IFH 284: iPhone Filmmaking & Cinematography with Jason Van Genderen

Alex Ferrari 3:04
But today's guest is kind of a revolutionary filmmaker man. His name is Jason Van Genderen. And Jason is an iPhone filmmaking fanatic. He actually threw away and gave away or sold all of his big high end gear and he is a strictly an iPhone filmmaker, all his productions. All of his videos, he shoots strictly on iPhones and has built an insane business around it. And I'm not just talking about he's doing his own little private shorts. He does, you know, client based work shooting iPhones and people always freak out about like, why are you just showing up with an iPhone. I'm like, just trust us. We know what we're doing. He actually teaches all around Australia, in the US in Europe, about filmmaking with iPhones, and I wanted to have him on the show because I wanted to prove again to you guys that you don't need all this big heavy equipment. You don't need a red you don't need an Alexa you don't even need a big black magic camera. You just need what's in your pocket if you can afford the bigger cameras great, but you don't need it. Just so you know you can't tell compelling stories without it. And his first short film he shot on an iPhone has been played in hundreds of film festivals around the world and is 110s of 1000s of dollars in Film Festival prizes and stuff. So I he he really is an inspiration to filmmakers around the world. And I so wanted I really searched them out and I wanted him on the show. And I'm so blessed and humbled that he's on the show and he's gonna be dropping. I'm talking about some serious knowledge bombs on how do you make films with an iPhone. We talked about the gear of what you do to put around the iPhone to make it work even more like a cinematic tool. What apps he uses to Shoot 24 P and all that good stuff, audio, everything we go into a deep, and he has a great course on iPhone filmmaking that will hopefully be coming to IFH.TV very, very soon. I'm working on it, guys. But it, it is a great course as well. He's taught he's had TED talks about filmmaking with iPhones and other things in business. He's just an inspiration in general. Now, if you guys want to see this video live, and actually watch this interview, which was a great one, it's available on the indie film, hustle video podcast on IFH.TV, just go to indiefilmhustle.tv to check it out. And I'll put a link to that in the show notes as well. Without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Jason Van Genderen. I'd like to welcome to the show, Jason Van Genderen. Man, thank you so much for being on the show. Brother!

Jason Van Genderen 5:57
Alex, it's amazing to finally meet you, rather than just listening to through the podcast channels finally get to see you and hear your voice. One on one. It's fantastic. It's awesome, man.

Alex Ferrari 6:07
And you are and we are having this. This is like a international call. So you are in Australia, what time is it over there right now?

Jason Van Genderen 6:15
And well, it's it's almost coming up to half past 10 in the morning for me here. Oh, nice, nice, sunny morning.

Alex Ferrari 6:23
So you are in the future. So you can tell me what happens.

Jason Van Genderen 6:27
I can tell you everything that happened to me or at least half day ahead of you. Well, thanks for the time, Australia is considered to be ahead of anywhere in the world.

Alex Ferrari 6:36
Fair enough. Fair enough. So thank you again for jumping on man. And I you know, the reason why we put you on is because you have a very unique set of skills that we have not had a guest on the show before, which is iPhone filmmaking or pocket filmmaking, as you put it, so we're gonna get deep into that. But first, how did you get in to this crazy business we'd like to call the film industry?

Jason Van Genderen 7:00
Well, my my checkered background really started in the world of advertising. So I, I was working as an art director in the advertising industry for about 13 years. And got really, really tired of just making 30 seconds and 45 seconds stories. Yeah, and just thought there must be another life beyond that. So basically, I I set up my own little business production business called treehouse 17 years ago. And from there, we've gradually we started pretty much as a as a an advertising branding agency. We started working more in television and video and online. And now it's it's 100% of our business, we do a lot of branded content. So we do a lot of commercial content, we do a lot of social content for a lot of brands around the world. And in the spare time, I still make my own films and make a lot of training resources and have really, as you said before, I've have not that I've fallen in love with making things on smartphones. But smartphones really found me as a way of making content. And I was so surprised by what they could create as a tool that I started digging deeper and was just so pleasantly surprised by how deep we could take the technology and the level of what we could actually create with this new miniaturization of our cameras.

Alex Ferrari 8:25
It is I mean, it is like the latest stuff. I mean, there's they're really powerful cameras. I mean, they have some insane capabilities. That literally is incredible. It's sitting around your pocket, but a lot of people just don't know what to do with it because you are not trained anywhere. How to shoot with an iPhone, not in a film school. It's not generally in the mainstream. Everyone looks down upon it, because oh, it's just an iPhone. But Shaun Baker kind of taught us a little bit about that. With his amazing film tangerine. By the way. What did you think of tangerine? When you saw it?

Jason Van Genderen 8:59
Incredible. I watched it in flight somewhere on the way to another festival and yeah, I thought was it? I mean, he shot it on iPhone five. I think?

Alex Ferrari 9:07
It was 5s if I'm not mistaken was either four. I think I might have even been 4s, but it might have been five Yeah, cuz I own a six. I own a six. So I haven't jumped yet. So I think it was one or two back. It was a while ago. Yeah.

Jason Van Genderen 9:23
I think again, it was a trailblazing project and it was very brave, very adventurous. And again with every great story you're watching a film that sure you know it's been shot on a smartphone. Maybe that's how you come across tangerina initially to watch it but i think you know a few minutes in you are totally swept into that story. And that's the great charm of of any film, regardless of what we make it on is all about creating that incredible story. And I think that's that's the voice we need to rise to the top through this. It's not so much about what camera we're filming on. It's about enabling ourselves to tell better stories in more ways.

Alex Ferrari 9:59
No Without question, and I mean, I, when I had Shawn on the show to talk about that a while ago, and he actually told me he's like we played in Sundance, and nobody knew that we shot it on iPhone. Like after the first screening at the very end, it's at shot on an iPhone and everybody just mind blew up.

