IFH 076: How to Blaze Your Own Path in the Film Industry

Have you been banging your head against the wall trying to figure out what you need to do to break into the film industry? Me too. This episode is dedicated to all the indie filmmakers out there trying to make a living as a filmmaker.

After studying so many success stories of directors, writers, producers, and actors who finally broke through and made it into the exclusive party I found one common denominator among every single one of them.

I discuss that truth and make a major announcement to the Indie Film Hustle Tribe about what I’ll be doing over the next year and how it applies to the topic of “Blazing Your Own Path in the Film Industry.”

THIS IS MEG, Jill Michele-Meleán, Indie Film Hustle, Seed and Spark, Crowdfunding, Micro budget film, director alex Ferrari, alex Ferrari

If your a bit lost or just keep running into walls trying to make it as a filmmaker then this is the podcast you need to listen to. I hope you find some value in it. Good luck!

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:00
Well my indie film hustlers This is a special episode. It's an episode I've been wanting to talk about for quite some time, and I'm going to be brutally honest. In this episode, I've probably more honest than I've ever been, in any of my podcasts, hard to believe I know, because I'm fairly honest with all my podcasts, but I'm a guy who's been in this business for over 20 years now. And my dream has always been to direct a feature film, to direct feature films to make a living, directing feature films. Now I do direct commercials, I do direct music videos. And you know, I do my post production through numb robot and all that good stuff. And I'm always around the business. And obviously, I do a lot with indie film hustle, now to help you guys out. But you know, at the end of the day, what got me up in the morning. And what gets me up in the morning is the dream of shooting a feature film, and, and making expressing myself as an artist, especially expressing myself as a director. And I've been chasing that specific dream for over 20 years. And since ever since I was 18 years old, or actually 17 or 16, something like that. And I looked around my my room and I had over 3000 VHS tapes on it. And I said you know what, I'm going to be a director. And from that moment on, I've been chasing the dream of directing feature films ever since. And the technology has changed over time, attitudes have changed. You know, a lot of different things have changed from the moment that I started that dream to now. And I know that I'm not the only one everybody listening to this podcast, I would imagine have the same dream, they want to direct they want to express themselves as an artist. And it's so hard to find the path to take to get to that dream because it's not like a doctor. It's not like a lawyer that you go you do the court you like hey, if you want if I know right now that if there was a school somewhere that said, Hey, if you pay us X amount of dollars, you're going to be in school for seven years, you're going to learn from the Masters, when you get out, you're guaranteed a job making this kind of movie or this kind of TV show or you're going to do it and you're guaranteed right off the bat like a doctor is you know, you go through residency and so there is nothing like that for our business. And because of that everyone's always lost trying to figure out which path to go. And the biggest trap that I fell into is that you need this certain camera to shoot your movie or this actor. If this thing isn't in place, I can't move my I can't move forward. Or if I don't have this kind of distribution, or if I don't have this kind of budget. I can't make a movie. It's all absolute bullshit. You have the power right now to go and tell your story. Go and make your movie. And you should have no one tell you that there are rules in this game in this filmmaking journey. There are no rules you've got to do it yourself. And that was the biggest false hood I fell into and only within the last year that I start figuring it out doing indie film hustle that it is BS. It is bullshit and I don't want anyone listening to this podcast to fall for this trap? And then you study all of these people who've made it so I've studied everybody I mean, I've really gone after every kind of model I've gone after creating the short film The big visual effects short film to get attention to see if I get a feature made down that path. I went another short film to which had a script ready that had a full business plan ready to make that movie didn't go well. Didn't go didn't go through. And I know I'm not alone. I know all you guys have. I mean, there's 1000 stories in the Naked City, as they say about filmmakers, you know, being attached to projects and so on. And I've been I'm no different than any of you guys in that sense. But, you know, I've studied so many different roads and so many different paths, other filmmakers like you know, at first I was studying Spielberg's path and you know, and Scorsese's path and Coppola's path, and, you know, the you start figuring out that, you know, then came the next generation, which would be the Robert Rodriguez, the Kevin Smith's the Spike Lee's, the, the Rick, Rick, Richard Linklater, all these guys, and you're like, what did they do? How did they get in, and boom, boom, boom, and you just start trying to figure out the game. And unfortunately, for me, I got caught up in that for many years, if not decades, at this point in the game, trying to figure out what the game is, what's the end, what's the secret sauce, to get into open that door to get funding for your movie, or just to be able to get your dream up on the screen for you to be able to do what you want to do in life. And that was the mistake I made, I kept following all these people, you know, very closely studying their techniques, what they did, not as much their filmmaking techniques, but more their path and the business trying to break in. You know, and, and a lot of times I got stuck on you know, that the Robert Rodriguez story, the mythological Robert Rodriguez story, they made a $7,000 action movie, you know, and got, you know, got an agent, and he went on to do studio movies, and now he is who he is. But that story's from 1992. You know, that doesn't exist now. Steven Spielberg story is from the 70s, it doesn't exist now. You know, Tarantino story is from the 90s, it doesn't exist. Now. Same thing with Kevin Smith, like, you know, these guys coming up now would be it'd be different. Technology has changed, attitudes have changed, everything changed, the landscape is changing, changing almost daily, in regards to how people are making an end in the business. So again, my, my dream has always been to DirectX. So I decided to, instead of looking at other people's paths, I finally this year decided to start looking at my own and start creating my own and of course, take little bits of information from other people. But stop waiting for other people to give me permission to make a movie. And I decided to make my own movie, and blaze my own path, the path that is distinct to me and my resources and my story and my abilities. And you know, because I'll never be Francis Ford Coppola, who's going to UCLA film school, when film schools are just starting out, and barely any competition out there, and he shows up, and he starts directing studio movies, because that was the way it was not that he's obviously one of the greatest directors of all time. But that's his story. That's how he got in, you know, James Cameron story and so many other people's stories, you know, they all have their path, they all have their way, you know, I mean, James Cameron made a little short film that a bunch of dentist financed back in the day, I'm gonna put that up later on, on the blog, I have a whole post on that, that short film, but like, That's his path. That's the journey that he went on, and to stop trying to simulate other people's journey and start creating my own. And unfortunately, it's taken me a long time to learn that lesson. If you get one thing from this podcast, it's that you need to blaze your own trail. Be yourself, don't try. And that's where I think so many of us fail. As filmmakers, we keep trying to be other people. We try to be other artists, we try to go down other paths and don't get me wrong, some of those paths are are doable, you can do it and work. But I feel at least in in my soul that if you blaze your own path and do you, you have much more success than if you try to be somebody else, or go down a path that somebody else has already blazed. Because that might just be well worn and there's a gluttony of people on that path. The path that I'm gonna take is go alone, nobody's on that path. Now, that might be a scary thing that might be ignorant and dumb thing for me to do. But at least I feel that that is the right thing for me to do as an artist. And I suggest that all of you do something similar. Just do what you can blaze your path on what you want to do and how you want to do it. Now take from other people's past like a hopefully you guys are going to go on this journey with me. And you're going to see how I do it. And maybe that will inspire you to do something on your own on the way you can do it within the resources and the abilities that you have at the place you are in time right now in your careers in your journey. One of the stories that I heard and I and by the way, I learned this story specifically because I was providing service to you guys, I do a tremendous amount of research, and look for stories, ideas, inspirations for all of you to move forward in your career. And while I was doing this research, I found this amazing film, and story about how he made this film from one of our former guests on the show Michael Polish with his movie for lovers only where he went. And if you haven't heard that episode, it's Episode 69 go to indie film hustle.com for slash zero 69. It's an amazing one of the best interviews I've ever done on the on the podcast, really, really wonderful stuff. But that story of how he was able to just take his DSLR go and shoot a movie with no money and release the movie. And again, he had access to a wonderful actress. He had relationships that he had, he had gear that he brought on, which was his DSLR, he had, you know, he had these really these resources at his disposal to make his movie. And that's all you can do. Now, whether you're Josh Wheaton, who made his little indie film called Much Ado About Nothing based on Shakespeare's play, he took what resources he had, which were, you know, more substantial than many of us, he has relationships with a ton of amazing actors. So he brought all of those actors in, they worked for barely anything, and he shouted out his house, you know, so to a certain extent, he's doing what we would do, but he's using what he has at his disposal, and you can't hate the man or hate anybody for doing what they have, you know, using the resources he has, it's your responsibility. As a director, as a filmmaker, as an artist to use the resources, knowledge and experience, you have to tell your story. And that's what both Michael and and Joss really kind of inspired me to do with the project that I am currently working on now. And the announcement that I wanted to talk about a little bit is the movie I'm going to make I'm gonna make a movie called This is Meg. It is a comedy drama. And it stars Julie Michelle milyon, who is a stand up comic who was on mad TV, Reno, 911, and a million other things that she's been on. And she's a really dear friend of mine and an insane talent, a talent that has not been allowed to shine, Julie not allowed to shine yet, not to her full extent. And that is what I wanted to do with this movie. We are putting together an insane cast of amazing actors. And we're going to make a movie, I'm going to shoot it myself. We're going to shoot it on the Blackmagic Cinema Camera, we're going to go through the entire process of this micro budget. And when I say micro, I'm talking about micro budget film. And you know, after after looking at the technology the way it is today, and what it really takes to make a movie and the resources I have at my disposal. I was like you know what, I can go make a movie. And wouldn't it be awesome if I can make this movie and take the tribe along with me to see the entire process of how I make this movie. warts and all, you know, ups and downs, so on so forth. And I'm like I would kill for that. Like I would kill to watch another filmmaker. Go through the entire process like literally and ask questions, not just look at it in a voyeuristic way. Set up a place where you can ask questions, see how it pertains to your own projects, and see if the path that I create is a path that can help other filmmakers succeed which is again, what I wanted to do with indie film hustle, I wanted to help other filmmakers succeed in what they're trying to do. And I'm sorry I'm getting a little choked up about this because I'm really passionate about what I am doing with not only this project but with helping you guys you know, I really miss I really want to help and I really want other people to get to the place that they want to be. As a filmmaker as an artist, you know, I I could have focused on a million other topics but the topic that I was put on this earth to talk about was film by filmmaking. And that's what I love. And other people are business other people are, you know, marketing other people or a million other things. But for me, my my core, my group of people that I want to help is storytellers are filmmakers are people who want to get their stories out there and succeed and survive and thrive, as I say, in the business and make a living doing this. So I wanted to create a project. And not only one, but multiple, but this is our first and show people that you can go out and make a movie and sell a movie and make money with a movie and crowdfund to get a budget for the movie. And go out there and be an artist and hopefully make money doing it and serve and sustaining yourself as an artist, and going out and doing it and and there's other people who've done this many ways, many different roads to the same path, whether it's being hired by a studio to do you know, the next Marvel movie, or just a working filmmaker who makes a good living making his indie films or her indie films, and, and just going about their daily business of being an artist and a filmmaker. And, you know, look, I know a lot of you have gone down this path of looking at other filmmakers and seeing how they do and oh my gosh, you should, you should learn from everybody else, see what other people are doing and go down that path. You know how many people have probably picked up an iPhone and said, I'm gonna go make a movie on my iPhone, because they saw Shaun Baker do it. And when Sundance with it with tangerine, you know, that's great. But is that going to be your specific path? I don't know. Maybe it's doing something else. Maybe it's doing a web series, that maybe it's doing a you know, a short, or maybe it's doing a feature or whatever that is, but all these paths that you're studying, all these people that you're studying that are ahead of you are not ahead of you, but are at a different place in their journey. That on the filmmaking journey, they inspire you know how many filmmaking careers were inspired by Kurosawa john Ford, Steven Spielberg, Martin Scorsese, Francis Ford Coppola, Stanley Kubrick, Warner, Hertzog you know, and and all of these amazing directors, you know, Robert Rodriguez, can you my generation, a lot of people, I know directors that are working in the business, I know that Robert Rodriguez, Quentin Tarantino, Kevin Smith, Spike Lee, all those directors, all those guys inspire generations, they might have not gone down the same exact path as those directors, but inspire them to go on their own path, or take a little bit from each of their story and, and blaze their own path. And that's what we're here to do. And that's what you should be doing blazing your own path, not only as a filmmaker on the business side, but as an artist, and in listening to your voice. Because we don't want another Stanley Kubrick, we don't want another Steven Spielberg, we want you, we want you as a filmmaker, to express your point of view, and whatever kind of story that is, whether that be a slasher horror movie, an action thriller, a comic book, film, a documentary, a comedy or drama, whatever. But it has to be your perspective has to be who you are your as they say, your stank. Your, your secret sauce, you have to have your stank all over it. And I mean that in the most positive way possible. Because when you see a Stanley Kubrick movie, you see his stank everywhere what you see is Spielberg or Scorsese movie, you see his think everywhere. And that's your job as an artist, as a Picasso as a da Vinci, you have to put your secret sauce in whatever you do. So with all of this said, guys, I hope that you go on the journey with me, it's going to be going on over the next year. But it's going to come really quickly. We are going to start crowdfunding for this in about three weeks, give or take, we're going to be crowdfunding through seed and spark.com. So you can see the entire process of what I go through with seed and spark how I do it, how they do their thing. A lot of people ask why aren't you using Kickstarter, Indiegogo? I love seed and spark. I love what Emily best and their entire team does for filmmakers. And I want to only support them, but only on a selfish standpoint, they have a 78% success rate, which is almost double what Kickstarter and Indiegogo are. So we're going to be going after raising $15,000 for part of the production of the film. And we're going to see what we can get where you're going to see a full crowdfunding campaign on how I do it, how we do the pitch video how we do the the whole layout of the of the pitch page how we run campaign for the 30 days that we're going to run it, what kind of things are we going to be doing the incentives, the whole ball of wax. I am working right now with seed and spark to create a series, a crowdfunding podcast series to give even more detail and more in depth stuff about the process. Because I think crowdfunding is such a powerful thing. But there's so much noise, like in every aspect of our business right now that you have to be really strategic and really good at what you're doing to even cut through. So I'm hoping that what we do will be successful, and you'll be able to see if we were successful, or if we were not successful. And you'll see what we did right, and you'll see what we did wrong. But that's part of the journey. Now. And also to help us make this movie, I'm creating the full access membership site on indie film hustle, where you will have for a monthly fee, we're going to do a three month fee of six months, a year long fee, which allows you to come in and be part of a very exclusive community inside of indie film hustle. Now this community, you will have access to a ton of tutorial videos, over 10 to 15 hours worth of tutorial videos on filmmaking from our courses from filmmaking hacks, social media courses, like Twitter hacks, all and see different courses from the film festival hacks and other places like that. So you can see a ton of content there all the time. And I'll be adding content to there all the time, I have courses coming up that I'm working on to add more value to the full access site. And in there, you will have access to me as well as to Google Hangout we're going to be trying to do twice a month during the process of making this as Meg. And that whole process, you'll be able to see where we're going ask questions, we kind of all get together, ask questions and talk about the process and how it applies to your movie. So you're basically getting almost consulting on your movie through this process. It's really really, I mean, I would have killed for something like this, I would kill for now just to see how somebody else has gone through this path. And in today's world in like right now 2016 world. But the wonderful thing about full access is that it's going to continue to grow throughout the years. So as I continue to do movies, I'm going to continue to add content and content and content to this where it becomes an amazing resource for people. And any of the money that goes into this will go into helping us make this movie. So we will have those as part of the incentives of our crowdfunding campaign. So you'll get super crazy deals. If you join us with a contribution on our crowdfunding campaign you will have different accesses to and special things to full access as well. So I hope you guys are excited about this. If you want to be part of the full access membership site, you can always go to indie film, hustle comm forward slash full access, and you can sign up to be notified when it goes live, it hopefully will be going live in the next four to six weeks, I'm going to be creating content and getting everything up there which is going to take time, and I want to make sure I launch it properly. Make sure you guys have plenty of good stuff in there. when it launches. It's gonna be super crazy, super valuable, man, I really hope you guys get a lot out of it. Now if you guys want to be part of the launch team for our crowdfunding campaign, and run with us through this entire crowdfunding campaign, you'll learn everything that we do and how we're doing it, you'll have access to us, and be able to talk to us ask questions about the pet campaign. And as part of being a launch team, basically, all you're going to be doing is, you know, when we need you to help tweet something out or talk to your specific audience or groups, get the word out on the campaign, how to do it with tools that we're going to give you all this kind of cool stuff and just really be our ambassadors really help get the word out on the project in a really cool way, and adding value to everybody you talk to. So if you want to be part of that launch team, head over to indie film, hustle, calm, forward slash launch team, that's indie film, hustle calm for slash launch team. And it'll take you to a private Facebook group that we have set up just for this launch team. So thank you so much. I really hope to have you guys on that journey with me. So again, if you want more information about full access indie film, hustle, head over to indie film hustle comm forward slash full access. And if you want to be part of the launch team for my new film, this is mag, head over to indie film hustle.com forward slash launch team. I really hope that this process inspires as many of you as possible to go out and do what you want to do, and follow your dreams. Be that storyteller be that filmmaker, tell us Doors you want to tell and and make a living doing it, which is very, very important as an artist. So I hope this this process inspires you. And to be honest, you know, it would be a scary proposition to be doing this alone, but I know I'm not alone. I've got the indie film hustle tribe here with me on this project and moving forward and I'm there for them and for you guys, at all times as much as I can give you I can give you and anything I find out I'm going to pass along to you guys any secrets I learned along the way. You know me, I always put them out. So, guys, please, as always, keep that hustle going. Keep your dream alive. And I'll talk to you very soon.

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IFH 075: What Does It Really Take to Make in Hollywood with Sebastian Twardosz

Every once in awhile we all need to get a gut check. A “gut check” is when some new situation, or in this case knowledge, that tests your belief on what it takes to achieve your goal.

I invited Sebastian Twardosz to give us that gut check and lay down some major knowledge bombs on the Indie Film Hustle Tribe. Now Sebastian has been playing the Hollywood game for close to two decades and has racked up some major experience. Hollywood and the film business, in general, is a “relationship business“. Here’s what Sebastian said:

“Some of you will be successful and some of you will be less successful—it’s a numbers game, but regardless of the stats, you will likely fail if you don’t help each other.”

Sebastian Twardosz’s first production job was from 1995-1999 for Tom Cruise and Paula Wagner’s Paramount-based company where he started as an assistant and was promoted to an executive, actively participating in the making of Mission Impossible 1-2 and Without Limits.

Like many hopefuls wanting to get into the film biz, Sebastian Twardosz started as an agent’s assistant in the motion picture department at ICM. He graduated from the USC School of Cinematic Arts in 1993. His short film, Silent Rain, received a Student Academy Award from the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences as well as the Student Emmy.

Sebastian co-produced the independent feature Small Town Saturday Night starring Chris Pine, and he has been an adjunct professor at both UCLA and USC Film Schools teaching about the art and business of film since 2006.

He also hosted a weekly show called The Insiders which aims to shed light on the “behind-the-scenes world of Hollywood” for aspiring filmmakers. Sebastian is currently a partner in Circus Road Films, which advises and represents emerging filmmakers. Take a listen to this eye-opening interview.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:30
I like to welcome to the show Sebastian Twardosz. I hope I didn't massacre that last name too much, Sebastian.

Sebastian Twardosz 3:51
It was it was perfect. Actually.

Alex Ferrari 3:54
No problem, man. Thanks for having me having. Thanks for having me on the show. I think I'm glad to have you on the show, man. Thanks for doing the show. I really appreciate it. We, Sebastian I met under interesting circumstances.

Sebastian Twardosz 4:07
Meet all my good friends.

Alex Ferrari 4:09
So I wrote many, many I think at the very almost at the beginning of the film, also I wrote this article about producers reps, and I have my bad experience with one in particular. And and Sebastian is a producer's rep now. He's done many things in the business and we're going to talk all about the stuff he's done in the business but Sebastian actually contacted me and said, Hey, man, you know, we're not all bad. I'm like, I know and then we just started talking I'm like, you know, and I got his perspective on what a real producers rep does a reputable one and what you know what the actual inside of that world is, as opposed to just my horrible experience. But so we're gonna talk a little bit about that and talk a bit about a bunch of the other stuff that Sebastian does. So Sebastian, you did a show on Youtube called the insiders which I have now become addicted to why Because you've got some amazing guests that come on, and you really kind of, you're similar to me in the sense that you kind of you're a straight shooter, you don't Bs, you don't kind of dance around it, you're like, this is what it takes, guys. This is what it really takes and to make it in the business and boom, boom, boom, you ask these kind of questions. So can you talk a little bit about the insiders? tell everybody about it.

Sebastian Twardosz 5:22
Right. Okay. Well, thank you, first of all, for having me on. That's very nice of you to say nice things. So yeah, well, you know, because I do a lot of different things. I mean, I also I teach at USC, I teach another place called National University. I am a producer's rep and you know, I just kind of my you know, I just believe in paying it forward and I try to be helpful to people that's these are really just avenues of being helpful. So the insiders Believe it or not, what's interesting, it goes right back to producer wrapping. If you look us up on IMDB, my co producer on that and director of all the episodes is Kevin hamadani. And we actually represented Kevin's film that's how I met Kevin. He made it true. So this is it all. It's kind of like what you do Alex, you have you do a lot of different things, but they all kind of you know, they're synergistic as they say. Yes, so I met Kevin we represented a film of his it's not the best Title I hate the title, but it's a very good movie. It's called junk. j u n. k.

Alex Ferrari 6:22
It's a rough that's a rough movie to sell.

Sebastian Twardosz 6:24
It's a rough movie just the titles that help us sell this movie but we did we did do a good job in selling them when Kevin was actually very happy hence he did a show with me that goes back to the beginning there are some good rubber good producer reps out there. But anyway so what what his story was if you look up Kevin that movie junk was in a lot of film festivals actually did really well on the festival circuit and he wanted to you know sell it and you know, we we got involved with them and we helped him get his distributor made the deal, etc. And he was very happy with that. And then it was probably about you know, Kevin has gone on to do even additional films and shorts and he's been like in Seattle Film Festival in Austin and Los Angeles from festival etc and other things. He's He's very good you can and watch junk. Oh, I should tell you but the movie is about kind of a burned out filmmaker who goes through the festival circuit.

Alex Ferrari 7:26
I got it. I got actually watched that now.

Sebastian Twardosz 7:28
Yeah, who goes through the whole thing of festivals and also, it's got a fantastic cameo in it. If you if you love movies in the 1980s this as one of the best cameos ever. Great movie, and it's about this filmmakers journey of making his movie, an independent film going through the festival circuit and then getting released. It's literally what we're talking about. Okay, it's a fantastic movie. Really. Okay. Anyway, um, so it's called junk and just just put it everywhere.

Alex Ferrari 7:58
I'll put it I'll put it in the show notes.

Sebastian Twardosz 8:03
Okay. So anyway, so that went that went well. And it was about two years after that. Maybe he he started directing for this YouTube network, YouTube channel called lip TV. And there's some other great shows on there. One of the best shows ever about interview about documentaries. It's called BYOD bring bring your own doc is fantastic. So if you love documentaries, you just go to YouTube and do BYOD anyway, Kevin was directing a lot of these he directed quite a few of the various shows and he asked me if I wanted to do one. Um, and I think he got the idea because I also teach at USC. So here's how this comes full circle because I asked him to be a guest on one of my classes. And we had a great time. Again, no BS, you know, we swear we do all kinds of great stuff in my class, and he had a rockin good time. And so he thought, well, maybe we could put this on the air. Now granted, we can't be quite as loose as we are, you know, setting Sure. He had the idea of doing the show. And I said yes. And the reason I said yes was because of my background, I you know, I know a lot of people like almost everybody on that show. Not everyone, but almost everyone I know, you know, personally or have worked with in some capacity. And I just knew all these people. And a lot of them I was invited to my class. So like, if you go if you Google my name Sebastian toward Oz, and USC, my class pops up and you see all this great list of guest speakers and are saying to myself, you know, this is really cool that I could bring him into class and teach everyone you know, because there's my classes, like two hours of me talking and then two hours of the guest speaker q&a. And so I said, You know, I really wish more people could hear what some what these guys have to say. And so the idea was to just get and I knew a lot of these guests because I've done classes with them. I've had a good rapport with them. So you know, Kevin gave me the opportunity and he said, look, I think I can get you the show on The lip TV and and so I went in to meet with the guys who who run it. This one guy Michael Lustig is the kind of creator, the executive producer of all of it. And they said, Yeah, let's give it a shot. So I did it, we ended up doing 42 episodes, we had to take a break. Because I have a lot going on. There's two reasons we took a break. I also want to do a different version of it, ultimately, but the whole idea of the show was to kind of, you know, really dissect industry. And for people who really want to know, like, how things work, or how people made it. My biggest question for everyone was always like, their origin story, and how did they? Yeah, they make it? Yeah, how did they get in. And then we kind of get into the weeds a little bit with some of them. But but it's not meant to be Entertainment Tonight, the show's really meant for people who want to, you know, make it in Hollywood, kind of, like, you know, like my students at USC, or national universities and other place or, I used to teach at UCLA to actually and, and just to kind of, you know, have other people experience and get to know you know, how it's done. That's it, that was the whole impetus for the show.

Alex Ferrari 11:10
It's a great show and anybody who's interested in getting it, you know, amazing access to some amazing guests and it's awesome. It's really really awesome.

Sebastian Twardosz 11:18
Well, some of the episodes are very good, some are a little slow. So you know, I didn't we didn't really have that much time was a little bit thrown together. I wish when we do a 2.0 version of it, which I hope to do. There I have a lot of ideas for making it better, but but it's it's it's pretty good. I'm pretty I'm happy with it.

Alex Ferrari 11:33
So can you talk a little bit from your perspective, what does a producer rep do?

Sebastian Twardosz 11:38
Okay, well, there are different kinds of producer reps. Ultimately, their job is to help you get distribution to like find you a distribution deal. And then to negotiate the basic terms of that, that that's the ultimate job and that's what most producer reps do. We we do more than that, but that's the basics and you say we who is we? Well, my partner Glenn Reynolds and I and then we have a couple of people that work with us we're also partners Alex nollie and Josh Holman you know we have varied backgrounds you know like Glenn produced conversations with other women he stopped you know he started like a really successful foreign sales company you know with the law school University of Texas produced other movies also and has you know just been working in business for a while Alex No, he used to be with film independent and has been with various you know, programmer various festivals Also producer I mean if you just look at the background for us, we are we are doing well Josh Holman by the way is really cool. I think it was two summers ago he won the Austin Film Festival for writing comedy spec oh nice he wrote you know, so we're all in the business to various ways and really what we're doing is you know, you make various relationships as you kind of go through and it just turned out that we knew a lot of people who could help in terms of distribution but like I said we do more like we do a lot of festival consulting which is a big aspect of it and then we actually do the the the deals to actual contracts

Alex Ferrari 13:16
Now you say we again but your name you haven't mentioned the name of your company wants to just want to make sure you get it out

Sebastian Twardosz 13:22
Sorry I'm sorry. Circus Road Films.

Alex Ferrari 13:26
Okay. No worries now Now you know the situation that I was in and the reason why we spoke heavily about that and the negative connotation is that the person has that has since been ousted from the business are there still in your experience producer reps out there who are doing that kind of negative you know, you know we talked a little bit about upfront payments and things of that we'll talk about what what producers reps generally get charged you know charge and things like that but you know the abuse that this person's and if you want to say her name I have no problem

Sebastian Twardosz 14:00
I'm gonna say that I think that's appropriate but I mean when you know when I read the article that you posted I knew exactly who you're talking about like instantly and anybody who in this part of the business because it's a very small part of the business this particular niche of it you know, anyone would know right away you somehow found your way to the worst very bad actor they say like like really probably the worst which is unfortunate and although you did get a deal at the end, which is you know, better than not getting any deal at all

Alex Ferrari 14:35
Some somewhere I still lost money but it was it was a little surreal. Yeah,

Sebastian Twardosz 14:38
Well, um so you know, that it's just unfortunate but are there other people like that there's no one that I'm aware of that it's at that level. Honestly, it's just, you know, because that particular person had various filings against them in the Better Business Bureau, all kinds of stuff. I have never seen that with anyone else. I you just happen to fall into the worst There are some other people who I'm sort of concerned with, because I know the appropriate, appropriate way to do this in the not appropriate way. Let me just say this, um, you know, because upfront fees in this part of the business are actually normal. But here's the thing, you know, it's hard, it might be hard to tell from the filmmakers side of it, I suppose. But, you know, like, we don't represent movies, if one we don't like them, or two, we don't think we can get them a deal, we just will pass, because there is the internet and there is, you know, our reputations. And like, for us, like, I've represented other students at USC, or I've represented, you know, some of my other professors, they're actually my boss, you know, and, you know, so much that that must be very interesting. Was it was what wasn't my direct boss, but she's definitely my superior. there at the school, because she's the head of the producing track. But you know, and we did the fee and everything, but you know, we come through for our clients. And you know, it, I suppose the differences, you know, do you just take money just to take the money? Or do you take it because you really want to be helpful, and you think you can be helpful? And that's kind of it for me, I'll, you know, if I think I can be helpful, then yeah, I'll do it. But if I, you know, cuz some movies are, you know, you just can't, there's just nothing we can do. So, you know, you just have to walk away, right? Also, there's some filmmakers, it's just, you know, my life might be too short. Walk away. I know the feeling again, but with you want, it was very unfortunate, you just happen to fall into the wrong hands. And, you know, I don't know what to say, I don't think most people are like that. There are some people I'm a little bit concerned with. It's true. Because you know, anybody can be a producer's Rep. So really, it's about just doing a lot of research. And I know, in your case, you said you even had a recommendation or referral. Oh, yeah. Which is even makes it even tougher.

Alex Ferrari 17:07
It was it was it was from a very major organization that I was a part of, and she and that producers rep came and spoke and was represented, you know, recommended by the head of the organization, everything. So that was a lot of due diligence right there. Because I trusted, the organization has nothing to do with the organizations that happen to be a bad situation. But

Sebastian Twardosz 17:25
I just don't know what to say to that. Because, you know, I just don't know what to say, because you do have to do the due diligence. You know,

Alex Ferrari 17:34
It was really it's okay. I mean, it's really early on in my career, I was I was literally in diapers almost, in the sense of the business. And she saw me coming from a mile away. And that was what happened and life goes on. But so with that said, What do producers reps generally charge as a general statement for, you know, representing a representation of an indie film?

Sebastian Twardosz 17:55
Well, what they charge depends on what they do, okay. And they charge at different points. So we'll start from various places, you can get a producer rep for just 10%. But you know, there's, there's two kinds of reps that will work in that, that zone. One is, you know, the major agencies. And, you know, they're really working with movies that you know, are pure Sundance movies that have, you know, very recognizable names. And then if not stars, just kind of moonlighting in indie films, you know, it's very hard for, for what I call a true independent to get that kind of representation. It's possible, but it's, it's very hard. And then there, there are the other reps who just do it a 10%. But what happens is, if they can't, you know, sell your movie in a month, or you know, if you don't get into a major festival, like Sundance Tribeca, Toronto, or South by Southwest, they'll just drop you and they might do it amicably. But really, it's for most, nine out of 10 independent movies, the 10% reps are really truly not interested or disinterested. You know, I even have a story of one film that we represent that we did a good job on. They had signed with a just a pure 10 percenter. And as soon as they signed, that person never called or emailed them back again. It was just purely the art of closing the deal. And they had to let that contract run Now fortunately, because I was also trying to sign that film. It's a very good film, small film but very good as Australia saying, but they said, Well, we just don't want to pay any upfront fee. I said, Okay, well, but the things change, let me know. And I said to him, I said, Look, at the very least, just sign three months. I said no more. I said because look, if they can't get it done in three months, they're not. They're not ever going to do it. And that's a good thing. They were able to get their claws down to three months so that three months later they contact me You said Look, I walked away because they live They told me you guys never call us back and so we took on the film and in less than two months we had a deal and they were really happy and on and on. So okay so that's the temper centers and mind you that's really good if you have the right kind of film the right kind of film basically means you have to be in the Big Four festivals or it's got to have like some extremely marketable element to it. But but this is the smallest minority of indie films it truly is. Then they're the ones that charge fees tip like us which we do typically the the reps that charge fees will also do your contracts and we do that so um, some will charge you upfront and I'll talk about how much in a second and some will charge you when they sign a deal. Like as soon as you sign a deal and it could vary I've basically the magic number seems to fall between five and 10,000 it really does vary also depending on you know, there's there's so many factors that go into it so but that number seems to fall between five and 10 which is where we are and then you know for us we do another thing though, so that's most reps most reps it's really just about making the deal finding a distribution and like which I said is the main thing but with us we do more like one of the main things that I do is festival consulting and I do a lot of festival consultant that you can just hire a film festival consultant separately and that could run you 500 to 1000 a month right? It really can't and so what we do is we do festival consulting we do the distribution submissions and then we do the contracts all three wrapped into our fee and I think we are well worth it yeah I kind of use like my class as an example like to get me in my class at USC you could just look this up my class there cost $6,500 which is a lot of money but mind you this class is a really good class so if you watch any of the insiders episodes, it is way better than even that because you're just getting a small taste of it not getting the real the kind of stuff you can say off screen you know all the stuff before that that you can that we talked about so you know you have to put it in the context for what you're getting what the person's actually doing, and what they can charge for because look we don't have to help you get into a festival The reason we do it we I'll tell you why we do we do it for a couple reasons one, it can help to sell your film if you get into the right festival 2 it's good for you and your career it will help you advance your career and really if you look at me specifically I mean I'm teaching Believe me I'm not teaching for the money you know I make more money doing you know circus road or doing other things that I do that I do teaching I do teaching because I really am trying to pay for night I love this business and I want to make it easier for people than it was for me basically that's kind of the same here what that's basically what it did my whole thing is like remembering like what it was like for me when I was 18 and I got out here I mean even the class the class that I teach at USC is actually the class I wish I had and then I eat it when I when I was at USC but I didn't have or they didn't have it there so there's really the impetus for all of it so yeah so anyway so so that's kind of how the fee stuff works it just depends what you get if they're doing your contracts are always going to charge the reason is because you're going to have to hire a lawyer no matter what you shoot you're gonna have to hire one I suppose you could do want to do it on your own but it wouldn't be I wouldn't advisable to do it yeah, so you're gonna pay one way or another and what we're doing is we have all that in house as opposed to just be being a you know, a pure rep without doing the contracts because the temper centers typically will have to match you up pair you up with with a lawyer and by the way when you're paying that lawyer if they're referring a lawyer they're probably getting kind of a fee kickback You don't even know about course course that's the way the system is getting paid. You just don't know about it. So with us we just happened to be very upfront about it. Well here's what it is these are the actual costs of doing this. And you know then if you get into good festival and say the Austin was obviously the Big Four like you know, talked about, let's say you get into a smaller but great festival like Austin or tell you writers cinequest will tell you for sure, but but you know, we go off into those festivals we don't charge anymore to do to do any of that, you know, but we go and you know, our advices is rock solid on all sorts of things because we've kind of been there before. But you know, these things cost.

Alex Ferrari 24:49
Yeah, there's a cost involved with it. So well thank you for explaining that a little bit more and getting your perspective on what a real producer's rep does and let everybody understand what That situation is now in your in your past you have worked with a lot of people. But specifically you had the opportunity to work with a mega movie star as a producer, Mr. Tom Cruise. What was it like working with Tom Cruise on on the level that you were working with him on?

Sebastian Twardosz 25:19
Well, that was really kind of one of the best times of my life was so amazing. I'm a I'm actually a working class kid. You know, my parents were definitely I'm an immigrant. First of all, I was born in Poland. And my dad was a machinist. My mom was a hairstylist. You know, I went to USC, on scholarship, USC, film, school, those all scholarship and stuff, thank God. But you know, but but I come from a very working class kind of area of Detroit and, you know, working for Tom Cruise. credible, I'm sure, flying around in private jets, you know, dealing with CIA, and, you know, the chairman of CIA, you know, because agent was the CO chairman of CIA. Yeah, you know, his, his publicist was the number one publicist in the business. Pat, Kingsley, Mk. And, you know, we were, you know, it was at the height of his career, he was, when I was there, it was a mission, one mission to Jerry Maguire and Eyes Wide Shut the movie he produced, which was without limits, which is, I was on set for that. So, I mean, it was eye opening. You know, in hindsight, hindsight is always a good thing, I suppose, you know, but these companies, they're small, first of all, you know, so when you have a, you know, it's the same today as it was, then, when you have a movie star, you know, you're only talking about a company of, like, 10 or so people at as many as 15, if it's big, or as little, I suppose, is like six, but it's a round number of around 10 that work at these companies and, and it is very high pressure. Because, you know, at that time, he was for sure, the biggest movie star in the world. And there's a lot of demands, and you know, there's a lot of money to be made and the choices that you make are important, you know, because everybody wants you in their movie, and a lot of people will profit from whatever choices you make. So it was I would, I would describe it as extremely a very high pressure place for sure.

Alex Ferrari 27:23
Yeah, that sounds that sounds like you've made obviously a lot of contacts along the way being in that in those kind of situations.

Sebastian Twardosz 27:29
Yeah, because everyone's calling you know, so you know, studio heads. I mean, literally chairman of studios or chairwoman of studios you know, all the heads of all the major everybody wants you because your time and what was interesting to me is you know, I would read variety or nowadays you're reading deadline Hollywood, but you know, you read like so and so was cast in the eye like Matt Damon gets this film or, or Kevin Reynolds Kevin Costner? I'm sorry, Kevin Costner gets this film or what have you Tom Hanks gets this film. And the truth of the matter is that we had seen that script and it had been offered to Tom Cruise probably six months or more before it ever got offered to anybody else and it appeared in the traits he was he would see everything like so all these announcements with all these other you know very big movie stars. Will Smith What have you we you know, these are scripts we have seen six months nine months before it was ever announced that somebody else was in it

Alex Ferrari 28:29
So you were where you were working at the top of the mountain

Sebastian Twardosz 28:32
It what's funny is it didn't feel that way when you were there because there's always you know working at these companies there's always consent you know this concentric circles and you know obviously my boss who was Tom's partner, Paula Wagner she's in the center of it and we're you know, there's rings outside of that we were close to the center but you know but yes I mean we were you know we were a Paramount's I suppose we were at the top of the mountain but I guess literally Yeah, but it doesn't it really doesn't feel that way it's just a lot of work a lot of script reading a lot of production just a lot of You're so you're working so much that you just you lose sight of the outside world innocence you actually you actually lose sight of where you are in a way because you know you still have to do the actual work and you're not you know, I'm not that I wasn't his producing partner or anything you know, I'm not the head of the studio. You know, I'm working at this company and I guess I was one of the 10 or so people core people there for a long time but you can't you do you lose you lose sight just because you're you're buried in so much work.

Alex Ferrari 29:44
Now, what they did with Eyes Wide Shut, were you involved with Eyes Wide Shut at all.

Sebastian Twardosz 29:50
No, with Stanley Kubrick is always an exception. I think. We were We were we you know, we we were not in involved with that movie. No, that was all Stanley. It was Yeah, it was all set it was going on at the same time as, you know, mission one mission to Jerry Maguire. And without limits Those were all happening around the same time. But you know, Tom, you know, actors are busy, they can do more than one thing at Tom is also a producer, they could do more, you know, they do numerous movies every year. So that was while everything else was going on.

Alex Ferrari 30:24
But I heard that. But I also heard that Stanley basically locked up Tom for what, 18 months?

Sebastian Twardosz 30:31
Um, well, that's true. But Tom was still he is a producer, you know. So although Tom may have been, you know, acting in that movie, he's still reading scripts for his next movie, you're still reading scripts of writers he wants to hire to, you know, right Mission Impossible to Yeah, he's working. Well, we were in development a mission to while so it's not like, it's not like he was only doing that there. We were an active development on mission to while he was there, he was reading and meeting with, you know, writers and directors for mission too. So that was the that was obviously the big impetus because we didn't want to just come out. And also he was producing movie, he wasn't even in without limits. And believe me, believe me every single day. He was on the phone with Paul, we were on the south Paulo. I was on the phone with him every day, every single day back then. We faxed pages to him. Even small changes every page of a script that was changed in any way was sent to him. He was overnighted back then. Video while back I was videotapes we could do now was we're talking about 1995 Sure, sure. Sure. Internet was just a baby. Yeah, we were overnighting you know, all the dailies to them. I mean, this is and we're not talking like FedEx. We're talking like private couriers to get it right to Tom, you know, on a set where he was, you know, England, Eyes Wide Shut. Everything was overnighted to him. He was incredibly involved. So basically, maybe producing sorry, producing without limits may have kept him saying maybe while he was working with um, maybe that's what it was. I mean, I don't know. You know, exactly, but, but I'm sure that that probably was a good a good thing for him to be doing while Stanley was, you know, doing 200 takes because the shooting ratio is so high 200 takes of a scene.

Alex Ferrari 32:31
Oh, we could talk about Stanley for hours. I'm a huge Kubrick fan. And that's one of my favorite Kubrick movies. Believe it or not, I love Eyes Wide Shut.

Sebastian Twardosz 32:38
Oh, I have some stories. I could tell you that because I would hear stuff. Like mind blowing. But uh, but yeah, so I'm sure the production company side the development side of all the other things Tom was doing probably kept him sane while he was doing Eyes Wide Shut. Like I said we had nothing to do with that. Sure. Sure, sure. So you know, Stanley could do his thing. Tom was in it. And I think he was very happy to be in it. But Tom has, you know, a life outside of that. And that was all the other movies we were working on.

Alex Ferrari 33:04
Now. In another interview, I heard you discuss the two paths an indie filmmaker can take when making a film The making money path and the jumpstart your career path? Can you tell us a little bit more about both of those paths?

Sebastian Twardosz 33:17
Okay, yes, it's it's, you know, this isn't like set in stone. This isn't like lanes of the highway. But yes, there seem to be two paths that I've seen for indie films. So if all you want to do is just make money. There are certain kinds of films you make in there certain kinds of things you put into those movies, and they tend to be more genre movies, or action movies or horror movies or what have you. Or you can make a pure for instance, most people don't know this, but making a pure family film is probably the best thing you could do. Like, you know, you don't know, the franchise that no one ever talks about. The most probably one of the most successful franchises out there.

Alex Ferrari 34:00
Beethoven.

Sebastian Twardosz 34:02
No. But Close, air buds.

Alex Ferrari 34:06
Oh, God, I could imagine those air buds. Yes, they just keep going and go we can go

Sebastian Twardosz 34:11
Look who produced it originally. But if you look, it's Bob and Harvey Weinstein.

Alex Ferrari 34:16
Right! I suppose it was that was that? That was an amerimax thing that was

Sebastian Twardosz 34:21
Yes, it was a pretty or dimension or something. Yeah. Often Harvey Weinstein or the executive producers, because you know the secret in this industry. It's true. If you make like a dog movie or pure kids movie, it will make a lot of money. And so now there but movies are all owned by Disney, but that's because Disney bought Miramax Sure, sure they got it out from Miramax. But there's so many of those airborne movies anyway, if you make movies like that, it won't necessarily propel your career as a director. Because you're going to be looked at in a certain way, but you'll make a lot of money. The riskier bet is to try and propel your career as a director. And for that you pretty much have to make basically A major festival film Sundance Film south by Toronto, Tribeca. And those movies tend to be more dramas, they do have a midnight section. So you could get away with it. But they're kind of elevated movies in that sense. And they're much riskier, because making a drama. If you don't get one of the big four festivals will probably diamond financial disaster. So it's very tricky as to how to go about, about doing it. But those are the two paths. The other thing is, you know, what do people really look for in, in director clients, you know, so for writers, they're looking for your voice. And for a director, they're looking for your point of view. So they want to see, you know, how, how you direct, you know, scenes and actors and stuff. And that's the kind of stuff that goes to Sundance. So that's why you have you know, all these let me look at the Russo brothers, you know, that their first movie was actually at slam dance. Then they had a movie in Sundance, and then their careers took off. Same thing with Colin trevorrow. Sundance movie, and then, you know, Jurassic, right from a Sundance movie safety net County, which is a great little movie, by the way, it's just a little movie a character piece, not very proud. If it didn't go into Sundance, it probably wouldn't have been profitable at all.

Alex Ferrari 36:18
It didn't have any major stars, Mark duplass is the only I think, yeah.

Sebastian Twardosz 36:21
And then and then and, you know, and then he goes to Jurassic World, and this is normal. There are other examples of this. I mean, it goes way back, even, you know, Bryan Singer directed x men, you know, he did a movie called public access, which is a drama, really, it's kind of a mystery drama that went to Sundance and, and, and it was Sundance that gave him his break. So you know, you want to go for that, but it's very difficult. It's not very few movies get to go to Sundance. Um, so that's why it's a risky path. So that's why I say to people, you have to know what you want. When you start making a movie, or even Ryan Johnson, by the way, who did brick, this his first movie went to Sundance, and now he's directing Star Wars episode eight. And you know, I know kind of his whole story, his was kind of took longer to get to Star Wars, but Sundance makes a difference. So you have to know what you're doing from the onset. And what I tell people is, actually, and this goes kind of goes, goes back to producer reps again, by the way, you should not be making a feature film to make money.

Alex Ferrari 37:22
No, it's a worst worse idea.

Sebastian Twardosz 37:25
Right? And that's why this world of really good producer reps or consultants, or what have you, we all know this, and that's why we can we can charge a little bit also because we can give you the right advice. It's not about making, you know, a return on investment. It really isn't. It's about propelling your career. And that's why again, we focus on festivals a lot and that's why we focus you know, I'm getting you know, good distribution. And good distribution doesn't always make a lot of money either. But you know, but the festival thing really does matter. Because if you get into right festivals, it can really help you. And so we focus a lot on that. Um, so yeah, those two paths are interesting, but if all you want to do is make money, then yes, make a movie like air but or if you make a horror film, because you know, everybody thinks Oh, I'll just make a horror film. I'll make a lot of money. But that's not true. Because because there's a glut of horror films, but there's not a glut of air button movies. Yeah. Yeah, you have to make an either elevated horror film, or you have to give us something we just haven't seen before.

Alex Ferrari 38:29
Can you give us an example of an elevated horror film for the audience?

Sebastian Twardosz 38:32
Well I mean people will say you know saw the original saw was a Sundance movie by the way it was in Sundance

Alex Ferrari 38:40
Midnight Yeah, yeah. Blair Witch Right,

Sebastian Twardosz 38:43
Right. Blair Witch as well right? I don't know that I would call Blair Witch elevated Blair Witch was just new at the time because of the way

Alex Ferrari 38:53
It was an anomaly basically created a genre created genre.

