IFH 829: The Secret to Marketing Your Movie Like a Pro with Brad Wilke

Alex Ferrari 0:00
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:00
So for today on the podcast, we have Brad Wilke. Brad is a screenwriter of Camel Spiders and Paraconda. Brad holds an MBA from University of Washington's Foster School of Business, as well as a master of communication digital media from the University of Washington's Department of Communication. Brad is also the co founder of Swarn house creative, a company that designs and executes digital and social media strategies for films and filmmakers. We talk about how to build an audience for your project, how to network and working with a legendary Roger Corman, Brad, how are you, sir?

Brad Wilke 0:00
Oh, not bad, Dave. Thanks a lot. Great to be here.

Dave Bullis 0:00
Oh, I, you know, I thank you very much for coming on, Brad. You know, Brad, a question I always ask everyone to get started is, you know, how did you get started in the film business?

Brad Wilke 0:00
Yeah, well, you know, it was a it was a pretty winding path that I took, you know, I went to West Point Of all places. So it was in the army for five years after I graduated in 1998 so that's how I ended up out here in the Pacific Northwest, at Fort Lewis. And during my time at Fort Lewis, I, you know, would spend a lot of nights and weekends up in Seattle, just, you know, this was before social media, and before a lot of you know, so much like everything was on the web. So, you know, just going to a lot of, like, film screenings and help, you know, like just connecting, like, I was interested in film, but didn't really know that it was, like a career path necessarily, even though I made a lot of short like VHS movies as a kid growing up with neighborhood friends. So, you know, ended up making a short film here in Seattle. I shot it on 16 millimeter and edited it on a steam Beck. So would, you know, spend my day down in Fort Lewis in the army, and then come up here at night, and, you know, edit old school style, and then drive back down to Fort Lewis, so, so that kind of got, you know, my feet wet in the business. And you know, I really enjoyed that. And the short film, you know, did okay on the festival circuit. And, you know, led to another one. And then I made, you know, and then it just kind of blossomed from there, like I ended up doing some pre screening for the Seattle International Film Festival. And then, you know, came on board as a programmer, which is not a full time job by any by any stretch, just FYI, anybody out there. Yes, you you can make a living as a programmer, but it's, you know, the those kind of jobs are few and far between. So, you know, it's definitely a labor of love. And you know, also had been, you know, continuing to write screenplays, and ended up working through just literally, a cold email that I sent to Jim winorsky, who early, early one morning when I was, like, on the verge of giving up screenwriting for good, I was just, you know, was one of those, like moments, you know, you're staring into the abyss and, you know, and it turned out it was, it was great. And that's turned into a really fruitful writing relationship with Jim and, you know. And then smart house started, because I got laid off, like I. I during all as all of that was happening, I had started a nonprofit when I got out of the army, which led me to business school, which is something I never thought that I would be doing. And from there, I got a kind of a concurrent degree, masters of Communication and Digital Media, which which really laid the groundwork for a lot of the work we do at Smart House, and was working for a pretty large global health nonprofit here in Seattle as their digital engagement strategist, and got laid off. They had a round of budget cuts, and that hit only the external relations so they lost 40% of their web team. And I was part of that, and that's really where I, you know, was just sort of like wondering why I have two kids, what am I going to do now? And I, you know, I was like, Well, I love movies. I, you know, have a fair amount of knowledge about business and digital strategy and, you know, that world and I program, you know, like, all these things. And so I just was like, Well, how can I combine those? And that's kind of, really, how, how smart house got off the ground along with, you know, my business partner, Brian Davis, like she, you know, wasn't just like I had started my own smaller company, and then we decided to join forces because, you know, she is a publicist and I'm not. So it was kind of like a match made in film marketing heaven. So that's kind of like, in a nutshell, kind of how things progressed.

Dave Bullis 0:37
You know, it's amazing you went to West Point, because I actually used to help out a social media group that was connected to West Point. I'm kidding. Yeah, they were called, like, the Delco, friends of West Point. They found me some randomly on the internet one day, and they were like, Can we meet with you to discuss a social media strategy? And they were just, you know, I mean, we went over everything, you know, and they were showing me videos of West Point and all this other stuff. And it was actually, it was actually pretty fascinating. A lot of the stuff went over. So it's actually, again, like always say, through this interview, through all these podcasts, I always say it's such a small world.

Brad Wilke 0:37
Oh yeah, it really is. And especially, you know, it's what's really interesting is, you know, just kind of on the topic of West Point, there are very few West Point graduates, I guess is, I was thinking of like, I was like, cadets grad, like, what's the Forgot what to call them, momentarily, old grads, as we're called, who are involved in the film industry. So, and I feel like I'm very fortunate to know, as far as I know, like almost all of them who are doing stuff, and they're doing some some great stuff. You know, Sean Mullen just wrote and directed Amira and Sam, which came out through draft house. And you know, there's a couple other guys. One of them was working on the Army Wives as a staff writer. And you know, people are doing some really cool stuff. Another friend of mine that was actually my classmate, Nick palaciano, he just directed, after raising a pretty large sum of money on Indiegogo, kind of like a zombie thriller set, I believe, at a military base firing range with his company. It's called Ranger up. So actually looking forward to seeing that, but, you know, it's like, it can kind of count, like alumni and former graduate who are, who are in the entertainment industry. So it's a it's even smaller world as you get, you know, lower and lower into the weeds there.

Speaker 1 8:13
You know, Ranger up sounds pretty good. Because, you know, one problem I've always had with zombie movies, Brad is, you know, the zombie apocalypse, you know, it happens. There's an outbreak, there's a group of survivors, you know, that are protagonists. We follow them. Well, the first time they pick up a gun, they're crack shots. They're hitting head shots from like, you know, 1000 yards away. Oh, you want that zombie? Bam. I'm like, and I'm thinking to myself, I mean, that is an amazing shot for a top marksman. And this person is just randomly, you know, picking up, you know, a shotgun and hitting, you know, so I imagine in Ranger up, if they're actually good at shooting zombies in the head, there's a good reason for it now.

Brad Wilke 8:54
Yeah, right, like, that's a, that's a great point, you know, and military people are some of the most critical when it comes to, you know, films that involve the military, you know, especially with, you know, one of the scripts that I wrote for Roger Corman with Jim monorski, camel spiders. You know, the protagonist is a captain in the Army who's back from Afghanistan. And, you know, everybody's like, you know, pointing out, like, problems with his uniform and all these things and, you know, and blaming the screenwriter, you know, like, I should never, like, never go on IMDb message boards, you know, like, it actually, like, it kind of got gave me, like, a very, very, if my skin wasn't thick enough being in the film industry to begin with. It got a lot thicker real quick after that movie came out. And you know, everything like, oh, that screenwriter probably has no idea what the, you know, it's like. And here I am, like an Army veteran, you know, who went to West Point. And, you know, I don't have any control over that, like every, you know, a lot of times like the screenwriter gets the blame when things aren't right and never gets the credit when things when things are right. So, you know, screenwriting, anybody who's listening, is sometimes a very thankless profession.

Speaker 1 10:17
Very true. Brad, very true. I mean, I've had friends who have worked on like, martial arts movies, as you look, stunt coordinators, for instance, or fight choreographers. And you know, when the movie comes out, you know, some of their friends are like, Wait a minute. You know what? What is going on here? Why? You know? Why are they throwing why is this? You know, grappler, wrestler guy, throwing punches. And he's like, look, you know, that's what the director wanted. You know, it's out of my hands.

Brad Wilke 10:42
Yep, exactly. It's so true. It's so true.

Speaker 1 10:46
So, you know, Brian, I wanted to talk to you. You mentioned working with Roger Corman on, you know, on a project, you know, how did you end up, you know, getting to work with Roger

Brad Wilke 10:54
Well, so I was not like I was working with Jim wonorski for a project that was executive produced by Roger Corman. So I got script notes and stuff, but I live in Seattle. So this is a an interesting kind of scenario for screenwriters who don't live in, you know, Los Angeles or even New York City. So what happened was I was watching, I've been a big fan of B movies for my whole life, like I grew up watching some of Jim winorsky is very films like death stalker two and chopping mall, and not of this earth, you know, like fun, you know, kind of classic B movies, right? And one night in, like, 2010 or maybe it was, No, it was 2009 like the fall, like October of 2009 before I went to business school, and I was kind of, like at a low point, like I was, you know, living with my current, you know, my wife now, but we were, you know, not engaged. Like, it was kind of like, what am I doing with my like, I don't know what's going on. And it was kind of in this, like, binge watching period of horror films from Netflix and just whatever, right? So I got chopping mall one night, and I had seen it before, so I was going to watch it with the I'd seen it multiple times, but it's one of Jim's, you know, used to be called Kill bots, and it's kind of like a Robocop in a mall.