Jason Van Genderen 10:18
It was like insane. And I think that was an absolute, you know, stroke of brilliance on Sean's behalf. Because a lot of people would have had the temptation of actually saying right up front. Oh, yeah, leave lead with it. Right on. But yeah, it's incredible. The fact that he did that a set is extremely brave, but you know, very critical film. It's deserved or success. It's, it's enjoyed. And yeah, I think, wonderful, a great example of exactly what we're talking about today, which is the fact that, you know, people anywhere with a with a fantastic idea can actually realize their story in some capacity, if they just rethink the tools that they have accessible to them now already. And certainly our smartphones are a fantastic way of upscaling filmic ability.

Alex Ferrari 11:02
Yeah, without question. So. So from what I read about you, there was this like, famous moment where you literally threw away your high end video camera or film camera, it was a video camera, I guess? And just said, screw it. I'm going iPhone all the way. What was that moment? And what caused you to go down that road?

Jason Van Genderen 11:21
You're going down the rabbit hole. Now, Alex, this is a crazy story. This takes us all the way back to 2008. That was like that was like yeah, to this years, decades, really. 10 years ago, 10 years ago. That's just crazy. And I think that we you know, this is I think two years in on having cameras on smartphones right now commercial, so so I find it only just released the year before. I'm not even sure if the 2008 version of the iPhone could record video. But the camera that I had back then was a Nokia in 95, a little sliding smartphone. And I remember carrying this thing around looking at it. And and wondering whether one day we'd actually end up telling stories on our smartphones, whether we could use them as actual camera tools. So I pretty much just walked around and with a couple of friends of mine, Shane Emmett, and john Roy, his his fantastic musical composer. I just we started talking one day I said I'd love to make a film on a smartphone and see if we can actually ever get that into a film Film Festival. And of course, sitting here in Australia. Our aim was to try and get into an International Film Festival. So we, we had this concept of of you know, those magnetic poetry kits? Yeah. Rich. Yeah. Oh, about something, someone add something to it as they walk past the fridge. It's a cool little idea. So we thought what if we could do that with a smartphone film? What if we could actually walk around the city? And so we walked around Sydney with with this little Nokia, and we just filmed words on sites. So we were I guess harvesting words from shopfronts, and vans on parked on the side of the street from the sidewalk from anywhere, we could see signage and words, we'd start filming individual words, we had no concept of a script, we had no storyboard, we had no budget. And we're working with a smartphone that was back in 2000. That we ended up collecting 1200 words. I remember Bluetooth in them one at a time from the phone to my Mac.

Alex Ferrari 13:14
Yeah, there was no way to look it up backwards. Oh, yeah. It was the way to hook it up back there. That's right.

Jason Van Genderen 13:20
By way, absolutely no way. But still, yeah, we were blitzed by that science. We're like, oh, wow, you can actually wirelessly transmit this thing from a phone to a device.

Alex Ferrari 13:28
It's fairly it's fairly insane that technology is

Jason Van Genderen 13:32
It is. So we ended up with 1200 words. And we decided to try and make a film out of that. And of course, it was the complete one on one way of Do not try and make a short film this way. We had no concept of really what we were making film about. We hadn't Like I said before, no script or storyboard. So we weren't we realized, as we were capturing these words on on street signs that were very affected by homeless communities in in the city and the fact that, you know, you can walk down the street, and you can walk past 1020 homeless people a day and never look them in the eye. They kind of become part of the the furniture in the city. Right? The landscape. Yeah. And so we decided we would try and make a project that I guess a story that spoke to that and and questioned whether, you know that there was another way we could connect with with one another on that level. And so we wanted to make a film about homeless societies, in cities in urban environments. And Shane and I, we sat there looking at this list of 1200 words for three nights in a row, and trying to find something to consider something to stitch together into a narrative. And nothing really, it was just like, was like going to the dentist three times in a row. It was honestly we were sitting there just nothing was coming to us. And then we are remember one night we contacted john Roy, this composer friend of ours and we said look, we've got this idea of a film. We want to cut the things together these words, we've got some shots of these incredible homeless people we've met along the way. We want to make a story about hammer societies in an urban environment and our sense of disconnect with that. We want like a piano score, but it has to be like plinky blank. So we can cut the words on certain notes. And I'm totally from a non musical background. So when I say Blinky calm, that's pretty advanced, technical musical speak.

Alex Ferrari 15:22
Same here.

Jason Van Genderen 15:25
But I never like that. So I sent him, I sent him a page with 12 images on it from the shoot. And he went away and compose this incredible three and a half minute piece, which he almost threw away. And he found me the next day, I said, Look, I've got one little piece of music, and but I want to just fine tune it out. And I said, No, no, no, john, send it through. And he did. And Shane and I listened to it and just knew instantly it was the right piece of music for this film. And you can hear the breath in the piano strings was incredible. And the film we made was called mankind is no Ireland. We ended up being inspired by the music, the word started leaping off the page. Once we heard the music, we started finding all of those connections. We put this together, we entered it into a film festival in New York called tropfest, New York. And tropfest at that stage was Australia's biggest Short Film Festival. It attracted an annual live audience of between 80 and 100,000. People.

Alex Ferrari 16:21
I'm sorry, how much

Jason Van Genderen 16:22
80 to 100,000 for a short film festival, or Short Film Festival. This is right on a Sunday evening. On Sunday, summer's evening in Sydney,

Alex Ferrari 16:32
Is there nothing else to do in Sydney during that, like, I don't know. it's mind blowing. Sundance doesn't get like, even Sunday doesn't even get that many people. That's crazy.

Jason Van Genderen 16:44
It is like a rock concert for short for making this insane. I said I had a version in New York, and we decided to enter it into that. And that's where the whole story first started, we end up getting selected, flew across for the festival. We we played the film, we won, we won People's Choice as well, we got this film. And it just started this whole conversation rolling in a much bigger space. And we did lots of media interviews and lots of talks to other film festivals and universities and phone colleges. And yeah, it just started this love of, of actually not being confined so much by the limitations in the gear, we didn't have to tell stories and actually looking at what we did have available to us, and how we could appropriate it and appropriate the concepts that we're working on to be told with simple tools, simple, simpler camera tools.

