IFH 813: Building Films from Scratch: Mastering Microbudget Movie-Making with Evan Kidd

Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host, Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
Our next guest, we talk a lot about team building, and how do you find those reliable people? How do you find people that you know, you can collaborate with, you know. And we also talk a lot about resource based filmmaking, you know, aka the Rodriguez list, because you shouldn't make, no if you're gonna make a film, I'm not talking about a student film. I if you're gonna make a film nowadays, and you know, you don't have a bunch of money in the bank, you know, you're not gonna be able to find some VC who's just gonna, you know, money drop a million dollars in your bank account. What you should do is, you know, use what resources you have to make a film. Don't make a colossal space movie or some action movie like a la John Wu, it's just gonna end up blowing up in your face. And I and take it from personal experience. I it has blown up in my face before when I've tried to just shoot from the moon and you end up with a with a half done movie that the effects don't look good enough. You know, a movie that comes to mind is, is primer. Have you ever seen primer? You know, it's, it's a whole movie about time travel, and the guy shot at Shane karut shot of like, $7,000 and it's, it's very well done. It's a very cerebral movie, but it just shows what you can do with the right resources in the right script. But speak of the right resources in the right script. You know, my next guest, we're gonna be talking about just that. We're gonna be talking about all of this stuff. And it is a phenomenal, phenomenal for conversation with guests Evan Kidd. Hey, Evan, thanks a lot for coming on the show.

Evan Kidd 3:24
Hey, thanks for having me man.

Dave Bullis 3:27
Hey, my pleasure Evan, you know, it's a question I always ask everybody. It's a question I just always begin every interview with, and that question is, Evan, what got you started in the film industry?

Evan Kidd 3:38
Think, just a love of the craft of cinema, you know, it's, it's that simple for me. As, you know, other filmmakers have said this before, but, you know, I'm really no different. Like, I grew up around it. We watched a lot of movies in my house growing up, and it was kind of the default if something wasn't going on, you know, parents would put on a movie, we'd watch it. And I just kind of grew up in that culture, you know, I ended up stealing my dad's VHS camera a lot of times. And I was like, three and four years old, and I would, you know, shoot stuff around the house and the pets and, you know, stuff around the neighborhood. So it kind of just grew really naturally. And then when I went, you know, into high school, there was, like, this little, you know, film the morning announcements class, which was really cut and dry, but it gave you access to, you know, tripods and editing software and stuff like that. So I would kind of use that after hours and do what I wanted. And I thought that was cool. And then that was around the time YouTube was really taking off. And so, you know, I think all those things kind of gelled together to propel me into, you know, pursuing it once I got to college. And kind of from there, it's been history. So it's, you know, been pretty natural, but I think it's also been a direct correlation to how, you know, over the years, technology has really allowed more people into the film business. You know, I've never had a huge inkling to just go and direct, you know, Avengers five or whatever. For me, it's always just been about telling a compelling story with, you know. Resources around me, whether that be, you know, cast and crew, or just, you know, the technology that you know so many of us have access to,

Dave Bullis 5:06
Yeah, you know, very true. And, you know, I remember those big VHS cameras, yeah, see, so you and I are kind of sort of around the same age, I mean, but you know, and sometimes some of my guests are a little bit older than I am. So, you know, they didn't have that. They had this, like, the Super Eight, hey, that's what they remember when they were a kid, you know, and, and guys like us, we had the, you know, those big old that looks like a big boom box you put on your shoulder, you couldn't use it for more than five minutes. Or, you know, you'd kill your back and your neck, and, you know, it looked like a bazooka. And, you know, and then, now they went to mini TV, but, yeah, you know, I remember when YouTube first was taking off in like, 2004 2005 Yeah. And I remember just being blown away. And I remember, you know, people were just putting up different stuff, and it was still on the, you know, nobody really talked about it until a few years later, then all of a sudden, it was, like, this freaking Juggernaut,

Evan Kidd 5:53
Exactly. I mean, I remember when it first, you know, launched off. I was like, we can put online video on the internet. And, you know, that time, my parents believe in us, law dial up. So that concept was in like, 2004 Super foreign to me. And so, you know, I would only watch YouTube literally at school, and we weren't even supposed to do that. So, you know, for me, it was like technology was just slowly emerging out of the shell. And then, you know, give it a few months. You know, most everyone, including my family, got, you know, DSL and, you know, faster internet and everything kind of started catching up to what you could do. And for me, that was extremely exciting. And I remember thinking I could just make a movie and put it on YouTube, like, holy shit. That's crazy, like, and, you know, for me, that didn't even seem within the realm of possibility. But, you know, like I was saying, given a little bit of technology, I think that's half the reason I'm able to do what I do, and so many others,

Dave Bullis 6:43
Yeah, totally agree. And, you know, I actually want to get into that too, about, you know, making your film son of clowns, and, you know, working with all the resources you have around you. But I wanted to ask really quickly, did you go to film school?

Evan Kidd 6:55
I did. Yeah, I went to East Carolina University a couple years ago. I graduated from that in Greenville, North Carolina, and it was a great program. I really enjoyed. It definitely taught me a lot. I think it was a lot more of a technical program in terms of how to operate a camera, cut your own stuff like that, than it was, you know, truly trying to craft, you know, screenplays and all that. There was screenwriting classes, but I kind of think it geared more to that. So I did a lot of learning on my own in terms of, you know, the story structure and all that, like, it was definitely there. But I think if you really, really wanted to get the full, you know, breadth of it, I would talk to my professors, and they'd be like, you know, here's this resource. You got to look at it on your own hours, just because it wasn't built into every part of the curriculum. But I would definitely recommend it. It was a great program, and really cut my teeth there for sure. You know, met a lot of the people who would end up helping you make son of clowns and other films like that, but yeah, definitely think that is, you know, important in it. And, you know, at the very least, it gave me the know how, because I also do a lot of documentary work, and so a lot of times in those situations, I don't have as big of a crew as I would, you know, my narrative stuff, and, like, you know, shooting something last last month, and I was literally the only crew member. And it was kind of by design, like, if I really dug around, I could have, you know, probably got a camera operator, sound designer, stuff like that. But it was just such a, you know, sporadic, uh, opportunity, I didn't have time. And so in those occasions, I'm really glad I went to film school, because otherwise I don't know if I'd know how to operate a camera, run sound, you know, kind of do all those technical things. So,

Dave Bullis 8:25
Yeah, you know, that's a question I usually ask. You know, certain people have come on and they said, Dave, Film School is a waste of time. Some people have come on and said, Hey, film school was phenomenal to me. And, you know, and it's, it's something I always go back to, because, you know, our experiences, your perception, equals reality. And you know, if your perception of something is, you know, skewed, or something's perception of something is, hey, listen, my experience was terrible, you know, and my perception of it is, it was totally worthless, you know it, you know, I just ask people to be honest. You know what I mean? And if, and, and I always like hearing people's different experiences, I know my my listeners like hearing different people's experiences about this stuff, because I think it's that's critical, you know what I mean, and it's sort of something you've touched on with what you just said, is also something critical, and that is building a team. And I always ask people, you know, how did you build your team? You know, where did you Where did you guys meet? You know? And you met your whole team through film school,

