IFH 240: How to Work the Film & Television Markets with Heather Hale

Welcome to the indie film hustle podcast episode number 240. Don’t let your circumstances control you you change your circumstances Jackie Chan. Podcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It’s the indie film hustle podcast where we show you how to survive and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film.

And here’s your host Alex Ferrari welcome to film us to another episode of the indie film also podcast. I am your humble host Alex Ferrari. Today’s episode is brought to you by Black Box black box is a new platform and community. That is all about Financial Freedom for filmmakers like you. If you join block box, you will be transformed from being a worker to being a maker of your own content and you’ll be making steady passive income from the global market Black Box currently allows you to upload your stock footage once get it too many Global agencies and then allows you to share that passive income stream with your collaborators, whether you want to submit old footage that’s been sitting around in your hard drives or create brand new content black box is for you.

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Just go to Studio unknown today’s guest is Heather. She is the author of how to work the film and television markets and it’s so important if you are. To sell your movie independently and you are an independent filmmaker to understand the film and television markets. And AFM is one of them they can fill Market is another one and we talk about all the other not only fill markets but television markets as well.

A lot of filmmakers are not just creating independent films, but they’re also creating independent television series and streaming series and these television markets are where you go to sell those as well. So Heather literally wrote the book on it and how to maneuver Within These markets. And I sit down and really dig in and and beat her up a little bit about what we need to know about the markets and just dig in to get as much information as I could out of her for this episode.

So without any further Ado, please enjoy my conversation with Heather hail. I like to welcome to the show Heather. Thank you so much for being on the show Heather. Um, it’s my honor thanks for having me Alex. So before we get into it, I really want to know how did you get into this? Crazy business?

Oh gosh, people always ask your break-in story and you probably know well as anyone we all have like five because many times do we have to break back in and you know, you can never yes on your laurels. And so I don’t even know which one you know, the first one let’s just start with a very beginning.

I don’t even know what the first one is. I will say the um, Who knows but what most people look at is my break-in was the courage to love which was a lifetime original movie and the speed version to that was my aunt passed away. So this is a total Hollywood Story So with you know dog groomers and hairdressers.

Um, my aunt passed away my parents became Executives of her trust and that we became, uh, we had to handle a townhouse in Pasadena. And foolishly, I didn’t grab it because you know, I wanted to live in LA not Pasadena and um, obviously I’m such an idiot. I thought I would take it ran. I’m an idiot.

I appreciate that now gorgeous Garden jacuzzi, like I’m an idiot. Okay, we’ve established. I’m an idiot. So anyway, we became Executives or trust and my parents couldn’t afford to Debt Service that and their own mortgage and all that. So we had to rent it out and we had to rent it out. And so we’re literally like.

Packing up the garage of a woman who never moved in 40 some odd years while we’re grieving while we’re dealing with the wake and all of that while there’s a moving truck with the other people moving in it was that crazy. So as I’m moving bankers boxes out and the new renters are moving bankers boxes in they one of the wife says.

Hey, I’ve got a great idea for that would make a terrific movie. I understand you’re a screenwriter and how many times have we all heard that like every hey I have an idea you do all the work and you use all your relationships and resources and we’ll split the profits and probably I’ll sue you for stealing it like it’s just never moves out, but I sat her down and I said, okay like I don’t want to do this, but let’s do it.

Because I’m an idiot we’ve established and we literally sat there with them plate of brownies and ice tea and I handed her a legal pad of paper and a pen and I said, let’s write a deal memo and I wanted in your handwriting so we can’t say you didn’t know what this was and we wrote out this deal memo and I was really careful.

She claimed that her son was Vanessa Williams music producer and how many times have we? I can get it to so and so I can do this. Yes. I had her put you know, my name is XYZ Heather is XYZ. My son is Vanessa Williams music producer and she put his name in there and I will get this script to the Vanessa Williams.

Like that’s that that piece. Was what made me do it and so then I told her I would Mentor her and help her and support her and she wanted to write it and I was just going to help her as a friend from the sidelines and so over the next three months. I read and read on the research. Junkie, you know most writers are very streeters.

So I knew everything about New Orleans and the 1830s and this woman is amazing first, um African-American none ordained by the Catholic Church as a really powerful story. And over the three months she wrote back and faxed me. This tells you how old it right me. That’s me like five pages describing a room.

And that’s as much as she had done in three months and she begged the Heather. Can you please write this and I said, okay and so I wrote this outline and we got the outline to Vanessa Williams. She kept her word. She was good to her word. And then Vanessa Williams got it too. Uh, Emily. Oh gosh Gershon at William Morris at the time.

Emily called me. We had sent her a five page outline which bear in mind was really well researched. It was historically accurate adaptation as powerful story and we sent it to her and my associate. In her Zeal and enthusiasm. I don’t want to say lied but eagerly told her wait till you read the script.

It’s fantastic. And of course there was no script of course, right? It’s just an outline just to five page treatment of what the beat outline was really well written and in Crows really really engaging of what we were gonna do sure. And so I get a call from Emily Gerson Saenz who says I understand the script.

No, I didn’t get a call. I was told Emily wants to see the script. She and Vanessa are going to be the can film festival in 10 days. So it could you send it to him sure and there it was a God moment, and I literally picked up the phone before I had time to think and quit my job. Wow, and I told my boyfriend I’m not leaving this computer until I have that script done.

Like this is my break. It was scary as all get-out and I called Emily which was very terrifying like one of the first people I’ve ever called was like the head of William Morris who’s waiting for a script that’s not written from me and I gently said. So How firm is that? They is that deadline she goes she goes.

Oh bless her heart. Let’s hurt. Oh honey. It’s not from not firm at all. I I love the project Vanessa loves the project and Vanessa and I are going to be in can at the same time loving the project. So I’m not sure when that. Will occur again when the two of us will be together interested in your project at that moment we will be and so I went okay.

Thanks. I got the phone and then I feel like I didn’t have 10 days. I had nine because I had to FedEx it I gotta get so I literally wrote and wrote and wrote and then I would hit print. Fall asleep. My boyfriend would read I had girlfriends people writers group to I would like email them the 12 pages.

I had written. I would email them the 17 Pages. I’d written I I would sleep and then I would wake up and I get back at it and I would put in people’s notes fix all the titles you to cranking so I had literally copied the treatment through it into final draft first script. I’d ever written and just went for it and it got set up.

And an air it was a 5 and 1/2 million dollar feature on Lifetime in 2000 and then you know, I’d break in all over again, but let’s call that my break. Wow. That’s uh, that was the most passive aggressive way of saying the deadline is the deadline right? But but good for her because it was true. No, and you know what and you know what?

Yeah, but that description that for people listening that that description of how she. She spoke to you beautiful is exactly how people in La talk in those positions. They’ll they’ll generally everything know generally never say no they’re generally never like they are there are the you know, the Ari Gold’s of the world, uh, there are but but a lot of them will do this kind of passive-aggressive.

Yeah, and it’s obviously an art form. It’s an art. It’s like on my vision board to be unflappable. And if you if you’ve listened to Shonda Rhimes is latest book I listen to it on audio tape. I love to listen to like Tina Fey Amy Schumer all their books Andy Kalin on when they narrate on their audio books.