Alex Ferrari 17:33
And that film cost you $57 if I read correctly,

Jason Van Genderen 17:37
57 Australian dollars.

Alex Ferrari 17:39
Wow. So it's not even American dollar. So while that's not even Americans

Jason Van Genderen 17:43
Will see you know, 42 or three American dollars today.

Alex Ferrari 17:47
And then how much? How much prize money

Jason Van Genderen 17:51
Today, still actually going in festivals around the world. There's 10 years on it still doing the rounds and managed to win over $33,000 in prize money.

Alex Ferrari 18:01
That's insane. Oh my god, like that's, that is that is the hustle that is the indie film hustle without question. Look, I thought I was rough. Because that my first short film, I had it running in festivals, probably like four or five years. And you're still going 10 years in that's insane is not competing anymore. But it's still

Jason Van Genderen 18:23
Getting invitations all the time to screen. And it's amazing. I just love those little projects, you work on those little experimental projects that end up surprising you as the creator as well, as well as the audience. And I think, you know, it's the, for us, it's the gift that keeps on giving. It's the film story that just keeps on traveling around the world finding new audiences. And I watch it every now and then it still teaches me a little bit about what I'm doing. It's still it still has little little gems to give. You know, it's

Alex Ferrari 18:52
Funny I was because a lot of the people I worked a lot of my collaborators have worked on with us short film they kept every time they would see that short film my favorite film come back up. They're like, isn't that horse dead? Like, didn't you kill that? Like the you've you've written that horse? As long as you can? Anything since I'm like, I'm like, No, I just I just, you know, inject them with some adrenaline pick the horse back up and just keep writing up until he keeps going. So hey, if it keeps going, why not right? I mean, if people said it, it's all good. Yeah, and then what would you do? Did you distribute that film? Did you actually put it somewhere to be watched or sold? Or is it strictly just off offline?

Jason Van Genderen 19:27
Literally just just offline on festivals? it's it's it is online at the moment on the the tropfest YouTube channel. Okay, so let's head to life. They're a tad over a million views on there. Yeah, it's, it's, it's crazy. I mean, short film in Australia is a really strong, healthy medium for for creatives coming out of colleges and film schools. It's something we really actively embrace and I feel really fortunate that you know, even a little little old Australia we can actually say we've got a film festival. draws a live audience of 80 to 100,000 a year. It's just insane. And when filmmakers come from overseas, they've never experienced anything like that they walk into this field and they see this sea of people and they think they're at some crazy concert. It's just an incredible experience.

Alex Ferrari 20:15
I mean, you're almost inspiring me to make a short film. I mean, as soon as I gotta send something over there, because I'm just I just want to experience that that sounds amazing. for filming. Like, look, there's very few venues, very few things out there. Can you know Sundance Toronto? They don't bring in 100,000 eyeballs, you know, that's, yeah, that's like YouTube numbers. You get 100,000? Yes.

Jason Van Genderen 20:40
That's it. Yeah. So if if any filmmakers want to make a trip to Australia, try and try and make it around February when tropfest screens in Australia and come and experience the festival because as a filmmaker, it's just this energy of even just being in the in the audience. Even if you don't have a film in the festival, just being in that crowd, and seeing 80 to 100,000 people react and respond at once that to something that seen a screen is just mind blowing. It gives me chills just speaking about

Alex Ferrari 21:08
Because it's nothing that no normal filmmakers don't get that. Like, you know, even the biggest blockbusters from Hollywood doesn't get that all in one. But you don't get an ad 200,000 people watching Avengers like it doesn't happen. So it's, that must be amazing. So let me ask you a few tips for making your iPhone more cinematic. Because that is because if you mean iPhones just like any other tool, you could use a poorly you use it really well.

Jason Van Genderen 21:34
Yeah, yeah. So there's probably a couple of key things. One would be you need to obviously understand the strengths and the limitations of your iPhone as a camera tool. It's got a tiny lens, it's got a tiny imaging chip. The obviously the latest versions of the iPhone have stepped up in quality again, and they're got incredible, you know, dynamic range now. So the things that I would say from the get go, you really need to focus on in accessorizing your phone with to make it a real cinematic capture tool would be. First of all, there's an app called Filmic Pro, which is the same app that Shaun Baker filmed on as well film tangerine on to it gives you a complete manual control of all the camera inputs on your iPhone. So if you can imagine the kind of controls you have on a DSLR camera, you can have those on your iPhone with Filmic Pro. So it's invaluable. It's It's It's the number one selling manual camera app around the world, I believe. And it allows you to then work with a whole host of other accessories which you can obviously then put onto your phone to expand what it can see optically what it can hear. So yeah, Filmic Pro, that'd be the first thing I tell people to do go rush out, find that out, put it on your phone and play with it. And it's pretty cheap. That's incredible, like 15 bucks profit. Yeah, probably. I think it's around 20 something here in Australia. But yeah, it's look for. Isn't it funny these days with apps we talked about, you know, paying anything for an app. And whenever I go to a film college and I say, Oh, you need to buy this app, and it's $20. And they got like, wow, that's crazy. I'm never paying $20 for an app. But you know, you're expanding the functionality of the device. Everybody wants everything for free. It's insane.

Alex Ferrari 23:19
Tell me about it. Well, I know. I completely understand what you're saying.

Jason Van Genderen 23:27
Fairly. So Philly Pro is the bedrock that's that's the thing I would start with. And of course, it's available in an android version as well. So if you're not on iPhone, if you got something else you can you can run Filmic Pro It's amazing. The other thing that that is a real game changer with iPhone, we call it iconography his

Alex Ferrari 23:45
Trademark

Jason Van Genderen 23:48
Is the ability to add accessory lenses now. So a lot of people always they've heard of, you know, lens clips like auto clip or moment lenses and things like that, which have their own sort of fastening system onto your phone. Base grip, make an incredible caged system for your iPhone or for any smartphone and have a device called a df two which has a depth of field converter and accent essentially it's a it's a barrel which attaches to the base group camera cage, which you put your phone in, and it allows you to then accessorize your iPhone with any number of different DSLR lenses or Sony lenses.