Evan Kidd 9:15
Yeah, most of them. I did meet a lot of them, couple folks after the fact. But, you know, I think it was that network that really makes Film School invaluable. You know, I've heard a lot of people say, you don't need film school. I've heard a lot of people say, Oh yeah, you got to do it, or else you're screwed. I kind of fall in the middle of the road thinking, you know, obviously I'm a product of a film school, and I went to one, but at the same time, it was a film school that I think, really, you know, kind of forced me to do a lot of outside learning, outside of the program. So I think I kind of good, got a good breadth of, you know, a lot of different options, you know, like I said, I there's this story I always tell. I made this documentary called spaz out a couple years ago, and the project was, you know, out of this documentary class, I was taking an undergradbasically, you had to make this 10 minute documentary over the course of about two months. And it was the story, you know, I was telling, was about this underground punk DIY music scene. And there was, you know, doing shows out of this warehouse. It was super illegal, but there was a lot of, you know, heart in the, you know, people trying to make music happen. And it into me, it felt like a bigger story. So I, you know, wanted to make something longer. I remember talking to my professor, and he was like, Why do you want to make it a bigger story? And I was like, just because I feel like that's the best way to tell it. And he was like, if that's your reason, then go for it. And, you know, I think that has stayed with me, because a lot of times I want to make projects that maybe aren't originally thought of, or aren't originally, you know, in the, you know, quote, unquote guidelines of something. And I think Film School is a, you know, great launching pad. So, you know, I guess I got a little off track. But I would say, you know, coming back around, you know, I think it really depends for each person, like, if you are going to go into extreme debt, and you know, you know, it might kind of mess up your trajectory for the next couple years. And you're pretty self taught. You watch YouTube videos and stuff like that, you may not need that kind of technical guidance, but, you know, again, if you want the resources and the crew base and the, you know, internships and stuff like that, you're not going to get that through YouTube tutorials. So I think it really is kind of something each person needs to weigh individually.

Dave Bullis 11:26
Yeah, that's very true. A friend of mine, you know, he went to, I think, went to NYU. And, you know, Martin screw says he comes in to talk to a class, like, once a semester, whatever. And you know, when he walked in, he was like, holy shit. Martin screw says he just walked in the room and was like, hey, everybody want to talk about film, and it's like, who's gonna, who's gonna say no, first off. And you know what I mean, but it's, but it's, you know that, you know, that's the benefit he got from going to NYU, where, you know, and if you go to USC, I think Steven Spielberg comes in, like, once a semester as well,

Evan Kidd 11:55
Yeah. And, I mean, that's invaluable. I mean, if you're able to get that, how do you pass it up? Like you said, Yeah.

Dave Bullis 12:00
And, but, you know, it's, you know, that's something I want to talk about, too, is you're building your team, you know, and using those resources around you to actually make your film. And want to ask you about building your team. So, you know, Evan, when you were building your team, I don't, maybe did, maybe you didn't, but I don't know if anybody really goes out with that mindset of, hey, you know, I'm going to go today, look for a team that I could put together. I think it sort of happens naturally. It happens organically. And eventually, you know, something clicks in your mind, where you go, Hey, I could work with this person as a producer. You know what I mean? And I think, you know, that's how people sort of build teams, as I found doing this podcast, and even my own experiences in making stuff. So you know, what are some of the qualities, Evan, that you find with your team, that when you were sort of putting them together, when you, when you, you know, made me put that team together to make, son of clowns,

Evan Kidd 12:50
Your team is your backbone, and you are pretty much as made as your team is made, I guess I would say. And so, you know, it's like a sports team. You're the coach, but you want to pick your players. And when you're making something like the way we made my feature film, son of clowns, for example. You know, that was the biggest crew I've ever, you know, had the opportunity to work with up to this point. And, you know, certain days were better than others. You know, certain days we'd have very small crew, like six, seven people. Other days we'd have a bigger crew, a lot of PAs, you know, probably 15/20 and so most everyone in that crew worked for free. No one made money. And that's the thing that's tricky, because when you're in micro budget cinema, like no one cares. Before I made the film, no one cared if I made Sonic clowns, I was the only person that cared. You know, the actors and the crew, but no one else cares. And that's the kind of rough truth that you need to get around, is that you know when you're making your micro budget, no one cares. And once you kind of accept that, and once you say, Okay, people will care once we make it, but like, up until this point, you don't have investors. You're really bankrolling on your own credit card, which is what I did, basically, my mentality was find people who want to a work. Because in that time, the North Carolina film incentives just crashed because of some stupid politics, and so a lot of people were out of jobs, and a lot of people were kind of sitting around anyway. So I was like, well, instead of sitting around, let's all do something. You know, I took a hit from that a lot of other people did. Because by day, I do a lot of crew work, you know, AC stuff like that. And so, you know, for me, it was kind of a situation where, let's make the best out of, you know, something that sucks. And then, you know, I would say on the second thing, when you find crew that are passionate, grab those people, because those are the people you want with you on the battlefield, so to speak, those people will, you know, stay the extra hour. Those people won't mind if you do lunch an hour or two late. You know, those people really just want to get your story. And I'm a, I'm a big believer, and, you know, quote, unquote, working for free. Yeah, no one got paid. I definitely didn't get paid. I went to the red but, you know, it was my movies. I totally understand that. But every other aspect of this production, I said, let me not make it so it costs people money. Okay? So let me fill up the gas tanks. Let me get all their meals covered. You know, let me give them something great for their real let me actually publicize this film. Because I think the thing that happens, and why a lot of people are hesitant to do free work is because they've been burned in the past, and I've had it happen to me. When you you know, work on something for free, I think a lot of times there's this kind of, you know, hesitant notion, which I totally understand, like, I do a lot of crew work for a living. That's how I make a lot of, you know, my money. And for me, like, I will work on a free project, but I have to know where it's going. Will it be sent out to festivals? Because the last thing anyone wants is to work on a film and just have it get burned up on YouTube, get about 100 views, and then no one cares. You know, people want to know they're a part of a project that's going to at least try to go somewhere like, everyone knows it's not guaranteed, but at the very end of the day, there has to be some effort being made. So I tried to be as transparent about that possible with I, you know, the whole cast and crew, you know, I sent them emails for months and months after the fact. You know, we got into this film festival. We're gonna submit here, you know, stuff like that. You know, give everyone their footage promptly so they can put it on a reel that, you know, that kind of thing. Just, just be a decent person. You know, if you can't pay people try to, you know, make all the rest of the filmmakers who don't have a lot of money look good.

