iPhone Filmmaking & Cinematography with Jason Van Genderen
Today on the show I have iPhone filmmaking master and TEDTalk Speaker Jason Van Genderen. I’ve wanted to have Jason on the podcast for a long time. He is a true inspiration to anyone who wants to pick up a camera and tell a story. He has made an industry out of professional shooting with iPhones for corporate clients, on commercials, music videos, and short films. Here’s some more info on our guest.
No script, storyboard or crew. No exposure to focus controls. A resolution of 640 x 480 pixels and a total memory of just 160MB. That was Jason’s unexpected entry into the global filmmaking stage back in 2008.
‘Mankind is No Island’ went on to win numerous prestigious accolades at film festivals around the globe and was one of the very first exemplar films to champion a whole new emerging medium of iPhone filmmaking.
With screenings and awards from Tropfest NY, Aspen Shortsfest, Palm Springs, San Francisco Short Film Festival, Edinburgh International Film Festival right through to Sundance London, Jason’s made mobile stories that matter, becoming an unexpected voice for marginalized or emerging storytellers. It’s the very reason he proudly labels himself a Filmbreaker.
An equally passionate educator, Jason’s talks have inspired audiences from TEDx Newy to the Aspen Ideas Festival; from countless televisions, how appearances to keynote addresses at film schools and festivals. His masterclass workshops continue to inspire both beginners and seasoned professionals alike. Jason Van Genderen has also consulted and collaborated with some of the world’s largest imaging brands, from Sony and Nokia to Nikon and currently Apple Australia. This year he also commenced an on-air role presenting guest segments on Channel 7’s ‘Get Arty’ children show, and has recently consulted to 7 West Media Group on broadcast applications for smartphone technology.
When your introduction to puberty is selling pet rocks and wearing a back brace, you’d have to hope that the ability to think creatively comes naturally. For Jason, his life of creative problem solving was seeded by 20 years hard labor in the advertising & design industry… before turning his hand to short films. His reputation for quick thinking under challenging circumstances saw him carve an early niche, being a four-time winner in the 24-hour in-camera film festival The Shoot Out.
Always a custodian of content over craft, in 2008 he experimented with filming on his mobile phone, making a short with no script, storyboard, actors, narration or budget. ‘Mankind is no Island’ went on to win Tropfest NY and numerous other accolades globally, by breaking every rule in the book. His unorthodox approach to filtering story with low-tech simplicity has seen him in demand internationally as a presenter on pocket filmmaking.
There are NO MORE EXCUSES ANYMORE. You can tell your story with what’s in your pocket.
Enjoy my conversation with Jason Van Genderen!
LINKS AND RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE
- Jason Van Genderen – Website
- Jason Van Genderen – IMDB
- Jason Van Genderen – YouTube
- IFH 111: Sean Baker: ‘Tangerine’ How to Shoot a Sundance Hit on Your iPhone
- IFHTV Video Podcast: iPhone Filmmaking with Jason Van Genderen
- BlackBox – Make Passive Income From Your Footage
- How to Shoot and Direct an Improvised Feature Film in 24 hours
- Filmmaker in a Box – Learn How to Make an Indie Film
- Martin Scorsese Film Directing Masterclass
- Ron Howard Film Directing Masterclass
- Judd Apatow Comedy Writing/Directing Masterclass
- Aaron Sorkin Screenwriting Master Class
- FreeFilmBook.com (Download Your FREE Filmmaking Audio Book)
- Indie Film Hustle TV (Netflix for Filmmakers and Screenwriters)
- Six Secrets to get into Film Festivals for FREE!
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Welcome to the indie film hustle podcast episode of a. In Hollywood breakfast means maybe we’ll do business lunch means. Yes and dinner means we’re in bed Richard roll our. broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It’s the indie film hustle podcast where we show you how to survive and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film business.
And here’s your host Alex Ferrari welcome and become Hustlers to another episode of the indie film has a podcast. I am your humble host Alex Ferrari Today’s Show is sponsored by. Box black box is a new platform and community. That is all about Financial Freedom for filmmakers like you if you join Black Box, you will be transformed from being a worker to being a maker of your own content and you’ll be making steady passive income from the global.
Black Box currently allows you to upload your stock footage once get it too many Global agencies and then allows you to share that passive income stream with your collaborators. Whether you want to submit old footage that’s been sitting around in your hard drives or create brand new content black box is for you.
It’s really quite revolutionary with black box filmmakers can concentrate on making great content while Black Box takes care of all the business BS just visit w-w-w dot black box dot Global to. Out more and Today’s Show is also sponsored by indie film hustle TV. The world’s first streaming service dedicated to filmmakers screenwriters and content creators.
If you want access to filmmaking documentaries feature films about filmmaking interviews with some of the top screen writers and filmmakers in Hollywood as well as educational online courses all in one place. I FH TV is for you just head over to indie film hustle dot TV. Now I have filmmakers that come up to me all the time and say Alex.
I can’t afford a camera. I can’t I can’t shoot what I want to shoot because you know, these are cameras are so expensive and all you know II can’t afford an Alexa. I need a red or I can’t even afford a black magic. I just doesn’t I can’t do it and every time I always look at them I said you have the power to make your own film probably in your pocket with your smartphone, you know, so many of us out there have either an iPhone or a.
Samsung or an Android or something that is more than capable of shooting an amazing film and I’ll Sean Baker with Tangerine really broke the mold on what can be done with the iPhone and he was shooting with an iPhone. I. 5S back in the day and nowadays would like the new iPhones and even like the following phone I have the 6s is more than capable of shooting an amazing short or even an amazing feature depending on what kind of story you’re trying to tell if you guys have not seen Tangerine Sean Baker’s Tangerine, please search out for it.
I’ll put a link to it in the description as well as our interview about how he did it. In the show notes, but today’s guest is kind of a revolutionary filmmaker man. His name is Jason Van Gendron. And Jason is an iPhone filmmaking fanatic. He actually threw away and gave away or sold all of his big high end gear and he is a strictly.
An iPhone filmmaker all his Productions all of his videos. He shoots strictly on iPhones and has built an insane business around it. And I’m not just talking about he’s doing his own little private shorts. He does. You know client-based work shooting iPhones and people always freak out about like, how are you just showing up with an iPhone?
