, so, you know, I'm a big supporter of those always have been, you know, but again, it also always depends on what you're going to do. You know, he can be a fair amount of work. So you have to make sure that you're really committed to that and the reasoning for that and why you want to do that as part of the process.

Alex Ferrari 34:08
Now, you mentioned something earlier, I know the answer, but I want you to kind of explain to the audience at what an aggregator is, in regards to online distribution of VOD.

John Reiss 34:18
Sorry, say that again.

Alex Ferrari 34:19
Can you explain what an aggregator is? In VOD, an online distribution

John Reiss 34:25
to an aggregator is and that's, you know, that term shifting a little bit. I mean, there's certain aggregators that are now what used to be called aggregators, who were pretty much considering themselves distributed a lot of aggregators and become distributors. Let's put it that way. And so they're kind of functioning very similar. Are you hearing my dogs in the background? Does that bother you?

Alex Ferrari 34:46
It's fine. It's there's never there in the distance.

John Reiss 34:49
Yeah, good. Just because I am actually now in my garden. So my office was getting a little warm and stuffy, no worries. It's much nicer out here to talk out here. And just my dogs are a little annoying. So you know, an aggregator or distributor that functions, you know where VOD specific distributor, kind of like maybe in better hybrid term for certain companies, you know, they are, you know, they're the people you're going to need in some shape or form to get your film up on to online platforms. And such as the standard online platforms, not the direct to fan ones, which you mentioned earlier, those I would classify as direct to fan platforms. So to get up onto the commercial platforms, such as iTunes, Amazon, although Amazon you can do directly as well. You know, net flock, Netflix, Hulu, you know, the A VOD and s VOD platforms, you're going to need someone else which is generally an aggregator or distributor or VOD distributor to to access them. And you know, the thing that you need to think about, like, if you're all about being direct with the audience, creating a relationship with the audience, and you feel like you can sell to them, and they'll buy from you, and you have something so precious to them, that they will buy from you, you know, potentially direct the fan is the way to go, because you're not going to get the email addresses from it, you know, you're not going to get that audience connection. Chances are though Pete, most people like to buy media where they're comfortable buying it. So people are comfortable buying us iTunes, some people use Amazon, so you want to be on E Generally, the general recommendation is to be on as many platforms as possible, so that people have a choice of where to access your content. But there's some cases, as I said earlier, if you know, it makes sense to sell it direct, you know, like Louie ck, already had people who have large audiences, you know, they've done very well by connecting directly to his audience to the audiences, like he's that case is a great example of where he offered his comedy special to his supporters, five bucks each, within the day, I think he had sold a million dollars worth or a couple of days, something like just went crazy. So and he has that connection to the audience. And it's like, he made a lot more money on that than he would have in a lot of other different ways.

Alex Ferrari 37:23
So and I complete creative control to do whatever the heck he

John Reiss 37:27
wanted. Exactly. So but, you know, for others, you know, and maybe later, he then took that same thing and gave it to a distributor and aggregator who put it up on the rest of the platforms. So that, you know, you can sometimes, you know, when do it in such a way that your audience gets it first, you know, personally from you, although a lot of the platforms now for smaller films, we're not happy about that, you know, they want to be, you know, they don't want it sold on the market before they have, you know, before they're able to sell it. But no, I work with aggregators all the time, I generally recommended, you know, and, you know, most people want to be on those platforms. So, you know, that's kind of the way to go in general. So

Alex Ferrari 38:12
now, do you, do you see traditional? Or do you think traditional distribution is just going to tie off in the next five to 10 years? Like, what we know, as a traditional distributor today? Or is it just gonna morph,

John Reiss 38:24
I think it's just gonna constantly change, you know, I don't know what a traditional distributor is anymore. I, you know, there's, they're all changing, too. So, I mean, maybe there's some that are traditional, and some of those are going a little bit away, the ones that won't change, I think are kind of like, you know, shrinking and going away. But a lot of them are pretty savvy and, you know, in are adjusting to the marketplace. So, you know, you know, in a lot of the it's interesting how the, what used to be known as aggregators who are becoming distributors, and they, they are kind of like, a lot of what they do is what you would say, as a traditional distributed distribution model. So they're just becoming that now.

Alex Ferrari 39:10
So it's morphing. It's shifting. Yeah.

John Reiss 39:14
But I think, you know, there's certain aspects about traditional distribution that, you know, there's a look at it this way. The thing is, it used to be one size fits all, yeah, no, release it, you know, people thought it was one size fits all, I think there's a lot of films that suffered from being treated that way. And then now, there's been many, many ways to release films, you know, and so you can, you know, I think it's really important. You know, it's great that people have the opportunity to do this. And it's really important for people to choose, you know, the right path for their film.

Alex Ferrari 39:49
I think in a lot of ways that it's been such a, you know, over the last 100 years film has been done one way it was shot on film, it was distributed one way and it was done and then slowly Things have been changing and it's been now it's becoming so rapid like before was the invention of video cassette and that changed on TV and all that stuff and people started shifting with it but now things have changed they're changing so fast and the technology is moving so quickly that now you know a kid who'd never shot anything has access to a 6k camera you know to go shoot off a movie and I think a lot of people are it's kind of like the wild wild west and people are just like don't know what to do like and I mean everybody the studios the filmmakers are creators no one really has an idea yet and they're all just trying to figure it out and then like oh look over there he he made money let's do what he does and oh look over here that he did it so it's kind of like everyone's looking for a silver bullet but the thing is I think in my opinion there's just hundreds of different kinds of silver bullets depends completely get you been saying all on your film all on the filmmaker to be able to get it out there couldn't one way could work great for one but not work for another but it's just it really is nuts The more I talk to you know gurus like yourself I find it that's like it is really the wild wild west like especially in distribution online distribution is changing daily. Yeah,

John Reiss 41:10
I that's true but a lot of the fundamental principles are still the same, right? Oh, so you know, you know, or at least the same as you know what I was talking about five years ago and but yeah, things change, things are changing drastically. But like for instance, I you know, in my book six years ago, I kind of pointed out how digital you know, traditional digital and, and broadcast we're gonna collapse into each other. And that's a lot of what we're seeing in this last year. Is that actually happening? And where you know people there's television reviews for Netflix shows you know,

Alex Ferrari 41:51
they're nominated for Emmys I mean, they've won Emmys and and you know, all that it's crazy.

John Reiss 41:56
So it's all you know, they're they're all competing with each other, they're essentially the same, which is why in the book I basically classified all that is digital. That broadcast is digital, just like, you know, it's just a it's a different version of a VOD, or s. VOD, essentially, is what broadcast is and, you know, cable, your cable channels are essentially s VOD and subscription video on demand. Now, you don't in generally have are able to demand them like that. But you know, you can if you set the timer, or if you have access to the show, a lot of the shows are on video on demand. So, you know, it's like, all that's kind of blended. But, you know, to me, it's not so much of a surprise, it's just a matter of how you, you know, react to that to those changes, you know,

Alex Ferrari 42:44
do you see a future basically where an indie filmmaker is basically like and I think that futures here but that there are their own studio, they're basically little mini Disney's they, you know, this create a YouTube channel or, or website and just start pumping out content and connecting to the audience.

John Reiss 43:01
Definitely people doing that already. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 43:04
Right now, so yeah. And in the future, even more so and might be the might be the standard, as opposed to what? What's going on now?

John Reiss 43:12
I don't know. I mean, there is like, I think, you know, talking to be you know, there's certain I mean, I think certain Lee, I think there's going to be certain things that kind of rise to the top in the sense and, you know, and will be released in ways that feel familiar to you, you know, you know,

Alex Ferrari 43:33
like an example of God, like, I'm like, obviously, a big studio movie, that cost $250 million is not going to be released, I like to

John Reiss 43:42
look at look at, you know, tangerine, for example, rather than an iPhone, you know, it's at Sundance, and then gets picked up and then gets traditional distribution, you know, and, you know, I think, you know, and then that's another thing that causes everyone to think of the golden ticket.

Alex Ferrari 44:02
I know, not everybody with an iPhone now thinks like, I'm not gonna make tangerine and get right.

John Reiss 44:06
But the reason tangerine was, you know, successful, not because of being shot on an iPhone, not because it was made for whatever money not because of a good story well told, you know, with compelling actors, and, you know, it caught people's imagination, and it spoke to people, you know, so I think that that's, you know, I think, again, you can talk about distribution all you want, but you still have to make something that people want to watch, you know, and engage with. And that's either you're connecting to an audience that wants content specific kind of content, or you're making something that just, you know, speaks to whatever sides of audience you know, and and connects with them, you know, and so yeah, I think Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 45:03
so I asked so I asked this question of all this, this is gonna be the toughest question of the interview. So prepare your save that you save

John Reiss 45:10
that for last.

Alex Ferrari 45:11
I always ask this. Yeah, this is a last last question. So what are your top three favorite films of all time?

John Reiss 45:21
I have a list of like 25 It doesn't have to be in any specific order. I guess you know, the top three favorites that my top favorite films of all time, that are going to come out of my mouth now or just the ones I'm actually thinking about,

Alex Ferrari 45:33
right? Yeah, that's that's what I always ask. I know there's no definitive I'm not going to hold you to

John Reiss 45:38
A Touch of Evil. Just because I always like to kiss people off by not picking Citizen Kane. Oh, when

Alex Ferrari 45:45
I went off course. Yeah, no, no, no, look, I had I had like I was I was I had a friend of mine who's a dp an ASC dp and I had him on the show and I asked him the question, I was expecting some really obscure European, you know, Arty, farty stuff, and he's like, oh, Enter the Dragon was one of my favorite and I'm like, Wow, so it just all depends on what, what movie did for you at that, at that point, though, Touch of Evil.

John Reiss 46:09
Oh, and say, Enter the Dragon. Let's see, you know, there's also I often pick the director, you know, it's like, Who are my three favorite directors and then pick a film that's most meaningful at that time. So, you know, I'd have to do you know, 2001 or the shining, you know, for Kubrick, so, and then Wow, it's gonna be hard to pick number three out of all this, like, Do I go with Fritz Lang? Like, go with Scorsese? Do I go, you know, even Tarantino even though I hate to, you know, like hope fictions pretty amazing show. You know, I'd probably go with Scorsese, just because of Raging Bull and taxi driver, right? are two of the most amazing films ever made. And so if I had to pick one, I'd pick Raging Bull. You know, if I was forced to Sure. In a darker mode, I maybe would have picked taxi driver.

