Podcast

IFH 072: How Marketable is Your Film Idea or Screenplay?

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So how marketable is your film idea or screenplay? I know so many screenwriters and filmmakers who spend months and sometimes years on an idea that is cool to just themselves.

Depending on what you are attempting to achieve with your story, you should always figure out if your idea is marketable or if you have a fighting chance of selling the screenplay or final film.

Paul Castro, the writer of the Warner Brothers feature film August Rush (Starring Robin Williams) shares with us his thoughts on how to test and find marketable ideas. You can download the MP3 or watch the video below.

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
So today I wanted to talk about the marketability of your idea or your screenplay specifically or your screenplay. You know a lot of people always go off and you know spend six months a year even longer either writing a screenplay making a movie and they don't even understand if this is even marketable if it's something that the marketplace wants or is positioned in a place that you can sell it you know, I've seen so many filmmakers go off and make a movie and spend six months a year two years of their lives putting stuff together and they have no idea if the the idea of the movies even marketable and it's a waste man and I hate again all depends on what you're trying to do if you're trying to just put out art or trying to do experiments and keep the budgets low and you could do whatever you want and that's fine Go for it. But if you're spending you know as a substantial amount of money and it takes you a year or two of your life and you haven't even tested to see if this is even a marketable idea my god it's just such a waste so please always test your ideas go off and do a little do a little research and see if the marketplace is interested in your kind of movie. And if the if it is interested in your idea, do you need stars attached things like that, to make it a marketable thing now, where you start with this whole idea is with the screenplay with the idea is this a marketable idea or marketable screenplay? So if you're only a screenwriter, listen up, because this is going to be very, very valuable information. And also, filmmakers who are screenwriters slash directors slash producers definitely perk your ears up, because you're going to get some knowledge bombs thrown at you right now. So Paul Castro, the writer of August, Russian, I have put together a course called the million dollar business of screenwriting. Now I'm going to give you a one of the lessons that he teaches in this course called is your screenplay marketable? What is the marketability of your screenplay. So I wanted to give you a kind of a sneak peek of the course in this podcast and listen to one of these amazing lectures that Paul does in this in this course. Now, this is not just for screenwriters, this is also for directors, producers, filmmakers, who have ideas that they might want to get fleshed out, or a movie that they're about to start, definitely listen to what Paul says, because it might save you years of your life, let alone 1000s and 1000s, or even, maybe even millions of dollars, depending on the level you're at. And at the end of the episode, I'll give you a special link to get the course at a substantial discount. So sit back and get ready to get your minds blown.

Paul Castro 4:00
I wanted to talk to you about the marketability of your idea. So writers we all have a peppering of all sorts of ideas, bombarding our psyche and our soul often, and most of the time every day, at least for me, and many of my friends. So how do you choose an idea? Well, I think it's important to take your top three ideas, and be really honest with yourself, is it marketable? Because there are ideas out there that are real, something that's interesting to me may not be interesting to the world. So I wrote a script about a Fugu chef one time the Japanese puffer blowfish, which is the poisonous fish and I love this story, and it got some traction but nobody ever bought it. And the writing experience was a value for sure. But I could have spent those eight weeks to 12 weeks to eventually six months, working on something that was much more marketable. So what makes a marketable screenplay that's going to put you in the best possible position to sell it. So These days, it is a true story. For some reason Hollywood and actors, movie stars like to play something that actually happened. So how do you acquire that? Well, you acquire it from source material, what is source material from a magazine, a book, an article, something you've seen in the news. Now, you may be saying, hey, Paul, that's great. But I'm a new screenwriter, how am I going to acquire that? Well, from my experience, I have seen that book authors are a lot more accessible and open than say, trying to get to a movie star. So if you approached a book author knows I said, he or she not the agent, because agents are wonderful, but they're the gatekeepers. They're trying to protect that person. And they're trying to get them paid, understandably so. But if you approach a book author, and show your passion for the material, have a plan for how you're going to adapt it from book to the big screen. And oh, by the way, you're going to do this for free, as long as that he or she gives you a free option. And if the material once you're done with it is had a level of vibrancy and at a high frequency of quality, that that person says yes, this is what this is my book on screen, in a screenplay form that can eventually make to the big screen. Yeah, I would love to see you did a great job. If they agree to that, then you go forward as a team to sell the entire project. And it costs you time and sweat equity, that can be done. And most writers are a bit trepidatious and shy and circumspect in going that route. Because they feel like well, what value do I have to add? Well, I'm here to tell you, you have a lot, you're a creative, right? That's invaluable. And if you're going to be brave enough to approach this person, and coming from a good place, you're not trying to rip anyone off, you're trying to add value with your talent and creativity, you can acquire some wonderful stories, right? So the market is very friendly towards a true story. Something that's current, is it a strike these days, you hear a lot of stories about autism, which is a very important subject. All right, if there's something that is relevant to the science world, as far as a curable disease, something that has an energy beyond just a true story. All right, an Olympic hopeful, who blah, blah, blah, fill in the blank. Maybe there's something in your hometown, some somebody that nobody even knew about this person. And you could bring that story to fruition through a screenplay where there's a will there's a relative, and there's also a way. So I would encourage you to start looking for true stories, something from source material, if there's a book that you saw when you were you read when you were a little kid, and you Why isn't this ever been a movie, then that's a voice a little God wink that's telling you to pursue it. So your job now is to spend the next I'm sorry, not one hour, two hours, going to Google going to your role, the text going to your hometown, going through all your resources to identify a true story that you can bring to fruition through the craft of screenwriting. So you have two hours, make sure you hit the restroom, get some water, get some amens whatever you do, and get prepared because two hours and you're going to on Vale the gym that you were meant to write through a true story from source material. Okay, in 321 right.

Alex Ferrari 8:57
I'll tell you what, I learned a ton from Paul walls working with him on this course. I mean, he goes over things like how to workshop your screenplay, which I had never heard of this whole technique of how he actually workshops a screenplay so he can get feedback and make it better it's it's pretty, pretty awesome. How to submit to an agent how to get your screenplay to an agent, pitching how to read a room, not read a person but actually read a room, which is amazing how to write different kinds of screenplays from 30 minutes, sitcoms to one hour dramas, residuals, a W GA, writing assignments and so on. I mean, it's it's a pretty dense course on the business of screenwriting and how to actually make a living being a screenwriter. But again, a lot of the concepts and things that Paul talks about for screenwriters can easily be translated to filmmakers. So definitely a course to take a listen to and as promise I am going to give you a discount code so all you have to do is go to indie Film hustle.com forward slash screenwriting 25 that's indie film, hustle comm forward slash screenwriting 25. And you'll get the course for 25 bucks. I mean, that is a absolute steal, not not even playing around guys, it's so dense. And there's some more preview. When you go to that link, you'll see a few more lessons, you can kind of preview and take a listen to. Well, well worth it, guys. So I hope you got a lot out of this episode. And like I said before, on other episodes, I'm really trying to bring the highest quality film courses and knowledge to you guys through our podcast, through our blog, and through these online courses that we're creating for you. And by buying these online courses. You're supporting the show, you're supporting indie film, hustle, and what we're trying to do, and spread all of this valuable knowledge to you guys and to indie filmmakers who really need it because like I said, the reason I started this whole thing is I was just tired of seeing so many filmmakers just not making it and getting eaten up and chewed up by the film industry. And I wanted to give out as much free information as I could, but also create really top and next level courses that will take that knowledge to another place. So by by buying this, buying these courses from us, you really help us support what I'm trying to do at indie film hustle. So I thank you from the bottom of my heart guys. And also there is a 30 day money back guarantee if you don't like it, so if you just want to listen to it, give it a shot, but it's definitely worth it. Alright guys. So as always, please head over to filmmaking podcast calm and leave us an honest review of the show. It really helps us out a lot. And don't forget to go and sign up for our free Facebook group so you can talk to all the other tribe members and be part of the indie film hustle community, share your information, share your knowledge, share your what you're shooting, what you're making, all that kind of stuff and ask questions. That's why I created it. So it is a vibrant, wonderful community that we're building slowly but surely we're getting close to 5000 members already at the Facebook group so please head over to indie film, hustle, calm Ford slash Facebook and sign up it is free. So as always guys, keep the hustle going. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

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YOUTUBE VIDEO

IFH 071: Save the Cat – Screenwriting Story Structure Made Easy

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Why would you want to ‘Save the Cat’? If you are a screenwriter or aspiring one you should have heard by now of Blake Snyder’s game-changing screenwriting book.

In his 20-year career as a film producer and screenwriter, Blake Snyder sold dozens of scripts, including co-writing Blank Check, which became a hit for Disney, and Nuclear Family for Steven Spielberg — both million-dollar sales. Named “one of Hollywood’s most successful spec screenwriters,” Blake sold his last screenplay in 2009.

His book, Save the Cat!® The Last Book on Screenwriting You’ll Ever Need, was published in May 2005 and is now in its 24th printing. When I read this book it really had an impact on my storytelling and screenwriting.

Thankful Blake was not done and apparently it was not quite the last book on screenwriting you’ll ever need, as the eagerly awaited sequel, Save the Cat!® Goes to the Movies: The Screenwriter’s Guide to Every Story Ever Told, was published in October 2007 — shooting to #1 in the Screenwriting and Screenplay categories on Amazon.com. Blake’s third book, Save the Cat!® Strikes Back: More Trouble for Screenwriters to Get Into… And Out Of was published in November 2009.

Blake’s method has become the “secret weapon” of many development executives, managers, and producers for its precise, easy, and honest appraisal of what it takes to write and develop stories that resonate. Save the Cat!® The Last Story Structure Software You’ll Ever Need has codified this method. Blake passed unexpectedly in 2009 but the Save the Cat community carries on Blake’s work.

I had the pleasure of interviewing one of Blake’s main pupils Jose Silerio. Jose is carrying the torch of Blake’s work and travels around the world well…saving the cat.

Enjoy my informative interview with Jose Silerio.

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Alex Ferrari 0:15
Jose man, thank you so much for joining us on the indie film hustle podcast. I really appreciate you taking the time, man.

Jose Silerio 3:17
Hey, thank you very much for having us. Alex, it's I mean, we're happy from Sema from save the cat to be part of this and you know, just to help out screenwriters as much as possible.

Yeah. I'm a huge, huge fan of Blake Snyder's work and save the cat. I read all three books. And they're, they're amazing. And they've kind of changed the business a lot ever since they were released. So can you tell me a little bit about Blake and save the cat? For people who don't know?

Alex Ferrari 3:44
Yeah, definitely. You know, as you said in the save the cat three sort of became big in the industry. And that's not you know, it's not just simply us tooting our own horn. But it's really from our own experience. Even when Blake was still around. We saw how his his method, his books really became popular. And Blake, really, you know, he's a screenwriter yet, just like most of us, right? He started screenwriting way back in the 80s. He was even he started working for his dad in his in his dad's animation series, doing the voices for the kid in the in the show and all that and he got into screenwriting way back in the 80s. And he's he's sold, you know, several scripts throughout his career. I'm telling you, I think 12 or 13, all together in in in a couple of their made which is blank check and stop or your mom or mom does shoot which are kind of the more famous ones he did. That came up. But I think from Blake really what he did with save the cat and how it kind of how we didn't vote for him was that, you know, just like everybody else in the industry, especially for writers, there are those ups and down moments. And as a writer, you're always you know, struggling to sort of break Even though and I said that even though you're in already you kind of have to keep proving yourself over and over it's

Jose Silerio 5:07
What have you done it's like Janet Jackson says What have you done for me lately?

And I think that kind of came from him knowing that that struggle who went through you wanted to make sure that other writers following him sort of had it a little bit easier if I can put it that way. And He found you know, he had his own method of developing structure and which you see it's funny because he had this little story and I can't actually remember if it's it was in the book where in his introduction to structure was that he you know, this was like, early late 90s or late 80s system where he was he went into one of these development meetings, he submitted a script you know, the producer was there and they decided talking about the script and the producer goes to him so what's your you know, break after break? And he was just Oh, um, you know, he says kind of just sort of nodding his head and kind of just talking what the story more than after the meeting ended in a way when all other producers moved out and all that the one producer who's really only with him pulled him aside and said you don't know what the actual break is right? Yeah, I have no idea what to do. Right sort of became his introduction into creating structure and him realizing that you know, in order to tell a good story, regardless of the story, we need structure and again so he's developed his own system which eventually began to save the cat method and again because it's from his own experience of wanting to help other writers later down the road you know he just simply wanted to share it because it started working for him and in and like you said, you know once he published the road save the cat The first book was published and people really gravitated toward it and it just exploded

Now we're good you know what were save the cat came from the name

But the name save the cat itself is a term that he uses you know and it's it's it's a simple way for your audience to like your your main hero You know perfectly it's the same the cats literally comes from the term you know, saving a cat you know what it is it's it's you just put you give your your your hero and action to do early on in the industry in the movie in the script, you know, that makes us say Oh, that's a nice guy. You know, I like this person, you know, which will make me want to follow this person's journey for the rest of the movie

Alex Ferrari 7:25
Which would be the opposite of that would be kick the dog which would be my book, kick the dog how to be evil person.

It's a great way to introduce a villain

Right! You kill anybody who kicks a dog like that guy's bad so it's a perfect example Yeah, so that's where it comes from. Okay, great. So how did you get involved with save the cat?

You know it's funny I got involved with save the cat exactly the same way like everybody discovers save the cat which is I read the book. I didn't know Blake you know before the book came out but when I read the book, you know and I tell this to all you know people or writers I work with I'm a very lazy reader I'm sorry to say the book you know even was thick a save the cat man it's not really that thick. That's not it's not it's not a hard read. Yeah, it will usually a book that thick won't even take me something like a year to read.

Jose Silerio 8:15
You're really lazy, you're really lazy writer reader.

Save the cat, a Kenyatta Indeed, I sat down open page one couldn't put it down it just like he said it was a very easily but more than being an easily. I think it just it says, you know, you get it, right. The way you get the bag is talking about it, what the thing, the nice thing about it really, so sort of, for me, this is my reaction. It was very encouraging. It is really telling me that, you know, this is something that I can do and a lot of the things that I found myself like, Oh, no, as a screenwriter, like, I'm getting stuck here, you know, he was kind of explaining it and telling me you know, this is all you have to do. And that's how I got into save the cat, you know, read the book, you know, he had this email address there, which everybody knows have read the book. I wrote him, can you just ask him about other stuff and all that and then one day, he can tell immediately, not one day, but immediately he's going to ask me saying, hey, I need to help you with a script that we need to read. And if you can give me notes, you know, maybe we can build something together. And luckily,

you were at the right place at the right time. Exactly.

You know, the stars aligned for me kinda you know, so that's how I got into say the gap and it was like, way back in 2006 2007.

Alex Ferrari 9:24
Can't believe that's way back. Yeah.

Jose Silerio 9:28
10 years now.

Wow. So So can you explain to everybody what a beat sheet is? Because I remember the first time I was in an executive meeting, and someone goes so where's your beat sheet and I'm like, so you see the character does this. This is very similar to what Blake did. I'm like I just tried to keep going with it. But then afterwards, I found out what a beat sheet was. So can you explain to everybody what a beat sheet

is? Well, a BGA especially you know, we'd save the cat and a lot of, you know, a lot of other I guess, teachers producers, so every everybody has their own kind of definition for the beat sheets. Okay, so I'm gonna go with the save the cat definition, it's really as Blackboard you know, the beat sheet really has an end for us we have what we call the 15 beats, the 15 key beats and this what it does is the 15 beats of the beat sheet the same that the Blake Snyder beat sheet it just really pinpoints the 15 key beats that your hero must go through in order to tell a good story. These are moments that must be happening to your hero, right and your hero must be doing as well in order for us to be able to follow that structure that story in a way that's very familiar for for for for the audience. And again when I say familiar I'm not saying you know, you're just merely copying from other movies, other scripts or other books that you've read before. But you know, story structure is something that's been ingrained in all of us ever since you know from Nursery Rhymes like jokes there's always a structure and and that beats you know, those 15 beats is something that Blake sort of not only develop, but he even says this isn't all discovered but even not discovered but he just kind of made it clear for everybody gotcha gotcha. And he said and he having studied all these films that he felt like you know what really successful film really like he said you know, I this he discovered there were just 15 beats that were always present. And that's what you know, I guess a beat sheet is you know, you have this this 15 beats that go from in save the cat, terminologies go from opening image, all the way down to 15. The final image that, like I said earlier that we that your hero must go through So in short, I guess it's really like an outline, or, but really, it's a good way to really help you as a writer, figure out what's happening, and more importantly, when it should be happening to your hero,

right? It's kind of well, what I've taken from structure is because when I write I my structures pretty sound because I like structure I like having that those tent poles to be able to like write to so it's like okay, from here to this point to this point. This has to happen so how I get to point A to point B is up to me as the writer but I have a place to go without that structure you're just kind of like meandering all over the place.

Alex Ferrari 12:24
Exactly. I think it's what you said you know, the nice permit to use was temple which is exactly what Blake also mentioned that I think a lot of times and I say this all the time like when I went to film school way back when you know the writing screenwriting classes one to one The thing that really always got was okay there's act one act two and yeah right and they're like oh, that's very vague. You fill it in and that's what you know the the save the cat beat sheet of Blake the assessor at least in Act One you know what should be happening act one because right away you know which beats must be happening within the PAP and where again it's happening then same thing when you go to act two and act three

Jose Silerio 13:03
Yeah, it's it's pretty amazing there's a series on YouTube that has a they take the save the cat method and they beat it out with movies. It's wonderful to watch because you're like Back to the Future Ed, you know Terminator Titanic and you just start watching them and they literally are beating it out. So they're like here's this Pete This is when this happens in the movie this is when his happens in the movie and you just sit there and you use examples of it Can you give us a few examples of films that use save the cat very very well? hours the hours of the minute but just a couple of the big ones

Alex Ferrari 13:36
Yeah, even that big one guy like you know some of the Oscar winners like King's speech. Argo mean very clear and strong beats an Oscar nominated one which I really liked from two years ago was whiplash briefing again all the beats were there but the nice thing about you know this movies where you can see is that you know you can go there and I'm probably biased already by this night at this point right and done this for 10 years but right now I'm watching there and But still, right I try to avoid saying oh, there's the catalyst. Oh, there's the midpoint. Oh, it's

Jose Silerio 14:10
rough you know it's in Look, I'll tell you I've been in visual effects and post production for a long time. And you know, it's tough for me to go to a movie sometimes it's tough for me to kind of just let go and I just recently let go when I saw Star Wars so I completely was not looking at anything technical. I was just on the ride and it's for film to do that to you know, people like us that are really into it. It's at me that's a really good sign of the filmmaker who's been able to cut through all of our all of our armor, if you will, of biases like oh, that green screen didn't really look that great. Oh, oh, that story point. That's the catalyst. Oh, that's the turning point. And I catch myself doing that all the time now with with lesser movies, but like you

said, you know, the well made ones really are those where you forget what's there, but you don't see it.

Exactly oh you look back you go back to it later and watch it a second time and then you'll analyze it maybe in the second or third screening of it but the first time you just enjoy it and you know it's coming but you just kind of you're in the story as you should be.

exactly exactly and you know those are you know that they did their job well you know and like I said you know when we go back then we start realizing oh that's why you know we like this part because yes it was building up to the midpoint it's going down to the last and and all that

now did you have you seen new Star Wars? I have and how how's it how's it How's it hanging in this in the saving the cat paradise

Alex Ferrari 15:36
thanks very well in terms of the beat sheet itself of having the beats there in the way they introduce the characters of the setup you know, the setup,

no spoilers, no spoilers.

Yeah. Very careful. You know, even you know, the big moment the big all is lost moment. I think, you know, even though I'm not gonna say it out loud. I think I know you would definitely you know what I'm talking horse? Of course, of course. Right. So, you know, even though we don't specifics, we know that that beat was there. Till your third act, right, you know, what, the third app? Yes. And it did the beats are still there. So yeah, I think I would love to say that, you know, yeah, of course, JJ Abrams, and never wrote read save the cat before. Yeah, of course, I think. But, you know, I think great filmmakers, great writers, they just know, you know,

well, the thing is, if you look at all the big movies, the most successful movies, whether they be blockbusters or Oscar winners, generally they all follow the beat, they all follow the the structure, whether whether and I think what Blake did so well with save the cat is that screenwriting is a complex scenario, it's not an easy way to write, it's much easier to write in many ways a modern novel because you can Miranda and you can kind of just delve into the deepness of how the the tree looks today and you can't do that in the screenplay has to be very condensed has to be very concise every word is has to have a meaning and move the story forward. And I think what Blake did so brilliantly is that he brought it down to the masses where a lot of that kind of terminology was more upper tier if you will like at the you know at a at a film school or at the higher end like UCLA, you know, screenwriting programmer, these kind of really epic big huge institutions that were kind of like guarding the information and Blake kind of took that information and said now you all may have it and now here here now go and rights be well

Jose Silerio 17:36
I agree with you on that yeah there's definitely you know if you kind of go the the Joseph Campbell route of course which is very again there's nothing wrong but it's a great system as well but like you said, you know, when when Blake would save the cat he kind of brought it down to the masses those who weren't kind of more into mythological stuff but just wanted to set up this goes straight into well

Alex Ferrari 17:55
I mean the right idea what the writers journey was or what the hero's journey is it works well obviously with save the cat it's it's it's there but it's it's different it's a little bit not as simple like save the cat is as simple as you can get like if you're a screenwriter starting out, read save the cat then go off and read everything else but save the cat is a great base to start from because and that's again one of the reasons I wanted you guys on the show because the book was so influential, and then you can go off and read a million 1000 books. There's a nice

Jose Silerio 18:31
thing about that though, is that you know, Blake really started in roadsafe The gap is for writers really more than anybody for writers to help them move forward with their own writing and they feel like they're stuck and kind of go but it's also a great way to analyze movies oh god yes and figure out you know why they're working

Alex Ferrari 18:49
that's why he wrote that second book right the the exact the cat goes to the movies right? Exactly. Which was great. It was a wonderful example to kind of go in he's just started breaking down the movies. And you just like oh my god, I remember the first time I discussed with the first book I ever read was Sid fields. That was when I wasn't now I'm going way back this is like the 90s so and when I discovered that there was a structure because he was the first one I ever heard any kind of structure. Yeah, and I was like wait a minute, at 15 minutes this happens and I can't stand that I just started going back to all my movies. I'm like, oh my god this and I thought I'd cracked the code. It's like it was like it was so revolutionary to me. For someone who doesn't understand it doesn't know about it. It's so great. But again, let's say the cat does so well is it simplifies it so beautifully. And it's I don't want to say it's like right by numbers because there's a lot of creativity involved. But it gives you those 10 poles that you can just make it's a lot easier. You don't have to think about structure. You can you could just decorate the house, you'd have to worry about the foundation.

Jose Silerio 19:50
Exactly. I think that's the best way to put it. Because there is always an eight always stuff about it. But the serious you know there are always those the detractors who come to say disappointed by them. First thing and I think it when people say that they're not getting the whole picture because we're just talking about structure, you know, your your character traits,

Alex Ferrari 20:10
they're not a log everything exactly, it's

Jose Silerio 20:13
on the writer right and that's for you to make your characters unique and once you add that then it becomes a totally different story but you have the structure there already.

Alex Ferrari 20:22
Yeah, absolutely. It's like I said before, it's like literally you could you could have a house with a complete foundation and structure done. Now how that's decorated, it could be be accurate in a million different ways. It's all depending on how the writer wants to, to go forward. So a lot of screenwriters to always hear about coverage like oh, well can I get coverage and I got bad coverage, I got good coverage and your script needs coverage from a studio or production company. Can you explain a little bit about coverage to those who don't know in the audience? Well, I

Jose Silerio 20:51
think like you said, you know, coverage really is more of like, you know, you have the reader obviously, you have the higher ups who can't read all the scripts that go through their studios, so they need the cliff notes version scripts that come in, and I think that's that, to me, that's kind of what coverages you have the readers who who read it, and they put their notes down on the script that they read, kind of go into structure characters dialogue, you know, giving it it's sort of last and you know, different students have different styles, different methods, but it can be they have kind of a point system and they point they graded graded accordingly. And that's you know, I think that's the simple way of just describing what coverage is that now that piece of paper and hopefully, for most it's a one pager right? That goes not to the next Junior executive

Alex Ferrari 21:43
if it passes if it passes because they might they might have

Jose Silerio 21:46
exactly right it passes and goes to them they read the script and they they do their own version of the next higher up coverage it goes to the next higher up guy so that's you know, I think that's a simple like I said a simple version of explaining with Cobra GS it's really a cover letter you know for for for the script. Can you just telling us what the script is we're telling the the executive what what this group is all about and what what in what and how it meets certain criteria for them

Alex Ferrari 22:12
Now the thing is that as a as a screenwriter and I've gone through the coverage processes in the studio system it's very frustrating because sometimes you might not get the reader that you that's really gets it and a lot of people have passed on Oscar winners, you know in coverage and it happens and that's very frustrating a lot of times because you're like oh my god i like i forgot there's some legendary ones. I just don't remember any of them off the top of my head but that guy passes at certain studios will Star Wars was passed everywhere. I mean, just the original Star Wars was like what Yeah, you know,

Jose Silerio 22:46
that's very true. Yeah. Bigger producers going to like I don't think you know, they don't didn't get it.

Alex Ferrari 22:52
They don't they don't get it. So in the script was like, Oh, what's this? What's this? This giant monkey? Who's walking around with this guy? And he's his sister. What? No, forget there's incest involved. This is horrible. So yeah. So it has to do like

Jose Silerio 23:08
you said, you know, if there is it's sort involved in it, that your script gets to the right person at the right time. Yeah. So that they, you know, they that to ever the reader is that they're reading it in the right frame of mind in order to get it and be in, hopefully be objective enough. While while reading it.

Alex Ferrari 23:30
I think also one thing that I've learned in my my journeys and from talking to so many different screenwriters is and recover and producers and executives is that at a certain point, you have to even if they might pass on it, you have to write something so good, that even though you know i don't get it, but man, this is really well written. And there's a lot of that, like, this is not going to be made into movie, but you're a good writer. And I think that's what writers should do as best they can try to make the best thing as Steve Martin says, be so good that they can't ignore you.

Jose Silerio 24:03
Yeah, and I completely agree with that. And and, you know, this is what I always tell writers, especially those who say, okay, what's the secret to sort of breaking in? And I think the release isn't the secret. The secret is you come up with a really great script.

Alex Ferrari 24:17
script, oddly enough.

Jose Silerio 24:19
Yeah. And because it's then I truly believe this because I've heard it from a lot of executives from producers themselves. And they say, you know, the industry really is, you know, they're one thing for the great, the next great script, right? So the moment you have a great script that goes out, you know, it's going to, it's going to catch fire. It's going to spread on its own. It's because of you know what, once somebody says, there's a great script out there, everybody starts looking for it. And I think that's really sort of the secret to this breaking in but you have to do again, your homework, you have to show them like you were saying earlier, right? But as a writer, you have to show this people the readers or producers, that they know how to write the story. Know what it takes to be able to be to be a good storyteller?

Alex Ferrari 25:03
Yeah, I know a lot of writers who put in a script and they said, this is not going to work for us. But I want to hire you for another job because you can write. Yeah, and that happens all the time. And I know a lot of screenwriters who make a living, never being produced. Yeah, they just keep optioning or they're working or their script doctoring. And they've never had a single credit to their name. Yeah, but they've made millions doing this and behind the scenes, there's many guys who do this in Hollywood

Jose Silerio 25:32
and there's even a lot of those who not just option out you know, their scripts even though the script the single made what they get hired to rewrite again, you know, other scripts, again without being credited for it. You know, that's, that's a great job to have

Alex Ferrari 25:48
it to certain I guess, after you've made your first two or 3 million doing that, at a certain point, you just want to go you know, I wouldn't mind getting something made. Yeah, you know, but I wish I had these problems. I don't know about you, but I wish I had that like you know, I've already made my 3 million this year. So I really would you know,

Jose Silerio 26:08
they're not gonna just play around they may just play around you know, let's just follow the passion project and

Alex Ferrari 26:13
finally violin make that passion project I've been watching about that one legged hooker. And in, in, in New York, the Puerto Rican hooker who really wants to dance, but she only has one leg. It's a Sunday. It's winter. I

Jose Silerio 26:24
can tell you she has a heart of gold

Alex Ferrari 26:27
as Yes, yes. I tell you every time I hear I always tell people that that story that like Echo, you want to get into Sundance, make a movie about a handicapped one legged Puerto Rican hooker with a heart of gold who really wants to dance but is beaten by her father, her drunken Father, you know, who also happens to be a transgender I'm just saying that alone would win Sundance every year guaranteed. And, but you have to follow the 15 beats If not, it doesn't work.

Jose Silerio 27:00
doesn't work at all.

Alex Ferrari 27:03
So um, a lot of also with screenwriters, a lot of emphasis is put on the logline. And I know you guys talk a lot about loglines. Can you give a little bit of advice on how to construct a really great logline and explain what a logline is to people who don't know?

Jose Silerio 27:17
Well I think there's a lot going to be I'll be honest, a lot of FM is always the trickiest thing to write through. And I and I always tell this the writer so I, you know, Blake talks about it in the book in the save the cat that his process was, you know, you write the logline, one of the first things he did was write the logline right before beating it out. And and that's great, because it gives you a good idea of what your story is. But that particular login that you write, the first log line you write is most probably also not going to be the same log line, the same story, you know, that eventually what the script will be, right? Because it as you start to write in writing, things will start changing, you start discovering more about you know, your characters and stores will change. So there is a log line that I think it's great to have early on to keep sort of on track as to what your story what do you think your story is, or what you envision it to be, and, but there is also the log line at the very end that really captures the real story. And you have to know the difference in US writers, but permit us of what what regardless of which particular logline you're writing on the early on or the one that you really want to stand out ready the things that they look for are always going to be which you know, in this basic screenwriting one to one but they call them the big three, which is you know, it has to be able to clearly convey historic belongs to which is the hero number one, you know what the hero wants, meaning the goal and what's stopping the hero from getting the wand you know, what, what's the problem. So the hero the goal, and the problem for me are the big three. And I think that has to be very, very clear in a logline to make it really compelling and this isn't, you know, if this is like a one or two out of three, you have to make sure it's a three out of three thing. If not you have no story. And if that's not there in the logline, then your logline won't have a story. So it's very important to able to make sure that all the three elements have it in in in your logline that you have it in your logline. Another thing that I that I like which Blakely pointed out in the book is having a sense of irony in in the logline. And you know in in that what that really means is that I think what you want to show is that why is this hero, right? The person to go on this journey. So you'll want to be able to build up even in your logline. Right? That why this particular hero is going to be the hero. Why is he going to why is this journey going to be the hardest thing that this year is going to be? So it's really building that up because what you're really telling us is that of all the people that I this is not the right person to do it right? This is not the right person to go on this journey but that's what makes it compelling diehard Dyer exactly right? Yeah. If you end up always having you know, Mr. Universe go up against you know, the big evil you know this right but you know

Alex Ferrari 30:20
that's good that's commando that's coming

Jose Silerio 30:24
Steven Seagal is gonna be the end of the day

Alex Ferrari 30:28
right? I just there's no real there's never a chance like you know maybe Stephen might not want no he's gonna

Jose Silerio 30:35
write me no no then but that's that that works for who he is right and the the characters that the theater plays but again for the rest of you who are not writing, you know action type movies or commando type movies, right you have to find a way to tell us to make sure that you know just by reading the logline, a one sentence, you know, line that we understand we make we understand what the story is. But more importantly is that it's a very compelling story. And again, by doing that it's again giving us a sense of irony in the sense that it's you know, you're you're introducing us to a character who is not supposed to be going on this journey. Right.

Alex Ferrari 31:15
Go ahead. Sorry, go ahead. No, no, you brought up a really good point I wanted to kind of focus on real quick that the irony of a character that he's not supposed to he she's not supposed to be the one on the journey. Ripley from aliens comes to mind, you know, Sarah Connor, Senator Sarah Connor from Terminator. diehard john McClane, the lethal weapon boys like there's no reason for them to, you know, work. And they do what? Star Wars right? And Star Wars The young farm boy who's going up against the Empire?

Jose Silerio 31:49
Exactly. That's that's what think speech robot? Yes. The Word became just starters. Right? Right.

Alex Ferrari 31:57
Exactly. Like he has no real like, and that's and it's something as simple as that. Like, it's not a big huge action thing. It's about a guy who stutters who cast the not stutter, and he has to inspire a nation. Like that's, that's a simple concept. It's not it's not brain surgery. But then I started when you brought that up, I started going I just went back through my mental Rolodex of movies. And I'm like, you know a lot of those 80s action movies like commando like every john Claude Van Damme movie like every Steven Seagal movie and bad action movies. There isn't that a bad action movie? And don't get me i'd love all those movies because you know, I was young when I saw them and I love them. And there's character and charismatic things about Arnold and about you know, Sylvester Stallone and all those things in those certain kind of movies. But the movies that really stand the test of time like you could I just watch Die Hard again, because it's my Christmas movie I always watched because I don't care what anyone says. It's the best Christmas movie of all time. I don't I don't care what anyone says. Oh, yes. has no if you don't see Hans Gruber falling out of a falling out of a window at the end of the day. It's not really Christmas for me. So that's just me. Whoa, whoa, whoa. So um, but I just literally saw it like a few weeks ago. And I was like, I can't believe how wonderful and how brilliantly it's done. And it literally that movie alone spawned hundreds of ripoffs like Die Hard in a boat, Die Hard in the train, Die Hard in the plane, that all this kind of stuff. It was such a brilliant and Pinnacle movie, but it's that what you were talking about. It's the ironic irony of that character who has no business doing that predator is another one. Like, even though Arnold and this entire team are big muscle bound, but they're up against something that's they have no business. They can't be. And that's what makes a good, really, really good compelling story. And I think that's where a lot of writers especially have bad action movies. Really could learn something from please, please

Jose Silerio 33:56
I think that's a die hard is a great example because, you know, in the 80s you know, we were used to seeing all the Schwarzenegger movie right? They know the Rambo Stallone movies. They're all like this muscle Bodley, you know, and suddenly we interview we'll get introduced to john McClane. It's not really the tone of it.

Alex Ferrari 34:16
No, he's a normal dude. He's dude, he's in his locker,

Jose Silerio 34:20
and he's about to get a divorce. Right? by the state together.

Alex Ferrari 34:25
He's a New Yorker in LA, which Trust me, I understand.

Jose Silerio 34:29
I think you know, it's significant. He's totally different guy who gets thrown into, you know, in a bigger than life scenario.

Alex Ferrari 34:40
Yeah, absolutely. And then the brilliance of the you know, the barefoot and the bleeding and I it's like, it's just so brilliantly crafted. I don't know I forgot the name of the screenwriter of that one. But it's so brilliantly crafted, so brilliantly directed, and it holds, even though it's 80s. And you can you know, It's so fun to watch because of you know, all the ad stuff in it. But it's so Britt Robocop another one of those absolutely brilliant, like, there's no reason for that hero to be able to do what he does, and go through what he's going through. So that's a great I've never heard anyone say that. But the irony of the character, or the hero is something that should be very important in your writing process.

Jose Silerio 35:24
I think so because again, it's, there's not that sense of irony, meaning that your hero is not the right person, or shouldn't be the person to be going against this problem or having this goal, right. So right there, you'll find out easily that you'll end the write up stop writing by page 30. Because you're unable to generate more conflict for your hero, right? You lose right with a sense of tension. Because your hero you haven't as we like to sing, save the cat, you haven't taken your hero as far back as possible. Right? So if they're already a great superhero in the first app, right, then again, whatever you throw out in front of them the second that is something that they can easily overcome. And once that happens, you know your story ends at page 30

Alex Ferrari 36:09
that's I think one of the main problems with most Superman movies or even telling the Superman story it's so difficult to create conflict for a god and it's except for the very first one that Richard Donner did and he did it so magically it's like every and we've all been everyone's been trying to get back to that but it's tough to create conflict like the Batman that's why Batman works better than Superman because Batman is a dude who Yeah, he's a billionaire and he has stuff but he can get hurt he can get blood he can get his back broken he can do all this stuff

Jose Silerio 36:43
and his backstory is so much more complex he was orphaned his parents were killed he saw them get killed

Alex Ferrari 36:50
you know it's so much so much Meteor.

Jose Silerio 36:53
Exactly you know it's not just a physical story but really more of the emotional story is what's what's pulls us in

Alex Ferrari 36:59
so I'm really curious to see how this Batman vs Superman yeah fiasco I think it's going to be a fiasco that's just me but I just my personal opinion I looked at the trailer the other day I'm now we're going off topic here. But I saw the trailer the other day and I was just like wow, I don't know if this is gonna work I hope it does. I'm a fan but you know, but then I saw Captain I saw that Captain America Civil War I'm like, this is brilliant. You've got to like look at the conflict in that it's like that. It's the ultimate conflict of friends that we've grown up with if your people seen through these movies, and now they're fighting for ideologies, it's just like, brilliant. Brilliant. I'm sorry, I've gone off on a tangent on superhero movies. I apologize. So um, so what are some of the biggest mistakes you see with screenwriter screenplays? When you read them from like first time writers or just screenplays in general?

Jose Silerio 37:56
I think especially especially you know for us and I would say that we get a lot of for the first time screenwriters even though when they say first time you know it's those within several months haven't really sold anything yet. And one thing I've noticed of play is that a lot of screenwriters tend to write off write a character that's based off another character that they saw in a movie

Alex Ferrari 38:22
really you see are you still seeing a lot of

Jose Silerio 38:24
that Yeah, it is. And it's like we're talking about Die Hard right right. Oh God I die hard in the plane I heard in the train here I didn't know she had sudden

Alex Ferrari 38:33
Sudden Impact Don't forget that one john climb on top of a die hard in a ice rink

Jose Silerio 38:38
so there's a lot of builders I think a lot of people kind of do that still you know I want to make the next taken I want to make

Alex Ferrari 38:45
no there's a there was a after taking came out there I must have been 1000 taken scripts make made

Jose Silerio 38:51
Yeah, right. Or after bridesmaids came up I want to make the next bridesmaid or the hangover right after having overcome I want to make the next time over. So the writing characters writing stories based off other characters have been seen already or that they simply know from watching right from from the film, it's not characters that they really know, in real life. Right? And I think that that's one miss the one big mistake. screenwriters new especially the newer ones do nowadays is that, you know, they start writing off, you know, characters at Oh, this is what john McClane would do. But again, you're not writing john McClane anymore and you have to find you know, in your own writing again, we mentioned this earlier, um, coming up with your own voice what we know what makes you unique as a writer, you have to be able to find you know, that the what makes your characters unique as well. And that's really by you know, right you writing characters based off people you know in real life. Right? You know, that crazy art but you have you know, or you know, absolutely the body, you have from high schools now Your mother is really successful, but in a bad marriage, but there are a lot of things that you can pull out for your people who surround this baby. Right? And I think, you know, that makes it more interesting because now we start seeing people who we know you know can be a little bit more complex who may not necessarily go left when we think everybody's going left you know, what, what makes them different. And I think that's something that newer writers need to learn more how to build better characters.

Alex Ferrari 40:30
I think also what you're saying is advice for every aspect of filmmaking in the sense of Be yourself and stop trying to be someone else whether that be a writer whether that be a director, like I'm gonna be the next Quinn Tarantino I'm like, No, you're not. You can't be because there's only one Quentin Tarantino there's only one Scorsese there's only one Shane Black. Yeah, no, there's don't I mean, I mean, how many people try to rip off Shane Black? After lethal weapon. And after, like, everyone tried to write like, Shane? Yeah, when he was making dough, in the olden days, when everyone was making $2 million, a spec script, you know, sales that don't happen nowadays. But if you just true Be true to them, because if you notice, all of those guys, all of those guys are original. They're all they're all being themselves. Yeah.

Jose Silerio 41:18
They were in their original voice came out 1020 years ago. Right? It worked for them. So now it's time for the newer writers who want to break into to find what is your original voice for today's time?

Alex Ferrari 41:32
Right? Because things that worked 20 years ago will not work today. Yeah. And that's that's a huge and that's when screenwriting and filmmaking is a general statement. A lot of people keep going at it from that point of view of like, I'm going to do what Chamberlain like no, don't know. It's a different place different world today.

Jose Silerio 41:49
So I think if I may, yes, please have time. But another, I think, common mistake that writers have, your writers have an artist is a simply over writing. Especially when it comes to the description and the action part of any we're not, it may not necessarily be an action movie. But you know, when they start describing the action of government that's going on, you know, they describe it to a, you know, the most minute

Alex Ferrari 42:15
or they write it like a novelist like, or even

Jose Silerio 42:17
write it to describe a character, they over describe it. And I think what this does is, especially for me, as I'm reading it, it takes away a sense of creativity on my end, because now you're making me think very specifically, of an action of a person. And that in a way kind of takes away from the read. Because now My mind is again, and this is something readers I mean, I'm sorry, writers have to realize is that your first audience is not the person who buys that movie ticket. Your first audience is the reader, right? And you have to know that you know, they don't have the benefit of music, they don't have the benefit of actual faces of actors, then they can follow. So reading a page is a little bit harder, they have to work a little bit harder in order to follow the story. So don't overdo it. Right? But But prove by putting in too much detail by making it too, you know, too specific, that you know that your own that the reader themselves that aren't losing that, that ability to build the world on their own and get more into it. I think if as readers, if we're given that opportunity to build the world, a little bit on our own as well, following reading the story, then it becomes more interesting and becomes more exciting.

Alex Ferrari 43:33
You know, I was the other day, I was reading a script that was sent to me by a professional writer, like a real, you know, with credits with everything for a project. And when I read it, I had been reading so many bad scripts, that when I read this one, I was like, Oh, this is what a writer is like, it was so the structure was was spot on. Every word was like and I was analyzing it was I was reading it because I was just so taken by like, oh, okay, so he condensed everything right? He didn't overwrite everything. He left it open for your interpretation. But yeah, gave you just enough. If there's that fine balance when you're writing like that, and it was just so wonderful to watch to read. It was a joy to read as opposed to reading, you know, 98% of scripts. Yeah. Which is, which is rough.

Jose Silerio 44:27
Yeah, no, I I've had those moments. Right. From a professional. Right, right. And it's like, before, you know what you read in page 90.

Alex Ferrari 44:37
Right? Exactly. And you're a slow reader.

Jose Silerio 44:42
Until I know, this is a good one.

Alex Ferrari 44:44
This is a good and I think that's also advice for readers like people who are trying to get readers to get coverage and stuff like that they will notice because they've read so much crap all the time that when something of quality walks through the door, whether they like the matter The subject matter or not, they'll recognize talent in the writing. And it's in a come in in a blares out it like that just it screams at you. Because, you know, it's not like you're in a bunch of William Goldman's scripts. And Shane Black scripts and Tarantino scripts are all tossed in, you're like, oh, who's really good? No, it's like a bunch of crap. And then you get that one piece of gold that comes in every once in a while. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. So, so I was fascinated when I was doing a little research for this interview, I found out that save the cat has some software. Yes. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I was kind of exciting. Yeah, we

Jose Silerio 45:46
actually do have a software and the nice thing about the software, it really follows the save the cat method.