But um, so listening to Shonda Rhimes, which was awesome. I you know, she coined the word badassery. She said, you know, they say, it’s not a word unless it’s an addiction Airy, but in my Microsoft Word, I right clicked and added it to my dictionary. It’s a. So I have like. Unflappable badassery on my vision board.

That’s my goal is to be able to not custom swear not raise my voice not lose my temper, but say so eloquently and maybe it’s passive aggressive but it is an art form exactly what you mean and still be smiling and looked like you’re being courteous and such a team player when you’re really laying down the bottom line and that is an art form and this yeah without question so so let’s talk about.

Um markets Phil markets television markets. That’s one of your expertise is we can all started there right? Because I had to get it to can to get the cat exactly. So can you explain to the audience? Um, What the difference is between film festivals and film markets? Sure. I think that’s actually one of the least understood and even people who have been in the business forever because you’ll have people say it’s funny.

I never know whether it’s can or con because I get corrected no matter how I said someone’s going to correct me. So, um, they’ll say they’re going to can. But are they going to the Festival of the market? Because the festival in the market are on opposite sides of the croisette, you know this Promenade and they’re going on at the exact same time and people can fly around the world and realize that they have credentials they’ve paid two or three thousand dollars in here and there at the festival when they meant to be at the market.

Oh my God, can you and everybody they want or or worse? I mean at least that you can probably jerry-rigged. What if you’re in the wrong City at the wrong week go to the Berlin, you know, I meant to go to the European film market and you ended up at Berlin at you know, and or at the different the TV markets in you’re in the wrong week everybody you paid three thousand or five thousand to go see is not even there.

And yeah, so I think it’s really important. So so so real clearly like festivals we were talkin about Sundance before we went live fast. If you think of show business you can think of the festival’s as the show and markets as the business of the entertainment industry analogy because festivals are open to the public.

Usually they’re all about audience enjoyment. They’re all about the craft. They celebrate the love of the art. It can be about a specific genre or Locale and it’s all about community. So film fans and TV lovers from the public can come and enjoy premieres fun parties. They can vote, you know, especially for audience Awards, but these competitions are curated by taste-making Gatekeepers and they award prizes based on their judgment of quality and the audience response and critical.

Is what everybody’s looking for and that’s what can launch these surprise breakout hits or Dash the hopes of what everyone thought was going to be a winner. And as you know, there are no prizes at markets. The only prize is a check. There’s no prizes. Right and the Press are often blocked. From the screenings because they don’t want spoilers leaked.

So markets are the entertainment industry’s trade shows and like everything else in Show Business. They tend to be more glamorous faster paced and more intimidating than any other business sector. And so these markets getting on the market floor is typically restricted to accredited industry professional.

So you have to have bought a badge. You have to be a player to get on that floor and then those. Or content the film and television things you might have seen shown at film festivals or television festivals are what is bought and sold. Um, business-to-business and then turn around and parlayed to the to the wider public.

So there is this symbiotic relationship between the two circuits. So it’s possible that a film that does fantastic at Sundance gets picked up by a distributor and is then sold internationally like a cute little Little Miss Sunshine is bought at Sundance and then they turn around and sell it to um, Europe European film market.

So um, and then the same the same thing can be. First maybe a product does really well at a market and they choose to use the film festival platform as their promotional marketing to create some audience awareness and create Buzz. So at Sundance every year every year Toronto Midnight Madness, you named it.

So one of the things I think that helps put things in perspective is the size and scope of the material presented. So if you look at like a typical can film festival. There’s like 21 films that are in competition officially and then right across the Promenade is Le Marche to film which is the can film market and there’s 3000 3500 films at the market.

So that shows you the size and scope because what’s being sold at the market or shown or screen or viewed is literally the entire Year’s inventory and a backlog of the year before. So it’s a good year to three years worth of assets that are competing in this incredible den of noise to try to make a blip on the radar for anyone to notice you like it.

The one of the most humbling experiences ever is to walk on a market floor with your little one sheet right and think my poor, baby. And I will tell you kicks you in the teeth and says is your logline strong enough is your pitch like you’re competing with George Clooney on the market floor looking for money.

Right? Like that’s there. I mean you don’t normally run into them, but they are they’re raising money. And so your materials have to be so not just slick and professional but the concepts and the execution have to be so viscerally grabbing. That someone’s willing to risk money on them. And so it really does make you take a step back and check yourself that nobody cares about your hopes and dreams and aspirations.

They care about are you bringing them something they can make money off of can you talk a little bit? Can you name a few of the big markets that people should look out for? Well, of course the can the Le Marche de film is the can Market. The European film Market is probably the second largest now the Americans will Market is the third and then and then there’s there’s a ton of others.

There’s a Hong Kong film art. There’s um, uh the Asian film Mark there’s Tiff calm and then Thomas or the Latin American one, but another thing that’s kind of bubbled up which I think is really fascinating. Helpful for independent filmmakers is you have the Phil markets over here and you have the film or do you have the film and TV markets over here and you have film and TV festivals?

Oh and for the just real quickly for TV markets you have nap P which is the National Association of television program Executives. You have real screen. You have kids screen again. The Hong Kong film art is both you have the mips we call them the mips sweet. So there’s formats. And then you have like, uh nap in Europe.

There’s just a ton Bogota has one. But in between, you know, you’ve seen I’m sure that the independent film Arena that was such at the golden era in the 1970s. People are talkin about the Renaissance that we’re seeing in the Golden Era of Television that we’re seeing which is really kind of the shift.

Of independent filmmaking going to television because we have convergence of film and TV where the what we call over the top television Amazon Netflix Hulu these you know, which are almost telcos right there. They’re almost isps that are offering this, you know, all the issues of net neutrality, but that that.

Is an opportunity for them to create these Victor create content and deliver content. So in the Middle where the independent filmmaker can often get lost because the studios are doing the huge Blockbusters and then networks are doing their channels. What’s bubbling up is this co-production Market scene and that’s where things like Cinema and Rotterdam and the Berlin Market which is.

Over like while the European film Market is going on. And while the Berlin Film Festival is going on. They kind of seamlessly overlap with the Berlin co-production Market, which is where Independent Producers can find financing where they can find production Partners where they can find Distributors willing to see projects that are Works in progress.

And so here’s another difference between film festivals and Mark. People will tell you like, you know, as a screenwriter never send your script out until it’s just kick ass as good as it could possibly be right. That’s okay. So with films they tell you never to submit to a festival until it’s perfect, right because it’s being judged.

So a lot of people Miss perceive that and come over to the market space and say, oh I can’t show it to them. I can’t do this because it’s a market. Well, they’re customed. To seeing things with the holes and placeholders and we’re gonna do the specs on this and you know, they’ve even done studies where people had missing scenes or animation.

They didn’t even know that the animation wasn’t there because they were so caught up emotionally in the moment. So a market there. They’re happy to see accountant real for a possible reality show host or a character that we’re going to build a world around in their milieu their custom to seeing like let’s say you’re shooting an independent film and you’re not going to be ready by the market but your opening sequence is awesome.