Alex Ferrari 47:05
It depends on the mood. You're in that day. Yeah. You'll notice there's no comedies. Yeah, generally I've never I have yet to hear a comedy in a top three. Generally people take film seriously. Oh, you

John Reiss 47:16
maybe see me to talk to some more comedians? Yeah, in Sakai because they'll probably a lot of them will say Caddyshack. crazyfly no

Alex Ferrari 47:25
Blazing Saddles. Yeah.

John Reiss 47:28
That hasn't really stood the test of time for me, I have to say although I still remember the been eating since you seem you know? Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 47:42
there's a lot now being a Kubrick fan. I always like asking this because since you mentioned Kubrick, you know, what's one of my favorite Kubrick films? It happens to be eyes wide shot.

John Reiss 47:52
Oh my god. I was glad when you said that. The I knew this was a setup because first of all, when you said Kubrick I'm talking about Kubrick I say it's gonna be something about I always chat so and then in then anyway, it I can't believe that's one of your favorite films what

Alex Ferrari 48:05
it is one of my it's not not it's not in my top three. But it's one of my favorite Kubrick films. And I do like and you don't like Kubrick didn't like that one.

John Reiss 48:12
Oh my god, it was just like, I just ignore that film. Okay, so hey, from Kubrick is just kind of like, Okay, that was a little misstep at the end. To think about it, you know, and that's why I don't know what happened here.

Alex Ferrari 48:28
It was a colossal, colossal mistake. We don't know what happened he was senile at the end.

John Reiss 48:35
On that I blame it on Tom Cruise before I blamed it on Kubrick's senility, although I thought he did okay for what he was supposed to do. I just think it was like a bit of a misfire and flawed and his story and concept way And

Alex Ferrari 48:49
like I said, like, That's the beautiful thing about film. Everyone's has every film hits the arc hits a person. Two different Tuesday for people hit art two different ways. Yeah. So regardless of it, so. So what can we pick? Where can people find you and find out what you're doing?

John Reiss 49:05
People can find me like if they're interested in you know, me consulting with them. I have a site called hybrid cinema that's going to be revamped soon. But you know, kind of shows some of the films I've worked on and has a link to have a consultation with me like a short consultation, see if it makes sense working together. You can also get that through john Reese comm which either the strategy or consulting link will link to that and you can find out something about me there and there's also contact and then you can also you know, follow me on Twitter, follow me on Facebook. And

Alex Ferrari 49:44
you do workshops as well, don't you?

John Reiss 49:45
Yeah, not as you know, not as much anymore for right now. There's something that might be happening soon, which will change that by you know, I mainly now participate in the ISP filmmaker labs. I'll go to events I'll do panels and stuff like that, but I haven't done I'll do the I've started doing more of these short kind of master classes. So those I still do occasionally. But I do, you know, I do those do those occasionally, but I'm just generally so busy, kind of like, you know, consulting with filmmakers these days that, you know, doing a workshop kind of takes a lot of time out and you know it just like then I'm backlogged with client work. And so I don't really, you know, I really try to just focus on going to certain festivals and events that, you know, I should be at and, you know, and you know, beyond some of the, do some things there, but occasionally I'll do some, you know, I'll probably do something I did a master class with the IDA last year, I think, you know, that was pretty well received. So I might do something with that them again in the spring, you know, just like a three hour morning class.

Alex Ferrari 50:58
So and can you list off the the books you wrote, so people know which books

John Reiss 51:02
I wrote? Well, so I've only co wrote think outside the box office, which is either available from my site or from Amazon. If you get it from my site, you'll be on my email list. And generally, I do kind of like case studies or, you know, kind of try to do extensive blog posts, you know, updates, you know, in my email list. And then, I co wrote, selling your film without selling your soul and selling your film selling your film outside the US. And I co wrote that with the folks from the film collaborative, Sherry Candler, you know, Jeff, Jeff winter, Orly revealed and then oh, my God, I'm forgetting the name of the fourth author of the second, Wendy Bernfeld. Okay. Yes. So and that's those are so in a sense, it's like, think outside the box office is a little bit of a roadmap kind of in then the other books are kind of case studies, kind of illustrating the, that's in my mind, they might, my co authors would probably scream at me right now. But, you know, there certainly weren't enough case studies in think outside the box office. And partially because not enough people had done anything by then. And, you know, and then and then the two other books are chock full of case studies. But also, you know, there's also some a, there's, you know, not everything's a case study, there's like analysis of certain, you know, kinds of, you know, distribution, like shared Candler in the first book, this is amazing thing on, you know, kind of, not peer to peer sharing your film online, and how that can potentially benefit your audience development and, you know, kind of like, counter intuitively, you know, increase your monetization, then a number of different examples, but all within, you know, a paradigm that she's exploring. So that's also quite interesting.

Alex Ferrari 53:02
It's like it's the wild, wild west, we're all just trying to figure it out. Yeah, a certain point. JOHN, thank you so, so much for being on the show, we really appreciate you taking the time.

John Reiss 53:11
It's good to be in the wild west. I mean, a, you know, we're in this time period where we're not like in the, in the Old West, you know, and we can't, we're not homesteaders, and the food's better and we're not going to get shot, and there's doctors to cure any diseases. So it's like, it's a much kinder, gentler, Wild Wild West than what used to what used to be like being in the film business in the 30s is a Far Far Cry than being in the film business in the 90s even or even today.

Alex Ferrari 53:41
Yeah, so definitely, yeah. So thanks again for being on the show. We really appreciate you taking the time, right? Man, I really appreciate john taking the time to come on the show and dump all of those gold nuggets on us the indie film hustle tribe, he has a really unique way of doing things as far as film distribution, we could all learn a lot from him. So if you want to get links to his work, his books, and his website, head over to indie film, hustle, calm, forward slash zero 43 for the show notes. And guys, don't forget, if you love the show, please head over to filmmaking podcast calm and leave us a honest review of the show. It helps our rankings so much on iTunes and really helps the show get to more and more people that need to hear it. So I really appreciate you taking the time to do that. So keep that dream alive. Keep the hustle going. And I'll talk to you guys soon.

YOUTUBE VIDEO

IFH 035: What Happens After You Win the SXSW Film Festival with Brant Sersen

Have you always wonder what happens to indie filmmakers who win HUGE film festivals like the SXSW Film Festival? Well, wonder no more.

I’ve invited one of my oldest friends onto the show, Brant Sersen, the writer, and director of the SXSW Audience Award-winning film “Blackballed: The Bobby Dukes Story” starring Rob Corddry.

Some other films he’s directed are ReleaseSplinterheadsand Sanatorium.

Over the years I’ve heard Brant tell me all sorts of stories about his misadventures in Hollywood. So if you are expecting a “Entourage” style story you’re on the wrong website.

What I try to do with Indie Film Hustle is to give you the no-BS info, stories, and experiences you can only get by being in the heat of battle. Brant Sersen’s story is no different.

Brant shares his ups and downs on the Hollywood roller coaster, what it takes to make it as a working filmmaker and shares behind the scenes stories of working with big-name talent. Enjoy the podcast!

Here’s the trailer to Blackballed: The Bobby Dukes Story:

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:04
Now today, guys, we have an old friend of mine, he's probably one of my oldest friends, his name is Brant Sersen and Brant a director he's been he's he's one South by Southwest, the Audience Award for his movie blackballed and has one ton of other festivals, as well as directing other feature films at different budget ranges. And he's told me stories over the years about his adventures in the film business, so I thought it would be a wonderful idea to bring them onto the show, and have him tell you his stories of what it's really like to win a huge festival like South by Southwest when the Audience Award which is a huge honor. And what really happens to someone after that, what the realities are, you know, it's not like he all of a sudden just got tons of money thrown at him. He went off made $100 million movie and the rest is history, which is where a lot of people think happens when you went big festivals. But what he tells you the truth of what really happened to him is different adventures, and so on. So get ready for a very entertaining conversation with Director Brant Sersen. And, Brat, thank you so much for being on the show. Man. We really appreciate you taking the time out. I know you're you know, very busy, busy. big Hollywood. mover and shaker.

Brant Sersen 1:24
Yeah, big, big time East Coast guy.

Alex Ferrari 1:27
So Brant, I wanted to have

Brant Sersen 1:29
Bigtime New York indie film scene guy.

Alex Ferrari 1:30
Yeah, exactly, exactly.So Brian, I wanted to have you on the show. Because we've been we've been friends for I just did the math, getting close to 20 years. Jesus

Brant Sersen 1:37
It's insane

Alex Ferrari 1:37
It's insanity.

Brant Sersen 1:38
So you're so old Alex.

Alex Ferrari 1:39
I know, I'm so old, even though you're three months older than me, anyway. And I will never let you that I'll never let that go. So I wanted to get you on the show. Because you've lived a very, your experience through the Hollywood system, or the filmmaking experience is very unique. And I've been front row center for most of it, if not all of it, actually, because you kept, we kept talking back and forth over the years about what you're doing. And we've had our long sessions of phone calls that we had while you were going through some of these experiences. So I thought it would be really educational, to kind of break down a lot of myths and also just explain how you got started because it's a fascinating story. So I want to start by asking you, how did we meet? And how did that whole? You know, unfortunately, how did we meet?

Brant Sersen 2:11
Unfortunately, I went to the University of Miami. Now I was at the University of Miami for their film school, which was pretty decent film school back in the mid 90s, I guess. And you know, one of the requirements of the film track that I was in that I had to intern somewhere so there was a list of places that all the students were given and I guess it was called asi Yeah, right. If I film works Yeah, if I film works was one of the places on the list I I was working with someone else. Through asi being a gopher, I don't I forget the guy's name. But he had me driving all around Miami doing the war stuff. But I got to see Miami a little bit by doing that. And I basically after like a couple of weeks of being Terra gopher for this guy, and not really learning anything. I said, I'm out of here. He said, well wait a second. And he introduced me to you. And you were sort of like, I guess that you were like the vault guy. Maybe I was

Alex Ferrari 2:59
I was the dubber slash vault guys slash Mac technician for the entire company. Back in the days when Mac's you know working network together with Apple POC cables. Right so and you came in I remember you came in and you're like, Can I intern for you, man, because like, it seems like you could teach me something. I'm like, Yeah, sure. And we hit it off from that point on and I don't even remember it.

Brant Sersen 3:12
I remember he came in just to introduce me to you and I sat with you for a little bit and I saw what was going on.

