IFH 787: From Ultraviolent Wrestling to Transformative Filmmaking: The Story of Matthew T. Burns

Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:53
On this episode, we're going to talk to a guy I've been meaning to talk to for a very long time. He and I actually have bumped into each other many a times, whether it be at a wrestling show while he's a wrestler and I was in the audience when I was in wrestling all those years ago, or even on social media, where we just keep bumping back and forth into each other. This man has wrestled all over the globe. He has wrestled some of the biggest legends in wrestling, and he has since retired and become a full time filmmaker, and we're going to talk about all of that, and we're also going to talk about his new film, the trade, all that good stuff on this episode with guest Matthew T. Burns. You know, you and I have actually met before. I don't think you probably remember, but it was at a CZW event, and I actually one time, not only did I hand you a chair during a match, I forget who you were wrestling, I just remember handing you this chair. But we actually talked afterwards, after the show, and then made man ponto came up to talk to both of us.

Matthew Burns 2:54
Oh, man, I had no idea. I mean you, you and I have talked. Do you remember the instance in which you're handing me the chair I'm trying to I wonder if I'll recall this, like, can you remember anything about that

Dave Bullis 3:06
You were leaning over the rope, you were in the ring, and you called for a chair, and I held, I picked it up, and I gave it to you. It was already folded out, like it wasn't folded up. It was, it was, it wasn't collapsed. So I handed it up, and you were in the main event. It was a champ soccer Arena in Seoul, New Jersey, and I can't remember who you were wrestling. I want to say maybe Rick Blade.

Matthew Burns 3:31
That's funny to hear that, man. I can't quite remember that. Hey, man, we've got a history.

Dave Bullis 3:36
Yeah, yeah. It's just, it's a small world, but, and that's why I was when I when I saw you were in film, I was like, You know what? It's a perfect chance to catch up and and just talk about that. But that's that was just that story I wanted to say, because I was like, Man, I just remember giving you that chair. And it's funny too, because I actually went with my manager, who was my manager at a video game store was working at, and he went with me because he was, like, so excited to see CZW. And he was like, Oh, I hope I won't see anything that's gonna, like, make me get sick or anything. And I'm like, No, I guess that's subjective, but. But I was like, I know, I don't think you will. And he ended up loving it. And after that, though he never, he just like his he just really was one of those guys that he liked to show, but he just his love affair of wrestling was starting to sort of fade away. And I kind of understand that, because my love of wrestling started to fade fade away around, like, 2004 2005 and then I just kind of stopped watching altogether. I mean, the, I mean, you know, I know you retired in 2003 you know, I'm sorry I'm getting way ahead of this interview. I'm just like, I'm just going all over the place here.

Matthew Burns 4:45
Well, that this just confirms we, we got to talk, man. We, I you, you mentioned that around 2004, 2005 is when you kind of drifted away from wrestling. And I retired in 2003 and so I, I had watched. Wrestling for a couple years, and just tracked with everything that was going on, but I came to realize, like it kind of needs to be all in or all out for me, because I don't always want to feel pulled or tempted, you know, pull pull back toward the ring. But so it's just interesting. It seems like you kind of veered away from wrestling the same time that I did, and maybe started really pursuing film, just like I did.

Dave Bullis 5:22
Yeah, that that was right around the time that, you know what it was, honestly, Matt was, it was a combination of all the independent promotions I liked, like ECW had folded, which was like 2001 you know, a lot of the other independents I was watching. A lot of my other friends weren't into it. The only thing that was keeping my interest in wrestling was legitimately CZW and big Japan. If it wasn't for those two promotions, I would have just stopped altogether, because WB was awful at that point, and I was like, you know, I just don't really want to do this, you know, I just don't want to follow this anymore. And it's funny enough, because right around that time was when I actually started training to become a pro wrestler. And then I after that. I just really, after I got done training as a pro wrestler, I really just stopped. That was the end for me.

Matthew Burns 6:09
Who did you train with? I didn't know that. I didn't know you did that.

Dave Bullis 6:13
Yeah, see that. I saved all this. Matt, I saved all this because I want to, I wanted to actually talk about this on the podcast. So I trained with a couple different people. My main training came with King Kong Bundy. Do you remember him?

Matthew Burns 6:28
Yeah, I was, I was on a couple shows with him. I remember I, I had a girlfriend who was a wrestler, and she brought a big batch of cookies for everybody. This is, this is my King Kong Bundy, memory, but all of a sudden it's just like, where did all the cookies go? And you realize, like, he literally ate all of them.

Dave Bullis 6:48
It's funny because I actually we had to go to me, and this my best friend at the time. I'm both training to be a wrestler at his school, and we had to go pick him up one time to go to practice, right? So we pick him up at his house in Jersey, and we knock on the door. And bunnies like, come on in. Boys, come on in. And, you know, he's sitting there in this big burka lounger recliner type deal, eating a half gallon of ice cream, watching Hunter. He's nowhere near ready. And we're like, you know, King, like, we got to get training in like, you know, I don't know, half an hour or so, and he goes, he goes the, don't worry, they won't start without me.

Matthew Burns 7:27
This is just his way of dealing with the Indies, I suppose, after, you know, bigger stages and just how to how he's coping with the Indies,

Dave Bullis 7:37
At least with Bundy, at least he was a lovable guy, like, I mean, my, you know what you want to tell you, what my, uh, Matt, you know my favorite Bundy story is, and this has almost nothing to do with Bundy, was the fact that there was a Chinese restaurant right from right down, from where we trained. And he, one day, he orders a bunch of food, and he says, You guys come deliver to me ask for King Kong Bundy. So we were in the ring working out right? And the delivery guy comes through India, through the front door, and he comes into the ring, and he goes, I have a delivery here for a ping pong rundy starts dying.

And and Bundy comes out of his office. He goes, That's me. And he goes, started calling him ping pong after that. And he goes, he was so angry about that. And he's like, he's like, the next guy who calls me Ping Pong is going to be out in the street this but he was such a cool guy sometimes. And it was, I know I'm going off on King Kong Bundy here, but I'll tell you this one another funny Bundy story, because you get this, because you're, you know, you grew up watching them, and you, obviously, you're a professional wrestler. One time Bundy splat, it was on an indie, on an indie show, and He splashed the guy, and the referee goes, 123, and Bundy goes five, and the ref goes, 123, and Bundy, at this family friendly indie show, yells out, you piece of shit. The promoter was like, Hey, Chris. He goes, this is a family friendly show, and you just yell shit in the middle of the ring in front of kids. He goes, he goes, I'm sorry. He goes, I wanted that five count, and he started counting over from one.

Matthew Burns 9:33
Oh, man, I'm so glad you have some some indie wrestling memories and stories, even though your your tenure was kind of brief. I mean, those moments, they tend to happen when, when you hang around any of the former stars or the whole indie wrestling scene. So that is classic.

Dave Bullis 9:51
I was very fortunate, Matt, because I was in I was involved with pro wrestling for like, this little, teeny, tiny window. And I was just fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right time and just sort of do my thing. And actually, it was funny enough, I actually applied, because I started talking to zandig about going to CZW school back when it was like, run by like John Dahmer and Eddie Valentine and those guys. And that I never actually went to a practice, but I was talking to Andy about showing up. And then I ended up trying to go to ECWA School, which was run by Mozar Fontaine. And then I started, then I went to Bundy school. But you know enough about me. Matt, I'm sorry. I'm like, monopolizing this conversation. I'm so sorry. So I want to talk about you. I don't talk about you, know, your your whole career and everything. So when you started off in professional wrestling. Now, what drew you to actually get into professional wrestling?

Matthew Burns 10:57
It was same as same as you. ECW, I was, that was a promotion that, of course, came up out of the underground on East Coast, United States, and had a little bit more edge to it, had a little bit more risk taking, had a little bit more colorful characters and crowd involvement, and it was extreme. And so that was, that was what got me into it as a teenager, and what ultimately motivated me and inspired me to pursue it once I hit my late teams,

Dave Bullis 11:28
So, and you grew up in Minnesota, correct?

Matthew Burns 11:31
I was born in Minnesota, but I grew up in Pennsylvania, so, so I was right there when, when ECW was, you know, in in Pennsylvania and New Jersey and Delaware and New York and so I hit up several of those shows a month. I was going all the time with my friends.

