Alex Ferrari 2:26
Now today on the show. We have Writer Director podcaster blogger Noam Kroll, and I wanted to get Noam on because his new movie shadows on the road is hitting iTunes. And the movie cost about $12,000 to make. And he did it in a very unorthodox way. He has some amazing tactics that he used, as well as marketing ideas and marketing strategies to get it on iTunes, how he launches it, how he went out and shot it with pretty much a skeleton crew. And it looks stunning. He shot it with Blackmagic cameras. And I just wanted to kind of dig into his head on how he did it, what he's doing with it, how he's getting it out there. And his entire process because you know, $12,000 feature is much more accessible than trying to raise $50,000 or $100,000 for a feature film. And if you can, hopefully learn something from them today on the show that can help you get your 510 15 $20,000 feature film off the ground and get it out there. All the better. So that's one of the main reasons I want to know more. The other one is he's just a cool dude, man. He's a really, really cool guy. And he does really good work on his podcast, and his blog, which we'll get links all that stuff after the show. But without any further ado, let's get into it. Please enjoy my conversation with Noam Kroll. I'd like to welcome the show Noam Kroll man! Thank you so much for being on the show brother!

Noam Kroll 3:54
Thank you, Alex. I'm excited to be here in video as well. So this great!

Alex Ferrari 3:59
Yes, right video and audio. So for all of you listening, you can also watch the video on ifH TV through the new ifH TV video podcast. But enough about that. So I've always had the pleasure of being on gnomes amazing podcast a few months, what, six months ago? Something like that something

Noam Kroll 4:18
Something like that. Yeah, five, six months ago.

Alex Ferrari 4:20
Right! And it was a great experience. And he's an LA guy like me, so it's always nice to connect with other guys in town. And and I wanted to have him on the show because he has a new movie. And how he made that movie is a very interesting story. So I wanted to talk about that. But first and foremost know how did you get into this ridiculous business we call the film industry?

Noam Kroll 4:41
Well, I think I always try to go back as many people do to like when you got in psychologically, and I actually get in so psychologically, it's probably like you and like a lot of people. It was just always something that I did like as a kid. I was shooting movies and taking like all my school projects. Were taking My camcorder and making, you know, ridiculously offensive videos for my school projects and all of that. And that was, you know, I think just getting a bit of a rush from like, Oh, this is something I like doing, it's fun, it's creative and entertains people that kind of was the bug, but I really didn't realize it just never, you know, I grew up in Toronto, and yes, there's a film industry there. But it's not like la where like, every, you know, you throw a stone and you hit like a producer and actor or whatever it's, it's, it still seems like this very, like foreign thing. So I didn't really, it never really crossed my mind that I could actually make a living doing it. And I was also, you know, I always knew I was going to make films, I thought it'd be more of a passion thing on the side. And, and I went to school, like I studied psychology, while I was in university, a friend of mine started a little production company just doing like local commercials. And he brought me into it. And I was like, essentially freelancing, doing commercials and all of that, while I was doing short films, and all this other stuff, and like studying something totally unrelated in school, and once I graduated, I just said, you know, what, I'm gonna just, I, this is really what I want to do, I'm going to take a risk, I'm going to rent an apartment that I literally don't know how I'm going to pay for it. At the end of this month, I'm going to go on Craigslist and find whatever freelance job will pay me, you know, 200 bucks to go and shoot some crappy commercial for something that nobody's ever gonna see. And I'm not above anything, I'm just starting. And I just want to see if this is possible. And essentially, I just put one foot in front of the other and scaled that up and turned it into more of a professional system where I'm you know, I'm also still to this day balancing making my own films and making commercial content, but not scouring the internet for work and having proper marketing systems in place and working with, you know, clients I really want to work with and projects I want to work with and making the films I want to make. So it's it's still a learning process. But that was kind of the, you know, the inciting incident to use a screenwriting screenwriting lingo. If,if that answered your question he'll see.

Alex Ferrari 7:15
And then so well, you just finished doing a new movie, which is amazing, called shadows on the road. How did that come to be? And tell us a little bit about how you made that, you know, movies, a unique story?

Noam Kroll 7:28
Yeah, so it was, um, you know, I made another feature, I call it a feature length film, and not a feature film, because I never released it. But when I was like, 25-26, I made it, I wanted to make a feature. And I did this micro budget film, which in many ways I'm very proud of, but it wasn't it. I didn't really know what I was doing yet. And I, you know, every every movie, you probably say that after you're done with it. But in this case, like I really hadn't gone to film school hadn't, I learned everything on that movie. And I at the same time, I was sort of soured from the experience in the sense that like, it wasn't exactly what I wanted it to be. I didn't know how to market I didn't understand film festivals, I didn't even submit to most film festivals, like it was just so daunting. And I took like, at the same time, I was moving to LA. And I had to make money because I you know, I didn't know a single person here. And so like five years, four or five years of my life, were basically dedicated to like, I got to move to a new country and from Toronto, how do I do that? How do I keep making a living doing that? And I knew at some point, I get back to making a feature. But it wasn't until like two years ago, that I finally said, You know what, I've been thinking about this for a while. I've been writing stuff that needs bigger budgets that I'm excited about, but like, I just can't get it done. Like, what can I do right now. And this was a total experiment where I literally, I went with my wife, she co wrote it with me. And we were having lunch and I were just saying, you know, what can we do literally in like, two weeks, what can we shoot a month from now that we can write right now not put pressure on it to be this like perfect thing. We're going to spend two years developing, like, just let it be imperfect, and let it be an experience and like, let some magic happen within that. And that's what we did wrote a concept literally like over lunch based on a theme. You know, the film centers around a girl who is a victim, essentially a victim of abuse. And they're that those details of that are revealed throughout the course of the film. So I don't want to get too much into that for anyone that might watch it. But it essentially deals with that theme. And it's, you know, something that is very obviously right now very relevant. And when we wrote and all this stuff happening with like, v2 or whatever wasn't happening, but it was still clearly like in the air that like there was a lot of these stories floating around. And we were trying to figure out, like, how do we package that theme into a format that we can shoot for? What ended up being like $12,000, and I thought it was gonna be even less But that was like us going over budget was like $12,000. So how do we do that in, you know, like a week and a half with no money and like a two, three person crew, and we backed our creative idea into those parameters. So we came up with a structure for the story, the movie, the logistics, everything that would be feasible within our own means, which is, you know, what everybody preaches. And it for the most part, it worked. There were some rules I broke, that definitely got us into trouble and caused me a ton of stress and pain throughout the process. But it got done in the end, and we released it. And you know, I'm sure over the course of that conversation, and, you know, ask me if there's any specifics you want me to get into, but, but there were, yeah, there's a lot of crazy stories in both production and post that I'm happy to dive into. If that's absolutely you want to go?