You just show that as your Sizzle reel or trailer or just some selected scenes and at the market they’re professionals used to sing products in every stage of development. So that’s yet another. Difference that people, you know will come with the wrong misperceptions that limit their opportunities now who should have ten markets in general as far as filmmakers are concerned.

Like should it be at what level of of the process should they go? Well, I think it depends on what your goals are and what your product is. So you will see on the nap P floor or you know mipcom TV the TV markets people who are not in the industry. At all who might have a Sizzle reel on themselves often or um an idea or a concept and they’re trying to sell a game show.

They’re trying to sell a reality show. They’re trying to sell some nonfiction thing like Adam ruins everything, you know some sort and edutainment type product and. Even if they all they have is a one sheet. That’s a good one sheet and a good concept. They can literally, you know, buy a badge and go pitch almost door-to-door, you know, they’re going sweet too sweet.

That’s another thing, you know this but maybe your listeners don’t you look at something like the AFM at the Loews Hotel in Santa Monica. They literally move every bed out of every room. And every sweet becomes a sales office, so some Market floors have booths like a trade show where you know, you go from Booth to Booth to booth on a market floor map.

He has these towers where you go up to the sweets. And again, they’ve moved the beds out. So you walk in and there’s the table and chairs and there could even be Cubbies set up with offices for receptionist in all that actually at the Loews Hotel. I was one of two people sleeping there. During the FN which was you talk about The Shining like step out into an empty hotel and you’re the I’m not even like there’s no room service.

There’s nobody there right just close down it’s surreal. So that’s I think um, so anyway to answer your question who go. So if you’re a director you want to go over to festivals because that’s where they’re celebrating you, um at the markets it’s largely producers. So you might be a writer producer director producer.

So if you’re wearing a producer hat and you’re trying to raise money or you’re trying to initiate distribution interest that’s a really good place to be another way. A lot of producers can use markets that they may not be aware of is. Not on the first few days, but on the last couple of days. You can go in with your really great one sheet or Sizzle reel and when the Distributors are have gone through the bulk of their meetings because remember they’ve paid 30,000 probably to be there.

So you show up selling them and they’ve paid a ton of money to sell your in their way. You’re in our way. But the last few days they are thinking about the next market and they’re trying to build relationships as well and the cocktail parties are all great opportunities for this but let’s say you come in and you’ve.

You’re in the film Project. You got a million dollar project and you have a hit list of 10 stars that you think are really good. It’s really a good idea to take that simple bulleted list. Don’t bore them. Just go in here. So maybe one sheet. Here’s my logline. These are the ten Stars. I’m thinking of and you might be blown away where they say.

Um, this person’s not Marquee value. This person will never get distribution. I like this person. This person is really good and someone on that list you might not be aware is really huge in the block or the mint the new meant, you know, Might be something that you weren’t aware was accompany a person who would really attract the Chinese market, you know, I’m always trying to think of the other markets or they may say, oh, I like all of these eight mafioso guys these character actors and they’re all really good.

Have you thought about XYZ and they add some names to your list and that is priceless information because and they may tell you look if you get anyone. These people off this List come back to me and we’ll talk about a distribution that may not be a distribution commitment because you know, it’s hard to say.

Yes, I will distribute your film when it’s an unknown commodity. Of course, it’s not in the can so if it’s I mean that’s the thing is your your film is probably never worth more than when it’s nothing yet to a certain extent. You’re right, right? Everyone can imagine in their minds eye the very best it could possibly be but a lot of times also to you.

Do you agree that depending on the cast? Yeah, if the cast is big enough, um, there’ll be commitments to distribute then in there purely because they know if you can afford Nicolas Cage, yes, you’re the Project’s gonna be at at least a somewhat at a benchmark that I know I could sell because.

You’re not gonna hire Nicolas Cage and do a 20 thousand dollar movie. Right? Well, I will yes, I agree but I will say that there’s two parts to that sure. Um one part is that if you get Nicholas Cage like I got Vanessa Williams sure, it’s not. You getting the money. It’s probably Nicholas Cage or Nicolas Cage is contacts resources referrals.

So one of the things I suggest people do is make their hit list for who they want as their stars or lead actors and look and see who’s got a production company and go to the production company of the star you want and let them be partners with you because now they’re that much more financially incentivized to come on board and be a real partner.

And then that’s when the ball starts rolling, you know, my dad always used to say that the most precious asset in Hollywood is momentum. Its momentum, you know and it’s traction getting people to have it’s making your enthusiasm contagious so that you can get some traction so that you can create some men and momentum because you can work for 10 years on a project and blow dust off of it.

And if you get the right people to shine their light man things happen fast, you know that. The overnight success. So I think that is a huge part of it. And then the other part I will say is a lot of times people make their hit list and they’re Hit The Hit List reveals a lot about you. If you have Tom Cruise and Meryl Streep on your Hit List, they exactly they may be very polite because they are so polite but they’re laughing at your neophyte ISM, right because it’s so delusional, but if you come in with.

Some really amazing actors from say Breaking Bad or you know what? I mean, like obtainable. Yeah, if you mentioned their name at your family holiday. No one else at the table who’s not in the business will know who you’re talkin about. Or maybe you show them their picture and they go. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I know that guy but the differences with a distributor, they know that the caliber like David Morris if you remember if you know who he is. He was in The Green Mile. He’s a phantom or you know right now in the end the good doctor and he was in Bates Motel so Freddie Highmore at a Holiday.

Function the average person not in the business Michael. I don’t know who that is. Will do you watch the good doctor? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I do. Okay, that’s about or rush August Rush. I he deserves a Lifetime Achievement Award already. I love him. But what I would say is that when you come to a distributor with someone like that they may not be.

You know, uh Cinema Marquee value that he can open a movie by himself, of course, but what that tells the distributor is the caliber of acting is going to attract other. Very strong actors. It’s going to attract good directors. It’s going to attract people who are going to that’s going to raise the bar of their of their work so that so if you came with a feels like in the old days, you needed your Sylvester Stallone or and damn to sell DVDs in Asia sure, but it’s changing its changing a lot.

So now the mass. You know of YouTube competition its quality that rises up and so having a good concept. Well written well executed with really good Stars. I think our star culture while it’s still hugely important you look at any advertisement. It’s all about celebrity, but it’s changing because the fragmentation of the dial and what the internet has done to revolutionize our business.

So you mean Steven Seagal versus Mike Tyson’s gonna have problems. If they’re fighting that was that was the most AFM FM movie this yeah, you remember when it was a couple Emmys ago where they put all the YouTube stars on the red carpet. No, I didn’t. Okay. This was a couple of years ago and they took all these YouTube stars with millions of followers and they thought oh, we’re going to tap into their Zeitgeist and what you realize is.

Asking questions on a red carpet is a skill set that Ryan Seacrest and the people who’ve earned the right and they’re like they didn’t know who they were talkin to. They were disrespectful and they thought that their 15 minutes of fame was going to carry them on red carpet and people forget. This is a business right?