Alex Ferrari 24:25
Is it worth it? Because that's a lot of glass going through a lot of glass. So is it gonna degrade the image a bunch or is it worth it?

Jason Van Genderen 24:34
It's definitely worth it if you want to work with with no shallow depth of field, it's really at the moment the only real way we can do it until computational imaging sort of steps it up another couple of notches and we can get the effect of what we see in portrait store mode now on our phones. But you know when we can get that in video mode, then that kind of is another conversation again. But in the meantime, if you do love, you know that beautiful cinematic look of layering the focus in your vision If you need something like a depth of field converter to actually attach accessory lenses to your smartphone and look it is great. It does cut back the light input a little bit because essentially what you're telling the lens to do is to focus on a another focusing screen inside the depth of field converter. And that sounds very technical, but in the end of the day, it allows your your iPhone to be able to see through any lens pretty much you can put in front of it. And we've seen things captured we've certainly captured things ourselves here commercially, through through lenses that people would never ever guess have been attached to a phone. They just they wouldn't think it's been filmed in the smartphone.

Alex Ferrari 25:37
I mean, I think you and I are similar vintages as far as our age is concerned. So you might remember this camera Do you remember the dv x 100? a Panasonic yes was really wonderful. Wasn't that with the most beautiful camera ever? It was the first 24 feet the first 24 p camera and it had a stock lens on it was a like it was a beautiful lock lens, but then you couldn't get that depth. So you had the 35 millimeter adapter and then you could put on those things, but then you would it automatically lose like a stopper too. So you have to like yeah, totally pop so similar in that way. And I think it had like a glass didn't have like a glass. Oh, yeah, this was something. I did a movie once that because I shot my film on the DVS and I had the adapt I had a screw in adapter and that the 35 but a screw in Yeah, to get the white. Just to get the sorry, everybody were geeking out old school now. Yeah. But But I had a film that came in, it was a million dollar feature film that they shot on the DVD x. I don't know why, but they did this is back years years ago. And they never attached the adapter properly. And in the top corner, you would see the mirror like the little little circle like flickering. The whole movie, all the footage I'm like, was the first time dp but that's a whole other story for a whole other movie, podcast. But that was that was the technology we were dealing with. But the reason I brought that up is because it did drop a lot of drop stops. So I'm assuming that this is similar, that you've got to pump similar light in

Jason Van Genderen 27:09
More light. And that's that is an absolute given with with all smartphones and any small lens camera we need to smaller sensors need more light. So we need to work with more light when we're when we're shooting. Although you know, having said that the new Xs dynamic range and that is incredible. We took that out for camera test a couple of weeks ago to film festival here in Australia. just comparing the 10 to the 10 s in nighttime tests and the amount of extra latitude and exposure was insane. It's it's like 30 to 40% more light coming in in low light situations. Now are you choosing?

Alex Ferrari 27:44
Are you finding more filmmakers using this as a serious cat like a serious package? Because I don't see a lot I mean other than Shaun Baker and there's a handful of other, you know, outliers and yourself obviously. But are there Have you seen Have you run across other filmmakers who are doing serious work with iPhones?

Jason Van Genderen 28:02
We have we've actually started to see the explosion of smartphone film festivals are really taking off. Yeah, so earlier this year, I was at one in San Diego run by Susan botello amazing smartphone Film Fest went to one in Zurich, the MoMA Film Festival here in Australia with SF three smartphone flick fest. Now these these are getting big support and played at the Opera House in Sydney. I mean that's how much attention these festivals are getting. People are rocking up at the Opera House LMR building here in Australia to watch films all created on a smartphone and people are really starting to push the boundaries it's not just people picking these up and you know a weekend hack someone just having a go at the first time it's storytelling we're seeing real capable storytellers picking up their smartphones and really experimenting with the media and pushing the envelope as to what it can do as a camera tool and of course these days we can we can accessorize with any microphone we can we can put wireless microphones on smartphones and capture dialogue and distance without being connected with leads we can do all that sort of

Alex Ferrari 29:09
Yeah, I was gonna actually ask you how do you record professional sound because a lot of people will just pick up and go action and be like no, that's not gonna work very well.

Jason Van Genderen 29:19
Well we work with with all the full range of pro microphones we use any other other kind of production we can still work with with our smartphones as well or your obviously you still have the choice of recording your audio separately and sinking it in post. We generally do both. We recording to the camera as well as have backup audio too. We can never enough backups of audio. So yeah, yeah, accessory microphones are definitely out there for literally for less than $100 you can buy a really incredible quality microphone to improve the quality of the sound in your smartphone 300% and it's a no brainer. We see people actually starting to access Whereas with a couple of $100 worth of equipment, and they see the leap in quality that they're achieving, they just get the bag and they want to get more and more and more. And the amount of times I've been on red carpets at film festivals, and I pull out a little Smartphone Rig, and I'm just doing a little voxpop with someone or someone I've met that I want to ask a question to. And I get one or two questions out, and then instantly it's finished. All the producers and directors just start coming over there taking photos of the phone rig, they want to know what it is, how do you shoot with it? Where do I get it that like it still seems to be such a new conversation. But the more that people are seeing it, the more they're getting exposed to it, the more they're understanding that there's a place in their production kit for a smartphone, a broadcast smartphone kit.

Alex Ferrari 30:41
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. Now, let me ask you because there is a stigma around shooting with an iPhone. I mean, Shaun Baker definitely broke that down a bunch. But everybody I mean, I've talked to people professionals, you know, snooty, let's call them snooty la guys, who's like, that's not a real cinema phone. I mean, that's this or that. Yeah. And you know what, you can't compete and I found I can compete with Alexa. It's just not going to period, it's never going to, but it will put the power of it of being able to tell a story in the hands of someone who can't maybe afford or get access to an Alexa. Now how do you look? Because I know a lot of people listening right now. their egos are are full right now. people listening I promise you, I promise you someone out there is going this is ridiculous. I would never I'm a I'm a serious change out already. I Exactly. Like I'm a serious cinematic cinephile. I'm a filmmaker, I don't, I don't shoot with an iPhone. That's what's in my pocket. I talk on by text on that. But what do you say to people like that? Because I mean, I'm always about like, whatever is the best tool for what you know, I shot my last film on the pocket camera. So it's just like, what's the proper tool, it's not perfect for everything, if you're going to shoot a half million dollar movie, I found might not be the right tool for it. But if you're doing short, or you're doing a smaller micro budget feature, and you could get a lot of bang for your buck. So what do you say to people like that, who have that, and I'm sure you've run into them.