Alex Ferrari 3:15
I was editing reels. Yeah, I was editing

Brant Sersen 3:16
Yes, I was like, this is where I need to be not like, you know, picking up detergent and weird stuff. Yes. supermarket. Yeah, it was crazy. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 3:22
Which is which which, by the way if you're getting into the film business that you're going to be doing that a lot of times when you first start out is gonna

Brant Sersen 3:27
But you dont have to.

Alex Ferrari 3:28
Exactly. So yeah, I was editing on a three quarter inch tape on a Sony three quarter inch from deck to deck to editing demo reel for the commercial direct. It was a commercial so we're doing commercial real estate. Which, and then yeah, I didn't I don't even remember what I taught you did? What did you learn?

Brant Sersen 3:42
You taught me how to use a three quarter deck. Alright, cuz I didn't you know, they weren't teaching that in school, you know, and betas and stuff like that. I think that we got betas like, you know, everything was you know, we were doing everything on 16. So, you know, we were in that analog world. So we, you know, it was, you know, I was learning betas and three quarters and like, just it was like, Well, what are these giant tapes? Like, what you know, what is this

Alex Ferrari 5:31
Which is like stuff that you needed to learn for, like, at the time, that was the norm that was like job skills

Brant Sersen 6:06
That was like the Yeah, the three quarter tape was like v tape to pass around your reel on, right. So yeah, so and then it was just, you know, all the dubbing machines and all that stuff. It was, you know, I was not super techie. But like, that was I felt I was sitting in like, you know, the cockpit of the Millennium Falcon. It was like, it was pretty awesome. You know, like, just all the machines and stuff. And I was like, Yeah, I want to learn all this stuff.

Alex Ferrari 6:27
And I think and I think you came in, like, after maybe like, for like, three months or two months that I've had the job there. So it was like, yeah, cuz I interned I interned for the guy who had the job before for over three months, working for free every day, and just kind of like busting my butt until finally he left in the like, well, who's going to take the job. I'm like, I'll give it to Alex. He's been here for the last three months. And that's how I got the job. So enough about our dubbing times, let's get to some serious stuff. So after you left with me, you got you got a job offer, I guess, at the legendary propaganda films.

Brant Sersen 7:06
Yes. So I was living. I'm from New York, I grew up in a suburb just 30 minutes north of New York City. And when I went home, I ended up getting an internship at propaganda films, not knowing, you know, I was, I was going to film schools, I want to make movies, you know, I think I was still figuring out like, who I am and what I want to do, I, you know, my, I have to say, my mom was sort of, like, instrumental and pushing me down this road, because she saw early on that, like, you know, I was a big film, like love Star Wars and all those kinds of movies, and I was into, like, special effects. And she's like, you know, you're going to go to Hollywood and be a special effects guy, you know, so that was like, my first You know, that's why I thought I wanted to do and then you know, as you get in film school, you learn like, I'm gonna be a director, I'm gonna be running this stuff. So. So you know, I was a film guy, and I kind of knew someone that was over a propaganda through someone else. And I went there, and I interned for a week during my like Christmas vacation, just for a week. And I think that first day, I was there, interning the guy that I was, so I got an internship for propagandas in their vault. And so I was doing everything that you taught me, I used those those skills, and I brought them to New York where I excelled. I was editing on three quarter decks, you know, back to back betas. And you know, but it was for directors like Michael Bay and David Fincher and Tom Fuqua and then spec journalists and those guys yeah, little did I know that they had, you know, a little smaller company satellite films, which had spike Jones and then they had partisan that had Michel Gondry, and all of a sudden I am sitting in this place where it's like, the biggest directors,

the biggest commercial and the commercial at the time now there Yeah, biggest in the film that

Yeah, none of it made. I think David Fincher was, you know, I think he was just finishing up with Fight Club when I was there. Right. And, and he broke it. Yeah, so it was, you know, but anyway, yeah, so that I have some my first day. They were like, my boss was like, Hey, we're gonna go to this shoot. One of our directors is shooting a music video for Daft Punk. Like, who's Daft Punk, but I'll go, you know, and they're like, Oh, it's spike Jones. I'm like, Ah, what? So? Yeah, it was like, a few blocks away. We walked over and we watched spike Jones shoot a Daft Punk video and

then it's that it's the it's the one we all remember right? It's like that the dog

the dog walking around the East Village. Yeah. So if you look really closely, there's like a couple scenes where you see me like shopping for fruit in the background or like walking by with a backpack. But I was super excited because spike Jones was sort of, you know, when I really knew what I wanted to do, you know, I grew up skateboarding and unknowingly I've been you know, I was watching skate videos and there was one called mouse and one called goldfish and Who knew that spike Jones made those and it made sense because these were like the coolest, like skate videos. And then, you know, he was, you know, pretty instrumental. And you know, where I am now as far as like getting into this business because, you know, I was just sort of like a skate punk still trying to figure stuff out. And then you know, watching those videos was like, Oh, this is what I want to be doing. And then yeah, so then finding out that spike Jones was that propaganda was just like I won the lottery. So you know, now graduates, Yeah, go ahead.

Alex Ferrari 10:29
No, so so and I remember because when you got into propaganda, I was like, super excited. And I was like, Oh, and I think I visited propaganda. Yeah, I was in New York, doing some work and I got to take the tour of propaganda which was so much fun, like walking around that kind of environment. I'm like, Man, you get to work your every day. Yeah, it was super fun. And then I remember you, you were always so kind. And you would edit demo reels of David Fincher Michael Bay, Spike Jones Fuqua all the big direct and you would mail them to me on spin owns on the propaganda dime, which I appreciate and and I would get these like I still have those By the way, I still have them in in my archive somewhere relics, their relics and some of the stuff was like, you know, Michael Bay's commercials that no one's ever seen or David Fincher his early work or spike Jones like you know, I think was is a spanking

Brant Sersen 11:27
Dinosaur Jr. stuff

Alex Ferrari 11:28
Yeah, like this crazy stuff that no one will ever see. But I haven't I have it I have it on VHS so it was so cool. And I was learning a lot while you were sending me though so it was like it was it was like having a connect a pipeline into propaganda which, if you guys don't understand propaganda film was was the largest commercial music video house in the world. For a long time before they they finally there was nobody else like there was no one even close because of the staff of people. I mean, Michael Bay, David Fincher, Spike Jonze, Fuqua, Michel Gondry, and the list goes on and on with these amazing directors. So, it was, it was a ton of fun. So after that, you Yeah, after that, you did that for a little while, and then you jumped over to Comedy Central,right?

Brant Sersen 12:14
Yes, sort of so like, you know, when I was at propaganda, you know, what I started doing actually, while I was in college, so I started doing a documentary. And, you know, I was I sort of discovered music for the first time down there, you know, punk rock, and I started just sort of documenting like the scene that was like around me down there because I was so enamored by it, and I loved the music and I love the people and that documentary, I worked on it for a few years while I was at propaganda and was interviewing bands and people up and down the East Coast for a couple years. Until we finished it. And you know, that was that was my first film you know, I think I did a music video for that.

Alex Ferrari 12:58
Yes, I edit it. Oh, God,

Brant Sersen 13:04
we were just talking about getting over that fun stuff. Right? I forgot about

Alex Ferrari 13:07
it was like a really like was thrash band.

Brant Sersen 13:09
It was a Miami hardcore band called brethren Bradbury. Yeah, we took over a club. I had no idea what I was doing. But I shout out 16 Yeah, the cool thing was I in college, I was in the production track of film, I switched over into the business track because I felt like what I was learning in the classroom, like that would take me a semester to learn, I could learn on like, in one day on the set of one of my friends films, so I switched over into the business track just to like, you know, see what they're saying about producing and marketing and distribution because that stuff is so important, you know, in film, and I think it's like you know, people they don't they forget that or they don't realize at the time when they're making a movie how important that part is, and it was like in one of those classes where I forget the professor's name but he said something about finding your niche and I was sitting there in the seat and I'm like, Oh my god, I know my niche. It's like, I go to these shows every every weekend watch these bands play where like they're skinheads on one side. And then these like, Cuban hardcore guys on the other end surfers and like they're fighting outside, but they're like, total bros inside and it was just a really unique scene. So I started documenting that and interviewing the bands. And one of the first bands I interviewed was blink 182 before they were anybody, and and then from there, the list grew. And, you know, I worked on for a couple years. And then, you know, we played at a film festival, the New York underground Film Festival, which was started by Todd Phillips, and we had a great screening. It was my first taste of, you know, showing a film in a theater with an audience and having to do a q&a and, you know, getting razzed, like left and right, you know, it was great, but I was hooked after that, you know, so then, you know, after that film, which was called release, one of the bands was a New York hardcore band, they sort of hired me to do their rockumentary. And so I spent a year doing that. In between working at propaganda films and Comedy Central, so that was great because I interviewed like, rancid and the mighty mighty bosstones and all these big bands at the time. And you know, and that did great. And these were two, you know, videos that were distributed worldwide through you know, independent video labels like the record labels and they did great.

Alex Ferrari 15:18
And you actually made money with them.

Brant Sersen 15:20
I made I release I made money we the first one, for sure I made it, you know, you know, paid myself back and decent not a lot of money. But no, no, sir for like a 21 year old, I was happy. Right, and then I, and then sick of it all was the band, I, they paid me to do that film. So flat, right, I ended up probably spending money out of my own pocket because they ended up cutting the budget in half while we were midway through and I had like an editor and a visual effects guy I was working with and I don't want to leave them hanging in this film was actually important to me, I was like, really emotionally invested in it. And I wanted to see it done. So I think I just like I threw an extra couple 1000 in there just to like finish it, you know, pay my guys. And then so during that time, I wrote a I wrote this script that got a little traction. Somehow I was a producer in New York, who ended up getting ICM interested, and some another producer out in LA. And it was called Jimmy the dragon. And it was a comedy about these backyard wrestlers. And you know, I just came off of these two documentaries. And now I am like, in on the phone talking to like ICM, this packaging agent. And they're talking about, you know, these million dollar budgets. And it was like, Whoa, and they're like, yeah, and we're thinking about Jenny McCarthy. And we want Jenna Jamison for this part, because she was all big time at the time. And it was like, you know what's going on? You know, we started, we started casting in New York, and I couldn't believe what was happening. I'm like, 2223 years old, and this movie's coming together. And then 911 happened, and 911 happened, and everything fell apart after that, of course, and that's so yeah, so it was just like the brakes were put on the project died, you know, everyone sort of like retreated back to where they were for a little while. And you know, one of the things that I learned during this whole thing is, you know, I didn't have anything to fall back on, I put all my eggs in one basket with this one film. And when this project fell apart, I literally had nothing because I was, you know, generating my own ideas and shooting my own stuff. You know, I wasn't in a position where people were going to hire me to direct anything, because, you know, I did a couple documentaries on bands, but like, you know, I just wasn't at that place. So that is when I took this job at Comedy Central working in their vault, basically.