And so I think it’s fine to stunt cast maybe one. YouTube’s 11 if you are a YouTube celebrity then cool that’s you but make sure you populate that cast with rock-solid actors around you because everyone in the business can see through a Fame run and it’s getting and it’s getting like before it was all about how many followers you have and I have to a certain extent a lot of casting decisions now are made on social media if the if there’s two actors of equal caliber.

Um equal credits that’s assuming they’re equal caliber in Equal Credit. Exactly. It’s not usually that case not but if you assume that there, you know at the same playing field. Yeah, I’m gonna go with the one that has the bigger social following absolutely, but they also have ways of assessing your.

Digital footprint like I have a um a widget in line when I look on Twitter. I know how many of your followers are fake. I mean you bought and that’s around before. Yeah and a huge thing is your engagement. Like are you proceed to authentic in your engagement with a legit tribe? Right? You know, we have our our mutual friend Richard Botto the hour.

Stage 32 sure his crowdsourcing for filmmakers book is all about that. Like it’s being authentic to a community. So I think it’s really important that people like it’s really important to have a social media following and a social media presence and be authentic but it’s like anything else, you know, it’s the quality of how you do it.

You can’t just buy a million followers and slap-up promotional stuff. Because first of all those million followers probably aren’t even real and don’t care. So they’re not going to leave in droves. But the real people are if all you ever do is throw up, you know jpegs of your book that you’re selling right a perfect example, I always use is there’s this filmmaker that I was working with on a project years ago and they spent I’m gonna say this but like about four or five thousand dollars buying yep of their trailer.

Yeah. Um, And nothing and we all know it right. So but they thought the like and I think they got I think it got up to about a million and half 2 million. Views that they spent money all spent. Yeah, nothing organic. No interaction know anyting but they were touting that to Distributors, like look we’ve gotten two million hits on our trailer give us money for our movie.

There’s an audience out there for it. Yeah, and that might have worked in 1995 exactly but not today and people can definitely tell when it’s look it’s not hard to find out if you’re if they’re fake. You just have to look at the engagement and even the engagement they’re trying to fake now and you it’s still so difficult to fake real engagement.

Yeah, I know someone a very high-profile author producer TV person. So and they’ve passed away and they were very beloved. So I won’t throw them under the bus because that would be disrespectful true, but they hired friends of mine. To go online into the chat rooms and take on to this was way back in the day.

So it is not new you said? Yeah yet take on personas. So they would have three four five different personas each and get into debates and arguments with themselves. Right like and be trolls and jerks and you know, so that other people would jump in and then they’d get out of that chat room and go start somewhere else so that people there was Buzz and engagement but I think that um, you know, first of all people are really Savvy to that now and then the flip side of that is too bad because the person who really busts their tail to get a million or two million followers legitimately and then goes to Bamboo about the marketplace now, everybody’s pretty jaded and even if you earn.

And spent 15 years creating that following that like, yeah. Yeah, but that that comes back to the quality of the content and the material, you know, and also and also and I know we’re going on a tangent with social media, but it’s important in regards to what we’re doing is also the the proof is in the pudding, you know, like yeah, you know, I’ll tell you right really quickly if you’re real or not purely by like do a post.

Yeah do a post and we’ll see how many retweets they get or how many reactions they get and see how much traffic I can generate off of it something that’s heading too much. I’ll tell you in a second. Like here you go boom, you know, someone people find people who are actually real and authentic.

Yeah gravitate to Absolutely. I’ll tell you something beyond the social media is also your assets your marketing asset. So I help people create pitch packages Sizzle reel practice their pitch and all that and I’ve been a judge at you know, nappies player tv player contest bunch of bunch of things.

Yeah forever. So one of them at one market and again, I don’t want to you know hurt anyone’s reputation on just share the spirit of the story. This gal came in and she was competing and she um, the first wrap everything were three rounds and the first round was to pitch verbally. And so this girl came in and pitched her heart out on I think it was a mafia comedy like a sitcom.

She was so hysterical. We were like wiping tears. Well, I think there were eight or 12. I don’t know several judges. I don’t remember how many judges about eight. Let’s say, but we were laughing literally slapping our needs wiping away tears cracking up she had us eating out of her hand and we loved her we loved her project.

We loved everything. Her so then she made it to the second round and in the second round she brought in her Sizzle reel and in her Sizzle. She had spent two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. No and she had I don’t know if it was friends or I don’t know who these actors were but in this sizzle.

The production value was awful. The timing was awful. The acting was awful. The costumes were awful and 250 250 that is not the only time I’ve seen that I’ve seen people do better with zero budget than 250. I’ve seen lots of bad how I’m just figuring out how do you spend a quarter of a million dollars on a Sizzle reel?

Like how do you do? It happens all the time my God. So because companies want to get paid and they I think prey on delusions. So so what happened was and I’m proud of myself. I’m not bragging but just it’s hard to find people who will tell the truth in Hollywood and I do always and get in trouble all the time.

So I will say him credit when it helps so she was going to get knocked out. And I spoke up in the in the voting round with her in the room and said I gotta tell you I said I’m gonna point out the elephant in the room because everybody was giving her feedback on the sizzle reel. Yeah, and I said to her to end the fellow judges I said look that’s is a real.

Unfortunately. You have wasted $250,000, you know in her face had she was almost in tears, you know should be. She was almost in tears because everybody was ripping the sizzle reel to Shaq shreds and she’s going to get knocked out of the contest and she had spent all this money and I said look I said I’m gonna vote to put you through on the caveat that you pitch verbally again because you had a you had us imagining your vision and this Sizzle reel.

Is going to kill you. So you need to never show it anyone again ever. I don’t care how much it cost. I don’t care how much blood tears went into it. It’s gonna shoot you in the foot. It’s an albatraoz to your project Let It Go consider it a mistake and and she everybody changed their vote. And we put her through and she pitched verbally and she did she didn’t win but she was like number two or number three and she was really grateful and I I mean it’s heartbreaking to tell someone that but it’s true.

Oh, you got to you’ve got to tell truth and it’s not even Up For Debate. It was just like look, this was horrendous. You’re hurting yourself by to acknowledge how fantastic she did without even a piece of paper. And that that shows the Integrity of the idea her passion her personality her ownership and authenticity with that material as the writer.

She had earned the right to stand up and bolus over and it was so well executed on the page. It is not her fault that the collaborators didn’t rise to the occasion and she can find other collaborators because she owns the intellectual property. It’s her baby. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, um, how um, how should someone with.

Digital series approach a television market in today’s world because now as you said everything’s going towards television. Yeah, how should someone should they do a pilot? Should they just come in with the idea should they do have a full series produced? What do you what’s your suggestion? Well, I think all of those, you know, it’s like Hollywood.

How do you break into Hollywood? Well, let’s give you the two thousand ways. We all know friends who’ve done it. You know it there’s no right or wrong. I will say they’re probably some quicker Avenues than others. And then the minute you say, this is the way you do it. Then there’s some breakout Blair Witch success that you know, it’s the stuff that happens Angry Orange.

I don’t know if you’re familiar with that. I mean I there’s a ton of examples of stuff but one way. They do watch just as we were talking about earlier with in social engagement on there are people who put up on Twitter accounts that are in The Voice or the point of view of one of their characters and then voice and.