Jason Van Genderen 32:18
I'm positive all the time, all the time. And they're my favorite people to convert when I go to a festival. And the I mean, some of my peers I work with in the industry here are still saying, I've got rocks in my head by right we, when I show them what's possible with with the equipment, they they quickly change their mind. And I think as you said, there is a definite stigma associated with not having a large camera in your hands when you're going to film a serious projects. But we can turn that stigma around to I think that that stigma is something that's been a bit of a stain on the industry as a whole. For a long time, a lot of people feel the day, there hasn't been room for them, there hasn't been an inclusion there because they don't have access to that red epic, or they don't have the means available to them to tool up with what's considered to be a proper cinematic camera or broadcast camera. And they've not gone into storytelling or filmmaking because of that. And I think that's a great shame. Because I've met some incredible writers, I've met some incredible producers, and want to be cinematographers that have incredible ideas that just put them on ice for three, four or five years, and they never make them because they just don't think those things are available to them. So the great joy here is actually saying we can turn that stigma around actually say that stigma is probably one of the strengths of smartphone cinematography, and that you can actually be a story teller, anywhere, anytime, with with that thing that's in your pocket. And no one's gonna question you you can be, you can be a one person production team, you can be operating very frugally. You could be in the middle of Times Square. filming this incredible shot, but nobody knows whether you're filming it just for a social feed or whether you're actually making something that's going to screen at Sundance, you're never gonna get a tap on the shoulder by the security guards or the local administration asking you for your film permits. You're never going oh, you see what I'm saying? You can really fly under the radar with with a small camera like a smartphone. And even when it's accessorize with some lenses and audio, we've never ever been kicked out of an area. We've never been stopped from filming. We've never been considered a serious crew. And that's part of what I love. We can actually travel around we can get these incredible stories, we can capture this incredible footage. And we're never hindered in our way. And it's such as an enabler for us in in in capturing story. I love it. For me, that's what I love doing. I'm a documentary filmmaker. So for me, you know being able to run around like a ninja and, and capture and create story and not be burdened by the process of the people around me or the environment that I'm filming in is a wonderful joy and it's something that's allowed me to to actually make stories I couldn't make any other way.

Alex Ferrari 34:54
Yeah, exactly. I think it was a lot like the when the DSLRs first came out. People were Making you know, like Michel Polish his film for lovers only or things like that where they literally went to Paris and shot everywhere in restaurants every because it was it was people thought they were taking pictures that technology was so new and now similar things with iPhones like no one. They're not professionals obviously, there they don't know what they're doing obviously so let's not bother them you know, I even ran across that with with the pocket, you know, like with my pocket camera people are like, what do you what do you do and I'm I'm shooting a feature Like what? Like it's, it's mind blowing, but you could sneak in with those kinds of cameras in the iPhone is the ultimate of that because everybody knows that camera. I mean, you knows that device, so you never you'll never get caught with it. And you

Jason Van Genderen 35:46
It's happened all through the chain. Sorry, I just said it's happened all through the chain of evolution in camera craft. If we look back to the very beginning with with film camera and sexual film cameras, when the digital video camera revolution came along the film industry, the film camera industry, all those traditional cinematographers did not write the digital camera setups, they, they they never thought they were gonna have a long lasting place in the industry. And of course, history tells us otherwise when you know, the first DSLR came out, I think in 2007 or eight actually film video.

Alex Ferrari 36:20
Yeah, remember the five d? came out? Yeah,

Jason Van Genderen 36:23
Yeah. You know, when that first one came out with the record capacity for video, the digital video camera market said that's not that's not a proper camera that said we can record video of course, yeah. Everybody deny that that was actually going to make any kind of inroads in our industry. And now we're sitting at that other chapter, we've got the further miniaturization of aircraft, we've got smartphones, we've got action cameras, adventure cameras. We've got all sorts with a wearable cameras coming next. Yeah, we've got so many things that are new to the industry. And of course, everyone's shooting on a DSLR, or a digital video camera or anything else is, is going that that's definitely not a serious camera history will prove that different. And again, it's not about saying, you know, smartphone cameras are going to overtake the industry. And you know, every other kind of camera is going to destroy it. Of course, it's not going to happen now. But what we do need to be aware of is the fact that, you know, for some of those productions, or some elements of your production, maybe a smartphone camera is actually going to be able to capture that scene, or tell that story better than something else. You're already having your kid.

Alex Ferrari 37:25
Yeah, and without question. No, no, absolutely. Without question. And you could sneak into places with that small camera and get shots. I do actually know of a few filmmakers in DPS, who are on network shows, who will Yeah, we'll do a little and they'll intercut. And if it's a quick little action thing or something like that, you know, it works. It really works.