Dave Bullis 16:25
Yeah, you know that that's something I agree with too, is I think people have been burned in the past by free work, and it's sort of, you know, maybe they've worked for free for, you know, a person, and it's never been reciprocating. So they kind of say, you know, I, you know, now I'm in the hole now, so to speak. And, you know, I got into, a friend of mine actually teaches, you know, film at a high school, and he and I got into this whole thing before, because we were talking about free work. And, you know, some people say, do it. Some people say, Don't do it. And basically, we all the thing that we have a problem with. Was when I was making my student from films, I said, you know, I need some some help. And some people offer to work for free. Well, they would come on, and then they would sort of act like they don't need to be professional, or act like they need to actually do their job the right way, because, hey, you're not paying me anything. So what the hell is the difference?

Evan Kidd 17:13
Yeah, and I think that's the reason a lot of these people have bad experiences, is because there's a lack of professionality on some free sets. I'm not gonna say all, but, you know, the way I coordinated my set, I would say, and a lot of people told me, it ran very professionally. And a lot of people said they were shocked. You know, both, you know, day players who just had, you know, one scene, they would just come in and out. And you know, people who were there for the long haul too. A lot of people said that. And you know, I guess I could take it as a compliment, but for me, I want that to be the bar like I don't want, I don't want that to be the exception to the rule, you know,

Dave Bullis 17:48
Yeah, and that's the other thing too. You always make sure your sets running good. But again, that's having that team, right? You know, making sure you have a producer who, you know, and if that person is going to be the producer, you know, do you have a UPM, you know? Do you, you know, have a location manager? Do you have, you know, a solid first ad? You know? Do you have a solid cinematographer? Usually, what, you know, when, what I've come across, is when someone's gonna make a project and they have people work for free, usually there's one sexy selling point. And what I mean by that is, usually they have some amazing location they can use, or, you know, some kind of, you know, you know, for instance, I had a friend of mine make a film, and he ended up having a world class cinematographer on there, and he that was a selling point, going, Look, you know, the film is going to look good. And, you know, because we have this cinematographer, and people were actually more interested in joining the project, because they said, hey, if this person is a part of it, you know what? I mean, then it's going to be good, definitely.

Evan Kidd 18:49
I would say, you know, for us, maybe it's kind of half a miracle that we pulled it off. You know, I never had an ad for any of these days. So, I mean, it was I lost my voice so much just because I was doing double duty, you know, with the directing, and especially, there's a scene in here where we had like 40 extras, and majority of them were, you know, kids under the age of eight. So, you know, like I said, trying to get that many people at a it was a party scene. So there was, you know, noise and a whole bunch of stuff. Coordinated is very difficult, but I'm a firm believer, if you know you put something to mind, it truly can happen, as corny as it sounds. Would I do it that way again if I had a choice? No, but you know, I think a lot of times in micro budget cinema, you just got to treat it like it's almost its own separate thing from normal filmmaking, because you know it well. I say that not as a slight to it, but you know, when you get put in these situations, like, for example, another thing that happened during filming, our sound guy got sick on the third day. And, you know, thanks to going to ECU and you had to run a boom, none of our pas had touched it. And I was like, okay, it was our shortest day. I'm gonna have to run this boom. And I was not excited about it, but it was like, everyone came out. We had this restaurant cleared out, and it was the only day we were gonna be able to get in this restaurant. And if we didn't shoot, we're gonna lose the location. And, you know, we wasted a whole bunch of people's time and blah, blah, blah. So, I mean, it's really just rolling with the punches. And, you know, we called it off. I made it work. What again, what I choose to do that? No, but I think when you do work in micro budget, you just kind of have to be flexible. And, you know, definitely, if anyone has ego, I mean, check that shit at the door, because does not even fly like, you know, had I been on a normal set, there would be no way in hell I would touch a boom pole. But in a situation like that where you're making your movie, you know, for me, this was, like, one of the most personal stories I've ever told, you know, in a lot of ways. And so, you know, for me, I just wanted to get the thing made, and so I knew, Okay, I gotta bite the bullet do this, and just kind of roll the punches.

Dave Bullis 21:04
Yeah, ego is something that kid that is very dangerous. And you know, I've been a part of some projects man where, where some people's egos were so unbelievable. And you know, I'm usually sort of the bad cop, like, I'll be the guy. And I don't mean I don't, you know, just, you know, you'll fight fire with fire right away. I just sort of get to take them aside and say, hey guy, you know, maybe we should just tone this down. I think some people, you know, and you know, I mean, I've met some people who are just, I don't know where they get their ego from. It's almost like somebody when they were younger, told them that they were so special and so talented, and they can, everybody else can just go fuck themselves. And then you and then they come to these film sets, and it's like, Hey, I'm here. Let me, you know, real quick, little funny story. I went to a friend of mines film set, and it was about, it was a horror movie, the slasher film, and there was this PA, it was walking around, who thought that he was God's gift to film, and thought he was so derelict, you know, thought he was so misused by being a PA. And I said, Hey, you know, you know, what's this guy's deal? I went to shake his hand. He's kind of looked at me, and I was like, What the fuck. And later on, somebody said, oh, yeah, he doesn't want to be a PA. And the director knows he's got an ego problem, and just made him a PA, sort of like a punishment type deal. And, yeah, I mean, it was just, I said, Why does fire the guy? Why even have no, I'd rather have nobody, and just put, you know, tape on the floor and say, Hey, come in here. This way, this way is the craft, this way is the set, or this way is the group, yeah. So it's like, what, you know, that ego just made it just, I mean, I, you know, I've encountered that before, and it really, it really is so toxic because it starts to spread to other people too.

Evan Kidd 22:38
Yeah. I mean, when I got out of film school, I worked on Shark Tank for a little bit. And, you know, I was a camera PA, and I kind of worked my way up a little bit in that world. You know, it's not really a world. I love hanging out in a lot reality, but I've done a lot of it. And, you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but I do see, actually, believe it or not, a lot of ego in reality TV, and this is on the crew side, not in all shows. And actually, Shark Tank is not my example. They were actually very lovely, but I worked on some other shows after that, and, you know, I saw a lot of these, like reality directors. Man, they like thought they were God's gift to Earth. And I'm just like, man, you're directing like a fake fight between people on, like, a TLC show, like, what, like, you know, and, I mean, there's nothing wrong with that, but, I mean, you know, you're gonna get what you kind of deserve. Gossip wise, I guess, by your crew, if you're acting, you know, just like an idiot. And, like, you know, telling people, Oh, you don't know who I am. I did this pilot of this. I'm just like, Well, I mean, half this stuff I've not even heard of, and that's kind of my problem. It's like, I don't like pretentiousness on any level. But if you're gonna, like, you know, if in this, and I'm sure he's a wonderful guy, but you know, Scorsese was a little pretentious to me. I guess I could take it, because he Scorsese. But you know, it's like, if some of these other people do it, you know, I kind of, you know, have a little question mark over my head, and I kind of look at that a little weird. So, you know, for me, I just try to not be pretentious and not not, you know, act like an idiot, you know, treat people with respect. You know, I've been there. I've been the PA. I know, kind of how much, you know, it sucks, and how a lot of times people take advantage of you. So, you know, with this film, I tried to tell tell my pas. You know, I don't want you to just grab coffee like I want you to tell me what you want to do, and we'll put you near that department. Or if you have questions, you know, between takes, feel free like you can talk to me like I don't want to ever appear or seem unapproachable. So that's kind of my mindset?