Speaker 1 12:09
I've seen that movie. I have a not now, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I usually have, like, a fan movie marathon, and shopping mall is one of the films I always put in there. And some people get it, and some other people are like, What the hell is going on here? They're, they're security guard robots, or,

Brad Wilke 12:25
Yeah, it's great. And the backstory, you know, behind that is, you know, I won't go into all of it, but, you know, Jim kind of made it, you know, in a very short period of time, in evenings, like they were shooting in the, you know, the mall that they shot Fast Times at Ridgemont, high in when it was closed at night, and then they had to be out of there by the morning. And, you know, it was produced by Julie Corman. And Roger didn't know that Jim was making it, like it was this, like, really, really funny story, kind of, like the, you know, like, the golden age of, like, the 80s, kind of like, anything goes filmmaking. But anyway, so, anyway, so I listened to it with Jim's commentary, and I was like, man, you know, this guy seems like a really smart, like, seems like a nice guy. Like, I should, like, wonder what he's doing now. Like, I, you know, I didn't know. Like, he had been, like, you know, continuously working since, like, you know, 1983 or something like that. And, you know, churning out a lot of, you know, some, some good, some, you know, you know, juries out. I don't say bad, but you know, like, you know, multiple films a year. So I looked him up on IMDb Pro, and I kind of had this idea in my back of my mind. I was just like, I'm just gonna write him an email. And I don't know what I'm gonna say, but I'm gonna write him an email. So anyway, so I did that, and sure enough, on IMDb Pro, His contact information is right there, you know, on the on his like profile. And I was like, Okay, I guess that's some sort of sign. I don't know exactly what. And so, you know, and I, and also, like, I was not, you know, drinking or high at the time. This was all like, this was all done. It was just really late and, and, you know, so I, so I tapped out an email, and then I, you know, that morning, I kind of rewrite it, and just, you know, kind of said, like, I, you know, been a fan of your films for a while, you know. And you know, my actual screenwriter, and, you know, I've had some scripts that have placed in contests, but, you know, just nothing's ever really clicked with, you know, I can't remember exactly what I wrote, but, you know, I said, you know, if you need a second set of eyes on something, or, you know, a project that needs, you know, to go from idea to, you know, treatment, or whatever you know, let me know I'm, you know, I'm, I'm your man. And you know, I just had no expect. I'd never done it before, either, so I had no expectation of what the outcome would be. I was just like, Well, why not? Right, nothing to lose. Like, I was, like, I said, on the verge of, like, just like throwing in the towel. Because, you know, if you're writing without, like, an agent or a manager, it can often feel like you're just kind of writing in a vacuum. And, you know, your family might read something or, you know, but nobody really cares, honestly, and, uh. You know, the next day, I think it was, got an email back from him, you know, saying, like, Hey, thanks for the email. Like, you know, seemed like a smart guy, well written email, you know, I'll give you a call. Like, well, you know, like, so, so we ended up talking, you know, either that later that day or the next day, like, very, you know, in very short order, and had a really good conversation. Like, Jim's like, you know, no matter what you would say about his films, like, I've never, and I didn't even know the half of it, but like, you know, he's just, like, a really, really smart, like, film person. Like, he just knows how movies work, and he loves movies. And so we, you know, kind of talked like, I for a period after I got out the army, I worked at scarecrow video here in Seattle, which is like, sort of like, you know, like, sort of a pantheon of, you know, movie geek so I could kind of hold my own with him. And he's, like, all right, you know. So here's what I'm gonna do. I don't know, you know, I like you. It seems like, you know you're smart enough, or whatever, and you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna send you the script. It needs a lot of work to get a green light from Roger. You know, how, like, B talks like, he's more like, he's a lot of work to get a green, you know, like, kind of, like, really, really gruff and, and he's like, so I'm gonna send it to you, give it a read, and I want you to rewrite the first 10 pages. And here's the stuff. I want you to concentrate, you know, focus on this, you know, this needs to be punched up. This needs to, you know. He's like, you know, take your time, because we'll only give you one chance. And he's like, you know, send it back to me, and if I like it, you know, you can rewrite the whole, you know, you can basically, you know, get it into fighting shape, and then, you know, I'll give you, you know, credit. And, you know, blah, blah, all this stuff, right? And so, okay, so, so sends me a script and camel spiders. And, you know, I read it and thought about it, and spent like, like, basically, like, a week, like, trying to, like, fix, or like, improve the first 10 pages. And then I did, and I sent it back to him. And then, you know, pretty, pretty shortly after that, he, you know, calls back. And I didn't have his number in my phone at this, you know, so I just saw, like, it was the same, no, I was like, Oh, I see at home, boy, this is it, right? Like, I was like, here's the call, right? You know, this could, like, you know, make or break my you know, you know, fledgling career, whatever there is of it right now, you know. And I was so used to like rejection and everything that it was such a shock when, when he's like, he was like, Brad Wilkie, Jim winhorsky, love it. Loved it, you know, like, he just, like, he was really just like, he's very blunt, like, if he doesn't like something, I've heard a lot of times from him, he'd be like, nope, nope. Hate it, hate it. Fix it, change it. And, you know, you just learn, you know, it's just like, you don't take it personally. You just really, it's like a kind of a professional, you know, just like, Okay, let's, you know, adjust here what we're gonna do. So anyway, he liked it, and, you know, so he, you know, so I ended up rewrite, and then, you know, from that, you know, so I went down to set, and, you know, I have a little cameo in the film. And, you know, got to kind of experience that, that world of on the fly filmmaking. But even better, like, even like, I think, more importantly, it really taught me how to write to a budget without, like, losing any creativity. And, you know, a lot of times, yeah, people would love to have, like, I just told this story to somebody earlier today, who you know, because I don't usually bring this stuff up in conversation, you know, in conversation. But sometimes, you know, people will know about it and say, like, how did you, you know, like, well, you know, what's Tell me about that? And so anyway, I was just telling this very exact story earlier about how there was a scene where it was like a bus load of tourists get attacked by the camel spiders. And, you know, it was, it wasn't essential to the story, but it had a point. Like, there was a reason it was there to move the story forward. And you know, the first thing that Jim did when you read that that new scene was like, Nope, can't do it. I got to get a bus. I got to get at least 20 extras. I got to put them up for a day. Got to feed all of them. I got, you know, he's like, do something else, like, take it out, figure out, you know. So it was like, it was kind of like this, like boot camp on, you know, writing effective, low budget, you know, genre pieces, and you know, from there, you know, then, you know, I pitched Purana conda, so ended up doing like, three different treatments, and they all got rejected, which was really frustrating, and then came on to do some uncredited rewrites, you know, Jim wanted, you know, and I don't even know if that was like, because my second child is, or my first child is being born at the time. So, like, I was supposed to go out to set, but, you know, and I say this, like, I don't regret it at all not going out to set, but, you know, so I don't know, like, if you know, so it was just, like, it was, like, such a, like, I was kind of a bit of a letdown in that sense, like, I really wanted to, like, be more involved in that project, because, you know, it was my, you know, and I, you know, thankfully, because, like, I feel like I've only ever had handshake deals with Jim, you know, I did get you know concept, and you know credit, and you know all that you know, like the you know, like the credit for it. You know that that's great, but I wanted to do more hands on writing. And then, you know, since then, Jim and I have, you know, co written, probably at least three other like, full screen plays, none of which had been produced, but all were, like, on the docket were going to happen, and then, for whatever reason, you know, funding fell through on one something, you know, something else got, you know, a slate got, you know, it was kind of like just the typical reasons movies never get made so, but each time I learned something, you know, it was, it's, it's, yeah, it was a really great experience. And, you know, the movies are low budget creature features. But I feel like, from a writing perspective, you know, they were invaluable experiences. And I really, you know, to this day, you know. And I'm sure, like, you know, Jim probably will never even listen to the screenplay or this podcast. But even if I send it to him, I say, Listen, you know, I probably, like, won't get around to it. So I'm saying this, like, you know, just as an actual fact. Like, you know, I feel like I've learned so much from him and like his like, you know, just like, taking a chance on, like, some random person who emailed him was, you know, unbelievable. And, you know, like, I just feel like, you know, there's people that I know that I'll email and like, won't get back to me, you know. I mean, like, it's so, so it's, you know, I think, you know, there's so much luck involved in the film industry and so, like, so I would never sit here and say, like, oh yeah, it was because I was such a good writer, you know, you know, anybody who succeed, you know, I feel like it's easy for people to, kind of, like, you know, after having, like, some sort of, not even like, success, but like, just Something happens that's good, or, you know, you move forward, that you can create this sort of narrative saying, like, well, it was because of this and this and kind of piece together random things and say, that's why. But, you know, in reality, it's just like a bunch of random things that happen. And yes, I was prepared, and I was ready and all those kind of things. But, you know, it's, you know, I think, you know, for any, again, like anybody who's listening, who's like, you know, trying to, like, get a script made, or get, like, it's, it's probably not your fault that, you know, like that the screenplay is not, you know, going into production, like it's, you know, and that's, I think that's hard though, to accept and, but I but I also think, like, once you do accept it, and, you know, kind of understand, like, have, like, sort of, like a semi like, kind of, like Zen demeanor about it all, I think it makes the whole process that much more enjoyable, and actually, you know, maybe even more fruitful.