I’m like just trust us. We know what we’re doing. He actually teaches all around Australia in the u.s. In Europe about. Filmmaking with iPhones and I want to have them on the show because I wanted to prove again to you guys that you don’t need all this big heavy equipment. You don’t need a red. You don’t need an Alexa.
You don’t even need a big black magic camera. You just need what’s in your pocket. If you can afford the bigger cameras great, but you don’t need it. Just so you know, you can’t tell compelling stories without it and his first short film he shot on iPhone has been played in. Hundreds of film festivals around the world and is one tens of thousands of dollars in film festival prizes and stuff.
So he he really is an inspiration to filmmakers around the world and I so wanted I really searched them out and I wanted him on the show and I’m so blessed and humbled that he’s on the show and he’s gonna be dropping. I’m talking about some serious knowledge bombs on how do you make films with an iPhone?
We talked about the gear of what you do to put around the iPhone to make it work even more like a cinematic a tool what apps he uses to shoot 24p and all that good stuff audio everything we go into a deep and he has a great course on iPhone filmmaking that will hopefully be coming to IFH TV. Very very soon.
I’m working on it guys, but it it is a great course as well. He’s taught. He’s had TED talks about filmmaking with iPhones and other things in the business. He’s just an inspiration in general. Now, if you guys want to see this video live and actually watch this interview, which was a great one.
It’s available on the indie film hustle video podcast on IFH TV. Just go to indie film hustle Dot t–. The check it out and I’ll put a link to that in the show notes as well without any further Ado, please enjoy my conversation with Jason Van Gendron. I’d like to welcome to the show Jason Van gender and man.
Thank you so much for being on the show brother Alex. It’s amazing to finally meet you rather than just listening to through the podcast channels finally get to see you and hear your voice 101. It’s fantastic. It’s awesome, man. And you are and we are having this in this is like a in. National call so you are in Australia.
What time is it over there right now and I well it’s almost coming up to half past 10:00 in the morning for me here. Oh nice sauce Sunny morning. So you are in the future so you can tell me what happened. I can tell you everything that happens when we are at least a good half day ahead of you.
Exactly. Well. Thanks for the only time Australia is considered to be ahead of anywhere in the world fair enough fair enough. So thank you again for jumping on man. And you know, the reason I wanted to put you on is because you have a very unique set of skills that we have not had a guest on the show before which is iPhone filmmaking or pocket filmmaking as you put it so we’re going to get deep into that but.
How did you get in to this crazy business? We like to call the film industry? Well, my my checkered background really start in the world of advertising. So I was working as an art director in the advertising industry for about 13 years and got really really tired of just making. 32nd and 45 seconds stories.
I feel you. I feel you. Yeah, and just thought there must be another life beyond that. So basically I set up my own little business production business called Treehouse 17 years ago. And from there, we’ve gradually we started pretty much as a an advertising branding agency. We started working more in television and video and online.
And now it’s a hundred percent of our business. We do a lot of branded content. So we do a lot of commercial content. We do a lot of social content for a lot of Brands around the world and in the spare time, I still make my own films and make a lot of training resources and have really as you said before I’ve of not that I’ve fallen in love with.
Making things on smartphones but smartphones really found me as a way of making content and I was so surprised by what they could create as a tool that I started digging deeper and was just so pleasantly surprised by how deep we could take the technology and and the level of what we can actually create with this new minutes miniaturization of our cameras.
It is I mean, it is like the latest stuff. I mean, they’re really powerful cameras. I mean they have some insane. Is that literally is incredible? It’s sitting around your pocket. But a lot of people just don’t know what to do with it because you are not trained anywhere how to shoot with an iPhone’s not in a film school.
It’s not generally in the mainstream. Everyone looks down upon it because oh it’s just an iPhone but Shaun Baker kind of taught us a little bit about that with his amazing film Tangerine, by the way. What did you think of? When you saw it incredible, I watched it in Flight somewhere on the way to another festival.
And yeah, I thought wasn’t he shot that on iPhone 5. I think it was five as if I’m not mistake was either for us. I think I might have even been 4S but it might have been five. Yeah, because I own a 6 I own a 6S. I haven’t jumped yet. So I think it was one or two back. It was a while ago. Yeah. I think again it was a trailblazing project and it was very brave very adventurous.
And again with every great story. You’re watching a film that. Sure, you know it’s been shot on a smartphone. Maybe that’s how it how you come across tangerina initially to watch it. But I think you know a few minutes in you are totally swept into that story. And that’s the great charm of any film regardless of what we make it on is all about creating that incredible story.
And I think that’s that’s the voice. We need to rise to the top through this it’s not so much about what camera were filming on it’s about. Enabling ourselves to tell better stories in more ways know without question and I mean when I had shown on the show to talk about that a while ago, and he actually told me he’s like we played in Sundance and nobody knew that we shot on iPhone like after the first screening at the very end.
It said shot on an iPhone and everybody just mine blew up. It was like insane and I think that that was an absolute. Yeah stroke of Brilliance on Sean’s behalf because. A lot of people would have had the temptation of actually saying right up front. Oh, yeah Little Italy with it. Yeah. But yeah, it’s incredible the fact that he did that.
Like I said is extremely brave. But yeah, very credible film. It’s deserved all the success. It’s enjoyed and yeah, I think wonderful a great example of exactly what we’re talking about today, which is the fact that you know people anywhere with a fantastic idea can actually realize their story in some capacity.
If they just rethink the tools that they have accessible to them now already and certainly our smartphones are a fantastic way of upskilling filmic ability. Yeah without question. So so from what I read about you there is this like famous moment where you literally threw away your high-end video camera or film cat was a video camera guess and just said screw it.
I’m going iPhone all the way. What was that moment and what caused you to go down that road? You’re going down the rabbit hole now. I like see this is a crazy story. So this this takes us all the way back to 2008 what just like that was like, yeah, that’s years decades Millie. I know ten years ago or ten years ago.
That’s just crazy and to think that we yeah, this is I think two years in on having cameras on smartphones right commercial, so I find it only just released the year before. I’m not even sure if the 2008 version of the iPhone could record video but the camera that I had back then was a Nokia n95 a little sliding smartphone.
And I remember carrying this thing around looking at it and wondering where the one day would actually end up telling stories on our smartphones whether we could use them as actual camera tools. So I pretty much just walked around and with a couple of friends of mine Shane Emmett and John Roy his fantastic musical composer.