Sebastian Twardosz 38:57
Yeah, because look, here's why you know, it's an anomaly because look at what the guys who made it have gone on to do which there hasn't been anything really major whereas the song guys Oh, yeah, careers have taken off so they were not an anomaly. They know. They've it's legal now and James one they've they've both like, done it more than once now. I mean, look at their credits. So that's how you know they're not one hit wonders, they, they know what they're doing. Yeah, but that I guess you can call an elevated just means that let me just put, this is how I phrase it. If you're going to make a horror film, just make sure this is the film. If you're only going to make one film and your entire life. You get one shot. Put as much effort, you know, into that horror film, and pretend it's the only film you'll ever ever make because actually chances are might be actually the only film you ever make. But as much effort and time into that as you would like if you were writing. I don't know Dead Poets Society or Amadeus or, or you know, Shakespeare in Love or it Any you know The Revenant? What at what? What whatever movie you think is an awesome movie that won an Oscar, you know the Birdman or what have you put as much effort into your horror movie as you would into that. And that will probably make it better. And that includes with the script, by the way, because it all does start with the script. So yeah, that's my long winded answer to like the the two paths to take

Alex Ferrari 40:24
Now with with that, which is something I kind of talked about a little bit as well is, you know, finding your voice and finding your point of view, like you pointed out, can you go a little bit more into dealing like the voice of a screenwriter and too many ways of voice or perspective of a director? Because obviously the strong the people who've all made it in this business, they all have very strong points of view, or very strong voices. I mean, Tarantino's voice is, it's like a bullhorn. You know? And you know, Scorsese, and even Spielberg and Fincher, they all have such a strong, distinct point of view, voice style. Can you talk a little bit about that? Cuz I think a lot of filmmakers that make movies today that just slap stuff together and try to copy somebody else, or have no real point of view that just kind of putting it out there just to say, Hey, I made a movie.

Sebastian Twardosz 41:16
Well, let me give you an example of voice. I'm actually because I'm, I start my one class at USC tonight, so I happen to have my syllabus, everything from I'm gonna give you an example. I will attribute this to a friend, a good friend of mine, his name is Alex liftback. And he's a screenwriter. You can look him up, he's made some rent some good movies. He's also an executive at 20th Century Fox. He's a great guy, but he said this was one of my classes. I wrote it down because I liked it so much. So here's an exact example of it. And then now we can talk about it. It'd be short. So here's here's a very good well written piece of screenplay which I'll read to you in a second. There's nothing wrong with it's well written, but it doesn't have voice and now read to you the version that that's so here we go. Ready? interior Jack's apartment night. jack is asleep on this couch. There's a knock on his front door. He stirs awake as Jane enters. Perfectly competent, well written. Sure. Fine. But it lacks voice. So here's voice ready. Interior Jack's apartment night. What a shithole. That's actually a compliment. Jack's asleep on his couch. There's a knock in his front door, he stirs awake, Jane enters, she can stop traffic, air traffic.

Alex Ferrari 42:36
Ohh Jesus.

Sebastian Twardosz 42:38
The difference ultimately, the differences, yes, it has taught first there's tone, there's attitude and the writing. But if you if you if you're listening to it, it's visual. You know, like he says, what a shithole instantly in your mind, you're thinking okay, he's got you know, it's apartments a show, you can picture. You know, Jane and her, they don't describe Jane, they just say she can stop traffic, air traffic. And in your mind, you whatever you, the reader, or listener thinks is the hottest woman that could walk in the room will come up in your mind. It's visual. So voice is as a couple things, as a writer, and then as a director is slightly different. But because obviously you can do your your visuals, but as a writer, it's, it's about it's about tone, and feeling you and the ability to make somebody picture something in their mind. But it's also the ability to make somebody feel ultimately your voices can you this is this entire business ultimately is can you make either the real reader feel something, or the viewer in a movie theater feel something, it's all about feelings? Really, that's all it is. And people who have a voice are a master of getting the reader to feel something. But one way of doing that is obviously getting them the picture. So you know, that that has a lot to do with voice. The other thing is don't self censor, that ultimately are no rules. Yes, you have to know how to write a good screenplay. So read a lot and I mean a lot of screenplays, but really there are no rules. So you don't have to necessarily be grammatically correct. You can say anything, never self censored. I always say in class, I mean, I mean, look at bridesmaids, you've got a you've got you know, you know you've got a fat chick taking a dump in a sink. In the I mean, okay, there's nothing, anyone, nothing you can write, the people in Hollywood will get offended by or whatever. It's like, if it's if you want to be funny than be funny. If you want to be serious, to be serious, but never self censor. And, you know, take risks, and just, you kind of want to be yourself. Be yourself in your writing. Then that's, that's what you want to be

Alex Ferrari 45:00
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. And it's I think, is a general thing as an artist, any artist anywhere in any any form is about being yourself. And also the confidence that the confidence is so good when you when like that second piece that you wrote, it took a lot more balls to write that kind of way than it did the first time. And you can call it voice, but it's also confidence because you know what a shithole? A lot of people like I'm not going to curse in a script, what am I going to, but that's not the proper way. I haven't read it like that. But you see, you already said that little voice craps into your head, but there's that then you got that guy who's just really confident just like boom, what a shithole what, or this or that. And that's that. And that's what people I think, in a lot of ways really are attracted to,

Sebastian Twardosz 45:54
I actually talk about confidence in class. So you totally nailed it. There's another word for it too, though. Confidence is the right word. But it's also it's called being in control of your story. The, it's like when you're giving a pitch to somebody, or when you're talking to somebody about what you want to make, they have to have a sense that you are in control of your story. And being in control of it means you are confident. And yes, because it's like dating, I mean, there's always analogies to dating. Yes. If you can be confident that's not cocky per se, but confident that that shows strength, and it shows that you really know your characters, you really you control the scene. And that's also what I mean by don't don't self censor, don't.

Alex Ferrari 46:40
Yeah, I know, a lot of a lot of young writers and a lot of filmmakers will censor themselves before they ever come out the gate. And I'm like, Look, other people are going to try to censor you. Why are you going to try to censor yourself before you come out the gate?

Sebastian Twardosz 46:50
Let other people do that. Because that's what happens, you know, good scripts, watered down. You know, by the way, one of the best scripts I ever read a long time ago. And anybody in the business back then will tell you this was in the mid 90s, again, was a script called East Grand Rapids. Hi, do you know what that will have never know which one was at East Grand Rapids high was I still have a draft of that, by the way.

Alex Ferrari 47:10
Oh, it's American Pie.

Sebastian Twardosz 47:11
It's American Pie.

Alex Ferrari 47:12
It's American Pie. I thought so. Yeah.

Sebastian Twardosz 47:14
Well, we read that because I was a creative executive at the time. People in the business was passing that script around. Like it was like it was butter, like it was chocolate got sold for a record amount. I remember cuz, see, everyone sees that movie, in the sense of having seen the movie, right? And it seemed the sequence which obviously aren't as good, but when you read that fresh, and there was no movies or nothing to look at, it was incredibly well written. well written and not censored, believe me at all. And it was hilarious. And you know, it just it kept hitting a nerve. I'm like, Oh, yeah, I did that. Or Yeah, that's funny. That happened to me, or somebody I knew bla bla bla, and it was not sent self censored. So I'm just, you know, go for it.

Alex Ferrari 48:02
Right. I mean, there was that movie, which I heard the script was made. I read the script. It was amazing. And it was much different than the movie was last Boy Scout. Shane Black script. Yeah. Original I was it sold for like 3.5 million back in the day or something like that. Yeah. And it was remarkable. And they changed the you know, they changed the daymond Wayne character from a wisecracking black guy to from a surfer dude, if I remember correctly in the original script, or something like that. It's stuff like that happens all the time, but at least shamed and watered down his version. He just Yeah,

Sebastian Twardosz 48:36
I don't know. I don't think Yeah, he's another one of these guys. Like if you read his scripts, it's it's awesome. By the way, there's a really good article, I think in Hollywood Reporter right now, about Shane Black, and his hay days. And he's, you know, he's coming back and he has a new movie coming out.

Alex Ferrari 48:50
I can't wait to see it, too. It looks amazing.

Sebastian Twardosz 48:52
Yeah. These guys know how to write Oh, yeah, I think there was no holds barred.

Alex Ferrari 48:56
Yeah, no question. So to go back to film festivals real quick, would you suggest that if a film if a filmmaker gets into a let's say Sundance, and they are not on track to get a let's say a distribution deal, like cuz there's I know a lot of Sundance, you know, you know, winners, that never got a deal because of the kind of tone to the movie or something along those lines, would you suggest that they they like maybe do a quick one week self distribution, you know, digital, digital streaming version of him like, Hey, you know, it's only after Sundance special only a week later. You can watch it here because all the attention is going to be on them, they'll probably never get as much attention on the film ever again. So would you leverage that?

Sebastian Twardosz 49:39
I don't know that it works. I'll tell you. Slam dance is doing that now like slam dance, will actually can actually distribute your movie for you because they're trying to make that work. Sundance hasn't quite done that yet. Tribeca is doing it, you know, because Tribeca films also distributes a little bit. It's interesting, it The real problem is that there are It's an ocean of movies now. It's all about marketing really it's about getting people's attention so I don't know that doing it on your own works I have to tell you I have never seen it I've only seen it work in very specific forms I'll tell you what they are because I have my in it's it's just it doesn't seem to work with narrative films at all it kind of works with in the non narrative space. Like there was there was a movie about like the education system that's making a fortune. Right now that's all self distributed.

Alex Ferrari 50:38
Yeah, Doc Doc's do very well with that model. I've seen many Doc's do extremely well,

Sebastian Twardosz 50:42
yeah, yeah, they seem to do better, but narratives. Not so much. I'm actually trying to find the name of the slipping my mind,

Alex Ferrari 50:50
What I mean. And from my experience, there have been films, the independent films that have done well, it's self distributed, but again, their budget levels have to be extremely low, the the audience,

Sebastian Twardosz 51:02
Remember any of them cuz I

Alex Ferrari 51:04
Camp Dakota, I remember was one that they did. That was a bunch of YouTube stars put together but they had a huge audience. So they saw they had the marketing because of the YouTubes. But that's my point. Like, there is a way to do it, but it takes a lot of work. And you've got to build up an audience and you've got to be able to leverage people's audiences to be able to sell them and so on. So if again, it depends on the budget. And if you if you make that movie for 5 million bucks, it's not gonna make money. But if you made that movie for, let's say, 100 grand, and they have 5 million followers, or the group of them have 15 million followers, you know, chances are you're going to be able to make your money back between that and

Sebastian Twardosz 51:42
By the way, I believe that's true. Although I also know the opposite. I do know some other YouTubers who have tried it, they have their very highly ranked channel in the comedy space. And they made their first feature and they got no traction. They even told me it's different. It's so interesting, because I asked him the same time like you guys have you know, 5 million people right? A lot of followers right and a lot of hits and they have some very successful YouTube series literally if I set it right now some of your mailing address right would know it i'm sure and I asked them well why they said to me Look, we even tried to fight you know, they we tried to crowdfund the movie that was one of their things but they had so many followers and it failed they didn't get that much money and they said look the peep the audience wants you know a certain thing they want their the the YouTube series you know that they've been producing they'll watch that but when it comes to because that's all free mind you but when it comes to pay putting extra money down into a crowdfunding campaign it the turnover from like fans to like oh contributors was shockingly low

Alex Ferrari 53:01
Well no the the I

Sebastian Twardosz 53:03
And the same with getting district it took them I would say a year and a half to finally get distributed and honestly I don't know that that the movie was profitable

Alex Ferrari 53:14
Well what's what's interesting is I actually had a I was talking to the head of seed and spark which is a crowdfunding website Emily and she was telling me I'm like what's the most successful when you guys have had and they said well it was this web series and they were able to generate like 100 $150,000 crowdfunding So it all depends a case by case basis it all depends on the audience yeah because if you're into like slapstick haha videos and you might have 5 million people who just like enjoy that but they're not really into that you know they're not going to put out but if you have a put out cash on a crowdfunding thing or or support your feature but there's just all depends on the personality it depends on the channel depends on the the celebrity the YouTube celebrity to you know what kind of content that is so it can be done but it is very strategic thing to do and it takes time to build up even once you have it.

Sebastian Twardosz 54:04
Right and I don't know well here's the thing The bottom line is I don't know that there is a path that if you do ABC Yeah, all the way to z that you will get the result I think it's more about that there is luck as part of it right place right time right movie, right? You know, you cannot believe me if anyone has tried to control their career in this business, you know, their path, it was me, believe me, you know, and I couldn't do it. And I know lots of people you know, it's just certain opportunities come up. Same thing with films so um, I don't think you can ever mirror anyone else's success. It's it is tough. You do have to there is like there's a direction like, you know, you have to go west. Okay. West. There's lots of different paths to go west. And yes, some people go, you know, through more, you know, Warren path, but that doesn't, you know, but there's also You know, a lot of people, it's a worn path. So predators and bad guys know people are going down that path, you might get hit on that path, you know, as a bad analogy.

Alex Ferrari 55:08
No, no, it's a good analogy. Actually, I completely understand what you're saying. Yeah, absolutely.

Sebastian Twardosz 55:12
So So it's, it's, it's, you know, you can only do what you can do, and you have to hope that you're meeting the right people along the way. And it's never the same right people every single time, but you can, you can, you know, educate yourself to the best that you can embark on it, know what you're getting into, be realistic, you know, and, and if you succeed at the end, great, try and help other people. If you don't succeed, well, you know, it's kind of like when you get knocked down, get, get back up and do it again.

Alex Ferrari 55:47
I didn't mean the, I think the best advice I've ever heard was just do the best work you can at all times. And you really won't know what because you'll plan some things out. But like anything in life, plans go out the window, and you'll meet this one person and this one person knows this other person and, and then all of a sudden, they're like, oh, I've met you at a Starbucks and oh, well, let's, you know, go let's go have the drinks. And all of a sudden, oh, hey, I love your movie. Let me give it over to my friend and who's my friend, I just happen to know, Will Smith I went to school with Well, you know what I mean? And then all of a sudden, things like that happen. It happens all the time. Yes. But you just have to put yourself in a position to be at the right place at the right time with the right project, movie idea, things like that. And I always tell people, you know, the very famous legendary mythical story of Robert Rodriguez. With a mariachi, it's, he was at the right place at the right time with the right movie. And if he shows up today, I'm not sure if he gets the action.

Sebastian Twardosz 56:46
It's right, you just have to you have to have your at bats, you just have to get out there and produce whatever it is you're producing. Like, I'm a big believer, and I think about this all the time. Because, you know, because I do all kinds of things in the business. And I haven't done all the things I've wanted to do. And I'm still very hungry for doing some of those things. But you just, you know, it's, it's about ultimately, to me, what I value the most is creators. Mm hmm. You know, so whatever it is, but you are creating something, whether it's a book, a YouTube series, a feature, or whatever you've created, it is a big deal. Yes, eventually, you could go on and make, you know, Civil War, which we were suppose are doing, but they've already announced their next film. And it's an original film that they want to do. Because they're that that's always for two filmmakers. That's always going to be there. Yes, you'll go and make the big movies because it's fun. And part of this has to be fun. But ultimately, you want to create something new that you know, because really civil, it's Stan Lee, right? It all just goes back to Stan Lee, he's the Creator. So you know, you you just, that's what I value is the people who can just create something from nothing, and put something out there for other people to enjoy. And that again, that goes back to distribution for indie films, ultimately, because you there is no one that can guarantee you will profit because look different people make a movie a different way. Like Alex, you know, you're embarking on a movie. Yes. And you know, I might embark let's say in exactly the same movie, I bet you can make that movie cheaper and better than I could the same movie because you know, all the technical stuff a lot better than I do. You know, and I think you know, the ins and outs of that better so you're going to make we can make exactly the same movie. I bet you could bring it in, let's say you know, whatever, you know, you can bring it in for a million dollars, I bring in exactly the same movie for $2 million. Right? So obviously you're gonna have a profit before I will with the exact same movie. But that happens all the time with indie films so so you know, it's not about profitability. It's about making the best movie you can make getting it into the best festivals getting people to see it to propel your career that's really what it is. If you want to just make money okay, well then go make air but you know make a lots of air buds Yeah, yeah, make everybody go go make which is completely fine movie. I actually can't you know, I have kids, I wouldn't mind making one really, really good Air Bud movie for them to enjoy. But, but you know, you're just going to be making those kinds of movies or if you just want to make b b thrillers, you can make money with B thrillers, you know, you can do that, um, but that won't necessarily elevate your career or get you an Oscar or get you, you know, you know, like the Russo brothers, you know, into the stratosphere of a career.

Alex Ferrari 59:33
Right! Exactly, exactly. Now, with that said, What do you think in your opinion has changed the most in the film distribution landscape and what stays the same? Because a lot of things have changed over the overall

Sebastian Twardosz 59:45
What's the biggest change was fine because a lot of things have actually changed the same to really the biggest changes this there's just more and more and more movies. There. You know, it's like there used to be, you know, 10s of 1000s of screenplays every year to two You know, to get through now there's 10s of 1000s of movies just right. There's so many movies. So that's, that's what's changed. What hasn't changed is I think actually distribution hasn't really changed that much. It's all the pipes are still, you know, yes, we now have the internet and all that stuff. But as you I'm sure well know Alex, you know those pipes the internet pipes are controlled by the major media companies they just are. You know what, people now instead of like, you know, when I was young we only had three channels. Okay, well, we have more channels now but really everyone's still want only watching like Netflix or HBO or whatever, still basically watching a smallish number of channels because there's only so many hours in the day, right? So you know, and that those pipes are there. I don't know what the right word is. I'm searching for the right word. But those pipes are monetized and controlled by corporations. And then DIY to my knowledge has not worked because I can't think of one that has. The only exception being that one Judd Apatow one that he produced.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:12
On a Louie ck Lucy Kay put out his stand up. concert ck is famous already. Right? That's my point, like but but for someone like him who has that audience, he's able to monetize it fairly easily. And there's been a lot of guys who've done that on the comedic on the comedy side, because they were like, Well, wait a minute, why do I have to go through Comedy Central, I could just put it out on myself. And I control everything.

Sebastian Twardosz 1:01:35
But you have to get to that level, like most of us, not at that level

Alex Ferrari 1:01:38
Right! Right?

Sebastian Twardosz 1:01:39
So that's the thing. I'm, you know, we're really dependent on festivals, to indie filmmakers, you know,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:47
It's very again, and the festival or the festival to my pitch from in my opinion is only there not only to propel and to showcase filmmakers, but in the right festival, all the eyes of the industry are on that festival. So that's why the festivals matter is because

Sebastian Twardosz 1:02:01
Yeah, it's discovering new talent.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:02
Right! Right!

Sebastian Twardosz 1:02:03
Oh, point. That's why I put so much emphasis into helping people get into, you know,

Alex Ferrari 1:02:07
One of the things for us, right, exactly. And that's, that's always the key with with, it's just getting eyeballs on your movie. And festivals are still a very, very big part of that. And if you can find other ways of getting eyes on movies, whether that be putting it on, like you know a lot of guys, right, you know, do direct a short, that's a killer short, and they put up online and it goes viral. And all of a sudden, some executives are seeing it like, Hey, you come over here and direct who's the guy?

Sebastian Twardosz 1:02:31
Yeah, you don't even have to make a feature. And I that's one of the things I'm gonna be talking about in class. A couple weeks, you know, I don't really know why make a feature, if you can make an incredibly good short, and do achieve the same results as a feature.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:47
Depends, again, it all depends on it's all case by case.

Sebastian Twardosz 1:02:50
Yes, it is case by case, I completely agree. But I'm just saying that if if what people are thinking I have to make a feature to prove that I can make a feature, that's just not true. I'll give an example right now. Wes ball who directed Maze Runner, you know, here's a special effects guy, he made a short film called ruin. That's what got him the directing job. And I can think of other people, you know, I did a whole interview with Luke Greenfield who directs comedies on the insiders. And he, he made one of the best shorts ever, no visual effects. just freaking great. I think you can find it on YouTube, I have the link to it. But just look it up. It's called the right hook. And just Google that, and maybe Luke's named Luke Greenfield, and hopefully it come up. And that's the movie is a short film that got him his first feature. And so you know, and that movies really good. You'll see, like, holy cow, is this great movie. And it's like, you know, sometimes I look at, like, when you make a feature, you're just giving yourself more time, more time to stumble and fail. Really good short film for 10 minutes. It's kind of controlled and contained environment, as opposed to 110 minutes. You know,

Alex Ferrari 1:04:01
There's I mean, there's a lot of different opinions of that. I mean, I know a lot of guys, I've you know, I've done some I've done some shorts that have done obscene amounts of business and a lot of attention and all that kind of stuff years ago. And then then I kept getting Well, you know, can you do it each? Can you direct a feature, we have to see you do a feature? And then vice versa? You know, like, I don't know, there's just so many different,

Sebastian Twardosz 1:04:23
Right! And that's where agents and managers come in. Yes, absolutely. Her team. That's like I said, you know, we're all going west high. There's a lot of different ways to get there. And we all want to get to Hollywood, right? Right. We know the endpoint. There's a lot of ways to get to Hollywood.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:41
No, there's no no question about it. Now I'll ask you one last question before I ask you my standard three last questions.

Sebastian Twardosz 1:04:48
Okay, good cuz I because I my pain medications wearing off. Okay. I was in a very bad accident this weekend. Oh, er, so I'm actually on pain medication. Okay, I feel wearing off.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:58
Alright, so I'll hurry then. What would you say to someone who loves movies and just wants to get into the business and make a living in the business? Like someone just fresh green right off the boat?

Sebastian Twardosz 1:05:10
Well, I strongly believe you have to come to Los Angeles, I believe that you have to make a lot of friends. And I believe you should help your friends. I'll just leave it at that. I mean, I could tell you the actual steps and things you should do. But it comes down to that.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:30
Those are the core those are the core things you need to do. Yeah. And when Yeah, because those friends are the ones are going to help you get your projects may get you connected to other people and you help you they help jobs, everything, everything, the whole ball of wax, and that gets you started. Alright, so what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Sebastian Twardosz 1:05:49
Grass is always greener, or seems to be, um, you look at other people and their careers or their success or whatever in life or whatever it is. Don't worry about what other people are doing. Just worry about what you're doing.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:05
Great advice. What are your three favorite films of all time? no particular order?

Sebastian Twardosz 1:06:11
Well, my favorite film of all time is at Okay, I really have one that then i would say i don't i don't put them in any order. I only have one favorite film. That's that and now I would say you know, you know it's my generation. So you know, I love Star Wars. Sure. I love you know Dead Poets Society. Toy Story, Forrest Gump. You know Raiders of Lost Ark. You know, some movies that people don't talk about much by love, like Amadeus. Love Like, this is also really phenomenal.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:45
Those are all good ones. Those are all good ones.

Sebastian Twardosz 1:06:47
Yeah. And Spielberg Lucas Spielberg generations Meccas? You know, Ready Player One?

Alex Ferrari 1:06:52
Yes. Now what? Where can people find you?

Sebastian Twardosz 1:06:57
Oh, well, I'm easy to find. Well, you can Google my name, which is hard. Sebastian Twardosz. Good luck. But you could just I guess the easiest way is just google Circus Road Films. Okay, because that takes you to our website for our company and my emails right there. Okay. Or, you know, my email is just [email protected] for you Just email Sebastian. I actually have a website Yeah, just www.SebastianTwardosz.com.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:26
I'll put that in the show. I'll put that in the show notes. And nobody needs to figure out how to spell your last name.

Sebastian Twardosz 1:07:30
Yeah. But the websites good because it has some links to all my shows. on there. Links to my classes link to my Facebook. I have a really good Facebook page. Actually, this would be great. I think it's good anyway, it's just called the insiders on Facebook. And it's got kind of like a, like a godfather like icon. The hands with the with the cross. Anyway, yeah, I'm pretty easily fundable.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:56
I'll put I'll put all those links in the show notes. Guys. Sebastian, I know you're in pain, man. So thank you so much for doing this interview. Man. I really appreciate it.

Sebastian Twardosz 1:08:04
Thank you. I really enjoyed it a lot. And by the way, your site, and all the things that you do, I think I've been nominal. Thank you, man. I mean, really good. I have to get to know you a little bit better. And I'm gonna invite you to my class that I want you to speak. Oh, thank you so much. Now I know for sure. I just want to kind of wrap my head around, like the right. Right, right place to bring you in at what you're doing is really great. So congrats.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:30
Thanks again, my friend. I appreciate it and feel better.

Sebastian Twardosz 1:08:33
Thank you. Bye!

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IFH 074: How to Make Money TODAY Selling Your Film with Amazon!

We making money selling your short film, feature film or web series just got a whole lot easier. Amazon.com has thrown its hat into the Independent creators VOD ring with the launch of Amazon Video Direct.

This move is designed to go head to head with Google’s YouTube for video-ad dollars. as well as going after other juggernauts like Facebook and Vimeo.

Amazon Video Direct has four distribution options for its creators.

  1. Filmmakers can make their films available to Prime Video subscribers and receive a per-hour royalty fee
  2. Films or Series can be sold as a subscription through the Streaming Partners Program
  3. Films can be made available for digital rental or purchase
  4. Films can be made available to ALL Amazon customers for free with ads, and filmmakers would receive a 55% share of the ad revenue (exactly as they do on YouTube).

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Amazon Video Direct will pay the filmmaker 50% of the retail price for all rentals, digital purchases, and subscription fees. If filmmakers choose Prime Video distribution, creators will earn royalties of 15 cents per hour streamed in the U.S. and 6 cents in other territories under the standard terms.

What makes this a game-changer is indie filmmakers no longer have to deal with a middle man or distributor to gain access to one of the largest marketplaces in the world.

I already am making money with my past short films on Amazon Video Direct. I’m surprised at the number of views and cash these short films are brought in, with no advertising on my part yet. Check out what I uploaded to Amazon Video Direct here.

Take a listen to this podcast as I breakdown this amazing new distribution opportunity for indie filmmakers and I go over the technical requirements that are needed to upload to Amazon Video Direct.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:00
Well, my friends, making money with your film online has become much much easier after today. Amazon Video direct Amazon has announced that they are going to allow individual creators and filmmakers to upload their projects directly to Amazon and share in either revenue ad revenue or subscription based revenue. This is huge guys, I can't express to you how huge this is. It is knocked out the middleman for filmmakers. Now you can directly upload your short films, your web series, your your feature films, anything you want to upload you can you have to have some technical requirements, which I'm going to go over to you in a minute. But I was so excited when I heard this, I had to shout it from the top of the mountains because I was so so so excited about what Amazon's doing. Basically what Amazon's doing is trying to go after the YouTubes of the world. They're trying to become their own version of a YouTube slash Netflix. But allowing filmmakers to upload their projects directly just like YouTube without any sort of oversight or approval process, you're basically getting access to the entire Amazon Marketplace, which is arguably one of the largest marketplaces, if not the largest marketplace in the world. Now, currently, Amazon Video direct will be played in the UK, the US, Germany and Japan. And they will be growing to different regions of the world as they grow. But this is huge, I cannot express to you how huge this is to have a complete basically a distribution outlet without having to go to a middleman without having to pay obscene amounts of money to a distributor or to anything else, you have complete control of this. Now how this is going to affect other distribution deals, I don't know it would be a non exclusive and you know if you're going to go out to get another distributor through a traditional distribution deal. But if you've got short films, if you've got a feature film sitting on the shelf, doing nothing, why not upload it to Amazon Video direct. Now according to Amazon, you'll be able to rent sell or create a subscription based off of your work or all of your work and you get a split of 5050 with Amazon, which I think is extremely fair. And if you choose to upload it to the the amazon prime video distribution, you'll earn 15 cents per hour streamed in the US and six cents for other territories and that's capped up at around $75,000 per year. My God if you're getting that much streaming, you're doing really really well. And in addition to this, they've also launched the Amazon Video direct stars program, which is a bonus pool of a million dollars per month to be rewarded to the top performing video creators and gives them an incentive to add more of their content to prime video. They're really going after YouTube guys are going after YouTube and Netflix but YouTube specifically because you know now you'll be able to up Load your content and get paid for it and be able to sell it directly to a huge marketplace. I can't express to you enough, this isn't a smaller, you know, this is Amazon. everybody on the planet uses Amazon and to have direct access direct distribution access to Amazon without a middleman is crazy guys. So let's talk about the technical things that you're going to need to upload your film. Now, if you have a short film, feature film, web series, whatever, I think this all will count the exact same way. You go through the category catalog listing, you put in your information, synopsis genre rating, if you have one. And you have to create key art, you have to create a 16 by nine or 19 by 20 by 1080 piece of key art and also for a background image. And then you have to create a three by four or a 1200 by 1600 key art which is basically a movie poster to upload there, you add in your cast and crew, any of that stuff. So if you have any stars or anything like that people searching for those stars will have these things come up. And then for as far as video assets are concerned, you'll be able to upload Apple pro res four to two MPEG two and h two six fours, I'm going to have a link in the description for the show notes at indie film hustle.com Ford slash 07 for direct links to their technical requirements, all sorts of links that discussing things about Amazon Video direct. As far as audio specifications, you need to either have a one channel mono, two channel stereo left and right six, channel five, one or an eight, channel five, one mix. And the big kicker and this is where a lot of people are gonna have issues but it's going to be worth it, especially if you have features shorts or other things is you have to close caption everything. Everything has to be uploaded with a closed caption file because that is part of the rules. Now I know Closed captioning is a pain in the butt. But you can now afford fairly easily online, you can get closed captioning for about a buck a minute, if not sometimes cheaper, depending on how much you do. So for $1 a minute, you can get it closed caption with the proper file formats. The most common of those file formats is a dot s cc file. And you could do an SMT TT file, an XML file, d f x p file or an iTunes ITT file, but I would suggest that SCC file is the most common used one in the industry, you should be fine. All frame rates as well 20 398 20 420-530-2997 and 29 979 drop all those kinds of texts back sorry if I'm getting too geeky guys. I'm just gonna lay laying it all out. And again, you get all this information on on the show notes. Now what they're accepting is standalone films, or standalone videos, which are features, shorts or documentaries are all considered standalone titles, and episodic. So you can have a television show a web series, things that have a bunch of different episodes on it, you can do that a series you can upload a full series you can full up upload full seasons, all sorts of different content that you can upload there. So it is pretty remarkable what you can do guys and it's autumn automatically you're able to start generating revenue streams if you have an audience and even if you don't have an audience people searching for your stuff even if you just put it up there you can see whether people find it on Amazon or not. But if you can drive some traffic to it even more so giving people options and on top of it all you can connect everything with create space, create space is Amazon's kind of like make your movie or print your DVD on demand kind of thing. So you can offer DVDs of your movies as well. Without any upfront costs now mind you're not going to make a whole lot of money you'll make more money selling it digitally but if somebody wants to buy a DVD it's better better some money than no money and it allows you to do that all instantly so for independent filmmakers This is a huge huge game changer this just was released last week and that's how quickly I wanted to get it out to you guys so again, head over to indie film hustle calm Ford slash zero 74 and you'll get all the information download links everything you need to get hooked up with Amazon Video direct it is a game changer for everybody guys. So definitely check it out. Please let us know what your experiences are. Hit us up on our Facebook group and you can talk about that I'm going to be talking about that in our Facebook group, which is indie film, hustle calm for slash Facebook. Go in there sign up and we can talk about your experiences with Amazon. And this is just one revenue stream guys we did another episode called How to create multiple revenue streams for your for your indie film that was Episode 44. And you can check that out. I'll put that in the show notes as well. But this adds to that multiple revenue stream. There's so many different places where you can start creating multiple revenue streams for your film digitally online. It is a brand new world and it is something that you have access to things that you never have had access to before. So definitely check this out if I haven't said it enough. I'm really a big fan of Amazon Video direct the concept of it at least Let's hope it pans out. But it's you got nothing to lose a little bit of time to upload some stuff. And you're rocking and rolling. It's fairly straightforward, guys. So as always head over to filmmaking podcast calm and give us an honest review of the show. It really helps us out a lot. And don't forget to go to our YouTube channel has a ton of free content, video tutorials, all sorts of great stuff and we upload new videos every week. So head over to indie film, hustle, calm forward slash YouTube. As always, guys, keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive, and I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 073: Film Gear in Cinematography Today with Ernesto Lomeli

Oh, the dilemma! What film gear should I use for my film? Which camera will give me the look I want for my project? What gear can I afford? Well as I’ve said before:

“Film gear does not make a movie, the story does. No one ever won Sundance or an Oscar® because they used the latest and greatest film gear. They won because of, you guessed it, story.”

With that said choosing the right film gear for your project is important. You need to have the right paintbrush and not necessarily the most expensive or newest paintbrush to create your opus.

super 16mm film, Kodak, 16mm film, 16 mm film, 35mm film, 35 mm film, filmmaking, film school, filmmaker, indie film, ARRI SR2 ARRI SR3, Bolex, Eclair film camera, film camera

I thought it would be interesting to have cinematographer Ernesto Lomeli on the show. He’s one of the most technical film geeks I know. Ernesto shares a bunch of knowledge bombs with us in this interview and discusses what film gear to get and what you really need to make your project sing!

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 2:20
Now today's special guest is Ernesto Lomeli. He is a cinematographer and has an amazing story of how he's become a cinematographer who he's working with who his business partners are. The kind of gear he works with. He is easily one of the more gear heavy, extensive gear freaks that I know of. But yet he understand that it's just gear, but he loves his new gear. And he knows and plays with all of it. So he gets to play with all the toys. I've shot with Ernesto on multiple projects over the years. And I just love his energy. He's one of the most mellow guys you've ever met in your life. He is super awesome and extremely talented cinematographer. He does a lot of work, a lot of commercial work short form work music videos, and he travels the frickin world. I mean, every time I see him on Facebook somewhere, he's somewhere else in the world like and you know, seeing a passport or seeing out a window of an airplane. He's always traveling and he's a very worldly, cinematographer has done a lot, a lot of good work. So I thought he'd be a really nice guest to have on the show and really explain to you guys a little bit about gear a little bit about the process of cinematography and working with low budgets, which he does do often. And he's just a wealth of knowledge. So I wanted to bring him on the show for you guys. So sit back and enjoy my conversation with Ernesto Lomeli. I would like to welcome to the show Ernesto a good friend of mine and the most knowledgeable, gearhead, I know in regards to film gear and all things cinematography. Welcome to the show, sir.

Ernesto Lomeli 3:55
Hello.

Alex Ferrari 3:57
He's very quiet. Hopefully he will live in up as the interview goes on. Now I'm joking. So our guests and I go way back we've shot a bunch of projects together a couple music video, one music video and a few a bunch of commercials and stuff like that. So I know how to I love working with Ernesto. He's awesome. And every time that we have always worked together, we always brings out a lot of his toys. And then he tells me about all his other toys back at home. So I wanted to bring him on the show to kind of talk about his his perspective on being a cinematographer and all that kind of good stuff and gear, gear gear gear. I wanted to talk about gear cuz there's nobody, honestly that I know better, especially the dog in the background. know more about gear than Ernesto. So are you ready, sir?

Ernesto Lomeli 4:39
Oh, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 4:41
All right. So what what made you become a cinematographer in the first place,Ernesto?

Ernesto Lomeli 4:45
Um, Um, well, I kind of decided to do this freshman year of college. I was a big computer geek and at the same time, I was a big, still photographer. So I spent a lot of time in the darkroom and They used to geek out on cameras and lenses and, and at the same time, you know, build my little Pentium computer and geek out on that and log on to BBs systems, and all kinds of stuff like that. So I think they kind of just went hand in hand. And when I actually decided to go to, I graduated high school year early, and then I kind of spent that year kind of traveling and working and making money. And then eventually, when I had enough money for, for art school, I ended up going thinking I do photography, but it's just kind of boring, because you kind of just work by yourself, I remember the first assignments were like, go do this and go do that, and didn't really have anybody to work with and didn't really think that was fun. And I took some indie film, intro to filmmaking classes, and they were really cool because it was our group stuff. And it was super techie and really relied on your knowledge of the technology and filmmaking at the same time. So it was kind of cool, it was creative and technical. And you get to collaborate with people. And that's kind of I'm kind of a people person, too. So it kind of just kind of fit.

Nice and you went to asi right.

Went to asi, but first went to. I actually went to the Academy of Art in San Francisco, which at the time, was one of the better film schools back 15 years ago. They had a really good inventory of 35 millimeter cameras, and there just wasn't that many schools shooting 35 it was kind of the new big deal. school. It was before New York Film Academy. I mean, at that time, it was a sci fi which but that was a graduate school only. There was Chapman. Or no, I live it was before Chapman really had a film program. It was Brooks. There was the film school in Cuba, there was NYU. And then there was the watch Film Academy.

Alex Ferrari 6:57
Now the film school in Cuba, I've heard is insane.

Ernesto Lomeli 6:59
Yeah, it is. And but for some reason I was attracted to San Francisco. At the time I was I did High School in San Diego. And my older brother had graduated from San Francisco State. I had friends that lived up there. So it just seemed like a, like a good transition to move up there as a you know, 18 year old by yourself, and not be too far from anything. So

Alex Ferrari 7:26
You're kind of like a vagabond and in a lot of ways.

Ernesto Lomeli 7:29
Yeah. So it's pretty cool.

What was your experience at ASI? Because that's obviously such a prestigious school.

You know, it was funny, the whole time I was at the Academy of Art, all I was looking forward to was finishing so that I could have a portfolio prepared enough to be able to apply to ami. But at the time, in hindsight, I didn't realize how hard our little year of people at the Academy of Art Believe it or not in my because you know, especially in art school, and like art center and things like that. Your your freshman classes 400 deep, but you know, I remember in our film program, actually walking at graduation, there was only 30 of us, 35 of us. So it was a very close knit incestuous very competitive class that ended up graduating and I'll be honest with you, a lot of the people I graduated are very good working cinematographers right now. Nice. I think maybe I lucked out. But the year I went there, I feel like we were we were one of those classes that just one of those outlier classes it just kind of kicked butt and it was great because every single week, all we would do is try to up each other's projects and we would just jump from each other's jobs back and forth and everybody everybody would just work on everybody's projects non stop. And we were always trying to one up each other with how cool and how crazy in the lighting and you know how many favors we were able to pool and you know, how far we were able to bullshit our permit and this and that and, and by the time I finally got admitted to a phi i realized that most of the people I had already gone to school with and all these things that I had worked so hard for for the last few years. If I kind of felt like I had already done that, myself so hard, right, right. So so so hard by the time I made it to a fi It was kind of redundant. Don't get me wrong, there were still some amazing things like Steven Knight Hill was an amazing chair. Bill Dale is the man even to this day, I will always place an eyeline because I'm scared of Bill Daley yelling at me.

Alex Ferrari 9:55
I know I noticed that when we work together that you actually put an eye light on everything.

Ernesto Lomeli 10:00
Yeah, I mean, it's it's just one of those things, you know, you get yelled at it about it so hard. But um, you know, I lines, I lights, things like that were things I learned that if I but the reality is, after my first year I just, I didn't really see the need to continue and my teachers themselves even told me they're like, Hey, you know, you're good you're getting if you're getting offers for work, you should go work, don't spend another year and another, you know 60 something $1,000 here, they're like, go do it. It's like, all right, you're right. And so that's what I did. I never went back for my thesis. I basically finished everything except my thesis.

Alex Ferrari 10:43
So the the one fascinating thing he told me a story that you told me is that you actually partnered up with the academy award winning Gizmo Nevado as a partner, and I'd love for you to tell everybody that story because it's a fascinating story.

Ernesto Lomeli 10:58
Um, yeah, it's actually quite funny. I was working as a camera assistant, here in LA for a few years. And a producer I was working with we were doing a we're shooting a Bushmills commercial, and producer was Cuban. And believe it or not, I mean, there's just although you see a lot of, you know, Mexican cinematographers winning Academy Awards. There's not really that many, you know, Hispanic, Latino, or Mexicans that are actually working in the film industry. Trust me, I know, in proper positions, right, that security crappy. The truth is, I mean, when people say that, you know, when you say you're in camera department, or you know, you're the DP people are like, Oh, really, like, Oh, that's interesting. So at the time, so it, people really do kind of want to help each other out. It's like a whole, it's like a immigrant, kind of just mentality of everybody, you know, a rising, rising tide lifts all ships kind of thing. So, producer I did that job with he was doing a job up in San Francisco with Guillermo, and Guillermo just had a hernia operation, he needed an operator. And he's like, hey, if you want to come up and do this job, he's like, the money sucks. But, you know, you might get to work with somebody really cool. And he told me who it was. And I was like, Yeah, dude, you don't even have to pay me. I'll be there. You know? Of course, of course, always, you know, he won the Academy Award for Pan's Labyrinth, but I'll be honest with you one of the most amazingly shot movies I've ever seen as the devil's backbone. And just those sequences with those kids in that orphanage, mom in the courtyard is just

Alex Ferrari 12:47
Gorgeous. It's gorgeous, gorgeous stuff.

Ernesto Lomeli 12:49
It really is. It really really is so

Alex Ferrari 12:53
And for, for those people who don't know who we're talking about, again, Guillermo Navarro has worked a lot with Guillermo Del Torro he's done most of his movies, right?

Ernesto Lomeli 13:00
Yes. Yeah. So he shot his first film.

Alex Ferrari 13:04
Exactly. So that's who we're talking about when we say get one of our for those who are not in the know. So continue sir.

Ernesto Lomeli 13:11
Um, so anyways, we ended up going up to San Francisco at the time, I had already been working in LA working as an assistant working as a low budget indie cinematographer. And at that time, I had already had always liked to own equipment because I'm kind of a techie geek

Alex Ferrari 13:32
Do you the ultimate sir I've been I've been in I've been in your place sir. I just drool every time

Ernesto Lomeli 13:41
And you know through film school besides working on set, I had worked at a rental house there for years so it was just one of those things that everything just went hand in hand was just you know, you want to learn how to get the shot you know, you asked to borrow that lens through that adapter. So gear for me was just you know, it's like I always looked at it, at least in my head and maybe this is how I justified it. But I always thought of it as you know, being a carpenter and knowing your tools. It's having pause different every chisels different you know, everything is everything has its purpose and I never understood people that would just always go out and read something different all the time. It's like you have to use it 5678 times before you like really get a feel for it. Like you really really get a feel with how that lens is gonna flare. How does it really look on the face How does it contrast You know, when does it lose contrast? You know, and and every lens on every camera on every sensor on every film sight, black, completely different and, and it's just this it's like being a chef and you know, being asked to cook with a spice rack, you know, set a spices for the first time and you're expecting to be fantastic at it. It's like no, you have to know how to use everything.

Alex Ferrari 14:57
You have to know how to use those spices because a little bit too much of this. Little not enough of that won't make it work

Ernesto Lomeli 15:02
That and you know it, the dynamic of the film industry is changing. Everybody wants a deal. So you know, you being able to come out as a package with equipment and you know, as a starving cinematographer, obviously, you know, they never have money for your labor and they barely have any money for gear. So when you combine those two, you kind of always work, we got a living. Now you're not really making a profit, but at least you know, you're just working. And somebody's literally paying you to practice your craft. Right? Right. And I found that invaluable. So that was my approach. I worked through camera department, but at the same time in parallel, I was doing the indie film hustle. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 15:48
Exactly. Nice plug, sir, I appreciate that. So you and get more partners in a company and you guys work together. And I like to have a ton of cameras that you work with together, correct?

Ernesto Lomeli 15:58
Yes, so. So gamma, and a lot of film cameras, I owned a couple of digital cameras, and we decided to team up, right, as kind of digital revolution was really happening. The Reds, the reds, you know, we were about to transition into the epics, the Alexa was just about to come out. And so we started working together in news. Now he has a world of knowledge, storytelling, wise and visually, and I got lucky enough to be kind of the guy who knows, you know, my breadth of knowledge visually is good, but obviously nowhere near as good as a master like him. But I did have a pretty good bridge towards that. And, you know, technically what is coming out and, and I think we made really good partners. And over the last few years, we've, you know, we've been kicking butt nice, him doing his movies and, and me working my way through a commercial roster. And once again, you know, he had that same mentality of like, why am I going to make other people money? I could, I could get a loan or hustling hard or do this, and then it's like, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have my own tools. You know, we both came from that. From that same world, maybe it's like a pull yourself up from your bootstraps kind of immigrant mentality, or some

Alex Ferrari 17:28
You know what I'll tell you, I think, you know, being being the guy who's hustled all his life, you know, and coming from market like Miami, which is I'm sure you've shot in Miami, so it's not LA, as far as a market is concerned. So in order to be able to make a living, you've got to do things that you're not, you know, you're not, you're not normal, it's not taught that way. So like with you with your gear, mine with my gear, my gear was post. So I would, I would have all the gear for posts and then sell myself out or sell the suite out, and they wouldn't pay my time, but they'd pay for the suite and so on and so forth. Because that was kind of the way everything was going. But it's it's a special mentality. So hustle, no question.

Ernesto Lomeli 18:08
So but at the same time, it's like you never really trying to make money you're trying to make enough to pay for everything, but you really want to do is just get the next cool project.

Alex Ferrari 18:20
Right, exactly. And sometimes that knowledge in that gear will help you get to that point, which which leads me right to my next question. You got to shoot some second unit on Pacific Rim. Is that correct?

Ernesto Lomeli 18:30
I actually did the epilogue and the title sequence.

Alex Ferrari 18:36
Right. And that was that must have been amazing to work on such a huge budget.

Ernesto Lomeli 18:41
Yeah, it was pretty cool. Um, as they were finishing up the film. They needed a way to explain this world. Yeah. And my friend, Matthew Collin. partners with Guillermo del Toro is a production company called Murata they tasked Marotta and Matt to direct this this is prologue as to how we got to this world Pacific Rim in two or three minutes and explain the kaiju and explain how it How did it happen and what worked and what didn't work and you know why we are where we are now and trying to do it in a graphic beautiful, intense way that's not just text in two to three minutes It wasn't easy. The film was being market tested and as they were screening it and asking them you know, the studio was asking for changes and this and that because certain story aspects when making sense all of a sudden we would be sent out you know, fly around the world and shoot you know, recreation of a riot sequence somewhere in Thailand or you know, Shoot slums in the Philippines so that later we could comp in giant robots in you know things like that and recreating basically recreating a backstory and at the same time we we got to have a really cool adventure basically

Alex Ferrari 20:18
Now is you've obviously worked on a lot of commercials, a lot of music videos and and worked on. You've never you haven't shot a feature yet, but you do. You're mostly doing commercials and music music videos at this point, correct?

Ernesto Lomeli 20:29
Yeah, it's mostly. You know, I'm 33 years old, which is still pretty young

Alex Ferrari 20:35
God, you are you and I didn't know you were that young. He pissed me off, sir. Sorry, go ahead.

Ernesto Lomeli 20:42
You know, I feel like I'm you know, as much as I would love to be somewhere else and be doing, you know, movies. And I feel like I got very lucky with circle of people that trust me very well that they themselves have come up over the years, like I am where I am. Because now as an assistant to production managers, and a coordinator, you know, we were all hustling together. And as the years went by, they moved up and I moved up, and then all of a sudden, it's like, Hey, I have a job. Do you want to do it? Yeah. Yeah. Because there's a sense of trust. And then after a few other jobs, you know, somebody else trusts you, and you're just your circles to start growing through awesome. reputation. And of course, your body of work, but it's pretty rare for somebody to hire me just from something they saw on that website. You know, that's always they heard of me, right through word of mouth. Yeah, through word of mouth, or they were a client's on a job, or they were the, you know, they were helping producer job, or they were doing something on a job. And when they got their job, they're like, Hey, are you interested? And now slowly, but surely, your Rolodex just started growing and growing and growing and growing, and it's the snowball effect, man, as long as you keep doing good work and have a good attitude. It's just gonna keep drunks, but I I'm in commercial lenders, that's my roster, right? People You know, that's my my click. What like commercials?