Speaker 1 22:35
So, you know, you're right about people not getting back to you on emails. Like, I have friends that I've known for like, 10 years, won't respond to an email, you know, and I'll email somebody, or, you know, I found their website just ask them a question, or maybe, you know, talk to them about coming on the podcast right away. They'll respond in a heartbeat. And I'm and I'm always like, what you know? What the hell is that? You know? Why?

Brad Wilke 22:57
Yeah, you know, it's hard to and I feel like, but what that did is, you know, like, I feel like I saw, I've always been, like, relatively generous with my time, but I feel like, you know, because of, well, like I just, I just feel like I always use that as an example of, like, I'm never like, too important or too good or too busy or too whatever, to like, respond back, like I'm Like, even if I can't help the person or, like, it's not a thing like, you know, like that, I'm in a position to, you know, like, it is like a random, like, somebody just, you know, like, I always try to like, and if not like, always do it like, always, at least try to like, give some sort of response, no matter how short it might be, because that's like, not the norm. And, you know, it's just, it's just frustrating to me to think like, of how many like people just stop like, because that's the other thing, I mean, is, I'm sure you know, you know, and anybody you know, like, people like, who, like, are interested in this world, that it's just like, it takes so much persistence and so much like, just like, you know, it's not even about, like, not taking no for an answer, or not like, it's like, it's like, just like, not just being completely, like, like, debilitatingly, like, defeated by rejection and just like, indifference. That's the problem. Like, I would rather deal with rejection honestly than indifference. Or, you know, somebody just being like, Oh, I don't know, you know, like, just like, whatever, like, I'm not going to respond to that. Like, I'd rather have somebody say, like, No, this is a terrible screenplay. You're stupid. Then just like, not go, just kind of be like, Hey, what's going and I feel like that happens more often, is like, nobody wants to, like, say no, or nobody wants to, like, take a position, because then, you know, they have to, they're accountable. And, you know, that's tough. Like, I, I see that a lot in programming, film, programming for myself. Like, you know, I have to, like, tell filmmakers that I have a relationship with every year. You know, there's a handful where it's where I, you know, it's, I have to make a phone call that's not a positive phone call. It's saying we can't, you know, I. And find a spot for your film in the program this year. But I feel like, out of respect for that person, I respect for that relationship, you know, you like, you got to kind of like, own up to it and say, yeah, like, here's, you know, here's the feedback I have. Like, here, you know, I wish it, you know, wish it could have been different. But, you know, I feel like a lot of times, like, people aren't willing to, sort of, like, take that responsibility. And I think that creates sort of an environment where it's okay to, like, just ignore stuff or kick stuff down the line to somebody else take care of it. And, you know, I don't know. I'm not saying I'm a saint for doing it, but it's just like, that's, that's how I want to be treated, you know. So I feel like the least I can do is try to, like, put that out in sort of a pay it forward style.

Speaker 1 25:47
Well, you know, when, when house of 1000 corpses came out? Sid Haig, who was in the movie, actually said what we wanted was either people to love it or hate it. So at the advanced screenings of it. He said, You know, they gave out those feedback forms. And he said, anytime they had somebody love it or hate it, they're like, that's great. What they hated to see, though, was somebody giving it like a five out of 10. It's just like, you know, this movie wasn't good or bad. I didn't feel, you know, one way other. He said, want to get you out of that indifference and push you to one one extreme or the other?

Brad Wilke 26:22
Yeah, totally, and I totally agree with that. It's like you just want a reaction. I think so much about film and art and you know, anything, really, most things, I guess, is you know that you want somebody to like, just like, Be engaged or aware, or marketing, too. It's like you want to make an impression, you know, ideally, like a positive impression. But, you know, yeah, I think you could kind of apply that across the board.

Speaker 1 26:50
Yeah, very true. You know, I've seen that too in screenplays that, you know, I've been asked to get feedback on. I'm always, you know, trying to, you know, there was a saying one time a screenwriting teacher once told me, I believe it was a maximum, maximum value, maximum entertainment. And he said that maximum entertainment ends up taking you to these extremes then so be it, you know, like you've seen, I mean, for instance, the hatchet films. I don't know if you've seen the hatchet films, but they're sort of like a splatter house type film. You know, there's a lot of gore, a lot of bloodshed, some people just don't get those, you know, movies. But, you know, guys like me, I'm like, Hey, this is, this is freaking hilarious.

Brad Wilke 27:30
Yeah, no, I love, I mean, I love genre films. Like, I feel like those like, I mean, I would much rather watch a bad genre film than a mediocre, you know, kind of narrative, like drama, you know, that, like, might have more prestige, or might have a name actor, or something like that. And believe me, like, I watch a lot of movies that don't get, you know, like a release, you know, like, you know, because I pre screen for Sundance, I program for Seattle. And then also, like, you know, there's a couple other film festivals that, like, I'm, like, a friend of the you know, like, kind of like, hey, this might look or, what do you think you know? Like, get a question, like, what do you think of this movie? Or what you know, like, that kind of thing. Plus, you know, on Twitter, like, I get people that send me Vimeo links all the time, which I highly encourage. Like, I feel like, you know, like to take advantage of all those sort of, like network effects that might exist and channels that you might have access to. And I feel like Twitter is, like, a really great way to, like, build community and and get to know people and kind of like, just be part of, you know, no matter what place you're in, even around the world, you know, part of, like, the conversation around, you know, indie film, and what's happening. And, you know, it's just, yeah, I feel like there's like you gotta it's about like participating in the process.

Speaker 1 28:51
You know, I've always said that Twitter is whiz, one of the best, or, if not, the best networking tools ever seen. I've met so many people because of Twitter and just, you know, keeping that social part of social media because, I mean, you know, I if I want to talk to somebody, I'll follow them. I will make sure to send them a tweet, you know, talk about, you know, something off their bio. I hate when people follow me and either don't say anything, or they immediately try to get me to do something for them, like, Hey, Dave, check out my social media link, my crowdfunding link. Can you retweet this? And I'm like, I'm like, I don't even know who you are. Like, it's ludicrous.

Brad Wilke 29:29
Yeah, it really is. And I think that's a great point that you know so many people, especially you know, and this is, this is kind of like, about, you know, indie film marketing or crowdfunding, or, you know, anything that involves, like, kind of like a transactional relationship, is that, you know, people want to go from like zero to 60 immediately, that, like, as soon as, like, somebody connects with something, or fans something, or likes, or whatever you know, the you know, sort of like the metric is, or the you know, the the. The standard is on whatever platform, right? Like they immediately are like, Hey, do this thing, or do that thing. Or now that I've got your attention, you know, sign up for these five newsletters that I have or and it's just overwhelming, because, you know, a lot of people are doing that, and you know, everybody doesn't have to be a pundit, you know, and everybody doesn't have to be, you know, like, I think it's great to have opinions about stuff, but, you know, sometimes it's good to listen sometimes, like, I feel like that's sort of like, the key. Like, if I just say, like, is there a key to, like social media engagement, I would say it's being a good listener. It's not being a good tweeter. It's not being a good like, you know, meme maker or gift creator, or like any of that stuff. Yeah, that helps, right? But it's like, if you're not listening to like the tone and sort of like the scale, or like the, you know, sort of like where the conversation is going. You're gonna just like, come in. You're gonna be that person at a party that, like, you know, like, barges in and it's like, hey, every you know, it's like, you're wearing a toga, and it's a, you know, it's a wake or something, right? And nobody, you know, like, I always, like, use, like, sort of an analogy of, like, Twitter and social media in general, just kind of being like, a an extension of a cocktail party. And you know, sometimes you talk to one person, sometimes you talk to a group of people, sometimes you talk to everyone that's in your your room, but you know to give to no appropriate like times to like when to do those, like when have the bullhorn out, and when to just, you know, you know, or when to direct message, like it's yeah and, and I think it is, like, I absolutely agree with you about Twitter being such a great tool, especially for people in, you know, kind of like freelance or creative kind of roles, or content creators, or whatever that you know, kind of those kind of groups look like. Or, you know, I think Twitter is so much better than LinkedIn or even Facebook that it's such a professional like, the way I kind of set it up is, like, you know, Facebook is kind of like my broad, you know, like, sometimes I'll share family stuff, sometimes I'll share, you know, but like, actually, even don't spend that much time, like, other than for clients, like, for my personal Facebook, whereas I spend a lot of time On Twitter, like reading news and following, you know, like interacting with people and sharing stuff about other people's projects, or local like Pacific Northwest filmmaker stuff, you know, LinkedIn, again, like, kind of same with Facebook, but it's like, even less personal. It's more businessy. And Instagram is just like pictures of my kids, you know. And I think, like, each of those channels have different content styles and they have different tones and, you know, so like all of those things like that, it's hard to teach, like, you can't really, necessarily learn what works and what doesn't work from like an article that's like, top five ways to become a, you know, top engager on Twitter or something like, just have to, like, be part of the conversation and be part of the community. And if you're not willing to take the time to do that, then you can't expect, you know, the community to embrace you when you have an ask of for them, or a need, or, you know, because then it'll seem like you're just, you know, just coming in and, you know, just with your hand out, and that's never good. That's, you know, interpersonally, or, you know, I mean, yeah, I could go on and on about, like, you know, sort of like, the like, my thinking on, sort of like, what underlies good social media engagement and, like, community and communication. But, you know, it's really not that difficult. It's like, would you, you know, what you would do in real life, like in the real world, you know, it's not that much different.