I think how things um about my daughter eight rules about my daughter got done was started off a Twitter feed, you know, it was that such a unique authentic voice. So, um coming up with ways to select I think was angry orange was little two-minute thing. That was an orange literally an orange Marquee face drawn on it.

He’s done very well. Yeah, so they were like 30 second two minutes things, but they were so freaking funny. They went viral. You know, I forget who it was, uh, pretty famous gal. I should remember her name, but she said viral is not a business plan like Sundance is not a distribution plan Sundance is not a distribution.

That’s like saying I’m gonna buy a lottery ticket. Yes, somebody somebody who buys a ticket will win but your odds like that’s not the business plan. Go ahead. Throw the penny in the I’m quitting my job today because my next year, I’m covered because I’m gonna do this scratch-off. Exactly. Yeah, so I mean I throw pennies and fountains I’m all about superstitious little rituals cool.

Do it by your lottery tickets. I all the more power to you. But and call me if you win, please. Please call that five projects. Yeah. Yeah, so but some of the things they can do one, of course if you’re like, I judged the Marseille web Fest, uh several years back and that was fascinating because you know, Josh Gad.

Yeah, of course. Okay, Josh Gad one. Oh, yeah. Yeah Olaf and Beauty and the Beast but he also had 1600 Penn if you remember that it was a short-lived Series. So right before with Dharma the girl who played Dharma and Dharma Greg right before that, um, he was submitted into the Marseille web vest and it was me and I think the Warner Brothers digital VP bunch of really cool people.

So we were you know sequestered in a room for 12 hours watching nothing but websites went up web series one after another and that were people who had fantastic business plans and ancillary marketing and Merchandising and it was so well like sales and marketing 101 like or not even that phds and sales and marketing.

But we weren’t engaged by their content. So what difference did it make right and then you had people who had years of seasons and Seasons like hundreds of episodes. And then you had Josh Gad with like two little three minutes sketches that were practically SNL and again, we’re in hysterics. So I think it comes down to the Quality.

So if you have let’s say you have a web series that’s won some awards. Don’t expect someone to watch Eight Episodes of it grab the. You know 30 seconds or 2 minutes of the very very very best footage and don’t feel like it needs to be five minutes or seven minutes or any of that if it’s if you have.

A really good two minutes. That’s a beginning middle and end and there’s a little bit of week stuff when it out cut it out cut it out cut it out. If it is not very very very best cream of the crop. You know, they say Shakespeare threw away 95% of his stuff. I don’t know how anyone knows that but you know, I believe it right sure and I would love to be in that trash can exactly.

But that’s what I’m saying. You got to throw away kill your babies Kill Your Darlings and then only take the cream of the crop and then that tease, you know, you sell the sizzle not the steak you want to elicit their interest and Intrigue them to want more and you may not show them more. You make it into a room.

They’re really engaged. They have their different ideas and you go in their Direction because he who has the gold wins. Don’t feel like you owe it to the material to bring in your old crap that they might not what find what tickle them because it might be different. Like what Spike TV is interested in is going to be quite different than what the Sci-Fi channel is interested in.

Exactly. And then and that’s a problem for a lot of creators is that they spent so much time so much money creating something they want to show it all exactly. It’s and you just like baby pictures. Okay, right. It’s your baby. You want to show baby pictures to everybody? I try not to do that. But uh, but every once in a while this for, you know, exactly but at the end of the day, you’ve got it.

Take off your creator how to put on your business put on your marketing hat and go. Okay what I got to look at this with clean eyes, and if you can’t have someone who can do it for you and diddle your YouTube channel. Maybe you have a YouTube channel that’s got all of that on there. But you have a branded YouTube channel.

That only has the best of the best that represents the show, which is you know, you think of what you put on social media, especially what you’re putting on that is projecting to the industry is your 24/7 shingle. Put crap out there. And if you do like hide it in a way that only friends and family can see it.

But if you’re going to put it out there on your website anywhere, you know, it’s way better to have three great two-minute clips than something that’s you know, really two hours of bad. That’s what they say. The greatest sin in Hollywood is to be boring. Yes, and there has been plenty of that going on at the movie theaters lately.

Yeah, and on the market floors and at the festivals and co-production markets, you know, I used to joke that you know, the perfume of Hollywood is desperation. Oh God, that’s a great line and it’s so true. Yeah and you and and and because I used to wear that uh, that only have all worn it we’ve all to desperation.

Yeah, and the purse and the deodorant like it comes out its the be of Hollywood is desperation. Also, I mean it is something that you can smell on someone. Yeah so fast into the room into a ballroom you can smell and and I used to I used to just just it would around spring out of me like uh, what’s-his-name from Charlie Brown the guy who’s always dirty.

Yeah, he was just always walk. Yeah, it was around me all the time. Yeah, I would meet someone when I first got here. I would meet someone, you know at another level higher level or just a place that I could and I’d be like how you doing it and you would just go after them and they could just be like, okay, he’s that and that would be the end of it and I happened to me a bunch of times until I finally.

I don’t know how I did it. But naturally I just stopped it and became more giving and more of service the people I meet trying to be and that I think is the is the to me networking is the highest form of service. It’s what do they need? How can I help them? And you hope that by the time it pays forward 10 times somewhere.

It comes around back to you, right? But you know when you’re trying to intentionally Network. You know, one of the most prudent things is to ask them about them and their projects because and that’s the thing you have to be careful of with you is because when someone asks a writer about their project, oh no.

Right. We love our babies. We want to talk about them. That’s all we want to talk about. So you really are it’s kind of like being on a first blind date after a divorce. You don’t really want to talk about your ex. Right? So you want to listen and ask questions and if the conversation comes back around to you be locked and loaded with a silver bowl.

That’s really quick and easy and kills right? But don’t but don’t walk up with that bullet in hand. Just yet. Don’t shoot it off the or the the machine gun. Yes, Silver Bullet. I it’s it’s it’s just so funny and I meet and I was my next question was gonna be about networking. Um, and I think we’re on that topic now, but like sometimes I’ll be speaking and you know, people will come up and they’ll just.

They’re just kind of like you can tell that they’re just wanting to their energy suckers even successful people right Just Energy suckers. They just want to be a vampire. They just want to see from you and you know you as you get older and you’ve been in the business long enough, you become attuned to that that frequency very quickly your hair goes on end as they come up as they approach and you can you can yeah.

It’s. Oh desperation. There’s the owner desperation. There’s the O of BS totally, you know, I’m not trying to do anything, but I’m just trying to impress you because I’ve done this this and this I know this and I could definitely get your project that this person because I’ll cut their hair. I’ll tell you two quick little stories about that.

I was um, I you know, I’m not a vain person. You know, we all get beat up so much. I guess you just don’t have time or energy to be vain. You just got workin hard not on this side of the camera at least. Yeah. Yeah, so I was in an event of the women’s event and I was talkin to a group of women and you know, I’m a I’m a first-time a I was the first time director.

I think I’ve done two things now, but you know, I’m really still a rookie. I really am trying to break in as a director. So I was at this event and I have done I had directed. A million-dollar feature which on the one hand anyone in the business knows like Soup To Nuts that is that’s like an ultramarathon series like that.