Alex Ferrari 45:51
Oddly enough,

Jose Silerio 45:52
I said, too late out, I guess what I should have said, laid out in the book in the first book today Blake kind of goes through it step by step, right? So So even in the software, it kind of forces you if they may use that word, it kind of forces you first to come up with, you know, what's the genre that you want to pick for this story, you know, then it tells you to do the logline. Right. And then but you're not able to jump right away into the beat sheet, or the board, you know, unless you go through it step by step first. And but the nice thing about it is that if you do follow the steps coming up with logline, then only with a logline, you'll be able to go into the beat sheet. Once you have your beat sheet, that's only when you're able to go into the board, you know. So it has all the elements of what makes the same the cap method. And what they said it kind of forces you to go through it step by step. I think that's the nice thing about it, because it really helps you think and not just, I know there's arthritis, we're always eager to jump the page one and fade in, right. But it but that can also always get us into trouble right away, there is you know, you take the time, the first thing about the idea first, the premise and the stories are fleeting thoughts that will be the outlines and building structure before you actually go to page one. And that's that that's that's what I think this software is good at. It helps you sort of focus little by little step by step, that when by the time you do get to page one fade in, you know you've done the hard work already, right? Like I said, it follows all the rules of save the cat, it takes you to the beat sheet, it takes you to the board, the 40 cards board and you can see it all laid out in front of you in your screen

Alex Ferrari 47:35
now Can you can you explain I was gonna ask Can you explain what the board is? Because a lot of people might not know what the board is. I love using the board when I when I write it's so helpful. So can you explain it because there's the software version, then you're obviously taking it from a real life version, like actual board and stuff. So can you explain what that is?

Jose Silerio 47:52
Yeah, and it's same thing, you know, when when, first my introduction to the board also came from Blake, and how we how we explain it is that, you know, he walked into a producer's room. And oddly enough, same thing happened to me a few years after he told me about it was the end he sees, you know, it's corkboard in front of him where your little index cards laid out. And what the test is, you know, it saved the cat, how we have it is that you have a big letters, cork board, or whiteboard, or whatever it is you're writing, you break that board into four rows, each row representing an app, well, but you're gonna say okay, but there's four rows. So why 4x? Well, it's x 1x, two, a x to be an x three. And in each row, you have, we have 10 cards, and each card really is a scene or a sequence. Not meaning that again, it's always you can start what's you're doing really here now with the board, surely, you are writing, right, and you're working on scenes already, you're doing scene structure work already here. And it allows you to sort of the follow your hero, in terms of its plot in terms of its emotional story. Throughout, you know, you're able to lay out scenes and see if it's working in Act One, or in Act Two, you know, if it's not, you can move them around. But the nice thing about it is that again, you're able just in a very visual, immediate sense. Just by looking at the board, you're able to look at it right away and see how the story is playing out. You can see where the characters are moving forward. You know, you can even I think one thing I always emphasize with writers, so when they do the boards, make sure you're also able to follow the emotional story in the board. You know, one thing we like talking about in save the cat is having the base story. And what the beast story is, is for those who are familiar with it, what it represents, it's really just the theme of the story. Right? So what what they don't do

Alex Ferrari 49:52
is that it's at that subplot or is that the B is that is a subplot or is that

Jose Silerio 49:56
a subplot? It's the emotional story got it. That the Yeah that you that you're stoked that you're here almost go so

Alex Ferrari 50:02
then tight. So what's the emotional story of Titanic just so people have a reference?

Jose Silerio 50:06
Well, let's say for rose, right? The physical story is, I'm going to get married to what's his name? Billy Zane. Right, Billy is the emotional story for her is that she has to be able to tell her mom, I'm not gonna do what you're telling me anymore. And she wants to be my own person. Right? Right. And that's what jack? What's his name? Leonardo. The capital teaches her

Alex Ferrari 50:27
because she's she's, she is the character she is the main character.

Jose Silerio 50:31
I agree with you. He is the main character. And that's what it likes it Leo does for he's the one who forces her to learn the lesson to learn the theme of the story in order to be her own person.

Alex Ferrari 50:42
So in other words, it's not a subplot. But like exactly like the outside the the obvious thing is like, I'm gonna marry this guy, and I'm going on this boat. Yeah, what the emotion about what the intention of her character is this, what she's going after, this is the the inner struggle or the inner journey, the inner journey,

Jose Silerio 51:02
it's the inner journey, it's the internal story, got it. with Luke Skywalker, the external was picked on the Death Star, right, the internal, so he needs to learn to be a Jedi to believe and to trust to trust, and even. So that's what you know. So going back now to the board when it does right there. So you can mark this cards, you know, whether you use color, or whatever it is, it's the market, you know, let's say blue is going to be external story. Red is going to be internal story. It's a simple that that you can put on each card, and then you can see where you're playing out the emotional story as well. So I think the board is, like I said, hopefully I'm explaining it well enough. Now, yeah, that you're able to see right away just by standing in front of it. You know, what you have, where the story's going, where your hero is going, you know, how you're playing out the physical and the emotional story throughout. But it's also you know, it's same see if you do it now, meaning, you know, if you do get the board right away before you start writing pages, if you see like a certain sequence is not working, like in the middle of second app, then you can either take it out, put it away for another day, or maybe you say after, you know, this sequence might work better in Act One. But you can do it right away. You're supposed to doing it later, or after six months or nine months of having written a first draft, but instead to say, wait a minute, page 50 to 55 wasn't working. But you know, I should have known that nine months ago. Right? Right, and save myself the time. Right? So that's the beauty of what the board

Alex Ferrari 52:34
is now this in the software, do you have that option for the dots? Yes, you do. Oh, great.

Jose Silerio 52:41
You know, again, get the all of that we won't have time, but there are little places where you can assign color to it. Perfect. Sounds wonderful. And it's just a simple thing, but even assigning color to characters. I think it's a wonderful little trick. You know, if, let's say green is going to be my villain. But if you're looking at your board, and your entire second row has no green in it, then you know you're in trouble. Because you don't have a villain in it. And the villain is the source of conflict.

Alex Ferrari 53:08
That would be that would be the first Twilight movie. The worst films I've ever seen. I don't care what anyone says. Who's horrendous. The villain shows up 20 minutes. I don't care spoiling it. 20 minutes at the end. I'm like, Are you kidding me? Are you kidding? The first hour and 20 minutes just have them pining for each other. It washorrendous. horrendous

Jose Silerio 53:32
There you go. See if they had the board.

Alex Ferrari 53:34
They had what? Like look, they made a couple bucks on that. So what do we know? But they but it's not definitely not being studied by screenwriters. For their for their structure, a story narrative character or directing. But I'm sorry again, I apologize. I just couldn't like when you said that. I'm like yes, no villain. I that's the first movie that came to them. Like, because look what happens in Star Wars first, like three, four minutes of the movie? Yeah, the best the best opening of a villain arguably ever and everybody and that was a wonderful thing about that film is that I've read I've listened to I've probably seen every interview with George Lucas ever about that movie about Star Wars and he said that no matter where you were in the world, even if you had no idea who Darth Vader was you knew and you didn't speak English Yeah, you knew that was the bad guy. Yeah that was that's the brilliance and universal appeal of of those movies is like you knew and it did that thing with Kylo Ren as well that and the way they've designed his mask and it was all very strategic to portray a villain instantly. Yeah, it's

Jose Silerio 54:47
another great example if I made is you know which which again was one of my favorites was whiplash which I mentioned. Cyber the way they introduced the first two minutes. For me, it just Just as good as introducing Darth Vader

Alex Ferrari 55:02
I mean I'll tell you what when I watched that movie it was it was hard to watch that's a movie that's hard to watch a little bit because he's so brilliant at being just just horrible human. Yeah, exactly he's so brilliant at it that it just I felt like I'm like just leave man just it's not worth it man just go don't play the damn drums anymore Just go

Jose Silerio 55:28
get rewatch but we know you're gonna want to walk away

Alex Ferrari 55:31
but you know what's brilliant is and he deserved the Oscar without question because he carries that movie does the whole movie is him as I may know he's not the main character but he is so overpowering as the actor and the character is so overpowering. That without him there's so much he's he's the Empire. He is here and this poor kid is Luke and it's like, but that's if Darth Vader was yelling at Luke throwing symbols at its

Jose Silerio 56:01
chair with the force

Alex Ferrari 56:02
yes just throwing the force like come on Luke three beats three beats with the lightsaber Come on. Now and you also have an app right to save the cat app is that different than the software?

Jose Silerio 56:18
No, it's it's it's it's it's the same but and again, like you said it's an app it's for your laptop, it's for your iPhone, or your iPad or Android. I'm have to be clear and I'm not sure about that. But I know you can work on your iPhone but it helps you go through the same thing it's sort of like a miniature version of what you can get on your laptop or your computer got it but it's the same thing it helps you go through again your logline and then the beats and then you can even do the cards here but each card will be like one because it is just an iPhone

Alex Ferrari 56:53
like wild card it doesn't give

Jose Silerio 56:54
you the slot you can play around it you can you can get what's the word play between the app and the software I think you can link it if I if I have that right okay so what you have in there in your app we can go from the cloud and you know write about in your in your in your computer

Alex Ferrari 57:11
and if you're at Starbucks writing your your script and you have an idea real quick and you don't have your laptop yeah pop it into your iPad or iPhone because I was I was talking to another Screenwriter The other day is like people here in LA if people outside of La don't understand that if you walk into a Starbucks there's at least two people writing a screenplay at Starbucks in Los Angeles at any time of the day Yeah,

Jose Silerio 57:33
exactly.

Alex Ferrari 57:34
Exactly never fails never never fails so I'm I'm now comes to the part of the show that is the toughest questions I ask all my all my guests so are you are you ready

Jose Silerio 57:44
sir? All right, I hope so. Okay,

Alex Ferrari 57:47
and what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether that be in the film business or in life in general

Jose Silerio 57:53
Ah, you know what? This for me it's it's the discipline of writing this for me personally I think it's something also the you know a lot of writers struggle with it is especially those who want to make writing their career job

Alex Ferrari 58:11
it's time that white page that white page is a mountain

Jose Silerio 58:13
yeah and but it is really just simply finding the time day in and they are yeah to say I'm going to ride literatures for 10 minutes 30 minutes yep one are you are a page a day because it's so easy to get caught up with him especially except for those the newer ones especially those who have a day job it's it you can easily get caught up in other things and before you know it a week has passed you haven't written a single page before you know it's two months ready. Right? You haven't written 10 pages. So it is it's not necessarily a lesson right? But this being able to spring to discipline yourself and say that I will be writing today and again, for me it's you have to put a goal a daily goal that is that is attainable. for for for you. So you know, I know other writers who do like a page a day. I know who someone who does six pages a day we just stuff I tried doing six pages a day. It's it's sounds a lot easier than London. Yes. But once you do it, it's tough. But you have to find a system that works for you that makes it like I said, attainable each and every day. So whether you go by page count or by minute count, you have to do it and if it means having to wake up a little earlier or tell your kids at the end of the day you know story that is playing right now on its own Yes, exactly. Oh man that you have to you have to do it. And I think if anything, it's just that you have to keep writing if you want really be a good writer, and I tell this to all writers, you just have to write it's it's not just writing but also reading scripts. Not necessarily just watching movies, just watching movies is nice, but lead scripts Well, you know, and you have to find a way to put that into your schedule as well. Yeah, that's certainly the best lesson for for one, to become a not just a good writer but to be really a working writer.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:14
You know, the, if I if I may quote Woody Allen 90% of success is just showing up. Very true it's and it's true that consistency of showing up every day and doing the work even if it's five minutes, even if it's 10 minutes, but it's that everyday thing and that's what people get heart like if you can get into that routine of just doing it every day little by little and trust me I know that even even Academy Award winning writers have problems Yeah, writing it like they're just like, oh god, I gotta go and write you know, it's like it's it's writing is one of the most laborious processes on the planet and it's one of the most underappreciated parts of the industry without question because without a great script, there is no movies and it's it is rough so that's a great great piece of advice. Now what are your top three favorite films of all time?

Jose Silerio 1:01:07
Oh, man, that's I think this is even the tougher question Yes, yes, yes, this big three All right. One would be I think the safe answer, but I really loved it and it's one of those movies I keep watching over and over again. Is Shawshank Redemption of course.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:19
Of course it's one of my top three as well why Twilight obviously too but no no Shawshank knows second a close second was Twilight No. No Shawshank is it's it's amazing it's it's it's it's honestly To me it's as perfect of a movie as you can get it for me because it's my generations godfather

Jose Silerio 1:01:39
through Yeah, very very true. I think Same thing with me. You know, it's one of the reason why I love it so much is because it really it kind of breaks so many rules, but it all works. Yep. Right? It's all a cool story to read. Is it Andy's? Right? What? You're going to go there at the end of the movie, you're just like, Who cares?

Alex Ferrari 1:01:58
So I was gonna say like, whose story and like now you when he was asked me that my whose story is it? Is it it is? Is it rent? Yeah, I think it's, I think it's read maybe because he's the narrator.

Jose Silerio 1:02:10
Because he's the news. In terms of and again, for me, it's always like who had the biggest change? Right? And it's, and it's read. Yeah. You read his story, although you would think a lot of the action or out of the action being instigated was being instigated by by Andy.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:26
But Andy, but Andy didn't make that large of a change not not as big as he was just doing what he does. Yeah, exactly. But read from the moment you see and you actually see them in different temples of the movie when that whole interview with the with the board the parole board. Yeah, how he changes and you can literally I mean that he really lays it out for you Frank Darabont does, and it's absolutely brilliant. And another one of his movies Green Mile, I love Love, love, love green mo so go ahead sorry

Jose Silerio 1:02:57
about Shawshank again I think that's number one for me yeah um another one to I guess again there's no really order of course. One of the most perfect scripts I've read in the movie as well came out really really nicely. was a Little Miss Sunshine such a

Alex Ferrari 1:03:14
really good movie it's such a brilliant movie

Jose Silerio 1:03:16
I I tell you an evening I met Elvis oh right this when I read the script, I said it as as perfect as I could get reading a script. Yeah, it's, it's tight. It's a tight vibe. And you're following all these characters again, one of those that you know Michael Arndt did a great job is building all these characters. We get to know all the characters right there in the first 10 minutes. We're following all their stories in it's it's great. It's one of those again, it's my my way of engaging like it's a favorite of mine. If you know when you're just surfing the BVI. You happen to see it, then you stop. Yeah, absolutely. 50 pounds ready before, right? It's one of those Little Miss Sunshine. And then the other one, a smaller movie that I really, really, really loved as well. Was Billy Elliot.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:00
Oh, yeah, I love Billy Elliot. I remember Billy Elliot, that was a really sweet film.

Jose Silerio 1:04:04
Yeah. And I think that this I think maybe just happened to be fine with me when when I had my first child when they first came out. So the whole Father Son, thing was,

Alex Ferrari 1:04:12
you secretly want to dance I understand.

Jose Silerio 1:04:17
I love you know, how they played out in our kids journey of him simply wanting to dance played against the backdrop of what's happening in his dad's world, you know, with the coal miner striking and having a bigger theme out there, but yet their theme really was just the same. I think it just makes you laugh. It makes it cry. It's what the movie should be. That's a great that's a great list. Yeah, so that's kind of my top three I think. For now.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:46
For now. Yeah.

Jose Silerio 1:04:48
2016 Yes, Mr. Morrow, it may change. Of course, of course.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:52
Now, what's the most underrated film you've ever seen?

Jose Silerio 1:04:54
Ah, this is a tough one. I think a lot there. I always look for you know, good movies. Every year just like one small movie that comes out that for me to say I didn't even know that came out in the movie as in I watch it in DVD but I love that completely. Right and there's sort of like they have that in the field but although there are recognizable actors in nature, sure, right, I think, like, in 2013 there's like the way way back. We Oh, yeah, I like the way way back, which is great movie that Steve Carell Toni Collette, you know, great cast. There was, yes, in 2014. There's a smaller one. With the skeleton, the skeleton twins. This is Bill Hader and Kristen Wiig. I haven't seen that one. It's again, it's a small movie, right? It's very indie ish. I just love how they built the characters and the relationship that they have. So you know, so it goes from me every year, I have kind of the one that they love that they felt like was real. And so 2015 was 2015 2015. For me. I was gonna say, but it's also actually looked at not being too happy to for 2014. Again, this, this is where I leave you. Okay. But you know, I think one big one that I thought was underrated or just I didn't even hear about it until somebody told me was moon. Everything moon.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:12
Oh, yeah, that's the one with some rock. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Jose Silerio 1:06:16
I in terms of like, thriller, movies. is one of those episodes. Wow, this really grabbed me. It was like, What the hell is going on here? Really? Just nicely. Why don't you just read the following one character? Yeah, some Rachael Rockwell character, right? And then it's like, you're caught in it.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:35
You're in, you're in the web,

Jose Silerio 1:06:36
you can't get up in you know, like I said, I found out about it simply because somebody told me about it. And I said, Look, I had to watch it, then to not tell everybody. Have you seen movies?

Alex Ferrari 1:06:47
That's a brilliant. That's the brilliant thing about when you find a little gem like that, like, why hasn't someone else seen this? What's going on? Yeah. So where can people find more about you and more about save the cat?

Jose Silerio 1:07:00
Well save the cat. So website, savethecat.com or Blakesnyder.com. But it's the same, I think the easy one to remember, save the cat.com. And in there, the website talks about you know, things that we do workshops that we have, consultations, we do but it also like we also bring up big sheets of movies that have come out, which is always a great resource for writers.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:23
You have some new ones now to fill up some of the most recent movies.

Jose Silerio 1:07:27
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we have people who contribute into it. So So that's kind of the best way to keep up with with save the cat. And again, like I said, it's it's an ongoing thing. It's a way of keeping, you know, Blake's method in alive and updated all the time.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:47
Fantastic. Well, Jose, man, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure talking to you today. I hope you had fun.

Jose Silerio 1:07:52
All right. Thank you very much for having us, Alex.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:55
Appreciate it. Seriously, guys, if you've not read this book, you've got to go out and get it save the cat is an awesome, awesome book. It's just Blake wrote it so wonderfully. And it really opens up your eyes to a lot of different avenues of what it takes to be a screenwriter and how to tell a story. And his method is pretty amazing how it matches up in the in the world of movies today. And in the actual blog post or the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com/071. I put a couple of videos of how Blake's method, mastery measures up to certain movies, and they actually go through scene by scene of these very famous Hollywood movies. And you can see where all of his points line up perfectly. It's quite remarkable to watch. So definitely check that out. Now, guys, again, if you want to be part of the indie film, hustle, tribe, and community, that's what we're really about. We're trying to connect not only you guys to me, but you guys to each other, and create a community where we can share knowledge, share information, and share resources to get our movies made. And I've kind of put together a hub for everybody to go to and talk and communicate and exchange information and so on. If you go to our Facebook group, our indie film, hustle, private group on Facebook, and all you got to do is go to indiefilmhustle.com/Facebook. And not only do you get like, first cracks at all of our new articles, and posts and videos and things like that, but you get to watch and listen to other filmmakers and see what they're doing, and see how they can help you and learn from them. And if you have any information about things you've read on the line somewhere that might help the community, please post it there as well. So definitely check that out. indiefilmhustle.com/Facebook. And as always, please go to filmmakingpodcast.com and leave us a honest review of the show. It really helps to show out a lot and it helps us get the word out and what we're trying to do with indie film hustle So, thank you guys so much for all the amazing emails and messages I get from you guys, I've really it really keeps me going and really helps me on those tough days where I don't want to get up and don't want to do a new pod guys, but I love doing this for you guys. And I love helping you guys out as much as I can. So thank you from the bottom of my heart for all the support and well wishes. And I will continue to do the good work that we're doing here at indie film hustle for you guys. We got some really cool stuff coming up in the next few weeks. Got some announcements coming up in the next few weeks. So stay tuned for all of that. And I wish you guys nothing but the best on your filmmaking journey. And it is a glorious one. If you know what you're doing. Thank you guys. I'll see you soon. Keep that hustle flowing. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 070: A Filmmaker’s Focus – Podcast Interview with Alex Ferrari

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So this week I’m doing something different. I occasionally get asked to be guest on other people’s podcasts. In this podcast I go over topics I might not have spoken about on the IFH Podcast in the past so to mix things up, with the permission of the hosts,  I’ll be uploading bonus episodes with these interviews.

In my effort to bring you more value I think you’ll enjoy these interviews. First up is my interview with Doc Kennedy from the Filmmaker’s Focus Podcast. This interview was a ton of fun. Let me know what you think in the comments below.

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Alex Ferrari 1:08
So guys, today we have a special episode, I did an interview a while back on a wonderful podcast called filmmakers focus with Doc Kennedy. And the interview was so cool. I really wanted you guys to take a listen to it. Doc did a great job. And I talked about a whole bunch of different things about the industry that I haven't spoken about before on on the show, so I thought it'd be a nice little bonus episode to kind of toss in there for you guys. So I hope you guys like this bonus episode. So enjoy.

Doc Kennedy 1:40
Hey, Alex, welcome to the show.

Alex Ferrari 1:41
Thanks for having me, man.

Doc Kennedy 1:43
This is exciting for me. I love, love, love indie film, hustle.

Alex Ferrari 1:47
Thank you so much

Doc Kennedy 1:48
Awesome stuff going on.

Alex Ferrari 1:49
I appreciate that, brother. Thanks again. I appreciate that.

I was excited to see that indie film Academy recently ranked you number two. Man, that's, that's crazy.

Jason is Jason's a good friend of mine. And he did that on purpose. He called me up he's like, I'm not going to ranking number one, man. I'm just not going to do it. It was just a lot of fun. Because I always we, Jason I have kind of like a wonderful rivalry. But it's very friendly. We're really good friends. And, and even ever since he I think he mentioned it to me once when we're talking when they just like Hey, did you know you like the number one filmmaking podcast on iTunes, and I'm like, I am and, and I looked at her like I am. And the second like, within three hours, I had a post about it. I was promoting it as the number one film and he's like, son, oh, that was Black Friday for me Alex but we're friends now Look, man, we'll take any look, we'll take anything that anything I could give you a little bit of a leverage or a little bit of a, you know, bump to help you move forward and your business is is greatly appreciated. And, and I think it's always a good thing for for all of us, you know, in this space, the filmmaking, space podcast, specifically, to kind of help each other out as much as we can, because we just want to get more people, more filmmakers to, to come to this amazing resource that is podcasting. And there are some really good podcasts. There's some really horrible ones. But there are some really, really good and there's a lot of great information in this medium that I think filmmakers are slowly starting to come around where a lot of the other niches like internet marketing or business or other things like that have kind of you know, they these guys get, you know, millions of views a month, a downloads a month. So it's something that I'm trying to do myself just trying to bring as many filmmakers to the podcast medium as possible.

Doc Kennedy 3:54
I love it. Nice for me. So I'm doing a lot driving right now, I'm able to just flip on your show, Jason show, download all this information into my brain that you know, while I'm doing nothing, literally, right? I'm able to soak in all this knowledge and I mean, it's invaluable to me.

Alex Ferrari 4:15
Yeah, it's I mean I when I I've been a big podcast listener for probably over a year now and I just started listening to a lot of guys outside of our niche and outside of the film industry just kind of learning about all this kind of stuff and a man it's insane. Like the stuff that the knowledge, the knowledge bombs, if you will, are insane, that kind of stuff. You can sit down and listen to like, you know, I just listened to a podcast on Tim Ferriss. I love Tim Ferriss podcast. He's like one of the top podcasts out there. And he was interviewing Kevin Costner. He interviewed Jamie Foxx and you just sit there listening to like Jamie Foxx talk about how he came up and stuff like that's freaking awesome. And you get so many cool stories and not only entertaining but the knowledge that they come With his insane I was just listening to Gene Simmons this morning at the gym, from you know, kiss, and he has a new book out about, you know, being a businessman. And the stuffing was laying down I was like, This is awesome. podcasts are so so powerful, you know, and whoever's listening to this obviously knows that now, but but it's so so powerful especially it's kind of like an audio book but really quick bytes of great information if the show's done right.

Doc Kennedy 5:29
And agree more. I love this man. So, uh, why don't you give us just a little bit of background about yourself, Alex?

Alex Ferrari 5:36
Um, I am a carnie I've been working on the carnival. No, I'm joking. I'm

Doc Kennedy 5:43
Sure there was something.

Alex Ferrari 5:43
Yeah, I know exactly right. I'm a circus circus folk. Now I'm basically I've been a filmmaker for about 20 years, I've been in the film industry for about 20 years, I've probably produced over finished and post production where I've made my bones most of the time. Most of the time in this business. I've been in post production for about 15 years in the business of post production. I've delivered probably over 1000 projects, or more, you know, between commercials, music, videos, feature films, short documentaries, and all that kind of stuff. And that experience of just being in the post side of things has given me a very unique perspective on the film industry as well as being the director for the last 12 years or so. I've been a director commercials, music videos, short films, and I've been produced I've been a producers on features as well. And I have a very unique perspective on the film industry because I've, I get a front row seat, but I get a back door seat, and I'm in that back door room while the things are going on in post where you sit down and you're in a room for sometimes months at a time with people. And a lot of information gets shared and in a good way not unlike you know, the cheesy gossip boy, but just like you should sit there and you watch what they go through you sit and you see the processes of finishing the movie, the technical aspects of finishing the movie, the story, all that kind of stuff. But the business side is very fascinating to me because you kind of see what they go through like Oh, if I would have had this Act, or maybe I would have done this or, and figured something out or if Oh, you know, like a perfect example give you a perfect example of a movie I worked on. They made a movie that I call a graded it for them. You know, small movie was out of town out of LA. And it was like a sci fi thriller. And they know stars at all. The guy went out try to sell it couldn't get it sold. Because he had no stars in it. And the genre hadn't built up an audience or anything. We could talk about that later. But he was just going down the traditional distribution routes. And then he came back to me six months later he goes Alex, I need you to color Grade A few more scenes for the movie. We've shot a few scenes. I'm like, Okay, great. Who's in those who's in it is like, oh, Michael Madsen and another actor that you might know. I'm like, fantastic. And then he it re edited the movie replaced the shots with the old actor put the new actors in when unsold it because he was a he was a very smart producer and filmmaker, he figured it out. He's like, if I don't do this, if I don't spend a little bit of money to get these actors to come in and do a few scenes for me, I'm not going to be able to sell this movie, which was so eye opening for him. And I knew I mean, I'd already known that, but I've never seen someone actually implement it, which was really wonderful to like, kind of go back and like you know what, I gotta go redo these scenes with a name actor, because that's the only way I'm gonna sell this thing. So anyway, that perspective of being in the film industry. It gives me like that really unique point of view on the whole thing. And when I came up as a filmmaker. years ago, I created a short film called broken which is I think, at this point, the most nauseating, most spoken about short film in the history of short films. I keep bringing it up and people keep bringing it up. So I'm like, Alright, well just let's talk about it. And I was able to back 12 got cheese about 12 years ago now. It was released in 2005. So about six years ago. I 16. Yeah, 11 years ago, sorry, I'm horrible at math. We were able to shoot this movie on dv mini DV. We had over 100 visual effects shots in it we made made it for 1000 bucks at the time, no stars no nothing. shot in West Palm Beach, Florida. And edited on Final Cut color graded on Final Cut on a TV monitor was a very first thing ever color graded in my life. And I color graded it in Final Cut with a bunch of different plugins that I created this insane look for. And we released it into the world. And I got into over almost 200 Film Festivals with it. Roger Ebert reviewed it, which is a whole other story and But the big thing was I was able to sell it. And I actually put together this course map course but I put together this Got to film school behind the scenes of how I was able to do it. Because a lot of filmmakers want to know how I was able to pull so much out of that technology out of the mini DV technology, I was able to take it and make it look very filmic when a lot of people had the exact same camera and just had no idea how to do it. So I put together about three hours worth of stuff and put it on a DVD and sold it and we made roughly over $90,000 with it. You know selling DVDs sold over 5000 DVDs. And just kept going in and just kind of grew into this thing. And today people are still talking about it. And you know and I, I just repackaged it and put it together and another course that I released called filmmaking hacks, how to shoot and

market your film. And I put a bunch of the stuff that was still very relevant, added a whole bunch of new stuff and people still like love it. Like there's still love all the all this kind of behind the scenes stuff that I did on it. So that's a not a quick breakdown of who I am. It's something Sorry, I didn't mean to throw a pitch in there. I just was just kind of just went into it.

Doc Kennedy 11:04
And that's what that's what we do. Right!

Alex Ferrari 11:06
Yeah. hustling. Yeah, we hustle, baby, we hustle.

Doc Kennedy 11:10
So one question that I want to ask you. And this really ties into what you were just talking about? What do you see up and coming? indie filmmakers doing right?

Alex Ferrari 11:21
I'm just doing right in general

Doc Kennedy 11:23
Just doing right now. And we can talk about what they're doing bad all day long. But let's talk about a little bit about what they're doing right, and then we'll turn down.

Alex Ferrari 11:30
Okay, well, I think a few filmmakers that I've seen in study to understand the concept of audience building. Understand that that is the new paradigm that the whole film industry is changing into. If you want to be an independent artist, independent filmmaker, you have to build audiences, you have to be able to build the audience. Have you ever heard of the the, the concept of the 1000 1000 true fan theory? Yeah. So for the audience, for the audience, for your audience that might not know the 1000 true fans is was written by an art, it was an article written by the co founder of Wired Magazine, and basically stating that all you need is 1000 true fans to support you as a artist, filmmaker, whatever. And the concept is, if you got 1000 people to pay you $100 a year $100,000. That's not a bad deal. Most people can make a decent living at $100,000, doing what you love to do. And if you start thinking about us, like, well, that's about $10 a month, you know, 10 to $12, whatever the math is, and it started making sense. So if a filmmaker can build an audience, that audience can support that filmmaker through multiple films. So one of the there was a movie that just came out, called Kung Fury. Have you heard of that one?

Doc Kennedy 12:49
Yeah, I've seen it. It's insane.

Alex Ferrari 12:52
And love that and hilarious. It's so funny. But that was such a wonderful example of what a filmmaker did, right? This guy who is outside of the business, and when I say outside, I mean, outside. He's in like, Sweden, or something along those lines. He's not in the US at all. He had a love for 80s movies and decided to make a short film about, you know, I think it's a kung fu cop, who's in the 80s, who goes back in time to kill Hitler.

Doc Kennedy 13:25
And which seems like a logical concept,

Alex Ferrari 13:28
obviously, obviously. And then, and there's Thor involved too, and they go back into time, there's some dinosaurs. It's just brilliant. It's just a brilliant concept. So but he went on to Kickstarter, and I think he raised 130 $30,000 for a short film. But he was able to crowd crowdsource and crowdfund. So as he was building his budget up his money, his war chest, he was building up an audience. And then that audience started talking and they started evangelizing for him. And all of a sudden now he's made obscene amounts of money with this short film, puts puts by poor little broken to shame. He, he's made obscene amounts of money, he's been able to merchandise like crazy. People are cosplaying to him at Comic conventions, you know, it's this kind of underground thing. But it doesn't have to be Star Wars. You know, it could be underground, it could be that that small audience. And that's the thing. I think one of the things that if I can jump to one thing that people do wrong, filmmakers do wrong is they try to appeal to everybody. But the people who really succeed appeal to a very niche audience. So if you try to be broad, you can't afford to get the attention of an entire broad audience. So you can't go I need that I need to I need to go after males from 18 to 45. You don't have the money to do that. You're not a studio you don't have $100 million to blanket. All media for a week for people to to be aware of your movie, but This guy did. He's like, you know, I'm going after guys and girls who love the 80s. And I'm gonna do this really ridiculous little short about the 80s. And people who love the 80s. And love those action movies of the 80s in the sci fi of the 80s. And that's what his niche, that's what we went after. And he was able to not only make a living off of that, now he's building it up into like this little Empire, that, you know, I'm sure he's not making millions with it, he might be who knows God knows how much he's making with it. But the point is that he's, he's a successful filmmaker, he's made a profit. And as a short, it's a short, it's not even a feature. It's a short film. I can't wait for him to do a feature film version of this, like, I'm sure he's working on it as we speak. And I'm sure the second that he puts it out there, to crowdfund again, he'll probably get half a million bucks that make it or 2 million bucks to make it, you know, because there's such an audience, he was able to build that audience up and start mining that audience, giving the audience what they want, and the audience and then is in return paying him or giving him money to continue to do his art. So it's a it's a wonderful exchange, you create a product, the audience wants that product, they exchange money for it, it's called commerce. You know, and but it's a wonderful thing when an artist is able to do that. And I think that was a that's a wonderful example of someone doing it right? And just building that audience is so, so, so important. And then there's so many other steps along the way. But audience building and crowdsourcing as opposed to crowdfunding and those are two different things. It's so integral into the filmmaking a filmmakers process nowadays it has to be

Doc Kennedy 16:34
so I can even though I can't hear people, I can hear them right now saying, I don't have an audience. How do I I can't do that, you know, how do I even start? Well, I'll tell that person now.

Alex Ferrari 16:46
Well, I'll tell you what I just did. I launched indie film hustle six months ago.

Doc Kennedy 16:52
That's all six months ago and you're already the top rank making podcast on iTunes.

Alex Ferrari 16:57
So I'm going to tell you how I did it and this is how and this is what I am now teaching and trying to spread the word on I literally came out of nowhere I was not active on Facebook I was I had a Facebook account of course and you know I've had you know people from the olden days from broken days and stuff don't I was huge on Myspace By the way, but she was on Myspace By the way, so I wasn't I had no Twitter account. I had I mean I had my personal again just just had no other reason but never really used. It. Had no no website, no concept. This was a brand new entity. No one had ever heard of it before. And I leveraged nothing leveraged the only thing I leveraged with a handful of people who knew who I was. And that was a small handful that wasn't a mount you know, I didn't have a huge following by any stretch. And when I made a handful of people I mean these are friends of mine, you know, that's it. So I literally launched indie film hustle and started to build an audience now that I'm sure you're gonna ask Alex How did you do this? I created I created a brand new Facebook page had zero followers I created a brand new Twitter page zero followers created a brand new Instagram page zero followers and created a YouTube page zero followers, brand new starting from scratch. And then I just started pumping content out pumping really good content out because for me, I knew who my audience was my audience was independent filmmakers. I know independent filmmakers, I love independent filmmakers. They are they are the the audience that I know inside and out because I am an independent filmmaker. So I understand what I need and what I want. And I would I would pay money for what I would find valuable. And I did not see that in the marketplace. Similar to come theory, there are no other you know, cop Miami cops who go back in time to kill Hitler movies. So they're very rare. And if they're if they're already at all, other than his so I saw I saw a hole in the marketplace. Now don't get me wrong, there are other people doing what I do. Like, you know, like, we talked about Jason with indie film Academy, Scott over at film trooper and a bunch of other guys who do what, you know what I do. But the difference was I came in from a different perspective altogether. And everyone has a different flavor of what they do and how they, how they present their information. I came from a position or a place of 20 years experience a lot of post experience and also filmmaking experience. So I can just kind of go out there and go, you know what, guys, I'm going to tell you guys the truth of stuff that I know for a fact that these are these are truths that I I'm not seeing anyone tell you. So I started creating content based around that. And then I fell into this podcasting format, which was very strategic. I was going to create a podcast but I had no idea how powerful podcasting really was until I jumped into it. And then I saw that there was a very big hole in the marketplace. Casting. So I was like, You know what, let me go, I want to, I want to give everybody as much great information as I possibly can, things that nobody else talks about. Things like how to know how to know when to work for free, post production workflow, understand it or die. You know why you shouldn't maybe shoot 4k if you're not ready to shoot 4k, because you might not understand the workflow. And you might die in post production, which is something I've seen many times now. So these are things that I was just kind of going down the road don't hire a dp just because they have a red camera, you know, mistakes like that, that people aren't talking about. So like, let's just put some shine a light on it. So because I was able to do that, I started building a following. Because I created great content, I created content that was relevant to my niche. So I understood my niche, I understood my audience. And then I started to give the audience what they wanted. For free, I'm giving it to them for free, I just want to build an audience. So as I keep giving them free stuff, free stuff, free stuff. And by the way, it's insane the amount of stuff I put out. And by the way, I do this all myself, I have nobody else with me.

Doc Kennedy 21:06
All the graphics or everything, everything.

Alex Ferrari 21:08
I designed the website from scratch myself, I'm the tech guy I have no, I haven't I have nothing I've nobody else. This is everything you see that has any film hustles name on it, it's either by me, or occasionally I'll get a guest post from somebody. And even then I'm still creating the graphics and launching it and marketing and and pushing it and all that kind of stuff. So I put out a tremendous amount of content, because I'm insane. And I have a vigor of what's the word? ambition, it's it's almost insane the amount of ambition I have. And when I turn it on, it's very difficult to turn off the spout. So I just wanted to keep going, keep going, keep going. So when I hit the scene, like Jason and Scott, and these guys, they contacted like, Who are you? Like, like, what's, where did you come from, and I came in like a freight train a couple of I think a few people call me a freight train, because it was just like a non stop entity that just kept coming. And, and, and we became friends, and we kind of start talking to each other and helping each other out. Because I believe that if you help other people around you, the tide lifts all boats. And that's, that's, you know, as opposed to like, oh, you're my competition, you're my competition. I noticed that from other niches that I was studying in, you know, other internet marketers and things like that they don't cannibalize each other, they kind of help each other. So I think a lot of times filmmakers themselves like, oh, I've got a movie, you got a movie, you're gonna take my money away from my crowdfunding? Like No, dude. Like, I guarantee you, the guy who's gonna give 50 bucks to come, fury is not going to give 50 bucks to the period piece. You know, it's just like, it's just the it's there's no competition. And I learned that also from George Lucas, who said at the early days, that him Scorsese, Spielberg, malleus, the Palma Coppola, they were all at the gates, but they wouldn't be let in the studios wouldn't let them in. So instead of trying to beat each other up to try to get in like a crab, you know, pulling each other down, they all helped each other. They said, well look like out in the olden days, you know, the cavemen, they said, Well, you know, if we're by ourselves, we have a much less chance of survival. But if we group together, we have a much bigger chance of survival, and helping each other and then we can grow and become a stronger entity. And so itself, and that's what they did. And there's always competition, of course, but, but they help each other. So I've gone on, I've gone off on a tangent, Oh, okay. Sorry about that. But anyway, so that's how I've been able to build this up, I build up my Twitter account now just hit 14,000 followers. I'm over 12,000 followers on Instagram, my, my Facebook's around 1500. Because Facebook's really tough, unless you want to pay, and I refuse to pay. So it's a lot harder to get followers there. But even if you got a million followers, Facebook doesn't let you talk to them, because that's the way Facebook is. So um, I started going after other other areas. And then I got almost 1000 followers on and I think almost like 50 50,040 50,000 views on YouTube. So I did this all within six months. And then you know, my traffic for my site has grown and grown and more people are seeing what we're doing. But that was done literally by one guy who did a lot of research. I did a lot of work. I studied this whole thing, probably about a year before I launched. So that might just be age, because I'm not a young buck anymore. So I sit there and I kind of analyze things. And when I when I launched I launched hard I didn't launch like quietly like let's just build it up like no, I launched very hard and that's how filmmakers need to be you have to be aggressive, but you have to understand what you're doing. You have to understand this study the techniques and learn the craft. What you're trying to do so that's, in a nutshell how to build an audience, I'm actually going to probably going to create a course one day about how to how to do this, like, you know, I'm going to hopefully be doing that with a movie. You know, like actually take everybody through a process of actually doing that with an actual film itself. But, but I have been able to build up a pretty decent sized audience very, very quickly.

Just have to just got to study it, man got to study who you're going after, if you're a hoarder, if you're a horror guy making a horror movie, well, hell, man, there's a lot of horror fans out there. So go find them, build that audience up, do something cool, you know, and give them good content. People want to be entertained, it's kind of like Gladiator. Are you not entertained? Like they, they want to be entertained, they want good quality content, whatever that niche is, if you're a vegan chef, you know, and you're sell recipes. You know, give recipes away, you get people, there's, it's easy, it's not as hard as you think to build an audience. It's just giving them great free content, at first, to build that audience to build that trust to build that rapport. And then slowly but surely, you start adding more value to them with other content that you charge for would that be a movie t shirts, events, meet and greets, you know, you know, audio courses, mainly the books, you know, it's a million ways to then eventually monetize an audience. But first, you just want to, and you have to continue to give them free, great content and just build relationship. Solid is

Doc Kennedy 26:33
exactly did we just had to Ashley Scott Myers on selling your screenplay calm, okay. You know, he's got 10,000 people on his email list. That's awesome. And it's something that has taken a little bit of time, not everybody's gonna run out of the gate like you have Alex.

Alex Ferrari 26:49
Well, yeah, well, I'm not I'm look up like, like, yeah, okay, go ahead. Sorry.

Doc Kennedy 26:55
Same time. Well, now he's got this short film, or a feature film that he's producing. And he's using the email list that he's created to help fund some of that. And it's not just trying to take money from people, it's not building this list to be able to use them in that way. He's just given so much free content, like you have that people are absolutely willing to help him out with the project that's important to him.

Alex Ferrari 27:26
Absolutely. Absolutely. It's, it's, you're leveraging your audience. And but that's in a really good way. You know, I see this from you know, do you know, you know what, Tim Ferriss? Yep. Alright, so Tim Ferriss, he, he did a TV show that was supposed to air I don't know, CNN or something like that, for whatever reason, they shot 12 episodes of the TV show, which is him him doing, you know, crazy stuff, and kind of, you know, learning how to be a world class drummer in seven days and stuff like that. And watching the process of it, and that was a great show, but it was it never, I think aired twice, two episodes, and then they pulled it and then something happened and they just lost the rights to it. So he went after the rights to get it back because he's like, Look, I know I can monetize this. I know I can I know I can get this to my audience. I need the art my audience to see this. And he has a very big audience based on his book, The Four Hour Workweek, which every filmmaker on the planet should read it's amazing amazing book. And so he got that got it and he started leveraging his audience he's like Hey guys, I got a new show. Within a week he was the number one TV show on iTunes Wow. Because he but he has a huge audience that he's given you know, he's given so much free content out to and he's built this this wonderful fan base that people just and he started off with nothing as well like they don't understand the all the audio everybody in the audience has to understand. Everyone starts off with nothing. Everyone no one's born with an audience. Unless you're the Royals then even then you don't really care about the audience at that point because you know, you're just doing your thing. But generally no one starts off with with a big audience no one it you have to build it, you know, Kevin Smith has been a genius at giving his audience what they want. And he has built an industry around himself and around his not only his films, but about him around himself, which he can monetize much easier as a celebrity than he can as a director. And some people might, you know, might judge them for that and other people might not, but gotta give it to the man he knows what he's doing. And he leverages it leverages his audience constantly and his audience loves him for it I mean Same thing for I mean, if you want to go even deeper a trauma you know, trauma films is I don't, okay, so if you if you type in trauma tr, Mo trauma, trauma, trauma trauma films Lloyd Kaufman created and Lauren's gonna be on the show in a few weeks prior in a month or so I interviewed him he's been around since the 30s he made a movie that 30s he's been around for about 30 years, he made a movie called Toxic Avenger. Be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. Which is a classic and the 80s classic movie and he built an entire company around this kind of schlocky filmmaking which is so odd because he's such a classical Lee trained very intelligent man I found I found out but he makes you know Toxic Avenger to Romeo and Juliet you know so many different crazy movies but he built an audience around that he took he took Toxic Avenger and people started following about and then they they just started pumping out movies like this and he's built an entire business over the years about this process about how he was able to to to to mine his audience and give his audience what he wants that what they want and that's something a filmmaker needs to figure out they need to figure out who they are as a filmmaker as a person as a business person and then find their niche and then attack but in a good way you know just go after who wants to see your stuff? And it might it might be it might be the chicken meat them the chicken before the egg kind of scenario like I don't know what my audience is, but I like making these kind of movies I'm like well if you like making those kind of movies go find the audience to make those kind of movies or if you want to go after an audience find the audience first then make content for that audience you know, but don't try to be everything to everybody because you'll never you'll never make it it's just it's impossible it's impossible to do something like that and I hate to use the word impossible but if the studios with hundreds of millions of dollars can't do it you can't do that nobody can no one can be everything to everybody ever it's not possible this

Doc Kennedy 32:09
totally makes sense you know when you go to see a turn to you know film you know what you're getting,

Alex Ferrari 32:13
he's filled he's built an audience up he's built it up and he's built it up in a different way and then every every like Robert Rodriguez has an audience obviously. So does Tarantino so it's Kevin Smith but you know Tarantino Kevin Smith are two very different audiences but but they kind of overlap a little bit there you know, because I you know, I like Tarantino films, I like Kevin Smith films, so they kind of overlap a little bit, but the true fans of Kevin Smith and the true fans of Tarantino probably wouldn't hang out often. But Tarantino has built his audience around his movies. Same thing as Spielberg Spielberg has an audience that he's a brand so as Martin Scorsese, you go to see Mr. Scorsese movie you know what you're going to get generally you go to see a Spielberg movie, you know what you're going to get generally and it's only when, when filmmakers vary from what they're known for, is where that's when things become awry. So like when Scorsese did Last Temptation of Christ and Condon you know, which are not his standard stuff, people were like what's going on but then you know, after you do so many movies you could do whatever the hell you want. You know, Ridley Scott does a million different genres and stuff. So then that becomes your brand you just jump from genre to genre? So you don't go see a Western because they're in Tina, did you go see it? Because Tara Tina made it Yeah, and that's a brand and then you know, it's I can go on for hours about this.