Alex Ferrari 22:14
Well, what I find fascinating about you is you probably the most mellow man I know. And onset no matter how crazy it is, you are the most mellow so it's, it's fascinating to to work with you. And that's because a lot of people aren't like that on film sets, as I'm sure you know.

Ernesto Lomeli 22:36
It's funny because I, I've worked for other DPS that were kind of crazy. And after one job, I just kind of even not consciously you just kind of go I don't know if I want to do that job again with you. Yeah, right now they call you for a job and you know, like, anything that I could you know, especially before you know, I was in the union has always been like, well, how much money is there? And what is it? I don't really want to do this with you. I am all right. I think I'd rather not be sad all day. kill myself after you know, you feel dirty after doing a job as somebody mistreats you right breast out that's mistreating other people. It's just like, why am I even here? And it's like, you know, it goes back to that same, you know, same mentality is like, why are you doing this is because you love it because you want to have fun. And, you know, when you when you want to achieve a certain position and a certain job title, like you're responsible, like you want to be a cinematographer, but you're pulling focus, or you're loading magazines, or you're downloading cards. You, you can't help but feel, especially when you're working with somebody don't respect you're like, man, I could do their job. And I could hit so much better. No more frustrating thought that could enter your mind to ruin your day. Yep, then that. And I was very careful not to put myself in those positions, because I saw myself my own mental state being poisoned, and I didn't like that. So I got lucky enough to work with really cool people. Even in low positions, I didn't really fucking care. Because in the end, I was working with some of the people that I really respected. And the bigger and the bigger and the bigger the DPS and the directors I got to work under the more and more I realized they're really cool. And they're confident because this is like the 500th commercial they shot. Yeah, and they have a sweet commercial 20 times, you know, last 40 years or 30 years and like, it's just it's just another day in the office. You know, it's like an athlete going out to play a game you know, it's just the big game. They're like, yeah, it is but It's what I do you know it's and it's it really changes people's attitude on set it's like oh wow we're really behind and we're waiting on our department and the truck hasn't landed and the lights in the wrong place because we're three hours behind and originally This is going to be backlit but now it's frontlit and you know and and the mentality from all these people that I would work with who is just like whoa, figure it out It's not my fault so I'm just gonna figure out the best way to just do it and and not lose sleep over it you know and it's and it's a great mentality and you know, attitude if you've ever been on a bad film shoot if you've ever been on yeah attitude is all you have you know, it really carries along the entire job and it trickles from the top you know, it doesn't good attitude doesn't trickle a trickle up it trickles down to

Alex Ferrari 25:58
The PA with a good attitude is not gonna it's not gonna make James Cameron not do what he does

Ernesto Lomeli 26:03
Not gonna change the shoot but a director or a dp with a shitty attitude will definitely poison a department or a whole crew and make a lot of people really angry or frustrated or not even want to be there

Alex Ferrari 26:17
Because it's a tough it's a tough business in general just to do the job sometimes being on set for 12 hours 14 hours and having to do it's a high stress high pressure situation sometimes and having you know toxic

Ernesto Lomeli 26:30
Because eventually it just kind of turns into a routine it's just another day

Alex Ferrari 26:33
But when you have the right people when you don't have the right people

Ernesto Lomeli 26:37
Yeah it's it's all about perspective correct projecting an attitude and sometimes you just got to let stuff not get to you and and if you are lucky enough to realize that you're actually making a living doing this and people are hiring you you realize you're kind of in a really good position so it's like so what if the sun really isn't where you want it to be? You know what we'll just figure it out maybe I could talk to the director into shooting it on tight lenses or no maybe we can just wait a little bit longer and get that nice beautiful light and sunset or they pack it ask them to turn it around the other way right right right.

Alex Ferrari 27:16
You just figure it out, just figure it out

Ernesto Lomeli 27:17
You always got yeah i mean that's that's just the thing you got to just figure it out.

Alex Ferrari 27:22
Now what is your favorite camera if Do you have a favorite camera and to shoot and why

Ernesto Lomeli 27:29
You know what I get asked this a lot I'm sure there is this inherent bias

Alex Ferrari 27:36
Yes yes I'm waiting for it go for it

Ernesto Lomeli 27:41
People are camera racist

Alex Ferrari 27:45
That's the best terminology have ever heard camera racism I

Ernesto Lomeli 27:51
Oh my god well especially agency camera department assistant directors before camera racist and it's because reason to believe other people's propaganda and bought it right right.

Alex Ferrari 28:09
It's like computer races like computer Mac versus PC or it's or editing racism.

Ernesto Lomeli 28:15
Like, like Chevy Ford. Yeah, I know. stuff kind of mentalities. It's like they do the same thing it gets you

Alex Ferrari 28:25
From different they have different flavors but are different flavors

Ernesto Lomeli 28:29
You know so I mean I'm obviously in a very unique position in that we own everything so but you know most people they rent everything so it doesn't matter there's there's just this thing that happens where people saw the end it all started I think with the behind the scenes featurettes on DVDs You know, it wasn't just American cinematographer and things like that it was it became mainstream when you would see the behind the scenes movies that being shot and you know you'd get the commentary but more and more people were watching it because it was you know, is part of these beautiful DVD feature at the bonus features and be like oh we're shooting on this with these lenses and we're shooting on this with with this film stock or these lenses and all of a sudden you guys asking you like well I want to shoot on this

Alex Ferrari 29:26
Right oh no and let's not even get into the genius marketing that is red camera

Ernesto Lomeli 29:31
I'll be honest with you they're all the same and I know the red noise pretty well No no, I'm

Alex Ferrari 29:36
Not talking about the cameras. I'm talking about the genius marketing. Like what red did they kind of ambush the film industry?

Ernesto Lomeli 29:44
Yeah, yeah, cuz they really were doing something but we'll get into that. Okay. I you know, there's many times where I get asked from a client to shoot a project on something that is completely the wrong because that's

Alex Ferrari 29:59
Yeah, yeah. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show

Ernesto Lomeli 30:11
Oh yeah like oh you know we need to run in gun a lot we're going to be jumping through different countries we're going to be kind of just landing and scouting maybe we could shoot some sunset plates while we're there and then we're going to need to do this and that like okay, I can I want to shoot it on anamorphic on Alexa asked for an 80 pound camera everything and you know just as the batteries to power that for the day because we're not going to have access to power we're going to be hauling around 200 pounds with a batteries if it's not the right tool for that job

Alex Ferrari 30:49
It's like tell and I always tell people it's like telling your plumber what plunger to use like it's his job to know what tools to do the job with

Ernesto Lomeli 30:59
Tell me what you want it to look like right and it's like I'm gonna be the asshole who's gonna have to have it on my shoulder for 12 hours right there's a whole there's there's that you know and it's it's so silly

Alex Ferrari 31:13
It is and I look I get it I get it on my into like before like a Final Cut versus avid versus premiere. Now the Vinci versus baseline I'm like guys just please you know let me What do you want to do want to look Do you want pretty pictures? I'll make them pretty just you know

Ernesto Lomeli 31:32
Obviously you know sometimes there are certain requirements

Alex Ferrari 31:35
Ofcourse get you either workflow issues or things like that. That's understand emotion right

Ernesto Lomeli 31:41
Right. frame rate size and yeah, there's always something but I feel a lot of people are like hardcore read users hardcore Alexa users, they would not even dare you know, yeah, use the other one it's like it's here's something that people don't realize that beautiful set of lenses that you know they used to shoot x movie on x camera is gonna look completely different if you use those same lenses on a different sensor Of course, you know and and the way you

Alex Ferrari 32:18
Like it, or in a film plane for that matter

Ernesto Lomeli 32:21
Every single lens sees CCD combo gives completely different images. A set of cooks are gonna flare one way Lexa another way on the Phantom another way on film and then another way on red it's just the way it is. certain characteristics will be there right but just different

Alex Ferrari 32:45
It's just a tip just it's completely different you know I've been I've been a red guy for a while but I know and I jump on I jump on a live shot on election I've worked with Alexa project worked on black magic you know there's so many different cameras DSLRs all sorts of different things you just kind of have to if you hire a good dp just let them choose the proper tool as long as it works for the workflow and that you're able to handle that workflow and that conversation is had because I'm coming from the post then you know if you're if you're working on a laptop and they give you 8k probably not a good idea.

Ernesto Lomeli 33:21
Yeah, and I mean I've done jobs where I've been really lucky to sometimes work on these like video installation wall pieces like we did we did the centennial with AI for IBM this beautiful installation piece at Lincoln Center a few years ago. Last year we shot the film that's the headquarters of visa so we shot this beautiful around the world peace but like the visa job I think the deliver the final deliverable one that was 12k and you see to one aspect ratio Oh Jesus you know at the time we want to shoot as xcite it's like

Alex Ferrari 34:05
No not happening not today

Ernesto Lomeli 34:09
The wrong tool for the job because you have such a such a specific post requirement. So we ended up shooting 6k Dragon with a custom resolution ratio to use every single pixel we did in a three to one ratio knowing that it was going to be tile stacked and and even then they were going to have to duplicate pixels and stuff but

Alex Ferrari 34:32
Yeah, now you're getting into a whole other conversation.

Ernesto Lomeli 34:34
Yeah, I mean, obviously I'm pretty techie with sure of course of course. But those you know, that's one of those things. It's like the right tool for the top.

Alex Ferrari 34:45
Now do you have a favorite lens package that you use? There's like it do is a preferred lens package you use

Ernesto Lomeli 34:51
Right now I think for the last two years I've kind of really been in love with my set of uncoated cooks.

Alex Ferrari 34:57
Oh uncoded cooks. Okay, nice. Can you explain Can you play Everybody want a coated a coated cookies and I'm not code because I remember when you were, I was in your place when we were talking about it, or he used to just gotten them one of the two. And they're gorgeous

Ernesto Lomeli 35:12
Cooks are obviously these beautiful handmade lenses with this long lineage. There are a set of optics that have been around since they were telescopes in England as well as a Tyler Tyler cook, Heather cook. You know, it's if you ever hear old, old movies, the old Pancras people, you know, they would call it the one inch the two inch. That's how we used to do focal lengths based on the length of the actual lens, because there was only one set of lenses in Hollywood, you know, right. So bring out the one inch lens bring out the right, you know, 25 5075, that kind of thing. So they have this very classic, classic look. But they tend to be quite warm. And on digital sensors, I find them to be overly warm. So cook did this brilliant thing with a set of their mini as far as where they sold the front element with the coatings on the front elements before they apply the anti reflective coating on it. So if you shoot with a set of slices, or if you shoot with a set of cannons or whatever, especially on devices, you know, I remember when we were coming up like the super speeds were were still kind of the lenses, they would have the T coatings on right now. And that was a really big, big deal because you know, they would flare a certain way you could shoot, you know, into the sun, you could shoot headlights, you could do things like that, and the image would fall apart. And it was these these amazing coatings that sys had designed that hold contrast really well in high contrast situations. Or would it hold a flare and keep contrast? The problem that happens is you know, as light overwhelms lens, you tend to lose contrast, which you know, makes the image look soft, or you lose any detail in the image, they just, the light just bounces back and forth in between all the all the different elements of glass, and it just creates pollution basically. So they coat these lenses with these special coatings. So the light kind of only travels in one direction when it wants to bounce back, it gets absorbed or deflected. And it doesn't really pollute the image very much. So that's where you get these beautiful sharp flares. But cook decided to try doing an Amash to an older look. When they first marketed these lenses they marketed as the rebirth of the Pancras, which was their first generation of cinema lenses. So they decided to sell a version with the front elements without coatings to kind of give it that softer kind of more, Larry, classic look. And I really liked them because it's new lenses with kind of a middle ground old look. And I don't know, I just, I've really fallen in love with them. But at the same time I shoot with everything. Right? Alright, but those are kind of the ones I they're just always on the truck. Always with me, you know, well, that's one of the beauty of owning gear too. It's like, you know, sometimes you know, you're going to need a big long, you know, the way the day is going to go, you're going to be on a dolly on a long zoom, and you're just going to spray down every scene because you have you know, celebrity talent, you're going to do the lines three times, whatever and you just need to shoot the wide, medium and tight with, you know, your schedule is so tight. You can't afford to, you know, five minutes to flip a lens and recalibrate everything. You just gotta go go, go, go go. Now what, when you you'll have a big zoom. But I always keep a case of primes in the back, you know, just in case.

Alex Ferrari 38:56
Now what's a good zoom? Like if you were going to rent or zoom or something like that, in your opinion.

Ernesto Lomeli 39:02
I know there's so many once again, your flavor your flavor, sir. I'm an optimal guy. Okay, so this I think everybody in the industry, I think 90% of everything you see on television is shot on a set of outcomes.

Alex Ferrari 39:15
Got it. And that's a pretty expensive lens if I'm not mistaken.

Ernesto Lomeli 39:19
Oh, well, they make a quite a big variety. But yes, they are very expensive because they're very complicated, very precise, and they're workhorses.

Alex Ferrari 39:29
They just last,

Ernesto Lomeli 39:30
They just freakin it's a precision piece of equipment that gets thrown in a case tossed in the back of a van. slammed onto a camera, handheld, run around, push the places you're in the forest, you're in the jungle, you're dead, it's hot, it's cold. Yeah, it's hot, it's cold. Some idiot doesn't know how to use it. Some other guy really knows how to use it. Like it's just one of the things that it's just they're just so well made, but I'll be honest with you Almost all lenses are pretty darn durable.

Alex Ferrari 40:03
The pandemic obviously depends on if you're looking at the higher end stuff like I mean, I have a set of a broken ons, which is just a, you know, a little little set that I bought for my, my little shooting that I do here and there nothing that I would do for a client. But and those I always look at they're kind of they're metal, but they're not, I wouldn't rent them out, let's just put it that way they're not gonna last.

Ernesto Lomeli 40:26
I mean, you it's the thing with filming equipment is you just have to understand, you get what you pay for. Yep. And this is no six unit not being screwed. You know, people aren't charging you five times as much as the Chinese version just because they're trying to make a profit. Believe it or not, a lot of equipment is still you know, even though it's CMC, it's all batches. And it took somebody a long time to figure out how to make it and it's a company with very few employees, things like that. And no matter how expensive you think it is, it's barely making them any money. They're doing it out of passion like Zeiss. Their cinema division is less than 1% of the company.

Alex Ferrari 41:16
Yeah, cuz they do so many other kinds of optics.

Ernesto Lomeli 41:20
If you if you just if you just take into account microscopes that they make for the medical industry. Yeah, I mean, just there alone, just optics for telescopes, optics for military use. I mean, it's so much bigger yet, they still keep their cinema division, because I love it. Obviously division. It's kind of like a race car.

Alex Ferrari 41:41
Right, right. It's not a profitable thing. But it's a prestige thing.

Ernesto Lomeli 41:45
A prestige thing. Yeah. And the truth is, they really do develop some really interesting technologies with coatings and mechanics and things like that, through their cinema division that later gets incorporated into other things. But it's, it's their race team. So what it is,

Alex Ferrari 42:02
So I always wanted to talk to I always like talking to cinematographers about this question. Because it's it's kind of a touchy subject with because you're a professional you work with, obviously, professional, high end cameras. What do you think of the DSLR movement and DSLRs? in general? I'll tell you my multicam my point of view after you tell me yours?

Ernesto Lomeli 42:23
Well, when we started working on the five D first came out Sure. And and once again, it goes back to the whole other people telling you what to do what you should do your job on, we would get agency saying we want to shoot on a pipe. She's, like, the most amazing thing.

Alex Ferrari 42:47
Just analyze, just analyze that comment again. Like we saw the most amazing thing shot on the five D on YouTube, I'm like, Really?

Ernesto Lomeli 42:54
Yes. And they go oh, and it's cheap. And it's this and that it's like, yes, but you want me to be able to shoot super show that the field running gun, you want to be able to see it, you want to be able to have the director see it, you want to have a wireless feed to 500 feet away at all times. You want to be able to feed audio into it, you want to be able to and all of a sudden, that $2,000 camera that's renting for $150 a day. That's 40 grand with the things attached to it, you know, in a $50,000 lens just to make it work, just to make it work at the temple that you need to on a professional set where time is money. Oh god, that's such a great point of view. So it was just so ridiculous. And we all knew it was ridiculous, except the client. And they were loving it. And they would eat their own. Like they would believe their own height. Right? It's like oh, yeah, that that Yeah, we want to clear for it. Yeah, we only shot that and it's just ego right package for that five D was costing you two grand a day.

Alex Ferrari 44:05
So you could have had a right you could have had a full read package or even a new package to

Ernesto Lomeli 44:09
Shoot this out around. Well, it's because they wanted to be able to say they shot it, it's like, well, we have all these motion blur issues. We have to like redesign all these shots because there's no global shutter and refresh rate on the center. Or like, you know, it's it's just all these little things, and there's

Alex Ferrari 44:29
A whole movement, you know, I know Shawn, or Shane Herbert, the guy, the dpu got yelled at by Christian Bale. He loves the DSLRs but I'm not sure how much of that is real or hype or he's just trying to sell stuff. But I think

Ernesto Lomeli 44:46
I mean, in all honesty, he's definitely trying to make money. He's just don't get me wrong. He is a sponsor.

Alex Ferrari 44:56
He's a real dp. I mean, he's he's just he's he's really

Ernesto Lomeli 44:59
He's very talented. Yeah. But it's his hustle. He's how he

Alex Ferrari 45:05
He's also our

Ernesto Lomeli 45:06
The reason he, you know, as much as he says he shoots with these cannons, he doesn't he, he does do a fair amount of things with them. But they're rarely his ache. Right? You know, he'll do some jobs with like 2020, c 300, things like that, because that's the kind of job for it. But you know,

Alex Ferrari 45:27
He's not shooting Terminator with that. No, he's not, he's not shooting a real movie

Ernesto Lomeli 45:32
It's part of the marketing thing you got to remember, like, for some odd reason, because of this DSLR thing, everything became the the market, the film market went from being a very obscure, tiny, very specialized, very expensive set of people to this just ballooned exponential number, because of things like YouTube and the internet being fast enough for you to be able to stream video, and there's just a market for a lot of video, like, it just, it's just exists. So the quality went down, because the quantity went up. And it's just is what it is. And so, I mean, everybody I know, that makes things for the film industry, they want to be able to say they made stuff with the red and for the Alexa and for the, you know, for whatever, but the truth is, they're really making their money selling the DSLR base plates, because they're going to sell 1000 of them, you know, as opposed to 90, you know, little Alexa cheese plates, you know, they're gonna sell 1000, you know, XLR adapters to, you know, mini trs is, that's, that's really,

Alex Ferrari 46:48
It's money, it's money. It's just money, it's all about money. So basically, obviously, my point of view from DSLRs is every every DSLR project has walked through my doors, and I've done probably four or five features shot on the DSLR which frustrates the hell out of me. Because DSLRs Yes, if you have a good dp, you have a ton of gear attached to it, you have great lighting, that you can get some good images out of it. Sure. But, and then you could do something within an imposed, but everything I've ever done has always been, you know, you know, under under hat with God, like under $200,000 $100,000 features that are, you know, just jamming it through and then they're like, Well, why can't I call her this? I'm like, because there's no latitude, and you've you've Yeah, shot at night.

Ernesto Lomeli 47:34
For some odd reason. People think that they could save money. No, they don't they hurt themselves on the year. And it's just like, just do it. Right. Do it. Right. Well, I mean, I understand there are certain projects where DSLRs are great. Yeah, I was doing, you know, around the world kind of docu job. Yep, no, I would always have a DSLR or something. Steel shot. So you could do this and that. So you could have a second unit that you can just send off and do stuff,

Alex Ferrari 48:02
You can shoot beautiful bottom lines, you can shoot some really beautiful images with a DSLR if you know what you're doing, and there's no question about that, but

Ernesto Lomeli 48:10
It's good, it's the right tool for the job, correct. You know, if you are if you want to work with, you know, see quality equipment, but one in a quality product, it's a tool for the job, and you're gonna end up paying for it, whether it's with us having to wait for for your crew onset, because they have to put, you know, a focus ring on these little SLR lenses, or the depth of field is so shallow that they just can't get this, they can't get the shot in focus. You know, the director can't really see or, you know, all these things, you're gonna pay for it later, whether it's with time or whether it's having to correct a bunch of things and post you know, it's just things cost what they cost and you're not going to you're not there's no magic doesn't exist. Yeah, exactly. could save a little here knowing you're gonna have to pay for it later. And that's fine. If you want to pass the buck home. Maybe you know, you only have so much money for your live action part of your project. You get a rough cut together, you know, you raise more funds and then you know, you'll have more money for post and that's great. You know, but I don't think most people think about it like that.

Alex Ferrari 49:22
Well, I think I also like the movie tangerine that was shot on the iPhone. Everyone's like, well, now we call make movies on the iPhone, you know, the new iPhone, and it shoots 4k and all this stuff. And I'm like, Guys, the guy who shot tangerine, he didn't he wasn't a kid that just grabbed his iPhone and shot a movie. He's a professional, who knew what he was doing. And he used it as an IT WAS a tool that he wanted to use to tell that story. the aesthetics of how to

Ernesto Lomeli 49:48
Do you remember do you remember the whole dogma kind of revolution, if you will. I remember

Alex Ferrari 49:54
I remember the Canon when God what was that one, the mini DV cameras came out the DSD VX LAN yeah the SL one those those cameras I remembered there was like a feature shot with it with Katie Holmes and like that was like oh, what was that 28 days Danny Boyle shot a whole thing on 24p on it

Ernesto Lomeli 50:15
People don't realize that they use those tools because they had a specific look right? And then you try to apply that fabric mask you know, it's just everybody wants to do everybody wants to do something for less and sometimes it's a race to the bottom I feel like the whole DSLR thing is kind of gone away I haven't been asked to shoot anything.

Alex Ferrari 50:39
No because because the bigger cameras have become so affordable like I mean you can get a read so affordably now the technology has gotten so better and I think people finally figured it out that DSLRs are not

Ernesto Lomeli 50:52
You're not always the right tool for the job but sometimes they are you know absolutely absolutely some crazy body mount stuff or the things with the drones like the GH foreigner drone is beautiful and you know we've been doing a bunch of body rigged stuff and we always you know the ACE seven S is fantastic for things like that

Alex Ferrari 51:12
It's just using the right tool at the right time for the right job

Ernesto Lomeli 51:15
That's all it is. And but for some reason people are camera races this is what he This is what we should shoot on it's like no but it doesn't mean I can't love everybody I can't love all of them right I have their place

Alex Ferrari 51:30
Now this is another big question how many K's Do we really need because it's getting out of hand

Ernesto Lomeli 51:39
I mean it kind of comes down to I remember when we were still shooting film and right when he started coming around Pete we would go to a color correction the house would ask you like hey, do you want to color correct and standard def it's going to be this much right? Or do you want to color correct in HD will give you two masters you know a beta SP SD that's letterbox and we'll give you you know an HD Cam 1080 for the future just in case right and you know it's $1,000 more $2,000 more for color correct in HD because it has to scan it sure sure sure if it scanner a different this different that people would be like no no no we don't need that. And sometimes they didn't you know sometimes the project didn't really do that. You know, just like YouTube and things like that. It's like a lot of content we make notes just for the web. Right? But Vimeo and YouTube they have 4k players which are on TVs, which are on TVs no I just bought a 4k TV

Alex Ferrari 52:54
Of course you did why would why wouldn't you own a 4k TV I'm sorry I'm surprised you don't own a 6k TV sir.

Ernesto Lomeli 52:59
Well I actually didn't have a TV for like the last six years

Alex Ferrari 53:03
no I know you don't have a TV app but I just know when you said you have a 4k TV it just makes sense.

Ernesto Lomeli 53:09
For a long time that market TV is I wanted to see what some of these Netflix shows

Alex Ferrari 53:16
and how they look

Ernesto Lomeli 53:18
they look really nice even streaming Yeah, I mean obviously it's it's not DCI spec you know sure shape but it's you Hd 2160 P and it's you know it's it's more resolution it looks really nice.

Alex Ferrari 53:34
But let me ask you a question like again with the whole case I did a whole article about 4k which is one of the most controversial articles I've written and podcast I've did was about why indie filmmakers shoot and shoot 4k and the reason I said that was I wanted people to understand that there's a work there's workflow issues and if a lot of people will get themselves in trouble

Ernesto Lomeli 53:55
there is workflow issues and I mean five years ago and red first came

Alex Ferrari 53:59
out oh god that was nothing for it was very painful it was that's how I made the truth

Ernesto Lomeli 54:06
is now I mean drives are so cheap and everything is so fast. I mean my iMac just blow through footage with an integrated you know CUDA card it's fine um,

Alex Ferrari 54:19
but again for like it depends on you. You have that information you have that knowledge I have that gear that can push that kind of stuff. But sometimes filmmakers get themselves caught into like and if it's not 4k, it's 5k or 6k or 8k or whatever it is. Just understand the work most

Ernesto Lomeli 54:33
people I mean most people don't realize it but I would say two thirds of all TV are still shot 10 ADP. Oh yeah. Quick times on an Alexa on a five six year old Alexa. Yeah, and it's more than enough. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 54:52
So at a certain point, like now the 8k just came out. We're gonna be shooting.

Ernesto Lomeli 54:55
Yeah, we actually have two of those. Really excited Of course. Do one of those heavy jobs like

Alex Ferrari 55:06
yeah and also that's another thing visual effects guys do not like 4k that I know and they definitely

Ernesto Lomeli 55:11
love it well well but it's when you need it

Alex Ferrari 55:15
it's when you need it it's when you need it but also depends on like the VFX guys I work with that you know are doing Spectre and you know all the big you know, Star Wars and all these big movies, they are dealing in 4k but they're just like you know, even they're like when you're doing those frame by frame it just it's a hog and sometimes all

Ernesto Lomeli 55:35
depends on whether you have to do I think in the end, it always comes down to whether you have to do CGI 4k. Yeah, that's the thing. When you have to start actually rendering things. That's what I'm talking about 3d and 4k, and comping beast, it's ridiculous and then comping it and then we shot last year we shot the the you HD content for the new Samsung 4k. So all if you went to a best buy new sauce, Samsung TV, more than likely the little video that was playing I shot and arguments that we would get into it the client department, the engineering department had talked the marketing department into they had this thing and it made sense, but it wasn't the right tool for the job. They wanted to shoot 8k on the Sony f 65. Right which can interpolate. interpolate right and aka image based on the raw sure sensor. Sure, sure. There is an extra pixel for luminance and the ROB processor on on that computer will interpolate an 8k image out of it. And they wanted us to shoot everything aka so that they could down resit, back to 2160 GPU, you Hd 4k. So that would be the sharpest image possible, right? And guess what happened?

Alex Ferrari 57:09
What happened?

Ernesto Lomeli 57:10
There was one sequence where we had to shoot 1000 frames a second, we did these things with these football players on the stage. Okay, beautiful, you know, guy catching a football with streaming stadium lights behind the gorgeous stuff. It's just gorgeous, you know, and it was to show off the ability to hold contrast between a very dark situation and holding skin tones and things like colorful and vibrant. This is day two of a four day shoot. We brought out that camera we shot that sequence. And they were just so blown away with how pretty that sensor was. And I was like, Yeah, but it's not the 8k wanted. You know, it's it's DCI spec 4k. But it's not,

Alex Ferrari 57:59
which is more than it was just more than

Ernesto Lomeli 58:00
it's slightly bigger than 2160 p you know, it's 4096 by 2308. You know, it's just slightly bigger. But you know, we did five conference calls and you specifically wanted AK. And they're like, this looks so pretty great. So we set the 65 home which nobody wanted for workflow reasons. And, of course, files are so big. Yeah, they're

Alex Ferrari 58:31
not. That's the one thing that red has above I think about a lot is their, their compression for their. Their files have been awesome all the way through all the time.

Ernesto Lomeli 58:40
We were shooting 4k on the Phantom flex, yep. And we ended up finishing the project on it. And just the way it looked was just really pretty the client fell in love with it. And they just, you know, they're like, you know what, this is still more than enough resolution and it doesn't matter because they look beautiful, and they just move forward with it. And, and it's like, Okay, cool. And you just keep moving forward with it. And in the end, it's just whatever look the previous you know, from an engineering standpoint, if you are a numbers guy, you have 65 revolutionarily, accurate, phenomenal engineered piece of equipment. From an aesthetic standpoint, it's okay.

Alex Ferrari 59:21
It's about pixels versus emotion a lot of time. Yeah,

Ernesto Lomeli 59:25
it's it's cool. But, you know, sometimes things don't have to look right to look pretty and sometimes pretty is more important. Yes, yeah. Yeah. Working marketing. I mean, we we're not in an engineering department. I mean, there's engineering involved, but our job is to make sure that pretty, you know, absolutely we're, we're artists.

Alex Ferrari 59:51
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now, back to the show. Now you shoot a lot with the Phantom Can you talk a little bit about that camera because it's a camera that I know a lot of people haven't had an opportunity to shoot with and I know you love that camera even to shoot it straight even to shoot straight with it right not even it well first of all tell people what the Phantom does and what it's famous for as far as I rate frame rates and all that so

Ernesto Lomeli 1:00:18
the latest version is the 4k flex it really is a revolutionary Phantom it's the first Phantom I mean for a long time and they still are very expensive and they're very technical and the files are massive they're basically like image sequences in their own skinny wrapper. But they're pretty much only shoots uncompressed files just because there's no there's no bandwidth or processor heavy enough that could I could you know re encode these files on the fly at you know at 1000 frames a second so it's basically just pulling real raw images frame by frame off the sensor and spitting into into a solid state but whatever it is they did in order for their for their sensor is just so pretty this next gen this latest generation of sensor that they use is that they developed it's just he just has a very beautiful pretty look that doesn't look like any other camera really you can make it look like any other camera but the look it has itself is just so unique you know and for longtime people because it's so expensive and it requires a technician with a massive rig to download these huge files you know it's cost prohibitive me being really geeky and I really like it you know I trained myself on the camera so that I can just use it on normal jobs and you know we designed a little download station on a laptop so that we don't need you know full blown rig and we can make it more cost effective to clients. But there's some jobs who I just really liked the way the skin tones it's just really pretty and thankfully at the end of last year last quarter they released a firmware update that lets the camera shoot straight to progress.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:18
Oh wow.

Ernesto Lomeli 1:02:19
At 42 Hq which is enough for a lot of projects Sure. For most projects I'll

Alex Ferrari 1:02:25
shuffle yeah I bashed her all my movies we mastered for 242 Hq and that's perfect at 4k at 2k whatever Yeah,

Ernesto Lomeli 1:02:34
yeah so it's it's a really beautiful camera and unfortunately it's you know, it's really really expensive. So the day right Right, right, right, but it's so pretty.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:47
Now could you can you we're gonna I'm gonna go back to lenses real quick. Can you talk to explain to people what bolcom is in the bokeh? Mobile lens.

Ernesto Lomeli 1:02:55
The focus, you know, it's funny because I didn't really hear the term bokeh until I was actually out of film school. Okay, we never really studied it. Well, bokeh, I think is a Japanese term that means something but it's been adapted its meaning has been I think adapted into something it's been taken out of context. So what is what is it that somebody has a word for that out of focus background playing when you're shooting in a really shallow depth of field

Alex Ferrari 1:03:29
that's basically what that is and then but I've heard so many times like the lens has this beautiful bolcom to it

Ernesto Lomeli 1:03:34
Yeah, I mean the truth is what they're saying is they really like the IRS design the out of focus elements, okay, okay. People don't realize this but the book is really has a lot to do with how many blades the IRS has and the shape that it actually makes so that's why sometimes you see out of focus lights in the background like headlights in a night scene, they'll be perfectly round although have a little hexagonal holes or if you're looking at really old film, like with the Zeiss and B Speed system like that they have little triangles. People love anamorphic because the layers or oval because of the sheer optical compression and, you know that's a bokeh but it all kind of really came about with the depth of field adapters and like the length the 35 millimeter lens adapters back in the day of mini DB and like the Red Rock micro Oh god, yes, the Red Rock then like all that stuff, because they wanted that filmic look and the way to shoot a filmic look for a long time was a shallow depth of field because the non filmic look was mini DV with a with a smaller sample size. That means more things were in focus. So everybody saw well if I want it to look like a big movie, I have to have shallow shallower depth of field shallower focus.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:02
I hated that Red Rocket, Red Rock of a sudden

Ernesto Lomeli 1:05:05
everybody, you know, everybody's, for whatever reason. It's kind of like putting spinners on a shitty car. Big rims on it, you know, pick the phone. And it's enough. And sometimes it's more than enough. You know, there's nothing wrong with a fake Gucci bag. You know, it sells look, nobody's gonna ask you to open it and look at the stitching in it, you know? Right.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:31
Right. Right. And they will.

Ernesto Lomeli 1:05:33
But it just that's where the that's where the whole bocce word was. That's kind of like the, the timeframe in our industry when that whole Cunningham came along, because they needed a way to describe that out of focus, shallow depth of field. feature in in these these 35 millimeter lens adapters, back in the day for mini DV kits.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:59
That's a very, very good explanation of what welcome was now I know a lot more than I did before. Thank you, sir. Now, this is a this is a selfish question, what do you look for in a director when you're working with

Ernesto Lomeli 1:06:11
them? Some of you that knows what they want somebody that that isn't just like a no person that, even if they don't act like somebody that knows what they want, even if they don't know how to get it, it doesn't really matter. That's my job, I'll figure out how to get it. I have a crew of really talented keys, that if I don't know how to get it, I'll ask them, because they've probably done it before. Or they're pretty smart guys, they'll help me figure out how to do it too. You know, that's part of the collaboration process. But if you get a director that goes, I want this to feel different, I want it to possible to rig a camera to hear so when they fall, they feel it gives us this vertigo effect. And you're just like, you know, I don't know, why do you want to do that. They're like, Oh, I want them to feel isolated from the background in the world. Like, I want to create this idea of separation visually in the story, because it goes with the story. And you're like, yeah, that sounds amazing. I don't know how to do that. But we can figure it out. But now I know why you want to do that. And right, like that is quite amazing.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:20
Got it. Now, do you have any advice on how how we're working cinema to like to be a working cinematographer in the business?

Ernesto Lomeli 1:07:29
Oh, geez, I'm still figuring out as I go.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:33
Anything you've picked up along the way as also advice for being a freelancer, which could kind of go hand in hand.

Ernesto Lomeli 1:07:40
Yeah, I mean, never burn a bridge, because you never know that pa might hire you for a job four years down the line. That's very true. Very true. And it has happened oh, it has. But that's just a rule of thumb in general in life. I mean, treat others as you would like to be treated. Be honest with your word. You know, always do your best. Because simple rules like no matter what the job is, if you agree to do the job, even if it's a quarter of your rate doesn't matter you agreed to do the job. Now other industries took this kind of way of thinking because it really pisses me off and other people don't but if I agreed to do a job whether it was for no money some money or all my all the money I usually charge, I'm gonna do the exact same quality of work.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:32
Yep, that's true because

Ernesto Lomeli 1:08:34
I committed to it and that's just it. And one of the secrets for me that I learned a long time ago is the moment I said yes, it's a job I never think of the money ever again. Because if you try to quantify like, how much you're making per hour and this gear and this and that forget my god, you're gonna you're just gonna, you're gonna you're going to start to devalue yourself. And it's just like, you know what? Cool and you just always do your best and that's it. Just always do your best if you could, if you know you could do something better do it the better way that's it.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:11
Yeah, regardless of what you're being paid, because it always I was when I interviewed Robert Forster he said something was so profound but so true, which is similar is do the best work you can no matter what you're doing, because nothing bad comes from doing the best work you can do. Yeah, because you never know someone might be watching. Someone might be looking so when I see

Ernesto Lomeli 1:09:35
I mean even just in life in general, it's just like, do your best you want so much out of life and it's like, Don't expect great things to happen when you don't put on percent into it. Amen, brother, if you always do your best and you're never gonna feel guilty for not trying hard, it easy.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:52
Aim, preach, answer preach on. So uh, so these last few questions I have for you, I ask of all of my guests. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life? perspective? Interesting.

Ernesto Lomeli 1:10:10
Always learning to project always trying to figure out the positive things and everything you do. That's when you learn this a lot, especially in music videos.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:26
Yeah, yeah.

Ernesto Lomeli 1:10:30
This director is an idiot. Oh.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:38
The artist is drunk.

Ernesto Lomeli 1:10:41
Three more scenes to shoot. I don't promise my wife I was gonna be home for dinner and I totally not gonna make it right. Just like why am I here? Yeah, and then all of a sudden,

Alex Ferrari 1:10:54
I think we both I think we both worked with that director. Who will remain nameless

Ernesto Lomeli 1:11:02
put down this horrible rabbit Yeah, you know what? I'm here I committed I gotta do it. Let's just get it done. Let's have fun All right, you want the weird ducks angle shot of the girls but with the flare, no problem I will give you the best doctor angle but flare whatever, but shot freaking rad and all of a sudden the day is done and you're just like, oh, that wasn't so bad. No, it's it's that's that's one of the most in perspective I ever learned his perspective. His perspective is just like it's the most powerful thing that you can ever learn is projecting you know finding the good things you know, there's there's no such thing as one single truth. You know, there's it doesn't exist it's all about you the angle you're looking at it from you like

Alex Ferrari 1:11:55
you like a jet. For cinematographers. It's fascinating. But

Ernesto Lomeli 1:12:01
you know, there's always something positive and try to look at that way or else you're going to be a very miserable person.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:07
Now, you we were talking about music videos, I wanted to ask you a quick question. Do you change your perspective on how you approach a music video as opposed to how you approach a commercial

Ernesto Lomeli 1:12:17
you know, what? I learned a long time ago working with under some of these big guys, they, for them, the movies they were working on was like the real job. The commercial for them was like their, their time to just cash in fun, experiment play around they didn't really care because even if they I mean, they would still try hard, of course, but they there was no pressure. No, when you when you weren't on vacation, right? And I think a lot of times you music videos are kind of the same way for a lot of us is that. It's like, well, cool. Like, there's no agency, there's no client. I mean, there's a label, but I mean, the budgets unless you're working on a very on a decently sized music video. You know, that's one of the music videos I do are kind of, there'll be a few big ones, but then, you know, I'll do music videos most of the time for friends because it's like a favor. Yep, friends are in a band director that kind of, you know, their their best friend is in a band and they want to do a music video because they haven't done one in five years. And they just kind of want to do something arty with no stress. Right? Right. Right. And that's kind of what we do now. And it's just like, Yeah, let's go have fun. Like Yeah, cares. Like, we'll make it in the end. We're going to I'm going to make sure the girl looks really pretty regardless, the band looks awesome and hot and whatever and I'm gonna make sure you we give amazing we get at least one amazing performance pass. And then the rest of the time we're gonna have fun, but but

Alex Ferrari 1:13:46
don't forget the bud Fleur.

Ernesto Lomeli 1:13:49
It's rare. You'd be surprised.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:55
Alright, right. So what are your top three favorite films of all time?

Ernesto Lomeli 1:13:59
top three favorite films of all time,

Alex Ferrari 1:14:01
and that could be a wow, you choose Sir, your dealer's choice.

Ernesto Lomeli 1:14:10
Visually

Alex Ferrari 1:14:13
there's just so many just pick three that come to your mind that you really like.

Ernesto Lomeli 1:14:18
The Devil's backbone. Yeah, great film.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:21
Oh, yeah, it's it's beautifully shot. Oh, my direction. Oh,

Ernesto Lomeli 1:14:25
are we gorgeous? in our direction? That's what it's wardrobe just like

Alex Ferrari 1:14:31
Yeah, it's pretty top notch. No question about it. Just amazing.

Ernesto Lomeli 1:14:35
Um, and, and I'm a really big fan of magical realism and for some reason, it doesn't really exist very much in our genre anymore. I mean, it is this dude with like Chris Cunningham music videos.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:50
Oh, yeah. No, I love Chris stuff. Chris Michelle Gondry

Ernesto Lomeli 1:14:52
music videos. As far as movie goes, Pan's Labyrinth was kind of like that. Yeah, yeah, very true. I mean, pants Labyrinth is one of the is is is an amazing film. That was backbone kind of you know, it's the beginning of that trilogy. But for some odd reason a movie I've always really liked was the adventures of Baron Munchausen. Oh

Alex Ferrari 1:15:15
I love a very I love that movie. Yeah, Robin Williams things in it. Yeah,

Ernesto Lomeli 1:15:19
in and out of all of these different worlds and perspectives and it was all in the same scenario and for some reason I really gravitated towards it. I don't know why. But visually, a movie that has like haunted me forever. was done by chivo also was Lemony Snicket. Oh,

Alex Ferrari 1:15:40
that is gorgeous movie. Oh,

Ernesto Lomeli 1:15:42
I learned to light I learned to light a room and then that people interact with the room. Yeah, instead of lighting for the marks for the talent. Like, those sets are just gorgeous. And she was, you know, lit it all with these 15k saw sons 100k saw sons coming through the window, and just letting the light just play.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:07
And she was good

Ernesto Lomeli 1:16:08
while you're talking about no chivo lubezki

Alex Ferrari 1:16:11
Oh, okay, okay, David Laski. Gotcha, gotcha. Now, what is the most underrated film you've ever seen? underrated Yes. Oh, that's it. That's one of those films that no one else knows about you like why don't people love this?

Ernesto Lomeli 1:16:33
Great question. Um, there was actually a movie I saw recently. Is cafe the floor. Never heard of it. This is underrated. It's French Canadian.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:48
Okay.

Ernesto Lomeli 1:16:52
The director has gone on to do much, much more amazing big Hollywood movies. But that film was just so beautiful as this whole thing about soulmates and moving back and forth and different lives. There's kind of like Atlas cloud, or cloud out, let's

Alex Ferrari 1:17:11
call that, let's call it. That was great. I love that I actually love cloud.

Ernesto Lomeli 1:17:15
I thought that movie was fantastic.

Alex Ferrari 1:17:17
I love that I got a really bad rap. I loved it. I don't care what anyone says. I

Ernesto Lomeli 1:17:22
know I feel like Like, there's not that many movies that have to do with with these elements in life about this, like just this natural beacon like search that human beings have for one and one another. And I feel you know, we pass the buck on to these ROM coms. The truth is that, you know, all my favorite novellas and amazing novels that I've read there, you know, and it's always, you know, somebody in search of something on an amazing journey. And I feel like those films, there's not that many of them represented in film because they're very hard to, to balance between a story and all this inner dialogue that people really have.

Alex Ferrari 1:18:07
Yeah, it's absolutely right. You're absolutely right. So and So where can people find you?

Ernesto Lomeli 1:18:14
My website, Ernestolomeli.com. You'll see a bunch of commercials. I feel like I mean, I've been very lucky I work a lot, but I do the most random jobs and it's amazing. Everything from full video installation walls to VR projects to the super techie, highly visual effects commercials to you know,

Alex Ferrari 1:18:42
Music videos

Ernesto Lomeli 1:18:44
Cute little simple short films. No it's it's all it's all there

Alex Ferrari 1:18:49
And when you when you're shooting your next when you're going to shoot that feature man.

Ernesto Lomeli 1:18:53
I don't know when it when it comes to something soon that would be cool.

Alex Ferrari 1:18:57
When something comes along the way that tickles your fancy.

Ernesto Lomeli 1:19:01
I mean, as much as I would love that because everybody in the commercial land wants to do features and everybody in Patreon Of course says the grass is always greener on the other side of course i don't know i have a face something cool.

Alex Ferrari 1:19:14
All right, man. Dude, thank you so much for for sharing your knowledge and your wisdom and your experience with the the tribe here man, I really appreciate it.

Ernesto Lomeli 1:19:23
Yeah, of course anytime.

Alex Ferrari 1:19:26
Man I really love working with Ernesto. It's you know, the the projects that we've worked together on he has been an absolute pleasure. He keeps his head so mellow and so straight on the set that it can be hectic at times, if not at all times. But he's always been very, very cool. And I again, I wanted to bring a bunch of that information knowledge that I kind of pick his brain more on set, always asking them questions about the gear he's bringing out and why he's bringing it out and things like that. And I just really wanted to have him on the show. So I hope you guys got some value out of that because I I learned some stuff just listening to this interview. as well so remember guys that gear is not everything is just a paintbrush. It's all it is. It's nice, it's nice to have a really nice paintbrush. At the end of the day. It's always about story. Don't ever forget story story story. No one ever won an Oscar or won Sundance, because they shot on the nicest, coolest camera and use the best lenses. They won because there was a good story there. And if you want links to everything we talked about in this episode, head over to indiefilmhustle.com/073 to download the show notes. Now as always, head over to filmmakingpodcast.com that's filmmaking podcast calm and leave us an honest review of the show. It really helps us out a lot. Now we've also just relaunched our YouTube page, I plan to be uploading videos every week there. We're going to be doing segments, free segments of our courses, different different kinds of film, school courses, classes, tips, things like that, as well as all of our podcasts will be available on YouTube as well. It's free to subscribe, so just head over to indiefilmhustle.com/YouTube. And if you want to be part of the indie film hustle tribe, don't forget to go and sign up for our free Facebook group where you can connect with other filmmakers from around the world. Ask questions have direct contact with me, and get first dibs at all of our new great content that we're creating at indie film hustle. So just head over to indiefilmhustle.com/Facebook and sign up. I hope to see you there. So as always keep that hustle going keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 072: How Marketable is Your Film Idea or Screenplay?

So how marketable is your film idea or screenplay? I know so many screenwriters and filmmakers who spend months and sometimes years on an idea that is cool to just themselves.

Depending on what you are attempting to achieve with your story, you should always figure out if your idea is marketable or if you have a fighting chance of selling the screenplay or final film.

Paul Castro, the writer of the Warner Brothers feature film August Rush (Starring Robin Williams) shares with us his thoughts on how to test and find marketable ideas. You can download the MP3 or watch the video below.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:00
So today I wanted to talk about the marketability of your idea or your screenplay specifically or your screenplay. You know a lot of people always go off and you know spend six months a year even longer either writing a screenplay making a movie and they don't even understand if this is even marketable if it's something that the marketplace wants or is positioned in a place that you can sell it you know, I've seen so many filmmakers go off and make a movie and spend six months a year two years of their lives putting stuff together and they have no idea if the the idea of the movies even marketable and it's a waste man and I hate again all depends on what you're trying to do if you're trying to just put out art or trying to do experiments and keep the budgets low and you could do whatever you want and that's fine Go for it. But if you're spending you know as a substantial amount of money and it takes you a year or two of your life and you haven't even tested to see if this is even a marketable idea my god it's just such a waste so please always test your ideas go off and do a little do a little research and see if the marketplace is interested in your kind of movie. And if the if it is interested in your idea, do you need stars attached things like that, to make it a marketable thing now, where you start with this whole idea is with the screenplay with the idea is this a marketable idea or marketable screenplay? So if you're only a screenwriter, listen up, because this is going to be very, very valuable information. And also, filmmakers who are screenwriters slash directors slash producers definitely perk your ears up, because you're going to get some knowledge bombs thrown at you right now. So Paul Castro, the writer of August, Russian, I have put together a course called the million dollar business of screenwriting. Now I'm going to give you a one of the lessons that he teaches in this course called is your screenplay marketable? What is the marketability of your screenplay. So I wanted to give you a kind of a sneak peek of the course in this podcast and listen to one of these amazing lectures that Paul does in this in this course. Now, this is not just for screenwriters, this is also for directors, producers, filmmakers, who have ideas that they might want to get fleshed out, or a movie that they're about to start, definitely listen to what Paul says, because it might save you years of your life, let alone 1000s and 1000s, or even, maybe even millions of dollars, depending on the level you're at. And at the end of the episode, I'll give you a special link to get the course at a substantial discount. So sit back and get ready to get your minds blown.