It’s a huge accomplishment whether it made any money or not it got in the can and it got picked up by two Distributors. It was at the AFM and success right gives at Walmart Best Buy. Okay. So who cares if his any good or made any money like that? Just the fact that we got from point to point and I did not die or kill anybody, right?

So and it had meatloaf and Asthma and Eddie Furlong, so I’m at this event and I’m feeling like simultaneously proud and scared shitless and insecure and blah blah blah and these girls are talkin about all the stuff they’ve directed and they’re posing and dropping names and being all we all this. So I’m just sitting listening because I really need to network and I really need to learn a lot more and I need to expand my horizons blah blah blah blah well, I can our listening to them give all sorts of advice and tell me what I should do.

It comes around that one of them entire directing was a PSA had done a short film. So I sat there and not that I’m all that. But I sat there respectfully listening to all and then when they asked me what I had done which like the event was almost over and I was like, oh, you know just a million-dollar feature with meat loaf and and then I walked away because they like seriously could air lat like I sat here and they they had done a free public service announcement for 30 seconds.

And that was what they directed. Sure. The flip side of that I was going to say is when people are posing. You know, if you have to get a catcher’s mitt out to catch the names that they draw odds are they’re full of it. And if you call them out on it old have two stories. I had a guy who told me and I won’t say who he is because he’s kind of a power player, but he told me he uh, it’ll be too obvious.

He had directed a little movie called and then I won’t put the movie in but it was a huge movie sure. You know, he had he had line produced a little movie called. Insert huge movie here. Sure, and I was like, oh my God, I better check my ego and so I sucked it up and let him treat me like shit because he was a misogynist.

He was awful and then I optioned by material to him which was a huge mistake. And then I Googled because nowadays you can IMDb in the bathroom. Like now I’ve learned like, excuse me go to the bathroom IMDb the shit out of their lies, right, but it turned out he had second. Unit line. Oh, no, he had told me he had produced it, but he had second unit line produced it which is he’s basically yeah producer like finding the money soup tonight it and second unit line producing is someone who was hired to cut checks for a couple of days.

Not even the main line producer the second in a producer unit line producer when he told me he produced it, but then the third I was going to say because it goes the other way to is people who drive the flashy cars and have the gorgeous can sometimes be so um, So encumbered and so least and so fake about what they’re projecting is their image that they don’t have the money to scrape together change out of their depth for iced tea at a McDonald’s right?

Yep. And sometimes you’ll be with someone who’s driving a beat-up car and they’re not inexpensive shoes and they do not offer to pick up the tab that’s on somebody else’s expense account and they are the person who owns 21 homes free and clear and could actually fund your film but they’re not trying to impress you and they are cheap and the reason they’re rich is because they’re cheap and that doesn’t mean they won’t invest in your film.

So I mean it goes both ways. I do find and this is against only from years of. Variants that the people who are the big loud mouths the people who are the boasters. Yes. There are those guys, you know, they are the Brett ratner’s of the world that are those kind of people, you know, and do actually know these people and actually have the money and stuff and I threw Brett out there because he deserves to be thrown out there.

Um, and I have no problem with that, um, but there but most of the times you’re gonna. You know if you see the guy quiet in the room and he’s in the room, first of all, she’s in the room. That means that they’ve done something to be in that room. Yeah and generally speaking. They’re not going to be the boasting guys are not gonna be the ones dropping names if you see Steven Soderbergh car.

He drives like a 2005-2008 Buffett does too by the way, right? Exactly because they’re not trying to impress anyone there. Yeah, and they’re very and they’re rare in LA. They’re in the business in general. You don’t meet those people very often Fair. They’re rare and Wall Street there where Nashville no, they’re everywhere and everywhere every industry.

But in our business, you know, you don’t meet those people. So when I do actually meet people like our be, uh, like Suzanne Lions who’s like you like you as well, um people, you know people who are actually doing what they’re saying, they’re doing and are not boasting about hey, I’ve got you know 300.

Thousand followers and you know, I have this I have that the proofs in the pudding. Yeah, look you just you know, go and look. Well, you know, look me up. Okay look or they’ll say look, you know, I don’t want to talk about it. And that quite frankly is the value to your website and social media, you know, the more I feel like in my websites not perfect, but I try really hard to have it project a good image.

But I think that’s good because you can have a conversation give them a business card and then they can do their due diligence on you and they can. Check you out after the fact they can check your bio. They can check your credits on IMDb. And so you can just be a human being involved and engaged in the conversation and not be trying to spit out your resume.

So, you know, that is that’s how I think you can be using your marketing and social media and those things to to to back you up with this 24 shingle that’s out there all the time, but just be a human being when and be present in those conversations. Now we’ve gone off off the rails a little bit in this interview because we were talking more about markets but this all works into the network.

Oh it all works at um, but can you act can you throw a few Insider nuggets of things that we should look for at Phil markets things that you like? I wish I would have known this doing a market before. Well, there’s so much that I wrote a book on it. So you like before that’s actually the whole reason for the book was because.

Said you had gone to one of your first markets recently really kind of like blown away and overwhelmed. I think anyone in this business should just get on a market floors fast as possible because. What you learn and how humbling it is will really put things in perspective for the rest of your career.

So whether you sell anything I’ll go ahead. I don’t know. It’s a product and that was the thing. I said in my review of AFM like it’s so humbling because they don’t care about the craft. They don’t care about the Artistry. They don’t care about it’s a product. Yeah, and as soon as you understand that changes your perspective a whole I don’t let your personal project.

They don’t care about it. Yeah, and they’re not being me neither. They’re just. It’s not even callous. They’re just so matter-of-fact and they can smile while they’re just eviscerating you hateful. Absolutely. They can’t you know, it’s art to us, but they don’t care. They don’t care. Obviously Steven Segal Mike Tyson, not a lot of art that movie so so I will say that honestly, I I’ll tell you like how the book started then I’ll tell you a couple Secrets.

Um, I was at the American Film Market in 2013. I have booked all the speakers and I was helping focal. Press come up with their uh line their franchise line the AFM presents. And so they had focal press had said, you know, who do you think would make a good author for one of our books or in our series and who would be a good subject matter expert and I like, you know, you need to get our be to do something on crowdsourcing add got him on a panel.

I was like you’ve got to know but nobody’s talkin about that and I gave him all these names of people and I had gotten another friend Ann Marie on the finance panel. I just really tried hard to get. You know some new fresh voices that we needed to be hearing at the AFM. I was actually really proud because people told me later they opened up the full page spread and Hollywood Reporter daily variety and I had all the pictures for the panelists and people at least a dozen people wrote me privately and said, I don’t know how you did it.

But it was 50/50 female mail and it was every color of skin under the sun. That’s because normally we don’t see that so I was really had like my own private agenda to try to really diversify what we saw so that you weren’t getting like putting all the women on one panel because we don’t want this on you can avoid that panel or all the people of color on one panel and that’s our diversity panel, but get one on every channel.

That was my goal. Good anyway, um, So so when I was helping her I was giving her all these people that I think I got ate a dozen Friends book deals that year. Um, she said well if you come up with anything else let us know and I said I can tell you right now what you’re missing and she said what I go, you’ve got the American Film Market presents and no one’s ever written a book on how to work markets and her face just dropped like.