Alex Ferrari 17:48
I'm responsible for your careers while you're telling me.

Brant Sersen 17:51
I don't forget. Yes, yes. So yeah. You're under your tutelage I learned. Then I yeah. And it

snowballed from there. The Oscar. Did you beta? Of course.

Yeah. Yeah. So then I got this job at Comedy Central. And after I walked in, and I said, on day one, myself, I will be here for three months tops. I just need a little cushion health health benefits. Just to like, keep me you know, the float me for a little while, why I get this, because then I had this idea that came to me like a week before I got the job. And it was like, a little movie that I thought of that I was like, I'm going to shoot this movie. I'm going to do it for no money, because that's the only way I think I could do it. And you know, I'm gonna just beer, you know, for like, no time. Sure. And, you know, I think three months turned into like, three years. But regardless, that film was blackballed. The Bobby Duke story, and that's when I thought of this idea. I partnered up with a friend of mine, who just started to manage some people in New York. And we used to go to comedy shows all the time. And, you know, we spent a lot of time at the UCB theater back in the early early days. And, you know, I told him my idea, and he's like, yeah, let's make this. Like, let's put some of my guys that I'm going to represent in this thing. And you know, it's a win win for both of us. So, you know, I would go down to the theater with them UCB theater, and we'd watch and basically I just sat in the audience and was like, Oh, I like this guy, Rob kubal. For this part, and man, Rob Riggle would be great for this part and Paul Scheer for this and john Ross Bowery for here and john, you

Alex Ferrari 19:28
had like this insane cast

Brant Sersen 19:31
blackballed because my friend Brian Steinberg, you know, he introduced me to this, this comedy scene in New York that, you know, wasn't really big yet, you know, still very small. So yeah, I was up, you know, in the way beginnings when UCB started and saw all those the pillars of UCB like just getting started. And you know, I, I kind of put together this mockumentary paint ball story, you know, and I figured coming from documentary like a nice transition into like narrative filmmaking was like a mockumentary, you know, you know, it felt it felt natural. It felt, you know, comfortable for me to try that first. So, you know, we were we were lucky that, you know, Rob Corddry signed on to play the lead character, Bobby Dukes and, you know, we filled in the casts with, you know, I could go through the list and no all and yeah, and people. And you know, and so we spent one summer every weekend shooting that movie. And, you know, not knowing what we were going to get, you know, I wrote the story, it was like, on 20 pages, and the movie was improvised, you know, a dialogue. And we just went out every weekend based on Rob core juries, his daily show schedule at the time, because I think he just got the gig. So you know, he had to do put in his time and he wasn't messing around with it. So he's like, Bran, I'll give you a Saturday and Sunday here next week, I could do give you a Sunday, the following week, I'm gonna be in Minneapolis covering this. And that's, you know, so it took a while to get that movie done. But when it did, and when we started putting it together, you know, we had something special. And I got the producer who was who set up the Jimmy the dragon movie, to take a look at basically for our rough cut of this of this film. And he was like, okay, we're on board, like, we want it on this movie. And I said, I need you because I'm not a producer. I was able to pull this thing together. But I need you now. And together. You know, we, you know, we started talking about like, you know, what are we going to do when we're like, I guess film festivals, I didn't really know much about some festivals other than that New York underground, and that was sort of like a fluke. So you know, we, he they submitted and, you know, I heard of South by Southwest, you know, I didn't know much about it. And there were some other ones I can't ever remember. And I got a call and I was like, Brent, we we got a call from South by Southwest, they want the world premiere. And it's like, okay, and you're like, like, what? South by Southwest? Yeah. So So then, you know, then it's like, well, let me see what this is all about. And then it's like, oh, uncredible so we we so we saw blackballed premiered at South by Southwest, big audience reaction. And it was one of the best, best moments of huge audience we played in the convention center. It was sold out, it was, I was sitting with caudry and shear and Owen Burke, and a couple guys from the crew. And Brendan Burke was there. And, you know, we have this he-man opening sequence that's like, you know, two, three minutes long for the credits. And after the credits ended, there was basically a standing ovation. We were like, What is going on? It was the people were clapping, we'd have corgis looking at me, like what's going on? was the most incredible experience of my life. Like, I mean, the audience in tech in Austin was like incredible. They, like everyone laughed at the right places. Every single joke hit, like everything worked it. And then it was the biggest like applause at the end of the movie. You know, the movie ended. You know, we were like on another planet. caudry runs out of the theater. I always remember this. I'm like, Where are you going? We have to go do q&a. He's like, no, I got to go to the bathroom. So I'm down there in standing in front of like, 600 people with sheer and are my editor Chris LeClair who's doesn't talk much. And I gotta like this is the first is like the biggest group of people I've ever talked to in my life. And I'm like, Where's cordrea? Like, this is what he does, you know, right? And, you know, so they, the, they start asking questions that I'm like, you know, then Corddry comes running in, he gets a huge applause and we ended up having a great q&a, you know, then we had this after party, after the whole thing. And then, you know, you start getting business cards, Hey, man, I love your movie, you know, what are you doing next? Can I interview you, you know, I got this site, hey, you know, I want to talk to you about this project, you know, that we think you'd be right for and you start getting all these people, like, you know, just kind of telling you all this stuff. And then you know, the week goes by, you know, a couple days go by, and they have the award ceremony and we're like, Let's go, you know, see what happens. And we ended up winning the Audience Award. And that was pretty incredible. And then there was a big party after the festival for that. And then the same thing, get all these people, you know, here's my card. Here's my card. Here's my card.

Alex Ferrari 24:19
So, so so the after after you got your after you won the Audience Award, you're approached by studios, producers, agents, all that kind of stuff, right?

Brant Sersen 24:29
No studios, producers? I don't any agents that I don't know. No agents, not one. Oh, no, sorry. Yes. 181 agent acted me from what agency? He had his own agency, the same name. It was like

Alex Ferrari 24:49
so I guess so.

Brant Sersen 24:50
I think we had the same name because I have an unusual name, but I think his name is Brent. That's all I remember. Okay. And so, so yeah, I just want the audience toward you know South I guess it was getting big I don't know if studios were like you know looking at their shopping you know I don't know if it was maybe a little too early maybe like some of the bigger films now let me remind you sup my cast they were nobodies besides Rob Corddry right they were nobodies no one knew who they were and we shot the this film on the Panasonic I think was the dv x 100 when they first introduced 24 p

Alex Ferrari 25:28
with not even the 100 A the 100 100

Brant Sersen 25:31
yeah 100 100 so and and my my two camera operators they were just like one of them was like a guy I worked with at Comedy Central and then another guy was just like a friend of a friend. So it was like yeah, push this red button, you know, because it's a great

Alex Ferrari 25:49
you know, it's a mockumentary so you can get away with it yeah

Brant Sersen 25:51
you know and you can get away with it but like it It didn't look it looked like an indie you know I'm saying not so so so but to go back to your saying getting I was approached by a couple couple producers mostly like journalists But no, no way no, no like big agents or studios. So

Alex Ferrari 26:13
that was one of the things I wanted to talk about about you know, a lot of people think you went to a festival like South by Southwest or Sundance or Toronto or or any of these big festivals and all of a sudden you have a golden ticket. They write you a check and they go Come this way. Here's your next $20 million movie and so on. Which is the myth it's the Cinderella story that we've all been told. But the reality is that it's not true at this point you've gotten some traction you've gotten some attention and now the real work starts for you as you continue to try to build your career after this it didn't open any it did open some doors for you right

Brant Sersen 26:51
it kind of did you know but you went to a

lot of other festivals after this I remember you telling me like Hawaii festival was really cool when you win a

festival like no no that was splinter heads well when you when you win a film festival what generally happens is like a big festival like South by Southwest you will be invited to play at other festivals you know they waive the cost they don't even like they just want your movie to play at the festival because you you just wants up by Southwest so obviously there's a reason to programming so we we played I don't know we'll be played so many festivals for maybe like the next year after South by Southwest and we want a bunch and we play we play up in Boston we played a phi we played you know all over the country everywhere and we and we want a bunch of awards and it was a real like you know festivals festival goers like love the movie and what as like you know after like maybe like six months it's like alright we're going to Atlanta now now we're going to New Orleans and now we're going down to Sarasota and now we're gonna fly back up to Woodstock and we're going here but like the one call that wasn't coming was a distributor like

yeah I was gonna ask you like I can I can I do you mind me asking you what the budget was on this

we shot senate up sorry we shot blackballed for all said and done maybe $50,000

Alex Ferrari 28:08
Okay, so at this point no one's made any money yet.