Paul Castro 4:00
I wanted to talk to you about the marketability of your idea. So writers we all have a peppering of all sorts of ideas, bombarding our psyche and our soul often, and most of the time every day, at least for me, and many of my friends. So how do you choose an idea? Well, I think it's important to take your top three ideas, and be really honest with yourself, is it marketable? Because there are ideas out there that are real, something that's interesting to me may not be interesting to the world. So I wrote a script about a Fugu chef one time the Japanese puffer blowfish, which is the poisonous fish and I love this story, and it got some traction but nobody ever bought it. And the writing experience was a value for sure. But I could have spent those eight weeks to 12 weeks to eventually six months, working on something that was much more marketable. So what makes a marketable screenplay that's going to put you in the best possible position to sell it. So These days, it is a true story. For some reason Hollywood and actors, movie stars like to play something that actually happened. So how do you acquire that? Well, you acquire it from source material, what is source material from a magazine, a book, an article, something you've seen in the news. Now, you may be saying, hey, Paul, that's great. But I'm a new screenwriter, how am I going to acquire that? Well, from my experience, I have seen that book authors are a lot more accessible and open than say, trying to get to a movie star. So if you approached a book author knows I said, he or she not the agent, because agents are wonderful, but they're the gatekeepers. They're trying to protect that person. And they're trying to get them paid, understandably so. But if you approach a book author, and show your passion for the material, have a plan for how you're going to adapt it from book to the big screen. And oh, by the way, you're going to do this for free, as long as that he or she gives you a free option. And if the material once you're done with it is had a level of vibrancy and at a high frequency of quality, that that person says yes, this is what this is my book on screen, in a screenplay form that can eventually make to the big screen. Yeah, I would love to see you did a great job. If they agree to that, then you go forward as a team to sell the entire project. And it costs you time and sweat equity, that can be done. And most writers are a bit trepidatious and shy and circumspect in going that route. Because they feel like well, what value do I have to add? Well, I'm here to tell you, you have a lot, you're a creative, right? That's invaluable. And if you're going to be brave enough to approach this person, and coming from a good place, you're not trying to rip anyone off, you're trying to add value with your talent and creativity, you can acquire some wonderful stories, right? So the market is very friendly towards a true story. Something that's current, is it a strike these days, you hear a lot of stories about autism, which is a very important subject. All right, if there's something that is relevant to the science world, as far as a curable disease, something that has an energy beyond just a true story. All right, an Olympic hopeful, who blah, blah, blah, fill in the blank. Maybe there's something in your hometown, some somebody that nobody even knew about this person. And you could bring that story to fruition through a screenplay where there's a will there's a relative, and there's also a way. So I would encourage you to start looking for true stories, something from source material, if there's a book that you saw when you were you read when you were a little kid, and you Why isn't this ever been a movie, then that's a voice a little God wink that's telling you to pursue it. So your job now is to spend the next I'm sorry, not one hour, two hours, going to Google going to your role, the text going to your hometown, going through all your resources to identify a true story that you can bring to fruition through the craft of screenwriting. So you have two hours, make sure you hit the restroom, get some water, get some amens whatever you do, and get prepared because two hours and you're going to on Vale the gym that you were meant to write through a true story from source material. Okay, in 321 right.

Alex Ferrari 8:57
I'll tell you what, I learned a ton from Paul walls working with him on this course. I mean, he goes over things like how to workshop your screenplay, which I had never heard of this whole technique of how he actually workshops a screenplay so he can get feedback and make it better it's it's pretty, pretty awesome. How to submit to an agent how to get your screenplay to an agent, pitching how to read a room, not read a person but actually read a room, which is amazing how to write different kinds of screenplays from 30 minutes, sitcoms to one hour dramas, residuals, a W GA, writing assignments and so on. I mean, it's it's a pretty dense course on the business of screenwriting and how to actually make a living being a screenwriter. But again, a lot of the concepts and things that Paul talks about for screenwriters can easily be translated to filmmakers. So definitely a course to take a listen to and as promise I am going to give you a discount code so all you have to do is go to indie Film hustle.com forward slash screenwriting 25 that's indie film, hustle comm forward slash screenwriting 25. And you'll get the course for 25 bucks. I mean, that is a absolute steal, not not even playing around guys, it's so dense. And there's some more preview. When you go to that link, you'll see a few more lessons, you can kind of preview and take a listen to. Well, well worth it, guys. So I hope you got a lot out of this episode. And like I said before, on other episodes, I'm really trying to bring the highest quality film courses and knowledge to you guys through our podcast, through our blog, and through these online courses that we're creating for you. And by buying these online courses. You're supporting the show, you're supporting indie film, hustle, and what we're trying to do, and spread all of this valuable knowledge to you guys and to indie filmmakers who really need it because like I said, the reason I started this whole thing is I was just tired of seeing so many filmmakers just not making it and getting eaten up and chewed up by the film industry. And I wanted to give out as much free information as I could, but also create really top and next level courses that will take that knowledge to another place. So by by buying this, buying these courses from us, you really help us support what I'm trying to do at indie film hustle. So I thank you from the bottom of my heart guys. And also there is a 30 day money back guarantee if you don't like it, so if you just want to listen to it, give it a shot, but it's definitely worth it. Alright guys. So as always, please head over to filmmaking podcast calm and leave us an honest review of the show. It really helps us out a lot. And don't forget to go and sign up for our free Facebook group so you can talk to all the other tribe members and be part of the indie film hustle community, share your information, share your knowledge, share your what you're shooting, what you're making, all that kind of stuff and ask questions. That's why I created it. So it is a vibrant, wonderful community that we're building slowly but surely we're getting close to 5000 members already at the Facebook group so please head over to indie film, hustle, calm Ford slash Facebook and sign up it is free. So as always guys, keep the hustle going. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

YOUTUBE VIDEO

IFH 071: Save the Cat – Screenwriting Story Structure Made Easy

Why would you want to ‘Save the Cat’? If you are a screenwriter or aspiring one you should have heard by now of Blake Snyder’s game-changing screenwriting book.

In his 20-year career as a film producer and screenwriter, Blake Snyder sold dozens of scripts, including co-writing Blank Check, which became a hit for Disney, and Nuclear Family for Steven Spielberg — both million-dollar sales. Named “one of Hollywood’s most successful spec screenwriters,” Blake sold his last screenplay in 2009.

His book, Save the Cat!® The Last Book on Screenwriting You’ll Ever Need, was published in May 2005 and is now in its 24th printing. When I read this book it really had an impact on my storytelling and screenwriting.

Thankful Blake was not done and apparently it was not quite the last book on screenwriting you’ll ever need, as the eagerly awaited sequel, Save the Cat!® Goes to the Movies: The Screenwriter’s Guide to Every Story Ever Told, was published in October 2007 — shooting to #1 in the Screenwriting and Screenplay categories on Amazon.com. Blake’s third book, Save the Cat!® Strikes Back: More Trouble for Screenwriters to Get Into… And Out Of was published in November 2009.

Blake’s method has become the “secret weapon” of many development executives, managers, and producers for its precise, easy, and honest appraisal of what it takes to write and develop stories that resonate. Save the Cat!® The Last Story Structure Software You’ll Ever Need has codified this method. Blake passed unexpectedly in 2009 but the Save the Cat community carries on Blake’s work.

I had the pleasure of interviewing one of Blake’s main pupils Jose Silerio. Jose is carrying the torch of Blake’s work and travels around the world well…saving the cat.

Enjoy my informative interview with Jose Silerio.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:15
Jose man, thank you so much for joining us on the indie film hustle podcast. I really appreciate you taking the time, man.

Jose Silerio 3:17
Hey, thank you very much for having us. Alex, it's I mean, we're happy from Sema from save the cat to be part of this and you know, just to help out screenwriters as much as possible.

Yeah. I'm a huge, huge fan of Blake Snyder's work and save the cat. I read all three books. And they're, they're amazing. And they've kind of changed the business a lot ever since they were released. So can you tell me a little bit about Blake and save the cat? For people who don't know?

Alex Ferrari 3:44
Yeah, definitely. You know, as you said in the save the cat three sort of became big in the industry. And that's not you know, it's not just simply us tooting our own horn. But it's really from our own experience. Even when Blake was still around. We saw how his his method, his books really became popular. And Blake, really, you know, he's a screenwriter yet, just like most of us, right? He started screenwriting way back in the 80s. He was even he started working for his dad in his in his dad's animation series, doing the voices for the kid in the in the show and all that and he got into screenwriting way back in the 80s. And he's he's sold, you know, several scripts throughout his career. I'm telling you, I think 12 or 13, all together in in in a couple of their made which is blank check and stop or your mom or mom does shoot which are kind of the more famous ones he did. That came up. But I think from Blake really what he did with save the cat and how it kind of how we didn't vote for him was that, you know, just like everybody else in the industry, especially for writers, there are those ups and down moments. And as a writer, you're always you know, struggling to sort of break Even though and I said that even though you're in already you kind of have to keep proving yourself over and over it's

Jose Silerio 5:07
What have you done it's like Janet Jackson says What have you done for me lately?

And I think that kind of came from him knowing that that struggle who went through you wanted to make sure that other writers following him sort of had it a little bit easier if I can put it that way. And He found you know, he had his own method of developing structure and which you see it's funny because he had this little story and I can't actually remember if it's it was in the book where in his introduction to structure was that he you know, this was like, early late 90s or late 80s system where he was he went into one of these development meetings, he submitted a script you know, the producer was there and they decided talking about the script and the producer goes to him so what's your you know, break after break? And he was just Oh, um, you know, he says kind of just sort of nodding his head and kind of just talking what the story more than after the meeting ended in a way when all other producers moved out and all that the one producer who's really only with him pulled him aside and said you don't know what the actual break is right? Yeah, I have no idea what to do. Right sort of became his introduction into creating structure and him realizing that you know, in order to tell a good story, regardless of the story, we need structure and again so he's developed his own system which eventually began to save the cat method and again because it's from his own experience of wanting to help other writers later down the road you know he just simply wanted to share it because it started working for him and in and like you said, you know once he published the road save the cat The first book was published and people really gravitated toward it and it just exploded

Now we're good you know what were save the cat came from the name

But the name save the cat itself is a term that he uses you know and it's it's it's a simple way for your audience to like your your main hero You know perfectly it's the same the cats literally comes from the term you know, saving a cat you know what it is it's it's you just put you give your your your hero and action to do early on in the industry in the movie in the script, you know, that makes us say Oh, that's a nice guy. You know, I like this person, you know, which will make me want to follow this person's journey for the rest of the movie

Alex Ferrari 7:25
Which would be the opposite of that would be kick the dog which would be my book, kick the dog how to be evil person.

It's a great way to introduce a villain

Right! You kill anybody who kicks a dog like that guy's bad so it's a perfect example Yeah, so that's where it comes from. Okay, great. So how did you get involved with save the cat?

You know it's funny I got involved with save the cat exactly the same way like everybody discovers save the cat which is I read the book. I didn't know Blake you know before the book came out but when I read the book, you know and I tell this to all you know people or writers I work with I'm a very lazy reader I'm sorry to say the book you know even was thick a save the cat man it's not really that thick. That's not it's not it's not a hard read. Yeah, it will usually a book that thick won't even take me something like a year to read.

Jose Silerio 8:15
You're really lazy, you're really lazy writer reader.

Save the cat, a Kenyatta Indeed, I sat down open page one couldn't put it down it just like he said it was a very easily but more than being an easily. I think it just it says, you know, you get it, right. The way you get the bag is talking about it, what the thing, the nice thing about it really, so sort of, for me, this is my reaction. It was very encouraging. It is really telling me that, you know, this is something that I can do and a lot of the things that I found myself like, Oh, no, as a screenwriter, like, I'm getting stuck here, you know, he was kind of explaining it and telling me you know, this is all you have to do. And that's how I got into save the cat, you know, read the book, you know, he had this email address there, which everybody knows have read the book. I wrote him, can you just ask him about other stuff and all that and then one day, he can tell immediately, not one day, but immediately he's going to ask me saying, hey, I need to help you with a script that we need to read. And if you can give me notes, you know, maybe we can build something together. And luckily,

you were at the right place at the right time. Exactly.

You know, the stars aligned for me kinda you know, so that's how I got into say the gap and it was like, way back in 2006 2007.

Alex Ferrari 9:24
Can't believe that's way back. Yeah.

Jose Silerio 9:28
10 years now.

Wow. So So can you explain to everybody what a beat sheet is? Because I remember the first time I was in an executive meeting, and someone goes so where's your beat sheet and I'm like, so you see the character does this. This is very similar to what Blake did. I'm like I just tried to keep going with it. But then afterwards, I found out what a beat sheet was. So can you explain to everybody what a beat sheet

is? Well, a BGA especially you know, we'd save the cat and a lot of, you know, a lot of other I guess, teachers producers, so every everybody has their own kind of definition for the beat sheets. Okay, so I'm gonna go with the save the cat definition, it's really as Blackboard you know, the beat sheet really has an end for us we have what we call the 15 beats, the 15 key beats and this what it does is the 15 beats of the beat sheet the same that the Blake Snyder beat sheet it just really pinpoints the 15 key beats that your hero must go through in order to tell a good story. These are moments that must be happening to your hero, right and your hero must be doing as well in order for us to be able to follow that structure that story in a way that's very familiar for for for for the audience. And again when I say familiar I'm not saying you know, you're just merely copying from other movies, other scripts or other books that you've read before. But you know, story structure is something that's been ingrained in all of us ever since you know from Nursery Rhymes like jokes there's always a structure and and that beats you know, those 15 beats is something that Blake sort of not only develop, but he even says this isn't all discovered but even not discovered but he just kind of made it clear for everybody gotcha gotcha. And he said and he having studied all these films that he felt like you know what really successful film really like he said you know, I this he discovered there were just 15 beats that were always present. And that's what you know, I guess a beat sheet is you know, you have this this 15 beats that go from in save the cat, terminologies go from opening image, all the way down to 15. The final image that, like I said earlier that we that your hero must go through So in short, I guess it's really like an outline, or, but really, it's a good way to really help you as a writer, figure out what's happening, and more importantly, when it should be happening to your hero,

right? It's kind of well, what I've taken from structure is because when I write I my structures pretty sound because I like structure I like having that those tent poles to be able to like write to so it's like okay, from here to this point to this point. This has to happen so how I get to point A to point B is up to me as the writer but I have a place to go without that structure you're just kind of like meandering all over the place.

Alex Ferrari 12:24
Exactly. I think it's what you said you know, the nice permit to use was temple which is exactly what Blake also mentioned that I think a lot of times and I say this all the time like when I went to film school way back when you know the writing screenwriting classes one to one The thing that really always got was okay there's act one act two and yeah right and they're like oh, that's very vague. You fill it in and that's what you know the the save the cat beat sheet of Blake the assessor at least in Act One you know what should be happening act one because right away you know which beats must be happening within the PAP and where again it's happening then same thing when you go to act two and act three

Jose Silerio 13:03
Yeah, it's it's pretty amazing there's a series on YouTube that has a they take the save the cat method and they beat it out with movies. It's wonderful to watch because you're like Back to the Future Ed, you know Terminator Titanic and you just start watching them and they literally are beating it out. So they're like here's this Pete This is when this happens in the movie this is when his happens in the movie and you just sit there and you use examples of it Can you give us a few examples of films that use save the cat very very well? hours the hours of the minute but just a couple of the big ones

Alex Ferrari 13:36
Yeah, even that big one guy like you know some of the Oscar winners like King's speech. Argo mean very clear and strong beats an Oscar nominated one which I really liked from two years ago was whiplash briefing again all the beats were there but the nice thing about you know this movies where you can see is that you know you can go there and I'm probably biased already by this night at this point right and done this for 10 years but right now I'm watching there and But still, right I try to avoid saying oh, there's the catalyst. Oh, there's the midpoint. Oh, it's

Jose Silerio 14:10
rough you know it's in Look, I'll tell you I've been in visual effects and post production for a long time. And you know, it's tough for me to go to a movie sometimes it's tough for me to kind of just let go and I just recently let go when I saw Star Wars so I completely was not looking at anything technical. I was just on the ride and it's for film to do that to you know, people like us that are really into it. It's at me that's a really good sign of the filmmaker who's been able to cut through all of our all of our armor, if you will, of biases like oh, that green screen didn't really look that great. Oh, oh, that story point. That's the catalyst. Oh, that's the turning point. And I catch myself doing that all the time now with with lesser movies, but like you

said, you know, the well made ones really are those where you forget what's there, but you don't see it.

Exactly oh you look back you go back to it later and watch it a second time and then you'll analyze it maybe in the second or third screening of it but the first time you just enjoy it and you know it's coming but you just kind of you're in the story as you should be.

exactly exactly and you know those are you know that they did their job well you know and like I said you know when we go back then we start realizing oh that's why you know we like this part because yes it was building up to the midpoint it's going down to the last and and all that

now did you have you seen new Star Wars? I have and how how's it how's it How's it hanging in this in the saving the cat paradise

Alex Ferrari 15:36
thanks very well in terms of the beat sheet itself of having the beats there in the way they introduce the characters of the setup you know, the setup,

no spoilers, no spoilers.

Yeah. Very careful. You know, even you know, the big moment the big all is lost moment. I think, you know, even though I'm not gonna say it out loud. I think I know you would definitely you know what I'm talking horse? Of course, of course. Right. So, you know, even though we don't specifics, we know that that beat was there. Till your third act, right, you know, what, the third app? Yes. And it did the beats are still there. So yeah, I think I would love to say that, you know, yeah, of course, JJ Abrams, and never wrote read save the cat before. Yeah, of course, I think. But, you know, I think great filmmakers, great writers, they just know, you know,

well, the thing is, if you look at all the big movies, the most successful movies, whether they be blockbusters or Oscar winners, generally they all follow the beat, they all follow the the structure, whether whether and I think what Blake did so well with save the cat is that screenwriting is a complex scenario, it's not an easy way to write, it's much easier to write in many ways a modern novel because you can Miranda and you can kind of just delve into the deepness of how the the tree looks today and you can't do that in the screenplay has to be very condensed has to be very concise every word is has to have a meaning and move the story forward. And I think what Blake did so brilliantly is that he brought it down to the masses where a lot of that kind of terminology was more upper tier if you will like at the you know at a at a film school or at the higher end like UCLA, you know, screenwriting programmer, these kind of really epic big huge institutions that were kind of like guarding the information and Blake kind of took that information and said now you all may have it and now here here now go and rights be well

Jose Silerio 17:36
I agree with you on that yeah there's definitely you know if you kind of go the the Joseph Campbell route of course which is very again there's nothing wrong but it's a great system as well but like you said, you know, when when Blake would save the cat he kind of brought it down to the masses those who weren't kind of more into mythological stuff but just wanted to set up this goes straight into well

Alex Ferrari 17:55
I mean the right idea what the writers journey was or what the hero's journey is it works well obviously with save the cat it's it's it's there but it's it's different it's a little bit not as simple like save the cat is as simple as you can get like if you're a screenwriter starting out, read save the cat then go off and read everything else but save the cat is a great base to start from because and that's again one of the reasons I wanted you guys on the show because the book was so influential, and then you can go off and read a million 1000 books. There's a nice

Jose Silerio 18:31
thing about that though, is that you know, Blake really started in roadsafe The gap is for writers really more than anybody for writers to help them move forward with their own writing and they feel like they're stuck and kind of go but it's also a great way to analyze movies oh god yes and figure out you know why they're working

Alex Ferrari 18:49
that's why he wrote that second book right the the exact the cat goes to the movies right? Exactly. Which was great. It was a wonderful example to kind of go in he's just started breaking down the movies. And you just like oh my god, I remember the first time I discussed with the first book I ever read was Sid fields. That was when I wasn't now I'm going way back this is like the 90s so and when I discovered that there was a structure because he was the first one I ever heard any kind of structure. Yeah, and I was like wait a minute, at 15 minutes this happens and I can't stand that I just started going back to all my movies. I'm like, oh my god this and I thought I'd cracked the code. It's like it was like it was so revolutionary to me. For someone who doesn't understand it doesn't know about it. It's so great. But again, let's say the cat does so well is it simplifies it so beautifully. And it's I don't want to say it's like right by numbers because there's a lot of creativity involved. But it gives you those 10 poles that you can just make it's a lot easier. You don't have to think about structure. You can you could just decorate the house, you'd have to worry about the foundation.

Jose Silerio 19:50
Exactly. I think that's the best way to put it. Because there is always an eight always stuff about it. But the serious you know there are always those the detractors who come to say disappointed by them. First thing and I think it when people say that they're not getting the whole picture because we're just talking about structure, you know, your your character traits,

Alex Ferrari 20:10
they're not a log everything exactly, it's

Jose Silerio 20:13
on the writer right and that's for you to make your characters unique and once you add that then it becomes a totally different story but you have the structure there already.

Alex Ferrari 20:22
Yeah, absolutely. It's like I said before, it's like literally you could you could have a house with a complete foundation and structure done. Now how that's decorated, it could be be accurate in a million different ways. It's all depending on how the writer wants to, to go forward. So a lot of screenwriters to always hear about coverage like oh, well can I get coverage and I got bad coverage, I got good coverage and your script needs coverage from a studio or production company. Can you explain a little bit about coverage to those who don't know in the audience? Well, I

Jose Silerio 20:51
think like you said, you know, coverage really is more of like, you know, you have the reader obviously, you have the higher ups who can't read all the scripts that go through their studios, so they need the cliff notes version scripts that come in, and I think that's that, to me, that's kind of what coverages you have the readers who who read it, and they put their notes down on the script that they read, kind of go into structure characters dialogue, you know, giving it it's sort of last and you know, different students have different styles, different methods, but it can be they have kind of a point system and they point they graded graded accordingly. And that's you know, I think that's the simple way of just describing what coverage is that now that piece of paper and hopefully, for most it's a one pager right? That goes not to the next Junior executive

Alex Ferrari 21:43
if it passes if it passes because they might they might have

Jose Silerio 21:46
exactly right it passes and goes to them they read the script and they they do their own version of the next higher up coverage it goes to the next higher up guy so that's you know, I think that's a simple like I said a simple version of explaining with Cobra GS it's really a cover letter you know for for for the script. Can you just telling us what the script is we're telling the the executive what what this group is all about and what what in what and how it meets certain criteria for them

Alex Ferrari 22:12
Now the thing is that as a as a screenwriter and I've gone through the coverage processes in the studio system it's very frustrating because sometimes you might not get the reader that you that's really gets it and a lot of people have passed on Oscar winners, you know in coverage and it happens and that's very frustrating a lot of times because you're like oh my god i like i forgot there's some legendary ones. I just don't remember any of them off the top of my head but that guy passes at certain studios will Star Wars was passed everywhere. I mean, just the original Star Wars was like what Yeah, you know,

Jose Silerio 22:46
that's very true. Yeah. Bigger producers going to like I don't think you know, they don't didn't get it.

Alex Ferrari 22:52
They don't they don't get it. So in the script was like, Oh, what's this? What's this? This giant monkey? Who's walking around with this guy? And he's his sister. What? No, forget there's incest involved. This is horrible. So yeah. So it has to do like

Jose Silerio 23:08
you said, you know, if there is it's sort involved in it, that your script gets to the right person at the right time. Yeah. So that they, you know, they that to ever the reader is that they're reading it in the right frame of mind in order to get it and be in, hopefully be objective enough. While while reading it.

Alex Ferrari 23:30
I think also one thing that I've learned in my my journeys and from talking to so many different screenwriters is and recover and producers and executives is that at a certain point, you have to even if they might pass on it, you have to write something so good, that even though you know i don't get it, but man, this is really well written. And there's a lot of that, like, this is not going to be made into movie, but you're a good writer. And I think that's what writers should do as best they can try to make the best thing as Steve Martin says, be so good that they can't ignore you.

Jose Silerio 24:03
Yeah, and I completely agree with that. And and, you know, this is what I always tell writers, especially those who say, okay, what's the secret to sort of breaking in? And I think the release isn't the secret. The secret is you come up with a really great script.

Alex Ferrari 24:17
script, oddly enough.

Jose Silerio 24:19
Yeah. And because it's then I truly believe this because I've heard it from a lot of executives from producers themselves. And they say, you know, the industry really is, you know, they're one thing for the great, the next great script, right? So the moment you have a great script that goes out, you know, it's going to, it's going to catch fire. It's going to spread on its own. It's because of you know what, once somebody says, there's a great script out there, everybody starts looking for it. And I think that's really sort of the secret to this breaking in but you have to do again, your homework, you have to show them like you were saying earlier, right? But as a writer, you have to show this people the readers or producers, that they know how to write the story. Know what it takes to be able to be to be a good storyteller?

Alex Ferrari 25:03
Yeah, I know a lot of writers who put in a script and they said, this is not going to work for us. But I want to hire you for another job because you can write. Yeah, and that happens all the time. And I know a lot of screenwriters who make a living, never being produced. Yeah, they just keep optioning or they're working or their script doctoring. And they've never had a single credit to their name. Yeah, but they've made millions doing this and behind the scenes, there's many guys who do this in Hollywood

Jose Silerio 25:32
and there's even a lot of those who not just option out you know, their scripts even though the script the single made what they get hired to rewrite again, you know, other scripts, again without being credited for it. You know, that's, that's a great job to have

Alex Ferrari 25:48
it to certain I guess, after you've made your first two or 3 million doing that, at a certain point, you just want to go you know, I wouldn't mind getting something made. Yeah, you know, but I wish I had these problems. I don't know about you, but I wish I had that like you know, I've already made my 3 million this year. So I really would you know,

Jose Silerio 26:08
they're not gonna just play around they may just play around you know, let's just follow the passion project and

Alex Ferrari 26:13
finally violin make that passion project I've been watching about that one legged hooker. And in, in, in New York, the Puerto Rican hooker who really wants to dance, but she only has one leg. It's a Sunday. It's winter. I

Jose Silerio 26:24
can tell you she has a heart of gold

Alex Ferrari 26:27
as Yes, yes. I tell you every time I hear I always tell people that that story that like Echo, you want to get into Sundance, make a movie about a handicapped one legged Puerto Rican hooker with a heart of gold who really wants to dance but is beaten by her father, her drunken Father, you know, who also happens to be a transgender I'm just saying that alone would win Sundance every year guaranteed. And, but you have to follow the 15 beats If not, it doesn't work.

Jose Silerio 27:00
doesn't work at all.

Alex Ferrari 27:03
So um, a lot of also with screenwriters, a lot of emphasis is put on the logline. And I know you guys talk a lot about loglines. Can you give a little bit of advice on how to construct a really great logline and explain what a logline is to people who don't know?

Jose Silerio 27:17
Well I think there's a lot going to be I'll be honest, a lot of FM is always the trickiest thing to write through. And I and I always tell this the writer so I, you know, Blake talks about it in the book in the save the cat that his process was, you know, you write the logline, one of the first things he did was write the logline right before beating it out. And and that's great, because it gives you a good idea of what your story is. But that particular login that you write, the first log line you write is most probably also not going to be the same log line, the same story, you know, that eventually what the script will be, right? Because it as you start to write in writing, things will start changing, you start discovering more about you know, your characters and stores will change. So there is a log line that I think it's great to have early on to keep sort of on track as to what your story what do you think your story is, or what you envision it to be, and, but there is also the log line at the very end that really captures the real story. And you have to know the difference in US writers, but permit us of what what regardless of which particular logline you're writing on the early on or the one that you really want to stand out ready the things that they look for are always going to be which you know, in this basic screenwriting one to one but they call them the big three, which is you know, it has to be able to clearly convey historic belongs to which is the hero number one, you know what the hero wants, meaning the goal and what's stopping the hero from getting the wand you know, what, what's the problem. So the hero the goal, and the problem for me are the big three. And I think that has to be very, very clear in a logline to make it really compelling and this isn't, you know, if this is like a one or two out of three, you have to make sure it's a three out of three thing. If not you have no story. And if that's not there in the logline, then your logline won't have a story. So it's very important to able to make sure that all the three elements have it in in in your logline that you have it in your logline. Another thing that I that I like which Blakely pointed out in the book is having a sense of irony in in the logline. And you know in in that what that really means is that I think what you want to show is that why is this hero, right? The person to go on this journey. So you'll want to be able to build up even in your logline. Right? That why this particular hero is going to be the hero. Why is he going to why is this journey going to be the hardest thing that this year is going to be? So it's really building that up because what you're really telling us is that of all the people that I this is not the right person to do it right? This is not the right person to go on this journey but that's what makes it compelling diehard Dyer exactly right? Yeah. If you end up always having you know, Mr. Universe go up against you know, the big evil you know this right but you know

Alex Ferrari 30:20
that's good that's commando that's coming

Jose Silerio 30:24
Steven Seagal is gonna be the end of the day

Alex Ferrari 30:28
right? I just there's no real there's never a chance like you know maybe Stephen might not want no he's gonna

Jose Silerio 30:35
write me no no then but that's that that works for who he is right and the the characters that the theater plays but again for the rest of you who are not writing, you know action type movies or commando type movies, right you have to find a way to tell us to make sure that you know just by reading the logline, a one sentence, you know, line that we understand we make we understand what the story is. But more importantly is that it's a very compelling story. And again, by doing that it's again giving us a sense of irony in the sense that it's you know, you're you're introducing us to a character who is not supposed to be going on this journey. Right.

Alex Ferrari 31:15
Go ahead. Sorry, go ahead. No, no, you brought up a really good point I wanted to kind of focus on real quick that the irony of a character that he's not supposed to he she's not supposed to be the one on the journey. Ripley from aliens comes to mind, you know, Sarah Connor, Senator Sarah Connor from Terminator. diehard john McClane, the lethal weapon boys like there's no reason for them to, you know, work. And they do what? Star Wars right? And Star Wars The young farm boy who's going up against the Empire?

Jose Silerio 31:49
Exactly. That's that's what think speech robot? Yes. The Word became just starters. Right? Right.

Alex Ferrari 31:57
Exactly. Like he has no real like, and that's and it's something as simple as that. Like, it's not a big huge action thing. It's about a guy who stutters who cast the not stutter, and he has to inspire a nation. Like that's, that's a simple concept. It's not it's not brain surgery. But then I started when you brought that up, I started going I just went back through my mental Rolodex of movies. And I'm like, you know a lot of those 80s action movies like commando like every john Claude Van Damme movie like every Steven Seagal movie and bad action movies. There isn't that a bad action movie? And don't get me i'd love all those movies because you know, I was young when I saw them and I love them. And there's character and charismatic things about Arnold and about you know, Sylvester Stallone and all those things in those certain kind of movies. But the movies that really stand the test of time like you could I just watch Die Hard again, because it's my Christmas movie I always watched because I don't care what anyone says. It's the best Christmas movie of all time. I don't I don't care what anyone says. Oh, yes. has no if you don't see Hans Gruber falling out of a falling out of a window at the end of the day. It's not really Christmas for me. So that's just me. Whoa, whoa, whoa. So um, but I just literally saw it like a few weeks ago. And I was like, I can't believe how wonderful and how brilliantly it's done. And it literally that movie alone spawned hundreds of ripoffs like Die Hard in a boat, Die Hard in the train, Die Hard in the plane, that all this kind of stuff. It was such a brilliant and Pinnacle movie, but it's that what you were talking about. It's the ironic irony of that character who has no business doing that predator is another one. Like, even though Arnold and this entire team are big muscle bound, but they're up against something that's they have no business. They can't be. And that's what makes a good, really, really good compelling story. And I think that's where a lot of writers especially have bad action movies. Really could learn something from please, please

Jose Silerio 33:56
I think that's a die hard is a great example because, you know, in the 80s you know, we were used to seeing all the Schwarzenegger movie right? They know the Rambo Stallone movies. They're all like this muscle Bodley, you know, and suddenly we interview we'll get introduced to john McClane. It's not really the tone of it.

Alex Ferrari 34:16
No, he's a normal dude. He's dude, he's in his locker,

Jose Silerio 34:20
and he's about to get a divorce. Right? by the state together.

Alex Ferrari 34:25
He's a New Yorker in LA, which Trust me, I understand.

Jose Silerio 34:29
I think you know, it's significant. He's totally different guy who gets thrown into, you know, in a bigger than life scenario.

Alex Ferrari 34:40
Yeah, absolutely. And then the brilliance of the you know, the barefoot and the bleeding and I it's like, it's just so brilliantly crafted. I don't know I forgot the name of the screenwriter of that one. But it's so brilliantly crafted, so brilliantly directed, and it holds, even though it's 80s. And you can you know, It's so fun to watch because of you know, all the ad stuff in it. But it's so Britt Robocop another one of those absolutely brilliant, like, there's no reason for that hero to be able to do what he does, and go through what he's going through. So that's a great I've never heard anyone say that. But the irony of the character, or the hero is something that should be very important in your writing process.

Jose Silerio 35:24
I think so because again, it's, there's not that sense of irony, meaning that your hero is not the right person, or shouldn't be the person to be going against this problem or having this goal, right. So right there, you'll find out easily that you'll end the write up stop writing by page 30. Because you're unable to generate more conflict for your hero, right? You lose right with a sense of tension. Because your hero you haven't as we like to sing, save the cat, you haven't taken your hero as far back as possible. Right? So if they're already a great superhero in the first app, right, then again, whatever you throw out in front of them the second that is something that they can easily overcome. And once that happens, you know your story ends at page 30

Alex Ferrari 36:09
that's I think one of the main problems with most Superman movies or even telling the Superman story it's so difficult to create conflict for a god and it's except for the very first one that Richard Donner did and he did it so magically it's like every and we've all been everyone's been trying to get back to that but it's tough to create conflict like the Batman that's why Batman works better than Superman because Batman is a dude who Yeah, he's a billionaire and he has stuff but he can get hurt he can get blood he can get his back broken he can do all this stuff

Jose Silerio 36:43
and his backstory is so much more complex he was orphaned his parents were killed he saw them get killed

Alex Ferrari 36:50
you know it's so much so much Meteor.

Jose Silerio 36:53
Exactly you know it's not just a physical story but really more of the emotional story is what's what's pulls us in

Alex Ferrari 36:59
so I'm really curious to see how this Batman vs Superman yeah fiasco I think it's going to be a fiasco that's just me but I just my personal opinion I looked at the trailer the other day I'm now we're going off topic here. But I saw the trailer the other day and I was just like wow, I don't know if this is gonna work I hope it does. I'm a fan but you know, but then I saw Captain I saw that Captain America Civil War I'm like, this is brilliant. You've got to like look at the conflict in that it's like that. It's the ultimate conflict of friends that we've grown up with if your people seen through these movies, and now they're fighting for ideologies, it's just like, brilliant. Brilliant. I'm sorry, I've gone off on a tangent on superhero movies. I apologize. So um, so what are some of the biggest mistakes you see with screenwriter screenplays? When you read them from like first time writers or just screenplays in general?

Jose Silerio 37:56
I think especially especially you know for us and I would say that we get a lot of for the first time screenwriters even though when they say first time you know it's those within several months haven't really sold anything yet. And one thing I've noticed of play is that a lot of screenwriters tend to write off write a character that's based off another character that they saw in a movie

Alex Ferrari 38:22
really you see are you still seeing a lot of

Jose Silerio 38:24
that Yeah, it is. And it's like we're talking about Die Hard right right. Oh God I die hard in the plane I heard in the train here I didn't know she had sudden

Alex Ferrari 38:33
Sudden Impact Don't forget that one john climb on top of a die hard in a ice rink

Jose Silerio 38:38
so there's a lot of builders I think a lot of people kind of do that still you know I want to make the next taken I want to make

Alex Ferrari 38:45
no there's a there was a after taking came out there I must have been 1000 taken scripts make made

Jose Silerio 38:51
Yeah, right. Or after bridesmaids came up I want to make the next bridesmaid or the hangover right after having overcome I want to make the next time over. So the writing characters writing stories based off other characters have been seen already or that they simply know from watching right from from the film, it's not characters that they really know, in real life. Right? And I think that that's one miss the one big mistake. screenwriters new especially the newer ones do nowadays is that, you know, they start writing off, you know, characters at Oh, this is what john McClane would do. But again, you're not writing john McClane anymore and you have to find you know, in your own writing again, we mentioned this earlier, um, coming up with your own voice what we know what makes you unique as a writer, you have to be able to find you know, that the what makes your characters unique as well. And that's really by you know, right you writing characters based off people you know in real life. Right? You know, that crazy art but you have you know, or you know, absolutely the body, you have from high schools now Your mother is really successful, but in a bad marriage, but there are a lot of things that you can pull out for your people who surround this baby. Right? And I think, you know, that makes it more interesting because now we start seeing people who we know you know can be a little bit more complex who may not necessarily go left when we think everybody's going left you know, what, what makes them different. And I think that's something that newer writers need to learn more how to build better characters.

Alex Ferrari 40:30
I think also what you're saying is advice for every aspect of filmmaking in the sense of Be yourself and stop trying to be someone else whether that be a writer whether that be a director, like I'm gonna be the next Quinn Tarantino I'm like, No, you're not. You can't be because there's only one Quentin Tarantino there's only one Scorsese there's only one Shane Black. Yeah, no, there's don't I mean, I mean, how many people try to rip off Shane Black? After lethal weapon. And after, like, everyone tried to write like, Shane? Yeah, when he was making dough, in the olden days, when everyone was making $2 million, a spec script, you know, sales that don't happen nowadays. But if you just true Be true to them, because if you notice, all of those guys, all of those guys are original. They're all they're all being themselves. Yeah.

Jose Silerio 41:18
They were in their original voice came out 1020 years ago. Right? It worked for them. So now it's time for the newer writers who want to break into to find what is your original voice for today's time?

Alex Ferrari 41:32
Right? Because things that worked 20 years ago will not work today. Yeah. And that's that's a huge and that's when screenwriting and filmmaking is a general statement. A lot of people keep going at it from that point of view of like, I'm going to do what Chamberlain like no, don't know. It's a different place different world today.

Jose Silerio 41:49
So I think if I may, yes, please have time. But another, I think, common mistake that writers have, your writers have an artist is a simply over writing. Especially when it comes to the description and the action part of any we're not, it may not necessarily be an action movie. But you know, when they start describing the action of government that's going on, you know, they describe it to a, you know, the most minute

Alex Ferrari 42:15
or they write it like a novelist like, or even

Jose Silerio 42:17
write it to describe a character, they over describe it. And I think what this does is, especially for me, as I'm reading it, it takes away a sense of creativity on my end, because now you're making me think very specifically, of an action of a person. And that in a way kind of takes away from the read. Because now My mind is again, and this is something readers I mean, I'm sorry, writers have to realize is that your first audience is not the person who buys that movie ticket. Your first audience is the reader, right? And you have to know that you know, they don't have the benefit of music, they don't have the benefit of actual faces of actors, then they can follow. So reading a page is a little bit harder, they have to work a little bit harder in order to follow the story. So don't overdo it. Right? But But prove by putting in too much detail by making it too, you know, too specific, that you know that your own that the reader themselves that aren't losing that, that ability to build the world on their own and get more into it. I think if as readers, if we're given that opportunity to build the world, a little bit on our own as well, following reading the story, then it becomes more interesting and becomes more exciting.

Alex Ferrari 43:33
You know, I was the other day, I was reading a script that was sent to me by a professional writer, like a real, you know, with credits with everything for a project. And when I read it, I had been reading so many bad scripts, that when I read this one, I was like, Oh, this is what a writer is like, it was so the structure was was spot on. Every word was like and I was analyzing it was I was reading it because I was just so taken by like, oh, okay, so he condensed everything right? He didn't overwrite everything. He left it open for your interpretation. But yeah, gave you just enough. If there's that fine balance when you're writing like that, and it was just so wonderful to watch to read. It was a joy to read as opposed to reading, you know, 98% of scripts. Yeah. Which is, which is rough.

Jose Silerio 44:27
Yeah, no, I I've had those moments. Right. From a professional. Right, right. And it's like, before, you know what you read in page 90.

Alex Ferrari 44:37
Right? Exactly. And you're a slow reader.

Jose Silerio 44:42
Until I know, this is a good one.

Alex Ferrari 44:44
This is a good and I think that's also advice for readers like people who are trying to get readers to get coverage and stuff like that they will notice because they've read so much crap all the time that when something of quality walks through the door, whether they like the matter The subject matter or not, they'll recognize talent in the writing. And it's in a come in in a blares out it like that just it screams at you. Because, you know, it's not like you're in a bunch of William Goldman's scripts. And Shane Black scripts and Tarantino scripts are all tossed in, you're like, oh, who's really good? No, it's like a bunch of crap. And then you get that one piece of gold that comes in every once in a while. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. So, so I was fascinated when I was doing a little research for this interview, I found out that save the cat has some software. Yes. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I was kind of exciting. Yeah, we

Jose Silerio 45:46
actually do have a software and the nice thing about the software, it really follows the save the cat method.

Alex Ferrari 45:51
Oddly enough,

Jose Silerio 45:52
I said, too late out, I guess what I should have said, laid out in the book in the first book today Blake kind of goes through it step by step, right? So So even in the software, it kind of forces you if they may use that word, it kind of forces you first to come up with, you know, what's the genre that you want to pick for this story, you know, then it tells you to do the logline. Right. And then but you're not able to jump right away into the beat sheet, or the board, you know, unless you go through it step by step first. And but the nice thing about it is that if you do follow the steps coming up with logline, then only with a logline, you'll be able to go into the beat sheet. Once you have your beat sheet, that's only when you're able to go into the board, you know. So it has all the elements of what makes the same the cap method. And what they said it kind of forces you to go through it step by step. I think that's the nice thing about it, because it really helps you think and not just, I know there's arthritis, we're always eager to jump the page one and fade in, right. But it but that can also always get us into trouble right away, there is you know, you take the time, the first thing about the idea first, the premise and the stories are fleeting thoughts that will be the outlines and building structure before you actually go to page one. And that's that that's that's what I think this software is good at. It helps you sort of focus little by little step by step, that when by the time you do get to page one fade in, you know you've done the hard work already, right? Like I said, it follows all the rules of save the cat, it takes you to the beat sheet, it takes you to the board, the 40 cards board and you can see it all laid out in front of you in your screen

Alex Ferrari 47:35
now Can you can you explain I was gonna ask Can you explain what the board is? Because a lot of people might not know what the board is. I love using the board when I when I write it's so helpful. So can you explain it because there's the software version, then you're obviously taking it from a real life version, like actual board and stuff. So can you explain what that is?

Jose Silerio 47:52
Yeah, and it's same thing, you know, when when, first my introduction to the board also came from Blake, and how we how we explain it is that, you know, he walked into a producer's room. And oddly enough, same thing happened to me a few years after he told me about it was the end he sees, you know, it's corkboard in front of him where your little index cards laid out. And what the test is, you know, it saved the cat, how we have it is that you have a big letters, cork board, or whiteboard, or whatever it is you're writing, you break that board into four rows, each row representing an app, well, but you're gonna say okay, but there's four rows. So why 4x? Well, it's x 1x, two, a x to be an x three. And in each row, you have, we have 10 cards, and each card really is a scene or a sequence. Not meaning that again, it's always you can start what's you're doing really here now with the board, surely, you are writing, right, and you're working on scenes already, you're doing scene structure work already here. And it allows you to sort of the follow your hero, in terms of its plot in terms of its emotional story. Throughout, you know, you're able to lay out scenes and see if it's working in Act One, or in Act Two, you know, if it's not, you can move them around. But the nice thing about it is that again, you're able just in a very visual, immediate sense. Just by looking at the board, you're able to look at it right away and see how the story is playing out. You can see where the characters are moving forward. You know, you can even I think one thing I always emphasize with writers, so when they do the boards, make sure you're also able to follow the emotional story in the board. You know, one thing we like talking about in save the cat is having the base story. And what the beast story is, is for those who are familiar with it, what it represents, it's really just the theme of the story. Right? So what what they don't do

Alex Ferrari 49:52
is that it's at that subplot or is that the B is that is a subplot or is that

Jose Silerio 49:56
a subplot? It's the emotional story got it. That the Yeah that you that you're stoked that you're here almost go so

Alex Ferrari 50:02
then tight. So what's the emotional story of Titanic just so people have a reference?

Jose Silerio 50:06
Well, let's say for rose, right? The physical story is, I'm going to get married to what's his name? Billy Zane. Right, Billy is the emotional story for her is that she has to be able to tell her mom, I'm not gonna do what you're telling me anymore. And she wants to be my own person. Right? Right. And that's what jack? What's his name? Leonardo. The capital teaches her

Alex Ferrari 50:27
because she's she's, she is the character she is the main character.

Jose Silerio 50:31
I agree with you. He is the main character. And that's what it likes it Leo does for he's the one who forces her to learn the lesson to learn the theme of the story in order to be her own person.

Alex Ferrari 50:42
So in other words, it's not a subplot. But like exactly like the outside the the obvious thing is like, I'm gonna marry this guy, and I'm going on this boat. Yeah, what the emotion about what the intention of her character is this, what she's going after, this is the the inner struggle or the inner journey, the inner journey,

Jose Silerio 51:02
it's the inner journey, it's the internal story, got it. with Luke Skywalker, the external was picked on the Death Star, right, the internal, so he needs to learn to be a Jedi to believe and to trust to trust, and even. So that's what you know. So going back now to the board when it does right there. So you can mark this cards, you know, whether you use color, or whatever it is, it's the market, you know, let's say blue is going to be external story. Red is going to be internal story. It's a simple that that you can put on each card, and then you can see where you're playing out the emotional story as well. So I think the board is, like I said, hopefully I'm explaining it well enough. Now, yeah, that you're able to see right away just by standing in front of it. You know, what you have, where the story's going, where your hero is going, you know, how you're playing out the physical and the emotional story throughout. But it's also you know, it's same see if you do it now, meaning, you know, if you do get the board right away before you start writing pages, if you see like a certain sequence is not working, like in the middle of second app, then you can either take it out, put it away for another day, or maybe you say after, you know, this sequence might work better in Act One. But you can do it right away. You're supposed to doing it later, or after six months or nine months of having written a first draft, but instead to say, wait a minute, page 50 to 55 wasn't working. But you know, I should have known that nine months ago. Right? Right, and save myself the time. Right? So that's the beauty of what the board

Alex Ferrari 52:34
is now this in the software, do you have that option for the dots? Yes, you do. Oh, great.