Yeah, it’s like always the obvious that we missed. So I said, oh all right it you know and I of course didn’t feel like I was a guru. I just knew I could research and I reached out to at least 200 people. I did interviews for a couple years for that book. So. Some of the things I learned at one of at one AFM I was sitting there and I won’t mention names of companies.

I will tell you privately no problem. I appreciate it. Um, anyway, I was sitting there with a girlfriend and we were going in to meet someone I had interviewed because that was another thing I did I used it to network like crazy. So then I could meet 200 people that were you know, International sales agents and Distributors and all that financiers an investor so are sitting there to meet one of the people who identified with and we were on the other side of this cubby wall because you know, Sometimes have these temporary copy walls and like there’s four feet of empty.

You know that it’s the wall is not there on the other side with somebody pitching and on the other side of another wall where a couple of people so there was an established. Distributor who was teaching a wet-behind-the-ears rookie distributor who was new to their company of how to do what they needed to do.

And I don’t know how much you know about like I do my own budgets and schedules and I can life and stuff. So I don’t know how much you know about this but it hit us, but basically when you do an independent film you have to often do a sag Bond, right? Okay. So let’s say you have a million dollar film and your.

For your actors is let’s say 200,000. So sag might make you put up two hundred thousand or fifty thousand, but you have to put up a bond so that if for any reason you flake out and don’t pay the payroll for that week sag can dip into this bond that it’s a formula that they make you that they hold the whole time.

So if you need a billion dollars, you actually need 1 million because you got to put this money up that sits there that you can’t touch until you get it back. And so this distributor was. Explaining to the other distributor the new distributor how they could basically make a commission off you getting your sag Bond refunded to you if they use the wording for gross receipts into the account.

They were managing. Okay, so in other words. They’re supposed to be selling your film and getting a commission from turkey or China or you know, wherever they’re selling it. And as those monies come in they take 10% 20% whatever their commission is off the top. She was teaching him how to get the bond the savings account you raised Blood Sweat and Tears that you had sitting there to pay your actors that when you got it back from sag, they could take ten to twenty percent of it because it pass through their account.

So let me let me clarify something. You’re telling me that there are unscrupulous distributors in the marketplace. Can you imagine this? Is this an exclusive? And they were training one another down the daisy chain how to screw Independent Producers so I know shocking absolutely. I’ve never heard of anything like this that like you’re gonna take a commission off my savings account that I barely scraped together to make this film.

What is this my God and then they want us to sign a contract that says. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you can handle my money. I trust you. Yeah. Those are the kinds of things so literally during the course of writing this book. I will say I and this probably not politically correct, but we’ve established. I’m an idiot.

Yes. Um, Probably will make very little money off this you know, because the publisher makes 80% you are bad. Okay, so I I don’t people are like, oh, I’ll buy your book. I’m like, thanks like what I like maybe I’ll see two cents ten years from now. I don’t know. So I was so frustrated writing this book Because all that I was learning and all of that and I didn’t even want to do is two years of work for free for what right?

I know. Well what kept me going was storyteller. Around the world content creators people who have a dream people who have a passion people have a story that is so under their skin that they’re working for two or five or 10 years for free speculatively and I thought I got to help him. I gotta help them navigate these markets.

I gotta help them. Stop being screwed. I got to help them save money and I will tell you this is really inappropriate and I I love it. I really must edit it. No, we won’t I was in the AFM series. Really in the franchise sure, and I was part of that and it was always going to be that and it was kicked out because um of many of the things I said of how to save money and how to you know, okay, if you can’t afford a badge, here’s what you do, you know, well, I mean Heather Heather Heather Heather to to to afms defense here, I’m sorry, but.

I get that and I edited it all out. You know what I mean? But image has done the damage was done. And so the truth is, you know, there’s a lot in this book that the markets don’t want you to know and the other thing was by the end of it. I was like, okay, here’s how you work around the markets.

Here’s how you take everything you’ve learned. Yeah that work on a market floor. And here’s how you DIY it. Here’s how you do YouTube Here’s how you use social media. Here’s how you sell not business-to-business, but business-to-consumer because that is Revolution that Amazon and who they’re still in the middle.

You literally could have your own website and sell your books and your movies and your TV if they’re good enough directly to the crowd that you’re creating. So I think it was two independent and two irreverent real and I have a problem with. No, look, I i-i-i-i giveaway. Uh, I give away, um, uh a lead generator for if you sign up to my email list, uh, six tips to get into film festivals for free or cheap.

Yeah. Exactly. And I think I got into over 600 film festivals in the course of my career and I paid for probably less than 5% of 10% Yeah, but you know, sometimes that rubs the film film festivals the wrong way. I’m like, but guys look, you know. It’s such a hard business, you know, people are like I would volunteer for variety summits.

I volunteered for everything I couldn’t afford to go to. You know, so I’m a little peon peasant with a name badge but I get to hear the studio execs telling it like it is to, you know, be a fly on the wall to the $5,000 receipt thing. I can’t get into so you just we one thing about independent filmmakers is we are Scrappy we are resilient and we are pit bulls and we need to learn to be unflappable badasses now.

Can you say that? Can you talk you spoke about the book a bit? But what’s the name of the book? Where can they get? Um, it’s called how to work the film and TV markets and it’s available on Amazon. It’s available. You know, it’s actually add a lot of the markets the the publisher took it to the AFM and it sold out in the first day.

I’m sure so yeah. So my website is Heather and I will put a plug because it’s not even cost from any money. But on Heather, I’m pretty sure it’s forward slash how to work the film and TV markets, um is all sorts of give away stuff like it has a cow. Of the of the markets all around the world co-production markets festivals and I’ll tell you that that calendar that Matrix took me forever because I had to line up what was going on simultaneously what was an adjunct of that what was going on?

Like if you’re going to another country, what could you also hit while you’re there? It’s a really great calendar. I’ve got the um the facts on. So who’s got housekeeping deals where at that them archived? So you can look back who used to have a deal with what studio and what distributor it’s got.

Um, so many different sets of information. So and that’s all you know, it’s got a global map. It’s got all the market statistics. It’s got some great full color. Um key art examples. It’s got a unions low-budget Matrix because if you can ever make sense of that game of Sudoku, good luck, right, so it’s got anyway Heather.

How to work the film and TV markets and it’s got tons of giveaways and then um, and then also on there there’s a 21 percent off on Amazon and 20% off the Publishers like a code. So, you know, it’s going to make my two cents go to one but you know that I love the Odyssey. It’s awesome and I’ll put all of those links in the show notes.

I have a few questions left that acts all my guest. Oh my. What advice would you give a filmmaker or screenwriter wanting to break into the business today? Oh, we have another hour now. Um, honestly, this is going to sound really cliche and soapy and but it’s so true. It’s just so freaking true.

And you remember you get reminded of it every year and every decade and that’s just be true to yourself be true to yourself be authentic and know who your friends are because you will learn. Over and over and over again who they are and who they aren’t and you know, if you’re going to be miserable working around the clock at two in the morning you download better make sure it’s something worth working on and I and I would say also, you know.