Dave Bullis 33:53
I was reading a very good book by Gary Vaynerchuk. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. You know, Jab, Jab, Jab, Right Hook, which is, you know, give, give, give, ask. And one of the things that Gary was always talking about was, you know, social listening. And stop always using it as like a bullhorn, but actually ask, you know, hey, you know, what's your biggest problem in business? Hey, what you know, what could be better in this? And then, you know, once he would, you know, give solutions or give this, then he would ask something of them. So it would be about an 80-20 ratio of, you know, asking to giving. I'm sorry, giving to asking. So, you know, give out giving 80% of time asking, you know, 20% of the time. And he, you know, that's what he's been using. And, you know, I mean, it's just when I see things like that, you know, immediately, like people just, you know, join me, joining in. Like, hey, click this link, or hey, you know, follow me, or this or that. I just tuned it out. One thing I just got into recently was Instagram. I have gotten so big in Instagram, and I never really thought about that much, and I finally figured out how to use it the way I want to use it. And now, now it's almost become. Like, it's pushing out Twitter as my favorite social media platform. So now I'm just like, I'm on Twitter and Instagram right now,

Brad Wilke 35:07
Yeah, well, and I think, like, Instagram is just going to keep growing, and I think you're going to see a lot of, you know, activity on Snapchat, and things are just going to get more and more visual and, you know, and shorter and emojis and like, you know, it's, it's like, you can either say, like, I mean, I'm 30, I gotta be 40 years old January. And, you know, I'm not a digital native, I'm not a millennial, but I'm also, you know, like a lifelong learner, I guess I would describe myself. And so I feel like there's a lot of people are kind of, like, ah, you know, social media that's, you know, for kids, or that's for this or that, or it's, you know, not relevant, or I don't need to be on social media. And, yeah, maybe somebody doesn't, who's like, like, Wes Anderson, like, it's not gonna, you know, the film director is not gonna help him necessarily, to be on social media. Or Sophia Coppola, you know, like, somebody who's, like, already established, kind of in, you know, like in that last kind of, like golden period of, you know, the three picture deal and, you know, kind of like, you know, having your way paid by studios and mini majors, whereas, like, now, you know, I feel like, if you're again, like a Creative, like freelancer or filmmaker, content creator, or whatever, again, like any of those kind of groups, you know, I think it's essential to at least have a presence there and be part of the community. And, you know, I think your instincts are right on the money, as far as like, you know, like Instagram and, you know, like Snapchat. And, you know, I have to learn like I every day, like I ask our intern, not every day, not every day. You know, I don't want because, because it's a big ask, but like, at least once a week, I can say that honestly. Like, I asked our intern, who's 24 years old, to tell me, like, something new about Snapchat. Like, what do I not know about Snapchat? Or, what do I need to like, what's a new thing on Instagram that I need to be aware of? Or, you know, because I don't know all that, and it's hard to, like, keep track of all that stuff, you know, you're not going to get it, you know, just by getting a couple e newsletters from, you know, social media business, you know, like, or, or whatever, right? It's like, I feel like it comes like, you know, it's like, face to face, kind of like, tell me what I don't know. And I feel like that, you know, applies to anything. You know, I think it's just the right way to to learn and stay in the mix.

Speaker 1 37:27
Yeah, very true, you know. Because when I see social media strategies for filmmakers, you know, usually what they try to do is they just say, Listen, you know, well, you know, they'll do it themselves. They'll crowd. You know, when they're crowdfunding, they try to do that themselves. And you're like, Yeah, you know, I'll answer as it comes in. And, you know, one of the things that I've always said is, you know, you need to have a better plan than that. Sort of like, Oh, yeah. It's sort of like, if, you know, hey, if something bad happens, you know, on production, you know, we'll, we'll figure out a way, who forget planning, forget all that, that pre planning stuff, who needs it?

Brad Wilke 38:00
Yeah, yeah, you know. And that's just a recipe for disaster.

Dave Bullis 38:04
Yes. And, you know, and that's very true. And you know, you know, as we're talking about, you know, social strategies, you know, you've worked with a lot of, you know, really great companies. You work with HBO, and you've also worked with one of my favorites, which, which is draft house films. Oh, yeah. And, you know, so, you know, how did you end up, you know, meeting with some of these companies and getting to work with them.

Brad Wilke 38:25
So, you know, in HBO case, it was just a referral word of mouth, like, we haven't really, you know, smart house creative hasn't really done any advertising yet, other than, like, some promoted posts on Facebook and some, you know, like some Facebook ads, but not more than, I think, like $250 total over, you know, recently, and we're that's changing in January, like, we're sponsoring a party at Sundance. And like, I mean, like January and like 2016 forward is more like, you know, we're gonna take a more far as like, marketing goes for us. We had been mostly focusing on content marketing. We still will be, but we're going to do a little bit more traditional kind of marketing as well. So, you know, but up until then, it was just word of word of mouth. So, you know, just they, HBO was doing a big premiere for one of their their shows, looking here in Seattle. And one of our clients is $3 bill cinema, which is the LGBTQ film nonprofit film organization. They produce the Seattle lesbian and gay Film Festival, so we've been working them, with them for two years. And, you know, we're like their agency of record now. And so it was like, Hey, we're gonna do this. We're gonna do something with $3 bill. Like, how do we pull this off? And that was just like, Okay, you guys gotta work with smart house. And so we did, like, a kind of a live tweet tour with one of the stars from looking all over Capitol Hill, going to, like, gay friendly businesses, and just, you know, just like just being in the community, it was a lot of fun, and that was a great, great experience. And then with draft house, that relationship developed, because we had been, I had been doing the social media and kind of, like broad general, you know, kind of digital strategy for Amira and Sam, which I mentioned earlier, Director Sean Mullen, West Point grad, so, you know, that was just like, a really nice fit. That was like, I'm gonna, you know, help these guys out on their film. It's and then that was before they even got distribution from draft house. Like that was still like, as they were, kind of like on the festival circuit. And then when that happened, it became like a, you know, now it's like, Let's rally the, you know, circle the wagons. How are we gonna so it was really great working with draft house. We had a, you know, many more resources, and lot of people in the mix. And, you know, there was a, you know, some like, controversy about some of the costumes in the film, like with the hijab and how it was worn with Amir's character. And, you know, so there was, like, some, like, you know, sort of like, PR style, crisis control. And, like, it was, it was really interesting. There was a lot, like, I learned a lot from that whole, you know, because they were, you know, doing some tug screenings and doing some, you know. And one of the actors in the film, in a supporting role is Paul Wesley, who's in the Vampire Diaries. And, you know, I wasn't aware really, of how big of a star he was on, you know, in general, but especially on social media. But his Twitter following is like, it's, you know, probably close to 4 million people by now. I think it was like 3.6 million or something at the time. So anytime we would tweet something that he would either retweet, you know, like that he interacted with somehow it would just, like, just drive engagement through the roof. And people, like, if you were to retweet a tweet about, like, signing up for Amir and Sam's e newsletter, people would be retweeting and favoring that tweet. Like, you know, I would say, like, at least, probably a month after it was originally sent out. So, you know, it's just, it's just crazy, and that really, to me, like, demonstrates, you know, kind of the power of social media and, you know, kind of thinking about you, you know, how that integrates into your casting strategy. Because I think in the past, you know, it used to be about, you know, sort of the, what is the international sales or the bankability of a star overseas. So it's like, Can this star make money for us? And we, you know, pre sales overseas or something. I think that's still, you know, part of the equation. But I think now, if you had two actors, and they were both, you know, two, two, like lead female role, right? And they're, both great and, you know, everything else is equal, but one of them has 2 million Twitter followers and one has, like, or isn't on Twitter as, like, 100 or, you know, just doesn't focus on social media. And I said, like, everything else is equal, like, there's not, like, a difference in talent or anything. I absolutely would hire the one with 2 million Twitter followers, because that is going to come and, you know, into play when the film is on the festival circuit, when it's in release, and it's going to make a difference. So, you know, I think all that stuff is now, you know, we're starting to see that built into some of the strategies. But that's kind of like how that, you know, that whole part of that, you know, came together.