Brant Sersen 28:11
No, no one's made any money and no because we haven't made we haven't made one now There hasn't been even a talk about a sale Okay, so you know, my so my producers were working on it. And I guess the feedback that he was getting was that you don't have anyone famous in your cast. You have a studio vibe movie with a with an indie look. And the distributors and there were a couple of distributors I just take that back there were some distributors that the producers were talking to, they didn't know what to do with it. They didn't know how to market it. They didn't know they just didn't know what to do. And that's basically it like it was easy as that you don't have any famous people it looks to indie we don't know what to do with this thing. We're moving on and that's what happened even though we you know, won a ton of garnered all those awards and their audience awards to like it, you know, and it so it did great with the people but you know, but studios didn't see it make any money and they passed. So how did how did how did you finally get this thing distributed? So what we ended up doing is you know, we we did get some like straight to DVD deals that were horrible. You know, it's basically like give us your movie for free. And if you ever see money, good luck, you know, but we decided let's like Hold on tight. We know we have something special and we self distributed and you know, I no one was really doing that back then. But we sort of had like a niche audience. We had the paintball audience, right? That was like and paintball at the time. Like you could walk into a Barnes and Noble and there would be five or six paintball magazines on the shelf. So you know, paintball is actually big, you know? So we were like, Alright, we have the paintball audience and we sort of like a comedy audience because we have these, you know, these comedy guys that we're actually within that year of after premiering south by They're some of them started getting traction like jack McBrayer got on 30 rock and all sudden he was famous and Rob Porter was like oh we should put Jack's face on the cover of the DVD and then we'll sell them you know you know so we did a 12 city theatrical release in small theaters you for Walt it yeah

Alex Ferrari 30:17
we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show

Brant Sersen 30:29
and we hired a bunch of like interns and people to work with us and we sat in an office and we made calls to like or we got on message boards and like local comedy groups in the towns that we were playing we got in touch with paintball fields and we just set up you know we just did that way and we and we played theaters and you know we did we did 12 cities total we didn't do any we did we did actually New York played I think for like two weeks at the two boots pioneer theatre when it was still around and that was and that was great. And then after that, we shout factory a big you know, DVD distributor they wanted to do like some big unique deal with us and it was money to pay back over investors and for everyone to get paid a little bit and we took that deal and they made like a big deal with with Best Buy and you know and and you know financially we everyone got their money back which I was happy about the investors and everyone made a little bit of money but then basically that was the end of that run with that movie like that it ended up like on DVD you know and I remember Netflix and then eventually I then oh then Netflix definitely picked it up. And you know and as these guys in the film have just gotten so famous now Netflix just keeps picking it up and they pay each year or each you know each quarter or whatever it the price goes up a little more which is it's been amazing

because yeah because now there's so much traction on the stars they're huge star yeah

yeah you type in Hot Tub Time Machine, you know for Rob cordrea and then you may see a little picture of you may also like blackballed you know so so it gets a lot of planes so you know, you know so i mean blackballed as a you know i to me I mean that was my my one of the best movie making experiences of my life and you know, it's been a great calling card for me and you know, it's always it you know, it sort of became this like cult phenomenon. I you know, I take meetings and people find out you did blackballed. That was like my favorite movie and you know, I hear stories how the Patriots were watching blackballed on their tour on their bus to different games like I've heard the craziest stories about this movie. So awesome man, you can still search twitter and yeah, people are just discovering it and it still holds up you know it's just it just you know, I had a great great cast and I'm

Alex Ferrari 32:53
gonna put the trailer to all your films on on the show notes and I just actually before we start talking like let me refresh my memory and I watched the trailer to the blackballed and I'm like this that's funny as hell it was it was cool to see Rob I mean Rob 4g was so young I mean he was me 20 years ago almost one on that 2015 years ago or something like that when you did it but it was just fun to see all these guys like super young but they were still them like they have their their timing and their everything was there so I was always I was always not only proud of you for doing that you know but just I was so happy that you were you know seeing a friend of mine kind of get their stuff off the ground and then get traction and then win a big fight like you're the first friend of mine that won a huge like a huge festival and that got a movie release then everything of all the people all my filmmaker friends so it was always like man that's so much fun and then and then starts the whole journey of what happens after like okay so now so be playing blackballed and your movie splinter heads there's a gap of about four years right four or five years right

Brant Sersen 34:03
there it Oh, may I see blackballed played South by Southwest 2004 we premiered splinter heads 2009

Alex Ferrari 34:12
So yeah, five years but five years so what were you doing

Brant Sersen 34:16
between premieres but um right yeah, so I stayed at Comedy Central I was still a comedy I Comedy Central at the time wasn't owned by MTV, which was great and they gave me a leave of absence to go and edit blackballed after we finished blackballed I editing. I went back to work at Comedy Central because I still need to, you know, pay the bills, right? So I stayed, I stayed and I so then I blackballed. We went through the whole thing. I went on all the film festivals, did that for a while, and I was I was working on my other script, splinter heads, while you know, touring with blackballed and working in Comedy Central, and that one was going to be another indie film, and I was working with the same producer that I worked on, I would get blackballed with it. And he was putting together the financing he actually was able to pull the financing together because of blackballed. So as soon as splinter heads got all the financing together, I gave my notice to comedy, and I never looked back. I then I I stepped into the scary world of you know, being a freelance director

Alex Ferrari 35:20
which we could talk about that in a little bit.

Brant Sersen 35:25
Yeah. So then, yeah, then split our heads.

Alex Ferrari 35:29
So Brett, how did you get splinter heads off the ground?

Brant Sersen 35:32
I Well, my producer Darren Goldberg and Chris Marsh they took the scripts they they were doing some other films that were doing fairly well in the film festival circuit and I think that a couple small sales so they actually had some investors that were looking to get into comedy and we were able to pull together we basically Yeah, we pulled together all independent financing for that movie and and that was how we got that one off the ground

Alex Ferrari 36:02
that was a fairly larger budget than 50,000

Brant Sersen 36:05
the Oh yeah. Yeah, you know what that one was, you know, just over a million okay, but for me was you know

Alex Ferrari 36:17
wait a minute that film was over that was that film was just like a little bit over a million bucks Yeah. Oh, that looks awesome. I thought I honestly thought it was like a $5 million.

Brant Sersen 36:26
No, well, look, we're one of the first movies to shoot on the red. Oh,

Alex Ferrari 36:31
and you had a good dp

Brant Sersen 36:32
we were we were and we had a great TP and we were featured heavily on the red website

Alex Ferrari 36:37
I remember being one of the first first movies that's

Brant Sersen 36:41
Yeah, yeah that movie sort of like you know that agents Okay, so you know, so what ends up happening is that movie is I write splinter heads and then we're casting and then you know, we get all of our covering agents at all the agencies and every everyone all the agencies like love it they you know, we're getting some crazy names thrown around. And you know, so I get I get Rachel Taylor who signs on and you know, some of the you know, some of these other names were I don't want to say you know, it's a lot of names were like being thrown out and they are sorry,

Alex Ferrari 37:24
yeah, you're there.

Brant Sersen 37:25
Yeah, sorry. My phone just went mazurka. Okay.

Alex Ferrari 37:29
Alright, started up.

Brant Sersen 37:30
I'm trying to think of I am trying to figure out how to answer this question of like, how this got off the ground

Alex Ferrari 37:34
working from a micro budget movie like like blackball to go into an over million dollars movie like splinter heads. What was the experience like working because I know you told me it was a very difficult shoot for yourself. Can you elaborate a little bit more about why it was a difficult shoot and what was the experience with working on a larger budget and obviously, since it was a larger budget, you must have had less control because blackball you had complete control and you could do whatever you want it because it was you this was a little bit different. So can you explain to the audience a little bit about what your experience was like working on your fur and also your first thing right off of blackballed as well so you're still you're still you're still green, you're still wet behind the ears. Yeah, a lot of ways.

Brant Sersen 38:21
Yes. Especially Yeah, okay. Well, I think in essence they're they're exactly the same a small film and a big film it's just more people and as far as like the like the day like you know, everything is exactly the same like you're the casting the way we went about everything was the same it's just on a bigger scale. And I guess the the big thing is there's there you have more cooks in the kitchen and you have a there's a lot of like levels that you have to get through to get approvals for certain things. I mean, politics You know, this producer needs to sign off on this person's yeah politics you know, like then then investors you know, like this particular movie had one very large investor that finance a big chunk of it and part of I guess the deal that was said with it with him was you know, they had to sort of sign off on certain people and that was difficult for me because they were saying no to people that I liked and so I it was that was a very difficult thing for me because I felt like I was losing control over my vision a little bit and my vision was being taken over by other people that you know, that are that are weren't getting it. And so that were that was where my the frustrations began and continued through because I was right basically, you know, it I also learned, you know, there are certain battles, you got to just really pick your battles with certain things. And I think I was picking some of the wrong ones. And, you know, that was Yeah, that those were like some frustrations with this, you know, I was able to in the end, though I, you know, I put up a huge fight about our lead actor who ultimately went to Thomas middleditch. There were some pretty big names that were circling the roll, and I wasn't feeling them. And I, you know, I saw Thomas middleditch, at this little, this little comedy club. And as he was brilliant, and I saw him and I knew right away, that was the lead of my movie, and I need to somehow make, I have to persuade everyone, I got to do hypnosis, I got to figure something out to get these guys to like, sign off on this guy. And I dragged everyone to a comedy show that he was playing, he had no idea this was happening, by the way. And I filled the audience with like, we had like five producers, a couple investors were all sitting there. And he was brilliant, thank God. And, you know, we had an audition. And we were, that was like, the one thing that I'm like most proud of is that I was able to get Thomas middleditch, you know,

Alex Ferrari 41:14
in that role, and now he's the star of Silicon Valley, right?

Brant Sersen 41:18
And then he just so happens to go on to Silicon Valley, right?

Alex Ferrari 41:22
What do you know? What do you what do you know, I know, what do you do? So that film goes on. And obviously a bigger budget gets distribution. And you also you've also premiered it at South by Southwest and you did a bunch of other stuff with that film correct?

Brant Sersen 41:37
Yeah, so so splitter edge was fantastic shoe, I was shooting on a red camera. It was incredible. I had playback on a movie, which I didn't even know what that was, you know, that it was pretty amazing. Getting some of the gourmet like the tools, you know, I gotta say, you know, that's amazing.

on a on a million dollar budget. You it's not like you just went on to a Marvel set for 200 million bucks. You This is a million dollar budget.

Yeah, no, but you know, for me, yeah, of course. No,

Alex Ferrari 42:01
exactly.

Brant Sersen 42:02
Like, yeah, that was like, Whoa, I have a giant monitor. I could see everything. And we could rewind it and look at stuff. That was it was incredible. Right. So so we finished up splinter heads. And we were asked to come and premiere at South by Southwest. And so we premiered there, and then went on and did the festival circuit, we picked up a couple awards at different festivals. And then, unfortunately, you know, that movie looked like a studio movie. I think it was a decent rom com It definitely has its fault scenarios. But you know, not not too shabby. But then the recession hit and I don't think that year 2009. I think there were like a handful of sales at Sundance that year. And I think none at South by Southwest. So it was just a horrible year for any filmmaker that premiere movie, I think, right? And that's what I remember. So, you know, we you know, we, you know, we had a digital deal. We had a DVD deal. You know, we did all you know, all those ancillary distribution deals and a couple small little international things

Alex Ferrari 43:09
in the end. Right, exactly. And then and then the movie finally make its money back. No, okay. Okay, fair enough. It. It has not okay. And that's it. It's just it was the bad timing. But yeah, so let me I was Yeah. So let me ask you a question. How was it? How was it working with Marty McFly? His mom.