Dave Bullis 24:42
Yeah, the, you know, I we understand. Chris says he's pretentious. You know, I had one time I was on a film set, and the one of the guys said was arguing with another guy, and he says, Do you know who I am? I won the south blah, blah, blah Film Festival. No one's ever heard. This fucking Film Festival, and the fact that he won, it was some movie called, he was called a dirt bag or sleaze bag or something, and, and he screamed at one time. And I was like, this movie won a film festival. I said, What was the two at two entries? And, but like, when he said that, everyone just kind of laughed, and it's just like, you know, you there's, there's two options, either you just ignore that guy, or people start to fuck with them. You know what I mean, like,

Evan Kidd 25:26
Well, well, my dad always had a saying when I was a kid, when I, you know, acted out or whatever, and he'd always be like, you know, if I could roll the tape back on that and show you, you'd really see how much of an idiot you were. And I, you know, I apply that to anyone else I meet, because I think a lot of times in the heat of the moment, people say stupid stuff. But you know, if we were to roll the tape back, so to speak on everyone, I think a lot of people would admit, wow, I'm coming across like a douche bag.

Dave Bullis 25:54
Yeah, I that's why it is so important about building that team, to just make sure, you know all those egos or toxic people, or people who are going to try to, you know, take over the project. You know, I had one time some people messaged me, and I wasn't even a part of the project, and they were working with a friend of mine, and they said, Dave, can you go talk to him? Because he's listening to this one guy who started off as nothing. He was just like a consultant, and now all of a sudden, he's a producer, and he's going and telling us how to he's trying to micromanage everybody. And they said, you know, this was, this started off as a fun little project, and now this guy's like, ruining every everything Can you can you talk to him, to my friend who was in charge, and I said, I don't think I can go down that path, because he like is joining me, because he likes that guy so much, it's like you got to pick and choose your battles and what the

Evan Kidd 26:38
Well, absolutely. And going back to what you said about the team, I mean, that's the most important aspect, you know, both on life and in filmmaking, is just surround yourself with good people.

Dave Bullis 26:50
Yes, very true. Get all those negative people, those hateful, passive aggressive people. And, you know, I just read an article on Twitter the other day about how that, how, like, this snarky attitude that some people have, like, oh yeah, that's real fucking cool. You know that attitude you have to get. You know that that's even toxic to yourself. You know what I mean. And so what happens is, if you have those people on set, we're like, oh, great, we're doing another indie film. Get those people out. I don't care what they've done in the past, how talented they are. Just ask them very politely to leave and just try to, you know, say, Hey, listen, we Thanks, but no thanks.

Evan Kidd 27:25
Well, you know, isn't that the worst kind of person you know, someone who complains about the environment in which they're very part of? You know, it's like, if you're so wonderful, are you here? You know, it's like, I always find that, you know, kind of gross. And, you know, anytime I see that, I just kind of have to roll my eyes a little bit. I mean, there's definitely a culture, you know, with with certain people who think, you know, they're better than this, or they don't have to do this, or, you know, but, you know, at the end of the day, it's like, if you feel that way, why did you show up in the first place?

Dave Bullis 27:58
Yeah, yeah, it's really odd. And I think it is an ego thing, you know, they just want to make themselves feel heard and seen. Like, you know what? I was gonna I could have been in my apartment today, but instead, I'm gonna be out here on this film set telling you how great.

Evan Kidd 28:11
Yeah. It's like, you know, I could be in my underpants watching Netflix, but I decided to grace you with my presence. So it's like, oh, thank you.

Dave Bullis 28:22
Yeah, you know, it's one of the reasons why I refuse to watch Cinema Sins and trailer, whatever that's called the truth of the trailer, or, Oh, Honest Trailers, that's it. And, you know those two things, because I it's just like the snarky, nitpicking type of deal and some and you know, you could tell that both the people who run them, I guarantee you want to be filmmakers, and they just are too frustrated or can't do it, so they just have to make this thing where they insult other people's work.

Evan Kidd 28:52
Yeah. I mean, I don't know personally for them, but, I mean, I know there are people that way, definitely. And you know, I think it's unfortunate, because, again, not to, you know, prod the fire or whatever, but you know, nowadays it's easier than ever to be a filmmaker. So it's like, if you're still ragging on people, it's like, damn, what's your excuse?

Dave Bullis 29:12
And you know, what's funny do Evan, I have friends who I've known who are like that, you know, I'll enter they, you know, I'll post what I'm doing on social media. Like, hey, I'm entering this contest. This guy sent me an email, and it was just this attitude, like, Oh man, I wish, you know, I don't have the time anymore, blah blah and this. And I'm like, Dude, you know, write a page a day or something I don't know, or write something. I mean, you know what? Why are you coming to me? You know what? I mean? Like,

Evan Kidd 29:39
Sitting you up for advice. Or he was just saying, like, I'm tired of seeing you talk about stuff.

Dave Bullis 29:44
It was, uh, more like a backhanded, backhanded compliment sandwich. It was like, Hey, good to see you doing stuff well, then then here comes the passive aggressiveness. And then he finishes up with, like, another compliment. So it's kind of like, you know, I don't know how to take this sandwich, but,

Evan Kidd 30:10
Yeah, no, I've gotten a couple of those over the years. And, I mean, I think it's just like when you're doing something good or Well, or, you know, maybe not even good or Well, just in general, just being active and not, you know, sitting on your couch. You know, some people take offense to that, or some people wish they were doing that. And, you know, I mean, again, everyone has their own situation. I'm not going to pretend I know why. You know, some people can't make a film every year or whatever. But you know, to those of us who are attempting to do that, I really don't think you know, the the way to do it is, you know, backhanded compliments. I mean, if you're interested in truly doing that for yourself, ask, how did you do it? Ask, how can I help you? Ask, can you help me? You know, I think there's a more productive way to have that conversation.

Dave Bullis 30:53
And you know, I want to have that conversation right now. And I want to ask how you did it. Because, you know, it was son of clowns, you know, you so let me just guess with what you did, and maybe you can correct me, you know, maybe I'm wrong, but I you sat down, and I think you made a an asset list of what you had access to, and you sort of built the script around that. And you sort of, and you already had your team in place, and you sort of, you know, you showed your team, hey, I made this, I wrote this script. Son of clowns. What do you think they need to give you some feedback. And, you know, maybe went through a few drafts, and then you were saying, You know what, I think it's ready to make this thing. And you, you know, you got those, you know, those that asset list, you you know, you know, you, you knew you had access to that stuff, and you were able to sort of put together, you know, a shooting schedule. And you were, you knew, you put everyone's schedules together, you know, of all the actors, and you you got yourself a cinematographer who's already a part of your team, or you did it yourself, and you were able to, you know, within one degree or another, pretty much shoot the script that you wrote, because you sort of wrote from the inside out. Am I right or wrong?