Jose Silerio 52:41
You know, again, get the all of that we won't have time, but there are little places where you can assign color to it. Perfect. Sounds wonderful. And it's just a simple thing, but even assigning color to characters. I think it's a wonderful little trick. You know, if, let's say green is going to be my villain. But if you're looking at your board, and your entire second row has no green in it, then you know you're in trouble. Because you don't have a villain in it. And the villain is the source of conflict.

Alex Ferrari 53:08
That would be that would be the first Twilight movie. The worst films I've ever seen. I don't care what anyone says. Who's horrendous. The villain shows up 20 minutes. I don't care spoiling it. 20 minutes at the end. I'm like, Are you kidding me? Are you kidding? The first hour and 20 minutes just have them pining for each other. It washorrendous. horrendous

Jose Silerio 53:32
There you go. See if they had the board.

Alex Ferrari 53:34
They had what? Like look, they made a couple bucks on that. So what do we know? But they but it's not definitely not being studied by screenwriters. For their for their structure, a story narrative character or directing. But I'm sorry again, I apologize. I just couldn't like when you said that. I'm like yes, no villain. I that's the first movie that came to them. Like, because look what happens in Star Wars first, like three, four minutes of the movie? Yeah, the best the best opening of a villain arguably ever and everybody and that was a wonderful thing about that film is that I've read I've listened to I've probably seen every interview with George Lucas ever about that movie about Star Wars and he said that no matter where you were in the world, even if you had no idea who Darth Vader was you knew and you didn't speak English Yeah, you knew that was the bad guy. Yeah that was that's the brilliance and universal appeal of of those movies is like you knew and it did that thing with Kylo Ren as well that and the way they've designed his mask and it was all very strategic to portray a villain instantly. Yeah, it's

Jose Silerio 54:47
another great example if I made is you know which which again was one of my favorites was whiplash which I mentioned. Cyber the way they introduced the first two minutes. For me, it just Just as good as introducing Darth Vader

Alex Ferrari 55:02
I mean I'll tell you what when I watched that movie it was it was hard to watch that's a movie that's hard to watch a little bit because he's so brilliant at being just just horrible human. Yeah, exactly he's so brilliant at it that it just I felt like I'm like just leave man just it's not worth it man just go don't play the damn drums anymore Just go

Jose Silerio 55:28
get rewatch but we know you're gonna want to walk away

Alex Ferrari 55:31
but you know what's brilliant is and he deserved the Oscar without question because he carries that movie does the whole movie is him as I may know he's not the main character but he is so overpowering as the actor and the character is so overpowering. That without him there's so much he's he's the Empire. He is here and this poor kid is Luke and it's like, but that's if Darth Vader was yelling at Luke throwing symbols at its

Jose Silerio 56:01
chair with the force

Alex Ferrari 56:02
yes just throwing the force like come on Luke three beats three beats with the lightsaber Come on. Now and you also have an app right to save the cat app is that different than the software?

Jose Silerio 56:18
No, it's it's it's it's it's the same but and again, like you said it's an app it's for your laptop, it's for your iPhone, or your iPad or Android. I'm have to be clear and I'm not sure about that. But I know you can work on your iPhone but it helps you go through the same thing it's sort of like a miniature version of what you can get on your laptop or your computer got it but it's the same thing it helps you go through again your logline and then the beats and then you can even do the cards here but each card will be like one because it is just an iPhone

Alex Ferrari 56:53
like wild card it doesn't give

Jose Silerio 56:54
you the slot you can play around it you can you can get what's the word play between the app and the software I think you can link it if I if I have that right okay so what you have in there in your app we can go from the cloud and you know write about in your in your in your computer

Alex Ferrari 57:11
and if you're at Starbucks writing your your script and you have an idea real quick and you don't have your laptop yeah pop it into your iPad or iPhone because I was I was talking to another Screenwriter The other day is like people here in LA if people outside of La don't understand that if you walk into a Starbucks there's at least two people writing a screenplay at Starbucks in Los Angeles at any time of the day Yeah,

Jose Silerio 57:33
exactly.

Alex Ferrari 57:34
Exactly never fails never never fails so I'm I'm now comes to the part of the show that is the toughest questions I ask all my all my guests so are you are you ready

Jose Silerio 57:44
sir? All right, I hope so. Okay,

Alex Ferrari 57:47
and what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether that be in the film business or in life in general

Jose Silerio 57:53
Ah, you know what? This for me it's it's the discipline of writing this for me personally I think it's something also the you know a lot of writers struggle with it is especially those who want to make writing their career job

Alex Ferrari 58:11
it's time that white page that white page is a mountain

Jose Silerio 58:13
yeah and but it is really just simply finding the time day in and they are yeah to say I'm going to ride literatures for 10 minutes 30 minutes yep one are you are a page a day because it's so easy to get caught up with him especially except for those the newer ones especially those who have a day job it's it you can easily get caught up in other things and before you know it a week has passed you haven't written a single page before you know it's two months ready. Right? You haven't written 10 pages. So it is it's not necessarily a lesson right? But this being able to spring to discipline yourself and say that I will be writing today and again, for me it's you have to put a goal a daily goal that is that is attainable. for for for you. So you know, I know other writers who do like a page a day. I know who someone who does six pages a day we just stuff I tried doing six pages a day. It's it's sounds a lot easier than London. Yes. But once you do it, it's tough. But you have to find a system that works for you that makes it like I said, attainable each and every day. So whether you go by page count or by minute count, you have to do it and if it means having to wake up a little earlier or tell your kids at the end of the day you know story that is playing right now on its own Yes, exactly. Oh man that you have to you have to do it. And I think if anything, it's just that you have to keep writing if you want really be a good writer, and I tell this to all writers, you just have to write it's it's not just writing but also reading scripts. Not necessarily just watching movies, just watching movies is nice, but lead scripts Well, you know, and you have to find a way to put that into your schedule as well. Yeah, that's certainly the best lesson for for one, to become a not just a good writer but to be really a working writer.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:14
You know, the, if I if I may quote Woody Allen 90% of success is just showing up. Very true it's and it's true that consistency of showing up every day and doing the work even if it's five minutes, even if it's 10 minutes, but it's that everyday thing and that's what people get heart like if you can get into that routine of just doing it every day little by little and trust me I know that even even Academy Award winning writers have problems Yeah, writing it like they're just like, oh god, I gotta go and write you know, it's like it's it's writing is one of the most laborious processes on the planet and it's one of the most underappreciated parts of the industry without question because without a great script, there is no movies and it's it is rough so that's a great great piece of advice. Now what are your top three favorite films of all time?

Jose Silerio 1:01:07
Oh, man, that's I think this is even the tougher question Yes, yes, yes, this big three All right. One would be I think the safe answer, but I really loved it and it's one of those movies I keep watching over and over again. Is Shawshank Redemption of course.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:19
Of course it's one of my top three as well why Twilight obviously too but no no Shawshank knows second a close second was Twilight No. No Shawshank is it's it's amazing it's it's it's it's honestly To me it's as perfect of a movie as you can get it for me because it's my generations godfather

Jose Silerio 1:01:39
through Yeah, very very true. I think Same thing with me. You know, it's one of the reason why I love it so much is because it really it kind of breaks so many rules, but it all works. Yep. Right? It's all a cool story to read. Is it Andy's? Right? What? You're going to go there at the end of the movie, you're just like, Who cares?

Alex Ferrari 1:01:58
So I was gonna say like, whose story and like now you when he was asked me that my whose story is it? Is it it is? Is it rent? Yeah, I think it's, I think it's read maybe because he's the narrator.

Jose Silerio 1:02:10
Because he's the news. In terms of and again, for me, it's always like who had the biggest change? Right? And it's, and it's read. Yeah. You read his story, although you would think a lot of the action or out of the action being instigated was being instigated by by Andy.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:26
But Andy, but Andy didn't make that large of a change not not as big as he was just doing what he does. Yeah, exactly. But read from the moment you see and you actually see them in different temples of the movie when that whole interview with the with the board the parole board. Yeah, how he changes and you can literally I mean that he really lays it out for you Frank Darabont does, and it's absolutely brilliant. And another one of his movies Green Mile, I love Love, love, love green mo so go ahead sorry

Jose Silerio 1:02:57
about Shawshank again I think that's number one for me yeah um another one to I guess again there's no really order of course. One of the most perfect scripts I've read in the movie as well came out really really nicely. was a Little Miss Sunshine such a

Alex Ferrari 1:03:14
really good movie it's such a brilliant movie

Jose Silerio 1:03:16
I I tell you an evening I met Elvis oh right this when I read the script, I said it as as perfect as I could get reading a script. Yeah, it's, it's tight. It's a tight vibe. And you're following all these characters again, one of those that you know Michael Arndt did a great job is building all these characters. We get to know all the characters right there in the first 10 minutes. We're following all their stories in it's it's great. It's one of those again, it's my my way of engaging like it's a favorite of mine. If you know when you're just surfing the BVI. You happen to see it, then you stop. Yeah, absolutely. 50 pounds ready before, right? It's one of those Little Miss Sunshine. And then the other one, a smaller movie that I really, really, really loved as well. Was Billy Elliot.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:00
Oh, yeah, I love Billy Elliot. I remember Billy Elliot, that was a really sweet film.

Jose Silerio 1:04:04
Yeah. And I think that this I think maybe just happened to be fine with me when when I had my first child when they first came out. So the whole Father Son, thing was,

Alex Ferrari 1:04:12
you secretly want to dance I understand.

Jose Silerio 1:04:17
I love you know, how they played out in our kids journey of him simply wanting to dance played against the backdrop of what's happening in his dad's world, you know, with the coal miner striking and having a bigger theme out there, but yet their theme really was just the same. I think it just makes you laugh. It makes it cry. It's what the movie should be. That's a great that's a great list. Yeah, so that's kind of my top three I think. For now.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:46
For now. Yeah.

Jose Silerio 1:04:48
2016 Yes, Mr. Morrow, it may change. Of course, of course.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:52
Now, what's the most underrated film you've ever seen?

Jose Silerio 1:04:54
Ah, this is a tough one. I think a lot there. I always look for you know, good movies. Every year just like one small movie that comes out that for me to say I didn't even know that came out in the movie as in I watch it in DVD but I love that completely. Right and there's sort of like they have that in the field but although there are recognizable actors in nature, sure, right, I think, like, in 2013 there's like the way way back. We Oh, yeah, I like the way way back, which is great movie that Steve Carell Toni Collette, you know, great cast. There was, yes, in 2014. There's a smaller one. With the skeleton, the skeleton twins. This is Bill Hader and Kristen Wiig. I haven't seen that one. It's again, it's a small movie, right? It's very indie ish. I just love how they built the characters and the relationship that they have. So you know, so it goes from me every year, I have kind of the one that they love that they felt like was real. And so 2015 was 2015 2015. For me. I was gonna say, but it's also actually looked at not being too happy to for 2014. Again, this, this is where I leave you. Okay. But you know, I think one big one that I thought was underrated or just I didn't even hear about it until somebody told me was moon. Everything moon.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:12
Oh, yeah, that's the one with some rock. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Jose Silerio 1:06:16
I in terms of like, thriller, movies. is one of those episodes. Wow, this really grabbed me. It was like, What the hell is going on here? Really? Just nicely. Why don't you just read the following one character? Yeah, some Rachael Rockwell character, right? And then it's like, you're caught in it.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:35
You're in, you're in the web,

Jose Silerio 1:06:36
you can't get up in you know, like I said, I found out about it simply because somebody told me about it. And I said, Look, I had to watch it, then to not tell everybody. Have you seen movies?

Alex Ferrari 1:06:47
That's a brilliant. That's the brilliant thing about when you find a little gem like that, like, why hasn't someone else seen this? What's going on? Yeah. So where can people find more about you and more about save the cat?

Jose Silerio 1:07:00
Well save the cat. So website, savethecat.com or Blakesnyder.com. But it's the same, I think the easy one to remember, save the cat.com. And in there, the website talks about you know, things that we do workshops that we have, consultations, we do but it also like we also bring up big sheets of movies that have come out, which is always a great resource for writers.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:23
You have some new ones now to fill up some of the most recent movies.

Jose Silerio 1:07:27
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we have people who contribute into it. So So that's kind of the best way to keep up with with save the cat. And again, like I said, it's it's an ongoing thing. It's a way of keeping, you know, Blake's method in alive and updated all the time.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:47
Fantastic. Well, Jose, man, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure talking to you today. I hope you had fun.

Jose Silerio 1:07:52
All right. Thank you very much for having us, Alex.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:55
Appreciate it. Seriously, guys, if you've not read this book, you've got to go out and get it save the cat is an awesome, awesome book. It's just Blake wrote it so wonderfully. And it really opens up your eyes to a lot of different avenues of what it takes to be a screenwriter and how to tell a story. And his method is pretty amazing how it matches up in the in the world of movies today. And in the actual blog post or the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com/071. I put a couple of videos of how Blake's method, mastery measures up to certain movies, and they actually go through scene by scene of these very famous Hollywood movies. And you can see where all of his points line up perfectly. It's quite remarkable to watch. So definitely check that out. Now, guys, again, if you want to be part of the indie film, hustle, tribe, and community, that's what we're really about. We're trying to connect not only you guys to me, but you guys to each other, and create a community where we can share knowledge, share information, and share resources to get our movies made. And I've kind of put together a hub for everybody to go to and talk and communicate and exchange information and so on. If you go to our Facebook group, our indie film, hustle, private group on Facebook, and all you got to do is go to indiefilmhustle.com/Facebook. And not only do you get like, first cracks at all of our new articles, and posts and videos and things like that, but you get to watch and listen to other filmmakers and see what they're doing, and see how they can help you and learn from them. And if you have any information about things you've read on the line somewhere that might help the community, please post it there as well. So definitely check that out. indiefilmhustle.com/Facebook. And as always, please go to filmmakingpodcast.com and leave us a honest review of the show. It really helps to show out a lot and it helps us get the word out and what we're trying to do with indie film hustle So, thank you guys so much for all the amazing emails and messages I get from you guys, I've really it really keeps me going and really helps me on those tough days where I don't want to get up and don't want to do a new pod guys, but I love doing this for you guys. And I love helping you guys out as much as I can. So thank you from the bottom of my heart for all the support and well wishes. And I will continue to do the good work that we're doing here at indie film hustle for you guys. We got some really cool stuff coming up in the next few weeks. Got some announcements coming up in the next few weeks. So stay tuned for all of that. And I wish you guys nothing but the best on your filmmaking journey. And it is a glorious one. If you know what you're doing. Thank you guys. I'll see you soon. Keep that hustle flowing. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 070: A Filmmaker’s Focus – Podcast Interview with Alex Ferrari

So this week I’m doing something different. I occasionally get asked to be guest on other people’s podcasts. In this podcast I go over topics I might not have spoken about on the IFH Podcast in the past so to mix things up, with the permission of the hosts,  I’ll be uploading bonus episodes with these interviews.

In my effort to bring you more value I think you’ll enjoy these interviews. First up is my interview with Doc Kennedy from the Filmmaker’s Focus PodcastThis interview was a ton of fun. Let me know what you think in the comments below.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 1:08
So guys, today we have a special episode, I did an interview a while back on a wonderful podcast called filmmakers focus with Doc Kennedy. And the interview was so cool. I really wanted you guys to take a listen to it. Doc did a great job. And I talked about a whole bunch of different things about the industry that I haven't spoken about before on on the show, so I thought it'd be a nice little bonus episode to kind of toss in there for you guys. So I hope you guys like this bonus episode. So enjoy.

Doc Kennedy 1:40
Hey, Alex, welcome to the show.

Alex Ferrari 1:41
Thanks for having me, man.

Doc Kennedy 1:43
This is exciting for me. I love, love, love indie film, hustle.

Alex Ferrari 1:47
Thank you so much

Doc Kennedy 1:48
Awesome stuff going on.

Alex Ferrari 1:49
I appreciate that, brother. Thanks again. I appreciate that.

I was excited to see that indie film Academy recently ranked you number two. Man, that's, that's crazy.

Jason is Jason's a good friend of mine. And he did that on purpose. He called me up he's like, I'm not going to ranking number one, man. I'm just not going to do it. It was just a lot of fun. Because I always we, Jason I have kind of like a wonderful rivalry. But it's very friendly. We're really good friends. And, and even ever since he I think he mentioned it to me once when we're talking when they just like Hey, did you know you like the number one filmmaking podcast on iTunes, and I'm like, I am and, and I looked at her like I am. And the second like, within three hours, I had a post about it. I was promoting it as the number one film and he's like, son, oh, that was Black Friday for me Alex but we're friends now Look, man, we'll take any look, we'll take anything that anything I could give you a little bit of a leverage or a little bit of a, you know, bump to help you move forward and your business is is greatly appreciated. And, and I think it's always a good thing for for all of us, you know, in this space, the filmmaking, space podcast, specifically, to kind of help each other out as much as we can, because we just want to get more people, more filmmakers to, to come to this amazing resource that is podcasting. And there are some really good podcasts. There's some really horrible ones. But there are some really, really good and there's a lot of great information in this medium that I think filmmakers are slowly starting to come around where a lot of the other niches like internet marketing or business or other things like that have kind of you know, they these guys get, you know, millions of views a month, a downloads a month. So it's something that I'm trying to do myself just trying to bring as many filmmakers to the podcast medium as possible.

Doc Kennedy 3:54
I love it. Nice for me. So I'm doing a lot driving right now, I'm able to just flip on your show, Jason show, download all this information into my brain that you know, while I'm doing nothing, literally, right? I'm able to soak in all this knowledge and I mean, it's invaluable to me.

Alex Ferrari 4:15
Yeah, it's I mean I when I I've been a big podcast listener for probably over a year now and I just started listening to a lot of guys outside of our niche and outside of the film industry just kind of learning about all this kind of stuff and a man it's insane. Like the stuff that the knowledge, the knowledge bombs, if you will, are insane, that kind of stuff. You can sit down and listen to like, you know, I just listened to a podcast on Tim Ferriss. I love Tim Ferriss podcast. He's like one of the top podcasts out there. And he was interviewing Kevin Costner. He interviewed Jamie Foxx and you just sit there listening to like Jamie Foxx talk about how he came up and stuff like that's freaking awesome. And you get so many cool stories and not only entertaining but the knowledge that they come With his insane I was just listening to Gene Simmons this morning at the gym, from you know, kiss, and he has a new book out about, you know, being a businessman. And the stuffing was laying down I was like, This is awesome. podcasts are so so powerful, you know, and whoever's listening to this obviously knows that now, but but it's so so powerful especially it's kind of like an audio book but really quick bytes of great information if the show's done right.

Doc Kennedy 5:29
And agree more. I love this man. So, uh, why don't you give us just a little bit of background about yourself, Alex?

Alex Ferrari 5:36
Um, I am a carnie I've been working on the carnival. No, I'm joking. I'm

Doc Kennedy 5:43
Sure there was something.

Alex Ferrari 5:43
Yeah, I know exactly right. I'm a circus circus folk. Now I'm basically I've been a filmmaker for about 20 years, I've been in the film industry for about 20 years, I've probably produced over finished and post production where I've made my bones most of the time. Most of the time in this business. I've been in post production for about 15 years in the business of post production. I've delivered probably over 1000 projects, or more, you know, between commercials, music, videos, feature films, short documentaries, and all that kind of stuff. And that experience of just being in the post side of things has given me a very unique perspective on the film industry as well as being the director for the last 12 years or so. I've been a director commercials, music videos, short films, and I've been produced I've been a producers on features as well. And I have a very unique perspective on the film industry because I've, I get a front row seat, but I get a back door seat, and I'm in that back door room while the things are going on in post where you sit down and you're in a room for sometimes months at a time with people. And a lot of information gets shared and in a good way not unlike you know, the cheesy gossip boy, but just like you should sit there and you watch what they go through you sit and you see the processes of finishing the movie, the technical aspects of finishing the movie, the story, all that kind of stuff. But the business side is very fascinating to me because you kind of see what they go through like Oh, if I would have had this Act, or maybe I would have done this or, and figured something out or if Oh, you know, like a perfect example give you a perfect example of a movie I worked on. They made a movie that I call a graded it for them. You know, small movie was out of town out of LA. And it was like a sci fi thriller. And they know stars at all. The guy went out try to sell it couldn't get it sold. Because he had no stars in it. And the genre hadn't built up an audience or anything. We could talk about that later. But he was just going down the traditional distribution routes. And then he came back to me six months later he goes Alex, I need you to color Grade A few more scenes for the movie. We've shot a few scenes. I'm like, Okay, great. Who's in those who's in it is like, oh, Michael Madsen and another actor that you might know. I'm like, fantastic. And then he it re edited the movie replaced the shots with the old actor put the new actors in when unsold it because he was a he was a very smart producer and filmmaker, he figured it out. He's like, if I don't do this, if I don't spend a little bit of money to get these actors to come in and do a few scenes for me, I'm not going to be able to sell this movie, which was so eye opening for him. And I knew I mean, I'd already known that, but I've never seen someone actually implement it, which was really wonderful to like, kind of go back and like you know what, I gotta go redo these scenes with a name actor, because that's the only way I'm gonna sell this thing. So anyway, that perspective of being in the film industry. It gives me like that really unique point of view on the whole thing. And when I came up as a filmmaker. years ago, I created a short film called broken which is I think, at this point, the most nauseating, most spoken about short film in the history of short films. I keep bringing it up and people keep bringing it up. So I'm like, Alright, well just let's talk about it. And I was able to back 12 got cheese about 12 years ago now. It was released in 2005. So about six years ago. I 16. Yeah, 11 years ago, sorry, I'm horrible at math. We were able to shoot this movie on dv mini DV. We had over 100 visual effects shots in it we made made it for 1000 bucks at the time, no stars no nothing. shot in West Palm Beach, Florida. And edited on Final Cut color graded on Final Cut on a TV monitor was a very first thing ever color graded in my life. And I color graded it in Final Cut with a bunch of different plugins that I created this insane look for. And we released it into the world. And I got into over almost 200 Film Festivals with it. Roger Ebert reviewed it, which is a whole other story and But the big thing was I was able to sell it. And I actually put together this course map course but I put together this Got to film school behind the scenes of how I was able to do it. Because a lot of filmmakers want to know how I was able to pull so much out of that technology out of the mini DV technology, I was able to take it and make it look very filmic when a lot of people had the exact same camera and just had no idea how to do it. So I put together about three hours worth of stuff and put it on a DVD and sold it and we made roughly over $90,000 with it. You know selling DVDs sold over 5000 DVDs. And just kept going in and just kind of grew into this thing. And today people are still talking about it. And you know and I, I just repackaged it and put it together and another course that I released called filmmaking hacks, how to shoot and

market your film. And I put a bunch of the stuff that was still very relevant, added a whole bunch of new stuff and people still like love it. Like there's still love all the all this kind of behind the scenes stuff that I did on it. So that's a not a quick breakdown of who I am. It's something Sorry, I didn't mean to throw a pitch in there. I just was just kind of just went into it.

Doc Kennedy 11:04
And that's what that's what we do. Right!

Alex Ferrari 11:06
Yeah. hustling. Yeah, we hustle, baby, we hustle.

Doc Kennedy 11:10
So one question that I want to ask you. And this really ties into what you were just talking about? What do you see up and coming? indie filmmakers doing right?

Alex Ferrari 11:21
I'm just doing right in general

Doc Kennedy 11:23
Just doing right now. And we can talk about what they're doing bad all day long. But let's talk about a little bit about what they're doing right, and then we'll turn down.

Alex Ferrari 11:30
Okay, well, I think a few filmmakers that I've seen in study to understand the concept of audience building. Understand that that is the new paradigm that the whole film industry is changing into. If you want to be an independent artist, independent filmmaker, you have to build audiences, you have to be able to build the audience. Have you ever heard of the the, the concept of the 1000 1000 true fan theory? Yeah. So for the audience, for the audience, for your audience that might not know the 1000 true fans is was written by an art, it was an article written by the co founder of Wired Magazine, and basically stating that all you need is 1000 true fans to support you as a artist, filmmaker, whatever. And the concept is, if you got 1000 people to pay you $100 a year $100,000. That's not a bad deal. Most people can make a decent living at $100,000, doing what you love to do. And if you start thinking about us, like, well, that's about $10 a month, you know, 10 to $12, whatever the math is, and it started making sense. So if a filmmaker can build an audience, that audience can support that filmmaker through multiple films. So one of the there was a movie that just came out, called Kung Fury. Have you heard of that one?

Doc Kennedy 12:49
Yeah, I've seen it. It's insane.

Alex Ferrari 12:52
And love that and hilarious. It's so funny. But that was such a wonderful example of what a filmmaker did, right? This guy who is outside of the business, and when I say outside, I mean, outside. He's in like, Sweden, or something along those lines. He's not in the US at all. He had a love for 80s movies and decided to make a short film about, you know, I think it's a kung fu cop, who's in the 80s, who goes back in time to kill Hitler.

Doc Kennedy 13:25
And which seems like a logical concept,

Alex Ferrari 13:28
obviously, obviously. And then, and there's Thor involved too, and they go back into time, there's some dinosaurs. It's just brilliant. It's just a brilliant concept. So but he went on to Kickstarter, and I think he raised 130 $30,000 for a short film. But he was able to crowd crowdsource and crowdfund. So as he was building his budget up his money, his war chest, he was building up an audience. And then that audience started talking and they started evangelizing for him. And all of a sudden now he's made obscene amounts of money with this short film, puts puts by poor little broken to shame. He, he's made obscene amounts of money, he's been able to merchandise like crazy. People are cosplaying to him at Comic conventions, you know, it's this kind of underground thing. But it doesn't have to be Star Wars. You know, it could be underground, it could be that that small audience. And that's the thing. I think one of the things that if I can jump to one thing that people do wrong, filmmakers do wrong is they try to appeal to everybody. But the people who really succeed appeal to a very niche audience. So if you try to be broad, you can't afford to get the attention of an entire broad audience. So you can't go I need that I need to I need to go after males from 18 to 45. You don't have the money to do that. You're not a studio you don't have $100 million to blanket. All media for a week for people to to be aware of your movie, but This guy did. He's like, you know, I'm going after guys and girls who love the 80s. And I'm gonna do this really ridiculous little short about the 80s. And people who love the 80s. And love those action movies of the 80s in the sci fi of the 80s. And that's what his niche, that's what we went after. And he was able to not only make a living off of that, now he's building it up into like this little Empire, that, you know, I'm sure he's not making millions with it, he might be who knows God knows how much he's making with it. But the point is that he's, he's a successful filmmaker, he's made a profit. And as a short, it's a short, it's not even a feature. It's a short film. I can't wait for him to do a feature film version of this, like, I'm sure he's working on it as we speak. And I'm sure the second that he puts it out there, to crowdfund again, he'll probably get half a million bucks that make it or 2 million bucks to make it, you know, because there's such an audience, he was able to build that audience up and start mining that audience, giving the audience what they want, and the audience and then is in return paying him or giving him money to continue to do his art. So it's a it's a wonderful exchange, you create a product, the audience wants that product, they exchange money for it, it's called commerce. You know, and but it's a wonderful thing when an artist is able to do that. And I think that was a that's a wonderful example of someone doing it right? And just building that audience is so, so, so important. And then there's so many other steps along the way. But audience building and crowdsourcing as opposed to crowdfunding and those are two different things. It's so integral into the filmmaking a filmmakers process nowadays it has to be

Doc Kennedy 16:34
so I can even though I can't hear people, I can hear them right now saying, I don't have an audience. How do I I can't do that, you know, how do I even start? Well, I'll tell that person now.

Alex Ferrari 16:46
Well, I'll tell you what I just did. I launched indie film hustle six months ago.

Doc Kennedy 16:52
That's all six months ago and you're already the top rank making podcast on iTunes.

Alex Ferrari 16:57
So I'm going to tell you how I did it and this is how and this is what I am now teaching and trying to spread the word on I literally came out of nowhere I was not active on Facebook I was I had a Facebook account of course and you know I've had you know people from the olden days from broken days and stuff don't I was huge on Myspace By the way, but she was on Myspace By the way, so I wasn't I had no Twitter account. I had I mean I had my personal again just just had no other reason but never really used. It. Had no no website, no concept. This was a brand new entity. No one had ever heard of it before. And I leveraged nothing leveraged the only thing I leveraged with a handful of people who knew who I was. And that was a small handful that wasn't a mount you know, I didn't have a huge following by any stretch. And when I made a handful of people I mean these are friends of mine, you know, that's it. So I literally launched indie film hustle and started to build an audience now that I'm sure you're gonna ask Alex How did you do this? I created I created a brand new Facebook page had zero followers I created a brand new Twitter page zero followers created a brand new Instagram page zero followers and created a YouTube page zero followers, brand new starting from scratch. And then I just started pumping content out pumping really good content out because for me, I knew who my audience was my audience was independent filmmakers. I know independent filmmakers, I love independent filmmakers. They are they are the the audience that I know inside and out because I am an independent filmmaker. So I understand what I need and what I want. And I would I would pay money for what I would find valuable. And I did not see that in the marketplace. Similar to come theory, there are no other you know, cop Miami cops who go back in time to kill Hitler movies. So they're very rare. And if they're if they're already at all, other than his so I saw I saw a hole in the marketplace. Now don't get me wrong, there are other people doing what I do. Like, you know, like, we talked about Jason with indie film Academy, Scott over at film trooper and a bunch of other guys who do what, you know what I do. But the difference was I came in from a different perspective altogether. And everyone has a different flavor of what they do and how they, how they present their information. I came from a position or a place of 20 years experience a lot of post experience and also filmmaking experience. So I can just kind of go out there and go, you know what, guys, I'm going to tell you guys the truth of stuff that I know for a fact that these are these are truths that I I'm not seeing anyone tell you. So I started creating content based around that. And then I fell into this podcasting format, which was very strategic. I was going to create a podcast but I had no idea how powerful podcasting really was until I jumped into it. And then I saw that there was a very big hole in the marketplace. Casting. So I was like, You know what, let me go, I want to, I want to give everybody as much great information as I possibly can, things that nobody else talks about. Things like how to know how to know when to work for free, post production workflow, understand it or die. You know why you shouldn't maybe shoot 4k if you're not ready to shoot 4k, because you might not understand the workflow. And you might die in post production, which is something I've seen many times now. So these are things that I was just kind of going down the road don't hire a dp just because they have a red camera, you know, mistakes like that, that people aren't talking about. So like, let's just put some shine a light on it. So because I was able to do that, I started building a following. Because I created great content, I created content that was relevant to my niche. So I understood my niche, I understood my audience. And then I started to give the audience what they wanted. For free, I'm giving it to them for free, I just want to build an audience. So as I keep giving them free stuff, free stuff, free stuff. And by the way, it's insane the amount of stuff I put out. And by the way, I do this all myself, I have nobody else with me.

Doc Kennedy 21:06
All the graphics or everything, everything.

Alex Ferrari 21:08
I designed the website from scratch myself, I'm the tech guy I have no, I haven't I have nothing I've nobody else. This is everything you see that has any film hustles name on it, it's either by me, or occasionally I'll get a guest post from somebody. And even then I'm still creating the graphics and launching it and marketing and and pushing it and all that kind of stuff. So I put out a tremendous amount of content, because I'm insane. And I have a vigor of what's the word? ambition, it's it's almost insane the amount of ambition I have. And when I turn it on, it's very difficult to turn off the spout. So I just wanted to keep going, keep going, keep going. So when I hit the scene, like Jason and Scott, and these guys, they contacted like, Who are you? Like, like, what's, where did you come from, and I came in like a freight train a couple of I think a few people call me a freight train, because it was just like a non stop entity that just kept coming. And, and, and we became friends, and we kind of start talking to each other and helping each other out. Because I believe that if you help other people around you, the tide lifts all boats. And that's, that's, you know, as opposed to like, oh, you're my competition, you're my competition. I noticed that from other niches that I was studying in, you know, other internet marketers and things like that they don't cannibalize each other, they kind of help each other. So I think a lot of times filmmakers themselves like, oh, I've got a movie, you got a movie, you're gonna take my money away from my crowdfunding? Like No, dude. Like, I guarantee you, the guy who's gonna give 50 bucks to come, fury is not going to give 50 bucks to the period piece. You know, it's just like, it's just the it's there's no competition. And I learned that also from George Lucas, who said at the early days, that him Scorsese, Spielberg, malleus, the Palma Coppola, they were all at the gates, but they wouldn't be let in the studios wouldn't let them in. So instead of trying to beat each other up to try to get in like a crab, you know, pulling each other down, they all helped each other. They said, well look like out in the olden days, you know, the cavemen, they said, Well, you know, if we're by ourselves, we have a much less chance of survival. But if we group together, we have a much bigger chance of survival, and helping each other and then we can grow and become a stronger entity. And so itself, and that's what they did. And there's always competition, of course, but, but they help each other. So I've gone on, I've gone off on a tangent, Oh, okay. Sorry about that. But anyway, so that's how I've been able to build this up, I build up my Twitter account now just hit 14,000 followers. I'm over 12,000 followers on Instagram, my, my Facebook's around 1500. Because Facebook's really tough, unless you want to pay, and I refuse to pay. So it's a lot harder to get followers there. But even if you got a million followers, Facebook doesn't let you talk to them, because that's the way Facebook is. So um, I started going after other other areas. And then I got almost 1000 followers on and I think almost like 50 50,040 50,000 views on YouTube. So I did this all within six months. And then you know, my traffic for my site has grown and grown and more people are seeing what we're doing. But that was done literally by one guy who did a lot of research. I did a lot of work. I studied this whole thing, probably about a year before I launched. So that might just be age, because I'm not a young buck anymore. So I sit there and I kind of analyze things. And when I when I launched I launched hard I didn't launch like quietly like let's just build it up like no, I launched very hard and that's how filmmakers need to be you have to be aggressive, but you have to understand what you're doing. You have to understand this study the techniques and learn the craft. What you're trying to do so that's, in a nutshell how to build an audience, I'm actually going to probably going to create a course one day about how to how to do this, like, you know, I'm going to hopefully be doing that with a movie. You know, like actually take everybody through a process of actually doing that with an actual film itself. But, but I have been able to build up a pretty decent sized audience very, very quickly.

Just have to just got to study it, man got to study who you're going after, if you're a hoarder, if you're a horror guy making a horror movie, well, hell, man, there's a lot of horror fans out there. So go find them, build that audience up, do something cool, you know, and give them good content. People want to be entertained, it's kind of like Gladiator. Are you not entertained? Like they, they want to be entertained, they want good quality content, whatever that niche is, if you're a vegan chef, you know, and you're sell recipes. You know, give recipes away, you get people, there's, it's easy, it's not as hard as you think to build an audience. It's just giving them great free content, at first, to build that audience to build that trust to build that rapport. And then slowly but surely, you start adding more value to them with other content that you charge for would that be a movie t shirts, events, meet and greets, you know, you know, audio courses, mainly the books, you know, it's a million ways to then eventually monetize an audience. But first, you just want to, and you have to continue to give them free, great content and just build relationship. Solid is

Doc Kennedy 26:33
exactly did we just had to Ashley Scott Myers on selling your screenplay calm, okay. You know, he's got 10,000 people on his email list. That's awesome. And it's something that has taken a little bit of time, not everybody's gonna run out of the gate like you have Alex.

Alex Ferrari 26:49
Well, yeah, well, I'm not I'm look up like, like, yeah, okay, go ahead. Sorry.

Doc Kennedy 26:55
Same time. Well, now he's got this short film, or a feature film that he's producing. And he's using the email list that he's created to help fund some of that. And it's not just trying to take money from people, it's not building this list to be able to use them in that way. He's just given so much free content, like you have that people are absolutely willing to help him out with the project that's important to him.

Alex Ferrari 27:26
Absolutely. Absolutely. It's, it's, you're leveraging your audience. And but that's in a really good way. You know, I see this from you know, do you know, you know what, Tim Ferriss? Yep. Alright, so Tim Ferriss, he, he did a TV show that was supposed to air I don't know, CNN or something like that, for whatever reason, they shot 12 episodes of the TV show, which is him him doing, you know, crazy stuff, and kind of, you know, learning how to be a world class drummer in seven days and stuff like that. And watching the process of it, and that was a great show, but it was it never, I think aired twice, two episodes, and then they pulled it and then something happened and they just lost the rights to it. So he went after the rights to get it back because he's like, Look, I know I can monetize this. I know I can I know I can get this to my audience. I need the art my audience to see this. And he has a very big audience based on his book, The Four Hour Workweek, which every filmmaker on the planet should read it's amazing amazing book. And so he got that got it and he started leveraging his audience he's like Hey guys, I got a new show. Within a week he was the number one TV show on iTunes Wow. Because he but he has a huge audience that he's given you know, he's given so much free content out to and he's built this this wonderful fan base that people just and he started off with nothing as well like they don't understand the all the audio everybody in the audience has to understand. Everyone starts off with nothing. Everyone no one's born with an audience. Unless you're the Royals then even then you don't really care about the audience at that point because you know, you're just doing your thing. But generally no one starts off with with a big audience no one it you have to build it, you know, Kevin Smith has been a genius at giving his audience what they want. And he has built an industry around himself and around his not only his films, but about him around himself, which he can monetize much easier as a celebrity than he can as a director. And some people might, you know, might judge them for that and other people might not, but gotta give it to the man he knows what he's doing. And he leverages it leverages his audience constantly and his audience loves him for it I mean Same thing for I mean, if you want to go even deeper a trauma you know, trauma films is I don't, okay, so if you if you type in trauma tr, Mo trauma, trauma, trauma trauma films Lloyd Kaufman created and Lauren's gonna be on the show in a few weeks prior in a month or so I interviewed him he's been around since the 30s he made a movie that 30s he's been around for about 30 years, he made a movie called Toxic Avenger. Be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. Which is a classic and the 80s classic movie and he built an entire company around this kind of schlocky filmmaking which is so odd because he's such a classical Lee trained very intelligent man I found I found out but he makes you know Toxic Avenger to Romeo and Juliet you know so many different crazy movies but he built an audience around that he took he took Toxic Avenger and people started following about and then they they just started pumping out movies like this and he's built an entire business over the years about this process about how he was able to to to to mine his audience and give his audience what he wants that what they want and that's something a filmmaker needs to figure out they need to figure out who they are as a filmmaker as a person as a business person and then find their niche and then attack but in a good way you know just go after who wants to see your stuff? And it might it might be it might be the chicken meat them the chicken before the egg kind of scenario like I don't know what my audience is, but I like making these kind of movies I'm like well if you like making those kind of movies go find the audience to make those kind of movies or if you want to go after an audience find the audience first then make content for that audience you know, but don't try to be everything to everybody because you'll never you'll never make it it's just it's impossible it's impossible to do something like that and I hate to use the word impossible but if the studios with hundreds of millions of dollars can't do it you can't do that nobody can no one can be everything to everybody ever it's not possible this

Doc Kennedy 32:09
totally makes sense you know when you go to see a turn to you know film you know what you're getting,

Alex Ferrari 32:13
he's filled he's built an audience up he's built it up and he's built it up in a different way and then every every like Robert Rodriguez has an audience obviously. So does Tarantino so it's Kevin Smith but you know Tarantino Kevin Smith are two very different audiences but but they kind of overlap a little bit there you know, because I you know, I like Tarantino films, I like Kevin Smith films, so they kind of overlap a little bit, but the true fans of Kevin Smith and the true fans of Tarantino probably wouldn't hang out often. But Tarantino has built his audience around his movies. Same thing as Spielberg Spielberg has an audience that he's a brand so as Martin Scorsese, you go to see Mr. Scorsese movie you know what you're going to get generally you go to see a Spielberg movie, you know what you're going to get generally and it's only when, when filmmakers vary from what they're known for, is where that's when things become awry. So like when Scorsese did Last Temptation of Christ and Condon you know, which are not his standard stuff, people were like what's going on but then you know, after you do so many movies you could do whatever the hell you want. You know, Ridley Scott does a million different genres and stuff. So then that becomes your brand you just jump from genre to genre? So you don't go see a Western because they're in Tina, did you go see it? Because Tara Tina made it Yeah, and that's a brand and then you know, it's I can go on for hours about this.

Doc Kennedy 33:33
Well, so one of the podcast episodes It was early on that really turned me on to what you got going on here. Alex? It was talking about you have to move to LA to be successful. Yeah, share with us a little bit about that. And is it mandatory that you move to LA?

Alex Ferrari 33:50
No, what I said in the podcast I'll repeat it here but it basically I moved to LA because you know, I was in Florida, which is a smaller market obviously it's a it's a large filmmaking market, probably one of the top five in the country. But it was a small you know, is this about much smaller than la but I also stretches but I moved out here because I, you know, I just worried about LA and needed to be where the action was. So that was the difference for me. I came out here with nothing. I knew three people, just like launching into film bustle, I had a I had a Final Cut system and a color grading system, which were both the same. And I put it up in a second bedroom, and I just started going after work. And I started getting work. But I mind you I also had, you know, 10 years of demo reels and you know, work underneath me that I did in Florida, so I wasn't just a fresh kid. But But I was a nobody here and I just started doing good work and good work and good work. The thing about moving to LA or to a big market is that your skill level will grow faster, because you are around people who are doing this 24 hours a day, seven days a week. So you You can't walk into a Starbucks in LA, anytime of the day without somebody working on a screenplay. Like it's just prerequisite. I feel that if there isn't somebody I think Starbucks hire somebody to sit there and write a script. Because everywhere I go every time I go there's always a guy writing a screenplay or talking about a screenplay or talking about a story. It's just like it's it's so embedded in the culture here of La that you are around 24 seven so you're challenged when you work with certain people because they've just been doing it so long so you'll learn faster you start get you know, it's kind of like when you're a carpenter, you know, if you're, you know, you're at home whittling away on some wood and all of a sudden they throw you into like, I need you to carve, you know, a six foot statue, you're gonna learn a lot of things you might have not learned because you were just whittling away on a little piece of wood as opposed to go into this huge you know, Michelangelo's ask event you know a project Same thing happens here in LA now to say that LA is the only place now it might have been before but not anymore. New York is still a very big market. Atlanta has become a huge huge filmmaking market because of their wonderful incentives you know before was Louisiana for a little while before the incentives dried up Florida had incentives to but Florida has a really big production community as well. Austin has a pretty big you know, has a lot of pretty big community as well. But there's a handful there's not a lot of like big communities but la if I was if it if it were me today la New York, Atlanta, and possibly Miami because Miami is smaller now than Atlanta is or Georgia in general like Savannah and those places but I think those are the three right now and I and I'm sure a whole bunch of people around the country are well how about Kansas I'm like well, I'm not here at all a lot of stuff coming out of Kansas guy sorry Austin's also a very big filmmaking community as well but from what I understand and from people who go there it's nothing compared to LA is nothing compared to what Atlanta is going the amount of partners 26 feature films going on right now in Atlanta, like right now. So and a lot of them are big studio movies. So you know, it's those I do think that you should if you are a filmmaker go to wherever you are in your mum if you're in India you know go to where Bollywood is, you know if you're in England go where you know pine studios is I don't know where that the Mecca is London I guess you know, go wherever the Mecca is for filmmaking and set up shop and just start learning because you'll learn much faster I learned in a couple years here things that took me five six years to learn back home in Florida, it's just because you're just exposed to so many more experienced people and projects that you just wouldn't have access to, you just would not have access to so you're just kind of honing your skill at a much faster rate as opposed to just watching YouTube videos or taking courses online. Those are wonderful and they're invaluable but getting on a set you know walking on the set of 24 which I had the opportunity to in kind of watch what they're doing and you know work with some of those guys you just like Jesus man like you know you don't get this backhoe you know, where there might be one guy in Florida that has you know, he's the Big Kahuna as far as stents are concerned. You've got 400 guys out here who have you know, credits list down to your arm and you know, to work with someone like that is insane, which I had the opportunity to work with on some of my projects. So yeah, I say I say do it. But do it when you're ready as well because don't come out to LA or or New York or a big city. You know when you're 20 and just kind of wish and pray that something's going to happen.

Doc Kennedy 38:53
So I agree with that. 100% Yeah, because

Alex Ferrari 38:58
if it will, it will it will destroy you. Like I came out to LA I didn't I don't know if I said this in the show or not. But I came out to LA in 2001 trying to peddle my my little editing reel route. And the town eight min. Remember you're talking about my area in my the town ate me alive. I was so not ready. I had no plan. And I was completely eaten alive. And it took me another 676 years seven years to come back. But by then I'd already had a lot more stuff under my belt that was a lot older. And I came with a plan. A crazy plan. I don't know if you remember the plan it was it was crazy. But because I literally my you know my wife who was not my wife at the time, but we both came out here new three people got up got a room and in Toluca Lake or apartment in Toluca Lake, which is kind of like the right by Burbank by Disney and got a got an apartment, put up an editing system and I brought a whole bunch Have DVDs that I bought from going out of business Hollywood videos, and sell them on Amazon as a as a revenue stream, I got things going. So you know, and that's a whole other story. But that's the hustle. And that's, that's why I call it indie film hustle, because that was like, you know what we all hustle all the time. And why not? Why not call it

Doc Kennedy 40:20
Whatever it takes,

Alex Ferrari 40:21
You got to man, I mean, all these guys who've made it, you know, a lot of people see that a lot of people only see the overnight success, they only see the award, they only see that one box office hit, they don't see the 20 years about behind them, or the 10 years behind them, or the 1000s of hours that they've put into their craft, or into, you know, networking properly, or understanding what they're doing. To get to that point, it takes so much time to do to get to those certain levels. I think that's one thing that filmmakers, young filmmakers in general don't understand is they think that, Oh, I'm gonna put some stuff up on YouTube, and I'm gonna be huge. Like, it doesn't work that way it does doesn't, you have to understand your craft, you have to understand what you're doing, and really learn your stuff before you can make it big. And even then, there's guys who have 20 years of experience underneath you, and under underneath them, and they're still struggling to get noticed to get this that that, you know, so it takes a lot of work those 10,000 our theory is probably light, it takes many more hours than that to, to hone your skills in whichever way whatever. Whatever you want to learn, or whatever you want to do in life.

Doc Kennedy 41:42
And that and there's the value in surrounding yourself with people that have been there done that. That's a totally nother episode. But yeah. So as we kind of wrap things up here, Alex, you want to share with us just a little bit about what you're excited about this coming year?