I just we started talking one day. I said, I’d love to make a film on a smartphone and see if we could actually ever get that into a film festival. And of course sitting here in Australia. Well aim was to try and get into an International Film Festival. So we had this concept of you know, those magnetic poetry gets.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah make it about something. Someone had something to it as they will pass the fridges. It’s a cool little idea. So we thought what if we could do that with a smartphone film what if we could actually walk around the city? And so we walked around Sydney with this little Nokia and we just filmed words on science.
So we were I guess harvesting words from shock fronts and Van Zant parked on the side of the street and the sidewalk from any way we could see signage and Words which start filming individual words. We had no concept of a script we had a storyboard we had no budget and we’re working with a smartphone that was it back in 2000.
We ended up collecting 1,200 words. I remember Bluetooth in them one of the time from the phone to my Mac if there was no way to look it up back there. That’s right. Anyway, I’ve seen you know a but still yeah, we were blessed by that science you like. Oh, wow, we can actually wirelessly transmit this thing from a phone to a device this it’s fairly.
It’s fairly insane that technology is fairly. It’s it it is so we ended up with 1,200 words and we decided to try and make a film out of that. And of course it was the complete 101 way of do not try and make a short film this way we had. No concept of really what we’re making film about we had like I said before no script storyboard.
So we realized as we were capturing these words on street signs that were very affected by homeless communities in the city and the fact that you know, you can walk down the street and you can walk past 10 20 homeless people a day and never look them in the eye. They kind of become part of the the furniture in the city the Landscaping right the landscape.
Yeah, and so we decided we would try and make a project that I guess a story that spoke to that and and questioned whether there was another way we could connect with one another on that level. And so we want to make a film about homeless Societies in cities and urban environments and Shane and I we sat there looking at this list of 1200 words for three nights in a row.
And trying to find something to consider something to stitch together into a narrative and nothing really it was just like it was like going to the dentist three times in a row. It was honestly we were sitting there just nothing was coming to us. And then we are I remember one night. We contacted John Roy this composer friend of ours and we said look, we got this idea of a film we want to cut these things together these words.
We’ve got some shots of these incredible homeless people. We met along the way we want to make a story about her most Societies in an urban environment and a sense of Disconnect with that. We want to like a piano score but it has to be like pinky ponk so we can cut the words on certain notes and I’m totally from a non-musical background.
So when I say pinky ponk that’s pretty Advanced technical musical speak from my side seam here head, but I know what I look like, so I sent him a cinema page with 12 images on it from the shoot and he went away and compose this incredible three and a half minute piece, which he almost threw away.
And he found me the next I said look, I’ve got one little piece of music and but I want to just fine-tune it now that I said no, no John send it through and he did and Shane and I listened to it and just knew instantly it was the right piece of music for this film. You can hear the breath in the piano strings was incredible and the film we made was called mankind is no Island.
We ended up being inspired by the music the word started leaping off the page. Once we heard the music we started finding all of those connections. We put this together. We entered it into a film festival in New York called tropfest New York and drop us at that stage was Australia’s biggest short film festival.
It attracted an annual live audience of between a 18 a hundred thousand people. I’m so how much 80 to a hundred thousand for a short film. For short film festival. This is right on a Sunday evening on Sunday Summer’s evening in Sydney. Is there nothing else to do in Sydney during that like, I don’t know if that’s mind-blowing Sundance doesn’t get like that maybe even Sunday is doesn’t even get that many people.
That’s crazy. It is like a rock concert for short filmmakers it it’s not something say that so they had a version in New York and we decided to enter it into that. Okay, and that’s where the whole story for us started we when I’m getting selected. Flew across for the festival we played the film we won.
We won People’s Choice as well. We got best film and it just started this whole conversation rolling in a much bigger space and we did lots of media interviews and lots of talks at other film festivals and universities and from colleges and. Yeah, it just started this love of actually not being confined so much by the limitations in the gear we didn’t have to tell stories and actually looking at what we did have available to us and how we could appropriate it and appropriate the concepts that we’re working on to be told with simpler tools simple simpler camera tools.
And that film cost you fifty Seven dollars if I read correctly 57 Australian dollars Laos is not even American dollar. So while that’s letting American so what do you think? We’ll see forty two or three American dollars to make and then you have when we first prize money. Today, it’s still actually going in festivals around the world.
There’s ten years on it’s still doing the rounds and it managed to win over thirty three thousand dollars in prize money. That’s insane. Oh my God, like that’s that is the that is the hustle that is the Indie from hustle without question. Look. I thought I was rough because I my first short film. I had it running in festivals private like four or five years.
And you’re still going 10 years in that’s in 10 years. It’s not competing anymore, but it’s still a thing invitations all the time to screen and it’s amazing and I just love those little projects you work on those little experimental projects that end up surprising you as the Creator as well as well as the audience and I think.
You know, it’s the for us is the gift that keeps on giving it’s the the film story that just keeps on traveling around the world finding you audiences and I watch it every now and then it’s still teaches me a little bit about what I’m doing. It’s still it’s still has little Little Gems to give you know, it’s funny.
I was because a lot of the people I worked a lot of my collaborators are worked on with that short film. They kept every time they would see that short film. My favorite film come back up there like isn’t that horse dead? Like didn’t you kill that like the you’ve ridden that horse as. Anything since I’m like I’m like no, I just I just, you know, inject them with some adrenaline pick the horse back up and just keep riding of until he keeps going so hey if it keeps going why not right?
I mean if people sadly it’s all good. Yeah. And what was you did you distribute that film? Did you actually put it somewhere to be some watched or sold or is it strictly just off off? Literally just just offline on festivals. It’s it is online at the moment on the the tropfest YouTube channel.
Okay, so it’s had a life there. It’s had over a million views on there. Yeah, it’s crazy. I mean. Short film in Australia is a really strong healthy medium for creatives coming out of colleges and film schools. It’s something we really actively Embrace and I feel really fortunate that even a little old Australia.
We can actually say we’ve got a film festival that draws a live audience of eighty to a hundred thousand years just insane and when filmmakers come from overseas, they’ve never experienced anything like that. They walk into this field and they see. This sea of people and they think they’re at some crazy concert.
It’s just an incredible experience. I mean, you’re almost inspiring me to make a short film. I mean, I seriously I got to send something over there because I’m Jay. I just want to experience that that sounds amazing for filming look. Look, there’s very few venues very few things out there. Can you know Sundance Toronto?