Evan Kidd 32:04
That's pretty, pretty accurate to how the dominoes fell. Yeah. I mean, pretty much that's what I did. You know, I started this project completely alone. Couple months after I got out of film school. I was like, Okay, I want to write something. You know, I was kind of schlepping it out on those reality shows, coming home at night, kind of wishing I could do something a little more artistic. So I started writing, and, you know, took about a year ish, and at that point I was finishing some promotion film festival circuit touring for my last short displacement welcome, which was my thesis film from film school at East Carolina. And during one of those kind of interview situations, I met this guy named Bradley Bethel, and he was a writer, but he also expressed an interest in wanting to make movies and produce, and he was in the middle of making a documentary, and he, you know, had a lot of success with that, and he was saying he was interested in kind of shifting into producing narrative film as well. So once I met him, it was kind of a combination of my network and his network. So I met my cinematographer through him. He met his assistant producer through me. So, you know, we kind of shifted and traded around people we both knew, until we had this amalgamation of a whole bunch of people. And then kind of going back to what you said about, you know, making a list of assets and things I had access to absolutely because, you know, when you're making a micro budget film, you know, you really don't have the luxury of just like pointing to a place on the street and saying, we're going to buy that place out for a day and stick our cameras in there. Because that's not how it works when you're doing this. You know, we found these locations weeks and months in advance, and, you know, said, Hey, what is a time when you know you're either doing little to no business or you're closed so that way we don't have to, you know, shut you down and, you know, take your guys's, you know, cash flow out for a couple hours, or whatever, you know, and make it as easy for you guys as possible. And you'd be surprised if you kind of phrase it that way, what a lot of people will be willing to do, you know, we kind of explained to them, we will promote this film heavily. Your you know, stuff will be seen. But, you know, I think more than that, like, that's kind of promises that, you know, people have heard before. I think if you're just transparent and honest, and you just say, Look, we don't want to cost you money, because, like, if you're a bar owner, right? So we filmed in several bars. If you're a bar owner, and I and Evan Kidd just randomly shoots you an email. You don't know me from Adam. You know, you open your email and you just see, hey, we have this, and you feel wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. Let's film here. Please, please, blah blah blah. You're gonna be like, Okay, so is this gonna cost me money? Am I gonna be out? And you just have to make it speak their language. Essentially, they don't care that you're making this personal film, blah, blah, blah. All they care about is, okay, I want to help you out, but, you know, let's not cost me a lot of money. So that's kind of the situation we framed within.

Dave Bullis 34:53
So the reason I was able to sort of gage that evidence because, you know, I've done this myself, and lately I've been sort of, that's been my. I, you know, for podcast listeners, they know that for every time I introduce a show. Now, I've been talking about this, you know, you know, making, you know, how do you make a film? You know, how do you make a film with what you have access to right now? And, you know, some people call it the Rodriguez list. You know, I actually had Robert Rigas as producer on here, and we, even, I were talking about that, because he's like, Yeah, Dave, you pretty much got it. That's exactly what he what he did. And so, you know, you know, if you have access, you know, let's just say, for instance, I had friends of mine that access to an old abandoned meat packing plant, and they had the key, and they were able to film there. And, you know, that's that became a location, you know. Okay, we're going to set the entire film in this abandoned meat packing plant. Well, what happens in there? Well, obviously it's a horror film, because you're not going to set a comedy in there. So, so it's now, you know, it's a slasher film, okay? And they're stuck in there, all right? And one thing leads to another, and they sort of, you know, go from there. And you know that that's sort of how they built the script, you know. And I think that's how. And I also also noticed this too, Evan, I think this is sort of becoming the calling card slash hallmark of our time where this is, this is a sort of definition of talent. Can a person or filmmaker make a film in one location and keep it interesting? You know what I mean? Can a person you know, make a movie with, you know, the Rodriguez list, to keep it interesting, I sort of think this is a, you know, sort of the benchmark now, where we're serious filmmakers and people who just sit around and say, Hey, listen, I have an idea for a film. You know, I don't know what to do, and I'm just gonna wait until somebody gives me $10 million

Evan Kidd 36:39
Exactly. You mentioned Rodriguez. I mean him and Linklater, and filmmakers like that. I mean, that's who I kind of idolize. And, you know, watched growing up in high school and going through film school. And, you know, those are kind of the the mindsets I like to kind of, you know, put myself in, if possible. Because, you know, I mean, working with a million producers and investors and Hollywood's money and, you know, or some, you know, rich guy's money or whatever. I mean, that would be fantastic, I'm not gonna lie. But you know, at the same time, I think resource based filmmaking will get you a story that you're not going to get if you make, you know, a film that way, if you kind of do it, quote, unquote, by the book. I think in resource based filmmaking, like you said, you know, there's people who will set films in their, you know, meat packing abandoned warehouse, or, you know, like a lot of the mumble, course, stuff from 10 years ago, New York apartment, pretty much the whole time. And you know, I think a lot of people poke fun at that, or, you know, kind of look at it in a different way. But I mean, I mean, I actually think there's a lot of strength to being a good enough filmmaker to set something in one location, like you said, and keep it interesting. I think that might make you more talented than if you, you know, have a film that puts you in outer space, going through a different planet every 10 minutes, or whatever. You know, nothing wrong with that, but I just think that's more interesting to me. And you know, a lot of times filmmaking is like solving a puzzle. So, you know, for me, I like that, I like that challenge. And I mean, for son of clowns, we probably made it harder, harder on ourselves than we needed to, just because we did have so many locations. And a lot of times, you know, characters would rove around throughout the triangle in North Carolina, that's the region the phone is set. And, you know, we probably didn't need to make it as in depth as we did, but we kind of wanted the film to have a slice of Raleigh, North Carolina. So we kind of wanted to incorporate a lot of different locations to give, you know, people who knew the area a little taste of it. And so, you know, if we were to do it a different way, like, you know, I'm writing a new feature right now, and it's a little bit more of a psychological film, a little bit more introspective, a little darker. And I think, you know, that film is probably going to be a little bit more similar to that where, you know, there will be not as many locations, so it's going to rely a lot on, you know, character development. Not that sun of clowns, doesn't there's a lot of character development. But, you know, I think just in terms of getting a new location to kind of, you know, refresh your, you know, the AED of the audience, so to speak. You know, you may not get that. So I think that is interesting, definitely. And kind of, being able to tell that and convey that in a compelling way is, you know, a mark of strength,

Dave Bullis 39:12
Yeah. And also, you know, this is something I've talked about before, which is, if you were to live, let's just say, you know, I live in Philadelphia, you're in North Carolina, correct?

Evan Kidd 39:22
Yeah, by way of Louisiana. At the moment, I'm working on a project, but yeah.