Brant Sersen 43:31
Lee Thompson was fantastic. Now she was great. And, you know, that was you know, I learned a lot actually from her. Obviously, you know, she's been on a million sets. You know, she was in one of my favorite movies of all time Red Dawn. The original you know, Howard the Duck, you know, she was sharing the craziest stories about stuff but yeah, she was like a real pro. And, like, Alright, kids, get back here. We're gonna do another take, like, you know, he

Alex Ferrari 43:57
was a she was Mama. She was mama hand. Oh, she was

Brant Sersen 44:01
my mom to set for sure. But she was you know, she was amazing. And she was like, really such a hard worker. And, you know, it was a great collaboration with her.

Alex Ferrari 44:11
Sure. Awesome. So then you go from splinter heads, which was a rough experience for you creatively. And then you go to you go back to your micro budget roots with sanctorum and I remember when you called me about saying to me like yeah, I'm just gonna go off and do this horror movie and I'm like, you know, okay, I'm interested to see how it goes. So tell me a little bit about how that guy did you go back to the whole model of blackballed in the sense but just did with the horror movies.

Brant Sersen 44:39
Sorta. So yeah, so the sanatorium was kind of like a reaction to splinter heads. I was really I guess, in the dumps after splinter heads. Like I worked so hard in that movie, and I, you know, like what's up on the screen was not like my vision and was like, really depressing. And I was just thinking, if this is The way it's gonna be like, I don't want to do this, I don't want to do this anymore. And so like I went through like, there was like a little moment there where I remember I I just didn't know what I was gonna do like, what am I gonna do with my life right now because I don't like this and my director of photography on splinter heads was this guy named Michael Simmons, and Michael Simmons after splinter heads, I think basically went on and shot Paranormal Activity too. And it was after coming off a paranormal to, you know, we became good friends. He said, Brent, we should do a horror movie. And I was working with Chris Chris Gethard on the site comedy horror thing. We were like, kind of writing something. And, and, you know, I was I was thinking about it. And I'm like, you know, that would be fun. You know, I think I've never really played in that genre before. But, you know, my comedy stems from, like, practical jokes, like, practical jokes are what make me laugh the most. And, you know, I don't know, I just saw some sort of parallel with like horror and practical jokes. And like, Can I trick the audience? Can I scare them? Because I love scaring people like, and I have stupid videos of me scaring people. I have, like a whole, like, you know, right, next mixtape of that stuff, but um, I just thought, you know, yeah, I want to try this. So you know, Chris Gethard got some other gig. And I took this idea that I that we were working on, which was I took my part of it back, basically. And I teamed up with Simmons, Mike Simmons, and he said, Okay, if we're gonna do this, though, we have to do it for like, $5,000 and I'm like, You're crazy. And he's like, No, no, we got to do something as cheap as possible. So I said, perfect. You know, that's, I'm comfortable doing that. Let's do this. So, you know, I had the story all together, already put together and I went out I basically follow the blueprint of how I put together blackballed. I, I visited the same UCB theatre that you know, I spent a lot of time at I, I, I wanted to cast people that knew each other outside of comedy, you know, just they were friends I wanted you know, I wanted to get that chemistry right. So I put that movie together. We shot it for a little more than $5,000 but not much more. And we just went to one location and we shot this movie in the dead of winter.

Yeah, I saw that I saw that I saw that I saw the trailer. But wait. So how did you get that locations? Awesome. How did you get that location because that's basically your money.

Well, the one thing that everyone really needs to do in this business is relationships and keep relationships and the good thing is I I guess I'm good at that like I become friends with most people that I work with from if they were pa to location scout to a casting person, I always treat everyone with the most respect I admire what every position on every set does. And you know, I you know, because I when I was I piayed for a very short time and I was treated like like I hated the way I felt being a PA how some of these production managers were treating me and I said from that I would never treat anyone like that I would never let anyone treat anyone like that on my sets if I could control that. So you know, I think because of because of that, like you know, I've just fostered these relationships over the years with key people in different departments. So you know, when we needed a abandoned hospital I called the location scout that I knew from splitter heads and I was like Hey Tom, you know this is I'm doing this little tiny movie you know, I'm looking at this thing and he's like, and he was like Yeah, man, let me let me do this with you I'm down let's do it. You know, and it was easy as that and you know, we drove around all around all the different boroughs in New York City and outside of the city until we found this one place just just about 45 minutes north of New York City. And yeah, that's that was our location

Alex Ferrari 49:01
and I have to ask like, did they charge you because I know when I did broken that you know and I did broken that whole my whole movie was based around this one hospital which was not an abandoned hospital was an actually functioning tuberculosis hospital on the floors three four and five but floors to one and the basement were abandoned and that's why I got that cool look and and they originally were going to charge me like 500 bucks, but at the end of the whole week and a half that I was there, they were just like No, just don't pay us it's fine. So I added that $5,000 budget I'm just trying to break it down like what was the cost anything? A little bit You don't have to say numbers, but just the the cost?

Brant Sersen 49:41
Yeah, no, no, no, that that it costs Yeah, it costs something. It costs. I think same thing. 500 bucks. I think it was like, I mean, it's always great when you go you go to a place where films are not shot. You know, people like they love it. They love the excitement. So there were these There are all these abandoned buildings there, there are over 50 abandoned buildings on this property. And three of them were like in use for different reasons. And there was like, you know, someone from the town had their offices there and, and this woman's like, yeah, you can do it. This will be fun. Oh, give me something to do. You know if you guys are here, right? Oh, you know, she's like, I don't know, how long are you going to be here? We're like, three weeks. She's like, okay, 500 bucks sound good. We're like, deal, you know, because we were looking at places that wanted to charge us $10,000 a day of course, which was you know, closer to the city. So we had full rein of they gave us well, there were three safe buildings that didn't have a specialist in them that were going but we had full rein. Yeah, and you know, yeah, that's how that happened.

That's a pretty creepy movie. I mean, did you guys get creeped out in that movie in that and that's it?

Yeah, you know look, we were there. We were three weeks we were we spent most nights in there you know, Ghost Adventures. The ghost hunting show actually did an episode in one of the buildings that we used like you know, six months after we shot and they picked up some pretty crazy stuff during that show. Like Yeah, lots of a lot of craziness. A lot of crazy stuff. So yeah, who knows? You know, we definitely heard some things but like, I think you know, I don't know.

Alex Ferrari 51:21
Did you crazy? Did you jump but yeah, did you jump genres? Because from comedy to horror to kind of prove that you can kind of do that and not pigeonhole yourself into comedy?

Brant Sersen 51:34
No, you know, like there's only so much you could do with the camera with comedy. Yeah, because I did some commercials and stuff to sorry like in between films and stuff. Other comedy stuff you know, I just found like I was just you put a cat you set up your your wide or medium your close and you're kind of just providing a stage you know, for your comedians to perform on and I want to explore with something more visual because when I first got into the business I wanted to do music videos and commercials like I wanted to follow in the footsteps of Fincher and spike Jones and I felt like the stuff that I was doing I wasn't allowed to do that stuff like you don't really see any you don't see me stylized comedies you know rarely see many of them you know you rarely do and i don't know i you know i i never want to just be the comedy guy I don't know how I fell into comedy honestly. But um but I want to explore other genres and you know, and I'm not the biggest like I don't like blood and guts you know, I'll pass out with that stuff you know, but like I love scaring people and I felt like I don't know I just saw a parallel between you know, when you're doing you're setting up a scene to do a scare it was very similar to how you were setting up a joke. I don't know I just found something that was that felt familiar, but felt very different. And shooting Santorum, you know, it was found footage, you know, we you know, we shot this thing. You know, honestly, before the wave of found footage, movies, like, filled, you know, your Netflix queue, we it just took us a while to finish the movie, because everyone was working for free. So my editor was working for free. Everyone had points and that's how we did it. But his schedule was nuts. So it took us almost two years to finish that movie. And in that within that two years, like a billion found footage movies came out. And you know, and you'll see some criticism of my movie like, Oh, this is grave encounters, you know, like, oh, they're copying grave encounters. And I want to just be like, yeah, buddy, we shot this way before grave encounters. We just couldn't get it out, and, and also Lionsgate and ultimately bought the film we had, for whatever reason, we had a little bidding war, between Lionsgate and this other company, and Lionsgate got it and but then they they held on to it for like a year or so. And then we watched more of the same site type of movie come out and it's like, oh my god released the frickin movie already. You know? And then they finally did. And you know, it seems to get positive reviews. But I'll tell you what, Alex, that was like the best thing that ever happened to me because like it like I'm back now. You know, like that movie brought me back.

Alex Ferrari 54:07
No, I did. I actually just saw an interview the other day with the Guillermo del Toro. And he was talking about, it's funny that I've seen, I see a kind of a pattern with filmmakers, that they'll have their first movie that they do, which they have complete control of. It's awesome that people go crazy for it and they'd love it. And then they get offered a bigger movie, which they have a horrible time on because they have no control of and with Guillermo del Toro, it was mimic. mimic was the first studio movie he did after Kronos and Harvey Weinstein just beat the hell out of them. To the point where he almost like after after mimic, he was like you, he's like, I don't want to know how am I going to do that he was completely destroyed. And he realized that he needed to go back to what he knew. So he did Devil's backbone. But the funny thing is he was offered blade to before devils black bone. And he literally said no to new line. He said, Look, if you want me, you'll wait for me because he said that he had to get his creative juices back. Like to get as an artist as a human being he was destroyed his soul. He said, his artistic soul had been destroyed through the process of mimic. And I know a lot of that was happening happened to you now with splinter head. So yeah, sanctorum was kind of like the that kind of response to that. And then his was devil, but Devil's backbone. And then after Devil's backbone, he went right into blade two, but that at that point he got He's like, I would have never been able to make blade to like without that. So which brings us into your next project. Can you tell us a little bit about your latest project you're working on?

Brant Sersen 55:49
Yeah, I could tell you a little bit. Yes. So it only took 20 years. But I got my first I guess they call it open directing assignment. I was a, I know, after doing Santorum, I got new agents and a new manager. And there's been like a little shift in focus for what I like what I want to do and what they want to see me do. I was presented this one project who was looking for they were looking for a writer slash director. And, you know, I went up against a bunch of dudes, a bunch of other directors, and I guess I, you know, they liked my ideas. And I went through, you know, three rounds of basically pitching, interviewing, wooing, trying to convince them that my ideas are great. I got the phone call, you know, it was like, it was kind of like an amazing moment. Actually, I was like, just got home and I walked in the door, I see this Beverly Hills phone number, and I pick it up, and that's the producers. And they're like, hey, Brent, we we'd love for you to come aboard and direct this movie. And it was like, Oh, my God, like, you know, because I really liked the project. The people involved are incredible. And but yeah, an amazing moment. So yeah, it's a it's a it's a, it's a horror film. It's sort of in the vein of I guess you could call it a project x meets paranormal activity. And, you know, we're actually we're casting now, and we're gonna probably go into pre production, and then a few weeks and

then this is us. This is kind of it's a it's not a studio film, but it's a fairly large budget film.