Alex Ferrari 10:55
Oh, no, no, absolutely. Sorry. So first of all, was this a SAG project?

Noam Kroll 10:59
It was sad. Yeah, it was ultra low budget as so I'm sure you know. But for listeners, that's like the now they also have new media, which, which you can sometimes people prefer that. But yeah, ultra low budget. So you're paying your actors like 125 a day, if they have an agent. It's like 135 137.

Alex Ferrari 11:16
So you pay you're paying the agent, the $10 because God knows they need it. It's just like, it's so ridiculous. Go ahead.

Noam Kroll 11:24
No, so it was sag. And you know, it was only sag because I'm part of the way that we can do it so quickly was it had to be written around people we knew. So there's two different actresses I've worked with before. Both really good one was full sag. She's been in movies that have gone to like South by Southwest. And she's also a singer. So she anyway, she's kind of in the, you know, she has she has a lot of stuff going on. And she's a full member. And it was easier to just deal with sag and hire her than it would have been to try to recast the whole or like cast the whole thing from scratch and find someone as good as her. It was. Yeah, I mean, I don't. Honestly, I don't love working with sag. I'm doing it right now. It's not not the most fun thing to do. But it's a necessary evil, I guess at the end of the day.

Alex Ferrari 12:12
Really? Yes. Yes. Unfortunately, sometimes. It is no question about it.

Noam Kroll 12:17
If your film I know. I'll let you get back to the follow up. But what did you do begun with sag as well?

Alex Ferrari 12:23
Yeah, it was it was the same thing. So Low, low. Okay. ultra low budget low yakko. Anything. So yeah, cuz we had a great cast. We were very blessed to have a really great, amazing cast. We were all very seasoned actors. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Without question. So all right. So you, you gather this, you gathered this thing together. And you get the actors. You're like, Okay, I'm gonna go shoot this thing. I'm assuming the money came out of your own pocket? Yes. Okay. So you guys put your money where your mouth is? Which is? Yeah, which is good. And then how did you gather the crew? What made you decide what crew members were absolutely necessary for the process?

Noam Kroll 13:04
Well, that's a great question. And that kind of led to like, the very first issue that I had on set was, I'm so used to doing so much myself I've shot short films where I've been a one man crew, and I quickly realized on the feature just because I can do that doesn't mean I should or that I'm going to be able to sustain that over feature, even if it's a seven day 10 day 12 day feature. It's a lot more than one day when you're doing it yourself and you can relax or two days or whatever, on a short film. So Originally, it was supposed to be myself. Um, my wife who wrote it and was producing she was gonna be on set with us our sound recordist Scott who was there every day, and, and on some days, it only some days when we need like special effects makeup and makeup artist. And more or less I was it like that was it was literally like three of us. And I got to day one. And I started shooting. And just by the end of the day, I realized it I needed to bring on someone to shoot because I couldn't. It was all handheld. I couldn't physically deal at the end of the 12 hour, 10 hour day, whatever it was the first day was like having this camera on my shoulder trying to focus trying to focus on the story of the actors like not having any AC any grip anyone else like a PA even to just like take the camera in between takes, like, didn't have any of that. So I just I called a friend of mine who shot some low budget stuff with me before I said, Can I call in a favor, you know, I don't have a lot of money, I'll throw you a few bucks, whatever I can afford, do you want to do a feature I knew he wanted to do narrative. He came on board. So we ended up being you know, a team on our biggest day of like maybe four instead of three or whatever, whatever that came out to be. And that was it and the next film I By the way, I don't advise that because I'm making as you know another feature right now and I'm I think for certain things films, you can do that. And that's probably what you should do. But you have to know if it's right for the film. And in the film, that film that it works for, but it was a struggle. It wasn't I'm not going to paint the picture that like it was, yeah, when you can make a movie with three people, it's easy. It's not easy, as you know, I mean, it's hard and, and it under certain circumstances, it's really hard and maybe not even a good idea. So on my next film, I mean, we're still gonna be a small crew, but but we're gonna have enough people there that at least, you know, the operate day to day operations are moving me, you know, wanting to blow my brains out everyday.

Alex Ferrari 15:40
No, I agree with you. 100% my first film, I did that I did the I was the DP on and I was a shooter and that and then I was like, you know, I don't want to do that again. My back, I hurt myself. There was physical damage to me, like just carrying that black magic rig on my shoulder. And it was like, all this kind of and it was out. It was out of shape. I was just out of shape. So then on the second film, I was able to do it. And I brought on my my trusty dp Austin, and he did a great job. But the thing I think everyone listening should really understand is that you said something very, very interesting. The parameters, this, is it right for the story? Is it correctly, sir? So both those movies, both my movies and your movies, you kind of try to build the crew? Is this right? For this film? Is this camera the right camera for this film? Is it Do I need 30 people on set? Can I get away with three people? And we'll do the story justice? If you're trying to do a huge action movie with three people, that's not gonna work?

Noam Kroll 16:39
Exactly. Yeah, it's and even within the micro budget, I think if I can add to that idea, it's like, Okay, so my philosophy has always been, there's these rules you have to follow as a micro budget filmmaker. But if you follow every single rule, you're gonna wind up with the same movie that everybody else is making. And it may not be that great, it may be great, it may be great. And you can figure out some brilliant idea that works within those confines. But my philosophy has always been like pick one or two rules that you're willing to break and and if it means extra work, or extra sweat equity, or money, or whatever it takes, like break that rule to make it if it's going to really count and if it's going to really make it special. So on this one, I broke the location rule of like, you know, everyone says shoot in one location or shooting two or three locations, like every single day, we shot in a different location, none of which we had permits for. And it was the most literally the most stressful experience of my life. And I've had some pretty stressful experiences in my life. And it was so insane to try to pull that off. And in the end, I mean, I can look at and say okay, I'm on one hand, I'm very happy because we had you know, we shot in all these different locations, I feel like it added a lot of production value. That was the goal from the beginning. Like let's not just put this all in like one room, although that could be an amazing movie, if it's written that way. But let's like it's a road movie. It's a it's an experience, let's like show the landscape Let's drive up to the desert, like let's just every day you know, go somewhere else. And, and it was really that like, compounded with all the other craziness. Like we had a van that literally broke down every day and that my dp when he was supposed to be filling up with gas because he was driving it he put the gas in like the engine coolant tank or the water tankers. Like I was driving, just to go on a bit of a tangent like I'm driving to set one day, which is the Google Maps pin that I dropped in the middle of Palmdale that I sent everybody like 3am the night before Sure. And, and I just see the van we rented this like hippie VW, like, you know. And I see it pulled over on the highway and I'm like, Oh, god, that's not our, our van is it? I see the DPW like, empty, like opening up this thing and gas coming out of the van on the on the ground and we're already like late to be shooting. And like that was just like, one day, you know, every day was that basically, it was it was crazy. But for me, like,

Alex Ferrari 19:19
I'll tell you that like you know that that thing you're saying that you made you so nervous and stressful. I found exhilarating. Like Yeah, maybe that's because I've got a few more years on you that I just found like, I don't care. You know, as you get older, you give less of a crap. I mean, you just really gave a crap as you get older. So I was just like super excited. Just like I don't have permission. This is awesome. Yeah.