Dave Bullis 11:50
Oh, that's awesome. So you were, like, really, really close to me, because I, you know, I'm from Philly, so I'm actually, you know, I went to a lot of those shows as well. So what was your favorite, one of your favorite ECW moments, actually going to those shows.

Matthew Burns 12:04
The first time I ever went to an ECW show. I was 15, and this kid that I knew from school, his name was Phil, he said to me, do you want to go to this pro wrestling show? And I was like, I don't know. And he's like, you can bring weapons. And I said, What? And he's like, yeah, he's he's like, Yeah, you bring weapon. I'm like, What do you mean weapons? And he's like, Oh, just stuff in your house that you know you wanted the wrestlers to hit each other with. And I didn't know what he was talking about, yeah, but bring some cookie sheets or whatever. And I did. And this, like I said, was 1995 This was before the Athletic Commission really got involved. But every show, not all the wrestlers, but a good number of them, would Brawl through the crowd. Just reach out whatever you hand them back. The guy with it, give it back to you. It was very interactive, and oftentimes you get something to hand it back to you with blood on it. And I couldn't believe this. I could, could, couldn't fathom so that was what hooked me initially. But, you know, Paul Heyman with his booking, he was also sure to get some real athleticism and very, very talented, you know, athletes on the shows as well. And so it was just a very polished and well rounded product. But that, that was what really caught my attention as a teenager.

Dave Bullis 13:24
Yeah, and I know what you mean, because it was just so different. It had such an edge to it, which, you know it, which is indicative, because it was like that, that sort of backlash. Because, I mean, you remember wrestling in like, the early 90s to mid 90s, they had like, characters like, like Duke the dumpster, drossie and Bastion booger and all those characters, and they were just so cartoony. And then in WCW had, like, the dungeon of doom, and you know what was going on there? And then all of a sudden, ECW comes into a completely different product. It's a lot edgier, a lot more in your face, a lot more hardcore. And I mean, you know, you just saw and you're like, What the hell is this? You know? You know, and some people once told me that, and this really was what really I remember most about, you know, how, how they branded themselves. And it was, WF is fake, WCW is fake, but this, right here, is real.

Matthew Burns 14:15
I can, I can literally remember, at one point, I was wearing like, five ECW shirts a week at school. In high school, each day I'd wear a different one. I was I was really a fanatic for a while, and I remember giving school presentations. You could talk about whatever you wanted. And I gave a presentation on how this wrestling was real. And at one point there was some heat between Cactus Jack and Sandman. And I kid you not, I was at a show. I think it was in Jim Thorpe, Pennsylvania, but it was sort of like a battle royal. A new wrestler comes to the ring every, I don't know, two minutes or something like that, and Sandman comes out with a fresh sing. A poor cane, which is like strands of bamboo, you know, tied together, swings it hits Mick, Foley, cactus, jack on the side of the face, the cheekbone, and shatters the cane. I'm not kidding. You swung it like a baseball bat, and pieces flew in the crowd. And I picked up a piece of this cane, and I this is one of the things I brought into school just to try and convince people that this is real, real wrestling.

Dave Bullis 15:27
It's like, it's like, it's like, hey, look, look at this teacher. It's a piece of cane that that got some guy named Cactus Jack, and it busted over his head. And it's just, I did the teacher like, freak out and be like, What the hell

Matthew Burns 15:40
It's funny, because I think what spurred this on was the teacher, I don't know, overheard me talking about this wrestling and how it's real, and she's like, you know, it's all just effects, and they don't really get hurt, and the blood is fake. And I remember also bringing in a cookie sheet that had blood, just like crusty blood, drift drift all the way down it. But I remember telling the story, and the teacher was just perhaps,

Dave Bullis 16:16
Hey, Matt, are you still there? So if you to hear me. We were going good, and all of a sudden you cut out. There's like this whistling, oh, now it's gone. It's back. Now there's like this whistling. I can hear what that is,

Matthew Burns 16:37
Kind of an open area. I passed through a valley, but let me know, as is the whistling still there?

Dave Bullis 16:43
No, it's gone. Now I don't know what that was. It was weird, but I'm sorry. So could you take it right from where you had you said about the crusty blood coming down the cookie sheet?

Matthew Burns 16:52
Yeah. So I think, I think what caused the, what motivated this presentation was a teacher overhearing me talking about the wrestling being real and saying, That's not real. That's, you know, they're stunned men, and the blood is fake. And so I brought in this piece of Singapore cane. I remember bringing in a cookie sheet that had crusty blood on it, and that kind of silenced the teacher, but the half the students in the class are just looking at me, like, what's with this dude? Like, why does he even want to talk about this stuff? But it I was riveted as a teenager,

Dave Bullis 17:31
You know, I was the same as you Matt, when I was in high school, excited all the wrestling T shirts and stuff. And I remember one time I wore Yoshihiro Tajiri t shirt, and it was all in Japanese. And a friend of mine was like, What the hell is this? He goes, You were now you're not even wearing shirts in English anymore. He's like, it's all in Japanese. He's like, he's like, I don't even know if this guy's been a wrestler or whatever. And then I know you did this as well, but you got involved in backyard wrestling. I did, I did that as well. And it went from this, like my league that I had, we were like, you know, it was a fun little thing. Then all of a sudden it started getting more and more like violence, to the point where our final, our final time that we had a an event, if you want to call it an event, what happened was the neighbors up at the top of this hill could see down onto us, and they actually called the cops on us, because they were like, Oh, these kids are having a brawl down there. And it was so weird how it happened, because it's like, one bike cop shows up first, right? One lone bike cop, and he goes, Hey guys, what's going on? And we're just like, because we were all just standing there, like, hey dude, you know, like, you know, we were just, it wasn't like a confrontation. It was like a friendly conversation. Of like a bike cop randomly coming to my friend's backyard, and he pulled because he had a driveway little way, all the way down. It was really weird how we had this set up. So the bike cop just went that used that. And he's like, Well, he goes, we got a report that there's a brawl, or a mob brawl, or something going on. I'm like, well, not here. Well, all of a sudden all these other cars started coming, like police cars are coming down, like, oh my god, are you guys or what are you guys doing back here? Well, all of a sudden, my friend's mom comes out of their her their house, and she's drunk and shit, and she's trying to, like, what are they doing out here now? And, I mean, it was like the it was like the worst case scenario that could have happened, and it's just, like, afterwards, the friends and I were like, I don't think we should do this anymore. And and everyone, everyone kind of agreed, because he the guy, the guy, obviously we didn't get, like, in trouble or anything. But we're like, you know, if something were going on, it would have been, like, terrible, but I know you. You also did backyard wrestling too, right, right, and right, Matt?

Matthew Burns 19:42
Yeah, and it's funny Hearing you say that, I it just dawned on me. I I think number one, we would have been pretty good friends had we grown up together. Two, we might have led to some, some, I don't know if I'd say jail time, but some trouble with the law as well, because, like, whenever I had somebody. Stroke gas on the on the fire with me, like we ended up getting in trouble, and that probably would have been the case. But, but yeah, we, we dabbled in the backyard as well this. This was before that whole movement, but we would, we would just call it ninja battles. We'd play music, store up a bunch of weapons, and it was just unscripted chaos. It was funny. Sometimes people got hurt. It was exciting. But yeah, we did this, you know, at least once a month, sometimes a couple times a month, and would end up limping around school with bruises and little cuts and stuff. But yeah, that was, that was a big part of my my teenage years as well.

Dave Bullis 20:46
Yeah, we would have been good friends, Matt, we probably, we probably would have done jail time together, because you and I are kind of close in age. I'm 32 and I know we're so we're kind of close in age, and it would have been kind of funny to go to go to school together. I, you know it, but in because, again, you were right, probably right up the street from me, because I'm right here in in Philly. So you're probably right. You're probably growing up right down the street from me. I didn't even know it, because we've had all these like, you know, cut meetings and stuff like that. But, uh, so, you know, as you, as you went, you know, gotten done and did all this back here wrestling, you know, aka ninja battles, at which point, you know, did you want to go professional with this?