Dave Bullis 39:26
So, you know where we live, people sort of aren't burned out yet from being asked. You know, if you go to LA and say, Hey, listen, I can I shoot here, they're gonna say, look, look, buddy, we you're the third person today who's asked us about about that. And the answer is going to be,

Evan Kidd 39:40
Yeah, oh, sure. I mean, I was in Los Angeles last month for a film festival for son of clowns, and it was kind of, I'd been there before briefly during a layover, but, you know, I was there for three days this time, and kind of got my feet wet, so to speak, in LA and you know, I was talking to some folks at the festival, and they were just telling me all the same things, and they were like the locals. And they were just saying, you know, independent film is super tricky if you live in Los Angeles, like they were saying, it's almost harder over there, just because, you know, people know, and it's such a part of the culture. And, you know, Hollywood is king over there, so you have a little bit of resistance. I mean, you could obviously shoot something in your backyard or your apartment or whatever, but, like, if you're, like, you said, trying to get into bars and stuff, you know, you may as well forget it, unless you've got a lot of money.

Dave Bullis 40:37
Oh, yeah, absolutely. It's just, it's, you know, even a friend of mine who actually found a little independent spot, every time he shot there, they would raise the fee up. Yeah, you know, they kept raising the fee up a little bit more, a little bit more. And finally, he by the, like, the fifth or sixth time, he said, My God, it's called, you know, it's now, it's like a little, this little coffee shop. They charge us, like, I think, 200 bucks. Now, he's like, they're charging us over $1,000 and he said, you know, it just doesn't make any fiscal sense anymore.

Evan Kidd 41:05
Yeah, no. I mean, if we were to film son of clowns in that coffee shop for two days, we would have gone over our whole budget for the film. You know, I'd be like, That's the short of it. But, you know, I definitely think if you want to be an independent filmmaker, I would advise anyone to find a city that's big enough to have crew base and film schools around it, so, you know, maybe not the middle of Idaho, although you could maybe challenge yourself to do something out there. I don't know, but if you find one of these kind of regional, big cities, I think you can really set yourself up for success, because I had a lot of friends who, after ECU in film school, moved to Los Angeles, and like several of them, are doing pretty good for themselves, but like a couple others, are really struggling. And you know, it's a hard I mean, everyone knows it's hard out there, but you know, a lot of them have not made their own work since film school, and I think that's just kind of hard, because once you're in that system, you kind of need to, you know, be a cog, you know, not as a insult. I'm not saying this, but you kind of have to do that first before you're allowed permission. And I think anywhere else you, you know, that's there, but you kind of get a little more leeway to say, okay, wait back up. I want to make my own story. How do we do this?

Dave Bullis 42:20
Yeah, you know. And I've heard that same, you know, same step of experience, too, is, you know, some people do, you know, kind of well out there, a friend of mine ended up, you know, crewing on different stuff. Then he went to Louisiana. Now, where he, you know, he working on crew a project. You know, he's working on tons of projects and crew and other friends, you know, I one friend who went out there. He had contacts out the ass. And you know what happened, Evan, he felt very lonely and isolated out there. And he said, vase, basically, you know, everyone's always busy, everyone's always working. And he just felt, you know, basically his only people he could have talked to was the people at, like, a Chinese restaurant or whatever. And you know, because he would order from them every day. He'd go down there, and they would know who he was, and he'd say, Oh yeah, it's me, you know. And you know, he just, he hated it, and he ended up moving back. And funny little story, Evan, he still hasn't made a movie himself. And, you know, we always he and I talked before about when I said, what, you know he because he asked me, he's like, Dave, seriously, we went out to dinner, and he said, Dave, what is holding me back? And I said your fear of failure is holding you back, because if you, if you think that you make this movie and it sucks, it's going to mean you have no talent, and it's going to be indicative of everything that you've spent your whole life doing, yeah? And that's what's stopping you,

Evan Kidd 43:34
Yeah. I mean, fear is, you know, there's a book I've read, I think Robert Rodriguez mentioned in an interview a whole bunch of years back, and it's called The Art of fear, and it's a book that basically categorizes every doubt, every little inkling of you know why we shouldn't do an artistic endeavor into a category, and kind of lets you filter through it so you can catch those thoughts before they come out. It's a great read. It costs like eight bucks on Amazon, I would totally recommend it. But, you know, I would say it's not just that book, because, I mean, I made these, this film before I read that book. But, I mean, I think it's just a mindset. And, you know, I hate just the little Nike just do it. But I mean, it's so true, like, there's no one way that you're going to be successful. There's no one way that you're going to make this, you know, feature short or whatever. But you know, if you try, you can at least think try. Because, I mean, isn't that the worst thing to go to bed at the end of the day and kind of mull over in your head? Man, I still haven't taken the jump. I mean, because at the very least, if you take the jump and it's a horrible failure. I mean, who's really gonna care? Like, I mean, maybe a few of your friends will be like, yeah, he tried to make a movie. But, like, I guarantee you a few of your friends have much bigger problems than, you know, trivializing over your movie. So, you know, I mean, at the end of the day, it's really you that has to deal with it. So, you know, if you can kind of make peace in your own mind as. Think that's the key.

Dave Bullis 45:01
Yeah. There's also a great book called The War of Art by Steven Pressfield. Oh, I forgot that one. Yeah, yeah, it is. You know what? I read that book, and I very rarely ever just put down a book, you know that that's not fiction. And say, Holy crap, I got to read that again right now. Literally, I sat down to read it at a Barnes and Nobles. I read the whole thing, and I still, I was like, you know, I'm gonna go buy this. I have to buy. I mean, this is, like, my new go to thing, and everything he talks about. I was like, That's me. This is, you know, you know, you sit down to write and all any and in one ear you're hearing, you know, you sort of like, you know, your your your muse, and in the other year is resistance, you know, whisper, you know, whispering in your ear all you have no talent. Don't do this. It's stupid. You're awful. Just forget about this and go be, you know, go sell, you know, snow cones down the beach. And you're like, Well, you know what? I guess I should and you and you know what I mean, and I've been there, you know where you're like, you know what? I should just go out, forget all this stuff and just go get a job, you know, doing whatever instead.

Evan Kidd 46:07
Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, we have all dealt with that kind of depression and that kind of wrestling within your mind, you know, as you're an artistic person. I mean, I can only speak to my own experiences. But, I mean, I know that, to me, is a lot worse than the fear of failure. I mean, the depression and the kind of, you know, funk you get yourself into when you're not working. I mean, that freaks me out a lot more than just making a film and it's like, oh no, some people didn't like it, that that's a lot more frightening. So, I mean, for me, it's never been really about failure. It's it's been, I just don't like those kind of periods where I'm not doing something because I feel like, okay, what's wrong? There has to be a reason. You know, maybe it's outside of filmmaking, blah, blah, blah, but, you know, I think keeping yourself busy and keeping yourself sane is the best way to do it. Because, I mean, you can get caught up in your head too easily. I mean, especially these days. I mean, you know, a lot of times, like, we spend so much time just staring at devices and, you know, like, kind of not actually engaging with the world around us. So you kind of end up in your head a lot more than you may otherwise. And, you know, I think it's the best way to filter through that is to make work, you know,

Dave Bullis 47:14
Yes, yeah. And I think that's where a lot of frustration for some people comes in, is that they can't either they don't want to write, because they think that if it's bad, it's gonna be indicative of them. You know, indicative of them, even if they write a script, you know, and it's and it's terrible, you know, I've had to learn a very hard lesson, and I've had to learn this over and over again, and that is to stop trying to get perfectionism on the first draft. I don't I it's like, this weird thing with me, Evan, like I will outline, like you, I mean, I will outline pages and pages and pages, and then I'm like, oh, you know what, maybe let me, let me do something different. And I'm just like, it's almost like you're going in that hamster wheel, because you're always taking that first draft. And then you do and then you you say, hey, no, I'm going to start draft one, one dash b, and then that's one draft C. And then, you know what I mean, and then you're still in that first drift, instead of just getting something done and then trying to go back and trying to trying to figure out what worked, what didn't work, you know, and I think that's a lot of what's hold holds people back.