Doc Kennedy 33:33
Well, so one of the podcast episodes It was early on that really turned me on to what you got going on here. Alex? It was talking about you have to move to LA to be successful. Yeah, share with us a little bit about that. And is it mandatory that you move to LA?

Alex Ferrari 33:50
No, what I said in the podcast I'll repeat it here but it basically I moved to LA because you know, I was in Florida, which is a smaller market obviously it's a it's a large filmmaking market, probably one of the top five in the country. But it was a small you know, is this about much smaller than la but I also stretches but I moved out here because I, you know, I just worried about LA and needed to be where the action was. So that was the difference for me. I came out here with nothing. I knew three people, just like launching into film bustle, I had a I had a Final Cut system and a color grading system, which were both the same. And I put it up in a second bedroom, and I just started going after work. And I started getting work. But I mind you I also had, you know, 10 years of demo reels and you know, work underneath me that I did in Florida, so I wasn't just a fresh kid. But But I was a nobody here and I just started doing good work and good work and good work. The thing about moving to LA or to a big market is that your skill level will grow faster, because you are around people who are doing this 24 hours a day, seven days a week. So you You can't walk into a Starbucks in LA, anytime of the day without somebody working on a screenplay. Like it's just prerequisite. I feel that if there isn't somebody I think Starbucks hire somebody to sit there and write a script. Because everywhere I go every time I go there's always a guy writing a screenplay or talking about a screenplay or talking about a story. It's just like it's it's so embedded in the culture here of La that you are around 24 seven so you're challenged when you work with certain people because they've just been doing it so long so you'll learn faster you start get you know, it's kind of like when you're a carpenter, you know, if you're, you know, you're at home whittling away on some wood and all of a sudden they throw you into like, I need you to carve, you know, a six foot statue, you're gonna learn a lot of things you might have not learned because you were just whittling away on a little piece of wood as opposed to go into this huge you know, Michelangelo's ask event you know a project Same thing happens here in LA now to say that LA is the only place now it might have been before but not anymore. New York is still a very big market. Atlanta has become a huge huge filmmaking market because of their wonderful incentives you know before was Louisiana for a little while before the incentives dried up Florida had incentives to but Florida has a really big production community as well. Austin has a pretty big you know, has a lot of pretty big community as well. But there's a handful there's not a lot of like big communities but la if I was if it if it were me today la New York, Atlanta, and possibly Miami because Miami is smaller now than Atlanta is or Georgia in general like Savannah and those places but I think those are the three right now and I and I'm sure a whole bunch of people around the country are well how about Kansas I'm like well, I'm not here at all a lot of stuff coming out of Kansas guy sorry Austin's also a very big filmmaking community as well but from what I understand and from people who go there it's nothing compared to LA is nothing compared to what Atlanta is going the amount of partners 26 feature films going on right now in Atlanta, like right now. So and a lot of them are big studio movies. So you know, it's those I do think that you should if you are a filmmaker go to wherever you are in your mum if you're in India you know go to where Bollywood is, you know if you're in England go where you know pine studios is I don't know where that the Mecca is London I guess you know, go wherever the Mecca is for filmmaking and set up shop and just start learning because you'll learn much faster I learned in a couple years here things that took me five six years to learn back home in Florida, it's just because you're just exposed to so many more experienced people and projects that you just wouldn't have access to, you just would not have access to so you're just kind of honing your skill at a much faster rate as opposed to just watching YouTube videos or taking courses online. Those are wonderful and they're invaluable but getting on a set you know walking on the set of 24 which I had the opportunity to in kind of watch what they're doing and you know work with some of those guys you just like Jesus man like you know you don't get this backhoe you know, where there might be one guy in Florida that has you know, he's the Big Kahuna as far as stents are concerned. You've got 400 guys out here who have you know, credits list down to your arm and you know, to work with someone like that is insane, which I had the opportunity to work with on some of my projects. So yeah, I say I say do it. But do it when you're ready as well because don't come out to LA or or New York or a big city. You know when you're 20 and just kind of wish and pray that something's going to happen.

Doc Kennedy 38:53
So I agree with that. 100% Yeah, because

Alex Ferrari 38:58
if it will, it will it will destroy you. Like I came out to LA I didn't I don't know if I said this in the show or not. But I came out to LA in 2001 trying to peddle my my little editing reel route. And the town eight min. Remember you're talking about my area in my the town ate me alive. I was so not ready. I had no plan. And I was completely eaten alive. And it took me another 676 years seven years to come back. But by then I'd already had a lot more stuff under my belt that was a lot older. And I came with a plan. A crazy plan. I don't know if you remember the plan it was it was crazy. But because I literally my you know my wife who was not my wife at the time, but we both came out here new three people got up got a room and in Toluca Lake or apartment in Toluca Lake, which is kind of like the right by Burbank by Disney and got a got an apartment, put up an editing system and I brought a whole bunch Have DVDs that I bought from going out of business Hollywood videos, and sell them on Amazon as a as a revenue stream, I got things going. So you know, and that's a whole other story. But that's the hustle. And that's, that's why I call it indie film hustle, because that was like, you know what we all hustle all the time. And why not? Why not call it

Doc Kennedy 40:20
Whatever it takes,

Alex Ferrari 40:21
You got to man, I mean, all these guys who've made it, you know, a lot of people see that a lot of people only see the overnight success, they only see the award, they only see that one box office hit, they don't see the 20 years about behind them, or the 10 years behind them, or the 1000s of hours that they've put into their craft, or into, you know, networking properly, or understanding what they're doing. To get to that point, it takes so much time to do to get to those certain levels. I think that's one thing that filmmakers, young filmmakers in general don't understand is they think that, Oh, I'm gonna put some stuff up on YouTube, and I'm gonna be huge. Like, it doesn't work that way it does doesn't, you have to understand your craft, you have to understand what you're doing, and really learn your stuff before you can make it big. And even then, there's guys who have 20 years of experience underneath you, and under underneath them, and they're still struggling to get noticed to get this that that, you know, so it takes a lot of work those 10,000 our theory is probably light, it takes many more hours than that to, to hone your skills in whichever way whatever. Whatever you want to learn, or whatever you want to do in life.

Doc Kennedy 41:42
And that and there's the value in surrounding yourself with people that have been there done that. That's a totally nother episode. But yeah. So as we kind of wrap things up here, Alex, you want to share with us just a little bit about what you're excited about this coming year?

Alex Ferrari 42:00
Well, this year, indie film hustle is, you know, I've that for I've worked so hard to get this, this kind of audience, I'm building this audience and building what what I'm doing with indie film, hustle. So I'm really excited that I'm going to be bringing a bunch of new stuff to the audience, because the audience has actually reached out to me, this eventually will happen once you start building your own audiences is that, like, Alex, we want? We want you to help us in this way, or help us in that way. And you know, I even get I even get emails like, how can I support you? Like, what can I buy something, I want to give you money, because they're so grateful for all the free knowledge in the free, you know, content, and I'm giving them the value that I'm giving them that they actually asked like, Where can I you know, what do I can I donate to you? Can I buy something? And then a lot of other people are like, Can you put a course together on really breaking this down? Or can you do a course about this? So that's what I started to do. I started creating courses for my audience, because in certain areas that I think people in our in our, in our business don't have, you know, if my basically my take on certain things, so I created filmmaking hacks how to shoot and market your film, because I think that's invaluable, it shows you goes through the whole process of how I did three films, I'm going to add my 44th film, and soon, it's a living course I'm always changing and adding stuff to it. And it's about nine hours long at this point. And it goes through how I made a bunch of my movies, commentary tracks from a bunch of different departments from all the movies as well. You get to see the movies as well in there and analyze what I did what I did what I did, right what I did wrong. I'm not saying that they're the greatest movies of all time, I'm not saying they're Oscar winners, they're just my movies. They're just what I did at that time, I look at some of the stuff I did in the past. I'm like, Oh, I'm sure but but with all artists, we all do that. It's just it's just the way we all are. So I created that course I had created another core course called Twitter hacks how to get 10,000 true fans in 10 weeks because it took me about 10 weeks to get 10,000 followers on Twitter because Twitter came along a little bit later and now I show you how to not only to get those followers but how to leverage those followers how to engage with those followers, how to bring them into your ecosystem, how to get them into your website and you know, start building the community around them because that's just another funnel of finding people you know, YouTube is another one you know, Facebook's another one, the podcast is another one, and so on. There's multiple different funnels that you can find that people can kind of come into your little ecosystem. So I created that course it's doing very, very well. I sell it now for I think we're selling for 97 bucks, but if you go to our site, you get it you can just click on it, get a coupon for 25 bucks. So it's invaluable, that's normal three, four hours long and it really breaks down. How how quickly. If you take that course you'll have $200 Within the first day or two, I have one guy who took it. And he doubled from 1500 to 3000, in less than a week, just by using basic stuff. And these are real people like these are real. Those are the thing. They're real people. They're people who are interested in what you're doing. They're not fake. I'm not telling you go by 20,000 followers. Now, these are real, real people that that you've taken time to build up and it takes time to build them up, but and then they become your army. That's the thing. That's the thing about building an audience is they become your army, they go out and evangelize for you. They retweet your stuff, they'll repost your stuff, they'll comment on it, and they'll kind of share it with their communities, and so on and so on in it. And I've seen stuff happen like I did, and I'm going off on a tangent, I apologize. But I saw the most controversial post I've done. Which do you do? Do you know which one it is? I can't pick. Yes. It's the 4k. Why filmmakers should not Yeah, oh, god. I've gotten a lot of heat from that. But I also got a lot of love for that. And basically, it's like why independent filmmakers should not shoot 4k is that it was a podcast and a post. And that one alone has been downloaded 35,000 times. Wow. As a podcast, that's insane for a for a podcast and our niche. Now mind you, not all of my podcasts get 35,000 downloads, I wish. But it's insane. That that's how popular became and I saw it virally just explode. Like, literally just went to digital. And I literally was watching it in real time. It was fascinating. I posted somewhere, then it would get shared five more times and then boom and boom, but and within the first day was just like an onslaught. It was like, my, my website almost crashed because I was getting so much traffic off of one really popular vote. And I wasn't doing it to like kind of clickbait or anything like that it was a really valid argument trying to help people. And the majority of people I want to say probably about 80 to 90% of people really understood what I was trying to say, whether they agreed with it or not. They understood and they validated. And then there's of course the people who were like you're an idiot, and I'm like, you're gonna get that in the world. It's I don't care, that's fine. But that's the that's the power of kind of like an audience. And when

Doc Kennedy 47:21
I know what I like about those people, they're saying, You're an idiot, they're still talking about you.

Alex Ferrari 47:24
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I learned that from Howard Stern. Because every you know how many people hate him, but they kept listening to them, just to see, just to see what you would say.

Doc Kennedy 47:36
So they'll tweet it out and say, This is stupid, you know? And then Oh, hey, there's my link.

Alex Ferrari 47:42
Exactly. So um, so I created Twitter hacks. And then I just created a new course, which will be out, I don't know where this is going to air. But we're hopefully going to have it out next week, which would be first week in February, called Film Festival hacks, which is a co co creation with Chris Holland from Film Festival secrets.com. Chris has been around in the film and Film Festival business for over a decade. And he's been behind the scenes. And then I have all this experience. And on the other side of the badge, as we like to call it with being in I've been, I've been my films are playing in probably almost 600 Film Festivals worldwide. So I have a very unique perspective on film festivals that way. So the combination of both of us in the same course talking about both perspectives of things is so powerful. And my God, I wish I would have had this course. Because I would have saved me probably the first 1000 books that I spent on broken sending up, you know, submission fees, and how how that whole magic happens and that kind of like dark art of like, Am I going to get in? I mean, I'm going to get in, is this the right festival? Are they just going to take my money? Are they even watching it all this kind of stuff. So we put this whole course together, it's about almost four hours long or a little over four hours. It's insane. Like it really, really is insane. And that one people can go to film festival hacks COMM And they'll get a thing for the first two weeks. They'll get it for 25 bucks after that, and then it's gonna go up. And then I have one other course that I have you ever heard of Michael Haig? Or Chris I have Michael Haig and Chris Walker.

Doc Kennedy 49:13
No, I can't do that. Have

Alex Ferrari 49:15
You heard of the writers journey? Yeah, that's the author.

Doc Kennedy 49:18
That's where I've heard.

Alex Ferrari 49:20
Yeah, the writers journey. Chris bolgar. And Michael hay who wrote how to write the exact title is writing screenplays that sell which has been around for about 20 years or so. And, and Michael and I kind of got together to do another course called storytelling and script screenplay and story secrets. The heroes two journeys, which is basically these two guys lecturing about their the hero's journey, which is the Joseph Campbell's story, and Michael heggs six stage process of story and combining them the two. It's an insane course it's about four hours, four hours long and they sit there for an hour. And break down Erin Brockovich, like, beat by beat. So we kind of joined forces to release this course. And that's going to hopefully be out as well next week on the on the first week of February. So we're going to be doing for indie film, hustle is going to be a one indie film hustle to be kind of a resource for filmmakers on affordable resource for filmmakers to get really insane training that they might not get anywhere else, and have access to training that they might not have anywhere else. And especially for people from around the world, not just the US. But you know, a lot of people who listen to me are in India, or in South Africa, or in Australia, or, you know, in England or outside of the US. And a lot of times, they just don't have access to the stuff we have here. So I want this to kind of be a worldwide access, I'm an indie film, hustle, be kind of a hub for not only great free content, but also really detailed education that they can really sink their teeth into and help. I just want to help at the end of the day, I want filmmakers to succeed. Man, I'm tired of seeing so many filmmakers get their asses handed to them by the business, which is the exact same, that's the first thing you read when you go to indie film, hustle calm, is that like I was just tired of seeing so many filmmakers get destroyed by the business that I'm going to throw my hat in the ring and see if I can help them out a little bit. And then one other thing, I have a big announcement that I'll be announcing in the next few weeks or so, a very big project that I'm going to be doing that will further educate the indie film hustle tribe, as I like to call them and do something that I have never seen done before. So I haven't I haven't announced it yet. And I've been teasing people for the last few weeks about it. And I've been getting emails, what the hell are you doing what you have to know, am I calm down, though, it'll come. So uh, you know, at the end of the day, I'm going to, it's going to be something that's going to really help a lot of filmmakers, as well as do something I think that no one has done in the way that we're going to do it. So that's, that's enough for 2016

Doc Kennedy 52:08
Thanks for leaving us hanging on the edge. And we're gonna play in common, but you can't know

Alex Ferrari 52:13
Exactly, exactly. And we're going to be doing, I have probably another 10 or 15 courses that we're planning to release this year, post production workflow and working on Instagram, one to help again, marketing and trying to get the word out a bunch of different kinds of courses that we're going to be releasing, and I'm in negotiations with a few other people to try to bring other content in as far as really high end lighting courses. And the camera course isn't breaking down a red camera and all this kind of stuff that I'm I'm currently in negotiations with because we're really trying to create a hub we're trying to, we're trying to change the world. But our little niche again, not trying to change everything, but just trying to change our world, which is independent filmmakers and really help them out from a truly humble place to kind of just let guys we just want to help you out here. I wish

Doc Kennedy 53:06
That you're you make a guy like me feel like it's doable.

Alex Ferrari 53:10
Yeah. And that's what I that's what I hope we could do. man that's, that's if I've done that. And I've gotten so much fan mail from people who said exactly that, like man, you've, you've changed my perspective on on this I after listening to your podcast, and reading what you do, I feel that I could do this, like I there's hope for me. And I really never knew that. Like I never felt that I was doing something that profound for people, I just thought I'm gonna click, I'm gonna give you guys some information. But when when you start helping people at that level, those are the kind of fans you want. Those are the kinds of people that you want in your tribe, because you're helping them at a big level and you want to continue to help them many years to come and continue to build that relationship to the point where you know, it they they become their own big thing because like look, you know, like like, have you ever heard of Pat Flynn? Yeah, well, Tim Ferriss wrote a book called The Four Hour Workweek. That book helped launch Pat Flynn helped launch john Lee Dumas from Entrepreneur on Fire launch up probably about another 10 or 15 juggernauts that are in that space. All because Tim Ferriss wrote that one book. And then so he's kind of the godfather of all these guys. And I hope I can do that for other filmmakers. I hope not that I'm as big as Tim Ferriss by any stretch but I hope in my small way that I can inspire other filmmakers to go off and just tear down the walls of the you know, the business and just go look, we did it a different way. We don't need the studio. Don't get me wrong. If a studio calls me tomorrow, like would you like to do spider man too? I'm like, Yes. Absolutely. Would you like to do a Star Wars movie? Absolutely. Let's go it out. I would, it would be wonderful. But when you're starting out, you don't have to lean on them. You can do it by yourself, you can go out there, make your movie, The technology is so cheap, it's so affordable, it's so powerful. If you take the time to learn the technology, if you take the time to learn your craft, there's no excuse. Now you can literally make a movie on your iPhone, like tangerine did, and release it. But let's say, you know, tangerine is a very unique example. But you can get a camera very inexpensively borrow a camera, you know, rent one, whatever, go make your movie, get a bunch of actors, write a great script, make a movie and sell it to an audience that's already waiting for what you want. And you can self distribute when you have to go through distribution anymore. And by the way, I actually had my film, which was called lipstick and bullets with a combo, it was a compilation of all my short films, plus all this kind of cool content that I was talking about. And I got it all back. I'm like, you know what, guys, you haven't done anything for me. I'm tired of what you're doing. Um, our deal is over, and I'm out. And I started selling it myself to my audience. And guess what I'm making money with it, you know, because I'm able to get it to the audience that wants it, they had no idea how to get it to the audience that wanted that content. And that's a problem with distributors, they do very much shotgun approach to things as opposed to niche approach. And that's the future niche, niche, niche niche, the riches are in the niches, and the riches are in the niches. And it's called show business for a reason. Because business is twice as long as the word ship to and I can't take credit for either of them, but we'll use them here because other people told me those those quotes, but I love them. They're great. The riches are in the niches, and the word business is twice as long as the word show. And there's a very specific reason for that. But you guys, whoever's listening to this, you have the ability to do it all You just have to educate yourself go to resources, like Doc's resource here, this wonderful podcast, go to our podcast, go to go to our sites reach go out that the informations there, you just have to do the work. And that's what a lot of people are afraid of doing is the work. But if you do the work, you can make it there's no excuse anymore. When I was coming up, you know how much it cost me to do my first demo reel 50 grand shot on 35 millimeter to do three commercials. You know what I mean? And I was in debt for I was in debt for years. Nowadays, I would have done 20 commercials for that, you know, shot on a red and I would have an insane reel. And I could have gone out and hustled that reel, but nowadays is a lot different than back then 35 was the only way to do it. There was no internet there. There was no anything like it was it was a different world. I know I sound like an old fart when you talk like that. But it's very it was just very, very different different place in the in the world at the time. So no excuse guys, you can do it. There's no question about it. I believe in you.

Doc Kennedy 57:56
That's awesome. Love that. Well, Alex, this has just been phenomenal. Now I could go on another two, three hours. I'm sure you could. No problem. We'll just have links in the show notes. And at Kennedy calm that link up with you. There's gonna be a mountain of show notes here. Link to everything that you were talking about as much as I can get in there.

Alex Ferrari 58:16
I appreciate that, my friend. I appreciate that.

Doc Kennedy 58:17
Yeah, if there's anything we can be doing for you. Besides the support, we're there for you.

Alex Ferrari 58:23
Spread the word, man. It's like a it's like a virus. We gotta we gotta you gotta be that outbreak, monkey, man. We got to get it out there. Ya gotta get the I'm sorry.

Doc Kennedy 58:32
We're that cowbell.

Alex Ferrari 58:35
Yeah, I need more cowbell. I definitely need more cowbell without question. Just get the you know and if it And last thing I want to say guys, if you don't get the information from me just go find or from doc or anybody go find it somewhere the information is there. It's so much good information out there. To go get and educate yourselves and learn there's books or videos. I mean, there's just a plethora of information out there that you can go and find what you need to make your movie and make not only make your movie, but plan out a strategy to maintain yourself as an artist and not just kind of put all your energy in trying to make a movie because that's not enough anymore. You have to build an audience you have to build a strategy that you can maintain yourself as an artist for many years to come. Because if you don't you just going to be one of the many filmmakers I see on the Boulevard of Broken Dreams here in Hollywood. And that that Boulevard very real by the way. I see I literally see them. It's a very, very rough place. So just plan things out and go after your dreams and don't let anyone stop you man. You have no excuse anymore. You guys, I hope you liked that one. It was a lot of fun cuz it was a lot of fun to talk to doc and you know, he's just starting out on his podcast. He launched it a little bit ago and he's just kind of rubbed that back up now. But he has a lot of great resources as well on his website. If you want to go to his website, head over to Doc kennedy.com that's DLC kennedy.com. And he's got a lot of good articles as well as his podcast, and he has a lot of good guests as well. So speaking of community, and speaking of getting out there and learning as much as you can about the film biz, I've created an online community for us to all kind of get together and interact with over on Facebook is a private group is the indie film hustle, private Facebook group. And you can, you can sign up for free at indie film, hustle, calm forward slash Facebook. And there you'll get first crack at any new materials and content that we're putting out. Because we posted there first before anywhere else, as well as interact with other people show your work off, ask questions, to direct line not only to me, but also to the rest of the community. So indiefilmhustle.com/Facebook. And as always, please head over to filmmaking podcast calm and leave us an honest review of the show. It really helps us out a lot. And thank you to all you guys who have done it, you guys have been giving us great reviews and great comments on the show. And I really, really appreciate it. It does help us out getting the word out on indie film, hustle and what we're trying to do, and help the film the indie film community out. So filmmakingpodcast.com. So guys, I also get a lot of emails from you guys still asking me what I can do to support you. And what we're doing here at indie film, hustle. And the best way you could do that is by visiting our sponsors, partaking in whatever they're offering. And then a lot of the courses and things like that that we create, as well. We're going to be coming up with a brand new film school and online film school that we're going to be launching hopefully in the next couple of weeks. And that's going to have all new courses, all new everything we're going to be giving a lot of free previews away for those as well on our YouTube channel, and just going to be a lot of great stuff. So with that said, Our second sponsor of the day is one of my favorite courses that we offer is the USC film schools only online course directing the actor by the legendary Nina Folch. This course is awesome. I took it I learned so so much about getting into the mind of an actor and understanding their language and Nina breaks it down so well not only for directors, but also for actors and understanding the craft of acting better so you can head over to indie film hustle.com forward slash USC and it's really cheap, something like 25 bucks. Online Course really, really well worth it guys, so definitely check that out. And as always keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 069: How to Make $500,000 Selling a No Budget DSLR Indie Film with Michael Polish

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I’m always looking for indie filmmaking models to study. I like to analyze how other filmmakers make successful indie films while doing through a new DIY method, self-distributing their film or achieving critical and fan respect for their work.

Well, I found a film that checks all the boxes, For Lovers Only create by the Polish Brothers, Michael and Mark Polish (more on that film later). These filmmakers have been making films, on their terms, for over a decade now.

Since premiering at Sundance with their debut feature, 1999’s Twin Falls Idaho, the brothers have remained steadfast in their commitment to creating personal, character-driven films.

Michael Polish, mark polish, the polish brothers, for lovers only Stana vatic, Canon 5D Mark II, no budget filmmaking

Michael Polish has created a filmography of critically-acclaimed features, including the karaoke-themed Jackpot (2001), the self-financed period piece Northfork (2003) and the sci-fi drama The Astronaut Farmer (2006). Yet the Polish brothers have always maintained a collaborative—as opposed to competitive—spirit when it comes to finding success in Hollywood

In 2005, he and his brother published the must-read book The Declaration of Independent Filmmaking: An Insider’s Guide to Making Movies Outside of Hollywood, a how-to guide for first-time filmmakers.

How to Make $500,000 on a DSLR Feature Film

How does one make money shooting a feature film on a DSLR? The film in question came from a screenplay that Mark Polish wrote more than a decade ago called For Lovers Only (Available on IFHTV)., about an American photographer who runs into an old flame while on assignment in Paris. The film follows the rekindled lovers around Paris, France in a series of quiet vignettes that gradually reveal more about the complications in the couples’ lives.

Related: DSLR Video Tips: How to Make Your DSLR Film or Video Look More Cinematic

Inspired by the guerilla-style of the French New Wave filmmakers of yesteryear, Mark and Michael Polish came up with a simple plan: they’d fly over to France with only a Canon 5D Mark II camera (which they already owned) and one actress (Castle star Stana Katic) in tow and just go out and shoot feature film. Oh did I mention it was in black and white?

 

With no budget to speak of, they went out into Paris and captured its stunning beauty for free. Additionally, shooting solely on a DSLR had quite a few advantages. Not only was the camera extremely portable, and allowed for filming in tight spaces (such as the small alcoves in French churches), it gave the film the level of intimacy it needed.

No-one stopped them since they were such a small crew and the camera was a still camera (with video capabilities) everyone thought they were a married couple simply on vacation.

Screenwriter and actor Mark Polish explained the process.

“It was me, Mike and Stana, and that was it. We shot for 12 days, and the whole point was to capture this really intense intimacy between the two characters.”

Most of the team’s hotels and meals were comped by their contacts and friends; their only expenses were food and a few taxis, but Mark and Michael Polish don’t consider that part of the budget since those charges would have been incurred if they took a vacation instead.

Michael Polish, mark polish, the polish brothers, for lovers only Stana vatic, Canon 5D Mark II, no budget filmmaking
Making of For Lovers Only (Available on IFHTV).

Michael Polish said that their hotels and some meals were comped; they shot and edited with the equipment they already owned; and they don’t consider the few grand worths of meals, taxis and the like to be part of an actual budget.

“There was not one dime that came out of our pocket specifically for this movie — besides the food we ate, but we had to eat, anyway.”

Now what makes the filmmaking story really interesting is the film made of $500,000 through self-distribution. Yup, that’s right. How might you ask?

Using Social Media to SELL!

Michael Polish was extremely smart for casting Stana Katic not only for her amazing beauty and talent but she also had a huge fan base from her hit ABC television show Castle. At Michael Polish’s request, Stana tweeted out to her over 67,000 twitter followers that the film was available on iTunes and word spread very quickly.

Related: How to Make a Feature Film for $1000 with Mark Duplass

Michael Polish leveraged not only his and his brother’s own social networks and also Stana’s. Katic’s rabid Twitter and Facebook followings spread the word.

Then Michael Polish found that the film’s #hashtag was drawing over 1,000 tweets an hour, he drafted up posters using the Twitter raves in place of critics’ quotes. Those posters went viral on Twitter and Tumblr, and further helped create an amazing amount of iTune pre-sales.

I can’t express to you enough that they created this enter film completely in the DIY, no-budget filmmaking process. From shooting it to marketing and selling it. This is a model that should be studied by all indie filmmakers. Now you can find the film on all the usual suspects of VOD (Netflix, iTunes, YouTube, Amazon & Movies on Demand via FilmBuff). Since he and his brother own the film, they keep all the profit.

Michael Polish sat down with me for an amazing interview about his filmmaking life, Hollywood and what it means to be an artist.

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Alex Ferrari 1:42
So today's episode, man I'm so so so excited for this episode you guys are getting to get so much info and knowledge off of my guest. His name is Michael Polish Michael Polish is one half of the Polish brothers who are known for making some amazing independent films and films like northfork with Nick nulty, James Woods, Ben Foster, Daryl Hannah and a bunch of other movies There's a wonderful movie Roger Ebert called it a masterpiece. And it is wonderful to watch and the story behind that movie is even more impressive than the movie itself. They came out swinging with their first film, Twin Falls, Idaho, which was a independent film about Siamese conjoined Siamese twins, which is not the easiest thing to get financed. And they'll tell us stories about that, followed by jackpot. Again, North Fork, and then many other films like Big Sur starring Kate Bosworth, among others, but one of the reasons I really wanted to bring him onto the show is not just to talk about all his early indie indie work, but the specific film that I really wanted to go into with him is his movie called for lovers only. This movie was shot on a basically a zero budget. It was shot basically with him as a director, his brother as one of the stars. And the other star was staying at Kate tech from castle fame with Nathan Fillion on ABC. And this movie was has was shot first and foremost on a DSLR back in 2011. So they were kind of the first if not the first, feature film shot on a DSLR. They shot the entire movie in Paris, France. And Michael goes in deep detail about what kind of gear he used, how he was able to get into like amazing locations and cafes and things like that in France, without a permit without anything like that. So it's guerilla filmmaking at its finest. But that's all wonderful. And there's a lot of great stories about filmmakers who make these small, independent movies. But the wonderful thing about this one is that he actually made money and not chump change, bind you real money, they've reportedly have grossed over half a million dollars on a basically no budget film shot on a DSLR. It's one of the few films that have been shot on the DSLR that has made a lot of money. To my knowledge, I might be wrong. I'm sure there are others out there. But this is the one that I heard of. So please, if anybody knows of any other DSLR movies that have been made that have gone out and made money, please let us know in the comments. They were one of the first independent films to actually leverage iTunes and they sold the majority of that of all their sales on iTunes. They didn't make any big festival premieres or anything like that. They just kind of guerrilla did completely So he tells us the whole story I really asked him a lot of detail questions about how he was able to make that movie, along with all this other amazing gems of information. He was so kind to, he spoke to me for almost over an hour and a half. And I was just kept grilling him about questions. So he was such a pleasure to speak to. And just so giving of his time and of his knowledge and experience, he's been making movies now for God over 20 years, I think at this point. So it's been pretty amazing what he's able to do so without any further ado, guys, please enjoy my conversation with Michael Polish. I'd like to welcome to the show, Michael Polish. Thank you so much for being on the show, man.

Michael Polish 5:42
Appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

Alex Ferrari 5:44
So first question I'm going to ask you is how did you get that part in Hellraiser?

Michael Polish 5:49
Oh, man. You know, only only indie guru guys like yourself will ask that question. I've been asked that question maybe three times in my whole life. And guys that are very serious about cinephiles really understand. I, I was we were doing the movie Twin Falls, Idaho, we were actually researching makeup and how we were on those two, character two twins together. And Gary Tunnicliffe was the effects supervisor on that show. And in exchange for him helping us they asked us if we wanted to do a bit part in that Hellraiser. So sort of it was it was sort of a, you know, a trade. You know, and it was, it was great, because you got to meet Doug pinhead, and you've got to see how the movies are being made. And that's relatively low. We're low budget movies to that point.

Alex Ferrari 6:39
I was a sequel that was like, what the third sequel is? I'm like that was it? Yeah, it was Hellraiser bloodline. Right?

Michael Polish 6:43
Yeah. But my. And you, you got to see how long makeup sessions were in. And sort of how everybody got together to make something pretty, you know, pretty special in terms of you have a lot of people create, you know, do creating a movie that you don't necessarily get to see or hear about all the time.

Alex Ferrari 7:04
Right. And now when was that? That was what the 90s? Right?

Michael Polish 7:06
Yeah, that was the 90s. That was that was lesson three?

Alex Ferrari 7:11
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So let me ask you what made you want to become a filmmaker, you and your brother,

Michael Polish 7:16
I was. I was from, I was going to high school up in a small town suburbs of Sacramento. And I was fairly good at drawing. And I knew a lot, I was really obsessive about movies and watching movies. And from work. Remember, in the 70s. In the 80s, I saw just about everything that came out in the theaters. And I would see three or four movies a day, especially in air conditioning times, like the summer we'd probably watch for movies, and one, one complex. And then I didn't have the background in film, because there wasn't there was either super eight and seven, there were some 16 cameras around, but it's very difficult to get our hands in to get it all developed. So So what did I end up doing was applying to Cal Arts, which is just up in Santa Clarita with all my drawings and design work, and I and I was able to get into that school, right out of high school, and then get myself fluent in cameras and how it worked and how film works. So I didn't really get an education in filmmaking, but I was in an environment which had a lot of filmmakers in it.

Alex Ferrari 8:23
So you weren't on the track for because Cal Arts is kind of like a breeding ground for Disney is not

Michael Polish 8:30
yet true. And there are other bought other animation funding and a lot of their staff either worked for Disney or has connections to Disney. And it's a wonderful school for animation. It really isn't Pixar, when I was there was being born. And a lot of Pixar. A lot of Pixar, today's Pixar are the ones running the running Pixar on doing a lot of the films.

Alex Ferrari 8:51
They're very cool. So I first discovered you when I saw the film northfork many, many, many years ago what it's absolutely a gorgeous film, by the way. But when I did some research, I found out that the financing fell through a few days before Principal photography, is that true? Well, how did how did how in god's green earth did you get because that's not a simple little like a couple people in a room movie. That's a period it was a period of peace.

Michael Polish 9:16
Yeah, the sets are being built. And you find yourself you're you're find yourself when you're making a movie and financing false true that it's it's not that uncommon when you're a filmmaker. And that happens, you probably should figure out if you survive that you're going to be when a group of really good filmmakers that have had this happen to them. You're in pretty, you're pretty, you're pretty in a pretty good class when that happens. However, when we were we were up there for about four to four to six weeks, and every set was being built so we had money being spent, but the second, or the third round of money that is supposed to land never, never really landed. And so we stretched what we could into the first week of principle but By the second by the second week, we were just out of out of funds. And so we were having everybody's kind of scramble for money and we ended up borrowing money from, I ended up buying a couple hundreds of 1000s of dollars. That's an and in getting the movie finished, I just, we just got the movie in the can, it was new, we couldn't even get the post. And so what we ended up doing was borrowing that money coming flying back from Montana, cutting a teaser trailer that was a little bit longer and then started to show a very rough cut. And we showed it to Sony classics, which was the was the they released jackpot they released Twin Falls, Idaho, their first previous features, and Paramount classics was in Miramax and those those Paramount was having a really good run. And we went and showed Ruth fatale who was running at the time, and she put an offer on the minute the movie ended and, and actually paid exactly what the movie cost and then some and so we were able to finish the movie with without having that sort of stress of, of, you know, try to pay that person back. And and it was a remarkable time. And it was a remarkable time a very stressful time but but in the sense of making a movie that we actually want to see on the screen is it was intended that it was intended and for me is one of my favorite experiences regardless of financial.

Alex Ferrari 11:34
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, the for everybody who has not seen that movie. I mean, it has an insane cast with McNulty and James Wood. So I mean, it's like it's not only that you financing fall through on your independence, it was it was an independent film, right? Basically,

Michael Polish 11:49
It was I believe, we finished and then we got home for about 800 that I think we've paid about 800,000 at that point, and then we finished it for one, I would say roughly between one four and one seven, we ended up yeah. Yeah, no, no, no. To 30,000. To do Yeah, she doesn't just do we found it yesterday was released. And it's and you know, ironically, how I'm accepting the golden thumb award that Roger Ebert gives out post Roger Ebert next week, because it was one of his favorite movies. So yeah, and that, yeah, that was that was when we permitted at Sundance, we permitted at the big theater echoes and does it I don't know if there's 1000 people can fit in there. Maybe 1200. Yeah, and we, I remember, when you have to present it, and we come up, I came up after and it was dark, and the lights come on, and not a single person moved in. Oh, god, this is just it is. This is a disaster. And I'm just standing there No. And I see this big your walk in the middle of the front and back in the back in the theater, come up, walk up the stairs, and it was Roger Ebert. And he comes up on the podium. And just as we have breakfast with me in the morning, talk to us. It's a great episode. I was so shocked. And then then once he did that everybody started raising their hands.

Yeah. Yeah, he was. He's done that a couple times in my career. That's why I have a fairly good relationship with Him. And I've had a great relationship with him because he was he was such a film fan. And he also protected the people and helped usher people and filmmakers that, that he thought that needed other people to understand what they were doing. And he did that he would even tell you that if you missed the target, he thought a couple of movies submit the target, but he said I can't wait to see what you do next.

Alex Ferrari 14:10
That's a very impressive budget for that kind of period. Peace movie. I mean, even even back in the night with that, yeah, back in the night. 2000. So 2000s. So coming from an indie world because you definitely are, you know, definitely it's all up until astronaut farmer. You had never worked with a major studio. So what was that transition from complete control to do whatever you want to working with the studio? How was that experience?

Michael Polish 14:39
You know, we started with Warner independent, which was having fairly much a distributor on board to do that astronaut farmer as sort of a pseudo independent is especially in the early you know, in the mid 2000s, early 2000s, especially in the late 90s where studios were trying to land grab these before they were being made because they didn't want to get into these bidding wars, there was a few, many majors that were setting up and doing their own productions so they wouldn't have to go to Sundance or go out in the world and bid for these for these movies, because it was just getting very, very expensive for them, it'd be easier for them to make these ideas. So we went to mark Gill who came over from Miramax and he started wanting to order independent pictures on independent productions and it was called whip. And we knew Mark from the days when he wanted to do to Twin Falls, Idaho. And when we made it with weapon we did this movie it was more money that we've seen to make a movie, you know, we had to build a rocket and we wanted to do effects and luckily there was a studio executive way whose name was john Jimin, Jeff Robin off and Jeff was able to really usher in filmmakers and he was he was corralling a lot of early talent, like Christopher Nolan's and, and people like them, the Hughes brothers. And he found that me and me and Mark could probably do something special with the Astro farmer. So our relationship with with Jeff and Mark made that movie happened. And what was understanding with Jeff was, he said, basically, if you see me down in New Mexico, and you're feeling ever problem if you don't see me watch the movie when you get back. And yeah, and I found in recent years, I found Warner Brothers at that time, are really working with something that they're proud they really don't have. They don't have a lot of say they would, they don't have a lot of finger touching and figuring, you know, kind of the minutiae of everything. They want to see what you do. And if there's a problem, they're going to they're going to step in, at least that was my experience with Jeff. And I, and that was way easier than any independent ever made. And because you had you had the, you had the vision, they had the financing for it. And I think Jeff left a legacy at Warner Brothers to prove it. Prove that very, very, right. Yeah, it was jack. And when Jeff was with with Warner Brothers, it was it was a very special time because we saw a lot of, you know, we saw them work with spike Jones. And every, every he just knew how to curl this. This class that was coming in, I say it was about 9097 to 99. In 2000, he was getting these filmmakers to come to Warner Brothers. Yeah, yeah. I

Alex Ferrari 17:41
know, for world, it's a different world than that than 97.

Michael Polish 17:45
Different it's a real different time and their idea of, of not being so eclectic. Right, exactly,

Alex Ferrari 17:53
is what we're saying. And it's, it's a shame because I mean, I grew up we're both similar vintages. So we both kind of grew up around the same time period. So I remember when Disney and Warner's they would put out a $10 million movie or a $15 million movie. And, you know, and those comedies like downtown Beverly Hills back in the 80s. Like what about Bob and those kind of movies and they just don't exist anymore. There's just like, either it's, it's, it's under 5 million, or 100. It's like rare to see anything else?

Michael Polish 18:26
Yeah, they, they really put that Vegas mentality of betting, betting big all the time. You know, that nickel, the nickel and dime a business they just got away from which, you know, it's understandable when you're running a corporation, but it's not understandable when you're a filmmaker.

Alex Ferrari 18:41
Right? Exactly. And I think, you know, I think Batman vs. Superman is probably one of those examples right now that they've bet the farm on it. And they're, they'll do okay, at the end of the day, but I don't think it's what they expected it to be. It's not paying off. It's not paying off exactly the way and what Spielberg said, you know, the implosion of the Hollywood system, like, you know, if a studio can only do Imagine if Batman or Superman made, you know, $100 million, like it would cripple it could cripple a company could it could shut down a studio, and he says a few more of those happen. And it will I think it will happen. Do you agree? I mean, at one point or another, someone's going to make enough mistakes that you know, it's gonna

Michael Polish 19:19
I would have, I've always said when when was $100 million? Something that was a bad thing.

Alex Ferrari 19:27
Like, they would be extremely upset if 100 million if you made 100 million?

Michael Polish 19:32
Yes. When was when was $100 million? It failed, right? Well, when it costs 400. And that and then you have to look at the people that are doing the finger pointing that goes back to the person that's spending the spending the money that you know, having, you know, having said that, you look, you you look at some of the films that do require a lot of money to make, like the Martian. That was was spectacular look at and it was it felt like we were you know it felt like that experience of travel and even the movies like Lawrence of Arabia just thought you were there

Alex Ferrari 20:08
I mean Blade Runner Blade Runner to I don't want for $5 million. I want I want $150 million in that movie you know without and you know and let Ridley do what he does. You know that's

Michael Polish 20:20
yeah and you I mean he looked at Fury Road and you see every every penny on the screen and and more so because it pays forward in a way that is an experience that all the Mad Max films did. They gave you a world and they gave you made you pay attention to another world.

Alex Ferrari 20:40
Absolutely. And that's a fairy. It should be called Furiosa. Yeah, yeah. Max says like five words the whole Yeah. But the thing that's most amazing to me about that specific movie now we're just geeking out for a second but the thing that's the most amazing about Mad Max is that this whole younger generation had no idea that I think what a 70 year old plus director made that and he is his hip and visually stimulating as any younger director out there if not more so.

Michael Polish 21:09
I believe I believe it later. He's you know that's those are the films that got me into filmmaking was the ad Max, the original that was coming out of Australia. I watched what HBO just was a brand new home box office channel and there was two of them. I think it was no there's three it was Showtime, Cinemax, Cinemax, and HBO. And they showed Mad Max probably six times a day. I watched it. And then

Alex Ferrari 21:37
the other times they were playing Terminator. And yeah.

Michael Polish 21:41
Yeah, they ended up and what was fascinating was, how much I learned, you know, it was basically a no man with no name situation going into this world, which is very surgically only. And that's, I would have to say, you know, and then I watched the curve, I really watched the group of Mel Gibson and what he was doing because he ended up turning out to be a wonderful filmmaker.

Alex Ferrari 22:05
I mean, Braveheart and, and even the other one he did right after

Michael Polish 22:09
Apocalypto

Alex Ferrari 22:10
is no, that's the one.

Michael Polish 22:12
Oh, Apocalypto is a feast it is

Alex Ferrari 22:15
a visual feast that movie and a wonderful wonderful wonderful stuff. So so it was an ask you you've worked with some legendary actors. What advice would you have for directors when they are working with very seasoned actors?