It's a fair Yeah, this will be my biggest budget film ever. And I have some pretty big players. I could just tell you two of my executive producers are Michael Lin and Bob Shea. And the bob Shea, the bob Shea so yeah, they're they they did this little franchise called Lord of the Rings. I don't know if you're but yeah,

for everybody who doesn't know who Bob Shea is Google him. But he basically used to run New Line Cinema,

Bob's and they both did and but those guys they've produced 500 something movies together. And yeah, I think right before they sold new line, Lord of the Rings was their last film. So the way to go out a nice way to go out so now they've started this new company called unique pictures, and they're in the old new line offices. And this will be one of their first movies that they make under this banner. So yeah, pretty amazing.

That's what these guys so your it took you 20 years to be an overnight success is what you're telling me?

Oh, total overnight success. lesson is don't ever, ever give up. Don't ever give up. If you're passionate about filmmaking, just keep doing it. Don't ever ever stop. You're gonna, like, be depressed, you're gonna go through so many emotional stages, but you just got to keep pushing forward. And you know, and know that no one is ever going to help you, the only person that will help you is yourself. And you know, really like stick to your gut and like, Listen to your gut. And, you know, if you don't like an actor for a role, just say no. I wish I said no, you know, but I had to say yes, but I wish I said no, you know,

Alex Ferrari 58:58
And don't be afraid to say no, it's a lot of a lot of filmmakers who when they are giving an opportunity, they they just kind of become Yes Men, because they don't want to lose their opportunity to be in a movie set or to direct, you know, to direct the feature or anything like that. And a lot of times, they just will keep saying yes, because that's it. But the thing is that the directors who make it are the ones who have a vision, who are the ones who do have a strong personality. Like the Guillermo del Toro's of the world and the David Fincher of the world and those guys that just say, no, this is not the way it's supposed to be. And I think you learned that the hard way.

Brant Sersen 59:32
I learned the hard way. I wish I said no. A lot more times during spinnerets it probably wouldn't I would have been more satisfied with the filming. But yeah,

Alex Ferrari 59:44
So last question. This is a very difficult question I asked all of my my guests. What is your top three films of all time?

Brant Sersen 59:54
Oh, God.

Alex Ferrari 59:57
Choose no no specific order. Just go ahead.

Brant Sersen 1:00:00
too I could tell you two off the bat there's a movie Lehane there's a movie once were warriors

Alex Ferrari 1:00:07
Oh yeah once warriors it's good

Brant Sersen 1:00:11
And man the third one it's a tough one man I know it's like do you say like I don't know Ummm..

Alex Ferrari 1:00:17
Just pick one that tickles your fancy man that's it's not about you know you're not getting an award after this dont worry

Brant Sersen 1:00:25
Not like sound film snobby or anything there's just one documentary that really like influenced me a lot It was American movie.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:32
Oh, I remember American movie Yeah, that makes a lot of sense after seeing a black wall than an American movie

Brant Sersen 1:00:38
Yeah that was that was yeah that was that was like a though I you know it's kind of funny now after saying those those three movies were like big game changers for me they really changed the way that I looked at cinema. And you know, I Pulp Fiction sort of took over the spotlight of once were warriors when it came out but when I was down in Miami we got a free pass to see this movie and I went to see it and I sat there with my mouth open the whole time like yeah, New Zealand it's

Alex Ferrari 1:01:04
A New Zealand film

Brant Sersen 1:01:05
Yeah incredible you know the hain was another one that was just incredible and American movie was Yeah, that those three movies sort of like shaped me That's weird. Yeah, just Thanks Alex. This is a therapy just like yeah, just figure some stuff.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:20
So any other final words of advice to tell young or just a new independent filmmakers trying to get get their stuff off the ground?

Brant Sersen 1:01:29
Yeah, you know don't like like I said don't give up but like you got to you. Relationships are key in this business and if you don't have the relationships it's gonna be hard to do to get far because he can't do it all by herself. Now it's such a collaborative art you know, field that you know just foster those relationships keep them and and just don't ever you know, give up on you know, your dream or your idea and, and say no, every once in a while.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:00
Brant man, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to the indie film tribe by indie film hustle tribe. I really appreciate it was great catching up with you, man.

Brant Sersen 1:02:09
Thanks, Alex.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:10
It's always nice to hear other filmmakers journeys to kind of see what other people are going through so you don't feel so alone. In this crazy journey of being an artist and a filmmaker and especially when you're hearing it from an old friend. It was wonderful talking to Brent and I wish him nothing but the best and if you can definitely check out in the show notes. The trailer for Bobby Dukes are about blackballed the bobby Duke story as well as splinter heads and Centurion and you could check out the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com/035. And don't forget to head over to filmmakingpodcast.com to leave us an honest review. It really helps to show out a lot. Thank you guys so much for listening. I hope you guys got a bunch of information out of that at least got inspired to go off and tell your own story. So keep that also going keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 024: How I Made Over $90,000 Selling my Short Film + Video Tutorials

Making a Short film can be tough but selling a short film can be impossible. Here’s my story on how I did both.

I directed a small action short film a few years back called BROKEN (Watch it on Indie Film Hustle TV) I shot the short film on MiniDV Tape (yes I’m old) on the Panasonic DVX 100a, the indie film workhorse of its day.

My team and I filmed it in West Palm Beach Florida (not exactly the Mecca of the film industry) and it starred only local, no named actors.

Now once the filming was over I marketed the living hell out of that short film. It went on to screen at over 250 international film festivals, won countless awards and was covered by over 300 news outlets.

That little short film had a life of its own. I even got a review from legendary film critic Roger Ebert (to hear the full story on how that happen to take a listen to this podcast: Getting Attention from Influencers & Gatekeepers)


BROKEN is essentially a demonstration of the mastery of horror imagery and techniques. Effective and professional.” – Roger Ebert

Roger Ebert, short film, short films, indie film hustle, film school, independent film, robert rodriguez, indie film, moviemaker, red camera, arri alexa, cinematography, digital filmmaking, filmmaking, alex ferrari, guerrilla filmmaking, NYU, USC, Full Sail University, Sundance Film Festival, film festival, tarantino, kurosawa, cinematography, short films, short film, indie films, filmmaker, how to make a movie, short film ideas, filmmakers, filmmaking, film festivals, film production, guerrilla film, film distribution, indie movie, screenwriter, screenwriting, short film competition, film producers, short films online, how to make short films, film distribution process, great short films, good independent films, digital video production, list of film festivals, watch short films, marketing video production, indie filmmaking, filmmaking software, short film contests, short film festivals, how to make an independent film

Roger Ebert at the Toronto International Film Festival.

Now you must be asking,

But Alex how the hell did you make money with it?

Well, I knew that no one would pay “real money” for a 20-minute short film, shot on MiniDV, with no-name actors, and from a first time director to boot. So I thought like a Filmtrepreneur and planned to create a guerilla indie film school with over 3 hours of footage, tutorials, commentaries and more. 

By creating all the supplemental material and packaging with the short film on DVD I created a viable product for the marketplace.

VOD (Video on Demand) and digital download technology were just getting off the ground and still very expensive if it worked at all. Youtube was not “Youtube” yet, it had just launched. So DVD was the only way to go.


I went after every message board and film news outlet I could get my hands on. I’d had created so much hype around the release that on day one I sold over 250 DVDs for $20.00 a pop. That’s $5000! 

The orders kept coming and I went on to sell over 5000 copies worldwide (and counting), shipping them out of my bedroom in Fort Lauderdale, FL. 

short film, short films, indie film hustle, film school, independent film, robert rodriguez, indie film, moviemaker, red camera, arri alexa, cinematography, digital filmmaking, filmmaking, alex ferrari, guerrilla filmmaking, NYU, USC, Full Sail University, Sundance Film Festival, film festival, tarantino, kurosawa, cinematography, short films, short film, indie films, filmmaker, how to make a movie, short film ideas, filmmakers, filmmaking, film festivals, film production, guerrilla film, film distribution, indie movie, screenwriter, screenwriting, short film competition, film producers, short films online, how to make short films, film distribution process, great short films, good independent films, digital video production, list of film festivals, watch short films, marketing video production, indie filmmaking, filmmaking software, short film contests, short film festivals, how to make an independent film

Speaking on a panel at the Director’s Guild of America opening night at Hollyshorts! Film Festival

10 years later I’m still selling copies today, as crazy as might sound. I’ve probably have generated well over $90,000 selling that little short film over the years. All because I understood my marketplace and what it needed. 

At the time there was nothing on the market like the BROKEN DVD; no courses on how to make a low budget indie feature or short film with low budget technology. BROKEN has found a new life in Indie Film Hustle’s first online educational course “BROKEN (Watch it on Indie Film Hustle TV)” More on that later.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:00
So this episode today, I wanted to talk about a question that I get asked a ton. It's something that I did almost 10 years ago now was 11, over a little was 11 years ago at this point. And I talk a lot about this little short film, I think in the most, it's the most talked about short film in history. But my film that I did 10 years ago called Broken, I was able to do something very special with that film back then, and continue to do stuff with that film. And my other works today. And I wanted to share with you guys a little bit of how I was able to generate a substantial amount of money selling and self distributing, broken and now my other works as well. So when I created broken, it was a short, I'll give you a quick, quick story about it if I haven't mentioned that already on the show. But the quick story of broke it is that it was a shot as a small short film, shot for about $1,000 shot on mini DV back in 2004. There was no high end technology back then. So I was editing it on Final Cut shot on a mini DV. But what I did do was create a look for the film because of my post production experience. And I took the format of mini DV and did something really cool with it that a lot of people hadn't seen before. So what I did was did a lot of color grading and made it look in a very filmic. And the way it was and a lot of filmmakers started asking me how I was doing it and how I did it. So when when I released the trailer, like when I first started the movie, I had no plans on selling it. I don't think I didn't even understand what I was going to do with it. I just wanted to try to get it out there and see what would happen with it. But as I started posting in places and posting the trailer, in places people kept asking me how did you do those visual effects, which by the way, we did over 100 visual effects in this little short film. So people were asking me how did you do the visual effects? How did you do the had the magic, that camera looked like that I have that camera, which was the dv x 100 A the workhorse of its day. I still love that little camera, they were asking me how I'm able to do it, I can't do it. I have that camera, well, your techniques. So that started giving me the idea. When I first was about to start doing broken, I looked everywhere for some sort of resources to be able to make broken as far as like DVD tutorial something to show me how to make a mini DVD movie editing on Final Cut just something to teach you how to make independent film and believe it or not back in 2004. There wasn't a whole lot. There was actually nothing, I couldn't find a thing about how to make movies for that kind of budget with that kind of technology. YouTube was just it's an infancy was just getting started. And it definitely wasn't owned by Google at the time. So the quality was really horrible as well. It just there was nothing there. So I saw that there was a a hole in the marketplace. So I was like, Well, you know what I'm going to do this. I'm going to learn a whole bunch of stuff on how I did it along the way. And I documented everything I had to documentary crews following us through the entire five days shoot documentary crews being my friends.