Noam Kroll 19:40
No, and I hear you and I'm normally like that. It was like that for the first couple days. But we got I think part of it was like we got kicked out of three different locations. I think all within like the first two days of shooting and like your actors are lighting. Oh, God. Exactly. So my anxiety was less about like I've been kicked out of shooting places before in and it's usually as you know, it's like, Hey, you know supposed to be here. It's like, it's not that big of a deal. But at the same time when I was getting anxious about is like, Okay, I'm paying everybody for these days, there's not a lot of people, the actors only have a little window to do this. If we don't get the scenes that are really important for the movie, like, getting anxiety that like, can we even like make this movie Can we put together one of the most important like scenes in the first act is when the two girls or two main characters meet each other, and we're shooting it on Venice Beach and I had like, you know, at least three hours, four hours mentally blocked off for that scene. within five minutes of shooting it, the security guard came up and I like begged him like can we just have literally five minutes and on the fly? We had to think like okay, what do we rewrite now? How do we rework this? So it was you were trying to shoot on Venice Beach? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 20:53
Did you like you're rolling hard? Man, that's that's a tough place.

Noam Kroll 20:56
Oh, yeah. Especially with like, we had like a full, you know, like, a full black match. I mean, full Yeah, full Ray and like audio, which is really what gives it away you have someone with like a giant boom pole and all that. And it was just, you know, it was a risk I was willing to take, and I took it and we got the shots we needed. But yeah, the scenes that should have been like for our scenes, we had to all of a sudden, like, turn a dialogue scene into like, a visual exchange, that's going to happen over five minutes of shooting time. It was having to deal with that stuff that was getting getting stressful. Um, but But yeah, I mean, there were definitely good days to wasn't all crazy, but it took its toll for sure. On Me and the crew, I'm sure. So

Alex Ferrari 21:39
Let me so you shot the whole thing in 12 days, right?

Noam Kroll 21:42
Yes. So it was 12 days. And I think we did like two or three pickup days. Two of which, like, I just cut out of the movie. So they were total wasted day. And one of which was basically me driving around by myself with a camera like getting Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 21:59
So can you please tell the audience because I think this is something that directors and filmmakers don't really realize, especially us lazy filmmakers and out of shape filmmakers, that this is a physical game. Do this. This is not Peter Jackson's shooting Lord of the Rings with a with a recliner lazy boy on set. Like he literally had a lazy boy on set. And they would like PJ's would carry the lazy boy from place to place that he would just sit down and go to village video village. That's not this. So a lot of filmmakers don't understand that when they go down this road. How physically grueling. It's going to be. Can you please just tell a little talk a little bit about that?

Noam Kroll 22:41
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I could add a lot to that conversation because it was in this film in particular, that's I agree with that. 100%. And that's true of I think, like every film on this scale I've ever worked on. But this one in particular, was so grueling that it literally took me the better part of a year to physically recover, I got sick, I literally developed like, I was sick on and off for six months, I was like going to the doctor, my skin was messed up, I was going to the dermatologist, we're shooting in like freezing cold weather with no sleep all day. I was going to like these like sweat. Like in Hollywood, they have like the sweat lodge was shot. Yeah, this is my wife and like sweating like a pig. I'm like, I'm getting better, I'm getting better. And then the next day, I'm like, vomiting. Like, literally, my body, my immune system was completely destroyed, I was more sick than I've ever been in my life. I'm actually going to do a, an article at some point on my website about like, just the toll it took. And I couldn't write it until that because honestly, it was like, psychologically damaging. And I was like, how could I ever do this again? And and, you know, that's why on the next film, you know, I've put all of these measures in place, because I know how hard it is putting so much more time into prep, putting so much more time into just making sure that the team that's on board is going to be able to make it you know, it's still gonna be really hard. I don't doubt that but like, just some of the contingencies that can put in place to like not get to that point. I'm like, it's it was no joke like if I did another film like that, I literally think it would, it would actually kill me.

Alex Ferrari 24:25
I think you've now you've purposely you've you've absolutely scare the hell out of the audience. You've totally and I had hives and I had my arm literally fell off I had to attach it again. It's like

Noam Kroll 24:37
I'm not joking. It wasn't that far off. And I again I don't mean to say everything is going to be like that. But it literally in my case on this film it was and it and I'll blame myself for the way it was scheduled. It's a lack of pre production. Pre production was the main thing because like there were days where, you know, I didn't wear because it was all guerrilla. You know, I had an idea maybe we're going to shoot somewhere. I found on Google Maps and I drive there the day before to scout it. And now there's construction there. And then we have to shoot later that night. And then it's three in the morning and I just got home. I don't we're filming the next day. And like I'm up all night trying to put a call sheet together because there's no ad. So it's just like, if you don't want to, you know, destroy yourself making a film. Yeah, I think the key is, is just know what what you cannot handle, at least try to predict that. And then it's money well spent, like, we all want to do things as cheaply as possible. And that's great. But like, in retrospect, like I would have way rather put a couple of 1000 bucks on a credit card and had one or two more people involved, that could have lightened the load a little bit. So it's not always necessary. But you know, again, this wasn't a film where we're shooting it in one house with two actors having a conversation if it was that, then that's, you know, Piece of cake. It's in physically, maybe, right.