They don’t bring in. Eyeballs, you know that since I know that’s like YouTube numbers you get a hundred thousand. Yeah, that’s that’s it. Yeah, so if any filmmakers want to make a trip to Australia try and try and make it around February when tropfest screens and Australian come and experience the Festival of this as a filmmaker.
It’s just this energy of even just being in the end the audience even if you don’t have a film in the festival just being in that crowd and seeing eighty to a hundred thousand people react and respond at once. That’s to something that’s seen a screen is just mind-blowing. It gives me chills. Just thinking about it because it’s nothing that doesn’t know normal filmmakers.
Don’t get that like, you know, even the biggest Blockbusters from Hollywood doesn’t get that all in one but you don’t get an 80 to a hundred thousand people watching Avengers like it doesn’t happen. So it’s that must be amazing. So let me ask you a few tips for making your iPhone more cinematic.
Because that is because if you mean iPhone just like any other tool you could use it for their you use it really well. Yeah, yeah, so this probably a couple of key things one would be you need to obviously understand the strengths and limitations of your iPhone as a camera tool. It’s got a tiny lenses got a tiny Imaging chip the obviously the latest versions of the iPhone of stepped it up in quality again, and they got incredible, you know dynamic range now, so the things that I would say from the.
Go you really need to focus on in accessorizing your phone with to make it a real cinematic capture tool would be first of all, there’s an app called filmic Pro. Yeah, which is the same app that Shaun Baker filmed on as well some Tangerine onto it gives you complete manual control. All the camera inputs on your iPhone.
So if you can imagine the kind of controls you have on a DSLR camera you can have those on your iPhone with filmic Pro. So it’s invaluable. It’s the number one selling manual camera app around the world, I believe and it allows you to then work with a whole host of other accessories, which you’re going to obviously then put onto your phone to expand what it can see optically what it can hear.
So yeah filmic Pro, that’ll be the first thing. I tell people to do get rush out find that out put it on your phone and play with it and it’s pretty cheap jewelry. That’s incredible. Like I can Market but it isn’t brand 15 bucks. Probably. Yeah, probably I think it’s around 20 something here, Australia, but yeah.
Yeah, it’s look for isn’t a funny these days with apps. We talked about, you know paying anything for a nap and it whenever I go to a film college and so you need to buy this app and it’s $20 and they got like wow, that’s crazy. I’m never paying $20 for a nap. But you know, you’re expanding the functionality of the device.
Everybody wants everything for free. It’s insane. Tell me about it, brother. I know yeah. I completely understand what you’re saying. Only fairly so Philly crowd is the Bedrock that’s that’s the thing I would start with and of course it’s available in an Android version as well. So if you’re not on iPhone, if you got something else you can you can run for micro that’s amazing.
The other thing that that is a real game changer with iPhone record iphoneography is trademark is the ability to add accessory lenses now, so a lot of people always have heard of you. Ends Clips. I call O clip or moment lenses and things like that which have their own sort of fastening system onto your phone be scrip make an incredible cage system for your iPhone or any smartphone and have a device called a dof to which is a depth of field converter and except essentially.
It’s a it’s a barrel which attaches to their beasts group camera cage, which you put your phone in and it allows you to then accessorize your iPhone with any number of different. DSLR lenses and cine lenses. It’s is it worth it? Because that’s a lot of glass going through like water glass. So is it going to degrade the image a bunch or is it worth it?
It’s definitely worth it. If you want to work with with nice shallow depth of field. It’s really at the moment. The only real way we can do it until computational Imaging sort of steps it up another couple of notches and we can get the effect of what we see in portrait still mode now on our phones, right?
But you know, when we get that in video mode then that kind of is another conversation again, but in the meantime, if you do love that beautiful cinematic, look of layering the focus in Your Vision, you need something like a depth of field converter to a. Attach accessory lenses to your smart phone and look at this great.
It does cut back the light input a little bit because essentially what you’re telling the lens to do is to focus on a another focusing screen inside the depth of field converter and that sounds very technical but in the end of the day, it allows your iPhone to be able to see through any lens pretty much you can put in front of it and.
We’ve seen things captured. We’ve certainly captured things ourselves here commercially through lenses that people never ever guessed have been attached to a phone. They just wouldn’t think it’s been filmed on a smartphone. I mean, I think you and I are similar vintages as far as our age is concerned.
So you might remember this camera you remember the DV x 100 a. Panasonic yes, it’s really wonderful. Wonderful. Wasn’t that with the most beautiful camera ever? It was the first 24 feet the first 50 24p camera and if ye had a stock lens on it was a like it was a beautiful lock lens, but then you couldn’t get that depth.
So you had the 35 millimeter adapter and then you could put on those things, but then you would automatically lose like a stop or two. So you have to like it. I really pop so similar in that way. And I think I had like a glass didn’t have it like a glass of the mirrors heated. Yeah, this little something and I did a movie once that because I shot my film on the DV X and I had the adapt I had a screw in adapter not the 35 but a screw in yeah to get the wide.
Yeah, just get the sorry everybody. We’re geeking out old school. Now, we are getting a buzz, but I had a film that came in. It was a million dollar feature film that they shot on the DV X. I don’t know why but they did. This is back years years ago. A never attach the adapter properly and in the top corner, you would see the mirror like the little circle like flickering the whole movie all the footage.
I’m like. The first time DP but that’s a whole other story for whole other movie podcast, but that was that was a technology. We were dealing with but the reason I brought that up is because it did drop a lot of drop stop. So I’m assuming that this is similar that you’ve got a pump the more light in.
More light and that’s that is an absolute given with with all smartphones and any small lens camera. We need to yeah, smaller sensors need more light. So we need to work with more light when we’re shooting although, you know, having said that the new 10s the dynamic range in that is incredible. We took that out for a camera test a couple of weeks ago to film festival here in Australia just comparing the 10 to the 10 ass in nighttime tests and the amount of extra latitude and exposure was insane.
It’s. Like 30 to 40% more light coming in in low light situations. Now. Are you just incredible? Are you finding more filmmakers using this is a serious can’t like a serious package because I don’t see a lot mean other than Shaun Baker and there’s a handful of other, you know outliers and yourself obviously, but are there have you seen have you run across other filmmakers were doing serious work with.