And we shot just hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of behind the scenes footage of how we made this movie. So then I went on and spent about six weeks I would imagine to create over three hours or so of behind the scenes tutorials, kind of like a gorilla film school and put it on DVD. Now while this was going on, I was creating a buzz about the movie. For about six months, I was creating a lot of buzz about the movie. I was getting into film festivals. We were winning awards. We were getting written up. We went to Sundance, we've just done a whole bunch of different things with the film. And I was on spin offs to me now I know this now is like you I was doing a product launch. A lot of people talk about doing a product launch online. There's a sequence that you go by and I was doing it and I didn't even know what I was doing at the time. But I was actually Creating a product launch sequence, creating anticipation for the product. So when I started released it, it was very excited about the movie then, when I announced that I was creating this DVD, about how to make the movie, and how I made it, and all the tricks and tips of how I did it, and it was so full of information so full of rich content, the indie film community at the time, really, really just embraced it and went crazy for it and started sharing it and started talking about it. People were already getting excited for I didn't even do any pre orders, I should have done pre orders, I didn't do any pre orders. All I did was like, Hey, if you want to know when it comes out, just sign up for my email list. And I was even getting email lists at the time. And that wasn't something in vogue back in 2004. So I was doing all this kind of instinctually I can't say there was a master plan that I was doing this back then. But so anyway, the day opens that I launch it, all of a sudden, I just hear Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, all my emails keep coming in from PayPal. And we sold over 250 DVDs in the first day, which was about five grand, because we were selling the DVD at 20 bucks a pop, my partner and I had to run to the post office handwrite all all of the addresses hand stamp all the addresses, we didn't have any infrastructure laid out and the printing of postage, nothing. So it was it was pretty crazy. And then it just kept building and kept selling and kept selling. Okay, building a building. But I was able to create a tremendous amount of press and a tremendous amount of energy around the product. But it was all about creating a piece of a product, if you will, that had content for people like I know, I wouldn't have been able to sell the short film by itself. It just didn't make any sense. It has no stars in it. Yeah, it's an action genre. And, you know, there's a lot of visual effects and things like that in it. But there was just no way someone was going to pay 510 20 bucks to buy this on a DVD, there was no digital downloads, no VOD at the time, that was at least accessible to indie filmmakers like myself. So when I was able to do this, I, I was able to create this, this product that had a tremendous amount of content, and people just went crazy for it, and then start talking about it and start sharing it. And what I was able to do is generate a sold, we've ended up selling over 5000 DVDs, over the course of the years have gone by. And it was all because I was able to identify a hole in the marketplace and understand what they wanted and fed my marketplace fed my audience what they wanted. And what they were asking for. It was pretty humbling, honestly, the whole process of what happened with broken so I tried to do something similar later on with our next film sin, where I was able to do some stuff on with some digital downloads through iTunes. But that was a kind of wonky way of doing it didn't create a bunch of content, like I did with broken was just wasn't as big of a movie. And then years later, I created my movie Red Princess Genesis, which is the animated prequel to references blues, which is the live action short for my feature film that I hope to make one day. And I created a whole bunch of content around that. So what I decided to do recently is to create a new brand new guerrilla indie film school encompassing all of my movies, and giving you almost seven hours of how to stuff like how to everything from pre production production post production, how to market your film, I do brand new content on how I marketed the film's how I went through it, how I how I built the websites, what techniques I used as far as theories and the concepts that I used, why I was doing certain things still hold very true today. So I put this all together under the name lipstick and bullets, lipstick and bullets was a Blu ray compilation of all of the stuff I did, and released that in England. I got all the rights back. And now I'm going to distribute them as an experiment through indie film hustle. So indie film hustle will present the guerrilla indie film school lipstick and bullets edition. So it's gonna have a ton of stuff. It's available. Now, if you head over to indie film hacks, calm, that's indie film hacks, calm. And since you're listening to this podcast, you're going to get a coupon for 20% off. Right now I'm selling it for $47 that will go up in the future. Right now. It's an introductory offer, I think it's a super deal for that much content, or you can rent it for 15 bucks. We're doing it all through VH x.tv going to have the the some representative from VH X on the show in the coming weeks as well. So look out for that explaining to you how how to do video on demand or self distribute through their platform, which is amazing. So far, I love it. The coupon code is I FH tribe. That's I F h tribe and you get 20% off the sale price of $47. So it ends up being like $37 and change. So you get almost 10 bucks off. So to wrap it up guys create how I was able to create this kind of amount of money with a short film is these key elements you have to remember. Now write these down, understand your audience, understand where your audience is, go to that area, where they are, where they're hanging out, whether that be on Facebook groups, whether that be in on forums, at film festivals, wherever they might be hanging out, depending on what that group is, if it's about, I always use the vegan chef example. But if they're vegan chefs don't go to the foodie blogs go to, there's so many different places you can go just find out who your audience is, okay? Once you find out who do you audiences, then start crowdsourcing them starting interacting with them start, you know, asking them what they want, when you find that information out, then build a product that you can sell to them through your movie. So whatever that movie is, and I'm using the word product, but it's really your movie. So write the movie around it around what they want, build a product base about what they want, whether that be hats, T shirts, extra extra materials, film, schools, whatever, whatever they want. If it's you're doing a movie about vegan chefs rom com about vegan chefs, my God, you'd be a fool not to create a whole series of videos on how to make vegan like, you know, a vegan chef of vegan recipes, and show them how to do it, because that's what they want. You know, that's something that they would want to do. If you're making a horror movie, it would be awesome to do tutorials about how you're making, you know, the heads explode, how are you doing it, you know, how you making the fake blood recipes, stuff like that, believe it or not, people really, really love, especially if you're focusing on other filmmakers or other people who are trying to do what you're doing. Once you do that, then you sell the product to them. And now how you how you sell that product to them in 2004 2005 DVDs with the answer, there were no other options. Today, I would not suggest you do a DVD, it's not a great place to it's a lot of upfront costs, and time. And all that stuff, I wouldn't do blu ray either. What I would do is strictly video on demand through through companies like VH X through Gumroad, through Vimeo Pro, any of those guys just do it directly to your consumer and cut out the middleman as much as you can with your project. And again, this is a case by case basis. Some projects have budgets that, you know, this is a much longer conversation about which project makes sense to do VOD and do this for short film and what I was doing to make perfect sense I spent $8,000, you know, I was able to recoup my money and then some with with what I was able to do. If you were doing $100,000 movie, you better have a heck of a marketing plan, and a heck of a business plan on how are you going to be able to recoup your money. And that goes into crowdsourcing crowd, crowd building crowdfunding, all those kinds of different topics. But that's how I was able to do you know, generate a tremendous amount of money, close over $90,000 Over the years selling broken as a broken on DVD. And now I'm continuing to sell not only some of the hand picked stuff from broken, that is still very relevant, I'm not going to give you a tutorial on mini DV. But a lot of the a lot of this cool stuff that was still very, very relevant today. I have picked that by creating and also created a bunch of stuff for red Princess references Genesis sin, and then marketing materials on how to market all of A plus tons of commentary tracks on composing and visual effects and all that kind of stuff for indie film. So I also include in this guerrilla indie film school, my book, The Art of broken, I've always been a big fan of all the art of books like The Art of matrix art, Sin City, and so on. And Ken Robinson and Dan create, and I put together this book with all of the artwork from not only broken, but for the defunct feature film version of broken, but there was so much artwork, and you can kind of see as an example of what can be done with some with a short film for God's sakes. But it's another product line. And we did sell it a hardcover hardcover copies of it. During the days of broken when it came out. We sold a handful of them. But I wanted to give this to you guys not only as an example of what can be done with a project, but also just for fun for people who just want to see all this cool, amazing artwork they all the artists did. I also include all the marketing materials of all the four movies that I did. So all the poster work all the kind of extras I did on the websites and things like that. So you can kind of see the progression of how I was able to market all of our films, and how we were able to get into over 500 film festivals and so on. And how about that you also get my ebook on how to get into film festivals for cheaper free. And that gives you a complete detail explanation of how I was able to get into over the into over 500 film festivals after the first 30 or so film festivals. I spent I spent over $1,000 in submission fees were broken, it was ridiculous. But after a certain time, I was like, You know what, I don't know, if I'm going to be able to like, at this point in the game, any film festivals I get into after this, how much more they're gonna like boost my career boost the film. So I was like, You know what, at this point in the game, I'll be more than willing to pay a submission fee if I'm able to play in the movie, but just to pay to submit and just maybe I'll get into it wasn't playing that anymore. So I decided to create these techniques that worked very, very well.

So you also get that in this package as well. It's a hell of a package, it really, really is a hell of a package, I would have killed to have it. And for the price, honestly, it's awesome. And you get to watch it as much as you want, whenever you want to watch it. Again, head over to indie film, hacks.com indie film hacks, calm and use that coupon code ifH tribe. So on a side note, guys, I wanted to thank you again for making this podcast the number one filmmaking podcast on iTunes. I am humbled beyond, by beyond all recognition. It's amazing that within a three month period, this little show has been able to rank all the way as to the number one spot or filmmaking in iTunes. So I humbly humbly thank all my listeners, all my all the all the tribe, all the indie film hustle tribe, for doing that. Thank you again, so so much for helping us get to that point. And please, if you love the show, or if you just want to give us an honest review, head over to iTunes, give us a review, give us a give us a good rating. And that will help us even get more and more people to listen to the show and help more and more filmmakers. So thanks again guys for listening. I really hope this helped you guys out a lot inspired you a little bit that it can be done. So keep that dream alive. Keep that hustle going. I'll talk to you guys soon.

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