Michael Polish 22:32
Listen they've been there they've least listened to their stories of they've either been in the shot you want to do or know the shot you want to do you have acted in the movie like and so you're able to gain a lot of knowledge before you pull the trigger with these guys and or girls these these actors are all well seasoned that I've worked with before and I continue to work with a lot of even young talented actors that mean you treat in this that you everybody treated shows them while you listen to what's going on and then you're able to direct because if you start just shooting around just gonna just make a bunch of you're just gonna make a bunch of holes you know dealing with Nick naughty on in James was extremely two different types of actors extremely two different types of personalities. But yet they both have an incredible presence on screen and are able to demand your attention and if they trust you and what you're doing to walk in it's it's a walk in the park

Alex Ferrari 23:34
it's only a difficult thing when they don't trust you.

Michael Polish 23:37
Yeah, if an actor doesn't trust you in any level you're gonna have a hard time

Alex Ferrari 23:41
exactly and the more seasoned I think probably more difficult the situation might be

Michael Polish 23:47
because they've seen you know they've they've seen it all you know with with most filmmakers The first thing you hear with these younger filmmakers or people that are just trying out they usually say I want to I want to do something that's never been seen before I want to do something has never been seen before. Or I want to put the camera here because there's no cameras probably put in every single hole and every mouth and every year and every building and skyscraper there's every shots been made so do the shot that's going to tell the story correctly.

Alex Ferrari 24:17
Absolutely. Well I was gonna ask you like on the first day of set is there anything you do special when you walk on and like because I mean I know every every movie is a new adventure. So is there a thing you do a ritual because I know Coppola. I've read somewhere that he does like some sort of like a bonding experience with the whole crew and does a whole they eats meat he makes a meal for everybody and stuff like that. Is there something that you do specifically to kind of get this whole adventure off and running

Michael Polish 24:46
there's nothing specifically I've done because I've known a lot of these a lot of my crews since we were coming out of Cal Arts. With the actors I what I try and do is keep it fairly light and not in don't think I'm going to paint this very Heavy with them the very first day is just to show them that they're in really good hands. And I might think of maybe coming with a prayer next time?

Alex Ferrari 25:08
Well, I think I mean, is there any advice about making of an actor feel safe? Because I know that's a big thing with actors, they want to make sure they are in good hands, is there something that any advice you can give directors to kind of give that energy out?

Michael Polish 25:24
I always, you know, I think every director has a special way of communicating with their actors. And some are very, some some directors or actors, and some, they can express and I think if you can articulate exactly what you want in a meaningful manner, then that they can really get what you're saying, and not get too metaphorical with them. in certain ways, I tend to let the first take first or second take be what they what they want to see or what they feel their initial because they've been practicing on their own, or they've had rehearsals, they've come in with their whole, you know, their whole, their whole deck of cards that are going to show you and what your job Your job is to do is render down to see what hands you like, and, and that's speaking in metaphorical terms, what you don't want to do. It's just, you know, I always I always find other ways to explain how to, to communicate. And sometimes you have to use different ways of communication or different methods. But most of the time, I like to see the actor performing. And I trust what they're going to do, because that's, that's their job, and they're really good at it. And they're going to, they're going to try and make the best decisions they can make at the moment when you're filming.

Alex Ferrari 26:41
Now do well, let me ask you a question. They say never to work with family. But But not only do you work with your brother, but you also work with your wife. Right? How do you make working with both of them work?

Michael Polish 26:57
Trust, there's a big trust factor that we're in, we're in this business, business is family and we fall in love with the business and, and in the, in the interpretation when we create, we trust each other that we have chose best interest when they're performing or when we're writing or when we're directing. You want to you want to make sure that that we're all on the same page. And it's a shorthand when you have family that doesn't mean that there is not going to be conflict I find I find less conflict with my wife just because I have to

Alex Ferrari 27:37
go politics I'm married to my friend it's all politics.

Michael Polish 27:39
I have to I had to define the mascot because you

Alex Ferrari 27:44
don't go home and lie down next to your brother at night. Yeah.

Michael Polish 27:47
Yeah, I'm not I've only been tied to him once. Yeah, I was actually tied in once and you know, through the years we haven't done a lot of projects together in the past five years just because our careers took different shapes and shadows and colors. And so I work mainly more with with Kate now, just because I'm finding that you know, I've always loved the leading ladies, I've always loved women that can do leading roles. And I'm really fascinated just like Hitchcock was and all the other human Fincher and all these. You find that if I you know if I want to go down that route with with Kate, I find it really, really educational for me,

Alex Ferrari 28:33
right? I mean, she's a wonderful, wonderful actress. I mean, and then you have earn, what was funny that you have when you were shooting Big Sur? Yeah, I was. And I don't I couldn't believe this. But I literally was driving up the coast. And I saw the film crew on the side by the beach. I'm not I'm not kidding you. Cuz I mean, I mean, I live in LA so I always see film crews everywhere. But we were driving through Big Sur we were going all the way up to Napa Valley for a little vacation, a baby moon with my wife before our kids or my twins were born. And and we look I look over and I'm like, Oh look, there's a film crew. And I'm like, it's not like a little film crew. There's, it's a real film crew. And I was like, I wonder what movies being shot up here. So I later looked it up. I'm like, Oh, it's called Big Sir Michael polish.

Michael Polish 29:22
We were up on the road. We were probably doing some of those scenes where they were driving up and down. Because we were you got us on the day. This bright three days. We were actually on highway. One. We were in Big Sur for weeks. We were out we were down in the canyon for weeks. But being on the road, maybe three days,

Alex Ferrari 29:40
right. I saw I thought the cameras like Well yeah, I think they were I think maybe getting some ocean shots or

Michael Polish 29:45
Yeah, we were praying near Bixby bridge.

Alex Ferrari 29:49
Yeah, it was. It's just it's just ironic. It's funny.

Michael Polish 29:54
Right? I should have stopped by I wish I could. I wish I could

Alex Ferrari 29:57
have uh, we were on our trip to Napa and last thing My wife was gonna go like I don't want to go to another set right now I

Michael Polish 30:04
don't want to go another set essentially are set because we were really living like beings at that point

Alex Ferrari 30:12
so one of my favorite films you've done is for lovers only. I absolutely love that movie and it gave indie filmmakers hope that anyone with a good story and a camera can make an amazing film.

Michael Polish 30:24
So that was a that was a that was a very very fun movie to make

Alex Ferrari 30:28
I mean so it can you please fill in the fill the audience in on how the film came to be and the unique process in which you shot it. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Michael Polish 30:47
But the Mark and I were talking we were we were doing movies back to back with fairly big budgets and it was I think it was 2009 when economically films were being funded the way they were used to independence are usually funded from outside the studio space and you're finding fund film funds are drying up we wanted to you know we already aligned ourselves with a couple studios and we are writing screenplays at the moment but we weren't making anything and we always had this idea to do a black and white movie or just a French New Wave Titan cinematic experience was which was sort of our tour we are we travel a lot through Europe for all of our movies and we thought maybe France would be great to shoot in and he said well we have this idea I said let's not spend a lot of time trying to make something spectacular because we're not going to have a huge budget if we all shoot it all shoot it and I'll direct it and we'll make it a two hander you and we'll find another girl so we had this story he had an idea of a story of having a love of current Paris and I said well let me get you continue writing all go to Paris and I'll be there for four weeks and I'll scoop it all out and I'll get all of the fine locations so as a sort of a tandem act going on he was here in LA writing and I was in in Paris looking at stuff and I had the Canon five D was fairly new and it was being having the video component component on it was doing doing the work that most people were shooting small commercials on or you were looking you were just seeing the birth of this DSLR right that's yeah that's gonna happen what I found was if you were using cinema lenses they're a little too big and they weren't mount they were having to do another mount and I didn't I really didn't feel like carrying on those type of lenses so I went in and found these Zeiss lenses that were had the nice focus pool but they were smaller likes very short lenses and I was looking at a 15 millimeter and and I went to when I went to Paris I was going you know this deal they look great but there's something not quite right about it. And when I turned it to black and white the grays were very light and milky and and I go well if this is the way it's going to look I'm just going to try and figure this out. So I remember driving around Paris and stacking filters like threes and threes and sixes and nines on these I was just making the most dense image I could make and black and white I was going back to my hotel room and playing this back I go wow we're starting to get to a real black and like it very easy black and white. And I think we're gonna get somewhere in and um and so I called up Mark and I said I'm ready. I'm gonna send you a clip of Paris with a shot and you just tell me what you think. And he said, okay, he watched it he goes okay, I'll be over there next week. And he said yeah, but we need a girl on Star Academy who is on castle came in and we spoke to her and she was I get off those show in like two weeks and I'll come over and that's basically how that was done. We didn't tell him Mark gave her the script on the plane.

Alex Ferrari 34:15
How did you pitch her he said How did you pitch indigenous? No Are

Michael Polish 34:19
we she was at the same agency we were at

Alex Ferrari 34:23
are we we were but how did you did you know or did you reach out to her? I forget what agency we're at. We're at the same

Michael Polish 34:29
same agency they will give us a list of actresses that will wouldn't be willing to actually actually was they're not going to read the script you're going to go to Paris with the Polish brothers and that's it basically that's what's really it's about so whoever walked in whoever walked in whoever walked in that room was really really brave and she was one of them that said I choose so many moving northward and I would do you guys want I'm just gonna get you know I'm gonna she's very polite and very genuine about it. And and when Mark and Her got on the plane he handed her the script and I'm I was already in Paris and so when they landed with the minute they landed we started rolling and we did it. I shot the film and we were at night we were doing which they ended up naming it which we didn't have an idea was you just download we just download

Alex Ferrari 35:22
it. Download it right? Yeah, you weren't. We weren't

Michael Polish 35:25
in here we were just we were just I was downloading at night giving my SD cards arrest walking around Paris and we ended up circling the whole country of France we ended up going to send Michelle all the way down to what you do in the morning call her when can and nice and and we did all that within we did think we did it in 12 days.

Alex Ferrari 35:48
Jesus that's a hell of a hell of a beatnik pay.

Michael Polish 35:51
Yeah, it was it was a heck of a ride because we had motorcycles and cars and it was just me and Mark it's Donna. The majority of the time when we were driving around and then I had an assistant named Sean O'Grady who was carrying basically carrying a backpack and and the sound equipment

Alex Ferrari 36:10
Yeah, I was gonna ask you this with as far as sound is concerned, did you did you patch it directly into the camera or did you record it on a location recorder

Michael Polish 36:18
both depending on the environment I did just pretty much a scratch track onto the camera as much as possible because I knew even though it was tinny and the highs and lows are not so good there was a medium range that if they didn't get excited, we were able to get some some pretty nice dialogue that we could work with. I would say the film The film ultimately suffered with with some sound but then it also gave it a feel about authenticity. You know, it wasn't it wasn't great, I would say now if we're if we were to do that again I would just do a to system you know all the way around and just have it have somebody who was mixing them mixing the sound as we were going along but then it but then again I wouldn't say that would preclude anybody that's listening not to go do it and put it on your camera

Alex Ferrari 37:07
right it just it yes go especially with the whole mumble core and that that whole generation of filmmakers that just come out and just like let's just go shoot something Yeah. Now did you with in did you do audio post production at all?

Michael Polish 37:22
Yeah, we did it with a friend of mine that was that was his dad did northfork and Ascot farmer and did Big Sur do a lot of my recent movies and he was able to take the tracks and clean them up on his own time because we weren't we weren't paying anybody so he was he would take the tracks and spend time cleaning them up and he would do his passes on it and he also got some students to help with him to do it that we're learning sound at the same time and yeah, and you know we had a composers name was qubee whose name is kool aid you know, I went to Cal Arts with them and he did some work on with films before so he was able to bring in really classical classically trained musicians to put down tracks in his in his house so he could double up a cello he could do trumpet and I found that to be whenever when all the other crew members and all the other special positions that we're doing on the real talented people they pull they pull good I did which is what their people you know and that and I feel that that's that's a collective and it's also it works when when you're filming people that are going to do what you do what you can review

Alex Ferrari 38:31
what was the equipment just listed off like the lenses the camera the tripod?

Michael Polish 38:37
By took my tripod genius I needed Boba Fett

Alex Ferrari 38:42
you were Star Wars fan then.

Michael Polish 38:44
Yeah, it was just so it this thing was tough. And it was like a kubaton it was like a stealth It was a monopod that I used to do the whole movie but at the bottom of the Mondo pad. It had a chicken foot, you know it had three, three prongs on it. But mainly it could stand there by itself and you wouldn't see it as a traditional tripod. And so you could take the chicken foot off and keep it as a monopod. And this thing was a savior I still I shot with it this last week and I was I was in Hawaii and I was shooting some some surfing stuff and I think it's had its day I kind of might have to put it to rest.

Alex Ferrari 39:22
I retire it put it in the office,

Michael Polish 39:24
I would say Boba Fett was my thing. And I kept me as a cane and kept me going through things and and i i had two bodies that to camera I had to five DS but mainly I would say 90% of that movie was shot on Zeiss 50 millimeter lens. very wide and it could go in you could tuck it up pretty close. I did have an 85 which was probably stone as close ups and mark over the shoulders and similar stuff from Marcus Donna was 85 it was as close as I got with an 85 And then the 50 was basically at 550 that resides that I carried around basically,

Alex Ferrari 40:06
but they were photo lenses or they were cinema lenses. They were

Michael Polish 40:09
photo lenses, but they but Zeiss made these cinema lenses but they weren't those huge suckers that were thinking now they were. I mean, they've looked, what's the difference is is that they have focal points focal marks. So you're able to actually see when you pull.

Alex Ferrari 40:28
Oh, yes. So the focus is on the side down on the top. Yeah, like photography, it's in, you can see them,

Michael Polish 40:34
but they look exactly like agafay lenses and, and so we ended up doing that, and that was a lot that was that was basically one photo backpack that was a backpack that carry my, it was small, but the length probably about 24 inches tall, maybe less. And I put everything my clothes, everything. And then when I carried that around. For 12 days, I was back on a plane on the 13th day. I mean, I was already there for four weeks scouting it out. But it what was nice about being in France was going into cafes and shooting scenes. I

Alex Ferrari 41:16
was gonna ask you like what's like some of the ridiculous locations you got? Because you were just in them. You just look like a couple, you know?

Michael Polish 41:22
Yeah. It was I always said, I always said I was falling around for their wedding video, if anyone asked. Yeah, I would say they're getting married. And we're doing this video because a lot of relatives can't come to France. So

Alex Ferrari 41:34
that's how you stole locations. I love it.

Michael Polish 41:37
But, but because at that time, that camera wasn't even flagged for having a video or component and would take your degrees enough to shoot a movie on that thing.

Alex Ferrari 41:50
Like no one knew no one knew you were under the React.

Michael Polish 41:54
You know, I still believe that the five D gets away with a lot more stuff, too. I mean, you could probably still pull a few levers off the same way. Yeah, just yeah. And then the sensitivity to that camera as opposed to video cameras. two different worlds to deal with the common person that sees what we're doing. So basically, it was it was it was to answer your question. efficiently is, it was two bodies. two lenses. backpack and a tripod. Yeah, the monopod

Alex Ferrari 42:32
No, yeah. Oh, yeah. Cuz it looks like it's like just still camera.

Michael Polish 42:36
Yeah, we had Forgive me because I don't have the name of it. But it's the cross. You know, it's the it's the, it's the mic. It's a book that has the tube didn't matter people gonna say they're gonna say God damn as dumb as like, you know, talking about is like, the fact is, I know what I know what I see. I don't know the words on the on the machine

Alex Ferrari 42:59
then as far as audio is concerned. You had I saw a picture that you had a mic plugged into the

Michael Polish 43:06
that was the recorder that we were we were doing it on these. They were actually the small SD SD cards that were putting sound

Alex Ferrari 43:14
recording on the SD card.

Michael Polish 43:17
Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 43:18
You guys are really just, you mean just threw caution to the wind on this one.

Michael Polish 43:24
Yo, yo, yeah. Yeah, it

Alex Ferrari 43:27
must have been an adventure and a half.

Michael Polish 43:30
Yeah, brilliant when it's really done as in the theater. But before that, you're just you're building the roller coaster.

Alex Ferrari 43:36
Now with the screenplay was a lot of it. Was it all written out? Or was there a bunch of improv during that process?

Michael Polish 43:42
Say 75% of the 70 to 75% of screenplay was written, okay. The other 25% was, you know, like, when they're like putting on makeup in that hotel, or they're going out to drink a party, like going into other people's rooms and exit. That was all that was done on site. And then

Alex Ferrari 44:02
you just found it in the Edit.

Michael Polish 44:04
Yeah, we found in the Edit we, we were, we had a lot of footage like them hanging out. We'd be in hotel rooms waiting to go downstairs to do a scene and they'd be sitting in the bathtub or they would be looking at the view or just hanging out. We basically follow two people in love around Europe. I mean, we around France, and we were able to they were so in tune to what they were doing it they were on vacation, and I was just documenting it.

Alex Ferrari 44:34
Yeah, they seem to have an insane amount of chemistry. Yeah. No, it was wonderful to see.

Michael Polish 44:41
They didn't. They didn't understand that there was a camera and following and

Alex Ferrari 44:46
they were just there. They were just enjoying it. When I watched the movie, it's almost surreal. The whole process, the whole imagery, the the whole everything the the way that the almost I want to use the word ghostly, With surreal, dreamlike, they're like very, very dreamlike in the sense of the way it was percept that like the way it was shot and just the energy of it. I feel not to compare the movies but Eyes Wide Shut. How has that dream like surreal vibe. They're very different movies. But that I just said was the only film that came to me. Now with you did this amazing production you you push the envelope you were like the first feature to ever be made on a five D or one of the first?

Michael Polish 45:33
Yeah, one of the first I'd say we're in, we're in that we're in that discussion of being present based It was released as one of the first

Alex Ferrari 45:42
which was brings me to my next question. You are one of the first independent films that I know of to take full advantage of the VOD and digital distribution platform. Was that part of your plan? Was there a plan?

Michael Polish 45:55
Well, there was a, there was a plan that we wanted to make a movie without restrictions, meaning, we didn't feel like we had to go sell this movie at the end of the day or go have distributor meetings. Although that would, that would be great, too. I mean, we all intend to make our movies to be on the screen and we all compositions are to be on the big screen. However, when we thought of doing this, this five deep movie, we thought, you know, we can make something intimate that you could just watch it on your iPad. And you could be anywhere and it could we could just fly it out to wherever you're at. So this movie would have a small run anyways, maybe a 510 city theater and nobody would see it. So why don't we just make a deal with an iTunes or a VOD and zap it out to everybody?

Alex Ferrari 46:40
And this was 2011. Yeah, it was.

Michael Polish 46:45
I think it was 2009 when it came out, right? Yeah, but we didn't do that the deal was done in 2010.

Alex Ferrari 46:51
Right? So 2010 and 2016. For VOD online is still it was a very different world, not nearly as many options. But iTunes was around and iTunes was just starting to kind of ramp up.

Michael Polish 47:04
Yeah. Yeah. It had, yeah, didn't have a lot of on their catalogue. But they were showing, I think things that were associated with Apple, or maybe things or shows associated with Disney, that everything was going digital. They were they were we gave them the specs. And they took that they took the movie. And it was it was nice, because we got invaded by all the fans that heard about the movie,

Alex Ferrari 47:31
right? So how did that whole work like how did you how did you get the word out on the film? Like how did you mark it? Stannah had

Michael Polish 47:36
a really big following in, in Europe, especially Eastern Europe, there was some festivals being played. And so we sent the film to a Polish festival and a couple of them forget the other festivals, and we didn't even show up. But I believe Donna went to one of them. And it was the reverse effect. Worried was coming out of Europe that this French New Wave was coming to the United States, starring her. So all her fans built this huge, huge following for the film. So when it opened here, people heard about it already.

Alex Ferrari 48:12
Wow. So was the reverse marketing campaign

Michael Polish 48:15
first marketing without truly knowing and audience that she had wanted to see her do a feature monitor to see her in this feature film.

Alex Ferrari 48:23
I'm a big fan of Stan. I mean, I love it. We watched all the episodes of castle a big fan of she's, she's a lot of fun to work with. Yeah, she's she's a lot of a lot of fun. And so you basically we're doing something that a lot of people talk about today, including myself is trying to leverage social media and leverage fan bases of your actors to help sell your independent movie. Right?

Michael Polish 48:47
And, yeah, it's social media. And how many followers do you

Alex Ferrari 48:50
exactly that's like this is it's not like, what are your credits? Like? What's your following? Yeah, how many? How many Twitter followers you have any Facebook followers? How many?

Michael Polish 48:59
I just tell you right now, I could not open a movie with my followers. Even I couldn't make a movie with my vault.

Alex Ferrari 49:06
Well, I'll help you with that if you'd like sir. Yeah.

Michael Polish 49:09
Great. You're doing pretty dang good.

Alex Ferrari 49:11
I appreciate it. Man. I appreciate it. I've been in the field. hustles been around for about seven months. So we've been I work good hard.

Michael Polish 49:21
You hustle.

Alex Ferrari 49:22
I hustle, no question about it. And for people that and for everyone who doesn't know I literally just tweeted Michael on Twitter a couple days ago. Yeah, you'd had and he's like, yeah, I can do the hustle. Sure. Yeah. And a couple days later, it's the fastest turnaround for an interview I've ever had.

Michael Polish 49:40
Well, you know, I've been, I've been where most of these listeners have been, and hopefully they all get to go through the journey that I've been through as an independent filmmaker. I still consider myself a film, you know, indie guy all the way through but I never ever do not say I don't have the time to help or at least help somebody that Some advice in that situation in that situation because you get some good mentors in this in this industry and you get a lot of good advice and you get a lot of bad advice at the same time and you know getting down and doing your burn Bare Knuckle filmmaking is basically how to get it down.

Alex Ferrari 50:17
Thank you and thank you for that. I know the I know the indie film hustle tribe really appreciates it Now one other question this is a more of a of a tech as an actor technical question. With with four lovers for lovers only since you basically were experimental as far as a SAG is sag contracts concern How did that work when you actually started making money?

Michael Polish 50:39
Oh,

Alex Ferrari 50:39
I'm sure that was a conversation that

Michael Polish 50:42
was occurring it's still a conversation it's a commerce it's a conversation with any union I DGA I won't say that they fired me but in any any it's a tough when you're dealing with union because I'm in line with all three of them and so you you can't you know what I'm going to what I would like to say is not really what I'm going to say but of course I will say something about the DGA they weren't very kind for me going out and making that movie.

Alex Ferrari 51:11
I've heard that about the DGA. They have wonderful benefits, and they're very strong Union for directors. But I mean, that's why Robert Rodriguez left that's why the Tarantino and Lucas aren't part of it, you know, but it's interesting that they're there to help directors but when directors go off and do something like this, like they they don't allow it or but I think now they're a little bit different. I think they're they're kind of like that ultra low budget. Yeah, like sag does now I think the DJ finally caught up to that, am I right? That are

Michael Polish 51:42
they, they caught up with it, it's, I feel it's still a slippery slope with unions. Because you know, every filmmaker has a right to go create whatever they want. And if it's not in the parameters, or in their guidelines, they're going to they're going to make a fuss and and you know, the union is good when it comes to benefits and taking care of zoo animals and stuff. Yeah, in your in your personal side of your living and what your whatnot. But in terms of professional professionally, they haven't seemed to have the, they're not built for renegades or any Mavericks or any of anybody is trying to do something that hasn't been done before. They're not built for that. Right. Now the status quo. Yeah, it's a traditionalism that I understand. Because it's romantic. And it's great to keep making, you know, 1020 $30 million movies back to back but that's not the way the world works and, and they have to adapt to filmmakers that go this Guess what, I'm gonna make a movie for 10 grand. And I'll make one for 100 grand, I'll make one for you. It's about the filmmakers work at the end of the day, and how they're going to provide for them or their family and actually get better because they have to get better at their craft. And sometimes getting a $10 million film school isn't going to work.

Alex Ferrari 52:52
So so then that conversation would sag and stuff like because I'm asking for my own now asking selfishly because I'm doing low budget films as well. And that whole sag ultra low budget you know, we're experimental and things like that I guess that's to a certain point. And then after money starts coming in, then the quest there's the conversation to be had basically correct.

Michael Polish 53:11
Yeah. And, you know, the strange The strange thing about that conversation is studios have been making money a long time and they're not they don't seem to be going to find them for anything. And everybody's there you know, studios being sued left and right surely just being for money they said has been made and they can't find where they've put in they said they've lost and some of the biggest movies you've ever seen are in the red still. And but yet you have the unions coming after the smaller people saying well, if you make money we want to see it it's a it's a as I say it's a it's a hard it's a hard conversation to have with the union that is actually looking for for money. And when you do make the money so happy you made the money, you've probably already spent it.

Alex Ferrari 53:59
And they're like, Where's our money? Iraq? I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about.

Michael Polish 54:04
Would you say we all filmmaker say it's called back pay?

Alex Ferrari 54:07
It's exactly, exactly. So um, you wrote a book, the declaration of independent filmmaking, which I had no idea about until I started doing research. I already it's on order and coming to me, so I can't wait to read it. Can you tell us a little bit about the book?

Michael Polish 54:23
Yeah, the book was written we were being approached. Because before you and a few other of your, of your contemporaries that do podcasts and other people and do this, this type of you know actually goodwill work. It's a lot of goodwill work. You had books that were coming out like Robert Rodriguez, you know, El Mariachi and in the making of how to make I remember the big book was how to make a $7,000 movie. Yeah, how to make or how to make a movie on use card price. Oh,

Alex Ferrari 54:53
yes, yes, Mr. Schmidt.

Michael Polish 54:55
I knew it see these things. But what You know, besides Robert and a few other you saw a lot of filmmaking manuals that were people that either made one movie or their professors in school, they were making, there wasn't a lot of I wasn't gonna do after my first movie because I didn't know if I was going to be able to the second one, the third one after northfork in that experience about that we have enough under our belt that we could help other filmmakers not we're actually not do some of the things that we did and actually improve the situation if they were able to understand what we were at. And also to say, we've had success three times in a row, but that doesn't mean we're we're more wealthy or richer, we what we do have is knowledge. And in those, that book is accumulation leads all the way up to astronaut farmer. It stops before we start making National Farmers. So you see Twin Falls, Idaho, how's that made and jackpot being the first digital movie because we're using Lucas's cameras that he was developing with Sony. And, and then we did northfork, which was the biggest of all three, but each of them were distributed, and we're out. And at that time was seen as a success. All three films are seen as somewhat of a success, but also they were made under all three different conditions. One was 400,001. One was 100,000. And the other one was at the end was 1,000,000.7. So you saw a different range of all types of budgets, and

Alex Ferrari 56:26
you could talk you could talk intelligently about all three experiences, and you had a range of experience talk about

Michael Polish 56:33
Yeah, and with actors, it started out with two unknown, completely unknown people, which were me and my brother doing Twin Falls getting in the jackpot and using a lot of working actors for that were really known just with the actors, which was john Grice. And, and even though beziehen Warren was, is was there, there was also Patrick Boucher, who was doing it, he was he was doing guileless show, he was on TV, but he was a fresh new wave actor, he was great. And so we were able to Garrett Morris who was from SNL, so we started to graduate into getting a lot of great actors great actors but not what we would call ones that were going to finance your movie which and then when we got into doing northfork we ended up working with idols that we saw on once upon a time in America and in seeing McNulty and James Woods so it was a you're able to see that we started by putting ourselves in a movie then you could graduate cast other people and then it was able to get your nor some very notoriety you know some big names and those I think those three movies I believe we're able to show in every different situation every situation most people are in even if they are now what is it like to do a movie when nobody knows you would like to do your second movie when you've had success you know it really as a combination of our career wrapped up in a few years with those those three movies and and you think it's difficult to make your first one it's harder to make your second one and then your fifth one you never think you're going to ever make a movie again. It's It's, it's, it's a it's a constant mental game also that I have to understand that. Don't if you write a screenplay and you hold on to it too long, you say this is my favorite movie. I've always gonna make it he doesn't get major you might be 10 years down the road has not been made. Best thing you can do is write another screenplay and another screenplay. And keep crafting that because one day one's going to hit you say, dang, I have a whole locker full of scripts.

Alex Ferrari 58:36
As opposed to just having one which is a big mistake a lot of filmmakers make

Michael Polish 58:40
Yeah, yeah, I've seen that. I mean, there's still filmmakers today when I started out in the 90s still have that are still humping that first screenplay. Oh, Jesus.

Alex Ferrari 58:47
Now, how did you like I had a question about Twin Falls, Idaho. How much was

Michael Polish 58:52
the budget for that? Just under 500,000. How did

Alex Ferrari 58:56
you get financing for your first movie of a half a million dollars with no. Did you have you? Did you have anything before? like did you shoot I mean, I

Michael Polish 59:04
I was shoot. Yeah, I had, I had a few shorts. I had a few shorts. I had a couple I would say music videos, because that was happening. And I did one really nice sync sound short that I cut and went around and festivals. And that was probably, I would say a calling card for people to say that I could direct a narrative. But But what's tricky about doing shorts and I don't know if it's still the same as today. But back when everybody's making shorts. It wasn't very much a graduation ticket to make a feature because they would say, Well, we know you can make a short. You're gonna make another short or you make a feature. And the short doesn't tell anybody you can make a feature. It just says you're capable of doing something in a short period of time and if you'd like it, then And so if so I felt that we fought we fell on trumpet that shirt because I would take it around and show it at the DGA. I show it to other people think oh, this is really great. What are you doing next I said why I was screenplay. And it was actually northfork was the very first screenplay we ever wrote. And they looked at that and they go, you're nuts. You're nuts. If you want to make movies big, it's in Montana. It's on the High Plains. And, I mean, you're looking at Heaven's Gate right now.

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You're looking at the second biggest disaster movie, if we give you money for this for this. And so we wrote 24 zero. And we know what that's going to be too big in North American Beauty. But let's do something we could actually just get behind. We can be in it, we can actually do it for 1000s of dollars. We have the crew, we have the person making the suit, we could actually pull it off that movie for $25,000. We could have pulled that movie out for that much. And we were getting ready to do it. We were three months out. And our motto was this not set a budget, let's set a time. And it was around Christmas. And I said, we're gonna give our six months to finance this movie if we don't have finance, but at least the costume movie belt locations will be found. I'll get we're shooting a film. So I said, I'll get Kansas short. And so I made all my relationships with division. I made everything with Fuji and I had everything set and I said June 1, we're going to shoot this in LA. And so we were going ahead and doing it for just whatever we can scrape together. Three, eight weeks, eight weeks before we started to shoot. A financer who was coming out of Seattle was coming down and financing small movies and one of the ladies named Rena Ronson. Now she's a she's an agent over at whim. Now she's not worried. She started at William Morris. she, her and Cassie nowadays are putting movies together. She said, you I want you to meet this. I want you to meet this investor, because she's coming out. Yeah, she's only here for a couple of days. And they're doing small, small movies. And I think she respond to it. And so one evening we drove down is right across the street from under the tarp, the bread tar pits, which is so ironic, because you could feel like that's where your career is at at that.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:34
I've been there. I know.

Michael Polish 1:02:35
It smells like it doesn't smell very good. And my we probably didn't smell very good. Yes. Can we blend it in really well. So we went into this meeting, and the lady read the screenplay and said, I want to let you guys know something. I have. I think she said I had twins. I have twin sisters. Oh, I understand what this is about. And I've been happily like to make this movie for you. Do you have a budget? I choose? Can you do it for a price? Because I'm because I'm going to? I'm going to warn it like, I'm never gonna see this money again. Because it's crazy to do a movie. Yeah, it's just nuts. And nobody knows who you guys are in. And nobody's gonna want to be in this movie if you even know somebody. So it just had everything work. Yes.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:18
Very much on paper. Yeah. Um,

Michael Polish 1:03:21
so I was when we said we do it for the low budget agreement, which was 500. And under. She said, you can get it for that agreement. That's, that's 50 times more than the money I'm doing right now. So we'll figure this out. And within six weeks, we were shooting

Alex Ferrari 1:03:38
it. Wow. That's that's pretty amazing, actually. Right? Every time.

Michael Polish 1:03:46
But my my advice to filmmakers is, continue, like you're just gonna make it and do it. Because when the money comes, you're ready to go already. You're not waiting for money, then you're starting up and saying, Well, I'm not sure. Get your budget on for what you think you can do for and understand that you might lock in bigger financing, but see what you can do afford, get your scheduling down. Get the people that want that you can get for your moving the timing, because you're going to have to if you want to make it you're going to have to make it you got to make something or you're really just going to be a Starbucks or somewhere, huh,

Alex Ferrari 1:04:17
yeah, we've all been in LA for those who don't live in LA. If you go to any Starbucks anywhere in Los Angeles at any time of day. There is someone writing a screenplay. I think they I think Starbucks hires them just to sit there. I don't know. Yeah,

Michael Polish 1:04:32
yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm really surprised. And this just, I'll share with you on this. You can share with me on this idea. Yeah, Starbucks should probably start naming coffees at a writer at writers expenses. You know, things like this. Like, this is the final draft cup.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:51
This is this is the Charlie Kaufman cup. Yeah, this

Michael Polish 1:04:54
is Charlie Kaufman could have a have a have a cup of Charlie have a cup of coffee. Yeah, you know,

Alex Ferrari 1:05:03
have a cup of tea. Have writers sponsor you can there? Oh, that's brilliant. Only in LA though. No, no, it has to be la based only absolutely you couldn't go anywhere. But like it but but then basically in San Francisco then you could do tech startups like this Steve Jobs.

Michael Polish 1:05:20
Yeah. I think it would work. I think we would work. I mean, we're always looking at other businesses right now.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:27
Of course, it's just a case this filmmaking thing doesn't work out. Now, a quick question about film and digital, you've shot both. Where's your heart? And where do you shoot mostly nowadays,

Michael Polish 1:05:39
I've been my last feature was on the Alexa which I found, you know, beautifully fast and slow and has a lot of a lot of the light love, light love. And it's just as, just as they've done a really good job with the Alexa, I shot four features on the red, and the epic did Big Sur on the red in for the epic. And it was, it was a beast, it was great. It took it was it has really, really great things about it. I shot I first woke, Twin Falls was 35 millimeter jackpot was digital. And northfork was was was filming. I found that you know, the story should dictate what you want to see. But now that digital is where it's at. And there's no reason why you shouldn't be doing it. I was sitting with Irwin Winkler last or a couple weeks ago. And who was just finishing Martin Scorsese's movie, he said to me,

Alex Ferrari 1:06:41
oh, you're the ones coming out this silence number thing? It's Yeah, yeah. He said, Is that the one with the De Niro and the capreol together? I'm not

Michael Polish 1:06:50
sure but it was it was shot in in Asia and film I'm assuming Yeah. And he goes you know Marty shot someone film and someone digital and I'm not quite sure why he wanted to do why he wanted to do digital Dom or why do you want to use vi he goes hell I don't know why I do it and then when we show it to him he can't tell the difference right now anyway, so I don't know what we're doing. And I just I laugh because you know you have a legend like you have the you have a legend like that. Who speaks to in about another legend? And it feels as common as this conversation if you're if you're in the room to listen to it. They're talking about the same thing we're talking about. And they're having just as much fun and jokes about it and and yet, it's a common thing to talk about this world being digital and film and some holding on to this romantic part is you look at the book film the emotion process, it's just it's a beautiful thing and

Alex Ferrari 1:07:57
it's man it's really magical. I mean, I I've shot 35 shot 16 I shot eight. And isn't there is something magical about celluloid and there's a lot of filmmakers who are fighting very hard to keep it I mean Star Wars was shot 35 and it's actually making a slight comeback now I've actually seen I'm working on I own a post house as well. And I'm working on a film right now that was shot on Super 16 independently you know they shot it because they wanted to get that look like the wrestler had the look and Black Swan Those were all shot Super 16 but it's starting to come back and it's funny that I was talking to a couple buddies of mine over at the ASC and they're like we can't find anybody to load mags like there's just there's no the generation that is coming up has no understanding about loading a mag or film or and it's like it's I'm like really like

Michael Polish 1:08:53
they're at the ACS are just it's it's just the either moving nothing's really moving sideways it's just moving vertical and everything's going up and you know the when you had that film bag and you had the guy sticking his arms in mode scary you know and yeah and then they would say you know, check the gate which was a term which they still sometimes say just as a joke, you know, let's check the gate or

Alex Ferrari 1:09:21
for those who don't know what that term means, it means to check the gate to make sure that it wasn't a hair that got caught in the frame because sometimes you can shoot three or four takes and if there's a hair in the gate, forget about it. We got to reshoot and all those tapes are gone now digitally you can fix that if you if there was a major issue but it's it's interesting. I don't know if I'm maybe I'll shoot film again one day, but I do love the speed of digital and the quality of digital to be honest with you. The Alexa is a gorgeous camera and I've shot a lot of red too.

Michael Polish 1:09:50
Yeah, you know, once these film historians that have fallen in love with film, they do you know, end up taking the negative and digitizing it and Working in post and manipulating they're not truly taking it to a chemical situation in that unless you're going to release it but they don't do an inner negative or an inner positive that's all gone It's so there's a the actual shooting part I understand but right after it gets gets to the laboratory it goes back to what we're doing

Alex Ferrari 1:10:19
it's done yeah it's just it's just a recording medium now it's not a full circle. I mean you remember when di was the big thing with Oh brother where art though? Yeah, like now it's every single movie has to go through di Yeah. before and I tried to explain to people sometimes there was a chemical like how do they call her before I'm like well the DP went into the lab

Michael Polish 1:10:43
Did you and you're dealing with bats and you're dealing with with you know, three colors or four colors and

Alex Ferrari 1:10:51
more yellow they're a little bit more

Michael Polish 1:10:54
Yeah. When you hit you know the funny thing about North work was it's presumed to look like a black and white movie it mean people look at it and they think it's black and white because you saturated yeah we flashed the negative effect we actually flushed the negative in the camera and then we skip and we skip the bleach that left more silver in the print which would make it darker and so when the lab got it they didn't understand what we do with all the sets were painted black and white and gray and everybody wore black and white gray there was no color to it there's no color for them to see what kind of movie that we were making so when we got it it was all pink it was all pink and when we saw the first one I go there's no color to take off of we don't know we said no this The movie is shot everything in the movies black and white so we can we wanted to make a black and white movie but shooting in color in the studio when you know you couldn't sell a black or white movie so we said why don't we just make the movie in front of the camera all black and white. So we spray painted the grass gray. We took we all the milk bottles, all the ketchup bottles had gray paint in them. If you look every single thing in that movie was attend, we carried a 10 gray color chart on our belts. And so we would say pick number four do the bedspread do number five do the shoes. So every single thing in that movie was was out attendance. One being almost white and 10 being black.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:23
Wow. So you basically color graded in camera, your onset onset?

Michael Polish 1:12:28
Yeah, and so when they filmed we were watching when we would watch it you were looking into black and white movie except for the skin tones at the people you would see a sort of a blush blush but that's all the color that was it?

Alex Ferrari 1:12:41
Yeah, you did. Yeah, we

Michael Polish 1:12:43
shot one of the opening shots is the American flag that we had sown in black and white and the stars are white and the blue is black and the red is gray. And that flag flew over the state of a part of Montana and when you when you photograph it it looks black and white I

Alex Ferrari 1:12:57
mean and for Pete and for people who don't know what bleach bypass is it's the process that Fincher did on seven to get those darks like the blacks just pitch black and then he crunched it there at the deep they did they didn't do di there was no di then he did it all on the lab I think back then. Wow. So one one last one last question before I get to a few I always ask the same last questions to everybody so but one curious question I have Why did you change your name as the director on stay cool and smell of the success?

Michael Polish 1:13:33
Oh, those are those are my my movies that when you know you're in good company just like when you find financing false you when you don't get the cut that you want. When you don't get the cut you want you you take your name off the move

Alex Ferrari 1:13:50
you Alan Smith, he did. Oh, okay, so but you did those two back to back so you had two bad experiences.

Michael Polish 1:13:56
Two weeks? Yeah, it was two was two years of my life that you were two really special movies there were two really special movies and they were expensive to make and hell of

Alex Ferrari 1:14:10
a cast on the both of when we are when we

Michael Polish 1:14:15
sold them both. The minute we finished we sold them. The one premiered at Sundance one per minute Tribeca IFC, IFC Films which one of them both, and there was another company at the same time, both and we had the financier, the production company wanted to hold out for a bigger offer. And I said, you know, the success of these movies is going to be distributed. And so we got in a big debate of is it better to have a movie released or to make the money upfront and never or never seen or have a movie released and be able to be credible to make more movies and this this is a brand new production company and they wanted to they just had different ideas. And and I understand that they had different ideas, but At the end of the day, this this was my, I think it was my sixth or sixth and seventh promotion finance film I hadn't I had a really good understanding of what was going to happen. If they didn't sell fast, they would look like these movies. Were doing well, there was a failure. And it's better to have a perception in Hollywood, since it runs on perception that these films are sold, and they're coming out as opposed to holding on for two years, seeing if you're going to get a better offer. And they said, well, we'll get a better offer if we go in and recut these movies. And I said, Well, yes, you're going to get a better offer, then you go for it. And so I actually, before I room, I remove my name. I watched what they wanted to do. And I said to go ahead, and I watched the movies back, I said, are enough screenings for with that cut? Go for it? We didn't, there wasn't an offer. There was an offer for that for those movies for a year. And then I said, Well, go back to the original card, because you have an offer on these movies. And because I you know, because we proved to be right. It wasn't right to be proved wrong. You know, it wasn't till we. And so they sell in the movies and released and for. I mean, it was one of those tragedies and films that we've seen with other filmmakers, too. But

Alex Ferrari 1:16:17
But let me ask you, though, at the level you were at when you made these two movies, wouldn't you? And I'm assuming the budgets. I mean, they weren't like $100 million, or $20 million movies. Wouldn't you get Final Cut or wound? negotiate? final call? Yeah,

Michael Polish 1:16:32
we negotiated Final Cut, but but it's when you're dealing with attorneys that can sue you for sitting on a park bench for doing nothing. You know, you have you can start picking fights and what their idea was what they claimed was yet Final Cut. If it's sold, and they didn't want to make it, meaning they didn't if they didn't accept the deal, it didn't sell.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:57
So that was that was their loophole. The loophole

Michael Polish 1:16:59
was you have Final Cut. And yeah, you have a deal and we could sell it so you keep final crap. But if we don't sell it, it's not selling so we're going to cut it. So it was one of those fighting, you know, disasters that you walk into saying, Yeah, Final Cut, but if it doesn't, so obviously there was a problem. But and

Alex Ferrari 1:17:15
you did not one because normally you hear that story with one movie, but yeah, two. Yeah,

Michael Polish 1:17:19
it was two years of just taking it on the chin. I mean, taking it everywhere. Actually.

Alex Ferrari 1:17:27
I understand what you mean, sir. Well, with that said, Can you talk a little bit about your latest film hotpot, which I hear?