Matthew Burns 21:27
This was around the end of high school I had, I was naturally gifted when it came to art. That was something I just gravitated towards. And everybody assumed I was going to go to art school. I was going to pursue it, but I had a real bad time with some of my teachers in high school, and especially my senior year. And at the same time, I had a growing interest in this wrestling stuff and so with some really frustrating things with teachers and getting in trouble my senior year, which was when I was trying to clean up my act. But I had some unfortunate things happen. I've told this story before, but essentially, I designed our schools yearbook cover, and I made a really elaborate design, put some symbols on it that were inspired by Greek mythology, and I can't remember what else, but they printed the yearbooks. Passed them out last minute. I get accused of putting satanic symbols on the yearbook cover. It was a huge deal. They weren't going to let me graduate. They hired a special investigator to look into this. He got back and he said, if anything, these are more gang related, not satanic. But he said, this is nothing to worry about. I was cleared of all charges, but like, I was so upset over this incident and other bad experiences with some art teachers in high school that I I just said, Screw it. I'm going to wrestling school. So, yeah, that was my senior year. It was just a growing interest in ECW, and I had finally started putting some muscle on working out. And then I just said, You know what? I think I could do this. This is what I'm going to do. I knew it was going to be short term, but it was. I figured I'd take a break and shake off all the school drama for a while and just do something really wild.

Dave Bullis 23:21
Yeah, and honestly, I think you dodged a bullet not going to art school. I honestly, you know listeners this podcast, no man, I am against college. I know everybody immediately, as soon as I say something like that, everyone goes what you know, but I am, and I have a college education. I graduated from college. I have a huge student loan debt. That degree has helped me not one iota. And also I worked at the college I graduated from. That was a terrible experience, and I can tell you, man, but it was just, it's just funny you mentioned, you know, just going back when you were talking about, they had a special investigator come in. You know, schools, it's, it's unbelievable, when schools want to spend money on something stupid, they will always find 1000s of dollars to spend money on, like an investigator to investigate stuff like this. But yet, when, when people are actually asking for money for, like, real things, they're like, oh, sorry, we have nothing to spend.

Matthew Burns 24:23
I can, I can remember looking the principal in the eyes, and I said, you listen to me. I said, Not only am I going to graduate, I'm not going to serve one bit of punishment or anything for this. I said, mark my words. Principal didn't know what to say, but fortunately, it ended up being, being right. My dad was out of the state or out of the country. I can't remember at the time, he might have been visiting my sister in Spain. She was going to college there, but my dad called the school as well, and he said, You guys are fortunate I'm not there right now, if you're going to do this to my son, and it was just so. Absurd, like accusing me of being a Satan worshiper and trying to put these symbols on your foot cover. So it was a small town I grew up in. It was Lancaster, Pennsylvania. I was in Elkins Park for a while, very close to you, but then I was in Lancaster with, you know, small country, small town environment. So, you know, people get freaked out over that sort of thing, and it's a witch hunt. And so unfortunately, I went through that. But yeah, that was, that was rough.

Dave Bullis 25:28
Yeah, Lancaster is, you know, probably about 45 minutes, 50 minutes away from me. And, you know, I know the small, tiny talking about, you know, because I actually had a friend of mine. We actually shot a movie in Birdsboro. Which I'm sure you know what that is.

Matthew Burns 25:43
Yes, I've heard of Birdsboro. Yes.

Dave Bullis 25:45
Okay, so we actually shot a movie there, and it was just funny, because when he said that town name, I'm like, What the hell is? What the hell is Birdsboro? Like, it was just this little like, Burg and it's just, I've been up there. So I know, you know that, that mentality, you know what I mean, like he's trying to, you know, he's trying to, try to, you know, you know, poison, the mile. He's saying with these satanic symbols. You know what? I mean, it's but, but, you know, when you when you were talking about going to college, and, you know, and you had a choice being going to college or wrestling school. I honestly, you know, Matt, I think you did the right, right thing, not only because we're talking have this conversation, obviously, but with, you know, decisions you made, but also because I honestly, most people I know that go to college just aren't happy at all.

Matthew Burns 26:29
You know, I agree with you, and I have heard your previous podcasts, and I know your stance on this, and I'll say that I believe self motivation plays such a big part of how well your college experience does or doesn't go, because I can tell you, I didn't get all the film education I needed in college, but I had a tight knit group of friends that we just worked so hard on each other's shoots, and that was where we learned the most. And so as far as What college did for me, it's just the schedule, the discipline, having deadlines, and then learning how to work with people, and, you know, having projects that have to be turned in, so the routine. So I will say, yes, you can do all of that on your own, but you have to be very motivated. And, you know, you can't say, oh, well, my job got in the way. I can't go to college, or you can't say, oh, my, my kids or my whatever, you know, are distracting me. It's like you have these deadlines you have to hit. But I, I know exactly what you mean. If you're not self motivated, you're not gonna learn what you need to learn.

Dave Bullis 27:37
Yeah, and it's, you know, just with collagen in general, what I noticed, just when working in a college, actually at several colleges, and also at attending a college, is, you know, a lot of the kids who go there are always told you have to go to college if you want a good job. And I see a lot of the people that go to certain colleges, they're just not there to learn and to get better. They feel like it's just something where they have to do to get that degree, and it's like, let's just get, let's get this over as quick as possible. And I think that's just bad as well, because it's just like, it shouldn't be something where you're like, all right, I gotta do this if I want, if I gotta, you know, go out and get this degree and whatever. I mean, half of the where I worked at, mainly where I worked at was one of those discounted college that you always hear about, you know what I mean, where it's just pure fluff. There's, you know, nobody ever knows what's going on. That was literally every, every trope, every stereotype you could think of. College was this college. It was just a small little college right outside of Philly, and it just, you know, there was, like, really nothing going on there, and half the kids there, or even more than half the kids had, like, no plan. It was just like, we're here, you know, we're just to sort of pass the time, or whatever. You know what I mean. And I, as we sort of talk about, like, education in general, you know, you and I are big movie fans, and you really don't need to go to college to take a lot of moot admit, to learn about, to learn about movies, or even you go to film school or whatever, because that's a big topic, obviously, on this podcast, is if Film School is even worth it. And you know now, you know, if you want to, if you or I, even nowadays, wanted to gain more knowledge of film we could get a Netflix rental. I could go out right now and buy a camera package, and it would be cheaper all of that. And I could even add a lot more stuff to it, then it would be cheaper than what even one semester of college.

Matthew Burns 29:33
It's absolutely true. And I feel like, you know, we went through the season of, oh boy. Like, here come the movies. Like, everybody can make a movie, but I actually feel like it's slowly going to rebound where quality is going to be necessary, because it is so easy to make a movie, or at least compared to what it used to be. But I'm actually that's kind of a different topic. But, like, I'm hoping the industry is going to go in that direction. I mean, the mainstream things are always going to be a formula that, you know, they know, that the masses want to see. But I'm just saying because it's getting so easy and you can really educate yourself and, you know, create the product on your own. Like I'm hoping that, and I believe I'm starting to see it like you have to be really, really sharp at your craft if you're gonna, if you're gonna cut through all that, you know,

Dave Bullis 30:32
Yeah, and that's another thing that, you know, we talk a lot about this on the podcast, is that that allure, that everybody can make a movie and honestly, hand to God. It is true. Everybody can make a movie, you know, because we have our phones, we have camera packages that are getting cheaper and cheaper. The difference is about making a quality movie. And I have been on bad film sets. I've been on really good film sets, and I can, you know, and also I can see what the end product is going to be, excuse me, and I, and I can see, you know, as we sort of go through all, you know, through all these different phases of what we're doing, going with through now, with film and distribution and marketing and and all the new wonderful advancements and cameras, you kind of start looking around and you go, wow. You know, people are, I had Sean Baker on here, who shot tangerine on his iPhone. And it was, you know, I think it won Sundance. You know, I had a on somebody else who shot their film with a GoPro. And, you know, it's, it's about how, I mean, obviously, there's a lot more to it than I when I'm saying I did so anyone's listening to this and think it's just, you know, picking up a phone and, you know, going out and filming, and that's not what they did. They did a lot more to it. But I think you're absolutely right, Matt. I think, honestly, it's gonna bounce back sooner than later, and I think it's because I think a lot of people are just gonna make one movie and maybe sort of go away from it, you know. I mean, they're gonna say, Hey, listen, I made my movie in my backyard with my friends. And, you know, maybe they didn't like, they didn't like the experience, and that was sort of it for them. And then, and then, you know, they're going to have to realize, because the quality that people are used to is going to always going to be there, and especially now with YouTube and Hulu and, or not, not Hulu Vimeo, you see, like people, like, like independent filmmakers, and within the quality that they can do. And it's just, you know, it does raise the bar for, you know what an indie standard is,