Alex Ferrari 25:54
I'll tell you, when this will be the last thing we'll do to scare the hell out of everybody listening. Yeah, on my first film, this is Meg. I had this rig that I built out to carry the this it was it was a ridiculously big rig for the camera was shot to the 2.5k Blackmagic Cinema Camera. So I'm carrying this rig, right. And then afterwards, I develop a trigger finger on my on my hand, because I was gripping it the wrong way. I just had surgery. This is two and a half years that I had surgery on my hand, like oh my god, like literally a month ago. So like I cannot say never went in what is it better now? Or? Oh, no, no, no, the trigger is gone. But now I'm like, I'm in therapy. I mean, like physical therapy, trying to fix my yet fix my finger to kind of close and I have perfect grip, I can grab, I can do everything. But like if I go too cold, like I close too much, it hurt because I'm still healing. I'm literally like four or five weeks out of the surgery. But I literally had surgery because of that. So that's why the second movie, I was like, Austin, just you carry the camera. I cannot. I'm not I'm not

Noam Kroll 26:59
Looking at you live and learn exactly. And I think people are so gung ho to just say, and I'm of this camp, like, I preach this on my blog and everything every week, but it's like, just, you know, take a punk rock attitude, just make the movie, do whatever you have to do to make the movie, like, no one's gonna make it for you. And all of that's true. But at the same time, I think you have to think of it as like a long term career in the sense, like, you're gonna make a lot of movies and you know, don't do something that is going to like don't don't mess up your back so badly that like, you can't make another movie for another two years, or whatever. It may be like, you know, you have to pace yourself. But anyway, yeah, I mean, I again, I hope hopefully nobody's too freaked out. I do want to reiterate that a lot of it was it was so much just a personal like, just choices I shouldn't have made that I did make, you know, but um, but I think there's a version of that film that could have happened where where it would have been a little little bit smoother sailing.

Alex Ferrari 27:56
Yeah, we're not trying to scare everybody listening me but but it is something to be said that, you know, a lot of times filmmakers, I know a lot of them, I was one of them eyes, I'm trying to get back into better shape. As you get older, it gets harder and harder. But you, you're out of shape a lot of times, you know, because you were watching movies all day, you know, or veggie got Netflix, or we're writing a screenplay all day or something like that. It's not very physically, you know, strenuous. So then, you know, when you go out and like hey, yeah, and you your mind thinks you're 20 but your body's like no, not anymore. And you're you're still really out of shape. And it really does take a toll on you. Especially when you're trying to do these kind of running gun indie. I'm gonna go steal shots. kind of mentality. It It is. It happened to me on the first one, like I had to do on mag I literally had to do a trek up to the Hollywood side. So I, me and the two actors that my main actress and a friend, I did the hike, I did the hike, like eight years earlier. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. Yeah, I know that hype there's like a horse crap all over the train. Right? And then and then there's that steep like it's a steep like walk up like towards the end. It's a 40 minute hike. you're you're you're a marathon runner, sir. It took me much longer than that. But um, but I'm carrying the gear with me and I'm just like, you can literally see shots in the movie where I'm like, Alright, alright, let's do a shot here. As you can see the camera just cuz it's just me with the camera. I'm like, I'm trying to hold it again. I have to literally stabilize some of it and impose because oh my god, but you know what?

Noam Kroll 29:44
Well, I was gonna Sorry to interrupt but I was gonna say physically 100% I mean, it's so taxing. But I think even psychologically when you're done, and this probably applies to to larger scale films as well but you're you Your mind is so hyper focused on this one. thing for even if it's a delicate five day shoot a 10 day shoot whatever it is, like that's all you're living and breathing every question you're asked is like, where should the camera go? Where should this go? And you're so you know, you're you're, you're it's a great energy and it's positive and you're in great spirits. But there's also this vacuum when it's over, where like, you're physically depleted, your mentally your brain is still at, I don't know, if everyone feels like this, but like, I feel like my brain is like, still on overdrive. And the mistakes or the things that you didn't get are starting to set in. And the reality of like, the post production mountain, you have to climb miss it. And so there's this tough period, for me, at least, like in between finishing a crazy shoot like that, and then actually shooting the material that is like, almost as hard as shooting the movie. It's just like getting through the mental barrier of like, okay, let's let's, you know, gather like recharge the batteries right now, take maybe a couple of weeks away, or whatever, and then get back into it. And especially when it's like someone like yourself, or myself, where you're editing your own movie, and you're coloring your movie, and you're doing all like, I mean, it's it's a lot to take on. So you got to pace yourself. That's my only advice is like, just pace yourself. And know, it'll be hard. And if you know, it's gonna be hard, it's not as bad. If you think it's going to be easy, then everything is like, Oh, my God, this is a problem. Now, when you know, it's going to be a problem, then at least you're prepared. At least that's how I see it.

Alex Ferrari 31:23
What I find what I find funny is that this conversation is now turned into a therapy session for indie filmmakers. Like I love it. I love that. It's just like all of a sudden, like, and then I had this thing happen to be like, it's great. I love it. I love it. Because I feel exactly the way you do. And everyone listening, just bear with us. Because I think this needs to be said, when you're done with a shoot. I always feel like we're like carnies. Like we're Carnival folk. So you gathered this group have unique, interesting people, because generally, there always are interesting people that make this thing. And you do this intense thing, especially in the micro budget where it's intense, and fast. And it's not like you're sitting on a movie for six months, like these big blockbusters like you are building this family, but you do it so quickly. It's like going to war almost. And then when you're done, I get to at least go back and you get to go back to go into post. So then we're still kind of in it. But you missed that, that relationship you just built. And then when the post is over, now you're just like, want to go back like I, you know, shooting, shooting ego and desire at Sundance, I didn't want it to stop, I only shot for four days, but I really didn't want it to stop. It was just so much fun. And that that's why and I don't know if you've had this experience or not. If you meet someone that you worked with on a crew, especially if you're the director, and they were working with you 10 years later, and you just find them somewhere. It's like no days have gone by, you're like, Oh, my God, because you've gone through this kind of thing together. That Yes, like cathar? I don't know, what do you think?

Noam Kroll 32:58
No, I agree. Because it's so intense that it like it burns it in your memory. It's like this thing that happened, you form these relationships in these bonds, even if it's like, there's challenges or there's days that aren't as good, like you remember those almost in a positive light. as the years go on? Yeah, you forget the stuff that was challenging. And it's just, you know, it's like the same when I've gone on. Like, when I was younger, I went on this this trip, when I was like a teenager, it was kind of this organized trip, and I was on with these people that I'd never met before. And I if I see one of them now, like 15 years later, I'll say it's like, it's the same thing. It's like, I just saw them because you go through this intense experience. And I think going back to what you said before, you know about like just the topic that we're on. I think it's so it's great that we're getting into this, I think it's so important because I think so much online. And this applies even to like my website, and so many other websites, like lots of filmmaking websites that I'm sure people visit that are great resources, but they don't always talk about like, the actual realities of working in the business. And like the sustaining that over a long term, which is like, not always that responsible not to share, and I want to do a better job myself of sharing more of that, because, you know, it's easy to tell people as I often do, to just pick up your camera and make a movie, it's a lot harder to tell them that like, you know, this is this is gonna be you know, could be very challenging, and that's okay. But like, you know, that's just I feel like it's important conversation. So I appreciate that you bring it up and that you're, you know, engaging on that because you don't hear that that often in the dialogue with indie film or micro budget film.