We have we’ve actually started to see the explosion of smartphone film festivals really sounds taking yeah. Yeah. So earlier this year. I was at one in San Diego run by Susan Botello. Amazing. Smartphone Film Fest went to one in Zurich the moment Film Festival here in Australia. We got sf3 smartphone flick Fest.
Now. These are getting big supporter played at the Opera House in Sydney. I mean that’s how much to the attention of these vessels are getting people. Came up with the Opera House a landmark building here in Australia to watch films or creating a smartphone and and people are really starting to push the boundaries.
It’s not just people picking these up and you know a weekend hack someone just having a go at the first time at storytelling. We’re seeing real capable storytellers picking up their smartphones and really experimenting with the media and pushing the envelope as to what it can do as a camera to land.
Of course these days till we can we can accessorize with any microphone we can we can. Put wireless microphones on smartphones and capture dialogue and distance without being connected with leads. We can do all that sort of. Yeah. I was going to actually ask you how do you record professional sound because a lot of people will just pick up and go action and I’m like, no that’s yeah.
It’s not gonna work real. Well, well we work with with all the the full range of pro microphones with using any other kind of production we can still work with our smartphones as well or you’re obviously still have the choice of recording your audio separately and sinking it into. We generally do both we recording the camera as well as have backup audio to we can never have enough backups of audio.
So yeah accessory microphones are definitely out there free. Literally for less than a hundred dollars. You can buy are really incredible quality microphone to improve the quality of sounding a smartphone 300% and it’s a no-brainer. We see people actually starting to accessorize with a couple of hundred dollars worth of equipment and they see the leap in quality that they’re achieving.
They just get the bargain and they want to get more and more and more and the amount of times I’ve been on red carpets at film festivals. And I pull out a little smartphone rig and I’m just doing some of the Vox pops with someone or someone have meant that I want to ask a question to and I get one or two questions out.
And then instantly it’s finished all the producers and directors just start coming over the taking photos of the the phone rigged. I know what it is. How do you shoot with it? Where do I get it that like it still seems to be such a new conversation. But the more of that people are seeing it the more they getting exposed to it the more they’re understanding that there’s a place in their production kit for a smartphone.
Broadcast smartphone kit now. Let me ask you because there is a stigma around shooting with an iPhone. I mean, I just Shaun Baker definitely broke that down a bunch but everybody I mean I’ve talked to people professionals, you know snooty let’s call him snooty La guys who’s like that’s not a real Cinema phone.
I mean, that’s this or that yeah, and you know what you can’t compete and iPhones that can compete with Alexa. It’s just not going to period it’s never going to but. We’ll put the power of it of a being able to tell a story in the hands of someone who can’t maybe afford or get access to an Alexa.
Now, how do you because I know a lot of people listening right now their egos are are full right now people listening. I promise you I promise you someone out there is going this is ridiculous. I would never I’m a I’m a serious looking at already. I exactly like I’m a serious cinematic cinephile.
I’m a filmmaker I. I don’t shoot with an iPhone. That’s what’s in my pocket. I talk on that text on that. But what do you say to people like that? Because I mean I’m always about like whatever’s the best tool for, you know, I shot my last film on the pocket camera. So it’s just like what’s the proper tool?
It’s not perfect for everything. If you’re going to shoot a half million dollar movie iPhone might not be the right tool for it. But if you’re doing shorts or you’re doing a smaller micro-budget feature. And you can get a lot of bang for your buck. So what do you say to people like that who have that and I’m sure you’ve run into them.
I’m positive all the time all the time and then my favorite people to convert when I go to a festival and and and there I mean some of my peers I work within the industry here are still saying I’ve got rocks in my head, but we when I show them what’s possible with with the equipment, they quickly change their mind and I think as you said there is a definite stigma associated with.
Not having a large camera in your hands when you’re going to film a serious project, but we can turn that stigma around to I think that stigma is something that’s been a bit of a stain on the the industry as a whole for a long time. A lot of people feel that they there hasn’t been room for them.
There hasn’t been an inclusion there because. They don’t have access to that red epic or they don’t have the means available to them to Tool up with what’s considered to be a proper cinematic camera broadcast camera and they’ve not gone into storytelling or filmmaking because of that and I think that’s a great shame because I’ve met some incredible ride as I met some incredible producers and want to be cinematographers that have incredible ideas that just have put them on ice for three four five years and they never make.
Because I just don’t think those things are available to them. So the Great Joy here is actually saying we can turn that stigma around actually say that stigma is probably one of the strengths of smartphone cinematography and that you can actually be a Storyteller anywhere anytime with that thing that’s in your pocket and.
No One’s Gonna question you you can be a you can be a one-person production team. You can be operating very frugally you could be in the middle of Times Square filming this incredible shot, but nobody knows whether you’re filming a just for a social feed or whether you’re actually making something that’s going to screen at Sundance.
You’re never going to get a tap on the shoulder by the security guards or the local Administration asking you for your film permits. You’re never going to see her saying you can really fly under the radar with with a small camera like a smartphone. And even when it’s accessorized with some lenses and audio, we’ve never ever been kicked out of an area we’ve never been stopped from filming.
We’ve never been considered a serious crew and that’s part of what I love we can actually travel around we can get these incredible stories. We can capture this incredible footage and we’re never handed in our way and it’s such as an enabler for us in capturing story. I love it for me. That’s what I love doing.
I’m a documentary filmmaker. So for me. Yeah, they had a run around like a ninja and and capture and create story and not be burdened by the process of the people around me or the environment that I’m filming in is a wonderful joy and it’s something that’s been allowed me to actually make stories.
I couldn’t make any other way. Yeah, exactly. I think it was a lot like the one the dslr’s first came out people were making you know, like Michael polish is film for Lovers Only or things like that where they literally went to Paris and shot everywhere in. Strides are it because it was it was a people thought they were taking pictures.
The technology was so new and now similar things with iPhones like no one they’re not professionals. Obviously there they don’t know what they’re doing obviously. So let’s not bother them. You know, I even ran across that with with the pocket, you know, like with my pocket camera. People are like, what do you what are you doing?
Well, I’m shooting up a feature like. What like it? Yeah, it’s mind-blowing but you could sneak in with those kind of cameras in the iPhones the ultimate of that because everybody knows that camera. I mean, I you know that device so you never you’ll never get caught with it. And do you feel like it’s happened all through the chain.