Alex Ferrari 42:00
Well, this year, indie film hustle is, you know, I've that for I've worked so hard to get this, this kind of audience, I'm building this audience and building what what I'm doing with indie film, hustle. So I'm really excited that I'm going to be bringing a bunch of new stuff to the audience, because the audience has actually reached out to me, this eventually will happen once you start building your own audiences is that, like, Alex, we want? We want you to help us in this way, or help us in that way. And you know, I even get I even get emails like, how can I support you? Like, what can I buy something, I want to give you money, because they're so grateful for all the free knowledge in the free, you know, content, and I'm giving them the value that I'm giving them that they actually asked like, Where can I you know, what do I can I donate to you? Can I buy something? And then a lot of other people are like, Can you put a course together on really breaking this down? Or can you do a course about this? So that's what I started to do. I started creating courses for my audience, because in certain areas that I think people in our in our, in our business don't have, you know, if my basically my take on certain things, so I created filmmaking hacks how to shoot and market your film, because I think that's invaluable, it shows you goes through the whole process of how I did three films, I'm going to add my 44th film, and soon, it's a living course I'm always changing and adding stuff to it. And it's about nine hours long at this point. And it goes through how I made a bunch of my movies, commentary tracks from a bunch of different departments from all the movies as well. You get to see the movies as well in there and analyze what I did what I did what I did, right what I did wrong. I'm not saying that they're the greatest movies of all time, I'm not saying they're Oscar winners, they're just my movies. They're just what I did at that time, I look at some of the stuff I did in the past. I'm like, Oh, I'm sure but but with all artists, we all do that. It's just it's just the way we all are. So I created that course I had created another core course called Twitter hacks how to get 10,000 true fans in 10 weeks because it took me about 10 weeks to get 10,000 followers on Twitter because Twitter came along a little bit later and now I show you how to not only to get those followers but how to leverage those followers how to engage with those followers, how to bring them into your ecosystem, how to get them into your website and you know, start building the community around them because that's just another funnel of finding people you know, YouTube is another one you know, Facebook's another one, the podcast is another one, and so on. There's multiple different funnels that you can find that people can kind of come into your little ecosystem. So I created that course it's doing very, very well. I sell it now for I think we're selling for 97 bucks, but if you go to our site, you get it you can just click on it, get a coupon for 25 bucks. So it's invaluable, that's normal three, four hours long and it really breaks down. How how quickly. If you take that course you'll have $200 Within the first day or two, I have one guy who took it. And he doubled from 1500 to 3000, in less than a week, just by using basic stuff. And these are real people like these are real. Those are the thing. They're real people. They're people who are interested in what you're doing. They're not fake. I'm not telling you go by 20,000 followers. Now, these are real, real people that that you've taken time to build up and it takes time to build them up, but and then they become your army. That's the thing. That's the thing about building an audience is they become your army, they go out and evangelize for you. They retweet your stuff, they'll repost your stuff, they'll comment on it, and they'll kind of share it with their communities, and so on and so on in it. And I've seen stuff happen like I did, and I'm going off on a tangent, I apologize. But I saw the most controversial post I've done. Which do you do? Do you know which one it is? I can't pick. Yes. It's the 4k. Why filmmakers should not Yeah, oh, god. I've gotten a lot of heat from that. But I also got a lot of love for that. And basically, it's like why independent filmmakers should not shoot 4k is that it was a podcast and a post. And that one alone has been downloaded 35,000 times. Wow. As a podcast, that's insane for a for a podcast and our niche. Now mind you, not all of my podcasts get 35,000 downloads, I wish. But it's insane. That that's how popular became and I saw it virally just explode. Like, literally just went to digital. And I literally was watching it in real time. It was fascinating. I posted somewhere, then it would get shared five more times and then boom and boom, but and within the first day was just like an onslaught. It was like, my, my website almost crashed because I was getting so much traffic off of one really popular vote. And I wasn't doing it to like kind of clickbait or anything like that it was a really valid argument trying to help people. And the majority of people I want to say probably about 80 to 90% of people really understood what I was trying to say, whether they agreed with it or not. They understood and they validated. And then there's of course the people who were like you're an idiot, and I'm like, you're gonna get that in the world. It's I don't care, that's fine. But that's the that's the power of kind of like an audience. And when

Doc Kennedy 47:21
I know what I like about those people, they're saying, You're an idiot, they're still talking about you.

Alex Ferrari 47:24
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I learned that from Howard Stern. Because every you know how many people hate him, but they kept listening to them, just to see, just to see what you would say.

Doc Kennedy 47:36
So they'll tweet it out and say, This is stupid, you know? And then Oh, hey, there's my link.

Alex Ferrari 47:42
Exactly. So um, so I created Twitter hacks. And then I just created a new course, which will be out, I don't know where this is going to air. But we're hopefully going to have it out next week, which would be first week in February, called Film Festival hacks, which is a co co creation with Chris Holland from Film Festival secrets.com. Chris has been around in the film and Film Festival business for over a decade. And he's been behind the scenes. And then I have all this experience. And on the other side of the badge, as we like to call it with being in I've been, I've been my films are playing in probably almost 600 Film Festivals worldwide. So I have a very unique perspective on film festivals that way. So the combination of both of us in the same course talking about both perspectives of things is so powerful. And my God, I wish I would have had this course. Because I would have saved me probably the first 1000 books that I spent on broken sending up, you know, submission fees, and how how that whole magic happens and that kind of like dark art of like, Am I going to get in? I mean, I'm going to get in, is this the right festival? Are they just going to take my money? Are they even watching it all this kind of stuff. So we put this whole course together, it's about almost four hours long or a little over four hours. It's insane. Like it really, really is insane. And that one people can go to film festival hacks COMM And they'll get a thing for the first two weeks. They'll get it for 25 bucks after that, and then it's gonna go up. And then I have one other course that I have you ever heard of Michael Haig? Or Chris I have Michael Haig and Chris Walker.

Doc Kennedy 49:13
No, I can't do that. Have

Alex Ferrari 49:15
You heard of the writers journey? Yeah, that's the author.

Doc Kennedy 49:18
That's where I've heard.

Alex Ferrari 49:20
Yeah, the writers journey. Chris bolgar. And Michael hay who wrote how to write the exact title is writing screenplays that sell which has been around for about 20 years or so. And, and Michael and I kind of got together to do another course called storytelling and script screenplay and story secrets. The heroes two journeys, which is basically these two guys lecturing about their the hero's journey, which is the Joseph Campbell's story, and Michael heggs six stage process of story and combining them the two. It's an insane course it's about four hours, four hours long and they sit there for an hour. And break down Erin Brockovich, like, beat by beat. So we kind of joined forces to release this course. And that's going to hopefully be out as well next week on the on the first week of February. So we're going to be doing for indie film, hustle is going to be a one indie film hustle to be kind of a resource for filmmakers on affordable resource for filmmakers to get really insane training that they might not get anywhere else, and have access to training that they might not have anywhere else. And especially for people from around the world, not just the US. But you know, a lot of people who listen to me are in India, or in South Africa, or in Australia, or, you know, in England or outside of the US. And a lot of times, they just don't have access to the stuff we have here. So I want this to kind of be a worldwide access, I'm an indie film, hustle, be kind of a hub for not only great free content, but also really detailed education that they can really sink their teeth into and help. I just want to help at the end of the day, I want filmmakers to succeed. Man, I'm tired of seeing so many filmmakers get their asses handed to them by the business, which is the exact same, that's the first thing you read when you go to indie film, hustle calm, is that like I was just tired of seeing so many filmmakers get destroyed by the business that I'm going to throw my hat in the ring and see if I can help them out a little bit. And then one other thing, I have a big announcement that I'll be announcing in the next few weeks or so, a very big project that I'm going to be doing that will further educate the indie film hustle tribe, as I like to call them and do something that I have never seen done before. So I haven't I haven't announced it yet. And I've been teasing people for the last few weeks about it. And I've been getting emails, what the hell are you doing what you have to know, am I calm down, though, it'll come. So uh, you know, at the end of the day, I'm going to, it's going to be something that's going to really help a lot of filmmakers, as well as do something I think that no one has done in the way that we're going to do it. So that's, that's enough for 2016

Doc Kennedy 52:08
Thanks for leaving us hanging on the edge. And we're gonna play in common, but you can't know

Alex Ferrari 52:13
Exactly, exactly. And we're going to be doing, I have probably another 10 or 15 courses that we're planning to release this year, post production workflow and working on Instagram, one to help again, marketing and trying to get the word out a bunch of different kinds of courses that we're going to be releasing, and I'm in negotiations with a few other people to try to bring other content in as far as really high end lighting courses. And the camera course isn't breaking down a red camera and all this kind of stuff that I'm I'm currently in negotiations with because we're really trying to create a hub we're trying to, we're trying to change the world. But our little niche again, not trying to change everything, but just trying to change our world, which is independent filmmakers and really help them out from a truly humble place to kind of just let guys we just want to help you out here. I wish

Doc Kennedy 53:06
That you're you make a guy like me feel like it's doable.

Alex Ferrari 53:10
Yeah. And that's what I that's what I hope we could do. man that's, that's if I've done that. And I've gotten so much fan mail from people who said exactly that, like man, you've, you've changed my perspective on on this I after listening to your podcast, and reading what you do, I feel that I could do this, like I there's hope for me. And I really never knew that. Like I never felt that I was doing something that profound for people, I just thought I'm gonna click, I'm gonna give you guys some information. But when when you start helping people at that level, those are the kind of fans you want. Those are the kinds of people that you want in your tribe, because you're helping them at a big level and you want to continue to help them many years to come and continue to build that relationship to the point where you know, it they they become their own big thing because like look, you know, like like, have you ever heard of Pat Flynn? Yeah, well, Tim Ferriss wrote a book called The Four Hour Workweek. That book helped launch Pat Flynn helped launch john Lee Dumas from Entrepreneur on Fire launch up probably about another 10 or 15 juggernauts that are in that space. All because Tim Ferriss wrote that one book. And then so he's kind of the godfather of all these guys. And I hope I can do that for other filmmakers. I hope not that I'm as big as Tim Ferriss by any stretch but I hope in my small way that I can inspire other filmmakers to go off and just tear down the walls of the you know, the business and just go look, we did it a different way. We don't need the studio. Don't get me wrong. If a studio calls me tomorrow, like would you like to do spider man too? I'm like, Yes. Absolutely. Would you like to do a Star Wars movie? Absolutely. Let's go it out. I would, it would be wonderful. But when you're starting out, you don't have to lean on them. You can do it by yourself, you can go out there, make your movie, The technology is so cheap, it's so affordable, it's so powerful. If you take the time to learn the technology, if you take the time to learn your craft, there's no excuse. Now you can literally make a movie on your iPhone, like tangerine did, and release it. But let's say, you know, tangerine is a very unique example. But you can get a camera very inexpensively borrow a camera, you know, rent one, whatever, go make your movie, get a bunch of actors, write a great script, make a movie and sell it to an audience that's already waiting for what you want. And you can self distribute when you have to go through distribution anymore. And by the way, I actually had my film, which was called lipstick and bullets with a combo, it was a compilation of all my short films, plus all this kind of cool content that I was talking about. And I got it all back. I'm like, you know what, guys, you haven't done anything for me. I'm tired of what you're doing. Um, our deal is over, and I'm out. And I started selling it myself to my audience. And guess what I'm making money with it, you know, because I'm able to get it to the audience that wants it, they had no idea how to get it to the audience that wanted that content. And that's a problem with distributors, they do very much shotgun approach to things as opposed to niche approach. And that's the future niche, niche, niche niche, the riches are in the niches, and the riches are in the niches. And it's called show business for a reason. Because business is twice as long as the word ship to and I can't take credit for either of them, but we'll use them here because other people told me those those quotes, but I love them. They're great. The riches are in the niches, and the word business is twice as long as the word show. And there's a very specific reason for that. But you guys, whoever's listening to this, you have the ability to do it all You just have to educate yourself go to resources, like Doc's resource here, this wonderful podcast, go to our podcast, go to go to our sites reach go out that the informations there, you just have to do the work. And that's what a lot of people are afraid of doing is the work. But if you do the work, you can make it there's no excuse anymore. When I was coming up, you know how much it cost me to do my first demo reel 50 grand shot on 35 millimeter to do three commercials. You know what I mean? And I was in debt for I was in debt for years. Nowadays, I would have done 20 commercials for that, you know, shot on a red and I would have an insane reel. And I could have gone out and hustled that reel, but nowadays is a lot different than back then 35 was the only way to do it. There was no internet there. There was no anything like it was it was a different world. I know I sound like an old fart when you talk like that. But it's very it was just very, very different different place in the in the world at the time. So no excuse guys, you can do it. There's no question about it. I believe in you.

Doc Kennedy 57:56
That's awesome. Love that. Well, Alex, this has just been phenomenal. Now I could go on another two, three hours. I'm sure you could. No problem. We'll just have links in the show notes. And at Kennedy calm that link up with you. There's gonna be a mountain of show notes here. Link to everything that you were talking about as much as I can get in there.

Alex Ferrari 58:16
I appreciate that, my friend. I appreciate that.

Doc Kennedy 58:17
Yeah, if there's anything we can be doing for you. Besides the support, we're there for you.

Alex Ferrari 58:23
Spread the word, man. It's like a it's like a virus. We gotta we gotta you gotta be that outbreak, monkey, man. We got to get it out there. Ya gotta get the I'm sorry.

Doc Kennedy 58:32
We're that cowbell.

Alex Ferrari 58:35
Yeah, I need more cowbell. I definitely need more cowbell without question. Just get the you know and if it And last thing I want to say guys, if you don't get the information from me just go find or from doc or anybody go find it somewhere the information is there. It's so much good information out there. To go get and educate yourselves and learn there's books or videos. I mean, there's just a plethora of information out there that you can go and find what you need to make your movie and make not only make your movie, but plan out a strategy to maintain yourself as an artist and not just kind of put all your energy in trying to make a movie because that's not enough anymore. You have to build an audience you have to build a strategy that you can maintain yourself as an artist for many years to come. Because if you don't you just going to be one of the many filmmakers I see on the Boulevard of Broken Dreams here in Hollywood. And that that Boulevard very real by the way. I see I literally see them. It's a very, very rough place. So just plan things out and go after your dreams and don't let anyone stop you man. You have no excuse anymore. You guys, I hope you liked that one. It was a lot of fun cuz it was a lot of fun to talk to doc and you know, he's just starting out on his podcast. He launched it a little bit ago and he's just kind of rubbed that back up now. But he has a lot of great resources as well on his website. If you want to go to his website, head over to Doc kennedy.com that's DLC kennedy.com. And he's got a lot of good articles as well as his podcast, and he has a lot of good guests as well. So speaking of community, and speaking of getting out there and learning as much as you can about the film biz, I've created an online community for us to all kind of get together and interact with over on Facebook is a private group is the indie film hustle, private Facebook group. And you can, you can sign up for free at indie film, hustle, calm forward slash Facebook. And there you'll get first crack at any new materials and content that we're putting out. Because we posted there first before anywhere else, as well as interact with other people show your work off, ask questions, to direct line not only to me, but also to the rest of the community. So indiefilmhustle.com/Facebook. And as always, please head over to filmmaking podcast calm and leave us an honest review of the show. It really helps us out a lot. And thank you to all you guys who have done it, you guys have been giving us great reviews and great comments on the show. And I really, really appreciate it. It does help us out getting the word out on indie film, hustle and what we're trying to do, and help the film the indie film community out. So filmmakingpodcast.com. So guys, I also get a lot of emails from you guys still asking me what I can do to support you. And what we're doing here at indie film, hustle. And the best way you could do that is by visiting our sponsors, partaking in whatever they're offering. And then a lot of the courses and things like that that we create, as well. We're going to be coming up with a brand new film school and online film school that we're going to be launching hopefully in the next couple of weeks. And that's going to have all new courses, all new everything we're going to be giving a lot of free previews away for those as well on our YouTube channel, and just going to be a lot of great stuff. So with that said, Our second sponsor of the day is one of my favorite courses that we offer is the USC film schools only online course directing the actor by the legendary Nina Folch. This course is awesome. I took it I learned so so much about getting into the mind of an actor and understanding their language and Nina breaks it down so well not only for directors, but also for actors and understanding the craft of acting better so you can head over to indie film hustle.com forward slash USC and it's really cheap, something like 25 bucks. Online Course really, really well worth it guys, so definitely check that out. And as always keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 069: How to Make $500,000 Selling a No Budget DSLR Indie Film with Michael Polish

I’m always looking for indie filmmaking models to study. I like to analyze how other filmmakers make successful indie films while doing through a new DIY method, self-distributing their film or achieving critical and fan respect for their work.

Well, I found a film that checks all the boxes, For Lovers Only create by the Polish Brothers, Michael and Mark Polish (more on that film later). These filmmakers have been making films, on their terms, for over a decade now.

Since premiering at Sundance with their debut feature, 1999’s Twin Falls Idahothe brothers have remained steadfast in their commitment to creating personal, character-driven films.

Michael Polish, mark polish, the polish brothers, for lovers only Stana vatic, Canon 5D Mark II, no budget filmmaking

Michael Polish has created a filmography of critically-acclaimed features, including the karaoke-themed Jackpot (2001), the self-financed period piece Northfork (2003) and the sci-fi drama The Astronaut Farmer (2006). Yet the Polish brothers have always maintained a collaborative—as opposed to competitive—spirit when it comes to finding success in Hollywood

In 2005, he and his brother published the must-read book The Declaration of Independent Filmmaking: An Insider’s Guide to Making Movies Outside of Hollywood, a how-to guide for first-time filmmakers.

How to Make $500,000 on a DSLR Feature Film

How does one make money shooting a feature film on a DSLR? The film in question came from a screenplay that Mark Polish wrote more than a decade ago called For Lovers Only (Available on IFHTV)., about an American photographer who runs into an old flame while on assignment in Paris. The film follows the rekindled lovers around Paris, France in a series of quiet vignettes that gradually reveal more about the complications in the couples’ lives.

Related: DSLR Video Tips: How to Make Your DSLR Film or Video Look More Cinematic

Inspired by the guerilla-style of the French New Wave filmmakers of yesteryear, Mark and Michael Polish came up with a simple plan: they’d fly over to France with only a Canon 5D Mark II camera (which they already owned) and one actress (Castle star Stana Katic) in tow and just go out and shoot feature film. Oh did I mention it was in black and white?

 

With no budget to speak of, they went out into Paris and captured its stunning beauty for free. Additionally, shooting solely on a DSLR had quite a few advantages. Not only was the camera extremely portable, and allowed for filming in tight spaces (such as the small alcoves in French churches), it gave the film the level of intimacy it needed.

No-one stopped them since they were such a small crew and the camera was a still camera (with video capabilities) everyone thought they were a married couple simply on vacation.

Screenwriter and actor Mark Polish explained the process.

“It was me, Mike and Stana, and that was it. We shot for 12 days, and the whole point was to capture this really intense intimacy between the two characters.”

Most of the team’s hotels and meals were comped by their contacts and friends; their only expenses were food and a few taxis, but Mark and Michael Polish don’t consider that part of the budget since those charges would have been incurred if they took a vacation instead.

Michael Polish, mark polish, the polish brothers, for lovers only Stana vatic, Canon 5D Mark II, no budget filmmaking
Making of For Lovers Only (Available on IFHTV).

Michael Polish said that their hotels and some meals were comped; they shot and edited with the equipment they already owned; and they don’t consider the few grand worths of meals, taxis and the like to be part of an actual budget.

“There was not one dime that came out of our pocket specifically for this movie — besides the food we ate, but we had to eat, anyway.”

Now what makes the filmmaking story really interesting is the film made of $500,000 through self-distribution. Yup, that’s right. How might you ask?

Using Social Media to SELL!

Michael Polish was extremely smart for casting Stana Katic not only for her amazing beauty and talent but she also had a huge fan base from her hit ABC television show Castle. At Michael Polish’s request, Stana tweeted out to her over 67,000 twitter followers that the film was available on iTunes and word spread very quickly.

Related: How to Make a Feature Film for $1000 with Mark Duplass

Michael Polish leveraged not only his and his brother’s own social networks and also Stana’s. Katic’s rabid Twitter and Facebook followings spread the word.

Then Michael Polish found that the film’s #hashtag was drawing over 1,000 tweets an hour, he drafted up posters using the Twitter raves in place of critics’ quotes. Those posters went viral on Twitter and Tumblr, and further helped create an amazing amount of iTune pre-sales.

I can’t express to you enough that they created this enter film completely in the DIY, no-budget filmmaking process. From shooting it to marketing and selling it. This is a model that should be studied by all indie filmmakers. Now you can find the film on all the usual suspects of VOD (Netflix, iTunes, YouTube, Amazon & Movies on Demand via FilmBuff). Since he and his brother own the film, they keep all the profit.

Michael Polish sat down with me for an amazing interview about his filmmaking life, Hollywood and what it means to be an artist.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 1:42
So today's episode, man I'm so so so excited for this episode you guys are getting to get so much info and knowledge off of my guest. His name is Michael Polish Michael Polish is one half of the Polish brothers who are known for making some amazing independent films and films like northfork with Nick nulty, James Woods, Ben Foster, Daryl Hannah and a bunch of other movies There's a wonderful movie Roger Ebert called it a masterpiece. And it is wonderful to watch and the story behind that movie is even more impressive than the movie itself. They came out swinging with their first film, Twin Falls, Idaho, which was a independent film about Siamese conjoined Siamese twins, which is not the easiest thing to get financed. And they'll tell us stories about that, followed by jackpot. Again, North Fork, and then many other films like Big Sur starring Kate Bosworth, among others, but one of the reasons I really wanted to bring him onto the show is not just to talk about all his early indie indie work, but the specific film that I really wanted to go into with him is his movie called for lovers only. This movie was shot on a basically a zero budget. It was shot basically with him as a director, his brother as one of the stars. And the other star was staying at Kate tech from castle fame with Nathan Fillion on ABC. And this movie was has was shot first and foremost on a DSLR back in 2011. So they were kind of the first if not the first, feature film shot on a DSLR. They shot the entire movie in Paris, France. And Michael goes in deep detail about what kind of gear he used, how he was able to get into like amazing locations and cafes and things like that in France, without a permit without anything like that. So it's guerilla filmmaking at its finest. But that's all wonderful. And there's a lot of great stories about filmmakers who make these small, independent movies. But the wonderful thing about this one is that he actually made money and not chump change, bind you real money, they've reportedly have grossed over half a million dollars on a basically no budget film shot on a DSLR. It's one of the few films that have been shot on the DSLR that has made a lot of money. To my knowledge, I might be wrong. I'm sure there are others out there. But this is the one that I heard of. So please, if anybody knows of any other DSLR movies that have been made that have gone out and made money, please let us know in the comments. They were one of the first independent films to actually leverage iTunes and they sold the majority of that of all their sales on iTunes. They didn't make any big festival premieres or anything like that. They just kind of guerrilla did completely So he tells us the whole story I really asked him a lot of detail questions about how he was able to make that movie, along with all this other amazing gems of information. He was so kind to, he spoke to me for almost over an hour and a half. And I was just kept grilling him about questions. So he was such a pleasure to speak to. And just so giving of his time and of his knowledge and experience, he's been making movies now for God over 20 years, I think at this point. So it's been pretty amazing what he's able to do so without any further ado, guys, please enjoy my conversation with Michael Polish. I'd like to welcome to the show, Michael Polish. Thank you so much for being on the show, man.

Michael Polish 5:42
Appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

Alex Ferrari 5:44
So first question I'm going to ask you is how did you get that part in Hellraiser?

Michael Polish 5:49
Oh, man. You know, only only indie guru guys like yourself will ask that question. I've been asked that question maybe three times in my whole life. And guys that are very serious about cinephiles really understand. I, I was we were doing the movie Twin Falls, Idaho, we were actually researching makeup and how we were on those two, character two twins together. And Gary Tunnicliffe was the effects supervisor on that show. And in exchange for him helping us they asked us if we wanted to do a bit part in that Hellraiser. So sort of it was it was sort of a, you know, a trade. You know, and it was, it was great, because you got to meet Doug pinhead, and you've got to see how the movies are being made. And that's relatively low. We're low budget movies to that point.

Alex Ferrari 6:39
I was a sequel that was like, what the third sequel is? I'm like that was it? Yeah, it was Hellraiser bloodline. Right?

Michael Polish 6:43
Yeah. But my. And you, you got to see how long makeup sessions were in. And sort of how everybody got together to make something pretty, you know, pretty special in terms of you have a lot of people create, you know, do creating a movie that you don't necessarily get to see or hear about all the time.

Alex Ferrari 7:04
Right. And now when was that? That was what the 90s? Right?

Michael Polish 7:06
Yeah, that was the 90s. That was that was lesson three?

Alex Ferrari 7:11
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So let me ask you what made you want to become a filmmaker, you and your brother,

Michael Polish 7:16
I was. I was from, I was going to high school up in a small town suburbs of Sacramento. And I was fairly good at drawing. And I knew a lot, I was really obsessive about movies and watching movies. And from work. Remember, in the 70s. In the 80s, I saw just about everything that came out in the theaters. And I would see three or four movies a day, especially in air conditioning times, like the summer we'd probably watch for movies, and one, one complex. And then I didn't have the background in film, because there wasn't there was either super eight and seven, there were some 16 cameras around, but it's very difficult to get our hands in to get it all developed. So So what did I end up doing was applying to Cal Arts, which is just up in Santa Clarita with all my drawings and design work, and I and I was able to get into that school, right out of high school, and then get myself fluent in cameras and how it worked and how film works. So I didn't really get an education in filmmaking, but I was in an environment which had a lot of filmmakers in it.

Alex Ferrari 8:23
So you weren't on the track for because Cal Arts is kind of like a breeding ground for Disney is not

Michael Polish 8:30
yet true. And there are other bought other animation funding and a lot of their staff either worked for Disney or has connections to Disney. And it's a wonderful school for animation. It really isn't Pixar, when I was there was being born. And a lot of Pixar. A lot of Pixar, today's Pixar are the ones running the running Pixar on doing a lot of the films.

Alex Ferrari 8:51
They're very cool. So I first discovered you when I saw the film northfork many, many, many years ago what it's absolutely a gorgeous film, by the way. But when I did some research, I found out that the financing fell through a few days before Principal photography, is that true? Well, how did how did how in god's green earth did you get because that's not a simple little like a couple people in a room movie. That's a period it was a period of peace.

Michael Polish 9:16
Yeah, the sets are being built. And you find yourself you're you're find yourself when you're making a movie and financing false true that it's it's not that uncommon when you're a filmmaker. And that happens, you probably should figure out if you survive that you're going to be when a group of really good filmmakers that have had this happen to them. You're in pretty, you're pretty, you're pretty in a pretty good class when that happens. However, when we were we were up there for about four to four to six weeks, and every set was being built so we had money being spent, but the second, or the third round of money that is supposed to land never, never really landed. And so we stretched what we could into the first week of principle but By the second by the second week, we were just out of out of funds. And so we were having everybody's kind of scramble for money and we ended up borrowing money from, I ended up buying a couple hundreds of 1000s of dollars. That's an and in getting the movie finished, I just, we just got the movie in the can, it was new, we couldn't even get the post. And so what we ended up doing was borrowing that money coming flying back from Montana, cutting a teaser trailer that was a little bit longer and then started to show a very rough cut. And we showed it to Sony classics, which was the was the they released jackpot they released Twin Falls, Idaho, their first previous features, and Paramount classics was in Miramax and those those Paramount was having a really good run. And we went and showed Ruth fatale who was running at the time, and she put an offer on the minute the movie ended and, and actually paid exactly what the movie cost and then some and so we were able to finish the movie with without having that sort of stress of, of, you know, try to pay that person back. And and it was a remarkable time. And it was a remarkable time a very stressful time but but in the sense of making a movie that we actually want to see on the screen is it was intended that it was intended and for me is one of my favorite experiences regardless of financial.

Alex Ferrari 11:34
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, the for everybody who has not seen that movie. I mean, it has an insane cast with McNulty and James Wood. So I mean, it's like it's not only that you financing fall through on your independence, it was it was an independent film, right? Basically,

Michael Polish 11:49
It was I believe, we finished and then we got home for about 800 that I think we've paid about 800,000 at that point, and then we finished it for one, I would say roughly between one four and one seven, we ended up yeah. Yeah, no, no, no. To 30,000. To do Yeah, she doesn't just do we found it yesterday was released. And it's and you know, ironically, how I'm accepting the golden thumb award that Roger Ebert gives out post Roger Ebert next week, because it was one of his favorite movies. So yeah, and that, yeah, that was that was when we permitted at Sundance, we permitted at the big theater echoes and does it I don't know if there's 1000 people can fit in there. Maybe 1200. Yeah, and we, I remember, when you have to present it, and we come up, I came up after and it was dark, and the lights come on, and not a single person moved in. Oh, god, this is just it is. This is a disaster. And I'm just standing there No. And I see this big your walk in the middle of the front and back in the back in the theater, come up, walk up the stairs, and it was Roger Ebert. And he comes up on the podium. And just as we have breakfast with me in the morning, talk to us. It's a great episode. I was so shocked. And then then once he did that everybody started raising their hands.

Yeah. Yeah, he was. He's done that a couple times in my career. That's why I have a fairly good relationship with Him. And I've had a great relationship with him because he was he was such a film fan. And he also protected the people and helped usher people and filmmakers that, that he thought that needed other people to understand what they were doing. And he did that he would even tell you that if you missed the target, he thought a couple of movies submit the target, but he said I can't wait to see what you do next.

Alex Ferrari 14:10
That's a very impressive budget for that kind of period. Peace movie. I mean, even even back in the night with that, yeah, back in the night. 2000. So 2000s. So coming from an indie world because you definitely are, you know, definitely it's all up until astronaut farmer. You had never worked with a major studio. So what was that transition from complete control to do whatever you want to working with the studio? How was that experience?

Michael Polish 14:39
You know, we started with Warner independent, which was having fairly much a distributor on board to do that astronaut farmer as sort of a pseudo independent is especially in the early you know, in the mid 2000s, early 2000s, especially in the late 90s where studios were trying to land grab these before they were being made because they didn't want to get into these bidding wars, there was a few, many majors that were setting up and doing their own productions so they wouldn't have to go to Sundance or go out in the world and bid for these for these movies, because it was just getting very, very expensive for them, it'd be easier for them to make these ideas. So we went to mark Gill who came over from Miramax and he started wanting to order independent pictures on independent productions and it was called whip. And we knew Mark from the days when he wanted to do to Twin Falls, Idaho. And when we made it with weapon we did this movie it was more money that we've seen to make a movie, you know, we had to build a rocket and we wanted to do effects and luckily there was a studio executive way whose name was john Jimin, Jeff Robin off and Jeff was able to really usher in filmmakers and he was he was corralling a lot of early talent, like Christopher Nolan's and, and people like them, the Hughes brothers. And he found that me and me and Mark could probably do something special with the Astro farmer. So our relationship with with Jeff and Mark made that movie happened. And what was understanding with Jeff was, he said, basically, if you see me down in New Mexico, and you're feeling ever problem if you don't see me watch the movie when you get back. And yeah, and I found in recent years, I found Warner Brothers at that time, are really working with something that they're proud they really don't have. They don't have a lot of say they would, they don't have a lot of finger touching and figuring, you know, kind of the minutiae of everything. They want to see what you do. And if there's a problem, they're going to they're going to step in, at least that was my experience with Jeff. And I, and that was way easier than any independent ever made. And because you had you had the, you had the vision, they had the financing for it. And I think Jeff left a legacy at Warner Brothers to prove it. Prove that very, very, right. Yeah, it was jack. And when Jeff was with with Warner Brothers, it was it was a very special time because we saw a lot of, you know, we saw them work with spike Jones. And every, every he just knew how to curl this. This class that was coming in, I say it was about 9097 to 99. In 2000, he was getting these filmmakers to come to Warner Brothers. Yeah, yeah. I

Alex Ferrari 17:41
know, for world, it's a different world than that than 97.

Michael Polish 17:45
Different it's a real different time and their idea of, of not being so eclectic. Right, exactly,

Alex Ferrari 17:53
is what we're saying. And it's, it's a shame because I mean, I grew up we're both similar vintages. So we both kind of grew up around the same time period. So I remember when Disney and Warner's they would put out a $10 million movie or a $15 million movie. And, you know, and those comedies like downtown Beverly Hills back in the 80s. Like what about Bob and those kind of movies and they just don't exist anymore. There's just like, either it's, it's, it's under 5 million, or 100. It's like rare to see anything else?

Michael Polish 18:26
Yeah, they, they really put that Vegas mentality of betting, betting big all the time. You know, that nickel, the nickel and dime a business they just got away from which, you know, it's understandable when you're running a corporation, but it's not understandable when you're a filmmaker.

Alex Ferrari 18:41
Right? Exactly. And I think, you know, I think Batman vs. Superman is probably one of those examples right now that they've bet the farm on it. And they're, they'll do okay, at the end of the day, but I don't think it's what they expected it to be. It's not paying off. It's not paying off exactly the way and what Spielberg said, you know, the implosion of the Hollywood system, like, you know, if a studio can only do Imagine if Batman or Superman made, you know, $100 million, like it would cripple it could cripple a company could it could shut down a studio, and he says a few more of those happen. And it will I think it will happen. Do you agree? I mean, at one point or another, someone's going to make enough mistakes that you know, it's gonna

Michael Polish 19:19
I would have, I've always said when when was $100 million? Something that was a bad thing.

Alex Ferrari 19:27
Like, they would be extremely upset if 100 million if you made 100 million?

Michael Polish 19:32
Yes. When was when was $100 million? It failed, right? Well, when it costs 400. And that and then you have to look at the people that are doing the finger pointing that goes back to the person that's spending the spending the money that you know, having, you know, having said that, you look, you you look at some of the films that do require a lot of money to make, like the Martian. That was was spectacular look at and it was it felt like we were you know it felt like that experience of travel and even the movies like Lawrence of Arabia just thought you were there

Alex Ferrari 20:08
I mean Blade Runner Blade Runner to I don't want for $5 million. I want I want $150 million in that movie you know without and you know and let Ridley do what he does. You know that's

Michael Polish 20:20
yeah and you I mean he looked at Fury Road and you see every every penny on the screen and and more so because it pays forward in a way that is an experience that all the Mad Max films did. They gave you a world and they gave you made you pay attention to another world.

Alex Ferrari 20:40
Absolutely. And that's a fairy. It should be called Furiosa. Yeah, yeah. Max says like five words the whole Yeah. But the thing that's most amazing to me about that specific movie now we're just geeking out for a second but the thing that's the most amazing about Mad Max is that this whole younger generation had no idea that I think what a 70 year old plus director made that and he is his hip and visually stimulating as any younger director out there if not more so.

Michael Polish 21:09
I believe I believe it later. He's you know that's those are the films that got me into filmmaking was the ad Max, the original that was coming out of Australia. I watched what HBO just was a brand new home box office channel and there was two of them. I think it was no there's three it was Showtime, Cinemax, Cinemax, and HBO. And they showed Mad Max probably six times a day. I watched it. And then

Alex Ferrari 21:37
the other times they were playing Terminator. And yeah.

Michael Polish 21:41
Yeah, they ended up and what was fascinating was, how much I learned, you know, it was basically a no man with no name situation going into this world, which is very surgically only. And that's, I would have to say, you know, and then I watched the curve, I really watched the group of Mel Gibson and what he was doing because he ended up turning out to be a wonderful filmmaker.

Alex Ferrari 22:05
I mean, Braveheart and, and even the other one he did right after

Michael Polish 22:09
Apocalypto

Alex Ferrari 22:10
is no, that's the one.

Michael Polish 22:12
Oh, Apocalypto is a feast it is

Alex Ferrari 22:15
a visual feast that movie and a wonderful wonderful wonderful stuff. So so it was an ask you you've worked with some legendary actors. What advice would you have for directors when they are working with very seasoned actors?

Michael Polish 22:32
Listen they've been there they've least listened to their stories of they've either been in the shot you want to do or know the shot you want to do you have acted in the movie like and so you're able to gain a lot of knowledge before you pull the trigger with these guys and or girls these these actors are all well seasoned that I've worked with before and I continue to work with a lot of even young talented actors that mean you treat in this that you everybody treated shows them while you listen to what's going on and then you're able to direct because if you start just shooting around just gonna just make a bunch of you're just gonna make a bunch of holes you know dealing with Nick naughty on in James was extremely two different types of actors extremely two different types of personalities. But yet they both have an incredible presence on screen and are able to demand your attention and if they trust you and what you're doing to walk in it's it's a walk in the park

Alex Ferrari 23:34
it's only a difficult thing when they don't trust you.

Michael Polish 23:37
Yeah, if an actor doesn't trust you in any level you're gonna have a hard time

Alex Ferrari 23:41
exactly and the more seasoned I think probably more difficult the situation might be

Michael Polish 23:47
because they've seen you know they've they've seen it all you know with with most filmmakers The first thing you hear with these younger filmmakers or people that are just trying out they usually say I want to I want to do something that's never been seen before I want to do something has never been seen before. Or I want to put the camera here because there's no cameras probably put in every single hole and every mouth and every year and every building and skyscraper there's every shots been made so do the shot that's going to tell the story correctly.

Alex Ferrari 24:17
Absolutely. Well I was gonna ask you like on the first day of set is there anything you do special when you walk on and like because I mean I know every every movie is a new adventure. So is there a thing you do a ritual because I know Coppola. I've read somewhere that he does like some sort of like a bonding experience with the whole crew and does a whole they eats meat he makes a meal for everybody and stuff like that. Is there something that you do specifically to kind of get this whole adventure off and running

Michael Polish 24:46
there's nothing specifically I've done because I've known a lot of these a lot of my crews since we were coming out of Cal Arts. With the actors I what I try and do is keep it fairly light and not in don't think I'm going to paint this very Heavy with them the very first day is just to show them that they're in really good hands. And I might think of maybe coming with a prayer next time?

Alex Ferrari 25:08
Well, I think I mean, is there any advice about making of an actor feel safe? Because I know that's a big thing with actors, they want to make sure they are in good hands, is there something that any advice you can give directors to kind of give that energy out?

Michael Polish 25:24
I always, you know, I think every director has a special way of communicating with their actors. And some are very, some some directors or actors, and some, they can express and I think if you can articulate exactly what you want in a meaningful manner, then that they can really get what you're saying, and not get too metaphorical with them. in certain ways, I tend to let the first take first or second take be what they what they want to see or what they feel their initial because they've been practicing on their own, or they've had rehearsals, they've come in with their whole, you know, their whole, their whole deck of cards that are going to show you and what your job Your job is to do is render down to see what hands you like, and, and that's speaking in metaphorical terms, what you don't want to do. It's just, you know, I always I always find other ways to explain how to, to communicate. And sometimes you have to use different ways of communication or different methods. But most of the time, I like to see the actor performing. And I trust what they're going to do, because that's, that's their job, and they're really good at it. And they're going to, they're going to try and make the best decisions they can make at the moment when you're filming.

Alex Ferrari 26:41
Now do well, let me ask you a question. They say never to work with family. But But not only do you work with your brother, but you also work with your wife. Right? How do you make working with both of them work?

Michael Polish 26:57
Trust, there's a big trust factor that we're in, we're in this business, business is family and we fall in love with the business and, and in the, in the interpretation when we create, we trust each other that we have chose best interest when they're performing or when we're writing or when we're directing. You want to you want to make sure that that we're all on the same page. And it's a shorthand when you have family that doesn't mean that there is not going to be conflict I find I find less conflict with my wife just because I have to

Alex Ferrari 27:37
go politics I'm married to my friend it's all politics.

Michael Polish 27:39
I have to I had to define the mascot because you

Alex Ferrari 27:44
don't go home and lie down next to your brother at night. Yeah.

Michael Polish 27:47
Yeah, I'm not I've only been tied to him once. Yeah, I was actually tied in once and you know, through the years we haven't done a lot of projects together in the past five years just because our careers took different shapes and shadows and colors. And so I work mainly more with with Kate now, just because I'm finding that you know, I've always loved the leading ladies, I've always loved women that can do leading roles. And I'm really fascinated just like Hitchcock was and all the other human Fincher and all these. You find that if I you know if I want to go down that route with with Kate, I find it really, really educational for me,

Alex Ferrari 28:33
right? I mean, she's a wonderful, wonderful actress. I mean, and then you have earn, what was funny that you have when you were shooting Big Sur? Yeah, I was. And I don't I couldn't believe this. But I literally was driving up the coast. And I saw the film crew on the side by the beach. I'm not I'm not kidding you. Cuz I mean, I mean, I live in LA so I always see film crews everywhere. But we were driving through Big Sur we were going all the way up to Napa Valley for a little vacation, a baby moon with my wife before our kids or my twins were born. And and we look I look over and I'm like, Oh look, there's a film crew. And I'm like, it's not like a little film crew. There's, it's a real film crew. And I was like, I wonder what movies being shot up here. So I later looked it up. I'm like, Oh, it's called Big Sir Michael polish.

Michael Polish 29:22
We were up on the road. We were probably doing some of those scenes where they were driving up and down. Because we were you got us on the day. This bright three days. We were actually on highway. One. We were in Big Sur for weeks. We were out we were down in the canyon for weeks. But being on the road, maybe three days,

Alex Ferrari 29:40
right. I saw I thought the cameras like Well yeah, I think they were I think maybe getting some ocean shots or

Michael Polish 29:45
Yeah, we were praying near Bixby bridge.

Alex Ferrari 29:49
Yeah, it was. It's just it's just ironic. It's funny.

Michael Polish 29:54
Right? I should have stopped by I wish I could. I wish I could

Alex Ferrari 29:57
have uh, we were on our trip to Napa and last thing My wife was gonna go like I don't want to go to another set right now I

Michael Polish 30:04
don't want to go another set essentially are set because we were really living like beings at that point

Alex Ferrari 30:12
so one of my favorite films you've done is for lovers only. I absolutely love that movie and it gave indie filmmakers hope that anyone with a good story and a camera can make an amazing film.

Michael Polish 30:24
So that was a that was a that was a very very fun movie to make

Alex Ferrari 30:28
I mean so it can you please fill in the fill the audience in on how the film came to be and the unique process in which you shot it. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Michael Polish 30:47
But the Mark and I were talking we were we were doing movies back to back with fairly big budgets and it was I think it was 2009 when economically films were being funded the way they were used to independence are usually funded from outside the studio space and you're finding fund film funds are drying up we wanted to you know we already aligned ourselves with a couple studios and we are writing screenplays at the moment but we weren't making anything and we always had this idea to do a black and white movie or just a French New Wave Titan cinematic experience was which was sort of our tour we are we travel a lot through Europe for all of our movies and we thought maybe France would be great to shoot in and he said well we have this idea I said let's not spend a lot of time trying to make something spectacular because we're not going to have a huge budget if we all shoot it all shoot it and I'll direct it and we'll make it a two hander you and we'll find another girl so we had this story he had an idea of a story of having a love of current Paris and I said well let me get you continue writing all go to Paris and I'll be there for four weeks and I'll scoop it all out and I'll get all of the fine locations so as a sort of a tandem act going on he was here in LA writing and I was in in Paris looking at stuff and I had the Canon five D was fairly new and it was being having the video component component on it was doing doing the work that most people were shooting small commercials on or you were looking you were just seeing the birth of this DSLR right that's yeah that's gonna happen what I found was if you were using cinema lenses they're a little too big and they weren't mount they were having to do another mount and I didn't I really didn't feel like carrying on those type of lenses so I went in and found these Zeiss lenses that were had the nice focus pool but they were smaller likes very short lenses and I was looking at a 15 millimeter and and I went to when I went to Paris I was going you know this deal they look great but there's something not quite right about it. And when I turned it to black and white the grays were very light and milky and and I go well if this is the way it's going to look I'm just going to try and figure this out. So I remember driving around Paris and stacking filters like threes and threes and sixes and nines on these I was just making the most dense image I could make and black and white I was going back to my hotel room and playing this back I go wow we're starting to get to a real black and like it very easy black and white. And I think we're gonna get somewhere in and um and so I called up Mark and I said I'm ready. I'm gonna send you a clip of Paris with a shot and you just tell me what you think. And he said, okay, he watched it he goes okay, I'll be over there next week. And he said yeah, but we need a girl on Star Academy who is on castle came in and we spoke to her and she was I get off those show in like two weeks and I'll come over and that's basically how that was done. We didn't tell him Mark gave her the script on the plane.

Alex Ferrari 34:15
How did you pitch her he said How did you pitch indigenous? No Are

Michael Polish 34:19
we she was at the same agency we were at

Alex Ferrari 34:23
are we we were but how did you did you know or did you reach out to her? I forget what agency we're at. We're at the same

Michael Polish 34:29
same agency they will give us a list of actresses that will wouldn't be willing to actually actually was they're not going to read the script you're going to go to Paris with the Polish brothers and that's it basically that's what's really it's about so whoever walked in whoever walked in whoever walked in that room was really really brave and she was one of them that said I choose so many moving northward and I would do you guys want I'm just gonna get you know I'm gonna she's very polite and very genuine about it. And and when Mark and Her got on the plane he handed her the script and I'm I was already in Paris and so when they landed with the minute they landed we started rolling and we did it. I shot the film and we were at night we were doing which they ended up naming it which we didn't have an idea was you just download we just download

Alex Ferrari 35:22
it. Download it right? Yeah, you weren't. We weren't

Michael Polish 35:25
in here we were just we were just I was downloading at night giving my SD cards arrest walking around Paris and we ended up circling the whole country of France we ended up going to send Michelle all the way down to what you do in the morning call her when can and nice and and we did all that within we did think we did it in 12 days.

Alex Ferrari 35:48
Jesus that's a hell of a hell of a beatnik pay.

Michael Polish 35:51
Yeah, it was it was a heck of a ride because we had motorcycles and cars and it was just me and Mark it's Donna. The majority of the time when we were driving around and then I had an assistant named Sean O'Grady who was carrying basically carrying a backpack and and the sound equipment

Alex Ferrari 36:10
Yeah, I was gonna ask you this with as far as sound is concerned, did you did you patch it directly into the camera or did you record it on a location recorder

Michael Polish 36:18
both depending on the environment I did just pretty much a scratch track onto the camera as much as possible because I knew even though it was tinny and the highs and lows are not so good there was a medium range that if they didn't get excited, we were able to get some some pretty nice dialogue that we could work with. I would say the film The film ultimately suffered with with some sound but then it also gave it a feel about authenticity. You know, it wasn't it wasn't great, I would say now if we're if we were to do that again I would just do a to system you know all the way around and just have it have somebody who was mixing them mixing the sound as we were going along but then it but then again I wouldn't say that would preclude anybody that's listening not to go do it and put it on your camera

Alex Ferrari 37:07
right it just it yes go especially with the whole mumble core and that that whole generation of filmmakers that just come out and just like let's just go shoot something Yeah. Now did you with in did you do audio post production at all?

Michael Polish 37:22
Yeah, we did it with a friend of mine that was that was his dad did northfork and Ascot farmer and did Big Sur do a lot of my recent movies and he was able to take the tracks and clean them up on his own time because we weren't we weren't paying anybody so he was he would take the tracks and spend time cleaning them up and he would do his passes on it and he also got some students to help with him to do it that we're learning sound at the same time and yeah, and you know we had a composers name was qubee whose name is kool aid you know, I went to Cal Arts with them and he did some work on with films before so he was able to bring in really classical classically trained musicians to put down tracks in his in his house so he could double up a cello he could do trumpet and I found that to be whenever when all the other crew members and all the other special positions that we're doing on the real talented people they pull they pull good I did which is what their people you know and that and I feel that that's that's a collective and it's also it works when when you're filming people that are going to do what you do what you can review

Alex Ferrari 38:31
what was the equipment just listed off like the lenses the camera the tripod?

Michael Polish 38:37
By took my tripod genius I needed Boba Fett

Alex Ferrari 38:42
you were Star Wars fan then.