Alex Ferrari 34:34
No, because it's not sexy. It's not it's much it's much sexier to talk about the new camera that came out with a new lens that came out or that how you know, he's even sexier to talk about distribution. Like you know, it's not sexy to talk about like, Oh, I just jacked up my back for a month because I'm carrying this thing because I'm completely out of shape. And I just like you know, and like now I'm literally on a couch for a month because I threw my back out really bad now I'm in therapy. Be because of this film. I admit, that's not sexy. But it is reality. And that's what I try to do with indie film hustle is to kind of, you know, show people the realities of the business and you do such a great job on your site as well, that just tell people like, Look, I my mantra is always this follow your dream, but Don't be an idiot. And that is my mantra on filmmakers. Like, follow your dream. God bless. Go follow your dreams. Yeah, but just Don't be an idiot about it. You know, don't ya mortgaged your house? Yeah, no,

Noam Kroll 35:29
I mean, it's, it's an incredible advice. And I don't think I I'm sure I said to this to you, at some point offline, but like, going back to the inception of this story, and, and your mantra and your philosophy on everything, like, that was really a huge help for me as a filmmaker, because it just so happened that, you know, I had in my mind, I don't know if it was like, November, whatever, of the year of the year before I shot it. And then it wasn't until December that I really, like committed to doing it. And in that window, I'd been listening to you a lot. And it really helps me hearing your story and just your philosophy to kind of reinvigorate because it felt like, you know, I'd been saying that for a long time. I've been feeling that for a long time. But like, there weren't a lot of other voices, that were kind of preaching that sort of stuff, and doing it in a real way where it's not just like, you know, top seven cameras to buy for your micro budget, India was like, you know, you would really personalize your, your, the lessons that you were sharing with people and your experiences, and like, that really resonated with me, and I'm sure with many people, so I just want to, you know, give you, you know, props for that, because it was, you know, definitely an important part of getting at least getting like committing to doing this film, you know, so

Alex Ferrari 36:42
I appreciate I appreciate that, man, I try, I try as much as I can. I know, I've actually been reached out by a lot of people from the tribe, that they said, like, I was making my movie the same time you were making your first movie, and I was living everything every day, I would listen to you and your journey. While I was making my movies, I felt like we were making our movies together, even though we weren't literally making them together. And I've heard that happen with a lot of people who kind of go back to those those early podcasts of me talking about mag, and how I made that little film and, you know, it's it's, it's, it's exciting, man, I just tried to share as much as I possibly can. Because I, I think there is a lack, I think you do fit a really great hole in the space as well, where there aren't a lot of people talking about the truth. There's a lot of fluff, there's a lot of, you know, like you said top seven cameras to shoot your, your your DSLR is or what's the best way to you know, this or that. And you know that there's an element of of that kind of stuff on on on my site, but the majority Yeah, but the majority of it is the truth like, and that's when I interview people like yourself or other guests. I go deep into like, so what were you feeling like anytime I have a Sundance winner on? So what was it like when you got the call? Like, well, yeah, it was that time like, I want to know, because I've never cut.

Noam Kroll 38:02
No, and what I love about how you do that is like just to throw a reference in here, unrelated to filmmaking. But I I'm a huge fan of Howard Stern's interviews, he I don't know, if you listen to him at all. He does, like the best celebrity interviews and they're great, because it's not just what's your project coming out? Like, you know, what, some fluffy stories, it's like, you know, it talking about the nitty gritty of like, the emotional components of it, or the psychological components, or like the realities that like, aren't always talked about, but are actually underlying impetus for things that happen or get made or that are, you know, it's just important. So yeah, again, I think I think you've done an amazing job. And that's so nice to hear that other. So many other filmmakers, unsurprisingly, have been inspired by what you're doing. And I know, that's a gratifying feeling, I'll get that sometimes from my blog, where, you know, someone will say, Hey, I made this film. And, you know, I was because of this article, or that podcast or whatever. And it's, it's, it's nice, because, you know, it's not just for nothing, you know, it's not just about making a living doing it, or whatever. It's like, it's, it's a, that's the best part. So anyway, lots of that. And yeah, I get lots of compliments on your site from tons of people that read mine as well.

Alex Ferrari 39:12
Thanks, man. It's, and the other thing is, and I want everybody to hear this. I've said this a bunch of times, but I want everyone to hear this, again, is you have no idea what impact your work will do on other people in the world, whether that be a podcast, whether that be an article, or even more, so your art, your actual films that you make, even if it's a little short film you put up on YouTube, you have no idea what that impact will have on a certain person at a certain time in their life. You always have to think that way. When you make art, because I've watched things. I mean, look, we all read the book, Rebel Without a crew, like Robert Rodriguez is amazing book, that book, how many careers that that book launch? How many careers is that book still launching To this day, it's like one of those mythological texts in Yeah, in our business, especially for my generation, what i was i was there at the time that it was happening. And you know that you've no idea the impact that those little 10 minute film schools he put on his DVDs did for me back in the day, like, they're so huge to him, he just like, I'm just gonna do this and throw it out there. But you just don't know what it does to people. And I've realized that doing any film hustle over the years, but but again, people watch certain movies and have an emotional attachment, or an emotional cue from it that I never intended. But to them, and yes, and so it's it's really important what we do in solving, we're not heroes, we're not, you know, fighting forest fires, or we're not saving, you know, you know, saving people from cancer. But yet, it's still important in the human condition in the human experiment.

Noam Kroll 40:47
Yeah, in many ways, when you have any platform, whether it's like the movie you're making, whether it's a blog, whatever, your podcasts, like, you have a responsibility because they believe it, they buy into it and and you're like, by default in authority on the topic. And and, you know, it comes with a lot of responsibility, even if it's a small audience, like when I had when I was starting my blog, and I'd have, you know, 100 people a month, like the first month or whatever, like it was, it was just building, but I still felt like, you know, that's still 100 people that's still 100 human beings, like what if one of them takes what I say the wrong way and does something stupid? Like I always had that in my head, I feel like you You certainly do as well with with your content. So yeah, I think it's important in definitely transcends, as you said, to just the movies, you're making the stories that themes, the messages that are in your film, like, it's amazing how much and it's inspiring now, how much these like smaller micro budget films even that, like, yeah, they may not get a big theatrical release, they may not show in the dome in Hollywood, but someone may see it, and it may like save their life like it may not to, like glorify, but it may, there may be something that you touch on that really resonates with somebody, and it may it may help them, you know, so yeah, so I couldn't agree more.