Evan Kidd 48:09
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I would say I just wrote a pilot script, and it's a series that I'm going to attempt to work on here in Louisiana, and the guy I'm working on it with, you know, we basically just said, like, let's get the vomit draft out, because we basically want to shoot this pilot on our own and have a, you know, solid, you know, cut pilot, everything like that. Nice and done, to present to some investors to hopefully get funding for the rest of the season. And, you know, for me, I was so worried about that, because I'm like, man, there's a lot of people, there's eyes, there's people we're going to try to impress. It's got to impress. It's gotta be perfect. It's gotta be perfect. And I'm just like, I'm only in stage one of the draft. I haven't even finished into edits yet, and we haven't even shot the film. We haven't even cut the film. So there's a lot more filters we're gonna go through before this thing seen by anyone. So like, I think that's the thing everyone's thinking way too far ahead. And like, I think everyone just needs to kind of chill out a little bit. And I know that sounds counter productive, and I need to take my own advice sometimes. But you know, I think if you really get a little bit more relaxed with it, at least on your first draft, I'm not saying, like, don't work hard and don't outline it, don't do this, because that's all very critical. I mean, pre production is the key to being successful. But I think a lot of times not trying to be so hard on yourself with that first draft, because if you're so hard on yourself making that first draft that you never actually write it, it doesn't even matter, you know,

Dave Bullis 49:35
Yeah, absolutely. I agree with you completely, man. And it is getting that vomit draft out there. It is getting something on the page, because that's, that's the thing you get stuck in your own head, and you never sort of stop thinking in terms of, what if, or it's what somebody once told me, is called this decision fatigue. You know what I mean, where you sort of, you make so many decisions, and you know that that's taking all your energy? You know what I mean? You're like, well, what if this happens?

Dave Bullis 50:07
No, no. What if this happens and this happens, then you're sort of just caught in your own head. Of all these different options.

Evan Kidd 50:15
Decisiveness is really underrated these days, man, and it's hard to be decisive, I think, because there are so many options. I mean, like with film, and not, you know, and just in life. I mean, there are so many options with pretty much everything we do nowadays. Don't want to shoot it on the 60 don't want to shoot it on See, 100 mark two don't want to shoot it on the Alex. I mean, like, so many options, but the end of the day, it's just a damn camera. If that's what you're worried about, or, you know, am I gonna cast this person or that person if it's a micro budget? Well, at the end of the day, your actors are pretty much just a vessel that you're telling your story through. You're not dealing with like Brad Pitt or anyone you know, outrageously famous. So just make your stuff. I mean, like at the end of the day, like all these little decisions, they are important, but I think we as filmmakers really tend to kind of trivialize them and kind of really make them way more blown up than they have any business being so, I mean, I think a lot of times just committing to something, and again, I mean, I'm guilty of it too. It's hard to be decisive sometimes. But I think just saying, Okay, I'm writing 10 pages today, or I'm writing from two o'clock to three o'clock, not looking at my phone. I'm not going to check Twitter, blah, blah, blah. I'm just going to, you know, turn off the internet and just write, I mean, like, that's really underrated, and that's and it's difficult, but, you know, I think doing that and getting in a habit of kind of reprogramming your brain is really helpful to getting work done.

Dave Bullis 51:38
Yes, yeah, getting that, you know, just turning off all those distractions. And I think that is a thing too, man. You know is that the cell phone is like this sort of the double edged sword. You could do so much with it, but there's also so many things vying for your attention. And what I what I find is what I'm gonna write, I take the cell phone away, and I just see in front of my computer, I can turn off the internet through a number of different add ons. And you know what I mean, and you just, and I just work inside something like Open Office, which is free because it's open sourced, or even just notepad or fade in, or final drift, and just, that's it, make a full screen mode and just write for, you know, 20 minutes. And get into that habit. Because somebody once told me, Oh, I'm gonna butcher this. But I think it's, you know, actions become habits, and then habits become what you're known for. Oh, yeah, and I, maybe I did butcher that, I'm not sure, but, but that, but that's so true, you know. And you're, you're gonna, they're gonna say, hey, there's Evan. That's the guy who can write for, you know, two or three hours without looking at his phone. He's a freaking superstar. You know, most people can't go five sex without looking I don't know if

Evan Kidd 52:42
I'm there yet, but I'm working. Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, it's hard. It's definitely hard to turn off those distractions.

Dave Bullis 52:49
Yeah, it really is. And, you know, you know, Evan, you know, we've been talking for about, you know, 48 minutes. And I just want to ask, you know, before you know, would you we start wrapping up? I just want to ask about son of clowns, you know, what was one of the biggest production issues that you had? I mean, whether it be a location or maybe you were going to film outside, and now thunderstorm rolls in, you know, what was one of the biggest production issues you ran in while making son of clowns?

Evan Kidd 53:14
I mean, kind of throwing through just time. I mean, we shot this whole feature in 10 days, which was really a brutal schedule. You know, we a lot of times we would just hold ourselves up in a location for three days, you know, do air mattresses, that whole thing, and just get it done. We didn't shoot 10 days straight, but we shot 10 days over the course of about two weeks, two and a half weeks. So, I mean, it was, you know, three or four days straight, then a day or two off, and then right back at it, kind of so on and so forth. But, I mean, aside from time, I mean, I think it was just trying to get conditions perfect, because a lot of this was me, it's a narrative film, but we shot in the real world. There was no sound stages. There was no, you know, roping off an entire area to make it quiet. I mean, a lot of times we'd have, like, giant trucks trying to come through them, or we're filming in a parking lot for a scene. And, like, this 18 wheeler was trying to make a delivery, and then we had to, like, stop and wait for him. And then by the time he finished, uh, unloading his truck, like the sun was way different. The lighting looked, you know, completely off. And, you know, it's just trying to fix those things. And it's really easy in the moment, be like, yeah, we'll fix it in post. But it's just like, don't shoot yourself in the foot. But, I mean, I actually that you mentioned the thunderstorm. A quick little story from set. There's a scene towards the end of the movie. I won't spoil it, but Jabari, who's Hudson's brother, Hudson's our main character in the film. Basically, they're, they're mending kind of a soured relationship between the two of them, something's gone wrong in a very big way. And basically they're doing this scene where, you know, they're trying to make amends, or Hudson's trying to make amends, and, you know, Jabari is having none of it. And it's really this dramatic, tense moment, like, I mean, they were both doing so good, you could cut the tension with, you know, pair of scissors, but at an. Nowhere, you just hear this giant Thunder Cloud. And they stayed in character and just kept going. And that slowly started raining a little bit, and then the light was all weird and wonky, but, you know, we kept rolling, and that's the take we used. And so a lot of times when people watch the film, there's this, like, thunder in the background while they're having this argument. And a lot of people are like, Did you add that? I'm like, no, no, that's just from like, the real world. So, I mean, it's, like, it fit really well, I thought, and like, it didn't come off as, like, corny or weird, because, I mean, it didn't sound like an effect. I mean, it was just off in the distance and you could see it. So it was really cool. And, you know, it's just one of the situations where, you know, we wouldn't have got that from a sound stage. We wouldn't have got that from, you know, a whole bunch of, like, polished, you know, clean sets, or anything. You know, it's just shooting in the real world. That's what happens. So, I mean, I think you do get happy accidents like that, but then at the same time, you get the guy unloading the 18 wheeler. So that's a double edged sword. So I think it's just a matter of, like, time and getting those locations, you know, to work for you, instead of you working for your location. So,