Jason Van Genderen 37:50
I think the way that I a couple of weeks ago Alex, I actually was a guest at one of our major television networks here in Australia, there was 240, their executives gathered around in one of the big studios, they have one of these get togethers every three months. And they have guest speakers from all sides of the of the film and television industry coming in and address them once. Every quarter, I came in to talk to him about what smartphones are going to do what what space is there for smartphones in the broadcast television world and, and I would have thought that would have been a really hostile audience going in and speaking to all those executives and AP, network producers and series producers, and they loved it. They were they were totally on board, they loved opening their minds to what they could do. And of course, you know, we'd be having drps working on TV series coming up to us afterwards saying, you know, we've been filming with the same cameras for 20 years. And we're not allowed to upgrade our cameras because of budget. But we could afford two or three of these kids to accessorize what we're doing in our production. And so they're seeing the the opportunity for it, and there's definitely space for it in the industry. And when people start seeing some you know, in the coming years, we'll see some more feature films We'll see. definitely see a lot more documentaries coming out that have been created on smartphones. And I think that'll help really change maybe a catalyst of change for that conversation. And you know, we can buy $120 anamorphic lens to put on the front of your phone and capture a beautiful animal for picture right. Off the lens me is the whole thing. Yeah, it's and it fits in your pocket. It's inside. It's It's crazy,

Alex Ferrari 39:28
Do. I mean, do you feel like it's I mean, the iPhone revolution or the smartphone revolution is kind of similar to what happened with the DSLR like, people were like only like the first early adopters would go in and start playing and toy and making little films with it and all that kind of stuff. And now I feel that that's what's happening with iPhone technology and with smartphone technology

Jason Van Genderen 39:50
Completely completely. In fact, we've so we run a production agency here in Australia, and we earlier this year became the first production house In Australia to actually down scale our tools. So we now actually shoot all of our television commercials and all of our brand content for big brands exclusively on iPhones. We do it all on iPhones, with accessory lenses, accessory microphones, everything we produce out of our production agency is all sourced on our phone.

Alex Ferrari 40:17
Now how, how is it when you show up to set? you bust up and be like, Oh, I love it. No, no, but like other people, like other people, like what are the What is it? Other people say, I have to believe that like, you show up and there's a crew, and they're like, No, seriously, what are we shooting on?

Jason Van Genderen 40:34
Is there 20 people, there's five people and then all of a sudden it's like, Yeah, but you guys aren't serious. He just doing the social stuff. Right? And and are we actually doing the broadcast stuff today? And, look, it's amazing, because it opens many conversations, when we're filming talent, they love it, because it's a completely different way of working. And they find they're more in the mind rather than the process of the filmmaking process. So that it's a bit of liberated for talent as well. And definitely, you know, when when we're doing documentary interviews, there's nothing like putting an unassuming camera setup in front of the documentary subjects and getting them to open up, we have been able to get so many more incredibly deep conversations going through using smartphones as camera capture tools, as opposed to traditional camera setups. For people that aren't used to being in front of the camera, it is an incredible enabler. And absolutely, without a doubt we've we've made stories that wouldn't have ever made it to air. If it wasn't for the iPhone as a caption capture tool.

Alex Ferrari 41:35
Now, you said you touched on something I would love to kind of dig deep a little deeper into a talent. I mean, obviously the documentary world it You're right, because obviously documentaries you got when people open up and when they see this Alexa, or red rig, which tend to be huge sometimes. Yeah, it could be over into is especially intimidating for people who are not versed in our world. But when you you know, you're like, Okay, we're just gonna shoot this just open up, it's fine. It's Yeah, yeah, that I have to believe is a lot better on a documentary standpoint, but also just as actors, you know, there's a freedom and a speed that you can move with these rigs. You know, even with my experience with shooting with with the the small camera, I was able to move so quickly. And the actors were just like on, like, there's no going back to the trailer for an hour while we reset, know where we're going. And there's an energy to it. So what I would love to talk to you about that?

Jason Van Genderen 42:35
Yeah, totally, we find exactly the same, it's, you know, it's so much faster to do same transitions to lighting setups are simpler, everything is a lot more simpler. And so we find we have more ability to block through a scene, we have more ability to work through the dialogue, the transactions, we just we see a lot more scope, a lot more experimentation with what we're capturing, as opposed to being extremely didactic about what we're wanting to shoot. And we call it lean forward filmmaking, we think it's really this, this sense of stepping on set, and we actually have the camera in hand ready to go. And we let the camera almost show and guide for us what could be a good flow for the camera movement, what could be good coverage in the scene, it's quite different to actually sitting there. And first of all, overly pre producing, how we're going to actually capture that scene, how we're going to lens it, how we're going to load, all that sort of thing, we find that there's just this, there's almost like an organic nature to the production, which is really nice. And particularly, I think for people that are not really versed with working with larger crews that are relatively new to working with other people, I think anything you can do to help keep your your crew small, to keep your equipment tight overhead, gives you more flexibility in your shoot day. And then in your call sheet. I think all that stuff's all the positive. So it's a great way to actually really give yourself many more options and what you probably would do with it with a traditional camera setup.

Alex Ferrari 44:05
And at the end of the day, and I think this is I think we could both agree on this. It doesn't really matter what the hell you shoot on is What's the story? And that's what people get so until I mean I did I did full podcast about stop obsessing about gear no one gives a crap like they really don't. Only guys like you and me will go so what you shoot on, like, really, but people watching a film on Netflix doesn't care. They shot on my legs on red on black magic on an iPhone, it doesn't matter. But people I think and you might you know, you might love to hear what you think about it. But I think a lot of times filmmakers use that as an excuse not to actually be filmmakers because they hide behind it.

Jason Van Genderen 44:49
I totally agree. And I think you and I have both gone to the exact same networking opportunities at festivals where you step into a room of fellow creatives, filmmakers You meet one another, and it's nobody talks about the project they're working on, they say, I've just been shooting something on XYZ, right? straightaway, they're into the gear that straightaway, it's all about the box. And I'm sure if you go to a great restaurant and go and have a chat to some chefs, they're not talking about what brand knife they've been chopping vegetables and fish with that night, they're talking about something entirely different. You know, when we, when we think about, you know, incredible performance on stage, the first thing they don't credit their success with is the brand of the microphone that they're singing into, or the PA system. But somehow, in the filmmaking industry, we're still very caught up in the fact that it's all about boxes and lenses. It's marketing. It's the marketing.

Alex Ferrari 45:42
It's the marketing of the companies, though, the companies want you to continue to buy new lenses, buy new cameras, buy new everything. So it's, and again, you hear from the beginning of your career, so you get caught up in it. I've kind of let go of that. Now. I'm like, what's the right tool for the job?