Michael Polish 1:17:34
Yeah. We made right after Big Sur. And it was a screenplay that we had it for a while. And it was, it was sort of a homage to Weird Science. And it was to be a small million dollar feature that we were going to go shoot and really have a lot of fun. And if we did, we had a lot of fun with that movie because it was just too goofy teenagers getting a sex robot way before it was halfway before the Scarlett Johansen robot came out yesterday, you know, way before it was years ago. I mean, we did this three years ago. And it was it was fine. It almost it didn't run the same risk as as the two moves are speaking just about it. What happened was we decided to what they wanted to get a true theatrical, and it was going to be a day on date movie. And so they just waited for that perfect timing went on and went on and went on. I don't think the distributor was happy with how they were going to release and what they're going to put in. So there's a lot of turmoil about how you were going to release a movie like that. However, having said that, it wasn't that kind of, it wasn't the same experience. It's the movies is the movie and it came out. I think it came out a little late. I mean, actually came out way late. But then that's a type of movie that can stick around and it doesn't have it somebody will always discover it. So I didn't have I didn't have too much precious feelings about it was it was a fun exercise was fun to shoot. And the kids and it was

Alex Ferrari 1:19:07
a lot of fun. Yeah, it looked like it from the trailer looks like a lot of good. Yeah. So what? What final advice, can you give young filmmakers venturing out on their first feature film,

Michael Polish 1:19:18
make decisions? And that you can ultimately correct because if you don't make a decision, you're just going to be like most everybody looking? What do I want to do how I want to do it? You know, I believe a director is for a better word is mainly a coach, not so much. They have to keep the stamina of everybody going. And especially independent films are based on relationships, not so much money. Although money starts and stops your production. What keeps it going are the days you don't have money. So you really have to be the person behind that builds that relationship with that crew that allows them to give you what you need, and get everybody to do the exact same thing. At Exact same time and you call action. And that is somewhat of being a coach in that term as a football analogy to get all those different personalities together on the line to say hi, that's pretty brilliant. to not move. Everybody stands still until I say, I mean that, to me is like moviemaking, to get all these people just to shut up. Stop.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:23
Yep, you know, you're absolutely right. It's like

Michael Polish 1:20:28
you are, it's the best position to be in and the worst position to be at the same time because it's controlled chaos.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:34
Everybody wants to be in that position, but very few people know what to do once they get there.

Michael Polish 1:20:40
And then thrive under those conditions. Because day one to day 30. You spent everything you've got inside and out, and you've got to act like it was day one.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:50
I was gonna ask you real quick with that. With that being said, the whole mumble core Mark duplessis. Jo, swans were kind of films. What are your what's your vibe on those? What do you What's your opinion on those kind of films that just got filmmakers that just go out with whatever camera they have. And it remarked upon Mark duplass. She's,

Michael Polish 1:21:09
she's is. I mean, I love that kid. I mean, I call him I love him to death just because we've we've run we've crossed paths so many times in our careers. And we're not that unsimilar about the way we've done our movies, and we will finance it, he is consistently going down the path that I kind of go back and forth with meaning I've done higher films and lower films, but and I do quite different genres back to back. But Mark has just been somebody I've always admired and I have a good relationship with and you know, there's nothing bad I can say about somebody who's actually kicking butt all the time, and his wife to his wife is tremendous.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:47
And his brother is now killing it on. Trans is a trans America. Oh, yeah. transparent, transparent. Amazon show as an actor now as well. Yeah. Jay. Jay. Yeah. Jay, as well. It's Did you like when you saw puffy chair, obviously, yeah. It's like I watched puffy chair and I'm just like, cuz you're, you're taught in film school, that everything needs to look like, perfect. You have to know the production value. You have to do this and that. And these guys just grabbed a camcorder. And when I shot a movie, yeah, they don't care about sound. They didn't care about anything. But the story was good.

Michael Polish 1:22:26
Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's, that's the fabric of a good movie. It's just getting that story down. And you know, executions always gonna be judged. Even when you make something that's beautiful. Look how people say I still didn't like the way that though Did you like they, they really spent time doing that. And there's people that say, I don't spend time I just want to make I want to see the acting and the story. And people say I didn't like the way it looked. But God that was a funny movie, or that was a really well acting movie. And I think the look of a movie has a free pass at this story is great.

Alex Ferrari 1:22:59
I think I mean, I actually have a podcast coming out. I are just by this time this airs that already had come out about basically telling filmmakers, like, no one cares what you shot your movie on. And a lot of people like oh, I shot it on the red or I shot it on the Lexan like, you could shoot it on your iPhone. Or is your story good? Yeah, that's what matters is is the story. Good? You're absolutely right. I think you do get a pass visually. And even auto audio is what if you've got a good story and those are so rare, aren't they?

Michael Polish 1:23:30
They're really they're rare. I'm I'm working on a picture right now. Where they're in the writing is fantastic. I'm working on speed the cloud with David Mamet. Play that up adapting to a movie,

Alex Ferrari 1:23:42
he's done, okay? He's he bites, okay. Oh, you see, you

Michael Polish 1:23:45
see what he's, you see his words and you go. What's wonderful about David is he's just say his words. You don't have to do anything. Just let them come out of your mouth, and you are there. And that's remarkable. With David's work, ma'am. It just has the ability to you don't have to put any touches on his words. You don't have to bring them up down, polish them, whatever you want you to Sam and they are in Mamet. You're Mamet no

Alex Ferrari 1:24:09
matter. Exactly like like a Tarantino, like your Tarantino. Yeah, it's like there's that voice. It's so crisp, and clear. And and it's non. You can't confuse it.

Michael Polish 1:24:19
Yeah, it's great writers have that tactic like care about when I did Big Sur you it was a definitely Kerouac piece because of the way he he was a language. It was language. He was able to spend language in a way that was unique at the time. And it was a train of thought that was recorded that was unique for a generation, which, you know, probably other bloggers have. Did they do the same thing?

Alex Ferrari 1:24:46
Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I want to I want to leave you with the last few questions I have to ask all of my all of these are the toughest questions. So I ask all of my guests this

Michael Polish 1:24:55
is there. If they're not time, then it's

Alex Ferrari 1:24:57
not time at all. What Is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Michael Polish 1:25:04
Well, I don't know if this this this the lesson that took me the longest to learn was Don't be so fucking precious.

Alex Ferrari 1:25:14
Oh man, that is a lesson most filmmakers need to learn in a big way. Yeah, don't be so precious about because that preciousness is what has you Hawking that same script since 1995.

Michael Polish 1:25:25
Yeah. And it will, it will, it'll kill you. It'll kill the spirit. It'll kill your spirit. It'll kill your wife spirit. It'll kill your kids spirit. It'll kill your dog spirit, because you're going to start defending a piece of art, just to defend whether it's right or you're going to start defending it and make choices based on that that's probably might not make some happen or make the film not that great.

Alex Ferrari 1:25:47
That's a great lesson to learn. And oh my god, if most filmmakers coming out of school, or are just starting out would learn that lesson, man. Got it? I mean, I've had so many. I mean, I've I've been in post for about 20 years. So I've had so many filmmakers walk through my doors and my God. You know, you never know a filmmaker or human being more than you do when you're in a dark room with them for eight hours, 10 hours at a time for

Michael Polish 1:26:14
For you to chat. It's, you know, these families that we create are the traveling circus families of today, and it's just different personalities for months on end. And Yep, you don't see him for two years, and then you're back in bed with them again. It's it's hard.

Alex Ferrari 1:26:29
Yeah. It's carnies. It's it's something that people don't understand. Like we are kind of like carnies in that sense, because you do you like, and it's weird what you make such intense relationships, being a director of being a filmmaker, with your crew, that you literally can not see them for five years. And then, hey, you want to come back to work with me? And the second you see them? It's like, not a day is gone.

Michael Polish 1:26:50
Yeah. And you, you've seen, you talk to your crew, you see your crew way more than you've seen your family. For the rest of your life, he spent 18 hours a day with most of these brothers and sisters. Yeah, it's intense. And it's a great bond when it works really, really well. And then you don't have to see him for two years, because he spent more time than those two years apart in one

Alex Ferrari 1:27:16
And one, three, and one two month period or something like so. And then what are three of your favorite films of all time, when in no particular order?

Michael Polish 1:27:25
Maybe not all the favorites. The influential ones, the ones I remember, I would say seeing what's more time in America was a film that influenced me because it wasn't the godfathers it wasn't. It was the Jewish mafia and how it was, it was wonderful to watch James Woods and Rob Robertson near a very young ages. duel it out on on this movie was just beautiful to watch. It was authentic. Yeah, and that was just his foray. Yeah, in America and and it just taught me a lot about music and cinematography. And why I felt and why you know, actually why didn't understand the movie, why didn't understand what what was the depth of it that I didn't get in this room? And what was the symbolism, the religious symbolism all throughout the film, and where was he coming from? And I think that was one of those movies, I look back on going, Wow, that was something night. And they're all childhood films in a way because we're so impressionable, and I'm pressing Close Encounters of the Third Kind was one of those films, which was just a stroke of genius to have the suspense that he built around these. These, these foreigners that we call aliens, and how they would come in and out in the world and be in our daily lives and, and attach ourselves to that, to that was, was wonderful to watch as a kid was just one. I mean, you watch jaws still holds up. Yeah, I would say those two on the same feeling. Same I was, I would say I could interchange those all the time. And then I know, the third one hasn't been made yet. Oh, wow.

Alex Ferrari 1:29:14
Very great answer. I like that answer. It's still coming. It's still coming online. Yeah. So where can people find you on Michael?

Michael Polish 1:29:23
in Montana?

Alex Ferrari 1:29:27
Online, sir. Oh, yeah, our website. I didn't I wasn't asking for your home address.

Michael Polish 1:29:35
It's a big it's a big state.

Alex Ferrari 1:29:37
It is a big state. And it's there's more cows than people though.

Michael Polish 1:29:40
Oh, yeah. They're definitely more are still under a million people in that state. Yeah, it was I'm thinking a lot about say because Merle Haggard passed away this morning. And, and in. He had a great song called Big City and it was about leaving everything behind and being dumped off in Montana. So You know, my blessings to him and his family because he was such a great iconic You know, he had something like 79 Top 10 hits in the top 10 or 73 I think of us 73 Top 10 hits.

Alex Ferrari 1:30:16
Yeah, that's ridiculous. That's more than Lady Gaga. I'm joking.

Michael Polish 1:30:18
I know. I mean, who all she want to do is have a duet with him right? But yeah, it's like you can find me on Twitter it's a pain on my face on my Instagram the same name as Twitter. Michael dash polish. Yeah, yeah. Michael. underscore. Yeah, Wonder Miko underscore polish is usually both of them. is you can find them on both, or Yeah, I think they're both.

Alex Ferrari 1:30:46
And do you have a website at all or no?

Michael Polish 1:30:49
No. I have your website. Now. You can find me.

Alex Ferrari 1:30:51
You can find them on indie film hustle. Which will now live will live all now that's that's your calling card now like, I don't know it just got any full muscle look my name up all my contact informations there.

Michael Polish 1:31:03
He's right there right in the corner anybody? anybody's looking for microphones? Just have that arrow.

Alex Ferrari 1:31:12
Michael man, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you, man. Thanks, man. Really, really, thank you so much.

Michael Polish 1:31:16
Keep up the good work. And you're you're doing a good job for the community.

Alex Ferrari 1:31:20
I appreciate it, man. Hope you guys picked up some knowledge on that one man, I was asked I hope you guys appreciate I was asking him all those questions. I was really grilling him about all the technical stuff goes. And even some of the business stuff, because I was really curious to see how he was able to do everything you did on for lovers only. So if you guys haven't had a chance to check that out, I'm going to put a link to not only that, but a bunch of his other movies, as well as his amazing book, the declaration of independent filmmaking, which I've since read, and it is a really, really, really good book for independent filmmakers. It's a great, I would rank it up there with Rebel Without a crew, Robert Rodriguez book, which I'll also put the links in the show notes. Because it was a really great book and really shows you a passionate group of filmmakers trying to make their movies and they throw a lot of lessons out about how it really is and what you need to do to make a movie. So definitely check that out. The show notes are of course at indiefilmhustle.com/069. So once again, thank you, Michael polish, for being on the show. You are an inspiration. Thank you for showing us that we can do it. No matter what just a good story, a camera, and a dream. And you can go make something happen. As always guys, head over to filmmakingpodcast.com filmmakingpodcast.com and leave us a good review for the show. It really helps us out a lot. And I've been getting a lot of notes, emails, letters from the tribe, and of encouragement of thank yous of, you know, the how much the show means to them, and how much the website means to you guys. And I really meant from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for being loyal listeners of the show. And it really humbles me every time I get these letters and these emails, so please keep them coming. It keeps me going. You know, it really does keep me going and I do have a bunch of stuff. I'm working on some exciting stuff that I'm going to be bringing you guys in the next coming weeks. I am working heavily in the lab, as they say to to bring out some very cool stuff and I'm going to be doing some very experimental stuff moving forward in the feature film world coming up soon so I will keep you guys abreast of that as it comes goes forward. So as always guys, thank you very very much for being just being you guys. Thanks guys so much. Keep that hustle going keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 068: Do You Need a Movie Star to Sell Your Indie Film?

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Being in post-production for over 20 years, many films have walked through my doors. Some with huge movie stars that go nowhere and others with no stars that win Sundance.

The question is do you really need a movie star in your independent film to be able to sell it? The answer is yes…and no. I lay out specifics on when and if you need star power in your film and I discuss what the new definition of star power is today.

The times they are a-changing my indie film hustlers and if you don’t change with them you’ll be left behind. Take a listen and let me know what you thin in the comments below.

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
So my hustlers today, the question on the table is, do I need a movie star in my film, to make money or to have a successful film? Now I got that question from a indie film, hustler tribe member His name is Robert. And the question really is a little bit of a double edged sword because yes and no, the quite the answer to the question is yes and no. So this is the way it works with bringing named talent into a feature film, or to a project, a feature project, or short project or whatever kind of projects you're doing. There are just endless lists of movies that had no stars in it. That made a ton of money. And people like, Look, you don't need a star to make a movie to make a movie successful and to make money with it. And yes, if the story is amazing, and you get a lot of festival credibility, and you get a bunch of people behind you, and it's something really, really cool, then yes, you don't need a movie star to make it happen. Now, it's also depending on genre, if you're if you're doing a horror movie, talent, debt is not absolutely necessary, the genre is selling itself. Same thing with action, though action does benefit from a star too. But action is a genre that travels very, very well. internationally. So it doesn't need a star. But a star definitely helps. Hoare is definitely a genre that doesn't need star power. But anytime you can bring star power on, it's beneficial. And I'll explain why. If you bring a star on any type of star, and I'm not talking about big, big monster stars that you can't afford for your movie, but even if it's a television star, a comedian, a, you know, a character actor who has been in a ton of stuff, but they're not like movie star material. They're just good actors with really with, you know, resumes of working on big movies, these is always a beneficial thing. Anytime you can put faces in the camera that people can recognize, it's a beneficial thing. Why? Because when you do that, you're leveraging their popularity, their recognizability to your film. So let's just put it this way. There's a movie that I worked on a few years ago, that was a little sci fi action movie. And originally, they had no stars in it whatsoever. None. And they went they we did it, we edited it, we posted it, everything was done. They went out to the marketplace and tried to sell it. And guess what happened? Nothing. No one bought it. Nobody was interested at all. So what the producers did, very, very smartly. They went out, they hired a couple of actors, name actors that brought some money with them meaning money, meaning that if they were in the movie, they could sell the movie, shot a day or two of them replaced some old of some of the other actors with some of these key scenes, added these actors in and all of a sudden, guess what happened magically they sold their movie. So it does benefit having an act I mean, having a name actor or some sort of movie star or face that people recognize. So and believe it or not, guys, you know, getting some of these movie stars out there to come in for your movie. It's not that expensive. You know, I'm not going to quote quotes because I do know some quotes for some of the some of the stars, but I don't want to say them publicly. But if you'd be surprised if you approach certain actors that that want to do work, they just want to work and they're actors who have names and have credibility and help with distribution. You'd be surprised at how affordable some of these actors are. So if you have have a movie and you feel that you need to get an actor or want to get an actor Go for it, just ask them you know, obviously if they're big movie stars, making million $2 million, a movie, you know, and it's your first feature film, probably not going to happen, guys. But don't be embarrassed. Don't be afraid to just approach people to see if they're interested in working with you in your story. Now, obviously a lot of times actors big movie stars like to work with independent filmmakers. To be able to play more to express themselves more as actors not to be confined so much by the studio system, and they'll come on board and work for scale sometimes or very affordably just to be, you know, if they are if they feel that this project, or the material is something that they really gravitate to, and they can really do something with. So you've never know who you're going to be able to get in your movies, I've heard crazy stories of people who will come on the show, and they'll just work for either scale free, or very minimal money, just to be a part of the project. So that does happen, guys. Now, on the other end of the spectrum, do you need a movie star to make a movie to make a successful movie? Absolutely not. It helps dramatically. Don't get me wrong, anytime. Like I said, you put someone in front of the screen that people recognize and distributors recognize is a good thing. But if you're making a movie for $5,000. And believe it or not, there are a lot of movies being made for 510 15 2025 $30,000. a feature film that is non genre based, let's say it's a drama, or a comedy or drama, or a little indie film that has that kind of personal touch to it. No, you don't absolutely need a big star or movie star in that movie. But the thing is that the cost, the budget of that movie is low enough that if you've done your job, right, as a filmmaker slash entrepreneur and build up your audience, and you're able to sell it, and you have a selling a marketing plan, and a distribution plan, either self distribution, or traditional distribution, making your money back on a $30,000 movie is not impossible, if done correctly, no matter what the genre is, as long as you can have an audience that they sell it to and know how to reach that audience. Yes, absolutely, you do not need an actor there. Now, if the budgets are going to 100,000 200,000, half a million, there's a lot more responsibility on you as a filmmaker, and unless you're financing yourself and money is no object, and you do need to recoup that money for your investors, then you have to or definitely, I strongly suggest you put in actors who have some sort of guarantee, and they're kind of like an insurance policy for investors. investors were like, Look, I'm gonna let you make your movie, you could do whatever you want with your movie, you have Final Cut of your movie, but you know what? I've got final say on who you cast. Because depending on who you cast is, what kind of insurance policy I will have to get my money back as an investor. So if your movie completely sucks, but has a star b star C star in it, that have a following already to them, and they automatically get distribution because of who they are. Guess what the investor says, Well, at least I can get my money back if the movie sucks. So to review, do you need a movie star? It always helps Do you need actors, TV stars, someone that can help you get some credibility to your movie? always helps. It always helps. But do you absolutely need it? No, it all depends on the kind of movie you're trying to make, kind of return you're expecting to make and the budget of that film. So I hope that answered your question guys. And by the way, if you want to ask other questions, head over to indie film, hustle, calm Ford slash Facebook. And that will take you directly to our private Facebook group that we talk about everything and everything is a place where all the tribe members come to talk. So sign up. Now prove you guys indie film hustle.com for slash Facebook. And if you want the show notes for the show, head over to indie film, hustle, calm Ford slash zero 68 please don't forget to head over to filmmaking podcast calm and leave us an honest review of the show. It really helps us out a lot. So as always, keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 067: Film Festival Secrets – How to Crack the Festival Code

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Submitting to film festivals is torture. Did I get in? Did the programmer watch it yet? When will I know? How much to submit? You wait by your email to see if Sundance or SXSW accepted you? Wouldn’t it be amazing if you had some insight into the film festival process? Maybe even some Film Festival Secrets?

On the show today I have one of the leading authorities on film festivals, Chris Holland from Film Festival Secrets.com. The man literally wrote the book on the subject, Film Festival Secrets: A Handbook For Independent Filmmakers.

Chris decodes the mystery that is film festival submissions and drops some knowledge bombs on us. Now if you are a listener of the show you also know that Chris and I created a one of a kind course on Film Festivals called Film Festival Hacks: Submit Like a Pro Course but what you may not know is we also created a FREE Podcast Series called the Film Festival Hacks Podcast. We should be launching that podcast in a couple of weeks.

It’ll be packed with info on the inner workings of film festivals, submission strategies and more. So check back here and I’ll put a link up when the show goes live! Until then enjoy my conversation with Chris Holland.

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Alex Ferrari 1:11
In this episode of our film festivals we have the leading authority on film festivals, the man who literally wrote the book on it, his name is Chris Holland. We've talked about him before. He's my co instructor on the film festival hacks course. He runs an amazing website called Film Festival secrets calm. Chris has been in the film festival game for over a decade now. And he created Film Festival secrets to kind of help other filmmakers and understand the process because it was kind of like a mystery. And he had seen all the behind the scenes stuff of how film festivals work. These work that's a major film festivals around the country, and really has an insight that was rare, and decided to write the book literally the book on a call Film Festival secrets. And later he opened up Film Festival secrets.com to help and consult filmmakers on their films how to submit to properly to film festivals, what festivals to submit to and so on. So wanted to bring them on the show and really kind of break down and get some inside information on what it really takes to get into film festivals and how to use film festivals for what they're what they're worth and what they can do for you and leverage them and not to be taken advantage by the process and not to throw money away. Because I've been in over 600 Film Festivals with all my projects over the years. And believe me I've lost 1000s of dollars in submission processes and traveling to festivals and things like that. And you know Chris really talks a lot about what to do how to be strategic with your money, how to be strategic with your time and make it work for you guys so without further ado, here is my interview with Chris Holland. May I introduce to our indie film hustlers the man the myth the legend Chris Holland. Thank you sir.

Chris Holland 2:54
You say that to all boys don't you?

Alex Ferrari 2:56
I say that to everyone sir. But but but with you. I say it's special.

Chris Holland 3:01
I feel duly special. How are you man?

Alex Ferrari 3:05
I'm doing great. Talk to you. I've been trying to get Chris on the show for God months now. We've been friends for a while and we're like, I can't get you on the show. Gotta get you on the show Got Game Show. We just never would never get around to it. Though. We talk all the time. We just never got around to it. So we finally set a time and I wanted to share all of Chris's amazing film festival knowledge with the with the tribe. So my first question, Chris, is how did you get into the film festival game?

Chris Holland 3:33
Uh, well, back in the dark days of the early internet, let's say 96' 97'.

Alex Ferrari 3:40
Rough times rough.

Chris Holland 3:44
I was a film critic, one of the very first what would later become bloggers. I want to tell you how special this was Alex, it was so special that it I think it was 99 my co writer and I actually got written up in the New York Times for reviewing Godzilla movies on the internet. I kid you not

Alex Ferrari 4:06
You got to be kidding. So there literally was nobody doing this.

Chris Holland 4:10
It was a brand new thing. Guys who review weird movies on the internet that is worthy of a New York Times article. It's framed on my office wall. Brilliant. Yeah. Anyway, but as time went on, you know, we thought man, we're gonna make some money on this internet film criticism stuff. No. When it became apparent that everybody in his dog was going to be reviewing movies on the internet. You know, I looked around for something else. And that's something else. Very soon became film festivals. Not that there's a ton of money in film festivals. But I eventually fell in with a distributor that was doing very interesting things that included film festivals in a big way. So I got to know two or 300 different Film Festival directors and You know, the rest is history I worked for. I worked on staff at four film festivals now. Austin, Atlanta, Oxford, and Portland. And you know, it's been a great ride.

Alex Ferrari 5:12
Nice to say. So, um, are the magic of our festivals even relevant nowadays, like for filmmakers to submit? Because I mean, in the world that we are today, like I know, before, it was the only way to kind of get noticed. But now with all the stuff that happens online, is it even relevant?

Chris Holland 5:28
Oh, I think, you know, this is a question that gets asked about once a year at somebody's conference or whatever, or in a blog or festivals still a thing? Yeah, of course they are. Of course, film festivals are still a thing. Sundance just made its largest ever, you know, now that they sold the film, but the film is sold during the festival.

Alex Ferrari 5:48
17.5 million.

Chris Holland 5:51
Yeah. So just because new doors open in the world of indie film doesn't mean that the old ones disappear. If anything, festivals are more relevant, because they're the only ones who are willing to go through the 1000s of movies that get made every year to find the good stuff. And let me tell you, there's more and more of these films being made every year. Submission rates go up and up and up. Every Film Festival everywhere touts its, you know, record breaking number of submissions every year. It's not like they're doing anything to earn that film right? coming to them. Right. So next time you hear a festival go, we had a record breaking 5000 films this year, you know, recognize that's a big number, but it just is the rising tide lifting all the boats, somebody's got to go through all those films. Somebody's got to figure out what what the good is and what the bad is. And I don't see the distributors looking to do that, you know, that's a labor of love. festivals are the ones who who have that love.

Alex Ferrari 6:51
Are there. Is there any money to be made at film festivals? Like I know, obviously Sundance in Toronto and the big boys but like, you know, Moose Jaw Film Festival somewhere in the middle of the country? Is it? Are they making money? Like how what's the what's the financial scenario with money with festivals?

Chris Holland 7:07
If you're talking about the festivals themselves, yes, there are many festivals that are run as nonprofits, most of them are run as nonprofits, okay, that doesn't mean that there is no profit involved. But very often the kind of people that you get who start a film festival, you know, to them nonprofit means so long as they break even there. Okay. So there's, you know, a lot of festivals are on the edge, a lot of them shut down in 2008 910. You know, when sponsorship money dried up, there are festivals that do very well, that are run smartly. and South by Southwest is a for profit endeavor.

Alex Ferrari 7:44
That's a monster.

Chris Holland 7:45
Yeah. there's money to be made. But you have to look at it as a business. When it comes to, is there money for filmmakers at festivals? Probably no, generally not. Generally, it is a way to get other benefits, which we can talk about later on. But, you know, with a few exceptions, you know, either niche content or films that are so you know, upper level that they already have distribution. There's no money changing hands between festivals and filmmakers,

Alex Ferrari 8:22
Generally, but there are prizes and things like that sometimes,

Chris Holland 8:25
Sure. But I wouldn't that's that's not a business model. Right? That's

Alex Ferrari 8:30
The business model for a filmmaker like, I'm going to make him submit and it's $10,000 at first price. So obviously, I'm going to get that right. That's more of a lottery ticket mentality. So so you just got back from South by Southwest? I've never been to the South by Southwest Film Festival. I've been to many other ones. I've never been to that one. Can you tell the audience a little bit of what you saw there this year, and how things have changed since last time you were there? And any any good gossip?

Chris Holland 9:01
Any good guys. Number Number one, Austin is changing. You know, for those who may have been there in the past, but haven't been a few years. Austin itself is almost unrecognizable. And I think that is a direct impact that South by Southwest has South by Southwest, you know, brought all of these creative and technically inclined people to Austin, who figured out how cool it was started moving there started starting companies there which brought the bigger tech companies who Facebook Google, you know, they brought their offices to Austin. And so now there's all of this technology industry, you know, building up there and they need offices, they need housing, but in a more direct way. There are more hotels and conference spaces in theaters in Austin than ever before. So they are quite literally changing the face of what Austin looks like from a festival perspective. You know, it's much the same as it was with the exception of sort of this sprawl of venues, they've opened satellite venues, they've colonized some live theater spaces. So it's actually a lot harder to get it a lot harder, it's harder to get a diverse sampling of things that you want to see because like films tend to get programmed at like venues. So tentpole features are going to play at the Paramount or a larger venue like that, and smaller indie films are going to play it's at smaller venues like the Alamo, Ritz. And then shorts, for some reason, all got, you know, sort of,

Alex Ferrari 10:43
In the bathroom,

Chris Holland 10:45
Well no not in the bathroom, and they had decent sized spaces, because there are lots of filmmakers who show up for those, right, they're all traveling in from out of town and those who are local or bring like, so they need space, but they're not getting the cherry downtown spaces that they could be. And that's it. They're not being exiled or anything, but they are, you know, it's get on a shuttle kind of thing. And so if you're going to do that, you want to spend as little time as possible sitting on a bus traveling between you want to be doing stuff, right. So if you're going to see short films, it makes a lot more sense to just spend a day at the venue where the shorts are being played, and watch a bunch of them. Got it. So the changes to South by Southwest that I see are logistical. And maybe that's just like, my brain like that's what I'm looking for. But artistically, I think they are as adventurous as they ever were. They're getting better and bigger sort of premiere type things like they had PBS big holiday. And you know, all they had that midnight Keanu screening. So there's more demand and more stuff. They're trying to stuff in the same amount of time. But it's still got that South by Southwest flavor.

Alex Ferrari 11:59
So it seems like South and again, this might be a horrible analogy, but it seems like it's it's a Sundance meets Comic Con because it's so big in scope. No, obviously not comic book stuff. But studios are starting to come in there. And there's and it's not just a film festival. It's a music festival. And it's also a technology festival. Correct.

Chris Holland 12:16
Right. So the three different sections of South by Southwest are music, which was its primary purpose from the beginning, film and interactive, Thurman interactive begin on the Friday of the first weekend. And film continues basically through the following week. I don't think it plays into the next weekend. But I could be wrong about that. And then interactive is only four or five days long. That takes place over that first weekend into like the that Tuesday. And then music starts up on Wednesday of the middle of that weekend plays through the following weekend. So it's actually these three things all taking place at once. Some of the film and interactive things overlap in terms of programming, like their panels that you can go to. If you have a film badge, there are films you can go to if you have an interactive badge, and then you know music and film also overlap in certain places. So there's a lot to get out of it.

Alex Ferrari 13:20
Sounds exhausting.

Chris Holland 13:21
It is exhausting. I was only there for five days and basically needed another week to get over it.

Alex Ferrari 13:27
Like Sundance is exactly like Sunday.

Chris Holland 13:31
Without the 12 pounds of additional clothing that you need to wear.

Alex Ferrari 13:34
Yes In the end, you can't breathe because you're at 5000 feet or over high you are

Chris Holland 13:41
but it has its own challenges for sure.

Alex Ferrari 13:43
What is your favorite film festival you've been at? Like that you absolutely just love the vibe and love the whole thing.

Chris Holland 13:49
As an attendee, the first five years of Fantastic Fest were my favorite film festival experience ever. I have not been since then. I think it's probably been five or six years since I've been to a Fantastic Fest and that just because of bad scarcity pay and the fact that I don't live in Austin. But when I was living in Austin, it was hands down like it's one of the few festivals where I went every time there was a film playing I was in a theater because the films themselves were so exciting and I wasn't going to chance to see them anywhere else. And man What a great just like film purist environment as an industry member, I mean south by is right up there. And there's so many good ones. I had a really good time in Toronto. I think hotdocs if you're a documentary filmmaker, there are a few few places that are better to be than hotbox and you know what? sidewalk birmingham alabama

Alex Ferrari 14:56
so yeah, heard about the sidewalk. Okay.

Chris Holland 14:59
You have heard me ramble on about the Oxford film festival? Yes, yes. You know there there's some festivals in the deep south, which is where I'm living now Atlanta that are just, you know, top notch in terms of like, small town audience feel they take care of the filmmakers, you know, Oxford and indie Memphis and sidewalk like these are great festivals.

Alex Ferrari 15:22
Awesome. Awesome. Now what are some of the benefits of screening at a film festival nowadays,

Chris Holland 15:27
I would say the three primary benefits these days are the credibility that you get from you know, a festival putting its stamp of approval on your film. The opportunity to build an audience and you thereby get some distribution and the ability to sort of meet your peers and have a career day, meet other people in the industry and then make those connections that will serve you through your future projects.

Alex Ferrari 16:01
It's very true. I've met so many different people at these film festivals. It's it's not even funny. And it's like at Sundance in Toronto and things like that. And I think that sometimes smaller festivals depending on where you are, if you're if it's in your town, then it's very beneficial for you to network. But those bigger festivals you meet people that you might never have access to, especially like a Sundance, when I was living in Florida, I'd go to Sundance and you have la there. La is in a three block radius. Everybody walking the streets is in the business. The access you get is pretty remarkable. Would you agree?

Chris Holland 16:36
Oh yeah, absolutely. No question.

Alex Ferrari 16:38
No. Do you have any advice on how to choose the right Film Festival for filmmakers film?

Chris Holland 16:46
Well, there's a lot of legwork involved for sure. I think you can get a real Head Start by doing two things. Number one, go grab the list of Oscar accredited film festivals printed out and tear it up. Because those festivals you know that list of festivals is so over relied upon by filmmakers, that those festivals even though the Oscar accreditation is only for shorts, feature filmmakers use that list too. And so those those festivals are just overwhelmed with submissions, you are instantly putting yourself at a disadvantage by submitting to an Oscar accredited Film Festival. Anybody who works at an Oscar accredited to film festival like I did twice, both Austin and Atlanta. Who feels offended that that really shouldn't because you're getting so much more than your share of the of the independent films that are made over here. All right. You know, let's give some of the other festivals they're just as good. have just as many people coming to them who treat their filmmakers just as well. You know, let's give this a chance.

Alex Ferrari 17:58
Well, the magic question when you say Oscar accreditation, that's not for features. That's for shorts, right?

Chris Holland 18:03
That's correct. Yeah. No such thing as Oscar accreditation for features

Alex Ferrari 18:07
I've never seen I've never seen the winner of the Austin Film Festival up for best picture at the Oscars.

Chris Holland 18:13
No, I mean, you've seen films, the shorts laid down, of course, like Slumdog Millionaire, Wade,

Alex Ferrari 18:20
Little Miss Sunshine. Yeah. All those kind of films got it. Now, how do you leverage Film Festival screenings to help you get film your film distributed?

Chris Holland 18:30
Uh, there are a couple that are different things you can do, depending on who you are, and what you've got. I mean, number one, if you're playing in a major film festivals festival, and you're a feature, distributors are going to come to you. So that's, I mean, number one sort of mission accomplished right off the bat, you're putting your film in front of distributors. But if you're at a smaller festival, or a festival, where the distributors don't seem to be coming out of the woodwork to find you, I would use that opportunity to start building your audience and start collecting the names and email addresses of the people who are your fans who love your film. There was a film called it was by the Yes, men. Yes. And it was out by Southwest. Yeah. What was the name of that film?

Alex Ferrari 19:21
It was the one that was called the Yes Men, which was a documentary.

Chris Holland 19:25
It was called something like everybody hates the Yes, man. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 19:27
that was a sequel the I only saw the original one. But yeah, there's a sequel to it. Right?

Chris Holland 19:31
So you know, the these guys. It's a couple of performance artists, basically with a team of people around them. They played the sequel at South by Southwest. And this was I want to say six, seven years ago, literally had clipboards with signup sheets and in this 1400 seat, movie palace, they passed around clipboards and pens and got people to you know, sign up. Now that's an activist film where people are, you know, natural. inclined to want to be a part of what they're doing. But that's something you can do at any festival. You know, it's it's extremely difficult as a filmmaker with no existing audience to collect 300 signatures or 300 email addresses in one go on the internet. But at a film festival, well those people are sitting, you know, in the audience, they've just seen your film and are in love with you. It's really easy. So that's the kind of thing that distributors are looking for when you approach them. And you say, I know the names and email addresses of, you know, 2000 people that I've collected over the last year of being on the film festival circuit who are interested in this movie and will tell their friends if you can say that to a distributor your head and shoulders above pretty much anybody else? You know, approaching distributors because they don't think ahead to do that kind of thing.

Alex Ferrari 20:53
Yeah, distributors, I mean, they want as easy of a ride to make their money as possible. And if you can provide them with you know, a three or 4000 person list of people for your film, you're going to get a distribution deal so much faster. That's why a lot of these YouTube stars are creating their own projects and not even going to distributors distributing themselves. Okay, that brings me to a question. Can you talk a little bit about like, screw you know, if your internet if your movies on Vimeo or on YouTube and, you know, gets disqualified from film festivals? I know, that was a big thing when the internet first came out, is that still a thing? And how does that work?

Chris Holland 21:30
It's definitely still a thing. By and large, it's boy Howdy, is it still a thing with Oscar accreditation. So if you have any thoughts at all, you know, as to the future distribution, or no festival play of your film, do not make your film available publicly on YouTube, or Vimeo or any of that stuff until you've done those things. You know, a lot of people will tell you, it doesn't matter. And festivals are taking these things all the time. And it's true. There are a lot of festivals out there that are taking films that are available online. And that's totally cool of those festivals. But there's a lot of festivals that still aren't, and if you you know, unless you want to instantly cut your possible selection of film festivals in half, you know, just hold off on putting it online and and keep control of your assets. Because you don't want your editor or whatever. To mistakenly think that that's an okay thing to do.

Alex Ferrari 22:34
I have a crazy story of of one Sundance filmmaker who got into Sundance had a feature film. And he was in he was in competition. And I think a producer his put it out, it was on Vimeo with password. But he either accidentally or on purpose. pulled off the password for a day or two. And Sundance caught wind of it how I don't know, but they disqualified him and kick them out. And I'm sure that that boys still somewhere in a mental institution. Probably I mean, can you imagine Can you imagine?

Chris Holland 23:10
Oh, I would love to know like the real details behind that. Because you know, for a day or two that seems like something Sundance might forgive. But yeah, without knowing the specifics, you just shake your head and go. That's sucks dude.

Alex Ferrari 23:25
That's so well let me ask you. What are some of the craziest stories? you've you've been to a lot of film festival? What's some of the craziest stories you've ever heard?

Chris Holland 23:33
craziest stories I've ever heard? Well, I mean, some of the craziest stories I've ever seen. You know, filmmakers will do all kinds of things to promote their films sometimes at my urging. Friend of mine had a film called the Stanton family grave robbery. It sounds fantastic guy named Mark Potts, and I'll tell the story, but I want to go back to that title. And just the title is awesome, actually. So as part of the sort of promotion for his film, he and his like three or four cohorts who were at this was at the Austin Film Festival, they bought a coffin and carried it around with them and the coffin had like flyers taped to the side of it. Absolutely. When the screenings were and you know, it was it was it was this it was this Austin Film Fest. Oh, Jesus. And I know they did a couple basically anywhere they could drive to and shove this coffin in the back of the station wagon. They were ridiculous.

Alex Ferrari 24:38
I was gonna ask you where are they? How are they driving this around? Did they rent a hearse?

Chris Holland 24:42
They just had a station wagon Okay, or a hatchback or something it was you know, full size coffin to I'm sure. I've been thinking they might have bought out like a child size but

Alex Ferrari 24:51
Okay, that's just Yeah, I was about to say that's just, that's just wrong. And it

Chris Holland 24:58
didn't work. Yeah. I mean that definitely got attention I still have photos of you know that that surface every once in a while these guys with their stinking coffin and I wanted to go back to the title because titling of a film is something that I think filmmakers overlook as an opportunity to stand out yep it's so many people will name their film you know very generic phrases that sort of seem profound in the moment but actually make your film very difficult to remember much less find on the internet

Alex Ferrari 25:33
like like the tree right? I don't even know if that's a movie or not but the the chair worked and No, that wasn't even the chair what was that movie the fuzzy chair the

Chris Holland 25:43
Oh the Oh yeah, the comfy chair comfy chair. But that was your your puffy

Alex Ferrari 25:48
puffy chairs a better title than just the chair.

Chris Holland 25:50
Right? But yet, these very generic phrases that that's something that Hollywood does, because they are going to carpet bomb the world with advertising and you know the shorter something is the better in that scenario. But in this scenario where you have to be different because you don't have the ability to carpet bomb, whatever it is, then you really want to go with something memorable and I suggest stringing together two or three words that aren't ordinarily paired with one another so you know coffee with milk is not a good example because everybody uses that phrase right?

Alex Ferrari 26:34
Unless Brad Pitt's the star and then you okay,

Chris Holland 26:37
but the Stanton family grave robbery which has you know, a proper name a proper noun right and yeah, what the heck is a family grave robbery I gotta see that or that is attention. Nobody else is using that phrase anywhere on the internet. So yeah, exactly. instantly be able to find that on the internet once once you've got the night yeah, I'm

Alex Ferrari 27:02
actually consulting on a feature film right now. And they came to me they're like, you know, we can't get into festivals and you know what's going on? What can you help us with? And I looked at the movie I was like, well first thing you got to change that title. It was just such a generic title that created no excitement whatsoever. And I'm like, you've got to change that title. And they're like, Oh, well we've done this this this on it already. I'm like, Well, if you want to sell it, you got to change the title. If not, you'll never sell it. So we're working on new titles for it as well. And I worked on a film A Sundance winner called up solidia which was a great title because it's like what is up solidia and the second anyone type that word in there the number one ranking and they actually said that like it was a greatest move we ever did because we control Google for that title. So Exactly. titles are very very very important. Any any crazy like after our stores because I have a few of those after hours on a film festival

Chris Holland 27:59
after it Well, I mean, you want to go to a festival that's got crazy after our stuff going on. Go to some festivals in Texas but like small town, Texas, the Marfa Film Festival was a few years back but Martha's in a town or Marfa is a town in Far West Texas to get there you basically have to fly into Austin and then drive six hours. Do West

Alex Ferrari 28:28
Yeah, Texas is big man.

Chris Holland 28:29
It's really it's a big place. But once you get there the first thing you notice is that there's no traffic noise there's just no city noise of any kind so it's eerily silent. Which of course when you're out in the middle of nowhere with nobody to tell you not to do crazy shit that's you know exactly when crazy, crazy stuff goes on. Right? Right. Especially when you have a bunch of filmmakers and you know festival people from other festivals in Texas who you know have done their events for the year and just kind of want to let go a little bit. You know, that it provides a lot of opportunity for letting your hair down, shall we say and Marfa is a you know, an artist commune. There's a lot of people who have been there for many, many years who have been smoking many, many joints. There's a lot of there's more opportunity when you would think to get into trouble and a town like that. I just love Marfa. Anyway, like their theater is this wonderful little sort of converted, it's a converted bead store. You can't write this stuff. And I have a have a picture maybe I'll send it to you so you can include it in the show notes but it's just this beautiful little wooden see converted feed store but the edge of the feed store is literally 20 feet from the train tracks.

Alex Ferrari 29:57
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Chris Holland 30:08
So you'll be sitting there watching a movie. And then for about five minutes every hour or so you'll hear the train just whizzed by. It's like, not the greatest environment for like, not a, you know, controlled theater environment. But it sort of gives it that character, that bit of authenticity that makes it a very memorable festival to visit.

Alex Ferrari 30:32
So can I tell you can I tell you one of my crazy Sundance stories you obviously want to I have, I have to I am the host of the show, I have to tell you, no, I think you'll get a kick out of it. So back in the back in the day, I don't know if you remember, I'm sure you've been to Sundance a bunch of times, they used to have a lot of big, big house parties up in the hills, like, these big they rent out the mansions and they would just have these crazy house parties. And I don't know if they do it as much now because I think the resident started complaining so I'm not sure if they do as much anymore. But when I was there, me and my buddy, were just like, okay, let's, let's see if we can crash this party, all we would do is crash parties left and right at Sundance, and this one party was up in the middle of the hill, just a monstrous I mean, ridiculous mansion, wooden mansion. You know, like a log cabin there. And you know, there's there's security, there's, you know, there's a line to get into the list to see if you can get in. And I earlier that day had spoken to an agent from CIA. And when I got up to the front, like, Who are you? I'm like, Oh, I'm so and so from CIA. And they're like, we'll go right on insert. right in and all of us and then my buddy who's like, I'm just gonna try to sneak around the back. But I was smart enough to go Wait, let me let me just do this. So he jumped like five fences, broke through a window all the way in to get in and fight and like someone was smoking a joint in the back, or having sex in the back or something. He's like, excuse me, just walked right by. And then we're inside. And there's celebrities everywhere. I mean, all the movie stars of the day where they're and where I'm from. I was in from Florida. It was like my first Sundance, I was so excited. And then five minutes later the cops came because someone pulled the fire alarm. Oh, that's like son of but that was a and then we couldn't and then we couldn't and then we couldn't get a ride back. So we actually jumped into a limo with some celebrities and he was back it's it's a fun festival.

Chris Holland 32:35
That's a rough life you lead there, sir. Well,

Alex Ferrari 32:37
I wish it was like that every day sir. But it's not it's not it's not sir no at the at the indie film, hustle. There's a term we call hustling and we hustled to get into the party and hustled to get down to this town. But that doesn't happen every day. Not every day. Alright, so back to back to back to back to business. What are some of the reasons why films get rejected from film festivals? Because I know a lot of filmmakers are so pained when they're rejected, myself included. So what are some of the main reasons that they reject them?