Speaker 1 43:40
Yeah, you know, I was talking about crowdfunding before with some podcast guests, and one of the you know, crowdfunding, you know, specialists actually said that's one of the things he always looks at was, you know, he talks to the directors, talks to the producers, and says, you know, whoever you have casted in this film, I would like to see their social media platform as well. Because, you know, there's some people who say, No, I'm not on social media at all. And then there's others who, you know, some actors and actresses who take it upon themselves and like, look, we got to promote ourselves. So they have the Instagram, they have the Twitter, they have the Facebook, and they have a pretty good, you know, a pretty good following. And you're just, just to go back to Gary Vaynerchuk, you know, one thing again, he one thing he also said, was width versus depth. And he said, you know, likes and comments and you know, retweets are all width. And he said, the depth is where you come in, where you have like, that engagement, and then you have that conversion rate of them signing up for newsletters and everything else. And one thing I took away from it is, he said, Go one inch wide and a mile deep.

Brad Wilke 44:40
I like that. Yeah. I've heard similar, yeah. I mean, I couldn't agree more with that, you know, sort of general philosophy about, you know, like really finding, I mean, it speaks, I don't know if it was fan or Chuck who, who said this or or who this was. Maybe it was Seth Godin or somebody like that, but, like, the idea of true fans. Is like finding those true fans that are out there, your ambassadors, like your like with the movie that smart house just acquired, called chatty caddies. Like, I feel like there are people out there that love, love, love this movie, and they're going to be great ambassadors for the film. And there are people that love, love, love, love, cats, obviously. And when those two kind of Venn diagrams overlap, I feel like there's the potential, at least, for, you know, that sort of like alchemy, you know, alchemy that happens sometimes with social media, where it becomes like people start sharing stuff and talking about stuff, and I think it's going to be, you know, potentially divisive film, like, you know, it won the Jury Prize at Sif and sold out its screenings and but some people were still like, oh, that movie. Like, I talking cats, like, I just don't, you know. So people didn't like it at all, whereas other people thought it was the best thing they ever and that, to me, is like, a really good sign. And that speaks to what we just talked about earlier in the podcast, you know, when you said about, like, Forget Sid, hey, you know, you either want people to love something or hate something. You don't want them to be indifferent or ambivalent. And I think that is really key, especially when it comes to distribution.

Speaker 1 46:15
So, you know, Brian, one of the other questions, you know, I had for you was, you know, how do filmmakers, you know, approach smart house creative you know, do you sort of find them, or do they find you? Or is it like a mixture of both?

Brad Wilke 46:28
Well, I think because we're so new in the space that it's more us finding them. Because, like I said, I see a lot of movies sort of in the, you know, the film equivalent of galleys for publishing. And, you know, these are picture lock or rough cuts. And you get a good like, it's a, you know, you can evaluate, you know, I feel like, feel pretty good, like, with my gut instinct about being able, like, once a film has its picture locked, you know, I don't care if it's missing, you know, doesn't have color correction, doesn't have finished sound, it's got a temp score, all these other things, like, you know, that doesn't matter, because the story is there, and if the story is not going to change, you know, I feel pretty confident saying I can evaluate, you know, the film on its merits, those most Important merits the story. So, you know, up until now, you know, it's been like, there's just, like a, you know, sort of like a wealth of films. But I think, like, once chatty caddies gets out, and I think once you know that that other film that we produced in house called 13 chambers, which is a genre, kind of supernatural anthology, directed by 13 different female filmmakers from the Seattle area, which I'm super excited about. I've seen some early rough cuts of those films, and they're just blowing my mind. Like, so, so excited to see that, like, see the rest of them. But it's, it's kind of a great, yeah, it's great. It's like, Christmas, Christmas morning. Every time, like, a new filmmaker brings in the computer with the rough cuttings, like, All right, here, here's what I got so far. And it's like, oh my gosh, show me more. I can't wait to see the rest, you know. So, like, we'll be releasing that one ourselves as well. And, you know, it's like, once you I think, understand, sort of like the infrastructure, and have, you know, some some trusted guides in place to help navigate that landscape. Because, you know, it's sort of like the wild west right now with film distribution. So, you know, what I would like is for smart house to, you know, sort of develop into, you know, what might be considered, like the filmmakers, distributor and, you know, I kind of see, you know, like the deal that we worked out with chatty caddies, you know, we, we have an ownership stake in the film. Smart House does so, you know, there's no agency problem. It's not like, we're just like, you know, licensing it, and we're gonna, you know, distribute it, and as soon as it, you know, like, it becomes part of our cattle, like it's like we're in it for the long haul, and we're working very closely with the filmmakers. And, you know, the quote that Pablo Valencia, who's the CO writer and director of the film, you know, gave for the indie wire article, like, you know, when I, when he first sent that to me, I was like, blushing, because I was like, Oh my gosh, like, I, you know, it was, it was like, really, like, that's, but that's exactly like, what I wanted, you know, to convey to film is, like, this is a home for filmmakers. Because, as a filmmaker myself, you know, or producer like, in that kind of space. I know how difficult it is, and I know how unfair a lot of you know the deals are that are offered to a lot of filmmakers, which is what drives them honestly, like and truthfully into a DIY release, or into like, a kind of like a hit. Hastily cobbled together. you know, sort of like, let's just get this out there. And, you know, it's like, they're kind of left hanging. And so I think eventually, like, you know, I'm like, you know, as far as, like, how to, you know, I would love for filmmakers to send us their, you know, their, their films that, you know, the picture, lock stage and, you know, we can evaluate it. But I think we're going to be very, very, you know, we're still sort of like, chatty caddies. I think is a really interesting, you know, sort of a model template for what a smart house film looks like. And Ryan, my business partner, and I, you know, talk at length about what does a smart house film look like. And it's one of those things where it's like, well, we'll know when we see it. But also, you know, it's, it's not something that you could it's not like a carbon copy or an imitation of what's playing at the multiplex. Because then, you know, people like, there's not like, a moral imperative necessarily to go see an independent film. It's not like, that's like a marketing hook for anyone, you know, unfortunately, you know, for you know, I don't mean to burst in anyone's bubbles, but I'm just saying, like, you know, my parents in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, like, don't give a care if it's an independent film or not. They don't care how it was made. They just care if it's a good movie that they want to see. So, you know, by trying to find movies that you know are comparable to, you know, it's an indie, you know, it's an indie taken three or you know, it's an indie, you know. Insert, you know, Aloha or something, right, like that doesn't, I mean, that doesn't do any good, and I feel like it just kind of sets you up for failure. So it's like, that's why, like, a movie like chatty caddies, which is so like, just, you know, eclectic and risky in my in my opinion, but you know, like I said, it still managed to sell out two screenings and win the Jury Prize at a major film festival that was its world premiere. You know, I feel like, you know, that's like a really, that's like a risk worth taking in my book. And I feel like that's the whole reason to get into film, distribution or filmmaking, is to take those kind of risks because, you know, you don't want to just, like, throw your, you know, like, kind of just be like another voice among, like, a chattering crowd of 1000s of people doing the same thing. It's like, you you know, ideally, like, you want to stand out in a positive way. And, you know, kind of be like a beacon, in a sense, of for, like, what's possible, even if it's not, per, you know, like, you know, there's never going to be that perfect film, or there's never going to be, you know, that sort of, like perfect strategy or whatever. But, you know, again, it's all about learning, and it's about, like, you know, continual, incremental improvement is kind of how I like to look at it. So that's,

Dave Bullis 52:55
And you're right about the online distribution, because, you know, a lot of filmmakers on the previous episode that I had owned, two filmmakers from Canada, and they released their film through VHX. They actually spent, you know, years. They actually finished the film in 2012 and they then spent years going to these distributors and asking, Hey, you know, what do you have for us? And their answer was, well, oh, it's a comedy, okay, who's in it? We don't know any. People forget it. And he and, you know, one of the guys, I think, Bob Woosley, he actually said, you know, one of the things he learned was, if you're going to do a comedy, an indie comedy, you have to have some kind of name, whether it's like a pat and Oswald or, you know, a Bill Murray, you know. But if you do horror, horror is a lot easier to sell.