Jason Van Genderen 45:58
Yeah, yeah, totally. And it's become almost like a skin, I feel it's like something you said before, like, we wrap it over. So I was like a mask. And that's we talking about the equipment and the gear seems to be an easier thing to do, then actually opening up about what we're trying to say with what we're capturing. And, and I think as soon as we can start changing those conversations, it's actually Alex the same reason why I never go on in introduce myself as a filmmaker anymore. As early this year, I now call myself a film breaker. Because I feel the way I make films is, is at odds with what the industry perception of normally is. And so I think I tend to break a lot of rules when I make my films rather than making them. So when I say I'm a filmmaker, and I step in that same environment, yeah. What's the first question you think someone asked you? When you say you're a filmmaker? What's the next thing that comes out of their mouth?

Alex Ferrari 46:46
Or what are you shooting on? Or what? What films have you made that I know? Well, there's that chance?

Jason Van Genderen 46:51
Yeah, it's not a lot. Yeah, there's probably not a lot that I've made that that most people would have seen. So yeah, you're right, you release myself as a phone breaker that introduces a conversation rather than stopping it with a period in the conversation. It's just, it's a way of enabling people to understand that there's more than one way to make a film come alive.

Alex Ferrari 47:08
I always tell people that, you know, if you give a canvas and paint and brush to Basquiat, Warhol, and Paul, you're gonna get paint on a canvas. But how you get it is up to them. And it really doesn't matter. The style you make it like I know, I've worked with filmmakers who. And I've also talked to filmmakers who are completely improv films, like I've done my last two films are fairly, you know, structures, outlines and film. And you know, and that's the first time I ever did that, before that it was more structured and storyboards, and previous, and all that kind of stuff. But there's millions of different ways to tell the story. But at the end of the day, and I think this is where filmmakers get so caught, just missed the mark. It is about what story you're trying to tell, how are you trying to impact the world in one way, shape, or form? Whatever, your what's your, what's your take on it? What is your perspective?

Jason Van Genderen 48:03
On voice? A lot of people get lost in that. Yeah, they they, they forget that really, that perfecting their craft is not about learning how to use more boxes. It's really about learning how to really define their voice and their style as a storyteller. And embracing that and let him feeling comfortable in their skin, actually owning their style of production and what they bring to the films that they want to release to market actually, I think that's, that's actually a really good point. People really need to focus more on their voice. And and what they want to say, as opposed to experimenting with, you know, 14 different types of camera setups before they feel they've made a serious film.

Alex Ferrari 48:43
Well, I think the other thing is that like, well, that movie was shot you know, this Oscar winning movie was shot on Alexa. So if I shoot a movie with Alexa, then my chances are so much better to get an Oscar. Like, isn't that the mentality? Like seriously? Oh, I have to get a read because that's what like the Avengers was shot on. So I want a $200 million budgets. I guess I have Yeah. It's it's, it's it's not a it really is not,

Jason Van Genderen 49:06
I hope we've aged if we only felt comfortable stepping out on the road and driving a car if we could have a $300,000 vehicle. I mean, we can still drive in a $2,000 bomb. But you know, it's, it's, we're still it still gets us to a to b hopefully. But it's fine to aspire towards those those other lofty cameras and setups. But the main thing is, I think what people need to think about is, if I'm a great storyteller, if I've got an idea for telling a story, what can a resource around me that'll help enable me to tell that story right, rather than give myself more excuses and delays and procrastinating about actually starting making that form?

Alex Ferrari 49:44
Absolutely. I hope today's conversation Jason has has woken a few people up has inspired a few people to pick up the thing in their pocket and go tell a story, experiment learn. I mean, there is no film development. There is no Huge amounts of media that you have to buy. And trust me, it's if you want to tell a story, there is no excuse. And that's what I that's what I hope this conversation this interview has helped a few people today. So thank you for, for dropping the knowledge bombs, I'm gonna ask a few questions that I asked all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker wanting to break into the business today?

Jason Van Genderen 50:26
I would say you are your projects best advocate. So never ever give up on it. If you give up on your project, if you waver if you lose the love, nobody else is going to have the love for your project like you do. So you need to be the absolute champion for your project. And never ever lose sight of that. I think I see a lot of people with an idea that soon as they start shopping it around or they start asking for opinions, they feel that it's probably a less lesser thing than what they started out with. And they park it off to the side and then they lose the love for it. I think you need to be your projects, best advocate. So never stop selling the concept of what you want to make. If you believe in it with all your heart. If you feel it's a thing you really want to make, it's your sole responsibility to the champion for it, you need to you need to pull everybody else on board and you need to fly the flag all the time.

Alex Ferrari 51:21
And I think you have to be free of the good opinion of others. In many ways.

Jason Van Genderen 51:27
Absolutely. In fact, you know, seeking the advice and opinions of people around you that aren't your friends and family is probably the other thing I would say is making sure you get some good independent reviews of your work. And and it'll hurt the first time someone comes back to you and tears it to shreds. Yeah, it's a horrible experience. But if you sit on it for two or three days and look at your work again with with that, in your mind, hopefully you can learn from the process. And certainly, that's probably how I've grown as a filmmaker and a storyteller is by exposing my work to people that I really respect that don't have a personal association with me, that feel honest enough to actually really be honest about a project want to show that to them and take on board listen to listen to their conversation with fresh ears and eyes after a few days when the pain is settled, and you can look at your work and actually learn from it and grow as a storyteller. Important.

Alex Ferrari 52:22
Absolutely. Now, can you tell me the book that had the biggest impact on your life or career?

Jason Van Genderen 52:29
The book that had the biggest impact on my life or career? I'm going to probably be a little controversial here and say it's going to be a book with no words. Okay. And I'm going to give you a book called The Arrival by Shaun tan. Okay. I don't know if you've heard of that. he's a he's a graphic novelist. Based in the western side of Australia. He won an Academy Award for an animation called The last thing I believe, two years ago. And he Yeah, this graphical novel called the the arrival is an incredible story about what it likes what it's like to feel, to walk in the shoes of being an immigrant in a new country. But it's completely taught through incredible illustrations. No words needed. It invents its own language through the book when you read it. Yeah, the arrival by Shaun tan definitely check that out. Incredible readable, great, great. It's like a storyboard incredible storyboard.