Sorry. I was just inside it’s happened all through the chain of evolution in camera craft if we look back to the the very beginning with film cameras actual film cameras when the digital video camera Revolution came along. The film industry the film camera industry less traditional cinematographers did not write the digital camera setups.
They they never thought they were gonna have a long lasting place in the industry. And of course history tells us otherwise when you know, the first DSLR came out I think in two thousand and seven or eight little really actually film video. Yeah, I remember the 5D website that came out. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. You know when that first one came out with the record capacity for video the digital video camera markets it that’s not that’s not a proper camera. That’s how we can record video of course. Yeah, everybody denied that that was actually going to make any kind of inroads in our industry and now we’re sitting at that other chapter.
We’ve got the further miniaturization of our craft. We’ve got smartphones. We got action cameras Adventure cameras. We’ve got all sorts. We got wearable cameras coming next. Yeah. We got so many things that are new to the industry and. Was everyone shooting on a DSLR or digital video camera or anything else is is going nuts.
That’s definitely not serious camera history will prove that different and again, it’s not about saying yes, smartphone cameras are going to overtake the industry and every other kind of cameras going to Des Moines area. Of course, it’s not going to happen. No, but we do need to be aware of is the fact that.
You know for some of those Productions are some elements of your production, maybe a smartphone camera is actually going to be able to capture that scene or tell that story better than something else. You’re already having your kid. Yeah, and without question. No, no, absolutely without question and you could sneak into places with that small camera and get shots.
I do actually know of a few filmmaking DPS who are on network shows who will ya we’ll do a little and they’ll intercut and. It’s a quick little action thing or something like that. You know, it works. It really works either way that a couple of weeks ago. Alex II actually was a guest at one of my major television networks here in Australia.
There was 240 their Executives gathered around in one of the big studios that one of these get togethers every three months and. That have guest speakers from all sides of the film and television industry coming and address them once every every quarter. I came in to talk to them about what smartphones are going to do.
What what space is there for smartphones in the broadcast television world and and I would have thought that would have been really hostile audience going in and rest. They can do all those Executives and EP a network producers and series producers and they loved it. They were there were totally on board.
They loved opening their minds to what they could do. And of course. We’d be having gop’s working on TV series coming up to us afterwards saying yeah, we’ve been filming with the same cameras for 20 years and we’re not allowed to upgrade our cameras because of budget but. We could afford two or three of these kits to accessorize what we’re doing in our production.
And so they’re seeing the the opportunity for it and there’s definitely space for it in the industry. And when people start seeing some in the coming years, you will see some more feature films or see definitely see a lot more documentaries coming out that have been created on smartphones and I think that’ll help really changed be a catalyst of change for that conversation and you can buy a.
$120 anamorphic lens to put on the front of your phone and capture a beautiful animal for picture, right? Yeah. It’s em off. The cleanse me is the whole thing, you know. It’s and it fits in your pocket. It is inside. It’s crazy dude. I mean, I do feel like it’s I mean the iPhone Revolution or the smartphone Revolution is kind of similar to what happened with the dslrs, like people were like only like the first early adopters would go in and start playing and toys and making little films with it and all that kind of stuff.
And now I feel that that’s what’s happening with iPhone technology and with with smartphone technology. Completely completely. In fact, we’ve said we’re on a production agency here in Australia, and we earlier this year became the first production house in Australia to actually down scale our tools.
So we now actually shoot all of our television commercials and all of our brand content for big Brands exclusively on iPhones. We do it all on iPhones with accessory lenses accessory microphones everything we produce out of our production agency is all sourced on a phone now, how is it when you show up?
That you bust up in the iPhone like house that says I love it. I love no. No, but like other people like other people like what are the odds? What is it other people say, I have to believe that like you show up and there’s a crew in there. No, seriously, what are we shooting on? Yes? Yes. There are 20 people this five people and then all of a sudden it’s like yeah, but you guys aren’t seriously suggesting the social stuff.
Right? No, no actually doing the broadcast stuff today and look it’s amazing because it opens so many conversations when were filming Talent. They love it because it’s a completely different way of working and they find they’re more in the moment rather than the process of the filmmaking process so that it’s a bit of Liberator for talent as well.
And definitely, you know when we’re doing a documentary interviews, there’s nothing like putting an unassuming camera set up in front of the documentary subject and getting them to open up we have been able to get so many more in incredibly deep conversations going through using smartphones as camera capture tools as opposed to traditional camera setups for people that aren’t used to being in front of the camera.
It is an incredible enabler. And absolutely without a doubt we’ve made stories that wouldn’t have ever made it to air if it wasn’t for the iPhone as a capture capture tool. Now you said you touched on something. I would love to add to kind of dig deeper a little deeper into a. I mean obviously the documentary World it you’re right because if you know obviously documentaries you got want people to open up and when they see this Alexa a red drink which tend to be huge sometimes yeah, it could be over into especially intimidating for people who are not versed in our world.
But when you you know, you’re like, okay, we’re just going to shoot this on just open up. It’s fine. It’s yeah that I have to believe is a lot better on a documentary standpoint, but also just as actors, you know, there’s a freedom in a. Speed that you can move with these rigs, you know, even with my experience with shooting with with the the small camera.
I was able to move so quickly and the actors were just like on like there’s no going back to the trailer for an hour while we reset no, no, we’re going and and there’s an energy to it. So what do ya I love to talk to you about that. Yeah, totally we find exactly the same it’s you know, it’s so much faster to do scene transitions to lighting setups to simpler.
Everything is a lot more simpler. And so we find we have more ability to block through a scene. We have more ability to work through the the dialogue the transactions. We just we see a lot more scope a lot more experimentation with what we’re capturing is opposed to being extremely didactic about what we wanted to.
And we call it Lean Forward filmmaking. We think it’s really this this sense of. Stepping on set and we actually have the camera in hand ready to go and we let the camera almost show and guide for us. What could be a good flow for the camera movement. What could be a good coverage in the same? It’s quite different to actually seeing there.
And first of all overleap reproducing how we’re going to actually capture that seen how we’re going to lands it. How going to light it how all that sort of thing. We find there’s just this there’s almost like an organic nature to the production, which is really nice and particularly. I think for people that are not really versed with working with larger Crews that are relatively new to working with other people.
I think anything you can do to help keep your crew small to keep your equipment type overhead be added if you more flexibility in your shoot day and then your call sheet. I think all that stuff’s all the positive. So it’s a great way to actually really give yourself many more options and what you probably would do with it with a traditional camera setup and at the end of the day and I think this is I think.