Alex Ferrari 42:05
So let's talk a little bit about distribution, the very sexy topic of set of distribution. So you decided to self distribute your film? Can you tell us why you did? And what's your experience with it? so far?

Noam Kroll 42:18
Distribution for us was something from the very beginning, we thought about doing and wanting to go down the self distribution path, specifically, just because it was such an experiment, this movie, as we are talking about, it was like no budget, very small crew. And it was it was just this idea of like, Can we do this thing where we make it fully in house and hat and distributed. And even though it's going to be a small project, a small distribution, if it's all in house, like is there some sort of financial model where that actually makes sense where you can make a movie for 10,000 $12,000, and actually turn a profit with it. And the only way that I felt like that made any sense was through self distribution. With that said, a few months into the process, once well, more than a few months, once we were done editing, I got a couple of offers from distributors. And we got a lot more later once we started doing like festival stuff. But we had a couple right off the bat, one of which was really enticing. It was a distributor that essentially wanted to retro finance the film, so they would have technically then become a producer on the project that would have just paid everything, they would reimburse me for everything I paid. And then they would have essentially come on board as as an equal partner. And that's something I hadn't really heard of. And I thought, you know what, that's rare, but it happens. Exactly. And, and for me, I was like, Okay, I hear all these stories about people making $10,000 movies, and it's flushed down the toilet. If we get anything, we're lucky at the same time. It was so early, and we hadn't premiered yet or anything. So I kind of put a pin in that. We ended up premiering here in LA it dances with films, which is, which is awesome. They got, you know, I guess they have a lot of distributors on their radar. Because once we got in like before we even we even premiered it. We started getting emails from all these distributors. And I wrote again, another article on this on my website, there's about 40 of them in total, that we engaged with either sales agents or distributors. And I went through one by one and vetted them and spoke to a lot of them on the phone or just, you know, had meetings or whatever. And it was just so clear, that was not right for this movie, like and it wasn't just a financial thing, it but that was a big part of it. Um, for anyone listening that hasn't gone down that path. Most distribution companies are on this level are not I don't wanna say they're not legitimate, but they're not the deck is sort of stacked in their favor. You might get a deal or an offer where they'll pack a distributor film, but it's really being packaged with a bunch of other Other films, it could get held up, you know, going from film market to film market for, you know, who knows how long? Maybe it'll get sold? Maybe it won't, maybe someone will see it, maybe they. And it's just it's such a gamble. And even the best case scenario is that like, you're gonna make, you know, a small amount of money back unless you have name actors. Or if you have some festival prestige you premiered at Sundance or something. But for the most part, like, at least the distributors I spoke with, and you get, some of them are quite reputable. The deals just weren't. It wasn't enticing. It wasn't anything, where

Alex Ferrari 45:37
What are some of the deals, I mean, in dropped, you would like what are some of the deals that you can say like, you know, percentages, and caps and all that kind of stuff. So people understand what these deals are?

Noam Kroll 45:45
Sure. So I think standard when it comes to percentage is usually around anywhere from like 25 to 35% is kind of like the standard depending on how involved they are. And like what the marketing is going to look like and all of that. And honestly, upfront, like usually what I would be looking for, if if I don't, if I'm not sold on the fact that they're going to really be able to get this to market or get this into the world in the next six months a year. What I'm looking for is some sort of minimum guarantee, I don't expect the world I know what the film is, I know it's low budget, and there's no stars. But if you know if someone came along and offered us a distribution deal, where they were going to take 30%. And they were going to give us an mg upfront that would cover a good chunk of our budget, like whether it's, you know, seven grand, eight grand, something like that. And I liked working with them, I would certainly consider it. But we didn't have that right combination, we had some people offering us money, but they didn't have a good track record. We had other people offering us no money, but they had a pretty good track record. But it was it just didn't feel thematically like the film would be necessarily a good fit for them. So at the end of the day, I'm crunching the numbers. And I've you know, I've had a lot of experience marketing things online selling products through my website, I understand on a basic level e commerce, and I just felt my gut feeling was just like this is if any film is going to be self distributed is this film. And that's exactly what we did. We went through distributors I know you did with your film, we had, it was it was such an easy process, other than actually giving them the film and the artwork, which is already made, all we needed were closed captions. We got those through reddit.com churches, like crazy how that system works. It's a whole other conversation. And, and yeah, and then you know, now it's getting into so we did pre orders, I'm not sure if you want to jump ahead there yet. But that's something. So I think that's something really important to understand. It's something that I've learned from other people in the business as far as how pre orders can really boost your sales on day one. And the goal is that basically, all your pre orders convert to a sale on day one. So if you have 30 day window, and every day, you know, you get whatever, 10 people and that becomes 300 you know, you get 300 pre orders. On day one, it looks to iTunes, from what I'm told, like 300 people bought your movie that day, that helps shoot it up in the rankings, right and so, so that was the strategy and I didn't use any paid ads. I didn't you know, I use basically like the resources I had, which are my blog, my some of my cast like the lead actress helped shape she you know, she has a bit of a following for some music stuff she's doing. So we promoted it the best we could we got a bunch of pre orders, we hit the top like within two days, we were on the top pre order list, like relatively high up I was I went on there, honestly, like two days into it just to see who was on like they have on iTunes, like the top premium category. I thought okay, like, I'm not gonna see the movie on here. No way yet. But like, let's just see. And then sure enough, like I'm going through, and a movie, I just saw blaze with Ethan Hawke that he directed, which was awesome, was on there. And we were like above, we were like ranking before that. And it was it didn't stay like that for the whole time. But it was like that for like a week. And that was the first point when I realized like it actually the playing field really is leveled. Once you're dealing with iTunes, you still you know you're still up against a big competition. We are looking at like studio features and all of that with all this marketing dollars. But you can compete like you can compete in certain categories. And one thing that I haven't done yet, but we plan to do, it's just been a challenge because the other feature is is just a banding so much of my time right now is we're working on cutting trailers specific for Facebook. So we're going to cut these square trailers and they're going to have captions and they're going to be like 15 to 30 seconds, and we're going to market them to people that are interested in similar fields. to ours, but that are also interested in like, things like Kickstarter or seed and spark or Vimeo or like just people that might be into that indie film world, whether they're filmmaker or not. And we're going to use Facebook ads to target them. And I'm going to use a lot of what I've learned from Facebook ads in the past, just from other products that sold and all that to apply to that. In an ideal world that would have rolled out like day one, like we launched, we're on iTunes, and that rolled out that was actually my plan. It didn't work out that way. Because just my timeline just went absolutely haywire on my new project. But that's, that's the strategy. And so far, we're recouping the budget, I'm checking, you know, disturber every day, there's more sales, there's more rentals. And it's really an amazing feeling to know that we just have control over what's happening. So it's been really great so far. And in the future, we're going to obviously open up the door for other platforms. So typically, and I'm sure you've talked about this in other episodes, but for anyone that's not as familiar with windowing, I mean, obviously, with a theatrical film, you window, the film in the theater, and then you know, wait a couple months, and then it's released on DVD or whatever. with digital, you can do your own windowing strategy. So you always want to do iTunes first or transactional VOD, whether it's Amazon, you know, iTunes, I guess Amazon has their own version. They also have like the other other subscription platform as well. But then you go to like subscription. And then which is you know, Hulu or whatever. And then you can go to like ad based, which is also