Chris Holland 33:07
Well, I mean, there's the one reason that nobody wants to hear. And that that is your film just doesn't stack up against other films. There are lots and lots of really good films that don't get into festivals, because it's not enough to be really good anymore. You have to be great. And that's not to say that if you have a really good film, it won't go anywhere. But you definitely need to pick your phone up, pick your battles, you're not going to get into Tribeca, or Sundance or whatever with a really good film. Some really good films do but the numbers are just stacked against you so incredibly. Other reasons I mean, there are more reasons not to get selected that have nothing to do with the quality of your film. Then Then simply the quality of your film, like I put in mind of something that Dan Brawley from the cucalorus Film Festival said, at South by Southwest during a meeting of festival programmers are a couple of filmmakers in the room and they're like, you know, I'm just confused as to why my film didn't get into festivals. And Dan said, you know, for you to get offended that you didn't get into my film festival would be akin to you walking into the grocery store, buying things you need walking out and and saying everything that I didn't buy in the grocery store is garbage. Right? Because that wasn't stuff I selected. It's all garbage. They you know, you just you can't buy everything. You can't eat everything. That's a great analogy, right? So you just have to leave some things behind because there's only so much room in your shopping cart, I guess is the and what that shopping cart looks like is different for every festival. Every festival has an audience to satisfy. And you know, I think this goes back to sort of standard Film Festival economics, film festivals, serve an audience, that audience is not filmmakers, that audience is the people who live in their town or who come to their town to see the movies. Those people, although they buy tickets, or passes or whatever, those people are not really the customer, either. They're the audience, but they're not the customer. The customer is the sponsors, the sponsors, and the people who pay grants. Those are the actual customers because the bulk of the money comes from them. And what do they want, they want a full house, they want to see an event that has, you know, every single seat filled for every single thing. And the better you can do that better you can serve that audience, the more likely you are to get more money from the sponsors. Okay? So knowing this, you have to pick your films. With that in mind, you have to know what the festival reacted well to in the previous years, and what they didn't, so that you don't make the same mistakes over and over again, you can have the best film about, you know, gay cowboys in love. But if your audience hates gay cowboys in love, you are not going to get into that film. You know, sometimes I struggle to come up with examples about

Alex Ferrari 36:17
well, that movie that that movie, that movie won the Oscar. So did

Chris Holland 36:22
I know I'm sure there were film festivals that that film did not get into. So yeah, you know, don't take offense at your film, not getting in a foul festivals don't think it means that you suck. That is sort of the number one trap that filmmakers fall into, is either they get angry and offended. Because you know, and assume the film festivals just don't know what they're doing. Or they didn't watch the film. Right, which is that's utter garbage. Or they think that they're doing something wrong. They might be, but it's not automatically that. Okay, so reasons to get rejected from film festivals. No, to long, bad subjects. I think audio issues are always the big one, right? A lot of people get will sense that something is wrong with a film without knowing what's wrong with it. They don't know why the film's annoying them. And that's very often because the audio is bad, right? It doesn't call itself out. But it's really easy to see with your eyes, oh, this is out of focus, or it's just bad quality or shot poorly. But when audio is bad, you don't necessarily recognize it. And yeah, everything else is politics. Everything else is how does it serve our

Alex Ferrari 37:41
audience? Or our or our sponsors? Well,

Chris Holland 37:45
that those things are connected directly. The sponsors, you know, sometimes want artistic control, but not that often.

Alex Ferrari 37:52
Gotcha. Yeah. Now what would would you submit a work in progress, talking about quality, I know a lot of filmmakers, I deal with a lot of filmmakers that want to like, Oh, I want to submit them like work in progress or without color or with temp sound, or should you just wait?

Chris Holland 38:07
submitting a work in progress is almost always an emotional decision. It is the little voice in the back of your head that says, If I don't hit this deadline, I'm missing out on something. The truth is nine times out of 10, you're not missing out on anything. If you don't make this deadline, there's another deadline coming up or there's another festival coming up or the same festival coming up next year. You know, there's only a period of you know, six to seven months between when you know, a late deadline for a festival closes, and the early deadline for the next one opens up. That's not a lot of time. So you really don't let that little voice in the back of your head control what you do, because it's going to cost you money. And it's going to put you in competition with a lot of other films at a time when decisions have already been made. Right? Like the number of slots in the grocery cart that are available is less because you're coming into the process later, you know later on. So works in progress, you know, that are usually submitted to meet a deadline. And it's kind of a pro move right? festival programmers can see beyond your, you know, your imperfect color or sound and then see the story. They're like they've seen enough works in progress, they know can sort of tell what a film's going to look like. But if you are an unknown quantity, it's your first or second time doing the film festival thing. And you don't really know what you're doing, you know, it puts your film at a disadvantage. Why take that chance, right?

Alex Ferrari 39:49
No. And can we talk a little bit about Sundance because that is the mecca of all film festivals for a lot of independent filmmakers and everyone kills themselves. I mean every year when the deadlines coming I get slammed with we got to make the Sundance, I need to make blu rays. I need to make this I need to get this and it's like everyone kills themselves to try to get that that deadline. Can you talk a little bit about the mystique? The the mythos that is Sundance and how what the realities are of submitting to Sundance. And should they should everyone submit the Sundance is like that lottery ticket, maybe we'll get in? Or should they be more strategic on what works best for their film.

Chris Holland 40:31
I never discourage someone from submitting to Sundance. Because if you don't submit to Sundance, you have that little thing in the back of your head that says, oh, but what if, you know, some people can ignore that some people just go, you know what I know, I don't have a shot at Sundance, and that's okay. If you have that kind of confidence, then God bless, save yourself, the 50 bucks and or $90, or whatever it is the late deadline and move on with your life. But if you know yourself well enough to know, Oh, God, I will just always think, you know, what is? What would have happened if I had submitted to that festival, then by all means, submit? What are your chances realistically of actually getting into the Sundance Film Festival? Every year I used to, and I haven't done this in a few years. But I used to calculate out, you know, given the number of screening slots, and given the number of films that got submitted that year, what roughly was your chance of getting into the film festival? And it was always like, point oh, 3% or something. It was some ridiculous,

Alex Ferrari 41:35
there's 13 there's like was a 13 competition films or something like that? And Sundance?

Chris Holland 41:40
Well, that that matters less than that, you know, because you can't break it down like that. The numbers you'd have to have access to would be crazy. And oh, we could do that. Got it. Yeah. But if you break it down roughly to number of films, or even number of shorts versus number of features, you know, it doesn't take you very long before you get down to less than 1% chance of getting into that festival. Right? Compare that to other festivals where there are 200 slots and 5000 films are being submitted or even like 200 slots and 1000 Films 1000 films, right, your chances get a lot better. So you know, that's one of the reasons that I say avoid those Oscar qualifying festivals because just the sheer math improves, right and I am 10 times more likely to get into festival a than festival B, simply because I know this one fact about how many submissions they get. That's crazy talk, you know, you should absolutely be thinking in those terms. like crazy good talk rather. So yeah. submit this way thinks Sundance is worth it. Yes, please do submit, submit the best copy version, whatever of your film that you possibly can send it into the ether and you know, give it a kiss goodbye, and then move on with your life. Maybe you'll hit the lottery, maybe you won't. There are plenty of deserving and undeserving films that got into Sundance and had their lives changed. Don't Rob yourself of that possibility. If you think there's even a chance you've got no, got that chance. But don't be surprised when you get the dear john letter.

Alex Ferrari 43:15
Well, I mean, a perfect example is that film I was telling you about opsin Lydia, that was a late entry, no star no connection submission with which was color graded. But I think the sound was not done. So it was a work in progress. And they literally dropped it off the last day physically dropped it off in the Sundance office here in LA. And they were one of the 13 competition and won two awards. So it happens but it was but that movie fit of very specific hole in that shopping cart. That was perfect for it was just like that. a year earlier. That movie doesn't get in a year later that movie doesn't get in. But that year, it just happened to make it in. So yeah,

Chris Holland 43:54
that's the kind of lightning in a bottle thing. Yeah, that that does happen and what what makes Sundance so awesome. That speaks to the quality of their programming that they you know, a lot of festivals wouldn't given those kinds of numbers wouldn't have been able to catch that film that late in the year in the submissions process. A couple of screeners would have watched it, they would have given it high marks and you know, somewhere in between the that rush of whatever, you know, the programming team might or might not have been able to look at those scores and give it that chance. Some of the things that you mentioned in that story, though, you know, the fact that there were no stars, the fact that there were no connections, you know, that calls to, you know, to, to the to the attention, the idea that you have to have name actors in your film to get into Sundance or that you have to know someone on the inside. You don't. Sundance has a very vested interest in discovering new talent. They need to be seen as the ones who plucked that filmmaker from obscurity because they made great art. And you know, made something out of them by the very power of the prestige, that is Sundance, they have that reputation to maintain. So they are on the lookout for you, I promise. You know, if you've got what it takes, they will find you.

Alex Ferrari 45:16
I mean, how many how many careers have they launched? I mean, precise. I mean, just it just ever. I mean, the list is insane. Now can

Chris Holland 45:24
you write when I hear filmmakers say, Oh, they didn't even watch my film. And you know, and I realize this makes me seem like an incredible snob and very derisive. But I hear this a lot. And it does, you know, credit to say, I can't get into Sundance, because I don't know anyone there. And I don't have any name actors in my film. That that is that's, you know, selling yourself short, and selling them short. End of rant.

Alex Ferrari 45:50
But with that said, though, having star power, maybe not for Sundance, but for a lot of other festivals does help in the submission process, because at the end of the day, they want acids and seeds. And can you talk a little bit about that? Do you agree with that statement?

Chris Holland 46:04
Of course, I agree with that statement. You know, I mean, if you could have Brad Pitt on your course. Would right?

Alex Ferrari 46:11
Absolutely not Chris, I am loyal to the bone, sir.

Chris Holland 46:17
The simple fact is

Alex Ferrari 46:18
so I mean to cut you off Mr. Pitts, calling me now I gotta go.

Chris Holland 46:22
And the horse you rode in on? Yes, stars, put butts in seats, but they're, you know, some percentage of slots at any given festival that are dedicated to those things. Those are the opening night and closing night and centerpiece films. And they serve a very specific purpose. But you're not competing with those films. Those films generally don't get submitted to festivals, those films, particularly the ones with a list actors, I mean, if you've got like a brsc named celebrities, he's been on TV a few times. Okay, yeah, some of those. But those aren't what I would call serious competition for for your your film if your film has a better story. But yeah, those films are curated from either other festivals or from the distributors who on their rights, they come through a completely different channel than the open calls for entry. And so don't resent those films, Be glad those films are there, because they're paying for you the slot that you're occupying. Because, you know, depending on how things go, a lot of the smaller indie films don't draw as big of an audience and you've got a half empty theater. And you know, that screening cost just as much to put on as the the one that was 100% fall. So in a lot of ways they're paying the rent, for you know, your opportunity.

Alex Ferrari 47:49
That's a great way of looking at it. And can you talk a little bit about first tier and second tier film festivals, and a lot of people have heard those terms? What it Can you explain it a little bit.

Chris Holland 47:58
So you can look at tears one of two ways. Either you can look at tears objectively, like Sundance is a first tier Film Festival, no, no bones about it, right? Or you can look at them from a perspective of at what tier is this festival relative to my film, if you have a science fiction film, right, then a festival like fantastic fast or Fantasia or something like that, that's going to be a first tier fest for you, right? That's going to bring you the audience and the prestige and you know, everything that you want from a festival. So that's like your first tier targets. Those might not be first tier festivals on the objective scale. Nobody's gonna say that fantastic. Fast is as prestigious as Sundance in any other context. But you know, so those are the, when I talk about tiers, that's sort of what I what I mean by those two things. What makes a tier one fast versus a tier two fast? It's a combination of factors from audience size, number of films, they're able to program number, you know how much money they have, whether they're Oscar accredited or not. Who their backers are, right, Robert Redford and Robert De Niro bring a lot of cachet to the festivals that they underwrite. So there's a lot of different factors there. It's it's not like there's any industry standard. There's nobody setting down the canonical. These festivals are tier one or tier two. And this is you know, how she'll be forevermore. But those distinctions do exist.

Alex Ferrari 49:39
Yeah, exactly. Like if you have a horror movie in screamfest is going to be on the top of that list or a horror or you know, one of the top horror film festivals are going to be much higher than let's say Sundance.

Chris Holland 49:50
Yeah, possibly. I mean, so Sundance has its own Midnight's thing. Yeah, yeah, they're they're gonna absorb as many genres as they can, because they they want you know, the Stage of having found those things to again, go ahead and submit your film to Sundance, it's okay, but know that that scream fest or Shrek fest or whoever it is what will also be there for you.

Alex Ferrari 50:10
So these, these last few questions are the ones I ask of all of my all of my guests are so prepare yourself these are the toughest of all the questions.

Chris Holland 50:18
Well, having never listened to your podcast before I am taken totally unaware.

Alex Ferrari 50:23
To say, sir, to say, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life.

Chris Holland 50:31
So the lesson that I keep learning every day, and sort of took the longest to crystallize in my mind was that, you know, while I would not call them festivals in industry, it is a business and there's an economy to everything. What you are doing when you put your film into the into the world into the film festival world is you are hoping to attract a customer you're hoping to make a sale, there's a transaction happening, and you have something of value to offer in that transaction. And that thing is your film, right you by way of your film are delivering, hoping to help the festival attract an audience. And that's what the festival wants from you. The festival has an array of things that are of value to you, primarily a slot in the festival itself. But lots of other stuff that goes along with that. So depending on how high the value of your film is, you can use that leverage to, you know, barter or bargain for other things that the festival has a value that to give you such as a better time slot, or help with your travel or in some extreme cases, even a screening fee. And again, that all depends on how high the value of your film is to what you can negotiate for but never forget that it is an economy and you have the power to negotiate. If you are aware that negotiating is an option.

Alex Ferrari 52:09
Good to know very good to know now what are your top three favorite films of all time?

Chris Holland 52:14
Let's see. In no particular order, because they all hold the same place in my heart. The apartments with jack Lemmon Shirley MacLaine singing in the rain, okay, and Joe versus the volcano

Alex Ferrari 52:30
Oh, I freakin love Joe versus the volcano and that was such an underrated and I was my next question is wasn't one of the most underrated films of all that you've ever seen. I think

Chris Holland 52:38
Joe versus the volcano

Alex Ferrari 52:40
Yeah, no question about it. If everybody out there listening go find Joe versus the volcano starts Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan. And it was a brilliant, misunderstood movie when it was released. I remember seeing it in the theater. Nobody got it. Only years later that it start becoming a cult, a cult movie that people just love.

Chris Holland 53:01
Just hit iTunes like a year or two ago. It was not on iTunes for the longest time. So is now part of my iTunes library. If I were going to answer that question with the film, it's not my top three I would say Steve Martin's la story.

Alex Ferrari 53:15
Oh, I love this story. I remember that's another one. That was another one that people just did not get only people in LA got that move.

Chris Holland 53:22
Yeah, I mean, it's brilliant and has a lot of people in it. Who were not much of it like so many emerging stars.

Alex Ferrari 53:29
So Michelle, Sarah Michelle. navasana. Michelle, Sarah Jessica Parker. Yep, it was one of them. I remember off the top of my head. I haven't seen

Chris Holland 53:36
A lot of a lot of character actors. Yeah, definitely worth a look.

Alex Ferrari 53:39
So where can people find you and I heard you had a little something special for the the indie film hustle tribe.

Chris Holland 53:45
I do. If the tribe will direct their web browsers to film festival secrets.com slash hustle. And hopefully everybody who's listening to this knows how to spell hustle. You will find a downloadable list of my top festivals for hustlers you heard me say earlier that you know the Oscar accredited festivals are maybe not your best targets. This is a list of festivals that maybe lesser known but still incredibly excellent. And I've got some shorts. I've got some features and I even have some for some of the genres out there like LGBTQ and sci fi and stuff like that.

Alex Ferrari 54:30
Awesome. Awesome. And so and then where can people find you other than that? Well, there's

Chris Holland 54:35
Film Festival secrets calm obviously. There is a podcast on which a certain Mr. Ferrari might have been a guest recently. So if you search for the film festival secrets podcast on iTunes or your favorite pod catcher, you can find me there. I'm on Twitter at Film Fest secrets. And you can find me at film festivals. You know sometimes I speak In in person live at film festivals you can find me there.

Alex Ferrari 55:05
And if I'm not mistaken you were just named one of the top five filmmaking podcasts by Movie Maker magazine. Am I correct?

Chris Holland 55:12
Yep, I am an essential podcasts as Movie Maker.

Alex Ferrari 55:16
And I'm not I'm not bitter. I'm not bitter for not making the list. I'm just saying I'm not bitter at all.

Chris Holland 55:20
That's okay. I wouldn't be bitter if I were you.

Alex Ferrari 55:24
And you also wrote a book.

Chris Holland 55:27
I did write a book, Second Edition of Film Festival secrets you'll see a theme emerging here as I say Film Festival secrets a handbook for independent filmmakers. If you go to film festival secrets calm slash resources, you can order these preorder the second edition which will be out in mid April, I believe. And you can get the first edition for free when you do the pre order.

Alex Ferrari 55:53
Chris, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to the tribe. I really appreciate all the the knowledge bombs you dropped on us today for Film Festival. So thanks again for taking the time man.

Chris Holland 56:04
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Alex Ferrari 56:07
And film festivals can be a field of landmines. If you're not careful, there's a lot of things that you need to kind of know before you go into it. And a lot of times you just have to learn that the hard way but by using by going visiting Chris at his website at Film Festival secrets calm or getting our course Film Festival hacks that really helps you out a lot and kind of I mean, a little bit of investment right up front will save you 1000s of dollars later I wish I would have had that course before I started my my film festival runs with all my my projects and believe it like I said before, I lost a ton of cash doing that so and also what me and Chris kind of put together is we've put together a free podcast series, all about film festivals, we're gonna do an eight episode run. And if it really does, well, we might do another another season but for the first season, we're gonna do eight episodes, and it will be called the film festival hacks podcast. And we will put a link in the show notes when it launches, they won't launch probably for about at least another week or two. But when it launches, you can come back here and check it out at indiefilmhustle.com/067 is the show notes and you can find the link there. Now as promised, I am going to be giving you guys a link for 50% off our course the film festival hacks. It's an online course you can take on line you can put it on your iPhone, watch it anytime you like. The link is indie film, hustle comm forward slash festival hacks 50 that's indiefilmhustle.com/festivalhacks50. Now this will be for a limited time only, we may only have it up for a couple of weeks. So I would jump on it as fast as possible because after that, it goes back up to the normal price of 50 bucks. But it will be 25 bucks, which is an insane deal for this kind of course. So check it out. I wanted to let you guys know that we have a indie film hustle community on Facebook. It's a private, private group that I've put together and we have over 4200 now members in it and you can head over to indiefilmhustle.com/Facebook and sign up. We do a lot of talking there. We help each other out. We show each other's work. And we just kind of start you know, communicating and helping each other out there. So that's what the community in the group is all about. So it's at indiefilmhustle.com/Facebook. Thanks again for listening guys. I hope you got a lot out of this episode. And keep the hustle going. Keep that dream alive. And I will talk to you soon.

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IFH 066: What Really is an Independent Film?

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This is a question I’ve been asked many times.

“What is an Independent Film?”

Is George Lucas an independent filmmaker? He did make all his films outside the studio system and paid for them all out of his pocket. Is the $8000 horror feature created with the sole purpose to be sold an independent film? Is the five million dollar film starring a major movie star that worked for scale an independent film?

The Declaration of Independent Filmmaking written by Mark and Michael Polish is a book I’m currently reading and has an entire chapter dedicated to the topic. I discuss the question, in-depth, in this episode. We are all indie filmmakers but are we making independent films? Take a listen.

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
I wanted to talk about guys, what really is an independent film, it is something that I talk I talk a lot about with, with other filmmakers, and people in the industry and outside of the industry. And they always ask what is an independent film? And what is actual definition of an independent film. And I think it's something that we needed to talk about. And I also wanted to discuss so anything, I want to hear what you guys have to think in the comments of the show on Facebook, on Twitter, please send out what you guys think really an independent film is because I've been reading this amazing book called an in the declaration of independent filmmaking an insider's guide to making movies outside of Hollywood, by Mark polish, Michael polish, and Jonathan Sheldon. It's an older book that I just came across and been reading and it kind of blowing my mind a bit. It is based on the film making escapades of the Polish brothers, Mark, Polish, and Michel polish. And I had the pleasure of interviewing Michael Polish a few weeks ago, and we will be having his interview coming out probably in about a week or so. And it's remarkable, a really, really great interview about how he was able to make his one of his movies. For lovers only a DSLR shot on a DSLR in 2011, I think, and the movie is grossed over I think half a million dollars. And it was a no budget film. But we'll get into all of that when we get to that interview. But right now, you know, the question is what is an independent film? What really, that is the definition of an independent film. And my definition at least as well as the Polish brothers is a film that is done outside of the Hollywood system. Now many filmmakers believe that it's based on budget so if it's a budget of you know it, can there be a movie an independent movie, that's $5 million dollars. Now that's just a studio movie that hiding underneath an independent title. And by the way, you know, in the 90s, when the independent film movement started growing, when Hollywood started seeing independent films making money, then they jumped in and they started to kind of brand it and now indie film is is basically kind of almost like, like Mike polish, like in the book, it says, They basically just say it's, it's kind of like the term fat free, it's so generic and just using it to sell more product. And that's what filming that's what studios are doing now, as well, as they'll they'll take a movie, call it an indie movie, it might be a little bit riskier than, you know, they're big studio pet temples, but it's still using the same method, the same system, the same machine, as you would in a studio in a full blown studio movie. So, you know, it's not based on budget, because you know who the biggest independent filmmaker of all time is. That would be George Lucas. I know a lot of people don't think of George Lucas as independent filmmaker, but he is the ultimate independent filmmaker, in the sense of he was able to create his movies his ways, outside of the outside of the studio system. Whether you agree with him or not, and if you like his movies or not, is irrelevant. The relevant part is that he was an independent filmmaker, he wrote the check for the prequels. He wrote the check for his movie Red Tails, he made those movies himself. I didn't got distributed by the by a studio, but he made it without any interference from anybody, and couldn't end and not change his cut or change his vision for any reason. Some of us would say that that would be a mistake with the prequels. But anyway, that's, that's beside the point. But so someone like George Lucas is a an independent filmmaker. So an independent film, an independent film is a movie that's done outside of the studio system system outside of micro studios, or major studios or Hollywood production companies. indie film is really about filmmakers telling stories that are not being told in the main Hollywood mainstream or in the main cinematic mainstream of the world. You know, that's how the French New Wave got started. That's how dogma 95 got started. These kind of movements, john Cassavetes, work all that kind of stuff. These guys were making movies and nobody else was making easy writer was a movie that kind of shook up Hollywood, it was an independent film. That made more money than any of the studio movies that year. And the studio's had no idea how to deal with it. So independent film should be an expression of the artist, the director, the filmmaker, and almost all studio films do these wonderful things called test screenings. And based on those test screenings, endings are changed, things are changed all the time because of these test screenings. Now in the business, this is the test screening or an ending that's been changed because of a test screening is called the San Fernando ending, which means that a lot of films are test screened here in I live in the San Fernando Valley here in Los Angeles. And they are basically everybody here in the San Fernando Valley, apparently is a representation of all of America, according to Hollywood, and this test screenings, and they are the ones that here in San Fernando in the San Fernando Valley will do test screenings, and based on those notes, they will change endings. So it's called the San Fernando ending, which is hilarious to me. But I've heard stories of you know, had a friend of mine, who, you know, won a bunch of awards, including Sundance and many other film festivals. And her second film, she signed on and had a bigger star attached and went through living hell, because of the producer and the production company with test screenings and changing the edit and not changing you know, and, and basically, this poor filmmaker was so beat up after the whole thing, she just decided to kind of walk away till Finally, the when they this, the producers changed the edit, and showed the Edit, they couldn't sell it. So they said, well, let's just go back to your original edit. And that was the one that sold but by then she was already beaten up so much. And I think that experience showed her what independence really means. And her next movie she did completely on her own finances herself, and to express the story that she wants to tell. And that's really the true essence of what independent filmmaking is all about. Guys, that's why we, what I try to do at indie film hustle is to empower you guys to survive and thrive in the film business. And I want you guys to be able to express yourselves as artists, as filmmakers, as entrepreneurs, within the film industry. And this definition of what independent filmmaking is, is or an independent film is is important to understand. Because not always, independent films are supposed to make money, I would hope that they do because there are real realities of life and you have to make money in order to continue to do your art because unfortunately, for better for worse, filmmaking isn't a very expensive art. It's not just a book and pen. It's not just a laptop, even it's it's not a canvas and paint. It is an expensive medium to express your art and, and remember, budget is not the definition of independent film, because of budget was the sole definition of independent film, then pornography softcore, porn, many other things that are budget related that shoot films would be considered an independent film. And I don't think that's what the term independent film really means. So the differences are, a Hollywood production company is adjacent to or attached to a Hollywood studio, or has a direct relationship to a Hollywood studio. So a lot of times they'll create a movie. And in that movie, you're gonna have to go through all the same crap that you would go through in a studio scenario, test screenings, trying to make the ending happy, trying to appeal to as mass of an audience as possible. Now, I'm not hating on studio movies because you know what, if you're spending $200 million dollars plus another $150 million on marketing on a feature film, you better be appealing to the most mass audience as possible. You have to be responsible with the budget that you're given. I'm talking specifically about independent films. We're an independent film really should be about an artist creating and expressing their vision. In today's world, there's no reason why you as an artist, as a filmmaker, go out with $5,000 like Mark duplass. Did, and or john Oh, Joe Swanberg did or Lynn Sheridan did and go out, make your movie and make it and tell the story you want to tell and get it out there. And if you make some money back, great, hopefully you will and continue to make movies that way. Joe Swanberg did that for a god probably about 10 features 10 to 12 features before he even started making real money, but he was popping them out like water. And he was doing it for five grand, 10, grand, seven grand, whatever, just to get them out there. And that's what he did. And that's something that you guys can do into today's world. If you start building up your community, you building up your following, you can sell your art to people and they can support you and you can continue to make the art that you want to make. And that's what it's all about man just being happy about what you're doing, and expressing yourself as an artist and as a filmmaker. So it's a really, really exciting time to be a filmmaker and Again, guys, I hope you got something out of this episode in regards to what an independent film really is. But I also want to hear from you guys, I want to hear from that tribe, I want to hear what you guys think really is an independent film. And, you know, please leave me comments in the in the show notes, leave it in on Facebook, on Twitter, wherever you can get ahold of us, email us. I want to hear what you guys have to say about this topic. And you know, as a community, we want to discuss things and get things out there and help each other and get different points of views on anything we're trying to discuss, especially something as broad of a question as what is independent film, this is just my opinion, as well as the opinion of the Polish brothers in their book. But I really thought that this is something that we should discuss, and get out there and just have that conversation and get that conversation started. So if you want the Show Notes for this episode, head over to indie film, hustle comm forward slash zero 66 I'll leave a link there for the the book the declaration of independent filmmaking, by the Polish brothers, as well as some of their work, the film northfork for lovers only northfork by the ways, in rodri ever called it a masterpiece. And it really is, it's a wonderful, wonderful, independent film and the story of how they made it is even more amazing, as well as for lovers only, which is that DSLR movie that I told you that made over a little bit over half a million dollars, with no budget, but definitely a pair of filmmakers that you should be watching and looking at how they've done things and how they're doing things currently in today's world as well. And don't forget to head over to filmmaking. podcast.com that's filmmaking podcast.com and leave us a review of the show. It really helps us out a lot. So as always guys, keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive, and I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 065: Lloyd Kaufman & Troma: How I Make Money Selling Movies

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What can I say about Lloyd Kaufman? Director. Writer. Producer. Indie Filmmaker. Innovator. Nice guy. Pain in the ass of mainstream media. I believe all of those statements are true and then some.

Lloyd Kaufman is one of the original indie filmmakers going back to the 1970s. The Troma Universe was born in 1974 with a series of highly original, raunchy comedies such as Squeeze Play!, Stuck On You!, Waitress!, and other film titles ending with an exclamation point.

In my favorite decade, the ’80s is where Lloyd Kaufman really made a name for himself. His 1984 sleeper hit The Toxic Avenger launched his career and his production company Troma Entertainment. Creating his own brand of independent films, Lloyd Kaufman discovered there was a market for his “unique type” of films.

The success of The Toxic Avenger was followed by a string of commercial and artistic triumphs in a similar vein, blending fantasy, comedy, badass action, and a bit of eroticism in a style that can only be described as “Tromatic”.LLOYD KAUFMAN, Troma, Troma Entertainment, Troma Universe, The Toxic Avenger, James Gunn, Class of Nuke ‘Em High trilogy, Sgt. Kabukiman NYPD, Troma’s War, Quentin Tarantino

These films, including the Class of Nuke ‘Em High trilogy, Sgt. Kabukiman NYPD and Troma’s War were often ignored or scorned by the intelligentsia of the time but spoke to an entire generation (including yours truly) of young people who rejected the pandering, commercial films of the mid-to-late ’80s. Some of his fans include Quentin Tarantino, Kevin Smith, Mike Judge, Peter Jackson, and Trey Parker.

Related: How a 17 yr old Directed & Sold Her 1st Feature on 16mm Film

Always one to help indie filmmakers, Lloyd Kaufman just wrote his most recent book Sell Your Own Damn Movie!, the latest installment of his acclaimed series of books on guerrilla filmmaking that includes Make Your Own Damn Movie: Secrets of a Renegade Director, Direct Your Own Damn Movie! and Produce Your Own Damn Movie!  The books have inspired Kaufman to teach a successful series of Master Classes at colleges and institutions across the country and the world!

To say this was an enjoyable and entertaining interview would be an understatement. Enjoy my conversation with the one and only Lloyd Kaufman.

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Alex Ferrari 0:21
Well, guys, so you know, man, I run this whole thing by myself, okay, and it takes a tremendous amount of time and energy to put all this together. And I want to keep doing all this amazing content for you through the website and through the podcast. And I've got other shows coming up in the coming months, as well as a bunch of other stuff. So the best way you guys can support me and the show and the website is to buy the courses that we're putting out for you guys like filmmaking, hacks, Twitter, hacks, and we have a lot of other shows, Film Festival, hacks, a lot of hacks, story blueprint, other heroes, two journeys, all of those kinds of courses, as well as all the other courses that we support like Nina fetches USC film school how to direct actors, the million dollar screenplay all sorts of stuff so you just go to the courses page www dot indie film hustle calm Ford slash film school and you'll get to you'll go to all of our courses pages and we have like this little mini film school there so by buying any of those or sharing it with other your friends, that really helps us out a lot and what keeps this engine going guys because I'm not independently wealthy at this point in my life yet, but a guy keep that hustle going to get that point. But right now, I don't I still need your help. And I still need your support as well guys. So thank you all have been supporting us and have been purchasing us and tweeting and doing all the kind of stuff that you guys do sharing all of our content, getting the word out. Really, really helpful, man, thank you so so much. So I want to introduce our guest today he is a legend. In the film world. His name is Lloyd Kaufman, from trauma pictures now, many of you in the audience might know who Lloyd is from his legendary movies like Toxic Avenger, class of nukem Hi, Troy, Romeo and Juliet and many, many other amazing movies he put out. Lloyd is one of the most unique souls I've ever had the pleasure of speaking with on the show. I've been a big fan of his ever since I saw Toxic Avenger back in the day. And a lot of people might look at his films as you know, not exactly what mainstream America or mainstream world would like. And they look at something like Toxic Avenger. And they just like, oh, that's just like some sort of exploitation movie. But if you look deeply into what the story is, he's trying to make a social commentary. And I was, I was kind of in awe of discovering what kind of man Lloyd Kaufman was, while talking to him. He's a very deep, deep man who has had very educated man, and he's traveled the world very worldly person, and he's very keen on the world's problems. And he uses his films to entertain and have fun with it and also try to sneak in a social message, everyone every once in a while through his craziness. He is also did an amazing job and wrote a book about or he actually did a documentary about how he kind of took over the Cannes Film Festival. He goes there and does this amazing show and gets a lot of attention and sells a lot of movies around the world by doing it. So he's going to tell us a lot about how it really is to be a true independent filmmaker, which he has been. He was telling me, he tells me stories about him working on the sets of Rocky, back in the day, I think, I mean, Lloyd is amazing. It's just an amazing interview, an amazing story of how Lloyd has been around so long and continues to do what he does. We just had a few weeks ago, a wonderful young director by the name of Kansas bowling, and she made her first movie directed at 17 and shot it on 16 millimeter. And Lloyd picked it up for distribution and and she sold it to Lloyd to get distributed around the world. He really believes in young filmmakers, he really tries to help as many filmmakers as he can. He's written multiple books about how to make movies, his process of making movies and how to make movies that make money and so on. So Oh, and by the way, he is launched many a career. The guys from South Park, Trey Parker, and Matt Stone from South Park fame, as well as James Gunn, the writer, director of Guardians of the Galaxy start off with with Lloyd Vincent D'Onofrio also started off with him. I mean, the list goes on and on of all the people that he launched and has worked with so Lloyd is just a remarkable man. So you know, without further ado, I just want you guys to sit back and enjoy this very fun, very entertaining conversation with Lloyd Kaufman. I want to welcome to the show Lloyd Kaufman from the legendary troma pictures. It's Lloyd thanks again for being on the show. We really appreciate you taking the time.

Lloyd Kaufman 6:43
Hey, I'm an indie film hustle is dramas favorite podcast, so your euro euro hero in trauma value. champion of the independent artists. I heard your podcast with Rodriguez was very, very, very good.

Alex Ferrari 7:01
Thank you so much. I appreciate that. So Lloyd, I know a lot of people, a lot of people the audience might not know who you are how you got into the business. So can you tell us a little bit about how you got into the business?

Lloyd Kaufman 7:11
Well, Alex, I made the mistake of going to Yale University it was the 60s I was gonna be a teacher or a social worker and make the world a better place teach people with hooks for hands how to finger paint teach bums out a fade happy faces on beads and string the beads together that kind of stuff. But I was placed by God in a room with a movie not and God fucked up my life. Our beds were head to toe at night i'd inhale my roommates to go down stink and feet. And next thing I know I'm in a I started drifting into the Yale Film Society screenings. They were all no oh terrorists. They had the Office of the Film Society Yale had a big stack of Cinema of a K two cinema the literally notebooks of cinema but there was the magazine of the cinema tech policy a most I speak French and read it and so I started reading those things. And I bought into the auteur theory of filmmaking those articles in those days were written by people like Chabrol and and and go down and Truffaut the you know who are just starting to kind of phase from journalism into movies. And I bought into it that the director must be the author of the movie must be in total control must kind of be the dictator of the film. And then one day I happened to drift into see a movie called To be or not to be directed by Ernst Lubitsch starring Carole Lombard and Robin stack and jack Benny and it was during that the fact they're only I was trolling actually for some, some boys to fuck and I was knocked out by why they were only about three people in the room. That night, big auditorium and I was so knocked out by To be or not to be by Ernst Lubitsch. It was so crazy and yet so disciplined, so funny, but yet touching, so serious, but yet, slap sticky. That and I majored in Chinese studies out of which I gained a big respect for Taoism. And Yang and opposites. You can't have good without evil, you can't have beauty without ugliness, right, and all that kind of blah, blah. Hmm. So I was right there in that dark room that I decided during Ernst Lubitsch's, To be or not to be that I didn't want to just teach the people with the hooks for hands how to finger paint. I wanted to film them. So if you want to blame somebody for trauma, go to the graves of Ernst Lubitsch. Robert, what's his name in the catalog bard and urinate on

Alex Ferrari 10:01
Now you're one of your classmates was actually Oliver Stone correct?

Lloyd Kaufman 10:06
Not only that, but I grew up with him we were in second grade and spent most of our educational careers in close proximity his folks and my folks were very tight. Oh, cool. And when I say tight, I mean tight. And, and he and I were he packed he was. By the time we went to Yale. He was writing a crappy novel he wanted to be James Joyce and I was making movies with my roommate, Oliver kind of hung out and I am the reason that he went into movies to help produce sugar cookies my first 35 millimeter attempt. And also he's in battle of loves returned the first thing sound a movie I made, which was a battle of loves return on played in New York, a long time ago, unwatchable, but Oliver has a small part of it. And it turns out there he was, thanks to me. We didn't have to read his shitty novel, became a brilliant filmmaker, and he's one of our national treasures. He's got so many Oscars, his masterpiece has to be reinforced. He dropped me as soon as he became successful. Of course I don't blame them one bit.

Alex Ferrari 11:24
Now, you've know you've been you've been you've been

Lloyd Kaufman 11:27
His mother kept in touch though. His mother would call call his mother and my mother were very tight. Okay, they were all my folks were extremely tight with his vote. Now she just died recently and I sent her a note. Hopefully got it

Alex Ferrari 11:39
That's awesome. Awesome that you sent him the note. Now um,

Lloyd Kaufman 11:43
Lovely lady. In fact, I saw that there was a St. James church in New York. He was having some kind of a reception at a reception a a member remembrance for her and I went, I had to leave on an airplane but I the night before I stuck a condolence note under the door and hopefully he got it and I call the church they said they delivered it to him.

Alex Ferrari 12:05
Now you you were an independent film company before independent film companies were in vogue. Back in the day with with trauma right? And did you it was a trauma first, or did you have another company before trauma?

Lloyd Kaufman 12:18
We started something called armor films that were two older guys who I met when I worked at canon, a company that

Alex Ferrari 12:26
Love canon.

Lloyd Kaufman 12:28
Granted, this was canon before the boys from Tiberias took it over. Yes, it was canon who made joke where I met john G. Abelson, who was a major influence on my herbal and with whom I am in constant contact. And he's still he's still a meeting some pumpkin seeds. I'm stupid me. Why am I eating pumpkin seeds? But I'm talking to Alex Ferrari of indie film. Sorry, I guess it's just nerd. It's all good. I've just come back from Portugal. This morning. A we're making a movie over there called mutant blast. So the jetlag probably got me a little loopy a little bit. Yeah, exactly.

Alex Ferrari 13:10
So how did you start trauma?

Lloyd Kaufman 13:14
The armor films thing didn't work out. And Miko hers and his wife had actually Michael's wife happened to go see cry uncle which you can see it's a trauma movie directed by john g Adelson. I was a partner on it and and trauma ended up with a distribution rights but it was produced by Lee Hessel. It's a wonderful film it's hilarious it's a satire of the film well cry uncle you know cry terror cry what darkness by cry uncle and Adelson directed it's hilarious and and some for some reason, Maris Miko hers, his wife took her mother to see this movie in 1970. It was x rated 35 millimeter x rated movie it had a full page and the times, it was a big success, but she must have put a thumb over the x rating part. She took her mother there. And lo and behold, she sees my big screen credit. And I had made a movie at Yale, which featured Michael and his wife or they had a cameo in it called the girl who returned and she remembered and in fact, Michael hers went to he went to camp they were camp counselors. He was a camp counselor with my brother summer camp. So when it was so he had looked me up at Yale because he and my brother were buddies and and I put him in his what his wife to be Maris in the girl who returned a cameo and movie I shot with a bolex a bolex is not an STD it's a camera. A very fine Swiss cat it is

Alex Ferrari 14:52
it was the same sound with it was that it was a tank of a camera boy back in the day.

Lloyd Kaufman 14:57
Oh it's wonderful. Can I still have it? I've never had it service. I've never touched the I have a zoom lens on it a Vario suito zoom lens. I've never touched the lens with human hands or or I've never even cleaned it. I just blow it off with a baby's suction. enema tube and enema thing, right? Yeah, sure. And but I shot the girl who returns a feature length movie whilst I was at Yale, and it's in black and white, it's unwatchable. But Michael and Meyers have a very funny clip in it And anyway, so she had seen my name and Michael was in law school. She didn't want to he Michael did not want to be a lawyer. And he contacted me and we made some we got involved with Menaka go land and have financed a horrible horrible movie called biggest what's the fuss in Israel? It's the worst movie ever made. James Gunn says that it was the worst thing that happened to Western culture since gerbils or something like that, if nobody he said James Gunn said it was the worst thing that happened to the Jewish people in Santa Clara sub their mind camp, or something like that. And indeed it is. It's awful. And the for your viewers who are listening to this, Alex, the lesson there was that Michael has an eye. And by the way, and D lac, who is another childhood friend of mine, Andy lac, who is now running NBC TV, and also ran Sony Music and the big he's a big, big, big as they say. He the three of us were bamboozled into all we had to do was put up the money. And the Israelis would take care of everything. Of course, why did they take care of everything? What a disaster that was. For Michael hers, we, we, we decided we better do something we kept getting ripped off. So we decided we would, when it came time to, to make squeeze play our women's liberation movie, we decided we better learn how to distribute films. And that was in 1974. And indeed, that, that in those days, if you had a movie that was commercially viable, you could get it into movie theaters. And if the budget were really low and and the movie was entertaining, and commercially acceptable, you could make a few bucks and we did from then on we became so that's when we started drama when we decided we have to distribute our own movies. Oh, we're never going to see any money. It's a crooked, crooked world.

Alex Ferrari 17:31
Oh, and it's not gotten any better since 1974. If not, it's gotten a little worse. As far as the distribution game is concerned.

Lloyd Kaufman 17:37
It's much worse because the rules that against monopoly have all been done away with so you've got the vertically integrated devil worshipping international conglomerates, controlling the entire industry from the bottom up. So unless you're a partner with one of the vassals of Rupert Murdoch or, or Viacom or Sony, you can't survive. And the proof the proof of the pudding is where are the sorry to be that use that trite phrase, but where are the dish? Where are the independent movie companies with any longevity we're the only ones Lionsgate is doing great that's it and they're not they haven't been around that long and they are built on the ashes of restaurants on video and

Alex Ferrari 18:21
artists are exactly autism

Lloyd Kaufman 18:25
and and maybe one or two companies that are 15 years old maybe but it's it is not that there are hundreds of independent companies that come and go and it's not that they're making bad movies is that they cannot survive in an industry dominated by a cartel but now but now though with cartel ism it's no absolutely it's it's worldwide that's returned to nukem is a movie that came out last year in about 300 theaters. It It was profitable because was made in conjunction with one of the vessels of a giant company called liberty. They're the biggest either they are Comcast, the biggest cable conglomerates, and stars, stars, entertainment, stars, media, whatever they are, they were our partners. And a young guy who grew up with trauma was in a position to greenlight It was his idea really good and bad. The movie was very low budget. And I had total control and I was if I kept if I kept the budget around $400,000 they give me total control and we did it and we made a little money. poultry guys Night of the chicken did poultry guys is a much is equally as good. Maybe better. And my wife and I put up the money for that. And we lost pretty much 95% of the and that cost about half a million bucks. And and New York Times everybody loved it. It's a musical it's totally good, but we couldn't make any money because we didn't have The cartel binds

Alex Ferrari 20:02
now with the with the world the way it is now and so many different opportunities for for independent distribution Do you see things changing a little bit from that because now an independent filmmaker who has an audience like these YouTubers like these guys who are completely cutting out the cartel as you call them, and creating a business on their own,

Lloyd Kaufman 20:21
there's a big difference between Grumpy Cat and of course of course Angry Video Game Nerd and how to basic and I love them all. They're great, terrific, but that's not my beat. I make 90 minute movies you're right you're gonna if you want to make a 90 minute movie, you have got to get in with one of the vessels of the big companies otherwise you just don't have a chance in terms of making any money. Now we have millions of people I just came back from Portugal we don't have a lick of distribution in Portugal. They did they did at the Portuguese Comic Con in Porto it's important to Portugal it's I swear it's the best Comic Con I've ever been to beautifully organized. Absolutely. Top Notch I was definitely not the big big marker there right but they had 1000 people at my they told me 1500 people were at my panel was toxie and a crappy mask and me and and we have no distribution there so we've got millions of people who are watching our movies through the magic of the internet unfortunately we don't have any you know we don't have any revenue producing distribution.