Brad Wilke 53:46
Yeah, well, that's, you know, that's in no small part why. Like, if we're going to produce a film, our first film, which we did 13 chambers, aligns with the horror genre. Like, you know, that wasn't an accident, and I totally agree with that. And I feel like, you know you can't compromise artistic integrity, but at the same time, you also want to be completely and fully aware of the realities of the marketplace. And I think that's like, what often happens is you either have one or the other. You've got a producer who just cares about product, and, you know, so they create something that's kind of a cookie cutter thing. Maybe it'll make money, which is good, but it's not really adding anything to the artistic conversation. And then, on the other hand, you've got, you know, a filmmaker that is just only cares about, you know, his or her vision, and doesn't necessarily take into account that film exists in a commercial marketplace. You know, it's, it's not like an art museum or, you know, unless you're making like a 12 hour experimental, you know, kind of perform, you know, visual art thing, which is fine, go ahead and do it, if you can find somebody to pay for, you know, like you. I'm trying to remember the, maybe it's Christian Barclay. I don't remember the exact name of the person, but the artist who made that 24 hour film, the clock, you know, I think, like that consists of just like, you know, images of time in film. Like, that's fat. I would love to see that. And people pay huge amounts of money to have it screened and to own a print of it, and it's kind of a one of a kind thing. But, you know, outside of those like examples, or like a Matthew Barney, you know, sort of like hybrid experimental slash, just weirdo experiments, those opportunities don't exist for most independent, if not all independent filmmakers. So you got to find that balance point. You have to find that sweet spot. And it's tough. You know, I'm not saying that I or smart house, or, you know, anybody that I know has, like, the solution or the perfect solution, or it's like, I feel like we're all learning, but I feel like the more that we're able to share through, you know, through channels like social media, or being on a podcast like this, or, you know, connecting at a film festival or something like that, you know, kind of share what we've learned and the experiences like, I feel like that's going to help, you know, the next project that somebody makes, or two projects down The road, you know, I think you're going to see that sort of cumulative positive impact. But that's what, you know, that's what I hope for at least. But, you know, it's tough independent filmmaking, like anything right now is, it's like, just, like a tough, tough world, like it's just, you know, it just, is just, you got to be a real scrapper. You got to be a real Hustler, I guess, you know, in a positive, you know, like, not like, where you're like, scamming somebody, but where you're just, like, always, like, trying to, like, make an improvement somewhere.

Speaker 1 56:54
Yeah, I concur. I also, you know, Brett, I have a feeling that in the next coming years, I think everything's gonna come back on the upswing. I just have this feeling I can just see the economy improving here and there, you know, I think it's, it's gonna come back. And I think the people are gonna have a lot more disposable income, you know, hopefully some of this stuff will will, you know, be eased up so, you know, but at least, that's my hope. That'd be great. So you know, Brad, I know you know we've been talking for almost an hour, and I know you're busy. I had one fan question come in that I really wanted to make sure to ask you particularly. This is actually from Bob Woosley, who I just was mentioning about, who was on the podcast episode before you. And he said, sorry. His question is, with so many platforms out there, where do you start when planning a social media strategy?

Brad Wilke 57:50
Well, you know, that is a great question. And so, so here's like, that's so I want to, like, actually, like, give a legitimate response to this that somebody could actually, you know, take action on in a practical kind of way. So I think the first thing you have to figure out is, like, the first response is, it depends, and it really does, and it depends on your project, it depends on your audience. And I feel like you have to really know your project very, very well. So if you're the filmmaker, the producer, it's like, that should, you should. So that's good. You've got that information already, and then based on, like, what you learned from your crowdfunding campaign if you did one, or what you've learned from, you know, sort of like Work in Progress screenings, if you've done any of those, which I, you know, find to be, like, very helpful. You know, not like we have to have, like, a formal audience feedback survey kind of thing, but it's more like, you know, friends and family or trusted advisors, you know, or you know, kind of confidant kind of thing. And you know, it's like you're figuring out, like, what your audience looks like and and who they are, you know, or like, what who they might align with, you know, out in the world, right? Like maybe developing some personas. And, you know, then I then, I think it really comes down to how much capacity you have to manage each of these channels. Because, you know, each of the channels, like, the worst thing you could do is, you know, set it up so that whatever you post on Facebook also gets automatically tweeted, which also, you know, you know, you take a picture and post it on Instagram, and then you also just like, say like, you know, hit all those buttons that say like, post to Facebook and post to Twitter and post to something like, it's like, that's like, the absolute wrong way to do it. And that's a good indicator that you're like, stretch too thin and you want to, like, really focus on, you know, one or two channels. And before I go into more about that, and I want to make this like a huge like, you know, mini class or something like that. But, you know, I think you can get a lot of traction out of a hashtag. So for instance, like, I'll say, like, I'll kind of like, give like, a case study style example here with our film 13 chambers. So in that case, like, you know, it would be real easy to say, like, Oh, we're going to, you know, we're going to make a Facebook page for this movie, and then we're going to make a Twitter account for this movie, because people are going to want to follow it. We're going to make a Instagram account because, you know, we have to have a presence on all these different places, right? Well, you know, if you already have an established, you know, like, the filmmaker has an established presence, or the actors do, or, you know, the company who produced it does, like, if all those things are already in place. And one of the things that we talk about a lot at Smart House is this kind of idea of filmmaker first. So, you know, so, like in Bob's case, it's more about positioning him as a filmmaker who has multiple projects, you know, in the pipeline. He's got this one that he's working on right now, but, you know, there's two more coming down the pike, and it's really, you know, neck and neck, which one's going to get made. But you know, it's filmmaker first, because those projects have a limited shelf life. Whereas, you know, Bob's career is going to, hopefully, you know, be, you know, much longer lasting than any one single project. So, you know, based on that, you know, I would say like, you know, for 13 chambers, like we're doing most of our engagement via the hashtag. So anytime, like, I personally tweet anything, or Smart House does, or one of the filmmakers, or whatever, we just make sure we include the hashtag. And then you could go on to apps, or, you know, platforms like tag board or hash edit, there's, there's, like, a whole bunch, if you search like hashtag, like search engines, and what they'll do is you can embed this then in your website. Or, you know, you know, because I think every film should definitely have a website, like, you need to have a website so, like, you know, and you know that's like, sort of like, because eventually you're going to want to embed your VOD, you know, kind of Vimeo on demand, or VHX, or gum road, or if you do it through quiver. Like, I mean, there's all these options, right? But you want to have your like, you want to have like, a an anchor. And I think, you know, the film's website should be the anchor. Now, if that is the filmmaker and like, then it could be like, you know, Bob woolsey.com, backslash film title, right? Like, it doesn't like. You don't have to create brand new things for every single project that you do. You should try to, like, integrate them. And this is where the digital strategy comes into play. Integrate them as well, as well as you can and as smartly as you can. So again, it's like, so for 13 chambers, right? We're gonna have a website, 13 chambers movie, and then the film eventually, like, after, you know, we'll try to do a theatrical release, to whatever the extent that we are able to, you know, through independent film theaters and everything. And then once that revenue stream has diminished to a certain point, then we'll make it available through our website, through the filmmakers websites, you know, everywhere you can embed. Because I found actually that, like, one of the key like, the leading indicators, I think, for like, all the data that you can get through Vimeo on demand is the number of times that the embedded player, like the trailer gets loaded, is seems to be at least indicative of a higher like, I'm not so, you know, I'm not a statistician, but I do understand statistics. So I'm not saying, you know that this correlation means causation, right? Like, it's, you got to take it all with a grain of salt. But the more times that the embedded player gets loaded, you know, like when, when those are the highest, those numbers are the highest. It's also, you know, correlates to a higher number of sales or rentals. So, so I think the more places you could have the trailer embedded through the Vimeo, you know, sort of embedded, you know, that code that you can get that that's like, a really strong tactic when it comes to, like, your your online kind of sales strategy so But beyond that, though, all the other social channels that we've already established, my personal Twitter, smart houses, Twitter smart houses, Facebook page, my personal Facebook page. Smart House is Instagram. My personal Instagram smart house is Snapchat, that that's where we're going to be promoting and pushing the film, via the hashtag, 13 chambers, and then kind of aggregating all of that content that's out there to see, you know, what kind of traction we get, and using tools like tweet reach and Topsy. And you know, there's a couple other free ones that are out there that will allow you to. Of see kind of like, who's like, who's talking about the film via this hashtag, and who to follow up with, and what kind of insights you can glean from that. So, you know, as far as it comes to like, picking, you know, a platform like, what I what I would say is like, go with what you already have established, and, excuse me, work the hashtag into it. And if you don't have anything established, then I would say, start with your own personal channels first. So establish yourself on Twitter first. Establish yourself on Instagram first. And then, you know, work the film into that, because that's going to be the sustainable way to do it. And I think a lot of people want to jump in right away and be like, well, we gotta, we gotta create a Twitter handle for this film, and it's got to be, you know, 13 chambers movie, you know, for Twitter. But what that means then is that you also have to like, provide relevant content on that channel for the audience, because if you encourage somebody to follow your 13 chambers twitter handle or Instagram account or whatever, then that audience is going to expect something beyond just, Hey everyone, here's our trailer, here's our poster, here's our you know, Here's where we're playing next on the festival circuit. Hey, guess what? We're available for VOD. Because those are all things that you can say on any channel. Doesn't matter. You can do promoted posts and, you know, ads on any channel, it doesn't have to be a specific film channel. So, you know, I think eventually it gets to a point where you no longer have anything relevant to share about that film that's not redundant and not like, just like, purely promotional, and then people will like, you'll lose that part of your audience, right? Whereas, if you set it up that you are the hub and not the film is the hub, but you as the filmmaker are the hub, and your each of your projects are spokes, and those folks look more like hashtags and actual accounts, then I think what you start doing is you start developing a sustainable framework for, you know, sort of this, you know, sort of new, you know, digital first, and you know, sort of like new landscape that We're that it's very fragmented. It's very fractured. And it's, it's, it's ever changing. So, you know, and this is all part of, like, a presentation I gave at the Portland Film Festival in September this past, this couple months ago, and that we're also giving at the wild and scenic Film Festival in January. And it's, it's called, basically, bridging the indie gap. And the idea is, it's a practical guide for, you know, independent filmmakers and artists. You don't necessarily have to be a filmmaker. This could apply for a musician or a, you know, a visual artist or whatever, whatever that person's doing really practical steps, kind of like what I'm talking about here. So it's not like a, you know, it's not like a loss leader or content marketing thing, you know, it's going to be, you know, it's going to end up eventually as an ebook that, you know, I'll sell, you know, through, you know, smart house will sell for like, 399 or something. And, you know, $3.99 by the way. And it's something that like, if you know, you're a filmmaker in Nebraska who has no connections, and you're just like, What do I do? Now, you know, maybe you can't afford to hire somebody like smart house, but you could buy this ebook for 399 that will have, like, all these templates and all these things that if you take the time to implement them like it'll at least put you in the ballpark for being successful with what you're trying to do, and, you know, lay the groundwork for that, that sort of eventual success, because there is no overnight sort of, like social media success for like, 99% of the people. So, so never think of yourself as the outlier. You should always think of yourself as, like, the average case. And like that. Will, I think, you know, help you succeed and prepare you for the realities of what that might look like. You know, much better than if you think that you're going to be the person who finances their independent film on their credit card and then sells it at Sundance to Harvey Weinstein,