Both agree on this. It doesn’t really matter. What the hell you shoot on is what’s the story and that’s what people get so kind so, I mean I did like the full podcast about stop obsessing about gear. No one gives a crap. Like they really don’t only guys like you and me will go. So what you shoot on like really but it’s the people watching a film on Netflix doesn’t care if they shot on Alec’s on red on black magic on an iPhone.
It doesn’t matter. But people I think and you might you know, you might love to hear what you think about it, but I think a lot of times filmmakers use that as an excuse not to actually be filmmakers because they hide. I totally agree and I think you and I have both gone to the exact same networking opportunities at festivals where you step into a room of fellow creatives filmmakers and you meet one another and it’s nobody talks about the project.
They’re working on they say I’ve just been shooting something on x y z f right now, they’re the straightaway there into the gear that straight away and it’s all about the box and I’m sure if you go to you know, A great restaurant and go and have a chat to some chefs. They’re not talking about what brand knife.
They’ve been chopping vegetables and fish with that night, they’re talking about something entirely different. You know, when we when we think about incredible performers on stage the first thing they don’t credit their success with is the brand of the microphone that the singing into all the PA system.
Yeah, but somehow in the filmmaking industry, we’re still very caught up in the fact that it’s all about boxes and lenses its marketing. It’s the marketing that the other it’s the marketing of the companies though the company. Is want you to continue to buy new lenses by new cameras, but I knew everything so and it gets and you can you hear it from the beginning of your career.
So you get caught up in it. I’ve kind of let go of that now. I’m like, what’s the right tool for the job? Yeah, yeah, it’s early and it’s become almost like a skin. I feel it’s like something you said before like we wrap it over a cells like a mask. And that’s we talking about the equipment and the gear seems to be an easier thing to do than actually opening up about what we’re trying to say we but we’re capturing and and I think as soon as we can start changing those conversations, it’s actually Alex the same reason why I never go and introduce myself as a filmmaker.
As of early this year, I now call myself a film breaker because I feel the way I make films is at odds with what the industry perception of normally is. And so I think I tend to break a lot of rules and I make my films rather than making them. So when I say I’m a filmmaker and I step in that same environment.
Yeah. What’s the first question you think someone asked you when you say you’re a filmmaker? What’s the next thing that comes out of them out already shooting? What films have you made that I know? Well, there’s that chance. Yeah, it’s not a lot. Yeah, that’s probably not a lot that I’ve made that most people would have seen.
So yeah, you know, you really see myself as a phone breaker that introduces a conversation rather than stopping it with a period in the conversation. It’s just it’s a way of enabling people to understand that there’s more than one way to make a film come alive. I always tell people that you know, if you give a canvas and paint and brush, too.
Basquiat Warhol and Polly you’re going to get paint on a canvas. Yeah how you get it is up to them and it really doesn’t matter the style. You make it like I know I’ve worked with filmmakers. Who and I’ve also talked to filmmakers who are completely improv film. Like I’ve done my last to filter fairly, you know structures outlines and film and you know, and and that’s the first time I ever did that before that it was more structured and storyboards and previz and all that kind of stuff but there’s millions of different ways to tell the story but at the end of the day and I think this is where filmmakers gets so cooked just missed the mark.
It is about what story you’re trying to tell. How are you trying to impact? The world in one way shape or form. Whatever your what’s your what’s your take on it? What is your perspective? Zactly voice? Yeah, they forget that really that perfecting their craft is not about learning how to use more boxes.
It’s really about learning how to really Define their voice and their style as a Storyteller and embracing that and and let em feeling comfortable in their scheme actually owning their style of production and. What they bring to the films that they want to release to Market actually and I think that’s that’s actually a really good point people really need to focus more on their voice.
And and what they want to say is opposed to experimenting with 14 different types of camera setups before they feel they’ve made a serious film. Well if I think the other thing is that like well. That movie was shot. You know, this Oscar winning movie was shot on Alexa. So if I shoot a movie with Alexa, then my chances are so much better to get an Oscar.
Like that’s the myth isn’t that the mentality like seriously? Oh, I have to get a red because that’s. Like The Avengers were shot on so I wanted 200 million dollar budget. So I guess I have yeah on the right. It’s it’s not easy. It really is not a I hope we’ve changed if we only feel comfortable stepping out on the road and driving a car if we could have a $300,000 vehicle.
I mean we can still drive in a $2,000 bomb. But you know, it’s it’s you’re still get it still gets us to a to be hopefully but it’s fine to Aspire towards those those other lofty cameras and setups but. My thing is I think what people think about it. If I’m a great story tell if I’ve got an idea for telling a story what can I resource around me?
That’ll help enable me to tell that story right rather than give myself more excuses and delays and procrastinating about actually starting making that film. Absolutely and I hope today’s conversation. Jason has has woken a few people up has inspired a few people to pick up the thing in their pocket and go tell the story experiment learn.
I mean, there is no film development. Is no huge amounts of media that you have to buy and trans. I mean it’s if you want to tell a story there is no excuse and that’s what I that’s what I hope this conversation. This interview has helped a few people today. So thank you for for dropping the knowledge bombs.
I’m going to ask you a few questions that I ask all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker wanting to break into the business today? I would say. You are your projects best Advocate. Hmm. So never ever give up on it. If you give up on your project, if you waiver if you lose the love nobody else is going to have the love for your project like you do.
So you need to be the absolute Champion for your project and never lose sight of that. I think I see a lot of people with an idea that. As soon as I start shopping it around or they start asking for opinions. They feel that it’s probably a less Alyssa thing than what they started out with and they park it off to the side and then they lose the love for it.
I think yeah, you need to be a project best advocate. So never stop selling the concept of what you want to make if you believe in it with all your heart if you feel it’s a thing you really want to make. It’s your sole responsibility with the champion for you. Need you need to pull everybody else on board and you need to fly the flag all the time.
And I think you have to be free of the good opinion of others in many ways. Absolutely and in fact, you know seeking the advice and opinions of people around you that aren’t your friends and family is probably the other thing I would say is making sure you get some good independent reviews of your work and.