Alex Ferrari 21:35
Now when you said toxic non toxic This is the way I was introduced to trauma and to you as most people I think are is through Toxic Avenger I saw back in the days when I was working in my video store in the late 80s

Lloyd Kaufman 21:48
where any people saw me dance at the manhole club where I had a wonderful pole dancing

Alex Ferrari 21:54
I wouldn't I'm sorry I missed that one sir. Yeah,

Lloyd Kaufman 21:58
I just want to be sure that I get credit for that part.

Alex Ferrari 22:02
Of course no no so when I saw when I was at the video store working and I I saw this box of about in those VHS boxes which are so beautiful the artwork for Toxic Avenger and I was like what is this and I took it home and I was mesmerized mesmerized by the the audacity of it and I was a young man at the time I was still a teenager and I was just blown away by it I was I was a big fan of it and I'm like wow this is really this is just cool and I it's a warm place in my heart Toxic Avenger and I've always followed trauma and all the all the stuff you do since then but how did you come up with the idea and there's there's a story behind Toxic Avenger and because you released it in the theaters, it was actually a hit. If I'm not mistaken. Can you tell us a bit

Lloyd Kaufman 22:47
originally, first of all the all the movies that I get involved in with Mr. Michael hers. My partner 40 years they all have a political or sociological themes to them. And in the case of the Toxic Avenger, my wife and I used to go camping and everywhere we went, this would be in the 70s there was garbage and it was non biodegradable. We'd go in the wilderness we'd go in the mountains we'd go in the desert, and there were McDonald's cups or whatever they weren't they weren't they weren't going to biodegrade and I got to me thinking look this is a terrible thing the environment by the way this was well before al gore greenspeed Nobel Peace Prize and invented the internet that fat fuck is in the front row at the peace conference in Paris to what what obscenity is that nothing Obama is the one who took us he stuck his neck out Obama took shit that he Obama said our biggest problem is is a global warming and everyone should know who knew our biggest problem is terrorism terrorism he's wrong they are wrong Obama was right it is global warming because of global warming you've got a millions of people running out of the out of they can't live they got to move and they all moved into the cities of Syria and that created all the crap that's going on this is global warming Obama's absolutely correct anyway and gorge taking credit for this so

Alex Ferrari 24:13
you were saying so Toxic Avenger actually you're the seed of the idea toxic venture was because of all of the detract with

Lloyd Kaufman 24:21
the environment but at the same time Alex there were a an explosion of health clubs were my body beautiful right right Yeah, well we are doing we are making ourselves beautiful in these sports clubs. Not Sports Club, you know Athletic Club, workout clubs, you know Yeah, with the machines we go to. gyms. Yes, yes. Yeah, we go we're getting into Athletic Clubs and and making body beautiful while we are defiling and destroying this big blue marble of ours. And it's the yin and yang as I referred, and I thought it'd be a good thing for for a movie. Also, Michael has Notice that the variety or one of the one of the house magazines of the studios might have been Hollywood before it was one of them one of the house organs had a headline saying horror films are no longer viable commercially. So when the experts say something like that we immediately do the opposite of course so that we decided we wanted to switch from squeeze play wager stuck on you the first turn on which all had political themes, by the way, or sociological themes. We wanted to switch into horror, and I couldn't I like comedy as those Michaels so we didn't want to make we wanted the monster to be a good guy. I love Frankenstein and I always felt that the G It's a pity that he, you know, gets killed and destroyed and so we wanted the monster to survive and Chaplin is a big hero for me so the blind girl is from city lights and Preston Sturges I was revisiting Preston Sturges at diamond Solomon's travels was a big inspiration of that movie love that founder of trauma Ville and Bob i can i the book that my first book, all I need to know about filmmaking I learned from the Toxic Avenger that my first book that I wrote, which was written by James Gunn, that first book that I wrote, which was written by James Gunn, as a huge section on I can talk about Toxic Avenger for for an effect I've given masterclasses just on Toxic Avenger. No, because there's so much that when actually all the movies I've done them, they take a year or two to percolate and then we write the script and then another year or two to make, which is why my output is not exactly Allan Dwan

Alex Ferrari 26:42
or Woody Allen for that matter.

Lloyd Kaufman 26:43
Yeah, what he won. I don't know if you remember him, but he was still around when I was at Yale, and he would make he had to. He started like 1912 and finished up like, he made like 150 movies. Now I remember what good he was a good director.

Alex Ferrari 27:00
Now I remember when I first saw you, I think this is going back God like at least 10 to 12 years ago. When you were when you were doing your your tour for your book. You were mentioning the make your own damn movie. Oh, okay,

Lloyd Kaufman 27:15
because I've written six books. Yes, I know. I've written six books that other people have written. Exactly.

Alex Ferrari 27:22
But make your own damn movie was the one that you were talking about. And you were in Florida at the time where I was and and you were talking about Toxic Avenger. specifically about how because at one point you had a cartoon series you had toys you had merchandise and then you said it stopped because some like the cartel or something was stopping you Why don't you talk a little bit about that

Lloyd Kaufman 27:44
yeah, we signed a deal with a new line a division of Turner Warner, whatever Warner Brothers Time Warner whatever. And they were going to make a big budget feature length toxic movie right? And and the and we had the cartoons out the toys were out the all they were like 200 different licensed things kids, sneakers and slippers and colorforms and you know all that stuff. And the whole idea was the movie would be the locomotive to pull all this stuff along. And it turned out that newline had their fingers crossed. They were apparently we using Toxic Avenger as a stalking horse for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles with whom they were having difficulty signing part three and they kept us in their back pocket when they signed the third talk turtles movie then they didn't even tell us they weren't going to make a movie they kept us sort of spinning our wheels and the only problem they had was their contract guaranteed that they would make a because we had other deals one is wanted to make a toxic movie a big budget review no big budget movie mainstream and the new line in the contract says that they are guaranteed to make the movie didn't there wasn't a pay in play or any of that crap it was it was guaranteed to make. So anyway, they didn't do it and that destroyed the whole thing and everything went away. Everybody ran for the hills and man and doobie we but we had a we had a we had a nice since we own everything. We had a little period there where we actually made a few bucks. Oh great. we sewed we soon have a new line and these as as they Oh as those kind of companies do. They drag it out for three or four years. They didn't think we had any money but it did. We had really big time lawyers and we were they settled on the steps of the courthouse. As they say yeah, as they say and they most independent producers of mortgages their homes and don't have any money to hire or top major YG lawyers and we did we had them because my father pulled some favors. And we had a major, major major a lawyer named Milton Gould, who actually ran Fox for a while. Wow. So you had some heavy guns after Darryl Zanuck and Cleopatra Fox was in the shed house and and gold in the group were brought in to bail it out. And he was a he and a big time from lawyers and eventually, new line. And whenever I would see the boss of new line, he always would say to me, he just couldn't I guess we were the only ones that drew blood. Me was good natured about it. He said, I you know, you knew I gave you so much money, which he didn't it wasn't that much. Right? Right. But it must we must have been the only ones because he'll always be mom that once it's the one. That's a tough business, that's a hell of a business.

Alex Ferrari 30:56
So now like you essentially and I know you got over the years, you've become kind of the king of marketing your own yourself and trauma. And I know the first I know, a lot of people kind of knew you from the spectacle that you brought to the Cannes Film Festival. So can you talk a little bit about what you do there? And what was your experience the first time you did it and how people reacted?

Lloyd Kaufman 31:17
Well, first of all, let me say that there is a very nice movie on our Movie Channel dramas to mark our 40th year and and do a show appreciation to our fans have been there for 40 years in supporting us. We've given away at least 200 movies on youtube, right? trauma movies on YouTube. It's our channel if you go to trauma movies. One of those films is called all the love you can see a and s and it's a documentary about how trauma sells its movies at the Cannes Film Festival in the face of one billboard by Paramount costing more than a trauma movie. Right and we have to do street theater we do parades we do we have legendary party. Anyway to all the love you can shows you this. And recently, we thanks to the miracle of Kickstarter, our fans helped us get a a sequel a 10 year later sequel to that. But gun and Charlotte Kaufman, our third mutant child is currently editing it. And really, really interesting I think it's called sincerely trauma Ville or something like that. Nice so so your fans could look for that I think it'll be finished. It's been that's taken two or three years because we also have to feed you know, the fans put up some of the money but we've got to put the rest up and we don't have very much. So she's been editing and hopefully next year we'll have in fact some film festivals have already contacted us about sincerely Joe moville they want it seems that they want to not harbor festivals but the other kind of festival we've had a couple I think tried for somebody from Tribeca called Oh, wow, cool. So anyway, it should be interesting for at least for the fans of filmmaking and do it yourself movie making, it does show how we distribute and how we in fact now it can there are lots of independent producers looking for distributors who will go and create the kind of street theater and they bring some sort of an animal like a llama to can and do a parade or they have crazy car they've kind of do what we've been doing for 30 some odd years

Alex Ferrari 33:40
but you were the first one to do it.

Lloyd Kaufman 33:42
I well I don't know where that well I mean, in my day when the first time I went was 1971 I mean people have always done stunts at can but those stunts usually cost a lot of money. We you know the Swartz Nagar gang the the dependent that dependables expended depends wearing a balls whatever. They they had a tank and army with machine guns and all that kind of stuff. But that's very expensive. So we do things in the street that create a huge amount of attention. And the media How many? You know how many photo opportunities with the women and $200,000 dresses can the media put up with where

Alex Ferrari 34:29
when you have a Toxic Avenger walk in the street?

Lloyd Kaufman 34:30
Exactly. The Toxic Avenger with a mask that's all wrapped up and somebody vomited in is actually rather interesting story.

Alex Ferrari 34:39
Now, you have obviously a rabid fan base that's that's been with you for years. Now can you can you discuss the importance of audience building and how you interact with them?

Lloyd Kaufman 34:51
Well, that's a great question Alex. And we wouldn't be here without our fans. The fans and the internet are the two big reasons trauma still exists. We actually are a very small company we have about 10 employees here and but our fans do so much that it's as if we had a huge multinational corporation. I just you know we're making a movie in Portugal and I went for I went for Comic Con because I was invited there but a fan who his family gave us an apartment to live in for free and I'd never met the guy you know he knowing that movie is very low budget we started shooting mutant blast directed by Fernando Ali who is a another very talented young filmmaker who I've discovered he made a movie we distributed called banana motherfucker which is hilarious if he will be the next James Gunn of Trey Parker or Eli you know the next Eli Roth you know a bunch of these guys have come up to drum up and I think he's next in line and anyway he's directly mute and blast we shot the first day while I was there but fans paid for my an apartment right in the center of town or they gave it to me their parents owned it or something they go and take me to the airport they pick us up they they feed us they and they also all around the US they go to the local movie theaters and they say hey Lloyd directed return of nukem hi we want to see it and then we get a screaming we may only get you know one week or one day or one midnight showing it's mainly calendar houses but if I direct a movie we get about 300 theaters one by one by one by one by one and in many cases I have to in many cases I have to go to go to the theater and create sort of an event and interact with the fans of course by saying it's as if we have a big multiple and people have missed it you know on my Twitter app Lloyd Kaufman calm a lot of fans think that we have this huge company and I and they say why can't you show return to newcomers Volume One in Cincinnati Ohio. I say no problem go to the theater and get it booked. Right? They think we do all that stuff. The fans have really we are a fan propelled fan fueled fury FFF

Alex Ferrari 37:23
now and cake I think I heard you once talk about what to sell to your audience and when not to sell 30 on it so that's a mistake a lot of filmmakers and people who with audience do that they just do that hard sell like buy buy buy buy buy and there's a moment when you can sell and there's a moment when you don't sell How do you handle that?

Lloyd Kaufman 37:43
Well I think I interviewed Karen black who is a unfortunately died but she was a big fan of and a good friend. And her thing was I interviewed her for my distribution book distributed your own damn movie, which I think is my best book. Okay, I think it's the most forward looking visionary book. But I interviewed her just because she's a totally idealistic wonderful person. And I thought her comments even though she's not, not in the you know, she's not a distributor, and award winning actress, having worked with everyone from Hitchcock to to me, and she said that you should be honest, you shouldn't sell your movie for something it isn't it and a perfect example.

Alex Ferrari 38:31
Give me what Hollywood Hollywood does on a daily basis is what you

Lloyd Kaufman 38:34
said already often. The international companies a perfect example is observing report. That's a brutal dark comedy with Seth Rogen. And unfortunately they sold it like more like that fat rat actor was in mallrats No no, not more rats more rats was great. Yeah, no, there was a one about a cop. Oh,

Alex Ferrari 38:58
Paul Blart Mall Cop. Yeah,

Lloyd Kaufman 39:00
Paul TV. Oh, garbage, but they sold it. It was a big hit. And they made observe and report sound like that. They made a mistake. It was such a good movie. They should have just sold it as a great comedy, they would have done great with it. It's a wonderful film. So that's a big mistake. I think the best way to sell is to be honest, and we unfortunately don't have a advertising budget. And we only get one theater now in New York. You know in the days of Toxic Avenger. when it opened wide in New York, I think we had 70 theaters a while when waitress in 1980 waitress movie waitress Not to be confused with the one that's playing around now. Waitress in 19 8092 theaters just in New York City. And they bet man so so then you can advertise you can spend money, but one theater we can't spend any advertising money. So we have To get our fans to go out there, and, you know, we use my twitter and the trauma website and trauma, Facebook and I wrote a little bit about, you know, we put a few ads in the New York Times or, you know, maybe in some of the internet sites, but it's all word of mouth. It's got to be word of mouth and the young people today they don't want to be, you know, how many? How many times do you want to see travelers, the critic, Peter Travers, wheezes these likes every movies on every movie poster. You know, I don't think it means anything anymore. I don't mean to single him out. But you know, the, the New York Times critic, every movie and and the front page of the Sunday New York Times theater section, they twist themselves into a not to try to feature and say good things about a movie, just because it's a it's opening a big, big, big movie, you know. And of course, they're on the needle of advertising. So they've got to pay attention to, to, to, you know, we had our 40th year in drama last year, two years ago. It's a New York company, we've hired people who would be on welfare if it weren't for us. We own a building, we pay real estate taxes. We've made movies, how many movies, tons of movies in New York, not one word in the New York Times, not one word. In fact, when my book came out, or was it know, when poultry guys came out, and that we got good reviews, but they stick us in the ghetto, they do like a three paragraph review, you know, they put it in, you know, they put me in with the, with the Iranian guy who's making a politically correct movie about sheep flipping or something. Right, you know, and it's his first movie, right? You know, that's where they stick me and God dammit, so we can't go that way. It's basically our fans. You know, we just have to let them know and ask them to please spread the word lady, movie Blanca lady so he can afford to buy drugs and get drunk or whatever. And we've been

Alex Ferrari 42:12
fortunate and that's the trauma army. That's the trauma army.

Lloyd Kaufman 42:15
Well, there's a perfect example the trauma army army is based in Cooke and Ohio area, and they've been with us for 10 years. The the guy who the the couple who do our conventions. Ron and Kathy, Ron Mackey. Ron Mackey has a cameo and he actually sings in poultry guys. We met him up there in Buffalo when we were making that movie, he and his wife have this huge group of fans and they run our conventions. east of the Mississippi, and they do about 30 Horror, sci fi comic book conventions every year. They don't get paid. They did I tried. You know, every once in a while we try to pay them but they don't even want it. They just do it because they love trauma. We've got a guy in Florida Jimmy, right, who is a very talented musician. architects of fear. I made a music video for him for free. Thank him. But he runs our Florida conventions. And and he's in they both are in our movies of course. And then in California, we have a couple Megan and Marcus, Megan silver and Marcus. Anyway, that scattered No worries, some cat tranquilizer this morning. So basically what you're telling me is lesser moq is lesser they they weren't our conventions in the West and they all do this out of love. And for the fun of it and out of love of drama for the fun of it. Stan Lee got us the Toxic Avenger comic book done. I've been friends with him for 50 years. James Gunn has helped us Eli Roth has helped us a lot of the people who are now in the mainstream, like the guy who greenlit returned the nukem high volume one who was in a position of power at stars. He grew up with trauma and they're all good people and we've been really like, like a Tennessee Williams we depend on the kindness of strangers.

Alex Ferrari 44:22
Now, obey me basically what you have is is something that most independent filmmakers and independent film companies would kill for. You have a passionate rabid audience that supports you and does work for you essentially for free because of the just because of the love of being associated with your brand or being a part of your

Lloyd Kaufman 44:42
brand would be no you know, return to nukem hi is my Sistine Chapel. It's two movies, it's two halves. The first half has come out and played in theaters and been pretty well reviewed. The second half we're currently editing. We did we didn't have enough money to finish the second half. We ran out of money. Our fans put up the money to complete the post production.

Alex Ferrari 45:04
Now, I had the pleasure of speaking to a young lady on the show, Kansas bowling. And she she told me the story about how she went to your office and basically sold her movie to you guys. Can you tell me a little bit about it from your perspective?

Lloyd Kaufman 45:21
Yeah, her movie wasn't finished if I recall correctly, and I had lunch with her in LA and I was so impressed with her I gave her money I didn't ask for distribution rights. I didn't I didn't ask for anything. I took a cheque from the back of my checkbook so my wife wouldn't see it and I gave her a pretty and I think I'm pretty good amount of money I think I'm executive producer of the movie I didn't there were no strings attached I if she could have I you know I told her you go to Paramount if you want but she she stayed with the drama she gave it to drama to distribute.

Alex Ferrari 45:59
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Lloyd Kaufman 46:10
Even though it's very hard to make money, but I was very impressed with her because she when I met her she was 17 minutes something like that. And she was working on this movie shot on 16 shot on 16 millimeter which is pretty interesting too for anybody these days. Right? And it wasn't a zombie. You know so many I get so many pitches and so many scripts and so many tweets tweet people tweeting me I've got the next Toxic Avenger I don't need the next toxin I've got Toxic Avenger. Yeah, I can make my own crappy Toxic Avenger. I I don't need another zombie movie she's making her project was really it was feminist. It was different. It was Thank you. It was absolutely terrific and and she was terrific. I only had seen a little bit of the movie and I didn't I didn't give the money for the movie. I gave it for Kansas bowling because I was so impressed with her. And she was so she We met at Los Angeles. I stayed at a kind of a fleabag and were in Marina Del Rey kind of and there's a Mexican place. Dammit. It's a well known place it's on the thing that goes to the water. It's right near the ocean. Okay, we met there. She took a bus to get there and, and I was so impressed with her. And you know, I hadn't even seen the movie. Really. I saw a little bit of it. But

Alex Ferrari 47:40
in the movies called bc butcher the first serial killer in prehistoric times.

Lloyd Kaufman 47:46
Something like that, but it's a it's a it's a matriarchal movie. It's terrific. Yeah, I can't again, what an impressive it's like a banana motherfucker. We're not gonna make money with that movie. We're gonna lose money, but we'll come out. You know, we're not we're not going to get killed. But that guy Fernando is a talented dude. And the next one mutant blast, which we're financing. Uh huh. That will be his cannibal, the musical that will propel him that I hope will make a few bucks. But I think that will propel him the way that Romeo and Juliet got James Gunn's motor running and got him propelled and I think this movie VC butcher will be a first step for Kansas Bowling for sure she's motivated she's,

Alex Ferrari 48:32
she's amazing, amazing.

Lloyd Kaufman 48:34
Pretty amazing.

Alex Ferrari 48:34
She actually reached out to us even not knowing that I was gonna have you on the show. And she just reached out to us it's like I love you. I love what you're doing. This is my story. I'm like, Oh, I have to have you on because how often do you get a 17 year old Who's shooting a 16 millimeter feature film today? it's great it's it's I don't I don't know

Lloyd Kaufman 48:54
Okay, that is that she lives in California. Where are the Where are the all these wonderful studio people who are so themselves up at the Kennedy Center above themselves? You know, the Spirit Awards and all that shit. Where were they when she was coming along? Same with cannibal the musical? The only person that gave Trey and Matt any kind of encouragement, Stan brakhage the experimental filmmaker big hero to me was in the movie and and trauma right now. Now when you talk to people out in LA the you talk to the suits. Oh, I love that film. I wanted to destroy bla bla bla bla and then ever did that. But meanwhile, it's trauma Who? Right

Alex Ferrari 49:36
right? Is it now can you give a list because Can you give a list of or talk about a handful of the people who've actually come up through trauma who are now big time actors or directors?

Lloyd Kaufman 49:47
Well, we were the first to recognize the great talents of Sir Ron Jeremy. Sir Roger Villa we put him in. He has a he plays the mayor of troma Ville back in 19. 85 in class of Newcomb Hi, Part Two and Three of course Samuel Jackson's first movie, I didn't direct it so it's good it's his first movie his death by temptation. Yeah, I remember that movie and all black we were Michael hers and I were the only white people involved in that movie. And, and was all we did was give him money. And it's a wonderful film, but it wouldn't have gotten made if we didn't step in. And it gave him about 400,000 bucks as I recall, and we distributed it and it did very well in the theaters. But then the videos blew up. We're not they were afraid that to come in and burn their stores down.

Alex Ferrari 50:44
We had it we had it in our little video store in Florida so well

Lloyd Kaufman 50:46
good. Brave the after that boys from the hood came out, which was Columbia Pictures as I recall it 1990 and the stories were not burnt down. I think that opened up a lot. But we unfortunately did not make money and I think death by temptation may be a best film. But I think Samuel Jackson ought to you know, give us a little little that Marvel money. No, give us at least a mention every once in a while because it wouldn't have movie wouldn't have happened without us. Got it. Got it. So who else so people generally the white people, nobody was financing. Bizarre recall. Nobody was financing all black movies then it was if they were it was Spike Lee and that's it. Now you talk about Magnus and Andy in the 50s wasn't much. Now Matt and Trey are because Michael is like that film. Michael Hearn said this is a good film and it wasn't a stereotypical movie. Right? No, it definitely snow brown beat up the women kind of movie. No, no, it's a really wonderful he didn't matter what color the people are in depth by temptation. It's funny. It's scary. It's colorful. It's beautifully shot. And I was scared shit because I had to shoot the big climactic monster blowing up scene. And I had to follow the guy who directed juice and Oh yeah, yeah, I know he talking about I forgot. I had to follow his camera and I was worried that he would be furious because I you know, I had we I dp the end of the movie. Oh, damn it. I've interviewed him too. He's in my book. He's the best he do. You know he did juice but he's a great camera man. I got dp anyway.

Alex Ferrari 52:32
So um, it'll come so that you also you you also launched Matt and Trey of South Park fame.

Lloyd Kaufman 52:39
Yeah, yeah. How big again what and how nice are they they they acted in terra firma movie that I directed which is my most personal film, terror firmer. And I urge anyone who's interested in filmmaking to see it because it's about making a trauma movie, they play hermaphrodite couple and and they did it right after they were on the cover of Newsweek or something and I can imagine their agents and the managers were delighted. I'm sure they were but then those rolls with no pay no

Alex Ferrari 53:12
less. But they walked in they definitely dancer their own beat those two on that right?

Lloyd Kaufman 53:17
And they're awesome. There are people in the main street who are amazing James Gunn is the best. Guardians of the Galaxy.

Alex Ferrari 53:24
Which by the way, I love your cameo and guardians of the galaxy. Thank you. I actually I actually saw and I was like there's Lloyd in the

Lloyd Kaufman 53:33
most happy about that. And you're you're not alone. And that one I got more. More fan mail college. Kudos. What's the other word pro props, props, props, props. I got more props. Those two seconds than anything I've done in 50 years of making movies. Thanks, gun. Oh, no, seriously, that was

Alex Ferrari 53:54
when you're when you're when you're in a

Lloyd Kaufman 53:56
Eli Roth, Eli Roth. It does the commentary track for blood sucking freaks. It's terrific. If you get the DVD or I think we may have just put out the blu ray. If he's too. He loves movies. He is the best great guy, a wonderful guy. And he's always trying to help us. Guillermo del Toro had nothing to do with making movies with him. But he also wonderful guy loves drama, talks about us tries to get our name out there. You

Alex Ferrari 54:24
know, I've spoken

Lloyd Kaufman 54:25
to people in the mainstream.

Alex Ferrari 54:27
Again, most good was awesome. He loves filmmakers. I've met him a few times. And he's been amazing, amazing. Amazing. So where do you see trauma in 10 years?

Lloyd Kaufman 54:37
I think trauma and toxie have a life of their own but it's tough. Very tough. We own a big library of movies. Hopefully it's not you know, I'm going to be 70 years old in two weeks I could I could make a noise like a frog and at any moment and you know, Michael, hers is getting on to the He looks great and these include strong as strong as Superman right? Um, but I think the the best would be to hopefully whoever moves in takes keeps it as, as an entity. It's got its own life and its own energy, everything its own joy and soul and Samar cough. You know he he created the American International pictures out of whose loins everybody including Roger Corman, a corpsman whose loins everybody else, I mean, I'm an amateur. I've stayed in New York in the underground. So a lot of the people who I've worked with are New York underground. You know, they haven't they have not become James Gunn, although they are extremely talented, and they're doing great they are not household words the way jack nicholson from Corman and cupola, everybody came out of corpsman and AIP but but Sam, our cough love trauma, and we were good buddies. And he told me his biggest regret was that he sold his company to what was then called film waves I think that they they eventually became Viacom and of course all those movies in that wonderful spirit that was AIP is of course all dissolved and do you know Yeah, I got such stuff, as dreams are made of in a little life is rounded with this. All dissolved into nothingness, unfortunately and happens AIP American International pictures that's such a great, I mean, my company was basically modeled on that business model, except I'm crazier and not terribly commercially minded. But that was the company that proved to me when I was at Yale when I saw Roger Corman's invasion of Roger Corman's. Man with the X ray eyes, crab invasion of the crab monsters and the pole movies. Sure Allan Poe, Edgar Allan Poe, not the Little Rock and Roll guy that that pole northern river pole when I saw Corman's movies it proved to me that Gee, you can make good low budget movies with good scripts and good acting and and make them worthwhile and have a personal have the personal statement involved to

Alex Ferrari 57:24
now they're very important not just do you have any advice for young filmmakers trying to break into the business today?

Lloyd Kaufman 57:31
Good question. Yeah, I think if you've got to make a choice, okay. I think you if you want the Oscars and the hookers and the mansion and the cocaine and all that you got to go out to LA if you want to make a lot of money, I don't mean go out to LA but you've got to, to to become a partner with one of the vassals of Rupert Murdoch or such. Or you do what I did and do what you you know, do what you believe in and scrape a few bucks together and make a movie that is totally your own and, and, you know, if it does, well, great, if it doesn't, you keep going you keep trucking, and full steam ahead. I think Shakespeare said it best. He's the guy who coined that phrase, to their own self be true. He did that you can, he wrote a bestseller called 101 money making screenplay ideas, otherwise known as Hamlet. I think he had the right idea to learn self to do what you believe in because this is the hardest. It's nothing harder than making movies. And and I made a speech when I was on the set of Guardians of the Galaxy. You know, even though it's a $200 million movie he made a speech about when he's when he's on set, he's channeling he's channeling uncle lady because he wants to be responsible. He wants to be on schedule he wants he wants to have he wants to have total freedom and he does. And he wants to make the best movie he can. But at the same time, he wants to be responsible because you know, we all know about Heaven's Gate we've read that fascinating bone is named right. Final Cut, right? Yeah. One night is fascinating. I mean, I have to do that you as a viewer and you don't want to go that way.

Alex Ferrari 59:27
No, I can imagine the immense amount of pressure on like a JJ Abrams now with Star Wars coming out soon and, and James with guardians and guardians was complete, like nobody knew a lot of people thought it was gonna fail. And nobody knew it. It was an unproven property. I can only imagine the kind of pressure a director is under because if it says a misstep, it's gone. It's over. It's the game just

Lloyd Kaufman 59:49
it's more when you're making a movie for half a million bucks because you have to be responsible for, for everything. Everything from the bathrooms, right? They don't have enough bathrooms a lot of trouble. And there's nobody in between you and the bathroom guy, right? We had a citizen toxie, the Toxic Avenger, Part Four, where we didn't have enough of those porta potties. And they filled up. So when you sat down on them, you felt the person who were dedicated leavings you know, and that's a horrible thing. But I'm the guy, I'm at the top there, I've got to be responsible for the lunches, and are they gonna be on time and where the car is going to park, I don't want them in the shot. You know, we're working in large part with a very idealistic young people who come from all over the world. You know, the guy who came in from Iceland, I can't put him in charge of location scouting, right? for returning the nuclear my volume one. By the way, he beyond the gouter is his name. He knows more about trauma movies, and anybody in the world. But I can't you know, it's it's this huge amount of pressure. It's a very dangerous, you know, we bloke, we have explosions, car crashes, special effects, where people have to transform goals, latex, silicone, all sorts of stuff. It's very dangerous, and that people are working 20 to 20 hours a day, and they're sleeping on the floor and eating crap food and learning how to defecate in a paper bag. And it's very stressful. It's on the other hand, it's the greatest patient in the world,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:26
right? After all of that, but it's the greatest thing I've ever done.

Lloyd Kaufman 1:01:30
I wish I had a little more money to take the pressure off because it really is tough. And and, you know, the other problem, of course, is that insurance is huge for movies, because it's all based on the big boys. You know, we're a half a million dollar movie and insurance ends up a huge percentage of the budget. Crazy. Now, we can't possibly not have it. Of course

Alex Ferrari 1:01:57
not.

Lloyd Kaufman 1:01:57
No, if not definitely we're Sean, Debbie rashaan, Queen of independent movies. And a wonderful Actress at her hand, literally cut off on a low budget movie, down south somewhere with a bayonet, and they didn't have insurance. And then she was totally screwed. No, cheese is horrible. No way that can happen. You know, when we have to have insurance. And they have that everything is aimed at the big guys. That way, it's all the playing field is used to be slightly you know, maybe it would be at a 45 degree angle against you the independent filmmaker. Now it's a little like a strippers, Poland's and it's greased. You can't climb up. But she's very hard. You really, you really have to want to be a filmmaker, very, very independent, or you've got to go join the mainstream and try to do what Trey and Matt and James Gunn and Eli Roth and others have done. You know, not many of them. But there are great, great, great, wonderful people who are making great movies in the mainstream. And there's some great actors I mean, you have to assume that Kristen Wiig I've never met her. I met her once. I met her once because my wife is the New York State Film Commissioner. Right? And but I you know what, we had to two words, but she's she's doing good movies. No, she's doing great stuff. There's a whole generation of mainstream actors and directors, Adam McKay, I'm going to run to see short the Big Show. I'm dying to see that Ray because he's a great director and writer and eastbound and down as to whether so they were great people in the mainstream. And, and again, I don't know a lot of them, but the ones I do know, like the ones I mentioned. They're wonderful people. They're great, lovely people.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:46
Now what, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn in life or in the film business?

Lloyd Kaufman 1:03:53
Oh, well, continuing what I just said. I think that I clearly don't have the ability to navigate the corridors of power away. James and Eli and those guys can Trey and Matt can do and it may be that my vision and my soul and my talent just simply aren't there or don't conform to what the public what the mainstream public is interested in. So I probably that's the the lesson that took a while to sink in. Because for the first 15 or 20 years of trauma we did try to at least we did try to break through that Yeah, to work with the mainstream you know, we went on a lot of goose chases because they you know they hear like I've ever was stuck on you the woman from Warner Brothers had to go out there and bring the stupid movie with me when it was finished and and at one point she started crying because Cuz we didn't want to do it, we knew they, we know that the woman was there to say no, that was why she was there. So I put on my bar mitzvah suit, I take the print out there. 35 millimeter, I go to the studio, they don't have my parking pass. It's a 5000 degree wet day today. I'm sweating like a pig. Got the two cans with me again. So I get a part. Finally, I get a parking space. It's a half a mile from the screening room or whatever. And and then they say, well, you can leave the print here or Wait, am I supposed to meet with the election of Obama? No. And of course, they have no Intel, you just want to say no. So eventually, we gave up. But yeah, we just realize it's not you know, it's just not for us. And then finally, the coup de gras was the final countdown where Kirk Douglas and Peter Douglas, because of our ability to produce movies that look big for very little money, they brought me on to the final countdown. And I was associate producer. We were we had a little piece of the action. We never saw a cent of course, United Artists distributed. But that movie could have been great. Kirk Douglas is a hero, great film director, great actor and great writer, genius. His son Peter, same thing. And I we were the only ones who wanted to make a good movie. Nobody else gave a shit. They all were concerned about who had a bigger suite than a 13 or whatever. One of them wanted to were were upset with me. Because Peter was 19 and I was 30 something and so was I 3045. Yeah, I was 37. He was upset because Kirk had a bigger corner suite than he is the special effects guy practical effects guy was glomming false he was putting in false petty cash I mean that what we're going to have for lunch they didn't like the lunch they didn't got it.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:59
It was not about the movie. Yeah, the director

Lloyd Kaufman 1:07:02
was a drunk the I mean absurd and here's a movie with Martin Sheen Katharine Ross and a bunch of Mr. Douglas and but it was made for very little money compared to what it could have been made for and it has it the director didn't want to use the we wanted to have f4 teams dog fighting with Japanese zeros is terrific way ahead of war games or video games or anything and and the director said no, we can use it's a bug a mugger or something. He had some word to use that he thought was cute. Oh go mugger hugger mugger if we use file footage, you know, and luckily Kirk wouldn't stand for it. And then when I got the Navy to, to agree to use it, yeah, we were able to actually have the f4 teams in the zeros. But if you look at that film and you imagine what would that be? That'd be like rocky without Stallone jumping up the stairs, running up the stairs, right? Of course, of course. But in the case of Rocky, which I worked on, there was a dedicated group there. an enlightened group and the case of Final Countdown that could have been a fabulous movie. It's not bad. Right? Right. Right. Could have been so good. If Kirk and Peter were the only ones that gave and me other than that, it was like we're pulling along a giant barge of garbage by ourselves, so I'm this way if you want to see me event, there's a blu ray. Final Countdown not by blue underground. Yeah. Which in which they interviewed me and I pretty much sum. I talked about it in much more detail. I think I told him to tell the truth. And by the way, if you get the rocky the rocky Fox put out a multi, I think all the rocky movies in a box set. And the big thing they are publicizing is my home movies because the guy who works for us was down in the building the trauma building basement and found all this super great stuff. I must have shot. I don't remember it. But I shot a lot of behind the scenes stuff in Super eight. And I sent it out to john Abelson, the director, and he chopped it down and he and I wrote a script for it. And there's about a 10 minute piece where you actually see how we shot all these great scenes in Philadelphia, line producer or production manager on the US the non union crew from cry uncle. They didn't have enough money to film in Philadelphia and bring everybody there but still alone in Adelson wanted Philadelphia and right they work. So Abelson had me put together the cry uncle gang that he used non union guys about eight days, all those fate all those iconic shots of Stallone running through the fruit market and going up the steps in that store and all that stuff. We did sabrosa and charge of all that and when he And some understanding cam first time a steady cam was used right first time and I had I had behind the scenes what I couldn't believe it just because one of the guy works for us madman juries would whenever he had free time, he'd go down to the basement of our building and rummage around down there and he came up with these movies, I had no recollection of shooting it, except that my wife is in them about every two seconds. So then I saw the camera store I filmed a little bit of end of the reel in the camera store that I use to get the stuff process. So it had to be my

Alex Ferrari 1:10:34
So um, this is a question I asked all my guests. What is your top three films of all time? I'm dying to hear your answer.

Lloyd Kaufman 1:10:43
I don't have top I can tell you just three movies you love. I can tell you the number one movie Okay. Okay. The religious experience and I've only seen this movie once because it was such a religious experience. And I didn't want to Sully that experience. Although I probably should I'll be dead so it'd be kind of curious to see what I think of it now. Mr. Gucci the Japanese john Ford or, or john Ford was the American Mizoguchi. He made a movie called princess young boy fake. And it's a Chinese legend Chinese novel a part of a Chinese novel from the Middle Ages. And it's if you look up the word sublime in the dictionary, you will find princess Yong Wei Fei. And that movie was just such a experience for me cosmic that I didn't want to see it again. I never wanted to see it again. In fact, some fans some fans make it she gave me a plexiglass box with a lock and she locked up the VHS inside the plexiglass box and gave me a key to open it and it says open for if desperate or open an emergency or something like that. And and I haven't I've stepped but I didn't use it. For instance, young boy face So that to me, probably that's the number one movie of all time. But I think I go by directors as I mentioned, I think anything by Chaplin by john Ford by Keaton, Buster Keaton, Keaton I love King Howard Hawks. xiongan while Fritz Lang Stan brakhage, the greatest visual artist in my lifetime probably. I think those kinds of bricks long Leni Riefenstahl? You know, I couldn't really tell you a movie just in Sturgis. I love his book Preston Sturges. I read it a long time ago, between the flops. It's a great day for a cautionary tale. A guy was the Oliver Stone of his day and that he had hit that, you know, major, major mandates, and the suits still wouldn't leave him alone. They destroyed him. They made him they just Buster Keaton also and the lesson the takeaway there is own your negatives do what Chaplin did Chaplin will own these negatives he was he was hounded he was blacklisted. He was he had to run away for you know, he had to flee the United States. And we treated him like shit, but he owned the negatives so he ended up a rich man Buster Keaton equally as talented and maybe more so was unfortunately a contract player. And his career was ruined by the day

Alex Ferrari 1:13:24
He died he died broke if I'm not mistaken.

Lloyd Kaufman 1:13:27
He did. He was destroyed and it's more than money. It's a you know, they break it down. return you to drink. Oh, and I've been lucky. You know, I just came from, I go to San Diego Comic Con. And in terms of celebrity, I get a line of people who want my autograph, right? I go out the street and people have in my way oh man get out. So I kind of have a little bit of celebrity in a certain way. It's pretty interesting. But yet I don't have the it's not like Taylor Swift if somebody were walking on the street right now although my dress as I get older.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:06
Lloyd Lloyd, you are the definition of a hustler, an indie film hustler without question. You are the Grandad uncle of hustling.

Lloyd Kaufman 1:14:16
And that's why you should see terra firma if you haven't if anybody out there because Larry Benjamin he's a blind director. I play the part and you know maybe his films are good maybe they're not but he believes in them he believes in him and he's hustling again even see and and as a result his whatever it is, he attracts a following and and I think that's a lot to be said there. In the end by the way that was the terra firma was shot before Woody Allen did his blind director movie right that one with them. Hollywood ending Oh yeah. Although Hollywood ending is I love how it's a great photo of that. It was not what people didn't like it but I love em

Alex Ferrari 1:15:03
So Lloyd where can people find you?

Lloyd Kaufman 1:15:06
On Twitter? I answer all my own Twitter. Okay, so that's the best way @Lloyd called a double L o y d By the way, not LYOD or Lloyd Kaufman it's unbelievable how many people misspell the word void is a Welsh name and it's pronounced in Welsh

Alex Ferrari 1:15:31
So you've got your you got your Twitter where else facebook?

Lloyd Kaufman 1:15:34
That's the best way to contact me but the trauma website you can contact

Is that troma.com

troma troma.com there's a trauma Facebook, my Facebook Yeah, I've got a Tumblr and YouTube what's your brand?

Alex Ferrari 1:15:48
What's your YouTube?

Lloyd Kaufman 1:15:49
tromas YouTube and as I say we every day we put up a new movie or short film or uncle Lloyd's diary, I do a little video diary. And we have make your own damn movie. Educational Videos, how we raise money, how we squash ahead using every day around the house melon, how we sell our movies, short pieces from my masterclasses or video and videos of pieces of my books. Every day, we put up something new trauma movies, and it's YouTube. Troma movies, we've got 120,000 subscribers

Alex Ferrari 1:16:28
Nice, nice.

Lloyd Kaufman 1:16:30
It's a very good it's all free. Nothing to lose.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:33
Lloyd Thank you again. It's been an absolutely entertaining by far and educational interview. So thank you so much for taking out the time and I really appreciate it.

Lloyd Kaufman 1:16:42
I love to hear from people who are fans of movies and even those who are opposed to what we're doing. It's I answer everything. So contact me on Twitter is probably the best way. And thank you so much. I really appreciate your interest Alex and, and keep up the good work with indie film hustle.

Alex Ferrari 1:17:03
Man, that was so much fun. I really love talking to Lloyd. Hope you guys got a little bit of insight about how trauma works, and hopefully get some inspiration of how you can build your online media empire as well doing what you do and many guys have followed in in Lloyd's footsteps if you will. So if you really want to get a little bit to know a little bit more about lawyers work and also just see some amazing trailers for like Toxic Avenger. Sergeant Kabuki man, NYPD a bunch of other movies it they're just so much fun to watch. Head over to troma.calm. And if you want to get you want to listen to that interview with Kansas bowling the 17 year old who directed and sold her first feature film on 16 millimeter film, head over to indiefilmhustle.com/059 but I will have it all in the show notes of this show, which will be indiefilmhustle.com/065. So guys, as always, please head over to filmmakingpodcast.com and leave us an honest review of the show it really helps us out a lot and get the word out on indie film hustle. And guys just to let you know I am working a lab on some big working on coming up projects of my own that share with you but projects for you. To get you guys more stuff, more content, more information. I'm obsessed with getting you guys as much information about the business as possible. I'm trying to create a resource that I wanted I wish I had when I was starting out as a filmmaker. So I want to share as much information as I can with you and get it to you in any way I can. Whether it be through podcasting, through video podcast, through YouTube, through Facebook, through Twitter, through skywriting or whatever other way smoke smoke signals whatever way gets to you guys. That's what I want to try to do. So thanks again all for all your support guys. It's humbling every time I get all those those kind of fan letters and thank you letters that I get and emails that you guys send me telling me how much it has helped you how much the show has helped you much the website is you know opened your eyes and helped you guys in your process as artists as and as independent filmmakers and independent filmmaking entrepreneurs. So from the bottom of my heart, I humbly say thank you for all the support guys. So keep the hustle going. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 064: No One Gives a $#*% What You Shoot Your Film On!

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OK, so before I get bombarded with hate email please hear me out. I was speaking to my filmmaker inner circle the other day and the topic of format and camera came up. I’m a huge tech-head. I love gear as much as the next filmmaker.

Hell, you can’t make movies without gear. Advances in filmmaking technology have liberated a generation of storytellers, filmmakers, and content creators. Now does the audience give a CRAP about what camera you used to make your movie…NO!

If you want to know what it really takes to be a successful filmmaker in today’s world take a listen to this short podcast.