Matthew Burns 32:26
You're exactly right. And the two main questions are always going to be there, who's in it and what's it about? You know, if you're sitting in the room and somebody says, Oh, hey, this movie is coming out this weekend, you know, who's in it? Oh, it's Tom Cruise. What's it about? He's, he's trying to stop this bomb that's that's gonna blow up the parliament building in London or whatever, you know, but those questions, especially the What's it about, you have to have a really sharp hook and a really sharp idea and notion. And I still think it's tough to sell a really good film without a star in it, if you don't have the star in it. And so I think they're going to be weeding through, you know, the top talent. And so because so many people are going to be coming at them with authors and with films nowadays, it's going to have to, it's going to have to be a rock solid concept. And so, you know, I'm optimistic that, like I say, it's going to start to weed out the it's great that people are making films with their iPhones and their GoPros, but you know, that's not going to work 99 times out of 100 you know what I mean? It's like, you're going to have to be very, very sharp at your skill if you're going to pull that off.

Dave Bullis 33:36
Yeah. And you know what I found to be most true about all this too, is, you know, when Netflix first started, I actually were, I was actually, you know, a pretty early subscriber of Netflix. And you know, what's funny was that they used to let you submit your films to Netflix directly, like it wasn't a whole process, like there was literally a tab that said, submit your film to Netflix. I actually had friends who got their movies onto Netflix with, like, absolute dreck. And they knew it was dreck. And they were like, you know, they were telling me, like, hey, Netflix accepted my movie. And I was said, what really? And I said, Wow. And then I, you know, it was basically like a, kind of, like an all shoot at YouTube at that point, then, except, well, my perception of it, because I kept, I was like, Wow, this, this was, like something with a mini DVD cam. Nowadays, it's like all that, obviously, is long gone. And now they, you know, you have to have certain, even deliverable requirements to even get on Netflix, even, you know what I mean, because they they actually have the the minimum requirements listed on their website that say, though this is what you're gonna have to have if you ever want to see your movie on our website, and which kind of sort of brings me, what I want to talk about with you is, you know, you got into filmmaking, so, you know, and you know, we're talking about the film education, so when you were still pro wrestling, you you actually, you had a job at Blockbuster at some point, right?

Matthew Burns 34:58
So. Yeah, and my my first two years into film school, I was still wrestling on the weekends, and keeping that a secret for those that don't know, I was involved in some very violent wrestling, beyond hardcore wrestling, ultra violent wrestling is what they were calling it at the time, and which would leave me bruised, limping, oftentimes with stitches. And I wasn't telling anybody about this in art school. I was trying to hide it, and so I used to say it was always like the movie Fight Club. I'm just trying to make up an excuse of what happened to me and live in this double life. But anybody who's gone to college full time, and anybody who thinks going to art school is easy, you're like, it's not real college, man, is it ever hard work everything that they dump on you. And so those first two years were very, very hard, you know, flying out on the weekends, getting banged up, bruised up, cut up, and then coming back and trying to maintain a full schedule at college. So, so, yeah, I was, I was juggling boats for a while,

Dave Bullis 36:05
Yeah, you know, because I remember, I forget what it was, but I saw a photo of you, you know, doing your, your trademark hand gesture, and you, you're with the blockbuster shirt on. And I remember saying, Oh Mon, you know, you know your wrestling name, Sick Nick Mondo. I remember saying to myself, Oh, Mondo works at Blockbuster. That's freaking cool, you know, because I imagine, you know, now, as we're talking, you must have been able to get a lot of free rentals to get, like, a really cool, you know, film school, you know, right your fingertips, by actually watching movies, kind of like, what Quentin Tarantino did.

Matthew Burns 36:37
I really enjoy working at Blockbuster for a long time, and like, they'd have the employee recommendation wall, and nobody cared about it, but I really did, and I'd update it and just chat with customers. And we were a smaller store, but my sales numbers were matching anybody like in the bigger district stores. I'd sell the rewards programs and whatever else is, if I, if I believe in something, I can sell it, you know. But I it was really fun for a while, you know, for a few years working there, but I did have a couple times like I said I wasn't telling people I was wrestling. And one time I was working in, the manager was there, and somebody came in and and he sees me, and he's like, yo. He's like, Sick Nick Mondo. And I just kind of froze, and I was just like, Hi. And he's like, Yeah, I saw you wrestling the West Saint Paul armory or something, so on and so forth. And I noticed my managers kind of watching, like, what? And then he came over afterwards, and he's like, so what was that about? And reluctantly, I told him, but then I you know what I did? I walked over. We had a video game you could rent. It was backyard wrestling too. There goes the neighborhood. That's, that's what the game was called. And I was, I was in that game, and I was actually on the back cover of it, because he didn't believe me that I was a wrestler. And I was like, yeah, that's something I did for a while. I had just quit at the time, actually, but, but it's just a weird client. I was, I was friends with Ken, Kennedy, and he was living in Minnesota, and so was I, and just one time, randomly, he brought Matt Hardy into the store to meet me, I'm working, and just Ken walked, you know, brought him in, and I worked out laughing. I didn't mean to when I saw Matt, because it's just, like, the funniest thing, like, I didn't expect Matt Hardy to come in, but, yeah, then we chatted for a while, and that was really cool. And then I got to see them wrestle at the target center a couple days later, or day later, or something like that. But, but, yeah, weird, weird mix of worlds, for sure.

Dave Bullis 38:36
So Matt, can I just ask? Is Ken Kennedy a good guy in person?

Matthew Burns 38:41
Man, I I got along with him instantly. And, yeah, we're both living in Minnesota, and I know there's some heat in WWE some some clashes of people. I don't even know the whole story that unfortunately led to him not going as far as a lot of people expected him to there. But I don't quite know what happened, but I'll just say, like I we love that guy. We brought him onto some film projects, and my friends, everybody just was so entertained by him. And I always enjoyed being around Ken. Really, really, did

Dave Bullis 39:16
You know? I know, I'm sorry to sort of go on a side topic here, Matt, I have a funny little Ken Kennedy story. I was, remember when he was in that movie behind enemy lines for Columbia. Well, I actually he was going to be in Philly for a signing. So I said, you know what's my friends? And you know what? Let's go down there. I want to meet him, just for shits and giggles. And we both like, you know, we both, we both like movies. He means friend of mine, and we both, at the time, were kind of iffy about wrestling, but we knew who he was. So I said, You know what, let's just go down there. We walk in, and this woman is standing there and saying that we both need to buy a copy of the movie for us to meet him. So I said, Okay. I said, All right, then. So I go to pick up a copy of the movie, and it's retail. They didn't even have it on sale. It was like $35 or whatever for this blu ray. And I said, Are you serious? You're really gonna charge us or not even, like, discount this thing, and she goes, you get to go up there and meet Ken, Kennedy and blah, blah, blah, this and that. And my friend actually refused to do it. And it ended up where we where he refused to buy a copy of the movie. And then that, then this woman was basically just goading us into a fight. Was just like, finally we just left. And we're like, oh well, but we never, but we never got to meet Ken Kennedy whatsoever. And it was just kind of weird that we would only up there. We ended up just getting turned away because, like, we wouldn't buy this movie at like, a full retail price. And my friend, obviously was just had a big problem about it, but it was just, I don't know, I just always think about that. Every time somebody mentions Ken, Kennedy, it's the first thing that comes to my mind,

Matthew Burns 41:03
What a what a disappointing experience. I I would imagine, if Ken knew about that, he wouldn't have had that at all. I mean, I used to, I used to be on indie wrestling shows with him, and he was nothing, but he was, he was a loud mouth and he was a heel, but he'd always take time for pictures and signings and everything. So that's, yeah, that's unfortunate.