When we create film and television products or content, I mean a lot of people artists hate to hear it referred to as product and content but at the marketplace that is what it is. It’s a art over at the festivals, but whatever it is that you’re creating that you’re generating you are essentially exporting our culture.

So I would beseech you to please be careful that you’re really espousing values. You actually hold not lowering. To Pander to the lowest common denominator what you think you can sell because you could have a breakout hit with something that’s actually meaningful. You know, you look at Shawshank Redemption and Groundhog Day and you know, there are films out there and there’s nothing wrong with entertainment like cult hits like there’s so much good stuff out there.

But um, you know do stuff you’re really proud of and that really means something to you and it’s cool. Comedy thriller horror whatever it is, but I mean even look at Alien aliens. Those are real horror like in uh, Silence of the Lamb and the Believers like there’s some scary shit out there and it’s still entertaining.

So I’m not saying it has to be G-rated Disney and just saying make sure that what you’re saying with your art is really what you mean because it’s easy for it to get you know going through that Gauntlet to get like GMO two-headed shaped. It’s not what you meant at. All right, you know stay true to yourself.

Stay true to your voice. And and one thing that is good about Hollywood there many many many many many good things about Hollywood, but one of the things I love most about it is it is a society and a culture where everywhere you look people are following their dreams. Everywhere and it is exciting.

It’s are chirpin or as I call them everywhere you look as people who passionately believe usually their scams and posers and Flakes and phonies and all that. But most of the heart that beats in Hollywood is people who have a mission for something they want to say that so under their skin that they’re trying to figure out a way to say it and hold true to that.

You know, it’s like I always say, you know, um, I’m I’m a girl so I’m lucky because I’m very thick-skinned because you need to renounce of skin to survive in Hollywood. But one of the hardest things is to keep your heart open and to say, um, responsive to the communal Consciousness and to have empathy for other people’s World Views and points of views.

So if you can don’t be a dick, That’s that that should be on a t-shirt if that’s not don’t be like the best advice you could have in Hollywood. Don’t be a dick. Just don’t be a dick. Yeah a nice person and that doesn’t mean be a doormat. It means be an unflappable badass cheerfully tell the truth and be honest and be you know have good intentions and and and write great stories because the world needs them.

Amen more now than ever. Um, can you. Me what book had the biggest impact on your life or career? Oh boy. This is going to reveal my libertarian roots. Um, probably Atlas Shrugged or The Fountainhead. Okay Grilli. Um, I know that’s not an industry book, but sure it’s all about golf’s Gulch. I got you.

I got you. I got you. No problem. No problem. Um, now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life? Oh my goodness. There’s so many I’m not sure I’ve learned them all. Um, Okay. Well, I’m stealing this from my dad, but I think he would allow me to and I’ll probably cry because he recently passed but um, you don’t have to make every mistake personally interesting and that you can surround yourself with mentors and Mastermind groups and friends and you can learn from other people’s mistakes and advice and that doesn’t make.

You know, you don’t have to make every mistake yourself. If you’re smart, you can learn from others mistakes. And because I mean why wouldn’t you sometimes sometimes you have to learn it by sticking your hand in the fire? But if you have people tell you hey, I’ve been burned there don’t put your hand there and that’s why you have to know who your friends are because there are a lot of people who are going to tell you.

Oh don’t put your hand in my cookie jar when really you can build your own cookie jar and they shouldn’t be in your kitchen to know who your friends are. Your friends and I am very blessed to have. A few who will tell you when you’re being a shit who will tell you when you’re being myopic who will tell you when you’re not seeing the forest for the trees and then there’s times where I’ve had this happen many many many times where you know, you have an email and you send it to a few friends to make sure that they vet it to make sure it’s not too emotional or you’re not saying anything that could be slanderous or whatever at sometimes you can have and I have this happen to our fact an old story of told many times, but I wrote to Sherry Lansing once.

And everybody in my circle said no don’t send it. Don’t send it. Don’t set it. No, you’ll embarrass yourself. No, you’re reaching too far. No, no, no. And guess who called me Sherry Lansing now, by the way, can you tell everybody who doesn’t know who Sherry she was the first woman to run a studio and she was like I panic and you’d name.

Yeah. She was behind she was a beast huge like behind every successful film for like a decade and half. Yes. So all I’m saying is that there are times when all your friends and fans and champions who have your best interests at heart. I’m not saying they’re wrong. But they are not seeing either how big you could be.

No, or the path that you’re seeing through the trees or sometimes, you know, it’s not a lottery ticket. Sometimes it’s just luck and you reach out and with this sharing Lansing example, and I can give a million others. It was some connection I had. That I knew she would respond to you know, you can see someone’s Achilles heel.

You have a tender spot in your heart that you know that that thread will connect you to them. And if you authentically speak to that and sometimes your rage, I mean I’ve had um, you know, knockdown fights not fights but verbal with people who I loved and adored who were eight. We were able to come back around.

Because we spoke Our Truth and we realized we were like kind of out of sync and we both heard the other person’s point of view. We understood it and got it and we got our friendship back on track and you know, the could have been derailed and it’s the stronger friendship for it. And what are three of your favorite films of all time?

Oh for sure. I have to say my Groundhog Day & schanker to say those spoof probably for sure for sure. But I’ll say a couple others. Um, one of my favorites a little teeny teeny film. Um Waking Ned Devine. I love waking I’m in with that is one of my all-time favorite. Um, um, I have to say this won’t be those would be my top three.

I’ll leave it at that. Those are my top three. Yeah Heather. Thank you so much for uh for sharing uh with the tribe and jumping. It’s a very big knowledge bombs on us if an absolute pleasure having you on the show. Uh, thank you. I’m as my honor and my pleasure and I hope that everyone learned something or at least had a good laugh.

Thanks. I really want to thank Heather for dropping some major knowledge bombs about film and television markets on the tribe today. And if you guys have not had the opportunity to go to a market like a FM or can um, or or um, definitely if you have an opportunity to go and do it, even if you have nothing to sell.

Go and understand talk to people understand the process of how independent film and independent television series are sold in the more you understand about that process and about the business of selling your product. You will be so much more successful and get to your goals faster and faster. Trust me.

I learned not only a ton with this is Meg, but I had already learned a lot about selling movies and going through that process throughout my career. When I learned so much more just doing it with this is Meg as well. And now the new film on the corner of ego and desire I’m taking all that knowledge and bringing it to that project.

So the more you do the more you learn the better it is and I tell you when I went to AFM when I’ve gone to Toronto at their mini market, uh, there’s so many amazing nuggets of information you can get so please if you have an opportunity. Do it. Could you will not be disappointed if you want links to anything.

We spoke about in this episode including links to Heather’s book head over to indie film hustle for zero, and if you haven’t already guys if you love the show, please head over to filmmaking podcast and leave us a five star review. It really really helps me out a lot helps out the podcast a lot to get it ranked higher to get more people to see it and listen to this information.

So please just head over to filmmaking podcast. And leave us that five-star review. Thank you so much. And as always keep that hustle going keep that dream alive, and I’ll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the indie film hustle podcast at indie film hustle.