Michael Polish 38:44
Yeah, it was just so it this thing was tough. And it was like a kubaton it was like a stealth It was a monopod that I used to do the whole movie but at the bottom of the Mondo pad. It had a chicken foot, you know it had three, three prongs on it. But mainly it could stand there by itself and you wouldn't see it as a traditional tripod. And so you could take the chicken foot off and keep it as a monopod. And this thing was a savior I still I shot with it this last week and I was I was in Hawaii and I was shooting some some surfing stuff and I think it's had its day I kind of might have to put it to rest.

Alex Ferrari 39:22
I retire it put it in the office,

Michael Polish 39:24
I would say Boba Fett was my thing. And I kept me as a cane and kept me going through things and and i i had two bodies that to camera I had to five DS but mainly I would say 90% of that movie was shot on Zeiss 50 millimeter lens. very wide and it could go in you could tuck it up pretty close. I did have an 85 which was probably stone as close ups and mark over the shoulders and similar stuff from Marcus Donna was 85 it was as close as I got with an 85 And then the 50 was basically at 550 that resides that I carried around basically,

Alex Ferrari 40:06
but they were photo lenses or they were cinema lenses. They were

Michael Polish 40:09
photo lenses, but they but Zeiss made these cinema lenses but they weren't those huge suckers that were thinking now they were. I mean, they've looked, what's the difference is is that they have focal points focal marks. So you're able to actually see when you pull.

Alex Ferrari 40:28
Oh, yes. So the focus is on the side down on the top. Yeah, like photography, it's in, you can see them,

Michael Polish 40:34
but they look exactly like agafay lenses and, and so we ended up doing that, and that was a lot that was that was basically one photo backpack that was a backpack that carry my, it was small, but the length probably about 24 inches tall, maybe less. And I put everything my clothes, everything. And then when I carried that around. For 12 days, I was back on a plane on the 13th day. I mean, I was already there for four weeks scouting it out. But it what was nice about being in France was going into cafes and shooting scenes. I

Alex Ferrari 41:16
was gonna ask you like what's like some of the ridiculous locations you got? Because you were just in them. You just look like a couple, you know?

Michael Polish 41:22
Yeah. It was I always said, I always said I was falling around for their wedding video, if anyone asked. Yeah, I would say they're getting married. And we're doing this video because a lot of relatives can't come to France. So

Alex Ferrari 41:34
that's how you stole locations. I love it.

Michael Polish 41:37
But, but because at that time, that camera wasn't even flagged for having a video or component and would take your degrees enough to shoot a movie on that thing.

Alex Ferrari 41:50
Like no one knew no one knew you were under the React.

Michael Polish 41:54
You know, I still believe that the five D gets away with a lot more stuff, too. I mean, you could probably still pull a few levers off the same way. Yeah, just yeah. And then the sensitivity to that camera as opposed to video cameras. two different worlds to deal with the common person that sees what we're doing. So basically, it was it was it was to answer your question. efficiently is, it was two bodies. two lenses. backpack and a tripod. Yeah, the monopod

Alex Ferrari 42:32
No, yeah. Oh, yeah. Cuz it looks like it's like just still camera.

Michael Polish 42:36
Yeah, we had Forgive me because I don't have the name of it. But it's the cross. You know, it's the it's the, it's the mic. It's a book that has the tube didn't matter people gonna say they're gonna say God damn as dumb as like, you know, talking about is like, the fact is, I know what I know what I see. I don't know the words on the on the machine

Alex Ferrari 42:59
then as far as audio is concerned. You had I saw a picture that you had a mic plugged into the

Michael Polish 43:06
that was the recorder that we were we were doing it on these. They were actually the small SD SD cards that were putting sound

Alex Ferrari 43:14
recording on the SD card.

Michael Polish 43:17
Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 43:18
You guys are really just, you mean just threw caution to the wind on this one.

Michael Polish 43:24
Yo, yo, yeah. Yeah, it

Alex Ferrari 43:27
must have been an adventure and a half.

Michael Polish 43:30
Yeah, brilliant when it's really done as in the theater. But before that, you're just you're building the roller coaster.

Alex Ferrari 43:36
Now with the screenplay was a lot of it. Was it all written out? Or was there a bunch of improv during that process?

Michael Polish 43:42
Say 75% of the 70 to 75% of screenplay was written, okay. The other 25% was, you know, like, when they're like putting on makeup in that hotel, or they're going out to drink a party, like going into other people's rooms and exit. That was all that was done on site. And then

Alex Ferrari 44:02
you just found it in the Edit.

Michael Polish 44:04
Yeah, we found in the Edit we, we were, we had a lot of footage like them hanging out. We'd be in hotel rooms waiting to go downstairs to do a scene and they'd be sitting in the bathtub or they would be looking at the view or just hanging out. We basically follow two people in love around Europe. I mean, we around France, and we were able to they were so in tune to what they were doing it they were on vacation, and I was just documenting it.

Alex Ferrari 44:34
Yeah, they seem to have an insane amount of chemistry. Yeah. No, it was wonderful to see.

Michael Polish 44:41
They didn't. They didn't understand that there was a camera and following and

Alex Ferrari 44:46
they were just there. They were just enjoying it. When I watched the movie, it's almost surreal. The whole process, the whole imagery, the the whole everything the the way that the almost I want to use the word ghostly, With surreal, dreamlike, they're like very, very dreamlike in the sense of the way it was percept that like the way it was shot and just the energy of it. I feel not to compare the movies but Eyes Wide Shut. How has that dream like surreal vibe. They're very different movies. But that I just said was the only film that came to me. Now with you did this amazing production you you push the envelope you were like the first feature to ever be made on a five D or one of the first?

Michael Polish 45:33
Yeah, one of the first I'd say we're in, we're in that we're in that discussion of being present based It was released as one of the first

Alex Ferrari 45:42
which was brings me to my next question. You are one of the first independent films that I know of to take full advantage of the VOD and digital distribution platform. Was that part of your plan? Was there a plan?

Michael Polish 45:55
Well, there was a, there was a plan that we wanted to make a movie without restrictions, meaning, we didn't feel like we had to go sell this movie at the end of the day or go have distributor meetings. Although that would, that would be great, too. I mean, we all intend to make our movies to be on the screen and we all compositions are to be on the big screen. However, when we thought of doing this, this five deep movie, we thought, you know, we can make something intimate that you could just watch it on your iPad. And you could be anywhere and it could we could just fly it out to wherever you're at. So this movie would have a small run anyways, maybe a 510 city theater and nobody would see it. So why don't we just make a deal with an iTunes or a VOD and zap it out to everybody?

Alex Ferrari 46:40
And this was 2011. Yeah, it was.

Michael Polish 46:45
I think it was 2009 when it came out, right? Yeah, but we didn't do that the deal was done in 2010.

Alex Ferrari 46:51
Right? So 2010 and 2016. For VOD online is still it was a very different world, not nearly as many options. But iTunes was around and iTunes was just starting to kind of ramp up.

Michael Polish 47:04
Yeah. Yeah. It had, yeah, didn't have a lot of on their catalogue. But they were showing, I think things that were associated with Apple, or maybe things or shows associated with Disney, that everything was going digital. They were they were we gave them the specs. And they took that they took the movie. And it was it was nice, because we got invaded by all the fans that heard about the movie,

Alex Ferrari 47:31
right? So how did that whole work like how did you how did you get the word out on the film? Like how did you mark it? Stannah had

Michael Polish 47:36
a really big following in, in Europe, especially Eastern Europe, there was some festivals being played. And so we sent the film to a Polish festival and a couple of them forget the other festivals, and we didn't even show up. But I believe Donna went to one of them. And it was the reverse effect. Worried was coming out of Europe that this French New Wave was coming to the United States, starring her. So all her fans built this huge, huge following for the film. So when it opened here, people heard about it already.

Alex Ferrari 48:12
Wow. So was the reverse marketing campaign

Michael Polish 48:15
first marketing without truly knowing and audience that she had wanted to see her do a feature monitor to see her in this feature film.

Alex Ferrari 48:23
I'm a big fan of Stan. I mean, I love it. We watched all the episodes of castle a big fan of she's, she's a lot of fun to work with. Yeah, she's she's a lot of a lot of fun. And so you basically we're doing something that a lot of people talk about today, including myself is trying to leverage social media and leverage fan bases of your actors to help sell your independent movie. Right?

Michael Polish 48:47
And, yeah, it's social media. And how many followers do you

Alex Ferrari 48:50
exactly that's like this is it's not like, what are your credits? Like? What's your following? Yeah, how many? How many Twitter followers you have any Facebook followers? How many?

Michael Polish 48:59
I just tell you right now, I could not open a movie with my followers. Even I couldn't make a movie with my vault.

Alex Ferrari 49:06
Well, I'll help you with that if you'd like sir. Yeah.

Michael Polish 49:09
Great. You're doing pretty dang good.

Alex Ferrari 49:11
I appreciate it. Man. I appreciate it. I've been in the field. hustles been around for about seven months. So we've been I work good hard.

Michael Polish 49:21
You hustle.

Alex Ferrari 49:22
I hustle, no question about it. And for people that and for everyone who doesn't know I literally just tweeted Michael on Twitter a couple days ago. Yeah, you'd had and he's like, yeah, I can do the hustle. Sure. Yeah. And a couple days later, it's the fastest turnaround for an interview I've ever had.

Michael Polish 49:40
Well, you know, I've been, I've been where most of these listeners have been, and hopefully they all get to go through the journey that I've been through as an independent filmmaker. I still consider myself a film, you know, indie guy all the way through but I never ever do not say I don't have the time to help or at least help somebody that Some advice in that situation in that situation because you get some good mentors in this in this industry and you get a lot of good advice and you get a lot of bad advice at the same time and you know getting down and doing your burn Bare Knuckle filmmaking is basically how to get it down.

Alex Ferrari 50:17
Thank you and thank you for that. I know the I know the indie film hustle tribe really appreciates it Now one other question this is a more of a of a tech as an actor technical question. With with four lovers for lovers only since you basically were experimental as far as a SAG is sag contracts concern How did that work when you actually started making money?

Michael Polish 50:39
Oh,

Alex Ferrari 50:39
I'm sure that was a conversation that

Michael Polish 50:42
was occurring it's still a conversation it's a commerce it's a conversation with any union I DGA I won't say that they fired me but in any any it's a tough when you're dealing with union because I'm in line with all three of them and so you you can't you know what I'm going to what I would like to say is not really what I'm going to say but of course I will say something about the DGA they weren't very kind for me going out and making that movie.

Alex Ferrari 51:11
I've heard that about the DGA. They have wonderful benefits, and they're very strong Union for directors. But I mean, that's why Robert Rodriguez left that's why the Tarantino and Lucas aren't part of it, you know, but it's interesting that they're there to help directors but when directors go off and do something like this, like they they don't allow it or but I think now they're a little bit different. I think they're they're kind of like that ultra low budget. Yeah, like sag does now I think the DJ finally caught up to that, am I right? That are

Michael Polish 51:42
they, they caught up with it, it's, I feel it's still a slippery slope with unions. Because you know, every filmmaker has a right to go create whatever they want. And if it's not in the parameters, or in their guidelines, they're going to they're going to make a fuss and and you know, the union is good when it comes to benefits and taking care of zoo animals and stuff. Yeah, in your in your personal side of your living and what your whatnot. But in terms of professional professionally, they haven't seemed to have the, they're not built for renegades or any Mavericks or any of anybody is trying to do something that hasn't been done before. They're not built for that. Right. Now the status quo. Yeah, it's a traditionalism that I understand. Because it's romantic. And it's great to keep making, you know, 1020 $30 million movies back to back but that's not the way the world works and, and they have to adapt to filmmakers that go this Guess what, I'm gonna make a movie for 10 grand. And I'll make one for 100 grand, I'll make one for you. It's about the filmmakers work at the end of the day, and how they're going to provide for them or their family and actually get better because they have to get better at their craft. And sometimes getting a $10 million film school isn't going to work.

Alex Ferrari 52:52
So so then that conversation would sag and stuff like because I'm asking for my own now asking selfishly because I'm doing low budget films as well. And that whole sag ultra low budget you know, we're experimental and things like that I guess that's to a certain point. And then after money starts coming in, then the quest there's the conversation to be had basically correct.

Michael Polish 53:11
Yeah. And, you know, the strange The strange thing about that conversation is studios have been making money a long time and they're not they don't seem to be going to find them for anything. And everybody's there you know, studios being sued left and right surely just being for money they said has been made and they can't find where they've put in they said they've lost and some of the biggest movies you've ever seen are in the red still. And but yet you have the unions coming after the smaller people saying well, if you make money we want to see it it's a it's a as I say it's a it's a hard it's a hard conversation to have with the union that is actually looking for for money. And when you do make the money so happy you made the money, you've probably already spent it.

Alex Ferrari 53:59
And they're like, Where's our money? Iraq? I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about.

Michael Polish 54:04
Would you say we all filmmaker say it's called back pay?

Alex Ferrari 54:07
It's exactly, exactly. So um, you wrote a book, the declaration of independent filmmaking, which I had no idea about until I started doing research. I already it's on order and coming to me, so I can't wait to read it. Can you tell us a little bit about the book?

Michael Polish 54:23
Yeah, the book was written we were being approached. Because before you and a few other of your, of your contemporaries that do podcasts and other people and do this, this type of you know actually goodwill work. It's a lot of goodwill work. You had books that were coming out like Robert Rodriguez, you know, El Mariachi and in the making of how to make I remember the big book was how to make a $7,000 movie. Yeah, how to make or how to make a movie on use card price. Oh,

Alex Ferrari 54:53
yes, yes, Mr. Schmidt.

Michael Polish 54:55
I knew it see these things. But what You know, besides Robert and a few other you saw a lot of filmmaking manuals that were people that either made one movie or their professors in school, they were making, there wasn't a lot of I wasn't gonna do after my first movie because I didn't know if I was going to be able to the second one, the third one after northfork in that experience about that we have enough under our belt that we could help other filmmakers not we're actually not do some of the things that we did and actually improve the situation if they were able to understand what we were at. And also to say, we've had success three times in a row, but that doesn't mean we're we're more wealthy or richer, we what we do have is knowledge. And in those, that book is accumulation leads all the way up to astronaut farmer. It stops before we start making National Farmers. So you see Twin Falls, Idaho, how's that made and jackpot being the first digital movie because we're using Lucas's cameras that he was developing with Sony. And, and then we did northfork, which was the biggest of all three, but each of them were distributed, and we're out. And at that time was seen as a success. All three films are seen as somewhat of a success, but also they were made under all three different conditions. One was 400,001. One was 100,000. And the other one was at the end was 1,000,000.7. So you saw a different range of all types of budgets, and

Alex Ferrari 56:26
you could talk you could talk intelligently about all three experiences, and you had a range of experience talk about

Michael Polish 56:33
Yeah, and with actors, it started out with two unknown, completely unknown people, which were me and my brother doing Twin Falls getting in the jackpot and using a lot of working actors for that were really known just with the actors, which was john Grice. And, and even though beziehen Warren was, is was there, there was also Patrick Boucher, who was doing it, he was he was doing guileless show, he was on TV, but he was a fresh new wave actor, he was great. And so we were able to Garrett Morris who was from SNL, so we started to graduate into getting a lot of great actors great actors but not what we would call ones that were going to finance your movie which and then when we got into doing northfork we ended up working with idols that we saw on once upon a time in America and in seeing McNulty and James Woods so it was a you're able to see that we started by putting ourselves in a movie then you could graduate cast other people and then it was able to get your nor some very notoriety you know some big names and those I think those three movies I believe we're able to show in every different situation every situation most people are in even if they are now what is it like to do a movie when nobody knows you would like to do your second movie when you've had success you know it really as a combination of our career wrapped up in a few years with those those three movies and and you think it's difficult to make your first one it's harder to make your second one and then your fifth one you never think you're going to ever make a movie again. It's It's, it's, it's a it's a constant mental game also that I have to understand that. Don't if you write a screenplay and you hold on to it too long, you say this is my favorite movie. I've always gonna make it he doesn't get major you might be 10 years down the road has not been made. Best thing you can do is write another screenplay and another screenplay. And keep crafting that because one day one's going to hit you say, dang, I have a whole locker full of scripts.

Alex Ferrari 58:36
As opposed to just having one which is a big mistake a lot of filmmakers make

Michael Polish 58:40
Yeah, yeah, I've seen that. I mean, there's still filmmakers today when I started out in the 90s still have that are still humping that first screenplay. Oh, Jesus.

Alex Ferrari 58:47
Now, how did you like I had a question about Twin Falls, Idaho. How much was

Michael Polish 58:52
the budget for that? Just under 500,000. How did

Alex Ferrari 58:56
you get financing for your first movie of a half a million dollars with no. Did you have you? Did you have anything before? like did you shoot I mean, I

Michael Polish 59:04
I was shoot. Yeah, I had, I had a few shorts. I had a few shorts. I had a couple I would say music videos, because that was happening. And I did one really nice sync sound short that I cut and went around and festivals. And that was probably, I would say a calling card for people to say that I could direct a narrative. But But what's tricky about doing shorts and I don't know if it's still the same as today. But back when everybody's making shorts. It wasn't very much a graduation ticket to make a feature because they would say, Well, we know you can make a short. You're gonna make another short or you make a feature. And the short doesn't tell anybody you can make a feature. It just says you're capable of doing something in a short period of time and if you'd like it, then And so if so I felt that we fought we fell on trumpet that shirt because I would take it around and show it at the DGA. I show it to other people think oh, this is really great. What are you doing next I said why I was screenplay. And it was actually northfork was the very first screenplay we ever wrote. And they looked at that and they go, you're nuts. You're nuts. If you want to make movies big, it's in Montana. It's on the High Plains. And, I mean, you're looking at Heaven's Gate right now.

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You're looking at the second biggest disaster movie, if we give you money for this for this. And so we wrote 24 zero. And we know what that's going to be too big in North American Beauty. But let's do something we could actually just get behind. We can be in it, we can actually do it for 1000s of dollars. We have the crew, we have the person making the suit, we could actually pull it off that movie for $25,000. We could have pulled that movie out for that much. And we were getting ready to do it. We were three months out. And our motto was this not set a budget, let's set a time. And it was around Christmas. And I said, we're gonna give our six months to finance this movie if we don't have finance, but at least the costume movie belt locations will be found. I'll get we're shooting a film. So I said, I'll get Kansas short. And so I made all my relationships with division. I made everything with Fuji and I had everything set and I said June 1, we're going to shoot this in LA. And so we were going ahead and doing it for just whatever we can scrape together. Three, eight weeks, eight weeks before we started to shoot. A financer who was coming out of Seattle was coming down and financing small movies and one of the ladies named Rena Ronson. Now she's a she's an agent over at whim. Now she's not worried. She started at William Morris. she, her and Cassie nowadays are putting movies together. She said, you I want you to meet this. I want you to meet this investor, because she's coming out. Yeah, she's only here for a couple of days. And they're doing small, small movies. And I think she respond to it. And so one evening we drove down is right across the street from under the tarp, the bread tar pits, which is so ironic, because you could feel like that's where your career is at at that.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:34
I've been there. I know.

Michael Polish 1:02:35
It smells like it doesn't smell very good. And my we probably didn't smell very good. Yes. Can we blend it in really well. So we went into this meeting, and the lady read the screenplay and said, I want to let you guys know something. I have. I think she said I had twins. I have twin sisters. Oh, I understand what this is about. And I've been happily like to make this movie for you. Do you have a budget? I choose? Can you do it for a price? Because I'm because I'm going to? I'm going to warn it like, I'm never gonna see this money again. Because it's crazy to do a movie. Yeah, it's just nuts. And nobody knows who you guys are in. And nobody's gonna want to be in this movie if you even know somebody. So it just had everything work. Yes.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:18
Very much on paper. Yeah. Um,

Michael Polish 1:03:21
so I was when we said we do it for the low budget agreement, which was 500. And under. She said, you can get it for that agreement. That's, that's 50 times more than the money I'm doing right now. So we'll figure this out. And within six weeks, we were shooting

Alex Ferrari 1:03:38
it. Wow. That's that's pretty amazing, actually. Right? Every time.

Michael Polish 1:03:46
But my my advice to filmmakers is, continue, like you're just gonna make it and do it. Because when the money comes, you're ready to go already. You're not waiting for money, then you're starting up and saying, Well, I'm not sure. Get your budget on for what you think you can do for and understand that you might lock in bigger financing, but see what you can do afford, get your scheduling down. Get the people that want that you can get for your moving the timing, because you're going to have to if you want to make it you're going to have to make it you got to make something or you're really just going to be a Starbucks or somewhere, huh,

Alex Ferrari 1:04:17
yeah, we've all been in LA for those who don't live in LA. If you go to any Starbucks anywhere in Los Angeles at any time of day. There is someone writing a screenplay. I think they I think Starbucks hires them just to sit there. I don't know. Yeah,

Michael Polish 1:04:32
yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm really surprised. And this just, I'll share with you on this. You can share with me on this idea. Yeah, Starbucks should probably start naming coffees at a writer at writers expenses. You know, things like this. Like, this is the final draft cup.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:51
This is this is the Charlie Kaufman cup. Yeah, this

Michael Polish 1:04:54
is Charlie Kaufman could have a have a have a cup of Charlie have a cup of coffee. Yeah, you know,

Alex Ferrari 1:05:03
have a cup of tea. Have writers sponsor you can there? Oh, that's brilliant. Only in LA though. No, no, it has to be la based only absolutely you couldn't go anywhere. But like it but but then basically in San Francisco then you could do tech startups like this Steve Jobs.

Michael Polish 1:05:20
Yeah. I think it would work. I think we would work. I mean, we're always looking at other businesses right now.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:27
Of course, it's just a case this filmmaking thing doesn't work out. Now, a quick question about film and digital, you've shot both. Where's your heart? And where do you shoot mostly nowadays,

Michael Polish 1:05:39
I've been my last feature was on the Alexa which I found, you know, beautifully fast and slow and has a lot of a lot of the light love, light love. And it's just as, just as they've done a really good job with the Alexa, I shot four features on the red, and the epic did Big Sur on the red in for the epic. And it was, it was a beast, it was great. It took it was it has really, really great things about it. I shot I first woke, Twin Falls was 35 millimeter jackpot was digital. And northfork was was was filming. I found that you know, the story should dictate what you want to see. But now that digital is where it's at. And there's no reason why you shouldn't be doing it. I was sitting with Irwin Winkler last or a couple weeks ago. And who was just finishing Martin Scorsese's movie, he said to me,

Alex Ferrari 1:06:41
oh, you're the ones coming out this silence number thing? It's Yeah, yeah. He said, Is that the one with the De Niro and the capreol together? I'm not

Michael Polish 1:06:50
sure but it was it was shot in in Asia and film I'm assuming Yeah. And he goes you know Marty shot someone film and someone digital and I'm not quite sure why he wanted to do why he wanted to do digital Dom or why do you want to use vi he goes hell I don't know why I do it and then when we show it to him he can't tell the difference right now anyway, so I don't know what we're doing. And I just I laugh because you know you have a legend like you have the you have a legend like that. Who speaks to in about another legend? And it feels as common as this conversation if you're if you're in the room to listen to it. They're talking about the same thing we're talking about. And they're having just as much fun and jokes about it and and yet, it's a common thing to talk about this world being digital and film and some holding on to this romantic part is you look at the book film the emotion process, it's just it's a beautiful thing and

Alex Ferrari 1:07:57
it's man it's really magical. I mean, I I've shot 35 shot 16 I shot eight. And isn't there is something magical about celluloid and there's a lot of filmmakers who are fighting very hard to keep it I mean Star Wars was shot 35 and it's actually making a slight comeback now I've actually seen I'm working on I own a post house as well. And I'm working on a film right now that was shot on Super 16 independently you know they shot it because they wanted to get that look like the wrestler had the look and Black Swan Those were all shot Super 16 but it's starting to come back and it's funny that I was talking to a couple buddies of mine over at the ASC and they're like we can't find anybody to load mags like there's just there's no the generation that is coming up has no understanding about loading a mag or film or and it's like it's I'm like really like

Michael Polish 1:08:53
they're at the ACS are just it's it's just the either moving nothing's really moving sideways it's just moving vertical and everything's going up and you know the when you had that film bag and you had the guy sticking his arms in mode scary you know and yeah and then they would say you know, check the gate which was a term which they still sometimes say just as a joke, you know, let's check the gate or

Alex Ferrari 1:09:21
for those who don't know what that term means, it means to check the gate to make sure that it wasn't a hair that got caught in the frame because sometimes you can shoot three or four takes and if there's a hair in the gate, forget about it. We got to reshoot and all those tapes are gone now digitally you can fix that if you if there was a major issue but it's it's interesting. I don't know if I'm maybe I'll shoot film again one day, but I do love the speed of digital and the quality of digital to be honest with you. The Alexa is a gorgeous camera and I've shot a lot of red too.

Michael Polish 1:09:50
Yeah, you know, once these film historians that have fallen in love with film, they do you know, end up taking the negative and digitizing it and Working in post and manipulating they're not truly taking it to a chemical situation in that unless you're going to release it but they don't do an inner negative or an inner positive that's all gone It's so there's a the actual shooting part I understand but right after it gets gets to the laboratory it goes back to what we're doing

Alex Ferrari 1:10:19
it's done yeah it's just it's just a recording medium now it's not a full circle. I mean you remember when di was the big thing with Oh brother where art though? Yeah, like now it's every single movie has to go through di Yeah. before and I tried to explain to people sometimes there was a chemical like how do they call her before I'm like well the DP went into the lab

Michael Polish 1:10:43
Did you and you're dealing with bats and you're dealing with with you know, three colors or four colors and

Alex Ferrari 1:10:51
more yellow they're a little bit more

Michael Polish 1:10:54
Yeah. When you hit you know the funny thing about North work was it's presumed to look like a black and white movie it mean people look at it and they think it's black and white because you saturated yeah we flashed the negative effect we actually flushed the negative in the camera and then we skip and we skip the bleach that left more silver in the print which would make it darker and so when the lab got it they didn't understand what we do with all the sets were painted black and white and gray and everybody wore black and white gray there was no color to it there's no color for them to see what kind of movie that we were making so when we got it it was all pink it was all pink and when we saw the first one I go there's no color to take off of we don't know we said no this The movie is shot everything in the movies black and white so we can we wanted to make a black and white movie but shooting in color in the studio when you know you couldn't sell a black or white movie so we said why don't we just make the movie in front of the camera all black and white. So we spray painted the grass gray. We took we all the milk bottles, all the ketchup bottles had gray paint in them. If you look every single thing in that movie was attend, we carried a 10 gray color chart on our belts. And so we would say pick number four do the bedspread do number five do the shoes. So every single thing in that movie was was out attendance. One being almost white and 10 being black.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:23
Wow. So you basically color graded in camera, your onset onset?

Michael Polish 1:12:28
Yeah, and so when they filmed we were watching when we would watch it you were looking into black and white movie except for the skin tones at the people you would see a sort of a blush blush but that's all the color that was it?

Alex Ferrari 1:12:41
Yeah, you did. Yeah, we

Michael Polish 1:12:43
shot one of the opening shots is the American flag that we had sown in black and white and the stars are white and the blue is black and the red is gray. And that flag flew over the state of a part of Montana and when you when you photograph it it looks black and white I

Alex Ferrari 1:12:57
mean and for Pete and for people who don't know what bleach bypass is it's the process that Fincher did on seven to get those darks like the blacks just pitch black and then he crunched it there at the deep they did they didn't do di there was no di then he did it all on the lab I think back then. Wow. So one one last one last question before I get to a few I always ask the same last questions to everybody so but one curious question I have Why did you change your name as the director on stay cool and smell of the success?

Michael Polish 1:13:33
Oh, those are those are my my movies that when you know you're in good company just like when you find financing false you when you don't get the cut that you want. When you don't get the cut you want you you take your name off the move

Alex Ferrari 1:13:50
you Alan Smith, he did. Oh, okay, so but you did those two back to back so you had two bad experiences.

Michael Polish 1:13:56
Two weeks? Yeah, it was two was two years of my life that you were two really special movies there were two really special movies and they were expensive to make and hell of

Alex Ferrari 1:14:10
a cast on the both of when we are when we

Michael Polish 1:14:15
sold them both. The minute we finished we sold them. The one premiered at Sundance one per minute Tribeca IFC, IFC Films which one of them both, and there was another company at the same time, both and we had the financier, the production company wanted to hold out for a bigger offer. And I said, you know, the success of these movies is going to be distributed. And so we got in a big debate of is it better to have a movie released or to make the money upfront and never or never seen or have a movie released and be able to be credible to make more movies and this this is a brand new production company and they wanted to they just had different ideas. And and I understand that they had different ideas, but At the end of the day, this this was my, I think it was my sixth or sixth and seventh promotion finance film I hadn't I had a really good understanding of what was going to happen. If they didn't sell fast, they would look like these movies. Were doing well, there was a failure. And it's better to have a perception in Hollywood, since it runs on perception that these films are sold, and they're coming out as opposed to holding on for two years, seeing if you're going to get a better offer. And they said, well, we'll get a better offer if we go in and recut these movies. And I said, Well, yes, you're going to get a better offer, then you go for it. And so I actually, before I room, I remove my name. I watched what they wanted to do. And I said to go ahead, and I watched the movies back, I said, are enough screenings for with that cut? Go for it? We didn't, there wasn't an offer. There was an offer for that for those movies for a year. And then I said, Well, go back to the original card, because you have an offer on these movies. And because I you know, because we proved to be right. It wasn't right to be proved wrong. You know, it wasn't till we. And so they sell in the movies and released and for. I mean, it was one of those tragedies and films that we've seen with other filmmakers, too. But

Alex Ferrari 1:16:17
But let me ask you, though, at the level you were at when you made these two movies, wouldn't you? And I'm assuming the budgets. I mean, they weren't like $100 million, or $20 million movies. Wouldn't you get Final Cut or wound? negotiate? final call? Yeah,

Michael Polish 1:16:32
we negotiated Final Cut, but but it's when you're dealing with attorneys that can sue you for sitting on a park bench for doing nothing. You know, you have you can start picking fights and what their idea was what they claimed was yet Final Cut. If it's sold, and they didn't want to make it, meaning they didn't if they didn't accept the deal, it didn't sell.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:57
So that was that was their loophole. The loophole

Michael Polish 1:16:59
was you have Final Cut. And yeah, you have a deal and we could sell it so you keep final crap. But if we don't sell it, it's not selling so we're going to cut it. So it was one of those fighting, you know, disasters that you walk into saying, Yeah, Final Cut, but if it doesn't, so obviously there was a problem. But and

Alex Ferrari 1:17:15
you did not one because normally you hear that story with one movie, but yeah, two. Yeah,

Michael Polish 1:17:19
it was two years of just taking it on the chin. I mean, taking it everywhere. Actually.

Alex Ferrari 1:17:27
I understand what you mean, sir. Well, with that said, Can you talk a little bit about your latest film hotpot, which I hear?

Michael Polish 1:17:34
Yeah. We made right after Big Sur. And it was a screenplay that we had it for a while. And it was, it was sort of a homage to Weird Science. And it was to be a small million dollar feature that we were going to go shoot and really have a lot of fun. And if we did, we had a lot of fun with that movie because it was just too goofy teenagers getting a sex robot way before it was halfway before the Scarlett Johansen robot came out yesterday, you know, way before it was years ago. I mean, we did this three years ago. And it was it was fine. It almost it didn't run the same risk as as the two moves are speaking just about it. What happened was we decided to what they wanted to get a true theatrical, and it was going to be a day on date movie. And so they just waited for that perfect timing went on and went on and went on. I don't think the distributor was happy with how they were going to release and what they're going to put in. So there's a lot of turmoil about how you were going to release a movie like that. However, having said that, it wasn't that kind of, it wasn't the same experience. It's the movies is the movie and it came out. I think it came out a little late. I mean, actually came out way late. But then that's a type of movie that can stick around and it doesn't have it somebody will always discover it. So I didn't have I didn't have too much precious feelings about it was it was a fun exercise was fun to shoot. And the kids and it was

Alex Ferrari 1:19:07
a lot of fun. Yeah, it looked like it from the trailer looks like a lot of good. Yeah. So what? What final advice, can you give young filmmakers venturing out on their first feature film,

Michael Polish 1:19:18
make decisions? And that you can ultimately correct because if you don't make a decision, you're just going to be like most everybody looking? What do I want to do how I want to do it? You know, I believe a director is for a better word is mainly a coach, not so much. They have to keep the stamina of everybody going. And especially independent films are based on relationships, not so much money. Although money starts and stops your production. What keeps it going are the days you don't have money. So you really have to be the person behind that builds that relationship with that crew that allows them to give you what you need, and get everybody to do the exact same thing. At Exact same time and you call action. And that is somewhat of being a coach in that term as a football analogy to get all those different personalities together on the line to say hi, that's pretty brilliant. to not move. Everybody stands still until I say, I mean that, to me is like moviemaking, to get all these people just to shut up. Stop.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:23
Yep, you know, you're absolutely right. It's like

Michael Polish 1:20:28
you are, it's the best position to be in and the worst position to be at the same time because it's controlled chaos.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:34
Everybody wants to be in that position, but very few people know what to do once they get there.

Michael Polish 1:20:40
And then thrive under those conditions. Because day one to day 30. You spent everything you've got inside and out, and you've got to act like it was day one.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:50
I was gonna ask you real quick with that. With that being said, the whole mumble core Mark duplessis. Jo, swans were kind of films. What are your what's your vibe on those? What do you What's your opinion on those kind of films that just got filmmakers that just go out with whatever camera they have. And it remarked upon Mark duplass. She's,

Michael Polish 1:21:09
she's is. I mean, I love that kid. I mean, I call him I love him to death just because we've we've run we've crossed paths so many times in our careers. And we're not that unsimilar about the way we've done our movies, and we will finance it, he is consistently going down the path that I kind of go back and forth with meaning I've done higher films and lower films, but and I do quite different genres back to back. But Mark has just been somebody I've always admired and I have a good relationship with and you know, there's nothing bad I can say about somebody who's actually kicking butt all the time, and his wife to his wife is tremendous.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:47
And his brother is now killing it on. Trans is a trans America. Oh, yeah. transparent, transparent. Amazon show as an actor now as well. Yeah. Jay. Jay. Yeah. Jay, as well. It's Did you like when you saw puffy chair, obviously, yeah. It's like I watched puffy chair and I'm just like, cuz you're, you're taught in film school, that everything needs to look like, perfect. You have to know the production value. You have to do this and that. And these guys just grabbed a camcorder. And when I shot a movie, yeah, they don't care about sound. They didn't care about anything. But the story was good.

Michael Polish 1:22:26
Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's, that's the fabric of a good movie. It's just getting that story down. And you know, executions always gonna be judged. Even when you make something that's beautiful. Look how people say I still didn't like the way that though Did you like they, they really spent time doing that. And there's people that say, I don't spend time I just want to make I want to see the acting and the story. And people say I didn't like the way it looked. But God that was a funny movie, or that was a really well acting movie. And I think the look of a movie has a free pass at this story is great.

Alex Ferrari 1:22:59
I think I mean, I actually have a podcast coming out. I are just by this time this airs that already had come out about basically telling filmmakers, like, no one cares what you shot your movie on. And a lot of people like oh, I shot it on the red or I shot it on the Lexan like, you could shoot it on your iPhone. Or is your story good? Yeah, that's what matters is is the story. Good? You're absolutely right. I think you do get a pass visually. And even auto audio is what if you've got a good story and those are so rare, aren't they?

Michael Polish 1:23:30
They're really they're rare. I'm I'm working on a picture right now. Where they're in the writing is fantastic. I'm working on speed the cloud with David Mamet. Play that up adapting to a movie,

Alex Ferrari 1:23:42
he's done, okay? He's he bites, okay. Oh, you see, you

Michael Polish 1:23:45
see what he's, you see his words and you go. What's wonderful about David is he's just say his words. You don't have to do anything. Just let them come out of your mouth, and you are there. And that's remarkable. With David's work, ma'am. It just has the ability to you don't have to put any touches on his words. You don't have to bring them up down, polish them, whatever you want you to Sam and they are in Mamet. You're Mamet no

Alex Ferrari 1:24:09
matter. Exactly like like a Tarantino, like your Tarantino. Yeah, it's like there's that voice. It's so crisp, and clear. And and it's non. You can't confuse it.

Michael Polish 1:24:19
Yeah, it's great writers have that tactic like care about when I did Big Sur you it was a definitely Kerouac piece because of the way he he was a language. It was language. He was able to spend language in a way that was unique at the time. And it was a train of thought that was recorded that was unique for a generation, which, you know, probably other bloggers have. Did they do the same thing?

Alex Ferrari 1:24:46
Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I want to I want to leave you with the last few questions I have to ask all of my all of these are the toughest questions. So I ask all of my guests this

Michael Polish 1:24:55
is there. If they're not time, then it's

Alex Ferrari 1:24:57
not time at all. What Is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Michael Polish 1:25:04
Well, I don't know if this this this the lesson that took me the longest to learn was Don't be so fucking precious.

Alex Ferrari 1:25:14
Oh man, that is a lesson most filmmakers need to learn in a big way. Yeah, don't be so precious about because that preciousness is what has you Hawking that same script since 1995.

Michael Polish 1:25:25
Yeah. And it will, it will, it'll kill you. It'll kill the spirit. It'll kill your spirit. It'll kill your wife spirit. It'll kill your kids spirit. It'll kill your dog spirit, because you're going to start defending a piece of art, just to defend whether it's right or you're going to start defending it and make choices based on that that's probably might not make some happen or make the film not that great.

Alex Ferrari 1:25:47
That's a great lesson to learn. And oh my god, if most filmmakers coming out of school, or are just starting out would learn that lesson, man. Got it? I mean, I've had so many. I mean, I've I've been in post for about 20 years. So I've had so many filmmakers walk through my doors and my God. You know, you never know a filmmaker or human being more than you do when you're in a dark room with them for eight hours, 10 hours at a time for

Michael Polish 1:26:14
For you to chat. It's, you know, these families that we create are the traveling circus families of today, and it's just different personalities for months on end. And Yep, you don't see him for two years, and then you're back in bed with them again. It's it's hard.

Alex Ferrari 1:26:29
Yeah. It's carnies. It's it's something that people don't understand. Like we are kind of like carnies in that sense, because you do you like, and it's weird what you make such intense relationships, being a director of being a filmmaker, with your crew, that you literally can not see them for five years. And then, hey, you want to come back to work with me? And the second you see them? It's like, not a day is gone.

Michael Polish 1:26:50
Yeah. And you, you've seen, you talk to your crew, you see your crew way more than you've seen your family. For the rest of your life, he spent 18 hours a day with most of these brothers and sisters. Yeah, it's intense. And it's a great bond when it works really, really well. And then you don't have to see him for two years, because he spent more time than those two years apart in one

Alex Ferrari 1:27:16
And one, three, and one two month period or something like so. And then what are three of your favorite films of all time, when in no particular order?

Michael Polish 1:27:25
Maybe not all the favorites. The influential ones, the ones I remember, I would say seeing what's more time in America was a film that influenced me because it wasn't the godfathers it wasn't. It was the Jewish mafia and how it was, it was wonderful to watch James Woods and Rob Robertson near a very young ages. duel it out on on this movie was just beautiful to watch. It was authentic. Yeah, and that was just his foray. Yeah, in America and and it just taught me a lot about music and cinematography. And why I felt and why you know, actually why didn't understand the movie, why didn't understand what what was the depth of it that I didn't get in this room? And what was the symbolism, the religious symbolism all throughout the film, and where was he coming from? And I think that was one of those movies, I look back on going, Wow, that was something night. And they're all childhood films in a way because we're so impressionable, and I'm pressing Close Encounters of the Third Kind was one of those films, which was just a stroke of genius to have the suspense that he built around these. These, these foreigners that we call aliens, and how they would come in and out in the world and be in our daily lives and, and attach ourselves to that, to that was, was wonderful to watch as a kid was just one. I mean, you watch jaws still holds up. Yeah, I would say those two on the same feeling. Same I was, I would say I could interchange those all the time. And then I know, the third one hasn't been made yet. Oh, wow.

Alex Ferrari 1:29:14
Very great answer. I like that answer. It's still coming. It's still coming online. Yeah. So where can people find you on Michael?

Michael Polish 1:29:23
in Montana?

Alex Ferrari 1:29:27
Online, sir. Oh, yeah, our website. I didn't I wasn't asking for your home address.

Michael Polish 1:29:35
It's a big it's a big state.

Alex Ferrari 1:29:37
It is a big state. And it's there's more cows than people though.

Michael Polish 1:29:40
Oh, yeah. They're definitely more are still under a million people in that state. Yeah, it was I'm thinking a lot about say because Merle Haggard passed away this morning. And, and in. He had a great song called Big City and it was about leaving everything behind and being dumped off in Montana. So You know, my blessings to him and his family because he was such a great iconic You know, he had something like 79 Top 10 hits in the top 10 or 73 I think of us 73 Top 10 hits.

Alex Ferrari 1:30:16
Yeah, that's ridiculous. That's more than Lady Gaga. I'm joking.

Michael Polish 1:30:18
I know. I mean, who all she want to do is have a duet with him right? But yeah, it's like you can find me on Twitter it's a pain on my face on my Instagram the same name as Twitter. Michael dash polish. Yeah, yeah. Michael. underscore. Yeah, Wonder Miko underscore polish is usually both of them. is you can find them on both, or Yeah, I think they're both.

Alex Ferrari 1:30:46
And do you have a website at all or no?

Michael Polish 1:30:49
No. I have your website. Now. You can find me.

Alex Ferrari 1:30:51
You can find them on indie film hustle. Which will now live will live all now that's that's your calling card now like, I don't know it just got any full muscle look my name up all my contact informations there.

Michael Polish 1:31:03
He's right there right in the corner anybody? anybody's looking for microphones? Just have that arrow.

Alex Ferrari 1:31:12
Michael man, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you, man. Thanks, man. Really, really, thank you so much.

Michael Polish 1:31:16
Keep up the good work. And you're you're doing a good job for the community.

Alex Ferrari 1:31:20
I appreciate it, man. Hope you guys picked up some knowledge on that one man, I was asked I hope you guys appreciate I was asking him all those questions. I was really grilling him about all the technical stuff goes. And even some of the business stuff, because I was really curious to see how he was able to do everything you did on for lovers only. So if you guys haven't had a chance to check that out, I'm going to put a link to not only that, but a bunch of his other movies, as well as his amazing book, the declaration of independent filmmaking, which I've since read, and it is a really, really, really good book for independent filmmakers. It's a great, I would rank it up there with Rebel Without a crew, Robert Rodriguez book, which I'll also put the links in the show notes. Because it was a really great book and really shows you a passionate group of filmmakers trying to make their movies and they throw a lot of lessons out about how it really is and what you need to do to make a movie. So definitely check that out. The show notes are of course at indiefilmhustle.com/069. So once again, thank you, Michael polish, for being on the show. You are an inspiration. Thank you for showing us that we can do it. No matter what just a good story, a camera, and a dream. And you can go make something happen. As always guys, head over to filmmakingpodcast.com filmmakingpodcast.com and leave us a good review for the show. It really helps us out a lot. And I've been getting a lot of notes, emails, letters from the tribe, and of encouragement of thank yous of, you know, the how much the show means to them, and how much the website means to you guys. And I really meant from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for being loyal listeners of the show. And it really humbles me every time I get these letters and these emails, so please keep them coming. It keeps me going. You know, it really does keep me going and I do have a bunch of stuff. I'm working on some exciting stuff that I'm going to be bringing you guys in the next coming weeks. I am working heavily in the lab, as they say to to bring out some very cool stuff and I'm going to be doing some very experimental stuff moving forward in the feature film world coming up soon so I will keep you guys abreast of that as it comes goes forward. So as always guys, thank you very very much for being just being you guys. Thanks guys so much. Keep that hustle going keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 068: Do You Need a Movie Star to Sell Your Indie Film?

Being in post-production for over 20 years, many films have walked through my doors. Some with huge movie stars that go nowhere and others with no stars that win Sundance.

The question is do you really need a movie star in your independent film to be able to sell it? The answer is yes…and no. I lay out specifics on when and if you need star power in your film and I discuss what the new definition of star power is today.