Dave Bullis 41:23
That's so good to know. And hopefully maybe one day I can have Ken on the show, because he does, he does do acting, he does do movies, and I would love to talk to him at some points, but, but, you know, but, sorry, Matt, sorry to go on that little side note there, but, but, so you retired from wrestling, and right around like 2000, 2003, 2004 and the reason was, was, were you just, we just burned out from from Pro Wrestling, or was this always sort of your plan to, sort of, you know, may retire after a few years.

Matthew Burns 41:55
I got hurt pretty badly in my final performance. I was a death match tournament. Death matches, just basically a match that involves weapons or extremely dangerous things in the ring. I did three matches that night and won that tournament, but I got hurt very badly in the second round. However, my plan was always to wrestle for maybe one or two years when I started training, my goal was to go to ECW, the company that we were talking about earlier. But as you mentioned, they went bankrupt in 2001 this was right when I was starting to develop a name for myself, and so I did wrestle for a couple years past that, it was about four and a half years that I wrestled almost five. But no, I never, I never planned on having a long career, and so it was just a matter of picking, picking the right time to leave. And so, so, yeah, that was I actually decided I was gonna quit, like, three months before that performance. That was when I decided that,

Dave Bullis 42:58
You know, I remember that, that the leap. Or, I'm sorry, not the leap, but I remember the, the sort of, I think Zandy gave you the Power Bomb or, or a gorilla press slam off of the rat of our was it racks bar and billiards off of the the roof, through, I think, three tables. And in fact, he, you know, you didn't even hit a table. You just hit right to the concrete.

Matthew Burns 43:20
It was, it was terrible. I was knocked out cold. I severed an artery in my spine, or not in my spine, but to the side of my back there was, there was an artery. I didn't even know I was bleeding that bad, and I had never been rattled like that in my life. I when I woke up, I couldn't move any limbs. It took me a while to even get any movement back in my limbs and so in bad concussion and probably all sorts of fractured bones from that. I actually didn't go and get x ray but, but I was, I was hurt very badly,

Dave Bullis 43:53
And but then you still went on to wrestle again later that night, again against Ian rotten in the finals.

Matthew Burns 43:59
I've told people, oftentimes the referee will reach down and, like, put two fingers in your hand, and he'll say, if you're okay, squeeze my fingers. And I remember it was, like, right after I got the movement back in my limbs, he did that, and I squeezed his fingers. But when I tried to sit up and I could feel how hurt I was, it was, it was the first time I ever thought like I shouldn't have squeezed his fingers, like I'm hurt that bad, but the plan was for me to win that match and go on to the finals, and so, so I did, but I was in awful shape.

Dave Bullis 44:33
So, you know, so, Matt, so what point did you know after you you won the tournament? Did you even think about maybe going to the hospital after that and just saying, You know what? I saying, You know what, I think I'm just too banged up. I think we should go to the hospital

Matthew Burns 44:48
Between matches, before I went out for my final match that night, I was really out of it. I can only remember about half of that. I had a terrible concussion, but when a nurse pulled a piece of glass out of my. Back. I started gushing blood like profusely. They couldn't get it to stop. They were actually going to call an ambulance. They said, Call, call an ambulance. But I still hadn't told hardly anybody. But because I knew that I wanted to finish my last match and then be done, I said, No, just wrap me up. Let me finish this, I needed to go to the hospital, but I was, at that point, I was so done with wrestling, just because I was carrying a lot of stress, and I was really banged up. I was really beat up. I already had a broken wrist coming into that tournament, and I was just fed up with it. And then I got hurt really bad there, and I couldn't stand the thought of having to come back and do the finals like, you know, a month later. And so I said, just let me finish this. You know, I'm not sure that was the best decision, but it was, it was what I, what I chose at the time.

Dave Bullis 45:50
And I mean, you know, for for everyone listening to this and then wondering, like, my god, you, how do you, how do you come back from something like that? Just not, not even talking about professional wrestling, but just in, just in general, you know, were you just your endorphins just so upright at that point where you're just endorphins to sort of taking you over, and you were sort of like on autopilot.

Matthew Burns 46:13
I I barely was functioning. I can remember bits and pieces. I remember trying to call my final match, and I would just have moments where I would drift off and say nothing. And Ian, rotten, who I was going to wrestle, kept saying, like, Are you sure you can do this? Like, are you sure, are you sure you can do this? And so he had to, pretty much just like, hand feed me that last match. My head was so scrambled. I was so out of it. So, no, it wasn't even an adrenaline rush. It was more just, I want to get this over and go home and know that it's done, you know. So that was the only thing carrying me through.

Dave Bullis 46:49
And so, so in the aftermath, you know, you were tired from professional wrestling. And, you know, I actually ended up, a few years ago, seeing a documentary you made called unscarred, the supermondo story. And I wanted to ask about that, you know, because I was actually funny, because you had a lot of footage on there that I thought was hilarious, you know, like you guys put the toilets up on the on the train tracks and stuff like that and all that crazy. So you know, what inspired you to make that documentary, you know, chronicling those years from from you as sort of like a teenager, all the way into, into wrestling.

Matthew Burns 47:24
I was, I was dabbling putting together. It was basically just going to be like sort of a scrapbook, way of remembering things from my wrestling career. But a company caught wind of it, and I was offered a deal. It was basically commission. So I made that thing and sold it for a distribution so it was during film school. I only had like, six weeks to get that thing done. I'd committed to a direct TV date, and so that was on top of my full load of, you know, college classes. And so just rocked that thing out pretty fast. But it was, it was commissioned basically through a friend of mine, through a contact I have

Dave Bullis 48:04
So and then basically, you know, because I love all the footage. So basically, when you were, you were shooting all this stuff, you know, this is back when, like, mini TV cams, or even remember those big VHS tape recorders. So I imagine, too, that you probably had a lot of, though, like, a lot of that footage, you had to kind of combine together in different formats, like a VHS, you know, mini DV, am I right?

Matthew Burns 48:26
Yeah, I just about everything I shot was on those small, like high eight tapes, like those small Sony or whatever, you know, cassette tapes I got my hands on one of those cameras, I think, around age 15, and I mean, filled up just hours and hours and hours of that stuff. We just shot stuff all the time. Yeah,

Dave Bullis 48:46
And now, so as we come full circle, you know, the camera stuff now is so it's so much lighter and it's a better quality. I mean, hell, I was just playing about the DSLR the other day, and I'm like, my god, I remember those big VHS cameras, and I remember playing those back and like, wow, look at this quality of a picnic or whatever else. And now you just like, my god, how the hell did I lug that damn thing around?

Matthew Burns 49:09
I still remember first hearing when you were going to be able to record on a digital medium, and, you know, on these little compact flash cards or whatever. And I just couldn't fathom it, and I couldn't trust it either. It's just like, yeah, right, like that. It's gonna be like a hard drive, like, you bump it, and it's gonna erase everything. And I was terrified of that at first, but I can't really think of any mistakes with DSLRs, just like dumping everything on their own, they seem pretty reliable. So it's impressive, really impressive. How far the technology stuff?

Dave Bullis 49:44
Yeah, it's, you know, and you know, with all the different formats that you know, we've both worked with, and with all the different things that are coming out, you know, I'm gravitating more and more towards, you know, a I used to love physical media. Well, I still do. I shouldn't say I used to, but you know what I mean, but like now it's, it's so much, you know, stuff to sort of keep track of. And he has, you know, piles of DVDs here and a piles of books here. And I'm in the back of my mind. I'm thinking to myself, someday, am I just gonna get rid of all this and have nothing but an entire library on a Kindle and just go from there? You know what I mean? Because you eventually, you're like, I don't know, this physical stuff. It just kind of, sometimes you love having it because you can't get nobody can take it from you because it's not in the cloud. But sometimes you say to yourself, Man, it's just if I wanted to declutter this room, I'd have to get rid of a lot of stuff.

Matthew Burns 50:46
It's I'm going to be interested to see how that goes, because I just moved back from Japan, and DVD stores are still doing well there, like rental stores, and I love that, and I miss that experience. DVDs, blue rays, just walk around, you know, browse, look at look at covers. And to me, that's a lot better than, you know, hopping on iTunes and scrolling through some things. It's just it's not the same feeling and, and I don't know if it's, I don't think it's just me being nostalgic. I think it's just makes the experience more relaxing, like there's only so much time you want to spend staring at a glowing rectangle each day, you know? And so I don't know, I also I just pulled a bunch of books out of storage and sold them. And while they were like, tallying up the price, I was walking around a bookstore in the states and thinking, like, Man, this is, I miss this. Like, this is, this is a good feeling. And so I think there's always going to be a contingency of people who are going to hold on to the physical medium. But as it gets cheaper and cheaper to make distribute movies, you know, through digital mediums, that there is going to be a push and pull a tug of war going on for sure.