It’ll hurt the first time someone comes back to you in tears it to shreds. Yeah, it’s a horrible experience. But if you sit on it for two or three days and look at your work again with with that in your mind, hopefully you can learn from the process and certainly that’s probably how I’ve grown as a filmmaker and a Storyteller is by exposing my work to people that are really respect that don’t have a personal association with me that feel honest enough to actually really be honest about a project when I show that to them and to take on board list.
Listen to their conversation with fresh ears and eyes after a few days when the pain is settled and you can look at your work and actually learn from it and grow as a storytelling is really important. Absolutely now. Can you tell me the book that had the biggest impact on your life or career? The book that had the biggest impact on my life or career.
I’m going to probably be a little controversial here and say it’s going to be a book with no words, okay? I’m going to give you a book called The Arrival by Shaun tan. Okay, I don’t know if you’ve heard of that. He’s a he’s a graphic novelist based in the western side of Australia. He won an Academy Award for an animation called The Lost thing I believe.
A few years ago and he this graphical novel called. The arrival is an incredible story about what it likes what it’s like to feel. To walk in the shoes of being an immigrant in a new country, but it’s completely told through incredible illustrations. No words needed add events its own language through the book when you read it.
That’s all so, yeah the arrival by Shaun tan definitely check that out. It’s incredible rate of a great great. It’s like a storyboard incredible Story one. Awesome. Now what lesson took you the longest to learn whether the film industry or in life.
The lesson that took me the longest to learn would have to be to never stop making whether you feel you’re a success or a failure whether you feel you’re inspired or not. There is no replacement for making and keeping at all sharp and keeping your skills sharp, and I think always staying in the game.
Always going out finding story listening making story all the time always refine your skills and keep going don’t give yourself a year off and filmmaking you need to keep making wherever you are. Whatever you’re doing. You need to keep making whatever that story is. It’s in front of you keep making it and three of your favorite films of all time.
Three of my favorite films of all time. I’m going to keep it to documentary. Okay, that’s probably my passion. Okay. The first one I would say would be Blackfish. Probably one of my all-time favorite. Yeah, that’s a crazy killer while water a couple killed it and killed an entire company. I mean, yeah, absolutely.
I mean, we’re here I’m here in La so I saw I saw what had happened like I went to SeaWorld that lick with my family and girls wanted to go I was like, I don’t really want to go let’s that support our we’re going to go once and that’s it man a change. Everything it was pretty remarkable that one movie Knocked Down a multi-million dollar corporations pretty amazed and play in it.
If you want inspiration as a documentary filmmaker, like there is no greater inspiration and something like that when you see that the cause and effect of the film like that’s incredible the second film I would probably pick is Searching for Sugar Man or what I want. Oh God. I love that movie. It was so loved it and.
Chunks of it were actually filmed on iPhone. Really. I didn’t know that. Yes, I looked it up large chunks of the the recreated historical footage. I think was filmed with a 8-millimeter film app on a smartphone that’s critical because he was doing it’s sad that he passed away. But I remember the filmmaker he did it almost all by himself like he was yeah editing for like two or three years and.
And then he got the Oscar which is just like oh my god when I saw I mean that is the ultimate in the film hustle Searching for Sugar Man this this guy made it happen. Incredible Story made with really space resources. Yeah, beautiful. Was that other one that just came out a few years ago as it the Walk the Line about oh, what do you know?
I’m talking about the one that the guy across the Twin Towers. Yeah. Yeah. What yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, something like that. What an amazing documentary I fell in love with that guy. He’s crazy. I love him. Sorry. I’m sorry. I’m sorry in the third one. I got a third one for you one for you.
And that’s a film I could call Brian hurt Slinger cut and then the his documentary is my date with Drew. Okay, Matt and Jenna doesn’t I remember them I’ve seen that movie that one. Yeah when he when he was about making a new stalker laws were a little less back then apparently, but he wanted he wanted to make he wanted a date with Drew Barrymore and he made a whole documentary about.
In 30 days incredible just the Ultimate Challenger. Can you make a film in 30 days? He didn’t even own a camera that was incredible thing. He and his two friends had to go and beg borrow and steal a camera on a credit card which has it be able to get a refund on within 30 days. That was a promise to making the film Ray was that I knew that has a window to make 30 days to go and find.
A date with Drew Barrymore and I think Rotten Tomatoes actually called it the love it or hate. It stalker artsy. Like it was the like I said, yeah, you probably could not make that film in 2018, but back in 2004. It was just it’s one of those heartwarming very simply made films the Aesthetics in a very pure very basic but.
Super sweet story and as a documentary filmmaker so much hope in there for making story with minimal means those are some great choices my friend great choices. Now where can people find you in the work you do. Look probably the best place would be on Facebook to look up film breaker. If I LM BR EA ke R.
That’s the page where I’ve been sharing most of my knowledge bombs and work of late. We’ve got a few influences on their contributing. Basically. It’s a space where people who want to learn how to make films with their smartphones can be tooled up can be can be. Inspired and we set that up in March this year with an aim of finding 10,000 people around the world that had a similar mindset and we’re now up to just over 30,000.
So yeah film breaker on Facebook is definitely the place to connect to stay in touch with what we’re making and yeah, check out our work awesome man. Thank you Jason again so much. This has been an amazing interview amazing conversation and I really do hope it inspires people out there in the tribe and whoever.
Is listening to this to get out there and just go tell their story man with doesn’t matter what you could you have the power in your hands completely. I like so wonderful being shy thanks so much for the opportunity. And I really appreciate it. I want to thank Jason again for being on the show man.
Thank you for those knowledge bombs Jason and guys. I’m telling you. It is in the power of your hands. Don’t let. The lack of big movie gear stop you you can make your movie. You can make your short. You can make your feature. You can make your series with an iPhone with an Android phone they are so so so powerful.
I would have killed to have something like this when I was coming up in the business to just even practice with let alone to take it to the next level and actually shoot professional projects with so, thanks again Jason for the inspiration. If you want to get links to Jason’s work what he’s doing as well as links to tan.
The tangerine and our interview with Sean Baker and also a link to the video podcast of this head over to any film hustle.com forward slash 2 8 4 and if you haven’t already please head over to indie film hustle dot TV check out what we’re doing. It is amazing. The tribe is growing their daily. So thank you again so much for the support and I got such big.
Stuff coming for you guys in the months to come. So thanks again for everything and I hope this episode was of service to you guys on your filmmaking journey. And as always keep that hustle going keep that dream alive, and I’ll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the indie film hustle podcast at indie film hustle.com.