Alex Ferrari 51:37
AVOD is a turn on. Yeah, another big way of making money now.

Noam Kroll 51:41
Exactly. And some of those platforms are actually really good.

Alex Ferrari 51:45
Oh, yeah. I know, people making four or five grand a month off of AVOD.

Noam Kroll 51:49
Yeah, because there's not the same movies on there. So like on Netflix or something, you're competing with the Latin whatever Adam Sandler movie they made that month, but on your on, like, you know, a to b TV or, or one of these platforms that like you maybe never heard of, but people are actually on they're renting movies, and there's not as much competition. So anyway, you kind of want to Window it. So you're going from like, trying to transactional to S bar to a bar exactly as I don't want to tell you but um, but yeah, so that's kind of where we're at with it right now. And it's exciting just to see it all. Finished. This is the first time I've taken it to that point. So it's definitely a nice experience.

Alex Ferrari 52:29
And I've spoken a lot about self distribution. I'm a big proponent of self distribution, but I also want people to understand that it is not for everybody, and for every film, you know, for a micro budget, like yours, and like my films, it makes sense, you know, and we also have an audience we have the platform more savvy about marketing or savvy about how you know, the sell products online. So it makes sense for you to look if you came to me and Alex, what should I do? I'm like, dude, you should self distribute. It makes unless you get some sick deal. It makes all the sense in the world. But if you have a movie that costs you $300,000 it's tough distributions a Moche tougher sell.

Noam Kroll 53:09
Yeah, I think the only situation where that that can work is, is when you have some sort of, if there's no stars in or anything, if you have some wind in your sails, as far as a built in fan base, if it's, let's say, on a topic, or winds, you know, top prize at Birdland or something, there's some in at that point, you're getting offers anyway. But, but when you when you already have this, like huge momentum, and you have a way to ride that it works. I, I that's the only time it could work. But otherwise, I totally agree with you. Because, you know, you spent all this money and and you're not. I mean, the thing is, if mere you makes a movie for 10 grand, and we make 50 grand on it, like

Alex Ferrari 53:51
We're good. We're fantastic. Yeah, friends, I'll do it. So let's rinse and repeat that four or five times a year, we're in good shape.

Noam Kroll 53:57
Exactly. In theory with the right script, you're shooting something in a week or two weeks or less. And yeah, posting it in a month. And you could do a couple of those a year you could be making in theory with the right marketing strategy with the right topics with a good trailer understanding how to market if you're really savvy with that you can make a living and I'm at the very very beginning of that experiment but I'm seeing it already start to pay off I'm literally seeing the money come in and and you know, is not not getting rich with them. Certainly making a lot more of my income from my traditional revenue streams with my commercial production, all that but understanding how that works is so important to me right now. So we can scale it up so I can apply it to other projects. And I do think there's a breaking point where you can scale it up so far, but at a certain point, at least right now. It doesn't make sense if your budgets too high. You need someone to come in and just say okay, you made that film for half a million great. We're gonna buy for a million and they cut you a check I mean, that's the dream for sure. But yeah, I mean, the beautiful thing about these little films, these $10,000 $20,000 movies is like, you can make some money with them, you know? And and if you know what you're doing, it's just Yeah, not everyone wants to put in the work as a marketer, which is the, which is the big question.

Alex Ferrari 55:19
It's a dirty word, but it's a word that we all need to understand. Yeah, that question. Now, can you tell me a little bit quickly about your film? Your new film? Yes.

Noam Kroll 55:27
The new film? Yes. So new film I'm super excited about it's called White crow. It's about a woman who gets a heart transplant, and then she starts taking on the characteristics of her heart donor. So it's based on this very real thing. And some people would call it real, some not, but it's called cellular memory. And it happens when people get a new organ. And there's like, certain side effects that sort of they they experienced as a result of the surgery. And as a result of, you know, feeling this sort of bizarre connection almost to the other person. So it started as, like that idea. And turned into a genre film. It's not, it's not I wouldn't call it a horror film. It's kind of like a creeper. Like it's a slow burn kind of psychological thriller, with maybe some hints of horror. And it's all about this woman realizing the person she's sort of becoming mentally and and, you know, psychologically, and her personality is maybe not a great person, and she develops this relationship with her widow. And there's, it's just such, I think it's so fantastic. Yeah, it's really, really, I mean, we've had a lot of people read it and give us great feedback. It's been something I'd like toiled over for a year, basically, on the script, which I've never done. And yeah, so we did funding, I'm funding most of it myself. We did a crowdfunding on seed and spark we raised, like, just under 15k. Which was a nice, like extra for us. And then we also got, I was telling you offline, but we got to pitch to the duplass brothers. So they sent them this script, they put a little bit of money as like a grant basically into the movie, which is just like such a great confidence boost for all of us. We're super grateful for that. And now we're getting ready, shoot shooting in two weeks. shooting on. Yeah, it's crazy. It's been in the work. This one's not as crazy as the last. So in terms of the I've learned my lesson, so we got two locations. They're both book, they're both you have permission for both. We're not breaking.