Alex Ferrari 53:28
Awesome. Now what lesson took you the longest to learn whether the film industry or in life?

Jason Van Genderen 53:36
The lesson that took me the longest to learn, would have to be to never stop making. Whether you feel your success or failure, whether you feel you're inspired or not, there is no replacement for making and keeping your tools sharp and keeping your skills sharp. And I think always staying in the game. Always going out, finding story listening, making story all the time. Always refine your skills and keep going. Don't give yourself a year off from filmmaking. You need to keep making wherever you are, whatever you're doing, you need to keep making whatever that story is that's in front of you keep making it

Alex Ferrari 54:16
And three of your favorite films of all time?

Jason Van Genderen 54:20
Three of my favorite films of all time, I'm going to keep it a documentary, because that's probably my passion.

Alex Ferrari 54:26
Okay.

Jason Van Genderen 54:28
The first one I would say would be Blackfish probably one of my all time favorite. Yeah, that's a killer whale.

Alex Ferrari 54:38
What I will kill them to kill the entire company. I mean, yeah, absolutely. I mean, we're here. I'm here in LA. So I saw I saw when it happened, like I went to SeaWorld that like with my family, yeah, girls wanted to go. I was like, I don't really want to go, let's support it, or we're gonna go once and that's it. Man. They changed everything. It was pretty remarkable that one move be knocked down a multi million dollar corporations pretty amazing.

Jason Van Genderen 55:04
Clearly and if you want inspiration as a documentary filmmaker, there is no greater inspiration than something like that. When you see the cause and effect of the film like that's incredible. The second film I would probably pick is searching for sugar man,

Alex Ferrari 55:18
Ohh what I wonder. Oh, God, I love that movie. Yeah, it was so good. Sorry. No, go ahead. Good.

Jason Van Genderen 55:26
I just large chunks of it were actually filmed on iPhone. Really? I didn't know that. Yes, I looked it up large chunks of the the recreated historical footage, I think was filmed with a eight millimeter film app on a smartphone.

Alex Ferrari 55:44
Because he was doing it sad that he passed away but I remember the filmmaker. He did it almost all by himself. Like he was Yeah, editing for like, three years and and then he got the Oscar which was just like, Oh my God when I saw

Jason Van Genderen 55:58
I mean, that is the ultimate indie film hustle searching for sugar. And this this guy made it happen. incredible story made with with really scarce resources. Yeah. Beautiful.

Alex Ferrari 56:07
What's the other one that just came out a few years ago. Is it the Walk walk the line? About Oh, what do you want to talk about? The one that the guy across the Twin Towers? Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah. Type rope. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. What an amazing documentary. I fell in love with that guy. He's crazy. I love him. Alright, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. The third one,

Jason Van Genderen 56:29
I got a third one for you. And that's a filmmaker called Brian hurt slinger. And in his documentary as my date with Drew, came out, and I remember that I've seen that movie. Yeah, when he went about making it

Alex Ferrari 56:44
When the stalker laws were a little less back then apparently. But he wanted. He wanted to make he wanted to date with Drew Barrymore. And he made a whole documentary about it.

Jason Van Genderen 56:54
In 30 days, incredible, just the ultimate challenge. How can you make a film in 30 days, he didn't even own a camera. That was an incredible thing. He and his two friends had to go and beg, borrow and steal a camera on a credit card, which I had to be able to get a refund on within 30 days, that was the Prime Minister making a film rather than using a window to make 30 days ago and find a date with Drew Barrymore. And I think Rotten Tomatoes actually called it the love it or hate it's stalker artsy. Like it was. Like I said, you probably could not make that film in 2018. But back in 2004, it was just it's one of those heartwarming, very simply made films, the aesthetics in a very pure, very basic, but super sweet story and as a documentary filmmaker, so much hope in there for filmmaking story with minimal means.

Alex Ferrari 57:41
So those are some great choices, my friend great choices. Now where can people find you in the work you do?

Jason Van Genderen 57:49
Look, probably the best place would be on Facebook to look up film breaker, film breaker, that's the page where I've been sharing most of my, my knowledge, bombs and work of late. We've got a few influences on there. Contributing basically it's a space where people who want to learn how to make films with their smartphones can be tooled up can be can be inspired. And we we set that up in March this year with an aim of finding 10,000 people around the world that had a similar mindset. And we're now up to just over 30,000. So yeah, film breaker on Facebook is definitely the place to connect, to stay in touch with what we're making. And yeah, check out our work.

Alex Ferrari 58:32
Awesome, man. Thank you, Jason, again, so much. This has been an amazing interview, amazing conversation. And I really do hope it inspires people out there in the tribe and whoever is listening to this to get out there and just go tell their story man with doesn't matter what you could you have the power in your hands.

Jason Van Genderen 58:51
Completely Alex wonderful being on the show. Thanks so much for the opportunity. And I really appreciate it.

Alex Ferrari 58:56
I want to thank Jason again for being on the show, man. Thank you for those knowledge bombs Jason. And guys, I'm telling you it is in the power of your hands. Don't let the lack of big movie gear stop you. You can make your movie you can make your short you can make your feature you can make your series with an iPhone with an Android phone. They are so so so powerful, I would have killed to have something like this when I was coming up in the business to just even practice with, let alone to take it to the next level and actually shoot professional projects with. So thanks again, Jason for the inspiration if you want to get links to Jason's work, what he's doing, as well as links to the movie tangerine and our interview with Shaun Baker, and also a link to the video podcast of this. Head over to indiefilmhustle.com/284 and if you haven't already, please head over to indiefilmhustle.tv check out what we're doing. It is amazing. The tribe is growing their daily. So thank you again so much for the support and I got such big stuff coming for you guys in the month. To come so thanks again for everything and I hope this episode was of service to you guys on your filmmaking journey. And as always keep that also going, keep that dream alive, and I'll talk to you soon.