Dave Bullis 51:56
You know, you moved to Japan. I wanted to ask about that too, because, you know, when we reconnected, I saw you were living in Japan, and I'm thinking to myself, My God, I go this, you know, to sort of just pick up and move to Japan. It's just, it's something off the beaten path. I mean, I love Japan, but I hear, always hear two things from everybody about going to Japan. I hear these two things. They love it. But my God, is it expensive? Is that true? Is that true Matt?

Matthew Burns 52:27
It's very true. And especially any, any kind of travel in Japan, like, I will never complain about tolls in the US again, like when you're driving, you can, you can get on the highway and drive for like, three hours, something like that. And get off, and depending on where you are, like, going from, like Tokyo, south to Chiba, get off and pay 35 to $40 in toll, like, I've experienced this. Or you make a wrong turn in Tokyo and you just take a loop and like a spaghetti bowl. You know, exit, you have to pay five bucks just for going through that loop, and then you get back on then you have to pay it again, like it's, it's, it's just horrendous, but it's very expensive. But if you can, if you can, find a way to swing it very, very reliable transportation, like the trains and the busses, it's just remarkable, how on time they are. But every country, every place you're gonna live, is gonna have its ups and downs, but I had a wonderful time in Japan, in Tokyo.

Dave Bullis 53:32
You know what's funny? I have a friend of mine who just moved to Moldova, and Moldova is this weird? Well, I shouldn't say weird country. It's a it's a country, it's a smaller country in Eastern Europe. And he just moved there from Canada, and he absolutely loves it. And he goes, because he his money goes further there. He talks about all the stuff that they have. The internet's faster than where he was in Canada, and everything else. And but I always just think, go back to that where it's, you know, and I have a friend of mine who moved to Latvia, but then I always think about, you know, where friends who've actually like, like yourself, who've gone to Japan, it's the exact opposite to like, you know, yeah, we love the culture. We love, love the the the media and how crazy Japan is. But they're like, my god, they were like, it's so expensive here. And I had a friend of mine who went there, and he said, You must have to be a multi millionaire to live in Tokyo, because he said, everything is just so priced, so high. And he goes, I guess I don't know how people do it over there,

Matthew Burns 54:31
It's, I had a blast, you know, I had so many experiences in film over there, so many random jobs, you know, operating cameras. I got to operate the red like a full on, like Steadicam, you know, worked as a gaffer, directing tons of editing. I got to work behind or in front of the camera. I learned that if you if you're basically a Caucasian or even a Westerner, somebody not from Japan. And you have a visa, a work visa, and a flexible schedule. You're an actor. You're a model. It's that simple. I'm not even kidding, like I one day I was, I was looking through the modeling websites like the agencies, and I just like, you know, rubbing my eyes and looking again, and I sat back, and I read an article on how easy it is to get into it. And I just said, That's it. I'm an actor. And, you know, fast forward a few years, I've been in all sorts of movies, TV commercials, shows. I mean, like, big roles, small roles, everything. It's like, I still got over my fear of being on camera. First I'd be all nervous. But then I was just like, This is so easy. And honestly, the quality is not usually on par with what we would do in the US. So if you want to practice getting comfortable on camera, Japan is a fantastic place to do that. Wild. A lot of fun. But yeah, the thing is that I got fed up with those. The film industry pays horribly, and they do not treat talent well, at all. There are not unions. There are no unions. There's no protection for most talent, and so the low pay and the abuse you have to sustain is just like unfathomable. So I had a blast for a while, but as I speak to you right now, I'm driving to LA for Phoenix, because I'm like, this was fun, but I got to make some money doing this, you know? I got to get in a place where people have money and real things are happening,

Dave Bullis 56:29
And so that you move back to America now. And now, are you moving full time, back to LA?

Matthew Burns 56:37
That's the plan. Yeah, I have a place I can crash. I've got a buddy I'm going to live with for a few months, but there's a huge, huge convention I'm attending this weekend, which it's called Pitch fest, or they call it script fest, but the great American pitch fest. If I lose you, let me know. I'm driving through a little valley right here, but, yeah, but go ahead.

Dave Bullis 57:06
I'm sorry. I was gonna say, if I lose you, I'll just call you right back. But you know, it's funny. It's funny, Matt, I and I'm sorry to also add to interrupt you, I actually applied to pitch fest years ago because they were looking for a head of media. And I actually applied. And I was, I was, like, a finalist for the position, but I didn't get it. And it's just funny that you're actually going to that. It's just, I actually know the two people, but Bob and, and I think it's Sini or sun I, whatever name is, I actually know those two people who actually run that.

Matthew Burns 57:38
That's, that's, that's outstanding, man. That would have been a great gig. And you know what I was reading through the guest list, or list of companies and agencies that are going to be there, and I saw, let me see, yeah, Whitney Whitney Davis, she's got her own literary agency, but you interviewed her episode 132 but that, that was one of the, one of the best episodes I think I've listened to of your podcast. She, she gave all sorts of insight on what it takes to get representation as a writer and to work in LA but, yeah, she's, she's going to be there, so I'm going to try and bring some projects and pitch and see. I'm not sure if it's a good, great fit for what she does, but I just thought she was really encouraging, and so I'm excited.

Dave Bullis 58:21
You know, it's funny, Matt, everybody who listens to my podcast, and I've said this before, will always mention Whitney Davis is one of her favorite episode, one of their favorite episodes. They'll always say, Oh, I was listening to your podcast, and so I listened to the one with whatever. Oh, but the one with Whitney Davis was awesome. And I said, I told her, I said, Everyone compliment you Whitney. I said, You got to come back on and talk about networking. But yeah, yeah. Honestly, she, she is a phenomenal man. And honestly, Matt, if you could get a chance to even grab coffee with her, I would really, really encourage it.

Matthew Burns 58:58
I'm gonna, I'm gonna totally named out Dave Bullis, when I meet her, and I was excited, because on the episode, it sounded like she mostly represents novelists, but reading up on what she's doing right now, she's representing quite a few screenwriters. And she's, she's getting people working TV and film, and so, yeah, I'm excited to meet her.

Dave Bullis 59:19
Yeah, yeah, she's, actually doing a lot of more screenwriting stuff now. And she went to Dallas and the whole screenwriting seminar there. Then she's going, now she's, you know, obviously living, living in LA. Now, wait, I'm sorry, she goes back and forth between LA and Texas. That that's what she does. Yeah? Because I think she, she said to me, she likes LA, but her husband, and then when we want to stay close to Texas, but, but, yeah, if you get a chance to even have coffee with have coffee with her, honestly, huge, huge recommendation to do so, so, you know. And we're talking about pitch fest, you know. So are you focusing a lot, a lot to Matt on writing scripts now?

Matthew Burns 59:56
Yeah, I have three, three scripts that I'm bringing to pitch. Fest that very quite a bit. And so I was just given the executive director, and it's really helpful. It tells exactly what these companies are looking for, how to pitch to them, how not to pitch to them, what the budget is, what genre they want, and so, yeah, writing and directing is still my primary goal, but, you know, I have a couple demo reels in order. This is they're mostly looking for writers at pitch fest, but these are production companies looking for scripts for, you know, material they want to produce, whether it's for a TV pilot or TV series or a film. And so they, most of these companies, employ directors as well. So I'm just going to see what I can what I can do, what I can pull off here.

Dave Bullis 1:00:56
And also, one of the things you'll be talking about, too, Matt, is the trade. Right? So the trade, which just had its its premiere, I'm sorry, well, if you want to call it the premiere, I don't know what, how you would want to phrase that, Matt, but, but, you know, the trade is the movie that you've just shot recently, you know, and that's obviously something that you're going to be obviously using as a discussion point. So if you could, Matt, could you talk about, you know, to talk about the trade and what the film is for all the listeners out there.