Dave Bullis 56:03
Yeah, you know, it's amazing when you're out there actually filming, what all the things that can happen. And, you know, sort of the some things can come together very well. And then some things like the use of the truck, the guy learning the truck and can sort of put a damper on things. And, you know, you know, just some of the things that I found in hearing stories about filmmaking and, you know, my own personal experiences. You know, sometimes you just, you just never know. I mean, for instance, I was going to film in for three days out in this in this park, and I looked at the weather forecast, they said it was going to be beautiful all three days. Evan, it stormed like crazy, and we were going to use zombies, and we couldn't put them out there, because the zombie makeup was going to run. So we ended up having to sort of do everything inside, and they look completely different than what we wanted. It was just, you know, we improvised as best we could, but it's always like, damn it, if only we could have done more outside. It's, you know,

Evan Kidd 56:57
Yeah, I mean, filmmaking is just a big game of improvisation and trying to stay two steps ahead of the real world. And, I mean, like as filmmakers, we have a unhealthy habit of thinking the world's gonna stop for us while we're on set, but, you know, the world doesn't care that guy, you know, unloading his truck, he's just, you know, doing his job, like he doesn't care that we're making a film. I mean, you know, so it's like, that's what you deal with. You know, it's gonna rain or it's gonna do this or that, and it's just a matter of being flexible. I mean, I think, like being kind of Zen about everything, and really trying to, you know, I guess, be a little bit hippie with it, and just try not to let every little thing bother you, and just kind of be at peace. I mean, that's the key. Because, I mean, if you're you have to be type A, I think, to make productions work. But I think if you can kind of take a little bit of a type B mindset when something goes wrong, you're going to save yourself a couple gray hairs.

Dave Bullis 57:49
Yeah, absolutely. I think also meditation helps with that. Just learning to, learning to roll with this, you'd be like, okay, you know what? We'll figure this out. I'm gonna become very David Lynch about this. I'm gonna, you know,

Evan Kidd 57:59
Yeah, I mean, that's, that's how I try to be. I mean, like, Werner Herzog, he talks a lot about, you know, just shooting gorilla, and, like, just the stuff that could go wrong, and how you kind of incorporate that into your film, and how that's actually part of your esthetic. And, like, I mean, I absolutely buy that. Because, I mean, a lot of our film was just gorilla. I mean, it was just out there. And, you know, it was, it was wild. And so, you know, you deal with the situations that come by just sticking a camera in the real world, and I think it gives your film a little bit of authenticity. I think that's actually really exciting. But I think at the same time it's also challenging, but once you capture it, it's almost like, Hey, I got away with something. Hey, we did it. We, you know, managed to film here, even though that guy unloaded his truck or whatever. And so you kind of walk away with a little bit of a, you know, excited edge you may not have got if you just kind of rolled camera in a perfect little situation. And everything, you know, just checked off the list.

Dave Bullis 58:57
Yeah, very, very true, very true. Evan, you know, Evan, just in closing, I wanted to ask where people check out Son of clowns?

Evan Kidd 59:03
Yeah. So we are playing two more festivals at the moment. Like I said, we were just at action on film in Los Angeles, and we were at yollywood Film Festival in Atlanta this past weekend, and we've got Queen City Film Festival in Maryland on the sixth so it may not be this may not be out by then, but then we have cuckoloris Film Festival back home in North Carolina, and I am super excited for that film festival. That's one I've loved personally for a while, and so it's going to be a great homecoming for the film. And actually, the day after cuckoloris ends this film, November 15, is going to be streaming for Amazon Prime and Amazon Video on demand. So November 15 is the day I think most people should remember, because you'll be able to check out son of clowns in full and streaming on Amazon.

Dave Bullis 59:49
And I will also link to all that in the show notes, everybody, and just in case, in case they didn't get that. Evan, where people find you out online?

Evan Kidd 59:58
Yeah, I do Twitter. Probably the. Most so if you do Twitter, twitter.com, My thing is at Mr. Evan Kidd, my works, also online, rocksetproductions.com that's where I keep everything. And then obviously, if you want to know more about son of clowns, in particular, son of clowns com got everything you need to know.

Dave Bullis 1:00:27
And again, everyone all looked at in the show notes. And you as you know, Evan knows, I'm also most active on Twitter, and that's sort of where I, you know, I meet a lot of people. Twitter has been an excellent, excellent networking tool for me. Yeah, I've been able to meet so many awesome people through there.

Evan Kidd 1:00:43
Definitely, yeah, I love Twitter. Twitter has put me in touch, actually, with a lot of people who I've ended up meeting in the real world. Like I stayed with my friend Blaze, who has a podcast, called us first film, and we just met through Twitter. And he was gracious enough to put me up while I was in Los Angeles. And you really kind of show me around and do stuff like that. So you know, Twitter is definitely a wonderful network to meet people and kind of foster those filmmaking connections.

Dave Bullis 1:01:07
Yeah, it's unbelievable. It's like, you know, I always say, you know, social media is a tool, and it depends how you want to wield that tool, and Twitter is one that I have. I have met so many people in there. Evan, you know, I, I would say you and I met on there, but you actually, you and I met through email,

Evan Kidd 1:01:22
I saw you on Twitter. That's probably, I think, well,

Dave Bullis 1:01:26
There you go. All right, that's good. Twitter is the, you know, it's an actual source of all that. Evan, I want to say thank you so much for coming on. This has been a blast of a conversation, dude. And, you know, I wish you the best with son of clowns. And you know, if you ever want to come back, talk about, you know, whatever else you're up to, about the TV pilot you talked about, or whatever else, please. You know, door is always open.

Evan Kidd 1:01:45
Yeah, thanks, Dave. I appreciate it.

Dave Bullis 1:01:47
Oh, my pleasure. Evan Kidd, I want to say thanks again, and I wish the best of luck.

Evan Kidd 1:01:51
Man, thanks, man, appreciate it.

Dave Bullis 1:01:53
Anytime take care, buddy.