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
So guys Today's episode is a one that might cause a little bit of controversy but you know what something I was talking to a few of my buddies about the other day and I was like you know what I got to talk about this because you know I fell into this trap as well early on in my career. You know, a lot of people get so caught up in what they shoot their movie on like I shot this on the red epic I shot this on the weapon I shot this on the Alexa I shot this, you know, you go all the way up to the top level of the highest end cameras and then you go all the way to the bottom. So like I shot this on my iPhone, I shot this on VHS, I shot this on whatever. And that might have worked 10 to 12 years ago, 15 years ago, like when I did my film broken, I shot it on mini DV at the time mini DV tape. At the time, there wasn't a lot of movies being shot on mini DV but I remember there was another movie with Katie Holmes called pieces of April that was shot on the Canon XL as well as 28 days Danny Boyle shot it on the Canon x Oh again mini the mini DV tape. And that was kind of a marketing thing back then. You know now currently with tangerine that was shot on the iPhone. That's a little bit of a marketing campaign, a little bit of a marketing thing too. But at the end of the day, guys, no one gives a crap the reason why people care about tangerine is because it's a good movie that people care about it. It's a good story. People don't care about what you shot on. It's not it's not impressive anymore. You know before it was like I shot this on 35 millimeter and that was a big deal. But nowadays no one cares if you shoot this on the weapon or the epic of the shot 7k or 5k or any of that crap it's all fluff it's all bs it's about story guys. It's all about story. So please stop. You know marketing your film by using like, I shot this on the red epic I shot this 5k I shot this on the Alexa or I shot this on an iPhone or I shot this on a VHS tape or anything like that. You know what, at the end of the day, that's all nice and dandy, but has to be a good movie. No one really cared about, you know, it's like the olden days. Like when Robert Rodriguez came out with El Mariachi, a $7,000 feature film, he was the first guy to do that he was the first guy to come out and said he made a movie for $7,000 By the way, I'm gonna want to talk a second about that $7,000 the movie you and I saw on DVD or in the theater or Blu Ray, that movie does not cost $7,000 that movie cost probably about 1.5 to $2 million when they had to redo everything. So that's something else. It's called marketing for a reason they'd like Oh, it was made for $7,000 Yeah, he made it for $7,000. But the version we saw was not the $7,000 version. It was a 1.1 million or 1.5 million or however much they spent but I know they spent over a million dollars on it because they had to redo the audio tracks completely that to remaster everything because he shot it all on on 16 millimeter film had to transfer to three quarter inch tape. For any of you guys who don't know what three quarter inch tape is Google it. It is an old technology, very old technology. And he edited tape to tape back in the day. There's no way in hell that that master tape that he made for $7,000 was transferred onto a film onto a film stock and then projected in theaters. Transfer DVDs and all the other formats that they eventually transferred on. So back in the day you could say like I made this movie for $7,000 and I did it with broken I marketed as a movie that I made for $8,000 and it was very impressive back then you know with 100 100, visual effects shots and so on and so forth. today's world is not that world anymore guys it's not something that anyone cares about. No one cares that you made this movie for five bucks because there aren't being their movies being made for five bucks every day 10 bucks every day you know so you're either going to be the cheapest movie ever made which now everyone can make the cheapest movie ever made because anyone could just grab an iPhone and go make a movie. Or your the most expensive movie ever made you know 100 million $200 million $300 million. So guys, no one cares what format you shot on. No one cares what your budget is. No one cares how much struggle you went through or that you jumped off a window to get this shot or not. No one cares. No one cares about the struggles it took you to get to where you are in making your movie that only goes so far. If the movie sucks no one cares you know they only start caring if the movies really really good. And then it just adds to the the the flavor if you will of the movie and the whole story behind it. Like the Reverend the Reverend story. You know, it was such a huge moment that I mean a lot of people say that the making of the movie is more interesting than the movie itself. I would argue to say yes, I agree with that. But the only reason people even cared about all this craziness is because the movie was good. Same thing with Apocalypse Now took three years to frickin make that he almost and Francis Robocop almost shot himself. People only care about that because it's good. You know, what was also a horrible experience to make a movie Heaven's Gate. If you guys ever have ever seen a movie called Heaven's gates, one of the worst bombs of all time, no one cares how hard is that that movie was to make because it wasn't it didn't do well no one cared, it's not that great of a film. That's why people don't care about it. You know what they care about? They want a good story they want to see if you can tell a good story they want to see if you have not only can you tell a good story, which I think is the most important thing production quality can go away you know audio try to keep audios as best you can guys but visual quality can go away as long as you've got a good story if you got a good story that is compelling and people can you can see the people on the screen and you can hear them clearly. And it's not like super polished or super anything that's what people want man that's what people really are attracted to. They want good stories we have such a lack of good storytellers out there now all we have is people just you know so obsessed with the pixels and the cameras and all these other things that they try to throw so many smoke and mirrors up and believe me I know about smoke and mirrors because I've done it with a lot of my projects you know you create smoke and mirrors but at the end of the day it has to be story has to touch somebody in one way shape or form. And that's what's the most important thing guys, so you know, I have nothing against gear I have nothing against, you know, analyzing your tools and seeing which tool works best for you. But don't obsess about it. Just worry about story. You know, I just discovered and I just did an article about this director who has blown my mind and his name is Joe Swanberg. Swanberg, Joe Swanberg has made over 20 feature films in 10 years and one year he made six feature films, all very low budget. He comes from the mumble core movement. If you don't know what the mumble core movement is, of independent film, definitely just Google and you'll understand what it is. You know, they started basically him and Mark duplass and all those guys, they started making movies back in the early 2000s. With no money literally like 50 bucks. 100 bucks. They just grabbed the camera, whichever camera they had, and they went shot a movie with their friends. Audio sucked visual sucked, but they took it they told good stories. You know, Mark duplessis movie the puffy chair was a big huge mumble core fan Lena Dunham from girls HBO girl started out this way. They just want to grab the camera and start telling stories. And Joe Swanberg I just started getting into his work and I've been blown away by how he's been able to do what he does. And if you guys have not checked out the article I wrote I'm going to put a link of it in the show notes at indie film hustle.com forward slash zero 64 I'll put a link up Joe, the the keynote dress that Joe did at this year's South by Southwest and he breaks down everything about his how much money he makes, both the financials are about his movies, how he makes those movies for five grand or 10 grand or 20 grand or so on, you know, and he just finished making a movie his biggest movie ever which was half a million and then he went straight back down after half a million he did another movie for like 50 grand with Anna Kendrick, Olivia while jack London and Ron Livingston called drinking buddies. And you know I've just been blown away has how prolific he has been. And he's basically the the embodiment What this whole podcast is about, go out and tell a story that's important to you, that you feel like you really can do something with, okay? Don't allow technology to get in your way. Don't allow other people to give you permission to go make a movie, you can do this on your own, you can grab a camera, you can grab your iPhone, just make sure you work on that story, you make sure that you work on something that is important to you. And that you can tell well, and that's going to be more important than any camera you use. because trust me, I've worked on a lot of projects in my life, and through my post production company, and I've had things shot 5k 6k 4k on the biggest, you know, biggest budgets ever. And a lot of times they suck, I'm sorry to tell you and some of the most humble movies I've worked on because of budget shot on the DSLR shot on a seven D shot on a small camera, even an iPhone have blown me away because of the passion, the love the the energy behind the story that they're trying to tell the belief of what they're trying to do. So that's where you guys have to be alright, don't get caught up with the gear gear is great. We love gear. Without gear, we can't make our movies. And obviously the bigger the camera the more fun you can gather with it, the better the images great, but just learn how to tell a story. And I'm going to just end this podcast with a great quote by the amazing john Cassavetes film is to me, just unimportant. People are very important. So don't forget that guys, when you're making your movies, it's not about the gear. It's not about the format. It's not about how much you spent it's not about the struggle you go through. We all go through struggles to make our projects we all go through struggles to make our art to make our films no one cares about that. They only care about one thing can you tell a story. Now guys i hope i wasn't too rough with you on on this episode. But I really care about what you guys are doing out there. And if I can inspire you to tell better stories in one way shape or form that's why I'm here that's what we're trying to do at any film hustle to help you guys out so good luck with all your projects keep going for and right. Again if you want to get those links to Joe Swanberg keynote, which is a must listen to as well as the mark do plus keynote about how to make a movie for 1000 bucks. I'm gonna put both links in the show description in the show notes at indie film, hustle calm for slash zero 64. And as always, guys, please head over to filmmaking podcast calm and leave us a great review for the podcast. It really helps us out a lot. And I really want to get the word out on indie film hustle, and what we're trying to do help as many filmmakers out as possible so and share guys share everything we post as much as you can. If you like what we're doing, please share it and on your social media. Email, however, get the word out on what we're trying to do guys, because we're really trying to help as many people, as many filmmakers as we can. So thanks again. As always, keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive and I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 063: The Walking Dead – Working on the Dead Set

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If you are a Walking Dead fan you are going to LOVE this episode. If you ever wanted to know what an assistant director does onset you are going to LOVE this episode.

In today’s episode, we have a long-time friend Vince Gonzales. Vince has been working in the film industry for over the top decades. His IMDB page is pretty crazy. He’s worked on 90 classics like The Sandlot, Speed, and What Dreams May Come. Now after 2000, his credits start to heat up: Pearl Harbor, Six Feet Under, Charmed, Boston Legal, Grey’s Anatomy, Transformers: Age of Extinction and of course The Walking Dead.

I wanted to bring Vince on the show to discuss his time on The Walking Dead but also what it takes to be an assistant director on both small and “monstrous” sets. Don’t listen to this episode in the dark.

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Alex Ferrari 0:04
So guys today as you can tell a little bit different. I have gone full deadhead for walking dead. This is our special Walking Dead edition of the podcast and we have a very special guest this week we have Vince Gonzalez who has actually worked on walking dead for seasons two and three. So he was there very early on and saw the growth and how the cast kind of blew up and the whole show like how it started off as like this little quiet little thing and they had no idea how big they got and all this kind of cool stuff. He gives us a lot of information about what he did on the show. He was a assistant director and Vince is worked on I mean his his credits are insane from Transformers Age of Extinction neighbors Red Dawn, the tooth fairy with the rock stepbrothers as well as Pearl Harbor traffic. And then on the TV show it's and that and that's not by the way, he worked on a ton of other movies as well. One of my favorites, sandlot Encino Man and son in law and speed for God's sakes. I mean, he's worked on a ton of stuff on TV shows Walking Dead Grey's Anatomy, Boston Legal charmed six feet under the list goes on and on. He is a wealth of information and I wanted to get him on the show and it just so happened that this this week is the final episode of the season for walking dead and that he worked on the walking dead I am a huge Walking Dead fan. I was like well, I got to get you on the show. We're going to talk a lot about an assist being assistant director, stories from the set all those kind of cool things, but I dug in deep on what was it like to work on walking dead? The process is how they not torture but Raz new directors as they come in, and what they do to the new directors. So on new directors going on two sets of a TV show always keep an eye out because it's it's kind of like a fraternity sometimes. But anyway, guys, it's awesome, awesome episode, so please, enjoy it. Without further ado, my interview with Vince Gonzalez. Vince, man thank you so much for being on the show, bro. I really appreciate you taking the time.

Vince Gonzalez 3:29
Alex, how are you?

Alex Ferrari 3:30
I'm good brother. Good. It's been it's been a few minutes since we've talked. We work together god how long ago now? 10 years 10 years ago a way though, right? I think it was 10 years ago when we work that we did that in a leap thing where you are my You are my first assistant director on that project.

Vince Gonzalez 3:50
Ohh that was so fun.

Alex Ferrari 3:51
It was so much fun. And then I came back a year later to be a teacher, an instructor which was a lot of fun. And then we got to know each other on that level as as opposed to me just going crazy running around as a director.

Vince Gonzalez 4:04
It was you know, it was a lot of fun. We created a lot of great work in a very short amount of time. It was a it was a sort of a camp an intensive where we took young directors for a week and we prepped two scenes from their feature film scripts and shot them over a weekend. And

Alex Ferrari 4:28
With real talent or crew yeah with restaurant.

Vince Gonzalez 4:31
Yeah, that's amazing results. They had the editors there but they laid music down to it and in say a week we had a finished product of these two scenes that we were able to view and look at and with with you know high production value and Hollywood results.

Alex Ferrari 4:47
Yeah, we were shooting on if I remember the the we were shooting our mini v mini DV on the Panasonic dv x 100 a little camera, but that was the technology 10 years ago.

Vince Gonzalez 4:59
No it was a great great programmed with young people, or newer filmmakers who had never put the camera down who always held the camera. We took the camera away from him said, talk to the actors.

Alex Ferrari 5:11
I know it was so weird because I was a director, I wasn't I was I was that trouble director wasn't I had to remember if I remember correctly, I caused a big stink. Because I brought a second camera, I wanted to shoot, I wanted to edit. And I was like, I had no idea how to do anything else, until finally the program director, she's like, no, you're not gonna do anything, you're gonna direct and you're just gonna talk to the actor. And I'm like, but I have a second camera, I want to make this production really good. Like, now you can't use a second camera.

Vince Gonzalez 5:40
That's, that's true. They gave you some trouble about that. But you know, they give them all trouble, because it was all these directors who had done everything who were one man bands, and to give them a professional crew and have them step back and focus on the actors. I mean, you could tell us what that's like, because it's got to be a big freedom for you.

Alex Ferrari 5:57
You know what I tell you that the first time I ever directed something that was not that I did not edit was that I'd always edited, everything I've ever done. So when we did those scenes together, and I had someone else editing and I would walk in and I kind of tell the editor what I wanted and walk out of like, well, this is nice. This is nice.

Vince Gonzalez 6:19
But that that allows you to also rethink that from being a filmmaker who's who could be a one man band and get it all done yourself from beginning to end to trusting the collaborative process and having professionals and other experts in other talented people who are talented in their own fields. Be part of, of your piece of art, you know, having 20 artists rather than just you?

Alex Ferrari 6:45
Oh, absolutely. Now we've already we've already digressed. Vince, we haven't even started the interview yet. We just catch it up. So there's I wanted to get you on the show because you have a very unique perspective on the film business you've been in the film business now for I'm not gonna say the years but a good amount.

Vince Gonzalez 7:04
More than two decades,

Alex Ferrari 7:06
let's say more than two decades. Absolutely. And I loved working with you. And we work together. And we've stayed in touch over the years. And I really wanted to get you in the show to get your perspective on things. But first and foremost, tell me tell people how you got into the business.

Vince Gonzalez 7:20
Well, you know, I grew up in Colorado, and I went to school at the University of Colorado and I had a communication class I, I went into the communication School, which is interpersonal communication, and it's because my roommate came I was an undeclared as a junior, my roommate came home and said, Hey, I just got an A in the comp school and there's 30 girls to every guy, every class. So I said okay, I'm gonna be a con major Why not? Right? And at the comp school, I kind of brought in a different, different ideas. I mean, they wanted me to write a 15 page paper with four other people. And I said hey, there's this I'm taking this VHS I have access to a VHS recorder a camcorder. Would you mind if we just did a video project instead of writing the paper? Can we try that and the professor was up for it, which was cool. And we did this project and it took the Communication Department by storm and they loved it we all got A's and you know

Alex Ferrari 8:27
Now what is this now what is this VHS thing you speak of? Is that like beta now I'm joking.

Vince Gonzalez 8:39
Right? But But you know, I made it we made a film and a film a video project rather than writing the papers and and to me, it was a better way to communicate. And it was exciting for the for the console to to see the results of this is the whole class you know, we have them and they laughed and it was funny and they got the point. So to me that made me excited about film and I decided to go into the film program and make films and the rest and film program there. So I created my own independent degree and moved to LA decided I was going to move to LA and make movies so

Alex Ferrari 9:20
and then and then you and I was looking at your, your IMDb and you've you've worked on a lot of movies, but in your early career you worked on some of my favorite films growing up, sandlot Encino Man, son in law. Those movies I mean when I was growing up I absolutely love and Sam lots of classic I mean it's an amazing and you're a PA on these on these are just starting out you were just starting out basically in your career. So how did you how did you get your first gig? How did you like just get that first foot in the door?

Vince Gonzalez 9:54
Well, I had I had moved to Florida because it was going to be the new Hollywood.

Alex Ferrari 9:58
Yes, I'm from Florida. So I'm I'm in Orlando even more. So yes, I completely know that that was the

Vince Gonzalez 10:03
right thing with Disney. The Disney Studios were built and they were had just finished universal. Yes, huge studios and yes, and Spielberg was on, on the TV and on the radio saying in Hollywood, he's just gonna kind of give going to be a great place to make movies. And so I didn't have a lot of cash when I moved at a college and I moved to move to Florida to get started. And I worked in the film office, I was an intern in the film office, and I delivered the permits to the various commercials or whatever was shooting, because I wanted to get to know what was going on. And I go to work at the TV station at night, because I had sort of a TV background as a floor director. And one day I delivered a permit to an hbo movie. And it was called some buddy has to shoot the picture with Roy Scheider from Jaws, of course and and I met the producer and I said here's your permit, sir. And here's my resume. I really want to work on your movie. And he said well, thanks for the permit and you know, there's really nothing on your resume that pertains to us but why don't you call my office and see if they need some help? And I was like okay, great. Wow, yeah, so I called the office and and they said Yeah, come in tomorrow at 9am

Alex Ferrari 11:26
does that's the greatest phone call ever isn't it? Well, well it is.

Vince Gonzalez 11:29
It is and I went at 9am and I'm and they said wait here and then they said make some Can you make copies of this well while you're here and how about making coffee and here's some money to go to the grocery store and bring back a receipt and I came back and and did all these things and pretty soon I'm saying well When am I going to get my interview you know I have to go to the TV station at three o'clock and you know I want to make sure I get my interview done it's almost two o'clock right now and they said What have you been doing the job for half a day TV station I says I'm not coming back now and ever thank you very much cut back on business

Alex Ferrari 12:15
that's all so you really don't even know you were in the business that's how green you were you had no idea that you had already started working

Vince Gonzalez 12:22
that's right as long as I can follow orders I think I was doing it and I know that was really a lot of a lot of fun and it doubled my salary and and that job lasted three weeks so at the end of two weeks I'm starting to say well we're gonna finish in one more week and I gave up a solid full time job and and what am I going to do right everyone there says you know what, we all work you'll work again and I said I don't have any experience she said stay in touch with everyone on the show that you met and you'll work again so I was really nervous and kind of scared but I just kept doing a good job and amazingly the production company picked up another show I was down for a week before they said hey come back to work we're going to we need you to do some pickups and some deliveries and get started again I was like wow that fast great it's it's

Alex Ferrari 13:21
it's it you know I've been a freelancer all my all my adult life in the film industry pretty much only other than two jobs that I had, which I was gloriously fired from. I'm very proud of my firings. I wear them as badge of honors.

Vince Gonzalez 13:36
You no one in this business until you've been fired? Yeah, absolutely.

Alex Ferrari 13:39
Absolutely. So I know there's that whole like, oh god, what am I gonna do? Am I gonna work next week or not? And that's only towards the beginning. But once you've once you like, oh, work just starts to come. And it is something that my wife took years to finally get comfortable with. This. It's we're carnies. We're carnies. mints. We're carnies. We're, we're Carnival folks to

Vince Gonzalez 14:03
Try and sell your mother in law and the fact that you have a regular job and a corporation.

Alex Ferrari 14:10
And listen, I listen to I tell you what my wife's family for three years, kept asking her and he was like, What is Alex do again? Like they couldn't they just didn't grasp the idea. Like, what is that? Like so? And then finally, after three, you're like, well, there's been food on the table. So apparently he does something and it's it's not illegal. So

Vince Gonzalez 14:30
So you know, my neighbors are skeptical.

Alex Ferrari 14:35
Exactly. No, can you Now with that said, Can you talk a little bit about the importance of relationships in the business and how imperative it is to maintain those relationships over the course of your career to be able to work?

Vince Gonzalez 14:49
Well, sure that was that was some of the best advice that someone gave me is that we all work somewhere and if you stay in touch with all of us, you know, someone's going to go somewhere and they're going to need some So that's really what you do is you start that, you meet that first crew, and you stay in touch with everyone there. And they all go different directions, because there's that many different projects. And, you know, you just go one to the other and, and What's strange about the business is you'll ended up with having choices. Because it all comes at once Of course, you have a voice, and then all of a sudden, you have four different directions to go and, and you're choosing for your career, do I want to go work for the art department? You know, when you're PA, they have you do different things? Do they want to work in the accounting department? Do I want to work with the assistant directors? And or do I want to work in camera so so that's a, you know, important decisions. And you always wonder, you know, if you went the right direction, if you made the right decision, the producer can on that first show kind of helped me make the right decision. Because I admit, I've worked with cameras, and I made films in college, and I said, I wanted to be a camera system, I want to be a loader, which was the bottom

Alex Ferrari 16:02
loading level. Now please explain to to the younger audience members what a loader does, because I know what a loader does, but

Vince Gonzalez 16:10
right back then, you know, the loader actually loaded the film in a darkroom offset into the camera, so you can't do it on the Saturday or in a bag or in a bag get dark. I mean, if you open it any lights exposed, it's no good. It's, that's what they say. flashed like the film got flashed or something, if it was exposed to any light, it'd be no good. So the loader had to go off set and

Alex Ferrari 16:38
very stressful, I would imagine.

Vince Gonzalez 16:41
The most important job,

Alex Ferrari 16:43
I it's truly, like, literally, there's millions of dollars in your hands. Every day, because if you and I know this, because I was on set many times that, you know, he would, they would hand you over, you know, you know, roll and they might have just shot, you know, might have cost $100,000 to shoot that, you know, five hours or whatever long it took to get this these shots, and to give it to give it to a 20 year old.

Vince Gonzalez 17:09
the least amount of experience, hey, make sure you load and unload this film without flashing it. And then at the end of the day, after you shot the entire day, which might be a $100,000 day, Rihanna to a PA to drive it to the lab. And every producer said to me when I drove them to the lab, he said, if you have an accident, put the film in the ambulance.

Alex Ferrari 17:33
Yeah, I think that was one part of the filmmaking process that I think wasn't thought out properly. Over the course of the many decades that film industry has been around at this point.

Vince Gonzalez 17:47
Weren't jobs to the least experienced people? Yes.

Alex Ferrari 17:49
Is that what it's I mean, it's trial by fire, to say the least. So you know, one of the funniest thing is I had an old dp friend of mine who used to, just to mess with the, the PA, they would, he would throw a lens at them to catch, but it was a broken lens, it was an old broken lens, it had no value, but he just throw it like your catch. And when they drop it, he would lose it. It's just the onset pranks.

Vince Gonzalez 18:15
Yeah, that there may be, you know, the responsibility on his skin given to those people, because I guess you know, you want a film crew, you are ultimately very responsible for your position from the beginning.

Alex Ferrari 18:28
Oh, yes. Oh, no, absolutely. Now you went down the path of assistant directing. And so can you tell? tell the audience a little bit about what an assistant director does? And then the different kind of assistant directors because there There seems to be hundreds of them?

Vince Gonzalez 18:45
Yeah. Well, the an assistant director is part of the Directors Guild, which is part of the directors team. So there's a director and a first assistant director and a second assistant director, and, you know, various other assistant directors be below that that might work on the team, but there's only usually maybe three assistant directors on every feature film, so it's a very competitive position, whereas there might be 10 grips, seven to 10 grips, you know, or seven to 10 electricians, or four or five prop people, or four or five wardrobe people, you know, the the three assistant directors are very competitive, they're picked by the director most of the time to, to schedule and break down the film, what we do is we they give us a script and we go into a room and in the next day, we come out or a couple days or a couple of weeks, and we come out with a schedule and the director. We've talked to him or her and we asked him you know, basically this is our schedule. We're going to start in this room. We're going to do this, depending on an actor's availabilities, depending on the sets availabilities, depending on daylight or not Right, so you have all these meetings during prep. But we come out the first date, he makes a schedule, the second ad helps execute the schedule for him. And if you have a second second ad is what they call it seems odd, but that's the way it's read. And that person kind of writes a production report and about what happened, someone's dealing with the future, one's dealing with the president, one's dealing with the past.

Alex Ferrari 20:27
Oh, that's, that's actually a really great way of explaining it.

Vince Gonzalez 20:31
I hope it makes sense.

Alex Ferrari 20:34
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Vince Gonzalez 20:45
But, you know, we're like the managers of the set. So we're giving information to the crew constantly, and also keeping track of overtime and keeping track of staying on schedule. So if the movies not on schedule, it really comes down on the assistant directors to be efficient,

Alex Ferrari 21:02
right? I've had I've had experiences working with wonderful assistant directors like yourself, and I've had experiences working with not good assistant directors. And I really didn't never knew early in my career, I really didn't understand what a real good first assistant director does. But they crack the whip they actually keep they keep everything moving forward. To a certain extent, I could only imagine, because you've worked with some major major league directors, how how do you crack the whip on a Michael Bay?

Vince Gonzalez 21:34
You know, it comes down, he wants the same thing you do, he wants to accomplish all the schedule, as well as get the performance. So it's up to us to tell him Hey, in his five minutes that we have down, do you want to take the actors from the next scene and go into the other set and rehearse for for those five minutes and get an idea of what you're doing so that when we go over there, we can just nail it. And, and things like that, just try and work ahead and use every minute that you can on on the day because if you don't, you know it gets behind it. We put it this way, sometimes, if you know if you have 60 people on the crew, usually the cruiser on bigger shows or 120 or 150. But let's say a medium, small TV show. And if you have 60 people on the show, and each person gets two minutes to waste, or you're waiting for them for two minutes, I mean, that ends up to be two hours of the day, right? So so you can't afford that. Everything has to be happening like clockwork all at once. It's got to tick like a Swiss clock,

Alex Ferrari 22:39
right? And if not, you go into OT and you start going into I mean, like I was telling you like when I worked with with the first ad I was shooting something in the first ad was inexperienced, and I smelled it. The second he was on set and it was too late. By the time he was on set, and the crew ate him alive. Just it just ate them alive. And I literally had to pull them off something like Dude, you've gotta start controlling this set. If not, I can't get my day. And then it turns into the screaming first at which which is like not helpful at all. Like, like you use yelling is not helping anybody. No one it doesn't work. So I had them like Dude, you got to stop you. So he had absolutely no idea what he was doing. And I was just so upset at the production manager who hired him. I'm like, guys go seriously, you know, so, you know, I ended up having to kind of control the set a little bit, because with a season crew I mean it we really are events kind of like carnies. You know, it's like we're a group of Carnival folk who go out to make a movie. And the more experienced guys will Raz. The least experienced guys it's just part of the process. And you know, when you walk on the set, they smell the blood instantly. They're like oh, oh hey, he's the one so it's it's it's a rough it's a rough environment being on a professional set. Sometimes if you're not a professional.

Vince Gonzalez 23:59
I said it's a tough it's a tough crowd and they're all very smart. And they're all experts at what they do. Right? And nobody wants to waste time wasted. Yes, so

Alex Ferrari 24:07
Exactly, exactly. So now I'm gonna geek out a little bit and talk about one of my favorite TV shows on on TV right now The Walking Dead and you worked on the walking dead in season two and three. So please can't Can I Can you tell me a little bit about how that experience was because you were at the you're at the beginning of the Walking Dead phenomenon. Now it's I don't even know what season I think they're on six or something like that five or six. if not more, and they've become you know, the I honestly I think they are the like the biggest, highest highest rated television show on on TV at this point, if not close to it. But at the beginning, even Season Two was still the craziness hadn't kicked in yet. So you kind of saw it's between two and three. I'm imagining you saw a big change in a lot of stuff that was going on. Can you tell us any stories or How that experience was?

Vince Gonzalez 25:02
Well, I'll start I'll start at the beginning. And even after 20 years experience, this is how getting the job goes. I'm, I'm I'm coming. I'm flying to Colorado. I just finished a week on. I'm stumbling here. A show. The Motorcycle Show.

Alex Ferrari 25:24
Oh, God. Yeah, yeah. Sons of Anarchy. Thank you.

Vince Gonzalez 25:29
So I'm, I just got off a plane, I'd done a weekend Sons of Anarchy, doing a second unit and additional for unit stuff. And I get off the plane in in Colorado where I was going to take a break. And my phone has a message on it. And I checked the message, it says, How soon Are you available and interested in working on a show in Atlanta? How soon can you be here? Well, it's Memorial Day weekend. And I called him right back on the tarmac and said, my bag is still packed. Why? Right now? You know, I'm in Denver, you know, booked me a ticket, I'll go. And that's kind of how these jobs go. Because he they said, Alright, you've got the job. But we'll do. We'll let you have memorial day off. You'll fly on Memorial Day, by the way. And be here for the day after that. Okay, great. And I said, What am I doing? And she said, it's a little show called The Walking Dead. And you're replacing a second ad there. And I said, Okay, great. So I'm coming in with no prep, you know, you have no idea what the job is. And I had agreed to it. You had no, but you knew the person, obviously, who was offering it to you. No, I mean, this was someone that I just met on the phone. Oh, really? Are you interested in available for this show? And I said, Yes. And then I then I say, well, by the way, what's the show?

Alex Ferrari 26:51
Right? And that you had no idea about zombies. You had no idea about?

Vince Gonzalez 26:55
You know, I'd heard about the show. In Season One, it was really starting to gain some ground. Of course, there's a big little zombie show going on. And they said, Well, this is called The Walking Dead. It's in Atlanta. And like, is that that song we show? I don't know. So I got on the plane and I flew in and, and I plan on replacing a second ad who was going off to do something else and and my first dance that I walk on to in season two, the barn massacre. The man,

Alex Ferrari 27:30
by the way, spoiler alerts.

Vince Gonzalez 27:33
Let's see season two. So it's the past but I get out of the van. And these guys are pouring jugs of blood on around people who are lying on the ground. And then I realized some of those people are dummies, and they're pouring blood around the dummies. And these It looks like a train wreck. You know, like a train in a school bus or something. It was a mess.

Alex Ferrari 27:57
This is your first day that said first

Vince Gonzalez 27:59
day on now, my eyes must have been as big as you know, chocolate chip cookies because the DP or the the camera operator comes up to me, Mike cetera zammis who's now the DP and the director. He comes up puts his arm around he says, it's your first day, isn't it, buddy? it'll it'll get better. It's funny. Very soon. It's okay. Cuz I look like I was gonna throw up. Oh, that's hilarious. This so? Yeah, after a while you have to you had to just treat it as tongue in cheek because it looks so real. And you're standing here in the middle of this mask. And, and everyone else is laughing and so yeah, yeah, put a little more over there. Look, no, no, we need the darker blood for this one. Okay, great. Okay,

Alex Ferrari 28:45
go grab that arm. Go grab that arm, I need another carcass, get another carcass.

Vince Gonzalez 28:52
So they're all having a great time with it. I was horrified. But you know it after a day or two, it started to sink in that, hey, this is the funnest part of moviemaking where, you know you're making it crazy. It's all about make believe and it's nothing having to do with anything that's real or, or any representative of that. It's just it's a lot of fun making make believe and here we go.

Alex Ferrari 29:13
And it was just and and then they you stayed on for two seasons.

Vince Gonzalez 29:17
We went from there and the actors are going to, to do a photo shoot for Vogue. And they come back and they're like, we just did a photo shoot for Vogue. We just did a photo shoot for Entertainment Weekly. And then they went to Comic Con and they came back and they said, Oh my god, you guys. Oh my god, you won't believe how huge we are. Because we're shooting in this tiny little town, south of Atlanta. And they said there was a line a mile and a half outside around the arena just to see us. And we you know, we're all being proud of that.

Alex Ferrari 29:54
That's pretty and I've heard that before from other shows. It was like I think Sarah Michelle Geller said that about Buffy because when she originally was doing Luffy they're in you're in a you're in a production bubble like you were your whole life. You don't even see the outside world you just you just keep making the show. Right? And then the first time you step out you don't even like you're not even on the streets. You're not even reading the paper like you just to show that's all you do. And that's I guess we have time for right right. It's all you have time for and then I guess from their point of view, they're in Atlanta, so they're in the they're not like in Hollywood. So you're in Atlanta, so you're in a bubble inside of a bubble. And then like like yeah, somewhat I guess we just did a photoshoot for Vogue I guess something and Oh yeah, did a photo shoot for entertainment and then of course Comic Con is the ultimate and they're like I could only imagine that experience it must be insane so then of course you guys are like hey we're on Walking Dead That's awesome.

Vince Gonzalez 30:50
Well you know we just keep making making the thing and all the actors are great young cast who you know may not have had a lot of big big shows before right and these kids were becoming stars and to be with them while they're becoming stars was a great experience and it's a lot of fun because you're sharing that experience with them you know that wonder of of wow people really like us and someone's out there you know there's millions of people watching us and the show gets bigger and bigger and pretty soon we're our ratings are better than Monday Night Football or Sunday Sunday night NFL shows which which you know, I don't know did you read all these beat everything

Alex Ferrari 31:33
right but this show like the show's insane and it's gotten bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and I know you told me you haven't seen many of the episodes after the episode you've worked on so I won't talk to you about any of those

Vince Gonzalez 31:44
okay yeah I get busy I went on to the to the next hit show I was exploring other opportunities and in in that you know, I'm back in my production bubble where date day night and I'm eating sleeping drinking the show right? The way I have to work it's it's what we got to do.

Alex Ferrari 32:03
Exactly now. What was it I mean, the Walking Dead is a show that has a lot of logistics as far as extras and makeup and I mean a prosthetic it's so that must be for first or second ad must be a massive thing to undertake because I couldn't I mean just doing a normal show where you just have you know I got how many people on set today Okay, we've got seven people on set maybe we've got maybe a party scene with 30 or 40 people on set and they just oh how are they dressed? Great, great, great, but you've got like zombies so all of the zombies look insane so I can imagine what the makeup process goes through. So can you explain like the most hectic day you had on the show?

Vince Gonzalez 32:48
Well Well it's it's true walking onto that show was walking on to the hardest show that I've ever done in my life because because of all those elements I mean you have a cast that was 11 or 13 cast members every single day from the top of the day to the end of the day they are all together you know they're the banner and everything and then you add two hours of makeup on various walkers that are going to be in close up here on here I have another 30 walkers that are meds is what we call them and then you have you know the deep walkers if you really needed a big crowd that need to have a number of them that were deep that their makeup wasn't as good as the as the heroes right. So that process starts way early in the morning and these people were starting to come in at 330 in the morning and when I got there I said this this process is this is too hard to have a TV show if we had a feature we could get through it because then there'd be months of rest after a couple of weeks. But this is the only TV show that had six months to go or something and you know someone was going to crash your car on the way to work or on the way home because you're not getting rest right so so I talked to the producers and I said we need to fix this we can't come in at 330 in the morning to get these people started without adding 10 more personnel to do split shafts so a kind of a management thing and an experience thing and and I just said listen this is we can make this work if we start coming in at 530 if we only have nine heroes at the top of the day, and I can still give you 13 cast members you know it's kind of what what I know that we can push out of our factory as far as hair makeup wardrobe and and walkers. And the producers I was lucky that producers work with me on that everyone was glad to get another hour or two of rest. And the show only gets better when everyone's well rested. So right Oh

Alex Ferrari 34:51
yeah, cuz you can burn on a show like that and imagine you could burn out and not only burn out but you're thinking about people getting hurt like you like That's what first day DNS is a second do they think about what could happen and what you know like something like that like I remember I've been on many productions where like we can do a turnaround like that people need 12 hour turnaround you know you know and you're thinking like if you keep doing this someone's gonna crash their car someone's gonna get hurt

Vince Gonzalez 35:17
right and that's that's and we're making movies we're not we're not doing anything that's more important than a little bit of make believe so so they understand and and that reasoning went far and the Plus we're dealing with outdoor conditions you know, we're shooting out rash dad's waist high

Alex Ferrari 35:38
and it's a little humid I hear it's a little humid there

Vince Gonzalez 35:41
a little bit more humid now the temperature is only about 101 you know for most it's like

Alex Ferrari 35:46
Orlando all the time.

Vince Gonzalez 35:50
Like I luckily no gators

Alex Ferrari 35:53
yeah no gators Yeah, that's Yeah, we have you know 1000s of zombies so I don't know which is worse.

Vince Gonzalez 35:59
Right? Now wait, I just have to hand it to the cast and and and even the actors the walkers because they were so excited about the show. They come on with all this enthusiasm and, and the actors are standing in the grass, in text in chiggers. Yeah. And you know, we'd have the locations go down and beat down the grass. So that's the snakes would go away. These are things it's only 101 degrees out and humid. So

Alex Ferrari 36:26
but isn't it isn't a glamorous being in the film industry? Yeah.

Vince Gonzalez 36:29
It's just great.

Alex Ferrari 36:30
It's super glamorous being in if I don't understand what you're saying. You know, and hearing this kind of story, people forget that when they're watching it, they just like it. Like, it's not easy. It's not all like in a studio, comfortable air conditioning. They're out there doing it all the time. And there's actors kill themselves. Working I mean, look in the scope of scope of jobs in the world is not the worst job in the world. But it is hard work without question. And I can only imagine what it's like being in those, that full zombie makeup in 101 degrees in

Vince Gonzalez 37:04
Trying not to melt

Alex Ferrari 37:06
more, not more. Because already metaphor.

Vince Gonzalez 37:10
And the actors aren't going to, you know, these gigantic motor homes where they can go cool off in between takes, because we're moving so fast and doing so much work. And the trailers are a mile away, that they're sitting on set with us, you know, sweating through their clothes, just like everyone else. And that's what what makes them makes the show great, is because the cast works just as hard as their crew on on doing their thing. And they know what it's like so so they're there for us.

Alex Ferrari 37:41
Right? So it's kind of like a an army regimen. Like you guys are all fighting in the battle together against the elements to try to get this movie made. And it's

Vince Gonzalez 37:52
it's an experience that that you have you you have few experiences in life that are like that, where you something is so hard, and everyone goes through it, that you're bonded for life,

Alex Ferrari 38:03
right? You even though you only work on season that only but you worked on season two and three,

Vince Gonzalez 38:07
it's people are great friends of mine, right. And I see them once in a while at a comic con or a walker stock. And the experience we've gone through never goes away where you know, your friends for life, you're bonded.

Alex Ferrari 38:21
And that's something I think in, in the film industry is unique, in a way because when you when you make a movie, when you shoot a show, it's like going into a battle together. And and when you both make it out, or all of you make it out on the other side. You know, you and I are at the beginning of this conversation we're talking about, you know, a week that we shot 10 years ago, you know, like, you know, it is something that like, Oh, you remember when we did this, and that happened and we made it there is there is a you know, like a bond that is made in production. And then that's why certain people work with the same crew throughout their career like Clint Eastwood, Ron Howard. And, you know, when you find people you can kind of really work with, you take them with you. And you just,

Vince Gonzalez 39:10
yeah, you trust you trust them in situations that you don't want to be in without them. Right? Like if

Alex Ferrari 39:17
you're exactly like if you're in a foxhole, who do you want someone you just you just hired or someone who's been in the battle with you three or four other times, and that's where those relationships are so, so important. Where it just, those relationships are so important, not only for getting work, but also creating good work going down the line. So, so important. Now I'll ask one final question or walking down and then we'll move on, is what's the funniest story you can share from the set?

Vince Gonzalez 39:45
Oh, well, um, you know, there's pranks all the time. There's stuff going on all the time. And humor is really the only way we get through it and you really have to laugh every day. Are you, you know, you wonder why you're doing this business, if you're not laughing every day, I'm having a good time with it, you know, find something else but that are maybe that's what keeps us in it is because we are having such a good time every day. But I would go on a scout some of the funny stuff is, is I'll tell you two things, we'd go on a scout with a new director who hadn't been there. And we'd be standing on the side of the road and, and the director would walk into the field and say the scenes gonna be up here. And he'd say, why don't you guys come out here and we're, we're all standing on the road saying, No, I don't think so. Just Come on, guys. We're gonna do the scene out here. And we like yeah, we understand we've we've seen enough. And he's, he's like you sure you know what commander? We're like? No, because that field is full of ticks and chiggers and snakes. And he's like, Oh, I'm only out here for for two minutes. And he's already walking back to the road at that point, because we scared him. And the next day, he's got chiggers on his beltline, and he's itching and he's missed. Because you know, yeah. So you know, that's, that's one of the funny stories and then you know, another one is we're doing we're going to smash a walkers head and they load the walkers head up with a bunch of bloody gUc gak and, and stringy bits of whatever the magic they put in there. And everyone backs up about 15 feet. And I actually is ready to smash it in the director standing right there. And he looks at us back there and he's like, Hey, what are you guys doing back there? And we're like, nothing. Nothing. He was okay, actually smash splatter all over his pants on. And we're just writing sweat. And we're like, you know, yeah, we've been here before. We don't need to get blood all over us every day. So it seems like you guys need to read

Alex Ferrari 42:06
is every time a new director game? Yeah, I was gonna every time a new director came in. Apparently you guys just razz

Vince Gonzalez 42:12
them. Yeah, it's it's initiations.

Alex Ferrari 42:17
Now can you tell me a big difference between working on a TV show, and working on big huge tentpole movies like Transformers or Pearl Harbor,

Vince Gonzalez 42:25
TV shows me crank out a lot of work a day, we crank out probably seven or eight minutes of the show a day, because you only have a seven or an eight day schedule. And a feature might have a 65 day schedule, if it's a trend. It's a big movie, and they can go over a week if they need to. Of course, they don't ever want to, they don't ever want to because your budgets for a certain amount of time. But we shoot a lot less dialogue. Because you can spend more time on the action action takes, you know, action, an action scene where you flip a car, something might take half a day, compared to the actors talking for two minutes in the car, beforehand that might take you know, just a couple hours. So it's all kind of the art of scheduling inanimate things, right?

Alex Ferrari 43:25
So Vince, can you tell me what what lesson took you the longest to learn in the film industry?

Vince Gonzalez 43:31
Oh my gosh, you know, there's so many and I always think that you know, I might be successful because I made so many mistakes. So you can't be afraid to make mistakes and you can't be afraid to get have someone you know teach you a quick lesson by you know, I hate to say that I've been I've been yelled at the most I think for for the many many things for giving information wrong or not. or giving not giving it completely or giving it to the wrong person and the department head or you know, any silly mistake someone new in the business is going to make you know they have to be taught what's the right way. So you have to have a thick skin and It's nothing personal and don't take it home at the end of the day. If you've got your if you get beat up all day because you know, that's part of the learning process and those people end up being the best, the best people to work with because they have made those mistakes and they won't make them again, I guarantee you so let me ask you a real quick Vince where can people find you begins always calm or visit Gonzalez Denver Comic Con page on Facebook. Vince man

Alex Ferrari 44:41
Thanks again so much for taking the time out to talk to the indie film hustle tribe. I really appreciate it brother.

Vince Gonzalez 44:45
Hey Alex. Yeah. Appreciate you haven't been Thanks a lot.

Alex Ferrari 44:51
Vince is man a wealth of information and he was dropping value bombs like crazy in this episode, and it was so much fun to listen to how The cast and crew of walking dead were at the very beginning of the phenomenon. It's always interesting to meet house how to see how they were and how kind of in a bubble they were down in Atlanta shooting. So it was great to have Vince on so I really appreciate him coming on. If you guys want the show notes for the show, just head over to indiefilmhustle.com/063 you can get links for everything we've talked about in this show. And don't forget to head over to filmmakingpodcast.com, that's filmmakingpodcast.com to leave a review of the show, hopefully a positive one. It really helps us out a lot guys, it helps to get more eyes and ears on to what we're doing at indie film, hustle, and help more and more independent filmmakers around the world. So filmmaking, podcast, calm. Thank you guys, as always, for being loyal, loyal listeners to the show. The podcast is growing like weeds. It's insane how fast it's growing, and how the listener base is growing. So guys, thank you so much for listening. I really humbled the appreciate everything you guys do. So please spread the word. I want more filmmakers to be listening to not only my podcast, but there's a bunch of good filmmaking podcasts out there as well, that week that that give a lot of great information. So I want more and more filmmakers to know that there's great information and knowledge on podcasts. So thanks again guys. Keep the hustle going. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

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