Matthew Burns 1:01:27
Sure, I'll try and tell you in a nutshell. So I was in Tokyo for five and a half years, if you can believe it, working in the film industry. There were a couple feature length films that I tried to get off the ground with people there didn't happen for various reasons, but I just, I want to make features. It's what I want to do, and so it's good to always, I believe, just stop and say, What do I have right now? Or what story can I tell right now? And I did not intend on telling a story related to my wrestling career, but while I was in Japan, there was a younger guy who mimicked, who was mimicking my wrestling career. He's 10 years younger than me. He was a die hard fan. My wrestling name is Nick Mondo, or sick Nick Mondo, and he used to come to the shows with sign saying, little Mondo. And he dressed like me, just this skinny little kid. Five years after I quit, he got into wrestling. I didn't know he was going to do this. I knew he was training, but he debuted as little Mondo, but put on, you know, 50 pounds of muscle, put on some weight, and was basically reenacting my character. I was okay with that, until he started reenacting all of the violent stuff that I did, getting hurt severely, and in sort of an agreement with him, making a deal with him, I said, I'll make an appearance in one of your batches if you he was going to carry on a very, very dangerous stunt that had the concern, and we made a bargain. He decided not to go through with it. If I would show up in one of his matches. I did. This was in 2013 December. 2013 it ended up being a pretty emotional moment in the ring. It went over really well. He retired that character on the spot, and anyway, it shook loose all sorts of ideas. Meanwhile, I'm trying to figure out what kind of a film can I make right now. So I had the idea for a wacky Docu drama, half scripted, half documentary, basically detailing how and why I got into this violent wrestling business and why I left so abruptly, and so that's the trade. It premiered in London, screened in Tokyo, and just this past week, my sales reps did a special VIP screening in New York City for distributors and for press. So that is a film that I'm pushing for sale right now. Well, my reps have taken care of that, which is, which is a relief, but that's one thing I'm hoping I can use for some momentum. It's half scripted, like I said, but that's my intention, is to get into narrative film rather than documentary. So I'm really reaching for for narrative film right now.

Dave Bullis 1:04:22
So, So Matt, I wanted to ask, you know, what was that? What? By the way, I remember little Mondo coming to these shows too. I remember him being in the crowd, and, you know, him dressing as you and and his he would come with his dad. And then I saw, probably a few years ago, I did see that, that there was actually, he actually started wrestling and doing all that stuff. So what was the one? What stunt was it? He was going to reenact the viewers that you finally had to step in and say, No,

Matthew Burns 1:04:50
Well, these death match tournaments that I mentioned a year prior to my retirement, I was in a death match tournament. Months, I made it to the final round, and I finally lost in the finals by it was a 200 light tube, barbed wire and salt death match. So probably don't need to paint too much more of a picture for you. It was It was nasty. It was bloody. Needed stitches afterwards. But I lost the match by having one person hold my arms and the other one fire up a weed whacker and hit me in the stomach with it. So it's, it's unbelievably insane. I once, once, once you step away from that whole scene, it's like, What on earth was I thinking? But in that world that it kind of fits in with the with the esthetic, with what's going on. And so it became kind of infamous. It got a lot of circulation. And so Rory, that's his real name, Rory little Mondo was planning a stunt where they were going to destroy him in the ring, and then he was going to get hit in the stomach twice with the weed whacker. And I just told him, this really disturbs me. I was like, I knew you and you didn't even weigh 100 pounds. I just, I have a problem with you maiming yourself, like trying to honor me. I'm like, This is not what I want you to do, you know, like, so that that was, that was what he was planning on doing, that I finally made a bargain with it to not do it,

Dave Bullis 1:06:20
You know, again, Matt, you know, it's funny, I was actually at tournament death one where that happened. I actually have to find it, but I have a photo of you taking homeless Jimmy off the top of that rider truck, through that light tube covered table. No kidding, you were there. Yep, I was there. I remember you because you fought wife beater in the finals. And I remember that that was actually funny enough. That was actually, I think, my final CCW show, or close to it, I can't remember after, no, no, it wasn't my final one. My final one was one of the cages of death. That was my final, actually, that was one of my final wrestling shows ever. I've only been to, like two or three, after that one was when hot, when hot, when Hulk Hogan came to Philly, but that's a whole nother story. But yeah, I was actually there Matt and I was, I was actually right there when you put homeless Jimmy through that glass, the light tube covered table.

Matthew Burns 1:07:11
Oh, man, that's fun to know that.

Dave Bullis 1:07:14
Yeah. See, we've been running into each other here all these years, and now we finally, finally get to have this conversation? Yeah, I know, seriously, it's a small world, right? I have to find that that photo, though, and, but, yeah, but, you know, it's so as we talk about the trade, and it's it had its premiere in London, and, you know, its premiere and its premiere in Tokyo, and also, there was that press screening in New York a few days ago. What are some of the, of the of the plans for the trade. I mean, are you hoping to, sort of, you know, is it like you do you have, like, a personal goal for it, like to get it on Netflix, I would say getting in block. Get it in blockbuster. But there's not really too many blockbusters around anymore.

Matthew Burns 1:08:01
Yeah, I just, I hope to, I hope to get this thing, obviously, a really good distribution deal in North America. Wrestling fans in general are collectors, you know this, and so I want to get a really good DVD blu ray package going. I already have a bunch of bonus features that I can include. I hope for Mexico. I hope for the UK. Hope for Germany. Maybe Japan. Distribution in Japan is really tough, but I know there's some Southeast Asia potential, actually, maybe China. I don't know if this is possible, but, but my reps are going to try and set up some sort of a limited, maybe East Coast theatrical run, just like art house theaters, and maybe do a few Meet and Greet type screenings, but would be great, you know, I hope to turn this thing into a profitable venture. I've invested a lot into it, so I just wanted to be a really good step to another project that's That's my ultimate goal, and something that people can readily have available if they're interested. You know,

Dave Bullis 1:09:07
I think that meet and greet is a great idea, especially if you do that in like these really wrestling friendly towns like Philly, New York, Boston, all places like that, and especially the meet and greet. You know, it's kind of like what Kevin Smith did with red state, where he just basically took it on the road, and it became like the old, the old way that people, people used to show films, which was, they would take their film reels and they would go to town to town to town and say, you know, it's not tonight is your chance to see the Wizard of Oz or gone with the wind or whatever. And then, you know, they'd go on to the next town the next day. And I think that for indie filmmakers is really important, because you have to, you know, stand out from the pack. And I know as, sort of, sort of, if I could talk as these big, you know, film studios, they're always wondering how they can, sort of, you know, up charge the ticket, and still keep sales at a particular level.

And they always try to package things like, you'll get a digital download, you'll maybe get a shirt, you might get something else. And I think the biggest thing was, remember World War Z when that came out, Brad Pitt was making all those surprise appearances everywhere, and all of a sudden, ticket sales started going up for the thing, because everyone's like, Oh my God, is Brad Pitt gonna show up here and talk to us? Could you know what I mean? So I really think being able to meet the filmmaker is critical. And by the way, Matt, I'm sure, as you know this, you'll know who's a filmmaker in the crowd, because after they see the movie, the number one question they're going to ask you is, would you shoot that on?

Matthew Burns 1:10:50
Yeah, that's a good point that the two screenings that we that I attended so far, so much fun in the Q and A's that we did afterwards. So I'm completely on board. I was actually working on setting up a co promotion with a wrestling company on the East Coast, like a screening the night before a big wrestling show. But my reps actually said, hold off on that, because if we give this opportunity to this distributors, we think that could be really appealing to them, especially if they already have the DVDs, blu rays printed and can sell them at these events. And so I said, All right, it's in your hands, but, but by the way, how's that going? I know you were going to try and chase down Kevin Smith for an interview. Any any possibility on that

Dave Bullis 1:11:34
It's kind of like stalled out. It was, I thought we were going somewhere with it, and it just kind of petered out. I really have to start stalking him again and just being like, come on the show, man. But, but all kidding aside, it did really peter out and when, when he when he has, maybe when he when he's going to promote red, not red moose Jaws, then I'll probably start talking to him again and see maybe if I can get him on the show?