Dave Bullis 1:09:16
You know, just to sort of put a period at the end of that, too. I, you know, some people I know have actually bought followers on social media. So what they'll do is, you know, they'll set it up on, like a Sunday, and all of a sudden, you know, the next week, they've got 10,000 followers. And at first, I was like, how did you do this? And they said, Oh, you know, we did a little bit of this and that. And then finally, finally, you know, I asked them. They admitted, okay, we paid for somebody on Fiverr to, you know, follow us with, you know, 1000 or 10,000 bot accounts that are just, you know, they're not real. There's nothing behind them. They're just, there's a photo, a generated username that and the photo was found by a program which just finds photos, plops it in there, and none of this is a real engagement. So now you know, whatever they do, never whatever they send out, nobody even sees it. It's just, it's literally like putting it up there for a bunch of automated bots to see.

Brad Wilke 1:10:18
Yeah, no, exactly. And I think that's a great example of quality versus quantity. And I'm always amazed by like, when I see, like, you know, accounts with like, lots and lots of followers, you know, like, if you ever look at this, isn't every account with a lot of followers, but you know, just like, do like, a little, you know, anecdotal kind of survey. You know, you see somebody who's got like, 10,000 followers or this or that, like, and then you like, you look at their tweets and like, there's no interaction or engagement at all on any of their tweets, like nobody's even liking something, much less responding, replying or retweeting or whatever, right? And, you know, I think it's foolish, like, we always tell our clients, like, when you're looking at social media metrics, and that's, you know, something else that I think is really important is it's not just about, you know, good content, or, you know, community engagement in the sense of, like, community management, like, where you're like, Hey, I'm just, like, a fun person, and I'm, You know, I'm good on social media, like you really have to see, like, what are the metrics and what are the goals that you're trying to achieve through this engagement and through this content, and you know what kind of tactics that you're trying and you know you never want to look at gross numbers without somehow filtering them. And I feel like you always want to look at rates, and you always want to look at per capita kind of interactions, and you'll find that, like, organizations or brands or people that have huge followers almost always have, like, really, really paltry rates of engagement, because there just isn't, you know, people follow like, I don't know why I would follow like, I don't mean to pick on Pepsi, but like, why I would follow Pepsi or Walmart or, like, why would follow like, a major brand? I don't, I don't know what the incentive is, really, you know, even if there's, like, a chance for quote, unquote good deals, or, you know, whatever, right, it's like, so these brands have these huge like, and I guarantee you like, I know as a fact, like most huge brands on Facebook and like, they're constantly promoting every single post, like, paying to boost the posts and paying for ads. Like, like, you know, organic engagement on Facebook especially is really, really low, and it's hard to come by, and, you know, you got to have a really focused audience to do it and to make it work. So, yeah, so I think, you know, anybody who looks at kind of like, you know, the I've got a great, you know, I guess, like, your example is perfect, like, but I feel like there's, you know, a number of examples like that where, you know, people get hung up on the number, the volume, and they forget about, sort of the the whole reason, like the goal that they should be aiming at, and that's to get people actually care about whatever it is that they're working on or doing and not saying. Like, you know, it's like the person who has 100 followers, but 50 of them are engaged, compared to a person who has 10,000 followers, and 25 of them are engaged. You know, most people would say, Oh, well, this person with 10,000 followers, they're obviously doing something right. I have to, like, you know, listen to their wise counsel, or listen to, you know, give them my money or do whatever, right? I have to follow them, right? Whereas the person with 100 followers with 50 engaged, you know, that's the one that's going to slip through the cracks, but that's where the real engagement is happening. And that's, you know, maybe one of those followers is a, you know, maybe 10 of those followers are studio executives. And, you know, whatever that person tweets becomes, you know, ends up in the Hollywood Reporter next week, or, you know, like, so there's all sorts of different influence, you know, levels and types of influence on online. So, yeah, I think what you described is a great example of, like, you know, be cautious and be skeptical about, you know, social media.

Speaker 1 1:14:24
And I remember when I, when I a couple years ago, when I was getting into crowdfunding, a person I was talking to actually said, you know, there was a a case called the soldier boy case, which was, soldier boy is a rapper, and he had like, three, 4 million followers, so on Twitter. And when his, you know, new CD was coming out, they're like, well, this thing's gonna obviously be number one because, you know, he's tweeting about it constantly. It came out the album, and it didn't do anywhere near what they thought. And they said, Wait a minute, how does this guy with 4 million guys? Uh, followers. How does he not have, uh, you know, the number one album and they thought was a piracy? Well, not really. They looked, you know, they they didn't think it was that they did. They ended up deciding that it was. They're more interested in hearing about, like, his thoughts about rat beefs and other lyrics and this and that than they are about his new album. Yeah, right. And so all of that was, you know, sort of for naught. And, you know, and there are, you know, people that are obsessed with this vanity analytics. There's vanity metrics, you know. Oh, I've got, you know, 20,000 Twitter followers, you know, I actually did a crowdfunding webinar. I used to do it more regularly, but we haven't done it in a while. We actually did a crowdfunding webinar. It was free, it was on a Google Hangout, and somebody actually said, hey, you know, we have the star that we've signed. She's an actress, and, you know, she's got a huge social media, social media following, but she but, but we don't get a lot of conversions, and we, and we looked at her photos, and basically it's a lot of, you know, modeling lingerie type stuff that, you know, guys follow her to see that so they can hit like or to, you know, retweet or tell her how hot she is. They're not there to sort of, you know, invest in any of her projects or buy any of her other stuff. They just want to, you know, be there clicking on that stuff.