The times they are a-changing my indie film hustlers and if you don’t change with them you’ll be left behind. Take a listen and let me know what you thin in the comments below.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:00
So my hustlers today, the question on the table is, do I need a movie star in my film, to make money or to have a successful film? Now I got that question from a indie film, hustler tribe member His name is Robert. And the question really is a little bit of a double edged sword because yes and no, the quite the answer to the question is yes and no. So this is the way it works with bringing named talent into a feature film, or to a project, a feature project, or short project or whatever kind of projects you're doing. There are just endless lists of movies that had no stars in it. That made a ton of money. And people like, Look, you don't need a star to make a movie to make a movie successful and to make money with it. And yes, if the story is amazing, and you get a lot of festival credibility, and you get a bunch of people behind you, and it's something really, really cool, then yes, you don't need a movie star to make it happen. Now, it's also depending on genre, if you're if you're doing a horror movie, talent, debt is not absolutely necessary, the genre is selling itself. Same thing with action, though action does benefit from a star too. But action is a genre that travels very, very well. internationally. So it doesn't need a star. But a star definitely helps. Hoare is definitely a genre that doesn't need star power. But anytime you can bring star power on, it's beneficial. And I'll explain why. If you bring a star on any type of star, and I'm not talking about big, big monster stars that you can't afford for your movie, but even if it's a television star, a comedian, a, you know, a character actor who has been in a ton of stuff, but they're not like movie star material. They're just good actors with really with, you know, resumes of working on big movies, these is always a beneficial thing. Anytime you can put faces in the camera that people can recognize, it's a beneficial thing. Why? Because when you do that, you're leveraging their popularity, their recognizability to your film. So let's just put it this way. There's a movie that I worked on a few years ago, that was a little sci fi action movie. And originally, they had no stars in it whatsoever. None. And they went they we did it, we edited it, we posted it, everything was done. They went out to the marketplace and tried to sell it. And guess what happened? Nothing. No one bought it. Nobody was interested at all. So what the producers did, very, very smartly. They went out, they hired a couple of actors, name actors that brought some money with them meaning money, meaning that if they were in the movie, they could sell the movie, shot a day or two of them replaced some old of some of the other actors with some of these key scenes, added these actors in and all of a sudden, guess what happened magically they sold their movie. So it does benefit having an act I mean, having a name actor or some sort of movie star or face that people recognize. So and believe it or not, guys, you know, getting some of these movie stars out there to come in for your movie. It's not that expensive. You know, I'm not going to quote quotes because I do know some quotes for some of the some of the stars, but I don't want to say them publicly. But if you'd be surprised if you approach certain actors that that want to do work, they just want to work and they're actors who have names and have credibility and help with distribution. You'd be surprised at how affordable some of these actors are. So if you have have a movie and you feel that you need to get an actor or want to get an actor Go for it, just ask them you know, obviously if they're big movie stars, making million $2 million, a movie, you know, and it's your first feature film, probably not going to happen, guys. But don't be embarrassed. Don't be afraid to just approach people to see if they're interested in working with you in your story. Now, obviously a lot of times actors big movie stars like to work with independent filmmakers. To be able to play more to express themselves more as actors not to be confined so much by the studio system, and they'll come on board and work for scale sometimes or very affordably just to be, you know, if they are if they feel that this project, or the material is something that they really gravitate to, and they can really do something with. So you've never know who you're going to be able to get in your movies, I've heard crazy stories of people who will come on the show, and they'll just work for either scale free, or very minimal money, just to be a part of the project. So that does happen, guys. Now, on the other end of the spectrum, do you need a movie star to make a movie to make a successful movie? Absolutely not. It helps dramatically. Don't get me wrong, anytime. Like I said, you put someone in front of the screen that people recognize and distributors recognize is a good thing. But if you're making a movie for $5,000. And believe it or not, there are a lot of movies being made for 510 15 2025 $30,000. a feature film that is non genre based, let's say it's a drama, or a comedy or drama, or a little indie film that has that kind of personal touch to it. No, you don't absolutely need a big star or movie star in that movie. But the thing is that the cost, the budget of that movie is low enough that if you've done your job, right, as a filmmaker slash entrepreneur and build up your audience, and you're able to sell it, and you have a selling a marketing plan, and a distribution plan, either self distribution, or traditional distribution, making your money back on a $30,000 movie is not impossible, if done correctly, no matter what the genre is, as long as you can have an audience that they sell it to and know how to reach that audience. Yes, absolutely, you do not need an actor there. Now, if the budgets are going to 100,000 200,000, half a million, there's a lot more responsibility on you as a filmmaker, and unless you're financing yourself and money is no object, and you do need to recoup that money for your investors, then you have to or definitely, I strongly suggest you put in actors who have some sort of guarantee, and they're kind of like an insurance policy for investors. investors were like, Look, I'm gonna let you make your movie, you could do whatever you want with your movie, you have Final Cut of your movie, but you know what? I've got final say on who you cast. Because depending on who you cast is, what kind of insurance policy I will have to get my money back as an investor. So if your movie completely sucks, but has a star b star C star in it, that have a following already to them, and they automatically get distribution because of who they are. Guess what the investor says, Well, at least I can get my money back if the movie sucks. So to review, do you need a movie star? It always helps Do you need actors, TV stars, someone that can help you get some credibility to your movie? always helps. It always helps. But do you absolutely need it? No, it all depends on the kind of movie you're trying to make, kind of return you're expecting to make and the budget of that film. So I hope that answered your question guys. And by the way, if you want to ask other questions, head over to indie film, hustle, calm Ford slash Facebook. And that will take you directly to our private Facebook group that we talk about everything and everything is a place where all the tribe members come to talk. So sign up. Now prove you guys indie film hustle.com for slash Facebook. And if you want the show notes for the show, head over to indie film, hustle, calm Ford slash zero 68 please don't forget to head over to filmmaking podcast calm and leave us an honest review of the show. It really helps us out a lot. So as always, keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

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IFH 067: Film Festival Secrets – How to Crack the Festival Code

Submitting to film festivals is torture. Did I get in? Did the programmer watch it yet? When will I know? How much to submit? You wait by your email to see if Sundance or SXSW accepted you? Wouldn’t it be amazing if you had some insight into the film festival process? Maybe even some Film Festival Secrets?

On the show today I have one of the leading authorities on film festivals, Chris Holland from Film Festival Secrets.comThe man literally wrote the book on the subjectFilm Festival Secrets: A Handbook For Independent Filmmakers.

Chris decodes the mystery that is film festival submissions and drops some knowledge bombs on us. Now if you are a listener of the show you also know that Chris and I created a one of a kind course on Film Festivals called Film Festival Hacks: Submit Like a Pro Course but what you may not know is we also created a FREE Podcast Series called the Film Festival Hacks Podcast. We should be launching that podcast in a couple of weeks.

It’ll be packed with info on the inner workings of film festivals, submission strategies and more. So check back here and I’ll put a link up when the show goes live! Until then enjoy my conversation with Chris Holland.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 1:11
In this episode of our film festivals we have the leading authority on film festivals, the man who literally wrote the book on it, his name is Chris Holland. We've talked about him before. He's my co instructor on the film festival hacks course. He runs an amazing website called Film Festival secrets calm. Chris has been in the film festival game for over a decade now. And he created Film Festival secrets to kind of help other filmmakers and understand the process because it was kind of like a mystery. And he had seen all the behind the scenes stuff of how film festivals work. These work that's a major film festivals around the country, and really has an insight that was rare, and decided to write the book literally the book on a call Film Festival secrets. And later he opened up Film Festival secrets.com to help and consult filmmakers on their films how to submit to properly to film festivals, what festivals to submit to and so on. So wanted to bring them on the show and really kind of break down and get some inside information on what it really takes to get into film festivals and how to use film festivals for what they're what they're worth and what they can do for you and leverage them and not to be taken advantage by the process and not to throw money away. Because I've been in over 600 Film Festivals with all my projects over the years. And believe me I've lost 1000s of dollars in submission processes and traveling to festivals and things like that. And you know Chris really talks a lot about what to do how to be strategic with your money, how to be strategic with your time and make it work for you guys so without further ado, here is my interview with Chris Holland. May I introduce to our indie film hustlers the man the myth the legend Chris Holland. Thank you sir.

Chris Holland 2:54
You say that to all boys don't you?

Alex Ferrari 2:56
I say that to everyone sir. But but but with you. I say it's special.

Chris Holland 3:01
I feel duly special. How are you man?

Alex Ferrari 3:05
I'm doing great. Talk to you. I've been trying to get Chris on the show for God months now. We've been friends for a while and we're like, I can't get you on the show. Gotta get you on the show Got Game Show. We just never would never get around to it. Though. We talk all the time. We just never got around to it. So we finally set a time and I wanted to share all of Chris's amazing film festival knowledge with the with the tribe. So my first question, Chris, is how did you get into the film festival game?

Chris Holland 3:33
Uh, well, back in the dark days of the early internet, let's say 96' 97'.

Alex Ferrari 3:40
Rough times rough.

Chris Holland 3:44
I was a film critic, one of the very first what would later become bloggers. I want to tell you how special this was Alex, it was so special that it I think it was 99 my co writer and I actually got written up in the New York Times for reviewing Godzilla movies on the internet. I kid you not

Alex Ferrari 4:06
You got to be kidding. So there literally was nobody doing this.

Chris Holland 4:10
It was a brand new thing. Guys who review weird movies on the internet that is worthy of a New York Times article. It's framed on my office wall. Brilliant. Yeah. Anyway, but as time went on, you know, we thought man, we're gonna make some money on this internet film criticism stuff. No. When it became apparent that everybody in his dog was going to be reviewing movies on the internet. You know, I looked around for something else. And that's something else. Very soon became film festivals. Not that there's a ton of money in film festivals. But I eventually fell in with a distributor that was doing very interesting things that included film festivals in a big way. So I got to know two or 300 different Film Festival directors and You know, the rest is history I worked for. I worked on staff at four film festivals now. Austin, Atlanta, Oxford, and Portland. And you know, it's been a great ride.

Alex Ferrari 5:12
Nice to say. So, um, are the magic of our festivals even relevant nowadays, like for filmmakers to submit? Because I mean, in the world that we are today, like I know, before, it was the only way to kind of get noticed. But now with all the stuff that happens online, is it even relevant?

Chris Holland 5:28
Oh, I think, you know, this is a question that gets asked about once a year at somebody's conference or whatever, or in a blog or festivals still a thing? Yeah, of course they are. Of course, film festivals are still a thing. Sundance just made its largest ever, you know, now that they sold the film, but the film is sold during the festival.

Alex Ferrari 5:48
17.5 million.

Chris Holland 5:51
Yeah. So just because new doors open in the world of indie film doesn't mean that the old ones disappear. If anything, festivals are more relevant, because they're the only ones who are willing to go through the 1000s of movies that get made every year to find the good stuff. And let me tell you, there's more and more of these films being made every year. Submission rates go up and up and up. Every Film Festival everywhere touts its, you know, record breaking number of submissions every year. It's not like they're doing anything to earn that film right? coming to them. Right. So next time you hear a festival go, we had a record breaking 5000 films this year, you know, recognize that's a big number, but it just is the rising tide lifting all the boats, somebody's got to go through all those films. Somebody's got to figure out what what the good is and what the bad is. And I don't see the distributors looking to do that, you know, that's a labor of love. festivals are the ones who who have that love.

Alex Ferrari 6:51
Are there. Is there any money to be made at film festivals? Like I know, obviously Sundance in Toronto and the big boys but like, you know, Moose Jaw Film Festival somewhere in the middle of the country? Is it? Are they making money? Like how what's the what's the financial scenario with money with festivals?

Chris Holland 7:07
If you're talking about the festivals themselves, yes, there are many festivals that are run as nonprofits, most of them are run as nonprofits, okay, that doesn't mean that there is no profit involved. But very often the kind of people that you get who start a film festival, you know, to them nonprofit means so long as they break even there. Okay. So there's, you know, a lot of festivals are on the edge, a lot of them shut down in 2008 910. You know, when sponsorship money dried up, there are festivals that do very well, that are run smartly. and South by Southwest is a for profit endeavor.

Alex Ferrari 7:44
That's a monster.

Chris Holland 7:45
Yeah. there's money to be made. But you have to look at it as a business. When it comes to, is there money for filmmakers at festivals? Probably no, generally not. Generally, it is a way to get other benefits, which we can talk about later on. But, you know, with a few exceptions, you know, either niche content or films that are so you know, upper level that they already have distribution. There's no money changing hands between festivals and filmmakers,

Alex Ferrari 8:22
Generally, but there are prizes and things like that sometimes,

Chris Holland 8:25
Sure. But I wouldn't that's that's not a business model. Right? That's

Alex Ferrari 8:30
The business model for a filmmaker like, I'm going to make him submit and it's $10,000 at first price. So obviously, I'm going to get that right. That's more of a lottery ticket mentality. So so you just got back from South by Southwest? I've never been to the South by Southwest Film Festival. I've been to many other ones. I've never been to that one. Can you tell the audience a little bit of what you saw there this year, and how things have changed since last time you were there? And any any good gossip?

Chris Holland 9:01
Any good guys. Number Number one, Austin is changing. You know, for those who may have been there in the past, but haven't been a few years. Austin itself is almost unrecognizable. And I think that is a direct impact that South by Southwest has South by Southwest, you know, brought all of these creative and technically inclined people to Austin, who figured out how cool it was started moving there started starting companies there which brought the bigger tech companies who Facebook Google, you know, they brought their offices to Austin. And so now there's all of this technology industry, you know, building up there and they need offices, they need housing, but in a more direct way. There are more hotels and conference spaces in theaters in Austin than ever before. So they are quite literally changing the face of what Austin looks like from a festival perspective. You know, it's much the same as it was with the exception of sort of this sprawl of venues, they've opened satellite venues, they've colonized some live theater spaces. So it's actually a lot harder to get it a lot harder, it's harder to get a diverse sampling of things that you want to see because like films tend to get programmed at like venues. So tentpole features are going to play at the Paramount or a larger venue like that, and smaller indie films are going to play it's at smaller venues like the Alamo, Ritz. And then shorts, for some reason, all got, you know, sort of,

Alex Ferrari 10:43
In the bathroom,

Chris Holland 10:45
Well no not in the bathroom, and they had decent sized spaces, because there are lots of filmmakers who show up for those, right, they're all traveling in from out of town and those who are local or bring like, so they need space, but they're not getting the cherry downtown spaces that they could be. And that's it. They're not being exiled or anything, but they are, you know, it's get on a shuttle kind of thing. And so if you're going to do that, you want to spend as little time as possible sitting on a bus traveling between you want to be doing stuff, right. So if you're going to see short films, it makes a lot more sense to just spend a day at the venue where the shorts are being played, and watch a bunch of them. Got it. So the changes to South by Southwest that I see are logistical. And maybe that's just like, my brain like that's what I'm looking for. But artistically, I think they are as adventurous as they ever were. They're getting better and bigger sort of premiere type things like they had PBS big holiday. And you know, all they had that midnight Keanu screening. So there's more demand and more stuff. They're trying to stuff in the same amount of time. But it's still got that South by Southwest flavor.

Alex Ferrari 11:59
So it seems like South and again, this might be a horrible analogy, but it seems like it's it's a Sundance meets Comic Con because it's so big in scope. No, obviously not comic book stuff. But studios are starting to come in there. And there's and it's not just a film festival. It's a music festival. And it's also a technology festival. Correct.

Chris Holland 12:16
Right. So the three different sections of South by Southwest are music, which was its primary purpose from the beginning, film and interactive, Thurman interactive begin on the Friday of the first weekend. And film continues basically through the following week. I don't think it plays into the next weekend. But I could be wrong about that. And then interactive is only four or five days long. That takes place over that first weekend into like the that Tuesday. And then music starts up on Wednesday of the middle of that weekend plays through the following weekend. So it's actually these three things all taking place at once. Some of the film and interactive things overlap in terms of programming, like their panels that you can go to. If you have a film badge, there are films you can go to if you have an interactive badge, and then you know music and film also overlap in certain places. So there's a lot to get out of it.

Alex Ferrari 13:20
Sounds exhausting.

Chris Holland 13:21
It is exhausting. I was only there for five days and basically needed another week to get over it.

Alex Ferrari 13:27
Like Sundance is exactly like Sunday.

Chris Holland 13:31
Without the 12 pounds of additional clothing that you need to wear.

Alex Ferrari 13:34
Yes In the end, you can't breathe because you're at 5000 feet or over high you are

Chris Holland 13:41
but it has its own challenges for sure.

Alex Ferrari 13:43
What is your favorite film festival you've been at? Like that you absolutely just love the vibe and love the whole thing.

Chris Holland 13:49
As an attendee, the first five years of Fantastic Fest were my favorite film festival experience ever. I have not been since then. I think it's probably been five or six years since I've been to a Fantastic Fest and that just because of bad scarcity pay and the fact that I don't live in Austin. But when I was living in Austin, it was hands down like it's one of the few festivals where I went every time there was a film playing I was in a theater because the films themselves were so exciting and I wasn't going to chance to see them anywhere else. And man What a great just like film purist environment as an industry member, I mean south by is right up there. And there's so many good ones. I had a really good time in Toronto. I think hotdocs if you're a documentary filmmaker, there are a few few places that are better to be than hotbox and you know what? sidewalk birmingham alabama

Alex Ferrari 14:56
so yeah, heard about the sidewalk. Okay.

Chris Holland 14:59
You have heard me ramble on about the Oxford film festival? Yes, yes. You know there there's some festivals in the deep south, which is where I'm living now Atlanta that are just, you know, top notch in terms of like, small town audience feel they take care of the filmmakers, you know, Oxford and indie Memphis and sidewalk like these are great festivals.

Alex Ferrari 15:22
Awesome. Awesome. Now what are some of the benefits of screening at a film festival nowadays,

Chris Holland 15:27
I would say the three primary benefits these days are the credibility that you get from you know, a festival putting its stamp of approval on your film. The opportunity to build an audience and you thereby get some distribution and the ability to sort of meet your peers and have a career day, meet other people in the industry and then make those connections that will serve you through your future projects.

Alex Ferrari 16:01
It's very true. I've met so many different people at these film festivals. It's it's not even funny. And it's like at Sundance in Toronto and things like that. And I think that sometimes smaller festivals depending on where you are, if you're if it's in your town, then it's very beneficial for you to network. But those bigger festivals you meet people that you might never have access to, especially like a Sundance, when I was living in Florida, I'd go to Sundance and you have la there. La is in a three block radius. Everybody walking the streets is in the business. The access you get is pretty remarkable. Would you agree?

Chris Holland 16:36
Oh yeah, absolutely. No question.

Alex Ferrari 16:38
No. Do you have any advice on how to choose the right Film Festival for filmmakers film?

Chris Holland 16:46
Well, there's a lot of legwork involved for sure. I think you can get a real Head Start by doing two things. Number one, go grab the list of Oscar accredited film festivals printed out and tear it up. Because those festivals you know that list of festivals is so over relied upon by filmmakers, that those festivals even though the Oscar accreditation is only for shorts, feature filmmakers use that list too. And so those those festivals are just overwhelmed with submissions, you are instantly putting yourself at a disadvantage by submitting to an Oscar accredited Film Festival. Anybody who works at an Oscar accredited to film festival like I did twice, both Austin and Atlanta. Who feels offended that that really shouldn't because you're getting so much more than your share of the of the independent films that are made over here. All right. You know, let's give some of the other festivals they're just as good. have just as many people coming to them who treat their filmmakers just as well. You know, let's give this a chance.

Alex Ferrari 17:58
Well, the magic question when you say Oscar accreditation, that's not for features. That's for shorts, right?

Chris Holland 18:03
That's correct. Yeah. No such thing as Oscar accreditation for features

Alex Ferrari 18:07
I've never seen I've never seen the winner of the Austin Film Festival up for best picture at the Oscars.

Chris Holland 18:13
No, I mean, you've seen films, the shorts laid down, of course, like Slumdog Millionaire, Wade,

Alex Ferrari 18:20
Little Miss Sunshine. Yeah. All those kind of films got it. Now, how do you leverage Film Festival screenings to help you get film your film distributed?

Chris Holland 18:30
Uh, there are a couple that are different things you can do, depending on who you are, and what you've got. I mean, number one, if you're playing in a major film festivals festival, and you're a feature, distributors are going to come to you. So that's, I mean, number one sort of mission accomplished right off the bat, you're putting your film in front of distributors. But if you're at a smaller festival, or a festival, where the distributors don't seem to be coming out of the woodwork to find you, I would use that opportunity to start building your audience and start collecting the names and email addresses of the people who are your fans who love your film. There was a film called it was by the Yes, men. Yes. And it was out by Southwest. Yeah. What was the name of that film?

Alex Ferrari 19:21
It was the one that was called the Yes Men, which was a documentary.

Chris Holland 19:25
It was called something like everybody hates the Yes, man. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 19:27
that was a sequel the I only saw the original one. But yeah, there's a sequel to it. Right?

Chris Holland 19:31
So you know, the these guys. It's a couple of performance artists, basically with a team of people around them. They played the sequel at South by Southwest. And this was I want to say six, seven years ago, literally had clipboards with signup sheets and in this 1400 seat, movie palace, they passed around clipboards and pens and got people to you know, sign up. Now that's an activist film where people are, you know, natural. inclined to want to be a part of what they're doing. But that's something you can do at any festival. You know, it's it's extremely difficult as a filmmaker with no existing audience to collect 300 signatures or 300 email addresses in one go on the internet. But at a film festival, well those people are sitting, you know, in the audience, they've just seen your film and are in love with you. It's really easy. So that's the kind of thing that distributors are looking for when you approach them. And you say, I know the names and email addresses of, you know, 2000 people that I've collected over the last year of being on the film festival circuit who are interested in this movie and will tell their friends if you can say that to a distributor your head and shoulders above pretty much anybody else? You know, approaching distributors because they don't think ahead to do that kind of thing.

Alex Ferrari 20:53
Yeah, distributors, I mean, they want as easy of a ride to make their money as possible. And if you can provide them with you know, a three or 4000 person list of people for your film, you're going to get a distribution deal so much faster. That's why a lot of these YouTube stars are creating their own projects and not even going to distributors distributing themselves. Okay, that brings me to a question. Can you talk a little bit about like, screw you know, if your internet if your movies on Vimeo or on YouTube and, you know, gets disqualified from film festivals? I know, that was a big thing when the internet first came out, is that still a thing? And how does that work?

Chris Holland 21:30
It's definitely still a thing. By and large, it's boy Howdy, is it still a thing with Oscar accreditation. So if you have any thoughts at all, you know, as to the future distribution, or no festival play of your film, do not make your film available publicly on YouTube, or Vimeo or any of that stuff until you've done those things. You know, a lot of people will tell you, it doesn't matter. And festivals are taking these things all the time. And it's true. There are a lot of festivals out there that are taking films that are available online. And that's totally cool of those festivals. But there's a lot of festivals that still aren't, and if you you know, unless you want to instantly cut your possible selection of film festivals in half, you know, just hold off on putting it online and and keep control of your assets. Because you don't want your editor or whatever. To mistakenly think that that's an okay thing to do.

Alex Ferrari 22:34
I have a crazy story of of one Sundance filmmaker who got into Sundance had a feature film. And he was in he was in competition. And I think a producer his put it out, it was on Vimeo with password. But he either accidentally or on purpose. pulled off the password for a day or two. And Sundance caught wind of it how I don't know, but they disqualified him and kick them out. And I'm sure that that boys still somewhere in a mental institution. Probably I mean, can you imagine Can you imagine?

Chris Holland 23:10
Oh, I would love to know like the real details behind that. Because you know, for a day or two that seems like something Sundance might forgive. But yeah, without knowing the specifics, you just shake your head and go. That's sucks dude.

Alex Ferrari 23:25
That's so well let me ask you. What are some of the craziest stories? you've you've been to a lot of film festival? What's some of the craziest stories you've ever heard?

Chris Holland 23:33
craziest stories I've ever heard? Well, I mean, some of the craziest stories I've ever seen. You know, filmmakers will do all kinds of things to promote their films sometimes at my urging. Friend of mine had a film called the Stanton family grave robbery. It sounds fantastic guy named Mark Potts, and I'll tell the story, but I want to go back to that title. And just the title is awesome, actually. So as part of the sort of promotion for his film, he and his like three or four cohorts who were at this was at the Austin Film Festival, they bought a coffin and carried it around with them and the coffin had like flyers taped to the side of it. Absolutely. When the screenings were and you know, it was it was it was this it was this Austin Film Fest. Oh, Jesus. And I know they did a couple basically anywhere they could drive to and shove this coffin in the back of the station wagon. They were ridiculous.

Alex Ferrari 24:38
I was gonna ask you where are they? How are they driving this around? Did they rent a hearse?

Chris Holland 24:42
They just had a station wagon Okay, or a hatchback or something it was you know, full size coffin to I'm sure. I've been thinking they might have bought out like a child size but

Alex Ferrari 24:51
Okay, that's just Yeah, I was about to say that's just, that's just wrong. And it

Chris Holland 24:58
didn't work. Yeah. I mean that definitely got attention I still have photos of you know that that surface every once in a while these guys with their stinking coffin and I wanted to go back to the title because titling of a film is something that I think filmmakers overlook as an opportunity to stand out yep it's so many people will name their film you know very generic phrases that sort of seem profound in the moment but actually make your film very difficult to remember much less find on the internet

Alex Ferrari 25:33
like like the tree right? I don't even know if that's a movie or not but the the chair worked and No, that wasn't even the chair what was that movie the fuzzy chair the

Chris Holland 25:43
Oh the Oh yeah, the comfy chair comfy chair. But that was your your puffy

Alex Ferrari 25:48
puffy chairs a better title than just the chair.

Chris Holland 25:50
Right? But yet, these very generic phrases that that's something that Hollywood does, because they are going to carpet bomb the world with advertising and you know the shorter something is the better in that scenario. But in this scenario where you have to be different because you don't have the ability to carpet bomb, whatever it is, then you really want to go with something memorable and I suggest stringing together two or three words that aren't ordinarily paired with one another so you know coffee with milk is not a good example because everybody uses that phrase right?

Alex Ferrari 26:34
Unless Brad Pitt's the star and then you okay,

Chris Holland 26:37
but the Stanton family grave robbery which has you know, a proper name a proper noun right and yeah, what the heck is a family grave robbery I gotta see that or that is attention. Nobody else is using that phrase anywhere on the internet. So yeah, exactly. instantly be able to find that on the internet once once you've got the night yeah, I'm

Alex Ferrari 27:02
actually consulting on a feature film right now. And they came to me they're like, you know, we can't get into festivals and you know what's going on? What can you help us with? And I looked at the movie I was like, well first thing you got to change that title. It was just such a generic title that created no excitement whatsoever. And I'm like, you've got to change that title. And they're like, Oh, well we've done this this this on it already. I'm like, Well, if you want to sell it, you got to change the title. If not, you'll never sell it. So we're working on new titles for it as well. And I worked on a film A Sundance winner called up solidia which was a great title because it's like what is up solidia and the second anyone type that word in there the number one ranking and they actually said that like it was a greatest move we ever did because we control Google for that title. So Exactly. titles are very very very important. Any any crazy like after our stores because I have a few of those after hours on a film festival

Chris Holland 27:59
after it Well, I mean, you want to go to a festival that's got crazy after our stuff going on. Go to some festivals in Texas but like small town, Texas, the Marfa Film Festival was a few years back but Martha's in a town or Marfa is a town in Far West Texas to get there you basically have to fly into Austin and then drive six hours. Do West

Alex Ferrari 28:28
Yeah, Texas is big man.

Chris Holland 28:29
It's really it's a big place. But once you get there the first thing you notice is that there's no traffic noise there's just no city noise of any kind so it's eerily silent. Which of course when you're out in the middle of nowhere with nobody to tell you not to do crazy shit that's you know exactly when crazy, crazy stuff goes on. Right? Right. Especially when you have a bunch of filmmakers and you know festival people from other festivals in Texas who you know have done their events for the year and just kind of want to let go a little bit. You know, that it provides a lot of opportunity for letting your hair down, shall we say and Marfa is a you know, an artist commune. There's a lot of people who have been there for many, many years who have been smoking many, many joints. There's a lot of there's more opportunity when you would think to get into trouble and a town like that. I just love Marfa. Anyway, like their theater is this wonderful little sort of converted, it's a converted bead store. You can't write this stuff. And I have a have a picture maybe I'll send it to you so you can include it in the show notes but it's just this beautiful little wooden see converted feed store but the edge of the feed store is literally 20 feet from the train tracks.

Alex Ferrari 29:57
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Chris Holland 30:08
So you'll be sitting there watching a movie. And then for about five minutes every hour or so you'll hear the train just whizzed by. It's like, not the greatest environment for like, not a, you know, controlled theater environment. But it sort of gives it that character, that bit of authenticity that makes it a very memorable festival to visit.

Alex Ferrari 30:32
So can I tell you can I tell you one of my crazy Sundance stories you obviously want to I have, I have to I am the host of the show, I have to tell you, no, I think you'll get a kick out of it. So back in the back in the day, I don't know if you remember, I'm sure you've been to Sundance a bunch of times, they used to have a lot of big, big house parties up in the hills, like, these big they rent out the mansions and they would just have these crazy house parties. And I don't know if they do it as much now because I think the resident started complaining so I'm not sure if they do as much anymore. But when I was there, me and my buddy, were just like, okay, let's, let's see if we can crash this party, all we would do is crash parties left and right at Sundance, and this one party was up in the middle of the hill, just a monstrous I mean, ridiculous mansion, wooden mansion. You know, like a log cabin there. And you know, there's there's security, there's, you know, there's a line to get into the list to see if you can get in. And I earlier that day had spoken to an agent from CIA. And when I got up to the front, like, Who are you? I'm like, Oh, I'm so and so from CIA. And they're like, we'll go right on insert. right in and all of us and then my buddy who's like, I'm just gonna try to sneak around the back. But I was smart enough to go Wait, let me let me just do this. So he jumped like five fences, broke through a window all the way in to get in and fight and like someone was smoking a joint in the back, or having sex in the back or something. He's like, excuse me, just walked right by. And then we're inside. And there's celebrities everywhere. I mean, all the movie stars of the day where they're and where I'm from. I was in from Florida. It was like my first Sundance, I was so excited. And then five minutes later the cops came because someone pulled the fire alarm. Oh, that's like son of but that was a and then we couldn't and then we couldn't and then we couldn't get a ride back. So we actually jumped into a limo with some celebrities and he was back it's it's a fun festival.

Chris Holland 32:35
That's a rough life you lead there, sir. Well,

Alex Ferrari 32:37
I wish it was like that every day sir. But it's not it's not it's not sir no at the at the indie film, hustle. There's a term we call hustling and we hustled to get into the party and hustled to get down to this town. But that doesn't happen every day. Not every day. Alright, so back to back to back to back to business. What are some of the reasons why films get rejected from film festivals? Because I know a lot of filmmakers are so pained when they're rejected, myself included. So what are some of the main reasons that they reject them?

Chris Holland 33:07
Well, I mean, there's the one reason that nobody wants to hear. And that that is your film just doesn't stack up against other films. There are lots and lots of really good films that don't get into festivals, because it's not enough to be really good anymore. You have to be great. And that's not to say that if you have a really good film, it won't go anywhere. But you definitely need to pick your phone up, pick your battles, you're not going to get into Tribeca, or Sundance or whatever with a really good film. Some really good films do but the numbers are just stacked against you so incredibly. Other reasons I mean, there are more reasons not to get selected that have nothing to do with the quality of your film. Then Then simply the quality of your film, like I put in mind of something that Dan Brawley from the cucalorus Film Festival said, at South by Southwest during a meeting of festival programmers are a couple of filmmakers in the room and they're like, you know, I'm just confused as to why my film didn't get into festivals. And Dan said, you know, for you to get offended that you didn't get into my film festival would be akin to you walking into the grocery store, buying things you need walking out and and saying everything that I didn't buy in the grocery store is garbage. Right? Because that wasn't stuff I selected. It's all garbage. They you know, you just you can't buy everything. You can't eat everything. That's a great analogy, right? So you just have to leave some things behind because there's only so much room in your shopping cart, I guess is the and what that shopping cart looks like is different for every festival. Every festival has an audience to satisfy. And you know, I think this goes back to sort of standard Film Festival economics, film festivals, serve an audience, that audience is not filmmakers, that audience is the people who live in their town or who come to their town to see the movies. Those people, although they buy tickets, or passes or whatever, those people are not really the customer, either. They're the audience, but they're not the customer. The customer is the sponsors, the sponsors, and the people who pay grants. Those are the actual customers because the bulk of the money comes from them. And what do they want, they want a full house, they want to see an event that has, you know, every single seat filled for every single thing. And the better you can do that better you can serve that audience, the more likely you are to get more money from the sponsors. Okay? So knowing this, you have to pick your films. With that in mind, you have to know what the festival reacted well to in the previous years, and what they didn't, so that you don't make the same mistakes over and over again, you can have the best film about, you know, gay cowboys in love. But if your audience hates gay cowboys in love, you are not going to get into that film. You know, sometimes I struggle to come up with examples about

Alex Ferrari 36:17
well, that movie that that movie, that movie won the Oscar. So did

Chris Holland 36:22
I know I'm sure there were film festivals that that film did not get into. So yeah, you know, don't take offense at your film, not getting in a foul festivals don't think it means that you suck. That is sort of the number one trap that filmmakers fall into, is either they get angry and offended. Because you know, and assume the film festivals just don't know what they're doing. Or they didn't watch the film. Right, which is that's utter garbage. Or they think that they're doing something wrong. They might be, but it's not automatically that. Okay, so reasons to get rejected from film festivals. No, to long, bad subjects. I think audio issues are always the big one, right? A lot of people get will sense that something is wrong with a film without knowing what's wrong with it. They don't know why the film's annoying them. And that's very often because the audio is bad, right? It doesn't call itself out. But it's really easy to see with your eyes, oh, this is out of focus, or it's just bad quality or shot poorly. But when audio is bad, you don't necessarily recognize it. And yeah, everything else is politics. Everything else is how does it serve our

Alex Ferrari 37:41
audience? Or our or our sponsors? Well,

Chris Holland 37:45
that those things are connected directly. The sponsors, you know, sometimes want artistic control, but not that often.

Alex Ferrari 37:52
Gotcha. Yeah. Now what would would you submit a work in progress, talking about quality, I know a lot of filmmakers, I deal with a lot of filmmakers that want to like, Oh, I want to submit them like work in progress or without color or with temp sound, or should you just wait?

Chris Holland 38:07
submitting a work in progress is almost always an emotional decision. It is the little voice in the back of your head that says, If I don't hit this deadline, I'm missing out on something. The truth is nine times out of 10, you're not missing out on anything. If you don't make this deadline, there's another deadline coming up or there's another festival coming up or the same festival coming up next year. You know, there's only a period of you know, six to seven months between when you know, a late deadline for a festival closes, and the early deadline for the next one opens up. That's not a lot of time. So you really don't let that little voice in the back of your head control what you do, because it's going to cost you money. And it's going to put you in competition with a lot of other films at a time when decisions have already been made. Right? Like the number of slots in the grocery cart that are available is less because you're coming into the process later, you know later on. So works in progress, you know, that are usually submitted to meet a deadline. And it's kind of a pro move right? festival programmers can see beyond your, you know, your imperfect color or sound and then see the story. They're like they've seen enough works in progress, they know can sort of tell what a film's going to look like. But if you are an unknown quantity, it's your first or second time doing the film festival thing. And you don't really know what you're doing, you know, it puts your film at a disadvantage. Why take that chance, right?

Alex Ferrari 39:49
No. And can we talk a little bit about Sundance because that is the mecca of all film festivals for a lot of independent filmmakers and everyone kills themselves. I mean every year when the deadlines coming I get slammed with we got to make the Sundance, I need to make blu rays. I need to make this I need to get this and it's like everyone kills themselves to try to get that that deadline. Can you talk a little bit about the mystique? The the mythos that is Sundance and how what the realities are of submitting to Sundance. And should they should everyone submit the Sundance is like that lottery ticket, maybe we'll get in? Or should they be more strategic on what works best for their film.

Chris Holland 40:31
I never discourage someone from submitting to Sundance. Because if you don't submit to Sundance, you have that little thing in the back of your head that says, oh, but what if, you know, some people can ignore that some people just go, you know what I know, I don't have a shot at Sundance, and that's okay. If you have that kind of confidence, then God bless, save yourself, the 50 bucks and or $90, or whatever it is the late deadline and move on with your life. But if you know yourself well enough to know, Oh, God, I will just always think, you know, what is? What would have happened if I had submitted to that festival, then by all means, submit? What are your chances realistically of actually getting into the Sundance Film Festival? Every year I used to, and I haven't done this in a few years. But I used to calculate out, you know, given the number of screening slots, and given the number of films that got submitted that year, what roughly was your chance of getting into the film festival? And it was always like, point oh, 3% or something. It was some ridiculous,

Alex Ferrari 41:35
there's 13 there's like was a 13 competition films or something like that? And Sundance?

Chris Holland 41:40
Well, that that matters less than that, you know, because you can't break it down like that. The numbers you'd have to have access to would be crazy. And oh, we could do that. Got it. Yeah. But if you break it down roughly to number of films, or even number of shorts versus number of features, you know, it doesn't take you very long before you get down to less than 1% chance of getting into that festival. Right? Compare that to other festivals where there are 200 slots and 5000 films are being submitted or even like 200 slots and 1000 Films 1000 films, right, your chances get a lot better. So you know, that's one of the reasons that I say avoid those Oscar qualifying festivals because just the sheer math improves, right and I am 10 times more likely to get into festival a than festival B, simply because I know this one fact about how many submissions they get. That's crazy talk, you know, you should absolutely be thinking in those terms. like crazy good talk rather. So yeah. submit this way thinks Sundance is worth it. Yes, please do submit, submit the best copy version, whatever of your film that you possibly can send it into the ether and you know, give it a kiss goodbye, and then move on with your life. Maybe you'll hit the lottery, maybe you won't. There are plenty of deserving and undeserving films that got into Sundance and had their lives changed. Don't Rob yourself of that possibility. If you think there's even a chance you've got no, got that chance. But don't be surprised when you get the dear john letter.

Alex Ferrari 43:15
Well, I mean, a perfect example is that film I was telling you about opsin Lydia, that was a late entry, no star no connection submission with which was color graded. But I think the sound was not done. So it was a work in progress. And they literally dropped it off the last day physically dropped it off in the Sundance office here in LA. And they were one of the 13 competition and won two awards. So it happens but it was but that movie fit of very specific hole in that shopping cart. That was perfect for it was just like that. a year earlier. That movie doesn't get in a year later that movie doesn't get in. But that year, it just happened to make it in. So yeah,

Chris Holland 43:54
that's the kind of lightning in a bottle thing. Yeah, that that does happen and what what makes Sundance so awesome. That speaks to the quality of their programming that they you know, a lot of festivals wouldn't given those kinds of numbers wouldn't have been able to catch that film that late in the year in the submissions process. A couple of screeners would have watched it, they would have given it high marks and you know, somewhere in between the that rush of whatever, you know, the programming team might or might not have been able to look at those scores and give it that chance. Some of the things that you mentioned in that story, though, you know, the fact that there were no stars, the fact that there were no connections, you know, that calls to, you know, to, to the to the attention, the idea that you have to have name actors in your film to get into Sundance or that you have to know someone on the inside. You don't. Sundance has a very vested interest in discovering new talent. They need to be seen as the ones who plucked that filmmaker from obscurity because they made great art. And you know, made something out of them by the very power of the prestige, that is Sundance, they have that reputation to maintain. So they are on the lookout for you, I promise. You know, if you've got what it takes, they will find you.

Alex Ferrari 45:16
I mean, how many how many careers have they launched? I mean, precise. I mean, just it just ever. I mean, the list is insane. Now can

Chris Holland 45:24
you write when I hear filmmakers say, Oh, they didn't even watch my film. And you know, and I realize this makes me seem like an incredible snob and very derisive. But I hear this a lot. And it does, you know, credit to say, I can't get into Sundance, because I don't know anyone there. And I don't have any name actors in my film. That that is that's, you know, selling yourself short, and selling them short. End of rant.

Alex Ferrari 45:50
But with that said, though, having star power, maybe not for Sundance, but for a lot of other festivals does help in the submission process, because at the end of the day, they want acids and seeds. And can you talk a little bit about that? Do you agree with that statement?

Chris Holland 46:04
Of course, I agree with that statement. You know, I mean, if you could have Brad Pitt on your course. Would right?

Alex Ferrari 46:11
Absolutely not Chris, I am loyal to the bone, sir.

Chris Holland 46:17
The simple fact is

Alex Ferrari 46:18
so I mean to cut you off Mr. Pitts, calling me now I gotta go.

Chris Holland 46:22
And the horse you rode in on? Yes, stars, put butts in seats, but they're, you know, some percentage of slots at any given festival that are dedicated to those things. Those are the opening night and closing night and centerpiece films. And they serve a very specific purpose. But you're not competing with those films. Those films generally don't get submitted to festivals, those films, particularly the ones with a list actors, I mean, if you've got like a brsc named celebrities, he's been on TV a few times. Okay, yeah, some of those. But those aren't what I would call serious competition for for your your film if your film has a better story. But yeah, those films are curated from either other festivals or from the distributors who on their rights, they come through a completely different channel than the open calls for entry. And so don't resent those films, Be glad those films are there, because they're paying for you the slot that you're occupying. Because, you know, depending on how things go, a lot of the smaller indie films don't draw as big of an audience and you've got a half empty theater. And you know, that screening cost just as much to put on as the the one that was 100% fall. So in a lot of ways they're paying the rent, for you know, your opportunity.

Alex Ferrari 47:49
That's a great way of looking at it. And can you talk a little bit about first tier and second tier film festivals, and a lot of people have heard those terms? What it Can you explain it a little bit.

Chris Holland 47:58
So you can look at tears one of two ways. Either you can look at tears objectively, like Sundance is a first tier Film Festival, no, no bones about it, right? Or you can look at them from a perspective of at what tier is this festival relative to my film, if you have a science fiction film, right, then a festival like fantastic fast or Fantasia or something like that, that's going to be a first tier fest for you, right? That's going to bring you the audience and the prestige and you know, everything that you want from a festival. So that's like your first tier targets. Those might not be first tier festivals on the objective scale. Nobody's gonna say that fantastic. Fast is as prestigious as Sundance in any other context. But you know, so those are the, when I talk about tiers, that's sort of what I what I mean by those two things. What makes a tier one fast versus a tier two fast? It's a combination of factors from audience size, number of films, they're able to program number, you know how much money they have, whether they're Oscar accredited or not. Who their backers are, right, Robert Redford and Robert De Niro bring a lot of cachet to the festivals that they underwrite. So there's a lot of different factors there. It's it's not like there's any industry standard. There's nobody setting down the canonical. These festivals are tier one or tier two. And this is you know, how she'll be forevermore. But those distinctions do exist.

Alex Ferrari 49:39
Yeah, exactly. Like if you have a horror movie in screamfest is going to be on the top of that list or a horror or you know, one of the top horror film festivals are going to be much higher than let's say Sundance.

Chris Holland 49:50
Yeah, possibly. I mean, so Sundance has its own Midnight's thing. Yeah, yeah, they're they're gonna absorb as many genres as they can, because they they want you know, the Stage of having found those things to again, go ahead and submit your film to Sundance, it's okay, but know that that scream fest or Shrek fest or whoever it is what will also be there for you.

Alex Ferrari 50:10
So these, these last few questions are the ones I ask of all of my all of my guests are so prepare yourself these are the toughest of all the questions.

Chris Holland 50:18
Well, having never listened to your podcast before I am taken totally unaware.

Alex Ferrari 50:23
To say, sir, to say, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life.

Chris Holland 50:31
So the lesson that I keep learning every day, and sort of took the longest to crystallize in my mind was that, you know, while I would not call them festivals in industry, it is a business and there's an economy to everything. What you are doing when you put your film into the into the world into the film festival world is you are hoping to attract a customer you're hoping to make a sale, there's a transaction happening, and you have something of value to offer in that transaction. And that thing is your film, right you by way of your film are delivering, hoping to help the festival attract an audience. And that's what the festival wants from you. The festival has an array of things that are of value to you, primarily a slot in the festival itself. But lots of other stuff that goes along with that. So depending on how high the value of your film is, you can use that leverage to, you know, barter or bargain for other things that the festival has a value that to give you such as a better time slot, or help with your travel or in some extreme cases, even a screening fee. And again, that all depends on how high the value of your film is to what you can negotiate for but never forget that it is an economy and you have the power to negotiate. If you are aware that negotiating is an option.

Alex Ferrari 52:09
Good to know very good to know now what are your top three favorite films of all time?

Chris Holland 52:14
Let's see. In no particular order, because they all hold the same place in my heart. The apartments with jack Lemmon Shirley MacLaine singing in the rain, okay, and Joe versus the volcano

Alex Ferrari 52:30
Oh, I freakin love Joe versus the volcano and that was such an underrated and I was my next question is wasn't one of the most underrated films of all that you've ever seen. I think

Chris Holland 52:38
Joe versus the volcano

Alex Ferrari 52:40
Yeah, no question about it. If everybody out there listening go find Joe versus the volcano starts Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan. And it was a brilliant, misunderstood movie when it was released. I remember seeing it in the theater. Nobody got it. Only years later that it start becoming a cult, a cult movie that people just love.

Chris Holland 53:01
Just hit iTunes like a year or two ago. It was not on iTunes for the longest time. So is now part of my iTunes library. If I were going to answer that question with the film, it's not my top three I would say Steve Martin's la story.

Alex Ferrari 53:15
Oh, I love this story. I remember that's another one. That was another one that people just did not get only people in LA got that move.

Chris Holland 53:22
Yeah, I mean, it's brilliant and has a lot of people in it. Who were not much of it like so many emerging stars.

Alex Ferrari 53:29
So Michelle, Sarah Michelle. navasana. Michelle, Sarah Jessica Parker. Yep, it was one of them. I remember off the top of my head. I haven't seen

Chris Holland 53:36
A lot of a lot of character actors. Yeah, definitely worth a look.

Alex Ferrari 53:39
So where can people find you and I heard you had a little something special for the the indie film hustle tribe.

Chris Holland 53:45
I do. If the tribe will direct their web browsers to film festival secrets.com slash hustle. And hopefully everybody who's listening to this knows how to spell hustle. You will find a downloadable list of my top festivals for hustlers you heard me say earlier that you know the Oscar accredited festivals are maybe not your best targets. This is a list of festivals that maybe lesser known but still incredibly excellent. And I've got some shorts. I've got some features and I even have some for some of the genres out there like LGBTQ and sci fi and stuff like that.

Alex Ferrari 54:30
Awesome. Awesome. And so and then where can people find you other than that? Well, there's

Chris Holland 54:35
Film Festival secrets calm obviously. There is a podcast on which a certain Mr. Ferrari might have been a guest recently. So if you search for the film festival secrets podcast on iTunes or your favorite pod catcher, you can find me there. I'm on Twitter at Film Fest secrets. And you can find me at film festivals. You know sometimes I speak In in person live at film festivals you can find me there.

Alex Ferrari 55:05
And if I'm not mistaken you were just named one of the top five filmmaking podcasts by Movie Maker magazine. Am I correct?

Chris Holland 55:12
Yep, I am an essential podcasts as Movie Maker.

Alex Ferrari 55:16
And I'm not I'm not bitter. I'm not bitter for not making the list. I'm just saying I'm not bitter at all.

Chris Holland 55:20
That's okay. I wouldn't be bitter if I were you.

Alex Ferrari 55:24
And you also wrote a book.

Chris Holland 55:27
I did write a book, Second Edition of Film Festival secrets you'll see a theme emerging here as I say Film Festival secrets a handbook for independent filmmakers. If you go to film festival secrets calm slash resources, you can order these preorder the second edition which will be out in mid April, I believe. And you can get the first edition for free when you do the pre order.

Alex Ferrari 55:53
Chris, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to the tribe. I really appreciate all the the knowledge bombs you dropped on us today for Film Festival. So thanks again for taking the time man.

Chris Holland 56:04
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Alex Ferrari 56:07
And film festivals can be a field of landmines. If you're not careful, there's a lot of things that you need to kind of know before you go into it. And a lot of times you just have to learn that the hard way but by using by going visiting Chris at his website at Film Festival secrets calm or getting our course Film Festival hacks that really helps you out a lot and kind of I mean, a little bit of investment right up front will save you 1000s of dollars later I wish I would have had that course before I started my my film festival runs with all my my projects and believe it like I said before, I lost a ton of cash doing that so and also what me and Chris kind of put together is we've put together a free podcast series, all about film festivals, we're gonna do an eight episode run. And if it really does, well, we might do another another season but for the first season, we're gonna do eight episodes, and it will be called the film festival hacks podcast. And we will put a link in the show notes when it launches, they won't launch probably for about at least another week or two. But when it launches, you can come back here and check it out at indiefilmhustle.com/067 is the show notes and you can find the link there. Now as promised, I am going to be giving you guys a link for 50% off our course the film festival hacks. It's an online course you can take on line you can put it on your iPhone, watch it anytime you like. The link is indie film, hustle comm forward slash festival hacks 50 that's indiefilmhustle.com/festivalhacks50. Now this will be for a limited time only, we may only have it up for a couple of weeks. So I would jump on it as fast as possible because after that, it goes back up to the normal price of 50 bucks. But it will be 25 bucks, which is an insane deal for this kind of course. So check it out. I wanted to let you guys know that we have a indie film hustle community on Facebook. It's a private, private group that I've put together and we have over 4200 now members in it and you can head over to indiefilmhustle.com/Facebook and sign up. We do a lot of talking there. We help each other out. We show each other's work. And we just kind of start you know, communicating and helping each other out there. So that's what the community in the group is all about. So it's at indiefilmhustle.com/Facebook. Thanks again for listening guys. I hope you got a lot out of this episode. And keep the hustle going. Keep that dream alive. And I will talk to you soon.

SHORTCODE - FILM FEST

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