Matthew Burns 1:12:01
Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people would be interested. I said Richard Kelly, too. I'd love to hear what he's up to the director of Donnie Darko, you know what, what he has to say. But yeah, yeah, you're doing great with your podcast man,

Dave Bullis 1:12:15
Oh, thank you. Man, I really appreciate that. Man, I try my best. Sometimes I stumble in stammerers. I want to say like five things at one time, but I but, but other than that, you know, I, I've got a pretty good guest list, you know, it's, it's just funny, because one of the things that I am pretty strong at is networking, just a skill that comes natural to me. So like doing this podcast, people are like, how the hell did you get this guy on here? And I go, I have no idea. Because when I had Cassie and OVAs on here, who did Dallas Buyers Club and a bunch of others, like, really cool movies. And like, you know, he's, he's an A level producer. And, like, how the hell did you get him to agree to do your podcast? And I go, I have no idea. I just, it was, it just kind of, you know, happened, and it's just, you know, one of those things and, and that's how it happened. You know, you just, I've just been very good at networking, and that's how I sort of been able to go these awesome people like yourself now in the podcast.

Matthew Burns 1:13:08
Thank you. And and I was gonna say it I Episode 148 and 149 I highly recommend 148 was Michael G Kehoe. How do you say his name? That's it. Yeah. From he directed Alice the hatred but and then 149 Dan Mirvish, the director of the Slamdance festival. If you want to hear a lot of amazing stories and learn a lot about people who are getting things done, getting films done, and moving things to the industry like that, I love those two episodes, both fantastic,

Dave Bullis 1:13:43
Yeah, and Dan Mirvish. Everyone was always asking when his when his episode came out. People were like, wait a minute, did you have an ax murderer or something on your podcast? I said, No, no, no, he worked with an ax murderer. Guys, come on. Did it right? But

Matthew Burns 1:13:58
That was, that was a fascinating story, even involving Johnny Depp at one point. So, yeah, I love that story. So bizarre.

Dave Bullis 1:14:06
Yeah, seriously, how Johnny Depp got ended up being connected to this ax murderer? From you, from from this college. It's like, what the hell it's such a weird, weird story, but it's all true. And because I looked up the story after the podcast, and I was like, Holy crap. I was like, this is, this is a 100% real, real, real, true story, you know. And it's just, it's unbelievable. And, but again, I've been very fortunate to have a lot of really cool people on the podcast, again, like yourself, Matt. And you know, as we were talking about everything you know, from pro wrestling to filmmaking to to your latest film the trade, and you're going to pitch fest, which I wish you the best of luck. So, I mean, we've been talking for roughly about an hour, maybe hour and 10 minutes. So you know, just in closing, Matt, is there anything that we get a chance to talk about that maybe you want to talk about right now, or just any sort of parting thoughts that you'd like to say to put a period into this whole conversation?

Matthew Burns 1:14:59
Well, I just, I think there's a tremendous film education coming through here on your podcast. So I want to, I want to thank you for that. You know, I'm like you and a lot of people on your podcast. I mean, you get some really high profile people, but we're all just trying to figure out this, this film industry thing, and crack the code, but, but, you know, yeah, I'm in a season of transition right now, so I don't know exactly what's next, but I'm gonna try my hand at LA, you know, see how it goes. But, but, you know, thank you for helping me promote the trade and what I'm doing. And, you know, yeah, I just, I look forward to keeping in touch with you, and I definitely will,

Dave Bullis 1:15:42
Yeah, and please do, Matt. And you know, I'm gonna make sure I, by the way, I was gonna ask about your social media, and I know you're not on like Twitter or anything like that. I wanted to, just to say really quickly to Matt, do you know that there's a person out there that actually has a Twitter account that's pretending to be you, and they're tweeting at other wrestlers that are obviously fake accounts. So like Nick Mondo. Like they have a Nick Mondo account that's called, you know, Unscarred Mondo, and he's tweeting at some guy who's supposed to be CM Punk, and they're going back and forth with each other, but it's just like, I don't know why they would, don't be doing this, but it just, I got a laugh out of that, because I actually was going to tweet at you one time, and I saw, I saw that account like, Wait, that's not that's not mad. What the hell is that?

Matthew Burns 1:16:27
I think I need to get a Twitter account going. This has happened before. I've had to shut people down. I've gotten a notification last year, two people I had to shut down on Twitter. It's happened on Facebook right now, since I moved back to the States, I got a new iPhone. I was traveling, and I got locked out of my Facebook account, and I currently am and that's where I promote everything. But I think I need to get on either Twitter or Instagram or both. But like, I'm not letting go of this account thing yet. Like, I'm gonna see what needs to happen to get it back. But, like, I've tried everything right now, but, but that's the bizarre world of social media. This has happened to me at least, at least 10 times over the years, where I have to go and shut down somebody who's pretending to be me, which which, I don't understand why somebody would want to do that. But, yeah, thanks for letting me know. I'm gonna have to look at Twitter again. It sounds like,

Dave Bullis 1:17:22
I'm sorry, Matthew, bearer bad news like that. I'm sorry I saw that. I was like, oh, Mondo. I was like, Wait, that's not him because, but, but, no, no, but, but honestly, Matt, if you ever, if you ever do get a Twitter or Instagram, I'm on both, and I'd be glad to give you some shout outs and stuff like that. And I'll even, you know, I'll encourage everyone to follow you, and because I honestly you're, you're such an interesting guy, and I'm so glad we could actually, like, finally do this interview and finally meet up and and share all these stories about pro wrestling and everything else. And it's just been a very fun trip down memory lane. And if I could Max, I know you have to run. I know you're, I know you got like, 10,000 things going on. I remember one time we went to, I a group of friends, and I went to CZW. And this is, again, a champ soccer Arena in Seoul, New Jersey. And this, this very like prissy, very, very like, you know, uppity girl went with us, who was a girlfriend of this guy, and she, she goes, she sits down, and she goes, I feel like I'm going to be stabbed any moment in this I said, yeah, there's a good chance everyone around, like everyone around laughed, because they could just see this girl was so out of her element. And it was just, it's just a funny, a funny little anecdote, but it's been so fun talking to you, Matt, you know, going down memory lane. Is there any links that you'd like to send anybody to? Like, do you have an official website you like to send everyone to?

Matthew Burns 1:18:54
I'll just, I'll give you the links to the two trailers for my film. The other one, we just, we just launched, and so that that's what I'd like to spread the word on right now. And I like, I say, I think very shortly I'm just gonna have to hop on Twitter and Instagram and and hopefully get this Facebook thing resolved. But, but, yeah, thank you so much. And I was just gonna say, like most people, I either separate or need to separate if I'm doing these interviews into either the wrestling half or the film happen. So that's pretty unique, getting to talk to you and mix both. And I think that's that's really cool, just the common trajectory, if you will, you know that we've been on. So, yeah, let's, let's do it again, man,

Dave Bullis 1:19:32
Yeah. And there is a lot of storytelling involved in professional wrestling. And I know, I mean, I haven't watched wrestling in years, but, but I know there is a storytelling aspect that, you know, I feel is lost in current day wrestling, but that's a whole nother story. Matt, you know, I would love to have you back on. Anytime you have to come back on. You want to talk about, even your experience at pitch fest, or anything you like to talk about, you know, always feel free. Everyone listening. It's davebullis.com Twitter. It's at dave_bullis. I. And I want to say thank you everybody for listening, and thank you Matt for coming on my friend.

Matthew Burns 1:20:07
Dave, thank you. I will be listening in the future. I'm a fan.

Dave Bullis 1:20:12
Hey I appreciate it. My friend and our pairs are gonna cross again, because they always seem to right,

Matthew Burns 1:20:19
Hopefully not in the wrestling ring, though, right? It's somebody's backyard. You know.

Dave Bullis 1:20:26
Exactly. It can't be like a WrestleMania in a cage like Bundy and Hogan. It's got to be, it's got to be in the backyard, in the middle of nowhere, in Birdsboro, you versus me on like a film camera on a pole match.

Matthew Burns 1:20:40
I'm gonna be Ping Pong Mondo expert calls me Ping Pong is out the street.

Dave Bullis 1:20:52
It's Bundy is a hell of a hell of a hell of a guy. It just the funny stories about him, man, I love it. Do. It. Big palm Mondo. So Matt again, best of luck in pitch fest. Best of luck in LA dude. I'll talk to you very soon.

Matthew Burns 1:21:08
Peace buddy, thanks again. I'll talk to you soon.