Alex Ferrari 57:31
Oh, what's the fun? I mean, come on. We gotta have a coke Hitchcock stole shots like he was on studio movies, he would just grab a camera and run down the street and shoot some

Noam Kroll 57:40
Oh, trust me, No, you're preaching the choir, I've got we've got a few of those in there. But most of it, we're going to be legit for and, and yeah, we got a bigger crew, we're shooting a Lexa. Like, it's going to be treated more like a full production. But you know, it's kind of in between, like what I did last time and what you might see, unlike your average quarter million dollar half million dollar, like indie film, so it's gonna be nice to have like a bit more of a infrastructure. So anyway, I'm doing lots of that, if anyone wants to see it. I know. I listen to your podcast. So I know you do your plugs sometimes at the end of it all mentioned. So we're on. And there's not a ton on there yet. But we're going to be rolling out loads of behind the scenes content on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram is just white crow movie. So there's a lot coming on that front, if anyone wants to follow along.

Alex Ferrari 58:32
Cool. And I'm gonna I'm gonna shoot you the questions I ask every guest. I'm thinking you might know these questions at this point.

Noam Kroll 58:39
I do. I didn't think to prepare them, though. But okay.

Alex Ferrari 58:43
What advice would you give a filmmaker wanted to break into the business today?

Noam Kroll 58:47
Um, let me think about that. Because the first thing that comes to mind is is what everybody would say, which is just go and make your own movies. The longer answer to that, I think is understand understand story and understand character, because I think a lot of filmmakers and I fell into this boat, like, it's so easy to get wrapped up in the gear. And it's so easy to think if you get the right camera, it's, you're gonna be a professional, but the hard part that just there's no getting around, there's no way you can buy yourself out of it is like, read a lot of scripts understand writing, even if you don't want to be a screenwriter, like understand what it takes to tell a good story. Because that's something that you can't buy and that you can't learn other than just doing it so. So and you don't need to even that doesn't have to cost you any money, you know, to spend time writing or reading scripts. That's that, for me been the most beneficial thing. So hopefully, that that resonates with somebody.

Alex Ferrari 59:48
Can you tell me what book had the biggest impact on your life or career?

Noam Kroll 59:53
Yes, I think, okay, the biggest book that I'm gonna say too, so I have to Same mariachi El Mariachi because that just blew blew me away without a crew. Yeah. Yeah, I mean for sure. As far as honestly, business is concerned, Rich Dad, Poor Dad is the right book, great book, that book literally changed my life. And to sum it up for people in one sentence, it's basically all about how you understand how you make a living, and how a lot of us think about making a living based on essentially trading our time for money. And you know, just getting paycheck. And that's how we make our income. And this book is all about, like, how do you create valuable assets that will pay you so you can eventually make passive income and have free time to do things like make movies? So yeah, I mean, it's the furthest thing from a film book, but it literally changed my life from the day I read it on. So I have to have to mention it on

Alex Ferrari 1:00:52
Great book, great book. Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Noam Kroll 1:00:59
I think it's honestly, in the film industry, I don't know if it took me the longest to learn. But the most important and probably took me a long time was how to really be collaborative in the truest sense. And I think I've learned this a lot when I was writing my script this year. This is by far the script I'm most proud of. It's also the one I was open most to notes on, I sent it to so many people got so much feedback, I wasn't offended at the feedback, you know, I wasn't sensitive, it was like, these are people that might watch the movie, don't screw it up. By the time they actually can don't screw it up on said screwed up now and learn from those mistakes and be collaborative. Other people have other things to offer. And as the director Your job is, in my opinion is you're you're the filter is the writer, you're the filter, you take the good ideas that make sense for that story. But if there's a good idea coming from your pa or coming from, you know, whoever doesn't matter, be open and receptive to it. Because I think without good collaboration, you just you don't have anything really so.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:02
Yeah. And what are three of your favorite films of all time?

Noam Kroll 1:02:05
No, God, I hate this question.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:08
Whatever comes to mind whenever comes to mind.

Noam Kroll 1:02:09
Okay, so I'll say this is a recent favorite film, but it's been a huge inspiration for my movie right now, which is persona by Ingmar Bergman. I just I absolutely love that movie. I'm one of I'll give you my three favorite films like I've seen this year. So that's one of them. And not recent movies necessarily. The other one would be a woman under the influence john Cassavetes, it just like it's just such all my god.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:39
It's a raw, it's a raw nerve. It's what it is.

Noam Kroll 1:02:41
It really, really is. And my dogs barking so I guess I got it. The third one. The third one would probably be something by Aronofsky, maybe the wrestler, that movie is just so raw and simple and pure. And it just blows my mind. I could watch that movie every day. And there's very few movies. I'm not into wrestling. I'm not

Alex Ferrari 1:03:05
No, you

Noam Kroll 1:03:06
You know what I mean? It's just like, I just it's Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's a masterpiece, I think so those would be my three right now. And that'll change them tomorrow.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:15
Yeah, now where can people find you in the work you do?

Noam Kroll 1:03:18
So my main blog is sort of my hub for everything so Noam Kroll, NoamKroll.com that's got all my stuff is sort of on there. I've got a podcast, which you've been on with that people, everyone tells me how much they love that episode. It's show don't tell on iTunes. And then, like I said, white Crow, white crow movie is the handle on all social media. So

Alex Ferrari 1:03:42
And the name of that and the name of the movie we're discussing is?

Noam Kroll 1:03:45
Shadows on the road, which I should also promote as well as promoting everything but that right now. So that's on iTunes, if anyone wants to watch that, look up shadows on the road. At some point, we're going to be doing like Vimeo on demand some other platforms for people that aren't in the US or Canada. Because that's the only where it is right now. But yeah, shadows on the road. You can see the trailer on my website and on Vimeo and stuff if you Google it. So yeah, I think that covers it.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:11
Man! Noam thank you so much for being on the show. I'll put all those links in the show notes, guys. Thanks again, for being on it is a pleasure talking to a fellow fellow indie film hustler because you are an indie film hustler without question

Noam Kroll 1:04:23
Ohh Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:24
So thanks again for being on the show. Brother. Thanks for dropping by.

Noam Kroll 1:04:26
Thank you so much. It's such a such a pleasure. I appreciate it.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:30
I want to thank Noam again for coming on the show. And really sharing his experiences and his knowledge with the tribe. Thank you again Noam if you want to get links to anything we talked about in this episode, including links to his blog, his podcast, and his film, please head over to indiefilmhustle.com/298 for the show notes and just a quick reminder, time is ticking on the filmmaker contest the $30,000 A web series contest that filmmaker and I are putting on for the tribe. So if you guys are interested in submitting a pitch for the web series with the potential of winning $30,000 to shoot the entire series, head over to filmaka.com. That's filmaka.com and sign up. It will end February 4. And that does it for another episode of the indie film hustle podcast. I hope you guys got some knowledge bombs out of this episode. Thank you again so much for listening. And as always keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive and I'll talk to you soon.