Brad Wilke 1:16:19
Sure, yeah, yep, yeah. And I think that's, you know, sort of, again, like, sort of that, like, you know, the the fallacy of, you know, social media, like, the silver bullet of social media, it's, it's not going to solve all your problems. Like, I think you got to use it effectively. And I think there are great ways to use it effectively. And I think, I actually think Facebook ads are, like, a really effective way, especially if you know, like, you are able to target them, and you can get your you know, your you know, like, your click rates, like, as far as, like, how much you're paying for clicks, you know, down, like an always like driving, you know, people like so it's not like you're paying for impressions, but you're actually, like, driving to an actual goal and putting a pixel on the site. So you know, when you're converting like, all these things which like are like, actually like, take like, some thought process, and you know, that's where the real value can be had and the real value can be added. But so many people aren't willing, really to take, or even to like, think about the need for that, or like, why you have to connect all those dots for, like, a proper social media strategy, or an overall digital strategy, like how all those pieces fit together. So it's not rocket science, but I feel like it definitely requires somebody on your team. It doesn't have to be a paid consultant, but it has, like, if somebody should, like, really think about it, usually producer in most cases, but you know that doesn't usually happen. So then it, you know, when a film gets its first festival acceptance, or, you know, they're going to try a DIY release, or they've got a distributor that's like, going to quote, unquote, distribute them, but they're not going to put any money or effort toward, you know, marketing or promoting that. And it's, you know, it's really up to the filmmaker. So you know, what are you going to do then, like you like, these are all questions that will eventually come to like, you know, bear like, they will eventually, like, have an impact on you. So you might as well think about them and figure them out in the beginning and then realize, well, we don't need this. We need this. We got to put more money in toward this. We don't have enough for this. Put it in your budget instead of, like, being at the end when you cross the finish line, because you've completed your film, when you realize that it's just like the first lap that you're like, all of a sudden, like, oh, we have three more laps that we have to run with this film, and we have no money left, and everybody had burned out, and we've called in all our favors, then who's going to see your movie? And that's just the reality, because there's so much content being produced, and the means of production are so like, the bar is so low for people to get something made. And you know, there's just a flood of bad stuff out there. And, you know, if you've got a good movie, people should be able to see it. And that's, you know, it's not, you know, on an audience, because you can't expect them to search everything out. Like, if you just put your movie on VHX or on Vimeo, man, and be like, All right, there it is, like, I've leveled the playing field. Well, that's like, the first step, like you got to show people like you got to lead people to that content, and you've got to encourage them. You've got to convert them, and you've got to turn them into fans, and you've got to, you know, bring them along for your next project. And, you know, show them some value and give, you know, provide, you know, you know, community value, and you know, all that stuff. So it's, you know, if you think about it too much, it can seem overwhelming, but, you know, that's kind of like, what these conversations are about is to, you know, hopefully try to, like, break it down so that somebody's like, Okay, if I approach it from, you know, this logical step by step kind of thing, it's like, it's not as overwhelming or as crazy as it sounds. It actually can be done by somebody who's just getting you know, but maybe that's not the filmmaker, but maybe it's you know, as a student intern, or maybe it's your you know, uncles, you know, your cousin, or whatever it's like, who's you know, 23 years old, and knows everything about Snapchat, and that's where you're going to find your biggest audience. So anyway, you know, we could probably go on and on.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:33
You know, we could go on and on. Because I was just going to say, you know, one of the things that I realized from crowdfunding my last film was I would definitely and for the next time I plan to crowdfund, I have a team in mind. And one of the things is, you know, obviously I'll sort of be like, you know, the dictator, but, but you know, you got to have, you know, a person who's in charge of the crowdfunding campaign. You also have to have a person who's in charge of the social media. And then from that person, I would put like, one person's in charge of Twitter, I have a person in charge of Facebook, have a person in charge of Instagram, and if you can't, let's just say you can't build that dream team. You can't pay everybody you know. That's excellent advice. You had just find somebody you know who maybe will work for free, or who's a relative, a friend you know, somebody who bumped it on the street, and maybe they can help you out in some way you may. And maybe you can offer them something on, you know, however you want to compensate them, you know. I mean, you know, it's, it takes a village to raise a child, right Brad?

Brad Wilke 1:21:32
Oh, yeah, that's for sure. Yep, yeah. I think that's absolutely true all that stuff you just said. And it's like, yeah, it's never going to be your perfect team. It's never, you know, you're all, you know, your plan is never going to be perfect. And once you implement it, and you start executing it, half of it's going to go out the window because something changes, or somebody gets sick, or what, you know, you just kind of just be like, prepared, and just move on and, you know, just make it work somehow. And if it doesn't work, then, you know, set that project aside and focus on the next one. Like, like, I have a very like, sort of like, you know, just, I'm not too precious about any one project or any one sort of thing, because I know that so many things influence the success or failure of those projects that you know, you just have to focus on the things that you can control, hope for some good luck on the things that you can't. And then just really, you know, without sounding too pollyannish about it, but like, just try to stay positive about it, through the whole, through the whole process. And you know, and you'll find like, even if the project doesn't succeed, or like, something gets goes wrong midway, or whatever, like, you may find that some of your collaborators that you brought on board end up being, you know, key team members in the next project, or you help, you know, it's like you just never know. And I think that's kind of like one of the really cool things about a lot of this randomness that we kind of discuss is that you just never know, so you should always be open to those possibilities.

Speaker 1 1:23:10
Some of those struggles could maybe lead to a better opportunity or lead to a better discovery. There was a book I was actually just reading. I have to finish reading it called the obstacle is the way by Ryan Holiday, and you're interested, yeah, and that's what it's all about. The New England Patriots actually distributed that to all their players this year, and to teach them all about, you know, adversity and everything else. And you know that they do pretty well in football. Yeah, right. You know, Brad, sometime, you know, I hopefully we can sit down again. I can have you back on the show, if be willing to come back.

Brad Wilke 1:23:45
Oh, for sure. I'm actually, I feel like I'm losing my voice right now, so I'd love to come back. That'd be great.

Dave Bullis 1:23:51
Oh, excellent. So, Brad, where do you find you out online?

Brad Wilke 1:23:54
So you can find, you know, smart houses, at smarthousecreative.com All one word, just as it's, you know, spelled normally. I'm on Twitter at J, B, W, I, L, K, E, smart house is on Twitter and Instagram at Team smart house, and I'm also on Instagram at JB, Wilkie, that's another, you know, just one more little piece of advice is, if you can, can, can standardize all of your handles so that like, people don't have to, like, remember, three different handles across your Twitter, Instagram, you know, whatever else you might have like, try to like, if you can make them the same thing. So it's not like he takes a lot of the guesswork out of the whole process of somebody who's trying to tag you at a conference or at a Q and A or whatever. So, you know. And then, you know, smart house is on Facebook, and, you know, you can find us. We have a blog to where we do a lot of, you know, guest posts from people like filmmakers, talk about their experiences. And, you know, we so anyway, that's, you know, we're out there, like, I'm usually not, like, I'm a good promoter. But I sometimes like, I'm just like, you know, if you're interested, like, you'll be able to find us just team smart house, smart house creative. JB Wilkie, but yeah, I encourage like, and would actually welcome anybody to tweet questions at me on, you know, on Twitter, or to, you know, email. Brad, Oh, yeah. I mean, that's, you know, another great way. Brad, brad@[email protected]. Is my email address so, you know, if anybody was listening, has, you know, questions that I might be able to answer, like in an email or by, you know, sharing a link to something. You know, please get in touch. You know, like, I feel like I'm always, like, trying to, you know, broaden that community and, you know, and do you know, help out if I can in, you know, those, like, really minor kind of ways, but you know, so yeah, tweet me your questions, email your questions, and, you know, really do my best to get you some, some actual, like, practical answers.

Dave Bullis 1:25:52
So Brad, I want to say thank you very much for coming on. This has been a fantastic episode for all those people who were, you know, confused about social media and all that other you know, digital, the digital media. I hopefully, you know, they listen to this, and I hope they gained a lot, you know, from this, you know, or listen to it again, everybody, if you're still, you know, if you're still not quite sure, because Brad said a lot of key points in this interview that I can't, I can't stress enough of how to build that digital market.

Brad Wilke 1:26:23
Well, you know, glad, glad to and I'm, you know, I really, like, I said, like, trying to be as practical and as, like, you know, straightforward and clear as possible. So because I feel like there's a lot of like, you know, anyway, we'll save that for the next episode.

Dave Bullis 1:26:36
Have a great night, buddy, and I wish you the best.

Brad Wilke 1:26:39
All right. Thanks a lot, Dave.

Dave Bullis 1:26:41
Anytime buddy, take care.